Charles Taylor: Pat Robertson Was My Man in Washington

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
US News • Mon Feb 8, 2010 at 6:08 pm PST • Views: 632

Testifying at his war crimes trial in the Hague last week, former Liberian President Charles Taylor said (paraphrasing), “Pat Robertson was my man in Washington.”

The revelations came in the midst of a U.N.-backed trial of Taylor at The Hague on 11 counts of war crimes and crimes against humanity during Sierra Leone’s 1990s civil war. Taylor is accused of directing a Sierra Leone rebel group, the United Revolutionary Front (RUF), in a campaign aimed at securing access to the country’s diamond mines. The rebel movement stands accused of committing mass atrocities in the late 1990s in the West African country, including the mutilation of thousands of civilians.

The international prosecutors contend that Taylor offered concessions to Western individuals in exchange for lobbying work aimed at enhancing his image in the United States. The prosecution maintains that Taylor also spent $2.6 million on lobbying firms and public relations outfits in the hopes of influencing the policies of former President Bill Clinton and George W. Bush.

Under cross-examination, Taylor said that Robertson had volunteered to make Liberia’s case before U.S. administration officials, and had spoken directly to President Bush about Taylor. He also confirmed that Robertson’s company, Freedom Gold Limited, signed an agreement to exploit gold in southeastern Liberia, but that it never generated any profit.

“Mr. Taylor, indeed at one point you said that you can count on Pat Robertson to get Washington on your side,” he was asked by the lead prosecution counsel, Col. Brenda Hollis, a former U.S. Air Force officer. Taylor replied: “I don’t recall the exact words, but something to that effect.”

A spokesman for Robertson, Chris Roslan, confirmed that Robertson was awarded a gold exploration concession by the Liberian government during the 1990s. But he said that there was “no quid pro quo” to provide the government with anything in return. Roslan said the company, Freedom Gold, is no longer in operation and has never found any gold.

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1098 comments

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1 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:13:17pm

Oh my. Dirty dirty greed. Not very Christian of good Pat.

2 armylaw  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:13:52pm

Not to defend Robertson, but is there evidence beyond the word of Charles Taylor implicating Pat Robertson?

3 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:16:00pm

Thats why he sent me that email about refining some african gold, if i would just send a check for $500 first!
///

4 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:16:40pm

re: The prosecution maintains that Taylor also spent $2.6 million on lobbying firms and public relations outfits in the hopes of influencing the policies of former President Bill Clinton and George W. Bush.

I know this is abstract, but but the idea of connecting lobbying & PR with war crimes is kinda fascinating...

5 keloyd  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:16:46pm

I;ve seen clips of Pat Robertson's show with Charles Taylor, iirc. Also, when he was fighting to stay president a few years back, I remember seeing Robertson lobbying on his behalf. I'm taking the word of the brutal dictator for now.

6 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:18:18pm

re: #2 armylaw

Not to defend Robertson, but is there evidence beyond the word of Charles Taylor implicating Pat Robertson?

If true, there will be a paper/email trail.

7 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:18:58pm

The Taylor connection has been known since 1999.

Taylor and Pat Robertson

According to a 2 June 1999, article in The Virginian-Pilot,[35] Taylor had extensive business dealings with American televangelist Pat Robertson. According to the article, Taylor gave Robertson (who also had business dealings with dictator Mobutu Sese Seko of Zaire) the rights to mine for diamonds in Liberia's mineral-rich countryside. According to two Operation Blessing pilots who reported this incident to the Commonwealth of Virginia for investigation in 1994, Robertson used his Operation Blessing planes to haul diamond-mining equipment to Robertson's mines in Liberia, despite the fact that Robertson was telling his 700 Club viewers that the planes were sending relief supplies to the victims of the genocide in Rwanda. The subsequent investigation by the Commonwealth of Virginia concluded that Robertson diverted his ministry's donations to the Liberian diamond-mining operation, but Attorney General of Virginia Mark Earley blocked any potential prosecution against Robertson, as the relief supplies were also sent.

8 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:21:30pm

filth...Robertson is filth, his holiness was just a cover for his greed

9 Girth  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:21:30pm

re: #2 armylaw

Not to defend Robertson, but is there evidence beyond the word of Charles Taylor implicating Pat Robertson?

Who to believe, the vicious dictator or the religious con-man?

10 armylaw  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:21:55pm

re: #7 Charles

Thanks. Puts this in context.

11 jaunte  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:22:53pm

Just in case anyone has forgotten:


Pat Robertson's Gold
(Washington Post; Saturday, September 22, 2001)
Last week's terrorist attacks brought out the worst in televangelists Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. Three days after hijacked jetliners slammed into the Pentagon, the World Trade Center and the Pennsylvania countryside, Robertson posted a statement on his Christian Broadcast Network (CBN) Web site announcing that pornography, rampant secularism, the occult, abortion, the absence of prayer in schools and insults of God "at the highest level of our government" had sent the Almighty over the edge. America was attacked, Robertson asserted, "because God Almighty is lifting His protection from us."

...in May 1999, Robertson, through Freedom Gold Limited, an offshore company registered in the Cayman Islands but based at CBN headquarters in Virginia Beach, signed an agreement with Taylor and key cabinet members allowing the for-profit Freedom Gold to explore and receive mining rights in southeastern Liberia, where gold is believed to be in the ground.
[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

.

12 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:22:59pm

Here is a column from the WaPo in 2001, talking about Robertson's connections with Taylor via the Freedom Gold company:

in May 1999, Robertson, through Freedom Gold Limited, an offshore company registered in the Cayman Islands but based at CBN headquarters in Virginia Beach, signed an agreement with Taylor and key cabinet members allowing the for-profit Freedom Gold to explore and receive mining rights in southeastern Liberia, where gold is believed to be in the ground.

It's a great deal for Liberia, which is now an economic basket case thanks to the long civil war and Taylor's corruption. It's also good for Freedom Gold, which was formed by Robertson in 1998. Liberia -- and for all practical purposes we're talking Taylor -- gains 10 percent ownership of Freedom Gold.

As The Post's Douglas Farah reported in January, huge amounts of the country's funds have been siphoned off by a small group of Taylor's associates and relatives. Taylor "has his hand in everything and gets a cut of everything," a businessman told The Post. Other Liberians, probably Taylor's gang, are entitled to buy at least 15 percent of Freedom Gold's shares after the exploration period.

h/t Gus802, who first brought this column to my attention. Many more posts with links here by Gus on the subject, btw.

13 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:23:54pm

re: #11 jaunte

I'd like the Almighty to protect us all from Pat Robertson and his ilk...

Evening lizards..

14 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:24:20pm

re: #9 Girth

Who to believe, the vicious dictator or the religious con-man?

drag his pious ass over there and put him on the stand...let him explain himself

15 teleskiguy  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:24:47pm

Frank Zappa was right about televangelists!

16 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:26:13pm

Wow, I guess this adds a new dimension to the gold bugs. I wonder what Glenn Beck is up to these days.

17 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:26:58pm

re: #16 Killgore Trout

Wow, I guess this adds a new dimension to the gold bugs. I wonder what Glenn Beck is up to these days.

Adds a new dimension to "pact with the Devil".

18 Lateralis  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:27:26pm

re: #16 Killgore Trout

Medved even took a blast at Beck today.

19 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:27:52pm

US News Report from 2001:

Pat Robertson's tie to Charles Taylor is based on a financial connection. In 1999 Robertson's Freedom Gold company signed a deal to mine an area in southeastern Liberia. The Liberian government, i.e. Taylor, has a 10 percent interest in Freedom Gold. "I pray that this investment may become a wonderful blessing to the people of Liberia," Robertson said in a press release. More likely the government's 10 percent share will go to maintain Taylor's of the Sierra Leone diamond trade–and its big customer, al Qaeda.

20 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:28:17pm

re: #13 PT Barnum

I'd like the Almighty to protect us all from Pat Robertson and his ilk...

Evening lizards..

worshipping God is big business...really big

21 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:28:42pm

re: #17 Decatur Deb

Adds a new dimension to "pact with the Devil".

That pact with the devil includes the Moonies who run Robertson's Liberty university and employed folks like RS McCain at the Washington Times. Tea Party!

22 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:29:54pm

re: #18 Lateralis

Medved even took a blast at Beck today.

He won't make any headway. Breitbart is battling the Birthers but nobody's serious about getting the nuts out of conservative politics.

23 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:30:19pm

re: #20 albusteve

worshipping God is big business...really big

Guys like Pat Robertson claim to be non-denominational, but they really just like 50s and 100s

24 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:30:57pm

re: #22 Killgore Trout

He won't make any headway. Breitbart is battling the Birthers but nobody's serious about getting the nuts out of conservative politics.

Brietbart is hardly battling the birthers, really, given that he wants to replace their obsession with the nirth certifikat with an obsession with obtaining Obama's SAT scores.

25 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:31:11pm

re: #22 Killgore Trout

It's just different flavors of nuts complaining about the other nuts particular brand of nuttiness, rather than being anti-nut in general.

Nuts!

26 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:32:22pm

re: #22 Killgore Trout

He won't make any headway. Breitbart is battling the Birthers but nobody's serious about getting the nuts out of conservative politics.

conversely, conservatives are leaving politics behind...I am an Army of One!...hahaha!

27 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:32:46pm

I am just too angry to respond. I just typed & removed in preview a post that might have gotten me in real trouble here. Suffice to say a religious man abusing the honor and his flock is a literally damnable violation to me.

28 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:33:32pm

re: #23 PT Barnum

Up1 and favorite.

29 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:33:49pm

re: #23 PT Barnum

Guys like Pat Robertson claim to be non-denominational, but they really just like 50s and 100s

Ben Franklin is their Prophet

30 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:33:54pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

That pact with the devil includes the Moonies who run Robertson's Liberty university and employed folks like RS McCain at the Washington Times. Tea Party!

When I start thinking about the Moonie tendrils, I want to turn myself in to the conspiracy police.

31 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:34:52pm

re: #27 Rightwingconspirator

I am just too angry to respond. I just typed & removed in preview a post that might have gotten me in real trouble here. Suffice to say a religious man abusing the honor and his flock is a literally damnable violation to me.

aw c'mon...spill it

32 Lateralis  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:35:11pm

re: #22 Killgore Trout

He won't make any headway. Breitbart is battling the Birthers but nobody's serious about getting the nuts out of conservative politics.

I am playing the middle on this and I think the fringe on both sides has way to much influence in politics. Unfortunately the fringe makes for good ratings on cable news.

33 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:35:18pm

re: #30 Decatur Deb

When I start thinking about the Moonie tendrils, I want to turn myself in to the conspiracy police.

say what you will, but those are darn fine salad bars...

34 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:35:37pm

re: #30 Decatur Deb

When I start thinking about the Moonie tendrils, I want to turn myself in to the conspiracy police.

It's really weird stuff. I have a slightly better grasp of the Birch Society but I think the Moonies are much more relevant today than most people are aware of. Spooky stuff.

35 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:35:57pm

re: #33 brookly red

say what you will, but those are darn fine salad bars...

Anyone for sushi?

36 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:36:10pm

re: #28 Rightwingconspirator

Up1 and favorite.

Why Thank You!

This gets somewhat personal for me, as my mom was a pastor in the Disciples of Christ Denomination for a long time. People who abuse the trust their congregations place in them should be flogged publicly.

37 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:36:17pm

Pat Robertson is a jackass.

38 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:36:46pm

re: #34 Killgore Trout

It's really weird stuff. I have a slightly better grasp of the Birch Society but I think the Moonies are much more relevant today than most people are aware of. Spooky stuff.

MVSmith is coming...everybody's gonna run to him

39 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:36:58pm

re: #37 cliffster

Pat Robertson is a jackass.

I would go farther than that, but I don't want to start that up all over again..:)

40 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:38:25pm

freedom from religion...$$$
we are stuck with it

41 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:38:51pm

re: #39 PT Barnum

I would go farther than that, but I don't want to start that up all over again..:)

Keep your sadistic fantasies to your self, Barnum!

42 Girth  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:39:01pm

I wonder if he can leg press his way out of this one.

43 Lateralis  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:39:34pm

re: #36 PT Barnum

Why Thank You!

This gets somewhat personal for me, as my mom was a pastor in the Disciples of Christ Denomination for a long time. People who abuse the trust their congregations place in them should be flogged publicly.

Even religious leaders are susceptible to the old adage "absolute power corrupts absolutely". I am sure when Robertson was on his way up he had people around him telling him when he was going over the cliff but know he just has his minions following him off the cliff.

44 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:39:47pm

re: #40 albusteve

freedom from religion...$$$
we are stuck with it

I am of the firm opinion that religion is more about defining what God isn't, than it is about trying to explain what God is or what He/She wants.

I've always thought theology is pretty much man made and therefore useless in explaining the infinite.

45 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:40:04pm

re: #31 albusteve

Heh. Clic your nic and you can have it offline. I do not dance with the ban hammer. I'm a firm believer and advocate for rule #4. It would be a mis-steak (nod to PT)

46 jaunte  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:40:19pm

re: #34 Killgore Trout

This site has a list of all the entities known to be closely associated with the Moonies. It's really amazing how many there are.
[Link: www.freedomofmind.com...]

47 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:40:26pm

re: #41 cliffster

Keep your sadistic fantasies to your self, Barnum!

I was thinking of washing his mouth out with soap..what were you thinking?

48 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:41:35pm

re: #44 PT Barnum

I am of the firm opinion that religion is more about defining what God isn't, than it is about trying to explain what God is or what He/She wants.

I've always thought theology is pretty much man made and therefore useless in explaining the infinite.

I find it useless in explaining anything...I'm a big Pat Condell fan

49 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:42:37pm

re: #45 Rightwingconspirator

Heh. Clic your nic and you can have it offline. I do not dance with the ban hammer. I'm a firm believer and advocate for rule #4. It would be a mis-steak (nod to PT)

okay by me...I trust your judgement

50 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:43:19pm

re: #16 Killgore Trout

Wow, I guess this adds a new dimension to the gold bugs. I wonder what Glenn Beck is up to these days.

He's crazy enough that I expect him to be out there with a pick and a shovel "GOLD I'M CRAZY ABOUT GOLD!"

51 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:43:54pm

re: #34 Killgore Trout

It's really weird stuff. I have a slightly better grasp of the Birch Society but I think the Moonies are much more relevant today than most people are aware of. Spooky stuff.

They seemed to go quiet, but were just mainstreaming their money. They are so dug into several countries that they could probably drop the religious cover with little loss.

52 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:44:10pm

These two preachers always ride their bicycles to church every Sunday and every Sunday they when they pass each other they stop and talk.

One Sunday as the one preacher is riding along, he sees the other preacher walking. He asks him, "Where's your bicycle rev?"

"Somebody stole my bicycle; I think it was somebody in my congregation, but I don't know what to do about it."

"Well, here's what you do, rev," the first preacher tells him, "You go into church today, and instead of the sermon you were going to preach, do one on the ten commandments. Then, when you get to the one about ‘Thou shalt not steal', the person who stole your bicycle will feel guilty and bring it back to you."

The other preacher thinks this is a great idea. The next Sunday the two preachers pass one another on their bicycles. They stop to talk to each other.

"I see you got your bicycle back, rev. Did you do like I said?"

"Yes, I did, but it didn't work out quite like you said."

"Oh, how's that?"

"Well, I did the sermon on the ten commandments like you said, but when I got to the one about ‘Thou shalt not commit adultery,' I remembered where I left my bicycle."

53 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:44:19pm

re: #36 PT Barnum

re: #37 cliffster

Lets get this ball rolling.

Pat Robertson is a soul-less panderer.

54 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:45:02pm

re: #45 Rightwingconspirator

Heh. Clic your nic and you can have it offline. I do not dance with the ban hammer. I'm a firm believer and advocate for rule #4. It would be a mis-steak (nod to PT)

I would like to see it too, if you don't mind...

55 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:45:05pm

re: #46 jaunte

Thanks--favorited.

56 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:45:34pm

re: #1 Stanley Sea

Oh my. Dirty dirty greed. Not very Christian of good Pat.

Thank you for not condemning all of Christianity, Stanley, and for acknowledging that this is not in line with what the Son of God stands for.

57 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:46:07pm

re: #52 PT Barnum

I got a cute (and pretty clean) nun joke for later on...

58 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:46:11pm

Pat Condell
'aggressive atheism'

59 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:46:14pm

re: #47 PT Barnum

I was thinking of washing his mouth out with soap..what were you thinking?

A good sound spanking. Go cut off a switch off the tree in the front yard, Pat. This hurts me more than it hurts you..

60 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:47:01pm

re: #54 PT Barnum

Drop me an email, I did not see yours on your blog at a glance. I gotta go we have a "blind taste test" wine class at 07:00 Champagne pop quiz I think.

61 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:47:04pm

re: #59 cliffster

A good sound spanking. Go cut off a switch off the tree in the front yard, Pat. This hurts me more than it hurts you..

And then the naughty underwear! Bad Zoot!

62 torrentprime  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:47:16pm

re: #32 Lateralis

I am playing the middle on this and I think the fringe on both sides has way to much influence in politics. Unfortunately the fringe makes for good ratings on cable news.

I posted a facebook the other day about Tancredo's longing for literacy tests - the status only referred to Tancredo and nothing else. I was accused by a friend of of believing all tea party attendees (whom I never mentioned) racist. How did my friend know this? Apparently, the fact that I had posted statements by Tancredo was proof that I didn't like and was trying to smear all tea partiers, otherwise "why would you have posted Tancredo's comments?" Got that? My posting on Tancredo is *proof* that I am out to get all tea partiers. Paranoid much?

So now, noticing that headline conservatives are saying horrific racist and homophobic things reflects badly on me. If I would just stop paying attention to them, I guess, those comments wouldn't be so offensive, now would they?

63 Irenicum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:47:32pm

re: #56 MandyManners

Indeed. It's these wolves in shepherds clothing that do more damage to the cause of Christ than any anti-theist could ever hope for. If he has any soul left he should be ashamed of himself.

64 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:47:33pm

re: #32 Lateralis

I am playing the middle on this and I think the fringe on both sides has way to much influence in politics. Unfortunately the fringe makes for good ratings on cable news.

I don't see the left fringe starting its own party with Joe Biden/Jon Edwards/Joe Liberman (what's with all the recent Democrat VPs who have names starting with "J"?) speaking at it...

65 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:48:28pm

I posted something on Facebook to the effect of :

"Why do they call it a Tea Party when it's really Chock Full O' Nuts?" but none of my usual wingnut friends seem to have noticed.

66 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:48:39pm

re: #62 torrentprime

I posted a facebook the other day about Tancredo's longing for literacy tests - the status only referred to Tancredo and nothing else. I was accused by a friend of of believing all tea party attendees (whom I never mentioned) racist. How did my friend know this? Apparently, the fact that I had posted statements by Tancredo was proof that I didn't like and was trying to smear all tea partiers, otherwise "why would you have posted Tancredo's comments?" Got that? My posting on Tancredo is *proof* that I am out to get all tea partiers. Paranoid much?

So now, noticing that headline conservatives are saying horrific racist and homophobic things reflects badly on me. If I would just stop paying attention to them, I guess, those comments wouldn't be so offensive, now would they?

Strong sign of someone who knows there's something bad amiss with the movement.

67 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:49:21pm

How much White House/Presidential access did Robertson have over the years?

68 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:50:06pm

re: #62 torrentprime

Right now, the TPs think they are in the ascendant. If you want to see paranoid politics, wait until they start obviously to collapse.

69 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:50:56pm

I think I'm beginning to understand why the only recorded instance of Christ losing his temper involved people making money off of the faith of others.

70 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:51:35pm

There was a Rabbi who went to the Catholic Priest at the church and asked "How do you get the money to make your church so beautiful?". Father said "We hear confessions; observe while I demonstrate". So the priest gets in the center compartment, the Rabbi on one side and in walks the first penitent. "It's been one week since my last confession and I have commited adultery three times". Father says "For your penance say a Hail Mary and put five dollars in the collection box and your sins will be forgiven". The next penitent walks in and says "It's been one week since my last confession and I've committed adultery three times". Father says "For your penance say a Hail Mary and put five dollars in the collection box and your sins will be forgiven". The Rabbi says, "Ooh, can I try?" So the priest and the Rabbi switch booths. In walks the next penitent. "Can I help you" says the Rabbi. The penitent says "It's been one week since my last confession and I've committed adultery two times". The Rabbi says "Go out and do it a third time; we have a special - Three for five dollars!".

71 Lateralis  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:52:04pm

re: #64 jamesfirecat

I don't see the left fringe starting its own party with Joe Biden/Jon Edwards/Joe Liberman (what's with all the recent Democrat VPs who have names starting with "J"?) speaking at it...

I am more concerned about who is influencing the party. I hardly think that at the time of Palin's nomination as VP she had much influence on the party. I still think when every thing shakes out in 2012 she will not be in the mix.

72 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:53:26pm

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Matthew 12:34

73 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:54:15pm

re: #70 PT Barnum

Another of my favorite jokes.

74 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:54:17pm

re: #46 jaunte

This site has a list of all the entities known to be closely associated with the Moonies. It's really amazing how many there are.
[Link: www.freedomofmind.com...]

Thanks for posting that.

75 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:55:09pm

re: #64 jamesfirecat

I don't see the left fringe starting its own party with Joe Biden/Jon Edwards/Joe Liberman (what's with all the recent Democrat VPs who have names starting with "J"?) speaking at it...

I think when the tea party movement started, it was 95% people pissed off about the bailout. I'm with them 100% on that. I really don't know what it is now, in the trenches, now that it's evident who is at the helm.

76 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:55:38pm

re: #63 Irenicum

Indeed. It's these wolves in shepherds clothing that do more damage to the cause of Christ than any anti-theist could ever hope for. If he has any soul left he should be ashamed of himself.

I don't believe in praying for someone else's soul but, I do wish he would SHUT THE FUCK UP.

77 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:55:43pm

re: #71 Lateralis

I am more concerned about who is influencing the party. I hardly think that at the time of Palin's nomination as VP she had much influence on the party. I still think when every thing shakes out in 2012 she will not be in the mix.

What if she's running as a Tea Party candidate?

78 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:56:15pm

You want to see something really scary go to the website of the Christian Falangist Party..these guys are really scary people. This would be a case where I would try to find an archive copy rather than going to the actual site, though.

79 HoosierHoops  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:56:17pm

re: #72 MandyManners

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Matthew 12:34

God is Love...
I read that somewhere my friend

80 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:56:29pm

re: #58 albusteve

Condell also put up a new rant defending Geert Wilders. Although I agree that Geert shouldn't be prosecuted I can't bring myself to watch Pat's rant about it. He kinda lost me a while ago.

81 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:57:20pm

re: #67 SanFranciscoZionist

How much White House/Presidential access did Robertson have over the years?

Release the guest lists! (it's not executive privilege!)

82 jaunte  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:57:29pm

Pat Robertson predicted that the Soviet Union would invade Israel. I wonder if he ever took that off the table.

83 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:57:53pm

re: #81 Stanley Sea

Release the guest lists! (it's not executive privilege!)

How many people are there named Pat Robertson?

84 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:57:59pm

re: #67 SanFranciscoZionist

How much White House/Presidential access did Robertson have over the years?

For how many presidents was he an influential spiritual leader long before they decided to run for president?

85 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:58:02pm

re: #75 cliffster

I think when the tea party movement started, it was 95% people pissed off about the bailout. I'm with them 100% on that. I really don't know what it is now, in the trenches, now that it's evident who is at the helm.

I don't think Sarah is really doing anything more than fleecing the sheep, unless she's dumb enough to believe her own PR, and I see no reason to see that she isn't.

86 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:58:28pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout

Condell also put up a new rant defending Geert Wilders. Although I agree that Geert shouldn't be prosecuted I can't bring myself to watch Pat's rant about it. He kinda lost me a while ago.

he has become super outspoken...very aggressive...I'll check out the Wilders rant

87 HoosierHoops  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:58:34pm

re: #82 jaunte

Pat Robertson predicted that the Soviet Union would invade Israel. I wonder if he ever took that off the table.

Pat is in my top 10 people I can't stand...

88 Lateralis  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:58:43pm

re: #62 torrentprime

Tancredo has always been out there. Years ago I heard him interviewed on a talk show about the Patriot Act and he went as far to saw that he believed the police would never violate someone constitutional rights re: #77 jamesfirecat

What if she's running as a Tea Party candidate?

God forbid. The Tea Party will only ensure the election of people they are trying to keep out of office. I agree in general why they are upset with the government which I would assume over taxation. I think as the movement as morphed the more radical are trying to get their agenda attached to the movement.

89 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:58:50pm

re: #78 PT Barnum

You want to see something really scary go to the website of the Christian Falangist Party..these guys are really scary people. This would be a case where I would try to find an archive copy rather than going to the actual site, though.

Which Falangist party? They have been in Spain and Lebanon, at least.

90 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:58:56pm

re: #83 jamesfirecat

How many people are there named Pat Robertson?

I'm going to guess several.

91 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:59:14pm

re: #85 PT Barnum

I don't think Sarah is really doing anything more than fleecing the sheep, unless she's dumb enough to believe her own PR, and I see no reason to see that she isn't.

The outrage of those lacking in political astuteness is easily channeled.

92 hugh59  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:59:16pm

Just because some conservatives are bad people does not mean that all conservatives are bad people. Just because some conservatives say stupid things does not mean that all conservatives are stupid.

I don't think that making fun of people with different ideas is consistent with the ideals that progressives say they follow. Of course, just because some progressives do not live up to those ideals does not mean that all progressives fail in the same way.

Those of you who enjoy making fun of conservatives (and use the failings of some conservative figures as a reason to ignore all conservatives) should try to listen to conservatives and see who they really are and what they really believe in. It is easy to oppose a "straw man."

93 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:59:22pm

re: #79 HoosierHoops

God is Love...
I read that somewhere my friend

Indeed.

94 Racer X  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 6:59:23pm
95 freetoken  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:00:00pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout

Is it the same one that was posted in the spin-offs a couple of days ago?

96 jaunte  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:00:07pm

re: #87 HoosierHoops

He has an eerie resemblance to my father-in-law.

97 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:00:16pm

re: #32 Lateralis

I am playing the middle on this and I think the fringe on both sides has way to much influence in politics. Unfortunately the fringe makes for good ratings on cable news.

Also just so I can understand you better, in what way do you consider the left fringe to have too much influence on their politics?

98 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:00:52pm

re: #91 cliffster

The outrage of those lacking in political astuteness is easily channeled.

well enough of them works out to a win...

99 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:01:05pm

re: #88 Lateralis

Tancredo has always been out there. Years ago I heard him interviewed on a talk show about the Patriot Act and he went as far to saw that he believed the police would never violate someone constitutional rights re: #77 jamesfirecat

God forbid. The Tea Party will only ensure the election of people they are trying to keep out of office. I agree in general why they are upset with the government which I would assume over taxation. I think as the movement as morphed the more radical are trying to get their agenda attached to the movement.

there was no leadership from the outset and the lunatics pounced...they have been waiting for this very vehicle to coalesce and lo and behold...boom! right in their lap...too bad but that's the way it works

100 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:01:27pm

re: #92 hugh59

Just because some conservatives are bad people does not mean that all conservatives are bad people. Just because some conservatives say stupid things does not mean that all conservatives are stupid.

I don't think that making fun of people with different ideas is consistent with the ideals that progressives say they follow. Of course, just because some progressives do not live up to those ideals does not mean that all progressives fail in the same way.

Those of you who enjoy making fun of conservatives (and use the failings of some conservative figures as a reason to ignore all conservatives) should try to listen to conservatives and see who they really are and what they really believe in. It is easy to oppose a "straw man."

The problem is that the people with different ideas don't just have different ideas, they have ideas that have no basis in reality.

Unfortunately, (and I'll bet you can find any number of examples in the archives) the people within the Conservative movement who should be keeping those people either under control or out of power aren't doing their job because they are beholden to them to get elected.

101 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:01:51pm

re: #95 freetoken

Is it the same one that was posted in the spin-offs a couple of days ago?

I don't know. I sadly gave up on checking out the spinoff links a while ago when it was all right wing conspiracy theories. I should start looking at them again.

102 jaunte  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:04:45pm

re: #100 PT Barnum

The problem is that the people with different ideas don't just have different ideas, they have ideas that have no basis in reality.

Repeated for emphasis. There is a leadership vacuum on the conservative side, and the nuts are getting in the way of understanding the real problems, with so much attention paid to the conspiracy/outrage of the day.

103 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:04:46pm

A puffed-up man who deigns to tell the rest of the world how to live?

104 Lateralis  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:05:22pm

re: #97 jamesfirecat

Also just so I can understand you better, in what way do you consider the left fringe to have too much influence on their politics?

The power brokers behind the scene like George Soros. From my political view Pelosi and Reed are part of that contingent also.

105 Aye Pod  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:06:37pm

(2:16) And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin.

(2:17) "Then, shalt thou count to three; no more, no less.

(2:18) "Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three.

(2:19) "Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three.

(2:20) "Five is right out.

(2:22) "Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.

106 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:07:19pm

re: #105 Jimmah

(2:16) And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin.

(2:17) "Then, shalt thou count to three; no more, no less.

(2:18) "Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three.

(2:19) "Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three.

(2:20) "Five is right out.

(2:22) "Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.


[Video]

Preach it Brother!

107 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:08:56pm

I am curious how a man with such things in his closet presumes to tell America and Haiti how they are being judged by God.

108 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:09:01pm

re: #102 jaunte

Repeated for emphasis. There is a leadership vacuum on the conservative side, and the nuts are getting in the way of understanding the real problems, with so much attention paid to the conspiracy/outrage of the day.

The weapon Buckley and Goldwater used to suppress the fringe was their personal respect. Who has that kind of mana on the Right today. (For that matter, any anyone maintain a public reputation in the face of piranha politics?)

109 HoosierHoops  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:09:02pm

re: #105 Jimmah

(2:16) And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin.

(2:17) "Then, shalt thou count to three; no more, no less.

(2:18) "Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three.

(2:19) "Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three.

(2:20) "Five is right out.

(2:22) "Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.


[Video]

When you get to the US I'll email Ice and I'll call you guys..It will be great fun.. Kind regards

110 RogueOne  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:09:33pm

Everyone has already posted the gold stories, anyone mention the diamonds?

Jewels for Jesus


The association of dictator and preacher began with a Robertson relief group, Operation Blessing, a branch of which has botched a corn-cultivation project on a 50,000-acre farm outside the capital, Kinshasa. Last year during the Rwandan refugee crisis, Operation Blessing expanded its humanitarian efforts to Goma but was criticized for spending too much money on transportation, pulling its workers out too soon and proselytizing. ``They were laying on hands," an American aid worker recalls, ``speaking in tongues and holding services while people were dying all around." Many relief agencies are notorious for mismanagement and backbiting, but even considering that, Operation Blessing drew a considerable volume of negative reviews from fellow Samaritans.

Another Robertson organization working in Zaire is the African Development Co. Around the world, Robertson has substantial business interests (in the U.S. he controls TV's Family Channel, the Ice Capades and KaloVita, a venture selling vitamins and skin creams from the Holy Land), and ADC is a private enterprise formed to look into investments in mining, lumber, agriculture, transportation and power generation, with an eye to plowing the profits back into humanitarian efforts. A nascent diamond-mining operation in Zaire is a project of the ADC. Located on a river southeast of the boomtown of Tshikapa in the heart of Zaire's diamond country, the project uses state-of-the-art dredges and diving equipment. Robertson is also exploring gold interests on the upper Zaire, or Congo, River, and assessing the hardwood logging potential of four great swaths of rain forest.


[Link: www.time.com...]

A televangelist in it for the money? I'm stunned.

111 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:10:07pm

re: #104 Lateralis

The power brokers behind the scene like George Soros. From my political view Pelosi and Reed are part of that contingent also.

You think that Harry Reid is part of the fringe left?

Excuse me while I go laugh my guts out.

YOU THINK THAT HARRY REID IS PART OF THE FAR LEFT?


You think a Democrat from Nevada who couldn't get healthcare reform with any kind of a public option, even when he had a supermajority, is part of the far left?

Could you please explain to me why you think that?

Also can I have some proof on the George Soros thing? I've only seen his named mentioned as some kind boogey man...

112 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:10:19pm

re: #107 SanFranciscoZionist

I am curious how a man with such things in his closet presumes to tell America and Haiti how they are being judged by God.

Shame. Or rather, the lack thereof

113 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:10:35pm

re: #108 Decatur Deb

PIMF "can anyone"

114 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:11:06pm
115 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:11:07pm

re: #108 Decatur Deb

The weapon Buckley and Goldwater used to suppress the fringe was their personal respect. Who has that kind of mana on the Right today. (For that matter, any anyone maintain a public reputation in the face of piranha politics?)

wow... and there is the game plan. "you don't have to respect me, you just have to respect the other guy less."

116 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:11:24pm

re: #110 RogueOne

Everyone has already posted the gold stories, anyone mention the diamonds?

Jewels for Jesus


[Link: www.time.com...]

A televangelist in it for the money? I'm stunned.

Blood of the Lamb Diamonds.

117 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:11:47pm

re: #111 jamesfirecat

Also can I have some proof on the George Soros thing? I've only seen his named mentioned as some kind boogey man...

118 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:12:57pm

Look, you're got it all wrong, you don't need to follow me. You're all individuals!

Yes, we're all individuals!

119 Girth  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:14:52pm

re: #118 iceweasel

Look, you're got it all wrong, you don't need to follow me. You're all individuals!

Yes, we're all individuals!

[Video]

Fuck off!

How shall we fuck off, my Lord?

120 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:15:34pm

re: #117 PT Barnum

[Video]

Barnum's rules of how to tell a song was written in the 70's

1) It contains the word boogie.
2) It is mandatory to refer to a female significant other as "Mama"

121 andres  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:15:45pm

re: #69 EmmmieG

I think I'm beginning to understand why the only recorded instance of Christ losing his temper involved people making money off of the faith of others.

It is, I think, one of the greatest ironies off all time. These alleged Christians can recite almost any verse* in the Bible, except those that challenge their thinking (Luke 12:56 included).

122 Racer X  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:15:50pm

Finally, Obama is honoring George W. Bush

The Obama Administration will be honoring the 43rd
President of the United States by naming the gap between the tectonic plates beneath Haiti after him.

The area will now officially be referred to as "Bush's Fault"

123 Aye Pod  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:16:25pm

re: #109 HoosierHoops

When you get to the US I'll email Ice and I'll call you guys..It will be great fun.. Kind regards

Sure Hoops! Ah cannae wait.

124 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:17:01pm

re: #122 Racer X

Finally, Obama is honoring George W. Bush

The Obama Administration will be honoring the 43rd
President of the United States by naming the gap between the tectonic plates beneath Haiti after him.

The area will now officially be referred to as "Bush's Fault"

Now that's just mean...


Too bad tectonic plate activity wasn't responsible for Katrina.

125 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:17:33pm

re: #122 Racer X

Finally, Obama is honoring George W. Bush

The Obama Administration will be honoring the 43rd
President of the United States by naming the gap between the tectonic plates beneath Haiti after him.

The area will now officially be referred to as "Bush's Fault"

ohgawd, that is even funnier then "the lost decade"...

126 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:18:01pm

re: #122 Racer X

Finally, Obama is honoring George W. Bush

The Obama Administration will be honoring the 43rd
President of the United States by naming the gap between the tectonic plates beneath Haiti after him.

The area will now officially be referred to as "Bush's Fault"

127 Lateralis  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:18:04pm

re: #111 jamesfirecat


Reid's lack of ability to get health care reform through has nothing to do with how far left he is but maybe due to his leadership abilities. Soros for that matter is one of the biggest contributors to the democratic party which I believe is not center left at the time but has moved to the far left.

128 Unakite  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:18:41pm

re: #7 Charles

The Taylor connection has been known since 1999.

Charles,

With all due respect, that links to a Wikipedia article and the Pat Robertson link links to a description of the newspaper (Virginian Pilot). I am not a Pat Robertson fan, but I tried to follow the links and did not find the VP article.

129 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:18:47pm

re: #119 Girth

Fuck off!

How shall we fuck off, my Lord?

Much as I love Holy Grail, I think Life of Brian is probably even better.

130 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:19:04pm

KT
just watched the Condell/Wilders vid...thought it was pretty mild, but he goes full blast after Islam again...calling Wilders a hero was a bit over the top, but once again, it's hard to argue against him imo

131 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:19:05pm

re: #127 Lateralis

Reid's lack of ability to get health care reform through has nothing to do with how far left he is but maybe due to his leadership abilities. Soros for that matter is one of the biggest contributors to the democratic party which I believe is not center left at the time but has moved to the far left.

Has the Obama Administration done anything that you call "far left" or suspect the fringe left was responsible for?

132 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:19:17pm

re: #127 Lateralis

Reid's lack of ability to get health care reform through has nothing to do with how far left he is but maybe due to his leadership abilities. Soros for that matter is one of the biggest contributors to the democratic party which I believe is not center left at the time but has moved to the far left.

define far left...as the window for most has moved so far right that not kicking old ladies out in the street is now considered a far left position.

133 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:19:26pm

re: #128 Unakite

Charles,

With all due respect, that links to a Wikipedia article and the Pat Robertson link links to a description of the newspaper (Virginian Pilot). I am not a Pat Robertson fan, but I tried to follow the links and did not find the VP article.

There are other links in this thread establishing the connection.

134 HoosierHoops  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:20:00pm

re: #123 Jimmah

Sure Hoops! Ah cannae wait.

I look forward to it..Just don't forget to speak English!
*wink*

135 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:20:54pm

re: #130 albusteve

Yeah, he seems ok but I think he's headed in a different direction than I.

136 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:20:57pm

re: #122 Racer X

Finally, Obama is honoring George W. Bush

The Obama Administration will be honoring the 43rd
President of the United States by naming the gap between the tectonic plates beneath Haiti after him.

The area will now officially be referred to as "Bush's Fault"

heh...pretty good

137 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:21:00pm

re: #123 Jimmah

Sure Hoops! Ah cannae wait.

Oooh, I love when Jimmah talks like that. :)

138 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:21:17pm

re: #134 HoosierHoops

I look forward to it..Just don't forget to speak English!
*wink*

"Press #47 for Scots Gaelic"

139 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:23:13pm

re: #135 Killgore Trout

Yeah, he seems ok but I think he's headed in a different direction than I.

you have a direction?, lucky you...I've never figured out that part of life...I know I've gone round in a few circles, bouncing along

140 Girth  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:23:16pm

re: #129 iceweasel

Much as I love Holy Grail, I think Life of Brian is probably even better.


[Video]

Agreed.

Life of Brian > Holy Grail > The Meaning of Life

141 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:23:33pm

re: #69 EmmmieG

I think I'm beginning to understand why the only recorded instance of Christ losing his temper involved people making money off of the faith of others.

You forgot the time he bitched out that fig tree that wouldn't put out in the off season. Of course he was in the desert and on his way to give the BIG FOOT to some money changer butt, so I tend to argue that that fig tree was just collateral damage.

142 hugh59  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:23:41pm

re: #100 PT Barnum

The problem is that the people with different ideas don't just have different ideas, they have ideas that have no basis in reality.

Unfortunately, (and I'll bet you can find any number of examples in the archives) the people within the Conservative movement who should be keeping those people either under control or out of power aren't doing their job because they are beholden to them to get elected.

Are you saying that all conservative ideas have no basis in reality? I hope not.

As for conservatives failing to keep the problem makers on their side under control, I don't see the liberals doing much to control their problem makers. So, let's just acknowledge that both sides have difficulty with some of the people on their side and move on.

I am a conservative who understands liberal ideas and I take them seriously. I am not alone on my side of the political sprectrum. I wish I could find more liberals who would take conservative ideas seriously. We are not stupid and evil...just ignored.

143 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:23:44pm

re: #131 jamesfirecat

Has the Obama Administration done anything that you call "far left" or suspect the fringe left was responsible for?

public option. whether he gave in on it or not, that was clearly on his agenda.

144 Lidane  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:24:09pm

Sorry for going OT, but I thought this was amusing:

Even GOP conservative Ron Paul draws Tea Party opposition

145 Irenicum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:24:28pm

Speaking of Monty Python. And now for something completely different. No, not the Larch, but the newest reluctant Messiah

146 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:24:58pm

re: #122 Racer X

Finally, Obama is honoring George W. Bush

The Obama Administration will be honoring the 43rd
President of the United States by naming the gap between the tectonic plates beneath Haiti after him.

The area will now officially be referred to as "Bush's Fault"

That made me laugh my ass off. Give me my ass back, racer

147 Irenicum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:25:37pm

re: #143 cliffster

So the public option is far left? Wow, I guess I'm far left. Cool, can I get my Mao bumper sticker now?

148 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:25:56pm

re: #139 albusteve

you have a direction?, lucky you...I've never figured out that part of life...I know I've gone round in a few circles, bouncing along

How does it feel, to be on your own, with no direction home?

149 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:26:05pm

re: #143 cliffster

public option. whether he gave in on it or not, that was clearly on his agenda.

The public option is "far left" what do you call "single payer" then? Ultra Super Duper Left?

150 Racer X  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:26:51pm
151 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:26:59pm

re: #142 hugh59

Are you saying that all conservative ideas have no basis in reality? I hope not.

As for conservatives failing to keep the problem makers on their side under control, I don't see the liberals doing much to control their problem makers. So, let's just acknowledge that both sides have difficulty with some of the people on their side and move on.

I am a conservative who understands liberal ideas and I take them seriously. I am not alone on my side of the political sprectrum. I wish I could find more liberals who would take conservative ideas seriously. We are not stupid and evil...just ignored.

just walk away from the whole ugly mess...I am...maybe good citizenship might require that you don't promote or participate in political bullshit against your principle...I have no problem with it, fuck 'em all...life goes on anyway

152 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:27:05pm

re: #27 Rightwingconspirator

I am just too angry to respond. I just typed & removed in preview a post that might have gotten me in real trouble here. Suffice to say a religious man abusing the honor and his flock is a literally damnable violation to me.

You know, I can expect that a clergy person could go bad. Take money, be bribed. It happens. But Charles Taylor? Charles Taylor?!

This guy is responsible for little babies having their arms and hands chopped off, blinded, 10 year old cocaine addicted "soldiers." Raping, looting. The atrocities this man has sanctioned is beyond belief. In fact, I was asking about him a month or so ago. I can't believe he's still on trial.

153 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:27:09pm

re: #149 jamesfirecat

The public option is "far left" what do you call "single payer" then? Ultra Super Duper Left?

I call it, "stupid". You call it whatever you like...

154 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:27:10pm

re: #145 Irenicum

Speaking of Monty Python. And now for something completely different. No, not the Larch, but the newest reluctant Messiah

Oh how sad!

Ben Shoucair, 24, a college student from Detroit, does not need more convincing. He said he saw Mr. Patel in a dream, and then was stunned to find a YouTube video and discover his vision was real. Last week, Mr. Shoucair and his father spent $990 on last-minute tickets to fly to San Francisco to be in Mr. Patel’s presence at a book promotion.

Reached by phone this week, Mr. Shoucair said meeting Mr. Patel had made him “happy.” He said the Maitreya evidence was irrefutable. “It puts it all on Raj Patel at this time in history.”

Mr. Shoucair seemed amazed when told that Mr. Patel did not believe he was the messiah and had never heard of Mr. Creme. “See how deep the spiritual world is,” Mr. Shoucair said.

Mr. Patel said of their pilgrimage: “It broke my heart. They’d flown all the way from Detroit.”


Just awful.

155 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:27:38pm

re: #148 Decatur Deb

How does it feel, to be on your own, with no direction home?

a complete unknown...that's a killer

156 Lateralis  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:27:52pm

re: #131 jamesfirecat

Has the Obama Administration done anything that you call "far left" or suspect the fringe left was responsible for?

You can not be serious and consider most of President Obama's policies as center left. President Obama was the most liberal Senator coming into office and his policies as President have reflected that. However, much to the dislike of the far left, he is center left on the war and that is about it.

157 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:28:09pm

re: #142 hugh59

Are you saying that all conservative ideas have no basis in reality? I hope not.

We weren't talking about all conservatives, just the nutjobs. But until the sane conservatives get the nutjobs under control, they're gonna all get painted with the same broad brush.

We are not stupid and evil...just ignored.

Please don't waste both our time playing the victim card. When you have an entire cable network and hundreds of radio stations spewing the nonsense that passes for mainstream conservative thought these days, you aren't being ignored, you're being dismissed.

If conservatives want to be taken seriously, in my opinion they need to do two things:

1) Stop using obstructionism as a philosophy of governing.
2) Come out and say explicitly that the theocons do not represent conservative thought.
3) Start coming up with some real policy ideas that don't rely on the same old discredited supply side economic theories.
4) Stop blaming everything on the liberals and start taking responsibility for their own fuckups.

158 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:28:34pm

re: #153 cliffster

I call it, "stupid". You call it whatever you like...

So the UK, Canada, and France's healthcare plans are all "stupid" if so how come the UK gets ranked higher than we do on healthcare while spending less money then we do?

"Stupid like a fox" Indeed!

159 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:28:43pm

Pat robertson is the EBOLA of religion.

160 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:29:11pm

re: #156 Lateralis

You can not be serious and consider most of President Obama's policies as center left. President Obama was the most liberal Senator coming into office and his policies as President have reflected that. However, much to the dislike of the far left, he is center left on the war and that is about it.

Name me some examples of the "far left" policies he's been pushing for.

161 Irenicum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:29:25pm

re: #154 iceweasel

Yeah, I know. That jumped out at me too. It's sad how delusional people can be. I know, I have relatives.

162 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:29:54pm

Gotta' go.

163 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:30:12pm

re: #158 jamesfirecat

So the UK, Canada, and France's healthcare plans are all "stupid" if so how come the UK gets ranked higher than we do on healthcare while spending less money then we do?

"Stupid like a fox" Indeed!

Oh now you're done it.
Denial engaged at full speed: anecdotal evidence about the NHS, fake figures thrown out about UK healthcare vs US, etc, all INCOMING!

164 Gus  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:30:55pm

re: #157 PT Barnum

Please don't waste both our time playing the victim card. When you have an entire cable network and hundreds of radio stations spewing the nonsense that passes for mainstream conservative thought these days, you aren't being ignored, you're being dismissed.

If conservatives want to be taken seriously, in my opinion they need to do two things:

1) Stop using obstructionism as a philosophy of governing.
2) Come out and say explicitly that the theocons do not represent conservative thought.
3) Start coming up with some real policy ideas that don't rely on the same old discredited supply side economic theories.
4) Stop blaming everything on the liberals and start taking responsibility for their own fuckups.

Good point. Regarding the list I just don't see that happening. As I stated last year we're only seeing the reverse.

165 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:31:35pm

re: #152 marjoriemoon

You know, I can expect that a clergy person could go bad. Take money, be bribed. It happens. But Charles Taylor? Charles Taylor?!

This guy is responsible for little babies having their arms and hands chopped off, blinded, 10 year old cocaine addicted "soldiers." Raping, looting. The atrocities this man has sanctioned is beyond belief. In fact, I was asking about him a month or so ago. I can't believe he's still on trial.

Taylor should be put up against a wall, right next to Mugabe

166 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:31:41pm

re: #157 PT Barnum

Please don't waste both our time playing the victim card. When you have an entire cable network and hundreds of radio stations spewing the nonsense that passes for mainstream conservative thought these days, you aren't being ignored, you're being dismissed.

If conservatives want to be taken seriously, in my opinion they need to do two four things:

1) Stop using obstructionism as a philosophy of governing.
2) Come out and say explicitly that the theocons do not represent conservative thought.
3) Start coming up with some real policy ideas that don't rely on the same old discredited supply side economic theories.
4) Stop blaming everything on the liberals and start taking responsibility for their own fuckups.

apparently I can't count...

167 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:31:42pm

re: #158 jamesfirecat

So the UK, Canada, and France's healthcare plans are all "stupid" if so how come the UK gets ranked higher than we do on healthcare while spending less money then we do?

"Stupid like a fox" Indeed!

I reckon it depends on who is doing the ranking. And what agenda they have. Everyone has an agenda, I will tell you that. Don't say cliffster never told you anything.

168 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:32:08pm

re: #154 iceweasel

Mr. Shoucair is on his way to Rheims to see the Dauphin.

169 euphgeek  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:32:24pm

re: #153 cliffster

I call it, "stupid". You call it whatever you like...

How is it stupid? As james pointed out, other countries use it and they seem to like it. So enlighten us as to why you think it's stupid.

170 Lidane  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:32:30pm

re: #157 PT Barnum

Your whole list is a good start, but this point in particular stands out:

4) Stop blaming everything on the liberals and start taking responsibility for their own fuckups.

If this ever happened, Hell would freeze over. Won't happen. Ever.

171 Irenicum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:32:37pm

re: #162 MandyManners

G'nite Mandy!

172 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:32:56pm

re: #160 jamesfirecat

Name me some examples of the "far left" policies he's been pushing for.

— Running around the world apologizing for how "bad" the USA has been, for one.

Listen to Pacifica Radio & you will see how this is a perfect fit with the attitude of the far left.

(And this telegraphs weakness, and invites attack.).

173 HoosierHoops  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:34:09pm

Now that Football season is over and I have had my heart ripped out...
I'm watching #1 Kansas play College Basketball tonight against Texas..
Nice point play tonight.. Crisp movement and crisp passing...You want your points fast and crisp...
/Thank goodness for Ball...The SB really sucked this year

174 Lateralis  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:34:11pm

re: #157 PT Barnum

This is to funny. Democrats definition of obstruction is that if you don't agree with our policy you are an obstructionist. Such as, if you do not support the public option you are being an obstructionist and to say that one side is participating more in the blame game then the other is just off base. President Obama starts every speech with I did not get us in this mess. I don't care who got us in the mess I just want to know how and when he is going to fix it. That is why he was elected.

175 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:34:12pm

re: #161 Irenicum

Yeah, I know. That jumped out at me too. It's sad how delusional people can be. I know, I have relatives.

It's a sign of how hungry people are for answers and some kind of spiritual.'otherworldly' meaning and comfort.
I'm an atheist but not the kind that hates religion (very few actually do). Religion can provide all sorts of succor to people and I'd never seek to deny that, or say they are 'wrong' for it. They're not. Meaning comes from many sources in human existence.

I detest the cranks who exploit that fundamental human need though, especially the ones like Robertson who appear to be willing to make a deal with, if not the devil, then a representative of the worst evil humans are capable of on earth.

176 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:34:28pm

re: #153 cliffster

I call it, "stupid". You call it whatever you like...

cash for clunkers is my favorite socialist scheme, pander max...it should have been illegal but what a circus eh?...extrapolate from that some other possibilities!...BO and his crew are a bunch of runaway political muggers

177 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:34:29pm

re: #172 Ojoe

— Running around the world apologizing for how "bad" the USA has been, for one.

Listen to Pacifica Radio & you will see how this is a perfect fit with the attitude of the far left.

(And this telegraphs weakness, and invites attack.).

Horse shit..it takes balls to say "Hey we fucked up and are going to do things differently"...how much courage does it take to deny anything's wrong and keep on doing the stupid shit?

178 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:34:35pm

re: #167 cliffster

I reckon it depends on who is doing the ranking. And what agenda they have. Everyone has an agenda, I will tell you that. Don't say cliffster never told you anything.

What system do you rank them by that puts the US ahead?

179 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:35:35pm

re: #119 Girth

Actually, IIRC:

"Piss off!"

"How shall we piss off, master?"

180 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:35:56pm

re: #169 euphgeek

How is it stupid? As james pointed out, other countries use it and they seem to like it. So enlighten us as to why you think it's stupid.

I could spend a few minutes and type some stuff out, and have you instantly respond, "right-wingnut talking points!" And then say something about Tea Party racists. I could do that...

181 Unakite  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:36:04pm

re: #21 Killgore Trout

That pact with the devil includes the Moonies who run Robertson's Liberty university and employed folks like RS McCain at the Washington Times. Tea Party!

Uh...Liberty University was Falwell. Moonies are nuts. RSM is a racist. I don't support any of them, but this doesn't make sense.

182 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:36:20pm

re: #174 Lateralis

This is to funny. Democrats definition of obstruction is that if you don't agree with our policy you are an obstructionist. Such as, if you do not support the public option you are being an obstructionist and to say that one side is participating more in the blame game then the other is just off base. President Obama starts every speech with I did not get us in this mess. I don't care who got us in the mess I just want to know how and when he is going to fix it. That is why he was elected.

Obstructionism isn't not voting for policy, it's insisting that the other side negotiate when you have no intention of voting for anything regardless of what is agreed to. I think there is plenty of evidence that the GOP was more interested in turning health care reform into a defeat for this president than they were in trying to actually solve the problem.

183 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:36:20pm

re: #174 Lateralis

This is to funny. Democrats definition of obstruction is that if you don't agree with our policy you are an obstructionist. Such as, if you do not support the public option you are being an obstructionist and to say that one side is participating more in the blame game then the other is just off base. President Obama starts every speech with I did not get us in this mess. I don't care who got us in the mess I just want to know how and when he is going to fix it. That is why he was elected.

How many votes does it take to get a law passed in the senate given a fillibuster?

How many democrats are there in the senate right now?

How do you think Obama should get his ideas made into laws?

184 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:37:05pm

re: #182 PT Barnum

Obstructionism isn't not voting for policy, it's insisting that the other side negotiate when you have no intention of voting for anything regardless of what is agreed to. I think there is plenty of evidence that the GOP was more interested in turning health care reform into a defeat for this president than they were in trying to actually solve the problem.

"We will make this his Waterloo!"

185 Aye Pod  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:37:15pm

re: #138 Decatur Deb

"Press #47 for Scots Gaelic"

Lowland Scots would be a great language to flounce with:

"Yees are aw a bunch o jobby munchin' bawbags. It's jist no like whit it used tae be like aboot here anymare. Fuck yees aw.."

;-)

186 Unakite  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:37:34pm

re: #26 albusteve

conversely, conservatives are leaving politics behind...I am an Army of One!...hahaha!

Hopefully, at least an Army of Two (or more)??

187 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:37:35pm

re: #180 cliffster

I could spend a few minutes and type some stuff out, and have you instantly respond, "right-wingnut talking points!" And then say something about Tea Party racists. I could do that...

"Well I would argue with you... but then you'd just end up winning!"

188 hugh59  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:37:48pm

re: #157 PT Barnum

There are plenty of nut jobs on the liberal/progressive side of the aisle and your side does little to keep them under control. Conservatives have "an entire cable network" on its side and hundreds of radio stations...whoa. You forgot to mention the National Review, the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal, and the other conservative publications. Liberals have ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN, the New York Times, the Washington Post, and a large number of other news outlets, magazines, and publications.

"...you aren't being ignored, you're being dismissed." You are going to ignore ideas from people with a different perspective because you don't like what some of the other people on that side are doing. Then you do not deserve to call yourself a "progressive." You are just looking for an excuse to ignore the other side. Enjoy your ignorance.

189 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:37:57pm

re: #181 Unakite

Uh...Liberty University was Falwell. Moonies are nuts. RSM is a racist. I don't support any of them, but this doesn't make sense.

I'll fill in the blanks if KT doesn't.

190 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:37:58pm

re: #178 jamesfirecat

What system do you rank them by that puts the US ahead?

My brother got HIV in 1993. He's still alive today. He had no insurance from 1990-2005. Or something close to that.

191 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:38:17pm

re: #177 PT Barnum

Heads of state must play by more primitive rules than those that a private person may play by.

In the arena where strength only is respected, it must be shown or penalties payed.

And only the strong can be gentle.

192 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:38:40pm

re: #173 HoosierHoops

Now that Football season is over and I have had my heart ripped out...
I'm watching #1 Kansas play College Basketball tonight against Texas..
Nice point play tonight.. Crisp movement and crisp passing...You want your points fast and crisp...
/Thank goodness for Ball...The SB really sucked this year

the Colts are not that good...they beat up a bunch of cupcakes...you were warned to be prepared...nothing out of the ordinary, the Saints just beat the snot out of an inferior team

193 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:38:41pm

re: #187 jamesfirecat

"Well I would argue with you... but then you'd just end up winning!"

That was pretty funny. But I'm still not biting.

194 darthstar  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:39:22pm

That wouldn't be the same "Former Republican Candidate For President Pat Robertson" that we all know and love, would it? Oh, if only Pat and the "barrahcougar" were arm in arm...wouldn't that "It was just satire" excuse be fun to watch.

195 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:39:55pm

re: #167 cliffster

I reckon it depends on who is doing the ranking. And what agenda they have. Everyone has an agenda, I will tell you that. Don't say cliffster never told you anything.

well when the pols from Canada come to the US for health care...

[Link: www.nationalpost.com...]

it should tell you something.

196 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:40:25pm

re: #174 Lateralis

This is to funny. Democrats definition of obstruction is that if you don't agree with our policy you are an obstructionist. Such as, if you do not support the public option you are being an obstructionist and to say that one side is participating more in the blame game then the other is just off base. President Obama starts every speech with I did not get us in this mess. I don't care who got us in the mess I just want to know how and when he is going to fix it. That is why he was elected.

I'm glad the HC 'worst bill of the century' was obstructed...good job GOP and Blue Dogs!

197 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:40:56pm

re: #190 cliffster

My brother got HIV in 1993. He's still alive today. He had no insurance from 1990-2005. Or something close to that.

How much money did your brother spend on his treatment?

198 Gus  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:40:59pm

re: #175 iceweasel

It's a sign of how hungry people are for answers and some kind of spiritual.'otherworldly' meaning and comfort.
I'm an atheist but not the kind that hates religion (very few actually do). Religion can provide all sorts of succor to people and I'd never seek to deny that, or say they are 'wrong' for it. They're not. Meaning comes from many sources in human existence.

I detest the cranks who exploit that fundamental human need though, especially the ones like Robertson who appear to be willing to make a deal with, if not the devil, then a representative of the worst evil humans are capable of on earth.

Pat Robertson represents a uniquely American brand of commercialized religion. It is not unlike fast food as it too is mass produced for quick sale over the television sets. A type of quasi-religion inspired by advertising. It began with self educated and self anointed preachers already representing a caricature of themselves.

199 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:41:06pm

I found out tonight that the government is off tomorrow. Nice to have another day off, not so nice that I've burned through all of my paid time off. I can work from home some tomorrow, but I can't see myself doing eight hours of boring cataloging.

200 euphgeek  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:41:09pm

re: #180 cliffster

I could spend a few minutes and type some stuff out, and have you instantly respond, "right-wingnut talking points!" And then say something about Tea Party racists. I could do that...

Well it depends on how well thought out they are. But merely dismissing something as "stupid" without even providing so much as a cursory explanation certainly doesn't show any depth.

201 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:41:46pm

re: #185 Jimmah

Lowland Scots would be a great language to flounce with:

"Yees are aw a bunch o jobby munchin' bawbags. It's jist no like whit it used tae be like aboot here anymare. Fuck yees aw.."

;-)

I have no idea what that meant but it was hawt.

/Kidding; I know exactly what that meant.

still kinda hawt...

202 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:41:54pm

re: #173 HoosierHoops

Now that Football season is over and I have had my heart ripped out...
I'm watching #1 Kansas play College Basketball tonight against Texas..
Nice point play tonight.. Crisp movement and crisp passing...You want your points fast and crisp...
/Thank goodness for Ball...The SB really sucked this year

been meaning to tell you.. sorry HH. Good game, I thought Colts were a better team but the Saints pulled it off.

203 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:41:59pm

Is POTUS still pushing for the US to join the ICC?

204 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:42:17pm

re: #195 brookly red

well when the pols from Canada come to the US for health care...

[Link: www.nationalpost.com...]

it should tell you something.

The "pols" are who exactly?

205 HoosierHoops  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:42:49pm

re: #192 albusteve

the Colts are not that good...they beat up a bunch of cupcakes...you were warned to be prepared...nothing out of the ordinary, the Saints just beat the snot out of an inferior team

Thanks for making a dig when the Colts lose.. The Colts are one class act in The NFL.. They can hold their head high...
They have earned it..Good young men

206 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:43:14pm

re: #165 albusteve

Taylor should be put up against a wall, right next to Mugabe.

I was trying to follow the trial awhile back.

I can't believe Robertson was hauling diamond equipment!! This was during the black market diamond trade when Taylor was directing his armies to commit the atrocities. Bill Clinton signed in the Kimberly Act to mark diamonds so that reputable sellers (Baer's, Mayors) would know their diamonds weren't mined by child indentured servants. Blood Diamonds.

According to two Operation Blessing pilots who reported this incident to the Commonwealth of Virginia for investigation in 1994, Robertson used his Operation Blessing planes to haul diamond-mining equipment to Robertson's mines in Liberia, despite the fact that Robertson was telling his 700 Club viewers that the planes were sending relief supplies to the victims of the genocide in Rwanda.

Charles, it looks like the article was written in 1999, but Robertson was involved in 1994.

Why isn't Robertson on trial?

207 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:43:28pm

re: #190 cliffster

My brother got HIV in 1993. He's still alive today. He had no insurance from 1990-2005. Or something close to that.

Did he pay for care out of pocket?

208 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:43:29pm

re: #177 PT Barnum

Horse shit..it takes balls to say "Hey we fucked up and are going to do things differently"...how much courage does it take to deny anything's wrong and keep on doing the stupid shit?

BO is an ass...where did he temper his apologistic blather with anything positive?..."fucked up" is highly subjective, therefore I say BO fucked up...he wants to be well liked and all he got for his whimpering tripe was scorn, and he deserves it...he's no leader, he's a swindler

209 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:43:51pm

re: #204 jamesfirecat

The "pols" are who exactly?

Did you click the link?
The one mentioned in that article is Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams - he will undergo heart surgery later this week in the United States.

210 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:44:14pm

The civil war in Sierra Leone was soul-suckingly appalling, even by Africa's major league standards. There was a book about it some time back, called In the Land of Magic Soldiers: A Story of White and Black in West Africa. I invite you to read my Amazon review of it here. An excerpt from the book, a horror-stunned western missionary speaking:

"I worry," she said, voice quavering in the lantern-light, "that the ability for long-range planning just isn't there yet."
Two decades of work might amount to nothing. For in Foria, and in much of the Kuronko region their mission had covered, the increments of progress they'd brought had been largely wiped out during the war: water pipes had been vandalized and left useless; farms had shrunk for lack of seed programs to supplement war-diminished yields; immunization campaigns had been impossible; the birthing kits, with their scissors and plastic mats, had been looted; a little health clinic and dispensary they'd built in Foria was rubble. And now the future, the school, could easily collapse, the project one last sign of futility. "We need more time, at least another two years." Mary's body was so motionless and straight in her rickety chair that I almost didn't see her tears.

211 Irenicum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:44:30pm

re: #175 iceweasel

Thanks Ice, I appreciate your words. As a theist myself, I'll listen to a clear thinking atheist any day before listening to a fantasy prone Christian. Thankfully there are many critical thinking Christians as well. I try to listen to them and steer my Christian friends there way as much as possible. But if an atheist has something important to say about human well=being, kudos! Truth is truth no matter where it comes from.

212 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:44:39pm

re: #190 cliffster

My brother got HIV in 1993. He's still alive today. He had no insurance from 1990-2005. Or something close to that.

Updings for your brother's survival.

213 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:44:42pm

re: #201 iceweasel

Yes, what she said!
You can write my flounce, in the never never land style of Peter Pan!
Or some obscure Scottish thing!

Hope you two are well?

I am PATIENTLY waiting to see a picture of HH's blue hair.
PATIENTLY. WAITING.
LOL!

214 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:44:44pm

re: #204 jamesfirecat

The "pols" are who exactly?

Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams ... first line in the link.

215 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:44:46pm

re: #197 jamesfirecat

How much money did your brother spend on his treatment?

My brother was and is broke as shit, as was I back then. And the rest of my family. He'd be dead if it wasn't for those evil American pharmaceutical companies, and if it wasn't for a few organizations funded by some very generous people.

216 HoosierHoops  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:45:13pm

re: #202 cliffster

been meaning to tell you.. sorry HH. Good game, I thought Colts were a better team but the Saints pulled it off.

Thanks dude.. I dyed my hair blue for nothing this week..
*wink*
Deep inside I am happy for them... Everybody loves the Saints!

217 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:45:15pm

re: #198 Gus 802

Pat Robertson represents a uniquely American brand of commercialized religion. It is not unlike fast food as it too is mass produced for quick sale over the television sets. A type of quasi-religion inspired by advertising. It began with self educated and self anointed preachers already representing a caricature of themselves.

Absolutely. Have you ever read Wendy Kaminer's book "I'm dysfunctional, you're dysfunctional"? It's from the early 90's and was about the self-help/recovery craze in America, but she links it with American religious traditions, the Great Awakening, other similar issues.
I think it could be updated for today with The Prosperity Gospel and more. A peculiarly american kind of 'get salvation quick' mentality. Also ties into our conversation last night about Providence.

218 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:45:17pm

re: #188 hugh59

There are plenty of nut jobs on the liberal/progressive side of the aisle and your side does little to keep them under control.

I don't see them writing the party platform, like the theocons currently do in the GOP, so I quess they're not that out of hand.

Conservatives have "an entire cable network" on its side and hundreds of radio stations...whoa. You forgot to mention the National Review, the editorial page of the Wall Street Journal, and the other conservative publications.

So why are you claiming to be ignored? You're obviously getting lots of attention, just no body willing to listen to the silliness anymore.

Liberals have ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN, the New York Times, the Washington Post, and a large number of other news outlets, magazines, and publications.

reality has a liberal bias. Although the false equivelancy given to the the right when spouting outright falsehoods would lead me to believe that the media isn't so much biased toward conservative or liberal but more toward getting people to watch.

"...you aren't being ignored, you're being dismissed." You are going to ignore ideas from people with a different perspective because you don't like what some of the other people on that side are doing. Then you do not deserve to call yourself a "progressive." You are just looking for an excuse to ignore the other side. Enjoy your ignorance.

I don't ignore sensible conservative ideas, but to me they need to come up with some before I can pay attention to them.

219 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:45:24pm

re: #213 Floral Giraffe

Yes, what she said!
You can write my flounce, in the never never land style of Peter Pan!
Or some obscure Scottish thing!

Hope you two are well?

I am PATIENTLY waiting to see a picture of HH's blue hair.
PATIENTLY. WAITING.
LOL!

You and me both.
But I don't think we're on his share list.
*sob*

220 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:45:27pm

re: #195 brookly red

well when the pols from Canada come to the US for health care...

[Link: www.nationalpost.com...]

it should tell you something.

Image: background_brick_wall.jpg

221 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:45:47pm

re: #200 euphgeek

Well it depends on how well thought out they are. But merely dismissing something as "stupid" without even providing so much as a cursory explanation certainly doesn't show any depth.

Sorry to disappoint you. Welcome to LGF, btw

222 Gus  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:45:49pm

re: #195 brookly red

well when the pols from Canada come to the US for health care...

[Link: www.nationalpost.com...]

it should tell you something.

When a millionaire comes to the USA for treatment that doesn't tell me much of anything. The treatment Danny Williams can afford is above the means of the average American let alone uninsured Americans:

Williams practised law from 1972, becoming a financially successful lawyer, and was appointed Queen's Counsel in 1984. While still in law school, Williams led a consortium of businesspeople that was granted one of Newfoundland's first cable television licenses and started the company "Avalon Cablevision". Through major acquisitions and the very early adoption of the Internet ISP business (via theZone dial-up and later RoadRunner high-speed cable Internet services), he built Cable Atlantic into one of the largest communications companies in Atlantic Canada. As the principal owner, he sold the telecommunications portion of the business for $76 million dollars in April 2000 to "GT Group Telecom Inc." (who were bought by Bell Canada Inc. in 2006). Then 8 months later the cable TV portion of Cable Atlantic was sold to Rogers Cable Inc. for $152 million in November 2000. This sale plus the success of his extensive law practice gave him the nickname of "Danny Millions" during the early 2000s.

223 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:46:29pm

re: #209 reine.de.tout

Did you click the link?
The one mentioned in that article is Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams - he will undergo heart surgery later this week in the United States.

So if rich people with lots of money come to the US to have expensive surgeries that must prove that the care for the common man in the US is better as well!

///

224 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:46:39pm

re: #205 HoosierHoops

Thanks for making a dig when the Colts lose.. The Colts are one class act in The NFL.. They can hold their head high...
They have earned it..Good young men

good enough to get to the SB, that's something

225 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:46:41pm

re: #208 albusteve

re: #177 PT Barnum

it takes balls to say "Hey we fucked up and are going to do things differently"


I still have not heard him apologize for saying "Typical white person" nor for his "Bitter clingers to guns and religion" remark, if we want to talk about apologizing.

Good night all.

226 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:46:43pm

Many an atheist is a believer without knowing it just as many a believer is an atheist without knowing it. You can sincerely believe there is no God and live as though there is. You can sincerely believe there is a God and live as though there isn't.
-- Frederick Buechner

227 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:47:33pm

re: #104 Lateralis

The power brokers behind the scene like George Soros. From my political view Pelosi and Reed are part of that contingent also.

You consider Pelosi and Reed the "fringe", the equivalent of Birthers? Really?

228 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:47:41pm

re: #198 Gus 802

Pat Robertson represents a uniquely American brand of commercialized religion. It is not unlike fast food as it too is mass produced for quick sale over the television sets. A type of quasi-religion inspired by advertising. It began with self educated and self anointed preachers already representing a caricature of themselves.

It's more than that for me. Robertson is evil. If he did this thing, brought diamond mining equipment to Taylor's mines, especially as late as 1994 when the illegal market had been operating for some years, he's just an evil, wicked man.

229 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:47:42pm

re: #222 Gus 802

I guess he just wanted the best...

230 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:47:51pm

re: #223 jamesfirecat

So if rich people with lots of money come to the US to have expensive surgeries that must prove that the care for the common man in the US is better as well!

///


Whatever.
You asked "who".
I answered.

231 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:48:21pm

re: #229 brookly red

I guess he just wanted the best...

Yes America has the best healthcare money can buy, how many people have the money to buy it though?

232 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:49:09pm

re: #196 albusteve
You gotta admit, once the Democrats had their Supermajority Senate, the holy grail they'd been searching for, things really started to work in D . C. Just look at all the legislation they passed!
Oh wait...

233 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:49:17pm

re: #210 The Sanity Inspector

The civil war in Sierra Leone was soul-suckingly appalling, even by Africa's major league standards. There was a book about it some time back, called In the Land of Magic Soldiers: A Story of White and Black in West Africa. I invite you to read my Amazon review of it here. An excerpt from the book, a horror-stunned western missionary speaking:

"I worry," she said, voice quavering in the lantern-light, "that the ability for long-range planning just isn't there yet."
Two decades of work might amount to nothing. For in Foria, and in much of the Kuronko region their mission had covered, the increments of progress they'd brought had been largely wiped out during the war: water pipes had been vandalized and left useless; farms had shrunk for lack of seed programs to supplement war-diminished yields; immunization campaigns had been impossible; the birthing kits, with their scissors and plastic mats, had been looted; a little health clinic and dispensary they'd built in Foria was rubble. And now the future, the school, could easily collapse, the project one last sign of futility. "We need more time, at least another two years." Mary's body was so motionless and straight in her rickety chair that I almost didn't see her tears.

I had a lot of friends adopting in the late 90's. Many considered Sierra Leone babies. Many were war victims. Horrible, just beyond words.

234 Gus  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:49:40pm

re: #229 brookly red

I guess he just wanted the best...

That would make more sense. I just think it's a little more complex. We do have the best medical care but it's not for everyone. That will probably always exist since that's a fact of life. If one is wealthy they can afford better medical care, legal representation, food, etc.

235 PT Barnum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:49:55pm

well I gotta go...g'nite all...

236 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:50:04pm

re: #209 reine.de.tout
The fool! Doesn't he know how broken our health care system is?

237 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:50:28pm

re: #229 brookly red

I guess he just wanted the best...

Volkswagen auto group makes one of the best cars money can buy, the Bugatti Veyron.

How many people can buy it? Is it relevant to the average car buyer?

Sound health care policy isn't about "best". best is completely irrelevant. Policy has to serve everyone, not just the very rich.

238 Unakite  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:50:35pm

re: #133 iceweasel

There are other links in this thread establishing the connection.

Thanks, Just got on (well, a little while ago) and trying to catch up (I made it this far).

239 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:50:39pm

re: #231 jamesfirecat

Yes America has the best healthcare money can buy, how many people have the money to buy it though?

your right, let's reduce the standard for everyone.

240 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:51:09pm

re: #234 Gus 802

That would make more sense. I just think it's a little more complex. We do have the best medical care but it's not for everyone. That will probably always exist since that's a fact of life. If one is wealthy they can afford better medical care, legal representation, food, etc.

well yes...

241 SpaceJesus  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:51:11pm

apparently some guy named robert jeffress is giving robertson a run for his money these days i guess

[Link: www.rightwingwatch.org...]

242 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:51:27pm

re: #207 SanFranciscoZionist

Did he pay for care out of pocket?

Nope. Lots of good people out there. Lots of them in the health care industry.

243 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:51:41pm

re: #205 HoosierHoops

You had better send your picture to Reine.
I have no threats.
But, you promised.

Winston said you would, too!
(He's STILL giggling!)
*waves*

244 Gus  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:52:14pm

re: #228 marjoriemoon

It's more than that for me. Robertson is evil. If he did this thing, brought diamond mining equipment to Taylor's mines, especially as late as 1994 when the illegal market had been operating for some years, he's just an evil, wicked man.

True. I was looking into the Charles Taylor-Pat Robertson connection last month. A lot of the things that took place was seemingly underhanded utilizing aircraft for the charitable arm of Pat Robertson's organization.

245 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:52:26pm

re: #231 jamesfirecat
Anyone in America rushed into an ER at a hospital that has a level one trauma center and receives care worth hundreds of thousands with no questions asked might disagree with you.

246 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:52:37pm

re: #239 brookly red

your right, let's reduce the standard for everyone.

You're right I suppose the fact that American has the best healthcare in the world (sparkle) means more than the fact that we're also the only advanced/industrialized country in the world where people go bankrupt because they can't pay their medical bills.

247 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:52:45pm

re: #209 reine.de.tout

Did you click the link?
The one mentioned in that article is Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams - he will undergo heart surgery later this week in the United States.

This link has already been covered, alreadfy been discussed.

I'm less concerned about what extremely rich people do for their health care. I'm more concerned about people in my income bracket, and whether they have access to health care. My premiums have doubled in the last few years, and my access to care has gone down.

I can look through the showroom window at the Porsche 911 Turbo, but I still drive a Volkswagen. ;-)

248 swamprat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:52:47pm

Tastes great!

Less filling!


A POX ON BOTH THEIR HOUSES.

249 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:53:08pm

re: #226 The Sanity Inspector

Many an atheist is a believer without knowing it just as many a believer is an atheist without knowing it. You can sincerely believe there is no God and live as though there is. You can sincerely believe there is a God and live as though there isn't.
-- Frederick Buechner

Cute, but utterly flawed. Many atheists live moral lives, and that isn't 'living as if there were a God'.

250 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:53:09pm

re: #245 tradewind

Anyone in America rushed into an ER at a hospital that has a level one trauma center and receives care worth hundreds of thousands with no questions asked might disagree with you.

Ever tried to get phsycial therapy in an ER?

251 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:53:10pm

re: #15 teleskiguy

Frank Zappa was right about televangelists!

Of course he was. Frank's the man.

252 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:53:45pm

re: #246 jamesfirecat

You're right I suppose the fact that American has the best healthcare in the world (sparkle) means more than the fact that we're also the only advanced/industrialized country in the world where people go bankrupt because they can't pay their medical bills.

I had a choice to buy health insurance or a plasm TV... I bought the insurance.

253 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:54:05pm

re: #252 brookly red

I had a choice to buy health insurance or a plasm TV... I bought the insurance.

Good for you, how much do you make a year?

254 darthstar  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:54:08pm

re: #15 teleskiguy

Frank Zappa was right about televangelists!

Frank was right about a number of things.

255 HoosierHoops  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:54:39pm

re: #230 reine.de.tout

Whatever.
You asked "who".
I answered.

Note to self: Next Super Bowl hang out at reine's house and eat all her food..
What a game

256 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:54:41pm

re: #253 jamesfirecat

Good for you, how much do you make a year?

I am unemployed...

257 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:55:24pm

re: #166 PT Barnum

apparently I can't count...

Channeling Yoda: Understand you I did.

258 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:55:41pm

re: #246 jamesfirecat

You're right I suppose the fact that American has the best healthcare in the world (sparkle) means more than the fact that we're also the only advanced/industrialized country in the world where people go bankrupt because they can't pay their medical bills.

Round and round we go. Nobody wants to hear the facts, they have their balkanized positions, they have their tribalism, they have their football team, and they're sticking to it.

If Obama pushes HCR through, the thread here where it breaks, I probably won't be around for it, because it'll likely resemble the extremely ugly SOTU thread.

259 hugh59  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:55:53pm

re: #218 PT Barnum

You are right that conservatives are getting their message out. Fox News is frequently the highest rated cable news network. Let me clarify what I meant by "ignored." What I should have said is "ignored by many people who identify themselves as liberals or progressives."

I am not asking for you to get your bad actors under control; I know that is impossible. By stating that you are "dismissing" conservative ideas until conservatives clean up their act, you are just justifying your own closed mindedness.

"I don't ignore sensible conservative ideas, but to me they need to come up with some before I can pay attention to them." Seems to me that you villify all conservatives and ignore all of us. There are a lot of different (and sometimes conflicting) ideas on the conservative side of the aisle. We are not monolithic (no more than liberals are monolithic). If you really listened to us, I think you probably could find some ideas you could agree with. I am pretty good at finding agreement with people. Too bad I can't meet you for a beer (or drink of your choice) and have a fun night talking things over.

260 Learned Mother of Zion  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:55:57pm

re: #231 jamesfirecat

Yes America has the best healthcare money can buy, how many people have the money to buy it though?

I don't know, but there are a whole bunch of them swarming across the border (from Mexico and from Canada)

261 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:55:58pm

re: #256 brookly red

I am unemployed...

So your healthcare costs you how much a year?

262 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:56:03pm

re: #236 tradewind

The fool! Doesn't he know how broken our health care system is?

pffft. No kidding!

re: #234 Gus 802

That would make more sense. I just think it's a little more complex. We do have the best medical care but it's not for everyone. That will probably always exist since that's a fact of life. If one is wealthy they can afford better medical care, legal representation, food, etc.

And Gus, I will go out on a limb and say that MOST people who desperately need critical care, get it. There are stories of those who don't, and we all have one, including me, but that situation developed from the person having a quack doctor rather than lack of insurance.

I don't know what it's like in other states. In Louisiana, there is a charity hospital SYSTEM which includes clinic care for the indigent and uninsured.
The only real trauma center in the State was at Charity Hospital in New Orleans.

For those who are caught in the middle - insured but poor enough that they can't pay deductibles and co-pays - well, I cannot tell you how many fund-raising jambalaya lunches I ever purchased or participated in sponsoring in my lifetime to raise money to help out - this was done through church or through work, or just through the neighborhood. MOST people get care when they need it.

263 euphgeek  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:56:18pm

re: #221 cliffster

Sorry to disappoint you. Welcome to LGF, btw

Thanks. I was hoping to get another point of view, though.

264 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:56:37pm

re: #258 WindUpBird

Round and round we go. Nobody wants to hear the facts, they have their balkanized positions, they have their tribalism, they have their football team, and they're sticking to it.

If Obama pushes HCR through, the thread here where it breaks, I probably won't be around for it, because it'll likely resemble the extremely ugly SOTU thread.

Okay then, I'm listening, where am I wrong?

265 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:56:38pm

why is med school so expensive?...why is it so hard to get into a program?...where are all the doctors gonna come from to maintain the quality of care when another 45m people are dumped into the system?...doctors are so disgusted with reimbursement they are leaving practice...how does J Edwards reconcile shutting down the OB/GYN business in N Carolina?...there is fraud, corruption and endless streams of paperwork and hoops to jump through...our system needs to clean up it's act before the feds take over the entire industry

266 HoosierHoops  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:56:58pm

re: #243 Floral Giraffe

You had better send your picture to Reine.
I have no threats.
But, you promised.

Winston said you would, too!
(He's STILL giggling!)
*waves*

I'll get them out this week to reine ...Yes..My hair is bright frigging blue..Not playschool Blue...No real Blue! *wink*

267 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:57:00pm

re: #264 jamesfirecat

I suspect he agrees with you :p

268 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:57:37pm

re: #261 jamesfirecat

So your healthcare costs you how much a year?

right now, 381.00 a month.

269 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:57:38pm

re: #263 euphgeek

Thanks. I was hoping to get another point of view, though.

People should pay for their own shit. Or find people who will willingly help them with things they can't pay for. That's my point of view. I'm fairly certain we don't have a lot of common ground.

270 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:57:40pm

re: #246 jamesfirecat
It's Not a Perfect World.
Life is Not Fair.
You Can't Always Get What You Want.
etc etc, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.
Question: Why did the French, who give free medical care to every citizen, let thousands of their seniors roast to death in the heat of a few summers ago?

271 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:57:54pm

re: #265 albusteve

stream-of-consciousness talking points!

Its like a window into the soul.

272 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:58:10pm

re: #247 WindUpBird

This link has already been covered, alreadfy been discussed.

I'm less concerned about what extremely rich people do for their health care. I'm more concerned about people in my income bracket, and whether they have access to health care. My premiums have doubled in the last few years, and my access to care has gone down.

I can look through the showroom window at the Porsche 911 Turbo, but I still drive a Volkswagen. ;-)

Good grief!
His post was 204, mine was 209 - give me a break, wouldja?

273 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:58:16pm

re: #260 Alouette

I don't know, but there are a whole bunch of them swarming across the border (from Mexico and from Canada)

So far I only see the millionares doing it. I've yet to hear the story of the poor Mexican who desperately wanted to come to the US so he could take part in our healthcare system.

I do know of some people in the US who have moved to MEXICO for better healthcare though...

274 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:58:35pm

re: #246 jamesfirecat

You're right I suppose the fact that American has the best healthcare in the world (sparkle) means more than the fact that we're also the only advanced/industrialized country in the world where people go bankrupt because they can't pay their medical bills.

big screen TVs are way more important

275 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:58:52pm

Religion inspiring atrocities? WHO'DA THUNK IT!

276 jaunte  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:59:38pm

re: #273 jamesfirecat

I've yet to hear the story of the poor Mexican who desperately wanted to come to the US so he could take part in our healthcare system.


I'll bet he's too smart to be talking about it.

277 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:59:41pm

re: #268 brookly red

right now, 381.00 a month.

of course I could file the Meidicaid... but I don't roll like that.

278 Gus  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:59:42pm

re: #245 tradewind

Anyone in America rushed into an ER at a hospital that has a level one trauma center and receives care worth hundreds of thousands with no questions asked might disagree with you.

True but beyond the initial trauma care you will be treated up to a certain point. Once stabilized (under the guidelines and which can go up to weeks or months) you are released. There is no "equal" treatment. Usually this will leave out extended care, reconstructive surgery, pharmaceuticals, physical therapy, etc. Plus, you will be billed and that can sometimes reach 6 figures.

279 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 7:59:43pm

re: #266 HoosierHoops

I'll get them out this week to reine ...Yes..My hair is bright frigging blue..Not playschool Blue...No real Blue! *wink*

hehehe!
Can't wait!

280 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:00:00pm

re: #258 WindUpBird

Round and round we go. Nobody wants to hear the facts, they have their balkanized positions, they have their tribalism, they have their football team, and they're sticking to it.

If Obama pushes HCR through, the thread here where it breaks, I probably won't be around for it, because it'll likely resemble the extremely ugly SOTU thread.

I avoid coming here for what I know will be ugly wingnut outbreaks. I celebrate elsewhere with the folks who think like me. :)
The wingnuts here (and yes, there are still some) are extremely, incredibly ugly in 'victory' (the scott brown thread).

In defeat they are far worse, and I am not the sort of person who takes pleasure in their pain. They get too ugly.

Every once in a while, if people are bringing you down, just go back and read a little of one of the 2008 Election Night Threads. :) Jimmah pointed me to it recently.
It's saved me many a time from saying something mean here.

281 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:00:45pm

re: #270 tradewind


Question: Why did the French, who give free medical care to every citizen, let thousands of their seniors roast to death in the heat of a few summers ago?

Answer: POLITICS.

Of course, somehow I think the reason the Europeans aren't working more on reforming their own healthcare systems is that they have this fear of falling backwards into the sort of system in the United States...

282 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:01:18pm

re: #275 laZardo

Religion inspiring atrocities? WHO'DA THUNK IT!

This isn't religion. This is one very greedy, very self absorbed man. There are a number of Christian missions in Africa, particularly in the Sierra Leone who saved a lot of these children at their own personal risk.

283 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:01:23pm

re: #278 Gus 802

also, everyone else foots the bill, at greatly increased cost.


Its really 'destructive inefficient public healthcare' or 'real public healthcare'.

284 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:01:48pm

re: #266 HoosierHoops

SO WHAT ABOUT THEM SAINTS?

285 Irenicum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:01:52pm

re: #275 laZardo

Yeah those fundie Soviets and Mao were raging religionists. Right. Violence springs up from the human impulse to control and have power over others, and humans will use whatever convenient ploy is available to them, whether it's religion or an atheistic ideology.

286 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:02:16pm

re: #249 iceweasel

Cute, but utterly flawed. Many atheists live moral lives, and that isn't 'living as if there were a God'.

Not by itself, it isn't.

If Morality was Christianity, Socrates was the Saviour.
-- William Blake

287 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:02:16pm

re: #273 jamesfirecat
Excuse me... thousands of Mexican women drag themselves across the border every year to give birth in hospitals in CA, AZ, and TX.
And you can hardly blame them. They don't pay, and they immediately qualify for medicaid for their infants, along with WIC subsidies, etc.

288 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:02:22pm

re: #143 cliffster

public option. whether he gave in on it or not, that was clearly on his agenda.

FAR LEFT LEFTY LEFTERSON LEFT LEFTISHNESS LEFT COAST LEFTOCRACY

*ahem*

Meanwhile, a true American patriot made out of Moms and Apple Pies, he valiantly and bravely supports a system that is free to cancel people's insurance because they got a little TOO sick, or got sick at the wrong time. I notice the facts of health care never show up here like the talking points do. Recission? People pretend the practice doesn't exist. Pre-existing conditions? More pretending. Stop getting sick! Don't you love America? Salute the bald eagle some more, and maybe that'll cure your cancer, hippie!

289 euphgeek  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:02:34pm

re: #269 cliffster

People should pay for their own shit. Or find people who will willingly help them with things they can't pay for. That's my point of view. I'm fairly certain we don't have a lot of common ground.

OK, I can agree with you on that. But what happens when neither option is available? There are quite a few people out there like that.

290 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:02:57pm

re: #266 HoosierHoops

We just want to see it!
For the entertainment value!
Well, and so we have something to compare it to, next years "Singapore Red!". LOL!

291 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:03:20pm

re: #278 Gus 802

True but beyond the initial trauma care you will be treated up to a certain point. Once stabilized (under the guidelines and which can go up to weeks or months) you are released. There is no "equal" treatment. Usually this will leave out extended care, reconstructive surgery, pharmaceuticals, physical therapy, etc. Plus, you will be billed and that can sometimes reach 6 figures.

This is too often ignored by those who insist that everyone who needs medical treatment in the US, gets the best medical treatment available. The ugly truth is that we need government interference to lower costs of health care. If that offends or enrages the anti-health care crowd, so be it.

292 Gus  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:03:27pm

re: #283 windsagio

also, everyone else foots the bill, at greatly increased cost.

Its really 'destructive inefficient public healthcare' or 'real public healthcare'.

Yes. The obvious point is that we still need health care reform. Even with what we have now people are paying more and that includes care that is given at trauma centers and emergency rooms being used as the family doctor.

293 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:03:34pm

re: #268 brookly red

right now, 381.00 a month.


381*12= 4572

Average cost for American Family $15,000

[Link: economix.blogs.nytimes.com...]


Good for you, you've somehow found a way to pay a third less than the Average American does...

294 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:03:40pm

re: #280 iceweasel

I avoid coming here for what I know will be ugly wingnut outbreaks. I celebrate elsewhere with the folks who think like me. :)
The wingnuts here (and yes, there are still some) are extremely, incredibly ugly in 'victory' (the scott brown thread).

In defeat they are far worse, and I am not the sort of person who takes pleasure in their pain. They get too ugly.

Every once in a while, if people are bringing you down, just go back and read a little of one of the 2008 Election Night Threads. :) Jimmah pointed me to it recently.
It's saved me many a time from saying something mean here.

or one could just log off and indulge in real worldly endeavors ...blogs are just a little glimpse, a small slice...be careful you don't get consumed

295 Learned Mother of Zion  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:03:58pm

re: #273 jamesfirecat

So far I only see the millionares doing it. I've yet to hear the story of the poor Mexican who desperately wanted to come to the US so he could take part in our healthcare system.

I do know of some people in the US who have moved to MEXICO for better healthcare though...

SO HOW TO U ESPLAYNE ALL TEH ILLEGALZ FLOODING ARE EMURJENCIE RUMZ!1!1!

296 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:04:03pm

re: #285 Irenicum

Yeah those fundie Soviets and Mao were raging religionists.

THAT religion is the cult of personality. GLORIOUS MOTHERLAND and all.

/though I find it really funny how Che Guevara is now effectively a capitalist icon.

297 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:04:17pm

re: #278 Gus 802
'You will be billed'?
LOL.
You can't get blood from a turnip, as the saying goes. They know they will not get paid.
I am not complaining, by the way... I think it is fantastic that our medical care is so state of the art that we can do this. ' Stabilized ' in America is probably worth more than months of care somewhere else in many cases.

298 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:04:25pm

re: #286 The Sanity Inspector

Not by itself, it isn't.

If Morality was Christianity, Socrates was the Saviour.
-- William Blake

The premise "If morality was Christianity" is flawed to begin with, and what Plato showed in the Euthyphro via Socrates was that actions are holy, good, or right independent of whether the gods love them.

LVQ and I got into this recently one late night. :)

299 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:04:30pm

re: #264 jamesfirecat

Okay then, I'm listening, where am I wrong?

I'm on your side, dude! You're the rational actor in the middle, I've been updinging your points.

The right wing talking points are all over these comments. The left wing talking points are the crazy Ed Schultz types who want to destroy a bill because it's not perfect. Forgetting how imperfect SS was when it passed, etc.

You haven't said anything yet i disagree with. :)

300 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:04:39pm

re: #282 marjoriemoon

This isn't religion. This is one very greedy, very self absorbed man. There are a number of Christian missions in Africa, particularly in the Sierra Leone who saved a lot of these children at their own personal risk.

it is exactly religion

301 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:05:44pm

re: #272 reine.de.tout

Good grief!
His post was 204, mine was 209 - give me a break, wouldja?

sorry, I didn't mean to jump on you. Just quite frustrated at the rich-PM-guy-gets-great-health-care talking point, because it's showed up so many times. :P

302 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:06:09pm

re: #289 euphgeek

OK, I can agree with you on that. But what happens when neither option is available? There are quite a few people out there like that.

Yup, things are not black and white, and something has to be done about the fuzziness. But I think "have the government do everything" is stupid. And, I didn't click through the replies, but I think that's where this started.

303 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:06:11pm

re: #297 tradewind

so you don't mind paying for all those ER visits in the mode of greatly increased hospital and doctors fees?


They're simply not free, its just not necessarily the subjects that are paying for them.

304 Vambo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:06:31pm

I guess it's true - the devil can quote scripture to suit his own ends.

And people wonder why secularism is on the rise.

305 jaunte  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:06:32pm

re: #293 jamesfirecat

My company (34 employees) pays about $1100 a month for families and $550 a month for single coverage through Blue Cross Blue Shield, for medical and dental coverage.

306 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:06:37pm

re: #297 tradewind

'You will be billed'?
LOL.
You can't get blood from a turnip, as the saying goes. They know they will not get paid.
I am not complaining, by the way... I think it is fantastic that our medical care is so state of the art that we can do this. ' Stabilized ' in America is probably worth more than months of care somewhere else in many cases.

I get first class medical care and pay almost nothing for it...it can be done in certain circumstances...I love the feds now, they give me my money back

307 Gus  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:06:57pm

re: #297 tradewind

'You will be billed'?
LOL.
You can't get blood from a turnip, as the saying goes. They know they will not get paid.
I am not complaining, by the way... I think it is fantastic that our medical care is so state of the art that we can do this. ' Stabilized ' in America is probably worth more than months of care somewhere else in many cases.

Well, they will bill you. After a couple of months or a year they sell those unpayed balances to a collection agency and it is effectively refinanced. That means you get a collection agency on your tail and that can lead to legal action if ignored.

308 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:07:04pm

re: #297 tradewind

'You will be billed'?
LOL.
You can't get blood from a turnip, as the saying goes. They know they will not get paid.
I am not complaining, by the way... I think it is fantastic that our medical care is so state of the art that we can do this. ' Stabilized ' in America is probably worth more than months of care somewhere else in many cases.

Do you know what happens when they have to treat someone who ends up not being able to pay?

Do you know what they do to keep from going out of business?

They raise the price on the rest of us to make ends meet.

We're already paying for poor people's medical care, we're just doing it in the most inefficient way possible.

309 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:07:46pm

re: #299 WindUpBird

I'm on your side, dude! You're the rational actor in the middle, I've been updinging your points.

The right wing talking points are all over these comments. The left wing talking points are the crazy Ed Schultz types who want to destroy a bill because it's not perfect. Forgetting how imperfect SS was when it passed, etc.

You haven't said anything yet i disagree with. :)

Oh sorry, guess I was just being naturally defensive, I thought I was "the far left" because I don't really see anyone to the left of me here...

310 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:07:59pm

re: #277 brookly red

You're not selling your soul if you use Medicaid. It's there for a reason, and when you get a good job Uncle will tax the hell out of you. It's not a perfect system, but it makes some sense.

311 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:08:00pm

re: #300 albusteve

it is exactly religion

How do you figure? I mean Robertson used his status as a religious leader to do his evil deeds, but to judge Christianity from such a person is ridiculous. The Christians stopped having holy wars for a long time.

312 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:08:04pm

re: #289 euphgeek

OK, I can agree with you on that. But what happens when neither option is available? There are quite a few people out there like that.

If this can work in Louisiana, as it has in one form or another since the mid-1700's, it surely can be made to work in any state - no massive federal legislation or involvement needed.

313 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:08:05pm

So...to recap.

The health care system in the United States needs reform. We can very much all agree on that.

Exactly how that system needs to be reformed...that's the debate.

314 Vambo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:08:29pm

re: #297 tradewind

'You will be billed'?
LOL.
You can't get blood from a turnip, as the saying goes. They know they will not get paid.
I am not complaining, by the way... I think it is fantastic that our medical care is so state of the art that we can do this. ' Stabilized ' in America is probably worth more than months of care somewhere else in many cases.

Doctors are not getting paid??? How are you ok with this?

315 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:08:46pm

re: #308 jamesfirecat

Do you know what happens when they have to treat someone who ends up not being able to pay?

Do you know what they do to keep from going out of business?

They raise the price on the rest of us to make ends meet.

We're already paying for poor people's medical care, we're just doing it in the most inefficient way possible.

so call in the feds!...masters of efficiency!

316 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:08:56pm

re: #309 jamesfirecat

I'm probably to the left of you >>

There is no real far left I've seen on LGF tho'

317 bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:09:16pm

re: #297 tradewind

'You will be billed'?
LOL.
You can't get blood from a turnip, as the saying goes. They know they will not get paid.
I am not complaining, by the way... I think it is fantastic that our medical care is so state of the art that we can do this. ' Stabilized ' in America is probably worth more than months of care somewhere else in many cases.

Clearly true. While the US system is currently overwhelmed with fraud, the care an uninsured person in the US gets is still superior to the care that a fully covered person gets under the NHS in Britain. The difference is the bill.

318 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:09:30pm

re: #190 cliffster

My brother got HIV in 1993. He's still alive today. He had no insurance from 1990-2005. Or something close to that.

My uncle got HIV in prison but wasn't diagnosed until he almost died from pneumonia. The only reason he's alive today is because my Mom went down to Oregon and got him signed up for every socialist program out therere: #215 cliffster

My brother was and is broke as shit, as was I back then. And the rest of my family. He'd be dead if it wasn't for those evil American pharmaceutical companies, and if it wasn't for a few organizations funded by some very generous people.

Yeah, those people are called taxpayers, unless you're suggesting that your broke as shit brother never, ever "stooped so low" as to avail himself to the kind of public assistance which is his birthright as a citizen?

re: #242 cliffster

Nope. Lots of good people out there. Lots of them in the health care industry.

And lots of them in social work, who make health care possible for indigent people.

319 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:09:34pm

re: #311 marjoriemoon

How do you figure? I mean Robertson used his status as a religious leader to do his evil deeds, but to judge Christianity from such a person is ridiculous. The Christians stopped having holy wars for a long time.

Tell that to the Lord's Resistance Army.

320 bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:09:40pm

re: #316 windsagio

I'm probably to the left of you >>

There is no real far left I've seen on LGF tho'

No mirrors in your house?

321 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:09:45pm

re: #293 jamesfirecat

381*12= 4572

Average cost for American Family $15,000

[Link: economix.blogs.nytimes.com...]

Good for you, you've somehow found a way to pay a third less than the Average American does...

I pay about $6000 a year for coverage for the Roi and me.

322 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:09:53pm

re: #313 laZardo

So...to recap.

The health care system in the United States needs reform. We can very much all agree on that.

Exactly how that system needs to be reformed...that's the debate.

Can we all agree on that? Some people here seem (I'll admit I could be wrong) to think that its the best system in the world why else would the richest people in Canada come here?

323 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:10:25pm

re: #311 marjoriemoon

How do you figure? I mean Robertson used his status as a religious leader to do his evil deeds, but to judge Christianity from such a person is ridiculous. The Christians stopped having holy wars for a long time.

there you have it...it's no more complicated than that to me, and I won't nuance it

324 Learned Mother of Zion  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:10:51pm

re: #307 Gus 802

Well, they will bill you. After a couple of months or a year they sell those unpayed balances to a collection agency and it is effectively refinanced. That means you get a collection agency on your tail and that can lead to legal action if ignored.

There is always the option of bankruptcy.

/

325 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:11:03pm

re: #315 albusteve

so call in the feds!...masters of efficiency!

So should we fight our wars with state militias?

326 Unakite  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:11:06pm

re: #261 jamesfirecat

So your healthcare costs you how much a year?

As a conservative, I would say it's none of your business if he is paying it on his own.

327 Vambo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:11:12pm

re: #318 goddamnedfrank
...And lots of them in social work, who make health care possible for indigent people.

post of the year!

328 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:11:27pm

re: #292 Gus 802

Yes. The obvious point is that we still need health care reform. Even with what we have now people are paying more and that includes care that is given at trauma centers and emergency rooms being used as the family doctor.

...and one of the reasons that people are paying more is that many other people don't pay for services received at all.

329 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:11:32pm

re: #320 bagua

Arguing with the real far left would give you an aneurysm :p

330 HoosierHoops  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:11:37pm

re: #279 reine.de.tout

hehehe!
Can't wait!

I was going to dye Winston Blue for the Super Bowl..I caught so much shit from a girl at work..
He's gonna lick himself and die!
Die? He is going to die!
You want Winston to Die?
So he is going to lick himself?
Work with me Hoopster...You want him to die?
We are talking about licks Right?
Hoopster?
I really need to read the label...
The girl from worked won..But we need Winston spray painted blue...What a sissy!

331 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:11:45pm

re: #319 laZardo

Tell that to the Lord's Resistance Army.

In Africa, there is still civil war between the Christians and the Muslims, that is true. I was referring to the Crusades.

332 Vambo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:12:06pm

re: #326 Unakite

As a conservative, I would say it's none of your business if he is paying it on his own.

he's probably asking because it smells like bullshit.

333 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:12:10pm

re: #322 jamesfirecat

Can we all agree on that? Some people here seem (I'll admit I could be wrong) to think that its the best system in the world why else would the richest people in Canada come here?

The one thing the United States did rank #1 on that infamous list is "Responsiveness," meaning if you can afford the healthcare, you get HEALTHCARE.

The debate is mainly how we can get those costs down and still maintain the same level of 'responsiveness.'

334 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:12:39pm

re: #318 goddamnedfrank

... as to avail himself to the kind of public assistance which is his birthright as a citizen?

If he had gotten HIV 5 years earlier, he would be dead because there would have been no treatment. Who exactly, in that scenario, would have denied him of his "birthright"?

335 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:12:48pm

re: #313 laZardo
The insurance system in the US needs reform.
Let's start with that one, and when we get it right, next step.

336 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:13:04pm

re: #329 windsagio

Arguing with the real far left would give you an aneurysm :p

You mean there's worse? *shudder*

337 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:13:09pm

re: #323 albusteve

there you have it...it's no more complicated than that to me, and I won't nuance it

I'm sorry you see it that way. I don't.

338 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:13:32pm

re: #293 jamesfirecat

381*12= 4572

Average cost for American Family $15,000

[Link: economix.blogs.nytimes.com...]

Good for you, you've somehow found a way to pay a third less than the Average American does...

Well I am smarter then average... so how about we make health expenses tax deductible.

339 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:13:34pm

re: #336 Bagua

it would be like you arguing with yourself.

340 Gus  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:13:44pm

re: #328 The Sanity Inspector

...and one of the reasons that people are paying more is that many other people don't pay for services received at all.

Yes, that does aggravate the problem.

341 Aye Pod  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:13:48pm

re: #280 iceweasel

Every once in a while, if people are bringing you down, just go back and read a little of one of the 2008 Election Night Threads. :) Jimmah pointed me to it recently.
It's saved me many a time from saying something mean here.

Shhh! Listen...I think I can still hear them counting in Ohio - this ain't over yet!

LOL

342 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:13:58pm

re: #311 marjoriemoon

How do you figure? I mean Robertson used his status as a religious leader to do his evil deeds, but to judge Christianity from such a person is ridiculous. The Christians stopped having holy wars for a long time.

Oh no. Those violent holy wars have morphed into 'social conservative' crusades against gay Americans, women (and their male supporters) who want abortion safe & legal, and those in the public arena who don't want religion infused with science.

343 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:14:42pm

re: #338 brookly red

Well I am smarter then average... so how about we make health expenses tax deductible.

take away money from the feds!...SHOCK!

344 Irenicum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:14:45pm

re: #296 laZardo

I agree that Mao, Stalin, etc. are types of religion in a generic sense, esp. in their leader worship. But my point is that these systems were specifically irreligious in regards to spiritual matters. I.e. they were atheistic ideologies which contributed to the largest mass slaughter the world has ever seen. Theism certainly has its own checkered history, but so does it antagonist, state secularism. And the numbers aren't pretty in terms of the death toll. But then again I say this as a Christian who doesn't believe that faith or lack thereof should be enforced at the point of a gun.

345 Vambo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:14:51pm

re: #333 laZardo

The one thing the United States did rank #1 on that infamous list is "Responsiveness," meaning if you can afford the healthcare, you get HEALTHCARE.

must be comforting for people who can't afford the healthcare - "if only I had money, I wouldn't be dying. America really is great like that."

346 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:14:53pm

re: #288 WindUpBird

FAR LEFT LEFTY LEFTERSON LEFT LEFTISHNESS LEFT COAST LEFTOCRACY

*ahem*

Meanwhile, a true American patriot made out of Moms and Apple Pies, he valiantly and bravely supports a system that is free to cancel people's insurance because they got a little TOO sick, or got sick at the wrong time. I notice the facts of health care never show up here like the talking points do. Recission? People pretend the practice doesn't exist. Pre-existing conditions? More pretending. Stop getting sick! Don't you love America? Salute the bald eagle some more, and maybe that'll cure your cancer, hippie!

You are angry at a nation and a medical system that has given you and your family a standard of living and health unparalleled in human history.

347 What, me worry?  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:14:59pm

re: #342 eclectic infidel

Oh no. Those violent holy wars have morphed into 'social conservative' crusades against gay Americans, women (and their male supporters) who want abortion safe & legal, and those in the public arena who don't want religion infused with science.

As long as they don't go killing people and taking their land, they can be assholes.

348 Learned Mother of Zion  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:15:04pm

Lizards, only 4 days left to order your Israeli Chocolates and Wine for Purim from the Zionist Mall.

And, finally finished updating all the templates at the History Archive.

349 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:15:06pm

re: #334 cliffster
And if the healthcare plan Obama wants had been in place, there still wouldn't be a cure.
What evil drug research facility is going to take the risk?

350 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:15:33pm

re: #339 windsagio

it would be like you arguing with yourself.

You mean that's not normal? Oh dear.

351 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:15:36pm

re: #345 Vambo

must be comforting for people who can't afford the healthcare - "if only I had money, I wouldn't be dying. America really is great like that."

Unfortunately.

352 Unakite  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:15:49pm

re: #273 jamesfirecat

So far I only see the millionares doing it. I've yet to hear the story of the poor Mexican who desperately wanted to come to the US so he could take part in our healthcare system.

I do know of some people in the US who have moved to MEXICO for better healthcare though...

1, Cheaper is not always better.
2. Lots of people from Canada come to the US for better health care. Maybe they should continue on to Mexico...or maybe not.

353 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:15:53pm

re: #305 jaunte

My company (34 employees) pays about $1100 a month for families and $550 a month for single coverage through Blue Cross Blue Shield, for medical and dental coverage.

About 20 years ago, my employer provided health insurance free, as a bennie. Now the costs are eating them alive.

354 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:16:28pm

re: #322 jamesfirecat

Can we all agree on that? Some people here seem (I'll admit I could be wrong) to think that its the best system in the world why else would the richest people in Canada come here?

I have a great distaste for having the federal government getting involved in healthcare - really, health insurance is what we're talking about.

Some will dismiss it as a right wing "talking point".
It's more than that to me, it is a deeply held belief that having the feds involved in this just will not be some wonderful solution to the problem.

I agree, and most do, that something needs to be done to ensure people have access to health care. But federal government intervention is simply NOT the only way to do it.

States could do it on their own. My state does. Other states could do it. Having this done at the state level means that programs and care can be tailored to the specific needs of the state's citizens. It ain't perfect - but it works well without requiring massive federal legislation and intervention.

355 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:16:30pm

re: #345 Vambo

You angry tonight Vambo?

356 jaunte  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:17:12pm

re: #353 The Sanity Inspector

We cut our costs about 45% by shopping around; so far there isn't much difference in coverage. It pays a lot to shop.

357 euphgeek  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:17:32pm

re: #302 cliffster

Yup, things are not black and white, and something has to be done about the fuzziness. But I think "have the government do everything" is stupid. And, I didn't click through the replies, but I think that's where this started.

I wouldn't say that it's "stupid" since other countries use it. It sounds like you just don't think it would work well here for whatever reason.

358 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:18:15pm

re: #354 reine.de.tout

Louisiana, Tied for 39th out of 42 in the healthcare rankings?

Though I will admit, those are from 2007, so Katrina could've affected that.

359 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:18:42pm

re: #352 Unakite
Re jf's comment that

I do know of some people in the US who have moved to MEXICO for better healthcare though.


...I'm picturing those quack cancer cure clinics in mexico that use crystals and mud. And the stories of botched plastic surgeries done south of the border to save money aren't pretty.

360 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:18:55pm

re: #329 windsagio

Arguing with the real far left would give you an aneurysm :p

I turned to [Bertolt] Brecht and asked him why, if he felt the way he did about Jerome and the other American Communists, he kept on collaborating with them, particularly in view of their apparent approval or indifference to what was happening in the Soviet Union.[...] Brecht shrugged his shoulders and kept on making invidious remarks about the American Communist Party and asserted that only the Soviet Union and its Communist Party mattered. [...] But I argued...it was the Kremlin and above all Stalin himself who were responsible for the arrest and imprisonment of the opposition and their dependents. It was at this point that he said in words I have never forgotten, 'As for them, the more innocent they are, the more they deserve to be shot.' I was so taken aback that I thought I had misheard him. 'What are you saying?' I asked. He calmly repeated himself, 'The more innocent they are, the more they deserve to be shot.' [...] I was stunned by his words. 'Why? Why?' I exclaimed. All he did was smile at me in a nervous sort of way. I waited, but he said nothing after I repeated my question. I got up, went into the next room, and fetched his hat and coat. When I returned, he was still sitting in his chair, holding a drink in his hand. When he saw me with his hat and coat, he looked surprised. He put his glass down, rose, and with a sickly smile took his hat and coat and left. Neither of us said a word. I never saw him again.
-- Sidney Hook, Out of Step, 1985

361 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:19:04pm

re: #354 reine.de.tout

I have a great distaste for having the federal government getting involved in healthcare - really, health insurance is what we're talking about.

Some will dismiss it as a right wing "talking point".
It's more than that to me, it is a deeply held belief that having the feds involved in this just will not be some wonderful solution to the problem.

I agree, and most do, that something needs to be done to ensure people have access to health care. But federal government intervention is simply NOT the only way to do it.

States could do it on their own. My state does. Other states could do it. Having this done at the state level means that programs and care can be tailored to the specific needs of the state's citizens. It ain't perfect - but it works well without requiring massive federal legislation and intervention.

well said my dear

362 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:19:06pm

re: #255 HoosierHoops

Note to self: Next Super Bowl hang out at reine's house and eat all her food..
What a game

hehehe!
Great game, I thoroughly enjoyed it and I don't even really like football!
That game set records, I believe, for how many people were watching.

363 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:19:07pm

re: #354 reine.de.tout

I have a great distaste for having the federal government getting involved in healthcare - really, health insurance is what we're talking about.

Some will dismiss it as a right wing "talking point".
It's more than that to me, it is a deeply held belief that having the feds involved in this just will not be some wonderful solution to the problem.

I agree, and most do, that something needs to be done to ensure people have access to health care. But federal government intervention is simply NOT the only way to do it.

States could do it on their own. My state does. Other states could do it. Having this done at the state level means that programs and care can be tailored to the specific needs of the state's citizens. It ain't perfect - but it works well without requiring massive federal legislation and intervention.

As long as it leads to the possibility of there being a non profit insurance provider out there, I can live with that.

364 jaunte  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:19:17pm

re: #354 reine.de.tout

Government is for the most part very capable of organizing massive engineering projects: the TVA, Hoover Dam, going to the moon, the Normandy Invasion. Very bad at cost containment in the long run.

365 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:19:46pm

re: #334 cliffster

If he had gotten HIV 5 years earlier, he would be dead because there would have been no treatment. Who exactly, in that scenario, would have denied him of his "birthright"?

Fate. As long as we're in the way-back machine you may have noticed that neither of you are currently at risk of catching polio either, yeah you can thank a big bad government program for that one as well.

366 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:19:49pm

re: #350 Bagua

at least you're being funny :p

367 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:19:52pm

re: #354 reine.de.tout

I have a great distaste for having the federal government getting involved in healthcare - really, health insurance is what we're talking about.

Some will dismiss it as a right wing "talking point".
It's more than that to me, it is a deeply held belief that having the feds involved in this just will not be some wonderful solution to the problem.

I agree, and most do, that something needs to be done to ensure people have access to health care. But federal government intervention is simply NOT the only way to do it.

States could do it on their own. My state does. Other states could do it. Having this done at the state level means that programs and care can be tailored to the specific needs of the state's citizens. It ain't perfect - but it works well without requiring massive federal legislation and intervention.

Brilliant, right on.

368 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:19:54pm

re: #363 jamesfirecat

As long as it leads to the possibility of there being a non profit insurance provider out there, I can live with that.

I honestly don't care how it happens, as long as the care is available, and the feds are NOT involved. It can be done.

369 euphgeek  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:19:58pm

re: #312 reine.de.tout

If this can work in Louisiana, as it has in one form or another since the mid-1700's, it surely can be made to work in any state - no massive federal legislation or involvement needed.

Well that's great - I applaud them for doing that. Any idea why other states haven't implemented it?

370 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:20:01pm

re: #358 laZardo
IIRC, New Orleans is still without a level one hospital after Katrina. Hope that changes soon.
Oschner Clinic in New Orleans is one of the world's finest.

371 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:20:03pm

re: #332 Vambo

he's probably asking because it smells like bullshit.

blue shied through the freelancers union look it up then kiss my grits.

372 Vambo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:20:18pm

re: #355 Bagua

You angry tonight Vambo?

I'm always angry when the subject of health care in the USA comes up -- the industry ruined my life and the lives of many people I know. You all must be on some really great type of state or gov't assistance to have a high satisfaction with your care - yes, I'm assuming, but it's a fair assumption given the age bracket around here.

373 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:20:30pm

re: #346 Bagua

re: #349 tradewind

Yes. The money has to come from somewhere, the brains have to come from somewhere. People just don't get that there is not an infinite amount of money in the federal coffers. There's actually minus $12.4 trillion. And Congress can't pass a law banning AIDS, and *poof* HIV cocktail appears.

374 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:20:33pm

re: #358 laZardo

Louisiana, Tied for 39th out of 42 in the healthcare rankings?

Though I will admit, those are from 2007, so Katrina could've affected that.

It's because we're all fat and smoke and drink.

375 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:20:43pm

re: #370 tradewind

IIRC, New Orleans is still without a level one hospital after Katrina. Hope that changes soon.
Oschner Clinic in New Orleans is one of the world's finest.

Ah, there we go. Thanks.

376 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:20:57pm

re: #346 Bagua

You are angry at a nation and a medical system that has given you and your family a standard of living and health unparalleled in human history.

Evening, Bagua. Good to see you again.

377 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:21:15pm

re: #374 reine.de.tout

It's because we're all fat and smoke and drink.

And shoot TVs over sporting events.

/WHO DAT?

378 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:22:12pm

re: #354 reine.de.tout

I have a great distaste for having the federal government getting involved in healthcare - really, health insurance is what we're talking about.

Some will dismiss it as a right wing "talking point".
It's more than that to me, it is a deeply held belief that having the feds involved in this just will not be some wonderful solution to the problem.

I agree, and most do, that something needs to be done to ensure people have access to health care. But federal government intervention is simply NOT the only way to do it.

States could do it on their own. My state does. Other states could do it. Having this done at the state level means that programs and care can be tailored to the specific needs of the state's citizens. It ain't perfect - but it works well without requiring massive federal legislation and intervention.

When is Alabama likely to have such a program?

379 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:22:49pm

re: #368 reine.de.tout

I honestly don't care how it happens, as long as the care is available, and the feds are NOT involved. It can be done.

That is where I think we part ways.

Would you say you care more about the fed not being involved then people getting care?

I'm not trying to say you are but that's the read I'm getting please correct me if I'm wrong...

380 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:22:56pm

re: #372 Vambo

I'm always angry when the subject of health care in the USA comes up -- the industry ruined my life and the lives of many people I know. You all must be on some really great type of state or gov't assistance to have a high satisfaction with your care - yes, I'm assuming, but it's a fair assumption given the age bracket around here.

Ok, just wondering about the -1s, is not conversation on the subject allowable?

For my personal perspective, I have direct experience with both the NHS and the US as a provider, I'm very familiar with both as a result.

381 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:23:17pm

re: #363 jamesfirecat

As long as it leads to the possibility of there being a non profit insurance provider out there, I can live with that.

When did health insurance companies start being "for profit?" Was there a politician or group of politicians responsible?

382 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:23:23pm

re: #376 Dark_Falcon

Evening, Bagua. Good to see you again.

Hi DF, how goes the world with you?

383 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:23:29pm

re: #369 euphgeek

Well that's great - I applaud them for doing that. Any idea why other states haven't implemented it?

Nope.
I don't live in other states.
If you do, you might make a suggestion to your legislators that they take a look

384 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:23:33pm
385 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:24:57pm

re: #370 tradewind

IIRC, New Orleans is still without a level one hospital after Katrina. Hope that changes soon.
Oschner Clinic in New Orleans is one of the world's finest.

It's on its way back

386 Vambo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:25:17pm

re: #379 jamesfirecat

That is where I think we part ways.

Would you say you care more about the fed not being involved then people getting care?

shush, it's always about the Feds. That's why we must stop reform!

387 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:25:46pm

re: #382 Bagua

Hi DF, how goes the world with you?

Better. We had a corporate audit at work today, but our store passed with a comfortable margin. I had a good sales day as well. I'm not feeling well, physically, but that's less important than the things that went right today.

388 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:25:46pm

re: #378 Decatur Deb
My state (under a Democratic state government, now out thank heavens) tried a health care system very similar to what Obama wants passed and hawaii now has also. The result has been massive fraud, rampant cost overruns, and near bankruptcy of some hospitals.

389 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:26:00pm

and, for what it's worth, the reform bill that came out of the Senate was good for nothing but making rich insurance dudes even richer.

390 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:26:04pm

re: #381 eclectic infidel

When did health insurance companies start being "for profit?" Was there a politician or group of politicians responsible?

Well they're either "for profit" or non profit right?

391 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:26:24pm

re: #373 cliffster

re: #349 tradewind

Yes. The money has to come from somewhere, the brains have to come from somewhere. People just don't get that there is not an infinite amount of money in the federal coffers. There's actually minus $12.4 trillion. And Congress can't pass a law banning AIDS, and *poof* HIV cocktail appears.

Without the profit incentive that drives medical and pharmaceutical research, we wouldn't have much problem paying for new drugs and procedures and they would be greatly reduced.

392 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:26:43pm

re: #388 tradewind

proof of massive fraud? >>

393 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:26:45pm

re: #381 eclectic infidel
When did they not? They are business corporations, with shareholders.

394 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:27:09pm

re: #389 cliffster

and, for what it's worth, the reform bill that came out of the Senate was good for nothing but making rich insurance dudes even richer.

Social security sucked when it first came out. If we can get it passed then it provide momentum for more reform.

395 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:27:16pm

re: #379 jamesfirecat

That is where I think we part ways.

Would you say you care more about the fed not being involved then people getting care?

I'm not trying to say you are but that's the read I'm getting please correct me if I'm wrong...

It's super that LA has other systems in place.
Reminder: most states don't or won't.
Reminder: even McCain had to run on a platform promising some health reform.
Let's not even get into the medical bankruptcy issue in the US, nor the pre-existing condition bollocks.

396 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:27:30pm

re: #379 jamesfirecat

That is where I think we part ways.

Would you say you care more about the fed not being involved then people getting care?

I'm not trying to say you are but that's the read I'm getting please correct me if I'm wrong...

I did not understand your caveat that there be a "non-profit' insurance provider.

I don't care if it's a for profit or non-profit, as long as the folks needing care, get it.

You seemed to be saying great, as long as the care is provided through a non-profit. I don't know why you are limiting how the care is provided - as long as it is provided, we should all be happy. Just my .02

397 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:27:33pm

re: #379 jamesfirecat

That is where I think we part ways.

Would you say you care more about the fed not being involved then people getting care?

I'm not trying to say you are but that's the read I'm getting please correct me if I'm wrong...


that's a ridiculous loaded question...

398 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:27:35pm

re: #379 jamesfirecat

That is where I think we part ways.

Would you say you care more about the fed not being involved then people getting care?

I'm not trying to say you are but that's the read I'm getting please correct me if I'm wrong...

It's not so much the Feds running it as it is the Feds (or States or Counties or Cities) turning healthcare into a political bargaining chip. Healthcare decisions effectively becoming political instead of medical, as they should be.

What I'm concerned about is what's gonna stop the politicians from turning an American single-payer system into a replacement for the insurance companies they currently profit off of.

399 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:27:56pm

re: #392 windsagio
Google ' Tncare' and get back to me, I don't have time. Thousands have been found signed up who are not eligible, and worse, there have been false claims submitted by shady clinics and drs statewide.

400 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:28:15pm

re: #374 reine.de.tout

It's because we're all fat and smoke and drink.

Great comeback!!

And you have the most excellent cuisine.

401 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:28:35pm

re: #388 tradewind

My state (under a Democratic state government, now out thank heavens) tried a health care system very similar to what Obama wants passed and hawaii now has also. The result has been massive fraud, rampant cost overruns, and near bankruptcy of some hospitals.

Did they abandon the program, or fix it? Courts and jails are for fraud.

402 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:28:36pm

re: #387 Dark_Falcon

Better. We had a corporate audit at work today, but our store passed with a comfortable margin. I had a good sales day as well. I'm not feeling well, physically, but that's less important than the things that went right today.

Good to hear it, if you can emerge from a meeting with the clipboard-suits intact, then all is right with the world. I hope the rest gets better as well.

403 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:29:00pm

re: #387 Dark_Falcon

Better. We had a corporate audit at work today, but our store passed with a comfortable margin. I had a good sales day as well. I'm not feeling well, physically, but that's less important than the things that went right today.

That's always important DF! Is this from your fall on the ice the other week?
(Full disclaimer: this iceweasel had nothing to do with it and doesnt condone that ice.)

Congrats on your sales today!

404 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:29:00pm

re: #378 Decatur Deb

When is Alabama likely to have such a program?

Dunno.
Ask your legislature.

405 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:29:06pm

re: #394 jamesfirecat

Social security sucked when it first came out. If we can get it passed then it provide momentum for more reform.

Social security is on course to bring down the nation's economy. If Medicare doesn't do it first. You sure you want to put that forward as an example of good policy?

406 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:29:10pm

re: #397 albusteve

that's a ridiculous loaded question...

"I honestly don't care how it happens, as long as the care is available, and the feds are NOT involved. It can be done."

How else was I suppose to take that?

407 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:29:15pm

re: #399 tradewind

nono it doesn't work that way.

Make a claim like that, and the burden of proof is yours.

Prove it, or retract :p

408 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:29:58pm

re: #386 Vambo

shush, it's always about the Feds. That's why we must stop reform!

Yes, it is about the Feds. There are a lot of people on this blog who remain deeply suspicious about having Federal Government take on major new powers. We've seen it take our money and throw its weight around to solve problems, but in the end the problem remains the same or gets worse. Given its poor domestic track record, we're not enamored with giving the Feds yet more power. And saying that does not make us wingnuts.

409 Unakite  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:30:17pm

re: #293 jamesfirecat

381*12= 4572

Average cost for American Family $15,000

[Link: economix.blogs.nytimes.com...]

Good for you, you've somehow found a way to pay a third less than the Average American does...

Sorry, that's just an asshole comment. You obviously don't understand what "average" means. He is actually taking responsibility and paying for his own health insurance and not asking someone else to pay for it, and neither you nor the Gubmint arer picking up the tab, and you still need to find a way to trivialize it.

410 jaunte  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:30:27pm

re: #408 Dark_Falcon

(See: War on Drugs)

411 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:30:42pm

re: #390 jamesfirecat

Well they're either "for profit" or non profit right?

That's my understanding.

412 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:30:45pm

re: #406 jamesfirecat

I think you hit the nail totally on the head, just they don't want to admit it.

The government is always bad, capiche?

413 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:30:49pm

re: #317 bagua

the care an uninsured person in the US gets is still superior to the care that a fully covered person gets under the NHS in Britain.

Wow.

414 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:30:59pm

re: #400 Stanley Sea

Great comeback!!

And you have the most excellent cuisine.

Food is great!
And the other is also, unfortunately, all too true for many residents.

415 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:31:05pm

re: #305 jaunte

My company (34 employees) pays about $1100 a month for families and $550 a month for single coverage through Blue Cross Blue Shield, for medical and dental coverage.

Will work for insurance! WOW! Dental too!
What do I have to do?
/

416 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:31:44pm

re: #408 Dark_Falcon

Yes, it is about the Feds. There are a lot of people on this blog who remain deeply suspicious about having Federal Government take on major new powers. We've seen it take our money and throw its weight around to solve problems, but in the end the problem remains the same or gets worse. Given its poor domestic track record, we're not enamored with giving the Feds yet more power. And saying that does not make us wingnuts.

Hear, hear. There is nothing bad the Feds can't make worse. Expanding their competencies is a mine field, we should be scaling back the government in most areas, not increasing it.

417 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:31:49pm

re: #317 bagua

Clearly true. While the US system is currently overwhelmed with fraud, the care an uninsured person in the US gets is still superior to the care that a fully covered person gets under the NHS in Britain. The difference is the bill.

I'm sorry, Bagua, that isn't true.

418 jaunte  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:31:57pm

re: #415 Floral Giraffe

Be a really good graphic designer. Oh, and buy your own glasses.

419 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:31:58pm

re: #392 windsagio
Okay, just one teensy weensy linky. With multiple instances. There are thousands in google, and the fraud is in the millions.
[Link: news.tennesseeanytime.org...]
Now... picture this multiplied by fifty, and toss in a bureaucracy in DC.
Nightmare!!

420 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:32:22pm

re: #409 Unakite

Sorry, that's just an asshole comment. You obviously don't understand what "average" means. He is actually taking responsibility and paying for his own health insurance and not asking someone else to pay for it, and neither you nor the Gubmint arer picking up the tab, and you still need to find a way to trivialize it.

thank you. some people don't get it.

421 Vambo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:32:23pm

re: #317 bagua

the care an uninsured person in the US gets is still superior to the care that a fully covered person gets under the NHS in Britain.

aaand bullshit statement of the year.

422 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:32:29pm

re: #403 iceweasel

That's always important DF! Is this from your fall on the ice the other week?
(Full disclaimer: this iceweasel had nothing to do with it and doesnt condone that ice.)

Congrats on your sales today!

No, my legs were fine today. Pain levels low, and under control. I did feel somewhat dizzy at times and I was coughing. I'll see how I feel in the morning.

423 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:32:31pm

re: #413 SanFranciscoZionist

Wow.

That is based upon my personal experience, what part of that do you dispute?

424 ryannon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:32:33pm

re: #270 tradewind

It's Not a Perfect World.
Life is Not Fair.
You Can't Always Get What You Want.
etc etc, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.
Question: Why did the French, who give free medical care to every citizen, let thousands of their seniors roast to death in the heat of a few summers ago?

Because the French cultivate denial like a fine art.

Approximately elderly 15,000 died in two weeks that summer.

A

425 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:32:43pm

re: #416 Bagua

Hear, hear. There is nothing bad the Feds can't make worse. Expanding their competencies is a mine field, we should be scaling back the government in most areas, not increasing it.

What about the army? I think a national army is better than state militias

426 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:33:00pm

re: #412 windsagio

I think you hit the nail totally on the head, just they don't want to admit it.

The government is always bad, capiche?

yes, nine out of ten times...I really dig the US armed forces tho

427 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:33:17pm

re: #406 jamesfirecat

"I honestly don't care how it happens, as long as the care is available, and the feds are NOT involved. It can be done."

How else was I suppose to take that?

Well, read the "as long as the care is available" part.

That means, well, that means I want to be sure the care is available.
I'm not sure what's confusing about that.

And I do NOT want the feds involved.
When the feds are involved - things are too big, too massive to be quickly responsive to changing needs (see: Katrina) and also - there is little room for tailoring programs to the specific needs of a particular population.

428 keloyd  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:33:26pm

Insurance company profits are not the problem. they make a 3.4% profit margin, $34 for every $1000 charged.

Beyond that, I got nothin.

429 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:33:32pm

re: #421 Vambo

aaand bullshit statement of the year.

And you are talking shit, I'm speaking from direct experience my angry friend.

430 Aye Pod  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:33:34pm

re: #354 reine.de.tout

states could do it on their own. My state does. Other states could do it. Having this done at the state level means that programs and care can be tailored to the specific needs of the state's citizens. It ain't perfect - but it works well without requiring massive federal legislation and intervention.

Whatever ideas you have in mind for improving healthcare, they are NOT gonna happen everywhere. That's where the 'feds' come in. What's with this allergy to anything involving federal government? Seems like a worn-out ideological talking point to me. At best.

431 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:33:43pm

re: #416 Bagua

Hear, hear. There is nothing bad the Feds can't make worse. Expanding their competencies is a mine field, we should be scaling back the government in most areas, not increasing it.

Quite Concur.

432 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:33:47pm

re: #407 windsagio
I got no burden. Ask for proof, and ye shall google.

433 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:33:51pm

re: #419 tradewind

thanks ;)

Good source too.

434 Vambo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:33:52pm

re: #423 Bagua

That is based upon my personal experience, what part of that do you dispute?

in what? a box?

435 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:33:56pm

re: #420 brookly red

thank you. some people don't get it.

sarcasm and ALL CAPS trumps logic any day, some seem to think

436 jaunte  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:34:08pm

re: #428 keloyd

I think the real profits are farther down, in the drugs and medical devices area.

437 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:34:31pm

re: #417 iceweasel

I'm sorry, Bagua, that isn't true.

What is your direct experience? I was a provider on the NHS.

438 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:34:32pm

re: #427 reine.de.tout

Well, read the "as long as the care is available" part.

That means, well, that means I want to be sure the care is available.
I'm not sure what's confusing about that.

And I do NOT want the feds involved.
When the feds are involved - things are too big, too massive to be quickly responsive to changing needs (see: Katrina) and also - there is little room for tailoring programs to the specific needs of a particular population.

If it came to it, would you rather have people have federal care or be left without care at all?

439 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:34:43pm

re: #430 Jimmah

but its all they have!

440 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:34:56pm

re: #422 Dark_Falcon

No, my legs were fine today. Pain levels low, and under control. I did feel somewhat dizzy at times and I was coughing. I'll see how I feel in the morning.

Fall on the ice? Que pasó, DF?

441 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:34:57pm

re: #428 keloyd

Insurance company profits are not the problem. they make a 3.4% profit margin, $34 for every $1000 charged.

Beyond that, I got nothin.

How much do they pay their CEOS?

442 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:35:01pm

re: #434 Vambo

in what? a box?

?

443 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:35:15pm

Shutting down in Central time, 'Nite, all.

444 Vambo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:35:15pm

re: #429 Bagua

And you are talking shit, I'm speaking from direct experience my angry friend.

In my personal experience, fetuses are delectable deep-fried and basted in mango sauce.

445 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:35:49pm

re: #424 ryannon
Like a fine whine, even.
:)

446 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:36:06pm

re: #436 jaunte

I think the real profits are farther down, in the drugs and medical devices area.

Yes. Also the US system wastes shitloads of money on the admin side. That's why the HCR proposals include overhauling and streamlining the Medicare/Medicaid process as well. HMOs also suck in this regard.

447 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:36:19pm

re: #444 Vambo

In my personal experience, fetuses are delectable deep-fried and basted in mango sauce.

So you're a wierdo, so what?

448 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:36:28pm

re: #433 windsagio
Well, I tried to find the same info on World Net Daily, but sadly...

449 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:36:31pm

re: #387 Dark_Falcon

Better. We had a corporate audit at work today, but our store passed with a comfortable margin. I had a good sales day as well. I'm not feeling well, physically, but that's less important than the things that went right today.

You survived!
CONGRATULATIONS!
Tomorrow, you can wear unpressed clothes to work.
Because.
YOU SURVIVED!
{{DF}}

450 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:36:37pm

re: #421 Vambo

The memo, written on 5 March 2009, described how an ambulance was called to help a 15-year-old girl who had gone into a local newspaper office.

The girl was described as suicidal and suffering acutely paranoid delusions.

The paramedic described how the crew and police officers spent hours transporting the girl from location to location in an attempt to find a safe and secure place where she could be cared for, but without success.

He wrote that the first hospital they took her to, believed to be the main psychiatric hospital in Ipswich, St Clements, "declined to accept the patient as she was a juvenile" so the ambulance was diverted to the local juvenile psychiatry facility.

They were unable to accept the patient as the staff were on an "away day", the memo reports. It is understood this facility would not have been the agreed "place of safety" for such a patient anyway.

The receptionist suggested they contact someone from the Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service nearby.

When the crew got there, they were told the patient could not be accepted.

Another unit was suggested, but this would not be open until four days later.

The patient was then taken to A&E at Ipswich Hospital, but the crew was again told the patient could not be accepted there because she had been sectioned under the Mental Health Act.

The paramedic said: "As there was no alternative available, we had to convey the patient to the police cells as a place of safety. This was the wrong environment for this sick and vulnerable child".

And this is from the BBC, not some right-wing scare blog.

451 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:37:14pm

re: #437 Bagua

What is your direct experience? I was a provider on the NHS.

Ah, you made it sound like you'd been without insurance and needed care in the US, and were comparing it to care under the NHS. That comparison is bollocks.

452 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:37:40pm

re: #444 Vambo

In my personal experience, fetuses are delectable deep-fried and basted in mango sauce.

you are an asshole

453 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:38:22pm

re: #451 iceweasel

Ah, you made it sound like you'd been without insurance and needed care in the US, and were comparing it to care under the NHS. That comparison is bollocks.

That is exactly the comparison I am making. It is not bollocks, it is true. I observed this first hand in both nations.

454 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:38:27pm

re: #430 Jimmah

Whatever ideas you have in mind for improving healthcare, they are NOT gonna happen everywhere. That's where the 'feds' come in. What's with this allergy to anything involving federal government? Seems like a worn-out ideological talking point to me. At best.

Allergy to the federal involvement comes in from, well, having to deal with them (not on healthcare, of course) but on other programs.

They federal bureaucracy is so massive, they simply cannot be quickly responsive to changing needs or special situations in the way that a more local government can.

When the feds have a program, it's got to be consistent and the same across the board, everywhere. It's simply how they operate in order to ensure there is no illegal discrimination. I'm not saying illegal discrimination should be allowed to happen. The problem is that different states have different populations and different problems and different needs. A program at the state level can be tailored to the specific needs of its population.

455 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:38:38pm

re: #423 Bagua

That is based upon my personal experience, what part of that do you dispute?

All of it. Based on my personal experience. That's ridiculous.

456 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:38:42pm

re: #440 cliffster

Fall on the ice? Que pasó, DF?

I fell about three weeks ago while going to work when my building's front steps iced over. It hurt for a day or two but had no lasting impact.

457 jaunte  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:38:59pm

re: #446 iceweasel

Yes. Also the US system wastes shitloads of money on the admin side. That's why the HCR proposals include overhauling and streamlining the Medicare/Medicaid process as well. HMOs also suck in this regard.

This is true. However I have very little faith in a federal solution to streamlining the process, as this has not been a strong suit historically.

458 Unakite  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:39:08pm

re: #354 reine.de.tout

I have a great distaste for having the federal government getting involved in healthcare - really, health insurance is what we're talking about.

Some will dismiss it as a right wing "talking point".
It's more than that to me, it is a deeply held belief that having the feds involved in this just will not be some wonderful solution to the problem.

I agree, and most do, that something needs to be done to ensure people have access to health care. But federal government intervention is simply NOT the only way to do it.

States could do it on their own. My state does. Other states could do it. Having this done at the state level means that programs and care can be tailored to the specific needs of the state's citizens. It ain't perfect - but it works well without requiring massive federal legislation and intervention.

I absolutely agree. States can make mistakes, but states can change them. Massachusetts apparently hasn't worked so well. But HR reform, insurance, etc. needs to be done at the state level, NOT the feds.

459 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:39:12pm

re: #455 SanFranciscoZionist

All of it. Based on my personal experience. That's ridiculous.

You practiced in both countries?

460 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:39:19pm

re: #424 ryannon
What would have been delicious irony, had it not been part of such a tragedy: the only place the elderly could get in out of the heat and get a cup of water with ice was...Le McDonald's.
The same Mickey D's that the people of Paris had lobbied against as being tres gauche.

461 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:39:20pm

re: #438 jamesfirecat

If it came to it, would you rather have people have federal care or be left without care at all?

Care however it can be obtained.
I'm simply saying care can be provided without the feds intervention. And it would work better, imo.

462 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:39:29pm

re: #444 Vambo

In my personal experience, fetuses are delectable deep-fried and basted in mango sauce.

That's a rather modest proposal from you.

463 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:39:55pm

re: #456 Dark_Falcon

I fell about three weeks ago while going to work when my building's front steps iced over. It hurt for a day or two but had no lasting impact.

That sucks. Long way to fall for you, eh? Glad you're ok

464 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:39:57pm

re: #444 Vambo

In my personal experience, fetuses are delectable deep-fried and basted in mango sauce.

And for saying that, you have earned tonight Internet Shithead award.

465 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:40:48pm

re: #464 Dark_Falcon

re: #452 albusteve

you guys are shockingly humorless sometimes :(

It was much funnier to say that than to say "I think you're a GD liar!"

466 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:40:50pm

re: #320 bagua

No mirrors in your house?

Bagua, please 9_9

467 keloyd  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:41:06pm

re: #436 jaunte

# Amgen (biotechnology): Profit margin, 30.6 percent
# Gilead Sciences (biotechnology): 37.6 percent
# Celgene Corp. (biotechnology): 11.9 percent
# Johnson & Johnson (drug manufacturer): 20.8 percent
# Pfizer (drug manufacturer): 16.3 percent
# GlaxoSmithKline (drug manufacturer): 17.4 percent
(from the same place I cited above)

Yup, big pharma is dirty. Their lobbyists have gotten tweaks in patent law that just smell bad. More funk arises from lobbyist shenanigans such as the federal govt not being allowed to negotiate on price. Once your 7(?) year patent is about to end, put one atom in a different place on the drug's molecule. Effectiveness, side effects, etc. are identical, but you put a little yellow stripe on the purple pill and get another new patent. Bill Moyers has done lots of exposes on this, but he's half a communist so I've always been a little leery of what he says. OTOH, big oil almost never makes more than 10% profits.

468 Unakite  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:41:08pm

re: #374 reine.de.tout

It's because we're all fat and smoke and drink.

Hey, I don't smoke.

469 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:41:17pm

re: #444 Vambo

In my personal experience, fetuses are delectable deep-fried and basted in mango sauce.

wow, that's some typical left-wing hatred

470 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:41:29pm

re: #461 reine.de.tout

Care however it can be obtained.
I'm simply saying care can be provided without the feds intervention. And it would work better, imo.

Okay then I'm glad that we agree, that making sure people have care comes first.

I still think that having a federal "safety net" sort of insurance would be the best idea, but I'd be perfectly willing to compromise and have it done by states instead.

471 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:41:40pm

re: #466 WindUpBird

9_9?

(Sorry don't get it)

472 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:41:51pm

re: #459 Bagua

You practiced in both countries?

I've been a patient in both countries. Look, I don't know what you're comparing, but I've made ER runs with NHS and with uninsured patients in the states, not to mention received general care.

473 Gus  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:41:54pm

re: #451 iceweasel

Ah, you made it sound like you'd been without insurance and needed care in the US, and were comparing it to care under the NHS. That comparison is bollocks.

There is no comparing being uninsured in the USA vs. the NHS in the UK. The reality is that other than acute care being uninsured here means no health care for the most part. Other than a few band aid solutions to carry one through a chronic condition. I don't think I've ever seen anyone compare being uninsured here with the NHS.

474 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:42:00pm

re: #465 windsagio

re: #452 albusteve

you guys are shockingly humorless sometimes :(

It was much funnier to say that than to say "I think you're a GD liar!"

You know what's funny? saying GEE-DEE instead of goddamn. :D GEE DEE IT

475 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:42:45pm

re: #467 keloyd

# Amgen (biotechnology): Profit margin, 30.6 percent
# Gilead Sciences (biotechnology): 37.6 percent
# Celgene Corp. (biotechnology): 11.9 percent
# Johnson & Johnson (drug manufacturer): 20.8 percent
# Pfizer (drug manufacturer): 16.3 percent
# GlaxoSmithKline (drug manufacturer): 17.4 percent
(from the same place I cited above)

Yup, big pharma is dirty. Their lobbyists have gotten tweaks in patent law that just smell bad. More funk arises from lobbyist shenanigans such as the federal govt not being allowed to negotiate on price. Once your 7(?) year patent is about to end, put one atom in a different place on the drug's molecule. Effectiveness, side effects, etc. are identical, but you put a little yellow stripe on the purple pill and get another new patent. Bill Moyers has done lots of exposes on this, but he's half a communist so I've always been a little leery of what he says. OTOH, big oil almost never makes more than 10% profits.

profits are bad? whats in your IRA?

476 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:42:50pm

re: #465 windsagio

re: #452 albusteve

you guys are shockingly humorless sometimes :(

It was much funnier to say that than to say "I think you're a GD liar!"

you are shockingly humorless all the time

477 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:42:54pm

re: #469 cliffster

wow, that's some typical left-wing hatred

Sometimes people decide to make inflammatory statements when they get frustrated. Its stupid, but it happens fairly often.

478 palomino  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:43:07pm

re: #437 Bagua

What is your direct experience? I was a provider on the NHS.

Seriously, what "coverage" do the uninsured get beyond (free for them) trips to the emergency room?

479 keloyd  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:43:32pm

re: #441 jamesfirecat

How much do they pay their CEOS?

also a fraction of a penny per customer. Shenangans abound here, but even though the salaries of upper management are more theft/cronyism than market forces, it's tiny when spread out per capita.

480 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:44:00pm

Bagua, what kind of a provider were you? What did you do specifically? Elaborate your case.

481 wee fury  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:44:08pm

re: #444 Vambo

That is a despicable sentence.

482 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:44:09pm

re: #478 palomino

Seriously, what "coverage" do the uninsured get beyond (free for them) trips to the emergency room?

Medicaid... full coverage.

483 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:44:16pm

re: #450 laZardo

And this is from the BBC, not some right-wing scare blog.

Facts have a well known liberal bias. :D

484 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:44:26pm

re: #429 Bagua

And you are talking shit, I'm speaking from direct experience my angry friend.

He [Michael Moore] travels to London to show off the beauty and brilliance of the British National Health Service. He talks to an unstressed doctor who has a four bedroom house in Greenwich and a £100,000 salary from the NHS. He films empty waiting rooms and happy, care-free health workers. He even talks to Tony Benn about how this wonderful marvel came into existence in 1948.
What he hasn’t done is lie in a corridor all night at the Royal Free watching his severed toe disintegrate in a plastic cup of melted ice. I have.
-- James Christopher, review of "Sicko"

485 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:44:27pm

re: #473 Gus 802

There is no comparing being uninsured in the USA vs. the NHS in the UK. The reality is that other than acute care being uninsured here means no health care for the most part. Other than a few band aid solutions to carry one through a chronic condition. I don't think I've ever seen anyone compare being uninsured here with the NHS.

I have seen people here assert exactly that all last summer. They don't know what the fuck they're talking about.
Even people WITH insurance in the US can lose their homes and their savings for medical expenses when the insurance company decides it's something they don't want to pay for. It happened to my friend and her family two years ago.

486 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:44:47pm

re: #468 Unakite

Hey, I don't smoke.

And I'm not fat.
Now we gotta find someone who doesn't drink.

487 Vambo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:44:57pm

re: #478 palomino

Seriously, what "coverage" do the uninsured get beyond (free for them) trips to the emergency room?

I love how "nothing is free" with the big bad gubbamint, but lucky uninsured Americans get all the free trips to the ER they want.

488 palomino  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:45:16pm

re: #462 laZardo

That's a rather modest proposal from you.

Are fetuses the new Lilliputians?

489 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:45:54pm

re: #472 SanFranciscoZionist

I've been a patient in both countries. Look, I don't know what you're comparing, but I've made ER runs with NHS and with uninsured patients in the states, not to mention received general care.

I'm comparing treatment availability, waiting lists, the whole deal. The only area they have an advantage is in the routine care access, but that is inferior value for money. My direct experience is to see a fully employed tax paying Brit on the NHS on a six month wait list for a diagnostic that would lead to another similar wait list. Directly contrasted with an unemployed person on free Masshealth who received immediate care for a similar condition.

490 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:46:08pm

re: #477 Dark_Falcon

Sometimes people decide to make inflammatory statements when they get frustrated. Its stupid, but it happens fairly often.

And then comes the piling-on.

491 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:46:20pm

re: #486 reine.de.tout

And I'm not fat.
Now we gotta find someone who doesn't drink.

don't look at me...pass the Red Stripe please

492 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:46:22pm

On the other hand, the good thing I got from this discussion: "How to always get a reaction... Fried Babies!"

493 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:46:27pm

re: #483 WindUpBird

[eyeroll]

494 Gus  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:46:29pm

re: #485 iceweasel

I have seen people here assert exactly that all last summer. They don't know what the fuck they're talking about.
Even people WITH insurance in the US can lose their homes and their savings for medical expenses when the insurance company decides it's something they don't want to pay for. It happened to my friend and her family two years ago.

It's sort of like something one would read from an insurance company lobbyist. Apples and oranges. Of course people pay for the NHS in the UK with taxes somewhere in the neighborhood of 50% like most European countries.

495 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:46:37pm

re: #444 Vambo

You have misjudged your audience. And George Carlin you ain't.

496 Aye Pod  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:46:50pm

What just happened to me with my arm would have cost me thousands in the US if uninsured. Adequate insurance that would have covered me would have cost me what - $500 a month? And none of that is taking into account the physiotherapy I'm getting. I've just been discharged from the fracture clinic, physio is ongoing. I pay nothing for extra health insurance, and will be charged nothing for any of this.

Yeah, please lecture me on the inadequacies of the UK system, as compared to the US. The laughing helps.

497 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:46:56pm

re: #484 The Sanity Inspector

He [Michael Moore] travels to London to show off the beauty and brilliance of the British National Health Service. He talks to an unstressed doctor who has a four bedroom house in Greenwich and a £100,000 salary from the NHS. He films empty waiting rooms and happy, care-free health workers. He even talks to Tony Benn about how this wonderful marvel came into existence in 1948.
What he hasn’t done is lie in a corridor all night at the Royal Free watching his severed toe disintegrate in a plastic cup of melted ice. I have.
-- James Christopher, review of "Sicko"

I'm sure that has never happened to anyone in the United States.

/

498 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:46:58pm

re: #483 WindUpBird

Facts have a well known liberal bias. :D

[Link: www.instantrimshot.com...]

499 Vambo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:46:59pm

re: #489 Bagua

I'm comparing treatment availability, waiting lists, the whole deal. The only area they have an advantage is in the routine care access, but that is inferior value for money. My direct experience is to see a fully employed tax paying Brit on the NHS on a six month wait list for a diagnostic that would lead to another similar wait list. Directly contrasted with an unemployed person on free Masshealth who received immediate care for a similar condition.

mmhmm.

500 Unakite  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:47:07pm

re: #394 jamesfirecat

Social security sucked when it first came out. If we can get it passed then it provide momentum for more reform.

???Social Security has been passed. and it still sucks, for the people who won't get it.re: #420 brookly red

thank you. some people don't get it.

You're welcome.

501 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:47:31pm

re: #486 reine.de.tout

And I'm not fat.
Now we gotta find someone who doesn't drink.

My husband doesn't drink.

502 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:47:33pm

re: #490 cliffster

And then comes the piling-on.

Not gonna be too much of that tonight. The two sides are too evenly matched for a real pile-on.

503 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:47:42pm

re: #467 keloyd
Anyone who begrudges Big Pharma a profit should take two m&ms next time they have a headache... there's not a lot of profit margin in candy, and they've held their costs down nicely.//

504 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:47:51pm

Goodness, I guess it's simply not ok to say, "left-wing hatred". How charmingly hypocritical.

505 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:47:59pm

Vambo, I love you man, don't let the bastards grind you down.


You're always wonderfully on the edge of destruction.


/its like being a liberal walter without the influential friends :D

506 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:48:05pm

re: #478 palomino

Seriously, what "coverage" do the uninsured get beyond (free for them) trips to the emergency room?

It varies state to state. At bare minimum it is indeed ER visits, but I contrast directly with Mass. where I have experience. They have MassCare for people who can not afford it.

507 Racer X  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:48:05pm

re: #465 windsagio

re: #452 albusteve

you guys are shockingly humorless sometimes :(

It was much funnier to say that than to say "I think you're a GD liar!"

No, no it wasn't.

508 palomino  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:48:11pm

re: #482 brookly red

Medicaid... full coverage.

So you're in favor of extending Medicaid to the 30+ million uninsured?

509 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:48:40pm

re: #502 Dark_Falcon

Not gonna be too much of that tonight. The two sides are too evenly matched for a real pile-on.

Too early to call. As the hour gets late, it may tilt in favor of one side or the other.

510 Gus  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:49:05pm

re: #489 Bagua

I'm comparing treatment availability, waiting lists, the whole deal. The only area they have an advantage is in the routine care access, but that is inferior value for money. My direct experience is to see a fully employed tax paying Brit on the NHS on a six month wait list for a diagnostic that would lead to another similar wait list. Directly contrasted with an unemployed person on free Masshealth who received immediate care for a similar condition.

If you are unemployed, uninsured in the USA you don't get put on a waiting list for a diagnostic test. You just don't get tested especially with something like an MRI. Only in acute care such as trauma.

511 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:49:06pm

re: #484 The Sanity Inspector

You got that right.

512 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:49:15pm

re: #486 reine.de.tout

And I'm not fat.
Now we gotta find someone who doesn't drink.

I don't drink, too cheap.

513 jaunte  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:49:22pm

re: #505 windsagio

People lose the point he's making because of the pointless imagery.

514 Unakite  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:49:40pm

re: #420 brookly red

thank you. some people don't get it.

Sorry, my last post combine a couple.

You're welcome. :)

515 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:49:48pm

re: #484 The Sanity Inspector

Jeremy Clarkson on why Canada is #30 on the healthcare rankings.

516 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:50:03pm

re: #504 cliffster
Silly, Leftys cannot hate. They merely exhibit extreme levels of caring.

517 Kruk  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:50:04pm

re: #413 SanFranciscoZionist

Wow.

Heh. I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read that comment. I've worked in health care in Britain. The NHS has its short comings, but it provides good care for the vast majority of the population. And for those who aren't happy with it, Britain has a thriving system of private insurers and providers.

518 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:50:10pm

re: #504 cliffster

Goodness, I guess it's simply not ok to say, "left-wing hatred". How charmingly hypocritical.

Reversal test it.

519 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:50:22pm

re: #501 SanFranciscoZionist

My husband doesn't drink.

But he doesn't live in Louisiana!
We need one slender person, one non-smoker, and one non-drinker to make one healthy Louisianian!

520 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:50:35pm

re: #508 palomino

So you're in favor of extending Medicaid to the 30+ million uninsured?

Cue the (debunked) talking points about how there aren't really 30+ million uninsured, but only 12 million or so...

521 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:50:39pm

re: #513 jaunte

people are overly sensitive about some things, too.

Its a freakin' internet blog, not congress :p

522 Gus  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:50:43pm

Side note. I don't think people are saying we have to conduct ourselves like the UK with the NHS. Health care reform doesn't mean we will become like the NHS. Unless of course people are happy with seeing their health insurance premiums skyrocket on a yearly basis.

523 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:50:55pm

re: #518 SanFranciscoZionist

Reversal test it.

That's my point, SFZ

524 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:51:00pm

re: #487 Vambo

I love how "nothing is free" with the big bad gubbamint, but lucky uninsured Americans get all the free trips to the ER they want.

People who don't pay their bills create higher costs for people who do, and higher operating expenses for the whole systems. It's a big problem. Grady Hospital here in Atlanta was never purposed to be a charity hospital, but it's been skirting bankruptcy for some time because that's how it's been used by the public it serves. Insert qualifiers about low income, recession, hardship, etc. here.

525 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:51:21pm

re: #506 Bagua

It varies state to state. At bare minimum it is indeed ER visits, but I contrast directly with Mass. where I have experience. They have MassCare for people who can not afford it.

And you're in favor of that?

526 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:51:32pm

re: #510 Gus 802
In my town we have an innovative facility called the Church Health Center (oh gasp), that is a collective of doctors, nurses, and other medical pros who donate their time monthly. The facility was paid for in donations. They serve working, uninsured people who pay as they can, and it works beautifully.

527 Racer X  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:51:42pm

re: #502 Dark_Falcon

Not gonna be too much of that tonight. The two sides are too evenly matched for a real pile-on.

DOGPILE ON DF!

528 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:52:17pm

re: #486 reine.de.tout

And I'm not fat.
Now we gotta find someone who doesn't drink.

I've cut down!

529 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:52:24pm

re: #526 tradewind

every community has those, and they're full far over capacity.

530 Gus  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:52:32pm

re: #526 tradewind

In my town we have an innovative facility called the Church Health Center (oh gasp), that is a collective of doctors, nurses, and other medical pros who donate their time monthly. The facility was paid for in donations. They serve working, uninsured people who pay as they can, and it works beautifully.

Yeah, there are avenues available. Hope I'm not coming off as a complete cynic.

531 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:52:35pm

re: #444 Vambo

The mango is a wonderful fruit. In recent months, I've consumed mango chutney, mango curry (deelish), and a mango protein drink.

Perhaps it is making a comeback.

532 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:52:37pm

re: #519 reine.de.tout

But he doesn't live in Louisiana!
We need one slender person, one non-smoker, and one non-drinker to make one healthy Louisianian!

He has relatives in Louisiana. I don't know if they drink.

533 webevintage  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:52:39pm

What about the system they have in Vermont?
That seems to work very well.
Anyone here from VT?

534 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:52:42pm

re: #528 Stanley Sea

I can't drink at all any more. Stupid stomach :(

535 Vambo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:52:49pm

re: #499 Vambo

mmhmm.

Just wanted to clarify something here... because I certainly didn't bring up NHS, nor tried to glorify it (if I did, that wasn't my intention)... but your example of US superiority in health services is Masshealth?? Has there been some kind of misunderstanding here, or is that not a government program.

536 palomino  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:52:50pm

re: #506 Bagua

It varies state to state. At bare minimum it is indeed ER visits, but I contrast directly with Mass. where I have experience. They have MassCare for people who can not afford it.

But I would guess that in most states the uninsured fare nowhere near as well as they do in MA, and a few other liberal states. And most poor aren't eligible for Medicaid as I'm sure you know. So huge numbers end up in emerg. rooms as first resort, not last as intended.

537 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:52:55pm

re: #510 Gus 802

If you are unemployed, uninsured in the USA you don't get put on a waiting list for a diagnostic test. You just don't get tested especially with something like an MRI. Only in acute care such as trauma.

You don't get care.

Twelve-year-old Deamonte Driver died of a toothache Sunday.

A routine, $80 tooth extraction might have saved him.

If his mother had been insured.

If his family had not lost its Medicaid.

If Medicaid dentists weren't so hard to find.

If his mother hadn't been focused on getting a dentist for his brother, who had six rotted teeth.

By the time Deamonte's own aching tooth got any attention, the bacteria from the abscess had spread to his brain, doctors said. After two operations and more than six weeks of hospital care, the Prince George's County boy died.

Deamonte's death and the ultimate cost of his care, which could total more than $250,000, underscore an often-overlooked concern in the debate over universal health coverage: dental care.

538 keloyd  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:52:57pm

re: #444 Vambo

In my personal experience, fetuses are delectable deep-fried and basted in mango sauce.

Surely he meant this delicacy of ancient Rome. I bet Cato likes these better than chicken wings.

In other news, I spent several years saying "what Rush really meant was..." when he was said one damn thing after another. I've given up on Rush, but still have the skills.

539 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:53:04pm

re: #510 Gus 802

If you are unemployed, uninsured in the USA you don't get put on a waiting list for a diagnostic test. You just don't get tested especially with something like an MRI. Only in acute care such as trauma.

Not true Gus. The example I gave from Mass never worked a day in his life nor paid a penny for his Masscare. He had an MRI, read the same day. The employed patient in the UK was on a six month wait list for just the MRI, and he was off-work as a result and paid into the NHS via tax money. After his MRI comes another wait list to see the doctor, if a surgery is needed, yet another wait list. The difference is stark.

And note: We shouldn't compare the tax payers with the unemployed as they are paying for their national health care through taxes. They should be compared to the insured in the US, and the contrast is far greater.

540 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:53:15pm

re: #502 Dark_Falcon
But ...I thought pylons were supposed to be evenly matched...

541 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:53:31pm

re: #523 cliffster

That's my point, SFZ

Really? I could refer to right-wing hate, and folks would be dandy?

542 Kruk  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:53:37pm

re: #423 Bagua

That is based upon my personal experience, what part of that do you dispute?

The idea that a middle class person who gets both free care from the NHS and the option of topping it up with private insurance is somehow worse off than a homeless person with no health insurance in the US.

543 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:53:45pm

re: #522 Gus 802

Side note. I don't think people are saying we have to conduct ourselves like the UK with the NHS. Health care reform doesn't mean we will become like the NHS. Unless of course people are happy with seeing their health insurance premiums skyrocket on a yearly basis.

None of the US HCR proposals involve moving to a system like the NHS or similar.

SOCIALISM! /

544 Gus  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:54:39pm

re: #539 Bagua

Not true Gus. The example I gave from Mass never worked a day in his life nor paid a penny for his Masscare. He had an MRI, read the same day. The employed patient in the UK was on a six month wait list for just the MRI, and he was off-work as a result and paid into the NHS via tax money. After his MRI comes another wait list to see the doctor, if a surgery is needed, yet another wait list. The difference is stark.

And note: We shouldn't compare the tax payers with the unemployed as they are paying for their national health care through taxes. They should be compared to the insured in the US, and the contrast is far greater.

Yeah, but that's Masscare. That's because Massachusetts did their own version of HCR. It's not the norm.

I thought they were losing money. Yes?

545 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:54:55pm

re: #541 SanFranciscoZionist

Really? I could refer to right-wing hate, and folks would be dandy?

It's like 10,000 broken records, every single day. You can't possibly deny this.

546 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:55:03pm

re: #542 Kruk

The idea that a middle class person who gets both free care from the NHS and the option of topping it up with private insurance is somehow worse off than a homeless person with no health insurance in the US.

Topping it off? You mean with private insurance that is off of the NHS? That is the only case where it would be better.

547 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:55:19pm

re: #537 iceweasel

man that hits close to home for me.

I've had especially bad tooth problems for a few months now (luckily in the lower jaw, so I'm not at as much a risk of dying), but even with my current insurance I can't afford the care it'll take.

Luckily the open enrollment is wednesday, and I'll go on a year of almost no medical/REALLYEXPENSIVECARE(tm) dental for a year, and get my work done.

548 palomino  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:55:37pm

re: #520 iceweasel

Cue the (debunked) talking points about how there aren't really 30+ million uninsured, but only 12 million or so...

Right, only 12 million uninsured, but 200 million illegal immigrants. "They're overtaking our country!"

549 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:55:41pm

re: #522 Gus 802

Side note. I don't think people are saying we have to conduct ourselves like the UK with the NHS. Health care reform doesn't mean we will become like the NHS. Unless of course people are happy with seeing their health insurance premiums skyrocket on a yearly basis.

I got my health insurance "update" earlier this week.
My bill is going from $289 a month to $399 a month.
THAT'S A 38% INCREASE.
I changed providers, but for $300 a month, it's pretty much just catastrophic insurance. With 40% co-pays on almost everything. Including an ER visit, with hospital admission. Capped at $10,000 a year.
We have GOT to do something.

550 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:55:48pm

re: #537 iceweasel

Give it up, Ice. That would be significant if he'd died in Britain and been reported on in the Daily Mail. In the U.S. it proves nothing.

/

551 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:55:52pm

re: #543 iceweasel

None of the US HCR proposals involve moving to a system like the NHS or similar.

SOCIALISM! /

H.R. 676.

552 Gus  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:55:57pm

re: #545 cliffster

It's like 10,000 broken records, every single day. You can't possibly deny this.

What broken record? You think it's one sided here now?

553 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:56:02pm

re: #535 Vambo

Just wanted to clarify something here... because I certainly didn't bring up NHS, nor tried to glorify it (if I did, that wasn't my intention)... but your example of US superiority in health services is Masshealth?? Has there been some kind of misunderstanding here, or is that not a government program.

The Louisiana system is also a government program.
But it's at the state level, not the federal level.

Perhaps, and I'm guessing here, perhaps the misunderstanding is that many here who are against a FEDERAL program would be perfectly happy with a program closer to home, at the state level.

It's not the provision of care that I have a problem with - it's the way it's handled. And I would prefer to see it handled more locally, and not through the feds.

554 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:56:11pm

re: #529 windsagio
This is not some little community walk in. It's a large city wide hospital type system, and it is working well.
[Link: www.churchhealthcenter.org...]

555 Racer X  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:56:44pm

Bottom line - America can do better. No one should be turned away when they are sick or injured.

556 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:56:56pm

re: #506 Bagua

It varies state to state. At bare minimum it is indeed ER visits, but I contrast directly with Mass. where I have experience. They have MassCare for people who can not afford it.

I've been told here that MassCare is an absolute disaster that you wouldn't wish on any person !!11!!!1

557 Unakite  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:57:02pm

re: #451 iceweasel

Ah, you made it sound like you'd been without insurance and needed care in the US, and were comparing it to care under the NHS. That comparison is bollocks.

I haven't followed this whole thought so I don't know if this is appropriate, but the person who is providing after school care to our oldest son (he's twelve) was in Canada with a serious problem (a while ago) and they would not take care of her because she was not in the Canadian health care system.

558 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:57:02pm

re: #545 cliffster

It's like 10,000 broken records, every single day. You can't possibly deny this.

both sides have haters. Thankfully, none of them are around here tonight.

559 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:57:12pm

re: #552 Gus 802

What broken record? You think it's one sided here now?

I didn't say one-sided. But "right-wing hatred" is a fairly nonstop theme. I don't think you can sanely argue that.

560 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:57:16pm

re: #548 palomino
Ask the governor of Calee forr nee yah about that.

561 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:57:24pm

re: #539 Bagua

Not true Gus. The example I gave from Mass never worked a day in his life nor paid a penny for his Masscare. He had an MRI, read the same day. The employed patient in the UK was on a six month wait list for just the MRI, and he was off-work as a result and paid into the NHS via tax money. After his MRI comes another wait list to see the doctor, if a surgery is needed, yet another wait list. The difference is stark.

And note: We shouldn't compare the tax payers with the unemployed as they are paying for their national health care through taxes. They should be compared to the insured in the US, and the contrast is far greater.

So, state-run, taxpayer funded health coverage for the poor is a good thing? I'm just checking.

562 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:57:56pm

re: #544 Gus 802

Yeah, but that's Masscare. That's because Massachusetts did their own version of HCR. It's not the norm.

I thought they were losing money. Yes?

Yes that is Mass., it also precedes the current situation by about a decade. Things vary state by state, but the truly fair comparison is between the insured and the NHS, as the taxpayers pay for everything.

563 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:58:10pm

re: #555 Racer X

Bottom line - America can do better. No one should be turned away when they are sick or injured.

I don't know if it was you or Rwdflynavy that supplied the article I quote in my #450, but if we can do better, it shouldn't be like that...

564 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:58:14pm

re: #554 tradewind

I'm sure it works well, the community ones do too. I just also bet its damn hard to get slots in their programs now.

565 Vambo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:58:59pm

re: #556 Stanley Sea

I've been told here that MassCare is an absolute disaster that you wouldn't wish on any person !!11!!!1

Is that your personal experience? if so, it must be true, and cannot be refuted.

566 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:59:12pm

re: #545 cliffster

It's like 10,000 broken records, every single day. You can't possibly deny this.

Uh, you must be joking. The right side of this blog gives as good or better than it gets. It's only just begun to reach parity in the last six months or so.

567 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:59:15pm

re: #559 cliffster

I didn't say one-sided. But "right-wing hatred" is a fairly nonstop theme. I don't think you can sanely argue that.

Anyways, nobody's changing anyone's mind tonight. I think it's peanut butter and jelly time.

568 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:59:17pm

re: #561 SanFranciscoZionist

So, state-run, taxpayer funded health coverage for the poor is a good thing? I'm just checking.

For me the answer is yes.

569 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:59:32pm

re: #544 Gus 802

Yeah, but that's Masscare. That's because Massachusetts did their own version of HCR. It's not the norm.

I thought they were losing money. Yes?

I'm glad you're here Gus, to keep things in perspective.

570 palomino  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:59:45pm

re: #560 tradewind

Ask the governor of Calee forr nee yah about that.

I live in Cali. Any day now La Reconquista will be complete and we will all be legally required to speak only Spanish. ///

What do you think Tancredo's speech was really all about?

571 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 8:59:48pm

re: #565 Vambo

Man, what're you thinking!

People never lie from the safe anonymity of a 'net connection!

572 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:00:06pm

re: #516 tradewind

Silly, Leftys cannot hate. They merely exhibit extreme levels of caring.

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
-- C. S. Lewis

573 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:00:07pm

re: #567 cliffster

Anyways, nobody's changing anyone's mind tonight. I think it's peanut butter and jelly time.

Upding for internet classic-ness.

574 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:00:18pm

re: #555 Racer X

Bottom line - America can do better. No one should be turned away when they are sick or injured.

Yes. This isn't a "Wheee! America rocks!" debate.
We can all agree that America has the best health care anywhere-- for those who can afford it.

It's really disgusting that in the wealthiest nation on earth we have citizens dying because they can't afford a tooth extraction. This needs to be fixed.

575 Kruk  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:00:41pm

re: #459 Bagua

You practiced in both countries?

576 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:00:42pm

re: #573 laZardo

Upding for internet classic-ness.

Sometimes you gotta go back to the basics.

577 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:01:04pm

re: #561 SanFranciscoZionist

So, state-run, taxpayer funded health coverage for the poor is a good thing? I'm just checking.

Of course, there has to be consideration for those unable to help themselves. This is best done on a state by state bases, it is the federal takeover that I oppose, not sensible local and state programs that will always be needed.

My point is, even that is pretty good by contrast, and when one looks at the taxpaying insured in both nations, America is head and shoulders above the NHS.

578 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:01:04pm

re: #565 Vambo

Don't be an ass.

579 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:01:20pm

re: #557 Unakite

I haven't followed this whole thought so I don't know if this is appropriate, but the person who is providing after school care to our oldest son (he's twelve) was in Canada with a serious problem (a while ago) and they would not take care of her because she was not in the Canadian health care system.

Canada I don't know about. UK you get covered automatically.

580 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:01:33pm

re: #574 iceweasel

We also pay way more than we should, even for those who can get the care, but that might be a different debate :p

First things first, I guess.

581 palomino  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:02:17pm

The system is unsustainable. The irony in all of this is that by kicking the can down the road, we'll probably end up with something more "radical" than the current HCR legislation.

582 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:02:49pm

re: #575 Kruk

Yes. Though I hadn't intended to let that slip.

583 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:02:56pm

re: #568 reine.de.tout

For me the answer is yes.

What if there were a federal requirement that the states do so? A la NCLB.

584 keloyd  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:03:01pm

re: #475 brookly red

profits are bad? whats in your IRA?

Profits are the bee's knees. Oligarchies are bad. Being big enough that you can bend the rules to not have to compete is bad. When you're a CEO and your board of directors is supposed to oversee salaries on behalf of shareholders, but they're your golfing/fraternity/blood relative buddies, or you serve on their boards, then you're getting around market forces to grab more salary. When your big pharma corporation sends an army of lobbyists to tweak patent laws in shady ways, that's not free market capitalism. When you send another army of nubile, perky ex-cheerleaders* to doctors as pharma. sales reps, that's ... well... I'll give them a pass on that one.

*can't give a citation any more, but I've been told several years ago that cheerleaders about to graduate from college get recruited by Big Pharma to visit doctors and sell inform them of important information about their pills

585 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:03:29pm

re: #557 Unakite

I haven't followed this whole thought so I don't know if this is appropriate, but the person who is providing after school care to our oldest son (he's twelve) was in Canada with a serious problem (a while ago) and they would not take care of her because she was not in the Canadian health care system.

Conversely, I have friends (one Canadian, one American) whose son was born with spina bifida.
Although the Canadian is a permanent US resident and eligible for citizenship in the US, they wind up taking their son back to Canada for all his medical treatment, because they simply can't afford it in the US even with their insurance, and he gets better care there.

586 Vambo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:03:39pm

re: #516 tradewind

Silly, Leftys cannot hate. They merely exhibit extreme levels of caring.

"liberal hate" from a fetus joke? you guys need to lighten up.

587 Gus  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:03:50pm

I need to lose myself in a movie. Back later maybe.

588 Kruk  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:04:27pm

re: #482 brookly red

Medicaid... full coverage.

Except that Medicaid doesn't cover every poor person. Eligibility can vary from 100 percent of the poverty level to 300 percent from one state to another. In some states, pregnant woment and parents with dependent children are covered, while single adults or couples may not be covered no mater how poor or sick they are.

589 Racer X  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:04:34pm

re: #574 iceweasel

Yes. This isn't a "Wheee! America rocks!" debate.
We can all agree that America has the best health care anywhere-- for those who can afford it.

It's really disgusting that in the wealthiest nation on earth we have citizens dying because they can't afford a tooth extraction. This needs to be fixed.

People die in the UK too. It happens.

590 Unakite  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:04:46pm

re: #486 reine.de.tout

And I'm not fat.
Now we gotta find someone who doesn't drink.

Fat chance of that! :)

591 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:05:07pm

Okay. Yeah.

Was sitting in a hotel room with some guys I work with. One just got back from a cruise. He decided to brag about something none of us had ever seen before. I made a dollar bet (I normally don't bet, but, I swear! I think I've seen everything!)

He was at a nude beach, you know boys (highlight 'bragging')

Topless woman. Micro bottom bikini.

Colostomy bag.

I just lost a dollar.

Can someone lend me a dollar?

592 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:05:35pm

re: #583 SanFranciscoZionist

What if there were a federal requirement that the states do so? A la NCLB.

That may be what it takes - a federal requirement that each state develops some sort of program to care for the indigent and uninsured, with the program to be developed and run by each state.

That would be fine.
Personally, I'm just very wary of having the federal gov't try to run a program this massive, knowing as I do how difficult it is for them to be able to move quickly when the need is there. Much easier at the state level to be able to respond to changing or specific needs.

593 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:05:59pm

re: #579 SanFranciscoZionist

Canada I don't know about. UK you get covered automatically.

There are some upsides to that as well, depending on the individual. But on balance my experience is that the bureaucracy creates massive waste and problems in the UK.

594 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:06:29pm

re: #206 marjoriemoon
Because, thank heavens, the US doesn't take part in that ICC/shenanigans racket...
Although POTUS would dearly love to change that situation.

595 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:06:50pm

re: #593 Bagua

I think you should either elaborate on your experience or not mention it at all.


Because seriously, it's a bit fishy otherwise (and sorry for the insult, but thats just how it is)

596 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:07:02pm

re: #578 Dark_Falcon
That tramp steamer has sailed, DF...

597 Racer X  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:07:04pm

re: #592 reine.de.tout

That may be what it takes - a federal requirement that each state develops some sort of program to care for the indigent and uninsured, with the program to be developed and run by each state.

That would be fine.
Personally, I'm just very wary of having the federal gov't try to run a program this massive, knowing as I do how difficult it is for them to be able to move quickly when the need is there. Much easier at the state level to be able to respond to changing or specific needs.

Interesting. The competition may be a good thing.

598 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:07:08pm

re: #588 Kruk

Except that Medicaid doesn't cover every poor person. Eligibility can vary from 100 percent of the poverty level to 300 percent from one state to another. In some states, pregnant woment and parents with dependent children are covered, while single adults or couples may not be covered no mater how poor or sick they are.

it is not a perfect system...

599 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:07:33pm

Hound Dog - Acoustic


-Jimi Hendrix
600 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:09:19pm

re: #595 windsagio

I think you should either elaborate on your experience or not mention it at all.

Because seriously, it's a bit fishy otherwise (and sorry for the insult, but thats just how it is)

I did and I have over many months time in many comments.

601 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:09:22pm

re: #588 Kruk

Except that Medicaid doesn't cover every poor person. Eligibility can vary from 100 percent of the poverty level to 300 percent from one state to another. In some states, pregnant woment and parents with dependent children are covered, while single adults or couples may not be covered no mater how poor or sick they are.

And in some states if you're a pregnant woman who loses her job and can't afford COBRA, you can't buy health insurance that covers prenatal and childbirth costs, because they consider your pregnancy a 'pre-existing condition'.
If Palin had made that a plank in her campaign I would have had a great deal more respect for her.

602 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:10:08pm

Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors

Once you have government health care, it can be used to justify almost any restraint on freedom: After all, if the state has to cure you, it surely has an interest in preventing you needing treatment in the first place. That’s the argument behind, for example, mandatory motorcycle helmets, or the creepy teams of government nutritionists currently going door to door in Britain and conducting a “health audit” of the contents of your refrigerator. They’re not yet confiscating your Twinkies; they just want to take a census of how many you have. So you do all this for the “free” health care—and in the end you may not get the “free” health care anyway. Under Britain’s National Health Service, for example, smokers in Manchester have been denied treatment for heart disease, and the obese in Suffolk are refused hip and knee replacements. Patricia Hewitt, the British Health Secretary, says that it’s appropriate to decline treatment on the basis of “lifestyle choices.” Smokers and the obese may look at their gay neighbor having unprotected sex with multiple partners, and wonder why his “lifestyle choices” get a pass while theirs don’t. But that’s the point: Tyranny is always whimsical.
-- Mark Steyn

603 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:10:39pm

I'm finding bits of information online that suggests that it was Ronald Reagan who was responsible for turning health care from non profit to profit, but I am unable to find an exact piece of legislation.

604 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:11:17pm

re: #600 Bagua

thats why you said above you wished you hadn't mentioned it?

re: #582 Bagua

Yes. Though I hadn't intended to let that slip.

That implies that you haven't gone over it before.

Care to elaborate again? Because its pretty damn clear that a ton of people on here haven't heard you talk about this before, and it would probalby help you make your point.

605 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:11:33pm

re: #603 eclectic infidel

Who made drug commercials legal? Surfing through hay-fields and all that?

606 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:11:56pm

re: #602 The Sanity Inspector

Mark Steyn is a genocidal and backstabbing bastard.

607 keloyd  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:12:13pm

re: #591 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh bloody hell! You should send me another dollar three seven dollars for making me read that!

608 Kruk  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:12:19pm

re: #494 Gus 802

It's sort of like something one would read from an insurance company lobbyist. Apples and oranges. Of course people pay for the NHS in the UK with taxes somewhere in the neighborhood of 50% like most European countries.

Damn. That must mean I seriously short changed the taxman when I was working in the UK between 2005 and 2007. I've got one of my old payslips right here, and I paid a total of 967 pounds out of monthly taxable earnings of 3236 pounds (which puts me in at least the second highest tax bracket.) That works out at around 30% tax.

609 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:12:54pm

re: #605 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Who made drug commercials legal? Surfing through hay-fields and all that?

I love the boner commercials...the rubber faced guy with the perpetual smile...priceless

610 palomino  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:13:04pm

re: #589 Racer X

People die in the UK too. It happens.

Right, but they live longer than Americans...at a fraction of the health expenditure rate.

611 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:13:11pm

re: #602 The Sanity Inspector

Nice extremist example I've come to expect from the likes of him.

Mark Steyn is absurd.

612 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:13:23pm

re: #602 The Sanity Inspector

Don't treat the old and unhealthy, say doctors

Once you have government health care, it can be used to justify almost any restraint on freedom: After all, if the state has to cure you, it surely has an interest in preventing you needing treatment in the first place. That’s the argument behind, for example, mandatory motorcycle helmets, or the creepy teams of government nutritionists currently going door to door in Britain and conducting a “health audit” of the contents of your refrigerator. They’re not yet confiscating your Twinkies; they just want to take a census of how many you have. So you do all this for the “free” health care—and in the end you may not get the “free” health care anyway. Under Britain’s National Health Service, for example, smokers in Manchester have been denied treatment for heart disease, and the obese in Suffolk are refused hip and knee replacements. Patricia Hewitt, the British Health Secretary, says that it’s appropriate to decline treatment on the basis of “lifestyle choices.” Smokers and the obese may look at their gay neighbor having unprotected sex with multiple partners, and wonder why his “lifestyle choices” get a pass while theirs don’t. But that’s the point: Tyranny is always whimsical.
-- Mark Steyn

I love Mark Steyn. He really does let tyrannical busybodies have it. He also makes the point of how intrusive government gets when allowed.

613 jaunte  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:13:41pm

re: #603 eclectic infidel

I'm finding bits of information online that suggests that it was Ronald Reagan who was responsible for turning health care from non profit to profit, but I am unable to find an exact piece of legislation.

HMO Act of 1973. I think some of the federal grant provisions were changed under the Reagan administration, but I don't know the name of that legislation.

614 Aye Pod  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:13:58pm

re: #610 palomino

Right, but they live longer than Americans...at a fraction of the health expenditure rate.

And they don't die for want of cash.

615 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:14:10pm
616 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:14:20pm

re: #606 iceweasel

Mark Steyn is a genocidal and backstabbing bastard.

so was Mao, but we should read his work for relevance...I'm told

617 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:14:47pm

re: #616 albusteve

lol by whom?

618 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:15:12pm

It would be ideal, if everyone we able to afford good health care. Maybe the premiums could be set at a % of income. I know, the emergency appendectomy I had, 5 years ago, the cost as an uninsured patient was $40,000, yet the price my insurance company actually paid was (IIRC) $10,000. Now, $10,000 is conceivably something I could work & pay off in my lifetime. $40,000? Not bloody likely. So, somehow "WE" as the patients in this system, need to find a way to address the pricing differential.

I don't know what that is, but it has to be done.

Rant off.

619 Aye Pod  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:15:19pm

re: #616 albusteve

so was Mao, but we should read his work for relevance...I'm told

Who is quoting Mao, here, albusteve?

620 Racer X  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:15:21pm

re: #605 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Who made drug commercials legal? Surfing through hay-fields and all that?

Holy Crap I hate watching those drug commercials on TV! I fully support a ban on them right now!

621 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:15:44pm

re: #607 keloyd

*shudder*

622 SteveC  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:15:48pm

re: #601 iceweasel

... because they consider your pregnancy a 'pre-existing condition'.

""Well the nearest thing that I can figure is that [tribbles] are born pregnant – which appears to be quite a time-saver!" - Dr. McCoy

623 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:15:49pm

Oh, hells bells.
Thunderstorm, I need to shut down.
BBL (maybe).

624 jaunte  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:16:02pm

re: #620 Racer X

Think of the junk email!

625 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:16:06pm

re: #613 jaunte

Thank you.

626 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:16:06pm

re: #606 iceweasel

Mark Steyn is a genocidal and backstabbing bastard.

Why backstabbing? (I know why you say genocidal, though I do not agree.)

627 Racer X  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:16:13pm

re: #610 palomino

Right, but they live longer than Americans...at a fraction of the health expenditure rate.

Thats because guns are legal here.

/

628 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:16:26pm

re: #619 Jimmah

Who is quoting Mao, here, albusteve?

nobody I know of

629 palomino  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:16:30pm

re: #612 Dark_Falcon

Problem is, Mark Steyn has recently gone off into Michelle Malkin, even Pamela Geller, territory.

630 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:17:02pm

re: #604 windsagio

Because as an anonymous poster there is no way to prove professional experience, so I prefer to speak from personal experience and let the viewer accept or reject my ideas based upon their merit and my comment history.

631 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:17:17pm

lots of snow in the northeast.

632 SteveC  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:17:25pm

re: #609 albusteve

I love the boner commercials...the rubber faced guy with the perpetual smile...priceless

I'll sit in this bathtub, you sit in that one, we'll wait on the quicker picker up to kick in, and then we'll be in business!

633 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:17:30pm

re: #623 reine.de.tout

Oh, hells bells.
Thunderstorm, I need to shut down.
BBL (maybe).

Expecting ten inches of snow again.

Super Bowl?! And now simple thunderstorms? You win again!

634 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:17:41pm

re: #611 eclectic infidel

Nice extremist example I've come to expect from the likes of him.

Mark Steyn is absurd.

And the nice slur on the fictional gay neighbor with the multiple unprotected partners...

635 Racer X  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:18:11pm

re: #631 cliffster

lots of snow in the northeast.

Niagra falls have frozen solid!

636 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:18:15pm

re: #616 albusteve

so was Mao, but we should read his work for relevance...I'm told

By whom?

637 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:18:24pm

re: #630 Bagua

so you don't care to elaborate; gotcha.

Hows this : You can't prove it but if you describe it in detail rather than just saying 'my personal experience', people will find it much more convincing.

638 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:18:46pm

re: #634 SanFranciscoZionist

If he existed, he should sue!

639 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:19:12pm

re: #611 eclectic infidel

Nice extremist example I've come to expect from the likes of him.

Mark Steyn is absurd.

Steyn is bad news. he shared a private email CJ sent him with Pam geller (recent post here on that) -- and he's a genocidal bastard who has pushed the crap about 'muslim demographics' in europe, as well as writing this:

Why did Bosnia collapse into the worst slaughter in Europe since World War Two? In the thirty years before the meltdown, Bosnian Serbs had declined from 43 percent to 31 percent of the population, while Bosnian Muslims had increased from 26 percent to 44 percent. In a democratic age, you can't buck demography — except through civil war. The Serbs figured that out — as other Continentals will in the years ahead: if you can't outbreed the enemy, cull 'em. The problem that Europe faces is that Bosnia’s demographic profile is now the model for the entire continent.


Towards the end of that book Steyn dismisses genocide, but check out his phrasing and his reason:

Even if you regard Islam as essentially incompatible with free societies, the slaughter required to end it as a force in the world would change America beyond recognition. That doesn't mean that, a few years down the line, if some kooks with nukes obliterate, say, Marseilles or Lyons that the French wouldn't give it a go in some fairly spectacular way. But they're unlikely to accomplish much by it, any more than the Russians have by their scorched earth strategy in Chechnya.

His issue with genocide as a strategy is that it 'won't accomplish much'.

Steyn=highly dangerous asshole, the more dangerous because people who shouldn't take him seriously.

640 Racer X  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:19:17pm

re: #637 windsagio

so you don't care to elaborate; gotcha.

Hows this : You can't prove it but if you describe it in detail rather than just saying 'my personal experience', people will find it much more convincing.

*ahem*

It's the internet. Every post should end with "IMO".

641 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:19:24pm

no drug commercials, no tv...

642 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:19:53pm

re: #641 brookly red

no drug commercials, no tv...

Drug commercials devote at least 2/3 of the time to explaining their side effects anyway.

643 Kruk  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:20:03pm

re: #546 Bagua

Topping it off? You mean with private insurance that is off of the NHS? That is the only case where it would be better.

Or you could pick and choose. (NHS for routine care, private insurance for conditions where you want to avoid a waiting list.) That's the way my own family does it (in NZ, not the UK, but the countries' systems are very similar.) You get the best of both worlds.

644 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:20:29pm

re: #610 palomino

Right, but they live longer than Americans...at a fraction of the health expenditure rate.

Completely different genetic base, completely different lifestyle, risk factors, etc. No where near the same rate of obesity for one key example. Small population of people with certain risk factors for another.

Longevity is not at all a reasonable comparison without adjusting for the variables.

645 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:20:30pm

re: #635 Racer X

Niagra falls have frozen solid!

heh, cool

646 jaunte  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:20:47pm

re: #642 laZardo

"If you experience bleeding from the eyes, consult a doctor."

647 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:20:48pm

re: #640 Racer X

hah :p

Just for that reason, if someone says that something is from 'their personal experience' and doesn't elaborate, my first reaction is to assume they're being less than honest. Thats how the 'net rolls.

Same thing if they say they're a woman :P

648 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:20:53pm

re: #636 SanFranciscoZionist

By whom?

spoofing the Anita Dunn thing a while back

649 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:21:13pm

re: #634 SanFranciscoZionist

And the nice slur on the fictional gay neighbor with the multiple unprotected partners...

I purposely didn't address that because I wanted to maintain some air of decorum on lgf. I tend to lose respect for certain lizards who post crap like that as if it is 'gospel truth.'

650 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:21:26pm

re: #646 jaunte

"If you experience bleeding from the eyes, consult a doctor."

"Anal seepage."

/Blue Collar Tour was funny. There, I said it.

651 SteveC  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:21:35pm

re: #642 laZardo

Drug commercials devote at least 2/3 of the time to explaining their side effects anyway.

The ad that says "If you start to contemplate suicide..." is a bit too much, IMO.

NTTAWWT

///

652 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:21:44pm

I meant to hang out. But, bastards were drinking my beer and laughing. Had to smile, drink as much as I could (every beer I drank was one those fuckers couldn't steal!) and take it.

But now? sigh...

G'night, knuckleheads...

653 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:21:48pm

re: #648 albusteve

I'm hurt steve, SFZ and I make the exact same post, and you respond to her not me :(

/runs off crying

654 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:21:53pm

re: #632 SteveC

I'll sit in this bathtub, you sit in that one, we'll wait on the quicker picker up to kick in, and then we'll be in business!

Why are there two bathtubs side by side in a field of flowers overlooking the ocean?

How do you get them full of warm water?

How do you keep them free of leaves and bugs and dirt between usings?

Once he has an erection, how do you get your bits together, given the bathtubs?

Those ads confuse me so much.

655 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:22:05pm

re: #642 laZardo

Drug commercials devote at least 2/3 of the time to explaining their side effects anyway.

yes I know... it's my field.
on the other hand next time you get sick try shaking a bag of chicken bones.

656 Racer X  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:22:09pm

re: #647 windsagio

hah :p

Just for that reason, if someone says that something is from 'their personal experience' and doesn't elaborate, my first reaction is to assume they're being less than honest. Thats how the 'net rolls.

Same thing if they say they're a woman :P

So you're saying you don't believe me when I say I'm a 23 year old lesbian from Silverlake?

657 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:22:26pm

re: #650 laZardo

"Anal seepage."

/Blue Collar Tour was funny. There, I said it.

You beat me by 10 seconds, you bastard. Although I was going to say "anal leakage". I think mine is better.

658 Unakite  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:22:44pm

re: #579 SanFranciscoZionist

Canada I don't know about. UK you get covered automatically.

Thanks for the response and I wasn't there, but she told me about her experience in the Canadian health system.

FWIW, I have been fortunate enough to have had the opportunity to travel through Canada from the Canadian Rockies to Newfoundland over a period of years, but was injured or sick enough to need to use their medical facilities, so can't speak firsthand.

659 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:22:59pm

re: #656 Racer X

hmm. Signs point to no.

If you are, I'm sure you swing both ways too, and are hot.

660 jaunte  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:23:01pm

re: #654 SanFranciscoZionist

Those ads did make me wonder whose lousy job it was to wrangle the bathtubs out there.

661 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:23:04pm

re: #643 Kruk

Or you could pick and choose. (NHS for routine care, private insurance for conditions where you want to avoid a waiting list.) That's the way my own family does it (in NZ, not the UK, but the countries' systems are very similar.) You get the best of both worlds.

Exactly, and at that point one is paying out quite close to a fully insured person in the US, with other factors cost adjusted. The point being they would get more for less in the UK without also having to payout for the NHS.

662 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:23:08pm

re: #656 Racer X

So you're saying you don't believe me when I say I'm a 23 year old lesbian from Silverlake?

You hot?

663 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:23:12pm

re: #647 windsagio

hah :p

Just for that reason, if someone says that something is from 'their personal experience' and doesn't elaborate, my first reaction is to assume they're being less than honest. Thats how the 'net rolls.

Same thing if they say they're a woman :P

two words
anal retentive

664 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:23:32pm

re: #626 Dark_Falcon

Why backstabbing? (I know why you say genocidal, though I do not agree.)

Backstabbed CJ. Link.

665 Kruk  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:23:44pm

re: #582 Bagua

Yes. Though I hadn't intended to let that slip.

Heh. I had a reply I was typing to that post, but the Net monster must have eaten it. Overtaken by subsequent posts now, though.

666 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:23:46pm

re: #638 windsagio

If he existed, he should sue!

If he existed, he should use protection. (imagine prissy expression of disapproval here)

667 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:23:51pm

aiming for 666...

668 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:24:06pm

re: #667 brookly red

PWNT!

669 SteveC  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:24:12pm

re: #646 jaunte

"If you experience bleeding from the eyes, consult a doctor."

Only medical condition named after a NASCAR driver - Dick Trickle

"I hate to tell you this Phil... it looks like you have Dick Trickle."

"Jeez, Doc. Is it fatal?"

"Depends."

670 Aye Pod  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:24:18pm

Not sure how the fuck Mao came to be in this discussion, but here's some suitable music:

Arise,
You who refuse to be slaves!
With our flesh and blood
Let us build
Our new Great Wall!

671 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:24:42pm

re: #668 windsagio

PWNT!

so close...

672 Racer X  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:24:43pm

re: #662 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You hot?

Yes. But I'm stuck in this old man's body.

673 jaunte  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:24:46pm

re: #666 SanFranciscoZionist

Uh oh, protection gets the 666 post.

674 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:25:02pm

re: #637 windsagio

so you don't care to elaborate; gotcha.

Hows this : You can't prove it but if you describe it in detail rather than just saying 'my personal experience', people will find it much more convincing.

Gotcha is your game, not mine. I offered detail, and you would dispute regardless of what I wrote. I care not, if you are not interested in my perspective, then just ignore me.

675 palomino  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:25:02pm

re: #644 Bagua

Is the same equally true, and the single predominant reason, for the other 25 countries with longer life expectancies? I'd never posit health care as the only reason, but it's likely one key part of a wider nexus.

676 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:25:21pm

re: #673 jaunte

Uh oh, protection gets the 666 post.

birth control is a tool of the devil.

677 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:25:24pm

re: #667 brookly red

aiming for 666...


MisSsSsSsSsSsSsS!

678 SteveC  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:25:56pm

re: #654 SanFranciscoZionist

Once he has an erection, how do you get your bits together, given the bathtubs?

Chumbawamba had the answer - Tubthumping! :)

679 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:26:42pm

re: #642 laZardo

Drug commercials devote at least 2/3 of the time to explaining their side effects anyway.

This drug will probably improve a medical problme you weren't aware of until this very moment.

It will almost certainly cause blindness, diarrhea, auditory hallucinations, hair loss, tooth loss, pancreatic cancer, hemorrhoids or suicidal ideation.

Ask your doctor about this drug today!

680 Racer X  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:27:31pm
681 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:27:36pm

re: #670 Jimmah

Not sure how the fuck Mao came to be in this discussion, but here's some suitable music:

Arise,
You who refuse to be slaves!
With our flesh and blood
Let us build
Our new Great Wall!


[Video]

it was really complicated...but try again and you might get it

682 SteveC  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:28:04pm

re: #656 Racer X

So you're saying you don't believe me when I say I'm a 23 year old lesbian from Silverlake?

How YOU doing?

683 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:28:32pm

re: #679 SanFranciscoZionist

This drug will probably improve a medical problme you weren't aware of until this very moment.

It will almost certainly cause blindness, diarrhea, auditory hallucinations, hair loss, tooth loss, pancreatic cancer, hemorrhoids or suicidal ideation.

Ask your doctor about this drug today!

God willing you won't get sick.

684 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:28:55pm

re: #667 brookly red

aiming for 666...

FAILGET O:

685 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:29:11pm

re: #605 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Who made drug commercials legal? Surfing through hay-fields and all that?


Especially those where reading the legal disclaimers takes longer than delivering the sales pitch. All in the same soothing, sussurating voice.

686 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:29:17pm

re: #664 iceweasel

Backstabbed CJ. Link.

OK, that does change things. Sharing private correspondence is dishonorable.

687 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:29:32pm

re: #683 brookly red

God willing you won't get sick.

or horny...but that's a reach

688 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:29:53pm

re: #684 laZardo

FAILGET O:

yeah I always go longer than I have to...

689 Kruk  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:29:57pm

re: #642 laZardo

Drug commercials devote at least 2/3 of the time to explaining their side effects anyway.

With all sorts of nice tricks like playing happy music in the background, and shiny people in the foreground so the viewer's mind glosses over the info. :)

690 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:30:01pm

re: #675 palomino

Is the same equally true, and the single predominant reason, for the other 25 countries with longer life expectancies? I'd never posit health care as the only reason, but it's likely one key part of a wider nexus.

Absolutely. The US has an obesity epidemic that increases the risk factor for several of the big killers such as Cardiovascular disease and diabetes. Not to mention very different and diverse populations.

691 windsagio  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:30:56pm

oops, gonna be late!

Peace!

692 Racer X  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:31:20pm

re: #682 SteveC

How YOU doing?

LOL!

Ever notice how when a lesbian shows up all the guys get all excited and stuff? Why is that? Like they have any shot at all.

Where are the lady Lizards?

(yes I'm a guy. Yes I do the same damn thing with my lesbian friends).

693 Aye Pod  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:31:21pm

re: #681 albusteve

it was really complicated...but try again and you might get it

Frankly, I don't think anybody 'got it' steve; perhaps YOU should try again?

694 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:32:11pm

re: #678 SteveC

Chumbawamba had the answer - Tubthumping! :)

695 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:32:12pm

re: #692 Racer X

LOL!

Ever notice how when a lesbian shows up all the guys get all excited and stuff? Why is that? Like they have any shot at all.

Where are the lady Lizards?

(yes I'm a guy. Yes I do the same damn thing with my lesbian friends).

I thought WindUpBird was a girl.

There, I said it. ):

696 Kruk  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:32:36pm

re: #661 Bagua

Exactly, and at that point one is paying out quite close to a fully insured person in the US, with other factors cost adjusted. The point being they would get more for less in the UK without also having to payout for the NHS.

But the people in the US do have to pay for the VA, Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare, the insurance benefits of government employees, the people who end in emergancy rooms without the means to pay...

697 Racer X  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:32:49pm
698 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:34:26pm

re: #696 Kruk

And every insured person has to pay for the uninsured in higher prices for insurance, as the hospitals pass whatever cost they can on to the insurance companies, who pass it on to their customers.

We already have socialized health care in this country. We're just really stupid in the way that we go about it, so we managed to spend a shitload more money than necessary.

Yay.

699 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:34:43pm

re: #685 The Sanity Inspector

Especially those where reading the legal disclaimers takes longer than delivering the sales pitch. All in the same soothing, sussurating voice.

well yes but think about it it is all gubermint regulation... Can you imagine what a car commercial would be like it the makers were forced to detail every thing that could happen to you because you drove their product? The list of possible injuries would go on for hours...

700 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:35:21pm

re: #696 Kruk

But the people in the US do have to pay for the VA, Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare, the insurance benefits of government employees, the people who end in emergancy rooms without the means to pay...

Yes indeed, and it is a mess. Not much reason to want to increase the level of Government managed and taxpayer funded health care. Let's clean up what we have first, and then talk about changing things.

701 keloyd  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:35:36pm

Here's a question for those of you who know the law better than I can fake it. Back in the 80's, we went from not having drug commercials on TV to having One. Billion. commercials, up to and including on the Super Bowl. I'm sure Big Pharma claims this is "helping" the public by "informing" them, but we all know it's bollocks.

Is there some legislation or regulatory thing to go back to the old ways? I can't help but think one company has to make ads because all its competitors do. If they all had to quit, we get cheaper stuff, doctors still know what they're doing, and a legion of middle-men are gone.

Bonus - I just remembered, the pharmaceutical industry spent twice as much on marketing as they did on R&D as an industry. I'd cite, but it's too late and I'm going to sleep now. My $10k deductible means I can't afford to get sick from too little sleep.

702 Kruk  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:35:49pm

re: #676 cliffster

birth control is a tool of the devil.

Really? He can't corrupt someone who's never been born, can he?

/

703 Racer X  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:35:54pm
704 SteveC  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:35:55pm

re: #685 The Sanity Inspector

Especially those where reading the legal disclaimers takes longer than delivering the sales pitch. All in the same soothing, sussurating voice.

Now if you want an adventure, check out all the side effects and not so nice shit that can happen with Amiodarone.

However, if Satan had wanted to invent an antiarrhythmic drug, he would have invented amiodarone. There are at least three features of amiodarone that render it diabolical.

705 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:36:48pm

re: #372 Vambo

I'm always angry when the subject of health care in the USA comes up -- the industry ruined my life and the lives of many people I know. You all must be on some really great type of state or gov't assistance to have a high satisfaction with your care - yes, I'm assuming, but it's a fair assumption given the age bracket around here.

Or (more likely) people are fortunate enough to have really excellent coverage through work. Many people in the US do. And I think some of those people here literally don't know anyone who does not, and don't know any of the horror stories (like yours, or like the one I've told here before about my friend) about what can happen even when you've worked all your life and your insurance compant decides not to pay for something.

I've told this story before but my friend and her husband lost all their savings and their house when their son was in an accident that almost killed him. The insurance paid for all the life saving treatment-- but they're bankrupt now and working 4 jobs between the two of them because of what the insurance company decided was 'elective' surgery.
The 'elective' surgery was facial reconstruction, including rebuilding his jaw.

706 jaunte  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:37:30pm

re: #701 keloyd

One thing that happens in drug marketing: if you shift money away from advertising, it just goes to direct marketing/sales.

707 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:37:47pm

re: #697 Racer X

This is funny

A login screen is funny? //

708 Kruk  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:37:49pm

re: #690 Bagua

Absolutely. The US has an obesity epidemic that increases the risk factor for several of the big killers such as Cardiovascular disease and diabetes. Not to mention very different and diverse populations.

But also much lower smoking rates, no?

709 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:38:05pm

re: #697 Racer X

This is funny

It is behind a log in.

710 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:38:16pm

Well it's late, and the thread's too fast, so I'd better bow out. 'Night all. Good health and fat wallets to ya.

711 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:38:33pm

There used to be strong laws prohibiting the advertisement of medicine, yes. re: #706 jaunte

There's still a benefit in not corrupting the doctor-patient thing, though, if you stop the drug advertising.

Especially in this day and age, when anyone interested in treatments for their illnesses can research it online and get abreast of what the norm is and what the leading-edge drugs are.

712 Unakite  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:38:42pm

re: #618 Floral Giraffe

It would be ideal, if everyone we able to afford good health care. Maybe the premiums could be set at a % of income. I know, the emergency appendectomy I had, 5 years ago, the cost as an uninsured patient was $40,000, yet the price my insurance company actually paid was (IIRC) $10,000. Now, $10,000 is conceivably something I could work & pay off in my lifetime. $40,000? Not bloody likely. So, somehow "WE" as the patients in this system, need to find a way to address the pricing differential.

I don't know what that is, but it has to be done.

Rant off.

Not sure that was a rant. I think there is strong agreement. The disagreement seems to be how to get there. Your idea of % of income would be good if you could keep it. One problem we face right now is the stupid health account or whatever they call it. you can put so much in, but if you don't use it you lose it. It's grreat for accountants and taxes, but people like us don't have the crystal ball to tell us who is going to get hurt or sick in the next 12 months won't or can't put the maximum in because we don't want to lose it.

Rant off.

713 palomino  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:38:44pm

re: #690 Bagua

Absolutely. The US has an obesity epidemic that increases the risk factor for several of the big killers such as Cardiovascular disease and diabetes. Not to mention very different and diverse populations.

Granted, we're the fattest people in the world. But just look at Canada, Germany and UK. All are getting fatter due, at least in part, to the fun empty processed calories affordable to nearly all. Are life expectancies there leveling off?

Anyway, my point was that other countries spend way less for populations that actually live longer. It may be a political victory for gop, but the system is really unsustainable in its current form. Costs skyrocket with a per capita GDP that can't keep up. How long can is this system workable before the American public will accept something even more radical than this current bill?

714 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:39:03pm

Watching Temple Grandin. HBO special about a girl with autism back in the 60's. Crazy stuff.

715 Racer X  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:39:10pm

re: #707 cliffster

A login screen is funny? //

Ahh.

Their web site is down. There is a notice telling me to go outside and play for a while.

716 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:39:16pm

re: #695 laZardo

I thought WindUpBird was a girl.

There, I said it. ):

haha well to be fair, my bird-head costume I had as my avatar (and probably will again) is a little girly. :D

717 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:40:02pm

re: #704 SteveC

And as for the Smurfs and Smurfettes on amiodarone, despite their breathing difficulties, unsteady gaits, inability to see at night, and severe skin photosensitivities which preclude their Florida or Arizona vacations, at least their anguish over not being allowed a viable and available alternative will be temporary. For the drug companies, seeing how a Posse of Clinical Excellence operates, will take the only logical business step remaining to them and severely curtail their development of drugs aimed at offering incremental improvements over the current choices.

Oh, THAT'S what happened to Sharmuta. ):

718 jaunte  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:40:59pm

re: #711 Obdicut

I'm not at all a fan of drug advertising, but I think drugs will be promoted direct to doctors behind the scenes if it gets banned completely.

719 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:42:24pm

re: #708 Kruk

But also much lower smoking rates, no?

Not very different IINM

720 Racer X  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:42:56pm

Super Bowl is most watched TV show ever

The New Orleans Saints' victory over Indianapolis in the Super Bowl was watched by more than 106 million people, surpassing the 1983 finale of "M-A-S-H" to become the most-watched program in U.S. television history, the Nielsen Co. said Monday.

721 Kruk  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:43:06pm

re: #700 Bagua

Yes indeed, and it is a mess. Not much reason to want to increase the level of Government managed and taxpayer funded health care. Let's clean up what we have first, and then talk about changing things.

Clean up? I can just see those old folks chasing you down the street, waving their "Keep the Government's hands off my Medicare!" signs. :)

Seriously, isn't it true that the US *Government* already spends more in health care per capita (even adjusted for purchasing power parity) than the total per capita (public and private) spent in countries with "Government run" systems?

722 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:43:31pm

So?

As long as he is a homicidal maniac who worships the correct flavor of Christianity aren't all his sins forgiven? Of course I'm not sure that Pat Robertson can issue "dispensations" directly from God like the Pope can, but surely there is a Protestant equivalent?

//Pat Robertson is a Christian Clergyman in much the same way that L. Ron Hubbard was a scientist...

723 albusteve  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:43:41pm

re: #693 Jimmah

Frankly, I don't think anybody 'got it' steve; perhaps YOU should try again?

ice remarked after the Steyn blurb was posted that he was a genocidal backstabber...in jest I agreed that Mao was too but we should read him anyway, in reference to Anita Dunn...get it?...Anita Dunn and Mao?

724 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:43:48pm

re: #593 Bagua

There are some upsides to that as well, depending on the individual. But on balance my experience is that the bureaucracy creates massive waste and problems in the UK.

We spend more money on health care here than the UK does as a proportion of our economy. And we get less coverage.

We have the massive waste, not the UK.

725 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:44:07pm

re: #718 jaunte

Sure. You can't stamp it out-- but you can do a lot to end the practices.

A great, weird book to read on the pharmaceutical industry-- and don't trust it completely, but it's rather accurate and you can research anything you're interested in, is: Pills-A-Go-Go

I don't endorse their carefree attitude towards drugs, but there's some excellent writing on the pharma industry there, from the severely libertarian point of view.

726 Unakite  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:44:13pm

re: #655 brookly red

yes I know... it's my field.
on the other hand next time you get sick try shaking a bag of chicken bones.

I don't shake them. I just put them in a pot and make chicken stock. :)

727 keloyd  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:44:45pm

I'll see you birth control as a tool of the Devil and raise you saxophone.

I'm thinking if some secret agent man can kill me with 13 things on my desk right now, the Devil is like an evil MacGuyver with his birth control pills and saxophones and Harry Potter novels...ok now I have to sleep for real.

728 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:45:20pm

OK, so the same drug companies that bring vac's are good for making them & people who doubt them are evil anti vac anti science people... but then the same companies make a pill and some one calls them "big" pharma and now they are bad? Oh this will take some sorting out.

729 SteveC  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:45:33pm

re: #717 laZardo

Oh, THAT'S what happened to Sharmuta. ):

I got lucky. I took Amiodarone for six years, got the thyroid tests every year, the breathing test for lung damage, the eye exam (regular, and a specific test for Amiodarone damage) and a couple of other tests - every year.

Then my A-fib changed. Doc could hear it on the stethoscope, but I couldn't feel it, and had no ill effects. So he decided to stop the drug and see what happened. Nothing happened.

Rather than change the dosage (We gotta get that funny beat under control!) he said "It's obviously not working. Let's drop it for six months and see what happens." No changes after six months, so the Big A is off my list!

730 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:45:50pm

re: #722 ausador

So?

As long as he is a homicidal maniac who worships the correct flavor of Christianity aren't all his sins forgiven? Of course I'm not sure that Pat Robertson can issue "dispensations" directly from God like the Pope can, but surely there is a Protestant equivalent?

//Pat Robertson is a Christian Clergyman in much the same way that L. Ron Hubbard was a scientist...

Well whatsisname, the prosperity gospel guy, Creedflo? pushes something very like indulgences.

731 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:46:02pm

re: #724 WindUpBird

We spend more money on health care here than the UK does as a proportion of our economy. And we get less coverage.

We have the massive waste, not the UK.

I noticed you upding'd my #450. It's not really 'waste' if the patient isn't accepted in for treatment in the first place, so no costs are actually incurred for waste to add onto. D:

732 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:49:06pm

re: #728 brookly red

Well, for example, one of the reasons we couldn't get the flu vaccine out quickly was because the vaccine makers were still using the old chicken egg method, which is very slow and outdated. We've now funded billions of dollars of research-- by we, I mean the Federal government-- to fund those companies to industrialized a much-faster method. They didn't want to spend the money themselves to update, you see, because they make shitloads of money either way and saw no reason to make that large a capital expenditure on their own. So the Federal government has to fund research that will then be used by for-profit companies to make a profit.

That's a good example of one of the ways that healthcare is an elastic market, and why a lot of normal market economics fail in describing it.

733 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:49:31pm

re: #713 palomino

Granted, we're the fattest people in the world. But just look at Canada, Germany and UK. All are getting fatter due, at least in part, to the fun empty processed calories affordable to nearly all. Are life expectancies there leveling off?

Anyway, my point was that other countries spend way less for populations that actually live longer. It may be a political victory for gop, but the system is really unsustainable in its current form. Costs skyrocket with a per capita GDP that can't keep up. How long can is this system workable before the American public will accept something even more radical than this current bill?

Yes, and that obesity is a major skew in any sort of population comparisons. Thin people with good genetics and the most primitive modern care will on average outlive obese people with bad genetics, despite the very best medical care available.

Your other points about the cost are valid. I advocate tort reform, combating fraud, and other sensible measures. Litigation and fraud are killing the world's premier health industry here in America, solve those two and there is more than enough to provide for all.

734 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:50:08pm

re: #705 iceweasel

Or (more likely) people are fortunate enough to have really excellent coverage through work. Many people in the US do. And I think some of those people here literally don't know anyone who does not, and don't know any of the horror stories (like yours, or like the one I've told here before about my friend) about what can happen even when you've worked all your life and your insurance compant decides not to pay for something.

I've told this story before but my friend and her husband lost all their savings and their house when their son was in an accident that almost killed him. The insurance paid for all the life saving treatment-- but they're bankrupt now and working 4 jobs between the two of them because of what the insurance company decided was 'elective' surgery.
The 'elective' surgery was facial reconstruction, including rebuilding his jaw.

We have a friend, owned 2 restaurants, had to sell one for a similar situation (son in a car wreck, needed 18 months of treatment to recover, etc).

But "elective" - my daughter had surgery to remove a growth in the bone of her skull, and they classified it as "elective" surgery. When I asked why, I was told "elective" simply means anything other than "emergency" surgery.

What probably happened in that case is the doctor did not make enough of a compelling case for the medical necessity of the surgery, because it surely sounds to me like that should have been covered.

I almost lost my own coverage for a treatment I get regularly, and my doc had to jump through hoops to write a justification for it. I don't know how long ago your friend's situation has been, but if the time for an appeal has not expired, suggest they see another doctor (or go back to the one they had) and demand that he write up a justification for that surgery so that it's covered.

735 Aye Pod  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:50:33pm

Teenage Fanclub - Neil Jung

736 Kruk  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:50:48pm

re: #731 laZardo

I noticed you upding'd my #450. It's not really 'waste' if the patient isn't accepted in for treatment in the first place, so no costs are actually incurred for waste to add onto. D:

Heh. I did some health economics papers to prepare for my PhD. One way of analysing costs is to measure "societal cost", not just health care cost. That means you measure things like lost productivity, family members taking time off work to care for sick relatives, people being "job locked" to avoid losing their health coverage, people passing up pay raises or extra hours so they stay eligible for Medicaid, and so on. The US system as it has massive perverse incentives that end up costing everyone in the long run.

737 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:51:15pm

re: #714 cliffster

Watching Temple Grandin. HBO special about a girl with autism back in the 60's. Crazy stuff.

Temple Grandin is amazing. Errol Morris did an interview with her that ran on PBS like 10 years ago. She's a professor of animal behaviour or some such now. Designs more humane slaughterhouses-- she can't understand how other humans think, but she can understand animals very well. She's more aspergers than autistic.

738 Aye Pod  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:54:00pm

re: #723 albusteve

ice remarked after the Steyn blurb was posted that he was a genocidal backstabber...in jest I agreed that Mao was too but we should read him anyway, in reference to Anita Dunn...get it?...Anita Dunn and Mao?

I got that, but I and others didn't get the connection to anything that was being said here. Basically, you were trying to divert attention from a dodgy link that was actually posted here, towards something that had no immediate relevance to anything that was said here at all.

739 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:54:12pm

re: #700 Bagua

Yes indeed, and it is a mess. Not much reason to want to increase the level of Government managed and taxpayer funded health care. Let's clean up what we have first, and then talk about changing things.

And how would you suggest we go about doing that? Heavier regulation of the insurance companies, as the Swiss do? Government is going to be involved one way or another, by either regulating the market or taking over the system. What would you prefer?

740 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:55:35pm

re: #737 iceweasel

I have a friend who literally has zero empathy or sympathy for other human beings-- you could torture someone in front of him and it would actually just bore him.

He intellectualizes his way towards ethics with something kind of akin to Kantian reasoning with emotions removed.

That's why he checked himself into a, well, private care facility with specialization in psychiatrics; he knew that if he was on his own and not under observation and (limited) treatment, he'd probably eventually kill someone for the sake of convenience or something.

Interesting guy, to say the least.

741 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:55:58pm

re: #738 Jimmah

I got that, but I and others didn't get the connection to anything that was being said here. Basically, you were trying to divert attention from a dodgy link that was actually posted here, towards something that had no immediate relevance to anything that was said here at all.

I'm really not sure what relevance Mao has to pointing out that Steyn is a genocidal, bigoted liar and a backstabbing dirtbag.

742 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:55:59pm

re: #724 WindUpBird

We spend more money on health care here than the UK does as a proportion of our economy. And we get less coverage.

We have the massive waste, not the UK.

No, we spend more money for more coverage. We also have very different societies, legal systems, etc.

They are constantly throwing more money at the NHS and it doesn't seem to improve, costs have doubled in the last decade yet money is largely wasted on the vast governmental bureaucracy that is the NHS.

Side by side they have more waste and wait times and the US has more fraud.

743 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:56:18pm

What's interesting about this piece detailing how the ChiMob is taking down Obama's presidency is that evidently, the MSM is holding back covering the story because it fears losing access...
[Link: www.thewashingtonnote.com...]

744 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:56:41pm

re: #740 Obdicut

I have a friend who literally has zero empathy or sympathy for other human beings-- you could torture someone in front of him and it would actually just bore him.

He intellectualizes his way towards ethics with something kind of akin to Kantian reasoning with emotions removed.

That's why he checked himself into a, well, private care facility with specialization in psychiatrics; he knew that if he was on his own and not under observation and (limited) treatment, he'd probably eventually kill someone for the sake of convenience or something.

Interesting guy, to say the least.

Is he still there?

745 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:57:29pm

For those who missed my earlier post - here's a sign from the Rick Perry/Sarah Palin rally yesterday in Texas - "Homescholers For Perry"

Scroll Down for the photo & apologies for repeating

Morans!

746 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:57:43pm

re: #732 Obdicut

Well, for example, one of the reasons we couldn't get the flu vaccine out quickly was because the vaccine makers were still using the old chicken egg method, which is very slow and outdated. We've now funded billions of dollars of research-- by we, I mean the Federal government-- to fund those companies to industrialized a much-faster method. They didn't want to spend the money themselves to update, you see, because they make shitloads of money either way and saw no reason to make that large a capital expenditure on their own. So the Federal government has to fund research that will then be used by for-profit companies to make a profit.

That's a good example of one of the ways that healthcare is an elastic market, and why a lot of normal market economics fail in describing it.

That actually is a good example of the way things work... my point is that people love the drug companies when they produce vaccines & hate them the rest of the time ... that makes no sense to me.

747 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:58:52pm

re: #739 austin_blue

And how would you suggest we go about doing that? Heavier regulation of the insurance companies, as the Swiss do? Government is going to be involved one way or another, by either regulating the market or taking over the system. What would you prefer?

Sensible regulation is preferable to a take-over. We need to get control of the fraud, not the least of which occurs in the ER, but also this $50 billion in medicare I've heard bandied about. We need less fraud period.

748 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:59:06pm

re: #743 tradewind

What's interesting about this piece detailing how the ChiMob is taking down Obama's presidency is that evidently, the MSM is holding back covering the story because it fears losing access...
[Link: www.thewashingtonnote.com...]

No surprise. Bringing your loyal team along for the ride and giving them the posts of power is a time-honored Chicago tradition, both in government and in organized crime (although in Chicago it's easy to confuse the two).

749 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:59:07pm

re: #744 Dark_Falcon

Yes. He makes quite a good living, too. He's an electrical engineer of godlike proportions-- a physicist doing EE work, basically-- and he has a little apartment at the place and does industrial design work. He says it's an interesting challenge soliciting bids from what is, not minced words, an insane asylum.

He's said that the Germans are the most cool with it, followed by the Danish and the Finns. Americans don't use him much.

750 Racer X  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:59:34pm

re: #743 tradewind

What's interesting about this piece detailing how the ChiMob is taking down Obama's presidency is that evidently, the MSM is holding back covering the story because it fears losing access...
[Link: www.thewashingtonnote.com...]

I've been wondering why so many democrats are bailing out of politics lately. There are plenty of conspiracy theories out there. Sure makes you go hmmm...

751 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 9:59:37pm

re: #740 Obdicut

I have a friend who literally has zero empathy or sympathy for other human beings-- you could torture someone in front of him and it would actually just bore him.

He intellectualizes his way towards ethics with something kind of akin to Kantian reasoning with emotions removed.

That's why he checked himself into a, well, private care facility with specialization in psychiatrics; he knew that if he was on his own and not under observation and (limited) treatment, he'd probably eventually kill someone for the sake of convenience or something.

Interesting guy, to say the least.

I'm not in a psychiatric facility at the moment, if that's what you're referring to...

752 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:00:02pm

re: #737 iceweasel
Asperger's is included in the autism spectrum, among many others.
Ironically, it is expected to increase exponentially as very detail-oriented, tech-savvy individuals meet and marry each other.

753 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:00:21pm

re: #746 brookly red

And my point was that the drug companies didn't upgrade their vaccine-making process because it would have cost them a bunch of money, and that's the main reason the vaccine was so short this year. And so government has had to step in where private industry has failed, to upgrade our vaccine production abilities.

754 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:00:48pm

re: #747 Bagua

Sensible regulation is preferable to a take-over. We need to get control of the fraud, not the least of which occurs in the ER, but also this $50 billion in medicare I've heard bandied about. We need less fraud period.

Quite Concur.

755 Kruk  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:00:56pm

re: #747 Bagua

Sensible regulation is preferable to a take-over. We need to get control of the fraud, not the least of which occurs in the ER, but also this $50 billion in medicare I've heard bandied about. We need less fraud period.

How exactly are the proposed reforms a take over? The US is not getting anything within light years of an NHS style system, and even the public option looks unlikely.

756 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:01:26pm

re: #740 Obdicut

I have a friend who literally has zero empathy or sympathy for other human beings-- you could torture someone in front of him and it would actually just bore him.

He intellectualizes his way towards ethics with something kind of akin to Kantian reasoning with emotions removed.

That's why he checked himself into a, well, private care facility with specialization in psychiatrics; he knew that if he was on his own and not under observation and (limited) treatment, he'd probably eventually kill someone for the sake of convenience or something.

Interesting guy, to say the least.

Is his problem Aspergers do you think? Or something else?
He sounds interesting, for sure. If he recognises a problem and wants help he clearly isn't a sociopath, because regard their lack of empathy as a source of superiority usually.

I have a friend, more of an internet friend, with aspergers. He'll also claim he doesnt feel empathy, but he does and is capable of being a good friend to many. He's also very good to his parents and relatives.
Relationships are out for him, though, and even though we're friends and can talk on the phone even that was very difficult for him. He also can't stand the idea of hanging out.
I know who he is and all, his work and real life identity, his family, but he has many issues about dealing with people.

757 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:01:36pm

re: #737 iceweasel

Temple Grandin is amazing. Errol Morris did an interview with her that ran on PBS like 10 years ago. She's a professor of animal behaviour or some such now. Designs more humane slaughterhouses-- she can't understand how other humans think, but she can understand animals very well. She's more aspergers than autistic.

30 minutes in and I'm trying to keep from crying. Real men don't cry.

758 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:01:39pm

re: #752 tradewind

Asperger's is included in the autism spectrum, among many others.
Ironically, it is expected to increase exponentially as very detail-oriented, tech-savvy individuals meet and marry each other.

You mean nerds are actually capable of mating?

/ B-)

759 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:01:55pm

re: #753 Obdicut

And my point was that the drug companies didn't upgrade their vaccine-making process because it would have cost them a bunch of money, and that's the main reason the vaccine was so short this year. And so government has had to step in where private industry has failed, to upgrade our vaccine production abilities.

so whatever did happen to the flu pandemic anyway?

760 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:02:30pm

re: #750 Racer X
If these four inside the Oval are stonewalling the info around the O, he's toast.

761 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:02:39pm

re: #749 Obdicut

Yes. He makes quite a good living, too. He's an electrical engineer of godlike proportions-- a physicist doing EE work, basically-- and he has a little apartment at the place and does industrial design work. He says it's an interesting challenge soliciting bids from what is, not minced words, an insane asylum.

He's said that the Germans are the most cool with it, followed by the Danish and the Finns. Americans don't use him much.

Someone like him would seem a natural for the CIA. The ideal 'cleaner' would be someone without sympathy or or mercy.

762 Racer X  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:03:18pm
763 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:03:45pm

re: #749 Obdicut

Yes. He makes quite a good living, too. He's an electrical engineer of godlike proportions-- a physicist doing EE work, basically-- and he has a little apartment at the place and does industrial design work. He says it's an interesting challenge soliciting bids from what is, not minced words, an insane asylum.

He's said that the Germans are the most cool with it, followed by the Danish and the Finns. Americans don't use him much.

Mein Führer, I can walk!

764 Kruk  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:03:55pm

re: #758 laZardo

You mean nerds are actually capable of mating?

/ B-)

With each other, yes. :) My wife and I spent every evening in the last fortnight watching Seasons 1-4 of Enterprise. And it was *her* idea. Am I the luckiest guy on Earth or what?

765 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:04:15pm

re: #759 brookly red

We have hopefully dodged probability's bullet yet again.

It's actually probably the best thing that could have happened (though I hope I'm not jinxing us for a second more lethal reinfection), since it never got too terrible but it prompted us to upgrade to be ready in the future. Near-misses can be healthy.

766 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:04:39pm

re: #755 Kruk

How exactly are the proposed reforms a take over? The US is not getting anything within light years of an NHS style system, and even the public option looks unlikely.

A takeover would be a takeover, a reform is a reform.

The takeover in stages is on the back-burner now that Brown won, so let's talk reform and find something with bipartisan support. That would be a good starts.

767 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:05:12pm

re: #758 laZardo

You mean nerds are actually capable of mating?

/ B-)

Yes. My mother is actually quite a nerd in many ways and yet she landed my father.

768 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:05:14pm

re: #765 Obdicut

We have hopefully dodged probability's bullet yet again.

It's actually probably the best thing that could have happened (though I hope I'm not jinxing us for a second more lethal reinfection), since it never got too terrible but it prompted us to upgrade to be ready in the future. Near-misses can be healthy.

well thank goodness we have big pharma on our side!

769 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:05:25pm

re: #757 cliffster

30 minutes in and I'm trying to keep from crying. Real men don't cry.

Yes, they do. Even if they don't want to admit it.
{cliffster}

770 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:05:31pm

re: #761 Dark_Falcon

He used to work for the NSA, but just designing circuits and stuff.

He once designed a gun that shoots knives that explode. That's my favorite design of his.

And he hates physical contact, so he'd make a really prissy assassin.

771 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:06:03pm

re: #763 laZardo

Mein Führer, I can walk!

Upding for the Dr. Strangelove quote.

772 Racer X  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:06:07pm
773 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:06:17pm

re: #768 brookly red

You mean, big pharma that just got a huge grant from the government to upgrade their vaccine-producing abilities, that they were unable to do on their own?

774 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:06:53pm

re: #773 Obdicut

You mean, big pharma that just got a huge grant from the government to upgrade their vaccine-producing abilities, that they were unable to do on their own?

do you want the Vaccines or no?

775 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:06:57pm

re: #764 Kruk

re: #767 Dark_Falcon

Cool, there's hope for me yet. :D

/little bros are aspiring rockstars and there's this unspoken race to see who 'settles down' first.

776 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:07:00pm

re: #758 laZardo
Evidently, but it argues for a little dilution in the gene pool. Maybe an internet genius should look for love at a gym instead of a geekfest, for the kids' sakes.
/okay, a little.../

777 Unakite  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:07:02pm

re: #736 Kruk

Heh. I did some health economics papers to prepare for my PhD. One way of analysing costs is to measure "societal cost", not just health care cost. That means you measure things like lost productivity, family members taking time off work to care for sick relatives, people being "job locked" to avoid losing their health coverage, people passing up pay raises or extra hours so they stay eligible for Medicaid, and so on. The US system as it has massive perverse incentives that end up costing everyone in the long run.

And they want to make it worse??? WTF???

778 brookly red  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:08:04pm

good night good folks.

779 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:08:24pm

re: #770 Obdicut

He used to work for the NSA, but just designing circuits and stuff.

He once designed a gun that shoots knives that explode. That's my favorite design of his.

And he hates physical contact, so he'd make a really prissy assassin.

That's what De Lisle rifles are for. Bolt action .45 ACP silenced carbine. Utterly silent except for the working of the bolt.

/Not advocating killing, just drooling over a firearm again.

780 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:08:57pm

re: #778 brookly red

good night good folks.

Sleep well, brookly.

781 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:09:33pm

re: #770 Obdicut

He used to work for the NSA, but just designing circuits and stuff.

He once designed a gun that shoots knives that explode. That's my favorite design of his.

And he hates physical contact, so he'd make a really prissy assassin.

That's hardcore.

Also I'm reminded of Law Abiding Citizen for some reason. Like the trick gun handle rigged with anesthetic needles.

782 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:10:01pm

re: #736 Kruk

Heh. I did some health economics papers to prepare for my PhD. One way of analysing costs is to measure "societal cost", not just health care cost. That means you measure things like lost productivity, family members taking time off work to care for sick relatives, people being "job locked" to avoid losing their health coverage, people passing up pay raises or extra hours so they stay eligible for Medicaid, and so on. The US system as it has massive perverse incentives that end up costing everyone in the long run.

Agreed, good points and perspective.

783 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:10:18pm
784 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:10:30pm

re: #756 iceweasel

Oh, it's far more than Asperger's. He basically has antisocial personality disorder, but without pleasure-seeking-- he's very cerebral about it. He's a psychopath who doesn't want anything from anyone. He knows that he's not in the least bit normal, and he knows that society doesn't like people like him much, so he's carved out a life for himself out of protection, so to speak.

He's not manipulative, the way most APD people are, though, and not vain-- he's immensely arrogant about how smart he is, but he is really smart, so that helps, I think.

785 van helsing  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:11:00pm

Mary...

Jimi

786 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:11:01pm
787 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:11:09pm

re: #777 Unakite

And they want to make it worse??? WTF???

Come on. We should have paid medical leave for people taking care of sick parents, just as we should have paid medical leave for fathers and not just maternity leave. Aren't these the kind of 'family values' the GOP supposedly likes and wants to encourage?

788 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:12:17pm

re: #781 laZardo

It was actually a great design. It's for FBI or ATF agents dealing with someone who is wearing body armor and who they don't want to just kill-- or, hell, if they do, too.

The gun fires the knife-like projectile, which cuts through the kevlar and hooks on. At which point you can choose to trigger the explosive in the handle of the 'knife' which would then shoot the contents of the knife through the person, or you can tell them that you can do that by remote control and negotiate with them.

I don't think they ever made any. He had a prototype but I never saw it.

789 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:12:32pm

re: #783 Jimmah
...But collectively, the teeth...///

790 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:12:41pm

re: #783 Jimmah

That wasn't nice, Jimmah. Bagua is not a wingnut. Have a downding for the untrue snark.

791 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:12:54pm

re: #784 Obdicut

Oh, it's far more than Asperger's. He basically has antisocial personality disorder, but without pleasure-seeking-- he's very cerebral about it. He's a psychopath who doesn't want anything from anyone. He knows that he's not in the least bit normal, and he knows that society doesn't like people like him much, so he's carved out a life for himself out of protection, so to speak.

He's not manipulative, the way most APD people are, though, and not vain-- he's immensely arrogant about how smart he is, but he is really smart, so that helps, I think.

I've found my role model! *dreamy eyes*

792 van helsing  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:13:06pm

re: #783 Jimmah

And when you start paying a decent portion of your GDP for defense instead of counting on the US, get back to me.

793 Unakite  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:13:14pm

re: #768 brookly red

well thank goodness we have big pharma on our side!

Some people don't get it, do they?

794 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:13:26pm

re: #747 Bagua

Sensible regulation is preferable to a take-over. We need to get control of the fraud, not the least of which occurs in the ER, but also this $50 billion in medicare I've heard bandied about. We need less fraud period.

OK. Let's take a look at that number, GDP in the US in 2009/2010 is/was around 14 trillion dollars.

[Link: forecasts.org...]

Health care as a percentage of GDP was around 16% in 2007.

[Link: investing.curiouscatblog.net...]

Or $2.2 trillion. Or $2,200 billion dollars. So your fraud is less than 4% of the total. Think that's going to make a real difference?

Pfff...

795 Kruk  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:14:40pm

re: #777 Unakite

And they want to make it worse??? WTF???

Those incentives exist because the current system is incredibly fragmented. There is very little incentive for providers or funders to provide continuity of care or offer good preventative care. Why would a hospital invest in systems that prevent, say, diabetics from developing long term complications, when those people are likely not to be its patients in 5 years time? Why would an insurer develop a reputation for taken good care of diabetics when that'll simply draw more diabetic (i.e expensive) patients to it? The current system is driven by short term incentives, not long term outcomes.

796 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:14:40pm

re: #783 Jimmah

Attention Bagua and other US wingnuts.

We in the uk are healthier than you are, and we don't go without healthcare because of a lack of money. Maybe you should stop taking the Daily Mail and Daily Torygraph as the font of all knowledge when it comes to matters pertaining to the UK.

I get the distinct feeling that the real source of wingnut objections to the NHS is that it is funded through taxes, which are levied according to income. Greedy 'have's' want to keep all their precious money, but don't like to admit that; they'd far rather pretend that it's all concerns over efficiency, effectiveness, and the poor little people.

Bollocks.

When you can't even be honest about your motivations, maybe there's something wrong with your politics.

So that bit about the BBC reporting that a 15-year-old girl suffering from a nervous breakdown (see my #450) was repeatedly denied at several facilities before being locked up like a football hooligan for several hours was all some right-wing blog smear?

797 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:15:22pm

re: #794 austin_blue

OK. Let's take a look at that number, GDP in the US in 2009/2010 is/was around 14 trillion dollars.

[Link: forecasts.org...]

Health care as a percentage of GDP was around 16% in 2007.

[Link: investing.curiouscatblog.net...]

Or $2.2 trillion. Or $2,200 billion dollars. So your fraud is less than 4% of the total. Think that's going to make a real difference?

Pfff...

Ack!! Make that .4% of the total.

Brain fart.

798 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:15:23pm

re: #788 Obdicut

It was actually a great design. It's for FBI or ATF agents dealing with someone who is wearing body armor and who they don't want to just kill-- or, hell, if they do, too.

The gun fires the knife-like projectile, which cuts through the kevlar and hooks on. At which point you can choose to trigger the explosive in the handle of the 'knife' which would then shoot the contents of the knife through the person, or you can tell them that you can do that by remote control and negotiate with them.

I don't think they ever made any. He had a prototype but I never saw it.

Very clever idea for an AP round. Still, I think you could counter it with a hardened plate below the Kevlar. Such an approach is called 'Krupp Cemented" armor, after the steel refinery in Essen, Germany that first applied it to armor plate.

799 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:16:25pm

re: #792 van helsing

And when you start paying a decent portion of your GDP for defense instead of counting on the US, get back to me.

Oh, come ON. People have been trashing the man's nation's health plan all night, and ignoring what he says about it, and now we're gonna talk about defense?

800 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:16:44pm

re: #784 Obdicut

Oh, it's far more than Asperger's. He basically has antisocial personality disorder, but without pleasure-seeking-- he's very cerebral about it. He's a psychopath who doesn't want anything from anyone. He knows that he's not in the least bit normal, and he knows that society doesn't like people like him much, so he's carved out a life for himself out of protection, so to speak.

He's not manipulative, the way most APD people are, though, and not vain-- he's immensely arrogant about how smart he is, but he is really smart, so that helps, I think.

He wouldn't meet the US criteria for APD though it seems; not if he's aware of his issue, and isn't manipulative or narcissistic. being arrogant about his brains is a trait that adaptive people with APD often have-- they go into surgery or academia, often. (not kidding).

As crazy as it sounds, he's high functioning and has constructed a life where he can make use of his talents and not hurt others, and is actually helping society. Kudos to him.

801 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:16:48pm

re: #779 Dark_Falcon

He doesn't even like looking at people. He would love to shoot everyone he saw on sight. He'd actually make a much better crazy dude in the trenches than an assassin. He'd do his best to keep himself alive and kill every single enemy soldier he ever laid eyes on.

But I don't think that would be good for him, so I'm glad he's chosen a life that minimizes his tendency to kill everyone who annoys him-- which is everyone.

802 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:16:53pm

re: #794 austin_blue

I expect fraud is much higher than 4%. Just the impact on ERs is massive, but I have no specific figures. I've heard the President say $50 Billion in Medicare/aid alone, but I don't know if that is accurate or not. That is a big pile of money in my book.

803 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:17:38pm
804 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:17:40pm

re: #792 van helsing

And when you start paying a decent portion of your GDP for defense instead of counting on the US, get back to me.

Right. Because the UK did nothing at all in in Iraq.

jesus.

805 van helsing  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:17:41pm

re: #799 SanFranciscoZionist

No, we would talk about dollars and available funds.

806 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:17:45pm

re: #792 van helsing
Yeah... it'll be 'Londonistan Calling '.

807 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:18:30pm

re: #798 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, and the ceramics would stop it too. That was about eight years ago, I think the plates were less common back then but he might have had some solution to that. Weapons weren't his main thing-- it was mainly purpose-built crypto stuff, either to break things or to hide things. You know, most of what the NSA does.

I really don't like them, because they basically tried to convince him not to go get treatment.

808 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:18:45pm

re: #796 laZardo

So that bit about the BBC reporting that a 15-year-old girl suffering from a nervous breakdown (see my #450) was repeatedly denied at several facilities before being locked up like a football hooligan for several hours was all some right-wing blog smear?

And here in the U.S., a twelve-year-old was taken out of school in handcuffs for drawing on her desk, but we're not going to say that shows the normative situation of U.S. schools or law enforcement, are we?

809 webevintage  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:19:01pm

re: #796 laZardo

So that bit about the BBC reporting that a 15-year-old girl suffering from a nervous breakdown (see my #450) was repeatedly denied at several facilities before being locked up like a football hooligan for several hours was all some right-wing blog smear?

I'm confused.
Has anyone claimed that the NHS never makes a mistake, that stupid things happen in the UK just like they do here?
Mistakes happen, humans make mistakes, no system is perfect BUT people do not lose their homes or declare bankruptcy in the UK like the do here because of medical bills.

810 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:19:20pm

re: #804 iceweasel
And gave Brown holy hell for it, too. Made BDS look like a love fest.

811 Aye Pod  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:19:55pm

re: #790 Dark_Falcon

That wasn't nice, Jimmah. Bagua is not a wingnut. Have a downding for the untrue snark.

The veil slipped when Brown was elected. I truly believe that this guy would abandon all pretended criticisms and concerns and celebrate a Glenn Beck presidency. No fucking doubt whatsoever.

812 Unakite  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:20:02pm

re: #779 Dark_Falcon

That's what De Lisle rifles are for. Bolt action .45 ACP silenced carbine. Utterly silent except for the working of the bolt.

/Not advocating killing, just drooling over a firearm again.

Hey, not drooling, but starting to get my kids (12 and 9) interested in firearms and gun safety. Don't have a lot of room in my backyard but am getting a couple airsoft guns for them to shoot targets. Can't shoot much more in the city.

813 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:20:05pm

re: #802 Bagua

I expect fraud is much higher than 4%. Just the impact on ERs is massive, but I have no specific figures. I've heard the President say $50 Billion in Medicare/aid alone, but I don't know if that is accurate or not. That is a big pile of money in my book.

Sorry, according to your number .4%. I mis-posted.

It's your number dude, and in any case miniscule.

Again, what is the fix? What is your policy option?

814 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:20:28pm

re: #808 SanFranciscoZionist

And here in the U.S., a twelve-year-old was taken out of school in handcuffs for drawing on her desk, but we're not going to say that shows the normative situation of U.S. schools or law enforcement, are we?

I'm actually willing to suspect that it is for certain districts. >_>

815 van helsing  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:20:33pm

re: #804 iceweasel

Didn't say nothing weasel. The EU has counted on the US to cover their butts for far too long.

Give me numbers, not flippant snark.

816 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:20:51pm
817 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:20:52pm

re: #815 van helsing

Who exactly is going to invade? Ze Germans?

818 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:21:00pm

re: #796 laZardo

So that bit about the BBC reporting that a 15-year-old girl suffering from a nervous breakdown (see my #450) was repeatedly denied at several facilities before being locked up like a football hooligan for several hours was all some right-wing blog smear?

No, the UK really does have problem with psychiatric cases. Here's a good article on that topic:

In the Asylum by Theodore Dalrymple

819 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:21:03pm

re: #805 van helsing

No, we would talk about dollars and available funds.

Right. We are so broke.

820 Aye Pod  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:21:24pm

re: #796 laZardo

So that bit about the BBC reporting that a 15-year-old girl suffering from a nervous breakdown (see my #450) was repeatedly denied at several facilities before being locked up like a football hooligan for several hours was all some right-wing blog smear?

I don't know - but in a country of 60 million inhabitants, don't you think you might be reading a bit to much into this one story?

821 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:22:32pm
822 van helsing  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:22:40pm

re: #819 SanFranciscoZionist

Right. We are so broke.

What 's our debt now, citizen?

823 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:23:08pm

re: #817 Obdicut

Who exactly is going to invade? Ze Germans?

How about they spend more on defense and do their part to hammer Islamists in places like Afghanistan and Sudan?

824 van helsing  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:23:27pm

re: #817 Obdicut

Who said anything about anyone invading?

825 Kruk  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:23:41pm

re: #792 van helsing

And when you start paying a decent portion of your GDP for defense instead of counting on the US, get back to me.

Okay: We (as in most of the First World) pay less of our GDP for our defence than the US because you look after us. We pay less for new medical procedures and medicines because you subsidise their development with the higher prices you pay. I love my American brethren and all, but you don't *always* have to take one for the team. It's alright to look after yourselves every now and then.

826 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:24:00pm

re: #824 van helsing
That ship has sailed already.

827 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:24:03pm

re: #818 Dark_Falcon

We have a problem with psychiatric cases too: Many of them are homeless and go untreated, since we shut down most of our state-run psychiatric wards. That was when the number of homeless that were veterans started to climb so precipitously, too.

If nothing else, I want fully state-paid health insurance for every veteran and veteran's family. That'll be a good start, and it'll hit many, many of the uninsured as well.

828 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:24:28pm

re: #810 tradewind

And gave Brown holy hell for it, too. Made BDS look like a love fest.

So what?
PS you mean BLAIR.

Don't slag off the UK commitment in Iraq or the sacrifices made. Who the fuck do you think took Basra?

829 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:24:45pm

re: #820 Jimmah

I don't know - but in a country of 60 million inhabitants, don't you think you might be reading a bit to much into this one story?

Maybe I might be obsessing over it, but I do have my reasons.

In '05 I suffered a nervous breakdown while in community college in Sacramento. Campus cops had me brought straight to the Sacramento Mental Health Center. I wasn't insured so I was signed onto some thankfully painless UC Davis medical tests to cover it after being discharged.

I guess I just don't want that sort of thing to happen should we ever get single-payer in the States. I don't know what's worse, being bankrupted for getting care OR just being denied care outright.

830 Unakite  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:25:13pm

re: #783 Jimmah

Attention Bagua and other US wingnuts.

We in the uk are healthier than you are, and we don't go without healthcare because of a lack of money. Maybe you should stop taking the Daily Mail and Daily Torygraph as the font of all knowledge when it comes to matters pertaining to the UK.

I get the distinct feeling that the real source of wingnut objections to the NHS is that it is funded through taxes, which are levied according to income. Greedy 'have's' want to keep all their precious money, but don't like to admit that; they'd far rather pretend that it's all concerns over efficiency, effectiveness, and the poor little people.

Bollocks.

When you can't even be honest about your motivations, maybe there's something wrong with your politics.

I appreciate you supporting and defending your system, I don't appreciate you disparaging ours.

831 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:25:22pm
832 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:25:36pm
833 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:25:37pm
834 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:25:49pm

re: #821 Bagua

Just as I downdinged Jimmah, so I must now downding you. Jimmah is being out of line, but don't follow him into those kinds of insults. It turns the thread into a trainwreck and makes me want to leave.

835 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:26:04pm

re: #822 van helsing

What 's our debt now, citizen?

Jesus. You're really going to push this.

OK, yes. The United States cannot afford to fix our healthcare system because we are spending all our money protecting Britain.

You didn't bring this up for petty reasons, it just stands to reason.

Britain should kiss our tootsies, actually. We could have national health care, but we gave that up to keep the free world safe.

836 austin_blue  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:26:15pm

This is getting nasty. DF, try to keep the peace. Goodnight all. This is no longer a discussion, it's a snark fest. You should all be ashamed.

837 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:26:59pm

re: #828 iceweasel
Yes, I did mean Blair.

838 laZardo  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:27:17pm

re: #836 austin_blue

This is getting nasty. DF, try to keep the peace. Goodnight all. This is no longer a discussion, it's a snark fest. You should all be ashamed.

I'm gonna follow you and back off. BBL.

839 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:27:59pm
840 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:28:00pm

re: #831 Bagua

Let me guess, Iran?

Did I win?

Unsurprisingly, no.

Unless what you wanted to win was the prize for 'most ignorant person slagging off the UK with the least knowledge of facts".

841 van helsing  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:28:05pm

re: #835 SanFranciscoZionist

Jesus. You're really going to push this.

OK, yes. The United States cannot afford to fix our healthcare system because we are spending all our money protecting Britain.

You didn't bring this up for petty reasons, it just stands to reason.

Britain should kiss our tootsies, actually. We could have national health care, but we gave that up to keep the free world safe.

I didn't say that.
As a country, we are are deeper in debt than we ever have been.
Should we keep spending?

842 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:28:13pm

re: #827 Obdicut

We have a problem with psychiatric cases too: Many of them are homeless and go untreated, since we shut down most of our state-run psychiatric wards. That was when the number of homeless that were veterans started to climb so precipitously, too.

If nothing else, I want fully state-paid health insurance for every veteran and veteran's family. That'll be a good start, and it'll hit many, many of the uninsured as well.

That I could support, with the provision that it applies only to spouse and children under 24 ( to allow time to get their own insurance after college or finish law/medical school).

843 tradewind  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:28:37pm

Out like the democrats in 2012...
night ya'll.

844 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:29:06pm
845 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:29:40pm

re: #837 tradewind

Yes, I did mean Blair.

Again, I refer you to Basra. Don't make me haul out the other links about UK military commitment-- and casualties-- in Iraq.

846 van helsing  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:29:51pm

re: #835 SanFranciscoZionist

Jesus. You're really going to push this.

OK, yes. The United States cannot afford to fix our healthcare system because we are spending all our money protecting Britain.

You didn't bring this up for petty reasons, it just stands to reason.

Britain should kiss our tootsies, actually. We could have national health care, but we gave that up to keep the free world safe.

Further, where in the Constitution is universal health care stated as a right?

847 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:29:59pm

re: #823 Dark_Falcon

They don't need to spend more money to do that, they need to send more boots on the ground, and to do that, their populace has to be convinced it is necessary. We severely screwed the pooch in soliciting allies for the invasion of Iraq, and the healthcare debate is making people turn on even Britain in many ways, decrying the NHS to the point that Stephen Hawkings is forced to stick up for the NHS against a moronic attack. We're flipping out over 'socialism', when many political groups in Europe endorse at least what the idiots screaming about socialism would consider socialism.

I agree that they could do a lot more in terms of putting forces down across the map, but that's not an expenditure issue, that's a political will and diplomacy issue.

848 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:30:06pm

re: #843 tradewind

Out like the democrats in 2012...

You wish.

849 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:30:32pm
850 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:30:51pm

re: #841 van helsing

I didn't say that.
As a country, we are are deeper in debt than we ever have been.
Should we keep spending?

We have to spend. No nation the size of ours can just NOT spend money on health care and let the witch doctors take over on a chicken-for-services basis. We need to decide how we spend, and what we spend on.

851 Unakite  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:31:05pm

re: #798 Dark_Falcon

Very clever idea for an AP round. Still, I think you could counter it with a hardened plate below the Kevlar. Such an approach is called 'Krupp Cemented" armor, after the steel refinery in Essen, Germany that first applied it to armor plate.

Woo, very late here and I can't comment on the defensive armor (although I'm all for it), but I saw the Grateful Dead in Essen in 1989 (segue much??).

852 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:31:35pm

re: #725 Obdicut

Sure. You can't stamp it out-- but you can do a lot to end the practices.

A great, weird book to read on the pharmaceutical industry-- and don't trust it completely, but it's rather accurate and you can research anything you're interested in, is: Pills-A-Go-Go

I don't endorse their carefree attitude towards drugs, but there's some excellent writing on the pharma industry there, from the severely libertarian point of view.

It doesn't matter which party is in charge, healthcare is going to bankrupt us, and personally even though I am a Republican I trust our side less right now. Medicare "part D" was a 32 trillion dollar give-away to the pharma companies that was completely unfunded by Congress. Our (Republican) current idea of "health insurance reform" is a 750 billion dollar subsidy to the insurance companies to cover 4 million more people instead of the 40 million that Obama's plan would cover for a "mere" 300 billion dollars more...

Neither side has a realistic plan, in the mean time healthcare costs continue to spiral out of sight and medicare/cade expenses continue to increase by more than 10% per year. The baby boomers are retiring now and costs are quickly escalating out of any semblance of control.

We have absolutely no choice, either we nationalize healthcare and impose spending limits or we eliminate all government funded healthcare other than the Veterans Administration. Those really are our only two options, our current system creates artificial pricing even for those not in the government funded system, those trillions in Federal spending every year enables even ludicrously inefficient companies to make a guaranteed profit.

The entire system simply has to be re-thought and overhauled, every day we don't work together to solve this problem is costing us hundreds of millions of dollars more that we simply do not have any longer. Who would have thought it? Instead of the "Russians" or "Communism" or the "Plague" it looks as though "hospital bills" are going to be what destroys this country...

853 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:31:52pm
854 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:32:28pm

re: #842 Dark_Falcon

It'd be a start. I'll take whatever I can get.

So, agreed, then? I from the left, you from the right, agree an easy first step on health insurance reform in this country would be full health insurance for all veterans, veterans spouses, and their children.

Yay. Let's sign this thing and make it into a law, like I saw on that PSA.

855 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:32:44pm
856 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:32:47pm

re: #846 van helsing

Further, where in the Constitution is universal health care stated as a right?

Did anyone here state that it was? HUH?

857 van helsing  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:32:56pm

re: #850 SanFranciscoZionist

We have to spend. No nation the size of ours can just NOT spend money on health care and let the witch doctors take over on a chicken-for-services basis. We need to decide how we spend, and what we spend on.

I don't know about you, but my paycheck only goes so far.
Who's money should we spend?

858 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:33:48pm

re: #855 iceweasel

re: #853 Jimmah

You know I don't like Bagua one bit, but what the hell is the point of this? And hasn't Charles very clearly said he doesn't want exactly this kind of thing?

859 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:34:54pm
860 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:35:24pm

re: #850 SanFranciscoZionist

We have to spend. No nation the size of ours can just NOT spend money on health care and let the witch doctors take over on a chicken-for-services basis. We need to decide how we spend, and what we spend on.

I keeb saying it, but even McCain had to promise HCR when he ran.

This isn't some socialist plot, but a serious problem for all Americans and it has to be addressed.

861 van helsing  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:35:38pm

re: #856 SanFranciscoZionist

Did anyone here state that it was? HUH?


The federal government is (theoretically) limited in what they do by the Constitution.

What gives them the right to tax the populace for health care?

862 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:35:39pm

re: #857 van helsing

I don't know about you, but my paycheck only goes so far.
Who's money should we spend?

Jesus, we're already spending our own, or have you paid attention to nothing said on this thread?

Stop spewing talking points and get real. I'm not sure what you think I'm advocating, but you're not making much sense.

863 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:36:17pm
864 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:36:21pm

re: #858 Obdicut

I'd be quite happy to converse with dear Bagua if he stuck to issues and didn't insult Jimmah.

865 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:36:36pm

re: #861 van helsing

The federal government is (theoretically) limited in what they do by the Constitution.

What gives them the right to tax the populace for health care?

OH JESUS. What are we talking about? How did we get to the federal government taxing the populace for health care?

866 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:36:56pm

re: #863 Bagua

The point is to shut down opposing views they do not approve of. You know that.

God knows that no one else here would do such a thing.

867 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:36:59pm

re: #858 Obdicut

re: #853 Jimmah

You know I don't like Bagua one bit, but what the hell is the point of this? And hasn't Charles very clearly said he doesn't want exactly this kind of thing?

Quite concur. I recommend a five minute posting timeout for all of us. We need time to cool down.

And I also agree with your #854. Lets see if there is a way we can suggest it during the summit later in the week.

868 Irenicum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:37:03pm

Is it me or do many folks see corporate pharma and (non) insurance companies as being essentially pure as the driven snow while anything gov related is of teh debil? I'm sorry, but as an Augustinian democrat I see every human institution as being corrupted from the get go. But that actually acts as a leveling agent. Thus corporate interests need to be counter balanced by governmental intervention. They check each other (ideally) from their totalitarian impulses. What I see now is the confluence of corporate and governmental interests subverting any balance/tension between the two. That, if I may say so myself, is the textbook definition of fascism. But hey, I'm a crazy lefty Christian, so please don't listen to anything I say.

869 van helsing  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:37:21pm

re: #862 SanFranciscoZionist

Jesus, we're already spending our own, or have you paid attention to nothing said on this thread?

Stop spewing talking points and get real. I'm not sure what you think I'm advocating, but you're not making much sense.

Talking points?
Who's money should we spend?

870 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:38:30pm

re: #869 van helsing

Talking points?
Who's money should we spend?

Yeah, talking points. And that would be 'whose money'.

You clearly don't understand what I'm saying.

871 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:38:40pm
872 van helsing  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:40:38pm

re: #865 SanFranciscoZionist

OH JESUS. What are we talking about? How did we get to the federal government taxing the populace for health care?

When the government imposes a penalty for not having health care, what makes that different than a tax?

And which section of the Constitution empowers the federal government to do that?

873 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:41:08pm
874 webevintage  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:41:26pm

We had snow today in Central Arkansas.
We never get snow.

and right now it is doing it again.
Big fat snowflakes.

...he heard the snow falling faintly through the universe and faintly falling, like the descent of their last end, upon all the living and the dead.

875 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:41:42pm

re: #867 Dark_Falcon

You have seen this, right?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

876 van helsing  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:41:51pm

re: #870 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, talking points. And that would be 'whose money'.

You clearly don't understand what I'm saying.

Good point. I apologize for my bad grammar.
Whose money should we spend?

877 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:43:32pm

re: #868 Irenicum

Is it me or do many folks see corporate pharma and (non) insurance companies as being essentially pure as the driven snow while anything gov related is of teh debil? I'm sorry, but as an Augustinian democrat I see every human institution as being corrupted from the get go. But that actually acts as a leveling agent. Thus corporate interests need to be counter balanced by governmental intervention. They check each other (ideally) from their totalitarian impulses. What I see now is the confluence of corporate and governmental interests subverting any balance/tension between the two. That, if I may say so myself, is the textbook definition of fascism. But hey, I'm a crazy lefty Christian, so please don't listen to anything I say.

Yes.
And the irony here is that nearly all of us would agree on many things if we could put down the bullshit partisan points and personal bickering.
I don't know ANYONE on the left--or here!-- who approves of the deal Obama cut with big pharma in april, for example.
But we never get to talk about policy in any rational, non-partisan way here, because too many want an Obama-bash fest or are simply uninformed on the real policy issues.

This also isn't a policy blog, and I don't mean that disrespectfully at all-- CJ has said he's not a policy guy, and frankly I think he prefers to run a very neutral kind of blog-- he throws out stories that interest him and likes for people to discuss them. He isn't interested in taking sides or telling people what to think.

878 Irenicum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:43:54pm

re: #874 webevintage

That proofs climate chance is rong! Reely, reely it duz!! (sorry, I couldn't resist)

879 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:43:55pm

re: #872 van helsing

When the government imposes a penalty for not having health care, what makes that different than a tax?

And which section of the Constitution empowers the federal government to do that?

Ah. So we're going to disregard this entire discussion, and go to one detail of the current bill that chaps your hide? Nothing else matters.

OK. I think that one's a bad, or at least iffy, idea as well. That is no reason to disparage a U.S. ally and whine about your paycheck, and disregard all the real and detailed issues we need to solve that were raised on this thread.

880 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:44:28pm

re: #875 Obdicut

You have seen this, right?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Let's not, and say we did.

881 Kruk  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:45:15pm

re: #850 SanFranciscoZionist

We have to spend. No nation the size of ours can just NOT spend money on health care and let the witch doctors take over on a chicken-for-services basis. We need to decide how we spend, and what we spend on.

Not to mention that money correctly spent on health care not only avoids more expensive procedures (compare the cost of making sure someone can afford their generic blood pressure pills to the cost of surgery to treat a stroke and rehabilitation afterwards), it also reaps benefits in other areas like productive employment and the taxes generated, vs chronic disability and all its costs.

882 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:46:46pm
883 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:46:54pm

re: #880 SanFranciscoZionist

In-goddamn-deed.

884 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:47:13pm
885 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:47:38pm

Alright!

Bagua, Iceweasel, and Jimmah are all getting timeouts...

Here is your pointy green hat, now go sit on the stool in the corner and be quiet for five minutes. If your really good I might let you have cookie afterward.

///

886 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:48:23pm
887 srb1976  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:49:05pm

Evening folks!

888 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:49:17pm

re: #880 SanFranciscoZionist

Let's not, and say we did.

Quite Concur.

889 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:50:12pm
890 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:50:41pm

Mmmm ... delicious strife.

891 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:50:58pm

Sorry, any american who pretends the UK has been anything other than the major US military ally in Iraq and in the "GWOT" generally, and who thereby is snotty about the MANY uk troops who served and died, is going to get a massive ass-reaming from me.

And not the fun kind.

Be advised.

892 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:51:29pm
893 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:51:40pm
894 Irenicum  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:52:35pm

Ah, the joys of watching internecine warfare. With that, g'nite gang. Love you all, esp. those I disagree with.

895 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:52:40pm

re: #893 iceweasel

I didn't address him, and I'm no longer asking him to answer me.

I think you and Jimmah might gain quite a bit by not talking to him for awhile.

896 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:53:31pm

re: #890 goddamnedfrank

Mmmm ... delicious strife.

Random UK info here: "trouble and strife" is rhyming (cockney) slang for "wife".

Just spreading a little joke to lighten the mood, folks...

897 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:54:13pm

re: #891 iceweasel

Sorry, any american who pretends the UK has been anything other than the major US military ally in Iraq and in the "GWOT" generally, and who thereby is snotty about the MANY uk troops who served and died, is going to get a massive ass-reaming from me.

And not the fun kind.

Be advised.

I'd like to add to this that anyone disparaging the military contributions of a staunch U.S. ally on this blog would normally expect to hear objections to such, and for good reason.

898 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:54:45pm
899 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:54:49pm

re: #895 Obdicut

I didn't address him, and I'm no longer asking him to answer me.

I think you and Jimmah might gain quite a bit by not talking to him for awhile.

I concur, I concur, by golly, I concur!

900 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:56:03pm

re: #896 iceweasel

Random UK info here: "trouble and strife" is rhyming (cockney) slang for "wife".

Just spreading a little joke to lighten the mood, folks...

It is appreciated, ice, and rather Shakespearean too.

901 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:56:28pm

re: #899 SanFranciscoZionist

I concur, I concur, by golly, I concur!


Thank you for your support SFZ. Much appreciated.

902 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:56:46pm
903 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:56:55pm

re: #893 iceweasel

Ok, then, let it be war.

Hey, have you answered Obdicut yet?

You..uhh...have heard the phrase "words on a screen" right? Returning the childish behaviour of others in spades does not increase or amplify your reputation on any board I have ever been associated with (well, except for "b").

/

904 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:57:19pm

re: #897 SanFranciscoZionist

I'd like to add to this that anyone disparaging the military contributions of a staunch U.S. ally on this blog would normally expect to hear objections to such, and for good reason.

Nobody expects the Polish inquisition.

905 van helsing  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:57:45pm

re: #879 SanFranciscoZionist

Ah. So we're going to disregard this entire discussion, and go to one detail of the current bill that chaps your hide? Nothing else matters.

OK. I think that one's a bad, or at least iffy, idea as well. That is no reason to disparage a U.S. ally and whine about your paycheck, and disregard all the real and detailed issues we need to solve that were raised on this thread.

When did I disparage the UK military?
Stating a fact is not whining.

Where in the Constitution is the Federal government empowered to provide health care for every one?

906 srb1976  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:58:48pm

re: #904 goddamnedfrank

Nobody expects the Polish inquisition.

907 Kruk  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:59:04pm

re: #904 goddamnedfrank

Nobody expects the Polish inquisition.

Heh. Updinged for the Monthy Python reference.

Anyway, I got to get on the treadmill, and do my own bit to keep health care costs down. Night, all.

908 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 10:59:15pm

re: #898 Bagua

Bagua, when Jimmah took that swing at you by calling you a wingnut, I downdinged him and reprimanded him for it. I consider you to be a friend and alley here, that is why I'm begging you to stop these attacks. They've turned this thread into a train wreck. Jimmah bears a large share of the blame, but you've got to stop too. Please, for me?

909 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:00:15pm

Alright, I think it's time for bed, since this thread is doing nothing to contribute to my calm.

Off to make slanderous attacks (which consisted of quoting, in their entirety, two posts, without alteration) elsewhere.

910 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:01:02pm

re: #897 SanFranciscoZionist

I'd like to add to this that anyone disparaging the military contributions of a staunch U.S. ally on this blog would normally expect to hear objections to such, and for good reason.

Yes. and if anyone here tried to slag off Israel they WOULD have their asses kicked.
I'm sick of people doing it to the UK. I'm especially sick about them trotting out some bullshit about the military like 'we saved your ass in ww2".
That is a fucking lie, and loads of people here act like it's true. More to the point, they denigrate what the UK did (and does) to support US military efforts, and they would NEVER get away with saying the same shit about Israel here.

911 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:01:32pm
912 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:03:11pm

re: #905 van helsing

When did I disparage the UK military?
Stating a fact is not whining.

Where in the Constitution is the Federal government empowered to provide health care for every one?

You're not reading what I'm writing.

913 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:04:54pm

re: #905 van helsing

When did I disparage the UK military?
Stating a fact is not whining.

Where in the Constitution is the Federal government empowered to provide health care for every one?

It isn't and realistically it cannot afford to, however we are already rapidly going broke paying for the healthcare we have already guarenteed to tens of millions at the governments expense. The system we have now isn't "flawed" it is fundamentally insupportable and catastrophic to the countries finances. I don't support either parties current bullshit plan to "fix" healthcare, but the fact remains that we have to do something to change the status quo.

914 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:05:56pm
915 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:06:10pm

Didn't this thread start out with Pat Robertson doing Charles Taylor's dirty work?

916 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:06:35pm
917 Cheechako  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:07:07pm

re: #783 Jimmah

Attention Bagua and other US wingnuts.

We in the uk are healthier than you are, and we don't go without healthcare because of a lack of money. Maybe you should stop taking the Daily Mail and Daily Torygraph as the font of all knowledge when it comes to matters pertaining to the UK.

I get the distinct feeling that the real source of wingnut objections to the NHS is that it is funded through taxes, which are levied according to income. Greedy 'have's' want to keep all their precious money, but don't like to admit that; they'd far rather pretend that it's all concerns over efficiency, effectiveness, and the poor little people.

Bollocks.

When you can't even be honest about your motivations, maybe there's something wrong with your politics.


My cousin in Inverness has needed surgery to relieve constant back pain. She can hardly walk. She had to wait 6 months for a surgery date. One month before the surgery the date was post-poned for another 2 months. All that time she was essentially an invalid and could not leave her home. Here in the U.S. that surgery could have been scheduled within a week or two.

I don't care how you pay for medical care, if you can't get it when you need it, it's pretty much worthless.

918 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:08:29pm

re: #911 Bagua

Bagua, I asked for a cession of the attacks and you used your reply to keep right on going. So now I'm going to be more blunt: Step off. And Jimmah, ice, that goes for you too. We all need to back off. No one here is a villain. We've all worked together to knock off rat trolls that infested dead thread and we still do on occasion. We need to remember that the things that unite us are greater than the things that divide us.

919 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:08:30pm
920 van helsing  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:09:51pm

re: #912 SanFranciscoZionist

I did not read the whole thread.

Sorry. If you can give me a synopsis that will enlighten me in regards to spending other people's money to achieve the goal universal health care, I'll reconsider my earlier posts.

921 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:10:30pm

re: #915 SanFranciscoZionist

Didn't this thread start out with Pat Robertson doing Charles Taylor's dirty work?

Yep, but like a lot of LGF thread since autumn 2009, it's veered into the Flamewar Wasteland.

922 van helsing  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:11:11pm

re: #913 ausador

It isn't and realistically it cannot afford to, however we are already rapidly going broke paying for the healthcare we have already guarenteed to tens of millions at the governments expense. The system we have now isn't "flawed" it is fundamentally insupportable and catastrophic to the countries finances. I don't support either parties current bullshit plan to "fix" healthcare, but the fact remains that we have to do something to change the status quo.

And spending more to fix a fucked up system will work how?

923 TheMatrix31  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:12:58pm

lmao

924 Aye Pod  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:13:18pm

re: #917 Cheechako

My cousin in Inverness has needed surgery to relieve constant back pain. She can hardly walk. She had to wait 6 months for a surgery date. One month before the surgery the date was post-poned for another 2 months. All that time she was essentially an invalid and could not leave her home. Here in the U.S. that surgery could have been scheduled within a week or two.

I don't care how you pay for medical care, if you can't get it when you need it, it's pretty much worthless.

What if she couldn't afford heath care insurance?

925 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:13:58pm
926 torrentprime  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:14:05pm

re: #922 van helsing

And spending more to fix a fucked up system will work how?

Yeah! Take that morans! Fixing something that's broken is such a waste of money! You betcha! Keep wasting money rather than fix something; that's what Reagan said anyway.

Sigh.

Is the part where conservatives pretend the scoring of various House bills didn't show a cost savings over time? Where they defend continuing to spend more on less rather than reigning in costs and increasing competition? I love that part.

927 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:14:21pm

re: #920 van helsing

I did not read the whole thread.

Sorry. If you can give me a synopsis that will enlighten me in regards to spending other people's money to achieve the goal universal health care, I'll reconsider my earlier posts.

No, I don't think I'll bother. You can have your discussion with whoever the hell you think you are speaking to, because it's definitely not me. But don't let me stop you, you tell that imaginary liberal in your head!

928 van helsing  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:14:54pm

re: #921 Dark_Falcon

Yep, but like a lot of LGF thread since autumn 2009, it's veered into the Flamewar Wasteland.

Got to agree.
I landed here about #700 and thought it was a health care thread.
After reading the headline I can only strike myself sharply on the forehead with my open palm...

I can be a dumbass at times...

929 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:15:22pm

re: #923 TheMatrix31

Matrix, I'm glad you're here. Can you help me calm things down. I'm doing my best to act as peacemaker, but I need some help. SFZ is helping but you'd put us over the top.

930 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:16:02pm
931 lostlakehiker  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:17:18pm

re: #802 Bagua

I expect fraud is much higher than 4%. Just the impact on ERs is massive, but I have no specific figures. I've heard the President say $50 Billion in Medicare/aid alone, but I don't know if that is accurate or not. That is a big pile of money in my book.

If there's that much fraud, why has the Obama administration not bothered to do anything to rein it in? Why have they not offered simple legislation to correct the fraud, instead of trying to shoot the moon and take over health care generally?

The pathetic, miserable, stinking record of health care in states that have "nationalized" health care is proof enough that even the democrats don't expect it to work as health care reform. They know, as the Mass. voters know, as we all know, that it will stink at the national level too.

But however bad it is as medicine, as a power grab it's beautiful from the point of view of democrats. And they've already been talking about how they'd use that power. For instance, Obama has indicated that he would decree that medical schools and nursing schools would have to meet strict quotas on admissions: if X percent of the population comes from ethnic group Y, then X percent of the MD and nursing degrees must go to group Y. Never mind standards.

If the way TARP funds were divvied up is any clue, (and before that, the way highway funds were split) the allocation of resources for medical care would be hugely lopsided in favor of blue states. Blue states got about twice their share of highway funds until the Bush reforms, after all.

So: you hand out jobs to unqualified "doctors", you squeeze the red states of health care resources until they cry uncle and vote blue, and health care reform has worked famously no matter how much of a mess it's been as a purely medical matter.

Even Massachusetts, bluer than which no state is, thought better of that agenda. Party apparatchiks may be that cruel and venial, but blue state voters are not.

932 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:17:39pm

re: #929 Dark_Falcon

Matrix, I'm glad you're here. Can you help me calm things down. I'm doing my best to act as peacemaker, but I need some help. SFZ is helping but you'd put us over the top.

SFZ is swinging between a desire for peace, and the immense crabbiness that comes from too much discussion of health care. Also, she's goin' to bed in about fifteen minutes. So if Matrix can fill in, much obliged!

933 Aye Pod  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:18:15pm

re: #929 Dark_Falcon

Matrix, I'm glad you're here. Can you help me calm things down. I'm doing my best to act as peacemaker, but I need some help. SFZ is helping but you'd put us over the top.

Hey Mr Dracula, could you also look after these blood bags while I nip off to get some coffee?

934 van helsing  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:18:27pm

re: #926 torrentprime

Yeah! Take that morans! Fixing something that's broken is such a waste of money! You betcha! Keep wasting money rather than fix something; that's what Reagan said anyway.

Sigh.

Is the part where conservatives pretend the scoring of various House bills didn't show a cost savings over time? Where they defend continuing to spend more on less rather than reigning in costs and increasing competition? I love that part.

The asshats that put the system into place are most definitely the ones I'd want to fix it.

Yup. For sure.

Go look at the projected costs for Medicare from 1965. ..

Yeah, I trust the CBO.

935 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:18:28pm
936 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:18:52pm

re: #925 Bagua

Darkfalcon, I'm not OK with being insulted out of the blue and then being asked not to reply, especially as this is a repeating activity from the same couple of people who have done this several times in an obviously coordinated manner. I reserve the right to return insults. Period.

I hear you, Bagua, and I'm not disagreeing. But we've got to find ways to keep these flame wars from breaking out. To that end, I propose an official ban on calling any regular poster on LGD either a wingnut or a moonbat. We are all sane people here and we need to recognize it. Those terms should be reserved for the crazies. So let's only use them for the nuts in the future. Does that meet with the group's approval?

937 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:18:55pm

Man, I'm too tired to get back in this. But I did make a new avatar!

938 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:19:04pm

re: #929 Dark_Falcon

Matrix, I'm glad you're here. Can you help me calm things down. I'm doing my best to act as peacemaker, but I need some help. SFZ is helping but you'd put us over the top.

DF, please. Did Matrix's comment strike you as that of a peacekeeper?

No need to ask me. Gus or someone else can fill you in.

939 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:19:11pm

re: #933 Jimmah

Hey Mr Dracula, could you also look after these blood bags while I nip off to get some coffee?

Doctorrr...acula!

940 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:19:17pm

re: #935 Bagua

You are such a clown Jimmah. Are you happy to be known as an Arsehole? People are trying to chill the thread and you just keep pressing away, eh. You are very transparent mate, and I know all about the coordination.

This isn't helping with the chilling. Just to let you know.

941 van helsing  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:19:49pm

re: #927 SanFranciscoZionist

No, I don't think I'll bother. You can have your discussion with whoever the hell you think you are speaking to, because it's definitely not me. But don't let me stop you, you tell that imaginary liberal in your head!

OK.
I'm convinced and overwhelmed by your brutal logic.

942 TheMatrix31  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:20:14pm

re: #929 Dark_Falcon

Appreciate the confidence, but nah, I'll just sit quietly and watch TV. There's no real point in trying, man.

943 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:20:39pm

re: #941 van helsing

OK.
I'm convinced and overwhelmed by your brutal logic.

Just quote Maggie Thatcher and get it over with.

944 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:21:22pm

re: #936 Dark_Falcon

I hear you, Bagua, and I'm not disagreeing. But we've got to find ways to keep these flame wars from breaking out. To that end, I propose an official ban on calling any regular poster on LGD either a wingnut or a moonbat. We are all sane people here and we need to recognize it. Those terms should be reserved for the crazies. So let's only use them for the nuts in the future. Does that meet with the group's approval?

I will happily volunteer to be called "moon-nuts"

945 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:21:44pm
946 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:22:06pm

re: #944 WindUpBird

I will happily volunteer to be called "moon-nuts"

lol. You're a good egg WindUpBird.

947 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:22:42pm
948 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:22:50pm

re: #915 SanFranciscoZionist

Didn't this thread start out with Pat Robertson doing Charles Taylor's dirty work?

Pat Robertson doesn't know the difference between scripture, wishful thinking, and urban legend, he has made that manifestly clear in the last decade or so. I'm not sure if he still honestly believes he is doing the Lord's work or not, I do know that he would do or say anything to attempt to remain relavent and keep his show going for just a little longer.

Pat must never have heard the old homily that says "Never trust anyone who prays in public," BTW that is based on a scripture too...

949 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:22:56pm

re: #938 iceweasel

DF, please. Did Matrix's comment strike you as that of a peacekeeper?

No need to ask me. Gus or someone else can fill you in.

I know what you're saying, ice. but I was seeing if he could be gotten to help calm things. I am casting about for something, anything to get things settled down. I don't like going to bed while people are still fighting.

950 van helsing  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:23:07pm

re: #943 SanFranciscoZionist

Just quote Maggie Thatcher and get it over with.

Again, I bow to your argument.

You win.
I'll go fall on my sword now.

951 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:23:52pm
952 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:23:52pm

re: #950 van helsing

Again, I bow to your argument.

You win.
I'll go fall on my sword now.

Well. That was easy. Never even figured out what the argument was about, but I win!

953 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:24:31pm

Oops. Looks like Satan may have revisited Pat's contract after all. Pat was sure Charles Taylor was taken care of and would keep his mouth shut.

That's what you get for blaming shit on the Devil when you know it ain't true.

I thin it's time Pat got his own celebrity roast goin'.

954 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:25:11pm

re: #949 Dark_Falcon

I know what you're saying, ice. but I was seeing if he could be gotten to help calm things. I am casting about for something, anything to get things settled down. I don't like going to bed while people are still fighting.

You're a good guy, D_F, but sometimes you've just got to let people do what they do and not let it bother you too much.

(Getting sleepy.)

955 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:26:11pm

re: #953 Cato the Elder

Oops. Looks like Satan may have revisited Pat's contract after all. Pat was sure Charles Taylor was taken care of and would keep his mouth shut.

That's what you get for blaming shit on the Devil when you know it ain't true.

I thin it's time Pat got his own celebrity roast goin'.

Be careful, Cato, we decided yesterday that it wasn't cool to discuss burning people at the stake.

956 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:26:32pm
957 van helsing  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:27:52pm

re: #926 torrentprime

When did Reagan say that?
You have a quote perchance?

958 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:28:18pm

re: #951 Bagua

I agree. But should I just roll over? Is it wrong to return the kindness to people who attempt harm?

I think you're all really worked up, and there comes a point, usually three exchanges in, where it becomes mutual combat, and we send all of you to the dean's office.

Except that Charles is probably asleep, if he has any sense.

959 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:28:18pm

re: #955 SanFranciscoZionist

Be careful, Cato, we decided yesterday that it wasn't cool to discuss burning people at the stake.

I was talking about a comedy show.

960 torrentprime  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:28:19pm

re: #931 lostlakehiker

If there's that much fraud, why has the Obama administration not bothered to do anything to rein it in? Why have they not offered simple legislation to correct the fraud, instead of trying to shoot the moon and take over health care generally?

Offering a public option is "taking over health care"? I know that's Rush and Beckspeak, but people here believe that? Even though no one tried to take over anything? Scare tactics worked, huh?

The pathetic, miserable, stinking record of health care in states that have "nationalized" health care is proof enough that even the democrats don't expect it to work as health care reform.


The pathetic, miserable, stinking record of health care in states that have "kind of tried to fix" health care is proof enough that a public option needs a national risk pool, not a state-based one. FTFY

They know, as the Mass. voters know, as we all know, that it will stink at the national level too.


Green lantern theory again ("wish reform into the corn field, Timmy"). The polls showing a majority support for the public option don't exist in FOXLand.

961 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:28:25pm

re: #736 Kruk

Heh. I did some health economics papers to prepare for my PhD. One way of analysing costs is to measure "societal cost", not just health care cost. That means you measure things like lost productivity, family members taking time off work to care for sick relatives, people being "job locked" to avoid losing their health coverage, people passing up pay raises or extra hours so they stay eligible for Medicaid, and so on. The US system as it has massive perverse incentives that end up costing everyone in the long run.

One big reason I'm a proponent of health care reform. because buying your own health care without the economics of scale of a large company is prohibitively expensive.

Contractors? Hosed.

Freelancers? Screwed.

Entrepreneurs? Discouraged.

Very small business owners, artists, craftspeople? Soaked and denied coverage.

We have a spirit of entrepreneurship in this country, which is being strangled, because people are scared to death of leaving the job where they have health insurance, even as they're ready to strike out on their own, and then being fucked over and out by recission and pre-existing condition rules.

Maybe I just have more access to people in their 20's and 30's than the average LGFer, who are entrepreneurs, craftspeople, and small business owners, but they're all concerned about the fact that there's just no way many of them can swing health care costs. many of them only have health coverage because they have the fortune to have spouses who are employed with a big company with health insurance. The odds are against them, the incentives are to stay a wage slave as opposed to innovating. As opposed to making a new product, or starting a business, following through with an idea and doing what this country is supposedly all about. If you're an entrepreneur with a chronic health condition? God fucking help you.

962 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:28:43pm

re: #949 Dark_Falcon

I know what you're saying, ice. but I was seeing if he could be gotten to help calm things. I am casting about for something, anything to get things settled down. I don't like going to bed while people are still fighting.

That's cool.
Matrix and I had a fairly civil conversation recently. I do have hopes he'd act in the way you suggest. Perhaps he will.

963 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:29:18pm

re: #955 SanFranciscoZionist

Be careful, Cato, we decided yesterday that it wasn't cool to discuss burning people at the stake.

Burning steak for the people though, always relevant :D

964 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:30:03pm

re: #11 jaunte

Just in case anyone has forgotten:

.

Always nice of Pat to remind us that the god he worships is a petty, spoiled brat that throws murderous tempter tantrums whenever he doesn't get his way.

Robertson is irredeemable scum. I feel pity for the people who have been fooled into thinking he's a good Christan man.

965 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:30:10pm

re: #959 Cato the Elder

I was talking about a comedy show.

We also decided it wasn't FUNNY to talk about burning people at the stake.

Although, I have to admit, a celebrity roast of Pat Robertson would be quite funny. He probably wouldn't be cool and bring seven girlfriends, the way Hefner did to his Friar's Club roast, though.

I was annoyed. Several of the comedians made fun of the girls. Cheap shots. They were just there as dates.

966 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:30:42pm
967 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:31:08pm
968 torrentprime  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:33:43pm

re: #957 van helsing

When did Reagan say that?
You have a quote perchance?

Somewhere a light bulb is going on.

969 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:34:26pm
970 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:34:45pm
971 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:35:19pm
972 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:35:32pm

re: #967 Bagua

This time I have to agree with you. While no one is blamless here, Jimmah did start it. Jimmah, could you please apologize to Bagua for calling him a wingnut? No matter how much he may have owned the label when Brown won, you used it as a pejorative. Say you are sorry for that, and then all parties can offer more general apologies and we can put this fight to bed. Its the smart and honorable thing to do.

973 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:35:42pm

I'm going to bed. I'm tired, and my husband is cute.

Good luck everyone.

Falcon, don't let the squabbling wear you down.

974 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:36:17pm
975 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:37:09pm

re: #973 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm going to bed. I'm tired, and my husband is cute.

Good luck everyone.

Falcon, don't let the squabbling wear you down.

Thanks SFZ. However, I have to go to bed soon, so I need to hurry if i'm to calm things down.

976 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:37:12pm
977 Cheechako  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:37:25pm

re: #924 Jimmah

What if she couldn't afford heath care insurance?


Well, her husband is a retired Inverness city employee. In the same situation in the U.S., as a retired municipal employee, they would have private insurance available in retirement. Also, at her age (over 65) she would have Medicaid to assist in covering the cost. The big difference is having to wait 8 months in Scotland vs. no more than 2 weeks in the U.S.

978 torrentprime  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:37:46pm

re: #934 van helsing

The asshats that put the system into place are most definitely the ones I'd want to fix it.

Yup. For sure.

Go look at the projected costs for Medicare from 1965. ..

Yeah, I trust the CBO.

So we abandon study, logic, and accounting and just go with what "sounds cheaper"? Really? We just fall back to the GOP "war on elitists" and trust our guts for cost saving? And that means of course that you're trusting the Republicans to fix it, because they never voted for Medicare, ever-I-swear, but the Democrats can't be trusted no matter what because they want to reign in costs? And in the meantime, while nothing is fixed, spiraling health care costs should continue to drain America's businesses and increase the USA debt? Good plan!

979 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:38:01pm

re: #965 SanFranciscoZionist

We also decided it wasn't FUNNY to talk about burning people at the stake.

Although, I have to admit, a celebrity roast of Pat Robertson would be quite funny. He probably wouldn't be cool and bring seven girlfriends, the way Hefner did to his Friar's Club roast, though.

I was annoyed. Several of the comedians made fun of the girls. Cheap shots. They were just there as dates.

Who is this "we"?

And anyway, that's not what I was talking about.

980 cliffster  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:41:08pm

yaaawwwnnn, just stayed up way to fucking late watching a great movie. chillness. That's what we need around here. I might push some buttons here and there, but that's how I am. I think you're all cool. That's not true - not all. But almost all.

981 Millicent Islam  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:43:23pm

re: #976 Bagua

You two have brought a lot of problems and hostility to this site.

Oh really? Says who?

Sigh. Such a pity not everyone agrees with you. Have you written Charles yet? I think that's a fabulous idea!
Good luck with that line of attack, dear Bagua.

982 Aye Pod  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:44:30pm

re: #972 Dark_Falcon

This time I have to agree with you. While no one is blamless here, Jimmah did start it. Jimmah, could you please apologize to Bagua for calling him a wingnut? No matter how much he may have owned the label when Brown won, you used it as a pejorative. Say you are sorry for that, and then all parties can offer more general apologies and we can put this fight to bed. Its the smart and honorable thing to do.

Hell no. That's like saying it's wrong to use the term 'extremist' perjoratively against those people who wore badges saying "Proud Extremist". Does. Not. Compute.

983 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:44:55pm

re: #922 van helsing

And spending more to fix a fucked up system will work how?

Have you read anything that anyone has said or are you only here to attack strawmen from your own imagination? I never said one word about spending more or taxing anyone more, although both happen to be part of the current unavoidable reality, I never said so...until now.

I suppose your another "starve the beast" type Republican like we have had in office for the last 20 years or so instead of a real fiscal conservative. Their answer to everything has been to "cut taxes" (because that will magically shrink the government) no matter how badly the government needed more funds. That would be fine if they had cut spending while they had control of government, but instead they have spent like a drunken sailor on shoreleave.

Both sides have been completely fiscally irresponsible, but that does not matter anymore in this argument! We are already committed to pay for the healthcare of all those who have paid into medicare for 40+ years and now expect it to be there for them. We don't have the money and we cannot fulfill our promise without more, and if costs continue to rise by more than 100% every decade as they have for the last two no amount of taxes can ever pay for those promises. It will be more money than the entire country makes!!!

Try educating yourself beyond the slogans and talking points and try actually debating the issues, we are in deep shit and we need some very bright ideas to get out of it. So far neither party has offered us anything close to a real solution.

984 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:48:17pm

re: #982 Jimmah

Hell no. That's like saying it's wrong to use the term 'extremist' perjoratively against those people who wore badges saying "Proud Extremist". Does. Not. Compute.

I don't care if it computes or not. We aren't computers, we're people using computers to talk to each other. We need to be careful not to wound each other's feelings. Your comment used wingnut as a pejorative. I ask you to please refrain from further use of the terms "wingnut" and "moonbat" to refer to other LGF regulars, even if they call themselves that. I ask that of all lizards, and I will ask it tomorrow when Charles is present.

985 van helsing  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:49:05pm

re: #978 torrentprime

So we abandon study, logic, and accounting and just go with what "sounds cheaper"? Really? We just fall back to the GOP "war on elitists" and trust our guts for cost saving? And that means of course that you're trusting the Republicans to fix it, because they never voted for Medicare, ever-I-swear, but the Democrats can't be trusted no matter what because they want to reign in costs? And in the meantime, while nothing is fixed, spiraling health care costs should continue to drain America's businesses and increase the USA debt? Good plan!

Nothing in your response addressed the huge error inn the CBO figures for Medicare.

Please provide specifics as to how the Health Care Reform act will lower the cost of delivering services.

986 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:49:33pm
987 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:50:27pm

re: #984 Dark_Falcon

I don't care if it computes or not. We aren't computers, we're people using computers to talk to each other. We need to be careful not to wound each other's feelings. Your comment used wingnut as a pejorative. I ask you to please refrain from further use of the terms "wingnut" and "moonbat" to refer to other LGF regulars, even if they call themselves that. I ask that of all lizards, and I will ask it tomorrow when Charles is present.

Great suggestion. I will be happy to comply.

988 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:50:54pm

re: #846 van helsing

Further, where in the Constitution is universal health care stated as a right?

Where in the Constitution does it talk about the right to privacy?

Some of the rights we have have been inferred from other rights.

I suppose you're ready to give them up?

989 Aye Pod  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:53:22pm

re: #977 Cheechako

Well, her husband is a retired Inverness city employee. In the same situation in the U.S., as a retired municipal employee, they would have private insurance available in retirement. Also, at her age (over 65) she would have Medicaid to assist in covering the cost. The big difference is having to wait 8 months in Scotland vs. no more than 2 weeks in the U.S.

Lucky for her. What about those who couldn't afford health insurance?

I've just had treatment for a broken arm and torn rotator cuff muscle. All attended to with no delays, no waiting whatsoever. Including extensive, ongoing physiotherapy. And no charge. The same would be given to everyone regardless of income etc.

990 Bagua  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:54:10pm

re: #981 iceweasel

BTW, thank you for that post. I see that, as usual, Charles takes a very balanced and sensible approach to things, which I why I have been such a strong supporter of his over the years and why I continue to frequent this site.

991 van helsing  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:54:56pm
I suppose your another "starve the beast" type Republican like we have had in office for the last 20 years or so instead of a real fiscal conservative.

No, actually I'm a "I read the Constitution" kind of citizen.
Medicare was part of the Great Society programs started by Lyndon Johnson.

Why is health care a federal issue?

Why?

992 [deleted]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:55:37pm
993 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:56:31pm

re: #740 Obdicut

I have a friend who literally has zero empathy or sympathy for other human beings-- you could torture someone in front of him and it would actually just bore him.

He intellectualizes his way towards ethics with something kind of akin to Kantian reasoning with emotions removed.

That's why he checked himself into a, well, private care facility with specialization in psychiatrics; he knew that if he was on his own and not under observation and (limited) treatment, he'd probably eventually kill someone for the sake of convenience or something.

Interesting guy, to say the least.

COOL.

Terrifying, as well! Someone should make a movie about him. Damn.

994 Aye Pod  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:57:11pm

re: #984 Dark_Falcon

I don't care if it computes or not. We aren't computers, we're people using computers to talk to each other. We need to be careful not to wound each other's feelings. Your comment used wingnut as a pejorative. I ask you to please refrain from further use of the terms "wingnut" and "moonbat" to refer to other LGF regulars, even if they call themselves that. I ask that of all lizards, and I will ask it tomorrow when Charles is present.

If I'd called myself a moonbat just because say - Obama won the election - that would have been stupid on my part. I would not have reacted with faux outrage if someone else later used that term on me, however pejoratively. I appreciate our attempts to encourage civility DF, but sometimes the old 'both sides are equally to blame' schtick just doesn't fly.

995 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:57:32pm

re: #987 Bagua

Great suggestion. I will be happy to comply.

Thank you. Adn now I must go to bed. Once again, I appeal for calm. And I wish everyone here a good night. I'll check back in the morning before i go to work.

996 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:58:38pm

re: #991 van helsing

No, actually I'm a "I read the Constitution" kind of citizen.
Medicare was part of the Great Society programs started by Lyndon Johnson.

Why is health care a federal issue?

Why?

Because we're not a confederacy? Because health care requires economics of massive scale to lower costs? Because we're a country with astonishing riches and yet our health care blows King Kong in an alley compared to northern Europe?

997 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 8, 2010 11:59:57pm

re: #994 Jimmah

If I'd called myself a moonbat just because say - Obama won the election - that would have been stupid on my part. I would not have reacted with faux outrage if someone else later used that term on me, however pejoratively. I appreciate our attempts to encourage civility DF, but sometimes the old 'both sides are equally to blame' schtick just doesn't fly.


Bolded and updinged for the fact that this is a conflict of ideas, not a football game. And that sometimes, one side is simply not playing the same game.

998 Van Helsing  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:00:13am

re: #988 Cato the Elder

Article IV of the Bill of Rights pretty much covers that.

999 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:01:19am
1000 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:02:39am
1001 cliffster  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:02:59am

re: #988 Cato the Elder

I don't know where peanut butter sandwich rights are in the Constitution, but I'm going to plead that section right now.

1002 Girth  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:03:05am

re: #998 Van Helsing

Article IV of the Bill of Rights pretty much covers that.

Huh? Do you mean the 4th Amendment?

1003 Van Helsing  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:03:36am

re: #996 WindUpBird

Because we're not a confederacy? Because health care requires economics of massive scale to lower costs? Because we're a country with astonishing riches and yet our health care blows King Kong in an alley compared to northern Europe?

We're not northern Europe (thank goodness).

We have a Constitution that limits the powers of the Federal Government.
What's your point?

1004 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:03:37am

re: #846 van helsing

Further, where in the Constitution is universal health care stated as a right?

Downdinged for not understanding a thing about America, its constitution, it's supreme court, or the legislative process. The number of federal programs that we take for granted that are not explicitly stated as rights in the constitution...well, I shouldn't go on. It's not worth my time.

If you feel this way, you're in full on Ron Paul territory. Which is fine if you honestly feel that way. But you're probably not going to get your extremist state's rights line echoed back at you here. This isn't hyper-libertarian country.

1005 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:04:31am
1006 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:05:34am

re: #852 ausador

Upding for honesty and emotional resonance.

1007 Van Helsing  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:05:49am

re: #1002 Girth

Huh? Do you mean the 4th Amendment?

Bill of rights

1008 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:07:55am

re: #1003 Van Helsing

We're not northern Europe (thank goodness).

We have a Constitution that limits the powers of the Federal Government.
What's your point?

Curious about your hostility towards northern Europe, but nationalism is neither here nor there.

Why does the constitution prohibit health care legislation but allow other federal programs not otherwise prohibited? Quite curious as to your response.

1009 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:08:08am

I might as well be in Northern Europe right now, except there, three days after a snowstorm, the fucking streets would be clean.

America is number one, though. Heh.

1010 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:09:14am
1011 Van Helsing  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:09:17am

re: #1004 WindUpBird

Downdinged for not understanding a thing about America, its constitution, it's supreme court, or the legislative process. The number of federal programs that we take for granted that are not explicitly stated as rights in the constitution...well, I shouldn't go on. It's not worth my time.

If you feel this way, you're in full on Ron Paul territory. Which is fine if you honestly feel that way. But you're probably not going to get your extremist state's rights line echoed back at you here. This isn't hyper-libertarian country.

So the Constitution just means whatever you want it to?
OK.
Last I heard the Supreme court had had made no ruling regarding health care.
States rights? Article 9 and 10 of the Bill of Rights? Sure, let's just pitch that stuff onto the ash heap of history.
Your choice.

1012 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:09:17am

re: #1009 Cato the Elder

I might as well be in Northern Europe right now, except there, three days after a snowstorm, the fucking streets would be clean.

America is number one, though. Heh.

Funny how this tribalism works. Even funnier when people who have never BEEN to Europe talk about how horrible it is.

1013 Cheechako  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:09:34am

re: #989 Jimmah

Lucky for her. What about those who couldn't afford health insurance?

I've just had treatment for a broken arm and torn rotator cuff muscle. All attended to with no delays, no waiting whatsoever. Including extensive, ongoing physiotherapy. And no charge. The same would be given to everyone regardless of income etc.


Everyone over 65 in the U.S. is covered by Medicaid if they want it. If you are over 65, and still employed and have an employer provided medical insurance, you don't have to sign up with Medicaid until you elect to retire and possibly loose your employer provided insurance. Medicaid is paid for by the individual based on their personal income. If you're poor there is no cost. If your incomes is over a certain level, Medicaid will cost no more than $96.00 per month.

Each individual State has Medicare programs that cover medical treatment for "poor" people. Now here's the difference. The requirements for being poor and what benefits are available vary widely in different States. There is no standardization.

For me, the most important requirement is to be able to get medical treatment when you need it. You were fortunate and able to get treatment when you needed it. Well, my cousin needed treatment months ago and was unable to get it.
Such a delay would not be tolerated in the U.S.

1014 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:10:31am
1015 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:10:49am
1016 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:11:03am

re: #1011 Van Helsing

So the Constitution just means whatever you want it to?
OK.
Last I heard the Supreme court had had made no ruling regarding health care.
States rights? Article 9 and 10 of the Bill of Rights? Sure, let's just pitch that stuff onto the ash heap of history.
Your choice.


You're not answering my question, you're just tossing Ron Paul talking points at me.

Why do current federal programs pass muster, versus HRC?

You have no answer, you're in a corner, full of bluster and impotence.

1017 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:11:34am

re: #1012 WindUpBird

Funny how this tribalism works. Even funnier when people who have never BEEN to Europe talk about how horrible it is.

Most of the real Europe-haters don't even have passports.

1018 Girth  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:13:25am

re: #1007 Van Helsing

Bill of rights

Can't remember seeing the amendments labeled that way before.

1019 Millicent Islam  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:15:08am

re: #1012 WindUpBird

Funny how this tribalism works. Even funnier when people who have never BEEN to Europe talk about how horrible it is.

They always do.
AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!

1020 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:15:17am
1021 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:16:06am
1022 Van Helsing  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:16:32am

re: #1008 WindUpBird

Curious about your hostility towards northern Europe, but nationalism is neither here nor there.

Why does the constitution prohibit health care legislation but allow other federal programs not otherwise prohibited? Quite curious as to your response.

I have a problem with anything the Federal government takes upon itself that is not defined by the Constitution.

They are not effective at doing it, they take money from the States and return it - minus admin fees - to allow the States to do the job that the States can actually do better.

Corruption and inefficiency are much easier to deal with in a local level.

It's also late in my time zone, and I'll be heading for bed in the next 10 minutes or so.

I'm not ignoring you, I'm going to sleep.

As far as Northern Europe goes, it's not hostility, I just don't need or want a government to be so involved in my life.

1023 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:16:33am
1024 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:17:15am

re: #991 van helsing

No, actually I'm a "I read the Constitution" kind of citizen.
Medicare was part of the Great Society programs started by Lyndon Johnson.

Why is health care a federal issue?

Why?

Why did Bush enact Medicare part D at an cost estimated by the CBO to be $32 Trillion to the medicare program? Because "The elderly shouldn't be forced to choose between paying for their prescriptions or buying food."

The difference is that Lyndon actually paid for his program thru a payroll tax we still pay today while Bush never got one cent to pay for his program, he just added it to the sea of red ink medicare is already facing.

Again, we face a really simple choice now, cut all government funded healthcare other than the V.A. so as to stop artificially createing the runaway growth in healthcare costs, or create national controls (nationalize) on healthcare.

We have backed ourselves into a corner and it is already past due for us to make a choice.

1025 Aye Pod  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:17:28am

re: #1012 WindUpBird

Funny how this tribalism works. Even funnier when people who have never BEEN to Europe talk about how horrible it is.

But they read the Daily Mail online. Isn't that enough? /

1026 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:18:48am
1027 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:19:37am
1028 Girth  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:21:14am

re: #1018 Girth

Can't remember seeing the amendments labeled that way before.

Hmm...guess I haven't looked at an old style copy in a while.

1029 Van Helsing  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:21:39am

re: #1024 ausador

Why did Bush enact Medicare part D at an cost estimated by the CBO to be $32 Trillion to the medicare program? Because "The elderly shouldn't be forced to choose between paying for their prescriptions or buying food."

The difference is that Lyndon actually paid for his program thru a payroll tax we still pay today while Bush never got one cent to pay for his program, he just added it to the sea of red ink medicare is already facing.

Again, we face a really simple choice now, cut all government funded healthcare other than the V.A. so as to stop artificially createing the runaway growth in healthcare costs, or create national controls (nationalize) on healthcare.

Which is a great argument to stop the Federal government from taking on jobs that Constitution does not require it to do.


We have backed ourselves into a corner and it is already past due for us to make a choice.

And if you think your payroll taxes pay for Medicare and Social Security obligations I want what you drink or smoke.

1030 Cheechako  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:22:49am

re: #1024 ausador

Why did Bush enact Medicare part D at an cost estimated by the CBO to be $32 Trillion to the medicare program? Because "The elderly shouldn't be forced to choose between paying for their prescriptions or buying food."

The difference is that Lyndon actually paid for his program thru a payroll tax we still pay today while Bush never got one cent to pay for his program, he just added it to the sea of red ink medicare is already facing.


Don't forget Bush just signed the bill after Congress passed it. Congress could have added a means for paying for the program.

Both Bush and Congress are at fault.

1031 Van Helsing  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:23:52am

re: #1030 Cheechako

Don't forget Bush just signed the bill after Congress passed it. Congress could have added a means for paying for the program.

Both Bush and Congress are at fault.

The President proposes, Congress disposes...

1032 Van Helsing  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:24:17am

G'nite.

1033 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:24:47am
1034 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:24:57am
1035 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:25:00am
1036 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:27:20am
1037 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:29:45am
1038 Cato the Elder  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:33:42am

re: #1022 Van Helsing

I have a problem with anything the Federal government takes upon itself that is not defined by the Constitution.

They are not effective at doing it, they take money from the States and return it - minus admin fees - to allow the States to do the job that the States can actually do better.

Corruption and inefficiency are much easier to deal with in a local level.

It's also late in my time zone, and I'll be heading for bed in the next 10 minutes or so.

I'm not ignoring you, I'm going to sleep.

As far as Northern Europe goes, it's not hostility, I just don't need or want a government to be so involved in my life.

Your states' rights crap won't fly. If it were up to the states, a good number would still have literacy tests aimed at you-know-who.

1039 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:34:29am
1040 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:34:37am

re: #1029 Van Helsing

And if you think your payroll taxes pay for Medicare and Social Security obligations I want what you drink or smoke.

Whats funny is that they actually did pay for them, until healthcare become glutted, and cost inefficent on the neverending trillions flowing from the government, the life expectency rose, and Congress spent all the surplus funds instead of letting them earn interest as bonds.

I don't know about you but I can personally remember when the "bean counters" decided that the government needed to raise the payroll tax for social security to 15% (7.5% from you, 7.5% from your employer) to cover the baby boomers retirement years. They got the increase, and we were assured it would be more than enough to pay the benefits.

What happened there ehh? or were you even born yet?

1041 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:35:14am
1042 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:37:52am
1043 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:41:41am
1044 Gus  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:42:20am

re: #1038 Cato the Elder

Your states' rights crap won't fly. If it were up to the states, a good number would still have literacy tests aimed at you-know-who.

I guess a lot of people forgot about the Constitution when the Patriot Act was signed or when it comes to the matter of habeas corpus.

1045 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:42:31am
1046 Cheechako  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:43:16am

re: #1043 Bagua

You might as well quit. You're never going to get the last word in the thread.

1047 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:45:07am
1048 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:45:52am

Sigh...this snipe battle is sounding more childish with every post, honestly guys (and girl) if you weren't involved you would be embarressed to read it.

Please, can't you just let it drop? Walk away, whoever does will probably come out looking like the better person in the end.

1049 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:47:51am
1050 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:48:11am
1051 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:48:46am
1052 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:48:54am
1053 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:50:59am
1054 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:51:44am
1055 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:55:05am
1056 Millicent Islam  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:55:06am

re: #1044 Gus 802

I guess a lot of people forgot about the Constitution when the Patriot Act was signed or when it comes to the matter of habeas corpus.

Oh shitloads. And many, many of them Dems, of course.

1057 Cheechako  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:58:28am

Well, I'll check in in the morning to see who gets the last word. I have a secret bet with myself.

But, one last word, this bickering and flame throwing takes all the fun out of the discussion. So, people grow up and learn to walk away when you can't say something nice!!11!!

I sure hope it doesn't get to the point where I have to check on which users are in a thread before I join the discussion.

1058 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 12:59:45am
1059 Gus  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:01:19am

re: #1056 iceweasel

Oh shitloads. And many, many of them Dems, of course.

A lot of selective criticism at play. You know, a lot of people will say that the Constitution is not a living document. All I can say that if it wasn't we wouldn't have seen the changes required as the country progressed: i.e. slavery, women's rights, civil rights, etc. If it could have worked on its own was never really tested because they didn't address those problems.

It was ratified in 1790 -- 220 years ago. Times changes and so does society. It does provide a good foundation but does not address many things we have yet to face. Ironically, the breaches we have seen to the Constitution is supported by the very same people claiming to be Constitutionalists. At least those of the pedestrian variety.

1060 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:01:58am
1061 Girth  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:04:23am

re: #1044 Gus 802

I guess a lot of people forgot about the Constitution when the Patriot Act was signed or when it comes to the matter of habeas corpus.

I can understand in principle where it comes from with the 9th and 10th amendment arguments. I still consider myself a small-l libertarian, but I used to be more serious about it, even considered joining the big-L party at one point.

As with anything though, realism tempers idealism over time. To think that we can go back to when the Commerce Clause doesn't allow Congress to pass just about anything they want to is to ignore stare decisis and legal precedent and is right up there next to those who insist that if we could just go back to the way things were in the 1950s everything would just be swell again.

I'm much more sympathetic to the argument that the government doesn't have the ability to make people buy health insurance, but even that seems a little weak to me, like just call it a tax, and sure enough, the government can raise money through taxes.

1062 Millicent Islam  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:06:05am

re: #1044 Gus 802

I guess a lot of people forgot about the Constitution when the Patriot Act was signed or when it comes to the matter of habeas corpus.

Gus, check this out. I know Glenn Greenwald is persona non grata for many (and I have to say I recently found a column from 3 or 4 years ago where I think he was a totaly asshole) but in general he keeps an eye on civil libs and a sharp one. Also, have to give him this, he is JUST as harsh a critic of the Obama admin's decisions there as he ever was of the Bush admin. Most people aren't.

[Link: www.salon.com...]

Reams Obama and Obama admin for the whole assasination w/o trial and kos commenters too for their hypocrisy. I am not even sure I agree with GG on this one but at least he's consistent-- and it is absolutely true that the Obama admin has continued or even extended Bush era policies in this area and in general the Dems haven't given a shit-- no matter how much they bitched about it under Bush.

1063 Millicent Islam  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:09:51am

re: #1059 Gus 802

A lot of selective criticism at play. You know, a lot of people will say that the Constitution is not a living document. All I can say that if it wasn't we wouldn't have seen the changes required as the country progressed: i.e. slavery, women's rights, civil rights, etc. If it could have worked on its own was never really tested because they didn't address those problems.

It was ratified in 1790 -- 220 years ago. Times changes and so does society. It does provide a good foundation but does not address many things we have yet to face. Ironically, the breaches we have seen to the Constitution is supported by the very same people claiming to be Constitutionalists. At least those of the pedestrian variety.


Obviously it's a living document and the founders even intended it to be such. Cato already made the point in re: privacy which is the basis for Roe v Wade, and also (I think) Lawrence v TX.

1064 [deleted]  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:11:33am
1065 Gus  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:12:21am

re: #1062 iceweasel

Gus, check this out. I know Glenn Greenwald is persona non grata for many (and I have to say I recently found a column from 3 or 4 years ago where I think he was a totaly asshole) but in general he keeps an eye on civil libs and a sharp one. Also, have to give him this, he is JUST as harsh a critic of the Obama admin's decisions there as he ever was of the Bush admin. Most people aren't.

[Link: www.salon.com...]

Reams Obama and Obama admin for the whole assasination w/o trial and kos commenters too for their hypocrisy. I am not even sure I agree with GG on this one but at least he's consistent-- and it is absolutely true that the Obama admin has continued or even extended Bush era policies in this area and in general the Dems haven't given a shit-- no matter how much they bitched about it under Bush.

Good points regarding how Obama is viewed in this context when compared with the very same policies that Bush endorsed but got a lot of heat from the left. People here should give you more credit for statements like those which seem to be ignored.

As it is with partisanship or loyalty this also applies with how people perceive Obama from the left. That being that he can do no wrong many times. Or perhaps a vestige of "anybody but Bush" in how they see his administration.

The legal specific of the Patriot Act or habaes corpus aren't something I dwell on. I do find the particular psycho-social partisan responses interesting.

1066 Millicent Islam  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:22:53am

re: #1065 Gus 802

Good points regarding how Obama is viewed in this context when compared with the very same policies that Bush endorsed but got a lot of heat from the left. People here should give you more credit for statements like those which seem to be ignored.

As it is with partisanship or loyalty this also applies with how people perceive Obama from the left. That being that he can do no wrong many times. Or perhaps a vestige of "anybody but Bush" in how they see his administration.

The legal specific of the Patriot Act or habaes corpus aren't something I dwell on. I do find the particular psycho-social partisan responses interesting.

I told folks from the minute I got here that civil liberties and torture were my main issues politically. That is, I have a few issues (reproductive rights would be the one I've always had) but this one is the one I'm a wonk about.
I have always stated that Obama is imo WORSE than Bush/Cheney in this regard, because they at least were always very up front about their theories about the power grab for the executive branch and what they were doing.

I voted for and worked for Obama and his campaign, but I always knew what he was about in that regard. Look, the old story is "power corrupts" and only a total moron would imagine that ANYONE would roll back the executive branch powergrab-- everyone always thinks they alone will use that excess power for good. No way was Obama going to roll that back.

But I am somewhat disgusted, if not surprised, by the many pundits et al who screamed about it under Bush but don't care when Obama does the exact same things.

1067 Millicent Islam  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:27:05am

re: #1065 Gus 802

Also, not to whine about it, but when we do (rarely) have threads here on the issue I'm sick to death of people claiming that I 'hate the military' or some such.
That's a fucking lie. I've friends and family in the military, and I don't link bullshit moonbat sites for my info-- I link the fucking DOD and CIA, and still get called a code pink wacko and worse.

1068 Gus  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:27:14am

re: #1066 iceweasel

I told folks from the minute I got here that civil liberties and torture were my main issues politically. That is, I have a few issues (reproductive rights would be the one I've always had) but this one is the one I'm a wonk about.
I have always stated that Obama is imo WORSE than Bush/Cheney in this regard, because they at least were always very up front about their theories about the power grab for the executive branch and what they were doing.

I voted for and worked for Obama and his campaign, but I always knew what he was about in that regard. Look, the old story is "power corrupts" and only a total moron would imagine that ANYONE would roll back the executive branch powergrab-- everyone always thinks they alone will use that excess power for good. No way was Obama going to roll that back.

But I am somewhat disgusted, if not surprised, by the many pundits et al who screamed about it under Bush but don't care when Obama does the exact same things.

One of the problems with Obama undertakng these tasks is that it will go under the radar of groups (NGOs) that traditionally oversee these activities. These groups are traditionally progressively oriented. You will not find any right-wing groups doing so since their main focus is on so called pro-life issues and specific country oriented movements. Now, the reason it will be ignored is because said groups sees Obama as one of them and won't criticize one of their own. At least publicly.

1069 Millicent Islam  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:31:20am

re: #1068 Gus 802

One of the problems with Obama undertakng these tasks is that it will go under the radar of groups (NGOs) that traditionally oversee these activities. These groups are traditionally progressively oriented. You will not find any right-wing groups doing so since their main focus is on so called pro-life issues and specific country oriented movements. Now, the reason it will be ignored is because said groups sees Obama as one of them and won't criticize one of their own. At least publicly.

Obama has done worse than that, my friend. He shuttered the CIA 'black sites', but it doesnt matter because JSOC runs them now.

Info here, and in spinoffs and comments.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

1070 Gus  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:36:02am

re: #1067 iceweasel

Also, not to whine about it, but when we do (rarely) have threads here on the issue I'm sick to death of people claiming that I 'hate the military' or some such.
That's a fucking lie. I've friends and family in the military, and I don't link bullshit moonbat sites for my info-- I link the fucking DOD and CIA, and still get called a code pink wacko and worse.

I never saw the Code Pink angle from you. You've always seemed rather grounded when we first exchanged some words regarding health care reform.

I'm troubles by the idea that we can't criticize the military in any matter without being cast as being anti-military. Like any arm of the government they're open to criticism and as we know they are far from perfect.

Does criticizing them from time to time make one anti-military? I say no. Some of the biggest critics are former service members and war veterans.

1071 Millicent Islam  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:42:03am

re: #1070 Gus 802


Does criticizing them from time to time make one anti-military? I say no. Some of the biggest critics are former service members and war veterans.

Yes. And McCain is instructive in this regard-- I've got video footage of him saying he'd be cool with repealing DADT if that's what the military wanted.
Now that the military has testified to that, McCain has changed his tune.

And it's bullshit anyway-- one can be opposed to the Iraq War (the decision to go in) without thereby being anti-military, and one can still criticise the military without being some Code Pink freak or moonbat.
Don't get me started on Scott Beachamp. I know LGF was anti-beauchamp, and I know Throbert was the TNR staffer that leaked his real name. But he was right.

1072 Millicent Islam  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:43:30am

re: #1071 iceweasel

But he was right.

Scott beauchamp was right, that is.

1073 bagua  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:43:54am

re: #1064 Jimmah

Piss off. You won't be addressed again.

Really? You mean you won't be jumping into threads to attack me as 'wingnut' out of the blue? That's good news, though I doubt your sincerity.

For my part I'm happy to leave you be as I'm responding to your insults, not initiating them myself. I participate here for the good conversation, not this nasty stuff you two are partial to.

You are both capable of much better behaviour, but that is in your control, not mine.

1074 Millicent Islam  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:49:50am

Gus-- I don't know how well the Beauchamp issue was covered here. But check this out from this November:

[Link: www.balloon-juice.com...]

1075 Gus  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:50:25am

re: #1071 iceweasel

Yes. And McCain is instructive in this regard-- I've got video footage of him saying he'd be cool with repealing DADT if that's what the military wanted.
Now that the military has testified to that, McCain has changed his tune.

And it's bullshit anyway-- one can be opposed to the Iraq War (the decision to go in) without thereby being anti-military, and one can still criticise the military without being some Code Pink freak or moonbat.
Don't get me started on Scott Beachamp. I know LGF was anti-beauchamp, and I know Throbert was the TNR staffer that leaked his real name. But he was right.

Ugh. Have you seen the new McCain? It's hard to watch. He's taken a hard right turn and it just makes my head spin because I know deep down that McCain is rather moderate. But, being a politician he sacrifices his principles for political expediency. I still think he's the best alternative for anyone to vote on the GOP ticket in Arizona.

I forgot about Beauchamp. I did have a little vendetta going about Jon Soltz for a time in 2008. In many ways it's about respecting someones ability to express their opinions even if we find ourselves opposed to it. I've learned to temper myself in 2009 with the help of LGF (Charles) and of course the president.

It's not popular to say but I knew Colin Powell was lying (for the most part) when he went in front of the United Nation before the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Yet, I still respect Colin Powell. We all make mistakes in the end.

1076 Aye Pod  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:50:47am

re: #1072 iceweasel

Scott beauchamp was right, that is.

Whew!re: #1072 iceweasel

Scott beauchamp was right, that is.

He was, and it was very much in the interests - the true interests - of the military to know about it. An army of occupation, trying to win hearts and minds etc, needs to know, and to be able to know, about any sociopaths and psychos it has in it's ranks.

1077 Gus  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:54:20am

re: #1071 iceweasel

Yes. And McCain is instructive in this regard-- I've got video footage of him saying he'd be cool with repealing DADT if that's what the military wanted.
Now that the military has testified to that, McCain has changed his tune.

And it's bullshit anyway-- one can be opposed to the Iraq War (the decision to go in) without thereby being anti-military, and one can still criticise the military without being some Code Pink freak or moonbat.
Don't get me started on Scott Beachamp. I know LGF was anti-beauchamp, and I know Throbert was the TNR staffer that leaked his real name. But he was right.

But yes, he did say he would support the repeal of DADT. He's also stated in the past that he would not support a Constitutional amendment defining marriage as being between a man an a woman.

1078 Kruk  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 1:58:39am

re: #944 WindUpBird

I will happily volunteer to be called "moon-nuts"

That sounds like an extremely painfull medical condition...

1079 Millicent Islam  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:00:34am

re: #1075 Gus 802

Ugh. Have you seen the new McCain? It's hard to watch. He's taken a hard right turn and it just makes my head spin because I know deep down that McCain is rather moderate. But, being a politician he sacrifices his principles for political expediency. I still think he's the best alternative for anyone to vote on the GOP ticket in Arizona.

I forgot about Beauchamp. I did have a little vendetta going about Jon Soltz for a time in 2008. In many ways it's about respecting someones ability to express their opinions even if we find ourselves opposed to it. I've learned to temper myself in 2009 with the help of LGF (Charles) and of course the president.

It's not popular to say but I knew Colin Powell was lying (for the most part) when he went in front of the United Nation before the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Yet, I still respect Colin Powell. We all make mistakes in the end.

I respect Powell in part because I believe he was lied to. He did the best he could.

I don't remember Soltz. Who he?

As for McCain-- Indeed I have seen the recent footage and I'm up to speed on everything he's doing.
I have to tell you, I used to really like McCain. I wanted him to win the 2000 nom.
I think he lost the nom due to Rove dirty tricks (the push polling in SC about his alleged 'illegitimate black daughter').
I think McCain was a straightup guy who learned all the wrong lessons from that defeat, ran a bad campaign in 08, picked a horrendous running mate (for deeply cynical reasons)-- and now he's a bitter, angry old man who feels cheated. And he WAS cheated-- in 2000, by his own side. And again in 2008, when they forced him basically to pander to the wingnut base.
He deserved better, and he was capable of better.
Now, he's not the same person.
It makes me sad, honestly. I consider him to be someone who has been destroyed by the process.

1080 Gus  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:00:56am

re: #1076 Jimmah

He was, and it was very much in the interests - the true interests - of the military to know about it. An army of occupation, trying to win hearts and minds etc, needs to know, and to be able to know, about any sociopaths and psychos it has in it's ranks.

Like with any large organization you will always find a representation of the general population. That means you will find sociopaths in the military as you would with IBM for example. Part of the task is to be willing to acknowledge the presence and then do something about it on a case by case basis. Putting our heads in the sand wouldn't accomplish a thing and in fact work counter to our values.

1081 Aye Pod  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:07:04am

re: #1080 Gus 802

Like with any large organization you will always find a representation of the general population. That means you will find sociopaths in the military as you would with IBM for example. Part of the task is to be willing to acknowledge the presence and then do something about it on a case by case basis. Putting our heads in the sand wouldn't accomplish a thing and in fact work counter to our values.

Exactly.

Ok folks - Bed time for me - have a good one :)

1082 Gus  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:07:11am

re: #1079 iceweasel

I respect Powell in part because I believe he was lied to. He did the best he could.

I don't remember Soltz. Who he?

As for McCain-- Indeed I have seen the recent footage and I'm up to speed on everything he's doing.
I have to tell you, I used to really like McCain. I wanted him to win the 2000 nom.
I think he lost the nom due to Rove dirty tricks (the push polling in SC about his alleged 'illegitimate black daughter').
I think McCain was a straightup guy who learned all the wrong lessons from that defeat, ran a bad campaign in 08, picked a horrendous running mate (for deeply cynical reasons)-- and now he's a bitter, angry old man who feels cheated. And he WAS cheated-- in 2000, by his own side. And again in 2008, when they forced him basically to pander to the wingnut base.
He deserved better, and he was capable of better.
Now, he's not the same person.
It makes me sad, honestly. I consider him to be someone who has been destroyed by the process.

As it turns out that "illegitimate black daughter" was his adopted daughter from India. What Rove and the GOP did to McCain in South Carolina in 2000 was a most despicable act. That's what led to that hugging moment later between Bush and McCain where McCain essentially pardoned Bush for those acted on his behalf. How we can keep a straight face regarding Rove after that is beyond me.

1083 Gus  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:07:40am

re: #1081 Jimmah

Exactly.

Ok folks - Bed time for me - have a good one :)

Later Jimmah.

1084 Gus  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:09:54am

re: #1072 iceweasel

Scott beauchamp was right, that is.

Throbert was a creep.

1085 Millicent Islam  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:11:13am

re: #1080 Gus 802

Like with any large organization you will always find a representation of the general population. That means you will find sociopaths in the military as you would with IBM for example. Part of the task is to be willing to acknowledge the presence and then do something about it on a case by case basis. Putting our heads in the sand wouldn't accomplish a thing and in fact work counter to our values.

But just look at the ongoing hysteria, even here, even now, over the DHS report, which made the wholly uncontroverisal point that returning vets are especially are likely to be targetted by extremist groups, and that one vet is potentially FAR more dangerous than 1000 basement boyz.
This surely should not be controversial, hello, timothy mcveigh?

That's not even mentioning the PTSD many vets are suffering, and our military's total failure to treat them. Or the fact (which I have documented here before, with links to Army reports and FBI reports) that white supremacists have been, for years, getting their members to join up so they can get training for the 'race war' they envision.
None of this is a "Military BAD!" position. The freaking military itself documents it as a problem, and it isn't in any way a criticism about the vast majority of our troops anyway.

It is very fucked up that one can't point this out without being labelled a hater of the military.

1086 Millicent Islam  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:13:16am

re: #1082 Gus 802

As it turns out that "illegitimate black daughter" was his adopted daughter from India. What Rove and the GOP did to McCain in South Carolina in 2000 was a most despicable act. That's what led to that hugging moment later between Bush and McCain where McCain essentially pardoned Bush for those acted on his behalf. How we can keep a straight face regarding Rove after that is beyond me.

Yeah. Despicible. Bangladesh, I think?
It was an act of purest kindness and humanity used to smear him.

1087 Gus  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:18:49am

re: #1085 iceweasel

But just look at the ongoing hysteria, even here, even now, over the DHS report, which made the wholly uncontroverisal point that returning vets are especially are likely to be targetted by extremist groups, and that one vet is potentially FAR more dangerous than 1000 basement boyz.
This surely should not be controversial, hello, timothy mcveigh?

That's not even mentioning the PTSD many vets are suffering, and our military's total failure to treat them. Or the fact (which I have documented here before, with links to Army reports and FBI reports) that white supremacists have been, for years, getting their members to join up so they can get training for the 'race war' they envision.
None of this is a "Military BAD!" position. The freaking military itself documents it as a problem, and it isn't in any way a criticism about the vast majority of our troops anyway.

It is very fucked up that one can't point this out without being labelled a hater of the military.

The DoD does acknowledge it. There's also a chain of command. There's a big difference between how the military conducts itself and how all of the arm chair generals would like to think they conduct themselves or should conduct themselves. Not to pull rank here but those bloggers that say to the contrary tend to be NCOs with non-leadership experience except on the platoon level. You won't ever find any former COs or XOs in blogs commenting otherwise since they don't engage in speculation like the lower ranked mil-bloggers.

1088 Kruk  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:22:28am

re: #977 Cheechako

Well, her husband is a retired Inverness city employee. In the same situation in the U.S., as a retired municipal employee, they would have private insurance available in retirement. Also, at her age (over 65) she would have Medicaid to assist in covering the cost. The big difference is having to wait 8 months in Scotland vs. no more than 2 weeks in the U.S.

Is this private insurance subsidised by the muncipal government? If so, she would be covered by two forms of *Government* funded healthcare. The time difference in the two countries would therefore argue that the US actually does Government funded healthcare better than other countries, and that the problems found in other countries wouldn't in fact apply to the US. :) (Okay, I kid, but only a little.)

Also, if the difference in wait times due to health care *funding* or provision?Even single payer (let alone the public option) doesn't envision the kind of system where the government both funds and provides healthcare as in the NHS.

PS: The over 65s are typically covered by Medicare, not Medicaid. (Though one can be dual eligible.)

1089 Kruk  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 2:36:23am

re: #1025 Jimmah

But they read the Daily Mail online. Isn't that enough? /

Heh. I've lived in the UK for two of the best years of my life, made some lifelong friends, and I still read the Daily Mail online. It's one of life's guilty pleasures.

1090 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 5:04:51am

re: #1071 iceweasel

Scott Beauchamp was a lying chump.

1091 Millicent Islam  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 9:37:35am

re: #1090 RogueOne

Scott Beauchamp was a lying chump.

[Link: www.balloon-juice.com...]

1092 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 9:53:52am

re: #1086 iceweasel

Yeah. Despicible. Bangladesh, I think?
It was an act of purest kindness and humanity used to smear him.

Yes, Bagladeshi, IIRC. Bridget is the child's name, she's college age now.

1093 wrenchwench  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:02:30am
1094 Millicent Islam  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:03:57am

re: #1092 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes, Bagladeshi, IIRC. Bridget is the child's name, she's college age now.

That's right; I remember now. It was just despicable what Rove et al did to McCain over that.

1095 doubter4444  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:38:30am

re: #1004 WindUpBird

Downdinged for not understanding a thing about America, its constitution, it's supreme court, or the legislative process. The number of federal programs that we take for granted that are not explicitly stated as rights in the constitution...well, I shouldn't go on. It's not worth my time.

If you feel this way, you're in full on Ron Paul territory. Which is fine if you honestly feel that way. But you're probably not going to get your extremist state's rights line echoed back at you here. This isn't hyper-libertarian country.

Up ding for a very nice take down.

1096 doubter4444  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:39:33am

re: #1090 RogueOne

Scott Beauchamp was a lying chump.

No you are wrong, very very wrong on that.

1097 doubter4444  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 10:47:07am

re: #1040 ausador

Whats funny is that they actually did pay for them, until healthcare become glutted, and cost inefficent on the neverending trillions flowing from the government, the life expectency rose, and Congress spent all the surplus funds instead of letting them earn interest as bonds.

I don't know about you but I can personally remember when the "bean counters" decided that the government needed to raise the payroll tax for social security to 15% (7.5% from you, 7.5% from your employer) to cover the baby boomers retirement years. They got the increase, and we were assured it would be more than enough to pay the benefits.

What happened there ehh? or were you even born yet?

Yep. I do to.
Now here we are.
I agree, we need to make hard decisions, and NO ONE will do it, and most just spew stupid talking points without knowing what the hell they mean.

1098 Happy4LA  Tue, Feb 9, 2010 5:52:16pm

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