Glenn Beck Exposes Truther ‘Tea Party’ Candidate, Hypes Theocratic Fanatic

Politics • Views: 6,168

Glenn Beck deserves some credit today for exposing Texas gubernatorial candidate Debra Medina as a 9/11 Truther.

Medina was known as the “tea party candidate,” which shouldn’t surprise anyone who’s been following the recent bad craziness at tea party events. It’s not mentioned in this article, but she has also appeared on the Alex Jones conspiracy show, worked for Ron Paul’s Campaign for Liberty, and even placed a banner advertisement on the neo-Nazi Stormfront website.

Radio host Glenn Beck, saying he was responding to e-mails he got from listeners, asked Medina in a national interview this morning whether she believed the U.S. government was involved in the September 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center.

“I don’t have all of the evidence there Glenn so I’m not in a place, I have not been out publicly questioning that,” Medina said. “I think some very good questions have been raised in that regard, there are some very good arguments and I think the American people have not seen all the evidence there, so I have not taken a position on that.” …

After the interview, Beck, who holds sway with many Republican primary voters, said, “I think I can write her off the list.”

Beck, who has been critical of Gov. Rick Perry and U.S. Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison, added, “Let me take another look at Kay Bailey Hutchison if I have to. Rick, I think you and I could French kiss right now.”

At the same time as he exposes Medina (who was running a distant third and had no real chance of winning the governorship), however, Glenn Beck is heavily promoting David Barton and Wallbuilders, one of the most extreme theocratic groups currently operating in the US. Beck touts Barton as an “expert” on the founding of the United States; but in reality Barton is notorious for pushing revisionist history aimed at undermining the separation of church and state. Here’s an LGF search for our posts about David Barton.

More information about Barton’s past activities:

In 1991 Barton addressed the Rocky Mountain Bible Retreat of Pastor Pete Peters’ Scriptures for America, a group that espouses the racist “Christian Identity” theology. Advocates of this bizarre dogma insist that white Anglo-Saxons are the “true” chosen people of the Bible and charge that today’s Jews are usurpers. Aside from being a virulent anti-Semite, Peters has advocated the death penalty for homosexuals. According to the Anti-Defamation League, other speakers at the event included white supremacist leader and 1992 presidential candidate James “Bo” Gritz, a leader of the radical and increasingly violent militia movement, and Malcolm Ross, a Holocaust denier from Canada. In November of that same year, Barton spoke at Kingdom Covenant College in Grants Pass, Oregon, another “Christian Identity” front group with ties to Peters.

Asked to explain these actions, Barton’s reply amounted to a not very creative “I didn’t know they were Nazis” dodge. In a July 1993 letter, Barton assistant Kit Marshall wrote, “At the time we were contacted by Pete Peters, we had absolutely no idea that he was ‘part of the Nazi movement.’ He contacted us for David to speak for Scriptures for America. The title is quite innocuous. In all the conversations that I personally had with Pete Peters, never once was there a hint that they were part of a Nazi movement. I would also like to point out that simply because David Barton gives a presentation to a group of people does not mean that he endorses all their beliefs.” An excuse like that might have washed one time, but it stretches the bounds of credulity to accept that Barton was twice duped by innocuous-sounding extremist organizations.

That’s Glenn Beck’s “historical expert” — a fundamentalist fanatic working to subvert the Establishment Clause, with ties to white supremacists.

Here’s another article on Barton and his theocratic front group, the National Council On Bible Curriculum In Public Schools: Historical Revisionism in the NCBCPS Curriculum.

UPDATE at 2/11/10 11:10:04 am:

Debra Medina says she isn’t a Truther.

I was asked a question on the Glenn Beck show today regarding my thoughts on the so-called 9/11 truth movement. I have never been involved with the 9/11 truth movement, and there is no doubt in my mind that Muslim terrorists flew planes into those buildings on 9/11. I have not seen any evidence nor have I ever believed that our government was involved or directed those individuals in any way. No one can deny that the events on 9/11 were a tragedy for all Americans and especially those families who lost loved ones.

The question surprised me because it’s not relevant to this race or the issues facing Texans. This campaign has always been about private property rights and state sovereignty. It is focused on the issues facing Texans. It is not a vehicle for the 9-11 truth movement or any other group.

Jump to bottom

708 comments
1 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:00:53am

Whackiness, but not in terms of candidates he could support.

It's a start, I suppose.

2 Baier  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:01:01am

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

3 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:01:27am

"Too crazy for Glenn Beck" is a pretty low hurtle to clear, and yet somehow people still manage to limbo under it...

4 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:01:41am

Ooh! I wonder if the Beckist mobs from the town halls and the tea parties will turn on their one-time lord and master. This could get very interesting.

5 Kragar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:02:01am

"Sure, they're a group of anti-semitic white supremacists, but Nazis, thats crossing the line."

6 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:04:28am

This does not surprise me.

I know this guy, who is a hardline Paulian and he has been talking about Medina on and on.

It's also worth mentioning that this guy associates with the 9/11 Truth Movement.

7 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:05:34am

Kind of a shame. Medina supports abolishing property taxes and is very pro-gun. I was starting to like her. Oh well.

8 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:06:08am

Debra Medina has some radical ideas about eliminating property taxes and replacing the lost revenue with an increase in sales taxes. She may not understand that this will shift all government spending decisions away from localities, up to the state level. Very inefficient, and less democratic.

9 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:06:51am

If I was the Democratic candidate for Governor in Texas, I'd be using "Don't Mess with Texas" as part of my campaign, and then point to the troofers, nirthers, and theocrats on the opposite side as examples of the stupidity (and yes, I'd use that word) I was trying to protect the state against.

10 Girth  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:06:54am

It makes me sad that anyone listens to anything this ass-clown has to say in the first place.

11 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:07:07am

What I hate about Holocaust deniers is that they obviously are happy it happened, or, even if they somehow manage to fool themselves even that far, they still wish all us Jews would just go away.

It's dishonesty piled on dishonesty.

12 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:08:14am

re: #8 jaunte

Debra Medina has some radical ideas about eliminating property taxes and replacing the lost revenue with an increase in sales taxes. She may not understand that this will shift all government spending decisions away from localities, up to the state level. Very inefficient, and less democratic.

That's a good point. But I still consider property taxes a form of slavery. Even if you own your property, the government can seize it if you don't pay a tax. That is NOT what I consider to be freedom or property rights.

Local governments can just levy sales taxes to fund their programs.

13 DaddyG  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:08:48am

I'm taking odds on the word relevant showing up on this thread without the use of not, non or any other negative prefix.

14 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:10:12am

re: #13 DaddyG

I'm taking odds on the word relevant showing up on this thread without the use of not, non or any other negative prefix.

That would only be relevant if it were possible.

15 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:10:17am

Debra Medina says she isn't a Truther.

I was asked a question on the Glenn Beck show today regarding my thoughts on the so-called 9/11 truth movement. I have never been involved with the 9/11 truth movement, and there is no doubt in my mind that Muslim terrorists flew planes into those buildings on 9/11. I have not seen any evidence nor have I ever believed that our government was involved or directed those individuals in any way. No one can deny that the events on 9/11 were a tragedy for all Americans and especially those families who lost loved ones.

The question surprised me because it's not relevant to this race or the issues facing Texans. This campaign has always been about private property rights and state sovereignty. It is focused on the issues facing Texans. It is not a vehicle for the 9-11 truth movement or any other group.

16 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:10:35am

Rick Perry is a creationist statist.

Hutchinson is notorious for abusing her female staff members.

Now, we have Medina a crazy 9/11 Truther.

Ugh.

17 soap_man  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:10:42am

re: #12 Mosh

That's a good point. But I still consider property taxes a form of slavery. Even if you own your property, the government can seize it if you don't pay a tax. That is NOT what I consider to be freedom or property rights.

Local governments can just levy sales taxes to fund their programs.

School districts get almost all of their funding from property taxes. How would you replace that? It would have to be a pretty hefty sales tax increase....

18 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:11:28am

re: #15 Charles

Debra Medina says she isn't a Truther.

Too late...she's been labeled. She'd might as well admit it...even if it isn't true.

19 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:11:41am

re: #16 Mosh

Rick Perry is a creationist statist.

Hutchinson is notorious for abusing her female staff members.

Now, we have Medina a crazy 9/11 Truther.

Ugh.

Speaking of creationists. Here's an image I put together representing the SRLC event.

Image: srlccreationist.jpg

20 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:11:51am

re: #15 Charles

Should we give her the benefit of the doubt?

21 tradewind  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:12:20am

ZOMG!
Beck is on the road to redemption?!?/
Sit tight, he'll be 'sploding heads again before nightfall.

22 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:13:11am

re: #15 Charles

All right, now, I'm officially confused. Is she a lying truther, or what?

Do we believe her or Beck, or our lying eyes, or what?

23 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:14:07am

re: #17 soap_man

Or the state government could fund the school districts. I'm not an expert. I just know that property taxes are a form of slavery. If I pay my mortgage, I don't want the government to be able to seize my property.

24 tradewind  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:14:13am

re: #3 jamesfirecat

The imagery in that mixed metaphor hurts my head.//
Jumping a hurtle[sic], yet slithering under a limbo stick.
Okay then.

25 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:14:21am

re: #19 Gus 802

Speaking of creationists. Here's an image I put together representing the SRLC event.

[Link: img211.imageshack.us...]

Creationists will think that's a good thing. Bigots don't care. Anti-choicers don't care. Homophobes don't care. Anti-immigration people don't care. In other words, the base doesn't care.

26 Girth  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:14:29am
“I don’t have all of the evidence there Glenn so I’m not in a place, I have not been out publicly questioning that,” Medina said. “I think some very good questions have been raised in that regard, there are some very good arguments and I think the American people have not seen all the evidence there, so I have not taken a position on that.” …

vs.

I have never been involved with the 9/11 truth movement, and there is no doubt in my mind that Muslim terrorists flew planes into those buildings on 9/11. I have not seen any evidence nor have I ever believed that our government was involved or directed those individuals in any way.

hmm....

27 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:14:33am

re: #22 Guanxi88

All right, now, I'm officially confused. Is she a lying truther, or what?

Do we believe her or Beck, or our lying eyes, or what?

My head hurts.

28 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:16:03am

re: #25 darthstar

Creationists will think that's a good thing. Bigots don't care. Anti-choicers don't care. Homophobes don't care. Anti-immigration people don't care. In other words, the base doesn't care.

Nah, I didn't think they would care either. In fact, they like. Mongo like creationists.

29 Quilly Mammoth  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:16:10am

This is why research is so important. Bo Gritz ran on the "Populist Party" ticket with David Duke in 1988. Meanwhile he had tied to the Christic Institute and during the First Gulf War was constantly on Pacifica. Neithre Christic nor Pacifica seemed to know the man was a CI supporter until a report in 1992 by PART.

Then he played back to the Right in the Shiavo case.

People like Gritz are deft at fooling folks about about their real beliefs.

30 subsailor68  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:16:30am

re: #7 Mosh

Kind of a shame. Medina supports abolishing property taxes and is very pro-gun. I was starting to like her. Oh well.

Hi Mosh. Is it realistic do you think, to replace a property tax revenue stream with a sales tax-based approach? I only ask, because the great majority of my property tax goes to the school district - and it's a chunk of change.

If sales tax was applied to all goods and products - and even services - wouldn't it be pretty regressive? And, if products that were needed by poorer folks (food, etc.) would the increase in costs for those goods that were taxed result in a decrease in the sale of those goods and a resultant decrease in tax revenue. (I'm thinking of Ted Kennedy's "luxury tax" on yachts that tanked sales in that industry while it was in place.)

I'm asking, because I'm really of two minds on the issue. As a conservative, I'm not really happy with knowing I'm not really ever going to "own" my home as long as property taxes are in place.

Any thoughts on the issue would be greatly appreciated!

31 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:16:35am

re: #19 Gus 802

Speaking of creationists. Here's an image I put together representing the SRLC event.

[Link: img211.imageshack.us...]

The question is, is it true or not?

32 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:17:09am

re: #31 jamesfirecat

The question is, is it true or not?

As far as I know, yes.

33 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:18:26am

re: #32 Gus 802

As far as I know, yes.

Well then, commence shuddering!

34 researchok  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:18:31am

re: #15 Charles

Debra Medina says she isn't a Truther.

It never fails to amaze me how some fringe politicians only censor themselves only when 'busted'- and always portray themselves as slighted or misunderstood in the process.

35 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:20:16am

Now, we know Medina was on Alex Jones a while ago. So far as I can tell, they didn't get into 9/11 trutherism, but I know she's made noises about the globalists and such.

An odd duck.

Faced with Perry versus Hutchinson, I guess I'll go with Perry - he's always been forthrightly low in his politics, obvious in his corruption, and shameless in his grafting.

36 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:20:20am

re: #30 subsailor68

Very well-said.

37 Girth  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:20:49am

re: #19 Gus 802

Speaking of creationists. Here's an image I put together representing the SRLC event.

[Link: img211.imageshack.us...]

Does a more smug shit-eating grin exist than that of Sean Hannity?

I think not.

38 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:21:04am

re: #30 subsailor68

I prefer to take 'the devil you know' approach, and let some other polity experiment with the pure sales tax approach to see what the unforeseen consequences are.

39 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:21:25am

re: #30 subsailor68

Hi Mosh. Is it realistic do you think, to replace a property tax revenue stream with a sales tax-based approach? I only ask, because the great majority of my property tax goes to the school district - and it's a chunk of change.

If sales tax was applied to all goods and products - and even services - wouldn't it be pretty regressive? And, if products that were needed by poorer folks (food, etc.) would the increase in costs for those goods that were taxed result in a decrease in the sale of those goods and a resultant decrease in tax revenue. (I'm thinking of Ted Kennedy's "luxury tax" on yachts that tanked sales in that industry while it was in place.)

I'm asking, because I'm really of two minds on the issue. As a conservative, I'm not really happy with knowing I'm not really ever going to "own" my home as long as property taxes are in place.

Any thoughts on the issue would be greatly appreciated!

Sounds like your inside my head. A sales tax's regressiveness can be eliminated if the government covers the tax to pay for the basic necessities of life (food, shelter, clothing, etc) calculated by inflationary rates.

A FairTax-esque style tax could be used. Or local governments could levy an income tax. Or the state government could collect taxes and distribute the necessary funding to the local governments in order to fund schools.

A state could also try running the school system but I'm not sure if that would work.

Please give me your thoughts.

40 shiplord kirel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:21:47am
The question surprised me because it’s not relevant to this race or the issues facing Texans.

Wrong. It is relevant to this race because at least some Texas voters do not want a conspiracy believing crazy person in elective office.

41 Quilly Mammoth  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:22:01am

re: #15 Charles

Her statement doesn't jive with what the transcript says from BecK

GLENN: Right. Here's then let me be more frank and ask you the question: Do you believe the government was any way involved with the bringing down of the World Trade Centers on 9/11?

MEDINA: I don't, I don't have all of the evidence there, Glenn. So I don't I'm not in a place, I have not been out publicly questioning that. I think some very good questions have been raised in that regard. There are some very good arguments, and I think the American people have not seen all of the evidence there. So I've not taken a position on that.

GLENN: I think the people of America might think that might be a yes.

MEDINA: Well

GLENN: Do you have advisors, do you have advisor

MEDINA: I'm not going to take a position.

GLENN: That's fine.

MEDINA: These questions have been raised and they are not answered.

People should read teh whole interview.

42 Ojoe  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:23:13am

Thank you for exposing the closet theocrats Charles.

I would last about 2 weeks under a theocracy.

43 Bubblehead II  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:23:48am

re: #35 Guanxi88

"Faced with Perry versus Hutchinson, I guess I'll go with Perry - he's always been forthrightly low in his politics, obvious in his corruption, and shameless in his grafting."

/ An honest politician?

44 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:24:05am

re: #39 Mosh

Have you seen this on the "Fair" Tax?

[Link: www.factcheck.org...]

The main conclusion of which is that the Fair Tax moves the tax burden more to the middle class, away from the very wealthy and the very poor?

45 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:24:34am

re: #41 Quilly Mammoth

She dodged the question. It's still irrelevant. That statist, creationist Rick Perry will probably win in the runoff. Under Texas law you need 50% or else it goes into a runoff. Hutchinson has no chance.

46 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:24:52am

re: #39 Mosh

Sounds like your inside my head. A sales tax's regressiveness can be eliminated if the government covers the tax to pay for the basic necessities of life (food, shelter, clothing, etc) calculated by inflationary rates.

A FairTax-esque style tax could be used. Or local governments could levy an income tax. Or the state government could collect taxes and distribute the necessary funding to the local governments in order to fund schools.

A state could also try running the school system but I'm not sure if that would work.

Please give me your thoughts.

The problem I have with that is that if we let states run their own school systems, wouldn't this naturally lead to an inequality between the levels of public education you get in each state?

I'm not saying something like that doesn't exist now (I know it varies from school to school) but if the problem gets worse wouldn't that lead to people from certain states needing to take extra courses before they could get jobs in other states?

That said with Texas evidently pushing to question Darwin every way they can, its not like we aren't already seeing the degree of education you get per state shifting....

Still I think having a federal standard for education is probably a good idea....

47 Girth  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:24:56am

re: #42 Ojoe

Thank you for exposing the closet theocrats Charles.

I would last about 2 weeks under a theocracy.

It would be my goal in life to corrupt as many as I could before they got me.

48 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:24:56am

re: #41 Quilly Mammoth

Her statement doesn't jive with what the transcript says from BecK

People should read teh whole interview.

"I'm not a truther I'm just askin' questions!111!!11" -- Debra Medina

//

49 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:25:21am

re: #44 Obdicut

I have read that. Read "FairTax: Answering the Critics". That should answer all your questions.

50 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:25:35am
51 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:25:43am

re: #48 Gus 802

"I'm not a truther I'm just askin' questions!111!!11" -- Debra Medina

//

Isn't that the same thing Sarah Palin said about the Nirther's a while back "It's a reasonable/fair question" or something like that?

52 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:25:47am

re: #8 jaunte

Debra Medina has some radical ideas about eliminating property taxes and replacing the lost revenue with an increase in sales taxes. She may not understand that this will shift all government spending decisions away from localities, up to the state level. Very inefficient, and less democratic.

Sales tax="Tax the poor"

53 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:26:27am

re: #51 jamesfirecat

Isn't that the same thing Sarah Palin said about the Nirther's a while back "It's a reasonable/fair question" or something like that?

I think so. Would have to check.

54 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:27:00am

re: #52 Alouette

There's Anatole France's 'majestic equality' again.

55 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:27:58am

Wow - we got to 51 comments without mentioning Palin. A new record!

56 subsailor68  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:28:06am

re: #39 Mosh

Sounds like your inside my head. A sales tax's regressiveness can be eliminated if the government covers the tax to pay for the basic necessities of life (food, shelter, clothing, etc) calculated by inflationary rates.

A FairTax-esque style tax could be used. Or local governments could levy an income tax. Or the state government could collect taxes and distribute the necessary funding to the local governments in order to fund schools.

A state could also try running the school system but I'm not sure if that would work.

Please give me your thoughts.

Oh you and I are definitely on the same page wrt property taxes! I guess what I really need to do is get schooled on the advantages and disadvantages of some concepts (like flat-tax, fair tax, etc.).

Hey, I moved to Texas years ago, from California, and I can tell ya' we can be a bit loopy from time to time out here, but we're pretty serious about property rights and - like everyone in every other state - pretty disgusted with taxing authorities who view folks' property as only belonging to them as long as the authorities say so.

57 Girth  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:28:16am

re: #51 jamesfirecat

Isn't that the same thing Sarah Palin said about the Nirther's a while back "It's a reasonable/fair question" or something like that?

It's the look the other way while fanning the flames behind your back tactic that some seem to think can work for them politically.

58 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:28:23am

re: #51 jamesfirecat

Isn't that the same thing Sarah Palin said about the Nirther's a while back "It's a reasonable/fair question" or something like that?

Here it is:

Palin: Obama birth certificate 'a fair question'

"Would you make the birth certificate an issue if you ran?" she was asked (around 9 minutes into the video above).

"I think the public rightfully is still making it an issue. I don't have a problem with that. I don't know if I would have to bother to make it an issue, because I think that members of the electorate still want answers," she replied.

"Do you think it's a fair question to be looking at?" Humphries persisted.

"I think it's a fair question, just like I think past association and past voting records -- all of that is fair game," Palin said. "The McCain-Palin campaign didn't do a good enough job in that area."

59 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:29:00am

re: #49 Mosh

I have read that, and in fact FactCheck responds. They did not, in that response, even actually contest the idea that the burden would shift away from the very rich and to the middle class. To me, that book was highly dishonest in its presentation of figures, to a degree that made me even more cynical about the 'Fair' Tax. It reminds me of the even more idiotically regressive tax ideas of Dick Armey.

Are you disputing that the Fair Tax shifts the tax burden to the middle class, and if so, can you explain why you dispute it?

60 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:29:10am

I'm voting for Beck/Medina 2012!

We all know that the Fed is controlled by bankers, 9/11 was an inside job, Obama is a Kenyan Communist, and the whole world is controlled by Alluminati and the Rothschilds. ////

61 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:29:21am

re: #56 subsailor68

Oh you and I are definitely on the same page wrt property taxes! I guess what I really need to do is get schooled on the advantages and disadvantages of some concepts (like flat-tax, fair tax, etc.).

Hey, I moved to Texas years ago, from California, and I can tell ya' we can be a bit loopy from time to time out here, but we're pretty serious about property rights and - like everyone in every other state - pretty disgusted with taxing authorities who view folks' property as only belonging to them as long as the authorities say so.

What do you think would happen if we eliminated property taxes for retirees?

62 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:29:39am

re: #48 Gus 802

"I'm not a truther I'm just askin' questions!111!!11" -- Debra Medina

//

Hm...where else have we seen that kind of rhetoric?


Palin: Obama birth certificate 'a fair question'

Speaking to the conservative talker Rusty Humphries [Dec 3, 09], Sarah Palin left the door open to speculation about President Obama's birth certificate.

"Would you make the birth certificate an issue if you ran?" she was asked

"I think the public rightfully is still making it an issue. I don't have a problem with that. I don't know if I would have to bother to make it an issue, because I think that members of the electorate still want answers," she replied.

"Do you think it's a fair question to be looking at?" Humphries persisted.

"I think it's a fair question, just like I think past association and past voting records -- all of that is fair game," Palin said. "The McCain-Palin campaign didn't do a good enough job in that area."

63 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:30:06am

re: #55 Guanxi88

Wow - we got to 51 comments without mentioning Palin. A new record!

Sorry...I just broke the record at #62.

64 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:30:16am

re: #61 jaunte

What do you think would happen if we eliminated property taxes for retirees?

Florida would go broke.
///

65 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:30:25am

re: #63 darthstar

Sorry...I just broke the record at #62.

Eh, it got broken at 51. Lady's everywhere, I tells ya/

66 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:30:58am

re: #58 Gus 802

Damn...beat me by 69 seconds.

67 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:31:54am

re: #49 Mosh

By the way, here is an excellent critique of the 'Fair' Tax from an Austrian point of view-- not that I"m a fan of the Austrian school, but the critique is spot-on in terms of the 'Fair' Tax advocates attempts to have their cake and eat it too.

[Link: mises.org...]

68 freetoken  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:31:54am

re: #61 jaunte

What about the idea of a depreciating tax liability on the principle residence? Perhaps it could be tied into years of ownership and age of resident.

Anyway, I agree with you that decoupling the funding source (property taxes) from the expenditures (say, the local school) is a bad idea. That is why I now believe Prop 13 out here has been a bad idea, though at one time I supported it.

69 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:32:07am

re: #61 jaunte

What do you think would happen if we eliminated property taxes for retirees?

Sounds like a good start but it doesn't protect property rights for younger people who either inherit property or can afford to purchase their own land.

70 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:32:09am

re: #42 Ojoe

Thank you for exposing the closet theocrats Charles.

I would last about 2 weeks under a theocracy.

i wouldn't last any longer, and i'm christian. don't these dolts remember why boatloads of people fled to this continent in the first place???

71 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:32:41am

re: #64 Cannadian Club Akbar

Florida would go broke.
///

xactly. not having an income tax is good enough for me...suck it, NYC!!

72 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:32:47am

This will make her place as distant third an extremely distant third. Eating dust at the end of the line.

73 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:33:27am

Has anyone mentioned Medina is a Paulian? From her Wiki:

She also served as Interim State Coordinator for the Campaign for Liberty.

74 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:33:50am

re: #69 Mosh

Sounds like a good start but it doesn't protect property rights for younger people who either inherit property or can afford to purchase their own land.

Biggest problem we have here in my county - and city, for that matter - is that the majority of the voting population are NOT property owners. Consequently, it is to them a light and easy thing to tax the Hell outta me and other property owners to fund their services and projects and such like. No skin off their noses.

75 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:33:58am

re: #72 Silvergirl

This will make her place as distant third an extremely distant third. Eating dust at the end of the line.

She'll get 3% if she's lucky. Maybe we can call her a 3-Percenter. /

76 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:34:02am

re: #68 freetoken

My parents (Texas) property tax froze at the rate that existed when my father retired. Not zero, but much less than their newer wealthier neighbors.

77 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:34:09am

re: #67 Obdicut

By the way, here is an excellent critique of the 'Fair' Tax from an Austrian point of view-- not that I"m a fan of the Austrian school, but the critique is spot-on in terms of the 'Fair' Tax advocates attempts to have their cake and eat it too.

[Link: mises.org...]

The Von Mises Institute is a crazy wing of the Paulian movement that believes Abraham Lincoln was a "murderous tyrant" and it is headed by the unapolgetic racist Lew Rockwell.

Most Austrians advocate a flat tax on all excises and imports, which to me and anti-capitalistic and protectionist.

78 subsailor68  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:34:22am

re: #61 jaunte

What do you think would happen if we eliminated property taxes for retirees?

Interesting question. Off the top of my head, as a conservative I'm not sure I would be comfortable with that idea. (That said, we do have a "freeze" on rates for seniors here where I live.)

One of the reasons I'm a little iffy is that, in my area, many of the seniors are extremely well-off, while younger folks who are working and have purchased a home don't have near the resources. So, if we eliminate taxes on wealthy seniors and transfer that burden to younger families, it may not be a good thing.

79 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:34:33am

re: #73 MandyManners

Has anyone mentioned Medina is a Paulian? From her Wiki:

She also served as Interim State Coordinator for the Campaign for Liberty.

Sometimes these connections are uncanny...like catnip for teh crazy...

80 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:35:05am

re: #74 Guanxi88

Biggest problem we have here in my county - and city, for that matter - is that the majority of the voting population are NOT property owners. Consequently, it is to them a light and easy thing to tax the Hell outta me and other property owners to fund their services and projects and such like. No skin off their noses.

Sounds like you got an "Atlas Shrugged" problem over there.

81 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:35:31am

re: #80 Mosh

Sounds like you got an "Atlas Shrugged" problem over there.

Still, no income tax, so one puts up with it.

82 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:35:47am

re: #78 subsailor68

The freeze at retirement is a pretty good compromise.

83 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:36:09am

re: #79 Aceofwhat?

Sometimes these connections are uncanny...like catnip for teh crazy...

Scratch a Paulian, find a troofer?

84 Baier  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:36:48am

re: #74 Guanxi88

Biggest problem we have here in my county - and city, for that matter - is that the majority of the voting population are NOT property owners. Consequently, it is to them a light and easy thing to tax the Hell outta me and other property owners to fund their services and projects and such like. No skin off their noses.

In NYC not only is that true, but 50% of all rentals are rent controlled. So, people can raise other peoples property taxes they want and never feel the effect.

85 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:37:08am

re: #75 Gus 802

She'll get 3% if she's lucky. Maybe we can call her a 3-Percenter. /

If she's also a Paulian, that may go lower. Though that may depend on how many Texans are Truthers and Lincoln haters.

86 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:37:11am

re: #76 jaunte

So a portion of your parents nest egg and their Social Security checks goes to the government because they will seize what is rightfully theirs if they don't.

That's a soft-tyranny if I've ever seen one. The government is giving with one hand and is taking with the other.

87 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:38:04am

re: #83 MandyManners

Scratch a Paulian, find a troofer?

Or an Alex Jones fan...or a birther...somehow it's never just one flavor. a blessing, i suppose - the fact that these folks are like the skittles of crazy makes them a lot easier to identify from a distance.

88 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:38:40am

re: #85 Silvergirl

If she's also a Paulian, that may go lower. Though that may depend on how many Texans are Truthers and Lincoln haters.

True. 3 percent is a high figure. My experience has been that fringe candidates generally get 3 percent or less.

89 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:39:01am

re: #86 Mosh

It's a compromise, yes.

90 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:39:05am

re: #87 Aceofwhat?

Or an Alex Jones fan...or a birther...somehow it's never just one flavor. a blessing, i suppose - the fact that these folks are like the skittles of crazy makes them a lot easier to identify from a distance.

MULTI-CULTI!

91 Irenicum  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:39:12am
92 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:39:21am

re: #80 Mosh

Sounds like you got an "Atlas Shrugged" problem over there.

No, that's just the inherent problem of Democracy, especially when you let the people themselves directly vote on issues like through Propositions, it becomes hard to tell civilized law making from mob rule....

93 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:39:28am

re: #77 Mosh

Yes. And Marx was a madman who wanted and prediction a revolution that will never come in the industrialized West-- but his critique of capitalism is still immensely valuable.

That said, Charles, if direct linking to Mises is verboten, please delete.

I was just demonstrating that not even those who normally love insane tax schemes that don't work are capable of poking holes in the thin fabric of the 'Fair' Tax. It's simply a dishonestly presented argument.

Here's Volokh citing Bruce Bartlett, instead.

[Link: volokh.com...]

94 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:39:34am

FWIW, here's a newspaper account of David Barton speaking at a small town in Oklahoma, sponsored by the local Republican party.

95 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:40:07am

What's shakin' reptiles?

96 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:40:22am

re: #67 Obdicut

Why are you looking at that loony bin website?

97 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:40:35am

re: #90 MandyManners

MULTI-CULTI!

taste the rainbow!

98 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:40:40am

re: #95 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

We're groanin' under the taxman's lash.

99 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:40:42am

re: #30 subsailor68

The sales tax is a regressive tax, but the property tax has its own issues (see NJ - where high property taxes led to the imposition of the personal income tax and a sales tax hike to pay for property tax relief all while property taxes continue spiraling out of control).

Property tax, however, is better for budgeting annually because there are fewer shifts on pricing whereas the sales tax revenues drop significantly in recessions (along with corp and personal income tax revenues).

No one single tax is a panacea to funding government operations. Also, some taxes are particularly regressive like sales taxes, motor fuel taxes, and the sin taxes. Moreover, those taxes can also lead to unintended consequences (or result from unintended consequences). Gas tax revenues drop because people drive less during recessions, but also because the cars they're driving are more efficient - they don't provide the same revenue per mile of road even as the costs to maintain increase. Cigarette taxes have risen exponentially in some areas, and see diminishing returns such that the programs they're meant to fund have budget shortfalls because the tax doesn't drive the revenue as it once did.

100 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:41:31am

re: #95 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What's shakin' reptiles?

I've been fantastic, per the usual.

101 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:42:00am

re: #95 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What's shakin' reptiles?

Whatever's hangin'!

102 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:42:27am

re: #95 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What's shakin' reptiles?

Twin Towers--inside job, ya know.

103 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:42:29am

re: #97 Aceofwhat?

taste the rainbow!

I'll be looking over my shoulder all day long.

104 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:42:38am

re: #99 lawhawk

The sales tax is a regressive tax, but the property tax has its own issues (see NJ - where high property taxes led to the imposition of the personal income tax and a sales tax hike to pay for property tax relief all while property taxes continue spiraling out of control).

Property tax, however, is better for budgeting annually because there are fewer shifts on pricing whereas the sales tax revenues drop significantly in recessions (along with corp and personal income tax revenues).

No one single tax is a panacea to funding government operations. Also, some taxes are particularly regressive like sales taxes, motor fuel taxes, and the sin taxes. Moreover, those taxes can also lead to unintended consequences (or result from unintended consequences). Gas tax revenues drop because people drive less during recessions, but also because the cars they're driving are more efficient - they don't provide the same revenue per mile of road even as the costs to maintain increase. Cigarette taxes have risen exponentially in some areas, and see diminishing returns such that the programs they're meant to fund have budget shortfalls because the tax doesn't drive the revenue as it once did.

What are the "sin taxes"?


Makes me think of Monty Python...

"We've got to find something new to tax?"

"What about thingy?"

105 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:42:40am

re: #96 Mosh

Please see my 93.

106 subsailor68  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:43:10am

re: #82 jaunte

The freeze at retirement is a pretty good compromise.

It seems so. I do sometimes wonder if means-testing might also help out. When someone tells me they're living on a fixed income, and that turns out to be $2,000,000 a year, it doesn't give me the "aw" factor as when a senior tells me he's living on his social security.

But I'd really like to see something creative that funds government without social engineering being part of the process.

107 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:43:15am

re: #102 Silvergirl

Twin Towers--inside job, ya know.

Fire can't melt steel!!11!!

/

108 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:43:19am

re: #102 Silvergirl

Twin Towers--inside job, ya know.

shhh, not without the gold-foil transmitter, fellow militia footsoldier!

109 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:43:20am

re: #104 jamesfirecat

What are the "sin taxes"?

Makes me think of Monty Python...

"We've got to find something new to tax?"

"What about thingy?"

Well, it would make chartered accountancy interesting.

110 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:43:56am

re: #104 jamesfirecat

What are the "sin taxes"?

Makes me think of Monty Python...

"We've got to find something new to tax?"

"What about thingy?"

Jean-Baptiste Colbert said it best.

"The art of taxation consists in so plucking the goose as to obtain the largest amount of feathers with the least amount of hissing."

111 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:44:37am

re: #103 MandyManners

I'll be looking over my shoulder all day long.

then the kommies have won...

112 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:44:45am

re: #104 jamesfirecat

Drinking, drugs, driving, gambling, etc. It's pretty much any tax that doesn't have a major constituency that can get together to oppose it in a meaningful way.

It's the last refuge of politicians who need to raise revenues but can't take a political hit over raising corporate, personal, property or sales taxes.

113 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:45:18am

re: #107 Gus 802

Fire can't melt steel!!11!!

/

I believe you mean

"How can fire undo stone? What kind of device could bring down a wall?

114 Bubblehead II  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:45:23am

OT

Haitian judge rules for release of U.S. missionaries

"They can go directly to the airport if they want and leave, but they should provide a guarantee of representation if further questions need to be asked," he said.

Wonder what the local rag is going to print when they get back home.

115 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:45:34am

re: #112 lawhawk

Drinking, drugs, driving, gambling, etc. It's pretty much any tax that doesn't have a major constituency that can get together to oppose it in a meaningful way.

It's the last refuge of politicians who need to raise revenues but can't take a political hit over raising corporate, personal, property or sales taxes.

also: a vastly superior method of controlling pot.

but that's just my humble opinion. and i don't even partake.

116 subsailor68  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:45:39am

re: #99 lawhawk

Hi lawhawk! Bingo and a big thumbs-up to all you said!

117 Clemente  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:45:57am

Hmmph! You can keep your Becks and your Stewarts, I prefer serious journalism, where stories celebrating our illustrious national leaders still carry the day and make our country the talk of all the world's great capitals:

JOHN EDWARDS ASKS MISTRESS RIELLE HUNTER TO MARRY HIM!

118 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:46:00am

re: #110 Aceofwhat?

Don't even get me started.

119 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:46:07am

Here's how some Europeans have sublimated their tax complaints:
[Link: www.eurorailhobbies.com...]

120 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:46:33am

re: #111 Aceofwhat?

then the kommies have won...

Enough to change their name.

121 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:46:49am

re: #115 Aceofwhat?

also: a vastly superior method of controlling pot.

but that's just my humble opinion. and i don't even partake.

Well if by "superior" you mean it would cost us less than hiring people to raid green houses, while at the same time generating revenue for our government, then yes I agree with you.

122 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:46:50am

re: #116 subsailor68

Hi lawhawk! Bingo and a big thumbs-up to all you said!

What's new?...

123 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:47:13am

re: #121 jamesfirecat

Well if by "superior" you mean it would cost us less than hiring people to raid green houses, while at the same time generating revenue for our government, then yes I agree with you.

Bingo.

124 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:47:25am

re: #119 jaunte

Here's how some Europeans have sublimated their tax complaints:
[Link: www.eurorailhobbies.com...]

Extremist model railroading! /

125 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:47:59am

re: #124 Gus 802

It's just a tiny bit of arson.

126 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:48:30am

re: #93 Obdicut

Marx's critique of capitalism has brainwashed a generation of liberal youth who go around wearing Che Guevera and Red Star t-shirts.

Marx's critique of capitalism lead to the greatest famine in world history and untold suffering.

Read the "Black Book of Communism"

Learn about Marxism and its results before you type Daily Kos-esque comments.

127 cliffster  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:48:31am

re: #114 Bubblehead II

OT

Haitian judge rules for release of U.S. missionaries

"They can go directly to the airport if they want and leave, but they should provide a guarantee of representation if further questions need to be asked," he said.

Wonder what the local rag is going to print when they get back home.

So the judge rules stupidity over kidnapping

128 subsailor68  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:48:53am

re: #112 lawhawk

Drinking, drugs, driving, gambling, etc. It's pretty much any tax that doesn't have a major constituency that can get together to oppose it in a meaningful way.

It's the last refuge of politicians who need to raise revenues but can't take a political hit over raising corporate, personal, property or sales taxes.

Yep! And the insidious part of it all is that those same politicians defend "sin" taxes as being "good for people, as it encourages behavior change".

All the while spending that money on existing or new programs that would need a new source of revenue if people actually DID modify their behavior as the politicians "want".

Politician A: "Gee, what happened to all our cigarette tax revenue?"
Politician B: "Um, remember when we kept telling people smoking was bad for them, and stuff?"

129 cliffster  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:48:54am

good afternoon, cold-blooded friends

130 Baier  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:49:10am

re: #112 lawhawk

Drinking, drugs, driving, gambling, etc. It's pretty much any tax that doesn't have a major constituency that can get together to oppose it in a meaningful way.

It's the last refuge of politicians who need to raise revenues but can't take a political hit over raising corporate, personal, property or sales taxes.

Coincidentally, they are often taxes associated with some of the most power lobbies.

131 Lidane  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:49:12am

re: #104 jamesfirecat

What are the "sin taxes"?

Makes me think of Monty Python...

"We've got to find something new to tax?"

"What about thingy?"

re: #109 Guanxi88

Well, it would make chartered accountancy interesting.

132 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:49:19am

re: #123 Aceofwhat?

Bingo.

Glad that there's something we can agree on.

I don't support legalizing all drugs because I don't feel well enough informed, but damn it the only reason that pot is illegal is because a man who some might consider the 19th century version of Roger Ailes wanted it to be to prevent the value of the timber he owned from dropping!

133 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:49:42am

re: #119 jaunte

Here's how some Europeans have sublimated their tax complaints:
[Link: www.eurorailhobbies.com...]

I wonder if it would fit on The Kid's Lionel train set.

134 Baier  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:49:44am

re: #130 Baier

Coincidentally, they are often taxes associated with some of the most power lobbies.

Forgot sarc tag.

135 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:49:58am

re: #127 cliffster

So the judge rules stupidity over kidnapping

I'm not sure that stupidity and ignorance aren't affirmative defenses.

We all remember when Peggy Hill "kidnapped" a girl in Mexico, and was able to demonstrate herself so fundamentally ignorant as to lack the requisite mens rea for a criminal act.

136 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:50:10am

Here’s another article on Barton and his theocratic front group, the National Council On Bible Curriculum In Public Schools: Historical Revisionism in the NCBCPS Curriculum.

137 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:50:26am

re: #126 Mosh

Marx's critique of capitalism has brainwashed a generation of liberal youth who go around wearing Che Guevera and Red Star t-shirts.

Marx's critique of capitalism lead to the greatest famine in world history and untold suffering.

Read the "Black Book of Communism"

Learn about Marxism and its results before you type Daily Kos-esque comments.

And Jesus' commands that we love one another have lead to the Crusades.

Lets look at what the person is actually saying rather than how certain people interpret it....

138 mr. hammer  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:50:55am

re: #70 Aceofwhat?

don't these dolts remember why boatloads of people fled to this continent in the first place???

to form their own theocracy.

139 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:51:14am

re: #137 jamesfirecat

Shameless bait and switch argument.

140 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:52:09am

re: #137 jamesfirecat

And Jesus' commands that we love one another have lead to the Crusades.

Lets look at what the person is actually saying rather than how certain people interpret it...

Marx's critique of Capitalism calls for the seizure of private property. That in and of itself makes Marxism a morally bankrupt philosophy.

141 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:52:31am

re: #95 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What's shakin' reptiles?

Bunnies.

142 cliffster  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:52:35am

re: #135 Guanxi88

I'm not sure that stupidity and ignorance aren't affirmative defenses.

We all remember when Peggy Hill "kidnapped" a girl in Mexico, and was able to demonstrate herself so fundamentally ignorant as to lack the requisite mens rea for a criminal act.

I think citing King Of The Hill in a law discussion is just awesome. I nominate you for the supreme court!

143 Bubblehead II  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:52:42am

re: #127 cliffster

Looks like it.

144 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:52:57am

re: #132 jamesfirecat

Glad that there's something we can agree on.

I don't support legalizing all drugs because I don't feel well enough informed, but damn it the only reason that pot is illegal is because a man who some might consider the 19th century version of Roger Ailes wanted it to be to prevent the value of the timber he owned from dropping!

Well, yes. Hardcore drugs are one thing - i'm sure you wouldn't be surprised to hear that i want a nanny state as badly as i want a third armpit.

But many drugs are too dangerous to be made available, IMHO, with regard to both their effects on the human body and their propensity for addiction, so i have no issue with their illegal status. It's just really hard for me, as someone to does their best to be rational about these things, to say that pot is closer to cocaine than nicotine.

145 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:53:05am

re: #142 cliffster

I think citing King Of The Hill in a law discussion is just awesome. I nominate you for the supreme court!

Hey - a precedent is a precedent!

146 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:53:24am

After the snow comes the manhole explosions. And since this is NYC we're talking about, business goes on as usual without so much as a blip - cars and cyclists going about as if watching a fire on the side of the street is common.

147 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:53:44am

re: #139 Mosh

Shameless bait and switch argument.

What?

The fact that people have incorrectly interpreted Marx's teachings (Russia and China look nothing at all like the kind of industrialized country Marx was talking about) mean that we have to now consider those faulty interpretations above what was actually written?

148 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:53:59am

re: #126 Mosh

Marx's critique of capitalism has brainwashed a generation of liberal youth who go around wearing Che Guevera and Red Star t-shirts.

You think that most of those people wearing Che shirts have even read Marx, or can explain his argument? Hardly.

Marx's critique of capitalism lead to the greatest famine in world history and untold suffering.

Marxism, in every form deployed and tried, has been an utter failure, for very good reasons; it's not a workable system unto itself. But it's still a great critque-- it correctly points out many areas of capitalism where the self-interest of labor and of capital collide. What he was wrong about was that that would lead to any sort of revolution, rather than, as we can see in the Industrialized West, a more enlightened relationship between capital and labor.

Learn about Marxism and its results before you type Daily Kos-esque comments.

Oh please. Have you read the Bartlett critique of the 'Fair' Tax?

149 sagehen  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:54:42am

re: #99 lawhawk

Moreover, those taxes can also lead to unintended consequences (or result from unintended consequences). Gas tax revenues drop because people drive less during recessions, but also because the cars they're driving are more efficient - they don't provide the same revenue per mile of road even as the costs to maintain increase. Cigarette taxes have risen exponentially in some areas, and see diminishing returns such that the programs they're meant to fund have budget shortfalls because the tax doesn't drive the revenue as it once did.

I'm not sure those are unintended consequences at all -- if people use less gas and smoke less cigarettes, that's one of the things the people who support those taxes were hoping would happen.

150 Baier  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:54:51am

re: #147 jamesfirecat

What?

The fact that people have incorrectly interpreted Marx's teachings (Russia and China look nothing at all like the kind of industrialized country Marx was talking about) mean that we have to now consider those faulty interpretations above what was actually written?

That's not what you said. Let's not play pretend.

151 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:55:00am

re: #138 mr. hammer

to form their own theocracy.

re: #137 jamesfirecat

too far, dude.

152 SixDegrees  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:55:17am

re: #127 cliffster

So the judge rules stupidity over kidnapping

Not the outcome I was hoping for, but understandable, I suppose. Prosecution for kidnapping would essentially be an effort to prove intent, difficult under any circumstances. And there's little doubt that the Haitian legal system probably has bigger fish to fry at the moment.

At least there's now a record on these people and their activities.

Here's hoping that the public exposure of this group's actions are sufficient to derail any further actions by them.

153 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:55:24am

re: #147 jamesfirecat

What?

The fact that people have incorrectly interpreted Marx's teachings (Russia and China look nothing at all like the kind of industrialized country Marx was talking about) mean that we have to now consider those faulty interpretations above what was actually written?

Marxism is evil per se.

154 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:55:25am

re: #147 jamesfirecat

What?

The fact that people have incorrectly interpreted Marx's teachings (Russia and China look nothing at all like the kind of industrialized country Marx was talking about) mean that we have to now consider those faulty interpretations above what was actually written?

Marxian historical materialism holds that the theory of communism is inseparable from its practice. Consequently, the USSR was, on Marxian terms, exactly what socialism should look like.

155 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:55:34am

re: #151 Aceofwhat?

re: #137 jamesfirecat

too far, dude.

pimf. only meant to quote 137. sorry, Mr Hammer.

156 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:56:02am

re: #147 jamesfirecat

We are talking about Marxism and you tried to switch to Jesus and the Crusades. (which is a debatable link).

157 Irenicum  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:56:22am

An interesting article in this Sunday's NYTimes about the politicization of social studies in Texas education. Well worth the read.

158 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:56:24am

re: #150 Baier

That's not what you said. Let's not play pretend.

I was trying to say that just have people have incorrectly interpreted Marx and it has lead to suffering, so have people incorrectly interpreted the words of Jesus Christ and it has lead to suffering.

Is this not a fair statement to make?

I don't feel that the above statement though true means that we should allow those bad interpretations to keep us from honestly looking at what the person we're talking about actually said.

159 Baier  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:57:44am

re: #158 jamesfirecat

I was trying to say that just have people have incorrectly interpreted Marx and it has lead to suffering, so have people incorrectly interpreted the words of Jesus Christ and it has lead to suffering.

Is this not a fair statement to make?

I don't feel that the above statement though true means that we should allow those bad interpretations to keep us from honestly looking at what the person we're talking about actually said.

If that's what you meant to say, you failed.

160 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:57:58am

re: #158 jamesfirecat

I was trying to say that just have people have incorrectly interpreted Marx and it has lead to suffering, so have people incorrectly interpreted the words of Jesus Christ and it has lead to suffering.

Is this not a fair statement to make?

I don't feel that the above statement though true means that we should allow those bad interpretations to keep us from honestly looking at what the person we're talking about actually said.

That roughly approximates what I believed when I was a member of the CPUSA. I grew up and out of it.

161 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:58:00am

re: #147 jamesfirecat

Well, Marx was proved definitively wrong, as capitalism in the West has not moved anything towards a proletarian revolution. That the revolution occurred in Russia and China is actually a disproof of his historical theory.

162 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:58:04am

re: #159 Baier

If that's what you meant to say, you failed.

Well then I'll keep trying till I get it right!

163 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:58:05am

re: #152 SixDegrees

Not the outcome I was hoping for, but understandable, I suppose. Prosecution for kidnapping would essentially be an effort to prove intent, difficult under any circumstances. And there's little doubt that the Haitian legal system probably has bigger fish to fry at the moment.

At least there's now a record on these people and their activities.

Here's hoping that the public exposure of this group's actions are sufficient to derail any further actions by them.

well, it's also hard to prove intent when enough parents show up and say that they did indeed hand their kids over.

still, your latter point is spot on. let's hope the consequences of such monumental stupidity derail anything similar in the future...

164 Baier  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:58:33am

re: #162 jamesfirecat

Well then I'll keep trying till I get it right!

Try a little less. I don't think every other comment on here needs to be from you.

165 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 11:59:11am

re: #163 Aceofwhat?

well, it's also hard to prove intent when enough parents show up and say that they did indeed hand their kids over.

still, your latter point is spot on. let's hope the consequences of such monumental stupidity derail anything similar in the future...

And force them to get proper, legal process.

166 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:00:04pm

re: #161 Obdicut

Well, Marx was proved definitively wrong, as capitalism in the West has not moved anything towards a proletarian revolution. That the revolution occurred in Russia and China is actually a disproof of his historical theory.

I don't support Marxism, the question that I thought we were arguing is, did he have a point in his critique of capitalism? And if so what is the correct response, since the solution he provided is clearly not the right one.

167 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:00:49pm

re: #156 Mosh

We started off talking about the 'Fair' Tax, of which you are a supporter. You referenced, in defense of it, a book, which I have already read and have found did not, in fact, address any critique in any sufficient way.

Are you making the claim that the Fair Tax would not move more of the tax burden to the middle class?

168 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:01:29pm

re: #164 Baier

Try a little less. I don't think every other comment on here needs to be from you.

And miss out on all the great things I've learned hear by being so vocally wrong at times?

169 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:02:01pm

re: #166 jamesfirecat

I don't support Marxism, the question that I thought we were arguing is, did he have a point in his critique of capitalism? And if so what is the correct response, since the solution he provided is clearly not the right one.

No, Marx's critique was morally bankrupt because his critique advocated the abolition of private property. He was advocating a system that would steal people's lively hoods and give them to the collective.

I'm sick of Marxist apologists like you!

170 Baier  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:02:30pm

re: #168 jamesfirecat

And miss out on all the great things I've learned hear by being so vocally wrong at times?

I try to be positive about things. Think about all the times you would have missed out on being offensive instead.

171 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:02:45pm

OT:

In order to piss off the Saudi's this Valentine season I am only buying Red items. Suck on that ticks and zealots.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

172 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:02:49pm

re: #168 jamesfirecat

And miss out on all the great things I've learned hear by being so vocally wrong at times?

LOL!

*noogies*

173 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:02:52pm

re: #154 Guanxi88

Marxian historical materialism holds that the theory of communism is inseparable from its practice. Consequently, the USSR was, on Marxian terms, exactly what socialism should look like.

You fail to account for the fact that MArx's theories were predicated on the precondition of abundance, which most certainly was not the case for the USSR and Russia. I think it is perfectly fair to discuss Marx's critique of capitalism without referencing the various totalitarian regimes that attempted to employ his ideas with absurd results.

Re #40 Mosh "Marx's critique of Capitalism calls for the seizure of private property. That in and of itself makes Marxism a morally bankrupt philosophy."

I think you would find that Marx believed quite the opposite, that it was exactly the notion of private property as employed in the west as morally bankrupt.

Not agreeing. Just saying.

174 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:03:08pm

re: #169 Mosh

No, Marx's critique was morally bankrupt because his critique advocated the abolition of private property. He was advocating a system that would steal people's lively hoods and give them to the collective.

I'm sick of Marxist apologists like you!

Isn't it possible to separate Marx's analysis of the problem of Capitalism, and his solution to that problem?

175 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:03:21pm

re: #167 Obdicut

There is no statistical data to prove that accurately because the only way to test it is to implement it. It is a brand new tax system and has never been tried.

176 shiplord kirel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:03:37pm

Further along in Medina's official response, she changes the subject by equating criticism with suppression:

The real underlying question here, though, is whether or not people have the right to question our government.

An exceptionally crude lie, Debra. As I have been telling lefties for 40 years, you have the right to espouse any crazy, irrational, or inflammatory doctrine you like. Nobody here has questioned that but you do not have the right to expect those who disagree others to remain silent in response or to disregard your stated positions when they choose a candidate. Once again, the Constitution only guarantees the right to speak. It does not guarantee the right to the forum of your choice, to set the terms of debate, to an audience, or to be taken seriously.

Then she goes on to spin trooferism into an attack on Perry and Hutchison for fostering distrust of politicians:

I think the fact that people are even asking questions on this level gets to the incredible distrust career politicians have fostered by so clearly taking their direction from special interests instead of the people, whether it's Rick Perry and his HPV mandate or Kay Hutchison and voting for the bank bailout. It is absolutely the right and duty of a free people to question their government. Texas does not need another politician who tells you what you want to hear, then violates your liberties and steals your property anyway. I fully expect to be questioned and to be held accountable as Governor, and that's the underlying issue here: should people be questioning their government. And the answer is yes, they should be.


Again, that just not mean that all questions are equally deserving of respect or even common courtesy.

177 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:03:38pm

re: #152 SixDegrees


Here's hoping that the public exposure of this group's actions are sufficient to derail any further actions by them.

My guess is they'll regroup, file more paperwork, and in five or six months be up and running their adoption agency out of the Dominican Republic--there's too much potential money there not to. They'll see their release as "vindication" and justification for going forward--at least the leader will...the other nine who spent two weeks in jail will likely say they've done their part and are happy to be home with their families.

178 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:04:02pm

re: #166 jamesfirecat

The 'correct response' is more Smithian than it is Marxist; Smith's original writings on the motivations of individuals in the capitalist system and the relationship between labor and capital, combined with Enlightenment ideas of human & property rights and self-determination, are a sufficient foil to the naturally inhuman parts of a pure capitalist system.

Any system that attempts to ameliorate capitalism has to be capable of evolving along with capitalism, as the recent market meltdown showed.

179 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:04:09pm

re: #173 Petero1818

You fail to account for the fact that MArx's theories were predicated on the precondition of abundance, which most certainly was not the case for the USSR and Russia. I think it is perfectly fair to discuss Marx's critique of capitalism without referencing the various totalitarian regimes that attempted to employ his ideas with absurd results.

Re #40 Mosh "Marx's critique of Capitalism calls for the seizure of private property. That in and of itself makes Marxism a morally bankrupt philosophy."

I think you would find that Marx believed quite the opposite, that it was exactly the notion of private property as employed in the west as morally bankrupt.

Not agreeing. Just saying.

That is the crux of the evil inherent in Marxism.

180 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:04:17pm

re: #126 Mosh

Marx's critique of capitalism has brainwashed a generation of liberal youth who go around wearing Che Guevera and Red Star t-shirts.

Marx's critique of capitalism lead to the greatest famine in world history and untold suffering.

Read the "Black Book of Communism"

Learn about Marxism and its results before you type Daily Kos-esque comments.

I have that book in Bulgarian...brutal, brutal, brutal.

181 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:04:18pm

re: #174 jamesfirecat

Isn't it possible to separate Marx's analysis of the problem of Capitalism, and his solution to that problem?

Again, his critique is all solutions. There would be no capitalist "oppression" if we disposed of private property.

182 fizzlogic  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:04:21pm

re: #30 subsailor68

I'm no economist but I think the former "luxury tax" illustrates a huge flaw in the "fair tax." The less necessary a taxable item is the more likely a tax on it will effect its placement on the demand curve. Meaning people will buy less of it at the greater, taxed price. That's why we tend to tax things that are necessary, like gasoline, because it's less elastic to price--people must buy it.

But, as I said, I'm not an economist, so I may be wrong.

183 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:05:24pm

re: #179 MandyManners

That is the crux of the evil inherent in Marxism.

I know enough to know that nobody has a monopoly on the definition of Evil.

184 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:05:44pm

re: #173 Petero1818

You fail to account for the fact that MArx's theories were predicated on the precondition of abundance, which most certainly was not the case for the USSR and Russia. I think it is perfectly fair to discuss Marx's critique of capitalism without referencing the various totalitarian regimes that attempted to employ his ideas with absurd results.

Re #40 Mosh "Marx's critique of Capitalism calls for the seizure of private property. That in and of itself makes Marxism a morally bankrupt philosophy."

I think you would find that Marx believed quite the opposite, that it was exactly the notion of private property as employed in the west as morally bankrupt.

Not agreeing. Just saying.

re: #174 jamesfirecat

Isn't it possible to separate Marx's analysis of the problem of Capitalism, and his solution to that problem?

Absolutely - diagnosis is not eh same as a treatment plan. To a certain degree, I think Marxism was yet another of those tiresome 19th century attempts at totalizing and reducing all things human to a few basic material factors. Very primitive thinking, although there's no denying the man - Marx - was probably one of the best-educated men of his day.

As for commuinsm hitting in Russia and China - the thing still mystifies me, and I go back to Solzhenitsyn's quip that the real tragedy of the 20th century was that the communist experiment was tried in a country with so large a population.

185 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:05:58pm

re: #182 trendsurfer

I'm no economist but I think the former "luxury tax" illustrates a huge flaw in the "fair tax." The less necessary a taxable item is the more likely a tax on it will effect its placement on the demand curve. Meaning people will buy less of it at the greater, taxed price. That's why we tend to tax things that are necessary, like gasoline, because it's less elastic to price--people must buy it.

But, as I said, I'm not an economist, so I may be wrong.

FairTax taxes every new good and service. It also covers the 23% tax for the basic necessities of life, food, shelter, clothing, etc.

186 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:06:01pm

re: #183 Petero1818

I know enough to know that nobody has a monopoly on the definition of Evil.

Did I claim that I had a monopoly?

187 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:06:39pm

re: #175 Mosh

That's a serious answer?

Can you explain, in particular, what about table five in Bartlett's critique you take issue with? What might be revealed by a real-world implementation that he has not considered? Just 'something'?

Take note of this paragraph, as well:

Even with the rebate counted the way FairTax supporters
want it calculated—as a reduction in tax liability
rather than an increase in income — there would be an
enormous shift in the tax burden from the wealthy to
those with lower and middle incomes. Table 5 shows
Treasury’s estimate based only on replacement of income
taxes.

188 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:06:43pm

re: #182 trendsurfer

I'm no economist but I think the former "luxury tax" illustrates a huge flaw in the "fair tax." The less necessary a taxable item is the more likely a tax on it will effect its placement on the demand curve. Meaning people will buy less of it at the greater, taxed price. That's why we tend to tax things that are necessary, like gasoline, because it's less elastic to price--people must buy it.

But, as I said, I'm not an economist, so I may be wrong.

When I can afford a Maserati, I'll get one. Whether or not I have to pay an extra 10% luxury tax.

189 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:06:59pm

re: #126 Mosh

Marx's critique of capitalism has brainwashed a generation of liberal youth who go around wearing Che Guevera and Red Star t-shirts.

Marx's critique of capitalism lead to the greatest famine in world history and untold suffering.

Read the "Black Book of Communism"

Learn about Marxism and its results before you type Daily Kos-esque comments.

I was guilty of judging capitalism by its operations and socialism by its hopes and aspirations; capitalism by its works and socialism by its literature.
-- Sidney Hook

190 subsailor68  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:07:08pm

re: #174 jamesfirecat

Isn't it possible to separate Marx's analysis of the problem of Capitalism, and his solution to that problem?

Not really. That's a bit like saying isn't it possible to posit that Dr. Hacksaw is a competent surgeon, even though he consistently removes the wrong organs when he operates?

191 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:07:22pm

re: #182 trendsurfer

I think you're right. It's one reason why gasoline taxes are regressive to people who live outside urban areas and have to use more to get to work.

192 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:08:02pm

re: #190 subsailor68

Not really. That's a bit like saying isn't it possible to posit that Dr. Hacksaw is a competent surgeon, even though he consistently removes the wrong organs when he operates?

Hi, everybody!
Hi, Dr. Nick!

193 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:08:04pm

re: #147 jamesfirecat

What?

The fact that people have incorrectly interpreted Marx's teachings (Russia and China look nothing at all like the kind of industrialized country Marx was talking about) mean that we have to now consider those faulty interpretations above what was actually written?

There are sky-wards of 70 million people dead because of Marxism. How many more at-bats do you want to give him?

194 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:08:08pm

re: #168 jamesfirecat

And miss out on all the great things I've learned hear by being so vocally wrong at times?

I appreciate what you're saying and your right to post, and will upding your comment in just a second. While I'm here, I want to point out something that a spell checker won't pick up. An easy way to remember how to use here and hear is that hear is what you do with your ear. Add an 'h' to ear. Here is the here as in here and there. Take the 't' off there and you have here. I hope this helps.

195 fizzlogic  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:08:13pm

re: #185 Mosh

FairTax taxes every new good and service.

I understand that. But to say it evens it all out goes against human nature. If something costs more we tend to not buy it.

196 SixDegrees  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:08:57pm

re: #177 darthstar

My guess is they'll regroup, file more paperwork, and in five or six months be up and running their adoption agency out of the Dominican Republic--there's too much potential money there not to. They'll see their release as "vindication" and justification for going forward--at least the leader will...the other nine who spent two weeks in jail will likely say they've done their part and are happy to be home with their families.

Entirely possible. All one can do is hope that the exposure and the existence of a court record will weigh against their success, or at least encourage much more scrutiny of their activities.

It might also be useful for someone to take a look at their activities and financial dealings in the US. I understand there's some history of tax evasion and other problems with some of the members who were charged in this instance.

197 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:09:04pm

re: #186 MandyManners

Did I claim that I had a monopoly?

No you claimed to have the definition of Evil as it pertained to the issue of Property rights. I personally enjoy my property rights, but I certainly don't believe that someone who has a different belief about them is Evil, wrong IMHO, but evil? I don't buy it.

198 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:09:06pm

re: #190 subsailor68

Not really. That's a bit like saying isn't it possible to posit that Dr. Hacksaw is a competent surgeon, even though he consistently removes the wrong organs when he operates?

I was thinking it'd be more like, what if Doctor Hacksaw is able to correctly diagnose you with appendicitis, but then takes out your gall bladder....

199 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:09:12pm

re: #193 The Sanity Inspector

There are sky-wards of 70 million people dead because of Marxism. How many more at-bats do you want to give him?

You truely are the Sanity Inspector.

200 subsailor68  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:09:41pm

re: #182 trendsurfer

I'm no economist but I think the former "luxury tax" illustrates a huge flaw in the "fair tax." The less necessary a taxable item is the more likely a tax on it will effect its placement on the demand curve. Meaning people will buy less of it at the greater, taxed price. That's why we tend to tax things that are necessary, like gasoline, because it's less elastic to price--people must buy it.

But, as I said, I'm not an economist, so I may be wrong.

Hi trendsurfer. You may not be an economist, but I do believe you're right about the luxury tax. (Don't know enough about the fair and flat tax concepts yet to comment on those.)

;-)

201 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:09:48pm

re: #195 trendsurfer

I understand that. But to say it evens it all out goes against human nature. If something costs more we tend to not buy it.

Fair tax would kill retail sales on high ticket items.

202 Lidane  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:10:04pm

I haven't read much in the way of Marx, so I'm not equipped to enter that fray. That said, the discussion about him and his ideas has been an interesting read. I'm learning that I need a lot more in the way of an economics education.

Looks like I might just have to expand my reading list for the year.

203 Mr. Hammer  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:10:11pm

re: #173 Petero1818

You fail to account for the fact that MArx's theories were predicated on the precondition of abundance, which most certainly was not the case for the USSR and Russia. I think it is perfectly fair to discuss Marx's critique of capitalism without referencing the various totalitarian regimes that attempted to employ his ideas with absurd results.

USSR had unequalled natural resources, but the abundance vaporized under the yoke of communism.

204 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:10:13pm

re: #193 The Sanity Inspector

There are sky-wards of 70 million people dead because of Marxism. How many more at-bats do you want to give him?

I would tack on at least an additional 130 plus million to that...in fact we will NEVER get the true count of deaths that actually took place under that 'well intentioned' mantle of thought. If we had the true count it would be staggering.

205 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:10:18pm

re: #193 The Sanity Inspector

There are sky-wards of 70 million people dead because of Marxism. How many more at-bats do you want to give him?

I don't want to give Marxism another at bat I was suggesting look at what he sees as a problem, if it is a problem, then lets try and find a new solution since his clearly doesn't work. If its not a problem then lets forget about it.

206 Kragar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:10:34pm

re: #194 Silvergirl

I appreciate what you're saying and your right to post, and will upding your comment in just a second. While I'm here, I want to point out something that a spell checker won't pick up. An easy way to remember how to use here and hear is that hear is what you do with your ear. Add an 'h' to ear. Here is the here as in here and there. Take the 't' off there and you have here. I hope this helps.

There, their, and they're always kick my ass when I'm posting. I propose a new spelling "thayre" which changes meaning based on the context of the sentence, like the word wind, for example.

207 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:11:13pm

re: #195 trendsurfer

I understand that. But to say it evens it all out goes against human nature. If something costs more we tend to not buy it.

It wouldn't cost more because there is a 22% imbeded tax in all goods and services. (VAT, corporate income tax, gas tax). So in fact it is a 1% increase in price and you get to keep 100% of your earnings.

208 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:11:14pm

re: #194 Silvergirl

I appreciate what you're saying and your right to post, and will upding your comment in just a second. While I'm here, I want to point out something that a spell checker won't pick up. An easy way to remember how to use here and hear is that hear is what you do with your ear. Add an 'h' to ear. Here is the here as in here and there. Take the 't' off there and you have here. I hope this helps.

I know the difference, my fingers just don't care evidently. It used to be that I only used "here" which I probably should go back to, since I'd be right about 99% of the time with my postings on this blog....

209 Soap_Man  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:11:16pm

re: #191 jaunte

I think you're right. It's one reason why gasoline taxes are regressive to people who live outside urban areas and have to use more to get to work.

But remember that gas prices are often lower in rural areas compared to their urban counterparts. And city folk tend to have to drive in traffic and although the distance may be shorter, they waste a lot by being stuck at lights or in traffic. You get much better gas milage when you are driving in rural areas.

This is not so much a point that needs to be made as it is a guy who lives in Chicago who hates how much he pays for gas and how much he burns stuck on the expressway...

210 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:11:34pm

re: #201 Gus 802

It'd also tax huge numbers of services that currently are untaxed, and create an instant black market-- just as we're seeing a bigger and bigger black market for cigarettes due to the taxes on them.

211 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:11:35pm

re: #197 Petero1818

No you claimed to have the definition of Evil as it pertained to the issue of Property rights. I personally enjoy my property rights, but I certainly don't believe that someone who has a different belief about them is Evil, wrong IMHO, but evil? I don't buy it.

Where did I say that anyone is evil?

212 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:11:56pm

re: #196 SixDegrees

Entirely possible. All one can do is hope that the exposure and the existence of a court record will weigh against their success, or at least encourage much more scrutiny of their activities.

It might also be useful for someone to take a look at their activities and financial dealings in the US. I understand there's some history of tax evasion and other problems with some of the members who were charged in this instance.

Look for Silsby to be a frequent guest on Fox news in the near future, and possibly a paid spokesperson at some up-coming tea party event. As with James O'Keefe(entirely unrelated to Haiti, of course), there will be a group of people who will make her out to be the victim in all of this and try to use the event for personal gain.

213 windsword  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:12:23pm

Can someone even explain why there ARE Republican truthers running for office? I always thought there were four major motivations for believing it.

1. Anti-Americanism/ Anti-Bushism. This is the clearly more left-wing motivation.
2. Absolution of Muslims. Again, not exactly a Republican sentiment, and more prevalent in the Middle East than the US anyways.
3. Pinning it on Israel. Equally unlikely.
4. Anti-government. Probably the primary motivation among truther Republicans. But if you're anti-government, why run for public office?

*Sigh*, I just wish I could get inside the heads of these people. Seriously, someone help me out.

214 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:13:20pm

re: #205 jamesfirecat

I don't want to give Marxism another at bat I was suggesting look at what he sees as a problem, if it is a problem, then lets try and find a new solution since his clearly doesn't work. If its not a problem then lets forget about it.

You still fail to acknowledge that private property, the price system, and supply and demand are what drives the economy. Marx's critique of the basic tenants of capitalism was debunked time and time again in the 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries.

215 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:13:21pm

re: #213 windsword

Can someone even explain why there ARE Republican truthers running for office? I always thought there were four major motivations for believing it.

1. Anti-Americanism/ Anti-Bushism. This is the clearly more left-wing motivation.
2. Absolution of Muslims. Again, not exactly a Republican sentiment, and more prevalent in the Middle East than the US anyways.
3. Pinning it on Israel. Equally unlikely.
4. Anti-government. Probably the primary motivation among truther Republicans. But if you're anti-government, why run for public office?

*Sigh*, I just wish I could get inside the heads of these people. Seriously, someone help me out.

It might help if you stop trying to apply logic to insanity.

216 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:13:50pm

re: #213 windsword

Can someone even explain why there ARE Republican truthers running for office? I always thought there were four major motivations for believing it.

1. Anti-Americanism/ Anti-Bushism. This is the clearly more left-wing motivation.
2. Absolution of Muslims. Again, not exactly a Republican sentiment, and more prevalent in the Middle East than the US anyways.
3. Pinning it on Israel. Equally unlikely.
4. Anti-government. Probably the primary motivation among truther Republicans. But if you're anti-government, why run for public office?

*Sigh*, I just wish I could get inside the heads of these people. Seriously, someone help me out.

Number four with a healthy side helping of do you know how much people who hold public office make and what great healthcare plans they have?

217 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:13:55pm

re: #213 windsword

You now have Karma.

218 fizzlogic  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:14:36pm

re: #188 darthstar

When I can afford a Maserati, I'll get one. Whether or not I have to pay an extra 10% luxury tax.

IIRC, a Democratic Congress and President repealed the luxury tax due to its detrimental effect on the sale of luxury goods and thus the industry which produced them. Even the wealthy are deterred by price.

219 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:15:17pm

re: #207 Mosh

Have you read the Bartlett piece in regards to the 'embedded tax' idea?

One problem with analyzing the distributional consequences
of the FairTax is that its supporters sometimes argue that after-tax incomes will rise by enough to pay the higher prices for goods and services once the 23 percent is added to the prices people pay today. At other
times, they argue that prices will fall once income taxes currently embedded in prices are removed, implying a free lunch in which everyone is better off and no one is worse off. Actually, it’s a double free lunch because not
only do you get to keep all the taxes currently withheld and pay no more for goods and services now, but you get the rebate as well. As FairTax advocates Neal Boortz and John Linder put it:

Once the FairTax takes effect, you’ll be receiving
100 percent of every paycheck, with no withholding
of federal income taxes, Social Security taxes, or
Medicare taxes — and you’ll be paying just about
the same price for T-shirts and other consumer
goods and services that you were paying before the
FairTax. But there’s something more. Under the
FairTax Plan, you’ll also be receiving a check every
month from the federal government equal to the
amount of sales tax you would spend on the basic
necessities of life for that month.

The problem is that people cannot both get an increase in their after-tax income and at the same time have prices fall once embedded taxes are removed. It is unclear whether FairTax supporters are genuinely ignorant of
this fact or dishonestly implying that both will happen so they can build support for their plan.

220 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:15:17pm

re: #205 jamesfirecat

I don't want to give Marxism another at bat I was suggesting look at what he sees as a problem, if it is a problem, then lets try and find a new solution since his clearly doesn't work. If its not a problem then lets forget about it.

The study of history is a powerful antidote to contemporary arrogance. It is humbling to discover how many of our glib assumptions, which seem to us novel and plausible, have been tested before, not once but many times and in innumerable guises; and discovered to be, at great human cost, wholly false.
-- Paul Johnson

221 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:15:25pm

re: #213 windsword

But if you're anti-government, why run for public office?

They're not anti-government. They're "pro-maniuplate the system".

222 Lidane  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:16:30pm

re: #213 windsword

Can someone even explain why there ARE Republican truthers running for office?

Because they're all Paulians/Teabaggers who have embraced that level of loony wholesale since November 2008. That's why.

Don't try to understand it. Just realize that it's a strain of crazy that is much more prominent now thanks to the likes of Alex Jones and Ron Paul becoming more mainstream.

223 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:16:41pm

re: #206 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

There, their, and they're always kick my ass when I'm posting. I propose a new spelling "thayre" which changes meaning based on the context of the sentence, like the word wind, for example.

They kick everyone's ass at times if we're not paying attention. Even Cato had to do a PIMF on that a couple times that I know of.

Nice try on the thay're proposal, but go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200. Take these worksheets with you.

224 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:17:21pm

re: #213 windsword

*Sigh*, I just wish I could get inside the heads of these people. Seriously, someone help me out.

No, you don't - at least not without a hazmat suit. There's no accounting for teh crazy.

225 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:17:38pm

re: #213 windsword


*Sigh*, I just wish I could get inside the heads of these people. Seriously, someone help me out.


Is it safe to assume you've tried reason?
...If you have then ...You'll need a can opener!
Remember to sterilize....
//
How's everyone today?
I've been ...ah...away for a while!
....Shitty Lawyer !///

226 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:18:02pm

re: #210 Obdicut

It'd also tax huge numbers of services that currently are untaxed, and create an instant black market-- just as we're seeing a bigger and bigger black market for cigarettes due to the taxes on them.

That would be a nightmare. The service provider would effectively become the tax collector (much like retail) and then add that to their invoice. So your 1000 dollar invoice then becomes 1230 dollars. Realistically it would have to be far less than 23 percent. Maybe 10 percent would work.

227 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:18:04pm

re: #222 Lidane

Because they're all Paulians/Teabaggers who have embraced that level of loony wholesale since November 2008. That's why.

Don't try to understand it. Just realize that it's a strain of crazy that is much more prominent now thanks to the Internet.likes of Alex Jones and Ron Paul becoming more mainstream.

228 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:18:16pm

re: #214 Mosh

You still fail to acknowledge that private property, the price system, and supply and demand are what drives the economy. Marx's critique of the basic tenants of capitalism was debunked time and time again in the 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries.

Then lets forget about it and move on.

I haven't bothered to read Marx but it would seem obvious that for him to be halfway coherent he'd need to do two different things.

1) Identify a problem.

2) Propose a solution.


I know for a fact there are situations where people can get 1 right and 2 wrong, like when we noticed that people were dropping dead of the Black Plague and blamed it on curses and evil spirits instead of rats.

If Marx got 1 and 2 wrong then lI see no reason to defend any part of his work so lets and move onto talking about something else.

Maybe we could try a flat tax in just one state and see how it goes?

229 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:18:26pm

re: #219 Obdicut

Money grows on trees don't you know. Or it comes out of the wazoo.

230 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:18:54pm

re: #213 windsword

Can someone even explain why there ARE Republican truthers running for office? I always thought there were four major motivations for believing it.

1. Anti-Americanism/ Anti-Bushism. This is the clearly more left-wing motivation.
2. Absolution of Muslims. Again, not exactly a Republican sentiment, and more prevalent in the Middle East than the US anyways.
3. Pinning it on Israel. Equally unlikely.
4. Anti-government. Probably the primary motivation among truther Republicans. But if you're anti-government, why run for public office?

*Sigh*, I just wish I could get inside the heads of these people. Seriously, someone help me out.

1) The Birch Society, Ron Paul, anti-government militias and the tea Parties are plenty anti-American. Don't be fooled by the patriotic rhetoric.
2) The Libertarians are against American foreign policy and fighting foriegn wars.
3) The people who believe in the Bildergerg conspiracies (Glenn Beck, Alex Jones, etc), "end the Fed" (Ron Paul) think that Jewish bankers secretly rule the world and want to establish a global socialist government.
4) Ron Paul, and Michelle Bachman have managed to get away with being part of the government yet being opposed to it.

231 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:19:37pm
No you claimed to have the definition of Evil as it pertained to the issue of Property rights. I personally enjoy my property rights, but I certainly don't believe that someone who has a different belief about them is Evil, wrong IMHO, but evil? I don't buy it.

sooo...you got a positive example of hard-core communism?

232 Bubblehead II  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:19:57pm
233 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:19:58pm

But why, windsagio?

234 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:20:25pm

re: #230 Killgore Trout

1) The Birch Society, Ron Paul, anti-government militias and the tea Parties are plenty anti-American. Don't be fooled by the patriotic rhetoric.
2) The Libertarians are against American foreign policy and fighting foriegn wars.
3) The people who believe in the Bildergerg conspiracies (Glenn Beck, Alex Jones, etc), "end the Fed" (Ron Paul) think that Jewish bankers secretly rule the world and want to establish a global socialist government.
4) Ron Paul, and Michelle Bachman have managed to get away with being part of the government yet being opposed to it.

Ron Paul's been "on the dole" since 1962. Or at least government payroll. That's a hoot.

235 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:20:30pm

re: #228 jamesfirecat

You've never read Marx???!!!

236 Kragar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:21:00pm

re: #223 Silvergirl

SILENCE!

Kragaristan's official dictionary now lists thayre as the only version of the word. Anyone using the old spelling within the confines of Kragaristan will be flogged.

237 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:21:11pm

re: #233 Silvergirl

Huh?

238 subsailor68  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:21:35pm

re: #231 Aceofwhat?

sooo...you got a positive example of hard-core communism?

Sure!

Stalin
Mao
Pol Pot
Castro

Oops.

This isn't working out for me.

Never mind.

239 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:21:52pm

re: #234 Gus 802

Ron Paul's been "on the dole" since 1962. Or at least government payroll. That's a hoot.

That also reminds me that Glenn Beck as Ron Paul on all the time and heaps plenty of praise on him yet Ron Paul has shown more public support for the 9-11 truth movement than Medina.

240 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:21:56pm

re: #235 MandyManners

You've never read Marx???!!!

Why bother? Marx is in the air students breathe nowadays.

241 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:22:16pm

re: #223 Silvergirl

They kick everyone's ass at times if we're not paying attention. Even Cato had to do a PIMF on that a couple times that I know of.

Nice try on the thay're proposal, but go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200. Take these worksheets with you.

Oh deer. Now yore going to say Wii halve to reed every wan of hour posts right before its cent?

242 Lidane  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:22:33pm

re: #227 MandyManners

Fair point. The internet has made what used to be small pockets of isolated crazy people much more organized.However, the point about Alex Jones and Ron Paul becoming more mainstream still stands.

It doesn't help anyone when those two nutjobs are given any sort of credibility, especially Jones. I've had to suffer that man's idiocy for *years* thanks to his being here in Austin for so long, and now that people elsewhere are linking to him and taking his ideas seriously, it's enough to drive a person to drink, or at least slam their head into a brick wall so that the world makes sense. =P

243 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:22:42pm

re: #237 MandyManners

Huh?

I've been downdinged for trying to be helpful to jamesfirecat, who I happen to enjoy reading. I'm not sure of the motivation of windsagio, so I asked.

244 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:23:16pm

re: #228 jamesfirecat

Maybe we could try a flat tax in just one state and see how it goes?

m

Over 20 countries have a flat tax system.

You know what country also has a flat tax, Iraq, or as the American left calls it "the 51st State" or "Oil Colony #2".

245 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:23:16pm

re: #239 Killgore Trout

That also reminds me that Glenn Beck as Ron Paul on all the time and heaps plenty of praise on him yet Ron Paul has shown more public support for the 9-11 truth movement than Medina.

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding! Exactly. From the sound of things Medina isn't much different than Ron Paul. What a hypocrite.

246 Kragar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:23:53pm

re: #238 subsailor68

Sure!

Stalin
Mao
Pol Pot
Castro

Oops.

This isn't working out for me.

Never mind.

On the bright side, we could get them together and ask them about British Football teams.

247 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:24:08pm

re: #240 The Sanity Inspector

Why bother? Marx is in the air students breathe nowadays.

I thought that was marijuana.

248 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:24:39pm

re: #233 Silvergirl

sorry; locked up as I was about to respond.

I'm just not a big fan of bugging people on spelling issues.

Especially the way certain people were using your specific example there yesterday :p


/also why stress a single -? It doesn't really matter :P

249 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:24:41pm

re: #236 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

SILENCE!

Kragaristan's official dictionary now lists thayre as the only version of the word. Anyone using the old spelling within the confines of Kragaristan will be flogged.

So, there.

250 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:25:04pm

re: #26 Girth

hmm...

Exactly. Next she should be asked to reconcile those two almost simultaneous comments.

251 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:25:30pm

re: #235 MandyManners

You've never read Marx???!!!

Like I said I'm one of those "catnip smoking liberals", I grew up in the 90's in an upper middle class just about perfect American Nuclear Family (Dad is a chemist, mom was stay at home till we started going to school and then she slowly branched out from simply working as a volunteer at my elementary school's library but is now an IT specialist at a high school, TV, SNES, N64, Gamecube, everyone in my family has their own computer, and my brother has both a laptop and a desktop either of which is powerful enough to run Left 4 Dead, the only "revolution" I care about is my newest Nintendo console.

Materialism comes as part of the standard package and with that a distrust for anyone taking our shiney toys away....

252 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:25:32pm

re: #242 Lidane

Fair point. The internet has made what used to be small pockets of isolated crazy people much more organized.However, the point about Alex Jones and Ron Paul becoming more mainstream still stands.

It doesn't help anyone when those two nutjobs are given any sort of credibility, especially Jones. I've had to suffer that man's idiocy for *years* thanks to his being here in Austin for so long, and now that people elsewhere are linking to him and taking his ideas seriously, it's enough to drive a person to drink, or at least slam their head into a brick wall so that the world makes sense. =P

I'd start asking people which ideas of his he got from David Icke.

253 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:25:54pm

re: #243 Silvergirl

I've been downdinged for trying to be helpful to jamesfirecat, who I happen to enjoy reading. I'm not sure of the motivation of windsagio, so I asked.

Maybe he likes you and it's one of those playground crushes where you annoy the girl you like...

254 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:26:01pm

re: #243 Silvergirl

I've been downdinged for trying to be helpful to jamesfirecat, who I happen to enjoy reading. I'm not sure of the motivation of windsagio, so I asked.

I just un-did the ding.

255 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:26:05pm

re: #213 windsword

*Sigh*, I just wish I could get inside the heads of these people. Seriously, someone help me out.

Here, I think this might clear things up:
No. If he wanted to break the ring no, please I get a month. They did it. Come on. (A name, not clear) cut me off and says you are not to be the beneficiary of this will. Is that right? I will be checked and double-checked and please pull for me. Will you pull? How many good ones and how many bad ones? Please I had nothing with him he was a cowboy in one of the seven days a week fight. No business; no hangout; no friends; nothing; just what you pick up and what you need. I don't know who shot me. Don't put anyone near this check~ you might have -please do it for me. Let me get up. heh? In the olden days they waited and they waited. Please give me a shot. It is from the factory. Sure, that is a bad. Well, oh good ahead that happens for trying. I don't want harmony. I want harmony. Oh, mamma, mamma! Who give it to him? Who give it to him? Let me in the district -fire-factory that he was nowhere near. It smoldered No, no. There are only ten of us and there ten million fighting somewhere of you, so get your onions up and we will throw up the truce flag. Oh, please let me up. Please shift me. Police are here. Communistic...strike...baloney...honestly this is a habit I get; sometimes I give it and sometimes I don't. Oh, I am all in. That settles it. Are you sure? Please let me get in and eat. Let him harass himself to you and then bother you. Please don't ask me to go there. I don't want to. I still don't want him in the path. It is no use to stage a riot. The sidewalk was in trouble and the bears were in trouble and I broke it up. Please put me in that room. Please keep him in control. My gilt edged stuff and those dirty rats have tuned in. Please mother, don't tear, don't rip; that is something that shouldn't be spoken about. Please get me up, my friends. Please, look out. The shooting is a bit wild, and that kind of shooting saved a man's life. No payrolls. No wells. No coupons. That would be entirely out. Pardon me, I forgot I am plaintiff and not defendant. Look out. Look out for him. Please. He owed me money; he owes everyone money. Why can't he just pullout and give me control? Please, mother, you pick me up now. Please, you know me. No. Don't you scare me. My friends and I think I do a better job. Police are looking for you allover. Be instrumental in letting us know. They are English-men and they are a type I don't know who is best, they or us. Oh, sir, get the doll a roofing. You can play jacks and girls do that with a soft ball and do tricks with it. I take all events into consideration. No. No. And it is no. It is confused and its says no. A boy has never wept nor dashed a thousand kim. Did you hear me?

256 subsailor68  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:26:37pm

re: #247 MandyManners

I thought that was marijuana.

It's actually spelled Marxijuana. It's the genesis of the phrase "hey dude, don't bogart that joint man!"

"To each according to his needs, from each as much of his stash as needed to supply the whole dorm."

257 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:27:14pm

re: #253 Aceofwhat?

Maybe he likes you and it's one of those playground crushes where you annoy the girl you like...

Is he gonna' dip her pig-tail into the ink pot next?

258 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:27:33pm

I'm outty! I feel like some rubio polio, a banana dacharie, and a bistec embenada.

See y'all later.

259 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:28:08pm

re: #244 Mosh

m

Over 20 countries have a flat tax system.

You know what country also has a flat tax, Iraq, or as the American left calls it "the 51st State" or "Oil Colony #2".

True, but by the same token a lot of other countries have government run Healthcare, does that mean we should bring that here wholesale also?

260 cliffster  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:28:12pm

re: #255 Guanxi88

just, wow

261 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:28:26pm

re: #251 jamesfirecat

Like I said I'm one of those "catnip smoking liberals", I grew up in the 90's in an upper middle class just about perfect American Nuclear Family (Dad is a chemist, mom was stay at home till we started going to school and then she slowly branched out from simply working as a volunteer at my elementary school's library but is now an IT specialist at a high school, TV, SNES, N64, Gamecube, everyone in my family has their own computer, and my brother has both a laptop and a desktop either of which is powerful enough to run Left 4 Dead, the only "revolution" I care about is my newest Nintendo console.

Materialism comes as part of the standard package and with that a distrust for anyone taking our shiney toys away...

Historically, the only ones that get to keep their "shiny toys" in communist systems have been the ruling class. This has been consistent throughout history and it includes the USSR, China, North Korea, Vietnam, etc.

They take more than shiny toys away. They also tell you were to work, how you ill be educated, where you will live, and so on.

262 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:28:46pm

re: #257 MandyManners

some time I should show you guys what I do when I want to annoy someone ;)

This, amazingly, is just my natural state.


Not now tho, I have to go to a (*$#&&$(*#@ staff meeting.

263 Vambo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:28:49pm

re: #193 The Sanity Inspector

There are sky-wards of 70 million people dead because of Marxism. How many more at-bats do you want to give him?

whatever. There are sky-wards of __ million people dead because of ___. How many more at-bats do you want to give __?

264 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:28:52pm

re: #260 cliffster

just, wow

Transcript of the last words of Dutch Schultz. Weird stuff.

265 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:28:56pm

re: #259 jamesfirecat

yes it does!!!

266 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:28:57pm

re: #228 jamesfirecat


I haven't bothered to read Marx

How about a heaping helping of Shut The Fuck Up until you're 30?

267 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:28:57pm

re: #257 MandyManners

Is he gonna' dip her pig-tail into the ink pot next?

well...i actually have an antique ink pot on my desk...i have a thing for fountain pens. so that can be arranged/

268 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:29:14pm

re: #261 Gus 802

Ill = will. Oops.

269 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:29:21pm

re: #235 MandyManners

You've never read Marx???!!!

I have read every movie and play script Groucho ever was in!!

( ,,, oh ,, not THAT Marx ,, nevahmind!!)

270 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:29:24pm

re: #251 jamesfirecat

Like I said I'm one of those "catnip smoking liberals", I grew up in the 90's in an upper middle class just about perfect American Nuclear Family (Dad is a chemist, mom was stay at home till we started going to school and then she slowly branched out from simply working as a volunteer at my elementary school's library but is now an IT specialist at a high school, TV, SNES, N64, Gamecube, everyone in my family has their own computer, and my brother has both a laptop and a desktop either of which is powerful enough to run Left 4 Dead, the only "revolution" I care about is my newest Nintendo console.

Materialism comes as part of the standard package and with that a distrust for anyone taking our shiney toys away...

Marx would take away your toys.

There is no excuse to not read it now.

271 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:30:06pm

re: #263 Vambo

whatever. There are sky-wards of __ million people dead because of ___. How many more at-bats do you want to give __?

You know what doesn't fit into that blank? Capitalism.

272 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:30:15pm

re: #255 Guanxi88

That's some really bad brown acid.

273 SixDegrees  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:30:19pm

re: #218 trendsurfer

IIRC, a Democratic Congress and President repealed the luxury tax due to its detrimental effect on the sale of luxury goods and thus the industry which produced them. Even the wealthy are deterred by price.

The effect on the boating industry here in Michigan was catastrophic. The tax created a large spike in unemployment and drove several manufacturers completely out of business.

None of these companies produced hundred foot yachts. The tax applied to boats selling for over $100,000, and the companies which produced them also produced much smaller models aimed squarely at the middle class market.

There was also a spillover effect onto other industries, leading to more unemployment and closures among businesses selling boat-related hardware, fittings and services.

The tax was ultimately repealed because it was a nightmarish economic wrecking ball that wound up slamming the middle class.

None of this deterred the wealthy from purchasing boats. What it did, however, was send a lot of them to Canada or other offshore locations to make their purchases exempt from the tax, while gutting hundreds of small domestic manufacturers.

274 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:30:31pm

re: #261 Gus 802

Historically, the only ones that get to keep their "shiny toys" in communist systems have been the ruling class. This has been consistent throughout history and it includes the USSR, China, North Korea, Vietnam, etc.

They take more than shiny toys away. They also tell you were to work, how you ill be educated, where you will live, and so on.

And that's why I've never read Marx.

275 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:30:40pm

re: #256 subsailor68

It's actually spelled Marxijuana. It's the genesis of the phrase "hey dude, don't bogart that joint man!"

"To each according to his needs, from each as much of his stash as needed to supply the whole dorm."

Who keeps the Cheetos?

276 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:30:48pm

re: #248 windsagio

sorry; locked up as I was about to respond.

I'm just not a big fan of bugging people on spelling issues.

Especially the way certain people were using your specific example there yesterday :p

/also why stress a single -? It doesn't really matter :P

Many of us make multiple mistakes in our posting. In the post is question, it struck me that I might actually do some good. I'm not ashamed to learn things about grammar or spelling to help me in life. I was an adult before someone pointed out that I was using the "you and I" thing incorrectly sometimes. I thought it was always "Windsagio and I" even in cases where it should be "Windsagio and me."

I don't know what you mean here:

Especially the way certain people were using your specific example there yesterday :p

Downdings and updings? Your word is stress. My word is understand.

277 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:30:51pm

re: #259 jamesfirecat

True, but by the same token a lot of other countries have government run Healthcare, does that mean we should bring that here wholesale also?

Strawman

You can adopt A policy of another country without having to adopt ALL policies of another country

278 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:30:52pm

re: #193 The Sanity Inspector

There are sky-wards of 70 million people dead because of Marxism. How many more at-bats do you want to give him?

Because of Leninism and Maoism. All Marx is good for is literary criticism.

Seriously.

Marx is given way way way too much credit for what later came to be known as "Communism."

I took a class in Marx as a philosophy major and really don't want to get into this discussion because Marx has become such a caricature that it's hard to view him in the context of Hegel, etc, where he belongs.

279 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:31:06pm

re: #273 SixDegrees

like i said before. get the government the F@#$ out of the way!

280 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:31:20pm

re: #247 MandyManners

I thought that was marijuana.

The one's helpful to maximize the influence of the other.

281 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:31:21pm

re: #259 jamesfirecat

True, but by the same token a lot of other countries have government run Healthcare, does that mean we should bring that here wholesale also?

What? Bait and switch again James!

You said sarcastically "maybe we should implement a flat tax system to solve our problems".

I was pointing out to you that flat tax has been tried and has had mixed results. Check the link.

Now you're switching to health care. You are so busy criticizing supposed Republican hypocrisy that you cannot see your own fallacious logic.

282 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:31:33pm

re: #262 windsagio

some time I should show you guys what I do when I want to annoy someone ;)

This, amazingly, is just my natural state.


Not now tho, I have to go to a (*$#&&$(*#@ staff meeting.

Gonna' annoy them?

283 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:31:37pm

re: #275 MandyManners

Who keeps the Cheetos?

You do.

(who says i don't learn good?)

284 simoom  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:31:48pm

re: #136 Charles

I recall Mike Huckabee name dropping David Barton, when he was recently interviewing Liberty Counsel's Mat Staver about Texas school books:

Huckabee: Our mutual friend David Barton is one of the folks who has been very involved in the textbook issues there for a long time ...
285 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:31:59pm

re: #277 sattv4u2

Strawman

You can adopt A policy of another country without having to adopt ALL policies of another country

Well his last argument to me read as "We should do this because other countries do it" and was no more well founded than that.

Perhaps there was hidden depth to it that I missed....

286 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:32:01pm

re: #247 MandyManners

I thought that was marijuana.

While playing with homophones (look it up), I wonder if Medina has ever wondered how her name sound exactly like Medinah?

287 windsagio  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:32:11pm

re: #282 MandyManners

I wish I could > They're certainly annoying me!


*poof*

288 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:32:17pm

re: #258 Mosh

Maybe when you come back you can answer the critique of the 'Fair' Tax by Bartlett, and explain whether or not you agree that it would increase the tax burden on the middle class.

289 Vambo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:32:20pm

re: #271 Aceofwhat?

You know what doesn't fit into that blank? Capitalism.

of course it does.

290 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:32:29pm

Marxism is not a direct result of Marijuana.

Let's stop the h8t, people.

291 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:32:32pm

re: #266 Alouette

How about a heaping helping of Shut The Fuck Up until you're 30?

I came out of it before I was 30.

292 sattv4u2  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:32:33pm

re: #273 SixDegrees

The effect on the boating industry here in Michigan was catastrophic

Same in Massachusetts during the Dukakis governorship

293 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:33:00pm

re: #286 Naso Tang

I believe it comes from the original, via Moorish Spain.

294 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:33:31pm

re: #281 Mosh

What? Bait and switch again James!

You said sarcastically "maybe we should implement a flat tax system to solve our problems".

I was pointing out to you that flat tax has been tried and has had mixed results. Check the link.

Now you're switching to health care. You are so busy criticizing supposed Republican hypocrisy that you cannot see your own fallacious logic.

I was not saying it sarcastically, I was saying that we should try it in one state to see how it works here in America.

Just because an idea works in some other country, be it flat tax or healthcare, doesn't mean we should instantly import it wholesale hear.

295 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:33:36pm

re: #289 Vambo

of course it does.

oh. sorry. misread the tone of the post. mea culpa.

296 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:33:40pm

Funky Cold Medina.

297 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:33:47pm

re: #294 jamesfirecat

I was not saying it sarcastically, I was saying that we should try it in one state to see how it works here in America.

Just because an idea works in some other country, be it flat tax or healthcare, doesn't mean we should instantly import it wholesale hear.

And there I go again!

import it wholesale HERE!

298 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:33:51pm

re: #267 Aceofwhat?

well...i actually have an antique ink pot on my desk...i have a thing for fountain pens. so that can be arranged/

Shiny toys, comrade.

299 cliffster  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:33:52pm

re: #278 Conservative Moonbat

I took a class in Marx as a philosophy major and really don't want to get into this discussion because Marx has become such a caricature that it's hard to view him in the context of Hegel, etc, where he belongs.

Or the context of anti-Hegel, as it were.

300 Vambo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:34:14pm

re: #271 Aceofwhat?

You know what doesn't fit into that blank? Capitalism.

off the top of my head.
- the US health care system
- pre-union labor conditions
- lead paint in children's toys and other negligence from third world manufacters

301 tradewind  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:34:19pm

re: #232 Bubblehead II

Well dang! There's a cabinet-level position in DC with her name on it!

302 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:34:30pm

re: #273 SixDegrees

Those poor cigar rollers in Tampa are not happy.

303 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:34:32pm

re: #291 MandyManners

I came out of it before I was 30.

Maybe I should have said "until he is potty trained"

304 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:34:46pm

re: #273 SixDegrees

The effect on the boating industry here in Michigan was catastrophic. The tax created a large spike in unemployment and drove several manufacturers completely out of business.

None of these companies produced hundred foot yachts. The tax applied to boats selling for over $100,000, and the companies which produced them also produced much smaller models aimed squarely at the middle class market.

There was also a spillover effect onto other industries, leading to more unemployment and closures among businesses selling boat-related hardware, fittings and services.

The tax was ultimately repealed because it was a nightmarish economic wrecking ball that wound up slamming the middle class.

None of this deterred the wealthy from purchasing boats. What it did, however, was send a lot of them to Canada or other offshore locations to make their purchases exempt from the tax, while gutting hundreds of small domestic manufacturers.

A stellar example of untintended consequences.

305 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:35:26pm

re: #293 jaunte

I believe it comes from the original, via Moorish Spain.

Before or after naming the birthplace of Mohammed?

306 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:35:30pm

re: #274 jamesfirecat

And that's why I've never read Marx.

So quit trying to explain his theories!

307 SixDegrees  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:35:37pm

re: #302 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Those poor cigar rollers in Tampa are not happy.

?

308 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:35:47pm

re: #305 Naso Tang

?

309 tradewind  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:35:58pm

re: #286 Naso Tang

I doubt she'd have to ' look it up '.

310 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:36:12pm

Speaking of communism, People's World (successor to the Daily Worker) has weighed in on the tea parties. To nobody's surprise, the commie paper of record doesn't like them:
The tea party movement’s backward march

After watching the Nashville convention of the tea party movement, it is clear that they continue to be a racist, red-baiting movement against health care reform, jobs for all, an end to war, and economic and social justice.

They are out to bring down Barack Obama because they see him as a force for progressive change and they are against progressive change. They are a movement to take our country back to the policies of Reagan, Bush or worse.

As the conference showed, they have few people of color in their ranks. That is because, while they say they are "color blind," they are against any measures for racial equality and inclusion.

I can't really blame the tools this time: It would take a pretty obtuse Red to pass up an opportunity like this. I can just imagine some commie leader paraphrasing Churchill to the inner circle, "If the tea parties didn't exist, it would be necessary for us to invent them."

The comments are a hoot too. The rank and file workers and peasants bitterly condemn the President as "Obomba" for his failure to bug out in Iraq and Afghanistan, a level of invective and hatred that would warm the cockles of tea party hearts, if any. The Paulian isolationist mob in particular would be in full agreement.

311 Mosh  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:36:15pm

re: #285 jamesfirecat

Seriously, shut up.

You sarcastically said "Maybe we could try a flat tax in just one state and see how it goes?".

Then I pointed out to you that it has been tried in over 20 countries and has had mixed results.

Stop strawmanning me and take things in context.

312 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:36:23pm

re: #280 The Sanity Inspector

The one's helpful to maximize the influence of the other.

Yeah, it's easier to see unicorns and rainbows when you're stoned.

313 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:36:36pm

re: #228 jamesfirecat

Then lets forget about it and move on.

I haven't bothered to read Marx but it would seem obvious that for him to be halfway coherent he'd need to do two different things.

1) Identify a problem.

2) Propose a solution.

He would say it's impossible to propose a solution, rather, one would arise out of historical necessity. The solution to the problem would be unique to the historical conditions of a given state. Trying to impose Maoism in Vietnam or Leninism in Poland would therefore be ludicrous. But they did it anyway.

314 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:36:41pm

re: #300 Vambo

off the top of my head.
- the US health care system
- pre-union labor conditions
- lead paint in children's toys and other negligence from third world manufacters

I want to make sure i'm pickin up what you're layin down...you're putting those at the feet of capitalism?

315 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:36:46pm

re: #307 SixDegrees

From this morning...Cannadian Club Ackbar posted about the tobacco tax that is killing the cigar industry. I'll find it.

316 cliffster  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:36:47pm

re: #290 Ben Hur

Marxism is not a direct result of Marijuana.

Let's stop the h8t, people.

Communism is the THC of the masses

317 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:37:22pm

re: #290 Ben Hur

Marxism is not a direct result of Marijuana.

Let's stop the h8t, people.

Shut up and pass that bong.

318 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:37:29pm

re: #298 MandyManners

Shiny toys, comrade.

Just keep them away from my precious bodily fluids...

319 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:37:35pm

re: #300 Vambo

We've never had unrestrained capitalism, really; it's an economic system, not a governmental one. So you can't really lay any deaths at its feet. Capitalism does not claim to be a governmental system.

Some people claim it's all we need, but they're called anarcho-capitalists for a reason.

320 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:37:54pm

re: #316 cliffster

Communism is the THC of the masses

puff puff GIVE!

321 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:38:26pm

re: #263 Vambo

whatever. There are sky-wards of __ million people dead because of ___. How many more at-bats do you want to give __?

Seventy million dead in the span of just three-quarters of a century. That rates more than a shrug and a "whatever", among most people.

322 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:38:26pm

re: #315 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Here....

323 Vambo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:39:03pm

re: #310 Shiplord Kirel

Speaking of communism, People's World (successor to the Daily Worker) has weighed in on the tea parties. To nobody's surprise, the commie paper of record doesn't like them:
The tea party movement’s backward march

I can't really blame the tools this time: It would take a pretty obtuse Red to pass up an opportunity like this. I can just imagine some commie leader paraphrasing Churchill to the inner circle, "If the tea parties didn't exist, it would be necessary for us to invent them."

The comments are a hoot too. The rank and file workers and peasants bitterly condemn the President as "Obomba" for his failure to bug out in Iraq and Afghanistan, a level of invective and hatred that would warm the cockles of tea party hearts, if any. The Paulian isolationist mob in particular would be in full agreement.

that's awfully bitchy. Mad about their swipe at Reagan, are is this just general frothy-mouthed socialist/underclass hatred?

324 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:39:38pm

re: #319 Obdicut

We've never had unrestrained capitalism, really; it's an economic system, not a governmental one. So you can't really lay any deaths at its feet. Capitalism does not claim to be a governmental system.

Some people claim it's all we need, but they're called anarcho-capitalists for a reason.

"Anarcho-capitalists" applies to the Mises site you linked. Maybe you knew that....

325 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:39:44pm

re: #306 MandyManners

So quit trying to explain his theories!

To my knowledge I was never trying to explain his theories.

To me Mosh seemed to be saying that because Marx's solution to the problem of Capitalism failed (and it did disastrously at that) by default Marx must not have been able to be notice a real problem.

Even without having read Marx this seemed as silly to me as saying if we notice someone is sick and we try leeches on them and it only makes things worse then they must have not been sick in the first place.

I was what I was trying (and evidently failing) to do was point out that diagnosis and solution are two different things.

Just because Marx got one wrong doesn't mean he doubtlessly got the other wrong, but it no more means that he got the other right either.

The course of history seems to have born out that he got both wrong so lets move on and refer to him now only as an example of "what not to do".

326 cliffster  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:40:04pm

re: #319 Obdicut

We've never had unrestrained capitalism, really; it's an economic system, not a governmental one. So you can't really lay any deaths at its feet. Capitalism does not claim to be a governmental system.

Some people claim it's all we need, but they're called anarcho-capitalists for a reason.

"We need to encourage countries to move toward Democracy, and away from Communism!"

Um, actually, er - oh never mind.

327 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:40:24pm

re: #317 MandyManners

Shut up and pass that bong.

Bongs are so provincial.

328 SixDegrees  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:41:03pm

re: #315 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

From this morning...Cannadian Club Ackbar posted about the tobacco tax that is killing the cigar industry. I'll find it.

OK. That's enough to give me the sense of it.

Yes, the cigar rollers ought to take note.

329 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:41:41pm

re: #296 Ben Hur

Funky Cold Medina.

You rang?


330 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:42:05pm

re: #311 Mosh

Seriously, shut up.

You sarcastically said "Maybe we could try a flat tax in just one state and see how it goes?".

Then I pointed out to you that it has been tried in over 20 countries and has had mixed results.

Stop strawmanning me and take things in context.

Okay then, it's had mixed results?

What have been the good results, what have been the bad ones?

331 SixDegrees  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:42:09pm

I need citrus. BBIAB.

332 Vambo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:42:41pm

re: #319 Obdicut

We've never had unrestrained capitalism, really; it's an economic system, not a governmental one. So you can't really lay any deaths at its feet. Capitalism does not claim to be a governmental system.

yeah, yeah. Not sure why Aceofwhat tried to put "capitalism" in there anyway.

* statement retract - in process
...processing
...operation complete. statement retracted.

333 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:43:00pm

re: #325 jamesfirecat

Just because Marx got one wrong doesn't mean he doubtlessly got the other wrong, but it no more means that he got the other right either.

Unless one were to grossly misunderstand the interdependency of the different elements of his little manifesto. Then your statement would be untrue.

334 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:43:15pm

re: #324 wrenchwench

I do. I don't like like Mises at all, and I think the Austrian economics are bullshit. To use a different example than Marx: I think Thor Heyrdahl's theories of migration are absurd, but his emphasis on physical anthropology and archaeology re-inspired the field and brought about a new era in migration studies. He was wrong, but he asked the right questions.

The 'Fair' Tax is a fundamentally self-contradictory idea, more of a marketing campaign than an actual economic idea. Bartlett's critique is superior, which I linked above, and it points out that one of the consequences of the 'Fair' Tax would be recreating the conditions that lead to the Great Depression. Talk about unintended consequences!

335 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:43:43pm

re: #325 jamesfirecat

[Link: www.marxists.org...]

READ.

336 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:44:04pm

mah haid sploded

BBL.

337 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:44:17pm

re: #322 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Here...

More a result of smoking bans than tobacco taxes: "Sales have been hurt by the spread of indoor smoking bans, which have forced people to go outside to smoke. " - caption for the photo with story.

Several things conspired to hurt Altadis' sales, McKenzie said, including the recession and the growth of indoor smoking bans. The bans have especially hurt sales in cold-weather states, where it's impractical to smoke a cigar outdoors in the winter, he said.

However, the company attributed much of its trouble to the State Children's Health Insurance Program, or SCHIP, a federal program that provides health insurance to low-income children. It is funded, in part, by a new federal tax on cigars and cigarettes. McKenzie couldn't say how much sales of Hav-A-Tampa cigars had fallen off, but the numbers have dropped significantly, he said.

So they blame the kids...it's always the kids' fault./

The bottom line is people are smoking fewer cigars. Paying an extra 40 cents on a $12 cigar isn't going to affect that much.

338 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:44:32pm

re: #332 Vambo

yeah, yeah. Not sure why Aceofwhat tried to put "capitalism" in there anyway.

* statement retract - in process
...processing
...operation complete. statement retracted.

I may have grossly misunderstood where you were going. So i'll join you in retraction.

339 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:45:31pm

re: #333 Aceofwhat?

James has admitted that he hasn't read Marx.

James, you might not want to talk about things before reading them. It's kind of a waste of the time of others. Marx is accessible, though frankly not that great a writer. I don't mean to be mean, but when you're trying to talk about Marx in the abstract without having read him, it's a WTF moment for me.

340 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:46:00pm

re: #308 jaunte

?

OK. I made a connection that seemed odd to me at first, but it seems that your prior response is spot on. It was an early Arabic name for "town". I retract the insinuation.

341 Lidane  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:46:11pm

re: #324 wrenchwench

"Anarcho-capitalists" applies to the Mises site you linked. Maybe you knew that...

Oh, god. The Mises people drive me nuts.

I've encountered a few anarcho-capitalists online and have had political discussions with them, but it's like talking to a brick wall. Having to explain why privatizing the courts, all emergency services, and the police is a *bad* thing is both tedious and irritating. And their hatred for Lincoln is mind-boggling. I never knew anyone thought he was the WORST PRESIDENT EVER OMG until I started talking to those people. I just don't understand it.

342 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:46:14pm

re: #337 darthstar

So they blame the kids...it's always the kids' fault./

The bottom line is people are smoking fewer cigars. Paying an extra 40 cents on a $12 cigar isn't going to affect that much.

Massachusetts Governor Calls for Huge Cigar Tax

Faced with a budget shortfall of nearly $3 billion, Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick has proposed raising the excise tax on cigars to 110 percent, a move one tobacconist believes would bankrupt the state's cigar business.

According to administration officials, a $2 cigar that costs $2.76 now would jump to $4.46 if the new tax takes effect.

That's a mighty steep jump.

343 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:47:10pm

re: #339 Obdicut

Upding for being so civil about it.

344 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:47:15pm

re: #323 Vambo

that's awfully bitchy. Mad about their swipe at Reagan, are is this just general frothy-mouthed socialist/underclass hatred?

How is it "bitchy?" Can you explain these comments (not questions)? Are you asserting that I am part of the "socialist/underclass" or that I hate them because of what I have said about their self-appointed representatives, the CPUSA?

345 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:48:10pm

re: #340 Naso Tang

That's ok, I even missed the insinuation!
I just meant to say that Medina's name is likely taken from one of the Texas Medinas named after the Spanish Medinas that were named after the Arabian peninsula original.

346 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:49:07pm

re: #337 darthstar

You forgot this part...

Altadis tried to keep the plant open by closing it for a week or two at a time and furloughing workers. Eventually, though, the company couldn't cope with a steep drop in consumer demand, brought on by the recession and a large new tax on tobacco products, McKenzie said.

Convenient...

347 Petero1818  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:49:39pm

re: #211 MandyManners

Where did I say that anyone is evil?

That the idea, not the person was evil. Excuse me. Same point.

348 Achilles Tang  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:49:41pm

re: #319 Obdicut

We've never had unrestrained capitalism, really; it's an economic system, not a governmental one. So you can't really lay any deaths at its feet. Capitalism does not claim to be a governmental system.

Some people claim it's all we need, but they're called anarcho-capitalists for a reason.

Always something new to learn. I always thought they were called Libertarians.

349 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:50:09pm

re: #331 SixDegrees

I need citrus. BBIAB.

Must have citrus. Bring on the tangerines, grapefruit, and limes!

One of the funniest sign-offs I've seen. Unless there's a hidden meaning. Is this code?

350 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:50:21pm

Tobacco taxes piss me off. I;m just going to go ahead and say that right here, right now. And alcohol taxes, too, as I think of it.

These two - tobacco and alcohol - while causing problems for some users, are nonetheless traditional solaces and comforts to the people. The working man as much as the high-powered executive could relax and meditate over his evening cigar, even as the young go-getter, every bit as much as the 3rd shift taxi-driver, could rely on a cigarette to keep him going and ward off the fatigue of his long hours.

And booze? Don't even get me started on it. Bad for you? Well, it's not as healthful as, say, an apple or a whole-grain waffle, but it's a lot cheaper and less addictive than, say, Xanax. Folks needs their booze, and taxes on it are out of all proportion to its importance to the people.

They are essential items, particularly in these hard economic times.

351 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:50:48pm

re: #342 Gus 802

That's a mighty steep jump.

Yep. It is. And it would drive away some of the bottom end of the market. Still, "sin taxes" are the ones that most people are willing to put up with, because they're usually not affected by them. Me, I don't care for cigars that much. My brother and dad love them, and are always pulling out Cubans they get via friends in Canada. I just don't enjoy them all that much. As far as the $2 American brands are concerned, maybe if I'm camping and sitting around the fire drinking cheap beer...but even then I'll probably have good beer, and someone will have a box of imported cigars...Swisher Sweets are for high school kids.

352 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:50:58pm

re: #335 MandyManners

[Link: www.marxists.org...]

READ.

Eh, not the best place to start.

If you can plow through it, this is the shit

[Link: www.marxists.org...]

It's basicly the first draft for what would become Das Kapital.

The secret about Marx is that he kept writing the same book over and over so once you've mastered one of his major works you've got a feel for the other ones.

353 loubob57  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:51:22pm

Well crap, who will I vote for now? I really, really don't like Governor Goodhair. And I'm not that thrilled with Hutchison either. Now I've got a reason not to like Medina...

I Googled around to try to figure out if she's a creationist but never found anything. But that's a pretty good probability for any Republican nominee for anything in TX.

354 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:51:41pm

re: #350 Guanxi88

Where do you stand on legalizing Marijuana?

355 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:51:41pm

re: #342 Gus 802

I'm guessing a very large part of the cigar industry is not the expensive cigars but the and cheapies...

Doesn't just hurt the fat cat.

356 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:51:52pm

re: #352 Conservative Moonbat

Eh, not the best place to start.

If you can plow through it, this is the shit

[Link: www.marxists.org...]

It's basicly the first draft for what would become Das Kapital.

The secret about Marx is that he kept writing the same book over and over so once you've mastered one of his major works you've got a feel for the other ones.

Like graham greene!

357 Kragar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:52:03pm

To keep up with the spirit of this thread so far, I will now begin my exhaustive 100,000 word dissertation on the life of the Dali Lama*.

*I have never studied the life of the Dali Lama.

358 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:52:40pm

re: #354 Ben Hur

Where do you stand on legalizing Marijuana?

Frankly, it's got a lot of advantages over booze, in terms of the comfort it can provide. Legalized, and entered as an article of commerce for adult consumption, it would be a great thing.

359 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:53:51pm

re: #357 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

To keep up with the spirit of this thread so far, I will now begin my exhaustive 100,000 word dissertation on the life of the Dali Lama*.

*I have never studied the life of the Dali Lama.

First, we start by saying, Dali painted those melting clocks...

360 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:53:55pm

re: #358 Guanxi88

Agreed.

Obviously.

361 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:54:02pm

re: #339 Obdicut

James has admitted that he hasn't read Marx.

James, you might not want to talk about things before reading them. It's kind of a waste of the time of others. Marx is accessible, though frankly not that great a writer. I don't mean to be mean, but when you're trying to talk about Marx in the abstract without having read him, it's a WTF moment for me.

The Marxists.org translations are a bit weak because they are what's in public domain.

I recommend this volume:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

It's the one we used in the class I took.

362 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:54:16pm

re: #357 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

To keep up with the spirit of this thread so far, I will now begin my exhaustive 100,000 word dissertation on the life of the Dali Lama*.

*I have never studied the life of the Dali Lama.

Penn and Teller did:

363 jaunte  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:54:28pm

re: #353 loubob57

Well crap, who will I vote for now? I really, really don't like Governor Goodhair. And I'm not that thrilled with Hutchison either. Now I've got a reason not to like Medina...

I Googled around to try to figure out if she's a creationist but never found anything. But that's a pretty good probability for any Republican nominee for anything in TX.

Bill White did a good job as Houston mayor.

Houston voters returned him to office with overwhelming re-election margins of 91% and 86%. He received national recognition for his leadership in response to Hurricanes Katrina and Rita in 2005 and Hurricane Ike in 2008.
[Link: billwhitefortexas.com...]
364 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:54:30pm

re: #351 darthstar

Yep. It is. And it would drive away some of the bottom end of the market. Still, "sin taxes" are the ones that most people are willing to put up with, because they're usually not affected by them. Me, I don't care for cigars that much. My brother and dad love them, and are always pulling out Cubans they get via friends in Canada. I just don't enjoy them all that much. As far as the $2 American brands are concerned, maybe if I'm camping and sitting around the fire drinking cheap beer...but even then I'll probably have good beer, and someone will have a box of imported cigars...Swisher Sweets are for high school kids.

Politicians will always choose the "sin" taxes because they're the most politically expedient. However, they do have consequences such as Hav-a-Tampa cigars closing their doors. Once all cigar companies have shut down they will have no choice but to "create" new sins to tax.

In the long run they're regressive. The demand goes down if the companies don't shut down. As the demand decreases so does the revenue generated from said taxes. The argument will be that it will thus increase health conditions. Then we're delving into the state secondarily controlling people's behavior.

365 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:54:30pm

re: #339 Obdicut

James has admitted that he hasn't read Marx.

James, you might not want to talk about things before reading them. It's kind of a waste of the time of others. Marx is accessible, though frankly not that great a writer. I don't mean to be mean, but when you're trying to talk about Marx in the abstract without having read him, it's a WTF
moment for me.

Reading him now here's one of my first major disagreement.

"a class of labourers, who live only so long as they find work, and who find work only so long as their labour increases capital. "

Clearly that doesn't pan out in a society like ours with unemployment, social security, and of course jobs that don't produce capital like being a radio talk show host.


I never intended to actually talk about Marx only about the nature of logic and how diagnosis and treatment are two separate things.

366 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:54:33pm

re: #359 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

First, we start by saying, Dali painted those melting clocks...

Hello, Dali?

367 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:55:41pm

re: #346 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You forgot this part...

Altadis tried to keep the plant open by closing it for a week or two at a time and furloughing workers. Eventually, though, the company couldn't cope with a steep drop in consumer demand, brought on by the recession and a large new tax on tobacco products, McKenzie said.

Convenient...

Consumer demand. McKenzie adds on 'taxes' every time he can...but increased tobacco taxes haven't been shown to actually reduce demand...not with cigarrettes, and they're taxed up the asshole. I'm sorry, but the word of one person directly affected by a combination of factors doesn't convince me. I'm sorry his business failed, but it wasn't killed by a 40 cent tax on cigars...though it may have been a contributing factor with some of his former customers.

368 cliffster  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:55:44pm

re: #360 Ben Hur

Agreed.

Obviously.

Potheads.

369 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:56:01pm

re: #366 Ben Hur

Hello, Dali?

What's it like living in Peru?

370 cliffster  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:56:17pm

Hot summer night, I was counting all the starlight on your skin
Airtight, as I watched you breathing out, I'm breathing in
By the lake, so humid that the moon was getting wet
For our sake the crickets started playing their castonets
Like a gypsy, you stole me from a child into a man
It never hit me: I've been running ever since I took a stand
And this love like Spanish moss hangin from the trees
Just swaying in the breeze like a sweet memory

371 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:56:26pm

re: #355 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm guessing a very large part of the cigar industry is not the expensive cigars but the and cheapies...

Doesn't just hurt the fat cat.

2 bucks would be a cheap cigar. In the case of Mass. that would mean the guy on the street that was spending around 2 bucks for a cigar like that will now have to fork over almost 5 bucks. The question becomes does he keep buying those cigars from this point forward?

372 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:57:18pm

re: #367 darthstar

Consumer demand. McKenzie adds on 'taxes' every time he can...but increased tobacco taxes haven't been shown to actually reduce demand...not with cigarrettes, and they're taxed up the asshole. I'm sorry, but the word of one person directly affected by a combination of factors doesn't convince me. I'm sorry his business failed, but it wasn't killed by a 40 cent tax on cigars...though it may have been a contributing factor with some of his former customers.

Eh, Altadis isn't exactly known for high product quality. There are a number of domestic cigar makers who've managed to stay in the game for well-nigh a century. Good quality product at a reasonable price.

Altadis, though, is notorious for use of stem, scrap, and all manner of cheap junk in their products.

373 Kragar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:57:19pm

The Dali Lama is first mentioned in 232 AD, at the Battle of the 1000 Pillars, where using his super powers, he consumed the souls of a Chinese army and used them to create a supernatural spirit army to crush the last vestiges of the Atlantean culture.

374 theliel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:57:44pm

re: #228 jamesfirecat

Late as hell to the party, but Marx's Concept of Man actually covers quite a bit of realevant ground:

It's been 10 good years since i've been hip deep in this stuff, but essentially it boils down to this: there are 8 'stages' of govenrance, starting at tribal and then moving to 'postcapitalism 4'
tribal->something(autocracy?->aristocracy->capitolism->post1->post2->post3->post4

it's not a one way trip, and they're the underlying driving forces of a society.

You can't skip ahead. you can fall back.
so when the Lennin and CO. tried to jump russia streight from a aristocratic society to post 4 you really wind up with more differnt aristocrats mophing into kleptocracy (ultimate unfettered capitolism)

THe US enter post1 after the depression, when things like Social security came up.
WE're on the cusp (or over) into post2, where non-physical goods start being the basis for labour (information, post scarcity econ, etc) and one's labour becomes exceptoinally diminished in worth compared to what it rewards your employer with.

post 3 sucks even more and post 4 either is...well, we either get The Federation, or The Empire.


as for property taxes.....the reason you pay property taxes to the state is because without the state you wouldn't have property. You'd have land/goods/structures you'd have to arrange the defense for and that you currently occupy, but without the state, there is no property.

375 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:57:56pm

re: #355 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm guessing a very large part of the cigar industry is not the expensive cigars but the and cheapies...

Doesn't just hurt the fat cat.

100% agreement with you on that point.

376 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:58:45pm

re: #370 cliffster

Gosh, I love Hiatt.

377 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 12:59:44pm

re: #375 darthstar

100% agreement with you on that point.

Anyone interested, there's a company up in PA been making very nice cigars, very cheaply, for a very long time: Parodi. Altadis will shortly go under, I fear, because their cheapo niche isn't worth the bother. Parodi, however, have always had inexpensive cigars that are good value for the money.

378 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:00:13pm

re: #347 Petero1818

That the idea, not the person was evil. Excuse me. Same point.

Pretty sure it's not beyond the pale to judge the results as "generally evil".

379 theliel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:00:24pm

re: #374 theliel

as for property taxes...the reason you pay property taxes to the state is because without the state you wouldn't have property. You'd have land/goods/structures you'd have to arrange the defense for and that you currently occupy, but without the state, there is no property.


Also, what you 'purchased' was the exclusivity rights to said object/land/etc.
you still owe the existance of that exclusive right to the state, which defendes, defines and maintains your exclusive rights (whatever they may comprise)

380 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:00:34pm

re: #370 cliffster

Crickets play castanets? We can start doing a variation of the "crickets" commentary. Next time something is ignored that shouldn't be, I'll say "castanets."

381 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:01:02pm

re: #375 darthstar

The whole point of that particular place, is they do make the cheapies. But, you're dead on too... Someone who'll pay $20.00 for a cigar won't mind paying $21.00.

382 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:01:27pm

By the way Mosh I noticed you down dinged one of my posts in this thread that had nothing to do with Marxisim, I take it you were felt I was unjustified comparing William Randolph Hurst and Rodger Ailes?

To be fair my head was away at the time so I really meant to compare Hurt and Rupert Murdoch....

383 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:01:47pm

re: #372 Guanxi88

Eh, Altadis isn't exactly known for high product quality. There are a number of domestic cigar makers who've managed to stay in the game for well-nigh a century. Good quality product at a reasonable price.

Altadis, though, is notorious for use of stem, scrap, and all manner of cheap junk in their products.

So it's the tobacco equivalent of that crappy, dry, brown Mexican pot that was all I could find for a semester or two in college(at least it was only 60 bucks an ounce)...and me, a Northern California native. Those were some sad days, I'll tell you.

384 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:01:49pm

re: #367 darthstar

Consumer demand. McKenzie adds on 'taxes' every time he can...but increased tobacco taxes haven't been shown to actually reduce demand...not with cigarrettes, and they're taxed up the asshole. I'm sorry, but the word of one person directly affected by a combination of factors doesn't convince me. I'm sorry his business failed, but it wasn't killed by a 40 cent tax on cigars...though it may have been a contributing factor with some of his former customers.

Pretty sure that increased tobacco taxes have been directly linked to reduced demand.

385 cliffster  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:01:51pm

re: #376 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Gosh, I love Hiatt.

He invented goosebumps

386 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:01:59pm

re: #381 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The whole point of that particular place, is they do make the cheapies. But, you're dead on too... Someone who'll pay $20.00 for a cigar won't mind paying $21.00.

Guess it would depend on the habit. Someone who smokes cheap cigars daily vs. someone who spends 20 bucks on the occasional cigar.

387 torrentprime  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:03:03pm

re: #47 Girth

It would be my goal in life to corrupt as many as I could before they got me.

Oh noes! I think you've exposed the conspiracy that led to Haggard, Sen. Craig, Rep. Foley, Rep. Allen, and the Chairman of the Young Republicans. Who leaked it??!?

/

388 simoom  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:03:30pm

This is kind of interesting:
[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

In the poll, 59 percent say they now support allowing "homosexuals" to serve in the U.S. military, including 34 percent who say they strongly favor that. Ten percent say they somewhat oppose it and 19 percent say they strongly oppose it.

But the numbers differ when the question is changed to whether Americans support "gay men and lesbians" serving in the military. When the question is asked that way, 70 percent of Americans say they support gay men and lesbians serving in the military, including 19 percent who say they somewhat favor it. Seven percent somewhat oppose it, and 12 percent strongly oppose it.

So either using the term "homosexuals" causes a more negative reaction that "gay men" or adding in "lesbians" produces a more positive reaction?

389 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:03:36pm

I propose a 300% tax on mountain climbing and backpacking equipment to help pay for trail restoration and emergency rescues!

//

390 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:03:39pm

BY THE WAY! I WAS INSIDE A CIGAR SMOKING BAR LAST NIGHT.

(I couldn't frickin' breathe there)

391 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:03:44pm

re: #379 theliel

Also, what you 'purchased' was the exclusivity rights to said object/land/etc.
you still owe the existance of that exclusive right to the state, which defendes, defines and maintains your exclusive rights (whatever they may comprise)

So it's like a Microsoft software license?

392 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:04:16pm

re: #390 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

BY THE WAY! I WAS INSIDE A CIGAR SMOKING BAR LAST NIGHT.

(I couldn't frickin' breathe there)

Smoking ought not be done indoors, unless the structure is at least the size of a zepplin hangar, and all doors are open.

393 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:04:30pm

re: #381 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The whole point of that particular place, is they do make the cheapies. But, you're dead on too... Someone who'll pay $20.00 for a cigar won't mind paying $21.00.

Okay...so I think we can agree that we agree on some of this, but not all of it? I say we stop there before we start writing "{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}" to each other.

394 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:04:54pm

re: #388 simoom

weird

395 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:04:58pm

re: #393 darthstar

Okay.

{{{HUGS!}}}

396 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:05:02pm

re: #392 Guanxi88

Smoking ought not be done indoors, unless the structure is at least the size of a zepplin hangar, and all doors are open.

Lakehurst Naval Air Station Cigar Bar?

/

397 cliffster  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:05:05pm

re: #380 Silvergirl

Crickets play castanets? We can start doing a variation of the "crickets" commentary. Next time something is ignored that shouldn't be, I'll say "castanets."

Is Ben Hur your supplier? /kid

398 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:05:09pm

re: #388 simoom

This is kind of interesting:
[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

So either using the term "homosexuals" causes a more negative reaction that "gay men" or adding in "lesbians" produces a more positive reaction?

Adding "lesbians" produces a more positive reaction!

(I say half jokingly)

399 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:05:28pm

re: #393 darthstar

Okay...so I think we can agree that we agree on some of this, but not all of it? I say we stop there before we start writing "{{{HUGS}}}" to each other.

well...he does smell like a big peppermint candy...so it wouldn't be that bad...

400 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:05:45pm

re: #395 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Okay.

{{{HUGS!}}}

Awww, fuck.

401 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:06:07pm

re: #388 simoom

Very interesting. Definitely shows the power of suggestion and how pollsters subtly and not so subtly influence the outcome of a poll.

402 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:06:39pm

re: #396 Gus 802

Only when the Hindenberg isn't around...

403 torrentprime  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:06:58pm

re: #388 simoom

This is kind of interesting:
[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

So either using the term "homosexuals" causes a more negative reaction that "gay men" or adding in "lesbians" produces a more positive reaction?

Absolutely. There is a reason the religious right uses the term "homosexual" exclusively rather than "gay". It's a dog whistle for "those people", really.

404 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:07:32pm

re: #402 lawhawk

Only when the Hindenberg isn't around...

Good point.

/Boom!

405 cliffster  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:07:36pm

re: #388 simoom

This is kind of interesting:
[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

So either using the term "homosexuals" causes a more negative reaction that "gay men" or adding in "lesbians" produces a more positive reaction?

How very queer and puzzling.

406 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:07:40pm

re: #402 lawhawk

HEH...check my avatar...

407 TedStriker  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:08:40pm

re: #261 Gus 802

Historically, the only ones that get to keep their "shiny toys" in communist systems have been the ruling class. This has been consistent throughout history and it includes the USSR, China, North Korea, Vietnam, etc.

They take more than shiny toys away. They also tell you were to work, how you ill be educated, where you will live, and so on.

And decide whether you're valuable enough to the "system" to able to live...

408 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:09:27pm

re: #399 Aceofwhat?

Seriously.

409 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:09:47pm

re: #403 torrentprime

Absolutely. There is a reason the religious right uses the term "homosexual" exclusively rather than "gay". It's a dog whistle for "those people", really.

They just like saying "sex"...I'm surprised they don't quote Ann Sexton more often just so they can say her name...regardless of how relevant the context is. (e.g. “God owns heaven but He craves the earth.”)


(DaddyG - I used 'relevant' without a negative qualifier!)

410 simoom  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:10:31pm

re: #388 simoom

So either using the term "homosexuals" causes a more negative reaction that "gay men" or adding in "lesbians" produces a more positive reaction?

This whole sentence didn't make much sense. It probably should be something like:

So either using the term "homosexuals" causes a more negative reaction than "gay men and lesbians" or perhaps adding in "lesbians" produces a more positive reaction?
411 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:11:26pm

re: #406 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

HEH...check my avatar...

You should also have this one.

412 cliffster  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:11:48pm

re: #401 lawhawk

Very interesting. Definitely shows the power of suggestion and how pollsters subtly and not so subtly influence the outcome of a poll.

Do you support the senseless butchering of tens of thousands of innocent citizens for the purpose of keeping oil prices low?
...
DK Poll reports that 95% of Americans do not support the war in Iraq

413 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:12:13pm

re: #407 talon_262

And decide whether you're valuable enough to the "system" to able to live...

Yep. The prospects of Siberia or the Gulags were very real. I read Solzhenitsyn about 30 years ago but my memory has faded regarding his work. China still practices that in the form of reeducation if not outright imprisonment or executions.

414 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:13:29pm

re: #412 cliffster

Nice poll.

415 iceweasel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:14:26pm

re: #403 torrentprime

Absolutely. There is a reason the religious right uses the term "homosexual" exclusively rather than "gay". It's a dog whistle for "those people", really.

Yep. And I'd bet we'd see the highest amount of approval if the question said "gay people" or "gay men and women".

Hence why the religious right sticks exclusively to the term 'homosexual'. They wish to define gay people by reducing them exclusively to sex, rather than acknowledging that, like any other human being, sex is a part of who they are. They're also neighbours, co-workers, parents, friends, sons, daughters, and more.

416 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:14:46pm
417 Kragar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:15:24pm

re: #414 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Nice poll.

Thats what she said.

418 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:15:48pm

re: #413 Gus 802

Yep. The prospects of Siberia or the Gulags were very real. I read Solzhenitsyn about 30 years ago but my memory has faded regarding his work. China still practices that in the form of reeducation if not outright imprisonment or executions.

Laodong gaizao, man.

419 torrentprime  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:16:26pm

re: #405 cliffster

How very queer and puzzling.

Also, they put gay "marriage" in quotes, like so, and many even refer to gay as "gay." (Can't led people to believe it's anything other than a sinful choice!)

I'm guessing a lot of the crowd here heard of this, but it's too good not to share. The best example of rightwing filters is the American Family Association's OneNewsNow, that repackages AP News wire stories, cleaning them up for Christian-friendly eyes - and not telling either the reader or the AP of changes. One of the cleanups was systematically purging the word "gay" from any news story that used it with "homosexual". Their story about sprinter Tyson Gay's qualifying run at the Beijing Olympics was priceless:

Tyson Homosexual was a blur in blue, sprinting 100 meters faster than anyone ever has.
"It means a lot to me," the 25-year-old Homosexual said. "I'm glad my body could do it, because now I know I have it in me."

They claimed it was a "fluke".

420 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:16:50pm

re: #418 Guanxi88

Laodong gaizao, man.

Remolding through labor? Had to Google that.

421 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:17:25pm

re: #420 Gus 802

Remolding through labor? Had to Google that.

Yep, that's what they call it. Slave labor/death camps. They still got 'em - Laogai, they call em, for short.

422 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:18:43pm

re: #419 torrentprime

right - a fluke of the "find/replace" feature! idiots.

423 torrentprime  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:19:55pm

re: #415 iceweasel

Yep. And I'd bet we'd see the highest amount of approval if the question said "gay people" or "gay men and women".

Hence why the religious right sticks exclusively to the term 'homosexual'. They wish to define gay people by reducing them exclusively to sex, rather than acknowledging that, like any other human being, sex is a part of who they are. They're also neighbours, co-workers, parents, friends, sons, daughters, and more.

Since we're on a Texas kick today...
From Gov. Rick Perry, explaining that gays can't be in the Scout, because, "Scouting ought to be about building character, not about sex."

PERRY: The argument that gets made is that homosexuality is about sex. Do you agree?
SOLOMON: No.
PERRY: Well, then why don't they call it something else?

424 lostlakehiker  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:20:12pm

re: #325 jamesfirecat

To my knowledge I was never trying to explain his theories.

To me Mosh seemed to be saying that because Marx's solution to the problem of Capitalism failed (and it did disastrously at that) by default Marx must not have been able to be notice a real problem.

Even without having read Marx this seemed as silly to me as saying if we notice someone is sick and we try leeches on them and it only makes things worse then they must have not been sick in the first place.

I was what I was trying (and evidently failing) to do was point out that diagnosis and solution are two different things.

Just because Marx got one wrong doesn't mean he doubtlessly got the other wrong, but it no more means that he got the other right either.

The course of history seems to have born out that he got both wrong so lets move on and refer to him now only as an example of "what not to do".

The designation of a state of affairs as a "problem" carries with it the implicit assumption that there is a solution. It is a fact of nature that pigs cannot fly. Even if pigs were equipped with wings, they still couldn't fly. The earth's gravity and their mass conspire to make this impossible.

Now you could say that the problem pigs have with flying is that they are too heavy, and that might make some sense. But if you say that the problem is that the earth's gravity is too intense, well, golly. What do your propose for a remedy? Build rockets and launch 90% of the earth's mass into space?

When Marx diagnoses as a problem the fact that human beings differ in their ability to earn money, that diagnosis carries with it the assumption that this state of affairs can and ought to be changed so that everyone receives roughly equal shares of material goods.

As with flying pigs, the difficulty here is that if that's going to be the rule, then real human beings who are exceptionally capable of intense and exacting work are going to put that work into hobbies, where the work is its own reward, rather than expending it in the service of some greater good to society. The economy grinds to a halt because these key workers are essential, and then nobody has anything.

Our capitalist society has a much better answer: our income tax grabs a share of the fruits of the high-end worker's labors, but only a share. The worker himself keeps at least half, give or take. Half of a big loaf is far more than all of a small loaf, so there is more available to ameliorate the lot of the deserving poor than there is in a socialist economy.

The unsolvable "problem" is envy. The poor in Communist nations have company, and if any still harbor envy, they must harbor it in total privacy because bitching about the rulers will get you in a lot of trouble. The poor in rich countries are rich by comparison to the intelligentsia of socialist nations, let alone the poor there, but they measure their wealth against that of Donald Trump and this excites envy. Safe envy.

425 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:20:55pm

re: #421 Guanxi88

Yep, that's what they call it. Slave labor/death camps. They still got 'em - Laogai, they call em, for short.

A little info on the system:

[Link: www.laogai.org...]

Shi Tao (师涛)

Arrested on 11/23/2004 and sentenced to 10 years in the Office of National Security Detention Center for "Revealing state secrets to foreign entities".

On April 20, 2004, Shi attended a staff meeting at the Contemporary Business News where the contents of a Chinese Communist Party (CCP) Central Propaganda Bureau document about security concerns were discussed. That evening, from his office, Shi used his personal Yahoo! e-mail account to send his notes about this meeting to the New York-based Web site Democracy Forum. China's national security bureau contacted Internet company Yahoo! Hong Kong Holdings Ltd to provide Shi's email records. Yahoo! revealed Shi's identity and the recipients of his emails overseas. Shi was detained on November 24, 2004 and tried for "illegally providing state secrets overseas" under Article 111 of the People's Republic of China (PRC) Criminal Law on April 27, 2005.

Liu Xiaobo ( 刘晓波)

Liu Xiaobo, a well-known writer and literary critic, was first arrested for his involvement in the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989, for which he spent twenty months in prison. On 10/8/1996 he was arrested again, and sentenced to 3 years of "Reeducation through labor" at Beijing Qincheng Prison for participating in a pro-democracy movement.

In 2008, Liu worked with other dissidents and intellectuals to draft Charter 08. Issued on December 10, 2008, Charter 08 was an open letter initially signed by 303 Chinese citizens calling for broad legal and political reform, increased protection of human rights, and genuine democracy in China. On the evening of December 8, 2008, two days before the official release of Charter 08, Liu Xiaobo was taken from his home in Beijing by the police. After being detained for over a year without trial, Liu was finally tried on December 23, 2009, and on December 25th received a sentence of 11 years on charges of subversion.

Since the release of Charter 08, as of February, 2009, there have been over 8,000 supporters from over the world signed the document, and most of the original signatories have been detained or harassed by police.

426 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:21:02pm

re: #422 Aceofwhat?

right - a fluke of the "find/replace" feature! idiots.

It is...just ask Homosexuallord Perry

427 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:22:32pm

re: #425 Guanxi88

(*$&@)%(*^ Yahoo.

428 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:23:12pm

re: #423 torrentprime

Very different. Men camping with boys and men camping with men aren't the same subject. I can prefer that my son not go on camping trips with men who find men attractive without believing that gays shouldn't be allowed to serve our country in any capacity they desire.

You wouldn't send girls camping with heterosexual men, right? (you shouldn't) This is not different.

429 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:23:29pm

re: #427 Gus 802

(*$&@)%(*^ Yahoo.

Yeah, I'm not exactly thrilled with how obedient and obliging they were in this case - Google's hands aren't clean either

430 cliffster  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:24:19pm

re: #428 Aceofwhat?

Ha! Hadn't thought about it like that.

431 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:25:13pm

re: #430 cliffster

Ha! Hadn't thought about it like that.

I have a son and a daughter. She's not going camping with men and he's not going camping with gay men. I will intellectually pwn anyone who finds that stance bigoted.

432 iceweasel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:26:16pm

re: #428 Aceofwhat?

Very different. Men camping with boys and men camping with men aren't the same subject. I can prefer that my son not go on camping trips with men who find men attractive without believing that gays shouldn't be allowed to serve our country in any capacity they desire.

You wouldn't send girls camping with heterosexual men, right? (you shouldn't) This is not different.

It is the same subject. Pedophiles are pedophiles. You don't find more of them among gay people than you do straight people, and a gay man is no more likely to find a ten year old boy 'attractive' as a sexual object than a straight man is going to find a ten year old girl an appropriate sexual object.

433 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:27:33pm

re: #432 iceweasel

It is the same subject. Pedophiles are pedophiles. You don't find more of them among gay people than you do straight people, and a gay man is no more likely to find a ten year old boy 'attractive' as a sexual object than a straight man is going to find a ten year old girl an appropriate sexual object.

You have to be kidding me. You think it's appropriate for men to take girls camping?

434 torrentprime  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:27:36pm

re: #428 Aceofwhat?

Very different. Men camping with boys and men camping with men aren't the same subject. I can prefer that my son not go on camping trips with men who find men attractive without believing that gays shouldn't be allowed to serve our country in any capacity they desire.

You wouldn't send girls camping with heterosexual men, right? (you shouldn't) This is not different.

So there are no Den Mothers in the scouts? Did I dream the nice ladies who ran most of our meetings - and went on camping trips? Don't straight women find men attractive? Should we ban straight women too? Or do we only allow den mothers with the gay scouts?

Focusing solely on the camping and the gaysex isn't much different than focusing solely on gay soldiers bunking with straight soldiers; in both cases it presumes that gays can't control themselves and "normal people" are at risk.

435 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:28:30pm

re: #428 Aceofwhat?

You have no way of ensuring that your boys don't go on camping trips with men who find men attractive.

And sure, I'd send a daughter camping with heterosexual men-- if I knew them and trusted them. I wouldn't send any children camping with anyone I hadn't met and didn't trust.

There is no more reason to believe that an openly gay man will predate on a boy than there is a man who is apparently heterosexual or does not reveal his heterosexuality.

436 torrentprime  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:28:42pm

re: #431 Aceofwhat?

I have a son and a daughter. She's not going camping with men and he's not going camping with gay men. I will intellectually pwn anyone who finds that stance bigoted.

And your daughter isn't allowed to camp with lesbians, I assume?
I see a problem with any softball overnight trips in the future...

/

437 iceweasel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:28:51pm

re: #434 torrentprime


Focusing solely on the camping and the gaysex isn't much different than focusing solely on gay soldiers bunking with straight soldiers; in both cases it presumes that gays can't control themselves and "normal people" are at risk.

It also furthers the lie that there is a seekrit ghey agenda intent on 'converting' people, especially children.

438 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:29:19pm

re: #436 torrentprime

And your daughter isn't allowed to camp with lesbians, I assume?
I see a problem with any softball overnight trips in the future...

/

Folk music festivals are right out.
/

439 tradewind  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:29:26pm

Way to go, UK terror experts!
[Link: www.thesun.co.uk...]
Keep showing us how it's done.

440 tradewind  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:30:10pm

re: #438 Guanxi88

There goes the LPGA, dammit.

441 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:31:27pm

re: #435 Obdicut

You have no way of ensuring that your boys don't go on camping trips with men who find men attractive.

And sure, I'd send a daughter camping with heterosexual men-- if I knew them and trusted them. I wouldn't send any children camping with anyone I hadn't met and didn't trust.

There is no more reason to believe that an openly gay man will predate on a boy than there is a man who is apparently heterosexual or does not reveal his heterosexuality.

I can ensure that my daughter does not go camping with men. I can ensure that my son does not go camping with men who self-profess to be gay.

The point at which a child morphs into sexual maturity, in the eyes of a predator, is in the eyes of a predator.

I cannot guarantee my children's safety, but if you are saying that there is no more reason to believe that a gay man may be attracted to a 13-yr old boy than a straight man, you are absolutely kidding yourself and aren't interested in serious debate.

442 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:31:28pm

Anywho - as the subject has taken a turn for the controversial, and in the interests of not entangling myself in pointless and heated disputes, I think I'll just sit quietly for a bit.

443 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:31:47pm

re: #431 Aceofwhat?

I have a son and a daughter. She's not going camping with men and he's not going camping with gay men. I will intellectually pwn anyone who finds that stance bigoted.

Do you mean to imply that gay men are automatically pedophiles just because they are gay?

With respect to not allowing a child to go camping with an adult stranger, you'll find no argument from me. I just seek clarity to your statement.

444 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:31:53pm

re: #433 Aceofwhat?

You have to be kidding me. You think it's appropriate for men to take girls camping?

I don't know. Do we always have to think about the worst case scenario? Regarding crimes it's possible to see any combination of sexes being involved both as victim and perpetrator.

445 cliffster  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:32:14pm

re: #435 Obdicut

You have no way of ensuring that your boys don't go on camping trips with men who find men attractive.

And sure, I'd send a daughter camping with heterosexual men-- if I knew them and trusted them. I wouldn't send any children camping with anyone I hadn't met and didn't trust.

There is no more reason to believe that an openly gay man will predate on a boy than there is a man who is apparently heterosexual or does not reveal his heterosexuality.

I got buddies I've known since I was a teenager. My daughter is not going camping with them. Their wives going camping with my son.. well that's different. Men are sex-crazed jackasses.

446 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:32:23pm

re: #436 torrentprime

And your daughter isn't allowed to camp with lesbians, I assume?
I see a problem with any softball overnight trips in the future...

/

Not until she's of a certain age, although data shows that men are far, far more likely to predate on pre-teens and teens. Don't stray off the path in a desperate search for analogies.

447 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:32:35pm

re: #432 iceweasel

It is the same subject. Pedophiles are pedophiles. You don't find more of them among gay people than you do straight people, and a gay man is no more likely to find a ten year old boy 'attractive' as a sexual object than a straight man is going to find a ten year old girl an appropriate sexual object.

Well said.

And while I can understand Ace's position (one wants to protect one's children from all predators), I don't think it's due to his being an irrational person...it's just that the anti-gay voices (the John McCains, the Duncan Hunters, the Bill O'Reillys, the Phelps, etc.) make it sound like gays just run around with raging hard-ons all the time. My god, if you let them in the military, one gay soldier could sodomize a whole platoon...at the same time!
/

448 kirkspencer  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:33:08pm

re: #244 Mosh

You are aware, aren't you, that those 20 flat tax countries are flat INCOME tax, not flat SALES tax, right?

449 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:33:57pm

re: #444 Gus 802

I don't know. Do we always have to think about the worst case scenario? Regarding crimes it's possible to see any combination of sexes being involved both as victim and perpetrator.


When safeguarding your children, it becomes necessary to rank what is probable rather than what is possible.

anything is possible. anyone who says that a straight man is just as likely to be attracted to an 11-14yr old boy as a gay man needs to pass me the bong.

450 iceweasel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:34:22pm

re: #444 Gus 802

I don't know. Do we always have to think about the worst case scenario? Regarding crimes it's possible to see any combination of sexes being involved both as victim and perpetrator.

Yes, and any combination of sexual orientations.
There's a lot for parents to worry about; the threat isn't specific to any gender or sexual orientation-- except the orientation of "being a pedophile" which has nothing at all to do with normal sexuality, gay or straight. It's an orientation which is about hurting children, and has nothing to do with love, or intimacy, or even sex when you get down to it. Sex is the weapon or means.

451 torrentprime  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:34:44pm

re: #431 Aceofwhat?

I have a son and a daughter. She's not going camping with men and he's not going camping with gay men. I will intellectually pwn anyone who finds that stance bigoted.

I doubt that last, actually, but let's focus less on feelings and more on policy.

So you have a problem with gay men being around your boy while he's sleeping. You claim it's not bigoted, so let's ask: should gay men be banned from all Scoutleader activities? Never run a meeting, never lead a troop or even a den in any way whatsoever - never carve a racer even! - because someday, someone might camp somewhere and then your trigger fact pattern kicks in?

452 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:34:45pm

re: #447 darthstar

Well said.

And while I can understand Ace's position (one wants to protect one's children from all predators), I don't think it's due to his being an irrational person...it's just that the anti-gay voices (the John McCains, the Duncan Hunters, the Bill O'Reillys, the Phelps, etc.) make it sound like gays just run around with raging hard-ons all the time. My god, if you let them in the military, one gay soldier could sodomize a whole platoon...at the same time!
/

If that were the case, why would i be just as adamant that my daughter not take overnight trips with male guardians?

Your inability to recognize the consistency of my stance does you a disservice.

453 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:35:06pm

re: #449 Aceofwhat?

When safeguarding your children, it becomes necessary to rank what is probable rather than what is possible.

anything is possible. anyone who says that a straight man is just as likely to be attracted to an 11-14yr old boy as a gay man needs to pass me the bong.

Understood. I might have different opinions based on a world view but you as a parent have the right to decide what is best for your own children.

454 cliffster  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:35:46pm

re: #447 darthstar

That's not what he said at all. In fact he specifically pointed out the straight-man/girl bit. Why would you attribute what he said to anti-gay voices?

455 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:36:05pm

[Link: news.cnet.com...]

The evils of a growing corporate/governmental surveillance and security apparatus should be apparent to all by now.

456 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:36:06pm

re: #445 cliffster

I got buddies I've known since I was a teenager. My daughter is not going camping with them. Their wives going camping with my son.. well that's different. Men are sex-crazed jackasses.

repeated for emphasis.

anyone who continues to respond to the gay part of my stance without responding to the daughter-straight man part of my stance is missing the point like Conseco misses fly balls. get your logic together, people. I'm either right on both counts or wrong on both counts.

457 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:37:25pm

re: #453 Gus 802

Understood. I might have different opinions based on a world view but you as a parent have the right to decide what is best for your own children.

that's all I ask. i don't mind that people disagree. i mind being labeled a bigot for what is an entirely rational stance.

ask fathers of daughters how happy they'd be to send them off camping with men, who they know in passing but not in depth.

that's what i thought.

458 torrentprime  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:37:40pm

re: #446 Aceofwhat?

Not until she's of a certain age, although data shows that men are far, far more likely to predate on pre-teens and teens. Don't stray off the path in a desperate search for analogies.

Adult gay women - young female : Adult gay male - young male

That's not a stretch; it's simple reversal of the genders I ask again: does your non-bigotry extend to banning lesbians from young female activities?

And your data only shows likelihood, not individual propensity. We don't judge people on what "their kind" is likely to do (do we?)

459 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:37:45pm

re: #447 darthstar

Well said.

And while I can understand Ace's position (one wants to protect one's children from all predators), I don't think it's due to his being an irrational person...it's just that the anti-gay voices (the John McCains, the Duncan Hunters, the Bill O'Reillys, the Phelps, etc.) make it sound like gays just run around with raging hard-ons all the time. My god, if you let them in the military, one gay soldier could sodomize a whole platoon...at the same time!
/

John McCain
Fred Phelps

You see a similarity there, do you?

460 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:38:10pm

re: #451 torrentprime

I doubt that last, actually, but let's focus less on feelings and more on policy.

So you have a problem with gay men being around your boy while he's sleeping. You claim it's not bigoted, so let's ask: should gay men be banned from all Scoutleader activities? Never run a meeting, never lead a troop or even a den in any way whatsoever - never carve a racer even! - because someday, someone might camp somewhere and then your trigger fact pattern kicks in?

focusing solely on half of my argument only highlights the weakness of yours.

461 Bubblehead II  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:38:13pm

Obama to meet Dalai Lama on Feb 18:


Let the seething begin

462 tradewind  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:38:22pm

re: #403 torrentprime

So what's the reason the medical community uses homosexuality rather than teh ghey? Are they blowing their own dog whistle, or are they just stubbornly eschewing slang?
Really, in light of all the perfectly valid complaints on their list, how high up is that one?

463 Political Atheist  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:38:42pm

Should the government track our cellphones without a warrant or not?
I would emphatically say no. Get a warrant. Show cause.

[Link: news.cnet.com...]

"This is a critical question for privacy in the 21st century. If the courts do side with the government, that means that everywhere we go, in the real world and online, will be an open book to the government unprotected by the Fourth Amendment."
--Kevin Bankston, attorney, Electronic Frontier Foundation

464 cliffster  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:38:54pm

re: #461 Bubblehead II

Obama to meet Dalai Lama on Feb 18:

Let the seething begin

I wonder how low he will bow???

465 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:39:17pm

re: #461 Bubblehead II

Obama to meet Dalai Lama on Feb 18:

Let the seething begin

This, on top of the arms sales to Taiwan, might very well do a great deal of damage to our relations with the PRC.

Good.

466 torrentprime  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:39:17pm

re: #460 Aceofwhat?

focusing solely on half of my argument only highlights the weakness of yours.

Can't commit to it, huh? I don't blame you.

467 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:39:27pm

re: #441 Aceofwhat?

I cannot guarantee my children's safety, but if you are saying that there is no more reason to believe that a gay man may be attracted to a 13-yr old boy than a straight man, you are absolutely kidding yourself and aren't interested in serious debate.

Can you try reading what I actually said?

There is no more reason to believe that an openly gay man will predate on a boy than there is a man who is apparently heterosexual or does not reveal his heterosexuality.

I stand by what I said. except that last 'heterosexuality' was supposed to be 'homosexuality'.

You are effectively punishing gay men for being openly gay, and, since there is no acid test for sexuality, a pedophile could simply say he was a heterosexual. Or not talk about his sexuality. Your policy means that any man who is honest about his homosexuality is not allowed as a scout leader, but anyone who covers it up is. That seems exactly backwards to me.

re: #445 cliffster

I have buddies I wouldn't trust a parakeet with, let alone my kids. The point was that I wouldn't let my kids go camping with anyone I didn't trust, and whether a man is gay or not doesn't make me trust them any less.

468 Gus  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:39:35pm

Back later folks...

469 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:40:02pm

re: #461 Bubblehead II

OMG! I can almost see the Republicans running around in the streets, screaming and gnashing their teeth.

470 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:40:33pm

re: #458 torrentprime

Adult gay women - young female : Adult gay male - young male

That's not a stretch; it's simple reversal of the genders I ask again: does your non-bigotry extend to banning lesbians from young female activities?

And your data only shows likelihood, not individual propensity. We don't judge people on what "their kind" is likely to do (do we?)

yes, it does extend to objecting to lesbian disinvolvement from young female activities.

and when my kids are involved, i judge based on probabilities, i make no apologies for it, and i'll brook no questions of bigotry given the consistency of my position.

471 torrentprime  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:41:10pm

re: #462 tradewind

So what's the reason the medical community uses homosexuality rather than teh ghey? Are they blowing their own dog whistle, or are they just stubbornly eschewing slang?
Really, in light of all the perfectly valid complaints on their list, how high up is that one?

Does the medical community use the term heterosexual in the same way? Probably they do. So, in other words, they use both terms , and in an even manner.
But does the religious right use the term heterosexual in the same way? Not even close.

472 Soap_Man  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:41:50pm

re: #428 Aceofwhat?

Very different. Men camping with boys and men camping with men aren't the same subject. I can prefer that my son not go on camping trips with men who find men attractive without believing that gays shouldn't be allowed to serve our country in any capacity they desire.

You wouldn't send girls camping with heterosexual men, right? (you shouldn't) This is not different.

I don't know how much this ads to the conversation, but I would be just as uncomfortable sending my daughter camping with a straight adult man as I would sending my son camping with a gay adult male.

This isn't suggesting that all straight adult males and/or all gay adult males are pedophiles. Both situations would make me uncomfortable for the same reason. I don't think there is anything wrong with that line of thinking.

473 cliffster  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:41:52pm

re: #471 torrentprime

Does the medical community use the term heterosexual in the same way? Probably they do. So, in other words, they use both terms , and in an even manner.
But does the religious right use the term heterosexual in the same way? Not even close.

I believe the word of choice would be "normal" in the latter case.

474 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:42:13pm

The president of Mexico is speaking in Juarez.

[Link: www.diario.com.mx...]

...in Spanish, and Gus just left us....

475 torrentprime  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:42:32pm

re: #470 Aceofwhat?

yes, it does extend to objecting to lesbian disinvolvement from young female activities.

and when my kids are involved, i judge based on probabilities, i make no apologies for it, and i'll brook no questions of bigotry given the consistency of my position.

The acid test for bigotry is a lack of consistency? Only inconsistent people are bigots?

476 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:43:00pm

re: #452 Aceofwhat?

If that were the case, why would i be just as adamant that my daughter not take overnight trips with male guardians?

Your inability to recognize the consistency of my stance does you a disservice.

I don't think you're being inconsistent. And I wouldn't send my daughter out with some guy on an overnight trip, either. I think the point iceweasel made was apt. Sexual predators are no more common among gays than they are among straight people. If someone's a sexual predator/pedophile, it doesn't matter what gender they are...or their sexual orientation.

Just mentally loop through the people you know...there are likely some people you'd trust your son to go overnight with and some you wouldn't...same goes for your daughter, I'm guessing. And I'm not just talking about worrying they'll be abused. I know people I won't let watch my dogs overnight...they're not bad, and they're not into beastiality...they're just not very responsible.

477 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:43:19pm

re: #467 Obdicut

I stand by what I said. except that last 'heterosexuality' was supposed to be 'homosexuality'.

You are effectively punishing gay men for being openly gay, and, since there is no acid test for sexuality, a pedophile could simply say he was a heterosexual. Or not talk about his sexuality. Your policy means that any man who is honest about his homosexuality is not allowed as a scout leader, but anyone who covers it up is. That seems exactly backwards to me.

re: #445 cliffster

I have buddies I wouldn't trust a parakeet with, let alone my kids. The point was that I wouldn't let my kids go camping with anyone I didn't trust, and whether a man is gay or not doesn't make me trust them any less.

It's hard to read what you actually said when what you actually said wasn't what you actually wanted to say. So, no.

And now you're focusing on half of the argument, too. Am I misguided for not wanting my daughter to have a male heterosexual scout leader?

478 Political Atheist  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:44:06pm

Breaking on CNN
Bill Clinton in the Hospital. NYC

479 torrentprime  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:44:12pm

re: #472 Soap_Man

I don't know how much this ads to the conversation, but I would be just as uncomfortable sending my daughter camping with a straight adult man as I would sending my son camping with a gay adult male.

This isn't suggesting that all straight adult males and/or all gay adult males are pedophiles. Both situations would make me uncomfortable for the same reason. I don't think there is anything wrong with that line of thinking.

No one said it was wrong, but I'll ask you what ace wouldn't answer. Should gay men be banned from all youth activities leadership roles as a result? The camping fact pattern trumps all others?

481 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:44:28pm

re: #472 Soap_Man

I don't know how much this ads to the conversation, but I would be just as uncomfortable sending my daughter camping with a straight adult man as I would sending my son camping with a gay adult male.

This isn't suggesting that all straight adult males and/or all gay adult males are pedophiles. Both situations would make me uncomfortable for the same reason. I don't think there is anything wrong with that line of thinking.

That is all i ask.

482 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:44:44pm

re: #469 eclectic infidel

OMG! I can almost see the Republicans running around in the streets, screaming and gnashing their teeth.

I don't know about that. It's kinda nice, actually - and I say this as one who holds no brief for Obama or the Dalai Lama - that the two are meeting up and the BHO is jamming a thumb into the PRC's eye.

483 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:45:02pm

John Mayer apologizes.

While performing his tune "Gravity" Wednesday at Nashville's Sommet Center, Mayer, 32, stopped playing and apologized to his bandmates, some of whom were African-American.


"In the quest to be clever," he began, "I completely forgot about the people that I love and that love me."


He then said that he had entered a world of "selfishness and greediness and arrogance." He said that he thought if he could just be "speedy and witty and pull together as many fast words and phrases as I could, that I would be clever enough to buy myself another day without anybody pinning me down and saying, 'You're a creep.'


"I should have just given that up and played the guitar," he went on. "I didn't. So I decided I would try to be as clever as possible all the time, and I did that at the expense of people that I love and that feels absolutely terrible.


"I think it's important that you know that everybody on this stage is here playing with me not because they condone what I say in any interview ... they're on this stage because they support myself as a possible future grown-up," he continued as the audience cheered.


Mayer then got choked up.

With his voice cracking, he told the crowd, "And maybe they see something that I don't. So maybe I need to take a break from trying to be clever and spend a little time looking at what they see -- because they've done an unbelievable thing by standing on this stage and standing by my side playing tonight.


"It's just not worth being clever," he said, adding: "I quit the media game. I'm out. I'm done. I just want to play my guitar.
484 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:45:22pm

re: #475 torrentprime

The acid test for bigotry is a lack of consistency? Only inconsistent people are bigots?

In this particular instance, yes. In others, no.

485 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:45:33pm

re: #470 Aceofwhat?

I don't think your position is bigoted, but I do think it's completely illogical. But it doesn't make me think that you're in any way biased against gay people.

486 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:45:59pm

re: #478 Rightwingconspirator

Breaking on CNN
Bill Clinton in the Hospital. NYC

re: #480 Varek Raith

Breaking;
Former President Bill Clinton hospitalized in New York City, ABC News reports.

Crap! Not Bill!

I voted against him twice, wouldn't trust him to hold my wallet or talk to my daughters, but like him all the same.

Best wishes, big guy!

487 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:46:35pm

re: #479 torrentprime

No one said it was wrong, but I'll ask you what ace wouldn't answer. Should gay men be banned from all youth activities leadership roles as a result? The camping fact pattern trumps all others?

Ugh, fine. No, not all youth activities leadership roles. Only the roles that I wouldn't be comfortable with if my daughter were attending in lieu of my son.

Happy?

488 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:47:23pm

Pre-Emptive Controversy:

Will the American Flag be dipped during the Vancouver Olympics Opening Ceremony?

It never has been.

489 Political Atheist  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:47:44pm

I do hope Bill will be okay. Holding for better information.

490 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:47:57pm

re: #488 Ben Hur

Pre-Emptive Controversy:

Will the American Flag be dipped during the Vancouver Olympics Opening Ceremony?

It never has been.

Depends on who's holding it, doesn't it? (wink wink!)

491 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:48:01pm

re: #485 Obdicut

I don't think your position is bigoted, but I do think it's completely illogical. But it doesn't make me think that you're in any way biased against gay people.

Survey 100 fathers about whether they'd trust men that they know in passing, but not terribly well, to take their daughters camping. I won't hold my breath.

Some things don't make sense until you have kids. Not your fault. But i appreciate the last comment.

492 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:48:15pm
493 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:48:25pm

re: #477 Aceofwhat?

Again: My point is that you have no way of really knowing whether the person saying "Oh, yeah, I'm straight, your kid is fine with me," is telling the truth. Hell, even if he has sex with women, plenty of pedophiles who prey on boys have sex with women too.

I think your position winds up simply disallowing gay men from being scout leaders, while not actually achieving any positive benefit.

494 Soap_Man  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:48:26pm

re: #479 torrentprime

No one said it was wrong, but I'll ask you what ace wouldn't answer. Should gay men be banned from all youth activities leadership roles as a result? The camping fact pattern trumps all others?

No. The parents should decide whether or not it is okay for their child to be part of the activity. If I knew the guy (this applies to both situations) and trusted him, I would be okay with it. It's really a case-by-case thing. It's also a little harder to answer as I have no children.

495 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:48:41pm

re: #492 darthstar

I hope he's okay...

me too.

496 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:49:12pm

He's had major heart surgery in the past.

Luckily he's in NYC.

497 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:49:47pm

re: #493 Obdicut

Again: My point is that you have no way of really knowing whether the person saying "Oh, yeah, I'm straight, your kid is fine with me," is telling the truth. Hell, even if he has sex with women, plenty of pedophiles who prey on boys have sex with women too.

I think your position winds up simply disallowing gay men from being scout leaders, while not actually achieving any positive benefit.

Substitute "gay men" with "men" and "boys" with "girls" and go talk to some dads.

498 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:49:57pm
(CNN) -- Former President Bill Clinton was hospitalized in New York on Thursday, ABC News reported.

Two sources have told CNN that Clinton went to the hospital after experiencing chest pains.

Clinton, 63, underwent quadruple bypass surgery in 2004 at New York-Presbyterian Hospital.

A spokeswoman for that hospital said she had not heard anything about the report.

499 cliffster  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:50:00pm

re: #480 Varek Raith

Breaking;
Former President Bill Clinton hospitalized in New York City, ABC News reports.

Cut that shit out, Wiley Drake

500 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:50:06pm

re: #204 Oh no...Sand People!

I would tack on at least an additional 130 plus million to that...in fact we will NEVER get the true count of deaths that actually took place under that 'well intentioned' mantle of thought. If we had the true count it would be staggering.

Without saying a kind word about Marxism, I wonder what the grand death toll for unregulated capitalism is.

501 zora  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:50:12pm

re: #483 The Sanity Inspector

I was reading about his interview where he used the "n" word and that was not the most offensive thing he said. I really like his music and was thinking that this guy should just shut up and do what he does best. I'm glad that's what he's going to do. I hope he hasn't done too much damage to himself.

502 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:50:13pm

re: #490 Guanxi88

Depends on who's holding it, doesn't it? (wink wink!)

Remember when the Blue Jays were in the World Series, and the Marine honor guard carried the Maple Leaf flag upside down? The Canadians printed up T-shirts with Old glory upside down, and "Sorry, eh" underneath.

503 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:50:23pm

re: #496 Ben Hur

He's had major heart surgery in the past.

Luckily he's in NYC.

Yeah, could you imagine howf*cked he'd have been if this happened in any other country. Just sayin'

504 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:50:25pm

re: #491 Aceofwhat?

I'd say there's a possibility they stop making sense when you have kids, and turn a little more emotional.

505 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:50:31pm

re: #500 SanFranciscoZionist

Without saying a kind word about Marxism, I wonder what the grand death toll for unregulated capitalism is.

423

506 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:50:45pm

re: #499 cliffster

Cut that shit out, Wiley Drake

I don't get it...?

507 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:50:47pm

re: #486 Guanxi88

Crap! Not Bill!

I voted against him twice, wouldn't trust him to hold my wallet or talk to my daughters, but like him all the same.

Best wishes, big guy!

He's the man you love to hate...

That comment seems a bit flippant at the moment on its own however, hard to remeber that he's 64 years old at times....

508 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:51:08pm

re: #499 cliffster

Cut that shit out, Wiley Drake

I don't believe in prayer, but if I did, I'd pray for Wily Drake.

509 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:51:23pm

re: #506 Varek Raith

I don't get it...?

He claimed to pray for Murtha's death.

510 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:51:31pm

re: #505 Aceofwhat?

423

Where does that number come from?

511 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:51:45pm

re: #509 darthstar

He claimed to pray for Murtha's death.

D'oh! Thanks.

512 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:51:59pm

re: #507 jamesfirecat

He's the man you love to hate...

That comment seems a bit flippant at the moment on its own however, hard to remeber that he's 64 years old at times...

Yeah, somehow I don't think of him as being more than about mid-50's in age.

All kidding aside, we don't need to lose a Pres so young.

513 Soap_Man  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:52:14pm

re: #480 Varek Raith

Breaking;
Former President Bill Clinton hospitalized in New York City, ABC News reports.

Okay, this comment may be inappropriate and you can down-ding if you want, but this was too funny. My boss just walked past my office and I told him Clinton is in the hospital.

Him: "Did he have an erection that lasted more than four hours."

514 iceweasel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:52:19pm

Do the Scouts run background checks on troop leaders and such? Anyone know? Girl scouts too, of course.

I guess I assumed it was more or less standard for anyone working with or around children now, but I suppose it's different when we're talking about community organised activities...

515 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:52:24pm

This is a repost from the AGW thread where the denier types always come out of the woodwork at the end. I am posting it here because I came up with some quick and direct ways to shut down three of the most common canards.

Repeating the same old canards, that were debunked here and a dozen other places does not make them any more correct.

The reason that water vapor is not listed as a GHG in these discussions is not that it is ignored. It is because water precipitates whereas things like methane and CO2 stay in the air for years or even centuries. Water is a feedback not a forcing.

Read the science and understand it for once. This has been explained many many times.

The site that was called biased - is an online course from a major research center into the field put together by two professors who are active researchers in the field. The only bias is towards the truth. When one makes a political stand based on bad science, they become shocked that the truth develops a "liberal" bias.

The canard that CO2 is good for you and not a pollutant is a remarkable oversimplification to the point of stupidity. Water is good for you - unless you are drowning. Any substance in the wrong quantity or circumstance can be lethal. That includes oxygen and nitrogen as well. In the case of CO2, it is currently causing a catastrophic change in our global climate.

Finally, there is no "debate" and there are no two sides between politically motivated ignorance and pseudo science on the one side and actual science with data, facts and mathematics on the other. The denier side is not equal. It is the height of arrogance for a bunch of untrained folks from the web to dare to presume that they, or whatever right wing propaganda blog put out by other non-scientists, is somehow equal to actual science or that they deserve to be seen as equally rational in something that is not yet settled. It is settled and the science is sound. They deserve only the exact same response as flat earthers and anti-evolutionists.

The arrogance of this is endlessly insulting. One does not walk into an operating room and tell the surgeon how to cut if one is not a surgeon themselves. This is because lives are at stake and you don't let some web fool tell you that for political reasons the preferred treatment for back ache is leg amputation. In the case of AGW, billions of lives are at stake as well as our entire civilization as we know it.

516 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:52:25pm

re: #504 Obdicut

I'd say there's a possibility they stop making sense when you have kids, and turn a little more emotional.

Defending your kids is all about probability reduction, and you have the occasional knack of making the perfect the enemy of the good. So I understand that you don't perceive my stance on this to be fully logical.

517 tradewind  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:52:33pm

re: #486 Guanxi88

I feel exactly the same way, now that he's out of the WH. Hope it is nothing serious.
Had to laugh at the ABC news comment that said ' Mrs Clinton, seen leaving, did not appear upset or rushed '.
(Ya think?//)

518 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:53:16pm

re: #513 Soap_Man

As long as he ends up ok, ROFL.
:)

519 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:53:46pm

re: #510 jamesfirecat

Where does that number come from?

the same place your marxist talking points came from!

(i kid, i kid)

520 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:54:24pm

re: #464 cliffster

I wonder how low he will bow???

I might feel a need to give a bow to the Dalai Lama if I met him.

521 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:54:39pm

re: #504 Obdicut

I'd say there's a possibility they stop making sense when you have kids, and turn a little more emotional.

When you've got your heart walking around outside your body, these hypothetical discussion become rather less...hypothetical.

522 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:54:48pm

re: #514 iceweasel

Do the Scouts run background checks on troop leaders and such? Anyone know? Girl scouts too, of course.

I guess I assumed it was more or less standard for anyone working with or around children now, but I suppose it's different when we're talking about community organised activities...

Yes. At least, i made damn sure that they did for my kids' troops.

523 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:55:05pm

re: #521 The Sanity Inspector

When you've got your heart walking around outside your body, these hypothetical discussion become rather less...hypothetical.

well said

524 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:55:16pm

re: #516 Aceofwhat?

I'm actually saying that you're not reducing any probability of harm, but in fact increasing it, since you're creating what i really believe to be a false sense of protection against pedophiles by disallowing gay men in those roles. In addition, if that gay man could do a better job of physically caring for my son-- if I have a gay man who's an expert on wilderness survival vs. a straight guy who took a class in it-- I'd rather have the gay man take my son camping.

525 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:56:06pm

re: #513 Soap_Man

Okay, this comment may be inappropriate and you can down-ding if you want, but this was too funny. My boss just walked past my office and I told him Clinton is in the hospital.

Him: "Did he have an erection that lasted more than four hours."

I'm stealing that when he's out of hospital.

526 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:56:31pm

re: #522 Aceofwhat?

Yes. At least, i made damn sure that they did for my kids' troops.

As a (former?) eagle scout, I can tell you that the BSA has a police of "2 deep leadership" just to prevent problems like this.

Or in case something bad happens to the first adult. Really it's a good policy for all kinds of reasons....

527 srb1976  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:56:46pm

re: #524 Obdicut

I'm actually saying that you're not reducing any probability of harm, but in fact increasing it, since you're creating what i really believe to be a false sense of protection against pedophiles by disallowing gay men in those roles. In addition, if that gay man could do a better job of physically caring for my son-- if I have a gay man who's an expert on wilderness survival vs. a straight guy who took a class in it-- I'd rather have the gay man take my son camping.

It may be out of line, but I have always wondered where the "gay=pedophile" stereotype came from....makes very little sense to me......can anyone explain?

528 Bubblehead II  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:57:04pm

re: #465 Guanxi88

As well as him stating that he is going to take them to task over manipulating their currency and trade practices.

529 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:57:12pm

re: #521 The Sanity Inspector

I have a bunch of kids that I provide care for who are not biologically mine, but I have to make these kinds of decisions all the time for them-- and they definitely are part of my heart.

Since they're all learning-disabled in one way or another, I worry far more about other adults' ability to physically/socially care for them than I do about their sexuality, even if I believed sexual predators would be honest about their sexuality, which I don't.

530 Girth  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:58:14pm

Conservative Leaders to Sign "The Mount Vernon Statement" on Feb. 17

[Link: politics.theatlantic.com...]

They're calling it "The Mount Vernon Statement": a group of leaders of conservative groups will gather in Washington, DC on the eve of the yearly national Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC), and sign a pact--a "definitive statement," as it's being billed, defining the principles of the conservative movement.

"A Who's Who of the conservative movement's leaders will unveil and sign the Mount Vernon Statement: a document defining the movement's principles, beliefs and values in light of the challenges facing the country and the need for Constitutional Conservatism since the Obama administration came to power," CRC Public Relations says in a press release announcing the solemn document.

531 Soap_Man  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:58:28pm

BBL

532 darthstar  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:58:32pm

Meeting time...play nice, everyone.
Ace, sorry for any misunderstandings above. Peace.

533 avanti  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:58:33pm

re: #527 srb1976

It may be out of line, but I have always wondered where the "gay=pedophile" stereotype came from...makes very little sense to me...can anyone explain?

Priest's ?

534 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:59:06pm

re: #501 zora

I was reading about his interview where he used the "n" word and that was not the most offensive thing he said. I really like his music and was thinking that this guy should just shut up and do what he does best. I'm glad that's what he's going to do. I hope he hasn't done too much damage to himself.

Yes, let's hope that, at 32, he can profit from a visit from The Clue Fairy.

535 tradewind  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:59:11pm

re: #527 srb1976

NAMBLA.

536 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 1:59:42pm

re: #524 Obdicut

I'm actually saying that you're not reducing any probability of harm, but in fact increasing it, since you're creating what i really believe to be a false sense of protection against pedophiles by disallowing gay men in those roles. In addition, if that gay man could do a better job of physically caring for my son-- if I have a gay man who's an expert on wilderness survival vs. a straight guy who took a class in it-- I'd rather have the gay man take my son camping.

your hypotheticals are verging on becoming unrealistic. i don't know, nor do i have the time to get to know, my kids' troop leaders very well. so strike that part from the debate. assume you don't know these folks very well.

next step. no, you can't guarantee that the leaders aren't lying about their orientation. you can't guarantee that they don't knock over liquor stores in their spare time, either. you get references, background checks, you dig deep but equally deep across all candidates, and do the best that you can.

I've said it twice now without any response, which usually makes me think i'm right. i'll give it one more shot.

No sane person would ever say that a gay man is just as likely to prey on a 12-yr old girl as a straight man. Why do some of you insist, then, that when we switch the gender of the kid, the logic magically warps?

537 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:00:27pm

re: #513 Soap_Man

Okay, this comment may be inappropriate and you can down-ding if you want, but this was too funny. My boss just walked past my office and I told him Clinton is in the hospital.

Him: "Did he have an erection that lasted more than four hours."

I somehow doubt he needs Viagra.

538 Bubblehead II  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:01:00pm

re: #480 Varek Raith

Wonder if this was brought on by all the trips he was taking to Haiti? Regardless, Here is to a speedy recovery.

539 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:01:26pm

re: #537 MandyManners

I somehow doubt he needs Viagra.

Bless the man, he has enormous appetites.

540 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:01:49pm

Found this on Bill Clinton:

Sources on Capitol Hill tell ABC News that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was seen leaving the Oval Office a short time ago and did not seem "too concerned" or "in a rush."

541 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:01:54pm

re: #525 Ben Hur

I'm stealing that when he's out of hospital.

You're stealing his Viagra?

542 tradewind  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:02:27pm

re: #538 Bubblehead II

Thank heaven he was not in Port au Prince or Africa when he became ill.

543 srb1976  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:02:40pm

Before you all go up to the Clinton thread....anyone know anything about gettnig ice skates for small kids?

544 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:02:50pm

re: #539 Guanxi88

Bless the man, he has enormous appetites.

Oh, I'm sure he has big ones.

545 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:02:56pm

re: #541 MandyManners

You're stealing his Viagra?

That's just wrong, Ben!
Rofl.
:)

546 iceweasel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:03:24pm

re: #527 srb1976

It may be out of line, but I have always wondered where the "gay=pedophile" stereotype came from...makes very little sense to me...can anyone explain?

A few different places, I think.
First: fear of teh ghey agenda. The religious right claims gay people want to 'convert' our children-- this spills over into wanting gay people out of teaching positions, etc.

Second: sex offenders, including pedophiles, are overwhelmingly male. Pedophiles are different than other sex offenders, because while they usually have a preference about victim-type, they're FAR more flexible than other types of sex offenders because their preference is "child"-- not male child, not female child. If they can't find the one, they'll take the other. And many don't care at all but just go on opportunity.

Third: the 80's explosion in hysteria over child sex abuse and ritual sex abuse. That was sort of the beginning point for awareness of 'stranger danger' and the like.
Fourth: the media cycle. One cute kid snatched by a stranger will be all over the news-- but the vast majority of kids that are sexually abused are victimised by people close to them, repeatedly, and never make the news.

That's my fast gloss on some of the factors. The perpetrators of sexual offenses tend to be male; we publicise the disappearances of children, and many of them are also male-- but that reflects how fungible pedophiles are w/r/t their victim class, not a sexual orientation of 'gay' per se.

547 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:03:24pm

re: #543 srb1976

Before you all go up to the Clinton thread...anyone know anything about gettnig ice skates for small kids?

They need little blades?

548 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:03:34pm

re: #428 Aceofwhat?

Very different. Men camping with boys and men camping with men aren't the same subject. I can prefer that my son not go on camping trips with men who find men attractive without believing that gays shouldn't be allowed to serve our country in any capacity they desire.

You wouldn't send girls camping with heterosexual men, right? (you shouldn't) This is not different.

I disagree.

But just for the record, would you be OK with a gay man leading a group of girls on a campting trip?

549 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:04:26pm

re: #541 MandyManners

You're stealing his Viagra?

My wife is due any minute.

At this point, a slight breeze is sufficient.

550 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:05:15pm

re: #548 SanFranciscoZionist

I disagree.

But just for the record, would you be OK with a gay man leading a group of girls on a campting trip?

That's an interesting twist. I'd probably say "yes", provided I knew the guys to be responsible (in other words, so long as they're older than, say, 35 or so).

551 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:05:48pm

re: #441 Aceofwhat?

I can ensure that my daughter does not go camping with men. I can ensure that my son does not go camping with men who self-profess to be gay.

The point at which a child morphs into sexual maturity, in the eyes of a predator, is in the eyes of a predator.

I cannot guarantee my children's safety, but if you are saying that there is no more reason to believe that a gay man may be attracted to a 13-yr old boy than a straight man, you are absolutely kidding yourself and aren't interested in serious debate.

Statistically, a LOT of men who are not 'self-professing to be gay' sexually assault boys.

552 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:06:17pm

re: #550 Guanxi88

That's an interesting twist. I'd probably say "yes", provided I knew the guys to be responsible (in other words, so long as they're older than, say, 35 or so).

Oh, bugger... You're telling me I got 9 more years before I'm a responsible adult?
///:P

553 srb1976  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:06:24pm

re: #547 MandyManners

They need little blades?

The Little Man announced today (for the 17th time) that he wants to play hockey....so we are taking him to a skating lesson to make sure he really wants to do this, if he does, we will probably have to buy him skates.....but we live in alabama, it's not like winter sports are popular here, and i am not sure enough of sizing to order them online....no sure I will need to buy them, just trying to prepare in case I do

554 avanti  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:06:55pm

re: #548 SanFranciscoZionist

I disagree.

But just for the record, would you be OK with a gay man leading a group of girls on a campting trip?

Sure, they could help with their fashion sense. I'm only partially kidding since my wife's male, gay friend has helped with hers.

555 tradewind  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:07:09pm

re: #547 MandyManners

All I know is that I have a few pairs that were barely broken in before they were outgrown. They should try to form a co-op with some friends and swap 'em until and unless there's a budding Dorothy Hamill or pro hockey player in your midst.

556 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:07:25pm

re: #552 Varek Raith

Oh, bugger... You're telling me I got 9 more years before I'm a responsible adult?
///:P

I'm an anti-Hippy: Never trust anyone younger than 30.

557 cliffster  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:08:05pm

re: #552 Varek Raith

Oh, bugger... You're telling me I got 9 more years before I'm a responsible adult?
///:P

You are not going camping with my daughter. Not now, and not nine years from now.

558 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:08:35pm

re: #536 Aceofwhat?

Please explain how my hypothetical is the least bit unrealistic.

I don't know, nor do i have the time to get to know, my kids' troop leaders very well.

Well, sorry, but i wouldn't actually let my kids go camping with someone I didn't know well. So maybe that's the main disconnect here.

next step. no, you can't guarantee that the leaders aren't lying about their orientation. you can't guarantee that they don't knock over liquor stores in their spare time, either. you get references, background checks, you dig deep but equally deep across all candidates, and do the best that you can.

And if you discovered that a particular gay man who wanted to be a scout leader had never dated anyone less than five years older than him, would that change your mind at all?

No sane person would ever say that a gay man is just as likely to prey on a 12-yr old girl as a straight man. Why do some of you insist, then, that when we switch the gender of the kid, the logic magically warps?

Because that's not what anybody is saying here. What people are saying, including me, is:

A) There is no reason to believe that a pedophile would be honest about his sexual orientation anyway-- they would most likely say whatever they felt was most likely to get them access, which is obviously 'straight'. Most pedophiles, also, do not actually have a relationship that you could use to verify, but many pedophiles who do have a relationship have a heterosexual relationship but abuse boys, or boys and girls.

B) I am no more likely to prey on a 12 year old girl than a gay man is. I'm straight. People who prey on twelve year olds, in the face of societal disapproval, laws, common sense, and ethics, have a very different sexuality than the norm. The attraction is not similar to an adult attraction to gender; it's a specific attraction to a non-adult state.

559 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:08:42pm

re: #552 Varek Raith

Oh, bugger... You're telling me I got 9 more years before I'm a responsible adult?
///:P

C'mon - we all know that most males are more or less insane and unstable until they hit 30, and that it takes us a few years to get used to being adults. 35's about the lower end of the spectrum, for me.

(BTW, I learned all this once I turned 36; previously, I had thought it was 30, until I turned 33.)

560 tradewind  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:09:06pm

re: #553 srb1976

Sorry... I answered Mandy inadvertently. See [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

561 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:09:12pm

re: #553 srb1976

The Little Man announced today (for the 17th time) that he wants to play hockey...so we are taking him to a skating lesson to make sure he really wants to do this, if he does, we will probably have to buy him skates...but we live in alabama, it's not like winter sports are popular here, and i am not sure enough of sizing to order them online...no sure I will need to buy them, just trying to prepare in case I do

Maybe someone at the rink can give you tips.

562 Girth  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:09:21pm

re: #543 srb1976

Before you all go up to the Clinton thread...anyone know anything about gettnig ice skates for small kids?

I would highly recommend finding a used sporting goods store.

563 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:09:47pm

re: #555 tradewind

All I know is that I have a few pairs that were barely broken in before they were outgrown. They should try to form a co-op with some friends and swap 'em until and unless there's a budding Dorothy Hamill or pro hockey player in your midst.

I don't know about sharing footwear.

564 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:09:49pm

re: #557 cliffster

You are not going camping with my daughter. Not now, and not nine years from now.

Ph34r the g33ks!
:P

565 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:10:18pm

re: #553 srb1976

Well, extrapolating from what you just wrote, you can size him at the skating lesson (I'm assuming there are skates there) and ask the instructor if he/she knows any good vendors once you have the size at hand. I did a brief search on Google Products and it looks like you'll be paying somewhere in the park of $50+.

566 What, me worry?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:10:38pm

re: #538 Bubblehead II

Wonder if this was brought on by all the trips he was taking to Haiti? Regardless, Here is to a speedy recovery.

He's got a bum ticker, but he's doing the right thing by keeping an eye on it anyway.

567 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:11:32pm

re: #526 jamesfirecat

As a (former?) eagle scout, I can tell you that the BSA has a police of "2 deep leadership" just to prevent problems like this.

Or in case something bad happens to the first adult. Really it's a good policy for all kinds of reasons...

My husband is an Eagle Scout. He thinks the BSA's position on gay scout leaders is BS.

568 srb1976  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:11:37pm

re: #561 MandyManners

Maybe someone at the rink can give you tips.

I hope so....totally out of my element....but he has been asking for months to play hockey, we figure we have to let him try (plus better half is secretly bursting with pride that he is even interested) = )

569 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:12:36pm

re: #566 marjoriemoon

He's got a bum ticker, but he's doing the right thing by keeping an eye on it anyway.

Bum tickler.

570 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:13:18pm

re: #550 Guanxi88

That's an interesting twist. I'd probably say "yes", provided I knew the guys to be responsible (in other words, so long as they're older than, say, 35 or so).

Would that not be a universal requirement, regardless of gender or orientation?

571 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:14:02pm

re: #533 avanti

Priests ?

Ron Dreher and Andrew Sullivan got into it big time over that scandal back in '02. For me, the takeaway was this:

I have connected the homosexuality of those priests who have been publicly exposed as pederasts to their alleged actions for one main reason: The media will strain to avoid making the connection, for fear of being accused of homophobia. But this scandal cannot be understood and honestly dealt with in its absence. We hear over and over again that "pedophiles are mostly straight men." That may be true, but what we're seeing with priests is not pedophilia, which is a deep-seated psychological illness. What we're seeing is gay men who cannot or will not keep their pants up around teenage boys. Not teenage girls. Teenage boys.
Ron Dreher, "Andrew Sullivan’s Gay Problem. And mine."

There was a book published shortly before the scandal broke, arguing that theological liberals had gained control of many Catholic seminaries. As a result, orthodox applicants tended to be screened out, and applicants who would formerly have been screened out passed on into the priesthood.

572 yenta-fada  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:14:09pm

re: #213 windsword

Because I trade gold and silver mining stocks for income, I hang out 'in the belly of the beast' daily. The gold forums (and many other financial forums) are havens for birthers and truthers. Several, if I might generalize, other beliefs accompany this mind set.
1. The Government is the enemy and the US needs to go back to its roots.
2. Israel tells Washington what to do.
3. It is superior to be rural than urban.
4. Islam is not a problem, the government uses it as a distraction to control us.
5 The Jews own the banks & the media.
6. Gold and silver are the only real money.
7. Alex Jones understands things better than any other media person.
8. Grocery list; bread, milk, ammo.
I could go on, but you get the picture and it is ugly. Glenn Beck, with all his craziness is not one of these guys. There are points of intersection. Anybody who goes on Alex Jones should be prosecuted for, if nothing else, really really bad taste.

573 cliffster  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:14:11pm

re: #564 Varek Raith

Ph34r the g33ks!
:P

ph34r the daddy

574 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:14:56pm

re: #570 SanFranciscoZionist

Would that not be a universal requirement, regardless of gender or orientation?

Yeah, I'd say so. In general, I'd want no single adult out with any children not related to him or her by blood or marriage. You team them up, and it all works out fine.

But, yeah, I'd stand by the responsible adult thing. Let it be two people, at least, three for preference - like in the missile silos, to keep an eye on each other and the kids.

575 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:17:20pm

re: #532 darthstar

Meeting time...play nice, everyone.
Ace, sorry for any misunderstandings above. Peace.

I could never be upset with a powder-lover. We're cool.

576 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:17:32pm

I am now envisoning a Hollywood comedy featuring a gay man as Girl Scout troop leader. I can't decide if he should be a tough-guy type who can't handle the giggling, or (Hollywood's choice), Mark from Ugly Betty.

"Let me give you some advice, kid. Be who you are. Wear what you want. But learn to run really fast."

577 iceweasel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:18:08pm

re: #571 The Sanity Inspector


There was a book published shortly before the scandal broke, arguing that theological liberals had gained control of many Catholic seminaries. As a result, orthodox applicants tended to be screened out, and applicants who would formerly have been screened out passed on into the priesthood.

For the record, I think the problems in the Catholic Church involving pedophilia (and sexual abuse, and the covering up) don't have to do with being gay, per se, but with the Church's attitude about sexuality generally, especially the insistence on celibacy for priests.
The problem is deeper than the celibacy though, and has to do in large part with the Church's attitude towards women and towards sex.
It's not really a surprise that some seminarians would be deeply conflicted about sex and sexual desire.

578 What, me worry?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:18:46pm

re: #423 torrentprime

Since we're on a Texas kick today...
From Gov. Rick Perry, explaining that gays can't be in the Scout, because, "Scouting ought to be about building character, not about sex."

PERRY: The argument that gets made is that homosexuality is about sex. Do you agree?
SOLOMON: No.
PERRY: Well, then why don't they call it something else?

Interesting. I had a lesbian friend say to me that if it wasn't for gay sex, you wouldn't have gay people. I thought that was blasphemous really. "How can you, of all people, say that?" She said, "What else makes me gay?" I have no other way of answering that.

I also believe it's not a problem for gays to be in Scouts.

579 cliffster  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:19:01pm

re: #576 SanFranciscoZionist

I am now envisoning a Hollywood comedy featuring a gay man as Girl Scout troop leader. I can't decide if he should be a tough-guy type who can't handle the giggling, or (Hollywood's choice), Mark from Ugly Betty.

"Let me give you some advice, kid. Be who you are. Wear what you want. But learn to run really fast."

Bravo Network exclusive

580 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:19:25pm

re: #574 Guanxi88

Yeah, I'd say so. In general, I'd want no single adult out with any children not related to him or her by blood or marriage. You team them up, and it all works out fine.

But, yeah, I'd stand by the responsible adult thing. Let it be two people, at least, three for preference - like in the missile silos, to keep an eye on each other and the kids.

That's the only responsible way to do it. Protects the kids, protects the adults.

I will admit to being sensitive about this. I had a gay day-care teacher who was a great and good man, and when people get sensitive about gay guys being around children, I tend to be irked.

581 What, me worry?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:20:34pm

re: #572 yenta-fada

Funny, scary and you have a great name :)

582 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:20:59pm

re: #580 SanFranciscoZionist

That's the only responsible way to do it. Protects the kids, protects the adults.

I will admit to being sensitive about this. I had a gay day-care teacher who was a great and good man, and when people get sensitive about gay guys being around children, I tend to be irked.

I grew up with a gay uncle around all the time - every one of his nephews all loved and adored the man, and you could find no one in whom you could place more trust than in him.

It's a question of character, integrity, and trust. There's dirt-bags of all stripes and sizes.

583 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:21:49pm

re: #548 SanFranciscoZionist

I disagree.

But just for the record, would you be OK with a gay man leading a group of girls on a campting trip?

Now we're getting somewhere interesting. I don't know. I don't think so, and as I examine myself internally, I think that I am inherently less trusting of men than women around kids.

I don't know whether data would support that feeling; i suspect that it does, but the brutally honest answer is that I am prejudiced against men of either persuasion (whom I don't know very, very well).

So that's my soul laid bare on the subject.

584 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:23:09pm

re: #567 SanFranciscoZionist

My husband is an Eagle Scout. He thinks the BSA's position on gay scout leaders is BS.

Does he think that straight men should be allowed to lead girl scouts?

585 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:23:18pm

re: #577 iceweasel

For the record, I think the problems in the Catholic Church involving pedophilia (and sexual abuse, and the covering up) don't have to do with being gay, per se, but with the Church's attitude about sexuality generally, especially the insistence on celibacy for priests.
The problem is deeper than the celibacy though, and has to do in large part with the Church's attitude towards women and towards sex.
It's not really a surprise that some seminarians would be deeply conflicted about sex and sexual desire.

As if wives are the answer to the sexual urges of men who get their
kicks from adolescent boys. These people should have been barred from ever entering seminary. The fact that they did enter is something else to thank political correctness for.

586 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:23:33pm

re: #582 Guanxi88

I grew up with a gay uncle around all the time - every one of his nephews all loved and adored the man, and you could find no one in whom you could place more trust than in him.

It's a question of character, integrity, and trust. There's dirt-bags of all stripes and sizes.

It's a question of probability.

587 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:24:14pm

re: #586 Aceofwhat?

It's a question of probability.

Hey, I agree, and, as a man, I know full well not to trust another man fully.

588 yenta-fada  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:24:26pm

re: #581 marjoriemoon

Thank y'all. (no offense to wonderful people from the South)

589 iceweasel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:24:46pm

re: #585 The Sanity Inspector

As if wives are the answer to the sexual urges of men who get their
kicks from adolescent boys. These people should have been barred from ever entering seminary. The fact that they did enter is something else to thank political correctness for.

The Catholic Church isn't exactly in thrall to political correctness.

The lax admission policies of seminaries reflect the precipitous drop in applicants. It's been a huge problem for decades.

590 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:25:25pm

re: #577 iceweasel

For the record, I think the problems in the Catholic Church involving pedophilia (and sexual abuse, and the covering up) don't have to do with being gay, per se, but with the Church's attitude about sexuality generally, especially the insistence on celibacy for priests.
The problem is deeper than the celibacy though, and has to do in large part with the Church's attitude towards women and towards sex.
It's not really a surprise that some seminarians would be deeply conflicted about sex and sexual desire.

I think there's an additional factor of gay men being nudged culturally toward the priesthood, but not encouraged to understand or aceept their sexuality. One of my cousins says that he had always assumed he would be a priest, because there were two choices in life--you married a woman and had children with her, or you were called to the priesthood. He knew he wasn't going to marry a woman.

Personally, I think he would have been a kick-ass priest, but I wonder how many men not cut out for the life made the same assumption.

Instead he went to Vietnam, and came out when he got back. As did his brother, interestingly enough. (The oldest boy in the family returned from Southeast Asia still liking girls, so I don't think it was something in the water.)

591 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:25:43pm

re: #587 Guanxi88

Hey, I agree, and, as a man, I know full well not to trust another man fully.

Heh, I don't trust anyone under the age of 20. Nor do I want anything to do with 'the joys of raising kids'. No thanks, not my thing.
:)

592 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:26:55pm

re: #577 iceweasel

For the record, I think the problems in the Catholic Church involving pedophilia (and sexual abuse, and the covering up) don't have to do with being gay, per se, but with the Church's attitude about sexuality generally, especially the insistence on celibacy for priests.
The problem is deeper than the celibacy though, and has to do in large part with the Church's attitude towards women and towards sex.
It's not really a surprise that some seminarians would be deeply conflicted about sex and sexual desire.

Are you saying that you think the Catholic Church causes pedophilia/sexual abuse?

593 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:26:58pm

re: #584 Aceofwhat?

Does he think that straight men should be allowed to lead girl scouts?

I've never asked.

594 What, me worry?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:27:26pm

re: #578 marjoriemoon

Interesting. I had a lesbian friend say to me that if it wasn't for gay sex, you wouldn't have gay people. I thought that was blasphemous really. "How can you, of all people, say that?" She said, "What else makes me gay?" I have no other way of answering that.

I also believe it's not a problem for gays to be in Scouts.

Ok... If you're a woman and you DON'T shave your armpits or legs, than you're highly suspect.

If you're a man and you DO shave your armpits and your legs, than you're highly suspect.

What is up with gay folks and shaving?

:p

595 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:27:38pm

re: #572 yenta-fada

Because I trade gold and silver mining stocks for income, I hang out 'in the belly of the beast' daily. The gold forums (and many other financial forums) are havens for birthers and truthers. Several, if I might generalize, other beliefs accompany this mind set.
1. The Government is the enemy and the US needs to go back to its roots.
2. Israel tells Washington what to do.
3. It is superior to be rural than urban.
4. Islam is not a problem, the government uses it as a distraction to control us.
5 The Jews own the banks & the media.
6. Gold and silver are the only real money.
7. Alex Jones understands things better than any other media person.
8. Grocery list; bread, milk, ammo.
I could go on, but you get the picture and it is ugly. Glenn Beck, with all his craziness is not one of these guys. There are points of intersection. Anybody who goes on Alex Jones should be prosecuted for, if nothing else, really really bad taste.

Belief in Nos. two, four and five are held by many on the Left.

596 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:28:11pm

re: #585 The Sanity Inspector

As if wives are the answer to the sexual urges of men who get their
kicks from adolescent boys. These people should have been barred from ever entering seminary. The fact that they did enter is something else to thank political correctness for.

Uh...out of everything we have to thank political corrctness for, I don't think that's on the list.

597 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:29:39pm

re: #568 srb1976

I hope so...totally out of my element...but he has been asking for months to play hockey, we figure we have to let him try (plus better half is secretly bursting with pride that he is even interested) = )

I'm thankful that The Kid is not interested in playing hockey. Football, baseball, basketball and golf are enough.

598 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:29:54pm

re: #585 The Sanity Inspector

As if wives are the answer to the sexual urges of men who get their
kicks from adolescent boys. These people should have been barred from ever entering seminary. The fact that they did enter is something else to thank political correctness for.

??? o_O

599 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:30:08pm

re: #592 Ben Hur

Are you saying that you think the Catholic Church causes pedophilia/sexual abuse?

I think the Church created fertile ground for abuse for many years. I say this as a Catholic-school educator and a passionate Catholic booster.

600 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:31:49pm

re: #594 marjoriemoon

Ok... If you're a woman and you DON'T shave your armpits or legs, than you're highly suspect.

If you're a man and you DO shave your armpits and your legs, than you're highly suspect.

What is up with gay folks and shaving?

:p

I shave my face and THAT IS IT. :D

But then again, I don't read as "gay guy" to anyone, i read as "headbanger Portlander."

601 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:32:04pm

re: #599 SanFranciscoZionist

I think the Church created fertile ground for abuse for many years. I say this as a Catholic-school educator and a passionate Catholic booster.

That I can understand.

I just wanted to clarify if Ice thinks that lifestyle actually CAUSES it.

Going to Smith College doesn't increase the chances of a girl becoming a lesbian.

602 iceweasel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:32:32pm

re: #590 SanFranciscoZionist

I think there's an additional factor of gay men being nudged culturally toward the priesthood, but not encouraged to understand or aceept their sexuality. One of my cousins says that he had always assumed he would be a priest, because there were two choices in life--you married a woman and had children with her, or you were called to the priesthood. He knew he wasn't going to marry a woman.

Personally, I think he would have been a kick-ass priest, but I wonder how many men not cut out for the life made the same assumption.

Well said. Yes, I think that's a huge factor. Add to it also the cultural/religious aspect in many Catholic families-- there's a tremendous expectation in some that someone in the family in each generation enter the clergy. At least that's been the case in large Irish Catholic families such as my own and some others I know. Only recently changed too, as in my parents' generation--which accords roughly with your cousin's. And honestly it had more to do with the shrinking size of the families.

So yes, with a background like that, and knowing that the other option (marriage to a woman or man) is out for you, you'd interpret that as a call.

603 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:32:58pm

re: #582 Guanxi88

I grew up with a gay uncle around all the time - every one of his nephews all loved and adored the man, and you could find no one in whom you could place more trust than in him.

It's a question of character, integrity, and trust. There's dirt-bags of all stripes and sizes.

It's a question of numbers, too. Sure, we all know the individual prince of a fellow who just happens to be gay. But take an organization, have its leadership become gay by some double-digit percentage, and after a while the prevailing ethos is not what it originally was, anymore.

604 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:33:17pm

re: #595 MandyManners


2. Israel tells Washington what to do.
4. Islam is not a problem, the government uses it as a distraction to control us.
5 The Jews own the banks & the media.

Belief in Nos. two, four and five are held by many on the Left.

Indeed so. The Berkeley communists tend to really harp on #2 & 5. I've heard this in person.

605 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:33:40pm

re: #592 Ben Hur

Are you saying that you think the Catholic Church causes pedophilia/sexual abuse?

Their neglect, corruption, and coverups create an environment where it is allowed to happen. There's a reason abused kids win lawsuits against the church when they grow up.

606 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:34:38pm

re: #604 eclectic infidel

Indeed so. The Berkeley communists tend to really harp on #2 & 5. I've heard this in person.

UC-Irvine seems to have a lot of those believers.

607 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:34:54pm

re: #604 eclectic infidel

Indeed so. The Berkeley communists tend to really harp on #2 & 5. I've heard this in person.

Berkeley and its wackiness is as alien to me as a liberal as the Vulcan homeworld.

608 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:34:59pm

re: #601 Ben Hur

That I can understand.

I just wanted to clarify if Ice thinks that lifestyle actually CAUSES it.

Going to Smith College doesn't increase the chances of a girl becoming a lesbian.

But if she's got it in her, it won't hurt!!

609 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:35:10pm

re: #583 Aceofwhat?

Now that I understand. Kudos to you for sticking with a difficult subject even though it'd be easy for people to paint you as a bigot.

610 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:35:25pm

re: #605 WindUpBird

Their neglect, corruption, and coverups create an environment where it is allowed to happen. There's a reason abused kids win lawsuits against the church when they grow up.

I agree with that.

I wanted to clarify if Ice thought the lifestyle CAUSED it.

611 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:35:51pm

re: #608 SanFranciscoZionist

But if she's got it in her, it won't hurt!!

The first time.....

/Rim Shot

612 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:36:12pm

re: #603 The Sanity Inspector

It's a question of numbers, too. Sure, we all know the individual prince of a fellow who just happens to be gay. But take an organization, have its leadership become gay by some double-digit percentage, and after a while the prevailing ethos is not what it originally was, anymore.

Huh?

613 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:36:15pm

re: #603 The Sanity Inspector

It's a question of numbers, too. Sure, we all know the individual prince of a fellow who just happens to be gay. But take an organization, have its leadership become gay by some double-digit percentage, and after a while the prevailing ethos is not what it originally was, anymore.

I'd like for you to elaborate on this. If ten percent of the leadership of an organization is LGBT...then what? What prevailing ethos does it become?

614 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:36:48pm

re: #610 Ben Hur

I agree with that.

I wanted to clarify if Ice thought the lifestyle CAUSED it.

I wouldn't say lifestyle, I'd say more like "corporate culture."

615 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:37:22pm

re: #612 SanFranciscoZionist

Huh?

I'm REAL curious which road he's heading down with this. My spidey sense is tingling.

616 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:37:29pm

re: #607 WindUpBird

Berkeley and its wackiness is as alien to me as a liberal as the Vulcan homeworld.

Come and visit! It can be fun. Sort of.

Actually, Berkeley is a lovely town, it just has some odd people.

617 Ben Hur  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:38:42pm

re: #614 WindUpBird

I wouldn't say lifestyle, I'd say more like "corporate culture."

Lifestyle, I meant the Catholic Church's celibacy doctrine for the clergy.

I thought Ice's point was that a "normal" person living as a priest is more likely to become a pedo/sexual abuser because of celibacy rules.

618 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:39:14pm

re: #606 MandyManners

UC-Irvine seems to have a lot of those believers.

Yes. The anti-semitism is vicious on that campus, though it comes almost entirely from the Muslim students. There's a blogger named Reut Cohen who is a former student of UC Irvine who has a blog that documented the antics by the Muslim students there.

619 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:42:56pm

re: #558 Obdicut

Please explain how my hypothetical is the least bit unrealistic.

Because that's not what anybody is saying here. What people are saying, including me, is:

B) I am no more likely to prey on a 12 year old girl than a gay man is. I'm straight. People who prey on twelve year olds, in the face of societal disapproval, laws, common sense, and ethics, have a very different sexuality than the norm. The attraction is not similar to an adult attraction to gender; it's a specific attraction to a non-adult state.

I edited your post for brevity, apologies.

It's unrealistic to get to know your kids' scout leaders very, very well. If that is your impediment to getting your kids involved in the program, then you have more barriers than I do and the rest of this is just silliness (i.e. you wouldn't allow a gay man to take your son either, but in addition, you wouldn't let a straight man take him camping).

I greatly disagree that a straight man is not more likely to prey on a 12-yo girl than a gay man. That's just absurd.

620 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:43:10pm

re: #617 Ben Hur

Lifestyle, I meant the Catholic Church's celibacy doctrine for the clergy.

I thought Ice's point was that a "normal" person living as a priest is more likely to become a pedo/sexual abuser because of celibacy rules.

They used to take boys into seminary at thirteen and fourteen in some places. There was minimal acknowledgement of sexuality, and a lot denial about it. Gonna create some monsters, a situation like that. And a culture of abuse that passes from generation to generation.

I actually think the giant wave of scandals that began in the 90s was the Church's delayed experience of what happened in mainstream American culture in the early 80s re acknowledging sexual abuse. And I think the culture, at least in the U.S. is infinitely healthier now. Note the generation of most of the priests accused in the major scandals. Not younger men.

621 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:43:24pm

re: #616 SanFranciscoZionist

Come and visit! It can be fun. Sort of.

Actually, Berkeley is a lovely town, it just has some odd people.

I'd visit, sure! I've been to the Bay many times, I go to Further Confusion in San Jose every year. But I think I actually would present as sort of a hick metalhead compared to the culture there. When i visit San Francisco, it all seems so incredibly fast-pased and big-money compared to Portland. and the traffic is terrifying XD

622 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:43:49pm

re: #594 marjoriemoon

Ok... If you're a woman and you DON'T shave your armpits or legs, than you're highly suspect.

If you're a man and you DO shave your armpits and your legs, than you're highly suspect.

What is up with gay folks and shaving?

:p

hilarious! updinged.

623 yenta-fada  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:44:38pm

re: #595 MandyManners

I absolutely agree with you, Mandy. If you told those anti-government guys that they sounded like lefties, they would deny it hotly. Then they would give you highly intellectualized rationalizations why they are Libertarians or anything but Democrats. They think Democrat is a swear word.

624 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:44:51pm

re: #617 Ben Hur

Lifestyle, I meant the Catholic Church's celibacy doctrine for the clergy.

I thought Ice's point was that a "normal" person living as a priest is more likely to become a pedo/sexual abuser because of celibacy rules.

Oh! Man, I don't even know when it comes to the celibacy thing and its cultural resonance inside the church, correlations to abuse, etc. Seems like something a team of psychologists could take eons to unravel.

625 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:44:59pm

re: #609 Obdicut

Now that I understand. Kudos to you for sticking with a difficult subject even though it'd be easy for people to paint you as a bigot.

thanks for the debate, as usual. you're a good sport.

626 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:45:59pm

re: #618 eclectic infidel

Yes. The anti-semitism is vicious on that campus, though it comes almost entirely from the Muslim students. There's a blogger named Reut Cohen who is a former student of UC Irvine who has a blog that documented the antics by the Muslim students there.

There was another incident like that recently. And, one at Oxford.

627 iceweasel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:46:03pm

re: #620 SanFranciscoZionist

They used to take boys into seminary at thirteen and fourteen in some places. There was minimal acknowledgement of sexuality, and a lot denial about it. Gonna create some monsters, a situation like that. And a culture of abuse that passes from generation to generation.

I actually think the giant wave of scandals that began in the 90s was the Church's delayed experience of what happened in mainstream American culture in the early 80s re acknowledging sexual abuse. And I think the culture, at least in the U.S. is infinitely healthier now. Note the generation of most of the priests accused in the major scandals. Not younger men.

Exactly. ireland and the uk have had their own delayed wave of scandals, some relating to the Catholic church but not all.

628 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:46:59pm

re: #618 eclectic infidel

Yes. The anti-semitism is vicious on that campus, though it comes almost entirely from the Muslim students. There's a blogger named Reut Cohen who is a former student of UC Irvine who has a blog that documented the antics by the Muslim students there.

Shoulda' looked at her blog first.

Bookmarked!

Thanks.

629 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:47:08pm

re: #615 WindUpBird

I'm REAL curious which road he's heading down with this. My spidey sense is tingling.

We all know the individual prince of a gay fellow who we'd trust our son with. We all know the individual prince of a straight fellow who we'd trust our daughter with.

the exceptions do not prove that i should be sanguine about straight men taking my daughter camping or gay men taking my son camping.

at least, that's where i think he's going...

630 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:47:35pm

re: #623 yenta-fada

I absolutely agree with you, Mandy. If you told those anti-government guys that they sounded like lefties, they would deny it hotly. Then they would give you highly intellectualized rationalizations why they are Libertarians or anything but Democrats. They think Democrat is a swear word.

it's not?

///

631 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:48:38pm

re: #616 SanFranciscoZionist

Come and visit! It can be fun. Sort of.

Actually, Berkeley is a lovely town, it just has some odd people.

odd people = tourist attractions. just another reason to visit. (i never have but it's on my list)

632 yenta-fada  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:48:56pm

re: #606 MandyManners

The Muslim Students Association agrees with many of the truthers. It's just that neither is aware of the other group.

633 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:49:36pm

re: #559 Guanxi88

C'mon - we all know that most males are more or less insane and unstable until they hit 30, and that it takes us a few years to get used to being adults. 35's about the lower end of the spectrum, for me.

(BTW, I learned all this once I turned 36; previously, I had thought it was 30, until I turned 33.)

I was actually more boring when i was younger. I didn't even drink much. I have figured out my shit in my 30's, I certainly have kicked my career into gear. But I wasn't unstable in my 20's, I basically just did the same thing as I do now, only I was poorer and had less money to go to bars. 8-)

634 iceweasel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:49:45pm

re: #624 WindUpBird

Oh! Man, I don't even know when it comes to the celibacy thing and its cultural resonance inside the church, correlations to abuse, etc. Seems like something a team of psychologists could take eons to unravel.

There's a great (and kind of old, and very academic-ish) book about that: Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven.
Certainly not the last word on the subject, but a good starting point I think. It certainly could stand to be updated with connections made to the abuse revelations.

635 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:49:53pm

re: #623 yenta-fada

I absolutely agree with you, Mandy. If you told those anti-government guys that they sounded like lefties, they would deny it hotly. Then they would give you highly intellectualized rationalizations why they are Libertarians or anything but Democrats. They think Democrat is a swear word.

Some feel the same about the GOP.

636 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:51:12pm

re: #632 yenta-fada

The Muslim Students Association agrees with many of the truthers. It's just that neither is aware of the other group.

I wonder if the troofers would flip out if someone told them that they have compatriots in the MSA.

637 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:51:36pm

re: #558 Obdicut

B) I am no more likely to prey on a 12 year old girl than a gay man is. I'm straight. People who prey on twelve year olds, in the face of societal disapproval, laws, common sense, and ethics, have a very different sexuality than the norm. The attraction is not similar to an adult attraction to gender; it's a specific attraction to a non-adult state.

Just quoting this for truth!

638 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:54:08pm

re: #595 MandyManners

Stung someone.

639 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:55:02pm

re: #637 WindUpBird

Just quoting this for truth!

It might be true of 7-year olds. It's patently false for 12yr olds. Just so you know.

640 yenta-fada  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:55:47pm

re: #636 MandyManners

I suspect the truthers would be quite comfortable with the Muslim Students Association.
That sort of overwhelming prejudice can create odd bedfellows. (not a gay reference)

641 iceweasel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:55:52pm

re: #638 MandyManners

Stung someone.

Those beliefs are held by many on the right as well, Mandy.

Crazy is bi-partisan.

642 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:56:30pm

re: #638 MandyManners

Stung someone.

Weird, because it's true. Note that you said "some". That would be in contrast to the broader brushes that are often used to paint either the GOP or the "religious".

643 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:56:55pm

re: #640 yenta-fada

I suspect the truthers would be quite comfortable with the Muslim Students Association.
That sort of overwhelming prejudice can create odd bedfellows. (not a gay reference)

Many meet at Jew-Hate Junction!

644 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:57:03pm

re: #629 Aceofwhat?

We all know the individual prince of a gay fellow who we'd trust our son with. We all know the individual prince of a straight fellow who we'd trust our daughter with.

the exceptions do not prove that i should be sanguine about straight men taking my daughter camping or gay men taking my son camping.

at least, that's where i think he's going...

I know where you're coming from, and it makes sense. It was specificall the "gay leadership = suspect and suspicious" thing that pricked my ears up. Though I'm with Obdicut, nobody would take my hypothetical phantom kid on any sort of trip anywhere unless they were a teacher or I knew them quite well. Hell, I don't let anyone drive my CAR unless I trust them very well. It would have nothing to do with their gender or orientation and everything to do with me knowing them well. When I was a kid, the only people who took me on trips were teachers (field trips) and my family, and friends of family. My parents wouldn't let me sleep over at friends' houses until they had hung out some with the parents first. I never did the Scout thing, didn't like the outdoors. Still don't. 8-)

645 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:57:04pm

re: #641 iceweasel

Those beliefs are held by many on the right as well, Mandy.

Crazy is bi-partisan.

That doesn't make her statement untrue, any more than saying that lefties send Charles hate mail excuses it when it comes from the right.

646 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:58:08pm

re: #639 Aceofwhat?

It might be true of 7-year olds. It's patently false for 12yr olds. Just so you know.

You think a gay guy who is attracted to prepubesecent kids is equivalent to an adult attraction to gender?

647 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:58:51pm

re: #644 WindUpBird

I know where you're coming from, and it makes sense. It was specificall the "gay leadership = suspect and suspicious" thing that pricked my ears up. Though I'm with Obdicut, nobody would take my hypothetical phantom kid on any sort of trip anywhere unless they were a teacher or I knew them quite well. Hell, I don't let anyone drive my CAR unless I trust them very well. It would have nothing to do with their gender or orientation and everything to do with me knowing them well. When I was a kid, the only people who took me on trips were teachers (field trips) and my family, and friends of family. My parents wouldn't let me sleep over at friends' houses until they had hung out some with the parents first. I never did the Scout thing, didn't like the outdoors. Still don't. 8-)

We're all good. My only caveat is that at some point, adults stop perceiving kids as kids and start perceiving them as sexually attractive. That point varies from adult to adult, but you'd be surprised how young kids are when their perceived attractiveness starts to fall along the same lines as one's sexual preference. 10yo on average, IIRC. thus my example.

648 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 2:59:34pm

re: #646 WindUpBird

You think a gay guy who is attracted to prepubesecent kids is equivalent to an adult attraction to gender?

see 647.

649 iceweasel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:00:03pm

re: #645 Aceofwhat?

That doesn't make her statement untrue, any more than saying that lefties send Charles hate mail excuses it when it comes from the right.

Good point. Which reminds me that CJ has said on more than one occassion that the hatemail he's getting from the right far exceeds anything he ever got from the left, in terms of viciousness...

Not that either are excusable, of course.

650 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:01:46pm

re: #649 iceweasel

Good point. Which reminds me that CJ has said on more than one occassion that the hatemail he's getting from the right far exceeds anything he ever got from the left, in terms of viciousness...

Not that either are excusable, of course.

I remember that, and I believe him. It's why I used the analogy that I did.

I believe that it's accurate to say that irrational suspicion of Jewish influence is more prevalent on the left. Not that it's excusable in either case, of course.

651 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:02:19pm

Take-out night.

652 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:02:26pm

re: #647 Aceofwhat?

We're all good. My only caveat is that at some point, adults stop perceiving kids as kids and start perceiving them as sexually attractive. That point varies from adult to adult, but you'd be surprised how young kids are when their perceived attractiveness starts to fall along the same lines as one's sexual preference. 10yo on average, IIRC. thus my example.

man, I don't really buy this, i'd like to see some supporting research. A ten year old is CRAZY young to me and I suspect, everyone I know. Ten year old doesn't read to me as anything but "kid". I mena, everyone knows the 14 year old who looked like a 21 year old in school, and that's one thing. But that's appearance that reads as adult. 10 year olds don't read as adult!

653 iceweasel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:03:30pm

re: #650 Aceofwhat?

I remember that, and I believe him. It's why I used the analogy that I did.

I believe that it's accurate to say that irrational suspicion of Jewish influence is more prevalent on the left. Not that it's excusable in either case, of course.

I'd need some stats on that. It seems pretty damn prevalent amongst the extremist right at the moment.
Antisemitism, like crazy, also appears to be bipartisan.

654 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:04:44pm

heh. two requests for stats in thirty seconds. i'm only huuuman!

655 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:05:23pm

re: #652 WindUpBird

man, I don't really buy this, i'd like to see some supporting research. A ten year old is CRAZY young to me and I suspect, everyone I know. Ten year old doesn't read to me as anything but "kid". I mena, everyone knows the 14 year old who looked like a 21 year old in school, and that's one thing. But that's appearance that reads as adult. 10 year olds don't read as adult!

I know, that's why it stuck in my head. i'll go try to find it, but it may be later tonight or tomorrow before i can dig it up.

656 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:06:04pm

re: #649 iceweasel

Good point. Which reminds me that CJ has said on more than one occassion that the hatemail he's getting from the right far exceeds anything he ever got from the left, in terms of viciousness...

Not that either are excusable, of course.

I hate that this gets folded into the LvsR tribalism thing. The maniac tea-party paranoids, it's beyond just "right wing", it's its own phenomenon, and it really should be treated as such. Obviously the GOP has a problem because those people vote Republican, and what to do with them when they're infecting the activist base. But it gets all muddied up in the THEY DID IT TOO thing. I don't blame the mainstream GOP for Ron Paul kooks.

657 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:07:26pm

re: #655 Aceofwhat?

I know, that's why it stuck in my head. i'll go try to find it, but it may be later tonight or tomorrow before i can dig it up.

That's fine. I'm honestly curious, if there's solid research that there's some subliminal attraction thing going on in the average person like that, I'd find it very interesting stuff.

658 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:07:36pm

re: #653 iceweasel

I'd need some stats on that. It seems pretty damn prevalent amongst the extremist right at the moment.
Antisemitism, like crazy, also appears to be bipartisan.

Jesse Jackson was not, shall we say, an outlier amongst the African-American community when he was kind enough to bare his soul on the topic. IIRC, most African-Americans are considered "lefty".

Does that help?

and I agree with you, that there's something about our lovely Jewish friends that seems to be a magnet for hatemongerers. one might say that it's corroborating evidence for the favor they have with God!

(i have no stats to back that up//)

659 iceweasel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:07:45pm

re: #656 WindUpBird

I hate that this gets folded into the LvsR tribalism thing. The maniac tea-party paranoids, it's beyond just "right wing", it's its own phenomenon, and it really should be treated as such. Obviously the GOP has a problem because those people vote Republican, and what to do with them when they're infecting the activist base. But it gets all muddied up in the THEY DID IT TOO thing. I don't blame the mainstream GOP for Ron Paul kooks.

Exactly so. And I hate 'teh left' being blamed for all troofers and the like, (sheehan, code pink) in just the same way I consider the fringe right to not be representative of 'the right'.

660 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:07:47pm

re: #654 Aceofwhat?

heh. two requests for stats in thirty seconds. i'm only huuuman!

bwahahaha I know the feeling

661 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:08:18pm

re: #657 WindUpBird

That's fine. I'm honestly curious, if there's solid research that there's some subliminal attraction thing going on in the average person like that, I'd find it very interesting stuff.

Or frightening, if you have kids.

662 iceweasel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:09:41pm

re: #658 Aceofwhat?

Jesse Jackson was not, shall we say, an outlier amongst the African-American community when he was kind enough to bare his soul on the topic. IIRC, most African-Americans are considered "lefty".

Does that help?

If we're going to use his stupid comment about NYC from-- 1988, was it?-- to claim 'the left' has a special lock on antisemitism, it doesn't especially help, no.
That pretty much tanked Jesse forever with a lot of people on 'the left'.

663 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:09:43pm

re: #659 iceweasel

Exactly so. And I hate 'teh left' being blamed for all troofers and the like, (sheehan, code pink) in just the same way I consider the fringe right to not be representative of 'the right'.

At the same time, I don't mind correctly-worded generalizations like "the right tend to be more homophobic" when all of our observations tell us that it's true. I hate it, but it's true. Some of these things are tough to prove with stats.

664 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:10:40pm

re: #662 iceweasel

If we're going to use his stupid comment about NYC from-- 1988, was it?-- to claim 'the left' has a special lock on antisemitism, it doesn't especially help, no.
That pretty much tanked Jesse forever with a lot of people on 'the left'.

that's not really what i was going for, but i'm treading very carefully. i'd rather back down in most debates than overstep bounds. (trying to set a good example, don't you know!)

665 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:11:24pm

re: #661 Aceofwhat?

Or frightening, if you have kids.


I do not, so yeah, I'm not invested. ;-) If I had a kid, I tell you, the internet access in my house would be in a public space, on a desktop machine, and locked up tighter than the puzzle box in Hellraiser. I would NOT be that parent who just lets the kid dork around on the internet. Everything would be monitored, everything would be passworded. Obviously internet access is pervasive so it's not something that can ever be perfect, but I'm astonished at the shit kids get away with on the net.

666 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:12:32pm

re: #665 WindUpBird

I do not, so yeah, I'm not invested. ;-) If I had a kid, I tell you, the internet access in my house would be in a public space, on a desktop machine, and locked up tighter than the puzzle box in Hellraiser. I would NOT be that parent who just lets the kid dork around on the internet. Everything would be monitored, everything would be passworded. Obviously internet access is pervasive so it's not something that can ever be perfect, but I'm astonished at the shit kids get away with on the net.

you've accurately described the state of my domicile! you can't win every single battle, but you can fight like hell.

667 iceweasel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:12:36pm

re: #664 Aceofwhat?

that's not really what i was going for, but i'm treading very carefully. i'd rather back down in most debates than overstep bounds. (trying to set a good example, don't you know!)

Fair enough!
BTW, I kinda suspect the study you remember about sexual attraction and 10 yr olds refers to 10 yr olds themselves starting to experience sexual attraction or feelings. Just a guess, though.

668 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:13:40pm

re: #613 WindUpBird

I'd like for you to elaborate on this. If ten percent of the leadership of an organization is LGBT...then what? What prevailing ethos does it become?

I'm sitting down to supper, not avoiding you. BBL, promise.

669 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:13:59pm

re: #667 iceweasel

Fair enough!
BTW, I kinda suspect the study you remember about sexual attraction and 10 yr olds refers to 10 yr olds themselves starting to experience sexual attraction or feelings. Just a guess, though.

I don't think i'd have been so freaked out about it if that were the case, but maybe I just have a terribly high opinion of my reading comprehension skills and am afraid to have made the mistake!

I promise an honest accounting either way, and if i can't find it in 24hrs, i'll admit that i can't find it.

670 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:14:00pm

re: #667 iceweasel

Fair enough!
BTW, I kinda suspect the study you remember about sexual attraction and 10 yr olds refers to 10 yr olds themselves starting to experience sexual attraction or feelings. Just a guess, though.

THAT I can certainly believe.

671 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:14:36pm

re: #619 Aceofwhat?


I greatly disagree that a straight man is not more likely to prey on a 12-yo girl than a gay man. That's just absurd.

And again, that's not what I'm saying. Please reread what I've said, if that's actually what you took away from what I said. I'm saying that a pedophile doesn't act according to the same rules as heterosexual or gay attraction, so I do not believe that a openly gay man is any more likely to commit pedophilia with boys than random stranger X who claims that they are straight. Most pedophiles don't have any apparent adult sexuality.

I'm asking you to think about how this would work. A guy wants to be a scout leader. He's a pedophile. You ask him, "You're not gay, right?" He knows that gay men aren't allowed to be scout leaders. So he says, "No, I'm straight." The honest gay guy who says, "Yes,", you don't allow in. The only pedophiles it would prevent would be pedophiles who were also into adult men and who would honestly tell you that they were gay, even knowing that gay men weren't allowed to be troop leaders.

To me, that is the remote hypothetical situation.

672 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:16:07pm

re: #668 The Sanity Inspector

I'm sitting down to supper, not avoiding you. BBL, promise.

ok, no worries

673 Vambo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:17:35pm

re: #344 Shiplord Kirel

How is it "bitchy?" Can you explain these comments (not questions)? Are you asserting that I am part of the "socialist/underclass" or that I hate them because of what I have said about their self-appointed representatives, the CPUSA?

"rank and file workers and peasants" smacks of elitism.

674 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:18:16pm

re: #666 Aceofwhat?

you've accurately described the state of my domicile! you can't win every single battle, but you can fight like hell.

A good plan! Being a gamer probably would help in that regard, nothing focuses your computer knowledge like the fury of having a game you KNOW should work misbehaving. I was networking Atari STs (MID MAZE) and IPX PC games under DOS!

675 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:18:50pm

re: #671 Obdicut

And again, that's not what I'm saying. Please reread what I've said, if that's actually what you took away from what I said. I'm saying that a pedophile doesn't act according to the same rules as heterosexual or gay attraction, so I do not believe that a openly gay man is any more likely to commit pedophilia with boys than random stranger X who claims that they are straight. Most pedophiles don't have any apparent adult sexuality.

I'm asking you to think about how this would work. A guy wants to be a scout leader. He's a pedophile. You ask him, "You're not gay, right?" He knows that gay men aren't allowed to be scout leaders. So he says, "No, I'm straight." The honest gay guy who says, "Yes,", you don't allow in. The only pedophiles it would prevent would be pedophiles who were also into adult men and who would honestly tell you that they were gay, even knowing that gay men weren't allowed to be troop leaders.

To me, that is the remote hypothetical situation.

Yeah. Mr. X, who lives with a male parter, or dates, and is clear about his sexuality is statistically infinitely less likely to be a threat than Mr. Y, who, married or not, is interested in kids, not adults, and is unlikely to identify as gay. The problem is that Mr. X is much more identifiable than Mr. Y.

676 Vambo  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:19:21pm

Tea Party cries about (impeccable) depiction in Captain America comic, forces Marvel to apologize and retract references to "tea bag"

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

677 Kruk  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:21:58pm

re: #676 Vambo

Tea Party cries about (impeccable) depiction in Captain America comic, forces Marvel to apologize and retract references to "tea bag"

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Oh, man. I can forgive the initial "Teabag" cultural fail, but coming between a nerd and his comics books? That's a whole demographic lost to the GOP in one fell swooop. :D

678 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:22:54pm

re: #671 Obdicut

then if i understand you correctly, you would not be opposed to allowing straight men (who don't appear to be pedophiles) to lead your daughter's troop on an overnight trip?

679 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:24:04pm

re: #674 WindUpBird

A good plan! Being a gamer probably would help in that regard, nothing focuses your computer knowledge like the fury of having a game you KNOW should work misbehaving. I was networking Atari STs (MID MAZE) and IPX PC games under DOS!

You overestimate my competency. However, being a gamer has taught me that certain games do have much more inherent value than TV, so there is much more permission for certain types of video games in my house than TV watching or random internet surfing.

680 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:24:50pm

re: #677 Kruk

Oh, man. I can forgive the initial "Teabag" cultural fail, but coming between a nerd and his comics books? That's a whole demographic lost to the GOP in one fell swooop. :D

speaking of comics, one of my favorite things on the web is Superdickery and its insane collection of hilarious, inexplicable or just plain horrible comic covers.

681 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:27:05pm

re: #679 Aceofwhat?

You overestimate my competency. However, being a gamer has taught me that certain games do have much more inherent value than TV, so there is much more permission for certain types of video games in my house than TV watching or random internet surfing.

I put Rock Band in that category, especially if one is playing drums. 8-)

Also, any hardcore grand startegy game like Hearts of Iron, or any hyper-complex sim game like Dwarf Fortress. Though I don't think kids are the demo for DF or HoE. :D

682 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:27:11pm

re: #678 Aceofwhat?

Yes. If there were two of them, and I'd had a chance to meet them and vet them first.

I wouldn't let a single adult take kids on a camping trip, ever.

683 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:27:13pm

re: #671 Obdicut

I'll continue. I hate to bring up "To Catch a Predator", but how many of those dudes do you think were gay? You know, the ones trolling for a 12-14yo girl?

684 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:28:05pm

re: #682 Obdicut

Yes. If there were two of them, and I'd had a chance to meet them and vet them first.

Ok. I wouldn't. I'm comfortable agreeing to disagree with you there.

685 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:28:21pm

re: #679 Aceofwhat?

Good on ya. Get them hooked on Dwarf Fortress. Use the Mayday version. They'll either hate you or love you for it.

686 Kruk  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:28:31pm

re: #679 Aceofwhat?

You overestimate my competency. However, being a gamer has taught me that certain games do have much more inherent value than TV, so there is much more permission for certain types of video games in my house than TV watching or random internet surfing.

Being a gamer has taught me:

Hoard everything: You never when that seemingly useless object you've been carrying in your backpack for weeks will save your life.

All's fair in love, war and epic level raids.

Give me a fast Internet connection, for I intend to go in harm's way.

687 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:29:36pm

re: #681 WindUpBird

I put Rock Band in that category, especially if one is playing drums. 8-)

Also, any hardcore grand startegy game like Hearts of Iron, or any hyper-complex sim game like Dwarf Fortress. Though I don't think kids are the demo for DF or HoE. :D

there are some mystery games that my kids absolutely die to play with my mom and sister. clues, pattern recognition, etc...video games (the right ones, at least) are such an upgrade for my kids' generation over TV.

688 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:29:52pm

re: #685 Obdicut

Good on ya. Get them hooked on Dwarf Fortress. Use the Mayday version. They'll either hate you or love you for it.

Did Windy tell you he often has DF in one window and LGF in the other? :D

689 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:30:43pm

re: #685 Obdicut

Good on ya. Get them hooked on Dwarf Fortress. Use the Mayday version. They'll either hate you or love you for it.

heh. either way, it's 1000% better than letting her watch another rerun of "The Nanny". I'm going to kill my wife for telling her she'd like that show.

690 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:31:17pm

re: #686 Kruk

That makes me think of the Bone Combs from Wizardry 7.

691 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:32:51pm

re: #687 Aceofwhat?

there are some mystery games that my kids absolutely die to play with my mom and sister. clues, pattern recognition, etc...video games (the right ones, at least) are such an upgrade for my kids' generation over TV.

I certainly preferred games to TV! They were more primitive graphically, but still really deep. How much time did I spend playing Universe II, Roadwar 2000 and Sundog when I was a kid...

692 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:33:23pm

re: #683 Aceofwhat?

You're still not getting me in regards to that; my objection is practical. Did you read the whole 'How would it work?' part? Do you see any flaws in the logic?

693 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:35:56pm

re: #688 WindUpBird

I just lost a 100-dwarf fortress with a magma cannon to save corruption. I'm sad.

However, new version... soon.

When soon? Soon.

694 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:38:01pm

re: #686 Kruk

Being a gamer has taught me:

Hoard everything: You never when that seemingly useless object you've been carrying in your backpack for weeks will save your life.

All's fair in love, war and epic level raids.

Give me a fast Internet connection, for I intend to go in harm's way.

It has taught me:

Sniper rifles are always found in the vents or on the roofs of buildings.

All barrels of toxic waste are highly explosive.

Race cars are all actually made out of styrofoam

When the Orz tell you *IT IS DANCING* then they are probably about to star dancing on your grave with lots of bullets.

695 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:38:33pm

re: #693 Obdicut

I just lost a 100-dwarf fortress with a magma cannon to save corruption. I'm sad.

However, new version... soon.

When soon? Soon.

The cleansing power of Lava!

696 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:40:21pm

re: #694 WindUpBird

All barrels of toxic waste are highly explosive.

Ever read this web comic?

697 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:41:21pm

re: #692 Obdicut

You're still not getting me in regards to that; my objection is practical. Did you read the whole 'How would it work?' part? Do you see any flaws in the logic?

background checks and references reveal much. it's hard to find a pedophile who has either yet to strike or has hidden their tracks well, IMHO. it's easier to find a gay who has come out in any way but lying about it on the application. so there is some practicality to the background and reference checks.

698 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:44:35pm

re: #694 WindUpBird

It has taught me:

Sniper rifles are always found in the vents or on the roofs of buildings.

All barrels of toxic waste are highly explosive.

Race cars are all actually made out of styrofoam

When the Orz tell you *IT IS DANCING* then they are probably about to star dancing on your grave with lots of bullets.

-Learn to shoot heads.

-Always go the opposite direction of your objective before you go to your objective, because there lies treasure.

-Well-timed melee attacks are both helpful for creating space for your next shot and a real pleasure to deliver.

-Don't build your character to be teh awesome. Build your character to do the things that you'll have the most fun doing. Difficulty be damned.

699 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:45:52pm

bbl. sushi discussion upstairs makes me abandon possible customer call in favor of home and food.

thanks to all for entertaining such a sensitive topic. we all managed to get a little worked up without hurting any feelings. doesn't get much better than that-

700 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:47:11pm

re: #697 Aceofwhat?

it's hard to find a pedophile who has either yet to strike or has hidden their tracks well, IMHO.

If there's one thing you take away from this conversation, please know: That is not true. There are many, many pedophiles who operate for years and years before they're exposed. It's more the norm than not-- and not just in the Catholic church. And most pedophiles have no adult sexual relationships, and so you'd have no litmus test for their sexuality in that way-- not that I think such a test would be useful.

I encourage background and reference checks, but if you believe them to 'reveal much', why wouldn't they reveal any openly gay men who were pedophiles in addition to any men who claimed to be straight but were pedophiles?

Here's a great study I've been trying to find this whole conversation:

[Link: psychology.ucdavis.edu...]

701 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:57:14pm

re: #696 Slumbering Behemoth

Ever read this web comic?

ahahahahah I have not! it's all done with Gary's Mod, I see :D

702 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 3:59:56pm

re: #697 Aceofwhat?

background checks and references reveal much. it's hard to find a pedophile who has either yet to strike or has hidden their tracks well, IMHO. it's easier to find a gay who has come out in any way but lying about it on the application. so there is some practicality to the background and reference checks.

Not to get all with the personal anecdotes, but I know people who were abused as kids, in a couple cases I knew the adults who abused them. And nobody ever knew. And they didn't read as gay, didn't have any interest in gay adults ever. Suburban hard-working family man types.

703 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 4:01:03pm

re: #698 Aceofwhat?

-Learn to shoot heads.

-Always go the opposite direction of your objective before you go to your objective, because there lies treasure.

-Well-timed melee attacks are both helpful for creating space for your next shot and a real pleasure to deliver.

-Don't build your character to be teh awesome. Build your character to do the things that you'll have the most fun doing. Difficulty be damned.

Are you playing Fallout 3 right now? :D

704 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 4:01:39pm

re: #701 WindUpBird

A lot of it is laugh out loud funny. They get into the exploding barrel phenomenon at some point.

705 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 4:08:32pm

re: #672 WindUpBird

ok, no worries

...and now I'm dashing off this pearl of wisdom before taking the kids out to basketball practice...sold by pith, not volume...coherence may have settled during shipping...

Right...*cracks knuckles*...

I wasn't speaking hypothetically, but about what actually happened over the past few decades in many American Catholic seminaries. (The particular writer I mentioned pinned the rap on Vatican II, but I'm no authority to judge one way or another.) Over the decades they came to see themselves less as charged with educating candidates in Catholic doctrine and character, and more as being agents of various stripes of social transformation, gay liberation being among them. So, with that mindset at the helm, more and more candidates who felt likewise were admitted, along with some who turned out to be abusers, even as more traditionalist applicants were turned away. The Church, having caved on this point, didn't have the stomach to deal seriously with the abusers once they came to their notice. Things blew up in 2002, everyone blamed the Catholic Church for not policing its members, and at least one victim later killed himself, because of what had happened to him.

Yes, the Catholic Church is to blame for the abuses, because it's their name that's over the doorways, and they are responsible for what goes on in their name. But IMO the sooner the Lavender Mafia can be separated from positions of influence within the seminaries, the better.

...hope that made sense, agree or disagree. Gotta go, will respond to any reply later.

706 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 4:14:59pm

re: #705 The Sanity Inspector

I think that's a whitewash of the Church's responsibilities, and does a lot to blame gay men for the actions of pedophiles.

It also ignores the most obvious reason that Catholic priests have a high rate of pedophilia; the job description includes being highly sexually abnormal.

707 iceweasel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 5:21:14pm

re: #706 Obdicut

I think that's a whitewash of the Church's responsibilities, and does a lot to blame gay men for the actions of pedophiles.

It also ignores the most obvious reason that Catholic priests have a high rate of pedophilia; the job description includes being highly sexually abnormal.

Updinged you, but one minor caveat here: I think the restrictions put on the clergy are what's sexually abnormal-- life of total celibacy, etc.
There are lots of good people in the clergy who manage to live within those strictures and never harm anyone and do a lot of good.
Unfortunately, a lot of otherwise good people are barred from the religious life or won't enter it, because of those strictures. And for various reasons in what we can call the corporate climate, abusers have been protected, when not fostered.

708 iceweasel  Thu, Feb 11, 2010 5:23:49pm

re: #683 Aceofwhat?

I'll continue. I hate to bring up "To Catch a Predator", but how many of those dudes do you think were gay? You know, the ones trolling for a 12-14yo girl?

There's a lot of problems with the whole "Catch a Predator" setup, as well as that group they work with-- perverted justice or whatever they call themselves. A name which is appropriate in ways which they doubtless did not intend.
In any case, I think it's orthogonal to the issues here.

PS Obdicut-- thanks for the UCdavis link.


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Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
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Why Did More Than 1,000 People Die After Police Subdued Them With Force That Isn’t Meant to Kill? An investigation led by The Associated Press has found that, over a decade, more than 1,000 people died after police subdued them through physical holds, stun guns, body blows and other force not intended to be lethal. More: Why ...
Cheechako
2 hours ago
Views: 28 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
A Closer Look at the Eastman State Bar DecisionTaking a few minutes away from work things to read through the Eastman decision. As I'm sure many of you know, Eastman was my law school con law professor. I knew him pretty well because I was also running in ...
KGxvi
6 hours ago
Views: 80 • Comments: 1 • Rating: 1