Book of the Week: Wingnuts

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External Image — a subject near to my heart, especially recently. (And somewhere in there you’ll even find a paragraph featuring a quote from your humble narrator, i.e., me.)

One of the central themes of the book:

I am not a Democrat. I am not a Republican. I’m an American. I believe the far left and far right are equally insane. But in the opening years of the Obama administration, the Wingnuts on the right have been screaming the loudest.

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1276 comments

1 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:38:55pm

Malice of forethought?

2 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:39:20pm

I heard this guy on "the Morning Joe" a coupla days ago... seemed OK to me.

3 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:39:47pm

well get a load of that...someone who discounts parties and still maintains some political perspective...my new hero

4 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:41:18pm

I read some of the Amazon reviews. Moonbats and wingnuts both hate this book. One moonbat is outraged, outraged I tell you! to see Keith Olbermann grouped together with Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin.

5 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:41:24pm

Available on Kindle, Charles?

6 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:44:06pm

I have long lamented that one extreme position be it guns, abortion or what have you creates an equal but opposite position ... I think I will read this book.

7 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:44:42pm

re: #5 Cato the Elder

Available on Kindle, Charles?

I'm surprised you did correct my #1. I noticed my mistake after posting it.

8 Cathypop  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:45:01pm

Good for Jon Avlon. Somebody has got to expose the lunitics. Right or Left we normal ones do not want to be attached to these IDIOTS!

9 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:46:01pm

re: #8 Cathypop

Good for Jon Avlon. Somebody has got to expose the lunitics. Right or Left we normal ones do not want to be attached to these IDIOTS!

Bravo.

10 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:46:16pm

re: #7 Walter L. Newton

I'm surprised you did correct my #1. I noticed my mistake after posting it.

should have been with rather than of

11 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:47:03pm

re: #8 Cathypop

Good for Jon Avlon. Somebody has got to expose the lunitics. Right or Left we normal ones do not want to be attached to these IDIOTS!

don't be then...it's a pretty easy thing not to do

12 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:48:08pm

re: #6 brookly red

I have long lamented that one extreme position be it guns, abortion or what have you creates an equal but opposite position ... I think I will read this book.

he probably did all his research here at LGF

13 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:48:28pm

/OK, that was refreshing... now can we get back to partisan infighting? I don't have all night here...

14 Bubblehead II  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:49:41pm

"I am not a Democrat. I am not a Republican. I’m an American."

Add in your various race/sexual orientation/whatever for the strike outs. The last three words say it all. Why can't these people see that?

15 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:50:45pm

re: #12 albusteve

he probably did all his research here at LGF

well normally I would accuse you of brown nosing, but there is a very good chance you may be right :)

16 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:50:46pm

I agree with what this book says. Now if only those commie Democrats would figure it out...

17 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:51:21pm

On the left and on the right, we hear people claiming to be "beyond" the old categories of left and right, liberal and conservative. These are the beyondists. They are usually liberals running away from the sour smell of liberalism far beyond its sell-by date. And beyondists are sometimes conservatives wanting to distance themselves from the stereotypes of conservatism. In either case, they typically represent only more of what they say they are beyond. The language of beyondism has to do not with substance but with salesmanship. Beyondism keeps returning us to where the arguments began. ... If someone proposes to you a position that is beyond left and right, you can be almost certain he’s peddling a gussied-up
liberalism or conservatism. Beyondism is a shell game.
-- Richard John Neuhaus

18 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:52:05pm

re: #15 brookly red

well normally I would accuse you of brown nosing, but there is a very good chance you may be right :)

I only brown nose for a John Hiatt music post...and there was one

19 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:52:51pm

re: #16 cliffster

I agree with what this book says. Now if only those commie Democrats would figure it out...

you seem to miss the point, again.

20 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:53:06pm

Charles is on pages 174-175, according to the index.

21 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:53:35pm

I'm so sorry Alice Cooper and the classic song '18'

Lines form on my face and hands
Lines form from the ups and downs
I´m in the middle, without any plans
I´m a boy and I´m a man.

I´m a wingnut
And I don´t know what I want
wingnut
I just don´t know what I want
wingnut
I gotta get away
wingnut
I gotta get out of this place
I´ll go runnin´ in outer space
Oh yeah.

I got a
Baby´s brain and an old man´s heart
Took eighteen years to get this far
Don´t always know what I´m talkin´ about
Feels like I´m livin´ in the middle of doubt
Cause I´m a wingnut
I get confused every day
wingnut
I just don´t know what to say
wingnut
I gotta get away.

22 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:53:51pm

re: #6 brookly red

I have long lamented that one extreme position be it guns, abortion or what have you creates an equal but opposite position ... I think I will read this book.

As will I.

23 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:54:11pm

I'd argue not just "screaming the loudest" but having the most effect on their party's policy. That said good job speaking truth to power all around...

24 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:54:37pm

re: #17 The Sanity Inspector

On the left and on the right, we hear people claiming to be "beyond" the old categories of left and right, liberal and conservative. These are the beyondists. They are usually liberals running away from the sour smell of liberalism far beyond its sell-by date. And beyondists are sometimes conservatives wanting to distance themselves from the stereotypes of conservatism. In either case, they typically represent only more of what they say they are beyond. The language of beyondism has to do not with substance but with salesmanship. Beyondism keeps returning us to where the arguments began. ... If someone proposes to you a position that is beyond left and right, you can be almost certain he’s peddling a gussied-up
liberalism or conservatism. Beyondism is a shell game.
-- Richard John Neuhaus

Smacks of populist hopenchange.

25 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:54:43pm

re: #22 Dark_Falcon

As will I.

note I said read, not buy...

26 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:55:35pm

re: #4 Alouette

I read some of the Amazon reviews. Moonbats and wingnuts both hate this book. One moonbat is outraged, outraged I tell you! to see Keith Olbermann grouped together with Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin.

I once upon a time would have been outraged, but then I heard what he said about Scott Brown (Via Jon Stewart I'll admit) and now I'll say while he doesn't seem as dangerous as Beck, he's doubtlessly just as nuts....

27 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:55:56pm

re: #23 jamesfirecat

I'd argue not just "screaming the loudest" but having the most effect on their party's policy. That said good job speaking truth to power all around...

truth is power sometimes.

28 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:57:28pm

re: #26 jamesfirecat

I once upon a time would have been outraged, but then I heard what he said about Scott Brown (Via Jon Stewart I'll admit) and now I'll say while he doesn't seem as dangerous as Beck, he's doubtlessly just as nuts...

what's nuts is the fact that voters have made him relevant...same with the others

29 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:58:00pm

re: #27 brookly red

truth is power sometimes.

Sometimes, but often not. More often loudness and conviction overpower truth. Most people will follow the leader who is seems to be the strongest.

30 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:58:48pm

re: #28 albusteve

what's nuts is the fact that voters have made him relevant...same with the others

aaaah the voters... damn how they always seem to get in the way.

31 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:59:38pm

re: #7 Walter L. Newton

I'm surprised you did correct my #1. I noticed my mistake after posting it.

I thought that was a clever Walter pun!

32 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:59:55pm

re: #29 Dark_Falcon

Sometimes, but often not. More often loudness and conviction overpower truth. Most people will follow the leader who is seems to be the strongest.

America loves a winner.....

Though doubtlessly Paton (if he actually said those words) didn't mean them in quite such a cynical tone.....

33 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 4:59:59pm

re: #29 Dark_Falcon

Sometimes, but often not. More often loudness and conviction overpower truth. Most people will follow the leader who is seems to be the strongest.

what is strongest?..the best campaign machine?...the most money?....I vote for the best hair..and teeth...good teeth is power itself

34 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:00:37pm

re: #20 Floral Giraffe

Charles is on pages 174-175, according to the index.

With that info, and the link to Amazon, I was able to read the paragraph!

35 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:02:03pm

re: #33 albusteve

what is strongest?..the best campaign machine?...the most money?...I vote for the best hair..and teeth...good teeth is power itself

Yep, nothing worse for a pol than a missing front tooth.

36 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:02:34pm

Seems to me that we are in an age of extremism. We've been there for at least a decade now, perhaps longer. Both Left and Right are radicalized, radicalizing, and absolutely certain that the OTHER guy is the real radical.

37 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:03:07pm

re: #35 Spare O'Lake

Yep, nothing worse for a pol than a missing front tooth.

depends on the state and the office, seems to me.

In the land of the dentured, the one-toothed man is king. Or something.

38 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:03:34pm

OT -

Charles has given me permission to examine some of the programming code and data that has been used by Climate Research Unit at East Anglia University for their climate modeling. My information comes from material that was “hacked” from the CRU servers in Britain and released to the public. This material included program code, databases, private emails and documents. Charles indicated that I could use anything I deemed necessary to make my case.

re: #723 Charles

OK, then go ahead and post whatever you think makes your case. I seriously doubt that you're going to be able to show an "inaccuracy," which is what you claimed. And quibbling over quick and dirty methods used to parse a flat file is not the same thing as demonstrating that the code produced inaccurate results.

The legacy program suite and databases that are discussed below have nothing to do with “quick and dirty methods used to parse a flat file.” It has to do with the legacy data modeling software that CRU had used since at least the 1990’s and the datadases that were produced by these legacy programs. As part of Charles’ permission, he stated…

re: #731 Charles

And for your part, you have to prove that a section of code actually produced inaccurate or mistaken results. Not simply that it could have done so. Because that's what you claimed.

As Charles said “I seriously doubt that you're going to be able to show an "inaccuracy,"” Charles may be right. I wasn’t at CRU, I didn’t see the actual data from the time it was generated till the time it appeared in a report or paper (or disappeared), no more than Charles actually saw William Shakespeare pen any of his plays. In the same way Charles could use the historical records to prove Shakespeare did create all of those wonderful plays, I am going to use the historical record of the programmer who was responsible for maintaining, modifying and correcting the legacy programs at CRU who can show us the inaccuracies he found. Meet Mr. Ian “Harry” Harris.

(end part 1)

39 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:03:57pm

(Part 2)

Who is Ian “Harry” Harris? He is a staff member at the Climatic Research Unit at East Anglia University. His short bio on the CRU staff page says this… “Dendroclimatology, climate scenario development, data manipulation and visualisation, programming.” ([Link: www.cru.uea.ac.uk...] He was tasked with maintaining, modifying and rewriting programs from the existing climate modeling software suite that existed at CRU since at least the 1990’s. He kept copious notes of his progress from 2006 through 2009, including his notes and comments internally in the programs themselves and in a 314 page document named “harry_read_me.txt.” If you revel in the minutia of programmer’s notes you can easily find this document on the internet.

I will document 4 different aspects of Ian “Harry” Harris’ notes

1) General comments, inaccurate data bases
2) CRU Time Series 3.0 dataset
3) a RUN dialog
4) Faulty code

Quotes are verbatim, including typos, misspellings and language differences… any other mistakes are mine.

(end part 2)

40 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:04:36pm

re: #36 Guanxi88

Seems to me that we are in an age of extremism. We've been there for at least a decade now, perhaps longer. Both Left and Right are radicalized, radicalizing, and absolutely certain that the OTHER guy is the real radical.

I'd argue (proving your point that both sides want to point fingers) that I feel the left isn't quite as radical as the right, as the Code Pink/Communists don't have their own major news network cheering them on the way the Tea Party people have Faux News.....

41 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:04:40pm

re: #37 Guanxi88

depends on the state and the office, seems to me.

In the land of the dentured, the one-toothed man is king. Or something.

in the land of the indentured, teeth don't count....move those rocks, build that wall

42 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:04:55pm

OK this is a good thread to post the new website of the Modern Whig Party.

Check out the centrist Modern Whig Party, and if you like what you see, please consider joining.

43 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:05:03pm

re: #34 wrenchwench

With that info, and the link to Amazon, I was able to read the paragraph!

...and the following ones, which look like one of LGF's "We Got Mail!" posts, but with the mail addressed to Kathleen Parker. NSFW.

44 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:05:26pm

(Part 3)

1) General comments from the “harry_read_me.txt.” about the CRU programs and data.

Here is Ian “Harry” Harris talking about both the legacy programs and legacy climate databases and the new data he is trying to create.

“Oh GOD if I could start this project again and actually argue the case for junking the inherited program suite!!”

WLN note: This is the program suite that has been generating data for years for CRU and staff.

...knowing how long it takes to debug this suite - the experiment endeth here. The option (like all the anomdtb options) is totally undocumented so we'll never know what we lost.”

WLN note: Remember, Dr. Phil Jones, head of CRU initially said they never lost any data.

“Sounds familiar, if worrying. am I the first person to attempt to get the CRU databases in working order?!! The program pulls no punches. I had already found that tmx.0702091313.dtb had seven more stations than tmn.0702091313.dtb, but that hadn't prepared me for the grisly truth:”

“Getting seriously fed up with the state of the Australian data. so many new stations have been introduced, so many false references.. so many changes that aren't documented. Every time a cloud forms I'm presented with a bewildering selection of similar-sounding sites, some with references, some with WMO codes, and some with both. And if I look up the station metadata with one of the local references, chances are the WMO code will be wrong (another station will have it) and the lat/lon will be wrong too.”

WLN note: How were they generating temperature data on their world grid in the past if they couldn’t even match up stations?

“I am very sorry to report that the rest of the databases seem to be in nearly as poor a state as Australia was. There are hundreds if not thousands of pairs of dummy stations, one with no WMO and one with, usually overlapping and with the same station name and very similar coordinates. I know it could be old and new stations, but why such large overlaps if that's the case? Aarrggghhh!”
“So.. should I really go to town (again) and allow the Master database to be 'fixed' by this program? Quite honestly I don't have time - but it just shows the state our data holdings have drifted into. Who added those two series together? When? Why? Untraceable, except anecdotally. It's the same story for many other Russian stations, unfortunately - meaning that (probably) there was a full Russian update that did no data integrity checking at all. I just hope it's restricted to Russia!!”

WLN note: Fixed? What does that mean? And why the quotes? This is live data Ian is talking about.

“This still meant an awful lot of encounters with naughty Master stations, when really I suspect nobody else gives a hoot about. So with a somewhat cynical shrug, I added the nuclear option - to match every WMO possible, and turn the rest into new stations (er, CLIMAT excepted). In other words, what CRU usually do. It will allow bad databases to pass unnoticed, and good databases to become bad, but I really don't think people care enough to fix 'em, and it's the main reason the project is nearly a year late.”

WLN note: This is about the strongest statement Ian makes about the state of the data at CRU

“The big question must be, why does it have so little representation in the low numbers? Especially given that I'm rounding erroneous negatives up to 1!! Oh, sod it. It'll do. I don't think I can justify spending any longer on a dataset, the previous version of which was completely wrong (misnamed) and nobody noticed for five years.”

45 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:05:30pm

re: #33 albusteve

what is strongest?..the best campaign machine?...the most money?...I vote for the best hair..and teeth...good teeth is power itself

well I would kinda like a job... I know I am just 1 of 20 million winers who is too stupid to understand the brilliance of the nuance of the new social awareness... but in my ignorance could lash out.

46 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:05:32pm

re: #35 Spare O'Lake

Yep, nothing worse for a pol than a missing front tooth.

fff...fffff...ff

47 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:05:52pm

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]
[Link: www.haaretz.com...]
A Top Hamas commander - snuffed out in Dubai. Suffocated, in fact.

And it looks to have been done by Arabs, if Hamas statements are to be believed:

"A preliminary investigation conducted by Hamas suggests that the assassination of one of its officials in Dubai last month was likely carried out by agents of an Arab government, and not by Israel's Mossad spy agency."

Just a bit of perspective - we haven't reached this degree of radicalization yet.

48 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:06:04pm

“This was used to inform the Fortran conversion programs by indicating the latitude-potential_sun and sun-to-cloud relationships. It also assisted greatly in understanding what was wrong – Tim was in fact calculating Cloud Percent, despite calling it Sun Percent!! Just awful.”

WLN note: Dr. Tim Osborn or Dr. Tim Mitchell? CRU - [Link: www.cru.uea.ac.uk...]

“They aren't percentage anomalies! They are percentage anomalies /10. This could explain why the real data areas had variability 10x too low. BUT it shouldn't be - they should be regular percentage anomalies! This whole process is too convoluted and created myriad problems of this kind. I really think we should change it.”

“Am I the first person to attempt to get the CRU databases in working order?!!”

“Right, time to stop pussyfooting around the niceties of Tim's labyrinthine software suites - let's have a go at producing CRU TS 3.0! since failing to do that will be the definitive failure of the entire project..”

“OH FUCK THIS. It's Sunday evening, I've worked all weekend, and just when I thought it was done I'm hitting yet another problem that's based on the hopeless state of our databases. There is no uniform data integrity, it's just a catalogue of issues that continues to grow as they're found.”

Remember, he is talking about legacy programs and legacy data.

(end part 3)

49 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:06:47pm

(Part 4)

2) About the CRU Time Series 3.0 dataset.

Remember all the comments I posted here about HARCRUT3 dataset, which contains global temperature readings from 1850 onward and the possible problems with the data in that database. Well, HADCRUT3 is built from CRUTEM3 and the Hadley SST data. CRUTEM3 is built partially from CRU TS 3.0 which is mentioned above. And much of the data used for climate modeling in the past was contained in earlier versions of this data table CRU TS 2.1, CRU TS 2.0, CRU TS 1.1 and CRU TS 1.0… table used for earlier climate models. (see history of CRU TS at [Link: csi.cgiar.org...]

Evidently Ian “Harry” Harris managed to finally produce the dataset CRU TS 3.0 and here is a question from Dr Daniel Kingston, addressed to “Tim.”

So, you release a dataset that people have been clamouring for, and the buggers only start using it! And finding problems. For instance:

Hi Tim (good start! -ed)

I realise you are likely to be very busy at the moment, but we have come across something in the CRU TS 3.0 data set which I hope you can help out with.

We have been looking at the monthly precipitation totals over southern Africa (Angola, to be precise), and have found some rather large differences between precipitation as specified in the TS 2.1 data set, and the new TS 3.0 version. Specifically, April 1967 for the cell 12.75 south, 16.25 east, the monthly total in the TS 2.1 data set is 251mm, whereas in TS 3.0 it is 476mm.

The anomaly does not only appear in this cell, but also in a number of neighbouring cells. This is quite a large difference, and the new TS 3.0 value doesn't entirely tie in with what we might have expected from the station-based precip data we have for this area.

Would it be possible for you could have a quick look into this issue?

Many thanks,

Dr Daniel Kingston
Post Doctoral Research Associate
Department of Geography
University College London

And here is Ian “Harry” Harris’ answer.

Well, it's a good question! And it took over two weeks to answer. I wrote angola.m, which pretty much established that three local stations had been augmented for 3.0, and that April 1967 was anomalously wet. Lots of non-reporting stations (ie too few years to form normals) also had high values. As part of this, I also wrote angola3.m, which added two rather interesting plots: the climatology, and the output from the Fortran gridder I'd just completed. This raised a couple of points of interest:

1. The 2.10 output doesn't look like the climatology, despite there being no stations in the area. It ought to have simply relaxed to the clim, instead it's wetter.

2. The gridder output is lower than 3.0, and much lower than the stations!

I asked Tim and Phil about 1., they couldn't give a definitive opinion. As for 2., their guesses were correct, I needed to mod the distance weighting. As usual, see gridder.sandpit for the full info.

So to CLOUD. For over a year, rumours have been circulating that money had been found to pay somebody for a month to recreate Mark New's coefficients. But it never quite gelled. Now, at last, someone's producing them! Unfortunately.. it's me.

The idea is to derive the coefficients (for the regressing of cloud against DTR) using the published 2.10 data. We'll use 5-degree blocks and years 1951-2002, then produce coefficients for each 5-degree latitude band and month. Finally, we'll interpolate to get half-degree coefficients. Apparently.

50 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:07:01pm

re: #40 jamesfirecat

I'd argue (proving your point that both sides want to point fingers) that I feel the left isn't quite as radical as the right, as the Code Pink/Communists don't have their own major news network cheering them on the way the Tea Party people have Faux News...

See, and from the Right, I'd say that whereas we have known Reds and worse hob-nobbing in the elite circles of Leftist power, we have vanishingly few Phalangists or Minutemen in similar positions on the Right.

51 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:07:16pm

Lots of 'issues'. We need to exclude 'background' stations - those that were relaxed to the climatology. This is hard to detect because the climatology consists of valid values, so testing for equivalence isn't enough. It might have to be the station files *shudder*.

Using station files was OK, actually. A bigger problem was the inclusion of strings of consecutive, identical values (for cloud and/or dtr). Not sure what the source is, as they are not == to the climatology (ie the anoms are not 0). Discussed with Phil - decided to
try excluding any cell with a string like that of >10 values. Cloud only for now. The result of that was, unfortunately, the loss of several output values,

(end part 4)

52 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:07:33pm

(Part 5)

3) Run dialogs

Ian “Harry” Harris did a very good job of documenting his different “runs” of the programs, clipping and pasting the “run time dialog” into his “harry_read_me.txt.” document. Run time dialog is the text, messages and input prompts that appear on the screen when you run the program. You can see below that the original programmers of the CRU program suite had a “lively” style of informative messages to the end user. Here is a message you get when running an “update” program to merge temperature reporting stations.

Before we get started, an important question: If you are merging an update - CLIMAT, MCDW, Australian - do you want the quick and dirty approach? This will blindly match on WMO codes alone, ignoring data/metadata checks, and making any unmatched updates into new stations (metadata permitting)?

Enter 'B' for blind merging, or : B

Do you know what this program produced? Bad records, an incomplete dataset. Records with station identifiers missing, stations duplicated, no checks for missing data. And if the program had data it didn’t know what to do with, it turned the data into a new station, even if it didn’t really know what that data was in reference to.

Remember, these are the legacy programs that CRU used to generate data. These were live programs, live data. Ian “Harry” Harris was trying to fix and modify these programs, because many of them produced invalid data.

(end part 5)

53 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:07:50pm

(Part 6)

4) Example of faulty code.

Here is one example, from Ian “Harry” Harris, about an already existing function, one that had been used to generated data in the past.

Back to precip, it seems the variability is too low. This points to a problem with the percentage anomaly routines. See earlier escapades - will the Curse of Tim never be lifted?

A reminder. I started off using a 'conventional' calculation

absgrid(ilon(i),ilat(i)) = nint(normals(i,imo) + * anoms(ilon(i),ilat(i)) * normals(i,imo)
/ 100) which is: V = N + AN/100

This was shown to be delivering unrealistic values, so I went back to anomdtb to see how the anomalies were contructed in the first place, and found this:

DataA(XAYear,XMonth,XAStn) = nint(1000.0*((real(DataA(XAYear,XMonth,XAStn)) / & real(NormMean(XMonth,XAStn)))-1.0)) which is: A = 1000((V/N)-1)

So, I reverse engineered that to get this: V = N(A+1000)/1000

And that is apparently also delivering incorrect values. Bwaaaahh!!

Harry eventually fixed this, so in the future it would produce accurate data, but one wonders how many times data was pushed through this formula in the past and how much invalid data was generated from this faulty function.

(end part 6)

54 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:08:14pm

(Part 7)

Afterward;

Remember Ian “Harry” Harris was working on a legacy program suite, not some “quick and dirty methods.” A suite of programs and datasets used by CRU for climate modeling and in use for many years. If you want to, read his 314 pages of notes that detail better than I could all of the problems he ran into trying to work with those existing legacy programs.

Does this information presented here disprove AGW? Of course not. There are many other scientific organizations besides the CRU. But it does highlight, with provable facts that the CRU in themselves have been responsible for bad data, bad programs and as we have seen by the dust up about the ignored Freedom of Information Act requests that was issued to CRU, responsible for trying to cover up their mistakes. This is bad science and unfair to all the honest scientist the world over who are diligently working on honest climate science.

Addendum:

You have to give Ian “Harry” Harris a lot of credit. Evidently he has been responsible for cleaning up a lot of the mistakes that have existed in climate based datasets in the past. This little narrative represents some of his work with NCEP/NCAR Reanalysis. (National Centers for Environmental Prediction – NOAA - [Link: www.ncep.noaa.gov...]

[Link: www.cru.uea.ac.uk...]

1948-1957 Data Added (Ian Harris, 22 Jul 2008)
2007 Data Added (Ian Harris, 17 Apr 2008)
2006 Data Added (Ian Harris, 11 Mar 2007)
2005 Data Added (Ian Harris, 13 Jan 2006)
2004 Data Added (Ian Harris, 28 Nov 2005)
2003 Data Added (Ian Harris, 11 May 2004)
SURFACE TEMPERATURE ADDED (Ian Harris, 10 December 2003)
WARNING NOTE ADDED FOR SURFACE FLUX TEMPERATURES (Ian Harris, 10 December 2003)
ALL DATASETS UPDATED TO 2002 (Ian Harris, 23 June 2003)
LAND/SEA MASKS ADDED (Ian Harris, 16 December 2002)
Land/Sea Masks for regular and Gaussian grids have been added.
NEW WINDOW ONLINE (Ian Harris, 9 July 2002)
The new Quarter-Spherical Window (0N-90N; 90W-90E) is now in use (see table below).

The old window data (here) has now been entirely replaced.
Please address any requests for new variables to me.
BAD DATA REPLACED (Ian Harris, 23 May 2002)
The TOVS Problem has been resolved and only corrected data appears on this site.

Anyone wishing to access the old (potentially incorrect) data in order to evaluate the extent of the problem should contact me.

The last entry in that narrative is interesting.

References.

Download this essay in PDF format Download Ian Harris' 314 pages of programmers notes in PDF format

(end comment 7)

55 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:08:38pm

re: #35 Spare O'Lake

Yep, nothing worse for a pol than a missing front tooth.

except for one missing a backbone.

57 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:09:52pm

re: #56 Walter L. Newton

PIMF, Walter

58 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:09:53pm

re: #56 Walter L. Newton

rock on hommie...

59 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:10:07pm

re: #40 jamesfirecat

I'd argue (proving your point that both sides want to point fingers) that I feel the left isn't quite as radical as the right, as the Code Pink/Communists don't have their own major news network cheering them on the way the Tea Party people have Faux News...

re: #50 Guanxi88

See, and from the Right, I'd say that whereas we have known Reds and worse hob-nobbing in the elite circles of Leftist power, we have vanishingly few Phalangists or Minutemen in similar positions on the Right.

And let me add, the radicalization under way is precisely because the Right sees Reds and the Left sees Nazis on the other side.

It's a damned tricky state of affairs, because, of course, there's some (limited) truth to both sides.

60 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:10:33pm

re: #42 Ojoe

OK this is a good thread to post the new website of the Modern Whig Party.

Check out the centrist Modern Whig Party, and if you like what you see, please consider joining.

I don't like your stance that Roe V Wade should be repealed to let things instead be decided on a state by state basis.

Also I'd like to see you be willing to push that each state has a duty to come up with a non profit healthcare plan of some sort as an alternative to for profit industries....

61 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:11:01pm

Uh, OK.

Walter, what you've demonstrated is that there were inaccuracies in the program output -- that were found and fixed by the programmer.

This is hardly what you promised, and not what I specifically spelled out either. All programs have errors, and they get fixed as the program is developed further. There's absolutely nothing unusual or remarkable about that.

You were going to show that inaccurate data used in the real world had been produced by the code. Not that it once produced inaccurate data before it was fixed.

You didn't do that.

62 Racer X  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:11:17pm

Move too far to the right or the left and you end up in the gutter. I'm perfectly content to ride the current political climate out here in the middle of the road. Although I have to dodge cars coming at me from both sides.

63 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:11:46pm

re: #60 jamesfirecat

I don't like your stance that Roe V Wade should be repealed to let things instead be decided on a state by state basis.

Also I'd like to see you be willing to push that each state has a duty to come up with a non profit healthcare plan of some sort as an alternative to for profit industries...

enumerated powers?

64 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:12:41pm

re: #60 jamesfirecat

Well the Whigsare still tiny & I will get your input to the folks who are deciding those sorts of things.

65 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:14:09pm

re: #57 cliffster

PIMF, Walter

Quotes are verbatim, including typos, misspellings and language differences… any other mistakes are mine. I may have made a few mistakes... I went over the document a number of times and it was reviewed by 4 Lizards before it was released.

66 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:14:50pm

re: #53 Walter L. Newton


Harry eventually fixed this, so in the future it would produce accurate data, but one wonders how many times data was pushed through this formula in the past and how much invalid data was generated from this faulty function.

Quoted where you turned it around. Two points.

1) You admit it was fixed.

2) "One may wonder". Implying harm is a no-no.


In general, you proved that a programmer had a hell of a time with the legacy systems (hardly a surprise, as anyone whose worked with that kind of thing can tell you), and that he hated having to fix it. Also you proved that 'one may wonder' what harm it did to the data.

67 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:15:10pm

re: #65 Walter L. Newton

Just kidding, buddy. I wouldn't expect you to preview every single post as you paste them in.

68 wrenchwench  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:15:21pm

re: #42 Ojoe

OK this is a good thread to post the new website of the Modern Whig Party.

Check out the centrist Modern Whig Party, and if you like what you see, please consider joining.

I think the first sentence of this part is weak:

Gay Rights

Each state can determine the extended rights of homosexuals based on their own local values. We do, however, support classifying as a federal hate crime attacks on people based on their perceived sexual orientation. In essence, the sexual orientation of the guy down the street has no bearing on anybody else's life.

...and seems to conflict with this, under "Principles ':

SOCIAL ACCEPTANCE - When the government is compelled to legislate morality, every citizen should be considered as equal.
69 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:15:26pm

re: #34 wrenchwench

Dang, that's what I was trying to do!
BRB.

70 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:15:52pm

re: #60 jamesfirecat

I don't like your stance that Roe V Wade should be repealed to let things instead be decided on a state by state basis.

Also I'd like to see you be willing to push that each state has a duty to come up with a non profit healthcare plan of some sort as an alternative to for profit industries...

well of course you wouldn't...Federalism is not something liberals are typically tune into

71 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:16:15pm

re: #50 Guanxi88

See, and from the Right, I'd say that whereas we have known Reds and worse hob-nobbing in the elite circles of Leftist power, we have vanishingly few Phalangists or Minutemen in similar positions on the Right.

To which I in turn would respond, it's not about a few people who are hob-nobbing with those in power it's about the state of your base. Politicians will do what it takes to get elected and the way the right base is trending crazier (as evidenced by recent polls Charles has posted among other things) would argue that the candidates you end up electing are going to by nature be crazier, or at least in thrall to the crazies. I feel the braying of the masses matter far more than a few words whispered in anyone's ear....

(No offense intended trying to be scholarly about this.)

72 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:16:19pm

re: #52 Walter L. Newton

(Part 5)

3) Run dialogs

Ian “Harry” Harris did a very good job of documenting his different “runs” of the programs, clipping and pasting the “run time dialog” into his “harry_read_me.txt.” document. Run time dialog is the text, messages and input prompts that appear on the screen when you run the program. You can see below that the original programmers of the CRU program suite had a “lively” style of informative messages to the end user. Here is a message you get when running an “update” program to merge temperature reporting stations.

Do you know what this program produced? Bad records, an incomplete dataset. Records with station identifiers missing, stations duplicated, no checks for missing data. And if the program had data it didn’t know what to do with, it turned the data into a new station, even if it didn’t really know what that data was in reference to.

Remember, these are the legacy programs that CRU used to generate data. These were live programs, live data. Ian “Harry” Harris was trying to fix and modify these programs, because many of them produced invalid data.

(end part 5)

This one I'll address, because an option to generate a "quick and dirty" merge is just that -- an OPTION. And there could be many reasons to have that option -- it might be faster when a scientist just wants to check a particular bit of data and doesn't care about a permanent database record, for example. There are MANY ways to interpret that, but assuming that it means incorrect data was generated is not reasonable, especially when the warning you mention explicitly tells the program's user what is going to happen.

As far as I can tell, you've completely struck out here, Walter.

73 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:16:43pm

re: #54 Walter L. Newton

So in other words:

No, you couldn't actually back up your claim, that you could show that the code resulted in an error.

74 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:16:45pm

re: #61 Charles

Uh, OK.

Walter, what you've demonstrated is that there were inaccuracies in the program output -- that were found and fixed by the programmer.

This is hardly what you promised, and not what I specifically spelled out either. All programs have errors, and they get fixed as the program is developed further. There's absolutely nothing unusual or remarkable about that.

You were going to show that inaccurate data used in the real world had been produced by the code. Not that it once produced inaccurate data before it was fixed.

You didn't do that.

Harry was fixing programs and data that was being created and used since the 1990, previously written by "Tim."

A simple example of that is when CRU TS 3.0 was sent out, for scientific use, and Harry says...

So, you release a dataset that people have been clamouring for, and the buggers only start using it! And finding problems. For instance:

And then he list a email sent to Tim in regards to mistakes in that live database.

75 Bubblehead II  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:16:58pm

Time to call it a night

May you all have a good night.

Walter, I will read your posts in the morning.

The BH II rules now in effect.

And I think I am walking into a mine field

L8R All

76 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:18:11pm

re: #66 windsagio

Quoted where you turned it around. Two points.

1) You admit it was fixed.

2) "One may wonder". Implying harm is a no-no.

In general, you proved that a programmer had a hell of a time with the legacy systems (hardly a surprise, as anyone whose worked with that kind of thing can tell you), and that he hated having to fix it. Also you proved that 'one may wonder' what harm it did to the data.

What he fixed was fixed during the period from 2006-2009, what he was fixing was legacy programs that produced faulty data from the 1990's.

77 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:19:08pm

re: #76 Walter L. Newton

resistance is futile.

78 Racer X  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:19:41pm

re: #76 Walter L. Newton

Sum it up for me.

79 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:19:48pm

re: #73 Obdicut

So in other words:

No, you couldn't actually back up your claim, that you could show that the code resulted in an error.

(comment from Harry)

So, you release a dataset that people have been clamouring for, and the buggers only start using it! And finding problems. For instance:

Sounds like live data, sent to scientists to me.

80 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:20:00pm

re: #71 jamesfirecat

To which I in turn would respond, it's not about a few people who are hob-nobbing with those in power it's about the state of your base. Politicians will do what it takes to get elected and the way the right base is trending crazier (as evidenced by recent polls Charles has posted among other things) would argue that the candidates you end up electing are going to by nature be crazier, or at least in thrall to the crazies. I feel the braying of the masses matter far more than a few words whispered in anyone's ear...

(No offense intended trying to be scholarly about this.)

To which I'd reply:

Yes, the base are the telling thing; the base & the leadership on the Left seem to have no real problem with courting and/or seeking out the support of, some tremendously questionable folk on the Left. These associations are important to the extent that they suggest the leadership is in touch with the base, and is aware that these open associations are not only known and acceptable to a large portion of the base, but are, indeed, appealing to certain influential elements within the base itself.

Not to beat a dead horse, but the fact that a centrist like BHO had to go to and be seen in, the church of Jeremiah Wright in order to firm up his bona fides tells one a great deal about the state of Democratic politics in Chicago.

81 JRCMYP  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:20:55pm

re: #17 The Sanity Inspector

Well. That was a buzz kill.

82 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:21:10pm

re: #78 Racer X

Sum it up for me.

Read Ian Harris' notes and my essay. His notes are 314 pages long, my essay 9 pages, my essay does sum it up.

Download this essay in PDF format

83 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:21:20pm

re: #64 Ojoe

Well the Whigsare still tiny & I will get your input to the folks who are deciding those sorts of things.

Yeah, I mean why don't you just say that your people will support the law of the land on abortion?

You can't make Roe V Wade go away without having a president in the White House to appoint new Judges and it seems foolish to be promising such big things right out of the gate.

Not to mention there are those who would say your current position on the issue for better or worse is just kicking the can down the street to the State level.

Also if its illegal in one state but legal in another, will there be penalties for crossing over into the state where it is legal to get it?

(Not trying to be sarcastic serious questions)

84 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:21:33pm

re: #61 Charles

Uh, OK.

Walter, what you've demonstrated is that there were inaccuracies in the program output -- that were found and fixed by the programmer.

This is hardly what you promised, and not what I specifically spelled out either. All programs have errors, and they get fixed as the program is developed further. There's absolutely nothing unusual or remarkable about that.

You were going to show that inaccurate data used in the real world had been produced by the code. Not that it once produced inaccurate data before it was fixed.

You didn't do that.

Anytime our Company has issues we upgrade our Software....Jeez when I think of all the upgrades over the years...Global weather models will advance us...
I find some that attribute evil intent sadley mistaken..Can you imagine Phil at Bad Astronomy purposely using bad code? Never!
This is exactly why I believe America needs to get investing in Science...
They need the best tools available

85 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:21:47pm

re: #79 Walter L. Newton

Your claim was that you could show faulty code that produced an error. Instead, you are now simply quoting the out-of context hacked emails.

86 avanti  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:21:56pm

re: #61 Charles

Uh, OK.

Walter, what you've demonstrated is that there were inaccuracies in the program output -- that were found and fixed by the programmer.

This is hardly what you promised, and not what I specifically spelled out either. All programs have errors, and they get fixed as the program is developed further. There's absolutely nothing unusual or remarkable about that.

You were going to show that inaccurate data used in the real world had been produced by the code. Not that it once produced inaccurate data before it was fixed.

You didn't do that.

I actually feel bad for the scientists busting their ass to get good data from confusing input and a buggy program. I think we can fairly question the absolute accuracy of that data set after all the corrections they had to make.
The one thing I got from Walter's report was scientists trying their hardest to good science with all the problems confronting them.
I see no signs of "cooking data" to fit a agenda, quite the contrary, they seemed to be trying to get it right.
The main point for me is that even if they did not correct every error despite trying their damnest, it's not the only data set that shows warming.

87 SteveC  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:22:09pm

re: #82 Walter L. Newton

Read Ian Harris' notes and my essay. His notes are 314 pages long, my essay 9 pages, my essay does sum it up.

Download this essay in PDF format

Whoa! This could take a while!

88 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:22:29pm

re: #77 brookly red

resistance is futile.

I am looking for a fight, the narrative by the programmer Ian Harris speaks for itself, and if you want, read all 314 pages of his notes. I only touched on the tip of the iceberg.

89 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:22:37pm

re: #80 Guanxi88

To which I'd reply:

Yes, the base are the telling thing; the base & the leadership on the Left seem to have no real problem with courting and/or seeking out the support of, some tremendously questionable folk on the Left. These associations are important to the extent that they suggest the leadership is in touch with the base, and is aware that these open associations are not only known and acceptable to a large portion of the base, but are, indeed, appealing to certain influential elements within the base itself.

Not to beat a dead horse, but the fact that a centrist like BHO had to go to and be seen in, the church of Jeremiah Wright in order to firm up his bona fides tells one a great deal about the state of Democratic politics in Chicago.

this is going to get ugly, no way around it.

90 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:22:54pm

re: #76 Walter L. Newton

There are still some problems;

mainly its one guy bitching (in, remember, a carefully trimmed list of emails, you only see him complaining about the legacy code). Beyond that, there's no evidence that any of the data returning 'apparently incorrect values' was ever published.

In general you're a ton of assumptions short of 'proof'.

It does raise concerns tho'!

91 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:23:45pm

re: #89 brookly red

this is going to get ugly, no way around it.

No, I think we're conducting this as an exercise, exploration, and demonstration of the phenomenon in question.

Left and Right are radicalized, and claim they are going this way in reaction to the prior radicalization of the other side. There's no way OUT of this, except to go through it, seems to me.

92 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:23:54pm

re: #63 brookly red

enumerated powers?

Spell it out for me a little more clearly if that isn't too much to ask....

In my opinion Abortion is about someone's right to not have anyone else make use of their organs against their will, as own organs are our most "private" of private property.

93 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:24:31pm

re: #88 Walter L. Newton

I am looking for a fight, the narrative by the programmer Ian Harris speaks for itself, and if you want, read all 314 pages of his notes. I only touched on the tip of the iceberg.

I got you hommie... but 00 the house wins. it's like that & that's the way it is.

94 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:24:33pm

re: #68 wrenchwench

OK thanks for the info it's going to HQ & will make a difference.

95 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:24:37pm

re: #85 Obdicut

Your claim was that you could show faulty code that produced an error. Instead, you are now simply quoting the out-of context hacked emails.

None of the information in the above essay came from a single email. It came from...

Download Ian Harris' 314 pages of programmers notes in PDF format

And yes, if you read the essay above, I do give you a code example, an example of a live function that was used in the legacy program suite that would wrong.

96 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:24:57pm

re: #80 Guanxi88

To which I'd reply:

Yes, the base are the telling thing; the base & the leadership on the Left seem to have no real problem with courting and/or seeking out the support of, some tremendously questionable folk on the Left. These associations are important to the extent that they suggest the leadership is in touch with the base, and is aware that these open associations are not only known and acceptable to a large portion of the base, but are, indeed, appealing to certain influential elements within the base itself.

Not to beat a dead horse, but the fact that a centrist like BHO had to go to and be seen in, the church of Jeremiah Wright in order to firm up his bona fides tells one a great deal about the state of Democratic politics in Chicago.

Quite Concur.

97 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:25:29pm

re: #78 Racer X

Sum it up for me.

Now, now, lets let him finish he's only posted like four of seven parts hasn't he?

98 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:25:38pm

re: #89 brookly red

this is going to get ugly, no way around it.

I don't consider J Wright and BOs Chicago background a dead horse at all...his seedy friends and strong arm politics define who he is...people have short memories...BO was made, otherwise there is simply nothing to him...this is why I despise the fools that voted for him

99 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:25:40pm

re: #91 Guanxi88

No, I think we're conducting this as an exercise, exploration, and demonstration of the phenomenon in question.

Left and Right are radicalized, and claim they are going this way in reaction to the prior radicalization of the other side. There's no way OUT of this, except to go through it, seems to me.

And that radicalization just caused a sane Senator to quit the Senate.

100 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:25:45pm

Good, another sign that the middle is starting to wake up and express themselves openly that they are fed up with partisan games. The tea parties weren't a completely insane idea, it is just that they were organized by mostly insane people.

Now we see them splitting themselves as some of them attempt to become serious and shed the crazy label. I wish the sane among them luck in coming back to the middle. (Right, of course)

101 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:26:38pm

re: #90 windsagio

There are still some problems;

mainly its one guy bitching (in, remember, a carefully trimmed list of emails, you only see him complaining about the legacy code). Beyond that, there's no evidence that any of the data returning 'apparently incorrect values' was ever published.

In general you're a ton of assumptions short of 'proof'.

It does raise concerns tho'!

This is not EMAILS... this is a 314 page narrative by the CRU programer Ian Harris and the notes he made as he went though years and years of live legacy program code and was finding error after error.

This is his diary of the work he did and the problems he found, problems he found with LIVE LEGACY PROGRAMS AND DATA.

102 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:26:47pm

re: #99 Dark_Falcon

And that radicalization just caused a sane Senator to quit the Senate.

See? This is what I'm getting at.

Now, coming from the Right, I am, to a certain extent, blinded to certain aspects of the phenomenon, but I can still see it happening. The middle ground is getting deserted.

103 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:27:00pm

re: #97 jamesfirecat

Now, now, lets let him finish he's only posted like four of seven parts hasn't he?

I've posted the whole thing.

104 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:27:29pm

Another point -- bugs get fixed because they get noticed.

Bugs that don't get noticed can live on in code for a long time, before the particular combination of events that triggers a problem result, and gets them noticed.

The fact that bugs existed in the code is absolutely NOT proof that any inaccurate data was produced or used in any situation. These bugs may not have caused any ill effects -- because if they had, the chances are that the scientists who used the program would have noticed, and then the bug would have been fixed.

105 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:27:49pm

re: #102 Guanxi88

See? This is what I'm getting at.

Now, coming from the Right, I am, to a certain extent, blinded to certain aspects of the phenomenon, but I can still see it happening. The middle ground is getting deserted.

I see enough to make me...dislike...the left and the right.

106 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:27:56pm

re: #92 jamesfirecat

Spell it out for me a little more clearly if that isn't too much to ask...

In my opinion Abortion is about someone's right to not have anyone else make use of their organs against their will, as own organs are our most "private" of private property.

OK, not a decision that the federal government is empowered to make... hence states rights. Your opinion may be right or wrong but it ain't spelled out in the Constitution so states right is the default mode.

107 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:27:56pm

re: #95 Walter L. Newton

You never proved that error made it into published data.


I keep saying it, but you won't address it.

There's no evidence any of these problems in the code led to any incorrect published findings. And my impression is that is what you were going to prove.

Like someone else said, the stuff you quote shows someone doing a hard awful job, and complaining about it. It sounds like they had their work cut out for them trying to clean it out. That being said, theres still no proof of anything broken getting out.

108 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:27:59pm

re: #95 Walter L. Newton

Your claim was that you could show faulty code that produced an actual inaccuracy in the data.

You did not do so.

Are you willing to admit that?

109 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:28:05pm

re: #80 Guanxi88

To which I'd reply:

Yes, the base are the telling thing; the base & the leadership on the Left seem to have no real problem with courting and/or seeking out the support of, some tremendously questionable folk on the Left. These associations are important to the extent that they suggest the leadership is in touch with the base, and is aware that these open associations are not only known and acceptable to a large portion of the base, but are, indeed, appealing to certain influential elements within the base itself.

Not to beat a dead horse, but the fact that a centrist like BHO had to go to and be seen in, the church of Jeremiah Wright in order to firm up his bona fides tells one a great deal about the state of Democratic politics in Chicago.

In the particular example you listed of BHO and Jeremiah Wright, let me give you a more harmless interpretation which may or may not be true but you should consider.

Do you think its possible it could have been less about seeing BHO in that church and more about seeing BHO in A CHURCH? If we only just barely managed to elect a catholic half a century ago, something tells me an athetistic/agnostic would have had no chance running for President....

110 TampaKnight  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:29:00pm

I like moderation as it forces one to take stock and think before reacting. But I also think that perpetual middle ground leads to complacency and eventually it becomes a bad thing.

111 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:29:01pm

re: #105 Varek Raith

I see enough to make me...dislike...the left and the right.

don't be fooled...govt is not your friend, regardless of the direction the tax you from

112 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:29:51pm

re: #109 jamesfirecat

In the particular example you listed of BHO and Jeremiah Wright, let me give you a more harmless interpretation which may or may not be true but you should consider.

Do you think its possible it could have been less about seeing BHO in that church and more about seeing BHO in A CHURCH? If we only just barely managed to elect a catholic half a century ago, something tells me an athetistic/agnostic would have had no chance running for President...

now THAT I'd agree with you on. No way we're ready for an open atheist/agnostic, undecided.

Hell, it amazes me we even had ONE Catholic pres, truth be told.

113 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:29:51pm

re: #111 albusteve

don't be fooled...govt is not your friend, regardless of the direction the tax you from

I never trusted the Gov, nor just about anyone...
;)

114 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:30:07pm

re: #101 Walter L. Newton

This is not EMAILS... this is a 314 page narrative by the CRU programer Ian Harris and the notes he made as he went though years and years of live legacy program code and was finding error after error.

This is his diary of the work he did and the problems he found, problems he found with LIVE LEGACY PROGRAMS AND DATA.

Its a hint that your position is weak that you've decided to focus on the mistake I made rather than the content of my objections.

Also, charles said it freaking well in 104. All this analysis shows is that he was doing his freaking job and catching errors.

To say it the fourth (fifth?) time, You have nowhere shown that any of this led to any incorrect data or conclusions being published!

115 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:30:53pm

re: #112 Guanxi88

it was amazing at the time too, although some fraud was involved >>

116 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:31:42pm

re: #109 jamesfirecat

In the particular example you listed of BHO and Jeremiah Wright, let me give you a more harmless interpretation which may or may not be true but you should consider.

Do you think its possible it could have been less about seeing BHO in that church and more about seeing BHO in A CHURCH? If we only just barely managed to elect a catholic half a century ago, something tells me an athetistic/agnostic would have had no chance running for President...

almost all your questions are irrelevant to your point of view....you continuously ask others to frame a subject, which seems to imply you have nothing of your own

117 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:31:48pm

re: #115 windsagio

it was amazing at the time too, although some fraud was involved >>

Well, that kinda stuff's gonna happen.

Nixie was a good(ish) sport about it, though.

118 avanti  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:31:53pm

re: #93 brookly red

I got you hommie... but 00 the house wins. it's like that & that's the way it is.

I don't see winners and losers. I see Walter did a lot of work to generate a discussion of the issues. No matter which side of the discussion you are on, it's not about winning and losing, it's about looking at both sides.
I don't think we can prove that the data was perfect or flawed, but we can see the struggle involved in gathering it. I'd be more interested in seeing how the data set in question differs from the others to show accuracy.

119 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:32:18pm

re: #104 Charles

Another point -- bugs get fixed because they get noticed.

Bugs that don't get noticed can live on in code for a long time, before the particular combination of events that triggers a problem result, and gets them noticed.

The fact that bugs existed in the code is absolutely NOT proof that any inaccurate data was produced or used in any situation. These bugs may not have caused any ill effects -- because if they had, the chances are that the scientists who used the program would have noticed, and then the bug would have been fixed.

We are talking about live data, and bugs that created live data, inaccurate live data.


“I am very sorry to report that the rest of the databases seem to be in nearly as poor a state as Australia was. There are hundreds if not thousands of pairs of dummy stations, one with no WMO and one with, usually overlapping and with the same station name and very similar coordinates. I know it could be old and new stations, but why such large overlaps if that's the case? Aarrggghhh!”

“So.. should I really go to town (again) and allow the Master database to be 'fixed' by this program? Quite honestly I don't have time - but it just shows the state our data holdings have drifted into. Who added those two series together? When? Why? Untraceable, except anecdotally. It's the same story for many other Russian stations, unfortunately - meaning that (probably) there was a full Russian update that did no data integrity checking at all. I just hope it's restricted to Russia!!”

Ian Harris was put in charge of live legacy programs and data, and his 314 page narrative is a chronological diary of what he encountered with these programs and data.

This data did get into the scientific community, one example as noted above in the section about the CRU TS 3.0 database.

120 sandbox  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:32:28pm

Re Sarah Palin, IMO the left and MSM are overrating her prospects in Presidential politics. If she does decide to run for Pres., I can't see her winning any significant primaries. Her lack of depth on the issues will lead many, who like her personally, to vote for someone else in the primaries.

121 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:32:35pm

re: #104 Charles

Another point -- bugs get fixed because they get noticed.

Bugs that don't get noticed can live on in code for a long time, before the particular combination of events that triggers a problem result, and gets them noticed.

The fact that bugs existed in the code is absolutely NOT proof that any inaccurate data was produced or used in any situation. These bugs may not have caused any ill effects -- because if they had, the chances are that the scientists who used the program would have noticed, and then the bug would have been fixed.

I work around programmers all day...
That is a righteous statement Charles..
That is exactly right...No BS...
That is exactly how programming is approached....

122 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:32:36pm

re: #117 Guanxi88

Its always been my opinion that it broke his soul, and was one of the leading causes of his excesses in 68-74. Just a feeling tho ;)

123 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:33:09pm

re: #56 Walter L. Newton

Could you put the totality of your posts on a different web page for future reference?

124 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:33:17pm

re: #101 Walter L. Newton

This is not EMAILS... this is a 314 page narrative by the CRU programer Ian Harris and the notes he made as he went though years and years of live legacy program code and was finding error after error.

This is his diary of the work he did and the problems he found, problems he found with LIVE LEGACY PROGRAMS AND DATA.

So you are saying the bugs resulted in problematic data, and not a situation where the data was being incorrectly massaged?

125 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:33:42pm

re: #123 Conservative Moonbat

Could you put the totality of your posts on a different web page for future reference?

Download this essay in PDF format

Download Ian Harris' 314 pages of programmers notes in PDF format

126 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:33:51pm

re: #121 HoosierHoops

lol I have no idea how to parse that.

Could be one of 2 ways ;)

127 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:34:02pm

re: #123 Conservative Moonbat

Could you put the totality of your posts on a different web page for future reference?

If I am not mistaken, he has it in a PDF that you can download...

128 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:34:20pm

re: #98 albusteve

I don't consider J Wright and BOs Chicago background a dead horse at all...his seedy friends and strong arm politics define who he is...people have short memories...BO was made, otherwise there is simply nothing to him...this is why I despise the fools that voted for him

I hear you, but it is what it is.

129 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:34:24pm

re: #127 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yeah, what he said.

130 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:34:43pm

re: #122 windsagio

Its always been my opinion that it broke his soul, and was one of the leading causes of his excesses in 68-74. Just a feeling tho ;)

well he finally resolved the nightmare VN mess you donks perped on the country...if you were gracious you'd give him his props for that

131 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:34:48pm

re: #122 windsagio

Its always been my opinion that it broke his soul, and was one of the leading causes of his excesses in 68-74. Just a feeling tho ;)

He's probably one of the most complicated and interesting political figures of the late 20th century.

Militant Quaker, hard-core anti-Communist who opened relations with Red China, peacemaking warrior (after a fashion), paranoid, patriotic, environmentalist, odd, and, the thing I liked best about the man - so obviously uncomfortable in his own skin.

132 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:35:03pm

re: #120 sandbox

Re Sarah Palin, IMO the left and MSM are overrating her prospects in Presidential politics. If she does decide to run for Pres., I can't see her winning any significant primaries. Her lack of depth on the issues will lead many, who like her personally, to vote for someone else in the primaries.

Concur. To win, she'd have to at least not fail badly in the debates, and I think she'd fail badly. She is not skilled at dealing with hardball questions, and that would cost her.

133 avanti  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:35:18pm

re: #123 Conservative Moonbat

Could you put the totality of your posts on a different web page for future reference?

Why would you ask that ?

134 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:36:04pm

re: #124 cliffster

So you are saying the bugs resulted in problematic data, and not a situation where the data was being incorrectly massaged?

For the code jockey's out there... an example of massaging the data to force an outcome.

;
; Now prepare for plotting
;
loadct,39
multi_plot,nrow=3,layout='caption'
if !d.name eq 'X' then begin
window,ysize=800
!p.font=-1
endif else begin
!p.font=0
device,/helvetica,/bold,font_size=18
endelse
def_1color,20,color='red'
def_1color,21,color='blue'
def_1color,22,color='black'
;
restore,'compbest_fixed1950.idlsave'
;
plot,timey,comptemp(*,3),/nodata,$
/xstyle,xrange=[1881,1994],xtitle='Year',$
/ystyle,yrange=[-3,3],ytitle='Normalised anomalies',$
; title='Northern Hemisphere temperatures, MXD and corrected MXD'
title='Northern Hemisphere temperatures and MXD reconstruction'
;
yyy=reform(comptemp(*,2))
;mknormal,yyy,timey,refperiod=[1881,1940]
filter_cru,5.,/nan,tsin=yyy,tslow=tslow
oplot,timey,tslow,thick=5,color=22
yyy=reform(compmxd(*,2,1))
;mknormal,yyy,timey,refperiod=[1881,1940]
;
; Apply a VERY ARTIFICAL correction for decline!!
;
yrloc=[1400,findgen(19)*5.+1904]
valadj=[0.,0.,0.,0.,0.,-0.1,-0.25,-0.3,0.,-0.1,0.3,0.8,1.2,1.7,2.5,2.6,2.6,$
2.6,2.6,2.6]*0.75 ; fudge factor

if n_elements(yrloc) ne n_elements(valadj) then message,'Oooops!'
;
yearlyadj=interpol(valadj,yrloc,timey)
;
;filter_cru,5.,/nan,tsin=yyy+yearlyadj,tslow=tslow
;oplot,timey,tslow,thick=5,color=20
;
filter_cru,5.,/nan,tsin=yyy,tslow=tslow
oplot,timey,tslow,thick=5,color=21
;
oplot,!x.crange,[0.,0.],linestyle=1
;
plot,[0,1],/nodata,xstyle=4,ystyle=4
;legend,['Northern Hemisphere April-September instrumental temperature',$
; 'Northern Hemisphere MXD',$
; 'Northern Hemisphere MXD corrected for decline'],$
; colors=[22,21,20],thick=[3,3,3],margin=0.6,spacing=1.5
legend,['Northern Hemisphere April-September instrumental temperature',$
'Northern Hemisphere MXD'],$
colors=[22,21],thick=[3,3],margin=0.6,spacing=1.5
;
end

135 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:36:13pm

re: #119 Walter L. Newton

I'm reading the damn thing again, trying to find any real proof that anything actually made it out in any published report.

The closest I can get is a bit saying that at one point in the 3.0 data there was info he thought was wrong. No evidence that it made it to the final tho', you'd think him reporting it in his log might get the error caught.

136 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:36:18pm
Jon Avlon, senior political columnist for The Daily Beast and former speechwriter for Rudy Giuliani, has a new book out called Wingnuts: How the Lunatic Fringe is Hijacking America

I wonder what he thinks of Rudy these days.

137 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:36:45pm

re: #130 albusteve

- for douchey partisanship.

138 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:36:52pm

re: #74 Walter L. Newton

Isn't the constant finding and fixing of errors kinda how science works?

139 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:37:25pm

re: #134 Walter L. Newton

that sure could use a ton of context, friend.

140 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:37:54pm

Off to smoke my pipe. Back in a few.

(Prince Albert in a Marxman spigot)

141 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:37:54pm

re: #106 brookly red

OK, not a decision that the federal government is empowered to make... hence states rights. Your opinion may be right or wrong but it ain't spelled out in the Constitution so states right is the default mode.

Ahem....

"The principal thrust of appellant's attack on the Texas statutes is that they improperly invade a right, said to be possessed by the pregnant woman, to choose to terminate her pregnancy. Appellant would discover this right in the concept of personal "liberty" embodied in the Fourteenth Amendment's Due Process Clause; or in personal, marital, familial, and sexual privacy said to be protected by the Bill of Rights or its penumbras ... or among those rights reserved to the people by the Ninth Amendment ..."

So tell me again how you can't make a Constitutional case for Abortion? Because I believe our Supreme Court already did!

142 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:38:40pm

re: #134 Walter L. Newton

Oh my god. After all this build up, after all your hyping, all you have is the 'artificial correction' thingy, that'd been debunked for months now?

[Link: www.jgc.org...]

Again:

Your claim was that you could show an error in the code that led to an inaccuracy in the data. You have failed to do so.

143 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:38:51pm

re: #131 Guanxi88

Oh I agree, dude was totally fascinating.

In the end, a brilliant, fatally flawed man and president.

144 avanti  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:39:14pm

re: #134 Walter L. Newton

I'm not a programmer, but is not a note for a artificial correction put in the code to show a correction for a bug error found ?

145 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:39:37pm

re: #130 albusteve

well he finally resolved the nightmare VN mess you donks perped on the country...if you were gracious you'd give him his props for that

Agreed.

re: #137 windsagio

- for douchey partisanship.

It is not douchey to point out that LBJ screwed up in truly spectacular fashion in Vietnam. It is simply the correct reading of the facts. Nixon did the bad he could with the hand he was dealt, and the South might have stayed independent had Nixon not ordered the Watergate coverup.

146 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:39:37pm

re: #137 windsagio

- for douchey partisanship.

politics are partisan...what are you getting at?

147 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:40:00pm

re: #138 Conservative Moonbat

Isn't the constant finding and fixing of errors kinda how science works?

Yes... and Ian Harris did a good job of finding and fixing errors he found in the programs and the data. He found these errors during the period of 2006-2009.

Unfortunately, the programs that were producing these errors were live legacy programs, use by CRU to do Time Sliced temperature graphs and grids and reports since the 1990's.

He found the problems AFTER THE FACT... starting in 2006.

148 claire  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:40:26pm

re: #101 Walter L. Newton

This is not EMAILS... this is a 314 page narrative by the CRU programer Ian Harris and the notes he made as he went though years and years of live legacy program code and was finding error after error.

This is his diary of the work he did and the problems he found, problems he found with LIVE LEGACY PROGRAMS AND DATA.


To what degree did it affect the end results, though? Which data? Temp? Precip? Other? What year/years? What region? How much of the data? 3 stations vs. 4000 on the whole globe? The whole globe? A little bit of it? Some of it? Alot of it? None of it? I can't tell, can you? How different did the graph look with it corrected vs. incorrect. And exactly which graph of what data are we talking about? Published, not published, internal for modeling experiments, what's it for? Without quantification of some sort, there are no conclusions to be made.

149 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:40:27pm

re: #91 Guanxi88

No, I think we're conducting this as an exercise, exploration, and demonstration of the phenomenon in question.

Left and Right are radicalized, and claim they are going this way in reaction to the prior radicalization of the other side. There's no way OUT of this, except to go through it, seems to me.

well if the powers that be would recognize this fact it could be avoided... see you on the other side.

150 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:40:37pm

re: #56 Walter L. Newton

Thank you for putting this together, and thank you Charles for hosting it.

151 sandbox  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:41:12pm

re: #132 Dark_Falcon

right. I consider her selection as VP running mate by McCain as an error. In many people's minds she failed the elemental test of VP--that she could take over if the Pres. is sick or passes away. By contrast, Biden met that elemental test--whatever his other failings. I say this as Republican who voted for McCain.

152 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:41:21pm

re: #145 Dark_Falcon

It is not douchey to point out that LBJ screwed up in truly spectacular fashion in Vietnam. It is simply the correct reading of the facts. Nixon did the bad he could with the hand he was dealt, and the South might have stayed independent had Nixon not ordered the Watergate coverup.

disregard that person...too weird :P :P :P :P

153 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:41:28pm

re: #134 Walter L. Newton

Not this one again.

The comment that says, "; Apply a VERY ARTIFICAL correction for decline!!" has already been thoroughly debunked by Tim Lambert:

Quote mining code.

154 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:42:03pm

re: #17 The Sanity Inspector

On the left and on the right, we hear people claiming to be "beyond" the old categories of left and right, liberal and conservative. These are the beyondists. They are usually liberals running away from the sour smell of liberalism far beyond its sell-by date. And beyondists are sometimes conservatives wanting to distance themselves from the stereotypes of conservatism.

So liberals are running from the failed concept of liberalism, while conservatives are only running from the stereotypes of conservativism. And it's "usually" liberals but only "sometimes" conservatives

/uh huh. which is why the Tea Party is so popular.

idiot.

155 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:42:03pm

re: #126 windsagio

lol I have no idea how to parse that.

Could be one of 2 ways ;)

LOL
Just geek talk.. I work around just thousands of world class geeks from silly cone valley...I know a little about software...Last I checked the top 10 company in the world but Charles can confirm that off-line..
I know talent.. Charles haz mad skilz.. I wish he would work for us...

156 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:42:32pm

re: #145 Dark_Falcon

re: #146 albusteve

Its more that I have been giving Nixon credit, and steve had to indulge in the same ol' bullcrap yelling match thing.

It was a pointless comment meant to attack the 'donks', than relevant at all.


DF, you are correct that the Dems, especially LBJ did a shockingly poor job in Vietnam. The other part, I dunno. I think its pretty clear that the South was pretty much Fucked well before Watergate.

157 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:43:14pm

re: #145 Dark_Falcon

It is not douchey to point out that LBJ screwed up in truly spectacular fashion in Vietnam. It is simply the correct reading of the facts. Nixon did the bad he could with the hand he was dealt, and the South might have stayed independent had Nixon not ordered the Watergate coverup.

How does that theory work?

The one that the South might have stayed independent had Nixon not ordered the coverup?

Did the invasion of the South not happen till the North it saw the US was too bogged down in internal problems to act?

(not being sarcastic, interested)

158 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:43:18pm

re: #148 claire

To what degree did it affect the end results, though? Which data? Temp? Precip? Other? What year/years? What region? How much of the data? 3 stations vs. 4000 on the whole globe? The whole globe? A little bit of it? Some of it? Alot of it? None of it? I can't tell, can you? How different did the graph look with it corrected vs. incorrect. And exactly which graph of what data are we talking about? Published, not published, internal for modeling experiments, what's it for? Without quantification of some sort, there are no conclusions to be made.

Well, since these were the programs used since the 1990's by the CRU, and it wasn't until 2006, when Harris took over the job of maintaining these programs, and from 2006-2009 Harris was finding errors and problems, than I expect that any data produced before 2006 could be suspect.

159 avanti  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:43:26pm

re: #142 Obdicut

Oh my god. After all this build up, after all your hyping, all you have is the 'artificial correction' thingy, that'd been debunked for months now?

[Link: www.jgc.org...]

Again:

Your claim was that you could show an error in the code that led to an inaccuracy in the data. You have failed to do so.

Do me a large favor and stay polite to Walter. He's put in a lot of work to support his opinion, disagree if you like, but at least he's giving us lots of points worthy of discussions, so let's debate them nicely.

160 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:43:33pm

re: #154 Vambo

Throw a snarky insult, get a downding.

161 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:43:35pm

re: #101 Walter L. Newton

This is not EMAILS... this is a 314 page narrative by the CRU programer Ian Harris and the notes he made as he went though years and years of live legacy program code and was finding error after error.

This is his diary of the work he did and the problems he found, problems he found with LIVE LEGACY PROGRAMS AND DATA.

Haven't scientists worked with inaccurate data before and refined their calculations as more accurate data became available? Isn't that pretty much how science works?

We have no idea how much skew the inaccurate data may have caused and if it was even enough to be notable.

The fact that there were at one time errors in the data is nothing shocking, surprising, or scandalous.

162 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:43:41pm

re: #147 Walter L. Newton

Yes... and Ian Harris did a good job of finding and fixing errors he found in the programs and the data. He found these errors during the period of 2006-2009.

Unfortunately, the programs that were producing these errors were live legacy programs, use by CRU to do Time Sliced temperature graphs and grids and reports since the 1990's.

He found the problems AFTER THE FACT... starting in 2006.

You're trying to use the programmer's own record of fixing bugs to show that ... there were bugs. And they were fixed.

Hold the presses!

163 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:44:02pm

re: #154 Vambo

No need for the hostility.

164 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:45:01pm

re: #162 Charles

You're trying to use the programmer's own record of fixing bugs to show that ... there were bugs. And they were fixed.

Hold the presses!

After the programs had been generating data since the late 1990's. I've said that a number of times now, and yet you seem to dismiss it out of hand?

165 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:45:28pm

re: #156 windsagio

re: #146 albusteve

Its more that I have been giving Nixon credit, and steve had to indulge in the same ol' bullcrap yelling match thing.

It was a pointless comment meant to attack the 'donks', than relevant at all.

DF, you are correct that the Dems, especially LBJ did a shockingly poor job in Vietnam. The other part, I dunno. I think its pretty clear that the South was pretty much Fucked well before Watergate.

max tripe....nobody is yelling...why do you make stuff up?....my comment was not pointless with regard to criticism of Nixon

166 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:45:30pm

If tre: #163 Varek Raith

No need for the hostility.

I disagree completely.

Some people need the hostility to masturbate effectively.

167 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:45:43pm

sorry, sorry. I forgot liberal = bad, conservative = good.

And I'm only calling out the "idiot" who made the statement, which was apparently not Sanity Inspector.

168 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:46:02pm

re: #141 jamesfirecat

Ahem...

"The principal thrust of appellant's attack on the Texas statutes is that they improperly invade a right, said to be possessed by the pregnant woman, to choose to terminate her pregnancy. Appellant would discover this right in the concept of personal "liberty" embodied in the Fourteenth Amendment's Due Process Clause; or in personal, marital, familial, and sexual privacy said to be protected by the Bill of Rights or its penumbras ... or among those rights reserved to the people by the Ninth Amendment ..."

So tell me again how you can't make a Constitutional case for Abortion? Because I believe our Supreme Court already did!

Do you even have any idea of what those words mean or are you just throwing out talking points... I don't give a rat's ass if you care to kill your children. I am just saying that the issue is not specifically mentioned in the Constitution and by default is a matter of states rights. That is all.

169 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:46:04pm

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

Well, since these were the programs used since the 1990's by the CRU, and it wasn't until 2006, when Harris took over the job of maintaining these programs, and from 2006-2009 Harris was finding errors and problems, than I expect that any data produced before 2006 could be suspect.

Are they generating data or interpreting it? Because the interpreting code can be fixed and all's well.

170 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:46:15pm

re: #157 jamesfirecat

How does that theory work?

The one that the South might have stayed independent had Nixon not ordered the coverup?

Did the invasion of the South not happen till the North it saw the US was too bogged down in internal problems to act?

(not being sarcastic, interested)

the theory is that had Nixon's bad actions in Watergate not first hobbled then destroyed his administration, the US could have provided South Vietnam wit the aid and air support it needed to keep the North from invading. Remember, the fall of the South in 1975 came not from a popular uprising but from a crushing blitzkrieg from the North.

171 Unakite  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:46:31pm

re: #90 windsagio

There are still some problems;

mainly its one guy bitching (in, remember, a carefully trimmed list of emails, you only see him complaining about the legacy code). Beyond that, there's no evidence that any of the data returning 'apparently incorrect values' was ever published.

In general you're a ton of assumptions short of 'proof'.

It does raise concerns tho'!

Kind of splitting teeny hairs, but the point is, it does raise concerns. I think that is what has been ignored or trivialized.

172 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:46:39pm

re: #159 avanti


I have to disagree with your main point.

He's being deeply dishonest. So deeply he might not even be able to admit it himself.

He can't directly go after AGW, so he's convinced himself that he's found a smoking gun... when he simply hasn't.

Beyond that, he just hasn't lived up to the claim he made for his essay, but he can't even admit that.


Whats the point if he's totally incapable of acting in good faith?

173 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:46:41pm

re: #156 windsagio

re: #146 albusteve

Its more that I have been giving Nixon credit, and steve had to indulge in the same ol' bullcrap yelling match thing.

It was a pointless comment meant to attack the 'donks', than relevant at all.

DF, you are correct that the Dems, especially LBJ did a shockingly poor job in Vietnam. The other part, I dunno. I think its pretty clear that the South was pretty much Fucked well before Watergate.

how so? will you elaborate?...the NVA was shattered by 72

174 avanti  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:47:10pm

re: #162 Charles

You're trying to use the programmer's own record of fixing bugs to show that ... there were bugs. And they were fixed.

Hold the presses!

I get Walter's point that those errors were discovered and fixed later. How does that effect the earlier data, and how does it differ, if it does from the other data sets ?

175 akarra  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:47:21pm

Read the preview for the "Wingnuts" book - the prose is lively, and it feels like he moves quickly through that Oath Keepers conference and the attendant insanity but he makes sure it hits hard: that note about the beginning of the American Revolution and Oklahoma City can't just be shrugged off.

Thank you for sharing - I'll definitely read more later.

176 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:47:22pm

re: #167 Vambo

Errr, no. I'm neither a liberal nor a conservative. The 'idiot' remark was why I downdinged ya. If that insult wasn't meant for him, then you should've been clearer.
:)

177 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:47:34pm

re: #164 Walter L. Newton

After the programs had been generating data since the late 1990's. I've said that a number of times now, and yet you seem to dismiss it out of hand?

Walter, believe me -- if you had shown a serious problem with the code that unarguably produced bad data, and if you had showed that this data was used in the real world and misled people as a result, I was totally ready to feature your piece on the front page.

But you didn't do that, sorry.

178 keloyd  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:47:38pm

re: #112 Guanxi88

I still don't think a certain Mormon can ever get past the Republican primaries, and I like Romney.

The odd thing is we've moved backwards wrt religious tolerance. In ages past, we had 4 Unitarians (the two Johns Adams, Filmore, and Taft). They're very much at the fringe of Christendom. Lincoln was solidly agnostic at a time when Catholics were not allowed in the abolitionist movement because they were 'slaves of the pope.'

A Catholic candidate today would have the added burden of the Church telling parishioners not to vote for him since he won't be totally pro-life, and thus a proper Catholic - and when I say pro-life I mean even 12 year olds, fetal stem cells, and rape victims. This does not seem to be nearly the issue for Catholic pols in Europe for some reason.

179 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:48:01pm

re: #161 Conservative Moonbat

Haven't scientists worked with inaccurate data before and refined their calculations as more accurate data became available? Isn't that pretty much how science works?

We have no idea how much skew the inaccurate data may have caused and if it was even enough to be notable.

The fact that there were at one time errors in the data is nothing shocking, surprising, or scandalous.

There is good climate science going on, there are good datasets to work with... but it's my opinion, and apparently Ian Harris' opinion that CRU was not producing a lot of good data.

180 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:48:04pm

I might fall a bit behind for a bit, my desk just broke.

181 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:48:11pm

re: #167 Vambo

sorry, sorry. I forgot liberal = bad, conservative = good.

And I'm only calling out the "idiot" who made the statement, which was apparently not Sanity Inspector.

Were it not for the bolded part of your post, I'd have had no problem with it. As it is, you couldn't even apologize without hurling a insult. Shnook.

182 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:48:30pm

re: #168 brookly red

Do you even have any idea of what those words mean or are you just throwing out talking points... I don't give a rat's ass if you care to kill your children. I am just saying that the issue is not specifically mentioned in the Constitution and by default is a matter of states rights. That is all.

Okay then if you want to be a strict constructionist, you can be a strict constructionist.

183 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:48:38pm

Walter? Thanks for the time you put into this... and I was able to read it. Didn't understand it all, but grabbed the gist.

Charles? What a great site this is. Thanks for the work you do.

Everybody? Be excellent to each other.

184 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:48:54pm

re: #180 windsagio

I might fall a bit behind for a bit, my desk just broke.

how convenient

185 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:49:23pm

re: #169 cliffster

Are they generating data or interpreting it? Because the interpreting code can be fixed and all's well.

They were processing and putting out bad data...


“I am very sorry to report that the rest of the databases seem to be in nearly as poor a state as Australia was. There are hundreds if not thousands of pairs of dummy stations, one with no WMO and one with, usually overlapping and with the same station name and very similar coordinates. I know it could be old and new stations, but why such large overlaps if that's the case? Aarrggghhh!”

186 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:49:23pm

re: #172 windsagio

Don't you dare call Walter dishonest. He may be wrong, but he is always an honest man.

187 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:49:36pm

re: #167 Vambo

sorry, sorry. I forgot liberal = bad, conservative = good.

downding for this too? Is this not the philosophy around here? You can admit it.

188 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:49:43pm

re: #170 Dark_Falcon

the theory is that had Nixon's bad actions in Watergate not first hobbled then destroyed his administration, the US could have provided South Vietnam wit the aid and air support it needed to keep the North from invading. Remember, the fall of the South in 1975 came not from a popular uprising but from a crushing blitzkrieg from the North.

I think the issue has to also be "would he have..." I mean Nixon probably won his second election by such a Landslide because he had gotten us out of the war, (rather than because he tapped the other sides phones ;) ) would he have been willing to send America back into that meat grinder, even as a Lame Duck President?

189 Racer X  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:49:56pm

re: #164 Walter L. Newton

Walter - thank you for your time and effort in this endeavor!

Clearly this took you many hours to comb through the material and provide a summary. From what I gather (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that the data that was used prior to 2006 is potentially inaccurate - and to compare that with more recent data will give inaccurate results.

Yes?

190 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:50:02pm

re: #184 albusteve

don't worry fixed! A screw fell out, but I got it back in :P

191 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:50:21pm

re: #172 windsagio

I have to disagree with your main point.

He's being deeply dishonest. So deeply he might not even be able to admit it himself.

He can't directly go after AGW, so he's convinced himself that he's found a smoking gun... when he simply hasn't.

Beyond that, he just hasn't lived up to the claim he made for his essay, but he can't even admit that.

Whats the point if he's totally incapable of acting in good faith?

As long as Charles leave the post up, then we can let the Lizards decide for themselves.

192 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:50:35pm

re: #186 Dark_Falcon

Don't you dare call Walter dishonest. He may be wrong, but he is always an honest man.

there you have it bro....some people blurt out the most crude shit

193 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:50:40pm

re: #181 Dark_Falcon

Were it not for the bolded part of your post, I'd have had no problem with it. As it is, you couldn't even apologize without hurling a insult. Shnook.

That's an insult? I thought you guys would agree with me.

194 avanti  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:50:48pm

re: #172 windsagio

I have to disagree with your main point.

He's being deeply dishonest. So deeply he might not even be able to admit it himself.

He can't directly go after AGW, so he's convinced himself that he's found a smoking gun... when he simply hasn't.

Beyond that, he just hasn't lived up to the claim he made for his essay, but he can't even admit that.

Whats the point if he's totally incapable of acting in good faith?

That's a hell of a leap. I can't know what is in Walter's head, but he has said many times that he is not a critic of AGW, just questions the one data set.

195 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:51:02pm

re: #187 Vambo

You know, just go away. It's is most certainly not my, nor many others, philosophy.

196 wiffersnapper  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:51:16pm

Hot Air hate comments about said book in 5....4....3....2....

197 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:51:22pm

re: #134 Walter L. Newton

For the code jockey's out there... an example of massaging the data to force an outcome.

;
; Now prepare for plotting
;
loadct,39
multi_plot,nrow=3,layout='caption'
if !d.name eq 'X' then begin
window,ysize=800
!p.font=-1
endif else begin
!p.font=0
device,/helvetica,/bold,font_size=18
endelse
def_1color,20,color='red'
def_1color,21,color='blue'
def_1color,22,color='black'
;
restore,'compbest_fixed1950.idlsave'
;
plot,timey,comptemp(*,3),/nodata,$
/xstyle,xrange=[1881,1994],xtitle='Year',$
/ystyle,yrange=[-3,3],ytitle='Normalised anomalies',$
; title='Northern Hemisphere temperatures, MXD and corrected MXD'
title='Northern Hemisphere temperatures and MXD reconstruction'
;
yyy=reform(comptemp(*,2))
;mknormal,yyy,timey,refperiod=[1881,1940]
filter_cru,5.,/nan,tsin=yyy,tslow=tslow
oplot,timey,tslow,thick=5,color=22
yyy=reform(compmxd(*,2,1))
;mknormal,yyy,timey,refperiod=[1881,1940]
;
; Apply a VERY ARTIFICAL correction for decline!!
;
yrloc=[1400,findgen(19)*5.+1904]
valadj=[0.,0.,0.,0.,0.,-0.1,-0.25,-0.3,0.,-0.1,0.3 ,0.8,1.2,1.7,2.5,2.6,2.6,$
2.6,2.6,2.6]*0.75 ; fudge factor

if n_elements(yrloc) ne n_elements(valadj) then message,'Oooops!'
;
yearlyadj=interpol(valadj,yrloc,timey)
;
;filter_cru,5.,/nan,tsin=yyy+yearlyadj,tslow=t slow
;oplot,timey,tslow,thick=5,color=20
;
filter_cru,5.,/nan,tsin=yyy,tslow=tslow
oplot,timey,tslow,thick=5,color=21
;
oplot,!x.crange,[0.,0.],linestyle=1
;
plot,[0,1],/nodata,xstyle=4,ystyle=4
;legend,['Northern Hemisphere April-September instrumental temperature',$
; 'Northern Hemisphere MXD',$
; 'Northern Hemisphere MXD corrected for decline'],$
; colors=[22,21,20],thick=[3,3,3],margin=0.6,spacing =1.5
legend,['Northern Hemisphere April-September instrumental temperature',$
'Northern Hemisphere MXD'],$
colors=[22,21],thick=[3,3],margin=0.6,spacing=1.5
;
end

That one again? Charles already posted that, or someone did anyway and it was completely debunked as being used for actual code for a useable product, hence the, Apply a VERY ARTIFICAL correction for decline!!

Your just digging yourself a hole Walter...

198 Racer X  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:51:26pm

re: #170 Dark_Falcon

the theory is that had Nixon's bad actions in Watergate not first hobbled then destroyed his administration, the US could have provided South Vietnam wit the aid and air support it needed to keep the North from invading. Remember, the fall of the South in 1975 came not from a popular uprising but from a crushing blitzkrieg from the North.

Quite similar to how the Blue Dress incident hobbled Clinton's ability to adequately deal with Saddam Hussein.

199 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:51:27pm

re: #186 Dark_Falcon

don't you dare 'don't you dare' me :p

200 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:51:28pm

re: #159 avanti

Do me a large favor and stay polite to Walter. He's put in a lot of work to support his opinion, disagree if you like, but at least he's giving us lots of points worthy of discussions, so let's debate them nicely.

Work is not the same thing as expertise.

201 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:51:51pm

re: #142 Obdicut

Oh my god. After all this build up, after all your hyping, all you have is the 'artificial correction' thingy, that'd been debunked for months now?

[Link: www.jgc.org...]

Again:

Your claim was that you could show an error in the code that led to an inaccuracy in the data. You have failed to do so.

I'm not getting into a flame war with you, or anyone.

202 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:52:08pm

re: #194 avanti

That's a hell of a leap. I can't know what is in Walter's head, but he has said many times that he is not a critic of AGW, just questions the one data set.

yes it is a leap and a disgusting one...I have zero use for that shit

203 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:52:08pm

m going to put on the troll from last night. Charcoal is lit, roast will be ready in 30 minutes.

204 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:52:15pm

re: #182 jamesfirecat

Okay then if you want to be a strict constructionist, you can be a strict constructionist.

Thank you Sir! (Mam?) that is all I am a strict Constructionist. I got no problem with you, just semantics of the law. This buds for you!

205 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:52:39pm

re: #203 Dark_Falcon

m going to put on the troll from last night. Charcoal is lit, roast will be ready in 30 minutes.

I missed a troll???
:(

206 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:53:27pm

re: #186 Dark_Falcon

He made the claim that he could show an actual inaccuracy in the data based on flaws in the code. He's failed to do so. He's failed to admit it, either. He just posted one of the first 'inaccurate code' things to be debunked.

He's deviated very far from his original claim of what he was going to do, and I haven't seen anything that's even new in what he presented. There isn't even a new claim.

Almost everything he's posting has to do with data before it comes into CRU, not CRU's interpretation of the data.

I'm not going to call it dishonest, but I am going to say it utterly failed to do what he claimed he could do, and talked about doing for days.

207 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:53:55pm

re: #204 brookly red

Thank you Sir! (Mam?) that is all I am a strict Constructionist. I got no problem with you, just semantics of the law. This buds for you!

heh...like it's an insult...doofus

208 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:54:02pm

re: #172 windsagio

I have to disagree with your main point.

He's being deeply dishonest. So deeply he might not even be able to admit it himself.

He can't directly go after AGW, so he's convinced himself that he's found a smoking gun... when he simply hasn't.

Beyond that, he just hasn't lived up to the claim he made for his essay, but he can't even admit that.

Whats the point if he's totally incapable of acting in good faith?

I'm done talking to Obdicut, and now you. Both of you have gone to snark, and that was not the purpose of my posting this. If you want to snark, email me and say what you want.

209 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:54:04pm

re: #201 Walter L. Newton

I'm not getting into a flame war with you, or anyone.


He's not flaming you, man!

210 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:54:14pm

re: #159 avanti

Do me a large favor and stay polite to Walter. He's put in a lot of work to support his opinion, disagree if you like, but at least he's giving us lots of points worthy of discussions, so let's debate them nicely.

AVANTI

I'm late to the "party", and we've had our disagreements ,, but unlimited UPDINGS for #159

211 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:54:15pm

re: #191 Walter L. Newton

I didn't report it, nor did I ask for it to be pulled down.


The thing is, I think that's where we're at.

You're so busy doing anything to raise doubts about the AGW data. You do it voraciously every time it comes up on the blog. Beyond that, when any 'scandal' or problem comes up, you like to go on about how this is a serious blow.


You had your big, carefully prepared shot, and unfortunately, it was just more of the same. In the end, a spade really is just a spade.

212 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:54:23pm

Is this the part where the stalker blog thinks I'm supposed to ban Walter?

Get off my blog, Walter!

/I kid

213 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:54:35pm

re: #198 Racer X

Quite similar to how the Blue Dress incident hobbled Clinton's ability to adequately deal with Saddam Hussein.

Just so. A very good comparison, Racer.

214 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:54:37pm

re: #179 Walter L. Newton

There is good climate science going on, there are good datasets to work with... but it's my opinion, and apparently Ian Harris' opinion that CRU was not producing a lot of good data.

But how do you fine "good data?" by it's correlation to empirical fact? How much skew is allowed for it to still be good data? I doubt any of the current data is 100% accurate either simply because it relies on man-made apparatus to be ascertained, and that's without going into issues of code quality and the like.

215 avanti  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:55:20pm

re: #177 Charles

Walter, believe me -- if you had shown a serious problem with the code that unarguably produced bad data, and if you had showed that this data was used in the real world and misled people as a result, I was totally ready to feature your piece on the front page.

But you didn't do that, sorry.

Hell yes, that would have made the Bush National Guard story into chump change. I agree, the question still hanging out there is not if there were problems in the data set, there clearly were, but were there errors that made any difference in the real world.

216 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:55:24pm

re: #204 brookly red

Thank you Sir! (Mam?) that is all I am a strict Constructionist. I got no problem with you, just semantics of the law. This buds for you!

It is sir.

If we manage to at some point throw on an Amendment to the constitution to make abortion legal would that settle your problems on the issue?

(Not sarcastic)

217 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:55:36pm

re: #208 Walter L. Newton

It's not snark, Walter. I'm pointing out that you've made a claim, failed to back it up, and aren't taking responsibility for it. It's a lot more direct than snark.

Can you explain your rational behind posting the 'artificial correction' code? Did you not do the research and see that that'd been debunked already?

218 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:55:41pm

re: #206 Obdicut

He made the claim that he could show an actual inaccuracy in the data based on flaws in the code. He's failed to do so. He's failed to admit it, either. He just posted one of the first 'inaccurate code' things to be debunked.

He's deviated very far from his original claim of what he was going to do, and I haven't seen anything that's even new in what he presented. There isn't even a new claim.

Almost everything he's posting has to do with data before it comes into CRU, not CRU's interpretation of the data.

I'm not going to call it dishonest, but I am going to say it utterly failed to do what he claimed he could do, and talked about doing for days.

Ian Harris...

“This still meant an awful lot of encounters with naughty Master stations, when really I suspect nobody else gives a hoot about. So with a somewhat cynical shrug, I added the nuclear option - to match every WMO possible, and turn the rest into new stations (er, CLIMAT excepted). In other words, what CRU usually do. It will allow bad databases to pass unnoticed, and good databases to become bad, but I really don't think people care enough to fix 'em, and it's the main reason the project is nearly a year late.”

219 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:55:45pm

re: #185 Walter L. Newton

I don't know about the context of your quote, but I will agree with you that if the data itself is faulty, then the comments about "programmers find bugs and they fix them" doesn't do anything for the fact that the data is, in fact, bad. Again, I don't see from your snippets whether it was bad data being generated, or data being interpreted badly. You're saying it was generated badly; perhaps that's the case.

220 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:55:49pm

Boy, I tell you what:

For solid American vices, nothing beats a cup of black coffee and a pipe full of Prince Albert. Damn, but that's a good combo - better even than a filterless Lucky Strike with coffee.

221 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:55:54pm

re: #208 Walter L. Newton

I'm hugely surprised that you'd want to disengage at this point.

Hows this tho'... Admit that your essay totally failed to do what you claimed it would, that you didn't meet your original claim, and we can all play nice again.

222 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:56:07pm

re: #205 Varek Raith

I missed a troll???
:(

The troll was clubbed last night. Sadly, I was out of charcoal, so I put the troll in the freezer until tonight.

223 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:56:11pm

Scientists are creating and employing complex Climate model software every day...We need to invest in this big time...They need the best tools available.
Now...
In the 80's I was playing Atari 2600 baseball with my friends..Computers were crude then..Don't be going back to the 80's and nitpicking data..That doesn't fly...
The year is 2010....

224 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:56:41pm

re: #222 Dark_Falcon

The troll was clubbed last night. Sadly, I was out of charcoal, so I put the troll in the freezer until tonight.

Ooh! Nothing like letting the meat age a bit - enzymes and such soften up the flesh and contribute their own flavors.

225 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:57:10pm

re: #206 Obdicut

He made the claim that he could show an actual inaccuracy in the data based on flaws in the code. He's failed to do so. He's failed to admit it, either. He just posted one of the first 'inaccurate code' things to be debunked.

He's deviated very far from his original claim of what he was going to do, and I haven't seen anything that's even new in what he presented. There isn't even a new claim.

Almost everything he's posting has to do with data before it comes into CRU, not CRU's interpretation of the data.

I'm not going to call it dishonest, but I am going to say it utterly failed to do what he claimed he could do, and talked about doing for days.

That's the point though, right? If the data is bad, then the reliability of any subsequent massaging is subjective at best.

226 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:57:13pm

re: #217 Obdicut

you've made a claim, failed to back it up, and aren't taking responsibility for it
And reading through the thread he believes he DID "back up" his claim. So where does that leave us?

Seems as it's the same place we started!

227 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:57:14pm

re: #211 windsagio

I didn't report it, nor did I ask for it to be pulled down.

The thing is, I think that's where we're at.

You're so busy doing anything to raise doubts about the AGW data. You do it voraciously every time it comes up on the blog. Beyond that, when any 'scandal' or problem comes up, you like to go on about how this is a serious blow.

You had your big, carefully prepared shot, and unfortunately, it was just more of the same. In the end, a spade really is just a spade.

if Walter is a liar, you are a liar....that was a low blow

228 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:58:17pm

re: #205 Varek Raith

I missed a troll???
:(

/your over fishing has caused a depletion in the stock and is seriously in danger of causing a global crisis ... your self centered consumption of trolls will singled handedly result in the end of life on the planet. I hope your happy now.

229 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:58:25pm

Woo hoo! Looks like the claws and fangs are coming out!

230 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:58:49pm

re: #227 albusteve

if Walter is a liar, you are a liar...that was a low blow

Trying to figure out how that could possibly work...

231 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:58:57pm

re: #212 Charles

Is this the part where the stalker blog thinks I'm supposed to ban Walter?

Get off my blog, Walter!

/I kid

And on a side note. I have not seen or communicated with anyone, stalker or other non Lizard, off this blog. I had four active Lizards review this essay for content and readability, but other than that, it's just me and you kid.

And I didn't expect you to ban me or delete the post.

232 Racer X  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:59:02pm

IMHO - I think Walter did what he set out to do. He showed there was more usage of inaccurate data than previously believed.

Did it affect the bottom line when it comes to AGW? I dunno.

233 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:59:04pm

re: #225 cliffster

The point is that Walter made the claim that he could show problems in the code that resulted in inaccuracies in the data. Not problems with the datasets. His claim was that he'd show buggy code producing inaccuracies.

Obviously some of the datasets are whahooney-- that's why it's a good thing we've got so damn many different types to check against each other.

234 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:59:05pm

re: #228 brookly red

/your over fishing has caused a depletion in the stock and is seriously in danger of causing a global crisis ... your self centered consumption of trolls will singled handedly result in the end of life on the planet. I hope your happy now.

But there's still at least 8 or 10 breeding pair kept in captivity. We can replenish stocks in short order.

235 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:59:12pm

re: #207 albusteve

heh...like it's an insult...doofus

no a badge of honor.

236 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:59:53pm

re: #221 windsagio

I'm hugely surprised that you'd want to disengage at this point.

Hows this tho'... Admit that your essay totally failed to do what you claimed it would, that you didn't meet your original claim, and we can all play nice again.

“This still meant an awful lot of encounters with naughty Master stations, when really I suspect nobody else gives a hoot about. So with a somewhat cynical shrug, I added the nuclear option - to match every WMO possible, and turn the rest into new stations (er, CLIMAT excepted). In other words, what CRU usually do. It will allow bad databases to pass unnoticed, and good databases to become bad, but I really don't think people care enough to fix 'em, and it's the main reason the project is nearly a year late.”

237 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:59:57pm

By the way, Walter, even though I don't think you proved your case, I want to thank you for putting that together and following through. I did learn some things by reading it.

238 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 5:59:59pm

re: #229 Guanxi88

there are 2 things that'll seriously piss me off on here.

The first is someone who doesn't know what the FUCK they're talking about going off about MRDD issues, and especially autism.

The second is people posting on this blog in bad faith.

239 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:00:01pm

re: #221 windsagio

I'm hugely surprised that you'd want to disengage at this point.

Hows this tho'... Admit that your essay totally failed to do what you claimed it would, that you didn't meet your original claim, and we can all play nice again.

see 226

(and btw ,,, the patronizing "and we can all play nice again" ,,,,, doesn't sit well!)

240 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:00:27pm

re: #225 cliffster

That's the point though, right? If the data is bad, then the reliability of any subsequent massaging is subjective at best.

“This still meant an awful lot of encounters with naughty Master stations, when really I suspect nobody else gives a hoot about. So with a somewhat cynical shrug, I added the nuclear option - to match every WMO possible, and turn the rest into new stations (er, CLIMAT excepted). In other words, what CRU usually do. It will allow bad databases to pass unnoticed, and good databases to become bad, but I really don't think people care enough to fix 'em, and it's the main reason the project is nearly a year late.”

241 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:00:28pm

re: #234 Guanxi88

But there's still at least 8 or 10 breeding pair kept in captivity. We can replenish stocks in short order.

I hope to never see the day we're reduced to tofuroll.

242 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:00:43pm

re: #233 Obdicut

The point is that Walter made the claim that he could show problems in the code that resulted in inaccuracies in the data. Not problems with the datasets. His claim was that he'd show buggy code producing inaccuracies.

Obviously some of the datasets are whahooney-- that's why it's a good thing we've got so damn many different types to check against each other.

Can you explain that?

243 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:00:50pm

re: #237 Charles

By the way, Walter, even though I don't think you proved your case, I want to thank you for putting that together and following through. I did learn some things by reading it.

And I learned some thing too. You welcome.

244 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:00:53pm

re: #234 Guanxi88

But there's still at least 8 or 10 breeding pair kept in captivity. We can replenish stocks in short order.

Trolls can only breed if they figure out that's its important to get out of their parents' basement. :D

245 avanti  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:01:23pm

re: #212 Charles

Is this the part where the stalker blog thinks I'm supposed to ban Walter?

Get off my blog, Walter!

/I kid

They were told to cut and paste Walter's posts before the evil overlord deleted them./

246 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:01:26pm

re: #237 Charles

By the way, Walter, even though I don't think you proved your case, I want to thank you for putting that together and following through. I did learn some things by reading it.

You actually read all that crap?
*wink*

247 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:01:32pm

re: #118 avanti

I don't see winners and losers. I see Walter did a lot of work to generate a discussion of the issues. No matter which side of the discussion you are on, it's not about winning and losing, it's about looking at both sides.
I don't think we can prove that the data was perfect or flawed, but we can see the struggle involved in gathering it. I'd be more interested in seeing how the data set in question differs from the others to show accuracy.

Repeated, for the acknowledgment of Walter's hard work.

248 Bear  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:01:41pm

Walter, thank you for all the work you have done.

249 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:01:54pm

re: #238 windsagio

there are 2 things that'll seriously piss me off on here.

The first is someone who doesn't know what the FUCK they're talking about going off about MRDD issues, and especially autism.

The second is people posting on this blog in bad faith.

Me, too. My #1 Son, soon to be 4, is still uncommunicative - but a good and sweet and bright boy. Yours truly? I was sent in for a diagnosis contemporaneously with #1 son - given the history of these peculiarities in my family, the MD's thought it best. Yep, I'm there with my boy.

And as for bad faith postings, eh, it happens everywhere, but rarely here.

250 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:02:00pm

re: #248 Bear

Walter, thank you for all the work you have done.

Ditto

251 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:02:09pm

re: #240 Walter L. Newton

Walter, are you going to explain how you think those bolded sentences prove what you claimed-- that you could show that problematic code produced inaccurate results?

I'm not sure why you keep bolding that over and over.

252 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:02:13pm

re: #250 sattv4u2

Ditto

Tritto

253 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:02:16pm

BBIAM - have to fill the pellet stove with 40 pounds of wood chips.

254 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:02:29pm

re: #230 windsagio

Trying to figure out how that could possibly work...

I'll bet...if you added a tenth to any thread that Walters does, someone might notice...mostly your an opportunistic shark, more interested in piling on, hitching onto other peoples criticism....why don't you answer my question upthread about the NVA/RSVN?....too busy following Walters critics around?

255 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:03:00pm

re: #244 Dark_Falcon

Trolls can only breed if they figure out that's its important to get out of their parents' basement. :D

I thought they bred via mutual exchange of teh crazy; this doesn't require physical interaction, and is in fact facilitated if they DON'T meet their breeding partner.

256 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:03:09pm

re: #40 jamesfirecat

I'd argue (proving your point that both sides want to point fingers) that I feel the left isn't quite as radical as the right, as the Code Pink/Communists don't have their own major news network cheering them on the way the Tea Party people have Faux News...

This is a good point, and Air America went kaputz recently too.

257 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:03:13pm

re: #237 Charles

re: #243 Walter L. Newton

Thank you for that gentlemen. That was a smart and civil exchange, truly a gold standard for debate. Both parties were respectful and answered the other's arguements, rather than just putting out talking points.

258 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:03:23pm

re: #228 brookly red

/your over fishing has caused a depletion in the stock and is seriously in danger of causing a global crisis ... your self centered consumption of trolls will singled handedly result in the end of life on the planet. I hope your happy now.

Yes, need moar troll meat....
Nom nom nom!

259 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:03:43pm

re: #246 HoosierHoops

You actually read all that crap?
*wink*

Just like back in school ,,, I'll wait till the Cliff Notes version is available ,,, then, when I don';t even undrstand THAT, pay some smart kid to write my paper for me in exchange of letting him hang out with the hockey team for a week!

260 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:03:50pm

re: #233 Obdicut

The point is that Walter made the claim that he could show problems in the code that resulted in inaccuracies in the data. Not problems with the datasets. His claim was that he'd show buggy code producing inaccuracies.

Obviously some of the datasets are whahooney-- that's why it's a good thing we've got so damn many different types to check against each other.

you are becoming redundant to the point of real boredom...you've said this several times

261 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:04:02pm

re: #249 Guanxi88

My condolances, its a tough thing to deal with.

I sometimes wonder if its worse for the parents (who often feel guilty), or for the siblings (who often have to deal with some pretty difficult behavior).

262 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:04:07pm

re: #216 jamesfirecat

It is sir.

If we manage to at some point throw on an Amendment to the constitution to make abortion legal would that settle your problems on the issue?

(Not sarcastic)

Keep your freakin hands of my Constitution ... you don't seem to get it. I got no problem with abortion, my problem is abortion on a federal level... not in the Constitution. Just ain't there... if your state says it OK, no problem, abort away!

263 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:04:32pm

re: #255 Guanxi88

I thought they bred via mutual exchange of teh crazy; this doesn't require physical interaction, and is in fact facilitated if they DON'T meet their breeding partner.

LOL! Loves it.

264 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:04:41pm

CHARLES

Thanks for giving Walter (and the rest of us) this forum to hash things like this out

265 Racer X  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:05:05pm

re: #238 windsagio

there are 2 things that'll seriously piss me off on here.

The first is someone who doesn't know what the FUCK they're talking about going off about MRDD issues, and especially autism.

The second is people posting on this blog in bad faith.

You accused Walter of posting in bad faith.

1. Walter clearly knows what he is talking about.
2. I have never seen Walter post ANYTHING in bad faith.

Love him or hate him - he is always straight up.

266 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:05:14pm

re: #242 cliffster

I'm not sure what to say. Walter made the claim that he'd show errors in the code that produced inaccurate results. He hasn't done so. That some of the datasets-- some of the instrument records-- were problematic or in error everyone knew already. Walter's claim was about the code at CRU producing inaccuracies through bugginess-- which he's done nothing to prove.

re: #260 albusteve

Why do you think that is, Steve?

267 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:05:31pm

re: #258 Varek Raith

Yes, need moar troll meat...
Nom nom nom!

All we have to do is open registration, let in a few trolls and then catch and grill 'em.

/kidding

268 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:05:45pm

re: #256 eclectic infidel

This is a good point, and Air America went kaputz recently too.

not to mention the fact that most people haven't even heard Air America!! I couldn't even find it on the radio. I don't know the numbers, but I'd imagine their audience was measly compared to Fox News --- in the South, I've heard that you can get Fox News without having cable. Murdoch, what a businessman - kind of like Rockefeller, and just as evil too.

269 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:05:55pm

Walter, while I disagree with your conclusion, I fully thank and appreciate the work you put into your essay.
*raises coffee mug*

270 avanti  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:06:11pm

re: #251 Obdicut

Walter, are you going to explain how you think those bolded sentences prove what you claimed-- that you could show that problematic code produced inaccurate results?

I'm not sure why you keep bolding that over and over.

I think that's it in a nutshell now. How do we find out if the one data set was flawed in the end, and if so, does it change the total picture.

271 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:06:49pm

re: #266 Obdicut

Well, ok. You said, "the problem is with the data, not the datasets" Or maybe vice versa. I don't really understand what you are thinking is the difference.

272 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:06:57pm

re: #183 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Walter? Thanks for the time you put into this... and I was able to read it. Didn't understand it all, but grabbed the gist.

Charles? What a great site this is. Thanks for the work you do.

Everybody? Be excellent to each other.

I know I'm just repeating other posts.
But, I believe they bear repeating.
Mostly they're regarding civility.
True Lizards are civil.

273 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:07:06pm

re: #256 eclectic infidel

This is a good point, and Air America went kaputz recently too.

Plus I don't really think that Air America can be considered the equal of Fox, in either size of shape.

Granted I haven't done that much watching of MSNBC, but do they com out in favor of Code Pink crazies?

274 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:07:16pm

re: #261 windsagio

My condolances, its a tough thing to deal with.

I sometimes wonder if its worse for the parents (who often feel guilty), or for the siblings (who often have to deal with some pretty difficult behavior).

Parent, I'd say. #1 & #2 daughters don't know there's anything "wrong" with their brother, whereas I, at least, question the wisdom of having children at all, given what I now know about my genetic stock.

Oh, the fights the wife & I had when we got the news about #1 son and me! "You knew your nephews all had problems, you knew you had 'weird' relatives not too far back, and yet....."

I feel worst for the parent who isn't a likely carrier; they feel absolutely helpless. Me, I've got some vague idea at least of what our son's going through - having endured a version of it myself. But the idea that your brain isn't properly coordinated with the world around you is more ore less incomprehensible, I guess, to those who don't know what it's like.

275 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:07:43pm

re: #262 brookly red

Keep your freakin hands of my Constitution ... you don't seem to get it. I got no problem with abortion, my problem is abortion on a federal level... not in the Constitution. Just ain't there... if your state says it OK, no problem, abort away!

Do you have a problem with the idea that the Congress can add amendments to the constitution?

276 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:07:58pm

re: #254 albusteve

I really really really really hate Windie, and try to pick a fight every time I see 'em.

Fixt.

277 avanti  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:07:58pm

re: #265 Racer X

You accused Walter of posting in bad faith.

1. Walter clearly knows what he is talking about.
2. I have never seen Walter post ANYTHING in bad faith.

Love him or hate him - he is always straight up.

I friggin hate him, he's often been in pain in my ass, but I'll defend him as a honest man to the end. /

278 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:08:14pm

Let's take a look at what a weather station is:
according to wikipedia

# Thermometer for measuring temperature
# Barometer for measuring barometric pressure/air pressure
# Hygrometer for measuring humidity
# Anemometer for measuring wind speed
# Wind vane for measuring wind direction
# Rain gauge for measuring precipitation


Here's a nice pic of what I suspect to be a fairly modern one
Image: Weather_Station_USDA.jpg

Now hundreds of thousands of these things are just stuck out in the middle of nowhere all over the world. I bet a significant number of them have calibration problems at any point in time which causes them to produce BAD DATA.

The computer databases and code used to compile them are not the only potential point of failure when it come to gathering climate information. The instruments themselves most likely fail on a regular basis.

OH NO!!! WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO??

Most likely we are going to write software algorithms which account for abnormalities in the data and correct them. I see no reason why there can't be self-correcting code for other kinds of errors as well.

279 Racer X  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:08:16pm
280 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:08:55pm

re: #265 Racer X

I've said it a few times, and I'll say it again. He's concern-trolling.

In fairness, he might not see what he's doing himself, but its pretty clear.

281 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:09:09pm

re: #266 Obdicut

I'm not sure what to say. Walter made the claim that he'd show errors in the code that produced inaccurate results. He hasn't done so. That some of the datasets-- some of the instrument records-- were problematic or in error everyone knew already. Walter's claim was about the code at CRU producing inaccuracies through bugginess-- which he's done nothing to prove.

re: #260 albusteve

Why do you think that is, Steve?


when someone needs to express their point of view over and over I just quit listening...it becomes so much blather, noise

282 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:09:16pm

re: #273 jamesfirecat

Plus I don't really think that Air America can be considered the equal of Fox, in either size of shape.

Granted I haven't done that much watching of MSNBC, but do they com out in favor of Code Pink crazies?

MSNBC is really not that liberal, except for Olbermann and Maddow. I don't remember anything about Code Pink, but I didn't really watch them during the first 5 or 6 years of Bush's term.

283 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:09:40pm

re: #275 jamesfirecat

Do you have a problem with the idea that the Congress can add amendments to the constitution?

No, it can't.

284 Racer X  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:09:44pm

re: #280 windsagio

I think you owe Walter an apology.

285 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:09:48pm

re: #275 jamesfirecat

Do you have a problem with the idea that the Congress can add amendments to the constitution?

well you go ahead and try it, and show some fucking respect and use a cap C in Constitution, OK?

286 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:09:50pm

re: #268 Vambo

not to mention the fact that most people haven't even heard Air America!! I couldn't even find it on the radio. I don't know the numbers, but I'd imagine their audience was measly compared to Fox News

I did listen a few times when it first kicked off.

My reaction:
1. BORING.
2. Exceptionally so.
3. Whiny
4. Without substance.

287 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:10:03pm
288 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:10:14pm

re: #282 Vambo

MSNBC is really not that liberal, except for Olbermann and Maddow. I don't remember anything about Code Pink, but I didn't really watch them during the first 5 or 6 years of Bush's term.

It's comments like that that make it easy for me to understand why liberals say that Obama is a "center" president.

289 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:10:17pm

re: #275 jamesfirecat

Do you have a problem with the idea that the Congress can add amendments to the constitution?

Wait...what?

290 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:10:21pm

re: #271 cliffster

Data comes in, interpretation of the data goes out. What matters is if the code at CRU interprets the data correctly-- does it mash it all together, average it, adjust for margins of error, perform the various mathematical functions that legitimately perform a statistical analysis on the data.


Here's the RealClimate on it:

[Link: www.realclimate.org...]

Now, it is well known that these data are not perfect. Most records are not as complete as could be wished. Errors periodically creep in and have to be identified and weeded out. But beyond the simple errors of the key-entry type there are inevitably discontinuities or inhomogeneities introduced into the records due to changes in observing practices, station environment, or other non-meteorological factors. It is very unlikely there is any historical record in existence unaffected by this issue.

SNIP


Conclusion: There is no indication whatsoever of any problem with the CRU data. An independent study (by a molecular biologist it Italy, as it happens) came to the same conclusion using a somewhat different analysis. None of this should come as any surprise of course, since any serious errors would have been found and published already.
291 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:10:25pm

re: #270 avanti

I think that's it in a nutshell now. How do we find out if the one data set was flawed in the end, and if so, does it change the total picture.

HOLD THE WEDDIN,,, I don't beleive the point was to show it changed the "total picture".
I've had discussions on here with Walter and he has NEVER denied AGW. Quite the contrary, as soon as a denier pops up here Walter is one of the 1st and foremost to "show him the light" (or more aptly, HEAT)

Don't put up a goal that Walter never stated he was aiming for

292 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:10:25pm

re: #277 avanti

I friggin hate him, he's often been in pain in my ass, but I'll defend him as a honest man to the end. /

LOL
Hi Chief! Good to tease you again.. Has your son released any more music?
I changed laptops and lost his web site.. Could you post again...
Dude your kid is awesome

293 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:10:32pm

First off, it is much easier to read the document when it is in one piece. So, if it helps, download the PDF.

Second. Ian Harris has 314 pages of a three year narrative about his work with the legacy programs at CRU. I summarized some of more important sections of his narrative, but there is much more in his document.

Download this essay in PDF format

Download Ian Harris' 314 pages of programmers notes in PDF format

294 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:10:54pm

re: #224 Guanxi88

Ooh! Nothing like letting the meat age a bit - enzymes and such soften up the flesh and contribute their own flavors.

And, every snarky comment against Walter translates into the Troll meat softener. Whacking away. Should be TENDER Troll tonight. Plus, it was marinated!

295 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:11:24pm

re: #286 eclectic infidel

I did listen a few times when it first kicked off.

My reaction:
1. BORING.
2. Exceptionally so.
3. Whiny
4. Without substance.

I never got to hear it. I liked Maddow when she used to be on Olbermann's show, I'm sick of her now. (I never liked Olbermann)

296 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:11:33pm

re: #266 Obdicut

By analogy, Walter smelled then saw smoke and called out fire. Turns out it was a trash fire. But damn he put in the effort and took his fair shot at showing the data. Didn't work out as he thought. Sounds like something that happens, when investigations happen. I see nothing disingenuous or out of bounds. Walter has my respect for his effort. it's not as bad as he though and said. I can live with that mistake, and respect his future posts as well worth reading.

297 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:11:43pm

re: #284 Racer X

I think you owe Walter an apology.

not likely...they are getting the attention so important to them

298 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:12:10pm

re: #283 MandyManners

No, it can't.

Then who can?

299 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:12:25pm

re: #296 Rightwingconspirator

Walter has my respect for his effort. He'd have more respect from me if he followed his efforts to their logical conclusions, and say that he was unable to prove his claim.

300 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:12:26pm

re: #290 Obdicut

Yes, I understand that. I guess it was with your choice of terms, data vs dataset. As I asked above, it's a question of whether the originally harvested data is bad. And Walter says yes.

301 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:12:29pm

re: #284 Racer X

I tend to disagree :p

All he really needs to do is come halfway and acknowledge that his essay doesn't at all prove what he claimed it did. It is an interesting read, and I got some good info out of it. The conclusions are just unproven bunk.

/really, I should just bail from this thread in general. Taking on a popular member of the tribe simply doesn't do me any good at all.

302 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:12:58pm

re: #289 Varek Raith

Wait...what?

disconnected...just more blather

303 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:13:06pm

re: #294 Floral Giraffe

And, every snarky comment against Walter translates into the Troll meat softener. Whacking away. Should be TENDER Troll tonight. Plus, it was marinated!

Now, there's some conflict of opinion on the matter. There are at least two schools of thought:

1) The first holds that the panicked reaction of the troll releases stress hormones that makes the meat gamey and unappealing; but
2) Other hold that the longer the chase is kept up, the "cleaner" is the meat, which needs only be dressed and hung a bit to be more than suitable for the table.

It's one of those things - de gustibus non disputandum est.

304 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:13:09pm

re: #195 Varek Raith

You know, just go away. It's is most certainly not my, nor many others, philosophy.

Not mine, either.


re: #193 Vambo

That's an insult? I thought you guys would agree with me.

Perhaps it's time to rethink your thinking.

305 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:13:16pm

re: #298 jamesfirecat

Then who can?

google it

306 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:13:27pm

re: #289 Varek Raith

Wait...what?

I'd asked him if he'd be okay with Federal Abortion if we passed an amendment expressively giving that power to the Federal Government.

He replied.

"Keep your freakin hands of my Constitution ... you don't seem to get it. I got no problem with abortion, my problem is abortion on a federal level... not in the Constitution. Just ain't there... if your state says it OK, no problem, abort away!"

307 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:13:31pm

re: #300 cliffster

The 'harvested' data is known to contain errors, because the world isn't a perfect realm. Please see the RealClimate piece I linked above.

308 avanti  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:13:35pm

re: #299 Obdicut

Walter has my respect for his effort. He'd have more respect from me if he followed his efforts to their logical conclusions, and say that he was unable to prove his claim.

I lost track of what his claim was.

309 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:13:37pm

re: #298 jamesfirecat

To Propose Amendments

* Two-thirds of both houses of Congress vote to propose an amendment, or

* Two-thirds of the state legislatures ask Congress to call a national convention to propose amendments. (This method has never been used.)

To Ratify Amendments

* Three-fourths of the state legislatures approve it, or

* Ratifying conventions in three-fourths of the states approve it. This method has been used only once -- to ratify the 21st Amendment -- repealing Prohibition.

310 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:13:50pm

re: #288 cliffster

It's comments like that that make it easy for me to understand why liberals say that Obama is a "center" president.

It's comments like these that make it easy for me to understand why partisan buffoons like you hate Obama - hint: he is a center president.

311 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:14:46pm

re: #290 Obdicut

Data comes in, interpretation of the data goes out. What matters is if the code at CRU interprets the data correctly-- does it mash it all together, average it, adjust for margins of error, perform the various mathematical functions that legitimately perform a statistical analysis on the data.

Here's the RealClimate on it:

[Link: www.realclimate.org...]

Big difference is a lot of these errors were not identified in the live programs that CRU used until 2006 onward, by Ian Harris. That's a simple fact that Ian Harris documents over and over.

This would be the same as if YOU were hired at some financial firm to maintain some financial programs, programs that were used daily by the company, and you started to find out that the programs were loosing money for the company for years and years.

312 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:14:56pm

re: #288 cliffster

It's comments like that that make it easy for me to understand why liberals say that Obama is a "center" president.

Concur. If you think MSNBC is not liberal, then Brookly has a bridge he'd like to talk to you about buying.

313 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:15:02pm

re: #298 jamesfirecat

Then who can?

Have you even read the Constitution? Look up Article V.

314 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:15:28pm

re: #310 Vambo

careful man, don't flame out on us!

315 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:15:32pm

re: #298 jamesfirecat

Then who can?

{sigh}

You want to talk about history, the constitution, and last night what the founders had in mind (majority rules) , but have no concept of what they set up or how it works

316 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:15:47pm

re: #312 Dark_Falcon

Concur. If you think MSNBC is not liberal, then Brookly has a bridge he'd like to talk to you about buying.

rent... not buy.

317 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:15:49pm

re: #301 windsagio

I tend to disagree :p

All he really needs to do is come halfway and acknowledge that his essay doesn't at all prove what he claimed it did. It is an interesting read, and I got some good info out of it. The conclusions are just unproven bunk.

/really, I should just bail from this thread in general. Taking on a popular member of the tribe simply doesn't do me any good at all.


calling a poster a liar and a troll for his efforts is a dead end....take a long look at your own style while you are gone....and drop the stupid tribal pretense

318 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:15:56pm

re: #305 albusteve

google it

Says here


[Link: www.usconstitution.net...]

We need a 2/3rds majority vote in both houses of our legislative body, or "congress" like I said. That's what you call the Senate and the house of Representatives put together isn't it?

319 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:16:23pm

re: #310 Vambo

It's comments like these that make it easy for me to understand why partisan buffoons like you hate Obama - hint: he is a center president.

If memory serves, then you are historically an asshole every time I see you posting here. So I'll give you credit for being consistent.

320 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:16:38pm

re: #312 Dark_Falcon

Concur. If you think MSNBC is not liberal, then Brookly has a bridge he'd like to talk to you about buying.

is MSNBC the liberal equivalent to Fox News? I'm so sorry that liberals exist and sometimes get careers as journalists or pundits.

321 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:17:00pm

re: #299 Obdicut

Walter has my respect for his effort. He'd have more respect from me if he followed his efforts to their logical conclusions, and say that he was unable to prove his claim.

re: #301 windsagio

I tend to disagree :p

All he really needs to do is come halfway and acknowledge that his essay doesn't at all prove what he claimed it did. It is an interesting read, and I got some good info out of it. The conclusions are just unproven bunk.

/really, I should just bail from this thread in general. Taking on a popular member of the tribe simply doesn't do me any good at all.

You are saying that Ian Harris conclusions are unproven bunk?

322 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:17:05pm

re: #317 albusteve


calling a poster a liar and a troll for his efforts is a dead end...take a long look at your own style while you are gone...and drop the stupid tribal pretense

they love the labels... it gives them a sense belonging.

323 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:17:20pm

re: #310 Vambo

It's comments like these that make it easy for me to understand why partisan buffoons like you hate Obama - hint: he is a center president.

Center, no. Center-left, probably. Left, possibly. Extreme Left, no. Socialist, no. Commie, most certainly not.

Or some such.

324 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:17:20pm

re: #318 jamesfirecat

Says here

[Link: www.usconstitution.net...]

We need a 2/3rds majority vote in both houses of our legislative body, or "congress" like I said. That's what you call the Senate and the house of Representatives put together isn't it?

I have no comment

325 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:17:27pm

re: #317 albusteve

You know how it is, there's something that like it or not, you think is true.

In general, you keep it down because you know it won't be a popular position, and will get abuse heaped on you... Especially if you're talking about someone else whose a popular person.

The thing is, like it or not, that's what you feel is right... what's the solution?

326 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:17:36pm

re: #313 MandyManners

Have you even read the Constitution? Look up Article V.

And, no, I won't give you a link as I did for Marx. Do your own work.

327 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:17:42pm

re: #308 avanti

Well, he's shifted it around a few times.

He said he'd show inaccuracies in the code. He also said this:

Well Charles, any one section of code may have calls to other procedures or functions that may or may not reflect on what is happening with any set of data.

I have in mind a section of code that takes input from a flat file and parses it... badly... with no checks for invalid data coming in, no "scrubbing," nothing to prevent invalid records from being created. But that procedure calls other functions.

328 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:17:51pm

re: #320 Vambo

is MSNBC the liberal equivalent to Fox News? I'm so sorry that liberals exist and sometimes get careers as journalists or pundits.


SOEMTIMES?!?!?!

329 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:18:28pm

re: #318 jamesfirecat

Says here


[Link: www.usconstitution.net...]

We need a 2/3rds majority vote in both houses of our legislative body, or "congress" like I said. That's what you call the Senate and the house of Representatives put together isn't it?

AAARRRGGGHHH

330 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:18:30pm

re: #311 Walter L. Newton

Can you please explain exactly what in the RealClimate analysis you disagree with?

It's a short, simple piece.

331 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:18:37pm

re: #275 jamesfirecat

Do you have a problem with the idea that the Congress can add amendments to the constitution?

Um, no. It can't.
State legislatures have to vote on these if 2/3 majority in each House approves the proposal.

332 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:18:39pm

re: #310 Vambo

You don't deserve a civil response to that, so fuck off!

333 avanti  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:18:41pm

re: #311 Walter L. Newton

Big difference is a lot of these errors were not identified in the live programs that CRU used until 2006 onward, by Ian Harris. That's a simple fact that Ian Harris documents over and over.

This would be the same as if YOU were hired at some financial firm to maintain some financial programs, programs that were used daily by the company, and you started to find out that the programs were loosing money for the company for years and years.

OK, assume for the sake of discussion, the pre 2006 data was corrupt, how bad was it, and how far off from the the rest of the data sets was it ?

334 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:18:44pm

re: #321 Walter L. Newton

I"m saying, simply, that they're not the conclusions you're claiming. They're a log for a work in progress. You still haven't shown convincingly that the problems he was trying to fix led to any incorrect data being published. Isn't that the claim?

335 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:18:51pm

re: #310 Vambo

It's comments like these that make it easy for me to understand why partisan buffoons like you hate Obama - hint: he is a center president.

Center, as in directly between your cheeks.

336 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:18:52pm

re: #273 jamesfirecat

Plus I don't really think that Air America can be considered the equal of Fox, in either size of shape.

Granted I haven't done that much watching of MSNBC, but do they com out in favor of Code Pink crazies?

Air America lacked chutzpah. It was a dwarf of a dwarf compared to Fox.

Code Pink is an organization that has recently attached itself to larger organizations for exposure but overall, is still largely ignored. They tend to get local coverage but at the huge anti-war rallies they are just another group among the jerks.

On a personal note, I used to be rather neutral towards Code Pink although I did think they were being jerks to the Marines in Berkeley. With respect to their recent attachment to larger organizations, Code Pink has joined the BDS movement against Israel and is now rubbing shoulders with some bad elements - with full eagerness no less. It's another case of irony among the left-wingnuts.

337 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:18:56pm

re: #323 Varek Raith

Center, no. Center-left, probably. Left, possibly. Extreme Left, no. Socialist, no. Commie, most certainly not.

Or some such.

Regardless ,,, I'll bet HE can get on an elevator!!

//

338 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:19:00pm

re: #323 Varek Raith

Center, no. Center-left, probably. Left, possibly. Extreme Left, no. Socialist, no. Commie, most certainly not.

Or some such.

center-left, definitely. I think some people here have a problem with anyone who tries to appeal to liberals, because it's not like we're Americans too or whatever.

339 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:19:21pm

re: #329 MandyManners

AAARRRGGGHHH

Concur.

340 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:19:53pm

re: #328 sattv4u2

SOEMTIMES?!?!?!

OMG SO SORRY LIBRUL MEDIA ELITE etc etc.

341 jaunte  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:19:59pm

I hear violins.

342 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:20:01pm

re: #337 sattv4u2

Regardless ,,, I'll bet HE can get on an elevator!!

//

Lol, I got zinged.
:)

343 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:20:17pm

re: #338 Vambo

In general, American's wouldn't know the real left if it bit them on the Ass :p

344 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:20:25pm

re: #326 MandyManners

And, no, I won't give you a link as I did for Marx. Do your own work.

"The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate."

It says it right there at the top one of the ways to change the constitution starts with a 2/3rds vote in both houses of "the Congress" like I said back in my original post.

So Mandy why did you say the Congress couldn't amend the Constitution?

345 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:20:26pm

re: #335 brookly red

Center, as in directly between your cheeks.

Crackist!

346 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:20:31pm

re: #311 Walter L. Newton

Big difference is a lot of these errors were not identified in the live programs that CRU used until 2006 onward, by Ian Harris. That's a simple fact that Ian Harris documents over and over.

This would be the same as if YOU were hired at some financial firm to maintain some financial programs, programs that were used daily by the company, and you started to find out that the programs were loosing money for the company for years and years.

Thats is where your call to Walter is a bit much, Obdicut.

347 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:20:37pm

re: #341 jaunte

I hear violins.

That's tinnitus, better see a doctor.

348 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:20:42pm

re: #312 Dark_Falcon

Concur. If you think MSNBC is not liberal, then Brookly has a bridge he'd like to talk to you about buying.

Ever watch their morning show?

Matthews is pretty much a centrist who chooses at random who he's going to side with and who he's going to bash, Maddow wears her liberal bias on her sleeve but is a damn good political analyst overall and Olberman wears clown shoes.

349 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:21:00pm

re: #338 Vambo

Why don't you take your partisan hater ass over to the Daily Kos, where you'll be more at home.

350 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:21:02pm

re: #343 windsagio

ARGH! EXTRA ' !!!!

351 TampaKnight  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:21:28pm

re: #348 Conservative Moonbat

Ever watch their morning show?

Matthews is pretty much a centrist who chooses at random who he's going to side with and who he's going to bash, Maddow wears her liberal bias on her sleeve but is a damn good political analyst overall and Olberman wears clown shoes.

She's a good political analyst as a champion of the left.

352 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:21:30pm

re: #330 Obdicut

Specifically, Walter, do you disagree with this?

Results are shown in the following figures. The key points: both Set A and Set B indicate warming with trends that are statistically identical between the CRU data and the raw data (>99% confidence); the histograms show that CRU quality control has, as expected, narrowed the variance (both extreme positive and negative values removed).

353 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:21:30pm

re: #310 Vambo

It's comments like these that make it easy for me to understand why partisan buffoons like you hate Obama - hint: he is a center president.

He's not as liberal as I thought he would be, based on the campaign.

And, I will admit I am partisan, I think most of us probably are, which is why we have 2 major political parties and a bunch of small ones. It's the nature of the game, and it is our right and our responsibility to be informed and have opinions, which makes for "partisanship".

Finally - I wouldn't have dinged you down except for the "buffoon" comment. Just unnecessary to make your point.

354 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:21:56pm

re: #327 Obdicut

Well, he's shifted it around a few times.

He said he'd show inaccuracies in the code. He also said this:

Right... I said I "have in mind." I decided to take a more inclusive tack and develop the essay so it was not so "code heavy" and more understandable to a wider audience.

There is a lot of talk about code. Every time Harris mentions the results of processing and creating some data, he is talking about program code that is producing that data, and he is frustrated that the legacy program code is full of problems.

There is a lot of talk about code in the essay, via Harris' comments.

355 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:22:00pm

re: #339 Varek Raith

Concur.

Clearly my reading comprehension is failing me.

Will somebody take pity upon this pour pathetic confused nieve liberal and explain to him where he's wrong?

356 brookly red  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:22:13pm

re: #335 brookly red

Center, as in directly between your cheeks.

OK, it's commie time... have fun everyone ! I got some things to take care of.

357 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:22:24pm

re: #338 Vambo

I don't see that. I draw my political beliefs from all over the place. Not just one ideology.

358 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:22:38pm

re: #344 jamesfirecat

"The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate."

It says it right there at the top one of the ways to change the constitution starts with a 2/3rds vote in both houses of "the Congress" like I said back in my original post.

So Mandy why did you say the Congress couldn't amend the Constitution?

Congress can only propose. The states are the ones that get the final vote.

359 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:22:51pm

re: #310 Vambo

What the fuck are you doing, dude? Using language like that is simply asking for a generalized fight. That accomplishes nothing.

360 jaunte  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:22:53pm

re: #355 jamesfirecat

The state legislatures do the voting.

361 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:22:56pm

re: #299 Obdicut

His claim that the net result is affected has fallen. His other claims are holding up just fine.

362 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:23:08pm

re: #355 jamesfirecat

Clearly my reading comprehension is failing me.

Will somebody take pity upon this pour pathetic confused nieve liberal and explain to him where he's wrong?

James.
See:

re: #331 reine.de.tout

Um, no. It can't.
State legislatures have to vote on these if 2/3 majority in each House approves the proposal.

363 Cheechako  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:23:08pm

Walter - thank you for your post. What I perceive you to be saying is the old programmer axiom "Garbage In = Garbage Out". A question I have is how many scientists used the uncorrected, pre 2006-2009 data in their research and never used (or heard about) the updated "corrected" data from 2009?

With so much at stake for the world I'd like to see this particular research to be re-done in an open and unbiased manner. That's the only way this issue can be put to rest.

364 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:23:14pm

I love the Olympics!
So there is this scandal on the blogs...
Here is where you can vote..
Are those shirts the Men wear in the Ice skating really just blouses?
I mean the chatter is what are the rules between a shirt or a Blouse?
It's like a Seinfeld episode...How should we vote lizards? Shirt or Blouse?

365 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:23:16pm

re: #348 Conservative Moonbat

I think Maddow does a fine job of political analysis, especially when she took the John Birch society to task.

366 webevintage  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:23:42pm

re: #351 TampaKnight

She's a good political analyst as a champion of the left.

and very, very polite.

367 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:23:45pm

re: #355 jamesfirecat

Clearly my reading comprehension is failing me.

Will somebody take pity upon this pour pathetic confused nieve liberal and explain to him where he's wrong?

re: #309 Varek Raith

To Propose Amendments

* Two-thirds of both houses of Congress vote to propose an amendment, or

* Two-thirds of the state legislatures ask Congress to call a national convention to propose amendments. (This method has never been used.)

To Ratify Amendments

* Three-fourths of the state legislatures approve it, or

* Ratifying conventions in three-fourths of the states approve it. This method has been used only once -- to ratify the 21st Amendment -- repealing Prohibition.

368 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:24:00pm

re: #355 jamesfirecat

Clearly my reading comprehension is failing me.

Will somebody take pity upon this pour pathetic confused nieve liberal and explain to him where he's wrong?

READ THE DAMN THING.

369 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:24:07pm

re: #354 Walter L. Newton

Please see my 352.

Do you dispute that the CRU data and the raw data agree to within 99% confidence?

370 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:24:11pm

re: #359 Obdicut

I think that he just lost his temper for a minute, the guy is a bit tightly wound >>


/irony alert!!!


//also like others don't say alot worse than calling someone 'a baffoon' on here all the time!

371 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:24:21pm

re: #348 Conservative Moonbat

I think that Matthews leans left, myself. That said, i don't really have a problem with him or Maddow, I'm just saying they're liberal. Avanti and iceweasel are also liberal and I don't have a problem with them. Its the way a person behaves that really decides how I regard them.

372 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:24:22pm

re: #364 HoosierHoops

I love the Olympics!
So there is this scandal on the blogs...
Here is where you can vote..
Are those shirts the Men wear in the Ice skating really just blouses?
I mean the chatter is what are the rules between a shirt or a Blouse?
It's like a Seinfeld episode...How should we vote lizards? Shirt or Blouse?

call me when Peekaboo makes her run

373 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:24:29pm

re: #310 Vambo

No need for insulting name calling. This thread has a shot at staying calm and cogent. Far more entertaining and informative that way.

374 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:24:37pm

re: #358 MandyManners

Congress can only propose. The states are the ones that get the final vote.

Okay gotcha.

This has been my down dinging learning moment of the day brought to me by the letters "S" for State and "L" for Legislature along with the number -1!

Can you tell me how to get... how to get to Ell F Geee?

375 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:24:45pm

re: #340 Vambo

OMG SO SORRY LIBRUL MEDIA ELITE etc etc.

Way to miss the point

Fox is conservative, and has conservative commentators. They also have several liberal ones that although don't have full time shows, are regular contributors (for "balance")
Thats ONE network. Please tell me what other networks lean right?

MEANWHILE ,,, MSNBC (Maddow ,,Matthews,,, Olberman) ABC (Stephanopoulous) CNN (similar to Fox whereas lost of left leaning with a few righties for "balance")

376 webevintage  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:25:06pm

re: #364 HoosierHoops

I love the Olympics!
So there is this scandal on the blogs...
Here is where you can vote..
Are those shirts the Men wear in the Ice skating really just blouses?
I mean the chatter is what are the rules between a shirt or a Blouse?
It's like a Seinfeld episode...How should we vote lizards? Shirt or Blouse?

Is it a puffy shirt/blouse?

377 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:25:28pm

re: #364 HoosierHoops

I love the Olympics!
So there is this scandal on the blogs...
Here is where you can vote..
Are those shirts the Men wear in the Ice skating really just blouses?
I mean the chatter is what are the rules between a shirt or a Blouse?
It's like a Seinfeld episode...How should we vote lizards? Shirt or Blouse?

If it's loose and flowing, it's a blouse.
More close-fitted - a shirt.
Just my .02

378 Racer X  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:25:29pm

re: #371 Dark_Falcon


Its the way a person behaves that really decides how I regard them.

Quite Concur.

379 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:25:31pm

re: #349 Dark_Falcon

There's no reason to be rude. Tell us what's on your mind instead casting stones at another.

380 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:25:54pm

re: #333 avanti

OK, assume for the sake of discussion, the pre 2006 data was corrupt, how bad was it, and how far off from the the rest of the data sets was it ?

This is an instance where "hard" scientists' passion for rigor works against them. Sociologists, anthropologists, and archaeologists are humble enough to recognize the limits of their data and publish best-guess answers.

381 TampaKnight  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:26:00pm

You all realize that Fox got popular because they filled the giant void in the media for any right-leaning news and perspective....right?

They wouldn't have been so received if the media was truly balanced like everyone claims it is.

382 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:26:04pm

re: #378 Racer X

Quite Concur.

Didn't know DF had so many socks...
/:P

383 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:26:11pm

re: #371 Dark_Falcon

I think that Matthews leans left, myself. That said, i don't really have a problem with him or Maddow, I'm just saying they're liberal. Avanti and iceweasel are also liberal and I don't have a problem with them. Its the way a person behaves that really decides how I regard them.

Hell, yeah, he leans left. Remember the "tingle" bit? And, remember he wrote speeches for Carter?

384 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:26:50pm

re: #374 jamesfirecat

Okay gotcha.

This has been my down dinging learning moment of the day brought to me by the letters "S" for State and "L" for Legislature along with the number -1!

Can you tell me how to get... how to get to Ell F Geee?

Someone dinged you for this?

385 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:27:04pm

re: #379 eclectic infidel

There's no reason to be rude. Tell us what's on your mind instead casting stones at another.

Sorry. I got kind of wound up there. Please forgive my lapse in civility.

386 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:27:42pm

re: #385 Dark_Falcon

Sorry. I got kind of wound up there. Please forgive my lapse in civility.

Heat sink wearing out?
/

387 cliffster  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:28:18pm

I'm off to go steal an election. see you loosers later

388 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:28:21pm

re: #384 MandyManners

Someone dinged you for this?

I don't think so, (haven't checked)

But I know I've got a habit of saying stupid things and getting down dinged for them and hopefully coming away microscopically more intelligent for my foolishness.

389 jaunte  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:28:24pm

On the topic of lunatics and wingnuts, reading part of Thoreau's Journal, I ran across this passage that reminded me of some of the political speechifying shows put on lately:

After lecturing twice this winter I feel that I am in danger of cheapening myself by trying to become a successful lecturer, i.e., to interest my audiences. I am disappointed to find that most that I am and value myself for is lost, or worse than lost, on my audience. I fail to get even the attention of the mass. I should suit them better if I suited myself less. I feel that the public demand an average man,—average thoughts and manners,—not originality, nor even absolute excellence. You cannot interest them except as you are like them and sympathize with them. I would rather that my audience come to me than that I should go to them, and so they be sifted; i.e., I would rather write books than lectures. That is fine, this coarse. To read to a promiscuous audience who are at your mercy the fine thoughts you solaced yourself with far away is as violent as to fatten geese by cramming, and in this case they do not get fatter.
390 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:28:27pm

re: #334 windsagio

I"m saying, simply, that they're not the conclusions you're claiming. They're a log for a work in progress. You still haven't shown convincingly that the problems he was trying to fix led to any incorrect data being published. Isn't that the claim?

It is a log for a LIVE LEGACY PROGRAM SUITE. Do you know what that implies? Harris sat down in 2006 and started to try to produce data that he was tasked to create, his biggest project was to create a new version of CRU TS 3.0 and he couldn't do it accurately. The programs were full of problems.

These are the same programs that produced CRU TS 1.0 and onward.

The CRU TS databases are a combination of data coming from a number of different sources... station temperature reading, cloud data, sun data, wet data... to name a few, and these different datasets are combined to make a world wide grid of temperature anomalies across the globe.

When he started to create a new version of CRU TS, he couldn't do it. He found mistake after mistake. And even after fixing the mistakes, and sent out the new CRU TS 3.0, it has problems.

Harris is a hero, CRU and their legacy data is pitiful.

391 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:29:03pm

re: #374 jamesfirecat

Since I was 17, I've had one copy or another of the U.S. Constitution on my desk. Do you have one? If not, please get one.

392 avanti  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:29:09pm

re: #385 Dark_Falcon

Sorry. I got kind of wound up there. Please forgive my lapse in civility.

It was out of character for you Dark, but so rare a occurrence that we should let it slide.

393 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:29:42pm

re: #388 jamesfirecat

I don't think so, (haven't checked)

But I know I've got a habit of saying stupid things and getting down dinged for them and hopefully coming away microscopically more intelligent for my foolishness.

Well, at least you're willing to learn!

394 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:29:44pm

re: #377 reine.de.tout

I was trying to find a good clip of

"Game, Blouses"

closest was this:

395 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:29:46pm

re: #369 Obdicut

Please see my 352.

Do you dispute that the CRU data and the raw data agree to within 99% confidence?

Now... 2010... not before 2006, read his narrative.

396 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:29:48pm

re: #391 MandyManners

Since I was 17, I've had one copy or another of the U.S. Constitution on my desk. Do you have one? If not, please get one.

Would also suggest he have a copy of the constitution of the State where he lives.
Most informative.

397 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:29:53pm

re: #390 Walter L. Newton

Harris is a hero, CRU and their legacy data is pitiful.

Walter:

Results are shown in the following figures. The key points: both Set A and Set B indicate warming with trends that are statistically identical between the CRU data and the raw data (>99% confidence); the histograms show that CRU quality control has, as expected, narrowed the variance (both extreme positive and negative values removed).

How is their data pitiful, if it matches the raw data so well?

398 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:30:01pm

re: #388 jamesfirecat

I don't think so, (haven't checked)

But I know I've got a habit of saying stupid things and getting down dinged for them and hopefully coming away microscopically more intelligent for my foolishness.

Heh, I stay several parsecs away from serious religious discussions for this reason alone...Well, except for the learning part.
;)

399 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:30:30pm

re: #394 windsagio

I was trying to find a good clip of

"Game, Blouses"

closest was this:

"the shirts against the blouses".
LOLOLOLOL!

400 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:30:32pm

re: #396 reine.de.tout

Would also suggest he have a copy of the constitution of the State where he lives.
Most informative.

Great idea.

401 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:30:53pm

re: #338 Vambo

center-left, definitely. I think some people here have a problem with anyone who tries to appeal to liberals, because it's not like we're Americans too or whatever.

Drive by here-- Vambo, some unasked for advice:
don't let yourself be baited, try to maintain calm, don't make sweeping statements about the right without qualifying them up the wazoo. Try not to namecall unless someone has called you a name, and generally only once for every three times that person does it to you.

There are still some doublestandards here; lefties don't get away with making sweeping statements about the right. Wingnuts (now) get called out (usually) for making sweeping statements about the left.

Don't listen to people who tell you to go away, either.
And generally, remember that there is still a bias (as there is in all web communities) where newer posters are held to different standards than older ones.
Finally-- most folk here are pretty great people. We can disagree totally on some political issues then find out we agree on others, and that's pretty cool.
/random iceweasel stream of consciousness, no offense intended to any.

402 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:31:01pm

And, a copy of The Federalist Papers.

403 pharmmajor  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:31:04pm

I have definitely got to get a copy of this book.

404 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:31:18pm

re: #386 Varek Raith

Heat sink wearing out?
/

Maybe. It's not venting the heat from my right arm ER PPC like it should. I'll have the techs take a look at it.

/Battletech geekage

405 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:31:19pm

re: #398 Varek Raith

Heh, I stay several parsecs away from serious religious discussions for this reason alone...Well, except for the learning part.
;)

It's almost like being in college, the stuff you can learn here.
There are times I know my best bet is to keep quiet and just read.

406 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:31:22pm

re: #381 TampaKnight

You all realize that Fox got popular because they filled the giant void in the media for any right-leaning news and perspective...right?

They wouldn't have been so received if the media was truly balanced like everyone claims it is.

Fox got popular because it was perceived that there was a liberal bias in the media, something conservative politicians always used as an excuse for poor public reception and/or lack of popularity in the 1990s. It appeals to wingnuts because they are not interested in a different perspective, only one that nurtures their existing opinions and prejudices.

407 Unakite  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:31:46pm

re: #200 WindUpBird

Work is not the same thing as expertise.

One gains expertise by hard work.

408 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:31:55pm

re: #390 Walter L. Newton

I understand that, but I just don't see where the problems he found came out.

What about Obdi's 352? That would imply that whatever he found was fixed well before any results were published.

Everything else aside, it was an interesting read, but far short of proving CRU 3.0 wrong.

409 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:32:21pm

re: #401 iceweasel

Drive by here-- Vambo, some unasked for advice:
don't let yourself be baited, try to maintain calm, don't make sweeping statements about the right without qualifying them up the wazoo. Try not to namecall unless someone has called you a name, and generally only once for every three times that person does it to you.

There are still some doublestandards here; lefties don't get away with making sweeping statements about the right. Wingnuts (now) get called out (usually) for making sweeping statements about the left.

Don't listen to people who tell you to go away, either.
And generally, remember that there is still a bias (as there is in all web communities) where newer posters are held to different standards than older ones.
Finally-- most folk here are pretty great people. We can disagree totally on some political issues then find out we agree on others, and that's pretty cool.
/random iceweasel stream of consciousness, no offense intended to any.

thanks. :):):):)

410 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:32:28pm

re: #385 Dark_Falcon

Sorry. I got kind of wound up there. Please forgive my lapse in civility.

It's all good. Let me pour you a whiskey & water.

411 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:32:45pm

re: #384 MandyManners

Someone dinged you for this?

Give the kid room to withdraw.

412 TampaKnight  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:32:51pm

re: #406 Vambo

Fox got popular because it was perceived that there was a liberal bias in the media, something conservative politicians always used as an excuse for poor public reception and/or lack of popularity in the 1990s. It appeals to wingnuts because they are not interested in a different perspective, only one that nurtures their existing opinions and prejudices.

That's quite the simpleton response.

413 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:32:53pm

re: #391 MandyManners

Since I was 17, I've had one copy or another of the U.S. Constitution on my desk. Do you have one? If not, please get one.

re: #396 reine.de.tout

Would also suggest he have a copy of the constitution of the State where he lives.
Most informative.

I keep one of each on my desk ,,,,, each on the side of this years Sports Illustrated SwimSuit issue!!!

414 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:32:57pm

re: #397 Obdicut

How is their data pitiful, if it matches the raw data so well?

You comment does not tell me anything about what data you are talking about. When (year), what dataset are you talking about (CRU TS Version X.X, Hadcrut3, what dataset) they have produced many, since the 1990's.

I can't answer you question with out some particulars.

415 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:32:59pm

re: #401 iceweasel

Drive by here-- Vambo, some unasked for advice:
don't let yourself be baited, try to maintain calm, don't make sweeping statements about the right without qualifying them up the wazoo. Try not to namecall unless someone has called you a name, and generally only once for every three times that person does it to you.

There are still some doublestandards here; lefties don't get away with making sweeping statements about the right. Wingnuts (now) get called out (usually) for making sweeping statements about the left.

Don't listen to people who tell you to go away, either.
And generally, remember that there is still a bias (as there is in all web communities) where newer posters are held to different standards than older ones.
Finally-- most folk here are pretty great people. We can disagree totally on some political issues then find out we agree on others, and that's pretty cool.
/random iceweasel stream of consciousness, no offense intended to any.

Thank you for that, ice.

416 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:33:03pm

re: #409 Vambo

thanks. :):):):)

Anytime! Been where you are. :)

417 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:33:39pm

re: #412 TampaKnight

That's quite the simpleton response.

That's quite the unsubstantial response.

418 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:34:01pm

re: #412 TampaKnight

seems that claiming bias is substantially simpler >>

419 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:34:19pm

re: #393 MandyManners

Well, at least you're willing to learn!

Yeah.

I've learned the history of how (AND WHY) Israel was founded.

I've learned some interesting stuff on the weaknesses of Keynesian economic.

And I've learned that when you're trying to point out a flaw in the inherent logic of the person you're arguing with, make sure the example of what bad things it could lead to is overblown and farcical enough that no one could get offended.

420 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:34:46pm

re: #414 Walter L. Newton

Walter, please read the damn article that actually did the analysis of what CRU produced vs the raw data.

It is an analysis of the data from 1850 to 2000, analyzing CRUTEM3v. The methodology is explained.

[Link: www.realclimate.org...]

421 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:35:16pm

re: #410 eclectic infidel

It's all good. Let me pour you a whiskey & water.

Thanks but no thanks. I'll stick with wine, I don't touch the hard stuff. But I've got the Roast Troll ready so feel free to big. Soda and beer are in the cooler, help yourself.

422 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:35:21pm

re: #411 Decatur Deb

Give the kid room to withdraw.

In bed.

423 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:35:30pm

re: #419 jamesfirecat

Yeah.

I've learned the history of how (AND WHY) Israel was founded.

I've learned some interesting stuff on the weaknesses of Keynesian economic.

And I've learned that when you're trying to point out a flaw in the inherent logic of the person you're arguing with, make sure the example of what bad things it could lead to is overblown and farcical enough that no one could get offended.

I'm surprised at some of the gaps in your knowledge.
But quite impressed that you are here regularly and trying to get a handle on things.

424 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:35:43pm

re: #408 windsagio

I understand that, but I just don't see where the problems he found came out.

What about Obdi's 352? That would imply that whatever he found was fixed well before any results were published.

Everything else aside, it was an interesting read, but far short of proving CRU 3.0 wrong.

I don't have to prove anything. Harris clearly makes the statements that the master database, the one that he was handed to work with from 2006 onward was faulty...

“So.. should I really go to town (again) and allow the Master database to be 'fixed' by this program? Quite honestly I don't have time - but it just shows the state our data holdings have drifted into. Who added those two series together? When? Why? Untraceable, except anecdotally. It's the same story for many other Russian stations, unfortunately - meaning that (probably) there was a full Russian update that did no data integrity checking at all. I just hope it's restricted to Russia!!”

425 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:35:45pm

re: #406 Vambo

It appeals to wingnuts because they are not interested in a different perspective, only one that nurtures their existing opinions and prejudices.

It doesn't get the ratings it gets because it "appeals to wingnuts"

If that were the case, Air America (which appealed to the Moonbats) would be alive, well and thriving today

426 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:35:49pm

re: #375 sattv4u2

Way to miss the point

Fox is conservative, and has conservative commentators. They also have several liberal ones that although don't have full time shows, are regular contributors (for "balance")
Thats ONE network. Please tell me what other networks lean right?

Wolf Blitzer leans right and he's the face of CNN

427 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:35:52pm

Red vs Blue - PSA: The Winter Lames

428 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:35:56pm

re: #413 sattv4u2

I keep one of each on my desk ,,, each on the side of this years Sports Illustrated SwimSuit issue!!!

Oh, that's sweet.

429 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:36:39pm

re: #419 jamesfirecat

man I dunno about that last bit, the examples I tend to think of would immediately annihilate any discussion in the thread for the simple reason of their overblownness.

(example, and please everyone don't hurt me too bad: I almost called someone a Sonderkommando once before I realized how stupid, offensive, and suicidal that was)

430 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:36:44pm

And now-- time for Valentine's day at Hotel Biron.

Have a good night, all.

And again, walter:

[Link: www.realclimate.org...]

Read it.

431 TampaKnight  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:36:50pm

May I just say that commercials featuring shelter and abused dogs tears me up.

432 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:37:02pm

re: #425 sattv4u2

It appeals to wingnuts because they are not interested in a different perspective, only one that nurtures their existing opinions and prejudices.

It doesn't get the ratings it gets because it "appeals to wingnuts"

If that were the case, Air America (which appealed to the Moonbats) would be alive, well and thriving today

Nah. I'm a super-lefty by standards here, and Air America sucked even as entertainment. I used to love rightwing talk radio though!

433 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:37:17pm

re: #419 jamesfirecat

Yeah.

I've learned the history of how (AND WHY) Israel was founded.

I've learned some interesting stuff on the weaknesses of Keynesian economic.

And I've learned that when you're trying to point out a flaw in the inherent logic of the person you're arguing with, make sure the example of what bad things it could lead to is overblown and farcical enough that no one could get offended.

*noogie*

434 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:37:50pm

re: #425 sattv4u2

It appeals to wingnuts because they are not interested in a different perspective, only one that nurtures their existing opinions and prejudices.

It doesn't get the ratings it gets because it "appeals to wingnuts"

If that were the case, Air America (which appealed to the Moonbats) would be alive, well and thriving today

Unless.... GASP there aren't enough moonbats in this country to support such a thing!

Not trying to say that there are fewer Moonbats than Wingnuts but that does seem like a conlsuion you could reach from the point of data you presented....

435 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:38:11pm

re: #432 iceweasel

Nah. I'm a super-lefty by standards here, and Air America sucked even as entertainment. I used to love rightwing talk radio though!

Ya gotta try the xelA senoJ shows - online, pdcast, so you can take the crazy with you on your iPod.
Now THAT's entertaintment.

436 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:38:22pm

re: #424 Walter L. Newton

at best you're proving what Harris said. Read obdicut's arguments. I'll stay out from between you 2, because at this point I'd just be echoing what he has to say, 'cuz he's saying it better than I could.

437 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:38:30pm

re: #429 windsagio

man I dunno about that last bit, the examples I tend to think of would immediately annihilate any discussion in the thread for the simple reason of their overblownness.

(example, and please everyone don't hurt me too bad: I almost called someone a Sonderkommando once before I realized how stupid, offensive, and suicidal that was)

Well I meant "overblown" in the case of like something out of a bad sci-fi movie.

438 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:39:19pm

re: #437 jamesfirecat

Well I meant "overblown" in the case of like something out of a bad sci-fi movie.

There are NO bad sci-fi flicks. Even the worst of them are pure jewels.

439 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:39:32pm

re: #437 jamesfirecat

Ohhh yeah. Obviously silly is a good way to go.

If you can tie it in to Star Trek or D&D, you're golden!

440 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:39:35pm

re: #427 Varek Raith

Red vs Blue - PSA: The Winter Lames

[Video]

That's nothing. The Stalker blog is staging its own Trollympics. A sampling of the events:

The downhill blog run.

The broad ski jump to conclusion.

Figure skating around the truth.

Feel free to add events.

441 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:39:44pm

re: #425 sattv4u2

It appeals to wingnuts because they are not interested in a different perspective, only one that nurtures their existing opinions and prejudices.

It doesn't get the ratings it gets because it "appeals to wingnuts"

If that were the case, Air America (which appealed to the Moonbats) would be alive, well and thriving today

Makes you wonder how many moonbats are really out there. Anyone know how many bodies in Code Pink?

442 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:39:50pm

re: #381 TampaKnight

You all realize that Fox got popular because they filled the giant void in the media for any right-leaning news and perspective...right?

They wouldn't have been so received if the media was truly balanced like everyone claims it is.

Change that to far-right and I'll buy it.

No advertising supported news media can take an anti-corporatist news bias because they wouldn't get any advertisers. That makes true left news reporting impossible outside NPR and PBS and they feel the need to moderate themselves. There's Bill Moyers and that's about it.

443 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:39:54pm

re: #434 jamesfirecat

Unless... GASP there aren't enough moonbats in this country to support such a thing!

Not trying to say that there are fewer Moonbats than Wingnuts but that does seem like a conlsuion you could reach from the point of data you presented...

Satt was not arguing that Fox appeals only to Wingnuts. He was arguing that it appeals to people other than Wingnuts. AirAmerica, however, appealed to Moonbats.

444 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:40:32pm

re: #441 Decatur Deb

Makes you wonder how many moonbats are really out there. Anyone know how many bodies in Code Pink?

Few, very few. I'd bet fewer than 100 active members.

445 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:40:56pm

re: #435 Guanxi88

Ya gotta try the xelA senoJ shows - online, pdcast, so you can take the crazy with you on your iPod.
Now THAT's entertaintment.

Might do that sometime. The few Alex Jones clips I've seen have been hi-lair-ious.

h/t Archangel Michael for the one where mancow talks about shapeshifters and his dreams being controlled, etc.

446 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:40:58pm

re: #443 MandyManners

Satt was not arguing that Fox appeals only to Wingnuts. He was arguing that it appeals to people other than Wingnuts. AirAmerica, however, appealed to nobody.

You had a slight typo there, what I fixed is bolded :)


AA was terrible, start to finish.

447 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:41:02pm

re: #383 MandyManners

Hell, yeah, he leans left. Remember the "tingle" bit? And, remember he wrote speeches for Carter?

He had a man crush on Bush for years though. He loved the flight suit "mission accomplished" carrier landing performance.

448 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:41:18pm

re: #434 jamesfirecat

Unless... GASP there aren't enough moonbats in this country to support such a thing!

Not trying to say that there are fewer Moonbats than Wingnuts but that does seem like a conlsuion you could reach from the point of data you presented...

Too bad Missing The Point wasn't an Olympic Sport!!!!

/// (I kid, kid!)

449 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:41:35pm

re: #441 Decatur Deb

Makes you wonder how many moonbats are really out there. Anyone know how many bodies in Code Pink?

Very very few.

And in my real life, I know a few (but just a few) non-Code Pink moonbats.
But not many.

450 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:41:56pm

re: #447 Conservative Moonbat

I think of him as being among the ranks of 'mind broken by 9/11'. Eventually he got back to his normal self.

451 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:42:15pm

re: #420 Obdicut

Walter, please read the damn article that actually did the analysis of what CRU produced vs the raw data.

It is an analysis of the data from 1850 to 2000, analyzing CRUTEM3v. The methodology is explained.

[Link: www.realclimate.org...]

This statement is misleading "There is no indication whatsoever of any problem with the CRU data."

CRU produces a whole suite of data bases. CRUTEM is one of many. My discussion was in regards to CRU TS 3.0 which Harris was tasked with to create a new version by Dec. 2009.

Except for the fact that the CRU Time Slice data base feed some data to CRUTEM, it's not the same data base.

I have not done any research on CRUTEM.

See my essay above.

How about we talk about the project that Ian was working on, the project that is the body of my essay.

You are deflecting to another subject.

452 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:42:23pm

re: #425 sattv4u2

It appeals to wingnuts because they are not interested in a different perspective, only one that nurtures their existing opinions and prejudices.

It doesn't get the ratings it gets because it "appeals to wingnuts"

If that were the case, Air America (which appealed to the Moonbats) would be alive, well and thriving today

Because Air America had the accessibility as Fox News? I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but you probably ignored it. In some areas Fox News is available to people without cable. I worked in a factory where Fox News was playing 24/7 on a cafeteria TV. I can't even find Air America on kitchen radio.

I guess it doesn't matter though, some people just look at the numbers and ignore everything else. And anyway, if it's popular, it must be right.

453 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:42:45pm

re: #447 Conservative Moonbat

He had a man crush on Bush for years though. He loved the flight suit "mission accomplished" carrier landing performance.

Well, that paints Matthews in a slightly unusual light. But, I stand by my contention that he is a Lefty.

454 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:42:55pm

re: #436 windsagio

See my re: #451 Walter L. Newton to Obdicut.

455 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:42:56pm

re: #445 iceweasel

Might do that sometime. The few Alex Jones clips I've seen have been hi-lair-ious.

h/t Archangel Michael for the one where mancow talks about shapeshifters and his dreams being controlled, etc.

Mancow Mueller: The man who put out a theory so out there that Alex Jones understood it was Bad Craziness.

456 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:43:34pm

re: #447 Conservative Moonbat

He had a man crush on Bush for years though. He loved the flight suit "mission accomplished" carrier landing performance.

Yep. Here's a sampling of Chris Matthews' embarassing man crush on Bush:

# Chris ♥ George, Part 1: Bush sometimes "glimmers" with "sunny nobility." On MSNBC's Hardball, during a discussion with Washington Times editorial page editor Tony Blankley of the effects on President Bush and his administration of the investigation into the leak of the name of CIA operative Valerie Plame, Matthews said "[S]ometimes it glimmers with this man, our president, that kind of sunny nobility." [Hardball, 10/24/05]

# Chris ♥ George, Part 2: "Everybody sort of likes the president, except for the real whack-jobs ..." Insulting the majority of Americans who hold an unfavorable opinion of President Bush, Matthews exclaimed on Hardball: "Everybody sort of likes the president, except for the real whack-jobs, maybe on the left," adding, "I mean, like him personally." [Hardball, 11/28/05]

# Chris ♥ George, Part 3: Matthews praised Bush speech as "brilliant" even before it was delivered. Before Bush had even delivered his November 30 speech at the U.S. Naval Academy, Matthews used variations of the word "brilliant" twice to describe it, while deriding Democratic critics of the Iraq war as "carpers and complainers." [MSNBC live coverage, 11/30/05]

# Chris ♥ George, Part 4: Bush "belongs on Mount Rushmore." Recounting his experience at a White House party, Matthews said that he "felt sensitive" during his interactions with the president, adding: "You get your picture taken with him. It's like Santa Claus, and he's always very generous and friendly." He continued: "I felt like I was too towel-snappy with him," explaining that Bush had noted his "red scarf" and remarked that he looked "preppy." During the same show, Matthews stated: "If [Bush's] gamble that he can create a democracy in the middle of the Arab world" is successful, "he belongs on Mount Rushmore." [Hardball, 12/16/05]

I feel too ill to continue. More at link.

457 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:43:55pm

re: #391 MandyManners

Since I was 17, I've had one copy or another of the U.S. Constitution on my desk. Do you have one? If not, please get one.

I've had a pic of Ben Franklin near my desk since I was in my teens.

458 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:44:02pm

re: #442 Conservative Moonbat

Change that to far-right and I'll buy it.

No advertising supported news media can take an anti-corporatist news bias because they wouldn't get any advertisers. That makes true left news reporting impossible outside NPR and PBS and they feel the need to moderate themselves. There's Bill Moyers and that's about it.

They can survive (poorly) in very tight demographics, like Pacifica Radio. Much of their money might be from lefty angels.

459 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:44:22pm

re: #452 Vambo

Because Air America had the accessibility as Fox News? I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but you probably ignored it. In some areas Fox News is available to people without cable. I worked in a factory where Fox News was playing 24/7 on a cafeteria TV. I can't even find Air America on kitchen radio.

I guess it doesn't matter though, some people just look at the numbers and ignore everything else. And anyway, if it's popular, it must be right.

We had Air America here in Austin for a while. It bought out entire blocks on what had been a Spanish-langauge AM station playing conjunto and "classicos populares".

Turns out, conjunto and classicos populares were more popular than Randi Rhodes.

Now, if it can't make a go of it in Austin, it ain't gonna make it anywhere in Texas.

460 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:44:34pm

oohh...looks like a book i can enjoy without disounting the bias of the auther....guess i'll find out once i read it.

461 TampaKnight  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:44:37pm

re: #452 Vambo

Because Air America had the accessibility as Fox News? I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but you probably ignored it. In some areas Fox News is available to people without cable. I worked in a factory where Fox News was playing 24/7 on a cafeteria TV. I can't even find Air America on kitchen radio.

I guess it doesn't matter though, some people just look at the numbers and ignore everything else. And anyway, if it's popular, it must be right.

That's because Air America failed, and failed miserably. How hard is that to understand? If there was a market, and a quality product, it would be more available. I've seen conservative radio talk shows start from nothing and get at least regional syndication.

And don't act like Air America was attempting some grand highly intellectual programming to conter the "evil" conservatives- they were running the same platforms and same styles, but they failed and had no market.

462 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:44:51pm

it appears I have offended the resident Fox News Fangirl.

c'mon Mandy, it's not 1999 anymore.

463 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:45:15pm

re: #454 Walter L. Newton

hmm, is obdi actually gone? I don't wanna step in if he's still here >

if not, in a little bit I'll give my own answer.

464 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:45:45pm

re: #301 windsagio

Walter put a huge amount of time and energy into working on this.
I haven't see YOU make any kind of effort on this scale.
You might want to re-think the snarkiness?

Walter has invested a LOT of time & energy into this.
I don't see any time or energy invested on your part.

465 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:46:38pm

re: #426 Conservative Moonbat

Wolf Blitzer leans right and he's the face of CNN

Wolf may (or may not) "lean right", but I work with people at CNN every day and I can tell you that there are still a LOT of Ted Turner people there,,,,, writers , editors , producers , directors ,,management ,,

466 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:46:53pm

re: #456 iceweasel

Yep. Here's a sampling of Chris Matthews' embarassing man crush on Bush:

# Chris ♥ George, Part 1: Bush sometimes "glimmers" with "sunny nobility." On MSNBC's Hardball, during a discussion with Washington Times editorial page editor Tony Blankley of the effects on President Bush and his administration of the investigation into the leak of the name of CIA operative Valerie Plame, Matthews said "[S]ometimes it glimmers with this man, our president, that kind of sunny nobility." [Hardball, 10/24/05]

# Chris ♥ George, Part 2: "Everybody sort of likes the president, except for the real whack-jobs ..." Insulting the majority of Americans who hold an unfavorable opinion of President Bush, Matthews exclaimed on Hardball: "Everybody sort of likes the president, except for the real whack-jobs, maybe on the left," adding, "I mean, like him personally." [Hardball, 11/28/05]

# Chris ♥ George, Part 3: Matthews praised Bush speech as "brilliant" even before it was delivered. Before Bush had even delivered his November 30 speech at the U.S. Naval Academy, Matthews used variations of the word "brilliant" twice to describe it, while deriding Democratic critics of the Iraq war as "carpers and complainers." [MSNBC live coverage, 11/30/05]

# Chris ♥ George, Part 4: Bush "belongs on Mount Rushmore." Recounting his experience at a White House party, Matthews said that he "felt sensitive" during his interactions with the president, adding: "You get your picture taken with him. It's like Santa Claus, and he's always very generous and friendly." He continued: "I felt like I was too towel-snappy with him," explaining that Bush had noted his "red scarf" and remarked that he looked "preppy." During the same show, Matthews stated: "If [Bush's] gamble that he can create a democracy in the middle of the Arab world" is successful, "he belongs on Mount Rushmore." [Hardball, 12/16/05]

I feel too ill to continue. More at link.

I'm sorry I couldn't go beyond "glimmers with sunny nobility"

What is he a vampire out of Twilight?

467 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:46:59pm

re: #401 iceweasel

Drive by here-- Vambo, some unasked for advice:
don't let yourself be baited, try to maintain calm, don't make sweeping statements about the right without qualifying them up the wazoo. Try not to namecall unless someone has called you a name, and generally only once for every three times that person does it to you.

There are still some doublestandards here; lefties don't get away with making sweeping statements about the right. Wingnuts (now) get called out (usually) for making sweeping statements about the left.

Don't listen to people who tell you to go away, either.
And generally, remember that there is still a bias (as there is in all web communities) where newer posters are held to different standards than older ones.
Finally-- most folk here are pretty great people. We can disagree totally on some political issues then find out we agree on others, and that's pretty cool.
/random iceweasel stream of consciousness, no offense intended to any.

To put that in fewer words, since this was originally a conservative blog I still feel and act like I'm a guest in someone else's house. I have reached the point of changing the station on the TV without asking though.

468 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:47:09pm

re: #464 Floral Giraffe

Sigh, I shouldn't go back to it, but I will. The amount of effort he put in doesn't have any bearing on his results, not really.

Gene Ray put a LOT of time and energy into Time Cube as well, but that doesn't make it less crazy.

469 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:47:14pm

re: #444 Guanxi88

Few, very few. I'd bet fewer than 100 active members.

Even if they had 1000 active members, the median age is not 30. At the anti-Israel protests I've countered, usually about 1 dozen pink ladies show up. Most appear to be in their 50s and up. Give another ten years and that organization is going to be in dire straights with respect to membership.

470 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:47:25pm

re: #310 Vambo

It's comments like these that make it easy for me to understand why partisan buffoons like you hate Obama - hint: he is a center president.

He is a centrist president. He's extending many of Bush's policies, which magically are no longer cricket the instant a Democratic president is employing them. See: hypocritical bullshit from Republicans in congress about trying terrorists as civilians. Fine when Bush does it! OH GOD PANIC THE REPUBLIC IS DOOMED when Obama does it. Anyone who doesn't think he's a centrist president should probably take a look at the rest of the world, and what they consider to be a "left wing" party. Conservative parties in other parts of the world are what we'd call democrats here.

But the tribalism and the know-nothings and the blind partisans and the root root root for our fat racist blithering talk show host and the guys who treat politics like there's just two end zones and a 50 yard line, they just roll on and on and on and on...

471 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:47:30pm

re: #464 Floral Giraffe

Walter put a huge amount of time and energy into working on this.
I haven't see YOU make any kind of effort on this scale.
You might want to re-think the snarkiness?

Walter has invested a LOT of time & energy into this.
I don't see any time or energy invested on your part.

riding the shirt tails of others, bitching about something they themselves can not do....pathetic

472 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:48:01pm

re: #468 windsagio

You aren't seriously comparing Walter's essay to...TimeCube, are you???
???

473 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:48:05pm

re: #468 windsagio

Sigh, I shouldn't go back to it, but I will. The amount of effort he put in doesn't have any bearing on his results, not really.

Gene Ray put a LOT of time and energy into Time Cube as well, but that doesn't make it less crazy.

So now I am crazy. Thank you for that. I don't know why you have to go there.

474 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:48:17pm

re: #461 TampaKnight

That's because Air America failed, and failed miserably. How hard is that to understand? If there was a market, and a quality product, it would be more available. I've seen conservative radio talk shows start from nothing and get at least regional syndication.

Britney Spears music is highly available, while RL Burnside was highly obscure.

How hard is it to understand that what is popular is not always a "quality product"?

And don't act like Air America was attempting some grand highly intellectual programming to conter the "evil" conservatives- they were running the same platforms and same styles, but they failed and had no market.

I've never heard Air America, why would I say that.

475 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:48:22pm

re: #456 iceweasel

I was one of those wackjobs! :D me and all my kaaaraaazy education and opinions!

476 prairiefire  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:48:31pm

re: #425 sattv4u2

Air America was too ernest and boring as hell. Much like Amy, God love her, Goodman.

477 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:48:55pm

re: #464 Floral Giraffe

Walter put a huge amount of time and energy into working on this.
I haven't see YOU make any kind of effort on this scale.
You might want to re-think the snarkiness?

Walter has invested a LOT of time & energy into this.
I don't see any time or energy invested on your part.

Is effort more important than facts?

478 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:49:09pm

re: #469 eclectic infidel

Even if they had 1000 active members, the median age is not 30. At the anti-Israel protests I've countered, usually about 1 dozen pink ladies show up. Most appear to be in their 50s and up. Give another ten years and that organization is going to be in dire straights with respect to membership.

Well, I never thought of them as anything other or more than a sort of Westboro Baptist Church of the anti-war movement. I had - and continue to have - a bit of fun at their expense, but that's about the extent of it.

I'd imagine it's not too awfully difficult to get together a group of up to 1000 people for any cause, no matter how crazed or transparently goofy.

479 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:50:03pm

re: #406 Vambo

Fox got popular because it was perceived that there was a liberal bias in the media, something conservative politicians always used as an excuse for poor public reception and/or lack of popularity in the 1990s. It appeals to wingnuts because they are not interested in a different perspective, only one that nurtures their existing opinions and prejudices.

They built on a market created by talk radio.

480 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:50:14pm

re: #472 Varek Raith

re: #473 Walter L. Newton

If you had a fun way to reference Time Cube, wouldn't you?


Don't read too much into that, it wasn't intended, and I apologize that it came off that way (with hindsight I can see how it did)

My point to FG was "Effort doesn't automatically make you correct". I put in Time Cube because its classic internet funny, not as a dig at Walter.

481 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:50:16pm

re: #476 prairiefire

Air America was too ernest and boring as hell. Much like Amy, God love her, Goodman.

Amy Goodman, drier than dry toast. The good liberal shows like Stephanie Miller do just fine, the bad ones fell by the wayside. Like Al Franken's show. I know everyone he has a giant hate-on for Al Franken, but the guy is smart as a whip. he's an AWFUL broadcaster though, his show was unlistenable.

482 Racer X  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:50:23pm

re: #468 windsagio

You still, and really now, owe Walter an apology.

483 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:50:36pm

re: #476 prairiefire

Air America was too ernest and boring as hell. Much like Amy, God love her, Goodman.

You get the feeling, at least with her, that she's about the last person you'd want to have a drink with. Gimme a brawling, loud, fun-loving guy (or gal) and, politics aside, i can at least listen to him or her, provided he or she is bright.

484 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:50:37pm

re: #466 jamesfirecat

I'm sorry I couldn't go beyond "glimmers with sunny nobility"

What is he a vampire out of Twilight?

ha! Yeah, that bit does me in as well.

Really, Matthews is just a gasbag. Every once in a while he does something decent but he's really just a Beltway Villager, concerned with retaining his access to the cocktail party circuit, clueless, lazy and repeating whatever the meme of the day is for the Village.

Love the Twilight ref!

485 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:51:03pm

re: #452 Vambo

Because Air America had the accessibility as Fox News? I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but you probably ignored it. In some areas Fox News is available to people without cable. I worked in a factory where Fox News was playing 24/7 on a cafeteria TV. I can't even find Air America on kitchen radio.

I guess it doesn't matter though, some people just look at the numbers and ignore everything else. And anyway, if it's popular, it must be right.


Fox didn't start out at the top. It had finances, but I;ll show you hundreds of ventures both in and out of media that had "finances" at the beginning and failed


And see 465 re Blitzeer and CNN,, and talk abou MONEY , Turner was on the verge of buying CBS at one point

486 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:51:25pm

re: #482 Racer X

I apologzied for 468, the other thing, lets just agree that I'll go back to holding my peace on the subject. I shouldn't apologize if I believe I"m right.

487 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:51:27pm

re: #475 WindUpBird

I was one of those wackjobs! :D me and all my kaaaraaazy education and opinions!

Another wackjob here! *waves*

488 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:51:29pm

re: #470 WindUpBird

He is a centrist president. He's extending many of Bush's policies, which magically are no longer cricket the instant a Democratic president is employing them. See: hypocritical bullshit from Republicans in congress about trying terrorists as civilians. Fine when Bush does it! OH GOD PANIC THE REPUBLIC IS DOOMED when Obama does it. Anyone who doesn't think he's a centrist president should probably take a look at the rest of the world, and what they consider to be a "left wing" party. Conservative parties in other parts of the world are what we'd call democrats here.

But the tribalism and the know-nothings and the blind partisans and the root root root for our fat racist blithering talk show host and the guys who treat politics like there's just two end zones and a 50 yard line, they just roll on and on and on and on...

BO is centrist where he has no political option, otherwise he's hard core left....he's learning as he goes with regard to Bush's policies....his campaign said otherwise with regard to Gitmo, investigations into waterboarding etc...he stands for nothing, but just blows whatever way is politically profitable...if he re-runs you will hear the same pandering all over again

489 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:51:34pm

re: #484 iceweasel

ha! Yeah, that bit does me in as well.

Really, Matthews is just a gasbag. Every once in a while he does something decent but he's really just a Beltway Villager, concerned with retaining his access to the cocktail party circuit, clueless, lazy and repeating whatever the meme of the day is for the Village.

Love the Twilight ref!

Gah, Twilight did a huge freaking disservice to my people...
:(

490 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:51:52pm

re: #481 WindUpBird

Amy Goodman, drier than dry toast. The good liberal shows like Stephanie Miller do just fine, the bad ones fell by the wayside. Like Al Franken's show. I know everyone he has a giant hate-on for Al Franken, but the guy is smart as a whip. he's an AWFUL broadcaster though, his show was unlistenable.

Now, this Righty used to listen to Stephanie Miller when I lived in Beantown. She was a funny lady, she had a good show, politics aside.

491 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:52:11pm

re: #480 windsagio

re: #473 Walter L. Newton

If you had a fun way to reference Time Cube, wouldn't you?

Don't read too much into that, it wasn't intended, and I apologize that it came off that way (with hindsight I can see how it did)

My point to FG was "Effort doesn't automatically make you correct". I put in Time Cube because its classic internet funny, not as a dig at Walter.


If effort made you correct, imagine the stunningly weird flying machines we would have made!

"This is a gigantic canvas corkscrew flying apparatus with spider-legs that I made, and it floats through the air, with a mustachioed man in a dapper suit powering it with a penny-farthing we have defly attached to its drivetrain."

492 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:52:21pm

re: #488 albusteve

Thats totally why he's pushing for Health Care reform... because its the politically smart thing to do :p

493 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:52:41pm

re: #477 WindUpBird

Is effort more important than facts?

The facts are stated in that essay, but Ian Harris. I don't know what can be more clear.

And if you search around the internet, you will not find any challenge to the fact that the harry_read_me documents is not totally authentic.

So, you have the notes of the man who was tasked with creating CRU TS 3.0, the notes that indicated that the legacy programs that were used to create the former versions of that data base were flawed and you deny that what he has recounted in his notes are not facts.

Ian Harris still works for CRU. He has not denied anything, no one has. It's fact. Plain and simple.

494 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:53:05pm

re: #490 Guanxi88

+ for Steph!


Only political radio show I can listen to at freaking all.

495 sattv4u2  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:53:10pm

BBL

Walter ,,, good job

Charles ,,, thanks for letting him

496 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:53:16pm

re: #481 WindUpBird

Amy Goodman, drier than dry toast. The good liberal shows like Stephanie Miller do just fine, the bad ones fell by the wayside. Like Al Franken's show. I know everyone he has a giant hate-on for Al Franken, but the guy is smart as a whip. he's an AWFUL broadcaster though, his show was unlistenable.

Amy's great, she is quite boring though if you're not interested in her opinion.

That's really the difference, Fox News is all showmanship. If entertainment is more important to people than news when they are watching... uh, NEWS... we're in a pretty sad state.

497 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:53:31pm

re: #468 windsagio

GAZE

498 jaunte  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:53:45pm

NPR reported on this 'who's the moonbat, who's the wingnut' European economy story this evening. The Germans recently upped their retirement age to 67, and are not happy about bailing out Greek banks, while the Greeks are unhappy about possibly raising their retirement age to 63.
Greek drama fails to stir bruised Germans

Why are Germans so reluctant to assist? After all, Germany embraced the European project, the whole idea of a European Union. Whatever happened to solidarity? What is wrong with bailing out a fellow member state in need?

From the point of view of the German public, everything.

First, it is a question of principle. Germans are generally frugal, they are used to living within their means. Many here ask: Why should they have to bail out a country like Greece, which has been so profligate and racked up massive debt?


Greek unions strike against austerity plan

...traffic controllers, customs and tax officials, hospital doctors and schoolteachers walked off the job for 24 hours to protest sweeping government spending cuts that will freeze salaries and new hiring, cut bonuses and stipends and increase the average retirement age by two years to 63.
499 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:53:57pm

re: #478 Guanxi88

Well, I never thought of them as anything other or more than a sort of Westboro Baptist Church of the anti-war movement. I had - and continue to have - a bit of fun at their expense, but that's about the extent of it.

I'd imagine it's not too awfully difficult to get together a group of up to 1000 people for any cause, no matter how crazed or transparently goofy.

Especially if you let Rep. Bachmann count the crowd.

500 prairiefire  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:54:12pm

re: #481 WindUpBird

I think Al Franken is smart, also. I look forward to watching his career in the Senate. Stephanie Miller is a hoot and at least Ed Schultz gets mad.
My super librul mama is off Miss Goodman at the moment for her criticism of President Obama.

501 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:54:48pm

re: #497 Dark_Falcon

lol, mmhmm.

The funny thing is that Jamesfirecat and I had a conversation about using absurdist examples above. Miss that?

502 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:55:02pm

re: #499 Decatur Deb

Especially if you let Rep. Bachmann count the crowd.

She's counting in base 2; it's not that hard to grasp, really.

503 prairiefire  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:55:49pm

re: #483 Guanxi88

You get the feeling, at least with her, that she's about the last person you'd want to have a drink with. Gimme a brawling, loud, fun-loving guy (or gal) and, politics aside, i can at least listen to him or her, provided he or she is bright.

So, when did we have that drink?/

504 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:55:50pm

re: #472 Varek Raith

You aren't seriously comparing Walter's essay to...TimeCube, are you???
???

gah. He's taking issue with the fact that mere effort somehow increases your standing and makes your argument more virtuous. Do I need to put more effort into an argument for someone to take me seriously, even when I obviously have facts and expertise on my side? I suspect this is why Ludwig often becomes frustrated here.

I understand EXACTLY what Windsagio is saying, i think most people do as well, but there's all this OMG FALSE OUTRAGE. I'm not some genius, the point was made over and over that effort does not equal correctness.

The everyone-race-to-the-outrage thing, man, it gets kinda old. and now I'm going to GET EDUCATED STUPID IN THE 24 HOUR TIME CUBE REVOLVE REVOLVE

505 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:55:55pm

re: #476 prairiefire

actually they tried to go big time from jump street,instead of starting small and building a following.(a tried and true recipe for failure and disaster.see the WFL(both of them) the usfl,the xfl etc.) Not to mention some of their folks were not really radio people.

506 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:56:08pm

re: #478 Guanxi88

Well, I never thought of them as anything other or more than a sort of Westboro Baptist Church of the anti-war movement. I had - and continue to have - a bit of fun at their expense, but that's about the extent of it.

I'd imagine it's not too awfully difficult to get together a group of up to 1000 people for any cause, no matter how crazed or transparently goofy.

Their leftist leanings don't even compare to the counterpart mentioned. In the beginning they were just a quirky anti-war group, 99.9% older women who wanted to stir public awareness. With respect to the left side of things, getting 1000 people together probably isn't too hard to accomplish. On the flip side though, it is quite the effort to get about 100-200 pro-Israel people to show up, at least here in the San Francisco Bay Area.

507 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:56:30pm

re: #492 windsagio

Thats totally why he's pushing for Health Care reform... because its the politically smart thing to do :p

totally wrong approach to let Pelosi write it...but then again BO has never written any legislation...he got what he paid for, a terrible bill...he doesn't lead, he hands off..and now Pelosi is publicly criticizing him....he's very stupid and is in a world of hurt, the same hurt his supporters deny

508 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:56:31pm

re: #496 Vambo

Amy's great, she is quite boring though if you're not interested in her opinion.

That's really the difference, Fox News is all showmanship. If entertainment is more important to people than news when they are watching... uh, NEWS... we're in a pretty sad state.

I'm interested in her opinion, I'd just rather read it than listen to it. My standards for tlak radio are very high, ergo I can currently only listen to Phil Hendrie. :D

509 Guanxi88  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:56:46pm

re: #503 prairiefire

So, when did we have that drink?/

Hard to say. I drank so much, for so very long, with so very many folk, I sorta lost track.

If I missed you - and I didn't miss many in my carousing days - I'll hoist a Lone Star in your honor this evening.

510 Racer X  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:57:15pm

re: #498 jaunte

They're running out of other people's money!

The Horror!

511 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:57:25pm

re: #507 albusteve

that's a bit offpoint. Are you agreeing that it was impolitic of him to pursue it?

512 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:57:43pm

The GAZE muscle grows stronger.

513 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:57:43pm

re: #496 Vambo

Amy's great, she is quite boring though if you're not interested in her opinion.

That's really the difference, Fox News is all showmanship. If entertainment is more important to people than news when they are watching... uh, NEWS... we're in a pretty sad state.

Yeah, that's what the Daily Show is for!

514 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:58:30pm

re: #504 WindUpBird

I'm not outraged by anything on this thread, tonight. I am, however, tired of the snarkiness and insults instead of actual debate. I may disagree with Walter's essay, but I sure as hell see no reason to insult him.
Clear?

515 jaunte  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:58:55pm

re: #510 Racer X

That four-year retirement discrepancy would bug me.

516 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:59:05pm

re: #497 Dark_Falcon

GAZE

and people wonder where Sharmuta went to?...and others

517 Racer X  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:59:05pm

re: #512 MandyManners

The GAZE muscle grows stronger.

In bed.

518 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:59:13pm

re: #154 Vambo

Richard John Neuhaus spent quantity time on both sides of the right/left divide during his career. As a young Lutheran clergyman in the 60s he was active in the civil rights and anti-war movement. After becoming disillusioned with the Left in the 70s, he tacked Right and later became a Catholic priest. I didn't give any indication, so there's no way you could have known, but hope this helps.

519 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:59:30pm

re: #501 windsagio

lol, mmhmm.

The funny thing is that Jamesfirecat and I had a conversation about using absurdist examples above. Miss that?

Yes, I did.

520 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 6:59:51pm

re: #484 iceweasel

ACK!twilight...grumble...time was vampires were supposed to be evil creatures of the night...then ann rice turned them into the high school girls gay friend....

old man cane waving rant over)

521 Racer X  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:00:23pm

re: #515 jaunte

That four-year retirement discrepancy would bug me.

No shit.

522 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:01:00pm

re: #514 Varek Raith

Its one of those things where it never occurred to me that anyone would actually think I was calling Walter crazy. Live and learn I guess.

I do find it odd, that you didn't mind so much what I said above, but got angry over that.

523 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:01:42pm

re: #522 windsagio

Its one of those things where it never occurred to me that anyone would actually think I was calling Walter crazy. Live and learn I guess.

I do find it odd, that you didn't mind so much what I said above, but got angry over that.

Which post? I'm missing quite a bit tonight, apparently.

524 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:02:18pm

re: #518 The Sanity Inspector

Richard John Neuhaus spent quantity time on both sides of the right/left divide during his career. As a young Lutheran clergyman in the 60s he was active in the civil rights and anti-war movement. After becoming disillusioned with the Left in the 70s, he tacked Right and later became a Catholic priest. I didn't give any indication, so there's no way you could have known, but hope this helps.

thanks. His post-70s bias shows in that quote. Maybe it was a different time when he made it, but there's no question the right wing is leading the cult of beyondism in 2010.

525 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:02:36pm

re: #523 Varek Raith

Which post? I'm missing quite a bit tonight, apparently.

Quite Concur.

526 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:02:40pm

re: #523 Varek Raith

over a few. I'd rather start that all over again, but trust me its worse :P

(280 for one, since you asked)

527 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:03:22pm

re: #522 windsagio

Its one of those things where it never occurred to me that anyone would actually think I was calling Walter crazy. Live and learn I guess.

I do find it odd, that you didn't mind so much what I said above, but got angry over that.

a lot goes over your head

528 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:03:50pm

re: #527 albusteve

A gratuitous insult! Nobody's ever given me one of those before! Updinged for originality.

529 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:03:58pm

re: #520 Boondock St. Bender

ACK!twilight...grumble...time was vampires were supposed to be evil creatures of the night...then ann rice turned them into the high school girls gay friend...

old man cane waving rant over)

Yeah! But I love Buffy, so...
Read this piece on Twilight kind of recently. The author is a bit of a nut, I think, (I think I've run across some other pieces by her in the past) but this really creeped me out:

Meyers continues this miseducation of our youth by having her teen heroine, Bella (yes, the heroine’s name is Bella and she’s beautiful) wait till she’s married to have sex. Of course, Bella wants to have sex before she marries her vampire boyfriend Edward, BUT sex with her vampire boyfriend will KILL her since he’s so super powerful and she’s just a weak, delicate flower. When the two are finally married, right after her high school graduation, they do have sex before she’s a vampire and it very nearly does kill her (there’s a lot of bruising and a down pillow torn to shreds by Edward in an effort not to rip her head off). Then (SPOILER ALERT) Bella becomes pregnant (have sex even once and…) and the baby is going to KILL her since it’s not fully human.

Abortion? No, never. She insists on having the baby no matter what. Oy vey. Could it get worse? Yes, because in the end, the baby is born, she dies and then is brought back to life, well, not life, but undeadness, as a vampire, the child, a girl, is perfect in every way and all who see her fall madly in love with her, and the “problem” of teen pregnancy, potentially deadly sexual acts, and marrying across class and species lines goes away.

Except for one thing: the daughter is immediately betrothed to her best friend, a werewolf by the name of Jacob. So a bit of bizarro pedophilia is thrown in just in case the sane parents reading this dreck with their children weren’t sufficiently grossed out by the crazy Christian messages about sex and pregnancy permeating the series.


Yikes.

530 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:04:05pm

re: #526 windsagio

Yep, I missed those. Though, I see no need to get into what's already been gotten into.
:)

531 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:04:24pm

re: #507 albusteve

totally wrong approach to let Pelosi write it...but then again BO has never written any legislation...he got what he paid for, a terrible bill...he doesn't lead, he hands off..and now Pelosi is publicly criticizing him...he's very stupid and is in a world of hurt, the same hurt his supporters deny

Yes how dare Obama expect the Legislative branch of the government to write its own laws to vote on, instead of having them cluster around his desk like a puppies waiting for table scraps for him to provide them with something to vote on!

532 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:04:26pm

re: #520 Boondock St. Bender

ACK!twilight...grumble...time was vampires were supposed to be evil creatures of the night...then ann rice turned them into the high school girls gay friend...

old man cane waving rant over)

Back when vampires were vampires

533 Racer X  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:04:37pm

You still owe Walter an apology.

re: #172 windsagio

I have to disagree with your main point.

He's being deeply dishonest. So deeply he might not even be able to admit it himself.

He can't directly go after AGW, so he's convinced himself that he's found a smoking gun... when he simply hasn't.

Beyond that, he just hasn't lived up to the claim he made for his essay, but he can't even admit that.

Whats the point if he's totally incapable of acting in good faith?

534 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:04:59pm

re: #524 Vambo

nah the crazy left has just piped down lately...both sides(extreme right&left) are guilty of batshittery in the third degree.

535 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:05:03pm

re: #529 iceweasel

I don't want to insult mormons, but those books are very very VERY mormon.

536 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:05:06pm

re: #477 WindUpBird

Is effort more important than facts?

He had those too. It's the conclusion that's a bit lacking.

537 Unakite  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:05:20pm

re: #325 windsagio

You know how it is, there's something that like it or not, you think is true.

In general, you keep it down because you know it won't be a popular position, and will get abuse heaped on you... Especially if you're talking about someone else whose a popular person.

The thing is, like it or not, that's what you feel is right... what's the solution?

That's bulls*t. Whether it's this thread or others (and not just you), it's not what you say but how you say it. And now you're getting all whiny and victimy.

538 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:05:27pm

re: #528 windsagio

A gratuitous insult! Nobody's ever given me one of those before! Updinged for originality.

I was simply agreeing with you....

"Its one of those things where it never occurred to me"

539 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:05:38pm

Racist conference canceled: American Renaissance: Death Threats End Biennial Conference of Controversial Group

Zealots opposed to a meeting to be held by a Virginia non-profit organization have bullied three hotels into cancelling the event, thus making it impossible for the group to hold its biennial conference. American Renaissance (AR), a monthly magazine that has published on race and immigration for 20 years, had scheduled its ninth biennial meeting for the weekend of Feb. 19 through 21.

Opponents then pressured the hotels -- leafleting the premises, flooding switchboards with phone calls, finding the home phone numbers of hotel employees and threatening them with death -- thus causing the hotels to cancel their contracts to hold the meeting. The last hotel canceled today. More than 250 people had registered for the conference, and guests and speakers were expected from as far away as Britain and South Africa.

American Renaissance has held conferences since 1994. There have been protesters and crank calls, but conferences have always taken place peacefully and successfully.

AR is a race-realist publication edited by Jared Taylor that takes controversial positions:

* That diversity is a source of conflict and not a strength.

* That people of all racial groups prefer the company of people like themselves.

* That Asians are, on average, more intelligent than whites, who are more intelligent than blacks.


This is the same conference Breitbart's undercover ACORN operative attended.

540 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:06:15pm

re: #533 Racer X


I don't think I do. You can keep bringing it up, but unless you come up with some utterly brilliant position, I'm not going to change my position on that.

/I'll just go back to not mentioning how I feel.

541 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:06:17pm

re: #533 Racer X

You still owe Walter an apology.

hubris...it's an infection with some people

542 Gus  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:06:49pm

I would like to add:

Good Girls Don't - The Knack

And elevators.

543 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:07:11pm

re: #537 Unakite

That's bulls*t. Whether it's this thread or others (and not just you), it's not what you say but how you say it. And now you're getting all whiny and victimy.

I was the one who was suppose to play the victim I posted the essay.

544 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:07:21pm

Walter, you have presented convincing evidence that CRU negligently used and relied upon significant amounts of flawed data over a period of many years, and that the problems were not isolated but rather were systemic.
IMO you have raised a prima facie case that CRU's credibility has been seriously compromised.
Good job!

545 jaunte  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:07:41pm

re: #539 Killgore Trout

race-realist
Now there's a real stretch.

546 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:08:06pm

re: #537 Unakite

heh, I'd love to see a nice way to say that.

547 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:08:09pm

re: #542 Gus 802

I would like to add:

Good Girls Don't - The Knack


[Video]And elevators.


Nuke 'em from orbit.
/

548 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:08:11pm

re: #529 iceweasel

wow and i thought explaining anime storylines sounded insane....

549 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:08:48pm

re: #535 windsagio

I don't want to insult mormons, but those books are very very VERY mormon.

Really?

I don't recall Edward having a harem of different lady loves at the same time, what with Bella being is 1 TRWE LUV and all....


Sorry it's just when I hear mormons I think Polygamy

Oh and "Where my sons of Ham at?"

550 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:09:03pm

re: #543 Walter L. Newton

I was the one who was suppose to play the victim I posted the essay.

You are many things, Walter, but you're never a victim. You're too willing to stand up and fight to enjoy martyr cookies. That's a good trait in a man. Chicks dig it, or so I'm told.

551 Gus  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:09:40pm

re: #547 Varek Raith

Nuke 'em from orbit.
/

Quick! To the stairs and into the command module for immediate lift-off!

/

552 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:09:46pm

re: #549 jamesfirecat

Really?

I don't recall Edward having a harem of different lady loves at the same time, what with Bella being is 1 TRWE LUV and all...

Sorry it's just when I hear mormons I think Polygamy

Oh and "Where my sons of Ham at?"

You are going to be a font of endless amusement.

553 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:09:54pm

re: #544 Spare O'Lake

Walter, you have presented convincing evidence that CRU negligently used and relied upon significant amounts of flawed data over a period of many years, and that the problems were not isolated but rather were systemic.
IMO you have raised a prima facie case that CRU's credibility has been seriously compromised.
Good job!

Thanks. (my girlfriend and I are laughing our asses off. When I saw your nice comment I suggested to her that I should stay in character and tell you "FU." She smacked me)

554 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:10:25pm

re: #539 Killgore Trout

sound like some reeaaal nice folks....on some education is wasted.

555 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:10:34pm

re: #543 Walter L. Newton

I was the one who was suppose to play the victim I posted the essay.

some empty headed people will try and use you to promote their own ego....it's just blog vanity...good job nevertheless...it's always the people that put zero effort into a subject that criticize the most....some good examples here tonight

556 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:10:41pm

re: #545 jaunte

There's also an important reminder in there as to why Michelle Malkin aligns with racist sites like VDARE. Many racists consider Asians to be among the superior races.

557 Gus  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:10:50pm
558 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:10:55pm

re: #552 Decatur Deb

You are going to be a font of endless amusement.

Do you mean that in a good way or in a Court Jester way?

559 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:10:56pm

re: #547 Varek Raith

Nuke 'em from orbit.
/

Don't you usually prefer to use a superlaser?

560 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:10:56pm

re: #549 jamesfirecat

There's a ton of things, I'll dig up the analysis somewhere... Or actually I might ask you to excuse me. The way things are going tonight, I don't need to insult a major religion as well :p

561 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:11:06pm

re: #543 Walter L. Newton

walter where is it posted(got here late)

562 avanti  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:11:08pm

re: #544 Spare O'Lake

Walter, you have presented convincing evidence that CRU negligently used and relied upon significant amounts of flawed data over a period of many years, and that the problems were not isolated but rather were systemic.
IMO you have raised a prima facie case that CRU's credibility has been seriously compromised.
Good job!

Then I was just a accident that the "flawed" data followed the rest of the data sets ?

563 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:11:16pm

re: #527 albusteve

a lot goes over your head

BAM! *chuckles* You don't mince words.

564 jaunte  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:11:28pm

Another good political story from NPR this evening: (4 min. audio)
Terrorism Trials Pose Dilemma For U.S.

The Obama administration wants to try captured terrorism suspects in civilian court. Although administration officials continue to criticize the use of military tribunals, they want to keep that option open for al-Qaida operatives such as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. That would be a reversal from Attorney General Eric Holder's announcement that Mohammed would be tried in a civilian court near Ground Zero.
565 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:11:45pm

re: #561 Boondock St. Bender

walter where is it posted(got here late)

It's posted over several comments.
I had to do a search for Walter L. Newton, from the top, and found them fairly quickly.

566 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:11:58pm

re: #488 albusteve

BO is centrist where he has no political option, otherwise he's hard core left...he's learning as he goes with regard to Bush's policies...his campaign said otherwise with regard to Gitmo, investigations into waterboarding etc...he stands for nothing, but just blows whatever way is politically profitable...if he re-runs you will hear the same pandering all over again

Um, the left consists of groups descended from the 4th International. Obama has nothing to do with that. As a movement it's almost dead in the US. I was a member of Trotskyist group in college but it was ultimately a waste of time.

I really think it's inaccurate to call any non-revolutionary organization "leftist."

567 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:12:12pm

re: #557 Gus 802

The Knack - My Sharona


[Video]Doug Fieger, RIP

Wheee! Love it!
This is making me want to post something else....I feel a shrieking harpy moment coming on!

568 Gus  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:12:26pm

re: #556 Killgore Trout

There's also an important reminder in there as to why Michelle Malkin aligns with racist sites like VDARE. Many racists consider Asians to be among the superior races.

What's Malkin's excuse?

/

569 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:12:27pm

re: #558 jamesfirecat

Do you mean that in a good way or in a Court Jester way?

In a roller-skater-in-the-minefield way.

570 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:12:49pm

re: #563 eclectic infidel

he's certainly an aggressive one >>

571 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:12:54pm

re: #559 Dark_Falcon

Don't you usually prefer to use a superlaser?

Sure, though, I nuke 'em first then superlaser them. Then use the sun crusher on their star. Then use a series of P.S.Ps to annihilate the remains of the system.
/Damn, that's a lot of Dark Side Points gained...

572 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:13:09pm

re: #544 Spare O'Lake

Walter, you have presented convincing evidence that CRU negligently used and relied upon significant amounts of flawed data over a period of many years, and that the problems were not isolated but rather were systemic.
IMO you have raised a prima facie case that CRU's credibility has been seriously compromised.
Good job!

And to piggyback on your comment, CRU and the University of East Anglia also admit that there is a problem and they are intending to make an inquiry.

The University of East Anglia announced on Thursday that it would conduct an "independent, external reappraisal of the science" used in the publications produced by its world-renowned Climatic Research Unit.

Sir Muir said the results of his inquiry would be published but warned that it would not ''audit the [unit's] scientific conclusions", only the scientists' behaviour and how they followed data procedures.

If there is no problem, what's up with that?

573 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:13:27pm

re: #556 Killgore Trout

There's also an important reminder in there as to why Michelle Malkin aligns with racist sites like VDARE. Many racists consider Asians to be among the superior races.

of all the people that are involved in this lunatic movement, MM mystifies me the most...proof that anything can happen, and probably will...I don't care about all the others but she has been a huge disappointment

574 Gus  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:14:01pm

re: #567 iceweasel

Wheee! Love it!
This is making me want to post something else...I feel a shrieking harpy moment coming on!

Quick! Scour the headlines! Check Drudge! There must be an update on Michelle Obama's garden!111!!1

575 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:14:20pm

re: #561 Boondock St. Bender

walter where is it posted(got here late)

Up thread or read or download it here.

Download this essay in PDF format

Download Ian Harris' 314 pages of programmers notes in PDF format

576 Unakite  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:14:24pm

re: #344 jamesfirecat

"The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate."

It says it right there at the top one of the ways to change the constitution starts with a 2/3rds vote in both houses of "the Congress" like I said back in my original post.

So Mandy why did you say the Congress couldn't amend the Constitution?

Probably late to this party, but you need to read what you wrote. There is a difference between proposing an amendment to the Constitution and actually amending the Constitution.

577 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:14:52pm

re: #572 Walter L. Newton

it goes back to the same question, 'were the conclusions accurate or not?' The impression seems to be, whatever the stuff with the programming meant, it didn't hae a meaningful result on the results.


//damn, I said I'd go bakc to something. I'll go now and search up above to try to find it.

578 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:14:54pm

What are we talking about?

(Just got back from a long phone call with my old girlfriend (rich, too!) who wants me to move to Mexico with her.)

579 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:16:29pm

re: #566 Conservative Moonbat

Um, the left consists of groups descended from the 4th International. Obama has nothing to do with that. As a movement it's almost dead in the US. I was a member of Trotskyist group in college but it was ultimately a waste of time.

I really think it's inaccurate to call any non-revolutionary organization "leftist."

I've been called worse by far...wordiness and verbage impresses me not...the left is what it is...not the center or right, pretty simple

580 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:17:05pm

re: #578 Cato the Elder

What are we talking about?

(Just got back from a long phone call with my old girlfriend (rich, too!) who wants me to move to Mexico with her.)

You're a lucky man, Cato, to attract high-end women like that.

581 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:17:05pm

re: #576 Unakite

Probably late to this party, but you need to read what you wrote. There is a difference between proposing an amendment to the Constitution and actually amending the Constitution.

Yeah that's been pointed out to me, my bad.

582 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:17:17pm

re: #374 jamesfirecat

Okay gotcha.

This has been my down dinging learning moment of the day brought to me by the letters "S" for State and "L" for Legislature along with the number -1!

Can you tell me how to get... how to get to Ell F Geee?

I could do that.
But it isn't nice to be that mean.
And, well, to be honest, I don't think you're capable, or interested in learning much, anyway.

583 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:17:21pm

there it is:

This statement is misleading "There is no indication whatsoever of any problem with the CRU data."

CRU produces a whole suite of data bases. CRUTEM is one of many. My discussion was in regards to CRU TS 3.0 which Harris was tasked with to create a new version by Dec. 2009.

Except for the fact that the CRU Time Slice data base feed some data to CRUTEM, it's not the same data base.

I have not done any research on CRUTEM.

See my essay above.

How about we talk about the project that Ian was working on, the project that is the body of my essay.

You are deflecting to another subject.

I think the point that Obdi was making is that the data is inline with what it should be, and with other data sets, and thus presumably correct.

Since the original point was to show that programming errors was leading to incorrect data, this would seem to refute that point.

584 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:17:42pm

re: #529 iceweasel

Is that the same as this?

[Link: chud.com...]

585 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:17:50pm

re: #580 Dark_Falcon

You're a lucky man, Cato, to attract high-end women like that.

It's that Bondesque car he was cruising around in!

586 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:18:05pm

re: #570 windsagio

he's certainly an aggressive one >>

a real beast eh?...you are someone else's poodle...I speak for myself

587 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:18:23pm

re: #571 Varek Raith

Sure, though, I nuke 'em first then superlaser them. Then use the sun crusher on their star. Then use a series of P.S.Ps to annihilate the remains of the system.
/Damn, that's a lot of Dark Side Points gained...

Number of DS points: ELEVENTY!!!11111

588 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:18:37pm

re: #582 Floral Giraffe

I could do that.
But it isn't nice to be that mean.
And, well, to be honest, I don't think you're capable, or interested in learning much, anyway.

Insult my capability if you wish, but never, EVER say I don't have an interest in learning more!

589 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:18:40pm

re: #586 albusteve

OK, I've gotta ask, whose poodle am I?

590 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:18:48pm

re: #578 Cato the Elder

What are we talking about?

(Just got back from a long phone call with my old girlfriend (rich, too!) who wants me to move to Mexico with her.)

go...then invite me down

591 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:19:13pm

re: #578 Cato the Elder

cato!by the by...good to have you back! so when you moving to mexico?

592 Killgore Trout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:19:48pm

re: #573 albusteve

She always seemed a little rabid to me.

593 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:19:51pm

re: #580 Dark_Falcon

You're a lucky man, Cato, to attract high-end women like that.

he's got a big....intellect or whatever she calls it

594 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:20:02pm

re: #578 Cato the Elder

What are we talking about?

(Just got back from a long phone call with my old girlfriend (rich, too!) who wants me to move to Mexico with her.)

The one caution I'd give you is the situation down in Mexico right now.

595 Gus  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:20:06pm

re: #578 Cato the Elder

What are we talking about?

(Just got back from a long phone call with my old girlfriend (rich, too!) who wants me to move to Mexico with her.)

What does Haku think?

596 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:20:24pm

re: #587 Dark_Falcon

Number of DS points: ELEVENTY!!!11111

Hmm, did the Galactic Alliance have weapons that 'fired' black holes (PSP) at their targets? I know the Vong used them for defense and propulsion..

597 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:20:46pm

re: #562 avanti

Then I was just a accident that the "flawed" data followed the rest of the data sets ?

I'm not sure what you are talking about. Let me lay it out like this.

1) CRU has programs that create data about climate and temperature, program they have been using since the 1990's.

2) Ian Harris takes over as the chief programmer in 2006, data modeler, IT guy and is tasked with creating a new version of the CRU Time Slice data base.

3) He tries to do it, finds that the programs that have been being used since the 90's are faulty.

4) He spends until Dec. 2009 trying to fix the programs and create the CRU TS 3.0 data base.

5) He finally creates the database, starts sending it our, and even after that, scientist are noticing problems with the data.

Before Ian came along, the CRU was spitting out bad data in some form or another.

That was my contention and and Ian Harris' notes prove that.

598 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:21:06pm

re: #566 Conservative Moonbat

Um, the left consists of groups descended from the 4th International. Obama has nothing to do with that. As a movement it's almost dead in the US. I was a member of Trotskyist group in college but it was ultimately a waste of time.

I really think it's inaccurate to call any non-revolutionary organization "leftist."

You're applying a clinically tight definition. I've always considered myself leftist, and have only voted for a bland US socialist once or twice.

599 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:21:40pm

re: #592 Killgore Trout

She always seemed a little rabid to me.

well it's over now for her...I am an Army of One and she no longer serves me....how's that?

600 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:22:03pm

re: #579 albusteve

I've been called worse by far...wordiness and verbage impresses me not...the left is what it is...not the center or right, pretty simple

what's the center?

601 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:22:40pm

re: #599 albusteve

well it's over now for her...I am an Army of One and she no longer serves me...how's that?

You know, I picture you as Duke Nukem now.
:)

602 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:22:40pm

re: #585 Varek Raith

It's that Bondesque car he was cruising around in!

Not just Bondesque - the Jag I was driving is built on the same frame as the Aston-Martin.

603 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:23:06pm

re: #578 Cato the Elder

What are we talking about?

(Just got back from a long phone call with my old girlfriend (rich, too!) who wants me to move to Mexico with her.)

Hasta la vista, baby.

604 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:23:16pm

re: #602 Cato the Elder

Not just Bondesque - the Jag I was driving is built on the same frame as the Aston-Martin.

Sweet.

605 Unakite  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:23:17pm

re: #391 MandyManners

Since I was 17, I've had one copy or another of the U.S. Constitution on my desk. Do you have one? If not, please get one.

How many different copies are there?
//

606 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:23:17pm

re: #600 Conservative Moonbat

what's the center?

I'm busy elsewhere

607 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:23:22pm

re: #574 Gus 802

Quick! Scour the headlines! Check Drudge! There must be an update on Michelle Obama's garden!111!!1

Damn. I was thinking of that horrible video where Pammycakes and her two daughters danced and sang along to My Sharona-- "My Sharia". Lyrics by the shrieking harpy herself.

Alas, she seems to have thought better of it and scrubbed it from the internets. :(

608 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:23:34pm

re: #597 Walter L. Newton

Before Ian came along, the CRU was spitting out bad data in some form or another.

You have not shown this to be true.

609 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:24:10pm

re: #601 Varek Raith

You know, I picture you as Duke Nukem now.
:)

your ass, your face...what's the difference?
Duke

610 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:24:21pm

re: #552 Decatur Deb

You are going to be a font of endless amusement.

I just HAVE to quote that!
For the entertainment value!
LOL!

611 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:24:27pm

re: #598 Decatur Deb

You're applying a clinically tight definition. I've always considered myself leftist, and have only voted for a bland US socialist once or twice.

I know. It just annoys me to hear people bitch and moan about leftists when the people in question are center to center right (like Obama).

612 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:24:30pm

re: #597 Walter L. Newton

I think we're at the crux of the disagreement.

You've shown how potential errors could cause flawed data.

The results (unless they're all fixed, and I trust nobody is saying that) show no meaningful variation...

The problem is the leap from 'could' to 'does'.

613 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:24:46pm

re: #605 Unakite

How many different copies are there?
//

Good one!

614 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:25:20pm
615 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:25:30pm

re: #595 Gus 802

What does Haku think?

As long as it's High Mexico (= snow in winter) he's fine with it. And he loves Kate.

616 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:25:38pm

re: #586 albusteve

a real beast eh?...you are someone else's poodle...I speak for myself

I really really wanna know. Whose poodle?

Do I get to start guessing? :D

617 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:25:41pm

re: #558 jamesfirecat

Do you mean that in a good way or in a Court Jester way?

OMG.
Holding ribs, in , to keep them from breaking!
Do you not know?
OMG.
I guess, not!

618 Gus  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:25:42pm

re: #607 iceweasel

Damn. I was thinking of that horrible video where Pammycakes and her two daughters danced and sang along to My Sharona-- "My Sharia". Lyrics by the shrieking harpy herself.

Alas, she seems to have thought better of it and scrubbed it from the internets. :(

Oh, that. Nothing more pathetic than wingnuts trying to be cool. That's basically defacing the song. That woman has Islam Derangement Syndrome.

619 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:26:04pm

re: #583 windsagio

there it is:

I think the point that Obdi was making is that the data is inline with what it should be, and with other data sets, and thus presumably correct.

Since the original point was to show that programming errors was leading to incorrect data, this would seem to refute that point.

I will say it one more time, In 2006 Harris was tasked with creating CRU TS version 3.0. He tried to use the programs that were used to create version of CRU TS 1.0 onward and he found that the programs spit out bad data.

That would mean that the programs, spitting out data that was use to create CRU TS 1.0 onward, before 2006, were faulty.

That's what Ian is complaining about, the sad state of the existing databases.


“OH FUCK THIS. It's Sunday evening, I've worked all weekend, and just when I thought it was done I'm hitting yet another problem that's based on the hopeless state of our databases. There is no uniform data integrity, it's just a catalogue of issues that continues to grow as they're found.”

As he said "hopeless state of our databases. There is no uniformed data integrity."

As a programmer myself, that simple statement is scary.

620 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:26:32pm

re: #611 Conservative Moonbat

I know. It just annoys me to hear people bitch and moan about leftists when the people in question are center to center right (like Obama).

I know he's a centrist, because he's starting to tick me off. (Wife is far more ticked.)

621 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:27:13pm

re: #562 avanti

Then I was just a accident that the "flawed" data followed the rest of the data sets ?

Do you know for a fact that the original flawed data was retained in its original form and was not materially incorrect?

622 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:27:17pm

re: #602 Cato the Elder

Not just Bondesque - the Jag I was driving is built on the same frame as the Aston-Martin.

and the Austin Healey 3000....really fast and really tight, they are glued to the ground with brakes so huge you need to decompress when you slam them on....big fun

623 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:27:18pm

re: #578 Cato the Elder

What are we talking about?

(Just got back from a long phone call with my old girlfriend (rich, too!) who wants me to move to Mexico with her.)

Is this a former girlfriend, or a girlfriend who is old?

And is this an offer you can't refuse?

Inquiring minds are desperate to know.

624 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:27:29pm

re: #612 windsagio

I think we're at the crux of the disagreement.

You've shown how potential errors could cause flawed data.

The results (unless they're all fixed, and I trust nobody is saying that) show no meaningful variation...

The problem is the leap from 'could' to 'does'.

I think any dataset of that size is going to contain errors introduced from somewhere or another.

I tried to bring up the point earlier that the physical weather stations are far more likely to introduce bad data than code errors.

625 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:27:56pm

re: #608 Charles

You have not shown this to be true.

I can only quote Harris...


“OH FUCK THIS. It's Sunday evening, I've worked all weekend, and just when I thought it was done I'm hitting yet another problem that's based on the hopeless state of our databases. There is no uniform data integrity, it's just a catalogue of issues that continues to grow as they're found.”

As a programmer, this is very clear to me.

626 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:28:05pm

re: #607 iceweasel

Damn. I was thinking of that horrible video where Pammycakes and her two daughters danced and sang along to My Sharona-- "My Sharia". Lyrics by the shrieking harpy herself.

Alas, she seems to have thought better of it and scrubbed it from the internets. :(

Does she still have the video up where she is rolling around in the surf in her bikini?

627 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:28:35pm

re: #625 Walter L. Newton

As a programmer, this is very clear to me.

As a programmer, it's clear to me that Harris was unhappy with the data he had to work with.

Nothing more.

628 Unakite  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:28:37pm

re: #543 Walter L. Newton

I was the one who was suppose to play the victim I posted the essay.

I for one liked it, and I've never seen you play the victim.

629 avanti  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:28:39pm

re: #597 Walter L. Newton

I'm not sure what you are talking about. Let me lay it out like this.

1) CRU has programs that create data about climate and temperature, program they have been using since the 1990's.

2) Ian Harris takes over as the chief programmer in 2006, data modeler, IT guy and is tasked with creating a new version of the CRU Time Slice data base.

3) He tries to do it, finds that the programs that have been being used since the 90's are faulty.

4) He spends until Dec. 2009 trying to fix the programs and create the CRU TS 3.0 data base.

5) He finally creates the database, starts sending it our, and even after that, scientist are noticing problems with the data.

Before Ian came along, the CRU was spitting out bad data in some form or another.

That was my contention and and Ian Harris' notes prove that.

My point is rather simple, did the CRU data have any real impact on the the overall data even during the earlier period ? From all I've seen, the CRU data did not disagree with with the other data sets to any large degree.

630 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:28:40pm

re: #619 Walter L. Newton

argh; we're going around in circles now.

I understand what you're trying to say with your paper.

As a separate question, regardless of what Harris thinks, explain how their results are wrong, when the data seems to match.

631 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:29:16pm

re: #618 Gus 802

have you actually read the lyrics to that song...kinda creepy
(pam is kinda creepy too....hi pammy!)

632 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:29:25pm

re: #615 Cato the Elder

As long as it's High Mexico (= snow in winter) he's fine with it. And he loves Kate.

I was down at the border last week, and every high peak across the border had snow on it, and it was cold down there....furry dog weather

633 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:29:43pm

re: #629 avanti

which of course implies that whatever problems there were either weren't significant or got repaired somewhere between Harris and the final out product.

634 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:29:54pm

re: #612 windsagio

I think we're at the crux of the disagreement.

You've shown how potential errors could cause flawed data.

The results (unless they're all fixed, and I trust nobody is saying that) show no meaningful variation...

The problem is the leap from 'could' to 'does'.

No... Ian makes it clear what condition the data is in.


“Am I the first person to attempt to get the CRU databases in working order?!!”

635 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:30:17pm

re: #623 reine.de.tout

Is this a former girlfriend, or a girlfriend who is old?

And is this an offer you can't refuse?

Inquiring minds are desperate to know.

1) former, but fast friends ever since

2) we're talking hacienda with separate wings, so each can do his/her own things

Refuse? Am I in a position?

636 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:30:50pm

re: #610 Floral Giraffe

I just HAVE to quote that!
For the entertainment value!
LOL!

He will grow old and wise and dull someday.

637 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:31:06pm

Austin Healey 3000...
Image: Austin_Healey_3000_red_vl.jpg

638 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:31:55pm

re: #635 Cato the Elder

1) former, but fast friends ever since

2) we're talking hacienda with separate wings, so each can do his/her own things

Refuse? Am I in a position?

I dunno about your position.
(insert silly "in bed" addendum here).

But it does sound like a really good offer. If you don't want to go, put her in touch with me.

639 jaunte  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:32:18pm

re: #635 Cato the Elder

Just hold out for high speed internet.

640 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:32:40pm

re: #635 Cato the Elder

will you have any income? Being dependant on someone can put a wear on a relationship (from both sides) really quickly.

641 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:32:53pm

re: #637 albusteve

back in the seventies,early eighties,i got to watch one of those rust away next to my neighbors house.....very sad.

642 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:32:57pm

re: #629 avanti

re: #630 windsagio

Which data base? Which one... CRUTEM, HADCRUT3, CRU TS 3.0, the NCEP/NCAR from Noaa? All these table relied on each other in some way or another.

Did you read my addendum. Harry fixed another data base that was in the hands of scientist and was faulty.

You have to give Ian “Harry” Harris a lot of credit. Evidently he has been responsible for cleaning up a lot of the mistakes that have existed in climate based datasets in the past. This little narrative represents some of his work with NCEP/NCAR Reanalysis. (National Centers for Environmental Prediction – NOAA - [Link: www.ncep.noaa.gov...]

[Link: www.cru.uea.ac.uk...]

1948-1957 Data Added (Ian Harris, 22 Jul 2008)
2007 Data Added (Ian Harris, 17 Apr 2008)
2006 Data Added (Ian Harris, 11 Mar 2007)
2005 Data Added (Ian Harris, 13 Jan 2006)
2004 Data Added (Ian Harris, 28 Nov 2005)
2003 Data Added (Ian Harris, 11 May 2004)
SURFACE TEMPERATURE ADDED (Ian Harris, 10 December 2003)
WARNING NOTE ADDED FOR SURFACE FLUX TEMPERATURES (Ian Harris, 10 December 2003)
ALL DATASETS UPDATED TO 2002 (Ian Harris, 23 June 2003)
LAND/SEA MASKS ADDED (Ian Harris, 16 December 2002)
Land/Sea Masks for regular and Gaussian grids have been added.
NEW WINDOW ONLINE (Ian Harris, 9 July 2002)
The new Quarter-Spherical Window (0N-90N; 90W-90E) is now in use (see table below).

The old window data (here) has now been entirely replaced.
Please address any requests for new variables to me.
BAD DATA REPLACED (Ian Harris, 23 May 2002)
The TOVS Problem has been resolved and only corrected data appears on this site.

Anyone wishing to access the old (potentially incorrect) data in order to evaluate the extent of the problem should contact me.

643 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:32:58pm

re: #596 Varek Raith

Hmm, did the Galactic Alliance have weapons that 'fired' black holes (PSP) at their targets? I know the Vong used them for defense and propulsion..

No. The only time they used a non-standard weapon was to destroy a Yuuzen Vong worldship with Centerpoint Station's Starbuster. By necessity, an small star cluster was sent supernova in the process. The Starbuster is as destructive as the Suncrusher, but its immobile.

644 Gus  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:33:08pm

re: #631 Boondock St. Bender

have you actually read the lyrics to that song...kinda creepy
(pam is kinda creepy too...hi pammy!)

Nah, never read those lyrics. Never will. I never really read anything from the Shrieking Harpy even during the height of the was on terror.

645 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:33:33pm

re: #640 windsagio

will you have any income? Being dependant on someone can put a wear on a relationship (from both sides) really quickly.

jeez!
that's an awfully personal question!

My southern belle mother would've fainted dead away.

646 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:33:48pm

OK, two things:

A) I am not a scientist - I'm Joe Nye the Language Guy with a special gift for spotting absurdity and mocking it to death.

B) From what I've observed in my lifetime, whenever someone says "the question is settled", it's 1. bullshit 2. lies 3. wishful thinking 4. political or 5. some combination of those.

Just sayin'.

647 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:34:29pm

re: #643 Dark_Falcon

No. The only time they used a non-standard weapon was to destroy a Yuuzen Vong worldship with Centerpoint Station's Starbuster. By necessity, an small star cluster was sent supernova in the process. The Starbuster is as destructive as the Suncrusher, but its immobile.

Ah, thanks. So they used Centerpoint. I read that trilogy years ago.
:)

648 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:34:34pm

re: #619 Walter L. Newton

What you can't answer is HOW MUCH VARIATION in the final results did the bad data cause? Climate research isn't like trying to land a probe on mars where one faulty calculation can mean disaster for the whole prject. It's about variation in large sets of data over a long period of time. Outliers can be found and corrected for algorithmically. It's all about averages.

If the bad data resulted in in various calculations being off by a few hundredths of a percent, it doesn't matter that much.

You can't really say anything meaningful with your findings until you can state the DEGREE of error that was introduced.

649 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:34:46pm

re: #644 Gus 802

nooo the lyrics to "my sharonna"(i'm sure the her version was ready for a straight jacket)

650 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:35:21pm

re: #642 Walter L. Newton

Anyone wishing to access the old (POTENTIALLY INCORRECT) data in order to evaluate the extent of the problem should contact me.

Italicized and caps'd for emphasis.

651 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:35:35pm

re: #641 Boondock St. Bender

back in the seventies,early eighties,i got to watch one of those rust away next to my neighbors house...very sad.

one of my best friends in HS had a 67...it was like two years old at the time....I drove it alot...to see a 3000 go to the dogs is criminal, but I'm easily provoked when it come to vintage cars...or buildings

652 Unakite  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:35:40pm

re: #581 jamesfirecat

Yeah that's been pointed out to me, my bad.

Sorry, I was way behind and catching up. No intention to pile on. :)

653 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:36:04pm

re: #650 windsagio

Italicized and caps'd for emphasis.

Italicized and capsized?

654 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:36:11pm

re: #645 reine.de.tout

heh he doesn't have to tell me, but he should ask himself :P


Otherwise its a good way to lose a friend and be stuck in freakin' mexico.

655 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:36:50pm

re: #652 Unakite

Sorry, I was way behind and catching up. No intention to pile on. :)

Its okay,it was my fault to start with.

656 Gus  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:36:57pm

re: #649 Boondock St. Bender

nooo the lyrics to "my sharonna"(i'm sure the her version was ready for a straight jacket)

Oh, that one. Never really payed much attention to the lyrics. I see now what you're referring to. I've listened to blue lyrics in the past before and some of them are rather wild.

657 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:37:10pm

re: #648 Conservative Moonbat

very well said.

658 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:37:13pm

re: #648 Conservative Moonbat

What you can't answer is HOW MUCH VARIATION in the final results did the bad data cause? Climate research isn't like trying to land a probe on mars where one faulty calculation can mean disaster for the whole prject. It's about variation in large sets of data over a long period of time. Outliers can be found and corrected for algorithmically. It's all about averages.

If the bad data resulted in in various calculations being off by a few hundredths of a percent, it doesn't matter that much.

You can't really say anything meaningful with your findings until you can state the DEGREE of error that was introduced.

Harris can...

“They aren't percentage anomalies! They are percentage anomalies /10. This could explain why the real data areas had variability 10x too low. BUT it shouldn't be - they should be regular percentage anomalies! This whole process is too convoluted and created myriad problems of this kind. I really think we should change it.”

One example. Read Ian Harris' narrative. He goes on about many algorithms and formulas that were written wrong.

Download Ian Harris' 314 pages of programmers notes in PDF format

659 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:37:26pm

re: #651 albusteve

it was sad all it did was sit there (not even covered)slowly becoming more weatherbeaten.yeah,It deserved much better.

660 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:37:26pm

re: #651 albusteve

one of my best friends in HS had a 67...it was like two years old at the time...I drove it alot...to see a 3000 go to the dogs is criminal, but I'm easily provoked when it come to vintage cars...or buildings

It drives me bonkers to see people pawn historical or extremely rare items of any kind. Especially swords...

661 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:38:11pm

re: #635 Cato the Elder

1) former, but fast friends ever since

2) we're talking hacienda with separate wings, so each can do his/her own things

Refuse? Am I in a position?

I hope it's warm, in many ways of the word for you, and Haku the wonder dog. I hope it's lovely, and you enjoy the good times.

662 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:38:12pm

re: #650 windsagio

Italicized and caps'd for emphasis.

BAD DATA REPLACED (Ian Harris, 23 May 2002)

663 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:38:39pm

re: #636 Decatur Deb

He will grow old and wise and dull someday.

Promises, promises, promises!

664 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:38:43pm

re: #655 jamesfirecat

Its okay,it was my fault to start with.

good for you...that will go a long way here

665 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:39:20pm

re: #658 Walter L. Newton

Also, seriously, you can't just keep linking to that PDF as if it totally proves your point. Doing that, especially with a long document is kind of a rhetorical trick.

re: #662 Walter L. Newton

so he fixed it? >>

I know I keep saying it but; "You're showing potential harm. You have failed to show any actual harm.

666 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:39:22pm

re: #661 Floral Giraffe

I hope it's warm, in many ways of the word for you, and Haku the wonder dog. I hope it's lovely, and you enjoy the good times.

Quite Concur.

667 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:39:45pm

re: #645 reine.de.tout

LOL!
My family's response would be
MYOB!

668 firstinla  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:39:47pm

Thanks, Charles. Thanks, Walter. I'm never disappointed when I come to LGF: I always learn something new.

669 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:39:52pm

re: #648 Conservative Moonbat

What you can't answer is HOW MUCH VARIATION in the final results did the bad data cause? Climate research isn't like trying to land a probe on mars where one faulty calculation can mean disaster for the whole prject. It's about variation in large sets of data over a long period of time. Outliers can be found and corrected for algorithmically. It's all about averages.

If the bad data resulted in in various calculations being off by a few hundredths of a percent, it doesn't matter that much.

You can't really say anything meaningful with your findings until you can state the DEGREE of error that was introduced.

And remember, most of the time Harris is talking about EXISTING LEGACY PROGRAMS and DATA BASES. Live, production programs and data. The stuff that was around from the 90's until he took over the programming duties in 2006.

That's a problem.

670 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:39:57pm

re: #653 reine.de.tout

Italicized and capsized?

To make it exter spayshul.

671 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:40:03pm

re: #640 windsagio

will you have any income? Being dependant on someone can put a wear on a relationship (from both sides) really quickly.

I would have my regular-irregular translation fees, same as anywhere I live.

She would have her trust fund.

You can by a lot with euros in Mexico.

672 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:40:55pm

re: #671 Cato the Elder

lol point taken, and sorry if that was rude.


Just having been in a similar situation before (altho' not in Mexico), I can say confidently that it can lead to problems :)

673 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:40:55pm

re: #660 Varek Raith

It drives me bonkers to see people pawn historical or extremely rare items of any kind. Especially swords...

I am especially nutty when it comes to cars...I love cars...with big engines that go fast and burn alot of gas...I'm like notGreen when it comes to vintage cars...

674 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:41:13pm

re: #672 windsagio

oops just for you 'altho' bugs you I remember, repair to 'although'

675 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:41:26pm

re: #651 albusteve

one of my best friends in HS had a 67...it was like two years old at the time...I drove it alot...to see a 3000 go to the dogs is criminal, but I'm easily provoked when it come to vintage cars...or buildings

I'm especially hard on those who run old buildings down. The good news is that Chicago has become hard on such folks too. One of the good things Richard M. Daley has done has been to see to it that a number of landmark building were designated as such and they are then held to maintenance standards.

676 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:41:37pm

re: #665 windsagio

Also, seriously, you can't just keep linking to that PDF as if it totally proves your point. Doing that, especially with a long document is kind of a rhetorical trick.

re: #662 Walter L. Newton

so he fixed it? >>

I know I keep saying it but; "You're showing potential harm. You have failed to show any actual harm.

Yes I can, because there are 314 pages of notes which highlight the problems of the live production programs. If you are not interested in the notes, then you don't have to read it.

677 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:42:25pm

re: #580 Dark_Falcon

You're a lucky man, Cato, to attract high-end women like that.

Tell that to Pam.

678 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:42:32pm

You know, I pay Comcast up the wazoo for high speed internet, the least they could do is keep it freaking stable.
Ahem, excuse me.
/rant

679 Mich-again  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:42:47pm

Interesting tidbit about the NYT regarding their coverage of the events in Afghanistan. link. Hmm. It wasn't too long ago when this would have been unthinkable for the grey lady. They actually sat on a story at the request of the WH? New administration, new ethics. They would have laughed if GWB's staff made this sort of request.

The New York Times learned of the operation on Thursday, but delayed reporting it at the request of White House officials, who contended that making it public would end a hugely successful intelligence-gathering effort. The officials said that the group’s leaders had been unaware of Mullah Baradar’s capture and that if it became public they might cover their tracks and become more careful about communicating with each other.
680 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:43:24pm

re: #671 Cato the Elder

I would have my regular-irregular translation fees, same as anywhere I live.

She would have her trust fund.

You can by a lot with euros in Mexico.

still waiting for my invitation...I'm patient tho...hurry up!

681 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:43:30pm

re: #671 Cato the Elder

Regardless of what you choose to do.
I hope you enjoy it to the fullest!
And, Haku, too.

682 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:44:09pm

re: #676 Walter L. Newton

Yes I can, because there are 314 pages of notes which highlight the problems of the live production programs. If you are not interested in the notes, then you don't have to read it.

And not a single bit of it proves your contention that actual inaccurate data was produced.

683 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:44:22pm

re: #625 Walter L. Newton

As a programmer, this is very clear to me.

Every read codinghorror or the daily wtf? Programmers have to deal with ancient Lovecraftian databases of the old ones that shall not be awakened every day. It's a common thing and I'm willing to bet pretty much every large dataset used for research purposes has inaccuracies introduced because of programmer error.

The question is if the error is enough to make any difference?

To me this just sounds like a taking on a new job complaining about his predecessor's shitty coding skills. It happens all the time.

684 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:44:24pm

re: #677 Cato the Elder

Tell that to Pam.

But....but, what about Sarah?!?!
;)

685 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:44:59pm

re: #679 Mich-again

Didn't Judith Miller, who went to jail for Scooter Libby, work for the NYT? (Hint: Yes)

686 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:45:10pm

re: #678 Varek Raith

You know, I pay Comcast up the wazoo for high speed internet, the least they could do is keep it freaking stable.
Ahem, excuse me.
/rant

Can you get DirecTV? Satellite comm is very reliable.

687 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:45:19pm

I'm going to head off to bed in a few minutes, Have to be up at 5:00 am. Long five days of lugging furniture coming up.

And Charles, thanks for letting me post that.

688 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:45:20pm

re: #681 Floral Giraffe

Regardless of what you choose to do.
I hope you enjoy it to the fullest!
And, Haku, too.

Love ya, Flo, you are always so sweet!

689 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:45:36pm

re: #684 Varek Raith

But...but, what about Sarah?!?!
;)

She's inflatable, OR deflatable.
It depends...

690 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:45:42pm

re: #673 albusteve

I am especially nutty when it comes to cars...I love cars...with big engines that go fast and burn alot of gas...I'm like notGreen when it comes to vintage cars...

Vintage cars are green. Production of a car requires about as much fossil energy as it will burn in its normal lifetime. My 1973 truck has prevented the production of about five replacement trucks.

691 jaunte  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:45:55pm

re: #679 Mich-again

It's good to see them helping a little with operational security.

692 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:46:07pm

re: #675 Dark_Falcon

I'm especially hard on those who run old buildings down. The good news is that Chicago has become hard on such folks too. One of the good things Richard M. Daley has done has been to see to it that a number of landmark building were designated as such and they are then held to maintenance standards.

indeed and you can see it there...Denver has also done a wonderful job of keeping the old stuff around, it makes for a very stylish and historic downtown...of course Chicago has no rival there

693 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:46:45pm

re: #688 reine.de.tout

Love ya, Flo, you are always so sweet!

Momma always said "honey'll get you more than vinegar"!
HI Reine!
*waves*

694 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:47:17pm

re: #686 Dark_Falcon

Can you get DirecTV? Satellite comm is very reliable.

Possibly, haven't looked into DTV. Didn't know they offered interent... Sigh.

695 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:47:28pm

re: #578 Cato the Elder

What are we talking about?

(Just got back from a long phone call with my old girlfriend (rich, too!) who wants me to move to Mexico with her.)

Maybe you'll be neighbors with expatriate curmudgeon Fred Reed. Don't let him lie to you!

//

696 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:47:40pm

re: #682 Charles

And not a single bit of it proves your contention that actual inaccurate data was produced.

Of course I disagree, but thanks for letting me publish the essay. And East Anglia is concerned enough to open an investigation...

Sir Muir said the results of his inquiry would be published but warned that it would not ''audit the [unit's] scientific conclusions", only the scientists' behaviour and how they followed data procedures.

This is good in my opinion.

697 avanti  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:47:51pm

re: #662 Walter L. Newton

BAD DATA REPLACED (Ian Harris, 23 May 2002)

Again, we have a circular argument. I agree that there was bad data, some problems with the program and the rest. What we don't know is what was corrected, what stayed in, and what if any effect it had on the big picture.

It's as if you hacked a e-mail from me bitching about someone installing a wrong valve spring in one of my Studebakers. Did I later replace it with the correct one, or did the wrong one work just fine ? It may be a unknowable fact.

698 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:48:13pm

re: #678 Varek Raith

You know, I pay Comcast up the wazoo for high speed internet, the least they could do is keep it freaking stable.
Ahem, excuse me.
/rant

I pay $82 a month for high speed cable and 200 and some TV channels here in ABQ...and rarely have a slowdown

699 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:48:26pm

re: #697 avanti

an unknown unknown?

700 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:48:48pm

re: #696 Walter L. Newton

it might be politically motivated, y'know >>

701 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:48:55pm

re: #693 Floral Giraffe

Momma always said "honey'll get you more than vinegar"!
HI Reine!
*waves*

Momma was right.
*waves back*

702 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:49:02pm

re: #699 windsagio

an unknown unknown?

Rumsfeld...?
/

703 prairiefire  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:49:23pm

re: #671 Cato the Elder

You could grow old together. There's a lot to be said for companionship.

704 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:49:58pm

re: #692 albusteve

indeed and you can see it there...Denver has also done a wonderful job of keeping the old stuff around, it makes for a very stylish and historic downtown...of course Chicago has no rival there

No, indeed. Chicago has some truly wonderful architecture.

705 Doug Wild  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:50:01pm

As a newbie, I have a few questions, but do not wish to derail this thread. I have spent a lot of time at NewsBusters and so I am surmising you guys are smarter, younger and more connected. I am definitely smart, not young and not really connected. I agree with the threads on your site I read today, but generally disagree with the “conservative” platform. I am not a troll and despite the need at NewsBusters to humiliate “Dougie Poo,” I am up for an honest discussion.

Here are my initial questions.

Do you support the neo-con’s wars for oil?

Do you really hate government programs to help the poor?

To be honest, I am not up to the discussion tonight, but would enjoy challenging conversations in the future. I was denied typing in high school as a college-bound student, so I am slower than most of you. Last question: where are your women? I have found more common ground with conservative women than their gender counterparts.

Doug Wild

706 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:50:24pm

re: #702 Varek Raith

you know, I don't actually know how he actually used the line (or hell, IF he actually used it). I just know it was funny, and was used wonderfully here:

707 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:50:28pm

re: #697 avanti

Again, we have a circular argument. I agree that there was bad data, some problems with the program and the rest. What we don't know is what was corrected, what stayed in, and what if any effect it had on the big picture.

It's as if you hacked a e-mail from me bitching about someone installing a wrong valve spring in one of my Studebakers. Did I later replace it with the correct one, or did the wrong one work just fine ? It may be a unknowable fact.

Nothing in my essay was taken from a single hacked email. I have said this 4 or 5 times already. My information was taken from a 324 page narrative by the programmer Ian Harris. He wrote the diary from 2006 to about Dec. 2009.

If you want the bigger picture, read his whole document, I posted links to it above.

708 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:50:52pm

re: #706 windsagio

warning: The above youtube clip is arguably highly offensive.

709 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:51:58pm

re: #681 Floral Giraffe

Regardless of what you choose to do.
I hope you enjoy it to the fullest!
And, Haku, too.

Haku is good, wherever we go. Remember, I scooped him off the streets of Baltimore when he was a puppy and took him to the puppy ICU. They said he wouldn't live.

Fooled them, he did.

But this is the thing: He doesn't like humidity. Heat, fine. He's a Korean dog. And I'm a Michigan boy.

Give me a high desert and 110, we'll be fine.

710 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:52:04pm

re: #578 Cato the Elder

What are we talking about?

(Just got back from a long phone call with my old girlfriend (rich, too!) who wants me to move to Mexico with her.)

Just, well, maybe you should re-read the John D. MacDonald novels starring Travis McGee, before you make any commitments...
As a thought..

711 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:52:24pm

re: #705 Doug Wild

yikes!...hate the govt for helping the poor?...oil wars?
I"ll check that to the next person

712 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:52:28pm

re: #706 windsagio

you know, I don't actually know how he actually used the line (or hell, IF he actually used it). I just know it was funny, and was used wonderfully here:


[Video]

713 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:52:35pm

re: #705 Doug Wild

I fixing to go to bed in a few minutes, but I will say this... NEWSBUSTERS is no better than a fiction magazine.

If you are getting your information from them, you are getting lied to on a daily basis.

By the way, I'm 57, and many of the Lizards on this thread are certainly older than 40.

714 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:52:55pm

re: #703 prairiefire

You could grow old together. There's a lot to be said for companionship.

a very good point

715 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:53:09pm

re: #705 Doug Wild

wars for oil...where the hell is the oil then?
got no problem helping the less fortunate.

716 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:53:11pm

re: #686 Dark_Falcon

Can you get DirecTV? Satellite comm is very reliable.

Until the Iranians shoot up their next satellite and do an EMP on our asses.

717 avanti  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:53:22pm

re: #687 Walter L. Newton

I'm going to head off to bed in a few minutes, Have to be up at 5:00 am. Long five days of lugging furniture coming up.

And Charles, thanks for letting me post that.

To be clear, I think the issue with Charles was using cherry picked information that was obtained illegally. I only point that out so folks don't think we normally need to clear topics with the head Lizard.

718 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:53:35pm

re: #705 Doug Wild

As a newbie, I have a few questions, but do not wish to derail this thread. I have spent a lot of time at NewsBusters and so I am surmising you guys are smarter, younger and more connected. I am definitely smart, not young and not really connected. I agree with the threads on your site I read today, but generally disagree with the “conservative” platform. I am not a troll and despite the need at NewsBusters to humiliate “Dougie Poo,” I am up for an honest discussion.

Here are my initial questions.

Do you support the neo-con’s wars for oil?

Do you really hate government programs to help the poor?

To be honest, I am not up to the discussion tonight, but would enjoy challenging conversations in the future. I was denied typing in high school as a college-bound student, so I am slower than most of you. Last question: where are your women? I have found more common ground with conservative women than their gender counterparts.

Doug Wild

Welcome.

There is no "you". We would give a hundred answers to your questions.

Our genders are carefully disguised to provide a tense ambiguity.

"Decatur Deb" is not a female.

719 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:53:57pm

re: #705 Doug Wild

As a newbie, I have a few questions, but do not wish to derail this thread. I have spent a lot of time at NewsBusters and so I am surmising you guys are smarter, younger and more connected. I am definitely smart, not young and not really connected. I agree with the threads on your site I read today, but generally disagree with the “conservative” platform. I am not a troll and despite the need at NewsBusters to humiliate “Dougie Poo,” I am up for an honest discussion.

Here are my initial questions.

Do you support the neo-con’s wars for oil?

Do you really hate government programs to help the poor?

To be honest, I am not up to the discussion tonight, but would enjoy challenging conversations in the future. I was denied typing in high school as a college-bound student, so I am slower than most of you. Last question: where are your women? I have found more common ground with conservative women than their gender counterparts.

Doug Wild

Are you out of your fucking mind?

I AM NO ONE'S WOMAN.

720 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:54:03pm

re: #712 Varek Raith

Now I know!

(or know-know)

721 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:54:09pm

re: #709 Cato the Elder

Joshua Tree, except Anza Borrego is SO much prettier.
Go for the Palm Canyons.
BEWARE the Cholla!
Needle nose pliers in the glove box, help!

722 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:54:22pm

re: #705 Doug Wild

Says he's not a troll but opens with inflammatory questions. I'm bringing another bag of charcoal over to the grill.

723 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:54:45pm

re: #705 Doug Wild

I have trouble believing that this post is real.

724 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:54:47pm

re: #718 Decatur Deb

Welcome.

There is no "you". We would give a hundred answers to your questions.

Our genders are carefully disguised to provide a tense ambiguity.

"Decatur Deb" is not a female.

albusteve is a very hot chick

725 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:54:47pm

re: #705 Doug Wild

As a newbie, I have a few questions, but do not wish to derail this thread. I have spent a lot of time at NewsBusters and so I am surmising you guys are smarter, younger and more connected. I am definitely smart, not young and not really connected. I agree with the threads on your site I read today, but generally disagree with the “conservative” platform. I am not a troll and despite the need at NewsBusters to humiliate “Dougie Poo,” I am up for an honest discussion.

Here are my initial questions.

Do you support the neo-con’s wars for oil?

Do you really hate government programs to help the poor?

To be honest, I am not up to the discussion tonight, but would enjoy challenging conversations in the future. I was denied typing in high school as a college-bound student, so I am slower than most of you. Last question: where are your women? I have found more common ground with conservative women than their gender counterparts.

Doug Wild

Do you think that we women belong to ANYONE?

726 jaunte  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:54:48pm

Lol. 'do not wish to derail this thread...'

727 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:54:58pm

re: #717 avanti

To be clear, I think the issue with Charles was using cherry picked information that was obtained illegally. I only point that out so folks don't think we normally need to clear topics with the head Lizard.

And I pointed that all out in the very beginning of my essay. And yes, I would say I think if you are going to use Charles blog to post almost 9 pages of a document, you maybe should clear it with him, no matter what the material is. My opinion.

728 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:55:04pm

re: #705 Doug Wild

As a newbie, I have a few questions, but do not wish to derail this thread. I have spent a lot of time at NewsBusters and so I am surmising you guys are smarter, younger and more connected. I am definitely smart, not young and not really connected. I agree with the threads on your site I read today, but generally disagree with the “conservative” platform. I am not a troll and despite the need at NewsBusters to humiliate “Dougie Poo,” I am up for an honest discussion.

Here are my initial questions.

Do you support the neo-con’s wars for oil?

Do you really hate government programs to help the poor?

To be honest, I am not up to the discussion tonight, but would enjoy challenging conversations in the future. I was denied typing in high school as a college-bound student, so I am slower than most of you. Last question: where are your women? I have found more common ground with conservative women than their gender counterparts.

Doug Wild

Dude, I'm a liberal and I find this painful to read....

Seriously, you may want to head down to your local art store and pick up some thinner brushes to paint with...

729 prairiefire  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:55:07pm

re: #705 Doug Wild

Where are our women? Women? Doug's asking after you.

730 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:55:10pm

re: #722 Dark_Falcon

jinx!

731 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:55:15pm

re: #713 Walter L. Newton

I fixing to go to bed in a few minutes, but I will say this... NEWSBUSTERS is no better than a fiction magazine.

If you are getting your information from them, you are getting lied to on a daily basis.

By the way, I'm 57, and many of the Lizards on this thread are certainly older than 40.

And SMARTER than 110. Way smarter. Mostly!

732 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:55:16pm

re: #724 albusteve

albusteve is a very hot chick

In which parallel universe???

733 jaunte  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:55:17pm

re: #724 albusteve

Red or green?

734 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:55:43pm

Remember that there is no code faster than no code.
-- Taligent's Guide to Designing Programs

More good code has been written in languages denounced as "bad'' than
in languages proclaimed "wonderful'' -- much more.
-- Bjarne Stroustrup, "The Design and Evolution of C++" (1994)

Smart data structures and dumb code works alot better than the other
way around.
-- Eric S. Raymond, "The Cathedral and the Bazaar"

It's hard to read through a book on the principles of magic without
glancing at the cover periodically to make sure it isn't a book on
software design.
-- Bruce Tognazzini

Fools ignore complexity; pragmatists suffer it; experts avoid it;
geniuses remove it.
-- Alan Perlis

Computer Science is the only discipline in which we view adding a new
wing to a building as being maintenance.
-- Jim Horning

Programming is similar to a game of golf. The point is not getting the
ball in the hole but how many strokes it takes.
-- H. Mills

Walking on water and developing software from a specification are easy
if both are frozen.
-- Edward V. Berard


If you cannot grok the overall structure of a program while taking a
shower, you are not ready to code it.
-- Richard Pattis

If you are not an open-source enthusiast at 20, you have no heart. If
you are still an open-source enthusiast at 30, you're an idiot.
-- Cedric Beust

735 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:55:43pm

re: #722 Dark_Falcon

Says he's not a troll but opens with inflammatory questions. I'm bringing another bag of charcoal over to the grill.

In Ireland they would say "You're a fast man with the spit".

736 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:55:52pm

re: #732 Varek Raith

I believe it... it all makes sense now!

737 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:56:14pm

re: #725 MandyManners

Do you think that we women belong to ANYONE?

well...let's not be hasty

738 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:56:14pm

re: #719 MandyManners

Are you out of your fucking mind?

I AM NO ONE'S WOMAN.

Now you've done Doug. Mandy is the lizard you don't want mess with. She's as smart as me, but even fiercer.

739 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:56:31pm

re: #719 MandyManners

Are you out of your fucking mind?

I AM NO ONE'S WOMAN.

Liar. You are YOUR OWN WOMAN, Mandy.

740 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:56:38pm

re: #729 prairiefire

don't egg on mandy.....she's gonna flatten this guy as it is....

741 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:56:39pm

Okay Doug. Figure me for one of the conservatives here. I'm up for answering your provocative questions.

Here are my initial questions. At your convenience.

Do you support the neo-con’s wars for oil?
Do you really hate government programs to help the poor?

742 jaunte  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:56:44pm

re: #738 Dark_Falcon

AND, she has a rope.

743 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:57:09pm

ALL OF YOUR BROADS ARE BELONG TO US1

744 avanti  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:57:19pm

re: #707 Walter L. Newton

Nothing in my essay was taken from a single hacked email. I have said this 4 or 5 times already. My information was taken from a 324 page narrative by the programmer Ian Harris. He wrote the diary from 2006 to about Dec. 2009.

If you want the bigger picture, read his whole document, I posted links to it above.

IMHO, my analogy still stands because the e-mails were cherry picked to only show potentially negative inferences.

745 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:57:26pm

re: #734 The Sanity Inspector

Favorited.

746 keloyd  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:57:53pm

re: #725 MandyManners

Do you think that we women belong to ANYONE?


Hey Doug, I think Mandy is telling you she is available...or would be if we let the noobs near our women.

747 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:57:54pm

re: #743 albusteve

ALL OF YOUR BROADS ARE BELONG TO US1

Down, boy, down!
/

748 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:58:11pm

re: #743 albusteve

ALL OF YOUR BROADS ARE BELONG TO US1

You Moonbats have no escape, make your time!!

Ha ha ha!!

749 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:58:19pm

re: #695 The Sanity Inspector

Maybe you'll be neighbors with expatriate curmudgeon Fred Reed. Don't let him lie to you!

//

Heh. He of "How to Date Young Women" infamy?

I ghost-wrote that book.

750 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:58:20pm

re: #705 Doug Wild

Despite being more or less a liberal I don't believe we've fought any wars for oil. I think we've fought some wars in oil-rich areas for other reasons and oil companies made deals with the defense department to make sure they could make every penny off it they could. I don't think our foreign policy is that crass.

I support government programs to help the poor and their expansion. This includes but is not limited to single payer health care, welfare, school free lunch programs, financial aide for college, early childhood education, family planning initiatives, and job training programs.

The women are barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen.

751 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:58:50pm

re: #718 Decatur Deb

Welcome.

There is no "you". We would give a hundred answers to your questions.

Our genders are carefully disguised to provide a tense ambiguity.

"Decatur Deb" is not a female.

And, not all of us are young.

752 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:59:00pm

re: #750 Conservative Moonbat

*psst*Its always dangerous to say that, but I'm betting its younglib again~

753 Charles Johnson  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:59:00pm

re: #696 Walter L. Newton

Of course I disagree, but thanks for letting me publish the essay. And East Anglia is concerned enough to open an investigation...

Sir Muir said the results of his inquiry would be published but warned that it would not ''audit the [unit's] scientific conclusions", only the scientists' behaviour and how they followed data procedures.

This is good in my opinion.

You haven't proven that incorrect data was produced. That's a simple fact. I respect your effort, and the fact that you followed through and posted it, but you didn't do what you said you would do.

754 Mich-again  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:59:14pm

re: #685 windsagio

The NYT printed leaked military information during the last administration. Now they are letting the WH tell them when military stories should be printed. I wonder why the change of heart?

755 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:59:20pm

re: #697 avanti

It's as if you hacked a e-mail from me bitching about someone installing a wrong valve spring in one of my Studebakers. Did I later replace it with the correct one, or did the wrong one work just fine ? It may be a unknowable fact.

Can you not see that the credibility of the mechanic, who repeatedly installed wrong valve springs for many years, had been significantly compromised?

756 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:59:24pm

re: #748 Dark_Falcon

You Moonbats have no escape, make your time!!

Ha ha ha!!

You are on the way to destruction!

757 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 7:59:52pm

re: #746 keloyd

Hey Doug, I think Mandy is telling you she is available...or would be if we let the noobs near our women.

Oh, dear.

I'm doing my best to play along with what I supposes is a mocking of that assholish post.

I'll ding you up.

758 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:00:10pm

re: #744 avanti

IMHO, my analogy still stands because the e-mails were cherry picked to only show potentially negative inferences.

So, are you saying I cherry picked Ian Harris' narrative? In that case, why would I post a link to his full complete document? If I was cherry picking, I certainly wouldn't want to make it easier for you to follow up looking over potentially damaging material that would disprove my points.

The hacked email have nothing to do with this discussion.

759 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:00:21pm

re: #748 Dark_Falcon

You Moonbats have no escape, make your time!!

Ha ha ha!!

what a nerk...he types slow because he has one hand down his pants

760 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:01:01pm

Night.

761 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:01:06pm

re: #758 Walter L. Newton

just curious walter, where did the PDF come from? I missed that somewhere in here.

Also, its an aside at best to jump on the fact that he mentioned the emails :P

762 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:01:31pm

re: #756 Varek Raith

You are on the way to destruction!

That photo looks like its from GenCon.

763 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:01:41pm

re: #759 albusteve

one hand in his pants, one on the mouse... dare I ask what's being used to type?

764 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:02:07pm

re: #752 windsagio

*psst*Its always dangerous to say that, but I'm betting its younglib again~

If so, he does a much more convincing Conservative than Liberal....

765 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:02:58pm

re: #725 MandyManners

Do you think that we women belong to ANYONE?

MY women are all on my iPod.

The realy-life wymyn I know are all doin' they're thangs.

766 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:02:59pm

re: #758 Walter L. Newton

So, are you saying I cherry picked Ian Harris' narrative? In that case, why would I post a link to his full complete document? If I was cherry picking, I certainly wouldn't want to make it easier for you to follow up looking over potentially damaging material that would disprove my points.

The hacked email have nothing to do with this discussion.


what'd I tell you

767 Mich-again  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:03:01pm

re: #690 Decatur Deb

Vintage cars are green. Production of a car requires about as much fossil energy as it will burn in its normal lifetime. My 1973 truck has prevented the production of about five replacement trucks.


Huh? any data for that claim? I know it takes about $100 worth of electricity and natural gas to assemble a car or truck. Some more for the parts that go into it. Saying it takes as much energy to build as it will burn it its lifetime is off base by orders of magnitude.

768 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:03:02pm

re: #760 Walter L. Newton

Night.

Goodnight, Walter. You're a gentleman and scholar.

769 keloyd  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:03:21pm

re: #757 MandyManners

We usually need pretty good secret decoder rings to know when a poster is serious and when it is an attempt at dry humor, based on a literal reading of your posts, but not as good as the 'all your base are belong to us' riff. You called it right!

770 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:04:01pm

re: #752 windsagio

*psst*Its always dangerous to say that, but I'm betting its younglib again~

Post reccommended to Charles. That's a good theory.

771 avanti  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:04:02pm

re: #755 Spare O'Lake

Can you not see that the credibility of the mechanic, who repeatedly installed wrong valve springs for many years, had been significantly compromised?

In this case, the mechanic was pissed about the wrong springs and set out to correct it. To further abuse the analogy, we have no proof the engine did not run like a top in the end.

772 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:04:07pm

re: #764 jamesfirecat

Its someone familiar with LGF anyways... The "Whare are your women" is an amazing combination of something somebody wouldn't normally say, and something absolutely guaranteed to set the blog off in one fell swoop.

773 solomonpanting  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:04:47pm

re: #759 albusteve

what a nerk...he types slow because he has one hand down his pants

Why do you think some, uh, typists, are hunt 'n peckers?

774 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:04:53pm

re: #770 Dark_Falcon

I do like how we can always come together in the end ;)


/well almost always :p

775 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:05:10pm

re: #735 Decatur Deb

In Ireland they would say "You're a fast man with the spit".

I can spit faster than any homeboy in Baltimore.

776 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:05:24pm

re: #774 windsagio

I do like how we can always come together in the end ;)

/well almost always :p

Group hug!

777 palomino  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:05:26pm

re: #98 albusteve

I don't consider J Wright and BOs Chicago background a dead horse at all...his seedy friends and strong arm politics define who he is...people have short memories...BO was made, otherwise there is simply nothing to him...this is why I despise the fools that voted for him

You despise the 70 million who voted for Obama? That's a lot of hatred to carry around, but if anyone can handle that, it's you.

All presidents are "made", foolish to think otherwise. Always some machine behind them. And they ALL have seedy friends--JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Clinton, Carter, Bush, Obama, even Reagan--all have consorted with sleazeballs.

You've got ODS, among other things.

778 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:05:29pm

re: #773 solomonpanting

oh damn, I just got the pun in that.


ARRRGH!

779 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:05:36pm

re: #773 solomonpanting

Why do you think some, uh, typists, are hunt 'n peckers?

there you have it...how's it going bro?

780 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:05:54pm

re: #739 Floral Giraffe

Liar. You are YOUR OWN WOMAN, Mandy.

At least she didn't say "Noone's woman"!

781 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:06:18pm

re: #772 windsagio

Its someone familiar with LGF anyways... The "Whare are your women" is an amazing combination of something somebody wouldn't normally say, and something absolutely guaranteed to set the blog off in one fell swoop.

I'm just saying that "Mosh" managed to get some support from the conservatives on the site, where as this guy makes me feel angry and bitter as a liberal....

So like I said, he did a better job as passing for a reasonable conservative than he does for a liberal....

782 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:06:47pm

re: #780 Cato the Elder

At least she didn't say "Noone's woman"!

No won nows what your talking a bout.

783 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:06:55pm

re: #695 The Sanity Inspector

Maybe you'll be neighbors with expatriate curmudgeon Fred Reed. Don't let him lie to you!

//

That was hilarious!

784 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:07:29pm

re: #767 Mich-again

Huh? any data for that claim? I know it takes about $100 worth of electricity and natural gas to assemble a car or truck. Some more for the parts that go into it. Saying it takes as much energy to build as it will burn it its lifetime is off base by orders of magnitude.

I'll dig it out over the next day or so. Are you counting the energy cost of mining and refining steel/aluminum/exotics? (It was from a Brit car site, and might be suspect.)

785 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:07:58pm

re: #781 jamesfirecat

well if the troll is basically conservative, they'd be able to fake a particular flavor more easily.

786 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:08:34pm

re: #785 windsagio

also, I'd put money up that that comment was specifically designed to piss Mandy off. Being an obnoxious lefty just adds to that.

787 keloyd  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:08:34pm

How can we be calmly debating to whom our women belong when Kim Jong Il Is sneaking into congress(!)
I'z in yer congeress, votin for kimchi

788 JohninLondon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:08:38pm

I tried reading the Harry_read_me file when it was released.

It sounded like one long cry of anguish by Mr Harris about how the CRU had been handling data from the start of the 1990s until he was put on the work in 2006. The impression overall was that things were in a very serious mess. And a mess that took him month after month after month to sort out - 3 years in all. And even then he concedes that not everything is OK.

At the very least, that suggests that the output of CRU on the TS series was unreliable for about 15 years. And it is a reasonable surmise that the same lack of discipline could have applied applied to other handling of data at CRU, to other CRU outputs.

How unreliable ? We don't know. Possibly unknowable. But obviously the work of the CRU has not been replicable by other parties over those years.

If the procedures for data handling were a serious mess, it seems to me to be axiomatic that errors were output. How serious - we don't know. But it looks impossible to believe that the CRU output was not flawed, that it contained no errors.

The accountancy analogy may help. Harris was doing a post-audit. He found the stuff in a real mess. He spent 3 years trying to sort out just one part of it. Who could trust fully the earlier figures ?

789 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:09:11pm

re: #777 palomino

You despise the 70 million who voted for Obama? That's a lot of hatred to carry around, but if anyone can handle that, it's you.

All presidents are "made", foolish to think otherwise. Always some machine behind them. And they ALL have seedy friends--JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Clinton, Carter, Bush, Obama, even Reagan--all have consorted with sleazeballs.

You've got ODS, among other things.

I don't hate them, you made that up...I despise their stupidity, like children gone awry...as for the ODS, leftists made up that term as well, so I consider the source and laugh myself onward...I don't give a shit what anybody thinks, including you....this is a news blog, not a shrinks sofa

790 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:09:41pm

re: #788 JohninLondon

the problem is we can't deny them either... And apparently, the CRU figures match other organizations (got that from Obdi, don't know exactly where he got it).

791 solomonpanting  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:09:58pm

re: #779 albusteve

there you have it...how's it going bro?

Same as usual, only more so.
Hope you're well.

792 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:10:02pm

re: #705 Doug Wild

As a newbie, I have a few questions, but do not wish to derail this thread. I have spent a lot of time at NewsBusters and so I am surmising you guys are smarter, younger and more connected. I am definitely smart, not young and not really connected. I agree with the threads on your site I read today, but generally disagree with the “conservative” platform. I am not a troll and despite the need at NewsBusters to humiliate “Dougie Poo,” I am up for an honest discussion.

Here are my initial questions.

Do you support the neo-con’s wars for oil?

Do you really hate government programs to help the poor?

To be honest, I am not up to the discussion tonight, but would enjoy challenging conversations in the future. I was denied typing in high school as a college-bound student, so I am slower than most of you. Last question: where are your women? I have found more common ground with conservative women than their gender counterparts.

Doug Wild

oh shit, it's a bomb.

*reads replies*
*eats popcorn*

793 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:10:34pm

re: #791 solomonpanting

Same as usual, only more so.
Hope you're well.

I am...and the same to you

794 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:10:45pm

re: #776 Varek Raith

Group hug!

Not inhaling if I land next to the hippies...

795 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:11:26pm

re: #785 windsagio

well if the troll is basically conservative, they'd be able to fake a particular flavor more easily.

Well then he should have stuck with what he does best....

Even if its getting kicked off LGF for the 5th time in a row....

796 Doug Wild  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:11:36pm

re: #719 MandyManners

Excellent. I like you guys already. Although we don't agree, I will do my best to be respectful.

Doug Wild

797 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:12:04pm

re: #785 windsagio

Coming in to start trouble is more a mark of a wingnut than anything else.

798 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:12:13pm

re: #794 The Sanity Inspector

Not inhaling if I land next to the hippies...

You can exhale. Just don't inhale.

799 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:12:18pm

re: #796 Doug Wild

Hmmm....

800 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:12:24pm

re: #792 Vambo

oh shit, it's a bomb.

*reads replies*
*eats popcorn*

Nope, just a dumb attempt at trolling. Troll got its butt beaten and sent on its way.

801 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:12:40pm

where are your wu-mons?....show me your wu-mons

802 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:13:26pm

re: #801 albusteve

where are your wu-mons?...show me your wu-mons

alien male pick-up line?

803 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:13:30pm

re: #796 Doug Wild

Excellent. I like you guys already. Although we don't agree, I will do my best to be respectful.

Doug Wild

Methinks the laddie doth protest prostrate prostate too much.

804 prairiefire  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:13:45pm

re: #794 The Sanity Inspector

Not inhaling if I land next to the hippies...

Hey! Patchouli/Musk oil smells great!

805 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:14:02pm

re: #803 Cato the Elder

LOL

806 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:14:13pm

re: #801 albusteve

where are your wu-mons?...show me your wu-mons


Since this movie went over so well last night....

807 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:14:19pm

re: #799 Varek Raith

Hmmm...

Bring that CGT array online, Varek. The visible ship is sending friendly messages but I think its towing cloaked troll ships.

808 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:14:20pm

re: #796 Doug Wild

Excellent. I like you guys already. Although we don't agree, I will do my best to be respectful.

Doug Wild

this is boring.

809 Ojoe  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:14:52pm

Only the strong can be gentle.

Good night all.

810 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:15:03pm

re: #806 jamesfirecat

I will always upding that.

811 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:16:21pm

re: #807 Dark_Falcon

Bring that CGT array online, Varek. The visible ship is sending friendly messages but I think its towing cloaked troll ships.

Interdictor cruisers deployed, as well. No escape!

812 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:16:37pm

Kinda weird. Liberals on the internet don't hang at Newsbusters.

Even if you were a liberal who wants to make fun of the wingnuts and taunt them you'd go somewhere else. (RedState, HotAir) or to one of the small blogs: Pammy, Ace, Dan Riehl....

Not that I'd uh, know anything about that. (hums, looks at sky, drags toe bashfully in dirt...)

"Whar the women at!" is classic though.

813 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:16:39pm

re: #807 Dark_Falcon

Bring that CGT array online, Varek. The visible ship is sending friendly messages but I think its towing cloaked troll ships.

I thought that said "CBT"...

note to self, browsing porn and LGF at the same time causes confusion.

814 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:16:51pm

re: #796 Doug Wild

Excellent. I like you guys already. Although we don't agree, I will do my best to be respectful.

Doug Wild

You don't agree that I am no one's woman?

815 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:17:07pm

re: #806 jamesfirecat

Since this movie went over so well last night...

[Video]

Hurry up! At this rate we ain't ever gonna get to Rock Ridge! ;)

816 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:17:38pm

re: #808 Vambo

this is boring.

Who does it think it's kidding. "Although we don't agree"?

Who is this "we"?

There's everything here from Avanti to Zato. What's to agree with?

Pick a subject and start arguing, oder troll dich, you troll.

817 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:17:43pm

re: #813 Vambo

I thought that said "CBT"...

note to self, browsing porn and LGF at the same time causes confusion.

A crystal gravfield trap (CGT) was a rare and expensive type of sensor that used a synthetic crystal grid to detect and identify fluctuations in the local gravity field. They could be blocked by the presence of mass, not being able to detect a ship on the far side of a planet due to its mass.

818 Vambo  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:17:53pm

re: #812 iceweasel

Kinda weird. Liberals on the internet don't hang at Newsbusters.

srsly.

I lasted about a week a Politico. Newsbusters? Hot Air? I'd be banned within minutes.

819 Mich-again  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:18:02pm

re: #784 Decatur Deb
Well it would seem that the customer pays for all the costs that went into making the car when they buy it. And energy is one of the pieces, but not the biggest piece.

820 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:18:21pm

re: #815 Dark_Falcon

Hurry up! At this rate we ain't ever gonna get to Rock Ridge! ;)

Somebody get a s*** load of dimes!

821 simoom  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:18:56pm

re: #597 Walter L. Newton

That was my contention and and Ian Harris' notes prove that.

Walter,

You appear to be making a lot of assumptions as you parse Ian's documentation (attempting to divine context, meaning and consequences). One suggestion that occurs to me is maybe you could try e-mailing him and asking him about some of your hypotheses.

822 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:18:57pm

re: #767 Mich-again

I'm about to crash here. Ping me re: energy on the next car or environmental thread. I'll bookmark some refs.

823 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:19:07pm

Good night LGF.

824 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:19:13pm

re: #818 Vambo

What got you banned at Politico?

825 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:19:25pm

re: #811 Varek Raith

Interdictor cruisers deployed, as well. No escape!

Good. Now just point the cloaked ships out. Once the CGT array spots 'em, my Star Destroyers will punch their lights out. I want to capture trolls for roasting so we'll use ion cannons only for a couple of the troll ships.

826 swamprat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:20:00pm

re: #705 Doug Wild

As a newbie, I have a few questions, but do not wish to derail this thread. I have spent a lot of time at NewsBusters and so I am surmising you guys are smarter, younger and more connected. I am definitely smart, not young and not really connected. I agree with the threads on your site I read today, but generally disagree with the “conservative” platform. I am not a troll and despite the need at NewsBusters to humiliate “Dougie Poo,” I am up for an honest discussion.

Here are my initial questions.

Do you support the neo-con’s wars for oil?

I resent you calling our president a "neo-con" and slandering his motives as commander in chief of our troops.

Do you really hate government programs to help the poor?

No. But force a person to wear a brace or crutch, and he will lose the ability to walk without one.

To be honest, I am not up to the discussion tonight, but would enjoy challenging conversations in the future. I was denied typing in high school as a college-bound student, so I am slower than most of you.

Last question: where are your women?

I have never owned one, but my wife is 4 feet away and my daughter is making a good living after being on record as being the youngest to graduate her college.......thanks for asking.

I have found more common ground with conservative women than their gender counterparts.


Sorry that you find men menacing.

Doug Wild

You seem to be the southern portion of a north bound horse carrying a load of assumptions.

827 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:20:11pm

re: #812 iceweasel

Hello, ice queen!

I'm charged up. Call. (Tried you at 1800, but damn that (vo)icemail!)

828 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:20:30pm

I'm sorry, I have to post another one.


I normally avoid Bush topics, but the way the Boondocks satirized GW always makes me laugh so hard >>

829 palomino  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:21:04pm

re: #381 TampaKnight

You all realize that Fox got popular because they filled the giant void in the media for any right-leaning news and perspective...right?

They wouldn't have been so received if the media was truly balanced like everyone claims it is.

The void was on cable TV...Fox filled it. And then went completely over the top with charlatans like Beck and Hannity.

830 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:21:37pm

re: #818 Vambo

srsly.

I lasted about a week a Politico. Newsbusters? Hot Air? I'd be banned within minutes.

Yeah, and it wouldn't even be fun. Though I have enjoyed driving by some of the wingnut blogs and dropping a few facts on them and asking when they plan to retract whatever lie they're spouting....Naturally they'll claim they're right no matter what (Confederate Wankee, Dan Riehl) or they'll magikally make the inconvenient comment go byebye, and sometimes the whole, hilariously wrong, post (RSM).

hee. Retract? NEVAR!

831 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:21:49pm

I'm out like...something...that's out...???
Night all!

832 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:22:14pm

re: #827 Cato the Elder

Hello, ice queen!

I'm charged up. Call. (Tried you at 1800, but damn that (vo)icemail!)

Ice has a 1-800 number?
DANG!
//

833 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:22:23pm

re: #817 Varek Raith

The CGT was first introduced in Timothy Zahn's The Last Command as the only sensor system capable of detecting a cloaked ship. The New Republic mounted an attack on the Imperial shipyards at Bilbringi to seize the CGT the Empire had deployed to guard the yards.

834 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:23:00pm

re: #827 Cato the Elder

Hello, ice queen!

I'm charged up. Call. (Tried you at 1800, but damn that (vo)icemail!)

Hey cutie!
Eating dinner and watching a documentary. I'm kind of depressed and wouldn't be much fun tonight. :(

835 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:23:21pm

re: #829 palomino

zactly,give your news a right hand spin,and you got the only game in town.

836 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:23:25pm

re: #833 Dark_Falcon

The CGT was first introduced in Timothy Zahn's The Last Command as the only sensor system capable of detecting a cloaked ship. The New Republic mounted an attack on the Imperial shipyards at Bilbringi to seize the CGT the Empire had deployed to guard the yards.

I got a bunch of Star Wars e-books the other day, so yay!
:)
Okay, I'm out now.

837 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:25:08pm

My ghoul appetites won't be needed tonight. 'Nite, all.

838 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:25:58pm

re: #826 swamprat

Do you support the neo-con’s wars for oil?

I resent you calling our president a "neo-con" and slandering his motives as commander in chief of our troops.

And what people who ask that question--non-trollishly--never seem to grasp is that, if oil were so paramount for our foreign policy, we'd have just cut some sordid deals with Saddam, same as France did.

839 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:26:25pm

re: #836 Varek Raith

I got a bunch of Star Wars e-books the other day, so yay!
:)
Okay, I'm out now.

Goodnight, Varek.

840 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:27:06pm

re: #838 The Sanity Inspector

or with Saudi Arabia...

841 Boondock St. Bender  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:27:10pm

same here kids school...snowing...will it be enough to spend another day on the sledding hill with the lil'ones?tune in tomorrow to find out!
g'nite everyone.

842 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:27:34pm

re: #828 windsagio

I'm sorry, I have to post another one.

I normally avoid Bush topics, but the way the Boondocks satirized GW always makes me laugh so hard >>


[Video]

To be fair to Bush I don't think Sadam was that clear about not having WMDs.... or maybe my memory of how this whole mess went down 7 years ago is fuzzy....

843 MandyManners  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:28:11pm

re: #705 Doug Wild

"your women"

Fucking moron.

844 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:28:39pm

re: #842 jamesfirecat

Its not really that McGruder is right, its just the whole tone and the details:

"Drop the weapon!"

"I don't have a weapon, you're thinking of the Korean shop North of here!"

845 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:28:42pm

re: #826 swamprat

As a newbie, I have a few questions, but do not wish to derail this thread. I have spent a lot of time at NewsBusters and so I am surmising you guys are smarter, younger and more connected. I am definitely smart, not young and not really connected. I agree with the threads on your site I read today, but generally disagree with the “conservative” platform. I am not a troll and despite the need at NewsBusters to humiliate “Dougie Poo,” I am up for an honest discussion.

Here are my initial questions.

Do you support the neo-con’s wars for oil?

I resent you calling our president a "neo-con" and slandering his motives as commander in chief of our troops.

Do you really hate government programs to help the poor?

No. But force a person to wear a brace or crutch, and he will lose the ability to walk without one.

To be honest, I am not up to the discussion tonight, but would enjoy challenging conversations in the future. I was denied typing in high school as a college-bound student, so I am slower than most of you.

Last question: where are your women?

I have never owned one, but my wife is 4 feet away and my daughter is making a good living after being on record as being the youngest to graduate her college...thanks for asking.

I have found more common ground with conservative women than their gender counterparts.


Sorry that you find men menacing.

Doug Wild

You seem to be the southern portion of a north bound horse carrying a load of assumptions.

Laughing my ass off.

I don't know about Doug Wild, but the last thing I would brag about on a new-to-me blog would be not being connected.

I am connected six ways to Kevin Bacon. I own a ranch in Arizona, a penthouse in in Seattle, and season tickets to the Bregenz Opera. If you fuck with my dog's chew toy, you'll be fed to my pet piranhas. Don't even think about looking lustily at my liberal girlfriends. Your balls will be Eggs Benedict at the Vatican. My conservative girlfriends? They'll feed you lovingly to my 150-year-old koi after passing you through a ricer. Without shooting you first.

That, if you want to make a splash as a troll, is how you do it, Doug.

846 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:29:59pm

re: #null windsagio

or with Saudi Arabia...

As bad as Saudia is, Saddam was worse. There's a not-so-fine line where realpolitik shades over into outright abandonment of principles. It was especially unpretty seeing the homeland of the Declaration of the Rights of Man go that route.

847 Racer X  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:30:01pm

Neocon war for oil.

Heh.

We could have taken every drop of oil from the sands of Iraq and not lost one American soldier.

If that was all we really wanted.

848 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:30:03pm

re: #834 iceweasel

Hey cutie!
Eating dinner and watching a documentary. I'm kind of depressed and wouldn't be much fun tonight. :(

Step AWAY from the veggie drier. And the cutting board. THERE ARE ONLY SO MANY RED PEPPERS you can cut & dry yourself!
Please, step away.

(Feel better!)

849 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:30:04pm

re: #834 iceweasel

Hey cutie!
Eating dinner and watching a documentary. I'm kind of depressed and wouldn't be much fun tonight. :(

That's what documentaries do for you. Try a shoot-'em-up.

850 palomino  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:30:16pm

re: #789 albusteve

Ironic that you go on about Americans' short memories and then deny something you wrote an hour ago, namely that you despise Obama voters.

Kudos on dishing out more hatred and hostility than anyone else at LGF.

851 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:30:49pm

re: #844 windsagio

Its not really that McGruder is right, its just the whole tone and the details:

That I won't deny.

And there there was Jon Stewart looking at our current global position.

"I think given that we've invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, we're either going to invade Iran, or they'll have to take Whoppie Goldberg to block....

852 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:31:04pm

re: #843 MandyManners

re: #845 Cato the Elder

It a pity we can't simply hand trolls over to you two. Watching you two rip on a troll is pure gold. It's always a lovely sight watching a jerk get cut back to size.

853 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:31:19pm

re: #847 Racer X

Neocon war for oil.

Heh.

We could have taken every drop of oil from the sands of Iraq and not lost one American soldier.

If that was all we really wanted.

and we still can...if we refuse to find our own, we have choices....hahaha!

854 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:31:53pm

re: #847 Racer X

Neocon war for oil.

Heh.

We could have taken every drop of oil from the sands of Iraq and not lost one American soldier.

If that was all we really wanted.

You mean the new Drill & Suck tank is ready for operation?

855 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:32:12pm

re: #846 The Sanity Inspector

I've gotta be upfront, I just really really hate Saudi Arabia. Its almost irrational.


I do think that the only reason they didn't pull the crap Saddam did is because they have their people pretty much entirely under control, and don't need to do any of that stuff.

856 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:32:31pm

re: #852 Dark_Falcon

re: #845 Cato the Elder

It a pity we can't simply hand trolls over to you two. Watching you two rip on a troll is pure gold. It's always a lovely sight watching a jerk get cut back to size.

nerk, not jerk...one hand down his pants

857 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:33:20pm

re: #850 palomino

Downding. Don't attack steve like that. He's not a hater of people, just a hater of big, intrusive government. LGF has a lot of people like that.

858 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:33:32pm

re: #854 jamesfirecat

You mean the new Drill & Suck tank is ready for operation?

He means we could have ended this with a squadron of B-52s and some Windex.

859 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:33:52pm

re: #857 Dark_Falcon

ok thats just not right. The guy can be fun, but he's a classic freakin' hater.

860 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:33:52pm

re: #855 windsagio

I've gotta be upfront, I just really really hate Saudi Arabia. Its almost irrational.


I do think that the only reason they didn't pull the crap Saddam did is because they have their people pretty much entirely under control, and don't need to do any of that stuff.

Why do you feel this way?

861 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:33:58pm

re: #855 windsagio

I've gotta be upfront, I just really really hate Saudi Arabia. Its almost irrational.

I do think that the only reason they didn't pull the crap Saddam did is because they have their people pretty much entirely under control, and don't need to do any of that stuff.

it called SDS

862 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:34:09pm

re: #860 Floral Giraffe

which part, the first or the second?

863 jaunte  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:34:22pm

Venezuela continues its descent:
Venezuela's Chavez seizes French-owned retailer

Government inspectors accompanied by soldiers have temporarily shut down more than 1,000 businesses this month, including Exito's six stores in Venezuela, accusing them of improperly raising prices. Authorities took over management of Exito's stores Tuesday.
864 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:34:54pm

I swear, if eau de dipshit could get me high, I'd be flying with Lyra and her golden compass right now.

865 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:35:08pm

re: #856 albusteve

nerk, not jerk...one hand down his pants

He must be a masochist then, seeing as how he enjoys having us whip his ass. Probably needs the whipping to get off.

866 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:35:18pm

re: #859 windsagio

ok thats just not right. The guy can be fun, but he's a classic freakin' hater.

He's a respected member of LGF, who is mostly very civil.
And you are?

867 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:35:18pm

re: #858 The Sanity Inspector

He means we could have ended this with a squadron of B-52s and some Windex.

Damn it, when are we gonna be able to have a tank that drill a mile or more down below the surface of the earth and suck up their entire oil supply without them ever realizing we've done it?

868 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:35:43pm

re: #862 windsagio

which part, the first or the second?

Yes.

869 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:35:54pm

re: #850 palomino

Ironic that you go on about Americans' short memories and then deny something you wrote an hour ago, namely that you despise Obama voters.

Kudos on dishing out more hatred and hostility than anyone else at LGF.

hate!
hostility!
more than anyone!

top that

870 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:36:01pm

re: #866 Floral Giraffe

He's a respected member of LGF, who is mostly very civil.

Bolded for emphasis.

also, I just crapped myself.


I enjoy his act, but you're just not seeing.

871 Mich-again  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:36:27pm

Wouldn't it be easier for those shadowy evil neocons just to go grab Canada and Mexico's oil and for that matter, all that oil stuck in the ground in the USA in areas where drilling is illegal for now and just let Europe and Japan worry about the oil in the ME.

What GWB and the neocons did in the ME was to kick over the tables and say F* the status quo that every American president in modern times before him worked so hard to preserve.

872 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:37:17pm

re: #859 windsagio

ok thats just not right. The guy can be fun, but he's a classic freakin' hater.

classic hater!
not some new neo hater

I want a marble staue

873 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:37:28pm

BTW, until we see more of DW, he doesn't even sound like a lib to me but like someone pretending to be (what he thinks is) a 'lib'.

Not to say he's on the right, either. Probably neither. It's just kinda weird to throw out 'neocon war for oil' and 'whyfore u all hate poor peepul?'

Sounds like someone faking to me. Then again, Newsbusters is a pretty bad site, so...

874 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:37:39pm

re: #864 Cato the Elder

I swear, if eau de dipshit could get me high, I'd be flying with Lyra and her golden compass right now.

Share? Not the eau de dipshit ( I prefer eau de dipstick) but the flying with Lyra & the golden compass. Are you headed to Cabo? It's great this time of year!

875 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:37:45pm

re: #863 jaunte

Venezuela continues its descent:
Venezuela's Chavez seizes French-owned retailer

I think its about time France sent Chavez a message. How about naming a smelly cheese after that stinkbomb?

876 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:37:51pm

re: #794 The Sanity Inspector

Not inhaling if I land next to the hippies...

Should you pass out, who would you like us lizards to send in to revive you?

877 reine.de.tout  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:38:01pm
878 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:38:30pm

re: #865 Dark_Falcon

He must be a masochist then, seeing as how he enjoys having us whip his ass. Probably needs the whipping to get off.

getting close I think...heh...got my abnormal psych book out here

879 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:38:41pm

re: #868 Floral Giraffe

first part is probably irrational. I'd say its because they (specifically their state religion) have caused alot of the radicalism and problems in modern Sunni Islam. Also, they're a horrible repressive police state, one of the worst in the region (and thats saying something). Did you see the article this morning about how they're trying to force indonesian christians to convert to islam in order to work there? Thats messed.

The second, well Hussein mainly targeted Shi'ite and Kurd rebels, neither of which are meaningful factions ins SA.

880 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:39:00pm

re: #870 windsagio

Bolded for emphasis.
also, I just crapped myself.
I enjoy his act, but you're just not seeing.

Clean pants, might help your perspective?

881 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:39:20pm

re: #872 albusteve

see that was funny :P

882 jaunte  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:39:25pm

re: #875 Dark_Falcon

It's going to be hard for him to keep expropriating everything, when he's feeding his country with imported food.

883 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:39:55pm

re: #873 iceweasel

A certain "golly I'm new here" combined with the neocon thing just reeks of youngLibertarian.

884 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:39:57pm

re: #880 Floral Giraffe

do you want me to go through and cite examples? That would be a big pain in the ass for both of us.

885 palomino  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:40:02pm

re: #857 Dark_Falcon

Downding. Don't attack steve like that. He's not a hater of people, just a hater of big, intrusive government. LGF has a lot of people like that.

How is "I despise Obama voters" not an example of naked hatred?

886 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:40:16pm

re: #883 Rightwingconspirator

thats what I said! Yeah the schtick is pretty damn familiar ;)

887 Bagua  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:40:23pm

Walter,

Fascinating post, thank you. I'm just reading through it now and digesting the details.

At bare minimum, you've clearly demonstrated that it is reasonable to assert that the CRU data up until 2006 was inaccurate. As this data was key to the IPCC AR4 issued in 2007, and was cited numerous times, the implications are huge.

Further, your data suggests that there was repair to the programs deployed in the CRU TS 3, however, it is obvious that the underlying data must certainly be erroneous at that point, and impossible to correct. Thus, the program no doubt worked better post CRU 2, but the underlying data set is clearly hopeless compromised.

Well done. Thank you.

888 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:40:59pm

re: #873 iceweasel

BTW, until we see more of DW, he doesn't even sound like a lib to me but like someone pretending to be (what he thinks is) a 'lib'.

Not to say he's on the right, either. Probably neither. It's just kinda weird to throw out 'neocon war for oil' and 'whyfore u all hate poor peepul?'

Sounds like someone faking to me. Then again, Newsbusters is a pretty bad site, so...

I agree with windsagio's theory: I think it's YoungLib92 AKA Mosh, trying to get back in here.

889 Racer X  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:41:03pm

re: #870 windsagio

also, I just crapped myself.
/blockquote>

*steps a few feet away from windsagio*

890 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:41:10pm

re: #884 windsagio

do you want me to go through and cite examples? That would be a big pain in the ass for both of us.

No, it would hurt you, not me.

891 albusteve  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:41:11pm

re: #881 windsagio

see that was funny :P

yeah..."classic freakin hater" is funny....Walter is a liar, that's freakin funny!...you are a freakin riot of laughter

892 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:41:21pm

re: #866 Floral Giraffe

He's a respected member of LGF, who is mostly very civil.
And you are?

Yes yes, we know, we have to hang out for years on LGF and seniority and blah blah blah.

Seniority means everything...except when it doesn't. Just because someone has been playing in the comments for years and people like them, doesn't mean they're immune to being challenged when they say crap that doesn't make sense. In the internets that I come from, seniority means nothing and ideas mean everything.

People keep playing the seniority card here, and it's a dull dull card. it's the two of clubs.

893 keloyd  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:41:32pm

re: #855 windsagio

Don't hate on Saudi Arabia. In many ways, they have painted themselves into a corner. They would have been able to reform away from a monarchy if they didn't have oil. The US propped up the royal family to keep the reds out for decades. Many oil-rich small countries have been cursed politically by their easy wealth.

The current royal family is more progressive than the populace, believe it or not. If the (male) public, they would mistreat women and religious dissidents even more. I remember a story (from History Channel Intl.)about how the king wanted to start a national public school system in the 60's. The public was enraged at the idea of girls attending school. He compromised to keep the peace. Local towns/regions could vote on whether to offer girls separate schools or none at all. Result - some girls got school. That's what progress has to look like there.

My only Saudi friend's wife has a college degree.

894 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:41:36pm

re: #889 Racer X

I wouldn't get closer than that to me anyways...

895 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:41:44pm

re: #886 windsagio

Yes it is, I must have scrolled past it. Meant to quote you.

So-5 sock accounts, no friends and 1 cheap ass internet cafe.

896 Gus  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:42:00pm

re: #873 iceweasel

BTW, until we see more of DW, he doesn't even sound like a lib to me but like someone pretending to be (what he thinks is) a 'lib'.

Not to say he's on the right, either. Probably neither. It's just kinda weird to throw out 'neocon war for oil' and 'whyfore u all hate poor peepul?'

Sounds like someone faking to me. Then again, Newsbusters is a pretty bad site, so...

Some things are so strange they're worth ignoring. That one was almost like Dan Aykroyd playing a foreign tourist. You know, staged. Probably just a set-up for later use.

897 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:42:03pm

re: #873 iceweasel

Troll in training?

898 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:42:27pm

re: #883 Rightwingconspirator

A certain "golly I'm new here" combined with the neocon thing just reeks of youngLibertarian.

I repeat my previous statement.

As a conservative he manged to fool some other conservatives for a bit.

As a liberal he's just a joke...

899 windsagio  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:42:30pm

re: #893 keloyd

They've been hoisted by their own Wahbist petard then. Its sad.

900 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:42:44pm

re: #860 Floral Giraffe

Why do you feel this way?

You know, there was that little detail with the 9.11 hijackers mostly coming from Saudi Arabia...

I don't feel exactly the way Windsagio does, but Saudi Arabia is a marriage of convenience.

901 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:43:13pm

re: #882 jaunte

It's going to be hard for him to keep expropriating everything, when he's feeding his country with imported food.

Chavez thinks he can just threaten to stop oil exports and the West will fold. It won't work, but he's already shown himself to be a fool. No surprise that he overplays his hand.

902 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:43:21pm

re: #898 jamesfirecat

Right wingnut.

903 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:43:33pm

re: #883 Rightwingconspirator

A certain "golly I'm new here" combined with the neocon thing just reeks of youngLibertarian.

Yeah. Plus this guy made a point of saying he's 'older' than he thinks we are.

Makes it much less likely imo that he'd throw out a phrase like 'neocon war for oil'. Also smells like YL trying out a new tactic. (This time I'll pretend to be older! And a lib!)

We'll see. If he is YL aka Mosh aka whatever, his pattern is to be unable to stay away and rack up tons of comments in a short period of time.
Could be legit, (doubt it), could be a new troll (highly likely, imo).

904 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:43:42pm

re: #892 WindUpBird

Seniority is not a pass. But it is a history.

905 swamprat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:43:50pm

re: #897 Floral Giraffe

Bad anagram.

906 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:43:57pm

re: #876 eclectic infidel

Should you pass out, who would you like us lizards to send in to revive you?

Whichever of -->our women

907 Racer X  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:44:02pm

re: #892 WindUpBird

Seniority means everything

In the Lizard Union.

Pay your dues and you get more benefits.

908 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:44:14pm

re: #892 WindUpBird

Yes yes, we know, we have to hang out for years on LGF and seniority and blah blah blah.

Seniority means everything...except when it doesn't. Just because someone has been playing in the comments for years and people like them, doesn't mean they're immune to being challenged when they say crap that doesn't make sense. In the internets that I come from, seniority means nothing and ideas mean everything.

People keep playing the seniority card here, and it's a dull dull card. it's the two of clubs.

Hey don't you know how important your twos are if you're playing President?

909 LotharBot  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:44:16pm

Breaking:

"The Taliban's top military leader, Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, has been captured"

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

910 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:44:53pm

re: #883 Rightwingconspirator

re: #886 windsagio

re: #888 Dark_Falcon

Great Minds Think Alike.

911 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:44:53pm

re: #850 palomino

Ironic that you go on about Americans' short memories and then deny something you wrote an hour ago, namely that you despise Obama voters.

Kudos on dishing out more hatred and hostility than anyone else at LGF.

You haven't truly arrived until you've been told "you don't count" by albusteve. :D

And then he repeats it again and again and again...

912 Racer X  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:45:19pm

Trip to Dubai.

Interesting account of a recent trip to Dubai.

913 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:45:33pm

re: #882 jaunte

It's going to be hard for him to keep expropriating everything, when he's feeding his country with imported food.

Apparently he's conned himself into believing he's a regular Sam Walton.

914 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:45:44pm

re: #904 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Seniority is not a pass. But it is a history.

It's a history, sure! It's information. What it should not be, is some magical status where you get to bully people who registered later.

915 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:46:05pm

re: #909 LotharBot

Breaking:

"The Taliban's top military leader, Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, has been captured"

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

*fistpump*

916 Racer X  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:46:36pm

I thought the whole union mentality was cool with libruls?

917 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:46:40pm

re: #914 WindUpBird

Note the ding.

918 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:46:58pm

re: #909 LotharBot

Yaaay!

919 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:47:12pm

re: #907 Racer X

In the Lizard Union.

Pay your dues and you get more benefits.

If only we all knew what the "dues" were. ;-) When someone tells me "I don't count" a hundred times, I get to find that childish and silly and I get to mock the dude saying that to me. Those are my rules.

920 Cato the Elder  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:47:17pm

re: #900 WindUpBird

You know, there was that little detail with the 9.11 hijackers mostly coming from Saudi Arabia...

I don't feel exactly the way Windsagio does, but Saudi Arabia is a marriage of convenience.

Oh, feck me.

Saudi Arabia was a marriage of necessity contracted by the British Umpire and passed on to us when we bought their holdings at a fire sale. Tents, camels, asses, jenny-asses, women, and other chattel.

Only we didn't look too closely at the contract and they ended up owning us.

Viz. old vids of Rumsfeld with his tongue up the ass of various fifth-level sheikhs.

921 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:47:18pm

re: #909 LotharBot
Red is positive. Black is negative.

Just sayin'.

922 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Feb 15, 2010 8:47:57pm

re: #906 The Sanity Inspector

Whichever of -->our women

Whichever of "our women" are up to it, I meant.

/ harpooned joke twitches its last on the deck.

923 jamesfirecat</