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NYT Exposes Tea Party Extremism

US News • Views: 2,265

I’ve been wondering why the mainstream media have been so curiously uninterested in the bad craziness of the tea party movement, but with the release of this New York Times article the grace period may be coming to an end: Tea Party Movement Lights Fuse for Rebellion on Right.

This article focuses, as it should, on the influence in the tea party movement of the conspiracy theorists and militias, including the formerly marginalized John Birch Society and the Oath Keepers, and the increasing prevalence of rhetoric promoting a violent civil war.

[Pam Stout] was happily retired, and had never been active politically. But last April, she went to her first Tea Party rally, then to a meeting of the Sandpoint Tea Party Patriots. She did not know a soul, yet when they began electing board members, she stood up, swallowed hard, and nominated herself for president. “I was like, ‘Did I really just do that?’ ” she recalled.

Then she went even further.

Worried about hyperinflation, social unrest or even martial law, she and her Tea Party members joined a coalition, Friends for Liberty, that includes representatives from Glenn Beck’s 9/12 Project, the John Birch Society, and Oath Keepers, a new player in a resurgent militia movement.

When Friends for Liberty held its first public event, Mrs. Stout listened as Richard Mack, a former Arizona sheriff, brought 1,400 people to their feet with a speech about confronting a despotic federal government. Mrs. Stout said she felt as if she had been handed a road map to rebellion. Members of her family, she said, think she has disappeared down a rabbit hole of conspiracy theories. But Mrs. Stout said she has never felt so engaged.

Ron Paul figures prominently, as always. When I first began covering the tea parties, readers positive toward the movement vehemently resisted the idea that Ron Paul and his army of kooks were deeply involved.

No one is resisting any more. It’s become obvious to everyone that the tea party movement is a mix of Paulian paleolibertarianism, religious fanaticism, and plain old whacked out insanity.

This kind of toxic mix is fertile ground for recruitment by extremist groups, and they’re exploiting the opportunity relentlessly.

Leah Southwell’s turning point came when she stumbled on Ron Paul’s speeches on YouTube. (“He blew me away.”) Until recently, Mrs. Southwell was in the top 1 percent of all Mary Kay sales representatives, with a company car and a frenetic corporate life. “I knew zero about the Constitution,” Mrs. Southwell confessed. Today, when asked about her commitment to the uprising, she recites a line from the Declaration of Independence, a Tea Party favorite: “We mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.”

Mr. Paul led Mrs. Southwell to Patriot ideology, which holds that governments and economies are controlled by networks of elites who wield power through exclusive entities like the Bilderberg Group, the Trilateral Commission and the Council on Foreign Relations.

This idea has a long history, with variations found at both ends of the political spectrum. But to Mrs. Southwell, the government’s culpability for the recession — the serial failures of regulation, the Federal Reserve’s epic blunders, the cozy bailouts for big banks — made it resonate all the more, especially as she witnessed the impact on family and friends.

“The more you know, the madder you are,” she said. “I mean when you finally learn what the Federal Reserve is!”

Last spring, Mrs. Southwell quit her job and became a national development officer for the John Birch Society, recruiting and raising money across the West, often at Tea Party events. She has been stunned by the number of Tea Party supporters gravitating toward Patriot ideology. “Most of these people are just waking up,” she said.

Read the whole thing…

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275 comments

1 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 9:49:16am
Mr. Paul led Mrs. Southwell to Patriot ideology, which holds that governments and economies are controlled by networks of elites who wield power through exclusive entities like the Bilderberg Group, the Trilateral Commission and the Council on Foreign Relations.

I’d like to note that these sorts of whacked out conspiracy theories are often tied to antisemitism, with the ‘network of elites’ being Jewish. Related claims include:

* Too much of the judiciary is Jewish.
* The major banks are actually owned by Jews.
* US Foreign policy is dictated from Israel.

Now, one thing I can say for the ‘regular’ Right is that they’re pro-Israel, but the Paulian/conspiracy kooks have a more ‘complex’ relationship with Israel and Jews.

2 Stonemason  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 9:49:37am

Yup, the far right has become as nuts as the far left. The only difference I can see is that there are going to be many exposes on the tea party while there were few of Move on, Code Pink and others.
Not talking about here, LGF was great in exposing the far left craziness.

3 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 9:49:39am

Read most of this article last night. Good stuff. BBL

4 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 9:51:06am

re: #1 Obdicut

I’d like to note that these sorts of whacked out conspiracy theories are often tied to antisemitism, with the ‘network of elites’ being Jewish. Related claims include:

* Too much of the judiciary is Jewish.
* The major banks are actually owned by Jews.
* US Foreign policy is dictated from Israel.

Now, one thing I can say for the ‘regular’ Right is that they’re pro-Israel, but the Paulian/conspiracy kooks have a more ‘complex’ relationship with Israel and Jews.

Paulians and LaRouchians are swarming over these tea parties.

5 Soap_Man  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 9:51:28am

“NYT Exposes Tea Party Extremism”

I would say Tea Party extremism exposes itself, but whatever. :)

6 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 9:51:39am

re: #2 Stonemason

Yup, the far right has become as nuts as the far left. The only difference I can see is that there are going to be many exposes on the tea party while there were few of Move on, Code Pink and others.
Not talking about here, LGF was great in exposing the far left craziness.

The far right is worse than the worst of the left. Much worse.

You may not agree with Code Pink’s ideology or tactics, but they’re not building stockpiles of weapons and preaching revolution.

7 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 9:51:58am

re: #4 Alouette

Oooh, good call. For sheer nutbag idiocy in conspiracy ranting, and top-quality antisemitism, you can’t do better than Lyndon LaRouche.

8 wrenchwench  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 9:53:03am

re: #1 Obdicut

I’d like to note that these sorts of whacked out conspiracy theories are often tied to antisemitism, with the ‘network of elites’ being Jewish. Related claims include:

* Too much of the judiciary is Jewish.
* The major banks are actually owned by Jews.
* US Foreign policy is dictated from Israel.

Now, one thing I can say for the ‘regular’ Right is that they’re pro-Israel, but the Paulian/conspiracy kooks have a more ‘complex’ relationship with Israel and Jews.

I thought that was a glaring omission in the article.

9 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 9:53:07am

re: #6 Charles

The far right is worse than the worst of the left. Much worse.

You may not agree with Code Pink’s ideology or tactics, but they’re not building stockpiles of weapons and preaching revolution.

Indeed.

10 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 9:53:16am

re: #7 Obdicut

Oooh, good call. For sheer nutbag idiocy in conspiracy ranting, and top-quality antisemitism, you can’t do better than Lyndon LaRouche.

The LaRouche people are stark raving bonkers. I’ve never been sure what they’re for, besides Lyndon LaRouche, but they seem to be against almost everything else.

11 wiffersnapper  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 9:54:14am

My favorite revolutions are the ones composed by the Beatles.

12 albusteve  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 9:55:28am

re: #11 wiffersnapper

My favorite revolutions are the ones composed by the Beatles.

number 9
number 9

13 Kragar  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 9:56:20am
Leah Southwell’s turning point came when she stumbled on Ron Paul’s speeches on YouTube. (“He blew me away.”) Until recently, Mrs. Southwell was in the top 1 percent of all Mary Kay sales representatives, with a company car and a frenetic corporate life. “I knew zero about the Constitution,” Mrs. Southwell confessed. Today, when asked about her commitment to the uprising, she recites a line from the Declaration of Independence, a Tea Party favorite: “We mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.”

Mr. Paul led Mrs. Southwell to Patriot ideology, which holds that governments and economies are controlled by networks of elites who wield power through exclusive entities like the Bilderberg Group, the Trilateral Commission and the Council on Foreign Relations.

I think its fair to say that Mrs. Southwell’s knowledge of the Constitution has not grown in any factual sense since then.

14 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 9:59:23am

I don’t understand. Why are they angry now? Where were they when the recession started years ago. When the Bush government was getting bloated and overgrown. No where. If McCain had been elected, they wouldn’t exist, but our problems surely would still exist.

15 Stonemason  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 9:59:42am

re: #6 Charles

CPUSA has been know to stockpile weapons

The extremes on either side are nuts, always will be.

16 jdog29  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:01:22am

I reserve the right to “line item veto” any particular statement or position taken by so called tea partiers.

“What’s that, the line item veto was ruled unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court during the Clinton administration…..”

17 jaunte  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:01:24am
She and her members are becoming convinced that rallies alone will not save the Republic. They are searching for some larger answer, she said. They are also waiting for a leader, someone capable of uniting their rebellion, someone like Ms. Palin, who made Sandpoint one of the final stops on her book tour and who has announced plans to attend a series of high-profile Tea Party events in the next few months.


She’s going to make a lot of money on this speaking tour; much more than what she would have made finishing the job she was elected to.
At some point, I hope the similarity between the Tea Parties and conventional multi-level marketing operations is going to dawn on some of the attendees.

18 lawhawk  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:01:44am

Whatever positive elements of advocating for small government and curbing the insanity of out-of-control government spending has gone by the boards as the Tea Party movement has gone off the rails (or perhaps more accurately - never been on the rails to begin with, but which at one time provided a timely outlet for anger against the government).

19 Stonemason  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:01:50am

re: #6 Charles

and my point was that the media is soon going to go after tea parties in a way they never went after the far left as you and Zombie did when they were out in force.
Exposing the insanity on both sides is important.

20 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:03:17am

re: #14 marjoriemoon

I don’t understand. Why are they angry now? Where were they when the recession started years ago. When the Bush government was getting bloated and overgrown. No where. If McCain had been elected, they wouldn’t exist, but our problems surely would still exist.

That’s a key issue for me. They act as though they woke up one day in a brand new America.

21 Lidane  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:03:54am

re: #2 Stonemason

The only difference I can see is that there are going to be many exposes on the tea party while there were few of Move on, Code Pink and others.

That’s because both Code Pink and MoveOn lost a lot of prominence after the failure of the anti-Iraq war movement and all their protests. I don’t think I’ve heard anything about either group in years, except when someone brings them up as a counterpoint to the teabaggers.

Code Pink has pretty much fallen off the face of the Earth into total irrelevance, all their theatrics notwithstanding. And I’m not sure when the last time was that MoveOn made any sort of national news. I think it might have been during the 2008 election with that ad about McCain, but even many liberals criticized them for it.

The teabaggers, on the other hand, are far more prominent, and there’s a lot of very dangerous ideas being thrown around that are suckering the gullible. That’s why they’re getting a lot more attention.

22 Olsonist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:04:44am

re: #6 Charles

The far right is worse than the worst of the left. Much worse.

You may not agree with Code Pink’s ideology or tactics, but they’re not building stockpiles of weapons and preaching revolution.

I went through the Wikipedia entry for Code Pink. They’re antiwar. When the Republicans were opposing Clinton over the Bosnian and Kosovo campaigns, were they somehow patriotic?

23 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:05:55am

Code Pink was never relevent, just loud.

ANSWER, on the other hand, is sinister as hell, but got practically no coverage during their glory years.

24 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:07:15am

re: #1 Obdicut

I’d like to note that these sorts of whacked out conspiracy theories are often tied to antisemitism, with the ‘network of elites’ being Jewish. Related claims include:

* Too much of the judiciary is Jewish.
* The major banks are actually owned by Jews.
* US Foreign policy is dictated from Israel.

Now, one thing I can say for the ‘regular’ Right is that they’re pro-Israel, but the Paulian/conspiracy kooks have a more ‘complex’ relationship with Israel and Jews.

The “Christian Nation” stuff doesn’t give me warm fuzzies either :(

25 fizzlogic  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:08:21am

It’s sort of the same path some took to become pro-torture. At first hearing about what took place at Abu Ghraib was like a punch in the stomach. Then, as they got caught up in their hate of all things Islam, techniques to make prisoners talk began to make sense—stress positions, water boarding, it’s all good. Yeah, it is sort of like a rabbit hole.

26 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:08:53am

On the left, there’s absolutely no comparable group to the Oath Keepers or the John Birch Society. And no media outlets ever pushed or promoted the left’s crazier fringes the way people like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh are promoting the extreme right.

27 Olsonist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:10:38am

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

Code Pink was never relevent, just loud.

ANSWER, on the other hand, is sinister as hell, but got practically no coverage during their glory years.

I’d go even further and say they were anti-relevant. They were reduced to a strawman by the media when we should have been debating the war.

28 Lidane  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:11:33am

re: #14 marjoriemoon

I don’t understand. Why are they angry now?

Because their ignorance is being exploited by a bunch of people with a dangerous agenda. That’s why.

29 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:11:34am

re: #27 Olsonist

I’d go even further and say they were anti-relevant. They were reduced to a strawman by the media when we should have been debating the war.

Sort of like how we could be discussing exactly how far we want government involved in our lives in a calm manner, and instead we have grown men playing dress up?

30 Stonemason  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:12:39am

re: #26 Charles

yes they did, Air America was started with that cause in mind. Left wing pundits pushed the anti-war marches and most media outlets gave positive press to those events, even the ones (exposed here) that were run by socialists and communists.

As for extreme left groups being violent? I don’t wander into those areas, much like I couldn’t tell you what idiot birchers think. I really don’t want to look, but can we at least agree that there are extremists on both sides?

31 lawhawk  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:12:42am

Meanwhile, Joe the Plumber is pissed and is busy trying to inject himself into the McCain senate reelection campaign.

McCain was trying to use me. I happened to be the face of middle Americans. It was a ploy.

My sympathy meter isn’t moving for Joe. He asked a quite valid question of then candidate Obama, and allowed himself to campaign for the McCain/Palin effort. Now? He’s angry at McCain (though the reason isn’t clear), angry at Palin for supporting McCain, and still thinks Obama isn’t good.

He is, however, working with the Tea Party movement.

32 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:12:48am

re: #14 marjoriemoon

I don’t understand. Why are they angry now? Where were they when the recession started years ago. When the Bush government was getting bloated and overgrown. No where. If McCain had been elected, they wouldn’t exist, but our problems surely would still exist.

They were upset over the bush spending, me included. I don’t know how folks can forget that. Remember all the “porkbusters” crap? The difference in the anger level is mostly due to the economic meltdown we’ve experienced over the last 18 months.

33 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:13:08am

re: #27 Olsonist

I’d go even further and say they were anti-relevant. They were reduced to a strawman by the media when we should have been debating the war.

“How can we talk about foreign policy when Medea Benjamin is wearing a pink tutu and distracting us?”

34 Gang of One  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:13:12am

re: #26 Charles

On the left, there’s absolutely no comparable group to the Oath Keepers or the John Birch Society. And no media outlets ever pushed or promoted the left’s crazier fringes the way people like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh are promoting the extreme right.

My elderly peeps still watch Beck; swear by him, in fact. if I go over to visit and Beck is on, I walk out of the TV room … sometimes out of the house. Peeps just won’t see this putz for what he is and what he represents.

35 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:13:54am

re: #30 Stonemason

yes they did, Air America was started with that cause in mind. Left wing pundits pushed the anti-war marches and most media outlets gave positive press to those events, even the ones (exposed here) that were run by socialists and communists.

As for extreme left groups being violent? I don’t wander into those areas, much like I couldn’t tell you what idiot birchers think. I really don’t want to look, but can we at least agree that there are extremists on both sides?

Yes, there are extremists on both sides, but the far right’s extremists are more dangerous because they’re heavily armed and they’re openly talking about violence.

36 Lidane  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:14:05am

re: #30 Stonemason

Air America was started with that cause in mind.

And Air America is now bankrupt and off the air. Shows how effective they were, don’t you think?

37 Kragar  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:14:25am

re: #33 SanFranciscoZionist

“How can we talk about foreign policy when Medea Benjamin is wearing a pink tutu and distracting us?”

LOOK! A HUGE DISTRACTING THING!

/ducks and hides

38 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:14:29am

re: #32 RogueOne

You do not think the election of a Democrat as president is a prominent part of what’s fueling many of the Tea Partiers?

39 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:14:37am

re: #21 Lidane

That’s because both Code Pink and MoveOn lost a lot of prominence after the failure of the anti-Iraq war movement and all their protests. I don’t think I’ve heard anything about either group in years, except when someone brings them up as a counterpoint to the teabaggers.

Code Pink has pretty much fallen off the face of the Earth into total irrelevance, all their theatrics notwithstanding. And I’m not sure when the last time was that MoveOn made any sort of national news. I think it might have been during the 2008 election with that ad about McCain, but even many liberals criticized them for it.

The teabaggers, on the other hand, are far more prominent, and there’s a lot of very dangerous ideas being thrown around that are suckering the gullible. That’s why they’re getting a lot more attention.

MoveOn was mainstream though. They had professional people in their ranks. They did phone calls during the election. They sent fliers. They were out there. They weren’t hippy kids and grandmas dressed in pink boas. Lots on the Left didn’t even know them. Unless you followed the blogs or been to California, they hardly existed.

40 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:15:16am

re: #38 Obdicut

You do not think the election of a Democrat black man as president is a prominent part of what’s fueling many of the Tea Partiers?

Fixed that for you.

41 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:15:19am

re: #29 EmmmieG

Sort of like how we could be discussing exactly how far we want government involved in our lives in a calm manner, and instead we have grown men playing dress up?

Absolutely. All the same dumbass behavior is on display—complete with the paranoia, the self-righteousness, the flamboyant self-promotion…

42 Charles Johnson  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:16:22am

Note this section of the article:

Rachel Dolezal, curator of the Human Rights Education Institute in Coeur d’Alene, has also watched the Tea Party movement with trepidation. Though raised in a conservative family, Ms. Dolezal, who is multiracial, said she could not imagine showing her face at a Tea Party event. To her, what stands out are the all-white crowds, the crude depictions of Mr. Obama as an African witch doctor and the signs labeling him a terrorist. “It would make me nervous to be there unless I went with a big group,” she said.

43 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:16:36am

re: #31 lawhawk

Meanwhile, Joe the Plumber is pissed and is busy trying to inject himself into the McCain senate reelection campaign.

My sympathy meter isn’t moving for Joe. He asked a quite valid question of then candidate Obama, and allowed himself to campaign for the McCain/Palin effort. Now? He’s angry at McCain (though the reason isn’t clear), angry at Palin for supporting McCain, and still thinks Obama isn’t good.

He is, however, working with the Tea Party movement.

They’re the only ones that will give you something for free for being ‘a real American’.

44 Gang of One  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:16:42am

re: #37 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

LOOK! A HUGE DISTRACTING THING!

I’d run with that, but it would lead to such inappropriate things … :>)

45 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:16:50am

re: #40 Charles

I think the Tea Party is a big tent— composed of fringe.

46 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:16:50am

re: #38 Obdicut

You do not think the election of a Democrat as president is a prominent part of what’s fueling many of the Tea Partiers?

I think the fact that republicans started losing seats 6 years ago tells you all you need to know. This issue has been building for a long time and the cherry on top was the stimulus package. If McCain had won the election and proposed/signed the same stimulus bill you’d still see the tea party types out there.

47 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:17:46am

re: #12 albusteve

number 9
number 9

I am the walrus?

48 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:17:53am

re: #32 RogueOne

They were upset over the bush spending, me included. I don’t know how folks can forget that. Remember all the “porkbusters” crap? The difference in the anger level is mostly due to the economic meltdown we’ve experienced over the last 18 months.

Upset yes, but not organized. This is different. This is stockpiling weapons, food and talking crazy talk.

49 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:18:11am

re: #37 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

LOOK! A HUGE DISTRACTING THING!

/ducks and hides

Hardly huge. Medea is pretty scrawny.

50 Stonemason  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:18:55am

re: #36 Lidane

and these tea parties will go the same way…as will Beck.
Limbaugh will be around, he moves with the right wing winds.
I am happy that the tea parties are being exposed for what they are, I noticed in at the same time most of you did.
I stopped listening to Beck long before the tea party stuff, he was too far right for me.
Why do I feel the need to present my credentials? Sheesh, my point was that the media is going to bring this group down, but it was not the media that tossed those others in obscurity, it was the election of President Obama and the absolute uselessness of the last 3 years (or more) of President Bush’s tenure in the White House.

51 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:19:05am

re: #46 RogueOne

I’m sorry, I think that’s rosy-eyed thinking. I do not think the Tea Party people would have the media support, the funding, and the level of emotional outrage if it wasn’t President Obama in the White House.

52 baier  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:19:22am

re: #35 Charles

Yes, there are extremists on both sides, but the far right’s extremists are more dangerous because they’re heavily armed and they’re openly talking about violence.

I would agree with that statement only as it applies to the domestic front. The far left has done a fine job of villainizing Israel and supporting militaristic despots.

53 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:19:33am

re: #38 Obdicut

You do not think the election of a Democrat as president is a prominent part of what’s fueling many of the Tea Partiers?

I don’t think most of these folks would be out there protestin’ and conspiracy theorizin’ and wearin’ their fake powdered hair if John McCain were president.

This is not to say that there aren’t many real fiscal conservatives out there, just to say that I don’t think that’s what this is all about.

54 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:19:38am

re: #32 RogueOne

They were upset over the bush spending, me included. I don’t know how folks can forget that. Remember all the “porkbusters” crap? The difference in the anger level is mostly due to the economic meltdown we’ve experienced over the last 18 months.

The meltdown was inevitable. The question always has been how BIG a meltdown. Depression big? Or recession big. I don’t know squat about economics, but I know that much. It could have been a hellofa lot worse.

55 lawhawk  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:20:20am

re: #45 Obdicut

Well, it is a circus.

56 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:20:48am

re: #42 Charles

Note this section of the article:

I can absolutely sympathize with that.

57 Stonemason  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:20:56am

re: #42 Charles

Oh, and the fact that they harbor racist tendencies is another reason they should go, I agree. That was one of my own first light bulbs, that and the birther stuff that will not go away.

58 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:21:45am

re: #51 Obdicut

I’m sorry, I think that’s rosy-eyed thinking. I do not think the Tea Party people would have the media support, the funding, and the level of emotional outrage if it wasn’t President Obama in the White House.

And I think that’s revisionist history. People have been upset over spending for quite awhile now. Somehow the dems saw the repubs lose their majority and took away the lesson that the problem was they just didn’t spend enough. The repubs learned their lesson the hard way and now it’s the dems turn. Not everything is a conspiracy, some things are obvious.

59 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:22:08am

What I find remarkable lately is what appears to be a wholesale abdication of responsibility by the former leadership of the GOP, thereby leaving an open playing field for the far right wing.
It has now been 15 months since the last election, with no sign of any emergent moderate national leaders.
The impression I get, and I hope I am wrong, is that not only the centre-right but also an increasing portion of the mainstream of the Republican party seem to be deserting the rudderless ship like rats running down the gangplank.
If this responsible leadership vacuum is allowed by moderate conservatives to continue much longer, then there may well be cause to fear for the very survival of the GOP as we know it.

*paranoid rant off*

60 Olsonist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:22:29am

re: #30 Stonemason

yes they did, Air America was started with that cause in mind. Left wing pundits pushed the anti-war marches and most media outlets gave positive press to those events, even the ones (exposed here) that were run by socialists and communists.

Air America has ~45 affiliates. Rush Limbaugh has ~650. Michael Savage has 250. Sean Hannity has ~435. ….

I don’t remember reading about antiwar protests being led by communists. Most of us antiwar folks were against the Iraq war. It turned out we were right. Who knew?

61 Stonemason  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:22:52am

re: #53 SanFranciscoZionist

And I think that Code Pink, Move On, and Answer would still be out in force if McCain was elected…

62 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:22:55am

re: #58 RogueOne

I’m sorry, how do you feel that I’m saying this is a conspiracy?

And what part of history did I ‘revise’?

63 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:23:33am

Fringe bad.

64 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:23:45am

re: #54 marjoriemoon

The meltdown was inevitable. The question always has been how BIG a meltdown. Depression big? Or recession big. I don’t know squat about economics, but I know that much. It could have been a hellofa lot worse.

We don’t know that. Remember how we were told this package would keep unemployment down? How did that work out? The stimulus package was nothing more than a pet project payment plan. 90% of the public is coming to that realization and the party in power is going to be the one to pay the price. If the parties were reversed it wouldn’t change anything.

65 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:24:01am

re: #52 baier

I would agree with that statement only as it applies to the domestic front. The far left has done a fine job of villainizing Israel and supporting militaristic despots.

How much influence do American far-leftist have on those fronts, though? I see them mostly as tapping into larger movements, trying to spread the poison locally—but they aren’t doing much of a job, are they? The U.S. still supports Israel, our big gesture toward Cuba was to let some expats go hoe and visit family…

66 American-African  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:24:14am

re: #15 Stonemason

CPUSA has been know to stockpile weapons

The extremes on either side are nuts, always will be.

Agreed, however I work in an industry where I see specific sales volume of weapons, and there was a considerable increase from November 2008 until autumn of 2009. That increase has not been attributed to left wing zealots.

67 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:24:38am

re: #31 lawhawk

Meanwhile, Joe the Plumber is pissed and is busy trying to inject himself into the McCain senate reelection campaign.

My sympathy meter isn’t moving for Joe. He asked a quite valid question of then candidate Obama, and allowed himself to campaign for the McCain/Palin effort. Now? He’s angry at McCain (though the reason isn’t clear), angry at Palin for supporting McCain, and still thinks Obama isn’t good.

He is, however, working with the Tea Party movement.

Poor Joe. Everyone knew he was being used as a tool, except Joe. My heart just breaks for Poor Joe or Poor Sam or whatever they call him.

He’s joined the Tea Party eh? LOL Wow! I’m shocked!! LOL yeesh.

68 Gang of One  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:25:01am

re: #59 Spare O’Lake

I believe since William F. Buckley passed away, the conservative movement has become unglued. He was the sane voice of American conservatism. Nobody has been able, IMHO, to fill his shoes.

69 Stonemason  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:25:07am

re: #60 Olsonist

I don’t know if the link is allowed so I will not do it. Google Mohamed Images and you will find a site that exposes the links between the anti war movement and communists.

70 Olsonist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:25:52am

re: #61 Stonemason

And I think that Code Pink, Move On, and Answer would still be out in force if McCain was elected…

There is that. But there is also Rahm. Basically Rahm and Obama stiffed the progressives who elected him. Hence the sitting on of the hands.

71 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:25:56am

re: #60 Olsonist

Air America has had ~45 affiliates. Rush Limbaugh has ~650. Michael Savage has 250. Sean Hannity has ~435. …

Isn’t Air America a former radio network?

72 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:26:36am

re: #62 Obdicut

re: #51 Obdicut

…… I do not think the Tea Party people would have the media support, the funding, and the level of emotional outrage if it wasn’t President Obama in the White House.

The only thing you’re missing is a whiteboard and 8x10 glossies with circles and arrows. //

73 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:26:56am

re: #58 RogueOne

And I think that’s revisionist history. People have been upset over spending for quite awhile now. Somehow the dems saw the repubs lose their majority and took away the lesson that the problem was they just didn’t spend enough. The repubs learned their lesson the hard way and now it’s the dems turn. Not everything is a conspiracy, some things are obvious.

People may have been upset over spending, but the cannon fodder of this ‘movement’ appear to have barely noticed the government existed until a ‘scary socialist’ was elected, and they all sprang screaming into action.

Just because YOU’RE an aware fiscon doesn’t mean most of these folks are. I could be wrong, but I’m not seeing anything that would convince me most of the Tea Party folks have the slightest idea what they’re talking about.

74 fizzlogic  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:27:14am

re: #54 marjoriemoon and RogueOne

They have also transferred most of that hatred to Obama making the false claim that Obama has tripled Bush’s deficit spending.

The above also links to a NYT article, but the rant is especially good. I’ve also read Bruce Bartlett saying pretty much the same thing.

75 badger1970  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:27:34am

re: #72 RogueOne

“Alice’s Restaurant”?

76 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:27:36am

re: #34 Gang of One

There’s a new Facebook group called something like “I wonder if this poodle wearing a tin foil hat can get more fans than Glenn Beck.”

77 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:27:39am

re: #72 RogueOne

Really? How so?

I see the slashy-bits, but where exactly do you see a conspiracy in anything I’ve said?

78 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:28:11am

re: #68 Gang of One

I believe since William F. Buckley passed away, the conservative movement has become unglued. He was the sane voice of American conservatism. Nobody has been able, IMHO, to fill his shoes.

It’s high time for someone to give the good and loyal mainstream GOP a voice.

79 Olsonist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:28:33am

re: #69 Stonemason

Fail. I was antiwar WRT Iraq and I am no communist. Silicon Valley and American free enterprise have treated me very well, thank you.

80 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:28:50am

re: #69 Stonemason

I don’t know if the link is allowed so I will not do it. Google Mohamed Images and you will find a site that exposes the links between the anti war movement and communists.

ANSWER and the ISM.

81 Olsonist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:29:24am

re: #71 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Isn’t Air America a former radio network?

My mistake, thanks for the correction.

82 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:29:35am

re: #72 RogueOne

re: #51 Obdicut

The only thing you’re missing is a whiteboard and 8x10 glossies with circles and arrows. //

Shut up, kid.

83 badger1970  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:29:42am

re: #78 Spare O’Lake

Reagan is dead.

84 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:29:55am

re: #50 Stonemason

…my point was that the media is going to bring this group down, but it was not the media that tossed those others in obscurity, it was the election of President Obama and the absolute uselessness of the last 3 years (or more) of President Bush’s tenure in the White House.

I hope so.

Charles pegged it right on the money. Not the election of a Democrat, but the election of Black man. That was the fuel that ignited the embers. They wouldn’t go against Bush even if they disagreed because they loved him. They never gave Obama a chance, nor would they ever.

85 Randall Gross  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:30:01am

I’ve been predicting that they will cannibalize themselves because they are mostly over amped wingnuts who cannot co-exist with each other long enough to achieve a real goal. It appears that the process is unfolding before our eyes; as they squabble their chances in the polls are dropping. As average Americans really start paying attention to politics again when the election cycle swings into gear post primaries, the fecal matter the left has been saving up will really hit the fringe fans.

86 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:30:06am

re: #61 Stonemason

And I think that Code Pink, Move On, and Answer would still be out in force if McCain was elected…

Oh, hell yeah! (Actually, they are, they’ve just lost a lot of their audience.)

But that’s exactly what I mean. This is partisan fringe-political BS. There are Americans who are mad about government spending, just as there were Americans who were and are mad about the war. But the crazy people do not REPRESENT them, the crazy people EXPLOIT them.

87 fizzlogic  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:30:21am

re: #68 Gang of One

The Right was unglued well before Buckley passed away. And frankly, I think Buckley is partially to blame for its undoing…he invited Limbaugh in and gave him his blessing.

88 baier  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:30:29am

re: #65 SanFranciscoZionist

How much influence do American far-leftist have on those fronts, though? I see them mostly as tapping into larger movements, trying to spread the poison locally—but they aren’t doing much of a job, are they? The U.S. still supports Israel, our big gesture toward Cuba was to let some expats go hoe and visit family…

I think they have enough influence to do real harm, and I think they have done harm. You look at the “human rights” groups that continually condemn Israel while ignoring Hamas shooting homosexuals in the street, etc. That’s just one example, but news organizations frequently use those groups as authoritative sources.

89 Olsonist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:30:59am

re: #82 MandyManners

Shut up, kid.

It’s the ever polite Miss Manners.

90 Stanghazi  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:31:06am

re: #73 SanFranciscoZionist

People may have been upset over spending, but the cannon fodder of this ‘movement’ appear to have barely noticed the government existed until a ‘scary socialist’ was elected, and they all sprang screaming into action.

Just because YOU’RE an aware fiscon doesn’t mean most of these folks are. I could be wrong, but I’m not seeing anything that would convince me most of the Tea Party folks have the slightest idea what they’re talking about.

And I would suppose that the majority of tea partiers are regular viewers of Fox and listen to right wing radio, where over and over and over and over they are told how bad it is NOW. To fear for their country NOW.

I think the right wing media has led the charge, with all the stars in alignment.

91 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:31:16am

re: #88 baier

I think they have enough influence to do real harm, and I think they have done harm. You look at the “human rights” groups that continually condemn Israel while ignoring Hamas shooting homosexuals in the street, etc. That’s just one example, but news organizations frequently use those groups as authoritative sources.

And, the Respect Party in England.

92 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:31:31am

re: #89 Olsonist

It’s the ever polite Miss Manners.

I take it you’re not a fan of Guthrie.

93 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:31:41am

re: #89 Olsonist

Let’s not have a bicker-war.

94 SpaceJesus  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:31:41am

once again, the onion hits it right on the head

[Link: www.theonion.com…]

95 Gang of One  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:31:54am

re: #78 Spare O’Lake

It’s high time for someone to give the good and loyal mainstream GOP a voice.

Who is here for that? Victor Davis Hanson? Rich Lowry? Jonah Goldberg?
I thought Dennis Prager might take up some slack, but he dropped the ball with his open letter to Charles. I sometimes think Norman or John Podhoretz, but they’d be vilified by the Protocols of the Elders of Zion faction of the right.
It is to be pulling out one’s hair.

96 Killgore Trout  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:32:01am

The Tea Parties are bad enough on their own but it’s amazingly stupid for the Republican party to participate in this nonsense. No politician even remotely connected to the Tea Parties will have any hope of a future in politics. It’s suicide for the Republican party.

97 tradewind  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:32:27am

Actually, it’s difficult to think of any other institution as familiar with Bad Craziness as the NYT, so this is perfect for them.

98 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:33:32am

re: #92 MandyManners

Shut up and dance is also great:

99 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:34:01am

re: #64 RogueOne

We don’t know that. Remember how we were told this package would keep unemployment down? How did that work out? The stimulus package was nothing more than a pet project payment plan. 90% of the public is coming to that realization and the party in power is going to be the one to pay the price. If the parties were reversed it wouldn’t change anything.

What it would change is the perception and perception means everything. Facts mean nothing, don’t you think?

If McCain/Palin were in power, they would be Gods whether they brought unemployment down or whether it went to 20% or more. Why? Because no one said shit while Bush played his fiddle and the government came crashing down around him.

100 Killgore Trout  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:34:23am
Oath Keepers, which has been recruiting at Tea Party events around the country and forging informal ties with militia groups, has an enthusiastic following in Friends for Liberty. “A lot of my people are Oath Keepers,” Mr. Stevens said. “I’m an honorary Oath Keeper myself.”

Mrs. Stout became an honorary Oath Keeper, too, and sent an e-mail message urging her members to sign up. “They may be very important for our future,” she wrote.

By inviting Richard Mack to speak at their first event, leaders of Friends for Liberty were trying to attract militia support. They knew Mr. Mack had many militia fans, and not simply because he had helped Randy Weaver write a book about Ruby Ridge. As a sheriff in Arizona, Mr. Mack had sued the Clinton administration over the Brady gun control law, which resulted in a Supreme Court ruling that the law violated state sovereignty by requiring local officials to conduct background checks on gun buyers.
…..
But last February he was invited to appear on “Infowars,” the Internet radio program hosted by Alex Jones, a well-known figure in the Patriot movement. Then Mr. Mack went on “The Power Hour,” another Internet radio program popular in the Patriot movement.

After those appearances, Mr. Mack said, he was inundated with invitations to speak to Tea Parties and Patriot groups. Demand was so great, he said, that he quit selling cars. Then Andrew P. Napolitano, a Fox News legal analyst, invited him to New York to appear on his podcast.


Ugh.

101 Gang of One  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:34:41am

re: #87 trendsurfer

The Right was unglued well before Buckley passed away. And frankly, I think Buckley is partially to blame for its undoing…he invited Limbaugh in and gave him his blessing.

True, I suppose, but Limbaugh started to go off the rails after Buckley died.

102 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:34:45am

re: #73 SanFranciscoZionist

People may have been upset over spending, but the cannon fodder of this ‘movement’ appear to have barely noticed the government existed until a ‘scary socialist’ was elected, and they all sprang screaming into action.

Just because YOU’RE an aware fiscon doesn’t mean most of these folks are. I could be wrong, but I’m not seeing anything that would convince me most of the Tea Party folks have the slightest idea what they’re talking about.

I think that’s reading between the lines too much. Anyone paying attention since 2004 would have had to see this coming. The issue didn’t start with the Obama election and only came to a head when unemployment topped 9% and the president/congress passed the bloated stimulus package. It doesn’t matter what party the president belonged to nor does the color of his skin matter. He isn’t losing dems/repubs to the tea party crowd, it’s independents he’s losing in droves. That’s why NJ/VA went repub and that’s why Brown took the kennedy seat. If they continue to ignore the issue the next election cycle is going to make the ‘94 election look like the good ol’ days.

103 Soap_Man  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:34:51am

re: #83 badger1970

Reagan is dead.

That won’t stop ‘em.

Zombie Reagan Raised From Grave To Lead GOP

104 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:34:53am

re: #76 Mad Al-Jaffee

There’s a new Facebook group called something like “I wonder if this poodle wearing a tin foil hat can get more fans than Glenn Beck.”

No way! I’m joining!

105 lawhawk  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:35:01am

re: #74 trendsurfer

That Times article actually ignores that $787 billion (really $1.3 trillion and counting including interest) in Obama’s stimulus package. Obama’s favorable budgeting includes allowing most of the Bush tax cuts to expire (and that’s treated as a cost - to the government).

There’s plenty of disingenous stuff out there on both sides, but Obama’s spending is out of control; spending under Bush was out of control - and that doesn’t include the Iraq/Afghan military ops.

Government spending is out of control - from the fed on down to local levels and no one can afford the consequences. So everyone is apparently trying to push the solutions off into the future - delaying and deferring pension payments, refinancing debt and extending obligations, and playing around the margins with tax “relief” all while government spending continues.

Even where politicians say that they’re going to cut spending - or even freeze spending, they come under attack as in NJ where Gov. Christie called for a spending freeze demanding that localities spend down their rainy day funds to pay for the rest of the school year - and the unions and Democrats call that a massive education cut. The state is bleeding in the red and has a $2 billion (and that’s probably optimistic) deficit. NJ isn’t even in the worst shape; that’s CA; NY isn’t far behind. All states pretty much had their fiscal situation papered over last year with the stimulus package, but the aid isn’t going to be available this year. That meant states got to continue padding their budgets and maintaining their spending (or increased it) even as revenues dropped off a cliff.

106 Gang of One  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:36:31am

re: #89 Olsonist

It’s the ever polite Miss Manners.

Mandy is quoting from Alice’s Restuarant, not being snarky, Olsonist. For true, friend!

107 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:36:40am

re: #105 lawhawk

Be mindful, when advocating cutting spending, not to be penny-wise and pound-foolish.

Overspending is bad. But so is not fixing a problem before it becomes far more expensive— and winding up having to fix in anyway in the end.

108 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:36:57am

re: #105 lawhawk

The state of Oregon has already passed a tax increase—on businesses and the wealthy.

I’m hoping that I’m wrong, and that this won’t adversely affect the unemployment rate.

109 tradewind  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:37:25am

re: #105 lawhawk

The Times article actually ignores…..

It’s their motto, remember? ’ All the News that Fits, We Print’.//
110 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:38:01am

re: #108 EmmmieG

The state of Oregon has already passed a tax increase—on businesses and the wealthy.

I’m hoping that I’m wrong, and that this won’t adversely affect the unemployment rate.

How does one qualify “wealthy”?

111 fizzlogic  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:38:16am

re: #101 Gang of One

I pretty much quit listening to Rush back around 2001. He had always been a social-con but it became too unbearable for me around that time.

112 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:38:20am

re: #110 MandyManners

How does one qualify “wealthy”?

Over 250,000.

113 badger1970  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:38:38am

re: #99 marjoriemoon

If McCain/Palin were in power, they would be Gods whether they brought unemployment down or whether it went to 20% or more. Why? Because no one said shit while Bush played his fiddle and the government came crashing down around him.


Your first point, I doubt it, people like their wallets fat and your second point, W was criticized by the right since the beginning of his second term. “Compassionate Conservativism” ring a bell?

114 tradewind  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:38:45am

PIMF #109… only the first line should have been blockquoted….my bad.

115 celticdragon  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:38:46am
And in Indiana, Richard Behney, a Republican Senate candidate, told Tea Party supporters what he would do if the 2010 elections did not produce results to his liking: “I’m cleaning my guns and getting ready for the big show. And I’m serious about that, and I bet you are, too.”

Oh my God.

Did I just read that from a candidate for the US Senate??

What the fuck kind of country did we become?

116 baier  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:39:09am

re: #108 EmmmieG

The state of Oregon has already passed a tax increase—on businesses and the wealthy.

I’m hoping that I’m wrong, and that this won’t adversely affect the unemployment rate.

They tried that in NY state and collected less than they projected because many people left the state. Good luck with that Oregon.

117 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:39:24am

re: #115 celticdragon

Apparently, he thinks he’s Annie Oakley.

118 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:39:24am

re: #68 Gang of One

I believe since William F. Buckley passed away, the conservative movement has become unglued. He was the sane voice of American conservatism. Nobody has been able, IMHO, to fill his shoes.

Krauthamer’s pretty good.

119 Olsonist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:40:02am

re: #108 EmmmieG

The state of Oregon has already passed a tax increase—on businesses and the wealthy.

I’m hoping that I’m wrong, and that this won’t adversely affect the unemployment rate.

I went up to Eugene for the Oregon/Cal game. I couldn’t believe Oregon. Everything worked. The highways were immaculate. The state looked fantastic.

120 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:40:14am

re: #112 EmmmieG

Over 250,000.

Dang.

Once they bleed them, when will they go after $150,000.00 and $70,000.00?

121 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:40:56am

re: #120 MandyManners

Dang.

Once they bleed them, when will they go after $150,000.00 and $70,000.00?

I’m actually way more concerned about the business tax. It could hurt small businesses, putting people out of work.

122 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:41:02am

re: #115 celticdragon

Oh my God.

Did I just read that from a candidate for the US Senate??

What the fuck kind of country did we become?

One in which any kind of nut can run for office.

Same as it ever was.

123 Gang of One  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:41:15am

re: #115 celticdragon

Oh my God.

Did I just read that from a candidate for the US Senate??

What the fuck kind of country did we become?

I think once upon a time these types were benignly called Angry White Males®. Now they are making much more noise and they are waving their guns. This is troublesome.

124 Gang of One  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:41:44am

re: #118 Mad Al-Jaffee

Krauthamer’s pretty good.

Yes, I can’t believe I missed him.

125 Olsonist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:41:55am

re: #112 EmmmieG

That’s the top 1.5% roughly.

126 MandyManners  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:42:06am

re: #121 EmmmieG

I’m actually way more concerned about the business tax. It could hurt small businesses, putting people out of work.

True.

127 baier  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:42:57am

re: #125 Olsonist

That’s the top 1.5% roughly.

They deserve it///

128 celticdragon  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:43:33am

re: #118 Mad Al-Jaffee

Krauthamer’s pretty good.

Sure, when it comes to justifying taking #10 drill bits to the kneecaps of people we bought from an Afghan drug warlord who claims they are “terrorists” he captured…

Krauthammer is all over that.

About all I can really say is that he does seem to believe in AGW. Otherwise, meh.

129 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:43:34am

re: #125 Olsonist


See #121. Small businesses hire people. People who are currently out of work and therefore, contributing nothing to the tax base.

130 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:44:14am

re: #103 Soap_Man

That won’t stop ‘em.

Zombie Reagan Raised From Grave To Lead GOP

OT, but two recent Onion News Network stories had me cracking up recently:

[Link: www.theonion.com…]

[Link: www.theonion.com…]

They’re not just funny stories, but incredible parodies of tv news.

131 abbyadams  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:44:37am

re: #95 Gang of One

I think we could safely eliminate Rich “Little Starbursts” Lowry - or has he reneged on fawning over Palin?

132 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:44:40am

re: #121 EmmmieG

Personally, I’m for reducing corporate taxes to zero, and addressing profits through income tax.

What is the particular business tax they’ve passed? Google fails me.

133 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:44:54am

re: #129 EmmmieG

This is not my view of their worth as people, but rather an assessment of the tax situation.

134 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:45:09am

re: #106 Gang of One

Mandy is quoting from Alice’s Restuarant, not being snarky, Olsonist. For true, friend!

Father rapers!

135 tradewind  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:45:17am

re: #96 Killgore Trout

The Tea Parties are bad enough on their own but it’s amazingly stupid for the Republican party to participate in this nonsense.


Not much different from the Democrats to a man ( but for Biden) bowing and scraping at the nutroots convention. Doesn’t mean they were going to nominate one of them, and the same goes for the Republicans. You won’t see a Tea Party nominee come out of the RNC.
Not for nothing, but it wasn’t the right wing bloggers that Evan Bayh (D, retiring) said he was sick of .

136 baier  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:45:38am

re: #128 celticdragon

Sure, when it comes to justifying taking #10 drill bits to the kneecaps of people we bought from an Afghan drug warlord who claims they are “terrorists” he captured…

Krauthammer is all over that.

About all I can really say is that he does seem to believe in AGW. Otherwise, meh.


When did he say he wanted to drill people’s knees?

137 cliffster  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:45:57am

re: #132 Obdicut

Personally, I’m for reducing corporate taxes to zero, and addressing profits through income tax.

The CPA lobbyists will never allow that to happen. There’s big money in complex corporate tax code.

138 celticdragon  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:46:07am

re: #122 MandyManners

One in which any kind of nut can run for office.

Same as it ever was.

All the same, I can’t recall any recent incidents where actual violence was threatened by a politician in the event of an unfavorable election. That is not the sign of a healthy polity nor a mature democratic system. That is a sign of very bad trouble.

139 tradewind  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:46:18am

re: #116 baier
Nicknamed the ’ Kill that Golden Goose ’ tax.

140 lawhawk  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:46:41am

re: #107 Obdicut

Well, that’s the problem isn’t it - agreeing on what’s “overspending” isn’t going to happen since you’re going to go after someone’s pet project. And on areas where we can agree that spending is critical (roads, education, etc.), determining what an appropriate amount is hard to do.

141 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:46:48am

re: #137 cliffster

And with the recent passage of the corporate-spending on campaigns bill, we can expect lobbyists to have a larger effect than ever before.

Yay.

142 Jadespring  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:47:07am

This article couldn’t have come out at a better time. Elseboard I’ve been trying to explain some things about the Tea Party movement. Not only does a save a whole lot of time in sourcing, it adds a lot of things I didn’t know and really backs up some points I’ve been making and that a few are arguing against. (like that it is a moderate, in the middle of political spectrum, not extremist and not a right wing thing)

This is a good time to thank LGF in general too. I would not have a good grasp of whats going on beyond what the average mainstream reader is exposed too without out all of the info that’s been posted and discussed here.

So thanks Charles and thanks everyone else. You all rock!

143 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:47:40am

re: #140 lawhawk

Well, no, it’s not about pet projects that I’m talking. It’s about times when we clearly, obviously have to spend money down the road, or in another area, if we don’t spend it now.

144 What, me worry?  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:47:46am

re: #113 badger1970

Your first point, I doubt it, people like their wallets fat and your second point, W was criticized by the right since the beginning of his second term. “Compassionate Conservativism” ring a bell?

Kinda sorta. His ratings dropped. People were disappointed, but they didn’t form huge groups, dress in tri-corner hats and rally down at the Town Hall. Why not? All of a sudden today it’s bothering them? In 2002, the housing market started to climb out of control. One of the key reasons we are where we are today. Nothing from the Right. Nothing.

145 Gang of One  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:48:05am

re: #138 celticdragon

All the same, I can’t recall any recent incidents where actual violence was threatened by a politician in the event of an unfavorable election. That is not the sign of a healthy polity nor a mature democratic system. That is a sign of very bad trouble.

Reminds me of every local PRIista hack running against PRDista or PANista candidate whilst living in Mexico City.

146 Lidane  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:48:39am

re: #79 Olsonist

Fail. I was antiwar WRT Iraq and I am no communist. Silicon Valley and American free enterprise have treated me very well, thank you.

Same here.

I opposed the war in Iraq (but NOT the one in Afghanistan), vote anything but Republican, and yet I’m quite happy living in this country, and with capitalism / free market enterprise.

147 wrenchwench  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:48:41am

re: #142 Jadespring

Be sure to sample the tags at the bottom of each post for additional info.

148 tradewind  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:51:03am

re: #144 marjoriemoon
In 2002, the housing market started to climb out of control.
Thank our friends at the Fed and its enablers like Barney Frank, who insisted that people who should be renting be artificially permitted to buy.

149 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:52:17am

re: #132 Obdicut

Measure 67

[Link: ballotpedia.org…]

Here’s the bottom line: $255 million to be raised over the next year from businesses. $255 million to go to education, health care, public services, and “other services.”

The question is: How many jobs will this cost? I can’t imagine that businesses in Oregon just have $255 million sitting around they weren’t using.

150 baier  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:52:34am

re: #140 lawhawk

Well, that’s the problem isn’t it - agreeing on what’s “overspending” isn’t going to happen since you’re going to go after someone’s pet project. And on areas where we can agree that spending is critical (roads, education, etc.), determining what an appropriate amount is hard to do.

That’s one of the main reasons I prefer tax cuts to government spending. Tax cuts are less controversial, but because of the Average Propensity to Save, less efficient. I also believe tax cuts are more moral.
But as far as government projects go, we really do need an improved electric transmission grid, that would have been a great use of stimulus money. But it didn’t happen…

151 Olsonist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:52:51am

re: #148 tradewind

In 2002, the housing market started to climb out of control.
Thank our friends at the Fed and its enablers like Barney Frank, who insisted that people who should be renting be artificially permitted to buy.

Fail. In 2002, the Republicans were the House majority and Barney Frank had exactly zero power over anything.

152 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:53:07am

re: #96 Killgore Trout

The Tea Parties are bad enough on their own but it’s amazingly stupid for the Republican party to participate in this nonsense. No politician even remotely connected to the Tea Parties will have any hope of a future in politics. It’s suicide for the Republican party.

yeah, look how badly brown lost in MA….wait, what?

153 idioma  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:53:47am

I don’t see it, what is so extreme about the tea party?
///
What they want seems pretty simple:

1) Return this country to abiding by the constitution - not the real one of course, but the one that most teabaggers think exists.
2) Get the bible back in the classroom where it belongs - because the teabagger constitution doesn’t separate church and state.
3) Let freedom ring - unless you are black, gay, jewish, secular, liberal, a member of the media, a school teacher, federally employed, or want vaccinations.
4) Family values - A woman’s place is in the home… or holding a sign with a racial slur.
5) The government works for me - Unless the majority of americans want something like healthcare reform, we won’t let that happen. We believe in protecting wealthy insurance executives.
6) Be a good Christian - WWJD? Bring a gun to your protest.

154 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:54:31am

re: #148 tradewind

In 2002, the housing market started to climb out of control.
Thank our friends at the Fed and its enablers like Barney Frank, who insisted that people who should be renting be artificially permitted to buy.

Ooh! We haven’t killed this zombie in almost four days!

Remember, kids, over-leveraging and credit default swaps had nothing to do with things - it was only those poor brown people who tried to buy houses. Also, the GOP in charge of Congress from ‘94 till ‘08 were living in terror of a queen from the minority party and couldn’t stop anything he wanted to do.

155 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:54:33am

re: #99 marjoriemoon

I disagree with that. Republicans stopped going to the polls in ‘04, they’ve lost their majority because they wouldn’t control spending. This isn’t a new phenomena, the only difference is the melt down increased the anger levels.

156 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:54:48am

re: #149 EmmmieG

Okay. While I’m against it for other reasons, most of the weight of the tax is falling on businesses with profits above $500,000, so I don’t think small businesses are in much danger with it.

157 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:55:08am

Americans … have voluntary associations of a thousand kinds: religious, moral, serious, futile, general or restricted, enormous or diminutive. … If it is proposed to inculcate some truth or to foster some feeling by the encouragement of a great example, they found a society.
— Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America, 1835

158 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:55:57am

re: #152 RogueOne

yeah, look how badly brown lost in MA…wait, what?

Yeah! It’s not like the Dems ran the world’s worst candidate or anything (well, second - Alan Keyes may own that one).

159 Olsonist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:57:28am

re: #158 torrentprime

Yeah! It’s not like the Dems ran the world’s worst candidate or anything (well, second - Alan Keyes may own that one).

One thing I liked about when Howard Dean was running the show was his ability to recruit excellent candidates.

160 cliffster  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:57:36am

re: #151 Olsonist

Fail. In 2002, the Republicans were the House majority and Barney Frank had exactly zero power over anything.

As we’ve seen, a majority does not ensure your agenda will get through. Bills often die in committees chaired by members of the minority party, as happened several times with finance reform bills in 2002-2006

161 Gang of One  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:57:48am

re: #158 torrentprime

Yeah! It’s not like the Dems ran the world’s worst candidate or anything (well, second - Alan Keyes may own that one).

Yeah, it’s not like the Dems thought any other Dem was entitled to Kennedy’s seat.

162 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:58:12am

re: #96 Killgore Trout

The Tea Parties are bad enough on their own but it’s amazingly stupid for the Republican party to participate in this nonsense. No politician even remotely connected to the Tea Parties will have any hope of a future in politics. It’s suicide for the Republican party.

Some politicians will be true believers in the TPs. Most others will simply jogtrot to the front of the parade and hope to march into office. Some few of those will actually succeed. It isn’t a new thing, popular passions being exploited by canny operators for their own ends.

163 baier  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:58:27am

re: #156 Obdicut

Okay. While I’m against it for other reasons, most of the weight of the tax is falling on businesses with profits above $500,000, so I don’t think small businesses are in much danger with it.

Ridiculous.
A company that profits over $500,000 is more likely to be hiring.

164 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:58:30am

re: #156 Obdicut

The thing about Oregon is that all of the taxes are progressive, which sounds nice, but every time there is a recession, the schools take it in the shorts.

165 Lidane  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:58:35am

re: #151 Olsonist

Fail. In 2002 From 1994 to 2006, the Republicans were the House majority and Barney Frank had exactly zero power over anything.

FTFY.

The GOP also had control over the Senate for the same years, as well as the White House from 200—2008, yet we’re spending now more than we ever did before. It’s not something that can neatly be placed at Obama’s feet, or solely on the Democrats. The GOP played its part in this mess too.

166 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:58:44am

re: #158 torrentprime

Yeah! It’s not like the Dems ran the world’s worst candidate or anything (well, second - Alan Keyes may own that one).

I’ll give you that, she was a horrible candidate and deserved to lose, but people keep touting how this is all republican leaning anger going on and they’re missing the big point right in front of them. Independents are the ones that swing elections and right now the independents are pissed.

167 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 10:59:00am

re: #150 baier

That’s one of the main reasons I prefer tax cuts to government spending. Tax cuts are less controversial, but because of the Average Propensity to Save, less efficient. I also believe tax cuts are more moral.
But as far as government projects go, we really do need an improved electric transmission grid, that would have been a great use of stimulus money. But it didn’t happen…

Announced by President Obama during a visit to a solar energy facility in Arcadia, Fla., the grants consist of $ 3.4 billion for smart grid projects, spread across 49 states and the territory of Guam. This is three quarters of the amount announced initially in the stimulus package. The money will go directly to private companies, utilities, or equipment manufacturing.

169 idioma  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:00:28am

re: #164 EmmmieG

The thing about Oregon is that all of the taxes are progressive, which sounds nice, but every time there is a recession, the schools take it in the shorts.

Which is why I voted yes on 66 & 67. Even if I saw a hike in my own income taxes, I think it’s worth it to ensure stability in this state. With unemployment as high as it is I’m just glad to be making enough money to be taxed.

170 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:01:02am

re: #166 RogueOne

I’ll give you that, she was a horrible candidate and deserved to lose, but people keep touting how this is all republican leaning anger going on and they’re missing the big point right in front of them. Independents are the ones that swing elections and right now the independents are pissed.

I wasn’t aware anyone was disputing there is a lot of anger being spread. On the contrary, that’s the point - and the problem. When Republicans lie about Democratic policies for months, telling you someone is going to take your guns, kill your Grandma, and send your kids to re-education camps and teach them fisting, people tend to get angry. Tell you what - you get the lies from the right to stop, and we’ll see how angry people still are.

171 celticdragon  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:01:09am

re: #136 baier

When did he say he wanted to drill people’s knees?

When he talks about “harsh interrogation” and letting the CIA do whatever they want to “keep us safe”, what do you think he means??

Tickle them?

We can debate until doomsday whether waterboarding is torture (We executed Japanese soldiers for it, and the Norwegians executed Germans after WW II for exactly the same type of procedure we have acknowledged using…), but we have gone a hell of a lot further than waterboarding, and we all know that. So does Krauthammer. He is okay with that as long as we keep it out of the newspapers, and who cares if a taxi driver or a no name farmer’s kid get beaten to death in Bagram at the Salt Pit?

American Idol is on…


Ya know…I have absolutely no problem with wasting terrorist bastards on the field of battle. I giggle when I see footage from a Reaper Drone that lights up some idiot trying to place an IED. Another Darwin award!

Don’t tell me that we have to destroy our system of law in order to save it, however. Don’t tell me that we can torture people…to death…and still be an honorable nation. Don’t tell me, as some Republican congresscritters have actually tried….that the highest purpose of government is to protest us from harm.

No. Fuck no!

The purpose of government is to safeguard our liberty. Nothing else can really be guarenteed. Right now, the terrorists our winning, because we are defeating ourselves. Every pearl clutching bedwetter screaming about the underwear bomber must absolutely make Bin Laden laugh. Every demand that we suspend our laws or make INALIEABLE RIGHTS into AMERICAN WHITE PEOPLE ONLY RIGHTS is another propaganda victory for him, and a real loss for our constitutional Republic.

Krauthammer is part of that when he approves of torture and winks at the bodies that come out of the other side.

yes, he approves of kneecapping the occasional goatherd. After all, you can never really be sure if he isn’t hiding something.

172 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:01:22am

re: #163 baier

I’m sorry, what was ‘ridiculous’ about what I said?

re: #164 EmmmieG

Are you against progressive taxation in general?

173 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:01:54am

re: #168 baier

That’s not what I’m talking about, but thanks for playing.

So you were talking about different electrical grid upgrades?

174 baier  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:02:11am

re: #171 celticdragon

When he talks about “harsh interrogation” and letting the CIA do whatever they want to “keep us safe”, what do you think he means??

Why debate is? Let’s just put words in his mouth, because we know the kind of guy he really is.
///

175 Olsonist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:03:22am

re: #160 cliffster

As we’ve seen, a majority does not ensure your agenda will get through. Bills often die in committees chaired by members of the minority party, as happened several times with finance reform bills in 2002-2006

Fail. When and why would the Speaker of the House ever give the minority a chairmanship, even of a subcommittee?

Prove it with a quote.

176 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:04:03am

re: #160 cliffster

As we’ve seen, a majority does not ensure your agenda will get through. Bills often die in committees chaired by members of the minority party, as happened several times with finance reform bills in 2002-2006

So Barney Frank’s supposed ability to kill GOP legislation led to Democratic legislation being voted through by the majority GOP and signed by Bush?

177 celticdragon  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:04:32am

re: #174 baier

Why debate is? Let’s just put words in his mouth, because we know the kind of guy he really is.
///

How so? He has been one of the foremost proponents of torture. Are you claiming that he is actually an idiot who has no idea what he advocates for? Are we back to parsing the meaning of “is”?

178 baier  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:04:53am

re: #173 torrentprime

So you were talking about different electrical grid upgrades?

The actual transmission cables, his ‘stimulus’ only put 150 million for this for the entire US. That wouldn’t even cover NYC.
30% of all electricity created is lost through the transmission lines

179 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:05:15am

re: #170 torrentprime

I wasn’t aware anyone was disputing there is a lot of anger being spread. On the contrary, that’s the point - and the problem. When Republicans lie about Democratic policies for months, telling you someone is going to take your guns, kill your Grandma, and send your kids to re-education camps and teach them fisting, people tend to get angry. Tell you what - you get the lies from the right to stop, and we’ll see how angry people still are.

I’m going to say this for the thousandth time, this election is about spending. Not guns, not abortion, not civil rights, but spending. People can toss all the strawmen up they want but it isn’t going to change the issue. I would have thought that losing NJ & VA plus the kennedy seat might wake the dems up a little to the reality of the situation but I guess I was mistaken.

180 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:05:34am

re: #152 RogueOne

yeah, look how badly brown lost in MA…wait, what?

The GOP is assured a bounceback on the back of Obama’s having failed to Fix Everything in his first half-term. All common sense and political history says this will be theirs.

My advice would be to not let the Tea Party screw it up. Brown won largely on his own merits, and on economic angst. But NY-23 should serve as a warning of how lightly these folks will screw over well-positioned Republicans.

181 baier  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:06:00am

re: #177 celticdragon

How so? He has been one of the foremost proponents of torture. Are you claiming that he is actually an idiot who has no idea what he advocates for? Are we back to parsing the meaning of “is”?

Show me a quote where he says “I am a proponent of torture”.

182 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:06:03am

re: #172 Obdicut

There are 3 “big” taxes that states can use:

income tax—progressive
sales tax—regressive
property tax—progressive

While I love not having a sales tax, I have to admit that having two progressive taxes makes the state’s income unstable.

I’m not against progressive taxes; I’m for stability. I grew up across the river, in Washington, and so I’ve been watching this cycle for years. Prosperity—money comes in—new programs—recession—less money—programs get cut (schools get the most air time, for obvious reasons).

I don’t believe for a second that any measure that claims it will produce a rainy day fund will actually do that. Call me a cynic, but I’m used to the government spending irresponsibly, not responsibly.

183 Olsonist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:06:42am

re: #178 baier

The actual transmission cables, his ‘stimulus’ only put 150 million for this for the entire US. That wouldn’t even cover NYC.
30% of all electricity created is lost through the transmission lines

7%

184 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:06:58am

re: #160 cliffster

As we’ve seen, a majority does not ensure your agenda will get through. Bills often die in committees chaired by members of the minority party, as happened several times with finance reform bills in 2002-2006

Wait, I thought there was NO EXCUSE for the Democrats not doing anything they cared to do, on account of the supermajority. Now you tell us there’s more to it than that?

/

185 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:07:12am

re: #178 baier

The actual transmission cables, his ‘stimulus’ only put 150 million for this for the entire US. That wouldn’t even cover NYC.
30% of all electricity created is lost through the transmission lines

So when you said
“But as far as government projects go, we really do need an improved electric transmission grid, that would have been a great use of stimulus money. But it didn’t happen…”
you meant
“But as far as government projects go, we really do need [much more money to be spent on electrical grids than is presently happening. But the stimulus didn’t spend go far enough]…”

186 SixDegrees  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:07:48am
I’ve been wondering why the mainstream media have been so curiously uninterested in the bad craziness of the tea party movement…

Because it has little impact when it’s presented far from any election. Now that the midterm campaign season is ramping up to full throttle, look for much more such coverage to appear.

See “keeping your powder dry.”

187 baier  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:07:49am

re: #183 Olsonist

7%

In New York City it is 30%, we have transmission cables over 100 years old here.

188 baier  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:08:50am

re: #185 torrentprime

So when you said
“But as far as government projects go, we really do need an improved electric transmission grid, that would have been a great use of stimulus money. But it didn’t happen…”
you meant
“But as far as government projects go, we really do need [much more money to be spent on electrical grids than is presently happening. But the stimulus didn’t spend go far enough]…”

No, I’m saying the government wasted a shit load of money, there are some things that they could of done, but they didn’t. They blew it.
That’s what I’m saying.

189 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:08:52am

re: #95 Gang of One

Who is here for that? Victor Davis Hanson? Rich Lowry? Jonah Goldberg?
I thought Dennis Prager might take up some slack, but he dropped the ball with his open letter to Charles. I sometimes think Norman or John Podhoretz, but they’d be vilified by the Protocols of the Elders of Zion faction of the right.
It is to be pulling out one’s hair.

And yet, despite the lack of viable leadership in the GOP, the MSM and the polls seem to point to a looming 2010 electoral disaster for the Dems.
Ever weird…

190 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:09:27am

re: #182 EmmmieG

That all makes sense. Thank you.

As always, I’m for the following:

Every bill that passes in order to address any problem or actually, y’know, do something, rather than declaring June “National Peas Month”, needs to have a specific measurement attached to it. It needs to have a timeline it will achieve results in, and the ability to be re-examined and re-worked if the goals are not being met.

That’s my basic solution to getting government spending right. It doesn’t solve the whole problem, but I feel it’d be a huge first step.

191 Olsonist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:09:27am

re: #187 baier

I see your point.

192 ED 209  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:09:32am

re: #20 SanFranciscoZionist

re: #14 marjoriemoon

I don’t understand. Why are they angry now? Where were they when the recession started years ago. When the Bush government was getting bloated and overgrown. No where. If McCain had been elected, they wouldn’t exist, but our problems surely would still exist.


That’s a key issue for me. They act as though they woke up one day in a brand new America.

What happened is that the new boss was the same as the old boss except the old boss smiled, nodded and ignored, whereas the new boss frowned and ignored. They’re feelings are hurt and someone’s gonna pay, dammit!

193 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:10:35am

re: #180 SanFranciscoZionist

Brown ran with the support of the local tea parties. I know a lot of people here are freaked about a lot of the participants ties to nefarious organizations but IMHO most of the people out there picketing are fed up moderates and they will swing this election cycle. Repubs aren’t going to win because of what a wonderful job they’ve done but because the presidents party always loses seats in mid-terms and the independents don’t have any other options to vent their anger. This time though it’s going to be a dramatic swing. If the dems don’t pull their heads out of their butts and quit erecting strawman arguments their majority is going to go down the hole.

194 SixDegrees  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:10:48am

re: #184 SanFranciscoZionist

Wait, I thought there was NO EXCUSE for the Democrats not doing anything they cared to do, on account of the supermajority. Now you tell us there’s more to it than that?

/

cliffster is incorrect here. Party chairs are awarded to the majority party, by seniority. It’s true that many bills die in committee, but the minority party has little say over such results. At best, they can, to a limited extent, delay progress through committee, but not indefinitely and not for very long, for that matter.

195 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:10:56am

re: #179 RogueOne

I’m going to say this for the thousandth time, this election is about spending. Not guns, not abortion, not civil rights, but spending. People can toss all the strawmen up they want but it isn’t going to change the issue. I would have thought that losing NJ & VA plus the kennedy seat might wake the dems up a little to the reality of the situation but I guess I was mistaken.

So the election isn’t about what the GOP is actually talking about and telling people is happening, it’s about the totally hypocritical stance the GOP has taken since they started caring about spending in Nov 08. The fear-mongering is totally irrelevant! Honest!

196 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:12:38am

re: #190 Obdicut

I would add that any tax increase should spell out EXACTLY what the money is going towards, and not be changeable. Back when David Edwards was pushing the rainy day fund/taking the corporate kicker, I had a petitioner arrive at my doorstep talking about that measure and “affordable healthcare.”

If they wanted to corporate kicker for health care, it should have been done up front and honestly, but this group was going to try to get the money to go to something different than the proposal.

Dishonest.

197 Olsonist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:13:25am

re: #194 SixDegrees

cliffster is incorrect here. Party chairs are awarded to the majority party, by seniority. It’s true that many bills die in committee, but the minority party has little say over such results. At best, they can, to a limited extent, delay progress through committee, but not indefinitely and not for very long, for that matter.

I think calling him incorrect might be praising him with faint damnation. The purpose of the minority is to make a quorum.

198 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:14:12am

re: #196 EmmmieG

Well, that’s a little trickier, but i take your point. I don’t think an income tax hike should say exactly where the money is going towards, for example. I do think any special tax should, and should have a sunset.

199 Lidane  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:14:30am

re: #189 Spare O’Lake

And yet, despite the lack of viable leadership in the GOP, the MSM and the polls seem to point to a looming 2010 electoral disaster for the Dems.
Ever weird…

That’s because the Democrats, as usual, have an uncanny ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. They won big in 2008 then got stupid (again) and are now just as disorganized and fractured as they ever were. Seeing them lose seats in 2010 won’t be a surprise.

The problem is, the Republicans that will replace them are either pandering to the Tea Party lunatics, or belong to that movement. It’s not that the Dems will lose seats. That’s inevitable. It’s that the opposition that is coming down the pipeline is tapping into some truly scary and/or dangerous ideas.

200 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:15:35am

re: #198 Obdicut

Well, that’s a little trickier, but i take your point. I don’t think an income tax hike should say exactly where the money is going towards, for example. I do think any special tax should, and should have a sunset.

If the tax was “sold” with the idea that it would go to program A, it should go to program A.

201 exelwood  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:16:15am

re: #19 Stonemason

and my point was that the media is soon going to go after tea parties in a way they never went after the far left as you and Zombie did when they were out in force.
Exposing the insanity on both sides is important.


I don’t know if demonization has quite the power it did ten years (certainly not twenty) ago. Everybody on the other side is crazy, evil and insane is the narrative but it’s a much tougher sell now.

The internet may turn out to be the great political homogenizer after all. It’s just too easy to look at the reality of both sides and find the truth in there somewhere.

202 celticdragon  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:16:29am

re: #181 baier

Show me a quote where he says “I am a proponent of torture”.

Torture is an impermissible evil. Except under two circumstances. The first is the ticking time bomb. An innocent’s life is at stake. The bad guy you have captured possesses information that could save this life. He refuses to divulge. In such a case, the choice is easy. Even John McCain, the most admirable and estimable torture opponent, says openly that in such circumstances, “You do what you have to do.” And then take the responsibility.

The second exception to the no-torture rule is the extraction of information from a high-value enemy in possession of high-value information likely to save lives. This case lacks the black-and-white clarity of the ticking time bomb scenario. We know less about the length of the fuse or the nature of the next attack. But we do know the danger is great.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com…]

Uh huh. When you read accounts from Iraq, the second condition Krauthammer lays out gets twisted beyond recognition. Anybody can be made to fit his “likely to save lives” scenario. You know it, and so does everybody else here. When introduced as an actual doctrine, our experience has been that torture and mistreatment of prisoners quickly spreads well beyond its’ initial purpose, and poisons the entire detainment and interrogation system. Krauthmeer wrote the above stament in 2209, which is well after the expose of Abu Ghraib and the courts martial of soldiers in Afghanistan who beat prisoners to death. he is aware of these facts, and continues to advocate policies that would continue to lead to similar outcomes.

Hence, he is either an idiot…

or the murders by torture and defacement of our national honr is something he is okay with.

You decide.

203 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:17:31am

re: #200 EmmmieG

Agreed.

204 celticdragon  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:17:44am

Sorry about the typos, since I am writing quickly. Off to chem lab.

205 maryatexitzero  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:20:26am

re: #35 Charles

Yes, there are extremists on both sides, but the far right’s extremists are more dangerous because they’re heavily armed and they’re openly talking about violence

Both sides embrace their lunatic fringe, both sides make excuses for violence committed by ‘their side’. Neither side is worth defending or supporting.
From a 2005 Washington Post article describing a lefty cop killer and the Far Left Jihad:

On Nov. 19, 2002, Officer David Mobilio of the Red Bluff Police Department was working the graveyard shift when…the 31-year-old husband and father of a toddler was shot three times, twice in the back and once in the head, at very close range….It was a killing that might have never been solved… until a confession appeared on the Internet. Six days after the shooting, a manifesto appeared on more than a dozen Web sites operated by the left-leaning Independent Media Center.

It began: “Hello Everyone, my name’s Andy. I killed a Police Officer in Red Bluff, California in a motion to bring attention to, and halt, the police-state tactics that have come to be used throughout our country. Now I’m coming forward, to explain that this killing was also an action against corporate irresponsibility.”..

…In the days after his manifesto showed up online, the Independent Media Center sites where it appeared were alive with messages debating the act.
A writer in Seattle urged “solidarity with cop killers” and celebrated that “another one bites the dust.” A poster in Washington, D.C., suggested that Mickel, with his military service, might be a government “agent provocateur” engaged in “a disinformation ploy” to discredit the aims of the left. Somebody in Oregon wrote, “I’m not worried about the dead cop — [expletive] him.” Instead, the message continued, “I’m worried about playing into their hands. Shooting that cop will be remembered as the first major step in publicly criminalizing anti-corporate activism.”..

…The angry rhetoric — the applause for cop-killing — harks back to the days when anti-government militias and McVeigh arose from the far-right fringe…

Anti-corporate violence is Indymedia’s core value - when they’re not threatening locals who disagree with them (something Portland Indymedia was famous for)

There are the earth first types, like Craig “Critter” Marshall who said “..there is no easy solution..for life to survive as we know it, millions of people are going to have to die. It’s sad to say that, but it’s true. Millions of people are already dying – it’s just gonna have to start happening here” And there’s biologist Eric Pianka who said in a March 3, 2006 that “overpopulation since the onset of industrialisation was destroying the planet[1] and that the Earth would not survive unless its population was reduced to one tenth of the present number. He suggested that the planet would be “better off” if the human population were to crash, and that a mutant strain of Ebola (which has up to a 90% mortality rate) would be the most efficient means. After he finished his address Pianka was given a standing ovation.” (via Wiki)

Since he’s a biologist, Pianka is the most alarming member of this side of the lunatic fringe. People like him are ‘armed’ and very dangeous. Another interesting quote from Pianka: “Good terrorists would be taking [Ebola Reston and Ebola Zaire] so that they had microbes they could let loose on the Earth that would kill 90 percent of people.””

We also can’t forget the leftists who were (and are) also fans of Alex Jones’ Infowars, like members of the International Solidarity Movement (friends of Hamas) and the truthers. .. [more..]

206 maryatexitzero  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:21:31am

..and there’s also Amnesty International, the ‘human rights’ organization currently working with the Taliban.

Both sides are capable of the worst sort of reprehensible behavior and neither is worth anyone’s valuable time.

207 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:24:22am

re: #195 torrentprime

Ask yourself this, why did VA, NJ, and the kennedy seat go repub? Was it the fault of Beck/Limbaugh/NRA/NRL/CoC? or was it because of spending and the economy? The only people focusing on the other issues are beck, limbaugh and their detractors. Everyone else is focused on the economy.

208 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:29:52am

re: #64 RogueOne

We don’t know that. Remember how we were told this package would keep unemployment down? How did that work out? The stimulus package was nothing more than a pet project payment plan. 90% of the public is coming to that realization and the party in power is going to be the one to pay the price. If the parties were reversed it wouldn’t change anything.

Well, based on the amount of research showing that without the stimulus the unemployment rate would be higher, apparently it’s doing precisely what they said it would. I realize it was watered down by conservadems and the GOP, and it should have been bigger and better targeted, but it is having the effect they said it would.

209 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:32:02am

re: #207 RogueOne

Ask yourself this, why did VA, NJ, and the kennedy seat go repub? Was it the fault of Beck/Limbaugh/NRA/NRL/CoC? or was it because of spending and the economy? The only people focusing on the other issues are beck, limbaugh and their detractors and their audiences, which we know are big and getting bigger because the right keeps trumpeting Beck’s/ FOX’s/ Limbaugh’s ratings. Everyone else is focused on the economy.

FTFY.

210 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:33:02am

re: #207 RogueOne

I’m sorry, but the spending thing is worked into so many other ideological issues that I don’t get how you’re saying that it’s the focus of ‘everyone else’.

I have seen Tea Partiers talk about a return to Christianity, against government health insurance, against immigrants, against abortion, etc. etc.

I also think that tons of elected GOP officials, like Bachmann, have been talking about issues other than spending. In fact, I know it. So no, everyone else is not focusing on the economy.

211 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:41:33am

re: #210 Obdicut


I also think that tons of elected GOP officials, like Bachmann, have been talking about issues other than spending. In fact, I know it.

Such as calling for witchhunts investigations into anti-American sentiments and traitors in the House. Argh.

212 Olsonist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:49:25am

re: #207 RogueOne

Ask yourself this, why did VA, NJ, and the kennedy seat go repub? Was it the fault of Beck/Limbaugh/NRA/NRL/CoC? or was it because of spending and the economy? The only people focusing on the other issues are beck, limbaugh and their detractors. Everyone else is focused on the economy.

Number one reason for losing a seat is bad candidates. People in power usually want their buddies to get elected, regardless of their political abilities. These are usually terrible candidates.

213 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:50:05am

re: #212 Olsonist

That is one way the Democrats are consistently failing.

214 Vambo  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:53:14am

“We mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.”

WHUT!! that sounds like socialism!! spread the wealth?!

215 Olsonist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 11:53:33am

re: #213 Obdicut

Candidate recruitment is job one of the party leader, and Howard Dean was the gold standard in that job.

216 exelwood  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:00:29pm

re: #212 Olsonist

Number one reason for losing a seat is bad candidates. People in power usually want their buddies to get elected, regardless of their political abilities. These are usually terrible candidates.

This excuse to me has an almost “whistling through the graveyard” quality to it. I know it’s part of the punditry’s narrative but we’re all pals here, don’t you think the massive leftward lurch might have a teeny bit to do with it?

217 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:01:43pm

re: #210 Obdicut

I’m sorry, but the spending thing is worked into so many other ideological issues that I don’t get how you’re saying that it’s the focus of ‘everyone else’.

I have seen Tea Partiers talk about a return to Christianity, against government health insurance, against immigrants, against abortion, etc. etc.

I also think that tons of elected GOP officials, like Bachmann, have been talking about issues other than spending. In fact, I know it. So no, everyone else is not focusing on the economy.

Where did Christie or the Brown platforms mention anything about Christianity, abortion, or gun rights? You guys are sound like bad apologists grasping at straws looking for the reason why the Dem party is taking a beating when the answer is so obvious and yet you refuse to admit it. Someone is going to make a killing on reprinting those old “it’s the economy, stupid” signs from 1992.

I’ll say this one more time, the independents are fleeing the dem side of the aisle in droves. What other evidence do you need? Brown alone almost received 70% of the independent vote. They aren’t doing it because of their concern over unborn children or their right-to-carry cards. This election cycle is about spending and the economy. The dems can try to tar the right with all the tea party fringe agenda they want and it isn’t going to help.

218 fizzlogic  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:03:32pm

re: #105 lawhawk

That Times article actually ignores that $787 billion (really $1.3 trillion and counting including interest) in Obama’s stimulus package. Obama’s favorable budgeting includes allowing most of the Bush tax cuts to expire (and that’s treated as a cost - to the government).

The NYT article says, “About 7 percent comes from the stimulus bill that Mr. Obama signed in February. And only 3 percent comes from Mr. Obama’s agenda on health care, education, energy and other areas.” So pardon me that I’m a bit confused you say the article didn’t include the stimulus. But yes, Bush’s tax cuts were, and are, considered a budget cost. Just as the tax cuts which were included in the dreaded stimulus are also counted as a cost.

219 Vambo  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:04:12pm

re: #32 RogueOne

They were upset over the bush spending, me included. I don’t know how folks can forget that. Remember all the “porkbusters” crap? The difference in the anger level is mostly due to the economic meltdown we’ve experienced over the last 18 months.

I remember general dissatisfaction with Bush from the right.

I do NOT remember tea party-style rallies or anything similar to teabagger behavior, but I’d like to know more — you got any links or whatnot?

220 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:04:44pm

re: #217 RogueOne

Where did Christie or the Brown platforms mention anything about Christianity, abortion, or gun rights? You guys are sound like bad apologists grasping at straws looking for the reason why the Dem party is taking a beating when the answer is so obvious and yet you refuse to admit it.

You’re being rather more personal than usual, Rogue.

I’ll say this one more time, the independents are fleeing the dem side of the aisle in droves. What other evidence do you need? Brown alone almost received 70% of the independent vote. They aren’t doing it because of their concern over unborn children or their right-to-carry cards. This election cycle is about spending and the economy. The dems can try to tar the right with all the tea party fringe agenda they want and it isn’t going to help.

I have managed to understand your argument. However, ignoring the actual candidates and instead focusing only on a single, solitary issue as explanation is, to me, insufficient. I disagree with you, but I really do understand what you’re saying.

221 Vambo  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:06:51pm

re: #217 RogueOne


I’ll say this one more time, the independents are fleeing the dem side of the aisle in droves.

I don’t think you really want to know why.

I’m friends with uber-liberals who would curl your hair, and they’re “leaving” the Democrats (and getting fed up with Obama) because he isn’t pushing the liberal agenda hard enough.

222 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:08:29pm

re: #220 Obdicut

I didn’t intend my comment to sound personal, I apologize. If you’re too young to remember the Clinton campaign motto was “It’s the economy, stupid”.

We’re going to have to disagree on this but the good news is in less than 9 months we’ll know who’s right.

223 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:10:00pm

re: #221 Vambo

I don’t think you really want to know why.

I’m friends with uber-liberals who would curl your hair, and they’re “leaving” the Democrats (and getting fed up with Obama) because he isn’t pushing the liberal agenda hard enough.

I’m certain there is a percentage of the liberal base that feels that way but it’s not like they were coming out to vote for a republican anyway. Of the independents that voted in the MA race, Brown received over 2/3’s of those votes. There is no way the dems are going to have a prayer this cycle unless they do something about the bleeding.

224 tradewind  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:12:20pm

re: #221 Vambo
Well, with any luck, they will get their wish, as Evan Bayh called it this morning: ’ Nothing but pure Democrats, ….in the minority’.

225 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:12:25pm

re: #223 RogueOne

I’m certain there is a percentage of the liberal base that feels that way but it’s not like they were coming out to vote for a republican anyway. Of the independents that voted in the MA race, Brown received over 2/3’s of those votes. There is no way the dems are going to have a prayer this cycle unless they do something about the bleeding.

And will the rest of the GOP candidates support abortion rights and believe that gay marriage is ‘settled law’, as Brown did?
If you’re going to focus on Brown so much, you need to look at all of his positions. Is a pro-choice, pro-gay Republican going to be the new norm from the GOP? Promise?

226 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:13:25pm

re: #222 RogueOne

I don’t think Republicans are, or are going to, run with “It’s the Economy, stupid”, because they’re worried that it’s going to substantially improve.

I do think they’ll continue to attack the stimulus while accepting its funds, though.

227 Baier  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:19:06pm

re: #202 celticdragon

“Torture is an impermissible evil”

I would not say he is proponent. I think you are putting words into his mouth.

228 Lidane  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:21:01pm

re: #225 torrentprime

Is a pro-choice, pro-gay Republican going to be the new norm from the GOP? Promise?

God, don’t I wish.

I’d love to see pro-gay, pro-choice, pro-science, pro-intellectual Republicans become the norm, but that won’t happen in my lifetime.

Of course, by the same token, I’d love a Democratic party that isn’t completely disorganized and fractured, and to win the Powerball. I’m not going to get those, either. *sigh*

229 Vambo  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:22:39pm

re: #223 RogueOne

230 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:22:41pm

re: #225 torrentprime

re: #226 Obdicut

I don’t really think the republicans have to do anything to pick up seats. IMO, People aren’t going to vote for the repubs because they’ve done a wonderful job but because they want the party in power to pay. The only thing the repub candidates have going for them is they didn’t vote for the stimulus package.

231 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:22:42pm

re: #227 Baier

When someone says ‘impermissible except’, they’re not being honest.

232 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:23:18pm

re: #230 RogueOne

But they are taking the money from the stimulus package and bragging about bringing it home.

I’m always amazed by how much voters reward that sort of hypocrisy.

233 Lidane  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:25:28pm

re: #232 Obdicut

But they are taking the money from the stimulus package and bragging about bringing it home.

I’m always amazed by how much voters reward that sort of hypocrisy.

NIMBY is a powerful motivator.

Everyone hates Congress except for their guy, because he brings in millions to the district and provides jobs.

234 Vambo  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:25:43pm

mah post, it got ated.

re: #223 RogueOne

Of the independents that voted in the MA race, Brown received over 2/3’s of those votes.

just curious how you arrive at this figure. also, aren’t the Tea Party considered independent, and frequently priding themselves on being supported be a majority of independent voters?

235 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:26:10pm

re: #232 Obdicut

Politics is hypocrisy.

236 torrentprime  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:26:59pm

re: #230 RogueOne

re: #226 Obdicut

I don’t really think the republicans have to do anything to pick up seats. IMO, People aren’t going to vote for the repubs because they’ve done a wonderful job but because they want the party in power to pay. The only thing the repub candidates have going for them is they didn’t vote for the stimulus package.

“Throw the bums out” is always a powerful narrative, I agree.

Hypothetical time - what if the job market is turned around by, say, October or so? Do you think “the average voter” will still want to punish the Democrats for spending?

237 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:28:12pm

re: #234 Vambo


just curious how you arrive at this figure. also, aren’t the Tea Party considered independent, and frequently priding themselves on being supported be a majority of independent voters?

I posted a link the day after the election, there was only one exit poll I could find and you had to do the math yourself. The only reason I remember was I had done the math incorrectly and someone “helped” me correct it the next day. I’ll try to find it again.

238 Baier  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:34:13pm

re: #231 Obdicut

When someone says ‘impermissible except’, they’re not being honest.

When someone says there is not an “except” they are being naive.

239 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:36:14pm

re: #238 Baier

No, sorry. That’s a cynical acceptance of doing evil in government. I reject torturing anyone. I don’t believe it works, and I don’t believe it’s moral. There is no except.

re: #236 torrentprime


No. Which is why so many GOP members are hedging their bets by accepting and claiming credit for individual portions of stimulus funding while deriding it from the other side of their mouths.

240 RogueOne  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:40:59pm

re: #236 torrentprime

“Throw the bums out” is always a powerful narrative, I agree.

Hypothetical time - what if the job market is turned around by, say, October or so? Do you think “the average voter” will still want to punish the Democrats for spending?

It would need to be much sooner than October. Remember the Bush loss in ‘92? The economy turned around a few months before the election but it wasn’t enough time for it to sink in with the voters.

241 cliffster  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 12:43:09pm

re: #240 RogueOne

It would need to be much sooner than October. Remember the Bush loss in ‘92? The economy turned around a few months before the election but it wasn’t enough time for it to sink in with the voters.

It still hasn’t sunk in with Democrats who persist in trying to say Clinton turned around the Bush recession. The same ones, usually, who deny there was a recession when the younger Bush took over after Clinton.

242 exelwood  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 1:05:42pm

re: #236 torrentprime

“Throw the bums out” is always a powerful narrative, I agree.

Hypothetical time - what if the job market is turned around by, say, October or so? Do you think “the average voter” will still want to punish the Democrats for spending?

I think the “blame the candidate” crowd are in for a massive shock come November. Obama has scared people more than any politician in recent history. This is the first anti-capital administration we’ve ever had and the “average voter” can see where these trillions in debt will take us.

The inability of the left to see what the country is seeing will be fatal as usual, after all, when was the left ever wrong?

243 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 1:08:02pm

re: #242 exelwood

You don’t consider ‘the left’ to be part of the country?

I think the “blame the candidate” crowd are in for a massive shock come November.

Why? Do you think the Democrats are going to put up good candidates?

This is the first anti-capital administration we’ve ever had

Heh. Care to explain that little jab at all? Anti-capital… is that the fancy way of saying ‘socialist’?

244 ShaunP  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 1:24:23pm

re: #242 exelwood

…Obama has scared people more than any politician in recent history…

Considering that Obama’s approval rating is still hovering around 52% (read: majority), I think this statement is a little over the top:

[Link: www.gallup.com…]

I’m not denying that some people have gone bat-shit crazy about the Obama presidency…

245 exelwood  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 1:30:46pm

re: #244 ShaunP

Considering that Obama’s approval rating is still hovering around 52% (read: majority), I think this statement is a little over the top:

[Link: www.gallup.com…]

I’m not denying that some people have gone bat-shit crazy about the Obama presidency…

There’s no question Obama is personally popular. People love the “idea” of Obama but it would be difficult to find that type of approval for his policies. Are you saying health care, cap and trade, card check, etc poll as well as Obama?

246 Lidane  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 1:30:58pm

re: #243 Obdicut

You don’t consider ‘the left’ to be part of the country?

Of course not. Never mind the fact that most of us work, obey the law, pay taxes, and go about our daily lives just like anyone else. Clearly, as a liberal, I’m not part of this country. *eyeroll*

Heh. Care to explain that little jab at all? Anti-capital… is that the fancy way of saying ‘socialist’?

Pretty much.

re: #242 exelwood

Obama has scared people more than any politician in recent history.

He’s caused some people to go completely batshit insane and lose all sense of perspective. That much is true.

As far as scaring people, I think only the gullible and the ignorant are frightened. The rest are wondering what the hell the guy did to drive people so completely batty. Sure, he’s a typical pol, but the sheer amount of insane conspiracy surrounding him is mind-blowing.

247 ShaunP  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 1:42:06pm

re: #245 exelwood

55% wanted US to sign Copanhagen agreement:
[Link: www.gallup.com…]

52% support Cap & Trade (sorry for the old poll):
[Link: www.reuters.com…]

49% approve of his stance on terrorism:
[Link: www.gallup.com…]

^^^Look at that last one and you’ll see that the economy and healthcare are the low points. However on healthcare:

A larger percentage think the current plans don’t go far enough (see pg 3):
[Link: www.cbsnews.com…]

248 exelwood  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 1:57:11pm

re: #247 ShaunP

55% wanted US to sign Copanhagen agreement:
[Link: www.gallup.com…]

52% support Cap & Trade (sorry for the old poll):
[Link: www.reuters.com…]

49% approve of his stance on terrorism:
[Link: www.gallup.com…]

^^^Look at that last one and you’ll see that the economy and healthcare are the low points. However on healthcare:

A larger percentage think the current plans don’t go far enough (see pg 3):
[Link: www.cbsnews.com…]

The cap and trade figure is from June 09 and the headline is “Support falling for C&P”! The other polls indicate falling numbers as well.

Look, the last 60 days have been brutal for Obama. Scott Brown took 22% of the registered Democratic vote and trends are just not favorable for Democrats right now. To ignore that reality is to court defeat.

I applaud Obama for the things he does right. The plans for two new nuclear power plants is huge! If he actually follows through on those kind of common sense energy efforts he has my support. His actions in Afghanistan are correct (hear about the capture of the number two Taliban?) Good on him!

249 exelwood  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 1:59:36pm

re: #246 Lidane

He’s caused some people to go completely batshit insane and lose all sense of perspective. That much is true.

As far as scaring people, I think only the gullible and the ignorant are frightened. The rest are wondering what the hell the guy did to drive people so completely batty. Sure, he’s a typical pol, but the sheer amount of insane conspiracy surrounding him is mind-blowing.

LOL, love you guys, Obicut lobs the strawmen up and you knock ‘em out of the park!

250 Obdicut  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 2:00:10pm

re: #249 exelwood

Can you explain what you felt was a strawman that I said, please?

251 Olsonist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 2:06:43pm

re: #216 exelwood

This excuse to me has an almost “whistling through the graveyard” quality to it. I know it’s part of the punditry’s narrative but we’re all pals here, don’t you think the massive leftward lurch might have a teeny bit to do with it?

Actually it’s a political rule, one which hold regardless of political party. The Dems like to see their buddies elected (Sherrod Brown) and the Reps like to see their buddies elected (Rand Paul). Ok, I’m less well versed on the Republican side but I wasn’t making a partisan point. The old boys network works in business as well, or so I’ve heard.

252 exelwood  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 2:14:57pm

re: #251 Olsonist

Actually it’s a political rule, one which hold regardless of political party. The Dems like to see their buddies elected (Sherrod Brown) and the Reps like to see their buddies elected (Rand Paul). Ok, I’m less well versed on the Republican side but I wasn’t making a partisan point. The old boys network works in business as well, or so I’ve heard.

Perhaps I misunderstood your post. It was my impression you were blaming the candidate for the loss of the MA senate seat without acknowledging the enormous elephant in the room (forgive my pun!).

I think it goes without saying the various parties would like to retain control of vacated seats.

253 Lidane  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 2:24:42pm

re: #250 Obdicut

Can you explain what you felt was a strawman that I said, please?

Personally, I thought the strawman was saying that Obama has scared more people than anyone in recent history. Or maybe that’s hyperbole. I’m not sure.

Sure, some people have gone utterly batshit since the guy was elected, but I don’t think there’s some big, overriding fear that’s gripping this nation over Obama’s election. I think that’s just the Teabagger types that are scared.

254 Olsonist  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 2:25:10pm

re: #252 exelwood

Perhaps I misunderstood your post. It was my impression you were blaming the candidate for the loss of the MA senate seat without acknowledging the enormous elephant in the room (forgive my pun!).

She was a terrible candidate. He was quite good. On the political professional level, it’s all about candidate recruitment. When Jon Tester won in Montana, it was mostly because he was a really good candidate. Voters as much as they complain about Congress almost universally return their representative.

255 garhighway  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 2:47:49pm

re: #105 lawhawk

That Times article actually ignores that $787 billion (really $1.3 trillion and counting including interest) in Obama’s stimulus package. Obama’s favorable budgeting includes allowing most of the Bush tax cuts to expire (and that’s treated as a cost - to the government).

There’s plenty of disingenous stuff out there on both sides, but Obama’s spending is out of control; spending under Bush was out of control - and that doesn’t include the Iraq/Afghan military ops.

Government spending is out of control - from the fed on down to local levels and no one can afford the consequences. So everyone is apparently trying to push the solutions off into the future - delaying and deferring pension payments, refinancing debt and extending obligations, and playing around the margins with tax “relief” all while government spending continues.

Even where politicians say that they’re going to cut spending - or even freeze spending, they come under attack as in NJ where Gov. Christie called for a spending freeze demanding that localities spend down their rainy day funds to pay for the rest of the school year - and the unions and Democrats call that a massive education cut. The state is bleeding in the red and has a $2 billion (and that’s probably optimistic) deficit. NJ isn’t even in the worst shape; that’s CA; NY isn’t far behind. All states pretty much had their fiscal situation papered over last year with the stimulus package, but the aid isn’t going to be available this year. That meant states got to continue padding their budgets and maintaining their spending (or increased it) even as revenues dropped off a cliff.

I would respectfully suggest that spending policies in the face of an incipient depression ought to be judged differently than those in normal times. Obama came to office with the very real prospect of an honest-to-God depression looming. He had no monetary levels to pull, since the Fed had already shot their wad lowering the discount rate to effectively zero. In such a situation, spending so that local governments wouldn’t have to lay off as many workers (and thereby add to the unemployment problem) is a reasonable measure. (Granted, the stimulus bill included a lot of pork. I don’t think you can blame the White House for that: that is just Congress being Congress.)

Compare that to the spending in 2000 - 2008. In those eight years, we pissed away a surplus in a big way during a time when the economy really didn’t need the excess spending.

Any equivalence between the Bush and Obama deficits is a false one.

256 exelwood  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 3:18:44pm

re: #254 Olsonist

She was a terrible candidate. He was quite good. On the political professional level, it’s all about candidate recruitment. When Jon Tester won in Montana, it was mostly because he was a really good candidate. Voters as much as they complain about Congress almost universally return their representative.

Some polls indicate that even incumbents are in deep trouble this year, lets hope so! :)

257 mikhailtheplumber  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 4:18:36pm

I didn’t read the whole thread, so I apologize if my point is not new.
Have you noticed that many of the inspired neophyte politic Tea Partiers are not only white, but rather mature (not to say old?) The lady who sold Sarah Key products, the retired 66 year old woman who thinks it might come to a new civil war.

I can’t help but think that this might be not simply a matter of race, but of generation. I wish that was true, for in that case, we only have to seat aside and wait a few years for old age, bad health-care or, if we’re lucky, death panels, to bring an end to the Tea Parties.

258 Lidane  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 4:29:25pm

re: #257 mikhailtheplumber

A good part of it is probably generational. However, there are also many people within the Tea Party movement who are having their fears and prejudices exploited by others who have a much more questionable agenda at work. That’s the real issue, I think.

259 exelwood  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 4:34:56pm

re: #257 mikhailtheplumber

I didn’t read the whole thread, so I apologize if my point is not new.
Have you noticed that many of the inspired neophyte politic Tea Partiers are not only white, but rather mature (not to say old?) The lady who sold Sarah Key products, the retired 66 year old woman who thinks it might come to a new civil war.

I can’t help but think that this might be not simply a matter of race, but of generation. I wish that was true, for in that case, we only have to seat aside and wait a few years for old age, bad health-care or, if we’re lucky, death panels, to bring an end to the Tea Parties.

Perhaps camps for the survivors.

260 Vambo  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 5:04:02pm

re: #257 mikhailtheplumber

I didn’t read the whole thread, so I apologize if my point is not new.
Have you noticed that many of the inspired neophyte politic Tea Partiers are not only white, but rather mature (not to say old?) The lady who sold Sarah Key products, the retired 66 year old woman who thinks it might come to a new civil war.

I can’t help but think that this might be not simply a matter of race, but of generation. I wish that was true, for in that case, we only have to seat aside and wait a few years for old age, bad health-care or, if we’re lucky, death panels, to bring an end to the Tea Parties.

I think we should embrace their suggestion to “stop socialism” and abandon the Medicare program. Their numbers would dwindle down to nothing in less than a year.

261 SeafoodGumbo  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 5:04:32pm

re: #6 Charles

The far right is worse than the worst of the left. Much worse.

You may not agree with Code Pink’s ideology or tactics, but they’re not building stockpiles of weapons and preaching revolution.

One thing that you always fail to mention is that the crazies on the left during the Bush years didn’t have a basis in truth on which to get their bad ideas - the war was not about oil, Bush didn’t lie about WMDs, and the Patriot Act was not the end of freedom.

The loonies on the right, however, do have a basis in truth on which to get their bad ideas - Obama did promise to fund a civilian defense force with as much money as the military currently gets, he is tripling our deficit, and he has taken over banks and car companies. People see Congressmen and Cabinet members who don’t pay taxes, but want to raise ours to exorbitant levels; similarly, they want to force a socialist health care system on us that they refuse to take part in. If you are looking for what is the cause for some loonies on the right becoming more prevalent, stop ignoring that it is the anti-American and anti-capitalist policies of Obama and Congress.

262 Vambo  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 5:08:38pm

re: #261 SeafoodGumbo

they want to force a socialist health care system on us that they refuse to take part in.

lie.

Even Pelosi supported a provision that would force Congress and Senate to enter the public option, if it was created.

263 SeafoodGumbo  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 5:10:15pm

re: #262 Vambo

lie.

Even Pelosi supported a provision that would force Congress and Senate to enter the public option, if it was created.

Got a link?

264 Vambo  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 5:13:55pm

where’s your fucking links for the drive-by diarrhea that you posted?

265 iceweasel  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 5:15:19pm

re: #264 Vambo

where’s your fucking links for the drive-by diarrhea that you posted?

Haha— I knew I liked you. :)

I liked the way it ended with the claim that our president and our elected representatives are ‘Unamerican’.
TeA PaRTy!1!

266 SeafoodGumbo  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 5:20:24pm

re: #264 Vambo

where’s your fucking links for the drive-by diarrhea that you posted?


link

As members of Congress debate a “public option” for health care coverage, they remain safe and secure in their own generous health plan.

Graham says in the current climate, it’s just not fair.

“If we pass a law that says a public option will be made available, I think people like myself should get out of this plan and go into the public option,” he said.

That’s unlikely. Congress has voted down all proposals that would switch them to a public option.

Note that “proposals” is plural as in more than one attempt.

I wonder why Pelosi wasn’t a cosponsor to this:

H.RES.615
Title: Expressing the sense of the House of Representatives that Members who vote in favor of the establishment of a public, federal government run health insurance option are urged to forgo their right to participate in the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program (FEHBP) and agree to enroll under that public option.
Sponsor: Rep Fleming, John [LA-4] (introduced 7/8/2009)

267 Vambo  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 5:29:10pm

oops, it wasn’t Pelosi (can’t believe I almost gave her credit for a good idea)… it was Ted Kennedy and Chris Dodd!!!
[Link: thehill.com…]

There were actually a few Senate Democrats who supported the notion of members of Congress living under whatever public option Washington eventually forced on us. This past summer, an amendment by Sen. Tom Coburn (R-Okla.) was adopted by the Senate health committee by a 12-11 vote with an assist by Sen. Barbara Mikulski (D-Md.) and proxy votes by Sens. Edward Kennedy (D-Mass.) and Chris Dodd (D-Conn.).

I actually am angry though, at the hypocrisy here from the Democrats. I’m a big supporter of reform and the EVOL SOSHULIST OBAMMAKARE, but they’re being their usual incompetent selves.

268 Vambo  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 5:38:07pm

ALSO, both of our articles were from October of last year.

As you know the proposals are being made and struck down faster than anyone can keep track of, and I do remember something more recent about a public option for Congress. Unfortunately reform is stalled indefinitely with “Centerfold” Brown, I don’t even know what they’re doing now.

269 SeafoodGumbo  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 5:42:13pm

re: #267 Vambo

oops, it wasn’t Pelosi (can’t believe I almost gave her credit for a good idea)… it was Ted Kennedy and Chris Dodd!!!
[Link: thehill.com…]

I actually am angry though, at the hypocrisy here from the Democrats. I’m a big supporter of reform and the EVOL SOSHULIST OBAMMAKARE, but they’re being their usual incompetent selves.

From cursing me to “oops” in 16 minutes.

So, one minute my saying that Congress wants to force a socialist health care system (that they won’t use) on the American people is “drive-by diarrhea,” but then, minutes later, you post that you’re “angry” about “the hypocrisy here from the Democrats.” Hmmm…

270 maryatexitzero  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 6:18:04pm

re: #261 SeafoodGumbo

The loonies on the right, however, do have a basis in truth on which to get their bad ideas - Obama did promise to fund a civilian defense force with as much money as the military currently gets..

No, he made a short throwaway comment during one campaign speech about expanding the government’s investment in communications technology, alternate energy, the Foreign Service, AmeriCorps, and the Peace Corps.. Since all of these civilian organizations are capable of disempowering our real enemies, like the people who fund terrorism in Saudi Arabia and Iran (remember those guys?) this was a viable, yet forgettable idea. No one has taken any coherent action towards expanding AmeriCorps or related organizations.

… he is tripling our deficit, and he has taken over banks and car companies.

Who was in power when the economic tsunami hit our shores in September 2008? Republicans and Democrats were to blame for the greatest economic disaster since the Great Depression, but the Republicans were in charge when it all came crashing down. As Harry Truman said, “The buck stops here.” Obama inherited the worst economy we’ve seen in decades. The fact that we’re not all selling apples and pencils on the street is proof that he’s at least competent.

People see Congressmen and Cabinet members who don’t pay taxes, but want to raise ours to exorbitant levels; similarly, they want to force a socialist health care system on us that they refuse to take part in.

Health care for all citizens is offered by most governments around the world. Even the aforementioned enemy troglodytes in Saudi Arabia have a health care system that covers all citizens. Public healthcare is like the metric system - only the US and maybe some little country in Africa don’t have it.

And, speaking of the rest of the world, these tedious, pointless and endless right/left arguments are proof of why the US should not dominate the rest of the world. We’re so busy arguing about who is more evil, Karl Rove or Nancy Pelosi, Keith Olbmerman or Glenn Beck, - we don’t know or care about what’s going on outside our borders. We discuss the situation in Iran, but we only use the argument to gain points against the red or the blue team.

A country can’t survive when 50% of the leadership is unwilling to work with the other 50%. Our infighting makes us look unreliable and idiotic to the rest of the world.

271 SeafoodGumbo  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 7:00:15pm

re: #270 maryatexitzero

The loonies on the right, however, do have a basis in truth on which to get their bad ideas - Obama did promise to fund a civilian defense force with as much money as the military currently gets..

No, he made a short throwaway comment during one campaign speech about expanding the government’s investment in communications technology, alternate energy, the Foreign Service, AmeriCorps, and the Peace Corps.. Since all of these civilian organizations are capable of disempowering our real enemies, like the people who fund terrorism in Saudi Arabia and Iran (remember those guys?) this was a viable, yet forgettable idea. No one has taken any coherent action towards expanding AmeriCorps or related organizations.

If you can watch this video of Rahm Emanuel describing the “mandatory civil service” (Charles’ words) that would take place under an Obama administration, one that would involve living in barracks and doing push-ups so that we can have a “ready, capable, and trained” populus, and still not be utterly creeped out, I don’t know what to say. What do you think someone who is already a little out-there thinks when he hears this if an average person is creeped out?


… he is tripling our deficit, and he has taken over banks and car companies.

Who was in power when the economic tsunami hit our shores in September 2008? Republicans and Democrats were to blame for the greatest economic disaster since the Great Depression, but the Republicans were in charge when it all came crashing down. As Harry Truman said, “The buck stops here.” Obama inherited the worst economy we’ve seen in decades. The fact that we’re not all selling apples and pencils on the street is proof that he’s at least competent.


The Republicans aren’t blameless. They strayed very far from their stated ideals of fiscal responsibility, but they’re at least heard the message and voted against socialized health care. And the stimulus was passed without a single Republican vote. You say that the “Republicans were in charge,” yet Democrats controlled the House and Senate. There’s blame on both sides (which is why the tea partiers are mad at both parties), but a fair assessment shows that the Democrats are the side who’s pushing massive increases in government power now (and were worse before, though the Republicans were definitely not without blame).


People see Congressmen and Cabinet members who don’t pay taxes, but want to raise ours to exorbitant levels; similarly, they want to force a socialist health care system on us that they refuse to take part in.

Health care for all citizens is offered by most governments around the world. Even the aforementioned enemy troglodytes in Saudi Arabia have a health care system that covers all citizens. Public healthcare is like the metric system - only the US and maybe some little country in Africa don’t have it.

And, speaking of the rest of the world, these tedious, pointless and endless right/left arguments are proof of why the US should not dominate the rest of the world. We’re so busy arguing about who is more evil, Karl Rove or Nancy Pelosi, Keith Olbmerman or Glenn Beck, - we don’t know or care about what’s going on outside our borders. We discuss the situation in Iran, but we only use the argument to gain points against the red or the blue team.

A country can’t survive when 50% of the leadership is unwilling to work with the other 50%. Our infighting makes us look unreliable and idiotic to the rest of the world.

Just because the rest of the world does something is not an argument that it is a better way.

272 Vambo  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 7:17:22pm

re: #269 SeafoodGumbo

From cursing me to “oops” in 16 minutes.

So, one minute my saying that Congress wants to force a socialist health care system (that they won’t use) on the American people is “drive-by diarrhea,” but then, minutes later, you post that you’re “angry” about “the hypocrisy here from the Democrats.” Hmmm…

sigh

Here’s something to make you burst a blood vessel:
[Link: my.barackobama.com…]

WARNING: this is from the Obama website, which secretly installs a socialist virus in your computer.

273 Vambo  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 7:29:42pm

Seafood made me realize all over again why I support the Democrats, incompetent as they are — Republicans don’t give a shit about health care reform, and are perfectly content with the repugnant system we have now. Their pathetic alternative didn’t even include a ban on pre-existing conditions. They do not take this issue seriously at all, and they never will. They quietly whine about how “we need reform” only because it would political suicide not to, but they’ll never do a goddamn thing about it. As early as 2008, Republicans were saying there was “no crisis”, and they still say that 45 million uninsured Americans and medical bills the #1 cause for bankruptcy are just products of the “best system in the world”.

274 JoyousMN  Tue, Feb 16, 2010 9:22:17pm

re: #270 maryatexitzero

The loonies on the right, however, do have a basis in truth on which to get their bad ideas - Obama did promise to fund a civilian defense force with as much money as the military currently gets..

No, he made a short throwaway comment during one campaign speech about expanding the government’s investment in communications technology, alternate energy, the Foreign Service, AmeriCorps, and the Peace Corps.. Since all of these civilian organizations are capable of disempowering our real enemies, like the people who fund terrorism in Saudi Arabia and Iran (remember those guys?) this was a viable, yet forgettable idea. No one has taken any coherent action towards expanding AmeriCorps or related organizations.

… he is tripling our deficit, and he has taken over banks and car companies.

Who was in power when the economic tsunami hit our shores in September 2008? Republicans and Democrats were to blame for the greatest economic disaster since the Great Depression, but the Republicans were in charge when it all came crashing down. As Harry Truman said, “The buck stops here.” Obama inherited the worst economy we’ve seen in decades. The fact that we’re not all selling apples and pencils on the street is proof that he’s at least competent.

People see Congressmen and Cabinet members who don’t pay taxes, but want to raise ours to exorbitant levels; similarly, they want to force a socialist health care system on us that they refuse to take part in.

Health care for all citizens is offered by most governments around the world. Even the aforementioned enemy troglodytes in Saudi Arabia have a health care system that covers all citizens. Public healthcare is like the metric system - only the US and maybe some little country in Africa don’t have it.

And, speaking of the rest of the world, these tedious, pointless and endless right/left arguments are proof of why the US should not dominate the rest of the world. We’re so busy arguing about who is more evil, Karl Rove or Nancy Pelosi, Keith Olbmerman or Glenn Beck, - we don’t know or care about what’s going on outside our borders. We discuss the situation in Iran, but we only use the argument to gain points against the red or the blue team.

A country can’t survive when 50% of the leadership is unwilling to work with the other 50%. Our infighting makes us look unreliable and idiotic to the rest of the world.

I’d like to upding you several times for the last two paragraphs.

275 Republican  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 11:25:22am

PJTV has been heavily recruiting and utilizing a few of the more prominent teabagger leadership from around the country to add to their stable of VIPs.

Suddenly these leaders are being offered their own shows, paid gigs to cover the “conventions” (like Glenn Reynolds), and to write favorable blog coverage.

Does anyone believe there are any conflicts of interest, or that it becomes a great big circle jerk of pundits interviewing each other and talking up their causes?


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

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