How the Denial Lobby and a Dishonest Journalist Created a Fake Scandal

Environment • Views: 3,005

Tim Holmes has an excellent in-depth look at the manufacturing of one of the latest phony scandals in the recent deluge of anti-AGW propaganda: the claim that the IPCC AR4 made “false predictions” about the Amazon rain forest: “AmazonGate”: how the denial lobby and a dishonest journalist created a fake scandal.

This latest feeding frenzy kicked off when one erroneous claim – that Himalayan glaciers were “very likely” to disappear by 2035 – was found to have slipped through the net, the IPCC’s extensive review process having failed to weed it out prior to publication. The claim was included on page 493 of the IPCC’s second 1000-page Working Group report on “Impacts, Adaptation and Vulnerability” (WGII). The reference given was to a WWF report – part of the non-peer-reviewed “grey literature” that makes up a periphery of the material in the second Working Group’s report.

Marginal as it may have been, for the media this isolated error appears to have opened the floodgates. A hysterical flurry of activity followed, as the denial lobby began trawling through the IPCC report for anything else that might look bad – particularly anything referencing the grey literature. The results of this search were then fed to elements of the press, who eagerly snatched them up – uncritically repeating many of their claims in the process.

Blogger Richard North was the originator of one such story. North is a climate change denier who has worked with the Telegraph’s Christopher Booker on a number of publications, including most recently Scared to Death: From BSE to Global Warming: Why Scares are Costing Us the Earth. In the words of sceptical writer Richard Wilson, the book is a “surrealist masterpiece”, claiming to debunk “the dangers of passive smoking, white asbestos, eating BSE-infected beef, CO2 emissions, leaded petrol, dioxins, and high-speed car driving”. Examining the book’s commentary on climate change, one atmosphere physicist noted that its “references are very selective and misrepresentative”; another concluded: “[t]hese people have added two and two and got five”. The book misrepresents and even reverses the findings of published scientific literature, and includes a fabricated interview with a Cambridge astrophysicist that had long since been retracted. As the Guardian’s Robin McKie puts it in his review of the book, Booker and North “accuse other journalists of ‘unthinking credulity’ but commit egregious errors that would shame a junior reporter.”

Christopher Booker, North’s co-writer on the book, has himself claimed that white asbestos is “chemically identical to talcum powder”, receiving repeated condemnations from the UK’s Health and Safety Executive for his “misinformed” and “substantially misleading” articles on the subject. He has also denied the link between passive smoking and lung cancer, between BSE and CJD in humans, and, astonishingly, claimed that proponents of Darwinian evolutionary theory “rest their case on nothing more than blind faith and unexamined a priori assumptions”.

One might have expected such corners of crankery to be passed over by most mainstream journalists, or at least left to fester on the Telegraph’s comment pages. But these sources are not only being read – they are finding their “research” used as the foundation for major news stories.

Read the whole thing…

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172 comments
1 Locker  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:06:49pm

It’s amazing to me the efforts to which people will go to misinform and obfuscate the truth. Can’t they channel there energies into something positive or constructive? How about finger painting or something?

2 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:06:59pm
Christopher Booker, North’s co-writer on the book, has himself claimed that white asbestos is “chemically identical to talcum powder”, receiving repeated condemnations from the UK’s Health and Safety Executive for his “misinformed” and “substantially misleading” articles on the subject. He has also denied the link between passive smoking and lung cancer, between BSE and CJD in humans, and, astonishingly, claimed that proponents of Darwinian evolutionary theory “rest their case on nothing more than blind faith and unexamined a priori assumptions”.

Good lord.

The AGW-denier crew are such a motley bunch of weirdos.

You know what’s chemically identical to talcum powder? Talcum powder.

3 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:07:38pm

We really need to get past “Is the science good?” to actual serious discussions about mitigating the problem >>


/yeah I know, good luck with that.

4 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:09:09pm

I think that this shows one of the problems with a standard libertarian approach to government. An educated, informed populace is one of the bastions of freedom, but there are so many groups spending so much time and money deluding the public, obfuscating the real facts, and making Overton windows all over the place.

Our political system is not the greatest at resisting attempts to subvert it and use the freedoms granted under it to work around it.

5 Kragar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:09:32pm
Christopher Booker, North’s co-writer on the book, has himself claimed that white asbestos is “chemically identical to talcum powder”, receiving repeated condemnations from the UK’s Health and Safety Executive for his “misinformed” and “substantially misleading” articles on the subject.

His earlier book, “101 lead based paint recipes for the single parent”, also failed to win critical acclaim.

6 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:09:53pm

re: #3 windsagio

We really need to get past “Is the science good?” to actual serious discussions about mitigating the problem >>

/yeah I know, good luck with that.

Won’t happen as long as people refuse to take Bonhoeffer’s advice about the God of the Gaps….

7 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:10:20pm

re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

His earlier book, “101 lead based paint recipes for the single parent”, also failed to win critical acclaim.

“Did you eat a lot paint chips growing up?”

“You mean wall candy?”

8 cliffster  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:10:23pm

re: #4 Obdicut

I think that this shows one of the problems with a standard libertarian approach to government. An educated, informed populace is one of the bastions of freedom, but there are so many groups spending so much time and money deluding the public, obfuscating the real facts, and making Overton windows all over the place.

Our political system is not the greatest at resisting attempts to subvert it and use the freedoms granted under it to work around it.

Some who thinks AGW is a farce would make an identical statement.

9 darthstar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:11:02pm

And five pulls out of six, Russian Roulette is a harmless and fun game.

10 Arrrr, matey!  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:11:34pm

Sigh, and people wonder why I have no faith in the intelligence of the average human…
/Elitist!
:/

11 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:12:02pm

re: #8 cliffster

I’m sorry, I’m not quite getting your point. Could you explain it more?

12 Locker  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:12:55pm

re: #8 cliffster

Some who thinks AGW is a farce would make an identical statement.

If he/she did I would agree with them.

13 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:13:03pm

re: #8 cliffster

You know I always wondered about that idea. Who would be the money behind groups doing that (on the denier side?)

14 Locker  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:13:41pm

re: #10 Varek Raith

Sigh, and people wonder why I have no faith in the intelligence of the average human…
/Elitist!
:/

I’m a big fan of Varek E-Lite. It’s half the calories of regular Varek.

15 recusancy  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:13:49pm

Good graph and article: climateprogress.org

16 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:14:31pm

re: #10 Varek Raith

Youtube Video

17 simoom  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:15:56pm

Milbank: Tea partiers get audience with RNC chairman but not a shared public stage

Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Steele treated tea party leaders like an ugly date Tuesday afternoon: They were good enough to take upstairs, but not good enough to be seen with in public.

Steele invited leaders of the conservative movement over to the GOP’s Capitol Hill headquarters (to the adjacent National Republican Club, technically) for a private meeting on the third floor. But Republican leaders, probably wary of TV footage showing a tea party takeover of RNC headquarters, denied the activists’ request to use the facility for the news conference they had planned for afterward.

“They wouldn’t allow it,” said Karin Hoffman, the grass-roots activist who organized the meeting.

The moment encapsulated well the Republican Party’s dilemma as it tries to harness the considerable energy of the tea party movement. Steele’s task is essentially to co-opt its leaders, keeping them from electoral challenges that could hurt the GOP’s chances. Yet at the same time, he can’t appear to the rest of the country to be embracing a movement known for extremist words and deeds.

Hasn’t this ship already sailed?

18 cliffster  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:16:05pm

re: #11 Obdicut

I’m sorry, I’m not quite getting your point. Could you explain it more?

Simple point. Just that you are saying that there is a conspiracy of misinformation to take the populace down a bad path. Someone who thinks AGW is a farce will say that there is a conspiracy of misinformation to take the populace down the wrong path.

19 Arrrr, matey!  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:16:43pm

re: #16 windsagio

[Video]

Classic awesomeness.
…Where’s my Elite IV??? ;)

20 cliffster  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:18:18pm

re: #13 windsagio

You know I always wondered about that idea. Who would be the money behind groups doing that (on the denier side?)

Well, I reckon it would be that scientists work off grants, and grants are given out by the government, and the bodies of the government giving out those grants are likely to continue funding labs that give them the results they want to see.

21 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:18:45pm

re: #19 Varek Raith

A new sequel, Elite 4, has been in a lengthy development phase since 1998, and is currently eight years overdue from its original scheduled release date. It is not currently scheduled for release, with Braben stating that full production will commence after the release of The Outsider.


Oof. Thats a goddamn development cycle.

22 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:19:34pm

re: #20 cliffster

so its the government? Or maybe the scientists…

I don’t think that flows as well as the extraction industry ;)

23 cliffster  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:20:41pm

re: #22 windsagio

so its the government? Or maybe the scientists…

I don’t think that flows as well as the extraction industry ;)

Yeah, the sinister government grant-giver angle doesn’t really get legs until the secret anti-capitalism plot kicks in.

24 AlexRogan  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:20:51pm

re: #21 windsagio

Oof. Thats a goddamn development cycle.

Up there with Daikatana and Duke Nukem Forever

25 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:21:07pm

re: #18 cliffster

Well, no, I think that’s a very false equivalence.

I can point to groups and people, like this one, who are known practitioners of bad science, or who aren’t scientists at all, I can point to front groups that used to work for the tobacco companies, I can point to people who are obviously driven by religion, and say, “These people are spreading disinformation”, and I’m right. Not every religious person, not most of them are involved. Not every lobbyist is involved. Not every oil company. There are discrete, nameable people who are doing this, and I can show how each of them are making factual errors in what they present.

They, however, have to point to the self-policing scientific community and say that they are all wrong, are all involved in a conspiracy, or attack the very basis of Western science itself.

It seems to me rather different to say, “A group of lobbyists are pushing an agenda of disinformation” and “98.5% of the climatologists in the world are pushing an agenda of disinformation”.

Does that work for you?

26 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:21:50pm

re: #17 simoom

Milbank: Tea partiers get audience with RNC chairman but not a shared public stage

Hasn’t this ship already sailed?

He’s not embracing them, he’s just giving them a reach around when nobody is looking!

27 simoom  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:22:10pm

re: #19 Varek Raith

re: #21 windsagio

oolite.org
en.wikipedia.org

28 Arrrr, matey!  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:22:15pm

re: #21 windsagio

Oof. Thats a goddamn development cycle.

Yep, winner of the: Duke Nukem Forever Award for Epic ‘Development’ Cycle that Went Nowhere.
:/

29 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:22:25pm

re: #24 talon_262

I feel bad for bringing us offtopic so fast, but cue Derek Smart.

30 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:22:28pm

re: #24 talon_262

Heh. Two games with very different fates, in the end.

31 cliffster  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:22:41pm

re: #25 Obdicut

Works for me. To someone who reads the paper for 5 minutes before he scratches his ass and goes to bed, it looks like two opposing groups, all making the same accusation.

32 jamesfirecat  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:22:42pm

re: #20 cliffster

Well, I reckon it would be that scientists work off grants, and grants are given out by the government, and the bodies of the government giving out those grants are likely to continue funding labs that give them the results they want to see.

Science isn’t a f***ing whore who will do whatever you want if you pay it enough.

33 Kragar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:23:37pm

re: #24 talon_262

Up there with Daikatana and Duke Nukem Forever

Is this Battletoads?

34 cliffster  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:24:03pm

re: #32 jamesfirecat

Science isn’t a f***ing whore who will do whatever you want if you pay it enough.

oooooooooh kay

35 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:24:25pm

re: #17 simoom

Ha!

36 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:24:25pm

re: #31 cliffster

Agreed. Which is why we so desperately need to concentrate hard on increasing the amount of science education in this country.

Which is being made very difficult to do by many members of the religious right and elected officials of the GOP.

37 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:24:38pm

re: #32 jamesfirecat

I’d fuck Science. Not sure I’d pay for it tho’ ;)

38 Kragar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:24:49pm

re: #32 jamesfirecat

Science isn’t a f***ing whore who will do whatever you want if you pay it enough.

Need to find yourself a nice Bangkok scientist for that.

39 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:24:58pm

re: #34 cliffster

Cliff, it was not obvious that you were attempting to portray a though process, rather than expressing your own thought process. Might want to clear that up.

40 Locker  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:25:38pm

re: #37 windsagio

I’d fuck Science. Not sure I’d pay for it tho’ ;)

Me but but only if it’s “weird” science. Mmm Kelly LaBrock in the 80s!

41 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:25:47pm

re: #39 Obdicut

thought process. PIMF.

And back to work now. Damn you, LGF and your hour-sucking ability.

42 cliffster  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:26:34pm

re: #39 Obdicut

Cliff, it was not obvious that you were attempting to portray a though process, rather than expressing your own thought process. Might want to clear that up.

Oh I think it was plenty clear, a question was asked and I answered it. Lots of people take one glance at comments and start injecting whatever meaning they fancy. I don’t care about those people.

43 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:26:37pm

re: #39 Obdicut

posts like that have a tendency to read as the normal equivalance stuff… Its hard to talk about >

44 simoom  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:26:51pm

Oooh, just passed 1000 karma! :P

45 AlexRogan  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:27:13pm

re: #30 Obdicut

Heh. Two games with very different fates, in the end.

True…at least Daikatana was released (IIRC).

46 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:27:43pm

re: #45 talon_262

It was! It was just awful.

47 cliffster  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:27:48pm

re: #41 Obdicut

thought process. PIMF.

And back to work now. Damn you, LGF and your hour-sucking ability.

Give yourself whatever hourly rate you think you merit. Then tell us how much Charles owes you, based on that rate, at the end of any given week.

48 AlexRogan  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:28:26pm

re: #46 windsagio

It was! It was just awful.

That was Carmack’s baby and major f**kup, wasn’t it?

49 garhighway  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:28:44pm

re: #20 cliffster

Well, I reckon it would be that scientists work off grants, and grants are given out by the government, and the bodies of the government giving out those grants are likely to continue funding labs that give them the results they want to see.

In this FOIA age it would be interesting to see the paper trail on that. Unless we also now think that mid-level government scientists have gotten good at keeping secrets. And what are the odds on that: a million to one?

50 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:29:04pm

re: #48 talon_262

Na Romero. Carmack was smart and stayed with Quake.

51 garhighway  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:29:53pm

re: #32 jamesfirecat

Science isn’t a f***ing whore who will do whatever you want if you pay it enough.

Sadly, on the anti-AGW they think exactly that: it’s all spin and bullshit to them.

52 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:30:44pm

re: #51 garhighway

always interesting/scary to think how people came to that position.

53 cliffster  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:31:41pm

re: #49 garhighway

In this FOIA age it would be interesting to see the paper trail on that. Unless we also now think that mid-level government scientists have gotten good at keeping secrets. And what are the odds on that: a million to one?

Hmm, that would be the super secret socialists, not the scientists, that are keeping secrets.

54 AlexRogan  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:32:07pm

re: #50 windsagio

Na Romero. Carmack was smart and stayed with Quake.

That’s right…Romero hasn’t done much since then, has he?

Meanwhile, Carmack got into designing and building rockets for the X-Prize…

55 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:32:34pm

re: #53 cliffster

Hmm, that would be the super secret socialists, not the scientists, that are keeping secrets.

Waterboard them all!
/

56 garhighway  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:33:29pm

re: #53 cliffster

Hmm, that would be the super secret socialists, not the scientists, that are keeping secrets.

I’m not sure I understand you. Do you really believe that climate science is corrupt in the way you are describing?

57 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:33:32pm

re: #54 talon_262

Carmack has enough money to do anything he freakin’ wants.

That must be nice >>

58 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:35:38pm

Science is wonderful, but anyone who thinks scientists are not every bit as vulnerable to being corrupted as non-scientists, is dreaming in technicolour.

59 Elle Plater  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:36:09pm

Talking about lobby groups, looks like BIG OIL was behind capping carbon emissions.

60 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:36:14pm

re: #58 Spare O’Lake

The difference is that the scientific system is designed to self-correct. Politics and PR, not so much…

61 Locker  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:36:32pm

re: #58 Spare O’Lake

Science is wonderful, but anyone who thinks scientists are not every bit as vulnerable to being corrupted as non-scientists, is dreaming in technicolour.

Well I would say that scientists who actually believe in and use the scientific method ARE less vulnerable to being corrupted, especially using faith based tools of corruption.

62 garhighway  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:38:30pm

re: #58 Spare O’Lake

Science is wonderful, but anyone who thinks scientists are not every bit as vulnerable to being corrupted as non-scientists, is dreaming in technicolour.

Of course not. But, as I noted earlier, if the hypothesis is that the grant process for climate science has been politicized, then there would inevitably be a massive evidentiary trail. Which we would have heard about. And which we have not heard about. What should we reasonably conclude from that lack of evidence?

63 cliffster  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:38:35pm

re: #56 garhighway

I’m not sure I understand you. Do you really believe that climate science is corrupt in the way you are describing?

Hey, man, anything’s possible, man. We’re talking about The Man, man.

64 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:42:06pm

re: #53 cliffster

Hmm, that would be the super secret socialists, not the scientists, that are keeping secrets.

Well no it’s much, much bigger then that.

65 ShaunP  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:43:13pm

re: #62 garhighway

Of course not. But, as I noted earlier, if the hypothesis is that the grant process for climate science has been politicized, then there would inevitably be a massive evidentiary trail. Which we would have heard about. And which we have not heard about. What should we reasonably conclude from that lack of evidence?

I wonder how this massive socialist conspiracy without any trail continued between 2000 and 2005 when government was pretty much in complete republican control…

66 Bill D. Cat  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:45:36pm

Maurice Strong . Figure it out for yourselves .

67 garhighway  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:45:53pm

re: #63 cliffster

Hey, man, anything’s possible, man. We’re talking about The Man, man.

Then I respectfully disagree, and I am not so sure that you are engaging in this conversation in good faith. The corruption of the grant process you describe could not occur without leaving a massive trail. The process and the research has been going on for years.

It is a denier’s strategy to draw false equivalence between the denier’s use of paid shills and front groups and this imaginary corruption of the grant process. Are you in that camp, Man? Is it you I am describing?

68 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:45:58pm

re: #65 ShaunP

I wonder how this massive socialist conspiracy without any trail continued between 2000 and 2005 when government was pretty much in complete republican control…

Shhh! No history! The universe sprang into being November 4, 2008!

/

69 That's Grand Lord On High Monckton to you  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:48:15pm

Oompa Loompa, do-ba-dee-doo,
I’ve got a another puzzle for you.
Oompa Loompa, do-ba-dee-dee,
If you are simple you’ll listen to me.
What do you get when you cherry pick facts?
Denying radiation that CO2 traps?
Speaking fees from common and gullible fools.
Enough pounds sterling to fill my Olympic sized pool.
I really like the look of it
Oompa Loompa do-ba-dee-da,
Given a posh accent you will go far.
You will live in happiness too,
Like the oompa loompa do-ba-dee-doo.
Do-ba-dee-doo

70 Bagua  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:51:27pm

Major fail by the Climatesafety.org

The one point they raise, that the source was not found in the WWF report was already noted by Richard North:

However, being “human” myself – although some would hotly dispute that assertion – I appear to have made a mistake in my analysis, charging that in the document referenced by the IPCC, there is no evidence of a statement to support the IPCC’s claim that “40 per cent” of the Amazon is threatened by climate change.”

The real problem with the Amazongate was much worse than simply being sourced by an advocacy group. The actual source for the WWF quote is Rowell & Moore, which is further sourced by the original paper in the journal Nature which says “Logging companies in Amazonia kill or damage 10-40% of the living biomass of forests through the harvest process.” That morphed into the IPCC saying “Up to 40% of the Amazonian forests could react drastically to even a slight reduction in precipitation.”

Thus the original paper was talking about clear cut sections of the Amazon of about 630,000 KM2, and 10 - 40% of that being susceptible to reduced rain fall with that portion of the forest already being destroyed, whereas the whole Amazon forest is 4-6 million KM2. The original peer reviewed paper in Nature says the clear cut areas are sensitive to drought and this got twisted into 40% of the actual remaining forest being sensitive. Fail.

The IPCC simply failed to check the actual paper and chose to go with the WWF non-peer reviewed advocacy version which was vastly more alarming. Whether this was intentional, or merely sloppy is open for debate. Climatesafety.org is showing the same deficiency by focusing on one mistake that was noted and corrected, and ignoring the actual material that developed over several articles.

Just like that game where people sit in a circle and whisper a message around, by the finish the words have been transformed.

71 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:51:28pm

re: #66 Bill D. Cat


Would you care to expand on that at all?

72 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:51:35pm

re: #62 garhighway

Of course not. But, as I noted earlier, if the hypothesis is that the grant process for climate science has been politicized, then there would inevitably be a massive evidentiary trail. Which we would have heard about. And which we have not heard about. What should we reasonably conclude from that lack of evidence?

Almost all research scientists are dependent on corporate grants for much of their income. The sources of those grants are known to the scientists, and vice versa. The grant process is therefore inherently open to conflict of interest and abuse.

BTW, IIRC I read something here the other day which suggested that climate scientists who contribute to CRU or IPCC are saints who work for free.
What should we reasonably conclude from a fantastic proposition like that?

73 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:54:44pm

re: #72 Spare O’Lake

Almost all research scientists are dependent on corporate grants for much of their income. The sources of those grants are known to the scientists, and vice versa. The grant process is therefore inherently open to conflict of interest and abuse.

BTW, IIRC I read something here the other day which suggested that climate scientists who contribute to CRU or IPCC are saints who work for free.
What should we reasonably conclude from a fantastic proposition like that?

That there isn’t a lot to take away from “someone, at some point, may have suggested something” statements as a way to discredit science?

74 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:54:59pm

re: #72 Spare O’Lake

Almost all research scientists are dependent on corporate grants for much of their income.

First of all, let me explain something real quick:

If a doctor researching Leukemia at UCSF gets a few million in grants, he does not get to raise his own salary. The salary is determined by the institution. He does pay his own salary out of the grant, but it’s a small figure compared to what he actually uses grant money for: insanely expensive materials and equipment, salaries for his staff, payments to the university for IT services and the like, etc.

Sure, you can allege that scientists go after grants to get fancier equipment and bigger staff— that’s entirely true. But it is not ‘income’ for the scientist. It is income for the lab.

75 cliffster  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:55:26pm

re: #67 garhighway

Then I respectfully disagree, and I am not so sure that you are engaging in this conversation in good faith. The corruption of the grant process you describe could not occur without leaving a massive trail. The process and the research has been going on for years.

It is a denier’s strategy to draw false equivalence between the denier’s use of paid shills and front groups and this imaginary corruption of the grant process. Are you in that camp, Man? Is it you I am describing?

Nope, but it’s fun to mess with people who didn’t put my original post in context.

76 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:55:58pm

*sigh* here we go again.

77 Bagua  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:56:01pm

re: #72 Spare O’Lake

Almost all research scientists are dependent on corporate grants for much of their income. The sources of those grants are known to the scientists, and vice versa. The grant process is therefore inherently open to conflict of interest and abuse.

BTW, IIRC I read something here the other day which suggested that climate scientists who contribute to CRU or IPCC are saints who work for free.
What should we reasonably conclude from a fantastic proposition like that?



Scientists have been trained with grant funds the way Pavlov’s dogs were trained with dog biscuits.

Oliver K. Manuel
Emeritus Professor of
Nuclear & Space Sciences
Former NASA PI for Apollo

But not only Corporate grants, there are hundreds of millions being distributed by governments including the US and EU and others.

78 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:59:42pm

re: #74 Obdicut

First of all, let me explain something real quick:

If a doctor researching Leukemia at UCSF gets a few million in grants, he does not get to raise his own salary. The salary is determined by the institution. He does pay his own salary out of the grant, but it’s a small figure compared to what he actually uses grant money for: insanely expensive materials and equipment, salaries for his staff, payments to the university for IT services and the like, etc.

Sure, you can allege that scientists go after grants to get fancier equipment and bigger staff— that’s entirely true. But it is not ‘income’ for the scientist. It is income for the lab.

Don’t be naive. Research scientists’ remuneration is directly related to the amounts of the grants. That, along with their CVs and lists of publications, are their main negotiating points when they sit down with the administration to negotiate their pay.

79 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:00:48pm
Clippo recently pointed us to Nexus 6, which led to a bit of a discussion about “the worst climate paper ever”.

I pointed out David Archibald’s nonsense (later updated here), but I maintained that the worst I had read (in my opinion) was by Alexander & Bailey.
But I have now changed my mind – there’s a new (old) kid on the block.

Oliver K Manuel, (Emeritus) Professor of Chemistry at the University of Missouri-Rolla, believes that the Sun (and the rest of the solar system) are comprised of the remnants of a supernova that exploded about 5 billion years ago. As a result of this, the Sun is mainly made of Iron – it just has a thin skin of Helium and Hydrogen at the surface.

This pretty much flies in the face of every astronomical paper on the Sun in the last Century or two.

What does this have to do with climate change?

Manuel reckons that the heavy, iron-rich core of the sun is “pulled about” by the gravitational effects of the planets, which causes changes to solar output and therefore drives climate change. This only works, though, because the sun is made of iron – if it really was a ball of Hydrogen and Helium then the climate would not be changing.

I can’t remember the last time I read anything this absurd.

Icing on the cake – he actually cites Alexander & Bailey.

Even better – Plimer cites Manuel.

Manuel’s paper is here.

Bonus points to the first person who can say what Manuel, Archibald, Landscheidt, Alexander & Bailey have in common (other than the Sun).

greenfyre.wordpress.com

Wow, what a ludicrous crackpot Manuel is.

80 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:02:34pm

On a very positive note during this discussion of AGW..
This is going to give our Scientists whom I deeply respect.. Better Software tools..More Weather Stations globally..More Climate model programming skills..
More publishing on the web.. More Money for studies…

In case any forgot.. It was a scientist that explained the general rules of the universe.. The laptop you are blogging on.. The medicine that keeps you alive..Space ships and the connecting plane ride you took today.. The GPS device you use..The car you drive the food you eat..the water you drink..Thw world we live in..Except for the air you breathe..Everything
is because of scientists and their work for us..
I hail them as hero’s..
If you feel a few emails changes all that I feel sorry for you…You politicized this GOP..You lashed out at thousands of a good people and made this a party issue..Not a science issue…

Now Charles Knows this cause I send him the official paperwork a longtime ago..
I was once the Republican of the year..There were quite a few of us..
I was was freaking proud to treat politics as a grown up and a moderate..
I was born and raised in California..Land of Reagan…
So I can say this.. Fuck you GOP…I’m standing with Charles..
There is insanity going on with the Grand old party..It’s sad..
From the party of the grown ups to this?
/Rant off

81 Bagua  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:04:07pm

re: #74 Obdicut

First of all, let me explain something real quick:

If a doctor researching Leukemia at UCSF gets a few million in grants, he does not get to raise his own salary. The salary is determined by the institution. He does pay his own salary out of the grant, but it’s a small figure compared to what he actually uses grant money for: insanely expensive materials and equipment, salaries for his staff, payments to the university for IT services and the like, etc.

Sure, you can allege that scientists go after grants to get fancier equipment and bigger staff— that’s entirely true. But it is not ‘income’ for the scientist. It is income for the lab.

You are correct, those are good points. Yet one must consider that personal income is not the only motivation, just as there is a “publish or perish” mentality among researchers, many of them are not in it for the money. They want to lead a large project, have a new lab or wing built for them, and have many students and associates. That is success for them and brings money into their university.

Furthermore, as Spare-O-Lake points out, there is no doubt a direct financial impact as well, which although it is small beer to the full grant amount, is of considerable value to the researcher in terms of his finances.

82 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:04:25pm

re: #80 HoosierHoops

Nice rant, Hoops. It had rhythm.

Though I do wince at hearing California called “Land of Reagan”. But I’ll give it to ya’.

83 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:06:09pm

re: #78 Spare O’Lake

You do know that professors get hired first and then seek grants, right?

84 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:08:05pm

re: #81 Bagua

You are correct, those are good points. Yet one must consider that personal income is not the only motivation, just as there is a “publish or perish” mentality among researchers, many of them are not in it for the money. They want to lead a large project, have a new lab or wing built for them, and have many students and associates. That is success for them and brings money into their university.

Furthermore, as Spare-O-Lake points out, there is no doubt a direct financial impact as well, which although it is small beer to the full grant amount, is of considerable value to the researcher in terms of his finances.

And this financial impact is… what? Proof positive that all science is biased? All this amounts to is, “some people can be bought.” So? Shall we start with Rep. Cunningham, and then use that incident to discredit every GOP action ever, because “some congressman can be bought”? Don’t you need to, you know, show how someone was corrupt in both science and money matters? Like, evidence?

Again, all you are doing with this is saying, “some people can be bribed.” It doesn’t disprove one report, doesn’t invalidate one conclusion. It’s just mud-throwing without specifics to back it up.

85 garhighway  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:08:45pm

re: #72 Spare O’Lake

Almost all research scientists are dependent on corporate grants for much of their income. The sources of those grants are known to the scientists, and vice versa. The grant process is therefore inherently open to conflict of interest and abuse.

BTW, IIRC I read something here the other day which suggested that climate scientists who contribute to CRU or IPCC are saints who work for free.
What should we reasonably conclude from a fantastic proposition like that?

Taking your points in reverse order: Beats me. Perhaps including the link to the full post might help us understand it better.

As to your first point, I entirely agree that since we are dealing with human beings, they are susceptible to all kinds of influence, for good and ill. No argument there. But to hypothesize that mid-level bureaucrats and scientists have, for years, managed to corrupt the grant process, cherry-picking climate science grant recipients based on some ideological litmus test and leave zero trace of those efforts seems a little far-fetched.

86 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:09:07pm

re: #84 torrentprime

if we get down to it, the thrust of these posts is ‘scientists are corrupt, so we must mistrust scientists’… and presumably also the science at hand (AGW).

87 cliffster  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:09:28pm

re: #82 Obdicut

Nice rant, Hoops. It had rhythm.

Though I do wince at hearing California called “Land of Reagan”. But I’ll give it to ya’.

How about the “Land of Pelosi”? Or the “Land of Fiorini”?

88 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:10:00pm

re: #87 cliffster

Wince and double-wince.

I suggest “The Land of Emperor Norton”.

89 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:11:14pm

re: #88 Obdicut

“The land of the Hell’s Angels”?

90 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:12:09pm

re: #83 Obdicut

You do know that professors get hired first and then seek grants, right?

Professors supplement their income, directly and indirectly, from research grants.
And you do know that research scientists are soon gone unless they bring in the grants and get published, right?

91 Bagua  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:12:14pm

re: #84 torrentprime

And this financial impact is… what? Proof positive that all science is biased? All this amounts to is, “some people can be bought.” So? Shall we start with Rep. Cunningham, and then use that incident to discredit every GOP action ever, because “some congressman can be bought”? Don’t you need to, you know, show how someone was corrupt in both science and money matters? Like, evidence?

Again, all you are doing with this is saying, “some people can be bribed.” It doesn’t disprove one report, doesn’t invalidate one conclusion. It’s just mud-throwing without specifics to back it up.

Why are you putting words in my mouth? I’m not citing “proof” of anything, rather looking at the influences, which are real and undeniable. Whether they lead to any bad science or not remains to be proven on a case by case basis. But the money and pressure are certainly motivational.

92 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:13:00pm

12 short months Ago There would be no way in hell a repub could hold Teddy’s seat in Mass.
Don’t be surprised if California is next.. Never under estimate voter anger…

93 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:13:39pm

re: #92 HoosierHoops

Depressing lesson of 2010:

“Gridlock works!”

94 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:15:17pm

re: #90 Spare O’Lake

Professors supplement their income, directly and indirectly, from research grants.
And you do know that research scientists are soon gone unless they bring in the grants and get published, right?

And this means the results of their research are biased? Because they came to the
“wrong” conclusion? Even all those years when the GOP controlled Congress - those scientists just forgot what they were “supposed” to determine with their efforts and mistakenly confirmed global climate change?

95 darthstar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:17:19pm

re: #92 HoosierHoops

12 short months Ago There would be no way in hell a repub could hold Teddy’s seat in Mass.
Don’t be surprised if California is next.. Never under estimate voter anger…

Nor should we underestimate how taking the voters for granted and running a crappy campaign can lose an election. And Barbara Boxer isn’t one to do that.

96 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:17:28pm

re: #90 Spare O’Lake

Professors supplement their income, directly and indirectly, from research grants.
And you do know that research scientists are soon gone unless they bring in the grants and get published, right?

Well, yes. If you can’t publish, you’re not really getting anywhere. But ‘bringing in the grants’ isn’t really that difficult, and scientists aim their research where their grants will allow. a friend of mine just messed up his RO1 grant, so he has very little to work with for awhile. So he’s going to be a bit more collaborative and a bit more theoretical than usual.

You said that salary negotiations involve an analysis on grants. I am 99% sure that in the UC system, the salaries of the professors are mandated, and not negotiable, and furthermore, the professor wouldn’t have a grant upon arrival, anyway.

The money being spent by scientists on research is being dishonestly compared to the money spent by the AGW-denier industry on AGW-denial. They are not equivalent. At all.

97 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:18:10pm

re: #91 Bagua

Why are you putting words in my mouth? I’m not citing “proof” of anything, rather looking at the influences, which are real and undeniable. Whether they lead to any bad science or not remains to be proven on a case by case basis. But the money and pressure are certainly motivational.

Thanks for the answer. I’m glad you’re not throwing mud at scientists indiscriminately.

But what is the connection between the “motivating” effects of grants and the conclusions reached w/r/t AGW? Couldn’t a scientist claim that s/he had disproved AGW and thus ensure that money rolls in? Why is the assumption of bias only one way?

98 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:18:30pm

re: #96 Obdicut

Well, yes. If you can’t publish, you’re not really getting anywhere. But ‘bringing in the grants’ isn’t really that difficult, and scientists aim their research where their grants will allow. a friend of mine just messed up his RO1 grant, so he has very little to work with for awhile. So he’s going to be a bit more collaborative and a bit more theoretical than usual.

You said that salary negotiations involve an analysis on grants. I am 99% sure that in the UC system, the salaries of the professors are mandated, and not negotiable, and furthermore, the professor wouldn’t have a grant upon arrival, anyway.

The money being spent by scientists on research is being dishonestly compared to the money spent by the AGW-denier industry on AGW-denial. They are not equivalent. At all.

You’re right, they are not comparable.

99 garhighway  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:18:43pm

re: #91 Bagua

Why are you putting words in my mouth? I’m not citing “proof” of anything, rather looking at the influences, which are real and undeniable. Whether they lead to any bad science or not remains to be proven on a case by case basis. But the money and pressure are certainly motivational.

So what do YOU think? Do you believe that the the studies that have led to the IPCC reports are the products of an ideologically-tilted grant process that makes them unreliable?

100 cliffster  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:18:46pm

re: #92 HoosierHoops

12 short months Ago There would be no way in hell a repub could hold Teddy’s seat in Mass.
Don’t be surprised if California is next.. Never under estimate voter anger…

Voters don’t get mad, they get even. And with that, I gotta run. And to those of you who come to this thread in 2 days to post AGW doubts to the crickets, I say, “get a life”.

101 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:19:34pm

re: #94 torrentprime

And this means the results of their research are biased? Because they came to the
“wrong” conclusion? Even all those years when the GOP controlled Congress - those scientists just forgot what they were “supposed” to determine with their efforts and mistakenly confirmed global climate change?

All I ever said was that research scientists are human beings subject to tremendous financial and other pressures, and do not deserve a free pass.

102 A Man for all Seasons  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:20:19pm

re: #95 darthstar

Nor should we underestimate how taking the voters for granted and running a crappy campaign can lose an election. And Barbara Boxer isn’t one to do that.

We shall see! I always loved Cali politics…

103 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:20:33pm

re: #99 garhighway

So what do YOU think? Do you believe that the the studies that have led to the IPCC reports are the products of an ideologically-tilted grant process that makes them unreliable?

Does the head of the IPCC have any connection to large corporations that would benefit from pro-AGW science?

104 Bagua  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:20:45pm

It is true the amounts spent are not equivalent.

Pro-AGW is a multi-billion dollar industry.

Anti-AGW has funding in the millions, not billions, and much of it is done by bloggers and journalists for little or no money.

Not even close to equivalent.

105 Arrrr, matey!  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:21:16pm

re: #104 Bagua

Links?

106 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:21:39pm

re: #103 Walter L. Newton

I asked this above, but its worth asking again, what companies would benefit from pro-AGW bias? Do they have nearly the money that say, the coal or petrolium industries would?

107 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:22:18pm

re: #104 Bagua

You’re actually making that argument.


Do you believe that the research is incorrect and biased in the direction of AGW existing?

108 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:22:44pm
109 Bagua  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:23:30pm

re: #99 garhighway

So what do YOU think? Do you believe that the the studies that have led to the IPCC reports are the products of an ideologically-tilted grant process that makes them unreliable?

At this point I’m more concerned with the false data that has been found in the IPCC AR4 than in the parts that are sourced to real peer reviewed papers. This is a change of position for me as I previously upheld the IPCC AR4 as the authoritative document.

110 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:24:27pm

re: #106 windsagio

I asked this above, but its worth asking again, what companies would benefit from pro-AGW bias? Do they have nearly the money that say, the coal or petrolium industries would?

No, they are new start up companies, companies that are selling carbon-credits, companies that are involved with industries that would benefit from selling everything from solar energy resources to electric cars for instance.

111 Bagua  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:24:27pm

re: #108 Obdicut

Yes I read that post as well Obdicut, thank you.

112 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:24:41pm

re: #101 Spare O’Lake

All I ever said was that research scientists are human beings subject to tremendous financial and other pressures, and do not deserve a free pass.

Apologies, but to me this smacks of, “I don’t have an opinion on this or anything, but I’m just asking questions…” or “I’m not saying they’re right, but I think some very good issues have been raised…”

I wish those playing this game would accuse someone of corruption, bad science, or malfeasance of some kind or else stop raising a “someone people can be corrupted (wink, wink), you know.”

113 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:26:31pm

re: #110 Walter L. Newton

hrm; so I guess the implied answer to 103 would be ‘no, they because they don’t exist’.

I guess the point I’m trying ot make (and this isn’t primarily directed at you), is that if theres money behind any scientific corruption or bias, its almost certainly on the anti-agw side.

114 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:26:33pm

re: #111 Bagua

The first case study I’ve posted reveals how a coalition of US coal companies sought to persuade people that the science is uncertain. It listed the two social groups it was trying to reach – “Target 1: Older, less educated males”; “Target 2: Younger, lower income women” – and the methods by which it would reach them. One of its findings was that “members of the public feel more confident expressing opinions on others’ motivations and tactics than they do expressing opinions on scientific issues”.

Remember this the next time you hear people claiming that climate scientists are only in it for the money, or that environmentalists are trying to create a communist world government: these ideas were devised and broadcast by energy companies. The people who inform me, apparently without irony, that “your article is an ad hominem attack, you four-eyed, big-nosed, commie sack of shit”, or “you scaremongers will destroy the entire world economy and take us back to the Stone Age”, are the unwitting recruits of campaigns they have never heard of.

The second case study reveals how Dr Patrick Michaels, one of a handful of climate change deniers with a qualification in climate science, has been lavishly paid by companies seeking to protect their profits from burning coal. As far as I can discover, none of the media outlets who use him as a commentator – including the Guardian – has disclosed this interest at the time of his appearance. Michaels is one of many people commenting on climate change who presents himself as an independent expert while being secretly paid for his services by fossil fuel companies.

The third example shows how a list published by the Heartland Institute (which has been sponsored by oil company Exxon) of 500 scientists “whose research contradicts man-made global warming scares” turns out to be nothing of the kind: as soon as these scientists found out what the institute was saying about them, many angrily demanded that their names be removed. Twenty months later, they are still on the list. The fourth example shows how, during the Bush presidency, White House officials worked with oil companies to remove regulators they didn’t like and to doctor official documents about climate change.

115 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:27:52pm

re: #112 torrentprime

Thats the name of the game for these threads. Alot of ‘raising questions’.

116 garhighway  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:27:52pm

re: #110 Walter L. Newton

No, they are new start up companies, companies that are selling carbon-credits, companies that are involved with industries that would benefit from selling everything from solar energy resources to electric cars for instance.

And we all know that start-ups have the ability to retroactively corrupt the last decade or so of climate research. And leave no trace. They have time machines. And invisibility cloaks.

They get all the really cool stuff. All Exxon gets is money.

117 Arrrr, matey!  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:29:19pm

re: #115 windsagio

Thats the name of the game for these threads. Alot of ‘raising questions’.

It’s a conspiracy!11!1

118 Bagua  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:29:25pm

re: #107 windsagio

You’re actually making that argument.

Do you believe that the research is incorrect and biased in the direction of AGW existing?

It is not an argument, it is a fact. And I do not know the effect, but one can not say the effect is nothing, that is as illogical as saying that the influence of increased CO2 emissions is nothing.

As to the second part, what I ‘believe’; what I’m doing is examining influences on others belief systems, personally, I work to eliminate my beliefs and biases from my own research, as so all honest researchers.

119 Bagua  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:30:31pm

re: #114 Obdicut

Did you have a point? First you posted the link and then copy and pasted the same text.

120 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:30:38pm

re: #112 torrentprime

Apologies, but to me this smacks of, “I don’t have an opinion on this or anything, but I’m just asking questions…” or “I’m not saying they’re right, but I think some very good issues have been raised…”

I wish those playing this game would accuse someone of corruption, bad science, or malfeasance of some kind or else stop raising a “someone people can be corrupted (wink, wink), you know.”

Your apology is not sincere. Healthy skepticism and distrust is vital in the face of zealotry. More important, it is an integral ingredient of the scientific method itself.

121 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:31:27pm

re: #112 torrentprime

Apologies, but to me this smacks of, “I don’t have an opinion on this or anything, but I’m just asking questions…” or “I’m not saying they’re right, but I think some very good issues have been raised…”

I wish those playing this game would accuse someone of corruption, bad science, or malfeasance of some kind or else stop raising a “someone people can be corrupted (wink, wink), you know.”

The head of the UN’s climate change panel - Dr Rajendra Pachauri - is accused of making a fortune from his links with ‘carbon trading’ companies, Christopher Booker and Richard North write.

The flaws — and the erosion they’ve caused in public confidence — have some scientists calling for drastic changes in how future United Nations climate reports are done. A push for reform being published in Thursday’s issue of a prestigious scientific journal comes on top of a growing clamor for the resignation of the chairman of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

“A lot of stuff in there was just not very good,” said Kevin Trenberth, head of climate analysis at the National Center for Atmospheric Research and a lead author of the first report. “A chronic problem is that on the whole area of impacts, getting into the realm of social science, it is a softer science. The facts are not as good.”

The head of the BBC Pension Fund is Perter DUnscombe and he is also the head of this company who makes investments in companies who are involved in low carbon econoomy.

The Institutional Investors Group on Climate Change (IIGCC) is a forum for collaboration on climate change for European investors. The group’s objective is to catalyse greater investment in a low carbon economy by bringing investors together to use their collective influence with companies, policymakers and investors. The group currently has over 50 members, including some of the largest pension funds and asset managers in Europe, and represents assets of around €4trillion. A full list of members is available on the membership page.

122 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:32:19pm

re: #121 Walter L. Newton

Awesome.

123 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:32:33pm

re: #113 windsagio

re: #116 garhighway

See my re: #121 Walter L. Newton

and take a look at the BBC page…

bbc.co.uk

124 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:33:04pm

re: #117 Varek Raith

Its just frustrating. The same thing every thread.

125 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:34:05pm

re: #122 Spare O’Lake

Awesome.

Of course, the reporter on the IPCC’s heads company connections will be questions right away. Problem is, no matter what these reports have reported in the past, this article has not been denied by any source, nor the IPCC, this information is not a real secret anymore.

126 andres  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:34:37pm
127 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:35:07pm

re: #115 windsagio

Thats the name of the game for these threads. Alot of ‘raising questions’.

He who is first shall later be last,
For the times they are a changing.

128 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:35:08pm

re: #120 Spare O’Lake

Your apology is not sincere. Healthy skepticism and distrust is vital in the face of zealotry. More important, it is an integral ingredient of the scientific method itself.

I wasn’t apologizing for the content; I was apologizing in advance for the directness of my statement. Thus, you’re in no position to judge my sincerity.

And all of those healthy rational mindsets you mentioned apply to both sides, correct? You apply the same healthy skepticism and distrust to corporate-paid climate scientists and shadow campaign-inspired “it’s all a fraud, across the board” statements from the right?

You get bonus points for labeling environmental science “zealotry”, though.

129 Bagua  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:35:12pm

re: #121 Walter L. Newton

Mike Hulme, Professor of Climate Change at East Anglia University has said on the BBC:

“I do think the IPCC is probably past its sell by date.”

That is not a ‘denier’ or a ‘sceptic’ speaking.

130 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:36:21pm

re: #117 Varek Raith

It’s a conspiracy!11!1

No it’s not a conspiracy, and I don’t even think that the general body of scientist world over is conspiring to do anything except good science when it comes to AGW.

But it is becoming more and more evident every day that the IPCC and the CRU have problems, problems that need to be fixed, and we see indications that major scientist are saying the same thing about the IPCC and the university itself intends to look at how CRU has handled it’s data processing.

131 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:38:47pm

re: #129 Bagua

Mike Hulme, Professor of Climate Change at East Anglia University has said on the BBC:

“I do think the IPCC is probably past its sell by date.”

That is not a ‘denier’ or a ‘sceptic’ speaking.

And neither is this person…

The announcement came as Sir Muir, a former vice-chancellor of Glasgow University, announced the long-awaited terms of reference for his inquiry into the email leaks. He said that work would focus on the claims sparked by the leaked emails, including whether the data used to make conclusions about the rate of climate change was properly managed.

Sir Muir said the results of his inquiry would be published but warned that it would not ”audit the [unit’s] scientific conclusions”, only the scientists’ behaviour and how they followed data procedures.

They are investigating the exact same things that I have been concerned about all these months.

Not that AGW is a problem, but the process, procedure and policy that has gone on at the CRU.

132 Bagua  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:40:00pm

re: #130 Walter L. Newton

The problem Walter, is folks are so wrapped up in the need to maintain the proper faith that examining the problems with one agency or one unit requires you to be examined on what you believe in. Sort of a modern day Spanish Inquisition where one is put under duress to prove ones faith.

133 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:40:18pm

re: #123 Walter L. Newton

I read the IIGCC thing, so yeah, sounds like a group that in the future will be able to throw money behind agw science if they wanted to.

Sounds like they’re more a mutual fund kind of thing tho’

134 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:43:30pm

re: #133 windsagio

I read the IIGCC thing, so yeah, sounds like a group that in the future will be able to throw money behind agw science if they wanted to.

Sounds like they’re more a mutual fund kind of thing tho’


What ever… 11 billion dollars of the BBC pension fund is invested in this firm… and the BBC pension fund is run by Dunscombe, who also runs the investment firm.

The BBC had the “hacked” material from CRU, emails, documents, program code and Harris’ programmers notes for almost 2 months before it became public.

Why did it become public. Because the BBC sat on the story and who ever hacked the material decided to get the stuff released by going for a full public route.

Why would the BBC sit on the story? No one has proof of why, but it could certainly be suspect. I would think that would send up in the least a read flag.

135 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:44:58pm

re: #129 Bagua

Mike Hulme, Professor of Climate Change at East Anglia University has said on the BBC:

“I do think the IPCC is probably past its sell by date.”

That is not a ‘denier’ or a ‘sceptic’ speaking.

Consider the fact that the CRU is fixing to be investigated about it’s data processing methods over the last 15 years, I would say that Mike Hulme may be calling the kettle black.

136 garhighway  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:45:53pm

re: #130 Walter L. Newton

No it’s not a conspiracy, and I don’t even think that the general body of scientist world over is conspiring to do anything except good science when it comes to AGW.

Thank you.

I’m far more interested in the validity of the science than in the quarrels over who should run the IPCC. So long as we don’t let Exxon pick the new head. And I, too, wish that the IPCC stuck with the hard science part of their reports. They are good at that. They got a little sloppy with the social stuff.

Hell, I’d like the place to be run by the most unimpeachable scientist on earth, whomever you think that is. But I know that it doesn’t matter. The deniers will move on to specious argument number 110, because they don’t give a rat’s ass about the science. They care about one of two things: the politics or the money. And for some it’s both.

137 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:45:56pm

re: #134 Walter L. Newton

I just can’t go along with that analysis. Its too baroque, and it implies a huge conspiracy involving the most respected news organization in the world.

138 Arrrr, matey!  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:46:05pm

re: #130 Walter L. Newton

Sorry, that wasn’t directed at you. I think I know where you stand on this issue.
:)

139 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:48:09pm

re: #138 Varek Raith

some day, I’m gonna accuse some poster on here (not sure who yet) of being an actual Exxon/Mobil employee, paid to weaken AGW threads.

//

140 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:49:34pm

re: #137 windsagio

I just can’t go along with that analysis. Its too baroque, and it implies a huge conspiracy involving the most respected news organization in the world.

Then, if the BBC had any articles that questioned the IPCC and the CRU, you would respect the tone and tenor of the information and trust the validity of the story?

141 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:50:40pm

re: #140 Walter L. Newton

//heh sounds like a trap.

I’d certainly trust any story like that more from the BBC than from another source. I don’t suspect them of having any serious agenda beyond the news.

142 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:52:46pm

re: #139 windsagio

some day, I’m gonna accuse some poster on here (not sure who yet) of being an actual Exxon/Mobil employee, paid to weaken AGW threads.

//

Go for it. Since I know who Bagua is and I am sure he’s not working for beg oil, and I’m only making 9 dollars an hour right now shlepping furniture, I would like to know who you are talking about, I may want to get in contact with that person.

143 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:55:01pm

re: #141 windsagio

//heh sounds like a trap.

I’d certainly trust any story like that more from the BBC than from another source. I don’t suspect them of having any serious agenda beyond the news.

No… the BBC has, over the last few week, finally caught up with the IPCC and CRU stories, and I was just wondering if they would be a source that, if they were questioning the validity of something in regards to those two organizations, I was wondering if that would perk you interest as to the possibility that there has been some problems?

144 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:57:45pm

re: #143 Walter L. Newton

The question isn’t whether there have been some problems, the problem is with how the problems have been exaggerated and extrapolated to make scandals where there shouldn’t be any, and to undermine the AGW science in general.

re: #142 Walter L. Newton

I would never ever actually accuse anyone of that, beyond the fact that I’d get seriously reamed for it, its unproveable, and they don’t need to do that anyways :P

145 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:59:27pm

re: #134 Walter L. Newton

The BBC had the “hacked” material from CRU, emails, documents, program code and Harris’ programmers notes for almost 2 months before it became public.

Why did it become public. Because the BBC sat on the story and who ever hacked the material decided to get the stuff released by going for a full public route.

Why would the BBC sit on the story? No one has proof of why, but it could certainly be suspect. I would think that would send up in the least a read flag.

This is simply not true. The BBC did NOT have the hacked emails. I posted about this last November: The BBC Did Not Receive Stolen CRU Emails.

146 Charles Johnson  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:02:22pm

Notice where the FALSE report originated that the BBC had copies of the hacked emails months before they were released:

The Daily Mail.

Anyone starting to see a pattern emerge?

147 Arrrr, matey!  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:03:15pm

re: #146 Charles

Notice where the FALSE report originated that the BBC had copies of the hacked emails months before they were released?

The Daily Mail.

Anyone starting to see a pattern emerge?

Ah, The Daily Fail.

148 Unakite  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:07:24pm

re: #9 darthstar

And five pulls out of six, Russian Roulette is a harmless and fun game.

Statistically speaking. But also one pull could ruin your day (what are the odds of that).

149 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:07:55pm

re: #145 Charles

This is simply not true. The BBC did NOT have the hacked emails. I posted about this last November: The BBC Did Not Receive Stolen CRU Emails.

Thanks for that article. I will put that rumor to bed.

150 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:10:12pm

re: #146 Charles

Notice where the FALSE report originated that the BBC had copies of the hacked emails months before they were released:

The Daily Mail.

Anyone starting to see a pattern emerge?

I see that the Daily Mail has probably purposefully tried to sway the debate by falsifying some stories, but it doesn’t change the recent BBC stories themselves.

151 Bagua  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:18:43pm

re: #150 Walter L. Newton

I see that the Daily Mail has probably purposefully tried to sway the debate by falsifying some stories, but it doesn’t change the recent BBC stories themselves.

That is a problem with the media in general, they tend to pickup stories from each other and try to add a quote or two to make it their own.

That the BBC and the Guardian are now looking at the IPCC with some honesty is shocking considering their history.

152 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:20:44pm

re: #151 Bagua

That is a problem with the media in general, they tend to pickup stories from each other and try to add a quote or two to make it their own.

That the BBC and the Guardian are now looking at the IPCC with some honesty is shocking considering their history.

That’s a point well taken. When you get your checks from big oil, is the Exxon one bigger, or the one from Shell bigger? I’ve been trying to get through to the False Flag Department at Exxon, but they won’t answer my emails.

153 Bagua  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:23:42pm

re: #139 windsagio

some day, I’m gonna accuse some poster on here (not sure who yet) of being an actual Exxon/Mobil employee, paid to weaken AGW threads.

//

Rather than just knee jerk opposing every poster who examines issues relating to the IPCC and AGW, why not drop the gamesmanship and actually address the points being made or just lurk and learn?

You’ve set yourself up as some sort of defender of a belief system when most of us here just want to discuss issues and share ideas in a search for truth.

We don’t need to be looking for ways to accuse each other of anything other than having opinions.

154 Unakite  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:23:51pm

re: #106 windsagio

I asked this above, but its worth asking again, what companies would benefit from pro-AGW bias? Do they have nearly the money that say, the coal or petrolium industries would?

BBC Pension fund??

155 Bagua  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:30:45pm

re: #106 windsagio

I asked this above, but its worth asking again, what companies would benefit from pro-AGW bias? Do they have nearly the money that say, the coal or petrolium industries would?

Universities, Think Tanks, NGOs, Carbon Trading firms and exchanges, hedge funds, banks, green investment companies, the list goes on and on…

The EU alone is spending 1.9 Billion Euros on on climate change research this period. That is only the EU and is is orders of magnitude larger than the amount spent by the ‘denial industry’.

156 Unakite  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:34:16pm

re: #142 Walter L. Newton

Go for it. Since I know who Bagua is and I am sure he’s not working for beg oil, and I’m only making 9 dollars an hour right now shlepping furniture, I would like to know who you are talking about, I may want to get in contact with that person.

Here’s two. I don’t work for big oil, or little oil either. :)

157 JohninLondon  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:35:33pm

One BBC weather forecaster was sent copies of emails that had been addressed to him. Apart from that, I do not believe that the BBC was aware of the large stack of emails and the Harry_read_me file exposure of crummy data procedures and programming at CRU.

More generally, until the past couple of weeks the BBC reporting has been overwhelmingly pro-AGW. And that has been as a matter of policy from the top. Last year Peter Sissons, who had just retired as a top newsreader, said that that it was now effectively BBC policy to stifle criticism of AGW. He claimed to be one of the very few people at the (enormous) BBC who so much as raised the possibility that there was another side to the debate. He said that BBC presenters and reporters almost invariably began with the line that “the science is settled”.

The BBC held a top-level seminar some years ago which was mentioned in a report on impartiality by the BBC Trust in a report in 2006. At that seminar it was decided that limited space should be given to sceptics.

I have the BBC Radio 4 news channel on as background pretty well all day long. The tenor of virtually all the BBC reporting until the past few weeks has been that the science is settled.

And as a general matter - the BBC tends to align itself with the Guardian mode of thinking. Left of centre on most economic and social issues. With certainly a preference for Democrats as against Republicans, a bias towards collectivism as against free enterprise etc. It was reported that the BBC was awash with champagne bottles when Blair won the 1997 election - and more recently, the BBC coverage of the US Presidential election was laughably biased.

158 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:39:41pm

re: #153 Bagua

I almost didn’t post a reply to this, because I have a suspicion I know where this will go.

We’re not talking about “discuss(ing) issues and share ideas in a search for truth.” We’re talking about people continually raising discredited points and making every effort to undermine the accepted science without actually saying outright that they believe the science is wrong.

What the anti-agw crowd on here does simply isn’t ‘honest discussion’.

159 JohninLondon  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:41:00pm

To be fair to the BBC Trust, I believe that they specifically declared that sceptics should not be dismissed as “flat-earhters” or “deniers”

160 Bagua  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:45:48pm

re: #158 windsagio

I almost didn’t post a reply to this, because I have a suspicion I know where this will go.

We’re not talking about “discuss(ing) issues and share ideas in a search for truth.” We’re talking about people continually raising discredited points and making every effort to undermine the accepted science without actually saying outright that they believe the science is wrong.

What the anti-agw crowd on here does simply isn’t ‘honest discussion’.

We’ve been discussing AGW and science here for years, as well as media bias. You are here two months and put yourself in judgement of the discussion and other posters? You are not adding any valid criticism, just vague points to discredit the poster you see as anti-AGW. Why is that?

In what way is Walter, Spare-O-Lake, or myself “anti-agw”? Can you cite an example?

161 Bagua  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:50:23pm

re: #104 Bagua

It is true the amounts spent are not equivalent.

Pro-AGW is a multi-billion dollar industry.

Anti-AGW has funding in the millions, not billions, and much of it is done by bloggers and journalists for little or no money.

Not even close to equivalent.

Gee that stung, nine -1 dings. Can anyone dispute the factual basis of this statement, or is this just and inconvenient truth?

162 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:55:09pm

re: #161 Bagua

do you have proof that its true? Burden’s on you, friend.

… also, complaining about downdings? *violin*

re: #160 Bagua

That’s the beauty of the tactic. Nobody can say or prove absolutely that any of the people mentioned don’t believe in AGW. They just passive-aggressively piss on the idea every chance they get.

163 Bagua  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 6:11:57pm

re: #162 windsagio

do you have proof that its true? Burden’s on you, friend.

… also, complaining about downdings? *violin*

re: #160 Bagua

That’s the beauty of the tactic. Nobody can say or prove absolutely that any of the people mentioned don’t believe in AGW. They just passive-aggressively piss on the idea every chance they get.

Wrong again, if anything is “passive aggressive” it is this constant heckling by innuendo. The reason you can’t point to examples is because there aren’t any.

Your primary concern is whether people “believe in” AGW and you are looking for clues that their faith may not be sufficient. Substitute, Jesus, the Bible, Mohammed, Buddha or the Easter Bunny for AGW and it is the same thing. Those guarding the faith would thing the same way.

Alternatively, why not trying to understand what Walter, Spare-O-Lake myself and others are posting and try to address it on a factual level instead of trying to determine our faith?

164 Bagua  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 6:15:15pm

re: #162 windsagio

Also I’m not complaining about the downdings, I’m pointing out that it is amusing that there is nothing backing them up. Only you can express yourself with words in this “debate” yet you are just offering vague suppositions.

Alternatively what I posted is factual and can be supported, it doesn’t require belief, just honest research.

165 Van Helsing  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 7:16:42pm

I’m assuming the that Phil Jones BBC Q&A has been discussed?
BBC
I’ve been away.

166 b_sharp  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 7:27:01pm

re: #20 cliffster

Well, I reckon it would be that scientists work off grants, and grants are given out by the government, and the bodies of the government giving out those grants are likely to continue funding labs that give them the results they want to see.

So, the Bush administrations wanted to see AGW validated?

167 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 7:29:13pm

re: #115 windsagio

Thats the name of the game for these threads. Alot of ‘raising questions’.

“Hey did anyone see that video about 9/11? Could our government really have done this? Or are they perfect and beyond all reproach?Don’t attack me- I’m just askin’ questions!”

“Anyone read that book by Michael Behe about how evolution is a fraud? Is it true - have we been taught a pack of lies all our lives? Or should we believe instead that the ‘scientists’ are infallible?”

“Anyone hear about how scientists keep fucking up the climate data? Is it true, or should we just believe everything we are told like a bunch of sheep…?”

168 Cardio (formerly JRCMYP)  Thu, Feb 18, 2010 6:20:21am

Apologies if this article has already been posted, but the NYT had a short essay where it describes a science historian’s imagined understanding of how a confluence of issues worked to create the climate change denial mentality.

Historian Looks Back At Climate Fight

169 ShaunP  Thu, Feb 18, 2010 6:45:50am

re: #163 Bagua

Your primary concern is whether people “believe in” AGW and you are looking for clues that their faith may not be sufficient. Substitute, Jesus, the Bible, Mohammed, Buddha or the Easter Bunny for AGW and it is the same thing. Those guarding the faith would thing the same way.

I LOL’ed at this. Comparing science and religion is a joke. The basic tenet of any religion is that your faith guides you; there is no literal proof. You can’t measure 20 cc’s of Jesus or note the a change of 20 degrees Buddha.

Science is guided by the scientific process; hypothesize, test, conclude, repeat. Sure, the scientific process can be hijacked in individual cases to promote a cause or idea. But to suggest that 99% of the climate scientists in the world have been corrupted by money, fame or some other unknown, but there is no proof and no paper trail is tinfoil hat talk.

My contention is that there is a lot of competition between teams and there exists motivation for science team A to prove that the hypothesis of science team B is wrong (damn those Harvard bastards). If there was an actual scientific reasoning behind the idea that climate change was not happening and the results held up to peer review, I have no doubt that significant grant money would follow and you would see a shift in the consensus.

In the meantime, there’s just a lot of mud being thrown around by those with no scientific background, about issues that don’t hold up under scrutiny…

170 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 18, 2010 8:53:03am

re: #164 Bagua

Also I’m not complaining about the downdings, I’m pointing out that it is amusing that there is nothing backing them up. Only you can express yourself with words in this “debate” yet you are just offering vague suppositions.

Alternatively what I posted is factual and can be supported, it doesn’t require belief, just honest research.

What you have posted is the usual irrational nonsense you always post about climate change. You are a hardcore denier, and it’s incredibly obvious to everyone here who doesn’t share your denial what you’re doing.

And now you’ve gone all the way to the bottom, using the exact same arguments used by creationists and accusing people who accept the scientific evidence for climate change of being “religious.” It’s pathetic, really.

171 garhighway  Thu, Feb 18, 2010 9:56:15am

re: #169 ShaunP


Science is guided by the scientific process; hypothesize, test, conclude, repeat. Sure, the scientific process can be hijacked in individual cases to promote a cause or idea. But to suggest that 99% of the climate scientists in the world have been corrupted by money, fame or some other unknown, but there is no proof and no paper trail is tinfoil hat talk.

Amen.

172 garhighway  Thu, Feb 18, 2010 10:10:11am

re: #155 Bagua

Universities, Think Tanks, NGOs, Carbon Trading firms and exchanges, hedge funds, banks, green investment companies, the list goes on and on…

The EU alone is spending 1.9 Billion Euros on on climate change research this period. That is only the EU and is is orders of magnitude larger than the amount spent by the ‘denial industry’.

Interesting list. let’s see…

Universities: Oh, yeah. They’re swimming in cash these days. Just ask the good folks at, for example, the California system of universities how much money they are putting into astroturf groups and lobbying related to AGW. Because they have so much spare cash laying around.

Think Tanks: A lot of coin there? Really?

NGOs: Even more laughable. I’m sure Doctors Without Borders is pouring cash into distorting AGW science.

Hedge Funds: Now THERE’S some money. But my observation of hedge funds as a breed is that they spend their money on making themselves more money. (Which is all fine and good. It’s what they exist to do.) But suborning scientists? Not so much. (Of course, if you have ONE SCRAP of evidence to the contrary, that would be another thing now, wouldn’t it?)

Carbon Trading Firms: I suspect, but I do not know, that there isn’t much money there. My further suspicion would be that you could easily stack that entire industry inside one Exxon quarter.

Green Investment Companies: If they are mutual funds regulated here, you can see what is in their portfolio. Their returns are meticulously tracked versus their peers. How much potential return they would want to divert from the shareholders (and thereby lower their Morningstar rankings) to influence science that won’t make them money in this decade is questionable.

Add all of these up, and compare them to Exxon, the coal burners and the rest of those guys and let me know how you think the comparison turns out.


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