Biden’s Magnetic Personality Attracts Infatuated Stalker

Weird • Views: 3,489

I did a double take on reading this — was it from the Onion? Nope, it’s a genuine CTV news story about a bizarre incident in which a man reportedly “infatuated” with Vice President Joe Biden breached Olympic Games security.

A mentally ill man with a homemade security pass was able to get within metres of U.S. Vice President during a security breach at the Opening Ceremony of the 2010 Winter Olympic Games, CTV News has learned.

As dozens of police held back thousands of protestors outside of BC Place in Vancouver, a 48-year-old British Columbia man slipped past several layers of security inside the venue, said RCMP Assistant Commissioner Bud Mercer, the head of the 2010 Integrated Security Unit (ISU).

Mercer said the man’s target was clear. “He had an infatuation with the US Vice President.”

Biden was seated in a section reserved for dignitaries. Twelve steps away from the VP and out of view of the cameras, the man started making his way down the stairs after the national anthem ended.

That’s when two female plainclothes Mounties charged with protecting Biden acted, Mercer said. “They described him to me as simply not fitting in,” he said. “They approached him, determined that the accreditation he was carrying was forged or fake, confronted him and escorted him out one or two steps at which point he attempted to run and was taken into custody.”

Mercer, who heads up the unit tasked with securing the Games, says members of his team were also providing security for the Vice President while he was in Vancouver taking in Olympic events.

Mercer says the man was not carrying a weapon and did not intend to harm Biden.

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301 comments
1 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:57:46pm

Hah. I totally thought this was the Onion too.

However, this doesn’t say good things about that security setup.

2 Locker  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:57:54pm

It’s Biden’s Brute by Fabrerge… completely irresistible.

3 Kragar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:58:12pm

I was expecting the Onion as well.

4 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:58:16pm

re: #2 Locker

Top secret Psyops experiment with Phermones?

5 Locker  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:59:27pm

re: #4 windsagio

Top secret Psyops experiment with Phermones?

That’s what happens when you combine liberal socialists with Dr Strangelove.

6 Pepper Fox  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:59:28pm

I’m surprised this didn’t make it up here, dude lit a cig on the olympic torch (I’m looking at you Dale Gribble Rusty Shackleford.

7 Political Atheist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:59:29pm

It was Biden’s speechwriter with the days assigned gaffes.

8 mideastmidwest  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:59:30pm

Its those white, white teeth…

9 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 2:59:40pm

It’s freaky when you can’t tell real news from The Onion.

10 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:00:58pm

Of all the people to stalk.

I mean, this man’s mental illness must manifest itself in terms of a very low self esteem. If there is a stalker website like “StalkBook” I can’t imagine Biden having more than one”friend”.

I am trying to imagine a personality that would seem less stalk worthy and only Uri Geller comes to mind. “Bend my spoon, Uri. Please…”

11 Kragar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:01:54pm

The suspect went on record as saying “It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again.”

12 cliffster  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:02:16pm

Joe Biden’s magnetic personality

Beat you to it, Mandy.

13 Locker  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:02:27pm

re: #11 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The suspect went on record as saying “It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again.”

He was arrested in his basement playing Lambs with his imaginary friend Bebe.

14 Kragar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:03:22pm

re: #13 Locker

He was arrested in his basement playing Lambs with his imaginary friend Bebe.

He had a Biden costume and would spend long hours in front of the mirror saying “I’d vote for me.”

15 middy  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:04:50pm

re: #8 mideastmidwest

Its those white, white teeth…

It’s the whole package, man.

What’s not to love?

16 Locker  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:05:11pm

re: #14 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

He had a Biden costume and would spend long hours in front of the mirror saying “I’d vote for me.”

My mind seized up while trying to imagine potential celebrities he’d have to stalk to make his Biden suit…

17 mideastmidwest  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:09:37pm

re: #15 middy

The Onion made just illuminated how effortlessly entertaining the man really is.

18 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:10:36pm

So the ad engine seems to have picked up “stalker” and placed a “roadkill t shirts” ad with a - ahem - blond female with an obviously bifurcated chest area.

By all means - refresh until you see it.

Stalking as an industry - there is a market for everything.

19 prairiefire  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:13:00pm

You do not want to mess with the lady Mounties.

20 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:16:02pm

There was a time when the Crazy Canucks used to be on the men’s downhill team

21 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:16:11pm

Well, uh, that’s just creepy…

22 TampaKnight  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:16:22pm

I’m glad Obama let Biden out of the dark room he had been keeping him in.

23 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:18:15pm

re: #22 TampaKnight

I’m glad Obama let Biden out of the dark room he had been keeping him in.

Biden and Cheney were getting wasted in an undisclosed location.
/

24 wrenchwench  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:18:40pm

re: #19 prairiefire

You do not want to mess with the lady Mounties.

Just having “two female plainclothes Mounties charged with protecting Biden” says “Onion” right there.

25 Political Atheist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:20:57pm

Are we sure it was not Dick Cheney?!

26 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:23:23pm

I want pictures of those mounties. I bet they’re cuter than Gaddafi’s camel girls.

27 webevintage  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:23:41pm
Mercer said the man’s target was clear. “He had an infatuation with the US Vice President.”

I wonder if his dog is giving orders to extract a lock of hair from the VP.

(I know this is serious but last week there was a stalker story arc on 30 Rock and we just recently watched Blades of Glory so my first response is to laugh.)

28 darthstar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:24:17pm

re: #24 wrenchwench

Just having “two female plainclothes Mounties charged with protecting Biden” says “Onion” right there.

mmm…female Mounties.

29 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:25:08pm

Right wing mind hive adds to the honeycomb

Salem Communications Buys HotAir.


CPAC hasn’t even officially started and already its making news. Mediaite has learned that leading center-right web site Hot Air has been acquired by Salem Communications for an undisclosed sum. Sources close to the deal claim that Michelle Malkin, the conservative pundit and sole owner of Hot Air, has been in talks with Salem for some time, but the announcement was timed to coincide with the Conservative Political Action Conference, which opens tomorrow in Washington D.C.

Hot Air is one of the biggest, most influential conservative sites on the Web and was launched on April 24, 2006, with Michelle Malkin as founder/CEO (though she remains editorially focused on her own blog MichelleMalkin.com and her own writing and television appearances.) Hot Air is managed on a day-to-day basis by editors Ed Morrissey and the mysterious AllahPundit, who are reported to be part of the deal in the sale of to Salem, and absolutely essential to the core value of Hot Air. We are told that, from a user’s perspective, Hot Air will remain the same despite the change in ownership.

Beathe easy mindless bigots. Salem Communications will indulge your fantasies and still provide you an outlet to express hypochondria about the Islamic/Marxist axis.

30 RogueOne  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:26:34pm

He must have fell in love with Biden’s Hennessy ads.

31 Ojoe  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:27:37pm

You would have to be mentally ill to like any of the current crop of office holders.

The economy is still in the tank;

Iran enriches uranum;

an unsupportable national debt grows and grows.

O politicians:

Mene, Mene, Tekel u-Pharsin.

32 HoosierHoops  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:27:38pm

I just saw Biden on TV.. He has a large brown spot on his forehead..Looks like a bad bump or something..
Anybody know the story?

33 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:27:57pm

re: #30 RogueOne

He must have fell in love with Biden’s Hennessy ads.

Or the Biden/Trans Am pics.

34 darthstar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:28:09pm

re: #32 HoosierHoops

I just saw Biden on TV.. He has a large brown spot on his forehead..Looks like a bad bump or something..
Anybody know the story?

Ash Wednesday…Catholic tradition.

35 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:28:11pm

re: #32 HoosierHoops

Ash Wednesday. He’s Catholic.

36 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:28:36pm

re: #32 HoosierHoops

I just saw Biden on TV.. He has a large brown spot on his forehead..Looks like a bad bump or something..
Anybody know the story?

Ash Wednesday.

37 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:28:49pm

re: #29 karmic_inquisitor

The Hot Airheads are anticipating that the corporate influence is going to mess up the blog. It probably will.

38 Ojoe  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:29:15pm

re: #35 karmic_inquisitor

Yeah, from last year too.

39 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:29:49pm

re: #28 darthstar

mmm…female Mounties.

Is it the red uniform and hat that does it for you?

Inquiring minds want to know. :)

40 RogueOne  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:29:52pm

re: #32 HoosierHoops

I just saw Biden on TV.. He has a large brown spot on his forehead..Looks like a bad bump or something..
Anybody know the story?

Doh!

41 Cathypop  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:29:53pm

re: #32 HoosierHoops

I just saw Biden on TV.. He has a large brown spot on his forehead..Looks like a bad bump or something..
Anybody know the story?

He was admiring himself in the mirror and got a little too close.

42 Kragar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:30:10pm

re: #33 Varek Raith

Or the Biden/Trans Am pics.

Get the Trans out on the White House lawn for a car wash, get a cooler of beer, get Styx “Renegade” playing on the 8 track, and invite the ladies over to watch the gun show. Yeah, being VP has its perks.

43 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:30:19pm

re: #35 karmic_inquisitor

Ash Wednesday. He’s Catholic.

No, it’s a prayer bump. He’s a seekrit Mooslum, just like his boss.

;^)

44 darthstar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:30:30pm

re: #36 Varek Raith

Ash Wednesday.

By the way (and I’m not accusing Hoosier of this), I predicted this morning that people would speculate about the ‘dirt’ on Biden’s forehead…I’m guessing Glenn Beck will piss off his Catholic listeners by mocking the ashes.

45 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:31:56pm

I usually don’t like those fight videos but I have to admit I like this one….
Old guy vs. young thug

46 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:32:10pm

re: #37 Killgore Trout

The Hot Airheads are anticipating that the corporate influence is going to mess up the blog. It probably will.

Mindlessly misdirected angst meets Mindlessly directed angst. Yeah - I can see how they’d be worried.

47 HoosierHoops  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:32:26pm

re: #26 Cato the Elder

I want pictures of those mounties. I bet they’re cuter than Gaddafi’s camel girls.

How come he doesn’t have a Playboy mansion?
Is he crazy? He could have the hot spot in Africa…
Imagine how jealous Kim II is…All that oil and all those girls?
/

48 TampaKnight  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:32:38pm

By the way, a lot is talked about the “radical right” trying to purge the Republican party, but it sure seems like much of the same is going on in the left with the Democrats.

I just looked over the HuffPo and the leftist “Progressives” are cheering Bayh’s departure as a centrist and calling for more of the centrists to make way for liberal (even though they won’t win those seats).

49 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:34:21pm

re: #43 Cato the Elder

No, it’s a prayer bump. He’s a seekrit Mooslum, just like his boss.

;^)

Alternate explanation #5 - he is trying to one up the Dalai Lama, having confused the Tibetan monk look for Gandhi.

50 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:34:37pm

re: #45 Killgore Trout

Ego obliterated!

51 darthstar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:35:08pm

re: #37 Killgore Trout

The Hot Airheads are anticipating that the corporate influence is going to mess up the blog. It probably will.

Salem Communications is a Christian Radio group? And they bought Hot Air? Well, this is going to be interesting to watch.

52 Kragar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:35:27pm

re: #37 Killgore Trout

The Hot Airheads are anticipating that the corporate influence is going to mess up the blog. It probably will.

“Are we still going to be able to make wookie analogies and death threats? No? Fucking corporate censorship. Obama pushing the closet fairness rules, man.”

///

53 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:36:27pm

re: #48 TampaKnight

The cross purification fratricide may end up being a good exercise for American politics. People may finally realize the very high cost of gerrymandering, where moderates are always in unsafe districts and ideologues retire when they want (and get seniority within their chamber).

54 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:36:58pm

re: #45 Killgore Trout

I usually don’t like those fight videos but I have to admit I like this one…
Old guy vs. young thug

[Video]

The guy in the white beard - that was me!

55 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:37:19pm

re: #48 TampaKnight

I don’t think there’s much chance of a serious leftwing civil war. Their biggest problem is not getting anything done. Their base is really pissed about Dems dropping the ball on healthcare reform. It doesn’t look like they’re going to pass any substantial financial reforms either. Dems are blowing a huge opportunity and the base ain’t happy about it.

56 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:38:15pm

re: #50 Varek Raith

My favorite quote: “Ooooh, you’re leakin’”

57 TampaKnight  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:38:21pm

re: #55 Killgore Trout

I don’t think there’s much chance of a serious leftwing civil war. Their biggest problem is not getting anything done. Their base is really pissed about Dems dropping the ball on healthcare reform. It doesn’t look like they’re going to pass any substantial financial reforms either. Dems are blowing a huge opportunity and the base ain’t happy about it.

But that’s my point- I don’t think it’s their “base” that’s unhappy- it’s the left wing.

58 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:38:40pm

re: #54 Cato the Elder

The guy in the white beard - that was me!

Remind me not to piss you off.

59 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:38:57pm

re: #51 darthstar

Salem Communications is a Christian Radio group? And they bought Hot Air? Well, this is going to be interesting to watch.

Family Values deals with a room full of crazy uncles.

60 HoosierHoops  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:39:36pm

re: #36 Varek Raith

Ash Wednesday.

Are you Freaking kidding me?!
Everybody wipes that off after Mass… What? If It was Psalm Sunday would he have been standing there grinning holding a Psalm?
Goodness
Biden Photo-Op’d being a Catholic on a Holy Day..
Good job…
Joe..It’s ok now..The cameras are off..You can wipe the ash off now you blow-hard

61 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:40:48pm

re: #60 HoosierHoops

Oh, I see a lot of people like that. I don’t know much about it, though.

62 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:41:22pm

re: #57 TampaKnight

I don’t think there’s any chance of the Dem establishment is going to talk about purity tests so there’s no chance of a purge. However, I think there’s a good chance the base isn’t going to be energized enough to bother voting. There’s not much point in voting when the politicians aren’t going to do anything.

63 RogueOne  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:41:25pm

re: #48 TampaKnight

By the way, a lot is talked about the “radical right” trying to purge the Republican party, but it sure seems like much of the same is going on in the left with the Democrats.

I just looked over the HuffPo and the leftist “Progressives” are cheering Bayh’s departure as a centrist and calling for more of the centrists to make way for liberal (even though they won’t win those seats).

They’re idiots. Bayh may not have been as far to the left as some would have liked but he was by no means a conservative. He was a solid vote for the administration and he was a sure winner if he had run. They may have rid themselves of Bayh but they’ve also rid themselves of a vote.

64 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:41:47pm

re: #60 HoosierHoops

Are you Freaking kidding me?!
Everybody wipes that off after Mass… What? If It was Psalm Sunday would he have been standing there grinning holding a Psalm?
Goodness
Biden Photo-Op’d being a Catholic on a Holy Day..
Good job…
Joe..It’s ok now..The cameras are off..You can wipe the ash off now you blow-hard

No, people do not necessarily wipe it off.
And it’s Palm Sunday.
And yes, we receive and hold palms on Palm Sunday.
And they are burned later to provide the ashes for the next Ash Wednesday.

65 darthstar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:41:49pm

re: #60 HoosierHoops

Are you Freaking kidding me?!
Everybody wipes that off after Mass… What? If It was Psalm Sunday would he have been standing there grinning holding a Psalm?
Goodness
Biden Photo-Op’d being a Catholic on a Holy Day..
Good job…
Joe..It’s ok now..The cameras are off..You can wipe the ash off now you blow-hard

Back when I was a church-going Catholic, I never wiped it off. Oh, and it’s Palm Sunday, not Psalm…or were you mimicking wingnuts here?

66 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:41:58pm

re: #48 TampaKnight

…and the leftist “Progressives”

How many? (I like the scare quotes on Progressives, btw). Is there a concerted effort to do this, do a lot on the left share this view, is it affecting primaries and candidate choice? We can see all of these on the right right now; I’m unaware of the same dynamics at play (aside from a number of “progressive” people at HuffPo, apparently) on the left.

67 TampaKnight  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:42:21pm

Oh, and the Progressive’s poster boy Bill Maher tore Bayh to shreds and they cheered and cheered.

68 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:42:39pm

re: #60 HoosierHoops

Are you Freaking kidding me?!
Everybody wipes that off after Mass… What? If It was Psalm Sunday would he have been standing there grinning holding a Psalm?
Goodness
Biden Photo-Op’d being a Catholic on a Holy Day..
Good job…
Joe..It’s ok now..The cameras are off..You can wipe the ash off now you blow-hard

Umm, Hoops?

It’s Palm Sunday, not Psalm.

And you are calling practically every Catholic a blowhard. Most of us leave the ash mark on all day, or until it wears off.

I’m going to get mine right now.

69 Cathypop  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:43:07pm

re: #64 reine.de.tout

No, people do not necessarily wipe it off.
And it’s Palm Sunday.
And yes, we receive and hold palms on Palm Sunday.
And they are burned later to provide the ashes for the next Ash Wednesday.


You mean the palms are not for sword fights. My brothers and I had alot fun with them.

70 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:43:12pm

re: #60 HoosierHoops

Are you Freaking kidding me?!
Everybody wipes that off after Mass… What? If It was Psalm Sunday would he have been standing there grinning holding a Psalm?
Goodness
Biden Photo-Op’d being a Catholic on a Holy Day..
Good job…
Joe..It’s ok now..The cameras are off..You can wipe the ash off now you blow-hard

When I attended Notre Dame Elementary School in Belmont, California, I remember the nuns going nuts if anyone wiped the Ash off. So when we walked back from mass in a single file line each of us would bump our forehead into the kid in front of us. Lots of kids with ash between the shoulder blades. Pissed off the nuns and moms too.

71 TampaKnight  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:43:23pm

re: #68 Cato the Elder

Umm, Hoops?

It’s Palm Sunday, not Psalm.

And you are calling practically every Catholic a blowhard. Most of us leave the ash mark on all day, or until it wears off.

I’m going to get mine right now.

Isn’t it fun when people degrade what others do, having no knowledge of it whatsoever?

72 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:43:32pm

re: #65 darthstar

Back when I was a church-going Catholic, I never wiped it off. Oh, and it’s Palm Sunday, not Psalm…or were you mimicking wingnuts here?

We always left it on all day. I’ve had 2 conference calls today with several attendees still displaying their ashes (can see it on their webcam video).

73 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:44:58pm

re: #69 Cathypop

You mean the palms are not for sword fights. My brothers and I had alot fun with them.

heheh.
Not surprised.

I was talking to a friend who I’ve known since 1st grade.
She asked everyone on FB to post the most trouble they got into in elementary school.

Hers was: she and two other girls got caught in the choir loft playing poker during Mass. LOLOLOL! She said they were almost expelled for that one.
I’m still giggling about it …

74 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:45:10pm

re: #44 darthstar

By the way (and I’m not accusing Hoosier of this), I predicted this morning that people would speculate about the ‘dirt’ on Biden’s forehead…I’m guessing Glenn Beck will piss off his Catholic listeners by mocking the ashes.

Well, we’ll see. After his Ganges line, I’m not putting anything past him. Then again, he probably has more Catholic than Hindu listeners.

75 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:45:55pm

re: #60 HoosierHoops

Are you Freaking kidding me?!
Everybody wipes that off after Mass… What? If It was Psalm Sunday would he have been standing there grinning holding a Psalm?
Goodness
Biden Photo-Op’d being a Catholic on a Holy Day..
Good job…
Joe..It’s ok now..The cameras are off..You can wipe the ash off now you blow-hard

It’s Palm Sunday, not Psalm Sunday, but you knew that.

I could never figure out why Christians wave Palm branches before Easter, in the spring, but Jews wave palm branches at Sukkos, which is in the fall.

76 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:45:56pm

re: #71 TampaKnight

Isn’t it fun when people degrade what others do, having no knowledge of it whatsoever?

Not Hoops’ intention, I’m sure.
Hoops is good people, usually.

77 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:46:27pm

re: #68 Cato the Elder

Umm, Hoops?

It’s Palm Sunday, not Psalm.

And you are calling practically every Catholic a blowhard. Most of us leave the ash mark on all day, or until it wears off.

I’m going to get mine right now.

That was the practice in the church I went too. Some people wiped but most left it on. It’s not even just a Catholic practice either.

78 HoosierHoops  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:47:40pm

re: #64 reine.de.tout

No, people do not necessarily wipe it off.
And it’s Palm Sunday.
And yes, we receive and hold palms on Palm Sunday.
And they are burned later to provide the ashes for the next Ash Wednesday.

Hi there!
I always wiped it off….Hope I didn’t offend Catholics…
I prefer the 2nd most powerful man in the world to act professionally, Wipe the ash off.. Face the world and stop grinning while talking about TARP.
I got care if he goes back to his room and whips himself with chains and has the Popes Cell number…
*wink*

79 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:47:50pm

re: #60 HoosierHoops

Are you Freaking kidding me?!
Everybody wipes that off after Mass… What? If It was Psalm Sunday would he have been standing there grinning holding a Psalm?
Goodness
Biden Photo-Op’d being a Catholic on a Holy Day..
Good job…
Joe..It’s ok now..The cameras are off..You can wipe the ash off now you blow-hard

You’re supposed to leave them on until it starts to smear a bit at least. All my students are smudgy today.

80 Cathypop  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:48:10pm

re: #73 reine.de.tout

heheh.
Not surprised.

I was talking to a friend who I’ve known since 1st grade.
She asked everyone on FB to post the most trouble they got into in elementary school.

Hers was: she and two other girls got caught in the choir loft playing poker during Mass. LOLOLOL! She said they were almost expelled for that one.
I’m still giggling about it …


I couldn’t have any fun in Catholic school because the nuns all remembered my big brother and the torture he put them through. CRAP!

81 Cato the Elder  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:48:46pm

re: #70 karmic_inquisitor

When I attended Notre Dame Elementary School in Belmont, California, I remember the nuns going nuts if anyone wiped the Ash off. So when we walked back from mass in a single file line each of us would bump our forehead into the kid in front of us. Lots of kids with ash between the shoulder blades. Pissed off the nuns and moms too.

Jesus used to do the same thing when he was in school.

Oh, wait…

82 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:49:51pm

re: #70 karmic_inquisitor

When I attended Notre Dame Elementary School in Belmont, California, I remember the nuns going nuts if anyone wiped the Ash off. So when we walked back from mass in a single file line each of us would bump our forehead into the kid in front of us.

LOL I attended Notre Dame Elementary School in Santa Barbara, CA - but we did the same thing. :)

83 darthstar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:50:22pm

re: #75 Alouette

It’s Palm Sunday, not Psalm Sunday, but you knew that.

I could never figure out why Christians wave Palm branches before Easter, in the spring, but Jews wave palm branches at Sukkos, which is in the fall.

Has to do with the story of people laying their cloaks and palm branches on the ground as Jesus rode into town. The adoration was short-lived, however, as he was later arrested and crucified.

Easter’s also a floating holiday, falling on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox…there be some pagan influence there, though you’ll rarely get Christians to admit it.

84 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:50:58pm

re: #75 Alouette

It’s Palm Sunday, not Psalm Sunday, but you knew that.

I could never figure out why Christians wave Palm branches before Easter, in the spring, but Jews wave palm branches at Sukkos, which is in the fall.

The week before the crucifixion, Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, and was greeted by people laying down cloaks and branches, beginning the week of His passion. Remembered through the celebration of Palm Sunday.

85 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:51:01pm

re: #75 Alouette

It’s Palm Sunday, not Psalm Sunday, but you knew that.

I could never figure out why Christians wave Palm branches before Easter, in the spring, but Jews wave palm branches at Sukkos, which is in the fall.

It represents the the palm branches that were laid on the road when Jesus rode into town.

86 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:51:33pm

re: #83 darthstar

there be some pagan influence there, though you’ll rarely get Christians to admit it.

I need someone more versed in Church history to check me on this, but wasn’t Christmas chosen to be 12/25 specifically to override a pagan holiday? I assumed this was done for more than one religious holiday…

87 HoosierHoops  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:51:42pm

Psalm
Palm

/Spell Check //on
/Idiot Check //Off

88 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:52:48pm

re: #69 Cathypop

You mean the palms are not for sword fights. My brothers and I had alot fun with them.

They do get used for that.

My second favorite interfaith moment ever: a load of palms were delivered to the church that the synagogue I was working for was sharing space with (are you following all of that?) to use as schach on the sukkah. (For the holiday of Sukkot, a fall festival.)

I was told the palm branches would be there when I arrived, but they were not, except for a few scraps. I discovered, later, that they had been dumpstered by the pastor, who had found them, not understood why they were there, and muttering “why did someone leave us these, it’s not Palm Sunday for six months?” thrown them out.

We had to prune some of the trees on Dolores Street to get the sukkah covered.

89 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:53:29pm

re: #77 Jadespring

That was the practice in the church I went too. Some people wiped but most left it on. It’s not even just a Catholic practice either.

I’m not aware that there is any firm “right” way - I don’t think it’s forbidden to wipe them off, but most people leave them on. Although when I was in school, we’d wipe ‘em off as quickly as we could.

90 darthstar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:54:06pm

re: #86 torrentprime

I need someone more versed in Church history to check me on this, but wasn’t Christmas chosen to be 12/25 specifically to override a pagan holiday? I assumed this was done for more than one religious holiday…

Christmas falls on the 25th, but mostly because it’s around the shortest day in the year, and the new birth coincides with the coming of longer days of sun. That, and the fact that Elvis, too, was a Capricorn.

91 webevintage  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:54:53pm

re: #60 HoosierHoops

Are you Freaking kidding me?!

Are you freaking kidding me?
I’ve never wiped it off, normally went all day with ashes on my forehead.

92 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:54:53pm

re: #86 torrentprime

I need someone more versed in Church history to check me on this, but wasn’t Christmas chosen to be 12/25 specifically to override a pagan holiday? I assumed this was done for more than one religious holiday…

I think it’s meant to fall around the winter solstice. I don’t know why 12/25 precisely. I think there’s some Mithraist connection as well.

93 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:55:02pm

re: #1 Obdicut

Hah. I totally thought this was the Onion too.

However, this doesn’t say good things about that security setup.


LOL….The Onion…LOL
Priceless!
I laughed till my eyes leaked!
Biden…PERSONALITY?..LOL…LOL…..oNION INDEED!!lol

94 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:55:14pm

re: #80 Cathypop

I couldn’t have any fun in Catholic school because the nuns all remembered my big brother and the torture he put them through. CRAP!

I couldn’t have any fun in Catholic school because I was afraid.

95 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:56:31pm

re: #94 reine.de.tout

I couldn’t have any fun in Catholic school because I was afraid.

The stories my mom has shared about Catholic school in the mid-West in the late 50s, early 60s made me view my California-Catholic education as downright hippie in comparison.

96 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:57:00pm

re: #86 torrentprime

I need someone more versed in Church history to check me on this, but wasn’t Christmas chosen to be 12/25 specifically to override a pagan holiday? I assumed this was done for more than one religious holiday…

Well you might not be able to get evidence of a specific decree that set it, but it was common practice to integrate and tap onto celebrations that already were occurring in specific locals. That time of year it was very common to have various festivals based around the time of the winter solstice.

The same sort of thing happened with the building of churches. They were placed where local sites celebrations or forms of worship already ocurred.

97 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:57:27pm

re: #95 torrentprime

The stories my mom has shared about Catholic school in the mid-West in the late 50s, early 60s made me view my California-Catholic education as downright hippie in comparison.

Yep, I was in school late 50’s through mid-60’s - when the nuns were still firmly in charge of the elementary schools.

98 Guanxi88  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:58:19pm

re: #94 reine.de.tout

I couldn’t have any fun in Catholic school because I was afraid.

That whole bit about Billy Cohen suddenly doing so well in math when he was put in Catholic school, eh?

99 HoosierHoops  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:58:39pm

re: #89 reine.de.tout

I’m not aware that there is any firm “right” way - I don’t think it’s forbidden to wipe them off, but most people leave them on. Although when I was in school, we’d wipe ‘em off as quickly as we could.

Well thank Goodness…I thought he fell and hit his head or something..
It explained the excessive ginning by him standing by Obama..
On the Big Screen High Def TV that mark really stood out..

100 SixDegrees  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:58:41pm

re: #29 karmic_inquisitor

Right wing mind hive adds to the honeycomb

Salem Communications Buys HotAir.

Beathe easy mindless bigots. Salem Communications will indulge your fantasies and still provide you an outlet to express hypochondria about the Islamic/Marxist axis.

Any word on whether HA has managed to make any money? They seem to have a business model that consists of burning through sugar daddies rather than actually generating a profit.

It doesn’t strike me as an auspicious time to be selling any business, unless you’re just trying to get as far away as possible as fast as possible.

101 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:58:41pm

re: #88 SanFranciscoZionist

They do get used for that.

My second favorite interfaith moment ever: a load of palms were delivered to the church that the synagogue I was working for was sharing space with (are you following all of that?) to use as schach on the sukkah. (For the holiday of Sukkot, a fall festival.)

I was told the palm branches would be there when I arrived, but they were not, except for a few scraps. I discovered, later, that they had been dumpstered by the pastor, who had found them, not understood why they were there, and muttering “why did someone leave us these, it’s not Palm Sunday for six months?” thrown them out.

We had to prune some of the trees on Dolores Street to get the sukkah covered.

What’s your first favorite?

102 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 3:59:08pm

re: #98 Guanxi88

That whole bit about Billy Cohen suddenly doing so well in math when he was put in Catholic school, eh?

“I saw what they did to the guy hanging in the front hall and I knew they mean business!”

103 darthstar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:00:07pm

re: #100 SixDegrees

Any word on whether HA has managed to make any money? They seem to have a business model that consists of burning through sugar daddies rather than actually generating a profit.

It doesn’t strike me as an auspicious time to be selling any business, unless you’re just trying to get as far away as possible as fast as possible.

Michelle Malkin just made a shitload of money.

104 webevintage  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:00:44pm

re: #67 TampaKnight

Oh, and the Progressive’s poster boy Bill Maher tore Bayh to shreds and they cheered and cheered.

You know I have no problem with Bayh quitting, that’s his beeswax…even though it is lame to stop because the job just got hard.

What I have a problem is the lack of consideration for anyone else.
He waited till it was one freaking day before one could file to be in the primary. Plus he has been raising money. Maybe this come to Jesus moment could have happened a month ago.
What a dick.

(plus I think this is about keeping that 13 million he has raised and trying to win the primary against the President..asshole.)

105 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:00:45pm

re: #86 torrentprime

From Wikipedia:
Date of celebration

For many centuries, Christian writers accepted that Christmas was the actual date on which Jesus was born. In the early eighteenth century, scholars began proposing alternative explanations. Isaac Newton argued that the date of Christmas was selected to correspond with the winter solstice, which the Romans called bruma and celebrated on December 25. In 1743, German Protestant Paul Ernst Jablonski argued Christmas was placed on December 25 to correspond with the Roman solar holiday Dies Natalis Solis Invicti and was therefore a “paganization” that debased the true church. According to Judeo-Christian tradition, creation as described in the Genesis creation myth occurred on the date of the spring equinox, i.e. March 25 on the Roman calendar. This date is now celebrated as Annunciation and as the anniversary of Incarnation. In 1889, Louis Duchesne suggested that the date of Christmas was calculated as nine months after Annunciation, the traditional date of the conception of Jesus.

The December 25 date may have been selected by the church in Rome in the early fourth century. At this time, a church calendar was created and other holidays were also placed on solar dates: “It is cosmic symbolism…which inspired the Church leadership in Rome to elect the winter solstice, December 25, as the birthday of Christ, and the summer solstice as that of John the Baptist, supplemented by the equinoxes as their respective dates of conception. While they were aware that pagans called this day the ‘birthday’ of Sol Invictus, this did not concern them and it did not play any role in their choice of date for Christmas,” according to modern scholar S.E. Hijmans.

106 Cathypop  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:01:17pm

re: #98 Guanxi88

That whole bit about Billy Cohen suddenly doing so well in math when he was put in Catholic school, eh?


Don’t mess with a nun when she has a ruler in her hand. I think they had special classes in ruler use back then.

107 Guanxi88  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:01:19pm

re: #102 Alouette

“I saw what they did to the guy hanging in the front hall and I knew they mean business!”

Hung him on a plus sign, so I knew they took math seriously.

108 Guanxi88  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:01:58pm

re: #106 Cathypop

Don’t mess with a nun when she has a ruler in her hand. I think they had special classes in ruler use back then.

Got struck with a ruler a few times - usually the flat, but once with the edge - paralyzed my hand for the whole day.

109 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:02:24pm

re: #106 Cathypop

Don’t mess with a nun when she has a ruler in her hand. I think they had special classes in ruler use back then.

Our nuns could just look at you just so …

110 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:02:33pm

re: #105 Olsonist

Thanks for that. Every time I underestimate wikipedia, it surprises me.

111 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:02:35pm

re: #96 Jadespring

Well you might not be able to get evidence of a specific decree that set it, but it was common practice to integrate and tap onto celebrations that already were occurring in specific locals. That time of year it was very common to have various festivals based around the time of the winter solstice.

The same sort of thing happened with the building of churches. They were placed where local sites celebrations or forms of worship already ocurred.

Basically, many Jewish holidays have layers: their significance in the agricultural cycle, and their spiritual significance, tied to an historic event.

So Shavuot is simultaneously the wheat harvest of high summer and the commememoration of the giving of the Torah at Sinai.

Interestingly, Islam avoids all this retrofitting of pagan holidays completely, they operate on a solely lunar calender, which detaches the holidays from the seasons.

112 SixDegrees  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:02:58pm

re: #103 darthstar

Michelle Malkin just made a shitload of money.

How much?

113 webevintage  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:03:39pm

re: #112 SixDegrees

How much?

Bunches.
and bunches.

114 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:03:51pm

re: #112 SixDegrees

How much?


Whatever a load of shit weighs?
/;)

115 Cathypop  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:04:02pm

re: #109 reine.de.tout

Our nuns could just look at you just so …


Do you remember the clickers? Those things that made a clicking noise and every one immediately came to attention?

116 darthstar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:04:10pm

re: #112 SixDegrees

How much?

Undisclosed. But you can assume she didn’t sell cheap…she may be a vile creature, but she’s an astute vile creature.

117 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:04:15pm

re: #101 reine.de.tout

What’s your first favorite?

The lady who asked Rabbi Block at Temple Beth Am what time she should show up for the interfaith service…the flyer said ten, but she wanted to be there on time to observe the animal sacrifice, and she didn’t know if that was earlier.

Lovely lady. Read her Bible. Wasn’t aware that Jewish practice had changed slightly in the last two thousand years.

118 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:04:30pm

Christmas …12/25….Is not a literal day of Christs birth.
It is well recorded that Joseph and Mary were traveling to
Jerusalem “to be taxed” ..to pay their friggin taxes!!
This is well documented throughout history as just after the harvest.
Most events in the life of Christ are not “dated” accurately but connected with events on the social and government calenders for ruling Roman Empire…

119 Varek Raith  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:04:48pm

re: #117 SanFranciscoZionist

Lol….

120 darthstar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:05:25pm

re: #118 reloadingisnotahobby


It is well recorded that Joseph and Mary were traveling to
Jerusalem “to be taxed” ..to pay their friggin taxes!!

You callin’ Jesus a teabagger?
/

121 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:05:52pm

re: #115 Cathypop

Do you remember the clickers? Those things that made a clicking noise and every one immediately came to attention?

LOL!
Yes. I had forgotten those ‘til you mentioned them.

122 HoosierHoops  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:06:04pm

re: #91 webevintage

Are you freaking kidding me?
I’ve never wiped it off, normally went all day with ashes on my forehead.

I guess I was never as Holy in public as anybody else..
I’m sorry if I offended

123 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:06:42pm

re: #117 SanFranciscoZionist

The lady who asked Rabbi Block at Temple Beth Am what time she should show up for the interfaith service…the flyer said ten, but she wanted to be there on time to observe the animal sacrifice, and she didn’t know if that was earlier.

Lovely lady. Read her Bible. Wasn’t aware that Jewish practice had changed slightly in the last two thousand years.

OMGOMGOMGOMG!
You have got to be kidding me.
That is funny - in a really sad way.

124 TampaKnight  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:07:08pm

The newest “hate the rich” story is up on HuffPo.

The first comment? An invitation for rich Americans to be killed via rat posion.

“We wouldn’t want to burden the richest households with things like ..excessive tax!
Oh Noooo. High taxes spur unemployment.
Is there anything else we can get for you, rich people?
Some rat poison maybe?”

125 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:08:00pm

re: #112 SixDegrees

How much?

I doubt these blog value links can be believed but this one say Hot Air is worth $2 million. The buyers are suckers though. They are buying the brand of Hot Air without any knowledge about how to create a blog of their own. I think it’s a pretty safe bet they’ll run it into the ground in a year or two.

126 brookly red  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:08:06pm

re: #118 reloadingisnotahobby

Christmas …12/25…Is not a literal day of Christs birth.
It is well recorded that Joseph and Mary were traveling to
Jerusalem “to be taxed” ..to pay their friggin taxes!!
This is well documented throughout history as just after the harvest.
Most events in the life of Christ are not “dated” accurately but connected with events on the social and government calenders for ruling Roman Empire…

Times were different then… now days the taxman comes to you.

127 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:08:14pm

re: #115 Cathypop

Do you remember the clickers? Those things that made a clicking noise and every one immediately came to attention?

Oh! One of the nuns at my school had one of those.
As I said, I had a very easy-on-the-rulers Catholic education. During a particularly bad day, the nun who owned the clicker threw it on the desk and yelled, “I wish they would reinstate corporal punishment in this school!”

128 darthstar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:08:31pm

re: #122 HoosierHoops

I guess I was never as Holy in public as anybody else..
I’m sorry if I offended

Don’t worry about it. I was one of those kids who wore the ashes all day in part because it was one of the few days of the year when I “looked Catholic”…and I could spot others in the street. The rest of the time I walked around with a dirty face because I was a kid, and I got dirty.

129 SixDegrees  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:08:50pm

re: #116 darthstar

Undisclosed. But you can assume she didn’t sell cheap…she may be a vile creature, but she’s an astute vile creature.

I don’t know why I’d assume that. As noted, this isn’t a particularly great time to be selling any business - the goal is normally to sell when you can maximize return, and right now is pretty much the exact opposite of that.

When people sell at the bottom, it’s typically to avoid a deeper hole.

But that’s just how things normally work. I’d prefer to hear some actual facts.

130 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:09:16pm

re: #117 SanFranciscoZionist

The lady who asked Rabbi Block at Temple Beth Am what time she should show up for the interfaith service…the flyer said ten, but she wanted to be there on time to observe the animal sacrifice, and she didn’t know if that was earlier.

Lovely lady. Read her Bible. Wasn’t aware that Jewish practice had changed slightly in the last two thousand years.

Hahahaha!

Little did she know.
////////////////

131 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:09:21pm

re: #126 brookly red
Thus …the SECOND AMMENDMENT!!!
//sort of!

132 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:09:53pm

re: #111 SanFranciscoZionist

Basically, many Jewish holidays have layers: their significance in the agricultural cycle, and their spiritual significance, tied to an historic event.

So Shavuot is simultaneously the wheat harvest of high summer and the commememoration of the giving of the Torah at Sinai.

Interestingly, Islam avoids all this retrofitting of pagan holidays completely, they operate on a solely lunar calender, which detaches the holidays from the seasons.

I wonder why it went the lunar route. I may have to do some looksee into that.

I admit I don’t know much about Jewish holidays and connection with the seasons only that I assumed that there was some sort of connection because of the timing. Thanks for the info.

133 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:10:04pm

re: #124 TampaKnight

The newest “hate the rich” story is up on HuffPo.

The first comment? An invitation for rich Americans to be killed via rat posion.

“We wouldn’t want to burden the richest households with things like ..excessive tax!
Oh Nooo. High taxes spur unemployment.
Is there anything else we can get for you, rich people?
Some rat poison maybe?”

Pointing out that the richest paid the lowest tax rate while their income soared is tantamount to hatred, I agree.

/eyeroll

134 darthstar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:10:08pm

re: #129 SixDegrees

I don’t know why I’d assume that. As noted, this isn’t a particularly great time to be selling any business - the goal is normally to sell when you can maximize return, and right now is pretty much the exact opposite of that.

When people sell at the bottom, it’s typically to avoid a deeper hole.

But that’s just how things normally work. I’d prefer to hear some actual facts.

Any time a self-proclaimed Christian broadcasting network wants to buy a racist/homophobic/bigoted blog is a good time to sell.

135 HoosierHoops  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:11:41pm

re: #106 Cathypop

Don’t mess with a nun when she has a ruler in her hand. I think they had special classes in ruler use back then.

No Kidding…And my Dad is so old school Catholic..I mean he makes Mel Gibson look moderate…I think he whispers the Mass to himself in Latin every week..
Hard Core..
//Daddy? I don’t even think Jesus knew Latin….
Running

136 webevintage  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:11:42pm

So did the new republican Gov of Virgina roll back the rights of gay state workers or not?

tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com

I’m actually asking because I am a bit confused…

137 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:12:08pm

re: #133 torrentprime

Pointing out that the richest paid the lowest tax rate while their income soared is tantamount to hatred, I agree.

/eyeroll

The richest pay the lowest tax rate?

So this chart is wrong?

138 BunnyThief  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:12:25pm

Back in 1988, P. J. O’Rourke wrote that the union of deranged loners with guns was sitting out the election. Anyone, they said, passionate about either candidate (Bush I or Dukakis) to want to shoot either one should seek professional attention.

This Biden-stalker gives me the same vibe.

139 TampaKnight  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:13:00pm

re: #133 torrentprime

Pointing out that the richest paid the lowest tax rate while their income soared is tantamount to hatred, I agree.

/eyeroll

What’s hilarious about 2007, the year they’re bitching about, is the U.S. had RECORD tax revenues to the government that year.

140 darthstar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:13:05pm

re: #137 reine.de.tout

The richest pay the lowest tax rate?

So this chart is wrong?

Feh…33% no matter how we file.

141 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:13:09pm

re: #137 reine.de.tout

The richest pay the lowest tax rate?

So this chart is wrong?

Here’s another chart, for 2010. It also shows tax rate goes up as income goes up.

142 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:13:52pm

re: #137 reine.de.tout

The richest pay the lowest tax rate?

So this chart is wrong?

From the linked article:
The incomes of the top 400 American households soared to a new record high in dollars and as a share of all income in 2007, while the income tax rates they paid fell to a record low, newly disclosed tax data show.

143 simoom  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:14:32pm

Weigel on the Mount Vernon Statement signing:
washingtonindependent.com

The ceremony was moved into a small building set apart from the main house. Inside, a George Washington impersonator, James Manship, made the rounds as conservative activists shook hands and caught up with one another.

Shortly after 2:30, the signatories of the statement — including former Attorney General Ed Meese, Americans for Tax Reform’s Grover Norquist, the Media Research Center’s Brent Bozell and the Family Research Council’s Tony Perkins – lined up on a stage alongside a blown-up version of the statement. Meese rhapsodised about how far the movement had come since the 1960 Sharon Statement crafted by some of the same people in the room today — it now included, he said, “people of various minority groups.”

Hanna read through the Sharon statement and argued that it remained relevant, if one replaced key words. “Communism — or today we would substitute the word ‘terrorism’ — must be defeated, not simply contained.”

Heritage Foundation president Ed Fuelner was given the task of reading out the statement, word for word. As he did so, Manship — the George Washington impersonator — nodded at key phrases like “tyrants and despots everywhere.”

Have American colonial costume (with either powdered wigs or tricorn hats) become the Right’s giant puppets? :P

144 reloadingisnotahobby  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:14:59pm

re: #141 reine.de.tout
…….So …being an under achiever is FINALLY a good thing!
Depending on how ya loo…never mind!

145 brookly red  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:15:36pm

re: #138 BunnyThief

Back in 1988, P. J. O’Rourke wrote that the union of deranged loners with guns was sitting out the election. Anyone, they said, passionate about either candidate (Bush I or Dukakis) to want to shoot either one should seek professional attention.

This Biden-stalker gives me the same vibe.

yet he had no weapon… odd, but maybe he just really likes Binden and h…
no wait that is creepy. Never mind.

146 TampaKnight  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:15:47pm

I’d also like to point out that for most people, income tax is much lower than their total tax burden.

147 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:16:14pm

re: #139 TampaKnight

What’s hilarious about 2007, the year they’re bitching about, is the U.S. had RECORD tax revenues to the government that year.

Doesn’t that need some context in terms of actual incomes for the year? If people should have paid X+1, and only paid X, are we content just because X has never been higher?

It’s not like (contrary to right-wing stereotype) that the left or Dems have some burning desire to always see X go up, no matter what, and that such an event is all it takes to satisfy them.

148 darthstar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:16:32pm

re: #136 webevintage

So did the new republican Gov of Virgina roll back the rights of gay state workers or not?

[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com…]

I’m actually asking because I am a bit confused…

It’s a bit confusing, but the way I understand it is that McDonnell is claiming that the protections for LGBT people implemented by Gov. Kaine aren’t necessary as discrimination isn’t allowed as a general rule. In other words, the previous status quo is back.

149 brookly red  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:16:44pm

re: #139 TampaKnight

What’s hilarious about 2007, the year they’re bitching about, is the U.S. had RECORD tax revenues to the government that year.

/ feed me! urp!

150 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:17:43pm

re: #142 torrentprime

From the linked article:
The incomes of the top 400 American households soared to a new record high in dollars and as a share of all income in 2007, while the income tax rates they paid fell to a record low, newly disclosed tax data show.


OH. OK. That says the rate they paid is at a record low.
It does NOT say what you indicated earlier, that the rich pay the lowest tax rate. Here’s how you put it earlier:
re: #133 torrentprime

Pointing out that the richest paid the lowest tax rate while their income soared is tantamount to hatred, I agree.

/eyeroll

151 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:18:39pm

re: #148 darthstar

It’s a bit confusing, but the way I understand it is that McDonnell is claiming that the protections for LGBT people implemented by Gov. Kaine aren’t necessary as discrimination isn’t allowed as a general rule. In other words, the previous status quo is back.

Discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation (against government workers) is no longer forbidden in Virginia. It’s a rollback of protection.

152 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:19:01pm

re: #147 torrentprime

Doesn’t that need some context in terms of actual incomes for the year? If people should have paid X+1, and only paid X, are we content just because X has never been higher?

It’s not like (contrary to right-wing stereotype) that the left or Dems have some burning desire to always see X go up, no matter what, and that such an event is all it takes to satisfy them.

What people should have paid is what is due in a particular year.

If what was due in that particular year was paid at a lower tax rate than before, then there is no “should have paid”.

153 fizzlogic  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:19:12pm

I doubt the richest pay much in income tax…more likely they pay capital gains.

154 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:19:53pm

re: #137 reine.de.tout

The capital gains rate is 15% and the rich are more likely to pay capital gains than income. For example, Larry Page and Sergey Brin get paid $1 each per year.

155 HoosierHoops  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:19:53pm

Programming Note
Curling is on the Olympics tonight.. This is a Sport?
No..It’s a bar sport.. Not an Olympic Sport..
They should just line up beer, Food and Cigs and play for the Gold..
This is a bar sport…

156 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:20:28pm

re: #150 reine.de.tout

You’re right - I meant lowest for them historically, not compared to others for the year. Good catch; I was imprecise.

Doesn’t in any way make it a “hate the rich” article, of course, which was the OP.

157 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:20:33pm

re: #153 trendsurfer

I doubt the richest pay much in income tax…more likely they pay capital gains.

They set up tax shelters.

Me, I have my own 501(c)(3), so, I don’t have to pay tax.

Too bad I don’t have an income to go with it.

158 brookly red  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:21:24pm

re: #157 Alouette

They set up tax shelters.

Me, I have my own 501(c)(3), so, I don’t have to pay tax.

Too bad I don’t have an income to go with it.

well at least you are not alone…

159 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:21:47pm

re: #153 trendsurfer

I doubt the richest pay much in income tax…more likely they pay capital gains.

The Tax Foundation - just found this by google search, no clue how accurate they are.


In 2007, the top 1 percent of tax returns paid 40.4 percent of all federal individual income taxes and earned 22.8 percent of adjusted gross income. Both of those figures—share of income and share of taxes paid—are significantly higher than they were in 2004 when the top 1 percent earned 19 percent of adjusted gross income (AGI) and paid 36.9 percent of federal individual income taxes.

Looks to me like the richest do pay income taxes.

160 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:22:03pm

re: #155 HoosierHoops

You need to see Men With Brooms.

161 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:22:05pm

re: #152 reine.de.tout

What people should have paid is what is due in a particular year.

If what was due in that particular year was paid at a lower tax rate than before, then there is no “should have paid”.

Again, you’re confusing the facts (lol) with the post I was responding to. Tampa said,
What’s hilarious about 2007, the year they’re bitching about, is the U.S. had RECORD tax revenues to the government that year.
as if the simple fact that the government had record tax revenues should somehow be the end of the analysis on tax rates, etc.

162 webevintage  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:22:15pm

re: #151 torrentprime

Discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation (against government workers) is no longer forbidden in Virginia. It’s a rollback of protection.

So, I guess you get what you vote for….of course this is why there needs to be a federal law that puts in writing that LGBT are citizens with the same rights as the rest of us no matter what the majority in a specific state wants.

163 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:22:43pm

re: #133 torrentprime

Pointing out that the richest paid the lowest tax rate while their income soared is tantamount to hatred, I agree.

/eyeroll

The purposeful ignorance of economics is as bad IMO as purposeful ignorance of science. We mock the people who don’t accept the science of evolution, but the dupes who don’t believe in the Laffer curve get a free pass. For some idiotic reason they hold on to the crazy notion that tax revenues will trend up with tax rates all the way up to 100%. And they get spared the much-deserved mockery.

164 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:23:06pm

re: #155 HoosierHoops

Programming Note
Curling is on the Olympics tonight.. This is a Sport?
No..It’s a bar sport.. Not an Olympic Sport..
They should just line up beer, Food and Cigs and play for the Gold..
This is a bar sport…

How can you put down a extremely popular sport like that. Really, how would you feel if Canada was making fun of US bowling teams?

165 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:23:19pm

re: #161 torrentprime

Again, you’re confusing the facts (lol) with the post I was responding to. Tampa said,
What’s hilarious about 2007, the year they’re bitching about, is the U.S. had RECORD tax revenues to the government that year.
as if the simple fact that the government had record tax revenues should somehow be the end of the analysis on tax rates, etc.

ah.
ok.

166 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:24:18pm

re: #161 torrentprime

Again, you’re confusing the facts (lol) with the post I was responding to. Tampa said,
What’s hilarious about 2007, the year they’re bitching about, is the U.S. had RECORD tax revenues to the government that year.
as if the simple fact that the government had record tax revenues should somehow be the end of the analysis on tax rates, etc.

‘course, my confusion might help if you were more precise, that is, not claiming that the richest paid the lowest tax rate, when that isn’t what you meant.
Just sayin’

167 BunnyThief  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:24:33pm

I find this whole “are we taxing the rich enough” discussion repugnant.

Taxation’s sole moral purpose is to get the government the resources it needs to fulfill its minimal obligations. It is NOT something to be used to “redistribute” wealth into “more fair” ways.

Wealth is rarely a zero-sum game. Some millionaire having money does not necessarily mean I have less.

168 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:24:35pm

re: #159 reine.de.tout

So please do us a favor and look up the income distribution as well. You’ll find that the super rich do super well and if they have an adequate accountant (or lobbyist) they do even better.

169 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:24:37pm

re: #153 trendsurfer

I doubt the richest pay much in income tax…more likely they pay capital gains.

Depends on the rich in question.

In California capital gains are taxed as ordinary income, so you pay 9% how ever you put things together.

When assets take a beating in markets you don’t have a capital gains problem - in order to pay gains you actually have to gain.

If you bank big salary and bonuses (and short term gains) then it is straight income tax and deductions go away very fast. AMT also does its thing too.

The Bush tax cuts actually moved one heck of a lot of lower and middle income people off of the tax rolls. Obama has been careful to say that he will only allow “portions” of the tax cuts to expire, even though the entirety of the package was condemned during the campaign.

170 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:25:11pm

re: #163 Mich-again

The purposeful ignorance of economics is as bad IMO as purposeful ignorance of science. We mock the people who don’t accept the science of evolution, but the dupes who don’t believe in the Laffer curve get a free pass. For some idiotic reason they hold on to the crazy notion that tax revenues will trend up with tax rates all the way up to 100%. And they get spared the much-deserved mockery.

Who is “they” and what if any legislation has been proposed by a left-affiliated group to raise tax rates to 100%? I thought the last Obama proposal was to return the tax rates to what they were under Reagan. Were people paying 100% then?

171 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:25:28pm

re: #154 Olsonist

The capital gains rate is 15% and the rich are more likely to pay capital gains than income. For example, Larry Page and Sergey Brin get paid $1 each per year.

Was that supposed to be the entirety of your comment?
Because I don’t understand where that example was going.

172 HoosierHoops  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:25:38pm

re: #157 Alouette

They set up tax shelters.

Me, I have my own 501(c)(3), so, I don’t have to pay tax.

Too bad I don’t have an income to go with it.

I’m getting about a grand back…
It’s like getting mugged and to add insult to injury the mugger opens up your wallet and throws you a few bucks and walks away laughing..
A bad Sapronos episode every year…

173 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:26:43pm

re: #166 reine.de.tout

‘course, my confusion might help if you were more precise, that is, not claiming that the richest paid the lowest tax rate, when that isn’t what you meant.
Just sayin’

I can repost my apology if you feel it necessary.

I left out the word “historical” from my sentence. I’ll try to watch that in the future. :)

174 darthstar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:26:47pm

re: #155 HoosierHoops

Programming Note
Curling is on the Olympics tonight.. This is a Sport?
No..It’s a bar sport.. Not an Olympic Sport..
They should just line up beer, Food and Cigs and play for the Gold..
This is a bar sport…

First Catholics, and now Curling?

Me, I’ve always enjoyed watching Curling, from when I was a kid and the teams actually looked like just a bunch of old men standing around on the ice with straw brooms in their hands.

DON’T.FUCK.WITH.CURLING…this is your final warning!
/

175 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:26:48pm

re: #167 BunnyThief

I find this whole “are we taxing the rich enough” discussion repugnant.

Taxation’s sole moral purpose is to get the government the resources it needs to fulfill its minimal obligations. It is NOT something to be used to “redistribute” wealth into “more fair” ways.

Wealth is rarely a zero-sum game. Some millionaire having money does not necessarily mean I have less.

Because a lot of the rich didn’t earn that money, they inherited that money, born with a silver spoon, and they haven’t done a lick of real work in their life. That’s a good enough reason for me to tax them, make them pay their fair share.

176 HoosierHoops  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:27:09pm

re: #164 Walter L. Newton

How can you put down a extremely popular sport like that. Really, how would you feel if Canada was making fun of US bowling teams?

LOL
US Bowlers?
Now those are some finely tuned athletes!
/Kingfish

177 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:27:32pm

re: #168 Olsonist

So please do us a favor and look up the income distribution as well. You’ll find that the super rich do super well and if they have an adequate accountant (or lobbyist) they do even better.

OK.
Well, that’s fine with me, actually.
I don’t care to look up anything to make a point you want to make but don’t want to look up yourself.

178 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:27:42pm

re: #163 Mich-again

The purposeful ignorance of economics is as bad IMO as purposeful ignorance of science. We mock the people who don’t accept the science of evolution, but the dupes who don’t believe in the Laffer curve get a free pass. For some idiotic reason they hold on to the crazy notion that tax revenues will trend up with tax rates all the way up to 100%. And they get spared the much-deserved mockery.

So let me get this right. Washington, which is all about sucking the lifeblood out of the human corporation and sharing it with their vampire warren, won’t follow something as patently obvious as the Laffer curve in order to give themselves even more money? Go figure.

179 Ojoe  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:29:03pm

re: #164 Walter L. Newton

I would like to see in the Olympics, the following:

Railroad hand car races.

Single and double-jacking (drilling into granite by hand).

Irish Road Bowling.

Burling.

Caber toss.

180 brookly red  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:29:49pm

re: #178 Olsonist

So let me get this right. Washington, which is all about sucking the lifeblood out of the human corporation and sharing it with their vampire warren, won’t follow something as patently obvious as the Laffer curve in order to give themselves even more money? Go figure.

perhaps it is more about control & power than about money… perhaps.

181 darthstar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:30:45pm

re: #176 HoosierHoops

LOL
US Bowlers?
Now those are some finely tuned athletes!
/Kingfish

I lived in England for a few years, and I was watching the world darts championships on TV one night, and they did one of those “Competitor Profile” stories (like the ones NBC spends more time on than the actual games themselves). The defending champion is seen “preparing” himself for his match…lying on his hotel bed with a beer in his hand and a cigarette in his mouth watching TV while his wife is ironing his shirt for the match. It was a memorable moment in Sports broadcasting.

182 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:30:49pm

The Laffer curve in a nutshell. If the tax rate is 0, then revenue will also be 0. As the tax rate increases, revenue will also increase up to a point, after which revenue will fall as the tax rates continue to increase. At the far end of the curve, the tax rate is 100% and the revenue is 0 again. The trick is figuring out where the slope of the revenue curve changes from positive to negative. In general, the Dems think revenue will increase if the rates go up from the current level, and Republicans think revenue will decrease when the rates go up. But they are both usually just guessing.

183 jaunte  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:30:59pm

Politicians and their constituencies are human, so envy has a good chance of trumping any attempts to gain tax revenue efficiencies with the Laffer curve.

184 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:31:08pm

re: #171 reine.de.tout

Was that supposed to be the entirety of your comment?
Because I don’t understand where that example was going.

Larry and Sergey, two generically hyper-rich dudes, get paid $1 per year to run Google. They own an awful lot of Google stock, so their income is really derived from the rise and fall of the valuation when and if they sell that stock which they do on a regular schedule. They pay capital gains on this rather than income because capital gains is somehow more special than income.

185 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:31:43pm

re: #176 HoosierHoops

LOL
US Bowlers?
Now those are some finely tuned athletes!
/Kingfish

re: #164 Walter L. Newton

How can you put down a extremely popular sport like that. Really, how would you feel if Canada was making fun of US bowling teams?

Well I’m Canadian and I’d say forget bowling. I’d say more something like basketball. I mean really, a sport? Bunch of guys running all over the place like a crazed flock of chickens and chucking a ball into a hoop. Lame, and super boring. A kid can chuck a stupid ball into a stupid hoop without evening standing up.

Now if this hoop ball thing-a-ma-jig game was played more like the Aztecs used to do it, then yeah maybe a sport. ;)

186 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:32:02pm

re: #169 karmic_inquisitor

Obama has been careful to say that he will only allow “portions” of the tax cuts to expire, even though the entirety of the package was condemned during the campaign.

1/3 of the Bush tax cuts benefit went to the top 1%. 70% of the Bush dividend/ capital gains tax changes went to the top 2%.

And Obama stressed, at many campaign appearances, that only those over 250,000 would face old tax rates.

187 brookly red  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:32:23pm

re: #179 Ojoe

I would like to see in the Olympics, the following:

Railroad hand car races.

Single and double-jacking (drilling into granite by hand).

Irish Road Bowling.

Burling.

Caber toss.

remember to always address a caber tosser as “Sir”*

*(I am sure that somewhere out there there are female caber tossers, but I can’t get my mind around it)

188 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:32:49pm

re: #184 Olsonist

Larry and Sergey, two generically hyper-rich dudes, get paid $1 per year to run Google. They own an awful lot of Google stock, so their income is really derived from the rise and fall of the valuation when and if they sell that stock which they do on a regular schedule. They pay capital gains on this rather than income because capital gains is somehow more special than income.

Your original comment stopped after “get paid $1 per year”.
Appreciate you finishing it.

189 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:32:55pm

re: #180 brookly red

perhaps it is more about control & power than about money… perhaps.

“I’m just asking questions….”

190 darthstar  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:33:09pm

re: #185 Jadespring


Now if this hoop ball thing-a-ma-jig game was played more like the Aztecs used to do it, then yeah maybe a sport. ;)

Complete with the penalties for losing? That would be interesting.

191 Ojoe  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:33:52pm

re: #179 Ojoe

Cross Country railroad hand car races.

Like across Nevada.

With supplies on the hand car & extra team members so you can work on and off.

192 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:33:52pm

re: #185 Jadespring

Well I’m Canadian and I’d say forget bowling. I’d say more something like basketball. I mean really, a sport? Bunch of guys running all over the place like a crazed flock of chickens and chucking a ball into a hoop. Lame, and super boring. A kid can chuck a stupid ball into a stupid hoop without evening standing up.

Now if this hoop ball thing-a-ma-jig game was played more like the Aztecs used to do it, then yeah maybe a sport. ;)

I agree… basketball always seemed to me to be more like a foot race, who ever made it from one end to the other more times than the other team before the final bell, they win.

193 brookly red  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:33:52pm

re: #189 torrentprime

“I’m just asking questions…”

and good ones at that.

194 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:34:41pm

re: #190 darthstar

Complete with the penalties for losing? That would be interesting.

Yes that’s what I mean.

I bet the salaries for the players would being really good too.

195 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:35:16pm

re: #193 brookly red

and good ones at that.

I didn’t think you’d defend that last one.

So the “real” reason people think tax rates should go back to Reagan has nothing to do with the deficit, healthcare, social services, etc - it’s about securing power? Or is that still in “perhaps” land?

196 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:35:33pm

re: #185 Jadespring

There is all sorts of complex science going on in Curling… laws of motions, friction, energy resources, temperature extremes… I mean, it’s almost like acting out climate change in front of spectators.

197 SixDegrees  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:36:07pm

re: #196 Walter L. Newton

There is all sorts of complex science going on in Curling… laws of motions, friction, energy resources, temperature extremes… I mean, it’s almost like acting out climate change in front of spectators.

Enjoying Lost this season?

198 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:36:37pm

re: #180 brookly red

perhaps it is more about control & power than about money… perhaps.

So let me get this right. Washington, which is populated by tens of thousands of well paid lobbyists many of whom are former Congressman, Senators and Pentagon procurement officers, is driven more by control and power than money. Go figure.

199 HoosierHoops  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:36:45pm

re: #174 darthstar

First Catholics, and now Curling?

Me, I’ve always enjoyed watching Curling, from when I was a kid and the teams actually looked like just a bunch of old men standing around on the ice with straw brooms in their hands.

DON’T.FUCK.WITH.CURLING…this is your final warning!
/

Name one Curling training center not located behind a bar in the North Country? One?
You remember Rocky drinking Raw eggs in the Morning at 4 am during training?.. These dudes are cracking open MGB’s and waking up in strange places in Marshfield Wisconsin at 4am.. Doesn’t everybody buy you a drink as your nation Curling Champion?
if NBC were smart they would slot all the beer commercials during the curling contests..
*wink*

200 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:37:22pm

re: #170 torrentprime

Who is “they” and what if any legislation has been proposed by a left-affiliated group to raise tax rates to 100%? I thought the last Obama proposal was to return the tax rates to what they were under Reagan. Were people paying 100% then?

I will have to go look for examples of Democratic politicians since JFK to acknowledge that tax rates are too high on the rich. All I can recall hearing from the ones these days is that tax rates for the rich are too low. Its part of the demagoguery they use to whip up the masses in the class envy war.

As far as the proposed legislation for 100% tax rates, I didn’t say anything about that now did I. You are trying to put words in my post that weren’t there. But you already knew that.

As for Obama’s proposal to raise tax rates while we are in a deep recession. Not much precedence for that working ever.

201 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:39:17pm

re: #177 reine.de.tout

OK.
Well, that’s fine with me, actually.
I don’t care to look up anything to make a point you want to make but don’t want to look up yourself.

Reine, I’ve had this argument a million times. Yes, the rich pay a lot in taxes but they make a metric shitload in income. Everytime I have this argument someone trots out the tax tables and they never look up income distribution.

202 brookly red  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:39:26pm

re: #195 torrentprime

I didn’t think you’d defend that last one.

So the “real” reason people think tax rates should go back to Reagan has nothing to do with the deficit, healthcare, social services, etc - it’s about securing power? Or is that still in “perhaps” land?

It’s a whole can of worms, I don’t think raising taxes raises revenue & I have never actually met anyone who wants to pay more, but yes perhaps the healthcare/social services is about power… it might not be but yes, perhaps. I have no answer, now I am just asking questions…

203 BunnyThief  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:39:31pm

re: #175 Walter L. Newton

Because a lot of the rich didn’t earn that money, they inherited that money, born with a silver spoon, and they haven’t done a lick of real work in their life. That’s a good enough reason for me to tax them, make them pay their fair share.


Envy is such an ugly emotion.

The parents paid their taxes when they earned it; why the hell shouldn’t they be able to give it to whomever they wish?

“Fair” is another weasel word. Everyone has their own definition, and that definition is blindingly obvious to them.

Patrick Kennedy, the outgoing Congressman, once boasted that he’d “never worked a fucking day in his life.” I think that’s a pathetic waste, but I don’t particularly feel the urge to get the government to enforce my displeasure and punish him.

204 SixDegrees  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:39:39pm

re: #199 HoosierHoops

Name one Curling training center not located behind a bar in the North Country? One?
You remember Rocky drinking Raw eggs in the Morning at 4 am during training?.. These dudes are cracking open MGB’s and waking up in strange places in Marshfield Wisconsin at 4am.. Doesn’t everybody buy you a drink as your nation Curling Champion?
if NBC were smart they would slot all the beer commercials during the curling contests..
*wink*

Well, there’s the Detroit Curling Club, for one.

205 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:40:23pm

re: #199 HoosierHoops

Name one Curling training center not located behind a bar in the North Country? One?
You remember Rocky drinking Raw eggs in the Morning at 4 am during training?.. These dudes are cracking open MGB’s and waking up in strange places in Marshfield Wisconsin at 4am.. Doesn’t everybody buy you a drink as your nation Curling Champion?
if NBC were smart they would slot all the beer commercials during the curling contests..
*wink*

I dunno. At the basketball game I attended there was a crap load of beer. They even brought it right to us. I wasn’t sure I’d make it out of there without falling down. :)

206 BunnyThief  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:40:49pm

re: #198 Olsonist

So let me get this right. Washington, which is populated by tens of thousands of well paid lobbyists many of whom are former Congressman, Senators and Pentagon procurement officers, is driven more by control and power than money. Go figure.

Money IS control and power. It’s just a way of measuring and expressing control and power.

207 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:41:12pm

re: #183 jaunte

Politicians and their constituencies are human, so envy has a good chance of trumping any attempts to gain tax revenue efficiencies with the Laffer curve.

Eggs-actly.

208 brookly red  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:41:13pm

re: #198 Olsonist

So let me get this right. Washington, which is populated by tens of thousands of well paid lobbyists many of whom are former Congressman, Senators and Pentagon procurement officers, is driven more by control and power than money. Go figure.

/poor man wanna be rich, rich man wanna be king. king ain’t happy till he rules every thing…

209 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:41:54pm

re: #200 Mich-again

I will have to go look for examples of Democratic politicians since JFK to acknowledge that tax rates are too high on the rich. All I can recall hearing from the ones these days is that tax rates for the rich are too low. Its part of the demagoguery they use to whip up the masses in the class envy war.

You started with a “those dumb people who don’t believe that you can’t tax to 100% should be ridiculed”. I’m sure they exist, but where are they in the debate? Who are these people that advocate that view? What legislation has been proposed based on that? There are plenty of evolution deniers running for the GOP nomination, so that’s relevant to those of us with a respect for science and a concern on what policy would flow from that belief. Assuming we all have a similar respect for economics, where/who are those people who advocate the views you’re talking about? Are they a force in the Democrats?

210 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:42:18pm

re: #197 SixDegrees

Enjoying Lost this season?

Yes… because I am a fan, so, I’ll take LOST in what ever form the producers and writers give me… but the show has always been about science versus mysticism, and each season varied, one season science, one season more supernatural.

A lot of supernatural so far “on island.” I prefer the science fiction arc better.

But all in all, very clever how they are weaving everything together toward the end.

211 HoosierHoops  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:42:36pm

re: #192 Walter L. Newton

I agree… basketball always seemed to me to be more like a foot race, who ever made it from one end to the other more times than the other team before the final bell, they win.

I’m being bated!
Basketball is the greatest game of all time!
Speed, Strength, passing, Shooting,
I could go on…

212 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:43:31pm

re: #211 HoosierHoops

I’m being bated!
Basketball is the greatest game of all time!
Speed, Strength, passing, Shooting,
I could go on…

Still looks like a crazed flock of chickens running around. ;)

213 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:44:06pm

re: #203 BunnyThief

Envy is such an ugly emotion.

The parents paid their taxes when they earned it; why the hell shouldn’t they be able to give it to whomever they wish?

I do think tax rates in this country are too low, but I have a problem with the estate tax. Conceptually, it is a double-dip. I think principled, strong arguments can be made that the country cannot afford the Bush tax cuts any longer, but I’ve never felt that “we want to prevent an aristocracy” sufficient to let the government tax money it hit once already just because you die.

214 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:44:26pm

re: #203 BunnyThief

Envy is such an ugly emotion.

The parents paid their taxes when they earned it; why the hell shouldn’t they be able to give it to whomever they wish?

“Fair” is another weasel word. Everyone has their own definition, and that definition is blindingly obvious to them.

Patrick Kennedy, the outgoing Congressman, once boasted that he’d “never worked a fucking day in his life.” I think that’s a pathetic waste, but I don’t particularly feel the urge to get the government to enforce my displeasure and punish him.

Good for you… I was being sarcastic and I was hoping you would mention a prime example of a rich family like the Kennedy’s who happen to be leftists.

Wanna bet the Kennedy’s have managed to avoid as much taxation as they can?

In general, hypocrites.

215 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:46:25pm

re: #211 HoosierHoops

I’m being bated!
Basketball is the greatest game of all time!
Speed, Strength, passing, Shooting,
I could go on…

No, I really wasn’t trying to bait you, and I really think basketball is lame. Of course, except for golf, billiards and bowling, I don’t like any other sports. Those three are real thinking mans sports, relying on brains more than brawn, which interests me much more than some neanderthals bumping into each other.

216 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:47:30pm

re: #206 BunnyThief

Money IS control and power. It’s just a way of measuring and expressing control and power.

Actually money is money and control and power are control and power. Sorry for the confusion. But this isn’t something I can explain to you. You either get it or you don’t.

217 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:47:52pm

re: #209 torrentprime

You started with a “those dumb people who don’t believe that you can’t tax to 100% should be ridiculed”. I’m sure they exist, but where are they in the debate? Who are these people that advocate that view? What legislation has been proposed based on that? There are plenty of evolution deniers running for the GOP nomination, so that’s relevant to those of us with a respect for science and a concern on what policy would flow from that belief. Assuming we all have a similar respect for economics, where/who are those people who advocate the views you’re talking about? Are they a force in the Democrats?

Oh I suppose the pols would acknowledge that a 100% tax rate would indeed kill the golden goose. But ask them if they think revenues will increase if tax rates increased and I’m betting just about every single one would say yes. Heres a question, can you name one prominent dem politician who is or has ever advocated lower tax rates to increase revenue? I can’t think of one.

218 webevintage  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:47:54pm

After the Rapture Pet Care

hahahahaha
This seriously needs the LOL treatment.

(kinda sweet someone would care, but really you the cats are just waiting for us all to get the hell out of here anyway)

219 Ojoe  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:48:15pm

re: #213 torrentprime

Fuck the estate tax. My mom died; there are 8 children in our family; bracket creep; bad market, forced sale of property to pay taxes; no time to mourn; total nightmare; the government is a fucking thief & it takes honestly gotten goods at a vulnerable time & in this case uses the money to reward thieving bankers.

I have no doubt but that the current government deserves to be totally overthrown.

220 BunnyThief  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:48:47pm

re: #214 Walter L. Newton

Walter, Ted got Rose Kennedy declared a resident of Florida to escape Massachusetts’ estate tax.

Even though she hadn’t left the Kennedy compound on Cape Cod in well over a decade.

I don’t begrudge the action per se, but considering Ted’s stance on estate taxes (and other taxes in general), the hypocrisy was sadly unsurprising.

221 Guanxi88  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:49:04pm

re: #179 Ojoe

I would like to see in the Olympics, the following:

Railroad hand car races.

Single and double-jacking (drilling into granite by hand).

Irish Road Bowling.

Burling.

Caber toss.

John Henry was a steel-drivin’ man.

222 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:50:11pm

I’m not infatuated with Biden, I am infatuated with his bitchin’ Trans Am from that Onion article :D :D

223 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:50:18pm

re: #215 Walter L. Newton

which interests me much more than some neanderthals bumping into each other.

I hope this isn’t too off-topic, and the link is SFW, but Johnny Weir had some comments on this recently which cracked me up.

JOHNNY WEIR: Straight men would rather see male spandex butts getting spanked than watch one figure skate

224 BunnyThief  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:51:14pm

re: #216 Olsonist

Actually money is money and control and power are control and power. Sorry for the confusion. But this isn’t something I can explain to you. You either get it or you don’t.

All three are ways of getting what we want. And they are, at a certain level, interchangeable. Money especially — it is readily exchangeable for power and control.

I understand why you might not see that concept. It’s too simple for a lot of people.

225 webevintage  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:51:35pm

re: #210 Walter L. Newton

But all in all, very clever how they are weaving everything together toward the end.

Last night, the numbers and Ben being the one bitching about the coffee maker rules was quite wonderful. Oh and the eulogy.
and Helen.

226 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:51:40pm

re: #219 Ojoe

Fuck the estate tax. My mom died; there are 8 children in our family; bracket creep; bad market, forced sale of property to pay taxes; no time to mourn; total nightmare; the government is a fucking thief & it takes honestly gotten goods at a vulnerable time & in this case uses the money to reward thieving bankers.

I have no doubt but that the current government deserves to be totally overthrown.

Forced sale to pay taxes. Where do you live? I don’t believe you.

227 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:52:00pm

re: #223 torrentprime

I hope this isn’t too off-topic, and the link is SFW, but Johnny Weir had some comments on this recently which cracked me up.

JOHNNY WEIR: Straight men would rather see male spandex butts getting spanked than watch one figure skate

eehee, so true. and it’s not like football fans don’t already go all bonkers with costumes anyway!

228 HoosierHoops  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:52:49pm

re: #212 Jadespring

Still looks like a crazed flock of chickens running around. ;)

I played.. I taught my boys.. We are on the court..I’m going to score..I’ll shoot now and make it and drive to the hoops and you won’t stop me…
How are you going to stop me? It’s just me and you.. You have to beat your own man in Ball..
Then there are 4 other guys are your team facing their own battles..You come together as a team to beat them as a team…After running up and down like chickens you know who is gassed and who on your team can just trash the guy…You direct the attack to the weakness of the other team…

229 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:53:03pm

re: #226 Olsonist

Forced sale to pay taxes. Where do you live? I don’t believe you.

Maybe some weird alphabet soup home loan is involved? I’m curious where he lives too, though. o_O

230 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:53:48pm

re: #224 BunnyThief

All three are ways of getting what we want. And they are, at a certain level, interchangeable. Money especially — it is readily exchangeable for power and control.

I understand why you might not see that concept. It’s too simple for a lot of people.

Interchangeable? Yeah, money can buy you love. Definitely. You can buy oil but money isn’t oil either.

231 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:53:56pm

re: #217 Mich-again

Oh I suppose the pols would acknowledge that a 100% tax rate would indeed kill the golden goose. But ask them if they think revenues will increase if tax rates increased and I’m betting just about every single one would say yes. Heres a question, can you name one prominent dem politician who is or has ever advocated lower tax rates to increase revenue? I can’t think of one.

Since many economists hold that very view “they think revenues will increase if tax rates increased” I’m not sure why that’s a bad thing. I understand that it’s an article of the faith that it never works, no matter what, but even the Laffer curve holds that there are points where higher rates lead to higher revenues. Is your contention that we already passed that point?

232 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:53:58pm

re: #212 Jadespring

Still looks like a crazed flock of chickens running around. ;)

Basketball is the only pro sport I can get into. At its best, it’s the most intricate ballet in all of sports. Behind the back dishes to an alley oop, there’s nothing better.

233 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:54:54pm

re: #186 torrentprime

1/3 of the Bush tax cuts benefit went to the top 1%. 70% of the Bush dividend/ capital gains tax changes went to the top 2%.

And Obama stressed, at many campaign appearances, that only those over 250,000 would face old tax rates.

That is unavoidable when the top 25% of tax payers pay 90% of the taxes.

ntu.org

As the tax system gets more and more progressive (a good thing) where the wealthiest pay disproportionately more, any cut for all taxpayers will benefit that group the most.

Get out a spreadsheet and do the math. You cannot have a top heavy tax system and not have this happen. Mathematically impossible.

That talking point is really tiresome and dishonest, especially to people who support tax cuts and a progressive tax system.

Take the time and do the math. You’ve been deceived.

234 BunnyThief  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:54:59pm

re: #226 Olsonist

Forced sale to pay taxes. Where do you live? I don’t believe you.

I find it quite plausible. If the majority of the estate was tied up in property, then I can see the heirs having to sell the property (no matter how bad the market) to get the liquidity needed to settle the taxes.

235 mich-again  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:55:34pm

re: #226 Olsonist

Forced sale to pay taxes. Where do you live? I don’t believe you.

I live in MI and I know elderly retired people who couldn’t afford to stay in their houses as the assessments and property taxes kept getting jacked up when the housing market was hot way back when. They were forced to sell and move because they couldn’t afford the property taxes anymore.

236 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:56:04pm

re: #224 BunnyThief

All three are ways of getting what we want. And they are, at a certain level, interchangeable. Money especially — it is readily exchangeable for power and control.

I understand why you might not see that concept. It’s too simple for a lot of people.

Money is only exchangable for power to a point. Being me with suddenly ten million dollars will not suddenly make me as powerful as someone with a lot of insider access to the corridors of power. It’ll just make a me a rich guy with resources.

237 torrentprime  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:56:34pm

re: #233 karmic_inquisitor

That is unavoidable when the top 25% of tax payers pay 90% of the taxes.

[Link: www.ntu.org…]

As the tax system gets more and more progressive (a good thing) where the wealthiest pay disproportionately more, any cut for all taxpayers will benefit that group the most.

Get out a spreadsheet and do the math. You cannot have a top heavy tax system and not have this happen. Mathematically impossible.

That talking point is really tiresome and dishonest, especially to people who support tax cuts and a progressive tax system.

Take the time and do the math. You’ve been deceived.

I’m not denying where the effects fall - I’m questioning the necessity and wisdom of doing so. Were the tax rates under Reagan, Bush, Clinton so bad that we needed to do it, etc.

238 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:56:48pm

re: #229 WindUpBird

There was a dilapidated house across the street from my sister. I wanted to buy it for my Mom. It was in probate and they hadn’t paid their taxes in 3 years. Of course, the property taxes would be paid when the house finally sold but otherwise the County of Alameda wasn’t knocking on the door.

I think this guy is making it up.

239 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:57:44pm

re: #238 Olsonist

There was a dilapidated house across the street from my sister. I wanted to buy it for my Mom. It was in probate and they hadn’t paid their taxes in 3 years. Of course, the property taxes would be paid when the house finally sold but otherwise the County of Alameda wasn’t knocking on the door.

I think this guy is making it up.

heh, I defer to you, I still rent! I know a bit about real estate, but only a bit. ;-)

240 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:58:01pm

Not forced to sell. The estate could have rented and waited for the market to return. Details. I want details.

241 Ojoe  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:58:13pm

re: #226 Olsonist

California, USA.

Happens more than you think

242 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:58:37pm

re: #238 Olsonist

Forced sale is one of the bugaboos people pull out when they’re railing against property or inheretance taxes. Its hard to find any actual cases of it happening in the news tho’.

243 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:58:52pm

re: #241 Ojoe

California, USA.

Happens more than you think

Where? Which county?

244 mich-again  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:58:58pm

re: #231 torrentprime

Since many economists hold that very view “they think revenues will increase if tax rates increased” I’m not sure why that’s a bad thing. I understand that it’s an article of the faith that it never works, no matter what, but even the Laffer curve holds that there are points where higher rates lead to higher revenues. Is your contention that we already passed that point?

I say yes. But my opinion and $10 combined are worth $10.

245 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:59:07pm

re: #179 Ojoe

I want to see skateboarding in the Olympics. Oh, and barstool racing :D

246 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:59:13pm

re: #241 Ojoe

give us some news stories.

247 Jadespring  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:59:29pm

re: #228 HoosierHoops

I played.. I taught my boys.. We are on the court..I’m going to score..I’ll shoot now and make it and drive to the hoops and you won’t stop me…
How are you going to stop me? It’s just me and you.. You have to beat your own man in Ball..
Then there are 4 other guys are your team facing their own battles..You come together as a team to beat them as a team…After running up and down like chickens you know who is gassed and who on your team can just trash the guy…You direct the attack to the weakness of the other team…


I know, I know. I’m just teasing in a fun sort of way because of curling comments. I have to stand up for my countrymen and women! All in fun. :D

Seriously though I don’t curl but it is pretty popular around here. One of the things I can really appreciate about it is that it’s a game that pretty much anyone can play and do well at regardless of age and absolute physical prowess.

248 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:59:39pm

re: #241 Ojoe

California, USA.

Happens more than you think

Was the property in some psychotically expensive market like the bay?

249 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:59:39pm

re: #242 windsagio

Forced sale is one of the bugaboos people pull out when they’re railing against property or inheretance taxes. Its hard to find any actual cases of it happening in the news tho’.

I think the 8 children and mom just died was a bit rich.

250 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 4:59:54pm

re: #245 WindUpBird

oh actually responding to somehting earlier. The olympic version of hockey, with alot of checking but not much fighting is mad fun to watch.

Fights just slow down the pro game too much :p

251 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:00:13pm

re: #249 Olsonist

heh you can’t oversell that kind of thing :p

252 BunnyThief  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:00:34pm

re: #230 Olsonist

Interchangeable? Yeah, money can buy you love. Definitely. You can buy oil but money isn’t oil either.

“If money can’t buy happiness, then I’ll guess I’ll have to rent it.” Noted philospher. W. A. Yankovic

Define “power.” Define “control.” For both, money can be used to acquire either in many cases.

“Money” is just something we agree on to represent wealth. If we agreed to it, oil could be money. I can exchange money for oil, and then I can exchange the oil back for money.

If I’m smart or lucky, I’ll get more money for the oil than I paid for it. If not, then I’ll get the same or less. And “the same” is actually a loss, because I lost opportunities to make money.

It’s Econ 101.

253 Ojoe  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:01:05pm

re: #246 windsagio

I am not going into details.

The estate tax is wrong.

254 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:01:55pm

re: #242 windsagio

Forced sale is one of the bugaboos people pull out when they’re railing against property or inheretance taxes. Its hard to find any actual cases of it happening in the news tho’.

What you DO see a lot of, are people who fucking borrow against their insane homes they could never afford in the first place via home equity loans taken out right near the peak of the bubble, then the market crashes, then they owe 3 million on a house that appriases at half that, because they used their equity as magic cosmic money. And then they go BOO HOO MY HOME.


Thank you Atrios!

255 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:01:56pm

re: #253 Ojoe

if you’re not willing to support your points don’t make them.

256 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:02:15pm

re: #254 WindUpBird

that has like nothing to do with taxes tho :P

257 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:02:34pm

re: #250 windsagio

oh actually responding to somehting earlier. The olympic version of hockey, with alot of checking but not much fighting is mad fun to watch.

Fights just slow down the pro game too much :p

yeah, you may be right, as much as I love a good hockey beating :D

258 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:03:06pm

re: #253 Ojoe

I am not going into details.

The estate tax is wrong.

weak sauce dude. I also am starting to smell a contrived story.

259 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:03:08pm

re: #257 WindUpBird

the checking makes up for it man. You see some dude just get plastered, and the play continues!

260 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:03:28pm

re: #256 windsagio

that has like nothing to do with taxes tho :P

It does not, you’re right :D

261 Ojoe  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:03:38pm

re: #248 WindUpBird

Let us say that the property gets evaluated at the date of death & you have a chance for a 6 mos. later re-appraisal but if the market keeps falling you are SOL.

Do your own research about the effects of the death tax I’m not going to talk any more about it.

BBL

262 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:03:58pm

re: #226 Olsonist

Forced sale to pay taxes. Where do you live? I don’t believe you.

That happens all the time.

here is a list for just California.

tax-deed-sales.com

An example of a well known asset that was forced to be sold to payt estate taxes was Reader’s Digest. The heirs had to take it public and sell shares to pay the estate taxes.

Sad too - had mom and dad done some basic tax planning the family would have benefited from the “stepped up basis rule” which is something politicians and plutocrats have used to avoid death taxes since the 1920s.

You often hear about guys like Warren Buffet singing the praises for estate tax. Reasons?
1) Guys like Buffet have long held their assets in income bearing instruments and property which allows them to use the stepped up basis rule and have their heirs escape taxation, and
2) Buffet sells life insurance, which is another way to avoid death taxes - buy a policy that will cover your estate taxes, or use up all of your assets to buy the policy. The beneficiaries get the benefit tax free - yet another part of the tax code designed to reward connected industries and individuals.

263 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:04:20pm

re: #257 WindUpBird

yeah, you may be right, as much as I love a good hockey beating :D

I enjoy a good beating period.

264 BunnyThief  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:04:38pm

re: #236 WindUpBird

Money is only exchangable for power to a point. Being me with suddenly ten million dollars will not suddenly make me as powerful as someone with a lot of insider access to the corridors of power. It’ll just make a me a rich guy with resources.

Ten million? In my state (NH), that’d get you some halfway decent access to the corridors of Granite State power — IF you wanted to spend it on that.

That’s why I didn’t say it was an absolute equivalency. Just that, for a lot of intents and purposes, “control,” “power,” and “money” are interchangeable — each represent ways to satisfy your needs and desires, and each can be traded (to a certain extent) for the other.

But I think “power” and “control” are very, very similar concepts…

265 albusteve  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:05:17pm

re: #255 windsagio

if you’re not willing to support your points don’t make them.

that’s rich….you did that exact thing last night….what a lafffer

266 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:05:33pm

re: #252 BunnyThief

Money is fungible assets. Control and power are at best good will.

Accounting 101.

267 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:06:00pm

re: #265 albusteve

Your first post on the thread was an attack, can we please not play this way tonight?

268 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:06:39pm

re: #261 Ojoe

Let us say that the property gets evaluated at the date of death & you have a chance for a 6 mos. later re-appraisal but if the market keeps falling you are SOL.

Do your own research about the effects of the death tax I’m not going to talk any more about it.

BBL

Aaaand he runs away.

My parents own a LOT of property, dude. And they’re not getting any younger. I know about the death tax, because I’m staring it down. I;ve done my research, my father who is an attorney and a landlord has also done his research. 8-)

269 albusteve  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:06:46pm

re: #267 windsagio

Your first post on the thread was an attack, can we please not play this way tonight?

don’t be so hypocritical….it should be pointed out, yes?

270 webevintage  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:06:57pm

re: #218 webevintage

After the Rapture Pet Care

[Video]hahahahaha
This seriously needs the LOL treatment.

CEILIN CAT IZ CALLIN TEH HUMANZ HOME

BEFORE U GO WER IZ TEH CAN OPENR?

DAWGS WE R NAO UR KAT OVERLORDZ

Yeah, too much time on my hands….

271 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:06:58pm

re: #267 windsagio

Your first post on the thread was an attack, can we please not play this way tonight?

Don’t feed the grumpus :D

272 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:07:47pm

re: #265 albusteve

if you’re not willing to support your points don’t make them.


that’s rich…you did that exact thing last night…what a lafffer

SOP.

273 windsagio  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:08:19pm

re: #268 WindUpBird

I’m with you on that. I’m gonna get reamed by the inheritance tax (lol private lake and beach /brag off) but we’re not gonna be forced to sell any of it.

re: #271 WindUpBird

oh I’m done don’t worry. That post was for everyone else ;)

274 BunnyThief  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:09:38pm

re: #266 Olsonist

Money is fungible assets. Control and power are at best good will.

Accounting 101.

Touche’. I’m no CPA, so I don’t think that way. But I respect that perspective.

But off the balance sheets, money is often exchanged for power and control. Once you get past base needs (survival), that’s its most common use.

I want to Control my personal environment. I will buy a house, a car, a big TV to do so. I am using money for control.

I want to have Power over society. I will donate to political candidates and causes that reflect my opinions, in hopes that they will be more widely accepted. I am using money for power.

275 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:11:56pm

re: #274 BunnyThief

You think you’re using money for power. In fact, you’re giving money for belief.

276 BunnyThief  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:15:42pm

re: #275 Olsonist

OK, how about this: you pissed me off. I want Power over you, so I hire a hit man to rub you out.

Or I decide to hire people to harass you in every legal fashion imaginable.

That direct enough?

Alternately, how I define the “power” I wish is entirely up to me. If I spend a bunch of money on getting a certain law passed, and it is then passed, then I have exercised power in a way that is directly relevant and important to me. I am satisfied with the exchange of my money for those results.

277 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:20:38pm

re: #276 BunnyThief

That’s power. You are exchanging money in a transaction and getting something for it. Giving money to a cause be it political or religious is exchanging money for belief. It is however your money until it becomes their money.

278 BunnyThief  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:22:08pm

So you argued my point, didn’t like my example, but now are agreeing with me? I’m getting a little confused here…

279 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:23:47pm

Nope. I’ve been distinguishing money and power all along.

280 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:27:41pm

re: #237 torrentprime

I’m not denying where the effects fall - I’m questioning the necessity and wisdom of doing so. Were the tax rates under Reagan, Bush, Clinton so bad that we needed to do it, etc.

Well you trotted out the “disproportionate benefit” talking point that progressives often invoke while ignorant of the math, so i jumped on you. Sorry.

As for necessity, we’d all be best to try to look at tax policy from the least “moral”perspective we can. If the US Congress (which is given the power to tax and spend) were to run the Government in complete self interest and try to optimize the tax rates where the highest gross receipts would come into the government and the least would have to be paid out, a few things would become obvious:

1) It makes no sense whatsoever to tax the poor. the cost of doing so and the cost of enforcement (and the cost of engendering anti-social behavior around cheating) don’t make the revenue worth it.

2) Taxing much of the modest incomed elderly, who receive massive subsidies, makes little sense, generates little revenue, and makes demands on social services such as un needed tax assistance.

3) Taxing the rich does make sense but not to the degree that you drive assets and capital off shore. At a 25% marginal tax rate with no deductions you actually have an inviting place to make big money. As you make big money here instead of elsewhere, the tax receipts land in the US treasury instead of the Chinese government or the Irish government. This is especially true of corporations. It is easy to scape goat corporations as bad guys, but most people employed in the US work for a corporation. us corporate tax rates are among the highest in the world and punish businesses for basing their operations here.

en.wikipedia.org


4) Taxing the upper middle class is where you want to put much of the tax incentives in the tax code. That is because this is the largest number of people with sizable disposable income. How they spend that money has cost implications for government - when people buy lots of large vehicles, roads have to be built and maintained. When people take that money and, instead, invest it in the markets you have the potential for a capital supply to fuel yet more business and employment growth.

If you look at that list, you will see that we are actually pretty close to that model except the glaring exception of number 3. if you want to tax the rich anyway, fine - go ahead. but every American should look at the common sense case for creating an incentive for corporations to do business here and hire more people. More people working means fewer people getting government assistance.

Another thing - the closest we’ve had to having a tax policy which did these things was George W. Bush. I know that makes many people’s heads spin in fury but it is true. place the supposed morality of taxing the rich for all their worth aside and look to optimizing revenue flows into the Government. When that happens, progressives can have plenty of money to spend on all sorts of programs. When they get besides themselves trying to punish “selfishness” they cut off their own noses to spite their faces.

281 BunnyThief  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:35:32pm

re: #279 Olsonist

Nope. I’ve been distinguishing money and power all along.

Oh, absolutely they’re different. For one, my bank won’t take “power” to cover my overdrafts.

But in the macro picture, the two are readily exchangeable. The exchange rate is constantly fluid, but trading one for the other has been going on as long as both existed.

282 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:36:21pm

re: #280 karmic_inquisitor

Bush shifted the tax burden to the middle class, away from the wealthy.

So I’m not quite sure how Bush was the best at this.

283 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:42:59pm

From the NTU: Top 25% $66,532 86.59
Median income for 2007 was $50,233.

Fine, the ‘rich’ are paying more. Now let’s look at income distribution:

The top 3.65%, with incomes over $200,000, earned 17.5%. BTW, the bottom 10.3% earned 1.06% of all income.

284 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:44:09pm

re: #206 BunnyThief

Money IS control and power. It’s just a way of measuring and expressing control and power.

re: #281 BunnyThief

Oh, absolutely they’re different. For one, my bank won’t take “power” to cover my overdrafts.

But in the macro picture, the two are readily exchangeable. The exchange rate is constantly fluid, but trading one for the other has been going on as long as both existed.

285 BunnyThief  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:48:09pm

Sorry, I got all macro right from the outset. I was thinking big-picture up front, not day-to-day.

In the abstract, though, “money” is simply a concept to keep track of our ability to influence our environment. Its more prosaic functions, though, do tend to dominate our lives…

286 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:48:15pm

re: #283 Olsonist

I should have added that this doesn’t take into account that blessed little loophole for the rich, the capital gains tax cuz, you know, capital gains are special.

287 BunnyThief  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:53:56pm

“Capital gains” and “capital losses” reflect, generally, economic activity that are likely to benefit the economy as a whole. So, yeah, they’re a little different.

288 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 5:57:38pm

re: #287 BunnyThief

“Capital gains” and “capital losses” reflect, generally, economic activity that are likely to benefit the economy as a whole. So, yeah, they’re a little different.

And how is that different from working at Walmart? Is working at Walmart less?

289 BunnyThief  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 6:00:43pm

re: #288 Olsonist

Well, for one, the average greeter at Wal-Mart doesn’t hire many people.

For another, there’s not much risk of losing money while working at Wal-Mart.

Nothing against Wally World — I think they’re overall a plus to the economy; they hire a lot of people who would otherwise be relying even more on public support, and provide goods and services at low prices for people of limited means — but in this context, their employees don’t really factor into the discussion.

290 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 6:04:38pm

re: #282 Obdicut

Bush shifted the tax burden to the middle class, away from the wealthy.

So I’m not quite sure how Bush was the best at this.

Please back that assertion up.

Because the IRS’ own statistics contradict it.

I know it is an oft repeated talking point, and no doubt someone sttod on his head, closed an eyeball, and hummed “battle Hymn of the Republic” while drawing out a byzantine argument to support the claim, but the raw numbers for 2006 vs 1999 show -

1) The top 1% of income earners saw their share of all federal income tax payments increase by 10%. They went from picking up 36% of the tab to 40% of the tab. 4% over 36% reporesents a 10% increase in their share.

2) The bottom 50% saw their portion of all federal income taxes drop by 25%. They paid 4% of the tab in 1999 and 3% in 2006. 1% over 4% is a 25% drop that they experienced.

Both in real and proportional terms, the rich paid more. Proportionately everyone else paid less, with the bottom 50% seeing the largest benefit both proportionately and in real terms.

ntu.org

Do the math - it is not something that is difficult to establish. I know these talking points were favored in the election and unchallenged by the media, and anyone who tried to explain that they are wrong were screamed at as selfish parasites, but it is simply a fact that the Bush tax changes had the poor paying less of the tab and the rich paying more, both proportionately and in real terms.

And if that seems counterintuitive, realize that tax cuts, when they spur growth, result in more money coming into the federal government.

tax increases work the inverse, often depressing growth and leading to smaller revenues.

291 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 6:07:04pm

re: #289 BunnyThief

Let’s distinguish between Walmart the company and Walmart the stock. If I own Walmart stock and sit at home clipping dividend coupons, how is that special? The greeter shows up and works but I don’t think I’m hiring anyone to clip the coupons.

292 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 6:08:57pm

re: #290 karmic_inquisitor

Dang KI, that Bush sounds like he was just mighty hard on the rich. He’s so well known for that.

293 BunnyThief  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 6:10:33pm

Well, you bought the stock from somebody…

And the dividends are essentially interest on the money you’ve loaned Wal-Mart by buying and holding their stock. They’ve been using the money from that stock sale (and the leverage based on the stock’s value) to grow and prosper, hiring more people (among other things).

I’m not a trained economist, but I think I have the general theory down OK…

294 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 6:14:15pm

re: #292 Olsonist

Dang KI, that Bush sounds like he was just mighty hard on the rich. He’s so well known for that.

Well there is a narrow perspective. And what he is “known for” has to do with how he was defined by his opponents.

The facts remain - if you can grow the economy while taxing at lower marginal rates, you see more revenue and (with our progressive tax system) you see more an more of the total burden going to the top earners.

But they are happy to pay it because they are making more money in real terms.

Why progressives have this moral stick up their collective asses that requires them to condemn a system that benefits everyone is simply beyond me. It is akin to climate change denial - an ideological need to dismiss a simple, demonstrable phenomenon and then ascribe motives to those who simply point it out.

295 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 6:15:03pm

re: #293 BunnyThief

Your general theory is just fine. But Walmart the company has its own books and pays its own taxes. It hires greeters and writes down expenses on its own. On the other hand a stock owner is not lending money—that would be a bond. A stock owner owns, for lack of a better word, property.

296 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 6:32:31pm

re: #294 karmic_inquisitor

So you mean to say that all those rich people, the Ken Lays et cetera, who donated money to get Bush elected got it all wrong? Hmmm… Still, if you look at the history of income taxes you’ll see that the rich are doing quite well.

The facts remain - if you can grow the economy while taxing at lower marginal rates, you see more revenue and (with our progressive tax system) you see more an more of the total burden going to the top earners.

Didn’t Reagan actually try this and didn’t it fail terribly?

297 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 6:49:41pm

re: #296 Olsonist

So you mean to say that all those rich people, the Ken Lays et cetera, who donated money to get Bush elected got it all wrong? Hmmm… Still, if you look at the history of income taxes you’ll see that the rich are doing quite well.

Didn’t Reagan actually try this and didn’t it fail terribly?

So that is what we are down to? Ken Lay? All rich people are Ken Lay?

And what do you mean by “who donated money to get Bush elected got it all wrong?”

Are you claiming that a candidate is soiled by having rich people donate money to him? Heard of Barack Obama?

And the “getting it all wrong” - again, if you pay more but get back much more, are you ahead or behind on the deal? If you pay interest to a bank to start a business and it pays you more back than the interest, is that good or bad? If you take out a second loan on the business to expand it and you earn even more money, you are now paying even more to the bank - good deal or bad deal?

You may want to outlaw greed and make profit making a cardinal state sin, but it will continue to happen despite your disdain for it or even attempts to make it illegal. You might as well have a tax system that exploits it and maximizes revenue to the state.

You know, profit making is very much like sex - when others are having it the moralists go absolutely nuts.

298 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 6:56:48pm

re: #297 karmic_inquisitor

So that is what we are down to? Ken Lay? All rich people are Ken Lay?


Ken Lay was one of Bush’s biggest contributors. It’s just a fact.

Again, Reagan tried the Laffer Curve. Interesting idea but it didn’t work. Didn’t work.

299 karmic_inquisitor  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 7:03:08pm

re: #298 Olsonist

Ken Lay was one of Bush’s biggest contributors. It’s just a fact.

Again, Reagan tried the Laffer Curve. Interesting idea but it didn’t work. Didn’t work.

How didn’t it work? Stagflation preceded a 25 year economic expansion. revenues to the government skyrocketed as did productivity and job growth. Another naked assertion. repeated.

Oh - and the world’s pre-eminent currency manipulator and hedge fund mogul was a big Obama contributor and campaigner. George Soros. (Yes - I can trot out scary capitalist boogey men too. It has nothing to do with what makes for good policy. If Ken Lay says he is against child rape are you for it? Come on.)

300 Olsonist  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 7:18:32pm

re: #299 karmic_inquisitor

It didn’t work because the deficit skyrocketed and they ended it. What you call supply side economics most people call a Keynesian stimulus package. As a general tax policy, it didn’t work or Reagan would have kept it.

301 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Wed, Feb 17, 2010 7:30:16pm

re: #290 karmic_inquisitor

Condescension doesn’t suit you.

Is there any particular reason that in responding to an assertion about the taxation on the middle class, you didn’t talk about the middle class?


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