Morning all. Interesting story. I wonder how many other agents the Shin Bet has inside the territories.

I would love to send a copy of that book to Richard Goldstone.

re: #1 Bubblehead II

What is the current population?

re: #1 Bubblehead II

Morning all. Interesting story. I wonder how many other agents the Shin Bet has inside the territories.

I betcha' Hamas is wondering that, too.

ROFLMAO!

It's right on the money and probably would anger more than just the Shin Bet; it would throw all the attempts at a peace process out the window because it gets to the essential truth about the Hamas and Fatah leadership - they are terrorist organizations dedicated to nothing less than the destruction of Israel. No peace or long term accommodation is possible. Hudnas are what we can expect at the best - and that's just a lull between the violence.

If anything, the events of the past week bear out this guy's statements what with the way that Israel sought to protect two Jewish holy sites in the West Bank calling them national heritage sites, and Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah all said that it would lead to a resumption of war and an intifada against Israel if that came to pass. All for protecting a shared history - particularly in the Cave of Machpellah (Tomb of the Patriarchs, which is the burial place of the father of shared ancestry of both Jews and Muslims, Abraham).

re: #5 lawhawk

It's right on the money and probably would anger more than just the Shin Bet; it would throw all the attempts at a peace process out the window because it gets to the essential truth about the Hamas and Fatah leadership - they are terrorist organizations dedicated to nothing less than the destruction of Israel. No peace or long term accommodation is possible. Hudnas are what we can expect at the best - and that's just a lull between the violence.

If anything, the events of the past week bear out this guy's statements what with the way that Israel sought to protect two Jewish holy sites in the West Bank calling them national heritage sites, and Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah all said that it would lead to a resumption of war and an intifada against Israel if that came to pass. All for protecting a shared history - particularly in the Cave of Machpellah (Tomb of the Patriarchs, which is the burial place of the father of shared ancestry of both Jews and Muslims, Abraham).

Fatah and Hamas dont care about a shared history. They want to eradicate Jews and Israel from history.

re: #3 MikeySDCA

Gaza population reaches 1.4 million: census

WOOOAH!
Pretty crazy -- its a little unclear from the story but it sounds like he started collaborating with Israel before he converted but continued to inform for some time afterwards. Dangerous stuff -- I wonder how someone stays sane while keeping all those secrets.

There have been always plenty of Palestinian informants willing to collaborate for money but it sounds like, from the interview, that he has ideological reasons as well.

And he says he wants to go rescue Gilad ...

It's interesting. When I was reading Venona, I had a conversation with my husband about why any American would spy for Russia.

He was convinced it was money. I would guess ideology. During the 30's and 40's there were a lot of people who were very committed to communism, although to understand why you also need to take a long hard look at social conditions during industrial revolution.*

I believe there's an acronym spelling out the reasons, and three of them are M-money, E-ego, and I-ideology. What are the others? Anyone remember?

*Just to be clear, this is my usual "agree with the problem, but not the solution" stance on communism.

Don't you know that every close associate of his will be scrutinized for ages?

re: #10 MandyManners

Don't you know that every close associate of his will be scrutinized for ages?

Yes, but they'll also be busy eating each other for at least as long. The slightest questioning of a superior will be seen as evidence of "Zionist taint". Delicious.

re: #4 MandyManners

Wonder how long it will be before we start seeing individuals trying to learn how to fly from the tops of large buildings again.

re: #10 MandyManners

Don't you know that every close associate of his will be scrutinized for ages?

I imagine their is already a purge brewing amongst the Hamas ranks. They'll probably be tearing themselves apart over the next few months as they try to deal with this.

re: #11 thedopefishlives

re: #12 Bubblehead II

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I hope it turns into a massive, paranoid cluster-fuck.

re: #14 MandyManners

re: #12 Bubblehead II

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I hope it turns into a massive, paranoid cluster-fuck.

Well, it is Gaza, so not exactly much of a change.

re: #5 lawhawk

It's right on the money and probably would anger more than just the Shin Bet; it would throw all the attempts at a peace process out the window because it gets to the essential truth about the Hamas and Fatah leadership - they are terrorist organizations dedicated to nothing less than the destruction of Israel. No peace or long term accommodation is possible. Hudnas are what we can expect at the best - and that's just a lull between the violence.

To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle.
-- George Orwell

That's some incredible bravery from Mosab Hassan Yousef, not only corroborating with the Israelis, but also converting to Christianity despite the possible repercussions. I imagine that when this came to light, there was a massive purging of the bowels by the jihadists. Now everyone and anyone around them could be corroborating with Israel.

re: #14 MandyManners

Me too, just hope the innocents don't get swept up in it.

It's always been a religious war, not a war over territory.
Until that's acknowledged and the focus shifts to fundamental changes in the religious views of the palestinians ( and others in the muslim world) there is little chance that there will ever be peace.
US administrations, not just the current one, have all focused on land while ignoring the religious aspects of the never ending arab war on Israel.

re: #14 MandyManners

re: #12 Bubblehead II

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I hope it turns into a massive, paranoid cluster-fuck.

Time to stock up on popcorn?

re: #14 MandyManners

Maybe a return of the RoosterCam? ;)

re: #15 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Well, it is Gaza, so not exactly much of a change.

Yes, paranoia and an affinity for conspiracy theories seems to endemic there. The West Bank, too.

seem

re: #17 commadore183

That's some incredible bravery from Mosab Hassan Yousef, not only corroborating with the Israelis, but also converting to Christianity despite the possible repercussions. I imagine that when this came to light, there was a massive purging of the bowels by the jihadists. Now everyone and anyone around them could be corroborating with Israel.

Me too, just hope the innocents don't get swept up in it.

So do I.

re: #21 MandyManners

Yes, paranoia and an affinity for conspiracy theories seems to endemic there. The West Bank, too.

True.

re: #21 MandyManners

Yes, paranoia and an affinity for conspiracy theories seems to endemic there. The West Bank, too.

When you live in the bumhole of the great rounded ass of the world, it's hard NOT to be paranoid and have an affinity for conspiracy theories.

Rooster cam! Rooster cam!

(I'm not even sure what there would be to watch, certainly not the executions, I just wanted to get a pitch in for the LGF rooster.)

re: #26 EmmmieG

Rooster cam! Rooster cam!

(I'm not even sure what there would be to watch, certainly not the executions, I just wanted to get a pitch in for the LGF rooster.)

I miss the rooster.

re: #19 Bagua

Time to stock up on popcorn?

Especially if it's haram.

re: #20 commadore183

Maybe a return of the RoosterCam? ;)

It just might be a righteous cock-up.

re: #21 MandyManners

I think it's partially because of the ultracorrupt government. My experiences in rural India, where the political system is just as corrupt, was that they believed in many conspiracy stories too, including quite a few about Jews-- in a kind of 'pro-Jew' way, but still conspiracy theories.

re: #25 thedopefishlives

When you live in the bumhole of the great rounded ass of the world, it's hard NOT to be paranoid and have an affinity for conspiracy theories.

You have a way with words.

re: #27 reine.de.tout

I miss the rooster.

Why did the rooster cross the road?

re: #29 MandyManners

It just might be a righteous cock-up.

It would be fowl not to remember our rooster with fondness.

So... here we go again, hoping for more war over there, a good show, I don't understand. I can't stand any of those murderous jerks over there, but why are we talking about popcorn and stuff like this was some sort of sporting event?

re: #30 Obdicut

I think it's partially because of the ultracorrupt government. My experiences in rural India, where the political system is just as corrupt, was that they believed in many conspiracy stories too, including quite a few about Jews-- in a kind of 'pro-Jew' way, but still conspiracy theories.

It goes beyond a corrupt government. Hamas is first and foremost a terrorist organization.

I hope this guy got a medal for his work.

re: #9 EmmmieG

It's interesting. When I was reading Venona, I had a conversation with my husband about why any American would spy for Russia.

He was convinced it was money. I would guess ideology. During the 30's and 40's there were a lot of people who were very committed to communism, although to understand why you also need to take a long hard look at social conditions during industrial revolution.*

I believe there's an acronym spelling out the reasons, and three of them are M-money, E-ego, and I-ideology. What are the others? Anyone remember?

*Just to be clear, this is my usual "agree with the problem, but not the solution" stance on communism.

You were correct; in most cases the top level spies and agents of influence were motivated by true belief, not filthy lucre. It's hard to imagine, at this distance of time, what a strong hold soviet communism had on the imaginations of the "best & brightest" of those days.

To congratulate oneself on one's warm commitment to the environment, or to peace, or to the oppressed, and think no more is a profound moral fault.
-- Robert Conquest

...minds of high quality in other respects are not immune to political or ideological delirium...In the Soviet case, those involved thought they knew better than mere politicians like Churchill. They didn't.
-- ibid

re: #33 EmmmieG

He tasted good. A bit tough, but good.

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Fatah and Hamas dont care about a shared history. They want to eradicate Jews and Israel from history.

Without meaning to offend (and I'm certainly not defending Hamas or Fatah here - I detest all violence), I do believe that is a bit of an overstatement. Fatah's beef is more with the Israeli government than Jews in general (Fatah doesn't recognize the Israeli government...that's not the same as wanting to 'eradicate the Jews and Israel from history' - got Godwin?). But I realize that many here equate the Israeli government with the Jewish faith, at least when it comes to discussing Israel's detractors (can't hate one without hating the other, or so the fallacy goes) so I'll defer to your unbiased opinion.

Still, it's refreshing to see that spying was used in lieu of relying solely on military force.

re: #30 Obdicut

If you live in an environment where any official is effectively for sale then the gossip would obviously revolve around who has bought them. And whether that explains the odd behaviors and favoritism one sees in government (especially at the local level.)

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

So... here we go again, hoping for more war over there, a good show, I don't understand. I can't stand any of those murderous jerks over there, but why are we talking about popcorn and stuff like this was some sort of sporting event?

Because Walter, they are a terrorist group who sends suicide bombers and rockets into Israel and persecutes their own people. If they are fighting among themselves, they will be less effective as terrorists. Considering the suffering and violence they cause, a little pleasure at their discomfort is quite understandable.

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

So... here we go again, hoping for more war over there, a good show, I don't understand. I can't stand any of those murderous jerks over there, but why are we talking about popcorn and stuff like this was some sort of sporting event?

If they're busy going after each other, they won't have a lot of time and energy to go after Israel.

"It is impossible to make peace with infidels, only a cease-fire, and no one knows that better than I."

But...but...what about all those J-Streeters and deluded Westerners who tell us that a hudna can bring real peace? Surely they can't all be deceived?

re: #42 MandyManners

that doesn't mean you should enjoy their fighting.

re: #36 LotharBot

I hope they are protecting him and his family. They will never be safe again.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. They insist on killing someone, so it might as well be other terrorists.

re: #39 darthstar

Without meaning to offend (and I'm certainly not defending Hamas or Fatah here - I detest all violence), I do believe that is a bit of an overstatement. Fatah's beef is more with the Israeli government than Jews in general (Fatah doesn't recognize the Israeli government...that's not the same as wanting to 'eradicate the Jews and Israel from history' - got Godwin?). But I realize that many here equate the Israeli government with the Jewish faith, at least when it comes to discussing Israel's detractors (can't hate one without hating the other, or so the fallacy goes) so I'll defer to your unbiased opinion.

Still, it's refreshing to see that spying was used in lieu of relying solely on military force.

Have you read Fatah's charter lately?

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

So... here we go again, hoping for more war over there, a good show, I don't understand. I can't stand any of those murderous jerks over there, but why are we talking about popcorn and stuff like this was some sort of sporting event?

Dehumanizing one's enemies makes it easier to enjoy watching them die. And you can still go to church on Sunday and feel good.

re: #31 MandyManners

You have a way with words.

My public speaking professor would cringe to hear me use an expression like that, but she'd probably applaud the fact that I know my audience.

re: #39 darthstar

Except when you listen to them speak, they mention Jews, not Israelis in their hateful rhetoric.

re: #41 Bagua

Because Walter, they are a terrorist group who sends suicide bombers and rockets into Israel and persecutes their own people. If they are fighting among themselves, they will be less effective as terrorists. Considering the suffering and violence they cause, a little pleasure at their discomfort is quite understandable.

No it's not. A little pleasure if it would all stop would be appropriate. Sorry, personally, I would handle that whole situation over there in certain tactical ways that if I mentioned them here, I would probably be banned.

But, bottom line is, I get NO PLEASURE from what feel needs to happen over there, or what I perceive that they are going to do to each other.

It's tragic, and not something to enjoy.

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

Because any time your enemy is fighting amongst themselves instead of fighting you is a good thing?

re: #44 windsagio

that doesn't mean you should enjoy their fighting.

Who are you to tell me what I should do?

re: #39 darthstar

That's a brick wall you don't want to butt your head against.

re: #47 MandyManners

Have you read Fatah's charter lately?

I don't believe it mentions exterminating Jewish people from the planet, but no. I haven't read their charter. I actually have no interest in reading their charter. I would, however, like to see the Palestinians live peaceably with the Israelis...some day.

re: #42 MandyManners

If they're busy going after each other, they won't have a lot of time and energy to go after Israel.

It's possible, but then again, the Hamas thugs will try to rally around each other and exhort others to engage in terror attacks of all kinds. It's happened before, where Hamas and/or Fatah were busy whacking each other all while trying to unify Palestinians behind them by going after Israel - the common enemy.

With Israel as the common enemy, it is all too easy for the jihadis to set aside their paranoia to engage in attacks on Israel.

re: #53 MandyManners

I'm not telling you you CAN"T

but I'm saying that its probably not something a good person, let alone a Christian should be comfortable with doing :p

re: #45 cgn38navy

He is currently State side living in California.

re: #52 Bubblehead II

Because any time your enemy is fighting amongst themselves instead of fighting you is a good thing?

Tactically good, yes, a pleasure, something to suggest that we get popcorn and sit back and enjoy, big NO.

re: #54 windsagio

That's a brick wall you don't want to butt your head against.

I know...and I'm not going to get into an argument over it here today. I realize that the majority of people here are pretty excited about this topic, so I'll keep my distance.

re: #39 darthstar

Without meaning to offend (and I'm certainly not defending Hamas or Fatah here - I detest all violence), I do believe that is a bit of an overstatement. Fatah's beef is more with the Israeli government than Jews in general (Fatah doesn't recognize the Israeli government...that's not the same as wanting to 'eradicate the Jews and Israel from history' - got Godwin?). But I realize that many here equate the Israeli government with the Jewish faith, at least when it comes to discussing Israel's detractors (can't hate one without hating the other, or so the fallacy goes) so I'll defer to your unbiased opinion.

Still, it's refreshing to see that spying was used in lieu of relying solely on military force.

Fatah's main goal, as stated in Article 12 of the official Fatah constitution is the "complete liberation of Palestine, and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence." End of story, they can fuck right off.

re: #55 darthstar

I don't believe it mentions exterminating Jewish people from the planet, but no. I haven't read their charter. I actually have no interest in reading their charter. I would, however, like to see the Palestinians live peaceably with the Israelis...some day.

Oh, dear me.

There's ignorance and there's willful ignorance.

Wish I could by this guy a beer. Props for all the good work he's done!

re: #56 lawhawk

It's possible, but then again, the Hamas thugs will try to rally around each other and exhort others to engage in terror attacks of all kinds. It's happened before, where Hamas and/or Fatah were busy whacking each other all while trying to unify Palestinians behind them by going after Israel - the common enemy.

With Israel as the common enemy, it is all too easy for the jihadis to set aside their paranoia to engage in attacks on Israel.

That's why keeping them mistrustful and disorganized is a good thing.

re: #35 MandyManners

That has really nothing to do with what I just said. I'm not talking about Hamas believing conspiracy stories, but the general Palestinian population as well. In my experience, most Palestinians, lied to by their government, lied to by their media, lied to by all the other Arab states, tend to believe a lot of conspiracy stories.

When you have no touchstone of trust, or when your touchstones abuse that trust, how do you figure out what is real and what isn't? How do they figure out who to trust?

Crazy Uncle Ron goes crazy...
Ben Bernanke Snaps At Ron Paul Over Wild Accusations (VIDEO)

The Texas Republican and former presidential candidate named the Fed in a number of conspiratorial "cover-ups," accusing the central bank of facilitating cash for Saddam Hussein's weapons purchases in the 1980s. (Paul also implicated the Fed In Watergate.)

The Fed may also be covertly planning a bailout of Greece, he said. Paul has championed the movement to audit the Federal Reserve.

"These specific allegations you've made," Bernanke responded to laughs, "I think are absolutely bizarre."

The Fed has "no plans whatsoever to be involved in any foreign bailouts or anything of that sort.

Tea Party! Victory at CPAC!

re: #57 windsagio

I'm not telling you you CAN"T

but I'm saying that its probably not something a good person, let alone a Christian should be comfortable with doing :p

So, I should want them to be at peace with each other and Fatah when we all know what happens next?

re: #59 Walter L. Newton

Tactically good, yes, a pleasure, something to suggest that we get popcorn and sit back and enjoy, big NO.

The thought that the Hamas terrorist group has internal divisions and can't trust each other is indeed something I find pleasant to contemplate. I'd love to hear about Al Qaeda terrorists suspecting each other and losing their sense of safety. That Israel was able to infiltrate the terrorists and gain intelligence that prevented suicide bombings? That is something I'm overjoyed to hear.

Pass the popcorn please. This is a good thing.

re: #33 EmmmieG

It would be fowl not to remember our rooster with fondness.

No jokes about dinner, now!

re: #65 Obdicut

That has really nothing to do with what I just said. I'm not talking about Hamas believing conspiracy stories, but the general Palestinian population as well. In my experience, most Palestinians, lied to by their government, lied to by their media, lied to by all the other Arab states, tend to believe a lot of conspiracy stories.

When you have no touchstone of trust, or when your touchstones abuse that trust, how do you figure out what is real and what isn't? How do they figure out who to trust?

Maybe they'll figure out not to vote for terrorists the next time Gaza has an election.

re: #65 Obdicut

That has really nothing to do with what I just said. I'm not talking about Hamas believing conspiracy stories, but the general Palestinian population as well. In my experience, most Palestinians, lied to by their government, lied to by their media, lied to by all the other Arab states, tend to believe a lot of conspiracy stories.

When you have no touchstone of trust, or when your touchstones abuse that trust, how do you figure out what is real and what isn't? How do they figure out who to trust?

Trust no one. Keep your laser handy. Obey the Computer.

/

re: #59 Walter L. Newton

Tactically good, yes, a pleasure, something to suggest that we get popcorn and sit back and enjoy, big NO.

From the standpoint of wanting to watch them all kill each other, I would agree with you. From the standpoint of visualizing the paranoia, backstabbing (not literally), unhinged whining and complaining, and other assorted nuttery that comes along with being unable to trust one's own shadow, absolutely pass the popcorn.

re: #39 darthstar

That certainly isn't a far fetched statement. With Abbas (an avowed Holocaust denier) in charge? The Fatah beef is with who they refer to as Zionists - a not so subtle reference to Jews. Since Israel is a Jewish state, and founded on Zionist principles, the Fatah beef is an existential one. The Fatah charter (as incorporated by reference in the current version) specifically calls for "Complete liberation of Palestine, and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence" So, not only are we talking about Israel, but Jews throughout the world. There's no other way to spin eradication than to consider it a call to genocide of Israel and its inhabitants - its Jewish inhabitants.

Fatah considers itself central to "Liberating Palestine and protecting its holy places is an Arab, religious and human obligation. " Of course that ignores that the holy places in Palestine are Jewish in origin, including the Temple Mount, Western Wall, Rachel's Tomb, Tomb of the Patriarchs, etc., but Fatah wipes out all references to the Jewish presence in the Holy Land in one fell swoop.

re: #55 darthstar

I don't believe it mentions exterminating Jewish people from the planet, but no. I haven't read their charter. I actually have no interest in reading their charter. I would, however, like to see the Palestinians live peaceably with the Israelis...some day.

If you have no interest in educating yourself - then you are regulated to parroting lines from those you identify with.

re: #67 MandyManners

just not sure we should take glee at the prospect of people fighting and killing each other.

re: #55 darthstar

I don't believe it mentions exterminating Jewish people from the planet, but no. I haven't read their charter. I actually have no interest in reading their charter. I would, however, like to see the Palestinians live peaceably with the Israelis...some day.

Then don't judge those who have read their charter and listened to their speeches and found mountains of antiSemetic hatred there. Seriously, do the research and you will find that they do indeed hate Jews.

re: #70 MandyManners

Okay. Again, not really what I'm talking about. Never mind.

re: #69 reine.de.tout

No jokes about dinner, now!

I'm not too chicken to make a few jokes. I'll just wing it.

re: #78 EmmmieG

Biscuit while you're ahead...

;)

re: #66 Killgore Trout

Crazy Uncle Ron goes crazy...
Ben Bernanke Snaps At Ron Paul Over Wild Accusations (VIDEO)

[Video]Tea Party! Victory at CPAC!

Banrey Frank is hilarious at the end of that clip. People are openly laughing.
LOL!

re: #73 lawhawk

Beat me to it.

re: #50 Bagua

Except when you listen to them speak, they mention Jews, not Israelis in their hateful rhetoric.

I thought they wanted "Death to all JUICE."

re: #68 Bagua

re: #72 thedopefishlives

I don't agree. Enjoy.

re: #44 windsagio

that doesn't mean you should enjoy their fighting.

Why not? Evil bastards at each other's throats. What's not to enjoy?

re: #75 windsagio

just not sure we should take glee at the prospect of people fighting and killing each other.

As long as murderers are killing other murderers, they're leaving innocents alone.

re: #79 oaktree

Biscuit while you're ahead...

;)

Now I'm feeling awfully down.

re: #84 Cato the Elder

Why not? Evil bastards at each other's throats. What's not to enjoy?

Dagnabit, Cato.

re: #84 Cato the Elder

re: #85 MandyManners

heh okay I give, this isn't something we're gonna see eye to eye on :p

re: #86 EmmmieG

You get that from a duck, not a chicken!

Make sure you don't end up in the sauce.

re: #61 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Fatah's main goal, as stated in Article 12 of the official Fatah constitution is the "complete liberation of Palestine, and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence." End of story, they can fuck right off.

The so called palestinian "charters" are based on self proclaimed goals of genocide and crimes against humanity. To my knowledge they are the only nationalistic *founding* documents that are based on such crimes.
Yet, to date, no international organization has called them on that.

re: #71 oaktree

Trust no one. Keep your laser handy. Obey the Computer.

/

Been a while since I played Paranoia.

re: #72 thedopefishlives

From the standpoint of wanting to watch them all kill each other, I would agree with you. From the standpoint of visualizing the paranoia, backstabbing (not literally), unhinged whining and complaining, and other assorted nuttery that comes along with being unable to trust one's own shadow, absolutely pass the popcorn.

Absolutely, no one is happy to see any violence.

re: #75 windsagio

just not sure we should take glee at the prospect of people fighting and killing each other.

Who said anything about fighting and killing? We are laughing at their not knowing which terrorist to trust and which terrorist is an informer. It is sweet of you to care, but I think those evil men chose violence and murder as a way of life. They deserve a bit of criticism.

re: #84 Cato the Elder

Why not? Evil bastards at each other's throats. What's not to enjoy?

Put it on Pay Per View and eliminate the National Debt in a weekend!

re: #84 Cato the Elder

Why not? Evil bastards at each other's throats. What's not to enjoy?

Actually, the fact that there are children right in there who have no chance of growing up to have a decent life, and it's not because of outsiders, it's because their own culture won't allow it. They could get hurt. They are being hurt, by the toxic swamp they are growing up in, right now.

But we've all discussed this, at length, before.

Paranoimia...

re: #80 Killgore Trout

Banrey Frank is hilarious at the end of that clip. People are openly laughing.
LOL!

Wow. Ron Paul's letting his kook flag fly.

re: #91 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

We referred to that game as "DM's Revenge". First game I came across that was almost geared for TPK (Total Party Kills). And they were usually self-inflicted as a backstab attempt turned into one of those thriller movie Mexican Stand-offs which ends up with a room littered with corpses. Send in the clones...

re: #9 EmmmieG

It's MICE

Money, Ideology, Compromise/Coercion, Ego.

re: #98 negativ

It's MICE

Money, Ideology, Compromise/Coercion, Ego.

Thank you! I remember it was MICE, but couldn't remember the C.

re: #99 EmmmieG

Thank you! I remember it was MICE, but couldn't remember the C.

Cheese, silly. What else would attract MICE !?!?!

//

re: #55 darthstar

Hamas Charter, part 1

Hamas Charter, part 2

Each part is 4 internet pages, so it isn't really all that cumbersome.

re: #55 darthstar

I don't believe it mentions exterminating Jewish people from the planet, but no. I haven't read their charter. I actually have no interest in reading their charter. I would, however, like to see the Palestinians live peaceably with the Israelis...some day.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

re: #96 Charles

Wow. Ron Paul's letting his kook flag fly.

Maybe the victory at CPAC is making him more confident.

re: #92 Bagua

Who said anything about fighting and killing? We are laughing at their not knowing which terrorist to trust and which terrorist is an informer. It is sweet of you to care, but I think those evil men chose violence and murder as a way of life. They deserve a bit of criticism.

You... "If they are fighting among themselves, they will be less effective as terrorists. Considering the suffering and violence they cause, a little pleasure at their discomfort is quite understandable."

You make an analogy in your second sentence. "Suffering and violence" and then equate that with their "discomfort."

Sound like you are wishing that they suffer somehow, and you are not talking about mental anguish that's for sure.

Actually, there is an actual scientific theory on why we can kick back and not take people killing themselves seriously. Read up on Dunbar's Number or the more layman friendly article "What is the Monkeysphere?"

"What the Hell is the Monkeysphere?"

First, picture a monkey. A monkey dressed like a little pirate, if that helps you. We'll call him Slappy.

Imagine you have Slappy as a pet. Imagine a personality for him. Maybe you and he have little pirate monkey adventures and maybe even join up to fight crime. Think how sad you'd be if Slappy died.

Now, imagine you get four more monkeys. We'll call them Tito, Bubbles, Marcel and ShitTosser. Imagine personalities for each of them now. Maybe one is aggressive, one is affectionate, one is quiet, the other just throws shit all the time. But they're all your personal monkey friends.

Now imagine a hundred monkeys.

Not so easy now, is it? So how many monkeys would you have to own before you couldn't remember their names? At what point, in your mind, do your beloved pets become just a faceless sea of monkey? Even though each one is every bit the monkey Slappy was, there's a certain point where you will no longer really care if one of them dies.

So how many monkeys would it take before you stopped caring?

That's not a rhetorical question. We actually know the number.

re: #101 reine.de.tout

However, as we all know from timecube guy, an internet page can be infinite.

[Link: 74.125.155.132...]

re: #92 Bagua

Who said anything about fighting and killing? We are laughing at their not knowing which terrorist to trust and which terrorist is an informer. It is sweet of you to care, but I think those evil men chose violence and murder as a way of life. They deserve a bit of criticism.

Ummm I think I alluded to killings happening here

It will happen. There is no doubt of that in my mind. Wether or not we should take joy in such killings seems to be the question.

re: #97 oaktree

We referred to that game as "DM's Revenge". First game I came across that was almost geared for TPK (Total Party Kills). And they were usually self-inflicted as a backstab attempt turned into one of those thriller movie Mexican Stand-offs which ends up with a room littered with corpses. Send in the clones...

I remember on character generation, I rolled secret police as a background and the DM said hell no, no secret police backgrounds. Then he took us all aside one by one and gave us a brief and the first thing he says to me is "You lucky bastard, you're in the secret police!"

re: #39 darthstar

Fatah's beef is more with the Israeli government existence of the State of Israel than Jews in general (Fatah doesn't recognize the Israeli government right of Israel to exist...[puling non-sequitur omitted here].

FTFY.

What do you wear, boxers or briefs? No matter - the "I'm pig-ignorant about this subject" tag is sticking out for all to see.

One of the chief things agreed to under the eagle eye of Peanut Carter at Camp David was that the PLO (whose successor is Fatah) would remove its call for the end of the State of Israel from its charter and officially recognize Israel. This, along with many other undertakings agreed to by our President's fellow Nobel winner Arafat, was never done. Has not been done to this day. But the lying about it has been so effective that people like you believe Fatah recognizes Israel while Hamas does not. Neither does. The difference is a matter of rhetoric. Congratulations, you've been duped.

But I realize that many here equate the Israeli government with the Jewish faith, at least when it comes to discussing Israel's detractors (can't hate one without hating the other, or so the fallacy goes) so I'll defer to your unbiased opinion.

That's for the tacit admission that you hate at least one.

Now go read some history.

re: #104 Walter L. Newton

You... "If they are fighting among themselves, they will be less effective as terrorists. Considering the suffering and violence they cause, a little pleasure at their discomfort is quite understandable."

You make an analogy in your second sentence. "Suffering and violence" and then equate that with their "discomfort."

Sound like you are wishing that they suffer somehow, and you are not talking about mental anguish that's for sure.

Agreed, I draw the line there. When Hamas took over the strip and started murdering their opponents, I didn't find that entertaining, it was despicable to watch.

But quite right, I am hoping that the terrorist group Hamas suffers. I hope they either kill each other, are killed, or are put in prison where they can no longer murder innocents.

re: #106 Obdicut

However, as we all know from timecube guy, an internet page can be infinite.

[Link: 74.125.155.132...]

eh, bad description then?
It's 8 short pages.

Wow. Getting dinged for providing facts.

re: #109 Cato the Elder

ΠΙΜΦ: That's Thanks for the tacit admission that you hate at least one.

“Fatah does not recognize Israel's right to exist, nor have we ever asked others to do so,” said senior Fatah member Rafik Natsheh, a close associate of Palestinian Authority (PA) Chairman Mahmoud Abbas.
[Link: www.israelnationalnews.com...]

re: #114 jaunte

THAT BEARS REPEATING:

“Fatah does not recognize Israel's right to exist, nor have we ever asked others to do so,” said senior Fatah member Rafik Natsheh, a close associate of Palestinian Authority (PA) Chairman Mahmoud Abbas.
[Link: www.israelnationalnews.com...]

re: #74 Ericus58

If you have no interest in educating yourself - then you are regulated to parroting lines from those you identify with.

I should have been more specific. I have no interest in reading the Fatah charter right now. It's quoted above how they feel about Israeli (or Zionist, if you prefer) occupation. I find their stance to be extreme. I also find Israel's stance to be extreme. I have little to no hope that either side will ever see eye to eye with the other, but that's not the same as no hope.

re: #115 Cato the Elder

A little more:

"All these reports about recognizing Israel are false," Natsheh, who is closely associated with PA President Mahmoud Abbas, said. "It's all media nonsense. We don't ask other factions to recognize Israel because we in Fatah have never recognized Israel."

Asked about calls for dropping the reference to armed struggle from Fatah's charter, Natsheh said: "Let all the collaborators [with Israel] and those who are deluding themselves hear that this will never happen. We'll meet at the conference [in Bethlehem]."

Natsheh stressed that neither Fatah nor the Palestinians would ever relinquish the armed struggle against Israel "no matter how long the occupation continues."[Link: voiceofthecopts.org...]

Marine LePen jumps on the anti-Halal restaurant bandwagon

[Link: www.timesonline.co.uk...]

Comments at youtube on the Ron Paul video...

Adelaide1200 (21 seconds ago)
Jew Burnbankie want to tell the goy he should 'know his place'

...

'nanke always looks like he is going to cry when paul talks.

...

Brilliant Dr. Paul!
Watch Bernanke squirm.

re: #116 darthstar

So Israel wanting to live and make peace with its neighbors is extreme? What to you is "moderate"?

re: #101 reine.de.tout

Hamas Charter, part 1

Hamas Charter, part 2

Each part is 4 internet pages, so it isn't really all that cumbersome.

Since you asked nicely, I'll peruse.

re: #116 darthstar

Zionist Occupation?

re: #120 thedopefishlives

it depends on the Israel, because of the way their political system works out the people that really want war end up in power way more than they should, or just have more influence in general.

re: #111 reine.de.tout

I just never miss an opportunity to reference Timecube guy, no matter how big a stretch it is.

re: #123 windsagio

it depends on the Israel, because of the way their political system works out the people that really want war end up in power way more than they should, or just have more influence in general.

You really know nothing about Israel do you?

re: #116 darthstar

I find their stance to be extreme. I also find Israel's stance to be extreme.

"We will kill you" and "No, you won't" are indeed extreme positions, but they have a qualitative difference.

re: #123 windsagio

The people wanting war end up in power because it's hard not to want war when your neighbors are ruled by terrorists.

re: #116 darthstar

I have no interest in reading the Fatah charter right now.

Can't say I blame you. If you did, you might feel obliged to come back and grovel a bit.

Tell you what: You read it, and then take your pick - crow or humble pie. You can even haz icecreem.

re: #122 Bagua

Zionist Occupation?

There you have it.

re: #122 Bagua

Zionist Occupation?

Darth posted recently that prior to LGF there was a stint at Kos...I imagine that 'occupation' bit was learned over there. Hopefully by remaining here for a while, that particular bit will go away.
I learned more here about the whole situation in a few months than I had in all my history classes combined.

For the record I would jump in to convince Darthstar otherwise as well, but I know that there are many others who are much more versant in this thread than I on the subject. Suffice to say that i still consider Fatah to be a terrorist organization, regardless of the realpolitik of the moment.

re: #125 Bagua

Well in fairness you don't know what I'm referring to, because it was kinda vague.

Specifically, the 'peace' side of the equation in Israel can form a coalition when the far right gets out of hand, but can't actually govern because they don't agree about anything else.

After a while of gridlock, you get some good 'throw the bums' out mentality and the far right gets in power because they'd at least get things done.

They then make the situation worse, and the whole cycle starts over again.

... oversimplified of course, but thats basicly what happens.

re: #121 darthstar

Since you asked nicely, I'll peruse.

I hope you know that "peruse" means "read carefully".

A lot of people think it means "skim".

No skimming permitted in this case.

re: #128 Cato the Elder

Can't say I blame you. If you did, you might feel obliged to come back and grovel a bit.

Tell you what: You read it, and then take your pick - crow or humble pie. You can even haz icecreem.

Daddy ,, can we stop at Wally World on the way too!?!?!

re: #122 Bagua

Zionist Occupation?

Not my choice of words. "It's quoted above how they feel about Israeli (or Zionist, if you prefer) occupation." I use the term Israeli to describe the actions of the government of Israel. I never use 'Zionist' or 'Jewish'. It makes no more sense to me to use religious terms to describe their government as it would to call the US government a "Christian Government".

re: #122 Bagua

I think he's referring to the way Fatah would term it.

re: #119 Killgore Trout

And from 'conservativeoriginalist'

No, because Lincoln essentially set in motion the custom of ignoring the 9th and 10th Amendments, and usurped the power of the state governments into the federal government.

Looks like the Lincoln-hate is now a plank.

re: #124 Obdicut

I just never miss an opportunity to reference Timecube guy, no matter how big a stretch it is.

I guess I'm going to have to find out who Timecube guy is.
ack.
This old brain isn't going to be able to take in too much more new stuff.
IT'S MY BIRTHDAY TODAY!
And so I just got a year older than I was.
ew.

Anyone who knows anything about Israel or has any sense whatsoever knows that Israel wants peace, not war. They are struggling for survival against horrendous odds and massive hatred.

re: #133 Cato the Elder

I hope you know that "peruse" means "read carefully".

A lot of people think it means "skim".

No skimming permitted in this case.

I prefer the 2 percent

)btw ,, where do they get skimmed cows from ,, or 1 or 2 percent ones for that matter ,,, and why don't we have 3 or 4 percent milk!?!?!)

I want a new phone and I'm trying to decide if I want a BB Storm2 or the droid. I want something that is going to work with my slingbox and I want flash. Neither phone does flash right now and supposedly the Storm2 works with my slingbox. Anyone have either phone?

re: #125 Bagua

You really know nothing about Israel do you?

No... but he plays someone who is an expert on Israel on the internet.

re: #138 reine.de.tout

Happy birthday, reine!

re: #139 Bagua

I think thats a bit of an oversimplification :p

There are people in Israel that want a settled peace, and there are people in Israel that want to annihilate or chase out the Palestinians entirely.

I'm not making any value judgements, but it's simply true.

To go further, there are people in Israel who would kill their prime minister because he was making motions towards peace.

re: #138 reine.de.tout

The more birthdays you have, the longer you live. Happy Revolution Around the Sun Day!

re: #138 reine.de.tout

I guess I'm going to have to find out who Timecube guy is.
ack.
This old brain isn't going to be able to take in too much more new stuff.
IT'S MY BIRTHDAY TODAY!
And so I just got a year older than I was.
ew.

Oh, gag me with a spoon!
i just clicked Obdi's "timecube guy" link.
What a crock of craziness!

re: #123 windsagio

it depends on the Israel, because of the way their political system works out the people that really want war end up in power way more than they should, or just have more influence in general.

Excuse me? How can you come to that conclusion when every Israeli government has been a coalition between religious and secular, left and right? That many of Israel's leaders have been generals or high ranking military leaders has to do with the fact that Israelis have mandatory military service, and that Israelis fought more than a few wars of national defense. To defend themselves from enemies that sought to throw 'em into the sea.

Hearing the Arab propaganda for so long - coupled with an intimate knowledge and regular stream of genocidal rhetoric from Israel's neighbors - the Palestinians along with the Syrians, Iranians and many others through the years, Israel can't be complacent and wish that it was a peaceful corner of the world. It must continue to pursue a strong national defense and protect itself from constant attacks.

Last year, which was considered peaceful still had hundreds of terror attacks - rockets, mortars, and hundreds more of attempted attacks.

re: #141 RogueOne

I want a new phone and I'm trying to decide if I want a BB Storm2 or the droid. I want something that is going to work with my slingbox and I want flash. Neither phone does flash right now and supposedly the Storm2 works with my slingbox. Anyone have either phone?

I got one of these,,, does that help !?!?!

Image: Motorolabagbig.jpg

re: #145 Cato the Elder

The more birthdays you have, the longer you live. Happy Revolution Around the Sun Day!

I am quite content and happy.
Merci!

re: #145 Cato the Elder

The more birthdays you have, the longer you live. Happy Revolution Around the Sun Day!

I plan on living forever ,,,

So far ,, so good!

re: #132 windsagio

Well in fairness you don't know what I'm referring to, because it was kinda vague.

Specifically, the 'peace' side of the equation in Israel can form a coalition when the far right gets out of hand, but can't actually govern because they don't agree about anything else.

After a while of gridlock, you get some good 'throw the bums' out mentality and the far right gets in power because they'd at least get things done.

They then make the situation worse, and the whole cycle starts over again.

... oversimplified of course, but thats basicly what happens.

Oversimplified to the point of being meaningless. It doesn't sound like you are very familiar with Israeli politics.

re: #123 windsagio

it depends on the Israel, because of the way their political system works out the people that really want war end up in power way more than they should, or just have more influence in general.

You are ignoring the past events in that region and the present reality.

When someone takes a position that it's only up to Israel to have peace in the region, as you state, it takes away the responsibility of Israels neighbors to act in a civilized way - and their deserving a consideration of their position.

Quite a bit of ignorance exposed this morning, if not out-right hatred.

re: #138 reine.de.tout

I guess I'm going to have to find out who Timecube guy is.
ack.
This old brain isn't going to be able to take in too much more new stuff.
IT'S MY BIRTHDAY TODAY!
And so I just got a year older than I was.
ew.

Happy Birthday Reine! Make it a great indulgence day.

re: #146 reine.de.tout

He's the gold standard for internet madness.

re: #149 reine.de.tout

I am quite content and happy.
Merci!

Me too. My replacement iPhone arrived yesterday (three days late). I now have room for movies. So I bought The Godfather Parts I & II and watched them last night. With headphones. In bed.

re: #151 Bagua

Well explain how I'm wrong. I admit I'm not an expert... but where does my analysis go wrong?

re: #126 jaunte

"We will kill you" and "No, you won't" are indeed extreme positions, but they have a qualitative difference.

Okay...it appears I've volunteered to be the thread punching bag (without either defending the terrorists or criticizing the victims). I never do well in "Yer wid' us or agin' us" discussions, so I'll bow out at this point.

Peace.

buyin that book

re: #158 darthstar

Its a brutal row to hoe, engaging on Israel policy >>

re: #141 RogueOne

I want a new phone and I'm trying to decide if I want a BB Storm2 or the droid. I want something that is going to work with my slingbox and I want flash. Neither phone does flash right now and supposedly the Storm2 works with my slingbox. Anyone have either phone?

I've got the Googly phone (HTC Droid version 1). I love it. I don't love T-Mobile though. Still, I recommend the Droid as it's a very nice toy.

re: #156 Cato the Elder

Me too. My replacement iPhone arrived yesterday (three days late). I now have room for movies. So I bought The Godfather Parts I & II and watched them last night. With headphones. In bed.

Love the iPhone.
I really really do.

re: #162 reine.de.tout

I hate the AT&T data plan tho'. If you have to hack it to have affordable service, why bother?

re: #138 reine.de.tout

I guess I'm going to have to find out who Timecube guy is.
ack.
This old brain isn't going to be able to take in too much more new stuff.
IT'S MY BIRTHDAY TODAY!
And so I just got a year older than I was.
ew.

Happy Birthday Reine! What does the Queen of All get for her birthday?

re: #159 SpaceJesus

buyin that book

I'd love to have an autographed copy.

re: #153 MandyManners

Quite a bit of ignorance exposed this morning, if not out-right hatred.

On that we agree 100%
;)

re: #164 wrenchwench

Happy Birthday Reine! What does the Queen of All get for her birthday?

Daughter saw me drooling over a necklace. She and the Roi went to that jewelry store last week. So I'm hoping . . .

English Defence League at it again :

There is also a cross of St George flag, bearing the Sikh Khanda symbol, and the Loyalist legend: “No Surrender”, and a Jamaican flag. One of the posters says “Patriotism is not racism” (correct). It then goes on to claim that “Denying your race is treason” (WTF?!).

[Link: www.hurryupharry.org...]

re: #158 darthstar

It's not a matter of with us or against us; it's that you admitted that you were unfamiliar with key documents and history relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict without which faulty conclusions can emerge. But don't feel bad - the diplomats have been doing the same thing for decades and still think that they can get a peace deal all while ignoring the fact that Fatah and Hamas want nothing less than Israel's destruction and genocide of Israel's Jewish population.

For your further reading, I'd suggest the Mideast Web, which is a great resource and has the Fatah and Hamas charters, other key historical documents, etc. Michael Oren's books are other recommended reading, along with William Quandt's Peace Process, which is essential reading to examining the history of the Arab Israeli conflict.

re: #149 reine.de.tout

Happiest of Birthdays to you, Reine

re: #158 darthstar

Okay...it appears I've volunteered to be the thread punching bag (without either defending the terrorists or criticizing the victims). I never do well in "Yer wid' us or agin' us" discussions, so I'll bow out at this point.

Peace.

It may feel that way too you, and maybe it is that way, but actually - you would do well to become a bit more informed.
See;
re: #169 lawhawk

It's not a matter of with us or against us; it's that you admitted that you were unfamiliar with key documents and history relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict without which faulty conclusions can emerge. But don't feel bad - the diplomats have been doing the same thing for decades and still think that they can get a peace deal all while ignoring the fact that Fatah and Hamas want nothing less than Israel's destruction and genocide of Israel's Jewish population.

For your further reading, I'd suggest the Mideast Web, which is a great resource and has the Fatah and Hamas charters, other key historical documents, etc. Michael Oren's books are other recommended reading, along with William Quandt's Peace Process, which is essential reading to examining the history of the Arab Israeli conflict.

re: #161 darthstar

My brother just picked up the droid and it is a nice phone and "Flash support coming soon!". Of course, I've heard the same thing about bb devices for 3 years now.

I love my BB so I'm a little torn about switching to a different platform but the droid is sweet enough that I'm seriously considering a move.

re: #133 Cato the Elder

I hope you know that "peruse" means "read carefully".

A lot of people think it means "skim".

No skimming permitted in this case.

Gee, thanks, Cato...I never would have known that.
/

re: #158 darthstar

Okay...it appears I've volunteered to be the thread punching bag (without either defending the terrorists or criticizing the victims). I never do well in "Yer wid' us or agin' us" discussions, so I'll bow out at this point.

Peace.

To quote King Philip II of France in "The Lion In Winter": Piss on your peace.

You have no interest in learning from the collective wisdom of this blog on the matter of Israel.

For those who do, might I recommend a book? "The Case for Israel", by Alan Dershowitz.

Or would that be special pleading?

re: #157 windsagio

Well explain how I'm wrong. I admit I'm not an expert... but where does my analysis go wrong?

Everywhere. What "peace side of the equation"? What party, what's their name? When did they break down in squabbling? Who is this 'far right' of which you speak? Who is advocating "annihilating" the palestinians?

None of it sounds informed or germane. It reads like the comic book version of events, vague and absent content or details. Just inference and innuendo. Many people here are very well informed on the subject by way of contrast. Why not bone up on the subject before become a primary protagonist.

re: #171 reine.de.tout

It's your birthday? Happy Birthday!! I like birthdays.

re: #163 windsagio

I hate the AT&T data plan tho'. If you have to hack it to have affordable service, why bother?

The data plan is $30 a month. What phone plan you choose is up to you.

re: #176 cliffster

It's your birthday? Happy Birthday!! I like birthdays.

You can have some of mine!

re: #174 Cato the Elder

Maybe he thought we could have substantive discussion on the subject rather than insults and yelling at anyone who comes in with a different position?

I know its an emotional issue, but c'mon!

re: #167 reine.de.tout

Daughter saw me drooling over a necklace. She and the Roi went to that jewelry store last week. So I'm hoping . . .

My birthday is saturday and I'm going with my spouse and sis-n-law bra shopping at Victoria's Secret. It could be fun but I've already counted at least 30 ways I could get in serious trouble so I'd rather just have a new phone.

re: #158 darthstar

Okay...it appears I've volunteered to be the thread punching bag (without either defending the terrorists or criticizing the victims). I never do well in "Yer wid' us or agin' us" discussions, so I'll bow out at this point.

Peace.

To say you are the punching bag is to imply you are a victim. It was your statements that brought attention to yourself and the position you seem to have. Please feel free to continue discussing your views, and be open to opposing views and facts.

re: #163 windsagio

I hate the AT&T data plan tho'. If you have to hack it to have affordable service, why bother?

Because it's a great phone - camera - movie camera - internet surfing - text messaging - e-mail delivery - game playing - news & weather reports - calendar - watch - compass - iPod - photo album - calculator - movie ticket buying - map questing - voice memo - rosary - device.

And more.

re: #172 RogueOne

I will say the T-Mobile plan is about thirty bucks a month less than AT&T's iPhone plan. I pay 55 bucks a month for unlimited data and 300 minutes (I don't talk for five hours a month on the phone, so it's plenty...hell, I could get by with 90 minutes a month probably).

re: #156 Cato the Elder

Me too. My replacement iPhone arrived yesterday (three days late). I now have room for movies. So I bought The Godfather Parts I & II and watched them last night. With headphones. In bed.

You need to jailbreak that bitch right away. Don't let the Man tell you what to put on your phone.

re: #177 Cato the Elder

The data plan is $30 a month. What phone plan you choose is up to you.

And if you're a gov't employee (or retiree), you can get a plan discount.

re: #131 Thanos

For the record I would jump in to convince Darthstar otherwise as well, but I know that there are many others who are much more versant in this thread than I on the subject. Suffice to say that i still consider Fatah to be a terrorist organization, regardless of the realpolitik of the moment.

I was going to add, "So does the US government", but that's not true. I guess they couldn't be a negotiating partner if they were. Is that the reason they were taken off the list? Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade is still on the list. Aren't they part of Fatah?

re: #144 windsagio

I think thats a bit of an oversimplification :p

There are people in Israel that want a settled peace, and there are people in Israel that want to annihilate or chase out the Palestinians entirely.

I'm not making any value judgements, but it's simply true.

To go further, there are people in Israel who would kill their prime minister because he was making motions towards peace.

The overriding goal among Israelis is that they want peace. They tried a negotiated peace, and they got Intifada and war. They tried unilateral withdrawal from Gaza, and got a rocket war.

The Israelis tried to build a security fence to prevent suicide bombers - they got attacked by other countries for being too harsh on Palestinians, but the fence was successful until the Palestinians switched to firing rockets and mortars against Israel - with the same deadly effects on Israelis. Israel goes after the terrorists firing the rockets, and gets labeled the aggressor.

Israel faces a no-win situation and an Israeli public is exasperated because they've pretty much run out of options - when their partner in peace is no such thing. It's a mirage to believe that Fatah or the PA is a partner in peace, so Israel does what it can to muddle along.

Israelis are much less likely to go along with a peace deal precisely because of what they've seen since Oslo back in 1993 - 17 years ago. A low level war against Israel that never ended. Concessions by Israel are met with more demands. Palestinian obligations are ignored.

When the Palestinians come back with a leadership that repudiates the various charters calling for Israel's destruction - puts that in writing and in Arabic for all the world to see, then we might get somewhere, but as Yousef indicates above- Hamas would never agree to that. It's not in their ideology, theology, or polity to do otherwise.

re: #179 windsagio

Maybe he thought we could have substantive discussion on the subject rather than insults and yelling at anyone who comes in with a different position?

I know its an emotional issue, but c'mon!

It's not an emotional issue, it's subject to rational analysis like anything else.

But coming in "with a different position" based on documented PLO/Fatah lies is not conducive to a substantive discussion. Some people need schooling before they can discuss an issue, much as in the AGW question.

Darthstar is in denial.

This is so many kinds of awesome I don't know where to start. I know what I'll be reading next week!

re: #158 darthstar

Okay...it appears I've volunteered to be the thread punching bag (without either defending the terrorists or criticizing the victims). I never do well in "Yer wid' us or agin' us" discussions, so I'll bow out at this point.

Peace.

You're OK darthstar, you stated your views and even agreed to read up on the subject. The more we try to understand each other's point of view the closer we come to truth.

re: #187 lawhawk

what about Rabin then?

re: #164 wrenchwench

Happy Birthday Reine! What does the Queen of All get for her birthday?

'course what I really want is a Vespa, but the Roi is convinced I'd kill myself . . .

re: #188 Cato the Elder

I'm asking for it with this one, but its worth mentioning.

Isn't it funny that theres all this talk about the lies on one side, but not on the other?

Is it really so hard to admit that both sides have good and bad people in them, and various internal forces effecting how they act?

re: #182 reine.de.tout

Because it's a great phone - camera - movie camera - internet surfing - text messaging - e-mail delivery - game playing - news & weather reports - calendar - watch - compass - iPod - photo album - calculator - movie ticket buying - map questing - voice memo - rosary - device.

And more.

In my case the "more" includes several full-sized dictionaries in various languages, a Bible program with all the original languages except Hebrew (my Hebrew sucks too bad for me to shell out the money), and the Catholic breviary and office of hours for every day of the year until the phone dies or I croak.

And the NYT crossword puzzle delivered every day starting at midnight.

re: #188 Cato the Elder

Okay, Cato...maybe this will clear everything up for you.

re: #179 windsagio

Maybe he thought we could have substantive discussion on the subject rather than insults and yelling at anyone who comes in with a different position?

I know its an emotional issue, but c'mon!

He's been offered tools to gain knowledge but he has spurned them.

re: #191 windsagio

What about Rabin? He was assassinated, but Israel's commitment to the peace process didn't stop there - his murderer was sentenced to life in prison, those purporting an extremist ideology are banned from political parties (Kahane Chai for instance), and Israel continues to fulfill its obligations under Oslo, including the Gaza-Jericho Accord, Wye River Accord, and other security agreements that basically divided up the West Bank and gave the Palestinians civil administrative control over nearly all of the West Bank. Israelis found in the wrong parts of the West Bank are arrested as trespassing into Palestinian areas - by Israelis.

Sharon unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005 in hopes that it would lead to a more peaceful situation - it had the opposite effect.

Cato,

Thought you might appreciate this:
[Link: www.boingboing.net...]

I've been reading the oldest joke book in existence, the Philogelos, a Byzantine book written in about 400 AD. It's full of knee slappers. The book is mostly quips from two guys, Hierocles and Philagrius, about whom little is known.

Like network television, Byzantine comedy is mostly based on the fortunes and foibles of a gallery of stock characters: the drunk, the miser, the braggart, the sex-starved woman, as well as a classic type known as the scholastikos, variously translated as "pedant," "absent-minded professor," or "egghead."

There's even video:
[Link: publishing.yudu.com...]

re: #193 windsagio

I'm asking for it with this one, but its worth mentioning.

Isn't it funny that theres all this talk about the lies on one side, but not on the other?

Is it really so hard to admit that both sides have good and bad people in them, and various internal forces effecting how they act?

No... we can talk all about that until we are blue in the face, it still doesn't change the fact that that Israel want peace and most of the other factions want then gone.

When the parameters are that simple, it's hard to ignore the basic issue.

Well, some can.

re: #195 darthstar

Don't forget this breakdown

Do they say if he voluntarily gave all this information up, or if he was compensated? Wouldn't surprise me if it cost a few dollars to get him to open up. To his credit it appears he came forward because of his own ethics, and not for the cash. But still, I would expect that he also got compensated.

re: #193 windsagio

I'm asking for it with this one, but its worth mentioning.

Isn't it funny that theres all this talk about the lies on one side, but not on the other?

Is it really so hard to admit that both sides have good and bad people in them, and various internal forces effecting how they act?

Egads, the old Moral Equivalence is being trotted out?

To what end?

re: #193 windsagio

I'm asking for it with this one, but its worth mentioning.

Isn't it funny that theres all this talk about the lies on one side, but not on the other?

Is it really so hard to admit that both sides have good and bad people in them, and various internal forces effecting how they act?

How very squishy of you.

Israel does not have a written policy of holding on to the West Bank in perpetuity. A third of its population is Arab. They have the vote. Gaza is free - if it wants to be.

There is no goddamn comparison, goddammit.

re: #197 lawhawk

The point I was trying to make was that there certainly are factions, and not insignificant ones that don't want peace at all, at least not under any currently accepted terms.

re: #202 MandyManners

Egads, the old Moral Equivalence is being trotted out?

To what end?

Well we certainly know where you stand when it comes to Islam.

re: #194 Cato the Elder

In my case the "more" includes several full-sized dictionaries in various languages, a Bible program with all the original languages except Hebrew (my Hebrew sucks too bad for me to shell out the money), and the Catholic breviary and office of hours for every day of the year until the phone dies or I croak.

And the NYT crossword puzzle delivered every day starting at midnight.

Crossword puzzle?
What do I look for?
Is it a subscription?

re: #201 drcordell

Do they say if he voluntarily gave all this information up, or if he was compensated? Wouldn't surprise me if it cost a few dollars to get him to open up. To his credit it appears he came forward because of his own ethics, and not for the cash. But still, I would expect that he also got compensated.

I would fucking hope so, and maybe a safe house and maybe a new identity in Barbados... that's good, isn't it?

re: #202 MandyManners

+ for moral equivalence >>

I'm not saying the Palestinians aren't worse.

I'm saying that people are massively oversimplifying what is actually a quite complex set of issues on multiple levels.

re: #203 Cato the Elder

How very squishy of you.

Israel does not have a written policy of holding on to the West Bank in perpetuity. A third of its population is Arab. They have the vote. Gaza is free - if it wants to be.

There is no goddamn comparison, goddammit.

Gaza is free to what if it wants to be? Free to be a part of Israel, with full citizenship rights for all Gazans? Free to become its own nation, Palestine?

re: #204 windsagio

The point I was trying to make was that there certainly are factions, and not insignificant ones that don't want peace at all, at least not under any currently accepted terms.

Name one?

re: #207 Walter L. Newton

I would fucking hope so, and maybe a safe house and maybe a new identity in Barbados... that's good, isn't it?

I would hope so as well, I'm honestly curious as to what the price tag for something like that would be.

re: #205 drcordell

Well we certainly know where you stand when it comes to Islam.

Charles made a thread posing downstairs that would apply to your behavior. You would be wise to read it.

re: #211 drcordell

I would hope so as well, I'm honestly curious as to what the price tag for something like that would be.

You have some leads?

re: #210 Walter L. Newton

Name one?

Avigdor Lieberman.

re: #212 Ericus58

Charles made a thread posing downstairs that would apply to your behavior. You would be wise to read it.

Calm down.

<
re: #207 Walter L. Newton

I would fucking hope so, and maybe a safe house and maybe a new identity in Barbados... that's good, isn't it?

Southern California actually! I'm sure this guy's got a house on the beach and a couple of blonde plastic california beach girls hanging around! now there's your paradise any frustrated young arab men lurking and reading this.

re: #213 Walter L. Newton

You have some leads?

Can't say I run into too many Hamas associated terrorists in lower Manhattan. Unfortunately that limits my ability to profit from informing on them. But it also increases the likelihood that I will not die from a car bomb. I'll take it.

re: #210 Walter L. Newton

National Union Party

re: #216 Spider Mensch

<
Southern California actually! I'm sure this guy's got a house on the beach and a couple of blonde plastic california beach girls hanging around! now there's your paradise any frustrated young arab men lurking and reading this.

I doubt there are 40 virgins though... it would surprise me if they could round up 10.

/

re: #214 drcordell

Avigdor Lieberman.

I know that, I know who he is and what he represents. I was asking the expert.

re: #206 reine.de.tout

Crossword puzzle?
What do I look for?
Is it a subscription?

OK - found the NYTimes crossword puzzle app.
free!
I also have the Catholic breviary, thanks to a heads-up from Cato.

re: #220 Walter L. Newton

I never said I was an expert Walter, all along I've been explaining my understanding of the situation. I've still seen nobody substantively dispute what I said :p

re: #214 drcordell

Avigdor Lieberman.

re: #218 windsagio

National Union Party

Who in total hold 19 seats right now out of 120, not an overwhelming amount of influence, are they.

re: #205 drcordell

Well we certainly know where you stand when it comes to Islam.

Oh, my. Into reading minds now?

re: #219 drcordell

I doubt there are 40 virgins though... it would surprise me if they could round up 10.

/

:)) you know thse SoCal girls..lol..
" You a virgin? "
" Well part of me is, teehee, guess which part! teehee!"

re: #223 Walter L. Newton

Who in total hold 19 seats right now out of 120, not an overwhelming amount of influence, are they.

And never have been!

re: #222 windsagio

I never said I was an expert Walter, all along I've been explaining my understanding of the situation. I've still seen nobody substantively dispute what I said :p

You don't read much Lawhawk? Cato? Got a little of the "more importance" "more knowledge" syndrome that you were talking about yesterday.

And who makes the final decision as to what is "substantively." You always include words that in the final reel, it's how much weight you give to an answer, regardless of facts or truths.

re: #219 drcordell

I doubt there are 40 virgins though... it would surprise me if they could round up 10.

/

Why would Yousef care about that? He's a Christian.

Repost from an earlier thread for those who may have missed it : Bin Laden - Alive or Dead? (BBC Conspiracy Files)

A few of the main points : It's not unusual by any means for terrorists and criminals to evade capture for very long periods of time as Bin Laden has so far done, especially given the sparseness of the terrain he is likely living in, where any approaches can be seen hours in advance, and where he has the support not to say adulation of the locals. The reports of his kidney dialysis/ serious illness appear to have been false, the claims that it wasn't really him in the last videos that were broadcast are proven without doubt to be false, the audio in the other tapes has been confirmed by the CIA's top experts in the field to be genuine. Also, it is usual for al Quaeda to proclaim the death - ie 'martyrdom' of their personnel - even top personnel.

This is the first video in a playlist - if you click 'view all' on the right you can watch the whole programme in sequence without interruption - it's about an hour long.

re: #217 drcordell

Can't say I run into too many Hamas associated terrorists in lower Manhattan. Unfortunately that limits my ability to profit from informing on them. But it also increases the likelihood that I will not die from a car bomb. I'll take it.

That you know of!

I'm sure prior to 9/11 there were a handful of flight instructors that would have said "gee,, I've never run into an Al Q. operative,,,"

re: #222 windsagio

I never said I was an expert Walter, all along I've been explaining my understanding of the situation. I've still seen nobody substantively dispute what I said :p

Perhaps that's because the depth of your willful ignorance is too difficult to fathom.

*rolls eyes*

re: #206 reine.de.tout

Crossword puzzle?
What do I look for?
Is it a subscription?

[Link: www.magmic.com...]

You get a week's worth of puzzles with the free app. Then, "Subscription renewals are available as 30-day, 180-day, and 365-day packages." A year costs $16.99.

I use it every day.

Treat yourself for your birthday!

re: #224 MandyManners

Oh, my. Into reading minds now?

Maybe just taking a look at your avatar.

re: #209 drcordell

Gaza is free to what if it wants to be? Free to be a part of Israel, with full citizenship rights for all Gazans? Free to become its own nation, Palestine?

Free to kick out Hamas and make peace with Israel, for starters. Remember that little matter of a withdrawal a few years back?

re: #227 Walter L. Newton

I read them, but I didn't really get any specific refutations. I'll try again tho', just for you.

~~

OK done, nope nothing to refute my points, just alot of 'You don't understand!!!'

My phone must have heard I'm looking for its replacement. The trackball just stopped working.

re: #222 windsagio

I never said I was an expert Walter, all along I've been explaining my understanding of the situation. I've still seen nobody substantively dispute what I said :p

How can anyone substantively dispute insubstantial and vague moral equivalency with no real factual basis or assertions? You have this black and white simplistic view that there is a peace side and a war side within the Israeli Parliament, with your normal distaste of what you consider 'right wing'.

What is your position? It's ephemeral, ad hoc and uninformed. Yet you are passing judgement on the replies.

*rolls eyes*

Ok, I've gotta go get lunch, so I'm gonna just put this out here, and be back in an hour.

Its sad that just 1 thread after Charles bitched us all out over being too nasty and argumentative the tone in here is so angry and hostile.

If people were fighting back, this thread would be trashed in minutes. As it is, one side is showing some restraint and not slapping back.

Its worth thinking about.

re: #238 Bagua

What is your position? It's ephemeral, ad hoc and uninformed. Yet you are passing judgement on the replies

.

We have a winnah!

re: #240 windsagio

Since when is debate not allowed here?

re: #240 windsagio

One side? I thought we were chatting. Why does it have to be a contest?

re: #239 MandyManners

Here you go Mandy. Might save some wear and tear on your eyes.

Eye Roll

re: #243 Bagua

I've really got to go you bastards >>

Thats not quite right is it? Most of this thread has essentially been Darthstar and I vs. everyone else. He and I have both been carefully (and in my case intentionally, you know how I get) meek and friendly because of what got said last thread. There are plenty of people taking the other position that aren't extending that same courtesy.

What shocks me is that its been like an hour and a half since the rebuke was posted.

re: #240 windsagio

Ok, I've gotta go get lunch, so I'm gonna just put this out here, and be back in an hour.

Its sad that just 1 thread after Charles bitched us all out over being too nasty and argumentative the tone in here is so angry and hostile.

If people were fighting back, this thread would be trashed in minutes. As it is, one side is showing some restraint and not slapping back.

Its worth thinking about.

You really need a lot of hand holding don't you?

re: #246 Walter L. Newton

You really need a lot of hand holding don't you?

in bed

re: #242 MandyManners

Since when is debate not allowed here?

Actually, you are the one who tried to shut down debate by redefining it as bullying:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

re: #242 MandyManners

Since when is debate not allowed here?

It obviously is.

On a personal note, let me just say that I respect you for updinging me when you agree with what I have to say, even though you and I were in a pissing match just yesterday. I hope you note that I do the same.

With that in mind, I really do most sincerely think you ought to change your repulsive avatar. It makes your otherwise laudable pro-Israel and anti-Islamofascist statements look suspect, and casts a bad light on the blog. For what it's worth.

re: #240 windsagio

Ok, I've gotta go get lunch, so I'm gonna just put this out here, and be back in an hour.

Its sad that just 1 thread after Charles bitched us all out over being too nasty and argumentative the tone in here is so angry and hostile.

If people were fighting back, this thread would be trashed in minutes. As it is, one side is showing some restraint and not slapping back.

Its worth thinking about.

Agreed, and have a good one windsagio. Dinner time for me too.

re: #245 windsagio

I've really got to go you bastards >>

Thats not quite right is it? Most of this thread has essentially been Darthstar and I vs. everyone else. He and I have both been carefully (and in my case intentionally, you know how I get) meek and friendly because of what got said last thread. There are plenty of people taking the other position that aren't extending that same courtesy.

What shocks me is that its been like an hour and a half since the rebuke was posted.

And comment after comment has been posted to refute your statements... but as you said above, the refutations have to be "substantively" in content, which is simply another way of say, facts or truths be damned, you have the final decision if you want to accept the facts. Well, it's a catch 22 which none of use can play.

But you already know that.

re: #249 Cato the Elder

Also, Bill Watterson hates it when anyone uses Calvin for anything whatsoever.