A Fascist Summit Meeting in Belgium

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Here’s some interesting news from the far right scene in Europe. For years, the Belgian Vlaams Belang party (a European party promoted by “anti-jihad” bloggers such as Pamela Geller, Gates of Vienna, and Brussels Journal) tried to deny they had any connection to the neo-Nazi British National Party.

Well, they just stopped hiding it. A VB-sponsored event in the Belgian city of Ghent yesterday featured Frank Vanhecke of the Vlaams Belang, Nick Griffin of the BNP, Bruno Gollnisch of the National Front, and Andreas Molzer of the Austrian FPO. A who’s who of outright Nazis, fascists, and Holocaust deniers.

The Lancaster Unity blog has a report on this fascist summit: Nick Griffin’s foreign fascist festival.

Fresh from agreeing to allow blacks and Asians join his party, Nick Griffin is this week embracing a group of men who have funny names and speak foreign languages. Have his regular trips to Brussels and Strasbourg finally brought out the British National Party chief’s cosmopolitan side?

Of course they haven’t. Far from sampling the diversity of Europe, Griffin [shared] a platform with some of the continent’s most narrow-minded politicians in Ghent yesterday (Wednesday).

According to his Facebook fan page, Griffin visited the Belgian city to address a “student symposium”. Yet the poster for the event indicated there will be precious little of the academic chin-rubbing you’d normally expect at a meeting billed as such. The poster depicts a burqa-clad woman standing in front of a European flag studded with minaret spires.

This crass Islamophobia is typical of promotional material produced by the far-right party Vlaams Belang (Flemish Interest), whose de facto youth wing, the National Student Association (NSV), is organising the event. Like the BNP, the Vlaams Belang has had to amend its rulebook in recent years after its precursor, the Vlaams Blok, was banned for flouting anti-discrimination laws.

Frank Vanhecke, the Vlaams Belang leader, also scheduled to speak in Ghent, is not as openly xenophobic as he used to be – he once denounced an Amsterdam mayor who named a square after Nelson Mandela as a “renegade towards his own people and race”. Yet he has no qualms about inciting hatred against Muslims. Women who wear a veil, he has said, have signed a contract for their deportation.

Another guest in Ghent was Bruno Gollnisch, deputy-leader of the French National Front. Gollnisch has been helping the BNP finesse its electoral strategy, according to a story in the Daily Mirror. By turning to him for advice, Griffin evidently no longer appears as keen to emphasise that he is “not” an anti-Semite as he was during his Question Time appearance. In 2004, Gollnisch suggested that the Nazi gas chambers may be a myth.

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129 comments
1 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 10:37:21am

Shrieks attack in 3...2...1...

2 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 10:38:14am

Was the Screacher invited?

3 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 10:40:23am

Have you heard it on the news?
About this fascist groove thang?

Sorry...but fascists always make me want to dance...though this song is kind of dated now...Reagan isn't president-elect anymore.

4 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 10:41:35am

I'd like to point out that further in the article it shows that EU nations are already violating international law in dealing with asylum seekers, a move that must please the Fascists greatly.

5 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 10:42:53am

By the way, one of the top links at Drudge Report right now goes to ... the John Birch Society website.

6 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 10:45:21am

When I Googled Lancasteruaf, one of the top five results was Stormfront and the little blip was not very nice. Too bad my ISP won't let me visit Stormfront.

7 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 10:45:23am

It's time to trot out that old self-identifying email from Robert Spencer to me about these fascist groups.

"Robert, can you answer one simple question for me. This would help a lot in deciding what is really going on here. Which European plitical parties do you UNCONDITIONALLY condemn because of their proven ties to racist nationalism?" (Walter L. Newton email to
Robert Spencer sent on Friday, November 07, 2008 1:16 PM)

And his answer...

"Actually, I am fighting jihad, and have no interest in or intention to investigate these groups. Insofar as they are fighting jihad, I applaud them. Insofar as they are doing anything else, my endorsement is not implied." (Robert Spencer email answer to Walter L. Newton sent on Sat 11/8/2008 10:39 AM)

Oops. Wrong answer, huh Robert. See article above.

8 Donna Ballard  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 10:46:22am

Wonderful //, just wonderful //. Just what the world needs.../// See you all later, my muse beckons.

9 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 10:47:16am

re: #5 Charles

By the way, one of the top links at Drudge Report right now goes to ... the John Birch Society website.

I've come to the conclusion that the mainsteaming of the Birch Society is mostly a case of mass insanity. Glenn Beck and the Koch brothers certainly helped but there was some latent tendency in the conservative mind that was triggered around the time of the last election.

10 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 10:47:22am

Oh Brother. Just took a swing over to AS and she is still harping on the Obama is a Muslim meme.

11 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 10:47:37am

Next up: cries of "Guilt by association!!1!"

Guess what. If you associate with "A who’s who of outright Nazis, fascists, and Holocaust deniers", you are guilty of associating with a who’s who of outright Nazis, fascists, and Holocaust deniers.

12 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 10:49:56am

re: #9 Killgore Trout

I've come to the conclusion that the mainsteaming of the Birch Society is mostly a case of mass insanity. Glenn Beck and the Koch brothers certainly helped but there was some latent tendency in the conservative mind that was triggered around the time of the last election.

You could be 100 percent correct. In that case, I would stay away fro ALL CONSERVATIVES if you value your mental health.

A little hyperbolic maybe?

13 Summer Seale  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 10:50:33am

Something tells me that there could be a swastika on the poster and behind the speakers, that they could give the Nazi salute, that they could hand out free copies of Mein Kampf, that their opening statement could declare something like "We are all Nazis", that they could celebrate it on Hitler's birthday and openly state that this is a party for Hitler, and that they could put up giant slides of concentration camp blueprints and openly state that this is a perfect way to deal with people they disagree with...


...and I would be willing to be anything you want that Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, Gate of Vienna, and all the others who flamed Charles over this issue would stand up and say that this still does not prove that these people are Nazis, and that they don't support Nazis in any way.

14 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 10:51:00am

It's telling that the extreme right from Germany (NPD, DVU) wasn't attending. I guess they just wanted attendents who at least tried to whitewash their ideology for the perception of the average citizen. For some reason, the german neonazis have been remarkably absent from pan-european neo-fascist events and organizations (like Identity, Tradition, Sovereignty). The more-populistic-and-nativist-and-reactionary-than-actually-nazi far-right fringe (Pro Köln, Pro NRW I guess is too unimportant.

15 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 10:52:13am

re: #14 000G

It's telling that the extreme right from Germany (NPD, DVU) wasn't attending. I guess they just wanted attendents who at least tried to whitewash their ideology for the perception of the average citizen. For some reason, the german neonazis have been remarkably absent from pan-european neo-fascist events and organizations (like Identity, Tradition, Sovereignty). The more-populistic-and-nativist-and-reactionary-than- actually-nazi far-right fringe (Pro Köln, Pro NRW I guess is too unimportant.

The Germans have been cracking down on their neo-Nazi parties lately. They probably want to keep a low profile for a while.

16 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 10:52:54am

re: #13 Summer

They'd say they were trying to redeem it. They're taking it back!

17 Lidane  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 10:53:18am

re: #9 Killgore Trout

I've come to the conclusion that the mainsteaming of the Birch Society is mostly a case of mass insanity.

I hope you're right. Seeing the Birchers and all this far right nuttery entering the mainstream has been unsettling, to say the least.

18 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 10:55:26am
19 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 10:56:31am

I can't even read that poster and it scared me.

20 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 10:58:53am

re: #16 Obdicut

They'd say they were trying to redeem it. They're taking it back!

No... they would say something like Robert Spencer would say...

"Actually, I am fighting jihad, and have no interest in or intention to investigate these groups. Insofar as they are fighting jihad, I applaud them. Insofar as they are doing anything else, my endorsement is not implied." (Robert Spencer email answer to Walter L. Newton sent on Sat 11/8/2008 10:39 AM)

21 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:00:24am

re: #19 webevintage

And I mistook the minarets for missiles for a moment there...

"Drop your bombs between the minarets, down the Casbah way."

- The Clash (somewhat different context though)

22 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:01:58am

re: #21 oaktree

And I mistook the minarets for missiles for a moment there...

"Drop your bombs between the minarets, down the Casbah way."

- The Clash (somewhat different context though)

They're meant to look like that, IIUC.

Excellent song, though, and my personal theme background to all the footage of protesters in Iran.

23 sandbox  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:03:06am
The poster depicts a burqa-clad woman standing in front of a European flag studded with minaret spires.

I do not like neo-fascist groups being a part of the counter jihad movement. But I am also afraid of the Islamofascists. Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread.

For example, re the poster, I favor outlawing the face covering (niqab) and all public mask wearing.

24 KingKenrod  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:03:23am

re: #9 Killgore Trout

I've come to the conclusion that the mainsteaming of the Birch Society is mostly a case of mass insanity. Glenn Beck and the Koch brothers certainly helped but there was some latent tendency in the conservative mind that was triggered around the time of the last election.

Well, there was no prospect of a leftist agenda being realized while Bush was president. With Obama's election, that prospect became a reality and many conservatives let their fear drive them to action. The same thing happened when Clinton was elected.

25 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:07:44am

re: #23 sandbox

For example, re the poster, I favor outlawing the face covering (niqab) and all public mask wearing.

Why? What the hell good will that do?

26 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:09:01am

re: #23 sandbox

I do not like neo-fascist groups being a part of the counter jihad movement. But I am also afraid of the Islamofascists. Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread.

For example, re the poster, I favor outlawing the face covering (niqab) and all public mask wearing.

My understanding is that very few women actually wear the niqab or burqa in Europe, and that the discussion about banning it is largely a matter of political significance.

I have to say, I have seen a woman cover her face on the street in England exactly once, same number as in San Francisco.

Are there any stats on it out there?

27 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:09:27am

re: #22 SanFranciscoZionist

I concur. A somewhat subtle way to tap into a number of fears.

28 sandbox  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:09:44am

re: #25 Obdicut

security: why should one group except themselves from the video cameras in public places.

shows we as a society are against misogny.

29 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:10:01am

re: #25 Obdicut

Why? What the hell good will that do?

Well, it might make it a bit harder for people to conceal their identities in public places. THere have been a few robberies by suspects dressed in such attire.

And recall that many states and municipalities here in the States had laws against being masked in public places; it was an anti-Klan measure.

30 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:11:04am

re: #15 Killgore Trout

The Germans have been cracking down on their neo-Nazi parties lately. They probably want to keep a low profile for a while.

Well, I just noticed that for years now the far, far right-wing parties of Europe have all come together and tried to form a far, far right-wing block. Only the parties from Germany are missing. And I don't think this is because of keeping a low profile. There have only been half-hearted attempts at banning the NPD (the biggest one) since 2003 (I think mainly because they have so many moles from the federal government). 2006 they got voted into the parliament of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, 2009 into Saxony...

My take on it is that if you go far, far-right, you have a good chance at arriving at a neo-nazi ideology. In Germany, that means german, "authentic" neo-nazis. Not that any of them have been around when the actual nazis were around (with some exceptions, but the majority has died or plays no active role in politics anymore), but I can still see how it could strike up some ambivalent feelings, striking up pan-european alliances in a democratic setting where formerly the german nazis had their, well, very unique way of forming a united europe.

31 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:11:44am

re: #29 Guanxi88

I saw a newspaper article in Philadelphia yesterday where a local school official was advocating banning the wearing of hoodies since there have been issues with identifying youths involved in gang fights.

I'm sure that will go over well.

32 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:12:10am

re: #28 sandbox

security: why should one group except themselves from the video cameras in public places.

Should we ban wide-brimmed hats too, then? And beards? Beards make for easy disguieses.

shows we as a society are against misogny.

How does face-covering map directly to misogyny?

re: #29 Guanxi88

And same questions for you. Wide-brimmed hats, long beards, those cool?

33 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:12:23am

re: #31 oaktree

I saw a newspaper article in Philadelphia yesterday where a local school official was advocating banning the wearing of hoodies since there have been issues with identifying youths involved in gang fights.

I'm sure that will go over well.

I"ve hated hooded sweatshirts since their first appearance on the scene. Ridiculous garments.

34 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:12:37am

re: #28 sandbox

security: why should one group except themselves from the video cameras in public places.

shows we as a society are against misogny.

Security is potentially an issue, although I have to say I'm curious to know how enthused you normally are about 'video cameras in public places'. I have mixed feelings about that point.

Passing laws to tell women what to wear does not show anything about being against misogyny as a society, especially when we solely focus on a minority culture. Why not ban high heels?

35 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:13:10am

re: #29 Guanxi88

Well, it might make it a bit harder for people to conceal their identities in public places. THere have been a few robberies by suspects dressed in such attire.

And recall that many states and municipalities here in the States had laws against being masked in public places; it was an anti-Klan measure.

I suspect that very few pious Muslim ladies are going to be joining the Klan.

36 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:13:41am

re: #34 SanFranciscoZionist

I guess we can get around the whole issue by mandating everyone to get a RFID tag installed... oh wait!

/

37 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:14:09am

re: #32 Obdicut

How does face-covering map directly to misogyny?

re: #29 Guanxi88

And same questions for you. Wide-brimmed hats, long beards, those cool?

Depends - is it possible that a person could appear in that manner in such a way as to preclude any and all possible identification or distinction one from another?

And spare me the solicitous concern for the cultural oddities of others - you cannot have safety and security when people are strolling about with their identities completely concealed.

38 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:14:50am

re: #35 SanFranciscoZionist

I suspect that very few pious Muslim ladies are going to be joining the Klan.

I'm not saying they would be likely recruits. Simply that, at least here in the states, there is a precedent for prohibiting concealing one's face in a public place.

39 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:15:47am

re: #37 Guanxi88

Depends - is it possible that a person could appear in that manner in such a way as to preclude any and all possible identification or distinction one from another?

Yes, to the same extent that a face-covering can hide someone.

And spare me the solicitous concern for the cultural oddities of others - you cannot have safety and security when people are strolling about with their identities completely concealed.

So we should outlaw any costumes that cover the identity of the person wearing them? Basically, nobody should be allowed to be anonymous in a public place, the state should always know who we are and where we are, in public?

That's pretty damn insanely statist, to me.

40 sandbox  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:17:15am

re: #34 SanFranciscoZionist

I can't believe that I actually have to defend Banning the Veil on lgf.

I also favor banning all public mask wearing--for example at the Vancouver Olympics just now there were some riots by mask wearing anarchists in downtown. They were wearing masks so they couldn't be IDd while breaking store front windows. It should be outlawed.

41 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:18:00am

re: #39 Obdicut

So we should outlaw any costumes that cover the identity of the person wearing them? Basically, nobody should be allowed to be anonymous in a public place, the state should always know who we are and where we are, in public?

That's pretty damn insanely statist, to me.

I have a serious problem with people concealing their identities in public places, as it creates the opportunity for people to engage in conduct that they'd just as soon NOT have linked to them.

We have seen the use of these outfits to conceal criminals and terrorists - granted, not often here in the states - though there have been a few burqa robberies. Lord forbid we should ask that people not deliberately conceal their recognizable and public appearance.

Yep, that's me - a statist.

42 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:18:30am

re: #40 sandbox

I can't believe that I actually have to defend Banning the Veil on lgf.

I also favor banning all public mask wearing--for example at the Vancouver Olympics just now there were some riots by mask wearing anarchists in downtown. They were wearing masks so they couldn't be IDd while breaking store front windows. It should be outlawed.

That sounds pretty insanely statist, to some.

43 sandbox  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:19:30am

re: #34 SanFranciscoZionist
They can wear the burka--just not the veil--the face covering. Understand?

44 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:21:21am

re: #43 sandbox

They can wear the burka--just not the veil--the face covering. Understand?

"Yes, officer. The suspect was either a male or female, of some age or other. He or she had two eyes..."

45 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:23:48am

re: #41 Guanxi88

Yes, it is massively statist to mandate a dress code for your citizens in the name of safety and security.

Outlawing Halloween also makes you an enormous party-pooper.

This is a short-sighted idea that's clearly targeted against only Muslims.

46 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:24:30am

re: #40 sandbox

I can't believe that I actually have to defend Banning the Veil on lgf.

I also favor banning all public mask wearing--for example at the Vancouver Olympics just now there were some riots by mask wearing anarchists in downtown. They were wearing masks so they couldn't be IDd while breaking store front windows. It should be outlawed.

Yes, God forbid you have to discuss or defend your ideas here.

Is it legal to wear a mask in Vancouver? I ask, because since these people were breaking other people's windows, I assume they were not so into the law. Do you think they would behave better if it was illegal to wear a mask?

Like I say, I don't dismiss the security issue. I just want to evaluate it, rather than assuming that banning the veil is some kind of obvious social good.

47 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:25:00am

Seriously though, why stop at veils? If you'd seen me with and without my beard you'd swear I was two vastly different looking people. Big, dark sunglasses? Very long and messy hair? All of these could easily conceal someones face.

48 sandbox  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:25:24am

re: #45 Obdicut

Exceptions are for Holloween, Purim, Mardi Gras, etc. Otherwise no public mask wearing.

49 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:25:41am

re: #45 Obdicut

Yes, it is massively statist to mandate a dress code for your citizens in the name of safety and security.

Outlawing Halloween also makes you an enormous party-pooper.

This is a short-sighted idea that's clearly targeted against only Muslims.

Outlawing Halloween? Who proposes such a ridiculous thing? Grasping at straws, on that one.

And it's not targeted only against muslims. Hindus, Taoists, and Mormons are also prohibited from appearing with covered faces.

50 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:25:54am

re: #43 sandbox

They can wear the burka--just not the veil--the face covering. Understand?

Yes, I fully understand. I just don't automatically AGREE.

51 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:26:30am

re: #44 Guanxi88

"Yes, officer. The suspect was either a male or female, of some age or other. He or she had two eyes..."

I have no problem with anyone wearing any sort of covering for cultural or religious reasons.

I do have a problem when they ask to be excluded from the standard laws. Such as wanting to be photographed for a ID or a drivers license with full covering.

Or refusing to remove the covering when asked by law enforcement or other parties who have the legal right to confirm identification.

52 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:27:21am

re: #48 sandbox

Exceptions are for Holloween, Purim, Mardi Gras, etc. Otherwise no public mask wearing.

Why make exceptions? There's often vandalism at Halloween and Mardi Gras. (Purim, not so much in my neighborhood, maybe in Tel Aviv. Why should people be allowed to wear masks then?

53 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:27:29am

re: #49 Guanxi88

And it's not targeted only against muslims. Hindus, Taoists, and Mormons are also prohibited from appearing with covered faces.

And gay men can get married to women.

Again: Mandating a dress code for your citizens, demanding that they never be anonymous to the state, is a statist idea. You can defend it as necessary, but it is very much favoring the state over the citizen.

54 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:27:34am

re: #51 Walter L. Newton

I have no problem with anyone wearing any sort of covering for cultural or religious reasons.

I do have a problem when they ask to be excluded from the standard laws. Such as wanting to be photographed for a ID or a drivers license with full covering.

Or refusing to remove the covering when asked by law enforcement or other parties who have the legal right to confirm identification.

This, I can agree with.

55 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:28:33am

re: #53 Obdicut

What about my proposal in re: #51 Walter L. Newton

56 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:28:39am

re: #30 000G

...but I can still see how it could strike up some ambivalent feelings, striking up pan-european alliances in a democratic setting where formerly the german nazis had their, well, very unique way of forming a united europe.

Nicely put.

57 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:28:55am

re: #53 Obdicut

And gay men can get married to women.

Again: Mandating a dress code for your citizens, demanding that they never be anonymous to the state, is a statist idea. You can defend it as necessary, but it is very much favoring the state over the citizen.

Dress code? Again, clutching at straws. So many, in fact, that you've built yourself quite the strawman, there.

58 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:30:01am

re: #53 Obdicut

And gay men can get married to women.

Again: Mandating a dress code for your citizens, demanding that they never be anonymous to the state, is a statist idea. You can defend it as necessary, but it is very much favoring the state over the citizen.

I once wrote a blog entry about this in which I stated that I am not totally convinced that society has a vested interest in seeing my nose. I am still not totally convinced one way or the other.

59 sandbox  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:30:09am

re: #51 Walter L. Newton

Wayne, so they have to take off the veil for their driver's license photo, but then can drive around wearing the veil.

France is in the process of banning the veil in public. Good for them.

60 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:30:34am

re: #55 Walter L. Newton

I have no problem with that, as long as the law enforcement person has an actual reason to ask them to remove it, and it's not simple harassment.

re: #57 Guanxi88


Lack of any actual counterargument noted.

61 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:30:41am

re: #58 SanFranciscoZionist

I once wrote a blog entry about this in which I stated that I am not totally convinced that society has a vested interest in seeing my nose. I am still not totally convinced one way or the other.

It's a lovely nose - think of the sufferings of our ancestors, all they went through, to gift it to you. Share it, is what I say.

62 Randall Gross  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:31:56am

Trying to tell someone they can't wear x or y while in public is unconstitutional and just plain wrong.

63 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:32:27am

re: #60 Obdicut

I have no problem with that, as long as the law enforcement person has an actual reason to ask them to remove it, and it's not simple harassment.

re: #57 Guanxi88

Lack of any actual counterargument noted.

Lack of any comprehension also noted. Who says you've got to go around with ID clipped to you? Who says you've got to have some mythical "dress code"?

All I'm suggesting, i the interests of public safety and order, is that people not be permitted - as a general rule - to go about with their faces concealed. That this is controversial or statist strikes me as typically absurd.

You can't conceal your license plate on your vehicle, can you? Statist!

64 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:32:27am

re: #59 sandbox

Wayne, so they have to take off the veil for their driver's license photo, but then can drive around wearing the veil.

France is in the process of banning the veil in public. Good for them.

France also banned kids from wearing headscarves or yarmulkes in school. I have my suspicions about France.

Also, France is not the United States. France openly assumes a great deal of state control over their citizens and a uniform national culture. We have a different tradition here.

65 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:32:40am

re: #59 sandbox

Wayne, so they have to take off the veil for their driver's license photo, but then can drive around wearing the veil.

France is in the process of banning the veil in public. Good for them.

I should amend my statement to include prohibiting usage of the vail during any activity that the vail would cause a danger (as in limited vision) to the person or others.

And my fucking name is Walter.

66 sandbox  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:33:04am

re: #62 Thanos

I believe laws banning the KKK from mask wearing in public were found constitutional.

67 Randall Gross  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:33:34am

re: #64 SanFranciscoZionist

France also banned kids from wearing headscarves or yarmulkes in school. I have my suspicions about France.

Also, France is not the United States. France openly assumes a great deal of state control over their citizens and a uniform national culture. We have a different tradition here.

See the articles I posted up top in spinoffs, France is running off the tracks on both the left and right with these matters.

68 Randall Gross  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:33:57am

re: #66 sandbox

I believe laws banning the KKK from mask wearing in public were found constitutional.

Got a link?

69 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:34:04am

re: #67 Thanos

See the articles I posted up top in spinoffs, France is running off the tracks on both the left and right with these matters.

They're France - let the French worry about it.

70 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:35:19am

re: #64 SanFranciscoZionist

France also banned kids from wearing headscarves or yarmulkes in school. I have my suspicions about France.

Also, France is not the United States. France openly assumes a great deal of state control over their citizens and a uniform national culture. We have a different tradition here.

I spent a lot of time I France. You frequently see gendarmes stopping evidently Muslim people, especially woman, and asking to see proper papers proving that they are citizens or have a proper visa.

I've seen it happen, right in public, many times in metro stations.

71 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:35:38am

re: #59 sandbox

Wayne, so they have to take off the veil for their driver's license photo, but then can drive around wearing the veil.

France is in the process of banning the veil in public. Good for them.

Doesn't that screw up peripheral vision?

72 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:35:46am

re: #66 sandbox

I believe laws banning the KKK from mask wearing in public were found constitutional.

Good point. Now, those laws were meant to specifically eff with the KKK, which I consider an unquestionable social good. The question in my mind is whether there is a social good presented by banning the niqab which justifies the inconvenience to people who wish to wear it.

I think Walter's suggestions are excellent.

73 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:36:22am

re: #68 Thanos

Got a link?

National Lawyer's Guild

[Link: www.nlgnyc.org...]

GA Supreme Court:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

74 jaunte  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:36:34am

re: #68 Thanos

Here's a story from 2004:

A 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals panel ruled on Tuesday that a New York state anti-mask law did not violate the free-speech rights of supremacist groups such as the Ku Klux Klan. Legal experts are divided on this ruling and whether it clarifies contradictory court decisions on wearing masks at public demonstrations.

"In the end, we all know what the (New York) statute is after -- the wearing of hoods, such as by the KKK. That may or may not be a bad thing," said Robert Destro, a professor of law and free-speech expert at Catholic University in Washington, D.C. "These laws need to clearly state the government's interest." The hoods include a mask.

The 3-0 ruling by the appeals court panel reversed a district judge's decision that found the state law violated the First Amendment rights of the Butler, Indiana-based Church of the American Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. [Link: www.cnn.com...]

75 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:36:37am

re: #65 Walter L. Newton

I should amend my statement to include prohibiting usage of the vail during any activity that the vail would cause a danger (as in limited vision) to the person or others.

And my fucking name is Walter.

What's your regular name?

76 Randall Gross  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:36:41am

The reason I ask is that you can wear Nazi unis in public, and these guys don't seem to be put in jail.

[Link: www.firstcoastnews.com...]

77 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:37:38am

re: #75 MandyManners

What's your regular name?

Apples the Clown.
;)

78 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:37:59am

re: #71 MandyManners

Doesn't that screw up peripheral vision?

Probably, but I imagine big fake eyelashes, or those dumb hoodies, do as well.

79 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:38:46am

re: #76 Thanos

The reason I ask is that you can wear Nazi unis in public, and these guys don't seem to be put in jail.

[Link: www.firstcoastnews.com...]

The uniforms are in piss-poor taste, and constitute incitement, at least to my mind. But they don't conceal the identities of their wearers.

80 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:39:16am

re: #72 SanFranciscoZionist

Good point. Now, those laws were meant to specifically eff with the KKK, which I consider an unquestionable social good. The question in my mind is whether there is a social good presented by banning the niqab which justifies the inconvenience to people who wish to wear it.

I think Walter's suggestions are excellent.

Thank you... and my suggestions have already been held up in many courts in the US.

In a sense, that's the current law of the land, or at least standard practice... not face covering for ID's, a proper authority can ask to see someone's face fully for identification purposes and you cannot obstruct your view or vision when participating in some sort of activity where limited view or vision could be a danger to you or others.

81 Randall Gross  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:39:50am

re: #73 Guanxi88

National Lawyer's Guild

[Link: www.nlgnyc.org...]

GA Supreme Court:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Sorry but in your example the court found in favor of the KKK

82 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:39:50am

re: #75 MandyManners

What's your regular name?

Big and Thick.

83 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:39:58am

re: #77 Varek Raith

in bed?

/

84 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:41:10am

re: #81 Thanos

Sorry but in your example the court found in favor of the KKK

Which one - the NLG or GA one? 'Cause the GA supremes found the law to be constitutional.

85 sandbox  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:41:35am

In advocating Banning the Veil, I was attempting to relate to the original subject of this blog. Which is the influence of neo-fascist types into the counter jihad movement in European countries. Consider that when the public at large sees women going out in public wearing the veil it reinforces the idea that their government does not take seriously the threat of radical islam. That their government is so afraid of the radical islamists they won't ban the veil.

Which leads to support for the BNP et al. which is not a bad development. As in--fools rush in where wise men fear to tread.

86 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:41:49am

re: #78 SanFranciscoZionist

Probably, but I imagine big fake eyelashes, or those dumb hoodies, do as well.

As much as a full scarf that covers all but the eyes?

87 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:42:05am

re: #81 Thanos

Sorry but in your example the court found in favor of the KKK

Lower court did - GA supremes overturned it.

88 Randall Gross  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:42:51am

re: #81 Thanos

Sorry but in your example the court found in favor of the KKK

Whoops, later upheld on appeal, still digging

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

89 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:43:20am

re: #82 Walter L. Newton

Big and Thick.

Oh, wow. I can't believe you said that.

On second thought, I can.

90 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:43:27am

re: #86 MandyManners

As much as a full scarf that covers all but the eyes?

I dunno - I don't live too awful far from a mosque - I see a ton of veiled ladies driving (hey! it's texas, even conservative muslimas dirve here!) and they seem to do all right with it.

91 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:46:06am

re: #85 sandbox

I view banning the veil as a rather roundabout and ultimately counterproductive way of combating radical Islam. The issue is not with the religion, and it's participants, in general. Instead the conflict is with a sub-set of the the religion's followers who are intolerant, violent, and essentially in a state that cannot be negotiated with. Banning a piece of cultural clothing (though I concur with Walter in terms of standard laws being followed regarding safety and identification) is not going to advance the solution very far in that regard.

92 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:46:33am

It's a funny thing - but I'm beginning to think maybe the anti-Klan laws aren't a perfect match to this case, even though I was one of the ones to bring them up.

93 Randall Gross  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:46:35am

re: #85 sandbox

In advocating Banning the Veil, I was attempting to relate to the original subject of this blog. Which is the influence of neo-fascist types into the counter jihad movement in European countries. Consider that when the public at large sees women going out in public wearing the veil it reinforces the idea that their government does not take seriously the threat of radical islam. That their government is so afraid of the radical islamists they won't ban the veil.

Which leads to support for the BNP et al. which is not a bad development. As in--fools rush in where wise men fear to tread.

And that's a bullshit argument. Masks are a symptom, a symbol -- not the problem itself. Even in G's example 2 KKK'ers are free to Walk around NY in public in Masks. Everyone else is entitled to point and laugh at them.

94 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:46:42am

re: #82 Walter L. Newton

Big and Thick.

Walter's Other Names

95 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:47:48am

re: #93 Thanos

And that's a bullshit argument. Masks are a symptom, a symbol -- not the problem itself. Even in G's example 2 KKK'ers are free to Walk around NY in public in Masks. Everyone else is entitled to point and laugh at them.

Yeah - I don't get the rationale for the three or more provisions there. It's a weird thing, all around, though I'd note that they'd be easy to spot.

96 Randall Gross  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:51:02am

re: #95 Guanxi88

Yeah - I don't get the rationale for the three or more provisions there. It's a weird thing, all around, though I'd note that they'd be easy to spot.

I do get it, and can see some of the logic. A large mob is dangerous, a large anonymous mob is even more dangerous, there is an argument for public safety behind it.

97 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:52:10am

re: #90 Guanxi88

I dunno - I don't live too awful far from a mosque - I see a ton of veiled ladies driving (hey! it's texas, even conservative muslimas dirve here!) and they seem to do all right with it.

Can't do it in Saudi Arabia yet, can they?

98 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:58:13am
99 sandbox  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:58:33am

re: #91 oaktree

I view banning the veil as a rather roundabout and ultimately counterproductive way of combating radical Islam

Why is it counter productive? It draws a line.

100 Randall Gross  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:58:49am

re: #96 Thanos

I do get it, and can see some of the logic. A large mob is dangerous, a large anonymous mob is even more dangerous, there is an argument for public safety behind it.

Let me put it another way - you aren't going to worry too much if you pass three bikers with colors and tatts on the sidewalk, but if you have to pass 20 you worry a bit more. If you have to pass 20 who are also wearing masks you have to wonder at their motives.

This is why it's reasonable to support the "no large gatherings of masks' bit. The other reason is that it would probably be found unconstitutional to tell an individual rather than a group how they may dress.

101 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:59:39am

re: #97 MandyManners

Can't do it in Saudi Arabia yet, can they?

That's why they're in Texas!

102 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:00:19pm

re: #99 sandbox

I don't accept the equivalence that "radical Islam" = "wearing a veil".

103 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:00:47pm

re: #97 MandyManners

Can't do it in Saudi Arabia yet, can they?

And most of our Arab muslim population are outta the Gulf States - a certain commonality of weather and industries.

104 Randall Gross  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:02:41pm

re: #99 sandbox

Why is it counter productive? It draws a line.

No, it doesn't. It creates animosity and friction while accomplishing nothing. If a woman wearing a veil scares you or bothers you overmuch I would suggest that it's your problem, not hers. Banning veils creates repression and furthers our opponent's causes. It creates sympathy for them where none is warranted.

If you can ban veils, you can ban kippahs or nun's habits, or biker colors -- it's a slippery damned precedent setting slope and I rarely make those sort of arguments.

105 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:04:03pm

re: #101 Guanxi88

That's why they're in Texas!

Now I have "All my exes live in Texas" playing in my head.

106 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:04:38pm

re: #103 Guanxi88

And most of our Arab muslim population are outta the Gulf States - a certain commonality of weather and industries.

I noticed quite a few Brits in Seattle.

107 sandbox  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:06:14pm

re: #104 Thanos

Yes I am afraid of veil wearing women and people who walk around in public wearing masks.

108 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:07:12pm

re: #100 Thanos

Let me put it another way - you aren't going to worry too much if you pass three bikers with colors and tatts on the sidewalk, but if you have to pass 20 you worry a bit more. If you have to pass 20 who are also wearing masks you have to wonder at their motives.

This is why it's reasonable to support the "no large gatherings of masks' bit. The other reason is that it would probably be found unconstitutional to tell an individual rather than a group how they may dress.

If you've just knocked down a row of their bikes, you worry even more.

(Thinking Pee-wee's Big Adventure)

109 Randall Gross  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:07:27pm

re: #107 sandbox

Yes I am afraid of veil wearing women and people who walk around in public wearing masks.

Then you are truly a cowardly weenie, and with you the terrorists won. Lucky for us the rest of America is not like you.

110 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:08:39pm

re: #85 sandbox

In advocating Banning the Veil, I was attempting to relate to the original subject of this blog. Which is the influence of neo-fascist types into the counter jihad movement in European countries. Consider that when the public at large sees women going out in public wearing the veil it reinforces the idea that their government does not take seriously the threat of radical islam. That their government is so afraid of the radical islamists they won't ban the veil.

Which leads to support for the BNP et al. which is not a bad development. As in--fools rush in where wise men fear to tread.

You want to ban the veil because that will make the government look strong and serious? That is not a good reason.

And you want the fools to rush in, because the wise men won't? That's not a smart strategy, to say the least.

111 William of Orange  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:11:33pm

I think Vanhecke's main beef with the Amsterdam major is that his name is Job Cohen, indeed, a Jew. So it puzzles me why he stumbled over naming a square after Nelson Mandela given that fact... Amsterdam historically spoken was always a Jewish stronghold, until the Germans ended that 70 years ago.

112 sandbox  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:14:43pm

re: #110 wrenchwench

IMO a major reason for the unfortunate upswing in support for neo-fascists in Europe is the fear that the continent is turning into Eurabia. That is a legitimate fear--so any steps the EU gov't can take against radical islam are desirable.

113 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:17:00pm

re: #112 sandbox

I don't accept the equivalence of "Non-white immigration" = "radical Islam".

114 sandbox  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:19:27pm

re: #113 oaktree

But that's not what I said, and you know it. Islam is a religion, not a race. And you know that too. We are at war with radical islam.

115 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:24:41pm

re: #112 sandbox

IMO a major reason for the unfortunate upswing in support for neo-fascists in Europe is the fear that the continent is turning into Eurabia. That is a legitimate fear--so any steps the EU gov't can take against radical islam are desirable.

So the EU should reduce the upswing in support for neo-fascists by pandering to those who fear "Eurabia"? Why not just counter the neo-fascists directly?

116 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:26:10pm

re: #113 oaktree

I don't accept the equivalence of "Non-white immigration" = "radical Islam".

Islam is a race? Really?

117 William of Orange  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:29:53pm

Well oaktree, I buy it. The tension between white Dutch people and Islamic "new Dutchies" is growing, especially the Moroccan community. There is also a massive Turkish population but they don't cause that many problems like Moroccans do. City suburbs like in Gouda (indeed of the cheese fame) and Culemborg are sometimes no go areas. This uease is fudder for the likes of Wilders. i do however think he is in a different league than Vlaams belang. Wilders loathes neo nazis.

118 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:34:43pm

re: #117 William of Orange

Did you see No. 18?

119 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:43:05pm

re: #117 William of Orange

What are the major differences between the Moroccan-descended and Turkish-descended communities?

For instance, has one of the communities been there for a much longer period of time, does it appear to be much more secular in behavior, is one growing faster than the other, etc.

I suspect that the issue(s) are much more nuanced than a simple matter of religion.

120 Randall Gross  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:08:01pm

re: #114 sandbox

Islam is a religion, not a race.

a favorite saying on all the Eurofascist websites, indeed they've made videos on that topic.

121 Randall Gross  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:09:31pm

re: #116 MandyManners

No, but religious bigotry isn't ok either.

122 sandbox  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:21:37pm

re: #121 Thanos

I'm glad to see you now agree that Islam is a religion.

123 Randall Gross  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:25:03pm

re: #122 sandbox

I'm glad to see you now agree that Islam is a religion.

I never said it wasn't.

124 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:36:50pm

The true nature of hatred is incapable of hiding its colors.

No we see them for what & who they are, and we are stronger for it.

125 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:37:30pm

re: #124 eclectic infidel

Drat! PIMF. No = now.

126 Spockista  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:42:21pm

re: #5 Charles

By the way, one of the top links at Drudge Report right now goes to ... the John Birch Society website.

oh...geeze...

They are getting some sort of okay because they are supposed to be the new kinder and gentler Birch Society.
Now that Breibart's big baddy has given them the big okay expect to see their dreck on BigGovernment.com.

This might also explain why Breitbart is so insistent in defending a Marcus Epstein/Jared Taylor event.

127 hokiepride  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 5:30:21pm

re: #107 sandbox

The problem is that the forces fighting radical islam like the Vlaams Belang, NF and BNP types are no better than radical Islam. They have the same tyrannical, fascistic outlook. Mainstream conservatives in Europe must act now before the far-right does.

128 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 10:38:28pm

re: #107 sandbox

Yes I am afraid of veil wearing women and people who walk around in public wearing masks.

You're both petty and shallow.

129 William of Orange  Fri, Feb 26, 2010 8:46:21am

re: #119 oaktree

What are the major differences between the Moroccan-descended and Turkish-descended communities?

For instance, has one of the communities been there for a much longer period of time, does it appear to be much more secular in behavior, is one growing faster than the other, etc.

I suspect that the issue(s) are much more nuanced than a simple matter of religion.


I don't know why the Turkish community adapted easier to the Dutch society than Moroccans did. Perhaps it's because Turkey is partly on the European mainland and the mentality is closer to the Dutch.


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