Here’s a live White House video stream from the festivities in Blair House, as Democrats and Republicans wrangle over health care reform legislation in a veritable blizzard of talking points.
1 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:05:12am |
Had a small problem with the video code when I first posted. It's fixed now if you reload.
| 3 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:08:44am |
Wow a real idea.
Finally.
I like the exchanges too and think his idea is a good one.
| 4 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:14:34am |
Oh, this is interesting.
The feed is on The Sunlight Foundation and they have a list of each speakers largest donors up as they speak.
[Link: sunlightfoundation.com...]
| 5 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:15:10am |
i missed the first thread and unable to hear the pre-lunch talks. Did they bring up fining people who don't carry insurance?
| 7 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:16:11am |
re: #5 Cannadian Club Akbar
i missed the first thread and unable to hear the pre-lunch talks. Did they bring up fining people who don't carry insurance?
Mandates have been touched on.
| 10 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:18:51am |
re: #9 Girth
Fox just cut away.
We'd like to show you more but frankly it would interfere with the preconceived narrative we're trying to uphold!
| 12 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:19:13am |
Talking about putting people in pools as segregating the sick
| 13 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:19:19am |
re: #11 Vambo
what's the breaking news this time? ACORN? Bill Ayers?
Anti health care reform poll results.
| 14 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:19:31am |
| 15 |
Girth Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:19:33am |
re: #11 Vambo
what's the breaking news this time? ACORN? Bill Ayers?
I believe they wanted to show a poll.
| 16 |
MandyManners Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:20:17am |
re: #5 Cannadian Club Akbar
i missed the first thread and unable to hear the pre-lunch talks. Did they bring up fining people who don't carry insurance?
What?
| 17 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:20:25am |
re: #12 Diego
Talking about putting people in pools as segregating the sick
Jesus. I wonder if that's the latest Frank Luntz tested gem.
| 18 |
Girth Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:20:32am |
re: #12 Diego
Talking about putting people in pools as segregating the sick
It's an interesting angle to take that I've never heard before.
| 19 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:20:40am |
| 20 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:20:46am |
| 22 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:21:32am |
| 23 |
Vambo Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:21:48am |
re: #15 Girth
I believe they wanted to show a poll.
Fox News Obamacare Poll:
Do you support Obamacare?
Yes - 2%
No - 89%
Where's the nirth certifikit - 12%
Taxed Enough Already - 33%
| 24 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:22:44am |
re: #23 Vambo
Fox News Obamacare Poll:
Do you support Obamacare?
Yes - 2%
No - 89%
Where's the nirth certifikit - 12%
Taxed Enough Already - 33%
Arugula- What's that?
| 25 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:22:58am |
re: #23 Vambo
Fox News Obamacare Poll:
Do you support Obamacare?
Yes - 2%
No - 89%
Where's the nirth certifikit - 12%
Taxed Enough Already - 33%
Wow look at the tits on that blonde anchor woman - 15%
| 26 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:23:12am |
re: #23 Vambo
Fox News Obamacare Poll:
Do you support Obamacare?
Yes - 2%
No - 89%
Where's the nirth certifikit - 12%
Taxed Enough Already - 33%
Surprised there wasn't at least a
7% Sarah/Glenn would you be the mother/father of my child?
| 27 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:23:20am |
Fox polls are online. It's only natural they'd be skewed.
| 28 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:24:27am |
re: #27 Diego
Fox polls are online. It's only natural they'd be skewed.
I'm sure MSNBC polls aren't.
/
| 29 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:24:48am |
re: #22 Cannadian Club Akbar
Fines if you carry no insurance and don't go on the gubment insurance.
Can't say I necessarily disagree with taking that route though. The Swiss mandate that you carry health insurance within 3 months of establishing residency. But they couple that requirement with stringent regulation of the private health insurance sector. If you can do both, it's a great idea.
If you only mandate coverage without fully locking down the insurance companies ability to jack up premiums indiscriminately... look out.
| 30 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:25:00am |
There wasn't a "Buying More Gold 24%" line?
/
| 31 |
ShaunP Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:25:13am |
re: #27 Diego
Fox polls are online. It's only natural they'd be skewed.
How about asking an honest, unbiased question? I'm surprised one of the answers wasn't "I don't support death panels"...
| 32 |
MandyManners Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:25:13am |
re: #22 Cannadian Club Akbar
Fines if you carry no insurance and don't go on the gubment insurance.
Totalitarianism, much?
| 33 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:25:26am |
| 34 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:25:38am |
| 35 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:25:55am |
re: #32 MandyManners
Mandy, calling something like that 'totalitarianism' trivializes those who have had to suffer under real totalitarian regimes.
| 36 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:26:32am |
| 37 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:26:36am |
I'm in the UK at the moment and heath care is fully covered by sales tax. I like it a lot. I've never had to wait for anything and everything is covered.
I know most of you will think this is evil, but it's not.
| 38 |
ShaunP Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:27:05am |
re: #37 Diego
I'm in the UK at the moment and heath care is fully covered by sales tax. I like it a lot. I've never had to wait for anything and everything is covered.
I know most of you will think this is evil, but it's not.
Socialism!
| 41 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:27:53am |
re: #37 Diego
I'm in the UK at the moment and heath care is fully covered by sales tax. I like it a lot. I've never had to wait for anything and everything is covered.
I know most of you will think this is evil, but it's not.
That's exactly the kind of thing our fore fathers broke away from the UK because of!
| 42 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:27:56am |
re: #32 MandyManners
Totalitarianism, much?
No, reality.
To have lower insurance costs everyone needs to be in the pool.
and for the most part the rest of us end up paying for those people who are not insured when they get sick or have an accident. That's the reality.
| 43 |
jaunte Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:27:58am |
Do Individual Mandates Matter?
Our contention that an individual mandate is critical to achieving universal coverage rests upon three points. First, many individuals will not choose to obtain coverage under a purely voluntary system. Second, adverse selection will occur under a voluntary insurance system.Third, it is politically difficult to redirect current government spending on care for the uninsured to offset the costs associated with new broad-based reforms unless the full population is insured.
(pdf paper at link)
| 44 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:29:11am |
re: #41 jamesfirecat
That's exactly the kind of thing our fore fathers broke away from the UK because of!
Incorrect
| 45 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:30:12am |
re: #44 Diego
Incorrect
No. Our forefathers broke away to get away from steak and kidney pie.
And to get dentistry.
| 46 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:30:22am |
| 47 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:30:24am |
| 48 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:30:46am |
| 49 |
MandyManners Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:31:30am |
| 50 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:31:45am |
re: #46 jamesfirecat
Recalibrate your sarcasm detector.
Sometimes a sarc tag works. Until someone gets to know you. Just sayin'.
| 51 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:33:27am |
Man. Republicans really think that buying across state lines is the cure to what ails us.
| 52 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:34:47am |
| 53 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:35:06am |
| 54 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:35:51am |
Rockefeller slapping at whoever called Sebelius an "unelected official"..
Oh lord, Blackburn is speaking now.
I think she will say something about death panels.
I do like her reading glasses.
(and I don't know why she is talking about "competition" since her side is against the public option which was deemed as too much "competition" for the insurance companies.)
| 55 |
lawhawk Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:36:33am |
re: #51 recusancy
If a policy is acceptable to state insurance authorities in state X and costs $100 a month, but you are in state Y where the minimum coverage will cost $500, there is more than a little amount of logic to it. It adds to competition to keep the costs down, and it would allow consumers buy policies that they feel they need, instead of those that are mandated that include services that they may never want or need.
| 57 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:38:22am |
re: #55 lawhawk
If a policy is acceptable to state insurance authorities in state X and costs $100 a month, but you are in state Y where the minimum coverage will cost $500, there is more than a little amount of logic to it. It adds to competition to keep the costs down, and it would allow consumers buy policies that they feel they need, instead of those that are mandated that include services that they may never want or need.
What's to stop them from all going to one state and buying up the legislature there ie. the credit card industry?
| 58 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:38:22am |
Fascinistic Socialism!
| 59 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:38:32am |
Has anyone brought up raising taxes?
| 60 |
lawhawk Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:38:46am |
re: #54 webevintage
Public option provides "competition" that has government backing and financing that enables them to undercut the private insurers. The government policy could take loses and simply raise tax revenues to cover the difference, while an insurer would be limited in how much they could raise premiums, hitting them from both ends. It's not exactly competition on a level playing field.
But if it's competition we want, why not let states open up insurance to those policies already acceptable in other states.
| 61 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:39:09am |
re: #51 recusancy
Man. Republicans really think that buying across state lines is the cure to what ails us.
Allowing that wouldn't hurt, if you also assume some sort of federal regulation so that some minimum standards are upheld. Otherwise, you get a "race to the bottom" in which carriers would domicile their coverage in the states with the least attentive (or most pliable) regulators and then compete all over.
Plus a big part of the marketability of health insurance (as it exists now) is the breadth of the insurer's network of providers. That is a tough area for out-of-staters to compete in.
But either way, it's no silver bullet.
| 62 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:39:29am |
Why does the President have to keep explaining mandates and exchanges to the Republicans?
Do they really not get how this works?
and honesty from the President.
Sometimes you just have to change your mind about things when faced with reality.
| 64 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:41:01am |
re: #57 recusancy
What's to stop them from all going to one state and buying up the legislature there ie. the credit card industry?
Nothing. You predicted exactly what will happen. They'll pick some low population state with politicians that are cheap to influence and make it their new haven.
| 65 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:41:11am |
re: #55 lawhawk
If a policy is acceptable to state insurance authorities in state X and costs $100 a month, but you are in state Y where the minimum coverage will cost $500, there is more than a little amount of logic to it. It adds to competition to keep the costs down, and it would allow consumers buy policies that they feel they need, instead of those that are mandated that include services that they may never want or need.
That's sort of the downside as well. Unless you regulate it then every insurance company will set up shop in whatever State allows them to sell the cheapest, least effective insurance to people who are too dumb to realize what a mistake they've made till they try to collect.
Or in Monty Python Terms....
There are probably people stupid/foolish/confused enough that they would buy the reverend's insurance plan...
| 66 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:41:27am |
re: #62 webevintage
Why does the President have to keep explaining mandates and exchanges to the Republicans?
Do they really not get how this works?and honesty from the President.
Sometimes you just have to change your mind about things when faced with reality.
Everybody in that room already knows how it works and the logic behind it. This is more of a show to publicly embarrass the Republicans. I think it's a very smart political move.
| 67 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:41:30am |
re: #63 cliffster
I lied in my campaign. But that's... ok
I said one thing in my campaign but once I became President I was faced with reality and had to change my views.
My bad, I'm a human being that has to govern in the real world.
| 68 |
avanti Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:41:51am |
re: #63 cliffster
I lied in my campaign. But that's... ok
Because he looked at a issue more closely and changed his mind ?
| 69 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:42:02am |
| 70 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:42:12am |
re: #60 lawhawk
Public option provides "competition" that has government backing and financing that enables them to undercut the private insurers. The government policy could take loses and simply raise tax revenues to cover the difference, while an insurer would be limited in how much they could raise premiums, hitting them from both ends. It's not exactly competition on a level playing field.
But if it's competition we want, why not let states open up insurance to those policies already acceptable in other states.
What about a government option that's started with government seed money, but if it can't find a way to break even after a certain period of time then we let it cease to exist?
| 71 |
brennant Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:42:14am |
re: #67 webevintage
Ah yes Presidents never change their mind once in office...
| 72 |
torrentprime Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:42:15am |
re: #60 lawhawk
Public option provides "competition" that has government backing and financing that enables them to undercut the private insurers. The government policy could take loses and simply raise tax revenues to cover the difference, while an insurer would be limited in how much they could raise premiums, hitting them from both ends. It's not exactly competition on a level playing field.
But if it's competition we want, why not let states open up insurance to those policies already acceptable in other states.
I think some of that tension can be resolved by deciding whether the primary goal here is the preservation of a low-risk market for large businesses or the improved health of the American people.
| 73 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:42:39am |
| 75 |
brennant Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:43:22am |
Ok... I just have a tough time listening to Biden. I want to, but just have a tough time.
| 76 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:43:22am |
| 77 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:43:30am |
re: #37 Diego
I'm in the UK at the moment and heath care is fully covered by sales tax. I like it a lot. I've never had to wait for anything and everything is covered.
I know most of you will think this is evil, but it's not.
I had great luck with the NHS myself.
| 79 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:43:49am |
re: #74 recusancy
Who invited Biden?
Joe the B comes and goes as he pleases...he doesn't have much else to do
| 80 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:44:09am |
re: #75 brennant
Try to look on the bright side. At least it's not Pelosi speaking again.
| 81 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:44:25am |
Yes, Biden, compare Health Care to Social Security. Let's talk about Social Security a lot.
| 82 |
Ojoe Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:44:34am |
Down with both major political parties.
Pffiibbittth. ™
| 83 |
MandyManners Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:44:39am |
| 85 |
torrentprime Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:45:15am |
| 86 |
ShaunP Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:45:42am |
re: #79 albusteve
Joe the B comes and goes as he pleases...he doesn't have much else to do
As it should be for every VP...
| 87 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:45:42am |
re: #83 MandyManners
Hush. You're not supposed to say that.
Hah. Yes, it's a mass downdinging of any comment that dare be critical of Obama.
| 88 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:45:43am |
re: #83 MandyManners
Hush. You're not supposed to say that.
Except it is not a lie.
Saying it is a lie is bullshit...
| 89 |
MandyManners Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:45:59am |
| 90 |
avanti Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:46:03am |
| 91 |
subsailor68 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:46:11am |
re: #70 jamesfirecat
What about a government option that's started with government seed money, but if it can't find a way to break even after a certain period of time then we let it cease to exist?
Hi jamesfirecat. Interesting idea, but historically it has proved difficult, if not impossible, to end programs on which people have become dependent or find popular - even if (as in Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid) the program runs into severe financial difficulty.
I suppose you could "sunset" the initial legislation, but it may still be political suicide to fail to extend the program when the sunset date nears.
| 92 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:46:28am |
I lied in my campaign. But that's... ok
Read. My. Lips!
| 93 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:46:36am |
| 94 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:46:38am |
re: #90 avanti
Just got my check, glad I'm covered.
I'm glad too. Sucks we're going bankrupt though.
| 95 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:47:01am |
re: #87 cliffster
Hah. Yes, it's a mass downdinging of any comment that dare be critical of Obama.
No, you got a downdig from me for inferring that the President lied when that is not the truth or even grounded in reality.
| 96 |
MandyManners Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:47:31am |
re: #87 cliffster
Hah. Yes, it's a mass downdinging of any comment that dare be critical of Obama.
Watch out! You're gonna' get called a "racist" soon.
| 97 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:47:59am |
re: #91 subsailor68
Hi jamesfirecat. Interesting idea, but historically it has proved difficult, if not impossible, to end programs on which people have become dependent or find popular - even if (as in Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid) the program runs into severe financial difficulty.
I suppose you could "sunset" the initial legislation, but it may still be political suicide to fail to extend the program when the sunset date nears.
Find some people out there willing to start a non profit competitive healthcare company.
Give them government seed money to start.
Sit back, watch and see what happens....
I'm probably over simplifying it, but still....
| 98 |
brennant Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:48:05am |
| 99 |
avanti Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:48:29am |
re: #83 MandyManners
Hush. You're not supposed to say that.
So you are saying if the POTUS learns he was wrong on a issue, he should stick with the wrong decision and never admit to a mistake.
| 100 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:48:32am |
| 101 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:48:49am |
re: #89 MandyManners
Mighty big leap.
Similar to the one comparing insurance mandates to totalitarianism.
| 102 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:48:55am |
re: #99 avanti
So you are saying if the POTUS learns he was wrong on a issue, he should stick with the wrong decision and never admit to a mistake.
Yes.
/Bush.
:evilgrin:
| 103 |
Ojoe Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:49:08am |
re: #96 MandyManners
It is not possible to make racist comments about Obama because he is exactly half black and half white.
| 104 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:49:11am |
re: #99 avanti
So you are saying if the POTUS learns he was wrong on a issue, he should stick with the wrong decision and never admit to a mistake.
like the Surge?...why not?
| 105 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:49:34am |
re: #99 avanti
So you are saying if the POTUS learns he was wrong on a issue, he should stick with the wrong decision and never admit to a mistake.
It worked for Bush...
/
| 106 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:50:24am |
re: #103 Ojoe
It is not possible to make racist comments about Obama because he is exactly half black and half white.
I got bored pointing that out....supposedly he is whatever he says he is regardless of the facts
| 108 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:50:33am |
re: #103 Ojoe
It is not possible to make racist comments about Obama because he is exactly half black and half white.
huh?
| 109 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:50:51am |
re: #70 jamesfirecat
What about a government option that's started with government seed money, but if it can't find a way to break even after a certain period of time then we let it cease to exist?
The logic of a public option is that if you mandate it to perform on a break-even basis it would compete pretty fairly with private carriers. It would have minimal marketing costs (and not pay income tax) so that would be an advantage. But it would be less efficient in other ways (civil service) and be a late arrival regarding service networks and the like.
But it is fair to speculate that should it perform poorly, Congress would waive or otherwise finesse the "break-even basis" concept, and allow it to continue even if it lost money.
| 110 |
avanti Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:50:53am |
re: #105 webevintage
It worked for Bush...
/
One big disagreement I had with him is he did not admit to even one.
| 111 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:51:16am |
re: #99 avanti
So you are saying if the POTUS learns he was wrong on a issue, he should stick with the wrong decision and never admit to a mistake.
You see someone learning from their mistakes, I see someone who said whatever he needed to say to win the primary, then say whatever he needed to say to win the general, and now say whatever he needs to say to pass his pet agenda. We disagree on our perception. If you want to hate me for that, hate away...
| 112 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:51:16am |
I appreciate that Biden spent a moment to talk about cost. Truly.
| 114 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:51:21am |
re: #101 drcordell
Similar to the one comparing insurance mandates to totalitarianism.
How poor am I going to have to be to get free health coverage from the government? Because the way things have gone for me during the last 5 years, it's getting down to bare minimum here.
| 115 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:51:32am |
re: #103 Ojoe
It is not possible to make racist comments about Obama because he is exactly half black and half white.
That was racist.
| 116 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:51:56am |
re: #107 Killgore Trout
Do I hear marching band music?
Yes. Pomp and circumstance abounds daily at the white house.
| 117 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:51:59am |
| 118 |
brennant Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:52:03am |
re: #107 Killgore Trout
What is with that? I am digging the extra patriotism.
| 120 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:52:12am |
re: #37 Diego
I'm in the UK at the moment and heath care is fully covered by sales tax. I like it a lot. I've never had to wait for anything and everything is covered.
I know most of you will think this is evil, but it's not.
And they pay you for not working!
Sweet.
| 121 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:52:20am |
You know, I find all this harping that Obama lied rather...amusing. Where the hell have ya been, since, forever? Shocka, Breaking News, Politicians Stretch the Truth and Outright Lie at 11PM.
ROFL
XD
| 122 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:52:36am |
Could we drop the obsession with race and racism around here today? It's not relevant to the healthcare issue.
| 123 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:53:08am |
re: #117 Silvergirl
Ok, I was worried that it was in my head.
| 125 |
torrentprime Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:53:19am |
re: #96 MandyManners
Watch out! You're gonna' get called a "racist" soon.
After all, look how often it's happened on this board!
(Oh wait, that was just conservative victimology prophecying again. :) )
| 126 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:53:54am |
re: #60 lawhawk
Public option provides "competition" that has government backing and financing that enables them to undercut the private insurers. The government policy could take loses and simply raise tax revenues to cover the difference, while an insurer would be limited in how much they could raise premiums, hitting them from both ends. It's not exactly competition on a level playing field.
But if it's competition we want, why not let states open up insurance to those policies already acceptable in other states.
The gov policy would not take losses. You would have to pay premiums just like other health insurance. If they take a loss they would adjust premiums accordingly. It would be run just like a private company only with a lower overhead, no profit taking, and a larger risk pool which would lower costs.
| 127 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:54:55am |
re: #113 Ojoe
That was more of a boggle from me than any sort of real non-understanding.
Given the history of racial-based laws in the United States (and other countries) where your status was based upon the *purity* of your ancestry that statement came across as profoundly understated and/or ignorant.
Plus, from my viewpoint most racist statements are much more of an indicator about the character and associations of the person making the statement than the person being targeted.
| 128 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:55:10am |
re: #114 Walter L. Newton
How poor am I going to have to be to get free health coverage from the government? Because the way things have gone for me during the last 5 years, it's getting down to bare minimum here.
totally broke (on paper)...I did it
| 129 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:55:27am |
re: #126 recusancy
The gov policy would not take losses. You would have to pay premiums just like other health insurance. If they take a loss they would adjust premiums accordingly. It would be run just like a private company only with a lower overhead, no profit taking, and a larger risk pool which would lower costs.
What if you couldn't afford premiums, really?
| 130 |
subsailor68 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:55:50am |
re: #97 jamesfirecat
Find some people out there willing to start a non profit competitive healthcare company.
Give them government seed money to start.
Sit back, watch and see what happens...
I'm probably over simplifying it, but still...
No, it's a fair observation. Again, though, if that non-profit company ran into trouble, and had a large "customer" base in place, the political pressure to continue funding it would probably be very high.
| 131 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:56:05am |
re: #103 Ojoe
It is not possible to make racist comments about Obama because he is exactly half black and half white.
This is simply untrue. I don't need to say why, do I?
| 132 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:56:11am |
re: #125 torrentprime
After all, look how often it's happened on this board!
(Oh wait, that was just conservative victimology prophecying again. :) )
I was called a racist because I was interested in BOs college records...shit happens
| 133 |
avanti Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:56:12am |
re: #111 cliffster
You see someone learning from their mistakes, I see someone who said whatever he needed to say to win the primary, then say whatever he needed to say to win the general, and now say whatever he needs to say to pass his pet agenda. We disagree on our perception. If you want to hate me for that, hate away...
No one will hate you for a opinion, but I like the fact the POTUS listens and learns, even if that means he changes a opinion. On mandates, I feel he was convinced that you could not have a good bill without them. The healthy would not get insurance, then when they got sick, we'd pay in the emergency room. By not having the healthy in the pool, the costs would go through the room.
| 134 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:56:23am |
re: #126 recusancy
The gov policy would not take losses. You would have to pay premiums just like other health insurance. If they take a loss they would adjust premiums accordingly. It would be run just like a private company only with a lower overhead, no profit taking, and a larger risk pool which would lower costs.
There's a leap of faith there, though. Congress has not been good about the "if they take a loss they increase premiums" thing, as premium calculations become politicized and interest groups lobby for particular outcomes.
| 136 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:56:52am |
Guberment takeover of health care!
Guberment takeover of health care!
Guberment takeover of health care!
DOOMED! DOOMED I SAY! TEH FEARS!
| 137 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:57:08am |
Jesus Ryan, it is not a take over of health care.
You can say it as many times as you like, but that does not make it so.
| 139 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:57:09am |
re: #129 Walter L. Newton
What if you couldn't afford premiums, really?
There would be subsidies for low income levels.
| 140 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:57:52am |
re: #132 albusteve
I was called a racist because I was interested in BOs college records...shit happens
No. You called him the most mysterious president we've ever had.
| 141 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:58:19am |
re: #139 recusancy
Which leads back into the question of who's pocket the money to pay for the subsidies is going to come out of.
| 142 |
Ojoe Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:58:31am |
re: #131 Silvergirl
It is true. He's neither which equals just a human being, like everybody else. It is one of the lessons lost on many in this country.
| 143 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:58:34am |
re: #129 Walter L. Newton
What if you couldn't afford premiums, really?
Then you get a subsidy to pay for it.
| 144 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:59:18am |
re: #129 Walter L. Newton
What if you couldn't afford premiums, really?
I'm insured through the UNM Hospital program...they came to me and loaded me into the system and were quite happy to have me....then they got pounded for a 100k, and I was responsible for just a couple of grand, and they don't even ask for the money....sweet
| 145 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:59:29am |
re: #4 webevintage
Oh, this is interesting.
The feed is on The Sunlight Foundation and they have a list of each speakers largest donors up as they speak.
[Link: sunlightfoundation.com...]
That's cool.
| 146 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:59:30am |
re: #134 garhighway
There's a leap of faith there, though. Congress has not been good about the "if they take a loss they increase premiums" thing, as premium calculations become politicized and interest groups lobby for particular outcomes.
It wouldn't be micromanaged by congress. Once a bill passed an agency would be set up to administer it under the guidelines mandated in the bill. One of those guidelines would be to adjust premiums to match revenue.
| 147 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:59:38am |
re: #143 webevintage
Then you get a subsidy to pay for it.
Does this subsidy pay for all or just some? In my case, I have almost none to spare.
| 148 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:00:16pm |
re: #146 recusancy
It wouldn't be micromanaged by congress. Once a bill passed an agency would be set up to administer it under the guidelines mandated in the bill. One of those guidelines would be to adjust premiums to match revenue.
What Congress passes, Congress can amend.
| 149 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:00:20pm |
re: #141 oaktree
Which leads back into the question of who's pocket the money to pay for the subsidies is going to come out of.
Yeah. Then I assume your also against medicare and social security. Those are subsidies too.
| 151 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:00:54pm |
re: #147 Varek Raith
Does this subsidy pay for all or just some? In my case, I have almost none to spare.
Do you have insurance now?
| 152 |
avanti Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:01:15pm |
re: #132 albusteve
I was called a racist because I was interested in BOs college records...shit happens
More question have been asked about this POTUS's records of birth, kindergarten through college than any POTUS in history, but I don't know why.
| 153 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:01:18pm |
| 154 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:01:19pm |
re: #140 recusancy
No. You called him the most mysterious president we've ever had.
I did...the incident I'm referring to was way before that....needless to say I was surprised, coming from a very prominent and enlightened poster...no big deal....jus sayin
| 156 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:01:54pm |
re: #149 recusancy
Yeah. Then I assume your also against medicare and social security. Those are subsidies too.
One can tolerate the existing entitlements and not want to create more.
| 157 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:01:57pm |
Heh...McCain says, "Why would we cut out 800,000 people in Florida?" and the president says, "Good point." He looked disappointed to have the president validate him so quickly.
| 158 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:02:05pm |
re: #141 oaktree
Which leads back into the question of who's pocket the money to pay for the subsidies is going to come out of.
yours....it's no mystery....in the end it all comes out of your pocket
| 160 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:02:35pm |
re: #149 recusancy
Not necessarily. The question is really whether or not the well can handle another bucket dipping into it without proper controls about who and what gets priority for the water and whether the rate of water removal is sustainable.
| 161 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:02:57pm |
re: #129 Walter L. Newton
What if you couldn't afford premiums, really?
If you can't afford premiums I would imagine you can qualify for Medicaid. Where it gets tricky is when you're making too much money for Medicaid but not enough money for insurance.
| 162 |
avanti Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:03:07pm |
re: #155 brennant
McCain - you are shut down.
Obama just said he had a good point. Sadly, the POTUS does not control all the deals made to pass a bill.
| 163 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:03:12pm |
| 164 |
torrentprime Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:03:18pm |
re: #158 albusteve
yours...it's no mystery...in the end it all comes out of your pocket
Just like the expensive and inefficient ER treatment for the uninsured.
| 165 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:03:20pm |
| 166 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:03:21pm |
| 167 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:03:40pm |
re: #157 darthstar
Heh...McCain says, "Why would we cut out 800,000 people in Florida?" and the president says, "Good point." He looked disappointed to have the president validate him so quickly.
I loved that! It plays more to the idea that Obama's being reasonable and the Repubs are just whining.
| 168 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:04:18pm |
re: #152 avanti
More question have been asked about this POTUS's records of birth, kindergarten through college than any POTUS in history, but I don't know why.
it's just human nature to be curious...I don't give a shit about his birth or his race, or his age or his tastes
| 169 |
lawhawk Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:04:28pm |
re: #126 recusancy
It would be run just like a private company only with a lower overhead, no profit taking, and a larger risk pool which would lower costs.
Lower overhead? How can you even make that supposition when any government program that provides health care, whether it's the VA, Medicare, Medicaid, or Indian Health Services, all have sprawling bureaucracies.
Private insurers have operated as not-for-profits, and yet they too would get squeezed by a public option. A larger risk pool doesn't necessarily lower costs but spreads the costs among a much larger group - for those who have no choice but to buy in (and that's part of the tax and penalty provisions in the House and Senate versions), it would be a huge hit that might be mitigated by further credits and deductions for health care expenditures if they meet threshold levels for those credits/deductions.
| 170 |
brennant Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:04:29pm |
re: #162 avanti
McCain deserved it. He thought he could stick it to the President, and got shot down.
| 171 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:05:16pm |
re: #157 darthstar
Heh...McCain says, "Why would we cut out 800,000 people in Florida?" and the president says, "Good point." He looked disappointed to have the president validate him so quickly.
deal 'em out!....everybody is in
| 172 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:05:19pm |
re: #153 Varek Raith
Negative.
First here is an interesting tool from Kaiser that lets you play around with
each bill and see what kind of subsidy you would get.
[Link: healthreform.kff.org...]
| 173 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:05:21pm |
Notice that the Democrats address their Republican colleagues directly, while the Republicans only address the President.
| 174 |
avanti Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:05:39pm |
re: #168 albusteve
it's just human nature to be curious...I don't give a shit about his birth or his race, or his age or his tastes
For reasons unknown to me, some seem more curious about this one then in the past.
| 175 |
lawhawk Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:05:43pm |
re: #161 drcordell
Indeed - and the costs are not uniform across the nation either- health care costs in NYC are higher than pretty much anywhere else, so it would have to be indexed locally/regionally.
| 176 |
Varek Raith Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:06:28pm |
re: #172 webevintage
First here is an interesting tool from Kaiser that lets you play around with
each bill and see what kind of subsidy you would get.[Link: healthreform.kff.org...]
Neat, thanks.
:)
| 177 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:06:30pm |
re: #170 brennant
McCain deserved it. He thought he could stick it to the President, and got shot down.
You'd think after his getting PWN3D this morning when he was reminded that the 2008 elections are over that he'd try being more reasonable...you'd think, anyway.
| 178 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:06:31pm |
re: #158 albusteve
yours...it's no mystery...in the end it all comes out of your pocket
There's not enough money in everyone's pocket to pay for it all. That shouldn't be a mystery but it is.
| 179 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:06:54pm |
re: #169 lawhawk
Lower overhead? How can you even make that supposition when any government program that provides health care, whether it's the VA, Medicare, Medicaid, or Indian Health Services, all have sprawling bureaucracies.
Medicare's overhead is around 4%. Private insurance is around 18%.
It is what it is.
| 180 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:07:25pm |
re: #164 torrentprime
Just like the expensive and inefficient ER treatment for the uninsured.
yup, but generally the treatment itself is excellent, in my experience as a RN, RT and patient....thank goodness for that, but it is unsustainable for sure
| 181 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:07:35pm |
re: #158 albusteve
yours...it's no mystery...in the end it all comes out of your pocket
At the end of the day it's already coming out of your pocket. Since we as a country have decided that we won't let anyone die in the gutter because they cannot pay for medical care.
When someone walks into the ER deathly ill and has no insurance, they receive treatment anyway. When they cannot pay, the hospital ends up eating the cost themselves. And by "eating the cost" I mean raising their prices for paying customers (read: you).
So the question is, how do you want to pay for the healthcare you are already providing to those without insurance? Do you want to pay for their $7,000 ER bill when they come down with pneumonia and call 911? Or do you want to help subsidize their health insurance, so they can afford to pay for a $200 doctors office visit when their flu hasn't yet turned to pneumonia?
The choice is yours. But remember that either way the cost is being passed along to you.
| 182 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:07:55pm |
re: #174 avanti
For reasons unknown to me, some seem more curious about this one then in the past.
he wanted alot of attention and he's getting it
| 183 |
avanti Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:08:00pm |
re: #178 cliffster
There's not enough money in everyone's pocket to pay for it all. That shouldn't be a mystery but it is.
Some seem to forget that we pay for the uninsured now. Over a thousand a year according to the CBO.
| 184 |
subsailor68 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:08:09pm |
re: #149 recusancy
Yeah. Then I assume your also against medicare and social security. Those are subsidies too.
Hi recusancy! No, I don't think most folks are against those two programs, but many have noted the financial problems we're seeing and hope that we don't end up in the same situation while trying to address a real need.
I'd have to find the link, but basically, the Social Security and Medicare trustee reports from last spring both showed huge unfunded liabilities - a combined amount of around $107 trillion dollars.
I'd hope we can find a way to solve the health care problems in America while doing our best to avoid unintended consequences (a pretty hard task I agree!).
| 185 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:08:45pm |
re: #181 drcordell
At the end of the day it's already coming out of your pocket. Since we as a country have decided that we won't let anyone die in the gutter because they cannot pay for medical care.
When someone walks into the ER deathly ill and has no insurance, they receive treatment anyway. When they cannot pay, the hospital ends up eating the cost themselves. And by "eating the cost" I mean raising their prices for paying customers (read: you).
So the question is, how do you want to pay for the healthcare you are already providing to those without insurance? Do you want to pay for their $7,000 ER bill when they come down with pneumonia and call 911? Or do you want to help subsidize their health insurance, so they can afford to pay for a $200 doctors office visit when their flu hasn't yet turned to pneumonia?
The choice is yours. But remember that either way the cost is being passed along to you.
yes, I knew all that, thanks
| 186 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:08:46pm |
re: #180 albusteve
yup, but generally the treatment itself is excellent, in my experience as a RN, RT and patient...thank goodness for that, but it is unsustainable for sure
Not only that, but it does not cover on-going care. Only emergency conditions, no primary care. No meds, etc.
| 187 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:08:48pm |
re: #169 lawhawk
Lower overhead? How can you even make that supposition when any government program that provides health care, whether it's the VA, Medicare, Medicaid, or Indian Health Services, all have sprawling bureaucracies.
Private insurers have operated as not-for-profits, and yet they too would get squeezed by a public option. A larger risk pool doesn't necessarily lower costs but spreads the costs among a much larger group - for those who have no choice but to buy in (and that's part of the tax and penalty provisions in the House and Senate versions), it would be a huge hit that might be mitigated by further credits and deductions for health care expenditures if they meet threshold levels for those credits/deductions.
It could be that a public option ends up acting as the substandard carrier, taking in all of the high-risk, high cost enrollees. Certainly, that is how the private carriers would want it to happen: they would want to cherry-pick the applicant pool to achieve that. preventing that behavior (which the bill would presumably outlaw) would be a regulatory challenge.
| 188 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:08:50pm |
Paul Ryan did indeed say he didn't trust the CBO's projections. Then he tried to weasel out of it by saying he questioned "the reality of it."
Total weasel word maneuver.
| 189 |
Girth Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:08:59pm |
re: #177 darthstar
You'd think after his getting PWN3D this morning when he was reminded that the 2008 elections are over that he'd try being more reasonable...you'd think, anyway.
He's a far cry from the man I voted for in the 2000 primary. Makes me a little sad.
| 190 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:09:06pm |
re: #178 cliffster
There's not enough money in everyone's pocket to pay for it all. That shouldn't be a mystery but it is.
See #181
| 191 |
torrentprime Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:09:21pm |
re: #178 cliffster
There's not enough money in everyone's pocket to pay for it all. That shouldn't be a mystery but it is.
If by "all" you mean the current system, you're right. Good thing the proposals from the Dems reduce the federal deficit. Didn't I hear somewhere the Republicans are in favor of that sort of thing?
| 192 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:09:38pm |
re: #185 albusteve
yes, I knew all that, thanks
Excellent. But there are still plenty of people like Cliffster who haven't wrapped their heads around the concept yet.
| 193 |
torrentprime Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:09:55pm |
re: #182 albusteve
he wanted alot of attention and he's getting it
So, in other words, "she was asking for it."
| 194 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:09:57pm |
re: #188 Charles
Paul Ryan did indeed say he didn't trust the CBO's projections. Then he tried to weasel out of it by saying he questioned "the reality of it."
Total weasel word maneuver.
Becerra did well in calling him out on it. "You've used the CBO repeatedly in the past..."
| 195 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:10:31pm |
re: #178 cliffster
There's not enough money in everyone's pocket to pay for it all. That shouldn't be a mystery but it is.
print more
| 196 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:10:56pm |
re: #189 Girth
He's a far cry from the man I voted for in the 2000 primary. Makes me a little sad.
I liked McCain in 2000. I wanted the election to be between him and Gore. I still would have voted for Gore (even with Lieberman as his running mate), but the McCain 2000 was a much better version than McCain 2008-10
| 197 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:11:31pm |
re: #196 darthstar
I liked McCain in 2000. I wanted the election to be between him and Gore. I still would have voted for Gore (even with Lieberman as his running mate), but the McCain 2000 was a much better version than McCain 2008-10
I think he was really changed by what happened to him in the South Carolina primary.
| 198 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:11:59pm |
re: #192 drcordell
Excellent. But there are still plenty of people like Cliffster who haven't wrapped their heads around the concept yet.
Trust me, you have no idea.
| 199 |
abbyadams Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:12:39pm |
re: #196 darthstar
I liked McCain enough to look at him in early 2008, when we weren't sure if it was going to be BO or HRC. Once he picked his VP choice, though...fffft. That was it for me.
| 201 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:13:37pm |
re: #197 drcordell
I think he was really changed by what happened to him in the South Carolina primary.
Is it in bad taste if I make a joke comparing the shell shock a solider might suffer in Vietnam to that South Carolina Primary?
| 202 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:13:42pm |
re: #187 garhighway
It could be that a public option ends up acting as the substandard carrier, taking in all of the high-risk, high cost enrollees. Certainly, that is how the private carriers would want it to happen: they would want to cherry-pick the applicant pool to achieve that. preventing that behavior (which the bill would presumably outlaw) would be a regulatory challenge.
That's exactly what has happened now with our current system. The highest risk groups to insure are the elderly and the extremely poor. Guess who insures them? That's right, the Government. The private insurance market is already operating with the benefit of a pool that has the riskiest people removed. And yet they still use rescission and claim denials to avoid paying out claims and pad their bottom line.
| 203 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:14:05pm |
Grassley's talking...who are his donors?
Sen Chuck Grassley (R-IA)
Top Industry Donors 2010
Industry Total Indivs. PACS
Health Professionals $314166 $86600 $227566
Insurance $242798 $44250 $198548
Pharmaceuticals/Health Products $186250 $70050 $116200
Lobbyists $168946 $158446 $10500
Hospitals/Nursing Homes $163937 $70137 $93800
| 204 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:14:09pm |
re: #193 torrentprime
So, in other words, "she was asking for it."
I think he has handled the scrutiny well, I mean he doesn't have to address lunatics, but it's a quirky situation...but again I care more about policy
| 206 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:14:40pm |
Grassley:
I don't care what has been said about high risk pools or business organization pools, I'm gonna keep with my talking points by golly!
| 207 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:14:56pm |
Well, the way my financial life has slowly eroded over the last 5 years, if this bill does pass, I'm fixing to squeeze every penny I can out of it in regards to assuring my health.
And I won't give a shit how much it costs anyone.
| 208 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:15:01pm |
Grassley, just say NO WAY and save us the time.
| 209 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:16:09pm |
re: #198 cliffster
Trust me, you have no idea.
Not really sure what that means? I guess my question for you is, what do you propose?
It seems you don't think you should be paying for healthcare for those who can't afford it. Would you support making it legal for hospitals to deny care for patients that lack the ability to pay? Because unless you are willing to do that, then simply stating "we don't have enough money to pay for everyone's healthcare" is a completely un-serious argument.
| 210 |
torrentprime Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:17:36pm |
re: #209 drcordell
Not really sure what that means? I guess my question for you is, what do you propose?
I can't speak for cliffster, but I took it as an acknowledgment that we're all having to make some massive mental shifts as we go through this debate.
| 211 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:17:42pm |
re: #207 Walter L. Newton
Well, the way my financial life has slowly eroded over the last 5 years, if this bill does pass, I'm fixing to squeeze every penny I can out of it in regards to assuring my health.
And I won't give a shit how much it costs anyone.
you have no choice bro...you will do what you have to do and I for one will back you up...it's the principle as well, you give so much and when you need it back you deserve it....pretty simple imo
| 212 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:17:49pm |
Grassley: for the first time in 200 years the United States government is going to tell people they have to buy something!
You are so totally full of shit it's no wonder you grew up on a farm..
| 213 |
RogueOne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:17:51pm |
re: #203 darthstar
Grassley's talking...who are his donors?
Sen Chuck Grassley (R-IA)
Top Industry Donors 2010
Industry Total Indivs. PACS
Health Professionals $314166 $86600 $227566
Insurance $242798 $44250 $198548
Pharmaceuticals/Health Products $186250 $70050 $116200
Lobbyists $168946 $158446 $10500
Hospitals/Nursing Homes $163937 $70137 $93800
You might want to be careful when you start throwing "money-mud" around.
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]
Health care special-interest groups may not have a direct seat at the table at Thursday's bipartisan health care reform summit, but they will hardly be unrepresented. A government watchdog organization points out that since 2005, health care interests have contributed nearly $28 million in campaign donations to the 21 members of the House and Senate invited to attend, and the summit's host, President Obama, received over $18.6 million from them during the 2008 campaign.
In addition, you might want to look at who was throwing money around like mad trying to get Coakley elected over brown. Just saying.
BTW, I'm blaming you for this POS droid I picked up.//
| 214 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:17:59pm |
re: #209 drcordell
Not really sure what that means? I guess my question for you is, what do you propose?
It seems you don't think you should be paying for healthcare for those who can't afford it. Would you support making it legal for hospitals to deny care for patients that lack the ability to pay? Because unless you are willing to do that, then simply stating "we don't have enough money to pay for everyone's healthcare" is a completely un-serious argument.
We understand that you've got some nasty internal bleeding, but we really do need to make sure you'll be able to pay to cover it before we can patch you up....
Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow after all?
| 215 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:18:01pm |
re: #207 Walter L. Newton
Well, the way my financial life has slowly eroded over the last 5 years, if this bill does pass, I'm fixing to squeeze every penny I can out of it in regards to assuring my health.
And I won't give a shit how much it costs anyone.
It'll cost us a lot less to take care of your ass than it would if this bill didn't pass and you got sick.
| 216 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:18:13pm |
Yes, Mr President, its true that entitlements will not be managed, and it's also true that we're in big trouble.
| 217 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:19:21pm |
re: #215 darthstar
It'll cost us a lot less to take care of your ass than it would if this bill didn't pass and you got sick.
You don't worry about my ass... ok? Take care of your own fucking ass.
| 218 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:19:23pm |
| 219 |
oldegeezr Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:19:42pm |
How sweet it is…
el Rushbo, the large titular leader of the GOP, capitulated today...
“…that’s where this is going, reconciliation Monday!”
Thank you Democrats, thank you Harry Reid!
Hoooaah...olde soldier sends!
| 220 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:19:56pm |
re: #188 Charles
Paul Ryan did indeed say he didn't trust the CBO's projections. Then he tried to weasel out of it by saying he questioned "the reality of it."
Total weasel word maneuver.
"Audit the CBO." --Ron Paul
| 221 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:20:02pm |
re: #213 RogueOne
In addition, you might want to look at who was throwing money around like mad trying to get Coakley elected over brown. Just saying.
BTW, I'm blaming you for this POS droid I picked up.//
Cool! You got the Droid! Just give it a couple of days...it'll grow on you.
Yes, President Obama accepted money too. But at least he's working toward improving Health Care for all Americans. The Republicans at the table are merely trying to protect the status quo.
| 222 |
RogueOne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:20:08pm |
The CBO numbers are crap. The savings are based on the reduction in payments to Doctors for medicare/medicaid when we all know those reductions are never going to happen.
| 223 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:20:12pm |
re: #217 Walter L. Newton
You don't worry about my ass... ok? Take care of your own fucking ass.
Aye? Independently wealthy then?
| 224 |
Vambo Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:20:26pm |
re: #87 cliffster
Hah. Yes, it's a mass downdinging of any comment that dare be critical of Obama.
if that's what you want, here it is!
| 225 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:20:50pm |
| 226 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:20:54pm |
re: #223 Diego
Aye? Independently wealthy then?
Before you shoot off your mouth, how about reading what I wrote up thread.
| 227 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:20:54pm |
re: #213 RogueOne
In addition, you might want to look at who was throwing money around like mad trying to get Coakley elected over brown. Just saying.
BTW, I'm blaming you for this POS droid I picked up.//
It's true Obama did take $18 million from the healthcare industry. But none of it was from PAC's. And that $18 million as a percentage of what he received from individual small donors is relatively low compared to the Honorable Senator Grassley.
| 228 |
RogueOne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:21:02pm |
re: #221 darthstar
Cool! You got the Droid! Just give it a couple of days...it'll grow on you.
Yes, President Obama accepted money too. But at least he's working toward improving Health Care for all Americans. The Republicans at the table are merely trying to protect the status quo.
You could say that, or you could say he's trying to give them their $20 million dollars worth./
| 229 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:21:06pm |
re: #217 Walter L. Newton
You don't worry about my ass... ok? Take care of your own fucking ass.
You're so cute when you're feisty. Keep it up.
| 230 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:21:09pm |
| 231 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:21:21pm |
re: #209 drcordell
Not really sure what that means?
you frequently imply that my intellect falls short of your expectation. Fine by me, I find it comical.
| 232 |
RogueOne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:22:17pm |
re: #227 drcordell
I always ask myself what's worse, ODS sufferers or apologists. I'm having a hard time deciding.
| 233 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:22:23pm |
re: #229 darthstar
You're so cute when you're feisty. Keep it up.
And stop up dinging me when I am trying to insult you.
| 234 |
subsailor68 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:22:44pm |
CBO scoring can be a good indicator, but we do need to remember that CBO can only score that which has been presented to it. For example, if a health reform proposal is presented for costing, but Medicare reimbursement to doc's is not in that proposal, but in a different piece of legislation, the numbers for the health reform proposal may look fine, but only because the reimbursement dollars were not included in the proposal submitted for costing.
| 235 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:23:00pm |
re: #231 cliffster
you frequently imply that my intellect falls short of your expectation. Fine by me, I find it comical.
Where did I imply that? If anything I was implying that your comment was over my head.
What I will imply is that you are completely skirting the substance of the issue to engage in a petty tit-for-tat. Do you think that it should be legal for hospitals to deny care for those who can't afford it? And if not, then how should we pay for the treatment of those who we can't turn away because they are too poor to pay?
| 236 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:23:14pm |
re: #233 Walter L. Newton
And stop up dinging me when I am trying to insult you.
Indeed. I pioneered that technique. It's mine.
| 237 |
sagehen Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:23:29pm |
re: #60 lawhawk
Public option provides "competition" that has government backing and financing that enables them to undercut the private insurers. The government policy could take loses and simply raise tax revenues to cover the difference, while an insurer would be limited in how much they could raise premiums, hitting them from both ends. It's not exactly competition on a level playing field.
That would be awful.
Just like all those partially-taxpayer-subsidized public universities have driven the Ivy League out of the business. And ever since NYC got those tax-assisted subways, nobody drives their own cars or uses cabs anymore.
| 238 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:23:31pm |
re: #233 Walter L. Newton
And stop up dinging me when I am trying to insult you.
Oops I did it again!
| 239 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:23:38pm |
re: #202 drcordell
That's exactly what has happened now with our current system. The highest risk groups to insure are the elderly and the extremely poor. Guess who insures them? That's right, the Government. The private insurance market is already operating with the benefit of a pool that has the riskiest people removed. And yet they still use rescission and claim denials to avoid paying out claims and pad their bottom line.
I agree. I don't have the answer. But I think the public option has problems that are difficult to fix.
| 240 |
SpaceJesus Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:23:41pm |
Utah is trying to make it so that women can be charged with homicide if they have a miscarriage and it appears to have been an intentional miscarriage (ie not wearing a seatbelt, having an abusive partner, or "falling down the stairs").
hello darkages
[Link: www.sltrib.com...]
| 241 |
Yashmak Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:24:07pm |
re: #10 jamesfirecat
We'd like to show you more but frankly it would interfere with the preconceived narrative we're trying to uphold!
Of course, MSNBC has also cut away to other programming (Olympics).
| 242 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:24:11pm |
there is more than enough wasted tax money gone up in smoke via the federal govt to pay for everybodys medical care...the sprawling govt doesn't even have a clue...they just continue to tax...I would bet that scores or even hundreds of billions just go down the drain through stupidity or over indulgence....the feds don't fool me...the govt is WAY to big and cumbersome and we continue to feed the beast because it's the law...and they wrote the law
| 243 |
RogueOne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:24:22pm |
re: #221 darthstar
Cool! You got the Droid! Just give it a couple of days...it'll grow on you.
It's taken all day to get my email and contacts set up and I'm still not sure my email is actually working correctly. The droid only pushes gmail so I'm tempted to try forwarding all my corporate email to my gmail acct to see if it comes through any faster.
| 244 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:24:55pm |
Sign of the end times: SpaceJesus is only 54 dings away from positive karma.
| 246 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:25:49pm |
re: #222 RogueOne
The CBO numbers are crap. The savings are based on the reduction in payments to Doctors for medicare/medicaid when we all know those reductions are never going to happen.
the CBO works for congress...they can say or make up whatever they want....they are the feds
| 247 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:26:01pm |
Boehner:
Thank you Mr. president for addressing my table concerns.
And look, my tan is awesome and so orange.
| 248 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:26:19pm |
re: #246 albusteve
the CBO works for congress...they can say or make up whatever they want...they are the feds
"Audit the feds." --Ron Paul
| 249 |
RogueOne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:26:23pm |
re: #240 SpaceJesus
Utah is trying to make it so that women can be charged with homicide if they have a miscarriage and it appears to have been an intentional miscarriage (ie not wearing a seatbelt, having an abusive partner, or "falling down the stairs").
hello darkages
[Link: www.sltrib.com...]
Where have you been? Utah isn't the only place, we talked about this last week about a woman who was arrested in Iowa.
| 250 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:26:25pm |
Boehner's up...he's definitely rehearsed for the cameras. "Thank you, thank you Mr. President. I'm listening. I listen a lot. Americans want us to scrap this bill."
Boehner's so full of shit. Opening with a positive and then lying about the number of calls he's received to kill the bill. His office has had so many people call saying that they want HCR that they actually hang up on people now.
| 251 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:26:43pm |
re: #246 albusteve
the CBO works for congress...they can say or make up whatever they want...they are the feds
Mr Fox, could you please look over this henhouse?
| 252 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:27:03pm |
re: #232 RogueOne
I always ask myself what's worse, ODS sufferers or apologists. I'm having a hard time deciding.
So I'm an apologist now for pointing out facts? What would you have Obama do... reject donations from anyone who works in the healthcare industry? He outright rejected corporate PAC cash. What else can he do?
I'll rip on Obama for plenty of reasons. His handling of Afghanistan, continuation of Bush spying policies, failure to close Gitmo, his absurd insistence on "bipartisanship", his abandonment of the public option. The list goes on. But taking money from individual donors and rejecting corporate PAC cash isn't one of them.
| 254 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:27:35pm |
re: #211 albusteve
you have no choice bro...you will do what you have to do and I for one will back you up...it's the principle as well, you give so much and when you need it back you deserve it...pretty simple imo
I don't think some people here understand what I am saying. I'm not asking for help. I'm not thanking anyone for help. If my financial situation keeps heading for the tank like it has been for the last 5 years, I'm going to...
Take everything I can from the government, which means from you, from every other citizen, and I won't give a damn what it cost, who it costs or if anyone can afford it.
Once I stoop to the level of the public dole, I'm going full fledge hanging my hat on the public handout. The left wants to give it to me, the left wants me to have it, they are so worried about me, well, I'm going to make them so fucking happy that they will be lining up at my door to keep me satisfied.
Happy days are here again.
| 255 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:27:47pm |
| 256 |
Yashmak Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:28:04pm |
re: #250 darthstar
Opening with a positive and then lying about the number of calls he's received to kill the bill. His office has had so many people call saying that they want HCR that they actually hang up on people now.
How can you know how many calls he's had either way?
| 257 |
SpaceJesus Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:28:06pm |
re: #244 Cato the Elder
Sign of the end times: SpaceJesus is only 54 dings away from positive karma.
as long as i can play the "take away all the rights of white southerners" comedy card, i think i can stay in the red.
| 258 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:28:27pm |
re: #253 RogueOne
Nice tan too.
He's fucking orange! He looks like DailyKos wallpaper.
Oh, and his biggest donor (number dump coming)...Insurance:
Rep John Boehner (R-OH)
Top Career Industry Donors
Industry Total
Insurance $939276
Securities & Investment $717736
Misc Manufacturing & Distributing $657116
Commercial Banks $527319
Health Professionals $508886
Retired $484184
Real Estate $463648
Electric Utilities $418530
Lawyers/Law Firms $412841
Pharmaceuticals/Health Products $385480
| 259 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:28:49pm |
| 260 |
SpaceJesus Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:28:54pm |
re: #249 RogueOne
Where have you been? Utah isn't the only place, we talked about this last week about a woman who was arrested in Iowa.
the difference is that this law applies to women throughout their entire pregnancy. the iowa one only applied to third trimesters i believe
| 261 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:29:13pm |
Umpa Lumpa: it's going to drive up the cost of employment!
What a dumbass..
And now on to abortions..
| 262 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:29:14pm |
re: #247 webevintage
Boehner:
Thank you Mr. president for addressing my table concerns.
And look, my tan is awesome and so orange.
shoot that was supposed to say "Not so orange"...
OH NOEZ, HEALTH CARE REFORM IZ DANGEROUS.
AN TAX CUTS, ALWAYS TAX CUTS.
OH NOEZ U R MAKIN ME SAD WIF MANDATEZ AN EXCHANGEZ.
abortion and I bet deathpanel camps are next.
No John, you can stop now.
| 263 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:29:23pm |
re: #255 albusteve
audit the hell out of everyone!...audit mania!
Be careful what you wish for, Steve. I expect to find you not in jail when I come to take refuge at the bunkhouse.
| 264 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:29:27pm |
re: #255 albusteve
audit the hell out of everyone!...audit mania!
Except me...bastards audited me and I've still got a couple grand to pay to the state of California.
| 265 |
Yashmak Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:30:01pm |
| 266 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:30:11pm |
re: #254 Walter L. Newton
Yes. We are "so worried about you" that we don't think you deserve to die because you can't afford exorbitantly priced healthcare. Why is this offensive to you?
| 267 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:30:15pm |
| 268 |
Girth Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:30:18pm |
You know for awhile there it almost seemed like some reasonable discussion was going on, then Boehner opens his mouth.
| 269 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:30:31pm |
President Obama is being very patient with Boehner.
| 271 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:30:48pm |
Why the hell can't we just do what I want?
Seriously Mr. President.
Why you always harshing my buzz?
| 272 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:30:52pm |
| 273 |
RogueOne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:31:21pm |
re: #252 drcordell
So I'm an apologist now for pointing out facts? What would you have Obama do... reject donations from anyone who works in the healthcare industry? He outright rejected corporate PAC cash. What else can he do?
I'll rip on Obama for plenty of reasons. His handling of Afghanistan, continuation of Bush spying policies, failure to close Gitmo, his absurd insistence on "bipartisanship", his abandonment of the public option. The list goes on. But taking money from individual donors and rejecting corporate PAC cash isn't one of them.
If you want to believe that $20 mill (3x the amount given to McCain) came from ma and pa kettle, that's fine.
| 274 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:31:40pm |
re: #268 Girth
You know for awhile there it almost seemed like some reasonable discussion was going on, then Boehner opens his mouth.
Ooompa-loompa-doompa-di-doo
| 275 |
Yashmak Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:31:43pm |
re: #270 Diego
Indeed he is. he should slap his ass down.
Not if he truly wants this to be a bipartisan process. His patience is becoming.
| 276 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:31:48pm |
re: #270 Diego
Indeed he is. he should slap his ass down.
Unlike McCain, Boehner would start crying if President Obama gave him the response he deserved. McCain at least takes a beating quietly.
| 277 |
wrenchwench Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:31:55pm |
re: #240 SpaceJesus
Utah is trying to make it so that women can be charged with homicide if they have a miscarriage and it appears to have been an intentional miscarriage (ie not wearing a seatbelt, having an abusive partner, or "falling down the stairs").
hello darkages
[Link: www.sltrib.com...]
Or skiing, cycling, hiking, cleaning out the rain gutters...
| 278 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:32:14pm |
re: #276 darthstar
That wasn't meant, by the way, as an attack on McCain re: his time as a POW.
| 279 |
SpaceJesus Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:32:24pm |
when i did my internship in the senate right after undergrad, i would have to answer calls and questions from constituents all the time, and would just make stuff up as answers.
| 280 |
(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:32:50pm |
re: #270 Diego
Indeed he is. he should slap his ass down.
He did. Only very kindly. None of his points got adressed, and the point Obama made was that this was rightfully so.
| 281 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:33:00pm |
re: #277 wrenchwench
re: #240 SpaceJesus
Utah is trying to make it so that women can be charged with homicide if they have a miscarriage and it appears to have been an intentional miscarriage (ie not wearing a seatbelt, having an abusive partner, or "falling down the stairs").hello darkages
[Link: www.sltrib.com...]
Or skiing, cycling, hiking, cleaning out the rain gutters...
..having sex. After all, can't say they were doing it to get pregnant and they believe that is the ONLY reason to have sex..
| 282 |
sagehen Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:33:07pm |
re: #114 Walter L. Newton
How poor am I going to have to be to get free health coverage from the government? Because the way things have gone for me during the last 5 years, it's getting down to bare minimum here.
To be totally gov't-subsidized, you can earn up to double the poverty line. It's a sliding scale from there, with partial subsidies up to 4x the poverty line.
| 283 |
RogueOne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:33:08pm |
re: #260 SpaceJesus
the difference is that this law applies to women throughout their entire pregnancy. the iowa one only applied to third trimesters i believe
It's for the children. What do you have against kids?
| 284 |
Yashmak Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:33:09pm |
re: #279 SpaceJesus
when i did my internship in the senate right after undergrad, i would have to answer calls and questions from constituents all the time, and would just make stuff up as answers.
I wouldn't be surprised to find out that happens alot.
| 285 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:33:41pm |
re: #272 Silvergirl
Tanist.
What does his tan matter?
He's the first tanist of his sept and always up to debt. (With apologies to James Joyce.)
| 286 |
SpaceJesus Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:33:43pm |
re: #277 wrenchwench
Or skiing, cycling, hiking, cleaning out the rain gutters...
the thought of being imprisoned (maybe for life) after what must be the most traumatic experience of your life makes me sick.
| 287 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:33:52pm |
re: #272 Silvergirl
Tanist.
What does his tan matter?
If it wasn't for Boehner, the GOP would have no people of color in their ranks.
/
| 288 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:33:58pm |
re: #279 SpaceJesus
when i did my internship in the senate right after undergrad, i would have to answer calls and questions from constituents all the time, and would just make stuff up as answers.
hahaha!....bong in one hand, phone in the other, feet up
| 289 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:34:21pm |
re: #273 RogueOne
If you want to believe that $20 mill (3x the amount given to McCain) came from ma and pa kettle, that's fine.
Look it up yourself. Here are the records right here.
[Link: www.opensecrets.org...]
Individual contributions $656,357,572 88%
PAC contributions $1,830 0%
Candidate self-financing $0 0%
Federal Funds $0 0%
Other $88,626,223 12%
| 290 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:34:42pm |
re: #283 RogueOne
It's for the children. What do you have against kids?
Oh NOES think of the CHILDREN!
| 291 |
RogueOne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:34:47pm |
A "Fiscal Responsibility commission".... O.M.G., it's waaay to late for that now.
| 292 |
Girth Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:34:59pm |
re: #287 darthstar
If it wasn't for Boehner, the GOP would have no people of color in their ranks.
/
Ouch. That needed a rimshot instead of a sarc tag.
| 293 |
SpaceJesus Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:35:00pm |
re: #284 Yashmak
I wouldn't be surprised to find out that happens alot.
all the interns do it. my favorite thing to do was to make up a new definition for "cloture" every time someone would ask (this happens about 80 times a day).
| 294 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:35:38pm |
Utah should make it where masturbating is a crime too then. They've made everything else illegal.
| 295 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:35:54pm |
re: #293 SpaceJesus
all the interns do it. my favorite thing to do was to make up a new definition for "cloture" every time someone would ask (this happens about 80 times a day).
so basically it is a waste of time calling your congress critters?
| 296 |
SpaceJesus Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:35:57pm |
re: #288 albusteve
hahaha!...bong in one hand, phone in the other, feet up
haha, naw. not in domenici's office. i was just on facebook or playing suduko.
| 297 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:36:25pm |
re: #293 SpaceJesus
all the interns do it. my favorite thing to do was to make up a new definition for "cloture" every time someone would ask (this happens about 80 times a day).
I always thought it was a blockage in one of the congressional WCs.
| 298 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:36:30pm |
re: #266 drcordell
Yes. We are "so worried about you" that we don't think you deserve to die because you can't afford exorbitantly priced healthcare. Why is this offensive to you?
Because I have taken care of myself as fully as I could for 57 years. And now, that may not be as possible. It's a really good feeling to be able to rely on yourself for all your needs. It's a really good feeling to know that you're self worth has enable yourself to work, feed yourself, take care of others you love, that you are a desired part of society, not a burden. It's a really good feeling to be able to voluntarily help others in need, without any rules or stipulations... selfless giving, not connected to politics or your or someone's self interest of advancement. Those thing are a really good feeling.
Maybe you should try it sometime? I doubt you would understand though.
| 300 |
Stonemason Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:36:38pm |
re: #266 drcordell
Yes. We are "so worried about you" that we don't think you deserve to die because you can't afford exorbitantly priced healthcare. Why is this offensive to you?
I can't speak for Walter, but it bothers me that people can do what ever the heck they want to their health and expect someone else to pick up the tab. I am being told that my health-care contribution is going from $40 to $55 per week because of the usage n our plan. Yes, my premiums are going up because the pool I am in (a large group) includes many self inflicted pre-existing conditions. My family exercises and eats pretty good, but, we pay more. I still can not figure out how this bill will save me money.
and back to the original question...the let is not 'worried', the left wants to control. This is historical on the left.
| 301 |
SpaceJesus Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:36:48pm |
re: #295 webevintage
so basically it is a waste of time calling your congress critters?
yes. you're only going to be talking to interns who don't know anything.
email a staffer, like an LA or LC and you might get something.
| 302 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:37:05pm |
I like when they talk about the cost. "If you can't measure it, you can't manage it" he just said.
It's more about talking a good game, and it is time to abandon talking points and is something to be solved together.
| 303 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:37:22pm |
re: #296 SpaceJesus
haha, naw. not in domenici's office. i was just on facebook or playing suduko.
You're young, then. Facebook? That means you worked for Domenici between 2006 and today.
| 304 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:37:37pm |
re: #300 Stonemason
I can't speak for Walter, but it bothers me that people can do what ever the heck they want to their health and expect someone else to pick up the tab. I am being told that my health-care contribution is going from $40 to $55 per week because of the usage n our plan. Yes, my premiums are going up because the pool I am in (a large group) includes many self inflicted pre-existing conditions. My family exercises and eats pretty good, but, we pay more. I still can not figure out how this bill will save me money.
and back to the original question...the let is not 'worried', the left wants to control. This is historical on the left.
See my... re: #298 Walter L. Newton... it's something that he cannot ever understand.
| 305 |
SpaceJesus Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:37:44pm |
re: #294 Diego
Utah should make it where masturbating is a crime too then. They've made everything else illegal.
every sperm is sacred
| 306 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:38:28pm |
See, now you've gone and done it, you have offended John McCain.
This starting over thing is BS because the Republicans know (and won't admit) that if the Dems get a HC bill past the American public will end up supporting them.
They are scared to death of a bill passing.
| 307 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:38:37pm |
re: #305 SpaceJesus
They can't realistically do that though: they're all wankers
| 308 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:38:41pm |
C'mon, people only 39 dings to put SpaceJesus in the black. Yes we can!
| 309 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:38:45pm |
I thought the Texas tort reform was debunked?
| 310 |
SpaceJesus Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:38:53pm |
re: #303 darthstar
You're young, then. Facebook? That means you worked for Domenici between 2006 and today.
mhmm, me and old domenici, or "p diddy" as all us interns called him.
| 311 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:39:04pm |
re: #242 albusteve
there is more than enough wasted tax money gone up in smoke via the federal govt to pay for everybodys medical care...the sprawling govt doesn't even have a clue...they just continue to tax...I would bet that scores or even hundreds of billions just go down the drain through stupidity or over indulgence...the feds don't fool me...the govt is WAY to big and cumbersome and we continue to feed the beast because it's the law...and they wrote the law
You know a politician has run out of ideas when he says to pay for something with savings generated by the reduction of waste, fraud and abuse. It's another way of saying that he has no idea where to get the money but wants to spend anyway.
| 312 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:39:42pm |
re: #298 Walter L. Newton
Because I have taken care of myself as fully as I could for 57 years. And now, that may not be as possible. It's a really good feeling to be able to rely on yourself for all your needs. It's a really good feeling to know that you're self worth has enable yourself to work, feed yourself, take care of others you love, that you are a desired part of society, not a burden. It's a really good feeling to be able to voluntarily help others in need, without any rules or stipulations... selfless giving, not connected to politics or your or someone's self interest of advancement. Those thing are a really good feeling.
Maybe you should try it sometime? I doubt you would understand though.
My job pays me excellently. With full benefits. I am a worker whose taxes are paying for the benefits that you may soon take advantage of. And you know what? Despite your bad attitude about it, I don't have any problem with it.
We live in the richest nation on earth. We have more than enough money to ensure that nobody dies in the street because they lack the ability to pay for their healthcare. I simply cannot see how this concept is so utterly offensive to you.
| 313 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:39:52pm |
Which states did mcCain cite as examples of tort reform?
If it's Texas and California he's probably going to look stupid.
| 314 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:40:00pm |
re: #311 garhighway
You know a politician has run out of ideas when he says to pay for something with savings generated by the reduction of waste, fraud and abuse. It's another way of saying that he has no idea where to get the money but wants to spend anyway.
So you're against reducing waste, fraud and abuse? Or you think it can't be done?
| 316 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:40:13pm |
re: #313 Killgore Trout
Which states did mcCain cite as examples of tort reform?
If it's Texas and California he's probably going to look stupid.
That's who he used. TX and CA.
| 317 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:40:15pm |
re: #298 Walter L. Newton
Because I have taken care of myself as fully as I could for 57 years. And now, that may not be as possible. It's a really good feeling to be able to rely on yourself for all your needs. It's a really good feeling to know that you're self worth has enable yourself to work, feed yourself, take care of others you love, that you are a desired part of society, not a burden. It's a really good feeling to be able to voluntarily help others in need, without any rules or stipulations... selfless giving, not connected to politics or your or someone's self interest of advancement. Those thing are a really good feeling.
Maybe you should try it sometime? I doubt you would understand though.
Garhighway... evidently you have a real low opinion of yourself if you could in anyway down ding my comment above.
| 318 |
Stonemason Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:40:17pm |
| 320 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:40:42pm |
McCain's talking out his ass. Never before has reconciliation been used on an issue of this much importance. Uh, bullshit, John.
| 321 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:40:52pm |
re: #315 Diego
Cali and Texas
Lol. I'm pretty sure that's been debunked. CA had 30% increases just last week.
| 323 |
Izzyboy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:41:16pm |
| 324 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:42:20pm |
re: #312 drcordell
My job pays me excellently. With full benefits. I am a worker whose taxes are paying for the benefits that you may soon take advantage of. And you know what? Despite your bad attitude about it, I don't have any problem with it.
We live in the richest nation on earth. We have more than enough money to ensure that nobody dies in the street because they lack the ability to pay for their healthcare. I simply cannot see how this concept is so utterly offensive to you.
You proved my point. I stated above that you couldn't understand, so don't try.
| 327 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:43:02pm |
re: #279 SpaceJesus
when i did my internship in the senate right after undergrad, i would have to answer calls and questions from constituents all the time, and would just make stuff up as answers.
Explains a lot.
| 328 |
Izzyboy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:43:17pm |
| 329 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:43:26pm |
re: #298 Walter L. Newton
Because I have taken care of myself as fully as I could for 57 years. And now, that may not be as possible. It's a really good feeling to be able to rely on yourself for all your needs. It's a really good feeling to know that you're self worth has enable yourself to work, feed yourself, take care of others you love, that you are a desired part of society, not a burden. It's a really good feeling to be able to voluntarily help others in need, without any rules or stipulations... selfless giving, not connected to politics or your or someone's self interest of advancement. Those thing are a really good feeling.
Maybe you should try it sometime? I doubt you would understand though.
I do...as cavalier as I sound, it was very difficult to take state money....I'm extremely independent, self employed for most of my life, and have steered clear of the govt like the plague...people yelled at me for a year to do it, they were getting pissed off at me...I paid $900 for two quick visits to the ER when somebody asked me if I had insurance, and when I said no, within minutes a social worker was signing me up for state insurance....I could no longer justify my resistance, so I did it
| 330 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:43:35pm |
re: #309 Stanley Sea
I thought the Texas tort reform was debunked?
Tort reform is a sideshow. It does knock down a provider's insurance costs a little, but it doesn't seem to make any dent in defensive medicine, which is where the money is. There are two problems there:
1> Defensive medicine is now so firmly ingrained in the medical culture of the US that it would take a huge intervention (and many, many years) to get rid of it, and
2> trying to get rid of it begins to smell like "rationing of care" which is an anti-HCR talking point.
There's no there there.
| 331 |
torrentprime Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:44:15pm |
re: #314 Cato the Elder
So you're against reducing waste, fraud and abuse? Or you think it can't be done?
To me, it's a way to play the "government sucks" card as well as tighten up tort exclusion reform to protect big insurance; it has the added benefit of pretending that substantive reforms are contained therein.
| 332 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:44:17pm |
re: #312 drcordell
My job pays me excellently. With full benefits. I am a worker whose taxes are paying for the benefits that you may soon take advantage of. And you know what? Despite your bad attitude about it, I don't have any problem with it.
We live in the richest nation on earth. We have more than enough money to ensure that nobody dies in the street because they lack the ability to pay for their healthcare. I simply cannot see how this concept is so utterly offensive to you.
He reminds me of a planned parenthood protestor that's angry they find themselves needing a safe and legal abortion.
| 333 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:44:46pm |
re: #320 darthstar
McCain's talking out his ass. Never before has reconciliation been used on an issue of this much importance. Uh, bullshit, John.
That's ok, it's Obama, Pelosi, and crew all on camera talking about how horrendously horrible it would be for the Republicans to use reconciliation in 2005. Constitutional crisis, dontcha know.
| 334 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:44:54pm |
"We're running out of time." Yep...almost time for the Nordic Combined...
| 335 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:45:09pm |
re: #324 Walter L. Newton
You proved my point. I stated above that you couldn't understand, so don't try.
I could never understand the joy of being self-sufficient. Because I don't take one red fucking cent from the government. In fact, I pay tens of thousands of dollars in taxes every year.
But you, openly contemplating taking advantage of social welfare programs, feel justified in attacking MY work ethic? And telling ME that I will never understand what it's like to support myself. Fuck. You.
| 336 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:45:28pm |
re: #333 cliffster
re: #320 darthstar
That's ok, it's Obama, Pelosi, and crew all on camera talking about how horrendously horrible it would be for the Republicans to use reconciliation in 2005. Constitutional crisis, dontcha know.
That is an outright lie. Look it up and stop believing the lies from Hanity.
| 337 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:45:46pm |
re: #333 cliffster
That's ok, it's Obama, Pelosi, and crew all on camera talking about how horrendously horrible it would be for the Republicans to use reconciliation in 2005. Constitutional crisis, dontcha know.
yep...and they used it - for Bush's tax cuts, which are about to expire.
| 338 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:45:48pm |
re: #325 drcordell
With all due respect, how dare you?
I did. Simple wasn't it.
Hey, I've come over to your side. I can't wait for this to pass. And actually, considering the direction my life is probably going in, I hope the Democrats manage to pile a lot more into this health care reform. If I'm going to have to rely on the taxpayer to help support me, I amy as well get as much as I can.
The left always seems so willing to offer it to me. You certainly shouldn't be mad when I finally decide to take it.
Welcome me to the left.
| 339 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:45:50pm |
re: #305 SpaceJesus
every sperm is sacred
god only gives you so many heartbeats, but some have to be wasted on arousal and climax I suppose
| 340 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:46:16pm |
re: #336 Diego
That is an outright lie. Look it up and stop believing the lies from Hanity.
Actually, I've seen the video. I don't watch Hannity.
| 341 |
Ojoe Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:46:18pm |
Do the people in this video look like they are trying to cooperate for the common good?
Why do we keep electing them?
| 342 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:46:56pm |
re: #332 goddamnedfrank
He reminds me of a planned parenthood protestor that's angry they find themselves needing a safe and legal abortion.
I would never protest planned parenthood... I'm fine with abortions.
| 343 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:46:57pm |
re: #337 darthstar
yep...and they used it - for Bush's tax cuts, which are about to expire.
And they didn't use it - for Social Security reform, which is what they were talking about.
| 344 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:47:01pm |
re: #333 cliffster
The senators were actually speaking out against a Republican effort to eliminate the filibuster in the middle of a session of the U.S. Senate. Not, repeat NOT, reconciliation.
| 345 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:47:34pm |
re: #338 Walter L. Newton
I did. Simple wasn't it.
Hey, I've come over to your side. I can't wait for this to pass. And actually, considering the direction my life is probably going in, I hope the Democrats manage to pile a lot more into this health care reform. If I'm going to have to rely on the taxpayer to help support me, I amy as well get as much as I can.
The left always seems so willing to offer it to me. You certainly shouldn't be mad when I finally decide to take it.
Welcome me to the left.
I am not mad in the least! I am asking you why you seem to be so offended by the concept that you should feel justified in taking advantage of such programs. And in return you repeatedly tell me that I would "never understand" what it's like to support myself. wtf?
| 346 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:47:34pm |
re: #334 darthstar
"We're running out of time." Yep...almost time for the Nordic Combined...
Vonn crashed in the giant slalom today....
| 347 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:48:13pm |
re: #335 drcordell
I could never understand the joy of being self-sufficient. Because I don't take one red fucking cent from the government. In fact, I pay tens of thousands of dollars in taxes every year.
But you, openly contemplating taking advantage of social welfare programs, feel justified in attacking MY work ethic? And telling ME that I will never understand what it's like to support myself. Fuck. You.
Can't please a leftist if you try... take public money, they yell, don't want it, they yell... wonderful.
| 348 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:48:15pm |
re: #343 cliffster
And they didn't use it - for Social Security reform, which is what they were talking about.
That wasn't Social Security Reform. It would have meant the end of Social Security.
| 350 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:48:19pm |
Dick Durban is rocking!
| 351 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:48:21pm |
re: #343 cliffster
And they didn't use it - for Social Security reform, which is what they were talking about.
Because they didn't have 51 votes for it. They would have if they did.
| 352 |
torrentprime Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:48:34pm |
re: #338 Walter L. Newton
I did. Simple wasn't it.
Hey, I've come over to your side. I can't wait for this to pass. And actually, considering the direction my life is probably going in, I hope the Democrats manage to pile a lot more into this health care reform. If I'm going to have to rely on the taxpayer to help support me, I amy as well get as much as I can.
The left always seems so willing to offer it to me. You certainly shouldn't be mad when I finally decide to take it.
Welcome me to the left.
I don't think theoretical glee at someone's getting religion on one political issue is somehow a shield against personal attacks coming from that same person.
| 354 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:48:36pm |
re: #341 Ojoe
Do the people in this video look like they are trying to cooperate for the common good?
Why do we keep electing them?
What is the answer? A revolution? Ron Paul?
| 355 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:48:47pm |
"If you think it is a socialist plot then drop out of the Federal Employees insurance."
| 358 |
Ojoe Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:49:54pm |
re: #354 Silvergirl
Whig Party, and quit gerrymandering, and further ...
Well the electorate is lazy.
| 359 |
lawhawk Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:50:19pm |
re: #237 sagehen
That would be awful.
Just like all those partially-taxpayer-subsidized public universities have driven the Ivy League out of the business. And ever since NYC got those tax-assisted subways, nobody drives their own cars or uses cabs anymore.
Except that the public transit system did kill private bus service in NYC. I can remember Pioneer and Command bus, along with Jamaica Bus. They're all gone - having been rolled over into the NYC TA because they couldn't hack it.
And now that the NYC MTA needs to raise fares and cut services, it will drive those who can drive out of mass transit and back on to the roads because the state subsidies are being cut due to the state and city fiscal mess.
Higher education is a mess of federal subsidies to everyone (direct and via the student loan process) - public and private institutions, with state institutions getting additional state subsidies, and some privates get state subsidies as well. The Ivies get to operate and charge insane amounts of money based on their exclusive nature and reputation. Not exactly a good comparison in either case you present.
| 360 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:50:53pm |
re: #345 drcordell
I am not mad in the least! I am asking you why you seem to be so offended by the concept that you should feel justified in taking advantage of such programs. And in return you repeatedly tell me that I would "never understand" what it's like to support myself. wtf?
In my opinion, if you have to even ask why I feel personally offended by the thought of having to take advantage of public programs, then you are missing something, at least missing something about me.
| 361 |
RogueOne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:51:25pm |
I don't understand the republican strategy here. The health care reform issue is highly unpopular and the dems don't even have enough votes to push it through reconciliation. The dems are taking a beating if the repubs were smart they would have just told the president they'd love to talk to him.....next year.
| 362 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:51:35pm |
re: #314 Cato the Elder
So you're against reducing waste, fraud and abuse? Or you think it can't be done?
I think it is very, very hard to do, and I think that the numbers that get kicked around about the scale of the WF&A problem are very unreliable.
I'm as opposed to WF&A as anyone. But no one wants to spend any money to truly attack the problem (it takes auditors and such to root it out), and those efforts, if taken seriously, lead to government becoming even MORE bureaucratic, if such a thing is possible.
Sometimes the issue is raised in bad faith by those who are more interested in establishing the point that government is fundamentally inept and untrustworthy. The "starve the beast" crowd. If they can establish that point, then whatever program or regulation they are opposing looks more suspect, and they never have to go to the merits of the issue at hand.
Having said all of that, I am against it, and when I see a credible proposal to reduce it, I am gung ho.
| 363 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:51:45pm |
re: #347 Walter L. Newton
Can't please a leftist if you try... take public money, they yell, don't want it, they yell... wonderful.
Where did I demand that you please me? I have no problem if you decide NOT to take public money for your healthcare. I have no problem if you DO decide to take public money for your healthcare.
I will say it again. I don't believe anyone in this country should ever die because they lack the financial means to pay for medical treatment. Even you. Why taking this money makes you a "leftist" I don't know.
| 364 |
Girth Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:51:54pm |
I generally can't stand the guy and I hate how he talks to the CSPAN cameras when giving a speech instead of talking to the Senate, but that was the best thing I've ever heard from Durbin.
| 365 |
Digital Display Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:52:06pm |
re: #244 Cato the Elder
Sign of the end times: SpaceJesus is only 54 dings away from positive karma.
From a -1000 in the red?
Comeback poster of the year award!
| 366 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:52:31pm |
re: #359 lawhawk
Don't the Ivy League schools also have endowments at this point that generate income the equivalent of the GNP of small countries?
| 368 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:53:03pm |
re: #342 Walter L. Newton
I would never protest planned parenthood... I'm fine with abortions.
Which is why I said you "remind me of," instead of you "are." Get it?
The proper term for people like you is "ingrate."
| 369 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:53:05pm |
re: #365 HoosierHoops
From a -1000 in the red?
Comeback poster of the year award!
Don't count me out quite yet! I was at least -2,000 and now I'm only -361!
| 370 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:53:07pm |
Now it's going to get good. Obama's laying it out real well right now.
| 371 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:53:45pm |
re: #366 oaktree
Don't the Ivy League schools also have endowments at this point that generate income the equivalent of the GNP of small countries?
They used to until they completely loaded themselves with risky derivatives and imploded over the past 5 years.
| 372 |
oldegeezr Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:54:52pm |
re: #233 Walter L. Newton
I agree, or not?
From my experience, the proliferate use of the “updingy” harkens back to Ed Morrissey’s earlier blog at “Captain’s Quarters” or am I wrong?
Actually I luv it, without exception… especially the first folks on the blog in the very early AM seem inclined to “updingy" every damn thing the other early riser writes?
Gotta luv yeh early risers…
Yes…!
| 374 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:55:20pm |
re: #360 Walter L. Newton
In my opinion, if you have to even ask why I feel personally offended by the thought of having to take advantage of public programs, then you are missing something, at least missing something about me.
So you don't believe someone like yourself, who I'm sure has worked their ass off for 45+ years, deserves a guarantee that we won't let them die because they fell on hard times?
| 375 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:55:33pm |
Some Orthopedic Surgeon from Wyoming is claiming that everyone in America that you talk to believes this is all bad and everyone will DIE!!!!1!
| 376 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:56:31pm |
Barrasso: staring at the camera through most of his speech
| 377 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:56:37pm |
re: #373 webevintage
Doctor, you are talking BS here.
He's using the plaintive voice. Yet another passive-agressive ploy to get sympathy for the status quo.
| 378 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:57:17pm |
re: #374 drcordell
So you don't believe someone like yourself, who I'm sure has worked their ass off for 45+ years, deserves a guarantee that we won't let them die because they fell on hard times?
I told you I do. What have I been saying all down this thread. I say it hurts, it's against everything I stand for, but yes, I want it, I'll take it, I'll take as much as I can...
What's wrong with that?
| 379 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:57:26pm |
re: #360 Walter L. Newton
In my opinion, if you have to even ask why I feel personally offended by the thought of having to take advantage of public programs, then you are missing something, at least missing something about me.
I think you should replace "offended" with "shamed" and you'd probably be left alone.
| 380 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:57:36pm |
re: #377 darthstar
He's using the plaintive voice. Yet another passive-agressive ploy to get sympathy for the status quo.
I had to turn down the sound....
| 381 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:57:45pm |
Dude, this argument is pitiful.
If your catastrophic policy doesn't cover the MRI, you find out the cost of the MRI and you can't afford it, you don't get the MRI. As a Dr. you should be appalled that someone would have to defer the test.
geeze
| 382 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:57:55pm |
re: #359 lawhawk
Except that the public transit system did kill private bus service in NYC. I can remember Pioneer and Command bus, along with Jamaica Bus. They're all gone - having been rolled over into the NYC TA because they couldn't hack it.
And now that the NYC MTA needs to raise fares and cut services, it will drive those who can drive out of mass transit and back on to the roads because the state subsidies are being cut due to the state and city fiscal mess.
Higher education is a mess of federal subsidies to everyone (direct and via the student loan process) - public and private institutions, with state institutions getting additional state subsidies, and some privates get state subsidies as well. The Ivies get to operate and charge insane amounts of money based on their exclusive nature and reputation. Not exactly a good comparison in either case you present.
You are absolutely right. And I imagine all those private buses I see here every day.
Your prediction on the future of mass transit here in NYC is, I think, wrong-headed. But we'll see, won't we?
On higher ed, I agree: it is damn near impossible to calculate the true cost of that product. Everybody subsidizes it some: states, cities, the feds.
| 383 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:58:39pm |
re: #379 recusancy
I think you should replace "offended" with "shamed" and you'd probably be left alone.
I never used the word "offended." I was simply repeating what Dr. Cordell said to me.
| 384 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:59:41pm |
re: #383 Walter L. Newton
I never used the word "offended." I was simply repeating what Dr. Cordell said to me.
Clarification. I never suggested myself that I was offended. Dr. Cordell first used the word in reference to me, I simply repeated the usage.
| 386 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:00:20pm |
re: #378 Walter L. Newton
I told you I do. What have I been saying all down this thread. I say it hurts, it's against everything I stand for, but yes, I want it, I'll take it, I'll take as much as I can...
What's wrong with that?
I don't think anything is wrong with that. I am simply surprised at the strong language you keep using to describe your opposition to receiving assistance with your healthcare costs. You clearly don't have anything to be ashamed of.
| 387 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:00:25pm |
Would you feel the same if you made $40,000 a year?
hell no!
| 388 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:01:11pm |
re: #387 darthstar
Would you feel the same if you made $40,000 a year?
hell no!
That was a big score.
| 389 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:01:33pm |
I'm not hearing about finding solutions...these guys are just going over old ground...what's the point of this conference?
| 391 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:01:56pm |
Dude got to meet the president. Now he's interrupting the president. I'd love to be a fly on the wall when he got back to his office.
| 392 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:02:22pm |
5 million Americans will lose unemployment and COBRA next month!
5 MILLION! 5 FUCKING MILLION! DO SOMETHING YOU BASTARDS!
| 394 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:03:12pm |
re: #386 drcordell
I don't think anything is wrong with that. I am simply surprised at the strong language you keep using to describe your opposition to receiving assistance with your healthcare costs. You clearly don't have anything to be ashamed of.
When did I use the word "ashamed." I don't feel ashamed of anything. Never even implied I was ashamed of a damn thing. Please don't put words in my mouth or attribute a certain feeling to me that I never even approached.
For a matter of fact, if I wind up need it, and I can wrangle even penny I can from the public dole, I'm going to feel absolutely proud of myself.
| 395 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:03:29pm |
I'm so amazed how each time a republican spouts their BS the President comes back and tells them why they are wrong.
"Because members of congress get paid $175,000 a year!!!!!!!"
Finally, a Democrat makes the correct point about HSAs.
and now, do we want the elderly to have catastrophic policies?
| 396 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:03:41pm |
re: #390 Killgore Trout
LOL!
PWNED!
That was probably the most cogent statement I have ever observed Obama make.
They should have had this format from the start.
| 398 |
lawhawk Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:03:45pm |
re: #371 drcordell
Even with the hit they took when their investments imploded, many of the Ivies have endowments that are larger than the GNP of quite a few countries.
All took significant hits, but all have endowments above $2 billion. Penn is at $5.2 billion after the fall; Columbia is at $5.9 billion; Dartmouth is at $2.8 billion; Princeton $12.6 billion; Cornell, $4 billion; Brown $2 billion; Yale, $16 billion; and Harvard $25.7 billion.
All figures from Forbes as of January 2010.
| 399 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:04:11pm |
re: #392 Diego
5 million Americans will lose unemployment and COBRA next month!
5 MILLION! 5 FUCKING MILLION! DO SOMETHING YOU BASTARDS!
John Kyl is going to hold the bill up because he is upset that the estate tax will go up next year.
Bastard...
| 400 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:04:13pm |
re: #397 oldegeezr
I wish I did, but he's somewhat spineless. Time will tell.
| 402 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:04:22pm |
re: #396 Racer X
That was probably the most cogent statement I have ever observed Obama make.
They should have had this format from the start.
Yeah, the prepared speeches this morning were a waste.
| 404 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:05:36pm |
did the Dems just loose their collective patience with the BS the Rs have been saying?
| 405 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:06:18pm |
re: #402 Killgore Trout
Yeah, the prepared speeches this morning were a waste.
I'm glad I missed it.
| 406 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:06:24pm |
re: #404 webevintage
did the Dems just loose their collective patience with the BS the Rs have been saying?
Waxman's great. "I'd hate the plan too if I had to listen to what the Republicans have been saying about it...Government takeover?" Great.
| 407 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:06:56pm |
| 408 |
Mr. Crankypants Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:07:24pm |
re: #406 darthstar
Waxman's great. "I'd hate the plan too if I had to listen to what the Republicans have been saying about it...Government takeover?" Great.
Its interesting that if asked if they support Obama care they say no, but if asked about the individual ideas in the plan they're all for it.
| 409 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:07:59pm |
| 412 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:08:24pm |
Facing reality is always good. You need money, but you can't pretend it's there when it isn't.
I thought Obama's best statement was
"We can debate whether we can afford to help them. But let's not debate whether they need help."
| 413 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:08:29pm |
BY THE WAY: MOST OF YOU ARE NOW 'PROGRESSIVES'
But that's okay, it's not a sin and isn't destroying America..
| 414 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:09:21pm |
re: #410 Racer X
So you think that actually setting aside money taken for social security is a bad idea? You think it's better to spend every dime of it, like we're doing now? personally, I think that setting aside the money is good.
| 416 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:09:29pm |
re: #413 Diego
BY THE WAY: MOST OF YOU ARE NOW 'PROGRESSIVES'
But that's okay, it's not a sin and isn't destroying America..
But Glenn Beck said it's a disease that needs to be eradicated. ///
| 418 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:10:07pm |
re: #416 recusancy
He could qualify as Sarah Palen's offspring.. ;)
| 419 |
Girth Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:10:30pm |
| 420 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:10:37pm |
re: #416 recusancy
But Glenn Beck said it's a disease that needs to be eradicated. ///
Put down the chalk and step away from the blackboard!!
///
| 421 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:10:48pm |
WTH?
I was going to Tivo the rest but CNN & FOX are chattering over the remarks and MSNBC has the Games on and I don't get CSPAN 3.
| 422 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:11:25pm |
re: #421 webevintage
Yup. The dumbing down of America. It'll be online.
| 423 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:11:42pm |
re: #394 Walter L. Newton
When did I use the word "ashamed." I don't feel ashamed of anything. Never even implied I was ashamed of a damn thing. Please don't put words in my mouth or attribute a certain feeling to me that I never even approached.
For a matter of fact, if I wind up need it, and I can wrangle even penny I can from the public dole, I'm going to feel absolutely proud of myself.
You may not have said "I feel ashamed" but you seemingly gave that impression with quotes such as:
"Once I stoop to the level of the public dole"
"I say it hurts, it's against everything I stand for"
"if you have to even ask why I feel personally offended by the thought of having to take advantage of public programs"
| 424 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:11:55pm |
re: #421 webevintage
Use the facebook link: [Link: apps.facebook.com...]
| 426 |
sngnsgt Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:12:16pm |
re: #421 webevintage
MSLSD will have Democrat talking points later.
| 427 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:13:00pm |
| 428 |
freetoken Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:13:01pm |
re: #419 Girth
BY THE WAY: MOST OF YOU ARE NOW
'PROGRESSIVES''COMMUNISTS'LINCOLNITES/
Glenn BeckNeo-Confederates FTFTFY
| 429 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:13:07pm |
re: #414 cliffster
So you think that actually setting aside money taken for social security is a bad idea? You think it's better to spend every dime of it, like we're doing now? personally, I think that setting aside the money is good.
I think the image speaks for itself.
I am FOR single payer, all-in, everyone pays for health care. Everyone. I am all for reform and an absolute witch hunt to eliminate fraud and waste. We deserve no less.
| 430 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:13:13pm |
| 431 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:13:15pm |
re: #413 Diego
BY THE WAY: MOST OF YOU ARE NOW 'PROGRESSIVES'
But that's okay, it's not a sin and isn't destroying America..
Maybe not, but something sure is.
| 433 |
Girth Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:13:53pm |
A pox on both their houses!
And an extra poke in the eye to the Dems for trying to make corrupt deals to pass their bill, and a kick in the groin to the Reps for lying about just about everything under the sun.
| 435 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:14:10pm |
re: #423 drcordell
You may not have said "I feel ashamed" but you seemingly gave that impression with quotes such as:
"Once I stoop to the level of the public dole"
"I say it hurts, it's against everything I stand for"
"if you have to even ask why I feel personally offended by the thought of having to take advantage of public programs"
Then I will spell it out for you... I am not ashamed if I have to go to the government for something in the future. And if I do, I am going to squeeze every penny that I legally rightfully can squeeze from them.
Can you accept that? Are we on the same side with that?
| 436 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:14:11pm |
re: #430 Silvergirl
Clueless. They (the Palins) are all clueless.
| 437 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:14:31pm |
| 440 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:15:00pm |
| 441 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:15:00pm |
re: #378 Walter L. Newton
I told you I do. What have I been saying all down this thread. I say it hurts, it's against everything I stand for, but yes, I want it, I'll take it, I'll take as much as I can...
What's wrong with that?
Nothing ...
For a matter of fact, if I wind up need it, and I can wrangle even penny I can from the public dole, I'm going to feel absolutely proud of myself.
... except for the shifting narrative. Either "it hurts" or you're "going to feel absolutely proud of [yourself]" both cannot simultaneously be true unless you're basing both arguments entirely on situational expediency.
In other words, all you seem to be arguing is that taking the money will hurt less once it's taken. Which is almost definitely true. Take it, it's your birthright as a citizen.
| 442 |
Girth Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:15:08pm |
re: #429 Racer X
I think the image speaks for itself.
I am FOR single payer, all-in, everyone pays for health care. Everyone. I am all for reform and an absolute witch hunt to eliminate fraud and waste. We deserve no less.
I think I'm there with you on single payer now.
| 443 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:15:10pm |
re: #429 Racer X
I think the image speaks for itself.
I am FOR single payer, all-in, everyone pays for health care. Everyone. I am all for reform and an absolute witch hunt to eliminate fraud and waste. We deserve no less.
Well, I disagree with you on that, but what I really don't understand is the mocking of Social Security reform.
| 444 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:15:26pm |
re: #435 Walter L. Newton
Then I will spell it out for you... I am not ashamed if I have to go to the government for something in the future. And if I do, I am going to squeeze every penny that I legally rightfully can squeeze from them.
Can you accept that? Are we on the same side with that?
We are on the same page. I apologize if I misconstrued your comments.
| 445 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:15:56pm |
That word salad was just too much, had to turn the sound off again.
| 447 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:16:04pm |
re: #432 Izzyboy
Pelosi fail
Pelosi fails whenever she steps up to the mike. She's a far-left zealot (unlike Obama, who is simply left-liberal) and much of the nation doesn't believe her simply on that basis. i know I don't.
| 448 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:16:06pm |
re: #429 Racer X
I think the image speaks for itself.
I am FOR single payer, all-in, everyone pays for health care. Everyone. I am all for reform and an absolute witch hunt to eliminate fraud and waste. We deserve no less.
With that being said, I am totally in favor on the R's protesting and pointing out the flaws in the current proposals. There are flaws. There is pork and there is waste.
We can do better.
What you are watching today is HOW.
| 449 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:16:10pm |
Etch a sketch?
Start over. Oh I get it.
| 452 |
freetoken Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:17:04pm |
| 453 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:17:09pm |
re: #434 Jeff In Ohio
Your being pwnd.
No he's not. My job and financial situation has continued to decline for the last 5 years, and not short of any efforts by myself.
If it continues, I will have to turn somewhere, and if the government want to offer all these handout to me, and I am legally entitled to them, then I will proudly take them, even though it goes against almost everything I was taught and many ways that I have felt about this in the past.
What's wrong with that?
| 454 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:17:42pm |
re: #448 Racer X
It's not an accident that what we got was a bill that was basically going to make insurance companies billions of dollars, and it's not because that's the best that could be done with all the partisan bickering. The bill that was put out there is exactly what the majority of congresspeople wanted.
| 455 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:18:00pm |
re: #441 goddamnedfrank
... except for the shifting narrative. Either "it hurts" or you're "going to feel absolutely proud of [yourself]" both cannot simultaneously be true unless you're basing both arguments entirely on situational expediency.
In other words, all you seem to be arguing is that taking the money will hurt less once it's taken. Which is almost definitely true. Take it, it's your birthright as a citizen.
No, I don't think it's a birthright, but I will take it, proudly.
| 456 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:18:14pm |
| 457 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:18:55pm |
re: #443 cliffster
Well, I disagree with you on that, but what I really don't understand is the mocking of Social Security reform.
I think the point of that cartoon was there were many in the GOP who were pushing to let people dump a significant amount of their SS into the stock market. That would have been totally disastrous given the crash last year.
| 458 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:19:26pm |
| 459 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:19:26pm |
Once again the President has to point out that we are talking about the working poor and middle class who needs the coverage.
| 460 |
Jeff In Ohio Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:19:45pm |
| 461 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:20:02pm |
I like the point that Obama is trying to make here. He's really hammering home the point that the poorest Americans who may not even have jobs are covered by Medicaid. But the people who are getting screwed the most are those who have jobs (or probably two jobs) and end up making too much money for medicaid, but too little to afford private coverage.
| 462 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:20:05pm |
re: #457 Racer X
Damn straight! But BOY some of them (brokers, etc) would have made a killing!
| 463 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:20:05pm |
Hey, gotta go, thanks for the lively live blog!
| 464 |
Girth Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:20:18pm |
re: #457 Racer X
I think the point of that cartoon was there were many in the GOP who were pushing to let people dump a significant amount of their SS into the stock market. That would have been totally disastrous given the crash last year.
Selective amnesia.
| 465 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:20:19pm |
re: #459 webevintage
Once again the President has to point out that we are talking about the working poor and middle class who needs the coverage.
Well, half the room is more concerned with the Insurance industry and lobbyists, so it needs repeating.
| 466 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:20:22pm |
re: #454 cliffster
It's not an accident that what we got was a bill that was basically going to make insurance companies billions of dollars, and it's not because that's the best that could be done with all the partisan bickering. The bill that was put out there is exactly what the majority of congresspeople wanted.
Yep. and I'm glad the GOP called them on it.
| 468 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:21:00pm |
re: #460 Jeff In Ohio
Nope.
Then you lose... I'm not pawn (however you spelt that word) anyone. Go back and hide.
| 469 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:21:17pm |
The bill that was put out there is exactly what the majority of congresspeople wanted.
No, it's because of Republican amendments in conference, etc.
| 470 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:21:33pm |
re: #465 darthstar
Well, half the room is more concerned with the Insurance industry and lobbyists, so it needs repeating.
I get the feeling its not the half you think.
| 471 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:21:36pm |
re: #465 darthstar
Well, half the room is more concerned with the Insurance industry and lobbyists, so it needs repeating.
Including Obama.
| 472 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:21:54pm |
Another great point just made regarding the emergency room. Each insurance payer is ponying up $1,100 a year on average to pay for the uninsured.
| 473 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:22:12pm |
| 474 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:22:16pm |
re: #472 drcordell
Another great point just made regarding the emergency room. Each insurance payer is ponying up $1,100 a year on average to pay for the uninsured.
DING!
| 475 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:22:19pm |
re: #359 lawhawk
Except that the public transit system did kill private bus service in NYC. I can remember Pioneer and Command bus, along with Jamaica Bus. They're all gone - having been rolled over into the NYC TA because they couldn't hack it.
And now that the NYC MTA needs to raise fares and cut services, it will drive those who can drive out of mass transit and back on to the roads because the state subsidies are being cut due to the state and city fiscal mess.
Actually, the MTA was subsidizing the private bus companies in Eastern Queens for decades by providing them with an exclusive contract for services, reimbursing equipment expenses, and other indirect subsidies. Sure the fare was cheaper for the rider (by about a quarter, if memory serves me correctly), but the vehicles were old and rickety, and their overall service sucked. In fact, bus drivers for the Green Line service were being paid $51,000 per year back in 1992, the highest rate in the country!
When the metrocard free transfers between MTA buses and subway came out in 1996, it was only a matter of time before the "independent" bus companies would be brought out by the city. Now all the buses match and are ADA accessible, and the 5 separate bus company offices have been merged with MTA Bus. Can't say the public lost much out of that "private" company loss! Even if the companies were still around, they would be facing a cut in subsidy payments anyway.
| 476 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:22:34pm |
Chris Dodd should be in jail....Charlie Rangle is a thief and a liar...these people are paid to run our govt....what a sick joke...Pelosi is complicit in protecting Rangle...I hate these guys, these are not my kind of people....they alienate me...elitists
| 477 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:22:37pm |
re: #470 Racer X
I get the feeling its not the half you think.
It's true, the lobbyists don't need to try and influence the Republicans. They're voting no regardless. The money is being showered on the Democrats to try and influence what may actually get passed.
| 478 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:22:58pm |
re: #472 drcordell
Another great point just made regarding the emergency room. Each insurance payer is ponying up $1,100 a year on average to pay for the uninsured.
I'm tempted to upding this.
| 479 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:23:10pm |
re: #476 albusteve
Lose the hate. Too much hate on your side of the room.
| 480 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:23:28pm |
re: #473 garhighway
I respectfully disagree.
Internal Memo Confirms Big Giveaways In White House Deal With Big Pharma
| 481 |
Bipartite Gnomenclature Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:23:45pm |
re: #111 cliffster
You see someone learning from their mistakes, I see someone who said whatever he needed to say to win the primary, then say whatever he needed to say to win the general, and now say whatever he needs to say to pass his pet agenda. We disagree on our perception. If you want to hate me for that, hate away...
So you are saying he knew the right thing to do, being all knowing and everything, but lied to get elected?
A prescient president, who knew?
| 482 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:25:39pm |
re: #461 drcordell
I like the point that Obama is trying to make here. He's really hammering home the point that the poorest Americans who may not even have jobs are covered by Medicaid. But the people who are getting screwed the most are those who have jobs (or probably two jobs) and end up making too much money for medicaid, but too little to afford private coverage.
yeah...point it out again....all this blather is almost a year old....this is a ridiculous dog and pony show BO has going....it's nothing more than a way to try and pin blame and responsibility
| 483 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:25:43pm |
re: #479 Diego
Lose the hate. Too much hate on your side of the room.
Hate may be strong word.
I'm totally fucking outraged that Dodd was never held accountable, along with Rangle, Frank, and Pelosi.
| 484 |
oldegeezr Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:25:48pm |
re: #400 Diego
I wrote earlier...
"el Rushbo capitulated today;
“…that’s where this is going, reconciliation Monday!”
Keep the faith...I still believe the Democrats will do the right thing.
Sometimes; it takes a bit longer for elected politicians to understand what their constituents actually need and want. They must be cajoled by letters, phone calls and emails from their constituents to realize the most critical human direction that's required... to diminish and subdue the overwhelming cacophony and money of the "nattering nabobs" of the powerful health care insurance lobby in Washington".
Keep the faith...and keep sendin' those cards and letters...
Keep it up...!
| 485 |
sagehen Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:25:58pm |
re: #399 webevintage
John Kyl is going to hold the bill up because he is upset that the estate tax will go up next year.
Bastard...
well, in fairness, those 2/10 of 1% of people whose parents' estates will be large enough to qualify... are far more important to Sen Kyl's continued employment than the ten times that many people who are too broke to ever contribute to his campaign anyway.
| 486 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:26:25pm |
Does anyone here support Chris Dodd? Do you think he should even be around, still in office, still lending his opinion?
| 487 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:26:37pm |
re: #479 Diego
Lose the hate. Too much hate on your side of the room.
I'll hate whenever/whoever I want
| 488 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:26:56pm |
BTW, who wants to bet that the item FOX and Friends decides to make the story is that the Dems got to speak more then the Rs and the President, who we know is such a narcissist, talked more then anyone.
Oh noes.
Now I really am leaving.
| 489 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:27:07pm |
re: #480 Walter L. Newton
Internal Memo Confirms Big Giveaways In White House Deal With Big Pharma
My read was that he made that deal as a political necessity, not out of love for that industry.
Picking a fight with Pharma is a good way to kill a bill.
Whether the tactic was wise or unwise I have no idea.
| 490 |
freetoken Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:27:46pm |
re: #486 Silvergirl
Does anyone here support Chris Dodd? Do you think he should even be around, still in office, still lending his opinion?
That question is the responsibility of the people of his State, who seem to think he represents their state well enough to have returned him to office.
| 491 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:28:08pm |
Some Republican is yapping about buying insurance across state lines again. And surprise! Medical malpractice. What great new ideas!
Oh, Texas has implemented medical malpractice reform! Wow! I'm sure that's of great interest to the 20% of Texans who lack health insurance.
| 492 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:28:21pm |
Medical malpractice, sell across state lines, medical malpractice, sell across state lines.
To those who have read up on the 3 different health care proposals, these 2 points are insulting.
| 493 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:28:38pm |
re: #479 Diego
Lose the hate. Too much hate on your side of the room.
The hate is earned in their case. The Donks Steve mentioned and a bunch of thieves and liars.
| 494 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:28:49pm |
re: #487 albusteve
I never said you couldn't. It is a shame though, but your life. BTW: you DO know that people who hate don't live as long? Not that I mind..
| 495 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:29:13pm |
re: #492 Stanley Sea
Medical malpractice, sell across state lines, medical malpractice, sell across state lines.
To those who have read up on the 3 different health care proposals, these 2 points are insulting.
Yeah it's a freaking joke. Holding up Texas as an example of a well functioning healthcare system is pathetic.
| 496 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:29:29pm |
re: #490 freetoken
That question is the responsibility of the people of his State, who seem to think he represents their state well enough to have returned him to office.
Completely valid point. Who is posting here now that may fit that category? Or who supports the decision of the people he represents?
| 497 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:30:40pm |
re: #494 Diego
I never said you couldn't. It is a shame though, but your life. BTW: you DO know that people who hate don't live as long? Not that I mind..
/tell that to Castro...
| 498 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:30:42pm |
re: #496 Silvergirl
Old political adage: Everyone hates Congress and everyone loves their Congressman.
| 499 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:30:59pm |
re: #489 garhighway
My read was that he made that deal as a political necessity, not out of love for that industry.
Picking a fight with Pharma is a good way to kill a bill.
Whether the tactic was wise or unwise I have no idea.
First off he said he was not going to deal with Big Pharma. Second, there is something wrong with the whole picture if you can say "Picking a fight with Pharma is a good way to kill a bill." Are you saying that our government is not in our control?
Where did I ever say he did anything out of a "love" of something. All I said was there are other people in that room who more concerned with the Insurance industry and lobbyists. Tell me that I'm wrong.
| 500 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:31:46pm |
re: #494 Diego
I never said you couldn't. It is a shame though, but your life. BTW: you DO know that people who hate don't live as long? Not that I mind..
it's an expression...we already have enough Freudian head hunters around here, we don't need another one
| 502 |
Girth Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:32:32pm |
re: #496 Silvergirl
Completely valid point. Who is posting here now that may fit that category? Or who supports the decision of the people he represents?
I don't like Harry Reid or John Boehner either, but I really don't care if people choose to re-elect them because they don't represent me. It's their business, not mine.
| 503 |
freetoken Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:32:36pm |
re: #496 Silvergirl
Well, Dodd is not my senator... My Senators are "the girls", as we might call them - Boxer and Feinstein.
| 504 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:32:37pm |
re: #491 drcordell
Think about it this way: Malpractice reform made sure that the 80% of Texans would do have insurance can see a doctor. The out-of-control malpractice system down there pre-reform was causing doctors to leave the state. I don't want to make malpractice claims impossible, but better standards and a reduction of jury awards would be a wise thing in my eyes.
| 505 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:33:18pm |
re: #498 garhighway
Old political adage: Everyone hates Congress and everyone loves their Congressman.
Then let's hear from some of them.
I want to hear about luuv for Chris Dodd.
| 506 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:33:29pm |
When it comes to health care reform I am a-political.
Really.
And it should be that way. IMHO
| 507 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:34:03pm |
re: #503 freetoken
Well, Dodd is not my senator... My Senators are "the girls", as we might call them - Boxer and Feinstein.
"Women!"
/Mandy mode off
| 508 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:35:19pm |
re: #503 freetoken
Well, Dodd is not my senator... My Senators are "the girls", as we might call them - Boxer and Feinstein.
I thought you were going to post a YouTube of "California Girls."
I wish they all could be California Girls . . .
:-)
| 509 |
sagehen Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:35:54pm |
re: #470 Racer X
I get the feeling its not the half you think.
I get the feeling it's way more than half.
| 510 |
drcordell Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:35:55pm |
re: #504 Dark_Falcon
Think about it this way: Malpractice reform made sure that the 80% of Texans would do have insurance can see a doctor. The out-of-control malpractice system down there pre-reform was causing doctors to leave the state. I don't want to make malpractice claims impossible, but better standards and a reduction of jury awards would be a wise thing in my eyes.
It's true, and I don't disagree with the fact that we do need tort reform. But to hold it up as some sort of magic bullet that will all of a sudden fix our healthcare system is absurd.
| 511 |
Girth Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:36:16pm |
I thought the Reps were big on not governing by polls...oh that's right, that's just when their shit is unpopular.
| 512 |
Randall Gross Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:36:41pm |
The Camp segment
| 513 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:36:57pm |
Shaking jowel alert...McConnell mumbling about fictitious consensus of Americans being against HCR.
| 514 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:37:09pm |
re: #510 drcordell
But to hold it up as some sort of magic bullet that will all of a sudden fix our healthcare system is absurd.
Indeed. It's like suggesting enemas are a cure for colon cancer..
| 515 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:37:11pm |
People screaming about Republicans and their scare tactics. R's have their scare tactics, D's have their own. The fact is, health care is expensive, and not everyone is going to get everything they need. Not for long at least. The worst case scenario is that we put in place a system where we try to give everyone everything, and the drain opens up that much more.
| 516 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:38:14pm |
re: #510 drcordell
It's true, and I don't disagree with the fact that we do need tort reform. But to hold it up as some sort of magic bullet that will all of a sudden fix our healthcare system is absurd.
That I'll upding, because I agree.
| 517 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:38:21pm |
re: #513 darthstar
Shaking jowel alert...McConnell mumbling about fictitious consensus of Americans being against HCR.
What do his jowls have to do with anything?
Jowlist.
| 518 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:38:25pm |
re: #515 cliffster
'There isn't enough for everyone' is a fairly lame stance.
| 519 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:38:45pm |
| 520 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:38:51pm |
re: #515 cliffster
People screaming about Republicans and their scare tactics. R's have their scare tactics, D's have their own. The fact is, health care is expensive, and not everyone is going to get everything they need. Not for long at least. The worst case scenario is that we put in place a system where we try to give everyone everything, and the drain opens up that much more.
Scare tactic? Well, yes, we do have one...
| 522 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:39:30pm |
re: #504 Dark_Falcon
Think about it this way: Malpractice reform made sure that the 80% of Texans would do have insurance can see a doctor. The out-of-control malpractice system down there pre-reform was causing doctors to leave the state. I don't want to make malpractice claims impossible, but better standards and a reduction of jury awards would be a wise thing in my eyes.
All of what you have said is true, and I too support tort reform on a national level so that doctors don't have to choose between treating difficult patient conditions and refusing to see them for fear of being sued out of business. However, tort reform in Texas has done virtually nothing to reduce costs! Obidicut has linked to several articles that explain the situation (particularly in McAllen) better than I can, but the basic point is that out-of-control medical malpractice suits account for less than 2% of the high cost of medical care in the USA. So let us not assume that malpractice reform will make things dramatically better when it comes time to pay the bills....
| 523 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:39:34pm |
| 524 |
sagehen Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:39:46pm |
re: #490 freetoken
That question is the responsibility of the people of his State, who seem to think he represents their state well enough to have returned him to office.
Sen Dodd is a lame duck. The people his state dislike him enough he's not even running for reelection.
| 525 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:39:57pm |
re: #518 Diego
'There isn't enough for everyone' is a fairly lame stance.
I don't think that is what Cliff said.
| 527 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:40:06pm |
re: #517 Silvergirl
What do his jowls have to do with anything?
Jowlist.
He's the Brit "the walrus" Hume of the Senate. He always looks like he's just bitten into a turd. Not a happy looking man.
| 528 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:40:21pm |
| 529 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:40:58pm |
re: #510 drcordell
Medical Malpractice awards as a percentage of the overall healthcare dollar are a very small percentage.
Defensive medicine dollars are more of a problem (IMO) than malpractice awards, but the two are so closely merged, they need to be counted as a single item.
I'm guessing that the two together add up to a substantial amount.
I don't know how much, and my perception is purely anecdotal. Anybody have something to shoot that perception down?
| 530 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:41:33pm |
re: #499 Walter L. Newton
First off he said he was not going to deal with Big Pharma. Second, there is something wrong with the whole picture if you can say "Picking a fight with Pharma is a good way to kill a bill." Are you saying that our government is not in our control?
Where did I ever say he did anything out of a "love" of something. All I said was there are other people in that room who more concerned with the Insurance industry and lobbyists. Tell me that I'm wrong.
Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you were implying that Obama was concerned about their welfare, not concerned about them as potential opponents.
I would respectfully suggest that anyone who is approaching HCR with the goal of getting something meaningful done has to spend some time thinking about which fights are winnable and which aren't. And my read of BHO is that he is ultimately a pragmatist who will make whatever deal he needs to make with whomever he needs to make it to get a minimally acceptable HCR bill passed. If it's Pharma, it's Pharma.
I also suspect that if he were asked to define his ideal HCR answer, and was unconstrained by politics, then his answer would be a broader and more comprehensive solution than anything we have seen. But politics is the art of the possible, and that means making deals.
Saying that this implies that our government is not in our control just misses the whole point.
| 531 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:41:44pm |
re: #527 darthstar
He's the Brit "the walrus" Hume of the Senate. He always looks like he's just bitten into a turd. Not a happy looking man.
That should be good for some updings.
| 532 |
freetoken Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:42:15pm |
re: #524 sagehen
But they've returned him in the past. Now, perhaps he is well past his "sell-by" date... There are I think 3 Repubs vying to represent Conn., including Linda McMahon, CFO of the WWE - she would make for an interesting Senator.
| 533 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:42:19pm |
Score card on health care reform:
Democratss gave up: Single payer, Public option, National exchange
Republicans gave up:
| 534 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:42:42pm |
re: #524 sagehen
Sen Dodd is a lame duck. The people his state dislike him enough he's not even running for reelection.
With a good pension and a sweeet mortgage, he doesn't need the work.
| 535 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:43:12pm |
re: #533 Diego
Score card on health care reform:
Democratss gave up: Single payer, Public option, National exchange
Republicans gave up:
In their defense, the Republicans have given up everything they've offered.
| 536 |
EastSider Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:43:24pm |
re: #533 Diego
Score card on health care reform:
Democratss gave up: Single payer, Public option, National exchange
Republicans gave up:
Which is hilarious considering who has 57/100 majority.
I love the positioning that passing something with 52 votes out of 100 is somehow not democratic.
| 537 |
sagehen Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:43:39pm |
re: #508 Silvergirl
I thought you were going to post a YouTube of "California Girls."
I wish they all could be California Girls . . .
:-)
| 539 |
Bipartite Gnomenclature Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:43:46pm |
re: #215 darthstar
It'll cost us a lot less to take care of your ass than it would if this bill didn't pass and you got sick.
re: #217 Walter L. Newton
You don't worry about my ass... ok? Take care of your own fucking ass.
That was his point. Note he said, "It'll cost us...".
'US', not 'you'.
| 541 |
jaunte Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:44:46pm |
re: #529 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Medical Malpractice awards as a percentage of the overall healthcare dollar are a very small percentage.
Defensive medicine dollars are more of a problem (IMO) than malpractice awards, but the two are so closely merged, they need to be counted as a single item.
I'm guessing that the two together add up to a substantial amount.
I don't know how much, and my perception is purely anecdotal. Anybody have something to shoot that perception down?
Here's one study of 800 physicians, projected nationally:
The results of Kessler and McClellan's study have been applied to current health care expenditure to approximate the cost of defensive medicine across the nation. These statistics applied to the nation's $1.4 trillion annual health care expenditure in 2005 (estimated to be over $2 trillion this fiscal year by President Obama), show that health care costs could have been reduced by $124 billion overall and government expenses by $50 billion per year. Adding the cost of defending malpractice cases, paying compensation, and covering additional administrative costs (a total of $29.4 billion), the average American family thus pays an additional $2,000 per year in health care just to cover the costs of defensive medicine. With the national health care costs expected to be over $4.5 trillion by 2017, the cost of defensive medicine to the average American could triple in the next 10 years.[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]
| 543 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:45:20pm |
| 544 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:45:24pm |
I also think we should outlaw those damn annoying prescription drug commercials. How many morons see that stupid commercial then run to their doctor for a barrage of unnecessary tests and procedures.
| 545 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:45:35pm |
re: #504 Dark_Falcon
Malpractice laws have not kept health care costs or malpractice costs down in Texas.
[Link: www.newyorker.com...]
| 546 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:45:47pm |
re: #538 Killgore Trout
Wow, they're still going at it.
when you think of how much (of our) money is on the table, I don't see it stopping...
| 547 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:45:54pm |
re: #528 Stanley Sea
Guess you have yours.
Reality is reality. The existing government programs are hemorrhaging money and as more people qualify for them, the problem will get worse. And worse. We are in a crisis situation as it is; we'll soon be completely upside down in our debt, and all people can do is make stupid partisan jokes about whatever side they are not on.
| 548 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:45:55pm |
re: #522 Surabaya Stew
All of what you have said is true, and I too support tort reform on a national level so that doctors don't have to choose between treating difficult patient conditions and refusing to see them for fear of being sued out of business. However, tort reform in Texas has done virtually nothing to reduce costs! Obidicut has linked to several articles that explain the situation (particularly in McAllen) better than I can, but the basic point is that out-of-control medical malpractice suits account for less than 2% of the high cost of medical care in the USA. So let us not assume that malpractice reform will make things dramatically better when it comes time to pay the bills...
The med mal reform push assumes that the reform automatically brings about a reduction in defensive medicine. That is purely a hypothesis and hasn't been borne out by any data anywhere.
| 549 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:45:57pm |
| 550 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:45:59pm |
re: #544 Racer X
I also think we should outlaw those damn annoying prescription drug commercials. How many morons see that stupid commercial then run to their doctor for a barrage of unnecessary tests and procedures.
Totally agree. Use that marketing money to create new drugs or lower prices for consumers.
| 552 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:46:46pm |
| 553 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:46:49pm |
re: #550 recusancy
Totally agree. Use that marketing money to create new drugs or lower prices for consumers.
down with free enterprise!
| 554 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:47:28pm |
| 555 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:47:34pm |
re: #533 Diego
Score card on health care reform:
Democratss gave up: Single payer, Public option, National exchange
Republicans gave up:
The GOP is craftily evil. Sneaky bastards. Bullying the gullible Dems so easily. Assholes.
| 556 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:47:43pm |
I think they should outlaw truck commercials that show them flying through the desert tearing shit up
| 558 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:48:07pm |
re: #538 Killgore Trout
Wow, they're still going at it.
Biden spiked the water pitchers with Viagra.
| 559 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:48:12pm |
re: #537 sagehen
[Video]
I was expecting The Beach Boys, but appreciate your find.
It's about as far removed from freetoken's California girls as you can get. True?
| 560 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:48:31pm |
re: #553 albusteve
down with free enterprise!
well when you dig deep enough you always get to the truth...
| 561 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:48:35pm |
re: #555 Racer X
It's not that, it's the Dems trying to get the Reps to work with them.
But the Reps are not interested in anything other than defeating Obama on every issue.
| 562 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:48:41pm |
re: #547 cliffster
Reality is reality. The existing government programs are hemorrhaging money and as more people qualify for them, the problem will get worse. And worse. We are in a crisis situation as it is; we'll soon be completely upside down in our debt, and all people can do is make stupid partisan jokes about whatever side they are not on.
I agree with you on the joking.
| 563 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:48:46pm |
re: #553 albusteve
down with free enterprise!
It's not free enterprise cause you need a prescription to buy the product they're selling.
| 564 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:49:07pm |
| 565 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:49:14pm |
re: #556 albusteve
I think they should outlaw truck commercials that show them flying through the desert tearing shit up
All commercials should feature the talking E*Trade baby. Every single one.
| 566 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:49:18pm |
re: #548 garhighway
Exactly. Moreover, whether or not the medicine was actually being practiced defensively in the first place is unproven.
The only real factor in play in malpractice is bedside manner. That is what will make people sue or not sue. It is not actually the care received. It is how the doctor presents themselves.
I am completely in favor of Gawande's suggestion around this, which would replace malpractice insurance with a common pool that doctors would pay into that would be used to compensate people for things that went wrong during their procedures. Very, very few people who are injured or hurt due to 'malpractice' (even the best doctor makes mistakes, so calling it malpractice is like calling a missed shot by a basketball player malpractice) actually ever sue and get any compensation whatsoever.
The system Gawande proposes would be more fair to doctors, to patients, and would only screw the ambulance-chasers. I'm fine with that.
| 567 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:49:32pm |
re: #542 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Went to a store, the sign said, "open 24 hours". Guy was locking the door. I said, "The sign says your open 24 hours." Guy looked at me and said, "Not in a row."
-Steven Wright
| 568 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:49:33pm |
re: #557 Izzyboy
Rangel has 2 hot chicks behind him... Hmm
well thanks to big pharma that is now possible ;)
| 569 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:49:48pm |
re: #563 recusancy
It's not free enterprise cause you need a prescription to buy the product they're selling.
so what?...you need to be 21 to buy beer
| 570 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:49:50pm |
| 571 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:49:57pm |
re: #554 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
There's cake?
| 574 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:50:21pm |
| 575 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:50:34pm |
| 576 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:50:42pm |
| 577 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:51:05pm |
re: #542 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Working alternate hours today, what I miss?
HCR summit is still going on. GOP has already sent people out to Fox to declare the summit a failure--before it's even over.
Highlights:
One Republican used an Etch-a-sketch analogy to argue for resetting.
McCain made some campaign-era comments, and had President Obama remind him that the election ended a year ago last November.
John Boehner proposed absolutely nothing, but was very orange in doing so.
Other than that, you didn't miss much.
Oh, and spacejesus is getting close to positive karma.
| 578 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:51:09pm |
re: #545 Obdicut
Malpractice laws have not kept health care costs or malpractice costs down in Texas.
[Link: www.newyorker.com...]
The representative FROM Texas just said it did go down - 18%?. Or you can believe an article from a writer in New Yorker magazine.
The truth is probably somewhere in between.
Malpractice costs suck big.
| 579 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:51:23pm |
re: #541 jaunte
re: #548 garhighway
The med mal reform push assumes that the reform automatically brings about a reduction in defensive medicine. That is purely a hypothesis and hasn't been borne out by any data anywhere.
That is what I suspect as well. On a anecdotal level, I have noticed that doctors and hospitals are far more proactive in ordering additional tests and other questionable procedures when I have had medical coverage. Not only because they want to CYA, but because they can get more money from the insurance companies that way. I suspect being paid by medical procedures ordered per patient rater than a salary is another leading reason for defensive medicine abuses.
| 580 |
Girth Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:51:37pm |
re: #565 garhighway
All commercials should feature the talking E*Trade baby. Every single one.
Sometimes that stuff doesn't work as intended...
I have never bought an Energizer battery after they started the bunny commercials way back when.
I hated that little fucker that much.
| 582 |
Only The Lurker Knows Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:52:01pm |
re: #544 Racer X
re: #550 recusancy
Big Pharma Spends More On Advertising Than Research And Development, Study Finds
| 583 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:52:08pm |
| 585 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:52:42pm |
re: #580 Girth
Sometimes that stuff doesn't work as intended...
I have never bought an Energizer battery after they started the bunny commercials way back when.
I hated that little fucker that much.
Now that is a grudge. Poor widdle bunny.
| 587 |
solomonpanting Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:53:03pm |
re: #533 Diego
Score card on health care reform:
Democratss gave up: Single payer, Public option, National exchange
Republicans gave up:
One road toward bankrupting the country?
Surely there must be several instances where a large government-run/administered program has led to decreased costs without rationing?
Some folks criticize religious folks for the blind/not blind faith invested in the supernatural.
What's to be said of the faith invested in a belief that there will be savings or no rationing this frickin' time? Hope? "I just know it'll work this time."
| 588 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:53:17pm |
I think we found someone older and more incoherent then McCain.
| 589 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:53:47pm |
re: #566 Obdicut
Exactly. Moreover, whether or not the medicine was actually being practiced defensively in the first place is unproven.
The only real factor in play in malpractice is bedside manner. That is what will make people sue or not sue. It is not actually the care received. It is how the doctor presents themselves.
I am completely in favor of Gawande's suggestion around this, which would replace malpractice insurance with a common pool that doctors would pay into that would be used to compensate people for things that went wrong during their procedures. Very, very few people who are injured or hurt due to 'malpractice' (even the best doctor makes mistakes, so calling it malpractice is like calling a missed shot by a basketball player malpractice) actually ever sue and get any compensation whatsoever.
The system Gawande proposes would be more fair to doctors, to patients, and would only screw the ambulance-chasers. I'm fine with that.
If you can get providers speaking frankly they will all tell you that defensive medicine is rampant.
But they wouldn't just stop because a bill passes. They have all seen lots of examples of tort reform passing and then being struck down by the courts. (Happened in Illinois last month.) So there is zero trust that a legislative remedy would be meaningful and lasting. And they have all grown up as doctors ordering the extra tests, and those habits are very hard to unlearn.
So the logical underpinning of the "tort reform will reduce costs" statement is missing.
| 590 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:53:48pm |
re: #578 Racer X
That 'writer' is one of the top surgeons in the US, who's written several books on the practice of medicine. So yes, I trust him more than a politician.
| 591 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:54:11pm |
| 592 |
sagehen Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:54:21pm |
re: #559 Silvergirl
I was expecting The Beach Boys, but appreciate your find.
It's about as far removed from freetoken's California girls as you can get. True?
I dunno, they're both skinny, and sort of cute for their age group...
| 593 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:54:30pm |
re: #530 garhighway
[snip]
Saying that this implies that our government is not in our control just misses the whole point.
I would say, in the over all scheme of thing, that point is more important than anything. It's the whole reason that DC has become a three-class society... kleptocrats, plutocrats and autocrats.
Every politician in DC falls into one of those categories, and that's what they are beholden to, not us.
| 594 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:54:46pm |
re: #589 garhighway
What I meant was that-- practicing medicine to make more money by ordering tests that aren't really necessary and practicing defensive medicine look very, very similar. So there's also the cultural attitude amongst doctors in that regard, as well.
| 595 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:54:50pm |
re: #580 Girth
Sometimes that stuff doesn't work as intended...
I have never bought an Energizer battery after they started the bunny commercials way back when.
I hated that little fucker that much.
The whole talking babies thing has never appealed to me in any way shape or form. Definately not a way to attract my attention.
| 597 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:55:08pm |
re: #582 Bubblehead II
re: #550 recusancy
Big Pharma Spends More On Advertising Than Research And Development, Study Finds
again, if the gubermint would extend patents the pharma companies would not have to make back their investments so quickly to be profitable.
| 598 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:55:14pm |
| 599 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:55:21pm |
re: #579 Surabaya Stew
I can not potentially disagree with that.
| 600 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:55:24pm |
re: #561 Diego
It's not that, it's the Dems trying to get the Reps to work with them.
But the Reps are not interested in anything other than defeating Obama on every issue.
Well, that is one reason I guess.
The other is they might want to see something that meets their constituents desires.
| 601 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:55:37pm |
Following Ezra Klein's twitter:
If polls are so important to the Republicans, why aren't they for the public option?
| 602 |
hokiepride Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:55:43pm |
re: #577 darthstar
So the fact that the campaign is over means that Obama does not have to keep his promises? After all the "change" that was promised it is going to be business as usual again eh?
I am so surprised...NOT
| 603 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:56:32pm |
| 604 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:56:56pm |
re: #595 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I'm not getting Nationwide insurance, but the "World's greatest spokesperson in the World" commercials have got me.
Some things just kind of hit me funny.
| 605 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:57:20pm |
re: #603 Diego
You're saying they gave up what people what to give people what they want??
The public option has strong support. It's not in either bill.
it was dropped for lack of support...
| 606 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:57:30pm |
Boehner Rips Health Care Plan In Statement Sent Mid-Summit
He's still sitting at the table. Did he write this last night?
| 607 |
Izzyboy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:57:46pm |
re: #598 recusancy
She's really old? Looks like she's passing out in some session photos.
| 608 |
Girth Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:57:51pm |
LOL...Pelosi's trying to be complimentary to Coburn and insults all the other Reps in the process...swing and a miss Nancy.
| 609 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:57:55pm |
re: #602 hokiepride
So the fact that the campaign is over means that Obama does not have to keep his promises? After all the "change" that was promised it is going to be business as usual again eh?
I am so surprised...NOT
President Obama is keeping his promises. He hasn't completed every single one of them, and he's fallen behind on others (DADT, DOMA, Guantanamo). McCain was just making noise this morning. He deserved to get mocked into submission.
| 610 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:57:59pm |
re: #582 Bubblehead II
re: #550 recusancy
Big Pharma Spends More On Advertising Than Research And Development, Study Finds
Hmm. I wonder why an aspirin costs $8 each in the hospital? I wonder why that new heart drug costs $57 a tablet?
| 611 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:58:12pm |
re: #605 brookly red
Not at all. Lack of support in gevernment, because it made the fight harder, but it has VERY strong public support. And not jsut Democrats.
| 612 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:58:33pm |
Boehner and McConnell got the oh shit look on their faces when Pelosi just called them out on lying.
| 613 |
sagehen Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:58:36pm |
re: #579 Surabaya Stew
re: #548 garhighway
That is what I suspect as well. On a anecdotal level, I have noticed that doctors and hospitals are far more proactive in ordering additional tests and other questionable procedures when I have had medical coverage. Not only because they want to CYA, but because they can get more money from the insurance companies that way. I suspect being paid by medical procedures ordered per patient rater than a salary is another leading reason for defensive medicine abuses.
For just this reason, some states don't allow doctors or their spouses to have any financial interest in labs or imaging centers... it's astonishing how many less blood tests and cat scans and x-rays you need in those states.
| 614 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:58:38pm |
republicans looking stunned and confused.
| 615 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:58:51pm |
And now Nancy just pisses all over the floor.
Nice fucking job.
| 616 |
jaunte Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:58:58pm |
re: #545 Obdicut
Malpractice laws have not kept health care costs or malpractice costs down in Texas.
[Link: www.newyorker.com...]
That's an excellent article. No matter who pays, the ethics and motivation of the providers make a huge difference in overall costs.
| 617 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:58:59pm |
re: #611 Diego
Not at all. Lack of support in gevernment, because it made the fight harder, but it has VERY strong public support. And not jsut Democrats.
OK if you say so...
| 618 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:59:08pm |
re: #593 Walter L. Newton
I would say, in the over all scheme of thing, that point is more important than anything. It's the whole reason that DC has become a three-class society... kleptocrats, plutocrats and autocrats.
Every politician in DC falls into one of those categories, and that's what they are beholden to, not us.
few people here care what you say...notice the depth of political trust and the irrational slamming of one pol while elevating another?...as if govt and politics is a reasonable and functional system...people are deep in and actually believe that their candidate can make a difference or their ideology will be represented...heh, what a waste of time and emotion
| 619 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:59:26pm |
re: #615 Racer X
And now Nancy just pisses all over the floor.
Nice fucking job.
She's calling them out on their lies. Gloves are off. Finally.
| 620 |
freetoken Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:59:31pm |
re: #538 Killgore Trout
Wow, they're still going at it.
The Republicans really shouldn't get in the same room as President Obama - he makes them look bad. (These days that doesn't take much effort.)
What is being shown on TV is the President of the United States wanting to find some sort of compromise to tackle the "health care" problem. Therefore, anyone who is against this effort really is being portrayed as the "bad guy".
| 621 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:59:36pm |
re: #593 Walter L. Newton
I would say, in the over all scheme of thing, that point is more important than anything. It's the whole reason that DC has become a three-class society... kleptocrats, plutocrats and autocrats.
Every politician in DC falls into one of those categories, and that's what they are beholden to, not us.
I say that just because the just task is hard isn't a reason to try.
Is the system a mess? Of course it is. Too much money is in the game. Do you have some thoughts on how to fix it? Love to hear them.
But this is today. We have the system we have and the Congress that we have. I say that trying to do some good is worth the pain and aggravation. I think BHO is trying to do good here. He may succeed or he may fail. He has and will make mistakes in the process. But better to try.
| 622 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:59:52pm |
| 623 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:00:25pm |
re: #617 brookly red
I don't say so, the polls do. Asked if people support 'health care reform' they say no. Ask if they like the different parts, including the public option, they say yes. Look it up, just not on Faux, Drudge, or any other Conservative site.
| 624 |
hokiepride Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:01:20pm |
re: #609 darthstar
What promise has he held?
1) Iraq war over by 2009 - troops home - unkept
2) end to Bush era anti-terror measures - unkept
3) no lobbyists - unkept
4) close GBC - unkept
5) control deficits - unkept
"falling behind" is a nice way of saying "he failed". And McCain was right on to call him out on it
| 625 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:01:36pm |
re: #619 darthstar
She's calling them out on their lies. Gloves are off. Finally.
If Nancy Pelosi says someone is lying, then I assume they are telling the truth.
| 626 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:02:44pm |
re: #625 Dark_Falcon
If the other person is Boehner, that's not the best assumption in the world, and I don't like Pelosi one whit.
| 627 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:02:49pm |
re: #624 hokiepride
What promise has he held?
1) Iraq war over by 2009 - troops home - unkept
2) end to Bush era anti-terror measures - unkept
3) no lobbyists - unkept
4) close GBC - unkept
5) control deficits - unkept"falling behind" is a nice way of saying "he failed". And McCain was right on to call him out on it
Doing what was necessary to avoid a depression comes to mind.
| 629 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:02:56pm |
re: #620 freetoken
The Republicans really shouldn't get in the same room as President Obama - he makes them look bad. (These days that doesn't take much effort.)
What is being shown on TV is the President of the United States wanting to find some sort of compromise to tackle the "health care" problem. Therefore, anyone who is against this effort really is being portrayed as the "bad guy".
it's all meaningless...another Hopenhagen
| 630 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:03:03pm |
re: #455 Walter L. Newton
No, I don't think it's a birthright, but I will take it, proudly.
Good for you, however you view it. I had to take public assistance once, and doing so literally saved my life. I could not have secured access to the tests and procedures needed without it.
Maybe try to think of it as a crossover right, something the other side of the political fence is responsible for maintaining in case of emergency. For instance I certainly enjoy the hell out of the second amendment, but my side has sadly ceded that territory to the opposition, so I look to conservatives to defend the arsenal.
| 631 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:03:03pm |
re: #621 garhighway
I say that just because the just task is hard isn't a reason to try.
Is the system a mess? Of course it is. Too much money is in the game. Do you have some thoughts on how to fix it? Love to hear them.
But this is today. We have the system we have and the Congress that we have. I say that trying to do some good is worth the pain and aggravation. I think BHO is trying to do good here. He may succeed or he may fail. He has and will make mistakes in the process. But better to try.
No... I don't think any of them are trying to do good for anyone but the special interest they are beholden to. Period. If something "good" comes out of any machination in DC, it's secondary to the real purpose.
I have a very simple answer, vote EVERY incumbent out of office as soon as possible, with a very public stance on why they are being voted out. Every citizen needs to put partisan politics aside for at least two election cycles and go ahead and vote party, but only vote new candidate in.
Right from the local level and up.
| 632 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:03:20pm |
re: #619 darthstar
She's calling them out on their lies. Gloves are off. Finally.
And yet the dems gave up all kinds of shit, and the the reps gave up nothing. And now they are pissed off at Nancy. Again.
OK. Go it alone then. Good luck.
| 633 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:03:21pm |
re: #627 darthstar
Well, I'm pretty depressed. It ain't workin'.
/
| 634 |
hokiepride Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:03:43pm |
re: #627 darthstar
How does keeping Bush era terror policies alive keep depression at bay?
| 635 |
freetoken Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:04:05pm |
In this made-for-TV mellow-drama, the President is the protagonist and the GOP plays the antagonist.
On American TV, protagonists are usually (save for a few dour soap-operas) the "winners".
| 636 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:04:06pm |
re: #625 Dark_Falcon
If Nancy Pelosi says someone is lying, then I assume they are telling the truth.
In this case she's right. The Republicans have been relying on dishonest talking points and they're taking a beating for it. That's why they do so bad at these televised summits. They can get away with it on Fox News but when there's a real debate their arguments fall apart pretty quick.
| 638 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:04:22pm |
re: #631 Walter L. Newton
I have a very simple answer, vote EVERY incumbent out of office as soon as possible, with a very public stance on why they are being voted out.
So what's your answer to fixing anything, again?
That's not a plan that actually achieves anything. You still need, then, to get good, competent people elected.
| 639 |
darthstar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:04:23pm |
Sorry folks...I've got a meeting right now...back later.
| 640 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:04:30pm |
re: #623 Diego
I don't say so, the polls do. Asked if people support 'health care reform' they say no. Ask if they like the different parts, including the public option, they say yes. Look it up, just not on Faux, Drudge, or any other Conservative site.
so how about a national public referendum, an up or down vote?
| 642 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:04:48pm |
re: #627 darthstar
Doing what was necessary to avoid a depression comes to mind.
TARP was a Bush thing
| 643 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:04:50pm |
It's honestly astonishing to me how different a conversation seems from one side of the aisle to the other. Two dudes look at this, and there'll be no disagreement about whether she looks good or not.
On the other hand, one person thinks that Obama owned the GOP today, and simply can't believe someone could see it any other way. Another person thinks he looked like an idiot, and only a left wing hack would think otherwise.
This debate is polarized beyond rescue.
| 644 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:04:55pm |
re: #640 brookly red
How about getting the Republicans to agree to it?
| 645 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:05:00pm |
re: #635 freetoken
In this made-for-TV mellow-drama, the President is the protagonist and the GOP plays the antagonist.
On American TV, protagonists are usually (save for a few dour soap-operas) the "winners".
I will say Obama is doing a good job in this format.
| 646 |
Only The Lurker Knows Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:05:13pm |
re: #610 Racer X
Well with the average cost for a 30 second spot on national TV at prime time at $122, 133 they have to recoup that money somehow.
| 647 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:05:35pm |
| 649 |
hokiepride Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:06:02pm |
re: #642 albusteve
exactly he has copied so many of Bush era policies after HopeNChange. McCain was right on target.
| 651 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:06:46pm |
re: #643 cliffster
It's honestly astonishing to me how different a conversation seems from one side of the aisle to the other. Two dudes look at this, and there'll be no disagreement about whether she looks good or not.
On the other hand, one person thinks that Obama owned the GOP today, and simply can't believe someone could see it any other way. Another person thinks he looked like an idiot, and only a left wing hack would think otherwise.
This debate is polarized beyond rescue.
Quite Concur.
| 652 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:06:50pm |
re: #630 goddamnedfrank
Good for you, however you view it. I had to take public assistance once, and doing so literally saved my life. I could not have secured access to the tests and procedures needed without it.
Maybe try to think of it as a crossover right, something the other side of the political fence is responsible for maintaining in case of emergency. For instance I certainly enjoy the hell out of the second amendment, but my side has sadly ceded that territory to the opposition, so I look to conservatives to defend the arsenal.
It absolutely amazes me that you want me to take it a certain way. You're not as concerned with me taking it, you're more concerned with how I politically view the process and how my taking fits with your political proclivities.
Guess what, if I need to take it, I will, but that will never stop me from exposing the left for what it is.
| 653 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:07:15pm |
re: #644 Diego
How about getting the Republicans to agree to it?
I am a registered Democrat from NYC & I don't want it... why would I want to do that?
| 654 |
Girth Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:07:22pm |
re: #636 Killgore Trout
In this case she's right. The Republicans have been relying on dishonest talking points and they're taking a beating for it. That's why they do so bad at these televised summits. They can get away with it on Fox News but when there's a real debate their arguments fall apart pretty quick.
I agree, but it was tactless. The Speaker shouldn't say these things, she should get one of her leaders to do it.
| 655 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:07:24pm |
re: #643 cliffster
It's honestly astonishing to me how different a conversation seems from one side of the aisle to the other. Two dudes look at this, and there'll be no disagreement about whether she looks good or not.
On the other hand, one person thinks that Obama owned the GOP today, and simply can't believe someone could see it any other way. Another person thinks he looked like an idiot, and only a left wing hack would think otherwise.
This debate is polarized beyond rescue.
a lot of people don't like BO and for good reason...BO the Polarizer
| 656 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:07:50pm |
re: #631 Walter L. Newton
No... I don't think any of them are trying to do good for anyone but the special interest they are beholden to. Period. If something "good" comes out of any machination in DC, it's secondary to the real purpose.
I respectfully disagree.
| 657 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:08:04pm |
re: #643 cliffster
This debate is polarized beyond rescue.
Not really. There are people who always think their side is looking good. Yesterday the Paulians were thrilled with Ron Paul's conspiracy theory rant but the rest of the world laughed at him. This debate does sort things out. The side that makes their case better will win. This stuff does effect public opnion.
| 658 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:08:16pm |
re: #653 brookly red
You don't want a public option? Simply put: open the insurance Congress gets to everyone? Why ever not??
| 659 |
ShaunP Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:08:59pm |
re: #652 Walter L. Newton
Guess what, if I need to take it, I will, but that will never stop me from exposing the left for what it is.
Leftists are evil until I need what they are offering...
//
| 660 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:09:09pm |
re: #640 brookly red
so how about a national public referendum, an up or down vote?
Requires a constitutional amendment to be meaningful. Good luck with that.
| 662 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:09:29pm |
re: #631 Walter L. Newton
No... I don't think any of them are trying to do good for anyone but the special interest they are beholden to. Period. If something "good" comes out of any machination in DC, it's secondary to the real purpose.
You are 100% correct
| 663 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:09:49pm |
| 664 |
Izzyboy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:10:03pm |
Obama is making sense, I don't understand... :/
| 665 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:10:16pm |
re: #658 Diego
You don't want a public option? Simply put: open the insurance Congress gets to everyone? Why ever not??
I have traveled comrade...
| 667 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:10:33pm |
re: #638 Obdicut
So what's your answer to fixing anything, again?
That's not a plan that actually achieves anything. You still need, then, to get good, competent people elected.
Fine... I'll add your amendment...
"I have a very simple answer, vote EVERY incumbent out of office as soon as possible, with a very public stance on why they are being voted out... and then, get good, competent people elected."
Works for me. Works for you?
| 668 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:11:02pm |
re: #659 ShaunP
Leftists are evil until I need what they are offering...
//
Has a lefty ever cashed a government check that arrived in the mail from a righty administration?
| 669 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:11:06pm |
re: #658 Diego
And Secret Service protection for every American!
| 670 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:11:15pm |
| 671 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:11:16pm |
re: #655 albusteve
a lot of people don't like BO and for good reason...BO the Polarizer
Have you felt that his behavior today has been polarizing?
| 672 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:11:42pm |
re: #605 brookly red
it was dropped for lack of support...
It was dropped because the Republicans successfully turned it into a "catch-phrase" that meant socialism and evil to the average idiot uninformed American. Really it is about our only hope of actually reigning in the neverending 10-25% per year jumps in healthcare costs.
Nothing we do to try to fix healthcare means a damn thing if we cannot stop the explosive growth in costs that go far beyond those warranted by inflation. Medicare and Medicaid cannot be paid for if costs continue to skyrocket without end. It is really very simple, either we find a way to control costs now or we abandon our promises to all of those who paid into the system and tell them that if they get sick then they just have to die without help.
The elderly will still flood the emergency rooms and cost us untold billions so that really isn't an option I.R.L. anyway. So what do suggest we do?
Besides bitching about someone wanting to fix things that is...
| 673 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:11:58pm |
re: #661 MandyManners
What a flaming narcissist.
Agreed. Obama is a man truly in love with the sound of his own voice. But look on the bright side: Obama is eating up Glen Beck's airtime. Anything that keeps Beck off the air isn't all bad.
| 674 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:12:38pm |
re: #659 ShaunP
Leftists are evil until I need what they are offering...
//
Anything wrong with that? If the left wants to offer me stuff, and I honestly need it, do you have some stipulation that I have to agree with the left before I accept what they set up for the citizens of the country.
Kind of hypocritical if that is what you are suggesting.
| 675 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:12:42pm |
re: #652 Walter L. Newton
It absolutely amazes me that you want me to take it a certain way. You're not as concerned with me taking it, you're more concerned with how I politically view the process and how my taking fits with your political proclivities.
Guess what, if I need to take it, I will, but that will never stop me from exposing the left for what it is.
Yes, how dare people try to influence each others views on a political blog. The horror. We should assume that you are "exposing the left" for simply existential reasons?
| 676 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:12:45pm |
re: #76 Killgore Trout
Biden may be there just to remind us of how important Obamas health is.
//
| 677 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:12:51pm |
re: #660 garhighway
Requires a constitutional amendment to be meaningful. Good luck with that.
I have no desire for it I was merely responding to another poster who suggested that there was wide spread support for the public option... the only people I have ever meet that support it are already on it.
| 678 |
sagehen Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:12:58pm |
re: #624 hokiepride
What promise has he held?
1) Iraq war over by 2009 - troops home - unkept
2) end to Bush era anti-terror measures - unkept
3) no lobbyists - unkept
4) close GBC - unkept
5) control deficits - unkept"falling behind" is a nice way of saying "he failed". And McCain was right on to call him out on it
promises kept 96
compromise 33
promises broken 16
stalled 84
in the works 272
| 679 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:13:45pm |
re: #649 hokiepride
exactly he has copied so many of Bush era policies after HopeNChange. McCain was right on target.
If Obama is copying Bush era policies, why isn't the GOP thanking him for it?
| 680 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:14:25pm |
re: #671 garhighway
Have you felt that his behavior today has been polarizing?
can't comment...I've not seen much of it...but he's a rookie with an oversized mandate to match his ego...he has to do this show, he has to drag himself off the ropes and get some mojo back...that's what this conference is all about, BO and his HCR...why press so hard to pass a shitty bill? think about that
| 681 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:14:39pm |
re: #677 brookly red
That is not correct. The polls, many of them, prove it. Look them up, please.
And you don't know anyone on it as there isn't any 'public option'. The public option isn't Medicaid or Medicare.
| 682 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:14:39pm |
re: #250 darthstar
Where did you hear that?
| 683 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:15:03pm |
re: #666 Diego
And..?
and I would prefer to never have to deal with government run health care... just my opinion.
| 684 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:15:25pm |
re: #667 Walter L. Newton
No. That's not a plan. That's pablum. How do you get the good, competent people elected? That's the actual problem.
It's easy to say 'vote em all out'. That takes nothing. Figuring out how you get the good people elected-- that's the actual challenge.
| 685 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:15:49pm |
re: #672 ausador
It was dropped because the Republicans successfully turned it into a "catch-phrase" that meant socialism and evil to the average idiot uninformed American.
Interesting.
Americans are idiots and uninformed. Yet Republicans successfully informed them that health care equals socialism.
Perhaps Dems can inform those idiots of their own ideas?
Nah, they're idiots.
| 686 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:15:56pm |
re: #679 Surabaya Stew
If Obama is copying Bush era policies, why isn't the GOP thanking him for it?
Because they are committed to portraying him as an evil failure. Any Republican who thanked Obama for anything would face a chant of "RINO, RINO, RINO!".
| 687 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:15:57pm |
| 688 |
Izzyboy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:15:59pm |
re: #680 albusteve
can't comment...I've not seen much of it...but he's a rookie with an oversized mandate to match his ego...he has to do this show, he has to drag himself off the ropes and get some mojo back...that's what this conference is all about, BO and his HCR...why press so hard to pass a shitty bill? think about that
/laugh
| 689 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:16:00pm |
re: #240 SpaceJesus
Utah is trying to make it so that women can be charged with homicide if they have a miscarriage and it appears to have been an intentional miscarriage (ie not wearing a seatbelt, having an abusive partner, or "falling down the stairs").
hello darkages
[Link: www.sltrib.com...]
Soon to follow, laws against witchcraft.
| 690 |
recusancy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:16:01pm |
re: #680 albusteve
can't comment...I've not seen much of it...but he's a rookie with an oversized mandate to match his ego...he has to do this show, he has to drag himself off the ropes and get some mojo back...that's what this conference is all about, BO and his HCR...why press so hard to pass a shitty bill? think about that
Somebody should make a cartoon out of you. It'd kind of be like Shit My Dad Says. I'd watch it.
| 691 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:16:07pm |
re: #675 goddamnedfrank
Yes, how dare people try to influence each others views on a political blog. The horror. We should assume that you are "exposing the left" for simply existential reasons?
Yes. I have nothing else to do right now between emailing resumes and eating grapes.
| 692 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:16:07pm |
re: #683 brookly red
I deal with it every week. I see my doctor, he tells me what's wrong and what to do about it. I've never seen anyone from the government and I never will. It works.
| 693 |
Izzyboy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:17:37pm |
| 694 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:17:54pm |
re: #676 Rightwingconspirator
Biden may be there just to remind us of how important Obamas health is.
//
Oh snap!
| 695 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:17:56pm |
re: #681 Diego
That is not correct. The polls, many of them, prove it. Look them up, please.
And you don't know anyone on it as there isn't any 'public option'. The public option isn't Medicaid or Medicare.
Sorry, with all due respect I ain't buying what you are selling.
| 696 |
wrenchwench Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:18:17pm |
It has happened.
SpaceJesus has positive Karma.
Maybe they will pass a health care bill.
| 697 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:18:21pm |
re: #672 ausador
It was dropped because the Republicans successfully turned it into a "catch-phrase" that meant socialism and evil to the average idiot uninformed American. Really it is about our only hope of actually reigning in the neverending 10-25% per year jumps in healthcare costs.Nothing we do to try to fix healthcare means a damn thing if we cannot stop the explosive growth in costs that go far beyond those warranted by inflation. Medicare and Medicaid cannot be paid for if costs continue to skyrocket without end. It is really very simple, either we find a way to control costs now or we abandon our promises to all of those who paid into the system and tell them that if they get sick then they just have to die without help.
The elderly will still flood the emergency rooms and cost us untold billions so that really isn't an option I.R.L. anyway. So what do suggest we do?
Besides bitching about someone wanting to fix things that is...
so they did...excellent strategy to kill a bad bill...even a large number of donks felt the same way...the GOP has done exactly the right thing and there are plenty of sore losers who expected the Golden Boy to walk through this thing with little opposition...he wildly miscalculated, but blame it on some phony crap all you want...he blew it from the beginning
| 698 |
hokiepride Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:18:25pm |
re: #679 Surabaya Stew
You got it backwards. He should be thanking the GOP instead of criticizing them
| 699 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:18:37pm |
re: #680 albusteve
can't comment...I've not seen much of it...but he's a rookie with an oversized mandate to match his ego...he has to do this show, he has to drag himself off the ropes and get some mojo back...that's what this conference is all about, BO and his HCR...why press so hard to pass a shitty bill? think about that
My point exactly. He's polarizing to those who haven't listened.
The IDEA of BHO might be polarizing. His actual words? Not so much. He has been the soul of reasonableness.
| 700 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:18:46pm |
re: #696 wrenchwench
It has happened.
SpaceJesus has positive Karma.
Maybe they will pass a health care bill.
I'll take that as a sign.
| 701 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:18:47pm |
re: #695 brookly red
I'm not selling. Polling shows that support for public option is between 55-60%. Simple as.
| 702 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:19:00pm |
re: #684 Obdicut
No. That's not a plan. That's pablum. How do you get the good, competent people elected? That's the actual problem.
It's easy to say 'vote em all out'. That takes nothing. Figuring out how you get the good people elected-- that's the actual challenge.
Then stick with the status quo if you want, I won't.
| 703 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:19:47pm |
Hmmmm...kind of a stern warning. If the Republicans continue to refuse to participate they're going to get steamrolled.
| 704 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:19:50pm |
re: #701 Diego
I'm not selling. Polling shows that support for public option is between 55-60%. Simple as.
then why was it dropped from both bills? because it is popular?
| 705 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:19:56pm |
re: #686 Dark_Falcon
Because they are committed to portraying him as an evil failure. Any Republican who thanked Obama for anything would face a chant of "RINO, RINO, RINO!".
Absolutely true, I'm afraid. While nobody expected Steele and Beck to kiss Obama's hand, their total lack of recognition and respect when he continues Bush's policies is shameful.
| 706 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:20:02pm |
re: #657 Killgore Trout
Not really. There are people who always think their side is looking good. Yesterday the Paulians were thrilled with Ron Paul's conspiracy theory rant but the rest of the world laughed at him. This debate does sort things out. The side that makes their case better will win. This stuff does effect public opnion.
That's what I mean - the number of people who always think their side is looking good is extremely high, especially in this debate. Your optimism is nice, but I don't actually think anything is getting sorted out. I don't think 99% of people going to the polls are going to think back on today (or even watched today). And I don't think the people in the room have anyone's interest in mind, other than their own power/money grab.
| 707 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:20:24pm |
re: #696 wrenchwench
It has happened.
SpaceJesus has positive Karma.
Maybe they will pass a health care bill.
Who put him over the top?
| 708 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:20:25pm |
re: #696 wrenchwench
It has happened.
SpaceJesus has positive Karma.
Maybe they will pass a health care bill.
The Seventh Seal has been broken. Welcome the End of Days.
/
| 709 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:20:50pm |
re: #704 brookly red
Because it's too difficult to have AND get GOP support, which was the goal.
Not a goal I feel is needed, or at all possible. The GOP isn't interested, at all.
| 710 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:20:51pm |
re: #696 wrenchwench
It has happened.
SpaceJesus has positive Karma.
Maybe they will pass a health care bill.
I thought Cato said when SJ's karma goes positive it's a sign of the end times. So passing the health care bill . . .
| 712 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:21:08pm |
re: #684 Obdicut
No. That's not a plan. That's pablum. How do you get the good, competent people elected? That's the actual problem.
It's easy to say 'vote em all out'. That takes nothing. Figuring out how you get the good people elected-- that's the actual challenge.
the good competent people don't want anything to do with the feds...it's a black hole of corruption, pandering, and inner sanctum cliques....looks good on paper once in a while...these lifers are very good at that
| 713 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:21:30pm |
re: #696 wrenchwench
It has happened.
SpaceJesus has positive Karma.
Maybe they will pass a health care bill.
Yes.
On a thread where he admitted to lying to people when they called their congressman and he answered the phone.
Cool.
| 714 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:21:37pm |
re: #704 brookly red
then why was it dropped from both bills? because it is popular?
The majority of people polled want it, but their Reps don't.
| 715 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:21:44pm |
re: #260 SpaceJesus
the difference is that this law applies to women throughout their entire pregnancy. the iowa one only applied to third trimesters i believe
One side effect of that is going to be that women are going to be reluctant to seek prenatal care, especially if they've miscarried in the past.
Undoubtedly, though, not having gone to your prenatal appointments will be used as evidence of negligent homicide.
Words cannot express how creepy and evil this is.
| 716 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:21:49pm |
re: #709 Diego
Because it's too difficult to have AND get GOP support, which was the goal.
Not a goal I feel is needed, or at all possible. The GOP isn't interested, at all.
and neither am I.
| 717 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:22:18pm |
re: #716 brookly red
Good for you. That is why it was called an 'option'.
| 718 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:22:23pm |
re: #702 Walter L. Newton
That has nothing to do with what I said, Walter. In fact, you'd just get a new status quo. You'd vote them all out, and the same political machine would be in place, the system would be the same, and you'd have no reason to believe their replacements would change the status quo.
"Vote them all out" is a dumb mantra that presents no solution whatsoever.
| 719 |
wrenchwench Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:22:25pm |
re: #707 Surabaya Stew
Who put him over the top?
It was a team effort.
I don't know who made the score +1. It was already +2 when I looked.
| 720 |
Digital Display Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:22:34pm |
re: #708 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
The Seventh Seal has been broken. Welcome the End of Days.
/
Don't confuse me with facts.. My mind's already cluttered enough
| 721 |
MandyManners Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:22:50pm |
re: #691 Walter L. Newton
Yes. I have nothing else to do right now between emailing resumes and eating grapes.
Can I peel one for you?
| 722 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:23:00pm |
That was interesting. I didn't watch the whole thing but much of what I saw was pretty informative.
| 723 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:23:13pm |
re: #714 Stanley Sea
The majority of people polled want it, but their Reps don't.
well I guess they need new reps... this is an election year let's see what happens shall we?
| 724 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:23:29pm |
re: #690 recusancy
Somebody should make a cartoon out of you. It'd kind of be like Shit My Dad Says. I'd watch it.
and a fine reply indeed....do you have a point?
| 725 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:23:41pm |
re: #703 Killgore Trout
Hmmm...kind of a stern warning. If the Republicans continue to refuse to participate they're going to get steamrolled.
Well, at least he acknowledges the political pressure that make sit hard for the GOP to move. Now, what can be done to ease that pressure?
| 726 |
Diego Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:23:47pm |
I was excellent. The GOP had all their talking points in a row and Obama knocked them down time after time.
| 727 |
Izzyboy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:24:09pm |
re: #722 Killgore Trout
That was interesting. I didn't watch the whole thing but much of what I saw was pretty informative.
Plus I didn't understand some of it but I agree.
| 728 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:24:11pm |
re: #725 Dark_Falcon
Well, at least he acknowledges the political pressure that make sit hard for the GOP to move. Now, what can be done to ease that pressure?
Truth panels.
| 729 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:24:33pm |
re: #726 Diego
I was excellent. The GOP had all their talking points in a row and Obama knocked them down time after time.
I assume you were quoting Obama. You left off the quotation marks.
| 730 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:24:46pm |
OT: I need to get a dessert together tonight and would rather not make it a big project, but want it to be more than passable. Who has favorite dessert recipes for pulling a rabbit out of a hat?
| 731 |
avanti Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:24:46pm |
re: #708 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
The Seventh Seal has been broken. Welcome the End of Days.
/
Welcome to positive Karma, you've come a long way.
| 732 |
Joanne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:24:49pm |
Personally, I don't understand why people are so intent on keeping insurance companies are they are. They do little more than administrate payment, at about a 10% higher cost than the government (Medicare). They do not do any innovation. They do not even pay out 80% of premiums in care.
I am much more concerned about profits of doctors, hospitals, equipment and pharma companies, and other companies which actually do something to contribute to healthcare.
Insurance companies do nothing but make payments. Their profits come from denials. They are not innovators in anything (other than ways to deny coverage).
This is not any kind of takeover of any kind of care. I would definitely support government takeover of payments to the actual providers. Ask the doctors. They always get reimbursement from Medicare. They always have to play games with insurance companies.
What am I missing?
| 733 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:25:09pm |
re: #698 hokiepride
You got it backwards. He should be thanking the GOP instead of criticizing them
heh...true enough, for Mr Flexible Compromiser
| 734 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:25:20pm |
re: #698 hokiepride
You got it backwards. He should be thanking the GOP instead of criticizing them
Considering all the hash words and bad feeling on all sides, Obama thanking the GOP (and vice versa) is out of the question for now. However, what's up with the total lack of recognition when Obama does something that the GOp agrees with and Obama's base is against? Methinks (and so a growing number of folks) that when Rush stated he wanted Obama to fail before he even took office, the GOP leadership collectively decided to do everything possible to make that happen, regardless of the harm that it does to the rest of us in the meantime.
| 736 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:25:35pm |
re: #718 Obdicut
That has nothing to do with what I said, Walter. In fact, you'd just get a new status quo. You'd vote them all out, and the same political machine would be in place, the system would be the same, and you'd have no reason to believe their replacements would change the status quo.
"Vote them all out" is a dumb mantra that presents no solution whatsoever.
Maybe you are right. Then, what would you suggest? This is not a matter of just finding the right people, since as you say above, the same political machine would still be in place.
I don't think at this point that we can just keep clinching the wall here or there to try to keep it from falling, I think the whole wall needs to be removed and replaced with a shiny new one.
What would you do, consider that looming political machine is not going anywhere?
| 737 |
Digital Display Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:25:38pm |
re: #730 Silvergirl
OT: I need to get a dessert together tonight and would rather not make it a big project, but want it to be more than passable. Who has favorite dessert recipes for pulling a rabbit out of a hat?
Didn't you buy a LGF cookbook?
| 738 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:25:59pm |
| 739 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:26:17pm |
re: #732 JustJay
How much should a Physician make?
| 740 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:26:30pm |
re: #731 avanti
Welcome to positive Karma, you've come a long way.
Avanti passes his crown and sash to spacejesus. :-)
| 741 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:26:55pm |
re: #730 Silvergirl
OT: I need to get a dessert together tonight and would rather not make it a big project, but want it to be more than passable. Who has favorite dessert recipes for pulling a rabbit out of a hat?
Easy.
Coffee ice cream, Kahlua, toasted coconut.
In martini or wine glasses, pour a little Kahlua, put in some coconut, then some scoops of ice cream. Top with coconut, and pour a little more Kahlua. Put in freezer until serving.
Yum & pretty elegant!
| 742 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:27:22pm |
re: #703 Killgore Trout
Hmmm...kind of a stern warning. If the Republicans continue to refuse to participate they're going to get steamrolled.
Al Capone said the same thing to Bugs Malone....coincidence?
| 743 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:27:33pm |
re: #730 Silvergirl
OT: I need to get a dessert together tonight and would rather not make it a big project, but want it to be more than passable. Who has favorite dessert recipes for pulling a rabbit out of a hat?
Hassenpfeffer?
| 744 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:27:45pm |
re: #741 Stanley Sea
Easy.
Coffee ice cream, Kahlua, toasted coconut.
In martini or wine glasses, pour a little Kahlua, put in some coconut, then some scoops of ice cream. Top with coconut, and pour a little more Kahlua. Put in freezer until serving.
Yum & pretty elegant!
Those lady-finger pastries (Clarice!) soaked in amaretto are quite nice, too.
| 745 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:28:00pm |
re: #725 Dark_Falcon
Well, at least he acknowledges the political pressure that make sit hard for the GOP to move. Now, what can be done to ease that pressure?
The Conservative base is a problem. What is really needed is strong Republican leadership to re-educate the base about what needs to be done. The Tea Parties and Glenn Beck have a big megaphone and I'm not sure is the GOP's base is going to listen to reason at this point. Any Republican voting for any of Obama's proposals is going to draw fire.
| 746 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:28:12pm |
| 747 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:28:21pm |
re: #730 Silvergirl
OT: I need to get a dessert together tonight and would rather not make it a big project, but want it to be more than passable. Who has favorite dessert recipes for pulling a rabbit out of a hat?
strawberry shortcake....go to the market, in and out and presto! a quick favorite
| 748 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:28:28pm |
re: #719 wrenchwench
It was a team effort.
I don't know who made the score +1. It was already +2 when I looked.
Aw shucks; should have waited a while before I posed my updings for him on this thread! SpaceJesus was at -9 when I last did it a half hour ago, so other Lizards had to have been going back to his recent comments in the meantime....
| 749 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:28:38pm |
| 750 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:28:39pm |
re: #615 Racer X
And now Nancy just pisses all over the floor.
Nice fucking job.
Is a weak bladder a disqualifying pre-existing condition?
| 751 |
MandyManners Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:28:43pm |
re: #730 Silvergirl
OT: I need to get a dessert together tonight and would rather not make it a big project, but want it to be more than passable. Who has favorite dessert recipes for pulling a rabbit out of a hat?
Orange sorbet with chocolate shavings.
| 752 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:29:07pm |
re: #181 drcordell
At the end of the day it's already coming out of your pocket. Since we as a country have decided that we won't let anyone die in the gutter because they cannot pay for medical care.
When someone walks into the ER deathly ill and has no insurance, they receive treatment anyway. When they cannot pay, the hospital ends up eating the cost themselves. And by "eating the cost" I mean raising their prices for paying customers (read: you).
So the question is, how do you want to pay for the healthcare you are already providing to those without insurance? Do you want to pay for their $7,000 ER bill when they come down with pneumonia and call 911? Or do you want to help subsidize their health insurance, so they can afford to pay for a $200 doctors office visit when their flu hasn't yet turned to pneumonia?
The choice is yours. But remember that either way the cost is being passed along to you.
I'm just quoting this whole thing, because it's pretty much exactly my position stated clearly.
| 753 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:29:53pm |
re: #741 Stanley Sea
Easy.
Coffee ice cream, Kahlua, toasted coconut.
In martini or wine glasses, pour a little Kahlua, put in some coconut, then some scoops of ice cream. Top with coconut, and pour a little more Kahlua. Put in freezer until serving.
Yum & pretty elegant!
Thanks. That would look elegant. I don't like the taste of coffee (major weirdo here, I know) so it would work for everyone but me. I want to enjoy too!
| 754 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:30:08pm |
re: #730 Silvergirl
Tell everyone they got fat over the winter and hand each of them a carrot.
Albusteve recommends Little Debbies.
/
| 755 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:30:22pm |
re: #347 Walter L. Newton
Can't please a leftist if you try... take public money, they yell, don't want it, they yell... wonderful.
I think that if you need it you should make use of whatever publically funded program will serve your needs.
The assumption that those who want you to have it have never fended for themselves, or could not understand why you would try to avoid taking such aid is insulting.
| 756 |
Slap Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:30:31pm |
re: #730 Silvergirl
Consider this: we haven't tried it yet, but we saw it prepared, and it's in our dessert recipe hopper:
And it is EASY.
| 757 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:30:34pm |
re: #736 Walter L. Newton
Real political change is long, arduous, and takes low-level efforts at awareness, turn out the vote, civic education, and the rest. There is no magic bullet, there is no quick solution. Transparency in government is one of the key things, as is actually tracking what politicians do and say they'll do.
However, the recent Supreme Court ruling on campaign finance is going to make this difficult.
We can only progress when we hold our leadership accountable, and a large part of that involves educating the public so that they can do that. That's the main thing we're missing right now.
| 758 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:30:38pm |
| 759 |
MandyManners Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:30:59pm |
| 760 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:31:08pm |
re: #753 Silvergirl
Thanks. That would look elegant. I don't like the taste of coffee (major weirdo here, I know) so it would work for everyone but me. I want to enjoy too!
Nothing wrong with coffee that pouring it down the drain and getting a real drink can't fix.
| 761 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:31:12pm |
re: #745 Killgore Trout
The Conservative base is a problem. What is really needed is strong Republican leadership to re-educate the base about what needs to be done. The Tea Parties and Glenn Beck have a big megaphone and I'm not sure is the GOP's base is going to listen to reason at this point. Any Republican voting for any of Obama's proposals is going to draw fire.
It'll take a while for that to happen. To be honest, right now what is needed is a chameleon, someone who can talk like the Tea Partry crowd enough to keep them onside, but is sane enough to be able to turn on Beck and co. once he has enough influence to fight them.
| 762 |
sagehen Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:31:15pm |
re: #730 Silvergirl
OT: I need to get a dessert together tonight and would rather not make it a big project, but want it to be more than passable. Who has favorite dessert recipes for pulling a rabbit out of a hat?
Berries and grapes. Easiest thing ever.
| 763 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:31:52pm |
re: #761 Dark_Falcon
I think what you're going to get is someone who's a chameleon, but of the opposite kind.
| 764 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:31:59pm |
re: #756 Slap
Consider this: we haven't tried it yet, but we saw it prepared, and it's in our dessert recipe hopper:
And it is EASY.
Looks fabulous! Is there any danger of the egg cooking too fast and curdling?
| 765 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:32:01pm |
re: #752 WindUpBird
I'm just quoting this whole thing, because it's pretty much exactly my position stated clearly.
I thinks it's nearly everyone's position
| 766 |
Izzyboy Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:32:09pm |
re: #761 Dark_Falcon
It'll take a while for that to happen. To be honest, right now what is needed is a chameleon, someone who can talk like the Tea Partry crowd enough to keep them onside, but is sane enough to be able to turn on Beck and co. once he has enough influence to fight them.
A "lend me your ears" guy eh?
| 767 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:32:17pm |
re: #685 Racer X
Interesting.
Americans are idiots and uninformed. Yet Republicans successfully informed them that health care equals socialism.
Perhaps Dems can inform those idiots of their own ideas?
Nah, they're idiots.
Unfortunatly the democrats are still not even close to the republican machine in broadcasting a uniform message. When the news interviews 10 different democrats about healthcare reform they all have a completly different speech with various talking points. When the press interviews 10 republicans they all say exactly the same thing with exactly the same "sound-bite catch-phrases."
It shows in the polls when people are against "Obama-care" but then are overwhelmingly for each individual thing that makes up the Presidents reform package. The average American is no where near as politically informed as the average poster here. They listen to the sound bites on the news and nod their heads in agreement with the complete lies they are told.
The Republicans so far are much better and more prolific liars than the Democrats, not that I'm rooting for the democrats to catch up or anything...
| 768 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:32:29pm |
re: #749 brookly red
Assuming of course that all segments of the market have uniform ability to choose their price.
| 769 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:32:36pm |
| 770 |
Gus Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:32:41pm |
Religious Right Now Exporting Its Anti-Marriage Equality Abroad
Submitted by Kyle on February 25, 2010 - 3:44pm
By now, we are all used to out-of-state Religious Right groups descending on places like Maine, Washington, DC, and elsewhere in order to set up shop in their nonstop effort to fight marriage equality ... but I have to admit that I never expected them to start exporting their efforts abroad.
But here they are, setting their sights on now fighting marriage equality in Mexico:
In response to a move to institute same-sex marriage in the Federal District which includes Mexico City (on March 4), more than 120 pro-family/pro-life leaders from 35 countries have signed the "World Congress of Families Leadership Petition To Save Marriage In Mexico City."
U.S. signers (signing as individuals) include: Gary Bauer (American Values), Allan Carlson (World Congress of Families), Tom DeLay (former Majority Leader, U.S. House of Representatives), Joseph Meaney (Human Life International), Tony Perkins (Family Research Council), Michele Velasco (Priests for Life), Don Wildmon (American Family Association), Wendy Wright (Concerned Women for America), Maggie Gallagher (National Organization for Marriage), Dr. Paige Patterson (Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary),Yuri Mantilla (Focus on the Family) and Dr. Jerry Newcombe (Coral Ridge Ministries).
| 771 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:32:49pm |
re: #375 darthstar
Some Orthopedic Surgeon from Wyoming is claiming that everyone in America that you talk to believes this is all bad and everyone will DIE!!!1!
That may well be true of everyone he has talked to. But he's an orthopedic surgeon from Wyoming.
| 772 |
ShaunP Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:33:03pm |
re: #674 Walter L. Newton
Anything wrong with that? If the left wants to offer me stuff, and I honestly need it, do you have some stipulation that I have to agree with the left before I accept what they set up for the citizens of the country.
Kind of hypocritical if that is what you are suggesting.
No stipulation, I actually want people to use the services available to them. I do think it's hypocritical that people can't see the benefit before they need it themselves though...
Put more bluntly; I don't want to pay for your services, but have no problem with you paying for mine...
| 773 |
MandyManners Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:33:06pm |
re: #758 Silvergirl
It's quick and easy. So are strawberries dipped in chocolate. Or, bananas.
| 774 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:33:21pm |
re: #739 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
How much should a Physician make?
In countries with Socialized medicine, physicians make the same amount depending on their schedule and specialties. I can tell you that in the UK (from my Aunt who is a GP for the NHS), she makes 45,000 quid per year, working 3/4 time (that is, 33 1/4 hours a week) and she has 1,500 patients under her care! No way that happens here....
| 775 |
Slap Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:33:58pm |
re: #764 Silvergirl
As long as you pour slowly (if you're hesitant, add the milk a half-cup at a time to temper things, and you'll be fine).
| 776 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:34:05pm |
re: #768 negativ
Assuming of course that all segments of the market have uniform ability to choose their price.
exactly, so all we need to do is to keep the government out of the way and water will seek it's own level.
| 777 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:34:10pm |
re: #749 brookly red
what ever the market will pay.
and if the market means that there is a massive scarcity of general practicioners, because the market will pay way way more for a plastic surgeon or a specialist than a GP?
The "market" whe it comes to health care has been bad for America, and bad for the health of America. Health care is not a widget. it's not a car, or a TV set.
| 778 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:34:24pm |
re: #754 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Tell everyone they got fat over the winter and hand each of them a carrot.
Albusteve recommends Little Debbies.
/
*spit take*
Bag of carrots on the shopping list.
| 779 |
Gus Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:34:43pm |
Fischer: Sea World Death Due To West's Failure to Follow Scripture
Submitted by Kyle on February 25, 2010 - 10:39am
Sometimes I wonder if the American Family Association's Bryan Fischer ultimate goal is just to make his organization look foolish by writing pieces like this one claiming that the death of a trainer at Sea World yesterday was the result of a failure to abide by Biblical mandates.
Fischer cites this article noting that the whale in question was considered particularly dangerous and had a history of violent incidents to claim that the death can be chalked up to "animal rights insanity and to the ongoing failure of the West to take counsel on practical matters from the Scripture:
What about the term "killer whale" do SeaWorld officials not understand?
If the counsel of the Judeo-Christian tradition had been followed, Tillikum would have been put out of everyone's misery back in 1991 and would not have had the opportunity to claim two more human lives....
| 780 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:34:44pm |
re: #767 ausador
It's interesting. I hear this sort of thing all the time - the Republicans have a solid message. They have a unified message. That's why they are able to trick people into believing certain things.
But then, the same people - the Republicans are stratified. Paul, Tea parties, Religious Right - they just can't possibly get along. To diverse a group.
Weird.
| 781 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:36:01pm |
| 782 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:36:14pm |
re: #747 albusteve
strawberry shortcake...go to the market, in and out and presto! a quick favorite
A classic, too. This gets serious consideration, though our Oregon strawberries aren't in season yet and those are my all-time fave, and really worth waiting for.
| 783 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:36:28pm |
re: #774 Surabaya Stew
In countries with Socialized medicine, physicians make the same amount depending on their schedule and specialties. I can tell you that in the UK (from my Aunt who is a GP for the NHS), she makes 45,000 quid per year, working 3/4 time (that is, 33 1/4 hours a week) and she has 1,500 patients under her care! No way that happens here...
I was listening to an NPR interview with a German doctor who came to the states because he could make much more money. He felt bad about it, but in the end, he worked hard to become a doctor, and felt that there was nothing wrong in trying to get compensated for it.
This was NPR.
| 784 |
Gus Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:36:35pm |
Slideshow: Anti-Gay Protests In Uganda
Josh Marshall %P% February 25, 2010, 3:10PM
Anti-gay protests broke out recently in Uganda in the wake of a controversy over a proposed law that would mandate life imprisonment for gay sex and even the death penalty.
| 785 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:36:45pm |
re: #777 WindUpBird
and if the market means that there is a massive scarcity of general practicioners, because the market will pay way way more for a plastic surgeon or a specialist than a GP?
The "market" whe it comes to health care has been bad for America, and bad for the health of America. Health care is not a widget. it's not a car, or a TV set.
exactly, we should be creating incentives for our best & brightest to become GPs and not trying to draft them.
| 786 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:37:07pm |
re: #780 cliffster
It's interesting. I hear this sort of thing all the time - the Republicans have a solid message. They have a unified message. That's why they are able to trick people into believing certain things.
But then, the same people - the Republicans are stratified. Paul, Tea parties, Religious Right - they just can't possibly get along. To diverse a group.
Weird.
A platoon of fractured and fracturing factions, all in lock-step. Yep, this is the GOP currently described.
And it's a damned shame that the ignorant benighted masses - the ones who elected the President - are so easily gulled by the GOP; if only they'd listen!
| 787 |
ArchangelMichael Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:37:27pm |
re: #781 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
How much is that in quatloos?
Dollars?
About $69,000. Pretty sure that doctors here make more than that.
| 788 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:37:32pm |
re: #785 brookly red
So what do you feel about the fee-for-service model we currently have that makes being a GP the booby prize? What would you rather see?
| 789 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:38:34pm |
re: #788 Obdicut
So what do you feel about the fee-for-service model we currently have that makes being a GP the booby prize? What would you rather see?
2 words, free market.
| 790 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:38:41pm |
re: #787 ArchangelMichael
About $69,000. Pretty sure that doctors here make more than that.
Crap! That won't even make a down payment for an OB's malpractice insurance here.
How about quatloos?
| 791 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:39:17pm |
re: #783 cliffster
I was listening to an NPR interview with a German doctor who came to the states because he could make much more money. He felt bad about it, but in the end, he worked hard to become a doctor, and felt that there was nothing wrong in trying to get compensated for it.
This was NPR.
| 792 |
windsagio Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:39:31pm |
re: #786 Guanxi88
Sarcasm aside, The difference is that the GOP shows amazing congressional discipline and unity, regardless of what the voters do. On the ground level its all populist madness, but up on the hill its a well-oiled machine.
The dems on the other hand, are waaaaay too focused on actually doing things good for their districts. Doesn't make for good use of power :p
| 794 |
SixDegrees Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:40:02pm |
re: #779 Gus 802
Fischer: Sea World Death Due To West's Failure to Follow Scripture
Submitted by Kyle on February 25, 2010 - 10:39am
I really hope Tillikum turns out to be gay.
| 795 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:40:03pm |
re: #789 brookly red
That doesn't answer the question at all, dude. Fee-for-service is free market. So would be, for example, salaried positions for doctors. Your response makes no sense.
If you don't know what the fee-for-service thingy is, read the Gawande article I linked above, which explains it well.
| 796 |
Joanne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:40:44pm |
re: #739 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
How much should a Physician make?
That's not for me to determine. But I would rather $$ go to them, those who actually impact healthCARE.
| 797 |
Digital Display Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:41:10pm |
re: #764 Silvergirl
Looks fabulous! Is there any danger of the egg cooking too fast and curdling?
Robert Redford pie
1 cup flour
1/2 cup butter
pecans finely chopped
8 oz cream cheese
1 cup powdered sugar
12 oz cool whip
1 large package of instant chocolate pudding
3 cups of cold milk
mix together flour, butter and pecans
press into bottom of 9x13 inch pan
bake at 350 degrees for 20 minutes and cool
mix cream cheese, powdered sugar and 1/2 of cool whip
spread over first layer when cool
spread chocolate pudding over is mixure, then spread remaining 1/2 of cool whip on top.. You can add a shaved chocolate bar for a pretty top
| 798 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:41:50pm |
re: #782 Silvergirl
A classic, too. This gets serious consideration, though our Oregon strawberries aren't in season yet and those are my all-time fave, and really worth waiting for.
my market went nuts with SB SC a week or so back....maybe a valentines thing I dunno...CA berries were in and I put them over Bisquick shortcake.....mmmm!
| 799 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:41:54pm |
re: #781 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
How much is that in quatloos?
Dollars?
When she was visiting my family in New York in early 2008, 45,000 pounds was $90,000. Now its more like $70,000 due to the declining Pound relative to the Dollar. Which explains why she was able to make the trip when she did but can't afford to now. Incidentally, my GP Aunt didn't feel that she was underpaid at all by British standards, but was convinced that doctors in the USA were vastly overpaid!
| 800 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:42:02pm |
| 801 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:42:20pm |
I have a question, a kind of poll for us here. If we assume a constitutional amendment would be necessary to pass a public option or single payer with mandates-And we assume from the poll above most of us want it- Should we shelve the bill and go for broke? Knowing that will take a year or two or three?
I'll answer myself first-I think medical providers should be regulated like public utilities, with all due regulation and oversight. So no I'd take what is in the current bill over "going for broke" in a public option attempt.
| 802 |
solomonpanting Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:42:35pm |
| 803 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:43:00pm |
re: #796 JustJay
That's not for me to determine. But I would rather $$ go to them, those who actually impact healthCARE.
It would be interesting to see what percentage of health care dollars actually go to doctors. I would suspect it is a fairly low percentage.
| 804 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:43:05pm |
re: #792 windsagio
Sarcasm aside, The difference is that the GOP shows amazing congressional discipline and unity, regardless of what the voters do. On the ground level its all populist madness, but up on the hill its a well-oiled machine.
The dems on the other hand, are waaay too focused on actually doing things good for their districts. Doesn't make for good use of power :p
The GOP are bunch of slimy bastards all working together, and the Dems are saints, swimming upstream but trying to help humanity against all odds. That's rich.
| 805 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:43:06pm |
re: #799 Surabaya Stew
When she was visiting my family in New York in early 2008, 45,000 pounds was $90,000. Now its more like $70,000 due to the declining Pound relative to the Dollar. Which explains why she was able to make the trip when she did but can't afford to now. Incidentally, my GP Aunt didn't feel that she was underpaid at all by British standards, but was convinced that doctors in the USA were vastly overpaid!
OF COURSE SHE DID! THEY MADE MORE THAN HER!
That seems to be the way it works anymore.
| 806 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:43:16pm |
re: #795 Obdicut
That doesn't answer the question at all, dude. Fee-for-service is free market. So would be, for example, salaried positions for doctors. Your response makes no sense.
If you don't know what the fee-for-service thingy is, read the Gawande article I linked above, which explains it well.
I know what the fee-for-service thingy is comrade, why would a self employed doctor be salaried? It is called a private practice for a reason... if you want you can go to the free clinic you get what you pay for.
| 807 |
sagehen Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:43:26pm |
re: #739 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
How much should a Physician make?
4 years of college.
4 years of med school.
1 year internship.
2-3 years residency.
All of the above at long hours and considerable expense.
Age 30 when they earn their very first fee.
To get the best people into a field with those drawbacks -- I'm not at all bothered that most of them expect to earn, every year thereafter, at least 10x more than the average high school graduate.
| 808 |
windsagio Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:43:27pm |
re: #801 Rightwingconspirator
no, its too easy to block an amendment. It'd be waaay easier to let something smaller through congress and work its way up over time.
| 809 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:43:47pm |
re: #793 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
OT... sorry...
FREE WILLY!
Heh heh heh.... it really cracks the British up to no end that we Yanks Made a kids movies about a friendly Orca with that name!
| 810 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:44:40pm |
re: #804 cliffster
The GOP are bunch of slimy bastards all working together, and the Dems are saints, swimming upstream but trying to help humanity against all odds. That's rich.
ahaha!...pay no attention
| 811 |
windsagio Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:44:51pm |
re: #804 cliffster
Does the GOP show more party unity in the house and senate? >>
| 813 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:44:59pm |
re: #780 cliffster
It's interesting. I hear this sort of thing all the time - the Republicans have a solid message. They have a unified message. That's why they are able to trick people into believing certain things.
But then, the same people - the Republicans are stratified. Paul, Tea parties, Religious Right - they just can't possibly get along. To diverse a group.
Weird.
Uhh...perhaps you have noticed that all the republicans vote as a single block, every single one of them, and have done so since Bush I except for one or two votes here or there? When someone does cross the party line they are punished and penalized.
The same is not true of the Dems who are in reality split into at least three major factions that I am aware of.
You throw out Paul and the tea baggers followed by the R.R. as if they were not all the same thing in the end, they are. The only major arguments those groups have is with the party leaders who still want to maintain a sane enough stance to try to keep some moderate voters on board.
| 814 |
Gus Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:44:59pm |
re: #791 Walter L. Newton
Danny Williams is a billionaire. If needed he could have traveled to anywhere around the world to get the best care he required and could afford. His surgeon, Dr. Joseph Lamelas, happens to be one of the best and has the lowest morbidity rates in Florida and in the United States. I doubt that anyone with health insurance can have access to Dr. Joseph Lamelas.
| 815 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:45:26pm |
re: #806 brookly red
I know what the fee-for-service thingy is comrade, why would a self employed doctor be salaried? It is called a private practice for a reason... if you want you can go to the free clinic you get what you pay for.
Again, that doesn't make any sense as a response. Plenty of doctors have started private practices together and paid salaries to themselves-- something that Gawande talks about in his article.
Why on earth did you call me 'comrade'?
| 816 |
Joanne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:46:19pm |
re: #800 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Dude... totally read your post wrong.
My bad.
Duddette. :-) No prob!
| 817 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:46:23pm |
re: #811 windsagio
Does the GOP show more party unity in the house and senate? >>
did it ever occur to that maybe the HCR bills are bad, and should not pass?
| 819 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:47:07pm |
re: #805 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
OF COURSE SHE DID! THEY MADE MORE THAN HER!
That seems to be the way it works anymore.
I didn't get the impression that she was jealous; rather she felt that we were being taken by a ride by our medical system. Seeing how the NHS and private medical services take up less than 10% of British GDP and more than 16% of our GDP, I think she had a valid point.
| 820 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:47:09pm |
re: #817 albusteve
did it ever occur to that maybe the HCR bills are bad, and should not pass?
The old "answer a question with a question" trick.
| 821 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:47:36pm |
| 822 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:47:38pm |
re: #814 Gus 802
Danny Williams is a billionaire. If needed he could have traveled to anywhere around the world to get the best care he required and could afford. His surgeon, Dr. Joseph Lamelas, happens to be one of the best and has the lowest morbidity rates in Florida and in the United States. I doubt that anyone with health insurance can have access to Dr. Joseph Lamelas.
Class inequity through insurance companies is fine, not important, and just the way things are.
Class inequity in a country with socialized medicine is EEEEVIL. Unspeakable eeevil.
| 823 |
Kruk Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:47:40pm |
re: #809 Surabaya Stew
Heh heh heh... it really cracks the British up to no end that we Yanks Made a kids movies about a friendly Orca with that name!
Not as much as it amused us that you called your President Slick Willy....
| 824 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:47:52pm |
re: #820 garhighway
The old "answer a question with a question" trick.
it's the answer to the question Einstein
| 825 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:48:06pm |
re: #814 Gus 802
Danny Williams is a billionaire. If needed he could have traveled to anywhere around the world to get the best care he required and could afford. His surgeon, Dr. Joseph Lamelas, happens to be one of the best and has the lowest morbidity rates in Florida and in the United States. I doubt that anyone with health insurance can have access to Dr. Joseph Lamelas.
Gee... I must have missed your point?
| 826 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:48:08pm |
re: #815 Obdicut
Again, that doesn't make any sense as a response. Plenty of doctors have started private practices together and paid salaries to themselves-- something that Gawande talks about in his article.
Why on earth did you call me 'comrade'?
What is your freakin point? do you want to regulate the compensation of health care providers? or anyone else for that matter? or do I just misread you?
| 827 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:48:24pm |
I worked in a link to Yesica Toscanini in a perfectly legitimate way up-thread, and I got no love from anyone about it. Fuck all yall.
| 829 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:48:32pm |
re: #792 windsagio
Sarcasm aside, The difference is that the GOP shows amazing congressional discipline and unity, regardless of what the voters do. On the ground level its all populist madness, but up on the hill its a well-oiled machine.
The dems on the other hand, are waaay too focused on actually doing things good for their districts. Doesn't make for good use of power :p
Amazing, huh? The way they so cleverly dupe their voters, by cunningly voting as they promised they would.
If only they'd adopt the Dem ways - and tax the ever-loving shit outta people they don't like and who live in other districts to send the cash back home to their client class constituents.
| 830 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:49:02pm |
re: #797 HoosierHoops
Robert Redford pie
I'm putting the ingredients for this on the list, though I won't make it tonight. It may not be as good without Robert Redford, but you can't lose with chocolate.
| 831 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:49:08pm |
re: #823 Kruk
Not as much as it amused us that you called your President Slick Willy...
Wasn't far from the truth, no?
;-)
| 832 |
Gus Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:49:12pm |
re: #822 SanFranciscoZionist
Class inequity through insurance companies is fine, not important, and just the way things are.
Class inequity in a country with socialized medicine is EEEVIL. Unspeakable eeevil.
I think a more potent point would be made if your run of the mill middle class John Doe came over from Canada and went to get heart surgery performed by the world class Dr. Joseph Lamelas. Won't happen.
| 833 |
ArchangelMichael Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:49:13pm |
re: #815 Obdicut
Why on earth did you call me 'comrade'?
"Perhaps you have heard Russian epic of Cinderella? If shoe fits, wear it!"
/
| 834 |
windsagio Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:50:04pm |
re: #824 albusteve
I was gonna ignore the rhetorical quesiton, but since you put it that way ;)
If the pattern only held for healthcare you might have a point.
Unfortunately, in what Guanxi and Cliffster were talking about, its a general pattern.
To be honest I don't even know if its bad or not (super-strong party discipline that is).
| 835 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:50:18pm |
re: #828 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
My **** is so big; my urologist has a Sherpa.
| 836 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:50:23pm |
re: #826 brookly red
What is your freakin point? do you want to regulate the compensation of health care providers? or anyone else for that matter? or do I just misread you?
You correctly said that we have a shortage of GPs/primary care doctors. The reason we have a shortage is because of the fee-for-service payment scheme that is almost universal in the US. I'm asking you if you think the solution to the problem is moving to a different compensation system.
For some reason, you're treating this as a hostile attack. It has nothing to do with the free market versus regulation, or anything like that.
| 837 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:50:33pm |
re: #832 Gus 802
I think a more potent point would be made if your run of the mill middle class John Doe came over from Canada and went to get heart surgery performed by the world class Dr. Joseph Lamelas. Won't happen.
It's odd, though, that there werent' any world-class surgeons in Canada for him to visit.
| 838 |
Joanne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:50:45pm |
re: #801 Rightwingconspirator
I have a question, a kind of poll for us here. If we assume a constitutional amendment would be necessary to pass a public option or single payer with mandates-And we assume from the poll above most of us want it- Should we shelve the bill and go for broke? Knowing that will take a year or two or three?
I'll answer myself first-I think medical providers should be regulated like public utilities, with all due regulation and oversight. So no I'd take what is in the current bill over "going for broke" in a public option attempt.
No. My boyfriend is Canadian and we talk about how their healthcare system originally started. They did it incrementally. The "father" of their system (Keifer Sutherland's grandfather) was recently voted the most important Canadian in history. Their system is very good. Lots of misinformation about their system which frustrates them to no end.
Our system is so expensive and so restrictive (to people actually getting care) it's ridiculous. I'll take incremental or balls to the walls. Whatever. We need help out here. (And I make good money. I can only imagine people of lesser means - couple that with children and it comes down to shelter/food/gas/living expenses or healthcare. Our nation is too great for that. When almost every other industrialized nation bests us in something as important as healthcare, something is seriously wrong.
| 839 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:50:47pm |
re: #783 cliffster
I was listening to an NPR interview with a German doctor who came to the states because he could make much more money. He felt bad about it, but in the end, he worked hard to become a doctor, and felt that there was nothing wrong in trying to get compensated for it.
This was NPR.
Can't blame anybody for wanting to legally better their economic situation.
| 840 |
windsagio Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:50:49pm |
re: #829 Guanxi88
c'mon, the second part was a joke. I hate doing sarc tags unless they're absolutely necessary :p
| 841 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:51:32pm |
re: #840 windsagio
c'mon, the second part was a joke. I hate doing sarc tags unless they're absolutely necessary :p
SO was mine - everybody's covered in the stuff - and we all have a good time with it.
| 842 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:51:57pm |
re: #833 ArchangelMichael
"Perhaps you have heard Russian epic of Cinderella? If shoe fits, wear it!"
/
Upding for the Star Trek VI quote.
| 843 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:52:11pm |
re: #822 SanFranciscoZionist
Class inequity through insurance companies is fine, not important, and just the way things are.
Class inequity in a country with socialized medicine is EEEVIL. Unspeakable eeevil.
unless of course you are a member of the ruling elite... I still don't think any bill presented applies to congress, but hey I could be wrong...
| 844 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:52:14pm |
| 845 |
Gus Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:52:44pm |
re: #837 Guanxi88
It's odd, though, that there werent' any world-class surgeons in Canada for him to visit.
That can be true or untrue. I am not familiar with heart surgeons let alone those in Canada. I think it's also important to add that whatever health care reform is being proposed it's not to make the one the United States like that in Canada or the NHS. That's just a scare tactic from those that oppose HCR.
| 846 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:53:04pm |
re: #824 albusteve
Hmmm.
The question was : "Does the GOP show more party unity in the house and senate? "
Your answer was: "Did it ever occur to that maybe the HCR bills are bad, and should not pass?"
It didn't seem to me that the answer was an answer (unless we're playing by Jeopardy rules, where all answers have to be phrased in the form of a question), and that if it was, it wasn't answering the question asked. Unless you had added to the question some sort of invisible parenthetical qualification that it was only talking about HCR. I didn't read it that way.
But that's just me.
| 847 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:53:08pm |
re: #825 Walter L. Newton
Gee... I must have missed your point?
Everyone should get the same care. Not just the rich.
Yeah, like that will ever happen. Rich people get rich for a reason.
| 848 |
windsagio Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:53:19pm |
re: #841 Guanxi88
then we're all cool :p
Do ya think the overwhelming party discipline is a good or bad thing? (altho I admit it seems to be changing some)
| 849 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:53:41pm |
re: #845 Gus 802
That can be true or untrue. I am not familiar with heart surgeons let alone those in Canada. I think it's also important to add that whatever health care reform is being proposed it's not to make the one the United States like that in Canada or the NHS. That's just a scare tactic from those that oppose HCR.
Again, I'd imagine, if he's got the cash-ola to pay out to the guy he visited, that, unless he wanted a little R&R in Florida, he, of all Canadians, might have been able to get a good recommendation.
| 851 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:54:38pm |
re: #847 Racer X
Everyone should get the same care. Not just the rich.
Yeah, like that will ever happen. Rich people get rich for a reason.
/do you think Mr. Wood's "sex addiction" issue would be covered by a public option?
| 852 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:54:41pm |
re: #848 windsagio
then we're all cool :p
Do ya think the overwhelming party discipline is a good or bad thing? (altho I admit it seems to be changing some)
Party discipline sucks ass. Period.
That's for totalitarians, not for Americans. I want a wide range in every party, to keep the goof-balls - like me - in line and in check.
| 853 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:54:42pm |
re: #847 Racer X
I don't know whether to ding that or not.
| 854 |
Gus Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:54:48pm |
re: #847 Racer X
Everyone should get the same care. Not just the rich.
Yeah, like that will ever happen. Rich people get rich for a reason.
That's not the point. The point is that Danny Williams is not an example to compare health care policy for an individual worth billions to the health care policy for the American population as a whole.
| 855 |
Joanne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:55:10pm |
re: #803 garhighway
It would be interesting to see what percentage of health care dollars actually go to doctors. I would suspect it is a fairly low percentage.
The ones who should get the lions share (IMHO) are the ones getting short changed. Hospitals need $ for equipment. Doctors need to make enough money to live well (and pay off their sky high school debt). Companies should have money to reinvest into R&D (the current method of large companies buying small ones as the drugs are in FDA trials does not seem the best model for innovation. We need R&D!)
| 856 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:55:15pm |
re: #838 JustJay
Thanks, that's a helpful post. I desperately need the pre exisiting condition thing worked out, my dear wife has a childhood ailment, and can't get it as an individual. She is unemployed. Complicating a job search by only taking jobs with medical coverage is hardly an option in a economy like this.
| 858 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:56:15pm |
re: #857 windsagio
I like the cut of your jib!
I've got a pretty good idea of my own limitations, and I'm just vain enough to imagine that there's plenty of screwballs like me across the political spectrum. I don't trust any of 'em, myself included
| 859 |
SixDegrees Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:56:26pm |
re: #843 brookly red
unless of course you are a member of the ruling elite... I still don't think any bill presented applies to congress, but hey I could be wrong...
They're exempted from any of the plans they are currently proposing, and will keep their existing smorgasbord of special coverage.
I suspect they realize that being required to adopt the plans they propose would inflate the cost of those plans so much that the cost would be laughably impossible to cover.
They will almost certainly exempt their own pay from the taxes that will be required to fund what they're proposing, as well.
| 860 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:56:51pm |
re: #850 windsagio
yeah, being in a rich family :p
you're a rich girl and it's gone to far
Cause you know it don't matter anyway
You can rely on the old man's money
| 861 |
sagehen Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:57:20pm |
re: #795 Obdicut
That doesn't answer the question at all, dude. Fee-for-service is free market. So would be, for example, salaried positions for doctors. Your response makes no sense.
If you don't know what the fee-for-service thingy is, read the Gawande article I linked above, which explains it well.
It's not really a "free market" when the insurance company or HMO that carries 2/3 of the insured people within a 50-mile radius announces what fee they've decided they'll pay for what service, take it or leave it -- and any doctor or hospital who doesn't take it is stricken from the acceptable providers list. And then the HMO comes back two years later to announce they're cutting their reimbursement by 20%. And again two years after that.
| 862 |
solomonpanting Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:57:20pm |
re: #851 brookly red
/do you think Mr. Wood's "sex addiction" issue would be covered by a public option?
My guess is the women preferred his private coverage.
| 863 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:57:51pm |
re: #859 SixDegrees
They're exempted from any of the plans they are currently proposing, and will keep their existing smorgasbord of special coverage.
I suspect they realize that being required to adopt the plans they propose would inflate the cost of those plans so much that the cost would be laughably impossible to cover.
They will almost certainly exempt their own pay from the taxes that will be required to fund what they're proposing, as well.
I love that Canadian heart surgery thing... that for me says it all.
| 864 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:57:54pm |
Wow, pushing 900 comments and still amazingly on point. Other than the Robert Redford Cake sidethread, whatever.
| 866 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:58:47pm |
re: #862 solomonpanting
My guess is the women preferred his private coverage.
Not gonna touch that line. :(
| 867 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:59:05pm |
| 868 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:59:22pm |
re: #856 Rightwingconspirator
Thanks, that's a helpful post. I desperately need the pre exisiting condition thing worked out, my dear wife has a childhood ailment, and can't get it as an individual. She is unemployed. Complicating a job search by only taking jobs with medical coverage is hardly an option in a economy like this.
Best of luck working that out. I've been there. My wife having breast cancer in her medical history was a very complicating thing when it comes to job hunting.
It would be interesting to know if there are any decent stats on how much of a drag on the economy the pre-existing condition problem is: people who can't change jobs, relocate or otherwise better themselves because it would muck up their coverage. I suspect it is significant, but I don't know that.
| 869 |
Digital Display Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:59:25pm |
re: #864 cliffster
Wow, pushing 900 comments and still amazingly on point. Other than the Robert Redford Cake sidethread, whatever.
Hey! She wanted a desert recipe!
Don't make me come over there mister!
*wink*
| 870 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:59:29pm |
| 871 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:59:57pm |
re: #861 sagehen
Yeah, I just meant in terms of how hospitals and doctors' practices arrange their pay, it's free market; where it touches the insurance companies, it isn't.
| 872 |
Kruk Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:59:59pm |
re: #862 solomonpanting
My guess is the women preferred his private coverage.
Really? I thought he was trying to make his coverage as universal as possible.
| 873 |
sagehen Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:00:21pm |
re: #799 Surabaya Stew
Incidentally, my GP Aunt didn't feel that she was underpaid at all by British standards, but was convinced that doctors in the USA were vastly overpaid!
Your British GP aunt didn't spend $300,000 for her education, either.
| 874 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:00:43pm |
| 875 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:01:11pm |
re: #847 Racer X
Everyone should get the same care. Not just the rich.
Yeah, like that will ever happen. Rich people get rich for a reason.
Do you realize how untenable that position is? Today, we have treatments you never could have imagined decades ago. On one hand, we think everyone should get these treatments. On the other hand, we say we have to bring down the cost of medicine. It just doesn't work. The only way to level it is to make it so that nobody gets access to the best treatments - tell rich people they can't have the coverage they want even though they can afford it.
| 876 |
Silvergirl Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:01:18pm |
re: #869 HoosierHoops
Hey! She wanted a desert recipe!
Don't make me come over there mister!
*wink*
Yeah, like cliffster has never gone off topic!
Thanks again--off to market!
| 877 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:01:54pm |
re: #868 garhighway
That would be a big project to suss that out properly. I like the medicare buy in idea too.
| 878 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:01:55pm |
I have come to the conclusion that younger people really don't understand the fundamental differences between liberalism and conservatism...they grew up in a faulty, ruined public ed system then went on to liberal dominated colleges...they have no clue about the hazards of excessive taxation and a entitlement culture...they have no clue about the continued subsidization of poverty and the failure of the family structure, the trillions wasted on public housing and the war on povery, the subsidization of food and energy and the havoc wreaking nature of unions....their ideas of self defense have been diluted by the notion of victimization...the govt, to them, is the answer to all problems and govt structures our future...free will and independence are secondary to govt....they are too young to know that govt does not serve them...they are liberals and gladly fall in line
| 879 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:02:08pm |
re: #875 cliffster
That only holds true if all new treatments are more expensive. Many new treatments are merely equally expensive; others are actually less expensive.
Have you read the Gawande articles I link all the time?
| 880 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:02:09pm |
re: #865 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
There's cake?
There's always cake. But this time, it's Robert Redford.
| 881 |
oldegeezr Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:03:08pm |
re: #857 windsagio
That's my line windy...!
Are you a cat or tri kinda sailor?
Huh...?
| 882 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:03:41pm |
re: #878 albusteve
Do you receive any money or benefits from the feds or the state, Steve?
| 883 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:03:51pm |
re: #879 Obdicut
That only holds true if all new treatments are more expensive. Many new treatments are merely equally expensive; others are actually less expensive.
Have you read the Gawande articles I link all the time?
Nope, I haven't seen them. Shoot them to me.
| 884 |
SixDegrees Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:03:56pm |
re: #863 brookly red
I love that Canadian heart surgery thing... that for me says it all.
Canada's health care system has actually been a small boon to the Detroit area, where a number of small specialty clinics have sprung up over the years to service Canadian customers. MRI clinics seem to be the most popular.
Interestingly, this has led to greater demand for small, cheap MRI machines; these have less capability than their full-size cousins, but are perfect for scanning an arm or a leg, for example. So the US gets a double benefit - they sell the service, and get the spinoff technology created by the new demands of the marketplace. Maybe someday we'll even wind up selling some of these smaller, cheaper machines to Canada, but change in government-run systems is glacially slow, so that won't happen anytime soon.
| 885 |
solomonpanting Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:04:00pm |
re: #875 cliffster
The only way to level it is to make it so that nobody gets access to the best treatments - tell rich people they can't have the coverage they want even though they can afford it.
Ah!! Now there's a clear distinction between liberty and equality.
| 886 |
Dark_Falcon Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:04:12pm |
re: #878 albusteve
I have come to the conclusion that younger people really don't understand the fundamental differences between liberalism and conservatism...they grew up in a faulty, ruined public ed system then went on to liberal dominated colleges...they have no clue about the hazards of excessive taxation and a entitlement culture...they have no clue about the continued subsidization of poverty and the failure of the family structure, the trillions wasted on public housing and the war on povery, the subsidization of food and energy and the havoc wreaking nature of unions...their ideas of self defense have been diluted by the notion of victimization...the govt, to them, is the answer to all problems and govt structures our future...free will and independence are secondary to govt...they are too young to know that govt does not serve them...they are liberals and gladly fall in line
Then it's up to you and me to see to it that they learn the truth.
| 887 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:04:23pm |
| 889 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:04:55pm |
re: #878 albusteve
They will likely find out within their lifetimes.
| 890 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:05:04pm |
re: #873 sagehen
Your British GP aunt didn't spend $300,000 for her education, either.
This is true, but keep in mind she doesn't have the option of seeing private patients on her own time either because NHS employees aren't allowed other sources of income. So it pretty much balances out her subsidized education costs.
| 891 |
windsagio Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:05:16pm |
re: #881 oldegeezr
I wish, I'm kjust a wimpy power-boat kind of guy. I love a good turn of phrase tho :)
| 892 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:05:41pm |
re: #887 brookly red
no the cake is real, just not for you.
Question for the room: It is my understanding that one of the goals of buddhism is the annihilation of the self, into the larger unity.
Question - if the self is an illusion, how does one eliminate it, and who is doing the elimination?
| 893 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:05:47pm |
re: #890 Surabaya Stew
So, it's like a Physician's Peace Corp?
| 894 |
Kruk Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:05:52pm |
re: #887 brookly red
no the cake is real, just not for you.
If you know the candlelight is fire, the meal was cooked long ago.
(Bonus marks to anyone who gets that one.)
| 895 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:05:57pm |
re: #883 cliffster
This one is about the cost of health care, so most apropos to what you were talking about:
[Link: www.newyorker.com...]
This is about healthcare/insurance reform in general:
[Link: www.newyorker.com...]
| 896 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:06:10pm |
re: #843 brookly red
unless of course you are a member of the ruling elite... I still don't think any bill presented applies to congress, but hey I could be wrong...
Congress has health care provided by their employer. So do I. What are you talking about?
| 897 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:06:15pm |
re: #884 SixDegrees
Canada's health care system has actually been a small boon to the Detroit area, where a number of small specialty clinics have sprung up over the years to service Canadian customers. MRI clinics seem to be the most popular.
Interestingly, this has led to greater demand for small, cheap MRI machines; these have less capability than their full-size cousins, but are perfect for scanning an arm or a leg, for example. So the US gets a double benefit - they sell the service, and get the spinoff technology created by the new demands of the marketplace. Maybe someday we'll even wind up selling some of these smaller, cheaper machines to Canada, but change in government-run systems is glacially slow, so that won't happen anytime soon.
I only need to look north to reject a public "option"...
| 898 |
ArchangelMichael Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:06:39pm |
re: #882 Obdicut
Do you receive any money or benefits from the feds or the state, Steve?
| 899 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:06:51pm |
re: #892 Guanxi88
Question for the room: It is my understanding that one of the goals of buddhism is the annihilation of the self, into the larger unity.
Question - if the self is an illusion, how does one eliminate it, and who is doing the elimination?
death panels... get over it.
| 900 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:06:52pm |
re: #886 Dark_Falcon
If we didn't subsidize electricity (and heating oil) in this country, lots more people would die every year.
To pick just one thing from Steve's laundry-list.
| 901 |
solomonpanting Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:06:54pm |
re: #890 Surabaya Stew
This is true, but keep in mind she doesn't have the option of seeing private patients on her own time either because NHS employees aren't allowed other sources of income. So it pretty much balances out her subsidized education costs.
Yet another distinction between liberty and equality.
How informative this thread is!
| 902 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:06:58pm |
re: #882 Obdicut
Do you receive any money or benefits from the feds or the state, Steve?
why do you ask?
| 903 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:07:19pm |
Well, My Toyota Highlander hit 210,000 miles today.
Congress is kicking Toyota hard!
| 904 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:07:32pm |
re: #898 ArchangelMichael
Asking someone complaining about entitlement if they receive entitlements is a non-sequitur how, exactly?
| 905 |
Kruk Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:07:41pm |
re: #897 brookly red
I only need to look north to reject a public "option"...
You do understand the difference between the public option and single payer, don't you? Not to mention public financing and public provision of healthcare?
| 906 |
windsagio Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:07:45pm |
re: #900 Obdicut
Its the myth of the self-made man.... Again.
| 907 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:07:46pm |
| 908 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:08:00pm |
re: #895 Obdicut
This one is about the cost of health care, so most apropos to what you were talking about:
[Link: www.newyorker.com...]
This is about healthcare/insurance reform in general:
[Link: www.newyorker.com...]
Thank you. I look at the New Yorker like you probably look at the National Review, but I'm sure it's cited well and I'll read through it.
| 909 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:08:08pm |
re: #892 Guanxi88
Question for the room: It is my understanding that one of the goals of buddhism is the annihilation of the self, into the larger unity.
Question - if the self is an illusion, how does one eliminate it, and who is doing the elimination?
How do we know, ask some other illusion.
| 911 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:08:51pm |
re: #878 albusteve
I have come to the conclusion that younger people really don't understand the fundamental differences between liberalism and conservatism...they grew up in a faulty, ruined public ed system then went on to liberal dominated colleges...they have no clue about the hazards of excessive taxation and a entitlement culture...they have no clue about the continued subsidization of poverty and the failure of the family structure, the trillions wasted on public housing and the war on povery, the subsidization of food and energy and the havoc wreaking nature of unions...their ideas of self defense have been diluted by the notion of victimization...the govt, to them, is the answer to all problems and govt structures our future...free will and independence are secondary to govt...they are too young to know that govt does not serve them...they are liberals and gladly fall in line
Because it is utterly impossible that they understand the difference and still disagree with you? Reasonable and well-informed minds could not possibly disagree?
| 912 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:09:01pm |
re: #893 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
So, it's like a Physician's Peace Corp?
Thats an interesting way of putting it. Not sure how long her term of service is, but my understanding is that she isn't eligible for a government pension if she quits to open a private practice before retirement age sets in. Therefore, an aspiring British medical student who takes the subsidized education offered by the NHS is effectively sighing a lifetime contract.
| 913 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:09:06pm |
re: #909 Walter L. Newton
How do we know, ask some other illusion.
Oooh! Somone's kept up with the Koan thread from many months ago.
Well done, shifu Walt!
| 914 |
Joanne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:09:08pm |
re: #867 Rightwingconspirator
re: #808 windsagio
So I have zero support spoken for holding out for a public option. Incremental will do just fine. Not a scientific poll by any means.
I much prefer Medicare for all, myself. I don't see why we have to dick around like this. Let the government make payments. They have bargaining power to keep costs reasonable while still ensuring that those providing care get $$ (and, while I cannot quantify this, I bet reimbursements are better for all involved when getting paid from the government, when you consider doctors and hospitals having to have full time staff to deal with insurance company delaying tactics). Public option is an acceptable substitute for that. But if we hold out for the perfect, how many people will continue to lose their insurance? How many will have to file bankruptcy and be put into financial ruin? How many will die?
It's those things that make me accepting of something - anything, at this point. Some of these elected schmucks rake in millions from the insurance industry. We're not going to get the best option. The GOP got 80% of what it asked for (no matter what they say), and no one will vote for it because that means a Dem "win" - which is much more important in avoiding than doing something for their constituents. Getting Dems to agree on anything is like herding cats.
I am all for elected officials voting their conscience - but not when that conscience is solely to ensure that the other side fails or they are bought and paid for by some large company looking to cash in on everyone.
| 915 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:10:04pm |
| 916 |
windsagio Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:10:18pm |
re: #911 garhighway
No, anyone that disagrees with me must just not understand how the real world works! Do you agree with me?
| 917 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:10:21pm |
| 918 |
ArchangelMichael Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:10:30pm |
re: #904 Obdicut
Asking someone complaining about entitlement if they receive entitlements is a non-sequitur how, exactly?
You are implying that being concerned about government excesses means you should be concerned about any government action at all. This seems to be a common talking point among the left (and coming up here at LGF more often where people should know better) in debates over government programs and spending. Paint everyone on the other side as though they are anarchocapitalists.
| 919 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:10:31pm |
re: #900 Obdicut
If we didn't subsidize electricity (and heating oil) in this country, lots more people would die every year.
To pick just one thing from Steve's laundry-list.
of course, there is lots of picking there...like the TVA project, there are some winners I didn't mention...that was not my point, I'm not an anarchist and there is a role for govt
| 920 |
SixDegrees Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:10:32pm |
re: #903 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Well, My Toyota Highlander hit 210,000 miles today.
Congress is kicking Toyota hard!
It's the sort of issue Congress absolutely loves. A villain in every way, from being deceitful to being a foreigner, that they can parade in front of the nation to project an aura of "doing something." Bipartisanship reigns supreme in the hearing room.
They'll probably encourage more foreign auto manufacturers to expand their plants in the US, so they can have a steady supply of reliable scapegoats to toss snark at.
| 921 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:10:45pm |
re: #913 Guanxi88
Oooh! Somone's kept up with the Koan thread from many months ago.
Well done, shifu Walt!
Interesting... a new character on LOST this year is Dogen, who basically matches up to a real historical character Zen Master Dogen.
| 922 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:11:34pm |
re: #903 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Well, My Toyota Highlander hit 210,000 miles today.
Congress is kicking Toyota hard!
Obama has Chevy's to sell.
| 923 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:11:38pm |
re: #905 Kruk
You do understand the difference between the public option and single payer, don't you? Not to mention public financing and public provision of healthcare?
no, I am really stupid... just the product of the single payer educational system.
| 924 |
Digital Display Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:12:04pm |
re: #921 Walter L. Newton
Interesting... a new character on LOST this year is Dogen, who basically matches up to a real historical character Zen Master Dogen.
Walter...Did I read that you quit your job?
| 925 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:12:09pm |
re: #915 brookly red
he won't... I met him on the road.
That wasn't the buddha; that wasn't the road.
| 926 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:12:32pm |
re: #904 Obdicut
Asking someone complaining about entitlement if they receive entitlements is a non-sequitur how, exactly?
what I receive, I'm more than entitled to...I think you misinterpret 'entitlement' to serve an argument you want to engage in...go ahead
| 927 |
oldegeezr Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:12:36pm |
re: #891 windsagio
I hesitate to tell yeh windy... but we refer to yah guys and gurls as "stink pots"...OOOoh...ooo!
| 928 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:12:38pm |
re: #923 brookly red
no, I am really stupid... just the product of the single payer educational system.
hahahahaha. You're a dick. A funny one.
| 929 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:13:13pm |
re: #892 Guanxi88
Question for the room: It is my understanding that one of the goals of buddhism is the annihilation of the self, into the larger unity.
Question - if the self is an illusion, how does one eliminate it, and who is doing the elimination?
Here's a decent explanation of the 10 ox herding pictures that might help.
The pictures, poems and short pieces of prose tell how the student ventures into the wilderness in his search for "the Bull" (or "Ox"; a common metaphor for enlightenment, or the true self, or simply a regular human being), and how his efforts prove fruitless at first. Undeterred, he keeps searching and eventually finds footprints on a riverbank. When he sees the bull for the first time he is amazed by the splendour of its features ('empty and marvellous' is a well known phrase used to describe the perception of Buddha nature). However, the student has not tamed the bull, and must work hard to bring it under control. Eventually he reaches the highest Enlightenment, returns to the world and 'everyone I look upon becomes enlightened'.
It's a metaphor for one's relationship with their consciousness. It's not really a matter of "eliminating the self" but rather the point is to understand the nature of the "self" and its relationship to other things.
| 930 |
Kruk Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:13:15pm |
re: #918 ArchangelMichael
You are implying that being concerned about government excesses means you should be concerned about any government action at all. This seems to be a common talking point among the left (and coming up here at LGF more often where people should know better) in debates over government programs and spending. Paint everyone on the other side as though they are anarchocapitalists.
Yep. We need to end this entitlement mentality, but don't you dare touch *my* entitlements. Or put another way, "Keep your Goverment hands off my Medicare!"
| 931 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:13:25pm |
re: #925 Guanxi88
That wasn't the buddha; that wasn't the road.
I wasn't there & that's not my gun...
| 932 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:13:29pm |
| 933 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:13:54pm |
Ezra Klien on the Canadian dude and how it relates to the rest of us:
"America has about 50 million uninsured people within its borders. Canada has a 13f premiers. People should ask themselves a very simple question: Do they think they are likelier to lose their job and fall into the health-care situation of the uninsured? Or are they likelier to become an influential politician and enjoy the health-care options available to the most powerful people in the world?
If you're a United States senator, America may have the best health-care in the world. But if you're an ordinary person with the same vulnerability to bad luck that we all have, you're better off being in Canada, or France, or Japan, or somewhere that doesn't take your insurance away when Wall Street causes the economy to crash."
[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]
| 934 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:14:02pm |
re: #918 ArchangelMichael
No, I'm not.
Fuck it.
I'm out. Have fun declaring that liberalism has been a sum failure in every way. It's much easier than actually talking about a solution to anything.
| 935 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:14:09pm |
re: #914 JustJay
Here's what I would like on the Healthcare front.
My family has health insurance. She had to have Lithotripsy a year and a half ago. Each kidney had to be done separately.
$23,000.00 per procedure. Insurance paid $2,100.00 for each procedure, we had to pay 1,200.00 per procedure.
$46,000.00 if we were not insured, $6,600.00 insured.
I'd just like for them to find a way to stop dicking around with the numbers.
| 936 |
Joanne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:14:18pm |
re: #875 cliffster
Do you realize how untenable that position is? Today, we have treatments you never could have imagined decades ago. On one hand, we think everyone should get these treatments. On the other hand, we say we have to bring down the cost of medicine. It just doesn't work. The only way to level it is to make it so that nobody gets access to the best treatments - tell rich people they can't have the coverage they want even though they can afford it.
That's a lie. France is the #1 country in the world in healthcare. They have it for all. They also come up with innovations, as do the Swiss and other countries. We are hardly the only innovator.
I know a guy who went to France on vacation and had to have surgery. What would have cost $25,000 here, cost him $3,000 AS A FOREIGNER. It absolutely can and does work.
| 937 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:14:30pm |
| 938 |
Obdicut Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:14:31pm |
re: #934 Obdicut
Though I'll probably be back in two hours after this damn project is over, which is 3/4 of my bad mood.
| 939 |
windsagio Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:14:47pm |
re: #927 oldegeezr
As if I've never heard of that :p
Na, we just use the boat to get places and do things. The boat as its own end isn't really my thing :p
Its mad cool tho, whenever we wanna go up to the Island, we just call the marina and the boat is there weaiting for us. In season, we even have time to stop by and pick up some crabs.
If we were sailing, we'd have to probably keep the damn thing in the water most of the time, and it'd take too freakin' long to get there.
| 940 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:14:48pm |
re: #929 Killgore Trout
It's a metaphor for one's relationship with their consciousness. It's not really a matter of "eliminating the self" but rather the point is to understand the nature of the "self" and its relationship to other things.
Damn! These confucians, taoists, and commies I know certainly have a different take on it.
| 941 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:15:05pm |
I go to two different hospitals several different times a week along with two different medical buildings attached to those hospitals. I'm pushing my father around in a wheelchair for the endless round of doctors visits, lab tests, imaging scans, and chemo.
What do I see every time?
Medical salesman that almost outnumber the patients, well dressed pretty/handsome people in suits with a roll-along case cutting in front of us to see the doctor while we are waiting. They sometimes have appointments, sometimes not, many of them have set it up to have lunch delivered to the entire office by some caterer.
I look at them and see where the thousands we spend every month even after all our coverage are going. On any given day there must be 100 of them roaming around Bayfront and St. Anthony's and the medical buildings attached to them. How can you tell me that this is the best way to spend our medical dollars?
| 942 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:15:34pm |
re: #924 HoosierHoops
Walter...Did I read that you quit your job?
Yes. It seems I was upsetting the status quo, doing my job too well, district manager was complimenting me, had another employee who was acting a bit screwy to me, store manager didn't seem to want to help, and store manager didn't seem to want to support any ideas I have to increase sales and efficiency in the used furniture department.
I quit, sort of a square peg in a black hole. I'm very "A" type on a job, I don't do things halfway, it seems that I was maybe shaking up the norm or something.
Just not comfortable.
| 943 |
solomonpanting Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:15:46pm |
re: #920 SixDegrees
It's the sort of issue Congress absolutely loves. A villain in every way, from being deceitful to being a foreigner, that they can parade in front of the nation to project an aura of "doing something." Bipartisanship reigns supreme in the hearing room.
They'll probably encourage more foreign auto manufacturers to expand their plants in the US, so they can have a steady supply of reliable scapegoats to toss snark at.
Does the government still own GM? I'm wondering if the UAW is tickled pink?
| 944 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:16:02pm |
| 945 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:16:53pm |
re: #928 cliffster
hahahahaha. You're a dick. A funny one.
My **** is so big; it was framed for murder as part of an intricate prescription drug scandal.
| 946 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:17:30pm |
| 947 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:17:39pm |
re: #936 JustJay
That's a lie. France is the #1 country in the world in healthcare. They have it for all. They also come up with innovations, as do the Swiss and other countries. We are hardly the only innovator.
I know a guy who went to France on vacation and had to have surgery. What would have cost $25,000 here, cost him $3,000 AS A FOREIGNER. It absolutely can and does work.
Yes, and the average total tax responsibility of a citizen in France is 43 to 49 percent. And it can go higher. Does that work for you too?
| 948 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:18:09pm |
| 949 |
Bipartite Gnomenclature Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:18:27pm |
re: #476 albusteve
Chris Dodd should be in jail...Charlie Rangle is a thief and a liar...these people are paid to run our govt...what a sick joke...Pelosi is complicit in protecting Rangle...I hate these guys, these are not my kind of people...they alienate me...elitists
Not sure what an elitist is but am I right in thinking you call them elitists because they believe they're better than you but in reality they're not, you're better than them? Is that accurate?
| 951 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:19:01pm |
| 953 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:19:19pm |
re: #945 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
My *** is so big; it was framed for murder as part of an intricate prescription drug scandal.
My *** is so big, well nevermind, I'll need to much bigger thread before I can start talking about it.
| 954 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:19:32pm |
| 955 |
Joanne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:19:33pm |
re: #884 SixDegrees
Canada's health care system has actually been a small boon to the Detroit area, where a number of small specialty clinics have sprung up over the years to service Canadian customers. MRI clinics seem to be the most popular.
Interestingly, this has led to greater demand for small, cheap MRI machines; these have less capability than their full-size cousins, but are perfect for scanning an arm or a leg, for example. So the US gets a double benefit - they sell the service, and get the spinoff technology created by the new demands of the marketplace. Maybe someday we'll even wind up selling some of these smaller, cheaper machines to Canada, but change in government-run systems is glacially slow, so that won't happen anytime soon.
And the Canadian government pays for healthcare here when Canadian's cannot get what is needed there. (It's called OHIP - Ontario Health Insurance Plans. Each province differs on specifics, I can only speak to Ontario.)
| 956 |
windsagio Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:19:39pm |
re: #947 Walter L. Newton
Does the rest of their system work? Whats their standard of living?
*checks*
... yes.
| 957 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:19:49pm |
re: #936 JustJay
Downding for calling me a liar. You can come up with any story you want to and act like it proves your point. That's why I hate those stupid little anecdotes politicians always tell. what about the hard-working guy in Kansas.. how about the generous lady in Chicago. We can't give the very best cancer treatment to everyone with cancer, we can't give quadruple bypass to everyone with a clogged heart. If you say we can, I'll say you're wrong. won't call you a liar though
| 960 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:19:58pm |
| 961 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:20:42pm |
re: #935 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Here's what I would like on the Healthcare front.
My family has health insurance. She had to have Lithotripsy a year and a half ago. Each kidney had to be done separately.
$23,000.00 per procedure. Insurance paid $2,100.00 for each procedure, we had to pay 1,200.00 per procedure.
$46,000.00 if we were not insured, $6,600.00 insured.
I'd just like for them to find a way to stop dicking around with the numbers.
It's so shitty. If you have insurance, you don't see the difference in billing. If you don't have insurance, you get the full bill. For the rest of your life they'll be calling, unless you file BK.
| 962 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:21:25pm |
re: #945 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
My *** is so big; it was framed for murder as part of an intricate prescription drug scandal.
Mine is so big people gather under it for cover when there's a tornado
| 963 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:21:25pm |
re: #936 JustJay
That's a lie. France is the #1 country in the world in healthcare. They have it for all. They also come up with innovations, as do the Swiss and other countries. We are hardly the only innovator.
I know a guy who went to France on vacation and had to have surgery. What would have cost $25,000 here, cost him $3,000 AS A FOREIGNER. It absolutely can and does work.
French doctors and nurses don't make much money either
| 964 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:21:35pm |
re: #954 Guanxi88
When you talk to yourself, who is listening?
/the IRS, the NSA, the KOS... all the usual
| 965 |
Joanne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:21:50pm |
re: #897 brookly red
I only need to look north to reject a public "option"...
Really? I'd be interested in what you think you know about the Canadian system.
| 966 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:22:13pm |
re: #961 Stanley Sea
There's my problem.
And I have absofuckinglutely no idea what to do about it.
Hope these guys are smarter than me, but I'm beginning to have doubts.
| 968 |
windsagio Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:22:27pm |
re: #963 albusteve
Its not just about the doctors, its about the general standard of living in (wherever). I just checked France, they (usually) do really well.
| 969 |
Kruk Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:22:33pm |
re: #957 cliffster
Downding for calling me a liar. You can come up with any story you want to and act like it proves your point. That's why I hate those stupid little anecdotes politicians always tell. what about the hard-working guy in Kansas.. how about the generous lady in Chicago. We can't give the very best cancer treatment to everyone with cancer, we can't give quadruple bypass to everyone with a clogged heart. If you say we can, I'll say you're wrong. won't call you a liar though
Don't believe the anecodotes. Don't believe the statistics. (Cause the whole world is enganged in a conspiracy to make the American healthcare system look bad because we want to feel better about our own.) Just keep telling yourself that America's healthcare system is the best in the world.
| 970 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:22:43pm |
re: #897 brookly red
I only need to look north to reject a public "option"...
Why?
The option of a public option is not what they have in Canada.
| 971 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:22:47pm |
Oops, I guess the thread isn't moving as fast as I thought.
| 972 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:22:48pm |
re: #965 justjay
Really? I'd be interested in what you think you know about the Canadian system.
I know a lot of Canadians who hate it. No matter what feature story MSNBC wants to run. Again - the anecdotes I mentioned above
| 973 |
windsagio Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:23:24pm |
re: #971 Racer X
It was a brave try >
for me I"m gonna get some food at 1000, I need to push it along :)
| 974 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:23:26pm |
re: #969 Kruk
Don't believe the anecodotes. Don't believe the statistics. (Cause the whole world is enganged in a conspiracy to make the American healthcare system look bad because we want to feel better about our own.) Just keep telling yourself that America's healthcare system is the best in the world.
In some ways it is the best, in some ways it is not very good. Depends on how you want to measure it.
| 975 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:23:33pm |
re: #963 albusteve
French doctors and nurses don't make much money either
Just a hunch, but I'm betting they don't come out of school with ginormous debt to pay off, either.
| 976 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:23:42pm |
re: #968 windsagio
Its not just about the doctors, its about the general standard of living in (wherever). I just checked France, they (usually) do really well.
Eh, they had some - ahem!- unpleasantness not too long ago. Their national unemployment rate's not great - it's not Detroit bad, but it's not great by a long-shot.
| 978 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:23:53pm |
re: #956 windsagio
Does the rest of their system work? Whats their standard of living?
*checks*
... yes.
And your point? I was simply listing the tax rates. And I have spent a lot of time in France, and I would say that it works, for some, and doesn't work for others. Ever noticed how many strikes they have in any given year.
Are you aware of the amount of homelessness there are on the streets of major cities like Paris, per capita much larger than many US cities.
There is a lot of variable, some good, some bad.
I don't want to pay the government close to 50 percent taxes for any reason.
| 979 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:23:55pm |
I gotta go. Time to go all "John Coffey".
"Gonna hep a lady."
| 980 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:23:57pm |
re: #965 justjay
Really? I'd be interested in what you think you know about the Canadian system.
only that it is really good for the hospitals in upstate NY...
| 981 |
jaunte Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:24:08pm |
The French system evolved over an extended period:
NHI evolved, in stages, in response to demands for extension of coverage. Following its original passage in 1928, the NHI program covered salaried workers in industry and commerce whose wages were under a low ceiling.38,39 In 1945, NHI was extended to all industrial and commercial workers and their families, irrespective of wage levels. The extension of coverage took the rest of the century to complete. In 1961, farmers and agricultural workers were covered; in 1966, independent professionals were brought into the system; in 1974, another law proclaimed that NHI should be universal. Not until January 2000 was comprehensive first-dollar health insurance coverage granted to the remaining uninsured population on the basis of residence in France.
[Link: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...]
| 982 |
windsagio Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:24:21pm |
re: #976 Guanxi88
I coudln't find it directly (I didn't look too hard for that, I admit), hows it compare to the US?
| 984 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:24:48pm |
re: #941 ausador
I go to two different hospitals several different times a week along with two different medical buildings attached to those hospitals. I'm pushing my father around in a wheelchair for the endless round of doctors visits, lab tests, imaging scans, and chemo.
What do I see every time?
Medical salesman that almost outnumber the patients, well dressed pretty/handsome people in suits with a roll-along case cutting in front of us to see the doctor while we are waiting. They sometimes have appointments, sometimes not, many of them have set it up to have lunch delivered to the entire office by some caterer.
I look at them and see where the thousands we spend every month even after all our coverage are going. On any given day there must be 100 of them roaming around Bayfront and St. Anthony's and the medical buildings attached to them. How can you tell me that this is the best way to spend our medical dollars?
Not to mention the cost incoured when companies switch medical plans, like my last job did for 8 years in a row!
| 985 |
Kruk Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:24:49pm |
re: #972 cliffster
I know a lot of Canadians who hate it. No matter what feature story MSNBC wants to run. Again - the anecdotes I mentioned above
That's why I hate those stupid little anecdotes politicians always tell. what about the hard-working guy in Kansas.. how about the generous lady in Chicago.
Contradict yourself much? Either anecodotes are worth something or they are not.
| 986 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:24:59pm |
re: #972 cliffster
I know a lot of Canadians who hate it. No matter what feature story MSNBC wants to run. Again - the anecdotes I mentioned above
Some days I love the health care here in the U.S.
Other days not so much.
Not sure we need to spend a Trillion Dollars to make it better different though.
| 987 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:25:50pm |
re: #985 Kruk
That's why I hate those stupid little anecdotes politicians always tell. what about the hard-working guy in Kansas.. how about the generous lady in Chicago.
Contradict yourself much? Either anecodotes are worth something or they are not.
Er, actually I was saying the anecdotes are bad in both place. I really don't ever contradict myself - I'm very opinionated.
| 988 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:25:58pm |
re: #949 b_sharp
Not sure what an elitist is but am I right in thinking you call them elitists because they believe they're better than you but in reality they're not, you're better than them? Is that accurate?
I'm not better than anybody, that's not the point...they should both be investigated by congress, just like Rangle is being investigated by the FBI....the fact that Reid and Pelosi protect them makes me say they are elitists, never mind the fact that they are wealthy, prominent pols
| 989 |
windsagio Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:26:00pm |
re: #978 Walter L. Newton
Thats kind of hte problem tho'. You have a dislike of taxation in general, and don't think about what it means.
If taxes are higher, but alot of costs are lower because of better infastructure, government programs, etc, it balances out.
The kneejerk "I HATE TAXES" reaction seems to me either just emotional, or not that well thought out.
| 990 |
Ojoe Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:26:04pm |
Health care reform, the one year long shouting match brought to you by the political klutz, Obama.
| 991 |
SixDegrees Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:26:14pm |
re: #955 justjay
And the Canadian government pays for healthcare here when Canadian's cannot get what is needed there. (It's called OHIP - Ontario Health Insurance Plans. Each province differs on specifics, I can only speak to Ontario.)
Ontario is the province we're next to. These clinics arose because of high demand from the Canadian side of the border for services their own health care system either doesn't provide, or doesn't provide in a timely manner.
| 992 |
windsagio Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:26:35pm |
re: #989 windsagio
To clarify, taxes aren't bad in themselves, if you get value for them.
//Heresy, I know.
| 993 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:27:11pm |
re: #956 windsagio
Does the rest of their system work? Whats their standard of living?
*checks*
... yes.
it should work with the astronomical funding from their govt
| 994 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:27:16pm |
| 995 |
Kruk Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:27:31pm |
re: #992 windsagio
To clarify, taxes aren't bad in themselves, if you get value for them.
//Heresy, I know.
You commie!
//
| 996 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:27:43pm |
re: #989 windsagio
Thats kind of hte problem tho'. You have a dislike of taxation in general, and don't think about what it means.
If taxes are higher, but alot of costs are lower because of better infastructure, government programs, etc, it balances out.
The kneejerk "I HATE TAXES" reaction seems to me either just emotional, or not that well thought out.
I don't hate taxes.
| 997 |
goddamnedfrank Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:27:50pm |
re: #963 albusteve
French doctors and nurses don't make much money either
Yeah, but they get to live in France. That means everyone gets paid for overtime, eight weeks and twelve vacation days paid time off per year along with all the soft cheese they can eat. It's a package deal. You're not down with it. We get that.
| 998 |
windsagio Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:27:53pm |
re: #993 albusteve
If it works and they have a great standard of living, whats the harm?
Is it just grounded in philosophy?
| 999 |
brookly red Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:28:21pm |
re: #993 albusteve
it should work with the astronomical funding from their govt
they don't cover plane tickets to the US....
| 1000 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:28:33pm |
| 1001 |
Ojoe Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:28:36pm |
re: #941 ausador
When my mom was really sick, and stubborn, and we couldn't convince her to go to a doctor, no doctor would make a house call.
The system is funky and it is not just the insurance companies.
| 1002 |
windsagio Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:28:41pm |
re: #996 Walter L. Newton
"I don't want to pay 50% taxes for any reason"
Implies you just don't liek taxes >>
| 1003 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:28:42pm |
re: #982 windsagio
I coudln't find it directly (I didn't look too hard for that, I admit), hows it compare to the US?
For 18 - 24 year olds, about 20%, national rates for the older population not much better:
[Link: ipsnews.net...]
For 2009, it was about 9.5% nation-wide:
[Link: www.insee.fr...]
But the French don't count people who've quit looking for work as unemployed after 1 year out of the market, so, like here, who the hell knows?
| 1004 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:29:06pm |
re: #992 windsagio
To clarify, taxes aren't bad in themselves, if you get value for them.
//Heresy, I know.
Well, thats the thing innit?
I don't mind paying taxes. I do mind devious politicians taking that money and spending it on things it was not intended for. Then asking for more money to pay for the first thing.
| 1005 |
Kragar Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:29:08pm |
Banging my head against the desk. On my admin desktop, I came in and it was hung because they did a software update and it didn't reboot right, so I shut it down and had it reconnect. Took 15 minutes for it to come back up, and since I have a lot to do later, I went an initiated another software update. It went ahead and told me to reboot, so I did, another 20 minutes wasted as it configured itself, applied the patches and rebooted. So finally I log in and try to get set for the work tonight and 10 minutes later, bam, your computer needs to reboot because of a software update, looking at another 20 minutes of sitting here.
BAM BAM BAM.
| 1006 |
Joanne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:29:15pm |
re: #935 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
That shows everything that is wrong with this system. It shows why families go bankrupt, lose their homes and sometimes their lives.
| 1007 |
windsagio Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:29:25pm |
re: #1000 cliffster
Physician salaries are only part of the equation. We also have to look at physician school debt, standard of living, quality of care, etc. etc.
| 1008 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:29:28pm |
re: #1000 cliffster
That would be neat if they were all baselined on a single currency.
They do on the left side columns.
| 1009 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:29:38pm |
re: #998 windsagio
If it works and they have a great standard of living, whats the harm?
Is it just grounded in philosophy?
Highest standard of living - Monaco
Highest taxes - Sweden and Norway
Highest standard of health care - France
Highest wages - UK
Best ratio of earnings / cost of living France
Source(s):
UN statistics
| 1010 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:29:44pm |
re: #975 garhighway
Just a hunch, but I'm betting they don't come out of school with ginormous debt to pay off, either.
maybe not, I don't know...but it is a problem here imo
| 1011 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:30:12pm |
| 1013 |
webevintage Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:30:44pm |
Wow.
Stay classy Republicans:
[Link: thinkprogress.org...]
Heller said the current economic downturn and policies may bring back the hobos of the Great Depression, people who wandered the country taking odd jobs. He said a study found that people who are out of work longer than two years have only a 50 percent chance of getting back into the workforce. “I believe there should be a federal safety net,” Heller said, but he questioned the wisdom of extending unemployment benefits yet again to a total of 24 months, which Congress is doing. “Is the government now creating hobos?” he asked.
| 1014 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:30:59pm |
re: #1009 Walter L. Newton
Highest standard of living - Monaco
Highest taxes - Sweden and Norway
Highest standard of health care - France
Highest wages - UK
Best ratio of earnings / cost of living France
Source(s):
UN statistics
Hottest chicks: Brazil
| 1015 |
Digital Display Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:31:03pm |
re: #942 Walter L. Newton
Yes. It seems I was upsetting the status quo, doing my job too well, district manager was complimenting me, had another employee who was acting a bit screwy to me, store manager didn't seem to want to help, and store manager didn't seem to want to support any ideas I have to increase sales and efficiency in the used furniture department.
I quit, sort of a square peg in a black hole. I'm very "A" type on a job, I don't do things halfway, it seems that I was maybe shaking up the norm or something.
Just not comfortable.
huh...It's not my life and I respect you choice...
But you finally get a full time job and you quit before you found something else?
Even if I was shoveling shit I'd find another job before I quit..Sometimes shit wins over principles....
But it's your life....BTW.. We are starting to hire again with 5k bonuses to find the most excellant PL/SQL programmers to write Oracle forms..We are combining Databases from every country into one Oracle Dbase...Every country has been doing the code their own way for decades..
One Oracle Global Database instance.. It will cost millions.
Email me your resume in the morning.. I like your code and form..Bitch!
.
| 1016 |
jamesfirecat Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:32:16pm |
re: #1014 cliffster
Hottest chicks: Brazil
Yes I believe that was discovered thanks to the UN council's latest scientific breakthrough the "bonenomiter!"
| 1017 |
windsagio Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:32:22pm |
re: #1004 Racer X
Oh sure. It just gets so freakin' doctrinaire in the US sometimes.
Look at poor GHW Bush. He had to raise taxes for good reason (even tho I know he promised not to) and it destroyed him.
Too many of us have the mindset that 'taxes are a bad thing no matter what'.
And that's harmful.
re: #1009 Walter L. Newton
thanks walter :)
/Oops, over 1000, bbl :p (I try to do better than Presidents at keeping my promises :D)
| 1018 |
SixDegrees Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:32:27pm |
re: #961 Stanley Sea
It's so shitty. If you have insurance, you don't see the difference in billing. If you don't have insurance, you get the full bill. For the rest of your life they'll be calling, unless you file BK.
One strategy that's been reported to work in these cases is to contact the hospital and demand to know what they charge for the same procedure when, for example, Blue Cross or Aetna is the one paying the bill. They'll himm and haw like crazy, but if you're persistent the amount charged begins shrinking rather dramatically.
A call from an attorney can also prod things along. It might cost a hundred bucks to have them pick up the phone or draft a letter, but faced with a bill that large, it's worth it if the end result is a reduction to a more reasonable price.
Raising a stink up front about the cost, both direct and that charged to insurance companies, can also be effective. Hospitals aren't used to consumer pressures, and their skins haven't thickened to the point where they're immune to them yet.
As I've posted before, making patients responsible for costs through some sort of proxy system has been shown to dramatically reduce costs, with prescription copays being the classic example. Extending this sort of scheme, where preferred drugs (or services) are fully covered while more expensive, proprietary drugs or services are charged a small but not insignificant amount, to health care as a whole is something worth exploring.
| 1019 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:32:58pm |
re: #1014 cliffster
Highest standard of living - Monaco
Highest taxes - Sweden and Norway
Highest standard of health care - France
Highest wages - UK
Best ratio of earnings / cost of living France
Source(s):
UN statistics
Hottest chicks: Brazil
Best beer: Ireland
| 1020 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:33:10pm |
| 1022 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:34:08pm |
| 1023 |
sagehen Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:34:34pm |
re: #894 Kruk
If you know the candlelight is fire, the meal was cooked long ago.
(Bonus marks to anyone who gets that one.)
(what can I redeem the points for?)
| 1024 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:34:56pm |
Hello all!
Did anything get resolved, or did we learn anything today?
How are you-all?
| 1028 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:35:31pm |
re: #1020 albusteve
my son is in dental school...the cost is utterly breathtaking
Sweet. When he graduates think we can come up with an LGF plan? You'll get visitors as a side benefit.
| 1029 |
Kruk Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:35:36pm |
re: #1023 sagehen
[Video](what can I redeem the points for?)
Geek credits. They're priceless at any SF convention.
| 1030 |
Joanne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:35:37pm |
re: #947 Walter L. Newton
Yes, and the average total tax responsibility of a citizen in France is 43 to 49 percent. And it can go higher. Does that work for you too?
Gee, I don't know. Let's see. I pay about ~20% in taxes (own several properties, various deductions, blah blah blah). My insurance costs $12,000 annually in premiums. I have a $1k deductible and a copay on every single line item which might be done, beit a test, procedure, office visit, whatever. I also had really shitty coverage (Unicare GAG-ACK-BARF). Now I have Blue Cross. It just kicked in in January. Hopefully the coverage will be better.
49% is looking pretty damned good if I had the kind of coverage France does.
| 1031 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:35:53pm |
re: #1020 albusteve
my son is in dental school...the cost is utterly breathtaking
The whole cost of higher education seems crazy. And it creates all kinds of distortions in those fields.
Best to your son. He must be pretty smart to be hacking it in dental school.
| 1032 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:36:32pm |
re: #942 Walter L. Newton
Yes. It seems I was upsetting the status quo, doing my job too well, district manager was complimenting me, had another employee who was acting a bit screwy to me, store manager didn't seem to want to help, and store manager didn't seem to want to support any ideas I have to increase sales and efficiency in the used furniture department.
I quit, sort of a square peg in a black hole. I'm very "A" type on a job, I don't do things halfway, it seems that I was maybe shaking up the norm or something.
Just not comfortable.
I know just how you feel, Walter. A new 2 week trial period at an Architect's Office ended after 2 days because I wanted to do the roofing details correctly (which is why they hired me in the first place), and they wanted a schlock drawing job instead. Right now, I've taken a gig as a security guard at a catering hall/synagogue in order to make ends meet. Pays less but doesn't ask me to compromise my standards!
| 1033 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:37:16pm |
re: #1015 HoosierHoops
Will do.
Like I said above, there was on crazy guy that threatened me twice, and the store manager would not deal with it. That wasn't on top of my list, but it certainly was part of my decision. I found a lot of reluctance on the store managers part to take responsibility for anything... he was more like a facilitator, not someone who proactively managed.
Not a real secure feeling.
| 1034 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:38:27pm |
re: #1030 justjay
Gee, I don't know. Let's see. I pay about ~20% in taxes (own several properties, various deductions, blah blah blah). My insurance costs $12,000 annually in premiums. I have a $1k deductible and a copay on every single line item which might be done, beit a test, procedure, office visit, whatever. I also had really shitty coverage (Unicare GAG-ACK-BARF). Now I have Blue Cross. It just kicked in in January. Hopefully the coverage will be better.
49% is looking pretty damned good if I had the kind of coverage France does.
Bye...
| 1035 |
Joanne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:38:47pm |
re: #957 cliffster
I didn't call YOU a liar, I said it was a lie. Whether you believe the lie is up to you. Down ding me all you want. The truth is what it is.
| 1036 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:39:03pm |
| 1037 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:39:52pm |
re: #1036 SanFranciscoZionist
German beer is not bad.
The problem with a german beer is that after you've had a few, you start knocking on your neighbor's door and throwing his ass OUT of your place.
| 1038 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:40:30pm |
re: #1036 SanFranciscoZionist
German beer is not bad.
I guess. But they seem more into lagers and wheat beers and that sort of thing. I'm an ale and stout consumer myself, so Ireland suits me.
Plus it's full of Irish, and they're fun.
| 1039 |
Racer X Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:41:00pm |
re: #1036 SanFranciscoZionist
German beer is not bad.
Best beer I ever had - I made it.
Worst beer I ever had - I made it.
| 1040 |
Joanne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:41:11pm |
re: #972 cliffster
I know a lot of Canadians who hate it. No matter what feature story MSNBC wants to run. Again - the anecdotes I mentioned above
And I live there part time. I do not know one single Canadian who would trade their system for ours. Not one.
| 1041 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:41:20pm |
re: #1038 garhighway
I guess. But they seem more into lagers and wheat beers and that sort of thing. I'm an ale and stout consumer myself, so Ireland suits me.
Plus it's full of Irish, and they're fun.
And the golf is great.
| 1042 |
Ojoe Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:41:35pm |
re: #1038 garhighway
Any money you earn from art in Ireland is not taxed.
| 1043 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:41:52pm |
| 1044 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:42:19pm |
re: #1042 Ojoe
Any money you earn from art in Ireland is not taxed.
No wonder it's a nation of bards and such-like. Tax-dodgers the lot of them!
| 1045 |
garhighway Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:42:59pm |
re: #1044 Guanxi88
No wonder it's a nation of bards and such-like. Tax-dodgers the lot of them!
Took a Literary Pub Crawl in Dublin once.
Enormous fun.
| 1046 |
cliffster Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:43:29pm |
re: #1040 JustJay
And I live there part time. I do not know one single Canadian who would trade their system for ours. Not one.
*shrug* your experience is different from mine.
| 1047 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:45:09pm |
re: #1045 garhighway
Took a Literary Pub Crawl in Dublin once.
Enormous fun.
I made the mistake of going out drinking in Boston and bumping into a small squad of Irish students.
Late in the morning the next day, I woke up in a place where I'd never been before, and where the people didn't know me or have any clue as to how I ended up drunk in their house. Oh, and it was the next county over. Had to bum train fare and ask directions to the train station.
I don't know what all happened, but I'm betting it was fun.
| 1048 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:46:07pm |
re: #1040 JustJay
And I live there part time. I do not know one single Canadian who would trade their system for ours. Not one.
How about the Premier of Newfoundland
| 1049 |
Stonemason Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:46:08pm |
re: #1018 SixDegrees
and a large increase in the co-pay for emergency room visits tend to limit those visits for non-emergency care. We did that 3 years ago in the CBA, showed a decrease, and costs are still going up.
What to do? Not sure, to be honest, but raising taxes on almost everyone just does not seem to be the answer.
Admittedly I do not know the answer and will continue to read as much as I can.
| 1050 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:46:16pm |
re: #1009 Walter L. Newton
Highest standard of living - Monaco
Highest taxes - Sweden and Norway
Highest standard of health care - France
Highest wages - UK
Best ratio of earnings / cost of living France
Source(s):
UN statistics
Monaco is so tiny and wealthy that it probably doesn't count for European averages anyway. It's more like an affluent suburb than a real country.
| 1051 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:46:20pm |
Oh come on, we all know that in Canada, France, England, and all other countries with nationalized/single payer healthcare people die every day from untreated ingrown toenails that they had to wait for months to get treated!
"U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A." we are motherfucking number !111!!!eleventy1!!
///nevermind those first hand accounts from people who live there, listen to our partisan talk show pundits they know better!
| 1052 |
Joanne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:46:37pm |
re: #991 SixDegrees
Ontario is the province we're next to. These clinics arose because of high demand from the Canadian side of the border for services their own health care system either doesn't provide, or doesn't provide in a timely manner.
Which Ontario pays for. They work on a triage system. Those who are the sickest get care first. I have no problem with that. If I was sicker than someone who had better insurance, I'd possibly be dead.
Who would be my mother in law-in law (er, sorta - future sister in law's mother in law) just died of an ever evolving cancer (it was brutal). She got STELLAR care at no cost. None. No financial ruin. Top notch care, top notch hospice at the end.
| 1053 |
Digital Display Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:46:40pm |
re: #1033 Walter L. Newton
Will do.
Like I said above, there was on crazy guy that threatened me twice, and the store manager would not deal with it. That wasn't on top of my list, but it certainly was part of my decision. I found a lot of reluctance on the store managers part to take responsibility for anything... he was more like a facilitator, not someone who proactively managed.
Not a real secure feeling.
Thats the difference between working for a Goodwill store and a world class corporation..The people...
Management rocks.. They just sent me a 21 speed mountain bike as a gift..
* you ok..are you happy?*
I'm cool
We'll ship it free to you in Singapore
Thanks...Uh nice if you shipped my car
Nobody drives in Singapore
Taxi's and trains?
We can get you a rate on a rental..
So you'll ship the bike right?
*should have bought the hoopster a watch*
| 1054 |
albusteve Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:48:12pm |
re: #1048 Walter L. Newton
How about the Premier of Newfoundland
I can't believe he would say such a thing....thousands of Canadians come here for all sorts of stuff...and this post was big news
| 1055 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:48:15pm |
re: #1053 HoosierHoops
Email incoming to you, or pick it up at the shop tomorrow, it went to your work address.
| 1056 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:49:13pm |
re: #1054 albusteve
I can't believe he would say such a thing...thousands of Canadians come here for all sorts of stuff...and this post was big news
Waiting for JustJay's reply in 5,4,3,2,1... crickets?
| 1057 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:49:36pm |
re: #1053 HoosierHoops
Thats the difference between working for a Goodwill store and a world class corporation..The people...
Management rocks.. They just sent me a 21 speed mountain bike as a gift..
* you ok..are you happy?*
I'm cool
We'll ship it free to you in Singapore
Thanks...Uh nice if you shipped my car
Nobody drives in Singapore
Taxi's and trains?
We can get you a rate on a rental..
So you'll ship the bike right?
*should have bought the hoopster a watch*
Won't need your vehicle in Singapore, nearly everyone takes the MRT instead! When do you go, BTW?
| 1058 |
Kruk Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:50:05pm |
re: #1048 Walter L. Newton
How about the Premier of Newfoundland
Okay, you got us. If you're wealthy, the US health system undoubtedly is the best on the planet. For everyone else, it's a lot greyer.
| 1059 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:50:20pm |
I wish I could get a handle on this Health Care situation.
My first quandry:
Since the beginning of time, health issues have ruined individuals and families. Like food, clothing and shelter, weather and just bad situations politically, people get f*cked.
Do we, as a society, think we can change the paradigm or are we just trying to establish mimimum acceptable levels of care?
I think we have a handle on the food, clothing and shelter dilemna. WE have systems available and I think they work as well as we can hope them to. Nothing will ever be perfect.
Second question: Do we have the ability to administrate this? Third: Can we pay for it? Fourth: I think we can have a reasonable cap on tangibles like food, clothing and shelter --how do we establish caps on healthcare?
| 1060 |
Joanne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:50:25pm |
re: #1034 Walter L. Newton
You asked so I provided numbers. You write me off for that?
| 1061 |
Digital Display Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:50:55pm |
re: #1036 SanFranciscoZionist
German beer is not bad.
All I ask is someday you and the Hubbie drop into Tommy's Joint someday and raise a toast with a Green Rooster beer to me...
We used to go dancing over on front street at the dance clubs..
| 1062 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:51:30pm |
re: #1060 JustJay
You asked so I provided numbers. You write me off for that?
My guess:
He's suggesting that since France looks like a good deal to you, you might wish to avail yourself of your freedom of travel...
| 1063 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:52:31pm |
re: #1048 Walter L. Newton
How about the Premier of Newfoundland
WE do seem to have cornered the market on Heart care.
| 1064 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:53:36pm |
re: #1062 Guanxi88
My guess:
He's suggesting that since France looks like a good deal to you, you might wish to avail yourself of your freedom of travel...
I'll warn you, though - there's a lot of foreigners once you get outside the United States.
//
| 1065 |
Digital Display Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:53:36pm |
re: #1055 Walter L. Newton
Email incoming to you, or pick it up at the shop tomorrow, it went to your work address.
Thanks...I saw it on the Blackberry.. I'll call you this weekend
| 1066 |
Kruk Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:55:14pm |
re: #1062 Guanxi88
My guess:
He's suggesting that since France looks like a good deal to you, you might wish to avail yourself of your freedom of travel...
Ah yes. If someone dares suggest that another country does things better, tell them they can always pack up and leave. What incredibly mature way of learning from others.
| 1067 |
sagehen Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:55:33pm |
re: #969 Kruk
Don't believe the anecodotes. Don't believe the statistics. (Cause the whole world is enganged in a conspiracy to make the American healthcare system look bad because we want to feel better about our own.) Just keep telling yourself that America's healthcare system is the best in the world.
Those stats about "best in the world" or "37th best" look at the population as an aggregate, and the tens of millions whose only access to care is at the ER drag down the average. Sucks to be them.
But individually, if you fall into the "money's no object" category -- then we do have the best medical care anywhere.
| 1068 |
Joanne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:55:49pm |
re: #1056 Walter L. Newton
Waiting for JustJay's reply in 5,4,3,2,1... crickets?
No, I responded to this in a different post.
My netbook is puking on this thread. It's too big for this little thing to deal with (I'm in a hotel - with a good connection for a change).
You can deride me all you want. And you can continue to think we have the best in the world. We don't.
I am not saying we don't get good care - IF someone can afford it. But American's deserve better. Whether you like what I have to say or not.
And if I do not respond it is not because I don't care to, it is because I cannot.
| 1069 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:56:04pm |
re: #1060 JustJay
You asked so I provided numbers. You write me off for that?
Have you lived there? Have you spent a appreciable amount of time there to see first hand certain things? How familiar are you with the culture at a personal level?
Well I am. And I love France. I would not recommend a American to move there just because they think it's some paradise... it's far from it... there are major problems.
Why do you think Nicky got elected? He's a conservative (in the European sense). He shook up the status quo because it was fucking getting to out of control, the taxes, the lack of services, the unemployment.
Do some research before you shoot off your mouth.
How's that Canadian Premier thing working out for you? Now you know at least ONE Canadian that doesn't like the quality of care.
| 1070 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:57:41pm |
re: #1066 Kruk
Ah yes. If someone dares suggest that another country does things better, tell them they can always pack up and leave. What incredibly mature way of learning from others.
Not what he was suggesting at all. If a place looks good to you, if it looks like a good deal, why wouldn't you move?
| 1071 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:59:13pm |
System is slow and driving me crazy.
bbl on a different computer.
:)
| 1072 |
Joanne Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:59:15pm |
re: #1062 Guanxi88
My guess:
He's suggesting that since France looks like a good deal to you, you might wish to avail yourself of your freedom of travel...
Perfect way to handle a crisis of national proportions. Tell people who think we, as a country, deserve better to leave.
| 1073 |
Walter L. Newton Thu, Feb 25, 2010 4:00:09pm |
re: #1072 JustJay
Perfect way to handle a crisis of national proportions. Tell people who think we, as a country, deserve better to leave.
JusyJay... it's rhetoric, libel, debating.
| 1074 |
Kruk Thu, Feb 25, 2010 4:00:18pm |
re: #1070 Guanxi88
Not what he was suggesting at all. If a place looks good to you, if it looks like a good deal, why wouldn't you move?
Because you love your country? Because you think it's good but it could be better? Saying "If X is so good, why don't you go there?" simply dismisses the idea that one can work to improve one's own country by learning from others.
| 1075 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 4:00:25pm |
re: #1072 JustJay
Perfect way to handle a crisis of national proportions. Tell people who think we, as a country, deserve better to leave.
It's a crisis, is it? Or is it a systems adjustment that needs to be made?
A crisis - well, I sorta reserve that term for things that are, well, crises.
| 1076 |
Guanxi88 Thu, Feb 25, 2010 4:01:37pm |
re: #1074 Kruk
Because you love your country? Because you think it's good but it could be better? Saying "If X is so good, why don't you go there?" simply dismisses the idea that one can work to improve one's own country by learning from others.
Yep, Lord knows, there's no close-minded provincial like old Walt.
Baby Moses on a moped! It's gotten to the point that one must go through the tedious business of EXPLAINING a humorous quip.
| 1077 |
Kruk Thu, Feb 25, 2010 4:01:51pm |
re: #1073 Walter L. Newton
JusyJay... it's rhetoric, libel, debating.
Rhetoric? Much like, oh, I don't know, saying "I can't think of a single Canadian...."?
| 1078 |
oldegeezr Thu, Feb 25, 2010 4:01:54pm |
re: #939 windsagio
Yeh know, one time in my rather undistinguished life, I actually considered sailing around the world in a trimaran…!
Not a catamaran, a trimaran, three hulls.
I actually purchased the plans for a 36 footer…still have them.
Took them [the Jim Brown plans]to a builder in Hong Kong, still couldn’t afford his really good price, while stationed in SE Asia.
Oh well so much fer yer dreams…
Pirates in the South China Sea, mighta’ got hold of my sorry boney arse, before I left the hemisphere…?
Hang on tight too yer dreams...
Believe…!
BTW: Jimbo Brown sailed into the sunset and was never, ever heard from again almost thirty years ago...!
Gotta luv his fine marine diagrams...for that 36 foot tri-hull...!
| 1079 |
Digital Display Thu, Feb 25, 2010 4:04:10pm |
re: #1057 Surabaya Stew
Won't need your vehicle in Singapore, nearly everyone takes the MRT instead! When do you go, BTW?
This fall....I work out of Silly Cone Valley and get moved around every 3 years or so...I work for a very large Japanese Corporation.. Every body rotates.. It's the culture of the company...Even the CEO or CIO know its a position not a destination...They feel it refreshes the workforce...
Either way..I'd fucking do anything to get the hell out of Indiana..I'm over it...
If you do a good joy you get a better transfer...One of my good buddies is in Australia . Bastard! He fell in love and got married with a Aussie girl!
The guy I'm replacing already sent the email with all the great places to hang or eat in the city...I've been told that Singapore girls love Americans..
(especially one's with cool dogs)
.
| 1081 |
Kruk Thu, Feb 25, 2010 4:05:35pm |
re: #1076 Guanxi88
Yep, Lord knows, there's no close-minded provincial like old Walt.
Baby Moses on a moped! It's gotten to the point that one must go through the tedious business of EXPLAINING a humorous quip.
If that "humorous" quip is on the level of "America: Love it or leave it", then yes, expect it to be challenged. I have dealt with far too much exclusionary crap under the guise of "humour" or "satire" to let it go unanswered.
| 1082 |
Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You Thu, Feb 25, 2010 4:06:05pm |
A lot of this seems to be coming from the completely unchallenged statements aired by the press almost every day that the U.S. is the sole source of medical innovation and new treatment regimes.
Sorry but perhaps you might want to look up the actual history of many of the cutting edge medical treatments...
Overseas the U.S. is known as being hidebound and slow to accept new treatment methodologies. Nowadays when we do accept new treatment regimes it usually has been proven for many years in Europe first. You can thank the F.D.A. and the A.M.A. for that shit, sure we get a bunch of patents for new drugs every year, but the french, Germans, Italians, English, et;al, get more.
Hell, actually pretty much all the drug companies are foreign owned anyway and have labs in multiple countries. Yet we are told that by controlling health care profits here we will stifle all research into new treatments....
Oh Really?
| 1083 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Thu, Feb 25, 2010 4:12:23pm |
re: #1079 HoosierHoops
This fall...I work out of Silly Cone Valley and get moved around every 3 years or so...I work for a very large Japanese Corporation.. Every body rotates.. It's the culture of the company...Even the CEO or CIO know its a position not a destination...They feel it refreshes the workforce...
Either way..I'd fucking do anything to get the hell out of Indiana..I'm over it...
If you do a good joy you get a better transfer...One of my good buddies is in Australia . Bastard! He fell in love and got married with a Aussie girl!
The guy I'm replacing already sent the email with all the great places to hang or eat in the city...I've been told that Singapore girls love Americans..
(especially one's with cool dogs)
.
I read about your upcoming adventure with a little envy. What a great opportunity! But well deserved, from what I've learned reading Hoops over the last few months.
| 1084 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 4:16:39pm |
re: #1079 HoosierHoops
This fall...I work out of Silly Cone Valley and get moved around every 3 years or so...I work for a very large Japanese Corporation.. Every body rotates.. It's the culture of the company...Even the CEO or CIO know its a position not a destination...They feel it refreshes the workforce...
Either way..I'd fucking do anything to get the hell out of Indiana..I'm over it...
If you do a good joy you get a better transfer...One of my good buddies is in Australia . Bastard! He fell in love and got married with a Aussie girl!
The guy I'm replacing already sent the email with all the great places to hang or eat in the city...I've been told that Singapore girls love Americans..
(especially one's with cool dogs)
.
Ah, thats good! Should leave you plenty of time to prepare. Don't know about the dogs bit, but girls from the entire region love American guys regardless of their pet situation! Singapore is a fantastic hub to explore the entire region, you can choose from all kinds of wonderful countries and cultures to visit for a weekend trip. (Personally I'd recommended Indonesia, as I'm totally biased towards their women!) I'd be happy to email you with more info and background on your new 3-year abode if you would like.
:-)
| 1085 |
Digital Display Thu, Feb 25, 2010 4:20:15pm |
re: #1084 Surabaya Stew
Ah, thats good! Should leave you plenty of time to prepare. Don't know about the dogs bit, but girls from the entire region love American guys regardless of their pet situation! Singapore is a fantastic hub to explore the entire region, you can choose from all kinds of wonderful countries and cultures to visit for a weekend trip. (Personally I'd recommended Indonesia, as I'm totally biased towards their women!) I'd be happy to email you with more info and background on your new 3-year abode if you would like.
:-)
I plan to play golf in KL.. I understand it's the place to visit...
Would love your input... Because I've had issues with posting my email here with stalkers could you email reine and we'll touch base...
Nice meeting you
| 1086 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 4:33:14pm |
re: #1085 HoosierHoops
I plan to play golf in KL.. I understand it's the place to visit...
Would love your input... Because I've had issues with posting my email here with stalkers could you email reine and we'll touch base...
Nice meeting you
Have emailed reine and am awaiting to hear from you. KL is a great place to visit; would defiantly recommend going there before Jakarta if you've never been to that part for the world before. In fact, you can think of Singapore, Malaysia, and Indonesia as ascending and descending in ranks of wealth, safety, culture and sexyiness of the women (or any other variable) in that order! All of them have similar cultural underpinnings and a trip to any one of them is incomplete without the others, IMHO.
| 1087 |
Digital Display Thu, Feb 25, 2010 4:36:09pm |
re: #1086 Surabaya Stew
Have emailed reine and am awaiting to hear from you. KL is a great place to visit; would defiantly recommend going there before Jakarta if you've never been to that part for the world before. In fact, you can think of Singapore, Malaysia, and Indonesia as ascending and descending in ranks of wealth, safety, culture and sexyiness of the women (or any other variable) in that order! All of them have similar cultural underpinnings and a trip to any one of them is incomplete without the others, IMHO.
Look forward to hearing from you!
| 1088 |
Surabaya Stew Thu, Feb 25, 2010 4:48:30pm |
re: #1087 HoosierHoops
Look forward to hearing from you!
Same here! Now its about waiting for Reine to either give your email to me or vice versa....
| 1089 |
Vambo Thu, Feb 25, 2010 6:49:33pm |
re: #1048 Walter L. Newton
How about the Premier of Newfoundland
Disingenuous and you know it. He said "trade their system", as in the entire package with HMOs and pre-existing conditions and employer-based care... you post a story about a wealthy man who came the US for one specific treatment.
| 1090 |
Cato the Elder Thu, Feb 25, 2010 7:25:43pm |
re: #37 Diego
I'm in the UK at the moment and heath care is fully covered by sales tax. I like it a lot. I've never had to wait for anything and everything is covered.
I know most of you will think this is evil, but it's not.
Being satisfied with anything that's not making money for private owners is not only evil, its un-Amerkin!
| 1091 |
kirkspencer Fri, Feb 26, 2010 7:12:00am |
re: #1048 Walter L. Newton
How about the Premier of Newfoundland
Mr. Williams went to Mount Sinai in Miami to have mitral valve reconstruction surgery, to correct mitral valve regurgitation. One of the top surgeons in the world for this treatment is Dr. Thierry Mesana, who is the University of Ottawa Heart Institute's chief of cardiac surgery. So since one of (if not the) top recognized experts on treatment is in Canada, why go to Miami?
Because Dr. Mesana won't do the surgery via minimal invasive process -- a small incision under the armpit instead of a larger incision through the front, except for very rare circumstances. In fact, only four cardiac centers in Canada do this procedure regularly, and while the surgeons at those centers are good, the ones at Mount Sinai in Miami are better.
In other words, Mr. Williams went there because it was the best possible surgery option given his insistence on cosmetic interest.
I'll add that Dr. Mesana reports that the reason he goes from the front is that there's a lower chance of later complications; in particular strokes.
More details at this link.
| 1092 |
Buck Fri, Feb 26, 2010 7:44:14am |
re: #194 Stanley Sea
Becerra did well in calling him out on it. "You've used the CBO repeatedly in the past..."
I know this is a day late, but the CBO has not scored the current bill. Every time the President or other say the CBO scored this bill, they don't include the $60 billion tax gift they gave to the Unions. Or any of the other sweat heart deals.
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