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1092 comments
1 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:05:12am

Had a small problem with the video code when I first posted. It's fixed now if you reload.

2 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:05:57am

Working for me. Thanks

3 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:08:44am

Wow a real idea.
Finally.

I like the exchanges too and think his idea is a good one.

4 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:14:34am

Oh, this is interesting.
The feed is on The Sunlight Foundation and they have a list of each speakers largest donors up as they speak.
[Link: sunlightfoundation.com...]

5 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:15:10am

i missed the first thread and unable to hear the pre-lunch talks. Did they bring up fining people who don't carry insurance?

6 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:16:08am

Tom Harkin shoots it out of the park!

7 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:16:11am

re: #5 Cannadian Club Akbar

i missed the first thread and unable to hear the pre-lunch talks. Did they bring up fining people who don't carry insurance?

Mandates have been touched on.

8 Vambo  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:17:17am

re: #6 Diego

Tom Harkin shoots it out of the park!

what'd he say???

9 Girth  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:17:25am

Fox just cut away.

10 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:18:51am

re: #9 Girth

Fox just cut away.

We'd like to show you more but frankly it would interfere with the preconceived narrative we're trying to uphold!

11 Vambo  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:18:53am

re: #9 Girth

Fox just cut away.

what's the breaking news this time? ACORN? Bill Ayers?

12 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:19:13am

Talking about putting people in pools as segregating the sick

13 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:19:19am

re: #11 Vambo

what's the breaking news this time? ACORN? Bill Ayers?

Anti health care reform poll results.

14 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:19:31am

re: #11 Vambo

what's the breaking news this time? ACORN? Bill Ayers?

Nirth Certifkit.
/

15 Girth  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:19:33am

re: #11 Vambo

what's the breaking news this time? ACORN? Bill Ayers?

I believe they wanted to show a poll.

16 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:20:17am

re: #5 Cannadian Club Akbar

i missed the first thread and unable to hear the pre-lunch talks. Did they bring up fining people who don't carry insurance?

What?

17 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:20:25am

re: #12 Diego

Talking about putting people in pools as segregating the sick

Jesus. I wonder if that's the latest Frank Luntz tested gem.

18 Girth  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:20:32am

re: #12 Diego

Talking about putting people in pools as segregating the sick

It's an interesting angle to take that I've never heard before.

19 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:20:40am

re: #15 Girth

I believe they wanted to show a poll.

Was it ten feet long?

20 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:20:46am

re: #15 Girth

I believe they wanted to show a poll.

PLEASE tell me it was up Beck's ass!?!

21 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:21:00am

Oh, wait..that's a pole..

22 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:21:32am

re: #16 MandyManners

What?

Fines if you carry no insurance and don't go on the gubment insurance.

23 Vambo  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:21:48am

re: #15 Girth

I believe they wanted to show a poll.

Fox News Obamacare Poll:
Do you support Obamacare?
Yes - 2%
No - 89%
Where's the nirth certifikit - 12%
Taxed Enough Already - 33%

24 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:22:44am

re: #23 Vambo

Fox News Obamacare Poll:
Do you support Obamacare?
Yes - 2%
No - 89%
Where's the nirth certifikit - 12%
Taxed Enough Already - 33%

Arugula- What's that?

25 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:22:58am

re: #23 Vambo

Fox News Obamacare Poll:
Do you support Obamacare?
Yes - 2%
No - 89%
Where's the nirth certifikit - 12%
Taxed Enough Already - 33%

Wow look at the tits on that blonde anchor woman - 15%

26 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:23:12am

re: #23 Vambo

Fox News Obamacare Poll:
Do you support Obamacare?
Yes - 2%
No - 89%
Where's the nirth certifikit - 12%
Taxed Enough Already - 33%

Surprised there wasn't at least a

7% Sarah/Glenn would you be the mother/father of my child?

27 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:23:20am

Fox polls are online. It's only natural they'd be skewed.

28 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:24:27am

re: #27 Diego

Fox polls are online. It's only natural they'd be skewed.

I'm sure MSNBC polls aren't.
/

29 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:24:48am

re: #22 Cannadian Club Akbar

Fines if you carry no insurance and don't go on the gubment insurance.

Can't say I necessarily disagree with taking that route though. The Swiss mandate that you carry health insurance within 3 months of establishing residency. But they couple that requirement with stringent regulation of the private health insurance sector. If you can do both, it's a great idea.

If you only mandate coverage without fully locking down the insurance companies ability to jack up premiums indiscriminately... look out.

30 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:25:00am

There wasn't a "Buying More Gold 24%" line?

/

31 ShaunP  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:25:13am

re: #27 Diego

Fox polls are online. It's only natural they'd be skewed.

How about asking an honest, unbiased question? I'm surprised one of the answers wasn't "I don't support death panels"...

32 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:25:13am

re: #22 Cannadian Club Akbar

Fines if you carry no insurance and don't go on the gubment insurance.

Totalitarianism, much?

33 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:25:26am

re: #28 Cannadian Club Akbar

I'm sure MSNBC polls aren't.
/

Nobody's touting MSNBC. Tu Quo Que.

34 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:25:38am

re: #28 Cannadian Club Akbar

I'm sure MSNBC polls aren't.
/

any online poll is skewed

35 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:25:55am

re: #32 MandyManners

Mandy, calling something like that 'totalitarianism' trivializes those who have had to suffer under real totalitarian regimes.

36 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:26:32am

re: #32 MandyManners

Totalitarianism, much?

Ms. America answers the question here...

37 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:26:36am

I'm in the UK at the moment and heath care is fully covered by sales tax. I like it a lot. I've never had to wait for anything and everything is covered.

I know most of you will think this is evil, but it's not.

38 ShaunP  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:27:05am

re: #37 Diego

I'm in the UK at the moment and heath care is fully covered by sales tax. I like it a lot. I've never had to wait for anything and everything is covered.

I know most of you will think this is evil, but it's not.

Socialism!

39 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:27:25am

:¬)

40 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:27:35am

re: #32 MandyManners

Totalitarianism, much?

HAhahahahaha yeah like those totalitarian Swiss!

41 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:27:53am

re: #37 Diego

I'm in the UK at the moment and heath care is fully covered by sales tax. I like it a lot. I've never had to wait for anything and everything is covered.

I know most of you will think this is evil, but it's not.


That's exactly the kind of thing our fore fathers broke away from the UK because of!

42 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:27:56am

re: #32 MandyManners

Totalitarianism, much?

No, reality.
To have lower insurance costs everyone needs to be in the pool.

and for the most part the rest of us end up paying for those people who are not insured when they get sick or have an accident. That's the reality.

43 jaunte  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:27:58am

Do Individual Mandates Matter?

Our contention that an individual mandate is critical to achieving universal coverage rests upon three points. First, many individuals will not choose to obtain coverage under a purely voluntary system. Second, adverse selection will occur under a voluntary insurance system.Third, it is politically difficult to redirect current government spending on care for the uninsured to offset the costs associated with new broad-based reforms unless the full population is insured.


(pdf paper at link)

44 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:29:11am

re: #41 jamesfirecat

That's exactly the kind of thing our fore fathers broke away from the UK because of!


Incorrect

45 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:30:12am

re: #44 Diego

Incorrect

No. Our forefathers broke away to get away from steak and kidney pie.

And to get dentistry.

46 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:30:22am

re: #44 Diego

Incorrect

Recalibrate your sarcasm detector.

47 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:30:24am

re: #44 Diego

Incorrect

I think james was being sarcastic...

48 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:30:46am

re: #44 Diego

Incorrect

I think he was being facetious.

49 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:31:30am

re: #36 Cannadian Club Akbar

Ms. America answers the question here...

[Video]

Tap dance!

50 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:31:45am

re: #46 jamesfirecat

Recalibrate your sarcasm detector.

Sometimes a sarc tag works. Until someone gets to know you. Just sayin'.

51 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:33:27am

Man. Republicans really think that buying across state lines is the cure to what ails us.

52 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:34:47am

re: #51 recusancy

Look how well it cured the banking industry.

(Unfair shot.)

53 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:35:06am

re: #48 recusancy

I think he was being facetious.


Correct :)

54 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:35:51am

Rockefeller slapping at whoever called Sebelius an "unelected official"..

Oh lord, Blackburn is speaking now.
I think she will say something about death panels.
I do like her reading glasses.
(and I don't know why she is talking about "competition" since her side is against the public option which was deemed as too much "competition" for the insurance companies.)

55 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:36:33am

re: #51 recusancy

If a policy is acceptable to state insurance authorities in state X and costs $100 a month, but you are in state Y where the minimum coverage will cost $500, there is more than a little amount of logic to it. It adds to competition to keep the costs down, and it would allow consumers buy policies that they feel they need, instead of those that are mandated that include services that they may never want or need.

56 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:37:28am

Socialisticy fascism!

57 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:38:22am

re: #55 lawhawk

If a policy is acceptable to state insurance authorities in state X and costs $100 a month, but you are in state Y where the minimum coverage will cost $500, there is more than a little amount of logic to it. It adds to competition to keep the costs down, and it would allow consumers buy policies that they feel they need, instead of those that are mandated that include services that they may never want or need.

What's to stop them from all going to one state and buying up the legislature there ie. the credit card industry?

58 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:38:22am

Fascinistic Socialism!

59 Cannadian Club Akbar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:38:32am

Has anyone brought up raising taxes?

60 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:38:46am

re: #54 webevintage

Public option provides "competition" that has government backing and financing that enables them to undercut the private insurers. The government policy could take loses and simply raise tax revenues to cover the difference, while an insurer would be limited in how much they could raise premiums, hitting them from both ends. It's not exactly competition on a level playing field.

But if it's competition we want, why not let states open up insurance to those policies already acceptable in other states.

61 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:39:09am

re: #51 recusancy

Man. Republicans really think that buying across state lines is the cure to what ails us.

Allowing that wouldn't hurt, if you also assume some sort of federal regulation so that some minimum standards are upheld. Otherwise, you get a "race to the bottom" in which carriers would domicile their coverage in the states with the least attentive (or most pliable) regulators and then compete all over.

Plus a big part of the marketability of health insurance (as it exists now) is the breadth of the insurer's network of providers. That is a tough area for out-of-staters to compete in.

But either way, it's no silver bullet.

62 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:39:29am

Why does the President have to keep explaining mandates and exchanges to the Republicans?
Do they really not get how this works?

and honesty from the President.
Sometimes you just have to change your mind about things when faced with reality.

63 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:39:41am

I lied in my campaign. But that's.... ok

64 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:41:01am

re: #57 recusancy

What's to stop them from all going to one state and buying up the legislature there ie. the credit card industry?

Nothing. You predicted exactly what will happen. They'll pick some low population state with politicians that are cheap to influence and make it their new haven.

65 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:41:11am

re: #55 lawhawk

If a policy is acceptable to state insurance authorities in state X and costs $100 a month, but you are in state Y where the minimum coverage will cost $500, there is more than a little amount of logic to it. It adds to competition to keep the costs down, and it would allow consumers buy policies that they feel they need, instead of those that are mandated that include services that they may never want or need.

That's sort of the downside as well. Unless you regulate it then every insurance company will set up shop in whatever State allows them to sell the cheapest, least effective insurance to people who are too dumb to realize what a mistake they've made till they try to collect.

Or in Monty Python Terms....

There are probably people stupid/foolish/confused enough that they would buy the reverend's insurance plan...

66 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:41:27am

re: #62 webevintage

Why does the President have to keep explaining mandates and exchanges to the Republicans?
Do they really not get how this works?

and honesty from the President.
Sometimes you just have to change your mind about things when faced with reality.

Everybody in that room already knows how it works and the logic behind it. This is more of a show to publicly embarrass the Republicans. I think it's a very smart political move.

67 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:41:30am

re: #63 cliffster

I lied in my campaign. But that's... ok

I said one thing in my campaign but once I became President I was faced with reality and had to change my views.
My bad, I'm a human being that has to govern in the real world.

68 avanti  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:41:51am

re: #63 cliffster

I lied in my campaign. But that's... ok

Because he looked at a issue more closely and changed his mind ?

69 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:42:02am

re: #28 Cannadian Club Akbar

I'm sure MSNBC polls aren't.
/

Are they online?

70 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:42:12am

re: #60 lawhawk

Public option provides "competition" that has government backing and financing that enables them to undercut the private insurers. The government policy could take loses and simply raise tax revenues to cover the difference, while an insurer would be limited in how much they could raise premiums, hitting them from both ends. It's not exactly competition on a level playing field.

But if it's competition we want, why not let states open up insurance to those policies already acceptable in other states.

What about a government option that's started with government seed money, but if it can't find a way to break even after a certain period of time then we let it cease to exist?

71 brennant  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:42:14am

re: #67 webevintage

Ah yes Presidents never change their mind once in office...

72 torrentprime  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:42:15am

re: #60 lawhawk

Public option provides "competition" that has government backing and financing that enables them to undercut the private insurers. The government policy could take loses and simply raise tax revenues to cover the difference, while an insurer would be limited in how much they could raise premiums, hitting them from both ends. It's not exactly competition on a level playing field.

But if it's competition we want, why not let states open up insurance to those policies already acceptable in other states.

I think some of that tension can be resolved by deciding whether the primary goal here is the preservation of a low-risk market for large businesses or the improved health of the American people.

73 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:42:39am

re: #32 MandyManners

Totalitarianism, much?

Yeah, that's how Pol Pot got started.

74 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:43:00am

Who invited Biden?

75 brennant  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:43:22am

Ok... I just have a tough time listening to Biden. I want to, but just have a tough time.

76 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:43:22am

re: #74 recusancy

Who invited Biden?

Heh, I think he just showed up.

77 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:43:30am

re: #37 Diego

I'm in the UK at the moment and heath care is fully covered by sales tax. I like it a lot. I've never had to wait for anything and everything is covered.

I know most of you will think this is evil, but it's not.

I had great luck with the NHS myself.

78 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:43:42am

re: #74 recusancy

Who invited Biden?

Hoyer ;)

79 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:43:49am

re: #74 recusancy

Who invited Biden?

Joe the B comes and goes as he pleases...he doesn't have much else to do

80 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:44:09am

re: #75 brennant

Try to look on the bright side. At least it's not Pelosi speaking again.

81 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:44:25am

Yes, Biden, compare Health Care to Social Security. Let's talk about Social Security a lot.

82 Ojoe  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:44:34am

Down with both major political parties.

Pffiibbittth. ™

83 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:44:39am

re: #63 cliffster

I lied in my campaign. But that's... ok

Hush. You're not supposed to say that.

84 brennant  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:44:42am

re: #80 Killgore Trout

Sadly, I would listen to her first.

85 torrentprime  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:45:15am

re: #83 MandyManners

Hush. You're not supposed to say that.

Especially when it's not true.
;)

86 ShaunP  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:45:42am

re: #79 albusteve

Joe the B comes and goes as he pleases...he doesn't have much else to do

As it should be for every VP...

87 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:45:42am

re: #83 MandyManners

Hush. You're not supposed to say that.

Hah. Yes, it's a mass downdinging of any comment that dare be critical of Obama.

88 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:45:43am

re: #83 MandyManners

Hush. You're not supposed to say that.

Except it is not a lie.
Saying it is a lie is bullshit...

89 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:45:59am

re: #73 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, that's how Pol Pot got started.

Mighty big leap.

90 avanti  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:46:03am

re: #81 cliffster

re: #81 cliffster

Yes, Biden, compare Health Care to Social Security. Let's talk about Social Security a lot.

Just got my check, glad I'm covered.

91 subsailor68  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:46:11am

re: #70 jamesfirecat

What about a government option that's started with government seed money, but if it can't find a way to break even after a certain period of time then we let it cease to exist?

Hi jamesfirecat. Interesting idea, but historically it has proved difficult, if not impossible, to end programs on which people have become dependent or find popular - even if (as in Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid) the program runs into severe financial difficulty.

I suppose you could "sunset" the initial legislation, but it may still be political suicide to fail to extend the program when the sunset date nears.

92 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:46:28am
I lied in my campaign. But that's... ok

Read. My. Lips!

93 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:46:36am

re: #86 ShaunP

As it should be for every VP...

spread the lunacy around seems fair

94 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:46:38am

re: #90 avanti


Just got my check, glad I'm covered.

I'm glad too. Sucks we're going bankrupt though.

95 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:47:01am

re: #87 cliffster

Hah. Yes, it's a mass downdinging of any comment that dare be critical of Obama.

No, you got a downdig from me for inferring that the President lied when that is not the truth or even grounded in reality.

96 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:47:31am

re: #87 cliffster

Hah. Yes, it's a mass downdinging of any comment that dare be critical of Obama.

Watch out! You're gonna' get called a "racist" soon.

97 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:47:59am

re: #91 subsailor68

Hi jamesfirecat. Interesting idea, but historically it has proved difficult, if not impossible, to end programs on which people have become dependent or find popular - even if (as in Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid) the program runs into severe financial difficulty.

I suppose you could "sunset" the initial legislation, but it may still be political suicide to fail to extend the program when the sunset date nears.

Find some people out there willing to start a non profit competitive healthcare company.

Give them government seed money to start.

Sit back, watch and see what happens....

I'm probably over simplifying it, but still....

98 brennant  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:48:05am

re: #87 cliffster

Naw it's just cheap, that's all.

YOU LIE!

99 avanti  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:48:29am

re: #83 MandyManners

Hush. You're not supposed to say that.

So you are saying if the POTUS learns he was wrong on a issue, he should stick with the wrong decision and never admit to a mistake.

100 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:48:32am

re: #96 MandyManners

Watch out! You're gonna' get called a "racist" soon.


Glen? Glen is that you??

101 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:48:49am

re: #89 MandyManners

Mighty big leap.

Similar to the one comparing insurance mandates to totalitarianism.

102 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:48:55am

re: #99 avanti

So you are saying if the POTUS learns he was wrong on a issue, he should stick with the wrong decision and never admit to a mistake.

Yes.
/Bush.
:evilgrin:

103 Ojoe  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:49:08am

re: #96 MandyManners

It is not possible to make racist comments about Obama because he is exactly half black and half white.

104 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:49:11am

re: #99 avanti

So you are saying if the POTUS learns he was wrong on a issue, he should stick with the wrong decision and never admit to a mistake.

like the Surge?...why not?

105 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:49:34am

re: #99 avanti

So you are saying if the POTUS learns he was wrong on a issue, he should stick with the wrong decision and never admit to a mistake.

It worked for Bush...
/

106 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:50:24am

re: #103 Ojoe

It is not possible to make racist comments about Obama because he is exactly half black and half white.

I got bored pointing that out....supposedly he is whatever he says he is regardless of the facts

107 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:50:31am

Do I hear marching band music?

108 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:50:33am

re: #103 Ojoe

It is not possible to make racist comments about Obama because he is exactly half black and half white.

huh?

109 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:50:51am

re: #70 jamesfirecat

What about a government option that's started with government seed money, but if it can't find a way to break even after a certain period of time then we let it cease to exist?

The logic of a public option is that if you mandate it to perform on a break-even basis it would compete pretty fairly with private carriers. It would have minimal marketing costs (and not pay income tax) so that would be an advantage. But it would be less efficient in other ways (civil service) and be a late arrival regarding service networks and the like.

But it is fair to speculate that should it perform poorly, Congress would waive or otherwise finesse the "break-even basis" concept, and allow it to continue even if it lost money.

110 avanti  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:50:53am

re: #105 webevintage

It worked for Bush...
/

One big disagreement I had with him is he did not admit to even one.

111 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:51:16am

re: #99 avanti

So you are saying if the POTUS learns he was wrong on a issue, he should stick with the wrong decision and never admit to a mistake.

You see someone learning from their mistakes, I see someone who said whatever he needed to say to win the primary, then say whatever he needed to say to win the general, and now say whatever he needs to say to pass his pet agenda. We disagree on our perception. If you want to hate me for that, hate away...

112 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:51:16am

I appreciate that Biden spent a moment to talk about cost. Truly.

113 Ojoe  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:51:20am

re: #108 oaktree

True. Think about it.

114 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:51:21am

re: #101 drcordell

Similar to the one comparing insurance mandates to totalitarianism.

How poor am I going to have to be to get free health coverage from the government? Because the way things have gone for me during the last 5 years, it's getting down to bare minimum here.

115 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:51:32am

re: #103 Ojoe

It is not possible to make racist comments about Obama because he is exactly half black and half white.

That was racist.

116 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:51:56am

re: #107 Killgore Trout

Do I hear marching band music?

Yes. Pomp and circumstance abounds daily at the white house.

117 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:51:59am

re: #107 Killgore Trout

Do I hear marching band music?

Yes. Weird.

118 brennant  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:52:03am

re: #107 Killgore Trout

What is with that? I am digging the extra patriotism.

119 Ojoe  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:52:05am

re: #115 Walter L. Newton

Which way?

120 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:52:12am

re: #37 Diego

I'm in the UK at the moment and heath care is fully covered by sales tax. I like it a lot. I've never had to wait for anything and everything is covered.

I know most of you will think this is evil, but it's not.

And they pay you for not working!

Sweet.

121 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:52:20am

You know, I find all this harping that Obama lied rather...amusing. Where the hell have ya been, since, forever? Shocka, Breaking News, Politicians Stretch the Truth and Outright Lie at 11PM.
ROFL
XD

122 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:52:36am

Could we drop the obsession with race and racism around here today? It's not relevant to the healthcare issue.

123 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:53:08am

re: #117 Silvergirl

Ok, I was worried that it was in my head.

124 Ojoe  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:53:12am

re: #122 Killgore Trout

OK

We all can get sick.

125 torrentprime  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:53:19am

re: #96 MandyManners

Watch out! You're gonna' get called a "racist" soon.

After all, look how often it's happened on this board!

(Oh wait, that was just conservative victimology prophecying again. :) )

126 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:53:54am

re: #60 lawhawk

Public option provides "competition" that has government backing and financing that enables them to undercut the private insurers. The government policy could take loses and simply raise tax revenues to cover the difference, while an insurer would be limited in how much they could raise premiums, hitting them from both ends. It's not exactly competition on a level playing field.

But if it's competition we want, why not let states open up insurance to those policies already acceptable in other states.

The gov policy would not take losses. You would have to pay premiums just like other health insurance. If they take a loss they would adjust premiums accordingly. It would be run just like a private company only with a lower overhead, no profit taking, and a larger risk pool which would lower costs.

127 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:54:55am

re: #113 Ojoe

That was more of a boggle from me than any sort of real non-understanding.

Given the history of racial-based laws in the United States (and other countries) where your status was based upon the *purity* of your ancestry that statement came across as profoundly understated and/or ignorant.

Plus, from my viewpoint most racist statements are much more of an indicator about the character and associations of the person making the statement than the person being targeted.

128 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:55:10am

re: #114 Walter L. Newton

How poor am I going to have to be to get free health coverage from the government? Because the way things have gone for me during the last 5 years, it's getting down to bare minimum here.

totally broke (on paper)...I did it

129 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:55:27am

re: #126 recusancy

The gov policy would not take losses. You would have to pay premiums just like other health insurance. If they take a loss they would adjust premiums accordingly. It would be run just like a private company only with a lower overhead, no profit taking, and a larger risk pool which would lower costs.

What if you couldn't afford premiums, really?

130 subsailor68  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:55:50am

re: #97 jamesfirecat

Find some people out there willing to start a non profit competitive healthcare company.

Give them government seed money to start.

Sit back, watch and see what happens...

I'm probably over simplifying it, but still...

No, it's a fair observation. Again, though, if that non-profit company ran into trouble, and had a large "customer" base in place, the political pressure to continue funding it would probably be very high.

131 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:56:05am

re: #103 Ojoe

It is not possible to make racist comments about Obama because he is exactly half black and half white.

This is simply untrue. I don't need to say why, do I?

132 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:56:11am

re: #125 torrentprime

After all, look how often it's happened on this board!

(Oh wait, that was just conservative victimology prophecying again. :) )

I was called a racist because I was interested in BOs college records...shit happens

133 avanti  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:56:12am

re: #111 cliffster

You see someone learning from their mistakes, I see someone who said whatever he needed to say to win the primary, then say whatever he needed to say to win the general, and now say whatever he needs to say to pass his pet agenda. We disagree on our perception. If you want to hate me for that, hate away...

No one will hate you for a opinion, but I like the fact the POTUS listens and learns, even if that means he changes a opinion. On mandates, I feel he was convinced that you could not have a good bill without them. The healthy would not get insurance, then when they got sick, we'd pay in the emergency room. By not having the healthy in the pool, the costs would go through the room.

134 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:56:23am

re: #126 recusancy

The gov policy would not take losses. You would have to pay premiums just like other health insurance. If they take a loss they would adjust premiums accordingly. It would be run just like a private company only with a lower overhead, no profit taking, and a larger risk pool which would lower costs.

There's a leap of faith there, though. Congress has not been good about the "if they take a loss they increase premiums" thing, as premium calculations become politicized and interest groups lobby for particular outcomes.

135 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:56:46am

This is going to be interesting.

136 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:56:52am

Guberment takeover of health care!
Guberment takeover of health care!
Guberment takeover of health care!

DOOMED! DOOMED I SAY! TEH FEARS!

137 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:57:08am

Jesus Ryan, it is not a take over of health care.
You can say it as many times as you like, but that does not make it so.

138 brennant  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:57:08am

Start over!

139 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:57:09am

re: #129 Walter L. Newton

What if you couldn't afford premiums, really?

There would be subsidies for low income levels.

140 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:57:52am

re: #132 albusteve

I was called a racist because I was interested in BOs college records...shit happens

No. You called him the most mysterious president we've ever had.

141 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:58:19am

re: #139 recusancy

Which leads back into the question of who's pocket the money to pay for the subsidies is going to come out of.

142 Ojoe  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:58:31am

re: #131 Silvergirl

It is true. He's neither which equals just a human being, like everybody else. It is one of the lessons lost on many in this country.

143 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:58:34am

re: #129 Walter L. Newton

What if you couldn't afford premiums, really?

Then you get a subsidy to pay for it.

144 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:59:18am

re: #129 Walter L. Newton

What if you couldn't afford premiums, really?

I'm insured through the UNM Hospital program...they came to me and loaded me into the system and were quite happy to have me....then they got pounded for a 100k, and I was responsible for just a couple of grand, and they don't even ask for the money....sweet

145 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:59:29am

re: #4 webevintage

Oh, this is interesting.
The feed is on The Sunlight Foundation and they have a list of each speakers largest donors up as they speak.
[Link: sunlightfoundation.com...]

That's cool.

146 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:59:30am

re: #134 garhighway

There's a leap of faith there, though. Congress has not been good about the "if they take a loss they increase premiums" thing, as premium calculations become politicized and interest groups lobby for particular outcomes.

It wouldn't be micromanaged by congress. Once a bill passed an agency would be set up to administer it under the guidelines mandated in the bill. One of those guidelines would be to adjust premiums to match revenue.

147 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 11:59:38am

re: #143 webevintage

Then you get a subsidy to pay for it.

Does this subsidy pay for all or just some? In my case, I have almost none to spare.

148 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:00:16pm

re: #146 recusancy

It wouldn't be micromanaged by congress. Once a bill passed an agency would be set up to administer it under the guidelines mandated in the bill. One of those guidelines would be to adjust premiums to match revenue.

What Congress passes, Congress can amend.

149 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:00:20pm

re: #141 oaktree

Which leads back into the question of who's pocket the money to pay for the subsidies is going to come out of.

Yeah. Then I assume your also against medicare and social security. Those are subsidies too.

150 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:00:54pm

Heh.

151 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:00:54pm

re: #147 Varek Raith

Does this subsidy pay for all or just some? In my case, I have almost none to spare.

Do you have insurance now?

152 avanti  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:01:15pm

re: #132 albusteve

I was called a racist because I was interested in BOs college records...shit happens


More question have been asked about this POTUS's records of birth, kindergarten through college than any POTUS in history, but I don't know why.

153 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:01:18pm

re: #151 webevintage

Do you have insurance now?

Negative.

154 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:01:19pm

re: #140 recusancy

No. You called him the most mysterious president we've ever had.

I did...the incident I'm referring to was way before that....needless to say I was surprised, coming from a very prominent and enlightened poster...no big deal....jus sayin

155 brennant  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:01:29pm

McCain - you are shut down.

156 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:01:54pm

re: #149 recusancy

Yeah. Then I assume your also against medicare and social security. Those are subsidies too.

One can tolerate the existing entitlements and not want to create more.

157 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:01:57pm

Heh...McCain says, "Why would we cut out 800,000 people in Florida?" and the president says, "Good point." He looked disappointed to have the president validate him so quickly.

158 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:02:05pm

re: #141 oaktree

Which leads back into the question of who's pocket the money to pay for the subsidies is going to come out of.

yours....it's no mystery....in the end it all comes out of your pocket

159 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:02:25pm

Gosh, what a condescending asshole.

160 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:02:35pm

re: #149 recusancy

Not necessarily. The question is really whether or not the well can handle another bucket dipping into it without proper controls about who and what gets priority for the water and whether the rate of water removal is sustainable.

161 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:02:57pm

re: #129 Walter L. Newton

What if you couldn't afford premiums, really?

If you can't afford premiums I would imagine you can qualify for Medicaid. Where it gets tricky is when you're making too much money for Medicaid but not enough money for insurance.

162 avanti  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:03:07pm

re: #155 brennant

McCain - you are shut down.

Obama just said he had a good point. Sadly, the POTUS does not control all the deals made to pass a bill.

163 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:03:12pm

re: #159 MandyManners

Gosh, what a condescending asshole.

Who, and why?

164 torrentprime  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:03:18pm

re: #158 albusteve

yours...it's no mystery...in the end it all comes out of your pocket

Just like the expensive and inefficient ER treatment for the uninsured.

165 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:03:20pm

re: #159 MandyManners

Gosh, what a condescending asshole.

...Which one?
;)

166 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:03:21pm

re: #159 MandyManners

Gosh, what a condescending asshole.

Gosh, what an ideologue.

167 Mr. Crankypants  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:03:40pm

re: #157 darthstar

Heh...McCain says, "Why would we cut out 800,000 people in Florida?" and the president says, "Good point." He looked disappointed to have the president validate him so quickly.

I loved that! It plays more to the idea that Obama's being reasonable and the Repubs are just whining.

168 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:04:18pm

re: #152 avanti

More question have been asked about this POTUS's records of birth, kindergarten through college than any POTUS in history, but I don't know why.

it's just human nature to be curious...I don't give a shit about his birth or his race, or his age or his tastes

169 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:04:28pm

re: #126 recusancy

It would be run just like a private company only with a lower overhead, no profit taking, and a larger risk pool which would lower costs.

Lower overhead? How can you even make that supposition when any government program that provides health care, whether it's the VA, Medicare, Medicaid, or Indian Health Services, all have sprawling bureaucracies.

Private insurers have operated as not-for-profits, and yet they too would get squeezed by a public option. A larger risk pool doesn't necessarily lower costs but spreads the costs among a much larger group - for those who have no choice but to buy in (and that's part of the tax and penalty provisions in the House and Senate versions), it would be a huge hit that might be mitigated by further credits and deductions for health care expenditures if they meet threshold levels for those credits/deductions.

170 brennant  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:04:29pm

re: #162 avanti

McCain deserved it. He thought he could stick it to the President, and got shot down.

171 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:05:16pm

re: #157 darthstar

Heh...McCain says, "Why would we cut out 800,000 people in Florida?" and the president says, "Good point." He looked disappointed to have the president validate him so quickly.

deal 'em out!....everybody is in

172 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:05:19pm

re: #153 Varek Raith

Negative.

First here is an interesting tool from Kaiser that lets you play around with
each bill and see what kind of subsidy you would get.

[Link: healthreform.kff.org...]

173 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:05:21pm

Notice that the Democrats address their Republican colleagues directly, while the Republicans only address the President.

174 avanti  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:05:39pm

re: #168 albusteve

it's just human nature to be curious...I don't give a shit about his birth or his race, or his age or his tastes

For reasons unknown to me, some seem more curious about this one then in the past.

175 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:05:43pm

re: #161 drcordell

Indeed - and the costs are not uniform across the nation either- health care costs in NYC are higher than pretty much anywhere else, so it would have to be indexed locally/regionally.

176 Varek Raith  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:06:28pm

re: #172 webevintage

First here is an interesting tool from Kaiser that lets you play around with
each bill and see what kind of subsidy you would get.

[Link: healthreform.kff.org...]

Neat, thanks.
:)

177 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:06:30pm

re: #170 brennant

McCain deserved it. He thought he could stick it to the President, and got shot down.

You'd think after his getting PWN3D this morning when he was reminded that the 2008 elections are over that he'd try being more reasonable...you'd think, anyway.

178 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:06:31pm

re: #158 albusteve

yours...it's no mystery...in the end it all comes out of your pocket

There's not enough money in everyone's pocket to pay for it all. That shouldn't be a mystery but it is.

179 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:06:54pm

re: #169 lawhawk

Lower overhead? How can you even make that supposition when any government program that provides health care, whether it's the VA, Medicare, Medicaid, or Indian Health Services, all have sprawling bureaucracies.

Medicare's overhead is around 4%. Private insurance is around 18%.

It is what it is.

180 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:07:25pm

re: #164 torrentprime

Just like the expensive and inefficient ER treatment for the uninsured.

yup, but generally the treatment itself is excellent, in my experience as a RN, RT and patient....thank goodness for that, but it is unsustainable for sure

181 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:07:35pm

re: #158 albusteve

yours...it's no mystery...in the end it all comes out of your pocket

At the end of the day it's already coming out of your pocket. Since we as a country have decided that we won't let anyone die in the gutter because they cannot pay for medical care.

When someone walks into the ER deathly ill and has no insurance, they receive treatment anyway. When they cannot pay, the hospital ends up eating the cost themselves. And by "eating the cost" I mean raising their prices for paying customers (read: you).

So the question is, how do you want to pay for the healthcare you are already providing to those without insurance? Do you want to pay for their $7,000 ER bill when they come down with pneumonia and call 911? Or do you want to help subsidize their health insurance, so they can afford to pay for a $200 doctors office visit when their flu hasn't yet turned to pneumonia?

The choice is yours. But remember that either way the cost is being passed along to you.

182 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:07:55pm

re: #174 avanti

For reasons unknown to me, some seem more curious about this one then in the past.

he wanted alot of attention and he's getting it

183 avanti  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:08:00pm

re: #178 cliffster

There's not enough money in everyone's pocket to pay for it all. That shouldn't be a mystery but it is.

Some seem to forget that we pay for the uninsured now. Over a thousand a year according to the CBO.

184 subsailor68  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:08:09pm

re: #149 recusancy

Yeah. Then I assume your also against medicare and social security. Those are subsidies too.

Hi recusancy! No, I don't think most folks are against those two programs, but many have noted the financial problems we're seeing and hope that we don't end up in the same situation while trying to address a real need.

I'd have to find the link, but basically, the Social Security and Medicare trustee reports from last spring both showed huge unfunded liabilities - a combined amount of around $107 trillion dollars.

I'd hope we can find a way to solve the health care problems in America while doing our best to avoid unintended consequences (a pretty hard task I agree!).

185 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:08:45pm

re: #181 drcordell

At the end of the day it's already coming out of your pocket. Since we as a country have decided that we won't let anyone die in the gutter because they cannot pay for medical care.

When someone walks into the ER deathly ill and has no insurance, they receive treatment anyway. When they cannot pay, the hospital ends up eating the cost themselves. And by "eating the cost" I mean raising their prices for paying customers (read: you).

So the question is, how do you want to pay for the healthcare you are already providing to those without insurance? Do you want to pay for their $7,000 ER bill when they come down with pneumonia and call 911? Or do you want to help subsidize their health insurance, so they can afford to pay for a $200 doctors office visit when their flu hasn't yet turned to pneumonia?

The choice is yours. But remember that either way the cost is being passed along to you.

yes, I knew all that, thanks

186 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:08:46pm

re: #180 albusteve

yup, but generally the treatment itself is excellent, in my experience as a RN, RT and patient...thank goodness for that, but it is unsustainable for sure

Not only that, but it does not cover on-going care. Only emergency conditions, no primary care. No meds, etc.

187 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:08:48pm

re: #169 lawhawk

Lower overhead? How can you even make that supposition when any government program that provides health care, whether it's the VA, Medicare, Medicaid, or Indian Health Services, all have sprawling bureaucracies.

Private insurers have operated as not-for-profits, and yet they too would get squeezed by a public option. A larger risk pool doesn't necessarily lower costs but spreads the costs among a much larger group - for those who have no choice but to buy in (and that's part of the tax and penalty provisions in the House and Senate versions), it would be a huge hit that might be mitigated by further credits and deductions for health care expenditures if they meet threshold levels for those credits/deductions.

It could be that a public option ends up acting as the substandard carrier, taking in all of the high-risk, high cost enrollees. Certainly, that is how the private carriers would want it to happen: they would want to cherry-pick the applicant pool to achieve that. preventing that behavior (which the bill would presumably outlaw) would be a regulatory challenge.

188 Charles Johnson  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:08:50pm

Paul Ryan did indeed say he didn't trust the CBO's projections. Then he tried to weasel out of it by saying he questioned "the reality of it."

Total weasel word maneuver.

189 Girth  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:08:59pm

re: #177 darthstar

You'd think after his getting PWN3D this morning when he was reminded that the 2008 elections are over that he'd try being more reasonable...you'd think, anyway.

He's a far cry from the man I voted for in the 2000 primary. Makes me a little sad.

190 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:09:06pm

re: #178 cliffster

There's not enough money in everyone's pocket to pay for it all. That shouldn't be a mystery but it is.

See #181

191 torrentprime  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:09:21pm

re: #178 cliffster

There's not enough money in everyone's pocket to pay for it all. That shouldn't be a mystery but it is.

If by "all" you mean the current system, you're right. Good thing the proposals from the Dems reduce the federal deficit. Didn't I hear somewhere the Republicans are in favor of that sort of thing?

192 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:09:38pm

re: #185 albusteve

yes, I knew all that, thanks

Excellent. But there are still plenty of people like Cliffster who haven't wrapped their heads around the concept yet.

193 torrentprime  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:09:55pm

re: #182 albusteve

he wanted alot of attention and he's getting it

So, in other words, "she was asking for it."

194 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:09:57pm

re: #188 Charles

Paul Ryan did indeed say he didn't trust the CBO's projections. Then he tried to weasel out of it by saying he questioned "the reality of it."

Total weasel word maneuver.

Becerra did well in calling him out on it. "You've used the CBO repeatedly in the past..."

195 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:10:31pm

re: #178 cliffster

There's not enough money in everyone's pocket to pay for it all. That shouldn't be a mystery but it is.

print more

196 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:10:56pm

re: #189 Girth

He's a far cry from the man I voted for in the 2000 primary. Makes me a little sad.

I liked McCain in 2000. I wanted the election to be between him and Gore. I still would have voted for Gore (even with Lieberman as his running mate), but the McCain 2000 was a much better version than McCain 2008-10

197 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:11:31pm

re: #196 darthstar

I liked McCain in 2000. I wanted the election to be between him and Gore. I still would have voted for Gore (even with Lieberman as his running mate), but the McCain 2000 was a much better version than McCain 2008-10

I think he was really changed by what happened to him in the South Carolina primary.

198 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:11:59pm

re: #192 drcordell

Excellent. But there are still plenty of people like Cliffster who haven't wrapped their heads around the concept yet.

Trust me, you have no idea.

199 abbyadams  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:12:39pm

re: #196 darthstar

I liked McCain enough to look at him in early 2008, when we weren't sure if it was going to be BO or HRC. Once he picked his VP choice, though...fffft. That was it for me.

200 brennant  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:13:25pm

re: #199 abbyadams

Me too.

201 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:13:37pm

re: #197 drcordell

I think he was really changed by what happened to him in the South Carolina primary.

Is it in bad taste if I make a joke comparing the shell shock a solider might suffer in Vietnam to that South Carolina Primary?

202 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:13:42pm

re: #187 garhighway

It could be that a public option ends up acting as the substandard carrier, taking in all of the high-risk, high cost enrollees. Certainly, that is how the private carriers would want it to happen: they would want to cherry-pick the applicant pool to achieve that. preventing that behavior (which the bill would presumably outlaw) would be a regulatory challenge.

That's exactly what has happened now with our current system. The highest risk groups to insure are the elderly and the extremely poor. Guess who insures them? That's right, the Government. The private insurance market is already operating with the benefit of a pool that has the riskiest people removed. And yet they still use rescission and claim denials to avoid paying out claims and pad their bottom line.

203 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:14:05pm

Grassley's talking...who are his donors?

Sen Chuck Grassley (R-IA)
Top Industry Donors 2010
Industry Total Indivs. PACS
Health Professionals $314166 $86600 $227566
Insurance $242798 $44250 $198548
Pharmaceuticals/Health Products $186250 $70050 $116200
Lobbyists $168946 $158446 $10500
Hospitals/Nursing Homes $163937 $70137 $93800

204 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:14:09pm

re: #193 torrentprime

So, in other words, "she was asking for it."

I think he has handled the scrutiny well, I mean he doesn't have to address lunatics, but it's a quirky situation...but again I care more about policy

205 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:14:24pm

Grassley lies like no one I know

206 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:14:40pm

Grassley:
I don't care what has been said about high risk pools or business organization pools, I'm gonna keep with my talking points by golly!

207 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:14:56pm

Well, the way my financial life has slowly eroded over the last 5 years, if this bill does pass, I'm fixing to squeeze every penny I can out of it in regards to assuring my health.

And I won't give a shit how much it costs anyone.

208 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:15:01pm

Grassley, just say NO WAY and save us the time.

209 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:16:09pm

re: #198 cliffster

Trust me, you have no idea.

Not really sure what that means? I guess my question for you is, what do you propose?

It seems you don't think you should be paying for healthcare for those who can't afford it. Would you support making it legal for hospitals to deny care for patients that lack the ability to pay? Because unless you are willing to do that, then simply stating "we don't have enough money to pay for everyone's healthcare" is a completely un-serious argument.

210 torrentprime  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:17:36pm

re: #209 drcordell

Not really sure what that means? I guess my question for you is, what do you propose?

I can't speak for cliffster, but I took it as an acknowledgment that we're all having to make some massive mental shifts as we go through this debate.

211 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:17:42pm

re: #207 Walter L. Newton

Well, the way my financial life has slowly eroded over the last 5 years, if this bill does pass, I'm fixing to squeeze every penny I can out of it in regards to assuring my health.

And I won't give a shit how much it costs anyone.

you have no choice bro...you will do what you have to do and I for one will back you up...it's the principle as well, you give so much and when you need it back you deserve it....pretty simple imo

212 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:17:49pm
Grassley: for the first time in 200 years the United States government is going to tell people they have to buy something!

You are so totally full of shit it's no wonder you grew up on a farm..

213 RogueOne  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:17:51pm

re: #203 darthstar

Grassley's talking...who are his donors?

Sen Chuck Grassley (R-IA)
Top Industry Donors 2010
Industry Total Indivs. PACS
Health Professionals $314166 $86600 $227566
Insurance $242798 $44250 $198548
Pharmaceuticals/Health Products $186250 $70050 $116200
Lobbyists $168946 $158446 $10500
Hospitals/Nursing Homes $163937 $70137 $93800

You might want to be careful when you start throwing "money-mud" around.
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]


Health care special-interest groups may not have a direct seat at the table at Thursday's bipartisan health care reform summit, but they will hardly be unrepresented. A government watchdog organization points out that since 2005, health care interests have contributed nearly $28 million in campaign donations to the 21 members of the House and Senate invited to attend, and the summit's host, President Obama, received over $18.6 million from them during the 2008 campaign.

In addition, you might want to look at who was throwing money around like mad trying to get Coakley elected over brown. Just saying.


BTW, I'm blaming you for this POS droid I picked up.//

214 jamesfirecat  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:17:59pm

re: #209 drcordell

Not really sure what that means? I guess my question for you is, what do you propose?

It seems you don't think you should be paying for healthcare for those who can't afford it. Would you support making it legal for hospitals to deny care for patients that lack the ability to pay? Because unless you are willing to do that, then simply stating "we don't have enough money to pay for everyone's healthcare" is a completely un-serious argument.

We understand that you've got some nasty internal bleeding, but we really do need to make sure you'll be able to pay to cover it before we can patch you up....

Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow after all?

215 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:18:01pm

re: #207 Walter L. Newton

Well, the way my financial life has slowly eroded over the last 5 years, if this bill does pass, I'm fixing to squeeze every penny I can out of it in regards to assuring my health.

And I won't give a shit how much it costs anyone.

It'll cost us a lot less to take care of your ass than it would if this bill didn't pass and you got sick.

216 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:18:13pm

Yes, Mr President, its true that entitlements will not be managed, and it's also true that we're in big trouble.

217 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:19:21pm

re: #215 darthstar

It'll cost us a lot less to take care of your ass than it would if this bill didn't pass and you got sick.

You don't worry about my ass... ok? Take care of your own fucking ass.

218 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:19:23pm

re: #215 darthstar

re: #207 Walter L. Newton

And I won't give a shit how much it costs anyone.


It'll cost us a lot less to take care of your ass than it would if this bill didn't pass and you got sick.

BINGO!

219 oldegeezr  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:19:42pm

How sweet it is…

el Rushbo, the large titular leader of the GOP, capitulated today...

“…that’s where this is going, reconciliation Monday!”

Thank you Democrats, thank you Harry Reid!
Hoooaah...olde soldier sends!

220 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:19:56pm

re: #188 Charles

Paul Ryan did indeed say he didn't trust the CBO's projections. Then he tried to weasel out of it by saying he questioned "the reality of it."

Total weasel word maneuver.

"Audit the CBO." --Ron Paul

221 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:20:02pm

re: #213 RogueOne

In addition, you might want to look at who was throwing money around like mad trying to get Coakley elected over brown. Just saying.

BTW, I'm blaming you for this POS droid I picked up.//

Cool! You got the Droid! Just give it a couple of days...it'll grow on you.

Yes, President Obama accepted money too. But at least he's working toward improving Health Care for all Americans. The Republicans at the table are merely trying to protect the status quo.

222 RogueOne  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:20:08pm

The CBO numbers are crap. The savings are based on the reduction in payments to Doctors for medicare/medicaid when we all know those reductions are never going to happen.

223 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:20:12pm

re: #217 Walter L. Newton

You don't worry about my ass... ok? Take care of your own fucking ass.

Aye? Independently wealthy then?

224 Vambo  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:20:26pm

re: #87 cliffster

Hah. Yes, it's a mass downdinging of any comment that dare be critical of Obama.

if that's what you want, here it is!

225 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:20:50pm

re: #190 drcordell

See #181

Stop that, you are harshing the narrative...
/

226 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:20:54pm

re: #223 Diego

Aye? Independently wealthy then?

Before you shoot off your mouth, how about reading what I wrote up thread.

227 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:20:54pm

re: #213 RogueOne

In addition, you might want to look at who was throwing money around like mad trying to get Coakley elected over brown. Just saying.

BTW, I'm blaming you for this POS droid I picked up.//

It's true Obama did take $18 million from the healthcare industry. But none of it was from PAC's. And that $18 million as a percentage of what he received from individual small donors is relatively low compared to the Honorable Senator Grassley.

228 RogueOne  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:21:02pm

re: #221 darthstar

Cool! You got the Droid! Just give it a couple of days...it'll grow on you.

Yes, President Obama accepted money too. But at least he's working toward improving Health Care for all Americans. The Republicans at the table are merely trying to protect the status quo.

You could say that, or you could say he's trying to give them their $20 million dollars worth./

229 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:21:06pm

re: #217 Walter L. Newton

You don't worry about my ass... ok? Take care of your own fucking ass.

You're so cute when you're feisty. Keep it up.

230 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:21:09pm

re: #224 Vambo

if that's what you want, here it is!

Martyr cookies all around, on me!

231 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:21:21pm

re: #209 drcordell

Not really sure what that means?

you frequently imply that my intellect falls short of your expectation. Fine by me, I find it comical.

232 RogueOne  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:22:17pm

re: #227 drcordell

I always ask myself what's worse, ODS sufferers or apologists. I'm having a hard time deciding.

233 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:22:23pm

re: #229 darthstar

You're so cute when you're feisty. Keep it up.

And stop up dinging me when I am trying to insult you.

234 subsailor68  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:22:44pm

CBO scoring can be a good indicator, but we do need to remember that CBO can only score that which has been presented to it. For example, if a health reform proposal is presented for costing, but Medicare reimbursement to doc's is not in that proposal, but in a different piece of legislation, the numbers for the health reform proposal may look fine, but only because the reimbursement dollars were not included in the proposal submitted for costing.

235 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:23:00pm

re: #231 cliffster

you frequently imply that my intellect falls short of your expectation. Fine by me, I find it comical.

Where did I imply that? If anything I was implying that your comment was over my head.

What I will imply is that you are completely skirting the substance of the issue to engage in a petty tit-for-tat. Do you think that it should be legal for hospitals to deny care for those who can't afford it? And if not, then how should we pay for the treatment of those who we can't turn away because they are too poor to pay?

236 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:23:14pm

re: #233 Walter L. Newton

And stop up dinging me when I am trying to insult you.

Indeed. I pioneered that technique. It's mine.

237 sagehen  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:23:29pm

re: #60 lawhawk

Public option provides "competition" that has government backing and financing that enables them to undercut the private insurers. The government policy could take loses and simply raise tax revenues to cover the difference, while an insurer would be limited in how much they could raise premiums, hitting them from both ends. It's not exactly competition on a level playing field.

That would be awful.

Just like all those partially-taxpayer-subsidized public universities have driven the Ivy League out of the business. And ever since NYC got those tax-assisted subways, nobody drives their own cars or uses cabs anymore.

238 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:23:31pm

re: #233 Walter L. Newton

And stop up dinging me when I am trying to insult you.


Oops I did it again!

239 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:23:38pm

re: #202 drcordell

That's exactly what has happened now with our current system. The highest risk groups to insure are the elderly and the extremely poor. Guess who insures them? That's right, the Government. The private insurance market is already operating with the benefit of a pool that has the riskiest people removed. And yet they still use rescission and claim denials to avoid paying out claims and pad their bottom line.

I agree. I don't have the answer. But I think the public option has problems that are difficult to fix.

240 SpaceJesus  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:23:41pm

Utah is trying to make it so that women can be charged with homicide if they have a miscarriage and it appears to have been an intentional miscarriage (ie not wearing a seatbelt, having an abusive partner, or "falling down the stairs").

hello darkages

[Link: www.sltrib.com...]

241 Yashmak  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:24:07pm

re: #10 jamesfirecat

We'd like to show you more but frankly it would interfere with the preconceived narrative we're trying to uphold!

Of course, MSNBC has also cut away to other programming (Olympics).

242 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:24:11pm

there is more than enough wasted tax money gone up in smoke via the federal govt to pay for everybodys medical care...the sprawling govt doesn't even have a clue...they just continue to tax...I would bet that scores or even hundreds of billions just go down the drain through stupidity or over indulgence....the feds don't fool me...the govt is WAY to big and cumbersome and we continue to feed the beast because it's the law...and they wrote the law

243 RogueOne  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:24:22pm

re: #221 darthstar

Cool! You got the Droid! Just give it a couple of days...it'll grow on you.

It's taken all day to get my email and contacts set up and I'm still not sure my email is actually working correctly. The droid only pushes gmail so I'm tempted to try forwarding all my corporate email to my gmail acct to see if it comes through any faster.

244 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:24:55pm

Sign of the end times: SpaceJesus is only 54 dings away from positive karma.

245 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:25:17pm

re: #244 Cato the Elder

lol

246 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:25:49pm

re: #222 RogueOne

The CBO numbers are crap. The savings are based on the reduction in payments to Doctors for medicare/medicaid when we all know those reductions are never going to happen.

the CBO works for congress...they can say or make up whatever they want....they are the feds

247 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:26:01pm

Boehner:
Thank you Mr. president for addressing my table concerns.
And look, my tan is awesome and so orange.

248 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:26:19pm

re: #246 albusteve

the CBO works for congress...they can say or make up whatever they want...they are the feds

"Audit the feds." --Ron Paul

249 RogueOne  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:26:23pm

re: #240 SpaceJesus

Utah is trying to make it so that women can be charged with homicide if they have a miscarriage and it appears to have been an intentional miscarriage (ie not wearing a seatbelt, having an abusive partner, or "falling down the stairs").

hello darkages

[Link: www.sltrib.com...]

Where have you been? Utah isn't the only place, we talked about this last week about a woman who was arrested in Iowa.

250 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:26:25pm

Boehner's up...he's definitely rehearsed for the cameras. "Thank you, thank you Mr. President. I'm listening. I listen a lot. Americans want us to scrap this bill."
Boehner's so full of shit. Opening with a positive and then lying about the number of calls he's received to kill the bill. His office has had so many people call saying that they want HCR that they actually hang up on people now.

251 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:26:43pm

re: #246 albusteve

the CBO works for congress...they can say or make up whatever they want...they are the feds

Mr Fox, could you please look over this henhouse?

252 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:27:03pm

re: #232 RogueOne

I always ask myself what's worse, ODS sufferers or apologists. I'm having a hard time deciding.

So I'm an apologist now for pointing out facts? What would you have Obama do... reject donations from anyone who works in the healthcare industry? He outright rejected corporate PAC cash. What else can he do?

I'll rip on Obama for plenty of reasons. His handling of Afghanistan, continuation of Bush spying policies, failure to close Gitmo, his absurd insistence on "bipartisanship", his abandonment of the public option. The list goes on. But taking money from individual donors and rejecting corporate PAC cash isn't one of them.

253 RogueOne  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:27:12pm

re: #250 darthstar

Nice tan too.

254 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:27:35pm

re: #211 albusteve

you have no choice bro...you will do what you have to do and I for one will back you up...it's the principle as well, you give so much and when you need it back you deserve it...pretty simple imo

I don't think some people here understand what I am saying. I'm not asking for help. I'm not thanking anyone for help. If my financial situation keeps heading for the tank like it has been for the last 5 years, I'm going to...

Take everything I can from the government, which means from you, from every other citizen, and I won't give a damn what it cost, who it costs or if anyone can afford it.

Once I stoop to the level of the public dole, I'm going full fledge hanging my hat on the public handout. The left wants to give it to me, the left wants me to have it, they are so worried about me, well, I'm going to make them so fucking happy that they will be lining up at my door to keep me satisfied.

Happy days are here again.

255 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:27:47pm

re: #248 Cato the Elder

"Audit the feds." --Ron Paul

audit the hell out of everyone!...audit mania!

256 Yashmak  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:28:04pm

re: #250 darthstar

Opening with a positive and then lying about the number of calls he's received to kill the bill. His office has had so many people call saying that they want HCR that they actually hang up on people now.

How can you know how many calls he's had either way?

257 SpaceJesus  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:28:06pm

re: #244 Cato the Elder

Sign of the end times: SpaceJesus is only 54 dings away from positive karma.


as long as i can play the "take away all the rights of white southerners" comedy card, i think i can stay in the red.

258 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:28:27pm

re: #253 RogueOne

Nice tan too.

He's fucking orange! He looks like DailyKos wallpaper.

Oh, and his biggest donor (number dump coming)...Insurance:

Rep John Boehner (R-OH)
Top Career Industry Donors
Industry Total
Insurance $939276
Securities & Investment $717736
Misc Manufacturing & Distributing $657116
Commercial Banks $527319
Health Professionals $508886
Retired $484184
Real Estate $463648
Electric Utilities $418530
Lawyers/Law Firms $412841
Pharmaceuticals/Health Products $385480

259 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:28:49pm

re: #256 Yashmak

How can you know how many calls he's had either way?

I've called his office.

260 SpaceJesus  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:28:54pm

re: #249 RogueOne

Where have you been? Utah isn't the only place, we talked about this last week about a woman who was arrested in Iowa.

the difference is that this law applies to women throughout their entire pregnancy. the iowa one only applied to third trimesters i believe

261 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:29:13pm
Umpa Lumpa: it's going to drive up the cost of employment!


What a dumbass..

And now on to abortions..

262 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:29:14pm

re: #247 webevintage

Boehner:
Thank you Mr. president for addressing my table concerns.
And look, my tan is awesome and so orange.

shoot that was supposed to say "Not so orange"...

OH NOEZ, HEALTH CARE REFORM IZ DANGEROUS.
AN TAX CUTS, ALWAYS TAX CUTS.
OH NOEZ U R MAKIN ME SAD WIF MANDATEZ AN EXCHANGEZ.

abortion and I bet deathpanel camps are next.

No John, you can stop now.

263 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:29:23pm

re: #255 albusteve

audit the hell out of everyone!...audit mania!

Be careful what you wish for, Steve. I expect to find you not in jail when I come to take refuge at the bunkhouse.

264 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:29:27pm

re: #255 albusteve

audit the hell out of everyone!...audit mania!

Except me...bastards audited me and I've still got a couple grand to pay to the state of California.

265 Yashmak  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:30:01pm

re: #259 darthstar

I've called his office.

So you know which way one call leaned.

266 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:30:11pm

re: #254 Walter L. Newton

Yes. We are "so worried about you" that we don't think you deserve to die because you can't afford exorbitantly priced healthcare. Why is this offensive to you?

267 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:30:15pm

re: #259 darthstar

I've called his office.

well, that's one call

268 Girth  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:30:18pm

You know for awhile there it almost seemed like some reasonable discussion was going on, then Boehner opens his mouth.

269 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:30:31pm

President Obama is being very patient with Boehner.

270 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:30:48pm

Indeed he is. he should slap his ass down.

271 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:30:48pm

Why the hell can't we just do what I want?
Seriously Mr. President.
Why you always harshing my buzz?

272 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:30:52pm

re: #253 RogueOne

Nice tan too.

Tanist.

What does his tan matter?

273 RogueOne  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:31:21pm

re: #252 drcordell

So I'm an apologist now for pointing out facts? What would you have Obama do... reject donations from anyone who works in the healthcare industry? He outright rejected corporate PAC cash. What else can he do?

I'll rip on Obama for plenty of reasons. His handling of Afghanistan, continuation of Bush spying policies, failure to close Gitmo, his absurd insistence on "bipartisanship", his abandonment of the public option. The list goes on. But taking money from individual donors and rejecting corporate PAC cash isn't one of them.

If you want to believe that $20 mill (3x the amount given to McCain) came from ma and pa kettle, that's fine.

274 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:31:40pm

re: #268 Girth

You know for awhile there it almost seemed like some reasonable discussion was going on, then Boehner opens his mouth.

Ooompa-loompa-doompa-di-doo

275 Yashmak  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:31:43pm

re: #270 Diego

Indeed he is. he should slap his ass down.

Not if he truly wants this to be a bipartisan process. His patience is becoming.

276 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:31:48pm

re: #270 Diego

Indeed he is. he should slap his ass down.

Unlike McCain, Boehner would start crying if President Obama gave him the response he deserved. McCain at least takes a beating quietly.

277 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:31:55pm

re: #240 SpaceJesus

Utah is trying to make it so that women can be charged with homicide if they have a miscarriage and it appears to have been an intentional miscarriage (ie not wearing a seatbelt, having an abusive partner, or "falling down the stairs").

hello darkages

[Link: www.sltrib.com...]

Or skiing, cycling, hiking, cleaning out the rain gutters...

278 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:32:14pm

re: #276 darthstar

That wasn't meant, by the way, as an attack on McCain re: his time as a POW.

279 SpaceJesus  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:32:24pm

when i did my internship in the senate right after undergrad, i would have to answer calls and questions from constituents all the time, and would just make stuff up as answers.

280 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:32:50pm

re: #270 Diego

Indeed he is. he should slap his ass down.

He did. Only very kindly. None of his points got adressed, and the point Obama made was that this was rightfully so.

281 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:33:00pm

re: #277 wrenchwench

re: #240 SpaceJesus


Utah is trying to make it so that women can be charged with homicide if they have a miscarriage and it appears to have been an intentional miscarriage (ie not wearing a seatbelt, having an abusive partner, or "falling down the stairs").

hello darkages

[Link: www.sltrib.com...]


Or skiing, cycling, hiking, cleaning out the rain gutters...

..having sex. After all, can't say they were doing it to get pregnant and they believe that is the ONLY reason to have sex..

282 sagehen  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:33:07pm

re: #114 Walter L. Newton

How poor am I going to have to be to get free health coverage from the government? Because the way things have gone for me during the last 5 years, it's getting down to bare minimum here.

To be totally gov't-subsidized, you can earn up to double the poverty line. It's a sliding scale from there, with partial subsidies up to 4x the poverty line.

283 RogueOne  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:33:08pm

re: #260 SpaceJesus

the difference is that this law applies to women throughout their entire pregnancy. the iowa one only applied to third trimesters i believe

It's for the children. What do you have against kids?

284 Yashmak  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:33:09pm

re: #279 SpaceJesus

when i did my internship in the senate right after undergrad, i would have to answer calls and questions from constituents all the time, and would just make stuff up as answers.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that happens alot.

285 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:33:41pm

re: #272 Silvergirl

Tanist.

What does his tan matter?

He's the first tanist of his sept and always up to debt. (With apologies to James Joyce.)

286 SpaceJesus  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:33:43pm

re: #277 wrenchwench

Or skiing, cycling, hiking, cleaning out the rain gutters...

the thought of being imprisoned (maybe for life) after what must be the most traumatic experience of your life makes me sick.

287 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:33:52pm

re: #272 Silvergirl

Tanist.

What does his tan matter?

If it wasn't for Boehner, the GOP would have no people of color in their ranks.
/

288 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:33:58pm

re: #279 SpaceJesus

when i did my internship in the senate right after undergrad, i would have to answer calls and questions from constituents all the time, and would just make stuff up as answers.

hahaha!....bong in one hand, phone in the other, feet up

289 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:34:21pm

re: #273 RogueOne

If you want to believe that $20 mill (3x the amount given to McCain) came from ma and pa kettle, that's fine.

Look it up yourself. Here are the records right here.

[Link: www.opensecrets.org...]

Individual contributions $656,357,572 88%
PAC contributions $1,830 0%
Candidate self-financing $0 0%
Federal Funds $0 0%
Other $88,626,223 12%

290 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:34:42pm

re: #283 RogueOne

It's for the children. What do you have against kids?

Oh NOES think of the CHILDREN!

291 RogueOne  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:34:47pm

A "Fiscal Responsibility commission".... O.M.G., it's waaay to late for that now.

292 Girth  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:34:59pm

re: #287 darthstar

If it wasn't for Boehner, the GOP would have no people of color in their ranks.
/

Ouch. That needed a rimshot instead of a sarc tag.

293 SpaceJesus  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:35:00pm

re: #284 Yashmak

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that happens alot.

all the interns do it. my favorite thing to do was to make up a new definition for "cloture" every time someone would ask (this happens about 80 times a day).

294 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:35:38pm

Utah should make it where masturbating is a crime too then. They've made everything else illegal.

295 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:35:54pm

re: #293 SpaceJesus

all the interns do it. my favorite thing to do was to make up a new definition for "cloture" every time someone would ask (this happens about 80 times a day).

so basically it is a waste of time calling your congress critters?

296 SpaceJesus  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:35:57pm

re: #288 albusteve

hahaha!...bong in one hand, phone in the other, feet up


haha, naw. not in domenici's office. i was just on facebook or playing suduko.

297 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:36:25pm

re: #293 SpaceJesus

all the interns do it. my favorite thing to do was to make up a new definition for "cloture" every time someone would ask (this happens about 80 times a day).

I always thought it was a blockage in one of the congressional WCs.

298 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:36:30pm

re: #266 drcordell

Yes. We are "so worried about you" that we don't think you deserve to die because you can't afford exorbitantly priced healthcare. Why is this offensive to you?

Because I have taken care of myself as fully as I could for 57 years. And now, that may not be as possible. It's a really good feeling to be able to rely on yourself for all your needs. It's a really good feeling to know that you're self worth has enable yourself to work, feed yourself, take care of others you love, that you are a desired part of society, not a burden. It's a really good feeling to be able to voluntarily help others in need, without any rules or stipulations... selfless giving, not connected to politics or your or someone's self interest of advancement. Those thing are a really good feeling.

Maybe you should try it sometime? I doubt you would understand though.

299 sngnsgt  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:36:36pm

re: #292 Girth

Ouch. That needed a rimshot instead of a sarc tag.

One rimshot, coming up

300 Stonemason  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:36:38pm

re: #266 drcordell

Yes. We are "so worried about you" that we don't think you deserve to die because you can't afford exorbitantly priced healthcare. Why is this offensive to you?

I can't speak for Walter, but it bothers me that people can do what ever the heck they want to their health and expect someone else to pick up the tab. I am being told that my health-care contribution is going from $40 to $55 per week because of the usage n our plan. Yes, my premiums are going up because the pool I am in (a large group) includes many self inflicted pre-existing conditions. My family exercises and eats pretty good, but, we pay more. I still can not figure out how this bill will save me money.

and back to the original question...the let is not 'worried', the left wants to control. This is historical on the left.

301 SpaceJesus  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:36:48pm

re: #295 webevintage

so basically it is a waste of time calling your congress critters?

yes. you're only going to be talking to interns who don't know anything.

email a staffer, like an LA or LC and you might get something.

302 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:37:05pm

I like when they talk about the cost. "If you can't measure it, you can't manage it" he just said.

It's more about talking a good game, and it is time to abandon talking points and is something to be solved together.

303 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:37:22pm

re: #296 SpaceJesus

haha, naw. not in domenici's office. i was just on facebook or playing suduko.

You're young, then. Facebook? That means you worked for Domenici between 2006 and today.

304 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:37:37pm

re: #300 Stonemason

I can't speak for Walter, but it bothers me that people can do what ever the heck they want to their health and expect someone else to pick up the tab. I am being told that my health-care contribution is going from $40 to $55 per week because of the usage n our plan. Yes, my premiums are going up because the pool I am in (a large group) includes many self inflicted pre-existing conditions. My family exercises and eats pretty good, but, we pay more. I still can not figure out how this bill will save me money.

and back to the original question...the let is not 'worried', the left wants to control. This is historical on the left.

See my... re: #298 Walter L. Newton... it's something that he cannot ever understand.

305 SpaceJesus  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:37:44pm

re: #294 Diego

Utah should make it where masturbating is a crime too then. They've made everything else illegal.

every sperm is sacred

306 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:38:28pm

See, now you've gone and done it, you have offended John McCain.

This starting over thing is BS because the Republicans know (and won't admit) that if the Dems get a HC bill past the American public will end up supporting them.
They are scared to death of a bill passing.

307 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:38:37pm

re: #305 SpaceJesus

They can't realistically do that though: they're all wankers

308 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:38:41pm

C'mon, people only 39 dings to put SpaceJesus in the black. Yes we can!

309 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:38:45pm

I thought the Texas tort reform was debunked?

310 SpaceJesus  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:38:53pm

re: #303 darthstar

You're young, then. Facebook? That means you worked for Domenici between 2006 and today.

mhmm, me and old domenici, or "p diddy" as all us interns called him.

311 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:39:04pm

re: #242 albusteve

there is more than enough wasted tax money gone up in smoke via the federal govt to pay for everybodys medical care...the sprawling govt doesn't even have a clue...they just continue to tax...I would bet that scores or even hundreds of billions just go down the drain through stupidity or over indulgence...the feds don't fool me...the govt is WAY to big and cumbersome and we continue to feed the beast because it's the law...and they wrote the law

You know a politician has run out of ideas when he says to pay for something with savings generated by the reduction of waste, fraud and abuse. It's another way of saying that he has no idea where to get the money but wants to spend anyway.

312 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:39:42pm

re: #298 Walter L. Newton

Because I have taken care of myself as fully as I could for 57 years. And now, that may not be as possible. It's a really good feeling to be able to rely on yourself for all your needs. It's a really good feeling to know that you're self worth has enable yourself to work, feed yourself, take care of others you love, that you are a desired part of society, not a burden. It's a really good feeling to be able to voluntarily help others in need, without any rules or stipulations... selfless giving, not connected to politics or your or someone's self interest of advancement. Those thing are a really good feeling.

Maybe you should try it sometime? I doubt you would understand though.

My job pays me excellently. With full benefits. I am a worker whose taxes are paying for the benefits that you may soon take advantage of. And you know what? Despite your bad attitude about it, I don't have any problem with it.

We live in the richest nation on earth. We have more than enough money to ensure that nobody dies in the street because they lack the ability to pay for their healthcare. I simply cannot see how this concept is so utterly offensive to you.

313 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:39:52pm

Which states did mcCain cite as examples of tort reform?
If it's Texas and California he's probably going to look stupid.

314 Cato the Elder  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:40:00pm

re: #311 garhighway

You know a politician has run out of ideas when he says to pay for something with savings generated by the reduction of waste, fraud and abuse. It's another way of saying that he has no idea where to get the money but wants to spend anyway.

So you're against reducing waste, fraud and abuse? Or you think it can't be done?

315 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:40:08pm

Cali and Texas

316 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:40:13pm

re: #313 Killgore Trout

Which states did mcCain cite as examples of tort reform?
If it's Texas and California he's probably going to look stupid.

That's who he used. TX and CA.

317 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:40:15pm

re: #298 Walter L. Newton

Because I have taken care of myself as fully as I could for 57 years. And now, that may not be as possible. It's a really good feeling to be able to rely on yourself for all your needs. It's a really good feeling to know that you're self worth has enable yourself to work, feed yourself, take care of others you love, that you are a desired part of society, not a burden. It's a really good feeling to be able to voluntarily help others in need, without any rules or stipulations... selfless giving, not connected to politics or your or someone's self interest of advancement. Those thing are a really good feeling.

Maybe you should try it sometime? I doubt you would understand though.

Garhighway... evidently you have a real low opinion of yourself if you could in anyway down ding my comment above.

318 Stonemason  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:40:17pm

re: #293 SpaceJesus

Wow...just wow.

I can't even...

Wow...

319 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:40:21pm

He always looks stupid

320 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:40:42pm

McCain's talking out his ass. Never before has reconciliation been used on an issue of this much importance. Uh, bullshit, John.

321 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:40:52pm

re: #315 Diego

Cali and Texas

Lol. I'm pretty sure that's been debunked. CA had 30% increases just last week.

322 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:41:15pm

Indeed

323 Izzyboy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:41:16pm

re: #319 Diego

He always looks stupid

But he won't talk about Cali because Texans hate them :p

324 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:42:20pm

re: #312 drcordell

My job pays me excellently. With full benefits. I am a worker whose taxes are paying for the benefits that you may soon take advantage of. And you know what? Despite your bad attitude about it, I don't have any problem with it.

We live in the richest nation on earth. We have more than enough money to ensure that nobody dies in the street because they lack the ability to pay for their healthcare. I simply cannot see how this concept is so utterly offensive to you.

You proved my point. I stated above that you couldn't understand, so don't try.

325 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:42:21pm

re: #304 Walter L. Newton

See my... re: #298 Walter L. Newton... it's something that he cannot ever understand.

With all due respect, how dare you?

326 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:42:48pm

They "stole" "Arizona's" water..

327 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:43:02pm

re: #279 SpaceJesus

when i did my internship in the senate right after undergrad, i would have to answer calls and questions from constituents all the time, and would just make stuff up as answers.

Explains a lot.

328 Izzyboy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:43:17pm

re: #323 Izzyboy

But he won't talk about Cali because Texans hate them :p

Yeah I fail

329 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:43:26pm

re: #298 Walter L. Newton

Because I have taken care of myself as fully as I could for 57 years. And now, that may not be as possible. It's a really good feeling to be able to rely on yourself for all your needs. It's a really good feeling to know that you're self worth has enable yourself to work, feed yourself, take care of others you love, that you are a desired part of society, not a burden. It's a really good feeling to be able to voluntarily help others in need, without any rules or stipulations... selfless giving, not connected to politics or your or someone's self interest of advancement. Those thing are a really good feeling.

Maybe you should try it sometime? I doubt you would understand though.

I do...as cavalier as I sound, it was very difficult to take state money....I'm extremely independent, self employed for most of my life, and have steered clear of the govt like the plague...people yelled at me for a year to do it, they were getting pissed off at me...I paid $900 for two quick visits to the ER when somebody asked me if I had insurance, and when I said no, within minutes a social worker was signing me up for state insurance....I could no longer justify my resistance, so I did it

330 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:43:35pm

re: #309 Stanley Sea

I thought the Texas tort reform was debunked?

Tort reform is a sideshow. It does knock down a provider's insurance costs a little, but it doesn't seem to make any dent in defensive medicine, which is where the money is. There are two problems there:

1> Defensive medicine is now so firmly ingrained in the medical culture of the US that it would take a huge intervention (and many, many years) to get rid of it, and

2> trying to get rid of it begins to smell like "rationing of care" which is an anti-HCR talking point.

There's no there there.

331 torrentprime  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:44:15pm

re: #314 Cato the Elder

So you're against reducing waste, fraud and abuse? Or you think it can't be done?

To me, it's a way to play the "government sucks" card as well as tighten up tort exclusion reform to protect big insurance; it has the added benefit of pretending that substantive reforms are contained therein.

332 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:44:17pm

re: #312 drcordell

My job pays me excellently. With full benefits. I am a worker whose taxes are paying for the benefits that you may soon take advantage of. And you know what? Despite your bad attitude about it, I don't have any problem with it.

We live in the richest nation on earth. We have more than enough money to ensure that nobody dies in the street because they lack the ability to pay for their healthcare. I simply cannot see how this concept is so utterly offensive to you.

He reminds me of a planned parenthood protestor that's angry they find themselves needing a safe and legal abortion.

333 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:44:46pm

re: #320 darthstar

McCain's talking out his ass. Never before has reconciliation been used on an issue of this much importance. Uh, bullshit, John.

That's ok, it's Obama, Pelosi, and crew all on camera talking about how horrendously horrible it would be for the Republicans to use reconciliation in 2005. Constitutional crisis, dontcha know.

334 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:44:54pm

"We're running out of time." Yep...almost time for the Nordic Combined...

335 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:45:09pm

re: #324 Walter L. Newton

You proved my point. I stated above that you couldn't understand, so don't try.

I could never understand the joy of being self-sufficient. Because I don't take one red fucking cent from the government. In fact, I pay tens of thousands of dollars in taxes every year.

But you, openly contemplating taking advantage of social welfare programs, feel justified in attacking MY work ethic? And telling ME that I will never understand what it's like to support myself. Fuck. You.

336 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:45:28pm

re: #333 cliffster

re: #320 darthstar


That's ok, it's Obama, Pelosi, and crew all on camera talking about how horrendously horrible it would be for the Republicans to use reconciliation in 2005. Constitutional crisis, dontcha know.

That is an outright lie. Look it up and stop believing the lies from Hanity.

337 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:45:46pm

re: #333 cliffster

That's ok, it's Obama, Pelosi, and crew all on camera talking about how horrendously horrible it would be for the Republicans to use reconciliation in 2005. Constitutional crisis, dontcha know.

yep...and they used it - for Bush's tax cuts, which are about to expire.

338 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:45:48pm

re: #325 drcordell

With all due respect, how dare you?

I did. Simple wasn't it.

Hey, I've come over to your side. I can't wait for this to pass. And actually, considering the direction my life is probably going in, I hope the Democrats manage to pile a lot more into this health care reform. If I'm going to have to rely on the taxpayer to help support me, I amy as well get as much as I can.

The left always seems so willing to offer it to me. You certainly shouldn't be mad when I finally decide to take it.

Welcome me to the left.

339 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:45:50pm

re: #305 SpaceJesus

every sperm is sacred

god only gives you so many heartbeats, but some have to be wasted on arousal and climax I suppose

340 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:46:16pm

re: #336 Diego

That is an outright lie. Look it up and stop believing the lies from Hanity.

Actually, I've seen the video. I don't watch Hannity.

341 Ojoe  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:46:18pm

Do the people in this video look like they are trying to cooperate for the common good?

Why do we keep electing them?

342 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:46:56pm

re: #332 goddamnedfrank

He reminds me of a planned parenthood protestor that's angry they find themselves needing a safe and legal abortion.

I would never protest planned parenthood... I'm fine with abortions.

343 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:46:57pm

re: #337 darthstar

yep...and they used it - for Bush's tax cuts, which are about to expire.

And they didn't use it - for Social Security reform, which is what they were talking about.

344 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:47:01pm

re: #333 cliffster

The senators were actually speaking out against a Republican effort to eliminate the filibuster in the middle of a session of the U.S. Senate. Not, repeat NOT, reconciliation.

345 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:47:34pm

re: #338 Walter L. Newton

I did. Simple wasn't it.

Hey, I've come over to your side. I can't wait for this to pass. And actually, considering the direction my life is probably going in, I hope the Democrats manage to pile a lot more into this health care reform. If I'm going to have to rely on the taxpayer to help support me, I amy as well get as much as I can.

The left always seems so willing to offer it to me. You certainly shouldn't be mad when I finally decide to take it.

Welcome me to the left.

I am not mad in the least! I am asking you why you seem to be so offended by the concept that you should feel justified in taking advantage of such programs. And in return you repeatedly tell me that I would "never understand" what it's like to support myself. wtf?

346 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:47:34pm

re: #334 darthstar

"We're running out of time." Yep...almost time for the Nordic Combined...

Vonn crashed in the giant slalom today....

347 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:48:13pm

re: #335 drcordell

I could never understand the joy of being self-sufficient. Because I don't take one red fucking cent from the government. In fact, I pay tens of thousands of dollars in taxes every year.

But you, openly contemplating taking advantage of social welfare programs, feel justified in attacking MY work ethic? And telling ME that I will never understand what it's like to support myself. Fuck. You.

Can't please a leftist if you try... take public money, they yell, don't want it, they yell... wonderful.

348 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:48:15pm

re: #343 cliffster

And they didn't use it - for Social Security reform, which is what they were talking about.

That wasn't Social Security Reform. It would have meant the end of Social Security.

349 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:48:16pm

Go Dick Durbin! GO!

350 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:48:19pm

Dick Durban is rocking!

351 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:48:21pm

re: #343 cliffster

And they didn't use it - for Social Security reform, which is what they were talking about.

Because they didn't have 51 votes for it. They would have if they did.

352 torrentprime  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:48:34pm

re: #338 Walter L. Newton

I did. Simple wasn't it.

Hey, I've come over to your side. I can't wait for this to pass. And actually, considering the direction my life is probably going in, I hope the Democrats manage to pile a lot more into this health care reform. If I'm going to have to rely on the taxpayer to help support me, I amy as well get as much as I can.

The left always seems so willing to offer it to me. You certainly shouldn't be mad when I finally decide to take it.

Welcome me to the left.

I don't think theoretical glee at someone's getting religion on one political issue is somehow a shield against personal attacks coming from that same person.

353 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:48:36pm

this guy's pretty good.

354 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:48:36pm

re: #341 Ojoe

Do the people in this video look like they are trying to cooperate for the common good?

Why do we keep electing them?

What is the answer? A revolution? Ron Paul?

355 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:48:47pm

"If you think it is a socialist plot then drop out of the Federal Employees insurance."

356 sngnsgt  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:49:14pm

re: #350 Stanley Sea

Dick Durban is rocking!

And no teleprompter!

357 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:49:39pm

Wow, there's quite an echo in here.

358 Ojoe  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:49:54pm

re: #354 Silvergirl

Whig Party, and quit gerrymandering, and further ...

Well the electorate is lazy.

359 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:50:19pm

re: #237 sagehen

That would be awful.

Just like all those partially-taxpayer-subsidized public universities have driven the Ivy League out of the business. And ever since NYC got those tax-assisted subways, nobody drives their own cars or uses cabs anymore.

Except that the public transit system did kill private bus service in NYC. I can remember Pioneer and Command bus, along with Jamaica Bus. They're all gone - having been rolled over into the NYC TA because they couldn't hack it.

And now that the NYC MTA needs to raise fares and cut services, it will drive those who can drive out of mass transit and back on to the roads because the state subsidies are being cut due to the state and city fiscal mess.

Higher education is a mess of federal subsidies to everyone (direct and via the student loan process) - public and private institutions, with state institutions getting additional state subsidies, and some privates get state subsidies as well. The Ivies get to operate and charge insane amounts of money based on their exclusive nature and reputation. Not exactly a good comparison in either case you present.

360 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:50:53pm

re: #345 drcordell

I am not mad in the least! I am asking you why you seem to be so offended by the concept that you should feel justified in taking advantage of such programs. And in return you repeatedly tell me that I would "never understand" what it's like to support myself. wtf?

In my opinion, if you have to even ask why I feel personally offended by the thought of having to take advantage of public programs, then you are missing something, at least missing something about me.

361 RogueOne  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:51:25pm

I don't understand the republican strategy here. The health care reform issue is highly unpopular and the dems don't even have enough votes to push it through reconciliation. The dems are taking a beating if the repubs were smart they would have just told the president they'd love to talk to him.....next year.

362 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:51:35pm

re: #314 Cato the Elder

So you're against reducing waste, fraud and abuse? Or you think it can't be done?

I think it is very, very hard to do, and I think that the numbers that get kicked around about the scale of the WF&A problem are very unreliable.

I'm as opposed to WF&A as anyone. But no one wants to spend any money to truly attack the problem (it takes auditors and such to root it out), and those efforts, if taken seriously, lead to government becoming even MORE bureaucratic, if such a thing is possible.

Sometimes the issue is raised in bad faith by those who are more interested in establishing the point that government is fundamentally inept and untrustworthy. The "starve the beast" crowd. If they can establish that point, then whatever program or regulation they are opposing looks more suspect, and they never have to go to the merits of the issue at hand.

Having said all of that, I am against it, and when I see a credible proposal to reduce it, I am gung ho.

363 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:51:45pm

re: #347 Walter L. Newton

Can't please a leftist if you try... take public money, they yell, don't want it, they yell... wonderful.

Where did I demand that you please me? I have no problem if you decide NOT to take public money for your healthcare. I have no problem if you DO decide to take public money for your healthcare.

I will say it again. I don't believe anyone in this country should ever die because they lack the financial means to pay for medical treatment. Even you. Why taking this money makes you a "leftist" I don't know.

364 Girth  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:51:54pm

I generally can't stand the guy and I hate how he talks to the CSPAN cameras when giving a speech instead of talking to the Senate, but that was the best thing I've ever heard from Durbin.

365 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:52:06pm

re: #244 Cato the Elder

Sign of the end times: SpaceJesus is only 54 dings away from positive karma.

From a -1000 in the red?
Comeback poster of the year award!

366 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:52:31pm

re: #359 lawhawk

Don't the Ivy League schools also have endowments at this point that generate income the equivalent of the GNP of small countries?

367 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:52:56pm

vid quit streaming...damn

368 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:53:03pm

re: #342 Walter L. Newton

I would never protest planned parenthood... I'm fine with abortions.

Which is why I said you "remind me of," instead of you "are." Get it?

The proper term for people like you is "ingrate."

369 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:53:05pm

re: #365 HoosierHoops

From a -1000 in the red?
Comeback poster of the year award!

Don't count me out quite yet! I was at least -2,000 and now I'm only -361!

370 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:53:07pm

Now it's going to get good. Obama's laying it out real well right now.

371 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:53:45pm

re: #366 oaktree

Don't the Ivy League schools also have endowments at this point that generate income the equivalent of the GNP of small countries?

They used to until they completely loaded themselves with risky derivatives and imploded over the past 5 years.

372 oldegeezr  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:54:52pm

re: #233 Walter L. Newton

I agree, or not?

From my experience, the proliferate use of the “updingy” harkens back to Ed Morrissey’s earlier blog at “Captain’s Quarters” or am I wrong?

Actually I luv it, without exception… especially the first folks on the blog in the very early AM seem inclined to “updingy" every damn thing the other early riser writes?

Gotta luv yeh early risers…
Yes…!

373 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:55:05pm

Doctor, you are talking BS here.

374 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:55:20pm

re: #360 Walter L. Newton

In my opinion, if you have to even ask why I feel personally offended by the thought of having to take advantage of public programs, then you are missing something, at least missing something about me.

So you don't believe someone like yourself, who I'm sure has worked their ass off for 45+ years, deserves a guarantee that we won't let them die because they fell on hard times?

375 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:55:33pm

Some Orthopedic Surgeon from Wyoming is claiming that everyone in America that you talk to believes this is all bad and everyone will DIE!!!!1!

376 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:56:31pm

Barrasso: staring at the camera through most of his speech

377 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:56:37pm

re: #373 webevintage

Doctor, you are talking BS here.

He's using the plaintive voice. Yet another passive-agressive ploy to get sympathy for the status quo.

378 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:57:17pm

re: #374 drcordell

So you don't believe someone like yourself, who I'm sure has worked their ass off for 45+ years, deserves a guarantee that we won't let them die because they fell on hard times?

I told you I do. What have I been saying all down this thread. I say it hurts, it's against everything I stand for, but yes, I want it, I'll take it, I'll take as much as I can...

What's wrong with that?

379 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:57:26pm

re: #360 Walter L. Newton

In my opinion, if you have to even ask why I feel personally offended by the thought of having to take advantage of public programs, then you are missing something, at least missing something about me.

I think you should replace "offended" with "shamed" and you'd probably be left alone.

380 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:57:36pm

re: #377 darthstar

He's using the plaintive voice. Yet another passive-agressive ploy to get sympathy for the status quo.

I had to turn down the sound....

381 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:57:45pm

Dude, this argument is pitiful.

If your catastrophic policy doesn't cover the MRI, you find out the cost of the MRI and you can't afford it, you don't get the MRI. As a Dr. you should be appalled that someone would have to defer the test.

geeze

382 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:57:55pm

re: #359 lawhawk

Except that the public transit system did kill private bus service in NYC. I can remember Pioneer and Command bus, along with Jamaica Bus. They're all gone - having been rolled over into the NYC TA because they couldn't hack it.

And now that the NYC MTA needs to raise fares and cut services, it will drive those who can drive out of mass transit and back on to the roads because the state subsidies are being cut due to the state and city fiscal mess.

Higher education is a mess of federal subsidies to everyone (direct and via the student loan process) - public and private institutions, with state institutions getting additional state subsidies, and some privates get state subsidies as well. The Ivies get to operate and charge insane amounts of money based on their exclusive nature and reputation. Not exactly a good comparison in either case you present.

You are absolutely right. And I imagine all those private buses I see here every day.

Your prediction on the future of mass transit here in NYC is, I think, wrong-headed. But we'll see, won't we?

On higher ed, I agree: it is damn near impossible to calculate the true cost of that product. Everybody subsidizes it some: states, cities, the feds.

383 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:58:39pm

re: #379 recusancy

I think you should replace "offended" with "shamed" and you'd probably be left alone.

I never used the word "offended." I was simply repeating what Dr. Cordell said to me.

384 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:59:41pm

re: #383 Walter L. Newton

I never used the word "offended." I was simply repeating what Dr. Cordell said to me.

Clarification. I never suggested myself that I was offended. Dr. Cordell first used the word in reference to me, I simply repeated the usage.

385 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 12:59:56pm

Heh

386 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:00:20pm

re: #378 Walter L. Newton

I told you I do. What have I been saying all down this thread. I say it hurts, it's against everything I stand for, but yes, I want it, I'll take it, I'll take as much as I can...

What's wrong with that?

I don't think anything is wrong with that. I am simply surprised at the strong language you keep using to describe your opposition to receiving assistance with your healthcare costs. You clearly don't have anything to be ashamed of.

387 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:00:25pm

Would you feel the same if you made $40,000 a year?

hell no!

388 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:01:11pm

re: #387 darthstar

Would you feel the same if you made $40,000 a year?

hell no!

That was a big score.

389 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:01:33pm

I'm not hearing about finding solutions...these guys are just going over old ground...what's the point of this conference?

390 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:01:41pm

LOL!
PWNED!

391 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:01:56pm

Dude got to meet the president. Now he's interrupting the president. I'd love to be a fly on the wall when he got back to his office.

392 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:02:22pm

5 million Americans will lose unemployment and COBRA next month!

5 MILLION! 5 FUCKING MILLION! DO SOMETHING YOU BASTARDS!

393 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:02:35pm

Waxman...now the verbal jiu-jitsu begins.

394 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:03:12pm

re: #386 drcordell

I don't think anything is wrong with that. I am simply surprised at the strong language you keep using to describe your opposition to receiving assistance with your healthcare costs. You clearly don't have anything to be ashamed of.

When did I use the word "ashamed." I don't feel ashamed of anything. Never even implied I was ashamed of a damn thing. Please don't put words in my mouth or attribute a certain feeling to me that I never even approached.

For a matter of fact, if I wind up need it, and I can wrangle even penny I can from the public dole, I'm going to feel absolutely proud of myself.

395 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:03:29pm

I'm so amazed how each time a republican spouts their BS the President comes back and tells them why they are wrong.

"Because members of congress get paid $175,000 a year!!!!!!!"

Finally, a Democrat makes the correct point about HSAs.
and now, do we want the elderly to have catastrophic policies?

396 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:03:41pm

re: #390 Killgore Trout

LOL!
PWNED!

That was probably the most cogent statement I have ever observed Obama make.

They should have had this format from the start.

397 oldegeezr  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:03:43pm

re: #392 Diego

Do you have confidence in Harry Reid...?

398 lawhawk  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:03:45pm

re: #371 drcordell

Even with the hit they took when their investments imploded, many of the Ivies have endowments that are larger than the GNP of quite a few countries.

All took significant hits, but all have endowments above $2 billion. Penn is at $5.2 billion after the fall; Columbia is at $5.9 billion; Dartmouth is at $2.8 billion; Princeton $12.6 billion; Cornell, $4 billion; Brown $2 billion; Yale, $16 billion; and Harvard $25.7 billion.

All figures from Forbes as of January 2010.

399 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:04:11pm

re: #392 Diego

5 million Americans will lose unemployment and COBRA next month!

5 MILLION! 5 FUCKING MILLION! DO SOMETHING YOU BASTARDS!

John Kyl is going to hold the bill up because he is upset that the estate tax will go up next year.
Bastard...

400 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:04:13pm

re: #397 oldegeezr

I wish I did, but he's somewhat spineless. Time will tell.

401 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:04:20pm

it's cocktail hour somewhere

402 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:04:22pm

re: #396 Racer X

That was probably the most cogent statement I have ever observed Obama make.

They should have had this format from the start.

Yeah, the prepared speeches this morning were a waste.

403 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:04:40pm

re: #399 webevintage

He's hoping to impress Paris Hilton..

404 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:05:36pm

did the Dems just loose their collective patience with the BS the Rs have been saying?

405 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:06:18pm

re: #402 Killgore Trout

Yeah, the prepared speeches this morning were a waste.

I'm glad I missed it.

406 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:06:24pm

re: #404 webevintage

did the Dems just loose their collective patience with the BS the Rs have been saying?

Waxman's great. "I'd hate the plan too if I had to listen to what the Republicans have been saying about it...Government takeover?" Great.

407 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:06:56pm

re: #401 albusteve

..cocktail..


Teh Larry Craig??

408 Mr. Crankypants  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:07:24pm

re: #406 darthstar

Waxman's great. "I'd hate the plan too if I had to listen to what the Republicans have been saying about it...Government takeover?" Great.

Its interesting that if asked if they support Obama care they say no, but if asked about the individual ideas in the plan they're all for it.

409 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:07:59pm

re: #403 Diego

He's hoping to impress Paris Hilton..

She's taken. ;)

410 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:08:11pm
411 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:08:18pm

re: #407 Diego

Teh Larry Craig??

SMACK!

412 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:08:24pm

Facing reality is always good. You need money, but you can't pretend it's there when it isn't.

I thought Obama's best statement was

"We can debate whether we can afford to help them. But let's not debate whether they need help."

413 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:08:29pm

BY THE WAY: MOST OF YOU ARE NOW 'PROGRESSIVES'

But that's okay, it's not a sin and isn't destroying America..

414 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:09:21pm

re: #410 Racer X

Where I strongly disagree with the GOP.

So you think that actually setting aside money taken for social security is a bad idea? You think it's better to spend every dime of it, like we're doing now? personally, I think that setting aside the money is good.

415 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:09:26pm

re: #409 Dark_Falcon

Aye, with herself ;)

416 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:09:29pm

re: #413 Diego

BY THE WAY: MOST OF YOU ARE NOW 'PROGRESSIVES'

But that's okay, it's not a sin and isn't destroying America..

But Glenn Beck said it's a disease that needs to be eradicated. ///

417 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:09:43pm

re: #415 Diego

Aye, with herself ;)

LOL!

418 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:10:07pm

re: #416 recusancy

He could qualify as Sarah Palen's offspring.. ;)

419 Girth  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:10:30pm

re: #413 Diego

BY THE WAY: MOST OF YOU ARE NOW 'PROGRESSIVES' 'COMMUNISTS'

/Glenn Beck FTFY

420 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:10:37pm

re: #416 recusancy

But Glenn Beck said it's a disease that needs to be eradicated. ///

Put down the chalk and step away from the blackboard!!

///

421 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:10:48pm

WTH?
I was going to Tivo the rest but CNN & FOX are chattering over the remarks and MSNBC has the Games on and I don't get CSPAN 3.

422 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:11:25pm

re: #421 webevintage

Yup. The dumbing down of America. It'll be online.

423 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:11:42pm

re: #394 Walter L. Newton

When did I use the word "ashamed." I don't feel ashamed of anything. Never even implied I was ashamed of a damn thing. Please don't put words in my mouth or attribute a certain feeling to me that I never even approached.

For a matter of fact, if I wind up need it, and I can wrangle even penny I can from the public dole, I'm going to feel absolutely proud of myself.

You may not have said "I feel ashamed" but you seemingly gave that impression with quotes such as:

"Once I stoop to the level of the public dole"
"I say it hurts, it's against everything I stand for"
"if you have to even ask why I feel personally offended by the thought of having to take advantage of public programs"

424 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:11:55pm

re: #421 webevintage

Use the facebook link: [Link: apps.facebook.com...]

425 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:11:56pm

death panelties!

426 sngnsgt  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:12:16pm

re: #421 webevintage

MSLSD will have Democrat talking points later.

427 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:13:00pm

re: #426 sngnsgt

Faux News will have Glenn Beck..

Barking..

428 freetoken  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:13:01pm

re: #419 Girth

BY THE WAY: MOST OF YOU ARE NOW 'PROGRESSIVES' 'COMMUNISTS' LINCOLNITES

/Glenn Beck Neo-Confederates FTFTFY

429 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:13:07pm

re: #414 cliffster

So you think that actually setting aside money taken for social security is a bad idea? You think it's better to spend every dime of it, like we're doing now? personally, I think that setting aside the money is good.

I think the image speaks for itself.

I am FOR single payer, all-in, everyone pays for health care. Everyone. I am all for reform and an absolute witch hunt to eliminate fraud and waste. We deserve no less.

430 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:13:13pm

re: #418 Diego

He could qualify as Sarah Palen's offspring.. ;)

Explain what you mean here, please.

431 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:13:15pm

re: #413 Diego

BY THE WAY: MOST OF YOU ARE NOW 'PROGRESSIVES'

But that's okay, it's not a sin and isn't destroying America..

Maybe not, but something sure is.

432 Izzyboy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:13:30pm

Pelosi fail

433 Girth  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:13:53pm

A pox on both their houses!

And an extra poke in the eye to the Dems for trying to make corrupt deals to pass their bill, and a kick in the groin to the Reps for lying about just about everything under the sun.

434 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:14:06pm

re: #423 drcordell

Your being pwnd.

435 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:14:10pm

re: #423 drcordell

You may not have said "I feel ashamed" but you seemingly gave that impression with quotes such as:

"Once I stoop to the level of the public dole"
"I say it hurts, it's against everything I stand for"
"if you have to even ask why I feel personally offended by the thought of having to take advantage of public programs"

Then I will spell it out for you... I am not ashamed if I have to go to the government for something in the future. And if I do, I am going to squeeze every penny that I legally rightfully can squeeze from them.

Can you accept that? Are we on the same side with that?

436 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:14:11pm

re: #430 Silvergirl

Clueless. They (the Palins) are all clueless.

437 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:14:31pm

re: #434 Jeff In Ohio

re: #423 drcordell

Your being pwnd.


"You're"

438 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:14:40pm

This guy lost me.

439 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:14:56pm

re: #437 Diego

No, him.

440 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:15:00pm

re: #436 Diego

Clueless. They (the Palins) are all clueless.

Oh, I see.

441 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:15:00pm

re: #378 Walter L. Newton

I told you I do. What have I been saying all down this thread. I say it hurts, it's against everything I stand for, but yes, I want it, I'll take it, I'll take as much as I can...

What's wrong with that?

Nothing ...

For a matter of fact, if I wind up need it, and I can wrangle even penny I can from the public dole, I'm going to feel absolutely proud of myself.

... except for the shifting narrative. Either "it hurts" or you're "going to feel absolutely proud of [yourself]" both cannot simultaneously be true unless you're basing both arguments entirely on situational expediency.

In other words, all you seem to be arguing is that taking the money will hurt less once it's taken. Which is almost definitely true. Take it, it's your birthright as a citizen.

442 Girth  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:15:08pm

re: #429 Racer X

I think the image speaks for itself.

I am FOR single payer, all-in, everyone pays for health care. Everyone. I am all for reform and an absolute witch hunt to eliminate fraud and waste. We deserve no less.

I think I'm there with you on single payer now.

443 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:15:10pm

re: #429 Racer X

I think the image speaks for itself.

I am FOR single payer, all-in, everyone pays for health care. Everyone. I am all for reform and an absolute witch hunt to eliminate fraud and waste. We deserve no less.

Well, I disagree with you on that, but what I really don't understand is the mocking of Social Security reform.

444 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:15:26pm

re: #435 Walter L. Newton

Then I will spell it out for you... I am not ashamed if I have to go to the government for something in the future. And if I do, I am going to squeeze every penny that I legally rightfully can squeeze from them.

Can you accept that? Are we on the same side with that?

We are on the same page. I apologize if I misconstrued your comments.

445 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:15:56pm

That word salad was just too much, had to turn the sound off again.

446 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:16:03pm

I'll bet this guy sucked at Etch-a-sketch

447 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:16:04pm

re: #432 Izzyboy

Pelosi fail

Pelosi fails whenever she steps up to the mike. She's a far-left zealot (unlike Obama, who is simply left-liberal) and much of the nation doesn't believe her simply on that basis. i know I don't.

448 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:16:06pm

re: #429 Racer X

I think the image speaks for itself.

I am FOR single payer, all-in, everyone pays for health care. Everyone. I am all for reform and an absolute witch hunt to eliminate fraud and waste. We deserve no less.

With that being said, I am totally in favor on the R's protesting and pointing out the flaws in the current proposals. There are flaws. There is pork and there is waste.

We can do better.

What you are watching today is HOW.

449 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:16:10pm

Etch a sketch?


Start over. Oh I get it.

450 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:16:21pm

I like Pete....must be a phaunt

451 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:17:03pm

re: #432 Izzyboy

Pelosi fail

Thats a given.

452 freetoken  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:17:04pm

re: #437 Diego

"You're"

Better yet, "Ur", as in Chaldea, or as in TXTNG, whichever you prefer.

453 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:17:09pm

re: #434 Jeff In Ohio

Your being pwnd.

No he's not. My job and financial situation has continued to decline for the last 5 years, and not short of any efforts by myself.

If it continues, I will have to turn somewhere, and if the government want to offer all these handout to me, and I am legally entitled to them, then I will proudly take them, even though it goes against almost everything I was taught and many ways that I have felt about this in the past.

What's wrong with that?

454 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:17:42pm

re: #448 Racer X

It's not an accident that what we got was a bill that was basically going to make insurance companies billions of dollars, and it's not because that's the best that could be done with all the partisan bickering. The bill that was put out there is exactly what the majority of congresspeople wanted.

455 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:18:00pm

re: #441 goddamnedfrank

... except for the shifting narrative. Either "it hurts" or you're "going to feel absolutely proud of [yourself]" both cannot simultaneously be true unless you're basing both arguments entirely on situational expediency.

In other words, all you seem to be arguing is that taking the money will hurt less once it's taken. Which is almost definitely true. Take it, it's your birthright as a citizen.

No, I don't think it's a birthright, but I will take it, proudly.

456 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:18:14pm

re: #453 Walter L. Newton

What's wrong with that?

Nothing at all :)

457 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:18:55pm

re: #443 cliffster

Well, I disagree with you on that, but what I really don't understand is the mocking of Social Security reform.

I think the point of that cartoon was there were many in the GOP who were pushing to let people dump a significant amount of their SS into the stock market. That would have been totally disastrous given the crash last year.

458 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:19:26pm

re: #434 Jeff In Ohio

Your being pwnd.

Hey Jeff, you want to address this directly to me?

459 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:19:26pm

Once again the President has to point out that we are talking about the working poor and middle class who needs the coverage.

460 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:19:45pm

re: #458 Walter L. Newton

Hey Jeff, you want to address this directly to me?

Nope.

461 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:20:02pm

I like the point that Obama is trying to make here. He's really hammering home the point that the poorest Americans who may not even have jobs are covered by Medicaid. But the people who are getting screwed the most are those who have jobs (or probably two jobs) and end up making too much money for medicaid, but too little to afford private coverage.

462 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:20:05pm

re: #457 Racer X

Damn straight! But BOY some of them (brokers, etc) would have made a killing!

463 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:20:05pm

Hey, gotta go, thanks for the lively live blog!

464 Girth  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:20:18pm

re: #457 Racer X

I think the point of that cartoon was there were many in the GOP who were pushing to let people dump a significant amount of their SS into the stock market. That would have been totally disastrous given the crash last year.

Selective amnesia.

465 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:20:19pm

re: #459 webevintage

Once again the President has to point out that we are talking about the working poor and middle class who needs the coverage.

Well, half the room is more concerned with the Insurance industry and lobbyists, so it needs repeating.

466 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:20:22pm

re: #454 cliffster

It's not an accident that what we got was a bill that was basically going to make insurance companies billions of dollars, and it's not because that's the best that could be done with all the partisan bickering. The bill that was put out there is exactly what the majority of congresspeople wanted.

Yep. and I'm glad the GOP called them on it.

467 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:20:27pm

Chow Webe

468 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:21:00pm

re: #460 Jeff In Ohio

Nope.

Then you lose... I'm not pawn (however you spelt that word) anyone. Go back and hide.

469 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:21:17pm
The bill that was put out there is exactly what the majority of congresspeople wanted.

No, it's because of Republican amendments in conference, etc.

470 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:21:33pm

re: #465 darthstar

Well, half the room is more concerned with the Insurance industry and lobbyists, so it needs repeating.

I get the feeling its not the half you think.

471 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:21:36pm

re: #465 darthstar

Well, half the room is more concerned with the Insurance industry and lobbyists, so it needs repeating.

Including Obama.

472 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:21:54pm

Another great point just made regarding the emergency room. Each insurance payer is ponying up $1,100 a year on average to pay for the uninsured.

473 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:22:12pm

re: #471 Walter L. Newton

Including Obama.

I respectfully disagree.

474 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:22:16pm

re: #472 drcordell

Another great point just made regarding the emergency room. Each insurance payer is ponying up $1,100 a year on average to pay for the uninsured.

DING!

475 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:22:19pm

re: #359 lawhawk

Except that the public transit system did kill private bus service in NYC. I can remember Pioneer and Command bus, along with Jamaica Bus. They're all gone - having been rolled over into the NYC TA because they couldn't hack it.

And now that the NYC MTA needs to raise fares and cut services, it will drive those who can drive out of mass transit and back on to the roads because the state subsidies are being cut due to the state and city fiscal mess.

Actually, the MTA was subsidizing the private bus companies in Eastern Queens for decades by providing them with an exclusive contract for services, reimbursing equipment expenses, and other indirect subsidies. Sure the fare was cheaper for the rider (by about a quarter, if memory serves me correctly), but the vehicles were old and rickety, and their overall service sucked. In fact, bus drivers for the Green Line service were being paid $51,000 per year back in 1992, the highest rate in the country!

When the metrocard free transfers between MTA buses and subway came out in 1996, it was only a matter of time before the "independent" bus companies would be brought out by the city. Now all the buses match and are ADA accessible, and the 5 separate bus company offices have been merged with MTA Bus. Can't say the public lost much out of that "private" company loss! Even if the companies were still around, they would be facing a cut in subsidy payments anyway.

476 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:22:34pm

Chris Dodd should be in jail....Charlie Rangle is a thief and a liar...these people are paid to run our govt....what a sick joke...Pelosi is complicit in protecting Rangle...I hate these guys, these are not my kind of people....they alienate me...elitists

477 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:22:37pm

re: #470 Racer X

I get the feeling its not the half you think.

It's true, the lobbyists don't need to try and influence the Republicans. They're voting no regardless. The money is being showered on the Democrats to try and influence what may actually get passed.

478 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:22:58pm

re: #472 drcordell

Another great point just made regarding the emergency room. Each insurance payer is ponying up $1,100 a year on average to pay for the uninsured.

I'm tempted to upding this.

479 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:23:10pm

re: #476 albusteve

Lose the hate. Too much hate on your side of the room.

480 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:23:28pm
481 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:23:45pm

re: #111 cliffster

You see someone learning from their mistakes, I see someone who said whatever he needed to say to win the primary, then say whatever he needed to say to win the general, and now say whatever he needs to say to pass his pet agenda. We disagree on our perception. If you want to hate me for that, hate away...

So you are saying he knew the right thing to do, being all knowing and everything, but lied to get elected?

A prescient president, who knew?

482 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:25:39pm

re: #461 drcordell

I like the point that Obama is trying to make here. He's really hammering home the point that the poorest Americans who may not even have jobs are covered by Medicaid. But the people who are getting screwed the most are those who have jobs (or probably two jobs) and end up making too much money for medicaid, but too little to afford private coverage.

yeah...point it out again....all this blather is almost a year old....this is a ridiculous dog and pony show BO has going....it's nothing more than a way to try and pin blame and responsibility

483 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:25:43pm

re: #479 Diego

Lose the hate. Too much hate on your side of the room.

Hate may be strong word.

I'm totally fucking outraged that Dodd was never held accountable, along with Rangle, Frank, and Pelosi.

484 oldegeezr  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:25:48pm

re: #400 Diego


I wrote earlier...
"el Rushbo capitulated today;

“…that’s where this is going, reconciliation Monday!”

Keep the faith...I still believe the Democrats will do the right thing.

Sometimes; it takes a bit longer for elected politicians to understand what their constituents actually need and want. They must be cajoled by letters, phone calls and emails from their constituents to realize the most critical human direction that's required... to diminish and subdue the overwhelming cacophony and money of the "nattering nabobs" of the powerful health care insurance lobby in Washington".

Keep the faith...and keep sendin' those cards and letters...
Keep it up...!

485 sagehen  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:25:58pm

re: #399 webevintage

John Kyl is going to hold the bill up because he is upset that the estate tax will go up next year.
Bastard...

well, in fairness, those 2/10 of 1% of people whose parents' estates will be large enough to qualify... are far more important to Sen Kyl's continued employment than the ten times that many people who are too broke to ever contribute to his campaign anyway.

486 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:26:25pm

Does anyone here support Chris Dodd? Do you think he should even be around, still in office, still lending his opinion?

487 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:26:37pm

re: #479 Diego

Lose the hate. Too much hate on your side of the room.

I'll hate whenever/whoever I want

488 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:26:56pm

BTW, who wants to bet that the item FOX and Friends decides to make the story is that the Dems got to speak more then the Rs and the President, who we know is such a narcissist, talked more then anyone.
Oh noes.

Now I really am leaving.

489 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:27:07pm

re: #480 Walter L. Newton

Internal Memo Confirms Big Giveaways In White House Deal With Big Pharma

My read was that he made that deal as a political necessity, not out of love for that industry.

Picking a fight with Pharma is a good way to kill a bill.

Whether the tactic was wise or unwise I have no idea.

490 freetoken  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:27:46pm

re: #486 Silvergirl

Does anyone here support Chris Dodd? Do you think he should even be around, still in office, still lending his opinion?

That question is the responsibility of the people of his State, who seem to think he represents their state well enough to have returned him to office.

491 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:28:08pm

Some Republican is yapping about buying insurance across state lines again. And surprise! Medical malpractice. What great new ideas!

Oh, Texas has implemented medical malpractice reform! Wow! I'm sure that's of great interest to the 20% of Texans who lack health insurance.

492 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:28:21pm

Medical malpractice, sell across state lines, medical malpractice, sell across state lines.

To those who have read up on the 3 different health care proposals, these 2 points are insulting.

493 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:28:38pm

re: #479 Diego

Lose the hate. Too much hate on your side of the room.

The hate is earned in their case. The Donks Steve mentioned and a bunch of thieves and liars.

494 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:28:49pm

re: #487 albusteve

I never said you couldn't. It is a shame though, but your life. BTW: you DO know that people who hate don't live as long? Not that I mind..

495 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:29:13pm

re: #492 Stanley Sea

Medical malpractice, sell across state lines, medical malpractice, sell across state lines.

To those who have read up on the 3 different health care proposals, these 2 points are insulting.

Yeah it's a freaking joke. Holding up Texas as an example of a well functioning healthcare system is pathetic.

496 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:29:29pm

re: #490 freetoken

That question is the responsibility of the people of his State, who seem to think he represents their state well enough to have returned him to office.

Completely valid point. Who is posting here now that may fit that category? Or who supports the decision of the people he represents?

497 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:30:40pm

re: #494 Diego

I never said you couldn't. It is a shame though, but your life. BTW: you DO know that people who hate don't live as long? Not that I mind..

/tell that to Castro...

498 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:30:42pm

re: #496 Silvergirl

Old political adage: Everyone hates Congress and everyone loves their Congressman.

499 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:30:59pm

re: #489 garhighway

My read was that he made that deal as a political necessity, not out of love for that industry.

Picking a fight with Pharma is a good way to kill a bill.

Whether the tactic was wise or unwise I have no idea.

First off he said he was not going to deal with Big Pharma. Second, there is something wrong with the whole picture if you can say "Picking a fight with Pharma is a good way to kill a bill." Are you saying that our government is not in our control?

Where did I ever say he did anything out of a "love" of something. All I said was there are other people in that room who more concerned with the Insurance industry and lobbyists. Tell me that I'm wrong.

500 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:31:46pm

re: #494 Diego

I never said you couldn't. It is a shame though, but your life. BTW: you DO know that people who hate don't live as long? Not that I mind..

it's an expression...we already have enough Freudian head hunters around here, we don't need another one

501 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:32:09pm

re: #500 albusteve

:¬)

502 Girth  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:32:32pm

re: #496 Silvergirl

Completely valid point. Who is posting here now that may fit that category? Or who supports the decision of the people he represents?

I don't like Harry Reid or John Boehner either, but I really don't care if people choose to re-elect them because they don't represent me. It's their business, not mine.

503 freetoken  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:32:36pm

re: #496 Silvergirl

Well, Dodd is not my senator... My Senators are "the girls", as we might call them - Boxer and Feinstein.

504 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:32:37pm

re: #491 drcordell

Think about it this way: Malpractice reform made sure that the 80% of Texans would do have insurance can see a doctor. The out-of-control malpractice system down there pre-reform was causing doctors to leave the state. I don't want to make malpractice claims impossible, but better standards and a reduction of jury awards would be a wise thing in my eyes.

505 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:33:18pm

re: #498 garhighway

Old political adage: Everyone hates Congress and everyone loves their Congressman.

Then let's hear from some of them.

I want to hear about luuv for Chris Dodd.

506 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:33:29pm

When it comes to health care reform I am a-political.

Really.

And it should be that way. IMHO

507 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:34:03pm

re: #503 freetoken

Well, Dodd is not my senator... My Senators are "the girls", as we might call them - Boxer and Feinstein.

"Women!"

/Mandy mode off

508 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:35:19pm

re: #503 freetoken

Well, Dodd is not my senator... My Senators are "the girls", as we might call them - Boxer and Feinstein.

I thought you were going to post a YouTube of "California Girls."

I wish they all could be California Girls . . .

:-)

509 sagehen  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:35:54pm

re: #470 Racer X

I get the feeling its not the half you think.

I get the feeling it's way more than half.

510 drcordell  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:35:55pm

re: #504 Dark_Falcon

Think about it this way: Malpractice reform made sure that the 80% of Texans would do have insurance can see a doctor. The out-of-control malpractice system down there pre-reform was causing doctors to leave the state. I don't want to make malpractice claims impossible, but better standards and a reduction of jury awards would be a wise thing in my eyes.

It's true, and I don't disagree with the fact that we do need tort reform. But to hold it up as some sort of magic bullet that will all of a sudden fix our healthcare system is absurd.

511 Girth  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:36:16pm

I thought the Reps were big on not governing by polls...oh that's right, that's just when their shit is unpopular.

512 Randall Gross  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:36:41pm

The Camp segment

513 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:36:57pm

Shaking jowel alert...McConnell mumbling about fictitious consensus of Americans being against HCR.

514 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:37:09pm

re: #510 drcordell

But to hold it up as some sort of magic bullet that will all of a sudden fix our healthcare system is absurd.

Indeed. It's like suggesting enemas are a cure for colon cancer..

515 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:37:11pm

People screaming about Republicans and their scare tactics. R's have their scare tactics, D's have their own. The fact is, health care is expensive, and not everyone is going to get everything they need. Not for long at least. The worst case scenario is that we put in place a system where we try to give everyone everything, and the drain opens up that much more.

516 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:38:14pm

re: #510 drcordell

It's true, and I don't disagree with the fact that we do need tort reform. But to hold it up as some sort of magic bullet that will all of a sudden fix our healthcare system is absurd.

That I'll upding, because I agree.

517 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:38:21pm

re: #513 darthstar

Shaking jowel alert...McConnell mumbling about fictitious consensus of Americans being against HCR.

What do his jowls have to do with anything?

Jowlist.

518 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:38:25pm

re: #515 cliffster

'There isn't enough for everyone' is a fairly lame stance.

519 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:38:45pm

re: #517 Silvergirl

What do his jowls have to do with anything?

Jowlist.

JDS!

520 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:38:51pm

re: #515 cliffster

People screaming about Republicans and their scare tactics. R's have their scare tactics, D's have their own. The fact is, health care is expensive, and not everyone is going to get everything they need. Not for long at least. The worst case scenario is that we put in place a system where we try to give everyone everything, and the drain opens up that much more.

Scare tactic? Well, yes, we do have one...

521 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:39:05pm

re: #516 Dark_Falcon

me too... scary huh?

522 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:39:30pm

re: #504 Dark_Falcon

Think about it this way: Malpractice reform made sure that the 80% of Texans would do have insurance can see a doctor. The out-of-control malpractice system down there pre-reform was causing doctors to leave the state. I don't want to make malpractice claims impossible, but better standards and a reduction of jury awards would be a wise thing in my eyes.

All of what you have said is true, and I too support tort reform on a national level so that doctors don't have to choose between treating difficult patient conditions and refusing to see them for fear of being sued out of business. However, tort reform in Texas has done virtually nothing to reduce costs! Obidicut has linked to several articles that explain the situation (particularly in McAllen) better than I can, but the basic point is that out-of-control medical malpractice suits account for less than 2% of the high cost of medical care in the USA. So let us not assume that malpractice reform will make things dramatically better when it comes time to pay the bills....

523 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:39:34pm

re: #518 Diego

'There isn't enough for everyone' is a fairly lame stance.

Reality is a bitch

524 sagehen  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:39:46pm

re: #490 freetoken

That question is the responsibility of the people of his State, who seem to think he represents their state well enough to have returned him to office.

Sen Dodd is a lame duck. The people his state dislike him enough he's not even running for reelection.

525 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:39:57pm

re: #518 Diego

'There isn't enough for everyone' is a fairly lame stance.

I don't think that is what Cliff said.

526 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:39:59pm

re: #523 cliffster

But it's not reality. Not by a fair shot.

527 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:40:06pm

re: #517 Silvergirl

What do his jowls have to do with anything?

Jowlist.

He's the Brit "the walrus" Hume of the Senate. He always looks like he's just bitten into a turd. Not a happy looking man.

528 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:40:21pm

re: #523 cliffster

Reality is a bitch

Guess you have yours.

529 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:40:58pm

re: #510 drcordell

Medical Malpractice awards as a percentage of the overall healthcare dollar are a very small percentage.

Defensive medicine dollars are more of a problem (IMO) than malpractice awards, but the two are so closely merged, they need to be counted as a single item.

I'm guessing that the two together add up to a substantial amount.

I don't know how much, and my perception is purely anecdotal. Anybody have something to shoot that perception down?

530 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:41:33pm

re: #499 Walter L. Newton

First off he said he was not going to deal with Big Pharma. Second, there is something wrong with the whole picture if you can say "Picking a fight with Pharma is a good way to kill a bill." Are you saying that our government is not in our control?

Where did I ever say he did anything out of a "love" of something. All I said was there are other people in that room who more concerned with the Insurance industry and lobbyists. Tell me that I'm wrong.

Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought you were implying that Obama was concerned about their welfare, not concerned about them as potential opponents.

I would respectfully suggest that anyone who is approaching HCR with the goal of getting something meaningful done has to spend some time thinking about which fights are winnable and which aren't. And my read of BHO is that he is ultimately a pragmatist who will make whatever deal he needs to make with whomever he needs to make it to get a minimally acceptable HCR bill passed. If it's Pharma, it's Pharma.

I also suspect that if he were asked to define his ideal HCR answer, and was unconstrained by politics, then his answer would be a broader and more comprehensive solution than anything we have seen. But politics is the art of the possible, and that means making deals.

Saying that this implies that our government is not in our control just misses the whole point.

531 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:41:44pm

re: #527 darthstar

He's the Brit "the walrus" Hume of the Senate. He always looks like he's just bitten into a turd. Not a happy looking man.

That should be good for some updings.

532 freetoken  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:42:15pm

re: #524 sagehen

But they've returned him in the past. Now, perhaps he is well past his "sell-by" date... There are I think 3 Repubs vying to represent Conn., including Linda McMahon, CFO of the WWE - she would make for an interesting Senator.

533 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:42:19pm

Score card on health care reform:

Democratss gave up: Single payer, Public option, National exchange

Republicans gave up:

534 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:42:42pm

re: #524 sagehen

Sen Dodd is a lame duck. The people his state dislike him enough he's not even running for reelection.

With a good pension and a sweeet mortgage, he doesn't need the work.

535 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:43:12pm

re: #533 Diego

Score card on health care reform:

Democratss gave up: Single payer, Public option, National exchange

Republicans gave up:

In their defense, the Republicans have given up everything they've offered.

536 EastSider  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:43:24pm

re: #533 Diego

Score card on health care reform:

Democratss gave up: Single payer, Public option, National exchange

Republicans gave up:

Which is hilarious considering who has 57/100 majority.

I love the positioning that passing something with 52 votes out of 100 is somehow not democratic.

537 sagehen  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:43:39pm

re: #508 Silvergirl

I thought you were going to post a YouTube of "California Girls."

I wish they all could be California Girls . . .

:-)

538 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:43:42pm

Wow, they're still going at it.

539 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:43:46pm

re: #215 darthstar

It'll cost us a lot less to take care of your ass than it would if this bill didn't pass and you got sick.


re: #217 Walter L. Newton

You don't worry about my ass... ok? Take care of your own fucking ass.

That was his point. Note he said, "It'll cost us...".
'US', not 'you'.

540 Izzyboy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:44:23pm

Rangel is from my state, I'm sad.

541 jaunte  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:44:46pm

re: #529 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Medical Malpractice awards as a percentage of the overall healthcare dollar are a very small percentage.

Defensive medicine dollars are more of a problem (IMO) than malpractice awards, but the two are so closely merged, they need to be counted as a single item.

I'm guessing that the two together add up to a substantial amount.

I don't know how much, and my perception is purely anecdotal. Anybody have something to shoot that perception down?

Here's one study of 800 physicians, projected nationally:


The results of Kessler and McClellan's study have been applied to current health care expenditure to approximate the cost of defensive medicine across the nation. These statistics applied to the nation's $1.4 trillion annual health care expenditure in 2005 (estimated to be over $2 trillion this fiscal year by President Obama), show that health care costs could have been reduced by $124 billion overall and government expenses by $50 billion per year. Adding the cost of defending malpractice cases, paying compensation, and covering additional administrative costs (a total of $29.4 billion), the average American family thus pays an additional $2,000 per year in health care just to cover the costs of defensive medicine. With the national health care costs expected to be over $4.5 trillion by 2017, the cost of defensive medicine to the average American could triple in the next 10 years.[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

542 Kragar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:45:02pm

Working alternate hours today, what I miss?

543 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:45:20pm

re: #538 Killgore Trout

Wow, they're still going at it.

Rangel's the last one to speak.

544 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:45:24pm

I also think we should outlaw those damn annoying prescription drug commercials. How many morons see that stupid commercial then run to their doctor for a barrage of unnecessary tests and procedures.

545 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:45:35pm

re: #504 Dark_Falcon

Malpractice laws have not kept health care costs or malpractice costs down in Texas.

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

546 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:45:47pm

re: #538 Killgore Trout

Wow, they're still going at it.

when you think of how much (of our) money is on the table, I don't see it stopping...

547 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:45:54pm

re: #528 Stanley Sea

Guess you have yours.

Reality is reality. The existing government programs are hemorrhaging money and as more people qualify for them, the problem will get worse. And worse. We are in a crisis situation as it is; we'll soon be completely upside down in our debt, and all people can do is make stupid partisan jokes about whatever side they are not on.

548 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:45:55pm

re: #522 Surabaya Stew

All of what you have said is true, and I too support tort reform on a national level so that doctors don't have to choose between treating difficult patient conditions and refusing to see them for fear of being sued out of business. However, tort reform in Texas has done virtually nothing to reduce costs! Obidicut has linked to several articles that explain the situation (particularly in McAllen) better than I can, but the basic point is that out-of-control medical malpractice suits account for less than 2% of the high cost of medical care in the USA. So let us not assume that malpractice reform will make things dramatically better when it comes time to pay the bills...

The med mal reform push assumes that the reform automatically brings about a reduction in defensive medicine. That is purely a hypothesis and hasn't been borne out by any data anywhere.

549 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:45:57pm

re: #541 jaunte

Whoa.

Perception IS reality...

550 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:45:59pm

re: #544 Racer X

I also think we should outlaw those damn annoying prescription drug commercials. How many morons see that stupid commercial then run to their doctor for a barrage of unnecessary tests and procedures.

Totally agree. Use that marketing money to create new drugs or lower prices for consumers.

551 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:46:32pm

re: #550 recusancy

Indeed!

552 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:46:46pm

re: #541 jaunte

Oh! Sorry.

Thank you.

553 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:46:49pm

re: #550 recusancy

Totally agree. Use that marketing money to create new drugs or lower prices for consumers.

down with free enterprise!

554 Kragar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:47:28pm

re: #549 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Whoa.

Perception IS reality...

The cake is a lie.

555 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:47:34pm

re: #533 Diego

Score card on health care reform:

Democratss gave up: Single payer, Public option, National exchange

Republicans gave up:

The GOP is craftily evil. Sneaky bastards. Bullying the gullible Dems so easily. Assholes.

556 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:47:43pm

I think they should outlaw truck commercials that show them flying through the desert tearing shit up

557 Izzyboy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:47:50pm

Rangel has 2 hot chicks behind him... Hmm

558 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:48:07pm

re: #538 Killgore Trout

Wow, they're still going at it.

Biden spiked the water pitchers with Viagra.

559 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:48:12pm

re: #537 sagehen

[Video]

I was expecting The Beach Boys, but appreciate your find.

It's about as far removed from freetoken's California girls as you can get. True?

560 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:48:31pm

re: #553 albusteve

down with free enterprise!

well when you dig deep enough you always get to the truth...

561 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:48:35pm

re: #555 Racer X

It's not that, it's the Dems trying to get the Reps to work with them.

But the Reps are not interested in anything other than defeating Obama on every issue.

562 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:48:41pm

re: #547 cliffster

Reality is reality. The existing government programs are hemorrhaging money and as more people qualify for them, the problem will get worse. And worse. We are in a crisis situation as it is; we'll soon be completely upside down in our debt, and all people can do is make stupid partisan jokes about whatever side they are not on.

I agree with you on the joking.

563 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:48:46pm

re: #553 albusteve

down with free enterprise!

It's not free enterprise cause you need a prescription to buy the product they're selling.

564 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:49:07pm

re: #557 Izzyboy

Rangel has 2 hot chicks behind him... Hmm

he's a fucking gangster

565 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:49:14pm

re: #556 albusteve

I think they should outlaw truck commercials that show them flying through the desert tearing shit up

All commercials should feature the talking E*Trade baby. Every single one.

566 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:49:18pm

re: #548 garhighway

Exactly. Moreover, whether or not the medicine was actually being practiced defensively in the first place is unproven.

The only real factor in play in malpractice is bedside manner. That is what will make people sue or not sue. It is not actually the care received. It is how the doctor presents themselves.

I am completely in favor of Gawande's suggestion around this, which would replace malpractice insurance with a common pool that doctors would pay into that would be used to compensate people for things that went wrong during their procedures. Very, very few people who are injured or hurt due to 'malpractice' (even the best doctor makes mistakes, so calling it malpractice is like calling a missed shot by a basketball player malpractice) actually ever sue and get any compensation whatsoever.

The system Gawande proposes would be more fair to doctors, to patients, and would only screw the ambulance-chasers. I'm fine with that.

567 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:49:32pm

re: #542 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Went to a store, the sign said, "open 24 hours". Guy was locking the door. I said, "The sign says your open 24 hours." Guy looked at me and said, "Not in a row."
-Steven Wright

568 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:49:33pm

re: #557 Izzyboy

Rangel has 2 hot chicks behind him... Hmm

well thanks to big pharma that is now possible ;)

569 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:49:48pm

re: #563 recusancy

It's not free enterprise cause you need a prescription to buy the product they're selling.

so what?...you need to be 21 to buy beer

570 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:49:50pm

re: #89 MandyManners

Mighty big leap.

Really?

571 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:49:57pm

re: #554 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

There's cake?

572 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:50:00pm

re: #568 brookly red

Not just pharma that's big ;)

573 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:50:12pm

re: #571 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Pie..

574 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:50:21pm

re: #96 MandyManners

Watch out! You're gonna' get called a "racist" soon.

(Screams.)

575 Kragar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:50:34pm

re: #557 Izzyboy

Rangel has 2 hot chicks behind him... Hmm

Must be taking Khadafi lessons.

576 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:50:42pm

re: #568 brookly red

well thanks to big pharma that is now possible ;)

Charlie the Stiff

577 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:51:05pm

re: #542 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Working alternate hours today, what I miss?

HCR summit is still going on. GOP has already sent people out to Fox to declare the summit a failure--before it's even over.

Highlights:
One Republican used an Etch-a-sketch analogy to argue for resetting.
McCain made some campaign-era comments, and had President Obama remind him that the election ended a year ago last November.
John Boehner proposed absolutely nothing, but was very orange in doing so.

Other than that, you didn't miss much.
Oh, and spacejesus is getting close to positive karma.

578 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:51:09pm

re: #545 Obdicut

Malpractice laws have not kept health care costs or malpractice costs down in Texas.

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

The representative FROM Texas just said it did go down - 18%?. Or you can believe an article from a writer in New Yorker magazine.

The truth is probably somewhere in between.

Malpractice costs suck big.

579 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:51:23pm

re: #541 jaunte

re: #548 garhighway

The med mal reform push assumes that the reform automatically brings about a reduction in defensive medicine. That is purely a hypothesis and hasn't been borne out by any data anywhere.


That is what I suspect as well. On a anecdotal level, I have noticed that doctors and hospitals are far more proactive in ordering additional tests and other questionable procedures when I have had medical coverage. Not only because they want to CYA, but because they can get more money from the insurance companies that way. I suspect being paid by medical procedures ordered per patient rater than a salary is another leading reason for defensive medicine abuses.

580 Girth  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:51:37pm

re: #565 garhighway

All commercials should feature the talking E*Trade baby. Every single one.

Sometimes that stuff doesn't work as intended...

I have never bought an Energizer battery after they started the bunny commercials way back when.

I hated that little fucker that much.

581 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:51:43pm

re: #573 Diego

You need a new avatar

582 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:52:01pm
583 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:52:08pm

re: #577 darthstar


John Boehner proposed absolutely nothing, but was very orange in doing so.


Ha!

584 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:52:08pm

re: #582 Bubblehead II

Why?

585 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:52:42pm

re: #580 Girth

Sometimes that stuff doesn't work as intended...

I have never bought an Energizer battery after they started the bunny commercials way back when.

I hated that little fucker that much.

Now that is a grudge. Poor widdle bunny.

586 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:52:48pm

re: #582 Bubblehead II

Nevermind, I see :P

587 solomonpanting  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:53:03pm

re: #533 Diego

Score card on health care reform:

Democratss gave up: Single payer, Public option, National exchange

Republicans gave up:

One road toward bankrupting the country?
Surely there must be several instances where a large government-run/administered program has led to decreased costs without rationing?

Some folks criticize religious folks for the blind/not blind faith invested in the supernatural.
What's to be said of the faith invested in a belief that there will be savings or no rationing this frickin' time? Hope? "I just know it'll work this time."

588 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:53:17pm

I think we found someone older and more incoherent then McCain.

589 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:53:47pm

re: #566 Obdicut

Exactly. Moreover, whether or not the medicine was actually being practiced defensively in the first place is unproven.

The only real factor in play in malpractice is bedside manner. That is what will make people sue or not sue. It is not actually the care received. It is how the doctor presents themselves.

I am completely in favor of Gawande's suggestion around this, which would replace malpractice insurance with a common pool that doctors would pay into that would be used to compensate people for things that went wrong during their procedures. Very, very few people who are injured or hurt due to 'malpractice' (even the best doctor makes mistakes, so calling it malpractice is like calling a missed shot by a basketball player malpractice) actually ever sue and get any compensation whatsoever.

The system Gawande proposes would be more fair to doctors, to patients, and would only screw the ambulance-chasers. I'm fine with that.

If you can get providers speaking frankly they will all tell you that defensive medicine is rampant.

But they wouldn't just stop because a bill passes. They have all seen lots of examples of tort reform passing and then being struck down by the courts. (Happened in Illinois last month.) So there is zero trust that a legislative remedy would be meaningful and lasting. And they have all grown up as doctors ordering the extra tests, and those habits are very hard to unlearn.

So the logical underpinning of the "tort reform will reduce costs" statement is missing.

590 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:53:48pm

re: #578 Racer X

That 'writer' is one of the top surgeons in the US, who's written several books on the practice of medicine. So yes, I trust him more than a politician.

591 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:54:11pm

re: #588 recusancy

I think we found someone older and more incoherent then McCain.

Ageist.

592 sagehen  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:54:21pm

re: #559 Silvergirl

I was expecting The Beach Boys, but appreciate your find.

It's about as far removed from freetoken's California girls as you can get. True?

I dunno, they're both skinny, and sort of cute for their age group...

593 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:54:30pm

re: #530 garhighway

[snip]

Saying that this implies that our government is not in our control just misses the whole point.

I would say, in the over all scheme of thing, that point is more important than anything. It's the whole reason that DC has become a three-class society... kleptocrats, plutocrats and autocrats.

Every politician in DC falls into one of those categories, and that's what they are beholden to, not us.

594 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:54:46pm

re: #589 garhighway

What I meant was that-- practicing medicine to make more money by ordering tests that aren't really necessary and practicing defensive medicine look very, very similar. So there's also the cultural attitude amongst doctors in that regard, as well.

595 Kragar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:54:50pm

re: #580 Girth

Sometimes that stuff doesn't work as intended...

I have never bought an Energizer battery after they started the bunny commercials way back when.

I hated that little fucker that much.

The whole talking babies thing has never appealed to me in any way shape or form. Definately not a way to attract my attention.

596 Izzyboy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:55:02pm

re: #588 recusancy

Pelosi is the worst of the old people.

597 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:55:08pm

re: #582 Bubblehead II

re: #550 recusancy

Big Pharma Spends More On Advertising Than Research And Development, Study Finds

again, if the gubermint would extend patents the pharma companies would not have to make back their investments so quickly to be profitable.

598 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:55:14pm

re: #596 Izzyboy

Pelosi is the worst of the old people.

Why?

599 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:55:21pm

re: #579 Surabaya Stew

I can not potentially disagree with that.

600 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:55:24pm

re: #561 Diego

It's not that, it's the Dems trying to get the Reps to work with them.

But the Reps are not interested in anything other than defeating Obama on every issue.

Well, that is one reason I guess.

The other is they might want to see something that meets their constituents desires.

601 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:55:37pm

Following Ezra Klein's twitter:

If polls are so important to the Republicans, why aren't they for the public option?

Ezra's twitter feed

602 hokiepride  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:55:43pm

re: #577 darthstar

So the fact that the campaign is over means that Obama does not have to keep his promises? After all the "change" that was promised it is going to be business as usual again eh?

I am so surprised...NOT

603 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:56:32pm

re: #600 Racer X

re: #561 Diego


Well, that is one reason I guess.

The other is they might want to see something that meets their constituents desires.

You're saying they gave up what people what to give people what they want??

The public option has strong support. It's not in either bill.

604 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:56:56pm

re: #595 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm not getting Nationwide insurance, but the "World's greatest spokesperson in the World" commercials have got me.

Some things just kind of hit me funny.

605 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:57:20pm

re: #603 Diego

You're saying they gave up what people what to give people what they want??

The public option has strong support. It's not in either bill.

it was dropped for lack of support...

606 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:57:30pm

Boehner Rips Health Care Plan In Statement Sent Mid-Summit
He's still sitting at the table. Did he write this last night?

607 Izzyboy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:57:46pm

re: #598 recusancy

She's really old? Looks like she's passing out in some session photos.

608 Girth  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:57:51pm

LOL...Pelosi's trying to be complimentary to Coburn and insults all the other Reps in the process...swing and a miss Nancy.

609 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:57:55pm

re: #602 hokiepride

So the fact that the campaign is over means that Obama does not have to keep his promises? After all the "change" that was promised it is going to be business as usual again eh?

I am so surprised...NOT

President Obama is keeping his promises. He hasn't completed every single one of them, and he's fallen behind on others (DADT, DOMA, Guantanamo). McCain was just making noise this morning. He deserved to get mocked into submission.

610 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:57:59pm

re: #582 Bubblehead II

re: #550 recusancy

Big Pharma Spends More On Advertising Than Research And Development, Study Finds

Hmm. I wonder why an aspirin costs $8 each in the hospital? I wonder why that new heart drug costs $57 a tablet?

611 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:58:12pm

re: #605 brookly red

Not at all. Lack of support in gevernment, because it made the fight harder, but it has VERY strong public support. And not jsut Democrats.

612 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:58:33pm

Boehner and McConnell got the oh shit look on their faces when Pelosi just called them out on lying.

613 sagehen  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:58:36pm

re: #579 Surabaya Stew

re: #548 garhighway

That is what I suspect as well. On a anecdotal level, I have noticed that doctors and hospitals are far more proactive in ordering additional tests and other questionable procedures when I have had medical coverage. Not only because they want to CYA, but because they can get more money from the insurance companies that way. I suspect being paid by medical procedures ordered per patient rater than a salary is another leading reason for defensive medicine abuses.

For just this reason, some states don't allow doctors or their spouses to have any financial interest in labs or imaging centers... it's astonishing how many less blood tests and cat scans and x-rays you need in those states.

614 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:58:38pm

republicans looking stunned and confused.

615 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:58:51pm

And now Nancy just pisses all over the floor.

Nice fucking job.

616 jaunte  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:58:58pm

re: #545 Obdicut

Malpractice laws have not kept health care costs or malpractice costs down in Texas.

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

That's an excellent article. No matter who pays, the ethics and motivation of the providers make a huge difference in overall costs.

617 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:58:59pm

re: #611 Diego

Not at all. Lack of support in gevernment, because it made the fight harder, but it has VERY strong public support. And not jsut Democrats.

OK if you say so...

618 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:59:08pm

re: #593 Walter L. Newton

I would say, in the over all scheme of thing, that point is more important than anything. It's the whole reason that DC has become a three-class society... kleptocrats, plutocrats and autocrats.

Every politician in DC falls into one of those categories, and that's what they are beholden to, not us.

few people here care what you say...notice the depth of political trust and the irrational slamming of one pol while elevating another?...as if govt and politics is a reasonable and functional system...people are deep in and actually believe that their candidate can make a difference or their ideology will be represented...heh, what a waste of time and emotion

619 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:59:26pm

re: #615 Racer X

And now Nancy just pisses all over the floor.

Nice fucking job.

She's calling them out on their lies. Gloves are off. Finally.

620 freetoken  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:59:31pm

re: #538 Killgore Trout

Wow, they're still going at it.

The Republicans really shouldn't get in the same room as President Obama - he makes them look bad. (These days that doesn't take much effort.)

What is being shown on TV is the President of the United States wanting to find some sort of compromise to tackle the "health care" problem. Therefore, anyone who is against this effort really is being portrayed as the "bad guy".

621 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:59:36pm

re: #593 Walter L. Newton

I would say, in the over all scheme of thing, that point is more important than anything. It's the whole reason that DC has become a three-class society... kleptocrats, plutocrats and autocrats.

Every politician in DC falls into one of those categories, and that's what they are beholden to, not us.

I say that just because the just task is hard isn't a reason to try.

Is the system a mess? Of course it is. Too much money is in the game. Do you have some thoughts on how to fix it? Love to hear them.

But this is today. We have the system we have and the Congress that we have. I say that trying to do some good is worth the pain and aggravation. I think BHO is trying to do good here. He may succeed or he may fail. He has and will make mistakes in the process. But better to try.

622 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 1:59:52pm

re: #598 recusancy

Why?

just because...it's no use

623 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:00:25pm

re: #617 brookly red

I don't say so, the polls do. Asked if people support 'health care reform' they say no. Ask if they like the different parts, including the public option, they say yes. Look it up, just not on Faux, Drudge, or any other Conservative site.

624 hokiepride  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:01:20pm

re: #609 darthstar

What promise has he held?

1) Iraq war over by 2009 - troops home - unkept
2) end to Bush era anti-terror measures - unkept
3) no lobbyists - unkept
4) close GBC - unkept
5) control deficits - unkept

"falling behind" is a nice way of saying "he failed". And McCain was right on to call him out on it

625 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:01:36pm

re: #619 darthstar

She's calling them out on their lies. Gloves are off. Finally.

If Nancy Pelosi says someone is lying, then I assume they are telling the truth.

626 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:02:44pm

re: #625 Dark_Falcon

If the other person is Boehner, that's not the best assumption in the world, and I don't like Pelosi one whit.

627 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:02:49pm

re: #624 hokiepride

What promise has he held?

1) Iraq war over by 2009 - troops home - unkept
2) end to Bush era anti-terror measures - unkept
3) no lobbyists - unkept
4) close GBC - unkept
5) control deficits - unkept

"falling behind" is a nice way of saying "he failed". And McCain was right on to call him out on it

Doing what was necessary to avoid a depression comes to mind.

628 hokiepride  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:02:49pm

re: #625 Dark_Falcon

LOL. So true

629 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:02:56pm

re: #620 freetoken

The Republicans really shouldn't get in the same room as President Obama - he makes them look bad. (These days that doesn't take much effort.)

What is being shown on TV is the President of the United States wanting to find some sort of compromise to tackle the "health care" problem. Therefore, anyone who is against this effort really is being portrayed as the "bad guy".

it's all meaningless...another Hopenhagen

630 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:03:03pm

re: #455 Walter L. Newton

No, I don't think it's a birthright, but I will take it, proudly.

Good for you, however you view it. I had to take public assistance once, and doing so literally saved my life. I could not have secured access to the tests and procedures needed without it.

Maybe try to think of it as a crossover right, something the other side of the political fence is responsible for maintaining in case of emergency. For instance I certainly enjoy the hell out of the second amendment, but my side has sadly ceded that territory to the opposition, so I look to conservatives to defend the arsenal.

631 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:03:03pm

re: #621 garhighway

I say that just because the just task is hard isn't a reason to try.

Is the system a mess? Of course it is. Too much money is in the game. Do you have some thoughts on how to fix it? Love to hear them.

But this is today. We have the system we have and the Congress that we have. I say that trying to do some good is worth the pain and aggravation. I think BHO is trying to do good here. He may succeed or he may fail. He has and will make mistakes in the process. But better to try.

No... I don't think any of them are trying to do good for anyone but the special interest they are beholden to. Period. If something "good" comes out of any machination in DC, it's secondary to the real purpose.

I have a very simple answer, vote EVERY incumbent out of office as soon as possible, with a very public stance on why they are being voted out. Every citizen needs to put partisan politics aside for at least two election cycles and go ahead and vote party, but only vote new candidate in.

Right from the local level and up.

632 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:03:20pm

re: #619 darthstar

She's calling them out on their lies. Gloves are off. Finally.

And yet the dems gave up all kinds of shit, and the the reps gave up nothing. And now they are pissed off at Nancy. Again.

OK. Go it alone then. Good luck.

633 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:03:21pm

re: #627 darthstar

Well, I'm pretty depressed. It ain't workin'.
/

634 hokiepride  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:03:43pm

re: #627 darthstar

How does keeping Bush era terror policies alive keep depression at bay?

635 freetoken  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:04:05pm

In this made-for-TV mellow-drama, the President is the protagonist and the GOP plays the antagonist.

On American TV, protagonists are usually (save for a few dour soap-operas) the "winners".

636 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:04:06pm

re: #625 Dark_Falcon

If Nancy Pelosi says someone is lying, then I assume they are telling the truth.

In this case she's right. The Republicans have been relying on dishonest talking points and they're taking a beating for it. That's why they do so bad at these televised summits. They can get away with it on Fox News but when there's a real debate their arguments fall apart pretty quick.

637 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:04:15pm

re: #634 hokiepride

Waterboard anyone who's depressed? :P

638 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:04:22pm

re: #631 Walter L. Newton

I have a very simple answer, vote EVERY incumbent out of office as soon as possible, with a very public stance on why they are being voted out.

So what's your answer to fixing anything, again?

That's not a plan that actually achieves anything. You still need, then, to get good, competent people elected.

639 darthstar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:04:23pm

Sorry folks...I've got a meeting right now...back later.

640 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:04:30pm

re: #623 Diego

I don't say so, the polls do. Asked if people support 'health care reform' they say no. Ask if they like the different parts, including the public option, they say yes. Look it up, just not on Faux, Drudge, or any other Conservative site.

so how about a national public referendum, an up or down vote?

641 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:04:33pm

re: #639 darthstar

Chow

642 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:04:48pm

re: #627 darthstar

Doing what was necessary to avoid a depression comes to mind.

TARP was a Bush thing

643 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:04:50pm

It's honestly astonishing to me how different a conversation seems from one side of the aisle to the other. Two dudes look at this, and there'll be no disagreement about whether she looks good or not.

On the other hand, one person thinks that Obama owned the GOP today, and simply can't believe someone could see it any other way. Another person thinks he looked like an idiot, and only a left wing hack would think otherwise.

This debate is polarized beyond rescue.

644 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:04:55pm

re: #640 brookly red

How about getting the Republicans to agree to it?

645 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:05:00pm

re: #635 freetoken

In this made-for-TV mellow-drama, the President is the protagonist and the GOP plays the antagonist.

On American TV, protagonists are usually (save for a few dour soap-operas) the "winners".

I will say Obama is doing a good job in this format.

646 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:05:13pm

re: #610 Racer X

Well with the average cost for a 30 second spot on national TV at prime time at $122, 133 they have to recoup that money somehow.

647 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:05:35pm

re: #641 Diego

Chow

It's a meeting. Not dinner.

648 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:05:57pm

re: #647 Silvergirl

Ba da bing! :D

649 hokiepride  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:06:02pm

re: #642 albusteve

exactly he has copied so many of Bush era policies after HopeNChange. McCain was right on target.

650 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:06:41pm

re: #641 Diego

Chow

**Ciao**

651 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:06:46pm

re: #643 cliffster

It's honestly astonishing to me how different a conversation seems from one side of the aisle to the other. Two dudes look at this, and there'll be no disagreement about whether she looks good or not.

On the other hand, one person thinks that Obama owned the GOP today, and simply can't believe someone could see it any other way. Another person thinks he looked like an idiot, and only a left wing hack would think otherwise.

This debate is polarized beyond rescue.

Quite Concur.

652 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:06:50pm

re: #630 goddamnedfrank

Good for you, however you view it. I had to take public assistance once, and doing so literally saved my life. I could not have secured access to the tests and procedures needed without it.

Maybe try to think of it as a crossover right, something the other side of the political fence is responsible for maintaining in case of emergency. For instance I certainly enjoy the hell out of the second amendment, but my side has sadly ceded that territory to the opposition, so I look to conservatives to defend the arsenal.

It absolutely amazes me that you want me to take it a certain way. You're not as concerned with me taking it, you're more concerned with how I politically view the process and how my taking fits with your political proclivities.

Guess what, if I need to take it, I will, but that will never stop me from exposing the left for what it is.

653 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:07:15pm

re: #644 Diego

How about getting the Republicans to agree to it?

I am a registered Democrat from NYC & I don't want it... why would I want to do that?

654 Girth  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:07:22pm

re: #636 Killgore Trout

In this case she's right. The Republicans have been relying on dishonest talking points and they're taking a beating for it. That's why they do so bad at these televised summits. They can get away with it on Fox News but when there's a real debate their arguments fall apart pretty quick.

I agree, but it was tactless. The Speaker shouldn't say these things, she should get one of her leaders to do it.

655 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:07:24pm

re: #643 cliffster

It's honestly astonishing to me how different a conversation seems from one side of the aisle to the other. Two dudes look at this, and there'll be no disagreement about whether she looks good or not.

On the other hand, one person thinks that Obama owned the GOP today, and simply can't believe someone could see it any other way. Another person thinks he looked like an idiot, and only a left wing hack would think otherwise.

This debate is polarized beyond rescue.

a lot of people don't like BO and for good reason...BO the Polarizer

656 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:07:50pm

re: #631 Walter L. Newton

No... I don't think any of them are trying to do good for anyone but the special interest they are beholden to. Period. If something "good" comes out of any machination in DC, it's secondary to the real purpose.

I respectfully disagree.

657 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:08:04pm

re: #643 cliffster

This debate is polarized beyond rescue.


Not really. There are people who always think their side is looking good. Yesterday the Paulians were thrilled with Ron Paul's conspiracy theory rant but the rest of the world laughed at him. This debate does sort things out. The side that makes their case better will win. This stuff does effect public opnion.

658 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:08:16pm

re: #653 brookly red

You don't want a public option? Simply put: open the insurance Congress gets to everyone? Why ever not??

659 ShaunP  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:08:59pm

re: #652 Walter L. Newton

Guess what, if I need to take it, I will, but that will never stop me from exposing the left for what it is.

Leftists are evil until I need what they are offering...

//

660 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:09:09pm

re: #640 brookly red

so how about a national public referendum, an up or down vote?

Requires a constitutional amendment to be meaningful. Good luck with that.

661 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:09:22pm

What a flaming narcissist.

662 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:09:29pm

re: #631 Walter L. Newton

No... I don't think any of them are trying to do good for anyone but the special interest they are beholden to. Period. If something "good" comes out of any machination in DC, it's secondary to the real purpose.

You are 100% correct

663 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:09:49pm

re: #661 MandyManners

What a flaming narcissist.

What a flaming ideologue.

664 Izzyboy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:10:03pm

Obama is making sense, I don't understand... :/

665 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:10:16pm

re: #658 Diego

You don't want a public option? Simply put: open the insurance Congress gets to everyone? Why ever not??

I have traveled comrade...

666 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:10:33pm

re: #665 brookly red

And..?

667 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:10:33pm

re: #638 Obdicut

So what's your answer to fixing anything, again?

That's not a plan that actually achieves anything. You still need, then, to get good, competent people elected.

Fine... I'll add your amendment...

"I have a very simple answer, vote EVERY incumbent out of office as soon as possible, with a very public stance on why they are being voted out... and then, get good, competent people elected."

Works for me. Works for you?

668 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:11:02pm

re: #659 ShaunP

Leftists are evil until I need what they are offering...

//

Has a lefty ever cashed a government check that arrived in the mail from a righty administration?

669 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:11:06pm

re: #658 Diego

And Secret Service protection for every American!

670 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:11:15pm

re: #663 Diego

What a flaming ideologue.

Flaming retort.

671 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:11:16pm

re: #655 albusteve

a lot of people don't like BO and for good reason...BO the Polarizer

Have you felt that his behavior today has been polarizing?

672 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:11:42pm

re: #605 brookly red

it was dropped for lack of support...

It was dropped because the Republicans successfully turned it into a "catch-phrase" that meant socialism and evil to the average idiot uninformed American. Really it is about our only hope of actually reigning in the neverending 10-25% per year jumps in healthcare costs.

Nothing we do to try to fix healthcare means a damn thing if we cannot stop the explosive growth in costs that go far beyond those warranted by inflation. Medicare and Medicaid cannot be paid for if costs continue to skyrocket without end. It is really very simple, either we find a way to control costs now or we abandon our promises to all of those who paid into the system and tell them that if they get sick then they just have to die without help.

The elderly will still flood the emergency rooms and cost us untold billions so that really isn't an option I.R.L. anyway. So what do suggest we do?

Besides bitching about someone wanting to fix things that is...

673 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:11:58pm

re: #661 MandyManners

What a flaming narcissist.

Agreed. Obama is a man truly in love with the sound of his own voice. But look on the bright side: Obama is eating up Glen Beck's airtime. Anything that keeps Beck off the air isn't all bad.

674 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:12:38pm

re: #659 ShaunP

Leftists are evil until I need what they are offering...

//

Anything wrong with that? If the left wants to offer me stuff, and I honestly need it, do you have some stipulation that I have to agree with the left before I accept what they set up for the citizens of the country.

Kind of hypocritical if that is what you are suggesting.

675 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:12:42pm

re: #652 Walter L. Newton

It absolutely amazes me that you want me to take it a certain way. You're not as concerned with me taking it, you're more concerned with how I politically view the process and how my taking fits with your political proclivities.

Guess what, if I need to take it, I will, but that will never stop me from exposing the left for what it is.

Yes, how dare people try to influence each others views on a political blog. The horror. We should assume that you are "exposing the left" for simply existential reasons?

676 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:12:45pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

Biden may be there just to remind us of how important Obamas health is.
//

677 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:12:51pm

re: #660 garhighway

Requires a constitutional amendment to be meaningful. Good luck with that.

I have no desire for it I was merely responding to another poster who suggested that there was wide spread support for the public option... the only people I have ever meet that support it are already on it.

678 sagehen  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:12:58pm

re: #624 hokiepride

What promise has he held?

1) Iraq war over by 2009 - troops home - unkept
2) end to Bush era anti-terror measures - unkept
3) no lobbyists - unkept
4) close GBC - unkept
5) control deficits - unkept

"falling behind" is a nice way of saying "he failed". And McCain was right on to call him out on it


The Obameter

promises kept 96
compromise 33
promises broken 16
stalled 84
in the works 272

679 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:13:45pm

re: #649 hokiepride

exactly he has copied so many of Bush era policies after HopeNChange. McCain was right on target.

If Obama is copying Bush era policies, why isn't the GOP thanking him for it?

680 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:14:25pm

re: #671 garhighway

Have you felt that his behavior today has been polarizing?

can't comment...I've not seen much of it...but he's a rookie with an oversized mandate to match his ego...he has to do this show, he has to drag himself off the ropes and get some mojo back...that's what this conference is all about, BO and his HCR...why press so hard to pass a shitty bill? think about that

681 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:14:39pm

re: #677 brookly red

That is not correct. The polls, many of them, prove it. Look them up, please.

And you don't know anyone on it as there isn't any 'public option'. The public option isn't Medicaid or Medicare.

682 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:14:39pm

re: #250 darthstar

Where did you hear that?

683 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:15:03pm

re: #666 Diego

And..?

and I would prefer to never have to deal with government run health care... just my opinion.

684 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:15:25pm

re: #667 Walter L. Newton

No. That's not a plan. That's pablum. How do you get the good, competent people elected? That's the actual problem.

It's easy to say 'vote em all out'. That takes nothing. Figuring out how you get the good people elected-- that's the actual challenge.

685 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:15:49pm

re: #672 ausador

It was dropped because the Republicans successfully turned it into a "catch-phrase" that meant socialism and evil to the average idiot uninformed American.

Interesting.

Americans are idiots and uninformed. Yet Republicans successfully informed them that health care equals socialism.

Perhaps Dems can inform those idiots of their own ideas?

Nah, they're idiots.

686 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:15:56pm

re: #679 Surabaya Stew

If Obama is copying Bush era policies, why isn't the GOP thanking him for it?

Because they are committed to portraying him as an evil failure. Any Republican who thanked Obama for anything would face a chant of "RINO, RINO, RINO!".

687 Kragar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:15:57pm

re: #664 Izzyboy

Obama is making sense, I don't understand... :/

ITS A TRAP!

688 Izzyboy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:15:59pm

re: #680 albusteve

can't comment...I've not seen much of it...but he's a rookie with an oversized mandate to match his ego...he has to do this show, he has to drag himself off the ropes and get some mojo back...that's what this conference is all about, BO and his HCR...why press so hard to pass a shitty bill? think about that

/laugh

689 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:16:00pm

re: #240 SpaceJesus

Utah is trying to make it so that women can be charged with homicide if they have a miscarriage and it appears to have been an intentional miscarriage (ie not wearing a seatbelt, having an abusive partner, or "falling down the stairs").

hello darkages

[Link: www.sltrib.com...]

Soon to follow, laws against witchcraft.

690 recusancy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:16:01pm

re: #680 albusteve

can't comment...I've not seen much of it...but he's a rookie with an oversized mandate to match his ego...he has to do this show, he has to drag himself off the ropes and get some mojo back...that's what this conference is all about, BO and his HCR...why press so hard to pass a shitty bill? think about that

Somebody should make a cartoon out of you. It'd kind of be like Shit My Dad Says. I'd watch it.

691 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:16:07pm

re: #675 goddamnedfrank

Yes, how dare people try to influence each others views on a political blog. The horror. We should assume that you are "exposing the left" for simply existential reasons?

Yes. I have nothing else to do right now between emailing resumes and eating grapes.

692 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:16:07pm

re: #683 brookly red

I deal with it every week. I see my doctor, he tells me what's wrong and what to do about it. I've never seen anyone from the government and I never will. It works.

693 Izzyboy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:17:37pm

re: #687 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

ITS A TRAP!

Don't panic, I've cot some towels here.

694 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:17:54pm

re: #676 Rightwingconspirator

Biden may be there just to remind us of how important Obamas health is.
//

Oh snap!

695 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:17:56pm

re: #681 Diego

That is not correct. The polls, many of them, prove it. Look them up, please.

And you don't know anyone on it as there isn't any 'public option'. The public option isn't Medicaid or Medicare.

Sorry, with all due respect I ain't buying what you are selling.

696 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:18:17pm

It has happened.

SpaceJesus has positive Karma.

Maybe they will pass a health care bill.

697 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:18:21pm

re: #672 ausador

It was dropped because the Republicans successfully turned it into a "catch-phrase" that meant socialism and evil to the average idiot uninformed American. Really it is about our only hope of actually reigning in the neverending 10-25% per year jumps in healthcare costs.

Nothing we do to try to fix healthcare means a damn thing if we cannot stop the explosive growth in costs that go far beyond those warranted by inflation. Medicare and Medicaid cannot be paid for if costs continue to skyrocket without end. It is really very simple, either we find a way to control costs now or we abandon our promises to all of those who paid into the system and tell them that if they get sick then they just have to die without help.

The elderly will still flood the emergency rooms and cost us untold billions so that really isn't an option I.R.L. anyway. So what do suggest we do?

Besides bitching about someone wanting to fix things that is...

so they did...excellent strategy to kill a bad bill...even a large number of donks felt the same way...the GOP has done exactly the right thing and there are plenty of sore losers who expected the Golden Boy to walk through this thing with little opposition...he wildly miscalculated, but blame it on some phony crap all you want...he blew it from the beginning

698 hokiepride  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:18:25pm

re: #679 Surabaya Stew

You got it backwards. He should be thanking the GOP instead of criticizing them

699 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:18:37pm

re: #680 albusteve

can't comment...I've not seen much of it...but he's a rookie with an oversized mandate to match his ego...he has to do this show, he has to drag himself off the ropes and get some mojo back...that's what this conference is all about, BO and his HCR...why press so hard to pass a shitty bill? think about that

My point exactly. He's polarizing to those who haven't listened.

The IDEA of BHO might be polarizing. His actual words? Not so much. He has been the soul of reasonableness.

700 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:18:46pm

re: #696 wrenchwench

It has happened.

SpaceJesus has positive Karma.

Maybe they will pass a health care bill.

I'll take that as a sign.

701 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:18:47pm

re: #695 brookly red

I'm not selling. Polling shows that support for public option is between 55-60%. Simple as.

702 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:19:00pm

re: #684 Obdicut

No. That's not a plan. That's pablum. How do you get the good, competent people elected? That's the actual problem.

It's easy to say 'vote em all out'. That takes nothing. Figuring out how you get the good people elected-- that's the actual challenge.

Then stick with the status quo if you want, I won't.

703 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:19:47pm

Hmmmm...kind of a stern warning. If the Republicans continue to refuse to participate they're going to get steamrolled.

704 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:19:50pm

re: #701 Diego

I'm not selling. Polling shows that support for public option is between 55-60%. Simple as.

then why was it dropped from both bills? because it is popular?

705 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:19:56pm

re: #686 Dark_Falcon

Because they are committed to portraying him as an evil failure. Any Republican who thanked Obama for anything would face a chant of "RINO, RINO, RINO!".

Absolutely true, I'm afraid. While nobody expected Steele and Beck to kiss Obama's hand, their total lack of recognition and respect when he continues Bush's policies is shameful.

706 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:20:02pm

re: #657 Killgore Trout

Not really. There are people who always think their side is looking good. Yesterday the Paulians were thrilled with Ron Paul's conspiracy theory rant but the rest of the world laughed at him. This debate does sort things out. The side that makes their case better will win. This stuff does effect public opnion.

That's what I mean - the number of people who always think their side is looking good is extremely high, especially in this debate. Your optimism is nice, but I don't actually think anything is getting sorted out. I don't think 99% of people going to the polls are going to think back on today (or even watched today). And I don't think the people in the room have anyone's interest in mind, other than their own power/money grab.

707 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:20:24pm

re: #696 wrenchwench

It has happened.

SpaceJesus has positive Karma.

Maybe they will pass a health care bill.

Who put him over the top?

708 Kragar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:20:25pm

re: #696 wrenchwench

It has happened.

SpaceJesus has positive Karma.

Maybe they will pass a health care bill.

The Seventh Seal has been broken. Welcome the End of Days.

/

709 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:20:50pm

re: #704 brookly red

Because it's too difficult to have AND get GOP support, which was the goal.

Not a goal I feel is needed, or at all possible. The GOP isn't interested, at all.

710 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:20:51pm

re: #696 wrenchwench

It has happened.

SpaceJesus has positive Karma.

Maybe they will pass a health care bill.

I thought Cato said when SJ's karma goes positive it's a sign of the end times. So passing the health care bill . . .

711 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:21:07pm

re: #696 wrenchwench

Has Hell frozen over?

712 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:21:08pm

re: #684 Obdicut

No. That's not a plan. That's pablum. How do you get the good, competent people elected? That's the actual problem.

It's easy to say 'vote em all out'. That takes nothing. Figuring out how you get the good people elected-- that's the actual challenge.

the good competent people don't want anything to do with the feds...it's a black hole of corruption, pandering, and inner sanctum cliques....looks good on paper once in a while...these lifers are very good at that

713 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:21:30pm

re: #696 wrenchwench

It has happened.

SpaceJesus has positive Karma.

Maybe they will pass a health care bill.

Yes.

On a thread where he admitted to lying to people when they called their congressman and he answered the phone.

Cool.

714 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:21:37pm

re: #704 brookly red

then why was it dropped from both bills? because it is popular?

The majority of people polled want it, but their Reps don't.

715 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:21:44pm

re: #260 SpaceJesus

the difference is that this law applies to women throughout their entire pregnancy. the iowa one only applied to third trimesters i believe

One side effect of that is going to be that women are going to be reluctant to seek prenatal care, especially if they've miscarried in the past.

Undoubtedly, though, not having gone to your prenatal appointments will be used as evidence of negligent homicide.

Words cannot express how creepy and evil this is.

716 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:21:49pm

re: #709 Diego

Because it's too difficult to have AND get GOP support, which was the goal.

Not a goal I feel is needed, or at all possible. The GOP isn't interested, at all.

and neither am I.

717 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:22:18pm

re: #716 brookly red

Good for you. That is why it was called an 'option'.

718 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:22:23pm

re: #702 Walter L. Newton

That has nothing to do with what I said, Walter. In fact, you'd just get a new status quo. You'd vote them all out, and the same political machine would be in place, the system would be the same, and you'd have no reason to believe their replacements would change the status quo.

"Vote them all out" is a dumb mantra that presents no solution whatsoever.

719 wrenchwench  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:22:25pm

re: #707 Surabaya Stew

Who put him over the top?

It was a team effort.

I don't know who made the score +1. It was already +2 when I looked.

720 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:22:34pm

re: #708 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The Seventh Seal has been broken. Welcome the End of Days.

/

Don't confuse me with facts.. My mind's already cluttered enough

721 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:22:50pm

re: #691 Walter L. Newton

Yes. I have nothing else to do right now between emailing resumes and eating grapes.

Can I peel one for you?

722 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:23:00pm

That was interesting. I didn't watch the whole thing but much of what I saw was pretty informative.

723 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:23:13pm

re: #714 Stanley Sea

The majority of people polled want it, but their Reps don't.

well I guess they need new reps... this is an election year let's see what happens shall we?

724 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:23:29pm

re: #690 recusancy

Somebody should make a cartoon out of you. It'd kind of be like Shit My Dad Says. I'd watch it.

and a fine reply indeed....do you have a point?

725 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:23:41pm

re: #703 Killgore Trout

Hmmm...kind of a stern warning. If the Republicans continue to refuse to participate they're going to get steamrolled.

Well, at least he acknowledges the political pressure that make sit hard for the GOP to move. Now, what can be done to ease that pressure?

726 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:23:47pm

I was excellent. The GOP had all their talking points in a row and Obama knocked them down time after time.

727 Izzyboy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:24:09pm

re: #722 Killgore Trout

That was interesting. I didn't watch the whole thing but much of what I saw was pretty informative.

Plus I didn't understand some of it but I agree.

728 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:24:11pm

re: #725 Dark_Falcon

Well, at least he acknowledges the political pressure that make sit hard for the GOP to move. Now, what can be done to ease that pressure?

Truth panels.

729 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:24:33pm

re: #726 Diego

I was excellent. The GOP had all their talking points in a row and Obama knocked them down time after time.

I assume you were quoting Obama. You left off the quotation marks.

730 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:24:46pm

OT: I need to get a dessert together tonight and would rather not make it a big project, but want it to be more than passable. Who has favorite dessert recipes for pulling a rabbit out of a hat?

731 avanti  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:24:46pm

re: #708 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The Seventh Seal has been broken. Welcome the End of Days.

/

Welcome to positive Karma, you've come a long way.

732 Joanne  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:24:49pm

Personally, I don't understand why people are so intent on keeping insurance companies are they are. They do little more than administrate payment, at about a 10% higher cost than the government (Medicare). They do not do any innovation. They do not even pay out 80% of premiums in care.

I am much more concerned about profits of doctors, hospitals, equipment and pharma companies, and other companies which actually do something to contribute to healthcare.

Insurance companies do nothing but make payments. Their profits come from denials. They are not innovators in anything (other than ways to deny coverage).

This is not any kind of takeover of any kind of care. I would definitely support government takeover of payments to the actual providers. Ask the doctors. They always get reimbursement from Medicare. They always have to play games with insurance companies.

What am I missing?

733 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:25:09pm

re: #698 hokiepride

You got it backwards. He should be thanking the GOP instead of criticizing them

heh...true enough, for Mr Flexible Compromiser

734 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:25:20pm

re: #698 hokiepride

You got it backwards. He should be thanking the GOP instead of criticizing them

Considering all the hash words and bad feeling on all sides, Obama thanking the GOP (and vice versa) is out of the question for now. However, what's up with the total lack of recognition when Obama does something that the GOp agrees with and Obama's base is against? Methinks (and so a growing number of folks) that when Rush stated he wanted Obama to fail before he even took office, the GOP leadership collectively decided to do everything possible to make that happen, regardless of the harm that it does to the rest of us in the meantime.

735 Diego  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:25:24pm

re: #729 cliffster

'It' :P

736 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:25:35pm

re: #718 Obdicut

That has nothing to do with what I said, Walter. In fact, you'd just get a new status quo. You'd vote them all out, and the same political machine would be in place, the system would be the same, and you'd have no reason to believe their replacements would change the status quo.

"Vote them all out" is a dumb mantra that presents no solution whatsoever.

Maybe you are right. Then, what would you suggest? This is not a matter of just finding the right people, since as you say above, the same political machine would still be in place.

I don't think at this point that we can just keep clinching the wall here or there to try to keep it from falling, I think the whole wall needs to be removed and replaced with a shiny new one.

What would you do, consider that looming political machine is not going anywhere?

737 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:25:38pm

re: #730 Silvergirl

OT: I need to get a dessert together tonight and would rather not make it a big project, but want it to be more than passable. Who has favorite dessert recipes for pulling a rabbit out of a hat?

Didn't you buy a LGF cookbook?

738 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:25:59pm

re: #721 MandyManners

Can I peel one for you?

Big and thick one LOL :)

739 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:26:17pm

re: #732 JustJay

How much should a Physician make?

740 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:26:30pm

re: #731 avanti

Welcome to positive Karma, you've come a long way.

Avanti passes his crown and sash to spacejesus. :-)

741 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:26:55pm

re: #730 Silvergirl

OT: I need to get a dessert together tonight and would rather not make it a big project, but want it to be more than passable. Who has favorite dessert recipes for pulling a rabbit out of a hat?

Easy.

Coffee ice cream, Kahlua, toasted coconut.

In martini or wine glasses, pour a little Kahlua, put in some coconut, then some scoops of ice cream. Top with coconut, and pour a little more Kahlua. Put in freezer until serving.

Yum & pretty elegant!

742 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:27:22pm

re: #703 Killgore Trout

Hmmm...kind of a stern warning. If the Republicans continue to refuse to participate they're going to get steamrolled.

Al Capone said the same thing to Bugs Malone....coincidence?

743 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:27:33pm

re: #730 Silvergirl

OT: I need to get a dessert together tonight and would rather not make it a big project, but want it to be more than passable. Who has favorite dessert recipes for pulling a rabbit out of a hat?

Hassenpfeffer?

744 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:27:45pm

re: #741 Stanley Sea

Easy.

Coffee ice cream, Kahlua, toasted coconut.

In martini or wine glasses, pour a little Kahlua, put in some coconut, then some scoops of ice cream. Top with coconut, and pour a little more Kahlua. Put in freezer until serving.

Yum & pretty elegant!

Those lady-finger pastries (Clarice!) soaked in amaretto are quite nice, too.

745 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:28:00pm

re: #725 Dark_Falcon

Well, at least he acknowledges the political pressure that make sit hard for the GOP to move. Now, what can be done to ease that pressure?

The Conservative base is a problem. What is really needed is strong Republican leadership to re-educate the base about what needs to be done. The Tea Parties and Glenn Beck have a big megaphone and I'm not sure is the GOP's base is going to listen to reason at this point. Any Republican voting for any of Obama's proposals is going to draw fire.

746 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:28:12pm

re: #737 HoosierHoops

Didn't you buy a LGF cookbook?

Cheerleader.

747 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:28:21pm

re: #730 Silvergirl

OT: I need to get a dessert together tonight and would rather not make it a big project, but want it to be more than passable. Who has favorite dessert recipes for pulling a rabbit out of a hat?

strawberry shortcake....go to the market, in and out and presto! a quick favorite

748 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:28:28pm

re: #719 wrenchwench

It was a team effort.

I don't know who made the score +1. It was already +2 when I looked.

Aw shucks; should have waited a while before I posed my updings for him on this thread! SpaceJesus was at -9 when I last did it a half hour ago, so other Lizards had to have been going back to his recent comments in the meantime....

749 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:28:38pm

re: #739 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

How much should a Physician make?

what ever the market will pay.

750 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:28:39pm

re: #615 Racer X

And now Nancy just pisses all over the floor.

Nice fucking job.

Is a weak bladder a disqualifying pre-existing condition?

751 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:28:43pm

re: #730 Silvergirl

OT: I need to get a dessert together tonight and would rather not make it a big project, but want it to be more than passable. Who has favorite dessert recipes for pulling a rabbit out of a hat?

Orange sorbet with chocolate shavings.

752 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:29:07pm

re: #181 drcordell

At the end of the day it's already coming out of your pocket. Since we as a country have decided that we won't let anyone die in the gutter because they cannot pay for medical care.

When someone walks into the ER deathly ill and has no insurance, they receive treatment anyway. When they cannot pay, the hospital ends up eating the cost themselves. And by "eating the cost" I mean raising their prices for paying customers (read: you).

So the question is, how do you want to pay for the healthcare you are already providing to those without insurance? Do you want to pay for their $7,000 ER bill when they come down with pneumonia and call 911? Or do you want to help subsidize their health insurance, so they can afford to pay for a $200 doctors office visit when their flu hasn't yet turned to pneumonia?

The choice is yours. But remember that either way the cost is being passed along to you.

I'm just quoting this whole thing, because it's pretty much exactly my position stated clearly.

753 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:29:53pm

re: #741 Stanley Sea

Easy.

Coffee ice cream, Kahlua, toasted coconut.

In martini or wine glasses, pour a little Kahlua, put in some coconut, then some scoops of ice cream. Top with coconut, and pour a little more Kahlua. Put in freezer until serving.

Yum & pretty elegant!

Thanks. That would look elegant. I don't like the taste of coffee (major weirdo here, I know) so it would work for everyone but me. I want to enjoy too!

754 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:30:08pm

re: #730 Silvergirl

Tell everyone they got fat over the winter and hand each of them a carrot.

Albusteve recommends Little Debbies.
/

755 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:30:22pm

re: #347 Walter L. Newton

Can't please a leftist if you try... take public money, they yell, don't want it, they yell... wonderful.

I think that if you need it you should make use of whatever publically funded program will serve your needs.

The assumption that those who want you to have it have never fended for themselves, or could not understand why you would try to avoid taking such aid is insulting.

756 Slap  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:30:31pm

re: #730 Silvergirl

Consider this: we haven't tried it yet, but we saw it prepared, and it's in our dessert recipe hopper:

Chocolate! Yum!

And it is EASY.

757 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:30:34pm

re: #736 Walter L. Newton

Real political change is long, arduous, and takes low-level efforts at awareness, turn out the vote, civic education, and the rest. There is no magic bullet, there is no quick solution. Transparency in government is one of the key things, as is actually tracking what politicians do and say they'll do.

However, the recent Supreme Court ruling on campaign finance is going to make this difficult.

We can only progress when we hold our leadership accountable, and a large part of that involves educating the public so that they can do that. That's the main thing we're missing right now.

758 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:30:38pm

re: #751 MandyManners

Orange sorbet with chocolate shavings.

Mmm!

759 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:30:59pm

re: #750 negativ

Is a weak bladder a disqualifying pre-existing condition?

Depends.

760 Kragar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:31:08pm

re: #753 Silvergirl

Thanks. That would look elegant. I don't like the taste of coffee (major weirdo here, I know) so it would work for everyone but me. I want to enjoy too!

Nothing wrong with coffee that pouring it down the drain and getting a real drink can't fix.

761 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:31:12pm

re: #745 Killgore Trout

The Conservative base is a problem. What is really needed is strong Republican leadership to re-educate the base about what needs to be done. The Tea Parties and Glenn Beck have a big megaphone and I'm not sure is the GOP's base is going to listen to reason at this point. Any Republican voting for any of Obama's proposals is going to draw fire.

It'll take a while for that to happen. To be honest, right now what is needed is a chameleon, someone who can talk like the Tea Partry crowd enough to keep them onside, but is sane enough to be able to turn on Beck and co. once he has enough influence to fight them.

762 sagehen  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:31:15pm

re: #730 Silvergirl

OT: I need to get a dessert together tonight and would rather not make it a big project, but want it to be more than passable. Who has favorite dessert recipes for pulling a rabbit out of a hat?

Berries and grapes. Easiest thing ever.

763 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:31:52pm

re: #761 Dark_Falcon

I think what you're going to get is someone who's a chameleon, but of the opposite kind.

764 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:31:59pm

re: #756 Slap

Consider this: we haven't tried it yet, but we saw it prepared, and it's in our dessert recipe hopper:

Chocolate! Yum!

And it is EASY.

Looks fabulous! Is there any danger of the egg cooking too fast and curdling?

765 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:32:01pm

re: #752 WindUpBird

I'm just quoting this whole thing, because it's pretty much exactly my position stated clearly.

I thinks it's nearly everyone's position

766 Izzyboy  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:32:09pm

re: #761 Dark_Falcon

It'll take a while for that to happen. To be honest, right now what is needed is a chameleon, someone who can talk like the Tea Partry crowd enough to keep them onside, but is sane enough to be able to turn on Beck and co. once he has enough influence to fight them.

A "lend me your ears" guy eh?

767 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:32:17pm

re: #685 Racer X

Interesting.

Americans are idiots and uninformed. Yet Republicans successfully informed them that health care equals socialism.

Perhaps Dems can inform those idiots of their own ideas?

Nah, they're idiots.

Unfortunatly the democrats are still not even close to the republican machine in broadcasting a uniform message. When the news interviews 10 different democrats about healthcare reform they all have a completly different speech with various talking points. When the press interviews 10 republicans they all say exactly the same thing with exactly the same "sound-bite catch-phrases."

It shows in the polls when people are against "Obama-care" but then are overwhelmingly for each individual thing that makes up the Presidents reform package. The average American is no where near as politically informed as the average poster here. They listen to the sound bites on the news and nod their heads in agreement with the complete lies they are told.

The Republicans so far are much better and more prolific liars than the Democrats, not that I'm rooting for the democrats to catch up or anything...

768 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:32:29pm

re: #749 brookly red

Assuming of course that all segments of the market have uniform ability to choose their price.

769 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:32:36pm

re: #762 sagehen

Berries and grapes. Easiest thing ever.

And good for you.

770 Gus  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:32:41pm

Religious Right Now Exporting Its Anti-Marriage Equality Abroad
Submitted by Kyle on February 25, 2010 - 3:44pm

By now, we are all used to out-of-state Religious Right groups descending on places like Maine, Washington, DC, and elsewhere in order to set up shop in their nonstop effort to fight marriage equality ... but I have to admit that I never expected them to start exporting their efforts abroad.

But here they are, setting their sights on now fighting marriage equality in Mexico:

In response to a move to institute same-sex marriage in the Federal District which includes Mexico City (on March 4), more than 120 pro-family/pro-life leaders from 35 countries have signed the "World Congress of Families Leadership Petition To Save Marriage In Mexico City."

U.S. signers (signing as individuals) include: Gary Bauer (American Values), Allan Carlson (World Congress of Families), Tom DeLay (former Majority Leader, U.S. House of Representatives), Joseph Meaney (Human Life International), Tony Perkins (Family Research Council), Michele Velasco (Priests for Life), Don Wildmon (American Family Association), Wendy Wright (Concerned Women for America), Maggie Gallagher (National Organization for Marriage), Dr. Paige Patterson (Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary),Yuri Mantilla (Focus on the Family) and Dr. Jerry Newcombe (Coral Ridge Ministries).

771 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:32:49pm

re: #375 darthstar

Some Orthopedic Surgeon from Wyoming is claiming that everyone in America that you talk to believes this is all bad and everyone will DIE!!!1!

That may well be true of everyone he has talked to. But he's an orthopedic surgeon from Wyoming.

772 ShaunP  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:33:03pm

re: #674 Walter L. Newton

Anything wrong with that? If the left wants to offer me stuff, and I honestly need it, do you have some stipulation that I have to agree with the left before I accept what they set up for the citizens of the country.

Kind of hypocritical if that is what you are suggesting.

No stipulation, I actually want people to use the services available to them. I do think it's hypocritical that people can't see the benefit before they need it themselves though...

Put more bluntly; I don't want to pay for your services, but have no problem with you paying for mine...

773 MandyManners  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:33:06pm

re: #758 Silvergirl

It's quick and easy. So are strawberries dipped in chocolate. Or, bananas.

774 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:33:21pm

re: #739 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

How much should a Physician make?

In countries with Socialized medicine, physicians make the same amount depending on their schedule and specialties. I can tell you that in the UK (from my Aunt who is a GP for the NHS), she makes 45,000 quid per year, working 3/4 time (that is, 33 1/4 hours a week) and she has 1,500 patients under her care! No way that happens here....

775 Slap  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:33:58pm

re: #764 Silvergirl

As long as you pour slowly (if you're hesitant, add the milk a half-cup at a time to temper things, and you'll be fine).

776 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:34:05pm

re: #768 negativ

Assuming of course that all segments of the market have uniform ability to choose their price.

exactly, so all we need to do is to keep the government out of the way and water will seek it's own level.

777 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:34:10pm

re: #749 brookly red

what ever the market will pay.

and if the market means that there is a massive scarcity of general practicioners, because the market will pay way way more for a plastic surgeon or a specialist than a GP?

The "market" whe it comes to health care has been bad for America, and bad for the health of America. Health care is not a widget. it's not a car, or a TV set.

778 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:34:24pm

re: #754 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Tell everyone they got fat over the winter and hand each of them a carrot.

Albusteve recommends Little Debbies.
/

*spit take*
Bag of carrots on the shopping list.

779 Gus  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:34:43pm

Fischer: Sea World Death Due To West's Failure to Follow Scripture
Submitted by Kyle on February 25, 2010 - 10:39am

Sometimes I wonder if the American Family Association's Bryan Fischer ultimate goal is just to make his organization look foolish by writing pieces like this one claiming that the death of a trainer at Sea World yesterday was the result of a failure to abide by Biblical mandates.

Fischer cites this article noting that the whale in question was considered particularly dangerous and had a history of violent incidents to claim that the death can be chalked up to "animal rights insanity and to the ongoing failure of the West to take counsel on practical matters from the Scripture:

What about the term "killer whale" do SeaWorld officials not understand?

If the counsel of the Judeo-Christian tradition had been followed, Tillikum would have been put out of everyone's misery back in 1991 and would not have had the opportunity to claim two more human lives....

780 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:34:44pm

re: #767 ausador

It's interesting. I hear this sort of thing all the time - the Republicans have a solid message. They have a unified message. That's why they are able to trick people into believing certain things.

But then, the same people - the Republicans are stratified. Paul, Tea parties, Religious Right - they just can't possibly get along. To diverse a group.

Weird.

781 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:36:01pm

re: #774 Surabaya Stew

How much is that in quatloos?

Dollars?

782 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:36:14pm

re: #747 albusteve

strawberry shortcake...go to the market, in and out and presto! a quick favorite

A classic, too. This gets serious consideration, though our Oregon strawberries aren't in season yet and those are my all-time fave, and really worth waiting for.

783 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:36:28pm

re: #774 Surabaya Stew

In countries with Socialized medicine, physicians make the same amount depending on their schedule and specialties. I can tell you that in the UK (from my Aunt who is a GP for the NHS), she makes 45,000 quid per year, working 3/4 time (that is, 33 1/4 hours a week) and she has 1,500 patients under her care! No way that happens here...

I was listening to an NPR interview with a German doctor who came to the states because he could make much more money. He felt bad about it, but in the end, he worked hard to become a doctor, and felt that there was nothing wrong in trying to get compensated for it.

This was NPR.

784 Gus  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:36:35pm

Slideshow: Anti-Gay Protests In Uganda
Josh Marshall %P% February 25, 2010, 3:10PM

Anti-gay protests broke out recently in Uganda in the wake of a controversy over a proposed law that would mandate life imprisonment for gay sex and even the death penalty.

785 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:36:45pm

re: #777 WindUpBird

and if the market means that there is a massive scarcity of general practicioners, because the market will pay way way more for a plastic surgeon or a specialist than a GP?

The "market" whe it comes to health care has been bad for America, and bad for the health of America. Health care is not a widget. it's not a car, or a TV set.

exactly, we should be creating incentives for our best & brightest to become GPs and not trying to draft them.

786 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:37:07pm

re: #780 cliffster

It's interesting. I hear this sort of thing all the time - the Republicans have a solid message. They have a unified message. That's why they are able to trick people into believing certain things.

But then, the same people - the Republicans are stratified. Paul, Tea parties, Religious Right - they just can't possibly get along. To diverse a group.

Weird.

A platoon of fractured and fracturing factions, all in lock-step. Yep, this is the GOP currently described.

And it's a damned shame that the ignorant benighted masses - the ones who elected the President - are so easily gulled by the GOP; if only they'd listen!

787 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:37:27pm

re: #781 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

How much is that in quatloos?

Dollars?

About $69,000. Pretty sure that doctors here make more than that.

788 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:37:32pm

re: #785 brookly red

So what do you feel about the fee-for-service model we currently have that makes being a GP the booby prize? What would you rather see?

789 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:38:34pm

re: #788 Obdicut

So what do you feel about the fee-for-service model we currently have that makes being a GP the booby prize? What would you rather see?

2 words, free market.

790 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:38:41pm

re: #787 ArchangelMichael

About $69,000. Pretty sure that doctors here make more than that.

Crap! That won't even make a down payment for an OB's malpractice insurance here.

How about quatloos?

791 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:39:17pm

re: #783 cliffster

I was listening to an NPR interview with a German doctor who came to the states because he could make much more money. He felt bad about it, but in the end, he worked hard to become a doctor, and felt that there was nothing wrong in trying to get compensated for it.

This was NPR.

An unapologetic Danny Williams (Premier of Newfoundland) says he was aware his trip to the United States for heart surgery earlier this month would spark outcry, but he concluded his personal health trumped any public fallout over the controversial decision.

"I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics."

792 windsagio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:39:31pm

re: #786 Guanxi88

Sarcasm aside, The difference is that the GOP shows amazing congressional discipline and unity, regardless of what the voters do. On the ground level its all populist madness, but up on the hill its a well-oiled machine.

The dems on the other hand, are waaaaay too focused on actually doing things good for their districts. Doesn't make for good use of power :p

793 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:39:54pm

OT... sorry...


FREE WILLY!

794 SixDegrees  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:40:02pm

re: #779 Gus 802

Fischer: Sea World Death Due To West's Failure to Follow Scripture
Submitted by Kyle on February 25, 2010 - 10:39am

I really hope Tillikum turns out to be gay.

795 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:40:03pm

re: #789 brookly red

That doesn't answer the question at all, dude. Fee-for-service is free market. So would be, for example, salaried positions for doctors. Your response makes no sense.

If you don't know what the fee-for-service thingy is, read the Gawande article I linked above, which explains it well.

796 Joanne  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:40:44pm

re: #739 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

How much should a Physician make?

That's not for me to determine. But I would rather $$ go to them, those who actually impact healthCARE.

797 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:41:10pm

re: #764 Silvergirl

Looks fabulous! Is there any danger of the egg cooking too fast and curdling?


Robert Redford pie
1 cup flour
1/2 cup butter
pecans finely chopped
8 oz cream cheese
1 cup powdered sugar
12 oz cool whip
1 large package of instant chocolate pudding
3 cups of cold milk

mix together flour, butter and pecans
press into bottom of 9x13 inch pan
bake at 350 degrees for 20 minutes and cool
mix cream cheese, powdered sugar and 1/2 of cool whip
spread over first layer when cool
spread chocolate pudding over is mixure, then spread remaining 1/2 of cool whip on top.. You can add a shaved chocolate bar for a pretty top

798 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:41:50pm

re: #782 Silvergirl

A classic, too. This gets serious consideration, though our Oregon strawberries aren't in season yet and those are my all-time fave, and really worth waiting for.

my market went nuts with SB SC a week or so back....maybe a valentines thing I dunno...CA berries were in and I put them over Bisquick shortcake.....mmmm!

799 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:41:54pm

re: #781 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

How much is that in quatloos?

Dollars?

When she was visiting my family in New York in early 2008, 45,000 pounds was $90,000. Now its more like $70,000 due to the declining Pound relative to the Dollar. Which explains why she was able to make the trip when she did but can't afford to now. Incidentally, my GP Aunt didn't feel that she was underpaid at all by British standards, but was convinced that doctors in the USA were vastly overpaid!

800 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:42:02pm

re: #796 JustJay

Dude... totally read your post wrong.

My bad.

801 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:42:20pm

I have a question, a kind of poll for us here. If we assume a constitutional amendment would be necessary to pass a public option or single payer with mandates-And we assume from the poll above most of us want it- Should we shelve the bill and go for broke? Knowing that will take a year or two or three?

I'll answer myself first-I think medical providers should be regulated like public utilities, with all due regulation and oversight. So no I'd take what is in the current bill over "going for broke" in a public option attempt.

803 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:43:00pm

re: #796 JustJay

That's not for me to determine. But I would rather $$ go to them, those who actually impact healthCARE.

It would be interesting to see what percentage of health care dollars actually go to doctors. I would suspect it is a fairly low percentage.

804 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:43:05pm

re: #792 windsagio

Sarcasm aside, The difference is that the GOP shows amazing congressional discipline and unity, regardless of what the voters do. On the ground level its all populist madness, but up on the hill its a well-oiled machine.

The dems on the other hand, are waaay too focused on actually doing things good for their districts. Doesn't make for good use of power :p

The GOP are bunch of slimy bastards all working together, and the Dems are saints, swimming upstream but trying to help humanity against all odds. That's rich.

805 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:43:06pm

re: #799 Surabaya Stew

When she was visiting my family in New York in early 2008, 45,000 pounds was $90,000. Now its more like $70,000 due to the declining Pound relative to the Dollar. Which explains why she was able to make the trip when she did but can't afford to now. Incidentally, my GP Aunt didn't feel that she was underpaid at all by British standards, but was convinced that doctors in the USA were vastly overpaid!

OF COURSE SHE DID! THEY MADE MORE THAN HER!

That seems to be the way it works anymore.

806 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:43:16pm

re: #795 Obdicut

That doesn't answer the question at all, dude. Fee-for-service is free market. So would be, for example, salaried positions for doctors. Your response makes no sense.

If you don't know what the fee-for-service thingy is, read the Gawande article I linked above, which explains it well.

I know what the fee-for-service thingy is comrade, why would a self employed doctor be salaried? It is called a private practice for a reason... if you want you can go to the free clinic you get what you pay for.

807 sagehen  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:43:26pm

re: #739 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

How much should a Physician make?

4 years of college.
4 years of med school.
1 year internship.
2-3 years residency.

All of the above at long hours and considerable expense.
Age 30 when they earn their very first fee.

To get the best people into a field with those drawbacks -- I'm not at all bothered that most of them expect to earn, every year thereafter, at least 10x more than the average high school graduate.

808 windsagio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:43:27pm

re: #801 Rightwingconspirator

no, its too easy to block an amendment. It'd be waaay easier to let something smaller through congress and work its way up over time.

809 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:43:47pm

re: #793 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

OT... sorry...

FREE WILLY!

Heh heh heh.... it really cracks the British up to no end that we Yanks Made a kids movies about a friendly Orca with that name!

810 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:44:40pm

re: #804 cliffster

The GOP are bunch of slimy bastards all working together, and the Dems are saints, swimming upstream but trying to help humanity against all odds. That's rich.

ahaha!...pay no attention

811 windsagio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:44:51pm

re: #804 cliffster

Does the GOP show more party unity in the house and senate? >>

812 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:44:54pm

re: #809 Surabaya Stew

DICK JOKE TIME!

813 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:44:59pm

re: #780 cliffster

It's interesting. I hear this sort of thing all the time - the Republicans have a solid message. They have a unified message. That's why they are able to trick people into believing certain things.

But then, the same people - the Republicans are stratified. Paul, Tea parties, Religious Right - they just can't possibly get along. To diverse a group.

Weird.

Uhh...perhaps you have noticed that all the republicans vote as a single block, every single one of them, and have done so since Bush I except for one or two votes here or there? When someone does cross the party line they are punished and penalized.

The same is not true of the Dems who are in reality split into at least three major factions that I am aware of.

You throw out Paul and the tea baggers followed by the R.R. as if they were not all the same thing in the end, they are. The only major arguments those groups have is with the party leaders who still want to maintain a sane enough stance to try to keep some moderate voters on board.

814 Gus  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:44:59pm

re: #791 Walter L. Newton

An unapologetic Danny Williams (Premier of Newfoundland) says he was aware his trip to the United States for heart surgery earlier this month would spark outcry, but he concluded his personal health trumped any public fallout over the controversial decision.

"I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics."

Danny Williams is a billionaire. If needed he could have traveled to anywhere around the world to get the best care he required and could afford. His surgeon, Dr. Joseph Lamelas, happens to be one of the best and has the lowest morbidity rates in Florida and in the United States. I doubt that anyone with health insurance can have access to Dr. Joseph Lamelas.

815 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:45:26pm

re: #806 brookly red

I know what the fee-for-service thingy is comrade, why would a self employed doctor be salaried? It is called a private practice for a reason... if you want you can go to the free clinic you get what you pay for.

Again, that doesn't make any sense as a response. Plenty of doctors have started private practices together and paid salaries to themselves-- something that Gawande talks about in his article.

Why on earth did you call me 'comrade'?

816 Joanne  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:46:19pm

re: #800 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Dude... totally read your post wrong.

My bad.

Duddette. :-) No prob!

817 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:46:23pm

re: #811 windsagio

Does the GOP show more party unity in the house and senate? >>

did it ever occur to that maybe the HCR bills are bad, and should not pass?

818 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:46:45pm

re: #816 JustJay

rawr...

819 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:47:07pm

re: #805 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

OF COURSE SHE DID! THEY MADE MORE THAN HER!

That seems to be the way it works anymore.

I didn't get the impression that she was jealous; rather she felt that we were being taken by a ride by our medical system. Seeing how the NHS and private medical services take up less than 10% of British GDP and more than 16% of our GDP, I think she had a valid point.

820 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:47:09pm

re: #817 albusteve

did it ever occur to that maybe the HCR bills are bad, and should not pass?

The old "answer a question with a question" trick.

821 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:47:36pm

re: #812 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

DICK JOKE TIME!

Not tonight, I have a headache....

822 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:47:38pm

re: #814 Gus 802

Danny Williams is a billionaire. If needed he could have traveled to anywhere around the world to get the best care he required and could afford. His surgeon, Dr. Joseph Lamelas, happens to be one of the best and has the lowest morbidity rates in Florida and in the United States. I doubt that anyone with health insurance can have access to Dr. Joseph Lamelas.

Class inequity through insurance companies is fine, not important, and just the way things are.

Class inequity in a country with socialized medicine is EEEEVIL. Unspeakable eeevil.

823 Kruk  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:47:40pm

re: #809 Surabaya Stew

Heh heh heh... it really cracks the British up to no end that we Yanks Made a kids movies about a friendly Orca with that name!

Not as much as it amused us that you called your President Slick Willy....

824 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:47:52pm

re: #820 garhighway

The old "answer a question with a question" trick.

it's the answer to the question Einstein

825 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:48:06pm

re: #814 Gus 802

Danny Williams is a billionaire. If needed he could have traveled to anywhere around the world to get the best care he required and could afford. His surgeon, Dr. Joseph Lamelas, happens to be one of the best and has the lowest morbidity rates in Florida and in the United States. I doubt that anyone with health insurance can have access to Dr. Joseph Lamelas.

Gee... I must have missed your point?

826 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:48:08pm

re: #815 Obdicut

Again, that doesn't make any sense as a response. Plenty of doctors have started private practices together and paid salaries to themselves-- something that Gawande talks about in his article.

Why on earth did you call me 'comrade'?

What is your freakin point? do you want to regulate the compensation of health care providers? or anyone else for that matter? or do I just misread you?

827 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:48:24pm

I worked in a link to Yesica Toscanini in a perfectly legitimate way up-thread, and I got no love from anyone about it. Fuck all yall.

828 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:48:26pm

re: #821 Surabaya Stew

Okay! Here you go!

829 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:48:32pm

re: #792 windsagio

Sarcasm aside, The difference is that the GOP shows amazing congressional discipline and unity, regardless of what the voters do. On the ground level its all populist madness, but up on the hill its a well-oiled machine.

The dems on the other hand, are waaay too focused on actually doing things good for their districts. Doesn't make for good use of power :p

Amazing, huh? The way they so cleverly dupe their voters, by cunningly voting as they promised they would.

If only they'd adopt the Dem ways - and tax the ever-loving shit outta people they don't like and who live in other districts to send the cash back home to their client class constituents.

830 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:49:02pm

re: #797 HoosierHoops

Robert Redford pie

I'm putting the ingredients for this on the list, though I won't make it tonight. It may not be as good without Robert Redford, but you can't lose with chocolate.

831 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:49:08pm

re: #823 Kruk

Not as much as it amused us that you called your President Slick Willy...

Wasn't far from the truth, no?
;-)

832 Gus  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:49:12pm

re: #822 SanFranciscoZionist

Class inequity through insurance companies is fine, not important, and just the way things are.

Class inequity in a country with socialized medicine is EEEVIL. Unspeakable eeevil.

I think a more potent point would be made if your run of the mill middle class John Doe came over from Canada and went to get heart surgery performed by the world class Dr. Joseph Lamelas. Won't happen.

833 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:49:13pm

re: #815 Obdicut

Why on earth did you call me 'comrade'?

"Perhaps you have heard Russian epic of Cinderella? If shoe fits, wear it!"

/

834 windsagio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:50:04pm

re: #824 albusteve

I was gonna ignore the rhetorical quesiton, but since you put it that way ;)

If the pattern only held for healthcare you might have a point.

Unfortunately, in what Guanxi and Cliffster were talking about, its a general pattern.

To be honest I don't even know if its bad or not (super-strong party discipline that is).

835 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:50:18pm

re: #828 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My **** is so big; my urologist has a Sherpa.

836 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:50:23pm

re: #826 brookly red

What is your freakin point? do you want to regulate the compensation of health care providers? or anyone else for that matter? or do I just misread you?

You correctly said that we have a shortage of GPs/primary care doctors. The reason we have a shortage is because of the fee-for-service payment scheme that is almost universal in the US. I'm asking you if you think the solution to the problem is moving to a different compensation system.

For some reason, you're treating this as a hostile attack. It has nothing to do with the free market versus regulation, or anything like that.

837 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:50:33pm

re: #832 Gus 802

I think a more potent point would be made if your run of the mill middle class John Doe came over from Canada and went to get heart surgery performed by the world class Dr. Joseph Lamelas. Won't happen.

It's odd, though, that there werent' any world-class surgeons in Canada for him to visit.

838 Joanne  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:50:45pm

re: #801 Rightwingconspirator

I have a question, a kind of poll for us here. If we assume a constitutional amendment would be necessary to pass a public option or single payer with mandates-And we assume from the poll above most of us want it- Should we shelve the bill and go for broke? Knowing that will take a year or two or three?

I'll answer myself first-I think medical providers should be regulated like public utilities, with all due regulation and oversight. So no I'd take what is in the current bill over "going for broke" in a public option attempt.

No. My boyfriend is Canadian and we talk about how their healthcare system originally started. They did it incrementally. The "father" of their system (Keifer Sutherland's grandfather) was recently voted the most important Canadian in history. Their system is very good. Lots of misinformation about their system which frustrates them to no end.

Our system is so expensive and so restrictive (to people actually getting care) it's ridiculous. I'll take incremental or balls to the walls. Whatever. We need help out here. (And I make good money. I can only imagine people of lesser means - couple that with children and it comes down to shelter/food/gas/living expenses or healthcare. Our nation is too great for that. When almost every other industrialized nation bests us in something as important as healthcare, something is seriously wrong.

839 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:50:47pm

re: #783 cliffster

I was listening to an NPR interview with a German doctor who came to the states because he could make much more money. He felt bad about it, but in the end, he worked hard to become a doctor, and felt that there was nothing wrong in trying to get compensated for it.

This was NPR.

Can't blame anybody for wanting to legally better their economic situation.

840 windsagio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:50:49pm

re: #829 Guanxi88

c'mon, the second part was a joke. I hate doing sarc tags unless they're absolutely necessary :p

841 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:51:32pm

re: #840 windsagio

c'mon, the second part was a joke. I hate doing sarc tags unless they're absolutely necessary :p

SO was mine - everybody's covered in the stuff - and we all have a good time with it.

842 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:51:57pm

re: #833 ArchangelMichael

"Perhaps you have heard Russian epic of Cinderella? If shoe fits, wear it!"

/

Upding for the Star Trek VI quote.

843 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:52:11pm

re: #822 SanFranciscoZionist

Class inequity through insurance companies is fine, not important, and just the way things are.

Class inequity in a country with socialized medicine is EEEVIL. Unspeakable eeevil.

unless of course you are a member of the ruling elite... I still don't think any bill presented applies to congress, but hey I could be wrong...

844 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:52:14pm

re: #828 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Okay! Here you go!

Thanks for nothing, now I really have a headache!
/

845 Gus  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:52:44pm

re: #837 Guanxi88

It's odd, though, that there werent' any world-class surgeons in Canada for him to visit.

That can be true or untrue. I am not familiar with heart surgeons let alone those in Canada. I think it's also important to add that whatever health care reform is being proposed it's not to make the one the United States like that in Canada or the NHS. That's just a scare tactic from those that oppose HCR.

846 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:53:04pm

re: #824 albusteve

Hmmm.

The question was : "Does the GOP show more party unity in the house and senate? "


Your answer was: "Did it ever occur to that maybe the HCR bills are bad, and should not pass?"

It didn't seem to me that the answer was an answer (unless we're playing by Jeopardy rules, where all answers have to be phrased in the form of a question), and that if it was, it wasn't answering the question asked. Unless you had added to the question some sort of invisible parenthetical qualification that it was only talking about HCR. I didn't read it that way.

But that's just me.

847 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:53:08pm

re: #825 Walter L. Newton

Gee... I must have missed your point?

Everyone should get the same care. Not just the rich.

Yeah, like that will ever happen. Rich people get rich for a reason.

848 windsagio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:53:19pm

re: #841 Guanxi88

then we're all cool :p

Do ya think the overwhelming party discipline is a good or bad thing? (altho I admit it seems to be changing some)

849 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:53:41pm

re: #845 Gus 802

That can be true or untrue. I am not familiar with heart surgeons let alone those in Canada. I think it's also important to add that whatever health care reform is being proposed it's not to make the one the United States like that in Canada or the NHS. That's just a scare tactic from those that oppose HCR.

Again, I'd imagine, if he's got the cash-ola to pay out to the guy he visited, that, unless he wanted a little R&R in Florida, he, of all Canadians, might have been able to get a good recommendation.

850 windsagio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:54:22pm

re: #847 Racer X

yeah, being in a rich family :p

851 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:54:38pm

re: #847 Racer X

Everyone should get the same care. Not just the rich.

Yeah, like that will ever happen. Rich people get rich for a reason.

/do you think Mr. Wood's "sex addiction" issue would be covered by a public option?

852 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:54:41pm

re: #848 windsagio

then we're all cool :p

Do ya think the overwhelming party discipline is a good or bad thing? (altho I admit it seems to be changing some)

Party discipline sucks ass. Period.

That's for totalitarians, not for Americans. I want a wide range in every party, to keep the goof-balls - like me - in line and in check.

853 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:54:42pm

re: #847 Racer X

I don't know whether to ding that or not.

854 Gus  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:54:48pm

re: #847 Racer X

Everyone should get the same care. Not just the rich.

Yeah, like that will ever happen. Rich people get rich for a reason.

That's not the point. The point is that Danny Williams is not an example to compare health care policy for an individual worth billions to the health care policy for the American population as a whole.

855 Joanne  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:55:10pm

re: #803 garhighway

It would be interesting to see what percentage of health care dollars actually go to doctors. I would suspect it is a fairly low percentage.

The ones who should get the lions share (IMHO) are the ones getting short changed. Hospitals need $ for equipment. Doctors need to make enough money to live well (and pay off their sky high school debt). Companies should have money to reinvest into R&D (the current method of large companies buying small ones as the drugs are in FDA trials does not seem the best model for innovation. We need R&D!)

856 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:55:15pm

re: #838 JustJay

Thanks, that's a helpful post. I desperately need the pre exisiting condition thing worked out, my dear wife has a childhood ailment, and can't get it as an individual. She is unemployed. Complicating a job search by only taking jobs with medical coverage is hardly an option in a economy like this.

857 windsagio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:55:17pm

re: #852 Guanxi88

I like the cut of your jib!

858 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:56:15pm

re: #857 windsagio

I like the cut of your jib!

I've got a pretty good idea of my own limitations, and I'm just vain enough to imagine that there's plenty of screwballs like me across the political spectrum. I don't trust any of 'em, myself included

859 SixDegrees  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:56:26pm

re: #843 brookly red

unless of course you are a member of the ruling elite... I still don't think any bill presented applies to congress, but hey I could be wrong...

They're exempted from any of the plans they are currently proposing, and will keep their existing smorgasbord of special coverage.

I suspect they realize that being required to adopt the plans they propose would inflate the cost of those plans so much that the cost would be laughably impossible to cover.

They will almost certainly exempt their own pay from the taxes that will be required to fund what they're proposing, as well.

860 Kragar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:56:51pm

re: #850 windsagio

yeah, being in a rich family :p

you're a rich girl and it's gone to far
Cause you know it don't matter anyway
You can rely on the old man's money

861 sagehen  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:57:20pm

re: #795 Obdicut

That doesn't answer the question at all, dude. Fee-for-service is free market. So would be, for example, salaried positions for doctors. Your response makes no sense.

If you don't know what the fee-for-service thingy is, read the Gawande article I linked above, which explains it well.

It's not really a "free market" when the insurance company or HMO that carries 2/3 of the insured people within a 50-mile radius announces what fee they've decided they'll pay for what service, take it or leave it -- and any doctor or hospital who doesn't take it is stricken from the acceptable providers list. And then the HMO comes back two years later to announce they're cutting their reimbursement by 20%. And again two years after that.

862 solomonpanting  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:57:20pm

re: #851 brookly red

/do you think Mr. Wood's "sex addiction" issue would be covered by a public option?

My guess is the women preferred his private coverage.

863 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:57:51pm

re: #859 SixDegrees

They're exempted from any of the plans they are currently proposing, and will keep their existing smorgasbord of special coverage.

I suspect they realize that being required to adopt the plans they propose would inflate the cost of those plans so much that the cost would be laughably impossible to cover.

They will almost certainly exempt their own pay from the taxes that will be required to fund what they're proposing, as well.

I love that Canadian heart surgery thing... that for me says it all.

864 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:57:54pm

Wow, pushing 900 comments and still amazingly on point. Other than the Robert Redford Cake sidethread, whatever.

865 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:58:41pm

re: #864 cliffster

There's cake?

866 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:58:47pm

re: #862 solomonpanting

My guess is the women preferred his private coverage.

Not gonna touch that line. :(

867 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:59:05pm

re: #838 JustJay
re: #808 windsagio

So I have zero support spoken for holding out for a public option. Incremental will do just fine. Not a scientific poll by any means.

868 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:59:22pm

re: #856 Rightwingconspirator

Thanks, that's a helpful post. I desperately need the pre exisiting condition thing worked out, my dear wife has a childhood ailment, and can't get it as an individual. She is unemployed. Complicating a job search by only taking jobs with medical coverage is hardly an option in a economy like this.

Best of luck working that out. I've been there. My wife having breast cancer in her medical history was a very complicating thing when it comes to job hunting.

It would be interesting to know if there are any decent stats on how much of a drag on the economy the pre-existing condition problem is: people who can't change jobs, relocate or otherwise better themselves because it would muck up their coverage. I suspect it is significant, but I don't know that.

869 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:59:25pm

re: #864 cliffster

Wow, pushing 900 comments and still amazingly on point. Other than the Robert Redford Cake sidethread, whatever.

Hey! She wanted a desert recipe!
Don't make me come over there mister!
*wink*

870 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:59:29pm

re: #865 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

There's cake?

/Yes! and soon enough you will be told to eat it!

871 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:59:57pm

re: #861 sagehen

Yeah, I just meant in terms of how hospitals and doctors' practices arrange their pay, it's free market; where it touches the insurance companies, it isn't.

872 Kruk  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 2:59:59pm

re: #862 solomonpanting

My guess is the women preferred his private coverage.

Really? I thought he was trying to make his coverage as universal as possible.

873 sagehen  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:00:21pm

re: #799 Surabaya Stew

Incidentally, my GP Aunt didn't feel that she was underpaid at all by British standards, but was convinced that doctors in the USA were vastly overpaid!

Your British GP aunt didn't spend $300,000 for her education, either.

874 Kragar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:00:43pm

re: #865 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

There's cake?

The cake is a lie.

875 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:01:11pm

re: #847 Racer X

Everyone should get the same care. Not just the rich.

Yeah, like that will ever happen. Rich people get rich for a reason.

Do you realize how untenable that position is? Today, we have treatments you never could have imagined decades ago. On one hand, we think everyone should get these treatments. On the other hand, we say we have to bring down the cost of medicine. It just doesn't work. The only way to level it is to make it so that nobody gets access to the best treatments - tell rich people they can't have the coverage they want even though they can afford it.

876 Silvergirl  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:01:18pm

re: #869 HoosierHoops

Hey! She wanted a desert recipe!
Don't make me come over there mister!
*wink*

Yeah, like cliffster has never gone off topic!

Thanks again--off to market!

877 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:01:54pm

re: #868 garhighway

That would be a big project to suss that out properly. I like the medicare buy in idea too.

878 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:01:55pm

I have come to the conclusion that younger people really don't understand the fundamental differences between liberalism and conservatism...they grew up in a faulty, ruined public ed system then went on to liberal dominated colleges...they have no clue about the hazards of excessive taxation and a entitlement culture...they have no clue about the continued subsidization of poverty and the failure of the family structure, the trillions wasted on public housing and the war on povery, the subsidization of food and energy and the havoc wreaking nature of unions....their ideas of self defense have been diluted by the notion of victimization...the govt, to them, is the answer to all problems and govt structures our future...free will and independence are secondary to govt....they are too young to know that govt does not serve them...they are liberals and gladly fall in line

879 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:02:08pm

re: #875 cliffster

That only holds true if all new treatments are more expensive. Many new treatments are merely equally expensive; others are actually less expensive.

Have you read the Gawande articles I link all the time?

880 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:02:09pm

re: #865 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

There's cake?

There's always cake. But this time, it's Robert Redford.

881 oldegeezr  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:03:08pm

re: #857 windsagio

That's my line windy...!
Are you a cat or tri kinda sailor?
Huh...?

882 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:03:41pm

re: #878 albusteve

Do you receive any money or benefits from the feds or the state, Steve?

883 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:03:51pm

re: #879 Obdicut

That only holds true if all new treatments are more expensive. Many new treatments are merely equally expensive; others are actually less expensive.

Have you read the Gawande articles I link all the time?

Nope, I haven't seen them. Shoot them to me.

884 SixDegrees  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:03:56pm

re: #863 brookly red

I love that Canadian heart surgery thing... that for me says it all.

Canada's health care system has actually been a small boon to the Detroit area, where a number of small specialty clinics have sprung up over the years to service Canadian customers. MRI clinics seem to be the most popular.

Interestingly, this has led to greater demand for small, cheap MRI machines; these have less capability than their full-size cousins, but are perfect for scanning an arm or a leg, for example. So the US gets a double benefit - they sell the service, and get the spinoff technology created by the new demands of the marketplace. Maybe someday we'll even wind up selling some of these smaller, cheaper machines to Canada, but change in government-run systems is glacially slow, so that won't happen anytime soon.

885 solomonpanting  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:04:00pm

re: #875 cliffster

The only way to level it is to make it so that nobody gets access to the best treatments - tell rich people they can't have the coverage they want even though they can afford it.

Ah!! Now there's a clear distinction between liberty and equality.

886 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:04:12pm

re: #878 albusteve

I have come to the conclusion that younger people really don't understand the fundamental differences between liberalism and conservatism...they grew up in a faulty, ruined public ed system then went on to liberal dominated colleges...they have no clue about the hazards of excessive taxation and a entitlement culture...they have no clue about the continued subsidization of poverty and the failure of the family structure, the trillions wasted on public housing and the war on povery, the subsidization of food and energy and the havoc wreaking nature of unions...their ideas of self defense have been diluted by the notion of victimization...the govt, to them, is the answer to all problems and govt structures our future...free will and independence are secondary to govt...they are too young to know that govt does not serve them...they are liberals and gladly fall in line

Then it's up to you and me to see to it that they learn the truth.

887 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:04:23pm

re: #874 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The cake is a lie.

no the cake is real, just not for you.

888 windsagio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:04:37pm

re: #878 albusteve

Damn kids! Get our of my yard!

889 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:04:55pm

re: #878 albusteve

They will likely find out within their lifetimes.

890 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:05:04pm

re: #873 sagehen

Your British GP aunt didn't spend $300,000 for her education, either.

This is true, but keep in mind she doesn't have the option of seeing private patients on her own time either because NHS employees aren't allowed other sources of income. So it pretty much balances out her subsidized education costs.

891 windsagio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:05:16pm

re: #881 oldegeezr

I wish, I'm kjust a wimpy power-boat kind of guy. I love a good turn of phrase tho :)

892 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:05:41pm

re: #887 brookly red

no the cake is real, just not for you.

Question for the room: It is my understanding that one of the goals of buddhism is the annihilation of the self, into the larger unity.

Question - if the self is an illusion, how does one eliminate it, and who is doing the elimination?

893 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:05:47pm

re: #890 Surabaya Stew

So, it's like a Physician's Peace Corp?

894 Kruk  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:05:52pm

re: #887 brookly red

no the cake is real, just not for you.

If you know the candlelight is fire, the meal was cooked long ago.

(Bonus marks to anyone who gets that one.)

895 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:05:57pm

re: #883 cliffster

This one is about the cost of health care, so most apropos to what you were talking about:

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

This is about healthcare/insurance reform in general:

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

896 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:06:10pm

re: #843 brookly red

unless of course you are a member of the ruling elite... I still don't think any bill presented applies to congress, but hey I could be wrong...

Congress has health care provided by their employer. So do I. What are you talking about?

897 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:06:15pm

re: #884 SixDegrees

Canada's health care system has actually been a small boon to the Detroit area, where a number of small specialty clinics have sprung up over the years to service Canadian customers. MRI clinics seem to be the most popular.

Interestingly, this has led to greater demand for small, cheap MRI machines; these have less capability than their full-size cousins, but are perfect for scanning an arm or a leg, for example. So the US gets a double benefit - they sell the service, and get the spinoff technology created by the new demands of the marketplace. Maybe someday we'll even wind up selling some of these smaller, cheaper machines to Canada, but change in government-run systems is glacially slow, so that won't happen anytime soon.

I only need to look north to reject a public "option"...

898 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:06:39pm

re: #882 Obdicut

Do you receive any money or benefits from the feds or the state, Steve?

899 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:06:51pm

re: #892 Guanxi88

Question for the room: It is my understanding that one of the goals of buddhism is the annihilation of the self, into the larger unity.

Question - if the self is an illusion, how does one eliminate it, and who is doing the elimination?

death panels... get over it.

900 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:06:52pm

re: #886 Dark_Falcon

If we didn't subsidize electricity (and heating oil) in this country, lots more people would die every year.

To pick just one thing from Steve's laundry-list.

901 solomonpanting  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:06:54pm

re: #890 Surabaya Stew

This is true, but keep in mind she doesn't have the option of seeing private patients on her own time either because NHS employees aren't allowed other sources of income. So it pretty much balances out her subsidized education costs.

Yet another distinction between liberty and equality.
How informative this thread is!

902 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:06:58pm

re: #882 Obdicut

Do you receive any money or benefits from the feds or the state, Steve?

why do you ask?

903 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:07:19pm

Well, My Toyota Highlander hit 210,000 miles today.

Congress is kicking Toyota hard!

904 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:07:32pm

re: #898 ArchangelMichael

Asking someone complaining about entitlement if they receive entitlements is a non-sequitur how, exactly?

905 Kruk  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:07:41pm

re: #897 brookly red

I only need to look north to reject a public "option"...

You do understand the difference between the public option and single payer, don't you? Not to mention public financing and public provision of healthcare?

906 windsagio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:07:45pm

re: #900 Obdicut

Its the myth of the self-made man.... Again.

907 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:07:46pm

re: #899 brookly red

death panels... get over it.

Wait'll the Buddha hears about this!

908 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:08:00pm

re: #895 Obdicut

This one is about the cost of health care, so most apropos to what you were talking about:

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

This is about healthcare/insurance reform in general:

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

Thank you. I look at the New Yorker like you probably look at the National Review, but I'm sure it's cited well and I'll read through it.

909 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:08:08pm

re: #892 Guanxi88

Question for the room: It is my understanding that one of the goals of buddhism is the annihilation of the self, into the larger unity.

Question - if the self is an illusion, how does one eliminate it, and who is doing the elimination?

How do we know, ask some other illusion.

910 jaunte  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:08:49pm

re: #892 Guanxi88

Mu.

911 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:08:51pm

re: #878 albusteve

I have come to the conclusion that younger people really don't understand the fundamental differences between liberalism and conservatism...they grew up in a faulty, ruined public ed system then went on to liberal dominated colleges...they have no clue about the hazards of excessive taxation and a entitlement culture...they have no clue about the continued subsidization of poverty and the failure of the family structure, the trillions wasted on public housing and the war on povery, the subsidization of food and energy and the havoc wreaking nature of unions...their ideas of self defense have been diluted by the notion of victimization...the govt, to them, is the answer to all problems and govt structures our future...free will and independence are secondary to govt...they are too young to know that govt does not serve them...they are liberals and gladly fall in line

Because it is utterly impossible that they understand the difference and still disagree with you? Reasonable and well-informed minds could not possibly disagree?

912 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:09:01pm

re: #893 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

So, it's like a Physician's Peace Corp?

Thats an interesting way of putting it. Not sure how long her term of service is, but my understanding is that she isn't eligible for a government pension if she quits to open a private practice before retirement age sets in. Therefore, an aspiring British medical student who takes the subsidized education offered by the NHS is effectively sighing a lifetime contract.

913 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:09:06pm

re: #909 Walter L. Newton

How do we know, ask some other illusion.

Oooh! Somone's kept up with the Koan thread from many months ago.

Well done, shifu Walt!

914 Joanne  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:09:08pm

re: #867 Rightwingconspirator

re: #808 windsagio

So I have zero support spoken for holding out for a public option. Incremental will do just fine. Not a scientific poll by any means.

I much prefer Medicare for all, myself. I don't see why we have to dick around like this. Let the government make payments. They have bargaining power to keep costs reasonable while still ensuring that those providing care get $$ (and, while I cannot quantify this, I bet reimbursements are better for all involved when getting paid from the government, when you consider doctors and hospitals having to have full time staff to deal with insurance company delaying tactics). Public option is an acceptable substitute for that. But if we hold out for the perfect, how many people will continue to lose their insurance? How many will have to file bankruptcy and be put into financial ruin? How many will die?

It's those things that make me accepting of something - anything, at this point. Some of these elected schmucks rake in millions from the insurance industry. We're not going to get the best option. The GOP got 80% of what it asked for (no matter what they say), and no one will vote for it because that means a Dem "win" - which is much more important in avoiding than doing something for their constituents. Getting Dems to agree on anything is like herding cats.

I am all for elected officials voting their conscience - but not when that conscience is solely to ensure that the other side fails or they are bought and paid for by some large company looking to cash in on everyone.

915 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:10:04pm

re: #907 Guanxi88

Wait'll the Buddha hears about this!

he won't... I met him on the road.

916 windsagio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:10:18pm

re: #911 garhighway

No, anyone that disagrees with me must just not understand how the real world works! Do you agree with me?

917 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:10:21pm

re: #910 jaunte

Mu.

Ding for the right answer.

918 ArchangelMichael  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:10:30pm

re: #904 Obdicut

Asking someone complaining about entitlement if they receive entitlements is a non-sequitur how, exactly?

You are implying that being concerned about government excesses means you should be concerned about any government action at all. This seems to be a common talking point among the left (and coming up here at LGF more often where people should know better) in debates over government programs and spending. Paint everyone on the other side as though they are anarchocapitalists.

919 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:10:31pm

re: #900 Obdicut

If we didn't subsidize electricity (and heating oil) in this country, lots more people would die every year.

To pick just one thing from Steve's laundry-list.

of course, there is lots of picking there...like the TVA project, there are some winners I didn't mention...that was not my point, I'm not an anarchist and there is a role for govt

920 SixDegrees  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:10:32pm

re: #903 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Well, My Toyota Highlander hit 210,000 miles today.

Congress is kicking Toyota hard!

It's the sort of issue Congress absolutely loves. A villain in every way, from being deceitful to being a foreigner, that they can parade in front of the nation to project an aura of "doing something." Bipartisanship reigns supreme in the hearing room.

They'll probably encourage more foreign auto manufacturers to expand their plants in the US, so they can have a steady supply of reliable scapegoats to toss snark at.

921 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:10:45pm

re: #913 Guanxi88

Oooh! Somone's kept up with the Koan thread from many months ago.

Well done, shifu Walt!

Interesting... a new character on LOST this year is Dogen, who basically matches up to a real historical character Zen Master Dogen.

922 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:11:34pm

re: #903 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Well, My Toyota Highlander hit 210,000 miles today.

Congress is kicking Toyota hard!

Obama has Chevy's to sell.

923 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:11:38pm

re: #905 Kruk

You do understand the difference between the public option and single payer, don't you? Not to mention public financing and public provision of healthcare?

no, I am really stupid... just the product of the single payer educational system.

924 Digital Display  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:12:04pm

re: #921 Walter L. Newton

Interesting... a new character on LOST this year is Dogen, who basically matches up to a real historical character Zen Master Dogen.

Walter...Did I read that you quit your job?

925 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:12:09pm

re: #915 brookly red

he won't... I met him on the road.

That wasn't the buddha; that wasn't the road.

926 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:12:32pm

re: #904 Obdicut

Asking someone complaining about entitlement if they receive entitlements is a non-sequitur how, exactly?

what I receive, I'm more than entitled to...I think you misinterpret 'entitlement' to serve an argument you want to engage in...go ahead

927 oldegeezr  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:12:36pm

re: #891 windsagio

I hesitate to tell yeh windy... but we refer to yah guys and gurls as "stink pots"...OOOoh...ooo!

928 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:12:38pm

re: #923 brookly red

no, I am really stupid... just the product of the single payer educational system.

hahahahaha. You're a dick. A funny one.

929 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:13:13pm

re: #892 Guanxi88

Question for the room: It is my understanding that one of the goals of buddhism is the annihilation of the self, into the larger unity.

Question - if the self is an illusion, how does one eliminate it, and who is doing the elimination?

Here's a decent explanation of the 10 ox herding pictures that might help.

The pictures, poems and short pieces of prose tell how the student ventures into the wilderness in his search for "the Bull" (or "Ox"; a common metaphor for enlightenment, or the true self, or simply a regular human being), and how his efforts prove fruitless at first. Undeterred, he keeps searching and eventually finds footprints on a riverbank. When he sees the bull for the first time he is amazed by the splendour of its features ('empty and marvellous' is a well known phrase used to describe the perception of Buddha nature). However, the student has not tamed the bull, and must work hard to bring it under control. Eventually he reaches the highest Enlightenment, returns to the world and 'everyone I look upon becomes enlightened'.

It's a metaphor for one's relationship with their consciousness. It's not really a matter of "eliminating the self" but rather the point is to understand the nature of the "self" and its relationship to other things.

930 Kruk  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:13:15pm

re: #918 ArchangelMichael

You are implying that being concerned about government excesses means you should be concerned about any government action at all. This seems to be a common talking point among the left (and coming up here at LGF more often where people should know better) in debates over government programs and spending. Paint everyone on the other side as though they are anarchocapitalists.

Yep. We need to end this entitlement mentality, but don't you dare touch *my* entitlements. Or put another way, "Keep your Goverment hands off my Medicare!"

931 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:13:25pm

re: #925 Guanxi88

That wasn't the buddha; that wasn't the road.

I wasn't there & that's not my gun...

932 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:13:29pm

re: #928 cliffster

hahahahaha. You're a dick. A funny one.

red's the bomb

933 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:13:54pm

Ezra Klien on the Canadian dude and how it relates to the rest of us:

"America has about 50 million uninsured people within its borders. Canada has a 13f premiers. People should ask themselves a very simple question: Do they think they are likelier to lose their job and fall into the health-care situation of the uninsured? Or are they likelier to become an influential politician and enjoy the health-care options available to the most powerful people in the world?

If you're a United States senator, America may have the best health-care in the world. But if you're an ordinary person with the same vulnerability to bad luck that we all have, you're better off being in Canada, or France, or Japan, or somewhere that doesn't take your insurance away when Wall Street causes the economy to crash."

[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

934 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:14:02pm

re: #918 ArchangelMichael

No, I'm not.

Fuck it.

I'm out. Have fun declaring that liberalism has been a sum failure in every way. It's much easier than actually talking about a solution to anything.

935 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:14:09pm

re: #914 JustJay

Here's what I would like on the Healthcare front.

My family has health insurance. She had to have Lithotripsy a year and a half ago. Each kidney had to be done separately.

$23,000.00 per procedure. Insurance paid $2,100.00 for each procedure, we had to pay 1,200.00 per procedure.

$46,000.00 if we were not insured, $6,600.00 insured.

I'd just like for them to find a way to stop dicking around with the numbers.

936 Joanne  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:14:18pm

re: #875 cliffster

Do you realize how untenable that position is? Today, we have treatments you never could have imagined decades ago. On one hand, we think everyone should get these treatments. On the other hand, we say we have to bring down the cost of medicine. It just doesn't work. The only way to level it is to make it so that nobody gets access to the best treatments - tell rich people they can't have the coverage they want even though they can afford it.

That's a lie. France is the #1 country in the world in healthcare. They have it for all. They also come up with innovations, as do the Swiss and other countries. We are hardly the only innovator.

I know a guy who went to France on vacation and had to have surgery. What would have cost $25,000 here, cost him $3,000 AS A FOREIGNER. It absolutely can and does work.

937 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:14:30pm

re: #931 brookly red

I wasn't there & that's not my gun...

He was dead when I got here...

938 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:14:31pm

re: #934 Obdicut

Though I'll probably be back in two hours after this damn project is over, which is 3/4 of my bad mood.

939 windsagio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:14:47pm

re: #927 oldegeezr

As if I've never heard of that :p

Na, we just use the boat to get places and do things. The boat as its own end isn't really my thing :p

Its mad cool tho, whenever we wanna go up to the Island, we just call the marina and the boat is there weaiting for us. In season, we even have time to stop by and pick up some crabs.

If we were sailing, we'd have to probably keep the damn thing in the water most of the time, and it'd take too freakin' long to get there.

940 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:14:48pm

re: #929 Killgore Trout

It's a metaphor for one's relationship with their consciousness. It's not really a matter of "eliminating the self" but rather the point is to understand the nature of the "self" and its relationship to other things.

Damn! These confucians, taoists, and commies I know certainly have a different take on it.

941 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:15:05pm

I go to two different hospitals several different times a week along with two different medical buildings attached to those hospitals. I'm pushing my father around in a wheelchair for the endless round of doctors visits, lab tests, imaging scans, and chemo.

What do I see every time?

Medical salesman that almost outnumber the patients, well dressed pretty/handsome people in suits with a roll-along case cutting in front of us to see the doctor while we are waiting. They sometimes have appointments, sometimes not, many of them have set it up to have lunch delivered to the entire office by some caterer.

I look at them and see where the thousands we spend every month even after all our coverage are going. On any given day there must be 100 of them roaming around Bayfront and St. Anthony's and the medical buildings attached to them. How can you tell me that this is the best way to spend our medical dollars?

942 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:15:34pm

re: #924 HoosierHoops

Walter...Did I read that you quit your job?

Yes. It seems I was upsetting the status quo, doing my job too well, district manager was complimenting me, had another employee who was acting a bit screwy to me, store manager didn't seem to want to help, and store manager didn't seem to want to support any ideas I have to increase sales and efficiency in the used furniture department.

I quit, sort of a square peg in a black hole. I'm very "A" type on a job, I don't do things halfway, it seems that I was maybe shaking up the norm or something.

Just not comfortable.

943 solomonpanting  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:15:46pm

re: #920 SixDegrees

It's the sort of issue Congress absolutely loves. A villain in every way, from being deceitful to being a foreigner, that they can parade in front of the nation to project an aura of "doing something." Bipartisanship reigns supreme in the hearing room.

They'll probably encourage more foreign auto manufacturers to expand their plants in the US, so they can have a steady supply of reliable scapegoats to toss snark at.

Does the government still own GM? I'm wondering if the UAW is tickled pink?

944 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:16:02pm

re: #937 Racer X

He was dead when I got here...

yet he voted twice any way...

945 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:16:53pm

re: #928 cliffster

hahahahaha. You're a dick. A funny one.

My **** is so big; it was framed for murder as part of an intricate prescription drug scandal.

946 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:17:30pm

re: #944 brookly red

yet he voted twice any way...

Only twice? Musta been a Southerner.

947 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:17:39pm

re: #936 JustJay

That's a lie. France is the #1 country in the world in healthcare. They have it for all. They also come up with innovations, as do the Swiss and other countries. We are hardly the only innovator.

I know a guy who went to France on vacation and had to have surgery. What would have cost $25,000 here, cost him $3,000 AS A FOREIGNER. It absolutely can and does work.

Yes, and the average total tax responsibility of a citizen in France is 43 to 49 percent. And it can go higher. Does that work for you too?

948 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:18:09pm

re: #946 Racer X

Only twice? Musta been a Southerner.

don't know...

I WASN'T there...

949 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:18:27pm

re: #476 albusteve

Chris Dodd should be in jail...Charlie Rangle is a thief and a liar...these people are paid to run our govt...what a sick joke...Pelosi is complicit in protecting Rangle...I hate these guys, these are not my kind of people...they alienate me...elitists

Not sure what an elitist is but am I right in thinking you call them elitists because they believe they're better than you but in reality they're not, you're better than them? Is that accurate?

950 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:18:32pm

re: #948 brookly red

don't know...

I WASN'T there...

951 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:19:01pm

re: #948 brookly red

don't know...

I WASN'T there...

Hmm... how did you know he voted twice?

952 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:19:08pm

re: #950 Guanxi88

I post, therefor I am...

953 Kragar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:19:19pm

re: #945 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My *** is so big; it was framed for murder as part of an intricate prescription drug scandal.

My *** is so big, well nevermind, I'll need to much bigger thread before I can start talking about it.

954 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:19:32pm

re: #952 brookly red

I post, therefor I am...

When you talk to yourself, who is listening?

955 Joanne  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:19:33pm

re: #884 SixDegrees

Canada's health care system has actually been a small boon to the Detroit area, where a number of small specialty clinics have sprung up over the years to service Canadian customers. MRI clinics seem to be the most popular.

Interestingly, this has led to greater demand for small, cheap MRI machines; these have less capability than their full-size cousins, but are perfect for scanning an arm or a leg, for example. So the US gets a double benefit - they sell the service, and get the spinoff technology created by the new demands of the marketplace. Maybe someday we'll even wind up selling some of these smaller, cheaper machines to Canada, but change in government-run systems is glacially slow, so that won't happen anytime soon.

And the Canadian government pays for healthcare here when Canadian's cannot get what is needed there. (It's called OHIP - Ontario Health Insurance Plans. Each province differs on specifics, I can only speak to Ontario.)

956 windsagio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:19:39pm

re: #947 Walter L. Newton

Does the rest of their system work? Whats their standard of living?

*checks*

... yes.

957 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:19:49pm

re: #936 JustJay

Downding for calling me a liar. You can come up with any story you want to and act like it proves your point. That's why I hate those stupid little anecdotes politicians always tell. what about the hard-working guy in Kansas.. how about the generous lady in Chicago. We can't give the very best cancer treatment to everyone with cancer, we can't give quadruple bypass to everyone with a clogged heart. If you say we can, I'll say you're wrong. won't call you a liar though

958 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:19:52pm

Dude is hung like a squirrel.

959 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:19:55pm

Gotta go. BBL

960 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:19:58pm

re: #951 Racer X

Hmm... how did you know he voted twice?

ACORN records....

961 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:20:42pm

re: #935 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Here's what I would like on the Healthcare front.

My family has health insurance. She had to have Lithotripsy a year and a half ago. Each kidney had to be done separately.

$23,000.00 per procedure. Insurance paid $2,100.00 for each procedure, we had to pay 1,200.00 per procedure.

$46,000.00 if we were not insured, $6,600.00 insured.

I'd just like for them to find a way to stop dicking around with the numbers.

It's so shitty. If you have insurance, you don't see the difference in billing. If you don't have insurance, you get the full bill. For the rest of your life they'll be calling, unless you file BK.

962 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:21:25pm

re: #945 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My *** is so big; it was framed for murder as part of an intricate prescription drug scandal.

Mine is so big people gather under it for cover when there's a tornado

963 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:21:25pm

re: #936 JustJay

That's a lie. France is the #1 country in the world in healthcare. They have it for all. They also come up with innovations, as do the Swiss and other countries. We are hardly the only innovator.

I know a guy who went to France on vacation and had to have surgery. What would have cost $25,000 here, cost him $3,000 AS A FOREIGNER. It absolutely can and does work.

French doctors and nurses don't make much money either

964 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:21:35pm

re: #954 Guanxi88

When you talk to yourself, who is listening?

/the IRS, the NSA, the KOS... all the usual

965 Joanne  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:21:50pm

re: #897 brookly red

I only need to look north to reject a public "option"...

Really? I'd be interested in what you think you know about the Canadian system.

966 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:22:13pm

re: #961 Stanley Sea

There's my problem.

And I have absofuckinglutely no idea what to do about it.

Hope these guys are smarter than me, but I'm beginning to have doubts.

967 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:22:18pm

1000!

968 windsagio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:22:27pm

re: #963 albusteve

Its not just about the doctors, its about the general standard of living in (wherever). I just checked France, they (usually) do really well.

969 Kruk  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:22:33pm

re: #957 cliffster

Downding for calling me a liar. You can come up with any story you want to and act like it proves your point. That's why I hate those stupid little anecdotes politicians always tell. what about the hard-working guy in Kansas.. how about the generous lady in Chicago. We can't give the very best cancer treatment to everyone with cancer, we can't give quadruple bypass to everyone with a clogged heart. If you say we can, I'll say you're wrong. won't call you a liar though

Don't believe the anecodotes. Don't believe the statistics. (Cause the whole world is enganged in a conspiracy to make the American healthcare system look bad because we want to feel better about our own.) Just keep telling yourself that America's healthcare system is the best in the world.

970 webevintage  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:22:43pm

re: #897 brookly red

I only need to look north to reject a public "option"...

Why?
The option of a public option is not what they have in Canada.

971 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:22:47pm

Oops, I guess the thread isn't moving as fast as I thought.

972 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:22:48pm

re: #965 justjay

Really? I'd be interested in what you think you know about the Canadian system.

I know a lot of Canadians who hate it. No matter what feature story MSNBC wants to run. Again - the anecdotes I mentioned above

973 windsagio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:23:24pm

re: #971 Racer X

It was a brave try >

for me I"m gonna get some food at 1000, I need to push it along :)

974 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:23:26pm

re: #969 Kruk

Don't believe the anecodotes. Don't believe the statistics. (Cause the whole world is enganged in a conspiracy to make the American healthcare system look bad because we want to feel better about our own.) Just keep telling yourself that America's healthcare system is the best in the world.

In some ways it is the best, in some ways it is not very good. Depends on how you want to measure it.

975 garhighway  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:23:33pm

re: #963 albusteve

French doctors and nurses don't make much money either

Just a hunch, but I'm betting they don't come out of school with ginormous debt to pay off, either.

976 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:23:42pm

re: #968 windsagio

Its not just about the doctors, its about the general standard of living in (wherever). I just checked France, they (usually) do really well.

Eh, they had some - ahem!- unpleasantness not too long ago. Their national unemployment rate's not great - it's not Detroit bad, but it's not great by a long-shot.

977 Kragar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:23:44pm

re: #967 Racer X

1000!

FAIL!

978 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:23:53pm

re: #956 windsagio

Does the rest of their system work? Whats their standard of living?

*checks*

... yes.

And your point? I was simply listing the tax rates. And I have spent a lot of time in France, and I would say that it works, for some, and doesn't work for others. Ever noticed how many strikes they have in any given year.

Are you aware of the amount of homelessness there are on the streets of major cities like Paris, per capita much larger than many US cities.

There is a lot of variable, some good, some bad.

I don't want to pay the government close to 50 percent taxes for any reason.

979 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:23:55pm

I gotta go. Time to go all "John Coffey".

"Gonna hep a lady."

980 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:23:57pm

re: #965 justjay

Really? I'd be interested in what you think you know about the Canadian system.

only that it is really good for the hospitals in upstate NY...

981 jaunte  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:24:08pm

The French system evolved over an extended period:

NHI evolved, in stages, in response to demands for extension of coverage. Following its original passage in 1928, the NHI program covered salaried workers in industry and commerce whose wages were under a low ceiling.38,39 In 1945, NHI was extended to all industrial and commercial workers and their families, irrespective of wage levels. The extension of coverage took the rest of the century to complete. In 1961, farmers and agricultural workers were covered; in 1966, independent professionals were brought into the system; in 1974, another law proclaimed that NHI should be universal. Not until January 2000 was comprehensive first-dollar health insurance coverage granted to the remaining uninsured population on the basis of residence in France.
[Link: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...]
982 windsagio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:24:21pm

re: #976 Guanxi88

I coudln't find it directly (I didn't look too hard for that, I admit), hows it compare to the US?

983 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:24:28pm

re: #967 Racer X

1000!

1111101000!!

984 Surabaya Stew  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:24:48pm

re: #941 ausador

I go to two different hospitals several different times a week along with two different medical buildings attached to those hospitals. I'm pushing my father around in a wheelchair for the endless round of doctors visits, lab tests, imaging scans, and chemo.

What do I see every time?

Medical salesman that almost outnumber the patients, well dressed pretty/handsome people in suits with a roll-along case cutting in front of us to see the doctor while we are waiting. They sometimes have appointments, sometimes not, many of them have set it up to have lunch delivered to the entire office by some caterer.

I look at them and see where the thousands we spend every month even after all our coverage are going. On any given day there must be 100 of them roaming around Bayfront and St. Anthony's and the medical buildings attached to them. How can you tell me that this is the best way to spend our medical dollars?

Not to mention the cost incoured when companies switch medical plans, like my last job did for 8 years in a row!

985 Kruk  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:24:49pm

re: #972 cliffster

I know a lot of Canadians who hate it. No matter what feature story MSNBC wants to run. Again - the anecdotes I mentioned above

That's why I hate those stupid little anecdotes politicians always tell. what about the hard-working guy in Kansas.. how about the generous lady in Chicago.

Contradict yourself much? Either anecodotes are worth something or they are not.

986 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:24:59pm

re: #972 cliffster

I know a lot of Canadians who hate it. No matter what feature story MSNBC wants to run. Again - the anecdotes I mentioned above

Some days I love the health care here in the U.S.

Other days not so much.

Not sure we need to spend a Trillion Dollars to make it better different though.

987 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:25:50pm

re: #985 Kruk

That's why I hate those stupid little anecdotes politicians always tell. what about the hard-working guy in Kansas.. how about the generous lady in Chicago.

Contradict yourself much? Either anecodotes are worth something or they are not.

Er, actually I was saying the anecdotes are bad in both place. I really don't ever contradict myself - I'm very opinionated.

988 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:25:58pm

re: #949 b_sharp

Not sure what an elitist is but am I right in thinking you call them elitists because they believe they're better than you but in reality they're not, you're better than them? Is that accurate?

I'm not better than anybody, that's not the point...they should both be investigated by congress, just like Rangle is being investigated by the FBI....the fact that Reid and Pelosi protect them makes me say they are elitists, never mind the fact that they are wealthy, prominent pols

989 windsagio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:26:00pm

re: #978 Walter L. Newton

Thats kind of hte problem tho'. You have a dislike of taxation in general, and don't think about what it means.

If taxes are higher, but alot of costs are lower because of better infastructure, government programs, etc, it balances out.

The kneejerk "I HATE TAXES" reaction seems to me either just emotional, or not that well thought out.

990 Ojoe  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:26:04pm

Health care reform, the one year long shouting match brought to you by the political klutz, Obama.

991 SixDegrees  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:26:14pm

re: #955 justjay

And the Canadian government pays for healthcare here when Canadian's cannot get what is needed there. (It's called OHIP - Ontario Health Insurance Plans. Each province differs on specifics, I can only speak to Ontario.)

Ontario is the province we're next to. These clinics arose because of high demand from the Canadian side of the border for services their own health care system either doesn't provide, or doesn't provide in a timely manner.

992 windsagio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:26:35pm

re: #989 windsagio

To clarify, taxes aren't bad in themselves, if you get value for them.

//Heresy, I know.

993 albusteve  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:27:11pm

re: #956 windsagio

Does the rest of their system work? Whats their standard of living?

*checks*

... yes.

it should work with the astronomical funding from their govt

995 Kruk  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:27:31pm

re: #992 windsagio

To clarify, taxes aren't bad in themselves, if you get value for them.

//Heresy, I know.

You commie!

//

996 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:27:43pm

re: #989 windsagio

Thats kind of hte problem tho'. You have a dislike of taxation in general, and don't think about what it means.

If taxes are higher, but alot of costs are lower because of better infastructure, government programs, etc, it balances out.

The kneejerk "I HATE TAXES" reaction seems to me either just emotional, or not that well thought out.

I don't hate taxes.

997 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:27:50pm

re: #963 albusteve

French doctors and nurses don't make much money either

Yeah, but they get to live in France. That means everyone gets paid for overtime, eight weeks and twelve vacation days paid time off per year along with all the soft cheese they can eat. It's a package deal. You're not down with it. We get that.

998 windsagio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:27:53pm

re: #993 albusteve

If it works and they have a great standard of living, whats the harm?

Is it just grounded in philosophy?

999 brookly red  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:28:21pm

re: #993 albusteve

it should work with the astronomical funding from their govt

they don't cover plane tickets to the US....

1000 cliffster  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:28:33pm

re: #994 Killgore Trout

General Physician Salaries - International Comparison

That would be neat if they were all baselined on a single currency.

1001 Ojoe  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:28:36pm

re: #941 ausador

When my mom was really sick, and stubborn, and we couldn't convince her to go to a doctor, no doctor would make a house call.

The system is funky and it is not just the insurance companies.

1002 windsagio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:28:41pm

re: #996 Walter L. Newton

"I don't want to pay 50% taxes for any reason"

Implies you just don't liek taxes >>

1003 Guanxi88  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:28:42pm

re: #982 windsagio

I coudln't find it directly (I didn't look too hard for that, I admit), hows it compare to the US?

For 18 - 24 year olds, about 20%, national rates for the older population not much better:

[Link: ipsnews.net...]

For 2009, it was about 9.5% nation-wide:

[Link: www.insee.fr...]

But the French don't count people who've quit looking for work as unemployed after 1 year out of the market, so, like here, who the hell knows?

1004 Racer X  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:29:06pm

re: #992 windsagio

To clarify, taxes aren't bad in themselves, if you get value for them.

//Heresy, I know.

Well, thats the thing innit?

I don't mind paying taxes. I do mind devious politicians taking that money and spending it on things it was not intended for. Then asking for more money to pay for the first thing.

1005 Kragar  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:29:08pm

Banging my head against the desk. On my admin desktop, I came in and it was hung because they did a software update and it didn't reboot right, so I shut it down and had it reconnect. Took 15 minutes for it to come back up, and since I have a lot to do later, I went an initiated another software update. It went ahead and told me to reboot, so I did, another 20 minutes wasted as it configured itself, applied the patches and rebooted. So finally I log in and try to get set for the work tonight and 10 minutes later, bam, your computer needs to reboot because of a software update, looking at another 20 minutes of sitting here.

BAM BAM BAM.

1006 Joanne  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:29:15pm

re: #935 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That shows everything that is wrong with this system. It shows why families go bankrupt, lose their homes and sometimes their lives.

1007 windsagio  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:29:25pm

re: #1000 cliffster

Physician salaries are only part of the equation. We also have to look at physician school debt, standard of living, quality of care, etc. etc.

1008 Killgore Trout  Thu, Feb 25, 2010 3:29:28pm