Record Breaking Blizzard of Talking Points

PoliticsFebruary 2010 • Views: 4,560

At her Facebook page, Sarah Palin stringently fact-checks the health care summit.

Oh, wait. Actually, she just reposted the GOP’s official talking points. The short version: 1) we are so interested in reconciliation, how dare you say we’re not? 2) really, honest, we mean it, we’re totally into reconciliation, 3) the CBO predicted health care premiums would rise [That’s not a fact, it’s spin. – ed.], 4) we want incremental plans, the Dems don’t, and 5) abortion, abortion, abortion!

It’s a real stretch to call any of this “fact checking.”

Meanwhile, here’s a revealing talking point montage from last night’s Chris Matthews show:

Youtube Video

Jump to bottom

349 comments

goddamnedfrank Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:25:04am

Okay, if I’m going to understand this I’ll need to start over with a clean sheet of paper and start writing this all down step by step.

Buck Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:32:46am

The CBO has not scored the current bill. The last CBO score did NOT include the multi-billion dollar payoff (tax break) for unions, or any of the other last minute sweetheart deals.

No one can quote the CBO, unless they score the newest incarnation of the bill.

The second you change the bill, especially the income side, you invalidate the “budget neutral” forecast.

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:33:48am

The ‘spin’ link above isn’t working for me, Charles.

Killgore Trout Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:34:01am

I’ve been thinking about the Healthcare debate and have come to the conclusion that Republican politician’s real fear is that the Dem plan will actually work. Obama pointed out the other day that many of the things in the current bill were once Republican proposals. Republicans only opposed them once the Dems adopted them. The fact that the Republicans are still relying on bogus and easily debunked talking points tells me that it’s all they have. Why use easily exposed distortions if you have facts on your side?

abbyadams Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:34:36am

Crap, looks like I SHOULD have participated in the drinking game after all.

jaunte Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:34:42am

re: #3 Obdicut

Goddamnedfrank pretty well summed it up…

recusancy Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:35:14am

re: #2 Buck

Oh wait. Tax breaks are payoffs now? So the Republican party’s entire economic cure-all is payoffs. Glad that’s cleared up.

Killgore Trout Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:35:39am

re: #2 Buck

The CBO has not scored the current bill. The last CBO score did NOT include the multi-billion dollar payoff (tax break) for unions, or any of the other last minute sweetheart deals.

No one can quote the CBO, unless they score the newest incarnation of the bill.

The second you change the bill, especially the income side, you invalidate the “budget neutral” forecast.

They are probably going to consolodate the house and senate bills. It will probably fall somewhere within those to CBO assessments.

Political Atheist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:36:41am

Another fact check view…
[Link: www.politico.com…]

Obama exaggerated. Boehner lied. Reid was incorrect. Ryan is wrong.

Read more: [Link: www.politico.com…]

SNIP

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:36:57am

re: #4 Killgore Trout

It is astonishing how many GOP politicians are resoundingly deriding positions they previously held. Not just on this subject, though it’s very apparent here.

abbyadams Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:38:46am

re: #10 Obdicut

I honestly can’t figure out why, in this age, where literally almost everything is recorded somehow, somewhere, in audio/video/full blazing technicolor. Do they hope we are stupid? Won’t check?

Charles Johnson Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:38:47am

re: #3 Obdicut

The ‘spin’ link above isn’t working for me, Charles.

If you reload, it works now.

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:40:22am

re: #12 Charles

Thanks.

reidr Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:40:28am

Is there really any reason to have more than one Republican? Just send in one with the talking points to repeat ad nauseam. Heck, it could even be a mannequin with a tape recorded message.

Buck Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:40:36am

re: #7 recusancy

Oh wait. Tax breaks are payoffs now? So the Republican party’s entire economic cure-all is payoffs. Glad that’s cleared up.

A huge tax break for unions only? The Unions came in and negotiated with the WhiteHouse. If you can call it a negotiation. The Unions supported and gave money to Obama during the election… and when they found a tax on their health insurance that they didn’t like, Obama eliminated it. It has been estimated to be $60 Billion….

Not everyone who had a “Caddy” insurance plan… just government workers and unions.

Show me the same thing in any other budget/plan.

Killgore Trout Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:40:38am

re: #10 Obdicut

It is astonishing how many GOP politicians are resoundingly deriding positions they previously held. Not just on this subject, though it’s very apparent here.

It’s pretty blatant. I’m pretty confident that they just want to rob Obama of a political victory.

Killgore Trout Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:45:09am

I would have no problem with starting over and going step by step if there were any signs that the Republicans wanted to negotiate in earnest. Their continued dishonesty clearly shows they just want to obstruct. Fuck ‘em. Reconcile the bills and let’s get on with it.

Qabal Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:45:22am

Health care is going to absolutely wreck Republicans in the long run. They have been opposed to reform for, how long, 60 years? And now they are using it purely for short-term political gain at the cost of a looming health care crisis that is going to hit this country within the next decade. Democrats will simply repeat, over and over again, “We’ve tried and tried to pass health care reform and the Republicans have always been opposed to it.” You think the Tea Partiers are populists now, wait until the only people that can afford health insurance of any kind are the wealthy and we hit an actual crisis. Populism like you’ve never seen.

recusancy Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:46:25am

re: #18 Qabal

I think there was a true/slant post saying pretty much the same thing yesterday.

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:46:41am

I don’t trust either side…

I am becoming more of an equal opportunity hater every day.

Shiplord Kirel Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:47:10am

OT (or is it?)

In a not entirely unrelated development, troglodyte televangelist and homophobic agitator James Dobson has sent a letter of endorsement to Goodhair Perry’s reelection campaign. The Goodhair campaign proudly displays this on its website.

“Over the years, Gov. Perry has established a record that is consistently pro-life, pro-marriage and pro-religious liberty……….He has demonstrated his deep regard for the sanctity of life by signing more pro-life bills into law than any other governor in Texas history. He demonstrated his support for the God-given institution of marriage by strongly supporting the Texas Marriage Amendment. And he has helped lead the effort to establish the strongest protections for religious liberty in the state of Texas. No other candidate in this race measures up to the high standards established by Gov. Perry on these critical issues of our day.”…

ShaunP Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:48:59am

re: #20 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I don’t trust either side…

I am becoming more of an equal opportunity hater every day.

Welcome to my world…

reidr Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:51:28am

re: #17 Killgore Trout

I would have no problem with starting over and going step by step if there were any signs that the Republicans wanted to negotiate in earnest. Their continued dishonesty clearly shows they just want to obstruct. Fuck ‘em. Reconcile the bills and let’s get on with it.

Precisely. (I don’t want to steal “quite concur”, but that would work, too.) Starting from scratch would just have us at this same point a year from now. The Republicans want to be able to crow about a useless, do-nothing, throw-‘em-out Congress for the midterms.

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:52:34am

re: #11 abbyadams

I honestly can’t figure out why, in this age, where literally almost everything is recorded somehow, somewhere, in audio/video/full blazing technicolor. Do they hope we are stupid? Won’t check?

They hope Jon Stewart won’t notice.

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:53:46am

re: #18 Qabal

Health care is going to absolutely wreck Republicans in the long run. They have been opposed to reform for, how long, 60 years? And now they are using it purely for short-term political gain at the cost of a looming health care crisis that is going to hit this country within the next decade. Democrats will simply repeat, over and over again, “We’ve tried and tried to pass health care reform and the Republicans have always been opposed to it.” You think the Tea Partiers are populists now, wait until the only people that can afford health insurance of any kind are the wealthy and we hit an actual crisis. Populism like you’ve never seen.

The tea partiers aren’t exactly populists, and I imagine that when they can’t afford health care they’ll still blame it on the same people.

recusancy Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:54:07am

re: #24 SanFranciscoZionist

They hope Jon Stewart won’t notice.

He did.

Comedy Central Video

Stanley Sea Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:54:50am

The first comment on Bitter Sarah’s facebook page is a comparison to Nazi Germany.

The lady found her niche, and she’s damn well sticking to it.

Bob Levin Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:54:59am

I think if we clear away the fog, or shovel out the barn (choose your own metaphor), we’ll find that neither party really has any clue what will work. If the Republicans have any advantage, it’s that most people who are old enough know that Mt. Bill sitting next to them will be a disaster. There should be some law of physics or political science correlating the size of a bill to its ineffectiveness, counter-productivity, and the amount of unintended consequences that will do the opposite (for instance, cause a shortage of doctors, increasing the cost of insurance).

“Starting over” means—“we don’t know what to do either”. Now, if anyone has ever attended any gathering where any candidate speaks, you know you’re not watching the most creative thinker or the best problem solver in the room. However, the featured speaker will have the squarest features, best haircut, and have a natural ability to talk for twenty minutes without saying anything.

The only thing citizens can do is actually figure out what will work—hit the internet, discuss it with friends, and get it out in the open where some politician can steal the idea and claim it is theirs.

That’s democracy.

wrenchwench Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:55:55am

Maybe someone should loan the Republicans a thesaurus. And a clue.

darthstar Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:56:14am

Okay…I’m all packed up and ready to go to Tahoe…or should I just start over with empty suitcases…I’m confused now. Maybe I should take this step-by-step…yes, that’s it. 64 steps from now I’ll be up by the car.

Play nice, everyone. See you all in about six hours or so…oh crap…Dog food…I do have one more step before I go.

Cheers.

Lidane Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:57:20am

re: #11 abbyadams

Do they hope we are stupid? Won’t check?

Yes and yes.

Most of these idiots are still operating as if media isn’t instant these days, and as if everything you say and do can’t be immediately verified. It would be hilarious if it wasn’t so pathetically transparent.

Shiplord Kirel Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:57:32am

re: #21 Shiplord Kirel

It won’t surprise y’all to hear that Dobson is also a creationist and an AGW denialist.
Wikipedia

Dobson is an intelligent design supporter and has spoken at conferences supporting the subject, and frequently criticizes evolution, contrary to the teachings of his Christian denomination, the Church of the Nazarene. In 2007, Dobson was one of 25 evangelicals who called for the ouster of Rev. Richard Cizik from his position at the National Association of Evangelicals because Cizik had taken a stance urging evangelicals to take global warming seriously.

recusancy Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:57:38am

re: #30 darthstar

Okay…I’m all packed up and ready to go to Tahoe…or should I just start over with empty suitcases…I’m confused now. Maybe I should take this step-by-step…yes, that’s it. 64 steps from now I’ll be up by the car.

Play nice, everyone. See you all in about six hours or so…oh crap…Dog food…I do have one more step before I go.

Cheers.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com…]

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:58:06am

re: #30 darthstar

Safe travels, enjoy yourself.

Stanley Sea Fri, Feb 26, 2010 11:58:15am

re: #33 recusancy

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com…]

EXCELLENT!

Qabal Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:00:02pm

re: #21 Shiplord Kirel

I live in Colorado Springs, home of Dr. Dobson and his Focus on the Family ministry. To be fair to him, his ministry does a lot of helpful things in the community in regards to supporting families and helping parents make better decisions in regards to their children. However, once they’ve got people in with the parenting and family issues, it’s a smooth transition to the political side of things. They’ve laid off at least 70 people in the last year yet somehow just spent over $2 million on a watered down Super Bowl ad. I can’t really explain that one.

Since he lives in the area, I’ve got second and third hand stories of people that have run across him which are not exactly flattering. He lives in an exclusive, tony community called Kissing Camels on the west side of town in a beautiful area right by Garden of the Gods. We all heard he was retiring from FoTF this year, which at his age seemed (more than) appropriate. However, he then pissed on his entire ministry by declaring that he would immediately start a NEW radio program with his son:

[Link: www.gofbw.com…]

It’s almost comical. No, it just is. The guy is over 70 years old now and definitely in “get off my lawn!” territory. It’s my firm belief that Obama winning the election sent him over the edge. He could have sailed off into the sunset with his ministry still going strong after his retirement, and enormous goodwill from the massive evangelical subculture for his years of service to them. But no, he just couldn’t take the direction the country is going now and had to start up a new ministry that is a DIRECT COMPETITOR to his old one, in the same city. FotF is so screwed now. People love to listen to Dobson. Who’s going to listen to FotF’s radio program when they can listen to Dobson himself?

abbyadams Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:01:25pm

re: #31 Lidane

See, this is what I thought.

I’m thinking about voting on candidates solely based on age (okay, not really,) but it would be lovely get some younger people in there who aren’t quite so technologically oblivious. Although it seems like age doesn’t have to do anything with it either. (See Olympic Snowboarders.)

freetoken Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:02:27pm

re: #32 Shiplord Kirel

Yes, Dobson is the complete package.

His go-to guy on science and educational issues, Del Tackett, runs a website (and publishes material) by the name of “Truth Project”. Del can make some of the most mind-numbing of statements wrt science, and yet the Truth Project publishes material used by homeschoolers to teach their children.

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:02:31pm

I can’t access Facebook from here, but I don’t expect much from Palin. She has no clue about healthcare, and doesn’t plan to try to figure it out.

She’s opposed to a national health care plan that everyone will be forced to go on, where federal funds will go for abortions and little boys with Down Syndrome and the elderly will plead for their lives before boards of dead-eyed bureaucrats.

The fact that NONE OF THIS IS EVEN CLOSE TO BEING ON THE TABLE is irrelevent to her. It’s a good talking point because, well, most Americans are also against having their Blue Cross taken away and their grandma killed.

recusancy Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:03:39pm

re: #39 SanFranciscoZionist

I can’t access Facebook from here, but I don’t expect much from Palin. She has no clue about healthcare, and doesn’t plan to try to figure it out.

She’s opposed to a national health care plan that everyone will be forced to go on, where federal funds will go for abortions and little boys with Down Syndrome and the elderly will plead for their lives before boards of dead-eyed bureaucrats.

The fact that NONE OF THIS IS EVEN CLOSE TO BEING ON THE TABLE is irrelevent to her. It’s a good talking point because, well, most Americans are also against having their Blue Cross taken away and their grandma killed.

You can also find the rantings here: [Link: president-sarah-palin.blogspot.com…]

Killgore Trout Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:05:20pm

re: #20 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I don’t trust either side…

I am becoming more of an equal opportunity hater every day.

The reason why I’m siding with the Dems on this one is they have a vested interest in passing a bill that actually works. If it doesn’t then they own it and will pay the price. If the bill was really as bad as the Republicans say then they wouldn’t need to lie about the bill. Notice how nobody in that room had the balls to bring out the Death Panel thing? They’d get laughed at. Most of their criticism is not serious.

recusancy Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:05:41pm

re: #37 abbyadams

See, this is what I thought.

I’m thinking about voting on candidates solely based on age (okay, not really,) but it would be lovely get some younger people in there who aren’t quite so technologically oblivious. Although it seems like age doesn’t have to do anything with it either. (See Olympic Snowboarders.)

Less old, less white, and less male. It should at least be somewhat close to a representation of the countries demographics.

freetoken Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:06:01pm

re: #38 freetoken

Tackett is now featuring on his blog the German family that was granted asylum here, because they want to homeschool their children, which Germany will not allow.

BTW, Tackett is also one of those who, on healthcare, was ranting about the “bribery” of Ben Nelson. Apparently Tackett thinks it is immoral for Senators to lobby for their states.

wrenchwench Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:06:55pm

re: #42 recusancy

Less old, less white, and less male. It should at least be somewhat close to a representation of the countries demographics.

What about the content of their character? Sheesh.

recusancy Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:08:54pm

re: #44 wrenchwench

What about the content of their character? Sheesh.

I’m pretty sure there are good character people who would fall into one or more of those demographic categories.

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:09:10pm

re: #41 Killgore Trout

How do you fix something as big as this if there is a fuck up.

I guess I’m being a coward…

…but a fire extinguisher won’t help here.

Perhaps hyperbole… but… dang this could get really messed up.

Killgore Trout Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:10:08pm

OT: Happy Day
Hulu (yes, it’s a legal site) has the complete run of the original Office series with Ricky Gervaise. Far better than the American version with lots of painfully awkward situations and comedy that will make you cringe and squirm. Bookmark it. Great stuff!

reidr Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:10:28pm

I just heard a clip on CNN of McConnell whining about a 2700 page bill and taking over 1/6th of the economy. Such deep, meaningful, honest arguments.

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:10:37pm

re: #45 recusancy

I’m pretty sure there are good character people who would fall into one or more of those demographic categories.

Well, it cuts both ways. If an old white guy is the best candidate, to my eye, I will darn well vote for him. But then, you think to yourself, “it can’t be possible that so many of the most qualified are old white guys”. Well, maybe old. People do gain wisdom with age.

wrenchwench Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:10:49pm

re: #45 recusancy

I’m pretty sure there are good character people who would fall into one or more of those demographic categories.

I’ll stick with the choosing by abilities and character and ignore what demographic a person falls in.

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:11:39pm

re: #47 Killgore Trout

Guess who has two hours to kill, RIGHT NOW!?

THANKS!

Fat Bastard Vegetarian Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:12:04pm

re: #51 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

LATER!

abbyadams Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:12:30pm

re: #44 wrenchwench

re: #42 recusancy

Upding for both of you, because I think you’re both right. Wrenchwench because ability is absolutely crucial, recusancy because an Affluent Asian from California is in no way able to really represent a poor white from Alabama.

Throw this tidbit in:

When the Constitution was written and the Senate created, there were around 4 million people in America, or about one senator for every 150,000 people. For Congress to be as representative as it was in 1789, we’d need to elect 2,000 senators and 5,000 House members.

And I’d say, maybe we are really not represented. I’m NOT saying we need more representation, but I think we need better. (In the Obvious Department.)

Killgore Trout Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:13:14pm

re: #46 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

How do you fix something as big as this if there is a fuck up.

I guess I’m being a coward…

…but a fire extinguisher won’t help here.

Perhaps hyperbole… but… dang this could get really messed up.

It’s certainly not going to be perfect and there will be tweaks to the system once we figure out what works and what doesn’t. I think it will be much worse if we do nothing. One of the most infuriating Republican talking points to me is when Republicans say there isn’t a problem. People who buy their own insurance or have pre-existing conditions are in very serious trouble.

Killgore Trout Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:14:07pm

re: #51 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Guess who has two hours to kill, RIGHT NOW!?

THANKS!

Heh, I’ll watch a few this afternoon. But I’m going to have an Office marathon this weekend.

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:14:28pm

re: #47 Killgore Trout

I didn’t like the US version. I’ll give the UK one a try. Thanks for pointing it out.

reine.de.tout Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:15:15pm

Listening to TV - is New York’s Gov Patterson resigning?

cliffster Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:15:25pm

re: #47 Killgore Trout

OT: Happy Day
Hulu (yes, it’s a legal site) has the complete run of the original Office series with Ricky Gervaise. Far better than the American version with lots of painfully awkward situations and comedy that will make you cringe and squirm. Bookmark it. Great stuff!

I can’t watch that kind of shit. It causes me physical pain that doesn’t go away for days

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:15:31pm

re: #53 abbyadams

Hell, I think we might actually be better with more representatives and senators. It’d mean every individual one was less powerful, and it would be possible to get elected without a lot of money.

I actually really like that idea.

reidr Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:15:56pm

re: #46 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

How do you fix something as big as this if there is a fuck up.

I guess I’m being a coward…

…but a fire extinguisher won’t help here.

Perhaps hyperbole… but… dang this could get really messed up.

What especially galls me about this whole debate is the idea that we’re treading into unknown, dangerous (and quite likely Marxist) waters here. The rest of the first world has successfully had universal health care for decades! But Americans are so durned special and rightfully wary of anything furrin’ that we couldn’t possibly learn from them. GURK!

Honestly, after this goes through, everyone will accept it, happily live with it, and forget it. This time next year we’ll have another outrage to focus on. In 30 years, the Republicans will be defending it as their own.

Mad Al-Jaffee Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:15:58pm

re: #47 Killgore Trout

I actually prefer the US version because I can relate to it more. I’ve lived in the UK, but never worked in an office there. Love the original though, and the US version has really gone downhill. This will probably be the last season I’ll watch.

freetoken Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:16:56pm

re: #53 abbyadams

That has been a very slowly, and somewhat quietly, growing issue. The US has grown so much, yet our legislative branch of government (and to a lesser extent, the judicial branch too) has not been able to kept pace.

Certain progressive talking heads have raised the issue, and expressed an opinion that the US ought to dump the Senate and go to a parliamentarian system.

I do not think totally doing away with the Senate is a good idea, but I could see reducing its powers might help in this country. I’d like to see the Senate bow out of normal legal and fiscal legislation, and be limited to treaties, senior appointments, and impeachments.

Killgore Trout Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:16:59pm

re: #56 Obdicut

I didn’t like the US version. I’ll give the UK one a try. Thanks for pointing it out.

I really like the UK version. The American Office boss is kinda funny but he overplays it. He’s a likable retard (apologies for using the word to those offended). The Boss is the UK version is a sad and unlikable person but it comes off much funnier to me.

Stanley Sea Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:17:00pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

It’s certainly not going to be perfect and there will be tweaks to the system once we figure out what works and what doesn’t. I think it will be much worse if we do nothing. One of the most infuriating Republican talking points to me is when Republicans say there isn’t a problem. People who buy their own insurance or have pre-existing conditions are in very serious trouble.

Cantor yesterday:

“all of us share the concerns when people are allegedly wronged in our health care system.”

Allegedly? What a slap in the face, and what an ass.

reine.de.tout Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:17:22pm

re: #57 reine.de.tout

Listening to TV - is New York’s Gov Patterson resigning?

Dropping his bid for election.

wrenchwench Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:17:31pm

re: #53 abbyadams

recusancy because an Affluent Asian from California is in no way able to really represent a poor white from Alabama.

I disagree. A person who is empathetic can represent the interests of another person who is racially and economically different from themselves. And a person who is the same race and income could be a terrible representative.

abbyadams Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:18:00pm

re: #59 Obdicut

Hadn’t thought about it that way. I’m sick to death of one Senator being elevated to king (or queen) for a vote.

reine.de.tout Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:18:09pm

re: #66 wrenchwench

I disagree. A person who is empathetic can represent the interests of another person who is racially and economically different from themselves. And a person who is the same race and income could be a terrible representative.

I agree with you.

Shiplord Kirel Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:18:16pm

re: #38 freetoken

Yes, Dobson is the complete package.

His go-to guy on science and educational issues, Del Tackett, runs a website (and publishes material) by the name of “Truth Project”. Del can make some of the most mind-numbing of statements wrt science, and yet the Truth Project publishes material used by homeschoolers to teach their children.

Thanks! I had never heard of Del Tackett before this. He is a piece of work. Here he is holding forth on evolution during a lengthy trip through the Grand Canyon. In a typical creo strawman statement, he overstates the scientific consensus about the age of the Canyon (by a factor of 100) when he claims that the “current estimate for the age of the Grand Canyon is 1.2 billion years.” Actually, some of the rocks in the canyon are at least that old but the canyon itself is a comparatively recent formation in geological terms.

Killgore Trout Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:19:20pm

I’m reminded what a great site Hulu is. The commercials are few and very short (15-30 seconds). They really have the formula down. Very watchable.

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:19:22pm

re: #67 abbyadams

It would also mean that there were more truly crazy ones too, probably— more Bachmanns— but I think it’d mean there were a lot more moderates and a lot more relatively ordinary people.

Oh well, total pipe dream, I think.

recusancy Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:19:31pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

It’s certainly not going to be perfect and there will be tweaks to the system once we figure out what works and what doesn’t. I think it will be much worse if we do nothing. One of the most infuriating Republican talking points to me is when Republicans say there isn’t a problem. People who buy their own insurance or have pre-existing conditions are in very serious trouble.

It’s the Titanic defense. America is so gosh darn great that we can withstand whatever is ahead. Just keep plugging along. Oh, what’s that? You see an iceberg ahead. So what? We’re moving along now just fine. Let’s sit down and debate this from the beginning. Let’s not make any rash decisions.

It’s the same defense for doing nothing about AGW.

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:20:13pm

re: #70 Killgore Trout

Have you used Netflix at all? Ten bucks a month for all their TV (including all of the new Dr. Who and lots of the old), no commercials, quality scaled by your connection speed.

Having both of them is awesome.

Mad Al-Jaffee Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:20:15pm

re: #72 recusancy

It’s the Titanic defense. America is so gosh darn great that we can withstand whatever is ahead. Just keep plugging along. Oh, what’s that? You see an iceberg ahead. So what? We’re moving along now just fine. Let’s sit down and debate this from the beginning. Let’s not make any rash decisions.

It’s the same defense for doing nothing about AGW.

How many lifeboats do we have?

recusancy Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:20:53pm

re: #59 Obdicut

Hell, I think we might actually be better with more representatives and senators. It’d mean every individual one was less powerful, and it would be possible to get elected without a lot of money.

I actually really like that idea.

Public financing of campaigns is the only way to achieve that. But the R’s say any cap on spending is against free speech.

recusancy Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:22:08pm

re: #74 Mad Al-Jaffee

How many lifeboats do we have?

Enough for the rich people.

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:22:20pm

re: #75 recusancy

It’s not just the “R’s” who say that. Establishment Democrats are fiercely against campaign finance reform as well.

I’d rather not wander off into money-as-speech right now as a whole, though.

abbyadams Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:22:54pm

re: #66 wrenchwench

I disagree only because I truly believe that our experience is vital, and shapes our vision, thoughts, and so forth. Empathy is important, but will only get you so far. To fall back on an adage, if you haven’t walked in a person’s shoes, you can’t really represent them. In my opinion and experience, of course.

Cato the Elder Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:25:12pm

talking point : debate :: photo op : interview

abbyadams Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:26:13pm

Hope everyone has a nice weekend. I have some Olympic hockey to watch…

wrenchwench Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:26:24pm

re: #78 abbyadams

I disagree only because I truly believe that our experience is vital, and shapes our vision, thoughts, and so forth. Empathy is important, but will only get you so far. To fall back on an adage, if you haven’t walked in a person’s shoes, you can’t really represent them. In my opinion and experience, of course.

I respect your opinion. Similar experiences will be likely to create similar views.

And if you disagree with someone, you should definitely walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you’ll be a mile away when they realize you have their shoes.

/apologies to Stephen Wright

What, me worry? Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:28:02pm

re: #79 Cato the Elder

talking point : debate :: photo op : interview

Come on. Tell the truth. The temptation to sign onto her Facebook isn’t driving you insane. Well more insane than you currently are.

cliffster Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:28:23pm

GOP : Dem :: X : X

Killgore Trout Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:29:38pm

re: #73 Obdicut

Have you used Netflix at all? Ten bucks a month for all their TV (including all of the new Dr. Who and lots of the old), no commercials, quality scaled by your connection speed.

Having both of them is awesome.

I had netflix a few years ago but I never really got into mailing the discs back and ordering new ones. Now that I have highspeed internet I might give them a try again.

sandbox Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:29:44pm

The Repubs have been talking about tort reform for a long time. Why don’t the Dems incorporate that into their bill?. Add a few pages to the 2,200 bill to limit punitive damages Why is that so hard? It would make me, sandbox, happy!

recusancy Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:30:12pm

re: #85 sandbox

The Repubs have been talking about tort reform for a long time. Why don’t the Dems incorporate that into their bill?. Add a few pages to the 2,200 bill to limit punitive damages Why is that so hard? It would make me, sandbox, happy!

It’s on the table.

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:31:15pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

I haven’t even bothered to order a disc, I just watch the streaming stuff. Lots of Discovery Channel stuff on there too. Unlimited access for $10 a month. Limited but plentiful content.

Cato the Elder Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:31:23pm

re: #82 marjoriemoon

Come on. Tell the truth. The temptation to sign onto her Facebook isn’t driving you insane. Well more insane than you currently are.

Actually I never even thought about it. Truth.

I get enough crazee from my very eclectic mix of FB friends. Not to mention here… ;^)

sandbox Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:32:20pm

re: #86 recusancy

I don’t know. I heard Dick Durban yesterday. He was talking the trial lawyer’s line on punitive damages.

wrenchwench Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:32:28pm

There is one demographic that is so sorely underrepresented, I might cast an affirmative action vote for a member of it: atheists.

cliffster Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:33:31pm

re: #87 Obdicut

I haven’t even bothered to order a disc, I just watch the streaming stuff. Lots of Discovery Channel stuff on there too. Unlimited access for $10 a month. Limited but plentiful content.

How much in the way of recent movies? I head there wasn’t much out there, but I haven’t checked yet.

What, me worry? Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:34:01pm

re: #88 Cato the Elder

Actually I never even thought about it. Truth.

I get enough crazee from my very eclectic mix of FB friends. Not to mention here… ;^)

hehe I think with the 1000s of fans, you’d get drowned out, but I’d sure love to see you replying there. And OMG having the Palin fan club linked on your FB page would just be a hoot. I mean, for that alone, would be worth it.

I’m not taking my own advice, btw :)

Shiplord Kirel Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:37:34pm

Why Climate Change Denial Is Like the O.J. Trial

This is really a clever and brilliantly appropriate analogy:

The campaign against climate science has been enormously clever, and enormously effective. It’s worth trying to understand how they’ve done it. The best analogy, I think, is to the O.J. Simpson trial…
The Dream Team of lawyers assembled for Simpson’s defense had a problem: it was pretty clear their guy was guilty. Nicole Brown’s blood was all over his socks, and that was just the beginning. So Johnnie Cochran, Robert Shapiro, Alan Dershowitz, F. Lee Bailey, Robert Kardashian et al. decided to attack the process, arguing that it put Simpson’s guilt in doubt, and doubt, of course, was all they needed. Hence, those days of cross-examination about exactly how Dennis Fung had transported blood samples, or the fact that Los Angeles detective Mark Fuhrman had used racial slurs when talking to a screenwriter in 1986.

If anything, they were actually helped by the mountain of evidence. If a haystack gets big enough, the odds only increase that there will be a few needles hidden inside. Whatever they managed to find, they made the most of: in closing arguments, for instance, Cochran compared Fuhrman to Adolf Hitler and called him “a genocidal racist, a perjurer, America’s worst nightmare, and the personification of evil.”…

Similarly, the immense pile of evidence now proving the science of global warming beyond any reasonable doubt is in some ways a great boon for those who would like, for a variety of reasons, to deny that the biggest problem we’ve ever faced is actually a problem at all. If you have a three-page report, it won’t be overwhelming and it’s unlikely to have many mistakes. Three thousand pages (the length of the latest report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change)? That pretty much guarantees you’ll get something wrong.

SixDegrees Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:38:30pm

re: #8 Killgore Trout

They are probably going to consolodate the house and senate bills. It will probably fall somewhere within those to CBO assessments.

Unfortunately, the chances of any such change being a simple, linear combination as you suggest are very near zero.

recusancy Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:38:58pm

re: #89 sandbox

I don’t know. I heard Dick Durban yesterday. He was talking the trial lawyer’s line on punitive damages.

“CBO now estimates that implementing a typical package of tort reform proposals nationwide would reduce total U.S. health care spending by about 0.5 percent”
[Link: cboblog.cbo.gov…]

Also: [Link: www.newyorker.com…]

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:39:20pm

re: #91 cliffster

I don’t know, I’m not so much a recent movie guy. The thing about it is if you go “Oh, I want to watch X,” it’s unlikely to be there. But if you just want to watch something in the X genre, it’ll be there.

theheat Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:40:32pm

re: #36 Qabal

To be fair to him, his ministry does a lot of helpful things in the community in regards to supporting families and helping parents make better decisions in regards to their children. However, once they’ve got people in with the parenting and family issues, it’s a smooth transition to the political side of things.

FOTF found that if you put food on a hungry person’s table they have a captive audience to push their homophobic, anti-science, paranoid, racist, theocratic world view. There’s nothing noble about that. In fact, their motivations are quite transparent.

Food has been used very effectively to train animals. Food can be replaced with shelter or other comforts/necessities with a similar result, and FoTF knows this better than anyone. FoTF works charity like multi-level marketing.

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:40:40pm

re: #95 recusancy

I’m much more in favor of a compensation fund of the type that Atul Gawande has proposed, that would also increase transparency, and, instead of a few massive payouts, would mean that many more people who were harmed got compensated for it.

It’s covered in his book Better, I believe.

freetoken Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:42:25pm

re: #93 Shiplord Kirel

I was going to link to that piece… but held off because I disagree with a couple of things McKibben says about AGW… but the overall point is a good one: Inhofe and his gang are acting like Jonnie Cochran.

100

sandbox Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:44:58pm

re: #95 recusancy

I don’t believe it. We are talking punitive damage limits not only against Doctors but against Hospitals.

101

SixDegrees Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:45:03pm

re: #97 theheat

FOTF found that if you put food on a hungry person’s table they have a captive audience to push their homophobic, anti-science, paranoid, racist, theocratic world view. There’s nothing noble about that. In fact, their motivations are quite transparent.

Food has been used very effectively to train animals. Food can be replaced with shelter or other comforts/necessities with a similar result, and FoTF knows this better than anyone. FoTF works charity like multi-level marketing.

Around here, ACORN has a long history of working with soup kitchens.

102

ShaunP Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:45:38pm

re: #99 freetoken

I was going to link to that piece… but held off because I disagree with a couple of things McKibben says about AGW… but the overall point is a good one: Inhofe and his gang are acting like Jonnie Cochran.

Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I’m a lawyer defending a major record company, and I’m talkin’ about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you’re in that jury room deliberatin’ and conjugatin’ the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.

103

Walter L. Newton Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:46:34pm

re: #97 theheat

FOTF found that if you put food on a hungry person’s table they have a captive audience to push their homophobic, anti-science, paranoid, racist, theocratic world view. There’s nothing noble about that. In fact, their motivations are quite transparent.

Food has been used very effectively to train animals. Food can be replaced with shelter or other comforts/necessities with a similar result, and FoTF knows this better than anyone. FoTF works charity like multi-level marketing.

It’s terrible… I think the Salvation Army tries that bullshit too. You can’t be too careful.

104

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:46:35pm

re: #100 sandbox

Personal incredulity is not an argument.

105

Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:47:02pm

I was kinda busy for the health summit. Am I still gonna get fined (taxed) for not carrying gubment health care?

106

SixDegrees Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:47:48pm

re: #103 Walter L. Newton

It’s terrible… I think the Salvation Army tries that bullshit too. You can’t be too careful.

And the Capuchins.

They need to be watched.

107

Shiplord Kirel Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:47:49pm

re: #90 wrenchwench

There is one demographic that is so sorely underrepresented, I might cast an affirmative action vote for a member of it: atheists.

There has actually been a significant backward movement in this area in recent years.
A little over twenty years ago, I was shanghaid into running for mayor of a small town in an overwhelmingly Republican area of California. This came about because the old mayor’s handpicked successor, who originally ran unopposed, turned out to be a bat-guano conspiracy believer. Among other things, he told a big city TV station that the Air Force was hiding UFOs at a nearby base, and that a famous aviation designer in the area was involved in reverse-engineering the ET loot. I ran against him and ended up winning by a huge margin (238 to 94), after spending $85.40 on my campaign.

Throughout the campaign it was common knowledge that I was agnostic, while my opponent was a church elder, but this never entered into it.
Today, imho, it would impossible for a publicly declared atheist, agnostic, or infidel of any kind to win an election in anything but the most liberal areas of the country, let alone in rural district that went 91% for Reagan in 1984.

108

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:48:14pm

re: #102 ShaunP

And then it was Riedenschneider’s turn. I gotta hand it to him, he tossed a lot of sand in their eyes. He talked about how I’d lost my place in the universe; how I was too ordinary to be the criminal mastermind the D.A. made me out to be; how there was some greater scheme at work that the state had yet to unravel. And he threw in some of the old “truth” stuff he hadn’t had a chance to trot out for Doris. He told them to look at me, look at me close. That the closer they looked, the less sense it would all make; that I wasn’t the kind of guy to kill a guy; that I was The Barber, for Christsake. I was just like them - an ordinary man. Guilty of living in a world that had no place for me, yeah. Guilty of wanting to be a dry cleaner, sure. But not a murderer. He said I *was* modern man, and if they voted to convict me, well, they’d be practically cinching the noose around their own necks. He told them to look, not at the facts, but at the meaning of the facts. Then he said the facts had no meaning. It was a pretty good speech. It even had me going…

109

Ericus58 Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:48:22pm

Want to relive those past days, blowin’ down the road in your 2-door V-8 machine with your gal… and now drive a minivan or crossover with a family?

It can be your again!

Youtube Video

110

Walter L. Newton Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:48:27pm

re: #105 Cannadian Club Akbar

I was kinda busy for the health summit. Am I still gonna get fined (taxed) for not carrying gubment health care?

Tax if you are nat carry any health care of any sort.

111

webevintage Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:48:42pm

Palin really has some balls, you know.
Her kids all get some type of gov’t health care because of their Induit (?) blood (1/16th) and the youngest because of his Down Syndrome will be support his whole life by the rest of us.
Something I am perfectly happy to do, I just can’t stand how much of a hypocrite she is.
Once again it is the “I got mine, screw the rest of you” mentality that runs though the Republican/Conservative objection to the HC bills.

112

Walter L. Newton Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:48:53pm

re: #106 SixDegrees

And the Capuchins.

They need to be watched.

I know… those little monkeys!

113

freetoken Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:49:55pm

re: #111 webevintage

As long as the gubmint keeps their hands off my Social Security and Medicare I’ll be happy…

114

wrenchwench Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:50:30pm

re: #107 Shiplord Kirel

Cool! How long did you serve as mayor?

115

RadicalModerate Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:50:50pm

Olympic Hockey update - end of the first period and it’s an absolute rout.

United States 6 - Finland 0

116

webevintage Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:51:03pm

re: #82 marjoriemoon

Come on. Tell the truth. The temptation to sign onto her Facebook isn’t driving you insane. Well more insane than you currently are.

I used to be able to post on it, but no longer, I think I did not kiss her ass in the proper way.

117

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:51:04pm

re: #111 webevintage

Palin really has some balls, you know.
Her kids all get some type of gov’t health care because of their Induit (?) blood (1/16th) and the youngest because of his Down Syndrome will be support his whole life by the rest of us.
Something I am perfectly happy to do, I just can’t stand how much of a hypocrite she is.
Once again it is the “I got mine, screw the rest of you” mentality that runs though the Republican/Conservative objection to the HC bills.

The whole family gets health care through Todd’s tribal membership. And agreed, I am OK with that. And no family should go broke because they’re raising a child with Down. We can afford, as a society, to take care of the variously disabled.

But yeah, she does talk a good game about how gdf self-sufficient they are.

118

Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:51:11pm

re: #110 Walter L. Newton

Tax if you are nat carry any health care of any sort.

Well, that’s fair, NOT. I thought this was a free market society. Douchebags.

119

Vicious Babushka Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:51:19pm

re: #115 RadicalModerate

Olympic Hockey update - end of the first period and it’s an absolute rout.

United States 6 - Finland 0

Fresh meat for the Canadians.

120

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:51:47pm

re: #113 freetoken

As long as the gubmint keeps their hands off my Social Security and Medicare I’ll be happy…

I’d hate to see the gubmint meddle with your Social Security and Medicare to pay for some entitlement program.

121

theheat Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:51:52pm

re: #69 Shiplord Kirel

The Grand Canyon controversy [1] [2] was mentioned in the news awhile back.

122

What, me worry? Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:52:47pm

re: #116 webevintage

I used to be able to post on it, but no longer, I think I did not kiss her ass in the proper way.

They kicked you out? lol Wow I wish I could have witnessed it. I’m sure they have it tightly monitored.

There should be a facebook fan club “I got kicked off Palin’s FB page and all I got was this lousy t-shirt….”

123

garhighway Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:53:41pm

re: #85 sandbox

The Repubs have been talking about tort reform for a long time. Why don’t the Dems incorporate that into their bill?. Add a few pages to the 2,200 bill to limit punitive damages Why is that so hard? It would make me, sandbox, happy!

While that might be a laudable goal, it has almost nothing to do with healthcare costs.

124

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:53:41pm

re: #118 Cannadian Club Akbar

Well, that’s fair, NOT. I thought this was a free market society. Douchebags.

Should we be allowed to turn you away from an emergency room if coverage is available to you and you choose not to purchase it? Serious question.

125

webevintage Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:53:43pm

This was one of my favorite parts of the summit yesterday between the President and one of the various Republicans:

THE PRESIDENT: Let me just — there’s one thing I’ve got to — there
are a number of issues, as usual, that I’ve got significant difference
with. I’m just am curious. Would you be satisfied if every member of
Congress just had catastrophic care? Do you think we’d be better
health care purchasers? I mean, is that a change that we should make?

SENATOR BARRASSO: Yes, I think actually we would. We’d really focus
on it. You’d have more, as you say, skin in the game — and
especially if they had a savings account, a health savings account.
They could put their money into that —

THE PRESIDENT: Would you feel the same way if —

SENATOR BARRASSO: — and they’d be spending the money out of that.

THE PRESIDENT: Would you feel the same way if you were making
$40,000, or you had — that was your income? Because that’s the
reality for a lot of folks. I mean, it is very important for us —
when you say, to listen — to listen to that farmer that Tom mentioned
in Iowa; to listen to the folks that we get letters from — because
the truth of the matter, John, is they’re not premiers of anyplace,
they’re not sultans from wherever. They don’t fly into Mayo and
suddenly decide they’re going to spend a couple million dollars on the
absolute, best health care. They’re folks who are left out.

And this notion somehow that for them the system was working and that
if they just ate a little better and were better health care consumers
they could manage is just not the case. The vast majority of these 27
million people or 30 million people that we’re talking about, they
work every day. Some of them work two jobs. But if they’re working
for a small business, they can’t get health care. If they are
self-employed, they can’t get health care.

And you know what, it is a scary proposition for them. And so we
can debate whether or not we can afford to help them, but we shouldn’t
pretend somehow that they don’t need help. I get too many letters
saying they need help.

And so, I want to go to —

SENATOR BARRASSO: Mr. President, having a high-deductible plan
and a health savings account is an option for members of Congress and
federal employees —

THE PRESIDENT: If — that’s right, because members of Congress
get paid $176,000 a year.

SENATOR BARRASSO: — 16,000 employees did take advantage of that.

THE PRESIDENT: Because they —

SENATOR BARRASSO: And so, it’s the same plan —

THE PRESIDENT: — because members of Congress —

SENATOR BARRASSO: — that the Park Rangers get in the
Yellowstone National Park.

THE PRESIDENT: John — John, members of Congress are in the top
income brackets of the country. And health savings accounts I think
can be a useful tool, but every study has shown that the people who
use them are folks who’ve got a lot of disposable income. And the
people that we’re talking about don’t.

126

What, me worry? Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:54:01pm

re: #117 SanFranciscoZionist

The whole family gets health care through Todd’s tribal membership. And agreed, I am OK with that. And no family should go broke because they’re raising a child with Down. We can afford, as a society, to take care of the variously disabled.

But yeah, she does talk a good game about how gdf self-sufficient they are.

Taking care of the disabled? Oh girl, now you’re talking commie socialist crap. Tsk Tsk.

127

sandbox Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:54:32pm

re: #104 Obdicut

Good point.
What if I find a study that says more will be saved with tort reform than the study quoted? But I’m too lazy to look….

128

theheat Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:54:56pm

re: #103 Walter L. Newton

Yes, they certainly do. I read some pretty eye opening articles a couple years ago (sorry, you’d have to google) and was disgusted.

I believe in charity for charity’s sake, not for what you get in return. Period.

129

webevintage Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:55:57pm

re: #122 marjoriemoon

They kicked you out? lol Wow I wish I could have witnessed it. I’m sure they have it tightly monitored.

There should be a facebook fan club “I got kicked off Palin’s FB page and all I got was this lousy t-shirt…”

Not kicked off facebook, just no longer have the ability to post a response to her FB spewings. So now I just “share” with my FB friends and write my self important, mocking screeds to go along with Palin’s bombs of crazy.

130

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:56:09pm

re: #103 Walter L. Newton

It’s terrible… I think the Salvation Army tries that bullshit too. You can’t be too careful.

So does Hezbollah. Just to bring in the other end of the sliding scale.

131

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:56:40pm

re: #127 sandbox

You won’t. Tort reform has already been enacted in Texas, and has not achieved much. It’s been enacted in a lot of places.

Have you read this article yet? It’s an examination of severely different health care costs in two places in Texas despite the same regulatory conditions.

[Link: www.newyorker.com…]

132

Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:56:51pm

re: #124 SanFranciscoZionist

Should we be allowed to turn you away from an emergency room if coverage is available to you and you choose not to purchase it? Serious question.

I had to go to the ER once. I had a reaction to a doctors prescription. Walk in clinics weren’t open. I paid cash. And I only had to pay 1/3 of the bill for having cash

133

What, me worry? Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:57:06pm

re: #125 webevintage

I was actually thinking of taking catastrophic care when it was offered to me years ago when I was 20 something. I may have even did it one year. But no working middle class family would dare to do such a thing today.

134

Stanley Sea Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:57:36pm

re: #116 webevintage

I used to be able to post on it, but no longer, I think I did not kiss her ass in the proper way.

You were banned? Ha! Kudos for trying.

135

theheat Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:59:06pm

re: #130 SanFranciscoZionist

So does the Taliban, so did Che Guevara…

136

Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Feb 26, 2010 12:59:45pm

re: #124 SanFranciscoZionist

Should we be allowed to turn you away from an emergency room if coverage is available to you and you choose not to purchase it? Serious question.

And, it’s against the law to deny emergency service. In case you didn’t know.

137

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:00:12pm

re: #132 Cannadian Club Akbar

I had to go to the ER once. I had a reaction to a doctors prescription. Walk in clinics weren’t open. I paid cash. And I only had to pay 1/3 of the bill for having cash

Cool. What if you hadn’t had the money? I’m serious about this question, because I am trying to think through the issue.

Dude with no insurance, and thirty bucks in his savings account is brought in to the ER. Do we save his life? Why or why not?

138

recusancy Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:00:29pm

re: #100 sandbox

I don’t believe it. We are talking punitive damage limits not only against Doctors but against Hospitals.

So you don’t believe the CBO because they’re not telling you what you want to here.

139

Walter L. Newton Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:00:33pm

re: #128 theheat

Yes, they certainly do. I read some pretty eye opening articles a couple years ago (sorry, you’d have to google) and was disgusted.

I believe in charity for charity’s sake, not for what you get in return. Period.

Salvation Army too? I’m not surprised. The whole charity biz is one big scam… especially if it is connected with a faith. Why do you think that Bush was so determined to push people into faith based community groups for help? Insidious.

140

Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:01:30pm

re: #137 SanFranciscoZionist

See my #136.

141

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:02:07pm

re: #136 Cannadian Club Akbar

And, it’s against the law to deny emergency service. In case you didn’t know.

I do know that. My question is, do you support that? If so, why is it unreasonable to tax for a government service? I can see that this business of there being fines or taxes for not carrying insurance greatly upsets some people, and I am trying to think it through.

142

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:03:25pm

re: #140 Cannadian Club Akbar

See my #136.

See my 141.

143

SixDegrees Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:03:26pm

re: #132 Cannadian Club Akbar

I had to go to the ER once. I had a reaction to a doctors prescription. Walk in clinics weren’t open. I paid cash. And I only had to pay 1/3 of the bill for having cash

Universal coverage will have to be mandatory if any of the bills we’ve seen so far are to succeed. It’s the only way to ensure that those who need coverage the least - those who are, as a group, inherently healthy, like the young - pay as much as possible into the system, while not making use of it’s services.

Unfortunately, rosy predictions like this generally don’t work out well in real life. When health care becomes apparently “free,” usage rises across the board, something none of the projections of future costs has taken into account. Like Kilgore, they assume that people’s habits will not change, even when the health care environment they’re immersed in changes radically; or they assume, at worst, any such change will be minor, and linear, when in fact it is much more likely to behave like an exponential function.

144

Shiplord Kirel Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:03:28pm

re: #114 wrenchwench

Cool! How long did you serve as mayor?

Two years. We did some good stuff, like conclude a water deal that guaranteed the water supply for the foreseeable future. I also fixed potholes (personally), secured the donation of a really good emergency generator set, presided over some raucous town council meetings, and met some really interesting characters.

The latter included the late Charles K. Johnson, president of the International Flat Earth Society. Mr. Johnson was probably no relation to our esteemed Lizard Overlord, but I don’t know for sure. He was a very courteous and sincere individual and I couldn’t help liking him, insane pseudoscience notwithstanding. He was looking for elected officials who would support his views. He had presumably started with the mayor of LA and worked his way down to me. I told him I would have to take it up with our legal staff. We did not actually have a legal staff and, in fact, there was not a single lawyer in the whole town (which may be why we got anything done at all.

145

What, me worry? Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:03:31pm

re: #129 webevintage

Not kicked off facebook, just no longer have the ability to post a response to her FB spewings. So now I just “share” with my FB friends and write my self important, mocking screeds to go along with Palin’s bombs of crazy.

lol I meant kicked off Sarah’s page.

I pretty much stick to the games on FB. It’s safer. My family is very political and we’re all Dems… no problems there. Hubby’s family are all Republicans but not very political. I love them. They love me. I like to keep it that way. I leave it to my husband to do the political stuff.

146

Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:04:50pm

re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist

I do know that. My question is, do you support that? If so, why is it unreasonable to tax for a government service? I can see that this business of there being fines or taxes for not carrying insurance greatly upsets some people, and I am trying to think it through.

I haven’t used a doctor for years. (exception as we spoke of) I don’t need to be fined for not having insurance. Period. I don’t get flu shots. Or whatever flu is out there next. Tell me why I should be fined for NOT using a service.

147

garhighway Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:05:01pm

re: #127 sandbox

Good point.
What if I find a study that says more will be saved with tort reform than the study quoted? But I’m too lazy to look…

We had a discussion here on this point yesterday. The basic theory driving the tort reform argument is that if doctors are freed up from litigation worries, they will practice less defensive medicine, order fewer unnecessary tests and procedures ad therefore reduce costs.

The problem with that line of reasoning is that it has some unprovable assumptions. While there is no doubt that strict tort reform would lower providers’ malpractice insurance premiums, no one has seen any significant pass-through of those savings to consumers, and no one has ever seen such changes affect the way doctors practice medicine. The R’s offer tort reform as a way to control costs and that simply doesn’t follow in the real world.

Having said that, there are good reasons to do tort reform, and those reasons don’t just apply to doctors. But that is an entirely different subject.

148

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:05:03pm

re: #143 SixDegrees

Unfortunately, rosy predictions like this generally don’t work out well in real life. When health care becomes apparently “free,” usage rises across the board, something none of the projections of future costs has taken into account. Like Kilgore, they assume that people’s habits will not change, even when the health care environment they’re immersed in changes radically; or they assume, at worst, any such change will be minor, and linear, when in fact it is much more likely to behave like an exponential function.

Can you cite anything that demonstrates that?

149

Cato the Elder Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:05:22pm

re: #105 Cannadian Club Akbar

I was kinda busy for the health summit. Am I still gonna get fined (taxed) for not carrying gubment health care?

What “gubment health care”? There is no such thing in the bill.

150

What, me worry? Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:05:29pm

re: #137 SanFranciscoZionist

Cool. What if you hadn’t had the money? I’m serious about this question, because I am trying to think through the issue.

Dude with no insurance, and thirty bucks in his savings account is brought in to the ER. Do we save his life? Why or why not?

Of course we do. In city hospitals anyway. It’s covered either in taxes or by insurance premiums by those who do pay.

151

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:05:31pm

re: #146 Cannadian Club Akbar

You’re not answering her question, though.

152

Randall Gross Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:05:43pm

7.3-magnitude earthquake has struck Japan’s southern coast, near Okinawa. A tsunami warning has been issued for several small islands.

153

Pete(Detroit) Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:05:48pm

re: #49 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, maybe old. People doCAN gain wisdom with age.

Fixed it for ya.
Ted Kennedy, John Dingle and John Conyors all come to mind as ‘wisdom challanged’

The reason we really want congress to start over is that one of the easy ways to reduce COST is to reduce USE - get people invested in staying healthy, and seeing a Dr when you have a small lung infection, before you get pneumonia. If someone else (ie EVERY else) is picking up the tab (single payer - which, agreed, is not likely on the table at this time) there is NO motivation for people to go to Dr for regular checkups, and wind up seeking attention only for catastrophic situations. Which is where we are now, w/ folks in Emergency rooms. Where’s the change in that? Or the savings?

154

Walter L. Newton Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:05:52pm

re: #130 SanFranciscoZionist

So does Hezbollah. Just to bring in the other end of the sliding scale.

I’ll back back later. One of the local food banks is at the door collecting food for their charity.

I’ve gotta go kick some ass.

155

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:05:55pm

re: #144 Shiplord Kirel

Two years. We did some good stuff, like conclude a water deal that guaranteed the water supply for the foreseeable future. I also fixed potholes (personally), secured the donation of a really good emergency generator set, presided over some raucous town council meetings, and met some really interesting characters.

You might have gotten the vote of a friend of mine. She wrote a letter demanding that the then-mayor of Oakland get his ‘skinny white ass’ down to her street to fill her potholes personally.

Because she is a politically correct young woman, she clarified in the letter that she has a large white ass, and that she was writing on behalf of her neighbors, whose asses are various sizes and colors.

156

recusancy Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:06:10pm

re: #146 Cannadian Club Akbar

I haven’t used a doctor for years. (exception as we spoke of) I don’t need to be fined for not having insurance. Period. I don’t get flu shots. Or whatever flu is out there next. Tell me why I should be fined for NOT using a service.

You don’t have to use the service. You just have to pay into it. If we’re going to cover pre existing conditions then healthy people have to pay in as well or the insurance companies would go bankrupt.

157

theheat Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:06:37pm

re: #139 Walter L. Newton

It’s amazing how much devotion you can purchase with a plate of spaghetti. Spaghetti’s relatively cheap. A pot can buy a whole lotta devotion, if even the insincere kind.

158

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:07:17pm

re: #146 Cannadian Club Akbar

I haven’t used a doctor for years. (exception as we spoke of) I don’t need to be fined for not having insurance. Period. I don’t get flu shots. Or whatever flu is out there next. Tell me why I should be fined for NOT using a service.

Still not answering my question. Say you go broke and then get hit by a truck. Should you be admitted to the ER?

159

SixDegrees Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:07:23pm

re: #146 Cannadian Club Akbar

I haven’t used a doctor for years. (exception as we spoke of) I don’t need to be fined for not having insurance. Period. I don’t get flu shots. Or whatever flu is out there next. Tell me why I should be fined for NOT using a service.

No, no, no - you’re not thinking right! You won’t be fined - you’ll get a tax BENEFIT as a reward for buying into the system! See?

Er, wait…

160

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:08:04pm

re: #149 Cato the Elder

What “gubment health care”? There is no such thing in the bill.

Oh, Cato, stop talking about what’s actually IN the bill. We’re talking about what we know that bill to be in our hearts.

161

ShaunP Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:08:21pm

re: #153 Pete(Detroit)

Fixed it for ya.
Ted Kennedy, John Dingle and John Conyors all come to mind as ‘wisdom challanged’

The reason we really want congress to start over is that one of the easy ways to reduce COST is to reduce USE - get people invested in staying healthy, and seeing a Dr when you have a small lung infection, before you get pneumonia. If someone else (ie EVERY else) is picking up the tab (single payer - which, agreed, is not likely on the table at this time) there is NO motivation for people to go to Dr for regular checkups, and wind up seeking attention only for catastrophic situations. Which is where we are now, w/ folks in Emergency rooms. Where’s the change in that? Or the savings?

re: #143 SixDegrees

Universal coverage will have to be mandatory if any of the bills we’ve seen so far are to succeed. It’s the only way to ensure that those who need coverage the least - those who are, as a group, inherently healthy, like the young - pay as much as possible into the system, while not making use of it’s services.

Unfortunately, rosy predictions like this generally don’t work out well in real life. When health care becomes apparently “free,” usage rises across the board, something none of the projections of future costs has taken into account. Like Kilgore, they assume that people’s habits will not change, even when the health care environment they’re immersed in changes radically; or they assume, at worst, any such change will be minor, and linear, when in fact it is much more likely to behave like an exponential function.

Two posts, both arguing against the same thing, but that completely contradict one another…

162

Walter L. Newton Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:08:29pm

re: #157 theheat

It’s amazing how much devotion you can purchase with a plate of spaghetti. Spaghetti’s relatively cheap. A pot can buy a whole lotta devotion, if even the insincere kind.

I almost missed your comment. I’ll back back later. One of the local food banks is at the door collecting food for their charity. I’ve gotta go kick some ass.

163

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:09:07pm

re: #153 Pete(Detroit)

You seriously think that people have no motivation to go to the doctor before it becomes catastrophic, as long as they don’t have to pay?

So they’ll just sit around watching their infected finger turn black and get blood poisoning, because, hey, it’ll be no more expensive to them in the end?

Can you show any proof that people in countries with single-payer act in the manner you describe?

164

Randall Gross Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:09:29pm

Tsunami waves expected imminently on Okinawa, Amami, Tokara islands of Japan after major earthquake - Japan Meteorological Agency

165

Cato the Elder Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:09:58pm

re: #93 Shiplord Kirel

Why Climate Change Denial Is Like the O.J. Trial

This is really a clever and brilliantly appropriate analogy:

Not bad.

Is OJ still in jail? I don’t follow the news enough to know.

What pained me most about the Nicole trial was how many of my black friends took it as a sign of great justice when he got off.

166

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:10:17pm

re: #161 ShaunP

Heh. I noticed that too. Battle of the talking points.

167

recusancy Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:11:07pm

re: #166 Obdicut

Heh. I noticed that too. Battle of the talking points.

Throw at wall. If it doesn’t stick. Try again.

168

Randall Gross Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:11:24pm

(CNN) — A 7.0-magnitude earthquake struck Japan’s Ryukyu Islands early Saturday, the U.S. Geological Survey reported.

The quake was centered about 6 miles (10 km) deep and struck at 5:31 a.m. about 53 miles (85 km) from Okinawa.

169

theheat Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:12:01pm

re: #162 Walter L. Newton

Or, you could just smile and give them some food, if that’s the spirit they’re dispensing it. I think food banks are wonderful. I think anyone who gives things to the needy and asks nothing in return is wonderful.

Charity without strings.

170

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:12:07pm

re: #150 marjoriemoon

Of course we do. In city hospitals anyway. It’s covered either in taxes or by insurance premiums by those who do pay.

That’s sort of my point. :)

171

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:12:36pm

re: #154 Walter L. Newton

I’ll back back later. One of the local food banks is at the door collecting food for their charity.

I’ve gotta go kick some ass.

You do that.

172

Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:12:37pm

re: #158 SanFranciscoZionist

Still not answering my question. Say you go broke and then get hit by a truck. Should you be admitted to the ER?

An ER cannot deny service to anyone. Does the truck guy have insurance?

173

Vambo Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:12:46pm

I don’t have time to read all the comments, but I’m guessing that some idiot has, (just like in previous posts), claimed that Republicans were not allowed to have any input in the current bill.

So here it is.

House Minority Leader John Boehner tweeted that Democrats “do not implement a single major GOP reform that would lower costs for families and small businesses.”

But three of the 11 pages in the plan President Barack Obama released Monday focus on tackling “waste, fraud and abuse” — chock-full of Republican ideas.

Seven of the 14 proposals in that section are credited to a House bill authored by Illinois Republican Rep. Mark Kirk. Another proposal to create a comprehensive database of sanctions against doctors for misusing Medicaid and Medicare was lifted from the Republican Study Committee.

Obama took the idea for a real-time database of claims — to more quickly detect possible fraudulent payments — from an amendment authored by Illinois Republican Rep. Peter Roskam.

Read more: [Link: www.politico.com…]

174

Randall Gross Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:13:05pm

[Link: earthquake.usgs.gov…]

175

Cato the Elder Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:13:11pm

re: #146 Cannadian Club Akbar

I haven’t used a doctor for years. (exception as we spoke of) I don’t need to be fined for not having insurance. Period. I don’t get flu shots. Or whatever flu is out there next. Tell me why I should be fined for NOT using a service.

I haven’t had a car accident in years. Why the fuck should I have to pay for car insurance?

176

Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:14:06pm

re: #175 Cato the Elder

I haven’t had a car accident in years. Why the fuck should I have to pay for car insurance?

You don’t need to if you walk.

177

Ericus58 Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:14:48pm

re: #164 Thanos

Tsunami waves expected imminently on Okinawa, Amami, Tokara islands of Japan after major earthquake - Japan Meteorological Agency

a fairly shallow quake, and only 55 miles from Naha….. spent more than one deployment there, lovely island - good memories

178

SixDegrees Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:15:17pm

re: #153 Pete(Detroit)

Fixed it for ya.
Ted Kennedy, John Dingle and John Conyors all come to mind as ‘wisdom challanged’

The reason we really want congress to start over is that one of the easy ways to reduce COST is to reduce USE - get people invested in staying healthy, and seeing a Dr when you have a small lung infection, before you get pneumonia. If someone else (ie EVERY else) is picking up the tab (single payer - which, agreed, is not likely on the table at this time) there is NO motivation for people to go to Dr for regular checkups, and wind up seeking attention only for catastrophic situations. Which is where we are now, w/ folks in Emergency rooms. Where’s the change in that? Or the savings?

I disagree. The experience in countries with socialized medicine has been a deluge of people visiting doctors for every little thing, often things like scratches and headaches that they otherwise would have self-treated or ignored if the services wasn’t available at little or no perceivable cost. I’d do the same thing.

Britain, I believe, just recently began discussing instituting office visit copays, not so much to defray the costs to the system as to introduce a disincentive to consumers from using the otherwise “free” service. Here, prescription copays were introduced for the same reason - to steer consumers to the copay-free generic equivalents, and away from the much more expensive proprietary versions of drugs. Otherwise, consumers - faced with “equal” costs - have no incentive to choose the cheaper alternative.

179

webevintage Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:16:04pm

re: #136 Cannadian Club Akbar

And, it’s against the law to deny emergency service. In case you didn’t know.

right.
and that means we all end up paying for the uninsured, who unlike you, do not have the money to pay for their ER visit and care if they end up being admitted.

That is one of the reasons for the mandate.
large pool, cheaper premiums for those who are part of it.
In the end less money is spent.

here is the Kiaser thingiee to tell folks how much of a subsidy they will get:
[Link: healthreform.kff.org…]

180

Randall Gross Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:16:25pm

Nothing expected in US, but Warnings are issued in Japan

181

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:16:46pm

re: #176 Cannadian Club Akbar

I think you’re missing the point of SFZ’s questions.

She’s not asking you what the current law is about emergency rooms, but your ideal.

Should someone who is dead broke still receive emergency room treatment? They are not able to pay. In fact, with a lot of people, we know they will probably never be able to pay it off, statistically. So, should they be treated?

182

recusancy Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:16:48pm

re: #178 SixDegrees

I disagree. The experience in countries with socialized medicine has been a deluge of people visiting doctors for every little thing, often things like scratches and headaches that they otherwise would have self-treated or ignored if the services wasn’t available at little or no perceivable cost. I’d do the same thing.

Britain, I believe, just recently began discussing instituting office visit copays, not so much to defray the costs to the system as to introduce a disincentive to consumers from using the otherwise “free” service. Here, prescription copays were introduced for the same reason - to steer consumers to the copay-free generic equivalents, and away from the much more expensive proprietary versions of drugs. Otherwise, consumers - faced with “equal” costs - have no incentive to choose the cheaper alternative.

Who is talking about getting free service? Britain is a truly socialized health care system. We aren’t trying to do that.

183

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:16:52pm

re: #172 Cannadian Club Akbar

An ER cannot deny service to anyone. Does the truck guy have insurance?

OK, I guess I’m not making the question explicit enough, or you don’t want to answer it.

184

SixDegrees Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:17:04pm

re: #176 Cannadian Club Akbar

You don’t need to if you walk.

Well, you don’t have to pay health insurance, if you’re dead.

At least, there haven’t been any such proposals.

Yet.

185

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:17:17pm

re: #178 SixDegrees

Again, do you have anything backing this up?

186

reidr Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:17:29pm

re: #176 Cannadian Club Akbar

You don’t need to if you walk.

Are you tell him to go kill himself? Harsh!

187

subsailor68 Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:17:38pm

Afternoon all! Can’t stay long, but thought you guys may be interested in this article from U.S.A. Today on the issues facing various European health care entities:

Europe’s free health care has a hefty price tag

Some interesting things in the article.

188

ShaunP Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:18:19pm

re: #174 Thanos

[Link: earthquake.usgs.gov…]

I was going to make a joke about antiscience and plate tectonics being a fraud.

Then I remembered that the earth is only 5,000 years old…

189

What, me worry? Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:19:12pm

Actually, our city hospital in Miami, Jackson Memorial is in dire straits. It’s facing a projected $229 million loss this year. Jackson is a huge complex of a hospital with every kind of care imaginable. There is an A-1 burn center where people from all over the country are flown in. The care is exceptional, but as a city hospital, it doesn’t have any bells and whistles, and of course you see the homeless, indigent and uninsured there.

They decided to stop dialysis for about 200 indigent patients, sending approx 100 to other hospitals, but about 90 were illegal or in the process of becoming legal and they cut them off clean. I don’t know what’s to become of them. They may be dead already.

Jackson’s directors were supposed to consider a 5% pay reduction to their 6 digit salaries and guess what? They said no way. One of the women on the board had the nerve to say on a local newscast last weekend that “we can’t just throw money at this problem.” Oh we can’t can we? What she meant was we can’t throw MY money at the problem!

190

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:19:25pm

re: #182 recusancy

Who is talking about getting free service? Britain is a truly socialized health care system. We aren’t trying to do that.

Something that practically no one opposed to the present HC bill(s) seems to be willing to acknowledge. THERE IS NO NATIONAL HEALTHCARE SYSTEM PROPOSED.

191

What, me worry? Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:19:28pm

re: #170 SanFranciscoZionist

That’s sort of my point. :)

I know it was hehe…

192

SixDegrees Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:19:55pm

re: #182 recusancy

Who is talking about getting free service? Britain is a truly socialized health care system. We aren’t trying to do that.

That’s why “free” is in quotes. I toyed with constructs like “perceptually free,” but figured they were too clumsy when simply quoting the single word was sufficient. It’s also why I qualified my statement - it may have been some other country that has never charged copays, but is currently considering them in order to reduce demand.

193

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:20:34pm

re: #187 subsailor68

Afternoon all! Can’t stay long, but thought you guys may be interested in this article from U.S.A. Today on the issues facing various European health care entities:

Europe’s free health care has a hefty price tag

Some interesting things in the article.

Interesting, and I shall read it, but I want to emphasize once more that we are not gonna be getting a national free health-care service.

194

wrenchwench Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:21:44pm

re: #144 Shiplord Kirel

I also fixed potholes (personally)

My kind of mayor! I think they should have pothole-fixing competitions instead of these silly candidates’ forums.

195

recusancy Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:22:27pm

re: #192 SixDegrees

That’s why “free” is in quotes. I toyed with constructs like “perceptually free,” but figured they were too clumsy when simply quoting the single word was sufficient. It’s also why I qualified my statement - it may have been some other country that has never charged copays, but is currently considering them in order to reduce demand.

So you’re arguing a straw man.

196

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:23:20pm

re: #195 recusancy

So you’re arguing a straw man.

Or at least, vague information.

197

ShaunP Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:23:35pm

re: #187 subsailor68

Afternoon all! Can’t stay long, but thought you guys may be interested in this article from U.S.A. Today on the issues facing various European health care entities:

Europe’s free health care has a hefty price tag

Some interesting things in the article.

High cost, but less babies die there:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

I imagine that there are other benefits that having a generally healthier populace has on productivity, quality of life, etc…

198

Cato the Elder Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:23:52pm

re: #193 SanFranciscoZionist

Interesting, and I shall read it, but I want to emphasize once more that we are not gonna be getting a national free health-care service.

Also, no one in his right mind who isn’t a lying shill for the status quo has ever claimed that health care in Britain or other places with (booga-booga!) socialized medicine is “free”.

Of course it ain’t free. They just pay for it differently. In a way that makes far more sense than what we do. Unless you’re an insurance-company executive.

199

cliffster Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:24:23pm

Life is a leap of faith. Spread your arms, hold your breath, and always trust your cape

Youtube Video

200

SixDegrees Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:24:33pm

re: #195 recusancy

So you’re arguing a straw man.

Not at all. Go back and read what I’ve written. You’re the one who’s changing the topic.

201

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:24:40pm

re: #199 cliffster

Life is a leap of faith. Spread your arms, hold your breath, and always trust your cape

[Video]

No capes!

202

subsailor68 Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:24:52pm

re: #193 SanFranciscoZionist

Interesting, and I shall read it, but I want to emphasize once more that we are not gonna be getting a national free health-care service.

I take your point, but it could be argued that the National Health Service in Britain is not a national free health-care service either, as it is funded from (among other things) income tax and a car-park tax.

The issues in the article have more to do with government interference in health care in general, and what has been learned in various countries such as Britain, France, Switzerland, and so on.

Not an argument for or against government participation - simply observations on what has transpired. So, I’m not touting it as anything but one specific resource for thinking things through.

203

Slap Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:25:14pm

re: #177 Ericus58

I was an Oki kid — lived there from ‘66 to ‘70, late elementary school age. I recall it as a combination of bizarre and beautiful….it was always thrilling to drive by KAFB and spot the tail end of an SR71 behind a fence, or watch the folks who brought their cars over (nuts, but go figure) running down the runways to blow the carbon out of their engine systems periodically….

I think, however, that my worldview was forever skewed by watching Bonanza simulcasts on a Japanese TV station, then turning down AFRTS to listen to Little Joe (poorly) overdubbed in Japanese — which, I now realize in retrospect, wasn’t nearly as odd as Hop Sing being overdubbed in Japanese….

I hope that the island and its people survive and thrive.

204

Ericus58 Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:25:34pm

Obama May Use U.S. Contracts to Pressure Companies on Wages
Bloomberg 02/26/2010
Authors: Holly Rosenkrantz and Roger Runningen

“Feb. 26 (Bloomberg) — The Obama administration may use the government’s $500 billion in annual purchasing power to pressure companies for improved wages and benefits, affecting contractors from Lockheed Martin Corp. to small businesses seeking work.

Lockheed of Bethesda, Maryland, the world’s largest defense contractor, was the biggest recipient of U.S. government work in fiscal 2009, followed by Boeing Co. of Chicago, according to an administration Web site.”

205

cliffster Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:25:39pm

re: #201 SanFranciscoZionist

No capes!

Wow, you really dislike capes.

206

webevintage Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:26:54pm

re: #205 cliffster

Wow, you really dislike capes.

Well, you know what Edna Mode said about capes…

207

What, me worry? Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:27:03pm

re: #170 SanFranciscoZionist

That’s sort of my point. :)

So let me get this straight then. Republicans will support the stand against abortion, killing unborn babies, but they won’t support live, hard working people who can’t afford insurance and healthcare? Now that’s a head scratcher.

Last time I did such an analogy I was told that the babies were innocents and didn’t deserve to die. I had my arguments with that, but I will never understand why they seemingly support the deaths of individuals whose only crime has been poverty. And without insurance, that’s exactly what a lot of these people face, is death.

208

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:27:21pm

re: #202 subsailor68

I take your point, but it could be argued that the National Health Service in Britain is not a national free health-care service either, as it is funded from (among other things) income tax and a car-park tax.

The issues in the article have more to do with government interference in health care in general, and what has been learned in various countries such as Britain, France, Switzerland, and so on.

Not an argument for or against government participation - simply observations on what has transpired. So, I’m not touting it as anything but one specific resource for thinking things through.

As I said, interested. I just feel as though each time we go through this discussion there’s a great deal of discussion about whether Canada or Britain’s system works, as though we were contemplating something even remotely similar. Which we aren’t.

209

subsailor68 Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:27:54pm

re: #197 ShaunP

High cost, but less babies die there:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

I imagine that there are other benefits that having a generally healthier populace has on productivity, quality of life, etc…

Hi ShaunP! I tend to agree with you that lifestyle differences probably have something to do with overall health. I’ve spent a good deal of time in Britain over the years, and folks (generally those in smaller towns of course) tend to buy fresh daily, from the grocer, butcher, etc. rather than large amounts of processed foods.

Well, guess we have to discount steak and kidney pie, and those huge breakfasts though.

;-)

210

Qabal Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:28:06pm

OT: 1.2 million Americans are going to lose their unemployment benefits and COBRA health coverage starting on Monday because a single Republican Senator, Jim Bunning, refuses to release a hold on the legislation to extend it:

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com…]

He also complained that he was missing a basketball game because of the debate about it.

211

Vambo Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:29:16pm

here it is… the best system in the world:

[Link: www.sfgate.com…]

While Anthem Blue Cross has been taking the heat for proposing rate increases of up to 39 percent on individual consumers, other health insurers have stunned some small businesses with hikes that in some cases exceed 75 percent.

212

Vambo Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:29:54pm

re: #210 Qabal

OT: 1.2 million Americans are going to lose their unemployment benefits and COBRA health coverage starting on Monday because a single Republican Senator, Jim Bunning, refuses to release a hold on the legislation to extend it:

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com…]

He also complained that he was missing a basketball game because of the debate about it.

what a waste of flesh.

213

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:30:13pm

re: #209 subsailor68

Hi ShaunP! I tend to agree with you that lifestyle differences probably have something to do with overall health. I’ve spent a good deal of time in Britain over the years, and folks (generally those in smaller towns of course) tend to buy fresh daily, from the grocer, butcher, etc. rather than large amounts of processed foods.

Well, guess we have to discount steak and kidney pie, and those huge breakfasts though.

;-)

Britain’s urban people, especially the working class, eat the most incredibly overprocessed, vitamin-free dreck it has ever been my sad horror to witness. So I’d want to see some actual nationwide statistics on that.

214

cliffster Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:30:17pm

re: #206 webevintage

Well, you know what Edna Mode said about capes…

Hahaha, ok got it. Nice work SFZ. Been awhile since I saw that and didn’t watch that closely.

215

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:31:18pm

re: #198 Cato the Elder

Well said, Cato.

We already have socialized medicine. We just pay for it ass-backwards.

216

Pete(Detroit) Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:31:34pm

re: #124 SanFranciscoZionist

Should we be allowed to turn you away from an emergency room if coverage is available to you and you choose not to purchase it? Serious question.

Turn away? perhaps not. Charge your ass? Including wage garnishment? you betchya.
Of course, there’s abuses of that, too…

217

RadicalModerate Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:32:12pm

Well, here’s some good news at least - Tony Perkins’ latest anti-gay tirades have generated some consequences.

Tony Perkins of Family Research Council Bumped From National Prayer Luncheon

218

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:32:33pm

re: #200 SixDegrees

Have you found anything that backs up your claims yet?

219

cliffster Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:32:45pm

heh. How awfulit was for Bunning to mention the basketball game. Just terrible.

220

Ericus58 Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:32:54pm

re: #203 Slap

Beware of the Habu…..
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
It was also the nic given to the SR-71 at Kadena.

there were area’s of Kadena that we didn’t venture into… the magazine area had lot’s of acres.

I remember with fondness stopping on the bridge before Gate 2 and getting a stuffed cup of chicken skewers for a buck….

221

What, me worry? Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:32:59pm

re: #216 Pete(Detroit)

Turn away? perhaps not. Charge your ass? Including wage garnishment? you betchya.
Of course, there’s abuses of that, too…

What if you make no wage?

222

subsailor68 Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:33:01pm

re: #213 SanFranciscoZionist

Britain’s urban people, especially the working class, eat the most incredibly overprocessed, vitamin-free dreck it has ever been my sad horror to witness. So I’d want to see some actual nationwide statistics on that.

As I noted, my observations were based on travels to smaller towns and villages. I’d sure agree with ya when talking about - heck, more than just the working class - folks living in the larger industrial areas and cities. Some of the crap in their Tesco (I think that’s it) stores was amazingly awful.

223

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:33:37pm

re: #216 Pete(Detroit)

That’s a dodge, though. Many people will never be able to pay back the true cost of the emergency room visit.

224

Charles Johnson Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:33:38pm

Just for fun, today I figured out how to watermark videos before uploading to YouTube. The first one is now posted above:

Youtube Video

I used Fireworks CS4 to create the watermark image, then Quicktime 7 Pro to paste it into the video. Then I adjusted some video properties to make the watermark transparent, exported it to MOV format, and there you have it.

(Quicktime 10, the version that comes with Snow Leopard, doesn’t have the editing features of QT 7 Pro. QT Player 7 is included on the Snow Leopard DVD under Extras or something like that, so Apple obviously realized there was still a use for it.)

225

theheat Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:33:49pm

re: #207 marjoriemoon

I will never understand why they seemingly support the deaths of individuals whose only crime has been poverty. And without insurance, that’s exactly what a lot of these people face, is death.

Because they don’t support failed capitalists. You know, it’s abut personal responsibility, and all that sort; they’re not going to fund people too lazy to read Tony Robbins books.
//

Agreed. The rabid anti-abortionists typically support sperm meeting an egg, but not walking/talking full term pregnancies with a pulse.

226

Vambo Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:34:07pm

re: #219 cliffster

heh. How awfulit was for Bunning to mention the basketball game. Just terrible.

Shows you where his priorities are as a public servant, no?

227

Pete(Detroit) Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:35:09pm

re: #136 Cannadian Club Akbar

And, it’s against the law to deny emergency service. In case you didn’t know.

Current law, yes - remember, things are changing..

228

What, me worry? Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:35:21pm

re: #225 theheat

Because they don’t support failed capitalists. You know, it’s abut personal responsibility, and all that sort; they’re not going to fund people too lazy to read Tony Robbins books.
//

Agreed. The rabid anti-abortionists typically support sperm meeting an egg, but not walking/talking full term pregnancies with a pulse.

LOL thanks for the giggle :)

229

cliffster Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:35:25pm

re: #226 Vambo

Shows you where his priorities are as a public servant, no?

Not really. Same kind of ridiculous thing people jump on Obama for. Can you believe he BOWED??

230

Cannadian Club Akbar Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:35:39pm

re: #224 Charles

Me no understand geek stuff.
/

231

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:35:46pm

re: #224 Charles

That’s cool. You could even make specific watermarks for the loonies. Screechingharpycam.

232

Vambo Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:35:56pm

re: #225 theheat

Agreed. The rabid anti-abortionists typically support sperm meeting an egg, but not walking/talking full term pregnancies with a pulse.

It’s sexism more than anything else. There was a story from Florida last month about a woman who miscarried, and was sued by a lawyer representing her dead fetus. I wish I was making it up.

233

Eclectic Infidel Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:36:07pm

Quick question, since it all seems to boil down to money, how much is our country/govt spending on the Iraq & Afghanistan wars per year?

234

HoosierHoops Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:36:08pm

re: #211 Vambo

here it is… the best system in the world:

[Link: www.sfgate.com…]

I like the Dutch healthcare system.. Everybody pays a 125-150E every month for health care.. Unemployed? It comes out of your unemployment check.. Everybody pays for healthcare..
The Dutch live longer than all Europeans and Americans…81.Something years on average..

235

ShaunP Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:36:09pm

re: #226 Vambo

Shows you where his priorities are as a public servant, no?

Actually, the Bunning thing was overblown. He was utterly nasty in his response, but he was making an argument about unemployment funds coming out of the stimulus funds that kind of makes sense.

Poorly executed, but he doesn’t give a fuck; he’s not running for reelection…

236

Vambo Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:36:39pm

re: #229 cliffster

Not really. Same kind of ridiculous thing people jump on Obama for. Can you believe he BOWED??

explain.

237

ShaunP Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:37:24pm

re: #227 Pete(Detroit)

Current law, yes - remember, things are changing..

Wait, did you just argue that hospitals should be allowed to turn away patients?

238

Bagua Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:37:41pm

Speaking of socialised medicine.

My friend just had a surgery in Britain, two actually over the last two years with the majority of that period being on waiting lists. The surgeries were successful and professionally done, though in both cases the doctors were foreign as who else wants to work for the NHS.

But because of the extensive wait time one of the results is a life changing permanent partial paralysis that the surgeon specifically blamed on the wait time between diagnosis and surgery. Add to that 2 years of suffering through agonizing discomfort caused by the wait for the procedures. No he didn’t die as a result, and mortality rates for the two conditions are probably similar in the US, but what price having your life disrupted by a two year wait is pain and the disability from the delay?

It was also interesting that the second operation removed residual pain from the first, which predated it but had to be postponed as the second condition appeared during the 9 months of wait for the first operation. At the time I saw a connection between the two which is somewhat supported now, suggesting one operation, or at least the severity of that condition which left the permanent nerve damage, was unnecessary. The surgeon at the time disagreed with me.

239

cliffster Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:37:48pm

re: #236 Vambo

explain.

It’s pretty obvious.. people get outraged over the stupidest things.

240

Political Atheist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:38:15pm

re: #224 Charles

Nice!
Charles may I suggest you go for the left bottom corner? Less competition with the other added graphics.

241

brookly red Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:38:22pm

re: #210 Qabal

OT: 1.2 million Americans are going to lose their unemployment benefits and COBRA health coverage starting on Monday because a single Republican Senator, Jim Bunning, refuses to release a hold on the legislation to extend it:

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com…]

He also complained that he was missing a basketball game because of the debate about it.

Interesting…
“Bunning says he doesn’t oppose extending benefits — he just doesn’t want the money that’s required added to the deficit. He proposes paying for the 30-day extension with stimulus funds.”

but at this point I don’t think we need 30 day extensions… things are not going to get better in 30 days.

242

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:38:24pm

re: #233 eclectic infidel

Quick question, since it all seems to boil down to money, how much is our country/govt spending on the Iraq & Afghanistan wars per year?

That’s OK. It says in the Constitution that the federal government provides for the common defense. It also says something about the general welfare, but that meant something different in the eighteenth century—at least, it didn’t mean anything you spent money on.

//OK, this debate makes me slightly cranky

243

Vambo Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:39:03pm

re: #235 ShaunP

Actually, the Bunning thing was overblown. He was utterly nasty in his response, but he was making an argument about unemployment funds coming out of the stimulus funds that kind of makes sense.

Poorly executed, but he doesn’t give a fuck; he’s not running for reelection…

ok then. that was literally the first I heard about it, and I replied within seconds.

244

Interesting Times Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:39:10pm

re: #208 SanFranciscoZionist

As I said, interested. I just feel as though each time we go through this discussion there’s a great deal of discussion about whether Canada or Britain’s system works, as though we were contemplating something even remotely similar. Which we aren’t.

Speaking of Canada’s system, here’s a video I posted yesterday (but on a thread that was in its death throes) which pretty much turns the “OMG all canadians cross the border cuz their own system is so horrible” meme on its head:

Youtube Video

245

Randall Gross Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:39:11pm

re: #224 Charles

Just for fun, today I figured out how to watermark videos before uploading to YouTube. The first one is now posted above:

[Video]I used Fireworks CS4 to create the watermark image, then Quicktime 7 Pro to paste it into the video. Then I adjusted some video properties to make the watermark transparent, exported it to MOV format, and there you have it.

(Quicktime 10, the version that comes with Snow Leopard, doesn’t have the editing features of QT 7 Pro. QT Player 7 is included on the Snow Leopard DVD under Extras or something like that, so Apple obviously realized there was still a use for it.)

Very cool, I wonder if W Movie Maker does that? I”ll have to see now…

246

Cato the Elder Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:39:12pm

re: #210 Qabal

OT: 1.2 million Americans are going to lose their unemployment benefits and COBRA health coverage starting on Monday because a single Republican Senator, Jim Bunning, refuses to release a hold on the legislation to extend it:

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com…]

He also complained that he was missing a basketball game because of the debate about it.

I have a suggestion about what he can do with a basketball…

247

cliffster Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:39:17pm

We need Guy Clark to come in and fix Health Care. He knows how to make stuff work. Stuff that works

Youtube Video

248

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:40:51pm

re: #238 Bagua

And people in the US don’t get surgeries because their insurance denies the procedure, like my friend who’s been refused surgery to treat the chronic pain in his wrist. The insurance company’s rationale is that since he has full functionality, pain meds are all he needs. It seems clear to me, that’s a financial decision on their part.

To save up money to pay for the operation on his own would take a lot longer than two years.

249

HoosierHoops Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:41:48pm

re: #224 Charles

I think you’ll really like this read about doing special effects Charles..

MSNBC Video

250

Cato the Elder Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:42:02pm

re: #234 HoosierHoops

I like the Dutch healthcare system.. Everybody pays a 125-150E every month for health care.. Unemployed? It comes out of your unemployment check.. Everybody pays for healthcare..
The Dutch live longer than all Europeans and Americans…81.Something years on average..

They’re also taller on average, and blonder, too.

251

Stanley Sea Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:42:47pm

re: #229 cliffster

Not really. Same kind of ridiculous thing people jump on Obama for. Can you believe he BOWED??

Bowing didn’t affect unemployment $ or Cobra.

252

cliffster Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:42:47pm

re: #250 Cato the Elder

They’re also taller on average, and blonder, too.

and dutcher

253

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:43:19pm

re: #250 Cato the Elder

They’re also taller on average, and blonder, too.

They make excellent cheese, and ice-skate proficiently. I understand, also, that in the Netherlands, even the littlest children speak Dutch.

254

Cato the Elder Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:43:31pm

re: #238 Bagua

Only to address one aspect of your post:

Foreign doctors! WITWCT?

255

cliffster Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:44:08pm

re: #251 Stanley Sea

Bowing didn’t affect unemployment $ or Cobra.

neither did mentioning a basketball game

256

Cato the Elder Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:44:58pm

re: #239 cliffster

It’s pretty obvious.. people get outraged over the stupidest things.

I don’t believe the outrage is about the basketball thing.

If you were unemployed and/or on COBRA, you would be pretty pissed about the hold, though.

257

Slap Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:45:10pm

re: #220 Ericus58

Well, here’s a perspective on where my 11-year old head was at: one of my MOST vivid memories (apart from 25-cent matinees on Saturdays at the Camp Kue theater) is my COMPLETE delight at discovering Tamiya and Hasegawa model kits in the local toy stores. For a model junky, there was no greater gift than to know you could get good ones any time without having to wait for Christmastime when Toyland opened at the PX.

258

HoosierHoops Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:45:26pm

re: #250 Cato the Elder

They’re also taller on average, and blonder, too.

My buddy in the Netherlands is 6’9”
They eat really healthy food and the woman are beautiful
/.But I wish they all could be California girls

259

Liberal Classic Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:45:40pm

In related news:

Latest Sarah Palin Speech Opens Sixth Seal

[Link: www.theonion.com…]

260

Cato the Elder Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:46:08pm

re: #241 brookly red

Interesting…
“Bunning says he doesn’t oppose extending benefits — he just doesn’t want the money that’s required added to the deficit. He proposes paying for the 30-day extension with stimulus funds.”

but at this point I don’t think we need 30 day extensions… things are not going to get better in 30 days.

Tell that to an unemployed person whose rent is due next week.

261

deadletterboy Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:46:39pm

re: #210 Qabal

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a better Bond villain impression.

262

Vambo Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:47:02pm

re: #256 Cato the Elder

I don’t believe the outrage is about the basketball thing.

If you were unemployed and/or on COBRA, you would be pretty pissed about the hold, though.

the basketball thing is the rage-red cherry on top, though. Oh GAWD, I actually have to help some unemployed proles? I’m missing basketball!!

263

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:47:06pm

re: #254 Cato the Elder

Heh. I just noticed that part. That’s hilarious.

264

Jeff In Ohio Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:47:27pm

re: #238 Bagua

My daughters allergist, GI, and orthopedist are all foreign. My primary care physician is foreign. She was denied an MRI to look for soft tissue damage in her leg, so the doctor, to be safe, put her in a cast for 6 weeks, which led to hyper nerve sensitivity, which finally led to the MRI and 3 months of physical therapy that could have been avoided by the MRI upfront. Every doctor agreed the MRI was needed to avoid the cast. Every one.

Now she’s being denied integrative medicine for ongoing abdominal issues, so we’re paying out of pocket for diet, food sensitivity testing, etc.

….and what was your point?

265

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:47:51pm

re: #262 Vambo

It does sound that his proposal of using stimulus funds instead is at least less ass-hatty than just blocking it out of ideology.

But it’s still rear-end-headgear.

266

Vambo Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:48:29pm

re: #259 Liberal Classic

In related news:

Latest Sarah Palin Speech Opens Sixth Seal

[Link: www.theonion.com…]

I’ve seen that before, but upding for Cthulu ‘08.

GOP! GOP! (Great Old Ones Party)

267

brookly red Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:49:01pm

re: #260 Cato the Elder

Tell that to an unemployed person whose rent is due next week.

I am an unemployed person who’s rent is due next week…

and tell what to my self? that things are not going to get better in 30 days? well they might for me I have skills & am interviewing… but let’s face it the majority of unemployed people will not get work in 30 days.

268

Shiplord Kirel Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:49:28pm

re: #213 SanFranciscoZionist

Britain’s urban people, especially the working class, eat the most incredibly overprocessed, vitamin-free dreck it has ever been my sad horror to witness. So I’d want to see some actual nationwide statistics on that.

I have some experince with British cuisine, such as it is. I am convinced that the great English explorers, men like Drake and Hawkins, fanned out over a large part of the world mostly because they were looking for something decent to eat.

269

cliffster Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:49:41pm

re: #256 Cato the Elder

I don’t believe the outrage is about the basketball thing.

If you were unemployed and/or on COBRA, you would be pretty pissed about the hold, though.

There’s plenty of people going on about the basketball game comment. How dare he?

As for unemployment/COBRA, I see that, but at some point these things expire. Are we suggesting that we remove expiration for unemployment benefits and COBRA eligibility?

270

barflytom Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:50:09pm

re: #60 reidr

…. The rest of the first world has successfully had universal health care for decades! ….

If you replace the word “successfully” with “disastrously” you might be on to something. Having experienced NHS health “care” in Britain, I can’t muster much enthusiasm for more government involvement of any kind.
I would favour health savings accounts, insurance just for catastrophic or the most serious illnesses, and phase out medicare. I don’t see why young people should be taxed to pay medical bills for old coots who’ve failed to save enough for their old age. Let charities and church organisations take care of hard cases, and do away with the requirement for local governments to subsidise emergency rooms. Oh, and shoot all the trial lawyers. (I exaggerate there, but only slightly).
People start getting worked up about health care when it is described as a “right”, as if anyone should have a right to the services of highly trained specialists, use of sophisticated equipment, and drugs that cost hundreds of millions to develop. Nobody would try to say that everyone should have a “right” to a new Mercedes.
Almost everything that makes healthcare unnecessarily expensive has some idiot piece of government involvement as a root cause.
If Obama’s ridiculous health summit shows anything, it is that the government should not be involved in the healthcare industry - at all.

271

Bagua Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:50:16pm

re: #248 Obdicut

I agree that there are also problems with the US system. No system is perfect, private or public. My main objection to a government system is the size of the bureaucracy and the waste it creates.

Also the fact that the system is a series of compromises. For example: When the NHS was first rolled out in 1946, the only way they could get the doctors to agree was to allow them to also maintain private lists. As a result, the surgeon one is seeing, and on whose waiting list one is on, will also have a more lucrative private list which skirts the waiting lists, making the NHS patients wait even longer.

Such an arrangement is fraught with difficulties, and clearly contributes the endless problems with waiting list times. The problem being one of political accommodation and waste, as opposed to a more efficient private system. My view is that the political involvement has some limited benefit, but is bogged down by the usual problems with government run bureaucracies.

272

Randall Gross Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:50:37pm

re: #245 Thanos

Very cool, I wonder if W Movie Maker does that? I”ll have to see now…

It does but calls it a “caption”

273

wrenchwench Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:51:16pm

re: #217 RadicalModerate

Well, here’s some good news at least - Tony Perkins’ latest anti-gay tirades have generated some consequences.

Tony Perkins of Family Research Council Bumped From National Prayer Luncheon

OMG! It’s a threat to religious liberty!!!1!!

274

cliffster Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:51:17pm

re: #265 Obdicut

It does sound that his proposal of using stimulus funds instead is at least less ass-hatty than just blocking it out of ideology.

But it’s still rear-end-headgear.

I disagree completely. I like the statement. On this one thing, can we pretty please try to find a way to pay for it? Even if it’s by paying for it out of this other budget.

275

Jeff In Ohio Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:51:19pm

re: #247 cliffster

Heh, I met Guy Clark at SxSW in 1988. I was a big fan and fellow songwriter, obviously without the history (and the future). Having some mutual friends, I approached him and, without a beat, he told me to fuck off.

I love that guy. Really, I do. I play a fine version of Dublin Blues.

276

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:51:32pm

re: #268 Shiplord Kirel

I have some experince with British cuisine, such as it is. I am convinced that the great English explorers, men like Drake and Hawkins, fanned out over a large part of the world mostly because they were looking for something decent to eat.

Mainland Europeans in my school progam in Britain were horrified by British food. They would make regular treks back to Germany and Sweden for food products.

277

brookly red Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:51:54pm

re: #269 cliffster

There’s plenty of people going on about the basketball game comment. How dare he?

As for unemployment/COBRA, I see that, but at some point these things expire. Are we suggesting that we remove expiration for unemployment benefits and COBRA eligibility?

my COBRA expired back in November… I had to buy my own insurance. Times are hard indeed.

278

What, me worry? Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:52:33pm

re: #248 Obdicut

And people in the US don’t get surgeries because their insurance denies the procedure, like my friend who’s been refused surgery to treat the chronic pain in his wrist. The insurance company’s rationale is that since he has full functionality, pain meds are all he needs. It seems clear to me, that’s a financial decision on their part.

To save up money to pay for the operation on his own would take a lot longer than two years.

Oh hell yea. My ins company denied my doctor’s request for an MRI for pain on my side. My doc thinks it’s either liver or gallballder related. So I’m trying to go the homeopathic route…. Silly isn’t it? I can’t afford $5000 for an MRI. I need cataract surgery too. One eye, I had to pay $3800 on my own for what was not covered by ins.

Waiting is horrible, but I think better than nothing.

279

deadletterboy Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:52:58pm

Did he also actually tell the Dems ‘Tough Shit’?

280

cliffster Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:53:02pm

re: #275 Jeff In Ohio

Heh, I met Guy Clark at SxSW in 1988. I was a big fan and fellow songwriter, obviously without the history (and the future). Having some mutual friends, I approached him and, without a beat, he told me to fuck off.

I love that guy. Really, I do. I play a fine version of Dublin Blues.

Heh, that’s cool. I’ve heard that sort of thing about him

281

Cato the Elder Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:53:21pm

re: #267 brookly red

I am an unemployed person who’s rent is due next week…

and tell what to my self? that things are not going to get better in 30 days? well they might for me I have skills & am interviewing… but let’s face it the majority of unemployed people will not get work in 30 days.

And thanks to this senator, they might lose their insurance coverage and their cars or homes, too.

What was your point again?

282

theheat Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:53:50pm

re: #270 barflytom

Are you suggesting that letting the current health care industry mind the store, and nix Medicaid, everything would resolve itself?

283

Liberal Classic Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:53:54pm

re: #266 Vambo

I’ve seen that before, but upding for Cthulu ‘08.

GOP! GOP! (Great Old Ones Party)

I need to update my graphic to Cthulu 2012. :)

284

Ericus58 Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:54:29pm

re: #257 Slap

Well, here’s a perspective on where my 11-year old head was at: one of my MOST vivid memories (apart from 25-cent matinees on Saturdays at the Camp Kue theater) is my COMPLETE delight at discovering Tamiya and Hasegawa model kits in the local toy stores. For a model junky, there was no greater gift than to know you could get good ones any time without having to wait for Christmastime when Toyland opened at the PX.

Being 51 now, I remember very much even in my midwestern world of rural Michigan fondly looking at Tamiya kits… they were the best! Oh, the diorama’s we made…. ;)

You had a good time I’m sure.

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HoosierHoops Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:55:12pm

re: #279 deadletterboy

Did he also actually tell the Dems ‘Tough Shit’?

I think he was telling America tough Shit.. Dang I’d love to play a game of Basketball with Bunning..
/ I predict pain

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Jeff In Ohio Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:55:39pm

re: #282 theheat

Are you suggesting that letting the current health care industry mind the store, and nix Medicaid, everything would resolve itself?

Absolutely, if everyone had a Leprechaun and pot of gold.

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Eclectic Infidel Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:55:58pm

re: #260 Cato the Elder

Tell that to an unemployed person whose rent is due next week.

You know something, why should Bunning give a damn one way or another. Congress is permanently out to lunch, without much of an idea, if any, of the level of misery that is out there in the job market right now. Senators and Reps don’t have to concern themselves with paying rent, dealing with unaffordable medical care, or feeding their families. I know people (friends) who are educated and unemployed who are about to lose UI benefits, and are already considering rather drastic measures to just pay rent and put food on the table. I’m fed up with all this whining about cost - and it’s not like the US is operating in the dark here. Other countries are making national health care work for them. Why on Earth can’t our legislative body take the best laid plans and adopt them for use here? We ruthlessly spend billions on foreign wars but heaven f-cking forbid the notion of advocating affordable health care. It gets me crazy.

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Bagua Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:56:10pm

re: #254 Cato the Elder

Only to address one aspect of your post:

Foreign doctors! WITWCT?

The issue with the foreign doctors is that the medical industry is having a hard time recruiting locally. Thus they are desperate to recruit and there is often a language barrier.

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Cato the Elder Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:56:24pm

OK, just discovered that “Cat Ballou” is available on Netflix Instant.

Seeing Jane Fonda in that role at the age of nine was what made me realize I liked girls. My life was never the same after that.

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brookly red Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:56:27pm

re: #281 Cato the Elder

And thanks to this senator, they might lose their insurance coverage and their cars or homes, too.

What was your point again?

I had no point I said it was interesting… your are the one that said I had a point, what is your point? the economy sucks & people are hurting? Duh?

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Stanley Sea Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:56:40pm

re: #274 cliffster

I disagree completely. I like the statement. On this one thing, can we pretty please try to find a way to pay for it? Even if it’s by paying for it out of this other budget.

Why did they vote lockstep against paygo then?

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Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:57:19pm

re: #271 Bagua

You told an anecdote designed to say that a friend of your suffered due to wait times in Britain. However, it’s been shown by myself and others that similar stories are present here. You are now saying that your main argument is something else entirely. If your original argument wasn’t actually your argument, why’d you make it?

Your fascination with government bureaucracies while ignoring health insurance company bureaucracies is kind of baffling, as well. Private health insurance companies have incentives to be massively bureaucratically inefficient; the longer they can delay clearing a treatment, the more likely the person will have lost their insurance or moved to a different insurance company, and therefore not have to pay.

There is no free market incentive for health insurance companies to be efficient from the standpoint of their consumers. They are rent-seekers.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

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ShaunP Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:57:56pm

I don’t usually down ding people just because I disagree, but this part really irked me:
re: #270 barflytom

…People start getting worked up about health care when it is described as a “right”, as if anyone should have a right to the services of highly trained specialists, use of sophisticated equipment, and drugs that cost hundreds of millions to develop. Nobody would try to say that everyone should have a “right” to a new Mercedes…

You are basically saying that you are willing to let people die if they aren’t wealthy enough. People scream elitism for non issues all the time, but that is the very definition of it…

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theheat Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:58:34pm

re: #286 Jeff In Ohio

If they’d planned better, invested in gold like Glenn Beck says, and attended enough Tony Robbins seminars, damn straight - they’d have two leprechauns.
//

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Cato the Elder Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:58:42pm

re: #286 Jeff In Ohio

Absolutely, if everyone had a Leprechaun and pot of gold.

Those who have leprechauns and pots of gold don’t give a fuck about the rest of us.

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Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:59:27pm

re: #277 brookly red

Stay healthy.

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brookly red Fri, Feb 26, 2010 1:59:42pm

re: #295 Cato the Elder

Those who have leprechauns and pots of gold don’t give a fuck about the rest of us.

so stop voting for them…

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brookly red Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:00:31pm

re: #296 Obdicut

Stay healthy.

that is the plan… you too.

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Cato the Elder Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:00:52pm

re: #288 Bagua

The issue with the foreign doctors is that the medical industry is having a hard time recruiting locally. Thus they are desperate to recruit and there is often a language barrier.

Or maybe it’s because Britain is an open society with great universities and medical schools?

Last time I went to the hospital it seems I remember there were a lot of furrin’ docs here, too.

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Cato the Elder Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:02:35pm

re: #290 brookly red

I had no point I said it was interesting… your are the one that said I had a point, what is your point? the economy sucks & people are hurting? Duh?

The economy sucks, people are hurting, and one fucking dickwad senator can put a hold on legislation that could help people make it a little bit longer and maybe not end up on the street.

Duh-whoopty-fucking-wuh.

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Bagua Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:03:10pm

re: #292 Obdicut

You told an anecdote designed to say that a friend of your suffered due to wait times in Britain. However, it’s been shown by myself and others that similar stories are present here. You are now saying that your main argument is something else entirely. If your original argument wasn’t actually your argument, why’d you make it?

Your fascination with government bureaucracies while ignoring health insurance company bureaucracies is kind of baffling, as well. Private health insurance companies have incentives to be massively bureaucratically inefficient; the longer they can delay clearing a treatment, the more likely the person will have lost their insurance or moved to a different insurance company, and therefore not have to pay.

There is no free market incentive for health insurance companies to be efficient from the standpoint of their consumers. They are rent-seekers.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

I am sharing a direct experience, you are confused with arguments and political points. While I can accept that there are also problems with the US based private health care situation, you can’t seem to accept that there could also be problems with the NHS.

You would find my observations less “baffling” if you took them for their actual meaning and content, rather than trying to counter them with talking points and reading all sorts of things into them.

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Cato the Elder Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:04:29pm

re: #297 brookly red

so stop voting for them…

You don’t get to vote for insurance company executives.

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Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:04:29pm

re: #299 Cato the Elder

Gee, I seem to remember them having some kind of empire, or something, in the past, some sort of colonial places they still have ties too.

And besides, the worst foreign accent in Britain is the Glaswegian accent.

Youtube Video

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Pete(Detroit) Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:06:19pm

re: #163 Obdicut

You seriously think that people have no motivation to go to the doctor before it becomes catastrophic, as long as they don’t have to pay?

So they’ll just sit around watching their infected finger turn black and get blood poisoning, because, hey, it’ll be no more expensive to them in the end?

Can you show any proof that people in countries with single-payer act in the manner you describe?

Just got to this.
To your finger example, no, that makes NO sense.
Studies, no - just apocryphal stories I could tell - but we all know what those are worth.
I DO think there are people who will not get annuals, and have high blood pressure, high sugar, etc and be untreated if they feel that ‘when something’s wrong, I’ll get treatment.
Hell, I know a lot of people like that NOW, who have insurance NOW..
We DO know that single payer results in rationing, longer waits for treatment, and overall lower quality of service - that has been proven time and again. On 9-11, when they sealed the borders we Detroiters learned that approx 30% of local area nurses are Canadian. Living in Canada, and commuting up to an hour each way because the pay and benefits are that much better.

Ok, one story about people’s attitude toward ‘free’ care.
My college roommate is a Physical Therapist. Some years ago, a clinic he was at got a patient who was indigent / medicare / caid, what ever - “free.” She was so obese that there were infected / gangrenous bed sores between rolls of skin where she had not washed in ages. She was demanding that they set her up for replacement knees and hip because she could hardly walk. If I recall correctly, the reason she was in there in the first place was pneumonia. But she was convinced it was ‘their job’ to ‘fix’ her.
So, I *do* know that such people exist. How common is it, I don’t know. I DO know that when we convince the person most responsible for their health (me, and you) that we are the LEAST responsible, that cannot be a good thing.

Incidentally, the person above died before being well enough to get the joint surgery. Not making a value judgment, just finishing the story

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Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:07:35pm

re: #301 Bagua

I shared a direct experience as well, Bagua. I also then made a larger point, instead of simply dwelling on anecdotes.

Of course there are problems in the NHS. There are problems in every complex system on earth. That’s a rather banal truism.

Your claim that the ‘private’ system in the US is more efficient is unproven. Calling the US system ‘private’ when so many of our citizens have government-provided health care or are treated by doctors at state or county hospitals is also a bit odd.

If a person on medicaid gets seen at UCSF, is that the US private system at work? What if they have private insurance, but are still seen at UCSF?

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Pete(Detroit) Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:07:59pm

re: #165 Cato the Elder

Not bad.

Is OJ still in jail? I don’t follow the news enough to know.
.

For kidnapping / theft of the sports memorbelia? I think so - 20 - life, iirc.. long time, anyway…

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cliffster Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:08:01pm

re: #302 Cato the Elder

You don’t get to vote for insurance company executives.

Sure you do. Buy some stock in an insurance company. It’s a good idea anyways. They are going to do very well if this HCR passes.

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Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:08:09pm

re: #304 Pete(Detroit)

A simple ‘No, I can’t back up what I’m saying” would have sufficed.

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Cato the Elder Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:08:31pm

re: #304 Pete(Detroit)

Downding for believing that “physical therapist” should be capitalized.

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Bagua Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:09:08pm

re: #299 Cato the Elder

Or maybe it’s because Britain is an open society with great universities and medical schools?

Last time I went to the hospital it seems I remember there were a lot of furrin’ docs here, too.

No, the doctors were trained in Pakistan, Nigeria and Czechoslovakia for the examples I’m citing. The problem is with the industry not being such an attractive career choice combined with the massive patient loads and other restrictions the doctors are required to accept.

It is becoming the sort of profession that the British are unwilling to perform, like gardening in Texas. Thus foreigners willing to do more work for less compensation is becoming more of a necessity.

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reidr Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:10:20pm

re: #270 barflytom

If you replace the word “successfully” with “disastrously” you might be on to something. Having experienced NHS health “care” in Britain, I can’t muster much enthusiasm for more government involvement of any kind.

I appreciate your input, but I’ve heard of a bunch of stories that tell the opposite story.

I would favour health savings accounts, insurance just for catastrophic or the most serious illnesses, and phase out medicare. I don’t see why young people should be taxed to pay medical bills for old coots who’ve failed to save enough for their old age. Let charities and church organisations take care of hard cases, and do away with the requirement for local governments to subsidise emergency rooms. Oh, and shoot all the trial lawyers. (I exaggerate there, but only slightly).

Assuming charities and churches can cover all (or even most) cases is quite a stretch.

I’m no big fan of lawyers, but they probably fill an important role. Eliminating them all doesn’t do a whole lot to solve the problem anyway.

People start getting worked up about health care when it is described as a “right”, as if anyone should have a right to the services of highly trained specialists, use of sophisticated equipment, and drugs that cost hundreds of millions to develop. Nobody would try to say that everyone should have a “right” to a new Mercedes.

Good grief, health care is a little different than luxury cars. We, as a civilized society, get to define “rights”. Maybe the collective we see it as a moral imperative and good for all of us to ensure that everyone can get access to health care. I’d rather live in (and pay my share towards) such a society than one where some percentage of the population can rot.

Almost everything that makes healthcare unnecessarily expensive has some idiot piece of government involvement as a root cause.

Yes, because corporations and the free market can do no wrong. They’re just never free enough to work their magic!

If Obama’s ridiculous health summit shows anything, it is that the government should not be involved in the healthcare industry - at all.

If you mean Republicans shouldn’t be involved, I’d tend to agree. They’re lazy and not good at governing.

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Cato the Elder Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:10:33pm

re: #310 Bagua

No, the doctors were trained in Pakistan, Nigeria and Czechoslovakia for the examples I’m citing. The problem is with the industry not being such an attractive career choice combined with the massive patient loads and other restrictions the doctors are required to accept.

It is becoming the sort of profession that the British are unwilling to perform, like gardening in Texas. Thus foreigners willing to do more work for less compensation is becoming more of a necessity.

A lot of our furrin’ docs here were trained overseas too. I suppose that’s because the pay here sucks so bad and everybody’s afraid of gubmint interference.

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Bagua Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:15:31pm

re: #312 Cato the Elder

A lot of our furrin’ docs here were trained overseas too. I suppose that’s because the pay here sucks so bad and everybody’s afraid of gubmint interference.

The US tends to get the best and brightest, one chooses the best doctors in a private system. The UK tends to get those will to work under the conditions, there is little choice, you get assigned your doctor. The issue is not the presence of foreign doctors, which can be a good thing, but rather the reliance on them because the industry is not attractive to work for.

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ShaunP Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:19:35pm

re: #313 Bagua

The US tends to get the best and brightest, one chooses the best doctors in a private system. The UK tends to get those will to work under the conditions, there is little choice, you get assigned your doctor. The issue is not the presence of foreign doctors, which can be a good thing, but rather the reliance on them because the industry is not attractive to work for.

I have a hard time accepting this generality on face value when life expectancy and child mortality rates are better in the UK than they are here…

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barflytom Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:26:29pm

re: #293 ShaunP

..You are basically saying that you are willing to let people die if they aren’t wealthy enough…

That happens all the time - right now, and under all sorts of different systems. You can find a story every day of the week in Britain, for example, about someone expiring while they’re on a waiting list for treatment. Having third parties, whether government or private insurance, pay for something tends to cause resources to be misallocated. Not everyone can afford a new Merc every year, but almost everyone can get some sort of basic transport, because the supply tends to match the demand. If the government imposed some combination of price controls and subsidies on the whole auto industry, the predictable results would be shortages and higher prices. If you try to exempt healthcare from the basic laws of economics, you make things worse not better.

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Bagua Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:30:59pm

re: #305 Obdicut

I shared a direct experience as well, Bagua. I also then made a larger point, instead of simply dwelling on anecdotes.
Of course there are problems in the NHS. There are problems in every complex system on earth. That’s a rather banal truism.

We both gave example and made points, the difference is that I accept yours whereas you are determined to fault mine. Whatever, it is what it is and speaks for itself, as does every individual data point. One doesn’t always need a neat wrapper and a ‘link’ to ‘prove’ that some larger argument is the winning one, we are comparing differences here and I am providing perspective on the UK system.

Your claim that the ‘private’ system in the US is more efficient is unproven.

The massive waiting lists on the NHS, a long term problem, is the best proof that their system is less efficient. As is the fact that waste, and problems with the NHS are perennial political issues.

Calling the US system ‘private’ when so many of our citizens have government-provided health care or are treated by doctors at state or county hospitals is also a bit odd.

I am specifically contrasting the NHS with private insurance in the US. Anyone with government health care, would not be an example of private insurance. There is private and public health care in the US.

If a person on medicaid gets seen at UCSF, is that the US private system at work? What if they have private insurance, but are still seen at UCSF?

Again, medicare, medicaid, VA, are not examples of private insurance, a portion of the US population is on government run health care. As to a private person seeing a doctor in an University hospital, the circumstances vary, often the doctors, and even some nurses, are private contractors who handle their own billing or have arrangements with the hospital. Thus they have use of the hospital, but they are not necessarily employed by the hospital and maintain their own practice.

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Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:31:18pm

re: #313 Bagua

Again, the state teaching hospitals have a lot of the best and the brightest, and they are not ‘private’. So when you keep calling the US system private, you are, in fact, wrong.

318

Pete(Detroit) Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:33:23pm

re: #221 marjoriemoon

What if you make no wage?

That’s a scratcher, indeed.
Should ‘society’ be paying for you if you have no benefit to ‘society’? My fundamental libertarian senses take a darkly Dickonsonian twist that really competes w/ “basic humanity.”
I suppose, ideally, I’d like to see private charities set up for this, and keep the government out of it. When I give to a charity, or volunteer at a soup kitchen, or what ever, I can feel good about doing good. When there’s a government program, I tend to get an attitude of ‘I pay taxes not to have to deal w/ street people’…
So, to answer your question, I don’t know. It goes to one’s basic concept of the inherant worth of another life. And to look at a person at any particular point, and make a judgement, well that’s not fair - today’s ‘bum’ may be tomorrow’s entreprenurial rich, and vice versa.

Also, not sure if you posted it , or someone else - “without treatment, these people will die”
Um, bad news? even WITH treatment, we’re ALL going to die.
Life is 100% fatal, so far as I know.
The only question is how, and when.

And someone keeps bringing up that we’re not talking about a Canada / GB style of ‘single payer’ - and the only response to that is “no, not at the moment - but what do you think the ‘government option’ *is*? “

319

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:33:30pm

re: #316 Bagua

s to a private person seeing a doctor in an University hospital, the circumstances vary, often the doctors, and even some nurses, are private contractors who handle their own billing or have arrangements with the hospital. Thus they have use of the hospital, but they are not necessarily employed by the hospital and maintain their own practice.

Please name a single University hospital where the doctors are ‘private contractors.’

I am specifically contrasting the NHS with private insurance in the US.

Bafflingly, given that the NHS is not an insurance system but an actual medical care delivery system, and not related to anything being proposed in the US.

320

Pete(Detroit) Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:34:35pm

re: #309 Cato the Elder

Downding for believing that “physical therapist” should be capitalized.

oh, it’s only capped in abbreviation “P.T.”? Like M.D. or D.D.S?
Hm, makes sense - OK I’ll take it.

321

Bagua Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:34:44pm

re: #314 ShaunP

I have a hard time accepting this generality on face value when life expectancy and child mortality rates are better in the UK than they are here…

I addressed this above and previously. The issue is not necessarily mortality rates, rather wait times, and inconvenience that involve suffering, not death, which is more difficult to quantify.

The other issue is the vastly different populations. The US has a very different genetic group than the UK. Even more important, obesity is a much larger problem in the US, and it is a major risk factor complicating a number of the biggest killers. This skews the results considerably.

322

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:36:42pm

re: #321 Bagua

Please link to anything that backs up your claim. Cocktail napkins not accepted.

323

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:38:28pm

re: #313 Bagua

The US tends to get the best and brightest, one chooses the best doctors in a private system. The UK tends to get those will to work under the conditions, there is little choice, you get assigned your doctor. The issue is not the presence of foreign doctors, which can be a good thing, but rather the reliance on them because the industry is not attractive to work for.

You get a doctor assigned? I chose mine from a directory of local GPs when I lived in Britain last, but that was more than a decade ago.

324

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:39:53pm

re: #318 Pete(Detroit)

And someone keeps bringing up that we’re not talking about a Canada / GB style of ‘single payer’ - and the only response to that is “no, not at the moment - but what do you think the ‘government option’ *is*? “

What do I think the government option is? Not being considered right now.

325

Bagua Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:40:06pm

re: #319 Obdicut

Memorial Hermon, for one. Visit there and see the doctor, you will receive a separate bill from the hospital and the doctor. This is true in general and is widespread, you don’t seem very familiar with how medicine is practiced and billed at American hospitals.

Teaching hospitals can be either public or private, depending on the University. If it is Harvard, private, it is a state school, public. The doctors in either would in many cases be private contractors with hospital privileges. They may accept patients with private, or public insurance.

326

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:47:03pm

re: #325 Bagua

Getting a separate bill from the hospital and doctor in no way indicates they are a ‘private contractor’. And even if we fully accepted your claim, the hospital itself is still rather obviously not ‘private’, which you then admit in your next paragraph— so the care they received was not from a ‘private’ system.

So, as I said, for you to call the US system ‘private’ is wrong. It is a mix of public and private care, public and private insurance. If you want to make claims about the superiority of the US system, you should be accurate in describing it.

Also, your information about the NHS assigning people doctors is incorrect. In fact, Canada has fewer restrictions on choosing a doctor (free to choose any in the province) than, say, an HMO.

327

reidr Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:47:16pm

re: #318 Pete(Detroit)

Updinged for being honest and open-minded!

And someone keeps bringing up that we’re not talking about a Canada / GB style of ‘single payer’ - and the only response to that is “no, not at the moment - but what do you think the ‘government option’ *is*?”

I personally think a single payer system for everyone would be the simplest and most efficient system for covering everyone. (Like Medicare For All.) That’s not what they have in GB, where the government actually does own and run all of the hospitals, etc. So a “government option” can mean different things.

But I admit I’m not an expert on this subject.

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barflytom Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:55:05pm

re: #311 reidr

..Yes, because corporations and the free market can do no wrong. They’re just never free enough to work their magic!…

Well, yes. Procedures like lasik eye surgery haven’t gone up in cost, and I suspect it’s because they’re generally paid for directly by the patient. If the computer industry was as regulated and subject to as much government interference as the health care industry, do you think you’d now be able to buy lightning fast PCs for a few hundred dollars, or that something like the iPad would have come along ? If you want to argue the case for regulated vs free markets, well, go ahead. By the way, I don’t see health care as being comparable to utilities or banks. I think comparisons with consumer products or retail services are more valid.

329

Bagua Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:55:37pm

re: #323 SanFranciscoZionist

You get a doctor assigned? I chose mine from a directory of local GPs when I lived in Britain last, but that was more than a decade ago.

With specialists there is far less choice and it is often difficult to even see a specialist. Thus GPs are often treating things that a specialist would treat in the US. For a GP there is some choice, but as you say, from a local directory based upon your residence. I am not saying that there is no choice, just less choice, more reliance on GPs, waiting lists and GPs under strain from too many patients.

There have been some reforms since you were a resident, for example, from 2005 your GP should offer you a choice of 4 hospitals where you can be treated, thus you can at least choose the hospitals and administrators you deal with, from that short list. You are not able, however, to choose your surgeon, though you may make a request.

In some cases, if you have waited longer than 6 months, you may be able to have your operation done at a different hospital. The Government and Department of Health set targets of patient waiting times, it is a well know issue.

Dr Braithwaite’s website has a few notes on his website note that he takes both NHS and private patients. Click the link “Private Appointment” and you can see him Mar 8.

330

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:56:37pm

re: #329 Bagua

And you can’t choose your surgeon in the US, unless he takes your insurance.

331

Pete(Detroit) Fri, Feb 26, 2010 2:59:10pm

re: #324 SanFranciscoZionist

What do I think the government option is? Not being considered right now.

As I noted, agreed, not on the table.
At the moment
Off at the sideboard, perhaps..

332

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 3:01:10pm

re: #330 Obdicut

And you can’t choose your surgeon in the US, unless he takes your insurance.

And at Kaiser, believe me, you don’t pick a surgeon. But by and large, my family has been well taken care of by them.

The advantage to Britain’s system, of course, is that, like Israel, they have a private practice system working alongside a government plan.

333

SanFranciscoZionist Fri, Feb 26, 2010 3:01:55pm

re: #331 Pete(Detroit)

As I noted, agreed, not on the table.
At the moment
Off at the sideboard, perhaps..

So let’s talk about what we’re actually going to do now.

334

Pete(Detroit) Fri, Feb 26, 2010 3:02:47pm

Ok, time to contemplate dinner and the inches of ‘global warming’ in the driveway.
‘Night all - it’s been fun.

335

Pete(Detroit) Fri, Feb 26, 2010 3:10:47pm

re: #333 SanFranciscoZionist

So let’s talk about what we’re actually going to do now.

What, about the 2200 page monstrosity(any of the three of them) full of ~~bribes~~ earmarks and exceptions that will cost too much and still not cover everyone, destroying the system as we know it in the process? (yes, some heavy handed hyperbole applied w/ the broadest of brushes)
Scrap it, start over.
Define the issues and tackle them in little bits that would be comprehensible.
Stop the insane deficits so that small business isn’t so afraid anymore, and they can start hiring again. (different topic, I know) Get people back to work so they can afford their own medical care.

But, of course, NONE of THAT is on the table either…
>sigh

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Bagua Fri, Feb 26, 2010 3:11:47pm

re: #332 SanFranciscoZionist

And at Kaiser, believe me, you don’t pick a surgeon. But by and large, my family has been well taken care of by them.

The advantage to Britain’s system, of course, is that, like Israel, they have a private practice system working alongside a government plan.

Except that the ‘advantage’ leads to those without the private insurance having a longer wait time while the private patients get ahead of them in line. Note that those ‘public’ NHS patients are generally paying for this system through taxation, they are not charity cases unless their income is below taxable.

337

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 3:14:25pm

re: #335 Pete(Detroit)

Health insurance costs are one of the major obstacles facing small businesses, FYI.

338

Bagua Fri, Feb 26, 2010 3:14:41pm

re: #330 Obdicut

And you can’t choose your surgeon in the US, unless he takes your insurance.

Right, except that in practice one does have far more choice. One may also pay more for a private insurance that offers more choice, and less for an HMO that has less choice. Either way, one is unlikely to have waiting lists that stretch to six months for a diagnostic procedure such as an MRI and another six months for the eventual procedure, once one has managed to actually see the specialist.

339

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 3:17:17pm

re: #338 Bagua

Right, except that in practice one does have far more choice.

You have not supported this contention in the least. You are also choosing to compare only those who are covered by insurance to those in Britain, rather than comparing our entire population, including the uncovered— who have very, very little choice.

One may also pay more for a private insurance that offers more choice, and less for an HMO that has less choice.

Given the recent hikes year after year, we pay more and more every year for the same choice, or less. I have a PPO. I am still constrained by people who take that insurance. I cannot employ a doctor who is outside the system.

Either way, one is unlikely to have waiting lists that stretch to six months for a diagnostic procedure such as an MRI and another six months for the eventual procedure, once one has managed to actually see the specialist.

So you didn’t read the thread.

340

barflytom Fri, Feb 26, 2010 3:20:36pm

re: #314 ShaunP

I have a hard time accepting this generality on face value when life expectancy and child mortality rates are better in the UK than they are here…

Life expectancy and child mortality can be a bit misleading. The murder rate, and (I think) the death rate from auto accidents are both higher in the US. The survival rates after procedures like heart surgery are significantly better in the US.
Unless you’re in a hopeless third world country, there doesn’t seem to be much of a correlation between life expectancy and the type of health care system in place.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

My objection to getting the government involved in health care is that it reduces innovation, wastes money, increases costs for the same outcome, and most importantly, is an intrusion on individual liberty.

341

Bagua Fri, Feb 26, 2010 3:21:00pm

re: #339 Obdicut

You have not supported this contention in the least.

So you didn’t read the thread.

If all you want to do is argue and condemn my comments then I’ll not bother with your comments.

I am contrasting Private health insurance with the public NHS is Britain for those who would be insured either way, I am not addressing the problem of the uninsured in the US which is a separate issue.

342

Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut Fri, Feb 26, 2010 3:24:24pm

re: #341 Bagua

If all you want to do is argue and condemn my comments then I’ll not bother with your comments.

Many of your comments are wrong, as I’ve shown. You refer to the US system as private when it is a large mix of private and public, for example. The lack of choice in the NHS, which you were incorrect about.

I am contrasting Private health insurance with the public NHS is Britain for those who would be insured either way, I am not addressing the problem of the uninsured in the US which is a separate issue.

Yes, that’s what I said. You are intentionally comparing what’s available to the insured in the US with what’s available to everyone in the UK, which is a false comparison.

Your argument is a series of unsourced claims, untrue statements, and false comparisons. However, I didn’t notice any typos.

343

Vambo Fri, Feb 26, 2010 4:08:58pm

re: #307 cliffster

They are going to do very well if this HCR passes.

I don’t even get it anymore.

Either HCR is a socialistic step towards a nightmarish American NHS, or it’s a payout to bloated private insurance corporations. Opponents of this reform really do want to have it both ways.

344

ShaunP Fri, Feb 26, 2010 5:37:52pm

re: #340 barflytom

Life expectancy and child mortality can be a bit misleading. The murder rate, and (I think) the death rate from auto accidents are both higher in the US. The survival rates after procedures like heart surgery are significantly better in the US.
Unless you’re in a hopeless third world country, there doesn’t seem to be much of a correlation between life expectancy and the type of health care system in place.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

My objection to getting the government involved in health care is that it reduces innovation, wastes money, increases costs for the same outcome, and most importantly, is an intrusion on individual liberty.

You don’t think that there is a correlation between infant mortality rates and the quality/availability of prenatal care?

345

aagcobb Fri, Feb 26, 2010 6:47:02pm

re: #49 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, it cuts both ways. If an old white guy is the best candidate, to my eye, I will darn well vote for him. But then, you think to yourself, “it can’t be possible that so many of the most qualified are old white guys”. Well, maybe old. People do gain wisdom with age.

Not all of them. My geezer senator, Jim Bunning, is single-handedly blocking the extension of unemployment benefits, and bitching because he had to miss a Kentucky Wildcats basketball game to do it.

346

aagcobb Fri, Feb 26, 2010 7:06:20pm

re: #165 Cato the Elder

Not bad.

Is OJ still in jail? I don’t follow the news enough to know.

What pained me most about the Nicole trial was how many of my black friends took it as a sign of great justice when he got off.

I guess compared to the old days when innocent blacks were lynched, seeing an obviously guilty black man acquitted was a sign of progress in a weird sort of way.

347

Dr. Shalit Fri, Feb 26, 2010 7:57:09pm

re: #12 Charles

Charles -

The Health Summit looked like a Skunk Peeing Contest to me - and a Long Boring one at that. Minds are made up - Let’s Vote. -S-

348

Lidane Fri, Feb 26, 2010 10:37:41pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

I had netflix a few years ago but I never really got into mailing the discs back and ordering new ones. Now that I have highspeed internet I might give them a try again.

Do you have an XBox 360 at all? If you do, you can stream Netflix through it on to your TV. Between that and the Zune rental service on the 360, I don’t think I’ve had a new physical DVD in my house since I gave in to my inner nerd and bought this last November.

349

Jerusalemyte Sat, Feb 27, 2010 9:55:01pm

Is this from the ONION ? Pathetic = these people are downloading their speeches from the same online high-school term paper writing site?

Spy Mode Auto

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