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Chile Quake Shifted Earth’s Axis

World • Views: 1,213

The Chilean 8.8 monster quake was so powerful it actually shifted the Earth’s axis and shortened the length of a day.

The devastating earthquake in Chile that killed almost 700 people probably also shifted the Earth’s axis, say NASA scientists, permanently making days shorter by 1.26 microseconds. But since a microsecond is one-millionth of a second, you may not have noticed.

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457 comments

1 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:24:04pm

I thought it was nano-seconds!

I’m going to have to do math again?

I was told there would be no math.

2 SixDegrees  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:24:06pm

At least spring will get here sooner.

3 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:24:13pm

I did. I was late for work by 1.13 milliseconds today. Wondered why?

4 badger1970  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:25:09pm

I wonder if a quake could actually lengthen a day?

5 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:25:16pm

Boy, that has to be a serious shift in weight.

6 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:25:26pm

Dies iræ! dies illa
Solvet sæclum in favilla:
Teste David cum Sibylla!

Quantus tremor est futurus,
Quando iudex est venturus,
Cuncta stricte discussurus!

Tuba, mirum spargens sonum
Per sepulchra regionum,
Coget omnes ante thronum.

Mors stupebit, et natura,
Cum resurget creatura,
Iudicanti responsura.

7 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:25:40pm

Ah, the quandaries of time and space:

Youtube Video

8 aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:25:42pm

The log10 base of the richter scale can understate these things. An 8.8 is 100 times more powerful than the Haiti quake. My mind is having trouble wrapping around a magnitude like that…

9 Bagua  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:26:08pm

Did the earth move for you too?

10 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:27:22pm
11 webevintage  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:28:25pm

Wow.

12 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:28:30pm

re: #6 Cato the Elder

Dies iræ! dies illa
.

Another AGW thread?

13 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:29:40pm

re: #6 Cato the Elder

Dies iræ!

I recognize that because of crossword puzzles.

“Never studied…”
-Peter Venkman

14 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:30:22pm

re: #9 Bagua

re: #10 MandyManners

RAWR!

15 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:31:08pm

re: #6 Cato the Elder

Dies iræ! dies illa

re: #12 Decatur Deb

Another AGW thread?

Nah, “God did it” was the solution to Battlestar, not climate change.

16 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:32:33pm

re: #8 aceofwhat?

The log10 base of the richter scale can understate these things. An 8.8 is 100 times more powerful than the Haiti quake. My mind is having trouble wrapping around a magnitude like that…

Momma Nature has a way of bitch slapping us in every conceivable direction. (And in some that haven’t even occurred to us.)

She’s working up something else right now…(snorting and hocking sound)

Hellooo! Yellowstone Caldera?

17 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:32:37pm

short, sweet discussion and view of the subduction zone off the Chilean coast by NASA, if anyone’s interested…

18 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:32:54pm

I read the article and I think the key word is “Probably”. I would honestly love to see the actual proof that this shortening of our day is true. NASA is one of the best science institutes out there but the word “probably” has me shaking my head in confusion. Am I alone in this observation an confusion?

19 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:33:33pm

re: #16 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Momma Nature has a way of bitch slapping us in every conceivable direction. (And in some that haven’t even occurred to us.)

She’s working up something else right now…(snorting and hocking sound)

Hellooo! Yellowstone Caldera?

yeah, that Caldera phenomenon is a little creepy. it’d be a lot creepy but i spend a good deal of time pretending that it doesn’t really exist…

20 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:33:43pm

re: #17 Aceofwhat?

Here’s the transcript…

WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT?!?!

21 keloyd  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:33:57pm

MSNBC mentioned on the way to a commercial that the earth’s axis was nudged 3 inches as well. They didn’t say if it’s more straight or more slanted though.

Cato - I’m still pecking through that figuring out the 4/5 of the words I don’t remember …got a good translation? For the rest of you, Latin is elegant (at least in the form given to us as students, maybe not the slack jawed pigeon ghetto version spoken by illiterate peasants and provincials of the real world.) The grammar and orderly pronunciation of a language with letters custom made to fit - it’s like watching the motions of a Swiss watch.

22 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:34:08pm

You know what this means?! A SHORTER WORK WEEK! HURRAY!

(if only)

23 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:34:19pm

Are we in the US prepared for a 8.8 quake? In a word? No. Sure, we’ve got good building codes and new construction is likely going to fare well, but much of our infrastructure and many buildings were built before the modern seismic codes, and the damage would be extreme in some parts of the country that have not experienced major quakes in decades.

24 Bagua  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:34:25pm

re: #12 Decatur Deb

Another AGW thread?

They need to release the data to prove the earth really moved and the days are shorter. I’ve been watching the clock at work all morning and the time is dragging on and on, if anything the day is LONGER not WARMER!

Er, I mean SHORTER! Freudian slip.

25 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:35:50pm

I feel the earth move under my feet…

Youtube Video

26 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:36:16pm

re: #21 keloyd

studying Latin makes learning lots of other languages sooo much easier. including English.

27 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:37:28pm

re: #23 lawhawk

Are we in the US prepared for a 8.8 quake? In a word? No. Sure, we’ve got good building codes and new construction is likely going to fare well, but much of our infrastructure and many buildings were built before the modern seismic codes, and the damage would be extreme in some parts of the country that have not experienced major quakes in decades.

I would say it depends on where. There’s fault lines all over this country except for down here where we just get 200 mph winds :p

Cali is better prepared for sure, than say Illinois.

28 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:37:31pm

re: #19 Aceofwhat?

yeah, that Caldera phenomenon is a little creepy. it’d be a lot creepy but i spend a good deal of time pretending that it doesn’t really exist…

For every potential catastrophe, there is a cataclysm that can render it insignificant.

29 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:37:36pm

re: #26 Aceofwhat?

studying Latin makes learning lots of other languages sooo much easier. including English.

Yup. Much appreciation for the 3 years of Latin I was able to take in high school.

30 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:37:49pm

Knowledgeable people, Those Who Know®, will naturally recognize this event as a major milestone in the nefarious and long-running HAARP conspiracy.

The long-term objective, as spelled out in the top-secret Protocols of the Elderberries of Groom Lake, is to stop the rotation of the Earth entirely and leave our enemies in perpetual darkness, after which they will have to either starve or surrender themselves to our labor camps and organ farms.
Remain steadfast, Lizardoid minions. Our Place in the Sun is at hand.

31 darthstar  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:38:41pm

After the 2004 quake, they reported a 4 inch rise in the water tables in Florida. Other. Side. Of. The. Fucking. Planet. That quake, too, slowed the planet.

It almost makes you wonder if Mother Earth is going to just get tired of the 6-7 billion human fleas on her ass some day and just shrug us all off in one big motion.

32 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:39:33pm

re: #29 torrentprime

Yup. Much appreciation for the 3 years of Latin I was able to take in high school.

I did 5 in seminary, then John XIII said “Never mind”.

33 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:39:44pm

re: #19 Aceofwhat?

May as well… Just mark my words.

We’re gonna find a way to cut through the nonsense and solve global warming, and we’re gonna find renewable sources of energy.

Birds are going to sing, the Rainforests will replenish, then?…

BANG! POW! ZOOM! And all of the other “Batman” words and there ain’t gonna be a damn thing we can do about it.

34 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:40:30pm

re: #21 keloyd

Both of my children took five years of Latin.

35 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:41:07pm
36 SixDegrees  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:41:16pm

re: #18 Dragon_Lady

I read the article and I think the key word is “Probably”. I would honestly love to see the actual proof that this shortening of our day is true. NASA is one of the best science institutes out there but the word “probably” has me shaking my head in confusion. Am I alone in this observation an confusion?

The explanation given by the Discover article is shoddy, at best. The earth’s axis may well have moved, but that doesn’t lead to a change in rotational speed. What they seem to be losing in translation is that the earth’s mass distribution changed - the earth effectively got a tiny bit smaller. Like a spinning skater pulling in her arms, this would cause the planet to spin a bit faster. Sounds like the shrinkage involved was on the order of 3 inches or so, but here the article becomes so ambiguous, it’s difficult to say what’s meant.

This doesn’t seem unreasonable. If I cared, I could calculate it, but I don’t, and I’m willing to take NASA’s word. My gut tells me it’s about right.

It should also be easily measurable, especially over a period of a few weeks. Microsecond timing accuracy is very easy to achieve, and the stars provide an excellent, “fixed” reference.

37 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:41:39pm

1.26 microseconds… so over the course of 10 years, how much time is that?

1.26 x 365 = 459.90 microseconds

459.60 x 10 = 4596.00 microseconds. How much time is that anyway?

Is that right?

I’m with FBV, where’s the pie?

38 Bagua  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:41:50pm

re: #33 Fat Bastard Vegetarian


My biggest fears are from the avian flu. I can’t imagine life without chickens.

39 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:41:57pm

re: #34 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Both of my children took five years of Latin.

We can all go about reading the inscriptions on public buildings.

40 Velvet Elvis  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:42:10pm

So I’m going to turn 40 that much sooner?

*sigh*

41 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:42:21pm

re: #33 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

WHAM!

42 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:42:37pm

re: #28 Decatur Deb

For every potential catastrophe, there is a cataclysm that can render it insignificant.

That’s it! Always look on the bright side of life! lol

43 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:42:49pm

re: #30 Shiplord Kirel

C’mon y’all! Ding that!

44 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:43:10pm

re: #41 Spare O’Lake

Yes, that’s one.

45 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:43:21pm

re: #32 Decatur Deb

I did 5 in seminary, then John XIII said “Never mind”.

LOL. I took mine in the late 80s, which made it even less socially acceptable.

46 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:43:44pm

re: #36 SixDegrees

The explanation given by the Discover article is shoddy, at best. The earth’s axis may well have moved, but that doesn’t lead to a change in rotational speed. What they seem to be losing in translation is that the earth’s mass distribution changed - the earth effectively got a tiny bit smaller. Like a spinning skater pulling in her arms, this would cause the planet to spin a bit faster. Sounds like the shrinkage involved was on the order of 3 inches or so, but here the article becomes so ambiguous, it’s difficult to say what’s meant.

This doesn’t seem unreasonable. If I cared, I could calculate it, but I don’t, and I’m willing to take NASA’s word. My gut tells me it’s about right.

It should also be easily measurable, especially over a period of a few weeks. Microsecond timing accuracy is very easy to achieve, and the stars provide an excellent, “fixed” reference.

Well, that helps. Somewhat. I appreciate your insight.

47 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:44:19pm

re: #33 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

May as well… Just mark my words.

We’re gonna find a way to cut through the nonsense and solve global warming, and we’re gonna find renewable sources of energy.

Birds are going to sing, the Rainforests will replenish, then?…

BANG! POW! ZOOM! And all of the other “Batman” words and there ain’t gonna be a damn thing we can do about it.

Seriously. I’m buying a Hummer.

48 keloyd  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:44:33pm

Ace of what - True! Mostly! I studied French and Latin back in the day, then a decade later staff for a few years who spoke Spanish, and little English. When I tried communicating in broken, pigeon Spanish, they got Latin or French words with a bad Spanish accent fairly often.

For those of you playing at home, Cato’s poem/hymn has its own Wiki page.

49 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:44:39pm

re: #37 marjoriemoon

A nano-second happens every thirty-something years.

50 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:45:19pm

re: #21 keloyd

Centurion: What is this then? Romanes eunt domus, “People called Romanes they go the house”?

Brian: It-it says, “Romans, go home”!

Centurion: No, it doesn’t! What’s Latin for “Roman”? [grabs Brian’s ear] Come on, come on!

Brian: Romanus!

Centurion: Goes like?

Brian: Annus!

Centurion: Vocative plural of annus is…?

Brian: Anni?

Centurion: [writes] Romani. And eunt? What is eunt?

Brian: “Go”! Let-

Centurion: Conjugate the verb “to go”.

Brian: Ire; eo, is, it, imus, itis, eunt!

Centurion: So eunt is…?

Brian: Third person plural, present indicative. “They go!”

Centurion: But “Romans, go home” is an order, so you must use the…?

Brian: The… imperative!

Centurion: Which is…?

Brian: I!

Centurion: [twisting Brian’s ear] How many Romans?

Brian: [yelling] I.. Plural, plural! Ite, ite!

Centurion: [writing] Ite. Domus? Nominative? But “go home”, it is motion towards, isn’t it, boy?

Brian: Dative, sir!

[The centurion promptly draws his swords and presses it against Brian’s throat. Brian yells:] No, not dative! Not the dative, sir! No! The… accusative, accusative! Domum, sir, ad domum!

Centurion: Except that domus takes the…?

Brian: The locative, sir!

Centurion: Which is?

Brian: Domum!

Centurion: [writing] Domum… -um [sheathing his sword] Understand?

[Brian nods eagerly]
Now, write it out a hundred times!

Brian: Yes, sir, thank you, sir! Hail Caesar!

Centurion: Hail Caesar. If it’s not done by sunrise, I’ll cut your balls off!

Brian: Oh, thank you, sir. Thank you, sir. Hail Caesar and everything, sir!

51 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:45:45pm

re: #42 marjoriemoon

That’s it! Always look on the bright side of life! lol

“For life is quite absurd
And death’s the final word
You must always face the curtain with a bow.
Forget about your sin - give the audience a grin
Enjoy it - it’s your last chance anyhow.

So…always look on the bright side of death
Just before you draw your terminal breath “

I lack the self control to pass up a Monty Python reference. Freely admitted.

52 darthstar  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:45:47pm

re: #38 Bagua

My biggest fears are from the avian flu. I can’t imagine life without chickens.

You and Gonzo alike.

Youtube Video

53 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:46:22pm
54 Taqyia2Me  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:46:39pm

re: #31 darthstar

Yes

55 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:46:42pm

re: #21 keloyd

MSNBC mentioned on the way to a commercial that the earth’s axis was nudged 3 inches as well. They didn’t say if it’s more straight or more slanted though.

Cato - I’m still pecking through that figuring out the 4/5 of the words I don’t remember …got a good translation? For the rest of you, Latin is elegant (at least in the form given to us as students, maybe not the slack jawed pigeon ghetto version spoken by illiterate peasants and provincials of the real world.) The grammar and orderly pronunciation of a language with letters custom made to fit - it’s like watching the motions of a Swiss watch.

A literal translation:

The day of wrath, that day
Will dissolve the world in ashes
As foretold by David and the sibyl!

How much tremor there will be,
when the judge will come,
investigating everything strictly!

The trumpet, scattering a wondrous sound
through the sepulchres of the regions,
will summon all before the throne.

Death and nature will marvel,
when the creature arises,
to respond to the Judge.

56 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:46:48pm

re: #47 Aceofwhat?

Seriously. I’m buying a Hummer.

Great. Another heavy object to fall out of the sky.

57 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:46:58pm

re: #53 MandyManners

Isn’t that illegal in most jurisdictions?

Only a crime against fashion, my dear.

;)

58 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:47:19pm

re: #53 MandyManners

Isn’t that illegal in most jurisdictions?

Only if you have to go out and purchase it.

59 Bagua  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:47:24pm

We are slowing rapidly, consider that we are already losing 2.68 microseconds as a result of the 2004 Indian Ocean Earthquake.

60 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:48:09pm

re: #48 keloyd

Ace of what - True! Mostly! I studied French and Latin back in the day, then a decade later staff for a few years who spoke Spanish, and little English. When I tried communicating in broken, pigeon Spanish, they got Latin or French words with a bad Spanish accent fairly often.

For those of you playing at home, Cato’s poem/hymn has its own Wiki page.

heh. i actually did it backwards. lived in Belgium while younger, learned French. then i took Latin in high school because acing AP French didn’t get me out of the requirement for additional language classes. good thing, in hindsight.

61 Kragar  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:48:18pm

Today’s word in earth science is Verneshot

Connection with mass-extinctions
Verneshots have been proposed as a causal mechanism explaining the statistically unlikely contemporaneous occurrence of continental flood basalts, mass extinctions, and “impact signals” (such as planar deformation features, shocked quartz, and iridium anomalies) traditionally considered definitive evidence of hypervelocity impact events.[1]

The verneshot theory suggests that mantle plumes may cause heating and the buildup of carbon dioxide gas underneath continental lithosphere. If continental rifting occurs above this location, an explosive release of the built up gas may occur, potentially sending out a column of crust and mantle into a globally dispersive, super-stratospheric trajectory. It is unclear whether such a column could stay coherent through this process, or whether the force of this process would result in it shattering into much smaller pieces before impacting. The pipe through which the magma and gas had travelled would collapse during this process, sending a shockwave at hypersonic velocity that would deform the surrounding craton.

62 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:48:55pm

re: #53 MandyManners

Isn’t that illegal in most jurisdictions?

Sure, but when the Caldera blows, you’ll be asking for a ride!

63 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:49:00pm

To everything - turn, turn, turn
There is a season - turn, turn, tur

64 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:49:02pm

Meanwhile, I just finished watching Salieri finish off Mozart.

Which, of course, is a slur on Salieri. He killed Mozart the way Hillary murdered Vince Foster.

But “Amadeus” is still a fun ride.

65 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:49:17pm

As the time for mass approached, the first altar boy arrived at the back of the church, put on a cassock and washed his hands carefully, saying “Lavabo inter innocentes manus meas”. The second boy barely madi ti in time to splah in the sink and say “Asperges mei”. The last kid, runiing late, dashed past the sink and said “Vidi aquam”.

66 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:49:34pm

re: #61 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Today’s word in earth science is Verneshot

I’m definitely buying a Hummer.

67 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:49:39pm
68 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:50:16pm
69 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:50:42pm

re: #65 Decatur Deb

As the time for mass approached, the first altar boy arrived at the back of the church, put on a cassock and washed his hands carefully, saying “Lavabo inter innocentes manus meas”. The second boy barely madi ti in time to splah in the sink and say “Asperges mei”. The last kid, runiing late, dashed past the sink and said “Vidi aquam”.

Damn it; I can *almost* do that without needing teh google.

70 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:50:51pm

re: #59 Bagua

We are slowing rapidly, consider that we are already losing 2.68 microseconds as a result of the 2004 Indian Ocean Earthquake.

Yeah and from everything the geologist are saying good old sunny So. Cal’s on the top of the list for the next big one. Good thing RWC and I stay prepared and have done for a long time now.

71 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:51:15pm

re: #51 Aceofwhat?

“For life is quite absurd
And death’s the final word
You must always face the curtain with a bow.
Forget about your sin - give the audience a grin
Enjoy it - it’s your last chance anyhow.

So…always look on the bright side of death
Just before you draw your terminal breath “

I lack the self control to pass up a Monty Python reference. Freely admitted.

hehe…

The Galaxy Song is still probably my fav. There was a fellow at our Italian Renn faire who used to dress as Galileo and go through an astronomy lesson in a big tent which was much fun. He ended the show singing The Galaxy Song. Really looked like him too!

Youtube Video

72 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:52:22pm

re: #50 Mad Al-Jaffee

You just have to wonder how much abuse of students they saw in school. They riffed on it constantly in their material.

I still think one of their best segues was in _The Meaning of Life_ where it jumped from the masters vs students rugby game straight to a World War I battlefield. I also see that as a riff on the famous “The battle of Waterloo was won on the fields of Eton” quote.

73 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:53:10pm

Show offs, the lot of you!

74 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:53:32pm

re: #69 torrentprime

It would be easier for you if I could type.

75 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:54:00pm

re: #71 marjoriemoon

But the animation montage in the middle pisses me off.

76 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:54:23pm

My friends from NYC noticed the shorter day right away!
///

77 darthstar  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:55:26pm

It doesn’t matter…the earthquakes, the tsunamis, the hurricanes, the rapture…none of it…the Breitbartpocalypse is less than two weeks away.

78 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:55:34pm

re: #73 marjoriemoon

I don’t think it would fly on “Big Government”.

79 keloyd  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:55:37pm

Oaktree-
It just shows how subjective is the concept of “abuse”. If you live in a time and region the world is a hard place, the kids need that extra dose of blood and iron to survive.

80 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:56:14pm

Ya knooow, we also have Mammoth Mountain that has been showing signs of waking up in the near future… Mammoth Lake has had an increase of carbon dioxide being put out in the last few years. A whole grove of trees has been killed on the shores of the lake. It’s awfully close to L.A. only a few hours out, not to mention Big Bear… Both are slumbering calderas… Hummm.

81 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:56:53pm

re: #75 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

But the animation montage in the middle pisses me off.

No way, the birthing thing? Why?

82 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:57:19pm
83 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:57:19pm

re: #78 Decatur Deb

I don’t think it would fly on “Big Government”.

lol Far too intellectual!

84 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:57:22pm

re: #71 marjoriemoon

hehe…

The Galaxy Song is still probably my fav. There was a fellow at our Italian Renn faire who used to dress as Galileo and go through an astronomy lesson in a big tent which was much fun. He ended the show singing The Galaxy Song. Really looked like him too!


[Video]


Can we have your liver?

85 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:58:01pm

re: #83 marjoriemoon

lol Far too intellectual!

Sekrit commie Vatican code.

86 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:58:07pm

re: #8 aceofwhat?

The log10 base of the richter scale can understate these things. An 8.8 is 100 times more powerful than the Haiti quake. My mind is having trouble wrapping around a magnitude like that…

I’ve been in something the size of the Haiti quake. I cannot imagine what an 8.8 is like.

87 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:58:57pm

re: #81 marjoriemoon

Simply because I hate it. That’s all.

Despise it.

My least favorite MP thingy ever.

88 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:59:32pm

re: #72 oaktree

You just have to wonder how much abuse of students they saw in school. They riffed on it constantly in their material.

I still think one of their best segues was in _The Meaning of Life_ where it jumped from the masters vs students rugby game straight to a World War I battlefield. I also see that as a riff on the famous “The battle of Waterloo was won on the fields of Eton” quote.

I never thought of that! True.

What about the sex lesson where John Cleese, as the professor, has sex with his wife in the classroom? I think the Meaning of Life, but I get them mixed up. Not sure how that fits in with your theory, though lol

89 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 12:59:53pm

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

I’ve been in something the size of the Haiti quake. I cannot imagine what an 8.8 is like.

Actually, i’m bored enough at work that i’m fiddling with the equation on scrap paper. I think it’s closer to 200x as powerful.

90 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:00:47pm

re: #88 marjoriemoon

I never thought of that! True.

What about the sex lesson where John Cleese, as the professor, has sex with his wife in the classroom? I think the Meaning of Life, but I get them mixed up. Not sure how that fits in with your theory, though lol

Yeah, that’s from the Meaning of Life.

91 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:01:15pm

re: #80 Dragon_Lady

I had to spend the night up at Mammoth Lakes. Went out in the middle of the night, drove a bit out of town, laid back in the grass (yeah, was in the summer) and watched the stars.

I swear, they were right there.

What a beautiful evening it was.

92 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:01:36pm

re: #64 Cato the Elder

Meanwhile, I just finished watching Salieri finish off Mozart.

Which, of course, is a slur on Salieri. He killed Mozart the way Hillary murdered Vince Foster.

But “Amadeus” is still a fun ride.


It’s a fabulous movie.

It’s also been adapted as a fun Simpsons episode, with Bart as Mozart, Lisa as Salieri, and Nelson as the young Beethoven.

93 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:01:52pm

re: #66 Aceofwhat?

I’m definitely buying a Hummer.

If I had a Hummer,
I’d hum ‘er in the morning,
I’d hum ‘er in the evening,
All over this land…

94 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:02:09pm

OT: the transcript from McDonald v Chicago is posted now.

I’m not a lawyer, nor do i aspire to be…but there are 9 extremely sharp people on that bench and i love watching them go back and forth with each other and the solicitors.

95 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:02:42pm

re: #91 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I had to spend the night up at Mammoth Lakes. Went out in the middle of the night, drove a bit out of town, laid back in the grass (yeah, was in the summer) and watched the stars.

I swear, they were right there.

What a beautiful evening it was.

yep. went bouldering in Joshua Tree a while back. slept outside. same exact feeling.

96 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:02:53pm

re: #89 Aceofwhat?

Actually, i’m bored enough at work that i’m fiddling with the equation on scrap paper. I think it’s closer to 200x as powerful.

Lets just pray that we here in Sunny So Cal don’t get slammed with one that size… 7.1 was bad enough! Literally shook us outta bed… Not fun at all! We didn’t see our cats for almost three days afterward and it too quite awhile to clean up.

97 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:03:00pm

re: #80 Dragon_Lady

This Summer-Shake & Bake bay!

98 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:03:00pm

re: #79 keloyd

I don’t buy that. I’ve just seen too many occasions involving students where a “character building” event being carried out by a superior (be it faculty or fellow students in a supervisory capacity) is more of a power trip by the controller than a true attempt at education.

I spent 10+ years doing volunteer work for a social fraternity. A lot of hazing activity is hidden under the veneer of claiming that it builds character or helps the pledges come together as a group. If teaching how to deal with adversity and challenges are the goal, there are practically always alternative routes to follow that are much more positively oriented.

99 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:03:32pm

re: #88 marjoriemoon

I never thought of that! True.

What about the sex lesson where John Cleese, as the professor, has sex with his wife in the classroom? I think the Meaning of Life, but I get them mixed up. Not sure how that fits in with your theory, though lol

There’s a story in the Talmud where a student hides under his master’s bed, because he wants to know how a Torah scholar makes love to his wife. (He gets caught and removed.)

100 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:04:00pm

re: #64 Cato the Elder

Meanwhile, I just finished watching Salieri finish off Mozart.

Which, of course, is a slur on Salieri. He killed Mozart the way Hillary murdered Vince Foster.

They had ACORN hit-teams back then?

101 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:04:32pm

re: #97 Rightwingconspirator

PIMF! Shake & Bake Baby!

102 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:04:38pm

re: #97 Rightwingconspirator

This Summer-Shake & Bake bay!

??? Where??? Enlighten me, I’m a little off right now…

103 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:04:51pm

re: #79 keloyd

Same rationalization Kevin Bacon’s character used in “Sleepers”.

104 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:05:51pm

re: #102 Dragon_Lady

Here in SoCal in the Summer.

105 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:06:17pm

re: #99 SanFranciscoZionist

There’s a story in the Talmud where a student hides under his master’s bed, because he wants to know how a Torah scholar makes love to his wife. (He gets caught and removed.)

Ack! Pretty creepy, that (no offense to any voyeurs out there).

106 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:06:55pm

re: #104 Rightwingconspirator

Ahhh. Where else would we go? Unless my Bro in L.V. wouldn’t mind a visit?

107 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:06:59pm

re: #88 marjoriemoon

I see that as a piece of solid satire. Given how horny teenage boys are supposed to be, can you see them acting all bored, note passing, and acting out while a professor actually lectured and demonstrated sex? Or that if they really did educate like that then all the “forbidden fruit” attraction of it would go out of it and the subject would then become much more mundane.

I also expect that a lot of the schools had a heavy Church of England aspect to them - so bringing some explicit sexual references into it would be a heavy prod at them as well.

108 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:07:13pm

re: #98 oaktree

I don’t buy that. I’ve just seen too many occasions involving students where a “character building” event being carried out by a superior (be it faculty or fellow students in a supervisory capacity) is more of a power trip by the controller than a true attempt at education.

I spent 10+ years doing volunteer work for a social fraternity. A lot of hazing activity is hidden under the veneer of claiming that it builds character or helps the pledges come together as a group. If teaching how to deal with adversity and challenges are the goal, there are practically always alternative routes to follow that are much more positively oriented.

My elementary school was run by nuns and a one-legged veteran of the First Cav. We learned to tough it out. It’s a hoot to think of a ten year-old telling a whining buddy: “Go see the chaplain and get your TS card punched”.

TS card= 1950 Army slang for Tough Shit form.

109 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:07:56pm

re: #101 Rightwingconspirator

PIMF! Shake & Bake Baby!

“Hi, I’m Ricky Bobby. If you don’t chew Big Red, then Fuck You.”

110 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:08:46pm

re: #105 marjoriemoon

Ack! Pretty creepy, that (no offense to any voyeurs out there).

You’re far too nice. Offending voyeurs, IMHO, is not a practice for which an apology is required…

111 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:08:48pm

re: #99 SanFranciscoZionist

There’s a story in the Talmud where a student hides under his master’s bed, because he wants to know how a Torah scholar makes love to his wife. (He gets caught and removed.)

Is that what they call master baiting?

112 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:09:52pm

re: #111 Spare O’Lake

Is that what they call master baiting?

(Said to a friend walking by my cube as this was posted)
You see, this is why I come here.

113 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:10:02pm

re: #107 oaktree

I see that as a piece of solid satire. Given how horny teenage boys are supposed to be, can you see them acting all bored, note passing, and acting out while a professor actually lectured and demonstrated sex? Or that if they really did educate like that then all the “forbidden fruit” attraction of it would go out of it and the subject would then become much more mundane.

I also expect that a lot of the schools had a heavy Church of England aspect to them - so bringing some explicit sexual references into it would be a heavy prod at them as well.

Good comments! Much agreed.

114 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:10:05pm

re: #110 Aceofwhat?

You’re far too nice. Offending voyeurs, IMHO, is not a practice for which an apology is required…

That’s why they call em voyeurs… ;-)

115 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:10:57pm

re: #112 torrentprime

(Said to a friend walking by my cube as this was posted)
You see, this is why I come here.

Ya get Monteverdi and putz jokes.

116 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:11:06pm

re: #110 Aceofwhat?

You’re far too nice. Offending voyeurs, IMHO, is not a practice for which an apology is required…

Hey dude, whatever floats yer boat!

117 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:11:28pm

re: #111 Spare O’Lake

Is that what they call master baiting?

Oh dear lol

118 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:11:50pm

re: #108 Decatur Deb

My elementary school was run by nuns and a one-legged veteran of the First Cav. We learned to tough it out. It’s a hoot to think of a ten year-old telling a whining buddy: “Go see the chaplain and get your TS card punched”.

TS card= 1950 Army slang for Tough Shit form.

It’s not all power trips and a black/white issue. There are things to be toughed out, and there are things were it has crossed the line and more harm is being done than good.

I think we can both be right on this issue. Though in the example of the rugby game in _The Meaning of Life_ is there that much redemption in a game where a group of adults utterly crush a bunch of 9-12 year-olds in a physical game. (And where it’s made clear that being forced to play in that game is a punishment?)

119 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:12:02pm

re: #111 Spare O’Lake

Is that what they call master baiting?

You are too funny! Upding for that one!

120 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:12:18pm

re: #116 marjoriemoon

Hey dude, whatever floats yer boat!

That probably would read as an endorsement of Peeping Toms then wouldn’t it. So much for me trying to be clever.

121 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:13:14pm

re: #120 marjoriemoon

Oh, that’s okay.

By the way. You should get that mole looked at.

122 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:14:16pm

re: #118 oaktree

Sorry. Opportunities to “toughen people up” often masquerade as a reason to bully someone weaker.

123 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:15:52pm

re: #118 oaktree

It’s not all power trips and a black/white issue. There are things to be toughed out, and there are things were it has crossed the line and more harm is being done than good.

I think we can both be right on this issue. Though in the example of the rugby game in _The Meaning of Life_ is there that much redemption in a game where a group of adults utterly crush a bunch of 9-12 year-olds in a physical game. (And where it’s made clear that being forced to play in that game is a punishment?)

Not familiar with that movie or game scene. Considering the young adulthood many English men of the 1914 and 1939 cohorts faced, it might have been “Good Training”.

124 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:16:24pm
The devastating earthquake in Chile that killed almost 700 people probably also shifted the Earth’s axis, say NASA scientists, permanently making days shorter by 1.26 microseconds. But since a microsecond is one-millionth of a second, you may not have noticed.


Big time is ripping us off!

125 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:16:30pm

BBL, gotta headache coming on. Gonna go lay down. Keep Laughing everyone!

126 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:16:49pm

Gotta jet… You guys are funny.

I’m still trying to figure out what to do about the 1.26 microseconds I’ll be missing each day.

And there it goessss!

127 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:16:53pm

re: #122 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sorry. Opportunities to “toughen people up” often masquerade as a reason to bully someone weaker.

Some religious right “leaders” have defended anti-gay bullying as societal self-correction, that it serves a valid purpose in educating the crowd on how people “should” act and be (ie, don’t be gay).

128 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:17:26pm

re: #122 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sorry. Opportunities to “toughen people up” often masquerade as a reason to bully someone weaker.

in addition, i am not interested in others’ “toughening my kids up”. I’ll do that myself, thankyouverymuch…i trust someone else to strike that balance correctly like i trust Andy Dick to stay off the sauce…

129 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:18:18pm

re: #127 torrentprime

Some religious right “leaders” have defended anti-gay bullying as societal self-correction, that it serves a valid purpose in educating the crowd on how people “should” act and be (ie, don’t be gay).

You’re kidding. someone said that out loud?

130 cliffster  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:18:19pm
131 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:18:43pm

re: #127 torrentprime

Okay, you can take it there if you must.

Geez…

132 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:19:35pm

re: #129 Aceofwhat?

You’re kidding. someone said that out loud?

I’m trying to find the email now; I want to back that up with a linky.

133 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:19:50pm

re: #122 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sorry. Opportunities to “toughen people up” often masquerade as a reason to bully someone weaker.

Any idiot knows that.

134 cliffster  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:20:26pm

re: #127 torrentprime

Some religious right “leaders” have defended anti-gay bullying as societal self-correction, that it serves a valid purpose in educating the crowd on how people “should” act and be (ie, don’t be gay).

Don’t be gay!

135 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:20:37pm

re: #133 Spare O’Lake

Any idiot knows that.

Which is why I said it.

136 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:21:17pm

SPLC: Rage on the Right

The radical right caught fire last year, as broad-based populist anger at political, demographic and economic changes in America ignited an explosion of new extremist groups and activism across the nation.

Hate groups stayed at record levels — almost 1,000 — despite the total collapse of the second largest neo-Nazi group in America. Furious anti-immigrant vigilante groups soared by nearly 80%, adding some 136 new groups during 2009. And, most remarkably of all, so-called “Patriot” groups — militias and other organizations that see the federal government as part of a plot to impose “one-world government” on liberty-loving Americans — came roaring back after years out of the limelight.

137 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:22:26pm

re: #136 Killgore Trout

According to the latest annual count by the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), these groups rose again slightly in 2009 — from 926 in 2008 to 932 last year — despite the demise of a key neo-Nazi group. The American National Socialist Workers Party, which had 35 chapters in 28 states, imploded shortly after the October 2008 arrest of founder Bill White for making threats against his enemies.

At the same time, the number of what the SPLC designates as “nativist extremist” groups — organizations that go beyond mere advocacy of restrictive immigration policy to actually confront or harass suspected immigrants — jumped from 173 groups in 2008 to 309 last year. Virtually all of these vigilante groups have appeared since the spring of 2005.

138 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:23:28pm

re: #129 Aceofwhat?

You’re kidding. someone said that out loud?

I’ve certainly heard objections to anti-bullying programs on the grounds that it’s an attempt to force political correctness on the kids, and the issue of homophobia comes up routinely in that debate.

139 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:25:08pm

re: #128 Aceofwhat?

in addition, i am not interested in others’ “toughening my kids up”. I’ll do that myself, thankyouverymuch…i trust someone else to strike that balance correctly like i trust Andy Dick to stay off the sauce…

You mean like when the choirmaster tells your kid to suck it up?
(NTTAWW choirmasters)

140 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:25:23pm

re: #138 SanFranciscoZionist

I’ve certainly heard objections to anti-bullying programs on the grounds that it’s an attempt to force political correctness on the kids, and the issue of homophobia comes up routinely in that debate.

Here’s what the Christian Action League has to say.

141 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:27:05pm

re: #138 SanFranciscoZionist

I’ve certainly heard objections to anti-bullying programs on the grounds that it’s an attempt to force political correctness on the kids, and the issue of homophobia comes up routinely in that debate.

Ugh. How disgusting to go there.

Bullying is to political correctness as coffee is to marsupial turds. 99.9% unrelated.

142 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:27:21pm

re: #139 Spare O’Lake

You mean like when the choirmaster tells your kid to suck it up?
(NTTAWW choirmasters)

I once read a letter to a teacher’s board by a woman teaching in a Catholic school. She was worried, because the choirmaster (as it happens), was, she felt, verbally abusive to the children, yelling at them, insulting them, and using obscene language, and when challenged, he would say that they needed to learn to imitate Jesus, who didn’t complain on the cross.

Old School.

143 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:28:05pm

Later taters.

144 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:29:21pm

re: #140 SanFranciscoZionist

Here’s what the Christian Action League has to say.

Well…are they accurate in saying that the bill under consideration only protects enumerated classes of kids?

If so, they’re right.

If not, they’re wrong.

seems straightforward, if we can figure that last part out.

146 cliffster  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:31:04pm

re: #142 SanFranciscoZionist

I once read a letter to a teacher’s board by a woman teaching in a Catholic school. She was worried, because the choirmaster (as it happens), was, she felt, verbally abusive to the children, yelling at them, insulting them, and using obscene language, and when challenged, he would say that they needed to learn to imitate Jesus, who didn’t complain on the cross.

“My God, why have you forsaken me??” That’s not complaining?

148 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:31:58pm

re: #132 torrentprime

I’m trying to find the email now; I want to back that up with a linky.

I found one of the politicians I remember reading about, but not the RR leader.

In another article, Metcalf was again quoted: “I think homosexuality is a sin. If they want to make fun of them, I don’t have a problem with it.” (Winston-Salem Journal February 4, 2003)

(Not that I think you’re all waiting breathlessly for my link, but I don’t want to post something like I did wo/backup)

149 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:32:03pm

re: #144 Aceofwhat?

Well…are they accurate in saying that the bill under consideration only protects enumerated classes of kids?

If so, they’re right.

If not, they’re wrong.

seems straightforward, if we can figure that last part out.

Just grabbed them as an example. I can try to look it up further, although I have yet to find a case where the rule in fact, protects only enumerated classes of kids. That’s their way of saying that no one’s going to hassle their child for being straight, so we don’t need to include sexual orientation.

150 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:33:26pm

re: #146 cliffster

“My God, why have you forsaken me??” That’s not complaining?

“I’m not complaining, I’m just asking…”

151 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:34:08pm

re: #142 SanFranciscoZionist

I once read a letter to a teacher’s board by a woman teaching in a Catholic school. She was worried, because the choirmaster (as it happens), was, she felt, verbally abusive to the children, yelling at them, insulting them, and using obscene language, and when challenged, he would say that they needed to learn to imitate Jesus, who didn’t complain on the cross.

Old School.

Strangely, the volunteer civilian music director was the toughest teacher in our school, harder than the nuns or military instructors. Old school Italian. We had physical punishment, but in a very well-ordered due-process. I can only remember a nun losing it once in 5 yers.

152 Taqyia2Me  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:34:56pm

re: #146 cliffster

“My God, why have you forsaken me??” That’s not complaining?

“It is finished” as He breathed his last.

153 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:35:37pm

re: #144 Aceofwhat?

Well…are they accurate in saying that the bill under consideration only protects enumerated classes of kids?

If so, they’re right.

If not, they’re wrong.

seems straightforward, if we can figure that last part out.

nah, they’re never right about that stuff. This bill, like others, protects everyone from issues arising from sexual orientation or gender identity. Period. The CAL and similar just like to pretend that orientation is only the gays (and the pedophiles and the bestial… n/m. I’ll just get angry again)

154 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:35:40pm

re: #149 SanFranciscoZionist

Just grabbed them as an example. I can try to look it up further, although I have yet to find a case where the rule in fact, protects only enumerated classes of kids. That’s their way of saying that no one’s going to hassle their child for being straight, so we don’t need to include sexual orientation.

I’m sympathetic to part of the argument, which is that if a bullying law is already on the books, why are we redoing one with specific enumerations…but then i’m not a big fan of hate crime laws, either. Make an anti-bullying law that focuses on bullying. Enumeration seems like (a) a waste of time and (b) mud in the water…but I certainly agree that their website goes waaaay too far in ascribing blame to the “homosexual agenda”.

they should stick to the fact that enumeration is wholly unnecessary to the construction of an anti-bullying construct.

155 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:36:21pm

re: #153 torrentprime

nah, they’re never right about that stuff. This bill, like others, protects everyone from issues arising from sexual orientation or gender identity. Period. The CAL and similar just like to pretend that orientation is only the gays (and the pedophiles and the bestial… n/m. I’ll just get angry again)

why not just protect everyone from bullying?

156 AlexRogan  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:36:37pm

re: #80 Dragon_Lady

Ya knooow, we also have Mammoth Mountain that has been showing signs of waking up in the near future… Mammoth Lake has had an increase of carbon dioxide being put out in the last few years. A whole grove of trees has been killed on the shores of the lake. It’s awfully close to L.A. only a few hours out, not to mention Big Bear… Both are slumbering calderas… Hummm.

Wasn’t that part of the plot to Dante’s Peak?

157 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:38:22pm

For those who are following the doctored ACORN tapes Patterico has a “defense” posted called “Debunking Some Emerging ACORN Liberal Myths”. After a quick skim it looks more like a denial rather than a fact checking but some of you might want to check it out.

158 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:40:47pm

re: #157 Killgore Trout

For those who are following the doctored ACORN tapes Patterico has a “defense” posted called “Debunking Some Emerging ACORN Liberal Myths”. After a quick skim it looks more like a denial rather than a fact checking but some of you might want to check it out.

Oh, OK.

159 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:41:15pm

re: #155 Aceofwhat?

why not just protect everyone from bullying?

Right - I mean, we have a Constitution: why did we need those civil rights laws? Isn’t everyone equal already?
/

We need to remember that laws depend partially on who enforces them. Without mention of what kinds of bullying “count”, anti-gay bullying can be dismissed as acceptable or, at least, not proscribed, and those who need protection still don’t get it. Same with racial bullying, religious, etc.

160 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:41:33pm

re: #155 Aceofwhat?

why not just protect everyone from bullying?

Yeah, and while your at it, how about some protection from wives who nag their husbands?
*steps away from open window*

161 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:43:26pm

Dog rioting. BBL

162 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:44:33pm

re: #158 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, OK.

It looks really weak to me. They might have something on the claim that O’keekfe was posing as a concerned boyfriend and not a pimp. I’ve seen the claim repeated but I don’t know the source of the information. However, It’s pretty clear that the tapes are substantially edited and I suspect Breitbart is going to find himself in legal trouble before this is over. You just can’t frame innocent people for crimes. I suspect some prosecutors are looking into this.

163 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:45:13pm

re: #157 Killgore Trout

For those who are following the doctored ACORN tapes Patterico has a “defense” posted called “Debunking Some Emerging ACORN Liberal Myths”. After a quick skim it looks more like a denial rather than a fact checking but some of you might want to check it out.

I took a quick glance. I don’t know if the ‘liberal myths’ are correct or not, but he seems to be refuting them with transcripts that he claims to be from the unedited tapes. I would like proof of that claim. If the transcripts are really from unaltered tapes, that is VERY different from if they’re not.

164 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:46:06pm

re: #159 torrentprime

Right - I mean, we have a Constitution: why did we need those civil rights laws? Isn’t everyone equal already?
/

We need to remember that laws depend partially on who enforces them. Without mention of what kinds of bullying “count”, anti-gay bullying can be dismissed as acceptable or, at least, not proscribed, and those who need protection still don’t get it. Same with racial bullying, religious, etc.

correctly describing the behavior that is now forbidden is unrelated to a discussion of its motivations.

If bullying does not count in an instance, and we think it ought to, then clearly we need to improve our definition of the behavior we wish to ban.

the motivating factor is irrelevant when the behavior to be banned is aptly spelled out in the legislation, because the behavior leaves no wiggle room for discernment.

you’re solving the problem the hard way. ban the behavior and the motivation becomes impossible to factor.

165 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:46:12pm

I was horribly bullied in elementary school. It had nothing to do with race, religion, gayness. I was short and nerdy and four-eyed and got picked on.

The teachers and my parents didn’t help by telling me “when they laugh at you, just laugh with them!”

Just thinking about it now, I hate them all.

166 cliffster  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:48:05pm

It’s a noble cause. I don’t think you’ll ever get rid of bullying or even really reduce it.

167 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:48:23pm

re: #157 Killgore Trout

For those who are following the doctored ACORN tapes Patterico has a “defense” posted called “Debunking Some Emerging ACORN Liberal Myths”. After a quick skim it looks more like a denial rather than a fact checking but some of you might want to check it out.

Mythology is highly underrated these days.
What if the Greeks had debunked all their myths?
How boring would that have been?
Why can’t we enjoy a good myth anymore?
Sheesh!

168 Stanley Sea  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:48:30pm

re: #162 Killgore Trout

It looks really weak to me. They might have something on the claim that O’keekfe was posing as a concerned boyfriend and not a pimp. I’ve seen the claim repeated but I don’t know the source of the information. However, It’s pretty clear that the tapes are substantially edited and I suspect Breitbart is going to find himself in legal trouble before this is over. You just can’t frame innocent people for crimes. I suspect some prosecutors are looking into this.

Yeah, some crooked prosecutors.////// Gah.

169 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:48:37pm

re: #165 Alouette

I was horribly bullied in elementary school. It had nothing to do with race, religion, gayness. I was short and nerdy and four-eyed and got picked on.

The teachers and my parents didn’t help by telling me “when they laugh at you, just laugh with them!”

Just thinking about it now, I hate them all.

Exactly. When there is no motivating factor that could lead us to excuse a particular behavior, it is far more logical to ban the behavior outright than to make enumerations based on motivation. The motivation is assumed to be unjust, regardless of what it it. It is no less just to bully you for being a nerd than for being (insert category here). Making the distinction in the ban, therefore, is unnecessary.

170 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:48:39pm

re: #163 SanFranciscoZionist

I took a quick glance. I don’t know if the ‘liberal myths’ are correct or not, but he seems to be refuting them with transcripts that he claims to be from the unedited tapes. I would like proof of that claim. If the transcripts are really from unaltered tapes, that is VERY different from if they’re not.

I suspect that Breitbart is releasing audio and transcripts is because they’re easier to edit without being noticed. I’m pretty sure the raw video wasn’t destroyed after they edited their films. Most filmakers keep all their originals, outtakes etc. for future edits.

171 SteveC  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:48:56pm

re: #5 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Boy, that has to be a serious shift in weight.

“Move your fat ass, Henry!” - George Washington to Henry Knox, The Crossing

172 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:49:28pm

re: #165 Alouette

I was horribly bullied in elementary school. It had nothing to do with race, religion, gayness. I was short and nerdy and four-eyed and got picked on.

The teachers and my parents didn’t help by telling me “when they laugh at you, just laugh with them!”

Just thinking about it now, I hate them all.

Well, they told me that when I grew up, I would see what a big fuss I made about being bullied, and realize it was no big deal.

I’m thirty-six, and I still might punch out some of those girls if I could get a hold of them.

And you’re about my mother’s age, if I infer correctly…OK, I guess I’m not gonna get over it!

173 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:49:35pm

re: #22 MrSilverDragon

You know what this means?! A SHORTER WORK WEEK! HURRAY!

(if only)

Hey, there won’t be so much month left at the end of the money now!

174 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:50:18pm

re: #166 cliffster

It’s a noble cause. I don’t think you’ll ever get rid of bullying or even really reduce it.

You can reduce it, or at least reduce its impact. Or, at least, there is some stuff you should NOT do.

175 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:50:46pm

re: #164 Aceofwhat?

correctly describing the behavior that is now forbidden is unrelated to a discussion of its motivations.

If bullying does not count in an instance, and we think it ought to, then clearly we need to improve our definition of the behavior we wish to ban.

the motivating factor is irrelevant when the behavior to be banned is aptly spelled out in the legislation, because the behavior leaves no wiggle room for discernment.

you’re solving the problem the hard way. ban the behavior and the motivation becomes impossible to factor.

I’m sorry; this doesn’t take into account what happens when the presiding authority (teacher, principal, etc.) has their thumb on the scale and declares the bullying acceptable or not a problem. Explicit description of the kinds of bullying only help people in the real world administer the law.

Also, frankly, you’re misstating when you claim that we’re looking at motivations. We’re saying “don’t hassle people on the basis of who they sleep with.” That’s an action. Looking at their motivation would be, “Don’t hassle gay people if you’re doing it because of your religion” or “Don’t hassle gay people if you’re in the closet and can’t admit it.”

This bill is still on the what. The why is irrelevant.

176 Qabal  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:53:01pm

OT: Another post by my favorite T/S author, Rick Ungar, about the slide towards McCarthyism on the right (and the next big outrageous outrage):

trueslant.com

177 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:53:31pm

re: #169 Aceofwhat?

Exactly. When there is no motivating factor that could lead us to excuse a particular behavior, it is far more logical to ban the behavior outright than to make enumerations based on motivation. The motivation is assumed to be unjust, regardless of what it it. It is no less just to bully you for being a nerd than for being (insert category here). Making the distinction in the ban, therefore, is unnecessary.

I’m bowing out of this, since I picked a bad link to demonstrate. Let’s just say that bullying about sexuality is a huge issue for both gay and straight kids, and there are folks out there who do not want sexuality included in any anti-bullying policy.

178 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:53:44pm

re: #167 Spare O’Lake

Mythology is highly underrated these days.
What if the Greeks had debunked all their myths?
How boring would that have been?
Why can’t we enjoy a good myth anymore?
Sheesh!

These day’s its hit or myth…Sorry! I couldn’t resist… ;)

179 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:53:54pm

re: #172 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, they told me that when I grew up, I would see what a big fuss I made about being bullied, and realize it was no big deal.

I’m thirty-six, and I still might punch out some of those girls if I could get a hold of them.

And you’re about my mother’s age, if I infer correctly…OK, I guess I’m not gonna get over it!

Being bullied as a child and not being able to do anything about it, while the grownups told me to “laugh with it!” gave me a very low self esteem. I went to a different high school just to get away from those bitches and assholes who made my life so much hell.

180 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:54:03pm

re: #175 torrentprime

I disagree that I am misstating the part about motivations.

“Don’t hassle people on the basis of who they sleep with” includes a motivation.

“Don’t hassle people” excludes the motivation. It also excludes the ability of an authority figure to decide whether the activity was indeed pursued on a “basis” that you would deem “forbidden”.

The basis is irrelevant unless it is ok, in some cases, to hassle people.

Is that what you’re saying?

181 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:55:28pm

re: #177 SanFranciscoZionist

I’m bowing out of this, since I picked a bad link to demonstrate. Let’s just say that bullying about sexuality is a huge issue for both gay and straight kids, and there are folks out there who do not want sexuality included in any anti-bullying policy.

No problem. I wholeheartedly agree that any provision which could be construed to permit the bullying of someone based on their sexuality, or on any other characteristic for that matter, is just sixteen kinds of wrong.

And since i think that was a major part of your point, we’re all good there. Now i’m just having fun with Torrentprime…

182 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:56:20pm

re: #180 Aceofwhat?

i’m coming in late so this might have been covered.

You realize you’re making a geenral argument used against hate crime laws right?

183 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:56:27pm

re: #179 Alouette

Being bullied as a child and not being able to do anything about it, while the grownups told me to “laugh with it!” gave me a very low self esteem. I went to a different high school just to get away from those bitches and assholes who made my life so much hell.

that stinks. bullying is wrong for any reason.

184 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:56:28pm

re: #166 cliffster

It’s a noble cause. I don’t think you’ll ever get rid of bullying or even really reduce it.

So far so good, at my kids’ charter school. They are top of their classes academically, as well as being distinctive-looking*, but the school’s anti-bullying policy has fostered a pretty comradely, learning-friendly environment.

*They arrived reversed: She’s too tall, and he’s too pretty. ;)

185 SteveC  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:56:39pm

re: #165 Alouette

I was horribly bullied in elementary school. It had nothing to do with race, religion, gayness. I was short and nerdy and four-eyed and got picked on.

All of the above, plus I was a “sick kid” and the bullies knew that I wouldn’t/couldn’t fight back.

I was getting picked on one day and he was pushing all of my buttons, and then he’d throw this in: “Whatcha gonna do? I’ll punch you in the chest and give you a heart attack!” (Pretty much impossible with my heart defect, but bullies aren’t brainy)

Well I had had it up to HERE and I popped him, right on the chin! Not very hard, but it caught him by surprise…

…. and his head snapped back and hit the metal pole he was leaning against. There was an audible DING!; he looked at me, his eyes crossed, and he sat down!

Then he fell over and puked.

I was never bothered again. But if it hadn’t been for that metal pole, I probably would have gotten my ass whipped.

186 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:57:45pm

speaking of bullying (I love to tell stories)

in the elementary school, I had my arm broken by the same bully… twice… in the same year.

As I remember it nothing much happened to him (altho I got the hell out of that school). Of course that was a long time ago :P

187 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:58:07pm

re: #174 SanFranciscoZionist

You can reduce it, or at least reduce its impact. Or, at least, there is some stuff you should NOT do.

I’m of the opinion that the teachers would just pay more attention to the kids when their outside the classroom, on the war to lockers and other classes there would be less of a problem with bullying. I was one of those kids that got a lot of bullying. The teachers complete ignored it, as soon as the kids left the room there was no one to put a stop to my torment. And it was torment let me tell you! By the time I left High School I hated every one of my class mates with very, very few exceptions.

188 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:58:29pm

re: #186 windsagio

oh and its not meant to be a tale of woe, its just funny what didn’t get punished sometimes >>

189 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:58:36pm

re: #165 Alouette

I was horribly bullied in elementary school. It had nothing to do with race, religion, gayness. I was short and nerdy and four-eyed and got picked on.

The teachers and my parents didn’t help by telling me “when they laugh at you, just laugh with them!”

Just thinking about it now, I hate them all.

More recently, some of the kids who felt they were being bullied took their daddy’s assault weapons to school…

190 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:58:49pm

re: #164 Aceofwhat?

correctly describing the behavior that is now forbidden is unrelated to a discussion of its motivations.

If bullying does not count in an instance, and we think it ought to, then clearly we need to improve our definition of the behavior we wish to ban.

the motivating factor is irrelevant when the behavior to be banned is aptly spelled out in the legislation, because the behavior leaves no wiggle room for discernment.

you’re solving the problem the hard way. ban the behavior and the motivation becomes impossible to factor.

It’s also worth pointing out that people are perfectly willing to accept other enumerations, such as religion, but not to accept the poison pill of sexual orientation, such as the Iowa reps who

191 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:58:50pm

re: #182 windsagio

i’m coming in late so this might have been covered.

You realize you’re making a geenral argument used against hate crime laws right?

sorta, except sometimes it’s more illuminating to use a narrow example. i have already posted the caveat that i’m not a big hate crime law fan.

the difference here, though, is that we aren’t dealing with the “crime against a class of people” part of the HC laws, but rather whether an activity needs to have its motivations enumerated if the activity is to be banned outright regardless of the motivations.

so…yes and no?

192 AlexRogan  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:58:50pm

re: #185 SteveC

All of the above, plus I was a “sick kid” and the bullies knew that I wouldn’t/couldn’t fight back.

I was getting picked on one day and he was pushing all of my buttons, and then he’d throw this in: “Whatcha gonna do? I’ll punch you in the chest and give you a heart attack!” (Pretty much impossible with my heart defect, but bullies aren’t brainy)

Well I had had it up to HERE and I popped him, right on the chin! Not very hard, but it caught him by surprise…

… and his head snapped back and hit the metal pole he was leaning against. There was an audible DING!; he looked at me, his eyes crossed, and he sat down!

Then he fell over and puked.

I was never bothered again. But if it hadn’t been for that metal pole, I probably would have gotten my ass whipped.

F**king awesome!

193 cliffster  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:59:42pm

re: #185 SteveC

bullies generally don’t know what to do if a real fight comes to them. You probably would have been just fine.

194 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:59:58pm

re: #187 Dragon_Lady

I’m of the opinion that the teachers would just pay more attention to the kids when their outside the classroom, on the war to lockers and other classes there would be less of a problem with bullying. I was one of those kids that got a lot of bullying. The teachers complete ignored it, as soon as the kids left the room there was no one to put a stop to my torment. And it was torment let me tell you! By the time I left High School I hated every one of my class mates with very, very few exceptions.

Even when the teachers do notice something going on, like the time I ran inside to the classroom during recess, sobbing uncontrollably, and the teacher told me to just “laugh with them!

One of the suckiest moments of my life.

195 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 1:59:58pm

re: #191 Aceofwhat?

lol fair enough. Its one of those issues where the whole thing has this bad habit of slogging into the nighmare morass of ‘definitions’.

196 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:00:32pm

re: #186 windsagio

speaking of bullying (I love to tell stories)

in the elementary school, I had my arm broken by the same bully… twice… in the same year.

As I remember it nothing much happened to him (altho I got the hell out of that school). Of course that was a long time ago :P

These days your little sister would probably be arrested.

197 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:00:45pm

re: #190 torrentprime

It’s also worth pointing out that people are perfectly willing to accept other enumerations, such as religion, but not to accept the poison pill of sexual orientation, such as the Iowa reps who

I disagree with those enumerations as well. If a behavior is universally banned, no enumeration is necessary.

198 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:00:51pm

re: #185 SteveC

All of the above, plus I was a “sick kid” and the bullies knew that I wouldn’t/couldn’t fight back.

I was getting picked on one day and he was pushing all of my buttons, and then he’d throw this in: “Whatcha gonna do? I’ll punch you in the chest and give you a heart attack!” (Pretty much impossible with my heart defect, but bullies aren’t brainy)

Well I had had it up to HERE and I popped him, right on the chin! Not very hard, but it caught him by surprise…

… and his head snapped back and hit the metal pole he was leaning against. There was an audible DING!; he looked at me, his eyes crossed, and he sat down!

Then he fell over and puked.

I was never bothered again. But if it hadn’t been for that metal pole, I probably would have gotten my ass whipped.

I’m with you there Steve! I had Rheumatoid Arthritus my whole childhood and the teachers never failed to make me feel like a weakling and, as you can guess, I was the one all the bullies loved to go after!

199 SteveC  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:01:14pm

re: #192 talon_262

F**king awesome!

As soon as I did it, I thought “Well, that wasn’t really bright!”

200 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:01:27pm

re: #193 cliffster

That’s something that is said alot (bullies as cowards), but often they’re just big and strong, and can fight just fine :p

It makes me think of a friend, had a hell of a time in Elementary school, matured early, and beat the hell out of eveyrone he could get his hands on (mostly his old enemies) in Middle School. He had become a bully by any means and his own admission, but he certainly wasn’t afraid to fight.

201 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:01:46pm

re: #195 windsagio

lol fair enough. Its one of those issues where the whole thing has this bad habit of slogging into the nighmare morass of ‘definitions’.

i’m a sucker for that kind of morass…a fault that i need to be transparent about, since i clearly am not able to surmount it :)

202 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:02:12pm

re: #186 windsagio

speaking of bullying (I love to tell stories)

in the elementary school, I had my arm broken by the same bully… twice… in the same year.

As I remember it nothing much happened to him (altho I got the hell out of that school). Of course that was a long time ago :P

(We can tell!) ;) Just funnin ya!

203 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:02:26pm

re: #196 Spare O’Lake

These days your little sister would probably be arrested.

ok, i laughed and updinged…but just to make sure…that was a joke, right?

204 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:02:27pm

re: #201 Aceofwhat?

Do you see pedantry as a virtue? :D

205 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:02:57pm

re: #186 windsagio

speaking of bullying (I love to tell stories)

in the elementary school, I had my arm broken by the same bully… twice… in the same year.

As I remember it nothing much happened to him (altho I got the hell out of that school). Of course that was a long time ago :P

You needed a big brother.

206 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:03:14pm

re: #202 Dragon_Lady

oh dude (I use it gender neutral :p), some time get me on the line of “Awful things I’ve seen at group homes. I could write a horror novel.

207 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:03:15pm

re: #200 windsagio

That’s something that is said alot (bullies as cowards), but often they’re just big and strong, and can fight just fine :p

It makes me think of a friend, had a hell of a time in Elementary school, matured early, and beat the hell out of eveyrone he could get his hands on (mostly his old enemies) in Middle School. He had become a bully by any means and his own admission, but he certainly wasn’t afraid to fight.

Pay backs a bitch, ain’t it? Those kids probably deserved it!

208 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:03:31pm

re: #200 windsagio

yeah, i’m happy to be skinny now but i was damn skinny in jr high. some of the bullies couldn’t back it up…but some of them could beat up most teachers.

i hear ya.

209 cliffster  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:03:37pm

re: #200 windsagio

That’s something that is said alot (bullies as cowards), but often they’re just big and strong, and can fight just fine :p

It makes me think of a friend, had a hell of a time in Elementary school, matured early, and beat the hell out of eveyrone he could get his hands on (mostly his old enemies) in Middle School. He had become a bully by any means and his own admission, but he certainly wasn’t afraid to fight.

Ha. I said, “generally”, which I think is true. There are, of course, some kids who can beat your ass and are also bullies. My dad taught me to fight when I was a kid, for just that kind of guy. I don’t think people teach their sons how to fight any more. But my dad is old skool.

210 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:03:51pm

re: #207 Dragon_Lady

He certainly thought so! Like SFZ, still dislikes them to this day, altho I don’t think he’d beat ‘em up now :D

211 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:04:04pm

re: #181 Aceofwhat?

No problem. I wholeheartedly agree that any provision which could be construed to permit the bullying of someone based on their sexuality, or on any other characteristic for that matter, is just sixteen kinds of wrong.

And since i think that was a major part of your point, we’re all good there. Now i’m just having fun with Torrentprime…

:)

I think we may disagree on the motivation question. You’re acting as if the words spoken by a bully are a never-wrong, crystal clear window into his/her motivation. Actions can belie motivations; one is not the other. I’m not that sanguine about assuming someone’s inner heart and mind; I think “you can’t give people crap about their race, their religion, their orientation” etc bans behavior, regardless of why they’re saying what they are saying.

You’re inferring intent/motivation from actions. I don’t think it’s necessary or safe to do so; just ban the behavior and leave motivations up to individuals.

212 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:04:06pm

re: #185 SteveC

All of the above, plus I was a “sick kid” and the bullies knew that I wouldn’t/couldn’t fight back.

I was getting picked on one day and he was pushing all of my buttons, and then he’d throw this in: “Whatcha gonna do? I’ll punch you in the chest and give you a heart attack!” (Pretty much impossible with my heart defect, but bullies aren’t brainy)

Well I had had it up to HERE and I popped him, right on the chin! Not very hard, but it caught him by surprise…

… and his head snapped back and hit the metal pole he was leaning against. There was an audible DING!; he looked at me, his eyes crossed, and he sat down!

Then he fell over and puked.

I was never bothered again. But if it hadn’t been for that metal pole, I probably would have gotten my ass whipped.

Hilarious. Wish I could give you more than one puny upding.

213 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:04:26pm

re: #204 windsagio

Do you see pedantry as a virtue? :D

No, and yet I fall into it on a near-daily basis.

Sigh.

I’m so fallible.

214 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:04:33pm

re: #179 Alouette

Being bullied as a child and not being able to do anything about it, while the grownups told me to “laugh with it!” gave me a very low self esteem. I went to a different high school just to get away from those bitches and assholes who made my life so much hell.

{{Alouette}}

215 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:04:35pm

re: #206 windsagio

oh dude (I use it gender neutral :p), some time get me on the line of “Awful things I’ve seen at group homes. I could write a horror novel.

I’ve been called worse… ;)

216 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:04:49pm

re: #205 RogueOne

Everyone’s scared of my big brother, but he’s disabled.

I told you guys the baseball bat story didn’t I? Since I’m on a jag :D

217 SteveC  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:04:58pm

re: #204 windsagio

Do you see pedantry as a virtue? :D

I like Pendants! I gave my girlfriend a really nice one last Christmas….!

///

218 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:05:45pm

re: #217 SteveC

heh, I was careful to spell it right!

(man wheres this nervous posting energy coming from?)

219 Kragar  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:05:55pm

Wow, the things you learn browsing the internet:

“The Greatest Disaster Suffered from Animals”

Repeated calls by the British for the Japanese to surrender were ignored: the Marines holding the perimeter shot any Japanese attempting to escape, while within the swampland hundreds of soldiers died over the course of several days for lack of food or drinking water. Some, including naturalist Bruce Wright, claimed that the crocodiles attacked and ate numerous soldiers:

“That night [of the 19 February 1945] was the most horrible that any member of the M.L. [motor launch] crews ever experienced. The scattered rifle shots in the pitch black swamp punctured by the screams of wounded men crushed in the jaws of huge reptiles, and the blurred worrying sound of spinning crocodiles made a cacophony of hell that has rarely been duplicated on earth. At dawn the vultures arrived to clean up what the crocodiles had left…Of about 1,000 Japanese soldiers that entered the swamps of Ramree, only about 20 were found alive.”[2]

However, these claims are disputed, and interviews with senior residents of Ramree deny that crocodiles attacked the beleaguered Japanese soldiers. When the British eventually moved in on the swamp, they found that of the nine hundred troops that originally fled into the swamp, only around twenty seriously wounded and weakened Japanese soldiers were captured. In all, about 500 Japanese soldiers escaped from Ramree despite the intense blockade instituted to stop them.

220 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:07:22pm

re: #211 torrentprime

:)

I think we may disagree on the motivation question. You’re acting as if the words spoken by a bully are a never-wrong, crystal clear window into his/her motivation. Actions can belie motivations; one is not the other. I’m not that sanguine about assuming someone’s inner heart and mind; I think “you can’t give people crap about their race, their religion, their orientation” etc bans behavior, regardless of why they’re saying what they are saying.

I think we’re getting somewhere!

that last part in bold…help me…how does that protect, for example, Alouette, who got crap because she was perceived to be a nerd?

221 AlexRogan  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:08:00pm

re: #199 SteveC

As soon as I did it, I thought “Well, that wasn’t really bright!”

Well, it put the fear of G-d (with a little assist from that metal pole) into those bullies, didn’t it?

;-P

222 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:08:42pm

re: #216 windsagio

Everyone’s scared of my big brother, but he’s disabled.

I told you guys the baseball bat story didn’t I? Since I’m on a jag :D

Didn’t know that about your brother. If my brother had come home and told my mom that someone was picking on him and I hadn’t taken care of it…I would have been in the shit.

223 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:09:14pm

re: #219 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Wow, the things you learn browsing the internet:

“The Greatest Disaster Suffered from Animals”

I’ve heard a similar story involving feral hogs at the Battle of Shiloh.

224 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:09:20pm

re: #218 windsagio

heh, I was careful to spell it right!

(man wheres this nervous posting energy coming from?)

Too much caffeine? I’m just sayin…

225 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:09:58pm

re: #220 Aceofwhat?

I think we’re getting somewhere!

that last part in bold…help me…how does that protect, for example, Alouette, who got crap because she was perceived to be a nerd?

Just laugh with them!

226 SteveC  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:10:10pm

re: #221 talon_262

Well, it put the fear of G-d (with a little assist from that metal pole) into those bullies, didn’t it?

;-P

That pole was my secret weapon! “You wanna make something of it, let’s go outside. Here, you lean against this pole…!”

227 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:10:18pm

re: #218 windsagio

heh, I was careful to spell it right!

(man wheres this nervous posting energy coming from?)

for some reason, i get the impression that you usually post with nervous energy.

don’t mean that in any way good or bad…it’s just funny the vibes you get when you encounter friends frequently through this medium but not through any tactile or voice medium.

it’d be interesting on a lounge night to talk about the vibes that we all give off to each other through our posting styles…

228 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:11:01pm

re: #187 Dragon_Lady

I’m of the opinion that the teachers would just pay more attention to the kids when their outside the classroom, on the war to lockers and other classes there would be less of a problem with bullying. I was one of those kids that got a lot of bullying. The teachers complete ignored it, as soon as the kids left the room there was no one to put a stop to my torment. And it was torment let me tell you! By the time I left High School I hated every one of my class mates with very, very few exceptions.

Gotta be out in the halls, gotta be out on the yard, gotta be actively involved.

229 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:11:11pm

Obama proposes $3,000 home energy rebates
I might take advantage of something like this. I wonder how many other people would. Could help create some jobs.

230 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:11:16pm

re: #225 Alouette

Just laugh with them!

sorry that i’m 20 years late to stick up for you!

231 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:11:35pm

re: #222 RogueOne

My brother, being autistic used to ask for me to come home so he could attack me. My mom would leave a baseball bat on the front porch as a warning (altho, why she used that I don’t know, I would just see it and go next door to my grandparents.)

My whole family (myself included) finds this story hilarious :D

and with that, I’m gonna go and get some food or something, get my electrolytes back in check :D Its not the “talk about windie” blog >>

232 SteveC  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:11:41pm

re: #220 Aceofwhat?

Alouette, who got crap because she was perceived to be a nerd?

Alouette, you can hang around here anytime, I like women with BRAINS! :)

233 Stanley Sea  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:12:23pm

re: #210 windsagio

He certainly thought so! Like SFZ, still dislikes them to this day, altho I don’t think he’d beat ‘em up now :D

You facebook him yet?

234 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:12:29pm

re: #203 Aceofwhat?

ok, i laughed and updinged…but just to make sure…that was a joke, right?

Well, if you’re gonna twist my arm…YES IT WAS A JOKE!

235 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:12:30pm

re: #232 SteveC

Alouette, you can hang around here anytime, I like women with BRAINS! :)

seriously. smart women are straight sexy.

236 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:12:55pm

re: #235 Aceofwhat?

seriously. smart women are straight sexy.

Zedushka thinks so.

237 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:13:20pm

re: #220 Aceofwhat?

I think we’re getting somewhere!

that last part in bold…help me…how does that protect, for example, Alouette, who got crap because she was perceived to be a nerd?

If they had added “no bullying the uncool” to statutes, my entire high school would be felons.

So if I can explain why Alouette should have been protected by a bill enacted in her future, you’ll agree with me? Wow, it seems so tempting…

238 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:13:37pm

re: #234 Spare O’Lake

Well, if you’re gonna twist my arm…YES IT WAS A JOKE!

sorry to ask. i laughed out loud and updinged, but then Windie downdinged and i got scared for a second that there was some dark history i was missing.

Windie - laugh it off, dude. That was just straight funny.

239 Kragar  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:13:57pm

re: #223 Alouette

I’ve heard a similar story involving feral hogs at the Battle of Shiloh.

It was my understanding that the hogs at Shiloh were eating the dead after the battle.

240 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:14:19pm

re: #219 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Wow, the things you learn browsing the internet:

“The Greatest Disaster Suffered from Animals”

Another of the brutal operations against the Japanese, in the main rendered brutal by the IJA refusal to surrender. That made any fight where the Japanese were hemmed in bloody woe. Still, the very fact that the UK had enough amphibious forces to mount the assault meant doom to Japan, since the IJn could no longer shield against the Allied navies.

241 SteveC  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:14:31pm

re: #235 Aceofwhat?

seriously. smart women are straight sexy.

And LGF has a whole crew of smart ladies!

(Not going to call names because I’ll miss someone and then I will be in deep do-do. But you know who you are!)

242 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:14:41pm

re: #221 talon_262

Well, it put the fear of G-d (with a little assist from that metal pole) into those bullies, didn’t it?

;-P

We all need one small victory from time to time.

243 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:15:00pm

re: #238 Aceofwhat?

I have no excuse :P At least not that I’m willing to go into. I’m just feeling all werewolfy, thats why I’m *TRYING* (glare) to get away from the computer for a while :p

244 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:15:18pm

re: #237 torrentprime

If they had added “no bullying the uncool” to statutes, my entire high school would be felons.

So if I can explain why Alouette should have been protected by a bill enacted in her future, you’ll agree with me? Wow, it seems so tempting…

Oh, so it’s ok to bully sometimes. Just not on the basis of race, religion, or sexual orientation.

Just so you know, that’s what you’re saying…you sure that’s what you want to say?

(Alouette was a hypothetical…think “nerd” if you must)

245 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:15:36pm

I just remembered, there is a kid’s book that describes the bullying phenomenon quite accurately. Blubber, by Judy Blume.

246 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:15:39pm

re: #232 SteveC

Alouette, you can hang around here anytime, I like women with BRAINS! :)

And there are entire web sites dedicated to women w/ glasses. Jan Smithers (WKRP) seems to be a favorite.

247 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:16:06pm

re: #244 Aceofwhat?

How about its never okay but its worse if you’re doing it for the stated reasons? Would that work for you?

248 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:16:10pm

re: #220 Aceofwhat?

I think we’re getting somewhere!

that last part in bold…help me…how does that protect, for example, Alouette, who got crap because she was perceived to be a nerd?

Any decent anti-bullying rule will cover that.

What we’re trying to deal with in rules that clearly cover issues like sexuality is leave no loophole for the educator who insists that leaving notes that say ‘faggot’ in a kid’s locker is NOT bullying.

Happens oftener than one might think.

249 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:16:13pm

re: #239 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

It was my understanding that the hogs at Shiloh were eating the dead after the battle.

They might have eaten men too weak to fight them off, though. Wild pigs have done that at times, and a pig can digest human flesh as easily as a human can digest pork.

250 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:16:18pm

re: #247 windsagio

IE it would be punished either way.

251 Taqyia2Me  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:16:22pm

re: #239 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

It was my understanding that the hogs at Shiloh were eating the dead after the battle.

Reminds me of that HBO series Deadwood.

252 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:16:24pm

re: #243 windsagio

I have no excuse :P At least not that I’m willing to go into. I’m just feeling all werewolfy, thats why I’m *TRYING* (glare) to get away from the computer for a while :p

you can make fun of me if it helps. i shoot my foot at least thrice daily…

253 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:16:32pm

re: #237 torrentprime

If they had added “no bullying the uncool” to statutes, my entire high school would be felons.

So if I can explain why Alouette should have been protected by a bill enacted in her future, you’ll agree with me? Wow, it seems so tempting…

I want to be able to retroactively sue those kids and the teachers for all my mental pain and suffering.

254 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:16:44pm

re: #216 windsagio

Everyone’s scared of my big brother, but he’s disabled.

I told you guys the baseball bat story didn’t I? Since I’m on a jag :D

My brothers all picked on me, gently for the most part mind you, but if they found out that anyone picked on me look out! Our neighborhood bullies left me alone when we were home. They just waited until I was at school. Then it was practically a free for all.
Ask RWC! One of my older brothers was in the Marines when RWC and I started dating and I would right to him every week and i told him about RWC. The very next letter I got back had a very subtle message to RWC about what would happen to any guy who hurt his little sister, something about broken legs… I think he (RWC) got the point. Four brothers is enough to put off most guys, but RWC’s got guts I must say. ;-)

255 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:16:53pm

re: #247 windsagio

How about its never okay but its worse if you’re doing it for the stated reasons? Would that work for you?

nope. you had me at never ok.

256 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:17:05pm

re: #252 Aceofwhat?

haha hows this.

Telling people why you think they did something generally leads to brutal fights :p

257 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:17:20pm

re: #250 windsagio

IE it would be punished either way.

then why enumerate?

258 SteveC  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:18:02pm

re: #243 windsagio

I have no excuse :P At least not that I’m willing to go into. I’m just feeling all werewolfy, thats why I’m *TRYING* (glare) to get away from the computer for a while :p

Ah-oooooooo, windsagio of London…..

259 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:18:05pm

re: #256 windsagio

well done!

260 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:18:13pm

re: #222 RogueOne

Didn’t know that about your brother. If my brother had come home and told my mom that someone was picking on him and I hadn’t taken care of it…I would have been in the shit.

I don’t care for Bullies.. I don’t recall ever being Bullied in School…
But there were times I’ve stepped in for my classmates in school
*maybe you want a piece of me*
I was kind of popular in school so I never really had to back it up and could get a Bully to shut up and back off…
Of course there was this other guy on the Basketball team that I fought with in practice all the time..Drove the coach insane…It was the kind of fight we would just rolled around the floor and people would pull us apart…A lot of yelling and stuff but no punches thrown….

261 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:18:17pm

re: #257 Aceofwhat?

because you’re trying to mold young minds!

Seriously. You’re trying to change thought behaviors young, and making it really clear that that kind of thought isn’t okay (which you cna’t do directly, but can through punishing actions) is a way to get the message across.

262 Kragar  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:18:41pm

re: #240 Dark_Falcon

Another of the brutal operations against the Japanese, in the main rendered brutal by the IJA refusal to surrender. That made any fight where the Japanese were hemmed in bloody woe. Still, the very fact that the UK had enough amphibious forces to mount the assault meant doom to Japan, since the IJn could no longer shield against the Allied navies.

In this case, the Japanese were faced with staying were they were and dying or attempt to escape thru the swamps. They tried the swamps, which were filled with thousands of salt water crocodiles averaging 15+’ in length. They got torn apart literally.

263 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:18:44pm

re: #259 Aceofwhat?

but hint: “Kidding on the straight”

264 vaynela  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:23:02pm

re: #32 Decatur Deb

Stick around. Hebrew is back after 2000 years. Latin will have it’s day, but just not while Berlusconi is running the show.

265 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:23:38pm

re: #228 SanFranciscoZionist

Gotta be out in the halls, gotta be out on the yard, gotta be actively involved.

Yeah, but you try explaining that to them! Not one of them could care less, at least not at the school I went to! The only time I really had a school official stand up for me was when one of my class mates thought it was funny to yell obscenities at me from across the hall and I went to the boys vice-principle and told him about it. The next day he was standing just out of sight and got a earful of what I had been enduing for the last few weeks. I found out that he (the kid) was suspended and subsequently diagnosed with a brain tumor. I saw him about ten years after the incident and he thanked me for reporting his behavior, seems I save his life. They got the tumor out just in time. You never know what reporting an incident will do… maybe even save a life! Made me feel good!

266 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:23:56pm

re: #261 windsagio

because you’re trying to mold young minds!

Seriously. You’re trying to change thought behaviors young, and making it really clear that that kind of thought isn’t okay (which you cna’t do directly, but can through punishing actions) is a way to get the message across.

We agree on the first sentence.

Whatever the motivation for the bullying, it was wrong. If no motivation is an excuse for bullying, then logically you would not attempt to list all possible motivations in a ban on bullying. You would simply ban bullying.

Then, when punishing the offender, you would delve into the heart of the motivation and attempt to mold the mind. I agree with that.

I’m only saying that it’s illogical to enumerate motivations for an action if the action is never permissible.

Let’s say theft.

If theft is never permissible, would you write a bill that says “in the case of X, Y, and Z, theft is not permissible”? Of course not. You’d simply define what theft is and ban it. Period.

Did that analogy help or complicate my point? (did the bullet go into the sky or into my metatarsal…)

267 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:24:39pm

re: #260 HoosierHoops

I don’t care for Bullies.. I don’t recall ever being Bullied in School…
But there were times I’ve stepped in for my classmates in school
*maybe you want a piece of me*
I was kind of popular in school so I never really had to back it up and could get a Bully to shut up and back off…
Of course there was this other guy on the Basketball team that I fought with in practice all the time..Drove the coach insane…It was the kind of fight we would just rolled around the floor and people would pull us apart…A lot of yelling and stuff but no punches thrown…

I was too big to be physically bullied much, but I often was mocked and picked on. The only major time I had problem with someone in grade school was actually with a girl, who decided to make my life trouble one week. She finally actually started throwing punches at recess that Thursday, whereupon the school staff sent me inside for everyone’s sake. She got suspended for her actions and her parents landed on her hard enough that she did not try violence again.

268 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:26:40pm

re: #267 Dark_Falcon

funny aside: i was the tallest boy in sixth grade and the exact same height as the shortest girl in my class.

269 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:26:56pm
270 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:26:58pm

re: #244 Aceofwhat?

Oh, so it’s ok to bully sometimes. Just not on the basis of race, religion, or sexual orientation.

Just so you know, that’s what you’re saying…you sure that’s what you want to say?

(Alouette was a hypothetical…think “nerd” if you must)

I’m surprised that my unwillingness to fall into your little deadfall wasn’t a hit! :)

We both know that’s not what I am saying. (Thanks for the check, though; when others put words in my mouth, it’s nice of them to ask permission!) If you need a definitive statement, try this: “The success of my argument about enumerating types of forbidden behavior doesn’t rise or fall depending on your confusion as to whether a potentially forbidden act must be listed specifically.”

“Don’t mess with people” would be line one of a law. Lines two through Z would include specific examples. Is that a problem, to give those who must administer the law examples of bad behavior? Our Alouette (who I sympathize and empathize with) would be protected either way.

271 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:27:19pm

When I was a kid bullies were REAL bullies. They never discriminated and they never used verbal assaults or swarming…they just came up to you, one on one, and beat the crap out of you for absolutely no reason.
It was AWESOME.

272 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:28:11pm

I was mildly picked on in school. I also picked on one particular kid, who was smart, fat, and had a little bit of an accent, and whose Brazilian father visited our elementary school wearing a bright Nehru jacket once. Many years later, I apologized to him for being a nasty person. He held no grudge and responded, “Eh, kids are mean.”

273 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:28:39pm
274 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:29:02pm

re: #268 Aceofwhat?

funny aside: i was the tallest boy in sixth grade and the exact same height as the shortest girl in my class.

6th grade is a weird time, the only one in most male’s live when they are smaller than the girls.

275 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:29:08pm

re: #270 torrentprime

Don’t mess with people” would be line one of a law. Lines two through Z would include specific examples. Is that a problem, to give those who must administer the law examples of bad behavior?

Yes, it is a problem, because it provides an excuse for bullying those who are not in the “protected class.”

276 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:29:12pm

re: #266 Aceofwhat?

We agree on the first sentence.

Whatever the motivation for the bullying, it was wrong. If no motivation is an excuse for bullying, then logically you would not attempt to list all possible motivations in a ban on bullying. You would simply ban bullying.

Then, when punishing the offender, you would delve into the heart of the motivation and attempt to mold the mind. I agree with that.

I’m only saying that it’s illogical to enumerate motivations for an action if the action is never permissible.

Let’s say theft.

If theft is never permissible, would you write a bill that says “in the case of X, Y, and Z, theft is not permissible”? Of course not. You’d simply define what theft is and ban it. Period.

Did that analogy help or complicate my point? (did the bullet go into the sky or into my metatarsal…)

You’re still completely confusing motivation with action. No one is outlawing motivation (“don’t bully because you believe X or are trying to achieve Y”). The outlawing covers what you do, such as call someone a fag. Understand motivation isn’t necessary to ban that.

277 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:29:39pm

re: #270 torrentprime

It was a hit - updinged. Good stuff.

I actually wasn’t sure that was what you were saying, so thanks for the clarification. I hate it when others read too much into me, too, although I screw it up myself plenty of times.

I’d say that your last paragraph seems like good common ground.

Nicely done.

278 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:29:42pm

Nothing was more fun than watching the school bully try to get into it with a car full of the rival school’s students at the state basketball quarter-finals outside the old Colosseum in Seattle. He tried to punch out the passenger window and got six broken hand bones for his trouble. Went to jail and lost his wrestling scholarship. Sweet.

279 brookly red  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:29:46pm

re: #273 MandyManners

Boy-bullies are usually easy to see and deal with. Girl-bullies, though, are another story.

//just give up the chocolate & no one gets hurt…

280 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:30:06pm

re: #269 MandyManners

I wonder what a bully’s home life is like.

My experience with bullying is that most of them endure verbal abuse at home and in order to feel better about themselves they turn it on others when away from home. I had a few kids in my neighborhood that would cower like a whipped dog as soon as a parent was spotted, but become real mean as soon as they were out of sight.

281 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:30:12pm

In middle school -with a strict no-fighting policy - had a beef with one of my classmates. He was taller, stronger, and, in general, better built for combat than I was.

I removed my glasses, folded my hands behind my back, and invited him to take a shot, but, if he did, he should know that I’ll settle the score later.

A swing, a pop, and out flies a tooth and blood.

It was stupid and childish, and, in the weeks that followed, he and I patched over our differences and got to be kinda chummy.

Brought him his soda one day at lunch. Cherry Coke it was.

He took a nice long drink and slowly turned green and bolted for the bathroom. He was in the stall, convulsing from the dry heaves that a doubled-up dose of ipecac syrup will cause to a person who’s already vomited himself clean.

He looked up at me.

“Gotcha, ya son of a bitch!” And then I kicked him in the back of the head.

Same punishment for that as if I’d have thrown a punch back at the start of it.

Oddly enough, I never had any problems like that again.

282 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:30:15pm

re: #275 Alouette

Yes, it is a problem, because it provides an excuse for bullying those who are not in the “protected class.”

Unless there is a group of people who don’t have sexual orientations, races, or genders, I’m not sure who isn’t in the protected class. We’re not talking about “special rights”, here.

283 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:30:54pm
284 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:31:16pm

re: #219 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Wow, the things you learn browsing the internet:

“The Greatest Disaster Suffered from Animals”

Scorpions and mosquitoes and crocodiles … oh, my!

And then the vultures appear.

What a living hell.

285 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:31:27pm

re: #271 Spare O’Lake

When I was a kid bullies were REAL bullies. They never discriminated and they never used verbal assaults or swarming…they just came up to you, one on one, and beat the crap out of you for absolutely no reason.
It was AWESOME.

I think things were different then. About 50% of my classmates were juvenile delinquents (and had the paperwork to prove it). We still had standards, i.e. we would never hit a kid two grades below us, wouldn’t bother beating up the same kid twice.

286 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:31:27pm

re: #274 Dark_Falcon

6th grade is a weird time, the only one in most male’s live when they are smaller than the girls.

I was always the shortest kid in the class, at all times and in all grades. The weird thing is that in high school these tall, basketball-playing dudes would ask me out. They thought I was “cute.” But the short guys always wanted a girl who was taller than they were.

287 ryannon  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:32:23pm

re: #189 Spare O’Lake

More recently, some of the kids who felt they were being bullied took their daddy’s assault weapons to school…

A long time ago in Chicago, I began to be the target of a sadistic jerk - an older, heavier and much tougher guy. I gave it a couple of weeks and finally told him I’d pay some people to have him crippled with baseball bats. He found out that I lived in the housing projects and never bothered me again.

288 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:32:34pm

re: #276 torrentprime

You’re still completely confusing motivation with action. No one is outlawing motivation (“don’t bully because you believe X or are trying to achieve Y”). The outlawing covers what you do, such as call someone a fag. Understand motivation isn’t necessary to ban that.

That’s fine. Where you were helpful was in your distinction between examples and motivations.

The discussion began with my question about whether the ban did indeed address motivations. Unless i misread him (careful caveat), Windsiagio also is concerned about motivations.

You are talking about clarifications, which I think is different and far more logical.

Did that help?

289 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:34:01pm

All that’s necessary in dealing with any enemy is a clear determination to prevail, and the will to implement something sufficiently shocking as to give others pause for EVER trying that kinda thing again.

290 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:34:06pm

re: #282 torrentprime

Unless there is a group of people who don’t have sexual orientations, races, or genders, I’m not sure who isn’t in the protected class. We’re not talking about “special rights”, here.

You still don’t get it. I was not picked on because I was perceived to be “gay.” I was picked on because I was short, skinny and wore glasses. The fat kids were also picked on. Nobody was picked on for being “gay” although this was back in the 50’s/60’s.

291 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:34:28pm

Wanna talk about bullies — growing up in Hawaii, in the public schools they had something called “Kill Haole Day,” the last day of school. At the end of the day, the locals would line up on one side of the school yard and wait for “haoles” (white kids) to come out, then pounce on them and kick the living crap out of them. It was a mob composed entirely of bullies.

I avoided this festive occasion twice, by ducking out of the last class 30 minutes before the end. But I had a friend who actually ended up in the hospital one year.

292 keloyd  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:34:45pm

I have no kids of my own, but it looks like the only realistic reading of the situation is to accept that bullying goes on, and your kids need tools to deal with it (brains, humor, fighting, gang up when needed, etc.) when it comes. All the school administrators saying all the most progressive and fashionable things will not move the settings of human nature by one tick.

293 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:35:09pm

re: #288 Aceofwhat?

That’s fine. Where you were helpful was in your distinction between examples and motivations.

The discussion began with my question about whether the ban did indeed address motivations. Unless i misread him (careful caveat), Windsiagio also is concerned about motivations.

You are talking about clarifications, which I think is different and far more logical.

Did that help?

Yes. I don’t like thought-crime laws either. I don’t love getting into motivation and intent and “in your heart of hearts” crap, and it’s damn near impossible for an educator to have time to do so fairly. “Don’t call someone a fag” is a lot easier.

294 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:35:19pm

re: #286 Alouette

I was always the shortest kid in the class, at all times and in all grades. The weird thing is that in high school these tall, basketball-playing dudes would ask me out. They thought I was “cute.” But the short guys always wanted a girl who was taller than they were.

Basketball players love cute girls in school..
I never considered that a character flaw…

295 rwdflynavy  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:35:21pm

I was the only white kid dumb enough to go to Gilette Middle School (Kingsville Texas) on “Beat up Gringo Day”.

Hilarity ensued.

296 brookly red  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:35:28pm

re: #289 Guanxi88

All that’s necessary in dealing with any enemy is a clear determination to prevail, and the will to implement something sufficiently shocking as to give others pause for EVER trying that kinda thing again.

The Bronx was a lovely place to grow up…

297 albusteve  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:35:51pm

The Westchester resident suffered only minor injuries, a few cuts and scrapes from the damaged windshield.
What hurt far more was a $350 bill from the Glenside Fire Protection District, a fee critics refer to as a “crash tax.

chicagotribune.com

298 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:35:56pm

re: #291 Charles

Wanna talk about bullies — growing up in Hawaii, in the public schools they had something called “Kill Haole Day,” the last day of school. At the end of the day, the locals would line up on one side of the school yard and wait for “haoles” (white kids) to come out, then pounce and them and kick the living crap out of them. It was a mob composed entirely of bullies.

I avoided this festive occasion twice, by ducking out of the last class 30 minutes before the end. But I had a friend who actually ended up in the hospital one year.

Yikes.

299 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:36:46pm

re: #266 Aceofwhat?


I’m only saying that it’s illogical to enumerate motivations for an action if the action is never permissible.

We’re enumerating types of actions in order to define the action. The basic problem with bullying is that, as Osama bin Laden so accurately pointed out to us, people like the strong horse, and the bully is often the strong horse, the voice of social approval.

Kids who are being bullied get told:

“Let me teach you to kick a ball so those guys won’t call you a faggot.”

“Maybe if you go over there at lunch and talk to those kids instead of reading in the library, they’ll stop making fun of you for reading so much.”

“Well, maybe if you make some GIRL friends, and don’t hang out with the guys all the time, they won’t call you a slut”.

“If you didn’t dress like a goth, they’d stop pointing and leaving messages calling you ‘Columbine Killer’ in your locker.”

“The other students won’t call you ‘fucking dykes’ if you stop holding hands on campus so much.”

“If you don’t cry when they bully you, they’ll stop.”

This is common. The message is: fix yourself, and maybe they’ll leave you alone. The message behind that: they’re right.

We need to clarify what counts as bullying. It cannot be left to common sense. Adding sexuality to the definition is important, because it’s far too common in our present society to think that calling another child a faggot is casual teasing.

‘At’s all.

300 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:36:54pm

Wikipedia actually has an entry for Kill Haole Day.

301 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:37:05pm

re: #275 Alouette

Yes, it is a problem, because it provides an excuse for bullying those who are not in the “protected class.”

I think he (he? i’m assuming TP is male but boy have i screwed that up in the past…sorry again Brookly…) was specific in stating that the core of the statute would ban the action. So you’re covered.

302 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:37:26pm

re: #293 torrentprime

Yes. I don’t like thought-crime laws either. I don’t love getting into motivation and intent and “in your heart of hearts” crap, and it’s damn near impossible for an educator to have time to do so fairly. “Don’t call someone a fag” is a lot easier.

But it’s OK to call someone “four-eyes” “midget” and “spider-legs” not to mention the every popular “fatso”

303 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:37:41pm

re: #296 brookly red

The Bronx was a lovely place to grow up…

I think it was Reagan who observed that the world is a rough neighborhood.

In the few fights it’s ever been my misfortune to be engaged in, I’ve always found that having snakes in my head has helped me to carry the day.

304 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:37:51pm

re: #290 Alouette

You still don’t get it. I was not picked on because I was perceived to be “gay.” I was picked on because I was short, skinny and wore glasses. The fat kids were also picked on. Nobody was picked on for being “gay” although this was back in the 50’s/60’s.

I don’t get it? So when I was bullied incessantly for being fat and a nerd for 3 years of junior high that got so bad, my parents took me to an anger management counselor to learn to deal and threatened to sue the bully’s parents? LOL. Trust me, I get it.

What you are focusing on is the erroneous belief that only certain classes get protection. That is not and never has been the case in these laws, and certainly not in anything I’ve defended.

305 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:37:54pm

re: #291 Charles

I hope the public school admins and staff in HI are on top of that sort of thing these days.

306 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:38:01pm

re: #291 Charles

and this was all fine and dandy with the adults???

307 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:38:19pm

re: #291 Charles

Wanna talk about bullies — growing up in Hawaii, in the public schools they had something called “Kill Haole Day,” the last day of school. At the end of the day, the locals would line up on one side of the school yard and wait for “haoles” (white kids) to come out, then pounce on them and kick the living crap out of them. It was a mob composed entirely of bullies.

I avoided this festive occasion twice, by ducking out of the last class 30 minutes before the end. But I had a friend who actually ended up in the hospital one year.

In Canada we call this kind of thing an aboriginal land claim.

308 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:38:25pm

When I was quite young, probably ten a kid would bug me and bug me. We were both at this day care place. Punches in the arm or whatever. This went on and on. Finally I snapped and tried to hurt him as I was being picked up.

My mom broke us up, and the very instant my mom let go of my arm I literally leaped back at him this time with far more serious intent. I hit him while he was still being held by the day care lady. She let go and it was on. I suppose It was really trying to beat him to at least unconsciousness. I had to go to the doctor a couple times, broken bones in my hand and severe bruising. My mother gave up trying to make me apologize or anything. I was far more willing to be grounded than give an inch.

Fortunately I grew up & learned how bad that moment was for my soul.

309 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:38:56pm
310 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:39:10pm

re: #302 Alouette

But it’s OK to call someone “four-eyes” “midget” and “spider-legs” not to mention the every popular “fatso”

Really? Did someone say that? My goodness.

/

311 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:39:41pm

re: #274 Dark_Falcon

6th grade is a weird time, the only one in most male’s live when they are smaller than the girls.

Sixth and seventh grades the girls shot up. It was a mostly Asian school. I and about five other black and Caucasian girls were suddenly taller than anyone.

I still imagine myself to be very tall. (I’m 5 foot 6.) Going to mostly Chinese schools will do that to you.

312 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:39:50pm

re: #300 Charles

Wikipedia actually has an entry for Kill Haole Day.

We had May Day in Cleveland, but it wasn’t sanctioned by any grown-ups.

Still, it was openly discussed amongst certain bullies.

313 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:39:53pm

re: #300 Charles

Wikipedia actually has an entry for Kill Haole Day.

Wow. Still having incidents in 2006. That’s barbaric.

314 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:39:55pm
315 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:40:12pm

re: #291 Charles

Wanna talk about bullies — growing up in Hawaii, in the public schools they had something called “Kill Haole Day,” the last day of school. At the end of the day, the locals would line up on one side of the school yard and wait for “haoles” (white kids) to come out, then pounce and them and kick the living crap out of them. It was a mob composed entirely of bullies.

I avoided this festive occasion twice, by ducking out of the last class 30 minutes before the end. But I had a friend who actually ended up in the hospital one year.

Kinda sounds like a bunch of girls that used to follow me home from school. I used to take the long way and go out of the opposite side of the school to avoid them. I got in trouble fro being late home but i kept my books intact. Unfortunately the eventually caught on to my avoidance tactic and I had to admit to my Mom what was going on. She went to the school and confronted them about it. Worst thing I ever did! Made it worse by far. Got my butt kicked the very next day. So much for parental protection… I can empathize with all picked on kids… its no fun!

316 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:40:20pm

re: #291 Charles

Apropos to that: SPLC on native racism in Hawai’i

317 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:40:39pm

re: #299 SanFranciscoZionist

We’re enumerating types of actions in order to define the action. The basic problem with bullying is that, as Osama bin Laden so accurately pointed out to us, people like the strong horse, and the bully is often the strong horse, the voice of social approval.

Kids who are being bullied get told:

“Let me teach you to kick a ball so those guys won’t call you a faggot.”

“Maybe if you go over there at lunch and talk to those kids instead of reading in the library, they’ll stop making fun of you for reading so much.”

“Well, maybe if you make some GIRL friends, and don’t hang out with the guys all the time, they won’t call you a slut”.

“If you didn’t dress like a goth, they’d stop pointing and leaving messages calling you ‘Columbine Killer’ in your locker.”

“The other students won’t call you ‘fucking dykes’ if you stop holding hands on campus so much.”

“If you don’t cry when they bully you, they’ll stop.”

This is common. The message is: fix yourself, and maybe they’ll leave you alone. The message behind that: they’re right.

We need to clarify what counts as bullying. It cannot be left to common sense. Adding sexuality to the definition is important, because it’s far too common in our present society to think that calling another child a faggot is casual teasing.

‘At’s all.

You left out “Laugh with them!

318 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:40:45pm

re: #281 Guanxi88

Do you wear a Borgia Ring?

Image: r50402.florturqring2.jpg

319 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:40:52pm

re: #301 Aceofwhat?

I think he (he? i’m assuming TP is male but boy have i screwed that up in the past…sorry again Brookly…) was specific in stating that the core of the statute would ban the action. So you’re covered.

Right on all counts, assuming gays still count as men.

(Kidding!)

320 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:41:05pm
321 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:41:29pm

re: #275 Alouette

Yes, it is a problem, because it provides an excuse for bullying those who are not in the “protected class.”

There is no such thing here. A straight kid is also protected from bullying based on sexuality.

Actually, no hate laws or bullying laws that I am aware of create protected classes.

322 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:41:37pm

re: #260 HoosierHoops

I don’t care for Bullies.. I don’t recall ever being Bullied in School…
But there were times I’ve stepped in for my classmates in school
*maybe you want a piece of me*
I was kind of popular in school so I never really had to back it up and could get a Bully to shut up and back off…
Of course there was this other guy on the Basketball team that I fought with in practice all the time..Drove the coach insane…It was the kind of fight we would just rolled around the floor and people would pull us apart…A lot of yelling and stuff but no punches thrown…

I got my first suspension in the 3rd grade because he was being bullied and it continued until he finally had a major growth spurt the summer between middle and high school. I got my last suspension as a jr and he was a freshman. As a sr. I was voted “most likely to go to prison”. In my, and his, defense we moved a lot. I never started and finished a year at the same school until I was in high school so we were always the new kids.

323 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:41:42pm

re: #291 Charles

Wanna talk about bullies — growing up in Hawaii, in the public schools they had something called “Kill Haole Day,” the last day of school. At the end of the day, the locals would line up on one side of the school yard and wait for “haoles” (white kids) to come out, then pounce on them and kick the living crap out of them. It was a mob composed entirely of bullies.

I avoided this festive occasion twice, by ducking out of the last class 30 minutes before the end. But I had a friend who actually ended up in the hospital one year.

Youch! Glad you avoided that. I wonder why that was even tolerated though. That sort of thing really should be stepped on, hard.

324 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:41:45pm

re: #318 Decatur Deb

Do you wear a Borgia Ring?

[Link: www.eclecticvintage.com…]

No, but I do carry a snuff box, oddly enough.

(Eh, you’d never fit enough ipecac in something like that.)

325 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:41:50pm

re: #299 SanFranciscoZionist

TorrentPrime did a good job of explaining that he (he?) is attempting to define examples as opposed to motivations.

I think you’re being helpful along similar lines.

I think it’s perfectly logical to enumerate examples of banned behavior, and I’m sorry if that’s what you and/or others meant all along and it took me this long to get it…

326 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:42:13pm

re: #321 SanFranciscoZionist

‘cuz straight kids never get called ‘fag’ as a form of bullying.


/oh wait!

327 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:42:58pm

re: #313 Silvergirl

Wow. Still having incidents in 2006. That’s barbaric.

Man that just sucks! I’d just love to toss a bunch of those racist little brats into a school in south central L.A. and see how they fare!

328 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:43:14pm

re: #314 MandyManners

Going ape-shit on someone can be very intimidating.

Exactly true. If they’re pretty sure that you’re harmless if left alone, but unpredictable when agitated, persons of ill intent will give you a wide berth.

329 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:43:16pm

re: #325 Aceofwhat?

I think your actual mistake was in thinking saying “this behavior is banned” meant also that “that behavior isn’t banned”

330 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:43:27pm

re: #323 Dark_Falcon

My high school, all white, was totally lawless with kids getting the crap kicked out of them all the time. They’d set fires and shit. Out trophy case had wire mesh, ‘cuz glass got broken.

It sucked hardcore. Oh, and the teachers were bullies, too.

331 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:43:29pm

re: #325 Aceofwhat?

TorrentPrime did a good job of explaining that he (he?) is attempting to define examples as opposed to motivations.

I think you’re being helpful along similar lines.

I think it’s perfectly logical to enumerate examples of banned behavior, and I’m sorry if that’s what you and/or others meant all along and it took me this long to get it…

Ace, let me take this a step further: if a bill ever comes along that says, “the action and the motivation must be listed in sub-section Q in order to be banned”, I’ll join you in opposing it.

332 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:43:39pm

re: #314 MandyManners

Going ape-shit on someone can be very intimidating.

Don’t try to out-weird me, three eyes - I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal.

333 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:43:58pm

re: #319 torrentprime

Right on all counts, assuming gays still count as men.

(Kidding!)

you’re all man, baby. you can even grab my ass. i just can’t reciprocate.

334 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:44:12pm
335 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:44:12pm

re: #311 SanFranciscoZionist


I still imagine myself to be very tall. (I’m 5 foot 6.) Going to mostly Chinese schools will do that to you.

I’m surrounded by Chinese at work, but, oddly enough, they’re all of them (except for the women) taller than I am. Even they notice it.

336 brookly red  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:44:44pm

re: #321 SanFranciscoZionist

There is no such thing here. A straight kid is also protected from bullying based on sexuality.

Actually, no hate laws or bullying laws that I am aware of create protected classes.


When you come right down to it IMO, bullying is the root cause of gangs…

337 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:45:20pm
338 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:45:23pm

re: #335 Guanxi88

Heh, the first (certainly wrong) thought that came to mind was “Malnutrition as a kid”.

339 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:45:45pm

re: #281 Guanxi88

In middle school -with a strict no-fighting policy - had a beef with one of my classmates. He was taller, stronger, and, in general, better built for combat than I was.

I removed my glasses, folded my hands behind my back, and invited him to take a shot, but, if he did, he should know that I’ll settle the score later.

A swing, a pop, and out flies a tooth and blood.

It was stupid and childish, and, in the weeks that followed, he and I patched over our differences and got to be kinda chummy.

Brought him his soda one day at lunch. Cherry Coke it was.

He took a nice long drink and slowly turned green and bolted for the bathroom. He was in the stall, convulsing from the dry heaves that a doubled-up dose of ipecac syrup will cause to a person who’s already vomited himself clean.

He looked up at me.

“Gotcha, ya son of a bitch!” And then I kicked him in the back of the head.

Same punishment for that as if I’d have thrown a punch back at the start of it.

Oddly enough, I never had any problems like that again.

Back when I was teaching middle school, a colleague of mine had a student who was being hassled by another seventh grade boy. The bully was tiny, the bullied was a big guy for their age.

He couldn’t get this kid to stop. He couldn’t bring himself to hit a much smaller child. So on this fateful day, when they were in the boy’s room together, and the bully started in again, this kid grabbed the other child’s backpack, slung it in the urinal, unzipped his pants and peed on it.

It was one of those conferences where the adults need to keep stern faces but keep having to leave the room to giggle.

340 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:45:46pm

re: #335 Guanxi88

I’m surrounded by Chinese at work, but, oddly enough, they’re all of them (except for the women) taller than I am. Even they notice it.

Watching the Olympics figure-skating competition, it is very hard not to notice that the Western girls are so much bigger than the Asians.

341 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:45:50pm

re: #331 torrentprime

Ace, let me take this a step further: if a bill ever comes along that says, “the action and the motivation must be listed in sub-section Q in order to be banned”, I’ll join you in opposing it.

we’re in lockstep.

342 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:46:01pm
343 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:46:28pm

re: #338 windsagio

Heh, the first (certainly wrong) thought that came to mind was “Malnutrition as a kid”.

In my case, just untold generations of Slavic Jews in the background. We get the occasional Volga boatman, but most of us are kinda small….

344 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:46:47pm

Calvin’s Bully: Moe

(quick cartoon—not a big read)

345 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:47:06pm

re: #290 Alouette

You still don’t get it. I was not picked on because I was perceived to be “gay.” I was picked on because I was short, skinny and wore glasses. The fat kids were also picked on. Nobody was picked on for being “gay” although this was back in the 50’s/60’s.

That’s also not allowed. Which isn’t to say that, like all the rest of this, it doesn’t happen.

346 brookly red  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:47:09pm

re: #342 MandyManners

I thought one cause is the lack of a cohesive family of origin.

safety in numbers… same as it ever was.

347 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:47:14pm
348 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:47:43pm

re: #329 windsagio

I think your actual mistake was in thinking saying “this behavior is banned” meant also that “that behavior isn’t banned”

no, i was saying (and still am) that “this behavior is banned if done for reason X” is illogical if the behavior is already banned outright.

my mistake was thinking that TP and SFZ disagreed on that point. they do not.

349 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:48:01pm

re: #344 Silvergirl

I love that one, because its a realistic depiction of what actually happens to the ‘mouthy, smart, yet smaller’ kid >>

350 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:48:10pm

re: #291 Charles

Wanna talk about bullies — growing up in Hawaii, in the public schools they had something called “Kill Haole Day,” the last day of school. At the end of the day, the locals would line up on one side of the school yard and wait for “haoles” (white kids) to come out, then pounce on them and kick the living crap out of them. It was a mob composed entirely of bullies.

I avoided this festive occasion twice, by ducking out of the last class 30 minutes before the end. But I had a friend who actually ended up in the hospital one year.

Southern Poverty Law Center’s magazine did a piece on anti-white hate crimes in Hawaii last year.

My husband grew up there. Still got some issues.

351 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:48:19pm

re: #339 SanFranciscoZionist

Back when I was teaching middle school, a colleague of mine had a student who was being hassled by another seventh grade boy. The bully was tiny, the bullied was a big guy for their age.

He couldn’t get this kid to stop. He couldn’t bring himself to hit a much smaller child. So on this fateful day, when they were in the boy’s room together, and the bully started in again, this kid grabbed the other child’s backpack, slung it in the urinal, unzipped his pants and peed on it.

It was one of those conferences where the adults need to keep stern faces but keep having to leave the room to giggle.

See, the kid getting hassled in this case - a bright, inventive, and decisive young man like that - well, he’s the kinda guy you want on your side.

352 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:49:07pm

re: #283 MandyManners

Dominance and violence are hard wired into the majority of the male human being. We are literally built to fight. Physiology and all.

353 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:49:32pm

re: #311 SanFranciscoZionist

Sixth and seventh grades the girls shot up. It was a mostly Asian school. I and about five other black and Caucasian girls were suddenly taller than anyone.

I still imagine myself to be very tall. (I’m 5 foot 6.) Going to mostly Chinese schools will do that to you.

Here in L.A. I have to look down at a majority of the women I meet and I’m 5”5. Some of them are down right tiny and I feel huge! I’ve even helped a few at the grocery store because they cant reach the item they want on the top shelf!

354 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:50:02pm

When my oldest daughter was having difficulty socializing in her school because she lived in the “wrong” neighborhood, we transferred her to another school and she made a variety of friends. She also included in her circle of friends, other girls that she sensed were being shunned for various reasons (the overweight girl, the goth girl, etc.)

355 keloyd  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:50:21pm

I got out of Hawaii early enough to avoid Kill Haole Day (at age 0.5), but heard about it from the parents. As long as Hawaii is only 1/4 white, who’s going to stop it? No one that’s who. Human nature is nudged a little by religion and laws and adults when we’re small. Mostly, we’re just one more species that belongs on the Discovery Channel fighting over territory and females.

356 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:50:39pm

re: #338 windsagio

Heh, the first (certainly wrong) thought that came to mind was “Malnutrition as a kid”.

Might be something to it. A study of the 1950 and subsequent generations in Korea would show. It’s the genotype-phenotype thing. All ROK army guards serving in the Joint Security Area were required to be over 6 ft, do freak out their DPRK counterparts.

357 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:50:42pm
358 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:51:23pm

re: #354 Alouette

When my oldest daughter was having difficulty socializing in her school because she lived in the “wrong” neighborhood, we transferred her to another school and she made a variety of friends. She also included in her circle of friends, other girls that she sensed were being shunned for various reasons (the overweight girl, the goth girl, etc.)

Your daughter is a really good kid, I can tell!

359 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:51:24pm

re: #354 Alouette

When my oldest daughter was having difficulty socializing in her school because she lived in the “wrong” neighborhood, we transferred her to another school and she made a variety of friends. She also included in her circle of friends, other girls that she sensed were being shunned for various reasons (the overweight girl, the goth girl, etc.)

Before getting transferred to a military academy (for the ipecac incident) I was part of such a group. Outkasts Local 13, we called ourselves, like we were in a union or something.

360 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:52:00pm

re: #357 MandyManners

Girls, and women in general, are vicious. Guys just beat each other, women are MEAN!

361 brookly red  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:52:09pm

re: #357 MandyManners

Girl-bullying is more psychological.

till the blades come out…

362 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:52:22pm

re: #300 Charles

Not just Wiki, check this out!

Hawaii has a terrible racial issue, exacerbated by the history of the US and Hawaii, which is truly terribly ugly. If you read Imperial Cruise by James Bradley, you’ll see what I mean. Not that violence is justified, just saying this for perspective.

363 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:52:37pm

re: #355 keloyd

What the hell do you mean “As long as Hawaii is only 1/4 white, who’s going to stop it?”

You think that non-white people are incapable of not bullying white people? What the hell, dude?

364 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:52:45pm
365 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:52:49pm

re: #359 Guanxi88

I get the feeling that that really develops in HS (I know it did at my schools). Except for the one or 2 poor kids who are at the absolute BOTTOM of the pecking order (I’m sure everyone can remember who it was their year), in HS you seem to congeal into groups that stick together and stay away from everyone else.

366 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:52:50pm

re: #304 torrentprime

I don’t get it? So when I was bullied incessantly for being fat and a nerd for 3 years of junior high that got so bad, my parents took me to an anger management counselor to learn to deal and threatened to sue the bully’s parents? LOL. Trust me, I get it.

What you are focusing on is the erroneous belief that only certain classes get protection. That is not and never has been the case in these laws, and certainly not in anything I’ve defended.

I got taken to a child psychologist in the sixth grade. To learn to change my behavior so I’d get better grades and stop blaming the other kids for my problems. (It is a fallacy to think that being shoved into your locker and called ‘Snausage meat’ is a reason to let your grades slip.)

Dr. B can kiss my ass.

367 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:53:08pm

re: #352 Rightwingconspirator

Dominance and violence are hard wired into the majority of the male human being. We are literally built to fight. Physiology and all.

Quite Concur.

368 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:53:14pm

re: #361 brookly red

Or someone is thrown out the window.

369 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:53:35pm
370 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:53:48pm

re: #360 RogueOne

Girls, and women in general, are vicious. Guys just beat each other, women are MEAN!

heard a comedian say the other day (vulgarity removed here)…

“boys screw things up. girls are screwed up.

371 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:54:20pm

re: #366 SanFranciscoZionist

I got taken to a child psychologist in the sixth grade. To learn to change my behavior so I’d get better grades and stop blaming the other kids for my problems. (It is a fallacy to think that being shoved into your locker and called ‘Snausage meat’ is a reason to let your grades slip.)

Dr. B can kiss my ass.

OMFG. Really? That’s horrible.

372 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:54:29pm

re: #317 Alouette

You left out “Laugh with them!

“If you laugh too, it’ll be OK!”

373 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:54:31pm

re: #366 SanFranciscoZionist

When I was leaving my high school and telling the principal why I was leaving— that he let the bullies rule the school and abandoned any pretense of control— the principal just said, “Fine, run away and let them win.”

What an asshole.

374 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:54:38pm
375 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:55:15pm

re: #368 windsagio

Or someone is thrown out the window.

Or Obdicut is thrown off the porch…

376 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:55:37pm

re: #357 MandyManners

Girl-bullying is more psychological.

Um, Mandy I hate to differ with you but in my experience I got picked on and beaten up by a lot more girls than guys. There was a pair that even went so far as to destroy every book of mine they could lay their hands on. The ring leader went to jail for assault and battery as well as attempted murder just 6 months after I managed to back her down from really whaling on me! Don’t as me how I managed it, to this day I really don’t know how I got her to back down.

377 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:55:38pm
378 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:55:49pm

re: #375 Aceofwhat?

Heh. I’ll just come right back in.

379 brookly red  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:55:55pm

re: #368 windsagio

Or someone is thrown out the window.

huh, a local verbal warning has long been “can you fly?” … gravity is after all the universal weapon.

380 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:55:56pm

re: #354 Alouette

When my oldest daughter was having difficulty socializing in her school because she lived in the “wrong” neighborhood, we transferred her to another school and she made a variety of friends. She also included in her circle of friends, other girls that she sensed were being shunned for various reasons (the overweight girl, the goth girl, etc.)

One year my best friend and I started defending the most picked on girl in grade school. But it was in a strange way. We’d go touch hands with her and pick up the “cooties” and then chase the other kids and tag them with the cooties, then go back to Mary and get some more. It made Mary laugh and smile, which was quite unusual.

381 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:56:06pm

re: #366 SanFranciscoZionist

I got taken to a child psychologist in the sixth grade. To learn to change my behavior so I’d get better grades and stop blaming the other kids for my problems. (It is a fallacy to think that being shoved into your locker and called ‘Snausage meat’ is a reason to let your grades slip.)

Dr. B can kiss my ass.

Still, it likely was the best idea your parents had. They couldn’t affect the bullying culture, so they tried to get make you less likely to be targeted by it. Not nice, but I do understand it.

382 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:56:10pm

re: #345 SanFranciscoZionist

That’s also not allowed. Which isn’t to say that, like all the rest of this, it doesn’t happen.

I think what Alouette is saying, if I understand correctly, is that traditional bullying is, at its core, not motivated by race, religion, sexual orientation or the violation of any other category of “human rights”. Instead, it is generally motivated by the simple animal desire of one individual to physically dominate another weaker individual.

383 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:56:24pm

re: #377 MandyManners

I suspect your spirit is already pretty much broken by the time you get enough experience to be a Principal. >>

384 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:56:36pm

You guys are making very happy I “wasted” High School +1 in the seminary. I think I remember a fight. (If someone lost a watch, it would be pinned to the bulletin board until the owner picked it up). Social life sucked though.

385 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:56:40pm
386 brookly red  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:57:22pm

re: #374 MandyManners

Never saw a weapon in my travails. However, I whipped out a knife on one but in court no one could testify to what it looked like.

well the Bronx is and was a very unique place…

387 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:57:23pm

re: #384 Decatur Deb

No kidding. These stories make me think my HS was freakin’ paradise >>

388 keloyd  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:57:34pm

re: #363 Obdicut

What the hell do you mean “As long as Hawaii is only 1/4 white, who’s going to stop it?”

You think that non-white people are incapable of not bullying white people? What the hell, dude?

I will clarify. The minority without strength of numbers is always at a disadvantage. Change the ethnicity of who is 1/4 and who is 3/4 and the result is always the same. In Malaysia or Indonesia where the minority is the Chinese, I’m guessing it’s the same. It’s in our DNA to split into factions and start some shite.

In Hawaii, I’m out of the loop now, but I’m guessing the Asian parents will say it’s a shame, but not get too exersized about it. The White parents will say it’s a shame, but there’s not enough of them. We are all as bad as each other.

389 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:57:46pm
390 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:58:13pm
391 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:58:27pm

re: #389 MandyManners

oh don’t worry, I still think its absolutely awful. Its just interesting to think about why people do things :p

392 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:58:32pm

re: #388 keloyd

There are plenty of places with minorities of 1/4 that don’t get systemically picked on and fucked with.

393 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:59:07pm

Bullying behavior is one of the things we look for when evaluating job applicants. We have interns and college students who are often quite vulnerable, while some ARE bullies themselves, so we have to be especially careful about it. There are some signs you can look for, like a swaggering stance from someone who is in fact overweight and in poor condition. I also watch very closely how applicants behave around other employees in contrast to how they behave with those in authority.

That brings up another, related, thing I won’t tolerate, a lack of respect for people who do honest work. The latter, unfortunately, is endemic in this part of the country. A friend of mine, a cultural historian, hypothesizes that this is a distorted legacy of the slave-holding culture. There is a publisher here who is the world’s worst about this. She once sat across from me and referred to secretaries, janitors, and the like as “peons” with whom she could not be bothered. I told her to get her ass out of my building before I called my (very large) secretary to throw her out.

I did not invent these policies myself, of course. I learned a lot of it from Southwest Airlines, which for many years was voted the “best company in America to work for.” They applied the “no asshole rule” for decades before the term was coined. They had a policy that an applicant who was rude or demeaning to anyone in the company or associated with it would not be hired, regardless of the applicant’s qualifications and the company’s other needs. It didn’t matter if you were a senior captain with 10,000 hours of heavy jet time, if you were rude the security guard, the janitor, or the receptionist, you would have to seek employment elsewhere. It seems to have paid off for them.

394 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:59:33pm

re: #392 Obdicut

The culture is inherently sick in Hawaii, as compared to this issue. I don’t actually think there is any solution… Even populations would certainly make the fight evener tho’ :p

395 brookly red  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 2:59:52pm

re: #390 MandyManners

This was in a small, Southern town.

Southern? hmmm let me not get into the South Bronx…

396 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:01:10pm
397 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:01:41pm

re: #380 wrenchwench

One year my best friend and I started defending the most picked on girl in grade school. But it was in a strange way. We’d go touch hands with her and pick up the “cooties” and then chase the other kids and tag them with the cooties, then go back to Mary and get some more. It made Mary laugh and smile, which was quite unusual.

That is a strange way. I wonder if Mary was smiling and laughing to keep from crying. Was she more accepted after the cooties thing?

398 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:02:11pm

re: #394 windsagio

I think that things that look unsolvable in the current moment can basically vanish in a single generation. I’m amazed by how far race relations, and treatment of homosexuals, has progressed in my short life.

399 brookly red  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:02:14pm

re: #396 MandyManners

brilliant…

400 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:02:18pm

Gotta run folks. If I don’t do my chores before my spouse gets home….she’ll beat me.

Enjoy your night.

401 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:02:20pm

re: #357 MandyManners

I think so too. If you look at how we are built, you will notice the big blood vessels like arteries and the big nerve routes are on the inside of our arms and legs. Evolution is smart.

402 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:02:39pm

re: #326 windsagio

‘cuz straight kids never get called ‘fag’ as a form of bullying.


/oh wait!

The really fun discussion is “OK, you’re straight, and he’s straight, and you like screaming “fag” at each other for fun, and no one’s feelings are hurt. It’s still not appropriate, kiddos!”

Also, the pure terror you can create in a group of pubescent boys by telling them that ten percent of them will be gay. “It could be ANY of you!!! Bwaahahah!”

403 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:02:40pm

re: #385 MandyManners

Sounds as if they had some serious mental/personality disorder issues.

I was talking about the kind of bullying that is more subtle.

Oh I got plenty of that. My best friend was 5’9” blond and gorgeous and she liked to hang out with two others just like her. They called me her shadow because I was 5’5” and dark haired. Those two made my life miserable and made sure I knew I wasn’t welcome to hang out with them. Good thing my best friend stood up to them or else they would have trashed me too just like the two I mentioned before.

404 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:03:50pm

re: #398 Obdicut

Maybe. The underlying problems in Hawaii (the SPLC story is really good on this) make resolution very difficult. To get change like we’ve had with gays, you need a universal acceptance that the actions are wrong. In HI, you have the bullies believing that they’re the aggrieved party, and thats a tough nut to crack.

405 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:04:24pm

re: #393 Shiplord Kirel

Oh man, you reminded me of something at work that made me so mad.

We have Flor, a nice lady who comes into the office and does the trash, makes the coffee, and yes, cleans the bathrooms. When she cleans the bathrooms, obviously, we can’t use them.

At some marketing party, some of the marketing assholes had made up a song mocking her, with lyrics asking what the hell she was doing in there. And they didn’t even know her name. It made me fucking red with anger. Luckily HR felt the same way and chewed their asses out.

If someone fucking cleans up your disgusting mess, you give them respect. Jesus.

406 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:04:43pm

re: #396 MandyManners

Brilliant.

407 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:04:58pm

re: #396 MandyManners

That’s why it’s very instructive to notice how a date treats waitstaff in a restaurant.

I love the Wait staff in restaurants..I like to be kind, Fun and tip well..
The next time you visit you get the best service in the world..
It’s called a seed and an enjoyable evening

408 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:05:44pm

re: #404 windsagio

Sure. I’m just saying when I was younger I thought there was no way the tiny minority of gays would ever be able to be open in high schools anywhere— being ‘gay’ when I was a kid was total social ostracism. I’m just saying don’t give up on cultural shift, but not that it necessarily comes easy.

409 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:06:01pm

re: #398 Obdicut

I think that things that look unsolvable in the current moment can basically vanish in a single generation. I’m amazed by how far race relations, and treatment of homosexuals, has progressed in my short life.

see? we can adapt quickly!

(i kid…i kid…)

410 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:06:07pm

re: #404 windsagio

Take a look at the history, if you have not already. They are the aggrieved party. Not to justify of course!

411 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:06:20pm

re: #402 SanFranciscoZionist

hah! That’s brutal >>

I sometimes feel like ‘fag’ is to some degree sliding away from especially referring to gays (see: moron), but we’re still a long ways from that.

412 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:06:48pm

re: #408 Obdicut

Or fast… These things take time.

413 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:08:42pm

re: #407 HoosierHoops

I love the Wait staff in restaurants..I like to be kind, Fun and tip well..
The next time you visit you get the best service in the world..
It’s called a seed and an enjoyable evening

NOW it’s getting interesting.

Used to be a waiter. Nowadays, when i go out, I’m always polite, regardless of what happens (because if something really sucks, you yell at the manager, not the waiter) but I find that i’m harder on their tips than my friends.

Funny how your standards change once you’ve done a job and feel you did it right…

414 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:09:06pm

re: #408 Obdicut

Sure. I’m just saying when I was younger I thought there was no way the tiny minority of gays would ever be able to be open in high schools anywhere— being ‘gay’ when I was a kid was total social ostracism. I’m just saying don’t give up on cultural shift, but not that it necessarily comes easy.

Amen. When I read stories (from outsports.com and similar) of high school football players coming out openly in high school, it makes me weep. It wasn’t and never will be easy, but it is nice to know that America and the world in general didn’t need 200 years to work this one out.

415 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:09:07pm

re: #410 Rightwingconspirator

Their way of dealing with it is awful :p

I do grant your point. They have a reason to be upset.


Its something I want to be really critical of, but hell, what would I do if I were in that situation?

416 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:09:16pm

re: #404 windsagio

Maybe. The underlying problems in Hawaii (the SPLC story is really good on this) make resolution very difficult. To get change like we’ve had with gays, you need a universal acceptance that the actions are wrong. In HI, you have the bullies believing that they’re the aggrieved party, and thats a tough nut to crack.

Especially if they are, in classic liberal terms, the aggrieved parties in the sense of belonging to an expoited ethnic or socio-economic group.

417 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:09:25pm

re: #396 MandyManners

I love the way you think Mandy, you just confirmed the reason why you are one of my favs to converse with… :-)

418 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:09:37pm

re: #369 MandyManners

What did he tell you to do?

We worked on getting in touch with the ‘rebellious SFZ’ who prevented me from doing my best.

419 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:09:56pm

re: #396 MandyManners

That’s why it’s very instructive to notice how a date treats waitstaff in a restaurant.

What an excellent idea! It wouldn’t cost much to invite applicants to lunch and see how they behave. I might try to start arranging that. Better yet, I could send them without me after arranging for a report from the wait staff. I know an ideal place for this, not too expensive and they know me pretty well.

420 keloyd  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:10:15pm

re: #392 Obdicut

There are plenty of places with minorities of 1/4 that don’t get systemically picked on and fucked with.

True. Those are some nice places. There are others that are much worse than one day a year of crap. I’m sort of lucky growing up in a more diverse environment with just barely a plurality of Anglos. I had to deal with a mix of upper class and poor hispanics, black kids, Jewish kids, Asians, and “other”. It’s better that way. It kept the kids so mixed that we pick our friends by some other criteria, in my experience.

421 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:11:17pm

re: #416 Spare O’Lake

I’m not sure if I’d go too far with ‘exploited’ (from my research anyways). Wrongly conquered and deprived of their nation, sure.

422 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:11:33pm

re: #419 Shiplord Kirel

What an excellent idea! It wouldn’t cost much to invite applicants to lunch and see how they behave. I might try to start arranging that. Better yet, I could send them without me after arranging for a report from the wait staff. I know an ideal place for this, not too expensive and they know me pretty well.

yep. we always took management applicants to lunch, and that was one of the main reasons. get their guard down so that you can see what they’ll be like with their guard down.

423 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:11:37pm

re: #364 MandyManners

And, girl-bullying is planned.

Bullying by women can also have a bigger social element. In fact, social ostracism of the target is frequently the goal. Often, the bul;ly in such a case will network, getting as many other women as possible on their side, and conduct whispering campaigns against their target. They offer lies - usually easily disproven were they to see the light of day - to people who have a pre existing motive for not liking that person, and whom they can feel confident will buy what they are selling without asking too many questions. Their targets cannot respond to whatever is being said about them, so they cannot counter it, unless it eventually surfaces in public. I think this is one of those forms of bullying that actually is intrinsically cowardly. Very nasty stuff.

424 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:12:25pm

re: #381 Dark_Falcon

Still, it likely was the best idea your parents had. They couldn’t affect the bullying culture, so they tried to get make you less likely to be targeted by it. Not nice, but I do understand it.

I get it. And there were a bunch of issues involved. I was going to a ‘gifted and talented’ academic program I’d tested into, and my parents were being told that keeping me in it was a lot more important than my mental health.

One nice thing about having kids later in life, I think, is that some of the crap my parents went through with being given lousy advice—I’m going to be ten-twelve years older than they were, and more set in my ways.

425 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:12:45pm

re: #419 Shiplord Kirel

What an excellent idea! It wouldn’t cost much to invite applicants to lunch and see how they behave. I might try to start arranging that. Better yet, I could send them without me after arranging for a report from the wait staff. I know an ideal place for this, not too expensive and they know me pretty well.

Man, what I wouldn’t give to find a boss like you someday…

426 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:13:00pm

re: #411 windsagio

hah! That’s brutal >>

I sometimes feel like ‘fag’ is to some degree sliding away from especially referring to gays (see: moron), but we’re still a long ways from that.

It is sliding away. (More personal TMI:) Most of my friends are straight, and they all decided on a rule. Whenever they call anything gay or call someone a fag (several times a day, normally), they must look to me or yell if they think I am in earshot and say, “Love you, [torrent]” They know they don’t mean homosexuals, and I know they don’t mean anything by it, so it’s never a foul, but they know what the word is and what it could sound like, and, so, they adapt. N.B. : I had nothing to do with this rule; they all came up with it on their own.
Not to mention the brilliant southpark on this topic.

427 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:13:21pm

re: #414 torrentprime

Amen. When I read stories (from outsports.com and similar) of high school football players coming out openly in high school, it makes me weep. It wasn’t and never will be easy, but it is nice to know that America and the world in general didn’t need 200 years to work this one out.

Someday in the future when I retire I want either a bistro In Napa Valley or a titty bar..I’ve got time to make up my mind..*wink*

428 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:13:22pm

re: #382 Spare O’Lake

I think what Alouette is saying, if I understand correctly, is that traditional bullying is, at its core, not motivated by race, religion, sexual orientation or the violation of any other category of “human rights”. Instead, it is generally motivated by the simple animal desire of one individual to physically dominate another weaker individual.

That’s true. I think it’s possible, though, to educate kids away from that, rather than toward it.

I have to say, Catholic schools are the best for that that I have seen so far.

429 albusteve  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:13:39pm

re: #421 windsagio

I’m not sure if I’d go too far with ‘exploited’ (from my research anyways). Wrongly conquered and deprived of their nation, sure.

yup, depends on the definition of exploited…therefore one could just back up a agree their were robbed of the land and culture

430 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:13:49pm

re: #397 Silvergirl

That is a strange way. I wonder if Mary was smiling and laughing to keep from crying. Was she more accepted after the cooties thing?

Mary would be known as a “special needs” kid these days. I never saw her cry, but I’m pretty sure her life was very unhappy. One of her problems was incontinence. And she had false teeth. She liked to sing, which she did very badly. She’s still a mystery to me.

431 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:14:30pm

re: #426 torrentprime

that’s just cool

432 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:14:47pm

re: #426 torrentprime

I forgot the SP on that very issue (which was a LITTLE heavy-handed, but brilliant :D). I was thinking of the earlier dust-up over “retard”.

Same thing tho’… how do you let the shift happen while still protecting the insulted parties from harm (harm in the loosest terms)?

433 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:16:14pm

re: #429 albusteve

Their culture is relatively healthy. Certainly better than some mainland tribes I can think of.

~~

Actually I think thats why the HI thing sticks in my craw a little bit. The Indians have things so much worse, and aren’t dealing with it in this awful way.

434 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:17:00pm

re: #425 Dragon_Lady

Man, what I wouldn’t give to find a boss like you someday…

Hahaha. Not so fast…he didn’t offer to pay for the lunch.

435 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:17:26pm

re: #366 SanFranciscoZionist

I got taken to a child psychologist in the sixth grade. To learn to change my behavior so I’d get better grades and stop blaming the other kids for my problems. (It is a fallacy to think that being shoved into your locker and called ‘Snausage meat’ is a reason to let your grades slip.)

Dr. B can kiss my ass.

What a strange coincidence, my exotic dancer name is ‘Beggin’ Strips’.

436 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:17:28pm

re: #433 windsagio

of course thats easy for me to say :P I have privilege up the yin-yang.

437 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:17:34pm

re: #425 Dragon_Lady

Man, what I wouldn’t give to find a boss like you someday…

(Blush) Thank you. I can be very demanding and, er, I am not noted for patience; but I always try to put myself in the other person’s position.

438 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:18:08pm

re: #405 Obdicut

Oh man, you reminded me of something at work that made me so mad.

We have Flor, a nice lady who comes into the office and does the trash, makes the coffee, and yes, cleans the bathrooms. When she cleans the bathrooms, obviously, we can’t use them.

At some marketing party, some of the marketing assholes had made up a song mocking her, with lyrics asking what the hell she was doing in there. And they didn’t even know her name. It made me fucking red with anger. Luckily HR felt the same way and chewed their asses out.

If someone fucking cleans up your disgusting mess, you give them respect. Jesus.

Worked at a school once where the parents were volunteer janitors.

Came the day when Mrs. Sanchez’s daughter explained to the boys that their bathroom had not been cleaned because it was too disgusting for her mother to think about.

Hope they recall the day they cleaned it themselves, and learned some dang respect.

439 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:18:16pm

re: #432 windsagio

I forgot the SP on that very issue (which was a LITTLE heavy-handed, but brilliant :D). I was thinking of the earlier dust-up over “retard”.

Same thing tho’… how do you let the shift happen while still protecting the insulted parties from harm (harm in the loosest terms)?

It helps if “we” (we being the insulted party) aren’t assholes about it.

I’ve had several drunken conversations with good ol’ boys explaining that they are tired of feeling guilty for stuff they didn’t mean, and my way of handling such situations helped them “over” the issue. “My way” being near total indifference as long as the air is cleared at some point.

440 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:18:22pm

re: #419 Shiplord Kirel

What an excellent idea! It wouldn’t cost much to invite applicants to lunch and see how they behave. I might try to start arranging that. Better yet, I could send them without me after arranging for a report from the wait staff. I know an ideal place for this, not too expensive and they know me pretty well.

You know, at my last job my desk was between two people that fought all the time when I first started working there.. when I left they were getting alone just fine because i worked real hard to keep the laughter flowing. I’ve been gone a year now and I hear their back to fighting again…*sigh*. All my hard work gone. :-(

441 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:18:26pm

re: #435 goddamnedfrank

What a strange coincidence, my exotic dancer name is ‘Beggin’ Strips’.

Do you wear an eye patch in your act?

442 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:19:34pm

re: #434 Spare O’Lake

Hahaha. Not so fast…he didn’t offer to pay for the lunch.

Nah, paying for lunch don matter, its the work place I’m talking about! I hate a hostile work place…

443 windsagio  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:19:57pm

re: #439 torrentprime

That gets into the issue of advocacy groups of course.

You’re totally right tho’… any social circles with a fair number of gays in them (at least in my experience) tend to use the term a fair deal, but the discussion about it has generally come up at least once too.

Like you said, ‘clearing the air’.

444 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:22:09pm

re: #437 Shiplord Kirel

(Blush) Thank you. I can be very demanding and, er, I am not noted for patience; but I always try to put myself in the other person’s position.

Hard work doesn’t scare me. I love it! It’s the attitude of the boss and co-workers that matter! Good attitude = less stress, less stress = happier me!

445 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:24:59pm

Well, I have more housework to do. Dishes, pick up and a whole host of things I’m neglecting while chatting. Have a great evening and Keep Laughing Everyone! :-)

446 keloyd  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:25:01pm

re: #433 windsagio

Their culture is relatively healthy. Certainly better than some mainland tribes I can think of.

~~

Actually I think thats why the HI thing sticks in my craw a little bit. The Indians have things so much worse, and aren’t dealing with it in this awful way.

I;m guessing it’s opportunity. Where else are white kids a minority AND the majority has a historical grudge? Put one English kid in an Irish school; put one Spaniard in a Basque school. Same thing, I’m guessing. How is it in NYC noaadays? I don’t know how much to believe from various movies.

In other news, everything we need to know about how to improve ethnic relations is in Clint Eastwoods movie Gran Torino.

447 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:25:40pm

re: #443 windsagio

That gets into the issue of advocacy groups of course.

You’re totally right tho’… any social circles with a fair number of gays in them (at least in my experience) tend to use the term a fair deal, but the discussion about it has generally come up at least once too.

Like you said, ‘clearing the air’.

Yeah, I’m too laid back for serious in-your-face advocacy… but I do tend to mess with people who use the term around/to me without knowing it applies to me. Faking outrage and getting all huffy (“Oh no you dih-n’t!”) …. for about 10 seconds until I say, “just kidding. I’m f’ing with you. I’m gay, btw. ”
Amazing what humor can accomplish.

448 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:28:08pm

re: #441 Decatur Deb

Do you wear an eye patch in your act?

You must have caught my act in the Big Easy. Yes, at the end it’s just me, the eyepatch, in ugg boots, and a deep lingering air of discomfort about the room.

449 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:35:44pm

My bullying story involving girls is when I was in 8th grade. I hung out with a girl named Cindy during the summer between 7th and 8th. I met her through another friend who I had gone to church with a few times. I didn’t go back to the church because it was fire and brimstone and speaking in tongues and it scared me—but that’s a tangent and another story altogether. So school starts and I naturally drifted into my usual circle of friends from the last school year, though I also attempted to include Cindy. Cindy was very possessive and apparently didn’t feel I was doing enough for her as a friend. I did have my bestest best friend Karen already and Cindy could barely tolerate her even though Karen was nice to her.

One day I got off at my bus stop and Cindy got off with a big thug of a girl. It was not Cindy’s bus stop and it wasn’t even Big Thug Girl’s bus. BTG does all this fake polite stuff and asks if she can hold my books and proceeds to gently take them out of my hands and put them on the ground. Then she tells me I might want to take off my clean white sweater (a cardigan) so I won’t get it dirty. As I’m taking it off and asking why it should get dirty, a side punch explodes in my ear. She grabbed my hair and was swinging me around by it. At some point Cindy took my sweater and spread it on the ground and sat on it. When the beating was over and I went staggering home with blood and bite marks everywhere, my mother didn’t even mess with the school. We piled in the car and went to the police station. I remember on the ride there my hair was coming out in big clumps as I was massaging my sore scalp.

I never saw either of the girls ever again, even to this day. Cindy was sent to Catholic school (by her Pentecostal parents) and I don’t know what the heck happened to BTG. She just disappeared.

Strange how this bully talks brings up things for so many of us that transports us instantly to our past.

450 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:37:28pm

re: #449 Silvergirl


Strange how this bully talks brings up things for so many of us that transports us instantly to our past.

Agree. Worse? The feelings that Columbine evoked.

451 keloyd  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:41:26pm

The question is what society has done that stripped away all the coping mechanisms from the kids (and not a few adults) that snap and kill a bunch of people. Bullying is a constant presence through all time and space, so bullying itself cannot be the cause.

452 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:48:33pm

re: #451 keloyd

The question is what society has done that stripped away all the coping mechanisms from the kids (and not a few adults) that snap and kill a bunch of people. Bullying is a constant presence through all time and space, so bullying itself cannot be the cause.

I think (from personal experience) a sense of isolation and how stacked the deck is affects the victim. A powerless school, indifferent parents, an entire class on the bully’s side (all subjective, of course) can change how an individual sees the calculus of “fighting back.”
The situation of a kid who has several friends and a decent home life being bullied just isn’t the same as a kid who has no friends and absent parents (or, worse, parents that blame the victim!) going through the same.
Also, “bullying” that refers to systematic day-long abuse in a school zone isn’t the same as getting chased or picked on after school for 30 minutes a few times a week. It’s always a matter of degrees, imo.

453 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 3:58:02pm

re: #452 torrentprime

I think (from personal experience) a sense of isolation and how stacked the deck is affects the victim. A powerless school, indifferent parents, an entire class on the bully’s side (all subjective, of course) can change how an individual sees the calculus of “fighting back.”
The situation of a kid who has several friends and a decent home life being bullied just isn’t the same as a kid who has no friends and absent parents (or, worse, parents that blame the victim!) going through the same.
Also, “bullying” that refers to systematic day-long abuse in a school zone isn’t the same as getting chased or picked on after school for 30 minutes a few times a week. It’s always a matter of degrees, imo.

That’s for sure. Bullying in general sucks, but there are degrees and variations. Supportive parents are a godsend, and it’s a big support to have a few other friends to commiserate with. Who really knows which is worse in your examples of being chased and picked on vs. day-long abuse? I suppose that depends on what a person is feeling inside—how well they stand up to the abuse. I would rather have taken the beating I did than to be bullied day after day and have to suffer every day. I feel deeply for kids who eat lunch alone and who have to keep taking endless ridicule or are flat out ignored.

454 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 4:07:42pm

re: #366 SanFranciscoZionist

I got taken to a child psychologist in the sixth grade. To learn to change my behavior so I’d get better grades and stop blaming the other kids for my problems. (It is a fallacy to think that being shoved into your locker and called ‘Snausage meat’ is a reason to let your grades slip.)

Dr. B can kiss my ass.

LAUGH WITH THEM!

455 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 4:19:40pm

re: #235 Aceofwhat?

seriously. smart women are straight sexy.

And not just the straight ones.

456 Vambo  Tue, Mar 2, 2010 4:22:47pm

wow!

where’s the Mayan prophecy discussion? I haven’t seen anyone bring that up yet, even in jest, then again I don’t know how often this happens.

457 JustABill  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 7:27:54pm

Damn it, thats 1.26 microseconds less sleep I am going to get tonight…


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