The Texas Taliban

There’s been talk lately in Texas about seceding from the US. Even Republican Governor Rick Perry has broadly hinted that Texas should exercise its “tenth amendment” rights.

Well, here’s a website that makes me think it might be a good idea to let them do it: Repent Amarillo.

This is the Texas Taliban, similar in almost all respects to their Afghanistan soulmates, except that they pray to a different God.

And just to reinforce the point — the term “Army of God” is a rough translation of “Hezbollah.”

This is not a joke. They’re dead serious. The site is packed with militaristic imagery, and plays audio on some pages with martial music and the sound of gunshots. Their mission statement includes this list of heathen and/or demonic causes that they’ve marked for destruction:

Some of the possible missions that these two groups may be called upon to work will be some of the following:

1. Gay pride events.
2. Earth worship events such as “Earth Day”
3. Pro-abortion events or places such as Planned Parenthood
4. Breast cancer events such as “Race for the Cure” to illuminate the link between abortion and breast cancer.
5. Opening day of public schools to reach out to students.
6. Spring break events.
7. Demonically based concerts.
8. Halloween events.
9. Other events that may arise that the ministry feels called to confront.

These large events may involve both the intercessory prayer AND the soldier groups. Some of the smaller events that can be accomplished in between the larger events may be:

1. Sexually oriented businesses such as pornography shops, strip joints, and XXX-rated theaters.

2. Idolatry locations such as palm readers, false religions, and witchcraft. Many of the smaller missions listed above may be just prayer oriented missions for tearing down demonic strongholds or they may involve more aggressive use of soldiers and prayer warriors. Some other missions occasionally employed may be “undercover operations” where the groups show up together but are not publicly visible together to effect the outcome of a public meeting such as city commissioners meetings, etc.

And they don’t just talk about this. They’ve posted a Google map (they call it the “Warfare Map”) with markers for the locations of their current targets, including Buddhist churches and Islamic mosques, and even an Episcopal church because they don’t hate gays. Here’s the description on their map for St. Andrew’s Episcopal Church:

Referred to an OUTstanding Amarillo’s (Homosexual activists) website as a ‘gay friendly’ church. In other words, they do not tell homosexuals who attend this church that they must repent of the sin of homosexuality. This is a serious violation of scripture.

The Texas Observer has an account of Repent Amarillo’s relentless harassment of a private swinger’s club: He Who Casts the First Stone.

In June, when the building reopened, Repent Amarillo became an almost-constant presence, shouting through bullhorns, blasting Christian music, haranguing club members, following swingers in vehicles and sticking video cameras into people’s faces. The Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission has been called out twice. Police records show that nearby businesses have called frequently with noise complaints. Repent even showed up on occasion when the Route 66 building was rented out for non-swinger events. “They have been here every time we open our doors, regardless of what kind of functions we have, whether I’m down here doing maintenance, cleaning, whatever,” Mac says. “They don’t have a life. Well, I guess we are their lives. We’re their blood. At three or four in the morning, we’ll open the door, and there they are. They come waddling out of their vehicles with their cameras.”

At first, the swinger community was mystified by the attention. On the 60-some hours of surveillance footage the Meads have, a swinger can be heard telling a Repent member that the swingers haven’t done anything to bother them.“You’re going to hell, and it bothers me,” Grisham responds. “What bothers me is you’re going to hell.”

Perhaps the most insidious tactic Repent uses is trying to destroy the reputation of the swingers. In Amarillo, people can be ostracized over a whiff of impropriety. On one tape, Grisham directs followers to get the license-plate numbers in the Route 66 parking lot. “A new couple can be here three or four hours,” says Mac. “Whenever they leave, the Repent Amarillo group will call them by first and last name, know where they live, know where they work, just within a very few hours.”

It takes a lot these days for my jaw to drop, but this is seriously bad craziness.

(Hat tip: PZ Myers.)

Jump to bottom

1388 comments
1 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:47:06am

*speechless*

2 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:47:43am

4. Breast cancer events such as “Race for the Cure” to illuminate the link between abortion and breast cancer.

Do these morons really think that every woman who has had breast cancer has had an abortion?

3 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:48:20am

Gives a new meaning to "all my ex's live[d] in Texas."

4 pharmmajor  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:48:35am

Oh god... this makes my head hurt.

5 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:48:44am

re: #2 MandyManners

I would think they don't care. It's rhetorical points they're looking for and reality doesn't play much of a role in that.

6 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:50:02am

re: #2 MandyManners

4. Breast cancer events such as “Race for the Cure” to illuminate the link between abortion and breast cancer.

Do these morons really think that every woman who has had breast cancer has had an abortion?

There's a link? None of the breast cancer survivors I know had an abortion. Granted, that's about a dozen women. I also volunteered for Susan G. Komen for 5 years and never heard of such a thing.

7 RurouniKenshin  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:50:42am

Holy crap. I really shouldn't be surprised by this, though. What disgusting, hateful people.

8 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:51:14am

re: #5 oaktree

I would think they don't care. It's rhetorical points they're looking for and reality doesn't play much of a role in that.

Epic fail.

9 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:51:24am

Wonder who's signing up for gathering up the porn!! Ya think they have a big line for that one?

10 badger1970  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:51:47am

Glass houses does come into play. Nuts is nuts. It's the 21st century version of the Posse Comatatis (IIRC the '80s had a bunch of similar loons in WI).

11 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:51:50am

re: #6 marjoriemoon

There's a link? None of the breast cancer survivors I know had an abortion. Granted, that's about a dozen women. I also volunteered for Susan G. Komen for 5 years and never heard of such a thing.

I'd like to know where they get this. Well, other than their paternalistic asses.

12 Honorary Consul General  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:51:51am

I am pro-private-swingers club. Wait, what?

13 Kronocide  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:51:58am

Oh my.... now waiting for unique new strains of hate mail to start pouring in.

I've had an aversion to calling a US group 'Taliban' but in this case the term applies.

14 jaunte  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:52:11am

I don't want Texas to secede. I'd rather have Rick Perry spend the rest of his life confined to Amarillo.

15 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:52:34am

My kids all belonged to a youth organization called Tzivos Hashem, the "Army of G-D"

It was more like a Hasidic Boys and Girl Scouts, where they earned badges for doing stuff like giving charity, identifying kosher products at the supermarket, eating matzah on Passover, lighting candles at Hanukkah, helping their parents, brushing their teeth, learning Scripture and Talmud, etc.

16 reine.de.tout  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:52:42am

re: #1 Varek Raith

*speechless*

As am I.

17 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:52:51am

re: #14 jaunte

I don't want Texas to secede. I'd rather have Rick Perry spend the rest of his life confined to Amarillo.

Dressed up like an armadillo?

18 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:53:03am

Demonically based concerts?

I bet tickets to THOSE are sold out months in advance.

19 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:53:15am

Why hasn't anyone at the swinger's club slapped a restraining order on them?

20 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:53:40am

No one expects the American Inquisition. Seriously, though this is really alarming stuff. The sad part is I am not surprised. I feel reticent too about comparing a group to the Taliban or Hezbollah but these people seem hellbent on harassing anyone with a different life style than them. So, tell me how are these people for freedom? Oh that's right. They want the freedom to ruin other people's lives.

21 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:53:50am

The religious wing of the Mall Ninja Club. Now with more religious fervor to give that extra kick to your batshit insanity.

22 Honorary Consul General  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:54:06am

re: #19 MandyManners

Why hasn't anyone at the swinger's club slapped a restraining order on them?

We should go together and find out.
/

23 reine.de.tout  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:54:22am

re: #18 Guanxi88

Demonically based concerts?

I bet tickets to THOSE are sold out months in advance.

I want to know how one can even determine that it's a "demonically based" concert.

What's the criteria?

24 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:54:25am

re: #20 HappyWarrior

No one expects the American Inquisition. Seriously, though this is really alarming stuff. The sad part is I am not surprised. I feel reticent too about comparing a group to the Taliban or Hezbollah but these people seem hellbent on harassing anyone with a different life style than them. So, tell me how are these people for freedom? Oh that's right. They want the freedom to ruin other people's lives.

That's it.

25 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:54:46am

re: #11 MandyManners

I'd like to know where they get this. Well, other than their paternalistic asses.

I was gonna say, they can't just pull crap outa the air, but hell, maybe they can.

26 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:54:51am

re: #22 Cannadian Club Akbar

We should go together and find out.
/

Oh, dear.

27 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:55:01am

re: #23 reine.de.tout

I want to know how one can even determine that it's a "demonically based" concert.

What's the criteria?

Perhaps they're thinking of Mr. Zombie, easily one of the great geniuses of the late 20th century.

28 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:55:16am

re: #19 MandyManners

Why hasn't anyone at the swinger's club slapped a restraining order on them?

Maybe not to call more attention to themselves.

29 jaunte  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:55:17am

re: #23 reine.de.tout

Anything louder than a demolition derby.

30 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:55:17am

re: #25 marjoriemoon

I was gonna say, they can't just pull crap outa the air, but hell, maybe they can.

I'm gonna' Google.

31 abbyadams  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:55:49am

OT

Not really. Different state, same garbage.
Leaflets claim that ungodly dressed women provoke rape.


It continues with one essential theme: The sins of men are, in part, the fault of women, specifically women in tight-fitting clothing. Yates was annoyed. Then she got to a section on page two:
“Scripture tells us that when a man looks on a woman to lust for her he has already committed adultery in his heart. If you are dressed in a way that tempts a men to do this secret (or not so secret) sin, you are a participant in the sin,” the leaflet states. “By the way, some rape victims would not have been raped if they had dressed properly. So can we really say they were innocent victims?”
32 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:56:37am

re: #20 HappyWarrior

No one expects the American Inquisition. Seriously, though this is really alarming stuff. The sad part is I am not surprised. I feel reticent too about comparing a group to the Taliban or Hezbollah but these people seem hellbent on harassing anyone with a different life style than them. So, tell me how are these people for freedom? Oh that's right. They want the freedom to ruin other people's lives.

Oh it's totally Hizbollah like. It's religious based terrorism. The harassment of the swingers shows that clearly, along with the lying crap they put out as gospel.

33 badger1970  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:56:40am

re: #23 reine.de.tout

I want to know how one can even determine that it's a "demonically based" concert.

What's the criteria?

Definition of demonically based music, aka Rock music

3) Rock-n-Roll is one of the most demonically based forms of music in world history. If you are fighting with your children or your grandchildren about Rock, this video will give you the ammunition you need to convince your loved ones of the Satanic nature of Rock-n-Roll. You will also see how Rock-n-Roll is preparing the masses of youngsters to be the future army of Antichrist, just as Cutting Edge has been saying for 10 years! This video is as powerful as it is, because it was written by an insider who is now Born Again. If you like the hard-hitting style of Cutting Edge, you will absolutely love this beautifully produced video.

34 brucee  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:56:41am
And just to reinforce the point — the term “Army of God” is a direct translation of “Hezbollah.”

"Hezb" in Arabic means "party" in mostly a political sense. However, it doesn't change the fact that as you noted their only difference is the deity they bow towards.

35 RurouniKenshin  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:56:50am

re: #23 reine.de.tout
It has to be something awesome. Like GWAR. The more awesome, the more demonically-based.

36 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:56:52am

re: #31 abbyadams

OT

Not really. Different state, same garbage.
Leaflets claim that ungodly dressed women provoke rape.

Gee, where have we heard that before...
Oh, yeah...

37 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:57:19am

re: #20 HappyWarrior

No one expects the American Inquisition. Seriously, though this is really alarming stuff. The sad part is I am not surprised. I feel reticent too about comparing a group to the Taliban or Hezbollah but these people seem hellbent on harassing anyone with a different life style than them. So, tell me how are these people for freedom? Oh that's right. They want the freedom to ruin other people's lives.

No one should be surprised at all. The same basic theologies that these "christians" follow is just a variation on the same theme over and over. It goes all the way back to British-Israelism, over 200 years old, and has morphed through the KKK, Covenant groups and the such.

Look up the La Porte church in Colorado, they have been spouting this stuff for 30 or so years.

Nothing new, but none the less, dangerous.

38 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:57:23am

re: #23 reine.de.tout

I want to know how one can even determine that it's a "demonically based" concert.

What's the criteria?

Do they spend the entire time praising themselves for praising God? If not, then it's a demonically based concert. Pretty simple, really.

39 Randy W. Weeks  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:57:37am

Texas: it's a whole 'nother country.

We're not all crazy down here, but crazy is a time-honored tradition in the Lone Star State and we have more than our share for sure.

40 Honorary Consul General  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:57:50am

re: #31 abbyadams

OT

Not really. Different state, same garbage.
Leaflets claim that ungodly dressed women provoke rape.

Rapist need to be beaten. I hope Charles doesn't see this as a violent post.

41 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:59:11am

[Link: www.abortionbreastcancer.com...]

[Link: www.cancer.gov...]


I'm gonna' bet that the first link is not all that accurate in light of the findings on the second link.

42 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:59:31am

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

No one should be surprised at all. The same basic theologies that these "christians" follow is just a variation on the same theme over and over. It goes all the way back to British-Israelism, over 200 years old, and has morphed through the KKK, Covenant groups and the such.

Look up the La Porte church in Colorado, they have been spouting this stuff for 30 or so years.

Nothing new, but none the less, dangerous.

I guess I am shocked by this since I live in a relatively secular area and had a secular upbringing. Though I do remember knowing people whose parents would take them to abortion clinics to harass the women and abortion workers. I've since become anti abortion both politically and morally but I draw a line there.

43 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:59:37am

re: #28 marjoriemoon

Maybe not to call more attention to themselves.

Well, I wouldn't want people to know if I were into kink.

44 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:59:48am

1. Sexually oriented businesses such as pornography shops, strip joints, and XXX-rated theaters.

They will need to make sure they case it inside first to see how many of their own men they might kill.

Or one of their favorite politicians.

Or Pee Wee Herman.

45 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:59:51am

This is getting to the point that these people's right to practice their religion freely is impingin on other people's right to the pursuit of happiness.

And in asmuch as there is no reasoning with these people, we have to use the law to keep them in line.

46 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 10:59:58am

re: #23 reine.de.tout

I want to know how one can even determine that it's a "demonically based" concert.

What's the criteria?

rock - n - roll

Or anything that isn't prayer music, I'm guessin.

47 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:00:31am

This is what happens when you live in a society with a 1st amendment guarantee of free speech. They are entitled to spout whatever nonsense they feel like just like we're entitled to make fun of them for those same views. Calling them the american taliban is going a bit far. Picketing businesses and enterprises we disagree with is an american tradition. When they start dragging people into the streets and beheading them for violating what they consider their religious duties then you can call them taliban. Don't lessen the term.

48 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:00:40am

re: #46 marjoriemoon

rock - n - roll

Or anything that isn't prayer music, I'm guessin.


Anything that involves biting heads off bats...

49 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:00:48am

re: #31 abbyadams

OT

Not really. Different state, same garbage.
Leaflets claim that ungodly dressed women provoke rape.

Right. Because we all know that cleavage is actually a gun that we hold to a man's head.

50 abbyadams  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:00:50am

re: #40 Cannadian Club Akbar

I woke up to see a friend of mine had sent me that article. And now this post at LGF. Not a good day for this Christian, not at all. It makes me want to go to the streets and take back that word. It's a good word, and I'm sick of seeing it dragged through the mud by people who have no intention on acting like the person it's based on.

51 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:01:56am

re: #35 RurouniKenshin

It has to be something awesome. Like GWAR. The more awesome, the more demonically-based.

Naw... anything classified as rock is on the list. Steely Dan would be on the list. Joan Baez, Joni Mitchell, the most mundane would be on the list. All of it.

52 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:02:12am

re: #47 RogueOne

This is what happens when you live in a society with a 1st amendment guarantee of free speech. They are entitled to spout whatever nonsense they feel like just like we're entitled to make fun of them for those same views. Calling them the american taliban is going a bit far. Picketing businesses and enterprises we disagree with is an american tradition. When they start dragging people into the streets and beheading them for violating what they consider their religious duties then you can call them taliban. Don't lessen the term.


They seem to be moving out of ther Constitutionally protected rights of speech and association and into active intimidation and harassment. Those are not constitutionally guaranteed rights.

53 reine.de.tout  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:02:13am

re: #29 jaunte

Anything louder than a demolition derby.

Or perhaps, anything my kid would like.

54 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:02:17am

re: #48 ralphieboy

Ozzie Osborn was on Greta. She asked him the crazies request he ever got.

Someone asked him to sign their colostomy bag.

That was the craziest thing that had ever been asked of Ozzie.

It is pretty bad.

55 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:02:34am

re: #34 brucee

"Hezb" in Arabic means "party" in mostly a political sense. However, it doesn't change the fact that as you noted their only difference is the deity they bow towards.


I don't see that noted anywhere.

56 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:02:41am

re: #47 RogueOne

What do you think of their 'warfare' map?

Given that there have been murders of abortion doctors, firebombing of clinics, etc, why is 'beheading people' the litmus test?

57 abbyadams  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:02:44am

re: #49 MandyManners

I actually got sick reading that article. Who the Frack believes that anymore?

58 badger1970  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:02:52am

re: #48 ralphieboy

Anything that involves biting heads off bats...

Alamo v. Ozzie

59 Honorary Consul General  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:02:56am

re: #50 abbyadams

I woke up to see a friend of mine had sent me that article. And now this post at LGF. Not a good day for this Christian, not at all. It makes me want to go to the streets and take back that word. It's a good word, and I'm sick of seeing it dragged through the mud by people who have no intention on acting like the person it's based on.

2 types of people should be allowed to be eliminated: Rapist and Child Molesters.

60 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:03:03am

re: #53 reine.de.tout

Or perhaps, anything my kid would like.

Young people use curse words!11!!!
/;)

61 reine.de.tout  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:03:11am

re: #33 badger1970

Aha!
So basically - everything, then.

62 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:03:22am

re: #47 RogueOne

This is what happens when you live in a society with a 1st amendment guarantee of free speech. They are entitled to spout whatever nonsense they feel like just like we're entitled to make fun of them for those same views. Calling them the american taliban is going a bit far. Picketing businesses and enterprises we disagree with is an american tradition. When they start dragging people into the streets and beheading them for violating what they consider their religious duties then you can call them taliban. Don't lessen the term.

They do more than picket. They cause problems for other businesses in the area. They violate the privacy of others by photographing/video-taping their faces.

63 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:03:33am

re: #50 abbyadams

Preach it, Sister.

64 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:04:17am

re: #57 abbyadams

I actually got sick reading that article. Who the Frack believes that anymore?

Quite a few.

65 abbyadams  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:04:19am

re: #59 Cannadian Club Akbar

I'm not as much of a gun enthusiast as some here, but if anyone ever touched one of my chicks, I have a 22 that I know how to use. Very well.

66 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:04:52am
I am a soldier. Even death cannot destroy me. For when my Commanding officer calls me from His battlefield, He will promote me to captain and then allow me to rule with Him.

This bit seems presumptuous to me. What if God's name really is "Jealous," what if he doesn't share power, and is in actuality deeply disappointed in these pig-ignorant dip shits?

67 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:05:06am

We can only hope that their leader will get caught on videotake bonking an underage girl while listening to Slipknot...

68 reine.de.tout  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:05:11am

re: #60 Varek Raith

Young people use curse words!11!!!
/;)

My daughter has some really awesome expressions!

Unfortunately for me, I used one of them once during a phone call with a friend, without realizing that she was in her car with several other folks and using her hands-free speaker.

LOL.

69 shiplord kirel  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:05:16am

There is a sizable local opposition group, Amarillo citizens against Repent Amarillo.
This claims to have over 700 members, vs. 120 or so for Repent Amarillo and a couple of hundred for RA's associate gang, Raven Ministries.
The latter is a national movement, btw, with affiliates in a number of cities.

"Repent Amarillo" resembles the Fred Phelps cult in more ways than one. According to the opposition group, the active membership is limited to "one family and 1-2 non-family members along with the husband and wife of another family who attend their events sporadically." The Phelps is well-documented to be limited to Phelps's immediate family and a handful of hangers-on.

70 Honorary Consul General  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:05:46am

re: #65 abbyadams

I'm not as much of a gun enthusiast as some here, but if anyone ever touched one of my chicks, I have a 22 that I know how to use. Very well.

A couple punches to the throat work as well. Just sayin'.

71 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:06:06am

re: #69 shiplord kirel

There is a sizable local opposition group, Amarillo citizens against Repent Amarillo.
This claims to have over 700 members, vs. 120 or so for Repent Amarillo and a couple of hundred for RA's associate gang, Raven Ministries.
The latter is a national movement, btw, with affiliates in a number of cities.

"Repent Amarillo" resembles the Fred Phelps cult in more ways than one. According to the opposition group, the active membership is limited to "one family and 1-2 non-family members along with the husband and wife of another family who attend their events sporadically." The Phelps is well-documented to be limited to Phelps's immediate family and a handful of hangers-on.

I wonder if there is any connection between the two.

72 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:06:12am

re: #43 MandyManners

Well, I wouldn't want people to know if I were into kink.

I guess if you do it in your house, it's one thing, but if you're at a public facility, you take that risk.

We've had some issues in S. Fla with the swinger clubs. Apparently some high school or middle school teachers were going. I don't remember how they were "caught", but I thought it was awful. What's it anyone's business?

73 ryannon  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:06:16am

re: #23 reine.de.tout

I want to know how one can even determine that it's a "demonically based" concert.

What's the criteria?

You have to listen to all their stuff backwards.

74 abbyadams  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:06:19am

re: #65 abbyadams

Er, .22. I know that much.

75 darthstar  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:06:25am

re: #34 brucee

"Hezb" in Arabic means "party" in mostly a political sense. However, it doesn't change the fact that as you noted their only difference is the deity they bow towards.

Same deity, different native language.

76 Locker  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:06:57am

I will never, ever understand how any group who claims to be "religious" and "morally superior" can waste so much time, money and energy attacking/hurting others. Do you know how much suffering could be alleviated in this world if these whack jobs would spend their time and money helping rather than attacking people who don't agree with their dogma?

Un... fucking... believable.

77 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:06:59am

re: #75 darthstar

Same deity, different native language.

No. Allah is a delusion from a mentally ill man in the Seventh Century.

78 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:07:04am

re: #42 HappyWarrior

I guess I am shocked by this since I live in a relatively secular area and had a secular upbringing. Though I do remember knowing people whose parents would take them to abortion clinics to harass the women and abortion workers. I've since become anti abortion both politically and morally but I draw a line there.

Protesting abortion clinics is the "softer" side of this problem. 30 years ago I have sat in "meeting" of Covenant groups, who talked about an "Army of God" and talked about how western whites are the inheritors of the promises made to the Jews.

In this country, there has been a scattering of groups who felt that they were responsible to bring about all the "promises" in scripture. This has been going on for 200 years.

Joseph Smith was into these "theories." His movement didn't turn into a militant group, but he certainly felt that he was handed a revelation from g-d that he and his followers (read "whites") had inherited from g-d what the Jews had lost.

He was setting up a new Salem.

The militant "Army of God" folks follow a similar concept, that whites are the inheritors of the promises to the Jews.

And some of them want to make sure they get what they believe they have coming.

79 Honorary Consul General  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:07:11am

Me stepping away for a bit.

80 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:07:39am

re: #77 MandyManners

It's all magic and fairy dust, to me.

81 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:07:39am

To me the most interesting item on the list is #9, "Other events that may arise that the ministry feels called to confront."
That could be anything. That could be anything from a gay support group meeting on a college campus to a bar(Assuming they find alcohol consumption immoral.)

82 badger1970  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:07:59am

re: #73 ryannon

ELO's "Fire on High"

83 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:08:03am

re: #72 marjoriemoon

I would like to state for the record I don't care where anyone's wing-wang swings or their delectables get delighted. As long as it involves consenting adults, it's all fine with me.

Just don't expect me to be interested in it.

84 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:08:51am

re: #47 RogueOne

This is what happens when you live in a society with a 1st amendment guarantee of free speech. They are entitled to spout whatever nonsense they feel like just like we're entitled to make fun of them for those same views. Calling them the american taliban is going a bit far. Picketing businesses and enterprises we disagree with is an american tradition. When they start dragging people into the streets and beheading them for violating what they consider their religious duties then you can call them taliban. Don't lessen the term.

They condone terrorist behavior for sure. Dr. Tiller was killed by these kind of people. They are not beyond murder. I have no problem with analogy to terror groups.

I support THEIR 1st amendment right to free speech. I'm fine to see who they are. In fact, I want to.

85 shiplord kirel  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:08:55am

These idiots are only about a hundred miles from me. I don't frequent palm readers or swinger's clubs, but I strongly suspect that my public support for evolutionary theory would easily make me just as prominent a target.

86 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:09:15am

re: #83 Obdicut

I would like to state for the record I don't care where anyone's wing-wang swings or their delectables get delighted. As long as it involves consenting adults, it's all fine with me.

Just don't expect me to be interested in it.


These people are obsessed with swinging wing-wangs and sources of delectability. To the point that they have to interfere with other people's pursuit thereof.

87 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:09:23am

re: #6 marjoriemoon

re: #2 MandyManners

There is no known link between abortion and breast cancer that is taken seriously.

As is often the case with fringe medical claims, there was a paper which has some dispute over sample sizes and confounding factors that showed a *small, and very disputable* increase in breast cancer amongst women who had an abortion.

I do not know what the current state of the science is, however, even if the papers that claim this are born out, we are talking about the sort of thing where the effect is minuscule in terms of real numbers.

Of course, good science was never the watchword of the religious right. As is always the case, they saw one sentence in one paper and made an add campaign out of it. Abortion causes cancer... It is God's punishment etc... Much like the anti vaxers, once the meme is set in their little brains it will not go away.

As to the rest of this stuff, meet the enemy of everything America stands for.

The post I made about Perry in teh style of a sermon was only half a joke. Nothing in that post was not said at one point or another that I have heard or read from a Jesus freak.

I apologize for the term Jesus Freak. I am using it to distinguish these cretins from the good, decent and respectable Christians out there. I know l religions have their sociopaths. For us Jews Naturei Karta comes to mind and I really do not know what to call them on a public forum. Amongst Jews the words traitorous epikourus comes to mind. And the Muslims well Hezzballah and Taliban say it all.

88 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:09:40am

re: #76 Locker

I will never, ever understand how any group who claims to be "religious" and "morally superior" can waste so much time, money and energy attacking/hurting others. Do you know how much suffering could be alleviated in this world if these whack jobs would spend their time and money helping rather than attacking people who don't agree with their dogma?

Un... fucking... believable.

Because g-d told them to do it. It's their destiny. It's no different than any religious fervor, belief in something that cannot even be quantitatively proven gives some people the out they need for simply saying "it's g-d's will" and be done with it.

89 SpaceJesus  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:09:56am

there has to be a way to give it back to mexico. there has to be.

90 SpaceJesus  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:10:39am

well at least i have a map of all the things i want to see in amarillo i guess

[Link: www.repentamarillo.com...]

91 jaunte  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:10:45am

re: #89 SpaceJesus

Gracias, pero no queremos...

92 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:11:01am

re: #87 LudwigVanQuixote


I think they deep down have a problem with the fact that women are enouraged to undertake regular breast examinations. After all, it has been proven that they lead to heavy petting...

93 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:11:06am

re: #90 SpaceJesus

well at least i have a map of all the things i want to see in amarillo i guess

[Link: www.repentamarillo.com...]

Might be good for the tourism sector, the way they put that map together.

94 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:11:21am

One of the blue push pins on the "Warfare Map" is on this site:

Wildcat Bluff Nature Center
Last Updated by Raven on Sep 1, 2009
Behind the North building there is an earth circle. There is a pagan group in the Amarillo area with the same name. "Earth Circle" is one of the common names used for a worship area for pagans and witches...
-
Zoom here
95 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:11:22am

re: #90 SpaceJesus

Gosh, Spacey! That's a hoot!

96 Beany  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:11:26am

Just a small point - I believe that in arabic, hezbollah means 'party of God', not army of God. As in political party. Could be wrong though.

97 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:11:27am

re: #92 ralphieboy

I think they deep down have a problem with the fact that women are enouraged to undertake regular breast examinations. After all, it has been proven that they lead to heavy petting...

And that might lead to dancing!

98 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:11:56am

re: #78 Walter L. Newton

Protesting abortion clinics is the "softer" side of this problem. 30 years ago I have sat in "meeting" of Covenant groups, who talked about an "Army of God" and talked about how western whites are the inheritors of the promises made to the Jews.

In this country, there has been a scattering of groups who felt that they were responsible to bring about all the "promises" in scripture. This has been going on for 200 years.

Joseph Smith was into these "theories." His movement didn't turn into a militant group, but he certainly felt that he was handed a revelation from g-d that he and his followers (read "whites") had inherited from g-d what the Jews had lost.

He was setting up a new Salem.

The militant "Army of God" folks follow a similar concept, that whites are the inheritors of the promises to the Jews.

And some of them want to make sure they get what they believe they have coming.

It's not really protesting the abortion clinics, it's having kids harass and verbally abuse people. What you're talking about how Western Whites thinking they are the inheirtors of promises made to the Jews reminds me of the little I have heard about Christian Identity politics that basically says white Christians are the descendants of the original Israelites.

99 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:12:19am

re: #95 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Gosh, Spacey! That's a hoot!

He just wants some negative karma!
;)

100 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:13:26am

re: #87 LudwigVanQuixote

Of course, good science was never the watchword of the religious right. As is always the case, they saw one sentence in one paper and made an add campaign out of it. Abortion causes cancer... It is God's punishment etc... Much like the anti vaxers, once the meme is set in their little brains it will not go away.

The "abortion causes cancer" meme has been pushed over at "Gates of Vienna" by "Dymphna".

101 Kragar  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:13:45am

OK, these assholes are really starting to piss me the fuck off. Who the fuck made them the fucking morality patrol?

102 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:14:34am

re: #101 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

OK, these assholes are really starting to piss me the fuck off. Who the fuck made them the fucking morality patrol?

See No. 69.

103 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:14:37am

re: #101 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

OK, these assholes are really starting to piss me the fuck off. Who the fuck made them the fucking morality patrol?

God did. Just ask Him. Oh wait, that's right, they're also the final arbiters of what God says, so... You'll just have to take that one on faith. (Pun intended.)

/

104 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:14:44am

re: #98 HappyWarrior

It's not really protesting the abortion clinics, it's having kids harass and verbally abuse people. What you're talking about how Western Whites thinking they are the inheirtors of promises made to the Jews reminds me of the little I have heard about Christian Identity politics that basically says white Christians are the descendants of the original Israelites.

I am always amused and sickened by those fundies who claim to be the real Israelites...

The joke I make is "what, don't you have enough problems already?"

The serious undertone is that for them to replace us, we must disappear.

105 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:15:05am

re: #100 wrenchwench

The "abortion causes cancer" meme has been pushed over at "Gates of Vienna" by "Dymphna".

And I am not surprised because?

106 reine.de.tout  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:15:46am

re: #90 SpaceJesus

well at least i have a map of all the things i want to see in amarillo i guess

[Link: www.repentamarillo.com...]

They list a "compromised church":


St Andrew's Episcopal Church

Referred to on OUTstanding Amarillo's ( Homosexual activists) website as a "gay friendly" church. In other words, they do not tell homosexuals who attend this church that they must repent of the sin of homosexuality. This a serious violation of scripture.

107 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:16:00am

re: #77 MandyManners

No. Allah is a delusion from a mentally ill man in the Seventh Century.

No, Mandy. "Allah" is the Arabic word for God, it precedes Islam, and you will never be credible with your pious act until you stop pissing on the Name with your avatar.

108 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:16:05am

re: #98 HappyWarrior

It's not really protesting the abortion clinics, it's having kids harass and verbally abuse people. What you're talking about how Western Whites thinking they are the inheirtors of promises made to the Jews reminds me of the little I have heard about Christian Identity politics that basically says white Christians are the descendants of the original Israelites.

That's who I am talking about, they come under a number of different titles such as Christian Identity and Covenant Groups. But even the KKK's internal "theology" goes back to this Identity concept, and like I said, the Identity concept goes back to the around 1799 when a book was published about British-Israelism.

My point was, none of this is new, maybe surprising to some people, probably more dangerous than it has been in the past, but not new in the least.

109 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:16:15am

re: #105 LudwigVanQuixote

And I am not surprised because?

Your Surprise Detector 9000 is properly calibrated?

110 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:16:19am

Hmm, here's some Texans taking a different approach...

Dispatches From the Culture War

111 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:16:34am

re: #101 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

OK, these assholes are really starting to piss me the fuck off. Who the fuck made them the fucking morality patrol?

G-d did... didn't you get the memo?

112 reine.de.tout  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:17:39am

re: #93 Guanxi88

Might be good for the tourism sector, the way they put that map together.

And here's one of their "occult witchcraft sites":

Wildcat Bluff Nature Center
Last Updated by Raven on Sep 1, 2009
Behind the North building there is an earth circle. There is a pagan group in the Amarillo area with the same name. "Earth Circle" is one of the common names used for a worship area for pagans and witches.

I would be ROFL if this wasn't so scary.

113 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:18:03am

re: #68 reine.de.tout

My daughter has some really awesome expressions!

Unfortunately for me, I used one of them once during a phone call with a friend, without realizing that she was in her car with several other folks and using her hands-free speaker.

LOL.

Cell phone etiquette rule #23: Always announce who's on speaker.

114 Gus  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:18:05am

Creator of Texas Taliban website is a Pastor David H. Grisham which is noted in the article. You can see mug shot of him at Paliban Daily and he looks the part with his psycho eyes. He also runs another site called Boycott Houston. There you can see this screed:

Do you want a Texas version of San Francisco? Neither do we! Do you want Texas to be the abortion capital of America? Neither do we! Houston has elected an openly homosexual mayor and built the largest abortion clinic in the United States and you can do something about it! While you may or may not be a resident of Houston and eligible to vote for mayor, you can vote with your dollar.

This is why we are calling on Christians everywhere to boycott the city of Houston.

We want to impose “economic sanctions” on Houston, Texas! Please make your voice heard and join our cause. By signing the online petition you send Houston a message; That you are tired of babies being murdered and the radical homosexual agenda being shoved down the throat of normal society.

Texas is a Christian state! Help keep it that way! Don’t mess with Texas or Texas children.

115 teleskiguy  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:18:35am

I'd like to take a few of these people to a Widespread Panic rock concert, where they sing songs like "Me and The Devil Blues," "Faeries Wear Boots," "None of Us Are Free," "Tall Boy" (demon rum!), and that great Muddy Waters tune "Red Beans."

116 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:18:37am

re: #77 MandyManners

No. Allah is a delusion from a mentally ill man in the Seventh Century.

Uh, no Mandy, the Arabic term ﷲ (Allah) predates Islam:

Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God".[3] The Christian Arabs of today have no other word for 'God' than 'Allah'.[6] (Even the Arabic-descended Maltese language of Malta, whose population is almost entirely Roman Catholic, uses Alla for 'God'.) Arab Christians for example use terms Allāh al-ʼab (الله الأب) meaning God the Father, Allāh al-ibn (الله الابن) mean God the Son, and Allāh al-rūḥ al-quds (الله الروح القدس) meaning God the Holy Spirit (See God in Christianity for the Christian concept of God).

Arab Christians have used two forms of invocations that were affixed to the beginning of their written works. They adopted the Muslim basm-Allah, and also created their own Trinitized basm-Allah as early as the eight century CE.[25] The Muslim basm-Allah reads: "In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful." The Trinitized basm-Allah reads: "In the name of Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, One God." The Syriac, Latin and Greek invocations do not have the words "One God" at the end. This addition was made to emphasize the monotheistic aspect of Trinitian belief and also to make it more palatable to Muslims.[25]

According to Marshall Hodgson, it seems that in the pre-Islamic times, some Arab Christians made pilgrimage to the Kaaba, a pagan temple at that time, honoring Allah there as God the Creator.[26]

117 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:19:23am

re: #114 Gus 802

Creator of Texas Taliban website is a Pastor David H. Grisham which is noted in the article. You can see mug shot of him at Paliban Daily and he looks the part with his psycho eyes. He also runs another site called Boycott Houston. There you can see this screed:

He looks coked to the gills.

118 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:19:54am

re: #116 goddamnedfrank

I am talking about the delusion that Mohammed had, not about the word.

119 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:19:54am

re: #109 Varek Raith

Your Surprise Detector 9000 is properly calibrated?

It is good that wrenchwench pointed that out. People should know that these memes are wider spread then sensible folk should be comfortable with.

This sort of lunacy is a much bigger issue, and much more commonplace than any of us I think ever wants to really think about

That said, hearing that those folks believe this drivel is like hearing that puppies are cute or that the sky is blue.

120 ShaunP  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:20:34am
4. Breast cancer events such as “Race for the Cure” to illuminate the link between abortion and breast cancer.

I'm going to start linking things I don't like to society's ills and see if I can form a movement. Let's go with:

American Idol has been linked to herpes. Seacrest must pay!

Who want's to join my group?

121 ryannon  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:21:18am

And now, a short break for a word from our sponsor

122 Lidane  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:21:19am

re: #23 reine.de.tout

I want to know how one can even determine that it's a "demonically based" concert.

What's the criteria?

If I had to guess, if the band playing isn't a Christian band and the show's not held in a church and there's booze being sold, it's demonic.

123 Kragar  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:21:27am

re: #102 MandyManners

See No. 69.

I wonder what a deep dive of their personal lives would uncover. I'm sure they would object to anyone following them around 24/7 and uncovering their backgrounds. That would be harassment, dontcha know?

2 things I believe in strongly. One, Stay out of my business and I'll stay out of yours, and 2, what goes on between consenting adults goes on between consenting adults. These pigfuckers manage to cross both of those.

124 Kragar  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:22:20am

re: #111 Walter L. Newton

G-d did... didn't you get the memo?

G-D is on my blocked senders list. Too much spam and phishing.

125 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:22:24am

re: #123 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I wonder what a deep dive of their personal lives would uncover. I'm sure they would object to anyone following them around 24/7 and uncovering their backgrounds. That would be harassment, dontcha know?

2 things I believe in strongly. One, Stay out of my business and I'll stay out of yours, and 2, what goes on between consenting adults goes on between consenting adults. These pigfuckers manage to cross both of those.

That pretty much sums up my take.

126 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:22:28am

re: #114 Gus 802

Creator of Texas Taliban website is a Pastor David H. Grisham which is noted in the article. You can see mug shot of him at Paliban Daily and he looks the part with his psycho eyes. He also runs another site called Boycott Houston. There you can see this screed:

Permit me to translate...

We are afraid of anything different than our own narrow views. We will fight to impose them upon you and your children so that we do not have to think for ourselves. We are scared shitless of you and we want to kill you. Further, we have already rationalized the act of your murder for having these views, by saying we are protecting our kids.

127 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:22:54am

Religion offers so much comfort to people, people that are suffering in a world torn apart by... religion.

128 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:22:57am

re: #118 MandyManners

Amaterasu told me to tell you that she thinks your just ducky.

129 shiplord kirel  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:23:10am

re: #114 Gus 802

Creator of Texas Taliban website is a Pastor David H. Grisham which is noted in the article. You can see mug shot of him at Paliban Daily and he looks the part with his psycho eyes. He also runs another site called Boycott Houston. There you can see this screed:

Grisham really does look like a younger Fred Phelps

130 Lidane  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:23:11am

re: #39 LoneStarSpur

Texas: it's a whole 'nother country.

We're not all crazy down here, but crazy is a time-honored tradition in the Lone Star State and we have more than our share for sure.

True. I just wish our current crazy was more of the Kinky Friedman variety than the holy roller type. At least with Kinky, crazy is much more fun. ;)

131 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:23:53am

re: #124 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

G-D is on my blocked senders list. Too much spam and phishing.

You miss all the good stuff, then. Packets of Kool-aid mostly.

132 Gus  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:24:28am

re: #126 LudwigVanQuixote

Permit me to translate...

We are afraid of anything different than our own narrow views. We will fight to impose them upon you and your children so that we do not have to think for ourselves. We are scared shitless of you and we want to kill you. Further, we have already rationalized the act of your murder for having these views, by saying we are protecting our kids.

That covers it well. I was able to find an explanation by David H. Grisham:

The spiritual map on our Web site, which has generated so much controversy, is designed to do several things. Its purposes are to illuminate for Christians areas in which spiritual darkness is operating, provide a focus for their prayers, and to open their spiritual eyes as to the levels of encroachment that evil has penetrated our city. Amarillo Christians possess a false sense of spiritual security. Just because there is a church on every corner does not mean there is no evil lurking in the alleyways.

One of the missions of Repent Amarillo is to unite the body of Christ in Amarillo and bring down these strongholds within our city, and to do so within the Word of God and within the law. Christians need neither cower before the common culture nor apologize for seeking to dominate it.

Jesus confronted the culture of His day without condemning individuals. So should we.

Jesus did so boldly and without apology. And so should we.

133 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:24:55am

re: #120 ShaunP

I'm going to start linking things I don't like to society's ills and see if I can form a movement. Let's go with:

American Idol has been linked to herpes. Seacrest must pay!

Who want's to join my group?

Jersey Shore causes brain damage! Or you have to be brain damaged in the first place to want to watch it.

134 JeffM70  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:25:45am

What did Texas and South Carolina ever do to God that He would curse them with such insanity?

135 uninformed opinion  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:25:54am

years of cultivated hero worship and cultural engineering coming to fruition IMO.

I cant really say that i find this surprising. I live in a conservative area, and I could see this happening here. The city council and zoning board have been squeezing undesirable businesses out or not allowing others to start at the advice of local religious figures, although in a much less public way.

136 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:26:02am

Logos connected to paranoid delusions, story at 11PM.

137 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:26:42am

re: #118 MandyManners

I am talking about the delusion that Mohammed had, not about the word.

And yet you continue to use the word for metaphorical urinary water-sports while heaping profanity on those who would use the colloquial english term "goddammit." That seems like an incredibly hypocritical standard of behavior.

138 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:26:46am

re: #76 Locker

I will never, ever understand how any group who claims to be "religious" and "morally superior" can waste so much time, money and energy attacking/hurting others. Do you know how much suffering could be alleviated in this world if these whack jobs would spend their time and money helping rather than attacking people who don't agree with their dogma?

Un... fucking... believable.

The Self Righteous(TM) are more holy than you and I. They have Jesus in their pocket. They know exactly what he wants and doesn't want, and he doesn't want your lying heathen ass racing for the cure, praying for the Earth or looking at nekkid girlies, ok?? Ok!!!

139 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:26:59am

re: #127 idioma

Religion offers so much comfort to people, people that are suffering in a world torn apart by... religion.

And Idioma jumps into the conversation, painting with the broad brush again. get ready for straw men, hyperbole and all sorts of deflections and idiocy in attempts to paint all religion as a worthless endeavor.

Get ready, Idioma is here.

140 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:27:56am

re: #128 Varek Raith

Amaterasu told me to tell you that she thinks your just ducky.

Oookay.

141 ShaunP  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:28:04am

re: #133 Mad Al-Jaffee

Jersey Shore causes brain damage! Or you have to be brain damaged in the first place to want to watch it.

i think that might actually be true...

142 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:28:39am

Anyone else notice the five pointed star embodied in a circle on the American Hezbollah's website?

DEMONIC!

143 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:28:41am

re: #139 Walter L. Newton

As long as theist don't push their beliefs onto others, it's none of my damned business.
My $0.02
...
What was that thing at the end of Lost, last night?

144 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:29:08am

re: #140 MandyManners

Well, she did.
:shrugs:
:)

145 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:29:38am

re: #139 Walter L. Newton

And Idioma jumps into the conversation, painting with the broad brush again. get ready for straw men, hyperbole and all sorts of deflections and idiocy in attempts to paint all religion as a worthless endeavor.

Get ready, Idioma is here.

Religion is a human endeavor, which makes it as useful or worthless as those who pursue it

146 wiffersnapper  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:30:06am

*finger to mouth* BUHBUHBUHBUHBUHBUHBUHBUH, CUCKOO!

*facepalm*

147 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:30:21am

re: #91 jaunte

Gracias, pero no queremos...

lol The Mexicans have their own troubles!

148 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:31:24am

re: #143 Varek Raith

As long as theist don't push their beliefs onto others, it's none of my damned business.
My $0.02
...
What was that thing at the end of Lost, last night?

What "thing?" Clarify please?

149 badger1970  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:31:36am

re: #147 marjoriemoon

lol The Mexicans have their own troubles!

Thus the willing laborers come.

150 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:31:37am

re: #143 Varek Raith

As long as theist don't push their beliefs onto others, it's none of my damned business.
My $0.02
...
What was that thing at the end of Lost, last night?

ummm, the "credits"?!?!?!?!

//

151 The Yankee  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:32:09am

This is related to the Pro-life movement, they are the ones that do stuff like get license plates.

The thing is who is going to stand up against these people. It is never politically acceptable to stand up against churches in this country. And I imagine that Texas is one of those states where judges, commissioners and Prosecutors are elected to offices.

152 soap_man  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:32:20am

re: #143 Varek Raith

What was that thing at the end of Lost, last night?

That thing? I didn't see anything! What am I missing?!

Aaarg. LOST, you will be the end of me...

153 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:32:22am

re: #148 Walter L. Newton

What "thing?" Clarify please?

That cloud that was attacking people. I just caught the ending of the show last night.

154 SixDegrees  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:32:25am

re: #143 Varek Raith

As long as theist don't push their beliefs onto others, it's none of my damned business.
My $0.02
...
What was that thing at the end of Lost, last night?

What thing?

155 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:32:37am

re: #145 ralphieboy

Religion is a human endeavor, which makes it as useful or worthless as those who pursue it

In the past Idioma has treating ALL religion as evil personified.

156 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:33:20am

re: #98 HappyWarrior

It's not really protesting the abortion clinics, it's having kids harass and verbally abuse people. What you're talking about how Western Whites thinking they are the inheirtors of promises made to the Jews reminds me of the little I have heard about Christian Identity politics that basically says white Christians are the descendants of the original Israelites.

I thought that was the Black folks. Ben Yahwah had that group, the "original" Israelites. And to that I say....

WE (Jewish folks) AIN'T DEAD YET IF YOU HAVEN'T NOTICED!!!!

157 badger1970  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:33:23am

re: #155 Walter L. Newton

In the past Idioma has treating ALL religion as evil personified.

As in reference to his avatar?

158 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:33:30am

re: #127 idioma

Religion offers so much comfort to people, people that are suffering in a world torn apart by... religion.

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Ah-ah-ah-ah

159 SpaceJesus  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:33:35am

re: #106 reine.de.tout


yup, and the also consider islam to be idol worship for some reason too.

160 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:33:35am

re: #154 SixDegrees

What thing?

Was it Helen Thomas?

161 SixDegrees  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:34:11am

re: #153 Varek Raith

That cloud that was attacking people. I just caught the ending of the show last night.

That was John. I mean Jacob's nemesis. I mean the smoke monster. It's been making appearances since the first season, but now appears to be an alternate form that...whoever it is...can take.

Clear, now?

162 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:34:16am

re: #146 wiffersnapper

*finger to mouth* BUHBUHBUHBUHBUHBUHBUHBUH, CUCKOO!

*facepalm*

I so wish I was going to be home tonight, but I have a sekrit Zionist meeting at a downtown San Francisco bar with a fellow ZOG co-conspirator. Although I'm looking forward to the free-for-all discussion, tt would be equally interesting to hear what Mike Malloy has to say on the subject.

See, I could easily see (hear) Mike Malloy doing that on the air to describe these right-wing conservative/republican nutbars. I mean, what else is there to really say in the end, other than we're all hoping that the Feds are paying attention.

163 SixDegrees  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:34:33am

re: #160 Mad Al-Jaffee

Was it Helen Thomas?

That's another possible explanation.

164 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:34:38am

re: #154 SixDegrees

What thing?

THE Thing ,,, by VolksWagon!!
Image: volkswagen-thing-1974.jpg

165 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:34:39am

I think I've just taken my last holiday in the continental USA for a while.

166 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:34:52am

re: #144 Varek Raith

Send her my regards!

167 Gus  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:34:54am

re: #143 Varek Raith

As long as theist don't push their beliefs onto others, it's none of my damned business.
My $0.02
...
What was that thing at the end of Lost, last night?

Thou shall not blaspheme religion! Unless of course one means Islam.

/Post 911 logic.

/

168 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:35:18am

re: #19 MandyManners

Why hasn't anyone at the swinger's club slapped a restraining order on them?

IN BED!!!

(currently executing small dance of joy)

169 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:35:22am

re: #137 goddamnedfrank

And yet you continue to use the word for metaphorical urinary water-sports while heaping profanity on those who would use the colloquial english term "goddammit." That seems like an incredibly hypocritical standard of behavior.

Ah, had I more than one upding to give.

170 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:35:41am

re: #153 Varek Raith

That cloud that was attacking people. I just caught the ending of the show last night.

The Smoke Monster. been around since season one, six years ago, the Smoke Monster, who Dharma called the "cerberus," the Smoke Monster who can take the form of anyone who died but was not buried (Jacks father, all the dead Hurley has seen etc), who has also taken the shape now of Locke... that character... you remember... right?

171 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:35:42am

re: #160 Mad Al-Jaffee

Was it Helen Thomas?

Hey, Helen was a hottie back in the day. You know, "the face that launched a thousand ships"

172 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:35:53am

re: #155 Walter L. Newton

In the past Idioma has treating ALL religion as evil personified.

I must admit that I was put off religion by my Catholic upbringing and then my encounters with the Campus Crusade for Christ goombahs I met at college. Took me a while to get over that basic disinclination.

173 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:36:05am

re: #158 Alouette

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Ah-ah-ah-ah


[Video]

A sweet idea but in a world with the American Hezbollah in the West and the evil thugs Hamas in the East (among many others), tis just a dream.

174 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:36:26am

re: #171 Alouette

Hey, Helen was a hottie back in the day. You know, "the face that launched a thousand ships"

Now it looks like a thousand ships landed on it.

175 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:36:32am

re: #170 Walter L. Newton

The Smoke Monster. been around since season one, six years ago, the Smoke Monster, who Dharma called the "cerberus," the Smoke Monster who can take the form of anyone who died but was not buried (Jacks father, all the dead Hurley has seen etc), who has also taken the shape now of Locke... that character... you remember... right?

Actually I don't watch the show...yet. It just caught my eye last night.

176 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:36:37am

re: #156 marjoriemoon

I thought that was the Black folks. Ben Yahwah had that group, the "original" Israelites. And to that I say...

WE (Jewish folks) AIN'T DEAD YET IF YOU HAVEN'T NOTICED!!!

Ha ,,,, we still run a show (tape playout to satellite) from here every Sunday night
"The Universe Of Yahweh"

I shit you not ,, been doing it for years (even though he died about 6 years ago)

177 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:36:42am

re: #165 Spare O'Lake

I think I've just taken my last holiday in the continental USA for a while.

Why?

178 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:37:00am

re: #168 Aceofwhat?

IN BED!!!

(currently executing small dance of joy)

Feel better?

179 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:37:28am

re: #127 idioma

Religion offers so much comfort to people, people that are suffering in a world torn apart by... religion.

Ok. Most of us have offered opinions about what we wish 'moderate muslims' would do in the face of the mad craziness that is stalking their religion.

What should i say right now to help repudiate these people? Tell me what to say.

180 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:37:31am

re: #175 Varek Raith

Actually I don't watch the show...yet. It just caught my eye last night.

Oh... I though you watch. Ok. Here... this should confuse you...

[Link: lostpedia.wikia.com...]

181 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:38:23am

re: #171 Alouette

Hey, Helen was a hottie back in the day. You know, "the face that launched a thousand ships"

They were just escaping!!

182 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:38:59am
183 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:39:27am

re: #180 Walter L. Newton

Walter? How's that guy on the island still fat?

At a point, marooned on an island, don't you lose some weight after a while?

184 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:39:38am

re: #178 MandyManners

Feel better?

like a million$

185 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:39:53am

re: #167 Gus 802

Thou shall not blaspheme religion! Unless of course one means RADICAL Islam.

/Post 911 logic.

/

ftfy ,,, with the blessings of my mulsim freinds who say the same!

186 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:40:04am

Let's see, what have I accomplished today as far as spring cleaning my house?

Well, I dusted my printer, scanner and keyboard...

187 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:40:14am

re: #179 Aceofwhat?

Ok. Most of us have offered opinions about what we wish 'moderate muslims' would do in the face of the mad craziness that is stalking their religion.

What should i say right now to help repudiate these people? Tell me what to say.

Get thee behind me?

188 SixDegrees  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:40:24am

re: #183 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Walter? How's that guy on the island still fat?

At a point, marooned on an island, don't you lose some weight after a while?

There's been no shortage of food.

And it's currently...a little unclear just how long they've actually been there.

189 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:40:40am

re: #182 The Sanity Inspector

Kind of funny. My Granny (RIP) would've thought he was sinful for having facial hair.

190 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:40:44am

re: #185 sattv4u2

ftfy ,,, with the blessings of my mulsim muslim freinds who say the same!

pimf

191 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:40:46am

As though batshit religionists were not enough, Texas is also having trouble with crazy animals:

Upset emu attacks Texas deputies and snarls traffic before dying

Goat leads Texas authorities on chase through Taco Bell parking lot, university dorm area

Texas lawmen are really slipping. A hundred years ago, they would have had these varmints skinned, gutted, and roasting on a spit in less time than it takes to call 9-1-1.

192 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:40:53am

re: #124 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

G-D is on my blocked senders list. Too much spam and phishing.

ROFLLLLL!!

I'm a religious person. I totally believe, but that tickled me something fierce.

193 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:41:04am

re: #186 Alouette

Let's see, what have I accomplished today as far as spring cleaning my house?

Well, I dusted my printer, scanner and keyboard...

A journey of a thousand miles,...

194 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:41:09am

re: #165 Spare O'Lake

I think I've just taken my last holiday in the continental USA for a while.

Come to jacksonville. The beaches are clean, the weather's great, the taxes are low, the real estate isn't too expensive, and sanity is far less rare.

CCA would prob say the same about west coast florida, and he'd be right.

195 SpaceJesus  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:41:23am

where the hell are my royalties?

also, lol texas

[Link: www.jesuschristislordtravelcenter.com...]

196 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:41:26am

re: #188 SixDegrees

Then it makes sense. Ain't like "Cast Away" where you live on coconuts.

197 The Yankee  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:41:45am

This is a story about how the generic big church affects some people. The been apparently, teaching people military tactics for awhile. The story isn't entirely about the church but does speak on what happen when a kid needs help but it doesn't fit the churches agenda. And how bad the church makes feel about sexuality.
Big Church

198 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:41:59am

re: #196 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Then it makes sense. Ain't like "Cast Away" where you live on coconuts.

At least he had someone who didn't talk back to him

WILSON!!!!!

199 SixDegrees  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:42:24am

re: #196 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Then it makes sense. Ain't like "Cast Away" where you live on coconuts.

Right. There are other people and lots of supplies on the island.

200 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:42:32am

re: #182 The Sanity Inspector

Comstockery rides again...

Cockblocker.

201 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:42:50am

re: #200 Cato the Elder

Cockblocker.

Trojan Man !?!?!

202 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:42:59am

re: #187 MandyManners

Get thee behind me?

Their inability to respond is their own epic fail. I love winning without having to increase my pulse. Just wish i could do it more often.

i hate being fallible.

(too bad Ice isn't lurking - i need a kudos for my suave use of the singular 'they'...Cato?...can i get an Amen?)

203 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:43:20am

Texas College Campus Divided Over Bible for Porn Campaign

A Texas college campus is locked in a fierce debate after a group of students launched the "smut for smut" campaign, trading bibles and other religious texts for porn, MyFoxSanAntonio.com reported.

Atheist students at the University of Texas at San Antonio announced that any student over the age of 18 will receive pornographic materials if they trade in religious materials, according to MyFoxSanAntonio.com.

Leaders of this atheist campaign allege that porn is no worse than what's written in religious texts.

A university spokesman says that this controversial cause is completely legal, though he admits a majority of the students on campus do not agree with it, according to MyFoxSanAntonio.com.

The group will continue its activities on campus through the middle of the week, according to the site.

204 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:43:50am

re: #180 Walter L. Newton

Neat, thanks. Makes me want to watch the show even more. I think I'll netflix it.
:)

205 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:43:53am

re: #200 Cato the Elder

Cockblocker.

Yeah. He'd suck as a "wing-man".

206 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:44:07am

re: #177 MandyManners

Why?

Heavily armed and pissed off religious folks wearing fatigues might block the sun by the pool.

207 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:44:10am

re: #183 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Walter? How's that guy on the island still fat?

At a point, marooned on an island, don't you lose some weight after a while?

There was tons of unopened food stuff on the island. He was on the Island for about 3 months, then off the Island for 3 years, then back on the Island (in the past 1974-1977) for three years working for the Dharma Initiative (plenty of food) and now he is presently back on the Island in 2010 for only a few days, and he is off the Island in the NEW time line in Sept. 2004.

He's been close to food sources all the time. Did that answer your question?

208 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:44:14am

re: #194 Aceofwhat?

Come to jacksonville. The beaches are clean, the weather's great, the taxes are low, the real estate isn't too expensive, and sanity is far less rare.

CCA would prob say the same about west coast florida, and he'd be right.

Whats the temp/ humidity like in the summer. I have a place in South Carolina shore south of Myrtle Beach and wifey loves it 'cept for the humidity

209 Gus  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:44:18am

re: #185 sattv4u2

ftfy ,,, with the blessings of my mulsim freinds who say the same!

That works. Of course there are radical elements in a lot of religious sects with varying degrees of radicalism.

210 Kragar  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:44:24am

Someone finally came over to ask me if I knew I had been playing Iron Maiden for the last 3 hours. "Why yes. Yes I did."

211 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:44:40am

re: #183 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Walter? How's that guy on the island still fat?

At a point, marooned on an island, don't you lose some weight after a while?

Dinosaur meat is surprisingly fatty...

212 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:44:43am

Meanwhile, Fred Phelps's abominable group is in DC, protesting gay marriage.

213 keloyd  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:44:51am

Walter, MArjorie, Happy Warrior,
Everyone but the Jews has gotten a turn at being "Israel." Walter's comment reminded me of one of the books on my naughty shelf. I inherited some wacky stuff from one great aunt (who did not believe a word of it, but kept the books all the same.) It was fairly popular when the British empire was hitting on all 8 cylinders that all the nice prophesies about Israel really referred to them. I keep that book next to the x-rated anti-Catholic propaganda about how nunneries kidnapped golden haired innocent girls and forced them into all kinds of fun depravity. These are next to Mein Kampf, The Bell Curve, The Satanic Verses, and I have a space empty for when Pat Buchanan's latest Hitler book shows up on the $1 rack at Half Price Books.

re: #171 Alouette

Hey, Helen was a hottie back in the day. You know, "the face that launched a thousand ships"


Did these ships have paddle wheels? rows of slaves manning the oars? Did theses ships have Vikings on them?

214 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:45:37am

re: #203 Shiplord Kirel

Texas College Campus Divided Over Bible for Porn Campaign

Guns for teddybears! Now that I could get behind.

215 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:45:40am

re: #210 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Someone finally came over to ask me if I knew I had been playing Iron Maiden for the last 3 hours. "Why yes. Yes I did."

Not surprised...considering the stories you tell of your workplace.
;)

216 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:46:34am

re: #98 HappyWarrior

... What you're talking about how Western Whites thinking they are the inheirtors of promises made to the Jews reminds me of the little I have heard about Christian Identity politics that basically says white Christians are the descendants of the original Israelites.

In my dealings with the public as an activist for Israel here in the San Francisco Bay Area, I have noticed that there are a few blacks who believe that the Canaanites were the original inhabitants of "Palestine" and that all the Jews there are impostors on the land. Two weeks ago, in fact, one red-eyed (I think he was seriously high on something, given his slurred speech) African-American gentleman (I'm being polite here, mind you) told me I was no different from the Nazis, that all Jews were fakes and racists and the Palestinians, who were originally Cannanites, were also originally all black, are the true inheritors of the land. Granted, this was on the UC Berkeley campus, but this wasn't the first time I had heard this so-called "argument."

217 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:46:42am

re: #209 Gus 802

That works. Of course there are radical elements in a lot of religious sects with varying degrees of radicalism.

100% correct (my religion included)

218 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:47:07am

re: #207 Walter L. Newton

Thanks. I've seen clips and pictures (never watched) and this dude never dropped a pound.

Wasn't banging on him...

Tom Hanks about killed himself losing weight for Cast Away (and Philadelphia, for that matter).

219 Kragar  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:47:09am

re: #215 Varek Raith

Not surprised...considering the stories you tell of your workplace.
;)

Apparently I had begun to sing along to Aces High. I hadn't noticed.

220 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:47:21am

re: #214 Cato the Elder

which way would you want to go?

221 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:48:04am

re: #220 windsagio

which way would you want to go?

Thats kinda personal, no !?!?!

222 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:48:13am

re: #216 eclectic infidel

Sounds like these guys:

[Link: www.washingtoncitypaper.com...]

223 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:48:34am

re: #208 sattv4u2

Whats the temp/ humidity like in the summer. I have a place in South Carolina shore south of Myrtle Beach and wifey loves it 'cept for the humidity

Well...it gets a little hot, sure. But there's this narrow band. 1mi from the beach to 10mi from the beach...you get the ocean cooling effect / humidity mitigation effect but not increased real estate prices.

It's really a fascinating city layout...with downtown being 30min from the beach, there is literally so much land that real estate prices don't rise in correlation to beach proximity until you are 200' from the beach.

I live 8 minutes from the beach and didn't pay a cent more than i'd have paid in a similar neighborhood anywhere else in the burbs. It's unreal.

Short answer...I'm more comfortable than South Carolina in the summer.

224 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:48:46am

I am passionately opposed to swingers' clubs because of their close association with disco and doubleknit lesiure suits.

225 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:49:04am

re: #206 Spare O'Lake

Heavily armed and pissed off religious folks wearing fatigues might block the sun by the pool.

Wha'?

226 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:49:44am

re: #216 eclectic infidel

In my dealings with the public as an activist for Israel here in the San Francisco Bay Area, I have noticed that there are a few blacks who believe that the Canaanites were the original inhabitants of "Palestine" and that all the Jews there are impostors on the land. Two weeks ago, in fact, one red-eyed (I think he was seriously high on something, given his slurred speech) African-American gentleman (I'm being polite here, mind you) told me I was no different from the Nazis, that all Jews were fakes and racists and the Palestinians, who were originally Cannanites, were also originally all black, are the true inheritors of the land. Granted, this was on the UC Berkeley campus, but this wasn't the first time I had heard this so-called "argument."

I remember hearing about a so called "Black Israeli" cult headed by someone named Yahweh ben Yahweh. Crazy stuff that though. I've always thought racial supremacy was stupid personally since we're all mixed to some degree.

227 Kragar  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:49:51am

And next, Iron Maiden's Paschendale

HOME! FAR AWAY FROM THE WAR! A CHANCE TO LIVE AGAIN!

228 Neutral President  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:50:03am

re: #224 Decatur Deb

I am passionately opposed to swingers' clubs because of their close association with disco and doubleknit lesiure suits.

I believe your data is quite possibly outdated on the subject, although I have no first hand experience to verify this.

229 Varek Raith  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:50:05am

Good night, fellow lizards.
Been up 40 hours... :/

230 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:50:25am

re: #194 Aceofwhat?

Come to jacksonville. The beaches are clean, the weather's great, the taxes are low, the real estate isn't too expensive, and sanity is far less rare.

CCA would prob say the same about west coast florida, and he'd be right.

I just got back from the Gulf coast, and I never even got my shorts or bathing suit out of the suitcase...darn those localized temporary cooling trends!

231 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:50:31am

re: #216 eclectic infidel

In my dealings with the public as an activist for Israel here in the San Francisco Bay Area, I have noticed that there are a few blacks who believe that the Canaanites were the original inhabitants of "Palestine" and that all the Jews there are impostors on the land. Two weeks ago, in fact, one red-eyed (I think he was seriously high on something, given his slurred speech) African-American gentleman (I'm being polite here, mind you) told me I was no different from the Nazis, that all Jews were fakes and racists and the Palestinians, who were originally Cannanites, were also originally all black, are the true inheritors of the land. Granted, this was on the UC Berkeley campus, but this wasn't the first time I had heard this so-called "argument."

Have you ever checked out sites relating to the "Black Diaspora"? One in particular that I'm thinking about is run by a woman.

232 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:50:45am

re: #220 windsagio

which way would you want to go?

Hand in an eeevul teddybear, get a nice gun in exchange.

233 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:50:51am

re: #165 Spare O'Lake

I think I've just taken my last holiday in the continental USA for a while.

Well it's a shame that you're going to let a bunch of kooks dictate how you spend your vacations.. The U.S. is a big place and these extremists do not dominate here. You're going to tell me that you'll forgo Cape Cod in the winter, Colorado Springs during a summer's thunder/lightning storm, and Vegas in the month of November? Say it isn't so.

234 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:50:52am

re: #213 keloyd


Did these ships have paddle wheels? rows of slaves manning the oars? Did theses ships have Vikings on them?

These ships were triremes, in use during the time of Helen of Troy.

235 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:51:03am

re: #224 Decatur Deb

You're racist against leisure suits?!

236 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:51:35am

re: #224 Decatur Deb

I am passionately opposed to swingers' clubs because of their close association with disco and doubleknit lesiure suits.

I would rather be buried in a flour sack than alive in a leisure suit.

237 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:51:35am

re: #231 MandyManners

Have you ever checked out sites relating to the "Black Diaspora"? One in particular that I'm thinking about is run by a woman.

Rita from Detroit?

238 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:51:44am

re: #232 Cato the Elder

If nothing else, there's money to be made doing that :)

(that's what I'd do too >>)

239 keloyd  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:51:52am

re: #224 Decatur Deb

I am passionately opposed to swingers' clubs because of their close association with disco and doubleknit lesiure suits.

I'm all for zoning anything tawdry like that out of town, or into some grimy warehouse district. Just because we don't like this Amarillo taleban doesn't mean I can[t also respect property rights of anyone living around that sort of sleaze.

Targeting the Episcopal church and the Breast Cancer ladies - that's just some comic relief so long as it's 500 miles away.

240 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:52:08am

re: #237 Alouette

Rita from Detroit?

I don't remember her name or her location but, she's waaay out there.

241 brucee  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:52:34am

re: #55 wrenchwench

I don't see that noted anywhere.

I meant this:

This is the Texas Taliban, similar in almost all respects to their Afghanistan soulmates, except that they pray to a different God.


re: #75 darthstar

Same deity, different native language.

While technically all Abrahamic religions are worshipping the same god and just calling it different names, in practice I don't think if Taliban/Hezbollah and Army of God sit at the same table either would accept the other's god as but a fake one and his followers as misguided fools who shall repent ASAP or burn for eternity.

242 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:52:52am

re: #239 keloyd


Why do you want to zone it out of town, exactly?

Because you disapprove of consenting adults going into a building to have sex?

You realize they don't have the blinds open, right?

243 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:52:58am

re: #229 Varek Raith

Good night, fellow lizards.
Been up 40 hours... :/

Sorry about that. You're not driving anywhere, right?

244 keloyd  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:53:08am

re: #234 Alouette

These ships were triremes, in use during the time of Helen of Troy.

I know that word only from playing Civilization. Where's my Nerd Badge?

245 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:53:31am

re: #241 brucee

(somebody had to say this)

Like Pentacostalists and Catholics? (altho' I admit that's a one-way hate)

246 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:53:32am

re: #223 Aceofwhat?

Well...it gets a little hot, sure. But there's this narrow band. 1mi from the beach to 10mi from the beach...you get the ocean cooling effect / humidity mitigation effect but not increased real estate prices.

It's really a fascinating city layout...with downtown being 30min from the beach, there is literally so much land that real estate prices don't rise in correlation to beach proximity until you are 200' from the beach.

I live 8 minutes from the beach and didn't pay a cent more than i'd have paid in a similar neighborhood anywhere else in the burbs. It's unreal.

Short answer...I'm more comfortable than South Carolina in the summer.

Thanks ,,, I'll do some research.

I LOVE our place in SC, but I do have to live (and retire) with wifey ,, so,,,,,,,,,,,,

247 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:53:33am

re: #244 keloyd

I know that word only from playing Civilization. Where's my Nerd Badge?

There were quadriremes, too.

248 The Yankee  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:53:57am
In fact, I’d stopped masturbating for weeks at a time, trying to keep any thoughts of women out of my mind entirely, as we were taught over and again by pastors that even thinking about sex was as bad as actually having it. And masturbating? It might be okay, I once heard a pastor opine, if one could do it without thinking any sexual thoughts. But we were told: why take the risk?

Instead I would hold out for as long as I could until, usually in the shower, I’d be unable to stop myself. Before the orgasm had even left my body I would begin to pray: I’m sorry, Jesus. I’m so sorry. This is the last time. Never again.

Here is an excerpt..

Big church

249 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:54:21am

re: #236 Shiplord Kirel

I would rather be buried in a flour sack than alive in a leisure suit.

"i would wear velvet from head to toe if it were socially acceptable!"

250 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:54:25am

re: #235 windsagio

You're racist against leisure suits?!

The devil's dungarees.

251 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:54:38am

re: #248 The Yankee

Well, that's gonna screw you up.

252 Ayeless in Ghazi  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:54:45am
They are a "rabid group of religious nuts" who object to the usual targets of fundie hatred — gays — but also harrass people who visit sex shops, engage in consensual heterosexual activity outside the bounds of traditional marriage, and…well, here's a list of their targets.

Ringnuts!

253 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:54:52am

re: #240 MandyManners

I don't remember her name or her location but, she's waaay out there.

"Rita from Detroit" was a member of the NOI who used to phone in to Rush. She told him that she was going to be beamed up in Farrakhan's mothership. Really crazy stuff. Rush even had a song he played just for her.

254 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:54:54am

Long post. I bring it to illustrate how a science education would change the tone of American politics. This is excerpted from a book I am working on.

Before we go further, we have to clarify for the purposes of our discussion what we mean by science and what approach to faith we will take. Both science and theology have many terms, that when used, mean very specific and carefully defined ideas. Precise language is essential because without it, one can quickly lose the point, or be led to understand something completely different than what is being said. Unfortunately, everyday communication is rarely so technical. Much unnecessary conflict between scientists and believers comes from the misuse of technical words by confabulating them with their everyday meanings. Consider the following (painfully inadequate to a scientist) definition provided by a popular dictionary.

Science is, according to Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, "knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world."

So science does not address specific truths and specific laws as well?
What is this scientific method anyway? Worst of all, is the “especially as obtained by the scientific method” part because this implies there is at least
some science that was not obtained and tested through the scientific method. I don’t recommend suggesting this definition to a scientist any more than I would recommend suggesting that some pork is kosher to a rabbi.

Definition: Science means the body of knowledge about, and consistent models of, natural phenomena as only obtained and rigorously tested through the scientific method, or the act of obtaining such knowledge or creating such models through the scientific method.

This immediately implies that something which is outside of the scientific method is automatically neither science nor scientific. Now, “not scientific” does not necessarily mean bad, wrong, useless or untrue. For instance, the notion that one should treat animals compassionately has nothing to do with the definition of science, but has everything to do with ethics. Even though Shakespeare’s sonnets are not taught in Physics 101, they do beautifully express how some people feel about their spouses. On the other hand, “not scientific” means just that, and it can cut two ways. If an idea can not be approached by the scientific method, then it can never be either supported or denied by science

255 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:55:12am

re: #242 Obdicut

Why do you want to zone it out of town, exactly?

Because you disapprove of consenting adults going into a building to have sex?

You realize they don't have the blinds open, right?

Spoil-sports.

256 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:55:15am

re: #172 ralphieboy

I must admit that I was put off religion by my Catholic upbringing and then my encounters with the Campus Crusade for Christ goombahs I met at college. Took me a while to get over that basic disinclination.

It was Christianity that made my husband an atheist. I feel bad for him. He hasn't told me everything, but one night, after he went off on a particularly loud anti-religious rant, I said to him, "What did they do to you in parochial school?" He was dumbfounded by the remark. Stopped him cold. He never told me and I don't ask.

257 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:55:26am

re: #247 Cato the Elder

lol, silly

258 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:55:39am

cont'd

Definition: The scientific method is the four step process by which the scientific community collectively gathers and analyzes observations of the natural world in order to create tested, consistent, predictive and falsifiable models of natural phenomena. Further, this process demands that the final arbiter of any scientific dispute is observation.

Before getting to the four steps, it is important to note that nowhere in this definition is there any room for democracy, personal preference or being “even handed” with the other side. In a scientific debate, once sufficient data comes in, there is always a winner and a loser. Amongst professional scientists, these debates generally take two forms. Firstly, “does this really mean what you think it means?” Secondly, “did you really see what you think you saw?” Both debates are closed by more data and/or better analysis. Eventually, the evidence mounts and consensus is reached. An open debate implies that there is, as yet, insufficient data, incomplete analysis or both. The final word always goes to the physical evidence itself. There is no “second place.” This is as it should be. Good scientists do not say that the universe is some way that it isn’t, to please anyone

The four steps:

1. An interesting phenomenon is observed and described.
2. A hypothesis is formed to explain the phenomenon. A hypothesis usually takes the form of positing: a new or refined picture of some situation, a causal relationship or a mathematical description. It is an “educated guess.” It is patently not a theory.
3. If the hypothesis actually reflects what is going on, it will not contradict other observed phenomena and the existence of new phenomena will be predicted as consequences of the hypothesis. These consequences are identified and searched for. In this step, the new predictions will be the subject of experiment. If the universe does not comply with the prediction then, the hypothesis can not be the correct explanation.
For example, if your hypothesis is that the Earth is round, it is implied that one could go west from England, go all the way around the world, and eventually come back to England from the east. The experiment would be to get on a ship or a plane and try it. If you fall off the edge, then the hypothesis was wrong. This is what we mean by falsifiable.

4. Evidence mounts. Experiments and analyses are done by multiple independent observers. If the predictions of the hypothesis keep coming true and the hypothesis continues to be consistent with observed phenomena, it starts to become accepted by consensus as a correct model of the physical world. If new evidence comes in, that challenges the model, the model is either refined to incorporate the new evidence, and thus, once again, be consistent with known observation, or the model is completely rejected and a new hypothesis must be started back at step one. The latest, refined version of the model, which is consistent with all tested predictions and available observations, is called a theory. Theory does not mean here what it does in everyday use.

259 soap_man  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:55:55am

re: #218 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Thanks. I've seen clips and pictures (never watched) and this dude never dropped a pound.

Actually, one of the characters on the show (I forget who) made that same joke to him in the first or second season. He responded with "No way dude, I've totally dropped a belt size."

260 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:56:10am

re: #242 Obdicut

Why do you want to zone it out of town, exactly?

Because you disapprove of consenting adults going into a building to have sex?

You realize they don't have the blinds open, right?

i'm with you. imho this is waaay different than a strip club. you can't just walk in and see boobies.

261 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:56:15am

re: #253 Alouette

"Rita from Detroit" was a member of the NOI who used to phone in to Rush. She told him that she was going to be beamed up in Farrakhan's mothership. Really crazy stuff. Rush even had a song he played just for her.

No, that was not the woman.

262 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:56:15am

conclusion

Once something has been established as theory in the scientific sense, it is as true as the entire scientific community can tell, to a standard far more strict, than any court of law. The whole point of the independent observers doing independent trials is to remove human error and bias from the process. If 1,000 people show that something happened in 1,000 different ways, what are the odds that all the 1,000 observers were biased and that all of the 1,000 experiments were flawed? Some theories, once established, go for centuries without needing to be refined. By that point, the evidence literally comprises millions of observations and man-years of work. Refining does not mean throwing out either. For instance Newton’s theory of gravity was refined by Einstein’s theory of gravity. However, Einstein’s theory contains Newton’s theory, and after almost 400 years, Newton’s math is still all that one needs to put a satellite into orbit or a man on the moon. As another example, many think that the Earth is round, means that the Earth is a sphere. For many problems, this is a perfectly acceptable model. In reality, spheres don’t have mountains or valleys, but the Earth’s shape is still round, if not a perfect sphere. “The Earth is round” is an example of a valid scientific theory.

One of the most hurtful things that can be said to a scientist is to try to dismiss a theory in the scientific sense of the word as “only a theory” in the common sense of the word. This statement not only demonstrates that the speaker has no understanding of how science works, let alone the scientific point they are about to get wrong, but implies that all those years of observation, careful work and painstaking analysis by diligent people meant nothing. It is as obnoxious as saying to a rabbi that “the Torah is just a story”.

263 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:56:52am

re: #244 keloyd

I know that word only from playing Civilization. Where's my Nerd Badge?

I've lost every game (100's) at Civ4 "Monarch" level.

264 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:56:52am

re: #261 MandyManners

No, that was not the woman.

I think they came to take Rita away, haha.

265 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:56:53am

re: #254 LudwigVanQuixote

I'd just like to note that a friend of mine would disagree with this part:

For instance, the notion that one should treat animals compassionately has nothing to do with the definition of science, but has everything to do with ethics.

Since he thinks you can derive ethical behavior from thermodynamics. It's a bit of a stretch, to me.

But very nice post.

266 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:57:11am

re: #231 MandyManners

Have you ever checked out sites relating to the "Black Diaspora"? One in particular that I'm thinking about is run by a woman.

I have not. It's interesting you bring it up though, given that there is a place of business in the South of Market neighborhood of San Francisco with a banner outside that reads "African Diaspora." It appears to be a museum/PR place.

I hope I am wrong, but sometimes I get the impression that African-Americans are trying to equate their 'troubles' with that of the Jews. I have encountered numerous blacks here in the Bay Area who are mildly to rabidly anti-semitic in addition to being anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian terrorist, and generally anti-white. That's a mouthful but there you go.

267 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:57:47am

re: #260 Aceofwhat?

I'm actually kinda against 'zoning-discrimination' vs strip clubs (and the soon to be extinct adult video stores) too. It seems to me to be very anti-civil-rightsie.

268 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:57:50am

re: #253 Alouette

African Diasporal Enterprises.

269 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:58:08am

re: #248 The Yankee

Here is an excerpt..

Big church

right, because in the bible it says you shouldn't...uhh...hold on...uhh...i'll get back to you

270 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:58:21am

re: #244 keloyd

I know that word only from playing Civilization. Where's my Nerd Badge?

Alpha Centauri was better than any Civ game in almost every way.

271 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:58:23am

re: #268 MandyManners

African Diasporal Enterprises.

Yes, I kept the link but, I won't post it here. (I got all kinds of links to all knids of stuff.)

272 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:58:44am

re: #176 sattv4u2

Ha ,,, we still run a show (tape playout to satellite) from here every Sunday night
"The Universe Of Yahweh"

I shit you not ,, been doing it for years (even though he died about 6 years ago)

Really? Like a film?

They were pretty hot in Miami. Liked to kill white folks. Didn't matter who. They targeted taxi drivers because they were an easy mark, always there, particularly late at night when it was quiet. But the odd thing, is that Yahweh himself was released from jail, I think acquitted of murders. Did he ultimately die in prison? I thought they put him back or maybe deported him?

273 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:58:45am

re: #256 marjoriemoon

It was Christianity that made my husband an atheist. I feel bad for him. He hasn't told me everything, but one night, after he went off on a particularly loud anti-religious rant, I said to him, "What did they do to you in parochial school?" He was dumbfounded by the remark. Stopped him cold. He never told me and I don't ask.

that is so sad. i'm sorry.

274 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:58:46am

re: #266 eclectic infidel

The Museum of the African Diaspora is a serious museum with good scholarship and NOT related to any anti-semitic crap. Please don't smear it with that.

You're getting a little broad in the brush you're painting blacks with.

275 drcordell  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:58:50am

re: #266 eclectic infidel

I have encountered numerous blacks here in the Bay Area who are mildly to rabidly anti-semitic in addition to being anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian terrorist, and generally anti-white. That's a mouthful but there you go.

Just as I've encountered plenty of whites who are anti-Israel and generally anti-black. What exactly is your point?

276 Gus  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 11:59:28am

Well, I better get back to work and my financial crisis.

Later.

277 drcordell  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:00:09pm

re: #267 windsagio

I'm actually kinda against 'zoning-discrimination' vs strip clubs (and the soon to be extinct adult video stores) too. It seems to me to be very anti-civil-rightsie.

You can't legislate morality. Even if you don't condone what a business is selling, why not enjoy the tax revenues for your community. Forcing them out of town isn't going to rid the world of strip clubs.

278 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:00:14pm

re: #276 Gus 802

THat sounds ugly >>

Good luck!

279 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:00:26pm

re: #270 windsagio

Alpha Centauri was better than any Civ game in almost every way.

Matter of taste. I always disable the "Space Race" win.

280 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:00:26pm

re: #266 eclectic infidel

re: #274 Obdicut

Glad to hear it isn't related to hatred. I'll check it out in the future then.

281 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:00:28pm

Repent Amarillo reminds me of a real life Landover Baptist Church.

282 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:00:45pm

re: #266 eclectic infidel

Here is the Museum of the African Diaspora:

[Link: www.moadsf.org...]

283 keloyd  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:00:51pm

re: #242 Obdicut

Why do you want to zone it out of town, exactly?
Because you disapprove of consenting adults going into a building to have sex?
You realize they don't have the blinds open, right?

If adults carry on like that in their homes, with a fishbowl full of car keys by the front door, that's fine with me. If it's in commercial property, or is just an 'adult' book store, or if it is a hog fat rendering factory, it is a drag on property values. It is also self-evident that some businesses are tawdry. Not dangerous, not illegal, just in poor taste. Zoning against that element is within the realm of local govt, whether or not we agree on where the line goes. Each community should set its own boundaries. Somewhere I used to live, not sure now, tried to zone away a propsed Hooters. There I sided with Hooters. It's ok, very ok, God bless them they're really wonderfully ok.

284 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:00:54pm

re: #267 windsagio

I'm actually kinda against 'zoning-discrimination' vs strip clubs (and the soon to be extinct adult video stores) too. It seems to me to be very anti-civil-rightsie.

that's fine. i only meant to say that one could at least posit some items about strip clubs (serve alcohol late...very loud...boobies on display) that i can wrap my mind around.

a private building where private folks do private things? gimme a break.

285 Neutral President  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:01:03pm

re: #265 Obdicut

I'd just like to note that a friend of mine would disagree with this part:

Since he thinks you can derive ethical behavior from thermodynamics. It's a bit of a stretch, to me.

But very nice post.

Ethics derived from thermodynamics? Didn't Boba Fett say that in one of the SW-EU books? "Evil is intelligence in the service of entropy" or something to that effect?

286 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:01:10pm

re: #271 MandyManners

Cheryl D. Uzamere and Micheal Bloomberg and Thomas A. Klonick

287 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:01:37pm

re: #233 eclectic infidel

Well it's a shame that you're going to let a bunch of kooks dictate how you spend your vacations.. The U.S. is a big place and these extremists do not dominate here. You're going to tell me that you'll forgo Cape Cod in the winter, Colorado Springs during a summer's thunder/lightning storm, and Vegas in the month of November? Say it isn't so.

Well OK, I'll reconsider. But with this disgustingly cold winter weather I'm gonna plan to do my winter holidays in Hawaii from now on...Kill Haole Day notwithstanding!

288 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:01:53pm

re: #277 drcordell

Well in fairness, you can. People do it all the time.

Whats interesting is that Its really hard for the City of John Day in OR to keep the Aryan Nation out

[Link: www.statesmanjournal.com...]

289 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:02:11pm
re: #257 windsagio

lol, silly

My favorite passage containing the word "quadrireme":

And it seemed to me that I heard the voice of that Egyptian highpriest raised in a tone of like haughtiness and like pride. I heard his words and their meaning was revealed to me. --Why will you jews not accept our culture, our religion and our language? You are a tribe of nomad herdsmen: we are a mighty people. You have no cities nor no wealth: our cities are hives of humanity and our galleys, trireme and quadrireme, laden with all manner merchandise furrow the waters of the known globe. You have but emerged from primitive conditions: we have a literature, a priesthood, an agelong history and a polity.

--James Joyce, Ulysses

290 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:02:21pm

re: #281 Mad Al-Jaffee

Repent Amarillo reminds me of a real life Landover Baptist Church.

best part of the site is the letters they get from people, some of whom are offended by the over-the-top parody, and others who do not seem to get that it is an over-the-top parody

291 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:02:24pm

re: #288 windsagio

Oops double linked. Sorry >>

292 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:02:46pm

So why did I bring all of that:

Simply put we read things again and agin in the blogs that can be quickly addressed by a basic application of the scientific method.

If you for instance believe that something does not exist, then if you look out your window and see one, your hypothesis is wrong. You are done.

If you think that Obama is a communist and then it turns out that he did not meet the definition of a communist, you are done.

If you think that he was not born here, but you find birth announcements and State paperwork and affidavits and the testimony of non family members that he was, you are done.


The issue here is that the real world is not something that penetrates. No fact that does not fit will be considered.

That has a clinical name. It is called schizophrenia.

293 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:02:51pm

re: #283 keloyd

It is not self-evident that places are tawdry. It is self-evident to you. Not to me. I don't give a shit, seriously. I could care less.

The property value argument can be used to justify the ostracism of any disliked group, so that's a shitty one to use, also.

294 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:02:53pm

re: #281 Mad Al-Jaffee

Repent Amarillo reminds me of a real life Landover Baptist Church.

Very much. I've run into groups that carry the military metaphor much farther, into the realm of the militias.

295 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:02:58pm

re: #253 Alouette

I just sent you an e-mail with the link.

296 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:03:11pm

re: #195 SpaceJesus

where the hell are my royalties?

also, lol texas

[Link: www.jesuschristislordtravelcenter.com...]

hehe We have a Jesus Saves Auto Sales up the street, but I can't find them online.

I was behind a truck a couple months ago. It was a landscaping company. They're logo said, "Jesus Landscaping - Let us bring life back to your garden."

Now THAT'S comedy!

297 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:03:21pm

re: #275 drcordell

It was not my intent to to smear the African Diaspora and on reflection, I should have made the post without it included. That said, I was speaking directly from personal experience as a pro-Israel activist - point being that I have personally noticed and uptake in anti-Israel/anti-Jewish sentiment from blacks in the cities of San Francisco, and Oakland. Obviously, I've met folk who do not feel this way at all, but in the end, I was just making an observation.

298 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:03:37pm

re: #272 marjoriemoon

Really? Like a film?

They were pretty hot in Miami. Liked to kill white folks. Didn't matter who. They targeted taxi drivers because they were an easy mark, always there, particularly late at night when it was quiet. But the odd thing, is that Yahweh himself was released from jail, I think acquitted of murders. Did he ultimately die in prison? I thought they put him back or maybe deported him?

It's a 30 minute TV show. The extol how wonderful a man he was and that they are the 'real" Israelites. Little kids praising him, lots of praying and platitudes AND how he was "persecuted" by the USA gov't

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Yahweh ben Yahweh died May 7, 2007 from prostate cancer.

299 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:03:37pm

re: #279 Decatur Deb

+ for having actually Played AC :p

300 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:04:05pm

re: #290 ralphieboy

best part of the site is the letters they get from people, some of whom are offended by the over-the-top parody, and others who do not seem to get that it is an over-the-top parody

My very open-minded fundamentalist Christian friend loves their website. He also loves South Park, The Simpsons and The Onion.

301 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:04:08pm

re: #265 Obdicut

[...] he thinks you can derive ethical behavior from thermodynamics.

Now that I'd like to see. Does he have equations?

302 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:04:08pm

re: #242 Obdicut

Why do you want to zone it out of town, exactly?

Because you disapprove of consenting adults going into a building to have sex?

You realize they don't have the blinds open, right?

How about a couple running an adult website from their own home in your upscale neighborhood? No harm no foul?

303 hartkid13  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:04:29pm

As a lifelong Texan and Christian, I'm absolutely sickened by these people. This is the worst form of Christianity.

304 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:04:32pm

re: #265 Obdicut

I'd just like to note that a friend of mine would disagree with this part:

Since he thinks you can derive ethical behavior from thermodynamics. It's a bit of a stretch, to me.

But very nice post.

someday you're going to have to pass that ethical behavior from thermodynamics bit along...sounds like fun.

305 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:04:54pm

re: #273 Aceofwhat?

that is so sad. i'm sorry.

I don't think it's AWFUL whatever it is... At least I hope not. He doesn't seem to have any really bizarre hangups or proclivities in all these years I've known him, but whatever it was, it turned him from God. I see that a lot.

306 drcordell  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:05:29pm

re: #288 windsagio

Well in fairness, you can. People do it all the time.

Whats interesting is that Its really hard for the City of John Day in OR to keep the Aryan Nation out

[Link: www.statesmanjournal.com...]

Right. You can attempt to legislate morality, but it will inevitably fail. Every single time.

307 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:06:22pm

re: #283 keloyd

I always think the 'it drags property values down!' is a really terrible argument.

It always speaks to me of either
a) people who intend to flip the house as quickly as possible.
b) people that don't want to let any of those damn poor people (many of whom are minorities!) into their neighborhood.

*I'm not saying you're either of those, but thats the association in my head.

308 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:06:49pm

re: #297 eclectic infidel

There definitely is a lot of anti-semetism in the black community, fostered and propagated by Farrakhan and many others. It's a problem that black and Jewish leaders need to work on, and individual blacks need to address as well.

However, I also know elderly Jewish people-- otherwise lovely-- who are casually racists about blacks, so I'm really unsure what you're trying to prove by relating your anecdotes. I'm sorry you had to encounter such ugly things, but when you say this:

I get the impression that African-Americans are trying to equate their 'troubles' with that of the Jews.

You are not speaking of those you met, but speaking of all African-Americans. And that is unwise, to say the least.

309 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:07:17pm

re: #306 drcordell

Well, ask the guy who had to move his new strip club out of the neighborhood :p

310 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:07:18pm

re: #295 MandyManners

I just sent you an e-mail with the link.

Bwahaha! Reminds me of this.

311 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:08:19pm

re: #293 Obdicut

It is not self-evident that places are tawdry. It is self-evident to you. Not to me. I don't give a shit, seriously. I could care less.

The property value argument can be used to justify the ostracism of any disliked group, so that's a shitty one to use, also.

agree. further, it goes back to our other discussion (were you there?) about bullying laws and enumeration.

zoning to limit actual measurable behavior (i.e. no serving alcohol past 11pm in this neighborhood) is logical. zoning away only those people you dislike is discriminatory and repugnant.

312 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:08:31pm

re: #306 drcordell

Right. You can attempt to legislate morality, but it will inevitably fail. Every single time.

Really... then how come we have laws against murder? Oh, I know, it doesn't work, we still have murder. So, let's get rid of the laws against murder. Oh, can't do that or else we wouldn't have anything punitive to charge people with if they commit murder. So, let's legislate morality.

313 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:08:36pm

re: #308 Obdicut

its funny, it feels racist to say that all blacks are racist against the jews.


That's a brain-twister for you.

314 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:08:49pm

re: #310 Alouette

Bwahaha! Reminds me of this.

[Video]

Aren't you 'possed to be cleaning !?!?!

//

315 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:08:56pm

re: #265 Obdicut

I'd just like to note that a friend of mine would disagree with this part:

Since he thinks you can derive ethical behavior from thermodynamics. It's a bit of a stretch, to me.

But very nice post.

Thanks for the compliment!

As to the ethics of Thermodynamics, since thermo is basically a very elaborate mathematical way to say that everything eventually and always breaks down and dies, I have a hard time seeing how any system other than abject nihilism could come of it.

Ahhh screw it, I'll just say what first came to mind, the idea of invoking ethical systems from physical theories is as pleasant to me as hammering a nail into my penis.

316 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:09:00pm

re: #292 LudwigVanQuixote

The issue here is that the real world is not something that penetrates. No fact that does not fit will be considered.

That has a clinical name. It is called schizophrenia.

Again, my friend, you're too hard on your fellow humans.

Sometimes denial is a necessary defense against schizophrenia. A way to avoid the black abyss of despair. Which will kill you faster than anything but a bullet or a speeding train.

317 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:09:13pm

re: #312 Walter L. Newton

Really... then how come we have laws against murder? Oh, I know, it doesn't work, we still have murder. So, let's get rid of the laws against murder. Oh, can't do that or else we wouldn't have anything punitive to charge people with if they commit murder. So, let's legislate morality.

ouch!

318 Locker  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:09:31pm

Back with 2 spicy breasts and 2 biscuits. I firmly believe that nothing can go so wrong in a day that can't be repaired by a quick lunchtime trip to Popeyes.

319 drcordell  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:09:42pm

re: #297 eclectic infidel

It was not my intent to to smear the African Diaspora and on reflection, I should have made the post without it included. That said, I was speaking directly from personal experience as a pro-Israel activist - point being that I have personally noticed and uptake in anti-Israel/anti-Jewish sentiment from blacks in the cities of San Francisco, and Oakland. Obviously, I've met folk who do not feel this way at all, but in the end, I was just making an observation.

In the future, you might refrain from drawing inferences about entire groups of people based on isolated experiences. If I were to publicly expound about a personal experience that many Jews I encounter in NYC are bankers, I can't imagine that it would be well received.

320 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:10:00pm

re: #312 Walter L. Newton

Really... then how come we have laws against murder? Oh, I know, it doesn't work, we still have murder. So, let's get rid of the laws against murder. Oh, can't do that or else we wouldn't have anything punitive to charge people with if they commit murder. So, let's legislate morality.


We are talking about consensual acts between adults, not murder, rape or child abuse.

321 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:10:10pm

re: #312 Walter L. Newton

In fairness you know what he was trying to say :p

/he was still mistaken, but still.

322 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:10:11pm

re: #305 marjoriemoon

I don't think it's AWFUL whatever it is... At least I hope not. He doesn't seem to have any really bizarre hangups or proclivities in all these years I've known him, but whatever it was, it turned him from God. I see that a lot.

can you pass him some CS Lewis? Or is he resistant to that as well?

323 drcordell  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:10:25pm

re: #312 Walter L. Newton

Really... then how come we have laws against murder? Oh, I know, it doesn't work, we still have murder. So, let's get rid of the laws against murder. Oh, can't do that or else we wouldn't have anything punitive to charge people with if they commit murder. So, let's legislate morality.

So tell me Walter, how effective is that legislation? Were there zero people murdered this year because killing is illegal?

324 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:11:06pm

WHAT do you all have against Helen Thomas? Don't pick on the elderly!

325 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:11:39pm

re: #311 Aceofwhat?

Yeah. If they want to pass a law saying that nobody can take their pants off before they get in the door, that's fine.

326 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:11:48pm

re: #323 drcordell

So tell me Walter, how effective is that legislation? Were there zero people murdered this year because killing is illegal?

wow ,, you got him!!

(hmm , wonder if you think MORE people would have been killed if murder wasn't illegal though!!)

327 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:12:00pm

re: #316 Cato the Elder

Again, my friend, you're too hard on your fellow humans.

Sometimes denial is a necessary defense against schizophrenia. A way to avoid the black abyss of despair. Which will kill you faster than anything but a bullet or a speeding train.

Very philosophical and poetic.

Also not the context I was referring to. We are not talking about the ways that we deal with searching our souls or avoiding judgement of others.
We are talking about the truths of the physical world which are easily verified and which should in of themselves not be matters of emotion.

If you are in denial about a train rushing towards you when standing on tracks, that is will kill you.

328 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:12:02pm

re: #6 marjoriemoon

There's a link? None of the breast cancer survivors I know had an abortion. Granted, that's about a dozen women. I also volunteered for Susan G. Komen for 5 years and never heard of such a thing.

There's an element that desperately wants there to be a link.

329 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:12:04pm

re: #320 ralphieboy

We are talking about consensual acts between adults, not murder, rape or child abuse.

Dr. Cordell said "Right. You can attempt to legislate morality, but it will inevitably fail. Every single time." Broad brush, you can legislate morality, your argument is what areas of morality should be legislated. Sex, I don't care what you do with another adult.

330 Bagua  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:12:13pm

Repost from the last thread as this is an important health issue.


re: #1026 Guanxi88


They're addressing American moist snuff and Swedish snus - oral tobacco. The article abstracts I have provided deal with nasal use.

They are specifically including snuff tobacco. There is also a more recent study specifically linking nasal use with squamous cell carcinoma, I would have to look for the link.

The main reason nasal use would likely have a lower rate of cancer is not the delivery via the nose instead of the mouth. The reason is the dose.

One can not, for example, say that smoking one pack of cigarettes a day will cause a certain individual to get cancer. It depends on their genetic makeup. A person with strong tumour suppressing genes might escape cancer at that dose, but succumb at some unknown, larger dose. A person with weak tumour suppressing genes may not smoke at all, but get their cancer from second hand smoke which would be harmless to the first person with the better genes.

This is also why chew is worse than snuff, people tend to snuff small amounts of tobacco, but they chew much larger amounts. But again, depending on your genes if you have weak tumour suppressing genes, the snuff could be just enough to give you cancer.

331 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:12:17pm

re: #324 marjoriemoon

WHAT do you all have against Helen Thomas? Don't pick on the elderly!

There's 'elderly", then there's Helen!!
/

332 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:12:25pm

re: #322 Aceofwhat?

can you pass him some CS Lewis? Or is he resistant to that as well?

He's an avid reader, sci-fi alternative history stuff. CS Lewis was a heathen converted to God yes?

I'm Jewish so I'm working another angle ;)

333 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:12:34pm

I lived in Amarillo a million years ago (mid to late 80s). It wasn't filled with a bunch of wild-eyed Fred Phelps types, but it was definitely gripped with the Satanic Panic that was popular at the time. Symptoms of Satanic cult activity parents were told by the local police to watch for included wearing black socks or listening to heavy metal.

It was the kind of place where the "right" kind of person could get probation for intentionally killing the "wrong" kind of person in a gang fight.

334 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:12:38pm

re: #224 Decatur Deb

I am passionately opposed to swingers' clubs because of their close association with disco and doubleknit lesiure suits.

Careful! Charles has probably got the number he's sportin' in this clip still hanging in a closet somewhere. Hell, maybe he's still got a Nehru jacket, too.

335 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:12:45pm

re: #326 sattv4u2

This is fun!

what does 'effective' or 'ineffective' mean?

How many murders does the law have to stop before its effective?

336 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:12:52pm

re: #315 LudwigVanQuixote

Thanks for the compliment!

As to the ethics of Thermodynamics, since thermo is basically a very elaborate mathematical way to say that everything eventually and always breaks down and dies, I have a hard time seeing how any system other than abject nihilism could come of it.

Ahhh screw it, I'll just say what first came to mind, the idea of invoking ethical systems from physical theories is as pleasant to me as hammering a nail into my penis.

...but it seemed like such a good idea at the time//

337 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:12:53pm

re: #318 Locker

Back with 2 spicy breasts and 2 biscuits. I firmly believe that nothing can go so wrong in a day that can't be repaired by a quick lunchtime trip to Popeyes.

Spicy BREASTS?! Sinner!!!!

/

338 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:13:14pm

re: #323 drcordell

So tell me Walter, how effective is that legislation? Were there zero people murdered this year because killing is illegal?

were there less murdered than would have otherwise been if it were not legal?

339 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:13:23pm

re: #323 drcordell

So tell me Walter, how effective is that legislation? Were there zero people murdered this year because killing is illegal?

You didn't read my full comment, I already anticipated your rebuttal and your answer is in my original comment to you.

340 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:14:11pm

re: #322 Aceofwhat?

C.S. Lewis is really not that convincing. Most of his arguments are simply based on assumption and revelation. A lot of basic philosophy classes in college use him as an example of flawed arguments.

341 keloyd  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:14:26pm

re: #307 windsagio

I always think the 'it drags property values down!' is a really terrible argument.

It always speaks to me of either
a) people who intend to flip the house as quickly as possible.
b) people that don't want to let any of those damn poor people (many of whom are minorities!) into their neighborhood.

*I'm not saying you're either of those, but thats the association in my head.

I should clarify that I'm not against The Bing or swinger clubs myself. I enthusiastically and regularly support the PG versions like Hooters and Twin Peaks. We likely agree that the property values argument is not foremost in the mind of the typical church-going city councilman voting down these business.

I support the right of local government to self-determine local community standards. Discrimination based on ethnicity, race, age, etc. is illegal. Discrimination of other kinds, whether it is snobbery or a certain traditionalism wrt sex based on majority rule - that is protected speech.

342 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:14:42pm

re: #335 windsagio

This is fun!

what does 'effective' or 'ineffective' mean?

How many murders does the law have to stop before its effective?

No ,,it's not fun. It was a ridiculous rhetorical question

343 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:15:03pm

re: #325 Obdicut

Yeah. If they want to pass a law saying that nobody can take their pants off before they get in the door, that's fine.

exactly. and i sympathize with antipathy towards late-night bars in residential neighborhoods. again, a specific behavior (dangerous driving and behavior hear homes) that can be specifically targeted without making distinctions between person A and person B.

344 cliffster  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:15:04pm

re: #292 LudwigVanQuixote

Hmm, let's think about this. In an experiment, you take the number of observable things, call it The World of the experiment, and limit it drastically so that you can isolate causes. In the real world, the number of observable things is, well, the entire world. So even though people make observations in the hopelessly complex world at large, you're still calling them schizophrenic if they think something you consider illogical. Add this to the ease with which you label people as "vile racists" or "complete idiots" or "the embodiment of evil". In other words, drawing ridiculous conclusions. Very unscientific.

345 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:15:22pm
346 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:15:23pm

re: #340 Obdicut

C.S. Lewis is really not that convincing. Most of his arguments are simply based on assumption and revelation. A lot of basic philosophy classes in college use him as an example of flawed arguments.

Of course he's flawed, he's arguing for the existence of g-d.

347 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:15:25pm

re: #326 sattv4u2

wow ,, you got him!!

(hmm , wonder if you think MORE people would have been killed if murder wasn't illegal though!!)

By a strange quirk, my family would up living for a year or so outside a system of law. A coup, followed by martial law, put all US Army civilians in Korea in that place. The JAG lawyers joked that if we ever wanted to kill someone.....

348 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:15:26pm

re: #315 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah. It just seems... even if you could do it, we'd get the equations wrong. We can see the outputs, at any rate-- our actual behavior towards each other-- so basing it off of actual behavior seems a lot simpler and wiser to me.

However, he's a very ethical, very wonderful man, and so it works for him.

349 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:15:33pm

Anyways.

This "Making murder illegal" thing is arguably not about morality anyways.

Its about promoting public safety, and the stability of society.

Murder would be bad for us with no moral law at all :P

350 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:15:43pm

re: #327 LudwigVanQuixote

Very philosophical and poetic.

Also not the context I was referring to. We are not talking about the ways that we deal with searching our souls or avoiding judgement of others.
We are talking about the truths of the physical world which are easily verified and which should in of themselves not be matters of emotion.

If you are in denial about a train rushing towards you when standing on tracks, that is will kill you.

If the truth of the physical world is that what we all do and how we all live is going to kill us or our children, can't you understand how some people would be unable to face that fact and retreat into denial?

I'm just asking for you to apply your psychological acuity to the fact of denial and have a little sympathy for people who can't face doomsday and their own potential role in it. Pity the poor naked apes.

351 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:15:49pm

re: #139 Walter L. Newton

And Idioma jumps into the conversation, painting with the broad brush again. get ready for straw men, hyperbole and all sorts of deflections and idiocy in attempts to paint all religion as a worthless endeavor.

Get ready, Idioma is here.

Walter, you are so sensitive!

Religion has had thousands of years to make it's case. If the things that I say are really such an awful threat what does that say about the strength of their argument?

352 cliffster  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:16:09pm

re: #333 negativ

I lived in Amarillo a million years ago (mid to late 80s). It wasn't filled with a bunch of wild-eyed Fred Phelps types, but it was definitely gripped with the Satanic Panic that was popular at the time. Symptoms of Satanic cult activity parents were told by the local police to watch for included wearing black socks or listening to heavy metal.

It was the kind of place where the "right" kind of person could get probation for intentionally killing the "wrong" kind of person in a gang fight.

I lived in Amarillo when I was a wee one, and been back up to them parts a few times. It is truly the asshole of the universe

353 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:16:13pm

re: #340 Obdicut

C.S. Lewis is really not that convincing. Most of his arguments are simply based on assumption and revelation. A lot of basic philosophy classes in college use him as an example of flawed arguments.

He's not universally effective, but he's eminently readable and doesn't come on too strong in many of his books.

354 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:16:15pm

re: #342 sattv4u2

Spoilsport :P

this whole discussion is rhetorical ;)

355 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:16:31pm

re: #155 Walter L. Newton

In the past Idioma has treating ALL religion as evil personified.

Those are your words, not mine. Either find a quote or shut your drama-queen mouth.

356 Yashmak  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:16:31pm

Sounds like these folks should have a mixer with the Westboro Baptist folks. They could compare the sizes of their moral superiority.

357 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:16:51pm

re: #351 idioma

Careful! Walter's temper is a machine-gun with a hairtrigger!

358 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:17:15pm

re: #334 The Sanity Inspector

Careful! Charles has probably got the number he's sportin' in this clip still hanging in a closet somewhere. Hell, maybe he's still got a Nehru jacket, too.

yikes

359 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:17:19pm

re: #334 The Sanity Inspector

Careful! Charles has probably got the number he's sportin' in this clip still hanging in a closet somewhere. Hell, maybe he's still got a Nehru jacket, too.

I don't know if I can come here any more.

360 drcordell  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:17:22pm

re: #339 Walter L. Newton

You didn't read my full comment, I already anticipated your rebuttal and your answer is in my original comment to you.

I read it. My original point stands. You can attempt to legislate morality. But inevitably it will fail. Laws against murder don't stop all murders. Laws against drugs don't stop drug use. Laws against sexual acts don't stop those acts from being performed.

361 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:17:25pm

re: #353 Aceofwhat?

He's a pleasure to read, that's for sure. And his goodness comes across. It's simply unlikely to convince an atheist, and even more unlikely to address the concerns of someone who has actually suffered at the hands of a church.

362 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:17:29pm

re: #355 idioma

he's kind of right. I remember the thread pretty well. You were pretty much out of hand hatin'.

363 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:17:53pm

re: #355 idioma

Those are your words, not mine. Either find a quote or shut your drama-queen mouth.

did you answer my question?

364 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:18:25pm

re: #357 windsagio

Careful! Walter's temper is a machine-gun with a hairtrigger!

Yeah, he's going to gum me to death. Words are not the worst thing I've had to deal with in my life.

365 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:19:06pm

re: #364 idioma

man I'd take that zinger back if I could >> You seem determined to be a jerk :p

366 ShaunP  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:19:14pm

Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere, but apparently the American Family Association is calling for the death of the killer whale that killed its trainer last week. No joke:

[Link: www.afa.net...]

Bible ignored, trainer dies

...If the counsel of the Judeo-Christian tradition had been followed, Tillikum would have been put out of everyone's misery back in 1991 and would not have had the opportunity to claim two more human lives.

Says the ancient civil code of Israel, "When an ox gores a man or woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten, but the owner shall not be liable." (Exodus 21:28)

So, your animal kills somebody, your moral responsibility is to put that animal to death. You have no moral culpability in the death, because you didn't know the animal was going to go postal on somebody.

But, the Scripture soberly warns, if one of your animals kills a second time because you didn't kill it after it claimed its first human victim, this time you die right along with your animal. To use the example from Exodus, if your ox kills a second time, "the ox shall be stoned, and its owner also shall be put to death." (Exodus 21:29)...

367 Locker  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:19:17pm

re: #360 drcordell

I read it. My original point stands. You can attempt to legislate morality. But inevitably it will fail. Laws against murder don't stop all murders. Laws against drugs don't stop drug use. Laws against sexual acts don't stop those acts from being performed.

Well, it depends on the goal of the legislation. It sure doesn't seem like we legislate to prevent in this country but legislate, instead, to punish. So I'm not sure folks even expect a law to stop behavior, they just want a way to punish you. Penance model.

368 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:19:30pm

re: #351 idioma

Walter, you are so sensitive!

Religion has had thousands of years to make it's case. If the things that I say are really such an awful threat what does that say about the strength of their argument?

Windsagio, have you seen some of the "arguments" that Idioma has put forth here? I would suggest that you search for comments from Idioma and then decide if she/he deserves a up ding.

Even myself, as an atheist, wouldn't make the kind of all encompassing comments that she has made against Christians, jews and Muslims.

Careful what you are agreeing with.

369 HappyWarrior  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:19:32pm

re: #333 negativ

I lived in Amarillo a million years ago (mid to late 80s). It wasn't filled with a bunch of wild-eyed Fred Phelps types, but it was definitely gripped with the Satanic Panic that was popular at the time. Symptoms of Satanic cult activity parents were told by the local police to watch for included wearing black socks or listening to heavy metal.

It was the kind of place where the "right" kind of person could get probation for intentionally killing the "wrong" kind of person in a gang fight.

Fascinating stuff.

370 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:20:05pm

re: #361 Obdicut

He's a pleasure to read, that's for sure. And his goodness comes across. It's simply unlikely to convince an atheist, and even more unlikely to address the concerns of someone who has actually suffered at the hands of a church.

i know some who have been swayed and some who have not...and the readability is definitely something i'm a sucker for, on any subject.

371 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:20:22pm

re: #368 Walter L. Newton

go down a bit further, I agree with you 100%. I just like to josh you on your temper :p

372 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:20:25pm

re: #364 idioma

Yeah, he's going to gum me to death. Words are not the worst thing I've had to deal with in my life.

answer my question

373 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:20:25pm

re: #366 ShaunP

Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere, but apparently the American Family Association is calling for the death of the killer whale that killed its trainer last week. No joke:

[Link: www.afa.net...]

Bible ignored, trainer dies

Where are orca whales mentioned in the bible?

374 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:20:27pm

re: #266 eclectic infidel

I have not. It's interesting you bring it up though, given that there is a place of business in the South of Market neighborhood of San Francisco with a banner outside that reads "African Diaspora." It appears to be a museum/PR place.

I hope I am wrong, but sometimes I get the impression that African-Americans are trying to equate their 'troubles' with that of the Jews. I have encountered numerous blacks here in the Bay Area who are mildly to rabidly anti-semitic in addition to being anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian terrorist, and generally anti-white. That's a mouthful but there you go.

It is thought that one of the 12 tribes settled in Africa and there's Jews there now. Operation Solomon (named for Solomon's relationship with the African Queen Sheba) in the 1980's brought some 20,000 Jews to Israel and more keep coming. The Abayudaya are some, Beta Israel in Ethiopia are others. There's the Lemba, too. Our blood is in African, but they aren't Yahwehs....

A couple websites:
[Link: www.kulanu.org...]
[Link: www.nacoej.org...]

375 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:20:50pm

re: #331 sattv4u2

There's 'elderly", then there's Helen!!
/

Boooo!!! Hisssss!!!

376 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:20:51pm

re: #373 Alouette

Baseball is.

377 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:21:12pm

re: #360 drcordell

I read it. My original point stands. You can attempt to legislate morality. But inevitably it will fail. Laws against murder don't stop all murders. Laws against drugs don't stop drug use. Laws against sexual acts don't stop those acts from being performed.

So because something isn't 100% positive proof, it has 'failed"?!?!?

wow ,,,

Guess we should do away with marriage then. And driving laws (whats a few more car accidents) ,,, underage smoking (hey ,, that kid probably would have grown up and smoked anyway ,, why make him wait)?

ggeeezzz!!

378 drcordell  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:21:24pm

re: #367 Locker

Well, it depends on the goal of the legislation. It sure doesn't seem like we legislate to prevent in this country but legislate, instead, to punish. So I'm not sure folks even expect a law to stop behavior, they just want a way to punish you. Penance model.

I was under the impression that the point of the punishment itself was to act as a deterrent. You are discouraged from murdering someone because you know that if you do, you will end up in prison.

379 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:21:29pm

re: #77 MandyManners

No. Allah is a delusion from a mentally ill man in the Seventh Century.

My Iraqi Jewish friends, who address God as Allah when they pray in Judeo-Arabic would be surprised to hear that.

380 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:21:38pm

re: #376 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Baseball is.

In the Big Inning...

381 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:21:46pm

re: #365 windsagio

man I'd take that zinger back if I could >> You seem determined to be a jerk :p

Idioma is a troll, only pops in here when he/she sees an opportunity to be a complete bigot in regards to religion.

Don't feed it.

382 badger1970  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:21:47pm

re: #373 Alouette

There's Jonah but I doubt it was an Orca ;)

383 Areozol  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:21:54pm
5. Opening day of public schools to reach out to students.
6. Spring break events.

I don't get it. Oh, I forget the probably prefer homeschooling.

9. Other events that may arise that the ministry feels called to confront.

Like screenings of "Avatar"?

384 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:22:12pm

re: #366 ShaunP

Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere, but apparently the American Family Association is calling for the death of the killer whale that killed its trainer last week. No joke:

[Link: www.afa.net...]

Bible ignored, trainer dies

it's just me...but i don't think this verse covered what to do when your pet is an ORCA.

Not that i expect the AFA to be able to figure that out...

385 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:22:14pm

re: #381 Walter L. Newton

don't worry on my account Walter :D

386 drcordell  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:22:19pm

re: #373 Alouette

Where are orca whales mentioned in the bible?

You haven't read Genesis Chapter 6? Noah's Ark? Remember he put two of every animal in there.

387 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:22:22pm

re: #344 cliffster

Hmm, let's think about this. In an experiment, you take the number of observable things, call it The World of the experiment, and limit it drastically so that you can isolate causes. In the real world, the number of observable things is, well, the entire world. So even though people make observations in the hopelessly complex world at large, you're still calling them schizophrenic if they think something you consider illogical. Add this to the ease with which you label people as "vile racists" or "complete idiots" or "the embodiment of evil". In other words, drawing ridiculous conclusions. Very unscientific.

Well if that was actually how those conversations went you might have a point. Why not try it without twisting my words.. very dishonest.

388 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:22:46pm

re: #367 Locker

Well, it depends on the goal of the legislation. It sure doesn't seem like we legislate to prevent in this country but legislate, instead, to punish. So I'm not sure folks even expect a law to stop behavior, they just want a way to punish you. Penance model.


There are forms of morality we need to legislate, such as murder, rape and theft. But acts between consenting adults are another matter, we have no business wasting time and rewourhese acts very clearly fall under my definition of "the pursuit of happiness", this being a fundamental right of all humans.

389 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:23:10pm

re: #382 badger1970

There's Jonah but I doubt it was an Orca ;)

It says "big fish" anyway the fish did not kill Jonah

390 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:23:21pm

re: #344 cliffster

Hmm, let's think about this. In an experiment, you take the number of observable things, call it The World of the experiment, and limit it drastically so that you can isolate causes. In the real world, the number of observable things is, well, the entire world. So even though people make observations in the hopelessly complex world at large, you're still calling them schizophrenic if they think something you consider illogical. Add this to the ease with which you label people as "vile racists" or "complete idiots" or "the embodiment of evil". In other words, drawing ridiculous conclusions. Very unscientific.

I don't remember LVQ using the word schizophrenic. Where did you get that?

391 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:23:26pm

re: #101 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

OK, these assholes are really starting to piss me the fuck off. Who the fuck made them the fucking morality patrol?

I believe they prefer the title "Committee for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice".

392 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:23:37pm

re: #386 drcordell

You haven't read Genesis Chapter 6? Noah's Ark? Remember he put two of every animal in there.

Including dinosaurs?

/

393 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:23:53pm

re: #367 Locker

Well, it depends on the goal of the legislation. It sure doesn't seem like we legislate to prevent in this country but legislate, instead, to punish. So I'm not sure folks even expect a law to stop behavior, they just want a way to punish you. Penance model.

out of curiosity, what would murder-prevention legislation look like?

394 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:23:58pm

re: #388 ralphieboy

Again, murder rape and theft aren't about legislating morality

They're about public safety and the stability of society.

Legislating morality would be more like zoning strip clubs out of existance, or sodomy laws.

395 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:24:06pm

re: #308 Obdicut

You are not speaking of those you met, but speaking of all African-Americans. And that is unwise, to say the least.

I *meant* to limit my post to my personal encounters and it was sloppy and in poor judgment to write what I did.

So, an apology is in order: I humbly apologize to anyone who read the post and took offense. My intent was not to demonize an entire groups of people.

396 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:24:42pm

How nice, they link to Hal Lindsey.

397 Locker  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:24:47pm

re: #378 drcordell

I was under the impression that the point of the punishment itself was to act as a deterrent. You are discouraged from murdering someone because you know that if you do, you will end up in prison.

Well, personally I'd have to say that, while some people may make that type of claim (the deterrent factor) it doesn't seem genuine. In American culture from work to media to religion to politics I find the overwhelming focus is on who to blame for troubles, not how to fix the trouble in the first place. I don't think things like the death penalty (for example) deter a damn thing, I think they just make the victims families feel better through vengeance.

398 Slap  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:24:55pm

re: #296 marjoriemoon

Have a friend who often spoke of his carpenter buddy's bumpersticker with great amusement:

WWJC
What Would Jesus Charge?

399 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:25:04pm

re: #393 Aceofwhat?

Mind control helmets! (the sattelites are too easy to circumnavigate with tinfoil)

400 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:25:08pm

re: #310 Alouette

Bwahaha! Reminds me of this.

[Video]

Thanks for ths smile!

401 drcordell  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:25:09pm

re: #77 MandyManners

No. Allah is a delusion from a mentally ill man in the Seventh Century.

How is this disgusting hatred tolerated here?

402 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:25:35pm

re: #366 ShaunP

Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere, but apparently the American Family Association is calling for the death of the killer whale that killed its trainer last week. No joke:

[Link: www.afa.net...]

Bible ignored, trainer dies

IIRC, killer animals were tried and executed in Europe, up through the Middle Ages. Will Google.

403 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:25:35pm

re: #350 Cato the Elder

If the truth of the physical world is that what we all do and how we all live is going to kill us or our children, can't you understand how some people would be unable to face that fact and retreat into denial?

I'm just asking for you to apply your psychological acuity to the fact of denial and have a little sympathy for people who can't face doomsday and their own potential role in it. Pity the poor naked apes.

Then I am asking you to acknowledge that my goal is to save their lives so that they can continue being pitiable.

Also, no, I have no pity at all for people who know they are doing wrong, and not in the minor way, but in big major ways that cause grievous harm, but honestly rationalize that their materialism is more important than human lives.

In short, I have no pity for evil.

404 keloyd  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:26:01pm

re: #379 SanFranciscoZionist

My Iraqi Jewish friends, who address God as Allah when they pray in Judeo-Arabic would be surprised to hear that.

Turns out Baghdad was 1/3 Jewish during WW1. ~10 Jews remain today, either in mixed marriages or too old and stubborn to leave. Other than these people, Saddam Hussein scapegoated the last tiny handful that remained in the 70s after the vast majority left in 1948.

405 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:26:01pm

re: #332 marjoriemoon

He's an avid reader, sci-fi alternative history stuff. CS Lewis was a heathen converted to God yes?

It was here [in the hospital at Le Tréport] that I first read a
volume of Chesterton. I had never heard of him and had no idea of
what he stood for; nor can I quite understand why he made such an
immediate conquest of me. It might have been expected that my
pessimism, my atheism, and my hatred of sentiment would have made him
to me the least congenial of all authors. It would almost seem that
Providence, or some 'second cause' of a very obscure kind, quite over-
rules our previous tastes when It decides to bring two minds together.
Liking an author may be as involuntary and improbable as falling in
love. I was by now a sufficiently experienced reader to distinguish
liking from agreement. I did not need to accept what Chesterton said
in order to enjoy it. His humour was of the kind which I like best -
not 'jokes' imbedded in the page like currants in a cake, still less
(what I cannot endure), a general tone of flippancy and jocularity,
but the humour which is not in any way separable from the argument but
is rather (as Aristotle would say) the 'bloom' on dialectic itself.
[...] Moreover, strange as it may seem, I liked him for his goodness.
I can attribute this taste for myself quite freely (even at that age)
because it was a liking for goodness which had nothing to do with any
attempt to be good myself ...

In reading Chesterton, as in reading MacDonald, I did not know what I was letting myself in for. A young man who wishes to remain a sound
Atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. There are traps
everywhere - 'Bibles laid open, millions of surprises,' as Herbert
says, 'fine nets and stratagems.' God is, if I may say it, very
unscrupulous.

-- C. S. Lewis, of 1918, in Surprised By Joy, 1955

406 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:26:05pm

re: #118 MandyManners

I am talking about the delusion that Mohammed had, not about the word.

If we start referring to messages from God as 'delusions' around here, a lot of religions are gonna go down really damn quick. I am a fanatic believer in milquetoast politeness about the faith of others.

407 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:26:20pm

re: #392 Alouette

Including dinosaurs?

/

"Cats and rats and elephants, but sure as you're born
You're never gonna see no Unicorn."

408 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:26:33pm

re: #381 Walter L. Newton

Idioma is a troll, only pops in here when he/she sees an opportunity to be a complete bigot in regards to religion.

Don't feed it.

"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! Listen to my ideas only! I'm important! Love Me! Love Me! Say that You Love ME!"

-Walter

409 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:26:51pm

re: #399 windsagio

Mind control helmets! (the sattelites are too easy to circumnavigate with tinfoil)

I was thinking big bubbles that we all roll around in

410 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:26:54pm

re: #392 Alouette

Including dinosaurs?

/

Except unicorns.

411 keloyd  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:26:56pm

re: #404 keloyd
forgot to cite

412 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:27:10pm

re: #402 Decatur Deb

IIRC, killer animals were tried and executed in Europe, up through the Middle Ages. Will Google.

[Link: www.blueridgecountry.com...]

Contains a pretty disturbing photo.

413 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:27:13pm

re: #401 drcordell

How is this disgusting hatred tolerated here?

My opinion is that g-d is a construct of man and has no relation to anything real. Is that hatred.

414 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:27:24pm

re: #394 windsagio

Hedley Lamarr: Qualifications?
Applicant: Rape, murder, arson, and rape.
Hedley Lamarr: You said rape twice.
Applicant: I like rape.

415 Locker  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:27:25pm

re: #393 Aceofwhat?

out of curiosity, what would murder-prevention legislation look like?

No idea. I was only making an observation from a very limited perspective with regard to laws being deterrents and it's not a blanket condemnation. IMO a law is more likely to deter behavior in reverse proportion to how serious the "crime". i.e. a 200 dollar parking fine might stop you from parking illegally but if you are pissed at someone and want to kill them, I'm pretty sure the law isn't going to stop you at all.

416 cliffster  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:27:26pm

re: #387 LudwigVanQuixote

Well if that was actually how those conversations went you might have a point. Why not try it without twisting my words.. very dishonest.

I never twist your words. It's silly for you to say that I do. I'm saying you reach ridiculous conclusions about things. This was another case of that. Go back and read what you wrote.

417 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:27:28pm

re: #406 SanFranciscoZionist

You are right that its a terminology we don't want to start using :P

418 Bagua  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:27:45pm

When considering the link between smoking, eating or snuffing tobacco, it is important to understand the influence of dosage and genetics.

While it is 'correct' to say 'smoking tobacco causes cancer' it is also necessary to note the influence of tumour suppressing genes and dosage.

A person with strong tumour suppressing genes may smoke 2 packs of tobacco a day their entire life and not get cancer, yet his wife, who didn't smoke at all, gets lung cancer from the second hand smoke after 20 years living with the smoker.

Thus the tobacco is not carcinogenic to the smoker at that dose, but it is to his wife at a vastly lower dose. It may well become carcinogenic for the smoker at a higher dose, we can not determine this which is why there is no known safe dose.

While it is always wise to reduce your dose if quitting is not an option, you also shouldn't have a false sense of safety from this, or use this as an alternative to complete avoidance of tobacco in any form. You simply do not know if you have strong or weak tumour suppressing genes. Thus you are playing Russian roulette at any level of exposure.

BBL, sorry for the rant.

419 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:27:46pm

re: #413 Walter L. Newton

Not in my opinion.

420 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:27:57pm

The right wing blogosphere is getting weirder and weirder: Crazytown Watch: Charles Johnson Conflates Some Fringe Group With Rick Perry.

Once again, I'm "crazy" because I find these groups disturbing. But not just "crazy" -- also sneaky and evil because I'm "conflating" Repent Amarillo with Rick Perry. Because I hate small government, or something.

Yep, that's how her argument goes. Now why would I mention Rick Perry in a post about Texas? It's a head-scratcher, all right. Must have been nefarious.

421 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:28:02pm

re: #413 Walter L. Newton

do you go around calling all theistic religions 'delusional'?

As far as I can tell you're more polite than that :;p

422 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:28:08pm

re: #407 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Beat me by seconds.

423 drcordell  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:28:10pm

re: #406 SanFranciscoZionist

If we start referring to messages from God as 'delusions' around here, a lot of religions are gonna go down really damn quick. I am a fanatic believer in milquetoast politeness about the faith of others.

It's true. As an atheist I'm constantly biting my tongue out of respect for the religious beliefs of others. I am not afraid to tell someone what my personal beliefs are, but I would never denigrate someone's faith by calling it a "delusion."

424 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:28:12pm

re: #394 windsagio

Again, murder rape and theft aren't about legislating morality

They're about public safety and the stability of society.

Legislating morality would be more like zoning strip clubs out of existance, or sodomy laws.


There was an argument broached about that earlier. I have no problem with zoning laws, they involve "public safety" by protecting children from exposure to certain types of behavior.

One of the reasons I can still manage to live in Euro they have a proper attitude about certain things having a place, including gambling, drugs and pürostitution. One should be able to get ones ya-ya's out and then get on with one's life.

In America we see a constant friction between those who believe in the "slippery slope", that even tolerating immoral behavior is tanamout to promoting it, and another incredibly immature and extroverted factions that seems to believe that one should be free to pursue one's happiness any/everywhere.

425 cliffster  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:28:31pm

re: #407 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"Cats and rats and elephants, but sure as you're born
You're never gonna see no Unicorn."

Yay, Shel Silverstein!

426 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:28:46pm

re: #356 Yashmak

Sounds like these folks should have a mixer with the Westboro Baptist folks. They could compare the sizes of their moral superiority.

What if they bred?

427 Locker  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:28:54pm

re: #414 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Can't hate on the Blazing Saddles quote. Ring a ding ding.

428 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:29:22pm

re: #319 drcordell

In the future, you might refrain from drawing inferences about entire groups of people based on isolated experiences. If I were to publicly expound about a personal experience that many Jews I encounter in NYC are bankers, I can't imagine that it would be well received.

You like being a little shit and I like watching. Does that make me naughty?

429 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:29:39pm

re: #403 LudwigVanQuixote

Then I am asking you to acknowledge that my goal is to save their lives so that they can continue being pitiable.

Also, no, I have no pity at all for people who know they are doing wrong, and not in the minor way, but in big major ways that cause grievous harm, but honestly rationalize that their materialism is more important than human lives.

In short, I have no pity for evil.

By your definition, humanity as a whole is evil except those who read your posts here and agree with all of them.

This, again, is where we part company. I see more ignorance and weakness than active evil. Which certainly does exist, but not in the globalized way you portray it.

430 drcordell  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:29:40pm

re: #413 Walter L. Newton

My opinion is that g-d is a construct of man and has no relation to anything real. Is that hatred.

No, I agree with you 100%. Being an atheist is different than singling out Islam and Islam alone and deriding its founder as "delusional." Not to mention the offensive avatar.

431 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:29:53pm

re: #332 marjoriemoon

He's an avid reader, sci-fi alternative history stuff. CS Lewis was a heathen converted to God yes?

I'm Jewish so I'm working another angle ;)

Oh, crap, i thought you said you were Christian!!

sorry!! i'm a moron (don't tell Ludwig)

yes, Lewis was an atheist converted to Christianity.

432 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:30:00pm

re: #366 ShaunP

Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere, but apparently the American Family Association is calling for the death of the killer whale that killed its trainer last week. No joke:

[Link: www.afa.net...]

Bible ignored, trainer dies

You know, we Jews are very into particulars when it comes to Talmudic legalisms.

We have the capacity to distinguish between a common farm animal in an agrarian culture that an innocent bystander might reasonably expect to encounter - like an ox, in an age when most farmers kept them, and a dangerous animal who is only to be handled by a professional.

The counter example in Talmudic discourse is a Lion, not an orca. BUt the idea is the same.

One of the things that really annoys me about low brow fundie commentators is that in their simple minded drive to make everything into bite sized black and white bits, they come and take Jewish law and butcher something that really smart people take a whole lifetime to get into. It is some serious chutzpah.

433 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:30:12pm

re: #421 windsagio

do you go around calling all theistic religions 'delusional'?

As far as I can tell you're more polite than that :;p

I guess you are right. Saying " g-d is a construct of man and has no relation to anything real." is much more polite than simply saying "delusional." Thanks for pointing that out. I must have slipped, being too nice.

434 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:30:16pm

re: #159 SpaceJesus

yup, and the also consider islam to be idol worship for some reason too.

Probably thinking of the Kaaba.

435 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:30:29pm

re: #414 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hedley Lamarr: Qualifications?
Applicant: Rape, murder, arson, and rape.
Hedley Lamarr: You said rape twice.
Applicant: I like rape.

Where the white women at?

436 Buck  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:30:55pm

re: #360 drcordell

I read it. My original point stands. You can attempt to legislate morality. But inevitably it will fail. Laws against murder don't stop all murders. Laws against drugs don't stop drug use. Laws against sexual acts don't stop those acts from being performed.

Maybe the goal is a form of CONTROL... Laws are a form of control, and are designed to reduce and control these activities.

437 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:31:01pm

re: #412 Mad Al-Jaffee

We're coming along faster than I thought.

438 Yashmak  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:31:02pm

re: #426 MandyManners

What if they bred?

I imagine one of two things would happen. They'd raise kids who either
A) Bought into the hate and believed it righteous.
B) Ran as far away as they could, as fast as they could, the moment they got old enough.

439 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:31:12pm

re: #413 Walter L. Newton

My opinion is that g-d is a construct of man and has no relation to anything real. Is that hatred.

Sound is just the uniform vibration of atmosphere, but I still here it. God is just a joint-delusion. But we all feel god. We feel him when we take our shoes of at the airport. We feel him when we have to drive out of state for a legal abortion. We feel him when we cannot get married because of our orientation. We feel him when we pay our taxes to fund wars in his name. God is not real, but the actions of his followers are about as real as you can get.

440 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:31:33pm

re: #422 Decatur Deb

Beat me by seconds.

MMTA

441 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:31:37pm

This goes hand in hand with the SPLC report that militia groups have grown in numbers in the past year. However, this particular group, led by a "pastor" David Grisham doesn't appear to have caught the attention of the SPLC. Yet.

442 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:31:37pm

re: #439 idioma

here* hear

PIMF

443 ShaunP  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:31:37pm

re: #420 Charles

The right wing blogosphere is getting weirder and weirder: Crazytown Watch: Charles Johnson Conflates Some Fringe Group With Rick Perry.

Once again, I'm "crazy" because I find these groups disturbing. But not just "crazy" -- also sneaky and evil because I'm "conflating" Repent Amarillo with Rick Perry. Because I hate small government, or something.

Yep, that's how her argument goes. Now why would I mention Rick Perry in a post about Texas? It's a head-scratcher, all right. Must have been nefarious.

Wait, is this thread about Rick Perry?

444 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:31:52pm

re: #415 Locker

No idea. I was only making an observation from a very limited perspective with regard to laws being deterrents and it's not a blanket condemnation. IMO a law is more likely to deter behavior in reverse proportion to how serious the "crime". i.e. a 200 dollar parking fine might stop you from parking illegally but if you are pissed at someone and want to kill them, I'm pretty sure the law isn't going to stop you at all.

that's fine. you were making a distinction...it's just that the distinction (preventative vs punitive) is less helpful when there aren't any good examples of one of the categories. like murder prevention laws.

445 Locker  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:31:54pm

re: #435 Mad Al-Jaffee

Where the white women at?

Work, work, work, work, work... Hello Boys!

446 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:31:56pm

re: #203 Shiplord Kirel

Texas College Campus Divided Over Bible for Porn Campaign

Oh. Claaaaaassssy!

////

447 keloyd  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:32:05pm

re: #413 Walter L. Newton

My opinion is that g-d is a construct of man and has no relation to anything real. Is that hatred.

Nope, as an honest Presbyterian, that is at least plausible. Still, I'm not throwing any babies out with any bathwater. Religion is every old culture's means of organizing its moral philosophy and is an enormous source of high culture. If you're doing it right, it provides effective psych-ops tools to keep your kids from running around like little bloody savages. It gives old ladies somewhere to gossip and show off their new hats. If there is no god, I'm keeping the Church - the good version, the real one by my house, not the cartoonishly stupid examples in that Amarillo Link or on TV.

448 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:32:14pm

re: #433 Walter L. Newton

Its really the point. We should be respectful of all other belief systems, even if we think they're full of crap (I'd say even to Scientology, but I'm an extremist :p).

Even starting to talk about how you think someone elses faith is utterly false just invites stupid and meaningless argument.

449 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:33:02pm

re: #416 cliffster

I never twist your words. It's silly for you to say that I do. I'm saying you reach ridiculous conclusions about things. This was another case of that. Go back and read what you wrote.

Uhuh:

Definitions of schizophrenia on the Web:

any of several psychotic disorders characterized by distortions of reality and disturbances of thought and language and withdrawal from social ...
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

A psychiatric diagnosis denoting a persistent, often chronic, mental illness variously affecting behavior, thinking, and emotion; Any condition in which disparate or mutually exclusive activities coexist
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/schizophrenia

So no, I used the word completely correctly in the context given.

450 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:33:26pm

re: #448 windsagio

also its weak sauce picking on a religion because its a safe target (say Islam or, again COS).

451 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:33:34pm

re: #432 LudwigVanQuixote

You know, we Jews are very into particulars when it comes to Talmudic legalisms.

We have the capacity to distinguish between a common farm animal in an agrarian culture that an innocent bystander might reasonably expect to encounter - like an ox, in an age when most farmers kept them, and a dangerous animal who is only to be handled by a professional.

The counter example in Talmudic discourse is a Lion, not an orca. BUt the idea is the same.

One of the things that really annoys me about low brow fundie commentators is that in their simple minded drive to make everything into bite sized black and white bits, they come and take Jewish law and butcher something that really smart people take a whole lifetime to get into. It is some serious chutzpah.

As a Christian, if i really have an important question about what I consider the "Old Testament", I ask Jewish friends.

452 drcordell  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:33:53pm

re: #448 windsagio

Its really the point. We should be respectful of all other belief systems, even if we think they're full of crap (I'd say even to Scientology, but I'm an extremist :p).

Even starting to talk about how you think someone elses faith is utterly false just invites stupid and meaningless argument.

I'm right there with you on everything except that last bit about Scientology. Once you start charging people exorbitant fees for your "religion" and praying on vulnerable people to profit from them, you deserve to be publicly scorned.

453 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:34:10pm

re: #439 idioma

Sound is just the uniform vibration of atmosphere, but I still here it. God is just a joint-delusion. But we all feel god. We feel him when we take our shoes of at the airport. We feel him when we have to drive out of state for a legal abortion. We feel him when we cannot get married because of our orientation. We feel him when we pay our taxes to fund wars in his name. God is not real, but the actions of his followers are about as real as you can get.

Except for the fact that I my opinion about g-d doesn't carry with it the same vile hatred you have shown here.

Don't even dare try to put me in the same philosophical spider web as yourself.

454 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:34:19pm

ruh roh
Dropping like flies

A Georgia congressman (Nathan Deal) is leaving office to concentrate on running for governor
Another Georgia congressman (John Linder) is retiring after this year

And Another One Bites The Dust

Eric Massa to retire (New York) after one term
Read more: [Link: www.politico.com...]

[Link: www.politico.com...]

455 drcordell  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:34:22pm

re: #452 drcordell

I'm right there with you on everything except that last bit about Scientology. Once you start charging people exorbitant fees for your "religion" and praying on vulnerable people to profit from them, you deserve to be publicly scorned.

*preying. PIMF. Although I suppose in that context it's something of a pun.

456 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:34:31pm

re: #420 Charles

It's a product of the mentality "you're either with us or against us," w/o consideration of any grey areas.

On the other side of the spectrum, I was once accused of being in league with the likes of Pat Robertson for having the audacity to suggest (on a pro-choice mailing list) that it seemed only prudent to let kids know, in a sex education class, that while it is good to use safe sex techniques, it's also "ok" to not have sex at all. I opened the flood gates of abuse on that one.

457 Kragar  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:34:45pm

re: #450 windsagio

also its weak sauce picking on a religion because its a safe target (say Islam or, again COS).

I'm gonna start ragging on the Amish because hey, they're Amish. Not like they're gonna see it on the internet.

/

458 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:34:56pm

re: #448 windsagio

I think they all are. But in many cases the underlying social organization does serve a definite purpose in the community.

And since I don't see any gain from arguing the position in this forum I see no reason for bringing it up usually.

459 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:34:57pm

re: #452 drcordell

I'm an extremist-tolerance type :P

460 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:35:09pm

re: #448 windsagio

Its really the point. We should be respectful of all other belief systems, even if we think they're full of crap (I'd say even to Scientology, but I'm an extremist :p).

Even starting to talk about how you think someone elses faith is utterly false just invites stupid and meaningless argument.

Do you respect someone's beliefs in math? Geography? Physics? Mechanics? Engineering? How about a pilot that believes his plane will land without his intervention? A surgeon that prays instead of operates? A dispatch that doesn't send help, because, after all it IS the will of his god. Why respect belief? Why not demand evidence like we do with anything else?

461 drcordell  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:35:12pm

re: #454 sattv4u2

ruh roh
Dropping like flies

A Georgia congressman (Nathan Deal) is leaving office to concentrate on running for governor
Another Georgia congressman (John Linder) is retiring after this year

And Another One Bites The Dust

Eric Massa to retire (New York) after one term
Read more: [Link: www.politico.com...]

[Link: www.politico.com...]

I can't believe all those Democrats keep retiring! They must be running scared about the 2010 midterms.

/

462 Locker  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:35:19pm

re: #448 windsagio

Its really the point. We should be respectful of all other belief systems, even if we think they're full of crap (I'd say even to Scientology, but I'm an extremist :p).

Even starting to talk about how you think someone elses faith is utterly false just invites stupid and meaningless argument.

I sincerely respect anyone who is able to be universally tolerant. Personally I can give respect as long as it's given in return. If, on the other hand, someone comes off as disrespectful then I don't feel that I owe respect in return

Yes that violates the whole "turn the other cheek" thing but sometimes a dumbass needs to be checked, even if that dumbass is me.

463 Yashmak  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:35:28pm

re: #457 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm gonna start ragging on the Amish because hey, they're Amish. Not like they're gonna see it on the internet.

/

Good point! :)

464 cliffster  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:35:28pm

re: #449 LudwigVanQuixote

Uhuh:

Definitions of schizophrenia on the Web:

any of several psychotic disorders characterized by distortions of reality and disturbances of thought and language and withdrawal from social ...
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

A psychiatric diagnosis denoting a persistent, often chronic, mental illness variously affecting behavior, thinking, and emotion; Any condition in which disparate or mutually exclusive activities coexist
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/schizophrenia

So no, I used the word completely correctly in the context given.

I know what schizophrenia is, thank you very much. Do you know what a forest is? Do you know how it differs from trees? Again, you would seriously describe people as schizophrenic that are clearly not. Just like you call people racist who clearly are not, etc etc.

465 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:35:29pm

re: #405 The Sanity Inspector

it's just such beautiful prose...

466 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:35:31pm

re: #451 Aceofwhat?

As a Christian, if i really have an important question about what I consider the "Old Testament", I ask Jewish friends.

You have freinds!?!?!
/

467 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:35:58pm

re: #449 LudwigVanQuixote

Uhuh:

Definitions of schizophrenia on the Web:

any of several psychotic disorders characterized by distortions of reality and disturbances of thought and language and withdrawal from social ...
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

A psychiatric diagnosis denoting a persistent, often chronic, mental illness variously affecting behavior, thinking, and emotion; Any condition in which disparate or mutually exclusive activities coexist
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/schizophrenia

So no, I used the word completely correctly in the context given.

You actually insult people who are truly suffering from clinical schizophrenia by using the term in the way you did.

468 Neutral President  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:36:00pm

re: #448 windsagio

Its really the point. We should be respectful of all other belief systems, even if we think they're full of crap (I'd say even to Scientology, but I'm an extremist :p).

Even starting to talk about how you think someone elses faith is utterly false just invites stupid and meaningless argument.

In the case of Scientology though, there exists proof it was completely made up whole-cloth by LR Hubbard to make money. There exists no concrete 'proof of bullshit' for other religions to my knowledge.

469 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:36:04pm

re: #453 Walter L. Newton

See that's exactly my point.

Atheists tend to politely crap on other religions all the time :p

Then you have people like Idioma that make you guys look bad >>

470 Locker  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:36:28pm

re: #453 Walter L. Newton

Except for the fact that I my opinion about g-d doesn't carry with it the same vile hatred you have shown here.

Don't even dare try to put me in the same philosophical spider web as yourself.

I triple dog dare you!

471 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:36:34pm

re: #461 drcordell

I can't believe all those Democrats keep retiring! They must be running scared about the 2010 midterms.

/

ya might wanna check the last one for the 'reason"

Linder has been there for a long time,, Deal is concentrating on his governorship run

472 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:36:55pm

re: #453 Walter L. Newton

Except for the fact that I my opinion about g-d doesn't carry with it the same vile hatred you have shown here.

Don't even dare try to put me in the same philosophical spider web as yourself.

You still whine like a gut-shot cop. I'm intellectually honest enough to say that belief alone does not deserve respect. You are willing to pretend to respect belief, just to avoid the kind of conversation that we refuse to have at great expense to humanity. What are you afraid of?

473 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:37:09pm

re: #468 ArchangelMichael

That's not a safe area of discussion. That being said, I can think of one major modern religion that has some pretty good (if not absolute) 'proof of bullshit' :p

474 cliffster  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:37:24pm

re: #449 LudwigVanQuixote

Anyways, I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. I single this stuff out simply because you seem very passionate about your ideas, and your presentation of them gets colored unjustly by these tangents you throw out there.

475 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:37:36pm

re: #470 Locker

I triple dog dare you!

You dare me what? You agree with the sort of hatred that Idioma constantly displays here?

476 drcordell  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:37:41pm

re: #471 sattv4u2

ya might wanna check the last one for the 'reason"

Linder has been there for a long time,, Deal is concentrating on his governorship run

Are some of them actually Democrats? I had assumed that they were Republicans.

477 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:37:57pm

re: #472 idioma

(old internet meme)

Blatant troll is blatant.

478 Locker  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:37:58pm

re: #457 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm gonna start ragging on the Amish because hey, they're Amish. Not like they're gonna see it on the internet.

/

I want this on a Tshirt... hellooo cafe press.

479 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:38:20pm

re: #476 drcordell

Are some of them actually Democrats? I had assumed that they were Republicans.

Deal and Linder are "R"s

Massa ,,, not so much

480 Yashmak  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:38:34pm

re: #469 windsagio

See that's exactly my point.

Atheists tend to politely crap on other religions all the time :p

Then you have people like Idioma that make you guys look bad >>

Let's be fair, members of just about ANY belief system will 'politely crap on' other religion or belief systems in that manner, even if all they're doing is describing the differences. No one holds the corner in that market.

481 Locker  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:38:44pm

re: #475 Walter L. Newton

You dare me what? You agree with the sort of hatred that Idioma constantly displays here?

It's a quote from A Christmas Story, just playing off the word dare.

482 cliffster  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:39:27pm

re: #481 Locker

It's a quote from A Christmas Story, just playing off the word dare.

I dare you to lick that frozen light post

483 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:39:36pm

re: #480 Yashmak

I should have added 'on LGF'.

Otherwise you're right.

484 Locker  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:39:41pm

re: #481 Locker

It's a quote from A Christmas Story, just playing off the word dare.

More...

Flick: Are you kidding? Stick my tongue to that stupid pole? That's dumb!
Schwartz: That's 'cause you know it'll stick!
Flick: You're full of it!
Schwartz: Oh yeah?
Flick: Yeah!
Schwartz: Well I double-DOG-dare ya!
Ralphie as Adult: [narrating] NOW it was serious. A double-dog-dare. What else was there but a "triple dare you"? And then, the coup de grace of all dares, the sinister triple-dog-dare.
Schwartz: I TRIPLE-dog-dare ya!
Ralphie as Adult: [narrating] Schwartz created a slight breach of etiquette by skipping the triple dare and going right for the throat!

485 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:39:45pm

re: #464 cliffster

Wow you really do not quit.

I would certainly call a religious nut case who is incapable of clearly perceiving reality to the extent of violent action based on false premises, internal fantasies and a hateful psychology schizophrenic.

Of course taking any belief system to the point where you can no longer accept stark and easily verified reality that conflicts with it is a form of delusion and it really is schizophrenia as per the definition. It's just that this form of mental illness is associated with religion and we piggy back the respect we have for faith onto feeling uncomfortable calling the insane insane.

Your problem cliff is that you like to judge others strictly, but you do not like it when those same definitions get turned on people or causes you like.

486 drcordell  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:39:59pm

re: #480 Yashmak

Let's be fair, members of just about ANY belief system will 'politely crap on' other religion or belief systems in that manner, even if all they're doing is describing the differences. No one holds the corner in that market.

It's true. You can't really be a member of any faith unless you believe that everybody else is wrong, and going to hell. Maybe Baha'i and a few other eastern religions?

487 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:40:06pm

re: #472 idioma

You still whine like a gut-shot cop. I'm intellectually honest enough to say that belief alone does not deserve respect. You are willing to pretend to respect belief, just to avoid the kind of conversation that we refuse to have at great expense to humanity. What are you afraid of?

Walter DOES respect someone elses beleif, even though he is NOT a "beleiver"

Why would you NOT respect someone elses beleif(s)!?!?!

488 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:40:17pm

Walter, why do you bother to defend religion? Why is 'belief' deserving of respect? Do you really think the world is better off because of religion? What evidence do you have to support that belief? Be honest about how you feel about this.

489 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:40:32pm

re: #467 Walter L. Newton

You actually insult people who are truly suffering from clinical schizophrenia by using the term in the way you did.

Is that your professional opinion?

Walter you should stay out of this one. It's over your head.

490 Yashmak  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:40:41pm

re: #483 windsagio

I should have added 'on LGF'.

Otherwise you're right.

Heh, I only responded because, as an atheist myself, I felt your comment had politely crapped on me. :)

491 drcordell  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:40:47pm

re: #487 sattv4u2

Walter DOES respect someone elses beleif, even though he is NOT a "beleiver"

Why would you NOT respect someone elses beleif(s)!?!?!

Belief. Believer. Sorry, I just had to do it.

492 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:41:10pm

re: #486 drcordell

There are some syncretistic modern faiths too. A number of historical ones are accepting, but in kind of a patronizing way :p

493 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:41:17pm

Charles:

There’s been talk lately in Texas about seceding from the US. Even Republican Governor Rick Perry has broadly hinted that Texas should exercise its “tenth amendment” rights.

Secession and exercising the 10th Amendment are two separate and distinct issues.

The 10th:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

That's not the same as secession, although some who propose secession cite the federal government overreach beyond the terms of the 10th as grounds to do so.

The 10th is and should be read as a limitation on federal power - and yet in the past it has often been minimized via Art 1, Sec. 8, Cl. 18, (necessary and proper) "To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof."

What Perry might be hinting at is suing the federal government on 10th Amendment grounds to prohibit the federal government from overreaching on those issues.

494 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:42:06pm

re: #439 idioma

Sound is just the uniform vibration of atmosphere, but I still here it. God is just a joint-delusion. But we all feel god. We feel him when we take our shoes of at the airport. We feel him when we have to drive out of state for a legal abortion. We feel him when we cannot get married because of our orientation. We feel him when we pay our taxes to fund wars in his name. God is not real, but the actions of his followers are about as real as you can get.

go fuck yourself. data wins.

495 cliffster  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:42:20pm

re: #485 LudwigVanQuixote

Your problem cliff is that you like to judge others strictly, but you do not like it when those same definitions get turned on people or causes you like.

Ha! I have never had a single discussion with you like this about "causes that I like", except for your goings off on Conservatism. And who exactly have you ever sen me judging, strictly or otherwise? We're all electrons in the tubes here; I think you're getting cliffster electrons mixed up with other peoples'.

496 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:43:21pm

re: #364 idioma

Yeah, he's going to gum me to death. Words are not the worst thing I've had to deal with in my life.

Just my observation of you, I don't have the time or inclination to search your posts and I have a feeling you'll reveal same in short order (if you haven't already, I see I'm behind about 70 comments....)

You're a mean-spirited, bitter person. I'm not sure if you're evil, but most mean, bitter people I've known usually are. You have an agenda, and that's fine, but you attack others to make it. And I think get some joy in that. So eh, maybe you are evil.

497 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:43:32pm

re: #490 Yashmak

hah! Well said!

but read this thread. With the exception of Scientology, the people on here that say bad things about other religions (say, Islam) get roundly (and rightly) slapped down, and hard.

People that say various forms of 'all religion is illusion' never get any comment.

That's what I'm getting at ;p

498 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:43:44pm

re: #468 ArchangelMichael

In the case of Scientology though, there exists proof it was completely made up whole-cloth by LR Hubbard to make money. There exists no concrete 'proof of bullshit' for other religions to my knowledge.

have you read the book? it's fascinating.

499 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:43:48pm

re: #489 LudwigVanQuixote

Is that your professional opinion?

Walter you should stay out of this one. It's over your head.

Really? Don't think so. I've been more involved with this subject than you probably realize. Don't jump so fast when you don't know the facts. I have professionally dealt with the subject of schizophrenia. And no, not on some "read it in Wiki" level, on a professional level, with other professionals, and some the most knowledgeable on the subject of schizophrenia.

You don't have the facts.

I will challenge you again. Your use of schizophrenia was an insult to people who actually suffer from clinical schizophrenia.

500 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:44:02pm

re: #241 brucee

While technically all Abrahamic religions are worshipping the same god and just calling it different names, in practice I don't think if Taliban/Hezbollah and Army of God sit at the same table either would accept the other's god as but a fake one and his followers as misguided fools who shall repent ASAP or burn for eternity.

That's because both groups are bad monotheists. BAD MONOTHEISTS!!!

501 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:44:43pm

re: #495 cliffster

Ha! I have never had a single discussion with you like this about "causes that I like", except for your goings off on Conservatism. And who exactly have you ever sen me judging, strictly or otherwise? We're all electrons in the tubes here; I think you're getting cliffster electrons mixed up with other peoples'.

It could be, or it could be your rush to defend these religious cretins in Amarillo as not suffering from delusions. Since I am going on a rather straightforward application of definitions and you feigned outrage, I have to conclude what I did.

Perhaps it is just because you don't like seeing me give your wingnut buddies hell here. I am not in your head, nor do I want to be, but really cliff, you lost this one.

502 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:44:47pm

re: #493 lawhawk

True -- but the tenth amendment has become shorthand for the secessionist ravers. Perry has actually done both -- talked about the tenth amendment to nullify federal decisions and also hinted at Texas seceding.

503 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:45:06pm

re: #487 sattv4u2

Walter DOES respect someone elses beleif, even though he is NOT a "beleiver"

Why would you NOT respect someone elses beleif(s)!?!?!

Beliefs do not deserve respect. Would you respect someone's belief if they wanted to kill or enslave you? Would you respect someone's belief that the moon is made of cheese? Would you respect someone's belief that their speedometer is in error? Would you respect someone's belief that 2+2=42? We don't respect beliefs in science, and we wouldn't approve of beliefs over hard evidence if our own life was on the line, but we feel a great urge to respect religious beliefs. Why? What's the point? If what a person believes is really true, why are they so afraid of criticism? Doesn't the truth persist in the face of criticism? Why not question?

504 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:45:08pm

re: #493 lawhawk

Charles:

That's not the same as secession, although some who propose secession cite the federal government overreach beyond the terms of the 10th as grounds to do so.

The 10th is and should be read as a limitation on federal power - and yet in the past it has often been minimized via Art 1, Sec. 8, Cl. 18, (necessary and proper) "To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof."

There is a persistent (and willful) error that the provisions of Texas' entrance to the Union includes an escape mechanism.
What Perry might be hinting at is suing the federal government on 10th Amendment grounds to prohibit the federal government from overreaching on those issues.

505 Kragar  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:45:17pm

re: #500 SanFranciscoZionist

That's because both groups are bad monotheists. BAD MONOTHEISTS!!!

Luckily, I am a pantheist.

506 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:45:23pm

re: #472 idioma

You are willing to pretend to respect belief, just to avoid the kind of conversation that we refuse to have at great expense to humanity. What are you afraid of?

What expense would that be? The continued existence of any form of religion at all?

Your atheofascist knickers are showing.

507 MandyManners  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:46:24pm

re: #472 idioma

You still whine like a gut-shot cop. I'm intellectually honest enough to say that belief alone does not deserve respect. You are willing to pretend to respect belief, just to avoid the kind of conversation that we refuse to have at great expense to humanity. What are you afraid of?

Asshole.

508 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:46:52pm

re: #504 Decatur Deb

PIMF: There is a persistent (and willful) error that the provisions of Texas' entrance to the Union includes an escape mechanism.

509 ShaunP  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:47:16pm

re: #503 idioma

Beliefs do not deserve respect. Would you respect someone's belief if they wanted to kill or enslave you? Would you respect someone's belief that the moon is made of cheese? Would you respect someone's belief that their speedometer is in error? Would you respect someone's belief that 2+2=42? We don't respect beliefs in science, and we wouldn't approve of beliefs over hard evidence if our own life was on the line, but we feel a great urge to respect religious beliefs. Why? What's the point? If what a person believes is really true, why are they so afraid of criticism? Doesn't the truth persist in the face of criticism? Why not question?

If someone believes that the moon is made of cheese and that somehow encourages them to live a better life, I can respect them for it...

510 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:47:21pm

re: #503 idioma

Beliefs do not deserve respect. Would you respect someone's belief if they wanted to kill or enslave you? Would you respect someone's belief that the moon is made of cheese? Would you respect someone's belief that their speedometer is in error? Would you respect someone's belief that 2+2=42? We don't respect beliefs in science, and we wouldn't approve of beliefs over hard evidence if our own life was on the line, but we feel a great urge to respect religious beliefs. Why? What's the point? If what a person believes is really true, why are they so afraid of criticism? Doesn't the truth persist in the face of criticism? Why not question?

that idiotic line of thought leaves you unable to explain why i should not go home and torture my dog.

511 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:47:22pm

re: #506 Cato the Elder

He's the opposite of the jello troll. He'll just keep on railing since he's drawing fire so well.

512 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:47:47pm

re: #494 Aceofwhat?

go fuck yourself. data wins.

Go gently caress yourself! I can hass statistic too-more-also-plus!

513 Ericus58  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:48:04pm

re: #472 idioma

"You still whine like a gut-shot cop."

WTF - you are a fucktard. Shut your pie-hole.

514 Ben G. Hazi  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:48:06pm

re: #47 RogueOne

This is what happens when you live in a society with a 1st amendment guarantee of free speech. They are entitled to spout whatever nonsense they feel like just like we're entitled to make fun of them for those same views. Calling them the american taliban is going a bit far. Picketing businesses and enterprises we disagree with is an american tradition. When they start dragging people into the streets and beheading them for violating what they consider their religious duties then you can call them taliban. Don't lessen the term.

I respectfully disagree with your assessment, Rogue...the only thing that keeps the Texas Taliban (Repent Amarillo) from acting like the real thing is the fact they're not in charge of the country and they know they'd wind up in the hoosegow for a long time if they ever tried anything more overt than what they are doing.

A major difference (at this point) between the Repent Amarillo assclowns and psychotic killers, such as Scott Roeder and Eric Rudolph, that wore the cloak of religion in attempting to justify their heinous acts is that the RA assclowns apparently prefer life on the outside over being a martyr for "the cause"...

515 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:48:30pm

re: #511 oaktree

He's charging his hate-batteries >>

516 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:48:43pm

re: #503 idioma

Would you respect someone's belief that the moon is made of cheese?

You mean it's not?!

Damn. Wallace & Gromit lied to me.

517 cliffster  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:48:43pm

re: #502 Charles

True -- but the tenth amendment has become shorthand for the secessionist ravers. Perry has actually done both -- talked about the tenth amendment to nullify federal decisions and also hinted at Texas seceding.

And people invoking the tenth amendment in silly ways does not make it appropriate to ridicule invoking the tenth amendment in general. Which is exactly what has happened. Any time one brings up the tenth amendment, it's always, "oh, yeah, tenth amendment, you must be one of THOSE people"

518 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:49:55pm

re: #517 cliffster

Since the Civil War, 'states rights' has developed a number of connotations that range from 'unsavory' to 'foul'.

Kinda sad development imo.

519 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:50:00pm

re: #496 marjoriemoon

Just my observation of you, I don't have the time or inclination to search your posts and I have a feeling you'll reveal same in short order (if you haven't already, I see I'm behind about 70 comments...)

You're a mean-spirited, bitter person. I'm not sure if you're evil, but most mean, bitter people I've known usually are. You have an agenda, and that's fine, but you attack others to make it. And I think get some joy in that. So eh, maybe you are evil.

What is so mean spirited about what I say? I'm just being honest when I say that I don't respect belief. The text on this page has little emotional syntax, so if you detect anger of hate in these words, then you are projecting them. I'm speaking honestly. Nothing more.

520 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:50:04pm

re: #486 drcordell

It's true. You can't really be a member of any faith unless you believe that everybody else is wrong, and going to hell. Maybe Baha'i and a few other eastern religions?

disagreement does not require disrespect

521 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:50:04pm

re: #514 talon_262

Exactly. This is what they're up to now. It's obviously less than they want to be able to impose.

522 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:50:30pm

re: #499 Walter L. Newton

Really? Don't think so. I've been more involved with this subject than you probably realize. Don't jump so fast when you don't know the facts. I have professionally dealt with the subject of schizophrenia. And no, not on some "read it in Wiki" level, on a professional level, with other professionals, and some the most knowledgeable on the subject of schizophrenia.

You don't have the facts.

I will challenge you again. Your use of schizophrenia was an insult to people who actually suffer from clinical schizophrenia.

Wait weren't you claiming last thread to be an alternative energy expert at a national lab for 35 years? You know just today when you were claiming that solar and wind technology did not exist?

Now you are a psychiatrist?

Two very demanding fields for certain... Makes me wonder how you had the time.

I am very confused Walter.

523 Kragar  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:51:43pm

re: #520 Aceofwhat?

disagreement does not require disrespect

As Dan Akroyd once said, "Jane, you ignorant slut."

/

524 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:52:11pm

re: #512 idioma

Go gently caress yourself! I can hass statistic too-more-also-plus!

i believe that was the least scientific attempt at a graph i have ever seen posted here.

anyone else want to weigh in, or are they all bored by now?

note that my stats are both recent AND relevant. can you believe i've never posted anything like that before here...? never needed to. i love my atheist friends here. but you wanted to go down the rabbit hole...so let's dance.

525 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:52:13pm

re: #486 drcordell

It's true. You can't really be a member of any faith unless you believe that everybody else is wrong, and going to hell. Maybe Baha'i and a few other eastern religions?

For the record, as far as Judaism is concerned *all* good people go to heaven and are rewarded. Everyone, not just Jews.

This is one of the main reasons we do not seek converts.

526 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:52:36pm

"buddhist churches"?

527 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:52:42pm

re: #517 cliffster

And people invoking the tenth amendment in silly ways does not make it appropriate to ridicule invoking the tenth amendment in general. Which is exactly what has happened. Any time one brings up the tenth amendment, it's always, "oh, yeah, tenth amendment, you must be one of THOSE people"

The tenth amendment and state's rights have long been the dumping ground for all sorts of bad ideas, slavery, segregation, discrimination, secession, racism, creationism is schools, etc. There are legitimate constitutional issues but it's very rarely what people are talking about when they invoke the 10th.

528 ShaunP  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:52:43pm

re: #520 Aceofwhat?

disagreement does not require disrespect

On the contrary, if you want to find agreement, you need to show respect...

529 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:52:46pm

re: #373 Alouette

Where are orca whales mentioned in the bible?

They appear to be equating the orca to a farm animal, such as an ox. Not sure the analogy is a good one.

530 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:53:17pm

re: #522 LudwigVanQuixote

Wait weren't you claiming last thread to be an alternative energy expert at a national lab for 35 years? You know just today when you were claiming that solar and wind technology did not exist?

Now you are a psychiatrist?

Two very demanding fields for certain... Makes me wonder how you had the time.

I am very confused Walter.

Did he say he was a psychiatrist? The very wording that he used suggests to me that this was neither his intent nor his meaning.

531 eastsider  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:53:19pm

re: #526 000G

"buddhist churches"?

next door to the vegan butcher on route 351. Can't miss it.

532 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:53:36pm

re: #506 Cato the Elder

What expense would that be? The continued existence of any form of religion at all?

Your atheofascist knickers are showing.

How much do you think it costs for all of the religiously driven conflicts in the world to persist? How much does Israel spend? How much of that comes from the US? How much goes to gaza for the same conflict? How much foreign aid has turned into bombs, and not food? How much does it cost Pakistan to fight the Taliban? How much does it cost in Iraq?

Let's just talk dollars, and ignore the human toll of death and disease when the Pope tells an over-populated aids-infected third-world country that condoms will make their plight worse.

533 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:53:39pm

re: #518 windsagio

Since the Civil War, 'states rights' has developed a number of connotations that range from 'unsavory' to 'foul'.

Kinda sad development imo.

States rights made a lot of sense when most Americans either died in the state of their birth, on in a state they were gestating on the frontier. I've lived in five or six states. My strongest feeling for any of them is nostalgia.

534 cliffster  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:53:47pm

re: #522 LudwigVanQuixote

Wait weren't you claiming last thread to be an alternative energy expert at a national lab for 35 years? You know just today when you were claiming that solar and wind technology did not exist?

Now you are a psychiatrist?

Two very demanding fields for certain... Makes me wonder how you had the time.

I am very confused Walter.

I went to an allergist for awhile who was a lawyer for a few years, hated it, so he went to medical school and became a surgeon. Wasn't really crazy about that either, so he went back and did another rotation (or whatever the word is in medicine when you "learn another thing") and became an allergist. Or an autoimmunologist, or whatever. Relevant to nothing, except that your reference of "two very demanding fields" made me think of this guy. He was fucking brilliant. And he looked like an alien.

535 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:53:50pm

It wasn't that long ago that lizards woud complain about the topic of this thread as "smearing Christians".

536 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:53:52pm

re: #381 Walter L. Newton

Idioma is a troll, only pops in here when he/she sees an opportunity to be a complete bigot in regards to religion.

Don't feed it.

Idioma is fine in non-religious conversations. Discussion of religion triggers something.

537 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:54:13pm

re: #516 Mad Al-Jaffee

Skiing robots got the documentation changed in order to protect the slopes from excessive erosion by tourists and cheese-miners. It's all a giant conspiracy to keep Wallace's share prices for moon cheese up as well!

538 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:54:27pm

re: #386 drcordell

You haven't read Genesis Chapter 6? Noah's Ark? Remember he put two of every animal in there.

Why would orcas need to go in the ark?

539 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:54:29pm

re: #519 idioma

What is so mean spirited about what I say? I'm just being honest when I say that I don't respect belief. The text on this page has little emotional syntax, so if you detect anger of hate in these words, then you are projecting them. I'm speaking honestly. Nothing more.

ascribing the vast majority of humanity's ills to religion is juuust a tad mean-spirited. it's with pity that i must make such an obvious connection more clear to you.

540 eastsider  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:54:37pm

re: #533 Decatur Deb

States rights made a lot of sense when most Americans either died in the state of their birth, on in a state they were gestating on the frontier. I've lived in five or six states. My strongest feeling for any of them is nostalgia.

That's true. There's a lot of things that a highly mobile population makes obsolete.

541 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:54:49pm

re: #472 idioma

You still whine like a gut-shot cop. I'm intellectually honest enough to say that belief alone does not deserve respect. You are willing to pretend to respect belief, just to avoid the kind of conversation that we refuse to have at great expense to humanity. What are you afraid of?

Get over yourself.

542 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:54:56pm

re: #536 SanFranciscoZionist

Which tails strangely well with the original subject of this thread actually. Some people just have something break in them when their beliefs come up :)

543 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:54:56pm

re: #534 cliffster

He was fucking brilliant. And he looked like an alien.

They prefer to be called "Visitors" or "Newcomers" or" EBE-Americans" now.

544 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:55:06pm

re: #532 idioma

Thank you for making it so much harder for atheists to make their case to other people.

I very rarely attempt to identify the motivations of others on the internet, but everything about you says to me you're more eager for attention and contrariness than to actually convince people of your point of view. You seem totally uninterested in whether or not your 'technique' has any actual success.

545 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:55:12pm

re: #529 SanFranciscoZionist

They appear to be equating the orca to a farm animal, such as an ox. Not sure the analogy is a good one.

See my 432, it certainly is not an equivalence the Talmud would draw.

546 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:55:17pm

re: #524 Aceofwhat?

i believe that was the least scientific attempt at a graph i have ever seen posted here.

anyone else want to weigh in, or are they all bored by now?

note that my stats are both recent AND relevant. can you believe i've never posted anything like that before here...? never needed to. i love my atheist friends here. but you wanted to go down the rabbit hole...so let's dance.

I think you are missing the point. Anyone can show an unscientific graph and claim checkmate! It's a bullshit tactic, and I will respond kindly with the same.

547 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:55:33pm

re: #532 idioma

How much do you think it costs for all of the religiously driven conflicts in the world to persist? How much does Israel spend? How much of that comes from the US? How much goes to gaza for the same conflict? How much foreign aid has turned into bombs, and not food? How much does it cost Pakistan to fight the Taliban? How much does it cost in Iraq?

Let's just talk dollars, and ignore the human toll of death and disease when the Pope tells an over-populated aids-infected third-world country that condoms will make their plight worse.

what god did Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Mussolini, Pol Pot et al. believe in again? I usually have a better memory than this...can't seem to recall...

548 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:55:33pm

re: #538 SanFranciscoZionist

Why would orcas need to go in the ark?

It was in the contract.

549 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:55:57pm

re: #444 Aceofwhat?

that's fine. you were making a distinction...it's just that the distinction (preventative vs punitive) is less helpful when there aren't any good examples of one of the categories. like murder prevention laws.

According to capital punishment abolitionists some jurisdictions with the death penalty do not have significantly lower murder rates than those with a maximum penalty of life imprisonment. In this limited context one may argue that the death penalty is largely retributive since it does not materially deter.
Of course these kinds of arguments are very much open to question since the statistics on which they are based include a number of uncontrolled factors.

550 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:56:02pm

re: #533 Decatur Deb

Very good point. Otherwise its used as a way to try to get inconveninetly illegal things into law (see not just civil rights, but the Chicago gun thing)

551 cliffster  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:56:09pm

re: #527 Killgore Trout

The tenth amendment and state's rights have long been the dumping ground for all sorts of bad ideas, slavery, segregation, discrimination, secession, racism, creationism is schools, etc. There are legitimate constitutional issues but it's very rarely what people are talking about when they invoke the 10th.

I agree on the first point, but I disagree on the bolded part. It has, in fact become a way of deflecting legitimate discussion, by accusing someone of "using the same argument that segregationists used".

552 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:56:27pm

re: #535 Killgore Trout

It wasn't that long ago that lizards woud complain about the topic of this thread as "smearing Christians".

They'd be right. these assholes in Texas are smearing Christians!!

553 darthstar  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:56:36pm

re: #538 SanFranciscoZionist

Why would orcas need to go in the ark?

Freshwater flood, silly. Fortunately, orcas still had legs back then and they could walk up.

554 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:56:44pm

re: #404 keloyd

Turns out Baghdad was 1/3 Jewish during WW1. ~10 Jews remain today, either in mixed marriages or too old and stubborn to leave. Other than these people, Saddam Hussein scapegoated the last tiny handful that remained in the 70s after the vast majority left in 1948.

I know a bunch of people whose families left Baghdad in the 40s and 50s.

I know this is weird, but when the Christian community in Iraq started to get shit, one of my first thoughts was 'thank God our guys are already out of there'.

555 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:56:48pm

re: #518 windsagio

Since the Civil War, 'states rights' has developed a number of connotations that range from 'unsavory' to 'foul'.

Kinda sad development imo.

Not just sad, but one that undermines the intent of the Framers - to have a limited government in some fashion that provides more powers to states to govern on issues that were left unstated for the feds.

The evil connotations that it's taken on has meant that those who seek to legitimately restrict the power of the federal government are lumped in with those who have used it to deprive the rights of African Americans, etc.

556 darthstar  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:57:06pm

re: #548 Decatur Deb

It was in the contract.

I'm still pissed at Noah for fucking up and forgetting the unicorns.

557 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:57:09pm

re: #544 Obdicut

Thank you for making it so much harder for atheists to make their case to other people.

Had to pick this out, I'm not sure this is the appropriate forum for anybody to try to make their case on the subject.

558 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:57:33pm

re: #522 LudwigVanQuixote

Wait weren't you claiming last thread to be an alternative energy expert at a national lab for 35 years? You know just today when you were claiming that solar and wind technology did not exist?

Now you are a psychiatrist?

Two very demanding fields for certain... Makes me wonder how you had the time.

I am very confused Walter.

Reading is comprehension.

1) I said I worked at the Natioanl Renewable Energy Lab and as an employee of 13 years I was well aware of the state of the research going on at the lab. I was relating the facts of what I knew about the research while I was employed there.

2) Never said solar and wind technology didn't exist. How could I say it didn't exist when my salary was dependent on the technology every day.

3) I said that currently the technology is not financially viable for the average Jane and Joe, and for lower income families.

4) Never said I was a psychiatrist. But I have had the opportunity to work with a number of experts in the field of psychiatry, in regards to schizophrenia.

5) And your random classifying of certain people as schizophrenic is done so on your part with out any real diagnosable insight.

Not very scientific.

559 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:57:37pm

re: #539 Aceofwhat?

ascribing the vast majority of humanity's ills to religion is juuust a tad mean-spirited. it's with pity that i must make such an obvious connection more clear to you.

If what I say is true, does it matter whether or not it's mean-spirited? What if I told you that Santa Claus isn't real? If that made you cry would it be any less true? This is kinda like that.

560 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:57:57pm

re: #538 SanFranciscoZionist

Why would orcas need to go in the ark?

There is actually a discussion in the Talmud about that. Did Noah have to take a pair of every species of fish? Some say the fish did not need to be taken into the ark, others say that the waters became hostile to all life forms so the fish also had to be taken into the ark.

561 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:58:07pm

re: #556 darthstar

it was spite!

562 cliffster  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:58:13pm

re: #552 Aceofwhat?

They'd be right. these assholes in Texas are smearing Christians!!

They are certainly smearing Christ.

563 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:58:14pm

For those discussing orcas and the Ark, I think that evil ducks should be mentioned.

564 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:58:38pm

re: #549 Spare O'Lake

According to capital punishment abolitionists some jurisdictions with the death penalty do not have significantly lower murder rates than those with a maximum penalty of life imprisonment. In this limited context one may argue that the death penalty is largely retributive since it does not materially deter.
Of course these kinds of arguments are very much open to question since the statistics on which they are based include a number of uncontrolled factors.

Sure, i buy that. I think we could say (and Locker would say, although i disclaim here in an effort not to put the wrong words in their mouth) that incarceration is also a "retributive" measure.

Although while we're at it, perhaps we're just seeing it wrong. In the case of felonies that deserve (and receive) life sentences, should we more properly label incarceration as a "preventative" measure?

hmmm...

565 ShaunP  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:58:48pm

re: #559 idioma

If what I say is true, does it matter whether or not it's mean-spirited? What if I told you that Santa Claus isn't real? If that made you cry would it be any less true? This is kinda like that.

If you are trying to convince people you are right, then yes, it does matter if it is mean-spirited...

566 Ben G. Hazi  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:58:51pm

re: #77 MandyManners

No. Allah is a delusion from a mentally ill man in the Seventh Century.

WTH, Mandy?

567 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:59:11pm

re: #554 SanFranciscoZionist

seems like a logical thought to me

568 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:59:30pm

re: #555 lawhawk

There's also a problem with almost everyone not wanting to apply the concept equally.

I can't think of many people who think both that States have the right to restrict firearms AND have the right to institute literacy tests.

569 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 12:59:40pm

re: #565 ShaunP

If you are trying to convince people you are right, then yes, it does matter if it is mean-spirited...

I suspect this might be reverse-trolling, intended to sheep-dip atheism.

570 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:00:23pm

re: #559 idioma

If what I say is true, does it matter whether or not it's mean-spirited? What if I told you that Santa Claus isn't real? If that made you cry would it be any less true? This is kinda like that.

whether it matters is a different question. you asked whether it WAS.

just answering your question. you're welcome.

571 ShaunP  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:00:25pm

re: #569 Guanxi88

I suspect this might be reverse-trolling, intended to sheep-dip atheism.

What's a "sheep-dip"?

572 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:00:37pm

re: #426 MandyManners

What if they bred?

At least they'd be breeding in a larger group, rather than beginning to inbreed in their smaller ones. It may not help the crazy, but it could prevent some other stuff.

573 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:01:46pm

re: #569 Guanxi88

With thought, I kinda go with SFZ's interpretation. It makes alot of sense.

574 darthstar  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:01:54pm

re: #571 ShaunP

What's a "sheep-dip"?

A technique for treating sheep...run them down a chute with a pool full of chemicals that they're forced to jump into...like putting a flea spot on the back of your cat's neck, only different.

575 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:02:00pm

PS: I wish spellcheck would just give up on 'alot' already >>

576 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:02:08pm

re: #510 Aceofwhat?

You should not go home and torture your dog because it would be cruel to the dog, and would either be traumatic to you if you are capable of empathy, or would reinforce whatever maladaptive feeling you get out of it if you are a psychopath.

577 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:02:26pm

re: #546 idioma

I think you are missing the point. Anyone can show an unscientific graph and claim checkmate! It's a bullshit tactic, and I will respond kindly with the same.

census forms and tax returns are real data. sorry. i don't really care unless someone tries to say that religion is the root of most of what's bad...then we talk charitable donations and murderous despots.

578 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:02:30pm

re: #571 ShaunP

What's a "sheep-dip"?

It's the name of a brand of single-malt, I think.

579 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:02:31pm

re: #574 darthstar

+for a not-helpful-at-all definition :D

580 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:02:33pm

re: #571 ShaunP

What's a "sheep-dip"?

Sheep-dip is a term used to describe the sort of thing that happens when someone goes out in the guise of his or her enemy and acts in the most appalling manner possible, precisely in order to cause the enemy to suffer the greatest harm.

If you were to put on a black beret, smoke Gitanes, wear one of those stripy-shirts and do your best Maurice Chevalier impersonation while knocking down old ladies and shouting out "I'm French! I'm French!" you'd be sheep-dipping the French.

581 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:02:58pm

re: #547 Aceofwhat?

what god did Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Mussolini, Pol Pot et al. believe in again? I usually have a better memory than this...can't seem to recall...

Yawn* Hitler was a Catholic.

From the link:

"In this hour I would ask of the Lord God only this: that, as in the past, so in the years to come He would give His blessing to our work and our action, to our judgement and our resolution, that He will safeguard us from all false pride and from all cowardly servility, that He may grant us to find the straight path which His Providence has ordained for the German people, and that He may ever give us the courage to do the right, never to falter, never to yield before any violence, before any danger . . . I am convinced that men who are created by God should live in accordance with the will of the Almighty. . . If Providence had not guided us I could often never have found these dizzy paths . . . Thus it is that we National Socialists, too, have in the depths of our hearts our faith. We cannot do otherwise: no man can fashion world-history or the history of peoples unless upon his purpose and his powers there rests the blessings of this Providence."
Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Wurzburg on 27 June 1937

But even if Hitler was an atheist, what difference would that make? Did Hitler demand war in the name of "no-god"? Did Stalin demand death and destruction "in the name of atheism"?

582 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:03:15pm

re: #558 Walter L. Newton

Reading is comprehension.

1) I said I worked at the Natioanl Renewable Energy Lab and as an employee of 13 years I was well aware of the state of the research going on at the lab. I was relating the facts of what I knew about the research while I was employed there.

2) Never said solar and wind technology didn't exist. How could I say it didn't exist when my salary was dependent on the technology every day.

3) I said that currently the technology is not financially viable for the average Jane and Joe, and for lower income families.

4) Never said I was a psychiatrist. But I have had the opportunity to work with a number of experts in the field of psychiatry, in regards to schizophrenia.

5) And your random classifying of certain people as schizophrenic is done so on your part with out any real diagnosable insight.

Not very scientific.

Walter I will let you wheedle and play your standard word games... OK fine, you did not say that solar technology didn't exist, very good and literally honest, though the opposite of your argument which was that deployable solar and wind and smart grid technology did not exist.

This was patently untrue and your expert "professional opinion" was scuttled by those of us who have seen wind farms and solar houses which are off the grid.

One Lizard even lives in such a house.

You see Walter, I am picking on your nonsense.

I am picking on the fact that some very sizable portion of what you say is just simply not true and that when you are challenged, you always start with stupid semantic games and furious back-pedaling.

It is not about nit-picking with you, it is just that you are a self proclaimed expert on well everything, and that much of what you get wrong is along the lines of questions I would ask someone with a head injury to make certain that they were OK.

583 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:03:36pm

re: #580 Guanxi88

Sheep-dip is a term used to describe the sort of thing that happens when someone goes out in the guise of his or her enemy and acts in the most appalling manner possible, precisely in order to cause the enemy to suffer the greatest harm.

If you were to put on a black beret, smoke Gitanes, wear one of those stripy-shirts and do your best Maurice Chevalier impersonation while knocking down old ladies and shouting out "I'm French! I'm French!" you'd be sheep-dipping the French.

I thought that was being a "moby"

584 Velvet Elvis  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:03:41pm

re: #559 idioma

If what I say is true, does it matter whether or not it's mean-spirited? What if I told you that Santa Claus isn't real? If that made you cry would it be any less true? This is kinda like that.

Why do you feel the need to do this? I'm an Atheist and I don't feel the need to be a dick to religious people.

585 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:04:06pm

re: #583 Alouette

I thought that was being a "moby"

Same thing, different name.

586 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:04:18pm

re: #583 Alouette

'moby' is very specific to a small subset of mostly conservative blogs.

587 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:04:36pm

re: #327 LudwigVanQuixote

If you are in denial about a train rushing towards you when standing on tracks, that is will kill you.

But if there's a train rushing toward me and I'm tied to the tracks, I may well, in my last moments of life, pretend that it's a sweet chariot, comin' for to carry me home.

That's the point.

588 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:04:48pm

re: #581 idioma

But even if Hitler was an atheist, what difference would that make? Did Hitler demand war in the name of "no-god"? Did Stalin demand death and destruction "in the name of atheism"?

What about Robespierre?

589 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:04:56pm

re: #565 ShaunP

If you are trying to convince people you are right, then yes, it does matter if it is mean-spirited...

It doesn't matter if I am right or wrong. It matters if the facts that I present are right or wrong. I am truthful in my statement "respect does not deserve respect". It's an obvious statement. There is no ambiguity in it. People feel compelled to respect religious beliefs, but if it were anything else, we'd demand more evidence.

590 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:04:56pm

re: #584 Conservative Moonbat

See you're a great example, I bet people didn't even know that about you until now :)

591 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:04:56pm

re: #544 Obdicut

Thank you for making it so much harder for atheists to make their case to other people.

I very rarely attempt to identify the motivations of others on the internet, but everything about you says to me you're more eager for attention and contrariness than to actually convince people of your point of view. You seem totally uninterested in whether or not your 'technique' has any actual success.

don't worry. he's not good enough at this to even be able to smear you. this is more like a slow-roast than a real debate. but it's starting to smell good...

592 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:05:13pm

re: #457 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm gonna start ragging on the Amish because hey, they're Amish. Not like they're gonna see it on the internet.

/

Their Mennonite cousins might see it and tell them. Then you open the door one morning, and there's a big dude with a pitchfork who wants to, uh, fellowship you to death.

593 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:05:19pm

re: #590 windsagio

err, not that you should have to hide your beliefs. Its just that you don't need to make a big deal of them, and thats +++++.

594 darthstar  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:05:39pm

re: #586 windsagio

'moby' is very specific to a small subset of mostly conservative blogs.

I like moby

595 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:06:04pm

re: #576 negativ

You should not go home and torture your dog because it would be cruel to the dog, and would either be traumatic to you if you are capable of empathy, or would reinforce whatever maladaptive feeling you get out of it if you are a psychopath.

well...i know YOU have a good answer. i was only asking the guy who's having real difficulty with the question...

596 cliffster  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:06:25pm

re: #580 Guanxi88

Sheep-dip is a term used to describe the sort of thing that happens when someone goes out in the guise of his or her enemy and acts in the most appalling manner possible, precisely in order to cause the enemy to suffer the greatest harm.

If you were to put on a black beret, smoke Gitanes, wear one of those stripy-shirts and do your best Maurice Chevalier impersonation while knocking down old ladies and shouting out "I'm French! I'm French!" you'd be sheep-dipping the French.

Good description. I've often thought PETA might be trying to sheep dip the animal rights movement. Parading naked through downtown... to make people realize you should be kind to animals? Good grief.

597 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:06:37pm

re: #587 Cato the Elder

But if there's a train rushing toward me and I'm tied to the tracks, I may well, in my last moments of life, pretend that it's a sweet chariot, comin' for to carry me home.

That's the point.

Yes, but if you are not tried to the tracks and you could save yourself by moving and falsely assuming you were tied, but you started singing sweet chariot, it would be suicide. If you are dragging others with you, it is murder suicide.

That is the point.

598 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:06:42pm

re: #582 LudwigVanQuixote

Walter I will let you wheedle and play your standard word games... OK fine, you did not say that solar technology didn't exist, very good and literally honest, though the opposite of your argument which was that deployable solar and wind and smart grid technology did not exist.

This was patently untrue and your expert "professional opinion" was scuttled by those of us who have seen wind farms and solar houses which are off the grid.

One Lizard even lives in such a house.

You see Walter, I am picking on your nonsense.

I am picking on the fact that some very sizable portion of what you say is just simply not true and that when you are challenged, you always start with stupid semantic games and furious back-pedaling.

It is not about nit-picking with you, it is just that you are a self proclaimed expert on well everything, and that much of what you get wrong is along the lines of questions I would ask someone with a head injury to make certain that they were OK.

Let's get back to your ability to diagnose schizophrenia like you did up tread, and your comments to me that "Now you are a psychiatrist."

What credentials do you have to make a diagnoses of schizophrenia?

599 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:06:47pm

re: #577 Aceofwhat?

census forms and tax returns are real data. sorry. i don't really care unless someone tries to say that religion is the root of most of what's bad...then we talk charitable donations and murderous despots.

When did I say that religion is "the root of" anything? Aaaaachooo! Straw makes me sneeze!

600 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:06:51pm

re: #581 idioma

Yawn* Hitler was a Catholic.

From the link:

"In this hour I would ask of the Lord God only this: that, as in the past, so in the years to come He would give His blessing to our work and our action, to our judgement and our resolution, that He will safeguard us from all false pride and from all cowardly servility, that He may grant us to find the straight path which His Providence has ordained for the German people, and that He may ever give us the courage to do the right, never to falter, never to yield before any violence, before any danger . . . I am convinced that men who are created by God should live in accordance with the will of the Almighty. . . If Providence had not guided us I could often never have found these dizzy paths . . . Thus it is that we National Socialists, too, have in the depths of our hearts our faith. We cannot do otherwise: no man can fashion world-history or the history of peoples unless upon his purpose and his powers there rests the blessings of this Providence."
Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Wurzburg on 27 June 1937

But even if Hitler was an atheist, what difference would that make? Did Hitler demand war in the name of "no-god"? Did Stalin demand death and destruction "in the name of atheism"?


Young Stalin was also a seminary student.

601 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:06:56pm

re: #594 darthstar

The term is actually based on him! I had to look it up because I'd never heard of it and somebody called me one on here.

602 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:07:24pm

re: #467 Walter L. Newton

You actually insult people who are truly suffering from clinical schizophrenia by using the term in the way you did.

What Ludwig fails to perceive is that calling people schizo or worse-than-pedophiles does more damage to his message than Al Gore's finger-wagging drone could ever do.

603 darthstar  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:07:36pm

re: #596 cliffster

Good description. I've often thought PETA might be trying to sheep dip the animal rights movement. Parading naked through downtown... to make people realize you should be kind to animals? Good grief.

Seriously...the only time you'll catch me parading naked through town is Wednesday afternoons...and Sunday mornings...and Thursdays...

604 Locker  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:08:04pm

re: #576 negativ

You should not go home and torture your dog because it would be cruel to the dog, and would either be traumatic to you if you are capable of empathy, or would reinforce whatever maladaptive feeling you get out of it if you are a psychopath.

True. Additionally someone (like myself) might see you doing it and kick you square in the beanbag. Not that you would torture an animal but that shit seriously pisses me off and no threat of breaking personal assault laws would save the offenders nethers from getting corner kicked into oblivion.

605 Ben G. Hazi  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:08:14pm

re: #183 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Walter? How's that guy on the island still fat?

At a point, marooned on an island, don't you lose some weight after a while?

Hurley's just big-boned...

606 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:08:16pm

re: #596 cliffster

Good description. I've often thought PETA might be trying to sheep dip the animal rights movement. Parading naked through downtown... to make people realize you should be kind to animals? Good grief.

My opinion is that PETA is a talent agency for wannabee porn actresses and centerfold models.

Have you ever noticed their nekkid protestors are always young, hot babes? Never men, and never old saggy "Code Pink" old ladies.

607 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:08:25pm

re: #406 SanFranciscoZionist

If we start referring to messages from God as 'delusions' around here, a lot of religions are gonna go down really damn quick. I am a fanatic believer in milquetoast politeness about the faith of others.

I love you. I just haven't mentioned it lately :)

608 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:08:29pm

re: #602 Cato the Elder


Wow, misrepresentation!

609 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:08:31pm

re: #514 talon_262

I respectfully disagree with your assessment, Rogue...the only thing that keeps the Texas Taliban (Repent Amarillo) from acting like the real thing is the fact they're not in charge of the country and they know they'd wind up in the hoosegow for a long time if they ever tried anything more overt than what they are doing.

A major difference (at this point) between the Repent Amarillo assclowns and psychotic killers, such as Scott Roeder and Eric Rudolph, that wore the cloak of religion in attempting to justify their heinous acts is that the RA assclowns apparently prefer life on the outside over being a martyr for "the cause"...

So we're...legislating morality? (big grin)

610 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:08:59pm

re: #584 Conservative Moonbat

Why do you feel the need to do this? I'm an Atheist and I don't feel the need to be a dick to religious people.

What makes you think I'm an atheist?

611 cliffster  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:09:36pm

re: #603 darthstar

Seriously...the only time you'll catch me parading naked through town is Wednesday afternoons...and Sunday mornings...and Thursdays...

that's called, "getting arrested and put on the sex-offender's list", not "sheep dipping"

612 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:09:41pm

re: #591 Aceofwhat?

As SFZ said, he's not like this on other topics. It's frustrating. And I'm an absolutely hardcore atheist. But I think the behavior of religion and the beliefs of religion are very separate.

To me, the beliefs behind all religions are the same, in that they're all just about the supernatural, which doesn't exist.

However, the behavior of religious individuals varies wildly, and there are clearly many for whom the practice of their religion is actually an incentive towards rational thought, not away from it. Jewish ethical scholarship is a good example of this, as is Zen mysticism, and, yes, Lewis. Moreover, religious behavior is for many people simply an expression of their joy at being alive in an amazing universe.

Basically, as long as someone doesn't actually claim to know the will of god, their religion or lack thereof matters as much to me as if they believe in 'luck' or not.

613 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:09:57pm

re: #602 Cato the Elder

What Ludwig fails to perceive is that calling people schizo or worse-than-pedophiles does more damage to his message than Al Gore's finger-wagging drone could ever do.

On top of it all, he has NO credentials to diagnose anyone as schizophrenic just from an article he reads. That's first an insult to people who are truly suffering from schizophrenia and secondly it's an insult to studied professional who make decisions like that due to scientific methods of observation, study, therapy and so on.

614 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:10:03pm

re: #606 Alouette

Actually PETA is a good parallel for the idioma discussion.

They feel about the treatment of animals about the way he seems to feel about religion.

Same emotional motivation, same extreme results.

615 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:10:08pm

re: #581 idioma

Hitler wasn't a Catholic. Blanket assertion.

Next item.

I don't know why they killed so many. Sure wasn't religion's fault. So maybe the ills of humanity are more logically laid at the feet of humanity, and that parsing beliefs gets us nowhere in an attempt to judge our poor conduct.

you're certainly getting nowhere. so we have that going for us.

616 eastsider  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:10:20pm

re: #514 talon_262

I respectfully disagree with your assessment, Rogue...the only thing that keeps the Texas Taliban (Repent Amarillo) from acting like the real thing is the fact they're not in charge of the country

Don't give them any ideas! You'd be surprised how well their "platform" lines up with public opinion in some places. They may just get into Congress.

617 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:10:43pm

re: #610 idioma

because if you're not you're trolling on a world-shaking level >>

Calling you an atheist is giving ya the benefit of the doubt :D

618 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:11:06pm

re: #532 idioma

How much do you think it costs for all of the religiously driven conflicts in the world to persist? How much does Israel spend? How much of that comes from the US? How much goes to gaza for the same conflict? How much foreign aid has turned into bombs, and not food? How much does it cost Pakistan to fight the Taliban? How much does it cost in Iraq?

Let's just talk dollars, and ignore the human toll of death and disease when the Pope tells an over-populated aids-infected third-world country that condoms will make their plight worse.

I think all of the conflicts you mention are over concretely diverging interests and religion is usually just a front.

Other than that: GAZE.

619 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:11:13pm

re: #588 Alouette

What about Robespierre?

What about him? Cultist deists don't really seem relevant here. Please elaborate.

620 darthstar  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:11:17pm

re: #611 cliffster

that's called, "getting arrested and put on the sex-offender's list", not "sheep dipping"

You take me too literally. I'm always naked...on the inside.

621 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:11:33pm

re: #598 Walter L. Newton

Let's get back to your ability to diagnose schizophrenia like you did up tread, and your comments to me that "Now you are a psychiatrist."

What credentials do you have to make a diagnoses of schizophrenia?

And you take that tact because you got your ass handed to you when you tried the first one. As I wrote earlier, schizophrenia has a definition.

To be violently deluded to the point that one can not accept reality and hold contradictions in mind without second thought is a form of schizophrenia - as per definition.

Do you deny that the people who are suicide bombers for Allah or who murder physicians for Jesus are violently deluded people who can not accept realities that contradict their dogmas and hence meet the definition?

622 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:11:50pm

re: #532 idioma

How much do you think it costs for all of the religiously driven conflicts in the world to persist? How much does Israel spend? How much of that comes from the US? How much goes to gaza for the same conflict? How much foreign aid has turned into bombs, and not food? How much does it cost Pakistan to fight the Taliban? How much does it cost in Iraq?

Let's just talk dollars, and ignore the human toll of death and disease when the Pope tells an over-populated aids-infected third-world country that condoms will make their plight worse.

Don't overestimate religion as the root cause of Israel's wars. Sometimes it's just a land war in Asia.

623 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:12:55pm

re: #618 Cato the Elder

I think all of the conflicts you mention are over concretely diverging interests and religion is usually just a front.

Other than that: GAZE.

In the conflicts I mention, how many times do you think the words "god is great" were uttered? Would anyone choose to make a desert the most important place on earth if there wasn't some elaborate fairytale attached to it?

624 cliffster  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:13:06pm

re: #620 darthstar

You take me too literally. I'm always naked...on the inside.

I take everything literally. So please don't tell me you wear your heart on your sleeve.

625 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:13:08pm

re: #431 Aceofwhat?

Oh, crap, i thought you said you were Christian!!

sorry!! i'm a moron (don't tell Ludwig)

yes, Lewis was an atheist converted to Christianity.

You're not a moron. And I like talking to you, even if you piss me off a lot :)

626 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:13:51pm

re: #564 Aceofwhat?

Sure, i buy that. I think we could say (and Locker would say, although i disclaim here in an effort not to put the wrong words in their mouth) that incarceration is also a "retributive" measure.

Although while we're at it, perhaps we're just seeing it wrong. In the case of felonies that deserve (and receive) life sentences, should we more properly label incarceration as a "preventative" measure?

hmmm...

Another popular argument is that, in the case of a crime of passion, the deterrent effect of the sentence is much less than in the case of a coldly calculated crime. A husband who finds his spouse in bed with his best friend is not likely to consider the penalty while his finger is on the trigger. But a contract killer will in theory at least consider the penalty as part of his business decision.

627 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:14:23pm

re: #599 idioma

When did I say that religion is "the root of" anything? Aaaachooo! Straw makes me sneeze!

"But we all feel god. We feel him when we take our shoes of at the airport. We feel him when we have to drive out of state for a legal abortion. We feel him when we cannot get married because of our orientation. We feel him when we pay our taxes to fund wars in his name."

gosh, i don't know. maybe here?

you should leave the barn if you're allergic to the dumb.

628 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:14:28pm

re: #432 LudwigVanQuixote

You know, we Jews are very into particulars when it comes to Talmudic legalisms.

We have the capacity to distinguish between a common farm animal in an agrarian culture that an innocent bystander might reasonably expect to encounter - like an ox, in an age when most farmers kept them, and a dangerous animal who is only to be handled by a professional.

The counter example in Talmudic discourse is a Lion, not an orca. BUt the idea is the same.

One of the things that really annoys me about low brow fundie commentators is that in their simple minded drive to make everything into bite sized black and white bits, they come and take Jewish law and butcher something that really smart people take a whole lifetime to get into. It is some serious chutzpah.

That, my friend, is being ever-so-kind about it! hehe

629 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:14:45pm

There has been 580 messages since I last posted and I won't have time to read all the responses. Nice to see all the people who hate having a right to free speech.

Headed home folks, bbl.

630 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:15:04pm

re: #621 LudwigVanQuixote


This is the DSM-IV-TR definition:

Characteristic symptoms: Two or more of the following, each present for much of the time during a one-month period (or less, if symptoms remitted with treatment).

Delusions
Hallucinations
Disorganized speech, which is a manifestation of formal thought disorder
Grossly disorganized behavior (e.g. dressing inappropriately, crying frequently) or catatonic behavior
Negative symptoms: Blunted affect (lack or decline in emotional response), alogia (lack or decline in speech), or avolition (lack or decline in motivation)
If the delusions are judged to be bizarre, or hallucinations consist of hearing one voice participating in a running commentary of the patient's actions or of hearing two or more voices conversing with each other, only that symptom is required above. The speech disorganization criterion is only met if it is severe enough to substantially impair communication.

Social/occupational dysfunction: For a significant portion of the time since the onset of the disturbance, one or more major areas of functioning such as work, interpersonal relations, or self-care, are markedly below the level achieved prior to the onset.

Duration: Continuous signs of the disturbance persist for at least six months. This six-month period must include at least one month of symptoms (or less, if symptoms remitted with treatment).


I'm not sure who you're saying is schizophrenic, but I'd like to note that short-term psychotic breaks can resemble, but are not, schizophrenia.

631 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:15:24pm

re: #621 LudwigVanQuixote

And you take that tact because you got your ass handed to you when you tried the first one. As I wrote earlier, schizophrenia has a definition.

To be violently deluded to the point that one can not accept reality and hold contradictions in mind without second thought is a form of schizophrenia - as per definition.

Do you deny that the people who are suicide bombers for Allah or who murder physicians for Jesus are violently deluded people who can not accept realities that contradict their dogmas and hence meet the definition?

No... because fitting a definition is not how clinical schizophrenia is diagnosed. It is simply hyperbole on your part. Not very scientific.

No Ludwig, you can't just rush out and look at a definition on Wiki or somewhere else and suddenly diagnose a mental disorder like you did.

Sort of like non-scientist AGW deniers making unscientific statements because they read some article.

632 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:15:33pm

re: #602 Cato the Elder

What Ludwig fails to perceive is that calling people schizo or worse-than-pedophiles does more damage to his message than Al Gore's finger-wagging drone could ever do.

Ahh Cato that is sooo very disappointing to see from you. You know full well what I wrote and why when I made the pedophile analogy.

I am very disappointed.

As to the larger point, indeed people have no shame.

People contribute to evil acts all the time and never give it a second thought. If people did realize that they were part of the problem and that their actions do hav evil consequences, then they might be shamed into acting differently.

If you disagree with me applying basic definitions consistently then so be it, but from all people, I am shocked to see you of all lizards, bitch about it.

The principle is no different then saying that if you buy stolen merchandise you are the ultimate cause of the crime. After all, there would be no thieves if there were no fences.

633 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:16:22pm

re: #612 Obdicut

As SFZ said, he's not like this on other topics. It's frustrating. And I'm an absolutely hardcore atheist. But I think the behavior of religion and the beliefs of religion are very separate.

To me, the beliefs behind all religions are the same, in that they're all just about the supernatural, which doesn't exist.

However, the behavior of religious individuals varies wildly, and there are clearly many for whom the practice of their religion is actually an incentive towards rational thought, not away from it. Jewish ethical scholarship is a good example of this, as is Zen mysticism, and, yes, Lewis. Moreover, religious behavior is for many people simply an expression of their joy at being alive in an amazing universe.

Basically, as long as someone doesn't actually claim to know the will of god, their religion or lack thereof matters as much to me as if they believe in 'luck' or not.

good stuff. the only thing that i really get worked up about is the nonsense that religion (as a whole) is the root of most evil. bad people do bad things, an ill that is quite a different discussion from what you believe and i believe.

otherwise, i rather enjoy talking with people of different beliefs than mine. i'm already my own echo chamber. don't need another;)

634 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:17:08pm

re: #625 marjoriemoon

You're not a moron. And I like talking to you, even if you piss me off a lot :)

really? sorry. thanks for putting up with me.

635 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:17:16pm

re: #623 idioma

In the conflicts I mention, how many times do you think the words "god is great" were uttered? Would anyone choose to make a desert the most important place on earth if there wasn't some elaborate fairytale attached to it?

Maybe because six million or so were killed out of race-hatred and no one, nowhere, in the whole world would take in the survivors, so the went back to the one place they still had a foothold?

The ONLY reason Palestine was partitioned was because the world needed someplace to quarantine those malignant Jews. It was certainly not for love of the people of Israel.

Now, go find a rope. Come back and comment again, and Mandy will tell you what to do with it.

636 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:17:33pm

re: #632 LudwigVanQuixote

Ahh Cato that is sooo very disappointing to see from you. You know full well what I wrote and why when I made the pedophile analogy.

I am very disappointed.

As to the larger point, indeed people have no shame.

People contribute to evil acts all the time and never give it a second thought. If people did realize that they were part of the problem and that their actions do hav evil consequences, then they might be shamed into acting differently.

If you disagree with me applying basic definitions consistently then so be it, but from all people, I am shocked to see you of all lizards, bitch about it.

The principle is no different then saying that if you buy stolen merchandise you are the ultimate cause of the crime. After all, there would be no thieves if there were no fences.

Stop deflecting. How can you diagnose schizophrenia simply from a definition and an article you read about religious fanatics?

637 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:17:37pm

re: #630 Obdicut

That's the pain of the whole exercize.

At least initially he wasn't calling ANYONE schizophrenic, but comparing a host of behaviors to schizophrenia.

The People Who Hate Ludwig Club(tm) took that and decided that he was diagnosing specific people with the disorder, and used it as an avenue of attack.

638 Donna Ballard  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:17:38pm

Hi everyone, Happy Wednesday to you all!

I realize I'm a bit late to the discussion but I have a question regarding the topic of this thread.

What the heck is wrong with people today? (present company excluded of course!) I'm starting to really about what the heck is going on in the churches and schools these day so that the general public is regressing to the level of tribal idiocy! I'm seriously getting scared! Am I loosing my mind or is our country as a whole? Seriously!!!

639 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:18:18pm

re: #623 idioma

In the conflicts I mention, how many times do you think the words "god is great" were uttered? Would anyone choose to make a desert the most important place on earth if there wasn't some elaborate fairytale attached to it?

Israel and the territories occupy extremely important ancient trade and strategic routes. That held up until the breakup of the British empire.

640 Donna Ballard  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:18:31pm

re: #638 Dragon_Lady

Hi everyone, Happy Wednesday to you all!

I realize I'm a bit late to the discussion but I have a question regarding the topic of this thread.

What the heck is wrong with people today? (present company excluded of course!) I'm starting to really wonder about what the heck is going on in the churches and schools these day so that the general public is regressing to the level of tribal idiocy! I'm seriously getting scared! Am I loosing my mind or is our country as a whole? Seriously!!!

PIMF!

641 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:18:37pm

re: #627 Aceofwhat?

"But we all feel god. We feel him when we take our shoes of at the airport. We feel him when we have to drive out of state for a legal abortion. We feel him when we cannot get married because of our orientation. We feel him when we pay our taxes to fund wars in his name."

gosh, i don't know. maybe here?

you should leave the barn if you're allergic to the dumb.

Is there no truth to the things which I illustrate? Do those things not happen? What is missing from this statement is any mention of "the root of". Because I never said that. I stated clearly the effects upon the modern world and religious conflict. Would you prefer that I not?

642 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:18:56pm

re: #638 Dragon_Lady

I suggest you go upthread. Its just a very hostile troll and the usual Walter&friends vs. Ludwig :p

643 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:19:10pm

re: #632 LudwigVanQuixote

Ahh Cato that is sooo very disappointing to see from you. You know full well what I wrote and why when I made the pedophile analogy.

I am very disappointed.

As to the larger point, indeed people have no shame.

People contribute to evil acts all the time and never give it a second thought. If people did realize that they were part of the problem and that their actions do hav evil consequences, then they might be shamed into acting differently.

If you disagree with me applying basic definitions consistently then so be it, but from all people, I am shocked to see you of all lizards, bitch about it.

The principle is no different then saying that if you buy stolen merchandise you are the ultimate cause of the crime. After all, there would be no thieves if there were no fences.

dude. he knows why you wrote it. he's just saying it's unhelpful.

i say that a lot too about you. you're often right, but in manner harmful to your ability to be persuasive to anyone else.

The...uhhh..."evidence" and "data"...if i may be so glib...support Cato's "theory".

644 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:19:21pm

re: #637 windsagio

That's the pain of the whole exercize.

At least initially he wasn't calling ANYONE schizophrenic, but comparing a host of behaviors to schizophrenia.

The People Who Hate Ludwig Club(tm) took that and decided that he was diagnosing specific people with the disorder, and used it as an avenue of attack.

He was not comparing, he was using the definition as a diagnoses

Definitions of schizophrenia on the Web:

any of several psychotic disorders characterized by distortions of reality and disturbances of thought and language and withdrawal from social ...
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

A psychiatric diagnosis denoting a persistent, often chronic, mental illness variously affecting behavior, thinking, and emotion; Any condition in which disparate or mutually exclusive activities coexist
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/schizophrenia

So no, I used the word completely correctly in the context given.

645 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:19:30pm

re: #638 Dragon_Lady

Hi everyone, Happy Wednesday to you all!

I realize I'm a bit late to the discussion but I have a question regarding the topic of this thread.

What the heck is wrong with people today? (present company excluded of course!) I'm starting to really about what the heck is going on in the churches and schools these day so that the general public is regressing to the level of tribal idiocy! I'm seriously getting scared! Am I loosing my mind or is our country as a whole? Seriously!!!

Folk are going nutso.

Eh, it's the Kali Yuga - whaddaya want?

646 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:20:09pm

re: #626 Spare O'Lake

Another popular argument is that, in the case of a crime of passion, the deterrent effect of the sentence is much less than in the case of a coldly calculated crime. A husband who finds his spouse in bed with his best friend is not likely to consider the penalty while his finger is on the trigger. But a contract killer will in theory at least consider the penalty as part of his business decision.

well said

647 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:20:26pm

re: #460 idioma

Do you respect someone's beliefs in math? Geography? Physics? Mechanics? Engineering? How about a pilot that believes his plane will land without his intervention? A surgeon that prays instead of operates? A dispatch that doesn't send help, because, after all it IS the will of his god. Why respect belief? Why not demand evidence like we do with anything else?

You know, it's ok for you if you have no faith. What pisses you off, for some unknown reason, are those who do have faith.

You want to be respected for not having any faith, yet you can't respect others who do? I should have added selfish to nasty and mean-spirited.

648 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:20:26pm

re: #637 windsagio

Ah. That's a whole different kettle of invisible purple honking fish.

649 Donna Ballard  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:20:40pm

re: #642 windsagio

I suggest you go upthread. Its just a very hostile troll and the usual Walter&friends vs. Ludwig :p

Oh? Thanks for the heads up, you know how I hate trolls. You're a pal! Upding for the heads up! :-)

650 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:21:05pm

re: #630 Obdicut

This is the DSM-IV-TR definition:

I'm not sure who you're saying is schizophrenic, but I'd like to note that short-term psychotic breaks can resemble, but are not, schizophrenia.

My friend there is a context here.

In terms of that definition would the people who are the subject of this thread be classifiable as schizophrenic?

If Beck is not putting on an act, which I think he is, I am sure it is schtick, but if he were not putting on an act, would he not fit pretty much everything on that list?

No what about the person who thinks just like Beck's rants and acts just like that but means it? Is he not as per the definitions you just gave accurately labeled so?

So ok, I am not a psychiatrist and I do not claim to be one. If someone who actually knows what they are talking about, with this professionally, can explain to me how I misapplied the definition, then I will gladly take that as a learning experience.

Untill then I will say that I believe I have applied the definition properly.

651 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:21:14pm

re: #644 Walter L. Newton

I'm trying ot remember if that was in the original post.

But the fact that a definition of the word includes the the term 'A diagnosis of...' (which almost all psych definitions do) doesn't mean he was using it that way.

At best this is quibbling semantics in order to attack the guy.

652 cliffster  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:21:57pm

re: #642 windsagio

I suggest you go upthread. Its just a very hostile troll and the usual Walter&friends vs. Ludwig :p

I'm not a troll, jerkface.. ;)

653 prairiefire  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:22:03pm

re: #630 Obdicut

Hi, Obdicut. Hope you are well.
If I live my life as a rational, stable citizen, and hear the voice of God in my head speaking to me, does that fall under hysterical delusion or just a lie I created?

654 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:22:08pm

re: #636 Walter L. Newton

I just answered you.

As to psychological terms whenever you talk of deflecting, I think of how the word projection applies to you.

You were answered twice.

655 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:22:18pm

re: #648 Obdicut

I just realized I misspelled 'exercise' in my post above :p

656 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:22:51pm

re: #622 SanFranciscoZionist

Don't overestimate religion as the root cause of Israel's wars. Sometimes it's just a land war in Asia.

Upding for that classic reference. Seriously, though: Why choose the holy land in such a place? Why should Jews want to fight and die, defending a desert? Why not just pick some uninhabited land and start over? I would say the same to the Palestinians. Why fight and die for this land? For what other reason could it possibly be worth fighting, if not the convoluted notion that when you die there is some reward for your actions?

657 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:22:54pm

re: #641 idioma

Is there no truth to the things which I illustrate? Do those things not happen? What is missing from this statement is any mention of "the root of". Because I never said that. I stated clearly the effects upon the modern world and religious conflict. Would you prefer that I not?

No. I would prefer that you not leave out the effects upon the modern world of conflict of a non-religious nature.

then you might see (but i doubt it) that what you have is a human tragedy...not a religious one.

it is not what you are saying. it is what you are saying and not saying. half of the truth is not the truth.

658 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:23:20pm

Under the folksy-but-unscientific and purely rhetorical definition of schizophrenia being batted around here by my esteemed friend the climatologist, absolutely anyone could be labeled that way at some point in their lives. Including you, Ludwig.

659 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:23:21pm

re: #648 Obdicut

Ah. That's a whole different kettle of invisible purple honking fish.

are they good raw?

660 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:24:04pm

re: #650 LudwigVanQuixote

My friend there is a context here.

In terms of that definition would the people who are the subject of this thread be classifiable as schizophrenic?

If Beck is not putting on an act, which I think he is, I am sure it is schtick, but if he were not putting on an act, would he not fit pretty much everything on that list?

No what about the person who thinks just like Beck's rants and acts just like that but means it? Is he not as per the definitions you just gave accurately labeled so?

So ok, I am not a psychiatrist and I do not claim to be one. If someone who actually knows what they are talking about, with this professionally, can explain to me how I misapplied the definition, then I will gladly take that as a learning experience.

Untill then I will say that I believe I have applied the definition properly.

You are not a psychiatrist. You can't just flip through the DSM IV and say that you have applied some diagnoses properly.

You can say these people "act" like they are schizophrenic, but you are not qualified in any sort of why to apply anything in the DSM IV to anyone.

661 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:24:42pm

re: #658 Cato the Elder

You've been on LVQ's ass lately, I've noticed. Is it because he's in a mutual death-throttle with your friend?

662 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:24:50pm

re: #650 LudwigVanQuixote

If Beck is not putting on an act, which I think he is, I am sure it is schtick, but if he were not putting on an act, would he not fit pretty much everything on that list?

Well, he doesn't tend towards catatonic at any point, but yeah, the combination of affect and delusion, if one were to believe him, would be consistent with schizophrenia.

If Farakkhan actually believes in his many reported 'spiritual' experiences, hearing his dead mentor's voice, etc, then that is also consistent with schizophrenia.

If all you were saying was that if we believe Beck is honest he's acting in a way consistent with schizophrenia, you're quite correct.

663 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:25:10pm

re: #650 LudwigVanQuixote

My friend there is a context here.

In terms of that definition would the people who are the subject of this thread be classifiable as schizophrenic?

If Beck is not putting on an act, which I think he is, I am sure it is schtick, but if he were not putting on an act, would he not fit pretty much everything on that list?

No what about the person who thinks just like Beck's rants and acts just like that but means it? Is he not as per the definitions you just gave accurately labeled so?

So ok, I am not a psychiatrist and I do not claim to be one. If someone who actually knows what they are talking about, with this professionally, can explain to me how I misapplied the definition, then I will gladly take that as a learning experience.

Untill then I will say that I believe I have applied the definition properly.

so would someone need to display their credentials along with the response?

(come on - that's just damn funny right there)

664 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:25:16pm

re: #637 windsagio

That's the pain of the whole exercize.

At least initially he wasn't calling ANYONE schizophrenic, but comparing a host of behaviors to schizophrenia.

The People Who Hate Ludwig Club(tm) took that and decided that he was diagnosing specific people with the disorder, and used it as an avenue of attack.

Actually my friend I was not diagnosing, as I am not a psychiatrist, but I was using it more strongly than a mere comparison. The people who are the subject of this thread are clearly mentally imbalanced and given that they are divorced from reality and violently delusional, from my understanding of what schizophrenia means as a word, the label fits.

Again, if someone who actually knows about this and is a trustworthy source of information, i.e. not Walter, can tell me how the definition does not fit, I will be happy to take it as a learning experience.

665 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:26:00pm

re: #647 marjoriemoon

You know, it's ok for you if you have no faith. What pisses you off, for some unknown reason, are those who do have faith.

You want to be respected for not having any faith, yet you can't respect others who do? I should have added selfish to nasty and mean-spirited.

Are you seriously going to try to play the victim card here? Did you even read Charles' headline? The Texas Taliban.

That's what I have a problem with. I don't demand people respect my non-belief. That would be fucking silly. I have a lot of non-beliefs: Unicorns, elves, ghosts, wizards, etc. These non-beliefs don't demand respect, but they do require evidence if you want to change them.

666 cliffster  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:26:04pm

re: #637 windsagio

That's the pain of the whole exercize.

At least initially he wasn't calling ANYONE schizophrenic, but comparing a host of behaviors to schizophrenia.

The People Who Hate Ludwig Club(tm) took that and decided that he was diagnosing specific people with the disorder, and used it as an avenue of attack.

That would be nice. But you should go read #650. Most of the people you are saying hate Ludwig, do not hate him. Trying to help him, rather

667 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:26:13pm

re: #651 windsagio

I'm trying ot remember if that was in the original post.

But the fact that a definition of the word includes the the term 'A diagnosis of...' (which almost all psych definitions do) doesn't mean he was using it that way.

At best this is quibbling semantics in order to attack the guy.

"Untill then I will say that I believe I have applied the definition properly." That's what he said.

And no, I am not using it to attack him. I wasn't even the first person to bring it up, but, I have had an extensive relationship to this subject, and it you can't just apply that diagnoses to someone, anyone, from reading an article.

668 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:26:29pm

re: #664 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually my friend I was not diagnosing, as I am not a psychiatrist, but I was using it more strongly than a mere comparison.

That's what I was saying :p

669 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:26:36pm

re: #654 LudwigVanQuixote

I just answered you.

As to psychological terms whenever you talk of deflecting, I think of how the word projection applies to you.

You were answered twice.

No you didn't.

670 cliffster  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:27:15pm

re: #650 LudwigVanQuixote

So just shoot 'em up with some clozapine and people will stop paying attention to Glenn Beck?

671 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:27:23pm

re: #651 windsagio

I'm trying ot remember if that was in the original post.

But the fact that a definition of the word includes the the term 'A diagnosis of...' (which almost all psych definitions do) doesn't mean he was using it that way.

At best this is quibbling semantics in order to attack the guy.

Well that is what Walter does, but then again he believes everything is his professional opinion, and that silly word games substitute for saying things with either veracity or substance.

672 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:27:31pm

re: #653 prairiefire

There's a reason you have to display two of the behaviors on the list, consistently, over time. And honestly, if you don't feel the need to source your behavior to that voice, it really doesn't approach the realm of anything important.

673 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:28:09pm

re: #671 LudwigVanQuixote

I'm stayin' out of that part of it man.

I can call what I think is unfair behavior (hell anyone can), but I'm not gonna dig in between you guys' personal insults.

674 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:28:25pm

re: #666 cliffster

That would be nice. But you should go read #650. Most of the people you are saying hate Ludwig, do not hate him. Trying to help him, rather

And that is not insulting. Dude you are so not my shrink and you are so very certainly not my friend or interested in my best interests.

That is very insulting.

And I have been very toned down but that really does earn you a fuck you :)

675 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:28:43pm

re: #635 Cato the Elder

Maybe because six million or so were killed out of race-hatred and no one, nowhere, in the whole world would take in the survivors, so the went back to the one place they still had a foothold?

The ONLY reason Palestine was partitioned was because the world needed someplace to quarantine those malignant Jews. It was certainly not for love of the people of Israel.

Now, go find a rope. Come back and comment again, and Mandy will tell you what to do with it.

Thanks for the history lesson, but riddle me this: Why didn't the jews migrate to an unpopulated place? If the goal was to be left alone, and avoid conflict, to live in peace, wouldn't it make more sense than to choose a place immersed in fundamental Islam? What natural resources are there in Israel that makes it so special that people should fight and die over it?

676 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:28:47pm

re: #664 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually my friend I was not diagnosing, as I am not a psychiatrist, but I was using it more strongly than a mere comparison. The people who are the subject of this thread are clearly mentally imbalanced and given that they are divorced from reality and violently delusional, from my understanding of what schizophrenia means as a word, the label fits.

Again, if someone who actually knows about this and is a trustworthy source of information, i.e. not Walter, can tell me how the definition does not fit, I will be happy to take it as a learning experience.

I am certainly more of an expert on how schizophrenia is diagnosed then you are.

677 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:28:58pm

re: #622 SanFranciscoZionist

Don't overestimate religion as the root cause of Israel's wars. Sometimes it's just a land war in Asia.

You are sixteen different kids of fantastic. Just so you know.

678 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:29:18pm

re: #675 idioma

What natural resources are there in Israel that makes it so special that people should fight and die over it?

History.

679 cliffster  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:29:29pm

re: #674 LudwigVanQuixote

And that is not insulting. Dude you are so not my shrink and you are so very certainly not my friend or interested in my best interests.

That is very insulting.

And I have been very toned down but that really does earn you a fuck you :)

You're right, that was a tad condescending.

680 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:29:57pm

re: #671 LudwigVanQuixote

Well that is what Walter does, but then again he believes everything is his professional opinion, and that silly word games substitute for saying things with either veracity or substance.

I never even claimed you use the word. Cliffster did. I even mentioned up thread to cliffster that you never orginally used the word, but you ran with it and took it and now you have to deal with it.

681 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:29:57pm

re: #673 windsagio

I'm stayin' out of that part of it man.

I can call what I think is unfair behavior (hell anyone can), but I'm not gonna dig in between you guys' personal insults.

Hey and I am so not asking you to. I am shortly going to get back to work anyway.

Besides, IF I were going to be mean, I would point out that yet again Walter has been caught in utter bullshit and forgot it.

Remember, there are no solar houses and there are no wind farms....

He is an expert and that is his professional opinion.

682 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:30:17pm

re: #661 windsagio

You've been on LVQ's ass lately, I've noticed. Is it because he's in a mutual death-throttle with your friend?

Not at all. When he's right, he's right. When I think he's wrong, I say so.

Not that that makes me right.

683 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:30:41pm

re: #679 cliffster

You're right, that was a tad condescending.

Fair enough.

684 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:31:09pm

re: #682 Cato the Elder

In fairness its natural to believe you're right. I certainly do :D

(/think I"m right that is, I dunno about you sometimes :p)

685 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:31:39pm

re: #674 LudwigVanQuixote

And that is not insulting. Dude you are so not my shrink and you are so very certainly not my friend or interested in my best interests.

That is very insulting.

And I have been very toned down but that really does earn you a fuck you :)

The man who goes down the whole thread making comparisons to religious fanatics and schizophrenia suddenly bristles at someone else playing armchair psychiatrist.

Classic.

686 prairiefire  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:31:40pm

re: #672 Obdicut

I hear God's voice very rarely, really only when it was at a very important crossroads in my life. I followed the pronouncement, yes indeed. I guess I don't agree with the certainty of Atheists.

687 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:31:48pm

re: #682 Cato the Elder

Not at all. When he's right, he's right. When I think he's wrong, I say so.

Not that that makes me right.

It's all good.

Cato and I will likely always be OK because he knows how to debate on an intellectual level. Our tit for tats are fun and invigorating even when I do completely disagree with him.

688 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:31:50pm

re: #675 idioma

Thanks for the history lesson, but riddle me this: Why didn't the jews migrate to an unpopulated place?

What unpopulated place did you have in mind? Antarctica?

Gey kakn oyfn yam.

689 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:33:30pm

re: #688 Cato the Elder

What unpopulated place did you have in mind? Antarctica?

Gey kakn oyfn yam.

I know. I feel like this is unfair...like i should be a few gin-and-tonics gone so that it's a more level playing field...

690 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:33:40pm

re: #685 Walter L. Newton

The man who goes down the whole thread making comparisons to religious fanatics and schizophrenia suddenly bristles at someone else playing armchair psychiatrist.

Classic.

No Walter, what was said was that I was using the word as per the definition and that if it is being misapplied someone who knows what they are talking about, which is not you, because you have a proven history of saying very stupid and untrue things, is welcome to correct me.

691 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:33:45pm

re: #686 prairiefire

Well, if it was only at specific times, it definitely doesn't fit schizophrenia. At worst, it was a psychotic break. But it probably was just a psychological distancing from yourself, and harmless. Sometimes the same phenomena that causes deja vu can make internal thoughts appear external.

692 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:33:47pm

re: #681 LudwigVanQuixote

[snip]

Remember, there are no solar houses and there are no wind farms...

[snip]

I dare you to find a quote of me saying that? You can't and you know it.

693 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:34:02pm

re: #639 Decatur Deb

Israel and the territories occupy extremely important ancient trade and strategic routes. That held up until the breakup of the British empire.

If ancient trade routes were the key factor, why didn't the jews migrate to Iran? You and I both know that this is about Zionism. Many groups of people believe that the land of Israel is theirs, because they believe their god promised that land to them. End of story. The conflict continues because not one of those groups wants to admit that just maybe their god doesn't exist and the whole promise was man-made. This is an expensive game of make-believe, and it's taking it's toll on all of us, not just the people of the Mediterranean.re: #657 Aceofwhat?

No. I would prefer that you not leave out the effects upon the modern world of conflict of a non-religious nature.

then you might see (but i doubt it) that what you have is a human tragedy...not a religious one.

it is not what you are saying. it is what you are saying and not saying. half of the truth is not the truth.

When did I say that religion is the only cause of conflict?

694 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:34:10pm

re: #519 idioma

What is so mean spirited about what I say? I'm just being honest when I say that I don't respect belief. The text on this page has little emotional syntax, so if you detect anger of hate in these words, then you are projecting them. I'm speaking honestly. Nothing more.

The bigot that says Jews and Blacks are evil and deserve to die are speaking honestly, from their viewpoint anyway. Just being "honest" doesn't make you a kind person.

Everyone on this board, E V E R Y O N E has a problem with what you say and how you say it. Not one person agrees with you, even those who share your belief. Yet, you think you're more clever than the rest of us. And even those of us who bicker between ourselves have a hard time tolerating what you say. You demand respect, but you give none.

Take your self-righteous athiesm somewhere else.

695 Bagua  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:34:11pm

re: #685 Walter L. Newton

The man who goes down the whole thread making comparisons to religious fanatics and schizophrenia suddenly bristles at someone else playing armchair psychiatrist.

Classic.

A very common experience of first year medical students is to imagine they have all sorts of disorders that they are learning about, the is even more common among those studying psychiatry and psychology. This is why they always say "Speak to your doctor" as a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

696 prairiefire  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:34:48pm

re: #691 Obdicut

That's one explanation.

697 Silvergirl  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:34:59pm

re: #661 windsagio

You've been on LVQ's ass lately, I've noticed. Is it because he's in a mutual death-throttle with your friend?

Your own motives for ragging on/downdinging posters who are or have been in death throttles with your friends may also be questioned. Perhaps staying out of this is the best course of action.

698 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:36:09pm

re: #690 LudwigVanQuixote

[Link: www.schizophrenia.com...]

699 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:36:25pm

re: #678 Guanxi88

History.

Totally worth fighting and killing each other over? Why not move the holy sites, piece by piece, stone by stone, just like the london bridge and be done with it? Take the top six inches of soil, and move the holy land to somewhere more inviting?

700 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:36:39pm

re: #697 Silvergirl

heh, my dinging behavior really bothers you doesn't it?

hint: Dings are meaningless!

(well 'largely meaningless' but that doesn't quite carry the force, does it?)

701 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:36:56pm

re: #637 windsagio

That's the pain of the whole exercize.

At least initially he wasn't calling ANYONE schizophrenic, but comparing a host of behaviors to schizophrenia.

The People Who Hate Ludwig Club(tm) took that and decided that he was diagnosing specific people with the disorder, and used it as an avenue of attack.

I don't think anyone hates Ludwig. It's just the "I'm the expert and you know nothing" thing which is now being fed to him. That's all.

702 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:37:17pm

re: #698 Walter L. Newton

The problem, Walter, is that you're still misrepresenting what he said in the first place.

703 oldegeezr  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:37:18pm

re: #22 Cannadian Club Akbar

I know I'm really olde; but can I come along?

704 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:37:18pm

re: #687 LudwigVanQuixote

It's all good.

Cato and I will likely always be OK because he knows how to debate on an intellectual level. Our tit for tats are fun and invigorating even when I do completely disagree with him.

I can see that you used schizophrenia as a metaphor. Or simile. Did you use the work "like"?

Never mind.

The off-putting part is when you take it beyond the metaphor and bring in the DSM as if your diagnosis of humankind were more than a figure of speech.

Illness As Metaphor by Susan Sontag explores just how insidious such comparisons can become.

705 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:37:53pm

re: #689 Aceofwhat?

I know. I feel like this is unfair...like i should be a few gin-and-tonics gone so that it's a more level playing field...

Like shooting dead fish in a barrel.

706 cliffster  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:38:05pm

re: #683 LudwigVanQuixote

Fair enough.

When I say, "help Ludwig", I'm saying essentially what Cato is saying - that your points can lose value if said alongside something that seems illogical. That's why I say, "help", just expressing the opinion that you'd be better served not invoking "racism" and "pedophilia". Cato says things better than I do. My left brain has my right brain by the short and curlies and rarely lets go.

707 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:38:06pm

re: #693 idioma

When did I say that religion is the only cause of conflict?

When you left out any non-religious cause. That's how this thing called "discussion" works. Just a helpful tip!

708 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:38:16pm

re: #701 Spare O'Lake

That's not reality based thinking. Like it or not, the Walter/Bagua/Ludwig thing has become deeply personal... on both sides.

Its clear to anyone who's really looking.

709 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:38:27pm

re: #696 prairiefire

I'm not trying to be offensive, just telling you what a drab-gray boring atheist would make of it. It's not something that scares me. The only kind of religious experience that scares me is other people thinking they know the will of God (like thinking women should wear certain clothing) and then go out and try to inflict that on others.

Other than that, I know that the human mind is a funny place.

Oh, and I highly recommend the book Spook, for more on this, tangentially.

710 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:38:42pm

re: #688 Cato the Elder

What unpopulated place did you have in mind? Antarctica?

Gey kakn oyfn yam.

How about Utah? The mormon would welcome it - since it fulfills their prophecy of reuniting the tribes, and there is plenty of desert there. Or Nevada? Why not Alaska? Or the dust-bowl between LA and San Francisco? There is plenty of desert in this world. Plenty of unpopulated land to go around. How about Australian Outback? You know I could go on.

711 ShaunP  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:38:59pm

re: #708 windsagio

That's not reality based thinking. Like it or not, the Walter/Bagua/Ludwig thing has become deeply personal... on both sides.

Its clear to anyone who's really looking.

Truth.

712 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:39:03pm

re: #701 Spare O'Lake

I don't think anyone hates Ludwig. It's just the "I'm the expert and you know nothing" thing which is now being fed to him. That's all.

That's my point here. Mental illness is a serious issue, and randomly using terms like schizophrenic as a debating point just to try to pigeon hole a person or a group lacks any critical thinking skills and for any professional, well, it's very unprofessional.

713 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:39:03pm

re: #704 Cato the Elder

+ for excellent link, thats on the to-buy list :D

714 Bagua  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:39:06pm

re: #708 windsagio

That's not reality based thinking. Like it or not, the Walter/Bagua/Ludwig thing has become deeply personal... on both sides.

Its clear to anyone who's really looking.

You seem determined to play a major role.

715 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:39:43pm

re: #692 Walter L. Newton

I dare you to find a quote of me saying that? You can't and you know it.

Well if you insist from your #550 on the previous thread:

The technology is not viable enough yet. There is no stand alone renewable source that will enable someone to be totally independent of the "grid."

At the NAtional Renewable Energy Lab where I worked, they have been working almost 35 years on renewable technology, and most every scientist there will tell you, big advances have been made, but we are far from the day when all the renewable sources will supply any where near our current needs.

The laboratory has transfered technology to private industry for years, most of the time free. If there was anything out there affordable for the common Joe and Jane, private industry would have already jumped on it and you would be seeing infomercials daily.

If solar and turbines were the answer, or even near the answers, after almost 40 years of scientific research, we would be much closer to the answers.

We are not. It's still in the future.

Hmmm that would seem to be a pretty strong statement that the technology to make viable solar homes off the grid or to deploy wind power is not possible.

It is not just that you lie about what you say, but that you lie so stupidly.

I mean that strikes me as an inability to see reality...

716 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:39:53pm

re: #714 Bagua

"Truth and Justice and all that Good Stuff"

717 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:40:11pm

re: #675 idioma

Thanks for the history lesson, but riddle me this: Why didn't the jews migrate to an unpopulated place? If the goal was to be left alone, and avoid conflict, to live in peace, wouldn't it make more sense than to choose a place immersed in fundamental Islam? What natural resources are there in Israel that makes it so special that people should fight and die over it?

You don't understand the history of Israel.

Sure there is a religious element to the conflict. Now:

What 'uninhabited land' that would support a population was available in the second half of the 1940s?

What do you imagine the role of the Yishuv was in the selection of modern Israel, as a location, in addition to traditional attachment to the area and continuous settlement of it by Jews over a period of thousands of years?

What evidence do you see of 'fundamental Islam' in the region at the time of Israel's founding?

Where the hell do you get the idea that the purpose of Zionism was to 'avoid conflict and be left alone'?

718 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:40:14pm

re: #700 windsagio

heh, my dinging behavior really bothers you doesn't it?

hint: Dings are meaningless!

(well 'largely meaningless' but that doesn't quite carry the force, does it?)

Her post resonated with me because (and this may be wholly unintentional on your part), you occasionally enter some of these conversations with a very innocent tone.

Whereas the dings, which you do not need to defend in isolation, would imply that you have already formed an opinion on the question you are asking.

Just the perception. I may be misstating Silvergirl's post, but that's what it meant to me and I sort of agreed.

719 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:40:26pm

re: #708 windsagio

That's not reality based thinking. Like it or not, the Walter/Bagua/Ludwig thing has become deeply personal... on both sides.

Its clear to anyone who's really looking.

Do you feel left out ? Here, I'll add your name...

Walter/Bagua/Ludwig/Windsagio

... feel better :)

720 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:40:32pm

re: #694 marjoriemoon

The bigot that says Jews and Blacks are evil and deserve to die are speaking honestly, from their viewpoint anyway. Just being "honest" doesn't make you a kind person.

Everyone on this board, E V E R Y O N E has a problem with what you say and how you say it. Not one person agrees with you, even those who share your belief. Yet, you think you're more clever than the rest of us. And even those of us who bicker between ourselves have a hard time tolerating what you say. You demand respect, but you give none.

Take your self-righteous athiesm somewhere else.

You sound honestly hurt. And that is a personal problem. Even if a billion people disagree with evolution, it would still be a fact. if you can't handle it, that's your problem. I never said I was here to be a ditto-head.

721 Silvergirl  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:40:42pm

re: #700 windsagio

heh, my dinging behavior really bothers you doesn't it?

hint: Dings are meaningless!

(well 'largely meaningless' but that doesn't quite carry the force, does it?)

You do seem to invest time in a meaningless activity. Your choice.

722 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:40:55pm

re: #719 Walter L. Newton

But I like you walter! I just hate it when you get on AGW :p

723 SixDegrees  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:41:30pm

Someone certainly seems to be in their manic phase today.

724 Bagua  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:41:31pm

re: #716 windsagio

"Truth and Justice and all that Good Stuff"

Bullshit, it is always personal with you my friend, you comment more about people and how you see their behaviour, and less on the actual issues. And you do this on a very partisan basis.

725 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:41:46pm

re: #693 idioma

When did I say that religion is the only cause of conflict?

Iran? Yes, I'm sure that would have worked out well.

726 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:41:47pm

re: #536 SanFranciscoZionist

Idioma is fine in non-religious conversations. Discussion of religion triggers something.

That may be true, but the religious conversations are all she/he/it will be remembered for.

727 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:41:52pm

re: #710 idioma

How about Utah? The mormon would welcome it - since it fulfills their prophecy of reuniting the tribes, and there is plenty of desert there. Or Nevada? Why not Alaska? Or the dust-bowl between LA and San Francisco? There is plenty of desert in this world. Plenty of unpopulated land to go around. How about Australian Outback? You know I could go on.

"Hello, President Truman? yes, I know you've been a bit busy lately and all the rest of it, but have you considered our proposal to relocate a couple million refugees, who do not speak your language, and whose co-coreligionists you turned back during the war, to immigrate to your country and set up their own nation?"

728 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:42:05pm

re: #701 Spare O'Lake

I don't think anyone hates Ludwig. It's just the "I'm the expert and you know nothing" thing which is now being fed to him. That's all.

Well I only claim expertise on things I have expertise in. I am an expert on physics.

The AGW deniers do know nothing.

Yes, that hurts their feelings.

729 cliffster  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:42:24pm

re: #722 windsagio

But I like you walter! I just hate it when you get on AGW :p

What happens then? Does he become a grumpy old troll?

730 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:43:14pm

re: #718 Aceofwhat?

This goes back a while, she occasionally says these simply awful things and I tend to ding more than alot of people, so she gets a share of that.

As to the other thing, it sounds interesting... what do you mean by

you occasionally enter some of these conversations with a very innocent tone.

I always love talking about myself, so lets get going :D

(note the lack of a sarc tag, thats intentional :P)

731 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:43:35pm

re: #707 Aceofwhat?

When you left out any non-religious cause. That's how this thing called "discussion" works. Just a helpful tip!

Don't patronize me.
I also left out natural disasters as well. Do you want to know why? Because there are plenty of forces that wipe out humans in massive numbers. This world could swallow us whole without skipping a beat. A large rock could fall from the sky and erase us without warning. We don't need religion's help, the body count is high enough as it is. Discussion? I'm sticking to the point.

732 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:43:38pm

re: #699 idioma

Totally worth fighting and killing each other over? Why not move the holy sites, piece by piece, stone by stone, just like the london bridge and be done with it? Take the top six inches of soil, and move the holy land to somewhere more inviting?

"Professor Weinstein, tell me the truth. If there were a scale replica of the Wailing Wall in the Sonoran Desert, could you wail at it?"

733 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:43:43pm

re: #710 idioma

How about Utah? The mormon would welcome it - since it fulfills their prophecy of reuniting the tribes, and there is plenty of desert there. Or Nevada? Why not Alaska? Or the dust-bowl between LA and San Francisco? There is plenty of desert in this world. Plenty of unpopulated land to go around. How about Australian Outback? You know I could go on.

I know you can go right on and drivel yourself into a corner, and I am morally certain you will.

Neither the US nor Australia, and in fact no country in the world, was willing to take in the Jewish refugees from WWII. The only option was "Palestine", where they had 1) a promise of a homeland since the Balfour declaration and 2) legally purchased large amounts of territory since the peaceful Zionist movement began in the nineteenth century.

Your ignorance is such that "waste of pixels" is a kind word for it.

734 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:44:08pm

re: #724 Bagua

Bullshit, it is always personal with you my friend, you comment more about people and how you see their behaviour, and less on the actual issues. And you do this on a very partisan basis.

Can you diagnose projection?

Or did you get that from a Czech blog as well?

735 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:44:37pm

re: #715 LudwigVanQuixote

Hmmm that would seem to be a pretty strong statement that the technology to make viable solar homes off the grid or to deploy wind power is not possible.

It is not just that you lie about what you say, but that you lie so stupidly.

I mean that strikes me as an inability to see reality...

If you read my WHOLE COMMENT, my statement is in combination with the affordability option. And you know what I have been saying over and over a number of times.

And you loose. I never said "Remember, there are no solar houses and there are no wind farms..." like you quoted me.

My comment above in it's whole is the truth. Anecdotal evidence of people being off the grid does not translate to a viable consumer product as of yet.

That was my point.

736 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:44:44pm

re: #720 idioma

You sound honestly hurt. And that is a personal problem. Even if a billion people disagree with evolution, it would still be a fact. if you can't handle it, that's your problem. I never said I was here to be a ditto-head.

this is speculation, but if i were forced to bet, i'd bet that you've offended more atheists than believers today.

Same way that the armadillos have offended more believers than atheists here.

737 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:44:59pm

re: #734 LudwigVanQuixote

Can you diagnose projection?

Or did you get that from a Czech blog as well?

Is that where you learned to diagnose Walter's projection?

738 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:45:09pm

re: #724 Bagua

I'm not your friend, buddy!

*cough*

I just think the intentions are the important part. In most of these debates, we can go back and forth literally forever citing sources the other side doesn't accept. Getting to the root cause of peoples beliefs is more important, and (ever so slightly) more likely to have some actual result.

This is especially the case when someone seems to be arguing in bad faith, or with an intention to disrupt.

739 reine.de.tout  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:45:20pm

re: #717 SanFranciscoZionist

You don't understand the history of Israel.

Sure there is a religious element to the conflict. Now:

What 'uninhabited land' that would support a population was available in the second half of the 1940s?

What do you imagine the role of the Yishuv was in the selection of modern Israel, as a location, in addition to traditional attachment to the area and continuous settlement of it by Jews over a period of thousands of years?

What evidence do you see of 'fundamental Islam' in the region at the time of Israel's founding?

Where the hell do you get the idea that the purpose of Zionism was to 'avoid conflict and be left alone'?

I sometimes think folks should be aware of Nekama's troll hammer.

740 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:45:26pm

re: #717 SanFranciscoZionist

Where the hell do you get the idea that the purpose of Zionism was to 'avoid conflict and be left alone'?

I never said Zionism was about being left alone. But if you wanted to avoid conflict, claiming land in the name of god is not a good way of doing it.

741 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:45:31pm

re: #710 idioma

How about Utah? The mormon would welcome it - since it fulfills their prophecy of reuniting the tribes, and there is plenty of desert there. Or Nevada? Why not Alaska? Or the dust-bowl between LA and San Francisco? There is plenty of desert in this world. Plenty of unpopulated land to go around. How about Australian Outback? You know I could go on.

How many Jews does your addled little brain imagine the United States was going to accept after the war? That's just the FIRST thing that comes to mind.

742 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:45:39pm
743 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:46:11pm

re: #735 Walter L. Newton

This quote of yours is wrong:

There is no stand alone renewable source that will enable someone to be totally independent of the "grid."

It is flat-out wrong, and was demonstrated as such.

744 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:46:48pm

re: #722 windsagio

But I like you walter! I just hate it when you get on AGW :p

I don't think I brought up AGW on this thread. Or was that just a general statement?

Oh... I won't stop bringing up AGW.

745 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:47:30pm

re: #675 idioma

Thanks for the history lesson, but riddle me this: Why didn't the jews migrate to an unpopulated place? If the goal was to be left alone, and avoid conflict, to live in peace, wouldn't it make more sense than to choose a place immersed in fundamental Islam? What natural resources are there in Israel that makes it so special that people should fight and die over it?

Sorry, Walter, Bagua, please lets not and say we did, I just saw this odious troll and need to deal with this fool.

OK First off, it is our land and we never put it up for sale and it was never devoid of Jews. We were just not in political control of the Land again until 1948.

Your arguments are wretchedly disturbing and thoroughly angering.

What you just asked is akin to asking Greeks why they did not just go someplace else rather than deal with the Ottomans.

Really such posts make you an asshole.

746 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:47:43pm

re: #727 Guanxi88

"Hello, President Truman? yes, I know you've been a bit busy lately and all the rest of it, but have you considered our proposal to relocate a couple million refugees, who do not speak your language, and whose co-coreligionists you turned back during the war, to immigrate to your country and set up their own nation?"

Yeah, good thing they chose Palestine instead, because that was clearly a path of little resistance. ////

747 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:48:05pm

re: #744 Walter L. Newton

It was general.

And trust me, I know you'll do whatever you want (we're not that different in that regard :p)

748 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:48:09pm

re: #731 idioma

Don't patronize me.
I also left out natural disasters as well. Do you want to know why? Because there are plenty of forces that wipe out humans in massive numbers. This world could swallow us whole without skipping a beat. A large rock could fall from the sky and erase us without warning. We don't need religion's help, the body count is high enough as it is. Discussion? I'm sticking to the point.

Patronization is an unfortunate symptom of a critical loss of clarity.

But let's get back to it.
1. You need to include non-religious evils to help yourself figure out (not that it appears you could, but one never knows) whether your anecdotes are significant or simply equivalent to the same amount of ills you'd record if you took a random sample of humanity over a similar period.
2. You need to include good that resulted from religion to help yourself figure out what the net total effect might have been.

Doing neither = willfully or ignorantly laying it all at the feet of religion.

749 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:48:17pm

re: #559 idioma

If what I say is true, does it matter whether or not it's mean-spirited? What if I told you that Santa Claus isn't real? If that made you cry would it be any less true? This is kinda like that.

More and more, I'm beginning to get you. You're below the age of 25 and some nun hit you a little too hard with the ruler.

I love how you whip out the club to bash the religious and then quickly throw it to the side, bat your eyelashes and innocently ask what it is you did wrong.

I get you.

750 Bagua  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:48:30pm

re: #738 windsagio

That's what you miss windsagio, most of us here are friends and have been chatting together for years. You are here a couple months and you insist on calling people liars being hostile.

751 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:48:32pm

re: #746 idioma

Yeah, good thing they chose Palestine instead, because that was clearly a path of little resistance. ///

I'd suggest maybe you ought to consider the possibility of relocating to some uninhabited place, as you certainly think it's an excellent way of avoiding strife.

752 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:48:38pm

re: #737 Guanxi88

Is that where you learned to diagnose Walter's projection?

Clever but not so funny. I have claimed repeatedly that I am not a psychiatrist. So far the only person claiming to know this stuff for a fact is Walter and his history with getting facts straight is spotty at best.

But nice try though :)

753 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:48:56pm

re: #725 SanFranciscoZionist

Iran? Yes, I'm sure that would have worked out well.

You said it already: "Where the hell do you get the idea that the purpose of Zionism was to 'avoid conflict and be left alone'?"

754 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:49:00pm

re: #746 idioma

The sad thing, it was. It was the least resistance. It wasn't no resistance. It was the path of least resistance.

You can disagree with the formation of Israel, but know that if you do, it is very hard to make a case for the existence of any state whatsoever.

755 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:49:01pm

re: #740 idioma

I never said Zionism was about being left alone. But if you wanted to avoid conflict, claiming land in the name of god is not a good way of doing it.

The fact that you imagine that's what early Zionists did tells me everything I might have not yet known about your ignorance of the history of the State of Israel.

Read a book and come back.

756 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:49:48pm

re: #752 LudwigVanQuixote

Clever but not so funny. I have claimed repeatedly that I am not a psychiatrist. So far the only person claiming to know this stuff for a fact is Walter and his history with getting facts straight is spotty at best.

But nice try though :)

So, the "projection" thing was another simile or metaphor?

757 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:50:08pm

re: #743 Obdicut

This quote of yours is wrong:

It is flat-out wrong, and was demonstrated as such.

Out of context, it would be. My comment was 5 paragraphs long and was discussing the current affordability of renewable energy for Jane and Joe Doe and lower income families.

maybe I shouldn't have started the comment in that way, but of course I know there are ways to build an off the grid set up.

But like I said in my full comment, it's not to the level of anything that will be viable as a consumer product right now.

758 Bagua  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:50:13pm

re: #745 LudwigVanQuixote

Sorry, Walter, Bagua, please lets not and say we did, I just saw this odious troll and need to deal with this fool.

[...].

Then kindly do me the courtesy of not starting up with me on a personal level. You did the same thing last night and I asked you to leave me alone.

759 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:50:25pm

re: #750 Bagua

Even in Utopia there's myopia

760 Silvergirl  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:50:33pm

re: #730 windsagio

This goes back a while, she occasionally says these simply awful things and I tend to ding more than alot of people, so she gets a share of that.

As to the other thing, it sounds interesting... what do you mean by

I always love talking about myself, so lets get going :D

(note the lack of a sarc tag, thats intentional :P)

Your threshold for "simple awful" is apparently quite low. And once again, if dings are defined by you as meaningless, why the manic downdinging activity? What's funny is that when I first noticed your appearance at LGF one evening during some exchanges between you and WUB, I thought you were fun and interesting. I'm ready to dismiss you as highly partisan and annoying, but I don't enjoy writing people off.

761 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:50:41pm

re: #750 Bagua

That's what you miss windsagio, most of us here are friends and have been chatting together for years. You are here a couple months and you insist on calling people liars being hostile.

Ummm Bagua, Charles has noted how much you lie about certain things and chastised you for it.

762 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:50:54pm

Off-topic, sorta, I'll note that the tone here on LGF has been a lot better than it has been for a while now. Everybody's remembered that we're all chummy, more or less, and that none of this means anything in the end.

763 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:51:32pm

re: #756 Guanxi88

So, the "projection" thing was another simile or metaphor?

Ahh piss off you too.

764 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:51:44pm

re: #732 SanFranciscoZionist

"Professor Weinstein, tell me the truth. If there were a scale replica of the Wailing Wall in the Sonoran Desert, could you wail at it?"

So, in order for a few million people to play make-believe you are willing to let the world continue to endure this conflict, as the bombs get bigger, and the stakes get higher, you let the world burn so that people can run around wearing funny hats and claiming absolute knowledge without evidence? Is there no alternative? Could the world do without a Mecca? Without a wailing wall? Thousands of religions are no longer practiced, why is Judaism special?

765 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:52:22pm

re: #762 Guanxi88

Off-topic, sorta, I'll note that the tone here on LGF has been a lot better than it has been for a while now. Everybody's remembered that we're all chummy, more or less, and that none of this means anything in the end.

re: #763 LudwigVanQuixote

Ahh piss off you too.

See what I mean? A lot better than it has been.

766 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:52:26pm

re: #758 Bagua

Then kindly do me the courtesy of not starting up with me on a personal level. You did the same thing last night and I asked you to leave me alone.

Did you get that from a Czech blog too :)

767 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:52:29pm

re: #730 windsagio

This goes back a while, she occasionally says these simply awful things and I tend to ding more than alot of people, so she gets a share of that.

As to the other thing, it sounds interesting... what do you mean by

I always love talking about myself, so lets get going :D

(note the lack of a sarc tag, thats intentional :P)

Oh, then let's talk about you!

(although i have only found SG to be honestly attempting to make a point...so i gently disagree with you there. maybe i was sick on the days where she got "awful")

back to you!

i think you work hard at keeping a light and neutral tone, and i generally appreciate it. makes it easier to debate without arguing with you.

when you ding, i'm guessing there is something specific that led you to do so.

you often don't enter a conversation with a specific, like "hey, whoah, what did THIS mean" so it can occasionally appear that you sekritly have a sizeable issue with a particular dude or argument but aren't willing to engage it.

note i'm saying "can appear" because i in no way wish to ascribe to knowing your intentions.

how did i do?

768 Bagua  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:52:48pm

re: #759 windsagio

Whatever, but my experience with you is that you can be quite pleasant and interesting to chat with, which is why I take the liberty of calling you 'my friend'. I don't understand why you choose to take sides and make things personal, which strikes me an unnecessary and partisan.

769 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:52:55pm

re: #749 marjoriemoon

More and more, I'm beginning to get you. You're below the age of 25 and some nun hit you a little too hard with the ruler.

I love how you whip out the club to bash the religious and then quickly throw it to the side, bat your eyelashes and innocently ask what it is you did wrong.

I get you.

On the plus side, does this make me seem more likeable in comparison?//

770 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:53:30pm

re: #753 idioma

You said it already: "Where the hell do you get the idea that the purpose of Zionism was to 'avoid conflict and be left alone'?"

The purpose of Zionism was to be self-governed. Going knocking at the door of anti-Semitic nations begging for some land was not considered as a strategy for some reason.

Where do you get this idea that Jewish refugees in the 1940s could have picked anywhere in the world to go? And if that's what you imagine, why didn't they try it before the Shoah?

771 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:53:55pm

re: #760 Silvergirl

did you read the parenthetical? They're 'nearly meaningless'.

And in fairness maybe I'm taking the wrong tack with you. "Simply awful" is a bit strong, and you're right my threshold for dinging is very low (either direction).

I'm a big fan of trying to avoid bringing emotional energy over from thread to thread. Thus, at the start of us talking today I immediately had a negative reaction, and was a bit nastier than I should have been. For that I apologize.

There's no reason we can't deeply disagree on political points and then go over ot the next thread and have a ton of fun over somehting totally different :D

772 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:54:03pm

re: #752 LudwigVanQuixote

Clever but not so funny. I have claimed repeatedly that I am not a psychiatrist. So far the only person claiming to know this stuff for a fact is Walter and his history with getting facts straight is spotty at best.

But nice try though :)

I do know what I am talking about in regards to diagnosing schizophrenia and a lot more about the subject. I have worked with two experts on the topic, a number of organizations, spent a lot of time with the foundational material in regards to a pioneer of the psychotherapeutic methods and a number of "famous" schizophrenic patients.

I know the subject.

773 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:54:23pm

re: #733 Cato the Elder

The only option was "Palestine", where they had 1) a promise of a homeland since the Balfour declaration and 2) legally purchased large amounts of territory since the peaceful Zionist movement began in the nineteenth century.
.

And the world lived happily ever after... oh wait...

774 prairiefire  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:54:26pm

re: #709 Obdicut

No offense taken, I asked the questions. I know a few agnostics but their such squishes./ I haven't talked to an Atheist in a long while.
Your wedding sounds like it will be fun. I bet you guys will be in the society pages!

775 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:54:49pm
776 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:54:55pm

re: #760 Silvergirl

Your threshold for "simple awful" is apparently quite low. And once again, if dings are defined by you as meaningless, why the manic downdinging activity? What's funny is that when I first noticed your appearance at LGF one evening during some exchanges between you and WUB, I thought you were fun and interesting. I'm ready to dismiss you as highly partisan and annoying, but I don't enjoy writing people off.

i've never seen you be awful either...i doubt it's a fair characterization but i'm usually willing to be proven wrong.

777 Silvergirl  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:55:34pm

re: #771 windsagio

did you read the parenthetical? They're 'nearly meaningless'.

And in fairness maybe I'm taking the wrong tack with you. "Simply awful" is a bit strong, and you're right my threshold for dinging is very low (either direction).

I'm a big fan of trying to avoid bringing emotional energy over from thread to thread. Thus, at the start of us talking today I immediately had a negative reaction, and was a bit nastier than I should have been. For that I apologize.

There's no reason we can't deeply disagree on political points and then go over ot the next thread and have a ton of fun over somehting totally different :D

Extending my hand. Shake it, kiss it, fist bump, high five as you will.

778 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:55:46pm

re: #733 Cato the Elder

I know you can go right on and drivel yourself into a corner, and I am morally certain you will.

Neither the US nor Australia, and in fact no country in the world, was willing to take in the Jewish refugees from WWII. The only option was "Palestine", where they had 1) a promise of a homeland since the Balfour declaration and 2) legally purchased large amounts of territory since the peaceful Zionist movement began in the nineteenth century.

Your ignorance is such that "waste of pixels" is a kind word for it.

Well, Uganda was offered. Yea, that would have worked out just dandy.

Israel is our homeland. There's the answer. The French have France, the Germans have Germany, etc. We have Israel. Not sure why that's so difficult for some to understand.

779 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:56:12pm

re: #638 Dragon_Lady

It has been there all along. It's just that the internet and modern non-journalist media makes it much easier for the wacky stuff to be publicized at large, or searched for and found.

780 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:56:34pm

re: #755 SanFranciscoZionist

The fact that you imagine that's what early Zionists did tells me everything I might have not yet known about your ignorance of the history of the State of Israel.

Read a book and come back.

Indeed. Zionism was and still is a largely secular movement. Which is why the Haredi do not recognize the government that protects and defends their homeland.

But explaining that to Idiota is like elucidating Fermat's Last Theorem to a two-headed tadpole.

781 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:56:38pm

re: #757 Walter L. Newton

The statement was wrong, Walter. Maybe you phrased it badly, but it's coherent on its own, and the context does not change it. It's at odds with other things you wrote in that paragraph, yes, but it's still wrong. Context doesn't solve demonstrably false statements.

782 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:56:59pm

re: #736 Aceofwhat?

this is speculation, but if i were forced to bet, i'd bet that you've offended more atheists than believers today.

Same way that the armadillos have offended more believers than atheists here.

Did anyone ever get anything important done without first challenging a belief? Every modern comfort that you have in this life comes from people that were not content with knowing less. Religion in it's many forms encourages strongly that people be content without knowing anything more.

783 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:57:01pm

re: #781 Obdicut

The statement was wrong, Walter. Maybe you phrased it badly, but it's coherent on its own, and the context does not change it. It's at odds with other things you wrote in that paragraph, yes, but it's still wrong. Context doesn't solve demonstrably false statements.

Yawn.

784 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:57:49pm

re: #764 idioma

So, in order for a few million people to play make-believe you are willing to let the world continue to endure this conflict, as the bombs get bigger, and the stakes get higher, you let the world burn so that people can run around wearing funny hats and claiming absolute knowledge without evidence? Is there no alternative? Could the world do without a Mecca? Without a wailing wall? Thousands of religions are no longer practiced, why is Judaism special?

OMG, do you know anything about history?

Where do you think the Jews can set up shop where they won't be rounded up and murdered? Where have they lived in all of history that this hasn't happened? At least we have our own homeland to live in and can justify our existence there.

785 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:57:57pm

re: #767 Aceofwhat?

Lol, great :p

I'd make a division between understanding the context of various posts and discussions, and carrying a ton of emotional energy over into the new discussion.

Alot of these ongoing discussions have a ton of hidden context and internal references (the AGW fight is patient zero for this). It would be dishonest to pretend that these context's didn't exist (altho sometimes the best of us miss some and have to be reminded, as per the 'pedophile' thing).

786 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:58:24pm

re: #741 SanFranciscoZionist

How many Jews does your addled little brain imagine the United States was going to accept after the war? That's just the FIRST thing that comes to mind.

How many Jews live in America today? More than in Israel? Your petty insults and little weight to your featherweight argument.

787 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:58:40pm

re: #772 Walter L. Newton

I do know what I am talking about in regards to diagnosing schizophrenia and a lot more about the subject. I have worked with two experts on the topic, a number of organizations, spent a lot of time with the foundational material in regards to a pioneer of the psychotherapeutic methods and a number of "famous" schizophrenic patients.

I know the subject.

And you know what Walter maybe that is all true. And if it was and you actually had something worth saying, you could have pointed out how my calling these religious nuts schizophrenic did not meet the definition in some interesting and clinical way. Someone with actual expertise might have tried opening with knowledge.

So you see, I am sure that for whatever reason you have an interest in this, and that is all good, but you are no expert and you certainly never open with any facts.

Further your very long history of confabulating facts with bullshit has come here to bite you in the ass.

Frankly you claim so much knowledge about so much and get so many very basic things wrong - and then you play such insipid word games rather than ever talking facts, that I would have difficulty believing you on pretty much any technical topic.

So short form, you think I misapplied the definition.

Good for you.

I don't care.

If someone I would find respectable can tell me where I went astray then I would gladly take it as a learning experience.

788 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:58:45pm

re: #782 idioma

Did anyone ever get anything important done without first challenging a belief? Every modern comfort that you have in this life comes from people that were not content with knowing less. Religion in it's many forms encourages strongly that people be content without knowing anything more.

That's an awful lot of religions to be categorizing in one sentence.

789 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:58:55pm

re: #782 idioma

Did anyone ever get anything important done without first challenging a belief? Every modern comfort that you have in this life comes from people that were not content with knowing less. Religion in it's many forms encourages strongly that people be content without knowing anything more.

challenging = offending? small vocabularies are sad.

And why does religion encourage such a thing?

790 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:59:26pm

re: #777 Silvergirl

Hmm. What does a gentleman do?

(and cool :D)

791 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:59:44pm

re: #785 windsagio

you had me at #771. i updinged. good stuff.

792 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 1:59:59pm

re: #790 windsagio

Hmm. What does a gentleman do?

(and cool :D)

He prefers blondes, or so they say. (leaves more brunettes for cads like me)

793 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:00:13pm

re: #786 idioma

So the Jews that the US turned away at the ports, sending them back to Europe, and often to enslavement and death, should have naturally just picked up after the war-- if they were lucky enough to survive, and tried their luck again?

This is getting close to GAZE territory, man.

794 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:00:39pm

re: #745 LudwigVanQuixote

Sorry, Walter, Bagua, please lets not and say we did, I just saw this odious troll and need to deal with this fool.

OK First off, it is our land and we never put it up for sale and it was never devoid of Pastafarians. We were just not in political control of the Land again until 2006.

Your arguments are wretchedly disturbing and thoroughly angering.

What you just asked is akin to asking Palestinians why they did not just go someplace else rather than deal with the Jews.

Really such posts make you an asshole.

FTFY

795 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:00:42pm

re: #792 Guanxi88

Well I do think that Denmark produces the most beautiful women in the world!

796 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:00:49pm

re: #764 idioma

Thousands of religions are no longer practiced, why is Judaism special?

Careful, your real agenda is showing.

797 cliffster  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:00:49pm

re: #782 idioma

Did anyone ever get anything important done without first challenging a belief? Every modern comfort that you have in this life comes from people that were not content with knowing less. Religion in it's many forms encourages strongly that people be content without knowing anything more.

It is the opiate of the masses, after all. I knew it! You're a Marxist!

798 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:00:56pm

re: #787 LudwigVanQuixote

There isn't a lot of utility in saying people act like schizophrenics, in my opinion, but it's nothing to clutch pearls over, either.

799 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:01:14pm

re: #736 Aceofwhat?

The way some of these threads go down the tubes does make me want to curl up in a ball sometimes though...

800 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:01:36pm

re: #786 idioma

How many Jews live in America today? More than in Israel? Your petty insults and little weight to your featherweight argument.

Ah, when cornered, the wounded troll escapes to a different time period. Booo.

801 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:01:38pm

re: #796 Cato the Elder

His real agenda is wicking you off :p

Since atheism didn't take, going after Israel is a good second try.

802 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:01:48pm

re: #795 windsagio

Well I do think that Denmark produces the most beautiful women in the world!

Eh, but there's just something about a brunette. I think it's the hair-color.

803 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:01:58pm

re: #786 idioma

How many Jews live in America today? More than in Israel? Your petty insults and little weight to your featherweight argument.

Umm excuse me, So now America is our historic homeland?

Son, are you on drugs?

804 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:02:04pm

re: #801 windsagio

I agree, sadly.

805 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:02:09pm

re: #755 SanFranciscoZionist

The fact that you imagine that's what early Zionists did tells me everything I might have not yet known about your ignorance of the history of the State of Israel.

Read a book and come back.

Don't tell her to read a book. She won't read a book. She won't look at websites. She has an agenda and she's sticking to it.

We went over this a month or so ago. She should have read the links and books provided to her, but obviously refused that too, because she's pushing the same old rhetoric.

And with that, I gotta jet. Hope to catch up to you cats later.

806 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:02:50pm

re: #787 LudwigVanQuixote

And you know what Walter maybe that is all true. And if it was and you actually had something worth saying, you could have pointed out how my calling these religious nuts schizophrenic did not meet the definition in some interesting and clinical way. Someone with actual expertise might have tried opening with knowledge.

So you see, I am sure that for whatever reason you have an interest in this, and that is all good, but you are no expert and you certainly never open with any facts.

Further your very long history of confabulating facts with bullshit has come here to bite you in the ass.

Frankly you claim so much knowledge about so much and get so many very basic things wrong - and then you play such insipid word games rather than ever talking facts, that I would have difficulty believing you on pretty much any technical topic.

So short form, you think I misapplied the definition.

Good for you.

I don't care.

If someone I would find respectable can tell me where I went astray then I would gladly take it as a learning experience.

Someone respectable in regards to the subject of schizophrenia did. You just missed it. I'm so sorry. I don't care if you don't believe that I have expert knowledge of the subject, I do.

And it wouldn't have matter how I would have presented your hyperbole about diagnosing schizophrenia to you, you would not have accepted anything I had to say on the subject.

Doesn't stop me from making my point.

807 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:03:49pm

re: #799 oaktree

The way some of these threads go down the tubes does make me want to curl up in a ball sometimes though...

i'm occasionally a bigger reason why, so i will not throw the rock through my glass house!

808 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:04:58pm

re: #801 windsagio

His real agenda is wicking you off :p

Since atheism didn't take, going after Israel is a good second try.

It's ok. Now that we have LVQ back on the scent, we can stand back and watch his particular talent be put to maximum use!

Go get 'im, Ludwig!

(i mean that in the nicest way possible...)

809 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:05:09pm

re: #806 Walter L. Newton

Someone respectable in regards to the subject of schizophrenia did. You just missed it. I'm so sorry. I don't care if you don't believe that I have expert knowledge of the subject, I do.

And it wouldn't have matter how I would have presented your hyperbole about diagnosing schizophrenia to you, you would not have accepted anything I had to say on the subject.

Doesn't stop me from making my point.

You have yet to make a point other than you disagree. Further, if you did try to make a point, I would expect you to have something more than a pathetic semantic game and something more substantive to back it up. As to the someone else, if I missed it, please point me to the post.

810 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:05:24pm

re: #807 Aceofwhat?

i'm occasionally a bigger reason why, so i will not throw the rock through my glass house!

Save your rocks for that SOB over there. Send some business the glazier's way, why dontcha?

811 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:05:32pm

re: #786 idioma

How many Jews live in America today? More than in Israel? Your petty insults and little weight to your featherweight argument.

You think "it's" is the possessive of "it". Who's the featherweight?

And for your information, the number of Jews living in Israel surpassed the Jewish population of America several years ago.

Grin and bear it. Or not. You have revealed yourself for what you are.

812 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:05:35pm

re: #708 windsagio

That's not reality based thinking. Like it or not, the Walter/Bagua/Ludwig thing has become deeply personal... on both sides.

Its clear to anyone who's really looking.

What has become clear to me is that you are an attention whore who has little or nothing of substance to say.

813 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:06:05pm

re: #805 marjoriemoon

Don't tell her to read a book. She won't read a book. She won't look at websites. She has an agenda and she's sticking to it.

We went over this a month or so ago. She should have read the links and books provided to her, but obviously refused that too, because she's pushing the same old rhetoric.

And with that, I gotta jet. Hope to catch up to you cats later.

He's a her? Huh. I figured only a guy could be this obtuse.

Of course, now i'm wondering if that's sexist or just pattern recognition...

help...

814 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:06:49pm

re: #787 LudwigVanQuixote

If someone I would find respectable can tell me where I went astray then I would gladly take it as a learning experience.

Try the Sontag book. Seriously.

815 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:07:05pm

re: #803 LudwigVanQuixote

My grandfather disagreed with the founding of Israel. He was Jewish. He thought that it would make it easier for enemies to destroy us, and that we were going about the foundation of it wrong.

However, he wouldn't make any of these weak-ass arguments. Israel has as much validity as any other state-- and more, because it's a modern democratic state.

816 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:07:25pm

re: #806 Walter L. Newton

Someone respectable in regards to the subject of schizophrenia did. You just missed it. I'm so sorry. I don't care if you don't believe that I have expert knowledge of the subject, I do.

And it wouldn't have matter how I would have presented your hyperbole about diagnosing schizophrenia to you, you would not have accepted anything I had to say on the subject.

Doesn't stop me from making my point.

Actually I need to correct myself.

I have expert knowledge about schizophrenia and other related topics. I am not an expert. Two different things. But, because of my expert knowledge, I know what I am talking about in regards to those topics.

817 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:07:41pm

re: #814 Cato the Elder

Ludwig, the Sontag book is quite excellent. I can vouch for it.

In language as well as argument.

818 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:08:14pm

re: #780 Cato the Elder

Indeed. Zionism was and still is a largely secular movement. Which is why the Haredi do not recognize the government that protects and defends their homeland.

But explaining that to Idiota is like elucidating Fermat's Last Theorem to a two-headed tadpole.

Not only secular, but originally an essentially socialist movement.

819 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:08:32pm

re: #805 marjoriemoon

Don't tell her to read a book. She won't read a book. She won't look at websites. She has an agenda and she's sticking to it.

We went over this a month or so ago. She should have read the links and books provided to her, but obviously refused that too, because she's pushing the same old rhetoric.

And with that, I gotta jet. Hope to catch up to you cats later.

Welcome to science eduction.

On a more serious note, look this person has a grudge against religion for some reason and is confabulating his delusions with realities of history and culture.

So there are purely ignorant blow hards on the web looking for attention. Go figure...

The short form is that We have written the truth multiple times and the person will not acknowledge the flaws in his/her own arguments - even their own internal inconsistencies, so what do we do with the troll?

Israel is very near and dear to my heart.

It is to yours as well.

When does an endless stream of ignorant lies become enough?

820 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:08:53pm

re: #748 Aceofwhat?

Patronization is an unfortunate symptom of a critical loss of clarity.

But let's get back to it.
1. You need to include non-religious evils to help yourself figure out (not that it appears you could, but one never knows) whether your anecdotes are significant or simply equivalent to the same amount of ills you'd record if you took a random sample of humanity over a similar period.
2. You need to include good that resulted from religion to help yourself figure out what the net total effect might have been.

Doing neither = willfully or ignorantly laying it all at the feet of religion.

Okay Ace, I guess you are right. Religion is a positive force on humanity, so long as you don't include the genocide, rape, torture, murder, blocking of scientific research, abuse of children, spreading of disease, slavery, oppression of minorities and women, wars, and terrorism.

Yep, aside from those things, religion is alright!

Walter - you'll jump in here feet first and say that I'm stroking with a broad brush. Let me save you the trouble. Yes, I know that the Oopaloompa worshiping people on the mountain of Candyland do not do those things. I know that even though China's occupation of Tibet continues that Buddhist are not strapping bombs to their chests. I get that. But I'm talking about the big three here: Jesus, Mohammed, and Moses. The god of the desert has made a real mess here and you know it too. Don't sugar coat it, don't ignore it. Don't play favorites. The fact is that this world has an awful mess and real consequences because some people wait for a messiah, some people wait for him to come back, and some people pray five times a day in hopes that they will be spared.

821 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:09:11pm

BBIAB - need to run out to the store.

822 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:09:23pm

re: #818 Spare O'Lake

Not only secular, but originally an essentially socialist movement.

ZOMFG! You're right!

Kinda puts paid to Idiota's entire argument, but she won't let that stop her, I'm certain.

823 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:09:33pm

re: #820 idioma

Okay Ace, I guess you are right. Religion is a positive force on humanity, so long as you don't include the genocide, rape, torture, murder, blocking of scientific research, abuse of children, spreading of disease, slavery, oppression of minorities and women, wars, and terrorism.

Yep, aside from those things, religion is alright!

Walter - you'll jump in here feet first and say that I'm stroking with a broad brush. Let me save you the trouble. Yes, I know that the Oopaloompa worshiping people on the mountain of Candyland do not do those things. I know that even though China's occupation of Tibet continues that Buddhist are not strapping bombs to their chests. I get that. But I'm talking about the big three here: Jesus, Mohammed, and Moses. The god of the desert has made a real mess here and you know it too. Don't sugar coat it, don't ignore it. Don't play favorites. The fact is that this world has an awful mess and real consequences because some people wait for a messiah, some people wait for him to come back, and some people pray five times a day in hopes that they will be spared.

GAZE

824 Neutral President  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:09:59pm

re: #762 Guanxi88

Off-topic, sorta, I'll note that the tone here on LGF has been a lot better than it has been for a while now. Everybody's remembered that we're all chummy, more or less, and that none of this means anything in the end.

I'll believe it when Irish Rose and Sharmuta come back.

825 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:11:08pm

re: #749 marjoriemoon

More and more, I'm beginning to get you. You're below the age of 25 and some nun hit you a little too hard with the ruler.

I love how you whip out the club to bash the religious and then quickly throw it to the side, bat your eyelashes and innocently ask what it is you did wrong.

I get you.

Ad Hominem. Try again. You know nothing of who I am, my gender, orientation, what I have done, or where I am coming from. You cannot attack my statements directly because they are strongly rooted in reality, so now you attack my personal character with outlandish claims. Classy!

826 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:11:14pm

re: #814 Cato the Elder

Try the Sontag book. Seriously.

Cato, fair enough. Would you believe that I understand and am even sensitive to the point you are trying to make. I have no desire to de-legitimatize people with a false diagnosis.

Now seriously, in the context of the conversation and based on the definitions of schizophrenia given, how do the sorts of religious nuts who are clear delusional that we are talking about not fit into the definition of schizophrenia?

Serious question.

827 cliffster  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:11:20pm

re: #820 idioma

Okay Ace, I guess you are right. Religion is a positive force on humanity, so long as you don't include the genocide, rape, torture, murder, blocking of scientific research, abuse of children, spreading of disease, slavery, oppression of minorities and women, wars, and terrorism.

Yep, aside from those things, religion is alright!

You seem like a real jackass to me. Just an observation

828 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:11:30pm

re: #764 idioma

So, in order for a few million people to play make-believe you are willing to let the world continue to endure this conflict, as the bombs get bigger, and the stakes get higher, you let the world burn so that people can run around wearing funny hats and claiming absolute knowledge without evidence? Is there no alternative? Could the world do without a Mecca? Without a wailing wall? Thousands of religions are no longer practiced, why is Judaism special?

You are fucking delusional. People, religious or no, have a right to self-determination, and a fair shot at life and liberty. You appear to be unable to understand the State of Israel as a political, as opposed to religious undertaking. That's the basic problem here--you're offering fantasy solutions to a real-world political conflict.

829 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:11:31pm

re: #819 LudwigVanQuixote

Welcome to science eduction.

On a more serious note, look this person has a grudge against religion for some reason and is confabulating his delusions with realities of history and culture.

So there are purely ignorant blow hards on the web looking for attention. Go figure...

The short form is that We have written the truth multiple times and the person will not acknowledge the flaws in his/her own arguments - even their own internal inconsistencies, so what do we do with the troll?

Israel is very near and dear to my heart.

It is to yours as well.

When does an endless stream of ignorant lies become enough?

Now this is a troll, i agree. It's the spite in addition to the ignorance, for me, that merits the label.

830 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:11:35pm

re: #751 Guanxi88

I'd suggest maybe you ought to consider the possibility of relocating to some uninhabited place, as you certainly think it's an excellent way of avoiding strife.

What makes you think my goal is to avoid conflict?

831 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:12:53pm

re: #47 RogueOne

This is what happens when you live in a society with a 1st amendment guarantee of free speech. They are entitled to spout whatever nonsense they feel like just like we're entitled to make fun of them for those same views. Calling them the american taliban is going a bit far. Picketing businesses and enterprises we disagree with is an american tradition. When they start dragging people into the streets and beheading them for violating what they consider their religious duties then you can call them taliban. Don't lessen the term.

RogueOne, you never miss an opportunity to whitewash.

832 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:12:53pm

re: #830 idioma

What makes you think my goal is to avoid conflict?

Well, if it's good enough for the Jews, ought it not be good enough for you?

833 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:12:54pm

re: #830 idioma

And there we have it. Admission of trollhood.

834 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:13:21pm

re: #820 idioma

yep. Mother Theresa was just a myth. no one has ever helped anyone in the name of god, anywhere.

goood one.

835 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:13:23pm

re: #754 Obdicut

The sad thing, it was. It was the least resistance. It wasn't no resistance. It was the path of least resistance.

You can disagree with the formation of Israel, but know that if you do, it is very hard to make a case for the existence of any state whatsoever.

My argument isn't for or against the formation of Israel, my problem is that the rest of the world has to deal with a conflict rooted in Make-believe. Should the whole world have to worry about a soon-to-be nuclear conflict because various people with funny hats can't agree on which imaginary friend they like more?

836 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:14:18pm

re: #830 idioma

What makes you think my goal is to avoid conflict?

you must be religious, then, if your goal is conflict.

837 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:14:22pm

re: #812 Spare O'Lake

What has become clear to me is that you are an attention whore who has little or nothing of substance to say.

Oh Spare, the tribalism!

838 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:14:58pm

re: #824 ArchangelMichael

I'll believe it when Irish Rose and Sharmuta come back.

Irish Rose delinked LGF the other day. Her five minutes of sainthood ran out. I don't think she'll be back.

839 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:15:02pm

re: #833 Cato the Elder

And there we have it. Admission of trollhood.

antisemitic trollhood, too. where's Killgore? we need the right marinade...

840 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:15:04pm

re: #770 SanFranciscoZionist

The purpose of Zionism was to be self-governed. Going knocking at the door of anti-Semitic nations begging for some land was not considered as a strategy for some reason.

Where do you get this idea that Jewish refugees in the 1940s could have picked anywhere in the world to go? And if that's what you imagine, why didn't they try it before the Shoah?

Why not just de-convert and integrate into culture of your host country? Isn't that what we prefer Muslims do when they move to America?

841 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:15:53pm

re: #838 Cato the Elder

Irish Rose delinked LGF the other day. Her five minutes of sainthood ran out. I don't think she'll be back.

what happened? or is this not the time/place? all i knew is she wasn't posting here anymore.

842 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:16:07pm

re: #840 idioma

Why not just de-convert and integrate into culture of your host country? Isn't that what we prefer Muslims do when they move to America?

nope

843 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:16:19pm

re: #835 idioma

It's not rooted in make-believe. It's rooted in Jews being slaughtered over and over.

That really happened.

844 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:16:20pm

re: #840 idioma

Why not just de-convert and integrate into culture of your host country? Isn't that what we prefer Muslims do when they move to America?

Bullshit.

Troll-ass bullshit.

845 Bagua  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:16:32pm

re: #838 Cato the Elder

Irish Rose delinked LGF the other day. Her five minutes of sainthood ran out. I don't think she'll be back.

Delinked? You mean from her blogroll?

846 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:16:35pm

re: #840 idioma

Why not just de-convert and integrate into culture of your host country? Isn't that what we prefer Muslims do when they move to America?


And so you think maybe every Jew was observant prior to the Shoah? The assimilated were especially targeted, precisely because they were hiding who they "really" were.

847 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:16:50pm

re: #784 marjoriemoon

OMG, do you know anything about history?

Where do you think the Jews can set up shop where they won't be rounded up and murdered? Where have they lived in all of history that this hasn't happened? At least we have our own homeland to live in and can justify our existence there.

Do Americans round up Jews? New York has many "Little-#country#" with all of the culture, food, and traditions left intact more or less. Why not live in America and practice Judaism here? Why do any belief systems need to have a state? What state sponsors Pastafarians?

848 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:17:09pm

re: #835 idioma

My argument isn't for or against the formation of Israel, my problem is that the rest of the world has to deal with a conflict rooted in Make-believe. Should the whole world have to worry about a soon-to-be nuclear conflict because various people with funny hats can't agree on which imaginary friend they like more?

oh - since you put it so logically, i now believe that it's ISRAEL's fault that Iran wants to wipe them off the map.

can't believe that wasn't clear to me before.

849 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:17:31pm

re: #825 idioma

Ad Hominem. Try again. You know nothing of who I am, my gender, orientation, what I have done, or where I am coming from. You cannot attack my statements directly because they are strongly rooted in reality, so now you attack my personal character with outlandish claims. Classy!


First off simply calling something ad hominem does not make it untrue.

Further,

NO that is not ad hominem. Ad hominem would go something like this troll.

YOur vile hatred of all things religious has caused you to completely discount history and culture in a complex discussion that is way over your stupid, arrogant and pathetic mind's ability to grasp.

Amongst the things that you are too stupid, ignorant, arrogant and foolish to grasp is the fact that you are completely invalidating the struggles of a people to regain their home for over two thousand years, which they miraculously achieved - in order to sound oh so clever on a blog.

What you have just indicated is that your pathetic ego is more important t you tan all of those good people through all of those ages and that even looking at the truths that would belie your insulting and false statements is too much for you.

This makes you into a petty and deluded snot with a missappreciation of his own insignificance.

850 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:17:33pm

re: #841 Aceofwhat?

what happened? or is this not the time/place? all i knew is she wasn't posting here anymore.

Major butthurt.

re: #845 Bagua

Delinked? You mean from her blogroll?

Yep.

851 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:19:34pm

re: #813 Aceofwhat?

He's a her? Huh. I figured only a guy could be this obtuse.

Of course, now i'm wondering if that's sexist or just pattern recognition...

help...

I'm guessing a she. Hard to tell. I also like to use the feminine pronoun when one seems gender-less because of the tendency to use the masculine out of habit... It's a feminist thing on my part :)

852 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:20:40pm

re: #814 Cato the Elder

Try the Sontag book. Seriously.

Because I think you did not see it because of the need to troll roast...

I really would respect your opinions and I wish to repose the question.

Cato, fair enough. Would you believe that I understand and am even sensitive to the point you are trying to make. I have no desire to de-legitimatize people with a false diagnosis.

Now seriously, in the context of the conversation and based on the definitions of schizophrenia given, how do the sorts of religious nuts who are clear delusional that we are talking about not fit into the definition of schizophrenia?

Serious question.

853 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:21:07pm

re: #838 Cato the Elder

Irish Rose delinked LGF the other day. Her five minutes of sainthood ran out. I don't think she'll be back.

Wow. I didn't know that. I wasn't a poster while she was around but she was here forever.

854 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:21:10pm

re: #773 idioma

And the world lived happily ever after... oh wait...

Honey, can you TRY to understand that there are some awful conflicts that are not solely the fault of religious conflict? That people fight over land, and water, and food, and trade routes, and all kinds of other stuff?

855 Bagua  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:21:14pm

re: #835 idioma

My argument isn't for or against the formation of Israel, my problem is that the rest of the world has to deal with a conflict rooted in Make-believe. Should the whole world have to worry about a soon-to-be nuclear conflict because various people with funny hats can't agree on which imaginary friend they like more?

One can remove religion from the equation entirely and still have the reality of thousands of years of continuous Jewish habitation of Israel. The 'religious delusion' argument is entirely specious for this reason. Jews are united as a nation and a people. The religious beliefs are in addition to this, and not universal.

856 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:21:35pm

re: #835 idioma

My argument isn't for or against the formation of Israel, my problem is that the rest of the world has to deal with a conflict rooted in Make-believe. Should the whole world have to worry about a soon-to-be nuclear conflict because various people with funny hats can't agree on which imaginary friend they like more?

What makes you think that if the Jews were in Utah, it would have been or would be today any different? It wasn't different anywhere they went.

How many times do people have to say this to you before it sinks in?

Or maybe that agenda you're hanging on to just feels right.

857 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:21:44pm

re: #789 Aceofwhat?

challenging = offending? small vocabularies are sad.

And why does religion encourage such a thing?

Because religion insists that it has the answers to the big questions:

"Why are we here?"
"What is the nature of the universe?"
"What does it mean to be alive, and to die?"
"What happens when we die?"

Before Islam, the middle east was advancing human progress and an amazing rate. They had begun studying advanced math and physics, they had given berth to plated coins, stock trade, written language, lithography, chemistry, electricity, and even steam engines. All of that changed when the "prophet" Mohammed came around and told people that the guy in the sky wanted them to pray five times a day. People changed their priorities and the progress stopped.

We should be inhabiting other worlds by now, instead we're arguing on a blog post about American Taliban.

858 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:21:52pm

re: #828 SanFranciscoZionist

You are fucking delusional. People, religious or no, have a right to self-determination, and a fair shot at life and liberty. You appear to be unable to understand the State of Israel as a political, as opposed to religious undertaking. That's the basic problem here--you're offering fantasy solutions to a real-world political conflict.

Well said.

859 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:22:43pm

re: #796 Cato the Elder

Careful, your real agenda is showing.

Why is any belief system special? Tell me, I want to know.

860 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:22:55pm

re: #837 WindUpBird

I think its beyond tribalism to outright dislike >>

861 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:24:15pm

re: #797 cliffster

It is the opiate of the masses, after all. I knew it! You're a Marxist!

Hahaha! I like that, Upding!

For the record it's the placebo of the masses. Opiates get the job done!

862 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:24:38pm

re: #786 idioma

How many Jews live in America today? More than in Israel? Your petty insults and little weight to your featherweight argument.

About equal populations. You know where America's came from? You know where Israel's came from?

You can't seriously think that settlement in the United States was an option, unless you know nothing at all about Jewish history in the 20th century.

863 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:24:42pm

re: #803 LudwigVanQuixote

Umm excuse me, So now America is our historic homeland?

Son, are you on drugs?

Why does any religion need a "historic homeland"?

864 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:25:11pm

re: #811 Cato the Elder

You think "it's" is the possessive of "it". Who's the featherweight?

And for your information, the number of Jews living in Israel surpassed the Jewish population of America several years ago.

Grin and bear it. Or not. You have revealed yourself for what you are.

What am I?

865 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:25:12pm

re: #852 LudwigVanQuixote

I'm going to have to get back to you on that. And I will. Real life is calling and I need to go crap out some troll-meat. Gamey, but runs right through you like bratwurst and sauerkraut.

866 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:25:38pm

re: #862 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm so sorry, but I can't resist (after all you're a teacher :p)

do you mean American's and Israeli's?


I don't know where Americas come from :p

867 What, me worry?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:25:38pm

Honestly, I've tolerated all I can from this little anti-Semitic bitch. I wish Charles would dump her.

868 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:25:50pm

re: #859 idioma

Why is any belief system special? Tell me, I want to know.

Look Dudette or Duder or whatever you are.

I would point out that when SFZ is calling you fucking delusional you have gone into a special territory.

Now I usually like to argue things based on the merits of arguments (or lack there of) presented, but you really are not going to listen to reason.

At this point you are likely two mics (as in micrometers) away from the stick.

I personally would love it if there were fewer idiots on this blog, so I am commenting for scientific purposes.

There are after all still those who deny Darwin.

869 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:25:56pm

re: #840 idioma

Why not just de-convert and integrate into culture of your host country? Isn't that what we prefer Muslims do when they move to America?

Israel is a nation created by the United Nations. Have you asked the Palestinians to integrate into the cultures of their host countries - Israel, Jordan and Egypt?

870 ShaunP  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:26:51pm

re: #864 idioma

What am I?

Not sure, but my guess is there's a bridge somewhere left unattended...

871 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:27:08pm

re: #827 cliffster

You seem like a real jackass to me. Just an observation

Ad Hominem.

872 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:27:42pm

re: #871 idioma

Ad Hominem.

You see, that's an ad hominem. You're starting to get the hang of it.

873 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:28:03pm

re: #732 SanFranciscoZionist

"Professor Weinstein, tell me the truth. If there were a scale replica of the Wailing Wall in the Sonoran Desert, could you wail at it?"

I sacrificed some animal crackers at the Stonehenge Replica in Maryville, Washington once.

Not helpful, I know.

874 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:28:05pm

re: #864 idioma

What am I?

A seriously mutated, genetically sterile cross between a concern troll and an anti-Semite.

875 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:28:17pm

re: #828 SanFranciscoZionist

You are fucking delusional. People, religious or no, have a right to self-determination, and a fair shot at life and liberty. You appear to be unable to understand the State of Israel as a political, as opposed to religious undertaking. That's the basic problem here--you're offering fantasy solutions to a real-world political conflict.

Couldn't the people of Israel have the same opportunities in America?

876 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:29:02pm

re: #832 Guanxi88

Well, if it's good enough for the Jews, ought it not be good enough for you?

My conflict here is in words. When there are suicide bombers thrown into the mix, we can try this argument again.

877 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:29:25pm

re: #52 ralphieboy

They seem to be moving out of ther Constitutionally protected rights of speech and association and into active intimidation and harassment. Those are not constitutionally guaranteed rights.

I'm real late in replying, sorry.

As long as they aren't threatening violence or disturbing the peace they're entitled to say and picket what they want. Everyone says they're for free speech...unless someone says something they don't like or someone they don't like says something, then all the sudden there's qualifications and limitations placed on the 1st amendment.

The only quibble I had with some of the comments was comparing them to the taliban. When they start beating women in the street because they have on lipstick or beheading apostates in the town square then you can compare them to the taliban, until then they're exercising rights already paid for by 200+ years of sacrifice.

878 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:29:27pm

re: #863 idioma

Why does any religion need a "historic homeland"?

Because it is not just a religion and never has been.

A jew could become a Bhuddist but still be a Jew.

It's like being Black in that way.

But it is more than that. It is also a national and ethnic heritage.

An Irishman could be born in the Bronx but still be Irish.

It is like being Irish in that way.

Further, you miss that Zionism is at its core a nationalist and not religious movement and that the founders of the modern state of Israel were secular socialists.

Re read that last sentence. You are done. There is no more argument at all on your side because many of the people who founded Israel politically were pretty atheist.

879 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:29:28pm

re: #833 Cato the Elder

And there we have it. Admission of trollhood.

Did you ever say anything that offended anyone?

880 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:29:41pm

re: #875 idioma

Couldn't the people of Israel have the same opportunities in America?

We don't know. FDR didn't let them in, and we're still waiting to hear if Truman would be willing to take in a group of refugee survivors who've been massacred by every government they've ever lived under.

881 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:30:40pm

re: #876 idioma

My conflict here is in words. When there are suicide bombers thrown into the mix, we can try this argument again.

Suicide bombers negate a state and the rights of its people to live in their homeland. I'll keep it in mind.

882 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:30:41pm

re: #857 idioma

Because religion insists that it has the answers to the big questions:

"Why are we here?"
"What is the nature of the universe?"
"What does it mean to be alive, and to die?"
"What happens when we die?"

Science does not have the answer to those questions. That does not diminish science. Science never claimed to consider those questions in the first place, nor is it impossible to coexist with the desire to ask those questions.

And the harem system, not Islam, is the biggest single factor in the decline of the folks you're talking about.

883 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:30:42pm

re: #834 Aceofwhat?

yep. Mother Theresa was just a myth. no one has ever helped anyone in the name of god, anywhere.

goood one.

Mother Teresa was a horrible person. She got off on death-bed conversions.

884 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:31:40pm

re: #842 Aceofwhat?

nope

Do you believe that religion deserves some kind of special treatment?

885 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:31:41pm

re: #868 LudwigVanQuixote

I would point out that when SFZ is calling you fucking delusional you have gone into a special territory.

repeated for emphasis.

886 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:31:48pm

re: #840 idioma

Why not just de-convert and integrate into culture of your host country? Isn't that what we prefer Muslims do when they move to America?

I don't. I believe all people have the right to live according to their own culture, or to adopt a new one.

As too 'de-converting and integrating', that was all the rage aming Jews in in Germany in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Weirdly, racial bigotry does not go away just because you become a Lutheran.

Oh, and fuck you too.

887 Bagua  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:32:09pm

re: #875 idioma

Couldn't the people of Israel have the same opportunities in America?

No, they were prevented from coming to America, and most anywhere else. They were fleeing from persecution and had no refuge anywhere in the world. Learn a bit of history is my advice.

888 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:32:20pm

lucky post

889 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:32:21pm

re: #882 Aceofwhat?

for the record, the Golden Age in the Middle East was several hundred years after Mohummad.

890 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:32:34pm

re: #886 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't. I believe all people have the right to live according to their own culture, or to adopt a new one.

As too 'de-converting and integrating', that was all the rage aming Jews in in Germany in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Weirdly, racial bigotry does not go away just because you become a Lutheran.

Oh, and fuck you too.

Absofuckinglutely.

891 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:33:10pm

re: #884 idioma

Do you believe that religion deserves some kind of special treatment?

i believe in the freedom to believe that unicorn blood will grant me everlasting life, so long as I treat others with respect and am a good citizen of the world.

that is, i believe that freedom deserves some kind of special treatment.

892 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:33:24pm

If Israel is going to move to the USA, would it be OK if they got Hawaii?

893 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:33:48pm

re: #883 idioma

Mother Teresa was a horrible person. She got off on death-bed conversions.

repeated for emphasis. just not in a good way.

894 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:34:02pm

re: #876 idioma

My conflict here is in words. When there are suicide bombers thrown into the mix, we can try this argument again.

So because Arabs send suicide bombers to murder Jews in their own land, then Jews have no right to their land?

So does that mean that the US should go back to Britain because there was a war of 1812?

They did attack us yes?

895 windsagio  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:34:48pm

re: #892 Spare O'Lake

I'd imagine that "Kill Haole" day would look alot worse in that case >>

896 Silvergirl  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:34:52pm

re: #873 goddamnedfrank

I sacrificed some animal crackers at the Stonehenge Replica in Maryville, Washington once.

Not helpful, I know.

Maybe not helpful, but at least cool that I've been there too. No animal crackers were sacrificed on my trip. I miss all the fun.

897 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:35:03pm

re: #857 idioma

Because religion insists that it has the answers to the big questions:

Before Islam, the middle east was advancing human progress and an amazing rate. They had begun studying advanced math and physics, they had given berth to plated coins, stock trade, written language, lithography, chemistry, electricity, and even steam engines. All of that changed when the "prophet" Mohammed came around and told people that the guy in the sky wanted them to pray five times a day. People changed their priorities and the progress stopped.
.

That's bullshit. The rise of Islam did not stop progress in the Middle East. Learn history, kid!

898 idioma  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:35:09pm

re: #882 Aceofwhat?

Science does not have the answer to those questions. That does not diminish science. Science never claimed to consider those questions in the first place, nor is it impossible to coexist with the desire to ask those questions.

And the harem system, not Islam, is the biggest single factor in the decline of the folks you're talking about.

Where is your evidence? That is a bold claim.re: #891 Aceofwhat?

i believe in the freedom to believe that unicorn blood will grant me everlasting life, so long as I treat others with respect and am a good citizen of the world.

that is, i believe that freedom deserves some kind of special treatment.

Why do you need to respect a belief that you KNOW for certain is false?

899 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:35:11pm

re: #889 windsagio

for the record, the Golden Age in the Middle East was several hundred years after Mohummad.

harems. they sound like fun but who has the energy to rule with obligations of that magnitude?

900 prairiefire  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:35:45pm

re: #880 Guanxi88

Truman thought creating the nation state of Israel was a better idea.

901 Bagua  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:35:50pm

For the record:

There is no single symptom to determine a diagnosis of schizophrenia, as there is no single symptom particular to it. Without training as a diagnostician, it would be easy to make a misdiagnosis in many cases.

A diagnosis of Schizophrenia can be made if the patient has at least one episode lasting one or more months. It should have at least two symptoms of; hallucinations, delusions, disorganized things, and flat emotions.
Or if the delusions are particularly bizarre.

Or, In the absence of an episode, we need at least half a year of symptoms such as talking to one’s self, withdrawal or incoherent speech, among others, along with social deterioration.

A religious person would not qualify just because they had magical “delusions” consistent with their faith. Especially if it were normal beliefs/delusions within that particular group. However, a symptom might be that they are Christian and consider themselves Moses, or Muslim and consider themselves Mohammed, talk to goats and plants, and so on.

Also note that the 'delusion' is not having a wrong opinion or a religious or spiritual belief, it is generally quite bizarre, even to people of similar faith.

902 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:35:51pm

re: #56 Obdicut

What do you think of their 'warfare' map?

Given that there have been murders of abortion doctors, firebombing of clinics, etc, why is 'beheading people' the litmus test?

Because they are exercising their constitutional rights of free speech. I don't like it when the westboro church people show up to military funerals and I hate it when Code Pink shows up at recruiter stations but that doesn't matter. What matters is they have a right guaranteed by the constitution, just like your right to verbally disagree, and comparing disagreements and speech to a group that beheads people in public is overwrought hyperbole.

903 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:36:00pm

re: #899 Aceofwhat?

harems. they sound like fun but who has the energy to rule with obligations of that magnitude?

Just like a Lotus or a Lamborghini.

904 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 3, 2010 2:36:07pm