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1 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 11:01:03pm
Beautiful objects are wrought by study through effort, but ugly things are reaped automatically without toil.

I dunno, it took considerable time and effort for me to pass that rancid taco plate I bought off the roach coach the other day.
/

2 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 11:16:23pm

Morning. Who has the coffee?

3 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 11:24:39pm

re: #2 Bubblehead II

Morning. Who has the coffee?

I have beer.
you can't have any

4 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 11:28:52pm
5 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 11:29:28pm

re: #3 Slumbering Behemoth

Don't want any. Should be in bed asleep. Start w*rking swing shift (1800-0200) today for the next month. So am trying to get acclimated to the schedule.

6 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 11:31:16pm

re: #5 Bubblehead II

Bummer dude. Do your shifts get moved around often?

7 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 11:34:13pm

Good night, all. Sleep well.

8 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 11:34:55pm

re: #6 Slumbering Behemoth

Not really. Usually only when we have someone go on vacation. This time around we had someone quit and just don't have the people to cover the shift long term. So I get to cover it this month. Next month it's someone else's turn.

9 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 11:35:06pm

re: #7 Dark_Falcon

Night DF.

10 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 11:39:08pm

re: #4 Cato the Elder

Sorry, I meant to dedicate that video.

To Irish Rose, who tonight kissed off Charles, LGF, and all the Lizards with a video of her own: "Friends In Low Places."

That's you and me and all of us. Lowlifes, every one.

From a certain commenter named "Climategate" on her blog:

Congratulations on your decision to distance yourself from LGF and Charles Johnson. This would not have been easy for you as you were a loyal supporter of his and a valued member during the blog’s better days.

I think your comments about the bullying few who have taken over that formerly great site are accurate and insightful. Clearly Mr. Johnson approves of this nasty behavior as he permits it, which is my impression from several threads I have watched. Tho’ it has been many months since I have followed LGF on a regular basis.

LGF has slowly but surely become a farcical shadow of its former self. One by one Charles Johnson has insulted, slandered and driven away his most ardent supporters.

Kindest regards and keep up the good fight!

And Rose replies:

Thanks.

So once again, Bob Dylan's "It Ain't Me, Babe", dedicated to whiners everywhere.

Oh, the martyr cookies they'll hunger for!

11 freetoken  Thu, Mar 4, 2010 11:59:38pm

re: #10 Cato the Elder

Well, that is sad. She will now have to endure the Village of the Banned descending on her saying "I told you so" or "welcome" or some greeting.

12 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:10:00am

re: #11 freetoken

They are, and she ain't having any of it.

13 freetoken  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:15:57am

re: #12 Slumbering Behemoth

Well, good for her then.

I've lived long enough to have had several sets of friends. It is customary, I believe, for people to ente relationships for a season, then to drift apart.

There is nothing wrong or inherently evil in this.

It is life.

14 Only The Lurker Knows  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:26:52am

Just out of curiosity, did she melt down here or over at her own place?

15 MittDoesNotCompute  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:49:51am

re: #13 freetoken

Well, good for her then.

I've lived long enough to have had several sets of friends. It is customary, I believe, for people to ente relationships for a season, then to drift apart.

There is nothing wrong or inherently evil in this.

It is life.

Speaking of which, WTF happened with Fenway and has anyone heard from Sharmuta?

16 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:01:22am

re: #15 talon_262

Speaking of which, WTF happened with Fenway and has anyone heard from Sharmuta?

last I heard about Sharmuta was by someone here saying she was on a spirtual journey. KT, i think. That was weeks ago.

What do you mean WTF about Fenway? I didn't know anything has happened with him, just thought he was busy with work or something. No?

17 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:03:36am

re: #14 Bubblehead II

Just out of curiosity, did she melt down here or over at her own place?

Her own. Posted here a few times saying she was leaving and asking people to email her. Making trouble.
Apparently she emailed CJ.

18 freetoken  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:08:39am

re: #15 talon_262

I mentioned Fenway downstairs. He left a comment at the Patterico blog entry that mentioned LGF's post one flight downstairs.

19 MittDoesNotCompute  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:08:50am

re: #16 iceweasel

last I heard about Sharmuta was by someone here saying she was on a spirtual journey. KT, i think. That was weeks ago.

What do you mean WTF about Fenway? I didn't know anything has happened with him, just thought he was busy with work or something. No?

OK...I knew Sharm was taking a break, but it's been a good while since she's been here. As for Fenway, back on the last thread, freetoken found a comment over on Patterico's place under Fenway's nick dissing Charles with this:

7. I wonder if Mr. Bedell did any of his online shopping through Charles Johnson’s Amazon shop.
Comment by Fenway_Nation — 3/4/2010 @ 11:15 pm

Apparently, Fenway's last posts here were back in January and he was apparently blocked before tonight...I like Fenway and Irish Rose, but sometimes I just don't understand some people.

C'est la vie...

20 MittDoesNotCompute  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:09:53am

re: #18 freetoken

I mentioned Fenway downstairs. He left a comment at the Patterico blog entry that mentioned LGF's post one flight downstairs.

Yeah, that's why I asked WTF happened with him to get himself blocked in the first place...

21 Only The Lurker Knows  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:16:25am

Saw that yesterday before the AGW brawl started. Guess I could have just done a LGF search for myself.

22 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:17:43am

re: #20 talon_262

Yeah, that's why I asked WTF happened with him to get himself blocked in the first place...

Wow, beats me. Totally missed that. I did notice him being increasingly hostile to Charles directly in a few comments, but that was quite a while ago and he didn't get blocked then.

re: #18 freetoken

I mentioned Fenway downstairs. He left a comment at the Patterico blog entry that mentioned LGF's post one flight downstairs.

I'll have to go check that out, didn't get a chance to catch up on that thread yet, thanks.

23 freetoken  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:24:37am

BTW, put up a link to the Methane study that is published in todays Science Mag, which Charles mentioned downstairs in one of the comments. I picked the U of Alaska link because I think it is the most informative.

BTW, today's issue of Science mag has several important papers on climate related subjects. Besides the mentioned study on methane, there is another one on methane, an important paper on how stratospheric water vapor is a key driver in decadal temperature changes, and a study of sea level changes in the period 14 to 9 thousand years ago, and one on more evidence for a "snowball earth" .

24 freetoken  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:40:51am
25 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:44:06am

While my old boss doesn't think so, my belief is $12.99 is a fair price for a shrimp and lobster pasta dish. Sales hides everything.

26 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:51:09am

re: #25 Cannadian Club Akbar

While my old boss doesn't think so, my belief is $12.99 is a fair price for a shrimp and lobster pasta dish. Sales hides everything.

The medium income of his clientele is about 73K. I'm about to scorch some people.

27 Only The Lurker Knows  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:55:00am

Things are heating up in the Climate Debate.

Climate scientists plot to fight back at skeptics

*snip*

"Most of our colleagues don't seem to grasp that we're not in a gentlepersons' debate, we're in a street fight against well-funded, merciless enemies who play by entirely different rules," Paul R. Ehrlich, a Stanford University researcher, said in one of the e-mails.

28 freetoken  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:01:44am

re: #27 Bubblehead II

I commented on that downstairs. Notice how the Washington Times sets the tone with the word "plot" in the title. Then they use the name of a hot-button (among conservatives) - Paul Ehrlich. Then later in the article they make is sound like one scientist is implying that climate science isn't so sound, even though that scientist had years ago admitted there denying AGW wasn't sound.

29 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:03:19am

Heh.
[Link: www.reuters.com...]

30 Only The Lurker Knows  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:05:07am

re: #28 freetoken

Well to be honest, I haven't really been following it that closely as it seems just about every thread on it turns into a brawl. When one of them opens up I either call it a day or hang out on one of the DTs

31 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:06:41am

re: #30 Bubblehead II

I jump out at all AGW threads.

32 freetoken  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:06:45am

re: #30 Bubblehead II

Understand... I'm no fan of the fierce biting either. Yet it is probably inevitable when strong personalities get involved in changing world-views.

33 freetoken  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:12:00am

re: #31 Cannadian Club Akbar

Well... then... let's turn this into a movie music thread:

34 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:14:27am

re: #33 freetoken

Well... then... let's turn this into a movie music thread:


[Video]

Mmmmkay.

35 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:17:09am

I need step out for a bit.

36 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:26:24am

apologies if this has already been posted:

Indiana’s ‘sovereign citizens’ renounce their U.S. citizenship, claim to secede from the Union.

Indiana RTV6 reports that “an increasing number of Indiana residents” are taking radical right-wing “tenther” beliefs to their logical extreme, declaring themselves “sovereign citizens” exempt from federal law and from paying taxes. These individuals claim their homes are embassies and have started “using identification cards that show them as diplomats.” The state reports that about 10 people a month have been asking for an official seal which supposedly exempts them from paying taxes. Some “sovereign citizens” have even refused to use drivers licenses or plates. When challenged by police, they show a homemade ID and claim that “no one can delay, detain or arrest them without facing damages of $2 million”:

Similar groups of “sovereign citizens” have been reported in several other states as well.
ADL link for background info on the movement.

37 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:48:52am

The latest wingnut conspiracy making the rounds derives from a Weekly Standard piece claiming that Obama 'bought' a healthcare vote by nominating the rep's brother for a federal judgeship.

Debunked.

With Democrats scrambling to find enough votes to pass health care reform, Republicans are looking for the next legislative deal to attack and have trained their sights on President Barack Obama's nomination of Democratic Rep. Jim Matheson's brother for a federal judgeship.

Republicans gleefully circulated a Weekly Standard piece yesterday that asked if Obama was trying to buy Matheson's vote by nominating his brother, Scott, to the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals. Both the White House and Matheson's office swiftly answered the question with a resounding 'no.' And both Republican senators from Matheson's home state of Utah support the nomination.

Rep. Matheson's spokesperson called the question "patently ridiculous." A White House official called the question "absurd." There's no reason in the world to think the Scott Matheson nomination is based on anything but Scott Matheson's eminent qualifications as a law school dean, former Harvard professor, Rhodes scholar, respected attorney, and accomplished federal prosecutor.

Is there any evidence -- anything at all -- to suggest the Matheson nomination is related in any way to getting his brother's vote on health care? No. There's literally nothing.

38 freetoken  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:49:27am

re: #36 iceweasel

Ahh.. the Libertarian Fundamentalist lunacy is going to the next step.

As far as I am concerned ... fine, then, they are not citizens. Put them on a boat on the high seas as people without a country.

39 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:54:42am

Morning all

40 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:55:11am

re: #38 freetoken

Ahh.. the Libertarian Fundamentalist lunacy is going to the next step.

As far as I am concerned ... fine, then, they are not citizens. Put them on a boat on the high seas as people without a country.

I find it pretty damn creepy. It's one thing when we're talking about some random wackos on a compound somewhere (not that that's a good thing either) or some lone individual 'living off the grid'. The connections to this weird tenther movement, and the support it's getting from elected officials (DeMint for example) and right wing think tanks is freaking me out.
I didn't realise the Heritage Foundation was mixed up in this:

the right-wing Heritage Foundation, a radical “tenther” organization which has endorsed the view that Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, the federal minimum wage, and the federal ban on workplace discrimination and whites-only lunch counters are all unconstitutional.

41 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:01:11am

I think we make a mistake when we try to classify crazy. People who walk into a Holocaust museum, a church, a school, or the pentagon and start shooting, or fly a plane into the CIA, all have really only one thing in common...they're crazy. Trying to fit them into some kind of political class conspiracy is a mistake.

42 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:02:03am

re: #41 RogueOne

I think we make a mistake when we try to classify crazy. People who walk into a Holocaust museum, a church, a school, or the pentagon and start shooting, or fly a plane into the IRS, all have really only one thing in common...they're crazy. Trying to fit them into some kind of political class conspiracy is a mistake.

It's early. Wrong acronym building.

43 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:04:06am

...Because if you start swiping with a broad brush 4 of the 5 were left wing zealots. I have serious disagreements with the left wing of the libertarian party but I don't believe 99% of them are intent on killing the opposition.

44 Only The Lurker Knows  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:04:54am

Up next, a resurgence of the militia/survivalist movement.

45 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:07:43am

re: #43 RogueOne

...Because if you start swiping with a broad brush 4 of the 5 were left wing zealots.

I can think of 2 church shooters-- that guy who shot up the Unitarian Universalist Church and Scott Roeder. Neither are left wing zealots. Not even on the left. Very, very much right wing zealots.

Holocaust Museum shooter? Not a left wing zealot. Not even on the left.
Joe Stack? Not a left wing zealot. Not even on the left.
Don't know who else you're talking about, but let's not deny the rising tide of right wing extremism and violence.

46 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:08:52am

re: #44 Bubblehead II

Up next, a resurgence of the militia/survivalist movement.

Well, when the SPLC starts warning of left wing anti-government loons I'll get concerned. Until then I'm going with the "crazy is crazy" and crazy really doesn't need a reason to snap.

47 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:09:17am

Completely off topic, if you like dogs you will probably find this Achewood comic very funny.

48 freetoken  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:09:47am

re: #40 iceweasel

One thing, looking back, is that 9/11 sort of re-oriented the entire country for awhile. During the Clinton Presidency I remember the weird growing... indeed, Bedell himself apparently bought into the Clinton Body-count conspiracy given his fixation with Col. Sabow.

Now that the first effects of 9/11 are wearing off, the older, more fundamental trends may be re-emerging.

One thought I've had lately, and this will not endear me to some, is that the sociopathy of large sections of our nation arise out of a dramatic, irreconcilable clash between the psyche's need of a particular world view with a different reality, a reality some of us think is indeed the real world.

I'm speaking here of religion, but not necessarily castigating Christianity per se, but the National Religion that dresses up as Christianity (but fails on a closer theological evaluation.)

Revanchism has to have as its heart fear. Humans have basic emotions - fear, happiness, sadness, etc. These higher concepts (nationality, religion, etc.) must be related to the deeper seated emotions.

Fear of the future is the driving force behind all of this, I propose. In Europe they have gone through their Post-Christian catharsis - or at least most of it, we seem to be seeing the end of it now in the Serbia/Kosovo mess and the continued unwinding in Post Soviet Russia.

We in the US have not gone through this emotional/intellectual purge of the old thoughts, the old ways, completely. Maybe, looking back, the 1960's was a start to the process, but the 1979 Iran Hostage crisis and the rise of Ronald Reagan sort of stopped it. Then in the Clinton years the process started again... and then 9/11 really pulled the breaks.

Perhaps once again we are now starting to engage in this purge of the old-thought, at least until the next external military threat pulls us outward again.

Introspection is difficult because we have to look at what is ugly about ourselves.

49 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:14:25am

re: #45 iceweasel

I can think of 2 church shooters-- that guy who shot up the Unitarian Universalist Church and Scott Roeder. Neither are left wing zealots. Not even on the left. Very, very much right wing zealots.

Holocaust Museum shooter? Not a left wing zealot. Not even on the left.
Joe Stack? Not a left wing zealot. Not even on the left.
Don't know who else you're talking about, but let's not deny the rising tide of right wing extremism and violence.

Stack was a left wing loon. They've tried to paint him as a teabagger but you can't get past the commie manifesto he posted. I don't even remember the Unitarian shooter so I'll give you that one. The college professor (left wing loon) and the shooter last night was a left-wing libertarian loon. My point is I don't think it was their liberal viewpoints that set them on the path to killing, I think it's their crazy mental makeup.

People tend to search for a reason bad things happen, to try to make sense of tragedy. That I understand but the truth is there isn't any reason. Crazy people snap and there isn't much, if anything, we can do about it.

50 freetoken  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:16:07am

re: #49 RogueOne

... and the shooter last night was a left-wing libertarian loon.

How can you call someone who rails against socialists and the government destroying private property as a "lefty"?

51 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:22:26am

re: #50 freetoken

How can you call someone who rails against socialists and the government destroying private property as a "lefty"?

libertarians have wings too you know! He was part of the anti-expansionism, anti-war, Anti-bush crowd. That would put him on the left side of the libertarian aisle. I'm waiting for his rants about jews to come out next.

52 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:23:37am

re: #49 RogueOne

Well, here's a little something from the Unitarian Univeraslist shooter's note, and some info on him.

This was a symbolic killing. Who I wanted to kill was every Democrat in the Senate & House, the 100 people in Bernard Goldberg's book. I'd like to kill everyone in the mainstream media. But I know those people were inaccessible to me. I couldn't get to the generals & high ranking officers of the Marxist movement so I went after the foot soldiers, the chickenshit liberals that vote in these traitorous people. Someone had to get the ball rolling. I volunteered. I hope others do the same. It's the only way we can rid America of this cancerous pestilence.
In a parallel train of thought; It saddens me to think back on all the bad things that Liberalism has done to this country. The worst problem America faces today is Liberalism. They have dumbed down education, they have defined deviancy down. Liberals have attack'd every major institution that made America great. From the Boy Scouts to the military; from education to Religion. The Major News outlets have become the propaganda arm of the Democrat Party. Liberals are evil, they embrace the tenets of Karl Marx, they're Marxist, socialist, communists.
If decent patriotic Americans could vote 3 times in every election we couldn't stem this tide of liberalism that's destroying America. Liberals are a pest like termites. Millions of them. Each little bite contributes to the downfall of this great Nation. The only way we can rid ourselves of this evil is Kill them in the streets. Kill them where they gather.

I'd like to encourage other like minded people to do what I've done. If life aint worth living anymore don't just Kill yourself, do something for your country before you go. Go Kill Liberals.


PDF of whole note here.

Summer 2008.

53 freetoken  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:24:52am

re: #51 RogueOne

His own writings are explicitly anti-socialist! Yes, he is a Libertarian Fundamentalist, but as I mentioned above, he appears to have bought into the idea that Clinton had Col. Sabow murdered. His anti-Bush statements are no more so than, say, Pat Buchanan's.

54 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:25:34am

re: #52 iceweasel

Well, here's a little something from the Unitarian Univeraslist shooter's note, and some info on him.

PDF of whole note here.

Summer 2008.

Wow. That whole thing is chock full of crazy.

55 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:28:55am

re: #54 RogueOne

Wow. That whole thing is chock full of crazy.

Yes, and chock full of the eliminationist rhetoric that the right has been mainstreaming for over a decade. Guess who was on his reading list? O'Reilly, Rush, Coulter, Beck, Michael Savage. They found some of those books in his freaking car when he did the shooting, and his house was stuffed full of crap like that.
And his head.

56 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:30:22am

re: #53 freetoken

His own writings are explicitly anti-socialist! Yes, he is a Libertarian Fundamentalist, but as I mentioned above, he appears to have bought into the idea that Clinton had Col. Sabow murdered. His anti-Bush statements are no more so than, say, Pat Buchanan's.

So we agree he was crazy? Pat Buchanan, for all his faults, has never suggested people take up arms against the pentagon. Buchanan is anti-war only because he thinks the jews are controlling our foreign policy, other than that he's very pro-military. This guy hated the military so I think that alone takes him out of the right wing of the libertarian fringe.

57 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:34:48am

re: #56 RogueOne

So we agree he was crazy? Pat Buchanan, for all his faults, has never suggested people take up arms against the pentagon. Buchanan is anti-war only because he thinks the jews are controlling our foreign policy, other than that he's very pro-military. This guy hated the military so I think that alone takes him out of the right wing of the libertarian fringe.

Not necessarily, there are a lot of these types in the Libertarian Party. Isolationism is a big thing with them.

58 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:35:20am

re: #48 freetoken


I absolutely agree with everything you've said, most especially this part here:

One thought I've had lately, and this will not endear me to some, is that the sociopathy of large sections of our nation arise out of a dramatic, irreconcilable clash between the psyche's need of a particular world view with a different reality, a reality some of us think is indeed the real world.

There's a great link on another thread, in response to Killgore's Wingnut Music Break, "We Want America Back", which I thought was extremely thoughtful and well written:

The typical liberal reaction to this sentiment is outrage. “How can these people be so hateful and so close-minded?” For those of us who see the cultural shifts of the last few decades as significant steps forward, it is very difficult to understand how otherwise rational and good-hearted people can cling to such outdated beliefs and can think that things are worse now than they were in 1955 or even 1855. To us, the attitude behind “We Want America Back” is not only outrageous, it’s completely illogical.

As a progressive Presbyterian pastor in a conservative Southern congregation, I deal with the “We Want America Back” mentality on a daily basis. And while I disagree with many of the particular beliefs I encounter, I do understand the situation and the feeling that lead to these troublesome beliefs. The situtation is a rapidly changing world, and the feeling is grief.

To those of us who are excited about Obama and the changes that are happening, this feeling makes no sense. But grief is an emotion that doesn’t have to make sense. It might be true that life is better than it was 50 years ago. It might be true that millions of Americans now enjoy rights and opportunities that they did not back then. And it might be true that the world is no more or less of a dangerous place than it has ever been. But the people who resonate with “We Want America Back”, rightly or wrongly, are feeling a deep and profound sense of loss. To them, something good about this nation has been lost forever, and the future can only bring more loss and disappointment.

Of course, conservative politicians are capitalizing on this profound sense of loss. The war on terror, the war on drugs, the rash of anti-gay ballot measures, the anti-evolution campaign, and a host of other conservative movements all take advantage of this generalized feeling of grief and focus it in on specific political agendas. They all offer the illusory promise of reestablishing that “safer” and more “recognizable” world, even though such a promise is unattainable. But despite these political manipulations, the grief in the people themselves is very real and should be acknlowledged and treated with respect.

The challenge for progressives, then, is how to help people understand the true nature of their grief, that the world is changing whether we want it to or not, and that it is indeed changing for the better. If we simply call them bigots and closed-minded jerks, they will not be able to deal effectively with their feelings of loss. They will instead see us as the enemy, will despise the things we stand for, will believe whatever Rush Limbuagh or Bill O’Reilly tells them, and will fall back into the same racist, homophobic, and xenophobic attitudes.

But - if we can approach the “We Want America Back” crowd with a little more patience and understanding, perhaps we can help them to work through their grief - not by agreeing with things we disagree with, but rather by respecting where they are in this very difficult process of moving from one era in our history into the next.


I think this hits the dominant engines of the revanchist tendency: it is about anger and fear, and also grief.

59 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:35:41am

One of the worst massacres of the 20th-century came back to haunt international politics yesterday when a powerful Washington panel voted to call the murder of about 1.5 million Armenians in Turkey “genocide”.

After more than three hours of debate, the House Committee on Foreign Affairs narrowly approved a resolution calling on President Obama to “characterise the systematic and deliberate annihilation of 1.5 million Armenians as genocide”.

The vote went ahead despite last-minute pleas from the White House and State Department and triggered a furious reaction from Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Turkish Prime Minister.

“We condemn this resolution, which accuses the Turkish nation of a crime it did not committ,” he said. As Armenian observers applauded the vote on Capitol Hill, the Turkish Ambassador to Washington was recalled.

SNIP

60 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:36:17am

re: #55 iceweasel

Yes, and chock full of the eliminationist rhetoric that the right has been mainstreaming for over a decade. Guess who was on his reading list? O'Reilly, Rush, Coulter, Beck, Michael Savage. They found some of those books in his freaking car when he did the shooting, and his house was stuffed full of crap like that.
And his head.

We obviously disagree. If there were no O'reilly, rush, coulter, beck or savage he would have still ended up snapping. There are a lot of people out here who are anti-government, some vitriolic about it, but I don't think I've ever read anything where those people have suggested picking up a gun and killing people who disagree. Some people are just bad.

61 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:36:40am

re: #28 freetoken

I commented on that downstairs. Notice how the Washington Times sets the tone with the word "plot" in the title. Then they use the name of a hot-button (among conservatives) - Paul Ehrlich. Then later in the article they make is sound like one scientist is implying that climate science isn't so sound, even though that scientist had years ago admitted there denying AGW wasn't sound.

From the WT story:
"Some scientists question the tactic and say they should focus instead on perfecting their science, but the researchers who are organizing the effort say the political battle is eroding confidence in their work."

Good luck to them!

62 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:36:44am

re: #56 RogueOne

This guy hated the military so I think that alone takes him out of the right wing of the libertarian fringe.

I must object to the notion that hating the military is a constutitive trait for being on the left.

63 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:37:48am

Four militants who admitted planning “a monstrous bloodbath” with foiled car bomb attacks on US targets in Germany were convicted on Thursday of conspiracy to murder.

A court in the city of Duesseldorf also convicted the men of belonging to a foreign terrorist organisation, and sentenced them to between five and 12 years in jail for the plot in September 2007.

The three Germans and one Turk were in at an advanced stage of planning to use three car bombs with 250 kg of explosives each to attack US targets in Germany to kill hundreds of people. They were known as the “Sauerland group” after the area of western Germany where they were caught.

SNIP

64 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:37:52am

re: #57 Varek Raith

Not necessarily, there are a lot of these types in the Libertarian Party. Isolationism is a big thing with them.

Oh I agree, it's a big part of the reason I call myself a small "l"-ibertarian. The left side of the libertarian specturm is full of those types. I'm just not of the belief they think the answer to their political issues is picking up a gun and shooting people at the pentagon.

65 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:39:16am

re: #62 iceweasel

I must object to the notion that hating the military is a constutitive trait for being on the left.

left wing libertarian. He's part of my group so I get to classify him. If he were a registered dem I'd let you guys do it.//

66 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:39:39am

re: #60 RogueOne

We obviously disagree. If there were no O'reilly, rush, coulter, beck or savage he would have still ended up snapping. There are a lot of people out here who are anti-government, some vitriolic about it, but I don't think I've ever read anything where those people have suggested picking up a gun and killing people who disagree. Some people are just bad.

Yes, some people are just bad, and some people are just crazy. Neither of those is endemic to any party.
But there absolutely is a strain of eliminationist rhetoric that's been mainstreamed on the right, and the crazy people are picking up on the messages that liberals are a 'cancer', or a 'disease', or 'bloodsucking vampires', all of which you can find Beck for example saying in just the last 9 months, and they're taking those notions to their logical and literal conclusion.
It exists. Check out some of Dave Newiert's work on eliminativism on the right, please, he's been covering it for ten years.

67 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:42:10am

re: #64 RogueOne

Hmm, I'm not sure you can put a libertarian in the left or right category... Libertarians are just there. Example, I would be considered a far left, capitalist, rightwing warmonger with my beliefs... I don't really 'fit' in the left or right mold, as would most libertarians, I suspect.
:shrugs:
;)

68 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:42:33am

re: #66 iceweasel

Yes, some people are just bad, and some people are just crazy. Neither of those is endemic to any party.
But there absolutely is a strain of eliminationist rhetoric that's been mainstreamed on the right, and the crazy people are picking up on the messages that liberals are a 'cancer', or a 'disease', or 'bloodsucking vampires', all of which you can find Beck for example saying in just the last 9 months, and they're taking those notions to their logical and literal conclusion.
It exists. Check out some of Dave Newiert's work on eliminativism on the right, please, he's been covering it for ten years.

That exact same rhetoric is found on the left against the right and was very much part of the mainstream on the left during the last administration. There were some pretty horrific things said about Bush/Cheney/Rove et.all that started even before the florida fiasco.

69 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:46:49am

re: #63 MandyManners

Four militants who admitted planning “a monstrous bloodbath” with foiled car bomb attacks on US targets in Germany were convicted on Thursday of conspiracy to murder.

Hi Mandy.
Amazing that anyone is still using "militants" to describe terrorists.
BTW, I can't open your link.

70 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:46:58am

re: #67 Varek Raith

Hmm, I'm not sure you can put a libertarian in the left or right category... Libertarians are just there. Example, I would be considered a far left, capitalist, rightwing warmonger with my beliefs... I don't really 'fit' in the left or right mold, as would most libertarians, I suspect.
:shrugs:
;)

So you're saying we all look alike? RAC....never mind.

71 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:47:38am

re: #68 RogueOne

That exact same rhetoric is found on the left against the right and was very much part of the mainstream on the left during the last administration. There were some pretty horrific things said about Bush/Cheney/Rove et.all that started even before the florida fiasco.

Absolute bollocks, rogue, sorry. Yes, lefties said terrible things about the above. On anonymous internet sites and at crazy protests.
We didn't have a huge industry of mainstream people with their own shows or bestselling books, regularly appearing on news shows, continually spewing crap like Coulter:
"We need to execute John Walker Lindh in order to physically intimdate liberals, and make them understand that they can be killed too."
THAT is where the UU shooter got his thinking. and THAT sort of thing permeated our discourse and still does-- on the right. It was mainstreamed for over a decade.

I'm not going to get into it any further with you, (or with anyone who wants to argue about this at the moment) and we don't have to agree, but I strongly urge you to read Newiert's book before claiming anything like 'the left did it too'. It just isn't true.

72 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:49:09am

re: #70 RogueOne

So you're saying we all look alike? RAC...never mind.

Not at all, I'm saying that you'd be hard pressed to classify my politics in the left or right mold. I have political beliefs that would have lefties calling me a wingnut and other beliefs that would have righties calling me a moonbat.

RAC?

73 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:49:28am

re: #66 iceweasel

I'm not really fond of people in general. I break people down into 2 groups, assholes and non-assholes. I find it a healthier way of classifying people instead of left/right/fascist/liberal. The shooter last night was an asshole.

74 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:52:51am

re: #73 RogueOne

I'm not really fond of people in general. I break people down into 2 groups, assholes and non-assholes. I find it a healthier way of classifying people instead of left/right/fascist/liberal. The shooter last night was an asshole.

A world without assholes would quickly become explosive.

75 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:53:00am

re: #73 RogueOne

I'm not really fond of people in general. I break people down into 2 groups, assholes and non-assholes. I find it a healthier way of classifying people instead of left/right/fascist/liberal. The shooter last night was an asshole.

See, I know there's always something we can all agree on here! I classify practically everyone on LGF (exceptions being sockpuppets and trolls) as non-assholes. Maybe that's the third party america needs.

Varek, start the hippie drum circle, please!

76 SteveC  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:54:05am

re: #51 RogueOne

libertarians have wings too you know!

But aren't Libertarians flightless despite having wings? *Runs*

77 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:57:23am
78 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:58:01am

I want to be an asshole. Wait, what?

79 sattv4u2  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:58:35am

re: #59 MandyManners

One of the worst massacres of the 20th-century came back to haunt international politics yesterday when a powerful Washington panel voted to call the murder of about 1.5 million Armenians in Turkey “genocide”.

iirc,,, there's suppose to be (another) try at getting the Turks and Armenians together to discuss the issue. Turkey to this day says there was no "systematic" intentional attempt to wipe out the Armenians.

80 sattv4u2  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:59:04am

re: #78 Cannadian Club Akbar

I want to be an asshole. Wait, what?

Sorry, we're not hring today!

81 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:59:15am

re: #72 Varek Raith

Not at all, I'm saying that you'd be hard pressed to classify my politics in the left or right mold. I have political beliefs that would have lefties calling me a wingnut and other beliefs that would have righties calling me a moonbat.

RAC?

Started to call you a racist, it was a joke.

Ice you have to know better than that. Bush was accused of wanting to drag black people chained to his truck because he didn't vote for the hate crimes bill. There were mainstream movies that got off on presidential assasination chic. Cheney was a blood sucking baby killer and people still hope he dies everytime he has a heart hiccup. The last 7 years all we've heard is the last administration was full of war criminals that should be tried and hung. I'm not doubting there is vitriol on the right but it's no worse than what we always hear from the extremes when their party isn't in power.

82 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:00:15am

re: #76 SteveC

But aren't Libertarians flightless despite having wings? *Runs*

Our wings grow vertically!

83 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:00:30am

re: #79 sattv4u2

iirc,,, there's suppose to be (another) try at getting the Turks and Armenians together to discuss the issue. Turkey to this day says there was no "systematic" intentional attempt to wipe out the Armenians.

Did Jews and Germans ever get together to discuss the Holocaust?

84 sattv4u2  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:00:51am

re: #80 sattv4u2

Sorry, we're not hring today!

hIring!!

Damn ,, I screw up more funnies with my lack of typing skills!!!!!

85 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:00:56am

re: #81 RogueOne

BTW, I'm not suggesting that kind of behavior is anything new because it isn't. People have been outrageous assholes since before our founding.

86 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:01:44am

re: #84 sattv4u2

hIring!!

Damn ,, I screw up more funnies with my lack of typing skills!!!

That worked out better.
/

87 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:01:54am

re: #84 sattv4u2

I didn't even notice the typo.

Idiot.

88 SteveC  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:02:00am

News -

John Radcliffe Hospital in Oxford has suspended its Pediatric Heart Surgery program following four post surgical deaths in three months.

Peds Heart Surgery is (by its nature) high risk and it is quite possible to have several consecutive bad outcomes, but they are going to stop and NHS is going to bring in an outside team to review their procedures and see if the hospital is contributing to the problem. They went through this with the Coronary Bypass program a few years ago and a lot of people are worried.

89 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:02:47am

re: #87 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I didn't even notice the typo.

Idiot.

I tend to only correct typos if Cato's around...
;)

90 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:03:11am

MSNBC just reported he had "lingering resentment towards the military". Gee, ya think?

91 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:03:16am

re: #79 sattv4u2


Turkey to this day says there was no "systematic" intentional attempt to wipe out the Armenians.

But they did release a statement that read, "Oops.".

92 SteveC  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:03:38am

re: #83 MandyManners

Did Jews and Germans ever get together to discuss the Holocaust?

I understand the Jews were opposed to it.

/// X 47

93 sattv4u2  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:03:45am

re: #83 MandyManners

Did Jews and Germans ever get together to discuss the Holocaust?

Somewhere in the back of my sleep deprived cranium there's a thought that although they didn't have a "beer summit" the official German gov't did say something (years and years ago) and there are many laws on German books protecting Jews and Jewish images.

94 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:04:04am

re: #81 RogueOne

Rogue, the point is not that I am denying there was vitriol on the left, often quite horrendous. I am saying that it was never mainstreamed on the left the way it has been on the right by prominent figures for over a decade. Some of the crazy we're seeing now is the culmination of that rhetoric.

And I can sympathize with you not realising this. I hated Rush, Coulter, et al but I didn't see them as engaging in elimnationist speech, and I did not recognise a pattern. But in fact there has been one, and Newiert's probably the guy who's done the most work on that. He's the one who convinced me back in 2007.

95 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:04:20am

Tom Friedman is on Morning Joe. He's gained a ton of weight. His head has gotten HUGE.

96 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:04:38am

Drudge's most unfortunate banner headline (IMO) ever is still up.

Totally agin' the health care thingy, but that headline sucks.

97 sattv4u2  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:05:04am

re: #91 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

But they did release a statement that read, "Oops.".

or as the kids say today
"My bad" !

bbiab ,,,, kids ready to be driven to the bus stop

98 SteveC  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:05:13am

re: #85 RogueOne

BTW, I'm not suggesting that kind of behavior is anything new because it isn't. People have been outrageous assholes since before our founding.

"People tell me `I take cocaine because it enhances my personality!' and I say `Really? What if you are already an asshole?'" (Chris Rock?)

99 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:05:34am

re: #83 MandyManners

Did Jews and Germans ever get together to discuss the Holocaust?

Unlike the Turk butchers, Germany acknowledged the holocaust and its national guilt.

100 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:05:53am

re: #96 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Drudge's most unfortunate banner headline (IMO) ever is still up.

Totally agin' the health care thingy, but that headline sucks.

*Ventures into the sewers* You're right, bad headline is bad!
*rolls eyes*

101 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:06:04am

re: #97 sattv4u2

I used to have to walk to the bus stop.

102 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:06:50am

re: #98 SteveC

"People tell me `I take cocaine because it enhances my personality!' and I say `Really? What if you are already an asshole?'" (Chris Rock?)

Bill Cosby (believe it or not)

The only profanity I've ever heard him say.

103 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:07:07am

re: #101 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I used to have to walk to the bus stop.

15 miles? Uphill? In both directions? During a blizzard?

104 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:08:14am

re: #103 Varek Raith

15 miles? Uphill? In both directions? During a blizzard?

No. It was a block and a half away.

You're thinking of my dad and mom.

105 William of Orange  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:08:39am

TOTALLY BAAAAAWSOME DOMINO ORGY!!

The lads of OK Go do it again! Another memorable clip. I know you're going to enjoy this!

OK Go - This too shall pass.

This is the second awesome clip for this same great track! Take a look at the equally masterful first clip.

106 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:09:24am

Taking off for work. BBL folks.

107 SteveC  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:10:02am

re: #100 Varek Raith

*Ventures into the sewers* You're right, bad headline is bad!
*rolls eyes*

MY GOD!

Oprah's Oscar Special finished dead last in the primetime ratings! That *is* horrible!

/// \\

108 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:10:10am

re: #103 Varek Raith

15 miles? Uphill? In both directions? During a blizzard?

Wearing only one shoe with a big hole in it?

109 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:10:34am

Dry feet and hardwood floors. Not a good combo.

110 SteveC  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:11:07am

re: #102 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Bill Cosby (believe it or not)

The only profanity I've ever heard him say.

I thought that quote was older than Chris Rock, but the COZ?!?!?!

Well, truth is truth!

111 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:11:24am

re: #109 Cannadian Club Akbar

Dry feet and hardwood floors. Not a good combo.

Though, hardwood floors + running cats = Rofl.

112 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:12:12am

Some people deserve what they get IMO.

Sometimes the investors should be locked away to protect them from themselves.

113 SteveC  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:12:44am

re: #111 Varek Raith

Though, hardwood floors + running cats = Rofl.

Hardwood Floors + socks + childhood = WHEEE!

114 shiplord kirel  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:14:29am

Missed the Pentagon shooter string last night.

Other than being batshit crazy, what could have inspired this asshole to think he could take down the Pentagon with a pipsqueak handgun?
Well, according to his wikiversity page (linked earlier), he was enthusiastic about something called the Open Insurgent Project which was created "to simulate and manage small-arms defense against state-of-the-art military opponents. "

Worked out real well for him, didn't it?

115 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:14:52am

re: #108 Spare O'Lake

Wearing only one shoe with a big hole in it?

Funny. My dad tells the story of when he met my mom (in West Virginia). Says, "I saw this pretty little girl walking up the road wearing one shoe... I slowed down and said, 'Hey girl, did you lose a shoe?' and she said, 'No, I found one!'".

116 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:14:57am

re: #112 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Some people deserve what they get IMO.

Sometimes the investors should be locked away to protect them from themselves.

I hate physics. Fucking bullshit artist. I should be one.

117 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:15:35am

re: #114 shiplord kirel

He also seems to have graduated from the Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmen Academy.
/

118 sattv4u2  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:17:48am

re: #101 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I used to have to walk to the bus stop.

Well ,,, The nearest bus stop is 7 miles away. He goes to a private school. They have only 4 buses (most kids are driven to the school, or in the case of the 10th, 11th and 12th gradrers drive themselves)

119 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:18:34am

Nothing on Alex Jones' inforwar site about Beddel.

120 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:18:42am

Yet.

121 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:18:58am

re: #114 shiplord kirel

Like trying to hold up a doughnut shop on half price day during the local police precinct's shift change...

122 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:19:11am

Don't forget that Jones was rabidly anti-Bush.

123 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:19:37am

re: #114 shiplord kirel

Missed the Pentagon shooter string last night.

Other than being batshit crazy, what could have inspired this asshole to think he could take down the Pentagon with a pipsqueak handgun?
Well, according to his wikiversity page (linked earlier), he was enthusiastic about something called the Open Insurgent Project which was created "to simulate and manage small-arms defense against state-of-the-art military opponents. "

Worked out real well for him, didn't it?

I think 'batshit crazy' pretty much covers this one end to end.

124 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:19:48am

re: #118 sattv4u2

Yeah. That's far.

125 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:19:51am

re: #115 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Funny. My dad tells the story of when he met my mom (in West Virginia). Says, "I saw this pretty little girl walking up the road wearing one shoe... I slowed down and said, 'Hey girl, did you lose a shoe?' and she said, 'No, I found one!'".

Ok, I thought the story you posted on Valentine's Day about meeting your wife was the cutest 'how we met' story ever, but now it has competition. Clearly adorable 'how we met' involving witty repartee run in your family.
So freaking adorable!

126 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:19:55am

re: #122 MandyManners

Don't forget that Jones was rabidly anti-Bush.

He's rabidly anti-everyfreakingthing. Or there abouts.
;)

127 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:20:34am

re: #125 iceweasel

Clearly adorable 'how we met' stories involving witty repartee run in your family.


PIMF

128 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:21:11am

re: #126 Varek Raith

He's rabidly anti-everyfreakingthing. Or there abouts.
;)

I think his strategy is to milk the loons of either party in order to make money.

129 sattv4u2  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:21:24am

re: #125 iceweasel

Ok, I thought the story you posted on Valentine's Day about meeting your wife was the cutest 'how we met' story ever, but now it has competition. Clearly adorable 'how we met' involving witty repartee run in your family.
So freaking adorable!

Dontchya just wanna give him a big ole hug

((IF you could get your arms around him, that is!!)

SORRY ,,, LUV YA FVB !!!!

130 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:22:54am

Heh, the pentagon shooter story on prison planet, though.

131 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:22:59am

re: #129 sattv4u2

Dontchya just wanna give him a big ole hug

((IF you could get your arms around him, that is!!)

SORRY ,,, LUV YA FVB !!!

Yes, I do and I would!
In a purely platonic way sanctioned by Jimmah and the lovely Mrs FVB, o' course.

132 SteveC  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:23:47am

re: #114 shiplord kirel

...which was created "to simulate and manage small-arms defense against state-of-the-art military opponents. "

Reminds me of my aunt.

She was a combat nurse in Vietnam who spent her entire career in the regular Army or the Reserves. Being a nurse, her Reserve Duty was usually in the base hospital, but every now and again the higherups wanted everybody out on maneuvers. Aunt Allie was not a happy camper - she had been there and done that.

She hated tanks. Allie says that it always seems that she's have her fox hole dug, and the moment she got "comfortable" a tank would roll up, fire one round, and leave. But that round would draw so much fire in return that she'd have to grab her shit and skedaddle.

NOT a happy camper!

133 sattv4u2  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:24:01am

re: #131 iceweasel

Yes, I do and I would!
In a purely platonic way sanctioned by Jimmah and the lovely Mrs FVB, o' course.

Well , don't make a lunch date with him. Stood me up as I was driving to it!!

134 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:24:07am

re: #123 SixDegrees

I think 'batshit crazy' pretty much covers this one end to end.

Apparently, the shooter has died. Breaking on CNN.

135 sattv4u2  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:24:47am

re: #134 SixDegrees

Apparently, the shooter has died. Breaking on CNN.

A story with a happy ending!

136 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:25:08am

re: #133 sattv4u2
I'm pretty sure I'd make a date for a hug with Ice Ice Baby.

137 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:25:10am

re: #134 SixDegrees

Apparently, the shooter has died. Breaking on CNN.

Good.

138 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:25:19am

re: #130 Varek Raith

Heh, the pentagon shooter story on prison planet, though.

Prison Planet, for those that do not know, is a, wait for it, Alex Jones site!

139 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:25:43am

re: #135 sattv4u2

I hoped for his death last night!

Clapped my hands and everything...

140 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:25:58am

re: #133 sattv4u2

Well , don't make a lunch date with him. Stood me up as I was driving to it!!

FVB= Fickle VB?!
I made a typo when I was typing 'fickle' btw, which would have been, uh, a very specially embarrassing typo had I not caught it.

141 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:26:00am

re: #138 Varek Raith

Prison Planet, for those that do not know, is a, wait for it, Alex Jones site!

Did you just learn this?

142 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:26:00am

re: #134 SixDegrees

Apparently, the shooter has died. Breaking on CNN.

He died last night.

143 SteveC  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:26:07am

re: #136 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'm pretty sure I'd make a date for a hug with Ice Ice Baby.

Word to your mother!

144 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:27:00am

I am not glad he's dead. Police and psychologists could have learned a lot from him.

145 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:27:05am

re: #141 Cannadian Club Akbar

Did you just learn this?

Oh, not at all! It's just in recent convos on other forums, people were utterly shocked by this revelation. :shrugs:
:)

146 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:27:18am

re: #134 SixDegrees

Heh...

147 SteveC  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:28:01am

re: #138 Varek Raith

Prison Planet, for those that do not know, is a, wait for it, Alex Jones site!

WAIT!

I have to plug the tape deck in before I can cue up the scary music.....

*SCARY MUSIC*

148 sandbox  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:28:51am

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

Looks like Obama to send KSM and others back to military tribunals--reversing Eric Holder's decision to try them in civilian courts. Hooray!

149 sattv4u2  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:28:53am

Okay ,,, kids ready, then nap for an hour

Lizard Nation,, you have a task...
I have two twelve hour and one ten hour day at work in my immediate future. It is your mission, if you decide to take it, to keep me entertained, happy and awake!

150 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:29:21am

re: #145 Varek Raith

Oh, not at all! It's just in recent convos on other forums, people were utterly shocked by this revelation. :shrugs:
:)

It was weird, a few people would post links to InfoWars. I'd tell 'em that site is chock full of kookiness. Their response? They'd link to Prison Planet! Oblivious to why I'd then laugh at them.
XD

151 sattv4u2  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:30:12am

re: #144 MandyManners

I am not glad he's dead. Police and psychologists could have learned a lot from him.

LESSON ,, he was a sick bastard

(there ,,, I saved all that time and money PLUS a trial and all the appeals!)
//

152 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:30:54am

My radio just said a California congressman, against gay marriage, was arrested for DUI. After leaving a gay bar. Not gonna bother to look for it.

153 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:30:58am

Fiercely backed by allied Iran, Syria on Thursday denied hiding nuclear activities from the world and said Israel was the source of suspicious uranium particles found at a Syrian desert complex, allegedly bombed two years ago by IAF jets.

The Syrian and Iranian comments to the International Atomic Energy Agency's board of governors came in response to Western demands that Damascus stop stonewalling IAEA attempts to investigate suspicions that it ran covert nuclear programs — some with possible weapons applications.

While Iran remains the main focus of the board, Syria's refusal to allow IAEA inspectors into the country for follow-up visit to sites possibly linked to secret nuclear work was the principal theme of Thursday's closed board meeting.

A recent IAEA report prepared for the board said for the first time that uranium particles found at the desert facility allegedly destroyed by IAF warplanes in September 2007 indicate possible covert nuclear activities at the site. The finding lent backing to Western allegations that the bombed target was a nearly completed nuclear reactor that Washington says was of North Korean design and meant to making weapons-grade plutonium.

Syria has put forward several explanations for the source of the uranium at the bomb site and of uranium traces found at its Damascus research reactor that IAEA inspectors say would not normally be found at such a facility. One Syrian suggestion — that Israeli munitions used to bomb the desert location contained depleted uranium — has been all but ruled out by the agency.

SNIP

No, dood! It's CHEMTRAILS!!!

154 SteveC  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:31:20am

re: #140 iceweasel

FVB= Fickle VB?!
I made a typo when I was typing 'fickle' btw, which would have been, uh, a very specially embarrassing typo had I not caught it.

I was typing a paper in college about the fighting tactics used by wooden ship navies. Their cannons could fire Grapshot - a lot of small steel balls used to sweep the deck of the opposing ship. Basically using a cannon as a huge shotgun.

At one point I typed grapeshit and never caught it. But the professor did!

155 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:31:35am

My favorite Alex Jones clip. ;)

156 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:31:50am

re: #152 Cannadian Club Akbar

My radio just said a California congressman, against gay marriage, was arrested for DUI. After leaving a gay bar. Not gonna bother to look for it.

Front page here.

157 sattv4u2  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:32:51am

re: #154 SteveC

At one point I typed grapeshit and never caught it. But the professor did!

You had a professor that caught grapeshit?

All I had were ones that would occasionally toss and catch a frisbee!!
//

158 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:32:52am

re: #135 sattv4u2

re: #137 Cannadian Club Akbar

That's the way I'm leaning, but I have mixed feelings. It seems to me this guy had serious mental issues; it might have been worthwhile to find out what was wrong with him, and see if it could be useful in protecting against similar problems in the future.

And, right now at least, we know nothing at all about his motives. If he did this intending to commit 'suicide by cop,' he got exactly what he wanted out of it, whereas 40 or 50 years in a Federal prison was probably the last thing he wanted.

Also, no word yet on whether he ever regained consciousness. I would at least hope that he was informed of his utter failure to kill anyone, or even seriously injure them, before he checked out.

Oh, well. None of that is all that weighty. Just some things to think about. I can't say it's a bad outcome, either.

159 SteveC  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:33:48am

re: #157 sattv4u2

At one point I typed grapeshit and never caught it. But the professor did!


You had a professor that caught grapeshit?

All I had were ones that would occasionally toss and catch a frisbee!!
//

We didn't see it too often. Apparently you have to catch the grapes....!

160 sattv4u2  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:34:25am

re: #158 SixDegrees

And, right now at least, we know nothing at all about his motives.

The Associated Press reports there are internet postings suggesting the suspected gunman harbored resentment for the U.S. military and had doubts about the 9/11 attacks. In an internet posting under the screen name "JPatrickBedell," he wrote he was determined to see justice for the 1991 death of a Marine in California. The death was ruled a suicide. The writer said the case would be a step toward revealing the truth behind the September 11th terrorist attacks.

[Link: www.wusa9.com...]

9/11 Trooferism runs deep

161 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:34:41am

re: #152 Cannadian Club Akbar

My radio just said a California congressman, against gay marriage, was arrested for DUI. After leaving a gay bar. Not gonna bother to look for it.

I thought about this a little more after seeing it last night. If the congressman has a bunch of gay friends, gay bars are fantastic fun places to hang out. Maybe he doesn't hate gays, just doesn't believe in gay marriage.

It could happen.

*blink*

162 sattv4u2  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:35:53am

OUT
"see" you all in about 3 hours

163 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:36:08am

re: #146 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Heh...

Heh, indeed.

The Wizard of Oz is high on my list of favorite movies. But I never really trusted those damn munchkins. Dancing and singing because some old woman just got crushed by a house. Then showing Dorothy the way out of town, without so much as a single offer of actual help.

I'd watch my back if I were ever in Munchkinland.

164 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:36:26am

re: #161 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I thought about this a little more after seeing it last night. If the congressman has a bunch of gay friends, gay bars are fantastic fun places to hang out. Maybe he doesn't hate gays, just doesn't believe in gay marriage.

It could happen.

*blink*

I was a gay guys date for a Christmas party once. Not kidding.

165 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:36:54am

re: #153 MandyManners

Fiercely backed by allied Iran, Syria on Thursday denied hiding nuclear activities from the world and said Israel was the source of suspicious uranium particles found at a Syrian desert complex, allegedly bombed two years ago by IAF jets.

No, dood! It's CHEMTRAILS!!!

Watch for the usual Israel-haters to ignore the previously published evidence and give this delusional propoganda credence.

166 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:37:37am

re: #163 SixDegrees

Heh, indeed.

The Wizard of Oz is high on my list of favorite movies. But I never really trusted those damn munchkins. Dancing and singing because some old woman just got crushed by a house. Then showing Dorothy the way out of town, without so much as a single offer of actual help.

I'd watch my back if I were ever in Munchkinland.

It's the flying monkeys who get to me, both here and in the movie.

167 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:38:02am

re: #163 SixDegrees

If you like the movie, read the "Snopes" page on the coincidences and stuff surrounding the filming. Some weird stuff happened...

Of particular interest to me was about Professor Marvel's coat.

168 sattv4u2  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:38:12am

re: #163 SixDegrees

I'd watch my back if I were ever in Munchkinland.

Well ,,, the back of your knees, at the very least!!

(tiny person joke!!)

169 sattv4u2  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:38:54am

re: #164 Cannadian Club Akbar

I was a gay guys date for a Christmas party once. Not kidding.

did you hang around under his mistletoe!?!?

170 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:39:19am

re: #160 sattv4u2

And, right now at least, we know nothing at all about his motives.

The Associated Press reports there are internet postings suggesting the suspected gunman harbored resentment for the U.S. military and had doubts about the 9/11 attacks. In an internet posting under the screen name "JPatrickBedell," he wrote he was determined to see justice for the 1991 death of a Marine in California. The death was ruled a suicide. The writer said the case would be a step toward revealing the truth behind the September 11th terrorist attacks.

[Link: www.wusa9.com...]

9/11 Trooferism runs deep

I've seen that; saw it posted here yesterday, in fact. Still waiting for actual confirmation, which seems likely to arrive, but I haven't seen it yet.

As someone who got served a subpoena because I had the same name as they guy they were actually trying to serve, and who spent far too much time getting the matter sorted out (and making fools of the attorneys who had the thing issued, in the process) I'm kinda touchy about the whole 'matching names' thing.

171 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:39:24am

re: #165 Spare O'Lake

Watch for the usual Israel-haters to ignore the previously published evidence and give this delusional propoganda credence.

Speaking of the devil, ElBaradei's run against Mubarak is picking up steam.

Great. Just what the world needs: another friend of Iran running a nation.

172 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:39:30am

re: #164 Cannadian Club Akbar

I was a gay guys date once, and didn't know it. I just thought we were going to go and hang out.

Wasn't at camp either.

173 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:40:08am

re: #169 sattv4u2

did you hang around under his mistletoe!?!?

No. I did an 8 ball with the restaurant owners wife off the bar.

174 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:40:34am

re: #169 sattv4u2

did you hang around under his mistletoe!?!?

That wasn't mistletoe.

175 SteveC  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:41:08am

The Appreciative Cashier

I was next. "I have to tell you," I said to her after her kind greeting, "that how you handled that gentleman was great. You made his day with your kind words."

"Thank you, but I really do mean it. My grandfather and my father were both in the Army, and my brother is in Iraq right now. I can't even imagine what it would be like to go to war, you know?" She went on to tell me that every customer who goes through her line wearing some form of armed-service clothing gets a "thank you" from her.

176 sattv4u2  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:41:11am

re: #172 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I was a gay guys date once, and didn't know it. I just thought we were going to go and hang out.

Wasn't at camp either.

Should have been a clue when he showed up to pick you up with assless chaps on!

just sayin!

177 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:41:21am

re: #166 MandyManners

It's the flying monkeys who get to me, both here and in the movie.

The Flying Monkeys terrified me as a child. They are by far the most concrete embodiment of evil ever to appear on the screen.

My attitude has mellowed somewhat over the years. Nowadays, I view them as a template for our next generation of genetically modified warriors.

178 shiplord kirel  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:41:38am

This was the second high-profile suicide attack by a conspiracy-oriented nut in less than a month. There are millions of these people out there, and they are as committed as they are separated from reality.

The conspiracy culture has a striking ability to incite homicidal grievance among people who, on the face of it, would seem to have very little to complain about. The Austin kamikaze was affluent enough to afford a private plane and a nice house, yet he thought the IRS was destroying him. The Pentagon shooter was apparently pretty well off too and came from a prosperous suburban background.

Where have we heard this before? Take a good look at the origins of the 9-11 hijackers.

179 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:41:58am

re: #173 Cannadian Club Akbar

No. I did an 8 ball with the restaurant owners wife off the bar.

I dated a district attorney for a while who did that when he graduated from law school.

180 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:42:59am

re: #177 SixDegrees

The Flying Monkeys terrified me as a child. They are by far the most concrete embodiment of evil ever to appear on the screen.

My attitude has mellowed somewhat over the years. Nowadays, I view them as a template for our next generation of genetically modified warriors.

I see them as people who try to rope you into responding to others and/or get involved in a manufacutered controversy.

181 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:43:55am

re: #179 MandyManners

I dated a district attorney for a while who did that when he graduated from law school.

I had a friend I lived with who was a dealer. Never less than 10 ounces in the house.

182 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:44:58am

re: #180 MandyManners

I see them as people who try to rope you into responding to others and/or get involved in a manufacutered controversy.

Complete with shit-flinging.

183 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:45:17am

re: #171 MandyManners

Speaking of the devil, ElBaradei's run against Mubarak is picking up steam.

Great. Just what the world needs: another friend of Iran running a nation.

Islamofascists and their dhimmified hordes so often seem to speak bullshit to truth. I honestly doubt whether they know the difference.

184 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:46:35am

re: #176 sattv4u2

It was kind of like a sit-com thingy. I had no idea he was gay, he introduced me to some friends who were obviously gay.

Later he said, "You had no idea I was gay, did you."

I said (don't remember the exact words), "Huh?"

My "Gay-dar" is legendary.

185 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:47:11am

re: #181 Cannadian Club Akbar

I had a friend I lived with who was a dealer. Never less than 10 ounces in the house.

Oh, my stars. That would've scared the shit out of me.

186 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:47:29am

re: #182 SixDegrees

Complete with shit-flinging.

That's what flying monkeys do.

187 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:47:31am

re: #178 shiplord kirel

At least lefties just go sit in trees and bang drums and shit.

188 SteveC  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:47:47am

Um! Just got a note from a friend who's son had heart surgery two days ago. He's done really well, but last night the pain stuff didn't seem to be doing anything for him and now he's popped a fever. :(

A doctor once told me that if you got a fever post-op it was almost ALWAYS on day three, because the body has dealt with the shock of surgery and is beginning to fight back. I'm hopeful that he's just got the 3rd day fever.

They'll still do all the bloodwork... I would too, just to be sure, but all those pokes aren't gonna be much for a 4 year old (or his parents).

189 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:47:58am

re: #183 Spare O'Lake

Islamofascists and their dhimmified hordes so often seem to speak bullshit to truth. I honestly doubt whether they know the difference.

Delusion abounds.

190 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:48:54am

re: #184 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

It was kind of like a sit-com thingy. I had no idea he was gay, he introduced me to some friends who were obviously gay.

Later he said, "You had no idea I was gay, did you."

I said (don't remember the exact words), "Huh?"

My "Gay-dar" is legendary.

I've never been gay, but if I was sentenced to a long prison term, I would take a class.

191 sandbox  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:49:12am

re: #189 MandyManners

That's why it's inherently destabilizing to allow Iran to get nukes.

192 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:50:08am

re: #190 Cannadian Club Akbar

I was asked if I'd have sex with a man for a million dollars. I immediately said, "Hell yeah." I figured if I had to go to prison, I'd be doing it for free. So I may as well take "one for the team" and get some money out of it.

193 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:50:34am

re: #188 SteveC

Um! Just got a note from a friend who's son had heart surgery two days ago. He's done really well, but last night the pain stuff didn't seem to be doing anything for him and now he's popped a fever. :(

A doctor once told me that if you got a fever post-op it was almost ALWAYS on day three, because the body has dealt with the shock of surgery and is beginning to fight back. I'm hopeful that he's just got the 3rd day fever.

They'll still do all the bloodwork... I would too, just to be sure, but all those pokes aren't gonna be much for a 4 year old (or his parents).

Oh, poor child! I'll keep him and his parents in my thoughts and prayers.

194 SteveC  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:50:41am

re: #190 Cannadian Club Akbar

I've never been gay, but if I was sentenced to a long prison term, I would take a class.

You can take classes in being gay? I'm assuming there is also a license you could obtain?!?!

I'll be damned!

195 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:51:08am

re: #191 sandbox

That's why it's inherently destabilizing to allow Iran to get nukes.

Yet many think that MAD will stop ShortShit.

196 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:51:51am

re: #194 SteveC

You can take classes in being gay? I'm assuming there is also a license you could obtain?!?!

I'll be damned!

Not sure if they have classes, but I know the handshake.:)

197 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:56:36am

re: #178 shiplord kirel

This was the second high-profile suicide attack by a conspiracy-oriented nut in less than a month. There are millions of these people out there, and they are as committed as they are separated from reality.

The conspiracy culture has a striking ability to incite homicidal grievance among people who, on the face of it, would seem to have very little to complain about. The Austin kamikaze was affluent enough to afford a private plane and a nice house, yet he thought the IRS was destroying him. The Pentagon shooter was apparently pretty well off too and came from a prosperous suburban background.

Where have we heard this before? Take a good look at the origins of the 9-11 hijackers.

The Pentagon shooter was an Islamofascist pigfuck who became a suicide killer in the Jihadist cause. The left tried to paint him as a solo nutcase but the truth came out. Slipping him in with the conspiracy nutcases doesn't wash.

198 SteveC  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:57:46am

Sue the Quacks!

The father of a 7-year-old Chicago boy who was diagnosed as a toddler with autism has sued the Naperville and Florida doctors who treated his son, alleging they harmed the child with "dangerous and unnecessary experimental treatments."

199 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:58:49am

re: #197 Spare O'Lake

The Pentagon shooter was an Islamofascist pigfuck who became a suicide killer in the Jihadist cause. The left tried to paint him as a solo nutcase but the truth came out. Slipping him in with the conspiracy nutcases doesn't wash.

Bedell?

200 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:00:16am

re: #199 MandyManners

Bedell?

OOPS! (Ft. Hood)
*whacks self on head*

201 freetoken  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:00:28am

re: #197 Spare O'Lake

If you're speaking of Bedell, have you read what he allegedly wrote, or better yet, listened to the audio?

202 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:01:22am

re: #197 Spare O'Lake

The Pentagon shooter was an Islamofascist pigfuck who became a suicide killer in the Jihadist cause. The left tried to paint him as a solo nutcase but the truth came out. Slipping him in with the conspiracy nutcases doesn't wash.

Ft. Hood.
My bad.

203 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:01:57am

re: #200 Spare O'Lake

OOPS! (Ft. Hood)
*whacks self on head*

Too many shooters to keep straight. Don't sweat it.

204 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:02:31am

re: #201 freetoken

If you're speaking of Bedell, have you read what he allegedly wrote, or better yet, listened to the audio?

Senior moment, sorry.

205 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:03:53am

Spongebob Squarepants is on.

206 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:06:29am
207 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:08:06am

re: #206 Cannadian Club Akbar

WTF?
[Link: www.heraldtribune.com...]

I bet he was a wing-nut.

208 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:08:37am

re: #206 Cannadian Club Akbar

WTF?
[Link: www.heraldtribune.com...]

My first thought is rabies.

My second, more chilling thought is that the Otter Rebellion has finally begun in earnest.

209 Only The Lurker Knows  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:09:02am
210 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:10:15am

This is interesting-- apologies if posted already in the thread about it--
The source of that Roberts rumour appears to be some law prof at Georgetown Law who was giving a lecture and made this torturous example; his students started tweeting, texting, and emailing the 'rumour' immediately, before he revealed it was a joke during that same lecture:

Anatomy of a Rumor: The Story Behind Chief Justice John Roberts’s ‘Retirement’

Like many a promising legal career, the Roberts resignation rumor traces its origins to a 1L class at Georgetown University Law Center….

Here’s an account of what went down in Professor Peter Tague’s criminal law class this morning, from a 1L at Georgetown Law:


and

Note the timestamps on the Radar posts. The first one came out at 6:10 a.m., i.e., the Pacific Time equivalent of 9:10 a.m. Eastern time. The retraction came out at 6:36 a.m., i.e., the
Pacific Time equivalent of 9:36 a.m. Eastern — shortly after Professor Tague let his class in on the joke.
211 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:10:16am

re: #208 SixDegrees

My first thought is rabies.

My second, more chilling thought is that the Otter Rebellion has finally begun in earnest.

FREE THE OTTERS!

212 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:10:47am

Tonight on FOX- When Otters Attack.

213 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:16:37am

BRB.

214 Boogberg  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:18:36am

Jobs report in 10 minutes...

215 reine.de.tout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:18:39am

re: #207 MandyManners

I bet he was a wing-nut.

The otter or the man?

I need COFFEE.

Good morning, everyone.

216 SteveC  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:20:34am

Actual Study (NSFW)

Swinging high and low: Why do the testes hang at
different levels? A theory on surface area and thermoregulation.

*FACEPALM*

217 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:22:01am

Drive by post as I go to take my son to school -

David Brooks makes a good case compaing the New Left of the '60's to the Tea Party. [Link: www.nytimes.com...]

William

218 William Barnett-Lewis  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:22:35am

PIMF-
comparing not compaing

219 Boogberg  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:24:12am

re: #215 reine.de.tout

Mornin'.

Yes, coffee = GOOD. :)

220 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:27:59am

re: #214 Boogberg

Jobs report in 10 minutes...


Will unemployment be 8%? No? But I was promised.

221 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:29:39am

re: #192 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I was asked if I'd have sex with a man for a million dollars. I immediately said, "Hell yeah." I figured if I had to go to prison, I'd be doing it for free. So I may as well take "one for the team" and get some money out of it.

There was a comedian whose name escapes me who had a bit about that. His take was he could buy new friends. He also said for a million bucks he take it from Mike tyson on the dinner table during the family thanksgiving meal.

222 SteveC  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:31:19am

re: #221 RogueOne

There was a comedian whose name escapes me who had a bit about that. His take was he could buy new friends. He also said for a million bucks he take it from Mike tyson on the dinner table during the family thanksgiving meal.

While you are up, could you pass the biscuits?

223 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:31:21am

re: #210 iceweasel

This is interesting-- apologies if posted already in the thread about it--
The source of that Roberts rumour appears to be some law prof at Georgetown Law who was giving a lecture and made this torturous example; his students started tweeting, texting, and emailing the 'rumour' immediately, before he revealed it was a joke during that same lecture:

Anatomy of a Rumor: The Story Behind Chief Justice John Roberts’s ‘Retirement’

I read that, funny funny.

224 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:33:41am

re: #214 Boogberg

Jobs report in 10 minutes...

My radio just said 9.7%

225 Boogberg  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:34:03am

re: #220 Cannadian Club Akbar

Will unemployment be 8%? No? But I was promised.

Lol :D

Well, the market is reacting favorably (so far).

226 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:35:48am

re: #225 Boogberg

Lol :D

Well, the market is reacting favorably (so far).

The market isn't open.

227 Boogberg  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:38:50am

re: #226 Cannadian Club Akbar

The market isn't open.

It is for early trading (pre-market).

228 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:39:15am

re: #226 Cannadian Club Akbar

The market isn't open.

Futures are up, though. It'll probably be a good open.

9.7% is what it was last month. So the hole hasn't gotten any deeper. It may not seem like something to celebrate, but you take what you can get.

Actual job losses last month, 35000, were lower than expected. But that's largely because companies have already stripped themselves significantly; even an arterial wound eventually slows it's spurting and gushing to a slow seepage as blood volume decreases.

229 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:39:23am

re: #224 Cannadian Club Akbar

My radio just said 9.7%

It's the snows fault, it has nothing to do with our elected officials spending the last 10 months or so on nothing but health-care arguments. The non-focus on job creation is just a coincidence.

230 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:40:30am

re: #228 SixDegrees

The numbers are the same for now but they'll put out "revised" numbers later. I might be a tad cynical.

231 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:40:52am

Jobs not there;

People able and willing to work are shat on by the elite power structure of this country;

damn them.

232 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:41:18am

re: #230 RogueOne

The numbers are the same for now but they'll put out "revised" numbers later. I might be a tad cynical.

True enough. For now, though, the markets work with the information that's available.

233 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:41:34am

Focus on health care. This will get passed while you're not looking.
[Link: www.latimes.com...]

234 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:43:18am

This thread needs more dogs. I think someone posted this yesterday but I'm doing it again anyway.

235 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:44:36am

re: #207 MandyManners

I bet he was a wing-nut.

The otter is a very member of the weasel family.

236 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:45:01am

re: #235 Spare O'Lake

large

237 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:45:39am

We talked about the california rep who got busted leaving the gay bar but I missed this story:

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]


The Vatican was today rocked by a sex scandal reaching into Pope Benedict's household after a chorister was sacked for allegedly procuring male prostitutes for a papal gentleman-in-waiting.

Angelo Balducci, a Gentleman of His Holiness, was caught by police on a wiretap allegedly negotiating with Thomas Chinedu Ehiem, a 29-year-old Vatican chorister, over the specific physical details of men he wanted brought to him. Transcripts in the possession of the Guardian suggest that numerous men may have been procured for Balducci, at least one of whom was studying for the priesthood.

Ooops.

238 Boogberg  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:47:12am

re: #234 RogueOne

Neat! :)

239 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:48:42am

re: #237 RogueOne

We talked about the california rep who got busted leaving the gay bar but I missed this story:

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

Ooops.

Yech.

240 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:48:59am

re: #231 Ojoe

Jobs not there;

People able and willing to work are shat on by the elite power structure of this country;

damn them.

I'm thinking this may be about to get even worse.

The Administration has another "job stimulus" package about to launch. In this one, employers are "incentivized" to create jobs by receiving a complete break on their share of Social Security contributions for a year after hiring someone who's unemployed, and they also receive a significant tax credit (not a deduction) for doing so, a thousand or a few thousand dollars per hire.

The problem is, there's no provision against generating layoffs in order to create positions that can be filled with new hires. I expect the end result here may be to dump higher-paid workers and fill their positions with the new, tax-advantaged hires. The company saves money on both ends: they get significant tax breaks, and they pay the new hires less than those whose jobs they're replacing.

Maybe this problem will occur to someone before the bleeding starts. But I doubt it. Heaven forbid that a requirement be inserted to insist on net job gains at a company in order for them to be eligible for the tax breaks, or that openings created by layoffs be older than, say, a year before becoming eligible.

241 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:49:46am

re: #237 RogueOne

We talked about the california rep who got busted leaving the gay bar but I missed this story:

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

Ooops.

Very, very messed up.

242 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:50:38am

re: #234 RogueOne

This thread needs more dogs. I think someone posted this yesterday but I'm doing it again anyway.


[Video]

Be careful what you wish for:

243 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:50:44am

Gotta go aggravate some real folks now
Have a good day, and TGIF!

244 Ericus58  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:53:01am

re: #240 SixDegrees

Very interesting take, hadn't seen this thought.
The bottom line is that unless a company has the ability to afford the cost of - let's say 45K a year - to have another employee added to their payroll already in place, the prospects of a business hiring anyone for perhaps 8K worth of tax incentive is not worth it nor prudent.

245 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:53:46am

re: #240 SixDegrees

Great.

Anyway, I'm an architect but at the moment I'm not designing much & generating construction jobs, instead I'm driving trucks for the food bank.

That's how bad it is.

And thanks for your analysis, that's a good insight.

246 Boogberg  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:54:36am

re: #240 SixDegrees


The problem is, there's no provision against generating layoffs in order to create positions that can be filled with new hires. I expect the end result here may be to dump higher-paid workers and fill their positions with the new, tax-advantaged hires. The company saves money on both ends: they get significant tax breaks, and they pay the new hires less than those whose jobs they're replacing.

When I mentioned the tax breaks to my boss a few days ago, he (jokingly) said he should do that very thing. I.E. fire all of us and hire us back. lol

247 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:54:48am

re: #235 Spare O'Lake

And here I thought you'd been cured of that crap.
Guess not.

248 Only The Lurker Knows  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:58:00am

Now happening.

Several killed in Arizona bus crash

*snip*

The wreck occurred south of Phoenix at milepost 173 on I-10 and blocked both westbound lanes of traffic

249 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:59:11am

Here's part of the reason I have such little respect for cops. I posted this story when it happened, cops come across black kid "loitering" and holding a heavy object....a bottle of mt. dew so they beat him senseless and charge him with resisting arrest, assault, and loitering. When it came before the judge this week the judge tossed all the charges. So how does the FOP respond....?

[Link: www.wpxi.com...]


PITTSBURGH -- All charges have been dropped against a Creative and Performing Arts High School student who has accused three city police officers of beating him during his arrest.

The FBI continues to investigate civil rights allegations made by Jordan Miles, 18, who was charged with assaulting the officers on Jan. 12 in Homewood.

On Thursday, Miles appeared in court and all charges against him were dropped.

Police charged Miles because, they said, he fought with the officers who thought a "heavy object" in his coat was a gun. It turned out to be a bottle of Mountain Dew.

In court, when asked what crime Miles committed, arresting officer Michael Saldutte testified, "Loitering. Because of the high crime area and standing next to the house, it could have been a burglary."
......
"We disagree completely with the decision," said Chuck Hanlon, vice president of the Fraternal Order of Police Lodge 1. "We will vigorously lobby the D.A. to re-file the charges."

If there were actual karma in this world Chuck would get hit by a truck.

251 Ericus58  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:02:07am

The headlines at CNBC are "Futures gain after solid jobs report"

Seriously? Feb's numbers are a loss of 36,000. Solid? That is erosion.

Reports and articles I've read in the past puts the number of required of jobs created each month for real growth at 300K, to bring those unemployed back in and make the new workers joining the workforce.

252 reine.de.tout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:04:26am

re: #240 SixDegrees

I'm thinking this may be about to get even worse.

The Administration has another "job stimulus" package about to launch. In this one, employers are "incentivized" to create jobs by receiving a complete break on their share of Social Security contributions for a year after hiring someone who's unemployed, and they also receive a significant tax credit (not a deduction) for doing so, a thousand or a few thousand dollars per hire.

The problem is, there's no provision against generating layoffs in order to create positions that can be filled with new hires. I expect the end result here may be to dump higher-paid workers and fill their positions with the new, tax-advantaged hires. The company saves money on both ends: they get significant tax breaks, and they pay the new hires less than those whose jobs they're replacing.

Maybe this problem will occur to someone before the bleeding starts. But I doubt it. Heaven forbid that a requirement be inserted to insist on net job gains at a company in order for them to be eligible for the tax breaks, or that openings created by layoffs be older than, say, a year before becoming eligible.

I worked in HR for 30 years, and honestly - I've never known a company to layoff experienced employees in order to hire new, lower cost employees.

For one thing - "lower cost" employees are not necessarily lower cost. Training costs for new employees can be huge (depending on the business). Then there is the cost of errors made by new and inexperienced employees. Then, of course, there are unemployment costs that have to be paid by the employer for the laid off employees. It's just often not worth the lower salary costs to let experienced employees go in favor of newer lower paid employees.

Most employers know these things.

253 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:05:42am

re: #251 Ericus58

The headlines at CNBC are "Futures gain after solid jobs report"

Seriously? Feb's numbers are a loss of 36,000. Solid? That is erosion.

Reports and articles I've read in the past puts the number of required of jobs created each month for real growth at 300K, to bring those unemployed back in and make the new workers joining the workforce.

Futures are up because the number of jobs lost was less than what was expected. It is actually worse compared with last month's numbers. Calling it "solid" is hyperbole, to be polite.

254 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:05:53am

re: #251 Ericus58

The headlines at CNBC are "Futures gain after solid jobs report"

Seriously? Feb's numbers are a loss of 36,000. Solid? That is erosion.

Reports and articles I've read in the past puts the number of required of jobs created each month for real growth at 300K, to bring those unemployed back in and make the new workers joining the workforce.

Question. What would the headline read if were a Republican administration? But there is no media bias. And for the record, I don't watch any of them, including Fox.

255 SasyMomaCat  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:06:14am

quick drive by until I get caught up on the thread between catching up at work.

Has anyone seen/posted/discussed this article here? Saudi Bloggers Shatter the Kingdom's Silence and Censorship

This may be old news, but it was the first time these blogs had been brought to my attention. For those inclined to disregard anything from Fox news, please consider looking at this article or at least the featured blogs anyway. Technology and internet communication continue to be powerful and nearly unstoppable weapons in the fight against true oppression and human rights violation.

Now, to the top of the thread to play catch-up . . .

256 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:07:53am

re: #255 SasyMomaCat

Internet will do more for freedom than a million soldiers acting in the name of freedom.

At least until governments get their fingers as deep into the internet as they want.

257 oldegeezr  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:08:07am

re: #237 RogueOne

Balducci, Balducci, Balducci…

I’ve heard that name before…is Angelo any relation to Coronado…?

258 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:09:53am

re: #252 reine.de.tout

I worked in HR for 30 years, and honestly - I've never known a company to layoff experienced employees in order to hire new, lower cost employees.

For one thing - "lower cost" employees are not necessarily lower cost. Training costs for new employees can be huge (depending on the business). Then there is the cost of errors made by new and inexperienced employees. Then, of course, there are unemployment costs that have to be paid by the employer for the laid off employees. It's just often not worth the lower salary costs to let experienced employees go in favor of newer lower paid employees.

Most employers know these things.

My spouses employer started a new corporate system which created 38 new slots and did away with 30. When it was all finished the majority of the 30 people they let go came back in one of the new 38 slots, with their seniority intact. It cost them some in payroll costs but the savings of hiring skilled and trained employees was worth much more.

259 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:10:38am

re: #252 reine.de.tout

I worked in HR for 30 years, and honestly - I've never known a company to layoff experienced employees in order to hire new, lower cost employees.

For one thing - "lower cost" employees are not necessarily lower cost. Training costs for new employees can be huge (depending on the business). Then there is the cost of errors made by new and inexperienced employees. Then, of course, there are unemployment costs that have to be paid by the employer for the laid off employees. It's just often not worth the lower salary costs to let experienced employees go in favor of newer lower paid employees.

Most employers know these things.

We'll see. Where I work, some managers have been floating exactly this idea for some time now - hire a bunch of fresh-out college grads to replace the "expensive" older employees. And this has been circulating since before the stimulus plan; now, their ideas come with an actual monetary incentive.

You're correct that cost savings may be illusory in reality. Believe me, though - there are a lot of less than bright managers out there, and a short-term horizon that encourages feather-bedding and immediate gain with the intention of moving on before the downside becomes apparent.

I would be a lot more comfortable if there were safeguards such as those I mentioned put in place. If they're not needed, well, they don't cost anything and can simply be ignored. If they are needed, but aren't there, the damage will be impossible to repair.

260 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:11:59am

re: #256 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Not everyone wants freedom.

261 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:12:59am

re: #260 Ojoe

Hey! Speaking of... I am giving you permission to link the tower cam. Please!?!? I wanna save it to my favorites.

262 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:14:02am

re: #257 oldegeezr

Balducci, Balducci, Balducci…

I’ve heard that name before…is Angelo any relation to Coronado…?

I have no idea.

263 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:15:24am

re: #261 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh, I found it pretty easily.

Thanks for introducing me.

264 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:15:45am

re: #261 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Let's see if the sun is up there yet:
Still dark at the towercam...

265 Ericus58  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:15:51am

re: #254 Cannadian Club Akbar

Question. What would the headline read if were a Republican administration? But there is no media bias. And for the record, I don't watch any of them, including Fox.

Truthfully, I think the headline would be the same.
The business/financial networks would rather have a rosier picture painted, and so would any administration.
But I do think the current administration dids get more of a pass at 'details' in their first year than the previous, though I have seen a shift as we start the 2nd year.

266 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:16:18am

re: #263 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh, I found it pretty easily.

Thanks for introducing me.

Google pretty tricky, huh?
/

267 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:16:31am

Good morning all!

More information on the Pentagon shooter released.

Seems the Lizard speculation last night was JPatrick Bedell was correct. In fact, the article really didn't say antying I didn't learn, here, last night. A sorry soul who should have been on meds.

HOw are you-all?

268 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:16:39am

re: #266 Cannadian Club Akbar

Yeah... duh.

269 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:17:13am

re: #252 reine.de.tout

Reine-- while I don't doubt your testimony at all, it does depend on the industry, the company, and as Six Degrees mentioned, how smart the managers are.
I don't at all disagree with you that it's smarter to keep old staff rather than train new people, and more cost-effective in the long term, lots of industries (especially retail/sales ones) have made it a practice for a long time to dump older employees in favour of hiring newer ones that can come in at a lower starting rate (rather than giving the percentage range raise to an older employee).

retail/sales is especially vulnerable to this because every year it's about the expenditures vs last year, and they assume a short 'learning curve' for training. But it's been happening in many industries for a while now.

270 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:17:30am

re: #264 Ojoe

Let's see if the sun is up there yet:
Still dark at the towercam...

Try the Old Faithful Webcam in the meantime.

271 reine.de.tout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:19:23am

re: #259 SixDegrees

We'll see. Where I work, some managers have been floating exactly this idea for some time now - hire a bunch of fresh-out college grads to replace the "expensive" older employees. And this has been circulating since before the stimulus plan; now, their ideas come with an actual monetary incentive.

You're correct that cost savings may be illusory in reality. Believe me, though - there are a lot of less than bright managers out there, and a short-term horizon that encourages feather-bedding and immediate gain with the intention of moving on before the downside becomes apparent.

I would be a lot more comfortable if there were safeguards such as those I mentioned put in place. If they're not needed, well, they don't cost anything and can simply be ignored. If they are needed, but aren't there, the damage will be impossible to repair.

I don't deny that there are terrible companies and managers out there who do awful things to employees. But it does a company no good in the long run to get a reputation as one that treats its employees poorly. The company will pay in terms of turnover and general lack of morale, resulting in lower productivity. Some companies are perfectly willing to take the hit. Many are not.

But any smart manager will run these ideas through their HR office, which should provide them with information that will probably show the company will not stand to gain much be participating in a lay 'em off, hire new ones sort of plan of action.

The sort of protection you mention would be a good thing to have; I just think that a large massive lay-off of longer term experienced employees is not necessarily in the cards

272 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:19:36am

re: #264 Ojoe

That's darker than the inside of a cow.

273 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:20:19am

re: #272 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That's darker than the inside of a cow.

How many cows have you been in?

274 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:20:37am

Morning everyone. Good day for me. I'm leaving work early this afternoon and I have a gig tonight.

275 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:20:39am

re: #270 SixDegrees

Fear Yellowstone.

Fear it.

276 Ericus58  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:23:01am

Must attend to matters - will be on and off.
May your Friday led you into a wonderful weekend all.

277 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:23:20am

I need a win today.

278 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:23:31am

re: #275 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Fear Yellowstone.

Fear it.

I really, really love Yellowstone, and the entire region. We have a long, happy history, more sparse than I would like, but rich nonetheless.

Geyser basin, early in the morning before the crowds really roll in, is an amazing place.

279 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:24:40am

re: #278 SixDegrees

Gonna go boom zap bang and many other Batman words one day.

Gonna end and concern for global warming though.

280 Only The Lurker Knows  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:25:52am

re: #278 SixDegrees

Other than the fact it is a ticking time-bomb it is a nice place to visit.

281 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:25:55am

re: #278 SixDegrees

Looks kind of foreboding.

282 reine.de.tout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:25:59am

re: #269 iceweasel

Reine-- while I don't doubt your testimony at all, it does depend on the industry, the company, and as Six Degrees mentioned, how smart the managers are.
I don't at all disagree with you that it's smarter to keep old staff rather than train new people, and more cost-effective in the long term, lots of industries (especially retail/sales ones) have made it a practice for a long time to dump older employees in favour of hiring newer ones that can come in at a lower starting rate (rather than giving the percentage range raise to an older employee).

retail/sales is especially vulnerable to this because every year it's about the expenditures vs last year, and they assume a short 'learning curve' for training. But it's been happening in many industries for a while now.

Yes, there are many industries where this does happen, I don't deny it. But on a large, all across the country scale, all types of business scale, I just don't think it will happen.

Retail sales is a job category that is also heavily dependent on the peaks and valleys of purchasing patterns. And yes, there is assumed to be a shorter learning curve for folks in those jobs. There are a lot of factors at play in something like retail sales jobs.

I'll also say that states laws regarding lay-offs and filling the resulting positions are different from state to state. I believe some states have some restrictions on a company doing a reduction in force layoff, then turning around and immediately filling the vacancies. Plus, as I said, companies have to pay for unemployment for laid off employees, adding to their cost of laying off and rehiring. Smart employers would do well to keep their RIF numbers low, to reduce their unemployment costs. A termination for cause doesn't result in unemployment eligibility for the employee; whereas a termination for a reduction in force does.

283 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:27:00am

re: #280 Bubblehead II

Other than the fact it is a ticking time-bomb it is a nice place to visit.

Isn't there a super volcano under it?

284 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:27:23am

re: #279 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

any...

285 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:27:45am

re: #279 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Gonna go boom zap bang and many other Batman words one day.

Gonna end and concern for global warming though.

Are you gonna do the Batman dance?

Image: batusi.png

286 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:27:45am

re: #283 Cannadian Club Akbar

Isn't there a super volcano under it?

Is there a conspiracy, end-times theory to cover that?

287 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:28:14am

re: #282 reine.de.tout

Yes, there are many industries where this does happen, I don't deny it. But on a large, all across the country scale, all types of business scale, I just don't think it will happen.

Oh yes, I entirely agree. It won't happen.
Agree with the rest of your post too, btw; I excerpted for brevity and to underline that central point.

288 Only The Lurker Knows  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:28:56am

re: #283 Cannadian Club Akbar

Yep.

Yellowstone Caldera

289 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:29:22am

re: #288 Bubblehead II

Yep.

Yellowstone Caldera

(*poof*)

290 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:29:33am

re: #279 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

re: #280 Bubblehead II

Well, it's been a ticking time bomb for many millenia now. If and when it does pop off, it won't matter much whether you're right there at ringside or not; pretty much the whole of North America will feel the effects.

I would happily retire there.

291 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:30:26am

gotta go, have a great morning all!

292 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:31:22am

re: #290 SixDegrees

May as well be at ringside for the big show, huh?

293 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:32:38am

re: #215 reine.de.tout

The otter or the man?

I need COFFEE.

Good morning, everyone.

The otter.

294 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:33:22am

re: #235 Spare O'Lake

The otter is a very member of the weasel family.

w00t

295 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:33:59am

re: #283 Cannadian Club Akbar

Isn't there a super volcano under it?

Pretty much the entire park is a volcanic caldera - a collapsed eruption cone roughly 35 miles across. As seen by the geysers - and thousands of other fascinating hydrothermal features in the region - it remains quite active.

A huge chunk of the history of America is also writ large across the landscape both in the park and in the surrounding area.

I should plan another trip out there. It's been too long.

296 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:34:14am

re: #252 reine.de.tout

Yeah, and from a management perspective inside the company, I cringed every time we had to lay of a senior guy during this recession, because I knew exactly how hard he'd be to replace. I've kept tabs on every single guy who's been let go who was an awesome performer, and I've managed to get two of them back in the company by noticing new openings that fit them, and letting the recruiter know.

Our company also has been very generous with layoff benefits-- we lay people off on the first so they have a whole month to do medical stuff before COBRA, and generally give people three month's salary. We do this because our company is a little volatile, and layoffs weren't uncommon even before the recession.

This means that we've managed to keep an overall staff quality that's amazing. It's my favorite place I've ever worked, for that reason.

/now if we could quit making stuff that we haven't actually found a market for, that'd be great.

297 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:34:47am

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. I see that the Obama Administration is about to completely flip on the idea of holding the KSM 9/11 trials in NYC and that they may put him and all the rest in tribunals after all.

What a mess the Administration made of this - all to push the symbolism of trial over common sense and that the government - including Congress and the Courts - established a tribunal system that would guarantee the rights of detainees in a way that wouldn't grant them complete access to federal courts to spread their message and which would take into account the fact that these detainees were captured under less than ideal conditions from a legal standpoint (ie battlefields, captured without Mirandization, etc.)

298 Only The Lurker Knows  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:35:07am

re: #286 ggt

Actually, I think there is.

YELLOWSTONE SUPERVOLCANO GETTING READY TO BLOW ITS CORK

"Though at the end of the film, during the last half hour, Tom Brokaw and workers at Yellowstone Park tried to make it seem like nothing is going to happen, it is already known that the scientists who are monitoring what is going on at Yellowstone is being withheld from the public."

299 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:35:41am

re: #295 SixDegrees

I'll be heading out there later this year... and I can't wait (now if only the Yellowstone supervolcano cooperates and doens't go boom until well after I'm long gone from this Earth....)

300 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:36:40am

re: #294 MandyManners

w00t

Quit it.

I've been ignoring your passive aggressive comments and your baiting in this thread, as I generally do.
Now I am not.
I realise you're butthurt about being called out for linking holocaust deniers and antisemitic crap about Soros oh so very recently, but maybe you should channel your butthurt in more constructive ways.

301 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:37:37am

re: #297 lawhawk

Takes a brave man to admit his mistake. Takes an even braver man to laugh at that man...

The Administration will certainly gain my admiration for turning around. Still pissed about the original decision though.

302 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:38:24am

Out for a bit.

303 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:38:27am

re: #283 Cannadian Club Akbar

And enough geothermal energy to electrify the entire west.

304 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:38:44am

re: #292 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

May as well be at ringside for the big show, huh?

My only regret is that the next major eruption will almost certainly destroy the Old Faithful Inn, the world's largest log structure and a jaw-dropping architectural masterwork of the first order that was recently completely renovated just after it's 100th anniversary. The renovation, which ran into several tens of millions of dollars, was paid for completely through private donations, despite it's location on National Park land.

Pictures don't do this place justice. It has to be seen in person. You'll encounter a knot of people just inside the main entrance, stopped dead in their tracks as the view to the enormous lobby opens before them. Annoying if you're staying there, but completely understandable.

305 reine.de.tout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:39:57am

re: #296 Obdicut

Yeah, and from a management perspective inside the company, I cringed every time we had to lay of a senior guy during this recession, because I knew exactly how hard he'd be to replace. I've kept tabs on every single guy who's been let go who was an awesome performer, and I've managed to get two of them back in the company by noticing new openings that fit them, and letting the recruiter know.

Our company also has been very generous with layoff benefits-- we lay people off on the first so they have a whole month to do medical stuff before COBRA, and generally give people three month's salary. We do this because our company is a little volatile, and layoffs weren't uncommon even before the recession.

This means that we've managed to keep an overall staff quality that's amazing. It's my favorite place I've ever worked, for that reason.

/now if we could quit making stuff that we haven't actually found a market for, that'd be great.

You see- even though there are frequent layoffs, your company tries to treat people rightf, and you've managed to keep high quality staff and - here's what I was trying to say earlier - because you have high quality staff and your company does what it can to treat employees well - it's your favorite place!

This will work in a company's favor, despite higher salaries needed to retain employees, in the form of higher productivity and creativity, better quality of ideas, reduced training costs, reduced costs from errors - there's a whole slew of reasons for companies to treat employees well.

I'm retired now, and love the freedom my retirement has given me. But I do miss HR work even though most employees really really hate HR. The work was always interesting, something new every day - it's a problem-solving job (if there were no problems, no one would need an HR office!), and so we were busy all the time with something interesting to figure out, research, etc.

306 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:40:34am

re: #297 lawhawk

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. I see that the Obama Administration is about to completely flip on the idea of holding the KSM 9/11 trials in NYC and that they may put him and all the rest in tribunals after all.

What a mess the Administration made of this - all to push the symbolism of trial over common sense and that the government - including Congress and the Courts - established a tribunal system that would guarantee the rights of detainees in a way that wouldn't grant them complete access to federal courts to spread their message and which would take into account the fact that these detainees were captured under less than ideal conditions from a legal standpoint (ie battlefields, captured without Mirandization, etc.)

good morning.

and BINGO

307 Randall Gross  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:41:57am

re: #297 lawhawk

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. I see that the Obama Administration is about to completely flip on the idea of holding the KSM 9/11 trials in NYC and that they may put him and all the rest in tribunals after all.

What a mess the Administration made of this - all to push the symbolism of trial over common sense and that the government - including Congress and the Courts - established a tribunal system that would guarantee the rights of detainees in a way that wouldn't grant them complete access to federal courts to spread their message and which would take into account the fact that these detainees were captured under less than ideal conditions from a legal standpoint (ie battlefields, captured without Mirandization, etc.)

At this point I don't even care if it's a trial or a tribunal anymore: just try the bastiches we have solid cases on & hang the ones found guilty already...

308 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:43:21am

re: #307 Thanos

Yes, and then put their heads on pikes to send a barbaric message (one that they might actually understand) to the remaining barbarians.

309 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:43:38am

re: #299 lawhawk

I'll be heading out there later this year... and I can't wait (now if only the Yellowstone supervolcano cooperates and doens't go boom until well after I'm long gone from this Earth...)

You'll love it. Take lots of film. Or memory cards. Or whatever. Try to have at least one dinner at the Old Faithful Inn, but make your reservations now, if possible - they book up well in advance.

310 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:44:01am

Prosecutor refuses to charge Detention officer even though the guy choked a 17-yr old to death on video and the city paid out $10 million to the kids family.

[Link: www.wsmv.com...]


ASHLAND CITY, Tenn. -- A videotape that has never been seen by the public shows the events that lead up to the death of a 17-year-old while he was in custody at a treatment center. The tape raises questions about the district attorney’s decision not to file any criminal charges.

Omega Leach died in June 2007 at what was at the time known as Chad Youth Center in Montgomery County.

The medical examiner concluded Omega died of strangulation in a homicide.

The surveillance video shot by a camera at Chad shows Omega and a staff member, Randall Rae, wrestling in a hallway outside Omega's room. Rae, at one point, has both his hands around the boy’s neck as Rae has Omega pinned down on the floor.

The altercation would later move to Omega's room, outside of camera range.

Video of the story:
[Link: www.wsmv.com...]

311 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:44:08am

re: #305 reine.de.tout

That being said:

THis is one out of the five companies I've worked at that has the sense to do that.

At EA, you were laid off with zero notice, a security guard escorting you out. Or they just disabled your badge, and you had to call security to get in to get your stuff and go out. So unnecessarily humiliating.

So out of five companies, two of them very established, this current one is the only one that's displayed that behavior. I think the other should have, but unfortunately corporations don't evolve like biological organisms. They only reach whatever level of fitness their management can give them, and pervasively sucky management never really tends to get better, as far as I've seen.

312 oldegeezr  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:45:02am

re: #287 iceweasel

I work in the wireless [radio frequency] voice and data communications field.

I recall about thirty five years ago my employer used his own personal savings to make the payroll one month when accounts receivable were down, so he wouldn’t lose any of his trained employees.

It takes two or three years, sometimes more, to get folks up to an unsupervised level of competence.

313 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:45:19am

A 45-year-old woman, charged with ending a domestic dispute by killing her 26-year-old husband of five days, is a registered lobbyist for a group fighting domestic violence.

Arelisha Bridges was ordered held without bond in the Fulton County Jail. She is scheduled for a preliminary hearing later this month on charges of felony murder, murder, aggravated assault and possession of a firearm during the commission of a felony.

Officials said Bridges claimed she was unemployed. But records show she is a lobbyist for an organization called the National Declaration for Domestic Violence Order; its Web site says the group is pushing legislation to create a database of those convicted of sex crimes or domestic abuse.


SNIP

314 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:45:21am
315 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:46:04am

re: #310 RogueOne

That's a decision I'd like to ask the DA about. Very loudly. With a microphone.

Jee-sus. The medical examiner found it was a homicide. That means someone killed him. Even if he's innocent, he is obviously indictable. I hope a lot of people see this.

316 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:46:18am

re: #304 SixDegrees

My only regret is that the next major eruption will almost certainly destroy the Old Faithful Inn, the world's largest log structure and a jaw-dropping architectural masterwork of the first order that was recently completely renovated just after it's 100th anniversary. The renovation, which ran into several tens of millions of dollars, was paid for completely through private donations, despite it's location on National Park land.

Pictures don't do this place justice. It has to be seen in person. You'll encounter a knot of people just inside the main entrance, stopped dead in their tracks as the view to the enormous lobby opens before them. Annoying if you're staying there, but completely understandable.


//i think i'll regret not seeing the sun for 4 years just a little more than the log cabin...but losing the cabin will be sad too...

317 Randall Gross  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:46:25am

re: #308 Ojoe

Yes, and then put their heads on pikes to send a barbaric message (one that they might actually understand) to the remaining barbarians.

Sorry, but I'm not down with that. It's extrajudicial and would make us every bit as barbaric as the Saudis, which plays to their strengths and reinforces their worldview, not ours. Hanging, lethal injection, whatever the swift punishment called for by law I'm ok with.

318 reine.de.tout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:46:26am

re: #311 Obdicut

That being said:

THis is one out of the five companies I've worked at that has the sense to do that.

At EA, you were laid off with zero notice, a security guard escorting you out. Or they just disabled your badge, and you had to call security to get in to get your stuff and go out. So unnecessarily humiliating.

So out of five companies, two of them very established, this current one is the only one that's displayed that behavior. I think the other should have, but unfortunately corporations don't evolve like biological organisms. They only reach whatever level of fitness their management can give them, and pervasively sucky management never really tends to get better, as far as I've seen.

Yeah, I've heard that about EA.
Just wrong, IMO.
It will hurt them eventually.

319 Seltzer123  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:47:15am

May I recommend a little blasphemy from Christopher Hitchens:

[Link: www.vanityfair.com...]

The video at the bottom of the page is worth watching.

320 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:47:28am

re: #313 MandyManners

From your link, which I posted here two days ago-- here's the part you SNIPPED

Bridges' group isn't among the prominent domestic violence lobbying groups in Georgia, said Kirsten Rambo, the executive director of the Georgia Commission on Family Violence.

"This is the first I've heard about that organization," Rambo said. "I certainly couldn't say if they were legitimate or not," she said, adding, "It's certainly a new name to me."

Bridges has filed sparse lobbying expenses, according to State Ethics Commission records. So far this year, she's reported spending $20 -- for parking while lobbying for the abuse database.

321 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:47:31am

For the lovebirds:

322 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:48:21am

re: #319 Seltzer123

Thanks. But when he called Mother Teresa a bitch, I stopped reading him.

323 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:48:29am

re: #305 reine.de.tout

You see- even though there are frequent layoffs, your company tries to treat people rightf, and you've managed to keep high quality staff and - here's what I was trying to say earlier - because you have high quality staff and your company does what it can to treat employees well - it's your favorite place!

This will work in a company's favor, despite higher salaries needed to retain employees, in the form of higher productivity and creativity, better quality of ideas, reduced training costs, reduced costs from errors - there's a whole slew of reasons for companies to treat employees well.

I'm retired now, and love the freedom my retirement has given me. But I do miss HR work even though most employees really really hate HR. The work was always interesting, something new every day - it's a problem-solving job (if there were no problems, no one would need an HR office!), and so we were busy all the time with something interesting to figure out, research, etc.

HR are often treated like the police, in my experience...unfairly distrusted and regarded with suspicion, but who do they run to when they need help?

you!

324 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:48:36am

Ronald Reagan famously said that the United States and the Soviet Union didn’t fear each other because they had nuclear weapons; they had nuclear weapons because they feared each other. This insight served as the basis for the Reagan administration’s rearming of America, both conventional and nuclear, and consequent victory in the Cold War.

The Obama administration, not surprisingly, has set out to reverse this winning policy and to begin dismantling America’s nuclear deterrent. This because the president and the far left pine for a world free of nuclear weapons.

“The existence of thousands of nuclear weapons is the most dangerous legacy of the Cold War,” Obama insisted in his April 5, 2009 Prague speech. “So today, I state clearly and with conviction America’s commitment to seek the peace and security of a world without nuclear weapons.”

Actually, the existence of thousands of nuclear weapons is not the most dangerous legacy of the Cold War; the rise of radical Islam is. Witness Iran, Afghanistan, and the proliferation of Wahhabi mosques and madrassas throughout Saudi Arabia and indeed, much of the Muslim world.

But while facts may be stubborn things for empirical-based thinkers like Reagan and the neoconservatives, they are of little use to the mushy-headed Left, which stubbornly clings to the ludicrous notion that military arms — and particularly nuclear weapons — are an inherent source of instability and danger.

In fact, as the Lexington Institute’s Dan Goure and other American strategists point out, the United States isn’t bothered at all by the fact that Great Britain, France, and even India have nuclear weapons. That’s because we know that none of these countries threaten us or our national security interests.

SNIP

325 stonemason  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:48:46am

re: #300 iceweasel

Quit it.

I've been ignoring your passive aggressive comments and your baiting in this thread, as I generally do.
Now I am not.
I realise you're butthurt about being called out for linking holocaust deniers and antisemitic crap about Soros oh so very recently, but maybe you should channel your butthurt in more constructive ways.


Very interesting that you use personal attacks to point out personal attacks.

Wishing everyone would stop...everyone.

326 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:49:04am

re: #314 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

This is a little more my style...

Sweet.

Whoa - expensive, too.

327 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:49:23am

re: #315 Obdicut

That's a decision I'd like to ask the DA about. Very loudly. With a microphone.

Jee-sus. The medical examiner found it was a homicide. That means someone killed him. Even if he's innocent, he is obviously indictable. I hope a lot of people see this.

The prosecutor has to have already seen the video. I'd like to hear his explanation for why he's decided not to prosecute when the video clearly shows the officer with both hands around his neck and choking the kid to death.

328 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:50:05am

re: #326 SixDegrees

Sweet.

Whoa - expensive, too.

You can show up, and hang out all day for free. I've done it.

329 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:50:11am

re: #43 RogueOne

...Because if you start swiping with a broad brush 4 of the 5 were left wing zealots. I have serious disagreements with the left wing of the libertarian party but I don't believe 99% of them are intent on killing the opposition.

You keep right on believing that, cupcake.

330 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:50:41am

re: #310 RogueOne

Prosecutor refuses to charge Detention officer even though the guy choked a 17-yr old to death on video and the city paid out $10 million to the kids family.

[Link: www.wsmv.com...]

Video of the story:
[Link: www.wsmv.com...]

Holy poop

331 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:50:52am

re: #317 Thanos

If the execution is painless, afterwards they won't feel a thing, more than can be said for those crushed to death in the towers, for instance.

But I guess I retain a bit of the primitive.

332 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:51:02am
Beautiful objects are wrought by study through effort, but ugly things are reaped automatically without toil.
— Democritus

He never saw any modern art from the 1913 Armory Show onwards.

333 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:51:23am

re: #329 Cato the Elder

You keep right on believing that, cupcake.

I know a hundred different libertarians and only one of us wants to run around shooting. That's 99%, right?

334 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:51:24am

re: #323 Aceofwhat?

Meh. EA's HR department are the stereotype of parasitic HR. They solely exist to protect the company from litigation-- not that they're actually good at doing that.

I worked a 60 hour shift at EA. I was there, continuously, for 60 hours. Three hour nap in there somewhere, but I was just asleep at my desk. HR knew about this, knew it was common practice, and would send out stern emails saying it wasn't to happen that they knew everyone ignored.

HR departments are only as good as the people in them, and if they're bad, the place is a really horrible one to work at.

I usually find HR just a good, reasonably sane middle ground who's just trying to stop things devolving into chaos.

335 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:52:49am

re: #334 Obdicut

Meh. EA's HR department are the stereotype of parasitic HR. They solely exist to protect the company from litigation-- not that they're actually good at doing that.

There is an awful lot of that going around. Seems to me the larger the company the worse it is.

336 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:53:03am

re: #327 RogueOne

I think the answer is sadly standard. In our effort to respect law enforcement and give them the power they need to operate, we wind up allowing them to reach a lower standard, and not give themselves the discipline that would help them in every aspect of their jobs.

Or to put it bluntly: DAs refusing to prosecute cops makes for sloppy cops who abuse the use of force. Even if we're doing it because 'he's a good cop', even if that cop is a hero, you're screwing yourself long-term by encouraging that kind of behavior.

337 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:53:07am

re: #316 Aceofwhat?

//i think i'll regret not seeing the sun for 4 years just a little more than the log cabin...but losing the cabin will be sad too...

There's something about that building that attracts fierce loyalty. It came within just a few hundred yards of being consumed during the 1988 Yellowstone fires; although an evacuation was ordered, a bunch of the staff stayed behind, and when embers from the blaze started drifting in and landing on the roof, they crawled out there with brooms to brush them off. A wind shift, literally at the last moment, spared the building.

338 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:54:42am

re: #334 Obdicut

Meh. EA's HR department are the stereotype of parasitic HR. They solely exist to protect the company from litigation-- not that they're actually good at doing that.

I worked a 60 hour shift at EA. I was there, continuously, for 60 hours. Three hour nap in there somewhere, but I was just asleep at my desk. HR knew about this, knew it was common practice, and would send out stern emails saying it wasn't to happen that they knew everyone ignored.

HR departments are only as good as the people in them, and if they're bad, the place is a really horrible one to work at.

I usually find HR just a good, reasonably sane middle ground who's just trying to stop things devolving into chaos.

All true, logical, cogent. I've found that even the most dedicated HR staff are often unfairly mistrusted by employees, so was just making a general statement about that. But when HR really is just the callous arm of a callous employer...yech.

339 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:55:08am

re: #335 RogueOne

There is an awful lot of that going around. Seems to me the larger the company the worse it is.

Veridian Dynamics

340 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:55:18am

re: #325 stonemason

Very interesting that you use personal attacks to point out personal attacks.

Wishing everyone would stop...everyone.

More bollocks.
Sorry, it's perfectly appropriate to point out to butthurt whiners that they are, in fact, butthurt whiners. Especially after ignoring their various provocations for several posts.

You'll simply have to piss off now, as it's clear your primary intent here is to cause trouble-- given that of all the many interesting topics and comments on this thread, THIS is what moved you to weigh in, and what you moved you to post.
Talk to someone else, shitstirrer.

341 Randall Gross  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:55:55am

re: #331 Ojoe

If the execution is painless, afterwards they won't feel a thing, more than can be said for those crushed to death in the towers, for instance.

But I guess I retain a bit of the primitive.

Understood, and it's natural to want to pander to feelings of anger, but in the end it's much more effective to note the execution with a short column inch or two of space. Putting a head on a pike is what they might do, posting a notice that x died from lethal injection at 00:02 am on such and such date is actually much colder, and therefor actually scarier to our enemies.

342 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:56:39am

re: #337 SixDegrees

There's something about that building that attracts fierce loyalty. It came within just a few hundred yards of being consumed during the 1988 Yellowstone fires; although an evacuation was ordered, a bunch of the staff stayed behind, and when embers from the blaze started drifting in and landing on the roof, they crawled out there with brooms to brush them off. A wind shift, literally at the last moment, spared the building.

A few years ago my dad, brother and I went to Vermont to ski & stay in the lodge that the actual family portrayed in "The Sound of Music" had built.

We didn't realize that it had burnt down some time ago and while rebuilt, very little original material remained. My Dad was crushed!

343 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:57:11am

re: #339 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Veridian Dynamics

I like that show.

344 reine.de.tout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:57:28am

re: #334 Obdicut

Meh. EA's HR department are the stereotype of parasitic HR. They solely exist to protect the company from litigation-- not that they're actually good at doing that.

I worked a 60 hour shift at EA. I was there, continuously, for 60 hours. Three hour nap in there somewhere, but I was just asleep at my desk. HR knew about this, knew it was common practice, and would send out stern emails saying it wasn't to happen that they knew everyone ignored.

HR departments are only as good as the people in them, and if they're bad, the place is a really horrible one to work at.

I usually find HR just a good, reasonably sane middle ground who's just trying to stop things devolving into chaos.

This is correct.
We wuz good, though.
Really good.
Last job I had was at the central HR; our job was to try to manage things well enough to keep 60,000 employees content and treated well.
Not easy. As I said, no one likes HR.

345 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:58:01am

re: #339 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Veridian Dynamics

bwahaha...never seen that before

346 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:58:47am

re: #339 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That's why I work at Initech...
347 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:59:25am

re: #345 Aceofwhat?

bwahaha...never seen that before

Check YouTube for some of their other "commercials."

348 Locker  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:59:48am

re: #340 iceweasel

Good morning my fellow foul mouthed lib. ;)

349 stonemason  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:59:50am

re: #340 iceweasel

More bollocks.
Sorry, it's perfectly appropriate to point out to butthurt whiners that they are, in fact, butthurt whiners. Especially after ignoring their various provocations for several posts.

You'll simply have to piss off now, as it's clear your primary intent here is to cause trouble-- given that of all the many interesting topics and comments on this thread, THIS is what moved you to weigh in, and what you moved you to post.
Talk to someone else, shitstirrer.


LOL

350 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 6:59:52am

re: #346 lawhawk

Mike Judge is a geniius.

351 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:00:25am

re: #350 RogueOne

"yeah... about thaaat."

352 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:00:46am

re: #347 SixDegrees

Check YouTube for some of their other "commercials."

One of my favorites:

353 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:00:50am

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

In times of trouble, it is always reassuring to think that we can count on Washington's support to get us out of a fix. OK, so the Americans have an irritating habit of turning up late, and then claiming all the glory, as was the case in the two world wars. But even today, in the killing fields of southern Afghanistan, the arrival of 30,000 US Marines three years after British troops first deployed to the region has immeasurably improved our chances of defeating the Taliban, as I discovered during my visit to Camp Bastion last week.

It is mainly to guarantee American support for our freedoms that, alone among the major European powers, Britain has little hesitation in signing up to fight America's wars. In the past decade, more than 500 of our personnel have sacrificed their lives, and thousands more suffered serious injuries, in wars that were primarily of Washington's making. From the moment Tony Blair declared that we would stand "shoulder to shoulder" with Washington in the immediate aftermath of September 11, Britain has committed its troops to places where other European powers fear to tread.

SNIP

Yet after this week's unwelcome, and unnecessary, intervention by Hillary Clinton, the US secretary of state, in the latest spat over the Falkland Islands, one begins to wonder just how committed the Americans would be if Britain were to find itself seriously threatened. Would Washington be prepared to commit its military might to defend our interests, or would it simply confine its response to firing a few barrages of cruise missiles?

SNIP

354 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:00:58am

re: #348 Locker

Good morning my fellow foul mouthed lib. ;)

Hello, Comrade. :) How goes the struggle?

S'up, baby?

355 reine.de.tout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:01:48am

re: #344 reine.de.tout

This is correct.
We wuz good, though.
Really good.
Last job I had was at the central HR; our job was to try to manage things well enough to keep 60,000 employees content and treated well.
Not easy. As I said, no one likes HR.

I'm gonna say a couple more things then I have chores to do.
An HR office is looking across the board at an entire workforce.
Whereas an employee only sees what affects him or her personally.

If you really want to piss off a workforce of 60,000 employees, the thing to do is to give 'em a pay raise!

Everyone thinks everybody else is getting too big a pay raise.
And everyone thinks their own particular pay raise is too little.

Happens every time.

356 Locker  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:01:54am

re: #354 iceweasel

Hello, Comrade. :) How goes the struggle?

S'up, baby?

Just chillin on a Friday watching this server as it's getting ready to explode. You still hanging in the NYC or are you guys currently mobile?

357 S'latch  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:02:15am

Democritus sounds like a creationist.

358 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:02:37am

re: #36 iceweasel

apologies if this has already been posted:

Indiana’s ‘sovereign citizens’ renounce their U.S. citizenship, claim to secede from the Union.

Similar groups of “sovereign citizens” have been reported in several other states as well.
ADL link for background info on the movement.

This has been going on for quite some time. McVeigh was affiliated with these people.

One of the ways you can actually "secede" (truly lose your citizenship) is to renounce it before a US consular officer overseas. Fact.

Not sure if a justice of the peace in Bumwad, OK, will do. But some of these people could actually find themselves forfeiting the rights and benefits of being an American citizen. For example, if they travel abroad.

I heard about a guy once, years ago, who actually did that. In Sweden. He instantly became stateless.

Swedes being Swedes, he's probably got a nice apartment in Varberg now, with a view of the Kattegat and a leggy blonde girlfriend.

Try that in, say, Texarkana.

359 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:04:34am

re: #333 RogueOne

I know a hundred different libertarians and only one of us wants to run around shooting. That's 99%, right?

I'm talking about your "4 out of 5 crazee shooters are left-wing zealots" theory, of course.

Way to put the blinders on.

360 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:05:40am

re: #353 MandyManners

ha! "turning up late and taking the credit". they wish we'd have stayed out of it, then?

"dang, we almost had those Nazis finished off..."

361 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:05:59am

So the yearlong production, set to close after Massachusetts's devastatingly negative Jan. 19 review, saw the curtain raised one last time. Obamacare lives.

After 34 speeches, three sharp electoral rebukes (Virginia, New Jersey and Massachusetts) and a seven-hour seminar, the president announced Wednesday his determination to make one last push to pass his health-care reform.

The final act was carefully choreographed. The rollout began a week earlier with a couple of shows of bipartisanship: a Feb. 25 Blair House "summit" with Republicans, followed five days later with a few concessions tossed the Republicans' way.

Show is the operative noun. Among the few Republican suggestions President Obama pretended to incorporate was tort reform. What did he suggest to address the plague of defensive medicine that a Massachusetts Medical Society study showed leads to about 25 percent of doctor referrals, tests and procedures being done for no medical reason? A few ridiculously insignificant demonstration projects amounting to one-half of one-hundredth of 1 percent of the cost of his health-care bill.

As for the Blair House seminar, its theatrical quality was obvious even before it began. The Democrats had already decided to go for a purely partisan bill. Obama signaled precisely that intent at the end of the summit show -- then dramatically spelled it out just six days later in his 35th health-care speech: He is going for the party-line vote.

SNIP

362 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:06:32am

re: #358 Cato the Elder

This has been going on for quite some time. McVeigh was affiliated with these people.

One of the ways you can actually "secede" (truly lose your citizenship) is to renounce it before a US consular officer overseas. Fact.

Not sure if a justice of the peace in Bumwad, OK, will do. But some of these people could actually find themselves forfeiting the rights and benefits of being an American citizen. For example, if they travel abroad.

I heard about a guy once, years ago, who actually did that. In Sweden. He instantly became stateless.

Swedes being Swedes, he's probably got a nice apartment in Varberg now, with a view of the Kattegat and a leggy blonde girlfriend.

Try that in, say, Texarkana.

Leggy blonde Swedes are that desperate?

363 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:06:35am

re: #359 Cato the Elder

I'm talking about your "4 out of 5 crazee shooters are left-wing zealots" theory, of course.

Way to put the blinders on.

Crazy shooters have always struck me as being...crazy. They're left any ideological axis far behind, and are completely off the grid.

364 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:07:01am

re: #360 Aceofwhat?

ha! "turning up late and taking the credit". they wish we'd have stayed out of it, then?

"dang, we almost had those Nazis finished off..."

Do you agree with us not backing Britain?

365 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:07:18am

re: #361 MandyManners

Yeah. Because the Massachusetts election was a referendum on HCR, and not the complete dumbass Democrat who blew the election.

366 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:07:33am

re: #363 SixDegrees

Crazy shooters have always struck me as being...crazy. They're left any ideological axis far behind, and are completely off the grid.

Not.

367 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:08:21am

re: #356 Locker

Just chillin on a Friday watching this server as it's getting ready to explode. You still hanging in the NYC or are you guys currently mobile?

I'm in NYC and looks like Jimmah-ski can get here very soon! Like next week, i think--he's collating all his data for the visa people. Then he'll hang here in NYC for as long as it takes for the Brit Consulate to grant me the spousal visa.

They may find out I'm a commie, so we'll see. However, in interesting LGF history, although we are not the first couple to meet here and get married, I do believe we're the first libs to do so-- and I'm fairly certain this is the first time that LGF has been mentioned in a visa app to the British Consulate. Or any, for that matter, when applying for a marriage visa.

Can I get a hell yeah for LGF on that? YES WE CAN! (ha!)

368 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:08:25am

re: #363 SixDegrees

Crazy shooters have always struck me as being...crazy. They're left any ideological axis far behind, and are completely off the grid.

Yeah that's definitely not true. The guy who gunned down 2 police officers recently in Pittsburgh definitely knew what his ideology was. As did the guy who gunned down the abortion doctor in Kansas.

369 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:09:33am

Oh dear oh dear.

Here we go with the "ideology has nothing to do with it" theory again.

Tell that to Bill Ayers.

Tell that to Tim McVeigh, if you can find him in Hell under that pile of roasting Nazis.

370 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:09:54am

re: #355 reine.de.tout

I'm gonna say a couple more things then I have chores to do.
An HR office is looking across the board at an entire workforce.
Whereas an employee only sees what affects him or her personally.

If you really want to piss off a workforce of 60,000 employees, the thing to do is to give 'em a pay raise!

Everyone thinks everybody else is getting too big a pay raise.
And everyone thinks their own particular pay raise is too little.

Happens every time.

I gave each of my managers their raises personally, along with a 'this-is-how-we-think-you're-doing' meeting...they did the same with the managers who worked for them, who did the same for the employees who worked for them.

It's a great opportunity for an extra coaching session...folks listen harder when you're offering advice that can impact next year's raise...

At a well-run business, HR shouldn't even have to go there!

371 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:10:13am

re: #367 iceweasel

You two should have a blast in NYC! It's a fun town, especially if you stick around for St. Patrick's day with the parades and parties all over town.

372 Only The Lurker Knows  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:10:19am

Well time to call it a day and get some ZZZZZs. Gawd I hate swing shift.

373 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:10:42am

re: #364 MandyManners

Do you agree with us not backing Britain?

Haven't thought about it enough yet...still chuckling at the first part.

Promise to finish my coffee and then think get back to you, though!

374 NJDhockeyfan  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:11:00am

re: #358 Cato the Elder

Vermont actually has a few candidates for governor, lieutenant governor, and state senate who want Vermont to succeed.

Vermont Secession Movement: Nine Statewide Candidates Push To Leave Union


SHELBURNE, Vt. — Peter Garritano thinks it's time for Vermont to call it quits with America.

The way the 54-year-old automobile salesman sees it, the "empire" is about to implode and tiny Vermont can lead the way by becoming its own independent republic. So he's running for lieutenant governor, topping a slate of secession-minded candidates seeking statewide offices this year.

Their name: Vermont Independence Day.

"The only hope is to just say, 'Look, this isn't working for us. We want to start fresh again, with a real democracy,'" Garritano said. "I think that's the answer. Hopefully, it won't take another horrible economic breakdown to realize that the people running things don't look out for the little guy, or us, or the soldiers. It's all about profit and getting the last drops of oil on Earth and trampling people's rights."

Garritano, gubernatorial candidate Dennis P. Steele and seven candidates for state Senate seats plan to declare their candidacies Friday.

Their cause isn't new: It's the latest incarnation of a movement that's bubbled in Vermont and elsewhere for years. Alaska, Hawaii, New Hampshire and Texas all have made noise about seceding, to no avail.

Their method is: Organizers say it's the first time since the Civil War that a secession movement has fielded a slate of candidates for statewide office, although individual pro-secession candidates have run before.

375 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:11:08am

Unethical behavior by lawmakers helped Democrats win control of the Capitol in the 2006 elections, and the same issue could come back to haunt the party this November.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, faced with new and ongoing allegations of ethical lapses by some Democrats, vigorously defended her party's record Thursday and said that she'd taken strong steps to clean up the House of Representatives during her three-year tenure.

Watchdog groups say, however, that Pelosi's actions have fallen woefully short of House Democrats' promise to "drain the swamp" of unethical behavior, a vow they emphasized when they won control of the House in 2006 after Republican corruption scandals centered on disgraced lobbyist Jack Abramoff. Now Republicans see an important campaign issue emerging for November's congressional elections.

SNIP

Scroll down a bit to get the full flavor.

376 oldegeezr  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:11:17am

re: #325 stonemason

“…Wishing everyone would stop...everyone.”

I donnoe…experience says; when ladies are yelling at each other they aren’t yelling at you or me…!
Hehehe…

See what I said…
Believe me next time...!

377 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:11:49am

re: #369 Cato the Elder

Oh dear oh dear.

Here we go with the "ideology has nothing to do with it" theory again.

Tell that to Bill Ayers.

Tell that to Tim McVeigh, if you can find him in Hell under that pile of roasting Nazis.

I know. and yet neither threaten the viability of my particular opinions on life. peculiar, isn't it?

378 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:11:58am

re: #22 iceweasel

I bumped into Fenway_Park elseweb a couple of weeks ago. AFAICT, sore feelings from the Massachusetts election carried over into this year, and boiled over in a delayed reaction.

379 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:12:00am

re: #374 NJDhockeyfan

Vermont actually has a few candidates for governor, lieutenant governor, and state senate who want Vermont to succeed.

Vermont Secession Movement: Nine Statewide Candidates Push To Leave Union

It's only noteworthy if they're Republicans.

380 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:12:09am

re: #334 Obdicut

Meh....snip

I worked a 60 hour shift at EA. I was there, continuously, for 60 hours. Three hour nap in there somewhere, but I was just asleep at my desk. HR knew about this, knew it was common practice, and would send out stern emails saying it wasn't to happen that they knew everyone ignored.

The joke is--that BS won't save them if it can be shown that supervision was aware of illegal practices and didn't discipline workers for "overenthusiasm". The Labor Dept is on to these old scams. There is however, a concept of "FLRA exempt"--managers of a level that have essentially volunteered for self-abuse. Morning. all.

381 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:13:47am

re: #367 iceweasel

amen! (whoops, you're atheist)

hell yea! (whoops, you're atheist)

umm...

you go, girl!

(i kid!...i kid!)

382 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:14:20am

Prime Minister Gordon Brown has said the 2003 war was "right", as he gives evidence to the UK's Iraq inquiry.

He insisted he had not been kept in the dark by his predecessor Tony Blair and was fully "in line" with the invasion.

His own intelligence briefings had convinced him that Iraq was a threat that "had to be dealt with", he said.

But the main issue for him was that Iraq was in breach of UN resolutions - and that "rogue states" could not be allowed to flout international law.

SNIP

383 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:14:20am

re: #368 drcordell

Yeah that's definitely not true. The guy who gunned down 2 police officers recently in Pittsburgh definitely knew what his ideology was. As did the guy who gunned down the abortion doctor in Kansas.

I disagree. After weeks of trying to make sense of Roeder's statements, I finally gave up. They are completely incoherent and rambling. In particular, they are internally inconsistent, especially when attempting to reconcile overt violence with the messages of peace, love and forgiveness that permeate Christianity.

It's easy to trace all this back to an ideology, but it's one that was left behind long ago in favor of incoherent madness.

Not sure which case you're referring to in the case of Pittsburgh.

384 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:14:20am

Turkey is threatening negative diplomatic consequences for a pending Congressional vote on resolution branding the Turks responsible for the Armenian genocide.

A U.S. congressional committee approved the measure Thursday. The 23-22 vote sends the measure to the full House of Representatives, where prospects for passage are uncertain. Minutes after the vote, Turkey withdrew its ambassador to the U.S.

Historians estimate that up to 1.5 million Armenians were killed by Ottoman Turks around the time of World War I, an event widely viewed by scholars as the first genocide of the 20th century. Turkey denies that the deaths constituted genocide, saying the toll has been inflated and those killed were victims of civil war and unrest.

President Barack Obama's administration had been silent about the resolution until shortly before the vote when it said it opposed its passage. Turkey wants stronger action to block the resolution.

"The picture shows that the U.S. administration did not put enough weight behind the issue," Davutoglu told reporters. "We are seriously disturbed by the result."

"We expect the U.S. administration to, as of now, display more effective efforts. Otherwise the picture ahead will not be a positive one," he said. He complained of a lack of "strategic vision" in Washington.

Turkey denies the history of its ancien regime and doesn't quite understand the nature of how the US political system operates. They think that Obama can wave his hand and put the resolution to an end. That's not how it works.

385 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:14:39am

re: #371 lawhawk

You two should have a blast in NYC! It's a fun town, especially if you stick around for St. Patrick's day with the parades and parties all over town.

Cheers, lawhawk!
I'm a native new yorker. :)
Frankly I consider St Pat's amateur night in NYC.
The best St Pat's I ever had was in a little local bar in a small town in AZ, totally populated by locals, who were incredibly kind and generous and super friendly to me and my friend.

386 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:14:53am

re: #365 drcordell

Yeah. Because the Massachusetts election was a referendum on HCR, and not the complete dumbass Democrat who blew the election.

fair to say it was both, methinks.

387 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:16:05am

re: #378 The Sanity Inspector

I bumped into Fenway_Park elseweb a couple of weeks ago. AFAICT, sore feelings from the Massachusetts election carried over into this year, and boiled over in a delayed reaction.

I don't know what his deal is, and I liked Fenway.

388 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:16:40am

re: #384 lawhawk

Turkey is threatening negative diplomatic consequences for a pending Congressional vote on resolution branding the Turks responsible for the Armenian genocide.

Turkey denies the history of its ancien regime and doesn't quite understand the nature of how the US political system operates. They think that Obama can wave his hand and put the resolution to an end. That's not how it works.

The one issue I have is with the chance that Turkey will deny us use of their airspace.

389 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:17:04am

re: #380 Decatur Deb

The joke is--that BS won't save them if it can be shown that supervision was aware of illegal practices and didn't discipline workers for "overenthusiasm". The Labor Dept is on to these old scams. There is however, a concept of "FLRA exempt"--managers of a level that have essentially volunteered for self-abuse. Morning. all.

Yep. >40 work weeks without compensatory overtime aren't as hard to prove as most think. lawyers like these suits...the evidence is pretty easy to assemble.

390 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:17:31am

re: #375 MandyManners

unethical behavior in Washington D.C.? NO, say it ain't so . . .

391 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:18:34am

re: #389 Aceofwhat?

Yep. >40 work weeks without compensatory overtime aren't as hard to prove as most think. lawyers like these suits...the evidence is pretty easy to assemble.

Love dem 'puters. And some idiot always talks about it in emails.

392 Locker  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:19:10am

re: #367 iceweasel

You probably shouldn't have posted that as it will now be proof that LGF really is KOS! Liberals? Married?? What's next? Dogs and cats, living together? Mass hysteria?

393 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:19:32am

re: #363 SixDegrees

Crazy shooters have always struck me as being...crazy. They're left any ideological axis far behind, and are completely off the grid.

Their ideological axis is "I don't need professional help".

394 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:19:53am

re: #388 MandyManners

The one issue I have is with the chance that Turkey will deny us use of their airspace.

And there might be a kebab embargo!

395 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:20:16am

re: #361 MandyManners

So the yearlong production, set to close after Massachusetts's devastatingly negative Jan. 19 review, saw the curtain raised one last time. Obamacare lives.

SNIP

That's why I felt, even during the campaign, that O!'s promise to televise the healthcare reform negotiations would be counter-productive. They couldn't help but play to the cameras, it's the nature of the beast. Let them have their smoke-filled rooms, their cigarettes, their profanity-laden outbursts of frustration, their exploring what-ifs that would not go over well if aired in public, etc. They'd get more done that way, and some of it might even be constructive.

396 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:20:17am

re: #374 NJDhockeyfan

Vermont actually has a few candidates for governor, lieutenant governor, and state senate who want Vermont to succeed.

Vermont Secession Movement: Nine Statewide Candidates Push To Leave Union

the same state is anti-nuclear power, too. quite the conglomeration of thought patterns they have going on there.

the skiing is quite nice, though.

397 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:21:13am

re: #377 Aceofwhat?

I know. and yet neither threaten the viability of my particular opinions on life. peculiar, isn't it?

Perhaps because your God is not an ideology.

398 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:21:14am

re: #392 Locker

You probably shouldn't have posted that as it will now be proof that LGF really is KOS! Liberals? Married?? What's next? Dogs and cats, living together? Mass hysteria?

LGF is either the sane world patrolling the asylum wire, or a safe-room in the asylum. Haven't nailed it down yet.

399 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:21:18am

re: #391 Decatur Deb

Love dem 'puters. And some idiot always talks about it in emails.

yep. email sent at 8am and email sent at 7pm...not rocket science, that!

400 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:21:51am

re: #386 Aceofwhat?

fair to say it was both, methinks.

Well the data doesn't back that up. Here's Ezra Klein's analysis of the situation:
[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

The results (pdf) make it untenable to argue that the election had nothing to do with national issues in general or health-care reform in particular. But it makes it similarly hard to argue that the state is firmly opposed to health-care reform, or that Scott Brown's election is mandate against the bill.

401 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:21:59am

White House advisers are considering recommending alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed be tried in a military court, not a civilian one in New York, a senior administration official confirmed Friday.

This would be an about face for the Obama administration which has consistently insisted trying Mohammed in civilian court would be a powerful symbol of U.S. rule of law.

In November 2009 Attorney General Eric Holder announced his intention to do just that. But a firestorm of criticism erupted from New York officials who did not want the trial held in Manhattan, and from Republican lawmakers who did not want a civilian trial.

If the president accepts this recommendation, his administration would be reversing itself on two fronts, the location of the trial and the type of trial.

SNIP

They were for it before they were against it. Or, is it that they were against it before they were for it?

402 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:22:06am

re: #397 Cato the Elder

Perhaps because your God is not an ideology.

nailed it

403 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:22:27am

re: #374 NJDhockeyfan

Vermont actually has a few candidates for governor, lieutenant governor, and state senate who want Vermont to succeed.

Vermont Secession Movement: Nine Statewide Candidates Push To Leave Union

I want Vermont to succeed, too. Hell, I even want California to succeed.

Secession is another matter.

404 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:22:47am

re: #397 Cato the Elder

Funny. I can't read the words "your God" without hearing Edward G. Robinson saying it in my head.

405 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:23:11am

re: #401 MandyManners

White House advisers are considering recommending alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed be tried in a military court, not a civilian one in New York, a senior administration official confirmed Friday.

SNIP

They were for it before they were against it. Or, is it that they were against it before they were for it?

They were for it until a bunch of fucking idiot fearmongers like yourself convinced America's dumber half that the terrorists "win" if we try them in court.

406 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:24:43am

re: #404 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Funny. I can't read the words "your God" without hearing Edward G. Robinson saying it in my head.

Heh.

Might be time to change my avatar.

407 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:26:27am

re: #406 SixDegrees

heh..

"Where's your god now, Moses. Hmeyah!"

408 darthstar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:26:38am

re: #401 MandyManners

White House advisers are considering recommending alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed be tried in a military court, not a civilian one in New York, a senior administration official confirmed Friday.

SNIP

They were for it before they were against it. Or, is it that they were against it before they were for it?

They should try him in a civilian court in a small town in the middle of Nebraska. I'm sure they'd find an impartial (enough) jury, and as there aren't exactly a plethora of direct flights to Nebraska, chances are the 'threat of terror' would be greatly reduced.

409 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:27:02am

re: #406 SixDegrees

Heh.

Might be time to change my avatar.

Stop ragging on Mandy!

410 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:27:21am

re: #407 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

heh..

"Where's your god now, Moses. Hmeyah!"

Brilliant casting choice, especially with his well-established history of playing gangster characters.

411 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:27:44am

I still can't believe Obama is considering backtracking on trying KSM in New York. Does he not realize that if he gives the GOP the scalp that they have been screaming for, it's just going to empower them to fearmonger even more? I swear to GOD the Democrats are either complete fucking idiots, or secretly in collusion with the Republicans to put on a kabuki political theatre show.

412 oldegeezr  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:28:55am

re: #403 Cato the Elder

Spelling police and grammar Nazis’, abound…!

413 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:28:58am

re: #405 drcordell

They were for it until a bunch of fucking idiot fearmongers like yourself convinced America's dumber half that the terrorists "win" if we try them in court.

Exactly right. Frankly, Obama's three tier system for trying them is bullshit-- criminal trials for some, military tribunals when we lack evidence to convict them in a criminal court, and indefinite detention for still others without trial-- but pretending that having a military tribunal for KSM is some kind of victory is also massive bullshit. If we do wind up having one for him it's purely to satisfy the bedwetters and shut them up-- and they'll STILL persist in still claiming that Obama is 'weak' on terror.
Bah.

414 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:29:08am

re: #411 drcordell

'secretly in collusion with the Republicans to put on a kabuki political theatre show."

I think we have a winner!

415 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:29:36am

re: #411 drcordell

I still can't believe Obama is considering backtracking on trying KSM in New York. Does he not realize that if he gives the GOP the scalp that they have been screaming for, it's just going to empower them to fearmonger even more? I swear to GOD the Democrats are either complete fucking idiots, or secretly in collusion with the Republicans to put on a kabuki political theatre show.

Agreed.

416 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:29:42am

re: #408 darthstar

They should try him in a civilian court in a small town in the middle of Nebraska. I'm sure they'd find an impartial (enough) jury, and as there aren't exactly a plethora of direct flights to Nebraska, chances are the 'threat of terror' would be greatly reduced.

This person killed the citizens of most of the trading nations of the world. Why didn't he wind up at the Hague? --Lawhawk??

417 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:29:50am

re: #411 drcordell

Avatar - HAH!

418 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:30:03am

re: #414 ggt

I think we have a winner!

Yeah I'm beginning to think it's the only rational answer. How else can they possibly be this fucking stupid? It defies all logic.

419 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:30:19am

re: #408 darthstar

I've got to disagree on jurisdiction/forum grounds - it would be the wrong forum since the attacks were in NYC, DC, or PA. You could argue that the trials should be held in those related judicial districts (SDNY, VA, DC, PA), the jurisdictions where the attacks originated - Boston or Newark, NJ, but outside of those options, there isn't a relationship between them.

That's why I've argued that if you're going to have trials, NYC was the best option - with the most terror trial experience and the security capable of providing proper protection, but the optimal solution should have been tribunals in the first place especially since the Administration admitted that they'd be using tribunals for other detainees and that this would essentially be a show trial for KSM (who they'd hold regardless of the outcome of any trial).

420 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:31:36am

re: #416 Decatur Deb

This person killed the citizens of most of the trading nations of the world. Why didn't he wind up at the Hague? --Lawhawk??

He's not at the Hague because we spent the past 8 years under the Bush administration giving the finger to any and all international courts. And because the way we have rendered, detained and interrogated our detainees makes the evidence against them all but useless in a real courtroom.

421 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:31:50am

re: #333 RogueOne

I know a hundred different libertarians and only one of us wants to run around shooting.

"Us"?

Pick up the phone and call 911. Especially if it's you.

I promise, FEMA camps are actually pretty nice places to live.

422 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:31:54am

re: #418 drcordell

Yeah I'm beginning to think it's the only rational answer. How else can they possibly be this fucking stupid? It defies all logic.

It's all about feelings and votes.

423 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:34:05am

re: #411 drcordell

I still can't believe Obama is considering backtracking on trying KSM in New York. Does he not realize that if he gives the GOP the scalp that they have been screaming for, it's just going to empower them to fearmonger even more? I swear to GOD the Democrats are either complete fucking idiots, or secretly in collusion with the Republicans to put on a kabuki political theatre show.

I can, primarily because the decision that Holder and Obama made in the first place was so ill-considered that they would have no choice but to backtrack. The decision to bifurcate trials for some and tribunals to others would have resulted in additional lawsuits by those detainees who were pushed into tribunals that they were denied federal court trials and throwing the whole process into turmoil. The decision also ignored that the feds (executive, legislature, and courts) all processed and developed the tribunal system - include court challenges to tweak the tribunal system. That the Administration sought tribunals for some showed the fallacy that all detainees couldn't be tried in the same manner.

424 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:34:39am

re: #420 drcordell

He's not at the Hague because we spent the past 8 years under the Bush administration giving the finger to any and all international courts. And because the way we have rendered, detained and interrogated our detainees makes the evidence against them all but useless in a real courtroom.

Yep.
BTW, LOVE the avatar-- Gus802's work IIRC.

In fact, I love it so much that I want to use it also for a bit. Is that ok?

425 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:34:56am

re: #400 drcordell

this is the same paper that wrote

In a Feb. 26 editorial, we said Rep. Eric Cantor (R-Va.) was "posturing" during the Thursday health-care summit by stacking the voluminous Senate bill before him. Mr. Cantor says that he had the bill with him, well-tabbed, not for show but so that Republicans could respond if specific provisions of the bill came up for discussion. That makes sense, and we should not have characterized his purpose as we did.

heh. their fangs are showing...

but back to your point

add up the total "oppose vs support HCR". you will find a result out of character with the traditional vote tallies that republicans and democrats receive in Mass. ergo, opposition to HCR was one of many factors behind his election.

Where's CapeCoddah when i need her?

426 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:35:36am

re: #398 Decatur Deb

LGF is either the sane world patrolling the asylum wire, or a safe-room in the asylum. Haven't nailed it down yet.

did you lock the door on the way in?//

427 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:36:12am

re: #424 iceweasel

Yep.
BTW, LOVE the avatar-- Gus802's work IIRC.

In fact, I love it so much that I want to use it also for a bit. Is that ok?

Go right ahead, as you mentioned it's courtesy of Gus802. I still can't look at it without cracking up myself.

428 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:36:24am

re: #420 drcordell

Why should a terrorist who attacked the US and destroyed US property and killed thousands of Americans get tried in an international court? The US has jurisdiction and has the capability to determine the means for trial - whether in federal court or in a tribunal system. The tribunal system was an appropriate method considering all the evidenciary problems resulting from overseas capture, CIA actions, harsh interrogations, etc. and it still managed to preserve court access.

429 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:36:31am

re: #422 ggt

You can't "down-ding" Morris Albert!

430 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:37:42am

re: #374 NJDhockeyfan

Vermont actually has a few candidates for governor, lieutenant governor, and state senate who want Vermont to secede.

Vermont Secession Movement: Nine Statewide Candidates Push To Leave Union

No doubt a cynical ploy to appeal to bitter old hippies, clinging to their tie-dyes, healing crystals, and Richard Brautigan novels.

Discontent: the sign of a Serious Person. If you're Deep and Real and Concerned with the way things are, you're pissed off. Unless you're angry about taxes, race-based government policies and the inefficiencies of the public education system, in which case you are an Angry White Male who has to pick gravel out of your knuckles every night. Remember: the Right is full of people who are Resentful and Angry, but the Left is Pissed and Discontented, which is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.
-- James Lileks

431 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:37:50am

re: #405 drcordell

They were for it until a bunch of fucking idiot fearmongers like yourself convinced America's dumber half that the terrorists "win" if we try them in court.

just to get you on record...if i oppose the trial of our homey in civilian court, am i a fucking idiot fearmonger too?

432 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:37:50am

re: #429 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You can't "down-ding" Morris Albert!

I didn't. But he is what I think of when I see these politicians posturing for votes.

433 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:38:45am

re: #427 drcordell

Go right ahead, as you mentioned it's courtesy of Gus802. I still can't look at it without cracking up myself.

Who's the guy in the picture? Allah's brother Sam?

434 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:39:52am

re: #428 lawhawk

Why should a terrorist who attacked the US and destroyed US property and killed thousands of Americans get tried in an international court? The US has jurisdiction and has the capability to determine the means for trial - whether in federal court or in a tribunal system. The tribunal system was an appropriate method considering all the evidenciary problems resulting from overseas capture, CIA actions, harsh interrogations, etc. and it still managed to preserve court access.

I didn't suggest that we should have sent KSM to the Hague, I was merely responding to someone's question. That being said, I don't think it would necessarily be a bad idea because he is an international criminal in the truest sense of the word. There were hundreds of international victims of the 9/11 attacks, in addition to the thousands of Americans. Not to mention the Al Qaida attacks perpetrated in London and other international cities. Holding the trial internationally would also limit the ability of anti-American groups to paint the results of the trial as tainted by the "great satan." You're right that it's never going to happen though.

435 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:40:15am

re: #420 drcordell

He's not at the Hague because we spent the past 8 years under the Bush administration giving the finger to any and all international courts. And because the way we have rendered, detained and interrogated our detainees makes the evidence against them all but useless in a real courtroom.

He's not at the Hague because they're the Ford Pinto of court systems. Or at least, that's why I'm glad he's not at the Hague.

436 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:41:10am

re: #423 lawhawk

I can, primarily because the decision that Holder and Obama made in the first place was so ill-considered that

That Bush made the same decision. So did Clinton. We've tried and convicted at least 195 terrorists in the federal criminal system under them.
Or maybe we should look at the Bybee memo under Bush. That lays out an argument for the criminal-- not military-- trying and conviction of accused terrorists, and bumps the number up to over 300.

437 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:41:15am

I gotta go again.

Have a great day all!

438 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:42:23am

re: #434 drcordell

you may not have intended to suggest it. you did.

439 Locker  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:42:30am

re: #424 iceweasel

Yep.
BTW, LOVE the avatar-- Gus802's work IIRC.

In fact, I love it so much that I want to use it also for a bit. Is that ok?

Laugh that's hilarious and I hadn't noticed. I do admit, this morning driving in, that I was contemplating a new avatar featuring Calvin peeing on a certain user's name but that one is even better.

440 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:42:49am

re: #431 Aceofwhat?

just to get you on record...if i oppose the trial of our homey in civilian court, am i a fucking idiot fearmonger too?

There are certainly reasons why the trials would not be the best way to proceed. Lawhawk covered them in his last response, and they almost all have to do with the challenges we open ourselves up to when some terrorists are tried in court and others receive tribunals.

Unfortunately, none of those reasons have been mentioned in any of the mainstream discussion of this issue. The counter-point to Obama's proposal is "ZOMG THE TERRORISTS WILL KILL YOUR CHILDREN." Typical Cheney-ite fearmongering and lies, not reasoned opposition.

441 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:42:59am

re: #247 iceweasel

And here I thought you'd been cured of that crap.
Guess not.

Why so sensitive?
It's just a little harmless jibe.
Lighten up.

442 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:45:07am

re: #441 Spare O'Lake

Why so sensitive?
It's just a little harmless jibe.
Lighten up.

443 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:45:48am

re: #434 drcordell

Holding the trial internationally would also limit the ability of anti-American groups to paint the results of the trial as tainted by the "great satan." You're right that it's never going to happen though.

If our massive efforts to provide relief in countries swamped by natural disasters on a worldwide and routine basis doesn't pare back the "booga booga Satan America" crowd, letting the Hague screw up this trial isn't going to be the straw which overburdens the proverbial camel.

you heard it here first.

444 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:47:28am

re: #116 Cannadian Club Akbar

Upding for the joke. Down-ding for the typo.

445 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:47:51am

re: #441 Spare O'Lake

Then please, spare us, next time.
;)

446 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:47:54am

re: #436 iceweasel

That Bush made the same decision. So did Clinton. We've tried and convicted at least 195 terrorists in the federal criminal system under them.
Or maybe we should look at the Bybee memo under Bush. That lays out an argument for the criminal-- not military-- trying and conviction of accused terrorists, and bumps the number up to over 300.

Perhaps there is another consideration - where the individuals were arrested and captured. Most were on US soil and processed according to US criminal justice procedures.

And it ignores that some of those federal prosecutions didn't exactly end well for the US- Abdel Rahman was tried and convicted, but it turned out that his lawyer was passing secrets on to his followers (Lynne Stewart) and was convicted on such charges. That counts as a successful prosecution. Holy Land had retrial after an initial mistrial, but that would count as a successful prosecution.

I think that there is a very simple way to deal with these issues.

If a terrorist is captured overseas (CIA or military), they get tribunals because the criminal justice system didn't do the original intake - no Miranda, evidence is often lacking, etc.

If the terrorist is captured on US soil - US federal court trial - because it will be local law enforcement or the FBI that does the arrest and investigation according to federal criminal procedure and evidenciary standards.

US citizens captured - overseas or domestically - in terror ops would get federal trials.

447 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:48:44am

re: #434 drcordell

I didn't suggest that we should have sent KSM to the Hague, I was merely responding to someone's question. That being said, I don't think it would necessarily be a bad idea because he is an international criminal in the truest sense of the word. There were hundreds of international victims of the 9/11 attacks, in addition to the thousands of Americans. Not to mention the Al Qaida attacks perpetrated in London and other international cities. Holding the trial internationally would also limit the ability of anti-American groups to paint the results of the trial as tainted by the "great satan." You're right that it's never going to happen though.

The International Court system arrested Pinochet and Karadzic, but has always allowed Europe to warmly welcome Fidel Castro with open arms. So, so long as anti-Americanism is the animating genius of that continent, I don't trust them to do justice to America's enemies.

448 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:48:50am

re: #440 drcordell

There are certainly reasons why the trials would not be the best way to proceed. Lawhawk covered them in his last response, and they almost all have to do with the challenges we open ourselves up to when some terrorists are tried in court and others receive tribunals.

Unfortunately, none of those reasons have been mentioned in any of the mainstream discussion of this issue. The counter-point to Obama's proposal is "ZOMG THE TERRORISTS WILL KILL YOUR CHILDREN." Typical Cheney-ite fearmongering and lies, not reasoned opposition.

i suggest that perhaps the casting of a wider net would land you some principled opposition that goes a little deeper than ZOMG.

449 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:49:48am

re: #440 drcordell

There are certainly reasons why the trials would not be the best way to proceed. Lawhawk covered them in his last response, and they almost all have to do with the challenges we open ourselves up to when some terrorists are tried in court and others receive tribunals.

Unfortunately, none of those reasons have been mentioned in any of the mainstream discussion of this issue. The counter-point to Obama's proposal is "ZOMG THE TERRORISTS WILL KILL YOUR CHILDREN." Typical Cheney-ite fearmongering and lies, not reasoned opposition.

I find it amazing that none of the so called legal experts the media relies upon have brought that particular issue up in their discussions with the media since that is what any of the law firms doing work on behalf of the detainees would do.

450 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:50:51am

re: #439 Locker

Laugh that's hilarious and I hadn't noticed. I do admit, this morning driving in, that I was contemplating a new avatar featuring Calvin peeing on a certain user's name but that one is even better.

I unilaterally and summarily declare my new avatar the most awesome of the day, anyway.

So perhaps a universal genuflection aimed in my direction can help unite the rest of you behind true genius//

451 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:51:05am

re: #448 Aceofwhat?

i suggest that perhaps the casting of a wider net would land you some principled opposition that goes a little deeper than ZOMG.

Find me a quote from a Republican opposing the KSM trial that mentions the legal challenges it presents. All I've seen is "terrorists will escape and kill your family" and "New York City will be made a target."

452 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:51:45am

re: #450 Aceofwhat?

I unilaterally and summarily declare my new avatar the most awesome of the day, anyway.

So perhaps a universal genuflection aimed in my direction can help unite the rest of you behind true genius//

If your own hand doesn't try to strangle you, I just might...

///

453 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:52:19am

re: #449 lawhawk

I find it amazing that none of the so called legal experts the media relies upon have brought that particular issue up in their discussions with the media since that is what any of the law firms doing work on behalf of the detainees would do.

puzzling, indeed. I blame Cheney. The dark side remains strooong with him.

(because the alternative conclusion is that you are making good sense...)

454 Ericus58  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:52:19am

re: #329 Cato the Elder

You keep right on believing that, cupcake.

Hey, that was my nic for Ice and her's for me was "Craven Bastard".
Did you get permission to use that?

gosh, nothing is sacred around here ;)

Ice, we may disagree but I value your thought's as much as everyone else's.
And I had to smile at times during our exchange the other day. Good on us all.

455 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:52:44am

re: #452 drcordell

If your own hand doesn't try to strangle you, I just might...

///

that was well done

456 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:53:07am

re: #443 Aceofwhat?

If our massive efforts to provide relief in countries swamped by natural disasters on a worldwide and routine basis doesn't pare back the "booga booga Satan America" crowd, letting the Hague screw up this trial isn't going to be the straw which overburdens the proverbial camel.

you heard it here first.

We can't let Den Haag try KSM, because he was waterboarded 83 times and the fruit from that tree is poisoned. You heard it here for the 83rd time.

I'm waiting to see what happens with the Karadzic trial. If they can manage to get through it without him dying in jail first (viz. Milosevic), I'd say we ought to give them a try in the future.

Of course, trying KSM or an equivalent Islamofascist in the Netherlands would make them a target, so they might wuss out.

All in all, not a simple solution in sight.

457 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:53:35am

re: #455 Aceofwhat?

that was well done

One of the all-time classic films.

458 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:54:36am

woo hoo, my karma is down to below -100! I want to say I was at least -2,500 at one point?

459 Silvergirl  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:55:20am

After reading various articles on the Pentagon shooter and the comments following them, plus blog comments, I can't help seeing the strong push to categorize this guy and claim him as anything but one of us. Yes, personalities are formed by the families people we're born into, religions we follow, and ideologies we're drawn to, but we have to realize the good and sane people that make up our world. If someone is a member of the KKK, it's one thing. If they happen to be from one of our southern states, it's another. Left wing is one thing, and Bill Ayers is another. Right wing is one thing, Tim McVeigh is another. The energy expended on pushing these crazies away from having any identification with those beliefs we hold near and dear, and foisting the crazy onto those other guys is overblown. Where does it stop? I noticed from his birthdate that his astrological sign is Taurus. One article said the guns he used were a Sturm 9mm and a Taurus 9mm. Taurus again. All you Taurus people hang your heads. He's one of you. The labeling gets to be just too much.

460 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:55:41am

re: #447 The Sanity Inspector

The International Court system arrested Pinochet and Karadzic, but has always allowed Europe to warmly welcome Fidel Castro with open arms. So, so long as anti-Americanism is the animating genius of that continent, I don't trust them to do justice to America's enemies.

As opposed to pro-Americally letting our dear friend Pinochet off the hook? That would be a sign of true friendship.

461 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:57:13am

re: #458 drcordell

woo hoo, my karma is down to below -100! I want to say I was at least -2,500 at one point?

We can fix that... //bwhahaha

462 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:57:22am

re: #435 Aceofwhat?

He's not at the Hague because they're the Ford Pinto of court systems. Or at least, that's why I'm glad he's not at the Hague.

Trial at the Hague at least guarantees that the defendant will die of old age before the trial concludes.

463 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:57:43am

re: #458 drcordell

woo hoo, my karma is down to below -100! I want to say I was at least -2,500 at one point?

We're gonna SpaceJesus your ass, buddy!

464 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:57:53am

re: #428 lawhawk

Why should a terrorist who attacked the US and destroyed US property and killed thousands of Americans get tried in an international court? The US has jurisdiction and has the capability to determine the means for trial - whether in federal court or in a tribunal system. The tribunal system was an appropriate method considering all the evidenciary problems resulting from overseas capture, CIA actions, harsh interrogations, etc. and it still managed to preserve court access.

Coalition-building. You might have the numbers to answer this one: How is the Hague's record on convictions? I think most of the former Yugoslavs went down hard. (My own choices are NYC jury first, international second.)

465 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:58:13am

re: #451 drcordell

Find me a quote from a Republican opposing the KSM trial that mentions the legal challenges it presents. All I've seen is "terrorists will escape and kill your family" and "New York City will be made a target."

fear of a failure to convict falls into those categories?

466 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:59:13am

re: #454 Ericus58

Hey, that was my nic for Ice and her's for me was "Craven Bastard".

Really? Because most people who call me 'cupcake', 'little girl' or similar here are just misogynist fuckers, and I didn't recall you ever being a misogynist fucker.

Alas, I call a few people 'craven bastards', so if I did call you that, it wasn't specific. :(

Have a good day ericus, we have fun sometimes. I like that.

467 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 7:59:57am

re: #458 drcordell

woo hoo, my karma is down to below -100! I want to say I was at least -2,500 at one point?

Been updinging you, a LOT. :)

468 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:00:00am

re: #462 SixDegrees

Trial at the Hague at least guarantees that the defendant will die of old age before the trial concludes.

well said...it's internationally sanctioned life sentencing...perhaps i should reconsider!

469 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:00:09am

re: #449 lawhawk

I find it amazing that none of the so called legal experts the media relies upon have brought that particular issue up in their discussions with the media since that is what any of the law firms doing work on behalf of the detainees would do.

Yes, in our adversarial justice system, they're duty bound to defend the detainees to the hilt. Will we see them float the multicultural justice in addition, as was done in that Glendale AZ honor killing?

470 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:00:20am

re: #466 iceweasel

I call you "Baby". But only because of that song...

471 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:00:24am

Good morning, y'all.

Coffee isn't doing it. It feels like Monday. Hope y'all are doing better than me.

472 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:01:30am

See y'all later.

473 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:02:32am

re: #338 Aceofwhat?

All true, logical, cogent. I've found that even the most dedicated HR staff are often unfairly mistrusted by employees, so was just making a general statement about that. But when HR really is just the callous arm of a callous employer...yech.

HR and benefits is a weird and complex area. That employees are sensitive about it goes without saying, often since their understanding and basis for healthcare coverage (especially in corporations) comes from there. If you think the company is messing with you regarding coverage and its costs the HR rep is the visible source of that distrust.

The other group that draws it's share of ire of course is Internal Audit...

474 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:02:56am

re: #470 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I call you "Baby". But only because of that song...


And you always get updinged for it. :)

Time to link David Allen Coe and You Never Even Call Me By My Name...

475 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:02:57am

re: #465 Aceofwhat?

fear of a failure to convict falls into those categories?

If we really have such a weak case that "failure to convict" is possible, then somebody screwed up pretty badly.

On the other hand, a trial that precludes an acquittal in advance is not a trial, but a kangaroo court.

So what's it going to be? Up against the wall, like the Nazis, or a show trial, like Stalin preferred?

Not many good options. It's a puzzlement.

476 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:03:36am

re: #465 Aceofwhat?

fear of a failure to convict falls into those categories?

No.

477 blueherron  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:04:21am

re: #458 drcordell

woo hoo, my karma is down to below -100! I want to say I was at least -2,500 at one point?

I've always been a fan, drcordell. Love your new avatar. I used to work for Roberts' father, Jumpin' Jack. John looks just like his dad, so the avatar always brings a smile.

478 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:04:24am

re: #448 Aceofwhat?

i suggest that perhaps the casting of a wider net would land you some principled opposition that goes a little deeper than ZOMG.

I haven't followed this issue very closely, but the loudest complaint I heard about holding the trials in New York came from city officials who were griping about the costs of security. It didn't strike me as fear mongering so much as holding out their hand demanding a tip from the Feds.

479 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:04:26am

re: #458 drcordell

woo hoo, my karma is down to below -100! I want to say I was at least -2,500 at one point?

You and SpaceJesus have been our reclamation projects this year.

480 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:05:12am

re: #464 Decatur Deb

There's no need for a trial to engage in "coalition building" - how exactly does trying KSM in the Hague build a coalition? NATO allies are obligated under the NATO treaty to provide assistance in Afghanistan. That's pretty much all of Europe. The UN also is supporting the US in Afghanistan. Pakistan is backing the US efforts in fits and starts. Who would join in this "coalition"? The Arab/Islamic majority countries continue as they have in anti-American sentiment. This wouldn't change with a Hague tribunal.

Moreover, it would set a possible precedent that terror acts against the US would not get tried in the US and that terrorists would seek trial in the Hague (where the EU doesn't allow for the death penalty) rather than the US (where there is a death penalty).

It also raises the possibility that US officials could end up being tried in there should they be deemed by some country to be engaged in terrorism. Dangerous precedent on that ground, which is why the US has long opposed the ICC.

481 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:05:40am

re: #478 SixDegrees

Morning SD and all.

482 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:06:26am

re: #473 oaktree

HR and benefits is a weird and complex area. That employees are sensitive about it goes without saying, often since their understanding and basis for healthcare coverage (especially in corporations) comes from there. If you think the company is messing with you regarding coverage and its costs the HR rep is the visible source of that distrust.

The other group that draws it's share of ire of course is Internal Audit...

Heh. i helped to bring down an IA director once. he wasn't mean...just stupid. i was juggling a lot of things that were really important to the officers of the company at the time.

never have a few hints having to re- re- send information gone so far, once he politely refused to stop asking for it.

bye bye idiot!

483 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:06:49am

Hmm. Anyone else notice how a certain poster takes a powder whenever the subject of avatars comes up?

484 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:06:58am

re: #459 Silvergirl

I think his motivation is important. Just like with Islamic terrorist attacks. If he's psychotic it's one thing and if he's politically paranoid it's another. What irks me is the dishonest attempts to mischaracterize his motivation. I just read zombies piece at PJM claiming that he's a leftist. It's just stupid to try to ignore the reality of what's going on. It's not going to work.

485 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:07:07am

re: #477 blueherron

I've always been a fan, drcordell. Love your new avatar. I used to work for Roberts' father, Jumpin' Jack. John looks just like his dad, so the avatar always brings a smile.

Thanks!

486 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:07:12am

re: #481 Walter L. Newton

Morning SD and all.

Morning, Walter.

Hmm - almost lunchtime here. I need to take care of a few things, or I'll be worrying about them all weekend.

487 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:07:30am

re: #476 iceweasel

No.

good! if it doesn't fall into either of his categories, then it's valid!

(oh yeah...its my birthday...oh yeah...i'm dancin...)

488 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:08:04am

re: #483 Cato the Elder

Hmm. Anyone else notice how a certain poster takes a powder whenever the subject of avatars comes up?

Please stop hounding mandy over her avatar. It's really tiresome. let it go.

489 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:08:23am

The United States government has committed to playing a role in indirect talks between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, and promised that if the talks were to fail, the U.S. will assign blame and take action, according to a document sent by the U.S. to the Palestinian Authority, which Haaretz obtained on Friday.

The U.S. government sent the document to the Palestinians responding to their inquires regarding the U.S. initiative to launch indirect talks between Israel and the Palestinians.

"We expect both parties to act seriously and in good faith. If one side, in our judgment, is not living up to our expectations, we will make our concerns clear and we will act accordingly to overcome that obstacle," it was written.

This commitment by the U.S. was a determining factor in the Palestinians' and the Arab League's decision to agree to the U.S. proposal on indirect talks.

SNIP

Anyone wanna' take bets as to who's favored to not be assigned any blame? Is Samantha Powers involved at all?

490 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:08:26am

re: #484 Killgore Trout

I think his motivation is important. Just like with Islamic terrorist attacks. If he's psychotic it's one thing and if he's politically paranoid it's another. What irks me is the dishonest attempts to mischaracterize his motivation. I just read zombies piece at PJM claiming that he's a leftist. It's just stupid to try to ignore the reality of what's going on. It's not going to work.

Zombie is a professional liar who specialises in pushing crap.

491 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:09:23am

re: #480 lawhawk

There's no need for a trial to engage in "coalition building" - how exactly does trying KSM in the Hague build a coalition? NATO allies are obligated under the NATO treaty to provide assistance in Afghanistan. That's pretty much all of Europe. The UN also is supporting the US in Afghanistan. Pakistan is backing the US efforts in fits and starts. Who would join in this "coalition"? The Arab/Islamic majority countries continue as they have in anti-American sentiment. This wouldn't change with a Hague tribunal.

Moreover, it would set a possible precedent that terror acts against the US would not get tried in the US and that terrorists would seek trial in the Hague (where the EU doesn't allow for the death penalty) rather than the US (where there is a death penalty).

It also raises the possibility that US officials could end up being tried in there should they be deemed by some country to be engaged in terrorism. Dangerous precedent on that ground, which is why the US has long opposed the ICC.

Progs are counting on it.

492 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:09:45am

Zombie seems to be the chief apologist for the Pentagon shooter. Pretty much all the right wing blogs are running her dishonest assessment.

493 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:10:01am

Why the hell would a genre of rock be interested in convicting US officials???

494 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:10:39am

re: #488 Killgore Trout

Please stop hounding mandy over her avatar. It's really tiresome. let it go.

No.

495 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:10:47am

Looking forward to lunch re: #489 MandyManners

The United States government has committed to playing a role in indirect talks between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, and promised that if the talks were to fail, the U.S. will assign blame and take action, according to a document sent by the U.S. to the Palestinian Authority, which Haaretz obtained on Friday.

SNIP

Anyone wanna' take bets as to who's favored to not be assigned any blame? Is Samantha Powers involved at all?

The peace process depends on America being able to be an impartial broker. We need to be able to call a spade a spade. If Israel is acting like a dick, we need to be able to tell them.

496 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:10:50am

re: #491 MandyManners

Progs are counting on it.

Dishonest rubbish.

497 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:10:51am

re: #475 Cato the Elder

If we really have such a weak case that "failure to convict" is possible, then somebody screwed up pretty badly.

On the other hand, a trial that precludes an acquittal in advance is not a trial, but a kangaroo court.

So what's it going to be? Up against the wall, like the Nazis, or a show trial, like Stalin preferred?

Not many good options. It's a puzzlement.

tribunal. IMO, it lessens the 'maneuvers' that defense counsel can attempt in pursuit of an acquittal on purely technical grounds without being a sham of a mockery.

498 keloyd  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:11:30am

re: #460 Cato the Elder

As opposed to pro-Americally letting our dear friend Pinochet off the hook? That would be a sign of true friendship.

Pinochet's treatment demonstrates the craven hypocrisy of the international community. These links claim Castro has 20x the victims of Pinochet, though Pinochet has plenty (3200 murdered, about 10x that tortured.) We're in lesser-of-2-evils territory here, but here's 2 sharp, rational, whargarbl-free, and short articles that got me up to speed on the Pinochet thing that I found during the earthquake.

Reason magazine is brilliant and generally iconoclastic.
This from National Review is also nuanced and interesting. Bonus points - Buckley was still around in '06, so it was just better all around then.

less bloggy more worky for me now.

499 Silvergirl  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:11:32am

re: #484 Killgore Trout

I think his motivation is important. Just like with Islamic terrorist attacks. If he's psychotic it's one thing and if he's politically paranoid it's another. What irks me is the dishonest attempts to mischaracterize his motivation. I just read zombies piece at PJM claiming that he's a leftist. It's just stupid to try to ignore the reality of what's going on. It's not going to work.

Yes, examining motivation. No harm. But shoving the guy back and forth into left and right camps with such vehemence makes everybody looks a little silly.

500 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:11:44am

re: #480 lawhawk

There's no need for a trial to engage in "coalition building" - how exactly does trying KSM in the Hague build a coalition? NATO allies are obligated under the NATO treaty to provide assistance in Afghanistan. That's pretty much all of Europe. The UN also is supporting the US in Afghanistan. Pakistan is backing the US efforts in fits and starts. Who would join in this "coalition"? The Arab/Islamic majority countries continue as they have in anti-American sentiment. This wouldn't change with a Hague tribunal.

Moreover, it would set a possible precedent that terror acts against the US would not get tried in the US and that terrorists would seek trial in the Hague (where the EU doesn't allow for the death penalty) rather than the US (where there is a death penalty).

It also raises the possibility that US officials could end up being tried in there should they be deemed by some country to be engaged in terrorism. Dangerous precedent on that ground, which is why the US has long opposed the ICC.

There are treaty obligations and treaty obligations. I'm seeing a few of our supporters tiptoeing into the background. Emphasizing the anti-civilization nature of terrorism would help with that. As I said, my first choice would be a jury from Brooklyn and Soho. There is no way any trial goes into the books as a model.

501 darthstar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:12:05am

Mornin' folks...getting ready to drive up to Tahoe so I can't stay long. But for those of you who thought Sarah Palin killed them on the Tonight Show with her stand up routine, you might want to take a look at this first hand report.

502 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:13:06am

re: #482 Aceofwhat?

I think I'm fairly good at not taking out my negative feelings about policies on those who are simply tasked with carrying them out. (Sort of like not lamblasting a clerk who is stuck enforcing idiotic rules at a DMV or something similar.)

As a result my relationship with the IA folk was generally pretty good. Didn't hurt that the IT auditor was someone who had transferred to that job from my department. A nice professional relationship, where some empathy existed for the other's position and the fact that everyone was trying to get a job done. And we had a common foe in Sarbanes-Oxley... ;)

503 jaunte  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:13:27am

re: #492 Killgore Trout

Zombie seems to be the chief apologist for the Pentagon shooter. Pretty much all the right wing blogs are running her dishonest assessment.

This is just such complete and utter twaddle:

Zombie: Now, I’ve been to innumerable “Truther” rallies over the last 8 years, and can say with some confidence that about 98% of folks who think 9/11 was a hoax are left-wingers, or at the very least fit in very comfortably in the left-wing milieu, since the impetus behind Truthism is to undermine the basis for Bush’s “War on Terror,” an impetus which is also a cornerstone of modern Leftist thought as well.
504 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:13:53am

BTW, it's pretty much confirmed that the shooter was the truther we discovered last night....
Friday, 6:50 AM ET -- Official: Pentagon shooter was well armed.

Chief Richard Keevill said the shooter, identified as John Patrick Bedell of Hollister, Calif., spent the last several weeks driving from the West Coast. Police found his car in a local parking garage. Keevill said authorities found more ammunition in his vehicle.
....
"He came here from California," Keevill said. "We were able to identify certain locations that he spent that last several weeks making his way form the West coast to the East coast."
...
In an Internet posting, a user named JPatrickBedell wrote he was determined to see justice for the 1991 death of a Marine in California. The death was ruled a suicide but has long been the source of coverup theories. The writer said the case would be a step toward revealing the truth behind 9/11.

The user also railed against enforcement of marijuana laws.

The screen name can be linked to the suspect in Thursday's attack through documents about a marijuana arrest that were posted on the site, which match the date of birth of the shooter and official court records available online.

505 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:14:11am

Two separate news items:

Pentagon gunman was a troofer who held anti-government views going back to the suspicious death of a Marine in 1991 , which was declared a suicide but around which conspiracies had developed of more nefarious activity. He also railed against marijuana laws in CA.

Meanwhile, CNN, which supposedly covers the news, reports that there were clashes at the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. Palestinians were busy throwing rocks, and Israeli police responded with tear gas. It reports that this was at least the second time this week that such clashes occurred. CNN reports the news - they know exactly how many times these clashes occurred and who started them (they can check the Internet and have a dateline in Jerusalem). Just tell us how many times and that the Palestinians once again started this nonsense by promoting violence at the al Aqsa mosque on a Friday.

506 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:15:46am

re: #503 jaunte

Yeah, there were even 9-11 truthers at the first tea party zombie covered in San Fran. Even though they were in the main crowd she labeled them "counter-protesters". They were probably the organizers.

507 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:15:58am

re: #496 iceweasel

Dishonest rubbish.

ha! how many in the British Government, for example, would love to see GWB brought to the Hague?

say that the brush was too broad - i agree.

say it ain't so at all - i disagree?

508 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:16:21am

re: #480 lawhawk

There's no need for a trial to engage in "coalition building" - how exactly does trying KSM in the Hague build a coalition? NATO allies are obligated under the NATO treaty to provide assistance in Afghanistan. That's pretty much all of Europe. The UN also is supporting the US in Afghanistan. Pakistan is backing the US efforts in fits and starts. Who would join in this "coalition"? The Arab/Islamic majority countries continue as they have in anti-American sentiment. This wouldn't change with a Hague tribunal.

Moreover, it would set a possible precedent that terror acts against the US would not get tried in the US and that terrorists would seek trial in the Hague (where the EU doesn't allow for the death penalty) rather than the US (where there is a death penalty).

It also raises the possibility that US officials could end up being tried in there should they be deemed by some country to be engaged in terrorism. Dangerous precedent on that ground, which is why the US has long opposed the ICC.

There were dark mutterings about indicting some of Bush's cabinet members, some years back.

The thing that worries me about trying the detainees in open court is intelligence security. Osama bin Laden was tipped off by evidence presented in the 1993 WTC bombers' trial, and was able to slip off the CIA's radar for the next several years. Maybe everyone concerned has learned that lesson by now, and also now that the President has a D next to his name maybe the NYT will be somewhat less hot to expose intel secrets. But I think that's a weak reed to lean on.

509 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:16:29am

re: #503 jaunte

Highly similar to the crap zombie was spouting about Van Jones here, which CJ called zombie out on at the time, in comments.

Also remniscent of zombie's total bullshit about Holdren.

510 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:16:52am

re: #486 SixDegrees

Morning, Walter.

Hmm - almost lunchtime here. I need to take care of a few things, or I'll be worrying about them all weekend.

I was thinking the same thing. About me, not you, that is...

511 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:17:15am

re: #503 jaunte

98%??? Heh, Zombie, if you're gonna pull numbers out of your ass, you'd better make them believable.
*rolls eyes*

512 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:17:42am

re: #507 Aceofwhat?

Glenn Beck and the Paulians consider George Bush part of the secret progressive plot to destroy America. Bush is pretty unpopular with the Tea Party crowd. Not all Bush haters are the same.

513 jaunte  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:17:54am

re: #506 Killgore Trout

I look forward to Zombie trying to make the case that Alex Jones and his fans are leftists.

514 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:18:12am

re: #499 Silvergirl

Yes, examining motivation. No harm. But shoving the guy back and forth into left and right camps with such vehemence makes everybody looks a little silly.

thank you. passing comment on what the sum of his crazy might add up to ≠ extended debate about his precise place on the spectrum.

515 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:18:43am
516 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:19:17am

re: #507 Aceofwhat?

It is dishonest rubbish, by which I mean lies and garbage, for someone to claim "progs are counting on it" about this statement:

"It also raises the possibility that US officials could end up being tried in there should they be deemed by some country to be engaged in terrorism."

Fucking bullshit.

BTW, by 'progs' that idiot hatemonger means anyone who voted for Obama.

517 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:19:25am

re: #495 drcordell

If we're supposed to be calling a spade a spade, how about calling Hamas out for what it is - a terror group. Ditto for Fatah, which together comprises the PA.

Call both out for failing to amend their charters that call for Israel's destruction. Stop ignoring the propaganda and failure to adhere to the Oslo Accords.

That would be the role of an honest broker. Instead, the way that the US has operated for decades is to ignore all the violations and push things forward ignoring the reality on the ground that one party to the conflict (the Palestinians) wants nothing less than the elimination of the other.

Israel has repeatedly shown that construction of communities and housing is not an impediment to peace - it withdrew from Sinai and Gaza to much consternation and grief from those Israelis who were displaced. Israel got a peace treaty with Egypt, and a rocket war from Gaza. That's an image that sticks with Israel - they see that the Palestinians have no genuine interest in peace when they're given the opportunity to develop an economy and with the backing of the international community and instead turn Gaza into an armed camp for the next phase of a war with Israel.

518 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:19:54am

re: #513 jaunte

I look forward to Zombie trying to make the case that Alex Jones and his fans are leftists.

They were during the Bush Administration.

519 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:19:56am

Heh, subtlety, not everyone's strongest trait.
;)

520 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:20:11am

re: #513 jaunte

I look forward to Zombie trying to make the case that Alex Jones and his fans are leftists.

Really? Some assholes have been trying to make that case right here on other threads.

521 stonemason  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:20:18am

re: #484 Killgore Trout

Just for fun I dropped into the 9/11 truth site, then checked out 'other links'...not gonna link that cesspool here, but most of the other links were to left wing sites such as World Can't Wait.

Now, I personally do not care to label the nut job, but how many right wingers are arrested for cultivating Marijuana in relation to left wingers?

So if a label is necessary, based on the two things from the LA times (9/11 and pot) one would lean left. Of course, as I have posted here many times, one can not label a dead person, we can't ask the pertinent questions.

522 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:20:31am

re: #518 MandyManners

They were during the Bush Administration.

Another fucking lie.

523 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:20:40am

I'd simply figure that anti-government folk would be anti-Clinton, anti-Bush, anti-Obama, etc. regardless of whatever other labels one wants to apply.

524 ryannon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:20:57am

re: #459 Silvergirl

After reading various articles on the Pentagon shooter and the comments following them, plus blog comments, I can't help seeing the strong push to categorize this guy and claim him as anything but one of us. Yes, personalities are formed by the families people we're born into, religions we follow, and ideologies we're drawn to, but we have to realize the good and sane people that make up our world. If someone is a member of the KKK, it's one thing. If they happen to be from one of our southern states, it's another. Left wing is one thing, and Bill Ayers is another. Right wing is one thing, Tim McVeigh is another. The energy expended on pushing these crazies away from having any identification with those beliefs we hold near and dear, and foisting the crazy onto those other guys is overblown. Where does it stop? I noticed from his birthdate that his astrological sign is Taurus. One article said the guns he used were a Sturm 9mm and a Taurus 9mm. Taurus again. All you Taurus people hang your heads. He's one of you. The labeling gets to be just too much.

Black Guelphs and the White Guelphs. not to mention the Ghibbelines.

Sucker's game.

Just like it always was.

525 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:21:00am

re: #513 jaunte

I look forward to Zombie trying to make the case that Alex Jones and his fans are leftists.

The word I was looking for is "opportunists".

526 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:21:44am

re: #519 Varek Raith

Heh, subtlety, not everyone's strongest trait.
;)

What!?!? You want us to have a sense of subtlety? Like Hitler wanted to kill the Jews? Huh?! Huh?!?!

527 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:22:24am

re: #524 ryannon

Black Guelphs and the White Guelphs. not to mention the Ghibbelines.

Sucker's game.

Just like it always was.

Dante make this into a renaissance thread, or I'll florence.

528 jaunte  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:22:47am

re: #520 iceweasel

The political spectrum isn't really linear, so I think it's a stretch to try to smear the majority of either side of the sane political range with nutty extremists like the troofers.

529 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:23:12am

re: #501 darthstar

Mornin' folks...getting ready to drive up to Tahoe so I can't stay long. But for those of you who thought Sarah Palin killed them on the Tonight Show with her stand up routine, you might want to take a look at this first hand report.

not surprised. the guy writing it sounds like a dick, though.

530 brennant  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:23:12am

Did anyone notice the Truther in crowd shots of the California university protest? It was on NBC last night. Do the Truthers go to any rally/protest?

531 laZardo  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:24:23am

re: #527 Decatur Deb

And yay verily shall it be an inferno.

532 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:25:10am

re: #530 brennant

Did anyone notice the Truther in crowd shots of the California university protest? It was on NBC last night. Do the Truthers go to any rally/protest?

They're a lot like that clown guy who shows up at sporting events waving Biblical verses around for the cameras.

533 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:25:18am

I think in Bedell's case we have a true instance of moronic convergence.

Perhaps he truly is unclassifiable by "left" or by "right" schemata.

Caution is advised.

I sometimes jump to conclusions, but it looks to me like, what with him dead and all, we might want to put a 72-hour hold into effect.

One thing's for sure: He was a true pothead. Only a stoner needs several weeks to drive across the country. I did it in 4.1 days.

Either that, or he was wrestling with his better angels, trying to talk himself out of his plans.

The only good part of this story is that he's the only one who ended up dead.

534 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:26:55am

re: #523 oaktree

There is some truth to that at the fringe, but seems to me most of that runs counter cyclical on who is in the white house. The left wing anti gov folks came out against GWB, the right wingers came out against Pres. Obama.

535 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:27:20am

re: #359 Cato the Elder

I'm talking about your "4 out of 5 crazee shooters are left-wing zealots" theory, of course.

Way to put the blinders on.

No blinders here, I must have misinterpreted your point. I was wrong on that statement, only 3 of 5 were left wing ideologues. I still contend it wasn't their political philosophy that made them snap, it was their inherent craziness that guided their political philosophy.

536 keloyd  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:27:24am

Here's an attempt to compare a rotten apple with a particularly offensive orange: Truthers vs Birthers - who is really worse?

537 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:27:26am

re: #516 iceweasel

It is dishonest rubbish, by which I mean lies and garbage, for someone to claim "progs are counting on it" about this statement:

"It also raises the possibility that US officials could end up being tried in there should they be deemed by some country to be engaged in terrorism."

Fucking bullshit.

BTW, by 'progs' that idiot hatemonger means anyone who voted for Obama.

yikes. too much coffee?

there are some progressives in some places who would like to see certain US officials tried there.

if progs = anyone who voted for Obama, of course it's untrue...just like it's untrue that scary ZOMG Cheney dark side evil is the only thing behind getting KSM into a tribunal.

they're both spades...juuust so you know. i'm happy to call both posts spades if you are!

538 Ericus58  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:27:44am

re: #388 MandyManners

The one issue I have is with the chance that Turkey will deny us use of their airspace.

Turkey has embarked upon a new course that is at odds with it's old allies (NATO, Israel) and more in line with it's new 'friends' (Iran, Syria).

I'm afraid the game is afoot.

539 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:28:09am

re: #533 Cato the Elder

The arguments do show how successfully "Liberal Fascism" bull has debased the conventional understanding of politics.

540 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:29:08am

re: #533 Cato the Elder
Only a minor addendum, dear Cato


The only good part of this story is that he's the only one who ended up dead.

I'd posit that the good part is that he didn't succeed in killing anyone.
(as far as I heard? Only grazes, I thought)

541 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:30:04am

re: #540 iceweasel

Only a minor addendum, dear Cato

I'd posit that the good part is that he didn't succeed in killing anyone.
(as far as I heard? Only grazes, I thought)

Superficial, was the term I heard to describe their injuries.

542 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:30:14am

re: #512 Killgore Trout

Glenn Beck and the Paulians consider George Bush part of the secret progressive plot to destroy America. Bush is pretty unpopular with the Tea Party crowd. Not all Bush haters are the same.

truth

543 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:30:21am

re: #538 Ericus58

Turkey has embarked upon a new course that is at odds with it's old allies (NATO, Israel) and more in line with it's new 'friends' (Iran, Syria).

I'm afraid the game is afoot.

A modern version of the scorpion and the frog?

544 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:30:33am

re: #498 keloyd

Pinochet's treatment demonstrates the craven hypocrisy of the international community. These links claim Castro has 20x the victims of Pinochet, though Pinochet has plenty (3200 murdered, about 10x that tortured.) We're in lesser-of-2-evils territory here, but here's 2 sharp, rational, whargarbl-free, and short articles that got me up to speed on the Pinochet thing that I found during the earthquake.

Pinochet was out of power when he was arrested, and there were international warrants out on him from victims' lawyers.

I assure you the are such warrants out for Castro. Trouble is, he's still a head of state, which still comes with certain immunities, like it or not (viz. Ahmadinejad). You want The Hague to invade Cuba?

If he retires before he dies and goes abroad, he could well be arrested.

And fuck Pinochet.

545 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:30:51am

I'm baking an apple pie, but now I feel that I must go out and buy ice cream to serve with it. Caramel sauce too.

546 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:31:21am

re: #388 MandyManners

They might for a while, but this like many "diplospats" will blow over. There are deep economic ties now between the US and Turkey.

547 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:31:39am

re: #512 Killgore Trout

There was (and is) a correlation between 9/11 troofers and the left - in part because of the BDS that was widely prevalent during the Bush years as part of a general distrust of the Bush Administration. Just how much of a correlation? I just don't know.

I just see the troofers on a completely different spectrum from a left-right continuum; they're in their own bizarro universe.

548 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:31:54am

re: #540 iceweasel

Only a minor addendum, dear Cato

I'd posit that the good part is that he didn't succeed in killing anyone.
(as far as I heard? Only grazes, I thought)

Which reinforces the pothead theory.

549 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:32:02am

re: #517 lawhawk


Israel has repeatedly shown that construction of communities and housing is not an impediment to peace

Yeah. Not an impediment for the Israelis. At the end of the day, the ball is in Israel's court whether they like it or not. Anything that gets done is going to be the result of Israel taking the lead in this process. They have the power.

And right now, they are using the power to create facts on the ground. Increased settlements, this "heritage sites" debacle, all of it furthering their control over Palestinian lands. Either they relinquish power eventually, or they continue to leave the Palestinians fenced off, impoverished and angry. It's their call.

550 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:32:37am

re: #537 Aceofwhat?

yikes. too much coffee?!

Yes. I submit that the person who said "Progs are counting on it" is a liar, wrong, and a fool for stating such, given that by 'prog' she means 'anyone who voted for Obama, all Dems, all liberals, and all progessives". Because THAT is how she uses the term 'prog'.

And she possibly had too much coffee. How would I know?

551 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:32:41am

re: #545 Alouette

I'm baking an apple pie, but now I feel that I must go out and buy ice cream to serve with it. Caramel sauce too.

White sauce made of butter, heavy cream and Parmagiano-Reggiano over beef-stuffed tortellini.

552 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:33:32am

re: #545 Alouette

I'm baking an apple pie, but now I feel that I must go out and buy ice cream to serve with it. Caramel sauce too.

"must" is the appropriate verb!

i recommend Breyers' white vanilla. no artificial ingredients, just heavenly goodness...

and when will it be ready? i'll pick up FBV on the way//

553 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:33:38am

re: #546 Rightwingconspirator

They might for a while, but this like many "diplospats" will blow over. There are deep economic ties now between the US and Turkey.

Turkey has a lot going on with the possible coup by the secular military.

554 ryannon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:33:39am

re: #527 Decatur Deb

Dante make this into a renaissance thread, or I'll florence.

Po' boy.

555 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:33:51am

re: #549 drcordell

Yeah. Not an impediment for the Israelis. At the end of the day, the ball is in Israel's court whether they like it or not. Anything that gets done is going to be the result of Israel taking the lead in this process. They have the power.

This is not true, Cordell. You are ignoring that all of the Arab states intentionally inflame Palestine for their own political benefit. The conflict is not between Israel and the Palestinians. It's between Israel and the Arab States who prefer to keep the Paelstine-Israeli conflict flaring up so that they can better control their own populations.

556 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:34:01am

re: #549 drcordell

Yeah. Not an impediment for the Israelis. At the end of the day, the ball is in Israel's court whether they like it or not. Anything that gets done is going to be the result of Israel taking the lead in this process. They have the power.

And right now, they are using the power to create facts on the ground. Increased settlements, this "heritage sites" debacle, all of it furthering their control over Palestinian lands. Either they relinquish power eventually, or they continue to leave the Palestinians fenced off, impoverished and angry. It's their call.

Yeah, how did relinquishing control in Gaza work out?

557 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:34:27am

re: #554 ryannon

Po' boy.

Arno t.

558 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:34:54am

re: #545 Alouette

Gilding the lilly.

559 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:35:07am

re: #549 drcordell

Yeah. Not an impediment for the Israelis. At the end of the day, the ball is in Israel's court whether they like it or not. Anything that gets done is going to be the result of Israel taking the lead in this process. They have the power.

And right now, they are using the power to create facts on the ground. Increased settlements, this "heritage sites" debacle, all of it furthering their control over Palestinian lands. Either they relinquish power eventually, or they continue to leave the Palestinians fenced off, impoverished and angry. It's their call.

as opposed to using their power to create rockets randomly fired at the other.

just sayin'.

560 laZardo  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:35:10am

re: #554 ryannon

Florentine, not Bohemian.

561 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:35:21am

TGIF mofos

562 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:35:45am

re: #561 cliffster

TGIF mofos

AMF

563 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:36:10am

re: #547 lawhawk

There was (and is) a correlation between 9/11 troofers and the left - in part because of the BDS that was widely prevalent during the Bush years as part of a general distrust of the Bush Administration. Just how much of a correlation? I just don't know.

I just see the troofers on a completely different spectrum from a left-right continuum; they're in their own bizarro universe.

Spot on.

564 Locker  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:36:52am

re: #555 Obdicut

This is not true, Cordell. You are ignoring that all of the Arab states intentionally inflame Palestine for their own political benefit. The conflict is not between Israel and the Palestinians. It's between Israel and the Arab States who prefer to keep the Paelstine-Israeli conflict flaring up so that they can better control their own populations.

Would it be accurate to say that it's between Israel + USA (Western powers) and the Arab States? It seems like we (west and arab) use these two entities to act out our strife. Just a thought and you might already mean that... just asking.

565 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:37:06am

re: #545 Alouette

I'm baking an apple pie, but now I feel that I must go out and buy ice cream to serve with it. Caramel sauce too.

I agree, that would be the right thing to do.

566 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:37:35am

re: #549 drcordell

So we should ignore what Palestinians have done to obliterate Jewish heritage sites within their control, just as surely the Jordanians did to the Kotel and Jewish cemeteries when they were in control from 1948 through 1967? They've done that to Rachel's tomb, and are trying to deny Jewish ties to the Tomb of the Patriarchs.

Sorry, that doesn't wash. The Palestinians have repeatedly made it clear that they want a Jewish free-presence wherever they control. It's criminal for Israelis to wander into any Palestinian controlled areas. They have no interest in protecting the Jewish heritage sites, so while you think that Israel is throwing its weight around here, it's doing what it can to protect sites that will likely be damaged or destroyed should Israel relinquish any control it might have down the road.

567 laZardo  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:37:37am

re: #547 lawhawk

I just see the troofers on a completely different spectrum from a left-right continuum; they're in their own bizarro universe.

In the middle of the black hole at the edge of the political spectrum where all sanity gets sucked into some kind of moronic convergence.

568 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:37:52am

re: #553 MandyManners

Turkey has a lot going on with the possible coup by the secular military.

Turkey is weird that way. They rely on coups to keep them somewhat modern and liberal.

569 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:38:03am

re: #556 Alouette

Yeah, how did relinquishing control in Gaza work out?

How exactly did they "relinquish" control? Gaza is still completely fenced in, and segregated by dozens of Israeli military checkpoints. Honestly, if you lived there would you consider yourself free of Israeli control? I know I wouldn't.

570 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:38:10am

re: #547 lawhawk

There was (and is) a correlation between 9/11 troofers and the left - in part because of the BDS that was widely prevalent during the Bush years as part of a general distrust of the Bush Administration. Just how much of a correlation? I just don't know.

I just see the troofers on a completely different spectrum from a left-right continuum; they're in their own bizarro universe.

True. However, his involvement in the Mises Institute and his writings on liberty, property rights etc places him firmly as a right wing libertarian. No amount of spin is going to change that. The right wing libertarians had their own lecture series at CPAC about government tyranny and what an asshole Lincoln was. The Democrats had no libertarian lectures at their their convention.

571 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:38:16am

re: #421 Cato the Elder

"Us"?

Pick up the phone and call 911. Especially if it's you.

I promise, FEMA camps are actually pretty nice places to live.

HA. I was going to make a similar joke and decided I didn't want to unduly alarm people.

572 laZardo  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:38:18am

re: #564 Locker

Would it be accurate to say that it's between Israel + USA (Western powers) and the Arab States? It seems like we (west and arab) use these two entities to act out our strife. Just a thought and you might already mean that... just asking.

Arab States + China/Russia.

/everybody wants to rule the world~

573 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:38:52am

G'Morning, all!

At the end of this month/early April, your truly will be purchasing his first motor vehicle intended for his own use. I'm damned near 40 now, and will actually have to start driving, daily.

Looking at my vehicular options, and in recognition of the fact that I'm not a Rockefeller, I've narrowed down the range of vehicle options somewhat.

A fellow - a mechanic, and who doesn't need to know a good mechanic? - has recommended I look at either a Volvo 240, or, he says, if I really want to get fancy with it, and don't mind having the same vehicle for the net ten or more years, a mercedes 300d.

His advice was the volvo would do me for a while, and that what it lacked in comforts and efficiency, it made up for in survivability. The mercedes, he said, would survive under just about any conceivable crash situation, and has the added benefit of being a german-made diesel, and thus should be good for around 500K miles.

Anyone here had any experiences with either type, or could suggest other alternatives? I've looked at the older toyotas and hondas, and find them simply out of my price range.

574 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:38:57am

re: #547 lawhawk

There was (and is) a correlation between 9/11 troofers and the left - in part because of the BDS that was widely prevalent during the Bush years as part of a general distrust of the Bush Administration. Just how much of a correlation? I just don't know.

I just see the troofers on a completely different spectrum from a left-right continuum; they're in their own bizarro universe.

People stumbling over themselves to paint someone in this sort of situation as right-wing or left-wing are opportunistic jackasses. It starts the second the story breaks. Low-class.

575 stonemason  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:38:58am

re: #564 Locker

Would it be accurate to say that it's between Israel + USA (Western powers) and the Arab States? It seems like we (west and arab) use these two entities to act out our strife. Just a thought and you might already mean that... just asking.

I learned a bit on here about the conflict. Yes, the USA backs Israel in the situation, as an ally, but the USA does not 'egg' on the violence as the Arab world does. When is the last time the President of the US called for the destruction of the Palestinians?

576 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:39:03am

re: #471 MrSilverDragon

Good morning, y'all.

Coffee isn't doing it. It feels like Monday. Hope y'all are doing better than me.

I was gonna say that if today feels like Monday, you're in for a very short week, but then I got busy, and here we are 100 comments later. I don't know whether that means I'm doing better than you or not. But my tea is ready, so back to work!

577 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:39:23am

re: #549 drcordell

Yeah. Not an impediment for the Israelis. At the end of the day, the ball is in Israel's court whether they like it or not. Anything that gets done is going to be the result of Israel taking the lead in this process. They have the power.

And right now, they are using the power to create facts on the ground. Increased settlements, this "heritage sites" debacle, all of it furthering their control over Palestinian lands. Either they relinquish power eventually, or they continue to leave the Palestinians fenced off, impoverished and angry. It's their call.

They evacuated southern Lebanon and the Gaza Strip, and got a hail of rockets for their trouble. The much-execrated security wall put a stop to the wave of suicide bombers. The deal-breaker on the Arab side is, and always has been, the very existence of Israel.

578 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:39:29am

re: #564 Locker

Would it be accurate to say that it's between Israel + USA (Western powers) and the Arab States?

No. The US's relationship with Saudi Arabia and many other Arab states clearly shows that we're not just on Israel's 'side', though that's an awkward way of putting it.

The Saudi government spreads anti-Israel propaganda. We are allies with Saudi Arabia.

Those of us who think we are too kindly to Israel, think of how kindly we are to Saudi Arabia.

579 laZardo  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:39:42am

re: #569 drcordell

How exactly did they "relinquish" control? Gaza is still completely fenced in, and segregated by dozens of Israeli military checkpoints. Honestly, if you lived there would you consider yourself free of Israeli control? I know I wouldn't.

The stubborn adherence to the conspiracy-laden Hamas Covenant aside...

580 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:40:07am

re: #550 iceweasel

Yes. I submit that the person who said "Progs are counting on it" is a liar, wrong, and a fool for stating such, given that by 'prog' she means 'anyone who voted for Obama, all Dems, all liberals, and all progessives". Because THAT is how she uses the term 'prog'.

And she possibly had too much coffee. How would I know?

but some progs want this, right, if we narrow the definition of the term and limit it with a "some"?

[Link: www.bushtothehague.org...]

581 stonemason  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:40:13am

re: #569 drcordell

How exactly did they "relinquish" control? Gaza is still completely fenced in, and segregated by dozens of Israeli military checkpoints. Honestly, if you lived there would you consider yourself free of Israeli control? I know I wouldn't.

There is a border with Egypt, not just Israel...

582 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:40:26am

re: #566 lawhawk

So we should ignore what Palestinians have done to obliterate Jewish heritage sites within their control, just as surely the Jordanians did to the Kotel and Jewish cemeteries when they were in control from 1948 through 1967? They've done that to Rachel's tomb, and are trying to deny Jewish ties to the Tomb of the Patriarchs.

Sorry, that doesn't wash. The Palestinians have repeatedly made it clear that they want a Jewish free-presence wherever they control. It's criminal for Israelis to wander into any Palestinian controlled areas. They have no interest in protecting the Jewish heritage sites, so while you think that Israel is throwing its weight around here, it's doing what it can to protect sites that will likely be damaged or destroyed should Israel relinquish any control it might have down the road.

You can't possibly see how single-handedly taking control of heritage sites with both Jewish and Muslim significance could be provocative? It's about more than Israel's intentions. It's about how this is perceived when coupled with the current settlement push that has been going on for the past year. If you're a Palestinian why would you take Israel's word that this isn't merely another stepping stone to taking control of further land?

583 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:40:40am

re: #555 Obdicut

This is not true, Cordell. You are ignoring that all of the Arab states intentionally inflame Palestine for their own political benefit. The conflict is not between Israel and the Palestinians. It's between Israel and the Arab States who prefer to keep the Paelstine-Israeli conflict flaring up so that they can better control their own populations.

You are 95% correct. However the Palestinians are not without responsibility for their own actions, which is the other 5%.

584 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:40:46am

re: #573 Guanxi88

Check out the "Car Talk" website. Good stuff under the comedy.

585 Locker  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:40:53am

re: #572 laZardo

Arab States + China/Russia.

/everybody wants to rule the world~

Is that strictly due to the arms market or is it US opposition? I'm guessing it's not due to similar dogma/ideology. Personally, I'm uninformed about the relationship.

586 keloyd  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:40:54am

In 50 years, when Israel and Palestine settle into something like what the Koreas or Turkey/Cyprus have, when the Chinese or Russians get bigger and spookier, we will remember that Islam and Arab culture is culturally "Western".

If the Vikings are "Western", if the non-IndoEuropean language speaking Finns are "Western" then the Arabs wiht their monotheism and closely intertwined language and culture are certainly "Western".

587 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:41:12am

re: #570 Killgore Trout

his writings on liberty, property rights etc places him firmly ...

...in the loony bin, as far as I've been able to determine. I haven't been able to disentangle even one of his sentences, let alone a paragraph or anything else resembling an actual thought.

588 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:41:23am

I'm so far behind I'm completely lost. You guys need to slow down a bit so I can keep up. Thank you.

589 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:41:25am

re: #569 drcordell

How exactly did they "relinquish" control? Gaza is still completely fenced in, and segregated by dozens of Israeli military checkpoints. Honestly, if you lived there would you consider yourself free of Israeli control? I know I wouldn't.


i wonder what they check for in those checkpoints?

590 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:41:29am

re: #580 Aceofwhat?

Ace, why indulge in using intentionally insulting terminology? It seems just intentionally insulting.

591 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:41:52am

re: #581 stonemason

There is a border with Egypt, not just Israel...

ZINGyouvermuch!

592 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:42:04am

re: #590 Obdicut

Ace, why indulge in using intentionally insulting terminology? It seems just intentionally insulting.

Yes.

593 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:42:53am

re: #578 Obdicut

No. The US's relationship with Saudi Arabia and many other Arab states clearly shows that we're not just on Israel's 'side', though that's an awkward way of putting it.

The Saudi government spreads anti-Israel propaganda. We are allies with Saudi Arabia.

Those of us who think we are too kindly to Israel, think of how kindly we are to Saudi Arabia.

dang. you know it's a weird day when i'm flying through a thread updinging all of your stuff//

(hope you're well)

594 laZardo  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:43:18am

re: #585 Locker

Is that strictly due to the arms market or is it US opposition? I'm guessing it's not due to similar dogma/ideology. Personally, I'm uninformed about the relationship.

Both, really. The US backs quite a few countries with dissimilar ideologies (nominal or otherwise), and it helps China and Russia to have a few proverbial fingers in pies as well.

595 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:43:21am

re: #589 Aceofwhat?

i wonder what they check for in those checkpoints?

Watch this movie and you will find out. [Link: movies.nytimes.com...]

596 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:43:25am

This drives my younger brother up the wall.
Prog = Progressive Metal
not leftwing boogie men.

597 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:43:37am

re: #583 Spare O'Lake

Sure. But it is very difficult to transform an armed resistance into a principled one. To me, the main issue is how they're hemmed in by the Arab states. I even go so far as to suspect the Arab states of keeping the refugee camps in squalid conditions to encourage people to stay in Palestine and continue the conflict.

598 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:44:02am

re: #590 Obdicut

Ace, why indulge in using intentionally insulting terminology? It seems just intentionally insulting.

wait - is that insulting?

i really have no idea.

if so, i'll stop immediately. i had no intention to - thought all along this was just short for progressive. what did i do wrong?

599 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:44:20am

re: #569 drcordell

How exactly did they "relinquish" control? Gaza is still completely fenced in, and segregated by dozens of Israeli military checkpoints. Honestly, if you lived there would you consider yourself free of Israeli control? I know I wouldn't.

There are no Israelis at all in Gaza - except the captured Gilad Shalit.

Gaza is like any other country that has secure borders and trade routes. Gazans have chosen a path of war and conflict - attacking border crossing, energy distribution sites, etc.

It has a port and an airport, and yet chooses to use all of that infrastructure in furtherance of the Hamas goal of Israel's destruction. Israel has no right to defend itself from that by maintaining security?

The Israelis aren't providing internal security in Gaza - that's now up to the Palestinians themselves, just as surely as the Palestinians are providing civil administrative control for 90% of the West Bank as per Oslo, Wye, Camp David, and all the related deals. Palestinians control their own destiny in Gaza, and they chose war. They first did so via suicide bombers, so Israel had no choice but build a security fence. That in turn led to the rocket war, and Israel had no choice but go after Hamas terrorists responsible for that. Or do you think Israel has no right to defend its citizens from incessant threats and attacks? Because that's the very path you're walking down.

Hamas could have chosen to spend its considerable energies on infrastructure, luring economic development, and settlement of the refugee camps rather than continuing the status quo that only feeds on the extremism and cultivates yet more resentment against Israel because Hamas demands nothing less than Israel's destruction and a right of return that would overwhelm Israel demographically and physically.

They chose war and violence and to ignore the economic opportunities posed by the Gaza disengagement.

Curious. Very curious.

600 ryannon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:44:36am

re: #572 laZardo

Arab States + China/Russia.

/everybody wants to rule the world~

Where have I heard that line before?

601 Locker  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:44:47am

re: #573 Guanxi88

If I were to buy any American car it would have to be a Buick. I've driven several and owned a very nice Regal GS which was under 25k to purchase and a very, very nice sporty sedan. Reliable, fast, nice interior, roomy, etc.

We own a Toyota and a Lexus and are very satisfied, even with the recent recall trouble. Either of those brands are available as a certified pre-owned vehicle which is how I purchased the Lexus. 1 year old, more than 10k less than the original price and a 3 year bumper to bumper new car warrantee.

Just some thoughts...

602 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:44:48am

re: #384 lawhawk

Yeah, well as someone who is very familiar with the event and the Armenian people (work with them daily, live next to their biggest expat pop.) Turkey needs to get out of the "other' holocaust denial policy. Uh, not that Turkey denies the Jewish holocaust, but that there are two events wrongly denied out there.

603 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:45:14am

re: #595 drcordell

Watch this movie and you will find out. [Link: movies.nytimes.com...]

let me ask again. clearly that was too convoluted.

what, pray tell, has made them believe that they ought to be searching folks on their way in?

604 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:45:18am

re: #568 Decatur Deb

Turkey is weird that way. They rely on coups to keep them somewhat modern and liberal.

Ataturk lives.

605 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:45:24am

re: #596 Varek Raith

This drives my younger brother up the wall.
Prog = Progressive Metal
not leftwing boogie men.

For the record, I get no bad vibe from "prog". I equate it to my use of "Repub" or "righty".

606 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:45:41am

re: #582 drcordell

You can't possibly see how single-handedly taking control of heritage sites with both Jewish and Muslim significance could be provocative? It's about more than Israel's intentions. It's about how this is perceived when coupled with the current settlement push that has been going on for the past year. If you're a Palestinian why would you take Israel's word that this isn't merely another stepping stone to taking control of further land?

Noone is asking the Palestinians to take Israel's word for anything. However they must once and for all be disabused of the notion that they have nothing to lose by maintaining their rejectionist stance, and that is what Israel's settlement policy is hopefully going to teach them.
The deal is not going to get better for the Palestinians, only worse, and the sooner they realize that the better for all concerned.

607 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:45:50am

re: #573 Guanxi88

Avoid '02 Tauruses. Effin' money pits, they are. At the time, Ford was putting their heart & soul into trucks and SUVs, and letting the passenger cars go to crap.

608 laZardo  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:45:55am

re: #596 Varek Raith

This drives my younger brother up the wall.
Prog = Progressive Metal
not leftwing boogie men.

I always figured "folk" as "left-wing country."

609 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:46:13am

re: #604 MandyManners

Ataturk lives.

And you always smile when you say that, over there.

610 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:46:21am

re: #570 Killgore Trout

The Democrats had no libertarian lectures at their their convention.

They did when there was a republican in the white house. They love libertarians when there's GOP control and hate us when there is a Dem running the show and the same (but opposite) goes for the GOP. Libertarians are natural contrarians and the major political parties only pay attention to us when they're the ones out of power.

611 laZardo  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:46:26am

re: #604 MandyManners

Ataturk LIIIVVVEEESSS.

/mandatory mad scientist emphasis

612 Locker  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:46:54am

re: #575 stonemason

I learned a bit on here about the conflict. Yes, the USA backs Israel in the situation, as an ally, but the USA does not 'egg' on the violence as the Arab world does. When is the last time the President of the US called for the destruction of the Palestinians?

There are lots and lots of ways to "egg on" violence besides an open call for destruction. In fact that doesn't even seem like a very good way to accomplish the task. I've always felt like we (US) use Israel as a buffer against the Arab world. Perhaps I'm mistaken but it doesn't seem all that different, despite the difference in rhetorical style.

613 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:46:58am

re: #582 drcordell

Single handedly taking control of heritage sites? You mean like the Temple Mount where the Israeli government now prohibits Jews from visiting, let alone pray, despite being the site of the holiest spot on the entire planet because it might provoke Palestinians to engage in violence in return? Gotcha.

614 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:47:04am

I'm back. I hate it when I have to work on stuff that takes me away from LGF. Stupid government.

615 shiplord kirel  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:47:14am

The Pentagon shooter had exhibited BDS, Trooferism, opposition to marijuana laws, armed resistance fantasies, and adherence to a whacko version of von Mises economics.
These were all quite consistent with what we have seen from the Paulian/libertarian crazy wing at the Tea Parties.

616 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:47:35am

re: #605 Decatur Deb

For the record, I get no bad vibe from "prog". I equate it to my use of "Repub" or "righty".


Heh, being a sane libertarian, I'm sensitive to how seemingly harmless words are used to describe one's political opponents in nasty ways.
Or some such.
;)

617 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:47:38am

re: #598 Aceofwhat?

It's short for progressives among people who consider progressives fools and moral midgets. Progressivism, such as practiced by the guys at the [Link: www.trumanproject.org...] , is a respectable position. I don't share a lot with progressives (except on social issues), but they make serious attempts to make their case and deserve fair hearing.

It's like "libbie", or "neocon", but "neocon" as said by their dire opposite.

Furthermore, most of the people labelled as 'progs'-- like Pelosi and Boxer, are so goddamn far from progressives it makes my teeth hurt. The progressives would love to take out Pelosi.

618 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:47:58am

re: #597 Obdicut

Sure. But it is very difficult to transform an armed resistance into a principled one. To me, the main issue is how they're hemmed in by the Arab states. I even go so far as to suspect the Arab states of keeping the refugee camps in squalid conditions to encourage people to stay in Palestine and continue the conflict.

On Israel we are agreed, thank God.

619 Martinsmithy  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:48:09am

I would have thought it was still too cold in the Pacific Northwest for this type of activity: [Link: blogs.seattleweekly.com...]

But perhaps that's why they thought they could do it - fewer other people around!

620 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:48:49am

re: #616 Varek Raith

Heh, being a sane libertarian, I'm sensitive to how seemingly harmless words are used to describe one's political opponents in nasty ways.
Or some such.
;)

I keep saying it: It's all in the context and intent.

621 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:48:50am

re: #599 lawhawk

There are no Israelis at all in Gaza - except the captured Gilad Shalit.

Gaza is like any other country that has secure borders and trade routes. Gazans have chosen a path of war and conflict - attacking border crossing, energy distribution sites, etc.

It has a port and an airport, and yet chooses to use all of that infrastructure in furtherance of the Hamas goal of Israel's destruction. Israel has no right to defend itself from that by maintaining security?

The Israelis aren't providing internal security in Gaza - that's now up to the Palestinians themselves, just as surely as the Palestinians are providing civil administrative control for 90% of the West Bank as per Oslo, Wye, Camp David, and all the related deals. Palestinians control their own destiny in Gaza, and they chose war. They first did so via suicide bombers, so Israel had no choice but build a security fence. That in turn led to the rocket war, and Israel had no choice but go after Hamas terrorists responsible for that. Or do you think Israel has no right to defend its citizens from incessant threats and attacks? Because that's the very path you're walking down.

Hamas could have chosen to spend its considerable energies on infrastructure, luring economic development, and settlement of the refugee camps rather than continuing the status quo that only feeds on the extremism and cultivates yet more resentment against Israel because Hamas demands nothing less than Israel's destruction and a right of return that would overwhelm Israel demographically and physically.

They chose war and violence and to ignore the economic opportunities posed by the Gaza disengagement.

Curious. Very curious.

I'm not saying you don't make valid points here. But you are glossing over the significance of Israel's control over Gaza. All imports and exports are allowed into Gaza at the whim of the Israelis. Power is allowed into Gaza at the whim of the Israelis. People are allowed into Gaza at the whim of the Israelis. Military checkpoints within and surrounding Gaza are still staffed by the Israelis.

To simply say that the Gazans are in control of their own fate, and that Hamas has squandered the opportunity to allow economic development is completely false. My position is not radical on this, in fact it's supported by roughly half of Israel. It's only in the United States that being "pro-Israel" means believing that Israel is 100% right 100% of the time and that the Palestinians are responsible for ending this conflict themselves.

622 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:49:10am

I never thought I would see the day on LGF where Israel's right to not be bombarded by suicide bombers in their pizzarias--and by rockets made out of the very infrastructure they gave to the Gazans--would be attacked.

Unfuckingbelievable.

623 Locker  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:49:30am

re: #578 Obdicut

No. The US's relationship with Saudi Arabia and many other Arab states clearly shows that we're not just on Israel's 'side', though that's an awkward way of putting it.

The Saudi government spreads anti-Israel propaganda. We are allies with Saudi Arabia.

Those of us who think we are too kindly to Israel, think of how kindly we are to Saudi Arabia.

True but it's hard to ignore that the 9-11 hijackers were Saudis and that Bin Laden is/was a Saudi and still has Saudi backers. I would assume if there was a straight up Saudi vs Israel conflict that we'd come down squarely on the side of the Israelis. Perhaps that's a poor assumption.

624 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:49:44am

re: #619 Martinsmithy

I would have thought it was still too cold in the Pacific Northwest for this type of activity: [Link: blogs.seattleweekly.com...]

But perhaps that's why they thought they could do it - fewer other people around!

I'm...dumbfounded.

625 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:49:50am

re: #619 Martinsmithy

I would have thought it was still too cold in the Pacific Northwest for this type of activity: [Link: blogs.seattleweekly.com...]

But perhaps that's why they thought they could do it - fewer other people around!

Dang, the photog got there before the cops cut her down. Amazing stuff out there is this world.

626 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:50:43am

What's next? Words of praise for Goldstone?

627 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:50:52am

re: #618 Spare O'Lake

I freely criticize specific actions by the Israeli's, but I think that a lot of people in the West do not realize the culpability of the other Arab states in the Palestinian conflict. Certainly most of those in the Arab world don't understand it. They need a Thomas Paine over there, but their religiosity is such that he'd probably been put to death already. I'm glad ours wasn't, though for a long while after the revolution people discounted his contributions because of his attacks on religion.

628 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:50:53am

re: #617 Obdicut

fine. i'll stop using it. note that it also appears to be short for progressives among people who like to shorten long words when they type. seems like that would be the easiest assumption. do i seem like the kind of person who just likes to go around being intentionally insulting.

'preciate the benefit of the doubt...

629 laZardo  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:51:34am

re: #620 Decatur Deb

I keep saying it: It's all in the context and intent.

For example... when I say 'conservatives.'

/is it big brush time now?

630 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:51:41am

re: #620 Decatur Deb

I keep saying it: It's all in the context and intent.

i know, right? because i'm always spraying poo around with a 'born to lose' tattoo on my forehead. sheesh.

631 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:52:50am

re: #606 Spare O'Lake

Noone is asking the Palestinians to take Israel's word for anything. However they must once and for all be disabused of the notion that they have nothing to lose by maintaining their rejectionist stance, and that is what Israel's settlement policy is hopefully going to teach them.
The deal is not going to get better for the Palestinians, only worse, and the sooner they realize that the better for all concerned.

Hey man, like I said before. Israel has the power to make peace. The ball is in their court. If they want to keep annexing land, they certainly have the power to do so. The U.S. certainly isn't going to stop them. But if you think for one second that the Palestinians are going to "learn" anything from Israel taking more and more of the land they feel is theirs, you're hallucinating.

It's precisely this paternalistic attitude that I find so shocking. Like the Palestinians are children that Israel needs to "teach" before this problem can be resolved. Each side must take responsibility and compromise if there is ever going to be peace. Right now it looks like Israel will be satisfied with maintaining the status quo, and keeping the Palestinians walled off in some sort of an apartheid quasi-state indefinitely. But if that's the case, they can expect there to be violence that never ceases.

632 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:53:27am

re: #622 MandyManners

I never thought I would see the day on LGF where Israel's right to not be bombarded by suicide bombers in their pizzarias--and by rockets made out of the very infrastructure they gave to the Gazans--would be attacked.

Unfuckingbelievable.

it's ok. they're getting an ass-whooping, figuratively speaking.

633 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:53:33am

re: #621 drcordell

Bzzz. Wrong. Gaza has a shared border with Egypt. Egypt too restricts items into Gaza because they're shipping weapons for war against Israel. Humanitarian relief gets in with no problems. There isn't a humanitarian crisis in Gaza unless Hamas decides it is necessary for a few photo ops.

Power was allowed into Gaza all through Operation Cast Lead - even though Hamas was in control in Gaza and even when Hamas fired on the very power stations providing power to Gaza. If Israel ever cut power, it would be called a collective punishment against Israel (which was why Hamas tried taking out the power station - so that it could make that very claim).

People are allowed to enter Israel if they clear security - and Hamas has repeatedly attempted attacks against the border crossings and to infiltrate the border to engage in terror attacks, kidnappings, etc.

You're proposing that Israel stop its security methods for what purpose? So Gazans can enter Israel to engage in terror attacks? Because that is what the end result would be even as some Gazans would no longer be inconvenienced by the security checkpoints (even as Israelis remain inconvenienced by bomb shelters and the need for constant vigilance against infiltrators, rocket attacks, terror attacks, suicide bombings, etc.).

634 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:53:54am

re: #623 Locker

I do think that's a poor assumption, but only because I really don't understand the complexity of those kinds of decision. I know we didn't aid them in the 6-Day War or the Yom Kippur War.

I don't know, but I don't make the assumption, that's all.

635 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:53:56am

re: #573 Guanxi88

G'Morning, all!

At the end of this month/early April, your truly will be purchasing his first motor vehicle intended for his own use. I'm damned near 40 now, and will actually have to start driving, daily.

Looking at my vehicular options, and in recognition of the fact that I'm not a Rockefeller, I've narrowed down the range of vehicle options somewhat.

A fellow - a mechanic, and who doesn't need to know a good mechanic? - has recommended I look at either a Volvo 240, or, he says, if I really want to get fancy with it, and don't mind having the same vehicle for the net ten or more years, a mercedes 300d.

His advice was the volvo would do me for a while, and that what it lacked in comforts and efficiency, it made up for in survivability. The mercedes, he said, would survive under just about any conceivable crash situation, and has the added benefit of being a german-made diesel, and thus should be good for around 500K miles.

Anyone here had any experiences with either type, or could suggest other alternatives? I've looked at the older toyotas and hondas, and find them simply out of my price range.

Pony up for a quality vehicle. It may hurt, but unlike owning a lemon, it'll only hurt once.

636 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:54:06am

re: #617 Obdicut

It's short for progressives among people who consider progressives fools and moral midgets. Progressivism, such as practiced by the guys at the [Link: www.trumanproject.org...] , is a respectable position. I don't share a lot with progressives (except on social issues), but they make serious attempts to make their case and deserve fair hearing.

It's like "libbie", or "neocon", but "neocon" as said by their dire opposite.

Furthermore, most of the people labelled as 'progs'-- like Pelosi and Boxer, are so goddamn far from progressives it makes my teeth hurt. The progressives would love to take out Pelosi.

People who use the shorthand 'prog' do not know what progressivism is, and they use it as insulting slang meant to capture everyone 'left' enough to have voted for Obama.

It's a term I generally only see on the wingnuttiest of wingnut sites, and it betrays both an intent to insult and a total ignorance of politics.

637 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:54:48am

re: #596 Varek Raith

This drives my younger brother up the wall.
Prog = Progressive Metal
not leftwing boogie men.

That's why I spell it with two Gs.

638 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:54:50am

re: #631 drcordell

Hmmm, it would help it the Palestinians would stop lobbing rockets and teaching their kids to hate Israelis on a daily basis.

639 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:55:17am

re: #628 Aceofwhat?

Oh, no problem. But it's kind of like "Jap", which would appear, like "Brit" to just be a shortening of "Japanese", but because of the context it is primarily used in, is generally going to be held to be insulting and should obviously never be used.

Though the mislabeling of people as progressives is a more difficult problem.

And I'm always happy to grant you the benefit of the doubt.

640 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:55:17am

re: #615 shiplord kirel

You can read too much into a suicide by cop mental case.

641 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:55:20am

re: #630 Aceofwhat?

i know, right? because i'm always spraying poo around with a 'born to lose' tattoo on my forehead. sheesh.

Might be time for another dictionary. I call myself a lefty, or liberal. The only reasons I don't use "Progressive" are to avoid confusion with TR's people, and because some lefties wimped to it when Gingrich tried to make "liberal" sound dirty.

642 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:55:28am

Darn. BBL!

643 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:55:46am

re: #628 Aceofwhat?

fine. i'll stop using it. note that it also appears to be short for progressives among people who like to shorten long words when they type. seems like that would be the easiest assumption. do i seem like the kind of person who just likes to go around being intentionally insulting.

'preciate the benefit of the doubt...

Just saying, it's not a term progressives themselves use even when writing quickly.

644 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:56:20am

re: #631 drcordell

Hey man, like I said before. Israel has the power to make peace. The ball is in their court. If they want to keep annexing land, they certainly have the power to do so. The U.S. certainly isn't going to stop them. But if you think for one second that the Palestinians are going to "learn" anything from Israel taking more and more of the land they feel is theirs, you're hallucinating.

It's precisely this paternalistic attitude that I find so shocking. Like the Palestinians are children that Israel needs to "teach" before this problem can be resolved. Each side must take responsibility and compromise if there is ever going to be peace. Right now it looks like Israel will be satisfied with maintaining the status quo, and keeping the Palestinians walled off in some sort of an apartheid quasi-state indefinitely. But if that's the case, they can expect there to be violence that never ceases.

hey man, like i said before. walls and checkpoints = power to keep bombs and rockets out.

over here in logictown, we usually leave it incumbent on the crazies to quit it with the bombs and rockets first...then the checkpoints become unnecessary.

logictown has no checkpoint, though...you're welcome to visit anytime!

645 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:56:21am

re: #569 drcordell

How exactly did they "relinquish" control? Gaza is still completely fenced in, and segregated by dozens of Israeli military checkpoints. Honestly, if you lived there would you consider yourself free of Israeli control? I know I wouldn't.

All they had to do was recognize Israel and make peace after the withdrawal, and they would have a blooming economy right now.

The elected Hamas instead.

Honestly, Doc, I like you, but you seem to understand about as much about Israel as Idiota the Atheofascist Concern Troll. To whom I replied here.

646 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:56:29am

re: #634 Obdicut

I do think that's a poor assumption, but only because I really don't understand the complexity of those kinds of decision. I know we didn't aid them in the 6-Day War or the Yom Kippur War.

I don't know, but I don't make the assumption, that's all.

The US did provide aid to Israel during the Yom Kippur War when it looked like Israel might get overrun, particularly in the early days when the IAF came upon the Soviet SAM threat over Egypt and Syria. Kissinger and Nixon put together an aid package. That action also spurred the oil embargo/crisis in the US.

The US provision of aid to Israel began in 1967 after the French withdrew their military contracts after the 6 Day War. It grew significantly after 1973.

647 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:57:29am

re: #645 Cato the Elder

Atheofascist

So stealing that.
;)

648 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:57:30am

re: #636 iceweasel

People who use the shorthand 'prog' do not know what progressivism is, and they use it as insulting slang meant to capture everyone 'left' enough to have voted for Obama.

It's a term I generally only see on the wingnuttiest of wingnut sites, and it betrays both an intent to insult and a total ignorance of politics.

what was the term you used? fucking rubbish?

there was no ill intent on my part. inventing such intent diminishes you. you're better than that.

649 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:57:32am

re: #643 iceweasel

That's an important point. It's not a self-applied term, ever, and I think that's why it raises hackles so much. I can generally assume someone calling something 'prog' is not actually correct in saying that whatever it is, is actually part of the 'progressives'.

650 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:58:01am

re: #633 lawhawk

Bzzz. Wrong. Gaza has a shared border with Egypt. Egypt too restricts items into Gaza because they're shipping weapons for war against Israel. Humanitarian relief gets in with no problems. There isn't a humanitarian crisis in Gaza unless Hamas decides it is necessary for a few photo ops.

Power was allowed into Gaza all through Operation Cast Lead - even though Hamas was in control in Gaza and even when Hamas fired on the very power stations providing power to Gaza. If Israel ever cut power, it would be called a collective punishment against Israel (which was why Hamas tried taking out the power station - so that it could make that very claim).

People are allowed to enter Israel if they clear security - and Hamas has repeatedly attempted attacks against the border crossings and to infiltrate the border to engage in terror attacks, kidnappings, etc.

You're proposing that Israel stop its security methods for what purpose? So Gazans can enter Israel to engage in terror attacks? Because that is what the end result would be even as some Gazans would no longer be inconvenienced by the security checkpoints (even as Israelis remain inconvenienced by bomb shelters and the need for constant vigilance against infiltrators, rocket attacks, terror attacks, suicide bombings, etc.).

Stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say anything about "Israel stopping its security methods." I'm simply acknowledging the truth. Yes, Egypt has a border they control with Gaza. But the vast majority of border crossings out of Gaza are with Israel. And the vast majority of trade that occurs in Gaza is between Israel and Gaza.

Nobody is saying that Egypt doesn't have any culpability in this problem. But at the end of the day, it's going to be negotiations between Israel and Gaza that resolve this problem. Acting like it's all on the Arab states to resolve the issue is simply a tactic to deflect and stall any substantive discussion about Israel and what concessions may have to be made to secure peace.

651 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:58:08am

re: #622 MandyManners

I never thought I would see the day on LGF where Israel's right to not be bombarded by suicide bombers in their pizzarias--and by rockets made out of the very infrastructure they gave to the Gazans--would be attacked.

Unfuckingbelievable.

It sucks the big one.

652 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:58:11am

re: #643 iceweasel

Just saying, it's not a term progressives themselves use even when writing quickly.

then just say that. see how easy that is?

sheesh.

653 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:58:23am

re: #636 iceweasel

People who use the shorthand 'prog' do not know what progressivism is, and they use it as insulting slang meant to capture everyone 'left' enough to have voted for Obama.

It's a term I generally only see on the wingnuttiest of wingnut sites, and it betrays both an intent to insult and a total ignorance of politics.

Maybe my threshold for hurt is just too high for blogging. Never once felt hostility behind Prog. Perhaps there's a lesson in there for us all.

654 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:58:25am

re: #646 lawhawk

Sorry, Lawhawk, I meant military aid. I should have made that clear.

Do we have any mutual defense treaties? I'm just ignorant about that.

655 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:59:00am

Ever hear someone talk who so fits a caricature that you think they must be trying to be funny? Except they aren't trying to be funny, they're serious.

656 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:59:09am

re: #634 Obdicut

I do think that's a poor assumption, but only because I really don't understand the complexity of those kinds of decision. I know we didn't aid them in the 6-Day War or the Yom Kippur War.

I don't know, but I don't make the assumption, that's all.

If you're referring to Israel, we did aid them in '73. Nixon's airlift of supplies, over much internal opposition in his administration, and racing against a massive Soviet resupply of Syria and Egypt, rescued Israel from possible defeat and subsequent extermination.

657 laZardo  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:59:10am

re: #621 drcordell

The two demands repeatedly placed on the Hamas government after their election - that would have resulted in more open borders and development - were simply to renounce violence and accept peaceful Palestinian co-existence with Israel, both expressly forbidden in their Covenant.

Hamas' remarkable ability to play regional politics and pull the right media "tragedy" heartstrings has hardly obscured the fact that they refuse to do so.

658 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:59:12am

re: #647 Varek Raith

So stealing that.
;)

Heh. One of my better neologisms. Right up there with "apocolyptogasmic".

659 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 8:59:55am

re: #652 Aceofwhat?

then just say that. see how easy that is?

sheesh.

I did, Ace. And I have. Many, many times before here.
Some people keep using it.
See how easy it is to avoid? For a normal person like you.

660 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:00:06am

What's next? A diatribe about the "Israeli lobby" in the U.S.? Praise for Mearsheimer? Praise for Samantha Powers?

661 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:00:15am

re: #623 Locker

True but it's hard to ignore that the 9-11 hijackers were Saudis and that Bin Laden is/was a Saudi and still has Saudi backers. I would assume if there was a straight up Saudi vs Israel conflict that we'd come down squarely on the side of the Israelis. Perhaps that's a poor assumption.

Dhimmi Britain certainly would not.

662 laZardo  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:00:16am

re: #641 Decatur Deb

Might be time for another dictionary. I call myself a lefty, or liberal. The only reasons I don't use "Progressive" are to avoid confusion with TR's people, and because some lefties wimped to it when Gingrich tried to make "liberal" sound dirty.

I've thought of myself as a "pragmatic progressive."

Pragprog actually sounds pretty funny if not a bit Russian.

663 shiplord kirel  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:00:21am

re: #640 Rightwingconspirator

You can read too much into a suicide by cop mental case.

I'm not reading anything into it. Those are all publicly declared positions the man had. That's a fact. Those positions are also well represented at the tea parties, which is a reasonable observation, documented many times here. People who are not suicidal nutcases have those same affiliations and beliefs.
I would not attribute him to either the left or right politically, but that is only because I do not attribute such an affiliation to the movement of which he is obviously an adherent.

664 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:00:23am

re: #643 iceweasel

Just saying, it's not a term progressives themselves use even when writing quickly.

Wrong. It never occurred to me not to apply it to myself and other progs.

665 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:00:54am

re: #658 Cato the Elder

Heh. One of my better neologisms. Right up there with "apocolyptogasmic".

Heh, another gem to pilfer!

666 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:01:35am

re: #650 drcordell

Acting like it's all on the Arab states to resolve the issue is simply a tactic to deflect and stall any substantive discussion about Israel and what concessions may have to be made to secure peace.

I resent that accusation, Cordell. If you'll recall, I've defended you many times, but the Arab states are, in general, highly corrupt regimes. Israel, for its many flaws, is a democracy-- in some ways, a free-er democracy than ours. The Arab states are using the conflict with Israel, through state-sponsored propaganda, as a major tool to control their own populations.

While that still occurs, Israel will always be in danger. The solution to that is highly debatable, but Israel could concede everything up to the existence of Israel itself and still be under existential threat.

That does not mean their individual actions cannot be criticized, but to place the major burden on them is ridiculous. They cannot control Saudi Arabia's state propaganda against them.

667 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:01:37am

re: #660 MandyManners

What's next? A diatribe about the "Israeli lobby" in the U.S.? Praise for Mearsheimer? Praise for Samantha Powers?

I hate it when you make me upding you.

And I know the reverse is true, too. Respect.

668 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:01:51am

re: #660 MandyManners

What's next? A diatribe about the "Israeli lobby" in the U.S.? Praise for Mearsheimer? Praise for Samantha Powers?

Next thing we know people will defend having an avatar portraying Calvin pissing on INRI or the name Jesus.
Where will the madness end?

669 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:01:57am

re: #655 cliffster

That happens to me with conservatives quite a bit. I hear a lot of moving the goal posts and lack of responsibility from them. I think that fits the caricature.

670 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:01:58am

re: #644 Aceofwhat?

hey man, like i said before. walls and checkpoints = power to keep bombs and rockets out.

over here in logictown, we usually leave it incumbent on the crazies to quit it with the bombs and rockets first...then the checkpoints become unnecessary.

logictown has no checkpoint, though...you're welcome to visit anytime!

Well, I would imagine that if logictown were completely walled off and surrounded by military checkpoints, your perspective might change a bit. You are effectively asking which came first, the chicken or the egg?

There are bombs that explode on both sides of the fence. You think a Palestinian mother whose child was killed by an Apache gunship cares that it was a hellfire missile that killed her child, and not a homemade katushya? You think an Israeli mother cares that her child was killed with a katushya as opposed to a hellfire? No. It doesn't matter. It's two dead children with two grieving mothers. Both sides need to stop killing.

671 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:02:25am

re: #656 The Sanity Inspector

Yeah, sorry, I meant actually direct military support. Apologies again.

672 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:02:35am

I do believe I just heard a massive 'ZING'...

673 laZardo  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:02:42am

re: #655 cliffster

Ever hear someone talk who so fits a caricature that you think they must be trying to be funny? Except they aren't trying to be funny, they're serious.

Alex Jones' deep Texan drawl is still pretty funny even if he is serious. "INSAAAHD JAAAWWWB!"

His followers, on the other hand...

674 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:03:02am

re: #664 Decatur Deb

Wrong. It never occurred to me not to apply it to myself and other progs.

I thought you said you weren't a progressive. No? Didn't you just claim it only a name used by people too afraid to call themselves liberals?

675 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:03:07am

I'm gonna be smart and just lurk.

676 laZardo  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:03:13am

re: #668 iceweasel

Next thing we know people will defend having an avatar portraying Calvin pissing on INRI or the name Jesus.
Where will the madness end?

It won't if I can help it. To Photoshop! 8D

677 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:03:47am

re: #659 iceweasel

I did, Ace. And I have. Many, many times before here.
Some people keep using it.
See how easy it is to avoid? For a normal person like you.

never seen it before. and i read a lot. don't appreciate being tarred for the unintentional "offense".

you're sucking the fun out of this. just so you know.

678 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:04:07am

re: #672 Varek Raith

I do believe I just heard a massive 'ZING'...

Why yes, I believe you did. :)

679 laZardo  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:04:14am

re: #674 iceweasel

They can call each other that. Just like how hip-hoppers freely toss the N word about and how gays can call each other 'fags' without being censored on TV.

/oh yeah, I watched that South Park episode too.

680 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:04:48am

re: #662 laZardo

I've thought of myself as a "pragmatic progressive."

Pragprog actually sounds pretty funny if not a bit Russian.

:D Sounds like it should be connected with JibJab, somehow.

681 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:04:49am

re: #664 Decatur Deb

Wrong. It never occurred to me not to apply it to myself and other progs.

Now I shall have to go back and examine 5 months of LGF threads to see if I should feel hurt. I was so hoping to go to the beach this Spring.

682 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:04:51am

re: #675 Cannadian Club Akbar

I'm gonna be smart and just lurk.

Make yourself useful. My microwave has developed a macro-stink, and I wanna get rid of it. What's the best remedy? I usually slice up a lemon, put it in a Pyrex bowl full of water, and nuke the whole thing for about 10 minutes, but I'm open to suggestion.

683 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:05:33am

See ya later, lizards!

684 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:05:43am

re: #670 drcordell

Actually, I can think of just a country.

Israel.

Israel was completely walled off from its neighbors because those neighbors sought nothing but war. Lebanon and Syria are still technically at war with Israel and do not have an armistice with Israel. Jordan and Egypt signed peace treaties, but even now Israel and Egypt's common border is armed because of ongoing threats posed by Gazans who first enter Egypt's Sinai to then cross into Israel via Egypt.

But for the Palestinian terrorism, Israel would not be responding against the terrorism. Period. Israel has shown far more restraint against such acts than any other nation on the planet.

Would Russia or the US tolerate thousands of rockets fired against their territory by a terror regime as Hamas did in 2006-2007-and even into 2009 after Cast Lead?

I think not. But for the terrorism, Israel would not have needed the checkpoints. In fact, the checkpoints became commonplace after the first Intifada when suicide bombings and attacks became commonplace.

Those kinds of attacks are now rare - precisely because of the success of those measures.

685 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:05:48am

re: #666 Obdicut

I think it is harder for Americans to assess the Arab - Israeli conflict because we have progressed past a large degree of ethnic hatred within our own country.

686 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:06:03am

re: #673 laZardo

Alex Jones' deep Texan drawl is still pretty funny even if he is serious. "INSAAAHD JAAAWWWB!"

His followers, on the other hand...

Houston boy. You can take the crazy outta houston, but ya can't take the houston outta the crazy. Or something.

687 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:06:11am

re: #677 Aceofwhat?

never seen it before. and i read a lot. don't appreciate being tarred for the unintentional "offense".

you're sucking the fun out of this. just so you know.

I'm not tarring you whatsoever. Apologies if I gave that impression.
I thought you were very cool about this honestly, and my post to you was meant to clarify or follow up on yours, and wasn't any kind of attack on you.
Apologies for my snark scattergun there.

688 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:06:36am

re: #660 MandyManners

What's next? A diatribe about the "Israeli lobby" in the U.S.? Praise for Mearsheimer? Praise for Samantha Powers?

You're denying the influence of AIPAC on U.S. policy towards Israel? It's not a coincidence that the debate regarding the Israeli Palestinian conflict within Israel is much more heated than the debate in the U.S. AIPAC has done an extremely good job of effectively cultivating their relationships within Washington. The Walt/Mearsheimer paper was unfairly smeared as anti-Semitic. AIPAC is by definition a Jewish lobby. Identifying it as such should not be controversial.

689 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:06:52am

re: #682 SixDegrees

Make yourself useful. My microwave has developed a macro-stink, and I wanna get rid of it. What's the best remedy? I usually slice up a lemon, put it in a Pyrex bowl full of water, and nuke the whole thing for about 10 minutes, but I'm open to suggestion.

That will work just fine.

690 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:07:13am

re: #686 Guanxi88

Houston boy. You can take the crazy outta houston, but ya can't take the houston outta the crazy. Or something.

Sorry. Dallas boy. Do a global replace of Houston with Dallas.

691 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:07:23am

re: #682 SixDegrees

Use an enzymatic cleaner, like for pet odors. Follow up with a bunch of yeast-- seriously, a bunch of yeast in warm water, let it rise.

But a good enzymatic cleaner is the best best, I've found. It's an organic problem.

692 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:07:39am

re: #681 Decatur Deb

Now I shall have to go back and examine 5 months of LGF threads to see if I should feel hurt. I was so hoping to go to the beach this Spring.

i'll split it with you. you want Feb-Jan or Dec-Nov//

693 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:07:46am

re: #653 Decatur Deb

I think it sounds very passive when I have read it on LGF "damn progs." Giggle

694 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:07:55am

re: #674 iceweasel

I thought you said you weren't a progressive. No? Didn't you just claim it only a name used by people too afraid to call themselves liberals?

No, I would not mind the name, it just seems a-historical. I might use Prog as shorthand for myself. There just isn't any emotional load on it for me.

695 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:08:17am

re: #671 Obdicut

Yeah, sorry, I meant actually direct military support. Apologies again.

No harm.

696 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:08:52am

re: #687 iceweasel

I'm not tarring you whatsoever. Apologies if I gave that impression.
I thought you were very cool about this honestly, and my post to you was meant to clarify or follow up on yours, and wasn't any kind of attack on you.
Apologies for my snark scattergun there.

cool. forgiven. done. let's go have more fun. i won't say it again.

697 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:09:30am

re: #693 prairiefire

I think it sounds very passive when I have read it on LGF "damn progs." Giggle

I get called "damn yankee" by family.

698 laZardo  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:09:32am

re: #680 The Sanity Inspector

Прагпрог.

/thank you, Character Map

699 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:09:43am

re: #682 SixDegrees

Make yourself useful. My microwave has developed a macro-stink, and I wanna get rid of it. What's the best remedy? I usually slice up a lemon, put it in a Pyrex bowl full of water, and nuke the whole thing for about 10 minutes, but I'm open to suggestion.

I'll repeat and encourage the enzymatic cleaner suggestion of obdicut. You'd not believe the fifty-five flavors of funk that can brew in a microwave.

700 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:09:43am

re: #691 Obdicut

Er, and something for the yeast to eat. Sorry.

701 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:09:52am

re: #697 Decatur Deb

I get called "damn yankee" by family.

you look like Ted Nugent??

702 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:10:13am

re: #700 Obdicut

Er, and something for the yeast to eat. Sorry.

you'll forgive yourself eventually

703 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:11:15am

re: #701 Aceofwhat?

you look like Ted Nugent??

From Pittsburgh, wife and 3 of the kids are Rebels.

704 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:11:21am

re: #682 SixDegrees

Make yourself useful. My microwave has developed a macro-stink, and I wanna get rid of it. What's the best remedy? I usually slice up a lemon, put it in a Pyrex bowl full of water, and nuke the whole thing for about 10 minutes, but I'm open to suggestion.

L.O.C, baby. I'm sure you have more than one friend who will sell it to you, and maybe try and recruit you at the same time.

705 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:11:23am

re: #684 lawhawk

Actually, I can think of just a country.

Israel.

Israel was completely walled off from its neighbors because those neighbors sought nothing but war. Lebanon and Syria are still technically at war with Israel and do not have an armistice with Israel. Jordan and Egypt signed peace treaties, but even now Israel and Egypt's common border is armed because of ongoing threats posed by Gazans who first enter Egypt's Sinai to then cross into Israel via Egypt.

But for the Palestinian terrorism, Israel would not be responding against the terrorism. Period. Israel has shown far more restraint against such acts than any other nation on the planet.

Would Russia or the US tolerate thousands of rockets fired against their territory by a terror regime as Hamas did in 2006-2007-and even into 2009 after Cast Lead?

I think not. But for the terrorism, Israel would not have needed the checkpoints. In fact, the checkpoints became commonplace after the first Intifada when suicide bombings and attacks became commonplace.

Those kinds of attacks are now rare - precisely because of the success of those measures.

You can keep talking about Palestinian terrorism until you are blue in the face. And you would be justified in doing so. Israel has every right to defend itself. The question is, at what point does Israel realize that unless it wants to occupy Gaza indefinitely, something needs to be done?

At what point does Israel grow tired of having to maintain an apartheid state directly across its borders? At what point does it become tiresome having to send Israeli soldiers into Gaza to defend settlers who continue to expand their settlements? At what point do IDF recruits tire of having to man checkpoints throughout the occupied Palestinian territories? I have no doubt that Israel can maintain the status quo indefinitely. The question is, does Israel want to?

706 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:11:33am

re: #682 SixDegrees

Make yourself useful. My microwave has developed a macro-stink, and I wanna get rid of it. What's the best remedy? I usually slice up a lemon, put it in a Pyrex bowl full of water, and nuke the whole thing for about 10 minutes, but I'm open to suggestion.

Hi, Six. Take a small to medium size sponge. Get it really sopping in a warm water mix of liquid dish detergent with a bit of Windex. Wring it out only a little and then put it in your microwave for 60 seconds. The ammonia in the windex will help get the food odor out of the vents.
Putting sponges in the microwave for 60 seconds also kills bacteria on them.

707 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:11:56am

re: #703 Decatur Deb

From Pittsburgh, wife and 3 of the kids are Rebels.

You say "yinz", they say "y'all", let's call the whole thing off? :)

708 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:12:19am

Heading to lunch, bbl.

709 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:12:52am

re: #705 drcordell

At what point does Israel grow tired of having to maintain an apartheid state directly across its borders? At what point does it become tiresome having to send Israeli soldiers into Gaza to defend settlers who continue to expand their settlements? At what point do IDF recruits tire of having to man checkpoints throughout the occupied Palestinian territories?

Israel is already tired of doing that.

710 zora  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:13:02am

[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

Did you guys see this?

Vatican hit by gay sex scandal

711 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:13:45am

re: #694 Decatur Deb

No, I would not mind the name, it just seems a-historical. I might use Prog as shorthand for myself. There just isn't any emotional load on it for me.

Bully for you that you don't find it personally offensive.

I'm telling you, that name is only used in the political blogosphere on wingnut sites to smear all liberal and Obama voters. It is NOT used by people to mean 'progressive'.

But, if you think it's fine to use it as meaning 'lib', or 'Dem', or 'left', go for it.
It won't make people on the left register here if that usage becomes synonymous with all those terms, and it isn't conducive to intelligent discussion when people elide those differences.

Other than that, go for it.

712 laZardo  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:13:52am

1:13 AM and I'm gonna attempt to sleep. z_Z Nighty!

713 badger1970  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:14:20am

re: #703 Decatur Deb
These Damn Yankees a sorta-super group from the early 90's

714 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:14:57am

re: #631 drcordell

Your meme is tired and outdated, and your prejudice is obvious.
Happy IAW, fuckwad.

715 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:15:03am

I doubt Charles would have been declared a Righteous Gentile if he trashed Israel's right to defend itself.

716 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:15:11am

re: #711 iceweasel

Bully for you that you don't find it personally offensive.

I'm telling you, that name is only used in the political blogosphere on wingnut sites to smear all liberal and Obama voters. It is NOT used by people to mean 'progressive'.

But, if you think it's fine to use it as meaning 'lib', or 'Dem', or 'left', go for it.
It won't make people on the left register here if that usage becomes synonymous with all those terms, and it isn't conducive to intelligent discussion when people elide those differences.

Other than that, go for it.

We have enough progs here already ;)

717 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:15:18am

re: #701 Aceofwhat?

you look like Ted Nugent??

Tommy Shaw.

718 shiplord kirel  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:15:27am

Weird dreams

I got up very early this morning, around 4:30, and went back to sleep an hour later despite having drunk quite a bit of coffee. This combination, deep sleep in spite of caffeine, usually induces vivid dreams, and this time was no exception.
In the dream, a neighbor of mine had told me that some stray cats he had been feeding had all had kittens at the same time. He brought them over in a big cardboard box. There about 40 of them and they were as small as mice. I had never seen anything so cute and I was eager to adopt one. Then I woke up.

Maybe I'm not showing my soft side enough. I still haven't replaced my dog, Roswell the Atomic Poodle, who died last year at the age of 15. Maybe I should get a cat this time.

719 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:15:59am

Re the "progg" tag. If you're curious, this conservative views it and deploys it in connection with thinking like this:

We who are liberal and progressive know that the poor are equal to us in every respect except that of being equal to us.
--Lionel Trilling

The poor we have always with us, and the purpose of the Lord in providing the poor is to enable us of the better classes to amuse ourselves by investigating them and uplifting them and at dinners telling how charitable we are. The poor don't like it much. They have no gratitude. ... But if they are taken firmly in hand they can be kept reasonably dependent and interesting for years."
-- Sinclair Lewis in the short story "Things" first published in the Saturday Evening Post in 1919

And those events in the spring of 2002--the chanting marchers, the
applauding intellectuals--typified a hundred other events all over the
United States and even more in Europe, not to mention Latin America
and other places. A cold cloud seemed to have gathered, and the
plunge in temperature was obvious, and out of the cloud dribbled
sinister droplets of appreciation for suicide murders--a perverse
appreciation expressed by civilized people who, not two or three
months earlier, would never have imagined themselves expressing any
such opinion.
-- Paul Berman, Terror and Liberalism, 2003

720 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:16:08am

re: #711 iceweasel

Bully for you that you don't find it personally offensive.

I'm telling you, that name is only used in the political blogosphere on wingnut sites to smear all liberal and Obama voters. It is NOT used by people to mean 'progressive'.

But, if you think it's fine to use it as meaning 'lib', or 'Dem', or 'left', go for it.
It won't make people on the left register here if that usage becomes synonymous with all those terms, and it isn't conducive to intelligent discussion when people elide those differences.

Other than that, go for it.

There is a true communication problem--I've probably been insulting some lizards while supporting them.

721 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:16:39am

re: #716 cliffster

We have enough progs here already ;)

Not yet. :)
But soon!

722 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:17:01am

re: #573 Guanxi88

Every Volvo owner I have know, about four, have all loved them, spent no money on them, and had them a lonng time.

723 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:17:14am

re: #719 The Sanity Inspector

I cannot even tell what that's supposed to be connected to. It's certainly not connected to progressivism.

724 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:18:20am

re: #711 iceweasel

wait...does this mean i also have to stop saying that libs are 'crazier an a snake's armpits'?

dang//

725 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:18:26am

re: #711 iceweasel

Bully for you that you don't find it personally offensive.

I'm telling you, that name is only used in the political blogosphere on wingnut sites to smear all liberal and Obama voters. It is NOT used by people to mean 'progressive'.

But, if you think it's fine to use it as meaning 'lib', or 'Dem', or 'left', go for it.
It won't make people on the left register here if that usage becomes synonymous with all those terms, and it isn't conducive to intelligent discussion when people elide those differences.

Other than that, go for it.

You make a great point, Mrs. Wordcop.
Can we say proglodyte instead or would that also scare away the lefties?

726 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:18:55am
727 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:19:03am

re: #713 badger1970

These Damn Yankees a sorta-super group from the early 90's


[Video]

don't tell me he didn't get the reference??

728 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:19:11am

re: #705 drcordell

At what point does Israel grow tired of having to maintain an apartheid state directly across its borders? At what point does it become tiresome having to send Israeli soldiers into Gaza to defend settlers who continue to expand their settlements? At what point do IDF recruits tire of having to man checkpoints throughout the occupied Palestinian territories? I have no doubt that Israel can maintain the status quo indefinitely. The question is, does Israel want to?

Bullshit.

Israel isn't going to occupy Gaza again. They decided against that in 2005 and the result was not peace, but war by Hamas against Israel.

Israel has not engaged in an apartheid state despite the media and anti-Israel sentiments claiming otherwise. Israel' soldiers are long tired of having to fight wars to defend Israel's very existence from regimes and terror groups wholly dedicated to Israel's destruction. Until those regimes and groups change or are eliminated, Israel will continue to defend itself. It has no other choice unless it wants to cease to exist. Period.

The last time Israel withdrew its military from territory in Gaza, the result was a rocket war. Israel's military continues to operate in the West Bank as per the Oslo Accords and following agreements with the Palestinian Authority - Wye and Gaza-Jericho accords. Look 'em up sometime. The civil administrative control is with the PA in the West Bank for 90% of the territory. Israel administers the rest - which is primarily where the Etzion bloc is located, along with Jerusalem, which are Israeli majority communities.

The PA has shown no interest in dropping the right of return or demands for Jerusalem. It's also shown no interest in any counterproposal for Israeli offers- demanding Israel make more concessions without anything in return but vague promises.

Sorry, but your history and knowledge of the situation is sorely lacking.

729 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:19:26am

re: #725 Spare O'Lake

I don't think it's likely to scare anyone. It's like to make people consider it yet another dumb attack phrase making politics more difficult to talk reasonably about.

730 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:19:33am

re: #722 prairiefire

Every Volvo owner I have know, about four, have all loved them, spent no money on them, and had them a lonng time.

It's true that they're built like tanks. Crazy safe, too, although used ones may not have all the latest gadgetry.

731 Locker  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:19:55am

re: #679 laZardo

They can call each other that. Just like how hip-hoppers freely toss the N word about and how gays can call each other 'fags' without being censored on TV.

/oh yeah, I watched that South Park episode too.

It's so funny that you mentioned this type of word usurption. I was just thinking that I'm going to start calling myself and my other progressive friends "prog" just like the AA community took the N word and starting using it in a different context.

I'll look at my prog homie and I say, "Prog! You KNOW those fools don't want single payer health care."

732 badger1970  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:20:14am

re: #727 Aceofwhat?

He did. I confused the poster names. oops

733 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:20:31am

re: #719 The Sanity Inspector

There are clearly two realms of "Progressive" one from the turn of the 19th Century, and one post-Gingrich. I subscribe to the serious thought behind both of them.

734 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:20:41am

re: #705 drcordell

You can keep talking about Palestinian terrorism until you are blue in the face. And you would be justified in doing so. Israel has every right to defend itself. The question is, at what point does Israel realize that unless it wants to occupy Gaza indefinitely, something needs to be done?

At what point does Israel grow tired of having to maintain an apartheid state directly across its borders? At what point does it become tiresome having to send Israeli soldiers into Gaza to defend settlers who continue to expand their settlements? At what point do IDF recruits tire of having to man checkpoints throughout the occupied Palestinian territories? I have no doubt that Israel can maintain the status quo indefinitely. The question is, does Israel want to?

Jimmah Carter, is that you?

735 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:20:49am

re: #691 Obdicut

Why the yeast? Your putting organic compounds back in the vents?

736 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:22:03am

re: #735 prairiefire

Yes, and the yeast will feast on the decaying sugars and stuff, and the aftersmell of yeast byproducts is much nicer.

So really, I'd recommend: Enzyme treatment, yeast, then enzyme treatment again.

737 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:22:05am

re: #725 Spare O'Lake

You make a great point, Mrs. Wordcop.
Can we say proglodyte instead or would that also scare away the lefties?

It's Ms.
Poor Spare. I know you're hurtin after this.

You can call 'progs' proglodyte, if you like, and we'll keep calling you troglodyte. :)

738 Locker  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:22:26am

re: #707 oaktree

You say "yinz", they say "y'all", let's call the whole thing off? :)

The proper pronunciation is "You'inz". Castle Shannon baby!

739 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:23:29am

re: #731 Locker

It's so funny that you mentioned this type of word usurption.

I'll look at my prog homie and I say, "Prog! You KNOW those fools don't want single payer health care."

It might be fun, actually.
We'll take it back, bitches! Oh yeah.

740 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:23:48am

re: #738 Locker

The proper pronunciation is "You'inz". Castle Shannon baby!

And people make fun of the way I talk.
/

741 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:24:31am

re: #726 MandyManners

Hamas.

Israel.

Shorter.

742 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:24:34am

re: #739 iceweasel

It might be fun, actually.
We'll take it back, bitches! Oh yeah.

I'm truly offended that I've missed so many chances to be offended.

743 webevintage  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:25:10am

re: #501 darthstar

Mornin' folks...getting ready to drive up to Tahoe so I can't stay long. But for those of you who thought Sarah Palin killed them on the Tonight Show with her stand up routine, you might want to take a look at this first hand report.

Yeah, I thought it seemed weird that the applause and laughs were so loud for her when the jokes really, really sucked.

744 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:25:42am

re: #736 Obdicut

I can't make yeast breads from scratch. Rising yeast makes my head explode with allergic activity.

745 Locker  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:26:34am

re: #740 Cannadian Club Akbar

And people make fun of the way I talk.
/

Canadian Club does have an affect on the way I talk as well. Can't be helped ;)

746 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:27:10am

re: #741 The Sanity Inspector

Shorter.

Worth a thousand words.

747 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:27:12am

re: #729 Obdicut

I don't think it's likely to scare anyone. It's like to make people consider it yet another dumb attack phrase making politics more difficult to talk reasonably about.

I really wish you would stop being so reasonable, it's driving me crazy!

748 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:27:21am

re: #744 prairiefire

That sucks. I love the smell of rising yeast. I would have made a great brewmaster.

749 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:27:21am

re: #732 badger1970

He did. I confused the poster names. oops

thank god. out of context, asking someone if they look like Nugent is prob almost as offensive as calling them a prog!!

//

750 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:27:21am

Errands, good afternoon to all.

751 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:27:46am

re: #747 Spare O'Lake

Don't worry, it drives me crazy sometimes, too.

752 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:28:24am

re: #748 Obdicut

I'm descended from a scottish master brewer......

753 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:28:32am

re: #748 Obdicut

That sucks. I love the smell of rising yeast. I would have made a great brewmaster.

I call bullshit. Come to my house and prove it.
//

754 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:29:22am

re: #739 iceweasel

It might be fun, actually.
We'll take it back, bitches! Oh yeah.

NSFW - but so on point!!

756 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:29:51am

re: #753 Cannadian Club Akbar

With so many awesome microbrews around, I mainly am on the drink end of beer production. Though I did work at the Anchor brewery for awhile. It was awesome.

Though the work fucking sucked. But the smell and benefits were great.

757 Locker  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:29:52am

re: #749 Aceofwhat?

thank god. out of context, asking someone if they look like Nugent is prob almost as offensive as calling them a prog!!

//

Any comparison to Ted Nugent is so much more offensive than calling me a prog that I can't even properly communicate it. Sorry to any fans of his but there is no doubt that if you looked up the word "tool" in the dictionary you'd find his bow stretching mug smiling back at you.

758 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:29:53am

re: #729 Obdicut

I don't think it's likely to scare anyone. It's like to make people consider it yet another dumb attack phrase making politics more difficult to talk reasonably about.

It makes people laugh at the people using it and conclude they don't know what they're talking about.

759 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:31:30am

re: #737 iceweasel

It's Ms.
Poor Spare. I know you're hurtin after this.

You can call 'progs' proglodyte, if you like, and we'll keep calling you troglodyte. :)

Sorry Ms. Proglodyte, but I scrolled right past that one and will try to remember to read it later.

760 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:33:01am

From Alex Jones' Prison Planet....
As Predicted, Pentagon Shooting Blamed On 9/11 Truth


Just two days after we warned of false flag domestic attacks that would be blamed on the federal government’s political adversaries were all but inevitable, a Californian man attacked the Pentagon last night in a shooting that wounded two police officers and has since been blamed on the John Patrick Bedell’s advocacy for 9/11 truth.
....
We pointed out that since examples of Americans committing violence in pursuit of their political beliefs, FBI patsy Timothy McVeigh aside, were thin on the ground, organizations like the SPLC were begging for such incidents to occur in order to provide the federal government with the pretext to crack down on dissent and silence free speech on the Internet.
....
The proximity of the incident to the release of the SPLC report is seamless and the implication is clear – anyone who demands that ‘justice be served’ in response to government corruption or anyone who demands the truth behind 9/11 be made public is a dangerous extremist who is likely to go on a shooting rampage.
761 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:33:33am

re: #759 Spare O'Lake

Don't worry. You will be reminded as many times as necessary until you quit it.

762 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:33:41am

re: #757 Locker

Any comparison to Ted Nugent is so much more offensive than calling me a prog that I can't even properly communicate it. Sorry to any fans of his but there is no doubt that if you looked up the word "tool" in the dictionary you'd find his bow stretching mug smiling back at you.

it was a funny conversation. was.

763 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:34:21am

A girl near Tampa went to her ex BF's house to egg it. She lost control of the car and hit a house. You can't make this shit up.

765 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:35:16am

re: #755 MandyManners

yikes

766 badger1970  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:36:05am

re: #763 Cannadian Club Akbar

That's one hell of a prank. //

During Halloween, the local HS cheerleaders sell "egging" insurance (as a fund raiser not a shakedown, I hope).

767 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:36:53am

re: #765 Aceofwhat?

yikes

A Progressive's dream.

768 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:36:57am

re: #765 Aceofwhat?

yikes

Check the date - it's 2005. There's got to be more current opinion pieces out there.

769 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:37:04am

"God bless the Muslims. They'll need it when they're burning in f-ing hell."


The group, which claims to be non-racist and pro-freedom of speech, but whose followers have been filmed shouting racist slogans and chanting support for the far-right British National Party, has mounted a series of anti-Muslim demonstrations around Britain since March last year.
...
Before marching towards parliament, the crowd was addressed by Guramit Singh -- virtually the only non-white EDL supporter present -- who claimed to be one of the "12 leaders" of the EDL. He called "on all religions" to "eradicate militant Islam".

Although Singh and a subsequent speaker at the rally occasionally made a distinction between "moderate" Muslims and "extremists", the crowd's biggest cheer was reserved for Singh's closing words:

"God bless the Christians, Jews, Sikhs, even God bless the Muslims -- they'll need it when they're burning in fucking hell."

770 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:37:57am

re: #767 MandyManners

A Progressive's dream.

Define 'progressive', Mandy. What do you think it means?

771 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:38:53am

Sorry--hamster crash.

Now who was offending me? (I did catch the reference to Nugent, but hardly know of him. It must be really hard to offend someone who knows none of your allusions.)

772 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:39:29am

re: #755 MandyManners

I think that Mr. Liu was accurate in his assessment of Mr. Roberts.

773 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:39:56am

re: #767 MandyManners

A progressive's dream would probably be Laura Murphy.

You don't tend to apply the label of 'progressive' correctly.

774 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:40:18am

re: #771 Decatur Deb

Sorry--hamster crash.

Now who was offending me?

Trollcat, probably.

776 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:41:52am

re: #768 Stanley Sea

Check the date - it's 2005. There's got to be more current opinion pieces out there.

the old opinion of a current nominee feels currently valid. unless i miss my mark...

777 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:42:09am

re: #770 iceweasel

Define 'progressive', Mandy. What do you think it means?

I don't know what Mandy may think it means, but over at Deuce, it's their favorite pejorative for Eeevul Jazz Guitarist.

778 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:42:13am

re: #774 iceweasel

Beautiful. Do have an entire thesaurus of those.

779 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:42:47am

re: #772 prairiefire

I think that Mr. Liu was accurate in his assessment of Mr. Roberts.

he didn't let gay marriage stand in DC? boy, did i read that opinion wrong...

780 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:44:14am

re: #779 Aceofwhat?

I think that the Supreme court acted in an activist way and just jerked the whole apparatus of campaign finance laws 45 degrees to the right.

781 torrentprime  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:44:24am

re: #779 Aceofwhat?

he didn't let gay marriage stand in DC? boy, did i read that opinion wrong...

No, he just said that the idea that the rights of minorities should be subject to popular vote had "legal force." No big.

782 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:44:36am

re: #771 Decatur Deb

Sorry--hamster crash.

Now who was offending me? (I did catch the reference to Nugent, but hardly know of him. It must be really hard to offend someone who knows none of your allusions.)

he was in the band Damn Yankees. you set me up well, but not all my jokes pan out the way i hope. i'll try again soon!

783 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:45:01am

Swell - More processed food fun.

Despite the huge scope of this problem, this is the first I've heard of it.

784 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:45:30am

re: #708 drcordell

Heading to lunch, bbl.

What, Doc, no reply to my #645? That's uncharacteristic.

Then again, it pretty much gobsmacked Idioma into silence, too.

[bows]

You're welcome.

785 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:45:41am

re: #780 prairiefire

I think that the Supreme court acted in an activist way and just jerked the whole apparatus of campaign finance laws 45 degrees to the right.

i won this debate yesterday, with assistance from lawhawk. go read.

786 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:46:18am

re: #782 Aceofwhat?

I've got big gps in my pop culture--too many periods w/o US television.

787 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:46:44am

re: #783 SixDegrees

Swell - More processed food fun.

Despite the huge scope of this problem, this is the first I've heard of it.

That is why I only eat stuff that moves.
/

788 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:46:57am

re: #781 torrentprime

No, he just said that the idea that the rights of minorities should be subject to popular vote had "legal force." No big.

where? sorry to link-hound...give me a case name and i'll look it up on my own. not trying to get you to do all the work...

789 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:46:59am

re: #783 SixDegrees

It looks like it's a natural food supplier, too. Organic farming actually has sometimes high probabilities of contamination. Damn progs./

790 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:47:23am

re: #785 Aceofwhat?

Not in my opinion, you didn't. You argued well enough, but the point about the expansion of the scope is not dismissable.

791 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:49:24am

re: #790 Obdicut

I will rely, yet again, on a smarter Lizard's judgement.

792 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:49:52am

re: #783 SixDegrees

Swell - More processed food fun.

Despite the huge scope of this problem, this is the first I've heard of it.

I think it's because there's not much that can be done about it. Recalling everything might be impractical and could possibly result in a temporary food "shortage". There would be plenty of food available but people would have to cook it themselves from fresh ingredients. Some people might starve.

793 torrentprime  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:50:32am

re: #788 Aceofwhat?

where? sorry to link-hound...give me a case name and i'll look it up on my own. not trying to get you to do all the work...

No problem; I just realized I didn't support with a link anyway, which I should have.

Ruling

Discussion

794 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:50:49am

re: #790 Obdicut

Not in my opinion, you didn't. You argued well enough, but the point about the expansion of the scope is not dismissable.

not dismissable. just explained. the dissent agrees that the narrower constitutional points were rightly dismissed and then they sort of hiccup.

the broader point was all that remained. and it's senseless to make an 'as-applies ruling when it would apply across the board anyway as a result.

i received no coherent response to those points. happy to pick it up where we left off, though!

795 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:51:51am

re: #793 torrentprime

thanks! reading now.

796 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:52:25am

Bailing out for lunch--our town just got a "Cheeburger, Cheeburger". BBL

797 zora  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:53:08am

Hayworth Fundraising Ad Depicts 'Conservative Actor' McCain In Avatar-Like Warpaint

[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

798 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:53:11am

re: #793 torrentprime

linky no worky

799 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:54:01am

re: #795 Aceofwhat?

thanks! reading now.

You might want to consider the lack of partiality in the second link.

800 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:54:13am

re: #796 Decatur Deb

Bailing out for lunch--our town just got a "Cheeburger, Cheeburger". BBL

Order me one. Jalapeno cheese, onions and mustard. Thanks.

801 Racer X  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:54:33am

re: #792 Killgore Trout

I think it's because there's not much that can be done about it. Recalling everything might be impractical and could possibly result in a temporary food "shortage". There would be plenty of food available but people would have to cook it themselves from fresh ingredients. Some people might starve.

HVP looks like filler in junk food. Not many will starve.

802 MrSilverDragon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:55:04am

re: #796 Decatur Deb

Bailing out for lunch--our town just got a "Cheeburger, Cheeburger". BBL

Their shakes are tasty. One caution, do not get peanut butter as a condiment on your burger. It's foul. (Note, I only speak from other's experience, not my own... but there's no chance I'll put that on my burger.)

803 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:55:26am

re: #796 Decatur Deb

Bailing out for lunch--our town just got a "Cheeburger, Cheeburger". BBL

I've heard of Chai, but what is Chee?

804 torrentprime  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:55:33am

re: #798 Aceofwhat?

linky no worky

Scribd

805 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:55:47am

re: #799 MandyManners

You might want to consider the lack of partiality in the second link.

i didn't even bother clicking it. my reading comprehension scores are sufficient to just read the opinion...and look up precedents when necessary!

806 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:56:28am

re: #794 Aceofwhat?

I'm not really interested in arguing it. It's going to be creating massive problems soon enough, and will be in flux for awhile.

807 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:57:03am

re: #804 torrentprime

Scribd

no, i want the supremecourtus.gov link. or just the case number and i'll take it from there.

808 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:57:41am

re: #797 zora

Can you be racist about non-existent races?

What a lame attack ad. What's next, putting googly eyes and fake noses on your opponent?

Sheesh.

809 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:57:46am

re: #801 Racer X

HVP looks like filler in junk food. Not many will starve.

I was just skimming the recall list. Many of the products are "health foods" too. It's just crap they add to all processed and pre-prepared foods. Even "healthy" food are loaded with crap.

810 torrentprime  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:58:22am

re: #799 MandyManners

You might want to consider the lack of partiality in the second link.

You mean the discussion from the gay marriage supporter who said that the use of the non-discriminatory legislation may have been an over-reach, thus somewhat agreeing with the anti-marriage equality side? Yeah, we're definitely in unthinking liberal-lefty territory there.

/eyeroll

811 webevintage  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:58:43am

re: #755 MandyManners

BHO's nominee to fill a vacancy on the Ninth Circuit court, Goodwin Liu.

Wow, did he use a crystal ball or what?
Roberts, he loves him some corporations.

812 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:58:46am
813 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:59:05am

re: #806 Obdicut

I'm not really interested in arguing it. It's going to be creating massive problems soon enough, and will be in flux for awhile.

then someone should write a bill that does not abridge the First Amendment...

814 torrentprime  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:59:11am

re: #807 Aceofwhat?

no, i want the supremecourtus.gov link. or just the case number and i'll take it from there.

The full text of the opinion isn't enough?

815 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 9:59:41am

re: #787 Cannadian Club Akbar

That is why I only eat stuff that moves.
/

Lizards eat live insects.

816 zora  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:00:38am

re: #808 Obdicut

these attacks all seem to be thought up by fourth graders. obama as the joker. nancy pelosi as cruella deville. harry reid as scooby doo. sheesh is right. although i bet obama would like to give this town, dc, an emema.

817 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:01:03am

re: #813 Aceofwhat?

That's begging the question. I think that we're going to see the output of this decision soon, and that it will be negative, and we'll have a public discussion about it. If I'm wrong, and we don't see negative output, then, well, I'm wrong, and there won't be a large need for discussion.

Let me put it this way: I think you'll be far more likely to listen to what I have to say about it after you've seen some of the effects of the ruling, rather than just theoretical effects.

818 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:01:21am

re: #811 webevintage

Wow, did he use a crystal ball or what?
Roberts, he loves him some corporations.

Roberts - he loves that 1st Amendment - which does not allow Congress to enact any laws restricting the freedom of speech, which was precisely what M/F did. Repealing those provisions was precisely what was necessary to harmonize with a plain reading of the Constitution and existing law on who is protected by the 1st Amendment - corporations, which are treated as a corporeal person under the law.

819 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:01:36am

"Modern Family" has me laughing lately.

820 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:01:39am

re: #801 Racer X

HVP looks like filler in junk food. Not many will starve.

It's a "flavor enhancer." Judging from the "hydrolyzed" bit, it sounds like a stand-in for transfat, which is now on everyone's shit list and which was originally developed to replace the awesome taste of lard.

I've seen a couple of articles recently praising lard. Sounds like it's reputation is being rehabilitated. It's hard to beat the taste of saturated fat, and the substitutes that have been used in it's place in response to fat hysteria seem to be far worse than the original offender.

821 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:02:06am

re: #814 torrentprime

The full text of the opinion isn't enough?

sorry, you're right - it's all there.

so which part did you read as unfair?

822 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:02:06am

re: #802 MrSilverDragon

Their shakes are tasty. One caution, do not get peanut butter as a condiment on your burger. It's foul. (Note, I only speak from other's experience, not my own... but there's no chance I'll put that on my burger.)

I would never try that. Not even if I still inhaled.

823 webevintage  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:02:30am

Speaking of Gay Marriage, Bill Moyer had Ted Olson and David Boies the two attorneys who argued against Prop 8 on his show Friday.
Good, informative interview if you have the time to watch or read the transcript.

[Link: www.pbs.org...]

824 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:02:31am

re: #820 SixDegrees

I've been told that lard is the only thing to use when making tortillas.

825 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:03:08am

re: #810 torrentprime

I admit I did not read far. My apologies.

826 torrentprime  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:03:12am

re: #818 lawhawk

Roberts - he loves that 1st Amendment - which does not allow Congress to enact any laws restricting the freedom of speech, which was precisely what M/F did. Repealing those provisions was precisely what was necessary to harmonize with a plain reading of the Constitution and existing law on who is protected by the 1st Amendment - corporations, which are treated as a corporeal person under the law.

And the connection between free speech and campaign contributions is... what? Something a strict constructionist would see in the plain text of the 1st Amendment?

827 webevintage  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:03:20am

re: #819 prairiefire

"Modern Family" has me laughing lately.

Funny, funny show.
Might be the best new show this TV season.

828 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:03:49am

re: #817 Obdicut

That's begging the question. I think that we're going to see the output of this decision soon, and that it will be negative, and we'll have a public discussion about it. If I'm wrong, and we don't see negative output, then, well, I'm wrong, and there won't be a large need for discussion.

Let me put it this way: I think you'll be far more likely to listen to what I have to say about it after you've seen some of the effects of the ruling, rather than just theoretical effects.

agree to disagree. the ban on soft money was not lifted, nor were the disclosure requirements. our democracy will survive intact = my prediction.

but i'll send you a fat bottle of Sapphire if i'm wrong!

829 torrentprime  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:04:02am

re: #821 Aceofwhat?

sorry, you're right - it's all there.

so which part did you read as unfair?

Did someone (besides you) say some part of the ruling was unfair?

830 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:04:25am

re: #818 lawhawk

which are treated as a corporeal person under the law.

Actually, they're treated as somewhat corporeal persons, and somewhat not corporeal persons. And since they are not, in fact, corporeal persons, we should be very glad they're not actually treated fully as corporeal persons.

Corporations have certain advantages that corporeal persons don't-- they can live forever, they can also die and resurrect themselves and have this benefit their shareholders. Moreover, they can own other corporations, other corporeal bodies, and filter legal ramifications through those shell companies.

The legal system recognizes the difference between corporations and real people already, the discussion is how we deal with those differences while still preserving th inherent rights to property and assembly enacted through corporations.

831 torrentprime  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:04:40am

re: #819 prairiefire

"Modern Family" has me laughing lately.

This week's was one of the best this season, imho.

832 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:05:01am

re: #36 iceweasel

apologies if this has already been posted:

Indiana’s ‘sovereign citizens’ renounce their U.S. citizenship, claim to secede from the Union.

Similar groups of “sovereign citizens” have been reported in several other states as well.
ADL link for background info on the movement.

It will be deliciously ironic if their first prison job entails making New Hampshire license plates with the "Live Free or Die" motto on them.

833 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:05:48am

re: #824 prairiefire

I've been told that lard is the only thing to use when making tortillas.

...and pie crust.

834 Racer X  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:05:55am

re: #809 Killgore Trout

I was just skimming the recall list. Many of the products are "health foods" too. It's just crap they add to all processed and pre-prepared foods. Even "healthy" food are loaded with crap.

Yes I was surprised to see supposedly healthy foods have it. HVP is crap. I try to avoid it because it almost always has MSG in it.

835 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:06:03am

re: #828 Aceofwhat?

I think our democracy will survive. I just think there will be a negative effect. I don't tend towards hyperbole.

Also, I prefer Hendrickson's.

836 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:06:09am

re: #826 torrentprime

And the connection between free speech and campaign contributions is... what? Something a strict constructionist would see in the plain text of the 1st Amendment?

the ban on soft money contributions remains intact. repeated for emphasis.

but since you asked the question...you're right. upholding the right to free speech is not upholding the right to unlimited campaign contributions.

see? we do agree...

837 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:06:20am

re: #828 Aceofwhat?

agree to disagree. the ban on soft money was not lifted, nor were the disclosure requirements. our democracy will survive intact = my prediction.

but i'll send you a fat bottle of Sapphire if i'm wrong!

If you're wrong, Sapphire will only be available to people who vote the way the corporations want.

838 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:07:22am

re: #830 Obdicut

ugh. They can own other non-corporeal entities, not corporeal bodies. My bad.

839 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:07:44am

re: #830 Obdicut

Fair enough, but for purposes of the 1st Amendment, they are corporeal persons as had been established by decades of case law.

840 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:08:17am

re: #833 SixDegrees

...and pie crust.

And Granddma Utz potato chips. Cooked in lard, soooo good, but sooo bad for you!

841 Racer X  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:08:28am

re: #827 webevintage

Funny, funny show.
Might be the best new show this TV season.

I especially liked the episode with the kid sitting in the kitchen with a bottle of Jaegermeister and his sister trying to kill a rat.

842 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:09:28am

re: #829 torrentprime

Did someone (besides you) say some part of the ruling was unfair?

you said

No, he just said that the idea that the rights of minorities should be subject to popular vote had "legal force." No big.

the tone implies you find it...well...if 'unfair' is not precise enough, then let's just say you disagree.

although isn't this what we do in a democracy...vote on things?

843 zora  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:09:37am

re: #832 negativ

i wish the people who renounce their citizenship would have to get the fuck out of america. the next person on the immigration list should get to come here and the secessionist can go to their country.

844 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:10:09am

re: #840 Mad Al-Jaffee

And Granddma Utz potato chips. Cooked in lard, sooo good, but sooo bad for you!

Health nuts will be embarrassed when they die of nothing.

845 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:10:31am

re: #837 Cato the Elder

If you're wrong, Sapphire will only be available to people who vote the way the corporations want.

hilarious. as usual.

846 Locker  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:11:47am

re: #823 webevintage

Speaking of Gay Marriage, Bill Moyer had Ted Olson and David Boies the two attorneys who argued against Prop 8 on his show Friday.
Good, informative interview if you have the time to watch or read the transcript.

[Link: www.pbs.org...]

Great episode. Thanks for posting the link.

847 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:12:19am

The hot firefighter story line is so true.
My sis-in-laws cancer remission party was held at a Catholic church reception facility with kitchen. The fryer's smoked and set off the fire alarm. The hunky, young, gorgeous firefighters showed up and it turned into a party with my SIL's girl cousins and the firefighters.
I have got to get off LGF and get some stuff done. Later.

848 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:13:01am

re: #835 Obdicut

I think our democracy will survive. I just think there will be a negative effect. I don't tend towards hyperbole.

Also, I prefer Hendrickson's.

two apologies. one - my gentle sarcasm was not intended to imply you said more than you did.

two - you told me that before. i'll keep the sapphire and send you Hendricksons.

849 torrentprime  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:13:05am

re: #842 Aceofwhat?

you said

No, he just said that the idea that the rights of minorities should be subject to popular vote had "legal force." No big.

the tone implies you find it...well...if 'unfair' is not precise enough, then let's just say you disagree.

although isn't this what we do in a democracy...vote on things?

Oh, now you're not even trying. :)

Ok, I'll bite.
What kinds of things do we vote on in a constitutional republic? Things like slavery and the voting rights of women? Perhaps we should take a vote on whether or not to intern Muslims during the War on Terror. It's not like we have constitutional protections that override majority opinion or anything...

850 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:14:47am

re: #839 lawhawk

Actually, decades of case law have, previous to this ruling, restricted their speech. That's why this is a big deal.

It is not nearly as simplistic as saying that they are corporeal persons. It would be a better argument to make that they're treated like an association of persons under first amendment, but even that is severely different.

A voluntary association of persons has no penalty for exiting that association. There is nobody who could be said to be 'part' of a corporation, whether an ordinary employee, an executive, or a shareholder, who can simply leave the company at any point without immediate penalty.

If a shareholder doesn't like his corporation's corporate behavior, he does not have a lot of options. He can sell the shares, perhaps incurring a loss. He can use his shareholder votes, but that's a very difficult process with which to affect change, and most shareholders are at one remove-- their invested in investment funds which invest-- and so have no direct ability to discipline.

So if a corporation I own shares in takes actions I don't like, making an issues ad or whatever that I think is bullshit, they are claiming to act in my name, but they are not. Similarly, if a union votes by 60% to release a statement, 40% are opposed, and their speech is not part of the output, in the end.

It is rather obviously a complex issue, and not one that is addressable by treating corporations as if they are corporeal entities. Law that ignores reality is not going to lead to good things.

851 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:15:03am

re: #569 drcordell

How exactly did they "relinquish" control? Gaza is still completely fenced in, and segregated by dozens of Israeli military checkpoints. Honestly, if you lived there would you consider yourself free of Israeli control? I know I wouldn't.

I seem to remember in 2005, forcibly removing all the Jewish residents and turning over their high-tech greenhouse industry to the Palestinians. Did they use that gesture to build their nation? Hmm?

No, they use the abandoned settlements as terrorist training camps.

852 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:15:03am

re: #840 Mad Al-Jaffee

And Granddma Utz potato chips. Cooked in lard, sooo good, but sooo bad for you!

I would disagree. Fat, after all, is an essential nutrient - you cannot live without it. The same is true for salt. And carbohydrates. Eliminate any one of them from your diet, and you'll be dead in fairly short order, and in rather unpleasant ways.

The problem is quantity. And increasingly, with the mounting prevalence of heavily processed foods, density, which allows you to pack as many calories into a single handful of snack as an entire bowl might have contained a few years ago.

As excellent as Grandma's chips were, I bet they weren't served by the bucketload, at every meal, seven days a week throughout the year.

853 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:16:22am

re: #849 torrentprime

Oh, now you're not even trying. :)

Ok, I'll bite.
What kinds of things do we vote on in a constitutional republic? Things like slavery and the voting rights of women? Perhaps we should take a vote on whether or not to intern Muslims during the War on Terror. It's not like we have constitutional protections that override majority opinion or anything...

Oh. Yeah, i really did miss what you were getting at.

So you are saying that he would permit people to amend the constitution to ban gay marriage?

(want to make sure i'm following you correctly)

854 webevintage  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:16:27am

re: #36 iceweasel


Similar groups of “sovereign citizens” have been reported in several other states as well.

So if someone renounces their citizenship and goes "soverign" does that mean they have to stop using the services of the Federal and State gov't where they live.
Pay a special "sovereign citizen" fee to get their mail and for the fire department to put out a fire?

Or is it just about them not paying taxes anymore?

855 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:17:37am

re: #848 Aceofwhat?

No problem. I just really think that a lot of people are going to be surprised by how badly this is going to mess with political discourse at a time we can ill-afford it. However, if I'm wrong, I'll be happy as a clam.

856 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:18:04am

re: #41 RogueOne

I think we make a mistake when we try to classify crazy. People who walk into a Holocaust museum, a church, a school, or the pentagon and start shooting, or fly a plane into the CIA, all have really only one thing in common...they're crazy. Trying to fit them into some kind of political class conspiracy is a mistake.

The Last Psychiatrist has an excellent post about the Rage of the Average Joe, as well as some related material at Wrong About Obama II. Well worth a read.

857 webevintage  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:19:41am

re: #852 SixDegrees

I would disagree. Fat, after all, is an essential nutrient - you cannot live without it. The same is true for salt. And carbohydrates. Eliminate any one of them from your diet, and you'll be dead in fairly short order, and in rather unpleasant ways.


I think that in the end lard and real butter are better for you in moderation then hydrogenated vegetable oil.
Plus I found that my pie crusts were flakier and light when I used lard the past few months (little baking experiment I was doing).

858 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:19:56am

Pssst. New thread upstairs.

859 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:20:45am

re: #855 Obdicut

No problem. I just really think that a lot of people are going to be surprised by how badly this is going to mess with political discourse at a time we can ill-afford it. However, if I'm wrong, I'll be happy as a clam.

i completely understand. my fully honest perspective is that the consequences, even if you are proven 100% right, are simply not dire enough to justify the slow creep of legislative overreach into 1st Amendment rights.

so for me, the ends in this case, however noble, did not justify the abridgment, however slight, of the First Amdmt.

860 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:20:49am

re: #854 webevintage

So if someone renounces their citizenship and goes "soverign" does that mean they have to stop using the services of the Federal and State gov't where they live.
Pay a special "sovereign citizen" fee to get their mail and for the fire department to put out a fire?

Or is it just about them not paying taxes anymore?

As far as I can tell it's all about them using roads, refusing to pay taxes, calling the cops or FD when they need to, getting their mail, using emergency rooms---

And bitching when they're pulled over for DUI or hauled in for not paying taxes, and claiming 'diplomatic immunity'.
The apotheosis of "I got mine so FUCK YOU' political theory.

861 torrentprime  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:21:20am

re: #853 Aceofwhat?

Oh. Yeah, i really did miss what you were getting at.

So you are saying that he would permit people to amend the constitution to ban gay marriage?


Not even a little bit.

The way I read it, he seems to think that no such amendment to the constitution is necessary, that he would allow a majority vote to be held to remove or restrict the rights of the minority despite not only US Constitutional protections but DC legislative law that specifically forbids such discriminatory referendums.

862 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:23:03am

re: #859 Aceofwhat?

If I'm proven 100% right, I predict you'll change your mind. But that's just talk.

863 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:23:25am

re: #857 webevintage

I think that in the end lard and real butter are better for you in moderation then hydrogenated vegetable oil.
Plus I found that my pie crusts were flakier and light when I used lard the past few months (little baking experiment I was doing).

Healthwise, this does seem to be true.

Piewise, there is absolutely no doubt.

864 webevintage  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:24:47am

re: #860 iceweasel


And bitching when they're pulled over for DUI or hauled in for not paying taxes, and claiming 'diplomatic immunity'.

hahahahahaha
Can one claim "diplomatic immunity" if one does not have an embassy or Ambassador or any treaties with the US? I feel sorry for the police who pull one of these nuts over and has to deal with this shit.

865 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:25:37am

re: #862 Obdicut

If I'm proven 100% right, I predict you'll change your mind. But that's just talk.

well, that is kinda what we do here//

866 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:29:53am

re: #861 torrentprime

Not even a little bit.

The way I read it, he seems to think that no such amendment to the constitution is necessary, that he would allow a majority vote to be held to remove or restrict the rights of the minority despite not only US Constitutional protections but DC legislative law that specifically forbids such discriminatory referendums.

read it more closely. that's not what it says. it says the process so far has been fine and petitioners will not lose all future avenues in which to potentially challenge the act, so petitioners should go pound salt.

help me see what you saw-

867 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:36:02am

re: #796 Decatur Deb

Bailing out for lunch--our town just got a "Cheeburger, Cheeburger". BBL

Careful with the Pepsi. It looks like Philadelphia is trying to add a $0.02/oz tax on soft drinks. Attempting to make ground on a serious budget deficit. Probably to appear soon in a city/community near yours...

868 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:37:31am

re: #856 negativ

The Last Psychiatrist has an excellent post about the Rage of the Average Joe, as well as some related material at Wrong About Obama II. Well worth a read.

Psychiatrists are a half step above witch doctors. There, I said it.

/I appreciate the links and will happily check them out.

869 torrentprime  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:40:33am

re: #866 Aceofwhat?

read it more closely. that's not what it says. it says the process so far has been fine and petitioners will not lose all future avenues in which to potentially challenge the act, so petitioners should go pound salt.

help me see what you saw-


(emphasis added by torrent)
And what process is he referring to? The process by which the anti-marriage equality peeps can submit a minority-right-limiting referendum to the people, in this case after an Act has taken effect. Standing up for the right to strip minorities of their rights "in due course", so to speak, doesn't make that process, with all its "legal force", any less repulsive.

870 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:43:12am

re: #803 Cato the Elder

My presumption is that it's a riff on an old Saturday Night Live recurring skit about an immigrant run diner/burger place where all you could order was cheeseburgers, potato chips, and a Pepsi. The waiter/cashier calling out orders would say "cheeburger, cheeburger, chips, Pepsi". The other hook line was "No Coke, Pepsi" since the skits practically always involved someone trying to get a different drink or the burger done differently.

I can't do YouTube from here, but I'm sure someone can find you a clip.

871 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:43:24am

re: #869 torrentprime

(emphasis added by torrent)
And what process is he referring to? The process by which the anti-marriage equality peeps can submit a minority-right-limiting referendum to the people, in this case after an Act has taken effect. Standing up for the right to strip minorities of their rights "in due course", so to speak, doesn't make that process, with all its "legal force", any less repulsive.

no, he is referring to the process by which their ATTEMPT to hold the referendum was denied by the DC court, to which he appropriately (*insert liberal gasp here*) deferred. that is what i meant. the process of their referendum being denied was legal and he will not intervene.

see? it's all good. he deferred to the DC court.

872 torrentprime  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:48:30am

re: #871 Aceofwhat?

no, he is referring to the process by which their ATTEMPT to hold the referendum was denied by the DC court, to which he appropriately (*insert liberal gasp here*) deferred. that is what i meant. the process of their referendum being denied was legal and he will not intervene.

see? it's all good. he deferred to the DC court.

Result-based jurisprudence? Scalia wouldn't approve...

You've completely skipped the "legal force" part of the opinion, which was of course the entire post I made in the first place, which is what you wanted backup on. Right now, you've fallen back from "what's wrong with the opinion" to "well, you got what you wanted and we can ignore your post about the troubling dicta as long as we ignore the troubling dicta." Tidy, but not dispositive.

873 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:53:47am

re: #872 torrentprime

Result-based jurisprudence? Scalia wouldn't approve...

You've completely skipped the "legal force" part of the opinion, which was of course the entire post I made in the first place, which is what you wanted backup on. Right now, you've fallen back from "what's wrong with the opinion" to "well, you got what you wanted and we can ignore your post about the troubling dicta as long as we ignore the troubling dicta." Tidy, but not dispositive.

again, i am not following you correctly.

are you referring to the specific point where he says "their argument has some force"?

874 torrentprime  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:57:52am

re: #873 Aceofwhat?

again, i am not following you correctly.

are you referring to the specific point where he says "their argument has some force"?

lol / yes

875 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:59:18am

re: #688 drcordell

You're denying the influence of AIPAC on U.S. policy towards Israel? It's not a coincidence that the debate regarding the Israeli Palestinian conflict within Israel is much more heated than the debate in the U.S. AIPAC has done an extremely good job of effectively cultivating their relationships within Washington. The Walt/Mearsheimer paper was unfairly smeared as anti-Semitic. AIPAC is by definition a Jewish lobby. Identifying it as such should not be controversial.

You are really stepping into Teh Crazy now.

876 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:01:06am

re: #705 drcordell

At what point does it become tiresome having to send Israeli soldiers into Gaza to defend settlers who continue to expand their settlements?

Sderot is not a settlement. All the "settlers" were removed from Gaza in 2005.

You really covet the spacejesus downdings, don't you?

877 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:05:47am

re: #874 torrentprime

lol / yes

you're right to laugh...i'm slower than usual today for some reason/

Their specific argument is that there are two conflicting issues:
1.) Human rights-related provisions cannot be blocked by referendum.
2.) Legislation from #1 MAY violate the DC charter.

Roberts said that the argument for #2 "may have some force", which is judge for "may or may not prevail".

You are reading far, far too much into a clear attempt NOT to prejudge the question of potential future litigation, an answer was unnecessary to the resolution of the item at hand.

Good, solid work on Roberts' part.

Anything else i can help with!?!

878 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:06:41am

re: #876 Alouette

Sderot is not a settlement. All the "settlers" were removed from Gaza in 2005.

You really covet deserve the spacejesus downdings, don't you?

Heh. Wait 'till LVQ sees this brilliance on display;)

879 torrentprime  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:11:12am

re: #877 Aceofwhat?

you're right to laugh...i'm slower than usual today for some reason/

Their specific argument is that there are two conflicting issues:
1.) Human rights-related provisions cannot be blocked by referendum.
2.) Legislation from #1 MAY violate the DC charter.

Roberts said that the argument for #2 "may have some force", which is judge for "may or may not prevail".

You are reading far, far too much into a clear attempt NOT to prejudge the question of potential future litigation, an answer was unnecessary to the resolution of the item at hand.

Good, solid work on Roberts' part.

Anything else i can help with!?!

"may have some force" != "has some force"
He quite specifically revealed his opinion as to its validity.

880 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:17:34am

re: #879 torrentprime

"may have some force" != "has some force"
He quite specifically revealed his opinion as to its validity.

wrong.

"may have some force" = "may have some force".

you magically converted a conditional into a declarative from an author whose feces are smarter than you and I combined!!

"may have some force" = neither obviously stupid on its face nor obviously accurate, and it doesn't matter to the merits of the case so I as a judge have nothing more to say about it than that.

881 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:20:06am

re: #879 torrentprime

"may have some force" != "has some force"
He quite specifically revealed his opinion as to its validity.

and by the way, if it has force, it would be because the DC charter would overrule the DC bill in question.

So the DC legislators should get their heads out of their asses and either amend the charter or actually pass laws in accordance with their own damn charter. Rocket science, this ain't.

How is that discriminatory (IF it were so)?

882 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:21:38am

bbiab. if i may be so presumptive...love ya, Torrent! (per the endearing story you told about your friends before...keeping the tone light here)

883 ryannon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:34:16am

re: #718 shiplord kirel

Weird dreams

I got up very early this morning, around 4:30, and went back to sleep an hour later despite having drunk quite a bit of coffee. This combination, deep sleep in spite of caffeine, usually induces vivid dreams, and this time was no exception.
In the dream, a neighbor of mine had told me that some stray cats he had been feeding had all had kittens at the same time. He brought them over in a big cardboard box. There about 40 of them and they were as small as mice. I had never seen anything so cute and I was eager to adopt one. Then I woke up.

Maybe I'm not showing my soft side enough. I still haven't replaced my dog, Roswell the Atomic Poodle, who died last year at the age of 15. Maybe I should get a cat this time.


Maybe you should get about 40 of them this time?

884 torrentprime  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:34:54am

re: #881 Aceofwhat?

and by the way, if it has force, it would be because the DC charter would overrule the DC bill in question.


Emphasis added by torrent
That would be true if and only if the DC Charter allows minority rights to be removed or reduced by simple-majority referenda. Roberts thinks this has some force. What do you think?

So the DC legislators should get their heads out of their asses and either amend the charter or actually pass laws in accordance with their own damn charter. Rocket science, this ain't.

How is that discriminatory (IF it were so)?


Yes, they need to amend their charter to prevent minority-rights stripping; the US Constitution is silent on the matter (eyeroll). Rocket science, this isn't, I agree.

885 torrentprime  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:35:44am

re: #882 Aceofwhat?

bbiab. if i may be so presumptive...love ya, Torrent! (per the endearing story you told about your friends before...keeping the tone light here)

Thanks and back atcha. I am multitasking right now from a meeting; I ought to get back to it myself. LOL

886 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:45:42am

re: #884 torrentprime

That would be true if and only if the DC Charter allows minority rights to be removed or reduced by simple-majority referenda. Roberts thinks this has some force. What do you think?

Disagree. The DC Charter may prevent the legislation from exempting any legislation from the referendum mechanism.

Where does anyone come out and say "minority rights"?

The charter says that referendums are permitted. It MAY be the case that the legislature cannot override that permission through the bill in question.

Infer "minority rights trampling" from that, if you wish, but don't ascribe it to Roberts.

887 torrentprime  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:07:44pm

re: #886 Aceofwhat?

Disagree. The DC Charter may prevent the legislation from exempting any legislation from the referendum mechanism.

Where does anyone come out and say "minority rights"?


Roberts is careful to avoid admitting what would be impacted by his logic, I agree.

The core of this is that both by constitutional protection and by explicit actions of the DC Council, referenda should not be submitted to the people that will result in (illegal) discrimination. Roberts says as long as the "process" is followed, he's ok with such referenda. I am not. I don't think the US Constitution is either, but that's really the entire point of the Olson/Boies lawsuit, isn't it?

888 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:18:18pm

re: #887 torrentprime

I agree with you, Torrent. I think referendum that are not constitutionally checked are clearly going to result in majority rule.

889 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:35:43pm

re: #887 torrentprime

Roberts is careful to avoid admitting what would be impacted by his logic, I agree.

The core of this is that both by constitutional protection and by explicit actions of the DC Council, referenda should not be submitted to the people that will result in (illegal) discrimination. Roberts says as long as the "process" is followed, he's ok with such referenda. I am not. I don't think the US Constitution is either, but that's really the entire point of the Olson/Boies lawsuit, isn't it?

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but your problem is that you're moving too fast. Here's how this is supposed to work.

1. Charter says that the people are allowed to hold referenda.
2. Life goes on.
3. Legislature passes bill similar to DC examption.
4. Life goes on.
5. Someone challenges #3.
6. If challenge passes, #3 is struck down. If challenge does not, #3 does not.

Let's say #3 is struck down. (leave open in your mind, please, the possibility that it may not. it feels like you're presuming worst case scenario...that is your right, but it's not Roberts' job, in most scenarios.)

7. Life goes on.
8. Referenda defeats bill and in the process tramples 'human rights' in some form.
9. Lawsuit is filed to declare #8 unconstitutional.

Let the steps in the process play out - you're projecting (imho) unnecessary fear onto the early (and wholly legal/minimalistic) actions of judge Roberts, who said nothing more than that #5 above may happen in the future.

890 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:38:08pm

re: #888 Obdicut

I agree with you, Torrent. I think referendum that are not constitutionally checked are clearly going to result in majority rule.

Well...the majority does, sorta. It's what we do here//

If i may presume to infer "...result in majority rule which unconstitutionally tramples basic rights of the minority" from what you said, then fine.

Wait until such a thing occurs, and we'll watch the challenge with anticipation.

You're prejudging a thing without any evidence that it is certain to come true.

891 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:40:09pm

re: #887 torrentprime

let me be clear: he is not saying he is ok with such a referenda.

He is speaking about the next step, from which you infer a judgment about the next three steps.

SCOTUS justices are precise enough that they're the LAST people you're allowed to "read into". Take the language at its face, as it is meant to be.

892 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:43:08pm

re: #891 Aceofwhat?

referendUM. sheesh. i do not feel well.

893 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:59:04pm

re: #890 Aceofwhat?

You're prejudging a thing without any evidence that it is certain to come true.

It already has come true. I live in California. Prop 8.


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