SPLC: Rage on the Right

US News • Views: 6,062

The Southern Poverty Law Center has a report on the hatred and extremism that has reared its head on the right since the election of Barack Obama: Rage on the Right.

And it’s especially relevant after the shootings at the Pentagon yesterday, apparently perpetrated by a virulently anti-government libertarian who drew his inspiration from the right wing kookosphere.

The radical right caught fire last year, as broad-based populist anger at political, demographic and economic changes in America ignited an explosion of new extremist groups and activism across the nation.

Hate groups stayed at record levels — almost 1,000 — despite the total collapse of the second largest neo-Nazi group in America. Furious anti-immigrant vigilante groups soared by nearly 80%, adding some 136 new groups during 2009. And, most remarkably of all, so-called “Patriot” groups — militias and other organizations that see the federal government as part of a plot to impose “one-world government” on liberty-loving Americans — came roaring back after years out of the limelight.

The anger seething across the American political landscape — over racial changes in the population, soaring public debt and the terrible economy, the bailouts of bankers and other elites, and an array of initiatives by the relatively liberal Obama Administration that are seen as “socialist” or even “fascist” — goes beyond the radical right. The “tea parties” and similar groups that have sprung up in recent months cannot fairly be considered extremist groups, but they are shot through with rich veins of radical ideas, conspiracy theories and racism.

“We are in the midst of one of the most significant right-wing populist rebellions in United States history,” Chip Berlet, a veteran analyst of the American radical right, wrote earlier this year. “We see around us a series of overlapping social and political movements populated by people [who are] angry, resentful, and full of anxiety. They are raging against the machinery of the federal bureaucracy and liberal government programs and policies including health care, reform of immigration and labor laws, abortion, and gay marriage.”

A quick look around the right wing blogs finds them in full-throated denial that John Patrick Bedell had anything at all to do with them, which is, of course, totally expected.

The latest talking point making the rounds of the wingnut echo chamber is that since Bedell was a 9/11 Truther, that “proves” he was a “left winger.” Perhaps those who promote this diversionary tactic can explain why people like Alex Jones and the John Birch Society, both of whom promote 9/11 Trutherism, are welcomed on the modern right wing with open arms.

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835 comments
1 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:17:13am

The SPLC keeps our country on the right track.

2 sffilk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:20:26am

Thank goodness for Morris Dees and his people.

3 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:21:50am

I just really wish these people would turn their energies to constructive ends. It's not like we lack problems at every level that they could be attempting to solve.

4 webevintage  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:21:54am

Michelle Malkin's head will explode in 4, 3, 2, 1.....

5 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:22:16am
The latest talking point making the rounds of the wingnut echo chamber is that since Bedell was a 9/11 Truther, that “proves” he is a “left winger.” Perhaps those who promote this diversionary tactic can explain why people like Alex Jones and the John Birch Society, both of whom promote 9/11 Trutherism, are welcomed on the modern right wing with open arms.

We've been pointing out the dangers of associating with these people for a while here on LGF and received nothing but hate and scorn from conservative blogs. These conspiracy theories are dangerous because it attracts people who are politically extreme and mentally unstable. This isn't simply limited to 9-11 truth. Conspiracy theories about secret progressive plots to destroy the country, poison the water supply, establish a tyrannical dictatorship, indoctrinate children, etc are just as bad. The Thruthers are only the tip of the iceberg.

6 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:22:38am

In the case of Joe Stack, the IRS plane bomber, the connection to the right is less clear. From his manifesto, Stack comes across as anti-government but not easily classifiable as either right or left.

Bedell's recorded statements, however, could easily have come from any tea party demonstration over the past year.

7 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:23:16am

re: #4 webevintage

Michelle Malkin's head will explode in 4, 3, 2, 1...

She's linking to zombie's dishonest article at PJM claiming that since he hated Bush and was a truther then he must be a lefty.

8 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:24:11am

re: #6 Charles

Bedell's recorded statements, however, could easily have come from any tea party demonstration over the past year.


His recordings were mostly from 2006. He was ahead of his time.

9 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:24:17am

re: #6 Charles

In the case of Joe Stack, the IRS plane bomber, the connection to the right is less clear. From his manifesto, stack comes across as anti-government but not easily classifiable as either right or left.

Bedell's recorded statements, however, could easily have come from any tea party demonstration over the past year.

The thing about Joe Stack though, is the elected Republicans who said (paraphrase) "well what he did was wrong, but, you know I kinda understand it".

10 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:24:40am

And seriously for how long can pundits talk of revolution and race bait and spread the most awful and hateful racial smears before the more extreme act on it?

The GOP (and the spokespeole of it, Rush, Beck, Palin, Paul, and the kookosphere) knew full well it was playing with the worst threads of American history and psychology with the tacts it took.

Now we get to reap the whirlwind.

Watch as all those folks blame everyone but themselves - if it even occurs to them to notice that this is a bad thing.

11 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:25:39am

re: #1 prairiefire

The SPLC keeps our country on the right track.

That is so true. If I had gone into law rather than science, they are exactly the type of outfit I would have wanted to work for.

12 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:26:58am

re: #8 Killgore Trout

His recordings were mostly from 2006. He was ahead of his time.

Or just back in 1966, or 1856 and on the wrong side.

13 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:27:12am

re: #7 Killgore Trout

She's linking to zombie's dishonest article at PJM claiming that since he hated Bush and was a truther then he must be a lefty.

There is plenty of Bush-hatred at tea party demonstrations.

re: #5 Killgore Trout

We've been pointing out the dangers of associating with these people for a while here on LGF and received nothing but hate and scorn from conservative blogs. These conspiracy theories are dangerous because it attracts people who are politically extreme and mentally unstable. This isn't simply limited to 9-11 truth. Conspiracy theories about secret progressive plots to destroy the country, poison the water supply, establish a tyrannical dictatorship, indoctrinate children, etc are just as bad. The Thruthers are only the tip of the iceberg.

Exactly right. Instead of confronting the kooks and expelling them from the mainstream, the right wing blogs have either welcomed them, or done their best to ignore, deflect, and divert attention away from them.

14 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:27:16am

re: #11 LudwigVanQuixote

That is so true. If I had gone into law rather than science, they are exactly the type of outfit I would have wanted to work for.

Same here. SPLC first, ACLU second.

15 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:27:31am

Reposted from last night's thread - an explanation of where some of this kookery comes from.

Alas, it's not really a satire:

I believe I detect the specific syndrome engendered in an unprepared member of misera plebs who undertakes a close deconstructionist reading of the dollar bill.

Note the Latin. Used on purpose so only the Pope (aka The Scarlet Woman, aka The Great Beast (το μεγα φηριον), aka The Whore of Babylon) and I can read it. Unless you take the correspondence course.

"Novus Ordo Saeclorum" = flat-out New World Order! What, do you need me to spell it out for you?

"Annuit Coeptis" = "may he [Old Scratch] look with favor on what we have begun"! (The destruction of Christianity and morals.)

It's all there on our currency! The fingerprints of the Illuminati! The Masonic devilry! And we let our children pay for their Hannah Montana toys with this money.

Don't even get me started on The Eye (of Sauron!) in the second picture.

Ron Paul is right! Edit the Fed! (That's what he said, no?)

I weep for our lost innocence.

16 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:28:10am

re: #9 Stanley Sea

The thing about Joe Stack though, is the elected Republicans who said (paraphrase) "well what he did was wrong, but, you know I kinda understand it".

That seriously is the big story about Stack, imo.

17 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:29:32am

re: #14 iceweasel

Same here. SPLC first, ACLU second.

Yeah, I love how the ACLU whose mission is to see that the constitution is fairly applied to all groups is such a whipping boy of the right...

It is just a manifestation of what has been apparent for years. The right loves the constitution when they define it as applying to their own interests and ignores it otherwise.

18 webevintage  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:29:48am

re: #16 iceweasel

That seriously is the big story about Stack, imo.


But is anyone paying attention?
I have yet to see Brown or Kyl's (?) comments on the national news.

19 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:30:44am

re: #15 Cato the Elder

You are a good agent Cato you get a bagel for keeping the true plans of Remulak hidden by talking of all of the front groups these fools believe in :)

20 EastSider  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:31:19am

re: #9 Stanley Sea

The thing about Joe Stack though, is the elected Republicans who said (paraphrase) "well what he did was wrong, but, you know I kinda understand it".

re: #10 LudwigVanQuixote

And seriously for how long can pundits talk of revolution and race bait and spread the most awful and hateful racial smears before the more extreme act on it?

I think, if this trend continues, you could see a prominent enough figure just come out and openly push for rejection of the US government as a legitimate operation. And that person may gain a legitimate following and cause some serious damage.

On its face that sounds absolutely absurd, but people have been flirting with that idea for a year.

21 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:31:48am

re: #15 Cato the Elder

"Didja ever look at a dollar bill, man? There's some spooky shit goin' on there. And it's green too."

-Slater, Dazed and Confused

22 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:32:36am

re: #19 LudwigVanQuixote

You are a good agent Cato you get a bagel for keeping the true plans of Remulak hidden by talking of all of the front groups these fools believe in :)

Hi Ludwig!

Did you see this little joke from last night? I wrote it just for you!

23 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:34:32am

I saw parts of his facebook page. I don't know any liberals who like the Ludwig Von Mises Institute yet it will be said that he was liberal because he was a truther and obviously didn't like Bush. What needs to be said that there were many on the far right who resented Bush for not being right wing enough.

24 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:34:42am

re: #20 EastSider

I think, if this trend continues, you could see a prominent enough figure just come out and openly push for rejection of the US government as a legitimate operation. And that person may gain a legitimate following and cause some serious damage.

On its face that sounds absolutely absurd, but people have been flirting with that idea for a year.

It is not absurd to say that since it is already happening. The folks in SC and Texas make many allusions to it. All that talk of 10th Amendment from Perry is a great example.

I actually can not discount a second civil war on the basis of a combination of religious grounds, race baiting and an old economic system trying to stay entrenched.

Hmmm... just like the first one.

25 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:35:47am

re: #11 LudwigVanQuixote

That is so true. If I had gone into law rather than science, they are exactly the type of outfit I would have wanted to work for.

They're a wonderful group. I used to get old issues of their magazine, the Intelligence Report. Eye opener to the extremist movements in this country.

26 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:37:22am

re: #24 LudwigVanQuixote

It is not absurd to say that since it is already happening. The folks in SC and Texas make many allusions to it. All that talk of 10th Amendment from Perry is a great example.

Ah, speaking of which...
Indiana’s ‘sovereign citizens’ renounce their U.S. citizenship, claim to secede from the Union.

Indiana RTV6 reports that “an increasing number of Indiana residents” are taking radical right-wing “tenther” beliefs to their logical extreme, declaring themselves “sovereign citizens” exempt from federal law and from paying taxes. These individuals claim their homes are embassies and have started “using identification cards that show them as diplomats.” The state reports that about 10 people a month have been asking for an official seal which supposedly exempts them from paying taxes. Some “sovereign citizens” have even refused to use drivers licenses or plates. When challenged by police, they show a homemade ID and claim that “no one can delay, detain or arrest them without facing damages of $2 million

More at link.

27 [deleted]  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:38:06am
28 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:38:28am

re: #25 HappyWarrior

They're a wonderful group. I used to get old issues of their magazine, the Intelligence Report. Eye opener to the extremist movements in this country.

Available online now-- this piece is, IIRC from their Spring 2010 Intelligence report. Quarterly pub now.

29 jaunte  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:38:35am

Rick Perry is a soulless panderer.

30 lostlakehiker  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:38:38am

Democrats style as immigration "reform" any measure to admit more people who will take low-paying service jobs. This crowds the job market in that sector and drives down the wages of those who already earn the least. Meanwhile, they oppose the very immigrants we most need: H1B Visa applicants and the like, whose skills would help us compete in the wider world. These immigrants might put downward pressure on the high wages of their own sector, but perhaps not---if our products and technology win a race, we earn so much that there's plenty to go around.

For Democrats, this upside down policy makes a certain sense: even if it's bad for the economy, and bad for their constituents, the immigrants they want will vote Democrat, and the immigrants they don't want would not have been so reliable.

Our own low-skill workers find themselves utterly betrayed by the party whose rhetoric takes their side. Anger about immigration policy isn't right-wing hate, it's a sober response to a drunkenly irresponsible policy.

31 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:38:46am

These people make my head hurt.

32 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:38:50am

re: #26 iceweasel

More at link.

Family Guy is not meant to be interpreted literally!!

33 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:39:32am

Jones opposed Clinton before he opposed Bush before he opposed BHO. I bet he opposed G.H.W. Bush, too.

34 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:40:36am

re: #14 iceweasel

Same here. SPLC first, ACLU second.

I'm right there with you on the ACLU, the SPLC is a different matter entirely.

35 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:41:09am

I posted this below, but I wanted to spam repost it here, as it seems relevant.

The Rage of the Average Joe

"Was he a right wing nut? I heard he was a socialist nut?"

It's natural to look at this from your own perspective ("he has a point about the rich" etc) but this isn't a manifesto, it's a suicide note. The information of suicide notes are not reliable.

And it's a suicide note, not a homicide note, because it is about his life/death. Everyone else doesn't matter.

The reason why he's so hard to pin down as right wing or left wing (or patsy) is that it's not important to him, writing the note. The purpose of the note isn't to convey information, it is to convey mood, and the seemingly random and contradictory positions he takes on issues is all in an attempt to win you, the reader, over to his side. He knows for sure he is angry, he knows for sure he feels wronged, but he can't logically and realistically link the real world events to his level of anger. So he confuses you with words while blanketing you with mood. You have no idea what he's talking about, but you definitely sympathize with the frustration. Boom-- he got you.

and

Wrong About Obama II

In case you have had a short life or memory, Obama isn't the most hated modern President. In terms of depth of hatred, Reagan beats them all, even Nixon. Openly considered a monster, evil, he was going to bring us to nuclear war on purpose just to kill minorities and then he'd forget all about it because he had taken a nap. The band Genesis made a video with him doing pretty much that, and it won awards. Imagine if a pop band did that with Obama.

However, the hatred was confined to Reagan, not to everyone who liked Reagan. No one got cut off in traffic and thought, "look at this jerk, I'll bet he voted for Reagan." But now...

This is probably because of the way we're now trained to discuss politics: me vs. you. We are encouraged to make the focus be the argument, not the content. Setting yourself in opposition to someone who appears to have a definable character is a shortcut to your own branding, which is why you're having the argument.

36 EastSider  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:42:58am

re: #24 LudwigVanQuixote

It is not absurd to say that since it is already happening. The folks in SC and Texas make many allusions to it. All that talk of 10th Amendment from Perry is a great example.

I actually can not discount a second civil war on the basis of a combination of religious grounds, race baiting and an old economic system trying to stay entrenched.

Hmmm... just like the first one.

Its not inconceivable. Which is scary as all hell.

What's almost scarier is to think that the glue currently holding us together is less a shared identity/value system or belief in the constitution but really the concept of mutually assured destruction.

It wouldn't be north/south. It would be what you're seeing in Iraq. There would be no territories to capture or armies to defeat. It would just be violence, terrorism and extremism executed by and against an alarmingly well armed citizenry claiming the lives of millions. Annnnd oh by the way--how would it affect our own military? We saw what happened w/ Russian nukes when the USSR fell apart, can we really say that we (and who is we in that case anyway) could secure our own arsenals from internal extremists? A US civil war would prove the failure of democracy and be nothing short of the transition to a new world order that these idiots are scared of in the first place.

And THAT hellscape is what's keeping people from getting really crazy now. But reading through some of materials in the nutosphere, its almost as if they would want all of that to come true, if only to prove that they were right about Obama.

37 jaunte  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:43:32am

re: #33 MandyManners

Jones opposed Clinton before he opposed Bush before he opposed BHO. I bet he opposed G.H.W. Bush, too.

He did, in fact. He wants to expose "america's most elite and elusive secret society": The Order of Skull and Bones!

38 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:44:20am

re: #22 Cato the Elder

Hi Ludwig!

Did you see this little joke from last night? I wrote it just for you!

Love it! That was brilliant.

I left last night because I was starting to get annoyed at certain things and It was sharply made clear to me that I was starting to get sucked in (in not a good way).

By the way.. ok...

I will tell you the truth about me and Mandlebrot.

I have told you many times that my real identity is as a Zionist Lord of Remulak.

Yes I am a legitimate scientist by your standards, but since we have good science education on Remulak, and we are so much more advanced than you, well... let's put it like this, a 5 year old on Remulak that has not mastered what you call vector calculus is put into the remedial track.

But I digress.

Our purpose is simple.

We are going to let you totally destroy your environment. We do have the technology to repair it. Right now we are actively and truthfully educating you about the science of yyour actions. We know you will not believe it in time or act in time. However, the fact that your species almost murdered your homeworld will be undeniable to you when we step in and "save" you.

It will make you love us as your rulers and not fear us.

We really do not need pesky rebellions.

Why do we want to conquer you - well that is what Zionism is of course. What your redneck factions don't get is the power of it or that it is an intergalactic enterprise.

We also want your hottest women.

The price for our fixing up your planet will be that we get Natalie Portman and you get to keep Rosie O'Donnell.

Mandlebrot is a senior Lord of Remulak. HE is very charming and the math he has taught your species only adds to the galactic we told you so, when we take over.

39 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:44:35am

re: #37 jaunte

He did, in fact. He wants to expose "america's most elite and elusive secret society": The Order of Skull and Bones!

Clinton wasn't a member but, his wife is a shape-shifting, reptilian alien.

40 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:44:49am

re: #33 MandyManners

Jones opposed Clinton before he opposed Bush before he opposed BHO. I bet he opposed G.H.W. Bush, too.

Who are you talking about, Mandy?
And how does it relate to this story? Inquiring minds.
I've been thinking that you've spamming threads with discredited, debunked bullshit about Van Jones.
I would like to apologise to you if I'm wrong, so please let me know.

41 jaunte  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:45:12am

re: #39 MandyManners

Icke!

42 badger1970  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:45:20am

re: #35 negativ

"The '80s: Where too many people did coke and voted for Reagan"- MST3k reference.

Crazy is crazy. Violent crazy is scary.

43 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:45:34am

re: #40 iceweasel

Van Jones? Or Alex Jones? I think Mandy was referring to Alex Jones.

44 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:45:58am

re: #38 LudwigVanQuixote

Holy thunder! Idioma was right!

45 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:46:10am

The SPLC, of course, is relentlessly demonized by the right wing.

Wonder why that is?

46 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:46:18am

How much of it is outrage against liberals and how much of it is against a Black president? I hate to play the race card because I want to think we have advanced beyond it even as we know racism still exists, obviously, but I keep going back to it. SPL even said "despite the total collapse of neo-Nazi groups" (who hate Blacks as well as Jews), the incidents have skyrocketed.

Obama also does not want to be known as The Black President. Well there may be some of that! But he wants his policies to speak for him. Unfortunately, there is little policy bashing and more personal bashing.

47 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:46:27am

re: #43 lawhawk

Van Jones? Or Alex Jones? I think Mandy was referring to Alex Jones.

Oh that clarifies the issue. Thanks.
Apologies, Mandy.

48 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:47:02am

re: #41 jaunte

Icke!

The father of the Shape-Shifting, Reptilian Alien Revelations!

49 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:48:33am

re: #45 Charles

The SPLC, of course, is relentlessly demonized by the right wing.

Wonder why that is?

Well, in part, it's because their very name implies that there's poverty in America, that there's something wrong with that, and that it's not just the poor slackers' fault, but systemic.

50 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:48:35am

re: #38 LudwigVanQuixote

if I clean the jakes, will you take me with you when you pass through the Horsehead Nebula? always wanted to see it up close.

51 The Left  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:49:30am

re: #45 Charles

The SPLC, of course, is relentlessly demonized by the right wing.

Wonder why that is?

Because they're better at individual fundrasing than the Heritage Foundation?/

52 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:49:48am

re: #26 iceweasel

More at link.


Just to stand up for my state.

Reading the link within the link:
[Link: www.theindychannel.com...]

It doesn't say anywhere they want to withdraw from the US, just the taxes.


Indiana authorities call such proclamations both illegitimate and illegal. About 10 people every month ask the state to put a seal on a document so that they can claim freedom from taxes.
...............
Another so-called sovereign citizen, Brad Henry, said he loves America, but is fed up with government in general.

"I don't have any rights you don't. You just don't have the guts to stand up for yours," Henry said, when questioned about the authenticity of documents.

Henry said he doesn't mind paying sales taxes, but won't pay property taxes. He asked Delaware County officials to exempt him from annual bills because he considers his house to be an embassy. The county denied the request.

It's a tax scheme and a equates to a grand total of 10 people a month=120 people a year=.000019% of the Indiana population. It's also the same scheme the asshat who flew his plane into the IRS was involved with.

Before the flood of downdings, all I'm suggesting is we don't exaggerate the problem and start hyperventilating that Hoosiers want to secede from the Union.

53 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:50:01am

re: #51 iceweasel

Because they're better at individual fundrasing than the Heritage Foundation?/

That's one of the memes, for sure.

54 sattv4u2  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:50:02am

re: #50 Aceofwhat?

if I clean the jakes, will you take me with you when you pass through the Horsehead Nebula? always wanted to see it up close.

Wasn't there a movie producer in The Godfather that saw one up close?!?!

55 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:50:41am

re: #45 Charles

The SPLC, of course, is relentlessly demonized by the right wing.

Wonder why that is?

And so is the ACLU (which is advertised on your Google stream hehe).

56 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:51:08am

re: #52 RogueOne

It's a tax scheme and a equates to a grand total of 10 people a month=120 people a year=.000019% of the Indiana population. It's also the same scheme the asshat who flew his plane into the IRS was involved with.

Before the flood of downdings, all I'm suggesting is we don't exaggerate the problem and start hyperventilating that Hoosiers want to secede from the Union.

well...Vermont really is electing folks who want to secede. So i think they're outdoing you up there...

57 pharmmajor  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:51:32am

re: #6 Charles

Perhaps those who promote this diversionary tactic can explain why people like Alex Jones and the John Birch Society, both of whom promote 9/11 Trutherism, are welcomed on the modern right wing with open arms.

I don't promote the nonsense from the right-wingers, but I will offer my own take on the issue: insanity knows no political bounadries.

58 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:52:44am

ZOMG! It's the ZOG, I tells ye!

59 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:52:56am

re: #49 Cato the Elder

Well, in part, it's because their very name implies that there's poverty in America, that there's something wrong with that, and that it's not just the poor slackers' fault, but systemic.

Not sure I agree. They see it as it IS the slackers' fault. They're slackers, sucking off the government teat. Mostly Black and Hispanic and vote Democrat.

60 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:53:28am

re: #59 marjoriemoon

Not sure I agree. They see it as it IS the slackers' fault. They're slackers, sucking off the government teat. Mostly Black and Hispanic and vote Democrat.

That's what I said.

61 jaunte  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:53:36am

re: #57 pharmmajor

I don't promote the nonsense from the right-wingers, but I will offer my own take on the issue: insanity knows no political bounadries.

"If falsehood, like truth, had but one face, we would be more on equal terms. For we would consider the contrary of what the liar said to be certain. But the opposite of truth has a hundred thousand faces and an infinite field."
-- Michel Eyquem De Montaigne

62 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:53:52am

re: #57 pharmmajor

I don't promote the nonsense from the right-wingers, but I will offer my own take on the issue: insanity knows no political bounadries.

Or maybe, the politicians have no boundaries against insanity, if the votes are there.

63 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:53:59am

re: #44 Cato the Elder

Holy thunder! Idioma was right!

Have a bagel.

As I have written many time in the past sometimes thing go awry when people misuse probes.

It is not that gang probe technology is faulty, it is that some of the more junior overlord get a little carried away. Some even get addicted. Agent Idioma was one such case. The deep resentment of Zionism that individual feels comes from the fact the they were cut off from more probes until they evened out.

As I wrote earlier, something similar happened to agent beck when he got out of his cage and probed his own ear at maximum setting. The results were that he continuously hears in his head the apocalypse protocols with a combination of loud Mexican radio.

His mind is simply not up to the strain.

However as we wrote earlier, he serves the greater purposes of Remulak.

By whipping your nation into a state of lunacy, he hastens your self destruction. Therefore, when we come in on the brink of your destruction and save you, not only will you love us, but your hottest women will willingly come with us.

64 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:54:07am

re: #60 Cato the Elder

That's what I said.

Oh then...

never mind!

65 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:54:31am

re: #57 pharmmajor

I don't promote the nonsense from the right-wingers, but I will offer my own take on the issue: insanity knows no political bounadries.

But when it's picked up and promoted by a major news network and expounded on the floor of the House of Representatives, we have a somewhat different problem.

66 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:56:33am

re: #46 marjoriemoon

How much of it is outrage against liberals and how much of it is against a Black president? I hate to play the race card because I want to think we have advanced beyond it even as we know racism still exists, obviously, but I keep going back to it. SPL even said "despite the total collapse of neo-Nazi groups" (who hate Blacks as well as Jews), the incidents have skyrocketed.

Obama also does not want to be known as The Black President. Well there may be some of that! But he wants his policies to speak for him. Unfortunately, there is little policy bashing and more personal bashing.

Seriously now.

The answer to that is in all the endless fear mongering about him being black and delegitimatizing him as not a real American.

Right? The big scary black man is coming to destroy your hold on America.

The racists assume that no "real" American president could possibly be black. So therefore the "real" America must be lost.

It really is that simple alas.

67 sattv4u2  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:58:53am

[Link: www.boston.com...]
Representative William D. Delahunt will announce today that he will not seek reelection to Congress, ending a nearly 40-year career in elected office and giving Republicans hope of capturing the district, which stretches from Cape Cod to the South Shore.

Another one!

I can't recall when so many incumbent reps (from both sides of the aisle, btw) have decided at the same not to run for re-election

68 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:59:00am

re: #66 LudwigVanQuixote

Seriously now.

The answer to that is in all the endless fear mongering about him being black and delegitimatizing him as not a real American.

Right? The big scary black man is coming to destroy your hold on America.

The racists assume that no "real" American president could possibly be black. So therefore the "real" America must be lost.

It really is that simple alas.

Ya, ya, ya... I'm with you Oh Remulak Overlord.

69 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:59:22am

re: #66 LudwigVanQuixote

Seriously now.

The answer to that is in all the endless fear mongering about him being black and delegitimatizing him as not a real American.

Right? The big scary black man is coming to destroy your hold on America.

The racists assume that no "real" American president could possibly be black. So therefore the "real" America must be lost.

It really is that simple alas.

The demographic shift in America is as real as AGW, and far, far scarier to people who see their old automatic WASP privileges threatened.

"Wah! I don't want to press '2' for Spanish!"

Well then, don't, you monolingual moron.

70 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 10:59:26am

May I propose theme music for the revolution?

For my side, that is-- whatever that is.

71 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:00:05am

re: #69 Cato the Elder

Which button is it to get the message and options in Latin?

72 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:00:45am

re: #71 oaktree

Which button is it to get the message and options in Latin?

That is a secret known only to me, 33rd-degree Masons, and the Pope.

74 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:03:35am

re: #72 Cato the Elder

That is a secret known only to me, 33rd-degree Masons, and the Pope.

Wait a minute - are you telling me your a Master & the Pope?

Your Holiness, I hadn't considered the possibility, but I admit to the genius of it.

75 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:03:40am

re: #69 Cato the Elder

The demographic shift in America is as real as AGW, and far, far scarier to people who see their old automatic WASP privileges threatened.

"Wah! I don't want to press '2' for Spanish!"

Well then, don't, you monolingual moron.

That is one of the most ridiculous complaints of the nativists. Why in the hell should there be a choice for Spanish!!1!

Well, bring it up with AT&T or whomever decided that they didn't want to lose a dime of business.

76 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:04:15am
77 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:04:37am

Wow. Patterico isn't even going along with the "not political" line on Bedell. He's actually trying to promote the bizarre fantasy that Bedell was a left winger.

The right wing blogs are really losing it.

78 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:04:45am

re: #73 MandyManners

Do 35 per cent of Democrats still believe Pres. Bush knew about 9-11 before it happened?

re: #76 Stanley Sea

2007.

It appears that Dem craziness has an expiration date.

79 Buck  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:04:55am

Would you say that in the early years after 9/11, Trutherism was welcomed on the modern left wing with open arms?

80 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:05:19am

re: #73 MandyManners

Do 35 per cent of Democrats still believe Pres. Bush knew about 9-11 before it happened?

Well he was briefed on the fact that AQ was determined strike within the US soon and discarded it.

81 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:05:37am

re: #76 Stanley Sea

2007.

Fortunately, all that craziness was purged just in time to elect you know who.

82 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:05:45am

Hot Air commenters immediately started theorizing that the shooter was a Muslim.

83 abbyadams  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:05:54am

re: #75 Stanley Sea

Agreed. It's also why the "War on Christmas" is so unbelievable. Let's see, be inclusive with "Happy Holidays," or make non-Christians feel less than comfortable in your establishment and have them take their business elsewhere. Hmmm. Quite a choice.

84 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:06:01am

re: #79 Buck

Would you say that in the early years after 9/11, Trutherism was welcomed on the modern left wing with open arms?

No.

85 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:06:21am

re: #78 Guanxi88

It appears that Dem craziness has an expiration date.

It probably does.

Since we're in this lovely internet age, I just ask for current info, not old articles (even from LGF) for the oh noes! Things do change.

86 jaunte  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:06:33am

re: #73 MandyManners

35% seems high; even "Overall, 22% of all voters believe the President knew about the attacks in advance" seems quite high.

87 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:07:10am

re: #84 Charles

No.

Seconded.

Buck, you should stick to the dead threads, where fewer people will notice what a tool you are.

88 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:07:30am

re: #79 Buck

No. I never saw open acceptance from the Democratic establishment for trutherism, at all.

The closest I saw were desires for investigations into the intelligence oversights.

I suppose it depends who mean by the 'modern left-wing'. Are anarcho-captialists 'left-wing'?

I think most 9/11 truthers are anti-government primarily, and the 'right wing' is very clearly and obviously (if somewhat bafflingly) coopting and endorsing a lot of anti-government positions.

89 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:07:41am

re: #85 Stanley Sea

It probably does.

Since we're in this lovely internet age, I just ask for current info, not old articles (even from LGF) for the oh noes! Things do change.

Well, there's no current info of any type. I suspect that any polling on the subject must necessarily reflect or serve some bias of the pollsters.

90 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:08:13am

re: #85 Stanley Sea

It probably does.

Since we're in this lovely internet age, I just ask for current info, not old articles (even from LGF) for the oh noes! Things do change.

Everyone was kinda crazy for a couple years after 9/11.

91 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:08:44am

re: #88 Obdicut

No. I never saw open acceptance from the Democratic establishment for trutherism, at all.

The closest I saw were desires for investigations into the intelligence oversights.

I suppose it depends who mean by the 'modern left-wing'. Are anarcho-captialists 'left-wing'?

I think most 9/11 truthers are anti-government primarily, and the 'right wing' is very clearly and obviously (if somewhat bafflingly) coopting and endorsing a lot of anti-government positions.

We saw something like this with the Clintons and OKC.. The part outta power tends to attract those who aren't exactly cooking on the same planet with the rest of us.

92 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:08:45am

re: #90 Conservative Moonbat

Everyone was kinda crazy for a couple years after 9/11.

I know I was. It turned me into a toad.

But I got better.

93 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:08:48am

I just got back from the store with the ice cream. Store was all out of pareve vanilla ice cream, so I got butter pecan.

Apple pie looks great!

94 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:08:54am

re: #77 Charles

Wow. Patterico isn't even going along with the "not political" line on Bedell. He's actually trying to promote the bizarre fantasy that Bedell was a left winger.

The right wing blogs are really losing it.

He was left wing libertarian which puts him to the right of liberals and the left of conservatives,

95 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:09:00am

re: #69 Cato the Elder

The demographic shift in America is as real as AGW, and far, far scarier to people who see their old automatic WASP privileges threatened.

"Wah! I don't want to press '2' for Spanish!"

Well then, don't, you monolingual moron.

OMG, I have minority friends that got on a Facebook rant about this. I wanted to slap them silly.

Pressing one is such a hardship... What about going from auto voice to auto voice, 5 menus deep and then getting disconnected. Please.

96 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:09:16am

re: #90 Conservative Moonbat

Everyone was kinda crazy for a couple years after 9/11.

Yep.

97 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:09:28am

Alternate theme music:

Tom Waits singing a restrained version of The Earth Died Screaming, and explaining how Buzz Aldrin found all of Waits's fireworks on the moon.

98 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:09:39am

re: #78 Guanxi88

It appears that Dem craziness has an expiration date.

And taking another look at that Rasmussen poll question, I see that I was taken in. I apologize for promoting it as a valid poll. It was crap. The question was whether the Bush administration knew about the 9/11 attacks in advance, and that's a deliberately sloppy way to phrase it, designed to get a large number of positive responses. But the question can very obviously be interpreted in many ways -- and lots of those ways do not include Trutherism.

The Bush administration DID receive many warnings that Al Qaeda was about to attack.

99 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:10:33am

re: #33 MandyManners

Jones opposed Clinton before he opposed Bush before he opposed BHO. I bet he opposed G.H.W. Bush, too.

This is correct. Jones always assures his flock (and I do mean flock) that whoever is in charge is always One Of THEM. If Ron Paul became President tomorrow, Alex Jones would immediately have 19 new rants explaining how Ron Paul is an evil New World Order Bildeburger Trilateralist Freemason Illuminatus.

100 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:10:59am

re: #93 Alouette

I just got back from the store with the ice cream. Store was all out of pareve vanilla ice cream, so I got butter pecan.

Apple pie looks great!

Mmm pie.

And thanks for your comments to Doc Cordell on the last thread.

101 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:11:10am

re: #88 Obdicut

No. I never saw open acceptance from the Democratic establishment for trutherism, at all.

The closest I saw were desires for investigations into the intelligence oversights.

I suppose it depends who mean by the 'modern left-wing'. Are anarcho-captialists 'left-wing'?

I think most 9/11 truthers are anti-government primarily, and the 'right wing' is very clearly and obviously (if somewhat bafflingly) coopting and endorsing a lot of anti-government positions.

Look - i admit the crazy on the right is way out of proportion, compared to the left, on items like those the SPLC cites.

That is different than saying these things aren't true.

102 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:11:16am

re: #95 marjoriemoon

OMG, I have minority friends that got on a Facebook rant about this. I wanted to slap them silly.

Pressing one is such a hardship... What about going from auto voice to auto voice, 5 menus deep and then getting disconnected. Please.

When frustrated at not being able to get a customer service rep, I sometimes press 2 with the hope I'll get there quicker. Works sometimes, sometimes not. I try my damndest to understand too.

(my spell check button isn't working)

103 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:11:53am

re: #94 RogueOne

He was left wing libertarian which puts him to the right of liberals and the left of conservatives,

That's complete nonsense.

104 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:12:11am

I think it is laudable for any person or organization to distance itself from Bedell and his actions.

105 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:12:43am

re: #98 Charles

I always found, in my limited experience, that the largest contingent of truthers were Ron Paul supporters. Anecdotal evidence only. But I think many people have had the same experience, and here's a contemporary (2007 ) example:

[Link: www.lorien1973.com...]

106 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:12:48am

re: #98 Charles

i just linked to the same poll, and now reading your post, see that i misread it just like you.

i apologize. please either let my post sit and rot or remove it as you see fit.

107 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:13:13am

re: #94 RogueOne

He was left wing libertarian which puts him to the right of liberals and the left of conservatives,

A left libertarian can have some non-authoritarian socialist leanings depending on what definition you're using. Kinda anarchist-light.

108 Gus  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:13:21am

Regarding John Patrick Bedell. Here's some quotes of his I found over at TPM:

Communist and socialist governments that abolished or disregarded private property...created poverty, repression and murder on a truly enormous scale...Even in the United States, however, there has been a continual erosion of protection of private property justified by the belief that government is an efficient instrument for the positive direction of society.

Governments lack the profit and loss incentives that individuals and private organizations must use...

When governments are able to confiscate the resources of their citizens to fund schemes that need only be justified by lies and deception enormous disasters can result.

When the government can control how private property is used...and especially when the government controls the monetary system that is used to exchange private property, the government has the mechanisms and the motivation to control individuals to the smallest detail.

Government control of the schools that shape minds is pervasive in today's world...The imperative to defend the freedom of conscience must lead us to eliminate the role of the government in education and leave parents and communities free to raise their children as they see fit.

Link here.

109 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:13:58am

re: #93 Alouette

I just got back from the store with the ice cream. Store was all out of pareve vanilla ice cream, so I got butter pecan.

Apple pie looks great!

We should be honest with ourselves here... If ice cream is parve, it has no cream in it :(

One of the hardest things for me as a BT was not keeping kosher but the notion that the kosher option was always just as good.

That is why I eat my dessert before my meal sometimes :)

110 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:14:09am

re: #97 Obdicut

Alternate theme music:

[Video]

Tom Waits singing a restrained version of The Earth Died Screaming, and explaining how Buzz Aldrin found all of Waits's fireworks on the moon.

I can't watch videos at work, but Waits will always get an upding from me.

111 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:14:39am

re: #101 Aceofwhat?

See Charles's 98. The wording of the question meant that anyone who believed that that memo was a warning of the 9/11 attacks would have said "Yes".

I assume the socialist workers party and the anti-government left wing also endorsed the theory. But in terms of the politics of today, I think the largest contingent of truthers are found in the Paulians, who are back in vogue.

112 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:15:29am

re: #98 Charles

And taking another look at that Rasmussen poll question, I see that I was taken in. I apologize for promoting it as a valid poll. It was crap. The question was whether the Bush administration knew about the 9/11 attacks in advance, and that's a deliberately sloppy way to phrase it, designed to get a large number of positive responses. But the question can very obviously be interpreted in many ways -- and lots of those ways do not include Trutherism.

The Bush administration DID receive many warnings that Al Qaeda was about to attack.

Wow.

113 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:15:31am

re: #108 Gus 802

Regarding John Patrick Bedell. Here's some quotes of his I found over at TPM:

Communist and socialist governments that abolished or disregarded private property...created poverty, repression and murder on a truly enormous scale...Even in the United States, however, there has been a continual erosion of protection of private property justified by the belief that government is an efficient instrument for the positive direction of society.

Governments lack the profit and loss incentives that individuals and private organizations must use...

When governments are able to confiscate the resources of their citizens to fund schemes that need only be justified by lies and deception enormous disasters can result.

When the government can control how private property is used...and especially when the government controls the monetary system that is used to exchange private property, the government has the mechanisms and the motivation to control individuals to the smallest detail.

Government control of the schools that shape minds is pervasive in today's world...The imperative to defend the freedom of conscience must lead us to eliminate the role of the government in education and leave parents and communities free to raise their children as they see fit.

Link here.

And that completely settles the question. Bedell was absolutely a radical right winger.

114 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:16:26am

re: #110 Mad Al-Jaffee

I'd give it a lesson when I get home. It's a very unique version of it, more contemplative than most-- and the story at the end his hilarious.

115 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:17:12am

re: #73 MandyManners

Do 35 per cent of Democrats still believe Pres. Bush knew about 9-11 before it happened?

The question is faulty. Of course, Bush knew at some point. The more appropriate question is "Was Bush directly involved in the 9/11 attacks?" I can guarantee you will not get those same percentages.

116 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:17:26am

re: #114 Obdicut

I'd give it a lesson when I get home. It's a very unique version of it, more contemplative than most-- and the story at the end his hilarious.

I love that they used that song in 12 Monkeys.
If I have time, I'll check it out tonight.

117 Buck  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:17:32am

re: #98 Charles

And taking another look at that Rasmussen poll question, I see that I was taken in. I apologize for promoting it as a valid poll. It was crap. The question was whether the Bush administration knew about the 9/11 attacks in advance, and that's a deliberately sloppy way to phrase it, designed to get a large number of positive responses. But the question can very obviously be interpreted in many ways -- and lots of those way do not include Trutherism.

The Bush administration DID receive many warnings that Al Qaeda was about to attack.

How would you answer this question:

Did the Obama administration know about the Xmas Hijacking attack in advance?

118 jaunte  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:17:46am

re: #112 Spare O'Lake

Not that any of the warnings were actionable intelligence.

119 pharmmajor  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:18:27am

re: #94 RogueOne

He was left wing libertarian which puts him to the right of liberals and the left of conservatives,

Dude, please, I'm sick of having libertarians lumped in with these whackjobs on the far right and left. It's just serving to further demonize (what seems to me) the only rational party left in America. We don't know what Bedell's political affiliation was, and even when we do find out, it doesn't mean everyone else who shares his affiliation is a violent nut.

120 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:18:28am

re: #112 Spare O'Lake

Wow.

I know, facts can be surprising.

121 Gus  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:18:39am

re: #113 Charles

And that completely settles the question. Bedell was absolutely a radical right winger.

He'd fit in perfectly with the John Birch Society. Definitely a Paulian and a follower of Lew Rockwell.

122 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:18:43am

re: #113 Charles

And that completely settles the question. Bedell was absolutely a radical right winger.

And how long until the usual false cries that the left wing was just as bad so therefore this is somehow ok?

123 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:18:51am

re: #7 Killgore Trout

She's linking to zombie's dishonest article at PJM claiming that since he hated Bush and was a truther then he must be a lefty.

I noticed Zombie's bias from the beginning. I will say this though, had it not been for a photo essay from 2006, I may not have become interested in activism. Heck, it wasn't obvious that there was another side of folk who didn't agree with the Israel haters.

124 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:19:00am

re: #118 jaunte

Not that any of the warnings were actionable intelligence.

Downding for misuse of the word "actionable".

125 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:19:07am

re: #102 Stanley Sea

When frustrated at not being able to get a customer service rep, I sometimes press 2 with the hope I'll get there quicker. Works sometimes, sometimes not. I try my damndest to understand too.

(my spell check button isn't working)

Zero used to always get you to the operator, but they've got wise to that, too :( Now I get "invalid selection."

I had a nightmare recently over a mortgage payment that was not applied properly and came up as a late payment. I spent 3 days on the phone, but couldn't resolve it. I had to find a branch and go the bank. That's Chase, btw. If you have a choice in banking, never, never, NEVER go with Chase. They are evil.

126 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:19:57am

All these questions about foreknowledge are of course set-ups.

Any intelligence apparatus runs in the background, like some sorta anti-viral software. Individual blips and such (attacks, for purposes of this case) can no more be blamed on the POTUS at the time than can virus and haxx0R stuff be blamed on whoever was using the computer.

127 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:20:11am

And more evidence that most poll questions are poorly worded and attempting to draw simplistic (and other erroneous) responses to complex situations and issues.

Pollsters should have five-year-olds on staff to review their poll questions. Groucho understood that!

128 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:20:19am

re: #115 marjoriemoon

Or "Did Bush Allow the 9/11 attacks to happen?" Which I think is even more apropos.

For the record, I think that Bush deemphasized counterterrorism before 9/11, but in no way can be accused of letting the attacks happen. I do think we could have prevented them, but there is no scenario in which I believe Bush would have allowed them to happen. I think his focus was simply not on terrorism before 9/11.

129 jaunte  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:20:51am

re: #124 Cato the Elder

How so?

130 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:21:11am

re: #117 Buck

How would you answer this question:

Did the Obama administration know about the Xmas Hijacking attack in advance?

I believe he's admitted that at the very least intelligence agencies did.

131 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:21:15am

Please note -- saying that the Bush administration received warnings that Al Qaeda was planning an attack is NOT the same as saying they "allowed the attack to happen," or that they planned the attack themselves.

Truthers believe either one of those two things. People who are aware of facts know that the 9/11 attacks were telegraphed by Al Qaeda LONG in advance of September 11.

132 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:21:23am

re: #128 Obdicut

And to clarify: That lack of focus on terrorism does not mean Bush was 'to blame'. The evil assholes who attacked us are to blame.

133 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:21:38am

Bedell was straight out of the Lew Rockwell/Justin Raimondo rightwing 3rd positionist crowd.

He is probably closer to Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul than any lefty.

He is also really big into that "Austrian School of Economics" as he was a fan of the rightwing Ludwig Von Mises theories.

134 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:22:02am

re: #122 LudwigVanQuixote

And how long until the usual false cries that the left wing was just as bad so therefore this is somehow ok?

Already happened LVQ!!!

135 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:22:04am

re: #124 Cato the Elder

Downding for misuse of the word "actionable".

"Generally more applicable in suits at law."

Cato the Elder, QC

136 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:22:56am

(Do I hear folding chairs being grabbed?)

137 jaunte  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:24:06am

re: #136 Guanxi88

I was opening a can of cashews.

138 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:24:09am

re: #128 Obdicut

Or "Did Bush Allow the 9/11 attacks to happen?" Which I think is even more apropos.

For the record, I think that Bush deemphasized counterterrorism before 9/11, but in no way can be accused of letting the attacks happen. I do think we could have prevented them, but there is no scenario in which I believe Bush would have allowed them to happen. I think his focus was simply not on terrorism before 9/11.

Well not really. Whose was? Al Queda had been attacking us since the Afghan/Russian wars, for some 20 years. We got pretty wise about it by the time Clinton was in power and he chased bin Laden all over the place. So did Bush after the fact, although he could have focused more on Afghanistan.

I don't think we should be relying on hindsight and there's far too many people doing that.

139 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:24:51am

re: #137 jaunte

I was opening a can of cashews.

That makes a lousy projectile.

140 jaunte  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:25:21am

re: #139 Guanxi88

*spits cashew at Guanxi88*

141 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:25:50am

re: #139 Guanxi88

Load them down a smoothbore and you get instant cannister rounds!

142 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:26:07am

re: #140 jaunte

*spits cashew at Guanxi88*

*bounces harmlessly. Guanxi88 wipes the projectile clean and feeds it to his officemate, snickering all the while*

143 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:27:24am

re: #141 oaktree

Load them down a smoothbore and you get instant cannister rounds!

I seem to recall reading about a Britisher at Waterloo - an officer, of course - whose desperation led him to lad cannisters of snuff into his artillery pieces for ammo.

144 JCW  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:28:08am

The identification of right-wing political violence has been identified, but it is a symptom of a disorder within our polity. The question is “why is it increasing?”

I attribute it to an increase in Injustice, which is being implemented by government encroachment upon civil society.

When people choose to work through government, we essentially ask, “How can we use force to solve this problem?” which is perfectly correct when it comes to the use of retaliatory force used to protect individual rights.

When people choose to work through civil society, we essentially ask, “How can we through free association solve this problem or seize that opportunity?” which is the correct method for most social cooperation.

Using health care “reform” as an example, the actual question being asked is “How can we force dissenters into a shared risk pool so that we can cover revenue and resource short falls in existing government health care schemes?” This exemplifies the injustice that delegitimized a government by distracting it from its legitimate functions, such as administering an objective court system for resolving disputes, such a medical malpractice claims.

The legitimacy of a government is essential for maintaining its legitimate monopoly on force. That legitimacy requires government to be exclusively focused upon the protection of individual rights.

145 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:28:14am

re: #138 marjoriemoon

I can't exactly parse what you're saying, but to re-restate: I don't even think Bush's lack of focus on terrorism was a 'mistake'. In hindsight, it was. Some of the resources the FBI was put towards, for example, were definitely not the best use of their time-- but attaching that to Bush is silly.

Whatever I believe about President Bush, I firmly believe that had he felt that the threat from terrorists was as great as it turned out to be, he would have done everything he could to prevent it.

So I agree with you on the hindsight thing, and I have no way of knowing if the lack of focus on terrorism can in any way honestly be called a mistake.

146 Gus  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:28:21am

BBL

147 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:28:29am

(Yeah, everybody's grabbed folding chairs, long-neck budweisers, pool cues, and other impromptu implements of mayhem. You can hear a pin drop.)

148 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:29:19am

re: #144 JCW

The identification of right-wing political violence has been identified, but it is a symptom of a disorder within our polity. The question is “why is it increasing?”

I attribute it to an increase in Injustice, which is being implemented by government encroachment upon civil society.

To me, this is a very repellent endorsement of the actions of those using political violence. You truly believe that they're fighting back against injustice?

I really hope I've misunderstood you.

149 sffilk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:29:53am

re: #17 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah, I love how the ACLU whose mission is to see that the constitution is fairly applied to all groups is such a whipping boy of the right...

It is just a manifestation of what has been apparent for years. The right loves the constitution when they define it as applying to their own interests and ignores it otherwise.

You know, I wish people would explain to these "pundits" that the ACLU was created originally to protect Jewish rights that were being denied them here in the U.S. But NO!!!!, it's so much easier to spread lies and stuff like that.

Now granted, there are times the ACLU has done stuff I disagree with, but you have it correctly about the Constitution being applied fairly to all groups.

150 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:30:15am

re: #125 marjoriemoon

Zero used to always get you to the operator, but they've got wise to that, too :( Now I get "invalid selection."

I had a nightmare recently over a mortgage payment that was not applied properly and came up as a late payment. I spent 3 days on the phone, but couldn't resolve it. I had to find a branch and go the bank. That's Chase, btw. If you have a choice in banking, never, never, NEVER go with Chase. They are evil.

You have hit three of my biggest gripes.

There used to be a notion in American business that to succeed meant making the best product and that service was provided with a smile - even with an obnoxious customer.

The somewhere the paradigm got shifted to we will squeeze as much short term profit as we can and give the minimum service possible in order to cut costs.

Large companies can do this because of lack of competition. It is always amusing to me how the people who argue Adam Smith as the word of G-d the most readily seem to miss that his model only applies where companies have incentive to do better and not worse. - and then go and support ever larger corporations.

My personal gripe (most recently) comes from having to deal with high speed internet. I have two choices.

Both of those choices know full well that the pain in the ass of switching over to the other's crappy service is just enough that I am unlikely to switch, having dealt with days on the phone to get simple things fixed with both of them.

In this case, a few days ago, I lost service because the techs disconnected me when connecting someone else.

Now I knew this was the case because everything went down at the same time the tech was leaving, my bills are paid, and none of my actual equipment was damaged.

After about two hours on the phone, (they always are experiencing "greater than normal call volume" ever notice that?) I got through to a human and explained the problem. They said they could send someone in three days to fix it. I said look your guy just unplugged me, he is certainly still in the area since he was here two hours ago and it is fix as simply as putting a plug in a socket.

They explained as if I were a slightly brain damaged five year old how this was as soon as they could fix things and that it could well have been my modem failing and that an "expert" should look at it.

Uhuh. Well there is no point in arguing. Switching to the crappy service of the other would take two weeks to get installed, not three days.

Of course I was correct about the fix BTW.

151 pharmmajor  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:30:29am

re: #122 LudwigVanQuixote

And how long until the usual false cries that the left wing was just as bad so therefore this is somehow ok?

The far left and far right ARE equally extreme, but violence like this from either side is never justified. I think you're the one guilty of making false cries, LVQ.

152 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:30:59am

re: #144 JCW

The identification of right-wing political violence has been identified, but it is a symptom of a disorder within our polity. The question is “why is it increasing?”

I attribute it to an increase in Injustice, which is being implemented by government encroachment upon civil society.

When people choose to work through government, we essentially ask, “How can we use force to solve this problem?” which is perfectly correct when it comes to the use of retaliatory force used to protect individual rights.

When people choose to work through civil society, we essentially ask, “How can we through free association solve this problem or seize that opportunity?” which is the correct method for most social cooperation.

Using health care “reform” as an example, the actual question being asked is “How can we force dissenters into a shared risk pool so that we can cover revenue and resource short falls in existing government health care schemes?” This exemplifies the injustice that delegitimized a government by distracting it from its legitimate functions, such as administering an objective court system for resolving disputes, such a medical malpractice claims.

The legitimacy of a government is essential for maintaining its legitimate monopoly on force. That legitimacy requires government to be exclusively focused upon the protection of individual rights.

You're saying Obama wanting to insure 31 million uninsured Americans is a legitimate reason for some crazy assed motherfucker to go shoot up the Pentagon?

153 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:31:49am

re: #144 JCW

The question is “why is it increasing?”

I attribute it to an increase in Injustice, which is being implemented by government encroachment upon civil society.

Which all began on January 20, 2009, I suppose? Sorry if I say that's a crock of baloney.

154 Buck  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:32:08am

re: #84 Charles

No.

OK....all of the truther diaries (that had to be deleted) on DKos and Obamas own site were being posted by the right?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

155 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:32:30am

re: #144 JCW

I disagree. The State has the monopoly on the political use of violence. Period. To think otherwise is to advocate civil war, the most terrible of all conflicts.

156 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:32:42am

re: #125 marjoriemoon

Zero used to always get you to the operator, but they've got wise to that, too :( Now I get "invalid selection."

I had a nightmare recently over a mortgage payment that was not applied properly and came up as a late payment. I spent 3 days on the phone, but couldn't resolve it. I had to find a branch and go the bank. That's Chase, btw. If you have a choice in banking, never, never, NEVER go with Chase. They are evil.

As long as it's standard banking practice to immediately debit any purchases while holding back deposits as long as possible, so as to collect as many usurious $39 "overdraft fees" on $4.19 debits as they can, I'd say that applies to all of 'em.

Ezra Pound was a freakin' anti-Semite, but he was right about usury.

CANTO LXV

With Usura

With usura hath no man a house of good stone
each block cut smooth and well fitting
that design might cover their face,
with usura
hath no man a painted paradise on his church wall
harpes et luthes
or where virgin receiveth message
and halo projects from incision,
with usura
seeth no man Gonzaga his heirs and his concubines
no picture is made to endure nor to live with
but it is made to sell and to sell quickly
with usura, sin against nature,
is thy bread ever more of stale rags
is thy bread dry as paper,
with no mountain wheat, no strong flour
with usura the line grows thick
with usura is no clear demarcation
and no man can find site for his dwelling.
Stone cutter is kept from his stone
weaver is kept from his loom
WITH USURA
wool comes not to market
sheep bringeth no gain with usura
Usura is a murrain, usura
blunteth the needle in the maid's hand
and stoppeth the spinner's cunning. Pietro Lombardo
came not by usura
Duccio came not by usura
nor Pier della Francesca; Zuan Bellin' not by usura
nor was 'La Calunnia' painted.
Came not by usura Angelico; came not Ambrogio Praedis,
Came no church of cut stone signed: Adamo me fecit.
Not by usura St Trophime
Not by usura Saint Hilaire,
Usura rusteth the chisel
It rusteth the craft and the craftsman
It gnaweth the thread in the loom
None learneth to weave gold in her pattern;
Azure hath a canker by usura; cramoisi is unbroidered
Emerald findeth no Memling
Usura slayeth the child in the womb
It stayeth the young man's courting
It hath brought palsey to bed, lyeth
between the young bride and her bridegroom
CONTRA NATURAM
They have brought whores for Eleusis
Corpses are set to banquet
at behest of usura.

His mistake was in thinking that reasonable interest and usury are the same thing, and that it was somehow a Jewish invention.

157 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:32:57am

re: #120 Charles

I know, facts can be surprising.

I can see why you were "taken in" because I too was "taken in", and I'm still "taken in". Can we not agree that at the time of the poll almost every American knew damn well what happened on 9-11? Is there one single shred of evidence that Pres. Bush actually knew in advance that there were multiple airline hijackings planned by terrorists for 9-11?
The question was not vague IMO.
It was crystal clear.

158 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:33:12am

re: #154 Buck

OK...all of the truther diaries (that had to be deleted) on DKos and Obamas own site were being posted by the right?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Apparently, somewhere along there, you missed the fact that Daily Kos rejected and banned the Truthers, in no uncertain terms.

159 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:33:30am

re: #147 Guanxi88

(Yeah, everybody's grabbed folding chairs, long-neck budweisers, pool cues, and other impromptu implements of mayhem. You can hear a pin drop.)

indeed...

160 sffilk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:34:32am

re: #63 LudwigVanQuixote

Have a bagel.

I'd like a chocolate chip bagel, please.

161 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:34:44am

re: #154 Buck

So, uh, they got deleted, huh?

How is that 'welcoming them with open arms'?

162 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:34:48am

re: #143 Guanxi88

The "Sharpe's" series (books by Bernard Cornwell) had a set-up in one book (and also done in the TV adaption) where the hero was in a pickle where nearly all his powder was wet and a French assault on the fort he was defending was imminent...

{spoiler ho!}

Given a hint that there was a cellar full of oyster shells he had them burned over fires that night and then dumped the resulting quicklime on the French assault on the gate the next morning. Not the same as snuff, but you'd possibly get some effect blowing fine tobacco into their eyes!

163 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:35:05am

re: #150 LudwigVanQuixote

what is your preferred solution to the problem you outline?

164 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:35:51am

re: #145 Obdicut

I can't exactly parse what you're saying, but to re-restate: I don't even think Bush's lack of focus on terrorism was a 'mistake'. In hindsight, it was. Some of the resources the FBI was put towards, for example, were definitely not the best use of their time-- but attaching that to Bush is silly.

Whatever I believe about President Bush, I firmly believe that had he felt that the threat from terrorists was as great as it turned out to be, he would have done everything he could to prevent it.

So I agree with you on the hindsight thing, and I have no way of knowing if the lack of focus on terrorism can in any way honestly be called a mistake.

Ack... I type too fast to try to keep up and step over myself. My apologies.

Put it this way. President Bush nor his administration had nothing to do with attacking this country on 9/11. Period. End of Story. I say that as a lifelong Democrat liberal. What the FBI/CIA knew exactly, I don't know. 9/11 was the turning point for our intelligence. Maybe it shouldn't have been, given that we had been tracking Al Queda and their attacks on our interests for 20 years, but we never believed it would happen here.

You can't say shouda, woulda, coulda before 9/11 about any president. Least, I don't think it's fair.

165 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:35:55am

re: #162 oaktree

The "Sharpe's" series (books by Bernard Cornwell) had a set-up in one book (and also done in the TV adaption) where the hero was in a pickle where nearly all his powder was wet and a French assault on the fort he was defending was imminent...

{spoiler ho!}

Given a hint that there was a cellar full of oyster shells he had them burned over fires that night and then dumped the resulting quicklime on the French assault on the gate the next morning. Not the same as snuff, but you'd possibly get some effect blowing fine tobacco into their eyes!

DAMN! Quicklime! Nasty stuff.

No, he used the snuff cannisters because they were HEAVY glass.

166 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:36:02am

re: #160 sffilk

I'd like a chocolate chip bagel, please.

Ew. Those are nasty.

I'll have a poppy-seed bagel.

167 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:36:03am

re: #154 Buck

OK...all of the truther diaries (that had to be deleted) on DKos and Obamas own site were being posted by the right?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I think many of those people eventually flocked to Ron Paul. There were some pro-Paul diaries on DKos at first too. They got laughed out of town pretty fast.

168 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:36:05am

re: #157 Spare O'Lake

Is there one single shred of evidence that Pres. Bush actually knew in advance that there were multiple airline hijackings planned by terrorists for 9-11?

And that was not the question asked. The questions was "whether George W. Bush knew about the 9/11 terrorist attacks in advance."

And if you don't see how that can easily be interpreted in ways that have nothing to do with Trutherism, then yep -- you're being taken in.

169 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:36:11am

re: #103 Charles

That's complete nonsense.

I disagree. There are varying stripes of libertarians just like there are varying types of Dems/Repubs. This guy was obviously of the libertarian mindset but his anti-military views put him squarely on the left side of our aisle.

170 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:37:22am

re: #169 RogueOne

I disagree. There are varying stripes of libertarians just like there are varying types of Dems/Repubs. This guy was obviously of the libertarian mindset but his anti-military views put him squarely on the left side of our aisle.

Utter nonsense. Did you completely miss Gus 802's comment above? Bedell was absolutely on the right wing side, politically.

171 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:37:22am
172 William of Orange  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:37:24am

Sean Hannity gets a spoonfull of editing medicine from Stephen Colbert. Hilarious!!!

173 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:37:28am

re: #119 pharmmajor

Dude, please, I'm sick of having libertarians lumped in with these whackjobs on the far right and left. It's just serving to further demonize (what seems to me) the only rational party left in America. We don't know what Bedell's political affiliation was, and even when we do find out, it doesn't mean everyone else who shares his affiliation is a violent nut.

I'm confused, are you arguing all libertarians are the same? That isn't something I believe at all.

174 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:37:37am

re: #164 marjoriemoon

Absolutely agreed.

175 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:37:52am

re: #165 Guanxi88

Ouch! I might have to look that reference up. Have a friend who is into Napoleonic (especially computer games) and he'd have some idea of where it might be found.

176 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:39:35am

re: #151 pharmmajor

The far left and far right ARE equally extreme, but violence like this from either side is never justified. I think you're the one guilty of making false cries, LVQ.

You should look up Rommel's quote about the attributes of different officers.

The moonbats are stupid and lazy.

The wingnuts are stupid and industrious.

The wingnuts are much more dangerous as a whole.

177 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:39:43am

"Favoring a smaller government" is not the same thing as "anti government". And no, it's not that one is further along the same continuum. They are different things altogether.

178 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:40:30am

re: #131 Charles

Please note -- saying that the Bush administration received warnings that Al Qaeda was planning an attack is NOT the same as saying they "allowed the attack to happen," or that they planned the attack themselves.

Truthers believe either one of those two things. People who are aware of facts know that the 9/11 attacks were telegraphed by Al Qaeda LONG in advance of September 11.

Truthers self-label as LIHOP (Let It Happen On Purpose) or MIHOP (Made It Happen On Purpose).

LIHOPs believe the Administration, et.al knew specifically that the attacks were going to happen, and deliberately chose to do nothing for a variety of nefarious reasons.

MIHOPs believe the government planned, coordinated, and executed it all, and the official explanation is a Big Lie.

One might expect that the MIHOPs are the fringe minority of the two camps, but one would be wrong. No hypothesis is too crazy for the MIHOP crowd, including Judy Woods' completely serious claim that the towers were zapped by an orbiting energy weapon platform developed by the Star Wars program, all utterly secret.

If I thought any poll accurately reflected that 35% of ANYONE took that the slightest bit seriously, I would be ... disturbed.

179 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:40:37am

re: #168 Charles

And that was not the question asked. The questions was "whether George W. Bush knew about the 9/11 terrorist attacks in advance."

And if you don't see how that can easily be interpreted in ways that have nothing to do with Trutherism, then yep -- you're being taken in.

I respectfully and completely disagree with you.

180 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:41:17am

re: #169 RogueOne

As I said earlier, left-libertarians are socialists.

181 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:42:03am

re: #180 Conservative Moonbat

As I said earlier, left-libertarians are socialists.

What is your idea of Libertarian that could allow it to be classified as socialist?

182 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:42:40am

The crazy guys are ALWAYS aligned with your enemies.

That's because the crazy guys are the enemies of everybody; if more folk'd recognize that fact, we might be able to get past these pointless pissing matches.

183 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:42:55am

re: #150 LudwigVanQuixote

hehe I don't mean to laugh at your misfortune. It's beyond infuriating. We have our DSL with AT&T and the service is pretty good. It's packaged into our phone service so the cost is reasonable too.

Chase put me into collections because they didn't apply my payment properly and called me daily to tell me about it, but never fixed it.

There is no more customer service anywhere. Not the banks, not Sears, not Best Buy, no one. You are at the whim of corporations who have your money, property and service contracts. And sending these services overseas is part of the problem.

Chase Manhattan has bought up so many smaller banks, they simply don't care. They give a shit about my few $1000s in the bank? No way. And yet they can ruin me. I want to throw something if I think about it too long.

184 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:43:01am

re: #160 sffilk

I'd like a chocolate chip bagel, please.

Mebst!

Real bagels are not toroidal muffins! If you want chocolate and dough have a babka!

Real bagels are kneaded by stout men and women with forearms like pop-eye. They come in plain (or with toppings like sesame seeds, poppy seeds, onion etc...) rye, pumpernick or black and white.

They are crispy on the outside and chewy and moist on the inside. The are at once, dense yet airy.

Speak not of your goyshe muffins to me!

////

Well half sarc, we can still be friends if you like even blueberry bagels :)

185 jaunte  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:43:11am

re: #178 negativ

I would bet that 35% represented those who agreed that George W. Bush was aware before 9/11 that terrorists might try to attack the U.S. using aircraft.

186 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:44:13am

re: #184 LudwigVanQuixote

"torodial muffins"

That phrase alone should forever dispel any doubts anyone might have about whether you've got a background in physics.

187 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:44:34am

re: #183 marjoriemoon

hehe I don't mean to laugh at your misfortune. It's beyond infuriating. We have our DSL with AT&T and the service is pretty good. It's packaged into our phone service so the cost is reasonable too.

Chase put me into collections because they didn't apply my payment properly and called me daily to tell me about it, but never fixed it.

There is no more customer service anywhere. Not the banks, not Sears, not Best Buy, no one. You are at the whim of corporations who have your money, property and service contracts. And sending these services overseas is part of the problem.

Chase Manhattan has bought up so many smaller banks, they simply don't care. They give a shit about my few $1000s in the bank? No way. And yet they can ruin me. I want to throw something if I think about it too long.

It is all the same phenomena, if there is no competition or regulation, they do not need to care.

And guess who argues the strongest about supporting the mega corps and reducing regulation?

188 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:44:35am

re: #179 Spare O'Lake

I respectfully and completely disagree with you.

I would have said he knew about them in advance and I'm in no way a truther. He was briefed that AQ was determined to strike inside the US. That counts.

189 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:44:35am

re: #182 Guanxi88

The crazy guys are ALWAYS aligned with your enemies.

That's because the crazy guys are the enemies of everybody; if more folk'd recognize that fact, we might be able to get past these pointless pissing matches.

It's not "pointless" at all to note that the extremism is getting worse and worse on the right wing. Bedell is just the latest example.

190 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:44:42am

re: #177 cliffster

Though, I would note that blindly wanting a smaller government is pretty much anti-government. In the end, the real argument is about what is the proper province of the government; everyone agrees we need one, we just disagree on certain areas that it should or should not have involvement in. People who are reflexively against 'big government' in cases like, say, vaccinations and safe water standards, are not really the same as someone who wants to end government programs that can be shown to be totally ineffective.

191 Buck  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:44:53am

re: #158 Charles

Apparently, somewhere along there, you missed the fact that Daily Kos rejected and banned the Truthers, in no uncertain terms.

and yet so many of those links are still there. AND, I know they did.... but isn't the fact that so many there posted the nonsense in the first place?

I think I could find a positive response HERE (let alone DKos) for the question "Did George Bush and his supporters engineer stealing the 2000 election?"

What about "Do you think George Bush and his cabinet lied about WMD's in Iraq in order to go to war for Israel"?

Or "Do you think George Bush and his cabinet did illegal wire taps"?

Maybe the Poll should have been worded: “Do you really think George Bush and his cabinet engineered the murder of thousands and have kept the secret for eight years?”

I wonder what the numbers would have shown back then.

192 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:45:05am

re: #180 Conservative Moonbat

As I said earlier, left-libertarians are socialists.

Stop digging. We are talking about a guy who hated everything about the government with an unbridled passion. Not a socialist.

193 zora  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:45:16am

re: #172 William of Orange

hilarious.

194 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:45:23am

re: #131 Charles

Please note -- saying that the Bush administration received warnings that Al Qaeda was planning an attack is NOT the same as saying they "allowed the attack to happen," or that they planned the attack themselves.

Truthers believe either one of those two things. People who are aware of facts know that the 9/11 attacks were telegraphed by Al Qaeda LONG in advance of September 11.

Sure. Just not the specifics. But even in the weeks and days prior to 9/11, events like the detonation of the ancient Buddhist statues and the murder of opposition leader Ahmad Massoud were obvious and deliberate provocations, meant to draw the US into a conflict that could be labeled as a 'holy war' and exploited as such by aQ. In fact, I've often wondered if the plan wasn't to draw foreign troops into Afghanistan with the bombing of the statues, with 9/11 scheduled to appear as "retaliation" for such an event. There was certainly a huge, very negative worldwide outcry over this event, although it never coalesced into any real action being taken.

195 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:45:33am

re: #189 Charles

It's not "pointless" at all to note that the extremism is getting worse and worse on the right wing. Bedell is just the latest example.

Righto! Just my little contribution to the effort to try to get past "Republican tea partying truthers are killing folk; how dare anyone vote for Scott Brown?"

196 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:45:33am

re: #181 cliffster

What is your idea of Libertarian that could allow it to be classified as socialist?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

197 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:45:45am

re: #166 Alouette

Ew. Those are nasty.

I'll have a poppy-seed bagel.

I like sesame seed, onion and garlic.

198 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:46:28am

re: #182 Guanxi88

I'm sorry, but that's a rather useless comment. There are crazy people who are endorsed by their own side, even in the face of their craziness. Even on FreeRepublic you'll find people admitting that Orly Taitz is crazy but still supporting her actions.

199 MadJadBad  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:47:06am

re: #45 Charles

If the excerpt you posted is a typical example, I'm guessing it may be the slant embedded in their prose.
"ignited an explosion of new extremist groups and activism across the nation."
"Furious anti-immigrant vigilante groups soared"
"so-called “Patriot”"
"came roaring back"
"anger seething across the American political landscape"
"They are raging against the machinery"

There is so much hyperbole there that it makes it sound more like a commentary than a serious report.

200 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:47:20am

re: #198 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but that's a rather useless comment. There are crazy people who are endorsed by their own side, even in the face of their craziness. Even on FreeRepublic you'll find people admitting that Orly Taitz is crazy but still supporting her actions.

And in the madhouse, the craziest fellow has a following, too. Depends where you're looking.

201 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:48:30am

re: #189 Charles

It's not "pointless" at all to note that the extremism is getting worse and worse on the right wing. Bedell is just the latest example.

And his talking points are supported by people like Glenn Beck. Yet people say Beck is just an entertainer, a funny man, a joker.

Yeah, like Limbaugh and his racism. Haha, funny stuff.

202 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:48:32am

re: #169 RogueOne

That's not true.....
Left-libertarianism

I disagree. There are varying stripes of libertarians just like there are varying types of Dems/Repubs. This guy was obviously of the libertarian mindset but his anti-military views put him squarely on the left side of our aisle.

Noam Chomsky also refers to himself as a left libertarian.[8] The term is sometimes used synonymously with libertarian socialism[9] Left libertarian parties share with "traditional socialism a distrust of the market, of private investment, and of the achievement ethic, and a commitment to expansion of the welfare state."[10] It has also been used in self-description by geoists who support individuals paying rent to the community for the use of land.[citation needed]

In contrast, right libertarianism holds that there are no fair share constraints on use or appropriation.[11] Radical right libertarians hold that individuals have the power to appropriate unowned things by claiming them (usually by mixing their labor with them), and deny any other conditions or considerations are relevant. Thus they believe there is no justification for the state to redistribute resources to the needy or to overcome market failures.[12]

203 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:48:48am

re: #200 Guanxi88

Which has nothing to do with what you said. People are capable of endorsing someone's craziness on their own side. Plenty of people in the GOP admit that Bachmann is crazy.

204 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:49:19am

re: #188 Conservative Moonbat

I would have said he knew about them in advance and I'm in no way a truther. He was briefed that AQ was determined to strike inside the US. That counts.

Sorry, I don't believe the question was vague enough for a significant number of people to have answered that way, unless of course they already had a hard-on for Bush.

205 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:49:41am

re: #203 Obdicut

Which has nothing to do with what you said. People are capable of endorsing someone's craziness on their own side. Plenty of people in the GOP admit that Bachmann is crazy.

Who'd she shoot?

I make a diagnostic distinction between whacky and dangerous; someone spouting off with odd-ball stuff is whacky. The one who starts sending rounds downrange is dangerous.

206 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:49:43am

re: #203 Obdicut

Which has nothing to do with what you said. People are capable of endorsing someone's craziness on their own side. Plenty of people in the GOP admit that Bachmann is crazy.

Who in the GOP has publicly admitted that Bachmann is crazy? I certainly haven't seen anyone go on the record.

207 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:50:03am

re: #192 Spare O'Lake

Stop digging. We are talking about a guy who hated everything about the government with an unbridled passion. Not a socialist.

I'm not talking about the guy. I'm talking about the definition of left libertarianism. To say he's a left libertarian is false unless he's a libertarian socialist.

208 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:50:30am

re: #206 drcordell

Who in the GOP has publicly admitted that Bachmann is crazy? I certainly haven't seen anyone go on the record.

I'm in the GOP, and I'll say she's crazy.

209 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:50:38am

re: #201 Cato the Elder

And his talking points are supported by people like Glenn Beck. Yet people say Beck is just an entertainer, a funny man, a joker.

Yeah, like Limbaugh and his racism. Haha, funny stuff.

So as a serious point, because you will take my full meaning - how can Rush or Beck not be characterized as evil?

210 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:51:21am

re: #203 Obdicut

Which has nothing to do with what you said. People are capable of endorsing someone's craziness on their own side. Plenty of people in the GOP admit that Bachmann is crazy.

So, is it at Free Republic you're looking or the GOP?

Are we talking about the shooter in DC or Bachmann?

211 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:51:28am

re: #205 Guanxi88

That's nice. So you don't find Michelle Bachmann crazy?

Telling people not to answer the census isn't crazy?

Or are you resting on the hair-split of 'well, not crazy-dangerous'?

212 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:51:29am

It's funny how the democrats accuse the GOP of simply using diversionary arguments. This non-stop scrambling to attach these weirdos to the GOP is exponentially more diversionary. I don't think the public option is a good idea. Oh yeah? Well there's some racists in the Tea Party leadership.

213 RadicalModerate  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:51:39am

Here's a little something to wrap your heads around:

Just under 20 years ago, the rank and file of the Republican Party openly campaigned for a fairly corrupt Democratic candidate for Louisiana Governor in the state's runoff election instead of giving support to the openly racist candidate who ran as a Republican. Given the embracing of the far right that the Republicans have had recently, I truly don't believe that would be the case today.

Wiki link.

Side note: I lived in one of the "red" areas shown in the runoff election map for over 25 years - and was one of the reasons I moved out of state.

214 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:51:41am

re: #166 Alouette

Ew. Those are nasty.

I'll have a poppy-seed bagel.

But I do have a sudden craving for a babka right now :)

215 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:51:49am

re: #211 Obdicut

That's nice. So you don't find Michelle Bachmann crazy?

Telling people not to answer the census isn't crazy?

Or are you resting on the hair-split of 'well, not crazy-dangerous'?

re: #208 Guanxi88

I'm in the GOP, and I'll say she's crazy.

216 shiplord kirel  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:51:52am

Righty: "He hated Bush! He's a lefty!"

Lefty: "He was a gun nut! He's a righty!"

Righty: "Bullshit! He was a troofer! He's yours!

Lefty: "Bullshit yourself! He was a Kurrency Kook! He's yours!

Ghost of shooter: "No, people, I am both of yours."

217 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:52:15am

re: #196 Conservative Moonbat

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Ok, so a word means one thing, and then people make up some other stuff so that it means something totally different. That's not very useful.

218 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:52:28am

re: #216 shiplord kirel

Righty: "He hated Bush! He's a lefty!"

Lefty: "He was a gun nut! He's a righty!"

Righty: "Bullshit! He was a troofer! He's yours!

Lefty: "Bullshit yourself! He was a Kurrency Kook! He's yours!

Ghost of shooter: "No, people, I am both of yours."

Nope, it's not helpful to point that kind of thing out.

219 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:52:45am

re: #210 Guanxi88

Either one will serve. Since you've said you consider her crazy, you've kind of disproved your original statement.

220 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:52:46am

re: #207 Conservative Moonbat

I'm not talking about the guy. I'm talking about the definition of left libertarianism. To say he's a left libertarian is false unless he's a libertarian socialist.

OK, then we're cool.

221 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:53:01am

re: #191 Buck

"Do you think George Bush and his cabinet lied about WMD's in Iraq in order to go to war for Israel"?

"Do you think George Bush and his cabinet did illegal wire taps"?

Yes and yes.

222 Girth  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:54:06am

re: #208 Guanxi88

I'm in the GOP, and I'll say she's crazy.

Please talk to my dad. I told him not too long ago that she's crossed the line into dangerously stupid. Somehow he thinks that she's one of the smarter people in Congress. Made me want to jam pencils in my ears.

223 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:54:36am

re: #219 Obdicut

Either one will serve. Since you've said you consider her crazy, you've kind of disproved your original statement.

You can be crazy without shooting. And you know this, of course.

Bachmann's a nut-bar, but, on the whole, relatively harmless; she hasn't resorted to the use of violence to attain political ends, so far as I can recall. The DC shooter, well, he's crazy, of course, but to a different degree, and in a different manner, than is Bachmann. And you know this, too.

224 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:56:05am

re: #204 Spare O'Lake

Sorry, I don't believe the question was vague enough for a significant number of people to have answered that way, unless of course they already had a hard-on for Bush.

Considering any other way of interpreting the question is the same as asking "Are you insane?" It seems like that's the right way of interpreting it.

225 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:56:05am

re: #222 Girth

Please talk to my dad. I told him not too long ago that she's crossed the line into dangerously stupid. Somehow he thinks that she's one of the smarter people in Congress. Made me want to jam pencils in my ears.

The loud ones always draw the crowds. It's like at the carnival - the barker with the greatest hullabaloo always gets the most folk to his tent.

226 sffilk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:56:14am

re: #166 Alouette

Ew. Those are nasty.

I'll have a poppy-seed bagel.

I like them. I miss them. Just like I miss chocolate hamentaschen.

227 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:56:14am

re: #222 Girth

Please talk to my dad. I told him not too long ago that she's crossed the line into dangerously stupid. Somehow he thinks that she's one of the smarter people in Congress. Made me want to jam pencils in my ears.

She's hiding her intelligence on purpose, right? Your poor ears.

228 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:57:25am

re: #223 Guanxi88

You can be crazy without shooting. And you know this, of course.

Sure. I'm not sure why that's relevant.

Bachmann's a nut-bar, but, on the whole, relatively harmless; she hasn't resorted to the use of violence to attain political ends, so far as I can recall. The DC shooter, well, he's crazy, of course, but to a different degree, and in a different manner, than is Bachmann. And you know this, too.

Sure. It has very little to do with what we're talking about, though. Your claim was that people always say the crazy people are on the other side. This isn't true. If you're saying that people say that the crazy violent people are always on the other side, that also isn't true, as seen by the support for Tiller's murderer and for Stack-- the strange thing about Stack is that even though he appears to be just a crazy without real political motivation, he was being claimed by the anti-government faction as their own.

229 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:57:58am

re: #223 Guanxi88

You can be crazy without shooting. And you know this, of course.

Bachmann's a nut-bar, but, on the whole, relatively harmless; she hasn't resorted to the use of violence to attain political ends, so far as I can recall. The DC shooter, well, he's crazy, of course, but to a different degree, and in a different manner, than is Bachmann. And you know this, too.

Bachmann

"I want people armed and dangerous on this issue" - of cap & trade

Yep, she's done it

230 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:57:59am

re: #208 Guanxi88

I'm in the GOP, and I'll say she's crazy.

Right. But no offense, you are a nobody. Until the day that a public GOP personality steps up to the plate to disavow the paranoid conspiracy theories she spouts on a daily basis, it can be rightfully assumed her rhetoric is approved.

The GOP has no interest in shutting her up, because she is the voice of their base. How can you tell your supporters that you are in partial agreement with Obama when during the entire election cycle and first year of his Presidency you've been describing him as BlackHitlerStalinMao? You can't. And now they've painted themselves into a corner.

231 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:58:07am

re: #156 Cato the Elder

hehe! Well I have to say that Chase is undoubtedly the worst. They were the first to charge 25% interest after one late payment on a credit card. That was back, oh maybe 10-12 years ago.

May I interrupt to say that Obama stopped this "legal" usury??

Their customer service is non-existent. They hung up on me, as I was in midsentence explaining my payment was sitting in their account, I heard "click". Three of them did this to me. Obviously, they are told to hang up on customers. Either that, or they are those Japanese robots we've heard tell about.

232 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:58:15am

re: #206 drcordell

Who in the GOP has publicly admitted that Bachmann is crazy? I certainly haven't seen anyone go on the record.

here. present and voting.

233 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:58:23am

re: #226 sffilk

I like them. I miss them. Just like I miss chocolate hamentaschen.

Why do you miss them... are you that far from a community?

Honestly, and I mean this, if you find yourself in the middle of Africa and want some soul food, there will be a Chabad and they will feed you.

This is one of the reasons I love them so much.

234 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:59:11am

re: #209 LudwigVanQuixote

So as a serious point, because you will take my full meaning - how can Rush or Beck not be characterized as evil?

If Beck honestly believes the idiotic crap he is spouting and is motivated by a deranged but sincere sense of altruism then he cannot be fairly characterized as evil. This is not always an easy concept, but it is one which is legally recognized in the sense of one lacking mens rea, the evil mind.

235 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:59:14am

re: #187 LudwigVanQuixote

It is all the same phenomena, if there is no competition or regulation, they do not need to care.

And guess who argues the strongest about supporting the mega corps and reducing regulation?

.... hmmmm...

S A T A N??

236 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:59:26am

re: #228 Obdicut

Sure. It has very little to do with what we're talking about, though. Your claim was that people always say the crazy people are on the other side. This isn't true. If you're saying that people say that the crazy violent people are always on the other side, that also isn't true, as seen by the support for Tiller's murderer and for Stack-- the strange thing about Stack is that even though he appears to be just a crazy without real political motivation, he was being claimed by the anti-government faction as their own.

Ask a room full of righties about the Unabomber - they'll tell you he was of the left.

As a room full of lefties about Stack, and they'll say he was of the right.

And there will be unhinged folk at both ends of the spectrum to confirm it.

237 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:59:44am

re: #209 LudwigVanQuixote

So as a serious point, because you will take my full meaning - how can Rush or Beck not be characterized as evil?

"We must not see any person as an abstraction.
Instead we must see in every person a universe with its own secrets,
with its own treasures, with its own sources of anguish,
and with some measure of triumph."

–Elie Wiesel
from The Nazi Doctors and the Nuremberg Code

238 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:59:45am

re: #232 Aceofwhat?

here. present and voting.

Again, you aren't an elected official that can speak officially for the GOP. The House leadership could easily disavow Bachmann's lunacy, as could the Senate. But they don't. They willingly stay silent.

239 sffilk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 11:59:58am

re: #184 LudwigVanQuixote

Mebst!

Real bagels are not toroidal muffins! If you want chocolate and dough have a babka!

Can't get a decent babka out here in Atlanta. The best ones were at Brown's Bakery on Victory Blvd. in North Hollywood, CA (a kosher-style bakery).

Real bagels are kneaded by stout men and women with forearms like pop-eye. They come in plain (or with toppings like sesame seeds, poppy seeds, onion etc...) rye, pumpernick or black and white.

They are crispy on the outside and chewy and moist on the inside. The are at once, dense yet airy.

Speak not of your goyshe muffins to me!

///

Well half sarc, we can still be friends if you like even blueberry bagels :)

No one makes real bagels like I grew up with in New York down here in Jaw-jah, so youse gotta take what youse can get, ya know?

I also like blueberry bagels, and caraway seed bagels, and pumpernickel bagels, and egg bagels, but since no one down here does the bake and boil, I have to settle for what they've got.

And I still like chocolate chip bagels.

240 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:00:38pm

re: #209 LudwigVanQuixote

So as a serious point, because you will take my full meaning - how can Rush or Beck not be characterized as evil?

They are evil. And they know it. Evil is Beck's replacement for the bottle. He would be better off drinking.

241 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:00:47pm

For the record, Libertarian Socialists are called "Anarchists"

Bedell was not a leftist, his love for Austrian Economics proves this.

If he was quoting Chomsky, Emma Goldman or Alexander Berkman I would agree that he was a Libertarian Socialist, but he was singing the praises of Ludwig Von Mises which is an extreme form of rightwing capitalist economic policies.

242 Girth  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:00:57pm

re: #227 Stanley Sea

She's hiding her intelligence on purpose, right? Your poor ears.

I don't know what made my brain hurt more, that he really likes Bachmann (he'd LOVE Palin/Bachmann 2012) or that he said that he likes Fox News because they have less spin than the other channels.

I'd like to think I'm the milkman's kid, but sadly, no.

243 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:01:25pm

re: #230 drcordell

Right. But no offense, you are a nobody

No offense taken, although my colleagues on the Judiciary Panel might not be so forgiving/

:)

244 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:01:44pm

re: #192 Spare O'Lake

Stop digging. We are talking about a guy who hated everything about the government with an unbridled passion. Not a socialist.

I'm so freaking confused. What does a "left Libertarian" believe? I never heard of such a term.

245 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:02:02pm

re: #231 marjoriemoon

hehe! Well I have to say that Chase is undoubtedly the worst. They were the first to charge 25% interest after one late payment on a credit card. That was back, oh maybe 10-12 years ago.

May I interrupt to say that Obama stopped this "legal" usury??

Their customer service is non-existent. They hung up on me, as I was in midsentence explaining my payment was sitting in their account, I heard "click". Three of them did this to me. Obviously, they are told to hang up on customers. Either that, or they are those Japanese robots we've heard tell about.

They all suck. I have a very long tale of woe from a time that Bank of America failed to deposit a paycheck of mine - even though get this, I had taken it in to be deposited and had a receipt. They just lost the check on their side of the window somewhere.

They tried to explain to me that the receipt was not really proof that they had my check, that it only mean that the cashier had seen my check and that I could have reached over for some reason and taken it back. I explained that since their many inch thick bullet proof glass was intact and that my hands would not fit under it, this was physically impossible.

The story gets more crazy from there. The short form is that a court held that a receipt really is a legal document that says they received my money.

246 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:02:03pm

re: #236 Guanxi88

Again, what does that prove? People have publicly endorsed Tiller's actions and Stack's actions for their 'side'. Michelle Bachmann has not been forced out of the GOP despite saying absolutely crazy shit on a regular basis.

Crazy people are problematic, but they are not always identified with the other side. It's simply not true.

247 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:02:05pm

re: #232 Aceofwhat?

here. present and voting.

Doesn't count. It has to be someone that the left wingnuts post links about. And they don't post links about people like that. See how that works?

248 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:02:06pm

re: #244 marjoriemoon

I'm so freaking confused. What does a "left Libertarian" believe? I never heard of such a term.

Chomsky's the current exemplar of the type.

249 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:02:12pm

re: #217 cliffster

Ok, so a word means one thing, and then people make up some other stuff so that it means something totally different. That's not very useful.

In the traditional European sense, libertarianism is a collectivist leftist ideology. It's only in the US that the minarchists and anarcho-capitalists have hijacked it to make it a right wing individualistic ideology.

250 Sheila Broflovski  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:02:12pm

re: #184 LudwigVanQuixote

Mebst!

Real bagels are not toroidal muffins! If you want chocolate and dough have a babka!

Real bagels are kneaded by stout men and women with forearms like pop-eye. They come in plain (or with toppings like sesame seeds, poppy seeds, onion etc...) rye, pumpernick or black and white.

They are crispy on the outside and chewy and moist on the inside. The are at once, dense yet airy.

Speak not of your goyshe muffins to me!

///

Well half sarc, we can still be friends if you like even blueberry bagels :)

My daughter made these bagels from scratch.

Is she talented or what?

251 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:02:31pm

re: #240 Cato the Elder

They are evil. And they know it. Evil is Beck's replacement for the bottle. He would be better off drinking.

What makes Beck evil IMHO is that he is knowingly spreading false information under the guise of news. He doesn't believe half of what he says, and he'll readily admit as much. But he is making a great living doling out tripe to his willfully ignorant followers. And that's what makes him evil. The fact that he is a complete and utter cynic.

252 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:02:34pm

re: #202 Killgore Trout

That's not true...
Left-libertarianism

The anti-military types are all on the left side of the aisle in terms of libertarians. This guy went out trying to take out military personnel, I'm not sure what other evidence we need.

BTW, did you notice one of the left-libertarian scholars wiki mentions in the article is Charles Johnson. You have to scroll over the name to see it's "Charles W. Johnson". Just thought that was ironic.

253 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:02:42pm

re: #231 marjoriemoon


{snip}
Their customer service is non-existent. They hung up on me, as I was in midsentence explaining my payment was sitting in their account, I heard "click". Three of them did this to me. Obviously, they are told to hang up on customers. Either that, or they are those Japanese robots we've heard tell about.

Domo arigato?

/

254 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:02:53pm

re: #197 Mad Al-Jaffee

I like sesame seed, onion and garlic.

You can throw salt in there too :)

255 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:03:06pm

re: #237 goddamnedfrank

"We must not see any person as an abstraction.
Instead we must see in every person a universe with its own secrets,
with its own treasures, with its own sources of anguish,
and with some measure of triumph."

–Elie Wiesel
from The Nazi Doctors and the Nuremberg Code

Oh your point is so well taken, and not what I am driving for at all.

I am simply saying that if you are knowingly inciting evil you are part of the evil. I would imagine that we all agree that racism is evil.

256 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:03:20pm

re: #252 RogueOne

Rogue, given that Paulians are often isolationist and against a lot of military stuff, how can you say that?

257 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:03:53pm

re: #249 Conservative Moonbat

In the traditional European sense, libertarianism is a collectivist leftist ideology. It's only in the US that the minarchists and anarcho-capitalists have hijacked it to make it a right wing individualistic ideology.

Okee dokee. Pardon me while I don't waste my time in a discussion that is 100% semantics...

258 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:03:59pm

re: #148 Obdicut

To me, this is a very repellent endorsement of the actions of those using political violence. You truly believe that they're fighting back against injustice?

I really hope I've misunderstood you.

been back and forth. have we repudiated JCW's crap enough yet or is it still squirming enough for me to put a side snap kick in it?

259 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:04:22pm

re: #247 cliffster

Doesn't count. It has to be someone that the left wingnuts post links about. And they don't post links about people like that. See how that works?

Are you serious? You can't tell the difference between somebody posting on LGF, and an elected official making a statement that is disseminated nationally?

260 Interesting Times  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:04:42pm

re: #242 Girth

I'd like to think I'm the milkman's kid, but sadly, no.

You're an apple that fell from the tree, rolled down an embankment, bounced a few times, and landed on the back of a flatbed truck that drove across several state lines? :)

261 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:05:14pm

re: #246 Obdicut

Again, what does that prove? People have publicly endorsed Tiller's actions and Stack's actions for their 'side'. Michelle Bachmann has not been forced out of the GOP despite saying absolutely crazy shit on a regular basis.

Crazy people are problematic, but they are not always identified with the other side. It's simply not true.

And folk on the left have endorsed the Unabomber, and McKinney wasn't booted out of the Dem's for her crazy bullshit.

Every family's got its share of nutballs. Well, I don't want to presume, so I'll exclude yours, confident that the ones in mine more than make up the difference.

262 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:05:28pm

re: #256 Obdicut

Rogue, given that Paulians are often isolationist and against a lot of military stuff, how can you say that?

You don't see a difference between being an isolationist, like Paul and Buchanan, and being "anti-military"? I mentioned Buchanan as an example this morning, he is absolutely an isolationist while at the same time being very pro-military.

263 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:05:39pm

re: #250 Alouette

My daughter made these bagels from scratch.

Is she talented or what?

So you were mentioning that she is single right?

264 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:05:51pm

re: #214 LudwigVanQuixote

But I do have a sudden craving for a babka right now :)

Cinnamon or chocolate?? :>

265 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:06:00pm

re: #261 Guanxi88


Thank you for conceding that your original statement was completely wrong.

266 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:06:08pm

re: #238 drcordell

Again, you aren't an elected official that can speak officially for the GOP. The House leadership could easily disavow Bachmann's lunacy, as could the Senate. But they don't. They willingly stay silent.

Present.

267 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:06:27pm

re: #255 LudwigVanQuixote

Cool. The quote's been living with me lately because it is the forward of The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks. Such an incredible story.

268 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:06:36pm

re: #262 RogueOne

If you're going to grant that amount of latitude, then I don't think the phrase 'anti-military' retains much meaning.

269 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:06:50pm

re: #264 marjoriemoon

Cinnamon or chocolate?? :>

Ummm... both! With a nice espresso and a scoop of vanilla ice cream!

270 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:07:04pm

re: #252 RogueOne

The anti-military types are all on the left side of the aisle in terms of libertarians.

That is not even close to being true.

271 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:07:22pm

re: #248 Guanxi88

Chomsky's the current exemplar of the type.

I glanced through that wiki page. I'm not getting this. Libertarians who don't want any taxes, no school, no roads, no nothing are characterized as Left? I think that would be Right. Liberals, regular ole' Dem liberals, support taxes. So no, I need a class or something.

272 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:07:25pm

re: #264 marjoriemoon

Cinnamon or chocolate?? :>

we just finished the last of the chocolate babka and rainbow cookies in the house!

Black and white cookies only last bout an hour.

273 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:07:38pm

re: #230 drcordell

you mean paranoid theories like 'if Israel would just do better, the Palestinian mess would just melt away'?

Oops, no, wait - that was you.

274 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:07:56pm

re: #258 Aceofwhat?

That one was over the line, in my opinion, especially since he didn't explain himself. The obvious meaning is that these people are fighting injustice. Without clarification, that's an incredibly reprehensible position.

275 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:08:00pm

re: #256 Obdicut

Rogue, given that Paulians are often isolationist and against a lot of military stuff, how can you say that?

Why are so many people trying to protect the word "Left"? No one that I've seen here has tried to claim he's a democrat, liberal,a progressive, or even a leftist. Quit trying to steal the word "left"!

276 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:08:32pm

re: #252 RogueOne

The anti-military types are all on the left side of the aisle in terms of libertarians. This guy went out trying to take out military personnel, I'm not sure what other evidence we need.

BTW, did you notice one of the left-libertarian scholars wiki mentions in the article is Charles Johnson. You have to scroll over the name to see it's "Charles W. Johnson". Just thought that was ironic.

You can be right wing and be anti-military. Look at Ron Paul and Pat Buchanan.

The left wing / right wing split is made over one's view of private property and labor..

277 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:08:49pm

re: #268 Obdicut

If you're going to grant that amount of latitude, then I don't think the phrase 'anti-military' retains much meaning.

Much like the term, "right-wing" pretty much loses meaning when you make the arguments about psychopaths being right-wing.

278 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:09:23pm

re: #241 Spockista

For the record, Libertarian Socialists are called "Anarchists"

Bedell was not a leftist, his love for Austrian Economics proves this.

If he was quoting Chomsky, Emma Goldman or Alexander Berkman I would agree that he was a Libertarian Socialist, but he was singing the praises of Ludwig Von Mises which is an extreme form of rightwing capitalist economic policies.

Anarchists... hmmm... that I can maybe understand.

Didn't Charles say this in his interview with Conn? At some point the far left and the far right sorta wrap around and join each other.

279 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:09:32pm

re: #271 marjoriemoon

I glanced through that wiki page. I'm not getting this. Libertarians who don't want any taxes, no school, no roads, no nothing are characterized as Left? I think that would be Right. Liberals, regular ole' Dem liberals, support taxes. So no, I need a class or something.

No, Chomsky is an anarchist. It's a form of leftism who is against authority but pro-collectivism and equal rights.

280 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:10:08pm

re: #275 RogueOne

I'm sorry, I honestly don't understand that post.

My point is: A lot of Paulians are anti-military, either anti-uses-the-military-is-put-to (which is what most of the 'anti-military' left) is composed of, or otherwise.

The Paulians are ascendant on the 'right' at the moment.

I think that for what you're saying to be true you have to include a broad definition of 'anti-military' when talking about the left, but a very, very narrow one when talking about the right. If you use the same definition for both, you'll find a lot of anti-military sentiment on the right, libertarian or no.

281 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:10:17pm

It shouldn't surprise anyone that people like Bedell are popping up and committing violent acts -- Fox News has been legitimizing this strain of craziness all year, with frequent appearances by Judge Napolitano, Ron Paul, and other extremist libertarians. Napolitano has even had some of the real wackos on his Fox News show, people like Alex Jones and Lew Rockwell.

This is not happening in a vacuum. There's been a determined campaign to legitimize these extreme points of view, and it's starting to bear noxious fruit.

282 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:10:24pm

re: #274 Obdicut

That one was over the line, in my opinion, especially since he didn't explain himself. The obvious meaning is that these people are fighting injustice. Without clarification, that's an incredibly reprehensible position.

i agree 100%, and will deride him mercilessly, unless the proverbial horse is already dead.

trying to keep my dead-horse kicking to a minimum.

283 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:10:45pm

re: #239 sffilk

No one makes real bagels like I grew up with in New York down here in Jaw-jah, so youse gotta take what youse can get, ya know?

I also like blueberry bagels, and caraway seed bagels, and pumpernickel bagels, and egg bagels, but since no one down here does the bake and boil, I have to settle for what they've got.

And I still like chocolate chip bagels.

You have every right to like what you want :) You know I was just ragging you.

But seriously, even before I kept kosher the idea of bacon and cheese on a bagel caused me to feel like my culture was being raped - even if people who like such things say the combination tastes really good.

284 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:10:54pm

re: #271 marjoriemoon

I glanced through that wiki page. I'm not getting this. Libertarians who don't want any taxes, no school, no roads, no nothing are characterized as Left? I think that would be Right. Liberals, regular ole' Dem liberals, support taxes. So no, I need a class or something.

They are more like anarchists. Non-authoritarian socialists.

285 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:10:54pm

re: #266 Spare O'Lake

Present.

GOP ≠ a Republican. The GOP is the official political party. A Republican can be anyone. If you're a Republican and you support abortion rights, that does not mean you can speak for the GOP. And likewise, simply because you have repudiated Bachmann's statements, that does not mean the GOP has.

286 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:12:09pm

re: #263 LudwigVanQuixote

So you were mentioning that she is single right?

Beat me to it.

Several things: You have to stop using the word "phenomena" as though it were singular. It will give the AGW deniers reason to doubt your credentials.

Two, I like "everything" bagels. You know how they were invented? Somebody saw all the stuff that fell off of poppy, onion, garlic, sesame, salt, and other kinds of bagels on the floor of the oven, and said, "Hey, I could put that on a bagel and sell it!"

Three, Glenn Beck is without doubt evil, because he knows he's pushing bullshit (which he half believes, half doesn't) and he couldn't care less as long as the checks don't bounce. And he already has blood on his hands.

287 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:12:45pm

re: #278 marjoriemoon

Anarchists... hmmm... that I can maybe understand.

Didn't Charles say this in his interview with Conn? At some point the far left and the far right sorta wrap around and join each other.

Rightwing libertarianism and leftwing libertarianism are pretty different.

Rightwing libertarians want the freedom to exploit the poor, be racist, and oppress while leftwing libertarians want freedom from all of the above.

It can get complicated.

I am a Libertarian Socialist aka Anarchist.

No I don't wear a black hoodie and break windows. But, if you read Emma Goldman or Alexander Berkman you will understand.

288 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:13:33pm

re: #277 cliffster

I'm sorry, what are you talking about? There are definitely psychopaths that are 'right-wing'. That doesn't mean that all psychopaths are right wing, or anything beyond that. There are definitely psychopaths that are 'left-wing' as well.

I do think there has been disturbing amounts of irresponsible speech, included from elected officials in the GOP, resounding with violence and endorsing crazy-ass anti-government positions. I think they should cut it the hell out. I think that the GOP is endorsing and allowing a level of anti-government speech that is truly dangerous.

Allowing the Birchers into CPAC as a group in good standing, for example.

289 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:13:35pm

re: #252 RogueOne

The anti-military types are all on the left side of the aisle in terms of libertarians


That's not true but it's becoming clear that you aren't interested in reality.

290 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:13:43pm

re: #273 Aceofwhat?

you mean paranoid theories like 'if Israel would just do better, the Palestinian mess would just melt away'?

Oops, no, wait - that was you.

You're completely misrepresenting my position. Acknowledging that the "ball is in Israel's court" when it comes to the peace process does not mean that "if Israel would do better the mess would melt away." It simply means that for the peace process to succeed, Israel must take the initiative, because they are the dominant power. I hardly think that this is some sort of radical position. It is the reality of the situation.

291 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:13:53pm

re: #234 Spare O'Lake

If Beck honestly believes the idiotic crap he is spouting and is motivated by a deranged but sincere sense of altruism then he cannot be fairly characterized as evil. This is not always an easy concept, but it is one which is legally recognized in the sense of one lacking mens rea, the evil mind.

Hitler believed he was a virtuous hero. Evil people almost always think they are the actually the good guys. The fact that people are good at rationalizing does not make their actions less evil or their real motives more pure.

292 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:14:20pm

re: #265 Obdicut

Thank you for conceding that your original statement was completely wrong.

Exactly. The nutballs and the violent aren't anything more or other than nutballs and violent folk. Which was my point, whic evidently got missed entirely going down the rabbit hole of "all" and "none" as terms used syllogistically, and not, as I might have thought, for conversational purposes.

To restate the case so as to satisfy your precise linguistic requirements:

"It is often the case that violent actions by deranged individuals are assigned a political weight that is not always in accord with broader political facts of the polity in which they occur. For this reason, it is not at all uncommon for partisans of one side or another to latch onto instances of violence perpetrated by persons of dubious mental stability in an effort to bring dishonor upon their political opponents. In so doing, of course, they rather miss the point that the use of violence outside the State's legitimate monopoly - assuming the State be legitimate, and the actors and agents assigned to the exercise thereof are acting in perfect accord with the nouminal truth - on political violence is itself destructive of the polity as a whole."

293 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:14:29pm

re: #286 Cato the Elder

this part

Several things: You have to stop using the word "phenomena" as though it were singular. It will give the AGW deniers reason to doubt your credentials.

restated for hilarity

294 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:14:36pm

re: #283 LudwigVanQuixote

You have every right to like what you want :) You know I was just ragging you.

But seriously, even before I kept kosher the idea of bacon and cheese on a bagel caused me to feel like my culture was being raped - even if people who like such things say the combination tastes really good.

It's the bagel that's the deal-breaker for me. ;D

295 sffilk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:14:55pm

re: #214 LudwigVanQuixote

But I do have a sudden craving for a babka right now :)

Provided, of course, you can get a really really really good one. You can't get one like that here in Georgia.

296 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:15:23pm

re: #290 drcordell

You're completely misrepresenting my position. Acknowledging that the "ball is in Israel's court" when it comes to the peace process does not mean that "if Israel would do better the mess would melt away." It simply means that for the peace process to succeed, Israel must take the initiative, because they are the dominant power. I hardly think that this is some sort of radical position. It is the reality of the situation.

okey-dokey!

297 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:16:02pm

re: #270 Charles

That is not even close to being true.

We disagree. I don't run with the libertarian crowd IRL anymore but when I did the easiest way for me to figure out if we had common ground was to ask about their views on the military. IMO, the libertarians that detest the military are almost always on the left/anarchist/socialist side of the aisle. There are quite a few libertarians in uniform that fall squarely on the right side of that political view.

I've posted Balko stuff here before and he's absolutely on the left side of the aisle and has some serious issues when it comes to the military. I still appreciate his writing but I don't believe there is much question where he falls on the libertarian scale.

298 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:16:21pm

re: #286 Cato the Elder

Beat me to it.

Several things: You have to stop using the word "phenomena" as though it were singular. It will give the AGW deniers reason to doubt your credentials.

Two, I like "everything" bagels. You know how they were invented? Somebody saw all the stuff that fell off of poppy, onion, garlic, sesame, salt, and other kinds of bagels on the floor of the oven, and said, "Hey, I could put that on a bagel and sell it!"

Three, Glenn Beck is without doubt evil, because he knows he's pushing bullshit (which he half believes, half doesn't) and he couldn't care less as long as the checks don't bounce. And he already has blood on his hands.

Ahh I have to quibble with you.

You are technically correct of course phenomenon is the English singular used most of the time, however, phenomena while plural is commonly used interchangeably as singular and plural - like fish.

If you want to get really technical, then wouldn't the proper plural be phenomenae?

299 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:16:32pm

re: #296 Aceofwhat?

okey-dokey!

You disagree with that statement? That Israel is the party in control, and therefore the peace process lives or dies at their behest?

300 zora  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:16:33pm

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

glad to see an example of conservatives calling out liz cheney.

301 sffilk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:16:39pm

re: #233 LudwigVanQuixote

Why do you miss them... are you that far from a community?

Honestly, and I mean this, if you find yourself in the middle of Africa and want some soul food, there will be a Chabad and they will feed you.

This is one of the reasons I love them so much.

No, it's because they don't make them down here the way they did/do in New York, that's why. And the Chabadnikim get their stuff from the glatt kosher bakery near where I live, and they don't do bagels like they did (I don't know if they still do) in New York City.

302 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:16:42pm

re: #292 Guanxi88

No, the nutballs-- like Michelle Bachmann- are more than 'just nutballs', though A does equal A so I'm not even sure what you meant by that. It's another pretty meaningless statement.

You're still spinning it. Just with fancier words.

Would you excuse Hitler of not really belonging to the Nazi ideology because he was of dubious mental stability?

/Godwin.

303 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:17:09pm

re: #297 RogueOne

We disagree.

You can disagree all you like, but it's simply not true that only left wing libertarians are anti-military.

304 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:18:17pm

By the way, who sweeps up after all the rhetorical hairs have been split?

Just askin'...

305 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:18:27pm

re: #280 Obdicut

I'm sorry, I honestly don't understand that post.

My point is: A lot of Paulians are anti-military, either anti-uses-the-military-is-put-to (which is what most of the 'anti-military' left) is composed of, or otherwise.

The Paulians are ascendant on the 'right' at the moment.

I think that for what you're saying to be true you have to include a broad definition of 'anti-military' when talking about the left, but a very, very narrow one when talking about the right. If you use the same definition for both, you'll find a lot of anti-military sentiment on the right, libertarian or no.

We disagree. The right of the libertarian crowd is full of military types, myself included. Buchanan is an isolationist mostly because he has an issue with Jews, not the military. Paul is a different story entirely but still isn't anti-military he just doesn't believe there is ever really a need for their use. The left side of the libertarian crowd HATES and fears the military, it's a pretty large distinction.

306 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:18:41pm

re: #290 drcordell

You're completely misrepresenting my position. Acknowledging that the "ball is in Israel's court" when it comes to the peace process does not mean that "if Israel would do better the mess would melt away." It simply means that for the peace process to succeed, Israel must take the initiative, because they are the dominant power. I hardly think that this is some sort of radical position. It is the reality of the situation.

Such caca, to quote Ionesco.

The ball was in Israel's court when they were challenged to give up the settlements in Gaza, which they did, using brute force against their own people to make a concession to the "Palestinians" and the world. They uprooted people from their homes and businesses, and gave the infrastructure intact to the Gazans. They shot that ball right over to the other side.

What was lobbed back? Rockets on Sderot.

How many times does Israel have to toss a ball to the other side before the other side actually starts playing the same game?

307 sffilk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:18:42pm

re: #264 marjoriemoon

Cinnamon or chocolate?? :>

CHOCOLATE!!!

308 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:18:46pm

re: #303 Charles

You can disagree all you like, but it's simply not true that only left wing libertarians are anti-military.

This is quite true. Many of the racist white nationalist groups are very anti-military.

309 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:18:49pm

re: #302 Obdicut

No, the nutballs-- like Michelle Bachmann- are more than 'just nutballs', though A does equal A so I'm not even sure what you meant by that. It's another pretty meaningless statement.

You're still spinning it. Just with fancier words.

Would you excuse Hitler of not really belonging to the Nazi ideology because he was of dubious mental stability?

/Godwin.

Gotta love the "no true scotsman" fallacy.

310 sffilk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:19:10pm

re: #272 Spockista

we just finished the last of the chocolate babka and rainbow cookies in the house!

Black and white cookies only last bout an hour.

That long?

311 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:19:41pm

re: #303 Charles

You can disagree all you like, but it's simply not true that only left wing libertarians are anti-military.

You're right, I should't have made the blanket statement "all".

312 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:19:41pm

re: #285 drcordell

re: #266 Spare O'Lake
Present.
GOP ≠ a Republican. The GOP is the official political party. A Republican can be anyone. If you're a Republican and you support abortion rights, that does not mean you can speak for the GOP. And likewise, simply because you have repudiated Bachmann's statements, that does not mean the GOP has.

When I voted "Present" it meant absolutely nothing other than I was copping out...if you don't believe me just ask Obama.

313 webevintage  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:20:21pm

re: #300 zora

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

glad to see an example of conservatives calling out liz cheney.

That ad is the most disgusting piece I have seen in a long time.
The pit of my disdain for Cheney's spawn is bottomless.
She is a truly horrible person.

314 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:20:25pm

re: #305 RogueOne

I have associated with a lot of left-libertarians, not seen this fear or hatred for the military, simply a great antipathy for the uses the military is put to-- the same as Dr. Paul. So yes, we disagree, but I urge you to revisit those definitions, and see if as many on the left are really 'anti-military' if you excuse anyone who just doesn't approve of particular actions the military takes or ways the military is used.

315 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:20:25pm

re: #176 LudwigVanQuixote

You should look up Rommel's quote about the attributes of different officers.

The moonbats are stupid and lazy.

The wingnuts are stupid and industrious.

The wingnuts are much more dangerous as a whole.

Good point though it was von Moltke the Elder who said that first, not Rommel. The other two categories of leader, BTW are smart and industrious (which describes you, Ludwig), and smart and lazy, which describes me.

316 filetandrelease  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:20:32pm

re: #298 LudwigVanQuixote

Lvq
Just a personal note. Since our last chat where I basically said you were full of it for your dire predictions due to AGW if nothing is done, I have made the time for a little research on the matter. Combine that with the recent study Charles posted outlining the rapid release of methane gas from the ocean floor and clearly it would be unwise to simply dismiss reports such as yours that project the potential for billions of deaths.

My apologies for insulting your work.

This is a difficult issue for the layman because there are some many conflicting reports. Unfortunately the data clearly indicates an ominous trend.

I hope you are wrong but hence forth will take your positions regarding AGW and its potential consequences seriously.

On the other hand, if you bash us conservatives in general I will be calling in the flying monkeys.

317 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:20:32pm

re: #301 sffilk

No, it's because they don't make them down here the way they did/do in New York, that's why. And the Chabadnikim get their stuff from the glatt kosher bakery near where I live, and they don't do bagels like they did (I don't know if they still do) in New York City.

OK that I totally hear.

If you are outside of NY or Israel, you should not expect the kinds of bagels you are talking about - even in places like Baltimore, though to be fair some come close. The caveat to that is if someone has a bubbie who knows how do do it.

I never ever discount the power of the bubbie.

318 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:20:42pm

re: #299 drcordell

You disagree with that statement? That Israel is the party in control, and therefore the peace process lives or dies at their behest?

Well...if you mean that they could just wipe them out, then i guess i concede that point. Fortunately, Israel holds herself to a higher standard than her enemies.

If that's not what you mean, then I think the only alternative is that you're just waiting for Israel to quit fooling around and get this right for once.

I might disagree with that.

Maybe there's a third alternative, something to do with unicorns, and i'm just missing it...

319 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:20:57pm

re: #302 Obdicut

No, the nutballs-- like Michelle Bachmann- are more than 'just nutballs', though A does equal A so I'm not even sure what you meant by that. It's another pretty meaningless statement.

You're still spinning it. Just with fancier words.

Would you excuse Hitler of not really belonging to the Nazi ideology because he was of dubious mental stability?

/Godwin.

Bachmann's a nut-ball. If you wanna make her the right-wing boogeyman of the day, so be it. Yes, A = A; we can't argue by tautology, though, so you'll have to give me more, please.

You Godwinn'ed yourself, but we'll continue.

Hitler was himself the father of the ideology, and I d not think he was of dubious mental stability, at least not at first. Embracing what he had begun drove him into madness, but he chose to make evil his good, as it were.

And a meaningless statement would be "This statement is meaningless."

320 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:21:18pm

re: #305 RogueOne

We disagree. The right of the libertarian crowd is full of military types, myself included. Buchanan is an isolationist mostly because he has an issue with Jews, not the military. Paul is a different story entirely but still isn't anti-military he just doesn't believe there is ever really a need for their use. The left side of the libertarian crowd HATES and fears the military, it's a pretty large distinction.

The left side of the libertarian crowd doesn't believe in private property.

All the people you're describing are still right wring.

321 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:21:25pm

re: #310 sffilk

That long?

I buy them by the box at Wegman's . Not quite the same as from the country of NY, but still good.

They also sell knishes there.

I had to teach all my nonNY pals how to slice them in half and apply mustard.

322 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:21:30pm

re: #309 drcordell

Gotta love the "no true scotsman" fallacy.

Yes, it's peculiarity of the Right, and Scotsmen.

323 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:21:52pm

re: #316 filetandrelease

Way to go, man! I wish I could give you half my karma for that post, seriously.

324 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:22:40pm

re: #314 Obdicut

I have associated with a lot of left-libertarians, not seen this fear or hatred for the military, simply a great antipathy for the uses the military is put to-- the same as Dr. Paul. So yes, we disagree, but I urge you to revisit those definitions, and see if as many on the left are really 'anti-military' if you excuse anyone who just doesn't approve of particular actions the military takes or ways the military is used.

They don't like military personnel in general which is where I draw the line. I can respect someone for their isolationist views, even if I disagree, but there is a lot of actual hatred of all people in uniform and they're almost always on the left side of the libertarian spectrum.

325 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:23:32pm

re: #324 RogueOne

They don't like military personnel in general which is where I draw the line. I can respect someone for their isolationist views, even if I disagree, but there is a lot of actual hatred of all people in uniform and they're almost always on the left side of the libertarian spectrum.

No, no, no! Haven't you been paying attention?

Hatred and violence and anything and everything of which all decent human beings disapprove are firmly of the Right.

//

326 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:23:39pm

re: #315 Dark_Falcon

Good point though it was von Moltke the Elder who said that first, not Rommel. The other two categories of leader, BTW are smart and industrious (which describes you, Ludwig), and smart and lazy, which describes me.

tsk, tsk.

5th category: meat popsicle. me.

327 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:23:49pm

re: #288 Obdicut

I'm sorry, what are you talking about? There are definitely psychopaths that are 'right-wing'. That doesn't mean that all psychopaths are right wing, or anything beyond that. There are definitely psychopaths that are 'left-wing' as well.

The terms right-wing and left-wing lose meaning, especially in discussions like this. A term is only useful if you can use the meaning to communicate ideas. If you are in a struggle about the meaning itself, it's no longer useful.


I do think there has been disturbing amounts of irresponsible speech, included from elected officials in the GOP, resounding with violence and endorsing crazy-ass anti-government positions. I think they should cut it the hell out. I think that the GOP is endorsing and allowing a level of anti-government speech that is truly dangerous.


Maybe so. I think there has been disturbing amounts of irresponsible speech endorsing bloated government. I think that blaming the GOP or Fox News for stuff like the Pentagon shooting is either opportunistic or completely out of touch with reality.

328 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:23:58pm

re: #252 RogueOne

The anti-military types are all on the left side of the aisle in terms of libertarians. This guy went out trying to take out military personnel, I'm not sure what other evidence we need.

BTW, did you notice one of the left-libertarian scholars wiki mentions in the article is Charles Johnson. You have to scroll over the name to see it's "Charles W. Johnson". Just thought that was ironic.

Charles doesn't have an uncommon first or last name. There's likely 20 or more Charles Johnsons in this country. Charles is, however, the best man of the lot.

329 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:24:30pm

re: #298 LudwigVanQuixote

Ahh I have to quibble with you.

You are technically correct of course phenomenon is the English singular used most of the time, however, phenomena while plural is commonly used interchangeably as singular and plural - like fish.

If you want to get really technical, then wouldn't the proper plural be phenomenae?

Wrong. Simply wrong.

Criterion - criteria.
Millennium - millennia.
Phenomenon - phenomena.

Latin and Greek nouns that end in -um or -on in the singular virtually always take the plural in -a.

If "phenomena" were a singular noun (which it never is), "phenomenae" would be correct as the plural (it's not).

I gave up on the NYT as a style guide when they started using the word "millenniums". What's next? "Phenomenons"?

You don't parse Latin with Cato, and Cato won't piss on your science. Hmmkay?

;^)

330 Yashmak  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:25:01pm

Apparently, Bedell was a registered Democrat. It appears she has a link to some site which compiles voter registration records or some such thing.

331 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:25:09pm

re: #324 RogueOne

Well, I'm saying that number of people is vanishingly small, and I think that the anarcho-socialists on the 'left' side of the spectrum are not at all endorsed by the establishment of the 'left' at all, wheareas the crazies on the right, like the Birchers are being cozied up to.

I also think there are a lot of anarcho-capitalists on the 'right' that have hatred for the military as the arm of the government as well.

332 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:25:17pm

re: #324 RogueOne

They don't like military personnel in general which is where I draw the line. I can respect someone for their isolationist views, even if I disagree, but there is a lot of actual hatred of all people in uniform and they're almost always on the left side of the libertarian spectrum.

I have never heard of a leftist wanting to pick up a gun and shoot at the Pentagon.

I have seen protests where leftist climbed over the Pentagon fences in protest.

And I see a lot of both the Pentagon and leftists.

333 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:25:32pm

re: #324 RogueOne

They don't like military personnel in general which is where I draw the line. I can respect someone for their isolationist views, even if I disagree, but there is a lot of actual hatred of all people in uniform and they're almost always on the left side of the libertarian spectrum.

Quite Concur.

334 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:26:58pm

re: #327 cliffster

I don't think the terms 'left' and 'right' are ever really that accurate, but in so far as they are, I stand by what I said.

Maybe so. I think there has been disturbing amounts of irresponsible speech endorsing bloated government. I think that blaming the GOP or Fox News for stuff like the Pentagon shooting is either opportunistic or completely out of touch with reality.

I think comparing irresponsible speech endorsing violence and that endorsing 'bloated government' is ill-advised.

Do you feel like the GOP should take any action in reference to Michelle Bachmann of the crazy-eyes? Anything at all?

335 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:27:07pm

If someone is a libertarian and they believe in private property, they are a right libertarian. If they believe all property is theft and believe in a labor theory of value, they are left libertarians.

336 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:27:14pm

Generally speaking, if you start hearing exclamations of, "Fucking Pigs!", it's time to start checking your watch and making your way for the door.

337 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:27:20pm

re: #306 Cato the Elder

Such caca, to quote Ionesco.

The ball was in Israel's court when they were challenged to give up the settlements in Gaza, which they did, using brute force against their own people to make a concession to the "Palestinians" and the world. They uprooted people from their homes and businesses, and gave the infrastructure intact to the Gazans. They shot that ball right over to the other side.

What was lobbed back? Rockets on Sderot.

How many times does Israel have to toss a ball to the other side before the other side actually starts playing the same game?

First and foremost, the settlements have not ceased, they have continued. And second, yes, the Palestinians have continued to be violent. But the question remains, what happens next? If a few glorified fireworks are enough to derail the peace process, what is the endgame? How long does Israel wish to maintain a fenced-off cordon around Gaza and the rest of the Palestinian territories? How long do they wish to keep the military checkpoints that cause such misery for the Palestinians? When does it all end? Never? Because that seems to be the alternative to Israel taking the lead in the peace process.

338 Yashmak  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:27:21pm

re: #330 Yashmak

Apparently, Bedell was a registered Democrat. It appears she has a link to some site which compiles voter registration records or some such thing.

By she, I meant Michelle Malkin. . .whose site I braved to check.

339 boredtechindenver  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:27:30pm

There was a request for filters last night. I don't down ding posts online, but I do keep a running tally in my mind and while I enjoy most posters, there are some who have crossed my internal line. For those posters, I use "pie filter".

FBV, this one is for you.

ps, no i am not cleek.

340 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:28:08pm

re: #331 Obdicut

Well, I'm saying that number of people is vanishingly small, and I think that the anarcho-socialists on the 'left' side of the spectrum are not at all endorsed by the establishment of the 'left' at all, wheareas the crazies on the right, like the Birchers are being cozied up to.

I also think there are a lot of anarcho-capitalists on the 'right' that have hatred for the military as the arm of the government as well.

I'm not saying this guy was on the left side of the political spectrum, just left on the libertarian spectrum. You're getting all wound up over the use of the word Left when I'm not meaning to label this guy a liberal or a dem. I never even hinted he was part of the left establishment. He was a libertarian which puts him firmly to the right of liberals if that makes you feel better.

341 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:28:16pm

re: #316 filetandrelease

Lvq
Just a personal note. Since our last chat where I basically said you were full of it for your dire predictions due to AGW if nothing is done, I have made the time for a little research on the matter. Combine that with the recent study Charles posted outlining the rapid release of methane gas from the ocean floor and clearly it would be unwise to simply dismiss reports such as yours that project the potential for billions of deaths.

My apologies for insulting your work.

This is a difficult issue for the layman because there are some many conflicting reports. Unfortunately the data clearly indicates an ominous trend.

I hope you are wrong but hence forth will take your positions regarding AGW and its potential consequences seriously.

On the other hand, if you bash us conservatives in general I will be calling in the flying monkeys.

Thank you very much and that is very fair. As far as AGW goes, I only ever ask that people look at the science itself. It speaks for itself quite clearly.

If I am talking science, I am talking science. I always try to distinguish my political views from the science itself. One of the biggest issues with AGW is that it has become political and that the people doing the denial, do so for political reasons.

If I am talking politics, my political opinions are surely my own and subject to be taken as just as valid or invalid as anyone else's. My bashing of conservatives is a little unfairly taken. I am very careful to distinguish between respectable conservative principles that I may or may not agree with, but can still respect, and the wingnut views that dominate so much of conservatism these days.

I would respectfully ask that you take that into account when I bash "conservatives." The conservatives of today, the ones who run the GOP would call you a RINO or worse for what you just wrote. I do not see them the same as you and you should not think I do.

342 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:28:25pm

re: #337 drcordell

First and foremost, the settlements have not ceased, they have continued. And second, yes, the Palestinians have continued to be violent. But the question remains, what happens next? If a few glorified fireworks are enough to derail the peace process, what is the endgame? How long does Israel wish to maintain a fenced-off cordon around Gaza and the rest of the Palestinian territories? How long do they wish to keep the military checkpoints that cause such misery for the Palestinians? When does it all end? Never? Because that seems to be the alternative to Israel taking the lead in the peace process.

There are no fucking settlements in Gaza.

343 solomonpanting  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:28:28pm

re: #299 drcordell

You disagree with that statement? That Israel is the party in control, and therefore the peace process lives or dies at their behest?

As someone once said, what do you think the different scenarios would be if:

A----Israel lay down its arms

OR

B--The Palestinians lay down its arms


If you choose A, one of the above will be eliminated.
If you choose B, there will be peace tomorrow.

344 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:28:33pm

re: #332 Spockista

I have never heard of a leftist wanting to pick up a gun and shoot at the Pentagon.

I have seen protests where leftist climbed over the Pentagon fences in protest.

And I see a lot of both the Pentagon and leftists.

You're getting caught up on the word "left" too.

345 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:29:25pm

Here's Bedell's wish list at Amazon.

Lots of conspiracy books, and lots of books about right wing causes and people.

Not a single book that could be classified as "left wing."

346 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:29:34pm

re: #311 RogueOne

You're right, I should't have made the blanket statement "all".

Just an example: Kokesh is a Paulian running for the Republican nomination for a congressional seat from NM. He was a member of Iraq Veterans Against the War.

347 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:29:41pm

re: #336 cliffster

Generally speaking, if you start hearing exclamations of, "Fucking Pigs!", it's time to start checking your watch and making your way for the door.

My best friend is a cop and everytime he calls to ask what I'm up to I tell him to "get a fuckin' warrant pig!".

348 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:29:43pm

re: #291 LudwigVanQuixote

Hitler believed he was a virtuous hero. Evil people almost always think they are the actually the good guys. The fact that people are good at rationalizing does not make their actions less evil or their real motives more pure.

Hitler was evil primarily because he advocated and ordered mass murder. Beck has not (yet).
The insanity defence would probably have been available to Hitler if he did not appreciate the nature and quality of his actions. The insanity defence would also be available to Beck as a fall-back position.

349 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:30:18pm

re: #337 drcordell

First and foremost, the settlements have not ceased, they have continued. And second, yes, the Palestinians have continued to be violent. But the question remains, what happens next? If a few glorified fireworks are enough to derail the peace process, what is the endgame? How long does Israel wish to maintain a fenced-off cordon around Gaza and the rest of the Palestinian territories? How long do they wish to keep the military checkpoints that cause such misery for the Palestinians? When does it all end? Never? Because that seems to be the alternative to Israel taking the lead in the peace process.

And fuck you for the "glorified fireworks" remark. You reveal yourself as a barking moonbat. Like my brother.

And fuck the "peace process", for that matter. It takes two, and one side ain't interested.

350 Yashmak  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:30:24pm

re: #343 solomonpanting

As someone once said, what do you think the different scenarios would be if:

A---Israel lay down its arms

OR

B--The Palestinians lay down its arms


If you choose A, one of the above will be eliminated.
If you choose B, there will be peace tomorrow.

Well said. Lileks once did a lengthy screed which could have been summed up just like that.

351 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:30:28pm

re: #329 Cato the Elder

Wrong. Simply wrong.

Criterion - criteria.
Millennium - millennia.
Phenomenon - phenomena.

Latin and Greek nouns that end in -um or -on in the singular virtually always take the plural in -a.

If "phenomena" were a singular noun (which it never is), "phenomenae" would be correct as the plural (it's not).

I gave up on the NYT as a style guide when they started using the word "millenniums". What's next? "Phenomenons"?

You don't parse Latin with Cato, and Cato won't piss on your science. Hmmkay?

;^)

Hey I asked it as a question! Well the phenomenae part. I accept your ruling though. It has been years since I was beaten by the headmaster when conjugating verbs in Latin.

I do stick to the point that phenomena even though it is not a correct usage gets used as singular by many folks - and I ma not certain when an "incorrect" usage gets common enough to become the usage.

352 shiplord kirel  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:30:35pm

re: #328 Dark_Falcon

Charles doesn't have an uncommon first or last name. There's likely 20 or more Charles Johnsons in this country. Charles is, however, the best man of the lot.

One of them was none other than the long-time president of the International Flat Earth Society, the late Charles K. Johnson.

I met Mr. Johnson while I was mayor of, er, a certain small town in the California desert. He was a charming and completely sincere man, though obviously inflexible in his adherence to a wildly absurd position.

353 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:30:43pm

re: #346 wrenchwench

Just an example: Kokesh is a Paulian running for the Republican nomination for a congressional seat from NM. He was a member of Iraq Veterans Against the War.

Unless you're suggesting he hates people in uniform then he fits in with what I've been saying.

354 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:31:03pm

re: #344 RogueOne

I've spent my time in college hanging out with socialists and anarchists, the far left. They were all overwhelmingly dedicated to pacifism and non-violence.

355 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:31:15pm

re: #349 Cato the Elder

And fuck you for the "glorified fireworks" remark. You reveal yourself as a barking moonbat. Like my brother.

And fuck the "peace process", for that matter. It takes two, and one side ain't interested.

People were killed by your fucking fireworks.

356 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:31:27pm

re: #334 Obdicut

I think comparing irresponsible speech endorsing violence and that endorsing 'bloated government' is ill-advised.

Do you feel like the GOP should take any action in reference to Michelle Bachmann of the crazy-eyes? Anything at all?

In the end, I look at the two about in the same light, whether one thinks it's ill-advised or not. One is just more dramatic than the other. They are both a threat to our way of life. A heart attack may be more dramatic than cancer, but both can kill you over time.

As for Michelle Bachmann, I don't know why such a big deal is made about her. I don't really pay that much attention to her. I am much more interested in the issues, not the players.

357 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:31:29pm

re: #340 RogueOne

No, our disagreement is more fundamental, and probably more academic. I don't agree that you can say libertarians are more to the 'right' of liberals. The only way I find the 'right/left' scale to be useful is in terms of the political parties and their embrace of groups. Cap-and-trade used to be a 'right-wing' position, now it's a 'left-wing' position.

I'm having trouble expressing myself on this, so apologies, but I don't think I can make myself any clearer.

358 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:31:29pm

re: #344 RogueOne

You're getting caught up on the word "left" too.

If Bedell's economic policies mean anything to anyone, he was a rightwing capitalist.

I would say the guy is a third positionist but maybe sans the racism

359 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:31:45pm

re: #354 Conservative Moonbat

I've spent my time in college hanging out with socialists and anarchists, the far left. They were all overwhelmingly dedicated to pacifism and non-violence.

I know one serious anarchist and he fits in with your description.

360 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:31:57pm

re: #342 Cato the Elder

There are no fucking settlements in Gaza.

There are no settlements in Gaza. But they continue in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Despite protestations from the international community and the U.S.

361 Yashmak  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:32:02pm

re: #345 Charles

Here's Bedell's wish list at Amazon.

Lots of conspiracy books, and lots of books about right wing causes and people.

Not a single book that could be classified as "left wing."


That list says it's for a Karen Bedell, his wife maybe?

362 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:32:03pm

re: #351 LudwigVanQuixote

Hey I asked it as a question! Well the phenomenae part. I accept your ruling though. It has been years since I was beaten by the headmaster when conjugating verbs in Latin.

I do stick to the point that phenomena even though it is not a correct usage gets used as singular by many folks - and I ma not certain when an "incorrect" usage gets common enough to become the usage.

Evil has no messenger, in grammar as in all other things. ;^)

363 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:32:06pm

re: #245 LudwigVanQuixote

I stand corrected. That was bad.

364 webevintage  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:32:42pm

Dear God, when will somere: #338 Yashmak

By she, I meant Michelle Malkin. . .whose site I braved to check.

I wonder if she will be going to his house soon to check what type of counters he had in his kitchen and harassing his wife and kids (if he had any).

365 sffilk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:32:49pm

re: #318 Aceofwhat?

Well...if you mean that they could just wipe them out, then i guess i concede that point. Fortunately, Israel holds herself to a higher standard than her enemies.

And because Israel does, and because the world expects Israel to do so, her enemies get away with murder and when Israel strikes back..........

366 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:33:27pm

re: #360 drcordell

There are no settlements in Gaza. But they continue in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Despite protestations from the international community and the U.S.

And if Israel gave up all the settlements tonight, the result would be the same as in Gaza. No fucking peace.

Fuck you.

367 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:33:32pm

re: #334 Obdicut

I don't think the terms 'left' and 'right' are ever really that accurate, but in so far as they are, I stand by what I said.

I think comparing irresponsible speech endorsing violence and that endorsing 'bloated government' is ill-advised.

Do you feel like the GOP should take any action in reference to Michelle Bachmann of the crazy-eyes? Anything at all?

Would you really cahracerize Bachmann's "armed and dangerous" as irresponsible speech endorsing violence?

Follow-up: If the State is itself organized violence, isn't the expansion of its reach itself an endorsement of the expansion of that violence? (Devil's Advocate)re: #345 Charles

Here's Bedell's wish list at Amazon.

Lots of conspiracy books, and lots of books about right wing causes and people.

Not a single book that could be classified as "left wing."

Mafia, CIA & Bush
The Bush Crime Family Exposed
Family of Secrets: The Bush Dynasty
Spider's Web: The Secret History of how the White House Illegally Armed Iraq


The Trial of Henry Kissinger

368 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:33:55pm

re: #357 Obdicut

No, our disagreement is more fundamental, and probably more academic. I don't agree that you can say libertarians are more to the 'right' of liberals. The only way I find the 'right/left' scale to be useful is in terms of the political parties and their embrace of groups. Cap-and-trade used to be a 'right-wing' position, now it's a 'left-wing' position.

I'm having trouble expressing myself on this, so apologies, but I don't think I can make myself any clearer.

I think most libertarians are almost always to the right of liberals and some even further right than republicans. Maybe we should get rid of the left/right idea and come up with a better way to describe the whole spectrum.

369 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:33:56pm

re: #347 RogueOne

My best friend is a cop and everytime he calls to ask what I'm up to I tell him to "get a fuckin' warrant pig!".

I bet that just NEVER gets old

370 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:34:06pm

re: #353 RogueOne

Unless you're suggesting he hates people in uniform then he fits in with what I've been saying.

Well, I don't think he hates people in uniform, but I do think he's anti-military. I missed the shift in the discussion. Sorry.

371 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:34:51pm

re: #349 Cato the Elder

And fuck you for the "glorified fireworks" remark. You reveal yourself as a barking moonbat. Like my brother.

And fuck the "peace process", for that matter. It takes two, and one side ain't interested.

So what would you have Israel do? What is your solution to the problem? Simply continue the way things are currently? Indefinitely?

372 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:35:08pm

re: #367 Guanxi88

Mafia, CIA & Bush
The Bush Crime Family Exposed
Family of Secrets: The Bush Dynasty
Spider's Web: The Secret History of how the White House Illegally Armed Iraq

The Trial of Henry Kissinger

Are you seriously going to pretend you don't know that there is plenty of Bush-hatred on the extreme right?

373 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:35:13pm

re: #369 cliffster

I bet that just NEVER gets old

Not for me it doesn't and that's all that matters, right? He's a hell of a man and a good cop with a very good sense of humor.

374 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:35:20pm

re: #348 Spare O'Lake

Hitler was evil primarily because he advocated and ordered mass murder. Beck has not (yet).
The insanity defence would probably have been available to Hitler if he did not appreciate the nature and quality of his actions. The insanity defence would also be available to Beck as a fall-back position.

That is a legal quibble based on American law as a substitute for a question of ethics.

Either the person has been doing evil and judging it a good thing to do or not.

I can accept that a true case of insanity to the extent that the person involved can no longer distinguish reality from hallucination at the time of the act, offers an ethical wrinkle but as a general rule, when people try to hide their crimes or avoid responsibility for them, it is a sure sign that they understand that what they did was evil.

375 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:35:45pm

re: #372 Charles

Are you seriously going to pretend you don't know that there is plenty of Bush-hatred on the extreme right?

Not at all. Just picking out some titles.

The Kissinger thing's a bit of a shock, but you see Hitch everywhere.

376 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:35:49pm

re: #361 Yashmak

That list says it's for a Karen Bedell, his wife maybe?

I think I read that the guy was in his 30's and lived with his parents in California. Somebody needs to be having a look under his bed and having a long talk with his folks.

377 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:35:50pm

re: #367 Guanxi88

Mafia, CIA & Bush
The Bush Crime Family Exposed
Family of Secrets: The Bush Dynasty
Spider's Web: The Secret History of how the White House Illegally Armed Iraq

The Trial of Henry Kissinger

The Simpsons first season!

378 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:35:58pm

re: #360 drcordell

There are no settlements in Gaza. But they continue in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Despite protestations from the international community and the U.S.

So Israel has no rights to Hebron? Where Jews lived for thousands of years, only to be expelled by a murderous Arab pogrom in the 1920's. Are you saying that the Arabs should be allowed to keep what the only gained by outright murder?

379 Yashmak  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:36:33pm

re: #345 Charles

Here's Bedell's wish list at Amazon.

Lots of conspiracy books, and lots of books about right wing causes and people.

Not a single book that could be classified as "left wing."

Then again, they don't really qualify as "right wing" either. Instead, most seem to fall into the "conspiracy loon" category. I mean, there's even a book on UFO's mixed in with the other Truther and (wierdly) economics books.

380 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:36:40pm

Apparently there were warning signs that were missed in the Pentagon shooter case. The parents had alerted authorities that their son was unstable and might do something bad.

San Benito County Sheriff Curtis Hill told the AP the parents of John Patrick Bedell filed a missing persons report and were worried about his mental stability. After reading an e-mail from their son to an acquaintance, the parents told deputies they were worried that he had purchased a gun.

Hill said that Bedell has been on the department's radar since 2003, when deputies found him walking along the side of the road. They wrote him up as a "5150" -- police code for crazy -- and took him to his parents house.

Hill said that Bedell, 36, has been at in-patient mental health institutions at least four times.

The parents reported Bedell missing on Jan. 4, one day after a Texas Highway Patrol officer stopped him for speeding in Amarillo, according to the missing person's report. Bedell told the highway patrolman he was heading for the East Coast, and the officer used Bedell's phones to call his mother, Kaye Bedell, because he seemed disheveled and out of sorts.

Once again, one has to wonder about the gun laws and whether those deemed mentally ill are allowed to obtain the guns (shades of the VA Tech case where the gunman in that case was mentally ill as well, and yet managed to get his hands on multiple weapons).

381 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:37:03pm

re: #373 RogueOne

Not for me it doesn't and that's all that matters, right? He's a hell of a man and a good cop with a very good sense of humor.

Him and his colleagues around the country. Buy him a beer or a plate of wings for me next time you see him.

382 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:37:23pm

re: #366 Cato the Elder

And if Israel gave up all the settlements tonight, the result would be the same as in Gaza. No fucking peace.

Fuck you.

So you acknowledge that the settlements continue? Glad we cleared that up. And my how quick you are to start lobbing personal attacks when the debate heats up.

383 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:37:34pm

re: #375 Guanxi88

Not at all. Just picking out some titles.

The Kissinger thing's a bit of a shock, but you see Hitch everywhere.

There's nothing "left wing" about the books you picked out, sorry.

384 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:37:47pm

re: #363 marjoriemoon

I stand corrected. That was bad.

Oh believe me, we are not in competition. I am sure that what happened with you sucked too.

385 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:37:59pm

re: #380 lawhawk

Apparently there were warning signs that were missed in the Pentagon shooter case. The parents had alerted authorities that their son was unstable and might do something bad.

Once again, one has to wonder about the gun laws and whether those deemed mentally ill are allowed to obtain the guns (shades of the VA Tech case where the gunman in that case was mentally ill as well, and yet managed to get his hands on multiple weapons).

So the wuestion is:

Did being crazy turn him into a rightwinger, or did being a rightwinger make him crazy, or what? "cause, the room's pretty sure he's primarily a rightist, the mental illness thing being largely unimportant.

386 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:38:17pm

re: #379 Yashmak

Then again, they don't really qualify as "right wing" either. Instead, most seem to fall into the "conspiracy loon" category. I mean, there's even a book on UFO's mixed in with the other Truther and (wierdly) economics books.


The economics books are the right wing libertarian element.

387 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:38:24pm

re: #383 Charles

There's nothing "left wing" about the books you picked out, sorry.

I hadn't recalled a ton of hatred for the Bush family in the GOP.

388 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:38:43pm

re: #272 Spockista

we just finished the last of the chocolate babka and rainbow cookies in the house!

Black and white cookies only last bout an hour.

I haven't had a babka in forever. Sometime for our bosses lunch, they order rugalah (?) Also so very yummy.

389 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:38:55pm

re: #362 Cato the Elder

Evil has no messenger, in grammar as in all other things. ;^)

Dude that was evil. :)

390 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:39:15pm

re: #356 cliffster

I'm sorry, but saying you don't really pay attention to someone making wildly dangerous statements, who is an elected member of the GOP, who are the 'right wing' in the US, is just baffling in the context of this conversation. If you honestly don't think there's reason to pay attention to crazy-ass statements by sitting senators, then we really disagree in very serious ways.

And again, I think blithely saying that advocating bloated government (highly subjective) is as dangerous as advocating violence is unwise.

391 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:39:18pm

re: #371 drcordell

So what would you have Israel do? What is your solution to the problem? Simply continue the way things are currently? Indefinitely?

The only thing for Israel to do is to keep defending herself until the Arabs are ready to actually talk peace sincerely, and that day may not come in our lifetimes. For the present time peace is impossible, because too many Palis are devotees of an Islamic death cult. Until that changes, there can be no peace.

392 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:39:28pm

re: #379 Yashmak

Then again, they don't really qualify as "right wing" either. Instead, most seem to fall into the "conspiracy loon" category. I mean, there's even a book on UFO's mixed in with the other Truther and (wierdly) economics books.

I see quite a few books in there that definitely do qualify as "right wing." Books on Averell Harriman, and Barry Goldwater, for example. John Wayne. Edward Lansdale. All right wing figures.

393 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:40:07pm

re: #388 marjoriemoon

I haven't had a babka in forever. Sometime for our bosses lunch, they order rugalah (?) Also so very yummy.

Now my mouth is in full watering mode. Pavlov eat your heart out. And Alouette, if your girl can make good rugulach, I will woe her seriously :)

394 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:40:11pm

re: #385 Guanxi88

Did being crazy turn him into a rightwinger, or did being a rightwinger make him crazy, or what? "cause, the room's pretty sure he's primarily a rightist, the mental illness thing being largely unimportant.


He was highly intelligent but insane. I don't think his drug use helped matters any.

395 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:40:18pm

re: #367 Guanxi88

I'm really not interested in semantic games at the moment. I'm perfectly fine with your admission that your original statement was incorrect.

396 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:40:33pm

re: #378 Dark_Falcon

So Israel has no rights to Hebron? Where Jews lived for thousands of years, only to be expelled by a murderous Arab pogrom in the 1920's. Are you saying that the Arabs should be allowed to keep what the only gained by outright murder?

If you're going to play the "who was here first" game you're going to get nowhere. It's a stupid argument. We need to focus on the current situation.

397 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:40:36pm

re: #392 Charles

I see quite a few books in there that definitely do qualify as "right wing." Books on Averell Harriman, and Barry Goldwater, for example. John Wayne. Edward Lansdale. All right wing figures.

Goldwater's a rightwinger? I'd sorta pegged him as a rightist conservative, and recall that at least one well-respected former President said Goldwater's what got him into politics.

398 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:40:43pm

re: #393 LudwigVanQuixote

Now my mouth is in full watering mode. Pavlov eat your heart out. And Alouette, if your girl can make good rugulach, I will woe her seriously :)

PIMF BUT HILLARIOUS PIMF!

woo her seriously.. WOOO!

399 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:40:47pm

re: #380 lawhawk

Apparently there were warning signs that were missed in the Pentagon shooter case. The parents had alerted authorities that their son was unstable and might do something bad.

Once again, one has to wonder about the gun laws and whether those deemed mentally ill are allowed to obtain the guns (shades of the VA Tech case where the gunman in that case was mentally ill as well, and yet managed to get his hands on multiple weapons).

I get a little touchy about this. I'm bipolar and I don't like the idea of being excluded from the bill of rights because of my DNA. I'd never hurt a fly.

400 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:40:57pm

re: #395 Obdicut

I'm really not interested in semantic games at the moment. I'm perfectly fine with your admission that your original statement was incorrect.

As long as you're happy.

401 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:41:11pm

re: #391 Dark_Falcon

I wish you would assign more responsibility to the actions of Arab States in continuing the conflict for their own political ends, and less to a portrayal of Islam as a death cult.

I also want them to bring back Firefly, though.

402 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:41:23pm

re: #387 Guanxi88

I hadn't recalled a ton of hatred for the Bush family in the GOP.

The GOP was in power at the time. The party in power typically keeps its crazy wing out of sight. When they leave power, the crazies let their freak flags fly.

403 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:41:59pm

re: #402 Dark_Falcon

The GOP was in power at the time. The party in power typically keeps its crazy wing out of sight. When they leave power, the crazies let their freak flags fly.

May be something too that.

404 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:42:09pm

re: #391 Dark_Falcon

The only thing for Israel to do is to keep defending herself until the Arabs are ready to actually talk peace sincerely, and that day may not come in our lifetimes. For the present time peace is impossible, because too many Palis are devotees of an Islamic death cult. Until that changes, there can be no peace.

So you are effectively saying that in this Mexican standoff, it's up to the Palestinians to put their gun down first. And until that happens there will be no progress, and Israel will be forced to continue to occupy the West Bank indefinitely?

405 Yashmak  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:42:15pm

re: #386 Killgore Trout

The economics books are the right wing libertarian element.

Hmm. . .I just don't see it. Many of those economics selections appear to be more along the line of educational texts rather than opinion or agenda driven pieces. But that's just appearances. I can't claim to have read them. Just saying, I don't think his interest in the way the markets or economy works necessarily means he has libertarian tendencies.

I think everyone here is trying really hard to push the opinion that he was either a left winger, or right winger, or some such thing, but there's no clear evidence EITHER WAY.

The only thing that's clear, is that the guy was a conspiracy loon.

406 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:42:21pm

re: #397 Guanxi88

Goldwater's a rightwinger? I'd sorta pegged him as a rightist conservative, and recall that at least one well-respected former President said Goldwater's what got him into politics.

Wow. Now you're going to argue that even Barry Goldwater wasn't "right wing?"

OK, I think I'm done discussing this with you.

407 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:42:26pm

re: #382 drcordell

So you acknowledge that the settlements continue? Glad we cleared that up. And my how quick you are to start lobbing personal attacks when the debate heats up.

I lob personal attacks when people betray themselves as Vollidioten.

408 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:43:09pm

re: #402 Dark_Falcon

I'd say hatred for McCain, for example, these days, is also mostly on the right-wing. A lot of people on the 'left' are very disappointed in his shift to the right, but I think that far more virulence is coming at him from the right.

409 Buck  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:43:19pm

re: #380 lawhawk

Apparently there were warning signs that were missed in the Pentagon shooter case. The parents had alerted authorities that their son was unstable and might do something bad.

So what you are saying is that the Obama Administration had advanced knowledge of this attack.....

/s

410 sattv4u2  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:43:43pm

re: #404 drcordell

So you are effectively saying that in this Mexican standoff, it's up to the Palestinians to put their gun down first. And until that happens there will be no progress, and Israel will be forced to continue to occupy the West Bank indefinitely?

Perhaps the 1st resonable step would be not "to put their guns down first", but at the very least recognize the State Of Israel as legit!

411 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:44:01pm

re: #406 Charles

Wow. Now you're going to argue that even Barry Goldwater wasn't "right wing?"

OK, I think I'm done discussing this with you.

I never denied he was a rightist, but it was my impression that linguistic norms here had made "rightwinger" more or less synonymous with the worst, most retrograde of opinions and belief systems to the right of, say, maoism or leninism.

412 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:44:08pm

re: #401 Obdicut

I wish you would assign more responsibility to the actions of Arab States in continuing the conflict for their own political ends, and less to a portrayal of Islam as a death cult.

I also want them to bring back Firefly, though.

To clarify, Islam in general is not a death cult. However, the radical jihadi variant of Islam pushed by Hamas is a death cult, glorifying suicide bombing and the murder of civilians.

413 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:44:19pm

re: #387 Guanxi88

I hadn't recalled a ton of hatred for the Bush family in the GOP.

Glenn Beck, Alex Jones and the Birch Society consider Bush to be part of the progress plot to destroy America. Bush is hated among the Tea Party folks and Paulians.

414 sffilk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:44:23pm

re: #404 drcordell

So you are effectively saying that in this Mexican standoff, it's up to the Palestinians to put their gun down first. And until that happens there will be no progress, and Israel will be forced to continue to occupy the West Bank indefinitely?

I'd have to say yes, because once the Palestinians put down their guns, and Israel is sure they won't pick them up and start shooting, then Israel will happily put down its guns and try to talk peace (saying "try to" because I'm not sure the Palestinian Arabs want to live with the Jews there).

415 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:45:39pm

re: #279 Spockista

No, Chomsky is an anarchist. It's a form of leftism who is against authority but pro-collectivism and equal rights.

I don't know enough about Chomsky politics. I just always assumed far left. Being a self-hater is all I need to know and never looked further.

Anarchy has always been a head scratcher to me because if such a society actually existed, it would take them about 5 minutes to start bossing each other around.

416 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:45:47pm

re: #401 Obdicut

I wish you would assign more responsibility to the actions of Arab States in continuing the conflict for their own political ends, and less to a portrayal of Islam as a death cult.

I also want them to bring back Firefly, though.

Firefly is one of my all time three fav SF shows. Between that B% and the new BSG, it depends on the hour which one I say is the best ever.

417 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:46:24pm

re: #396 drcordell

And the current situation shows that Israel has no partner for peace. Hamas and Fatah both still seek nothing less than Israel's destruction. They differ only on the timeframe and manner - Hamas now, Fatah later.

Why can't you seem to understand that without a partner in peace among the Palestinians, Israel can't do anything other than maintain its own security?

The Palestinians had a chance for peace in 2000. They skipped it to launch another Intifada.

They had another chance with the disengagement from Gaza in 2005. They chose a rocket war.

The Israelis have tried negotiating peace and gotten nowhere. They've tried unilaterally withdrawing for territory and gotten war and death and misery for those in rocket range.

They had an opportunity when Arafat died and a new generation of leaders could choose a different path; they ended up with a Holocaust denier leading Fatah and the PA (Abbas). Elections among the Palestinians ended up with Hamas winning in Gaza and a majority of all Palestinians - and they wanted war against Israel and a less corrupt leadership than Fatah was able to provide. After Hamas' takeover - they're just as corrupt, but they are responsible for what goes on in Gaza.

Each time there's an opportunity for Palestinians to choose peace - or even the path to peace, they've gone down the other path. It's pathological - and it isn't Israel's fault. Hamas and Fatah simply don't want Israel to exist and dealing on those terms makes it impossible for there to be a lasting and just peace.

Hudnas are possible, and that's the situation we're in now.

418 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:46:43pm

re: #413 Killgore Trout

Glenn Beck, Alex Jones and the Birch Society consider Bush to be part of the progress plot to destroy America. Bush is hated among the Tea Party folks and Paulians.

Alex Jones is one of your barometers of the GOP and the Right? You might want to ask him about that, 'cause he thinks himself "beyond the left-right paradigm" altogether.

The Birchers? I thought their ascent began after the election of Obama, by tapping intot he latent racism of the right. Who knew their power went back so far?

419 Buck  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:46:53pm

re: #337 drcordell

If a few glorified fireworks are enough to derail the peace process, what is the endgame?

Are you talking about missiles / rockets and mortars fired on civilian homes and schools?

Please be REALLY REALLY clear....

420 Yashmak  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:46:59pm

re: #392 Charles

I see quite a few books in there that definitely do qualify as "right wing." Books on Averell Harriman, and Barry Goldwater, for example. John Wayne. Edward Lansdale. All right wing figures.

Yeah, but as an example, the book on Goldwater is titled "Glorious Disaster", so it may not be a PRO Goldwater book (again, I don't claim to know for sure, having not read it).

421 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:47:00pm

re: #407 Cato the Elder

I lob personal attacks when people betray themselves as Vollidioten.

Same to you buddy. I'm the one who is actually focused on the real world, while you're off in fantasy land. You think that the Palestinians are going to unilaterally disarm? Fucking forget about it. How naive are you?

I'm trying to talk real world solutions here. Because I don't want to see Israel bogged down in this clusterfuck for the rest of my life. Your solution is a pipe dream. "Well, maybe if we keep allowing settlements in the West Bank and continue to isolate Gaza the Palestinians will come around!" It's never going to fucking happen. Just because Israel has the moral imperative her side, does not mean that the situation will magically resolve itself. But apparently that's what you seem to believe.

422 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:47:28pm

re: #390 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but saying you don't really pay attention to someone making wildly dangerous statements, who is an elected member of the GOP, who are the 'right wing' in the US, is just baffling in the context of this conversation. If you honestly don't think there's reason to pay attention to crazy-ass statements by sitting senators, then we really disagree in very serious ways.

And again, I think blithely saying that advocating bloated government (highly subjective) is as dangerous as advocating violence is unwise.

I think "wildly dangerous" is silly. We obviously differ on what we consider dangerous. Sorry to disappoint you that I'm not more obsessed with Bachmann..

423 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:47:33pm

re: #420 Yashmak

Yeah, but as an example, the book on Goldwater is titled "Glorious Disaster", so it may not be a PRO Goldwater book (again, I don't claim to know for sure, having not read it).

The hell with it; John Wayne's in there - that's all you need to know about the guy.

424 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:47:51pm

re: #404 drcordell

So you are effectively saying that in this Mexican standoff, it's up to the Palestinians to put their gun down first. And until that happens there will be no progress, and Israel will be forced to continue to occupy the West Bank indefinitely?

Israel has offered good faith negotiations more times than can be counted, only to be greeted by double-talk and terrorism. Things will continue as they are until the Palis are willing to act in good faith and make compromises. They will have to give up some things they want, the so-called "right-of-return" begin the chief such thing.

425 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:47:53pm

re: #410 sattv4u2

Perhaps the 1st resonable step would be not "to put their guns down first", but at the very least recognize the State Of Israel as legit!

Tell that to a Palestinian, and they will tell you the exact same thing. We'll recognize Israel when they recognize Palestine. It's just another pissing match.

426 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:47:56pm

re: #416 LudwigVanQuixote

Firefly: a show about real family values.

And Morena Baccarin is teh hawt.

427 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:48:09pm

re: #284 Conservative Moonbat

They are more like anarchists. Non-authoritarian socialists.

I will think on this some more. I promise!

428 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:48:25pm

re: #415 marjoriemoon

I don't know enough about Chomsky politics. I just always assumed far left. Being a self-hater is all I need to know and never looked further.

Anarchy has always been a head scratcher to me because if such a society actually existed, it would take them about 5 minutes to start bossing each other around.

Chomsky has appeared as a Jew on Hezzballah tv denouncing Israel and claiming it should not exist as a state.

Those who say that he is an anarchist in the technical classification of his views are correct. However, his actions and words there alone are sufficient for me.

Some of my friends joke that it is good that Chomsky never goes to physics conferences at MIT. Were we in the same room I would likely punch him.

429 Buck  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:48:27pm

re: #415 marjoriemoon

Anarchy has always been a head scratcher to me because if such a society actually existed, it would take them about 5 minutes to start bossing each other around.

You are right.... just try and be a little late to the meetings.... boy do they get pissed.

/joke

430 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:48:57pm

re: #346 wrenchwench

Just an example: Kokesh is a Paulian running for the Republican nomination for a congressional seat from NM. He was a member of Iraq Veterans Against the War.

Kokesh is a media whore/opportunist/dirtbag who used his vet status to get attention in the anti-war movement.

From the first time I saw and met the guy I knew he was in it to run for office.

IVAW has always a suspicious group and when they went Paultard the left should have kicked them to to curb.

431 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:49:42pm

re: #421 drcordell

Go Away Gordon.

432 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:49:42pm

re: #420 Yashmak

Yeah, but as an example, the book on Goldwater is titled "Glorious Disaster", so it may not be a PRO Goldwater book (again, I don't claim to know for sure, having not read it).

It's definitely a pro-Goldwater book:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

433 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:49:52pm

re: #418 Guanxi88

Alex Jones is one of your barometers of the GOP and the Right? You might want to ask him about that, 'cause he thinks himself "beyond the left-right paradigm" altogether.

Heh. Circular logic, anyone?

434 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:50:49pm

re: #424 Dark_Falcon

Israel has offered good faith negotiations more times than can be counted, only to be greeted by double-talk and terrorism. Things will continue as they are until the Palis are willing to act in good faith and make compromises. They will have to give up some things they want, the so-called "right-of-return" begin the chief such thing.

Well, the Palestinians will be loathe to sacrifice that, and you know it.

435 Yashmak  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:50:50pm

re: #392 Charles

The hell with it; John Wayne's in there - that's all you need to know about the guy.

If you say so, my mom and brother have always loved John Wayne, and yet have always voted Democrat. . .

I on the other hand, have always voted conservative and can't STAND John Wayne. Maybe my family is just weird.

436 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:50:56pm

re: #426 Cato the Elder

Firefly: a show about real family values.

And Morena Baccarin is teh hawt.

She is gorgeous, but if I had to choose one, I would take home Kaylee.

I am a sucker for sweetheart techie girls :) Not to mention red heads...

437 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:51:56pm

re: #412 Dark_Falcon

Thanks, DF. That does help, enormously.

I still think a lot of the reason for the awfulness of Palestine is politically motivated from other Arab states, and less religiously motivated, but that's just a 'how much of each' disagreement. Thanks.

438 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:52:07pm

re: #431 Dark_Falcon

Go Away Gordon.

Gordon?

439 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:52:10pm

re: #287 Spockista

Rightwing libertarianism and leftwing libertarianism are pretty different.

Rightwing libertarians want the freedom to exploit the poor, be racist, and oppress while leftwing libertarians want freedom from all of the above.

It can get complicated.

I am a Libertarian Socialist aka Anarchist.

No I don't wear a black hoodie and break windows. But, if you read Emma Goldman or Alexander Berkman you will understand.

Oh! An anarchist in our midst! Welcome! lol

I don't have a lot of time now, but I may pick your brain later :)

440 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:52:44pm

re: #418 Guanxi88

Alex Jones is one of your barometers of the GOP and the Right? You might want to ask him about that, 'cause he thinks himself "beyond the left-right paradigm" altogether.

The Birchers? I thought their ascent began after the election of Obama, by tapping intot he latent racism of the right. Who knew their power went back so far?

So where have you been when I've been posting dozens of entries over the past year about the increasing acceptance of Alex Jones on the right? Just skipped over all of those posts?

441 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:53:17pm

re: #428 LudwigVanQuixote

I liked seeing him taken to pieces by Dennett. He's amazing in linguistics and information theory, and he was right about many criticisms of the US-- but only many. He's gone way too far way too often.

442 Yashmak  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:53:22pm

re: #432 Charles

It's definitely a pro-Goldwater book:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

Not to be needlessly argumentative, Charles, but a couple months back, if you'd looked at my Amazon wish list as a good indicator of who I am, you'd have thought me a crazed liberal sci-fi fan. Well, the sci-fi fan part is true.

If you looked now, you wouldn't think I had any interest in politics at all, only sci-fi.

443 sattv4u2  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:53:33pm

re: #425 drcordell

Tell that to a Palestinian, and they will tell you the exact same thing. We'll recognize Israel when they recognize Palestine. It's just another pissing match.

Yet there IS an Israel,,

Please show me where Palastine is, because I'll be damned if GOOGLE can find it (cept for a smallish Texas town !!)
[Link: maps.google.com...]

?

444 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:54:14pm

re: #426 Cato the Elder

Firefly: a show about real family values.

And Morena Baccarin is teh hawt.

I was trying to find the right statute when she cut her hair for V. Because it should have resulted in a fine and censure. Sigh.

445 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:54:15pm

re: #436 LudwigVanQuixote

She is gorgeous, but if I had to choose one, I would take home Kaylee.

I am a sucker for sweetheart techie girls :) Not to mention red heads...

Now, if she only had a tail.....

446 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:54:16pm

re: #407 Cato the Elder

I lob personal attacks when people betray themselves as Vollidioten.

Alert! Alert! Cato has dropped from Latin into German. Language family change. Alert! Alert!

:)

447 Buck  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:54:25pm

re: #440 Charles

So where have you been when I've been posting dozens of entries over the past year about the increasing acceptance of Alex Jones on the right? Just skipped over all of those posts?

Just like you showed the increasing acceptance of anti semitism on the left.

448 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:54:40pm

re: #422 cliffster

It's not being obsessed, it's that you said you just don't pay attention to her. There's a lot of room between 'obsessed' and 'ignoring'.

449 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:55:03pm

re: #439 marjoriemoon

Oh! An anarchist in our midst! Welcome! lol

I don't have a lot of time now, but I may pick your brain later :)

Sure, here is a good place for you to start!

[Link: dwardmac.pitzer.edu...]

450 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:55:16pm

Now I remember how my karma got to -2,500! By stating anything about the Israeli-Palestine conflict that doesn't toe the LGF orthodoxy. re: #443 sattv4u2

Yet there IS an Israel,,

Please show me where Palastine is, because I'll be damned if GOOGLE can find it (cept for a smallish Texas town !!)
[Link: maps.google.com...]

?

There is no Palestine right now. It's part of Israel. That is why so many people have died thus far. If you can't keep up with the conversation stay at the kids table please.

451 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:55:31pm

re: #423 Guanxi88

The hell with it; John Wayne's in there - that's all you need to know about the guy.

Heh. But on a lighter note, many years ago the sub was on deployment and it was time to start the nightly movie in the crew's mess.

Our captain's tradition was that he would only come into the mess deck on movie nights if he was invited by the crew. (Otherwise, they'd show their own movie in the wardroom.) He heard that we were planning to show Wayne's movie "Big Jake" and passed the word along that he'd be grateful for an invitation. Of course, we all said sure.

The CO came into crew's mess, got a big bowl of popcorn, plopped himself down on the deck between the tables and announced:

"Gentlemen, thanks very much for the invitation. I listen to Mozart and I read Dickens, but there's nothing finer than a John Wayne flick!"

;-)

452 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:56:00pm

re: #442 Yashmak

Not to be needlessly argumentative, Charles, but a couple months back, if you'd looked at my Amazon wish list as a good indicator of who I am, you'd have thought me a crazed liberal sci-fi fan. Well, the sci-fi fan part is true.

If you looked now, you wouldn't think I had any interest in politics at all, only sci-fi.

The wish list is just one more piece of evidence that this guy was absolutely not a "left winger." It's not conclusive in itself, but given his other statements on the record, it's clear that he was an extreme right wing anti-government libertarian.

453 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:56:07pm

re: #434 drcordell

No, they wouldn't want to give up that right - since it's part and parcel of the wipe out Israel by any means necessary meme that is essential to the Fatah and Hamas charters. The UN perpetrates and perpetuates the mess by granting refugee status to anyone born after the 1948 and 1967 wars - something not done in any other instance. It means millions would be considered refugees even if they were born in Cairo or Amman to parents who were born in Cairo or Amman but whose grandparents relocated following the 1948 or 1967 wars (forced or by choice). That's the definition of insanity - and the UN went along with this since that helps the Arab countries politically against Israel. Egypt and Jordan could have resettled those in the refugee camps in Gaza or West Bank, but consciously chose not to - perpetuating the problem.

Israel improved the situations in those camps while it was under Israel's control. Now that they're under PA or Hamas control - those camps are still there - because they don't want to resettle in Gaza but because they want Jerusalem and Haifa and Tel Aviv for themselves.

454 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:56:39pm

re: #440 Charles

So where have you been when I've been posting dozens of entries over the past year about the increasing acceptance of Alex Jones on the right? Just skipped over all of those posts?

Hey, I've been right here all along. Don't pull that selective recognition stuff with me! I've shared many a chuckle about the guy, and just as many concerns.

What I haven't done - and perhaps this is my error - is to claim he's a reliable barometer of conservative or rightist opinion in this country.

455 Yashmak  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:56:42pm

re: #450 drcordell


There is no Palestine right now. .

Has there ever been? I mean, as far back as you look, it was part of some other nation, not it's own nation.

456 Buck  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:56:53pm

re: #425 drcordell

Tell that to a Palestinian, and they will tell you the exact same thing. We'll recognize Israel when they recognize Palestine. It's just another pissing match.

So then removing all the jews from Gaza and stopping the occupation, should have brought some kind of recognition.

But it didn't.... only your so called fireworks (which BTW is you most disgusting comment so far)

457 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:57:10pm

re: #434 drcordell

Well, the Palestinians will be loathe to sacrifice that, and you know it.

well, we wouldn't want them to be LOATH to part with anything, or they would LOATHE us.

oh wait. they loathe us regardless. forgot.

458 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:57:42pm

re: #301 sffilk

No, it's because they don't make them down here the way they did/do in New York, that's why. And the Chabadnikim get their stuff from the glatt kosher bakery near where I live, and they don't do bagels like they did (I don't know if they still do) in New York City.

Could be the water. We have horrible water in S. Florida and therefore, horrible bagels.

459 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:57:48pm

re: #450 drcordell

To me, it's that you consistently just ignore the role of the other Arab states in the conflict, and its usefulness to them.

460 sattv4u2  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:58:33pm

re: #450 drcordell

Now I remember how my karma got to -2,500! By stating anything about the Israeli-Palestine conflict that doesn't toe the LGF orthodoxy.

There is no Palestine right now. It's part of Israel. That is why so many people have died thus far. If you can't keep up with the conversation stay at the kids table please.

Wasn't someone (you) just complaining a short while ago about
lobbing personal attacks" !?!?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

hmmmm

461 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:59:05pm

re: #438 drcordell

Gordon?

Gordon was an annoying left-of-center poster here a long while back. He got on people's nerves enough that Nekama sometimes used the phrase "Go Away Gordon" to tell him off. It's what I say to dismiss leftist posters who I feel are acting like moonbats.

462 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:59:06pm

re: #454 Guanxi88

Hey, I've been right here all along. Don't pull that selective recognition stuff with me! I've shared many a chuckle about the guy, and just as many concerns.

What I haven't done - and perhaps this is my error - is to claim he's a reliable barometer of conservative or rightist opinion in this country.

So, I got a downding because:

a) I haven't been here sharing concerns and giggles about AJ? or
b) I ought to regard him a reliable barometer of conservative opinion?

Which?

463 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:59:15pm

I'll try and sum this up one more time to try and get a solid answer out of my most vocal critics on this thread.

I recognize that the Palestinian violence is a major impediment to the peace process. I recognize that Israel feels it should not attempt to further the peace process until they receive some sort of guarantee that the violence will cease. Long term, where does this leave us?

Short of the Palestinians accepting Israel's conditions (disarmament, giving up right of return, potentially not having Jerusalem be a shared capitol) what is Israel's plan? If Palestinians choose not to accept these conditions, how much longer will Israel tolerate the status quo?

464 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:59:30pm

re: #392 Charles

I see quite a few books in there that definitely do qualify as "right wing." Books on Averell Harriman, and Barry Goldwater, for example. John Wayne. Edward Lansdale. All right wing figures.

I think attempts to tamp Bedell into one end or the other of the ideological or political spectrum are, to be blunt, disgusting. It's similar to complaints I've raised over the demonization of Cindy Sheehan as some sort of uber-Left-Wing zealot, when it's painfully obvious that she was, in fact, rather cruelly exploited by various groups and was using their canned talking points as a way to avoid grieving for her son; latching on to an external cause helped wall off that dark, horrible emptiness in her life. She could, just as easily, found distraction in hatred of Islam, or in any of a hundred other pursuits, but picked the one that was handy. It's difficult, in the end, to see Sheehan as either representative of the Left, or as a product of it. Leftist ideology is simply a crutch that aids her in avoiding her grief.

I have no idea what motivated Bedell, what void he was trying to fill, or avoid, or escape. But after reading through several of his Internet rants and ramblings, it is obvious that this was an individual with deep mental problems. Like Sheehan, I suspect he found distraction from whatever darkness plagued his being in his reading, fascination with conspiracy theories and bizarre economic theories. But I also suspect that he, like Sheehan, was neither a product of those pursuits nor representative of them, but was using them to fend off some deeper, inner horror he felt incapable of facing.

465 Yashmak  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 12:59:36pm

re: #452 Charles

The wish list is just one more piece of evidence that this guy was absolutely not a "left winger." It's not conclusive in itself, but given his other statements on the record, it's clear that he was an extreme right wing anti-government libertarian.

I'd totally agree that he wasn't a left winger. . .but based on his being registered democrat, combined with his Bush hatred (although I know that's shared by many on the right too), I just can't get as far as categorizing him as extreme right wing. He seems to me to have been an extremely conflicted individual, with some aspects of BOTH extremes, which probably had something to do with his going off the deep end.

466 Buck  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:00:12pm

re: #161 Obdicut

So, uh, they got deleted, huh?

How is that 'welcoming them with open arms'?

At first they were welcomed, and then later it became radio active, so they were deleted.

At one point it was incredibly popular on the left to be a truther...including many leaders of the left.

467 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:00:27pm

re: #450 drcordell

The down-ding was for the "I get hassled for not toeing the orthodoxy of the site" line.

Hold your own on the basis of facts and logic. (That the politics in the Middle East are highly illogical at times is a major obstacle.) Dropping back to a statement that's essentially a whine doesn't help your position, and I doubt it will draw much sympathy either.

468 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:00:31pm

re: #465 Yashmak

I'd totally agree that he wasn't a left winger. . .but based on his being registered democrat, combined with his Bush hatred (although I know that's shared by many on the right too), I just can't get as far as categorizing him as extreme right wing. He seems to me to have been an extremely conflicted individual, with some aspects of BOTH extremes, which probably had something to do with his going off the deep end.

Hey, he committed violence - he's a rightist, presumptively.. Add evidence of bizarre beliefs, and what else could he be?

Am I right, folks?

469 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:01:05pm

re: #466 Buck

Please name some 'leaders of the left' who were truthers. You said "many", so I would like to see a good selection.

470 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:01:23pm

re: #397 Guanxi88

Goldwater's a rightwinger? I'd sorta pegged him as a rightist conservative, and recall that at least one well-respected former President said Goldwater's what got him into politics.

Goldwater would likely have no part with what's labeled as "the Right Wing" today.

471 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:01:47pm

re: #465 Yashmak

I'd totally agree that he wasn't a left winger. . .but based on his being registered democrat, combined with his Bush hatred (although I know that's shared by many on the right too), I just can't get as far as categorizing him as extreme right wing. He seems to me to have been an extremely conflicted individual, with some aspects of BOTH extremes, which probably had something to do with his going off the deep end.

where are you getting this registered democrat stuff? thread is moving pretty fast

472 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:02:09pm

re: #470 SixDegrees

Goldwater would likely have no part with what's labeled as "the Right Wing" today.

I know, but, evidently, he's now lumped in with them. And to think we elected a president who ADMITTED to being inspired by that dangerous radical!

473 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:02:24pm

re: #465 Yashmak

I'd totally agree that he wasn't a left winger. . .but based on his being registered democrat, combined with his Bush hatred (although I know that's shared by many on the right too), I just can't get as far as categorizing him as extreme right wing. He seems to me to have been an extremely conflicted individual, with some aspects of BOTH extremes, which probably had something to do with his going off the deep end.

I have yet to see any evidence at all that Bedell had any views that could be characterized as "left wing."

474 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:02:37pm

re: #467 oaktree

The down-ding was for the "I get hassled for not toeing the orthodoxy of the site" line.

Hold your own on the basis of facts and logic. (That the politics in the Middle East are highly illogical at times is a major obstacle.) Dropping back to a statement that's essentially a whine doesn't help your position, and I doubt it will draw much sympathy either.

It happens to be a true statement. I had quite the back and forth with aceofwhat yesterday regarding Roberts and the Supreme Court. We clearly disagreed with each other, but we weren't compulsively down-dinging each other simply because of a legitimate disagreement.

Whenever Israel is brought up, any expression that differs substantively from "the burden of peace rests solely on the Arabs" is compulsively down-dinged. That is what I am referring to.

475 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:03:03pm

re: #472 Guanxi88

I know, but, evidently, he's now lumped in with them. And to think we elected a president who ADMITTED to being inspired by that dangerous radical!

It's just absurd to claim that Barry Goldwater was not a right winger. Seriously. Who do you think you're snowing with this crap?

476 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:03:05pm

re: #471 cliffster

where are you getting this registered democrat stuff? thread is moving pretty fast

I've only seen it at Malkin, and I don't know whether her source is reliable.

477 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:04:37pm

re: #476 wrenchwench

I've only seen it at Malkin, and I don't know whether her source is reliable.

Malkin is best ignored when it comes to facts. She's very often flat wrong, though retractions or corrections are rare.

478 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:04:46pm

re: #475 Charles

It's just absurd to claim that Barry Goldwater was not a right winger. Seriously. Who do you think you're snowing with this crap?

Okay - so he's Bircher Beckian Nirther if he were alive today?

Who said he wasn't of the right? Certainly not me, but since, as I noted, "rightwing" is now shorthand for "tea partying racist truther militiaman" I don't think the term fits.

479 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:04:54pm

Now, whether he was right/left/neither... what can we as a society and a community do to prevent these things from happening?

The Holocaust museum shooter was less than a year ago and only about 3 miles from this past Pentagon shooting.

Seems like these attacks are becoming more frequent and I am afraid they will be accepted as "common".

How can we as a society prevent this without losing our rights in the process?

480 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:04:55pm

I’m currently registered as a Republican. But the chance of me actually voting for a Republican again is virtually nil at this point, unless something changes drastically in the GOP. Being registered with a political party tells you nothing about a person’s actual beliefs.

481 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:04:58pm

re: #465 Yashmak

stop the train...he was a registered Dem??

482 Yashmak  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:05:12pm

re: #471 cliffster

where are you getting this registered democrat stuff? thread is moving pretty fast

Malkin (if her source is reliable) posted his voter registration information. She has a link to the site where she obtained it. Apparently it's some sort of clearinghouse where the media can find out how people are registered.

Here's the info she posted (from that site):
EMID 15324137
STATESOURCE California
DATAACQUIRED 20080121
PrefixTitle MR
LASTNAME,FIRSTNAME,MIDDLENAME Bedell,John,Patrick
SOURCEIDVOTER 30048
DATEOFBIRTH 5/20/1973
PLACEOFBIRTH CA
REGDATE 20051006
GENDER M
PARTY Democrat
ACTIVECODE ACTIVE
STATUS
ResAddr1,ResAddr2,ResCity,ResState,ResZip 110 Georges Dr Hollister,CA
STATEHOUSE 28
STATESENATE 12
USCONGRESS 17
LASTDATEVOTED 20051108

Sounds like the right guy. . . .

483 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:05:14pm

re: #475 Charles

It's just absurd to claim that Barry Goldwater was not a right winger. Seriously. Who do you think you're snowing with this crap?

I think he means that Goldwater isn't a right-winger in the same way that the teabaggers are right-wingers.

484 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:05:47pm

re: #475 Charles

Seriously. Who do you think you're snowing with this crap?

Snowing with this crap?

Not you, that's for sure. You see right through it.

485 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:05:53pm

re: #463 drcordell

Short of the Palestinians accepting Israel's conditions (disarmament, giving up right of return, potentially not having Jerusalem be a shared capitol) what is Israel's plan? If Palestinians choose not to accept these conditions, how much longer will Israel tolerate the status quo?

Israel will tolerate the situation as long as it takes. There is no other choice - not when the Palestinians refuse to give up any and all of the above - right of return, Jerusalem as capital (shared or otherwise), disarmament.

The Palestinians have consistently refused to provide any counter proposals other than demand that Israel make more concessions on Israel's security. That's a nonstarter.

Palestinians could start by releasing Shalit as a humanitarian gesture. None of the diplomats other than Israel have made such calls. Palestinians certainly haven't. Instead, Hamas still demands hundreds of Palestinian terrorists be released for Shalit. How does that make any sense - particularly when we've got abundant evidence that those Israel has released in the past have gone back to engaging in terrorism despite promising not to do so.

Fatah claims it's not in the game of terrorism - but it spun off the AAMB. They carry out the terror ops now. Hamas may likewise do the same with the PRCs. Islamic Jihad isn't even bothering with the "political" and "military" wing nonsense. They're still in it to destroy Israel.

Palestinians do have an option - and that's to dump the terror groups that have been leading them for generations (PLO, Fatah, and now PA and Hamas). That would be a start towards genuine change but that's not going to happen since the Palestinian anger is directed quite nicely at Israel and not at their own chosen leadership.

486 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:06:01pm

re: #473 Charles

I have yet to see any evidence at all that Bedell had any views that could be characterized as "left wing."

Big "Journalism" has an article claiming he's a lefty, of course, which only convinces me of the opposite. Weigel, on the other hand, says the guy had a "mises.com" email address, which would indicate Paulianism.

487 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:06:47pm

re: #482 Yashmak

If it's correct data he also hasn't voted in the last five years.

488 solomonpanting  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:06:52pm

re: #474 drcordell

Whenever Israel is brought up, any expression that differs substantively from "the burden of peace rests solely on the Arabs" is compulsively down-dinged.

If I was into down-dinging, that would be a candidate.

489 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:06:54pm

re: #483 Dark_Falcon

I think he means that Goldwater isn't a right-winger in the same way that the teabaggers are right-wingers.

Which, evidently, is a false dichotomy, maybe. I'm trying to understand how a book about Goldwater clinches the case that he's a rightist thug.

490 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:07:00pm

re: #468 Guanxi88

Hey, he committed violence - he's a rightist, presumptively.. Add evidence of bizarre beliefs, and what else could he be?

Am I right, folks?

Eh. No one is flying off the handle to say that the Piper Cub airplane crasher is a crazy rightwinger.

But was this guy actually registered Dem, or did someone make that up?

491 Yashmak  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:07:14pm

re: #481 Aceofwhat?

stop the train...he was a registered Dem??

Lol, I first posted that WAY upthread. But it's moving pretty fast around here right now :)

492 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:07:22pm

re: #484 Guanxi88

If we could power our electricity off of smug, we'd be able to light up New York with you.

493 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:07:32pm

re: #480 Charles

Being registered with a political party tells you nothing about a person’s actual beliefs.

Unless that person commits an act of violence.

494 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:07:39pm

re: #459 Obdicut

To me, it's that you consistently just ignore the role of the other Arab states in the conflict, and its usefulness to them.

It's not that I am ignoring their role, it's that I don't see the peace process moving further without Israel as the lead participant. They are in the drivers seat. As you clearly understand, the Arab states have little political motivation to further the peace process. While unfortunate, whining about this fact isn't going to change anything. I'm not trying to have a debate regarding who is right. I'm trying to have a practical discussion regarding the resolution of the conflict.

It's not about right vs. wrong. It's about what can actually happen given the political reality of the situation. Complaining about Egypt not doing anything to help the Palestinians doesn't get us anywhere. At the end of the day the burden is going to fall on Israel to foster a solution to this conflict. It sucks. But that's the reality of the situation. And I believe it is in Israel's long-term benefit to broker a solution to the problem. Nobody benefits from maintaining the status quo. Nobody. Not Israel, not Palestinians, nobody.

495 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:07:50pm

re: #492 Obdicut

If we could power our electricity off of smug, we'd be able to light up New York with you.

I'm a low-carbon source of energy.

496 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:07:54pm

re: #486 wrenchwench

Big "Journalism" has an article claiming he's a lefty, of course, which only convinces me of the opposite. Weigel, on the other hand, says the guy had a "mises.com" email address, which would indicate Paulianism.

He was a follower of Ludwig von Mises, libertarian economist who is a favorite of the extreme right wing, and the Paulians. This guy fits the Ron Paul-tea party profile to the letter.

497 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:08:08pm

re: #421 drcordell

Same to you buddy. I'm the one who is actually focused on the real world, while you're off in fantasy land. You think that the Palestinians are going to unilaterally disarm? Fucking forget about it. How naive are you?

I'm trying to talk real world solutions here. Because I don't want to see Israel bogged down in this clusterfuck for the rest of my life. Your solution is a pipe dream. "Well, maybe if we keep allowing settlements in the West Bank and continue to isolate Gaza the Palestinians will come around!" It's never going to fucking happen. Just because Israel has the moral imperative her side, does not mean that the situation will magically resolve itself. But apparently that's what you seem to believe.

Everything you say is backwards. You live in Bizarro World.

The occupation exists because Israel was attacked by all her neighbors in 1968. (And before and after that, but simple arguments for simple minds.)

The security fence exists because the occupation that was forced on the Israelis in self-defense gave irredentist terrorists easy access to Israeli civilian targets.

The situation in Gaza exists because when Israel withdrew the settlements, the response was more violence, not less.

Hamas exists because Fatah was pretending to recognize Israel, though they had no intention of really doing that.

The "refugee crisis" exists because the Mufti of Jerusalem told the Arabs to abandon their homes after the birth of Israel so the invading Arab armies could wipe out the Jews. And because UNRWA's one and only interest is to perpetuate itself and its mission. And because no "Palestinian" can legally obtain citizenship in any Arab country, even after three generations, because that take away a stick with which to beat Israel.

The Arabs have lost war after aggressive war, yet they insist on dictating terms like they were the victors.

If the states surrounding Israel were to offer citizenship to the "Palestinians" living in squalid camps (and kept there by UNRWA and their Arab brothers, on purpose, as political footballs), that would defuse the situation to some extent, but it would also interfere with their long-range plans for the total destruction of Israel.

You are the dupe of decades of successful victimological propaganda by the bad guys.

And you want to talk to me about the real world?

Heh.

498 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:08:17pm

re: #484 Guanxi88

Would you please stop baiting Charles? All you'll get from doing that is banned, and I like having you here.

499 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:08:19pm

re: #404 drcordell

So you are effectively saying that in this Mexican standoff, it's up to the Palestinians to put their gun down first. And until that happens there will be no progress, and Israel will be forced to continue to occupy the West Bank indefinitely?

Until they stop firing their guns and recognize Israel's right to exist there will be no peace. The minute they do, there will be peace.

500 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:08:38pm

re: #480 Charles

I’m currently registered as a Republican. But the chance of me actually voting for a Republican again is virtually nil at this point, unless something changes drastically in the GOP. Being registered with a political party tells you nothing about a person’s actual beliefs.

That may be true, but it is not typical. Generally speaking, you take folks' registrations at their words.

Since he's pushing up daisies, we can't ask him. seems logical to call him a democrat (IF this is true information).

501 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:08:39pm

re: #495 Guanxi88

No, you're not, because, you see, we can't actually power stuff off of smug. So instead, you're just smug.

502 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:08:47pm

re: #486 wrenchwench

Big "Journalism" has an article claiming he's a lefty, of course, which only convinces me of the opposite. Weigel, on the other hand, says the guy had a "mises.com" email address, which would indicate Paulianism.

I'm going with Weigel on this one. Breibart is a huge arse and a joke anyay since his CPAC meltdowns killed his career.
And it's off topic but have you seen Breibart's latest scam?

[Link: washingtonindependent.com...]

503 Yashmak  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:09:08pm

re: #487 oaktree

If it's correct data he also hasn't voted in the last five years.

So it would appear. Which kind of adds to my suspicion that this is more of a case of a deeply troubled guy, than of someone who can be neatly slotted into the category of "left wing" or "right wing".

Couldn't be troubled to vote, but got angry enough to pull this kind of thing.

504 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:09:42pm

re: #500 Aceofwhat?

That may be true, but it is not typical. Generally speaking, you take folks' registrations at their words.

Right -- especially when you're desperate to pretend that a violent criminal doesn't have anything to do with the right wing.

505 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:09:53pm

re: #497 Cato the Elder

Everything you say is backwards. You live in Bizarro World.

The occupation exists because Israel was attacked by all her neighbors in 1968. (And before and after that, but simple arguments for simple minds.)

The security fence exists because the occupation that was forced on the Israelis in self-defense gave irredentist terrorists easy access to Israeli civilian targets.

The situation in Gaza exists because when Israel withdrew the settlements, the response was more violence, not less.

Hamas exists because Fatah was pretending to recognize Israel, though they had no intention of really doing that.

The "refugee crisis" exists because the Mufti of Jerusalem told the Arabs to abandon their homes after the birth of Israel so the invading Arab armies could wipe out the Jews. And because UNRWA's one and only interest is to perpetuate itself and its mission. And because no "Palestinian" can legally obtain citizenship in any Arab country, even after three generations, because that take away a stick with which to beat Israel.

The Arabs have lost war after aggressive war, yet they insist on dictating terms like they were the victors.

If the states surrounding Israel were to offer citizenship to the "Palestinians" living in squalid camps (and kept there by UNRWA and their Arab brothers, on purpose, as political footballs), that would defuse the situation to some extent, but it would also interfere with their long-range plans for the total destruction of Israel.

You are the dupe of decades of successful victimological propaganda by the bad guys.

And you want to talk to me about the real world?

Heh.

Excellent post!

506 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:11:25pm

re: #500 Aceofwhat?

Lyndon LaRouche has also been considered a 'Democrat"-- but not by the Democrats.

Party affiliation amongst a voter is really not that meaningful. Especially in California, and especially in the wake of Rush's stupid ploy to get Hillary nominated or whatever the fuck that was.

507 Buck  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:11:34pm

re: #473 Charles

I have yet to see any evidence at all that Bedell had any views that could be characterized as "left wing."

Trutherism, anti-military, a registered Democrat, and Legalization of Marijuana.

I will bet $1 that we will see the emergence of a good dose of anti-semitism before the week is out.

BUT his views were part Lyndon LaRouche and part Ron Paul...

I personally wouldn't claim either were Right Wing.

508 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:12:12pm

re: #502 Spockista

I'm going with Weigel on this one. Breibart is a huge arse and a joke anyay since his CPAC meltdowns killed his career.
And it's off topic but have you seen Breibart's latest scam?

[Link: washingtonindependent.com...]

Well, Weigel didn't conclude that made him Paulian, that was me. Weigel said

but for now it’s more evidence that Bedell was a deranged person who grabbed onto various incompatible ideologies.

...which to me says "Paulian."

509 Yashmak  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:12:15pm

re: #504 Charles

Right -- especially when you're desperate to pretend that a violent criminal doesn't have anything to do with the right wing.

Well, I'm don't consider myself right-wing, so I don't see any reason I'd be desperate to pretend he didn't have anything to do with them.

It just seems that folks on both sides of this argument are desperate to prove SOMETHING, to the point that they may be sacrificing a bit of objectivity. No offense intended, Charles.

510 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:12:29pm

re: #367 Guanxi88

Mafia, CIA & Bush
The Bush Crime Family Exposed
Family of Secrets: The Bush Dynasty
Spider's Web: The Secret History of how the White House Illegally Armed Iraq

Typical Alex Jones / conspiracy kook reading material. In my opinion, the primary characteristic of someone who thinks conspiratorially is that they alone (well, they and their like-minded compatriots) are the only ones tuned in enough to see What's Really Going On. Everyone else is just a cog in The Machine, an uninformed automaton so lacking in mental acuity and comforted by the lies fed to them by absolutely everyone and everything that they have no idea what a colossal sham everything is. Anyone who bothers to actively debate them and try to dissuade them from their nonsense is invariably seen as either a Useful Idiot, or an actual Agent of The Bad Guys.

And they stakes are always huge. It's never about some piddly city councilman in Nowheresville. It's always the biggest and most powerful invisible entities imaginable, of which everyone and everything is merely a puppet, doing its bidding (knowingly or not). Dynastic families and old organizations like the Freemasons are favorite hobgoblins, because the kooks need for the Grand Unified Conspiracy to have roots that go back hundreds or thousands of years. Makes it all the more mysterious and cryptic, you see. Lucky for us sheep, we have the kooks to connect the dots and show us the Oligarh edge of the Matrix.

In my opinion, this core conspiracy thinking is not about left vs. right for them. Individual kooks may tint their view one way or the other, but at the heart of it all is their unshakable belief in their own grandiosity.

511 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:12:32pm

re: #494 drcordell

It's not that I am ignoring their role, it's that I don't see the peace process moving further without Israel as the lead participant. They are in the drivers seat. As you clearly understand, the Arab states have little political motivation to further the peace process. While unfortunate, whining about this fact isn't going to change anything. I'm not trying to have a debate regarding who is right. I'm trying to have a practical discussion regarding the resolution of the conflict.

It's not about right vs. wrong. It's about what can actually happen given the political reality of the situation. Complaining about Egypt not doing anything to help the Palestinians doesn't get us anywhere. At the end of the day the burden is going to fall on Israel to foster a solution to this conflict. It sucks. But that's the reality of the situation. And I believe it is in Israel's long-term benefit to broker a solution to the problem. Nobody benefits from maintaining the status quo. Nobody. Not Israel, not Palestinians, nobody.

I'm going to boldface this to make the point as clear as can be:

Israel cannot broker a solution with enemies who will not even acknowledge her right to exist! Until the Palestinians are willing to accept Israel's existence, no peace is possible. FULL STOP

512 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:12:46pm

re: #490 Aceofwhat?

Eh. No one is flying off the handle to say that the Piper Cub airplane crasher is a crazy rightwinger.

But was this guy actually registered Dem, or did someone make that up?

Plus, he was into linux and you know what those guys are like//

513 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:12:56pm

re: #501 Obdicut

No, you're not, because, you see, we can't actually power stuff off of smug. So instead, you're just smug.

(Shakes head, ruefully)

514 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:13:18pm

re: #504 Charles

Right -- especially when you're desperate to pretend that a violent criminal doesn't have anything to do with the right wing.

Until now, i have done no such thing. And it may well be the case that he is not a typical Democrat. However, if that is his information, then he is a Democrat.

IIRC, there are registered Democrats at the tea parties, too.

It is what it is. I'm happy to adopt him, though, as an example of why dangerous rhetoric is dangerous if it makes everyone feel better.

515 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:13:33pm

re: #507 Buck

Trutherism, anti-military, a registered Democrat, and Legalization of Marijuana.

And not a single one of these qualifies as exclusively "left wing." His party registration is completely irrelevant. His own statements and views are on the record, and they're very clear. He's an extreme right wing libertarian.

516 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:13:42pm

re: #494 drcordell

That's ignoring their role, dude.

You're begging the question every time you say the burden falls on Israel. The Palestinians are co-religionists of the Arab states, and they claim to want to help them. So why, instead, are they prolonging their misery?

You're not addressing the role of the Arab states, you're simply stating they have no role, that Israel is the only one who has a role. It is not an argument. It is just an assertion.

517 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:14:17pm

re: #508 wrenchwench

...which to me says "Paulian."

Oh yeah, I think I posted about 4 times about Bedell's spouted economic policies being Von Mises and it seemed to go over many heads...

518 Yashmak  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:14:30pm

re: #506 Obdicut


Party affiliation amongst a voter is really not that meaningful. Especially in California, and especially in the wake of Rush's stupid ploy to get Hillary nominated or whatever the fuck that was.

C'mon man. Voter registration isn't meaningful, but an Amazon.com wish list (for a KAREN Bedell, who I assume is his wife) is? We're engaged in subjectively weighting circumstancial evidence to fit our own version of how we want to categorize this guy.

519 solomonpanting  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:14:32pm

re: #494 drcordell


These lines

As you clearly understand, the Arab states have little political motivation to further the peace process.While unfortunate, whining about this fact isn't going to change anything.

would appear to be in direct conflict with these

It's not about right vs. wrong. It's about what can actually happen given the political reality of the situation.

The political reality is that the Arab states don't desire peace.

520 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:14:33pm

re: #512 RogueOne

Plus, he was into linux and you know what those guys are like//

The abolition of all intellectual property rights!

521 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:15:12pm

re: #506 Obdicut

Lyndon LaRouche has also been considered a 'Democrat"-- but not by the Democrats.

Party affiliation amongst a voter is really not that meaningful. Especially in California, and especially in the wake of Rush's stupid ploy to get Hillary nominated or whatever the fuck that was.

what percentage of californians ARE registered relatively correctly?

"really not that meaningful" = 20% predictive? 80% predictive?

522 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:15:15pm

re: #520 SixDegrees

The abolition of all intellectual property rights!

I was trying to give obdi a poke but I think he missed it.

Cya folks, I have to head home.

523 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:15:43pm

re: #518 Yashmak

I can tell you far more about someone by what they read, and what they want to read, than I can by their voter registration, yes.

I'm not sure why that's such a crazy idea to you. Can you explain?

524 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:16:34pm

re: #509 Yashmak

Well, I'm don't consider myself right-wing, so I don't see any reason I'd be desperate to pretend he didn't have anything to do with them.

It just seems that folks on both sides of this argument are desperate to prove SOMETHING, to the point that they may be sacrificing a bit of objectivity. No offense intended, Charles.

Look -- I listened to the audio recordings this guy put online, and read his post at Wikipedia before it was deleted. I'm not sacrificing any objectivity -- it's flat obvious that if you're going to describe his political views, they are right wing, not left wing.

I see quite a few people in this thread, though, who are sacrificing their objectivity and making really strained and empty arguments to claim he was a left winger.

525 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:16:35pm

re: #515 Charles

And not a single one of these qualifies as exclusively "left wing." His party registration is completely irrelevant. His own statements and views are on the record, and they're very clear. He's an extreme right wing libertarian.

It's completely irrelevant?

Then why bother registering?

I buy that you believe it's outweighed by other evidence. Completely Irrelevant seems like a stretch.

526 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:17:21pm

re: #503 Yashmak

I concur. The attempts to slap labels on this is sort of disheartening. That primary cause for the event looks to be mental illness. That the route to the act led through a fixation "left" or "right" -wing rhetoric is secondary.

Though I would agree that the amount of rhetoric promoting resorting to violence against the government has been ratcheting up in recent years, and the balance of it is coming from a set self-identifying right-wing groups.

527 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:17:31pm

re: #525 Aceofwhat?

It's completely irrelevant?

Then why bother registering?

Because it's a requirement.

528 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:17:54pm

re: #524 Charles

Look -- I listened to the audio recordings this guy put online, and read his post at Wikipedia before it was deleted. I'm not sacrificing any objectivity -- it's flat obvious that if you're going to describe his political views, they are right wing, not left wing.

I see quite a few people in this thread, though, who are sacrificing their objectivity and making really strained and empty arguments to claim he was a left winger.

I stand by the claim that he was a deluded and insane man whose delusional structure assumed political characteristics and incorporated political elements.

529 Yashmak  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:18:33pm

re: #523 Obdicut

I can tell you far more about someone by what they read, and what they want to read, than I can by their voter registration, yes.

I'm not sure why that's such a crazy idea to you. Can you explain?

As I said a ways up-thread. . .by that criteria you would have judged me as a liberal, which I am not. Just sayin'.

530 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:18:34pm

re: #482 Yashmak

That's not terribly surprising. The Libertarians during the Bush years were spread all over. Only recently with the presidential campaign of Ron Paul and being welcomed with open arms by the Republicans have they gravitated towards the Republican party. When the Tea Parties claim to be bipartisan with Democrats attending these are the people they're referring to.

531 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:18:42pm

Seriously, if the term right-wing is going to be tweaked as necessary to allow it to include any undesirable person, then what value does the term have? Other than a convenient way to create a disparaging link between the GOP and undesirable people. Talk about moving the goalpost.

532 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:18:47pm

re: #526 oaktree

I concur. The attempts to slap labels on this is sort of disheartening. That primary cause for the event looks to be mental illness.

Th primary causes appear to be Beck, Bachmann, and Rush.

533 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:18:57pm

re: #521 Aceofwhat?

I don't know what you mean by' correctly'. In many parts of California, only a Democrat has a chance of being elected. If you want to be able to vote for a more conservative candidate, the only way you can really do so is in a Democratic primary.

I am much less concerned with saying that this guy is or is not a right-wing guy, than pointing out that posts like JVC's, positions like that-- that these people are fighting an 'injustice' are cropping up a lot in the tea parties and the Paulians, who are being courted and embraced by the right wing.

That's my point; I don't care particularly whether we can call the individuals who snap into violence 'right' or 'left'- it's the people endorsing their actions or excusing them that scare me.

And the right-wing has a lot of people endorsing violence.

534 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:19:51pm

re: #529 Yashmak

By what criteria? I have no clue what you're talking about. And please read my #533.

535 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:19:52pm

re: #497 Cato the Elder

Everything you say is backwards. You live in Bizarro World.

The occupation exists because Israel was attacked by all her neighbors in 1968. (And before and after that, but simple arguments for simple minds.)

The security fence exists because the occupation that was forced on the Israelis in self-defense gave irredentist terrorists easy access to Israeli civilian targets.

The situation in Gaza exists because when Israel withdrew the settlements, the response was more violence, not less.

Hamas exists because Fatah was pretending to recognize Israel, though they had no intention of really doing that.

The "refugee crisis" exists because the Mufti of Jerusalem told the Arabs to abandon their homes after the birth of Israel so the invading Arab armies could wipe out the Jews. And because UNRWA's one and only interest is to perpetuate itself and its mission. And because no "Palestinian" can legally obtain citizenship in any Arab country, even after three generations, because that take away a stick with which to beat Israel.

The Arabs have lost war after aggressive war, yet they insist on dictating terms like they were the victors.

If the states surrounding Israel were to offer citizenship to the "Palestinians" living in squalid camps (and kept there by UNRWA and their Arab brothers, on purpose, as political footballs), that would defuse the situation to some extent, but it would also interfere with their long-range plans for the total destruction of Israel.

You are the dupe of decades of successful victimological propaganda by the bad guys.

And you want to talk to me about the real world?

Heh.

Jesus Christ in a handbasket man. Apparently I am just talking right past you? You keep referring back to the root cause of the situation. You keep attempting to assign blame for the situation. And you are right. I don't fundamentally disagree with much of what you just wrote. This situation completely stems from the fact that the Arabs attempted to wipe Israel off the face of the earth in 1968. You are 100% right about that.

But at the end of the day, what relevance does that have to the current situation? As I said before, there is no doubt that Israel has the moral imperative in this situation. This was not a crisis of their creation. But unfortunately it is now a crisis that threatens to undermine the stability of the state of Israel, as well as the international support that Israel currently enjoys. You are so, so, so hung up on assigning the blame. And I am trying to explain that it doesn't mean dick right now. The fact that the Arabs caused this situation by starting the 1968 war doesn't mean dick in 2010.

What matters today is "how will this situation be resolved?" And I simply don't see any improvement if the onus is placed completely on the Palestinians to unilaterally disarm. And I see that the current situation is miserable for the Israeli people. You act like I've been "brainwashed" by some sort of Palestinian propaganda. When in reality I agree with the facts that you have laid out almost 100%. Where we differ is that you seem to think Israel can continue to maintain the current situation indefinitely. Whereas I see the current situation as the single largest liability the state of Israel faces today.

536 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:20:01pm

re: #482 Yashmak


LASTDATEVOTED 20051108

He's not voted in over five years though.

537 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:20:36pm

re: #531 cliffster

Seriously, if the term right-wing is going to be tweaked as necessary to allow it to include any undesirable person, then what value does the term have? Other than a convenient way to create a disparaging link between the GOP and undesirable people. Talk about moving the goalpost.

If the GOP is going to tweaked as necessary to allow truthers, Birchers, and Paulites in, then what value does it have?

538 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:21:26pm

re: #527 Charles

Because it's a requirement.

Ok. so he was a registered Democrat, crazy, whose conglomeration of personal craziness most closely resembles that observed in far-out tea partiers, who are a rather odious offshoot of the fringe right.

i'm fine with that.

539 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:21:38pm

My goal in bringing this is not to mock people or be mean, but if one were to go to the Creationists glom onto AGW thread there is poster who is taking a very firm denial stance and doing his best to argue physics as he understands it. It is a good window as to how much physics is understood.

My goal is honestly not to excoriate this person, but rather to illustrate just how bad the standards of science education are in this nation and just how difficult it is to get even basic science across once something becomes so politicized. My goal is to also illustrate just how truly abysmal the science discussion can get.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

540 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:21:50pm

The only way we are going to stop these sort of violent outbursts is to make those who are encouraging them responsible.

How about all those violent based signs at the 9/12 tea party in DC???

Signs claiming that these folks are going to return to DC "armed" next time.

WTF?

I have never seen that at a leftist protest.

People who subscribe to these groups who protest with violent based rhetoric are part of the problem.

541 Yashmak  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:22:00pm

re: #534 Obdicut

By what criteria? I have no clue what you're talking about. And please read my #533.

Telling more by what they read, than by how they are registered. Incidentally, I'm from California, so I understand what you're saying in #533.

542 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:22:03pm

re: #533 Obdicut

sounds good. well done there.

543 Buck  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:22:45pm

re: #524 Charles

claim he was a left winger.


Denying that he was a right winger is NOT the same as claiming he was Left Wing.

I repeat from a previous thread:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

The political spectrum is not a LINE, but a circle.

At the bottom of the circle is the "center"... as you move either left or right, you circle back and both meet at the top...Crazy street.

If the Unbomber was acting today, the press would label him a Tea Party guy.

544 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:22:54pm

re: #524 Charles

Look -- I listened to the audio recordings this guy put online, and read his post at Wikipedia before it was deleted. I'm not sacrificing any objectivity -- it's flat obvious that if you're going to describe his political views, they are right wing, not left wing.

I see quite a few people in this thread, though, who are sacrificing their objectivity and making really strained and empty arguments to claim he was a left winger.

Yeah I simply do not understand the calling an orange an elephant thing works. Facts are facts.

545 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:23:19pm

re: #537 Obdicut

If the GOP is going to tweaked as necessary to allow truthers, Birchers, and Paulites in, then what value does it have?

They're there, no denying it. Hardly tweaking of the party, though.

546 Yashmak  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:23:56pm

re: #524 Charles

I can't claim to have heard those things, so if they were central in forming that opinion, I'll have to bow to your having more insight into his mind-set than I have.

547 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:24:02pm

re: #537 Obdicut

If the GOP is going to tweaked as necessary to allow truthers, Birchers, and Paulites in, then what value does it have?

I'm not falling over myself trying to define the Democratic Party as including sinister people. I'd prefer to talk about issues and philosophies. Unfortunately the Democrats put an enormous amount of effort trying to just that to the GOP. Then they turn around and accuse the GOP of using false talking points to detract from the issues. That strikes me as being quite hypocritical.

548 Buck  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:24:08pm

re: #540 Spockista

The only way we are going to stop these sort of violent outbursts is to make those who are encouraging them responsible.

How about all those violent based signs at the 9/12 tea party in DC???

Signs claiming that these folks are going to return to DC "armed" next time.

WTF?

I have never seen that at a leftist protest.

People who subscribe to these groups who protest with violent based rhetoric are part of the problem.

Then you missed 8 years of anti war protests.

549 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:24:49pm

re: #524 Charles

Look -- I listened to the audio recordings this guy put online, and read his post at Wikipedia before it was deleted. I'm not sacrificing any objectivity -- it's flat obvious that if you're going to describe his political views, they are right wing, not left wing.

I see quite a few people in this thread, though, who are sacrificing their objectivity and making really strained and empty arguments to claim he was a left winger.

I agree there is no way this guy was a socialist because he utterly detested the government's role in the economy and in education
.
But let's get back to the allegation that he was a registered Democrat. I don't think party registration is necessarity irrelevant. I would like to know when he registered, because if he registered very recently then it would be much more relevant that if he registered a very long time ago...after all, peoples' views do change.

550 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:24:49pm

And my karma begins its descent back into the red. I should just have left the thread without putting in my 2 cents.

551 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:24:57pm

I shouldn't be surprised at the denial, I guess. It comes up every single time one of these incidents happens.

And that's one reason why the climate of violence and extremism on the right is getting worse. Right wingers lie to themselves, and pretend it's not happening, or pretend they can court these extremists without any consequences.

There are going to be more incidents like this.

552 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:25:22pm

re: #548 Buck

Then you missed 8 years of anti war protests.

Oh really?

I live in DC and attended every one of them.

show me one sign at a leftist protest claiming they are going to come to DC armed with guns?

553 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:25:36pm

re: #541 Yashmak

I'm not claiming I can perfectly tell someone's political stance from his reading list, but I doubt this guy was doing opposition research.

Anyway, again, I'm mainly concerned about the reactions of others on the right to people like this, rather than their actual motivations. That members of the GOP-- elected members-- are implicitly endorsing violence and excusing these people as being frustrated, etc, is dangerous and foolish to me.

Anyway, I think I've made myself clear enough, and I have to finish off a load of work. Sorry if I've been unclear.

554 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:25:58pm

re: #551 Charles

I shouldn't be surprised at the denial, I guess. It comes up every single time one of these incidents happens.

And that's one reason why the climate of violence and extremism on the right is getting worse. Right wingers lie to themselves, and pretend it's not happening, or pretend they can court these extremists without any consequences.

There are going to be more incidents like this.

Yep, same way Limbaugh caused OKC.

555 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:26:00pm

re: #464 SixDegrees

Would you believe I agree with that post?

556 Yashmak  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:26:09pm

re: #544 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah I simply do not understand the calling an orange an elephant thing works. Facts are facts.

Well, I think part of the problem is that folks are trying to classify a guy as either a left-winger, or right-winger, when to be honest, everyone here probably has a subtly (or perhaps significantly) different idea of exactly what that either of those things mean.

E

557 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:26:10pm

re: #547 cliffster

I have no idea how that forms a response to what I said.

558 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:26:16pm

re: #525 Aceofwhat?

It's completely irrelevant?

Then why bother registering?

I buy that you believe it's outweighed by other evidence. Completely Irrelevant seems like a stretch.

Not sure what state you live in, but in Ohio, you can not vote in a primary unless you have a party affiliation. Depending on who I want to see in the finals, on any given year I might go to the polls during a primary and declare myself a rep or a dem.

559 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:26:30pm

re: #546 Yashmak

I can't claim to have heard those things, so if they were central in forming that opinion, I'll have to bow to your having more insight into his mind-set than I have.

Here's a summary of what's on the audio recordings he posted:

[Link: tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

Absolutely, 100% extreme right wing libertarian ideology.

560 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:26:40pm

re: #543 Buck

If the Unbomber was acting today, the press would label him a Tea Party guy.


Probably not. As I recall he railed against technology and didn't have any right wing ideas or associations.

561 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:26:46pm

re: #552 Spockista

Oh really?

I live in DC and attended every one of them.

show me one sign at a leftist protest claiming they are going to come to DC armed with guns?

Why not demand to see one carried by a tea partier? Anti-war protests included a number of signs suggesting, among other things, that the carriers thereof supported fragging officers, etc.

562 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:27:06pm

re: #548 Buck

Then you missed 8 years of anti war protests.

Yeah those huge anti-war protests that had a news network dedicated to covering them. The anti-war protests had millions upon millions of people attending them. Yet they received only a cursory glance from the major networks. The teabaggers? Aside from the fact that they had their own private cheerleaders in Fox News, the rest of the MSM hyped them relentlessly as well. Afraid that they would appear too "partisan" if they didn't cover 2,000 retirees gathering at the national monument.

563 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:27:06pm

re: #548 Buck

Then you missed 8 years of anti war protests.

An anti war protest is not the same thing as shooting at people. The two are not equivalent. What is wrong with you?

564 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:27:13pm

re: #535 drcordell

But at the end of the day, what relevance does that have to the current situation?

Everything.

What happened in 1968 directly affects everything from that point forward because the UN enshrined the doctrine of land for peace in the lexicon. UN SCR 242.

Palestinians wont be happy unless they get all of the land for peace; Israel and the US read those provisions as requiring Israel to return lands for peace - not necessarily all the land.

Right of return is an open question, and the Israelis have considered granting some small number - in reference to those who were displaced in 1948 and 1967 - not the generations born in camps thereafter.

Mind you that Israel tried to give Gaza to Egypt in 1979 - and Egypt turned it down. They didn't want that territory any more than Israel did. So Israel remained stuck with it until 2005.

So yes, the onus does remain on the Palestinians to disarm because Israel would have finally a partner in peace. Until such time, Israel will have no such partner.

That liability you speak of is that Israel chooses to continue to exist despite not having a partner in peace on its borders with the West Bank, Gaza, Lebanon and Syria (and those regimes have funding from Iran to boot). Cut off funding from Iran, and we might see a change in the circumstances as the money dries up just as Jordan finally entered a peace agreement with Israel following its cozy relationship with Iraq that ended following the first Gulf War.

565 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:27:21pm

re: #527 Charles

Because it's a requirement.

You have to register as a member of a political party in California? That's...disturbing.

I have to register in order to vote, but I've never been asked my party affiliation when doing so.

566 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:27:49pm

re: #550 drcordell

Seroiusly, man, I'll stick up for you any time I think you're unjustly attacked, but I think that your position on Israel and Palestine is at best narrow, and at worst carries implicit racism or culturalism about Arabs-- that of course those crazy Arabs can't change, so it's up to the Jews.

I am not accusing you of being racist.

Okay, now I really have to work. Later, all.

567 Yashmak  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:28:06pm

re: #565 SixDegrees

You have to register as a member of a political party in California? That's...disturbing.

I have to register in order to vote, but I've never been asked my party affiliation when doing so.

In order to vote in the primary, you must register in CA. IIRC.

568 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:28:09pm

re: #561 Guanxi88

Why not demand to see one carried by a tea partier? Anti-war protests included a number of signs suggesting, among other things, that the carriers thereof supported fragging officers, etc.

Okay, here is one for ya...

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

569 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:28:20pm

re: #566 Obdicut

Seroiusly, man, I'll stick up for you any time I think you're unjustly attacked, but I think that your position on Israel and Palestine is at best narrow, and at worst carries implicit racism or culturalism about Arabs-- that of course those crazy Arabs can't change, so it's up to the Jews.

I am not accusing you of being racist.

Okay, now I really have to work. Later, all.

Don't forget to feed the yeast!

570 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:28:31pm

re: #535 drcordell

Where we differ is that you seem to think Israel can continue to maintain the current situation indefinitely. Whereas I see the current situation as the single largest liability the state of Israel faces today.

No, the single biggest problem Israel faces today is the same one it faced in 1948. Its neighbors want to wipe it off the map.

Until that changes, giving up the settlements, tearing down the security fence, "sharing" Jerusalem as capital, allowing the "right of return" to every quarter-Palestinian born in Seattle or Stockholm, and/or any other substantial "concessions" (after how many fruitless experiments with concessions in the past?) would be suicide.

If I were an Israeli, I'd very much prefer the status quo to being slaughtered by my neighbors.

Since you seem to believe there is some magical act or political tap-dance that Israel could perform to make the eliminationist aims of the Arabs disappear, perhaps you'd care to share it with us? I'm all ears, just like Obama.

571 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:28:43pm

re: #550 drcordell

And my karma begins its descent back into the red. I should just have left the thread without putting in my 2 cents.

Your views are rather karmical.

572 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:28:56pm

re: #563 LudwigVanQuixote

Except where some of those protests included calls for assassinating President Bush or VP Cheney....

573 Yashmak  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:29:00pm

Okey dokey, thanks for the link Charles. . .I'll give that a listen.

Back to work.

574 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:29:38pm

re: #565 SixDegrees

You have to register as a member of a political party in California? That's...disturbing.

I have to register in order to vote, but I've never been asked my party affiliation when doing so.

You can choose "unaffiliated" as your party, but if you do, you get a ballot that consists only of unaffiliated candidates.

575 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:29:40pm

re: #566 Obdicut

Seroiusly, man, I'll stick up for you any time I think you're unjustly attacked, but I think that your position on Israel and Palestine is at best narrow, and at worst carries implicit racism or culturalism about Arabs-- that of course those crazy Arabs can't change, so it's up to the Jews.

I am not accusing you of being racist.

Okay, now I really have to work. Later, all.

I don't think that the "crazy arabs" can't change. I think that they are in a position where they have determined it is not in their best interests to unilaterally disarm. I don't think they are crazy, I think it is a decision that they have reached consciously.

576 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:29:53pm

re: #558 Jeff In Ohio

Not sure what state you live in, but in Ohio, you can not vote in a primary unless you have a party affiliation. Depending on who I want to see in the finals, on any given year I might go to the polls during a primary and declare myself a rep or a dem.

generally folks who hate the government with a passion that allows this sort of despicable act aren't registering to vote, imho. (i did see a post that he hadn't voted since 2005, so perhaps that helps to prove my point...and Charles', at the same time).

grew up in Ohio. the weather's better in Florida!

and yes, it may or may not mean anything. it's just interesting, like his reading list.

577 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:29:55pm

re: #569 Guanxi88

Don't forget to feed the yeast!

I read stuff like that and start to ask, "what does THAT mean?" And then I decide I'm not going to ask.

578 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:30:31pm

re: #568 Spockista

Okay, here is one for ya...

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

Image: shoot_officers.jpg

Image: aborttroops_man.jpg

Image: fuck_the_troops2.jpg

We could do this all day, although you might run out of material before I would

579 solomonpanting  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:30:54pm

re: #569 Guanxi88

Don't forget to feed the yeast!

Dough!

580 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:31:02pm

re: #544 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah I simply do not understand the calling an orange an elephant thing works. Facts are facts.

Well, if you define an elephant as a round citrus fruit with a rind and sweet segmented sections, with or without seeds, then there's no problem, is there? It's magic!

See Doc Cordell's arguments re Israel.

581 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:31:14pm

re: #574 Charles

You can choose "unaffiliated" as your party, but if you do, you get a ballot that consists only of unaffiliated candidates.

What? If you register as a republican or a democrat, you can vote for whoever you want to, but if you say unaffiliated then you can't vote for anyone who is a republican or a democrat?

582 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:32:00pm

OT: NY Rep. Eric Massa (D-NY) is resigning effective immediately in a Friday Night news dump.

583 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:32:08pm

re: #574 Charles

You can choose "unaffiliated" as your party, but if you do, you get a ballot that consists only of unaffiliated candidates.

Uh - are we talking about general elections here, or only primaries?

584 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:32:27pm

re: #535 drcordell

Jesus Christ in a handbasket man. Apparently I am just talking right past you? You keep referring back to the root cause of the situation. You keep attempting to assign blame for the situation. And you are right. I don't fundamentally disagree with much of what you just wrote. This situation completely stems from the fact that the Arabs attempted to wipe Israel off the face of the earth in 1968. You are 100% right about that.

But at the end of the day, what relevance does that have to the current situation? As I said before, there is no doubt that Israel has the moral imperative in this situation. This was not a crisis of their creation. But unfortunately it is now a crisis that threatens to undermine the stability of the state of Israel, as well as the international support that Israel currently enjoys. You are so, so, so hung up on assigning the blame. And I am trying to explain that it doesn't mean dick right now. The fact that the Arabs caused this situation by starting the 1968 war doesn't mean dick in 2010.

What matters today is "how will this situation be resolved?" And I simply don't see any improvement if the onus is placed completely on the Palestinians to unilaterally disarm. And I see that the current situation is miserable for the Israeli people. You act like I've been "brainwashed" by some sort of Palestinian propaganda. When in reality I agree with the facts that you have laid out almost 100%. Where we differ is that you seem to think Israel can continue to maintain the current situation indefinitely. Whereas I see the current situation as the single largest liability the state of Israel faces today.

I think the history does matter because it shows how unwilling the Arabs have been to honestly negotiate and not reneg on every deal that's been put out.

And that's been the problem. Israel doesn't just give an inch. They give feet, yards, miles and what do the Arabs give? At some point, Sharon threw his hands in the air and built the fence. They had to do whatever they could to keep them out. The infitada was brutal. The Arabs have given no indication that if Israel was lenient as to the wall and the checkpoints, that they wouldn't try to keep bombing so the wall and the checkpoints remain.

Do you think that giving up E. Jerusalem is the answer to peace? And if so, why?

585 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:32:36pm

re: #578 Guanxi88

[Link: www.capveterans.com...]

[Link: www.capveterans.com...]

[Link: www.capveterans.com...]

None of them talk about committing violent acts or coming to DC armed with a gun.

Were those signs nice? NO! but talking about coming to DC armed with guns is a very drastic difference between that and "abort the troops"

We could do this all day, although you might run out of material before I would

586 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:33:04pm

re: #535 drcordell

This is so ignorant, I am almost in shock.

History has consequences.

I thank Lawhawk and Cato for taking the time to educate you. It is stuff like this, and most of the stuff that gets said by the various denier types and whatever else that makes me goggle in disbelief.

There is a real physical world. There are real things that happen and we know that they have happened. All of these things have cause and effect. Simply trying to say otherwise by making stuff up or saying such mind-bogglingly silly things helps nothing and no one.

I mean I can sit here and fume all day that an apricot is the same thing as an airplane or any number of other completely deranged rewrites of fact - but that does not make it so.

What boggles me is that people actually seem to believe the crap they write in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

587 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:33:15pm

re: #549 Spare O'Lake

I agree there is no way this guy was a socialist because he utterly detested the government's role in the economy and in education
.
But let's get back to the allegation that he was a registered Democrat. I don't think party registration is necessarity irrelevant. I would like to know when he registered, because if he registered very recently then it would be much more relevant that if he registered a very long time ago...after all, peoples' views do change.

He last voted in 2005

588 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:33:47pm

re: #550 drcordell

And my karma begins its descent back into the red. I should just have left the thread without putting in my 2 cents.

Don't go. I like you. OK??? OK!!!!

589 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:33:47pm

re: #565 SixDegrees

You have to register as a member of a political party in California? That's...disturbing.

I have to register in order to vote, but I've never been asked my party affiliation when doing so.

In most states, you have to register to vote in primaries. That's what Charles is talking about.

590 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:34:51pm

This one doesn't talk about shooting but it is pretty sick for a kid to be holding

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

591 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:34:56pm

re: #572 lawhawk

Except where some of those protests included calls for assassinating President Bush or VP Cheney...

Did they shoot at people? And how many were there doing it? I am not saying it was right or defending it in anyway, but the notion that the left has as many crazies who are as virulent as those on the right is simply wrong.

592 [deleted]  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:34:57pm
593 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:34:57pm

re: #575 drcordell

I don't think that the "crazy arabs" can't change. I think that they are in a position where they have determined it is not in their best interests to unilaterally disarm. I don't think they are crazy, I think it is a decision that they have reached consciously.

They don't have to disarm, all they have to do is stop shooting. Israel won't attack them if they don't commit acts of aggression.

594 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:35:00pm

re: #575 drcordell

Who the fuck is talking about the Arab states unilaterally disarming?

/I can't actually do my work until the guy who said he fixed the problem actually fixes his damn problem. Grrr.

595 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:35:07pm

re: #574 Charles

You can choose "unaffiliated" as your party, but if you do, you get a ballot that consists only of unaffiliated candidates.

You're talking primaries, right?

596 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:35:37pm

re: #583 SixDegrees

Uh - are we talking about general elections here, or only primaries?

Primaries. But the point is that in order to vote in California in any meaningful way, you either MUST declare a party affiliation, or jump through hoops and make special requests to vote for one party or the other.

The rules are complicated, naturally. Here's a page at the California Secretary of State website that explains:

[Link: www.sos.ca.gov...]

597 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:36:31pm

re: #535 drcordell

This situation completely stems from the fact that the Arabs attempted to wipe Israel off the face of the earth in 1968.

June, 1967, moron.

598 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:36:50pm

re: #582 lawhawk

OT: NY Rep. Eric Massa (D-NY) is resigning effective immediately in a Friday Night news dump.

Another one bites the dust.

599 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:36:52pm

re: #586 LudwigVanQuixote

I see that all the time - and I've been writing about the Middle East pretty much consistently since the early 1990s (including writing my master's thesis on the peace process in the Middle East up to and including Oslo, Wye, and the Gaza-Jericho accords). If I didn't go into law, journalism and covering the Middle East would have been my destination.

600 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:37:35pm

re: #589 Cato the Elder

In most states, you have to register to vote in primaries. That's what Charles is talking about.

That's what I'm thinking. I scrounged around upthread, but must have missed that bit.

Michigan has open primaries. You don't have to belong to a party to vote in them, and you can cast your vote as you see fit.

601 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:38:05pm

Given that Bedell had a serious case of right wing Bush Derangement Syndrome, it's not surprising at all that he registered as a Democrat in California.

602 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:38:20pm

re: #596 Charles

Primaries. But the point is that in order to vote in California in any meaningful way, you either MUST declare a party affiliation, or jump through hoops and make special requests to vote for one party or the other.

The rules are complicated, naturally. Here's a page at the California Secretary of State website that explains:

[Link: www.sos.ca.gov...]

Jesus Christ.

603 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:38:37pm

re: #586 LudwigVanQuixote

This is so ignorant, I am almost in shock.

History has consequences.

I thank Lawhawk and Cato for taking the time to educate you. It is stuff like this, and most of the stuff that gets said by the various denier types and whatever else that makes me goggle in disbelief.

There is a real physical world. There are real things that happen and we know that they have happened. All of these things have cause and effect. Simply trying to say otherwise by making stuff up or saying such mind-bogglingly silly things helps nothing and no one.

I mean I can sit here and fume all day that an apricot is the same thing as an airplane or any number of other completely deranged rewrites of fact - but that does not make it so.

What boggles me is that people actually seem to believe the crap they write in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

What exactly did I say that you find so ignorant? That the Arab war of 1968 is the root cause of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, but that fact is not currently relevant to the solution of the problem in 2010?

604 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:38:54pm

And by the way, I posted numerous pictures from the tea party in Washington DC that showed demonstrators with anti-Bush signs.

605 [deleted]  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:39:33pm
606 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:39:39pm

K, i gotta go. have a good afternoon my fine green friends.

607 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:40:13pm

re: #604 Charles

And by the way, I posted numerous pictures from the tea party in Washington DC that showed demonstrators with anti-Bush signs.

Shocking behavior from the GOP's shock troops.

608 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:40:24pm

If you link to that dishonest creep's website, your comment will be deleted.

609 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:40:29pm

re: #594 Obdicut

Who the fuck is talking about the Arab states unilaterally disarming?

/I can't actually do my work until the guy who said he fixed the problem actually fixes his damn problem. Grrr.

Not Arab states. The Palestinians. Disarm, cease the violence, whatever you wish to call it. The response I have received from several different posters is all the same. The Palestinians stop the violence and peace happens.

610 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:40:35pm

re: #603 drcordell

Yes - exactly that - because it completely ignores that the Palestinians purposefully look at the history to cull events to create a mythos - the keys to houses in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv; the 1967 Six Day war led to UN SCR 242, which set out land for peace. That has direct consequences for any peace process between Israel and its enemies.

611 solomonpanting  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:40:45pm

re: #603 drcordell

What exactly did I say that you find so ignorant? That the Arab war of 1968 is the root cause of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, but that fact is not currently relevant to the solution of the problem in 2010?

I take back a previous comment. Have a down-ding.

612 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:40:45pm

re: #568 Spockista

Okay, here is one for ya...

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

More evidence that stereotypes tend to have some basis in fact.

613 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:40:59pm

re: #592 Guanxi88

[Link: patdollard.com...]

There's more, but so long as you have decided now that nothing less than an explicit threat to come armed to DC will meet your (current) requirements, you'll just have to wait.

Exactly, because the left doesn't do that.

But again, at the tea party those fat faced morons from montana were very happy about holding signs claiming they were going to be coming back to DC armed.

I talked to a DCMetro cop about it and he was very concerned about the 9/12 crowd.

Mind you this cop is white and a bit conservative, but he did not like the 9/12 crowd and thought they were racist.

614 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:41:05pm

re: #608 Charles

Didn't realize that one was a no-go. Sorry.

615 zora  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:41:17pm

re: #578 Guanxi88

the difference is that democratic party leaders knew it would be political suicide to cheer on these crazies. the repub leadershipe spoke at the rallies and support the idiots.

616 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:42:02pm

re: #615 zora

the difference is that democratic party leaders knew it would be political suicide to cheer on these crazies. the repub leadershipe spoke at the rallies and support the idiots.

Was that because rightist lunatics needed to be persuaded to vote for the GOP?

617 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:43:10pm

The thing that tears it for me with the Doc Cordells of the world is when they dismiss the murderous rocket attacks on Israeli citizens as "those poor dumb Arabs playing around with glorified fireworks". It's a moronic, evil talking point I've heard from My Moonbat Brother (MMB™), over which we've nearly come to blows. It is pure Hamas propaganda.

MMB™ also believes that it wouldn't be so bad for Iran to have nukes, as that would "balance Israel".

For shite's sake, time to go read some Vonnegut.

618 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:43:13pm

re: #608 Charles

If you link to that dishonest creep's website, your comment will be deleted.

which dishonest creep is that?

619 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:43:13pm

re: #609 drcordell

Not Arab states. The Palestinians. Disarm, cease the violence, whatever you wish to call it. The response I have received from several different posters is all the same. The Palestinians stop the violence and peace happens.

Because it is a fact. If there were no Arab terror attacks, then there would be no war.

620 Slap  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:43:42pm

re: #458 marjoriemoon

lol....whassamatta, you not like sulphur water bagels?

621 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:44:24pm

re: #609 drcordell

Not Arab states. The Palestinians. Disarm, cease the violence, whatever you wish to call it. The response I have received from several different posters is all the same. The Palestinians stop the violence and peace happens.

Unfortunately, this hypothesis is a little difficult to test, because the Palestinians have never stopped the violence.

622 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:44:41pm

re: #589 Cato the Elder

In most states, you have to register to vote in primaries. That's what Charles is talking about.

And I hope everyone votes in primaries, not just the general elections.

623 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:44:58pm

re: #618 Spockista

which dishonest creep is that?

It was directed at me. I;d found a cache of leftist (or perhaps they were nascent tea partiers?) signs threatening direct physical violence against the previous admin and members thereof. As it turns out, I had forgotten that the proprietor of that site (whose photos I found through google image search) is persona non grata.

624 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:45:18pm

re: #610 lawhawk

Yes - exactly that - because it completely ignores that the Palestinians purposefully look at the history to cull events to create a mythos - the keys to houses in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv; the 1967 Six Day war led to UN SCR 242, which set out land for peace. That has direct consequences for any peace process between Israel and its enemies.

Except for the fact that UN SCR 242 explicitly sets out the 1967 borders which are all but irrelevant at this point. Which is the exact point I am trying to make. No, you can't change history. Yes, history obviously has bearing on the situation today. But what occurred in 1968 is effectively irrelevant to the resolution of the conflict as it stands today. There have been countless other accords, UN Resolutions and developments since 242.

625 zora  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:46:09pm

re: #616 Guanxi88

i don't know. it's still disgustng if they a pandering.

626 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:46:15pm

re: #603 drcordell

What exactly did I say that you find so ignorant? That the Arab war of 1968 is the root cause of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, but that fact is not currently relevant to the solution of the problem in 2010?

Well that was deeply answered and thoroughly answered by CAto and Lawhawk, but my short form because a full answer would require a book, would be:

1. The issues involved go back long before 1968. An astute discussion of the Arab and Jewish conflict in the region would really start with the aftermath of the First World War.

2. The issues of frustrated nationalism coupled with the interplay and machinations between the Western powers, Russia and the Arabs has always been the the real story.

3. Petropolitics has always been the real leverage.

4. Radicalized Political Islam and or Arab nationalistic hatred of Israel has always been the tiger by the tail that Arab regimes pander to and the force that drives the arab on the street.

627 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:46:16pm

re: #622 Stanley Sea

And I hope everyone votes in primaries, not just the general elections.

I don't, because I refuse to register as a Democrat or a Republican. I am disenfranchised in Maryland.

628 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:46:20pm

re: #623 Guanxi88

It was directed at me. I;d found a cache of leftist (or perhaps they were nascent tea partiers?) signs threatening direct physical violence against the previous admin and members thereof. As it turns out, I had forgotten that the proprietor of that site (whose photos I found through google image search) is persona non grata.

The proprietor of that site sneaked into LGF with a sock puppet account to monitor what was being said about him in a private thread, after he allowed stalkers to post thousands of deranged comments about me at his site.

629 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:47:11pm

re: #628 Charles

The proprietor of that site sneaked into LGF with a sock puppet account to monitor what was being said about him in a private thread, after he allowed stalkers to post thousands of deranged comments about me at his site.

Was that the back-story?

Weird and bizarre - I've stayed away from the inter-blog wars. They look too much like my childhood.

630 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:47:55pm

re: #621 Charles

Unfortunately, this hypothesis is a little difficult to test, because the Palestinians have never stopped the violence.

Exactly right. That's what I am trying to say here. The status quo is violence against Israel. And there will be violence against Israel for as long as the current situation remains. So it is in Israel's best interests to force the Palestinians hand. Because if things just keep going along the path they are now, Israel is going to have rockets raining down on her lands for the next 100 years. And that benefits nobody.

631 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:47:58pm

And one more note -- Zombie's sock puppet account was used extensively to give himself praise at LGF, by posing as someone else. When I say "dishonest creep," I have very good reasons for it.

632 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:48:22pm

re: #609 drcordell

That is great, but you're talking to me. I'm saying that the reason why your views are unacceptable to me is that you ignore the role of the Arab states in inflaming this conflict. I also think a lot of people who focus solely on the behavior of the Palestinians and not at all on the Arab states who prolong the conflict are wrong.

I do think if the Palestinians unilaterally disarmed that what we'd be left with would be obvious foreign agents from the Arab states fighting the Israelis. I also think that it is not that possible for the Palestinians to just suddenly lie down their arms.

If the Palestinians disarmed and did not attack Israel, Israel would not attack them. They might still misuses eminent domain on Palestinians, and do other things that governments do that can be disputed in the courts, civil rights fought for, etc. But violent resistance being met with violent oppression is, well, that's what you get when you violently resist.

The solution has got to involve the Arab states, because they are not going to stop inflaming Palestinian anti-Israeli sentiment, nor material support for terrorism against Israel, and if the US and others were sufficiently weakened, they really would conquer Israel.

633 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:48:26pm

re: #614 Guanxi88

Didn't realize that one was a no-go. Sorry.

Really? Read up on the guy - not from his site though.

634 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:48:27pm

re: #602 SixDegrees

Jesus Christ.

I know, right? "Lord, grant us Divine Guidance, that we may interpret our own gibberish, for we know not what our lawyers have wrought."

Now I see what Charles means. Homeboy, per these regs, may have believed it necessary to register Democrat in order to purchase 87 Octane fuel as opposed to 91 Octane.

yowza

635 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:48:41pm

re: #631 Charles

And one more note -- Zombie's sock puppet account was used extensively to give himself praise at LGF, by posing as someone else. When I say "dishonest creep," I have very good reasons for it.

He or she will go blind praising him or herself. And with a sock? kinky, and not in a good way.

636 zora  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:48:43pm

re: #627 Cato the Elder

same here. i'm a liberal; however, not a registered democrat. no primaries for me.

637 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:49:23pm

re: #633 Stanley Sea

Really? Read up on the guy - not from his site though.

I'll take Charles' word for it - he was there.

638 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:49:53pm

re: #630 drcordell

Exactly right. That's what I am trying to say here. The status quo is violence against Israel. And there will be violence against Israel for as long as the current situation remains. So it is in Israel's best interests to force the Palestinians hand. Because if things just keep going along the path they are now, Israel is going to have rockets raining down on her lands for the next 100 years. And that benefits nobody.

And Israel "forces their hand" how? By offering to let the throats of her children be cut in their sleep?

639 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:50:10pm

re: #623 Guanxi88

It was directed at me. I;d found a cache of leftist (or perhaps they were nascent tea partiers?) signs threatening direct physical violence against the previous admin and members thereof. As it turns out, I had forgotten that the proprietor of that site (whose photos I found through google image search) is persona non grata.

None of them showed a call for direct violence.

Were they crude? Yeah, but none claiming that they will return to DC armed next time like what was at the 9/12 tea party.

I am not asking for rightwingers to stop being conservatives, but there has to be a point when you stand up to what is becoming of your people.

You have the face the facts that there is a faction of the the conservative movement that is WAY out of bounds and is becoming dangerous to our society.

Instead of this faction being smacked down, it's being embraced by the mainstream, hence hurting our society even more.

640 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:50:45pm

re: #631 Charles

And one more note -- Zombie's sock puppet account was used extensively to give himself praise at LGF, by posing as someone else. When I say "dishonest creep," I have very good reasons for it.

So s/he/it is really a he?

Hmm.

641 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:51:00pm

re: #621 Charles

Unfortunately, this hypothesis is a little difficult to test, because the Palestinians have never stopped the violence.

One can only imagine the universal international pressure which would be brought to bear on Israel if they did not give the Palis a state as soon as the morons had the brains to stop shooting and recognize Israel's right to exist.
The pressure would be irresistable.

642 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:51:01pm

re: #628 Charles

The proprietor of that site sneaked into LGF with a sock puppet account to monitor what was being said about him in a private thread, after he allowed stalkers to post thousands of deranged comments about me at his site.

I never knew about the LGF connection, but I've read up on Dollard. Full fledged nutcase and followers with lots of ammo.

643 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:51:36pm

re: #634 Aceofwhat?

I know, right? "Lord, grant us Divine Guidance, that we may interpret our own gibberish, for we know not what our lawyers have wrought."

Now I see what Charles means. Homeboy, per these regs, may have believed it necessary to register Democrat in order to purchase 87 Octane fuel as opposed to 91 Octane.

yowza

Here, you register when you get your driver's license, or get it renewed. You have to argue with them NOT to be registered, which is also an option, but you don't have to declare a party, and everybody gets to vote in every election, the only restriction being that you have to be a resident of the municipality any given issue or candidate applies to. In other words, you just go vote.

644 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:51:40pm

re: #608 Charles

OT - are we having a lounge tonight? I'm gonna need a drink earlier than usual...

645 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:51:47pm

re: #632 Obdicut

That is great, but you're talking to me. I'm saying that the reason why your views are unacceptable to me is that you ignore the role of the Arab states in inflaming this conflict. I also think a lot of people who focus solely on the behavior of the Palestinians and not at all on the Arab states who prolong the conflict are wrong.

I do think if the Palestinians unilaterally disarmed that what we'd be left with would be obvious foreign agents from the Arab states fighting the Israelis. I also think that it is not that possible for the Palestinians to just suddenly lie down their arms.

If the Palestinians disarmed and did not attack Israel, Israel would not attack them. They might still misuses eminent domain on Palestinians, and do other things that governments do that can be disputed in the courts, civil rights fought for, etc. But violent resistance being met with violent oppression is, well, that's what you get when you violently resist.

The solution has got to involve the Arab states, because they are not going to stop inflaming Palestinian anti-Israeli sentiment, nor material support for terrorism against Israel, and if the US and others were sufficiently weakened, they really would conquer Israel.

The reason why I "ignore" the role of the Arab states is because they have absolutely zero motivation to help broker the peace process. It's just not a priority for them. And as much as I wish we could force them to make it a priority, it's just not going to happen. That is the sad reality.

That is why I have focused on Israel and Palestine. And more specifically Israel. Because Israel is the one that has the most to gain from getting this tiresome shit over with.

646 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:51:55pm

re: #639 Spockista

None of them showed a call for direct violence.

Were they crude? Yeah, but none claiming that they will return to DC armed next time like what was at the 9/12 tea party.

I am not asking for rightwingers to stop being conservatives, but there has to be a point when you stand up to what is becoming of your people.

You have the face the facts that there is a faction of the the conservative movement that is WAY out of bounds and is becoming dangerous to our society.

Instead of this faction being smacked down, it's being embraced by the mainstream, hence hurting our society even more.

You didn't see the "I'm here to kill Bush" sign? I thought even that one was sufficiently obvious in its direct threat of physical violence against the President to qualify for an edorsement of political violence at an anti-war protest.

And of course there's a faction that's out of bounds and dangerous. They're always there, and are always barely held in check by civilized folk.

647 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:52:12pm

re: #644 Aceofwhat?

OT - are we having a lounge tonight? I'm gonna need a drink earlier than usual...

87 or 91 octane?

648 solomonpanting  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:52:22pm

re: #624 drcordell

No, you can't change history. Yes, history obviously has bearing on the situation today. But what occurred in 1968 1967 is effectively irrelevant to the resolution of the conflict as it stands today. There have been countless other accords wars, 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 2000 until the present, Arab-sponsored UN Resolutions and developments since 242.

Nows I cans get into it.

649 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:53:23pm

re: #645 drcordell

The reason why I "ignore" the role of the Arab states is because they have absolutely zero motivation to help broker the peace process. It's just not a priority for them. And as much as I wish we could force them to make it a priority, it's just not going to happen. That is the sad reality.

That is why I have focused on Israel and Palestine. And more specifically Israel. Because Israel is the one that has the most to gain from getting this tiresome shit over with.

So you really think the Arabs are incapable of positive political change?

And you still think that, even though those Arab states will continue fueling the conflict, Israel can somehow unilaterally end it?

650 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:53:34pm

re: #644 Aceofwhat?

OT - are we having a lounge tonight? I'm gonna need a drink earlier than usual...

You and me both. Break out the Sapphire with the sexy empress on the label. While plebes like you and me can still get it.

651 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:53:35pm

re: #647 Guanxi88

Yay!

652 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:54:07pm

Wait. Is the person referred to as Zombie - Dollard? Or am I just way confused? Or it doesn't matter really.

653 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:54:34pm

re: #652 Stanley Sea

Wait. Is the person referred to as Zombie - Dollard? Or am I just way confused? Or it doesn't matter really.

I think it's the Z we're talking about, isn't it?

654 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:55:29pm

re: #623 Guanxi88

It was directed at me. I;d found a cache of leftist (or perhaps they were nascent tea partiers?) signs threatening direct physical violence against the previous admin and members thereof. As it turns out, I had forgotten that the proprietor of that site (whose photos I found through google image search) is persona non grata.

for good reason, IIRC...

655 pharmmajor  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:55:32pm

I just checked over at HuffPo and the ABC blog, and not surprisingly, the nuts are jumping on this tragedy and the murder committed by Joe Stack and trying to label all Libertarians as potentially violent right-wing extremists.

656 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:56:07pm

re: #646 Guanxi88

You didn't see the "I'm here to kill Bush" sign? I thought even that one was sufficiently obvious in its direct threat of physical violence against the President to qualify for an edorsement of political violence at an anti-war protest.

And of course there's a faction that's out of bounds and dangerous. They're always there, and are always barely held in check by civilized folk.

No, I didnt see that one. And as I am not a fan of Bush, a call to kill the president is out of bounds.

But, I never saw anything like that.

The worst I have seen at a leftist march is a pro-David Duke supporter at an ANSWER rally.

Also, in PA the Keystone State Skinheads often join in at the anti-war marches there with David Duke signs.

But, the threats of coming to DC armed with guns is frightening.

9/12 was only a few months after the Holocaust Museum shooter.

It is all very concerning.

657 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:56:19pm

re: #638 Cato the Elder

And Israel "forces their hand" how? By offering to let the throats of her children be cut in their sleep?

Come on now, that's a bit much. Israel forces their hand by making it clear that they are deadly serious about land for peace. That the checkpoints in Gaza and the West Bank will be removed, all settlement activity will cease, and official borders be drawn for the creation of a contiguous Palestinian state.

658 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:57:22pm

re: #655 pharmmajor

I just checked over at HuffPo and the ABC blog, and not surprisingly, the nuts are jumping on this tragedy and the murder committed by Joe Stack and trying to label all Libertarians as potentially violent right-wing extremists.

The left will do that, which is why it is imperative that conservatives better police themselves. If we don't get rid of the crazies then we'll get blamed when they do violent and craazy things.

659 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:57:33pm

re: #656 Spockista

No, I didnt see that one. And as I am not a fan of Bush, a call to kill the president is out of bounds.

But, I never saw anything like that.

The worst I have seen at a leftist march is a pro-David Duke supporter at an ANSWER rally.

Also, in PA the Keystone State Skinheads often join in at the anti-war marches there with David Duke signs.

But, the threats of coming to DC armed with guns is frightening.

9/12 was only a few months after the Holocaust Museum shooter.

It is all very concerning.

It's out there.

Skinheads (the nazi kind) got no reason to walk around anywhere; Duke supporters at the ANSWER rally - geez!

660 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:57:42pm

re: #655 pharmmajor

Bedell was a dangerous far right libertarian. There's no disputing that although many seem determined to try.

661 ShaunP  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:57:44pm

re: #646 Guanxi88

You didn't see the "I'm here to kill Bush" sign? I thought even that one was sufficiently obvious in its direct threat of physical violence against the President to qualify for an edorsement of political violence at an anti-war protest.

And of course there's a faction that's out of bounds and dangerous. They're always there, and are always barely held in check by civilized folk.

If anyone had shown up and actually committed violent acts at the time of the anti-war protests, we all would have pointed to the protesters for inciting violence.

662 Jadespring  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:58:33pm

re: #644 Aceofwhat?

OT - are we having a lounge tonight? I'm gonna need a drink earlier than usual...

Hey Ace. I just got home from picking up a batch of wine. I have thirty bottles sitting in a couple of boxes on the floor beside me. Sending one virtually your way. :D

663 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:58:51pm

Mises Institute Youtube page

No lefties but lots of Ron Paul.

664 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:59:01pm

re: #658 Dark_Falcon

The left will do that, which is why it is imperative that conservatives better police themselves. If we don't get rid of the crazies then we'll get blamed when they do violent and craazy things.

Well, it's bit hard to get rid of the crazies when every last crazy is firmly - and inextricably - tied to us by Amazon wish-lists and deceptive voter registrations and other such.

Face it, the conservatives are going to get blamed. I've learned at least that much today.

665 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:59:22pm

re: #662 Jadespring

Hey Ace. I just got home from picking up a batch of wine. I have thirty bottles sitting in a couple of boxes on the floor beside me. Sending one virtually your way. :D

Did you make it yourself?

666 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:59:49pm

re: #69 Cato the Elder

The demographic shift in America is as real as AGW, and far, far scarier to people who see their old automatic WASP privileges threatened.

"Wah! I don't want to press '2' for Spanish!"

Well then, don't, you monolingual moron.

They always insist it's "press 2 for English", which I have never heard.

667 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 1:59:56pm

re: #657 drcordell

Come on now, that's a bit much. Israel forces their hand by making it clear that they are deadly serious about land for peace. That the checkpoints in Gaza and the West Bank will be removed, all settlement activity will cease, and official borders be drawn for the creation of a contiguous Palestinian state.

They cannot do that until they get some show of good faith from the Palis. Given the Palis bad track record, they need to offer a sign of good faith. I'd accept a thoroughgoing reform of their schools to eliminate textbooks that cultivate hatred and glorify Jew murder.

668 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:00:06pm

re: #661 ShaunP

If anyone had shown up and actually committed violent acts at the time of the anti-war protests, we all would have pointed to the protesters for inciting violence.

And we'd have been dead-wrong to do so, because it's obvious that leftists don't engage in violence, never have, never will.

669 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:00:09pm

re: #660 Killgore Trout

Bedell was a dangerous far right libertarian. There's no disputing that although many seem determined to try.

If you are controlling the dictionary, sure. But as I've said, the term Right completely loses usefulness at that point. So sure, call him far right. Call Ted Bundy far right. Call Stalin far right.

670 Jadespring  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:00:19pm

re: #665 Killgore Trout

Did you make it yourself?

I did it at one of those U-brew stores.

671 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:00:43pm

re: #664 Guanxi88

Well, it's bit hard to get rid of the crazies when every last crazy is firmly - and inextricably - tied to us by Amazon wish-lists and deceptive voter registrations and other such.

Face it, the conservatives are going to get blamed. I've learned at least that much today.

We've still got to try. We're not doing anything right now.

672 Slap  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:00:57pm

re: #626 LudwigVanQuixote

Major upding for being one of the first people I've encountered who believes that the aftermath of WWI was HUGELY significant in the history of the Middle East in the 20th century.

Me, I am a believer that WWI was the single most significant human event of the last 100-plus years, and that virtually every global problem we have faced in that time has its roots in that conflict.

Nothing has had a greater effect on human history, imo.

673 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:00:57pm

re: #657 drcordell

Come on now, that's a bit much. Israel forces their hand by making it clear that they are deadly serious about land for peace. That the checkpoints in Gaza and the West Bank will be removed, all settlement activity will cease, and official borders be drawn for the creation of a contiguous Palestinian state.

The naivete is breathtaking.

You admit yourself that the Palestinians have not ever stopped committing violence, and have no intention of doing so. But you think the solution for this is for Israel to remove all the checkpoints in an area controlled by Hamas?

What do you think will happen if Israel does this? The Palestinians will be so grateful that they'll lay down their arms?

You say you're trying to argue from a realist viewpoint, but this idea is blatantly unrealistic.

674 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:01:02pm

re: #659 Guanxi88

It's out there.

Skinheads (the nazi kind) got no reason to walk around anywhere; Duke supporters at the ANSWER rally - geez!

Yep, we tried to post an article about it on Indymedia and they took it down.

David Duke is asking his followers to go to antiwar and anti-Israeli occupation marches and try to recruit leftists, as do the Paultards, Tr00thers and others.

But, back to the David Duke follower, here is the 411 on that one:
[Link: www.onepeoplesproject.com...]

675 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:01:19pm

re: #666 SanFranciscoZionist

They always insist it's "press 2 for English", which I have never heard.

Yeah, you've got to indicate you want another language, at least whenever I get those prompts. The system defaults to english.

676 Jadespring  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:01:37pm

re: #665 Killgore Trout

Did you make it yourself?

I'm going to get a home brew set up this summer though and take advantage of the hundreds of wild fruit trees we have around here.

677 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:01:39pm

re: #669 cliffster

Bullshit. Pretending the word has lost meaning is stupid. Pretending that this guy didn't have a classifiable political identity is also stupid.

678 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:01:40pm

re: #645 drcordell

The reason why I "ignore" the role of the Arab states is because they have absolutely zero motivation to help broker the peace process. It's just not a priority for them. And as much as I wish we could force them to make it a priority, it's just not going to happen. That is the sad reality.

That is why I have focused on Israel and Palestine. And more specifically Israel. Because Israel is the one that has the most to gain from getting this tiresome shit over with.

Palestinian violence = Israeli capitulation. Got it.

679 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:01:53pm

re: #660 Killgore Trout

Bedell was a dangerous far right libertarian. There's no disputing that although many seem determined to try.

So, are you saying that Bedell was a product of right wing libertarianism? Or are you saying that Bedell was representative of right wing libertarianism?

Or are you saying something else? If so, what?

680 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:01:58pm

re: #661 ShaunP

If anyone had shown up and actually committed violent acts at the time of the anti-war protests, we all would have pointed to the protesters for inciting violence.

Those anti-war protests. Now I'm feeling nostalgic. A bunch of white wooly haired Liberals in comfortable clothes and sensible shoes. I imagine the FBI has loads of photos of my 70 year old mama holding her sign.

681 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:02:15pm

re: #75 Stanley Sea

That is one of the most ridiculous complaints of the nativists. Why in the hell should there be a choice for Spanish!!1!

Well, bring it up with AT&T or whomever decided that they didn't want to lose a dime of business.

Free enterprise trumps everything with some folks--but only up to a point.

682 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:02:26pm

re: #670 Jadespring

I did it at one of those U-brew stores.

Cool! I'm going to try my hand at winemaking too once I grow some grapes.

683 ShaunP  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:02:30pm

re: #668 Guanxi88

And we'd have been dead-wrong to do so, because it's obvious that leftists don't engage in violence, never have, never will.

There's a difference between engaging in acts and inciting acts. At some point someone needs to say "Ok, maybe we need to tone it down because the crazies are coming out of the woodworks..."

684 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:02:36pm

re: #671 Dark_Falcon

We've still got to try. We're not doing anything right now.

No, I think it's obvious that so long as we are members of a movement that includes such dangerous types as Goldwater, Reagan, and the like, and so long as anyone with a mental illness who identifies with the right will have his crimes laid at our feet, there's little point in fighting it.

We're the bad guys.

685 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:02:52pm

re: #79 Buck

Would you say that in the early years after 9/11, Trutherism was welcomed on the modern left wing with open arms?

Not the parts I go into alone.

686 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:02:53pm

re: #668 Guanxi88

You forgot the sarc tag. Black Panthers, Weatherman, ELF.

687 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:03:06pm

re: #657 drcordell

Come on now, that's a bit much. Israel forces their hand by making it clear that they are deadly serious about land for peace. That the checkpoints in Gaza and the West Bank will be removed, all settlement activity will cease, and official borders be drawn for the creation of a contiguous Palestinian state.

You mean like the deal Barak offered Arafish at Camp David in 2000 that Arafish moronically walked away from?

688 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:03:18pm

re: #649 Obdicut

So you really think the Arabs are incapable of positive political change?

And you still think that, even though those Arab states will continue fueling the conflict, Israel can somehow unilaterally end it?

The Arab states can only continue fueling the conflict as long as Israel maintains effective control over the disputed territories. If Israel can effectively cut itself loose from all control, the Palestinians might realize that their beef lies with the Arab states as well. It's the settlements and the military checkpoints within Gaza and the West Bank that are the symbols of Israeli "oppression."

689 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:03:30pm

re: #684 Guanxi88

No, I think it's obvious that so long as we are members of a movement that includes such dangerous types as Goldwater, Reagan, and the like, and so long as anyone with a mental illness who identifies with the right will have his crimes laid at our feet, there's little point in fighting it.

We're the bad guys.

Oh quit it.

690 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:03:39pm

re: #650 Cato the Elder

You and me both. Break out the Sapphire with the sexy empress on the label. While plebes like you and me can still get it.

peeling limes as we speak...

691 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:03:52pm

Mises Institute on Liberalism

Don't let the facts get in the way.

692 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:04:15pm

re: #664 Guanxi88

Maybe if you didn't say that the solution to the crazies was 'giving them the cold shoulder', which didn't involve actually doing anything about them whatsoever besides not giving them committee chairs, that'd help.

693 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:04:25pm

re: #683 ShaunP

There's a difference between engaging in acts and inciting acts. At some point someone needs to say "Ok, maybe we need to tone it down because the crazies are coming out of the woodworks..."

Incitement is such a narrow concept, and such a tenuous thing, that I think it's best left alone altogether.

694 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:04:50pm

re: #692 Obdicut

Maybe if you didn't say that the solution to the crazies was 'giving them the cold shoulder', which didn't involve actually doing anything about them whatsoever besides not giving them committee chairs, that'd help.

Right - Bachmann's the same as the shooter. Understand you perfectly.

695 pharmmajor  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:04:50pm

re: #658 Dark_Falcon

The left will do that, which is why it is imperative that conservatives better police themselves. If we don't get rid of the crazies then we'll get blamed when they do violent and craazy things.

But the libertarians (at least the majority of us) don't go with the conservatives. We just get lumped in with them when lunatics like Stack and Bedell go out and wreak havoc.

re: #660 Killgore Trout

Bedell was a dangerous far right libertarian. There's no disputing that although many seem determined to try.

I'm not denying that, but there's no reason to lump us all in as far-right violent extremists just because of the actions of a few.

696 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:05:13pm

re: #689 Stanley Sea

Oh quit it.

What? I can't indulge in a little wallowing?

697 ShaunP  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:05:25pm

re: #694 Guanxi88

Right - Bachmann's the same as the shooter. Understand you perfectly.

I don't think anyone is saying that...

698 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:06:19pm

re: #694 Guanxi88

Right - Bachmann's the same as the shooter. Understand you perfectly.

You are forgetting that Ron Paul won the straw poll at CPAC. The Birchers were co-sponsors. Then there was that speech on Lincoln.

699 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:06:21pm

re: #662 Jadespring

Hey Ace. I just got home from picking up a batch of wine. I have thirty bottles sitting in a couple of boxes on the floor beside me. Sending one virtually your way. :D

I'll have Red!

700 freetoken  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:06:24pm

Well, someone finally posted in the spinoffs the current Malkin headline... of Bedell being a registered Dem.

Talk about trying to move the spotlight... far be it from actually looking at what the guy wrote, let's look at the box he checked when he registered.

As I noted in the spinoff comment, I'm still an (R) according to San Diego county. However, the GOP hasn't gotten my vote in several years now.

701 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:06:37pm

re: #686 prairiefire

You forgot the sarc tag. Black Panthers, Weatherman, ELF.

Irrelevant. All happened decades ago (for the first two), and no similarity whatsoever with any known ideology for the last one, though the methodology hints at a militia/anti-government motivation.

702 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:06:39pm

re: #657 drcordell

Come on now, that's a bit much. Israel forces their hand by making it clear that they are deadly serious about land for peace. That the checkpoints in Gaza and the West Bank will be removed, all settlement activity will cease, and official borders be drawn for the creation of a contiguous Palestinian state.

Right. Remove the checkpoints and you have thirteen suicide murderer attacks every day starting the very first day. That's an option.

You want to buy a used unicorn? I've only had sex with her three or four times.

703 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:06:50pm

re: #696 Guanxi88

What? I can't indulge in a little wallowing?

No!! Better when you debate intelligently.

704 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:06:55pm

re: #688 drcordell

The Arab states can only continue fueling the conflict as long as Israel maintains effective control over the disputed territories. If Israel can effectively cut itself loose from all control, the Palestinians might realize that their beef lies with the Arab states as well. It's the settlements and the military checkpoints within Gaza and the West Bank that are the symbols of Israeli "oppression."

LMAO! You think that Arabs raised since birth to hate and murder Jews will suddenly realize that they've been duped by other Arabs because the Israelis pull back?! That's foolish. If Israel were to pull back the Arabs would simply advance a new set of demands. They won't settle for anything less than a judenrein Palestine.

705 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:07:14pm

re: #688 drcordell

The Arab states can only continue fueling the conflict as long as Israel maintains effective control over the disputed territories.

Why do you believe this? There is the issue of the holy sites as well, for example.

If Israel can effectively cut itself loose from all control, the Palestinians might realize that their beef lies with the Arab states as well. It's the settlements and the military checkpoints within Gaza and the West Bank that are the symbols of Israeli "oppression."

So your plan involves that something 'might' happen. Great.

Again, you're not at all giving any agency to the Arab states to change. Why? Do you believe they're incapable of changing?

706 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:07:43pm

re: #109 LudwigVanQuixote

We should be honest with ourselves here... If ice cream is parve, it has no cream in it :(

One of the hardest things for me as a BT was not keeping kosher but the notion that the kosher option was always just as good.

That is why I eat my dessert before my meal sometimes :)

Blu Greenberg wrote somewhere that one of her kids became a vegetarian in high school just so he could always have his ice cream after dinner.

707 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:08:38pm

re: #668 Guanxi88

And we'd have been dead-wrong to do so, because it's obvious that leftists don't engage in violence, never have, never will.

Are you high? Has someone taken over the Guanxi88 account? Is that you, taxfreekiller?

Really, I've never seen you like this.

708 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:08:51pm

re: #697 ShaunP

I don't think anyone is saying that...

Obdicut's reference to the cold shoulder is a reference to my argument - some time back - that Bachmann isn't running the show in the GOP, and the proof of that is that while her presence in the party is tolerated, she's not in any leadership position. Evidently, that won't guarantee against the mentally ill shooting up the Pentagon, or something, and so it's unsatisfactory to my colleague.

709 solomonpanting  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:09:03pm

re: #688 drcordell

The Arab states can only continue fueling the conflict as long as Israel maintains effective control over the disputed territories.

So, what was their excuse before the '67 War?
Oh yeah, Israel's existence.

710 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:09:14pm

re: #694 Guanxi88

Heh. Sorry, dude, but your flail is kind of extreme today. You've minimized the Birchers, the Tea Party types, Bachmann, and everyone else using extreme rhetoric on the right. You seem willing to actively kick out those who engage in violence, but only when you make sure to say that they weren't actually on the 'right' anyway, first.

711 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:09:14pm

re: #707 Cato the Elder

Are you high? Has someone taken over the Guanxi88 account? Is that you, taxfreekiller?

Really, I've never seen you like this.

I'm not high, just having a good time.

712 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:09:36pm

re: #688 drcordell

The Arab states can only continue fueling the conflict as long as Israel maintains effective control over the disputed territories. If Israel can effectively cut itself loose from all control, the Palestinians might realize that their beef lies with the Arab states as well. It's the settlements and the military checkpoints within Gaza and the West Bank that are the symbols of Israeli "oppression."

So how well did that work in Gaza? Just being realistic here.

713 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:10:14pm

re: #710 Obdicut

Heh. Sorry, dude, but your flail is kind of extreme today. You've minimized the Birchers, the Tea Party types, Bachmann, and everyone else using extreme rhetoric on the right. You seem willing to actively kick out those who engage in violence, but only when you make sure to say that they weren't actually on the 'right' anyway, first.

Well, since the party can't purge its members, I think you're just going to have to remain disappointed.

714 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:10:31pm

re: #673 Charles

The naivete is breathtaking.

You admit yourself that the Palestinians have not ever stopped committing violence, and have no intention of doing so. But you think the solution for this is for Israel to remove all the checkpoints in an area controlled by Hamas?

What do you think will happen if Israel does this? The Palestinians will be so grateful that they'll lay down their arms?

You say you're trying to argue from a realist viewpoint, but this idea is blatantly unrealistic.

I think that Israel needs to give the Palestinians a chance to clean their own house. The checkpoints that prevent the free movement amongst various "palestinian" lands are the main face of Israeli control. Israel should give the Palestinians a contiguous chunk of land to call their own. Seal it off, maintain the wall, maintain rigorous checkpoints for anyone who wishes to cross into Israel. But end the checkpoints for Palestinian movement within the West Bank and Gaza.

I'm not saying capitulate to the Palestinians, I'm saying remove the overt symbols of the control they believe Israel has over them. Still use drones and satellites and whatever infiltrative intelligence techniques Israel wishes to keep tabs on Hamas. But cease the settlements, cease the internal checkpoints, and give the Palis a contiguous chuck of land. Then if they continue to fuck it up, they have nobody to blame but themselves.

All I'm saying is, the current situation is untenable. Israel is unhappy manning their checkpoints, the Palestinians are unhappy with the checkpoints. And quite frankly the checkpoints haven't stopped the violence. Why not try and take a different approach. If it fails you can always just move back in?

715 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:11:05pm

re: #707 Cato the Elder

Are you high? Has someone taken over the Guanxi88 account? Is that you, taxfreekiller?

Really, I've never seen you like this.

(I'm outta snuff......)

716 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:11:13pm

re: #688 drcordell

Or for that matter, how well did that work in Lebanon?

Just continuing to be realistic...

717 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:11:24pm

re: #713 Guanxi88

The party could, actually, do quite a lot about Bachmann. They could also, say, not have nominees attend CPAC, with the Birchers.

Transparent and utterly weak arguments. No point in really continuing this with you today-- you're just out to have a good time.

718 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:11:27pm

re: #149 sffilk

You know, I wish people would explain to these "pundits" that the ACLU was created originally to protect Jewish rights that were being denied them here in the U.S. But NO!!!, it's so much easier to spread lies and stuff like that.

Now granted, there are times the ACLU has done stuff I disagree with, but you have it correctly about the Constitution being applied fairly to all groups.

The ACLU is sort of obsessively non-partial in whose case they'll take on. Sooner or later, they offend nearly everyone.

719 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:11:43pm

re: #696 Guanxi88

What? I can't indulge in a little wallowing?

Let's go get a beer for you to cry into...I'll buy the first round.

720 drcordell  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:11:56pm

I gotta run, happy hour time. I'll catch you lizards later. I appreciate that the discussion was able to settle into a nice tone towards the end. I hate to just bounce like this, we'll have to continue this later. Have a great weekend everyone!

721 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:11:57pm

re: #684 Guanxi88

dude. i'm on the right too. but the swooning Scarlet bit is...well...a questionable tactic.

i have no problem embracing the crazy...in order to apply the proper chokehold and purge it from my ranks. Makes us more principled as a result, IMHO. if there are things about this guy that closely resemble rightwing crazy, then it's all the more reminder to set myself against rightwing crazy on a daily basis.

i think it enhances the balance of my positions, rather than weakening them.

722 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:12:09pm

re: #708 Guanxi88

I have heard Laura Ingram and sean Hannity both state that she and Palin are leading the revival of the Republicans.

723 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:12:15pm

re: #715 Guanxi88

(I'm outta snuff...)

Bingo.

724 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:12:31pm

re: #694 Guanxi88

Right - Bachmann's the same as the shooter. Understand you perfectly.

Get LVQ to explain the Talmudic "evil hath no messenger" concept to you sometime.

725 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:12:56pm

re: #717 Obdicut

The party could, actually, do quite a lot about Bachmann. They could also, say, not have nominees attend CPAC, with the Birchers.

Transparent and utterly weak arguments. No point in really continuing this with you today-- you're just out to have a good time.

Isn't that what we're all here for?

Honestly, though, I'm not sure I'd want the GOP to enforce discipline like that, any more than I'd want the DNC to regulate their guys' attending leftist events.

726 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:13:28pm

From what it appears is that extreme leftist groups are more inclined to vandalism and the right gun based violence.

I am actually pro-gun rights, but they are for defense not offense.

727 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:13:28pm

re: #627 Cato the Elder

I don't, because I refuse to register as a Democrat or a Republican. I am disenfranchised in Maryland.

Move to Indiana, you don't have to register as either. You'll have to get used to cornfields which seems to be a problem for some.

728 ShaunP  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:13:31pm

I wonder how many tea-partiers are members of family institutes that argue questionable television programming leads to acting out...

729 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:13:44pm

re: #724 Cato the Elder

Get LVQ to explain the Talmudic "evil hath no messenger" concept to you sometime.

I've heard it - and before him - and trust me, Bachmann's the messenger of the voices she hears in her fillings, and this shooter was the messenger of madness. Different degrees is all.

730 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:14:15pm

How do we sort out the mental illness of depression from the politics?

Which is the real motivator?

Suicide by Cop?
[Link: www.baywood.com...]
[Link: www.policeone.com...]

I honestly ask how we sort one from the other.

731 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:14:33pm

re: #714 drcordell

No downding this time, but I do not agree. The Arabs will take any such withdrawal as a sign of weakness and then step up their attacks. Any withdrawels need to be accompanied by Pali concessions, otherwise we further encourage terror.

732 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:14:41pm

re: #700 freetoken

Well, someone finally posted in the spinoffs the current Malkin headline... of Bedell being a registered Dem.

Talk about trying to move the spotlight... far be it from actually looking at what the guy wrote, let's look at the box he checked when he registered.

As I noted in the spinoff comment, I'm still an (R) according to San Diego county. However, the GOP hasn't gotten my vote in several years now.

heh, you and Charles are pretty laid back with the registration thing//

733 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:14:54pm

re: #726 Spockista

Offense against a few deer and turkeys.

734 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:14:58pm

re: #711 Guanxi88

I'm not high, just having a good time.

Well, that's allowed. Soon enough the corporations will be taking that away from us, too.

735 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:15:12pm

re: #720 drcordell

I gotta run, happy hour time. I'll catch you lizards later. I appreciate that the discussion was able to settle into a nice tone towards the end. I hate to just bounce like this, we'll have to continue this later. Have a great weekend everyone!

Enjoy the IAW rally, bozo.

736 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:15:19pm

re: #725 Guanxi88

Isn't that what we're all here for?

Honestly, though, I'm not sure I'd want the GOP to enforce discipline like that, any more than I'd want the DNC to regulate their guys' attending leftist events.

Hell it was the whole GOP leadership outside in front of that podium at the after 9/12 speech organized by Bachmann. The one with the big banner of Auschwitz.

737 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:15:30pm

re: #734 Cato the Elder

Well, that's allowed. Soon enough the corporations will be taking that away from us, too.

Not so! They'll just jack up the price, lower the quality, and off-shore the tech support.

738 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:15:31pm

re: #710 Obdicut

Heh. Sorry, dude, but your flail is kind of extreme today. You've minimized the Birchers, the Tea Party types, Bachmann, and everyone else using extreme rhetoric on the right. You seem willing to actively kick out those who engage in violence, but only when you make sure to say that they weren't actually on the 'right' anyway, first.

I would say that it is very clear that dems, and you seem to be included, seek to take anything you think may seem negative and blow it up to the nth degree to try and discredit republicans. And then add in trying to lump in guys like Stack and this guy yesterday.

At the end of the day, it's all about trying to slander the republican party. That's why these things are posted in such a celebratory way. Yay! He's a right-wing radical! Yipee!

739 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:15:58pm

re: #718 SanFranciscoZionist

The ACLU is sort of obsessively non-partial in whose case they'll take on. Sooner or later, they offend nearly everyone.

Which is why they can be trusted.

740 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:16:06pm

re: #733 prairiefire

Offense against a few deer and turkeys.

I'm a vegan, but if they are food for your survival that is part of defending yourself from starvation.

741 zora  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:16:32pm

re: #725 Guanxi88

the republicans don't mind discipline when it includes repeating nonsensical talking points verbatim and calling anyone a rino that won't fall in line.

742 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:16:57pm

re: #740 Spockista

I will be sure to tell my big, burly brother that./

743 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:17:09pm

re: #725 Guanxi88

Isn't that what we're all here for?

Honestly, though, I'm not sure I'd want the GOP to enforce discipline like that, any more than I'd want the DNC to regulate their guys' attending leftist events.

disagree. Buckley was right. the hateful groups can go screw themselves.

the tent ain't that big, my friend...

744 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:17:46pm

re: #231 marjoriemoon

hehe! Well I have to say that Chase is undoubtedly the worst. They were the first to charge 25% interest after one late payment on a credit card. That was back, oh maybe 10-12 years ago.

May I interrupt to say that Obama stopped this "legal" usury??

Their customer service is non-existent. They hung up on me, as I was in midsentence explaining my payment was sitting in their account, I heard "click". Three of them did this to me. Obviously, they are told to hang up on customers. Either that, or they are those Japanese robots we've heard tell about.

Japanese robots would never be rude enough to hang up on a customer.

745 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:17:57pm

re: #741 zora

the republicans don't mind discipline when it includes repeating nonsensical talking points verbatim and calling anyone a rino that won't fall in line.

"let's start with a blank piece of paper"

746 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:18:16pm

re: #742 prairiefire

I will be sure to tell my big, burly brother that./

okay, I am sure my opine that he has a right to hunt to defend himself against starvation will make his day! LOL!

747 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:18:55pm

re: #730 Rightwingconspirator

How do we sort out the mental illness of depression from the politics?

Which is the real motivator?

Suicide by Cop?
[Link: www.baywood.com...]
[Link: www.policeone.com...]

I honestly ask how we sort one from the other.

ooh...very interesting.

748 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:19:08pm

re: #744 SanFranciscoZionist

Japanese robots would never be rude enough to hang up on a customer.

HA! For come reason, Eco's "Department of Mechanical Avunculogratulation" just popped into my mind!

749 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:19:22pm

re: #740 Spockista

I'm a vegan, but if they are food for your survival that is part of defending yourself from starvation.

I once shot a cabbage by accident, does that count?

750 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:19:53pm

re: #738 cliffster

I have no idea where that accusation is coming from. From my perspective, I'm actually saying something slightly less emphatic about this than Charles is.

I'm saying that the right-wing is embracing the crazy. I don't particularly care about labeling this guy as 'right-wing'.

The accusation that I"m doing it just to smear the GOP is also weird. I'd rather not smear the GOP. I'd rather that they didn't have their leadership giving talks at CPAC with the Birchers present. Do you want me to just ignore it?

751 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:19:57pm

re: #746 Spockista

MidWest Liberals use guns for sport!

752 Slap  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:20:10pm

re: #728 ShaunP

In the "throw out the baby with the bathwater" ethos so prevalent today, I'm always amused that many of the crowd who support Fox news, especially when the Hannitys and the Humes spout their moral indignation, are so silent on their parent company's "salacious" broadcast programming.

Ah, well. A wise woman I know (ahem -- a PARTICULARLY wise woman) is fond of saying that we all lead messy lives somehow (i.e., vegetarians who smoke, etc.), and that most people have a hard time drawing a consistent line all the time. We're a bundle of contradictions as a species, for sure....

753 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:20:29pm

re: #749 Spare O'Lake

I once shot a cabbage by accident, does that count?

did you make kraut out of it? I just got a kraut recipe I want to try...

754 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:21:05pm

re: #746 Spockista

You should post more often. It's been a raucous good time, lately.

755 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:21:47pm

re: #751 prairiefire

MidWest Liberals use guns for sport!

Here we use them for defense. I like to shoot, but I don't own a gun.

756 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:22:32pm

re: #749 Spare O'Lake

I once shot a cabbage by accident, does that count?

what were you shooting at??

757 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:23:02pm

re: #707 Cato the Elder

Are you high? Has someone taken over the Guanxi88 account? Is that you, taxfreekiller?

Really, I've never seen you like this.

re: #715 Guanxi88

(I'm outta snuff...)

re: #723 Stanley Sea

Bingo.

Got a bit of Best Brown #4 - a strong pipe tobacco. Pounded it to dust in the mortar and pestle.

Insufflated same.

Much better now!

So, how is everyone? What's been going on?

758 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:23:20pm

re: #753 Spockista

did you make kraut out of it? I just got a kraut recipe I want to try...

No, but my Dad shredded quite a few krauts in WWII.

759 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:23:21pm

re: #756 Aceofwhat?

what were you shooting at??

Musta used a slug gun.

760 Digital Display  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:23:40pm

re: #756 Aceofwhat?

what were you shooting at??

An attempted suicide gone wrong...

761 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:23:44pm

re: #752 Slap

human = fallible. sad but true.

762 Gus  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:23:46pm

Some repeat information here:

John Bedell and Ludwig von Mises
By David Weigel 3/5/10 3:39 PM

ThinkProgress points to a strange item on the Bazpedia page of Pentagon metro shooter John Patrick Bedell, buried below the incomprehensible kookery (”I have posted the image to the right in order to illustrate the use of cannabis as a monetary system using digital financial instruments“) and a brief appreciation of libertarian economist Ludwig von Mises.

I am looking for collaborators for ongoing commercial and intellectual efforts. Email to jpbedell at mises.com is welcome!

ThinkProgress states that mises.com belongs to the Ludwig Von Mises Institute. Actually, the Institute is located at mises.org. But type in “mises.com” and you go to mises.org/community, a site that “features forums, live chat, user blogs, albums, groups, and more” for fans and supporters of the libertarian think tank. A Whois search says the domain is owned by Network Solutions, LLC, purchased in 1999 and bought up through 2015. I put in a call to the Institute to figure this out, but for now it’s more evidence that Bedell was a deranged person who grabbed onto various incompatible ideologies.

UPDATE: Commenter “albeit” uses another registration service and discovers that the Mises Institute does, in fact, own this address.

Already posted above.

Also watch the video Killgore posted with regards to Mises.

763 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:24:37pm

re: #756 Aceofwhat?

what were you shooting at??

That pesky wabbit.

764 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:25:03pm

re: #754 prairiefire

I like it here. I like how Charles has taken a stand on some very deep issues in the political world as of late.

I think I agree with him 95% of the time.re: #758 Spare O'Lake

No, but my Dad shredded quite a few krauts in WWII.

Oh, your pop is an Inglorious Basterd?????

Tell him he is now one of my heros!

765 cliffster  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:25:14pm

Gotta run. Interesting times. Probably be back online later tonight, be safe folks.

766 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:25:38pm

re: #760 HoosierHoops

An attempted suicide gone wrong...

In one ear, out the other, and straight into the garden.

767 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:26:20pm

re: #738 cliffster

I would say that it is very clear that dems, and you seem to be included, seek to take anything you think may seem negative and blow it up to the nth degree to try and discredit republicans. And then add in trying to lump in guys like Stack and this guy yesterday.

At the end of the day, it's all about trying to slander the republican party. That's why these things are posted in such a celebratory way. Yay! He's a right-wing radical! Yipee!

Ahem. This guy is way too fresh to categorize, though I see him as tending to the Kacynski lone-nut style. Stack is a fairly pure anti-tax, anti-authority freak, not especially rightist. It's the TP and right blogs that seem to be embracing him.

768 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:26:36pm

re: #764 Spockista

I like it here. I like how Charles has taken a stand on some very deep issues in the political world as of late.

Yeah. Before it was just lipstick shades and back tattoos. Thank God he started to care about life//

769 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:27:42pm

re: #759 Guanxi88

Musta used a slug gun.

Brand new .22 rifle.

770 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:28:00pm

re: #744 SanFranciscoZionist

Japanese robots would never be rude enough to hang up on a customer.

You must have missed "Samurai Receptionist".

771 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:28:08pm

re: #768 Aceofwhat?

Yeah. Before it was just lipstick shades and back tattoos. Thank God he started to care about life//

nothin wrong with lipstick shades and back tatts, esp when put together properly....

772 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:28:08pm

re: #765 cliffster

Gotta run. Interesting times. Probably be back online later tonight, be safe folks.

I'll share some of Jade's wine with you.

773 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:28:33pm

re: #762 Gus 802

What made him crazy, his obvious psychological issues for which he was hospitalized 4 times or his politics? Can you really take his politics seriously knowing he's been put in a mental hospital multiple times? What about his proposal a few years ago that the pentagon fund his smart weapons program?

774 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:28:35pm

re: #771 Spockista

nothin wrong with lipstick shades and back tatts, esp when put together properly...

well played

775 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:28:47pm

This is been fun this afternoon, just monitoring, doing some actual programming work here, personal stuff, mainly for fun, but productive.

Carry on Dr. Cordell... this is interesting.

776 Digital Display  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:29:11pm

re: #755 Spockista

Here we use them for defense. I like to shoot, but I don't own a gun.

That's OK.. I bought a 007 9mm pistol PPK years ago.. I've yet to fire it or own a 9mm shell..
It's on my list to do...

777 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:29:19pm

re: #698 Stanley Sea

You are forgetting that Ron Paul won the straw poll at CPAC. The Birchers were co-sponsors. Then there was that speech on Lincoln.

I had to stop talking to my life-long Democrat father about CPAC, and the stuff I watched through Charles' links, because about the time I mentioned that some of these folks don't like Lincoln, he started to turn dark red in an unhealthy way for a man in his sixties fighting cancer.

778 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:30:16pm

re: #777 SanFranciscoZionist

Prayers for his health. I didn't know that.

779 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:30:28pm

re: #776 HoosierHoops

That's OK.. I bought a 007 9mm pistol PPK years ago.. I've yet to fire it or own a 9mm shell..
It's on my list to do...

About to buy my wife her first revolver. Never trusted a woman enough to equip her for deadly violence at a distance.

She's asked me to up the life insurance.

Ought I to be concerned?

780 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:30:56pm

re: #777 SanFranciscoZionist

I had to stop talking to my life-long Democrat father about CPAC, and the stuff I watched through Charles' links, because about the time I mentioned that some of these folks don't like Lincoln, he started to turn dark red in an unhealthy way for a man in his sixties fighting cancer.

Yeah, that these loons are serious is very threatening.

What is so depressing about humans in particular is that it really was not so long ago that we put fascism down. Two generations is too short a time to have that bad a memory.

781 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:30:57pm

re: #709 solomonpanting

So, what was their excuse before the '67 War?
Oh yeah, Israel's existence.

What was their excuse at Hebron in 1929? Oh yeah, the Jews' existence.

782 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:31:06pm

re: #776 HoosierHoops

That's OK.. I bought a 007 9mm pistol PPK years ago.. I've yet to fire it or own a 9mm shell..
It's on my list to do...

a springfield 9mm is my dream firearm...

783 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:31:19pm

re: #775 Walter L. Newton

This is been fun this afternoon, just monitoring, doing some actual programming work here, personal stuff, mainly for fun, but productive.

Carry on Dr. Cordell... this is interesting.

good for you. i work from home on Fridays but no sales today, not even a nibble. good for posting...bad for plan to purchase LGF yacht and sail us around like a bunch of scaly scientologists...

784 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:32:13pm

re: #779 Guanxi88

About to buy my wife her first revolver. Never trusted a woman enough to equip her for deadly violence at a distance.

She's asked me to up the life insurance.

Ought I to be concerned?

yeah..I wud sleep with one eye open if I were you...

785 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:32:23pm

re: #779 Guanxi88

About to buy my wife her first revolver. Never trusted a woman enough to equip her for deadly violence at a distance.

She's asked me to up the life insurance.

Ought I to be concerned?

well...concerned for who? because it sounds like she's going to be ok either way...so...

786 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:32:37pm

OK all time to get ready to meet the queen :)

I hope you all have a fabulous weekend! Stay scaly! Be safe. Be happy and remember that people do make a difference when they decide to do the right things.

787 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:32:59pm

re: #784 Spockista

yeah..I wud sleep with one eye open if I were you...

I got two cats, three kids, a crazy dog, and a half-cajun wife - I always sleep with both eyes open

788 Spilchy  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:33:27pm

This is so pathetic. The SPLC, Charles, the Right and the Left are all using this dead man to push their agenda. Read the following AP story on Yahoo! news.
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

This guy was severely mentally ill, had a long documented history of it and recently was so erratic in his behavior that his folks even warned authorities. This isn't about right wing kooks, "Troofers," Neo Nazis, blah, blah, blah. Its about a severely sick man who snapped. All of us who know someone who may be mentally ill and can "understand." I am in no way absolving his actions. This isn't about politics, and as much as I enjoy this blog for years; I have to humbly disagree with the intent of this posting. There are more level headed, academic methods to defend a position. This scrapes the bottom like the rest of Left and Right wingnuts. Just my $0.02. Just trying to offer another angle.

789 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:33:28pm

re: #749 Spare O'Lake

I once shot a cabbage by accident, does that count?

What were you aiming at?

790 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:34:11pm

re: #789 SanFranciscoZionist

What were you aiming at?

the rhubarb.

791 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:34:39pm

re: #776 HoosierHoops

That's OK.. I bought a 007 9mm pistol PPK years ago.. I've yet to fire it or own a 9mm shell..
It's on my list to do...

Hurry. IIRC, singapore will spank you for having that around. and i don't mean that in a tee-hee-feather-handcuffs sorta way...

792 Digital Display  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:34:40pm

re: #777 SanFranciscoZionist

I had to stop talking to my life-long Democrat father about CPAC, and the stuff I watched through Charles' links, because about the time I mentioned that some of these folks don't like Lincoln, he started to turn dark red in an unhealthy way for a man in his sixties fighting cancer.

My pops is a life-long dem.. He has a picture of him shaking hands with JFK in a crowd mounted in the living room...
He is like old school Dem..

793 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:34:59pm

re: #778 prairiefire

Prayers for his health. I didn't know that.

Yeah, SFZ, prayers.

794 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:35:06pm

re: #787 Guanxi88

Cajun! Has she ever thrown an ax at a beer can nailed to a stump?

795 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:35:15pm

re: #786 LudwigVanQuixote

OK all time to get ready to meet the queen :)

I hope you all have a fabulous weekend! Stay scaly! Be safe. Be happy and remember that people do make a difference when they decide to do the right things.

have a fantastic time-

796 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:35:23pm

re: #787 Guanxi88

I got two cats, three kids, a crazy dog, and a half-cajun wife - I always sleep with both eyes open

you're a man who leads a life of excitement...I almost envy you...does the wife cook cajun?...that would make up for a whole lot...

797 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:35:35pm

re: #779 Guanxi88

About to buy my wife her first revolver. Never trusted a woman enough to equip her for deadly violence at a distance.

She's asked me to up the life insurance.

Ought I to be concerned?

If you run out of snuff often enough, yeah.

798 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:35:42pm

re: #794 prairiefire

Cajun! Has she ever thrown an ax at a beer can nailed to a stump?

No, that was her granny you;'re thinking of.

799 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:36:06pm

re: #796 Spockista

you're a man who leads a life of excitement...I almost envy you...does the wife cook cajun?...that would make up for a whole lot...

Nope - she's not a great cook.

800 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:36:28pm

re: #786 LudwigVanQuixote

OK all time to get ready to meet the queen :)

I hope you all have a fabulous weekend! Stay scaly! Be safe. Be happy and remember that people do make a difference when they decide to do the right things.

Gut Shabbos, Doctor.

801 Guanxi88  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:36:36pm

re: #797 Stanley Sea

If you run out of snuff often enough, yeah.

Ya know, she's got no idea I even do it.

Thinks I've got some sorta sinus or allergy deal going.

802 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:36:48pm

re: #799 Guanxi88

Nope - she's not a great cook.

I suggest you drink...heavily...

803 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:36:51pm

re: #778 prairiefire

Prayers for his health. I didn't know that.

Thank you. Doctor is very optimistic, but his platelet count sucks, which is slowing chemotherapy to a crawl. To get the platelets up, he's had to completely stop drinking, which is something I would have bet good money against. It's a been a sort of nutty year.

804 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:37:48pm

re: #786 LudwigVanQuixote

OK all time to get ready to meet the queen :)

I hope you all have a fabulous weekend! Stay scaly! Be safe. Be happy and remember that people do make a difference when they decide to do the right things.

Good Shabbos, Ludwig and Alouette and everyone. (I know you're probably off already. It's still light here.)

805 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:38:01pm

re: #780 LudwigVanQuixote

Italy is basically a fascist state again. It's pretty fucking sad.

806 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:38:33pm

re: #789 SanFranciscoZionist

What were you aiming at?

Dat pesky wabbit!
(missed the little bugger, but scared the crap out of it)

807 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:38:53pm

re: #231 marjoriemoon

hehe! Well I have to say that Chase is undoubtedly the worst. They were the first to charge 25% interest after one late payment on a credit card. That was back, oh maybe 10-12 years ago.

May I interrupt to say that Obama stopped this "legal" usury??

Their customer service is non-existent. They hung up on me, as I was in midsentence explaining my payment was sitting in their account, I heard "click". Three of them did this to me. Obviously, they are told to hang up on customers. Either that, or they are those Japanese robots we've heard tell about.

Uh - during the several months between passage and enactment of the recent credit card reform legislation, every major credit card issuer jacked up their rates across the board, before the new, more restrictive rules on rate changes took effect. I've never been late on a payment - ever - in twenty years, and pay my balance in full every month (I know, that's a negative mark in the eyes of the credit card companies, but still..) and saw my rate jump from 11% last fall to 24.95% today. I never pay interested, because I never carry a balance, but those usurious rates you're talking about are now the norm for everyone - at a time when Federal interest rates remain at historic lows of 0%, and other interest rates are similarly bottomed.

So you can say that, if you like, but there are a lot more people paying such rates now than at any time in the past, and it's thanks mostly to the reforms that were passed without backdated protections to the date the bills were passed.

808 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:39:15pm

re: #804 SanFranciscoZionist

Good Shabbos, Ludwig and Alouette and everyone. (I know you're probably off already. It's still light here.)

Gut shabbos!

(haven't said that in years...lol!)

809 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:39:21pm

re: #803 SanFranciscoZionist

Sorry to hear that, SFZ. It doesn't happen to be leukemia, does it?

810 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:39:35pm

re: #788 Spilchy

This is so pathetic. The SPLC, Charles, the Right and the Left are all using this dead man to push their agenda. Read the following AP story on Yahoo! news.
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

This guy was severely mentally ill, had a long documented history of it and recently was so erratic in his behavior that his folks even warned authorities. This isn't about right wing kooks, "Troofers," Neo Nazis, blah, blah, blah. Its about a severely sick man who snapped. All of us who know someone who may be mentally ill and can "understand." I am in no way absolving his actions. This isn't about politics, and as much as I enjoy this blog for years; I have to humbly disagree with the intent of this posting. There are more level headed, academic methods to defend a position. This scrapes the bottom like the rest of Left and Right wingnuts. Just my $0.02. Just trying to offer another angle.

See my #464.

811 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:39:37pm

re: #806 Spare O'Lake

Dat pesky wabbit!
(missed the little bugger, but scared the crap out of it)

So you had cole slaw instead of rabbit stew for dinner that night?

812 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:39:44pm

FYI there's a new thread up above the Colbert one. :-)

813 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:40:14pm

re: #788 Spilchy


i think you had a semblance of a point in there but i lost it amidst the chaff there.

Rightwingconspirator not only beat you to it, he did it with tact. Go, read, and return wiser.

814 Digital Display  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:40:35pm

re: #791 Aceofwhat?

Hurry. IIRC, singapore will spank you for having that around. and i don't mean that in a tee-hee-feather-handcuffs sorta way...

It goes into storage with 95% of my stuff back in Napa...
Since it's like 90 degrees every day in Singapore I'm pretty sure Little Winston's winter coats go into to storage also...
*wink*

815 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:40:36pm

re: #811 SanFranciscoZionist

So you had cole slaw instead of rabbit stew for dinner that night?

I suggested kraut! easy to make in 10 days with a simple jar and a little salt!

816 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:43:21pm

re: #809 Obdicut

Sorry to hear that, SFZ. It doesn't happen to be leukemia, does it?

No, it's a very treatable type of lymphoma--I can't remember the technical term for the life of me right now.

The chemo has not been too bad, it's just been stretched out as we deal with one damn thing after another--mostly platelet related, but now he's managed to get an infection from injecting his insulin...it's been like that.

817 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:43:29pm

re: #808 Spockista

Gut shabbos!

(haven't said that in years...lol!)

It's fun and it's free!

818 Decatur Deb  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:46:10pm

re: #805 Obdicut

Italy is basically a fascist state again. It's pretty fucking sad.

Not entirely. Yet.

819 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:46:46pm

re: #816 SanFranciscoZionist

Glad to hear it's a treatable lymphoma. I just asked because the fiancee is a leukemia researcher at UCSF.

And yeah, the complications are usually what cause people more pain than the actual cancer, unless it's an aggressive form. I hope he recovers well, with good quality of life.

820 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:50:50pm

re: #811 SanFranciscoZionist

So you had cole slaw instead of rabbit stew for dinner that night?

Haha. It was a clean head shot with a .22, never even killed the thing!

821 Buck  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:54:27pm

re: #563 LudwigVanQuixote

An anti war protest is not the same thing as shooting at people. The two are not equivalent. What is wrong with you?

Advocating Violence.... that was the subject. You want to narrow it it to just shooting?

822 bratwurst  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:55:39pm

re: #696 Guanxi88

What? I can't indulge in a little wallowing?

A LITTLE wallowing would be no problem. Today you are acting like the fat guy at the "All You Can Eat Wallowing and Tu Quoque Buffet".

823 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:55:45pm

re: #820 Spare O'Lake

Haha. It was a clean head shot with a .22, never even killed the thing!


head shot...head of cabbage...get it?
Oh well, looks like I killed the thread!

824 Buck  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:56:19pm

re: #562 drcordell

Yeah those huge anti-war protests that had a news network dedicated to covering them. The anti-war protests had millions upon millions of people attending them. Yet they received only a cursory glance from the major networks. The teabaggers? Aside from the fact that they had their own private cheerleaders in Fox News, the rest of the MSM hyped them relentlessly as well. Afraid that they would appear too "partisan" if they didn't cover 2,000 retirees gathering at the national monument.

I don't understand what your point is. If you never saw advocating violence at left wing protests, then you missed the anti Bush anti war protests.

825 Digital Display  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 2:56:26pm

re: #816 SanFranciscoZionist

No, it's a very treatable type of lymphoma--I can't remember the technical term for the life of me right now.

The chemo has not been too bad, it's just been stretched out as we deal with one damn thing after another--mostly platelet related, but now he's managed to get an infection from injecting his insulin...it's been like that.

My God grant your Father strength and comfort and fill you with grace..
He will dry our tears..
/Can I put him on the LGF prayer list?

826 Buck  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:01:00pm

re: #563 LudwigVanQuixote

An anti war protest is not the same thing as shooting at people. The two are not equivalent. What is wrong with you?

To confirm the truth of what you say, please consult Airforce Airman Jonathan Schrieken.

827 Spockista  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:01:30pm

re: #817 Spare O'Lake

It's fun and it's free!

yeah...been an atheist for about 6 yrs now, but I can still appreciate shabbos...and who doesn't love challah and soup with candles and extremely sweet wine?

LOL!

828 Buck  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:37:17pm

re: #469 Obdicut

Please name some 'leaders of the left' who were truthers. You said "many", so I would like to see a good selection.

It is really off topic, and it was a crazy time. However there were other polls (not just the one that Charles feels the questions was biased).

So first I point to another poll, in this case Zogby.

Among self-identified Democrats, 42.6 percent chose an explanation other than the official one, as did 19.2 percent of Republicans and 30.5 percent of Independents.

Then you have Michael Moore getting an Academy Award for his movie where he infers that the war in Afghanistan was about an oil pipeline.

Then you have Michael Moore sitting next to Carter as his guest at the Convention.

Since Fahrenheit 9/11 was really a commercial for the Democratic cause, it seems likely that a number of Democratic leaders, possibly including presidential candidate John Kerry, would have endorsed the conclusions of the movie.

So we have the Rasmussen poll, and the Zogby poll to back it up. Plus the reaction to Fahrenheit 9/11.

I could do more.... but I don't have the time right now.

829 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 3:39:13pm

re: #828 Buck

So in other words, you cannot actually show me anything beyond Michael Moore.

You claimed that many leaders on the left did something. You have only Michael Moore.

You are wrong.

830 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:05:45pm

re: #428 LudwigVanQuixote

Chomsky has appeared as a Jew on Hezzballah tv denouncing Israel and claiming it should not exist as a state.

Those who say that he is an anarchist in the technical classification of his views are correct. However, his actions and words there alone are sufficient for me.

Some of my friends joke that it is good that Chomsky never goes to physics conferences at MIT. Were we in the same room I would likely punch him.

When these threads get rolling, I often miss comments and I particularly feel bad when someone responds to me and I miss it! I really like Charles' posting system, but when I scroll back up the thread after I posted something, I tend to miss stuff. I like this better, though, than the "follow-the-thread" system.

Anyway, you gave me a good giggle. I kinda wish he'd show up actually lol Isn't that terrible of me.

831 bratwurst  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:35:32pm

re: #828 Buck

Since Fahrenheit 9/11 was really a commercial for the Democratic cause, it seems likely that a number of Democratic leaders, possibly including presidential candidate John Kerry, would have endorsed the conclusions of the movie.

It seems likely that you have a screw loose. A number of psychiatric professionals, possibly including Sigmund Freud, would have endorsed this conclusion.

/

832 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 4:45:01pm

re: #807 SixDegrees

Uh - during the several months between passage and enactment of the recent credit card reform legislation, every major credit card issuer jacked up their rates across the board, before the new, more restrictive rules on rate changes took effect. I've never been late on a payment - ever - in twenty years, and pay my balance in full every month (I know, that's a negative mark in the eyes of the credit card companies, but still..) and saw my rate jump from 11% last fall to 24.95% today. I never pay interested, because I never carry a balance, but those usurious rates you're talking about are now the norm for everyone - at a time when Federal interest rates remain at historic lows of 0%, and other interest rates are similarly bottomed.

So you can say that, if you like, but there are a lot more people paying such rates now than at any time in the past, and it's thanks mostly to the reforms that were passed without backdated protections to the date the bills were passed.

The new credit card bill was good for the consumer and bad for the banks but unfortunately, didn't provide a cap for rate hikes, which was not good. It should have done more. Here's a pretty good article. What was interesting out of that, that I didn't know,

The law largely codifies a set of rules issued by the Federal Reserve last year* and puts them into effect in February 2010, five months sooner than the Fed had planned.

*That would be year 2008.

Our rate went from 6% to 15%, and we also always pay on time. Sounds like you have good credit. I'd find another card. You may even be able to get 1 year interest free. Maybe.

833 blueraven  Fri, Mar 5, 2010 5:22:00pm

I think trying to peg this guy as left wing, right wing is just silly. He was an extremist, anti government nut case. Truly mentally ill. You could say he exhibited traits of the Larouche crowd or the extreme Libetarian/Paulian anti war side.

But, here is the deal for me. It is the republican party that is trying to co-opt the tea party people. They do this at their peril because there is no effort by the tea party to rid themselves of the extremist. I do not think that true conservatives and most republicans want to be associated with these people. But when Michael Steele and Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachman etc...do everything in their power to merge the tea party with the republicans, this is the kind of folks they might be unwittingly encouraging.

834 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 9:15:13am

re: #828 Buck

So what? This is a complete non sequitur. It has nothing to do with the case of John Patrick Bedell, who was very obviously a right wing 9/11 Truther.

835 Randall Gross  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:19:10pm

re: #788 Spilchy

Even though you smell like a stinky old forgotten sock, I will reply. There's a pattern here. These fruitcakes are coming out with more frequency are they not?
(holocaust museum shooter, Dr. Tiller's Killer, The Child Molester/Oathkeeper with stolen grenade launchers, the guy who flew his plane into the IRS building, the guys who showed up at Obama's speech in AZ with AK's, this guy, etc etc. )

Do you honestly think that's all just a coincidence?


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