Gallup: Americans Trust Obama More Than Congress on Health Care

Politics • Views: 2,931

The latest Gallup poll shows that Americans still trust Barack Obama on health care far more than they trust either the Democrats or the Republicans in Congress, although the overall confidence level is dropping as the political horse trading goes on and on.

And congressional Republicans are trusted about as much as insurance companies. Ouch.

PRINCETON, NJ — Americans remain more confident in the healthcare reform recommendations of President Obama (49%) than in the recommendations of the Democratic (37%) or Republican (32%) leaders in Congress. But these confidence levels are lower than those measured in June, suggesting that the ongoing healthcare reform debate has taken a toll on the credibility of the politicians involved.

“In addition to Americans’ loss of confidence in the healthcare recommendations of Obama and Democrats in Congress (and a marginal drop in their confidence in Republicans in Congress), Americans’ confidence in pharmaceutical and health insurance companies also fell.”

Gallup from March 2-3 asked Americans a question first asked last June — whether they were confident or not confident in the healthcare recommendations of eight groups of potential influencers. The list of those measured includes not only Obama and the Democratic and Republican leaders in Congress, but also hospitals, doctors, pharmaceutical companies, health insurance companies, and university professors and researchers who study healthcare policy.

As was the case nine months ago, Americans express the most widespread confidence in doctors, hospitals, and university professors and researchers. Americans are least likely to have confidence in health insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies — although these two institutions have only marginally lower confidence ratings than do Republicans in Congress.

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456 comments
1 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:01:36am

Color me unsurprised, notice how congress’ approval never tends to peak above 40% and yet their incumbency rates never tend to dip below 90% (making these statistics up via educated guesses)

It’s always easier to support what one man stands for than the soggy mishmash that a group of people will end up agreeing upon….

2 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:01:36am

I really wish we could turn back the clock and have the Democrats lead out their health care plans with doctors, professors, researchers leading the way. I think the US would have been a lot easier to convince from the angle of the opinions of the professionals.

So, does the mistrust in the Republicans indicate that the massive Republican obstructionism on health care is going to hurt them at the polls? Or maybe only to the tune of the difference between them and the Democrats in this poll?

I think I really wouldn’t want to be an incumbent this year.

3 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:03:54am

re: #2 Obdicut

I really wish we could turn back the clock and have the Democrats lead out their health care plans with doctors, professors, researchers leading the way. I think the US would have been a lot easier to convince from the angle of the opinions of the professionals.

So, does the mistrust in the Republicans indicate that the massive Republican obstructionism on health care is going to hurt them at the polls? Or maybe only to the tune of the difference between them and the Democrats in this poll?

I think I really wouldn’t want to be an incumbent this year.

Bah, (on the not wanting to be an incumbent) in my experience, “kick the bums out” doesn’t translate to “kick our bum out” as often as you would think.

This follows the enlightened principle of “their stuff is shit and our shit is stuff!”

4 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:04:03am

re: #2 Obdicut

I really wish we could turn back the clock and have the Democrats lead out their health care plans with doctors, professors, researchers leading the way. I think the US would have been a lot easier to convince from the angle of the opinions of the professionals.

I dont really think it would have mattered.

5 Locker  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:04:51am

re: #2 Obdicut

I really wish we could turn back the clock and have the Democrats lead out their health care plans with doctors, professors, researchers leading the way. I think the US would have been a lot easier to convince from the angle of the opinions of the professionals.

So, does the mistrust in the Republicans indicate that the massive Republican obstructionism on health care is going to hurt them at the polls? Or maybe only to the tune of the difference between them and the Democrats in this poll?

I think I really wouldn’t want to be an incumbent this year.

Seconded. That whole bi-partisan thing was a big mistake. Classic frog and scorpion deal.

6 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:06:11am

Repost from downstairs, but it might be useful here too:

This piece has a great chart in it if you scroll down that outlines the differences between the House, Senate and WH proposals: the WH one is intended to bridge the gap between the others, obv.
It’s a handy thumbnail for getting a grip on the differences, imo.

wonkroom.thinkprogress.org

7 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:06:29am

re: #3 jamesfirecat

True. Sadly, true. I’m probably wrong about that.

8 [deleted]  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:06:42am
9 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:07:14am

re: #8 MikeySDCA

Though I do think we’ll see a lot more primary stuff this year than usual.

10 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:07:35am

re: #8 MikeySDCA

Or, “Better our whoreson than your saint.”

What’s the story behind that particular saying? (I haven’t heard it before…)

11 Stanley Sea  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:08:11am

I want to see one uninsured, underinsured, or going broke paying for insurance, person speak against health care reform.

Seems like everyone against it, has theirs.

12 [deleted]  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:08:51am
13 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:10:34am

re: #6 iceweasel

thanks for that

14 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:11:07am

re: #8 MikeySDCA

Or, “Better our whoreson than your saint.”

Upding for Shakespearean invective.

15 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:11:12am

re: #6 iceweasel

Thanks, Ice. Stronger than I thought it was.

16 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:11:37am

re: #13 albusteve

thanks for that


You’re very welcome!

17 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:12:48am

re: #11 Stanley Sea

I want to see one uninsured, underinsured, or going broke paying for insurance, person speak against health care reform.

Seems like everyone against it, has theirs.

This statement going hand in hand with how, have you ever noticed you only read stories about the important people from Europe and Canada flying to the US for treatment?

18 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:13:01am

re: #1 jamesfirecat

Color me unsurprised, notice how congress’ approval never tends to peak above 40% and yet their incumbency rates never tend to dip below 90% (making these statistics up via educated guesses)

It’s always easier to support what one man stands for than the soggy mishmash that a group of people will end up agreeing upon…

Wrong… it’s almost impossible to get rid of incumbents… period. If they have a use to the kleptocrats and plutocrats, there is not too much you can do to beat the odds.

19 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:13:39am

re: #15 Obdicut

Thanks, Ice. Stronger than I thought it was.

Well, it’s from Feb 22nd when Obama unveiled his proposal. I’m not up to speed on every twist and turn in the debate (there’s too damn many), but the chart will remain useful at the very least as a way of looking at the differences among them.

20 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:15:47am

re: #18 Walter L. Newton

Wrong… it’s almost impossible to get rid of incumbents… period. If they have a use to the kleptocrats and plutocrats, there is not too much you can do to beat the odds.

My point was that I’d be willing to bet that support for any given incumbent or member of congress is probably higher than support for congress as a hole…

21 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:16:34am

re: #18 Walter L. Newton

Wrong… it’s almost impossible to get rid of incumbents… period. If they have a use to the kleptocrats and plutocrats, there is not too much you can do to beat the odds.

if civil and criminal laws were enforced, there would be an unusually high turnover rate every cycle imo

22 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:16:35am

re: #11 Stanley Sea

I want to see one uninsured, underinsured, or going broke paying for insurance, person speak against health care reform.

Seems like everyone against it, has theirs.

Not me… not anymore… and I want to squeeze every little ounce of benefits that I can get from it.

I’ve given in on the health care subject. I’m going to need the coverage, I am having quite a lot of problems finding anyone who will just let me pull my own weight and just do a good job, get paid and stay away from being a burden on my fellow taxpayers.

So… this better work out cause I want it.

23 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:18:05am

re: #20 jamesfirecat

My point was that I’d be willing to bet that support for any given incumbent or member of congress is probably higher than support for congress as a hole…

Unfortunately you are probably right. But no one is leaving Congress or the House if the powers to be (special interest) needs them there.

24 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:19:11am

re: #2 Obdicut

I really wish we could turn back the clock and have the Democrats lead out their health care plans with doctors, professors, researchers leading the way. I think the US would have been a lot easier to convince from the angle of the opinions of the professionals.

So, does the mistrust in the Republicans indicate that the massive Republican obstructionism on health care is going to hurt them at the polls? Or maybe only to the tune of the difference between them and the Democrats in this poll?

I think I really wouldn’t want to be an incumbent this year.

It may also have been easier to convince people if somebody had laid out the features of this plan in plain English, so that people could understand it, and if they had done this before they popped up with the already-written legislation that then had to be explained.

In my mind they went about this ass-backwards. Here’s what I would have liked to have seen:
1. An explanation of the features to be included in the plan, in plain English.
2. An explanation of any alternatives considered, and reasons why the features chosen were deemed to be the best ones over any alternatives.
3. For each feature, the part(s) of the proposed legislation related to it.

I think everyone involved did a terrible PR job with this thing.

25 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:20:01am

re: #23 Walter L. Newton

Unfortunately you are probably right. But no one is leaving Congress or the House if the powers to be (special interest) needs them there.

I agree with that.

26 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:20:13am

re: #17 jamesfirecat

This statement going hand in hand with how, have you ever noticed you only read stories about the important people from Europe and Canada flying to the US for treatment?

I haven’t noticed that, at all. Usually the anti-government healthcare stories I encounter are anecdotes about ordinary Canadians leaving their spot in the queue to bolt to the U.S. for immediate service.

27 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:20:37am

Here’s the weekly address from the POTUS; this week it’s about how passing reform will help people this year, not just in a couple of years.

Weekly Address: What Health Reform Will Deliver – This Year

There’s vid at the link and a bullet point summary to read. Haven’t fact-checked it myself yet, obviously, but I’m guessing politifact will later or someone like that.

28 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:20:46am

re: #6 iceweasel

Repost from downstairs, but it might be useful here too:

This piece has a great chart in it if you scroll down that outlines the differences between the House, Senate and WH proposals: the WH one is intended to bridge the gap between the others, obv.
It’s a handy thumbnail for getting a grip on the differences, imo.

[Link: wonkroom.thinkprogress.org…]

The chart at that link is what I was talking about here re: #24 reine.de.tout

I do not recall seeing anything that clear BEFORE the legislation was rolled out. It would have been most helpful to have had that.

29 keloyd  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:21:36am

I’m not surprised. Candidate Obama told us approximately what he wanted re health care, then we voted for him. plus, being El Presidente means he doesn’t get the blame for the grisly bits in the sausage. That’s on the congressmen who put their names on cornhusker kickbacks and Louisiana purchases.

Obama carried a majority of doctors and “financial professionals,” whatever that means (my recollection of NPR, so can’t cite, or tell you who they counted among financial professionals.) McCain had a slight majority among military officers, but Obama carried the enlisted ranks

…so a black Democrat carried doctors, bankers, and the military(!)

Then consider the demographics of West Virginia (see Wiki)-
1988- votes Dukakis because they’re frightened, poor and white.
2008- votes McCain because they’re frightened, poor, and white.

30 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:22:00am

re: #24 reine.de.tout

yep. a little give and take is going to happen with any legislation anywhere, but some of the horse-trade stories related to HCR are icky even by congress’ standards…

31 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:23:04am

I thought that the similarities between the current bill and the republican effort in the 90s were swept under the rug nicely.

32 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:23:29am

re: #23 Walter L. Newton

Unfortunately you are probably right. But no one is leaving Congress or the House if the powers to be (special interest) needs them there.

“Nothings gonna keep me from renewing my term, even dancing with a stripper drunk and covered in sperm.
To lose my job I’d have to die or take an interns life
And in either case, my seat would go to my wife!”

Comedy Central Video

33 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:23:51am

re: #28 reine.de.tout

The chart at that link is what I was talking about here re: #24 reine.de.tout

I do not recall seeing anything that clear BEFORE the legislation was rolled out. It would have been most helpful to have had that.


There were various charts all summer, some of which I posted here. Don’t forget what a long process it’s been and how many different proposals were on the table.

Feb 22nd was the earliest this one could have been posted, because that was the day that Obama unveiled his plan to bridge the gap between the House and Senate bills.

34 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:24:45am

re: #28 reine.de.tout

The chart at that link is what I was talking about here re: #24 reine.de.tout

I do not recall seeing anything that clear BEFORE the legislation was rolled out. It would have been most helpful to have had that.

this admin didn’t thick people would notice the stink of the various bills, after BO and his minions sweet talked the thing to death all summer….they are very consistant in their underestimation of voter wrath….remember the first town halls?….foolish boobs had not read or could not explain the bill….they thought they could steamroll people with a bunch of Beltway Blather

35 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:24:45am

re: #24 reine.de.tout

I agree. I think that Obama gave it to congress to do, trusting them to be a good legislative body, and they just flailed around on it and produced something that made him blanch.

I got the distinct feeling when the first health care bills started getting debated, that Obama was furious at the way the legislative leadership had handled it. But that’s just my perception.

36 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:27:07am

re: #30 Aceofwhat?

yep. a little give and take is going to happen with any legislation anywhere, but some of the horse-trade stories related to HCR are icky even by congress’ standards…

I worked at a job where we wrote the employment law for a public personnel system.

Our most difficult job when we had to change something was the sale.

We would meet with groups of employees and HR folks, who usually didn’t tell us anything we didn’t already know, but those meetings gave them the assurance that their concerns had been heard and considered.

Then we’d write whatever we had to, and we would have more meetings, to present the proposals and get yet more feedback.

Our aim was that when we got to the public hearing for approval of the proposed changes, all the kinks would have been worked out and the sale had been made.

37 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:27:33am

re: #35 Obdicut

I agree. I think that Obama gave it to congress to do, trusting them to be a good legislative body, and they just flailed around on it and produced something that made him blanch.

I got the distinct feeling when the first health care bills started getting debated, that Obama was furious at the way the legislative leadership had handled it. But that’s just my perception.

I think you are quite correct.

38 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:27:34am

There is also a handy thingee at the Kaiser Foundation that gives you an idea what your supplement would be with either of the bills that have been passed already.
healthreform.kff.org


(personally I think the house should just pass the damn Sentate bill and get it over with. I understand they do not trust the Senate to actually fix things, but for Christ’s sake this has just dragged on long enough and it is time to stop dicking around with the Republicans or worrying about how to do things via reconciliation.)

39 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:27:36am

re: #34 albusteve

this admin didn’t thick people would notice the stink of the various bills, after BO and his minions sweet talked the thing to death all summer…they are very consistant in their underestimation of voter wrath…remember the first town halls?…foolish boobs had not read or could not explain the bill…they thought they could steamroll people with a bunch of Beltway Blather

That is ridiculous. The voter wrath came out of a mass disinformation campaign. The dems failed on a number of fronts, but lets not act like the people just rose up…

40 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:28:04am

re: #35 Obdicut

I agree. I think that Obama gave it to congress to do, trusting them to be a good legislative body, and they just flailed around on it and produced something that made him blanch.

I got the distinct feeling when the first health care bills started getting debated, that Obama was furious at the way the legislative leadership had handled it. But that’s just my perception.

Considering some of the reactions we saw over this past summer, I would say that a lot of people were also furious about the way it was handled.

Seriously, right or left, there was a lot of complaints from both sides.

41 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:28:28am

It’s like the beer barrel polka without the beer, the barrel, or the polka.

42 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:28:30am

re: #35 Obdicut

I agree. I think that Obama gave it to congress to do, trusting them to be a good legislative body, and they just flailed around on it and produced something that made him blanch.

I got the distinct feeling when the first health care bills started getting debated, that Obama was furious at the way the legislative leadership had handled it. But that’s just my perception.

I share that perception. I’ll add only that Obama deliberately made Congress come up with their versions first, precisely so he could avoid the debacle of HillaryCare. History showed that going to Congress with a proposal would have meant it got shredded, portrayed as Obama ‘forcing it’ on people (not that it hasn’t been portrayed that way anyway) and nothing would be done.
It’s also essentially how he likes to govern, in my opinion. I expect the exact same strategy w/r/t gay rights— DADT is being overturned in exactly the same way.

Obama probably did expect the legislative leadership to handle HCR a lot better, and imo he was furious. Let’s see what he learns from that.

43 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:29:53am

re: #33 iceweasel

There were various charts all summer, some of which I posted here. Don’t forget what a long process it’s been and how many different proposals were on the table.

Feb 22nd was the earliest this one could have been posted, because that was the day that Obama unveiled his plan to bridge the gap between the House and Senate bills.

Yes, it’s been a long process, as, frankly, I think it should be for something this huge and important. There were times when I was into information overload with this, to be perfectly honest.

44 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:30:35am

re: #42 iceweasel


Obama probably did expect the legislative leadership to handle HCR everything a lot better, and imo he was furious. Let’s see what he learns from that.

ftfy

45 Stanley Sea  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:30:44am

re: #39 Uninformed Opinion

That is ridiculous. The voter wrath came out of a mass disinformation campaign. The dems failed on a number of fronts, but lets not act like the people just rose up…

Death Panels for dollars!

46 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:30:58am

re: #42 iceweasel

Well, I’m not in the least competent to judge the political maneuvers at that level. I just think in terms of convincing the American people, that the doctors, nurses, researchers, patients advocates, the people both most affected and who care most about this, should have been asked to lead the charge.

47 Stanley Sea  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:32:00am

re: #46 Obdicut

Well, I’m not in the least competent to judge the political maneuvers at that level. I just think in terms of convincing the American people, that the doctors, nurses, researchers, patients advocates, the people both most affected and who care most about this, should have been asked to lead the charge.

Remember when people were accusing them of being fake Dr.’s when they stood on the stage?

48 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:32:26am

re: #39 Uninformed Opinion

That is ridiculous. The voter wrath came out of a mass disinformation campaign. The dems failed on a number of fronts, but lets not act like the people just rose up…

bullshit, most of America wouldn’t know a death panel from a life panel

49 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:33:26am

re: #48 albusteve

bullshit, most of America wouldn’t know a death panel from a life panel

yeah, just look at how many believed that death panels were going to happen…

50 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:33:36am

re: #42 iceweasel

I share that perception. I’ll add only that Obama deliberately made Congress come up with their versions first, precisely so he could avoid the debacle of HillaryCare. History showed that going to Congress with a proposal would have meant it got shredded, portrayed as Obama ‘forcing it’ on people (not that it hasn’t been portrayed that way anyway) and nothing would be done.
It’s also essentially how he likes to govern, in my opinion. I expect the exact same strategy w/r/t gay rights— DADT is being overturned in exactly the same way.

Obama probably did expect the legislative leadership to handle HCR a lot better, and imo he was furious. Let’s see what he learns from that.

I am seeing in Obama with this method of governing something very very similar to the mistakes Bobby Jindal has made here. Be a bit vague, have someone else come up with something, then be upset when what they’ve come up with isn’t what you really wanted.

Jindal has been an extreme disappointment, even to the most conservative people I know. I heard yesterday at lunch that he was strongly advised by experts not to make that speech he made, from the Gov’s mansion, the one where he looked so creepy, in the way that he did it and from that venue. Advice which he proceeded to ignore, to his great detriment.

51 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:33:37am

re: #42 iceweasel

I share that perception. I’ll add only that Obama deliberately made Congress come up with their versions first, precisely so he could avoid the debacle of HillaryCare. History showed that going to Congress with a proposal would have meant it got shredded, portrayed as Obama ‘forcing it’ on people (not that it hasn’t been portrayed that way anyway) and nothing would be done.
It’s also essentially how he likes to govern, in my opinion. I expect the exact same strategy w/r/t gay rights— DADT is being overturned in exactly the same way.

Obama probably did expect the legislative leadership to handle HCR a lot better, and imo he was furious. Let’s see what he learns from that.

I hope he learns that he needs to take a stand, let the Congress and House and public know (and understand) what he wants, and then accept the outcome.

Because whether you agree or disagree with certain policies, right now, I think a lot of people on both sides have no real idea exactly what he want.

It’s time to stop trying to be popular.

52 HoosierHoops  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:33:54am

re: #43 reine.de.tout

Yes, it’s been a long process, as, frankly, I think it should be for something this huge and important. There were times when I was into information overload with this, to be perfectly honest.

Hi you!
Like all things.. This will matter on results..If my premiums go down and we cover 30 million extra people it’s a win win..
If my payments go through the roof then even Nancy is in deep shit..
How does that saying go? Americans vote with their pocketbooks first.

53 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:34:05am

If you ask me part of the problem comes from the fact that everyone who is debating this already has the benefits of it and better. Our Senators and Congressmen already get government run healthcare, I all upon all Republicans and Democrats who oppose this bill to give up their government run healthcare, because if its not good enough for the American people why should it be good enough for them?

54 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:34:26am

re: #47 Stanley Sea

Yes. That was shameful. And I wish there had been more focus on who was trying to shut those voices out of the debate. But I also wish the Democrats had defended them more full-throatedly.

55 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:34:54am

re: #46 Obdicut

Well, I’m not in the least competent to judge the political maneuvers at that level. I just think in terms of convincing the American people, that the doctors, nurses, researchers, patients advocates, the people both most affected and who care most about this, should have been asked to lead the charge.

I don’t think it would have made a damn bit of difference, frankly. Are people acceding to the experts on AGW? Hell no.

Similar situation. Entrenched corporate interests, lobbyists. PLus the GOP misinformation machine on health care went into overdrive because they know damn well that if this passes, they’re out of power for a generation.

56 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:35:11am

re: #40 Walter L. Newton

Considering some of the reactions we saw over this past summer, I would say that a lot of people were also furious about the way it was handled.

Seriously, right or left, there was a lot of complaints from both sides.

of course, or the numbers polled against the bill would be so negative, and congress itself can’t get anything passed…it’s a bipartisan piece of crapola

57 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:35:35am

re: #49 Uninformed Opinion

yeah, just look at how many believed that death panels were going to happen…

okay, how many?

58 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:35:42am

re: #54 Obdicut

Yes. That was shameful. And I wish there had been more focus on who was trying to shut those voices out of the debate. But I also wish the Democrats had defended them more full-throatedly.

Democrats, take a stand for what they believe in?

INCONCEIVABLE!

59 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:35:42am

re: #52 HoosierHoops

Me premiums are already going through the roof. They’ve been going through the roof for a decade, with no sign of stopping.

60 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:36:24am

re: #46 Obdicut

Well, I’m not in the least competent to judge the political maneuvers at that level. I just think in terms of convincing the American people, that the doctors, nurses, researchers, patients advocates, the people both most affected and who care most about this, should have been asked to lead the charge.

yep. have you or anyone heard the latest on the “doc fix” bit? both sides are saying something completely different, which always makes me mistrust either side. is it planned but not budgeted, not planned or budgeted, or planned and budgeted?

61 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:36:27am

re: #55 iceweasel

I’m probably too optimistic, but I think involving groups like nurses could have been very helpful.

62 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:36:29am

re: #57 albusteve

okay, how many?

Well lets start with Sarah Palin and go from there…..

63 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:36:38am

re: #47 Stanley Sea

Remember when people were accusing them of being fake Dr.’s when they stood on the stage?

Well, clear this up for me… wasn’t there actually someone who did present themselves as a doctor at at least one public meeting, I believe associated with Sheila Jackson Lee?

Yes/no this was what? This was not?

64 Fairly Sure I'm Still Obdicut  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:36:59am

re: #60 Aceofwhat?

No, I haven’t had time to really keep up with the debate. And I don’t think I’m going to now. I need an enjoy-myself Saturday.

65 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:37:02am

re: #39 Uninformed Opinion

That is ridiculous. The voter wrath came out of a mass disinformation campaign. The dems failed on a number of fronts, but lets not act like the people just rose up…

Not only did people not just rise up, the townhall BS was orchestrated by shits like Dick Army and FOX making an effort to scare old folks on Medicare and screaming socialism.
I’m sure we all remember the gal at the TH here telling Vic Snyder “I want my country back” (whatever the fuck that means) while worrying about her momma’s gov’t run health care.

66 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:37:58am

re: #51 Walter L. Newton

I hope he learns that he needs to take a stand, let the Congress and House and public know (and understand) what he wants, and then accept the outcome.

Because whether you agree or disagree with certain policies, right now, I think a lot of people on both sides have no real idea exactly what he want.

It’s time to stop trying to be popular.

he doesn’t know anything else….there is nothing there…he showed up dismally ill equipped to lead

67 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:38:14am

re: #50 reine.de.tout

he strayed from the maxim of all management maxims! “Trust but verify”!!

68 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:38:21am

re: #51 Walter L. Newton

I hope he learns that he needs to take a stand, let the Congress and House and public know (and understand) what he wants, and then accept the outcome.

Because whether you agree or disagree with certain policies, right now, I think a lot of people on both sides have no real idea exactly what he want.

It’s time to stop trying to be popular.

I think some of it is about being popular— but not all. Obama knows what the rightwing perception of him is. Usurper, etc. He likes to play concillator and imo he’s smart to do so. I would like him to kick more ass, yeah— but part of the problem, a BIG part, is that the asses that need kicking the most are within the Dem party on this.

69 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:38:34am

re: #52 HoosierHoops

Hi you!
Like all things.. This will matter on results..If my premiums go down and we cover 30 million extra people it’s a win win..
If my payments go through the roof then even Nancy is in deep shit..
How does that saying go? Americans vote with their pocketbooks first.

Exactly right.
The problem I see is that once premiums and/or costs have risen, it may be pert’ near impossible to roll ‘em back down. Better to take whatever time is needed to get it right the first time, IMO.

70 HoosierHoops  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:39:03am

re: #59 Obdicut

Me premiums are already going through the roof. They’ve been going through the roof for a decade, with no sign of stopping.

This is where the rubber meets the road…Our premiums either go up or down and Americans get world class heath care.. There are no other points you dumb shit pols.. Make it work

71 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:39:04am

re: #60 Aceofwhat?

yep. have you or anyone heard the latest on the “doc fix” bit? both sides are saying something completely different, which always makes me mistrust either side. is it planned but not budgeted, not planned or budgeted, or planned and budgeted?

So if one passenger says the light is green and the other says the light is red, then you’re inclined to assume the light by default must be yellow?

I’m not sure distrusting two people because they have wildly different opinions is the way to go.

I mean don’t we have both sides saying wildly different things about global warming?

Or maybe I’m just not correctly interpreting your words, if I’ve made a mistake I’d like to ask your forgiveness in advance for strawmaning you and please correct me….

72 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:39:14am

re: #67 Aceofwhat?

he strayed from the maxim of all management maxims! “Trust but verify”!!

He’s an idiot.
A huge disappointment.
And any hopes he had for national office are completely kaput, IMO.

73 Stanley Sea  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:39:27am

re: #63 Walter L. Newton

Well, clear this up for me… wasn’t there actually someone who did present themselves as a doctor at at least one public meeting, I believe associated with Sheila Jackson Lee?

Yes/no this was what? This was not?

Hell, I don’t know about that. All I recall is there were legit Dr.’s on a stage, who put on their white coats to define that they were Dr.’s and the omg, fakery! was broadcast on Fox.

Dr.’s groups are for reform, nurses groups are for reform, the AARP is for reform. But these facts got blasted with stupidity.

74 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:40:32am

re: #55 iceweasel

oh, i’m sure both sides had their misinformation machines running hot. some of the assumptions fed into some of those CBO calculations seemed…creative…to use a gentle term!

75 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:40:38am

re: #57 albusteve

okay, how many?

Yeah, I am sure that all of those people on fox saying that death panels are going to kill gramma had no effect.

Or all those people “rising up” screaming at town hall meetings about them.

Or all of those blog posts about it.

Or all of the obamacare leading to eugenics references.

Or all of the holocaust imagery.

Yeah, no one believed it.

76 KingKenrod  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:40:48am

re: #39 Uninformed Opinion

That is ridiculous. The voter wrath came out of a mass disinformation campaign. The dems failed on a number of fronts, but lets not act like the people just rose up…

How do you explain so many independents in MA voting for Scott Brown? Sure, the tea party money started rolling in when he decided to vote against the Dem health care plan, but are the folks in MA - independets - that gullible?

Why is it so hard for people to admit the Dem plans are unpopular, and they are unpopular because they over-reach?

77 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:41:22am

re: #64 Obdicut

No, I haven’t had time to really keep up with the debate. And I don’t think I’m going to now. I need an enjoy-myself Saturday.

i heard that. Isner is losing a match he should be winning (USA vs. Serbia, Davis Cup, 1st round).

78 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:42:18am

re: #68 iceweasel

I think some of it is about being popular— but not all. Obama knows what the rightwing perception of him is. Usurper, etc. He likes to play concillator and imo he’s smart to do so. I would like him to kick more ass, yeah— but part of the problem, a BIG part, is that the asses that need kicking the most are within the Dem party on this.

two words
Bill Clinton


move toward the center or it’s one and done

79 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:42:38am

Heh. I love this. In reference to townhall protests:

Doesn’t Really Understand the Health Care Bill trollcat

80 zora  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:42:44am

re: #66 albusteve

yes john mccain would have been so much better.

//

81 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:42:51am

re: #51 Walter L. Newton

I hope he learns that he needs to take a stand, let the Congress and House and public know (and understand) what he wants, and then accept the outcome.

Because whether you agree or disagree with certain policies, right now, I think a lot of people on both sides have no real idea exactly what he want.

It’s time to stop trying to be popular.

And to clarify. I certainly not in agreement with most of the policies of this administration. But, in my mind, it’s sort of time to cut out the popularity contest and start taking a stand.

At least in that way I can be sure of where President Obama is coming from, and make my decisions from that point on.

Notice that when he finally made his opinions on Afghanistan known, he got more support than maybe some people would have expected.

82 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:43:09am

re: #76 KingKenrod

How do you explain so many independents in MA voting for Scott Brown? Sure, the tea party money started rolling in when he decided to vote against the Dem health care plan, but are the folks in MA - independets - that gullible?

Why is it so hard for people to admit the Dem plans are unpopular, and they are unpopular because they over-reach?

The people in MA already have Masscare which is government run healthcare.

It seems like a classic case of “I’ve got mine, f*** you.”to me. Which I’ll admit even liberals fall prey to now and again, though its more often in the form of “I don’t have this so f*** the people who have it.” Like my 50% taxes over 50 million plan….

83 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:43:27am

re: #71 jamesfirecat

So if one passenger says the light is green and the other says the light is red, then you’re inclined to assume the light by default must be yellow?

I’m not sure distrusting two people because they have wildly different opinions is the way to go.

I mean don’t we have both sides saying wildly different things about global warming?

Or maybe I’m just not correctly interpreting your words, if I’ve made a mistake I’d like to ask your forgiveness in advance for strawmaning you and please correct me…


there is nothing so friendly as the statement “this is what i think that means, but correct me if i’m wrong” i have an armful of kudos for you.

one side says green the other side says red…i go off into the hinterlands trying to find the data so i can do my own math.

that’s all i meant to say. well, that and i’m too lazy to do it right now so i thought i’d just casually ask the question.

but like Obdicut…i don’t want to harsh the Sat. morning buzz…

84 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:43:35am

re: #75 Uninformed Opinion

Yeah, I am sure that all of those people on fox saying that death panels are going to kill gramma had no effect.

Or all those people “rising up” screaming at town hall meetings about them.

Or all of those blog posts about it.

Or all of the obamacare leading to eugenics references.

Or all of the holocaust imagery.

Yeah, no one believed it.

I never said no one believed it…I never said people just rose up in sudden anger….you are off on your own trail there

85 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:44:38am

re: #78 albusteve

two words
Bill Clinton

move toward the center or it’s one and done

I’ve got two words for you.

Bob Dole.

The GOP needs to find a candidate to run against Obama or else he’ll get a second term by default.

86 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:45:23am

re: #73 Stanley Sea

Hell, I don’t know about that. All I recall is there were legit Dr.’s on a stage, who put on their white coats to define that they were Dr.’s and the omg, fakery! was broadcast on Fox.

Dr.’s groups are for reform, nurses groups are for reform, the AARP is for reform. But these facts got blasted with stupidity.

And to make my point, there was at least one incident of a person presenting themselves as a doctor, at a town hall, arranged by Sheila Jackson Lee, and they were not a doctor.

Yes, it did happen.

And on the flip side, I didn’t know about the Fox broadcast. I don’t watch Fox or pay any attention to them.

87 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:45:34am

re: #78 albusteve

two words
Bill Clinton

move toward the center or it’s one and done

the center? there is no further to the center to go…

88 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:45:50am

re: #76 KingKenrod


Why is it so hard for people to admit the Dem plans are unpopular, and they are unpopular because they over-reach?

Because it is bull shit, that is why.
thinkprogress.org

People are pissed because of the process and the fact that Democrats refuse to just tell the Republicans to fuck off and get shit done.
When people are polled they seem to not support either bill, BUT they support the sep. parts of the HC bills.

89 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:45:55am

re: #84 albusteve

I never said no one believed it…I never said people just rose up in sudden anger…you are off on your own trail there

The question to ask is, would we have seen so much talk about Death Panels if people like Sarah Palin hadn’t primed the pump?

90 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:46:15am

re: #83 Aceofwhat?

there is nothing so friendly as the statement “this is what i think that means, but correct me if i’m wrong” i have an armful of kudos for you.

one side says green the other side says red...i go off into the hinterlands trying to find the data so i can do my own math.

that’s all i meant to say. well, that and i’m too lazy to do it right now so i thought i’d just casually ask the question.

but like Obdicut…i don’t want to harsh the Sat. morning buzz…

you’re a New Mexican?

91 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:47:40am

re: #83 Aceofwhat?

there is nothing so friendly as the statement “this is what i think that means, but correct me if i’m wrong” i have an armful of kudos for you.

one side says green the other side says red…i go off into the hinterlands trying to find the data so i can do my own math.

that’s all i meant to say. well, that and i’m too lazy to do it right now so i thought i’d just casually ask the question.

but like Obdicut…i don’t want to harsh the Sat. morning buzz…

It pays (in Karma) to use a light touch around here when you’re not 100% sure of the issues and where your opponent stands on them.

92 blueraven  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:48:42am

re: #88 webevintage

Because it is bull shit, that is why.
[Link: thinkprogress.org…]

People are pissed because of the process and the fact that Democrats refuse to just tell the Republicans to fuck off and get shit done.
When people are polled they seem to not support either bill, BUT they support the sep. parts of the HC bills.

And I might add…Martha Coakley was a horrible candidate who ran a terrible campaign. Nobody liked her, not even the dems.

93 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:49:53am

re: #85 jamesfirecat

I’ve got two words for you.

Bob Dole.

The GOP needs to find a candidate to run against Obama or else he’ll get a second term by default.

Come on, Condi…you can do it…

94 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:50:03am

re: #89 jamesfirecat

The question to ask is, would we have seen so much talk about Death Panels if people like Sarah Palin hadn’t primed the pump?

if there was not an entire network to make it look bad…

95 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:51:04am

re: #90 albusteve

you’re a New Mexican?

Heh. No, but i’d live there in a heartbeat. Beautiful state you guys have going there…still haven’t visited, but I intend to someday.

96 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:52:02am

re: #92 blueraven

And I might add…Martha Coakley was a horrible candidate who ran a terrible campaign. Nobody liked her, not even the dems.

She insulted Curt (Worth every shilling we paid for him) Schilling he of the bloody sock who helped lead us to victory over the the Evil Empire in the battle of GA-EM 6 near the ACLS cluster.

97 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:52:19am

re: #94 Uninformed Opinion

if there was not an entire network to make it look bad…

Not only FOX, but the nightly news only showed Townhalls where people were freaking out and not ones that were calm with people asking reality based questions and getting real answers.

98 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:52:21am

re: #95 Aceofwhat?

Heh. No, but i’d live there in a heartbeat. Beautiful state you guys have going there…still haven’t visited, but I intend to someday.


our state motto…Red or Green?….chilis that is

99 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:53:14am

re: #91 jamesfirecat

It pays (in Karma) to use a light touch around here when you’re not 100% sure of the issues and where your opponent stands on them.

…a lesson i need to relearn about every three days. dang these Florida glass houses…they get reaaally warm…

100 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:53:54am

re: #98 albusteve

our state motto…Red or Green?…chilis that is

both! can’t our peppers all just get along??

101 swamprat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:54:07am

It doesn’t matter. Something will pass. It will will have flaws. People will object. Those objections will be rectified. There will be gravy and meat in the bill. Modifications and additions will ensue. Eventually we will work this out. The bill itself doesn’t matter. Some version of it will pass, and then that will be changed. If it is too much of a drain on us, we will adapt it to suit our needs. If it does not meet our needs, we will change it. This is neither our forced march into communism, nor the beginning of blissful utopia.

Before healthcare; chop wood and carry water.
After healthcare; chop wood and carry water.

102 Bulldoglover100  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:55:52am

re: #101 swamprat

If one goes back to the original fights regarding Medicare, the same tactics were utilized and the fall of the US did not occur then and it won’ now.
You made some very valid points, Thanks.

103 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:56:18am

re: #100 Aceofwhat?

both! can’t our peppers all just get along??

it’s the same pepper, reds are just more ripe and taste a bit different….but roasted, mushed up green chilis down here is a tradition favorite….even at McDonalds you can get your burger slathered with it

104 Stanley Sea  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:56:32am

re: #101 swamprat

It doesn’t matter. Something will pass. It will will have flaws. People will object. Those objections will be rectified. There will be gravy and meat in the bill. Modifications and additions will ensue. Eventually we will work this out. The bill itself doesn’t matter. Some version of it will pass, and then that will be changed. If it is too much of a drain on us, we will adapt it to suit our needs. If it does not meet our needs, we will change it. This is neither our forced march into communism, nor the beginning of blissful utopia.

Before healthcare; chop wood and carry water.
After healthcare; chop wood and carry water.

Excellent post, I thank you.

105 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:56:59am

re: #101 swamprat

mmm…on one hand, yes, life will go on. that’s worth restating.

on the other hand, even after all of this recession crap, if i’d have been able to put my SSecurity outlays into something with just a teensey more risk, like my 401k, i’d be a lot farther ahead.

legacy programs are really hard to change…whether they’re Fortran or entitlements.

(*ducks* as pots and pans with “CRU” inscriptions are throw his way)

106 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:57:12am

re: #72 reine.de.tout

Reine (and others too)— here’s politifact from Feb 26, again with the differences between the Senate and Obama proposals. It’s a longer explanation and not in handy chart format, but it’s still pretty concise and useful:

Health care reform: A simple explanation, updated

Editor’s note: This report updates our story from last summer, “Health care reform: A simple explanation,” to reflect new developments in the debate, particularly the plan approved by the Senate and the president’s proposal. We’ve also updated our story “GOP health care reform: A simple explanation.

107 Bulldoglover100  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:59:22am

re: #97 webevintage

It also did not help that when Obama held the summit CNN kept cutting away whenever he or a democrat answered a point made by a republican. They cut away 66 times compared to only 12 times a republican rebutted. I am actually more afraid of the media running this country than Congress.

108 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 10:59:42am

re: #105 Aceofwhat?

whether they’re Fortran or entitlements.

did anyone ever mention that a good number of scientists still use fortran?

i dont want to stoke the argument, but i know these astrophysicists…

109 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:00:00am

re: #106 iceweasel

Reine (and others too)— here’s politifact from Feb 26, again with the differences between the Senate and Obama proposals. It’s a longer explanation and not in handy chart format, but it’s still pretty concise and useful:

Health care reform: A simple explanation, updated

Excellent link.
thanks.

110 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:02:33am

the skinny on red or green…

happynews.com

111 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:02:33am

Have you all seen this Repent Armarillo crap?

Here’s a post on DKOS (yeah I know, but it has an interesting twist and good links) on the group and its leader.
dailykos.com

I just got to say that i am sick to death of bullies and douchbags who use religion to be bullies and douchbags.

112 swamprat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:03:52am

re: #107 Bulldoglover100

It also did not help that when Obama held the summit CNN kept cutting away whenever he or a democrat answered a point made by a republican. They cut away 66 times compared to only 12 times a republican rebutted. I am actually more afraid of the media running this country than Congress.

I hate the media manipulating the public. And yes that definitely includes Fox.

113 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:04:09am

re: #106 iceweasel

good stuff, there.

114 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:04:56am

re: #108 Uninformed Opinion

did anyone ever mention that a good number of scientists still use fortran?

i dont want to stoke the argument, but i know these astrophysicists…

you’re ruining Christmas…

115 KingKenrod  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:05:52am

re: #106 iceweasel

Reine (and others too)— here’s politifact from Feb 26, again with the differences between the Senate and Obama proposals. It’s a longer explanation and not in handy chart format, but it’s still pretty concise and useful:

Health care reform: A simple explanation, updated

OK, here’s something I don’t get from the article - the Senate plan bans catastrophic coverage policies:

Under the Democratic plan, people won’t be able to buy high-deductible, catastrophic plans that only kick in for major medical expenses. Insurers would have to cover preventive care, and they wouldn’t be able to cut off coverage unfairly or set annual limits on benefits.

This is precisely why I’m saying the democrat plans reach too far. These catastrophic policies are very useful, I had one myself a few years ago.

116 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:06:04am

re: #107 Bulldoglover100

It also did not help that when Obama held the summit CNN kept cutting away whenever he or a democrat answered a point made by a republican. They cut away 66 times compared to only 12 times a republican rebutted. I am actually more afraid of the media running this country than Congress.

How can that be?
Everyone knows that the media has a liberal commie bias.

More liberal bias from CNN:

salon.com
(Yeah I know its Greenwald, but this is about that horrid Chaney spawn and the crapping reporting on CNN)

117 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:06:44am

re: #111 webevintage

heh. Charles had a post on it earlier this week…IIRC about 700 posts through, a newly ex-lizard came blustering in and we got a teeny bit sidetracked…

118 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:07:36am

re: #108 Uninformed Opinion

did anyone ever mention that a good number of scientists still use fortran?

i dont want to stoke the argument, but i know these astrophysicists…

And did you know…

“There is enough evidence for us to regard a lot of scientific software with worry. For example Professor Les Hatton, an international expert in software testing resident in the Universities of Kent and Kingston, carried out an extensive analysis of several million lines of scientific code. He showed that the software had an unacceptably high level of detectable inconsistencies. For example, interface inconsistencies between software modules occurred at the rate of one in every 7 interfaces on average in the programming language Fortran, and one in every 37 interfaces in the language C. This is hugely worrying when you realise that just one error-just one-will often invalidate a computer program. What he also discovered, even more worryingly, is that the accuracy of results declined from 6 significant figures to 1 significant figure during the running of programs.”

publications.parliament.uk

119 HoosierHoops  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:08:17am

re: #106 iceweasel

Reine (and others too)— here’s politifact from Feb 26, again with the differences between the Senate and Obama proposals. It’s a longer explanation and not in handy chart format, but it’s still pretty concise and useful:

Health care reform: A simple explanation, updated

I wish we could just have a general group of Americans to cover…Remember all my stories of being poor newlyweds and Healthcare?
If your family makes less than 50 grand you go into a pool and with 100 million policy owners some company will cover that.. Just like SS they take it out your check..25 bucks a week or something..Even if you are unemployed.. The money comes out and you are insured…
Small business owners are given a tax break to cover low wage employees…
Everybody gets coverage somehow.. It works in the Netherlands…

120 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:08:36am

re: #115 KingKenrod

This is precisely why I’m saying the democrat plans reach too far. These catastrophic policies are very useful, I had one myself a few years ago.

Is that all insurers or just ones that are within the exchange or people use a subsidy to buy?

121 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:08:44am

re: #115 KingKenrod

This is precisely why I’m saying the democrat plans reach too far. These catastrophic policies are very useful, I had one myself a few years ago.

Yep. I really dislike that part. I also dislike the part in the GOP plan where they want to make “high risk” pools despite what i believe is a relatively crappy track record of success with such ideas.

There’s something for everyone to dislike. That’s the weakness of the Omnibus strategy.

122 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:09:13am

ah, crap. you make one little Fortran joke…

123 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:09:18am

re: #115 KingKenrod

This is precisely why I’m saying the democrat plans reach too far. These catastrophic policies are very useful, I had one myself a few years ago.

I got burned out on the debate here this summer, I have to say, so I’m not up to speed on the rationale behind banning those. My guess is that they want to ensure that all Americans have access to preventative care.

124 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:09:44am

re: #118 Walter L. Newton

And did you know…

[Link: www.publications.parliament.uk…]

Thank you. I just found it entertaining that people running dark matter simulations still use fortran because it lets them squeeze out more flops.

125 HoosierHoops  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:10:31am

re: #122 Aceofwhat?

ah, crap. you make one little Fortran joke…

I demand Fortran Jokes!

126 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:11:01am

re: #125 HoosierHoops

I demand Fortran Jokes!

You’re a bigot… you hate Fortran.

127 Stanley Sea  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:11:36am

re: #111 webevintage

Have you all seen this Repent Armarillo crap?

Here’s a post on DKOS (yeah I know, but it has an interesting twist and good links) on the group and its leader.
[Link: www.dailykos.com…]

I just got to say that i am sick to death of bullies and douchbags who use religion to be bullies and douchbags.

A guard at a nuclear facility. Geeze.

I don’t know what David Grisham’s access level is, but he’s been a member of the Pantex security force for twenty-two years, so I can only assume that he’s rather well-established; it’s also safe to assume that he has a high security clearance, given the nature of the facility that employs him.

The fact is that he is a bona fide religious extremist, a self-labeled warrior of Christ who has taken it upon himself to lead a group of bullies on a crusade. According to an interview with a local independent publication, Grisham says he heard “the voice of God” speak to him from Mayan ruins, telling him to “do something about America’s decline”. Apparently “doing something” means being a thug and persecuting members of the community while wearing fatigues.

I don’t think anyones beliefs should have any impact on their job, but where do you draw the line? Start a website, OK. Start a militia? Uh….

128 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:11:57am

re: #126 Walter L. Newton

You’re a bigot… you hate Fortran.

I once had a Ford Van I wasn;t too fond of ,, does that count !?!?

129 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:12:34am

re: #123 iceweasel

I got burned out on the debate here this summer, I have to say, so I’m not up to speed on the rationale behind banning those. My guess is that they want to ensure that all Americans have access to preventative care.

Which makes sense since we probably don’t want to have a situation where a guy is afraid that getting a check up or cholesterol lowering pills because its too expensive so he waits till he has a heart attack, because that is covered.

I’m not sure if that’s exactly the kind of situation that preventative care covers, but I’m making an estimate anyone can feel free to explain why I’m wrong…

130 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:12:47am

re: #128 sattv4u2

I once had a Ford Van I wasn;t too fond of ,, does that count !?!?

Fort Ran is located in upper Ontario

131 KingKenrod  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:12:55am

re: #120 webevintage

Is that all insurers or just ones that are within the exchange or people use a subsidy to buy?

I’m not sure - the article covers the exchange in a different section. But plenty of folks will have to get their insurance through the exchange, and the govt (the taxpayer) will have to subsidize the comprehensive plans. Why not allow a much lower cost alternative?

132 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:13:14am

re: #115 KingKenrod

These catastrophic policies are very useful, I had one myself a few years ago.


Also, I’m guessing that if you could have afforded it, you would have preferred a plan that also covered preventative care as well and didn’t have a high deductible, right? - so the goal is to ensure that people aren’t in that position where they can only obtain catastrophic coverage.

133 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:14:21am

re: #119 HoosierHoops

I wish we could just have a general group of Americans to cover…Remember all my stories of being poor newlyweds and Healthcare?
If your family makes less than 50 grand you go into a pool and with 100 million policy owners some company will cover that.. Just like SS they take it out your check..25 bucks a week or something..Even if you are unemployed.. The money comes out and you are insured…
Small business owners are given a tax break to cover low wage employees…
Everybody gets coverage somehow.. It works in the Netherlands…

or better yet…$25 per week = >$1000 per year. Put $1000 per year in each employee’s health care account, buy much cheaper catastrophic coverage for them, and let their account roll over each year if they don’t need to spend all of it.

you incentivize good health practices + incentivize individual rationing of very very basic care + still cover the emergencies.

i still think that’s my favorite solution.

134 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:14:38am

re: #130 albusteve

Fort Ran is located in upper Ontario

huh ,,,, thats funny, because in the summer of ‘81 I drove my Ford Van to Upper Ontario!

135 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:15:27am

re: #131 KingKenrod

I’m not sure - the article covers the exchange in a different section. But plenty of folks will have to get their insurance through the exchange, and the govt (the taxpayer) will have to subsidize the comprehensive plans. Why not allow a much lower cost alternative?

I’m assuming, but maybe because it is just better for folks to have preventive care in the long run and the idea is to make those plans as cheap as the plans that only cover major illnesses.

But I’m just making an assumption.

136 keloyd  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:15:55am

do while(age of academics who learned fortran < 65)
program_of_choice = fortran77
gui_pulldown_menus = 4_teh_weak
Counter = Counter+1
end do
End Program

137 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:16:24am

re: #123 iceweasel

I got burned out on the debate here this summer, I have to say, so I’m not up to speed on the rationale behind banning those. My guess is that they want to ensure that all Americans have access to preventative care.

not having insurance is not the same as not having access. when i was 23 and single, i’d have spent far less to pay for “preventative care” out of my own pocket and just carried catastrophic coverage. so there’s that…

138 KingKenrod  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:16:25am

re: #123 iceweasel

I got burned out on the debate here this summer, I have to say, so I’m not up to speed on the rationale behind banning those. My guess is that they want to ensure that all Americans have access to preventative care.

Which sounds to me like they are putting market control over cost control. It’s probably a payoff to insurance companies and doctors who profit more off comprehensive plans (just a guess). It will certainly increase demand for preventive services, which will put upward pressure on prices.

139 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:16:39am

Hey all, the nap was great! Highly recommended.

We trust Obama more than Congress? Is that really saying anything? If we trust Congress less than zero —we still trust Obama less than zero —no?

How are you-all?

140 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:17:01am

re: #136 keloyd

do while(age of academics who learned fortran < 65)
program_of_choice = fortran77
gui_pulldown_menus = 4_teh_weak
Counter = Counter+1
end do
End Program

You have a endless loop there. Try again.

141 HoosierHoops  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:17:35am

re: #124 Uninformed Opinion

Thank you. I just found it entertaining that people running dark matter simulations still use fortran because it lets them squeeze out more flops.

It’s an unstructured programming language….
It had it’s day…
It can’t do complex matrix math or call in-line functions in C or C++..
New software coming on-line will help our climate models to most robust..
/who is going to do it? Our Scientists!

142 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:19:03am

re: #127 Stanley Sea

I don’t think anyones beliefs should have any impact on their job, but where do you draw the line? Start a website, OK. Start a militia? Uh…

I think if God told me to do something to impact America’s decline, I would interpret that as —don’t contribute to it. Change YOUR behavior.

At least, I think that is how God works most of the time. Few of us are Moses.

143 blueraven  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:19:04am

re: #115 KingKenrod

This is precisely why I’m saying the democrat plans reach too far. These catastrophic policies are very useful, I had one myself a few years ago.

I could be wrong, and the links posted don’t address this, but I seem to remember hearing that the presidents plan does allow for some heath care saving plan.

144 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:19:12am

re: #137 Aceofwhat?

not having insurance is not the same as not having access.


Which is exactly why the reform isn’t only about providing insurance to the many who are uninsured, but also targeting the under-insured.

Part of that means no more exclusion for pre-existing conditions, and no more slipping out by insurance companies finding ways to deny coverage to those who are allegedly ‘covered’.

145 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:19:13am

re: #141 HoosierHoops


/who is going to do it? Our Scientists!

/ZOMG teh academic elites are writing their own rule book!

146 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:19:36am

re: #139 ggt

Hey all, the nap was great! Highly recommended.

We trust Obama more than Congress? Is that really saying anything? If we trust Congress less than zero —we still trust Obama less than zero —no?

How are you-all?

Watching Isner give a match away that he should have been winning in Serbia (Davis Cup)…so i’m doing well!

147 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:19:37am

re: #125 HoosierHoops

I demand Fortran Jokes!

I always thought Fortran sounded like the brand-name of a condom.

148 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:20:03am

re: #111 webevintage

Have you all seen this Repent Armarillo crap?

See: The Texas Taliban.

149 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:21:15am

re: #148 Charles

See: The Texas Taliban.

ack.
I knew i had read something about them before.
The mind, not as sharp as it used to be.

150 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:22:29am

re: #129 jamesfirecat

Which makes sense since we probably don’t want to have a situation where a guy is afraid that getting a check up or cholesterol lowering pills because its too expensive so he waits till he has a heart attack, because that is covered.

I’m not sure if that’s exactly the kind of situation that preventative care covers, but I’m making an estimate anyone can feel free to explain why I’m wrong…

Check-ups, usually.
And my annual exam costs around $500, for all the tests they run.

My problem with a focus on preventive care is that personally, I can pay $500 a year for an annual exam.

It’s the bills in the hundreds of thousands for care when I’m sick that I worry about.

151 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:22:35am

re: #148 Charles

See: The Texas Taliban.

There are those in Texas who can’t get over the fact that they are no longer a soverign country and haven’t been for quite some time.

152 Stanley Sea  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:22:57am

re: #149 webevintage

ack.
I knew i had read something about them before.
The mind, not as sharp as it used to be.

Yeah, but the Kos article elaborated on the leader’s day job. I didn’t know about that.

153 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:23:14am

re: #137 Aceofwhat?

not having insurance is not the same as not having access. when i was 23 and single, i’d have spent far less to pay for “preventative care” out of my own pocket and just carried catastrophic coverage. so there’s that…

And that is what I did when I was 23.
And would do now, if I had to.

154 KingKenrod  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:23:47am

re: #132 iceweasel

Also, I’m guessing that if you could have afforded it, you would have preferred a plan that also covered preventative care as well and didn’t have a high deductible, right? - so the goal is to ensure that people aren’t in that position where they can only obtain catastrophic coverage.

I could afford a better plan, I decided I didn’t want to pay for it.

I understand your point. My point is that people don’t like the trade-offs. You have a noble goal, the question is what is the cost, and do people like the market changes being proposed?

155 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:24:03am

re: #148 Charles

See: The Texas Taliban.

Maybe the will cancel out the Reconquista-types. Why does everybody want TEXAS? Is there something there I don’t know about?

156 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:24:40am

re: #134 sattv4u2

huh ,,, thats funny, because in the summer of ‘81 I drove my Ford Van to Upper Ontario!

some wild country up there…we used to go canoeing and fishing way the hell up towards Lake Nippigon…man, talk about nowhere

157 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:24:42am

re: #144 iceweasel

Which is exactly why the reform isn’t only about providing insurance to the many who are uninsured, but also targeting the under-insured.

Part of that means no more exclusion for pre-existing conditions, and no more slipping out by insurance companies finding ways to deny coverage to those who are allegedly ‘covered’.

i’m for all of that. at the same time, if i understand some of the proposals correctly, i may not be rewarded for my attempts to stay in good shape.

the really really really tough part is that while i don’t mind paying higher premiums to help us afford coverage for people with unfortunate conditions (leukemia…multiple sclerosis…etc), i sorta mind paying higher premiums to help smokers afford coverage.

what really puts my boxers in a twist is wondering how to make a consistent and fair distinction between “unfortunate condition” and “of course you’re sick, you idiot, you smoke and haven’t exercised since you were 13”. so i fully admit that i’m probably getting waaay too picky…

158 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:25:18am

re: #150 reine.de.tout

Check-ups, usually.
And my annual exam costs around $500, for all the tests they run.

My problem with a focus on preventive care is that personally, I can pay $500 a year for an annual exam.

It’s the bills in the hundreds of thousands for care when I’m sick that I worry about.

I had a plan once, for one year, that focused on “preventive care”.
What it meant was that if I wanted my annual exam, I could get in to see the doctor very quickly.

But when I called and was sick, it took several weeks to see the doctor.
I dropped that plan - as did almost everyone else who had it, that particular insurance is out of business.

159 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:26:19am

re: #153 reine.de.tout

And that is what I did when I was 23.
And would do now, if I had to.

unless they outlaw catastrophic coverage!!

160 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:26:54am

re: #154 KingKenrod

the question is what is the cost

The cost is the crapshoot factor, in part because it’s so difficult to get a count on exactly how many are uninsured or underinsured. Plus the CBO itself notes that trying to plot cost over ten years (for anything) is so difficult. The bottom of the politifact article I linked mentions all that under “What we still don’t know”.

161 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:27:59am

re: #158 reine.de.tout

shhh comrade, examples of the free market working only serve to incite the proletariat///

162 keloyd  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:28:00am

re: #148 Charles

See: The Texas Taliban.

5 hours down the road from these lovely people. How do some of you people in other states get Amish people and we get these nuts? That and Walter is giving me Fortran flashbacks that are making me stabby, lunch time!

163 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:28:09am

re: #157 Aceofwhat?

i’m for all of that. at the same time, if i understand some of the proposals correctly, i may not be rewarded for my attempts to stay in good shape.

the really really really tough part is that while i don’t mind paying higher premiums to help us afford coverage for people with unfortunate conditions (leukemia…multiple sclerosis…etc), i sorta mind paying higher premiums to help smokers afford coverage.

what really puts my boxers in a twist is wondering how to make a consistent and fair distinction between “unfortunate condition” and “of course you’re sick, you idiot, you smoke and haven’t exercised since you were 13”. so i fully admit that i’m probably getting waaay too picky…

Franlkly, I think a lot more people who live heathier lives if mental-health were covered the way other health were covered. A small doseof Prozac costs very little does a lot and there are a lot of people who literally can’t get off the couch. Once the healthier life-style kicks in the Prozac often isn’t needed.

The go to work, come home, merry-go-round is not heathy for the brain and a lot of individuals get stuck in it.

164 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:29:19am

re: #155 ggt

Maybe the will cancel out the Reconquista-types. Why does everybody want TEXAS? Is there something there I don’t know about?


boooo!
hisss!

165 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:30:17am

re: #162 keloyd

5 hours down the road from these lovely people. How do some of you people in other states get Amish people and we get these nuts? That and Walter is giving me Fortran flashbacks that are making me stabby, lunch time!

Well, Texas has some lovey laws —or lack of strict laws —regarding pologamy in this case.

Amish had *special help* in finding good farm land. They weren’t ranchers or cattle-men —different mind-set.

166 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:32:08am

re: #163 ggt

Franlkly, I think a lot more people who live heathier lives if mental-health were covered the way other health were covered. A small doseof Prozac costs very little does a lot and there are a lot of people who literally can’t get off the couch. Once the healthier life-style kicks in the Prozac often isn’t needed.

The go to work, come home, merry-go-round is not heathy for the brain and a lot of individuals get stuck in it.

i have a chemically imbalanced brain, myself (shocka - right???) so i hear you!

167 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:32:31am

I’m laughing almost too hard to type.

The wingnut blogs are all crowing that Jon Stewart “complimented” Sarah Palin’s stand-up comedy routine on the Tonight Show. Dan “I’ll Beat Me Some Black Kids” Riehl, Newsbusters, and several others.

They’re completely impervious to sarcasm. It’s freaking hilarious.

168 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:33:33am

Rep. Parker Griffith (Ala.) on Saturday stressed he joined the ranks of the Republicans last December because the Democratic Party had “lost its way” in the healthcare debate.

As congressional Democrats ready their final push on reform legislation, aiming to deliver a bill to the president’s desk by the month’s end, Griffith framed his defection in the GOP’s weekly radio address as one motivated by his former party’s pursuit of policies “dangerous for our country and out of step with our values.”

thehill.com

169 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:34:25am

re: #162 keloyd

5 hours down the road from these lovely people. How do some of you people in other states get Amish people and we get these nuts? That and Walter is giving me Fortran flashbacks that are making me stabby, lunch time!

had nothing but great experiences with the Amish communities in Ohio. no one sets a better example of how to go off on a tangent, but in a quiet and industrious fashion that few others have ever achieved.

170 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:34:26am

re: #167 Charles

I’m laughing almost too hard to type.

The wingnut blogs are all crowing that Jon Stewart “complimented” Sarah Palin’s stand-up comedy routine on the Tonight Show. Dan “I’ll Beat Me Some Black Kids” Riehl, Newsbusters, and several others.

They’re completely impervious to sarcasm. It’s freaking hilarious.

If you had a day job, I would go so far as to suggest you quit it!

171 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:34:55am

I love a good health care discussion, but it is 60 outside and I am forcing myself to get off my fat ass and go enjoy the beginning of spring in AR because the next thing you know it will be 85, humid and tornado weather.

Have a good day folks…

172 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:35:16am

re: #170 jamesfirecat

If you had a day job, I would go so far as to suggest you quit it!

They think that’s a compliment!

173 Gray Skies  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:35:32am

re: #11 Stanley Sea

I will stick my neck out here and say that I am one of this group. I have a few years until I am Medicare eligible (not such a great deal anyway), my spouse is a sole proprietor in construction in Nevada (you know what is happening in construction here - no work), we are receiving no unemployment benefits, and we still carry high deductible individual policies that are not cheap, the premiums for which we are paying out of dwindling savings. I have watched the orchestrations (both President and Congress) in health (care? insurance?) reform over the past few months. I continue to be amazed that people who complain about insurance companies are willing to trust the government after all of the wheeling and dealing and secrecy in planning we have been exposed to. There is no free lunch, and I am not talking about just dollars here.

On principle I believe the individual mandate is unconstitutional.

A few other observations:

I also worked in the health insurance industry for years, and the CBO is correct in concluding that insurance premiums for those on individual plans will in fact increase. There is no way that insurance companies can be forced to take everyone, at the same time providing rich government mandated benefits, and not raise premiums. As part of my work, I also observed that high ER use (for non-emergency conditions) occurs as much on the part of insureds as uninsureds. The insureds far too often take their coverage for granted and have no idea of the real costs of services and how their utilization of services may affect premiums. This is borne out by studies in our own company that showed that our own employees (who paid zero for their health care plan by virtue of being an employee) had the highest utilization among all employer group plans, including State and Federal employees (which were very large groups). Any health (care? insurance?) reform needs to include measures to change behavior that seeks care for anything and everything.

I also believe, if the current system is flooded with 30 million new insureds, there will be access rationing. One of the most common complaints about my employer (which was a staff model HMO - we had our own doctors, clinics and hospitals) was that patients had to wait forever for appointments (we eventually fixed this). Impeded access is not going to go over well with insureds who at this point experience few delays in accessing care. Also having to see nurse practitioners and physician assistants, if this is how the problem is remedied. (I personally have received some good care from this level of practitioner, but those accustomed to seeing doctors will probably not like this).

I also note that the President now promises that no one will have to change their doctor under his plan. I believe that he initially promised that no one would have to change their insurance if they didn’t want to. What has changed?

Finally, I am one of those who is concerned about the deficit. I believe that the proposed legislation is going to cost far more than what is projected.

These are just a few things that I have considered. I agree that something needs to be done, but I do not like the current proposed legislation. Mainly, I do not trust federal government. I believe that reform might better be initiated incrementally at the State level.

Just a perspective from the other side.

174 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:35:34am

re: #157 Aceofwhat?


what really puts my boxers in a twist is wondering how to make a consistent and fair distinction between “unfortunate condition” and “of course you’re sick, you idiot, you smoke and haven’t exercised since you were 13”. so i fully admit that i’m probably getting waaay too picky…

Yeah, there just isn’t any way to make that distinction, imo. For example, the number one risk factor for Americans is probably obesity, and all the related illnesses and conditions that go along with that. But you can’t possibly just say “if you’re obese, we’re not covering you.” For one thing, there are way too many factors influencing obesity: side-effects of medications, genetics, many other issues.
Including some psychological ones. I know women and men who were rape victims and packed on the weight as a direct response to the emotional trauma. It has something to do with the notion of making oneself physically bigger, for self-defense, and also a subconscious notion that if they become ‘physically unattractive’ it will stop the abuse.
The worst story I’ve heard is from a male acquaintance, who distinctly remembers that when he was raped at 7 by his father, for the first time, he went straight to the fridge afterwards and ate everything he could, out of the idea that he would grow up faster and get bigger and it wouldn’t happen to him again.
He’s been a compulsive eater all his life and always will be. And his life will end much sooner because of it, and he knows that. He’s already had multiple and substantial health issues.

There is just no way to start making the distinction you mention in anything like a fair way. And I’m not convinced we even should.

175 HoosierHoops  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:36:19am

re: #171 webevintage

I love a good health care discussion, but it is 60 outside and I am forcing myself to get off my fat ass and go enjoy the beginning of spring in AR because the next thing you know it will be 85, humid and tornado weather.

Have a good day folks…

It’s 50 in Indiana and ever door is wide open..
Thank god for Spring.. It was getting old

176 albusteve  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:37:02am

re: #169 Aceofwhat?

had nothing but great experiences with the Amish communities in Ohio. no one sets a better example of how to go off on a tangent, but in a quiet and industrious fashion that few others have ever achieved.

used to go down to Shipshewanna…do some shopping and then go for one of those monster, home cooked dinners….some of the best food on the planet

177 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:37:39am

re: #169 Aceofwhat?

had nothing but great experiences with the Amish communities in Ohio. no one sets a better example of how to go off on a tangent, but in a quiet and industrious fashion that few others have ever achieved.

I had a good amount of exposure to Amish and Mennonites in the northeast, and I always found them to be good people. Shrewd traders as well.

178 Stanley Sea  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:38:12am

re: #173 Gray Skies

Gray, I appreciate your response.

179 SpaceJesus  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:38:12am

michael moore is applying for rahm’s job

michaelmoore.com

180 Professor Chaos  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:38:32am

re: #167 Charles

That was the lamest attempt at stand-up I’ve ever seen.

She would have been heckled off the stage in a club.

181 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:38:55am

re: #177 Uninformed Opinion

I had a good amount of exposure to Amish and Mennonites in the northeast, and I always found them to be good people. Shrewd traders as well.

Some are not the men you would send to buy a horse.

182 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:39:10am

re: #174 iceweasel

yikes

183 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:40:02am

re: #173 Gray Skies

honestly given. i appreciate your two cents.

184 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:40:22am

re: #173 Gray Skies

I will stick my neck out here and say that I am one of this group. I have a few years until I am Medicare eligible (not such a great deal anyway), my spouse is a sole proprietor in construction in Nevada (you know what is happening in construction here - no work), we are receiving no unemployment benefits, and we still carry high deductible individual policies that are not cheap, the premiums for which we are paying out of dwindling savings. I have watched the orchestrations (both President and Congress) in health (care? insurance?) reform over the past few months. I continue to be amazed that people who complain about insurance companies are willing to trust the government after all of the wheeling and dealing and secrecy in planning we have been exposed to. There is no free lunch, and I am not talking about just dollars here.

On principle I believe the individual mandate is unconstitutional.

A few other observations:

I also worked in the health insurance industry for years, and the CBO is correct in concluding that insurance premiums for those on individual plans will in fact increase. There is no way that insurance companies can be forced to take everyone, at the same time providing rich government mandated benefits, and not raise premiums. As part of my work, I also observed that high ER use (for non-emergency conditions) occurs as much on the part of insureds as uninsureds. The insureds far too often take their coverage for granted and have no idea of the real costs of services and how their utilization of services may affect premiums. This is borne out by studies in our own company that showed that our own employees (who paid zero for their health care plan by virtue of being an employee) had the highest utilization among all employer group plans, including State and Federal employees (which were very large groups). Any health (care? insurance?) reform needs to include measures to change behavior that seeks care for anything and everything.

I also believe, if the current system is flooded with 30 million new insureds, there will be access rationing. One of the most common complaints about my employer (which was a staff model HMO - we had our own doctors, clinics and hospitals) was that patients had to wait forever for appointments (we eventually fixed this). Impeded access is not going to go over well with insureds who at this point experience few delays in accessing care. Also having to see nurse practitioners and physician assistants, if this is how the problem is remedied. (I personally have received some good care from this level of practitioner, but those accustomed to seeing doctors will probably not like this).

I also note that the President now promises that no one will have to change their doctor under his plan. I believe that he initially promised that no one would have to change their insurance if they didn’t want to. What has changed?

Finally, I am one of those who is concerned about the deficit. I believe that the proposed legislation is going to cost far more than what is projected.

These are just a few things that I have considered. I agree that something needs to be done, but I do not like the current proposed legislation. Mainly, I do not trust federal government. I believe that reform might better be initiated incrementally at the State level.

Just a perspective from the other side.

I think it goes back to the fact that people don’t understand insurance. It is a risk management tool—not a black check with arbitrary restrictions placed upon it. We cannot legislate away the risk.


As simple as it sounds, I truly believe people either don’t understand or don’t believe the risk is REALLY REAL.

185 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:40:36am

re: #182 Aceofwhat?

yikes

Yeah, I know. But those are the sorts of factors that don’t occur to people when contemplating the issue, and they do matter.

186 simoom  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:42:02am

This Gallup article from a couple days ago was also interesting:
Age Groups Differ on Obama More Than on Bush, Clinton

Basically Obama’s approval rating is under 50% with both the over age 50 age groups, and over 50% with the two younger age groups. It’s particularly high with 18-29yr olds and particularly low with the 65+ category (there’s currently nearly a 20 point approval gap between the two age groupings).

I’ve seen some speculation that it might have something to do with whether or not most of the news an age category consumes comes from traditional media versus online sources, but who knows.

187 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:42:22am

re: #179 SpaceJesus

mmm-hmmm. and finishes with the R-word in his salutation. a big bag of class, that guy.

188 HoosierHoops  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:42:47am

re: #177 Uninformed Opinion

I had a good amount of exposure to Amish and Mennonites in the northeast, and I always found them to be good people. Shrewd traders as well.

Careful..I love these people but will not broad brush them..
At the Wal-Mart super Store here they have a whole deli for fresh Amish food..
It is awesome…I’m telling you those gals know food.. I’m willing to Marry a dozen of them Ladies and move anywhere on the face of the Earth..

*wink*

189 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:43:33am

re: #185 iceweasel

Yeah, I know. But those are the sorts of factors that don’t occur to people when contemplating the issue, and they do matter.

you were being honest and speaking from the heart. but my buzz is still harshed//

190 Stanley Sea  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:43:36am

re: #101 swamprat

It doesn’t matter. Something will pass. It will will have flaws. People will object. Those objections will be rectified. There will be gravy and meat in the bill. Modifications and additions will ensue. Eventually we will work this out. The bill itself doesn’t matter. Some version of it will pass, and then that will be changed. If it is too much of a drain on us, we will adapt it to suit our needs. If it does not meet our needs, we will change it. This is neither our forced march into communism, nor the beginning of blissful utopia.

Before healthcare; chop wood and carry water.
After healthcare; chop wood and carry water.

And I just had to repost swamprat’s take. It’s one of the most succinct and hopeful ones I’ve read. I’m in agreement, and sticking to it. (Thanks swamprat!!)

191 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:44:04am

re: #188 HoosierHoops

Careful..I love these people but will not broad brush them..
At the Wal-Mart super Store here they have a whole deli for fresh Amish food..
It is awesome…I’m telling you those gals know food.. I’m willing to Marry a dozen of them Ladies and move anywhere on the face of the Earth..

*wink*

Hoops—that would be renegade Mormon, or Micronesian

192 Stanley Sea  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:44:40am

re: #186 simoom

This Gallup article from a couple days ago was also interesting:
Age Groups Differ on Obama More Than on Bush, Clinton

Basically Obama’s approval rating is under 50% with both the over age 50 age groups, and over 50% with the two younger age groups. It’s particularly high with 18-29yr olds and particularly low with the 65+ category (there’s currently nearly a 20 point approval gap between the two age groupings).

I’ve seen some speculation that it might have something to do with whether or not most of the news an age category consumes comes from traditional media versus online sources, but who knows.

The average age of Rush’s listeners is 74.

193 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:44:43am

re: #189 Aceofwhat?

you were being honest and speaking from the heart. but my buzz is still harshed//

Really sorry. I definitely should have put a warning label in that post. I usually do whenever it’s anything about rape or sexual assault. Apologies.

194 Professor Chaos  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:45:22am

re: #192 Stanley Sea

The average age of Rush’s listeners is 74.

I thought that was their average IQ…

195 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:45:26am

re: #186 simoom

This Gallup article from a couple days ago was also interesting:
Age Groups Differ on Obama More Than on Bush, Clinton

Basically Obama’s approval rating is under 50% with both the over age 50 age groups, and over 50% with the two younger age groups. It’s particularly high with 18-29yr olds and particularly low with the 65+ category (there’s currently nearly a 20 point approval gap between the two age groupings).

I’ve seen some speculation that it might have something to do with whether or not most of the news an age category consumes comes from traditional media versus online sources, but who knows.

i think that the generation gap in politics is under reported.
Actually i think that the situation of the younger generations is generally ignored.

196 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:46:21am
Americans express the most widespread confidence in doctors, hospitals, and university professors and researchers. Americans are least likely to have confidence in health insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies

Which, sadly, shows just how worthless the opinions of Americans are, I guess. Doctors and hospitals are at the core of the problems with the health care system, as they’re the ones charging the high prices, and who are driving them higher at far-above-inflation-rate increases year after year, while insurance companies, for all their faults, are the only part of the puzzle that actually acts to drive prices downward, by refusing to pay more than a set price for any given procedure. Insurance companies, among other successes, are responsible for introducing prescription copays, which shifted over half of prescriptions away from expensive proprietary drugs into far less expensive generics in just a few years.

197 Stanley Sea  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:46:34am

re: #195 Uninformed Opinion

i think that the generation gap in politics is under reported.
Actually i think that the situation of the younger generations is generally ignored.

And we’re so worried about their future!!!!1!

198 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:47:05am

re: #194 Girth

I thought that was their average IQ…

You’re a quick man with a keyboard.

199 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:47:09am

Of the young people I know who voted —voted for Obama because they wanted to part of the cool crowd. I am totally serious. It was all I could do not to wretch when I was around them and listening to their thought -processes.

200 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:47:13am

re: #195 Uninformed Opinion

i think that the generation gap in politics is under reported.
Actually i think that the situation of the younger generations is generally ignored.

the crappy rhetorical tool of “mortgaging our childrens future” does not count

201 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:47:18am

re: #193 iceweasel

Really sorry. I definitely should have put a warning label in that post. I usually do whenever it’s anything about rape or sexual assault. Apologies.

no, no, no. just bringing it back to lighthearted, thus my preface about acknowledging that you were speaking from the heart. i dislike being dismissively flippant when someone else is opening themselves up like that, so i tried to be appreciative of your sentiment.

(emphasis on “tried” - as opposed to “succeeded”!!)

202 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:48:37am

re: #195 Uninformed Opinion

i think that the generation gap in politics is under reported.
Actually i think that the situation of the younger generations is generally ignored.

they should start voting more often. amazing what that’ll do…

203 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:49:15am

re: #184 ggt

I think it goes back to the fact that people don’t understand insurance. It is a risk management tool—not a black check with arbitrary restrictions placed upon it. We cannot legislate away the risk.

As simple as it sounds, I truly believe people either don’t understand or don’t believe the risk is REALLY REAL.

This is a very good point that is often overlooked. When everyone in the population is covered, and coverage is either the same for each subscriber or determined by anything other than usage, you’re not talking about insurance anymore. Whatever it is, it bears no resemblance to any insurance system at all.

204 Stanley Sea  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:49:15am

re: #202 Aceofwhat?

they should start voting more often. amazing what that’ll do…


The did, but they were just trying to be cool./

205 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:49:24am

re: #202 Aceofwhat?

they should start voting more often. amazing what that’ll do…

If they moved to Chicago, they could do that.

/

206 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:50:20am

Excellent info presented here today on the current health care proposals, thanks Lizards!

I’m sifting through the info, and was wondering - what is the main difference between the current proposal from Obama, and the one that went through the senate last year? Does anyone know off the top of their head?

207 Cato the Elder  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:50:38am

As I said on the last thread, Congress is a Rube Goldberg machine.

208 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:50:52am

re: #199 ggt

Of the young people I know who voted —voted for Obama because they wanted to part of the cool crowd. I am totally serious. It was all I could do not to wretch when I was around them and listening to their thought -processes.

“Whoa, that hot chick really digs Obama; I bet I could get in her pants if I, like, said I did, too!”

Unfortunately, that sort of vacuousness comes with the territory.

209 blueraven  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:52:06am

re: #195 Uninformed Opinion

i think that the generation gap in politics is under reported.
Actually i think that the situation of the younger generations is generally ignored.

True. Unfortunately many in the older demographic will have a much harder time accepting a black man as president. It wont matter what he does, some of these people will never accept him or agree with anything he does.

210 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:52:38am

re: #208 SixDegrees

“Whoa, that hot chick really digs Obama; I bet I could get in her pants if I, like, said I did, too!”

Unfortunately, that sort of vacuousness comes with the territory.

It was worse than that —there eyes *gleamed* —“oh, I am going to be part of history. They were electing a rock star.

Vote for whomever you choose, but for Bob’s sake, have a clue.

211 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:52:50am

re: #195 Uninformed Opinion

i think that the generation gap in politics is under reported.
Actually i think that the situation of the younger generations is generally ignored.

Sure. That’s because, as a group, they’re the least likely to vote in the first place. Attention is paid to them in direct proportion to the extent their opinion matters at the voting booth - which is not much.

212 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:53:06am

re: #205 ggt

If they moved to Chicago, they could do that.

/

and could vote past their expiration date//

213 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:53:23am

re: #204 Stanley Sea

The did, but they were just trying to be cool./

seriously though, young people are frozen out of health care, which is silly since they balance risk.

The younger generation also carry a ton of student debt that is not getting them jack in comparison to what older generations got for theirs.

and there is the divergence on social issues…

but it seems that the boomers and the generation after have a stranglehold on everything in the media and politics.

214 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:53:29am

re: #206 Racer X

Excellent info presented here today on the current health care proposals, thanks Lizards!

I’m sifting through the info, and was wondering - what is the main difference between the current proposal from Obama, and the one that went through the senate last year? Does anyone know off the top of their head?

All the Democratic plans are similar: Expand coverage and reduce costs. Compared with the Senate, the House plan is more ambitious in its regulation of insurers and generous in its tax subsidies to low-income people. Obama’s proposal seeks to bridge the gap between the two plans, but it takes more of its substance from the Senate plan. Obama’s plan also adopts Republican ideas on discouraging waste, fraud and abuse, especially in programs like Medicare, the government-run health insurance program for seniors.


politifact.com
Chart with the differences:
wonkroom.thinkprogress.org

215 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:53:37am

re: #209 blueraven

True. Unfortunately many in the older demographic will have a much harder time accepting a black man as president. It wont matter what he does, some of these people will never accept him or agree with anything he does.

Frankly, from what I see the race issue (in my part of the world) anyway is a NON-issue.

216 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:54:28am

re: #210 ggt

It was worse than that —there eyes *gleamed* —“oh, I am going to be part of history. They were electing a rock star.

Vote for whomever you choose, but for Bob’s sake, have a clue.

Well, FWIW, youthful idealism and naivete didn’t begin with this Administration. They haven’t sucked at the dry, bitter teat of reality long enough to know better.

217 HoosierHoops  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:54:38am

re: #207 Cato the Elder

As I said on the last thread, Congress is a Rube Goldberg machine.

Hi Cato!
I have a huge Indiana Party to go to tonight… I’m logging in tonight from my Buddies 8 core wicked bitch computer on AT&T broad band in 4 hours..
Hoosiers know how to party…

218 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:54:43am

re: #215 ggt

Frankly, from what I see the race issue (in my part of the world) anyway is a NON-issue.

that is a geographical observation. the shit that happened here was surprisingly backward.

219 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:55:06am

re: #187 Aceofwhat?

mmm-hmmm. and finishes with the R-word in his salutation. a big bag of class, that guy.

Not that Rahm is a teddy bear or anything.

220 Stanley Sea  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:55:40am

re: #218 Uninformed Opinion

that is a geographical observation. the shit that happened here was surprisingly backward.

Yeah, just talk to my family.

221 blueraven  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:56:51am

re: #215 ggt

Frankly, from what I see the race issue (in my part of the world) anyway is a NON-issue.

I live in Texas and have seen it with older people here. When I go to my original home state of Georgia it is even worse.

222 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:57:05am

re: #209 blueraven

True. Unfortunately many in the older demographic will have a much harder time accepting a black man as president. It wont matter what he does, some of these people will never accept him or agree with anything he does.

I think you’re correct, in relative terms. In absolute terms, though, I don’t think this is a significant issue, and is certainly far less of one than it was even a couple of decades ago.

223 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:57:14am

re: #218 Uninformed Opinion

that is a geographical observation. the shit that happened here was surprisingly backward.

I know, for all the downsides —Chicagoland is pretty good in the that respect. AT least my part of it.

224 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:57:57am

re: #196 SixDegrees

Which, sadly, shows just how worthless the opinions of Americans are, I guess. Doctors and hospitals are at the core of the problems with the health care system, as they’re the ones charging the high prices, and who are driving them higher at far-above-inflation-rate increases year after year, while insurance companies, for all their faults, are the only part of the puzzle that actually acts to drive prices downward, by refusing to pay more than a set price for any given procedure. Insurance companies, among other successes, are responsible for introducing prescription copays, which shifted over half of prescriptions away from expensive proprietary drugs into far less expensive generics in just a few years.

Most of the health care professionals I know personally support single payer.

225 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:58:00am

re: #214 iceweasel

Thanks, looking at both now.

226 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:58:00am

re: #217 HoosierHoops

Hi Cato!
I have a huge Indiana Party to go to tonight… I’m logging in tonight from my Buddies 8 core wicked bitch computer on AT&T broad band in 4 hours..
Hoosiers know how to party…

more golf???

227 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:58:49am

re: #224 Conservative Moonbat

Most of the health care professionals I know personally support single payer.

most of the health care professionals i know intensely dislike anything remotely resembling Medicare.

228 jamesfirecat  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:59:00am

re: #195 Uninformed Opinion

i think that the generation gap in politics is under reported.
Actually i think that the situation of the younger generations is generally ignored.

If you’re under 18 you literally are an unrepresented minority in this country…

229 Stanley Sea  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:59:01am

re: #222 SixDegrees

I think you’re correct, in relative terms. In absolute terms, though, I don’t think this is a significant issue, and is certainly far less of one than it was even a couple of decades ago.

You know, I wonder. If there’s enough of us on this particular blog with experiences of negative racial events regarding Obama, what does that say for the population in general?

230 Cato the Elder  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:59:06am

re: #217 HoosierHoops

Hoosiers rock!

231 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 11:59:41am

re: #223 ggt

I know, for all the downsides —Chicagoland is pretty good in the that respect. AT least my part of it.


since people here are fairly generous with personal information… I live in Colorado. Although it went blue, it is not a blue state outside the denver/boulder area.

232 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:00:08pm

Freaking pouring here right now.

233 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:00:12pm

re: #219 Conservative Moonbat

Not that Rahm is a teddy bear or anything.

true. but i didn’t think Darth Cheney deserved every barb, so i’m not going to toss them at Rahm either.

234 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:00:36pm

re: #208 SixDegrees

“Whoa, that hot chick really digs Obama; I bet I could get in her pants if I, like, said I did, too!”

Unfortunately, that sort of vacuousness comes with the territory.

Three words:

Joe the Plumber

235 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:00:48pm

re: #221 blueraven

I live in Texas and have seen it with older people here. When I go to my original home state of Georgia it is even worse.

It’s a good bit better in this part of southern Alabama than one might think. I’ve always thought it was because this area was uninhabited during the Civil War War of Northern Aggression and Reconstruction.

236 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:01:19pm

re: #229 Stanley Sea

You know, I wonder. If there’s enough of us on this particular blog with experiences of negative racial events regarding Obama, what does that say for the population in general?

Before the election, I actually more “I don’t think we are ready for a woman to be POTUS” —I don’t recall hearing anything about race —AT ALL. Other than “I don’t give a shit about race”

237 blueraven  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:01:37pm

re: #222 SixDegrees

I think you’re correct, in relative terms. In absolute terms, though, I don’t think this is a significant issue, and is certainly far less of one than it was even a couple of decades ago.

I certainly agree that it is much better now than 20 years ago, but I still think in some areas it remains a significant factor among the elderly.

238 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:01:52pm

re: #224 Conservative Moonbat

Most of the health care professionals I know personally support single payer.

They certainly loathe the proposed cuts in Medicare payments currently being proposed.

But that’s beside the point, which was that it’s the doctors and hospitals who are charging the prices so many are complaining about, while the insurance companies are the ones acting to hold those prices down, albeit not as effectively as one might wish. Americans may “trust” one group and not the other, but their trust isn’t based on any sort of rational assessment of costs and controls.

239 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:02:19pm

re: #234 Conservative Moonbat

Three words:

Joe the Plumber

Two more:
Lady Starburst
El Oh El.

240 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:02:40pm

re: #223 ggt

I know, for all the downsides —Chicagoland is pretty good in the that respect. AT least my part of it.

i miss it in the summer. used to live at Milwaukee+Bloomingdale in Bucktown.

241 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:03:00pm

re: #229 Stanley Sea

You know, I wonder. If there’s enough of us on this particular blog with experiences of negative racial events regarding Obama, what does that say for the population in general?

Very little. Small sample, and almost certainly not representative of the population as a whole, even if it’s truthfully reporting.

242 simoom  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:03:04pm

re: #210 ggt

re: #208 SixDegrees

“Whoa, that hot chick really digs Obama; I bet I could get in her pants if I, like, said I did, too!

“It was worse than that —there eyes *gleamed* —“oh, I am going to be part of history. They were electing a rock star.

Would either of those rationales for supporting Obama show up in polling a year in to his presidency? I mean the first seems to be someone’s rationale for lying to a specific woman, but not to a pollster, while the second would seem to indicate a very shallow kind of support that would have evaporated after the election?

243 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:04:52pm

re: #241 SixDegrees

Very little. Small sample, and almost certainly not representative of the population as a whole, even if it’s truthfully reporting.

I don’t think the sample would be that small if we got all the lizards and lurkers.

244 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:05:01pm

re: #242 simoom

Would either of those rationales for supporting Obama show up in polling a year in to his presidency? I mean the first seems to be someone’s rationale for lying to a specific woman, but not to a pollster, while the second would seem to indicate a very shallow kind of support that would have evaporated after the election?

Do pollsters consider the *buzzwords* to be true issues or just variables in their data? How do they factor in true knowledge of the issues?

245 Cato the Elder  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:06:15pm

re: #239 iceweasel

Two more:
Lady Starburst
El Oh El.

Another word for what Lowry is describing there would be “cock-tease”.

246 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:06:25pm

re: #243 Uninformed Opinion

I don’t think the sample would be that small if we got all the lizards and lurkers.

Knock yourself out, then. As already noted, it isn’t a representative sample.

247 zora  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:07:08pm

re: #215 ggt

i liked to visit a place like that one day.

248 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:07:47pm

re: #246 SixDegrees

Knock yourself out, then. As already noted, it isn’t a representative sample.

I guess it depends on your standards of polling.

I mean, you have seen some of the polls out there…

249 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:07:51pm

re: #247 zora

i liked to visit a place like that one day.

Come to Aurora, IL.

250 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:08:12pm

re: #242 simoom

Would either of those rationales for supporting Obama show up in polling a year in to his presidency? I mean the first seems to be someone’s rationale for lying to a specific woman, but not to a pollster, while the second would seem to indicate a very shallow kind of support that would have evaporated after the election?

Unknown. In my own case, the observation is based on hanging around a couple of college campuses over the last few years and hearing what students have to say. Motivations tend toward the glandular.

251 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:08:37pm

re: #239 iceweasel

Two more:
Lady Starburst
El Oh El.

I’m somehow immune to her charm. Must have The Gay, or The smart.

252 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:08:59pm

re: #245 Cato the Elder

Another word for what Lowry is describing there would be “cock-tease”.

I posted that one just for you, Cato. :) I know your love for Bible Spice.
Some of the liberal commentary on that was hilarious. A few hoped that Lowry had his Kleenex handy.

253 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:09:32pm

re: #251 Decatur Deb

I’m somehow immune to her charm. Must have The Gay, or The smart.

Sexy Librarian meme.

IMHO

254 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:09:38pm

re: #248 Uninformed Opinion

I guess it depends on your standards of polling.

I mean, you have seen some of the polls out there…

I’ve seen lots of polls, some good, a huge number very bad these days thanks to the prevalence of unsupervised Web polls.

255 Walter L. Newton  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:09:39pm

Off to watch “The Jerk” with some of the family… they’ve never seen it. Steve Martin is far from one of my favorite comedians, but there is something really special about his performance in “The Jerk.”

I guess it’s because he is so “jerky.”

256 Gus  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:10:28pm

re: #239 iceweasel

Two more:
Lady Starburst
El Oh El.

Ah, the loyal opposition. Don’t worry, it’s geniuses like Rich Lowry that will come to “save us.”

/

257 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:10:57pm

re: #255 Walter L. Newton

Off to watch “The Jerk” with some of the family… they’ve never seen it. Steve Martin is far from one of my favorite comedians, but there is something really special about his performance in “The Jerk.”

I guess it’s because he is so “jerky.”

“THE NEW PHONE BOOK’S HERE…I’M A PERSON!”

258 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:11:00pm

re: #254 SixDegrees

I’ve seen lots of polls, some good, a huge number very bad these days thanks to the prevalence of unsupervised Web polls.


Case in point =)

259 Professor Chaos  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:11:32pm

re: #255 Walter L. Newton

Off to watch “The Jerk” with some of the family… they’ve never seen it. Steve Martin is far from one of my favorite comedians, but there is something really special about his performance in “The Jerk.”

I guess it’s because he is so “jerky.”

I was born a poor black child…

260 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:11:34pm

re: #224 Conservative Moonbat

re: #238 SixDegrees

Americans may “trust” one group and not the other,

we ‘trust” our doctor(s) because basically we have (want) too. We rely on them to tell us what we do and do not need medically, and they are a face, someone we can actually see, whereas the insurance company at best is a voice on a phone after going through a prompt menu (hit 1 for ,,,,, 2 for ,,,, 3 for ,,,) and a long hold. Other than that, the insurance company is a faceless entity we either send a check to each month or it’s a deduction out of our paycheck.

261 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:11:58pm

re: #255 Walter L. Newton

Off to watch “The Jerk” with some of the family… they’ve never seen it. Steve Martin is far from one of my favorite comedians, but there is something really special about his performance in “The Jerk.”

I guess it’s because he is so “jerky.”

It’s definitely some of his best work.

Check him out playing banjo if you ever get a chance.

262 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:12:06pm

re: #256 Gus 802

Ah, the loyal opposition. Don’t worry, it’s geniuses like Rich Lowry that will come to “save us.”

/


Heck, the geniuses at NRO and Bill Kristol are partly responsible for McCain picking her! Them and, of course, the need to get Dobson et al on board.

Well-played, gentlemen.
*golf clap*

263 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:12:11pm

I’ve seen a lot more inter-racial babies in the last 10 or so years. That probably has something to do with my experiences with the seeming lack of racial issues in my area.

264 zora  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:12:48pm

re: #249 ggt

thanks. i wish that cities in america could be given a racism index. i have a son going to college next year. i know there are no utopias but i don’t want to send him into the belly of the beast. not really a question you can ask on visitation day at a university. “how do the locals feel about black people?”

265 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:13:05pm

re: #259 Girth

I was born a poor black child…

Doo Wah Diddy Diddy…

266 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:14:26pm

re: #260 sattv4u2

re: #238 SixDegrees

Americans may “trust” one group and not the other,

we ‘trust” our doctor(s) because basically we have (want) too. We rely on them to tell us what we do and do not need medically, and they are a face, someone we can actually see, whereas the insurance company at best is a voice on a phone after going through a prompt menu (hit 1 for ,,, 2 for ,,, 3 for ,,,) and a long hold. Other than that, the insurance company is a faceless entity we either send a check to each month or it’s a deduction out of our paycheck.

That, and when you ask someone “Do you trust your doctor?” they immediately leap to whether they trust based on medical expertise, which is a reasonable thing to expect of a doctor. As you say, there’s no face to an insurance company, either.

267 Gus  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:14:45pm

re: #262 iceweasel

Heck, the geniuses at NRO and Bill Kristol are partly responsible for McCain picking her! Them and, of course, the need to get Dobson et al on board.

Well-played, gentlemen.
*golf clap*

I’d say they’re still infatuated. Given their track record I’m sure they’ll pick another dunce come 2012. The shoe fits however in fact it’s part of their Weakly Standard.

What’s this about science being called magic? Something I saw this morning.

268 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:14:46pm

re: #264 zora

thanks. i wish that cities in america could be given a racism index. i have a son going to college next year. i know there are no utopias but i don’t want to send him into the belly of the beast. not really a question you can ask on visitation day at a university. “how do the locals feel about black people?”

splcenter.org

its not much, but better than nothing.

269 HoosierHoops  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:14:50pm

re: #226 Aceofwhat?

more golf???

HotShot Golf 4 on a 73” big screen…A buddies Birthday in Indiana so there will be a lot of trash talking..Video..Food and Beer…
I swear I’m stealing his Computer.. 8 Core..Faster than hell.. It’s gone after tonight..Will you guys cover for me?
*wink*
With dual TB Hard Drives in a Mirror Array.. I think 0-5, I’ll check tonight..
But I mean it is just a monster Computer…I remember the old 386/40 chips..I’ve seen it all.. My lawd this is just a monster box for less than a thousand bucks with a 22” flat screen monitor..
There is this program that runs on the side that keeps track of each Chip usage by color..Green to red..You wanna burn DVD’s all night? Pick Chip # 3 and go for it.. Wanna do some serious downloading? Pick the load to chip #7…This is a serious machine…I’ll log in later ..oh about 10pm EST..Depends on what is going on..*wink*

270 simoom  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:14:52pm

re: #244 ggt

Do pollsters consider the *buzzwords* to be true issues or just variables in their data? How do they factor in true knowledge of the issues?

I think this is correct. Pollsters often aren’t polling the facts of an issue but instead how a respondent feels about their often flawed (or even nonexistent) understanding of that issue.

In the case of Presidential Job approval though, misunderstandings are probably less important, since the pollster is after something pretty simple — “Do you currently approve or disapprove of the President’s job performance”?

271 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:14:53pm

re: #264 zora

thanks. i wish that cities in america could be given a racism index. i have a son going to college next year. i know there are no utopias but i don’t want to send him into the belly of the beast. not really a question you can ask on visitation day at a university. “how do the locals feel about black people?”

I was born and raised in Boston. I have lived in Atlanta for the last 11 years

I would choose Atlanta over Boston if race relations are your primary concern!

272 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:15:14pm

re: #245 Cato the Elder

Another word for what Lowry is describing there would be “cock-tease”.

tsk, tsk. you say that like it’s a bad thing…

273 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:15:58pm

re: #267 Gus 802

I’d say they’re still infatuated. Given their track record I’m sure they’ll pick another dunce come 2012. The shoe fits however in fact it’s part of their Weakly Standard.

What’s this about science being called magic? Something I saw this morning.

HA! Good one on WS. And you’re right.

Heritage Foundation called science magic. AGW science, basically. Posted it in spinoffs on the overnight.

274 zora  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:16:01pm

thanks. atlanta is actually in his top three locations.

275 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:16:12pm

re: #264 zora

thanks. i wish that cities in america could be given a racism index. i have a son going to college next year. i know there are no utopias but i don’t want to send him into the belly of the beast. not really a question you can ask on visitation day at a university. “how do the locals feel about black people?”

The young people within who I interact are suprisingly impervious. They don’t even register things we grew up learning. For instance, a light-skinned AA girl I know whaws shocked to meet a blonde-haired cousin recently. Her mom just assumed she knew they had white ancestors “All you gotta do is look as us to know”, but her daughter had NO CLUE.

I think that says a lot about the young people.

276 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:17:14pm

re: #266 SixDegrees

That, and when you ask someone “Do you trust your doctor?” they immediately leap to whether they trust based on medical expertise, which is a reasonable thing to expect of a doctor. As you say, there’s no face to an insurance company, either.

WEll, the doctor did go to medical school and has a medical degree —people at the insurance compay got business or accounting degrees. Who do you want making decision about your medical care?

277 Gus  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:17:29pm

re: #273 iceweasel

HA! Good one on WS. And you’re right.

Heritage Foundation called science magic. AGW science, basically. Posted it in spinoffs on the overnight.

Right. Heritage. Another pimp for creationism. I know that’s not their primary focus but “it’s in there.” Yeah, it’s magic and “trees pollute.” Uh huh.

278 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:17:51pm

re: #274 zora

thanks. atlanta is actually in his top three locations.

My 15 year old high school sophomore son is going to be taking a class at Georgia Tech this summer (it’s one of the schools he’s interested in,, and Thank God, due to his grades is interested in him)

279 SixDegrees  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:18:22pm

re: #276 ggt

WEll, the doctor did go to medical school and has a medical degree —people at the insurance compay got business or accounting degrees. Who do you want making decision about your medical care?

Depends on what part of it we’re talking about. I’ve never met a doctor with any expertise at all when it comes to insurance issues.

280 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:19:11pm

re: #279 SixDegrees

Depends on what part of it we’re talking about. I’ve never met a doctor with any expertise at all when it comes to insurance issues.

Personally, I want him to be totally immersed in medicine. I’ll talk to his staff about insurance issues.

281 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:19:15pm

re: #276 ggt

WEll, the doctor did go to medical school and has a medical degree —people at the insurance compay got business or accounting degrees. Who do you want making decision about your medical care?

Well ,,,,, the doctor is also running a business ,one that he would like to keep profitable ,, so ,,,,,

just sayin

282 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:19:26pm

re: #265 Decatur Deb

Doo Wah…

Youtube Videore: #278 sattv4u2

My 15 year old high school sophomore son is going to be taking a class at Georgia Tech this summer (it’s one of the schools he’s interested in,, and Thank God, due to his grades is interested in him)

Might see you some day at Jordan Hare stadium. Wear something orange or blue.

283 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:20:11pm

re: #277 Gus 802

Right. Heritage. Another pimp for creationism. I know that’s not their primary focus but “it’s in there.” Yeah, it’s magic and “trees pollute.” Uh huh.

Yep.

The Heritage Foundation, a once-influential conservative think tank, has lost its grip on reality. Mike Gonzalez, Vice President of Communications for Heritage, believes that the scientific consensus on global warming is a massive hoax, perpetrated because of “politicians putting pressure on scientists to come up with theories that would vastly add to their regulatory and taxing powers.” Gonzalez — who abandoned print journalism to become a mid-level speechwriter for the Bush administration — argues that the “whole edifice of global warming is now falling apart” because the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change is like a birthday-party magician

Heritage was also one of the primary disseminators of wingnut misinformation on HCR this summer.

284 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:20:31pm

re: #281 sattv4u2

Well ,,, the doctor is also running a business ,one that he would like to keep profitable ,, so ,,,

just sayin

Most of the doctors I see are part of larger groups. they are just employees of that group.

285 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:20:32pm

re: #269 HoosierHoops

you should log in regardless. you’re good people in general. buzzed, you’re good people + extra funny…although i have a date with the missus tonite, so i may have to catch up tomorrow.

286 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:20:39pm

re: #282 Decatur Deb

That was special.

287 wrenchwench  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:20:50pm

re: #282 Decatur Deb

Youtube Video

FTFY

288 Professor Chaos  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:20:54pm

re: #278 sattv4u2

My 15 year old high school sophomore son is going to be taking a class at Georgia Tech this summer (it’s one of the schools he’s interested in,, and Thank God, due to his grades is interested in him)

GT…I scoff at thee….

Out of high school I was accepted (but didn’t go) at MIT.

Georgia Tech’s computers bumped my application out because I was short a social science credit.

289 Professor Chaos  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:21:28pm

re: #278 sattv4u2

My 15 year old high school sophomore son is going to be taking a class at Georgia Tech this summer (it’s one of the schools he’s interested in,, and Thank God, due to his grades is interested in him)

Not to knock your son at all..good for him.

290 zora  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:22:01pm

yes, it’s my experience that his generation cares very little about race or sexual orientation. with respect to how they treat each other. there are a couple of boys at his school who carry purses. no “smear the queer” going on. my area is quite diverse and that is what he is used to. lots of ethnicities. his father is bi-racial. his experiences just aren’t necessarily a reflection of society at large.

291 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:22:11pm

re: #274 zora

thanks. atlanta is actually in his top three locations.

know a lot of folks who went to GaTech and Emory. all have great things to say about either.

292 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:22:31pm

re: #288 Girth

GT…I scoff at thee…

Out of high school I was accepted (but didn’t go) at MIT.

Georgia Tech’s computers bumped my application out because I was short a social science credit.

I was accepted at MIT also ,,,,, alas ,,, didn’t have the money
Son is looking there,,,,, alas ,,,,I do have the money (and he knows it ,,,SHIT!!!)))

lol

293 Gus  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:22:58pm

re: #283 iceweasel

Heritage was also one of the primary disseminators of wingnut misinformation on HCR this summer.

Heritage was founded by Paul Weyrich and Joseph Coors. That should tell people something right there. You can smell the Old Spice © the moment you open up their web page.

294 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:23:07pm

OT (if spoiler need be by this point) There used to be a short-lived humor website called The Lemon, in the early Aughties. It’s long gone now, but after a protracted search I found where the former proprietor stashed the archives. There was a witty takedown of the runup to the Iraq war, Lifecycle of a News Story. I was a supporter of Operation Iraqi Freedom, and still am, but even at the time that I saw this, in summer of ‘03, I laughed.

295 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:23:34pm

re: #290 zora

yes, it’s my experience that his generation cares very little about race or sexual orientation. with respect to how they treat each other. there are a couple of boys at his school who carry purses. no “smear the queer” going on. my area is quite diverse and that is what he is used to. lots of ethnicities. his father is bi-racial. his experiences just aren’t necessarily a reflection of society at large.

Hopefully, it is an indication of what is to come.

Unfortunately, the gangs still seem to have issues with color etc …

296 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:23:39pm

re: #291 Aceofwhat?

know a lot of folks who went to GaTech and Emory. all have great things to say about either.

I pass through the Emory campus and hospital grounds to and from work every day

It is a very good school

297 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:23:40pm

These really work!! I checked this out on snopes and it’s for real!

Amazingly simple home remedies:

1. Avoid cutting yourself when slicing vegetables by getting someone else to hold the vegetables while you chop.

2. Avoid arguments with the females about lifting the toilet seat by
Using the sink.

3. For high blood pressure sufferers ~ simply cut yourself and bleed for a few minutes, thus reducing the pressure on your veins. Remember to use a timer.

4. A mouse trap placed on top of your alarm clock will prevent you from rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.

5. If you have a bad cough, take a large dose of laxatives. Then you’ll be afraid to cough..

6. You only need two tools in life - wd-40 and duct tape. If it doesn’t move and should, use the wd-40. If it shouldn’t move and does, use the duct tape.

7. If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you’ve got an electrical problem.

298 wrenchwench  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:23:46pm

re: #288 Girth

GT…I scoff at thee…

Out of high school I was accepted (but didn’t go) at MIT.

Georgia Tech’s computers bumped my application out because I was short a social science credit.

I was accepted at Georgia Tech. I never really intended to go, but it was the only college with a FREE application, so I thought, “What the heck.” Ended up going to a place that was probably as unlike GT as possible.

299 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:23:54pm

re: #293 Gus 802

Heritage was founded by Paul Weyrich and Joseph Coors. That should tell people something right there. You can smell the Old Spice © the moment you open up their web page.

Ha! “Old Spice”— Bible Spice’s sugar daddy. /

300 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:23:58pm

re: #281 sattv4u2

Well ,,, the doctor is also running a business ,one that he would like to keep profitable ,, so ,,,

just sayin

that’s one of the only things you can rest easy about…doctors tend to be shockingly awful businesspeople…

301 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:24:23pm

re: #293 Gus 802

Heritage was founded by Paul Weyrich and Joseph Coors. That should tell people something right there. You can smell the Old Spice © the moment you open up their web page.

oh, Old Spice and Cigars—reminds me of Dad.

Those are warm fuzzy smells for me.

:)

302 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:25:14pm

re: #288 Girth

wow

303 Gus  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:25:24pm

re: #301 ggt

oh, Old Spice and Cigars—reminds me of Dad.

Those are warm fuzzy smells for me.

:)

Yeah, YMMV. I think my grandfather used it but he was a pain in the ass.

304 HoosierHoops  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:25:36pm

re: #285 Aceofwhat?

you should log in regardless. you’re good people in general. buzzed, you’re good people + extra funny…although i have a date with the missus tonite, so i may have to catch up tomorrow.

Thanks..I think..:)
You guys may make fun of Winston and I coming home at 3am in a Taxi tonight..But I am logging into the monster Compter.. I’mm sure there will be stories.. I have a NASCAR party to goto Sunday..It’s at noon…

305 Stanley Sea  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:26:17pm

re: #282 Decatur Deb

Doo Wah…

Youtube Videore: #278 sattv4u2

Might see you some day at Jordan Hare stadium. Wear something orange or blue.

Orange or blue?

306 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:26:35pm

re: #284 ggt

Most of the doctors I see are part of larger groups. they are just employees of that group.

And if they don’t bring in money for that “larger group”, you won;’t be seeing that one there any longer

307 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:27:02pm

re: #296 sattv4u2

I pass through the Emory campus and hospital grounds to and from work every day

It is a very good school

not cheap, tho. i got a similar education in Ohio for a lot less.

308 Uninformed Opinion  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:27:26pm

Going to go enjoy the 50 degree, sunny day. Before it snows tonight.

309 FemNaziBitch  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:27:52pm

Gotta go, have a great afternoon all!

310 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:28:36pm

re: #305 Stanley Sea

Orange or blue?

So I can tell him from the 70,000 others wearing Auburn livery.

311 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:28:43pm

re: #307 Aceofwhat?

not cheap, tho. i got a similar education in Ohio for a lot less.

No , not cheap at all

OTOH , I was looking at tuition for in state at Georgia Tech the other day. IF he goes there I will be paying less for tuition than I am now at his private high school

312 Racer X  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:29:28pm
313 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:29:57pm

re: #278 sattv4u2

My 15 year old high school sophomore son is going to be taking a class at Georgia Tech this summer (it’s one of the schools he’s interested in,, and Thank God, due to his grades is interested in him)

BIG congratulations to him!

314 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:30:59pm

re: #313 The Sanity Inspector

BIG congratulations to him!

preciate it

315 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:31:00pm

re: #311 sattv4u2

No , not cheap at all

OTOH , I was looking at tuition for in state at Georgia Tech the other day. IF he goes there I will be paying less for tuition than I am now at his private high school

Yep. IMHO the best education for the money in the state. (if i didn’t mention it, i lived near Mableton for a while)

316 Stanley Sea  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:31:28pm

re: #310 Decatur Deb

So I can tell him from the 70,000 others wearing Auburn livery.

I was thinking Gator fan into the belly of the beast of black & gold GT. Oh well.

317 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:32:19pm

re: #316 Stanley Sea

I was thinking Gator fan into the belly of the beast of black & gold GT. Oh well.

they don’t play each other

318 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:32:25pm

re: #316 Stanley Sea

I was thinking Gator fan into the belly of the beast of black & gold GT. Oh well.

We don’t cotton to SEC mistakes around here.

319 Professor Chaos  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:33:24pm

re: #292 sattv4u2

I was accepted at MIT also ,,, alas ,,, didn’t have the money
Son is looking there,,, alas ,,,I do have the money (and he knows it ,,,SHIT!!!)))

lol

Yeah, I knew my folks couldn’t swing it, but man was I proud of myself when I opened that packet.

320 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:33:34pm

re: #301 ggt

oh, Old Spice and Cigars—reminds me of Dad.

Those are warm fuzzy smells for me.

:)

Amazing how smells can bring back childhood memories. Whenever I catch a whiff of decaying newspapers I’m reminded of my grandparents’ tumbledown old barn. Chlorine brings back scenes of summer at the pool. Etc.

321 zora  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:33:43pm

ot: does anyone think hayworth can beat mccain. drudge was running the “mccain avatar” ad.

huffingtonpost.com

322 Stanley Sea  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:34:02pm

re: #317 Aceofwhat?

they don’t play each other

OK smartypants. I should have thought that one through.

323 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:34:42pm

re: #315 Aceofwhat?

Yep. IMHO the best education for the money in the state. (if i didn’t mention it, i lived near Mableton for a while)

oh ,, cool ,,, didn’t know that

I’m actually out east of the city (about 25 miles) past Stone Mountain (about 12-15 miles) but the commute is worth it to live out in the sticks. I don;’t have to deal with 285/ 85/ or 75 for my commute and most of the times never during rush hours (for instance, I left my house yesterday at 9 a.m after the traffic to get to work for 10,, left work at 10 pm ))

324 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:35:43pm

re: #321 zora

ot: does anyone think hayworth can beat mccain. drudge was running the “mccain avatar” ad.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com…]

Don’t have a fix on it, but it will really tell which way the wind is blowing. Does Silver at 538 have anything up?

325 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:36:11pm

odayre: #319 Girth

Yeah, I knew my folks couldn’t swing it, but man was I proud of myself when I opened that packet.

My mother says she still has the letter around somewhere,,, but when we went back home (to Boston) to visit last summer she couldn;’t find it. She wanted to show my son because he doesn’t beleive it (even with grandma saying it’s so)

326 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:37:10pm

re: #322 Stanley Sea

OK smartypants. I should have thought that one through.

my unhealthy addiction to college football is not an “endearing personality flaw”, according to my wife…

327 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:37:36pm

re: #323 sattv4u2

oh ,, cool ,,, didn’t know that

I’m actually out east of the city (about 25 miles) past Stone Mountain (about 12-15 miles) but the commute is worth it to live out in the sticks. I don;’t have to deal with 285/ 85/ or 75 for my commute and most of the times never during rush hours (for instance, I left my house yesterday at 9 a.m after the traffic to get to work for 10,, left work at 10 pm ))

I’m in the northern ‘burbs, and I just thank the Furies that my commute takes me on surface streets, opposite the rush hour flow.

328 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:38:30pm

re: #323 sattv4u2

oh ,, cool ,,, didn’t know that

I’m actually out east of the city (about 25 miles) past Stone Mountain (about 12-15 miles) but the commute is worth it to live out in the sticks. I don;’t have to deal with 285/ 85/ or 75 for my commute and most of the times never during rush hours (for instance, I left my house yesterday at 9 a.m after the traffic to get to work for 10,, left work at 10 pm ))

stone mountain is gorgeous. there was a little unnecessary marital strife the year my wife discovered it and spent months trying to get me to make a poor fiscal decision in order to improve the view. good for you for figuring it out before you bought a house somewhere else!

329 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:39:28pm

re: #327 The Sanity Inspector

I’m in the northern ‘burbs, and I just thank the Furies that my commute takes me on surface streets, opposite the rush hour flow.

Neat , we’ll have to ‘do lunch” sometime ,, my treat (as long as you like QT Hot Dogs!!))

330 zora  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:41:41pm

re: #324 Decatur Deb

just checked, didn’t see anything. palin and brown are campaiging for mccain. i think palin will help more than brown.

331 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:42:26pm

re: #329 sattv4u2

Neat , we’ll have to ‘do lunch” sometime ,, my treat (as long as you like QT Hot Dogs!!))

yikes

332 Gus  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:42:56pm

Boulder Catholic school denies preschooler with lesbian parents

A preschool student at a Catholic school in Boulder will not be allowed to return next school year because the student’s parents are two women and the Denver Archdiocese says their homosexual relationship violates the school’s beliefs and policy.

According to teachers at Sacred Heart of Jesus Catholic School, a meeting was held Tuesday to discuss the issue. The staff was told a student would not be allowed to re-enroll because of his or her parents’ sexual orientation. The staff members were also told not to talk to the media.

In a statement sent to 9NEWS, the Archdiocese said, “No person shall be admitted as a student in any Catholic school unless that person and his/her parent(s) subscribe to the school’s philosophy and agree to abide by the educational policies and regulations of the school and Archdiocese,” the statement said.

Because this student’s parents are homosexual, the Archdiocese says they were in clear violation of the school’s policy.

According to legal experts, it is legal for the Archdiocese to deny a student enrollment at the private school because of the school’s policy.

333 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:42:58pm

re: #326 Aceofwhat?

my unhealthy addiction to college football is not an “endearing personality flaw”, according to my wife…

Then you would be absolutely envious of me

Part of my job is to insert local commercials into ACC and SEC Raycom Sports football games , as well as broadcast a full schedule of ESPN games

334 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:43:55pm

re: #330 zora

Couldn’t find anything either, not even a “search” feature.

335 sattv4u2  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:44:05pm

re: #331 Aceofwhat?

yikes

hey ,,, I tole ay ,, I got a kid who has his eye on MIT ,,,

There will be LOTS of Hot Dogs in my future

336 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:45:25pm

re: #333 sattv4u2

Then you would be absolutely envious of me

Part of my job is to insert local commercials into ACC and SEC Raycom Sports football games , as well as broadcast a full schedule of ESPN games

yep, you mentioned that before. incredibly cool gig. talk about your ironclad “honey i have to watch the game” excuses!

Alabama is the clear #1 going into next year, imho. I’m not a fan, but damn.

337 Professor Chaos  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:45:59pm

re: #332 Gus 802

Nothing like punishing a kid for their parent’s sins, eh?

Assholes.

338 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:47:21pm

re: #332 Gus 802

Boulder Catholic school denies preschooler with lesbian parents

I’ll go contrarian on this one. Why would they want to put the kid through that kind of political climate?

339 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:48:04pm

re: #332 Gus 802

Right. Let’s not worry about missing a chance to expose one more kid to the God that we love and His message of compassion towards others. Let’s, rather, be judgmental and close-minded. Because nothing displays the love of God like that tactic.

This story literally breaks my heart. LITERALLY.

340 zora  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:48:41pm

re: #338 Decatur Deb

exactly what i was thinking.

341 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:49:02pm

re: #338 Decatur Deb

I’ll go contrarian on this one. Why would they want to put the kid through that kind of political climate?

well, they wouldn’t now…

i pray for the day when they can.

342 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:50:02pm

re: #332 Gus 802

Wow, that is horrible. And don’t most Catholic schools accept non-Catholic students? My Catholic school had several— Protestants, Jews, atheists and agnostic, Hindu. I thought that was standard policy for Catholic school, actually.

So how is this any different than accepting those kids? Apart from overwhelming fear of teh ghey. Wouldn’t they accept the child of a single mother? Because that woman obviously also wasn’t following the church’s teachings (having sex outside of marriage and all.)

343 Professor Chaos  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:50:57pm

I’m seriously considering becoming an ordained minister of the Church of the Subgenius.

344 Gus  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:51:19pm

re: #338 Decatur Deb

I’ll go contrarian on this one. Why would they want to put the kid through that kind of political climate?

Probably because the parents are Catholic. I remember back when I was in Catholic school for the first two years it wasn’t political so that I noticed as a wee child. Of course that was before 1980 and Bill Donohue types.

345 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:54:31pm

re: #342 iceweasel

Every year the staff are going to teach what they perceive as sexual morality (tuned to the ability of the class to understand). That means the kid would have to encounter even sympathetic teachers saying the parents are at high risk of damnation. To what good?

346 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:55:52pm

re: #342 iceweasel

i am a protestant who had an absolutely wonderful experience in a Catholic HS. got along with my Theology teachers better than just about anyone else. at no point, not one single time, was there ever the slightest hint of any conflict based on religion.

the only ‘religious conflict’ i ever witnessed was the occasional teacher taking a student to task for their attempt to stuff Catholicism into something that would fit their brand of laziness. and even then, it was a logical argument, as opposed to a religious one.

as a result, i have a beautiful impression of the Catholic faith in my mind.

as opposed to the impression created above.

like i said…heartbreaking.

347 Gus  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:56:38pm

re: #342 iceweasel

Wow, that is horrible. And don’t most Catholic schools accept non-Catholic students? My Catholic school had several— Protestants, Jews, atheists and agnostic, Hindu. I thought that was standard policy for Catholic school, actually.

So how is this any different than accepting those kids? Apart from overwhelming fear of teh ghey. Wouldn’t they accept the child of a single mother? Because that woman obviously also wasn’t following the church’s teachings (having sex outside of marriage and all.)

SFZ would probably be more familiar with Catholic school policy. It’s obvious that they’re being singled out because the parents are lesbian. They probably have an exception to the single mother in some clause or another. If this is applied equally I don’t know.

348 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:56:42pm

re: #345 Decatur Deb

Every year the staff are going to teach what they perceive as sexual morality (tuned to the ability of the class to understand). That means the kid would have to encounter even sympathetic teachers saying the parents are at high risk of damnation. To what good?

not in preschool, i bet…

349 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 12:58:30pm

re: #348 Aceofwhat?

not in preschool, i bet…

Sooner or later. And I’m not mentioning the vicious crap the older class kids would dump.

350 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:02:32pm

re: #348 Aceofwhat?
re: #347 Gus 802


Gotta bail for 15 minutes. I’ll jump back in after I get this idiot dog around the block.

351 Gus  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:03:06pm

re: #350 Decatur Deb

re: #347 Gus 802

Gotta bail for 15 minutes. I’ll jump back in after I get this idiot dog around the block.

I might bail too. Have this urge to work on some project.

352 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:04:32pm

re: #349 Decatur Deb

Sooner or later. And I’m not mentioning the vicious crap the older class kids would dump.

i hear you.

my hope is that it begins somewhere, and ‘somewhere’ would be in a religious and scholarly atmosphere which recognizes that tolerance is the first and essential step towards the ultimate goal of explaining and demonstrating one’s faith well enough to allow another to reach an informed decision.

holy run-on sentence, Batman…my catholic HS education is embarrassed for me…

353 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:05:20pm

re: #350 Decatur Deb

re: #351 Gus 802

s’ok. i’m bailing every five minutes…kids in the bath…

354 Ojoe  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:06:28pm

Down with both major political parties.

Pffiibbittth.™

The Modern Whig Party is where it’s at.

355 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:07:06pm

re: #346 Aceofwhat?

Agreed.

Have to take off— have a great day all.

356 Gus  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:09:17pm

I got some stinky mild head cold today. If it’s not one thing it’s the other.

Back later.

357 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:12:14pm

Religion, if it is to retain any genuine significance, can never be reduced to a series of sweet attitudes, possible to anyone not actually in jail for felony. It is, on the contrary, a corpus of powerful and profound convictions, many of them not open to logical analysis. Its inherent improbabilities are not sources of weakness to it, but of strength. It is potent in a man in proportion as he is willing to reject all overt evidences, and accept its fundamental postulates, however unprovable they may be by secular means, as massive and incontrovertible facts…it is one thing to reject religion altogether, and quite another thing to try to save it by pumping out of it all its essential substance…

That, it seems to me, is what the Modernists have done, no doubt with the best intentions in the world. They have tried to get rid of all the logical difficulties of religion, and yet preserve a generally pious cast of mind. It is a vain enterprise. What they have left, once they have achieved their imprudent scavenging, is hardly more than a row of hollow platitudes, as empty as [of] psychological force and effect as so many nursery rhymes. They may be good people and they may even be contented and happy, but they are no more religious than Dr. Einstein. Religion is something else again—in Henrik Ibsen’s phrase, something far more deep-down-diving and mud-upbringing…

— H. L. Mencken, The Death of Dr. Fundamentalist, 1937

358 Cato the Elder  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:16:28pm

Just a theoretical question: Could Obama, if he wanted to, sign an executive order establishing a single-payer public-option health agency under an existing department such as Medicare or Social Security, thus bypassing the Congress and getting a foot in the health-care reform door?

Anyone know?

359 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:21:56pm

re: #352 Aceofwhat?

i hear you.

my hope is that it begins somewhere, and ‘somewhere’ would be in a religious and scholarly atmosphere which recognizes that tolerance is the first and essential step towards the ultimate goal of explaining and demonstrating one’s faith well enough to allow another to reach an informed decision.

holy run-on sentence, Batman…my catholic HS education is embarrassed for me…

I hope to see the day, but it’s going to come from good secular education.

360 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:24:36pm

re: #357 The Sanity Inspector

HL is right. Old school Catholic religion is hard stuff. It can get you killed, and it can get you to kill.

361 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:28:43pm

re: #358 Cato the Elder

Looks like the action is upstairs. The executive orders I’m familiar with only apply to the management of the Executive Branch. Even if the Pres could stretch one, he couldn’t fund it w/o congress.

362 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:29:21pm

re: #357 The Sanity Inspector

well done. i do not find that sentiment incompatible with this one, however…

27 “But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you.

29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. 31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.

32 “But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back.

35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. 36 Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.

37 “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.”


363 Cato the Elder  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:30:11pm

re: #352 Aceofwhat?

There is nothing wrong with a good run-on sentence, well devised, rhythmic, an ornament to the writer, a long sweeping periodic exegesis, cunning in thought, clever in phrasing, built upon knowledge and experience of the language, in tone musical, with dancing melody and a gleeful heart, shaped and decorated with alliteration and allusion, multitudinous in meaning, a thrill to the heart of the reader.

364 Cato the Elder  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:30:53pm

re: #360 Decatur Deb

HL is right. Old school Catholic religion is hard stuff. It can get you killed, and it can get you to kill.

Why single out Catholicism for that remark?

365 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:32:12pm

Speaking of polling, Research 2000 who does the polling for DKOS (please no comments about how they must always be wrong, blah, blah, blah, because DKOS pays the bill) has changed the way they poll.

“This week marks a new phase in the Daily Kos State of the Nation Tracking Poll, where the respondents have gone from being “adults” to the more restrictive universe of “registered voters”.

To do so, the number of respondents has been knocked backwards from 2400 down to 1200 (although that only costs us about eight-tenths of point in statistical margin of error). Research 2000, has also made changes on the demographic weighing — narrowing the universe of respondents from “all voters” to “registered voters” drags down the numbers of under-represented groups, like ethnic and racial minorities and younger voters. Those decisions are made by the pollster, not us.”
dailykos.com

They have upped the Republicans by 2% and lowered the precent of black respondants. I find it an interesting poll because they break down the Fav/Unfavs by region too.

I’m never sure which is better in a poll adults or registered voters.

366 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:38:45pm

re: #360 Decatur Deb

HL is right. Old school Catholic religion is hard stuff. It can get you killed, and it can get you to kill.

IMHO, old school Catholics are nowhere in the list of “top X awful things being perpetrated in the (at least ostensibly) name of religion”.

It may have been hard stuff a long long time ago. Evolution counts, imho.

367 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:40:55pm

re: #358 Cato the Elder

Just a theoretical question: Could Obama, if he wanted to, sign an executive order establishing a single-payer public-option health agency under an existing department such as Medicare or Social Security, thus bypassing the Congress and getting a foot in the health-care reform door?

Anyone know?

Hey Cato— popped back in to answer this. Just going by wiki here, this would be the reason:

Congress may overturn an executive order by passing legislation in conflict with it or by refusing to approve funding to enforce it.

Public option obviously is meaningless without the funding, so it would be dead in the water.

368 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:43:42pm

re: #364 Cato the Elder

Why single out Catholicism for that remark?

That’s where I’m from. Think martyrdom. Think Crusades.

369 keloyd  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:43:50pm

re: #366 Aceofwhat?

and don’t the old school Catholics mostly bicker with other Catholics? The few I’ve known were much more passionate about not being turned into Episcopalians than what we outsiders get up to. The exception I guess is the whole life-issues thing. The most stridently anti-gay or anti-ethnic-group activists are invariably Protestants. It must be the heirarchy reining in or expelling the nuts.

370 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:50:42pm

re: #366 Aceofwhat?

IMHO, old school Catholics are nowhere in the list of “top X awful things being perpetrated in the (at least ostensibly) name of religion”.

It may have been hard stuff a long long time ago. Evolution counts, imho.

Don’t take my statement as a knock. It’s more a recognition of the seriousness and power of religion. I dropped away from Catholicism very gently, and still donate to support old nuns. The evolution is largely a matter of powerlessness. Given the chance my seminary professors would have gone Catholic Dominionist in a blink.

371 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:50:49pm

re: #369 keloyd

and don’t the old school Catholics mostly bicker with other Catholics? The few I’ve known were much more passionate about not being turned into Episcopalians than what we outsiders get up to. The exception I guess is the whole life-issues thing. The most stridently anti-gay or anti-ethnic-group activists are invariably Protestants. It must be the heirarchy reining in or expelling the nuts.

It may be hard to believe, and some might not want to believe it.
But Catholics do not believe that the mere fact of being homosexual is evil or sinful or anything other awful thing. It simply it what it is and everyone is loved and welcomed.

The Church does believe that those who engage in homosexual sexual activities are acting sinfully. As do heterosexuals who engage in sex outside of marriage.

372 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:52:15pm

re: #371 reine.de.tout

It may be hard to believe, and some might not want to believe it.
But Catholics do not believe that the mere fact of being homosexual is evil or sinful or anything other awful thing. It simply it what it is and everyone is loved and welcomed.

The Church does believe that those who engage in homosexual sexual activities are acting sinfully. As do heterosexuals who engage in sex outside of marriage.

True, but an openly married gay couple would stand accused of the daily sin of scandal.

373 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 1:56:34pm

re: #372 Decatur Deb

True, but an openly married gay couple would stand accused of the daily sin of scandal.

I know of no such accusations being levied by my parish. No one is accused of anything. I can’t say what happens at churches of other denominations.

There are many churches that preach against homosexuality as evil, people are doomed unless they change their ways, yada yada yada.

We don’t get those sermons.

374 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:00:54pm

re: #373 reine.de.tout

The context here is the above child placed in a Catholic school. When the moral teachings on sex and marriage are imparted to the class, the child of the lesbian couple will clearly be odd man out. (Or else the sympathetic teacher will be inhibited from following the script.) Note this school has said the child may not continue there—not a liberal stance.

375 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:01:38pm

re: #360 Decatur Deb

HL is right. Old school Catholic religion is hard stuff. It can get you killed, and it can get you to kill.

I didn’t say so, so you couldn’t have known, but that passage was in reference to a prominent Presbyterian pastor of the time.

376 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:04:11pm

re: #375 The Sanity Inspector

I didn’t say so, so you couldn’t have known, but that passage was in reference to a prominent Presbyterian pastor of the time.

Sure—it goes both ways. The various Tudors were killing Protestant divines and Jesuits as the tides shifted.

377 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:08:30pm

re: #373 reine.de.tout

I attended a Metropolitan Community Church for about 10 months. The members are made up of Gay, Lesbian, trans gender, etc. The worship and sermons were just as filled with the presence and love from God as many other services from different spirit filled churches I have gone to. When I say spirit filled, I mean believing in the second chapter of Acts occurrence of the Baptism of the Holy spirit with signs to follow.
It was a great experience.

378 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:10:35pm

re: #373 reine.de.tout

I know of no such accusations being levied by my parish. No one is accused of anything. I can’t say what happens at churches of other denominations.

Yeah, it would have to be a pretty hard line, trad-Catholic parish for anyone to get “accused” of anything and even then it would be a private conversation between Father and the gay parishioners letting them know that while they are a welcomed and loved part of the parish family they cannot receive communion while continuing in a sinful state. More then likely that would also be a parish where the Priest also has the same discussions with un-married heterosexuals and divorced members who are re-married but have not gotten and annulment yet.

379 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:11:58pm

re: #377 prairiefire

It would make much better sense for the lesbian couple to enroll their kid in a school run by such a church. An old friend of mine runs one like that in R.I. (PCUSA).

380 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:14:45pm

re: #378 webevintage

WBV— Note this is about a kid who would be sitting in classes where the orthodox doctrine would be taught. The whole issue is that this church is not welcoming—they kicked the preschooler out.

381 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:17:27pm

re: #379 Decatur Deb

How about a liberal Episcopal church/school? That would have a larger parish to support a school.
I find it unfortunate for the couple, understandable for the Catholic church school.

382 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:19:24pm

re: #370 Decatur Deb

Don’t take my statement as a knock. It’s more a recognition of the seriousness and power of religion. I dropped away from Catholicism very gently, and still donate to support old nuns. The evolution is largely a matter of powerlessness. Given the chance my seminary professors would have gone Catholic Dominionist in a blink.

that’s a shame - the part, i mean, about your profs giving you that bad impression. that’s why stories like this kill me. those impressions last.

383 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:20:13pm

re: #373 reine.de.tout

re: #378 webevintage

I tracked down the case this started with—it’s the newsclip in Gus’s comment 332.

384 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:20:37pm

re: #369 keloyd

and don’t the old school Catholics mostly bicker with other Catholics? The few I’ve known were much more passionate about not being turned into Episcopalians than what we outsiders get up to. The exception I guess is the whole life-issues thing. The most stridently anti-gay or anti-ethnic-group activists are invariably Protestants. It must be the heirarchy reining in or expelling the nuts.

that’s been my experience…but our personal experiences are tremendously powerful on this subject…

385 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:21:06pm

re: #380 Decatur Deb

WBV— Note this is about a kid who would be sitting in classes where the orthodox doctrine would be taught. The whole issue is that this church is not welcoming—they kicked the preschooler out.

That particular school then. And …yes, there will be schools like that.
I was responding to your posts where it appeared you were talking about Catholicism in general.

386 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:22:41pm

re: #381 prairiefire

How about a liberal Episcopal church/school? That would have a larger parish to support a school.
I find it unfortunate for the couple, understandable for the Catholic church school.

Yes—I’m defending the school’s right to teach what they want, as long as there is no public money involved. I would hate to see the kid messed with just to make a legal point.

387 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:23:13pm

re: #386 Decatur Deb

Yes—I’m defending the school’s right to teach what they want, as long as there is no public money involved. I would hate to see the kid messed with just to make a legal point.

On that, we are agreed.

388 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:28:19pm

re: #385 reine.de.tout

That particular school then. And …yes, there will be schools like that.
I was responding to your posts where it appeared you were talking about Catholicism in general.

I said it over-dramatically, but still emphasize that religion is bigger than life and death. To the believers it’s about the organization of the universe.

389 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:29:20pm

re: #386 Decatur Deb

Yes—I’m defending the school’s right to teach what they want, as long as there is no public money involved. I would hate to see the kid messed with just to make a legal point.

Well my bad on commenting oddly, but I agree with you.
No public funds, you can teach whatever you want.

Though I can’t for the life of me understand why a gay couple would put their kids in a Catholic pre-school.

“The Archdiocese also told 9NEWS, “Parents living in open discord with Catholic teaching in areas of faith and morals unfortunately choose by their actions to disqualify their children from enrollment.”

As long as the diocese is fair with this and also kicks out kids who’s parents are re-married but without an annulment or who’s parents are basically unmarried then they can do as they please.

390 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:29:39pm

re: #377 prairiefire

I attended a Metropolitan Community Church for about 10 months. The members are made up of Gay, Lesbian, trans gender, etc. The worship and sermons were just as filled with the presence and love from God as many other services from different spirit filled churches I have gone to. When I say spirit filled, I mean believing in the second chapter of Acts occurrence of the Baptism of the Holy spirit with signs to follow.
It was a great experience.

yep, that’s the thing. it’s one thing to take a church member aside and say “hey, you’ve acknowledged that X is not appropriate behavior…so you gotta work harder at not doing it when you’re here”

as opposed to

“hey, we all have variations in the way that we interpret certain things and I can see that you are searching for God as honestly as the rest of us, so welcome”

someone with a drinking problem attending church and then inviting other members to go out drinking…we gotta talk to that guy. a gay couple who is doing their best to live the instructions of the bible, with the one exception being they truly hear God and truly believe He’s blessed their relationship? they ought to be welcome.

just me…i think a dispassionate view of the situation reveals i have more in common with a homosexual couple who share my beliefs closely than a heterosexual Catholic couple…and i love my Catholics…

391 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:30:33pm

That should be “Unmarried, but living together (in sin)”.

392 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:30:42pm

re: #378 webevintage

Yeah, it would have to be a pretty hard line, trad-Catholic parish for anyone to get “accused” of anything and even then it would be a private conversation between Father and the gay parishioners letting them know that while they are a welcomed and loved part of the parish family they cannot receive communion while continuing in a sinful state. More then likely that would also be a parish where the Priest also has the same discussions with un-married heterosexuals and divorced members who are re-married but have not gotten and annulment yet.

well said

393 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:31:34pm

Just had an email from our uncle in Hilo. He said that the scenes on TV were scary when the water rushed out of the bay. He had expected a damaging Tsunami but he said “luckily, the wave this time had more Aloha for Hilo.”
He is adorable.

394 Ojoe  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:32:00pm

On topic, I really believe that if Obama does not get his way with “health care reform,” he is capable of continuing the current shouting match until it is four years long.

I wish we could have a vote of confidence on the guy.

Alas.

395 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:32:13pm

And while I think the parish has every right to make this decision, I think it is a pretty shitty one to make.

396 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:32:45pm

re: #388 Decatur Deb

I said it over-dramatically, but still emphasize that religion is bigger than life and death. To the believers it’s about the organization of the universe.

or…the organization of the universe talks about God!!

(your statement, i think, is true of creationists…;)

397 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:33:03pm

re: #390 Aceofwhat?

I have found that many Catholics work out a relationship in their heart with their church. Birth control comes to mind.

398 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:33:14pm

re: #393 prairiefire

Does that “aloha” mean more than hello/goodbye?

399 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:33:51pm

re: #397 prairiefire

I have found that many Catholics work out a relationship in their heart with their church. Birth control comes to mind.

so true!

400 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:34:07pm

re: #389 webevintage

“The Archdiocese also told 9NEWS, “Parents living in open discord with Catholic teaching in areas of faith and morals unfortunately choose by their actions to disqualify their children from enrollment.”

And that’s where I will disagree with the archdiocese.
As far as I’m concerned, one should not disqualify children from education because of what they see as the parents’ sins.

401 Cato the Elder  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:34:59pm

re: #368 Decatur Deb

That’s where I’m from. Think martyrdom. Think Crusades.

Think Saint Francis. Think monks making heavenly brewskis.

402 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:35:02pm

re: #398 Decatur Deb

Yes, a love of life and family. They will say “Hawaii gives to you Aloha”.

403 Ojoe  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:35:09pm

re: #397 prairiefire

The Church is the regular catholics.

404 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:35:52pm

re: #400 reine.de.tout

And that’s where I will disagree with the archdiocese.
As far as I’m concerned, one should not disqualify children from education because of what they see as the parents’ sins.

Yeah—the kid would not have a good time in their school. The family should find a more accepting environment.

405 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:36:05pm

I have never been polled, even though I have been voting for more than 30 years. If they asked me who I trust more: President Obama or certain members of the Senate and Congress, I would say Obama too. But that’s like asking me if I trust a con man more than an IRS auditor with a bad attitude.

406 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:36:28pm

re: #390 Aceofwhat?


just me…i think a dispassionate view of the situation reveals i have more in common with a homosexual couple who share my beliefs closely than a heterosexual Catholic couple…and i love my Catholics…

I dunno.
I’m 1/2 of a heterosexual Catholic couple - and also a sinner. Just not that particular sin.
There ya go.

407 Ojoe  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:37:58pm

re: #401 Cato the Elder

Think Della Robbia Madonna

408 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:38:25pm

re: #400 reine.de.tout

And that’s where I will disagree with the archdiocese.
As far as I’m concerned, one should not disqualify children from education because of what they see as the parents’ sins.

I agree it was a shitty thing to do…espically since I have a feeling they don’t worry about hetro parents and their marital status and who they might be sleeping with.

It used to be that Catholics pretty much allowed anyone to attend the schools who could pay money and were willing to let their kids go to Mass daily or weekly and learn about the one true Church.

409 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:39:11pm

re: #406 reine.de.tout

I dunno.
I’m 1/2 of a heterosexual Catholic couple - and also a sinner. Just not that particular sin.
There ya go.

My wife is the volunteer pianist for our Catholic church. Two of my kids grew up in it, but later married out. The boys and I sleep in.

410 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:39:17pm

re: #406 reine.de.tout

I dunno.
I’m 1/2 of a heterosexual Catholic couple - and also a sinner. Just not that particular sin.
There ya go.

Ha! talk about characteristics that transcend our denominations!!

411 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:39:53pm

re: #400 reine.de.tout

And that’s where I will disagree with the archdiocese.
As far as I’m concerned, one should not disqualify children from education because of what they see as the parents’ sins.

My daughter had a friend in second grade. The parents did not attend Mass, and were very open and honest about that fact.

I can recall there were some whispers about that the friend may not be allowed to make her First Communion.

Thankfully, a sane head prevailed somewhere, and the kid made her First Communion with the rest of the class.

You just do not punish the kids because of what you think are the failings of the parents.

412 Ojoe  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:39:56pm

re: #408 webevintage

My Catholic high school in the 60s had enrolled also protestants and Buddhists. We all got along.

413 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:40:40pm

re: #407 Ojoe

Think Della Robbia Madonna

I collect Magnificats and Masses. You can take the boy out of the religion, but….

414 Ojoe  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:42:19pm

re: #413 Decatur Deb

Hey we’re all still in, if you consider the good, big picture, IMHO.

Plus everyone has a guardian angel and so forth.

There are some cool parts of this.


BBL …

415 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:42:24pm

re: #412 Ojoe

My Catholic high school in the 60s had enrolled also protestants and Buddhists. We all got along.

The whole idea is about providing a Catholic education to children of the Parish while also reaching out and, hopefully, imparting the faith to others who may one day decide to join the Church.

416 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:43:11pm

re: #412 Ojoe

My Catholic high school in the 60s had enrolled also protestants and Buddhists. We all got along.

Mine couldn’t tolerate Dominicans. We did have a token pre-Trappist, but he came back to the Franciscans. Now he’s archbishop of Boston.

417 Cato the Elder  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:43:37pm

re: #415 webevintage

The whole idea is about providing a Catholic education to children of the Parish while also reaching out and, hopefully, imparting the faith to others who may one day decide to join the Church.

The reaching out part worked for me. Just much later in life.

Never too late…

418 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:44:00pm

I saw some of his work in Florence:Fra Filippo Lippi

419 Ojoe  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:44:26pm

re: #416 Decatur Deb

The guy in my avatar, Thomas Merton, was a Trappist.

Now, BBL,

ZZZzzzzz

420 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:45:01pm

re: #418 prairiefire

Yes—mostly at the San Marco “convent”.

421 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:45:49pm

re: #420 Decatur Deb

Yes, then off to the shops!!!

422 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:46:56pm

This religion discussion lacks passion. Where’s Idioma? Oh, never mind…

423 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:47:06pm

re: #413 Decatur Deb

I collect Magnificats and Masses. You can take the boy out of the religion, but…

I collect vintage Mary statues and vintage holy cards along with kitchy vstuff like my 3D Last Supper picture.

424 reine.de.tout  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:47:13pm

re: #422 Decatur Deb

This religion discussion lacks passion. Where’s Idioma? Oh, never mind…

Oh, gah!
Puh-leeeeeeeeeeze!

425 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:47:46pm

re: #423 webevintage

I collect vintage Mary statues and vintage holy cards along with kitchy vstuff like my 3D Last Supper picture.

Do the eyes follow you?

426 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:48:39pm

re: #425 Decatur Deb

Do the eyes follow you?

On some of them.
Creepy, but not as creepy as decorative dolls or clowns.

427 HelloDare  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:50:55pm

I just got to this thread. Sorry if somebody already posted this.


55% Say Congress Should Start Over On Health Care

Following a small bounce in support following his health care summit last week, President Obama has continued to try to rally House Democrats to vote for his health care overhaul. He wants the legislation approved by the Senate passed in December as a “first step” towards further improvements of the plan.

However, most U.S. voters (55%) would rather see Congress scrap the original plan and start all over again, according to the latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey.

Still, the president has made some progress among the public. Thirty-seven percent (37%) now think it would be better to build on the health care plan that has been working its way through the House and Senate as a starting point. That’s up from 28% in February.

Democrats, by a 66% to 25% margin, support building on the current plan making its way through Congress. Republicans overwhelmingly take the opposite view, with 85% who say it would be better the scrap the current plan and start over. Unaffiliated voters, by a nearly two-to-one margin, also favor starting over.

The president’s health care summit last week seems to have nudged up support for the reform plan, but 52% of U.S. voters continue to oppose it. Forty-four percent (44%) are now in favor of the plan. New weekly tracking numbers on voter support for the health care plan will be released Monday.

428 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:54:37pm

re: #427 HelloDare

Did Rasmussen use their “Likely Voter” model for this one? It usually yields a
more conservative answer than “Registered” or “All Adults”.

429 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:56:05pm

re: #427 HelloDare

I just got to this thread. Sorry if somebody already posted this.

Bah!
They only let “premium members” see the questions and crosstabs.
Bah! I say.

430 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:58:26pm

Sixty percent (60%) of voters believe Democrats should change the bill to win support from a reasonable number of GOP’s.


hahahahahahaha
Then they know nothing about the Republican party in 2010.
The Dems could give them everything they ask for and the Republicans would still vote no.
Silly rabbits…

431 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 2:59:53pm

re: #430 webevintage

Sixty percent (60%) of voters believe Democrats should change the bill to win support from a reasonable number of GOP’s.

hahahahahahaha
Then they know nothing about the Republican party in 2010.
The Dems could give them everything they ask for and the Republicans would still vote no.
Silly rabbits…

Plus, Rasmussen.
Enough said.

432 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:00:08pm

re: #430 webevintage

Sixty percent (60%) of voters believe Democrats should change the bill to win support from a reasonable number of GOP’s.

hahahahahahaha
Then they know nothing about the Republican party in 2010.
The Dems could give them everything they ask for and the Republicans would still vote no.
Silly rabbits…

I would actually like to see a new bill, but Sen McConnell wouldn’t be happy with it.

433 HelloDare  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:03:02pm

re: #429 webevintage

Bah!
They only let “premium members” see the questions and crosstabs.
Bah! I say.

Here are the questions. Crosstabs do require membership.

434 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:04:30pm

re: #431 iceweasel

Plus, Rasmussen.
Enough said.

I’ve decided that unless a polling organization is willing to give the breakdown of the people polled (age, sex, race, political affiliation and region would be nice) and the questions asked then the poll is basically useless.

435 webevintage  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:05:14pm

re: #434 webevintage

I’ve decided that unless a polling organization is willing to give the breakdown of the people polled (age, sex, race, political affiliation and region would be nice) and the questions asked then the poll is basically useless.

well shit, never mind, i’m obviously an idiot today…

436 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:08:24pm

re: #422 Decatur Deb

This religion discussion lacks passion. Where’s Idioma? Oh, never mind…

mmm. still confusing ‘respect’ with ‘believing it just because you say so’, unless i miss my mark.

437 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:10:59pm

re: #431 iceweasel

Plus, Rasmussen.
Enough said.

really? worse than the pollster of choice at Kos?

i’ve been taking both at relatively face value, unless something in the sample really jumps out at me. Has ‘mussen gotten reliably unreliable lately?

438 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:11:35pm

re: #435 webevintage

well shit, never mind, i’m obviously an idiot today…

Well, without the questions at a minimum it’s worthless, absolutely. Rasmussen’s questions have consistently revealed framing bias, (so does their selection for polling often, too.)

439 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:15:00pm

My favorite pollsterNate Silver

440 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:15:16pm

re: #437 Aceofwhat?

really? worse than the pollster of choice at Kos?

i’ve been taking both at relatively face value, unless something in the sample really jumps out at me. Has ‘mussen gotten reliably unreliable lately?

Oh hell yes. Research 2000 is reputable. Rasmussen is worthless. I have shitloads of links but I’m kinda beat at the moment— you could search my nic for the term Rasmussen to pull up tons of posts.

Also CJ has some comments about one specific Rasmussen poll yesterday on one of the Pentagon shooter threads, if you look. It’s a perfect example of their dishonest tactics.
(I’ll give you more information on it later, i promise, but I’m talking to Jimmah just now. :) )

441 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:15:44pm

re: #439 prairiefire

My favorite pollsterNate Silver

Seconded! Nate’s the man!

442 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:17:36pm

re: #441 iceweasel

Hi, Ice. i hope you and Jimmah are well, or are you sick,too? I know Floral and SFZ are right now.

443 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:18:23pm

re: #442 prairiefire

Hi, Ice. i hope you and Jimmah are well, or are you sick,too? I know Floral and SFZ are right now.

Hi prariefire! We’re good, thanks for asking! How are you?

444 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:21:52pm

re: #440 iceweasel

Oh hell yes. Research 2000 is reputable. Rasmussen is worthless. I have shitloads of links but I’m kinda beat at the moment— you could search my nic for the term Rasmussen to pull up tons of posts.

Also CJ has some comments about one specific Rasmussen poll yesterday on one of the Pentagon shooter threads, if you look. It’s a perfect example of their dishonest tactics.
(I’ll give you more information on it later, i promise, but I’m talking to Jimmah just now. :) )

heh. i know where i rank in that conversation.

but IIRC, Rasmussen nails elections.

i was suckered by the same poll that Charles references. my conclusion, then, as stated above - like many other pollsters, he is accurate given the questions or samples don’t reveal obvious bias.

445 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:22:05pm

re: #443 iceweasel

We are good, thanks. I have had two contagion notices from my boy’s school for cases of Scabies in his classroom. Shudder. I am on high alert for little varmints.

446 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:24:09pm

re: #437 Aceofwhat?

Rasumussen gets a bad rap mostly because of the misuse of their output by sponsors and third parties (Ya hearin’ me RCP?). Nate Silver gives them props as long as you understand what they’re trying to measure.

447 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:25:00pm

re: #445 prairiefire

Oh yikes, that is bad. Good luck! Hope you don’t see any signs of the beasties.
So glad you like Nate too. I think he’s great.

448 HelloDare  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:25:05pm

re: #439 prairiefire

My favorite pollsterNate Silver

According to your favorite pollster, Americans are opposed to the the current Healthcare bill

Popularity of Health Care Bill Unchanged Since House Vote in November
by Nate Silver @ 6:14 PM

On November 8th, when the House narrowly voted to approve the Democrats’ health care bill, voters opposed the measure by about a 49-42 margin, according to the Pollster.com trendline. Right now, the numbers are — well, almost exactly the same: 50.2-42.5 against if you want to be precise:

449 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:27:35pm

Am I bothrd’?Youtube Video

450 Decatur Deb  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:27:46pm

re: #448 HelloDare

That’s Nate reporting on a Pollster poll, not his numbers.

451 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:28:14pm

re: #444 Aceofwhat?

heh. i know where i rank in that conversation.

but IIRC, Rasmussen nails elections.

i was suckered by the same poll that Charles references. my conclusion, then, as stated above - like many other pollsters, he is accurate given the questions or samples don’t reveal obvious bias.

The interesting thing about Rasmussen was that their polling was an outlier for almost all of the election, esp in the swing states. They only hauled it into line right before the election.
Scott Rasmussen isn’t a stupid poller, — on the contrary. He’s just a highly ideologically motivated one. The whole introduction of the “presidental approval rating” business is a perfect example.

(the bit where they take the difference between the most pro and most con and trumpet that figure as if it means anything.)

452 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:29:02pm

re: #446 Decatur Deb

Rasumussen gets a bad rap mostly because of the misuse of their output by sponsors and third parties (Ya hearin’ me RCP?). Nate Silver gives them props as long as you understand what they’re trying to measure.

i totally forgot about Nate - props to Ice and Prairiefire for that. Amalgamations of polls are usually the safest route, anyway, imho, on issues of pure opinion.

453 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:29:41pm

re: #451 iceweasel

The interesting thing about Rasmussen was that their polling was an outlier for almost all of the election, esp in the swing states. They only hauled it into line right before the election.
Scott Rasmussen isn’t a stupid poller, — on the contrary. He’s just a highly ideologically motivated one. The whole introduction of the “presidental approval rating” business is a perfect example.

(the bit where they take the difference between the most pro and most con and trumpet that figure as if it means anything.)

i see what you mean. well elucidated.

454 Aceofwhat?  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:33:11pm

re: #449 prairiefire

oh, i am saving that for the next time i accidentally say “prog”…

*ducks*

455 iceweasel  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:33:39pm

re: #453 Aceofwhat?

i see what you mean. well elucidated.

Cheers!
as i said, Scott Rasmussen isn’t someone who doesn’t know how to conduct a poll. There probably are some Rasmussen polls that are good, but history indicates that they should be approached with extreme caution, with attention paid to who they polled and what questions were asked.
You have to do that with any poll anyway, but the history of ideological bias and framing in the RR reports definitely means triple check. IMO.

456 prairiefire  Sat, Mar 6, 2010 3:37:04pm

The youtube embed is a blast. Back in the day my nick name was KTel.


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