The first comment at Richard's site compares me to David Duke, Don Black, and Ernst Zundel. What? Not Hitler?

re: #1 Charles

The first comment at Richard's site compares me to David Duke, Don Black, and Ernst Zundel. What? Not Hitler?

They don't want to Godwin so early.

listening now

One note -- while it's not incorrect to say that you've been criticizing the hard right for the last year, you've really been on this track for three years - 2007 and the rise of Ron Paul comes to mind.

re: #1 Charles

The first comment at Richard's site compares me to David Duke, Don Black, and Ernst Zundel. What? Not Hitler?

Got to work up to that, build up some steam. They don't want to blow their load too soon.

re: #1 Charles

The first comment at Richard's site compares me to David Duke, Don Black, and Ernst Zundel. What? Not Hitler?

Eva Braun.

Lol@ 'The fish is not dead yet.'

It's not playing for me.

This is super motivational for me. Good stuff. Still listening...

re: #8 prairiefire

Nevermind.

re: #6 Alouette

Eva needs a pony-tail.

Very interesting interview. I watched the entire 25 minutes that was posted there. I don't usually watch these sorts of interview things for more than about 10 minutes . . .

Anybody who has links to Nick Cave and Bette Midler is groovy to me.

Charles, you're laptop was right there.

Did you have to whack (can't think of his name, young something or other) anybody while you were being interviewed?

Is the second half of the video available online?

re: #14 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Charles, you're laptop was right there.

Did you have to whack (can't think of his name, young something or other) anybody while you were being interviewed?

heh. catching a flounce on video = good clean fun

Sorry if I'm being a jerk, but Metzger is talking more than the guy he's interviewing. Guy thinks he's Hannity.

OT (already?):

Climate change skepticism a litmus test for GOP

Even GOP presidential candidate John McCain, who argued often with climate skeptics on the 2008 primary campaign trail, recently played along with a Fox News interviewer who mocked global warming. In the face of a stiff primary challenge for his Senate re-election, McCain has backed away from his support for emissions limits.

"The new political expediency is to be a global warming skeptic," said Marc Morano, executive editor of the skeptic clearinghouse Web site ClimateDepot.com and a former aide to outspoken skeptic Sen. James Inhofe, R-Okla.

[...]

"The vast majority of people support the bill because of the benefits," said Tony Kreindler, a spokesman for the Environmental Defense Fund, "and not because of the science."

The Senate's newest member may prove the greatest test of that theory. Before his upset special-election victory, Scott Brown, R-Mass., expressed concerns over the integrity and certainty of climate science. Shortly after taking office, he sought out colleagues Olympia Snowe, R-Maine, and Maria Cantwell, D-Wash., who have introduced a "cap-and-dividend" bill to limit emissions, force emitters to buy government permits and send most of the proceeds straight back to taxpayers.

Cantwell said in a recent interview that the three senators chatted about the bill for five to seven minutes during a floor debate.

Hmmm... is Morano still trying to determine the GOP's talking points? And, will Scott Brown go off the Tea Party reservation again?

That was a very interesting interview. When will part 2 be available?

re: #17 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sorry if I'm being a jerk, but Metzger is talking more than the guy he's interviewing. Guy thinks he's Hannity.

I think he's actually doing a very good job. He does talk a bit bit I think he does it to keep the conversation moving along. He knows when to be quiet and best of all he does seem to actually listen.

Here's part 2.

re: #21 Charles

Cool. Thanks Charles!

Great interview, Charles. Clear headed thing is much apprectiated.

re: #23 prairiefire

PIMF thinking, geez.

re: #20 Killgore Trout

In all fairness, his interviewee is not the most "talky talky" person on the planet.

Charles is more talkative than Corbin Dallas with Ruby Rhod, but less talkative than most.

re: #24 prairiefire

PIMF thinking, geez.

#23 was better...

re: #25 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

MULTI-PASS

Great interview, just finished part two.

It made me think back to when I first started getting creeped out by the hard right. It was with the attacks on Bush and McCain from the paleos. The ones that were saying "Muslims can't do Democracy" (Iraq voted today even while terrorists tried their damnedest to see that they didn't) The hardcore anti immigration crowd sure turned out to be rancid too once you peeled back the curtain and those were the folks attacking Bush and McCain. Those are the people driving the tea party now, I call 'em the "Clash of Civilizations" crowd.

Mr. Metzger flies his liberal colors more in the second interview.

re: #29 prairiefire

Didn't make it to the second. It was obvious.

The Right are making some huge mistakes right now, ain't gonna make me a lefty though.

re: #30 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Didn't make it to the second. It was obvious.

The Right are making some huge mistakes right now, ain't gonna make me a lefty though.

Don't have to be a lefty to vote for democrats. ;-)

re: #31 WindUpBird

Don't have to be a lefty to vote for democrats. ;-)

You don't even have to be living.

re: #32 Walter L. Newton

You don't even have to be living.

That's such an oldie goldie.

OT: A piece of history destroyed by fire; owner vows to rebuild.

re: #31 WindUpBird

I have no problem voting for a Democrat. I easily vote for Obama over Paul.

I just don't want to have to make a choice like that.

I like the interview, but to be honest Metzger is a bit of a prick.

re: #36 Irenicum

I dare say someone might call him an elitist. Not me...

Best interview to date.

Richard Metzger did a great job.

re: #32 Walter L. Newton

You don't even have to be living.

We're all well aware that vampires and the undead in general are a strong Democratic voting bloc. :D You ever been to a Sisters of Mercy show? You think those people vote GOP?

re: #33 Stanley Sea

That's such an oldie goldie.

And still fucking funny.

re: #40 Walter L. Newton

And still fucking funny.

To you my friend! I get bored.

I liked Metzger because he was honest and upfront without being crazy or rabid and you really don't have to guess where he stands.

Around the 7:30 mark Richard and Charles talk about homeschooling and creationism. In the wee hours of the morning I wrote a short bit about that topic.

The question I rose is whether US states should follow an Australian state's lead and require that private institutions, even religious ones, teach that evolution is correct science, and not creationism.

I extended that question to homeschooling.

It's a tough issue for any of us who think truth deserves to be defended yet also realize that rights/responsibilities wrt children are/should mostly be burdened by parents.

pimf "raised"

re: #42 Thanos

I agree with you there. I actually agree with most of where he's coming from. I guess my beef is with his attitude.

He brings up a great point at 7:20 in part 2 about how the MSM doesn't really expose the Tea Parties as idiots. I think the MSM certainly has a liberal bias but they are corporate driven and they don't really want to offend anybody, including conservatives. I've been noticing that the MSM is covering the IRS and Pentagon attacks in the same way they've been covering Jihad attacks. If it's a blatantly obvious organized attack that can be linked to Al qaeda then the MSM will bring it up. But most small attacks like Ft. Hood or something they'll sweep the motivation under the rug. They're doing the same with the Pentagon shooter.

re: #40 Walter L. Newton

And still fucking funny.

Not only do dead democrats vote, they beat living Republicans in elections! The ravenous cryptdwellers know who's looking out for them.

I heart Charles. I don't heart Metzger.

I hope that's okay.

Time to run. BBL

re: #46 Killgore Trout

He brings up a great point at 7:20 in part 2 about how the MSM doesn't really expose the Tea Parties as idiots. I think the MSM certainly has a liberal bias but they are corporate driven and they don't really want to offend anybody, including conservatives. I've been noticing that the MSM is covering the IRS and Pentagon attacks in the same way they've been covering Jihad attacks. If it's a blatantly obvious organized attack that can be linked to Al qaeda then the MSM will bring it up. But most small attacks like Ft. Hood or something they'll sweep the motivation under the rug. They're doing the same with the Pentagon shooter.

The false equivalency faker "there's always two sides!" thing in cable news makes me crazy on a daily basis.

re: #39 WindUpBird

We're all well aware that vampires and the undead in general are a strong Democratic voting bloc. :D You ever been to a Sisters of Mercy show? You think those people vote GOP?

Do you think those people vote? :-)

The Sisters of Mercy is sooo 1980s - but Lucretia is ageless

re: #43 freetoken

Probably much better to defend truth in science without getting a public agency into the middle of the parent/child relationship.

Metzgers eyebrows are artificial, small servos to operate them somehow

A motherlode of creationist ignorance and anti-science bad craziness at Free Republic:

[Link: www.freerepublic.com...]

re: #43 freetoken

I probably disagree with you there FT, it's America and you have the right to be stupid and ignorant. That's part of being free. I wouldn't want the Progressives to try to be coercive in that area for home schoolers for several reasons. Mostly because that's a fight the religious right wants and is actively seeking out. It would be a lose for science teaching.

re: #45 Irenicum

I agree with you there. I actually agree with most of where he's coming from. I guess my beef is with his attitude.

Yeah he gets a bit snippy, but you know I would rather chat with him on any subject than Andrew Breitbart.

re: #51 jaunte

re: #54 Thanos

Let me rephrase my question this way: Is there anything a homeschooling parent might teach their children that you think would be over-the-line, in a way that would require outside intervention to correct?

re: #55 Thanos

I'd bleed from my eyes if I had to sit in the same room with bratbart.

re: #50 ryannon

Do you think those people vote? :-)

The Sisters of Mercy is sooo 1980s - but Lucretia is ageless

Lucretia is one of my go-to karaoke songs. I have the KJ just drench me in reverb, it's fantastic. :D

And yes, they're 80's, but I still love them. Also the Fields, also Puppy, also Killing Joke, also Thrill Kill Kult, Also Siouxie...

Pausing about a third of the way in Part 1 to nip back and dissent on this point: I don't believe that the homeschoolers' deficient science education places them at a long term disadvantage to their public schooled peers. The homeschoolers I've known, if you'll pardon the argument from anecdote, are bright, responsible, happy, confident, and capable. I believe that the beneficial effect of the sheer quantity of parental involvement in their upbringing puts them in great shape to cope with life, trumping the wrong-headed of the creationism many of them are taught.

re: #54 Thanos

I probably disagree with you there FT, it's America and you have the right to be stupid and ignorant. That's part of being free. I wouldn't want the Progressives to try to be coercive in that area for home schoolers for several reasons. Mostly because that's a fight the religious right wants and is actively seeking out. It would be a lose for science teaching.

yeah, I think ultrareligious homeschooling is creepy, but I don't know that I can support preventing them from doing it. I just think there should be serious standards that homeschoolers (and school-ees) should have to achieve to prove that they are actually capable of teaching a kid the material.

re: #56 freetoken

Well, practically speaking, the outside intervention comes when over-the-line ideas received at home encounter the outside world, which is inevitable. I just think the idea of intervention opens too much of a can of worms. Imagine if it's a conservative administration that's implementing it and deciding which ideas deserve intervention.

re: #43 freetoken

Around the 7:30 mark Richard and Charles talk about homeschooling and creationism. In the wee hours of the morning I wrote a short bit about that topic.

The question I rose is whether US states should follow an Australian state's lead and require that private institutions, even religious ones, teach that evolution is correct science, and not creationism.

I extended that question to homeschooling.

It's a tough issue for any of us who think truth deserves to be defended yet also realize that rights/responsibilities wrt children are/should mostly be burdened by parents.

I think that drawing firm lines with regard to "hard" sciences doesn't really infringe...but how would you enforce such a thing?

re: #59 The Sanity Inspector

Pausing about a third of the way in Part 1 to nip back and dissent on this point: I don't believe that the homeschoolers' deficient science education places them at a long term disadvantage to their public schooled peers. The homeschoolers I've known, if you'll pardon the argument from anecdote, are bright, responsible, happy, confident, and capable. I believe that the beneficial effect of the sheer quantity of parental involvement in their upbringing puts them in great shape to cope with life, trumping the wrong-headed of the creationism many of them are taught.

I'd say it puts the in a disadvantage of their kids were to display aptitude in science, but I think overall you're right. Being a creationist doesn't mean you can't have a nice career. (Hell, I know very smart, very upper-middle-class 100K+ earning people who are full on 9/11 truther types) Certainly beats being a latchkey kid.

re: #56 freetoken

re: #54 Thanos

Let me rephrase my question this way: Is there anything a homeschooling parent might teach their children that you think would be over-the-line, in a way that would require outside intervention to correct?

You mean like violent overthrow of the Gubmint? Pedophelia is a blessing from God? That the only law they can with a good conscience follow is the strictest interpretation of Sharia?

Nope, can't think of a thing.

re: #56 freetoken

re: #54 Thanos

Let me rephrase my question this way: Is there anything a homeschooling parent might teach their children that you think would be over-the-line, in a way that would require outside intervention to correct?

The neo nazi case in Canada came the closest - basically teaching and indoctrinating hate is where the line gets crossed in my mind.
Other than that, it's just wrong and un-american to interfer, and in the US the court would have reached a different decision than the Canadian court did I would wager. (This is the one where they took the children away from Neo Nazi parents who were sending them to school with swastikas drawn on them with indelible marker...)

re: #59 The Sanity Inspector

Pausing about a third of the way in Part 1 to nip back and dissent on this point: I don't believe that the homeschoolers' deficient science education places them at a long term disadvantage to their public schooled peers. The homeschoolers I've known, if you'll pardon the argument from anecdote, are bright, responsible, happy, confident, and capable. I believe that the beneficial effect of the sheer quantity of parental involvement in their upbringing puts them in great shape to cope with life, trumping the wrong-headed of the creationism many of them are taught.

And not everyone who homeschools, does so for purposes of religious indoctrincation.

re: #47 WindUpBird

God Bless Governor Carnahan.

re: #53 Charles

Jeepers creepers how 'bout them Freepers!

re: #66 reine.de.tout

I admire Emmie G for doing it. I in no way have the capacity to do so.

re: #56 freetoken

re: #54 Thanos

Let me rephrase my question this way: Is there anything a homeschooling parent might teach their children that you think would be over-the-line, in a way that would require outside intervention to correct?

biology, chemistry, physics, grammar, spelling and math seem non-negotiable. The trouble is that if a parent really wants to teach creationism, they'll teach the kid to fake the right answers if you attempted to "test" the hooey out of them. So i don't know how you'd get around that.

re: #69 prairiefire

I admire Emmie G for doing it. I in no way have the capacity to do so.

I could not have done it either.
No way.
But daughter goes to an excellent school (at a very nice price) and we are quite happy with her education.

re: #65 Thanos

Well, as I mentioned last night I've changed my mind a bit on this subject. The Canadian example you shared would lead me to believe I would agree with the Canadian court, and it would have made for an interesting US court case.

With angst over education apparently growing - certainly it seems to be a common talking point amongst politicians - the homeschooling movement gets stronger.

I suspect that this issue will grow over the next couple of years, and especially if funding crises force US states to cut education budgets to a point where the school day gets shortened.

well, that's enough Metzger for me...he's fairly into himself and his style is nerve wracking

re: #62 Aceofwhat?

I think that drawing firm lines with regard to "hard" sciences doesn't really infringe...but how would you enforce such a thing?

Not all home schooled children are being home schooled for the purpose of educating them in questionable theories.

I agree that there are home schooling going on precisely for the reasons of teaching no-science "science" but I don't think it's good to dump all home schooling in one bucket.

There are other reasons.

re: #60 WindUpBird

yeah, I think ultrareligious homeschooling is creepy, but I don't know that I can support preventing them from doing it. I just think there should be serious standards that homeschoolers (and school-ees) should have to achieve to prove that they are actually capable of teaching a kid the material.

Eh. No offense to teachers in the group, but there are plenty of teachers out there whose education degree doesn't make them a better biology teacher than a parent with a ___ degree, given that the parent has the advantage of more quality time with the student...

(and standardized tests are imperfect but still useful...)

re: #60 WindUpBird

The way I look at it is "Would it make sense if we were to apply the rule to the Amish, the reservation Indians, etc." I think interfering with child raising would bolster the creationist "we are viktims and they are stealing our freeedumbs!!" case very strongly.

That's why they slipped in that Asylum thing for the home schooler from Europe the other day. They are looking for that fight and I sincerely hope that the far left fringe idiots do not take the stinky bait they are throwing out there.

re: #71 reine.de.tout

I'm very happy with mine, as well. It's an important subject.

re: #61 jaunte

Well, practically speaking, the outside intervention comes when over-the-line ideas received at home encounter the outside world, which is inevitable. I just think the idea of intervention opens too much of a can of worms. Imagine if it's a conservative administration that's implementing it and deciding which ideas deserve intervention.

how do homeschoolers get a diploma?...don't they have to be tested?

re: #64 austin_blue

You mean like violent overthrow of the Gubmint? Pedophelia is a blessing from God? That the only law they can with a good conscience follow is the strictest interpretation of Sharia?

Nope, can't think of a thing.

would love to know how you'd find out the parent was teaching that if they didn't want you to find out they were teaching that.

I don't think there's any way to stop homeschoolers from teaching creationism to their children, although I definitely do believe it's a mild form of child abuse to teach children fairy tales and tell them it's reality. Some kids will eventually come out of it and learn to think for themselves, but many won't.

And I think the vast majority of homeschoolers are using the books provided by Bob Jones University -- which are 100% pure ignorant young earth creationist.

But if you check out the Free Republic thread I posted -- these are the people who are homeschooling their kids. And that is scary, because they're not just teaching creationism -- they're indoctrinating children into a general world view that's deeply wrong and destructive.

An argument can be made that it's bad for the country when we instill anti-science views in kids. But I still wouldn't agree with trying to stop them through legislation.

re: #43 freetoken

Around the 7:30 mark Richard and Charles talk about homeschooling and creationism. In the wee hours of the morning I wrote a short bit about that topic.

The question I rose is whether US states should follow an Australian state's lead and require that private institutions, even religious ones, teach that evolution is correct science, and not creationism.

I extended that question to homeschooling.

It's a tough issue for any of us who think truth deserves to be defended yet also realize that rights/responsibilities wrt children are/should mostly be burdened by parents.

I would be loathe to grant the state the right to decide what is "correct" and what is not. It ought to be sufficient to insist that students, home schooled or not, be able to pass a set of standardized tests demonstrating proficiency in subject like math, science, composition, history and so forth. If creationist home-schoolers decide to teach to the test, and still deride the subject, at least the basics are there by rote. But insisting that people accept what's taught as "correct" smacks uncomfortably of indoctrination rather than education. There's just something about it that bothers me.

On a practical note: if the loons in Texas has their way with the nation's textbooks, you may well find yourself demanding the ability to home school.

re: #74 Walter L. Newton

Not all home schooled children are being home schooled for the purpose of educating them in questionable theories.

I agree that there are home schooling going on precisely for the reasons of teaching no-science "science" but I don't think it's good to dump all home schooling in one bucket.

There are other reasons.

i totally agree. i don't mind the use of standardized tests as an equalizer. beyond that, the theoretical discussion is interesting but I really don't know how we'd enforce such things without (a) banning homeschooling outright or (b) getting really creepy with surveillance.

re: #74 Walter L. Newton

Exactly Walter. I've lived in both very conservative and very liberal areas. And I've seen both communities have their homeschooling advocates. Back in the day, when I thought I was going to get married and have kids, I seriously considered homeschooling as an option, simply because the public system was so broken. So, in one sense, I'm still a strong homeschooling advocate, but with the important proviso that real science needs to be taught if I want my child to excel in the real world.

re: #78 albusteve

how do homeschoolers get a diploma?...don't they have to be tested?

I guess that's where I'm concerned. Can they take & pass the SAT? Can they get into a University not named Liberty? If yes, OK with me. Now, I hope we don't get any home schooled Bachelors degrees anytime soon.

re: #79 Aceofwhat?

not to mention the fact that parents can teach their children whatever they want and also send them to school. if your concern is indoctrination into crazy. being homeschooled is not the deciding factor in that.

My main criticism of this video is that Charles seems too capable of speaking what's on his mind. There weren't nearly enough instances of "uhh, umm, err, well, ya know, like" etc. for my taste. You'll no doubt have also noticed that he shamelessly glossed over his newfound predilection for cannibalism and human sacrifice.

re: #84 Stanley Sea

I guess that's where I'm concerned. Can they take & pass the SAT? Can they get into a University not named Liberty? If yes, OK with me. Now, I hope we don't get any home schooled Bachelors degrees anytime soon.

I don't get the big deal about learning things someone doesn't think they should...that's not the issue so why go there?...are there standards being met?

re: #86 negativ

I needed a belly laugh and you just gave me that! Wow. Classic.

Yep -- the first stalker just showed up at Metzger's site.

re: #87 albusteve

I don't get the big deal about learning things someone doesn't think they should...that's not the issue so why go there?...are there standards being met?

It's the concern that the US is already behind in science, so why set up a situation where that gets worse.

Science is the key to our future, says one who did better at language.

re: #84 Stanley Sea

I believe the statistics of home schooled kids going on to college are very high, with high SAT scores as well:[Link: answers.yahoo.com...]

re: #89 Charles

Ya gotta figure it would only be a matter of time.

I home schooled my youngest daughter for two years. The subject of God was not part of the curricula. The work was done via long distance education through U.T.

Why? Because the public system had completely failed her in math and science, that's why. Her teachers were unmotivated and unqualified in their subject matter and she was becoming very discouraged.

In short, it was an intervention. She was most certainly going to fail given the trajectory at the time. I got her back up to speed and then she returned to finish high school - prepared.

It is easy to demonize home schooling. The truth is often different from what is imagined however.

re: #91 prairiefire

I believe the statistics of home schooled kids going on to college are very high, with high SAT scores as well:[Link: answers.yahoo.com...]

...the National Center for Education Statistics says only 36 percent of homeschooled students are kept home for religious reasons.

re: #89 Charles

industrious little kniggets, aren't they...

Btw: Charles point on "mild form of child abuse" is absolutely correct.

On the other hand it's not always wrong to lie to children - when a six yr old asks you about death well... that's always a discussion. I couldn't be honest because that's a little young to confront the big nothing if you aren't Charles Wallace...

The lies that engender hate, those that aren't just white lies to comfort, those that twist reality, those that destroy critical thinking.. those lies are just wrong. To very young children I will rarely tell tales to comfort - but I would never do it as "class".. that's just wrong.

re: #90 Stanley Sea

It's the concern that the US is already behind in science, so why set up a situation where that gets worse.

Science is the key to our future, says one who did better at language.

kids learn all kinds of stuff from their parents and churches etc...the issue is how well educated are they when they get a diploma and where do those standards originate?...tough shit if your kids are creationists, they still have to learn the science, and public schools don't guarantee anything...to me it's about freedom, not dogma

There's some really funny stuff at Dangerous Minds. Like this and this.

If that's the same "Biff" over there who used that name at LGF, he was banned for comparing Barack Obama to Hitler.

re: #94 Walter L. Newton

...the National Center for Education Statistics says only 36 percent of homeschooled students are kept home for religious reasons.

and then of that percentage, many go on to 'typical' universities.

said it before...on a sanity bet, i'll take the person homeschooled for any reason who went to State U. over the person who went to public high school and then Liberty college...

re: #93 The Shadow Do

I agree. If I had kids I would seriously consider homeschooling them as well. I just don't think the public school academic standards are high enough. I'm not sure how many people home school for academic reasons. I do know that a lot of people do it for religious and social reasons to keep their children from "liberal indoctrination". Many of those kids will grow up damaged and will have a lot of difficulty competing in the modern world.

re: #93 The Shadow Do

I home schooled my youngest daughter for two years. The subject of God was not part of the curricula. The work was done via long distance education through U.T.

Why? Because the public system had completely failed her in math and science, that's why. Her teachers were unmotivated and unqualified in their subject matter and she was becoming very discouraged.

In short, it was an intervention. She was most certainly going to fail given the trajectory at the time. I got her back up to speed and then she returned to finish high school - prepared.

It is easy to demonize home schooling. The truth is often different from what is imagined however.

That's actually a good point. I've nearly come to blows a couple of times with math and science teachers who were utterly incompetent, although it's never gotten so bad that I've felt like pulling my kids out of public school. They were isolated incidents, and it was simple to just tell the kids, "Your teacher doesn't know what he's talking about; THIS is how [whatever] really works." But if the problems were widespread and ongoing, I probably would have either looked for a private school or figured out some way to teach them myself.

Snow level down to 1,000 feet here in Portland. Unusual for this time of year.

re: #101 Killgore Trout

I agree. If I had kids I would seriously consider homeschooling them as well. I just don't think the public school academic standards are high enough. I'm not sure how many people home school for academic reasons. I do know that a lot of people do it for religious and social reasons to keep their children from "liberal indoctrination". Many of those kids will grow up damaged and will have a lot of difficulty competing in the modern world.

I sent mine to public school because I wanted to make sure they weren't missing anything that I would forget, but ... I also taught them everything I could, and showed them where and how to find things they didnt' know.

As the saying goes -- I told them that dragons don't exist and then took them to their lairs.

re: #99 Charles

amazing how often folks' screen names are eponymous...

re: #103 Killgore Trout

GLOBAL COOLING!

I have to say that "teaching children fairy tales as truth is close to child abuse" comes a bit close to knocking the American ideal of freedom of religion, IMHO.

I realize this statement is made in regard to known scientific fact, but still.

The "Biff" at LGF also advocated nuking Mecca.

re: #108 Charles

The "Biff" at LGF also advocated nuking Mecca.

Must have got his screen name from his hero, Biff Tannen.

re: #107 prairiefire

I have to say that "teaching children fairy tales as truth is close to child abuse" comes a bit close to knocking the American ideal of freedom of religion, IMHO.

I realize this statement is made in regard to known scientific fact, but still.

freedom to knock...that's the way it is

re: #107 prairiefire

I have to say that "teaching children fairy tales as truth is close to child abuse" comes a bit close to knocking the American ideal of freedom of religion, IMHO.

I realize this statement is made in regard to known scientific fact, but still.

I made it very clear that I wouldn't try to stop those parents from teaching lies to their children. But creationism has nothing to do with freedom of religion -- it's a Dark Ages, atavistic, anti-science mindset that is very damaging to a child's intellectual development.

re: #107 prairiefire

The example I used early this morning was of a parent who brazenly didn't care, and sounded happy with the idea, that her children wouldn't do well in sciences.

If this was the year 1200 and all children were meant to do was work out in the fields until they dropped dead... I suppose it wouldn't make a difference. But to have such attitudes as that parent in 2010 is very backwards, I propose.

re: #100 Aceofwhat?

and then of that percentage, many go on to 'typical' universities.

said it before...on a sanity bet, i'll take the person homeschooled for any reason who went to State U. over the person who went to public high school and then Liberty college...

And I know there are highly functional autistic children who respond better to home schooling then to regular classroom environments. I know some people who rallied Denver school system to cooperate and help set up homeschooling for these special needs children.

Homeschooling in itself does not equal far right connections.

Here's an interview with John Taylor Gatto at Dangerous Minds. He's very influential among homeschoolers on both the left and the right and among the religious and the non-religious.

re: #102 SixDegrees

That's actually a good point. I've nearly come to blows a couple of times with math and science teachers who were utterly incompetent, although it's never gotten so bad that I've felt like pulling my kids out of public school. They were isolated incidents, and it was simple to just tell the kids, "Your teacher doesn't know what he's talking about; THIS is how [whatever] really works." But if the problems were widespread and ongoing, I probably would have either looked for a private school or figured out some way to teach them myself.

She had a non-degreed math teacher for two years, and this was in an affluent school system.

re: #107 prairiefire

BS. You are free to believe anything you want, we are free to criticize you, your beliefs, and your damned haircut if we want.

re: #111 Charles

I made it very clear that I wouldn't try to stop those parents from teaching lies to their children. But creationism has nothing to do with freedom of religion -- it's a Dark Ages, atavistic, anti-science mindset that is very damaging to a child's intellectual development.

All religionist instruction is.

Victoria Jackson: "There's A Communist Living in the White House!!"

From the Pasadena Tea Party youtube page.

re: #116 Thanos

BS. You are free to believe anything you want, we are free to criticize you, your beliefs, and your damned haircut if we want.

I would think that dino riders would assume people will mock them

And by the way, children who are homeschooled in fundamentalist religions are often the very same people who grow up to be "culture warriors" -- and work to force their views onto other people's children. In fact, if you read the comments at Free Republic on any thread dealing with homeschooling, that's precisely the intent of many of these parents. They're indoctrinating their kids to be religious warriors.

re: #111 Charles

I made it very clear that I wouldn't try to stop those parents from teaching lies to their children. But creationism has nothing to do with freedom of religion -- it's a Dark Ages, atavistic, anti-science mindset that is very damaging to a child's intellectual development.

I've found a really easy way to piss creationists off. Tell them you're perfectly willing to support the teaching of creationism in schools - as part of a comparative religions class rather than as science. They go ballistic and start spraying spittle almost instantly.

re: #116 Thanos

BS. You are free to believe anything you want, we are free to criticize you, your beliefs, and your damned haircut if we want.

good luck with the haircut bit...

re: #122 Aceofwhat?

good luck with the haircut bit...

I say that because it's a rare day when I have a "good haircut" since I work from home. Mostly it's "Einstein hair" and "better put on a cap before I head to the store..."

re: #118 Killgore Trout

Victoria Jackson: "There's A Communist Living in the White House!!"

[Video]
From the Pasadena Tea Party youtube page.

At the end she says 'There's a cumminist living in the White House. Now what are we going to do about it?" followed by the sound of canon fire and the Tea Party logo. Lovely.

re: #117 Walter L. Newton

What do you mean by that? If you grow up in a not-insane church that uses the bible as a guide for morals instead of taking it literally, you usually end up just fine. I did, and I don't even practice organized religion anymore.

Sumerians Look On In Confusion As God Creates World

Members of the earth's earliest known civilization, the Sumerians, looked on in shock and confusion some 6,000 years ago as God, the Lord Almighty, created Heaven and Earth.

According to recently excavated clay tablets inscribed with cuneiform script, thousands of Sumerians—the first humans to establish systems of writing, agriculture, and government—were working on their sophisticated irrigation systems when the Father of All Creation reached down from the ether and blew the divine spirit of life into their thriving civilization.

"I do not understand," reads an ancient line of pictographs depicting the sun, the moon, water, and a Sumerian who appears to be scratching his head. "A booming voice is saying, 'Let there be light,' but there is already light. It is saying, 'Let the earth bring forth grass,' but I am already standing on grass."

"Everything is here already," the pictograph continues. "We do not need more stars."

re: #120 Charles

And by the way, children who are homeschooled in fundamentalist religions are often the very same people who grow up to be "culture warriors" -- and work to force their views onto other people's children. In fact, if you read the comments at Free Republic on any thread dealing with homeschooling, that's precisely the intent of many of these parents. They're indoctrinating their kids to be religious warriors.

That is some sick shit right there

re: #84 Stanley Sea

if these questions were asked of public high schools, the answers wouldn't be any different. if there is data that shows that the public school educated do better on the sat, are accepted to more colleges, or a more successful, i haven't seen it. the drop out rate in public high schools is abhorrent. class sizes are ridiculous. the number of children with learning and behavioral problems that have been lumped in with everyone else are things that the homeschooling parents i know have to consider. they want a safe environment to educate their children in more than just what is on the standardized tests. yes, homeschooling can go wrong, but i have seen it done right.

re: #118 Killgore Trout

And to think I used to really like her. ugh!

re: #123 Thanos

I say that because it's a rare day when I have a "good haircut" since I work from home. Mostly it's "Einstein hair" and "better put on a cap before I head to the store..."

heh. my hair's not tame either.

but criticizing the fairer sex's hair, while your right as a redblooded 'merican, is something i'd appreciate being warned of in advance so that i can clear the hell outta the room//

OMG!
The people talking in the red carpet show are going to melt my brain they are so stupid.
Seacrest needs to just STFU.

Hey Charles, I was under the impression you parted ways with the right because of the Ron Paultards, which really did bring out the ugly of the conservative movement back in 08.

Interesting that the creationist religionists were the first spark for you.

Understandable!

I am glad for your epiphany, you have been a good force behind exposing some really bad racist extremism.

re: #80 Charles

I don't think there's any way to stop homeschoolers from teaching creationism to their children, although I definitely do believe it's a mild form of child abuse to teach children fairy tales and tell them it's reality. Some kids will eventually come out of it and learn to think for themselves, but many won't.

And I think the vast majority of homeschoolers are using the books provided by Bob Jones University -- which are 100% pure ignorant young earth creationist.

But if you check out the Free Republic thread I posted -- these are the people who are homeschooling their kids. And that is scary, because they're not just teaching creationism -- they're indoctrinating children into a general world view that's deeply wrong and destructive.

An argument can be made that it's bad for the country when we instill anti-science views in kids. But I still wouldn't agree with trying to stop them through legislation.

Beck just did a show about the evils of public school "indoctrination" He mentioned AGW and "earth worship specifically" and lamented the lack of God in schools. It was a undisguised plea to home school, that to me is the real indoctrination.

re: #111 Charles

I'm in between you and Prariefire. I agree with what you meant. That sentence, on its own, without context, sounds more over-general than the ideas that were actually communicated in the interview. I raised an eyebrow about 1/8 of an inch.

re: #130 Aceofwhat?

I know! I was like where's the camera?/

re: #131 webevintage

OMG!
The people talking in the red carpet show are going to melt my brain they are so stupid.
Seacrest needs to just STFU.

Lolz. As opposed to the brainy red carpet hosts they usually field?/

re: #132 Spockista

Hey Charles, I was under the impression you parted ways with the right because of the Ron Paultards, which really did bring out the ugly of the conservative movement back in 08.

Interesting that the creationist religionists were the first spark for you.

Understandable!

I am glad for your epiphany, you have been a good force behind exposing some really bad racist extremism.

Actually, we didn't discuss it in this interview, but even before the creationism issue got hot at LGF, I was appalled and disgusted by the religious right's behavior in the Terri Schiavo case.

re: #117 Walter L. Newton

All? and are you defining 'religionist' differently from 'religious'?

re: #125 political lunatic

What do you mean by that? If you grow up in a not-insane church that uses the bible as a guide for morals instead of taking it literally, you usually end up just fine. I did, and I don't even practice organized religion anymore.

I mean all religious instruction is based on a foundation of mystical thinking, which is never good for young developing minds.

You can't use the bible "just" for morals. You mean the church you grew up in never discussed "g-d" or any of the other characters in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures?

It is immoral to use homes schooling for religio/idealogical reasons.

It is equally immoral to take away the possibility of home schooling.

re: #133 avanti

Beck just did a show about the evils of public school "indoctrination" He mentioned AGW and "earth worship specifically" and lamented the lack of God in schools. It was a undisguised plea to home school, that to me is the real indoctrination.

car salesmen do the same thing

re: #121 SixDegrees

I've found a really easy way to piss creationists off. Tell them you're perfectly willing to support the teaching of creationism in schools - as part of a comparative religions class rather than as science. They go ballistic and start spraying spittle almost instantly.

I was in a college class (argh like 14 years ago now) about fairy tales and myth and symbology of myth. Sounds easy, right? Nein! It was a 400 level english class (and I was one of the only non-English majors in it) that had some of the toughest coursework I've ever encountered, lots of examining Native American folk tales and Hindu belief systems. And there was this one older lady (mid 50s? Certain the oldest person in the class) and she just flipped her shit when the unit about the Bible started up. because that was THE TRUTH ABSOLUTELY and how dare you teach the bible in a class about myths!

I remember her getting pretty pissed at me in class discussions. 8-)

re: #138 keloyd

All? and are you defining 'religionist' differently from 'religious'?

I actually mistyped that word. I meant "all religious instruction is." Sorry.

re: #136 Aceofwhat?

Lolz. As opposed to the brainy red carpet hosts they usually field?/

I miss Joan Rivers.

re: #140 The Shadow Do

It is immoral to use homes schooling for religio/idealogical reasons.

It is equally immoral to take away the possibility of home schooling.

que? one can homeschool for religious reasons and still nail the sciences...

re: #140 The Shadow Do

It is immoral to use homes schooling for religio/idealogical reasons.

It is equally immoral to take away the possibility of home schooling.

therefore I propose that everybody mind their own damned business

re: #118 Killgore Trout

ahahah Victoria Jackson. Next up, Tina Yothers of Family Ties fame!

re: #141 albusteve

car salesmen do the same thing

Yes, but he's selling ignorance, and to me, more damaging then getting the wrong car.

re: #137 Charles

Ahh, yes Terry Shivo, that was orchestrated by Diener Consulting, which is headed by Mr. Philip Louis Sheldon, Jr., the son of the Rev. Lou Sheldon of the Traditional Values Coalition.

They then stuck Randall Terry as their front man, which enabled him to by a new house for his new young bride, after leaving his wife several years of marriage.

re: #139 Walter L. Newton

I mean all religious instruction is based on a foundation of mystical thinking, which is never good for young developing minds.

I have thought for a long time that the useful stuff in religion is not mystical in a pejorative sense, but is akin to engineering, i.e. the commandments are the rules that actually produce a good society, were they followed.

re: #141 albusteve

car salesmen do the same thing

Glenn Beck does not want you to find out that the 3rd cylinder on his show is misfiring and also there's rust on the undercarriage!

re: #148 avanti

Yes, but he's selling ignorance

and business is GOOD

re: #148 avanti

Yes, but he's selling ignorance, and to me, more damaging then getting the wrong car.

not your problem is it?...everybody pitches some thing...hopeandchange!

re: #139 Walter L. Newton

I mean all religious instruction is based on a foundation of mystical thinking, which is never good for young developing minds.

You can't use the bible "just" for morals. You mean the church you grew up in never discussed "g-d" or any of the other characters in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures?

Mysticism folds in nicely with art and literature. As such it sparks creativity and imagination.

When carried into empirical fields you do have serious trouble however.

re: #148 avanti

Yes, but he's selling ignorance, and to me, more damaging then getting the wrong car.

toyota owners disagree//

re: #137 Charles

Actually, we didn't discuss it in this interview, but even before the creationism issue got hot at LGF, I was appalled and disgusted by the religious right's behavior in the Terri Schiavo case.

I know a few people for whom that was their break with the GOP. When Schaivo hit, they renounced their Republican identity and became independent, haven't looked back.

re: #151 WindUpBird

Glenn Beck does not want you to find out that the 3rd cylinder on his show is misfiring and also there's rust on the undercarriage!

Glennie Becks Pre Owned Auto Wonderland!...stop in and see me!

re: #153 albusteve

not your problem is it?

Where have I heard that one before...hmmm...Europe in the 30s?

re: #155 Aceofwhat?

toyota owners disagree//

They really need to change their slogan.

Moving Forward?

re: #139 Walter L. Newton

We talked about the biblical figures and things like that, but I don't remember anyone ever telling me this stuff definitely happened. The whole point was that if you follow good morals, good things will happen to you.

re: #155 Aceofwhat?

toyota owners disagree//

Toyota: You Can't Stop Us From Moving Forward!

re: #145 Aceofwhat?

que? one can homeschool for religious reasons and still nail the sciences...

Sorry, but I don't understand the argument for home school for religious reasons. What reasons would those be?

We homeschooled our 4 kids--from 4:00PM til 7:00AM, and on weekends.

re: #162 The Shadow Do

What reasons would those be?

Not to learn about dinosaurs.

re: #154 The Shadow Do

Mysticism folds in nicely with art and literature. As such it sparks creativity and imagination.

When carried into empirical fields you do have serious trouble however.

I'm an atheist. And I don't think my play writing career has suffered from a lack of creativity and imagination. I can read all sorts of mystical literature and still understand that it is fiction, myth or opinion, not fact.

re: #158 bratwurst

Where have I heard that one before...hmmm...Europe in the 30s?

so lead an anti-Stupid Crusade...I'm not gonna bother

re: #160 political lunatic

We talked about the biblical figures and things like that, but I don't remember anyone ever telling me this stuff definitely happened. The whole point was that if you follow good morals, good things will happen to you.

You believe in G-d?

re: #89 Charles

Yep -- the first stalker just showed up at Metzger's site.

Your response was, well... heh.

re: #125 political lunatic

What do you mean by that? If you grow up in a not-insane church that uses the bible as a guide for morals instead of taking it literally, you usually end up just fine. I did, and I don't even practice organized religion anymore.

Our fine President raised his children to go to a church that was ..uh..not... (very)...insane... and I'm sure he has fine children.

re: #163 Decatur Deb

We homeschooled our 4 kids--from 4:00PM til 7:00AM, and on weekends.

15 hour schooldays will get them prepared to work in the current economic climate.

re: #153 albusteve

not your problem is it?...everybody pitches some thing...hopeandchange!

I prefer to think I'm hopeful for change, and Beck is ignorant. I don't have time to list all the reasons Beck is indeed my problem.

re: #165 Walter L. Newton

I'm an atheist. And I don't think my play writing career has suffered from a lack of creativity and imagination. I can read all sorts of mystical literature and still understand that it is fiction, myth or opinion, not fact.

Of course!

re: #160 political lunatic

We talked about the biblical figures and things like that, but I don't remember anyone ever telling me this stuff definitely happened. The whole point was that if you follow good morals, good things will happen to you.

Really... what was the name of the church/denomination you grew up in? I have a pretty good education in religion and I would be interested in where you got that sort of instruction.

re: #162 The Shadow Do

Sorry, but I don't understand the argument for home school for religious reasons. What reasons would those be?

ummm...same reason one sends their child to, let's say, catholic school?

re: #162 The Shadow Do

Sorry, but I don't understand the argument for home school for religious reasons. What reasons would those be?

to groom religious warriors...zealots for the Cause

Sandra Bullock will be the very last Interview for Barbra Walters special tonight..
Sandra will probably win an Oscar tonight.. She was great in the Blind Side

re: #163 Decatur Deb

We homeschooled our 4 kids--from 4:00PM til 7:00AM, and on weekends.

yup...there you have it

re: #155 Aceofwhat?

toyota owners disagree//

My parents have had ~10 GM cars, and half of them were inexcusably badly made/engineered. (The trucks all ran fine.) The half dozen times I gave Dad a ride to/from the dealer for his Saturn, we should have been so lucky to have failures that result in teh car still moving. just sayin.

re: #133 avanti

Beck just did a show about the evils of public school "indoctrination" He mentioned AGW and "earth worship specifically" and lamented the lack of God in schools. It was a undisguised plea to home school, that to me is the real indoctrination.

I will never understand why folks can not step back and wonder at the things the earth gives up. You don't need to hug a tree or have an advanced degree in organic chemistry to marvel at fucking dirt and the things it consumes and regurgitates. If anything should be worshiped, besides me of course, it is the earth.

re: #171 avanti

I prefer to think I'm hopeful for change, and Beck is ignorant. I don't have time to list all the reasons Beck is indeed my problem.

just list a few then and what you're doing about it

re: #178 keloyd

My parents have had ~10 GM cars, and half of them were inexcusably badly made/engineered. (The trucks all ran fine.) The half dozen times I gave Dad a ride to/from the dealer for his Saturn, we should have been so lucky to have failures that result in teh car still moving. just sayin.

one of my cars is a used Camry, so i kid, but i've already voted with my wallet. i hear you-

The only thing I was deprived of in my religious up bringing was that I didn't try a piece of bacon until I hit college.

Didn't care for it anyway.

Even as an atheist I could never eat pork and ask the people at Subway to please change their gloves if they touched pork before making my sandwich.

Some religious dogma just don't go away...

PZ Meyers takes up the topic of homeschooling, and gets and avalanche of comments:

Jerry Coyne gets email

[...] I'm one of those people who thinks we ought to be consistent and require everyone to attend an accredited school, public or private, and that private schools ought also to be required to meet certain secular standards, such as that their science education ought to address the evidence reasonably. [...]

re: #174 Aceofwhat?

ummm...same reason one sends their child to, let's say, catholic school?

Having no personal knowledge of Catholic schools I cannot judge. I do know that they have an excellent reputation acacemically which would seem to me to be the driver.

Do Catholics send their kids to Catholic schools to learn religion or to learn other stuff? Serious question since I don't know the answer. I do know non-Catholics who pay the tuition and send their kids for the academics however.

re: #167 Walter L. Newton

I believe God judges us on how we try to help build society and help our families and how we treat ourselves. I seriously doubt God has anything to do what happens on Earth, though. We have total free will as a collective society to either live in harmony or start world wars.

re: #184 The Shadow Do

Having no personal knowledge of Catholic schools I cannot judge. I do know that they have an excellent reputation acacemically which would seem to me to be the driver.

Do Catholics send their kids to Catholic schools to learn religion or to learn other stuff? Serious question since I don't know the answer. I do know non-Catholics who pay the tuition and send their kids for the academics however.

my point was that in my experience, the answer is often both.

i was trying to get at why "both" is ok if you're sending your kid to Catholic school but not ok if you don't live around a good private school and decide to pursue the noble cause of "both" at home.

re: #184 The Shadow Do

Having no personal knowledge of Catholic schools I cannot judge. I do know that they have an excellent reputation acacemically which would seem to me to be the driver.

Do Catholics send their kids to Catholic schools to learn religion or to learn other stuff? Serious question since I don't know the answer. I do know non-Catholics who pay the tuition and send their kids for the academics however.

I was sent to Catholic school because of the quality of the education. Went 12 years. The religious instruction aspect was never really part of the factor.

re: #185 political lunatic

I believe God judges us on how we try to help build society and help our families and how we treat ourselves. I seriously doubt God has anything to do what happens on Earth, though. We have total free will as a collective society to either live in harmony or start world wars.

Deist.

re: #185 political lunatic

I believe God judges us on how we try to help build society and help our families and how we treat ourselves. I seriously doubt God has anything to do what happens on Earth, though. We have total free will as a collective society to either live in harmony or start world wars.

then what's his point?, what makes him supreme and why?

re: #184 The Shadow Do

Having no personal knowledge of Catholic schools I cannot judge. I do know that they have an excellent reputation acacemically which would seem to me to be the driver.

Do Catholics send their kids to Catholic schools to learn religion or to learn other stuff? Serious question since I don't know the answer. I do know non-Catholics who pay the tuition and send their kids for the academics however.

Up through the '60s they were a true default "alternative public" for urban Catholics. Then the economics of education and loss of the nuns made them something of a luxury. In an old Catholic school, math, reading, biology and phys ed were religious education. Note high school was always rarer than elementary.

re: #187 Walter L. Newton

I was sent to Catholic school because of the quality of the education. Went 12 years. The religious instruction aspect was never really part of the factor.

The point i'm trying to make to my friend Shadow is, if the religious instruction had been part of the factor, would it have invalidated the rest of your education?

non, certainement pas...

re: #189 albusteve

then what's his point?, what makes him supreme and why?

Large than regular crust.

re: #184 The Shadow Do

Having no personal knowledge of Catholic schools I cannot judge. I do know that they have an excellent reputation acacemically which would seem to me to be the driver.

Do Catholics send their kids to Catholic schools to learn religion or to learn other stuff? Serious question since I don't know the answer. I do know non-Catholics who pay the tuition and send their kids for the academics however.

We send our tweener to Catholic school. I think most of the Catholics there view the school as a social extension of their parish, the religious teaching is King James 101. Pretty meat and potatoes stuff. The benefit for me is mostly the academics, but I hit Bingo this year when my daughter had a run in with her religion teacher and got a first hand taste of what a religious hypocrite is. I don't think I could have lead her to the water of atheism, but her religion teacher has her 95% of the way there.

re: #173 Walter L. Newton

My Presbyterian church as a child was like that. Not in regards to Jesus, but the stories from the Old Testament were regarded as fables.

re: #192 swamprat

Larger than regular crust.

re: #165 Walter L. Newton

I'm an atheist. And I don't think my play writing career has suffered from a lack of creativity and imagination. I can read all sorts of mystical literature and still understand that it is fiction, myth or opinion, not fact.

HA! It sounds like you benefit from mystical practitioners generating high culture to do your job. You indirectly need religion. If everyone was in your graven image, for centuries, half of the metaphors, literary allusions, and general color in our language and art would disappear.

I've got the best of both worlds, by half-assing it as a mainline Protestant. We get all the history, tradition, and mind games to use on the kids, but then all the engineers and scientists in the pews on Sunday are fine with a 13.7 billion year universe and Noah's ark being a story from day 1.

re: #190 Decatur Deb

Up through the '60s they were a true default "alternative public" for urban Catholics. Then the economics of education and loss of the nuns made them something of a luxury. In an old Catholic school, math, reading, biology and phys ed were religious education. Note high school was always rarer than elementary.

Thanks

re: #189 albusteve

then what's his point?, what makes him supreme and why?

Being a Deist is a comfortable position for a lot of people. It still involves mystical thinking, since it does recognize that a g-d created something, got things started. It would probably behoove most politicians to be Deists, because they can still hold some kind of personal faith in a deity, without bringing any sort of doctrine or theological worldview into the picture.

re: #192 swamprat

Large than regular crust.

cheese filled?...and the rest of us are merely thin

re: #163 Decatur Deb

We homeschooled our 4 kids--from 4:00PM til 7:00AM, and on weekends.

I never could figure this thing out... on one hand the public schools often blame their failures on lack of parental involvement. But then when the parents do get really involved that is bad too. Glad I am not rasing children.

re: #199 albusteve

I shall sacrifice a plate of breadsticks (with dipping sauce) in your honor.

re: #201 swamprat

I shall sacrifice a plate of breadsticks (with dipping sauce) in your honor.

I hoist my Anchovies to you!

re: #196 keloyd

HA! It sounds like you benefit from mystical practitioners generating high culture to do your job. You indirectly need religion. If everyone was in your graven image, for centuries, half of the metaphors, literary allusions, and general color in our language and art would disappear.

I've got the best of both worlds, by half-assing it as a mainline Protestant. We get all the history, tradition, and mind games to use on the kids, but then all the engineers and scientists in the pews on Sunday are fine with a 13.7 billion year universe and Noah's ark being a story from day 1.

Well I'm very happy for you. I am not a "radical" atheist, so I don't play the "I got this" versus "you got that" game, I don't even have any need to try to prove to anyone why I don't believe in a g-d. Heck, if you have been on LGF for any sort of time, you know that. I am very respectable of the various religious beliefs here.

But, if anyone wants to discuss religion, I'm better versed in religious text than most people.

You see, I have the best of both worlds too.

re: #200 brookly red

I never could figure this thing out... on one hand the public schools often blame their failures on lack of parental involvement. But then when the parents do get really involved that is bad too. Glad I am not rasing children.

Some of our kids teachers loved us, others less so. (It's a fairly small town.) Alabama is usually around the bottom of the education stats. One teacher asked us to raise her kid because we had "enriched" our kid with a dirty joke about a rabbi, a parrot, and Moshe Dayan.

re: #203 Walter L. Newton

indeed. one of the most even-handed atheists i've ever bumped into. you give them a good name-

re: #200 brookly red

I never could figure this thing out... on one hand the public schools often blame their failures on lack of parental involvement. But then when the parents do get really involved that is bad too. Glad I am not rasing children.

so am I
(jus kidding)

re: #205 Aceofwhat?

indeed. one of the most even-handed atheists i've ever bumped into. you give them a good name-

I hate it when parts of my Mr. Crankypants fall off.

re: #184 The Shadow Do

Having no personal knowledge of Catholic schools I cannot judge. I do know that they have an excellent reputation acacemically which would seem to me to be the driver.

Do Catholics send their kids to Catholic schools to learn religion or to learn other stuff? Serious question since I don't know the answer. I do know non-Catholics who pay the tuition and send their kids for the academics however.

Catholics send their kids to Catholic school because the church looks at the education of children as a serious ministry, and provides an excellent education.

In religion class, religion is taught
In science class, science, and nothing but science, is taught.

In fact, my daughter goes to a Catholic school, and has since kindergarten.
Her HS science teacher is scientist retired from NASA, now teaching HS science. He is very knowledgeable AND a great teacher too. So great, in fact, that daughter is considering science as her college major.

re: #193 Jeff In Ohio

We send our tweener to Catholic school. I think most of the Catholics there view the school as a social extension of their parish, the religious teaching is King James 101. Pretty meat and potatoes stuff. The benefit for me is mostly the academics, but I hit Bingo this year when my daughter had a run in with her religion teacher and got a first hand taste of what a religious hypocrite is. I don't think I could have lead her to the water of atheism, but her religion teacher has her 95% of the way there.

Kind of sad really.

re: #202 albusteve

I hoist my Anchovies to you!

I feel that it is my calling to report for the pizza war. No quarter for the deep dish.

re: #200 brookly red

I never could figure this thing out... on one hand the public schools often blame their failures on lack of parental involvement. But then when the parents do get really involved that is bad too. Glad I am not rasing children.

It is easy to be a parent. Everything you do is wrong. Daughter told me her teacher was an idiot...Isaid play the game and get good grades...then came the day she got an "e" for overdoing an assignment report much larger and detailed than requested...I told she could bring home 10 "e" s like that and I would have no problem.

re: #211 swamprat

Right answer.

re: #210 brookly red

I feel that it is my calling to report for the pizza war. No quarter for the deep dish.

yeah...i love a good Chicago pie...but it's not pizza.

re: #162 The Shadow Do

Sorry, but I don't understand the argument for home school for religious reasons. What reasons would those be?

To counteract what they see as the surrounding culture's attempt to impose its lack of morals on their children.

re: #198 Walter L. Newton

Being a Deist is a comfortable position for a lot of people. It still involves mystical thinking, since it does recognize that a g-d created something, got things started. It would probably behoove most politicians to be Deists, because they can still hold some kind of personal faith in a deity, without bringing any sort of doctrine or theological worldview into the picture.

Comfortable for sure, but wrong? I think not.

re: #208 reine.de.tout

Catholics send their kids to Catholic school because the church looks at the education of children as a serious ministry, and provides an excellent education.

In religion class, religion is taught
In science class, science, and nothing but science, is taught.

In fact, my daughter goes to a Catholic school, and has since kindergarten.
Her HS science teacher is scientist retired from NASA, now teaching HS science. He is very knowledgeable AND a great teacher too. So great, in fact, that daughter is considering science as her college major.

True dat. My daughters science teacher is amazing.

re: #203 Walter L. Newton

That is true, Walter. You are nothing if not respectful.

re: #204 Decatur Deb

Some of our kids teachers loved us, others less so. (It's a fairly small town.) Alabama is usually around the bottom of the education stats. One teacher asked us to raise her kid because we had "enriched" our kid with a dirty joke about a rabbi, a parrot, and Moshe Dayan.

If the kids know who Moshe Dayan is you are not at the bottom... most kids in NYC don't know who Grant was.

re: #198 Walter L. Newton

Bingo. That fits me pretty well because it lets me believe what i want to believe. I just couldn't find the word for it before. Thank you. :)

re: #182 Spockista

The only thing I was deprived of in my religious up bringing was that I didn't try a piece of bacon until I hit college.

Didn't care for it anyway.

Even as an atheist I could never eat pork and ask the people at Subway to please change their gloves if they touched pork before making my sandwich.

Some religious dogma just don't go away...

Whereas for me, bacon is one of the top two reasons to not keep kosher. (The other being Manischewitz. That stuff is vile.)

re: #208 reine.de.tout

Catholics send their kids to Catholic school because the church looks at the education of children as a serious ministry, and provides an excellent education.

In religion class, religion is taught
In science class, science, and nothing but science, is taught.

In fact, my daughter goes to a Catholic school, and has since kindergarten.
Her HS science teacher is scientist retired from NASA, now teaching HS science. He is very knowledgeable AND a great teacher too. So great, in fact, that daughter is considering science as her college major.

Then you have a wonderful resource. You are very lucky, Reine.

re: #215 The Shadow Do

Comfortable for sure, but wrong? I think not.

I could stomach a Deist politician before any of the conservative politicians that play any of the religious cards.

re: #218 brookly red

If the kids know who Moshe Dayan is you are not at the bottom... most kids in NYC don't know who Grant was.

Nah. The kid ID'd Moshe D for an academic decathlon. The teach was blown away. He refused to tell her the joke, and I can't here because it's pantomime.

re: #213 Aceofwhat?

yeah...i love a good Chicago pie...but it's not pizza.

there is no pizza...it's a lie

re: #214 The Sanity Inspector

To counteract what they see as the surrounding culture's attempt to impose its lack of morals on their children.

Strikes me as paranoid.

re: #209 The Shadow Do

Kind of sad really.

More frustrating then sad. Kids aren't stupid, they want to see the good in people and they see right through that shit.

On the bright side, when she turns 16, she gets to ride her unicorn to school.

re: #220 sagehen

Whereas for me, bacon is one of the top two reasons to not keep kosher. (The other being Manischewitz. That stuff is vile.)

Maneschewitz "wine" is gaggingly nasty, but there is an excellent kosher wine industry so nobody drinks that stuff except for the winos who slug MD 2020 out of paper bags.

I can't say that I miss bacon. Lobster, on the other hand...

re: #222 Walter L. Newton

I could stomach a Deist politician before any of the conservative politicians that play any of the religious cards.

Amen.

Or some such

re: #220 sagehen

Whereas for me, bacon is one of the top two reasons to not keep kosher. (The other being Manischewitz. That stuff is vile.)

heh. with apologies to Jewish friends, (bacon + X) = teh awesome.

X = everything

(now that's science)

re: #225 The Shadow Do

Strikes me as paranoid.

The Catholic ideal is (was) "In the world, but not of it".

re: #220 sagehen

I used to love dipping my challah in Manischewitz.

Eating that with a bowl of Matzo ball soup reminds me of Shabbos of long past.

Pork is still a vile meat for me, I can't even pet the pigs, and I love animals, but touching a pig has that dogma going.

re: #223 Decatur Deb

Nah. The kid ID'd Moshe D for an academic decathlon. The teach was blown away. He refused to tell her the joke, and I can't here because it's pantomime.

You can tell me.

My son lives in Alabama. He was born a Yankee, but "converted" when he married a Birmingham girl. And our granddaughter will be raised in Huntsville.

re: #231 Spockista

I used to love dipping my challah in Manischewitz.

Eating that with a bowl of Matzo ball soup reminds me of Shabbos of long past.

Pork is still a vile meat for me, I can't even pet the pigs, and I love animals, but touching a pig has that dogma going.

do you enjoy the pig races at the fair?...I love the pig races

re: #230 Decatur Deb

The Catholic ideal is (was) "In the world, but not of it".

Elaborate?

re: #220 sagehen

I don't dig on swine... and there are now so many kosher (and kosher for passover) wines that it doesn't and shouldn't deter from being kosher.

Kosher wines - particularly from Israel are a great way to support Israel these days too...

re: #12 reine.de.tout

Very interesting interview. I watched the entire 25 minutes that was posted there. I don't usually watch these sorts of interview things for more than about 10 minutes . . .

Agreed. Very interesting interview. Am looking forward to part next

re: #231 Spockista

I used to love dipping my challah in Manischewitz.

Eating that with a bowl of Matzo ball soup reminds me of Shabbos of long past.

Pork is still a vile meat for me, I can't even pet the pigs, and I love animals, but touching a pig has that dogma going.

You can touch a pig, you just can't eat one. Touching one will not give you the treif cooties.

re: #227 Alouette

Maneschewitz "wine" is gaggingly nasty, but there is an excellent kosher wine industry so nobody drinks that stuff except for the winos who slug MD 2020 out of paper bags.

I can't say that I miss bacon. Lobster, on the other hand...

MD 20/20 i made by Mogen David who makes the other insanely sweet kosher wine.

re: #237 Alouette

You can touch a pig, you just can't eat one. Touching one will not give you the treif cooties.

pigs need affection too

re: #235 lawhawk

I don't dig on swine... and there are now so many kosher (and kosher for passover) wines that it doesn't and shouldn't deter from being kosher.

Kosher wines - particularly from Israel are a great way to support Israel these days too...

Kosher wine section at the Zionist Mall.

re: #232 Alouette

You can tell me.

My son lives in Alabama. He was born a Yankee, but "converted" when he married a Birmingham girl. And our granddaughter will be raised in Huntsville.

Your family might know the joke--the punchline is obscene gesturing. Ask around about the parrot that insults the general in front of the rabbi.

re: #237 Alouette

I know I can touch a pig, but growing up the adults made such a stick about not touching them, they are unclean blah blah blah...it just sort of stuck...

re: #233 albusteve

do you enjoy the pig races at the fair?...I love the pig races

Oh man, some years back there was a news story about some business that was running pig races in Houston every Friday. Yes, this business was located next to a mosque.

I haven't heard about it since.
/random stupid stuff you don't easily forget

re: #221 The Shadow Do

Then you have a wonderful resource. You are very lucky, Reine.

Yes, indeed!
This particular teacher is also fluent in several languages, and during summers, he and his wife work for EF tours, which provides educational tours.

She went last summer with them on a tour that included Prague, Berlin, the Alps and Paris.

This year's trip is to the UK - England, Scotland, Wales - for almost 3 weeks.

We are very fortunate to have met up with this particular teacher.

re: #240 Alouette

Kosher wine section at the Zionist Mall.

This is a compliment. You are as good at shameless self promotion as I am... hat tip!

re: #242 Spockista

I know I can touch a pig, but growing up the adults made such a stick about not touching them, they are unclean blah blah blah...it just sort of stuck...

folding laundry, hanging out at LGF, and "Pig Bomb" is on the Discovery Channel in the background. heh.

re: #185 political lunatic

I believe God judges us on how we try to help build society and help our families and how we treat ourselves.

There are good Samaritans in Heaven who may agree with that point. No one remembers how hated they were back in the day. Everything they believed was wrong. The original audience of that story must have said "the good WHO?", "the WHAT Samaritans?" Imagine getting shown up by a Samaritan. bleh.

re: #203 Walter L. Newton !!?! What's the point of all that time I spent in Sunday school and all that love-thy-neighbor talk if I can't use it as a weapon to start fights with anyone who is slightly different from me!?
/

re: #243 The Shadow Do

Oh man, some years back there was a news story about some business that was running pig races in Houston every Friday. Yes, this business was located next to a mosque.

I haven't heard about it since.
/random stupid stuff you don't easily forget

sure, I remember that and the Muslims were furious...the story just sort of faded away...I think the land was for a mosque yet to be built to

re: #246 Aceofwhat?

pig bomb? dare I ask? sounds like a bad 80's punk band...

re: #234 The Shadow Do

Elaborate?

What happens on earth, and in society, is short-term and important only in regards to the infinity of life after death. Following that sets up a mild "otherness". Hence the preference for religiously-imbued education. History was especially important. For the difference, ask an old Catholic about Elizabeth I.

re: #245 Walter L. Newton

This is a compliment. You are as good at shameless self promotion as I am... hat tip!

I try not to be a shameless pimp, but I take advantage of the opportunity as it presents itself. :)

re: #246 Aceofwhat?

Cooking filets with the grill pan, on LGF, Baba Wawa in the background.

re: #251 Alouette

I try not to be a shameless pimp, but I take advantage of the opportunity as it presents itself. :)

Well, ok... I'm a shameless pimp.

re: #244 reine.de.tout

Yes, indeed!
This particular teacher is also fluent in several languages, and during summers, he and his wife work for EF tours, which provides educational tours.

She went last summer with them on a tour that included Prague, Berlin, the Alps and Paris.

This year's trip is to the UK - England, Scotland, Wales - for almost 3 weeks.

We are very fortunate to have met up with this particular teacher.

Wow. And all we got as a kid was a trip to the zoo...

re: #242 Spockista

There are worse things. You've come this far, stick with what works for you. I love bacon, but pigs wade in their own poo. (Yes I know they will do differently if they have enough room, but in the real world I try to avoid them. I have assisted in butchering a few, but that is what soap is for.)

re: #249 Spockista

pig bomb? dare I ask? sounds like a bad 80's punk band...

wild pig population explosion in the States and their potential relationship with old-school russian boars.

Looks like it started in Georgia (shocka) - released as game animals...except the suckers breed like rabbits.

ergo population bomb.

re: #254 The Shadow Do

Wow. And all we got as a kid was a trip to the zoo...

yeah, that's all I got too.
pfft.
My parents were poorer than I am
Heck, everybody's parents were poorer - plus they didn't have these great companies offering these great tours at ridiculously affordable prices.

re: #249 Spockista

pig bomb? dare I ask? sounds like a bad 80's punk band...

I miss CBGB...

re: #254 The Shadow Do

Wow. And all we got as a kid was a trip to the zoo...

Trivia... name the source "We're going to the zoo today, and then we're going to Hong Kong and we're going to lot's of places"

?