Apologia. BJU text. Alpha Omega. God's Design.

I buy McGraw-Hill.

And stuff. Lots of stuff.* Boys spent the morning programming a robot and putting together a battery operated wooden car.

*You can't learn to be a mad scientist from a book!

we desperately need to follow the course set by Germany and make homeschooling illegal, or highly regulated

re: #2 SpaceJesus

we desperately need to follow the course set by Germany and make homeschooling illegal, or highly regulated

Dude, your unsubstantiated prejudices are showing again.

Just so long as they teach their kids that voting is a temptation from Satan that they should avoid at all costs, I'm okay with their teaching creationism as science.

re: #3 EmmmieG

Dude, your unsubstantiated prejudices are showing again.

oh, my bad, i thought my wanting for an educated and well rounded society was showing again

A friend of mine was "unschooled" which is definitely not much better.

Who needs decades of scientific research and data gathered thru observation and testing from countless people across the globe when we have millenia old parables from one region we can study?

Wish I had time to bat this particular ball of yarn around with you guys but this close to mid terms college can be a harsh mistress and a guy has to stop slacking sooner or later...

re: #2 SpaceJesus

we desperately need to follow the course set by Germany and make homeschooling illegal, or highly regulated

It should certainly be highly regulated.

re: #2 SpaceJesus

It already is regulated.

There are also public schools, not to mention private schools, where the teachers let their anti-Darwinist views strongly influence what they teach. Not to mention the many other ways that anti-science sentiment has invaded the classroom. I think that is a larger immediate priority than regulation of homeschooling.

If the parents are trying to fill their kid's heads with nonsense, you can't really stop them from doing it. It's a rather tricky situation, and I don't think the immediate answer is making the behavior illegal.

I think it's important to take about the deficits of homeschooling and what can be done about it, but an immediate leap to criminalizing it is rash.

these people are also guilty of not just pushing pseudo science on these poor kids, they're also largely guilty of pushing arch-conservative historical revisionism on them as well.

re: #1 EmmmieG

Apologia. BJU text. Alpha Omega. God's Design.

I buy McGraw-Hill.

And stuff. Lots of stuff.* Boys spent the morning programming a robot and putting together a battery operated wooden car.

*You can't learn to be a mad scientist from a book!

Yeah, what she said.
We mostly used Oak Meadow.
and stuff.
and books about potato cannons.

re: #10 Obdicut

it is not regulated to the degree it needs to be, not at all

re: #10 Obdicut

It already is regulated.

There are also public schools, not to mention private schools, where the teachers let their anti-Darwinist views strongly influence what they teach. Not to mention the many other ways that anti-science sentiment has invaded the classroom. I think that is a larger immediate priority than regulation of homeschooling.

If the parents are trying to fill their kid's heads with nonsense, you can't really stop them from doing it. It's a rather tricky situation, and I don't think the immediate answer is making the behavior illegal.

I think it's important to take about the deficits of homeschooling and what can be done about it, but an immediate leap to criminalizing it is rash.

Exactly. Take Texas for example. If they succeed in pushing a creationst agenda into the public schools in Texas, would you decide to criminalize someone who decides to homeschool their children and teach evolution?

Its a tricky question, but the end result is a growing population of scientific illiterates.

re: #10 Obdicut

Er, in case that wasn't clear: Yes, homeschooling should be highly regulated. Children are not possessions or pets, and the education of children matters to other citizens, highly.

I believe it already is regulated, but that the problem is related to the anti-science atmosphere in the US in general, it is not particular to homeschooling.

We have a terrible, terrible problem with being hostile to science in the US. It is insidiously sapping our nation, in terms of economy, prestige, and, of course, scientific output.

re: #13 SpaceJesus

it is not regulated to the degree it needs to be, not at all

Yep. Let's face it, it wouldn't be such a big thing with those types if it was.

re: #9 Jimmah

It should certainly be highly regulated.

Watch the regulations. There are only two ways to legally homeschool in Alabama: Under the auspices of a church, or through hired private tutor.

Fairly trustworthy source:

[Link: homeschool-regulations.suite101.com...]

re: #12 webevintage

Yeah, what she said.
We mostly used Oak Meadow.
and stuff.
and books about potato cannons.

Potato cannons! Cool. Have you tried baking powder and vinegar in a bottle with a stopper? (It has to be able to pop out, or it breaks.)

re: #13 SpaceJesus

My point is that the problem is not unique in any way to homeschooled children, but is a huge problem across society. The rejection of AGW by so many should show that.

We've been failing in education for a long time. Letting homeschoolers use textbooks with clearly false information is just a facet of that, and I don't think you'll substantially address the problem by criminalizing it.

That's all.

re: #2 SpaceJesus

we desperately need to follow the course set by Germany and make homeschooling illegal, or highly regulated

sigh.
Do you know that in Arkansas there are more regulations regarding home school then there are for private schools.
I do because I was involved with a group of folks who thought about opening a "free school". The regulations were about fire escapes and number of bathrooms.

(though it was about 10 years ago so the laws might have changed)

re: #18 EmmmieG

Potato cannons! Cool. Have you tried baking powder and vinegar in a bottle with a stopper? (It has to be able to pop out, or it breaks.)

US Army experienced at least one fatality from a potato gun. (Can't document that without bumping into a privacy reg.)

re: #5 SpaceJesus

oh, my bad, i thought my wanting for an educated and well rounded society was showing again

nope. #4 is what you try and fail to achieve.

fortunately, my forgiveness > your capacity to offend.

(actually, the entire statement is my forgiveness > SpaceJesus' offensiveness > my humility. full disclosure..:)

re: #15 Obdicut

The regulations vary widely from state to state. There has to be more regulation, in part because 'homeschooling' has also been used as an excuse when a child vanishes from the public school system-- not because they're being homeschooled at all, but because the parents are abusing the child.

That's not the primary or only reason why homeschooling needs more regulation in many places, but it is another concern.

re: #10 Obdicut

It already is regulated.

There are also public schools, not to mention private schools, where the teachers let their anti-Darwinist views strongly influence what they teach. Not to mention the many other ways that anti-science sentiment has invaded the classroom. I think that is a larger immediate priority than regulation of homeschooling.

If the parents are trying to fill their kid's heads with nonsense, you can't really stop them from doing it. It's a rather tricky situation, and I don't think the immediate answer is making the behavior illegal.

I think it's important to take about the deficits of homeschooling and what can be done about it, but an immediate leap to criminalizing it is rash.

Absolutely sane and rational viewpoint.

I went to a Catholic elementary school, and my daughter has been in Catholic school all her life.

There is no question in my mind that the science of evolution (or any other science) absolutely does not is quite compatible with religious belief (or vice versa) - unless of course a person's particular religious belief is completely at odds with the reality of our world and how it works.

I feel for these kids who aren't getting the chance to learn real history or science, but attempting to regulate curriculum is unlikely to get any real traction. Some people are simply bound and determined to teach their kids nonsense.

Of course this is terrible.

I do not have a good philosophical way through the minefield of trying to define child abuse as willfully brainwashing your kids to be hateful, ignorant and stupid, but surely as a matter of practical common sense, you can not teach your kids harmful falsehoods, have them act on them and then consider it a good thing.

How many cases have there been of some child dying because the parents refused a very well established and simple medical procedure on religious grounds? I am not talking about the cases where the treatment is new or untested or carries great risks of its own. I mean when you refuse to give the kid a shot that will cure the infection that is killing him.

Now if you want to get religious on that from the root tradition that these people claim to come from, Jewish law calls that murder. Let me repeat, it is not called bad, or disapproved of, or frowned upon. It is called murder.

As to science in general. OK lets put it like this. If we have a dark ages nation that thinks that science is a political or dogmatic popularity contest, our nation will be eaten by those nations who have superior science, industry,technology and capacity to make war.

re: #18 EmmmieG

Potato cannons! Cool. Have you tried baking powder and vinegar in a bottle with a stopper? (It has to be able to pop out, or it breaks.)

He's 18 now, but thing that blew up were always a hit.

My ultra-conservative cousins in Michigan homeschooled their two kids until their junior year in high school.

They are not, however, anti-science or any kind of religious nuts.

When the older child, Karl, went to economics class the first day in "real school", the teacher pulled out a twenty-dollar bill and asked, "What is this worth?"

Kids were going "ooh, ooh, me, I know!" and answering with things like "twenty dollars" or "two CDs" or (the "wittier" ones) "a date with your mother" (yes, kids say that to teachers these days).

Meanwhile Karl was busy drawing something in his notebook.

"Anyone else?" asks Teach.

Karl holds up his curlicued drawing with a flourish. "How much is this worth to you?"

Teach: "What do you mean?"

"I mean, how many twenties will you give me for this? They're all just pieces of paper. How much is this one worth to you?"

Teacher gulps, says, "You haven't been here long, have you?"

Karl: "No, I just got here. I was home-schooled."

The teacher told him to go to the library and read whatever he liked while she spent the next to weeks teaching the other cretins basic economics.

Just sayin', there's home-schooling and then there's home-schooling. Depends on the parents.

re: #18 EmmmieG

Potato cannons! Cool. Have you tried baking powder and vinegar in a bottle with a stopper? (It has to be able to pop out, or it breaks.)

:D

Are you up to running with the big dogs?

re: #2 SpaceJesus

I'll agree when or if you can show me how a good curriculum taught at home presents a problem. Until then, you are over reacting.

I wouldn't interfere with homescooling. If parents want to raise their kids as ignoramuses, that's their business. The flip side, of course, is to keep these fools from having any influence over the public schools. Legislatures too. But there's the problem.

re: #11 SpaceJesus

They can do that after their kids come home from public school. Then what?

EmmmieG, the book is called Backyard Ballistics:

[Link: astore.amazon.com...]

I promised myself that the next homeschooling thread I would put out a little information to help people understand homeschooling.

a. There are no national laws about what you teach your kids when you homeschool, and only a few states have laws about curriculum. Many states insist on testing.

b. Few states give you money. Trust me.

c. There are many different philosophies about homeschooling. There's school-at-home, both religious and secular. There's online schooling, which usually involves an institution. There's unschooling, which was mentioned, which is the polar opposite of school-at-home. There's unit studies, which I find good for science and history. There's Charlotte Mason's Well Trained Mind. There's the Robinson method, which is not unschooling. This is not a comprehensive list, just giving you an idea of what is out there. Homeschooling is not necessarily doing what they do at school.

(Personally, I'm eclectic, with an emphasis on activities.)

re: #30 Rightwingconspirator

I'll agree when or if you can show me how a good curriculum taught at home presents a problem. Until then, you are over reacting.

even a good curriculum needs a good teacher, and further the at-home learning denies kids the social interaction they need to be face society in the future.

re: #33 webevintage

EmmmieG, the book is called Backyard Ballistics:

[Link: astore.amazon.com...]

Great. There was one other thing I needed at amazon, and now I can't remember what it is.

Arghh.

People talking like, "parents shouldn't be allowed to home-school their kids" gives fuel to the fires of the Becks of the world. And rightly so. State encroachment on parenting is scary shit.

re: #34 EmmmieG

I promised myself that the next homeschooling thread I would put out a little information to help people understand homeschooling.

a. There are no national laws about what you teach your kids when you homeschool, and only a few states have laws about curriculum. Many states insist on testing.

b. Few states give you money. Trust me.

c. There are many different philosophies about homeschooling. There's school-at-home, both religious and secular. There's online schooling, which usually involves an institution. There's unschooling, which was mentioned, which is the polar opposite of school-at-home. There's unit studies, which I find good for science and history. There's Charlotte Mason's Well Trained Mind. There's the Robinson method, which is not unschooling. This is not a comprehensive list, just giving you an idea of what is out there. Homeschooling is not necessarily doing what they do at school.

(Personally, I'm eclectic, with an emphasis on activities.)

There is also homeschooling programs for students with special needs, and the curriculum has nothing to do with any religious instruction.

re: #35 SpaceJesus

The home schooling I know of uses good teachers. Not unionized though, another big voice against this for utterly craven reasons.

re: #35 SpaceJesus

even a good curriculum needs a good teacher, and further the at-home learning denies kids the social interaction they need to be face society in the future.

what is a good teacher?

re: #38 Walter L. Newton

There is also homeschooling programs for students with special needs, and the curriculum has nothing to do with any religious instruction.

Absolutely. I think they should study kids (boys, really) who were pulled out of school when the alternative was medication for ADHD, and see how they do.

re: #37 cliffster

People talking like, "parents shouldn't be allowed to home-school their kids" gives fuel to the fires of the Becks of the world. And rightly so. State encroachment on parenting is scary shit.

In Germany, you're not allowed to home-school your kids. Period. Punkt. Aus.

That's just wrong.

re: #24 reine.de.tout

Absolutely sane and rational viewpoint.

I went to a Catholic elementary school, and my daughter has been in Catholic school all her life.

There is no question in my mind that the science of evolution (or any other science) absolutely does not is quite compatible with religious belief (or vice versa) - unless of course a person's particular religious belief is completely at odds with the reality of our world and how it works.

OK, I screwed that up royally.

re: #35 SpaceJesus

You assume they do not get out for sports or activities with friends.

3% of kids are homeschooled, 3%

Meanwhile:

In fact, 20 percent of graduating high school seniors are mildly illiterate upon receiving their diplomas, according to the National Right to Read Foundation.

To ignore science while home schooling is stupid, to ignore literacy while being schooled by the state is...what exactly?

re: #42 Cato the Elder

In Germany, you're not allowed to home-school your kids. Period. Punkt. Aus.

That's just wrong.

That has do do with keeping kids home and indoctrinating them.

The war's legacy runs deep.

re: #35 SpaceJesus

even a good curriculum needs a good teacher, and further the at-home learning denies kids the social interaction they need to be face society in the future.

Actually, not necessarily.
Here, there are home-schooling groups and the kids get together periodically to study or take a field trip or whatever. There are activities planned to ensure interaction with other kids.

re: #43 reine.de.tout

OK, I screwed that up royally.

S' ok. I ran it through my Vatican decoder ring.

re: #42 Cato the Elder

In Germany, you're not allowed to home-school your kids. Period. Punkt. Aus.

That's just wrong.

I'm confused. Does the law state that you can't home-school, or that all kids must attend public school?

re: #46 researchok
re: #42 Cato the Elder

Does that prevent indoctrination by the parents or utterly insure it by the state?

re: #41 EmmmieG

Absolutely. I think they should study kids (boys, really) who were pulled out of school when the alternative was medication for ADHD, and see how they do.

I'm closely associated with a family who had a situation like that, and there was nothing available for the sort of special needs that this family had.

The family rallied politically which lead to a homeschooling program dealing with these certain special needs.

I know at least one ultra-lib greener who is homeschooling her kid to be knocked on the head and robbed the first time he goes to the big city by himself. He's being taught to be Bodhisattva in a world of jackal-headed monsters.

It all comes down to the parents.

re: #45 Stonemason

3% of kids are homeschooled, 3%

Meanwhile:

In fact, 20 percent of graduating high school seniors are mildly illiterate upon receiving their diplomas, according to the National Right to Read Foundation.

To ignore science while home schooling is stupid, to ignore literacy while being schooled by the state is...what exactly?

There are institutional failures and there are deliberate attempts at not educating kids. Your point is well taken but in the end, the comparison is apples and oranges.

re: #49 Slumbering Behemoth

I'm confused. Does the law state that you can't home-school, or that all kids must attend public school?

Is there a difference?

re: #43 reine.de.tout

OK, I screwed that up royally.

Reason #1 not to trust the cookbook ?

/ < -- sarc

Hi there ... :D

re: #45 Stonemason

Oregon is going to start giving the 10th grade reading test in the 11th grade to try and improve the scores.

My freshman just passed it with an "exceeds grade".

re: #48 Decatur Deb

S' ok. I ran it through my Vatican decoder ring.

I figured you must have.
I mean, when I read something I've written and it doesn't make sense even to me, there is something seriously wrong.

re: #55 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Reason #1 not to trust the cookbook ?

/ < -- sarc

Hi there ... :D

Hey there stranger!

re: #34 EmmmieG

I promised myself that the next homeschooling thread I would put out a little information to help people understand homeschooling.

a. There are no national laws about what you teach your kids when you homeschool, and only a few states have laws about curriculum. Many states insist on testing.

b. Few states give you money. Trust me.

c. There are many different philosophies about homeschooling. There's school-at-home, both religious and secular. There's online schooling, which usually involves an institution. There's unschooling, which was mentioned, which is the polar opposite of school-at-home. There's unit studies, which I find good for science and history. There's Charlotte Mason's Well Trained Mind. There's the Robinson method, which is not unschooling. This is not a comprehensive list, just giving you an idea of what is out there. Homeschooling is not necessarily doing what they do at school.

(Personally, I'm eclectic, with an emphasis on activities.)

This is a good illustration why "regulating" isn't a particular good approach. There are many different ways to get kids to absorb the same kind of information. If the regulator was someone from the public education bureaucracy it's unlikely that home schooling mandates would stop at just curriculum requirements.

re: #43 reine.de.tout

OK, I screwed that up royally.

you are the Reine!

Glenn Beck...Tonight you have truly gone over the top...
I can't believe it.. You have gone off the rails..

re: #56 EmmmieG

Oregon is going to start giving the 10th grade reading test in the 11th grade to try and improve the scores.

My freshman just passed it with an "exceeds grade".

Again: Marry me!

[if you're a single mom]

Lots of crazies now showing up at Richard Metzger's site:

[Link: www.dangerousminds.net...]

I'm not in favor of heavy regulation of home-schooling. What people want to teach their children is their own business, and if they want their kids to go to college and succeed in life then they will teach them the subjects that will allow them to do that.

It's hard for me to reconcile that with my agreement with Charles that teaching lies to children is a mild form of abuse.

re: #2 SpaceJesus

we desperately need to follow the course set by Germany and make homeschooling illegal, or highly regulated

That would sure preserve the kids from any wrong-headed indoctrination, that would.

//

re: #45 Stonemason

3% of kids are homeschooled, 3%

Meanwhile:

In fact, 20 percent of graduating high school seniors are mildly illiterate upon receiving their diplomas, according to the National Right to Read Foundation.

To ignore science while home schooling is stupid, to ignore literacy while being schooled by the state is...what exactly?

the National Center for Education Statistics says only 36 percent of homeschooled students are kept home for religious reasons.

re: #50 Rightwingconspirator

re: #42 Cato the Elder

Does that prevent indoctrination by the parents or utterly insure it by the state?

No, of course not.

But the conversation isn't esoteric. Germany when you live through that, there are residual effects.

There's a reason there are anti Nazi laws that are taken very seriously.

re: #54 Cato the Elder

Is there a difference?

I think so. What I mean is, you can still teach your children at home while they are attending public schools.

re: #58 reine.de.tout

Hey there stranger!

Day off from a very busy work schedule (and playing hooky from the chores)

re: #62 Cato the Elder

Again: Marry me!

[if you're a single mom]

Sorry. My husband is busy egging them on in their techno-geekness.

(If we succeed, our kids will be the ones apologizing for setting your lawn on fire with their latest attempt at rocketry.)

re: #52 Cato the Elder

I know at least one ultra-lib greener who is homeschooling her kid to be knocked on the head and robbed the first time he goes to the big city by himself. He's being taught to be Bodhisattva in a world of jackal-headed monsters.

It all comes down to the parents.

Unfortunately, some life lessons can't be taught, just learned thru painful experience. In this case, its "My parents are wrong."

Homeschooling needs to be preserved with as few hoops to jump though because institutional education is just not for everyone.
And if for no other reason then that I have worked in my state to protect our fairly easy homeschooling laws.

I want there to be a safe place for kids who can't fit in or are horribly bullied or need to break with a bad crowd or are LD but under served/being taught in the wrong way or are not ready for large groups or find all those people distracting or are in danger or a girl with a stalker boyfriend or dad works strange hours and if our son went to school when he was 6 (and he was NOT developmentally ready then) he would have never seen his dad or...

I do not hate our public schools, I think they are awesome for so many kids, but there is a group of kids and teens in each school who's lives would be so much better if institutional schooling was not part of their lives.

There are so many reason to homeschool besides religious reasons.

re: #53 researchok

There are institutional failures and there are deliberate attempts at not educating kids. Your point is well taken but in the end, the comparison is apples and oranges.

Maybe not. Let's assume that half of the homeschooled are the anti-science type, they can still read, that means that they can find LGF and learn later in life. The others...they have no chance, and at least one here wants to make sure that those folk don't even get the chance to be home schooled, becuas a very small minority of kids are poorly taught at home.

Really, that is maybe tangerines to oranges, but closer than apples.

re: #53 researchok

There are institutional failures and there are deliberate attempts at not educating kids. Your point is well taken but in the end, the comparison is apples and oranges.

i believe the point is that these few oranges over here are clearly rotten...hey, wait...why is that dump truck of stinky apples backing up on my lawn...

re: #68 Slumbering Behemoth

Oh. Got it. No, you can teach your kids what you like at home. But Germany being Germany, they may come in for a world of hurt if it doesn't make the grade (pun intended).

re: #70 EmmmieG

Sorry. My husband is busy egging them on in their techno-geekness.

(If we succeed, our kids will be the ones apologizing for setting your lawn on fire with their latest attempt at rocketry.)

Like the Tralfamadorians blowing up the universe with a fuel test?

The argument of the role of government trumps the argument of of whether we're pissed off by creationism, imho. As repellent as that Apologia Publishing company looks, my libertarian principals are telling me the government should mind its own business, though we're approaching the line. Kids in bad public schools are swindled at least as badly as those raised by loving parents who indulge in these myths.

In other news, who gave them permission to use a Catholic word? The only place I've ever heard "apologetics" (meaning explanation, not to be sorry) is with the Catholics. It's their word. It's their dead language. These clowns are putting on airs whipping out a venerable word like that.

re: #54 Cato the Elder

Is there a difference?

A ban on home schooling still leaves open the possibility of private schooling, while a requirement to attend public schools shuts both doors.

re: #69 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Day off from a very busy work schedule (and playing hooky from the chores)

Hi You! Kind regards!

re: #77 keloyd

I so wish I had multiple upding powers.

re: #73 Stonemason

Let's assume that half of the homeschooled are the anti-science type...

You don't have to assume anything. The actual facts are much worse than you assume:

Federal statistics from 2007 show 83 percent of home-schooling parents want to give their children “religious or moral instruction.”

"Homeschooling in the United States: 2003"[13] found that 78 percent utilized "a public library"; 77 percent used "a homeschooling catalog, publisher, or individual specialist"; 68 percent used "retail bookstore or other store"; 60 percent used "an education publisher that was not affiliated with homeschooling." "Approximately half" used curriculum or books from "a homeschooling organization", 37 percent from a "church, synagogue or other religious institution" and 23 percent from "their local public school or district." 41 percent in 2003 utilized some sort of distance learning, approximately 20 percent by "television, video or radio"; 19 percent via "Internet, e-mail, or the World Wide Web"; and 15 percent taking a "correspondence course by mail designed specifically for homeschoolers."

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

re: #72 webevintage

Homeschooling needs to be preserved with as few hoops to jump though because institutional education is just not for everyone.
And if for no other reason then that I have worked in my state to protect our fairly easy homeschooling laws.

I want there to be a safe place for kids who can't fit in or are horribly bullied or need to break with a bad crowd or are LD but under served/being taught in the wrong way or are not ready for large groups or find all those people distracting or are in danger or a girl with a stalker boyfriend or dad works strange hours and if our son went to school when he was 6 (and he was NOT developmentally ready then) he would have never seen his dad or...

I do not hate our public schools, I think they are awesome for so many kids, but there is a group of kids and teens in each school who's lives would be so much better if institutional schooling was not part of their lives.

There are so many reason to homeschool besides religious reasons.

Much of the issue goes away if the kids are tested rigorously against their local public school age-mates.

re: #63 Charles

Lots of crazies now showing up at Richard Metzger's site:

[Link: www.dangerousminds.net...]

Comment moderation is a good thing. You'd think they would take the opportunity to engage you in a rational argument.

Then again, I suppose they can't.

re: #76 Cato the Elder

Like the Tralfamadorians blowing up the universe with a fuel test?

*Sigh* I could see that.

re: #4 darthstar

Just so long as they teach their kids that voting is a temptation from Satan that they should avoid at all costs, I'm okay with their teaching creationism as science.

Trivia: Back in the early 90s I think, after Bill Clinton was elected, Paul Weyrich did indeed issue a call for evangelicals to abandon politics as a lost cause, and retreat to the private & spiritual realm.

re: #48 Decatur Deb

S' ok. I ran it through my Vatican decoder ring.

I want one of those!

In the end, limiting an education to "approved texts" is narrowminded and indoctrinational by definition. A real education comes from exposure to multiple ideas and information and sorting thru it.

re: #85 tronman

Bye now!

re: #81 Charles

"Federal statistics from 2007 show 83 percent of home-schooling parents want to give their children “religious or moral instruction."

Frankly, I see nothing wrong with that per se.

re: #63 Charles

Lots of crazies now showing up at Richard Metzger's site:

[Link: www.dangerousminds.net...]

It's a perfect swarm of Teh Crazy!

Troll grill!

re: #81 Charles

tsk. what percentage of the 83% wish to teach something other than evolution?

re: #67 researchok

No, of course not.

But the conversation isn't esoteric. Germany when you live through that, there are residual effects.

There's a reason there are anti Nazi laws that are taken very seriously.

Well, that's Germany, a society naturally inclined to regimentation. But who here is going to claim with a straight face that the same thing needs to be done here, for the same reasons?

As Rush Limbaugh says, follow the money trail.

Home schooling is big business for evangelical leaders and organizations. Their pseudoscience books are easy to produce compared to real science, since the authors can make it up as they go along, beginning with a dogma that was originally tailored to illiterate nomads in ancient times.
I have a copy of the teacher's edition of Earth Science for Christian Schools. This reads like a communist era indoctrination manual from Russia, with young earth antiscience substituted for Marxist dogma in all the little aside and "discussion" sections. Lies and distortions abound, especially the creationist staples, strawmen and errors of omission. In attacking radiocarbon dating, for example, it fails to mention that RCD is not used to date ancient rocks or much of anything other than fairly recent organic materal.
It is a nicely produced book, with good illustrations and production quality. It is a publication of the notorious Bob Jones University and is a top money maker for them.
It is also very broad in its treatment of the subject, including dark age superstitions about astronomy, meteorology, chemistry and related subjects.

re: #63 Charles

Looked at the 25 min. length of that video and groaned, then decided whotthell, gotta shove my housekeeping chores aside and watch it.

Lots of common sense from you, sir.
*salute*

[While I don't always agree with you] ... as I told you once, I know I can trust you.

re: #77 keloyd

The argument of the role of government trumps the argument of of whether we're pissed off by creationism, imho. As repellent as that Apologia Publishing company looks, my libertarian principals are telling me the government should mind its own business, though we're approaching the line. Kids in bad public schools are swindled at least as badly as those raised by loving parents who indulge in these myths.

In other news, who gave them permission to use a Catholic word? The only place I've ever heard "apologetics" (meaning explanation, not to be sorry) is with the Catholics. It's their word. It's their dead language. These clowns are putting on airs whipping out a venerable word like that.

Cato might take issue with your claim that Latin is "their" language. Latin predates the Catholic Church by quite a lot.

re: #88 webevintage

I want one of those!

Standard one, or Alexander VI Poison Pill option?

re: #93 Cato the Elder

Troll grill!

that was Roy Jones Jr-esque fast.

re: #77 keloyd

In other news, who gave them permission to use a Catholic word? The only place I've ever heard "apologetics" (meaning explanation, not to be sorry) is with the Catholics. It's their word. It's their dead language. These clowns are putting on airs whipping out a venerable word like that.

I remember the first time I came across them and thought, of cool, someone other the Seton who publishes texts for Catholic homeschoolers.
Sadly I was wrong.

re: #81 Charles

Federal statistics from 2007 show 83 percent of home-schooling parents want to give their children “religious or moral instruction.”

Do you have the a link for the original source of this statement. I can't find one. All the web sites I find so far are repeating the statement but show no source expect the origianl article from Raw Story. Because this is far different than the the National Center for Education Statistics of 36%.

I would like to see the source data for all this. (I'll keep looking too).

Link?

re: #99 Decatur Deb

Standard one, or Alexander VI Poison Pill option?

I got the Pius II ring, with the built in Vlad Tepes signal for if I get into trouble.

re: #92 Alouette

It's a perfect swarm of Teh Crazy!

And one of them smells a lot like one of the leaders of the stalker blog.

re: #81 Charles

Okay, taking that, then 2% of kids are home schooled...do we then make the jump to all of those are anti-science? We are still talking about 2% of kids...

not even close to the 20% that are mildly illiterate.

And, from personal experience, a public school kid can come home an be punished for discussing Evolution, this is not relegated to homeschoolers.

Once again, ignoring science is stupid, ignoring literacy is deadly.

re: #100 Aceofwhat?

that was Roy Jones Jr-esque fast.

I never get to see the trolls before they're gone.

re: #52 Cato the Elder

I know at least one ultra-lib greener who is homeschooling her kid to be knocked on the head and robbed the first time he goes to the big city by himself. He's being taught to be Bodhisattva in a world of jackal-headed monsters.

It all comes down to the parents.

To get fully religious, Ethics of the Fathers answers all of this quite eloquently.

Here are the Avos that I think most apply:

Avtalyon would say: Scholars, be careful with your words. For you may be exiled to a place inhabited by evil elements [who will distort your words to suit their negative purposes]. The disciples who come after you will then drink of these evil waters and be destroyed, and the Name of Heaven will be desecrated.

In other words nothing good comes from teaching scripture falsely or teaching kids lies or twisting the words to suit your own ends.

Rabban Gamliel would say: Assume for yourself a master; stay away from doubt; and do not accustom yourself to tithe by estimation.

In other words, have the humility to understand that others know more than you do, find out facts for yourself from good sources and do not allow yourself to think sloppily.

Be careful with the government, for they befriend a person only for their own needs. They appear to be friends when it is beneficial to them, but they do not stand by a person at the time of his distress.

Self explanatory really. Do the wingnuts really think that the pols throwing them bones are all on the same wavelength?

He (Hillel) would also say: A boor cannot be sin-fearing, an ignoramus cannot be pious, a bashful one cannot learn, a short-tempered person cannot teach, nor does anyone who does much business grow wise. In a place where there are no men, strive to be a man.

In other words, we have a personal responsibility to learn the truth and not be distracted by materialism when the truths of our actions contradict our comfortable lies. Moreover, we have a duty to speak the truth to those who are lying to themselves even if it is not popular.

Rabbi Joshua would say: An evil eye, the evil inclination, and the hatred of one's fellows, drive a person from the world.

Self explanatory really.

Rabbi Tarfon would say: The day is short, the work is much, the workers are lazy, the reward is great, and the Master is pressing.

He would also say: It is not incumbent upon you to finish the task, but neither are you free to absolve yourself from it...

IN other words you really do have a duty not just to the truth but to do what is right. To say I can not even try is a sin in of itself.

re: #102 Walter L. Newton

Do you have the a link for the original source of this statement. I can't find one. All the web sites I find so far are repeating the statement but show no source expect the origianl article from Raw Story. Because this is far different than the the National Center for Education Statistics of 36%.

I would like to see the source data for all this. (I'll keep looking too).

Link?

I found a link for the 2003 federal stats for 36 percent...

[Link: nces.ed.gov...]

Still looking for 2007 and 83 percent?

re: #95 The Sanity Inspector

Well, that's Germany, a society naturally inclined to regimentation. But who here is going to claim with a straight face that the same thing needs to be done here, for the same reasons?

I couldn't agree more.

Germany and Europe in general have no problem with regulating hate speech. It's hard for people here to understand, but the scars run deep.

Germany is the only nation on earth that erects monuments to it's own shame.

re: #81 Charles

Stop oppressing him with facts and logic!!!

///

re: #81 Charles

That seems at odds with the 36% figure for why people homeschool, cited by someone else, above.

And I sort of wonder about the question itself. I, as a parent, most certainly want to give my children "moral instruction"; everyone wants that, I thought, so the only surprise here is that 100% didn't agree with it. Many want to give their children religious instruction, as well.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing ethics courses taught at the high school level in public schools. It isn't too early to introduce the concepts, and it certainly wouldn't be a bad thing.

re: #104 Charles

And one of them smells a lot like one of the leaders of the stalker blog.

Ye shall know them by their reek.

re: #2 SpaceJesus

Why are we down-dinging this? Homeschooling should definitely be highly regulated and possibly illegal, although that would need to be accompanied by a wholesale restructuring of our school system to present free alternative schools.
For a while I was convinced that homeschooling was a great alternative. My best friend was "unschooling" and her little tykes were SO advanced, so literate, so interesting and clever and imaginative. It helped that my friend had degrees in Greek and Chemistry from an Ivy League school. She was an educated Christian parent giving her kids a carefully cloistered, protected environment in which to become kind of 19th-century eccentrics, and they were great. They knew a lot about all sorts of things. They did AP science courses at home, and spoke Latin, and memorized poetry... All the cool stuff.
Eventually, though, they were completely unable to function in the real world. At all. The youngest managed to survive being quickly shoved into a public highschool after the older ones had crashed and burned. They all still live at home. None has a job.
Our society allows this??
My brother homeschools--not for Evangelical reasons, but simply because he hated school and doesn't want his kids to have to endure it. His wife never attended college. His kids learn absolutely no science or history. They just read books and do basic math and Latin. What kind of citizens of the world will they ever become? In his state there are no standards for home-schoolers. There is no obligation for the kids to learn ANYTHING.
Our society allows this??
People in other countries think this is absolutely nuts and, after close experience of these two very different homeschooling families, I am coming to agree with them.

re: #107 LudwigVanQuixote

IN other words you really do have a duty not just to the truth but to do what is right. To say I can not even try is a sin in of itself.

I agree 100%
Also, IMO, for a person to REFUSE to use the intelligence and logic that God had given them (by denying what is obvious and in plain sight), is a sin.

re: #109 researchok

I couldn't agree more.

Germany and Europe in general have no problem with regulating hate speech. It's hard for people here to understand, but the scars run deep.

Germany is the only nation on earth that erects monuments to it's own shame.

In Germany's case, I would assume one of the reasons they reject home schooling is to ensure their national history isn't altered by revisionists.

re: #114 reine.de.tout

I agree 100%
Also, IMO, for a person to REFUSE to use the intelligence and logic that God had given them (by denying what is obvious and in plain sight), is a sin.

And all of the sages of history would agree with that.

The fundie nuts have carefully crafted a Creationism legend - no doubt.

But it is their End Times fantasy of 'Death and Torture to all Non-Evangelicals' that troubles me more.

I fear they will act on it.

re: #111 SixDegrees

That seems at odds with the 36% figure for why people homeschool, cited by someone else, above.

And I sort of wonder about the question itself. I, as a parent, most certainly want to give my children "moral instruction"; everyone wants that, I thought, so the only surprise here is that 100% didn't agree with it. Many want to give their children religious instruction, as well.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing ethics courses taught at the high school level in public schools. It isn't too early to introduce the concepts, and it certainly wouldn't be a bad thing.

I'm looking for an official federal stats for that 83 percent figure, and so far, I only find people sourcing to the original story and the original story has no link/source for that statement.

It's interesting I can find the National Center for Education Statistics report of 2003 with no trouble, the other vague reference to 83 percent doesn't lead me to anything yet.

re: #91 Cato the Elder

Frankly, I see nothing wrong with that per se.

I've only know 2 home schooled kids in my life..So I don't know shit..But Both kids had no clue about a social life and were quite frankly ***. ( insert word here)
I would vote for a law that forces all kids to go to private or public schools..Period...No home schooling..period..

re: #113 elizajane

Home schooling is one thing. Home schooling to a particular agenda (religious, racial, moral, etc) is quite another.

re: #111 SixDegrees

That seems at odds with the 36% figure for why people homeschool, cited by someone else, above.

And I sort of wonder about the question itself. I, as a parent, most certainly want to give my children "moral instruction"; everyone wants that, I thought, so the only surprise here is that 100% didn't agree with it. Many want to give their children religious instruction, as well.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing ethics courses taught at the high school level in public schools. It isn't too early to introduce the concepts, and it certainly wouldn't be a bad thing.

I wanted my child to have the full benefit of a good education, including a rigorous introduction to real science AND religious instruction too.

And she's gotten it. The two things are not incompatible.

re: #118 Walter L. Newton

I'm looking for an official federal stats for that 83 percent figure, and so far, I only find people sourcing to the original story and the original story has no link/source for that statement.

It's interesting I can find the National Center for Education Statistics report of 2003 with no trouble, the other vague reference to 83 percent doesn't lead me to anything yet.

it was a top post here some time back, might even be the source you used for the 36%. I used 50% cause it seemed more realistic.

re: #113 elizajane

don't compare SAT scores between home schoolers and public schoolers.

that level of dissonance is bad for the carotid arteries, i hear.

re: #121 reine.de.tout

I wanted my child to have the full benefit of a good education, including a rigorous introduction to real science AND religious instruction too.

And she's gotten it. The two things are not incompatible.

Unfortunately, too many people think that a belief in God and accepting that evolution is a viable theory cannot share space in the same brain.

re: #96 Shiplord Kirel

Really good points, Shiplord.

There are lots of people making huge amounts of money off of this. Off of a system that intentionally tries to do more than keep children ignorant, but to make them reject reality.

That is foul.

Did you know that the Jerry Coyne mentioned in the WaPo article has an evolution blog?

OT

Andree Peel, French heroine who saved 102 Allied pilots from the Nazis, dies aged 105

An unsung Second World War heroine who saved more than 100 lives and survived a Nazi death squad has died aged 105.

Andree Peel, who was known as Agent Rose, helped 102 British and American pilots escape from her native France.

The resistance fighter was imprisoned in two concentration camps but was liberated and went on to settle in Long Ashton, Bristol, after the war.

re: #118 Walter L. Newton

I'm looking for an official federal stats for that 83 percent figure, and so far, I only find people sourcing to the original story and the original story has no link/source for that statement.

It's interesting I can find the National Center for Education Statistics report of 2003 with no trouble, the other vague reference to 83 percent doesn't lead me to anything yet.

I don't have any trouble believing it, myself. The question is entirely innocuous, as I read it. What parent doesn't want to provide moral instruction to their children? And while I personally prefer to defer religious nudging until people are old enough to evaluate such things for themselves, many people feel otherwise, and at least want their children exposed to a religion from a young age. Hard to find anything in the question itself to disagree with; it's actually surprising to me that the tally wasn't closer to 100%.

re: #113 elizajane

What plan did your friend have for socialization of the kids?

re: #98 SixDegrees

Cato might take issue with your claim that Latin is "their" language. Latin predates the Catholic Church by quite a lot.

I'd argue that Latin belongs to the Catholics now. No one else speaks it out loud, in complete sentences. Scientists and lawyers use a lot of words, but "apologetics" is unambiguously the property of Catholic theology.

...not that they pronounce it well. I've heard that Americans learn Latin as spoken by Augustus, at the time of Christ, and British kids learn the Latin of 3 centuries later, when the Romans were there. My old Latin teacher winced at JPII's pronunciation (at a time when he was healthy and didn't slur his words otherwise.)

Just read the comments on FR. It was one of the very first blogs I was a member of but I didn't last long. I found myself blocked after having the audacity to defend a young woman getting abortion after being raped by her step-father. Well, I was ridiculed ruthlessly and then found myself banned and unable to respond.

The book Quiverfull addresses the movement of culture warriors rather well. For those who haven't read it, give it a read. The author remained surprisingly objective given the source material. I had never been exposed to that kind of Christianity before. It was quite an eye opener.

The movie Jesus Camp briefly addressed homeschooling and evolution. Their was a short clip of a "teacher" mommy instructing her aspiring preacher son on evolution to the tune of "evolution isn't true! 'cause it isn't!" F*cked up.

re: #122 Stonemason

it was a top post here some time back, might even be the source you used for the 36%. I used 50% cause it seemed more realistic.

My link, the source say... This report represents the latest survey information from the National Center for Education Statistics on the prevalence of homeschooling in the United States. Homeschooling in the United States: 2003 uses the Parent and Family Involvement Survey of the 2003 National Household Education Surveys Program (NHES) to estimate the number and percentage of homeschooled students in the United States in 2003 and to describe the characteristics of these students and their families.

I don't think the 83 percent figure comes from this source.

[Link: nces.ed.gov...]

re: #121 reine.de.tout

I wanted my child to have the full benefit of a good education, including a rigorous introduction to real science AND religious instruction too.

And she's gotten it. The two things are not incompatible.

Yes, indeed. I think that's what the overwhelming majority of parents want for their children.

re: #89 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

In the end, limiting an education to "approved texts" is narrowminded and indoctrinational by definition. A real education comes from exposure to multiple ideas and information and sorting thru it.

I disagree with this entirely, when it applies to things like science. You don't get a real education if you're exposed to multiple faulty ideas.

Let's just round up all the babies after they're born and put them in big baby barns. All raised together. Wouldn't want one kid having a different upbringing from another.

re: #61 HoosierHoops

Glenn Beck...Tonight you have truly gone over the top...
I can't believe it.. You have gone off the rails..

Last night I had the most hilarious conversation about Beck with my sister. She had me in stitches. In general she's not really up on US politics or who is who especially in the media sphere. I mentioned something about Glen Beck and she told me her experience with seeing Glen Beck for the first time. I think she's a good example of how he comes across to some people who just don't know him from anything.

She was channel surfing one day and came across his show so she stopped for a second. He was ranting about something or other and on at least that day she thought he was making some sort of sense and was pretty funny. She thought she was watching a comedy news show. So a few days later she was looking for something to watch and it was Beck time again. She starts watching and he's was talking about some people at what they were doing and kept saying that these were good Americans or something or other, that he appreciated them blah blah. That's when the confusion started because she was trying to figure out why if he liked them he was making them look like total idiots and talking like a total idiot about what they were doing. Was this satire or something? Did she just not get this comedians humor? She sat there a figured that this was some sort of American style humor that she just didn't get or something.
It actually bothered her that she couldn't get the humor until it started to dawn on her that no, this guy may not actually be a comedian and that yes, this may be a serious show, that in fact this guy was not kidding or trying to be purposely funny.

She said that as she continued to watch her confusion turned to horror and total disbelief. Then she did some googling and that was that for her and Glen Beck.

re: #123 Aceofwhat?

I don't understand your comment. Does it purport to explain why you down-dinged me? Thanks.

re: #81 Charles

Could I see a link to that stat? My first reaction is that moral instruction properly begins and belongs at home. I would not ask job that of my secular school system. But the study you cite may be using the term differently.

I would actually hope religious lessons are welcome at home. In addition to the usual Reading, writing, and math. If we mean religion instead of reading or writing or math, well there lies a problem.

Professor Jerry Coyne is quoted in this article: "I feel fairly strongly about this. These books are promulgating lies to kids."

When Coyne posted to his blog about the subject, it prompted a deluge of vitriol and abuse from Christian homeschoolers, including this gem: The home-schoolers respond « Why Evolution Is True.

Hey Jerry Coyne fuck you. You evolution faggot. Darwinism and evolution are the biggest pile of shit lies ever made on the face of GODS green earth. People in the 1800’s thought Darwin was a dumb ass fucking lunatic. Home school books are lying to children? On no you son of a bitch you and all these liberal piece of shit scum bag evolutionists are lying to children and every public school in the world. . . So go fuck your self or an ape and evolve some grotesque ape kids you loser fuck. I beat the shit out of people like you, you cock smoking douche nozzle.

re: #132 Walter L. Newton

yeah, you are right, the other one was from 2007. I know it was discussed here, rather recently (month of three).

re: #138 Rightwingconspirator

Could I see a link to that stat? My first reaction is that moral instruction properly begins and belongs at home. I would not ask job that of my secular school system. But the study you cite may be using the term differently.

I would actually hope religious lessons are welcome at home. In addition to the usual Reading, writing, and math. If we mean religion instead of reading or writing or math, well there lies a problem.

The link is right there in the post. It's a quote from the Associated Press article.

I don't see any reason to assume it isn't true.

re: #128 SixDegrees

I don't have any trouble believing it, myself. The question is entirely innocuous, as I read it. What parent doesn't want to provide moral instruction to their children? And while I personally prefer to defer religious nudging until people are old enough to evaluate such things for themselves, many people feel otherwise, and at least want their children exposed to a religion from a young age. Hard to find anything in the question itself to disagree with; it's actually surprising to me that the tally wasn't closer to 100%.

I just want to know what the source is. The 83 percent figure so far seems to be unsourced, and that's my only concern. So far, this 2003 federal study is the only source I can find for figures coming from the government

[Link: nces.ed.gov...]

I've gotten dozens of hate mails just like the one Coyne posted, by the way. This is not unusual at all.

re: #134 Obdicut

I disagree with this entirely, when it applies to things like science. You don't get a real education if you're exposed to multiple faulty ideas.

Slight addendum: Not when you're exposed to faulty ideas whose flaws aren't exposed, and when you're not given the tools for the requisite critical thinking to uncover them as such.
Teachings that say 'evolution is just a theory' fall into that category.

re: #141 Charles

The link is right there in the post. It's a quote from the Associated Press article.

I don't see any reason to assume it isn't true.

The link to the article is n the post, I am still interested in which "federal" figures they used to get the 83 percent figure.

I don't assume anything, I want to know the source, that's all.

re: #137 elizajane

I don't understand your comment. Does it purport to explain why you down-dinged me? Thanks.

yes. data is not the plural of your two anecdotes. on the whole, data shows that homeschooling does not produce slobbering, nonfunctioning idiots.

one can simultaneously agree with that statement and also deplore the teaching of blatant, idiotic antiscience nonsense...in a home or in a school.

re: #144 iceweasel

Yes. Or revisionist history, for example, too. It's fine to read David Irving as long as its in the context of showing the flaws and failures of David Irving. Presenting his history as correct would be a huge disservice to education, though.

re: #143 Charles

An abundance of mental giants.

re: #139 Charles

God just called. Apparently He has no idea who wrote that post, nor does the guy who wrote that post have any idea who He is...

sigh

re: #134 Obdicut

I disagree with this entirely, when it applies to things like science. You don't get a real education if you're exposed to multiple faulty ideas.

I can agree with that, but by learning basic rational deduction and logic, a person can learn to spot shoddy reasoning and poorly developed scientific theories.

One of my best teachers in High School once told me "I'm not here to teach US History. I'm here to teach you how to learn about US History." I think we used the textbook once the whole year, the rest of the time we were in the library. Best class and teacher I ever had.

re: #139 Charles

When Coyne posted to his blog about the subject, it prompted a deluge of vitriol and abuse from Christian homeschoolers, including this gem ...

That's not an unusual post from a creationist. I see that stuff all the time -- on other sites. I won't permit it at my place.

If you're a parent and you do value critical thinking and want to impart this skill to your kids, school isn't that much better. I'm coming from an Ivan Illich, Deschooling Society perspective here.

Charles, I know that you've got the spark for teaching yourself many things, and that's the spark that parents want their kids to have. School just saps the energy of that spark.

That said, there is a difference between the difficulty keeping that spark alive (all kids have it before they go to school), and willfully misinforming your kids.

re: #121 reine.de.tout

I think we've managed to do this also, give solid instruction in both fields.

re: #139 Charles

Why do these types always resort to using "teh ghey" to insult those they disagree with? So juvenile.

Evangelical homeschoolers are raising a generation of kids who are “culture warriors,” spreading a message of ignorance and superstition, in an age when science and technology are vitally important.

All I know is, when I went to sleep last night I put my dead cell phone on my Bible and when I woke up it was charged. So you tell me.
;)

re: #130 keloyd

I'd argue that Latin belongs to the Catholics now. No one else speaks it out loud, in complete sentences. Scientists and lawyers use a lot of words, but "apologetics" is unambiguously the property of Catholic theology.

...not that they pronounce it well. I've heard that Americans learn Latin as spoken by Augustus, at the time of Christ, and British kids learn the Latin of 3 centuries later, when the Romans were there. My old Latin teacher winced at JPII's pronunciation (at a time when he was healthy and didn't slur his words otherwise.)

Church Latin is supposedly medieval in pronounciation and some words. Your prof probably followed the MLA recreations of older language. Remember that Augustus spoke a language that was 400 yrs or so younger than what he considered "ancestral".

re: #98 SixDegrees

Cato might take issue with your claim that Latin is "their" language. Latin predates the Catholic Church by quite a lot.

As I can prove.

Old Latin:

duenos mēd fēced en mānōm einom duenōi nē mēd malo(s) statōd

"A good man made me for a good man. Let the wicked not steal."

re: #154 bosforus

All I know is, when I went to sleep last night I put my dead cell phone on my Bible and when I woke up it was charged. So you tell me.
;)

well played

re: #113 elizajane

Why are we down-dinging this?

Well, downdinging SpaceJesus has become a bit of a tradition around these parts.

Other than that, you do raise issues I wish were taken more seriously. There is "education", and then there is education. Schools are more than about simply getting the highest score on some standardized tests, even if segments of our society are obsessed with that idea.

re: #147 Obdicut

Yes. Or revisionist history, for example, too. It's fine to read David Irving as long as its in the context of showing the flaws and failures of David Irving. Presenting his history as correct would be a huge disservice to education, though.

Right exactly. Or even read irving back before he went revisionist-- my understanding is that his first book (on Dresden IIRC) was very good. Actually it was that former reputation of his that made him extremely dangerous,-- that former veneer of respectability-- more so than some stormfronter yelling at a rally.

re: #113 elizajane

Why are we down-dinging this? Homeschooling should definitely be highly regulated and possibly illegal, although that would need to be accompanied by a wholesale restructuring of our school system to present free alternative schools.
For a while I was convinced that homeschooling was a great alternative. My best friend was "unschooling" and her little tykes were SO advanced, so literate, so interesting and clever and imaginative. It helped that my friend had degrees in Greek and Chemistry from an Ivy League school. She was an educated Christian parent giving her kids a carefully cloistered, protected environment in which to become kind of 19th-century eccentrics, and they were great. They knew a lot about all sorts of things. They did AP science courses at home, and spoke Latin, and memorized poetry... All the cool stuff.
Eventually, though, they were completely unable to function in the real world. At all. The youngest managed to survive being quickly shoved into a public highschool after the older ones had crashed and burned. They all still live at home. None has a job.
Our society allows this??
My brother homeschools--not for Evangelical reasons, but simply because he hated school and doesn't want his kids to have to endure it. His wife never attended college. His kids learn absolutely no science or history. They just read books and do basic math and Latin. What kind of citizens of the world will they ever become? In his state there are no standards for home-schoolers. There is no obligation for the kids to learn ANYTHING.
Our society allows this??
People in other countries think this is absolutely nuts and, after close experience of these two very different homeschooling families, I am coming to agree with them.

A sad anecdote. It is not obvious, however, that the solution for that family's misfortune is to revoke parental rights over their children's upbringing, semper et ubique.

re: #150 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I can agree with that, but by learning basic rational deduction and logic, a person can learn to spot shoddy reasoning and poorly developed scientific theories.

The thing is, much of science is counterintuitive, and not immediately logical-- especially biology. Science is not arbitrary in the context of the rest of science, but individual parts of it do look unbelievable. Moreover, there are many places where two theories are equally good explanations, but only one has been shown to be likely through actual observational evidence.

The skill of spotting shoddy theories is a great one to teach, but is far harder to teach than the correct information itself.

re: #139 Charles

That's vicious.

I wonder what's the root source of that vitriol. Fear?

"So go fuck your self or an ape and evolve some grotesque ape kids you loser fuck. I beat the shit out of people like you, you cock smoking douche nozzle."

very Christian

re: #113 elizajane

Eventually, though, they were completely unable to function in the real world. At all. The youngest managed to survive being quickly shoved into a public highschool after the older ones had crashed and burned. They all still live at home. None has a job.
Our society allows this??

I know people who couldn't survive in the real world after attending only public schools. And as was mentioned above, I work with a contractor that managed to get a high school degree while being almost completely illiterate (hell of a good linebacker though). Therefore public education should be even more heavily regulated or possibly outlawed right?

Aren't orthodox Jewish kids taught creationism in Temple school?

Geez, run out to the grocery, pick up the kids and start dinner and apparently the whole kookosphere is in freefall. Nice series of post there, CJ.

On a ligher, personal note: in the span of 4 days, 2 feet of snow has melted, the sun is shining, the crocus' are up, the thyme is smashing, the oregano is bounding back to life, the asparagus patch is mulched and manured, the deer didn't kill the apple trees, the ground hogs have been spawning (OH NOES!!~!@!!!11!! SPAWN OF THE GROUNDHOG, HIDE YOUR SPINACH!11!! - this movie has not been rated), I've duplicated the James Jamerson's bass sound,

and there's 3 acres of dog shit waiting to be picked up. Who's free this weekend? It's best in the morning while it's still freezing. Really.

Spring is Springing.

re: #158 freetoken

Well, downdinging SpaceJesus has become a bit of a tradition around these parts.

Other than that, you do raise issues I wish were taken more seriously. There is "education", and then there is education. Schools are more than about simply getting the highest score on some standardized tests, even if segments of our society are obsessed with that idea.

I stand by my vote on the inanity of that post, as opposed to other posts of theirs on this thread that I have not touched. So there's that explanation, too...

re: #146 Aceofwhat?

I think that a system that erases all accountability for a child's learning and their socialization--ALL accountability--is wrong. It's right up there with allowing kids not to be vaccinated. There are certain things that a complex society needs in order to function, and that individuals need in order to function in it. Parents shouldn't be allowed to just decide that their kids will be permanently opted out of that society. I'm sure that many home-schooled kids do well, but they'd do just as well if they'd been held to some sort of standards.

re: #162 eclectic infidel

Fear?

(butting in)

That would be my guess.

Psychology Today blog on Tea Partiers -

this hodgepodge of people and groups spout frankly paranoid beliefs as received wisdom, e.g. the Federal Reserve is our enemy and should be abolished, citizens should stock up on ammo, gold, and survival food in anticipation of an impending Civil War, states should "nullify" federal laws and even secede, medical records are being shipped to federal bureaucrats, the Army is seeking "Internment/Resettlement" specialists, Obama is trying to create crises in order to destroy the economy, convert Interpol into his personal police force, and create a New World Order. Conspiracy theories involving shadowy elites like the Trilateral Commission and the Council on Foreign Relations have resurfaced. Self-defense and armed resistance are frequently called for. Racist stereotypes, innuendo, and hostility run rampant. The Constitution is its sacred text and Glenn Beck its most beloved prophet. They don't usually wear aluminum hats but perhaps they should.

I think this guy missed the fundie angle on the story totally. The single biggest issue among the lost right is their use of religion as policy.

[Link: www.psychologytoday.com...]

re: #161 Obdicut

The thing is, much of science is counterintuitive, and not immediately logical-- especially biology. Science is not arbitrary in the context of the rest of science, but individual parts of it do look unbelievable. Moreover, there are many places where two theories are equally good explanations, but only one has been shown to be likely through actual observational evidence.

The skill of spotting shoddy theories is a great one to teach, but is far harder to teach than the correct information itself.

And I would add that one must have a basic understanding of the actual information, of what is currently known, in order to spot a shoddy theory.

re: #153 Slumbering Behemoth

Why do these types always resort to using "teh ghey" to insult those they disagree with? So juvenile.

I honestly think that for some people, being gay is the worst thing imaginable. It's the ultimate insult to them given their prejudice and assumptions.

re: #165 Rightwingconspirator

I know a bunch of very successful smart Jewish men who have done quite well with an orthodox upbringing. Their intellect seems intact and quite capable of keeping up with the rset of us secular educated people.

re: #163 cliffster

"So go fuck your self or an ape and evolve some grotesque ape kids you loser fuck. I beat the shit out of people like you, you cock smoking douche nozzle."

very Christian

heh. the only upside to folks like this is that their inevitable encounter with God will be sooo much more interesting than just about anyone else's.

re: #163 cliffster

"So go fuck your self or an ape and evolve some grotesque ape kids you loser fuck. I beat the shit out of people like you, you cock smoking douche nozzle."

very Christian

And this coming from someone who could in all likelihood pass as an extra from Deliverance.

re: #143 Charles

I've gotten dozens of hate mails just like the one Coyne posted, by the way. This is not unusual at all.

Charles, I do not normally write paens, but you deserve one.

The ignorant hate to have their ignorance pointed out to them.

To repeat:

Assume for yourself a master; stay away from doubt; and do not accustom yourself to tithe by estimation.

In other words, have the humility to understand that others know more than you do, find out facts for yourself from good sources and do not allow yourself to think sloppily.

As to you Charles, the line about striving to be a man in a place where there are no men surely applies. You have taken the stand for what is true and proper in the face of great adversity more than once.

I have often commented to friends that would classify you as some wingnut, that it would have likely been far easier and more lucrative for you to toe the "party line." You were certainly poised to be the "king of the right wing blogosphere, and no doubt GOP speaking engagements and a gig at Fox pay well.

Yet you were too honest to do that. That is called being a mensch. You will always have my full support and admiration for that.

re: #168 elizajane

I think that a system that erases all accountability for a child's learning and their socialization--ALL accountability--is wrong. It's right up there with allowing kids not to be vaccinated. There are certain things that a complex society needs in order to function, and that individuals need in order to function in it. Parents shouldn't be allowed to just decide that their kids will be permanently opted out of that society. I'm sure that many home-schooled kids do well, but they'd do just as well if they'd been held to some sort of standards.

if by "some sort of standards" you mean "what is typically produced by public education", i would gently like to point out a basic flaw in your argument as i understand it...

re: #165 Rightwingconspirator

Aren't orthodox Jewish kids taught creationism in Temple school?

I asked this approximate question a few days ago and got a lot of answers. The consensus was there are no young earth creationist Jews anywhere other than a few crackpots who are in the US and influenced by Evangelical Christians.

The nuanced position of the Divine Hand setting the laws of physics and arranging things so they turn out as they do, that's much more common.

re: #165 Rightwingconspirator

When they're young. The idea is to grow out of it and get into some of the heavy commentary, where you will find the Big Bang Theory explained in about 1200 C.E. The problem, again, is that school saps the curiosity from kids and they may never get to the cool stuff.

re: #130 keloyd

I'd argue that Latin belongs to the Catholics now. No one else speaks it out loud, in complete sentences. Scientists and lawyers use a lot of words, but "apologetics" is unambiguously the property of Catholic theology.

...not that they pronounce it well. I've heard that Americans learn Latin as spoken by Augustus, at the time of Christ, and British kids learn the Latin of 3 centuries later, when the Romans were there. My old Latin teacher winced at JPII's pronunciation (at a time when he was healthy and didn't slur his words otherwise.)

Wrong.

Simply wrong.

"Apologetics" has nothing specifically Catholic about it. It is found in every Christian denomination, even those who think the Pope is the Great Beast (το μεγα θηριον). It merely means "explanation and defense of the faith" - even if your faith involves drinking poison and fondling snakes.

When I write my apologiam pro vita sua, it will all become clear to you, and the world will gasp in amaze.

Store this in the "who gives a shit?" department. Home-schooling has been positively correlated with SAT scores, % college attendance, and many other measures of overall academic achievement. These results are unambiguous.

The evolution/creation "debate" is so far removed from the real issues in education, it's laughable.

re: #175 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And this coming from someone who could in all likelihood pass as an extra from Deliverance.

Paddle faster, I hear banjos

re: #171 reine.de.tout

Yes. Empiricism matters as much as anything else; we owe Hooke as much, if not more, than we owe Newton.

re: #119 HoosierHoops

I've only know 2 home schooled kids in my life..So I don't know shit..But Both kids had no clue about a social life and were quite frankly ***. ( insert word here)
I would vote for a law that forces all kids to go to private or public schools..Period...No home schooling..period..

Not in this country. I respectfully disagree.

re: #181 eker

If you really didn't give a shit, you wouldn't have even written a comment.

re: #181 eker

And yet another sleeper awakes.

re: #181 eker

First comment and you've been regged since 2007.
Heh.

re: #187 iceweasel

First comment and you've been regged since 2007.
Heh.

Haha, how long has it been waiting for the opportunity to show how much it doesn't care?

re: #186 Charles

And yet another sleeper awakes.

Phobias include: Old women with wooden boxes, Gom jabbars

Well, I never got an answer, so I will say this about homeschooled kids and socialization:

I have known hs kids who were so nerdy (not geeky, there's a difference) that they annoyed even me. I have known hs kids who were charismatic and everyone wanted to be their friend. I have known hs kids who were entrepreunerial and focused. I have known hs kids who were just about every level of everything out there.

Here's the catch: the kids tended to be whatever the parent was.

The eleven year-old girl that wrote a script, casted it, put together props and put on a ten-minute play without adult help was the daughter of a highly successful businessman.

The kid with too many friends had parents just the same.

Socially, the kids tend to be a lot like the parents.

Now, obviously, I only know the kids whose parents made the effort to join a group. I don't know any who school their kids in isolation.

re: #153 Slumbering Behemoth

Why do these types always resort to using "teh ghey" to insult those they disagree with? So juvenile.

To these people, homosexuality, communism, science, and racial equality are all the same thing, a pointed reminder that their cultural milieu has been left behind in the modern world, that they themselves have made some very bad choices, and that their inbred arrogance is no substitute for achievement and knowledge.

This is even more confusing... I just found the NCES report from 2007, which also compares the percentages to the 2003 report, and the percentages referenced to in the 2003 report on the 2007 don't even match the charts and table on their website for the 2003 report.

2007 report... 83 percent (up from 72 percent in 2003)

[Link: nces.ed.gov...]

2003 report... 29.8 percent...

[Link: nces.ed.gov...]

What was it in 2003, 29.8 percent or 72 percent?

re: #127 Shiplord Kirel

OT

Andree Peel, French heroine who saved 102 Allied pilots from the Nazis, dies aged 105

RIP. Closest thing to a fitting tribute I can think of offhand:

re: #35 SpaceJesus

lots of home schooled kids belong to coops. they do field trips together, play sports and have some classes together. especially if there are parents with particular areas of expertise. these kids are well rounded and well behaved. they aren't missing anything, especially when the public schools are teaching for standardized tests.

that being said there was a home school coop in my county that the paper ran an article on. these people were fanatics and one of the "teachers" had been to jail for bombing an abortion clinic; however, this could also happen with a radical religious school.

re: #188 cliffster

Haha, how long has it been waiting for the opportunity to show how much it doesn't care?

You'd think in all that time there might have been an issue, any issue, that caught his or her attention before. Like that election-thingy...

re: #180 Cato the Elder

It is not specifically Catholic, except that I've never heard the word in current use in Baptist, Presbyterian, or Lutheran churches, or in any non-religious context. If no one else uses it, possession is 9/10 of the law.

re: #181 eker

Are we supposed to be surprised that children respond positively to parental involvement?

There is no doubt that any child who has at least one parent who spends sufficient time with them during the day in a positive atmosphere ends emotionally, as well as intellectually, "rich".

Your approbation of topics to be discussed is not needed.

Home schooling poster child: Adam Gadahn.

re: #189 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

re: #195 iceweasel

You'd think in all that time there might have been an issue, any issue, that caught his or her attention before. Like that election-thingy...

Or all the heated evolution vs. creationism/id debates here. It's almost impressive that this person was silent for that sort of contention.

re: #165 Rightwingconspirator

Aren't orthodox Jewish kids taught creationism in Temple school?

Only at the nutty ones.

Also, no Orthodox kid would call it Temple. One of the little nuances for non-Jews is that Reform Jews have the notion that the Temple is a universal concept in terms of wherever you pray. It is a political statement in a sense in that they are claiming that certain parts of the Tradition are superseded or superfluous.

Orthodox Jews certainly believe that you can validly pray almost anywhere (not so much while on the toilet) but that there is only one Temple - in Jerusalem.

But back to creationism in Judaism, we are in general too scientific to take a literal interpretation of Genesis and have a huge Tradition of looking for deeper and hidden meanings in that text - and in that text in particular.

re: #198 mikeysdca

Competing with SJ for downdings?

re: #193 The Sanity Inspector

Why do I feel compelled to stand while that's playing?

Thanks!

re: #181 eker

The evolution/creation "debate" is so far removed from the real issues in education, it's laughable.

I agree that people shouldn't be told what they can teach their kids, but the point of this "debate" (obviously, your mind is made up as you use quotes around the word debate) is that parents are doing a disservice to their children by their knee-jerk insecurity regarding their child's ability to have faith in God and still learn about evolution. And that, in my opinion anyway, is the crux of the issue...people so insecure in their faith that they're afraid their kids will worship Satan or become teh ghey if they are taught something that doesn't come from the Bible.

But no, this debate isn't laughable. These same assholes who teach their kids evolution is false prophecy aren't satisfied ruining their own kids' education...they want to change the public schools to do the same.

re: #181 eker

Store this in the "who gives a shit?" department. Home-schooling has been positively correlated with SAT scores, % college attendance, and many other measures of overall academic achievement. These results are unambiguous.

The evolution/creation "debate" is so far removed from the real issues in education, it's laughable.

It has also been highly correlated with being an ignorant racist, dark ages douche bag. That is the point.

It is not that homeschooling is bad per se, it is that most of the people who do it, have no business teaching anything.

re: #199 Slumbering Behemoth

I've used this litany before in different situations:

1. before a job interview
2. before a date
3. talking something painful out with parents
4. gearing up for a session with a supervisor

It works.

re: #200 eclectic infidel

Or all the heated evolution vs. creationism/id debates here. It's almost impressive that this person was silent for that sort of contention.

It's almost tempting to believe he or she wasn't silent at all, but just found a sock in the dryer.
Who would do such a thing? Nah. No one's that crazy. ///

re: #113 elizajane

Our society allows this??
My brother homeschools--not for Evangelical reasons, but simply because he hated school and doesn't want his kids to have to endure it. His wife never attended college. His kids learn absolutely no science or history. They just read books and do basic math and Latin. What kind of citizens of the world will they ever become? In his state there are no standards for home-schoolers. There is no obligation for the kids to learn ANYTHING.

sigh.
How do you know what your brother's family does day to day? My sister thinks homeschooling should be illegal so, yeah, I never discuss it with her.
Ever.
She has no clue what went on in our home.

For every homeschool "horror story" like your friends I can cite 5 families that lived the type of lives they did who have produced happy adults who are living happy, productive lives.
Your other point would matter if everyone who went to school had a great job, did not live at home with their parents, never crashed and burned, had no social issues...should I go on?

I'm not trying to sound like a bitch, but really these arguments against homeschooling get. so. fucking. old.

re: #207 iceweasel

It's almost tempting to believe he or she wasn't silent at all, but just found a sock in the dryer.
Who would do such a thing? Nah. No one's that crazy. ///

i toootally disagree. no one finds a sock that stinky in a dryer//

re: #199 Slumbering Behemoth

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

Congratulations young human.

re: #206 eclectic infidel

It's not bad as a preparatory mantra.

re: #52 Cato the Elder

I know at least one ultra-lib greener who is homeschooling her kid to be knocked on the head and robbed the first time he goes to the big city by himself. He's being taught to be Bodhisattva in a world of jackal-headed monsters.

It all comes down to the parents.

Steely Dan - Bodhisattva

I've got to pick up Child Unit 1 from the Magnet School. Bye for now.

re: #186 Charles

And yet another sleeper awakes.

Somehow I don't think our sleepers here ever listened to the Incredible String Band.

re: #198 mikeysdca

Home schooling poster child: Adam Gadahn.

Great...that'll just get the Xian wackos to demand laws forbidding Christians from marrying Jews. "If it wasn't for his Jewish grandfather, he never would have converted to Islam!" or some other shit logic will inevitably come from this...

re: #206 eclectic infidel

I've used this litany before in different situations:

1. before a job interview
2. before a date
3. talking something painful out with parents
4. gearing up for a session with a supervisor

It works.

I found the anonymous Imperial Guardsman rewrite of "The Litany of Command" works for most occassions.

"When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt, run in little circles, wave your arms and shout."

re: #195 iceweasel

You'd think in all that time there might have been an issue, any issue, that caught his or her attention before. Like that election-thingy...

Some trolls are content catching fish under their bridge and seldom venture out. I'm just popping up to say hi before I have to head home again.

re: #214 Cato the Elder

Sorry for the incredibly long repetitive refrain at the end. Hit "stop" after the "sleepers" part.

re: #216 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I found the anonymous Imperial Guardsman rewrite of "The Litany of Command" works for most occassions.

"When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt, run in little circles, wave your arms and shout."

What's that from, Warhammer 40K?

Laundry and vacuum demands attention. Long day tomorrow.

Have a very good day, all.

re: #216 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Or, more tersely, "When in trouble, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout."

re: #212 cliffster

Sweet, haven't heard that song in forever. Can you show me the shine of your japan the sparkle of your china

re: #165 Rightwingconspirator

Aren't orthodox Jewish kids taught creationism in Temple school?

Evolution was taught in yeshiva day schools until the 1970's, when Rabbi Avigdor Miller initiated a "creationism" crusade, inspired by talking points from the Discovery Institute, or whatever the DI called itself back then.

Rabbinic sages like Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan, Rabbi Avraham Yitzchak Kook, and Rabbi Ovadiah Sforno have taught that the earth is billions of years old and that there is no contradiction between scientific study of origins and interpretation of creation in Scripture.

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

re: #198 mikeysdca

Home schooling poster child: Adam Gadahn.

It might be such a bad thing that Adam Gadahn wasn't really captured.
Now we don't have to listen to years of pre- tria moaning and mea culpas and cutesy little sophorisms like "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter", etc.

OK we have sleepers awakening and the litany against fear...

That's it, this mentat offers a hit of melange to any who want one.

Warning, side effects of melange include:

Universal understanding of just how savage, mean and cruel humans are and were through their entire history, morbid fascination with the great and terrifying forces of history, religious reflections on the fact that near infinite human potential is crippled by human frailty, acute depression and constipation.

In some small percentage of cases users have turned into giant sand worm/human hybrids.

re: #221 mikeysdca

Or, more tersely, "When in trouble, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout."

Upding for the Heinlein ref.

re: #188 cliffster

Haha, how long has it been waiting for the opportunity to show how much it doesn't care?

I have a suspicion some of these folks already have told us they don't care under different (and now blocked) nics.

re: #219 Dark_Falcon

What's that from, Warhammer 40K?

Yup. Lots of humor to be found in the grim future.

re: #223 Alouette

Evolution was taught in yeshiva day schools until the 1970's, when Rabbi Avigdor Miller initiated a "creationism" crusade, inspired by talking points from the Discovery Institute, or whatever the DI called itself back then.

Rabbinic sages like Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan, Rabbi Avraham Yitzchak Kook, and Rabbi Ovadiah Sforno have taught that the earth is billions of years old and that there is no contradiction between scientific study of origins and interpretation of creation in Scripture.

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Well said.

Also, the Arizal calculated the age of the universe to be around 14 billion years. He did this in the 1500's.

re: #221 mikeysdca

Or, more tersely, "When in trouble, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout."

Ah, the Glenn Beck approach to crisis management (minus the crying).

re: #43 reine.de.tout

If for no other reason than "this is what others believe", Darwin should be taught. What is so threatening about that? I took a religion class in my Catholic college. Learned about Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism.

It promotes understanding.

Faith is faith - it is belief in what we have no proof for. If a person is strong in faith, and can pass that on to their children, why can they not teach what others believe and not feel threatened?

re: #224 Capitalist Tool

It might be such a bad thing that Adam Gadahn wasn't really captured.
Now we don't have to listen to years of pre- tria moaning and mea culpas and cutesy little sophorisms like "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter", etc.

This way we still have a chance to put a Hellfire into his ear.

re: #220 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Laundry and vacuum demands attention. Long day tomorrow.

Have a very good day, all.

Bye, pBMb -

I'm out again. I'll be back in about 2 hours.

re: #224 Capitalist Tool

Patience. We don't know yet that the sod's dead.

re: #225 LudwigVanQuixote

It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains. The stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.

re: #228 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I would love to see The Culture, from Ian M. Banks's novels, encounter the Empire.

Don't Fuck With The Culture vs. the insanity of the Imperium.

re: #234 Dark_Falcon

I'm out again. I'll be back in about 2 hours.

Later DF!

re: #231 abbyadams

If for no other reason than "this is what others believe", Darwin should be taught. What is so threatening about that? I took a religion class in my Catholic college. Learned about Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism.

It promotes understanding.

Faith is faith - it is belief in what we have no proof for. If a person is strong in faith, and can pass that on to their children, why can they not teach what others believe and not feel threatened?

yes, daughter has also learned about other faiths in her religion classes.
You're quite correct - if a person is strong in faith, learning about other things will not threaten it.

re: #226 Cato the Elder

Always steal from the best.

re: #235 mikeysdca

Patience. We don't know yet that the sod's dead.

hope springs eternal

re: #180 Cato the Elder

Agreed. "Classical" languages are still taught in many institutions of higher learning, and studied in public schools, as well.

re: #232 Shiplord Kirel

This way we still have a chance to put a Hellfire into his ear.

I'd rather have him alive, giving guided tours to the 10th Mountain Div.

re: #159 iceweasel

Right exactly. Or even read irving back before he went revisionist-- my understanding is that his first book (on Dresden IIRC) was very good. Actually it was that former reputation of his that made him extremely dangerous,-- that former veneer of respectability-- more so than some stormfronter yelling at a rally.

Christopher Hitchens had a very good treatment of Irving's descent into the fever swamps here. You might want to bookmark it for later reading, as it's ten pages long.

re: #227 reine.de.tout

I have a suspicion some of these folks already have told us they don't care under different (and now blocked) nics.

no WAY!

re: #242 abbyadams

Learning Latin was the single most helpful and practical thing to come out of my childhood education, and I'm being totally serious. Nothing else has helped nearly as much. Partially because all my math teachers sucked, and one particular Latin teacher ruled, but still.

I encourage all of you to have your kids learn Latin. There are unique advantages to learning a 'dead' language.

re: #240 mikeysdca

Always steal from the best.

As T.S. Eliot taught me, "Immature poets imitate. Mature poets steal."

re: #243 Decatur Deb

I'd rather have him alive, giving guided tours to the 10th Mountain Div.

With the many recent successes, one might think that some number of "tour guides" are successfully employed.

re: #246 Obdicut

I encourage all of you to have your kids learn Latin. There are unique advantages to learning a 'dead' language.

It can make you sound real smart on live blogs

re: #247 Cato the Elder

He stole that quote, too, which is awesome.

The evolution/creationism debate is "so far removed from the real issues" that it's an explicit part of the GOP platform in at least a dozen states.

Don't they realize how unimportant this is?

re: #249 cliffster

It can make you sound real smart on live blogs

nota bene