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1 SteveMcG  Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:03:08pm

I have a story, and I'd like to see if the class can figure out the moral. A multinational air conditioning manufacturer owed my company 17ish thousand bucks, dating back to 2008. I kept sending statements, they kept ignoring them. I figured they were good for it but somebody was covering up either some accounting incompetence, or maybe even some fraud. So I started sending statements to the wrong divisions (actually I was trying to go upstairs on the corporate ladder) and they kept emailing me that I should send the stuff to the same so and so. I kept at it for awhile. Meanwhile, somebody in purchasing inquired about getting a new part. So I played along, gave them a price, made a few samples, and they finally placed an order for a whopping ten pieces. Sure, I tell 'em, 6 weeks is plenty of lead time. Well, when the shipping date finally came I sent the purchaser an email saying sorry, I have to hold that order until the old invoices are resolved. And I /accidentally/ sent that email to every contact I had encountered in the last few months. (Oopsies!) Within two hours, I found out that there was a new contact in accounts payable, I received three request for quotes for that part from other rubber companies, and at the end of it, they wire transferred all the money to my bank account. After all this hysteria the parts didn't have to go next day air, ground will do fine, thank you very much. So what's the moral of the story?

I waaaaaaaay undercharged for those ten pieces. I have to confess the result took me by surprise, I hadn't bothered making the ten pieces until after the money showed up!

2 wiffersnapper  Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:04:12pm

Nationalism, also known as "Lalalalala I can't hear yooooou!"-syndrome

3 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:04:48pm

I'd like to note that Orwell was one of those scary socialists.

4 SteveMcG  Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:04:50pm

Genocide? What genocide? They slipped.

5 ArchangelMichael  Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:04:56pm

Now for something completely different...

6 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:05:03pm

Next up in the wingnutosphere "How nationalism is truly a liberal, leftist ideology".

7 Gus  Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:06:42pm

re: #6 Slumbering Behemoth

Next up in the wingnutosphere "How nationalism is truly a liberal, leftist ideology".

Liberal Nationalism - By Jonah Goldberg

/

8 Bagua  Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:06:54pm

Got Messed Up


- RLB
9 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:15:28pm

First they came for the late night Lizards, and I was all like "WTF? Where did everyone go"?

10 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:16:57pm

re: #9 Slumbering Behemoth

Food for thought:

[Link: www.cracked.com...]

11 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:17:33pm

re: #1 SteveMcG

You gotta do whatcha gotta do.

Good work.

12 SteveMcG  Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:19:03pm

re: #11 Stanley Sea

I hadn't had so much fun since the cops chased a drug dealer through my factory.

13 ArchangelMichael  Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:35:55pm

Bonus points, or I guess an upding for anyone who can name the movie the samples in this originated from.

14 Bagua  Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:35:58pm

See What My Buddy Done


- RLB
15 Kragar  Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:41:51pm

re: #13 ArchangelMichael

Bonus points, or I guess an upding for anyone who can name the movie the samples in this originated from.

[Video]

Disney's "The Black Hole"

16 ArchangelMichael  Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:44:34pm

re: #15 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Ding ding you win the upding. Departing contestants will receive LGF LNDT: The Home Game and Lee Press-On Nails.

17 Kragar  Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:46:32pm

re: #16 ArchangelMichael

Ding ding you win the upding. Departing contestants will receive LGF LNDT: The Home Game and Lee Press-On Nails.

Kind of a give away between them actually saying "Its a black hole" and Roddy Mcdowell as Vincent chiming in.

18 ArchangelMichael  Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:50:30pm

re: #17 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Kind of a give away between them actually saying "Its a black hole" and Roddy Mcdowell as Vincent chiming in.

Yeah but there are some youngins around here and people who seemed to be under a rock at times who are completely flummoxed by any pop culture reference.

19 Kragar  Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:56:25pm

re: #18 ArchangelMichael

Yeah but there are some youngins around here and people who seemed to be under a rock at times who are completely flummoxed by any pop culture reference.

Their loss.

20 AK-47%  Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:57:05pm

Then we have the Turks shouting "What we did to those Armenians was not genocide! Now stop bugging us about it!!!"

But in that country we face the classic Rock/Hard Place dilemma: the main force countering this sort of militaristic-but-secular nationalism is Islamic Fundamentalism.

Remember what happened last time we took out a militant-but-secular nationalist?

21 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:01:49am

Just for the hell of it, the man that Geraldo and FNC deem fit to give airtime without sufficient ridicule: Joker.

22 meehap  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:34:35am

Apropos of Charles' quote, I just read this piece on the CIA guidance for waterboarding.

Worth reading in detail. Made me realize that you really need oversight of what goes on behind closed doors.


The memos also reveal that the Justice Department authorized the CIA to use it in combination with other forms of torture. Specifically, a detainee could be kept awake for more than seven days straight by shackling his hands in a standing position to a bolt in the ceiling so he could never sit down. The agency diapered and hand-fed its detainees during this period before putting them on the waterboard. Another memo from Bradbury, also from 2005, says that in between waterboarding sessions, a detainee could be physically slammed into a wall, crammed into a small box, placed in "stress positions" to increase discomfort and doused with cold water, among other things.

23 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:12:13am

re: #22 meehap

Apropos of Charles' quote, I just read this piece on the CIA guidance for waterboarding.

Worth reading in detail. Made me realize that you really need oversight of what goes on behind closed doors.

Link not working for me.

24 freetoken  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:19:07am
25 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:25:46am

Cheneyites Lose Stimson, Rivkin, Casey in al-Qaeda Shark-Jump

David Rivkin and Lee Casey are an op-ed-writing team of former GOP legal officials who defend practically every terrorism-related policy pushed by the Bush administration. Here they are saying that warrantless surveillance “has always been on firm legal ground.” Here they are saying that the Justice Department and CIA torture memos somehow prove “the actual techniques used… did not cause severe pain or degradation.” Here they are saying that Congress can do practically nothing to stop a war aside from ceasing to appropriate money for it. Clearly they know something about implausible spin. And even they think the Cheneyites crossed a line by calling Justice Department lawyers who defended Guantanamo detainees the “al-Qaeda Seven.

Ben Smith has a letter signed by a coalition of Republican legal mainstays, including Rivkin and Casey, denouncing Keep America Safe’s most recent ad, terming it “a shameful series of attacks” on people who upheld the “American tradition of zealous representation of unpopular clients [which] is at least as old as John Adams’s representation of the British soldiers charged in the Boston massacre.” Other signatories include, of all people, Cully Stimson, the Pentagon official in charge of detainee policy who resigned for exactly the same offense that the Cheneyites committed and the letter condemns. Yes, they’ve lost that guy.

26 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:30:25am

Oh there's iDub. Last one for tonight.

27 meehap  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:47:05am

re: #23 iceweasel

Sorry, let's try again

28 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 1:54:55am

re: #26 ArchangelMichael

Yay!

re: #27 meehap

Sorry, let's try again

Cheers. BTW, that wasn't a criticism; I've been posting lots of stuff here about those issues. Thanks for this link.

29 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:06:26am

re: #27 meehap

Sorry, let's try again

meehap-- not sourced as well as I'd like. Summarises a lot of stuff, mentions the Bradbury memos, doesn't provide links to hardly anything.

30 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 2:31:36am

meehap-- if you're still here-- I don't dispute anything in your link; on the contrary I could confirm much of it on the first reading from my own prior knowledge and googling helps me find some of the relevant gov docs.
Just an FYI: it's exceedingly difficult to get people here (or almost anywhere) to acknowledge the realities of the issue even when you give them links to the gov't pdfs.

31 Areozol  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:10:50am

I know it is a hardly news, but Glenn Beck is indeed an idiot:

Glenn Beck to Jesus: Drop Dead

32 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:10:54am

excellent quote
the wing nuts will of course be screaming that this is more proof of charles hating america ,but when charles sneezes they say it's because he hates america...

33 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:13:56am

re: #31 Areozol

I know it is a hardly news, but Glenn Beck is indeed an idiot:

Glenn Beck to Jesus: Drop Dead

Excellent.

Social justice is communism! as gus802 said earlier.

34 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:18:08am

re: #31 Areozol

y'know,i would love to click the link,but comsidering that it's gb,i fear i'll get stupider by just watching it....lol

35 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:23:47am

re: #34 Boondock St. Bender

y'know,i would love to click the link,but comsidering that it's gb,i fear i'll get stupider by just watching it...lol

It's to a HuffPo article, and I just did a little digging on the author-- the piece was originally posted at 'america magiazine', and I'm not familiar with it or the author, but the author is a Jesuit and this is the end of the piece:

The attack on social justice is the tack of those who wish to ignore the concerns the poor and ignore the social structures that foster poverty. It's not hard to see why people are tempted to do so. How much easier it would be if we didn't have to worry about the poor!

But ignoring the poor, and ignoring what keeps them poor, is, quite simply, unchristian. For the poor are the church in many ways. When St. Lawrence, in the fourth century, was ordered by the prefect of Rome to turn over the wealth of the church, he presented to him the poor.

Glenn Beck's desire to detach social justice from the Gospel is a move to detach care for the poor from the Gospel. But a church without the poor, and a church without a desire for a just social world for all, is not the church.

At least not the church of Jesus Christ. Who was, by the way, poor.

The Rev. James Martin, SJ is the author of The Jesuit Guide to (Almost) Everything. A longer version of this post can be found at America magazine's blog "In All Things."

It looks like a catholic-informed respectable attack on gb's notions, which primarily argues that gb doesn't understand christianity or catholics-- I think the catholics and christians here as well as others would agree.

36 Areozol  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:23:50am

re: #34 Boondock St. Bender

y'know,i would love to click the link,but comsidering that it's gb,i fear i'll get stupider by just watching it...lol

It is just a Op-Ed by revered Jesuit, who is pointing out on social teachings of Catholic Church.

37 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:28:38am

re: #35 iceweasel

re: #36 Areozol

ooohhh it's about gb got it now(apparently just the mention of the guys name makes me stupider....lol) thanks

38 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:32:12am

re: #37 Boondock St. Bender

re: #36 Areozol

ooohhh it's about gb got it now(apparently just the mention of the guys name makes me stupider...lol) thanks

Looks totally legit too. That is, something that the catholics and the christians here would endorse as well as the rest of us w/r/t beck distorting the meaning of social justice.

i liked it. Didn't know the guy or america magazine but it looks ok, and in any case the piece linked by Areozol is imo very good, and the religious and non-religious here would imo agree with it.

39 Spockista  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:33:58am

How can social justice be equated with "Nazism"?.
The Communist thing I can understand as Marx/Engel were inspired by social justice in creating an equal life for the very very poor of the 19th century as a bases of Marx's Communist Manifesto.

BUT NAZISM?

Do these wingnuts even know and understand the labels political ideologies they toss around like pizza dough?

Especially the "Nazi" label, they are actually lessening the tragedies Hitler and his Reich caused by doing this.

40 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:34:19am

wow very good ...a well reasoned retort.
thanks for linking.

41 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:36:56am

re: #39 Spockista

How can social justice be equated with "Nazism"?.
The Communist thing I can understand as Marx/Engel were inspired by social justice in creating an equal life for the very very poor of the 19th century as a bases of Marx's Communist Manifesto.

BUT NAZISM?

Do these wingnuts even know and understand the labels political ideologies they toss around like pizza dough?

Especially the "Nazi" label, they are actually lessening the tragedies Hitler and his Reich caused by doing this.

They don't understand. Blame Jonah Goldberg and his book "Liberal Fascism" for making it mainstream, but it was around before that.

42 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:37:57am

re: #39 Spockista

one of the big right-wing nut meme's they are pushing is that the nazi's were not right wing,but left.They are seeking to disassociate(rush was one of the first that i heard of preaching this pseodo iniellectual arguement)right wing nationalism from any historical black marks.

43 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:38:33am

Morning...


44 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:39:33am

"of course the nazi's were lefties,national SOCIALISM it's right in the name people!!!!111!!eleventy!"

/

45 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:41:18am

Morning folks

46 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:42:16am

re: #43 Cannadian Club Akbar

re: #45 RogueOne

morning! hot joe is in the pot....

47 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:43:49am

re: #46 Boondock St. Bender

re: #45 RogueOne

morning! hot joe is in the pot...

With your last name being "Bender," it best be Irish.
//

48 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:44:35am

re: #47 Cannadian Club Akbar

With your last name being "Bender," it best be Irish.
//

No, his last name is "Lecter".
/;)

49 Spockista  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:44:57am

re: #41 iceweasel

I also cannot stand this McCarthy era attack on the word "Communist"

If you have read Marx/Engel and honestly disagree, that is an informed opinion.

But to attack a theory based on slogans is ignorant.

50 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:46:39am

re: #49 Spockista

I also cannot stand this McCarthy era attack on the word "Communist"

If you have read Marx/Engel and honestly disagree, that is an informed opinion.

But to attack a theory based on slogans is ignorant.


How about attacking a theory based on implementation and legacy? Is that acceptable?

51 Spockista  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:47:10am

re: #44 Boondock St. Bender

"of course the nazi's were lefties,national SOCIALISM it's right in the name people!!!111!!eleventy!"

/

I remember when they were trying to label the Holocaust Museum shooter a "leftist".

Yeah, one of Willis Carto's Liberty Lobby's gang is a "leftist"...

52 Spockista  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:47:39am

re: #50 RogueOne

have you read Marx/Engel?

53 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:48:03am

the fundemental difference b'tween the commies and nazi's (usually ignored by these characters was
communists did away with private property.the state owned everything(including you.)the soviets did away with about 30 million of their own citizens implimenting this policy in the 20'sand 30's alone.
the nazi's were more than happy to allow capitalism to flourish as long the the owners of these industries were willing to play ball.(which many were all to willing to do.)

54 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:49:00am

Humans are incapable of implementing any form of communism that isn't frakked up. It's just our nature.

55 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:49:22am

re: #47 Cannadian Club Akbar


c'mon the boondock st. part should have given that away....lol

56 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:50:57am

re: #52 Spockista

have you read Marx/Engel?

We're really not going to have the argument that communism isn't bad and that it's never really been tried in it's pure form are we? If so, I'm going to need aspirin since my head already hurts and I'm guessing your argument is just going to make it worse.

57 Spockista  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:51:47am

re: #53 Boondock St. Bender

the fundemental difference b'tween the commies and nazi's (usually ignored by these characters was
communists did away with private property.the state owned everything(including you.)the soviets did away with about 30 million of their own citizens implimenting this policy in the 20'sand 30's alone.
the nazi's were more than happy to allow capitalism to flourish as long the the owners of these industries were willing to play ball.(which many were all to willing to do.)

That is the one aspect of Marx's Manifesto I disagree with, the taking away of persona property.

It was sort of understandable how he came up with these theories at the time of such a split between have and have nots, but it's reactionary and not productive.

Instead of elevating the populous it brings all down to a level of poverty.

This is why I am more of a fan of Emma Goldman and Alexander Beckman.

58 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:51:56am

re: #1 SteveMcG

I have a story, and I'd like to see if the class can figure out the moral...So what's the moral of the story?

Pay your damn bills, lest your job fall vacant?

59 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:53:46am

re: #49 Spockista

Alot of folks associate communism as it was practiced by the soviets and the chinese(not to mention the khmere rouge)
(a system that results in govts. killing over 55 million of their own citizens is gonna get some pretty bad press.)
I'm sure marx did not envision that kind of application of his theories.

60 Spockista  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:54:42am

re: #56 RogueOne

I will take that as a "no".

All political theories should be studied in high school. All ids should read both Marx and Rand, study all forms of economics and make informed opinions.

Our American school system has declined.

61 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:55:06am

I thought it was "Boondock Saint Bender".

I thought you had canonized "Bender" from Futurama.

Didn't get the "Boondock" part, but seriously;
Boondock Street? Not Saint Bender?

Well, raise my rent.

62 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:55:24am

re: #60 Spockista

I will take that as a "no".

All political theories should be studied in high school. All ids should read both Marx and Rand, study all forms of economics and make informed opinions.

Our American school system has declined.

I can tell.

63 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:55:41am

re: #51 Spockista

I remember when they were trying to label the Holocaust Museum shooter a "leftist".

Yeah, one of Willis Carto's Liberty Lobby's gang is a "leftist"...

Hey spockista,
I'm a fan of yours and went through yesterday's overnight updinging you. Share many of your views.
Little (unwanted, probably) advice:
be advised that the 4-7 am shift PST here is the bitching hours, because people presume charles is asleep. It's the AM wingnut wave.
It is traditional here to celebrate the rising of the sun with the ritual beating of a liberal. hence the attacks yesterday.

Also be advised that Rogue One is not a wingnut.

64 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:56:13am

re: #60 Spockista

I will take that as a "no".

All political theories should be studied in high school. All ids should read both Marx and Rand, study all forms of economics and make informed opinions.

Our American school system has declined.

I had "Americanism VS. Communism" in high school. Required class. Many years ago.

65 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:56:25am

re: #63 iceweasel

Hey spockista,
I'm a fan of yours and went through yesterday's overnight updinging you. Share many of your views.
Little (unwanted, probably) advice:
be advised that the 4-7 am shift PST here is the bitching hours, because people presume charles is asleep. It's the AM wingnut wave.
It is traditional here to celebrate the rising of the sun with the ritual beating of a liberal. hence the attacks yesterday.

Also be advised that Rogue One is not a wingnut.

I feel left out...:(


:P

66 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:57:01am

re: #61 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I thought it was "Boondock Saint Bender".

I thought you had canonized "Bender" from Futurama.

Didn't get the "Boondock" part, but seriously;
Boondock Street? Not Saint Bender?

Well, raise my rent.

Boondock Saints, the movie, I presume.

67 TampaKnight  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:57:20am

I'd be happy if high schools simply taught what the hell capitalism is. A local survey of high school kids in Tampa revealed that over 60% of them couldn't accurately describe it.

68 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:57:45am

re: #57 Spockista

the biggest problem with many of the utopian systems is that they call for people to act against their nature.(and call for selfless political leadership that has yet to evolve)

69 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:58:02am

re: #65 Varek Raith

I feel left out...:(

:P

What, need a beating? :p

70 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:58:27am

re: #47 Cannadian Club Akbar

With your last name being "Bender," it best be Irish.
//

Speaking of Irish....

Flogging Molly put on a great show. They are a lot of fun if you ever get the chance to go see them:

71 Spockista  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:59:01am

re: #59 Boondock St. Bender

You are probably correct. Stalin was so bad he disgusted Communists from all over the world, and then Mao sent it over the edge.

Marx was on a quest for equality, some would see it as unrealistic idealistic, but it has inspired the "weekend", Medicare, the rights to public education, and social security, these are all good things.

I don't think Marx was based in reality, he was very wrapped in deep theory which is reflected in his thick writing style.

72 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 3:59:43am

re: #60 Spockista

I will take that as a "no".

All political theories should be studied in high school. All ids should read both Marx and Rand, study all forms of economics and make informed opinions.

Our American school system has declined.

Rand? ....

73 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:00:12am

re: #61 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Duh... I had read a previous comment of your incorrectly BSB...

Carry on...

74 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:00:30am

re: #61 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

you had it...bondock saint from the movie of the same name,and of course my favorite drunken robot bender from futureama

75 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:00:31am

re: #72 iceweasel

Rand? ...

Where?! *Lobs grenades indiscriminately*
/

76 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:01:05am

re: #65 Varek Raith

I feel left out...:(

:P

re: #69 iceweasel

What, need a beating? :p

re: #70 RogueOne

Flogging Molly put on a great show.


Do we need to get Flogging Molly and Varek together? :)

77 Spockista  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:01:27am

re: #63 iceweasel

I am not saying he is a wingnut, just trying to recommend reading for an informed opine.

I am sorry if it came off that way, pixels can be deceiving, I was just joining int he discussion about "Nationalism" which is what the collective I work with does report on.

78 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:02:48am

re: #74 Boondock St. Bender

I feel silly "In my brain it was Saint Bender", whom I would support fully for beautification.

79 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:03:18am

re: #77 Spockista

I am not saying he is a wingnut, just trying to recommend reading for an informed opine.

I am sorry if it came off that way, pixels can be deceiving, I was just joining int he discussion about "Nationalism" which is what the collective I work with does report on.

OPP, right? (I thought?)
Just saying that the am threads are bumpy. Rogue is cool and wouldn't be a dick or pretend offense where none was intended.

80 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:03:32am

re: #71 Spockista

i guess it's one of history's little jokes that communism would be attempted in two large nations not known for their commitment to individual endevor.

81 Spockista  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:03:39am

re: #72 iceweasel

Rand? ...

Rand is the other extreme side to Marx.

Reading both gives one a fairer balance, in my opine.

82 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:04:17am

re: #79 iceweasel

I'm sensitive.

I'm running behind this morning, I'll BBIAB.

83 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:05:14am

re: #78 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

hear!hear! anyone who bests the robot devil gets my vote!

84 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:06:08am

re: #63 iceweasel

re: #71 Spockista

What percentage Socialist would you guys consider yourselves?

I'm not being snarky, I'm just trying to understand where y'all are coming from.

85 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:07:00am

re: #83 Boondock St. Bender

hear!hear! anyone who bests the robot devil gets my vote!

Just noticed your avatar, Spike!
:)

86 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:07:57am

re: #81 Spockista

i've always been an advocate for studying all sides of political thought.
(i actually read mein kamph to get insight into the mind of a mad man...ugh long painful boring read...)

87 Spockista  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:08:39am

re: #84 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

re: #71 Spockista

What percentage Socialist would you guys consider yourselves?

I'm not being snarky, I'm just trying to understand where y'all are coming from.

I'm an Alexander Berkman fan.

88 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:09:13am

re: #84 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Just a percentage... I am not asking for your personal Manifestos.

89 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:09:25am

re: #85 Varek Raith

love bebop!
(keanu reeves better not fuck up playing spike!!!!)

90 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:09:58am

re: #87 Spockista

So, Anarchist; not Socialist?

91 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:10:08am

re: #88 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Just a percentage... I am not asking for your personal Manifestos.

I wrote a manifesto about how manifestos suck.
/

92 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:10:10am

re: #89 Boondock St. Bender

love bebop!
(keanu reeves better not fuck up playing spike!!!)

You ask a lot, young Jedi. I do not know if this is possible.

93 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:10:45am

re: #89 Boondock St. Bender

love bebop!
(keanu reeves better not fuck up playing spike!!!)

ZOMG, I didn't know they were making a live-action!!!!

94 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:11:16am

re: #88 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Just a percentage... I am not asking for your personal Manifestos.

America, like all western nations, is not a purely capitaliist society FBV.
I can't possibly give you a percantage here. Not being snarky.

95 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:11:57am

re: #91 Cannadian Club Akbar

I wrote a manifesto about how manifestos suck.
/

How long was it? Mine was five words. "Manifesto's Suck, including this one!"

96 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:12:58am

re: #95 Varek Raith

How long was it? Mine was five words. "Manifesto's Suck, including this one!"

Mine was eight words. "Manifestos suck! Including this one! Your's sucked too!"

97 Spockista  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:13:14am

re: #86 Boondock St. Bender

I think people should read everything. I have read the Turner Diaries to understand the racist loonies we write up on and go after.

Now THAT is a read based in complete stupid....I also read the Satanic Bible, which was kind of funny, but there are a good handful of white power morons who are into that as well...

98 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:13:17am

re: #95 Varek Raith

How long was it? Mine was five words. "Manifesto's Suck, including this one!"

In case of fire, throw this in!

99 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:13:47am

re: #95 Varek Raith

How long was it? Mine was five words. "Manifesto's Suck, including this one!"

Mine said, "Manifestos suck, including Varek's!!" 4.
///

100 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:14:51am

re: #88 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Just a percentage... I am not asking for your personal Manifestos.

What % wingnut, are you FBV?

101 Spockista  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:15:32am

re: #90 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

So, Anarchist; not Socialist?

Well, Berkman stated that humanity would not be able to handle a society based sans of overt authority without an in between phase of socialism.

I would be happy with a european style of socialism right now.

102 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:15:35am

Oh fuck. An Anarchist with high speed internet.

Where's Cato? Is that irony?

103 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:15:57am

re: #100 Jimmah

I'd like to think about 15%.

104 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:16:28am
Science and critical thinking can be seen as exclusive and elitist. But now a new group is aiming to bring scepticism to the masses across Scotland.

The audience sits attentively, absorbing every word.

The speaker, a visiting doctor of particle physics, is discussing the effects of libel laws on science publishing.

But this isn't a university lecture hall or a scientific institution - it's a crowded pub on a Tuesday night in Glasgow city centre.

The organisers of Glasgow Skeptics in the Pub have been arranging monthly meetings since November last year.

Each event features a guest speaker addressing issues related to science, rationalism and critical thinking.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

105 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:17:20am

re: #92 SteveC

re: #93 Varek Raith

yeah,,,,keanu is a little long in the tooth for spike(spike is around 27.but he is a huge bebop fan and was a driving force to make the movie...hope springs eternal...(i think the guy from burn notice,or the young guy from white collar would be a good choice for spike)

106 Spockista  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:17:24am

re: #102 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh fuck. An Anarchist with high speed internet.

Where's Cato? Is that irony?

We are not all kids in black hoodies living in parking garages.

Chomsky I am sure lives better than I do...

107 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:17:45am

re: #103 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'd like to think about 15%.

You need to lose that. FDA recommends no more than 0.7% wingnut per person.

108 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:17:51am

re: #102 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Is that irony?

*puts on CSI Jacket, collects sample*

I'll know more after I get it back to the lab. :)

109 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:18:41am

re: #105 Boondock St. Bender

re: #93 Varek Raith

yeah,,,keanu is a little long in the tooth for spike(spike is around 27.but he is a huge bebop fan and was a driving force to make the movie...hope springs eternal...(i think the guy from burn notice,or the young guy from white collar would be a good choice for spike)

Neat, I didn't know that about Reeves.

110 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:19:01am

re: #97 Spockista

it takes all kinds...lol it is amazing the length and breadth of political thought.(or lack thereof)

111 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:21:43am

re: #107 Jimmah

My wing-nut tendencies are couched not giving civil liberties to terrorists, a rabid support of the application of the death penalty (where applicable), immigration, and the prosecution of the WOT.

I'm sure there are a few lesser things, but those are my "wing-nuttiest" tendencies.

112 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:22:13am

re: #107 Jimmah

You need to lose that. FDA recommends no more than 0.7% wingnut per person.

I'm certain FBV was overestimating there!

113 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:22:35am

re: #109 Varek Raith

jason statham or bruce willis as jet?(what do you think?)

114 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:22:46am

re: #105 Boondock St. Bender

He has a lot of spare time. Lord knows he doesn't spend much time on character development.

115 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:23:01am

re: #112 iceweasel

Not really.

116 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:23:24am

re: #111 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My wing-nut tendencies are couched not giving civil liberties to terrorists, a rabid support of the application of the death penalty (where applicable), immigration, and the prosecution of the WOT.

I'm sure there are a few lesser things, but those are my "wing-nuttiest" tendencies.

You're not a wingnut at all, imo. Don't agree with you on lots of stuff, but in no way are you a wingnut.

117 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:23:42am

re: #114 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

yeah that is true...lol

118 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:23:50am

re: #116 iceweasel

Tendencies...

119 Spockista  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:24:42am

re: #110 Boondock St. Bender

Yeah, well, these guys can get dangerous, I like to think our reporting on them has helped society some how.

I have also been successful at "pulling" one out of the white power scene.

He is now married with a baby, and has gone on with his life...sometimes it just takes an open ear to listen to these crazies and try to open up a dialogue, when they realise an ethnic "Jew" is actually nicer to them than their white power buddies they can hopefully see the good in the humanity they are trying to target for all their ills.

120 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:25:31am
Jerry Coyne gets email

Coyne was quoted in this article on homeschooling, which brought in an unexpected surge of email, including some rather nasty words from the Christians. This doesn't surprise me at all; criticizing religion, especially the more far-out beliefs that are clearly unsupportable and in contradiction to all of the evidence, is always a reliable trigger to start some kooks spewing.

Homeschooling is another trigger. People care very much about their kids, and so telling them that they're wrecking their children's future by giving them a substandard education poisoned with a falsified ideology is not the kind of thing that will get you pleasant nods of approval…even if it is true. I'm one of those people who thinks we ought to be consistent and require everyone to attend an accredited school, public or private, and that private schools ought also to be required to meet certain secular standards, such as that their science education ought to address the evidence reasonably. You want to send your kids to a school that teaches them all about Jesus? Fine. But it doesn't count as a legitimate education unless it also teaches the basics of science, math, history, English, etc. in a way that meets state education standards.

It's the same principle that warrants requiring vaccinations for all children: for the defense of our society.

[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

121 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:26:39am

re: #106 Spockista

We are not all kids in black hoodies living in parking garages.

Chomsky I am sure lives better than I do...

Are there any Anarchists over the age of 40 who don't make a shitload of money off of Anarchists?

I really don't know.

122 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:27:33am

re: #119 Spockista

true,we all have much more in common than we have differences.If only some could put aside their anger an see it.

123 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:29:02am

re: #112 iceweasel

I'm certain FBV was overestimating there!

Good to know!

124 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:29:11am

Blow by post. Woke up with this song in my head...

I Like To Sleep Late In THe Morning
Don't like to wear no shoes
Make love to the women, when they're willing
And get drunk from a bottle of booze.

...yeah

125 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:29:24am

I know nothing about Anarchy (not gonna start studying it either) but I can imagine that Anarchists find people with patriotic fervor as "SuperRubes".

126 Spockista  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:29:32am

re: #121 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Are there any Anarchists over the age of 40 who don't make a shitload of money off of Anarchists?

I really don't know.

Yeah, there are, small unique but hardy bunch.

My favorite line to those in the rank and file left are "you fight for Stalin WE fight for freedom", it's a line from a silly song, but it really does sum things up.

127 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:30:59am

re: #126 Spockista


How old are you? If I may ask.

128 Spockista  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:31:09am

re: #125 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I know nothing about Anarchy (not gonna start studying it either) but I can imagine that Anarchists find people with patriotic fervor as "SuperRubes".

To sum it up quickly ( and this is quick in lefty terms)

[Link: www.lucyparsonsproject.org...]

129 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:31:10am

re: #125 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I think it depends on the flavor of anarchist.

130 Spockista  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:33:43am

re: #127 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

How old are you? If I may ask.

I am going to keep that under wraps, not because of anyone here, but because of what I do.

I do a lot of the research which has squashed a lot of bad people.

You understand...

131 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:35:06am
132 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:36:32am

re: #128 Spockista

Sorry... read for a bit, thought, well, that's stupid; and closed out the page.

There seems to be a groundswell of "naive" around here.

133 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:36:38am

re: #120 Jimmah

[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

Coyne was quoted in this article on homeschooling, which brought in an unexpected surge of email, including some rather nasty words from the Christians.

For a while all the "holier than thou" citizens around here were homeschooling, because of the evil of the public schools mixed with a good dose of There's no telling what they are teaching our children!!!

Haven't heard much about homeschooling lately; I guess that the parents found out that it's just a little bit harder than they expected. The Christian Schools in the area (Some are really good!) seem to be benefiting, though.

134 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:36:56am

re: #130 Spockista

mmm hmm.

135 Spockista  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:38:19am

re: #134 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

mmm hmm.

You read about Marcus Epstein....

136 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:38:28am

re: #132 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sorry... read for a bit, thought, well, that's stupid; and closed out the page.

There seems to be a groundswell of "naive" around here.

My thoughts as well.
:shrugs:

137 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:39:12am

re: #130 Spockista

we also need to see many of these political systems in the light of when they were conceived.(the mid to late 1800's)It's no wonder a better system was sought.(in a word at that time life sucked...working/living conditions were abysmal.)I would like to think that things are much better today than then(and they are)

138 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:40:47am

gotta bring the lil boondock saints to school ...brb.

139 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:42:09am

re: #137 Boondock St. Bender

Other than Chomsky the only people I see quoted by Anarchists are from the turn of the century.

And not the turn of this century.

Of course I went to a tea party function (what's the buzz, tell me what's a happening) and ran out of fingers counting quotes from the 1700s.

140 Spockista  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:42:12am

re: #137 Boondock St. Bender

we also need to see many of these political systems in the light of when they were conceived.(the mid to late 1800's)It's no wonder a better system was sought.(in a word at that time life sucked...working/living conditions were abysmal.)I would like to think that things are much better today than then(and they are)

I think I stated that in one of my posts, about Marx being thicker on theory than reality.

But, they are ideals, ideals that can help make society better when practiced on an certain levels, like the principles of Secular Humanism.

141 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:43:03am

re: #135 Spockista

Oh! Sorry Marcus! Didn't know that was you! Wanna go beat some fags and blacks with me?

*spit*

142 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:43:30am

*walks away shaking his head*

143 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:44:10am

re: #125 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I know nothing about Anarchy (not gonna start studying it either) but I can imagine that Anarchists find people with patriotic fervor as "SuperRubes".

Some would say the same thing about Progs.

144 Spockista  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:44:40am

re: #139 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

A lot of misquotes too!

I think we can take from a lot of theories and apply them well to our own lives and how we choose to live it.

145 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:45:17am

re: #133 SteveC

For a while all the "holier than thou" citizens around here were homeschooling, because of the evil of the public schools mixed with a good dose of There's no telling what they are teaching our children!!!

Haven't heard much about homeschooling lately; I guess that the parents found out that it's just a little bit harder than they expected. The Christian Schools in the area (Some are really good!) seem to be benefiting, though.

Although most wouldn't go as far as the Phelps family and actually say "God hates America", a lot of these people really view the prevailing culture of their own country as a contaminant. 'Do you want your children to be part of the culture of Sodom and Gomorrah that has overtaken this one beautiful country - or would you rather they were kept separate, clean, strong?'

146 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:45:41am

re: #126 Spockista

Yeah, there are, small unique but hardy bunch.

My favorite line to those in the rank and file left are "you fight for Stalin WE fight for freedom", it's a line from a silly song, but it really does sum things up.

Whenever I think of anarchism, I think of the 1920 Wall Street bombing. That, and metalhead kids spraypainting "circle A" on dumpsters.

147 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:45:53am

re: #143 MandyManners

Some would say the same thing about Progs.

What's a 'Prog'?

148 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:46:16am

re: #139 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Other than Chomsky the only people I see quoted by Anarchists are from the turn of the century.

And not the turn of this century.

Of course I went to a tea party function (what's the buzz, tell me what's a happening) and ran out of fingers counting quotes from the 1700s.

Nasty bastards, those who founded this nation.

149 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:46:32am

re: #147 iceweasel

What's a 'Prog'?

According to my younger brother, awesome rock.
:)

150 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:47:19am

re: #149 Varek Raith

According to my younger brother, awesome rock.
:)

Yes, precious. Some hates it, they does. :)

151 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:47:24am

re: #1 SteveMcG

The moral is, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

152 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:48:03am

Asia is “missing” about 96 million women - the vast majority in China and India - who died from discriminatory health care and neglect or who were never born at all, the UN estimated Monday.

Female infanticide and sex-selective abortion have caused a severe gender imbalance in Asia, and the problem is worsening despite rapid economic growth in the region, a United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) report said.

“The old mindset with its preference for male children has now combined with modern medical technology” that makes it easier to predict and abort unborn girls, said Anuradha Rajivan, the report’s lead author.

SNIP

153 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:48:33am

lol.

154 Spockista  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:49:00am

re: #141 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh! Sorry Marcus! Didn't know that was you! Wanna go beat some fags and blacks with me?

*spit*

LOL! No, I was part of the team that exposed that story...Marcus is a slime.

What gets to me is how was that guy the executive director of 2 major PACs for years after doing what he did.

But, there was more, he also got into trouble in college by getting drunk, stealing from a 7-11 and assaulting the female clerk in the store.

Ended up being found by the police in a ladies room of a William and Mary sorority house with stolen cookie crumbs on his face!

I kid you not!

The things one can find at the courthouse in Richmond Va...LOL!

155 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:49:00am

re: #145 Jimmah

Although most wouldn't go as far as the Phelps family and actually say "God hates America", a lot of these people really view the prevailing culture of their own country as a contaminant. 'Do you want your children to be part of the culture of Sodom and Gomorrah that has overtaken this one beautiful country - or would you rather they were kept separate, clean, strong?'

My best guess is about half of them feel this way. The other half are just jumping on the bandwagon.

Next week/month/year they'll be on to something else.

156 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:49:36am

re: #152 MandyManners

I posted that yesterday (the International Day of the Woman)... was met the a gigantic Yawn.

157 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:49:46am

re: #147 iceweasel

What's a 'Prog'?

I checked on the nut-o-sphere - seems it's right wing nutjob-speak for 'person of a left wing persuasion'.

158 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:49:50am

re: #155 SteveC

My best guess is about half of them feel this way. The other half are just jumping on the bandwagon.

Next week/month/year they'll be on to something else.


Someone, give 'em some weed!

159 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:50:54am

re: #157 Jimmah

I checked on the nut-o-sphere - seems it's right wing nutjob-speak for 'person of a left wing persuasion'.

I believe they think it means "person who voted for Obama".

even more lulz.

160 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:50:56am

Shock and frustration continued to flow among student-athletes yesterday at Point Loma Nazarene University, where about 100 marched in protest of the school’s recent decision to eliminate four sports programs.

Some carried signs that said “Title IX sucks” and “Save our sports.” Others said federal gender equity regulations “backfired” on them and called it “reverse discrimination” against male sports.

“It’s supposed to be equal rights, but they’re taking away our right to play, so it’s not very equal,” said Kira Wommer, a senior softball player. “It backfired.”

On Sunday, the school notified the men’s golf, men’s track, men’s cross country and women’s softball teams that they were going to be eliminated next year to resolve issues related to Title IX, the law that prohibits sex discrimination at federally funded institutions. The decision took most athletes by surprise. Now many are looking to leave for other colleges to continue their athletic careers


SNIP

161 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:51:37am

re: #155 SteveC

My best guess is about half of them feel this way. The other half are just jumping on the bandwagon.

Next week/month/year they'll be on to something else.

Yep, I reckon so too.

162 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:52:08am

re: #154 Spockista
Sorry. Anarchists set my "Cognitive Dissonance" bells a-clanging.

163 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:52:20am

re: #157 Jimmah

I checked on the nut-o-sphere - seems it's right wing nutjob-speak for 'person of a left wing persuasion'.

I use it frequently, though with two 'g's.

164 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:52:57am

A police department is standing by its decision not to make public a controversial intelligence report about abortion protesters.

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security prepared the "threat assessment" and shared copies with the Middleton Police Department and the Wisconsin Department of Justice.

DHS acknowledged the review was improper because it contained information about protesters who posed no threat to homeland security, and destroyed its copies.

SNIP

165 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:53:00am

re: #155 SteveC

My best guess is about half of them feel this way. The other half are just jumping on the bandwagon.

Next week/month/year they'll be on to something else.

Same thing happened with Promise Keepers last decade.

166 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:53:19am

re: #160 MandyManners

We're from the Government, we're here to help you.

167 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:54:11am

Heh, so...Can I refer to conservatives as "cons"? I only mean to use it as short hand!
I can play this childish game too!
;)

168 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:54:26am

Good Morning LGF.

169 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:55:10am

re: #168 Spare O'Lake

oh, fuck you.
/

170 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:56:03am

re: #169 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

oh, fuck you.
/

Mwah!

171 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:57:00am

re: #169 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

oh, fuck you.
/

Quck, the beast needs cake!
/

172 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:57:12am

re: #167 Varek Raith

Heh, so...Can I refer to conservatives as "cons"? I only mean to use it as short hand!
I can play this childish game too!
;)

Only if we capitalise it!

It looks So old-Timey and Constitutional that Way.

I think it's a fabulous idea. At least as fabulous as referring to Progs. I guess referring to Cons is cool now.

173 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:57:22am

re: #167 Varek Raith

Heh, so...Can I refer to conservatives as "cons"? I only mean to use it as short hand!
I can play this childish game too!
;)

"A second flood, a simple famine, plagues of locusts everywhere, or a cataclysmic earthquake, I'd accept with some despair. But no, You sent us Congress! Good God, Sir, was that fair?" - John Adams, 1776

174 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:57:23am

re: #171 Varek Raith

Quick, the beast needs cake!
/

Sigh.

175 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:57:34am

re: #170 Spare O'Lake

How you doin'?

My spidey senses are tingly.

176 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:57:50am

re: #173 SteveC

"A second flood, a simple famine, plagues of locusts everywhere, or a cataclysmic earthquake, I'd accept with some despair. But no, You sent us Congress! Good God, Sir, was that fair?" - John Adams, 1776

Ha! I like that one!

177 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:57:52am

re: #171 Varek Raith

Quck, the beast needs cake!
/

Pie works, too.

178 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:58:05am

The worst enemy of life, freedom and the common decencies is total anarchy; their second worst enemy is total efficiency.
-- Aldous Huxley, Adonis and the Alphabet, 1956

179 Spockista  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:58:34am

re: #162 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Sorry. Anarchists set my "Cognitive Dissonance" bells a-clanging.

That's okay, I deal with people who have the same reaction to Jews, blacks and others...I am pretty good at proving preconceived opinions wrong.

To be an anarchist is to be one's self, it's not to hurt but help.

180 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:59:00am

Check out this lovely snow-woman before and after a visit from the piety police.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

Gotta dash - stuff to do - BBL.

181 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:59:01am

re: #167 Varek Raith

Heh, so...Can I refer to conservatives as "cons"? I only mean to use it as short hand!
I can play this childish game too!
;)

Have at it; we're called worse every day.

182 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:59:22am

re: #179 Spockista

I'm...confused by the meaning of your posts...
Hmmm...

183 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:59:46am
184 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:59:54am

re: #182 Varek Raith

Dude... my mind is a whirling ... oh, never mind.

185 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:00:12am

re: #181 The Sanity Inspector

Have at it; we're called worse every day.

Nah, just being annoying, I am.
You're alright.
:)

186 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:01:01am

re: #169 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

oh, fuck you.
/

You cool, considerate men. You hang to the rear on every issue so that if we should go under, you'll still remain afloat! - John Adams

Are you calling me a coward? - John Dickinson

Yes.. Coward! - Adams

Madman! - Dickinson

Landlord! - Adams

LAWYER! - Dickinson

187 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:01:08am

Gonna go shower.

Cause I ain't a dirty hippie.

188 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:01:27am

re: #179 Spockista

That's okay, I deal with people who have the same reaction to Jews, blacks and others...I am pretty good at proving preconceived opinions wrong.

To be an anarchist is to be one's self, it's not to hurt but help.

Cheap shot.

189 Spockista  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:01:44am

Well, I have to figure how to draw out plans for an abstract wire sculpture...*sigh*...I should have started with copper...

Peace OUT!

190 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:02:11am

re: #159 iceweasel

I believe they think it means "person who voted for Obama".

even more lulz.

No, it predates that. In my experience, it's from back when liberals started distancing themselves from the collateral stink that had enveloped the word, "liberal", searching for a better sounding euphemism.

191 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:03:56am

re: #187 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Gonna go shower.

Cause I ain't a dirty hippie.

Hail to the Chief 'cause he's the one in power;
he's in charge because he spends time in the shower...

(From the movie Dave, sung to the tune of Hail to the Chief)

192 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:06:01am

re: #175 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

How you doin'?

My spidey senses are tingly.

Just scrolled through the thread and I can see why.
*looks around shiftily*

193 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:06:14am

re: #190 The Sanity Inspector

I recall it being part of the political discourse at least twenty years ago, though it would have been around longer then that. It's just when I started paying any attention to politics.

194 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:06:34am

re: #192 Spare O'Lake

BOOGA!

195 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:07:20am

Another successful GAZE performed.

196 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:07:42am

?

197 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:08:21am

re: #191 SteveC

Hail to the Chief 'cause he's the one in power;
he's in charge because he spends time in the shower...

(From the movie Dave, sung to the tune of Hail to the Chief)

Her dress in the shower scene is to die for!

198 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:08:53am

re: #193 Jadespring

I recall it being part of the political discourse at least twenty years ago, though it would have been around longer then that. It's just when I started paying any attention to politics.

Of course. My comment is about those who just discovered the notion, and like to refer to Obama-voters (LOL!) as "Progs".

They're idiots and Cons.

199 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:09:52am

re: #198 iceweasel

Of course. My comment is about those who just discovered the notion, and like to refer to Obama-voters (LOL!) as "Progs".

They're idiots and Cons.

Good thing my philosophy is already four letters!
S.I.T.H.
:)

200 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:10:17am

re: #198 iceweasel

Of course. My comment is about those who just discovered the notion, and like to refer to Obama-voters (LOL!) as "Progs".

They're idiots and Cons.

Heck at that time the right wing party up here was called "Progressive Conservatives"

201 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:11:00am

re: #199 Varek Raith

Good thing my philosophy is already four letters!
S.I.T.H.
:)

Sit In The Hall?

202 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:11:22am

re: #200 Jadespring

Heck at that time the right wing party up here was called "Progressive Conservatives"

Oxymoron if I ever saw one...
/

203 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:12:14am

re: #201 SteveC

Sit In The Hall?

*Hurls Force Lightning at SteveC*
Strong in the Dark Side, I am.
:P

204 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:13:01am

Rep. Eric Massa (D-N.Y.) is taking some harsh parting shots at the White House on his way out of office.

Massa, who is stepping down amid allegations of sexual harrassment, said that Emanuel is a ruthless tactician who would "sell his mother" for a vote.

"Rahm Emanuel is son of the devil's spawn," Massa said in a radio interview. "He is an individual who would sell his mother to get a vote. He would strap his children to the front end of a steam locomotive."

SNIP

205 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:13:39am

re: #204 MandyManners

Rep. Eric Massa (D-N.Y.) is taking some harsh parting shots at the White House on his way out of office.

SNIP

Throw his grandmother under a bus?

Sorry, I had to say it. Good morning, Lizards.

206 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:14:02am

re: #194 MandyManners

BOOGA!

It's the skeeeriest time of the day.

207 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:15:21am

Massa sounds like a complete loon...
:shrugs:

208 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:15:28am

re: #205 thedopefishlives

Throw his grandmother under a bus?

Sorry, I had to say it. Good morning, Lizards.

He's a fucking thug.

209 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:15:56am

re: #206 Spare O'Lake

It's the skeeeriest time of the day.

Let it build your courage for the rest of the day!

210 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:17:15am

re: #208 MandyManners

He's a fucking thug.

Oh, I'm well aware. I used to live in Chicagoland and I know all about how politics is done down thataway. It makes Washington look like heaven.

211 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:17:32am

re: #208 MandyManners

He's a fucking thug.

So glad you think so. Looking forward to your posts condemning all the crap Massa will be spewing about the Dems today on Beck, and elsewhere later.

Most excellent.

212 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:18:22am

re: #211 iceweasel

So glad you think so. Looking forward to your posts condemning all the crap Massa will be spewing about the Dems today on Beck, and elsewhere later.

Most excellent.

Gonna be on Beck, is he? Yep, a loon.

213 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:18:23am

re: #202 Varek Raith

Oxymoron if I ever saw one...
/

Yeah, straight up it is. Really it was just short-hand for the idea that one could be socially progressive but also conservative, like in fiscally conservative and whatnot.

214 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:19:46am

re: #210 thedopefishlives

Oh, I'm well aware. I used to live in Chicagoland and I know all about how politics is done down thataway. It makes Washington look like heaven.

I lived there, too, but I was a wee one. I'll gladly take your word for it.

215 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:19:56am

*rolls eyes*

216 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:20:20am

re: #211 iceweasel

So glad you think so. Looking forward to your posts condemning all the crap Massa will be spewing about the Dems today on Beck, and elsewhere later.

Most excellent.

Dem on Dem makes me hot.

217 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:20:25am

re: #214 MandyManners

I lived there, too, but I was a wee one. I'll gladly take your word for it.

Something along the lines of the Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules. Unless the other guy has a bigger gun.

218 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:20:31am

re: #212 Varek Raith

Gonna be on Beck, is he? Yep, a loon.

For the full hour! Blaming Rahm, lying that the Dems forced him out for HCR-- a total lie, of course.
Yep. Fun!

219 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:20:35am

I guess the worst thing about equality merchants (Socialists, Communists, Anarchists [the first to come to mind]) IMO is that as soon as they rule the day, someone becomes "most Anarchy dude of all" and begins to rule.

By definition, those things end the day they begin.

I have to go to work. I work for Captialists. Who I really don't like, but at least they look you in the eye and tell you they don't like you back.

220 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:20:53am

*Shakes stick at bread*

221 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:20:56am

re: #219 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

And I had a typo. So, there.

222 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:21:03am

re: #216 Spare O'Lake

Dem on Dem makes me hot.

of course it does.

223 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:21:06am

re: #216 Spare O'Lake

Dem on Dem makes me hot.

Get a Room!

/ Some people!

224 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:22:18am

re: #217 thedopefishlives

Something along the lines of the Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules. Unless the other guy has a bigger gun.

Oh, so everything I need to know about life is in the movie The Man With the Golden Gun?

Cool!

225 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:23:44am

*raises brow*

226 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:23:55am

re: #215 MandyManners

*rolls eyes*

At who? Which comment? I like political debates/arguments.
:)

227 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:24:04am

re: #225 iceweasel

*raises brow*

Better than Pelosi can do.

228 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:24:34am

re: #218 iceweasel

For the full hour! Blaming Rahm, lying that the Dems forced him out for HCR-- a total lie, of course.
Yep. Fun!

I've always wondered - why do people think it's acceptable/honorable to resign in protest? If you so despise what is going on, why not stay and fight? "Resigning in protest" is just giving up and letting the Evil Minions of the Week have their way.

229 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:24:56am

re: #226 Varek Raith

At who? Which comment? I like political debates/arguments.
:)

Oh, that appears to be some involuntary reaction Mandy has quite often.

Poor thing. Perhaps it will be covered in her new health care.

230 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:25:30am

re: #218 iceweasel

For the full hour! Blaming Rahm, lying that the Dems forced him out for HCR-- a total lie, of course.
Yep. Fun!

Ice? Seriously, the first day it broke? He blamed Rush and Glenn's rhetoric driven shows.

I could've swore that I read that.

231 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:25:56am

re: #228 SteveC

I've always wondered - why do people think it's acceptable/honorable to resign in protest? If you so despise what is going on, why not stay and fight? "Resigning in protest" is just giving up and letting the Evil Minions of the Week have their way.

Well, Massa didn't resign in protest, of course.

232 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:26:07am

re: #227 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I wanna see some dings on that when I get back.

That's funny as hell!

Ciao.

233 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:26:49am

re: #223 SteveC

Get a Room!

/ Some people!

I think Dems gutting Dems is phase 1(a) of the American anarchist agenda.

234 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:27:25am

re: #230 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Ice? Seriously, the first day it broke? He blamed Rush and Glenn's rhetoric driven shows.

I could've swore that I read that.

How interesting that now he's going on them, with yet another story. Don't you think?

235 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:27:27am

re: #231 iceweasel

Well, Massa didn't resign in protest, of course.

True - sometimes thoughts jump in my head and I have to articulate them before they jump out!

Scatterbrained? No, where did you get - Oh, Cool! The Flyers won last night!

236 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:28:26am

re: #235 SteveC

Squirrel!

237 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:29:25am

Cool shipwreck find:[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

238 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:29:37am

I'm considering watching the show today. I may at least give it a whirl. Usually though I can only stand a few minutes of it before my brain starts melting and I turn the channel to Wife Swap.

239 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:30:03am

re: #237 prairiefire

Cool shipwreck find:[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Neat. First comment though,

Those wrecks are full of Swedish ice zombies just waiting to rise up and enslave us all. WE NEED TO NUKE THEM NOW!


XD

240 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:30:03am

re: #236 Varek Raith

Squirrel!

I don't care what you say I am not schizophr-
Yes you are.
Am not! Now be quiet, I'm trying to talk to these nice people!

241 Only The Lurker Knows  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:30:59am

Morning all. Being in the lazy mode. Is there anything downstairs or in this thread I should take a look at?

/ while I violate the BH II rule

242 reine.de.tout  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:33:47am

re: #241 Bubblehead II

Morning all. Being in the lazy mode. Is there anything downstairs or in this thread I should take a look at?

/ while I violate the BH II rule

Sure. Take a look at this.

I find this pretty scary.



Gulf of Mexico off Louisiana's coast
has a one of the largest "dead zones" in the world that has had a huge impact on the fishing and shrimping industry.

Where's LVQ when you need him?

243 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:33:54am

re: #241 Bubblehead II

/ while I violate the BH II rule

Is that anything like the Prime Directive?

244 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:34:16am

re: #190 The Sanity Inspector

There is no stink around the word "liberal".

245 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:35:56am

re: #243 SteveC

Is that anything like the Prime Directive?

If by that you mean constantly broken with little consequence...
;)

246 Only The Lurker Knows  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:36:23am

Please don't tell me I just walked into a shit storm.re: #242 reine.de.tout

hearted for later review. Tjanks

247 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:36:51am

re: #211 iceweasel

So glad you think so. Looking forward to your posts condemning all the crap Massa will be spewing about the Dems today on Beck, and elsewhere later.

Most excellent.

I love a good flame war so this Massa thing is cracking me up. The more I read about the guy the more I'm coming to the conclusion that Mr. Massa has some issues. Still, he might be right about Rahm and everyone has been going after him for weeks now. Rahm might be on his way out quicker than he would have expected.

248 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:37:27am

Later, lizards!

249 Only The Lurker Knows  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:37:43am

re: #243 SteveC

Yep. Don't post while drinking.

250 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:37:50am

I don't think Rahm is going anywhere.

251 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:38:08am

re: #231 iceweasel

Well, Massa didn't resign in protest, of course.

Sure he did, he's protesting that he's not allowed to molest his aides without people giving him a hard time about it.

252 Only The Lurker Knows  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:39:07am

re: #246 Bubblehead II

Please don't tell me I just walked into a shit storm.

hearted for later review. Tjanks

See what I mean.

253 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:39:47am

re: #250 prairiefire

I don't think Rahm is going anywhere.

I do. When there are people on the left and the right looking to put his head on a stake it's only a matter of time. He's managed to alienate just about everyone while all but calling his boss a stupid wuss.

254 reine.de.tout  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:40:22am

re: #247 RogueOne

I love a good flame war so this Massa thing is cracking me up. The more I read about the guy the more I'm coming to the conclusion that Mr. Massa has some issues. Still, he might be right about Rahm and everyone has been going after him for weeks now. Rahm might be on his way out quicker than he would have expected.

Massa's current self-serving stories just don't pass the smell test, IMHO.

255 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:41:23am

re: #254 reine.de.tout

I agree but it's still fun to watch a screaming bitch-fest.

256 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:41:32am

re: #167 Varek Raith

Heh, so...Can I refer to conservatives as "cons"? I only mean to use it as short hand!
I can play this childish game too!
;)

Interestingly enough I usually use Cons all the time. Conservatives even use Cons as a shorthand reference. It just is so normal that the 'punny' or negative implications aren't even noticed. I don't use it here though because of the difference but occasionally it does slip out because of years of internet pol talk habit. Same with Libs, Dippers and Greenies which are each used by opposition and supporters to self reference.

257 Only The Lurker Knows  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:43:57am

L8R Lizards. Rein you're 242 has been hearted.

Night all

258 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:46:05am

Orwell is right, but his bit of wisdom applies to others besides nationalists. It applies to any partisan kool ade drinker. We see it here everyday.

259 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:46:11am

re: #247 RogueOne

Mr. Massa has some issues.

Margo Lane: I dreamed I was lying on a beach relaxing while the sun warmed my naked body. How about you?

Lamont Cranston: I dreamed that my head was hurting so badly that I ripped my face off, and when I looked in a mirror I saw that I was someone else entirely.

Margo: You have issues!

260 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:47:23am

re: #247 RogueOne

I love a good flame war so this Massa thing is cracking me up. The more I read about the guy the more I'm coming to the conclusion that Mr. Massa has some issues. Still, he might be right about Rahm and everyone has been going after him for weeks now. Rahm might be on his way out quicker than he would have expected.

The existing power structure must be utterly destroyed! On this all reasonable anarchists can SURELY agree!

261 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:48:51am

re: #247 RogueOne

I love a good flame war so this Massa thing is cracking me up. The more I read about the guy the more I'm coming to the conclusion that Mr. Massa has some issues. Still, he might be right about Rahm and everyone has been going after him for weeks now. Rahm might be on his way out quicker than he would have expected.

Naked Rahm!!!

262 laZardo  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:49:08am

Speaking of Rahm Emanuel, Michael Moore is volunteering to replace him.

Goddammit.

263 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:49:16am

re: #261 Jadespring

Naked Rahm!!!

Oh God. The goggles, they do nothing.

264 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:51:05am

re: #244 prairiefire

There is no stink around the word "liberal".

Sister, we haven't hung out. Oh, you said word. I'll agree then.

265 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:51:27am

re: #253 RogueOne

I do. When there are people on the left and the right looking to put his head on a stake it's only a matter of time.

Vicki Vale: What do you want?

Joker: A little song, a little dance... Batman's head on a lance!

266 laZardo  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:51:48am

re: #244 prairiefire

That's because we finally learned to take a shower every now and then. :D

267 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:52:19am

Actually I'm thinking I may have to try to endure Becks show just to see Becks take on the naked thing. Should be fodder for some major concern troll hilarity.

268 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:52:53am

re: #258 _RememberTonyC

Orwell is right, but his bit of wisdom applies to others besides nationalists. It applies to any partisan kool ade drinker. We see it here everyday.

Orwell was amazing. Someone once called him the conservatives' favorite socialist, and the socialists' favorite conservative.

269 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:53:11am

re: #247 RogueOne

I love a good flame war so this Massa thing is cracking me up. The more I read about the guy the more I'm coming to the conclusion that Mr. Massa has some issues. Still, he might be right about Rahm and everyone has been going after him for weeks now. Rahm might be on his way out quicker than he would have expected.

Possibly, but I don't find Massa saying any shit about Rahm that wasn't already common knowledge. Well, maybe except that thing in the shower. I wonder if Eric got wood on that...

270 laZardo  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:53:47am

Indonesian police raid may have killed Bali Bomber

Indonesian security forces say they have killed three suspected militants in two raids near the capital Jakarta.

The raids were said to be linked to an ongoing operation against militants in Aceh province that has brought a number of arrests.

Police said they could neither confirm nor deny the man killed in the first raid was Dulmatin, a top member of the Jemaah Islamiah (JI) group.

He is wanted over the Bali bomb attacks in 2002 that killed 202 people.

SNIP

271 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:54:32am

Morning Lizards. Something strange has been happening here recently. When I get up to go to work, it's not dark. And there's this thing in the sky - some big, bright, orange/yellow ball. I think it's called "the sun." After January and February, I thought it was just a myth.

272 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:54:41am

re: #269 Jeff In Ohio

Possibly, but I don't find Massa saying any shit about Rahm that wasn't already common knowledge. Well, maybe except that thing in the shower. I wonder if Eric got wood on that...

HELP! Brain flush needed, STAT!

273 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:54:41am

re: #269 Jeff In Ohio

Possibly, but I don't find Massa saying any shit about Rahm that wasn't already common knowledge. Well, maybe except that thing in the shower. I wonder if Eric got wood on that...

I'm pretty sure poking another guy with anything while in the shower is a violation of the guy code.

274 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:55:07am

re: #244 prairiefire

There is no stink around the word "liberal".

Remember the whole thing of saying "the L word"?

275 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:55:48am

re: #273 RogueOne

I'm pretty sure poking another guy with anything while in the shower is a violation of the guy code.

More or less. For those of us who have had to endure communal showers, it's a pretty well-known rule that there is a mandatory minimum separation distance.

276 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:55:58am

re: #271 Mad Al-Jaffee

Morning Lizards. Something strange has been happening here recently. When I get up to go to work, it's not dark. And there's this thing in the sky - some big, bright, orange/yellow ball. I think it's called "the sun." After January and February, I thought it was just a myth.

It's all a plot. The Communists/Anarchists/Socialists/Greenies/Ohio State Fans are out to get you.

277 laZardo  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:55:58am

re: #268 The Sanity Inspector

Orwell was amazing. Someone once called him the conservatives' favorite socialist, and the socialists' favorite conservative.

Orwell was an ass.

/at least I think that's how he was represented in Animal Farm.

278 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:56:22am

re: #274 The Sanity Inspector

l- word....?lesbians?

279 laZardo  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:56:35am

re: #275 thedopefishlives

Except in prison.

280 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:56:59am

re: #279 laZardo

Except in prison.

In prison, the guy code gets thrown out the window.

281 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:57:34am

re: #273 RogueOne

I'm pretty sure poking another guy with anything while in the shower is a violation of the guy code.

I thought it was steam room and not a shower. Isn't that like a sauna?

282 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:57:38am

re: #278 Boondock St. Bender

l- word...?lesbians?

You wish!

... so do I.

283 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:57:53am

re: #280 thedopefishlives

In prison, the guy code gets thrown out the window.

i'll take your word for it :)

284 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:58:28am

re: #283 _RememberTonyC

i'll take your word for it :)

Heh, I've never been there, I wouldn't know. It's just what you hear, if you know what I'm sayin'.

285 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:59:03am

emmamuel,rove,carville politics is a blood sport with these types.
(they usually leave me cold)full attack mode all the time.

286 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:59:05am

re: #276 SteveC

It's all a plot. The Communists/Anarchists/Socialists/Greenies/Ohio State Duke Fans are out to get you.

287 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:59:13am

re: #284 thedopefishlives

Heh, I've never been there, I wouldn't know. It's just what you hear, if you know what I'm sayin'.

It's all fun and games until someone gets his eye poked out!

288 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 5:59:36am

re: #284 thedopefishlives

Heh, I've never been there, I wouldn't know. It's just what you hear, if you know what I'm sayin'.

"Shawshank Rules?"

289 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:00:22am

re: #273 RogueOne

I'm pretty sure poking another guy with anything while in the shower is a violation of the guy code.

Even talking with your cock out is a violation in the code unless engaged in full body contact and then it must be dirty.

But yelling....I dunno, it has this fullmetaljacket feel going:

Rahm: How big are your privates?
Massa: Sir, five inches, sir.
Rahm: Five inches, xxxxxxxxxx (redacted for people who have sensibilities and good taste, of which, apparently, I have none.

290 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:00:59am

re: #280 thedopefishlives

The prison rape thing is mainly a US phenomenon, and one we should be rather more ashamed of than we are. It's something we use for comedy, thinking of how whatever bad guy we want to see in jail is going to get 'bubba for a dance partner', etc.

However, the truth is that most of the men raped in prison are young, not the hardened cons.

Here's a good report on it.

[Link: www.absoluteastronomy.com...]

(no, I don't know why a site called absoluteastronomy has such a thorough examination of prison rape and a bunch of other topics.)

291 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:01:44am

ugh...got a cup of DD coffee when i dropped off the lil guys....nothing more disappointing than a horrible cup of your favorite brew...

292 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:03:30am

re: #290 Obdicut

as in much of life the meek/weak are the victims.

293 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:03:38am

re: #291 Boondock St. Bender

ugh...got a cup of DD coffee when i dropped off the lil guys...nothing more disappointing than a horrible cup of your favorite brew...

I have never had a bad cup of DD coffee ... Starbucks? Yes.

294 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:03:50am

re: #291 Boondock St. Bender

That's a disappointing moment.

I'm using one of these and it really produces an excellent cuppa:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

295 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:03:53am

re: #281 Jadespring

I thought it was steam room and not a shower. Isn't that like a sauna?

Oops I remembered wrong. It was the showers.

296 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:03:59am

re: #66 iceweasel

I'm thinking Boondock comics.

297 SteveC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:04:06am

Well, all good things...

People are actually expecting me to accomplish several tasks today. Guess I need to get going.

Happy Trails, friends!

298 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:04:08am

There's a new Bluesman on the scene, Lightnin' Pigkins.

299 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:04:18am

re: #293 _RememberTonyC

i know ....very unusual

300 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:05:29am

re: #289 Jeff In Ohio

Hearted!

301 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:05:32am

re: #294 Obdicut

That's a disappointing moment.

I'm using one of these and it really produces an excellent cuppa:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

I stick by the tried and true Melita cone. it has served me well for 30 years.

302 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:05:38am

re: #294 Obdicut

i've heard very good things about the press style coffee makers...gonna have to try one.

303 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:06:11am

re: #300 prairiefire

Hearted!

Aww....

304 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:06:38am

re: #296 prairiefire

nope... the movie

305 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:06:58am

re: #302 Boondock St. Bender

i've heard very good things about the press style coffee makers...gonna have to try one.

Bodums are great. They make the best coffee imo. I have two, one for coffee and one for tea.

306 laZardo  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:07:22am

Brb, have to take out the garbage.

/[Godfather Theme Plays]

307 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:08:24am

re: #274 The Sanity Inspector

I'm not a Lesbian./
No, that was the first swipe the republicans took after electing George W. Bush. Many things play out in the conservative mind which do not in the liberal mind.

308 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:08:56am

re: #302 Boondock St. Bender

i've heard very good things about the press style coffee makers...gonna have to try one.

Always throw them away after they crack! A friend had one explode on her - it was not a pretty sight watching her play the drums with scalding across her belly.

309 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:09:40am

re: #290 Obdicut

The prison rape thing is mainly a US phenomenon, and one we should be rather more ashamed of than we are. It's something we use for comedy, thinking of how whatever bad guy we want to see in jail is going to get 'bubba for a dance partner', etc.

However, the truth is that most of the men raped in prison are young, not the hardened cons.

Here's a good report on it.

[Link: www.absoluteastronomy.com...]

(no, I don't know why a site called absoluteastronomy has such a thorough examination of prison rape and a bunch of other topics.)

I gave you a +1 for the sentiment but I'm not sure I agree that it is generally a US phenomenon. Haven't you ever seen "Midnight Express"?

310 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:10:00am

re: #294 Obdicut

That looks pretty good. I was thinking of buying a French press. I used one for a while, but I couldn't get the filter back together when I cleaned in one time. Now I mainly use one of these:

[Link: www.seattlecoffeegear.com...]

311 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:10:34am

re: #308 Jeff In Ohio

ouch! yeah you can't be too careful,glass with faults is very unpredictable,and unforgiving.

312 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:11:18am

re: #276 SteveC

It's all a plot. The Communists/Anarchists/Socialists/Greenies/Ohio State Fans are out to get you.

lmao - OSU fans

313 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:11:23am

re: #308 Jeff In Ohio

Always throw them away after they crack! A friend had one explode on her - it was not a pretty sight watching her play the drums with scalding across her belly.

You can get ones now that are virtually unbreakable. I have one and I swear they only way to wreck it would be to crush it under something.

314 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:11:50am

re: #310 Mad Al-Jaffee

That's pretty cool.

315 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:12:49am

re: #310 Mad Al-Jaffee

very cool looking too!

316 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:13:00am

re: #314 Jeff In Ohio

It makes a good cup, and with some frothed milk I can make something approaching a latte at home. Takes a while to brew though - about 10-15 minutes on the stove.

317 laZardo  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:14:04am

re: #309 RogueOne

That'd probably turn it from "primarily a US phenomenon" to "something US prisons have in common with third world countries apart from still using the death penalty."

But at least where I live, prison gays get their moment to shine.

318 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:14:33am

The great thing about a Meltia cone is it is completely portable. Only need coffee, grinder, cone, filter and electric tea pot and you can make great coffee in any motel room, rest stop or public rest room or where your slumming for the night. It truly is the hobo way to great coffee.

319 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:15:12am

ack on top of the coffee thing waiting for the rent a car dudes to come by.(think i have a bad wheel bearing)wanted to rent a challenger to give it a test ride(and see how the kids fit in it,they keep growing...)apparently they ain't got none....grrrr.

320 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:15:26am

re: #318 Jeff In Ohio

I don't think I would want to drink coffee that was brewed in a public rest room. :)

321 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:15:33am

re: #310 Mad Al-Jaffee

I like the aeropress because of the tiny little paper filters, the incredible ease of cleanup, and how fast it is.

I've just never gotten the hang of those stovetop espresso thingies, plus I tend to burn myself on them.

322 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:16:20am

re: #309 RogueOne

I gave you a +1 for the sentiment but I'm not sure I agree that it is generally a US phenomenon. Haven't you ever seen "Midnight Express"?

Rogue-- I don't doubt at all that it occurs in prisons globally. FYI, the sexual assault parts of Midnight Express were invented. See wiki-- there are links there that will substantiate that.

the author of the book it's based on says so. He also says the sexual contact he had in prison was voluntary. (in any case, he says the movie version invented those parts, and they arent to be found in his book about his experience, published some 7 years prior)

323 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:16:32am

re: #318 Jeff In Ohio

"The hobo way to great coffee!"
that kind of advertising just writes itself....lol

324 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:16:53am

re: #321 Obdicut

Can you use it to make iced coffee? That's one of the things I liked about the French press. You can mix coffee and cold water in it and let it cold brew overnight.

325 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:18:14am

re: #319 Boondock St. Bender

ack on top of the coffee thing waiting for the rent a car dudes to come by.(think i have a bad wheel bearing)wanted to rent a challenger to give it a test ride(and see how the kids fit in it,they keep growing...)apparently they ain't got none...grrr.

you need a do over today ..... where's Hillary's reset button?

326 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:18:36am

How did we go from 19th century political theory to coffee makers....? lol

327 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:18:52am

re: #309 RogueOne

Sorry, among Western nations. But the humor part of it is the part that I really find weird; it's like an implicit condoning of rape as a penalty, which is kinda disgusting to me.

If we really think rape is a good punishment to use, we ought to put it into law. If we don't think it is, we ought to crack down on it, because I cannot imagine anyone going to prison on some relatively minor charge and being raped not coming out with a deep hatred for the justice system. I don't think they learn to avoid prison, I think they learn to become more hardened and know they can't depend on the justice system to justly protect them.

328 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:19:32am

re: #316 Mad Al-Jaffee

It makes a good cup, and with some frothed milk I can make something approaching a latte at home. Takes a while to brew though - about 10-15 minutes on the stove.

I like it. It's on my birthday list. I don't drink much espresso, but occasionally I really hanker for a cup and never saw myself investing in a machine.

My one grace on coffee is having a local roaster where I can get fresh roasted organic and fair trade coffee for $6.50lb. I started a coffee club so I can buy bulk and they think I'm a regular wholesaler, but really, I'm just a junkie with friends.

329 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:22:02am

re: #327 Obdicut

Sorry, among Western nations. But the humor part of it is the part that I really find weird; it's like an implicit condoning of rape as a penalty, which is kinda disgusting to me.

the same people who make nervous 'jokes' about prison rape, or who explicitly wish for some convicted person to be raped in prison, would (by and large) never say such things about a female prisoner, no matter how heinous the crime.
Complete double standard, but it betrays how the culture feels about male rape and especially prisoners.

330 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:22:08am

re: #320 Mad Al-Jaffee

I don't think I would want to drink coffee that was brewed in a public rest room. :)

Oh that ain't a tenth of it.

331 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:22:26am

re: #327 Obdicut

Sorry, among Western nations. But the humor part of it is the part that I really find weird; it's like an implicit condoning of rape as a penalty, which is kinda disgusting to me.

If we really think rape is a good punishment to use, we ought to put it into law. If we don't think it is, we ought to crack down on it, because I cannot imagine anyone going to prison on some relatively minor charge and being raped not coming out with a deep hatred for the justice system. I don't think they learn to avoid prison, I think they learn to become more hardened and know they can't depend on the justice system to justly protect them.

rape is a criminal act, period. prisoners tend to be criminals. a friend of mine was a prison warden who just retired. they do their best, but unless every criminal inmate is in lockdown all the time, criminal acts will occur. do I condone it? of course not. but criminals do criminal acts. Human nature and all that ...

332 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:24:59am

re: #326 Boondock St. Bender

How did we go from 19th century political theory to coffee makers...? lol

It's like a cocktail party, talk just flows.

333 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:26:14am

re: #332 Jadespring

it never ceases to amaze me how the threads develope.

334 laZardo  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:26:33am
335 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:26:38am

re: #332 Jadespring

Great, back to the dick jokes. Really, you don't want to get me started, I have no ability to self moderate.

336 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:26:38am

BBL

337 laZardo  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:27:33am

re: #335 Jeff In Ohio

You're not the only one that doesn't want to go blind from laughing.

338 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:28:07am

re: #331 _RememberTonyC

They don't do their best, though. Not at all. We don't do our best in the prisons in the least to keep prisoners safe from harm. Our private prison system model needs a thorough goddamn reworking.

My suggestion is to keep them private, but tie payments to the prison to the recidivism rate of the ex-cons. Then we'd see innovation in rehabilitation. At the moment, prisons make more money the more prisoners they get, so they have a literal disincentive to deter prisoners from committing future crimes. That ain't good.

339 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:28:10am

re: #334 laZardo

ah yes superjail...the more more impaired you are the funnier it gets....lol

340 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:28:21am
341 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:29:07am

re: #338 Obdicut

They don't do their best, though. Not at all. We don't do our best in the prisons in the least to keep prisoners safe from harm. Our private prison system model needs a thorough goddamn reworking.

My suggestion is to keep them private, but tie payments to the prison to the recidivism rate of the ex-cons. Then we'd see innovation in rehabilitation. At the moment, prisons make more money the more prisoners they get, so they have a literal disincentive to deter prisoners from committing future crimes. That ain't good.

look at you, suggesting privatization. shucks, i'm so proud...

(gentle kidding aside, i love the suggestion)

342 laZardo  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:31:43am

re: #341 Aceofwhat?

look at you, suggesting privatization. shucks, i'm so proud...

(gentle kidding aside, i love the suggestion)

I agree. We need Death Races.

/yes, I watched the Jason Statham remake.

//Jason Statham is the bald shit.

343 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:31:53am

re: #334 laZardo

Speaking of prisons, one of my favorite cartoons as of late...


[Video]

i admit that this one challenges the limits between funny and bizarre for me. i'm more of a Sealab 2021 sort of person...

344 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:32:55am

re: #310 Mad Al-Jaffee

That looks pretty good. I was thinking of buying a French press. I used one for a while, but I couldn't get the filter back together when I cleaned in one time. Now I mainly use one of these:

[Link: www.seattlecoffeegear.com...]

I had lousy luck with a glass French press, but found a stainless thermos-type in a thrift store. Made all the difference. (Starbucks uses French press for their quality-control checks.) The stainless is also rugged enough for camping.

345 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:33:06am

I just adore Spring.

346 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:33:18am

re: #342 laZardo

only if ian mcshane comes with it.
(al swearangen rocks!)

347 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:33:25am

re: #345 MandyManners

I just adore Spring.

Yeah, if only it would get here.

348 laZardo  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:33:46am

re: #343 Aceofwhat?

I miss that show. They only showed the first two seasons over here. ):

/UH OHHHH!

349 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:33:47am

It's the fufillment of God's promise that this, too, shall pass.

350 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:33:51am

re: #343 Aceofwhat?

You know feng-chooey?

There go my nipples again!

351 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:34:04am

re: #347 thedopefishlives

Yeah, if only it would get here.

Just wait. It's coming your way!

352 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:34:10am

re: #340 MandyManners

Indeed.
It's A Beautiful Day - White Bird

353 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:35:14am

re: #345 MandyManners

yes definately something magical in the cycle of re-birth...
(oh-man did i just post that....gotta put in my old copy of the road warrior until proper levels of manlyness are reached...)

354 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:36:11am

re: #353 Boondock St. Bender

yes definately something magical in the cycle of re-birth...
(oh-man did i just post that...gotta put in my old copy of the road warrior until proper levels of manlyness are reached...)

seeeriously. the rest of us can look away awkwardly and shuffle our feet a little if it helps//

355 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:36:36am

re: #352 Jeff In Ohio

Indeed.
It's A Beautiful Day - White Bird

[Video]

Oh, beautiful! It's been ages since I heard this. Thank you!!!

356 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:37:26am

re: #353 Boondock St. Bender

yes definately something magical in the cycle of re-birth...
(oh-man did i just post that...gotta put in my old copy of the road warrior until proper levels of manlyness are reached...)

It's very manly to welcome Spring.

Now, go sharpen your mower's blade.

357 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:37:55am

re: #354 Aceofwhat?

seeeriously. the rest of us can look away awkwardly and shuffle our feet a little if it helps//

Go sharpen your blade, too.

358 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:38:45am

re: #356 MandyManners

It's very manly to welcome Spring.

Now, go sharpen your mower's blade.

On the thigh of your leather chaps.

359 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:39:01am

re: #353 Boondock St. Bender

yes definately something magical in the cycle of re-birth...
(oh-man did i just post that...gotta put in my old copy of the road warrior until proper levels of manlyness are reached...)

Listen to AC/DC or Motorhead and have a couple of shots of Jack.

360 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:39:05am

re: #352 Jeff In Ohio

as opposed to green bird

361 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:39:17am

Whoa, DD.

362 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:39:39am

re: #357 MandyManners

Go sharpen your blade, too.

Some folks call it a sling blade. I can it a kaiser blade. Mmmmm hmmmmmm.

363 laZardo  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:40:02am

re: #345 MandyManners

I just adore Spring.

Where I live, it's either scalding sunny or flooded rainy.

MAKES A REAL MAN/WOMAN OUT OF YOU.

364 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:40:26am

re: #357 MandyManners

Go sharpen your blade, too.

heh. the fall Florida drought = everyone's lawn is evenly brown. I won't have to mow until May!

365 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:40:37am

re: #355 MandyManners

Oh, beautiful! It's been ages since I heard this. Thank you!!!

You can hear the whole show at Wolfgang's Vault without the over the top hippy image stuff.

[Link: www.wolfgangsvault.com...]

Better audio also, Youtube compression does awful things on LaFlamme's violin.

366 badger1970  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:41:02am

re: #360 Boondock St. Bender

Upding for the Bebop reference.

367 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:42:03am

re: #365 Jeff In Ohio

You can hear the whole show at Wolfgang's Vault without the over the top hippy image stuff.

[Link: www.wolfgangsvault.com...]

Better audio also, Youtube compression does awful things on LaFlamme's violin.

I like hippies. Well, as long as they didn't grow up to be Progs.

368 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:42:50am

oooh she's gonna' come looking for me now

369 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:43:07am

re: #367 MandyManners

I like hippies. Well, as long as they didn't grow up to be Progs.

oh, brother

370 badger1970  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:43:12am

re: #367 MandyManners

If they are ELP, Rush (the band), Yes and/or APP fans, I can forgive them. You know, prog rock.

371 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:43:14am

re: #359 Mad Al-Jaffee

Listen to AC/DC or Motorhead and have a couple of shots of Jack.

And get out the chainsaw.

372 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:44:29am

re: #366 badger1970

one of my favorite scenes...beautiful music,and spike being spike

373 laZardo  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:44:30am

re: #368 MandyManners

oooh she's gonna' come looking for me now

Heeey, heyyyy~

374 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:45:47am

re: #372 Boondock St. Bender

Is your Boondock tag name from the comics?

375 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:45:55am

This is a really interesting, easy-to-read synopsis of two economists who are friends but have very different takes on how historical trends lead them to evaluate the current and near-future market.

376 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:46:38am

re: #367 MandyManners

I like hippies. Well, as long as they didn't grow up to be Progs.

Snark alert!

377 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:47:12am

re: #374 prairiefire

no the movie boondock saints,and of course bender the drunken robot
although i rather enjoyed the comic strip

378 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:47:24am

re: #352 Jeff In Ohio

Oh my gosh, it's been too long since I have heard that song.

379 badger1970  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:47:30am

re: #372 Boondock St. Bender

I like "Call Me, Call Me", from the end of ep. 24. It really sets the tone.

380 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:48:00am

re: #377 Boondock St. Bender

no the movie boondock saints,and of course bender the drunken robot
although i rather enjoyed the comic strip

Futurama fans = auto +1. every time.

381 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:48:01am

re: #367 MandyManners

I like hippies. Well, as long as they didn't grow up to be Progs. investment bankers.

re: #367

It happens.

382 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:48:47am
383 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:48:56am

re: #379 badger1970

yoko kanno really brought depth to the series with her composing.
(they better let her do the music for the movie!)

384 badger1970  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:49:48am

re: #383 Boondock St. Bender

Couldn't agree more, but couldn't they find a younger actor than Keanu for Spike?

385 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:50:20am

re: #380 Aceofwhat?

thanks!

386 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:51:28am

The Inter American Commission on Human Rights (IACHR) published a report which criticizes Venezuela’s constant encroachment of civil and political rights, most notably against its Jewish community.

The report noted that the government controlled media “contributed to creating an atmosphere of intimidation and violence against the Jewish community in Venezuela…The commission views these violent acts with concern, aware that they could also affect the right of freedom of worship in Venezuela…”

FrumForum interviewed Rabbi Marvin Hier, the Founder and Dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center Museum of Tolerance (MOT). MOT is an international Jewish human rights organization that confronts anti-Semitism, hate, and terrorism, and defends the safety of Jews worldwide.

Chavez has made it very difficult for Jews by blaming America and Israel for all the evils of the world. Rabbi Hier noted that “He talks about Israel as the epitome of evil. Chavez hates America, hates Israel, and hates Zionism.”

How does Chavez make it difficult for Venezuelan Jews? Hier commented that they are reluctant to complain, especially in the media, because of the governmental pressure and the hostile environment. They are afraid to make public statements since everything said is monitored. He further stated that “If you are a Zionist, you are certainly a persona non grata. Jews there cannot live openly as Jews and Zionists. Otherwise they will feel the wrath of the government, since the official line is that Zionism is poison. The best thing for them to do is leave but then they would have to leave their assets behind.”

sSNIP

387 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:52:08am

re: #378 prairiefire

Oh my gosh, it's been too long since I have heard that song.

Their debut still ranks as one of my favs. My older sister had it and I played in endlessly, and I have all her vinyl now. Heh, she used to have great taste in music and to her credit, took great care of her LPs...not like me who has several Replacement LP's soaked in alcohol...fitting, I know.

388 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:52:31am

re: #384 badger1970

he was a major driver for the movie to be made(keanu is a major bebop fan)
i suggested earlier the actor from "burn notice"or "white collar"they both seem to nail spikes character.

389 badger1970  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:53:50am

re: #388 Boondock St. Bender


I did not know that. I can forgive him. ;)

390 laZardo  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:54:19am

Will attempt to go to sleep. Nighty.

391 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:54:34am

re: #389 badger1970

as long as he doesn't screw it up! lol

392 Jeff In Ohio  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:57:40am

The Earth Died Screaming so we could prod some life out of it. Time to get on with it.

L8R G8R's.

393 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:57:49am

re: #386 MandyManners

The Inter American Commission on Human Rights (IACHR) published a report which criticizes Venezuela’s constant encroachment of civil and political rights, most notably against its Jewish community.

sSNIP

Dear Lord, is there no despot who doesn't irrationally find the Joos to be one of the primary roots of all evil?

394 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:58:03am

I will say though that there is only so much an actor can do.The ultimate blame usually rests with the director,writer,producer.

395 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:59:00am

re: #393 Aceofwhat?

Dear Lord, is there no despot who doesn't irrationally find the Joos to be one of the primary roots of all evil?

To be perfectly blunt, no. The main reason is because the Joos are an easy target, having been the convenient scapegoat of the world since Roman times.

396 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:59:11am

re: #393 Aceofwhat?

easy target...one that all to often gets a wink and nod from the rest of the world....

397 Locker  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 6:59:15am

Sup my Progs! How you doing this morning?

398 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:00:54am

re: #367 MandyManners

I like hippies. Well, as long as they didn't grow up to be Progs.

What so wrong with computer programers and programs?

399 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:01:07am

re: #397 Locker

everytime i see a smiley face i think of "the comedian"from the watchmen....

400 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:01:17am

re: #397 Locker

Same thing we do every morning. Plot to take over the world.... /

401 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:01:52am

re: #400 lawhawk

Same thing we do every morning. Plot to take over the world... /

We already did, lawhawk. Didn't you get the memo? It should've gone out with your Zionist check.

402 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:02:37am

re: #386 MandyManners

A report by the human rights watchdog of the Organization of American States warns of a possible “threat to the life and physical integrity of the Jewish community in Venezuela” due to the Chavez regime’s violations of the political and human rights of its citizens.

In a lengthy report publicized in late February, the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights (IACHR) accused the government of Venezuela of fostering an atmosphere of “political intolerance” and “a climate hostile to the free exercise of dissenting political participation.”

It blasted the prevailing “citizen insecurity” in the country and saved its harshest criticism for “the prevailing impunity affecting cases of human rights violations,” including in cases of police misconduct, abuse of authority, and even torture.

SNIP

Beginning in paragraph 780 of the report, which is available online at the IACHR’s Web site, the commission expressed “concern” over “reports claiming that the Jewish community in Venezuela is being especially affected by violent incidents.”

Citing anti-Semitic discourse in media and among state officials, combined with vandalism and an “unexplained” raid by Venezuelan police, the report concludes that such incidents contribute “to creating an atmosphere of intimidation and violence against the Jewish community in Venezuela.

“The foregoing, added to the lack of investigation and sanctioning of those responsible for these acts, including those in which state forces participated, constitutes a threat to the life and physical integrity of the Jewish community in Venezuela.”

According to Amcha’s Rabbi Shmuel Herzfeld, “the Venezuelan government would have us believe [these incidents] were committed by a bunch of thugs, and this document, written on OAS stationery, says otherwise.”

Amcha has submitted a request to hold additional hearings on the matter, and Herzfeld is hopeful these will take place by October.

The report devotes two long paragraphs to a December 2007 police raid at Caracas’s Hebrew Social, Cultural, and Sports Center, which the Venezuelan state claimed was meant to find “evidence of criminalistic interest related to the alleged commission of a crime against public order, the community, or national security.”

SNIP

403 zora  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:03:18am

re: #377 Boondock St. Bender

just watched it for the 1st time last week. great movie. the second one is on my netflix list and i can't wait for it to get here.

404 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:04:10am

re: #400 lawhawk

Same thing we do every morning. Plot to take over the world... /

ahhh, been too long since i've heard the Brain. well done-

405 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:04:16am

re: #397 Locker

Sup my Progs! How you doing this morning?

Sup babe!
How goes it, Comrade?

406 Locker  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:04:43am

re: #400 lawhawk

Same thing we do every morning. Plot to take over the world... /

Oh Brain, you are so incorrigible.

407 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:05:07am

re: #401 thedopefishlives

We already did, lawhawk. Didn't you get the memo? It should've gone out with your Zionist check.

Shhhh... plausible deniability. :)

408 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:06:12am

ahhh there's the rent a car guy...see you guys later!
have a great day!

409 Locker  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:06:20am

re: #405 iceweasel

Sup babe!
How goes it, Comrade?

Running some SQL scripts and reading Mitt Romney's attempt to squish the impending Nader Syndrome that's about to squish the right in some upcoming elections. Other than that I'm just Progging it up on the West SiEEde.

410 Slap  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:06:33am

Ho!

Did someone call Prog?????

Ah, Canterbury....

411 MandyManners  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:06:49am

Back in May 2009

A stroll through Aventura Mall over the weekend ended up depressing me after I ran into an old friend's parents who told me about the misfortunes and dilemmas Jews currently face in Venezuela.

Miami is the exile capital for Venezuelan Jews, just as it has been for Cuban Jews, or ``Jewbans.'' I predict the time will come when we'll be called ``Venejews.'' There are similarities between both groups.

As it happened in Cuba under Fidel Castro, the number of Jews in Venezuela has dramatically decreased since Hugo Chávez came to power. The Hebrew community has been the object of invectives from the president himself and the government media. Which prompts me to ask: What will be the fate of the vibrant Jewish community in the land that gave refuge to my ancestors and served as a model to the Jewish diaspora?

``The fact is, many members of the Jewish community have left Venezuela,'' said Abraham Levy Benshimol, president of Venezuela's Confederation of Israeli Associations. ``The more people we lose, the more difficult it becomes to maintain our institutions.''

SNIP

One of the major concerns for Jews is precisely their children's education. Last week, the Chávez government passed an obscure education bill granting the government ``. . . excessive power over the curriculums of private schools.'' And that is in addition to the indoctrinating material titled Socialism in the 21st Century, which is mandatory.

The law also contemplates the role of communal councils in the schools' management and supervision, giving unqualified people in the education sector the power to influence the system.

SNIP

412 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:09:53am

re: #409 Locker

Running some SQL scripts and reading Mitt Romney's attempt to squish the impending Nader Syndrome that's about to squish the right in some upcoming elections. Other than that I'm just Progging it up on the West SiEEde.

West Sieede-- booyakasha!

413 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:11:34am

re: #411 MandyManners

Back in May 2009

A stroll through Aventura Mall over the weekend ended up depressing me after I ran into an old friend's parents who told me about the misfortunes and dilemmas Jews currently face in Venezuela.

SNIP

Say what you want about us, but I take pride in the fact that (yes, with a few outliers) there have been few demographics as welcoming of the Jewish race and religion as the modern American Christian.

414 Locker  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:11:36am

I'm looking at several incarnations of Pro-Prog T-shirts:

Prog Life
Prog By Popular Demand
Prog for Health on the Niagara Frontier Incorporated (Milk commercial from back in the day)

415 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:12:00am

re: #397 Locker

Sup my Progs! How you doing this morning?

Welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, well. To what do we owe the extreme pleasure of this surprising visit?

416 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:13:02am

re: #400 lawhawk

One cup of coffee at a time...

417 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:13:24am

re: #413 Aceofwhat?

Say what you want about us, but I take pride in the fact that (yes, with a few outliers) there have been few demographics as welcoming of the Jewish race and religion as the modern American Christian.

At the moment I'm reading Norman Podhoretz's new book Why Are Jews Liberal?, in which he expounds on that very thing.

418 Locker  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:13:37am

re: #415 Walter L. Newton

Welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, well. To what do we owe the extreme pleasure of this surprising visit?

That sounded just like Captain Cartman from the recent episode of South Park. He took Ike, Butters and some of the boys to Somalia to be pirates. Great episode.

"Remember. Don't hit the white ones."

419 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:15:02am

re: #414 Locker

I'm looking at several incarnations of Pro-Prog T-shirts:

Prog Life
Prog By Popular Demand
Prog for Health on the Niagara Frontier Incorporated (Milk commercial from back in the day)

Prog by name, Prog by nature!

Anti-beck tshirt: Once you go prog, you don't boil frogs.

Make Prog not War.

420 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:15:42am

re: #419 iceweasel

Flog the Prog Frog?

421 Locker  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:15:52am

re: #419 iceweasel

Prog by name, Prog by nature!

Anti-beck tshirt: Once you go prog, you don't boil frogs.

Make Prog not War.

Those are great but that boil frogs one is a winner, that's for damn sure.

422 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:15:54am

re: #413 Aceofwhat?

Say what you want about us, but I take pride in the fact that (yes, with a few outliers) there have been few demographics as welcoming of the Jewish race and religion as the modern American Christian.

Possibly because America has enjoyed a long history of generally improving economic conditions (aside from a few panics and depressions). Yeah, I know, that's warmed-over Weber.

423 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:16:26am

re: #418 Locker

That sounded just like Captain Cartman from the recent episode of South Park. He took Ike, Butters and some of the boys to Somalia to be pirates. Great episode.

"Remember. Don't hit the white ones."

Nope.

re: #415 Walter L. Newton

Welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, welly, well. To what do we owe the extreme pleasure of this surprising visit?

Tuesday morning trivia... name the movie that quote is from?

424 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:16:30am

re: #419 iceweasel

Prog by name, Prog by nature!

Anti-beck tshirt: Once you go prog, you don't boil frogs.

Make Prog not War.

I enjoy being a Prog.

425 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:17:22am

Oops.

[Link: www.politico.com...]


When you go into Obama-campaign style "Fight the Smears" mode, it's generally a pretty good idea to be sure the charges against you are, in fact, not provably true.

As Josh Gerstein wrote last week, the story of Sami Al-Arian, the Florida professor who pled guilty of supporting Palestinian Islamic Jihad in 2006, has been roiling the GOP Senate Primary there, with Tom Campbell under fire from rivals for his departures from the party's staunch support for Israel.

Campbell, in last week's debate, defended himself against charges involving a letter he wrote in support of Al-Arian and contributions from the professor.

He also put up a website, CampbellFacts, on the same theme.

The problem: Just hours after the debate ended, The Investigative Project put online a letter from Campbell that defended Arian and made reference to that same O'Reilly interview.

“I read a transcript of the O’Reilly Factor interview last autumn, and I did not see anything whereby Professor Al-Arian attempted to claim he was representing the views of the University of South Florida," Campbell wrote in the January, 2002 letter.

The interview included a clip of Al-Arian saying, "Victory to Islam. Death to Israel," which has produced, today, the race's best defense yet, as Campbell says he didn't actually read that part.

426 Locker  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:17:36am

re: #423 Walter L. Newton

Tuesday morning trivia... name the movie that quote is from?

Clockwork Orange is too violent, I like Cartman better.

427 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:17:38am

re: #41 Walter L. Newton

Tuesday morning trivia... name the movie that quote is from?

A Clockwork Orange?

428 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:18:27am

re: #44 Locker

Clockwork Orange is too violent, I like Cartman better.

Alex never had his rival's parents murdered, cooked into chili and served to him.

429 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:18:49am

re: #422 Decatur Deb

Possibly because America has enjoyed a long history of generally improving economic conditions (aside from a few panics and depressions). Yeah, I know, that's warmed-over Weber.

I don't doubt that part. But i was specifically referring to the one religion being unusually receptive and supportive of the other. All hope is not lost...

430 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:18:54am

Good Morning Everyone! Happy Tuesday to you all, hows everyone this lovely morning?

431 Locker  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:19:27am

re: #428 Mad Al-Jaffee

Alex never had his rival's parents murdered, cooked into chili and served to him.

I can always count on you to recognize humor by context rather than rely on a sarc tag. Hehe.

432 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:19:59am

Good morning lizards! Another sunny day in Philadelphia as always.

I see from the local news that President Obama was in the neighborhood yesterday to make a speech (Arcadia University). The local Tea Partiers turned out since the paper reports about 100 protesters/supporters are reported to have been there (but not allowed on the university's grounds.)

Haven't searched yet to see what amusing signs they were holding. The one picture I saw indicated mainly debt-related and Obama-care.

433 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:20:35am

Albusteve, if you're here can a ask a couple more question?

434 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:22:10am

re: #50 oaktree

Has the Nightman cometh?

435 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:22:32am

re: #428 Mad Al-Jaffee

Alex never had his rival's parents murdered, cooked into chili and served to him.

Big whoop. *gasp* how shocking it might have been to suggest that.

And it was shocking then too-- oh wait.

436 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:23:09am

Good morning, everyone. Colds are ass. Nothing more to be said. Carry on.

437 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:23:16am

re: #413 Aceofwhat?

The Germans were Christian, and that's a hell of an outlier.

So were the French, who turned us over to the Germans in prodigious numbers.

Do you mean "post-WWII" by modern?

A large number of the current antisemite organizations in the US are Christian Identity movements. The Souther Baptists target Jews for converstion, which is an especially nasty bit of antisemitism.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

438 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:23:57am

re: #53 iceweasel

Big whoop. *gasp* how shocking it might have been to suggest that.

And it was shocking then too-- oh wait.

I wasn't complaing about the violence in that South Park episode. I loved that one and thought it was hilarious. And it showed just how sinister Cartman can be.

439 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:25:19am

From the... only in NY files, Hiram Monserrate, the Democrat who was kicked out of the State Senate after being found guilty of misdemeanor assault, has expropriated the Obama logo and slogan "Yes we can" for his special election bid to regain his seat.

The DNC is none too happy about it.

440 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:25:27am

I guess spring is about to be sprung, my furry little friends have me surrounded and are caterwauling up a storm to go out! My goodness what a catcophony! Help! Oh no their starting to lick me! I'm being licked to death! Aughhhh! :-0

441 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:25:27am

re: #437 Obdicut

PIMF: conversion, not converstion. Coffee needed.

442 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:26:44am

re: #438 Mad Al-Jaffee

I wasn't complaing about the violence in that South Park episode. I loved that one and thought it was hilarious. And it showed just how sinister Cartman can be.

Oh yeah. I loooove that episode and it's also pretty damn disturbing, sort of. And has literary precedents stretching back 2000 years or so, which was what I kinda wanted to get in there--apologies.

443 darthstar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:28:38am

Mornin' kids...woke up with this little ditty stuck in my head, so I figured I'd come here and infect you all...

444 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:31:37am

re: #437 Obdicut

The Germans were Christian, and that's a hell of an outlier.

So were the French, who turned us over to the Germans in prodigious numbers.

Do you mean "post-WWII" by modern?

A large number of the current antisemite organizations in the US are Christian Identity movements. The Souther Baptists target Jews for converstion, which is an especially nasty bit of antisemitism.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

you missed the part where i said "American", methinks. and i qualified outliers. see? i was trying to save you the hassle of this post, because i saw the headlights from a mile away//

445 darthstar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:31:53am
446 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:32:00am

re: #443 darthstar

Mornin' kids...woke up with this little ditty stuck in my head, so I figured I'd come here and infect you all...

[Video]

The song retains the name.

447 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:32:02am

re: #437 Obdicut

...snip The Souther Baptists target Jews for converstion, which is an especially nasty bit of antisemitism.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

The "End Times/conversion" bit is tricky. It's clearly "anti" from the point of view of Jewish religious survival, but could be the opposite of "anti" because of the Baptist's somewhat blended motives.

It's real early for this, here in CST.

448 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:32:36am

re: #440 Dragon_Lady

I'm taking advantage of my neighbors in dealing with this. The one cat always attempts to run out into the hall (and explore) when I leave the apartment in the morning. But they are afraid of people in the hall and will run back into the apartment when they appear.

So this morning when I was getting ready to leave I heard one of the neighbors leaving for work. So I opened the door. The cat ran out about six feet, saw the neighbor, stopped, did a 180 degree turn, and scuttled back into the apartment. I thing just walked out the door and went to work.

The neighbor is amused by the whole performance. And she has encountered the cats previously.

449 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:32:44am

re: #444 Aceofwhat?

you missed the part where i said "American", methinks. and i qualified outliers. see? i was trying to save you the hassle of this post, because i saw the headlights from a mile away//

gotta stop walking in the middle of the road!!!
/

450 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:33:45am

PIMF. thing -> think. :p

451 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:34:56am

re: #439 lawhawk

From the... only in NY files, Hiram Monserrate, the Democrat who was kicked out of the State Senate after being found guilty of misdemeanor assault, has expropriated the Obama logo and slogan "Yes we can" for his special election bid to regain his seat.

The DNC is none too happy about it.

Court battle brewing, with the lawyers from each side in opening arguments,,,,,,

"Yes I can"
"Oh no, you don't!! "

452 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:35:21am

re: #444 Aceofwhat?

I still think those outliers are rather more definitive than you think.

Southern Baptists aren't small, and they spread a lot of antisemitism around. Take a look at that link.

re: #447 Decatur Deb

Sorry, but the conversion manual is totally antisemetic;


On day five, the book urges Christians to pray that Jews "seek to make their own lives richer through personal relationships with Christ." On day six, "that they may come to terms with their own anti-Christian biases." And on day eight, that "Jewish people would be free of the strong influence of materialism."

First, the guide book implies that the great majority of Jews are actually secular or atheist, based on a study by the U.S. Center for World Mission in Pasadena, Calif. The book then breaks down the numbers for each country, for example: "Israel: Jewish population: 4,500,000. Jewish believers: 5,000."

Jews don't engage in conversion, and it is hard to convey to a non-Jew just how amazingly offensive it is. Even when they're not praying for us to be non-materialistic and claiming Jews don't actually have faith anyway.

453 Hengineer  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:36:04am

werd

454 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:36:40am

Did anyone else get a letter from the Census Bureau this week? I got one last night, telling me that they would be soon sending my census forms to fill out. Couldn't they have skipped that letter and sent the form? I wonder how much the government spent on those letters.

455 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:36:42am

re: #452 Obdicut

Not that I have faith, so they're right about me, but wrong about the majority of Jews. The "only 5,000 Jewish faithful in Israel" thing is fucking lunacy.

456 Hengineer  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:37:28am

re: #454 Mad Al-Jaffee

Did anyone else get a letter from the Census Bureau this week? I got one last night, telling me that they would be soon sending my census forms to fill out. Couldn't they have skipped that letter and sent the form? I wonder how much the government spent on those letters.

they're a warning to illegal aliens to skip town?

457 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:37:53am

re: #454 Mad Al-Jaffee

I got an email notifying me that I'd be receiving a letter that would inform me that I'd get a document setting a schedule for when I'd receive the census forms would arrive.

458 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:37:55am

re: #448 oaktree

My furrballs (all 3 of them) have a lovely large enclosed courtyard that they are let out into on a regular basis, but they have a nasty habit of wanting to jump the fence to go on french leave so I have to trail around behind them. I usually let them out for about 30 to 45 minutes every day and they can be quite annoying when they think I should be letting them out. Especially the Maine Coon, our sweet ring leader. You have heard if the expression "herding cats" I assume? I do it on a regular basis!

459 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:38:53am

re: #454 Mad Al-Jaffee

Did anyone else get a letter from the Census Bureau this week? I got one last night, telling me that they would be soon sending my census forms to fill out. Couldn't they have skipped that letter and sent the form? I wonder how much the government spent on those letters.

They're hoping to cut down on people tossing the forms out unopened out of ignorance.

460 badger1970  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:38:56am

re: #454 Mad Al-Jaffee

Or the "free" polo shirt that I received today with the school's (where I work) logo and colors and "United States Census 2010" on the sleeve.

461 Hengineer  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:39:08am

re: #452 Obdicut

I still think those outliers are rather more definitive than you think.

Southern Baptists aren't small, and they spread a lot of antisemitism around. Take a look at that link.

re: #447 Decatur Deb

Sorry, but the conversion manual is totally antisemetic;

I find it extremely pretentious to engage in evangelicalism, to attempt to "convert" someone. The ideas are there, if they don't like what they see, then they won't convert.

Jews don't engage in conversion, and it is hard to convey to a non-Jew just how amazingly offensive it is. Even when they're not praying for us to be non-materialistic and claiming Jews don't actually have faith anyway.

462 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:39:22am

re: #454 Mad Al-Jaffee

Did anyone else get a letter from the Census Bureau this week? I got one last night, telling me that they would be soon sending my census forms to fill out. Couldn't they have skipped that letter and sent the form? I wonder how much the government spent on those letters.

Just wait for the flood of pre-census and follow up letters they send
PRE ,,, a letter on what to expect when you get your census form (probably 2-3 versions of that one)
POST,, a letter in survey form on how your census experience was,, followed by a follow up one thatnking you for your participatioin

463 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:39:50am

I got an email from from American Income Life saying they got my resume (probably saw it on Monster) and they would be contacting me. Sounded kind of fishy to me. Did a search on them and they're a multi level marketing company. [Link: www.scam.com...]

I'll be ignoring any more contact from them.

464 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:39:51am

re: #452 Obdicut

I still think those outliers are rather more definitive than you think.

Southern Baptists aren't small, and they spread a lot of antisemitism around. Take a look at that link.

re: #447 Decatur Deb

Sorry, but the conversion manual is totally antisemetic;

I agree it is going to be seen as anti-semitic from the target side. But there is also an innocent impulse for evangelists: "I have the best thing in the universe, and I want to give it to you."

(ex-Catholic here. Catholics are low-temperature evangelists, see a mission to convert everyone.)

Jews don't engage in conversion, and it is hard to convey to a non-Jew just how amazingly offensive it is. Even when they're not praying for us to be non-materialistic and claiming Jews don't actually have faith anyway.

465 Hengineer  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:39:59am

re: #458 Dragon_Lady

My furrballs (all 3 of them) have a lovely large enclosed courtyard that they are let out into on a regular basis, but they have a nasty habit of wanting to jump the fence to go on french leave so I have to trail around behind them. I usually let them out for about 30 to 45 minutes every day and they can be quite annoying when they think I should be letting them out. Especially the Maine Coon, our sweet ring lIts feader. You have heard if the expression "herding cats" I assume? I do it on a regular basis!

Its fairly easy to herd them when you're carrying a can of tuna or canned cat food. Just tap the lid (assuming they know the sound) and they will come running right to you.

466 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:40:00am
467 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:40:25am

re: #456 Hengineer

they're a warning to illegal aliens to skip town?

Who do you think the gov't hired to stuff the letters and put them on your porch!?!?!
//

468 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:40:42am

re: #464 Decatur Deb

Somehow my post is a trap. Sorry, I didn't mean to quote both of you.

469 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:41:00am

re: #454 Mad Al-Jaffee

Did anyone else get a letter from the Census Bureau this week? I got one last night, telling me that they would be soon sending my census forms to fill out. Couldn't they have skipped that letter and sent the form? I wonder how much the government spent on those letters.

Haven't gotten one yet. RWC thinks I should apply with the census bureau. Yeah, like I want to go walking about and knocking on a bunch of strangers doors. Been there, done that, not doing it again!

470 darthstar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:41:17am

re: #459 The Sanity Inspector

They're hoping to cut down on people tossing the forms out unopened out of ignorance.

Good luck with that. This is America after all. Ignorance has been elevated to a status symbol in recent months.

471 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:41:55am

re: #452 Obdicut

I still think those outliers are rather more definitive than you think.

Southern Baptists aren't small, and they spread a lot of antisemitism around. Take a look at that link.

re: #447 Decatur Deb

Sorry, but the conversion manual is totally antisemetic;

Jews don't engage in conversion, and it is hard to convey to a non-Jew just how amazingly offensive it is. Even when they're not praying for us to be non-materialistic and claiming Jews don't actually have faith anyway.

The statement, qualified as "general" with outliers rather than comprehensive, remains true as written above. And it's a positive outlier in the face of so much pure venom encountered in so many other countries.

472 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:42:17am

re: #87 Dragon_Lady

Haven't gotten one yet. RWC thinks I should apply with the census bureau. Yeah, like I want to go walking about and knocking on a bunch of strangers doors. Been there, done that, not doing it again!

I did that in the summer of 1990. Worst job I ever had, but when you're a college student, $10/hour sounds liek great money. Now it's $20/hour, but I wouldn't do it again.

473 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:42:45am

re: #469 Dragon_Lady

Haven't gotten one yet. RWC thinks I should apply with the census bureau. Yeah, like I want to go walking about and knocking on a bunch of strangers doors. Been there, done that, not doing it again!

not EVEN gonna ask what you were ,,, ummm,, sellin' door to door!

// DUCKIN!!

474 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:43:00am

re: #464 Decatur Deb

The format of that is messed up.

475 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:43:09am

re: #465 Hengineer

Its fairly easy to herd them when you're carrying a can of tuna or canned cat food. Just tap the lid (assuming they know the sound) and they will come running right to you.

I use the pounce treats, just shake the bag and they come running. At least until they figure out I want them to go inside...

476 Hengineer  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:43:14am

re: #467 sattv4u2

Who do you think the gov't hired to stuff the letters and put them on your porch!?!?!
//

ACORN?
//

477 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:43:39am

re: #464 Decatur Deb

Here is the correction:

I agree it is going to be seen as anti-semitic from the target side. But there is also an innocent impulse for evangelists: "I have the best thing in the universe, and I want to give it to you."

(ex-Catholic here. Catholics are low-temperature evangelists, see a mission to convert everyone.)

478 darthstar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:43:41am

re: #475 Dragon_Lady

Pounce = Kitty crack.

479 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:43:55am

re: #473 sattv4u2

not EVEN gonna ask what you were ,,, ummm,, sellin' door to door!

// DUCKIN!!

Ding dong, Avon calling! Never, ever again!

480 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:43:57am

re: #464 Decatur Deb

I do see the innocent impulse, but they're spreading lies about Jews with it. Including that we are somehow materialistic, and that most Jews aren't really faithful.

Plus, people used to use the same excuse (we're just trying to save you!) to put us to death, so it's a touchy subject, to say the least.

481 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:44:22am

re: #479 Dragon_Lady

Ding dong, Avon calling! Never, ever again!

yeah ,, nice front!!!!
//

482 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:44:38am

re: #458 Dragon_Lady

I get to herd the two I have back into the apartment after exploration trips into the hallway. Though the one usually just wants to run a patrol loop to sniff doorways and comes back in on his own.

I think the real trick with mine is the send them out hungry. Then when it's clear that a snack is in the works they are motivated to return home. Though with indoor/outdoor cats that might be an incentive for them to go hunting.

Our family cat way back when used to annoy my mother by complaining and carrying on until food was put in the dish. the cat would sniff the food to verify it was sound, and *then* go outside to hunt knowing that there was a supply on hand in case things did not work out successfully.

483 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:44:40am

re: #452 Obdicut

I still think those outliers are rather more definitive than you think.

Southern Baptists aren't small, and they spread a lot of antisemitism around. Take a look at that link.

re: #447 Decatur Deb

Sorry, but the conversion manual is totally antisemetic;


Jews don't engage in conversion, and it is hard to convey to a non-Jew just how amazingly offensive it is. Even when they're not praying for us to be non-materialistic and claiming Jews don't actually have faith anyway.

The closest thing to a "missionary Judaism" I ever encountered was a bit on the news long ago, about a group that went on speaking tours exhorting nonbelieveing Jews to return to the faith.

484 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:44:48am

Don't forget, folks.. it's all about perspective

485 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:45:29am

re: #471 Aceofwhat?

Sure, I'll grant that the US hasn't killed many Jews recently or stolen their property, etc. But antisemitism in the US is still strong, and it is not only with the far-left, by any means.

And this whole "make the government Christian" thing is, frankly, horrifying to Jews, religious ones and secular. It does not tend to make Jews feel safe.

486 darthstar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:45:37am

re: #484 cliffster

Don't forget, folks.. it's all about perspective

That guy's a dick.

487 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:45:39am

re: #469 Dragon_Lady

Haven't gotten one yet. RWC thinks I should apply with the census bureau. Yeah, like I want to go walking about and knocking on a bunch of strangers doors. Been there, done that, not doing it again!

Hey D-L-- I know 'community organising' is bad words here, but take a look on the census site for all the approved partners for the census. There are loads of outreach groups where all you might do is send mail, make calls, etc.
It's probably too late but worth a look. good luck!!

488 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:47:40am

re: #469 Dragon_Lady

I got one as well.

Also mysteriously got two text messages on my cell phone claiming I'd won $900,000 and just had to contact some goofy email address. Yeah, right.

489 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:48:15am

re: #483 The Sanity Inspector

Heh. Yeah. I get that, and it's always done very respectfully. I do actually hang out with a bunch of rabbis and other scholars every once in awhile, who ever-so-subtly imply that maybe I'd enjoy actually trying out going through the rituals and being part of a minyan.

I think that's the biggest cultural divide between Christians and Jews, and not a lot of Christians really understand the deep antipathy Jews have for conversion; it comes both through the religion, and through history.

490 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:48:23am

re: #482 oaktree

I get to herd the two I have back into the apartment after exploration trips into the hallway. Though the one usually just wants to run a patrol loop to sniff doorways and comes back in on his own.

I think the real trick with mine is the send them out hungry. Then when it's clear that a snack is in the works they are motivated to return home. Though with indoor/outdoor cats that might be an incentive for them to go hunting.

Our family cat way back when used to annoy my mother by complaining and carrying on until food was put in the dish. the cat would sniff the food to verify it was sound, and *then* go outside to hunt knowing that there was a supply on hand in case things did not work out successfully.

I had a Siamese that did that, the jackrabbits were plentiful in our neighborhood at that time and you could count on seeing one on the porch at least once a week. Interestingly enough she never ate them, just left them on the doorstep. Thank you presents we figured.

491 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:49:04am

re: #485 Obdicut

Sure, I'll grant that the US hasn't killed many Jews recently or stolen their property, etc. But antisemitism in the US is still strong, and it is not only with the far-left, by any means.

And this whole "make the government Christian" thing is, frankly, horrifying to Jews, religious ones and secular. It does not tend to make Jews feel safe.

How much political and moral support have the Jewish faith, race, and state received in the past 50 years?

492 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:49:28am

re: #480 Obdicut

I do see the innocent impulse, but they're spreading lies about Jews with it. Including that we are somehow materialistic, and that most Jews aren't really faithful.

Plus, people used to use the same excuse (we're just trying to save you!) to put us to death, so it's a touchy subject, to say the least.

I find most "missions" to anyone of another religion offensive, but, where in that article did anyone call Jews "materialistic?"

What other lies were being spread according to that article, or are you referring to something else in general?

493 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:49:57am

re: #423 Walter L. Newton

The Penguin in Batman Returns.

494 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:50:12am

re: #480 Obdicut

I'm not familar with the Baptist missionary manual, though that might be sourced to only one of their sub-groups. I'm way familiar with auto da fe thinking.

495 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:50:41am

re: #488 oaktree

I got one as well.

Also mysteriously got two text messages on my cell phone claiming I'd won $900,000 and just had to contact some goofy email address. Yeah, right.

you ought to be able to contact your provider about that. emails are free, wheareas you're paying something for your text message service. that happened to me a few times and they shut down the sender (and told me how to block someone, too).

496 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:50:52am

re: #475 Dragon_Lady

I use the pounce treats, just shake the bag and they come running. At least until they figure out I want them to go inside...

That's always been a good one with cats.

One of mine is stone deaf now - so it doesn't work so good.

There are a number of other interesting behavioral changes as well. Much harder to trigger play reflexes with cat toys since it appears a solid part of the "ooo... small chewy prey" triggering is sound related.

497 The Left  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:51:13am

re: #493 prairiefire

The Penguin in Batman Returns.

AHAHAHAHA-- favourited. Cheers!

Later folks.

498 Hengineer  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:51:29am

re: #491 Aceofwhat?

How much political and moral support have the Jewish faith, race, and state received in the past 502000 years?

499 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:51:36am

re: #497 iceweasel

AHAHAHAHA-- favourited. Cheers!

Later folks.

peace

500 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:51:37am

re: #493 prairiefire

The Penguin in Batman Returns.

No... Alex in "A Clockwork Orange." Cuddly little film, wasn't it?

501 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:52:02am

re: #473 sattv4u2

not EVEN gonna ask what you were ,,, ummm,, sellin' door to door!

// DUCKIN!!

I was selling Avon when I was 18, my Mom didn't like me going door to door and one lady's husband took a real liking to me and started calling and asking me out on a regular basis. At least he did until my Dad answered the phone and told him to stop calling... Threatened to tell the guys wife he was bugging me. He never called me again, thank God!

502 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:52:36am

re: #498 Hengineer

well, that takes me juuust a bit outside of my point.

503 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:52:40am

re: #501 Dragon_Lady

men are pigs.

504 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:52:41am

re: #488 oaktree

I got one as well.

Also mysteriously got two text messages on my cell phone claiming I'd won $900,000 and just had to contact some goofy email address. Yeah, right.

Damn. I just got a message on my self phone that I forgot to pay the last bill. I like yours better.

505 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:52:53am

re: #501 Dragon_Lady

eww

506 Hengineer  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:53:02am

re: #502 Aceofwhat?

well, that takes me juuust a bit outside of my point.

Heh sorry?

507 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:53:13am

re: #491 Aceofwhat?

The US has been a good ally to Israel, though their partnership with Saudi Arabia and other states in the area is rather difficult to swallow. But Jews are not Israel.

I'm not really sure what 'moral support' is, unless you mean supporting Israel's actions. Other than that, I don't know what moral support would mean.

Political support for Jews in the US has been increasingly good ever since World War II, but is now getting worrying again with the rise of Dominionists and the Paulinites.

The US has been the best home for the Jews other than a few isolated countries, but that does not mean that the US doesn't also have large forces of antisemitism at work.

In other words: I think the US has done the best at not being antisemitic, but that's still an award for not being an asshole.

508 Hengineer  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:53:15am

re: #503 cliffster

men are pigs.

Oink

509 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:53:27am

re: #504 Jadespring

oh my. CELL not self!

510 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:53:29am

re: #492 Walter L. Newton

I quoted the part, Walter.

511 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:53:36am

re: #500 Walter L. Newton

I hear Danny DeVito in my head saying that, for some reason.

512 darthstar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:53:47am

re: #501 Dragon_Lady

I was selling Avon when I was 18, my Mom didn't like me going door to door and one lady's husband took a real liking to me and started calling and asking me out on a regular basis. At least he did until my Dad answered the phone and told him to stop calling... Threatened to tell the guys wife he was bugging me. He never called me again, thank God!

I'd have gone to his house and said to his wife, "My daughter needs to cancel her date with your husband."

513 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:55:32am

re: #503 cliffster

men are pigs.

Well crap, that's unfortunate to hear, because I love bacon, and I don't want to be a cannibal.

514 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:55:57am

re: #510 Obdicut

I quoted the part, Walter.

Got it, you did, I spelt it wrong when I was searching the article. That quote is really wrong.

515 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:56:08am

re: #503 cliffster

men are pigs.

re: #505 Aceofwhat?

eww

re: #508 Hengineer

Oink

re: #512 darthstar

I'd have gone to his house and said to his wife, "My daughter needs to cancel her date with your husband."

Oh, I like you guys! LOL!! Up ding for you all! :-)

516 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:56:19am

re: #494 Decatur Deb

The ADL has done a good job of chronicling the badness of the Southern Baptists. The conversion thing really is-- it can't be explained, but to Jews it exists as far more of an existential threat than secularism.

[Link: www.adl.org...]

[Link: www.adl.org...]

517 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:57:18am

re: #507 Obdicut

In the international competition, "Not Being an Asshole" is the highest award.

518 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:57:42am

re: #509 Jadespring

oh my. CELL not self!

I like self, personally...! Upding for the boo boo! :-)

520 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:57:54am

re: #516 Obdicut

I think more than Jews can find the conversion/evangelism thing annoying and insulting.

521 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:58:29am

Batman Returns:

522 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:58:30am

re: #477 Decatur Deb

Here is the correction:

I agree it is going to be seen as anti-semitic from the target side. But there is also an innocent impulse for evangelists: "I have the best thing in the universe, and I want to give it to you."

(ex-Catholic here. Catholics are low-temperature evangelists, see a mission to convert everyone.)

My answer: "I already have it, and you got it from me."

523 darthstar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:58:38am

re: #514 Walter L. Newton

Got it, you did, I spelt spelled it wrong when I was searching the article. That quote is really wrong.


Sorry...that's one that always sticks in my craw.

524 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:58:51am

re: #131 MrSilverDragon

Well crap, that's unfortunate to hear, because I love bacon, and I don't want to be a cannibal.

Check out something I posted before, Bluesman Lightnin' Pigkins.

525 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:59:06am

re: #495 Aceofwhat?

you ought to be able to contact your provider about that. emails are free, wheareas you're paying something for your text message service. that happened to me a few times and they shut down the sender (and told me how to block someone, too).

Good advice. I'll keep that in mind if another one shows up.

526 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:59:43am

re: #516 Obdicut

The ADL has done a good job of chronicling the badness of the Southern Baptists. The conversion thing really is-- it can't be explained, but to Jews it exists as far more of an existential threat than secularism.

[Link: www.adl.org...]

[Link: www.adl.org...]

Well, if you believe Bob is at risk of eternal damnation, and someone decides that they're not going to try and save Bob, it's reasonable to say that that that someone is anti-Bob...

527 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 7:59:55am

re: #523 darthstar

Sorry...that's one that always sticks in my craw.

I did that on purpose, so of a self-effacing humor, since I made a spelling mistake to start with. Checked your humor at the door today?

528 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:00:07am
529 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:00:21am

re: #522 Alouette

My answer: "I already have it, and you got it from me."

masterfully done!

530 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:00:50am

re: #485 Obdicut

Sure, I'll grant that the US hasn't killed many Jews recently or stolen their property, etc. But antisemitism in the US is still strong, and it is not only with the far-left, by any means.

And this whole "make the government Christian" thing is, frankly, horrifying to Jews, religious ones and secular. It does not tend to make Jews feel safe.

That Podhoretz book I mentioned upthread has some good background on those concerns, too.

531 darthstar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:01:04am

re: #527 Walter L. Newton

I did that on purpose, so of a self-effacing humor, since I made a spelling mistake to start with. Checked your humor at the door today?

Let me go look...

532 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:01:38am

re: #525 oaktree

Good advice. I'll keep that in mind if another one shows up.

My cell phone has a function that'll block both texts and calls. You might want to look in the functions of yours and see if you have it too... I found mine by mistake and its real handy! Great function, couldn't live without it.

533 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:01:41am

Okay ,,, Home Depot beckons ,,
BBL

534 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:02:13am

re: #507 Obdicut

The US has been a good ally to Israel, though their partnership with Saudi Arabia and other states in the area is rather difficult to swallow. But Jews are not Israel.

What is the best way to describe a person, political body, or creed that is staunchly Anti-Israel?

535 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:02:31am

re: #150 Dragon_Lady

My cell phone has a function that'll block both texts and calls. You might want to look in the functions of yours and see if you have it too... I found mine by mistake and its real handy! Great function, couldn't live without it.

I just don't answer the phone if I don't know who's calling. If it's important, whoever is calling will leave a voicemail.

536 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:03:09am

Ultra-Efficient Gas Engine Passes Test

Transonic Combustion, a startup based in Camarillo, CA, has developed a fuel-injection system it says can improve the efficiency of gasoline engines by more than 50 percent. A test vehicle equipped with the technology gets 64 miles per gallon in highway driving, which is far better than more costly gas-electric hybrids, such as the Prius, which gets 48 miles per gallon on the highway.

537 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:03:43am
538 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:04:30am

Too good for the spinoffs:

JUAREZ -- Cecilia Juarez, 22, incarcerated for drug trafficking, was crowned Miss Captive Beauty 2010 during a pageant for the women inmates at the Cereso prison in Juárez.

Municipal authorities organized the pageant, dubbed "Belleza Cautiva," or captive beauty, as part of the International Day of the Woman.

The jury chose the most beautiful inmate among 15 participants.

Juarez won the title by unanimous decision. She has been imprisoned for two months on drug charges and awaits sentencing.

She's pretty....pretty bad!

No mention of a plea or a trial, hmmmm.

Yes, there's a photo at the link. Oh, wait, there's a link there to several more photos.

539 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:05:31am

re: #532 Dragon_Lady

Why is it with all these new hig technology devices the best feature is how much you can turn off?

540 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:05:34am

re: #535 Mad Al-Jaffee

I just don't answer the phone if I don't know who's calling. If it's important, whoever is calling will leave a voicemail.

Me too, but I had a guy calling my phone every morning for three days straight with some pretty dirty suggestions, he even left messages! So I just blocked him. No more dirty man calls! Love that call blocker!

541 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:05:49am

re: #532 Dragon_Lady

Good morning, Dragon Lady, how are you?
Does your cable/satellite co. carry the Jewelry TV channel?
They use footage of jewelery making. I wondered if RCW had ever talked to them.

542 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:06:02am

"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."

The fire-bombing of Dresden, for example, took years to seep into the British and American consciousness, and even now there are those who think it was justified.

543 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:06:06am

re: #536 cliffster

Be interesting is seeing what sort of efficiency one could get combining that tech *with* a gas/electric hybrid.

544 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:06:28am

And on that cheery note, good morning, all!

545 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:06:37am

re: #541 prairiefire

Sorry, PIMF RWC

546 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:06:52am

re: #543 oaktree

Be interesting is seeing what sort of efficiency one could get combining that tech *with* a gas/electric hybrid.

Well, I noticed it didn't go into the raw horsepower generated. Us Texans will have a hard time adopting technology that doesn't allow us to haul heavy shit around.

547 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:07:20am

re: #538 wrenchwench

Too good for the spinoffs:

She's pretty...pretty bad!

No mention of a plea or a trial, hmmm.

Yes, there's a photo at the link. Oh, wait, there's a link there to several more photos.

This is good for a prisoners self esteem.

548 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:07:25am

re: #542 Cato the Elder

The horrible excess of War.

549 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:07:46am

re: #106 Spockista

We are not all kids in black hoodies living in parking garages.

Chomsky I am sure lives better than I do...

Chomsky is not an anarchist. He's an idiot savant.

550 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:07:52am

re: #544 Cato the Elder

And on that cheery note, good morning, all!

good morning to you, old cato

551 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:07:55am

re: #540 Dragon_Lady

Me too, but I had a guy calling my phone every morning for three days straight with some pretty dirty suggestions, he even left messages! So I just blocked him. No more dirty man calls! Love that call blocker!

wow. between that and the dirty husband from above...quite the creepmagnet you have going on there! eww²

552 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:08:14am

re: #534 Aceofwhat?

What is the best way to describe a person, political body, or creed that is staunchly Anti-Israel?

Neturei Karta, at the risk of being snide.

553 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:08:29am

re: #541 prairiefire
Hello!
I have not talked to them.

554 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:08:34am

re: #546 cliffster

Well, I noticed it didn't go into the raw horsepower generated. Us Texans will have a hard time adopting technology that doesn't allow us to haul heavy shit around.

Not just Texans. Some people everywhere need to haul heavy shit around.
Like me for instance.

555 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:09:30am

re: #541 prairiefire

Good morning, Dragon Lady, how are you?
Does your cable/satellite co. carry the Jewelry TV channel?
They use footage of jewelery making. I wondered if RCW had ever talked to them.

Hey I good! Happy Tuesday to you! How are you?
As for RWC and the jewelry channel, you can ask him yourself, he's logged in and I'm sure he'll tell you. He's done so many Q&A's I don't bother to keep track anymore. :-)

556 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:09:45am

re: #554 Jadespring

Not just Texans. Some people everywhere need to haul heavy shit around.
Like me for instance.

Heavy shit is bigger and heavier in Texas

557 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:10:21am

re: #556 cliffster

Heavy shit is bigger and heavier in Texas

Link?

/// ;)

558 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:10:45am

So, has Glenn Beck bowed to the mighty wrath of Shrieks and her brave little band of anti-jihadists and retracted his statement about Wilders yet?

559 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:10:54am

re: #483 The Sanity Inspector

That would be Chabad. They see it as their mission to get less observant Jews to become more observant and to understand their religious and cultural heritage. Some other groups, like Aish operate educational programs, but aren't proselytizing Christians to become Jews. It's about reconnecting Jews to their Jewish roots.

560 Locker  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:11:24am

re: #419 iceweasel

Prog by name, Prog by nature!

Anti-beck tshirt: Once you go prog, you don't boil frogs.

Make Prog not War.

Ok so I updated my info tag with that frog quote. You rock.

561 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:11:35am

re: #536 cliffster

Hey, my employer sold them some very exotic wire for that engine. It was interesting working with their engineer. Thanks for the link!! We sold them the wire a year ago and can only hope they sell lots of them.

562 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:11:45am

re: #534 Aceofwhat?

The depends. Are they anti-Isreal's existence because they don't think Jews should have a country?

Are they anti-Israel because they believe untrue things about Israel's foreign and domestic policy?

Most people who are 'staunchly' anti-Israel are antisemitic, and being 'staunchly' anti-Israel is definitely an antisemitic position. However, I know a lot of people who are anti-Israel reflexively because they believe untrue things about Israel's actions, and who do not have anything against US Jews.

It kind of depends on what you mean by 'staunchly'. There are Israeli Jews who think that some of Israel's policies-- like the one on marriage-- are completely wrongheaded. That's not antisemitic.

If the person or body is against anything Israel because Israel is doing it, they're almost certainly an antisemite whether they know it or not.

564 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:12:15am

re: #546 cliffster

Yes. How it scales from their test engine to fit various needs will be interesting. Might not scale well to "big" engines, and I note in the article that there might well be engine wear issues involved. That would have a definite effect on expense as "new" engines might require much stiffer tolerances, or more exotic alloys in building in order to stand up. (Or simply require a lot more maintenance.)

If something like this does go wide-range in the next few years I do wonder if the American auto industry is going to try to go heavy SUV/pickup again since you could not get a 20-25mpg version. Personally, I'd stick to something with a smaller footprint still. (I don't need to haul heavy loads often, if at all.)

566 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:12:42am

re: #552 Decatur Deb

Neturei Karta, at the risk of being snide.

Eh. A ship is safe in the harbor...but that's not what ships are for. Take the risk-

On the other hand, I've not heard of the Neturei Karta being overly supportive of Palestinian methods of disbanding the Jewish state...but it might be because i'm not looking hard enough.

567 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:13:31am

re: #563 Walter L. Newton

You'd think an actor would value freedom of speech a little bit more, even if he thinks that it's a flat-out-lie.

Chavez isn't a complete dictator yet, but it's obvious he wants to be one and will not stop until he's achieved complete dictatorial control.

568 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:13:55am

re: #536 cliffster

Ultra-Efficient Gas Engine Passes Test

Then, there's the Ford Mustang, which in the 2011 model year will have a 300 hp engine that gets 30 mpg on highway - the first ever 300+ hp engine to do so well on mileage. It would get 19mpg city driving and combined 25mpg.


2011 Ford Mustang V6 – first car to break 300 hp and over 30 mpg
03/04/2010, 12:05 AM
By Mark Kleis

Ford has announced the official fuel economy numbers for the 2011 Mustang V6, and in doing so, stakes a claim to producing the world’s first car to produce over 300 horsepower while also achieving over 30 miles per gallon (EPA). The 2011 Mustang 3.7-liter V6 with six-speed automatic is officially rated at 305 hp and 31 highway miles per gallon.

When Ford first made the claim that they intended to introduce vehicles that were leaders in fuel economy in every segment moving forward, the world largely dismissed the suggestion as nothing more than typical puffery by executives. Ford then introduced the 2010 Ford Fusion – with the most fuel efficient four and six-cylinder engines, as well as the most fuel efficient hybrid offering in the class. Still, the Fusion was nothing more than a single example – until the 2011 Ford Fiesta numbers were released – and put the small car several miles per gallon above anything currently in the class – with 40 miles per gallon highway on Fiesta SFE.

Yet another reason to look at Ford for those suffering from their midlife crises and in need of a pony car.

569 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:13:59am

re: #547 Walter L. Newton

This is good for a prisoners self esteem.

It was good for one prisoner's self esteem--she got ALL the votes.

570 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:14:03am

re: #561 Rightwingconspirator

Hey, my employer sold them some very exotic wire for that engine. It was interesting working with their engineer. Thanks for the link!! We sold them the wire a year ago and can only hope they sell lots of them.

That's pretty cool. Good conversation starter you have there - What do you do for a living? I make exotic wire.

571 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:14:03am

re: #553 Rightwingconspirator

In between the hyper sales periods that are like HSN or such, they will run little mini docs on mining, certain gems, lots of things. I have not ordered many rings from them as they use 10K settings. But I have ordered some beautiful 5-6 cwt Blue Topazes, plus 10 cwt and 50 cwt parcels of loose semi precious stones.
I don't know if they do all of their video production in house or not.
This is their website:[Link: www.jtv.com...]

572 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:14:50am

re: #567 Obdicut

You'd think an actor would value freedom of speech a little bit more, even if he thinks that it's a flat-out-lie.

Chavez isn't a complete dictator yet, but it's obvious he wants to be one and will not stop until he's achieved complete dictatorial control.

Agreed.

573 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:14:54am

re: #568 lawhawk

Yet another reason to look at Ford for those suffering from their midlife crises and in need of a pony car.

I've been a GM man all my life, but I have to admit, Ford has been innovating like crazy.

574 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:15:16am

re: #562 Obdicut

Then the converse would hold - which is different than what you implied - that being staunchly pro-Israel can be converted into at least partial credit for being supportive of the Jewish faith and race.

575 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:15:20am

re: #569 wrenchwench

It was good for one prisoner's self esteem--she got ALL the votes.

She was the only one in the pageant?

576 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:15:24am

re: #551 Aceofwhat?

wow. between that and the dirty husband from above...quite the creepmagnet you have going on there! eww²

Oh yeah, such are the joy's of living in good old sunny southern California. We have a lovely little joke about Los Angeles, it goes like this;

Los Angeles is like a bowl of granola; what ain't fruits and nuts is flakes! Pour the milk!

Ain't it the truth? ;-)

578 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:16:08am

re: #568 lawhawk

I'm pretty impressed all around with Ford lately. I think I'll be buying my second Ford soon.

579 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:16:30am

re: #575 Walter L. Newton

She was the only one in the pageant?

Nope:

The jury chose the most beautiful inmate among 15 participants.

Juarez won the title by unanimous decision. She has been imprisoned for two months on drug charges and awaits sentencing.

580 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:16:43am

re: #567 Obdicut

You'd think an actor would value freedom of speech a little bit more, even if he thinks that it's a flat-out-lie.

Chavez isn't a complete dictator yet, but it's obvious he wants to be one and will not stop until he's achieved complete dictatorial control.

to say nothing of his apparently increasing antisemitic credentials...

581 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:16:50am

Morning folks,

Just wanted to say thanks to the lizards who mentioned the Census jobs. I called this morning & their still hiring here. I'm signed up for the test on Thursday. Now where'd I put that DD-214 (+5 points ;) ...?

William

582 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:17:35am

re: #179 Rightwingconspirator

Hey, my employer sold them some very exotic wire for that engine. It was interesting working with their engineer. Thanks for the link!! We sold them the wire a year ago and can only hope they sell lots of them.

The engine runs on exotic wine? :)

583 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:17:38am

re: #573 thedopefishlives

I've been a GM man all my life, but I have to admit, Ford has been innovating like crazy.

I'm a Ford woman for working vehicles and Honda woman for everyday use ones.

584 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:17:53am

re: #578 cliffster

I'm pretty impressed all around with Ford lately. I think I'll be buying my second Ford soon.

I'm thinking to buy a med size truck soon, I'm liking the FORD myself.

585 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:18:20am

Sigh. PIMF: their =/= they're

I need more coffee.

William

586 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:18:38am

re: #419 iceweasel

Prog by name, Prog by nature!

Anti-beck tshirt: Once you go prog, you don't boil frogs.

Make Prog not War.

If you put a Prog in boiling water, she will jump out. If you put a Prog in cold water and gradually increase the temperature, she will demand that you hurry it up till it's at nice pond level.

Progs want everyone to be comfortable.

587 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:19:50am

re: #534 Aceofwhat?

What is the best way to describe a person, political body, or creed that is staunchly Anti-Israel?

Jew haters.

588 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:20:16am

re: #581 wlewisiii

Morning folks,

Just wanted to say thanks to the lizards who mentioned the Census jobs. I called this morning & their still hiring here. I'm signed up for the test on Thursday. Now where'd I put that DD-214 (+5 points ;) ...?

William

I have an appointment tomorrow. I thought they were "testing" to gauge your ability to do the job, not things like military status and other niche qualities. So, candidates fare better if they are ex-military?

For some reason that bothers me.

589 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:20:18am

re: #570 cliffster

When industry needs an exotic alloy in precious metals, truly odd blends not just pure platinum or Pt/Ir my employer is one of the best. Or when they are stuck working with precious metals and have no clue about how they will behave, they call me. There is very little in steel or aluminum work that helps with precious metals.

590 Locker  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:21:15am

re: #581 wlewisiii

Morning folks,

Just wanted to say thanks to the lizards who mentioned the Census jobs. I called this morning & their still hiring here. I'm signed up for the test on Thursday. Now where'd I put that DD-214 (+5 points ;) ...?

William

I hope you find it. Mine was in a briefcase that was stolen out of a car and it took Veteran's affairs five years to get me a new one. True story.

591 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:22:01am

re: #582 Mad Al-Jaffee

Now that would be a hybrid I would buy!

592 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:22:03am

re: #587 Alouette

Jew haters.

I would agree. To me, then, it follows that the converse, i.e. a body that is strongly supportive of Israel, is also supportive of the Jewish race and faith in general.

593 Locker  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:22:38am

re: #588 Walter L. Newton

I have an appointment tomorrow. I thought they were "testing" to gauge your ability to do the job, not things like military status and other niche qualities. So, candidates fare better if they are ex-military?

For some reason that bothers me.

Don't know about this job but you get 5 to 10 bonus points on state exams for being a veteran. It's just a veteran benefit, not about skill or anything.

594 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:22:39am

re: #582 Mad Al-Jaffee

The engine runs on exotic wine? :)

Fuck that. The wine is for me.

595 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:22:47am

re: #588 Walter L. Newton

I have an appointment tomorrow. I thought they were "testing" to gauge your ability to do the job, not things like military status and other niche qualities. So, candidates fare better if they are ex-military?

For some reason that bothers me.

Not sure about temp jobs. For full time civil service jobs, vets get a slight scoring advantage (5 points, ten points if war-disabled).

596 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:22:57am

re: #574 Aceofwhat?

Then the converse would hold - which is different than what you implied - that being staunchly pro-Israel can be converted into at least partial credit for being supportive of the Jewish faith and race.

I'm not sure how that works. Israel should also be supported by the US because it's a free democracy surrounded by dictators, oligarchies, and theocracies. I take your point, which is that the US is willing to say openly that attacks on Israel are motivated by hatred of Jews, and that is good of the US to do-- but what would you think of the US if it didn't?

I think that people in the US think that Israel is slightly more dependent on the US for protection than it actually is, also.

I'm not trying to bag on the US-- I love this country-- or Christians, really. I'm just pointing out that the world as a whole, including the US and Christians, still has huge streaks of antisemitism in them, and that recently in the US there has been a movement towards more aggressive forms of Christianity that are very worrying to the US Jewish community. I'm sorry if anything I've said sounds at all harsh.

597 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:22:59am

re: #590 Locker

I hope you find it. Mine was in a briefcase that was stolen out of a car and it took Veteran's affairs five years to get me a new one. True story.

I'll comment the same...

I have an appointment tomorrow. I thought they were "testing" to gauge your ability to do the job, not things like military status and other niche qualities. So, candidates fare better if they are ex-military?

For some reason that bothers me.

The census agency evidently is not an EOE?

598 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:25:07am

re: #581 wlewisiii

Morning folks,

Just wanted to say thanks to the lizards who mentioned the Census jobs. I called this morning & their still hiring here. I'm signed up for the test on Thursday. Now where'd I put that DD-214 (+5 points ;) ...?

William

The pay is pretty good too. I asked a census guy here in Portland what they pay. As I recall it was something like $15 an hour. Maybe more.

599 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:25:07am

re: #588 Walter L. Newton

I have an appointment tomorrow. I thought they were "testing" to gauge your ability to do the job, not things like military status and other niche qualities. So, candidates fare better if they are ex-military?

For some reason that bothers me.

Sorry Walter. I do know it's been that way for a long time - my father's post-Korea but pre-Vietnam era service qualified for bonus points back in the 70's.

William

600 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:26:00am

re: #599 wlewisiii

Sorry Walter. I do know it's been that way for a long time - my father's post-Korea but pre-Vietnam era service qualified for bonus points back in the 70's.

William

You don't have to be sorry, it's not your fault.

601 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:26:14am

re: #216 Killgore Trout

The pay is pretty good too. I asked a census guy here in Portland what they pay. As I recall it was something like $15 an hour. Maybe more.

It's $20/hour in DC.

602 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:26:36am

re: #590 Locker

I hope you find it. Mine was in a briefcase that was stolen out of a car and it took Veteran's affairs five years to get me a new one. True story.

Worst case, I can drive to my hometown - as the county seat I registered it when I first got out. I have a certified copy around here somewhere but they still have the original.

William

603 Locker  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:27:01am

re: #599 wlewisiii

Sorry Walter. I do know it's been that way for a long time - my father's post-Korea but pre-Vietnam era service qualified for bonus points back in the 70's.

William

I'm not sorry. I served, I got shot at and I'm happy that it's recognized and earned me a little good will on the come back.

604 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:27:14am

re: #597 Walter L. Newton

Ex-military get preferential employment for a large number of what I consider very good reasons.

605 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:28:02am

re: #601 Mad Al-Jaffee

It's $20/hour in DC.

How much do they have to pay the bodyguard they'll need if they're wandering around DC?

606 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:28:38am

re: #605 RogueOne

How much do they have to pay the bodyguard they'll need if they're wandering around DC?

Oh, very good question! It's one to ponder...

607 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:28:42am

re: #603 Locker

Locker, I did not know you were a veteran. Thank you for your service!

608 badger1970  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:28:44am

re: #601 Mad Al-Jaffee

Does that include a Kevlar vest? //

609 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:29:01am

re: #605 RogueOne

How much do they have to pay the bodyguard they'll need if they're wandering around DC?

It's only 11 dollars an hour in my area (Colorado).

610 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:29:36am

re: #597 Walter L. Newton

Here's the DOL explanation of veteran's preference for federal jobs.

[Link: www.opm.gov...]

611 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:29:46am

re: #607 prairiefire

Locker, I did not know you were a veteran. Thank you for your service!

I agree, thank you!

And upding for the thank you!

612 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:29:46am

re: #604 Obdicut

Ex-military get preferential employment for a large number of what I consider very good reasons.

The basic argument, beyond their service, is that young vets interrupted their education and career paths, putting themselves at competitive disadvantage.

613 Locker  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:29:48am

re: #607 prairiefire

Locker, I did not know you were a veteran. Thank you for your service!

You are very welcome. I had it a lot easier in Iraq (first gulf war) the guys did on the 2nd pass. They had the hard road, no doubt.

614 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:30:01am

re: #604 Obdicut

Ex-military get preferential employment for a large number of what I consider very good reasons.

I don't think there's ever been a time when I thought to myself, "hmm, I don't think it's right that that guy who gave years of his life and risked everything to protect me should get such-and such or so-and-so"

615 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:30:16am

re: #596 Obdicut

I'm not trying to bag on the US-- I love this country-- or Christians, really. I'm just pointing out that the world as a whole, including the US and Christians, still has huge streaks of antisemitism in them, and that recently in the US there has been a movement towards more aggressive forms of Christianity that are very worrying to the US Jewish community. I'm sorry if anything I've said sounds at all harsh.

Don't worry, you didn't appear to have bags. I think that philosemitism (see what i did there) might accurately be described as on the rise here, in stark contrast to much of the rest of the world, with some exceptions that (to me) stand out more each decade.

I think it's harder to be a casually antisemitic Christian here than it was 30 years ago - making it easier to pick out the idiots in our midst.

Politically, though, I think this is one of the few racial topics where modern Republicans have a better track record. Votes like this abound...

616 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:30:31am

re: #609 Walter L. Newton

It's only 11 dollars an hour in my area (Colorado).

That surprises me. I would have figured they would have taken cost of living into account.

617 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:30:56am

re: #587 Alouette

Jew haters.

And their useful idiots.

618 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:30:57am

Earth vs Mars in the Olypics

MARS, ARE YOU EVEN TRYING?

619 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:31:10am

One of Orwell's finer quotes IMHO. Perhaps it lacks the visceral punch of "a boot stomping on a human face forever" but it's no less true.

620 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:31:35am

re: #612 Decatur Deb

And they totally did.

That reminds me of the great documentary on life on a carrier:

[Link: www.hulu.com...]

A very frank look at the conditions in which our servicemen and women serve. It's a little preachy in a way, but it shows the often terrible conditions that military members have to endure on service.

As their CO freely admits, in the end they're paid less than minimum wage.

621 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:31:58am

re: #597 Walter L. Newton

I'll comment the same...

I have an appointment tomorrow. I thought they were "testing" to gauge your ability to do the job, not things like military status and other niche qualities. So, candidates fare better if they are ex-military?

For some reason that bothers me.

The census agency evidently is not an EOE?

Eh...at great risk, i humbly posit that "EOE" is rarely meant to be taken in a wholly literal sense, although often for very defensible reasons.

622 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:32:05am

re: #612 Decatur Deb

The basic argument, beyond their service, is that young vets interrupted their education and career paths, putting themselves at competitive disadvantage.

I see the reasoning behind that but I'm not sure I agree. In my case it definitely gave me a competitive advantage.

623 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:32:32am

re: #603 Locker

I'm not sorry. I served, I got shot at and I'm happy that it's recognized and earned me a little good will on the come back.

thank you, sincerely

624 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:34:28am

re: #615 Aceofwhat?

Don't worry, you didn't appear to have bags. I think that philosemitism (see what i did there) might accurately be described as on the rise here, in stark contrast to much of the rest of the world, with some exceptions that (to me) stand out more each decade.

I think it's harder to be a casually antisemitic Christian here than it was 30 years ago - making it easier to pick out the idiots in our midst.

Politically, though, I think this is one of the few racial topics where modern Republicans have a better track record. Votes like this abound...

What I worry about are the fascist "philosemites" and their useful idiots like Shrieks Geller who give Israel a bad name with their support for creatures like the EDL, etc.

625 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:34:33am

re: #620 Obdicut

I'll check that later. There was a great documentary shot on the Kennedy called "Second Home" IIRC. Gotta do some work. BBL

626 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:36:13am

re: #621 Aceofwhat?

Eh...at great risk, i humbly posit that "EOE" is rarely meant to be taken in a wholly literal sense, although often for very defensible reasons.

I understand that. It's just that during my 6 years stint here as a Professional Employment Applicant, I keep coming across more and more examples where qualifications and the ability to fulfill certain job qualifications has nothing to do with reality.

EOE is a nice platitude, rarely a realized concept.

Not complaining. And I really have no problems with vets getting some special consideration, I was just surprised.

627 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:36:19am

Well Ladies and Gents, my muse calls. I'm gonna go draw for a while. BBL! Have a great day and Keep Laughing! :-)

628 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:36:55am

re: #615 Aceofwhat?

I'm sorry, but US Jews remember the civil rights movement, and, in the modern day, as I said, the dominionist movement and the Paulites are incredibly worrying-- both of which are sourced in the Right.

Also, equating Jews with Israel is just not a good thing to do. Saying that US support for Israel is a 'racial topic' does not make me comfortable, either.

629 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:37:03am

re: #627 Dragon_Lady

Tell the muse I said hi.

630 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:37:16am

re: #615 Aceofwhat?

Don't worry, you didn't appear to have bags. I think that philosemitism (see what i did there) might accurately be described as on the rise here, in stark contrast to much of the rest of the world, with some exceptions that (to me) stand out more each decade.

I think it's harder to be a casually antisemitic Christian here than it was 30 years ago - making it easier to pick out the idiots in our midst.

Politically, though, I think this is one of the few racial topics where modern Republicans have a better track record. Votes like this abound...

If Republicans have such a better "track record" than why do American Jews overwhelmingly vote Democratic? What does a vote on a pointless resolution like the one you linked to exactly prove?

631 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:39:08am

re: #615 Aceofwhat?

I need to get my reading glasses checked...

I originally saw "phyllosemites" and wondered how that discussion was leaking into some sort of cooking reference.

Earlier I saw a ad at the page top for Arlen Spector and thought it said "Spectre". Which gave me an odd image or Arlen haunting Pennsylvania and draining energy levels from PA voters. (And I blame this on Varek Raith! :P {sarc})

632 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:39:08am

Interesting Op-ed found via Reason:

[Link: www.washingtonexaminer.com...]

Is Justice Scalia abandoning originalism?


Justice Antonin Scalia holds himself out as the patron saint of originalism, the idea that judges should interpret the Constitution according to its original public meaning. To do otherwise, he adds, is to succumb to government by black-robed philosopher-kings who fill the empty vessel of a “living Constitution” with their own policy preferences.

Last week, however, in a case building on Scalia’s own landmark opinion in District of Columbia v. Heller—which found that the Second Amendment protects an individual right—when the justice was faced with a golden opportunity to advance originalism, he blinked. And in rejecting originalism, Scalia cited the un-originalist reason that following a different—and clearly incorrect—line of precedent was “easier.”

The case at issue, McDonald v. Chicago, involves a challenge to Chicago’s gun ban and seeks to extend the right to keep and bear arms to the states—as nearly all other provisions in the Bill of Rights have been extended.

633 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:39:56am

re: #613 Locker

The prosecution of the first Iraq war made me more hawkish. The prosecution of the second Iraq war made me alarmed.

634 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:40:26am

On a side note, a good friend of mine is legally able to marry his life partner today in DC and he's rushing to do so. He's hurrying the wedding because he's worried about "the other shoe dropping". Wish I could've been there but I have to work.

I don't think I'll ever understand why gay marriage is so taboo.

635 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:40:26am

re: #601 Mad Al-Jaffee

It's $20/hour in DC.

Nice!

636 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:40:29am

re: #620 Obdicut

And they totally did.

That reminds me of the great documentary on life on a carrier:

[Link: www.hulu.com...]

A very frank look at the conditions in which our servicemen and women serve. It's a little preachy in a way, but it shows the often terrible conditions that military members have to endure on service.

As their CO freely admits, in the end they're paid less than minimum wage.

Highly recommend that documentary - Carrier.

637 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:40:47am

re: #628 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but US Jews remember the civil rights movement, and, in the modern day, as I said, the dominionist movement and the Paulites are incredibly worrying-- both of which are sourced in the Right.

Also, equating Jews with Israel is just not a good thing to do. Saying that US support for Israel is a 'racial topic' does not make me comfortable, either.

but antipathy for Israel is a racial topic, you said earlier. i'm just having a tough time understanding why that logic is stuck on a one-way street, that's all.

638 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:41:13am

re: #632 RogueOne

Interesting Op-ed found via Reason:

[Link: www.washingtonexaminer.com...]

Is Justice Scalia abandoning originalism?

It happens sometimes to older men.

Oh, wait. I thought you wrote "orgasms".

639 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:41:39am

re: #617 Cato the Elder

And their useful idiots.

There are always those who defend their anti-Israel positions by using the excuse that there are Israelis like "Peace Now" "J Street" "Gush Shalom" "Women in Black" and the ever-popular "Neturei Karta" share their views, so they can't possibly be "anti-Semitic."

But that is just an excuse.

640 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:41:58am

re: #630 drcordell

If Republicans have such a better "track record" than why do American Jews overwhelmingly vote Democratic? What does a vote on a pointless resolution like the one you linked to exactly prove?

what a fascinating question. forgive me for doubting in advance that you have the capacity to address it in a balanced fashion.

641 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:42:17am

re: #628 Obdicut

I'm sorry, but US Jews remember the civil rights movement, and, in the modern day, as I said, the dominionist movement and the Paulites are incredibly worrying-- both of which are sourced in the Right.

Also, equating Jews with Israel is just not a good thing to do. Saying that US support for Israel is a 'racial topic' does not make me comfortable, either.

Purely anecdotal, but it seems to me like people in general are not necessarily aware of antisemitism and fighting it, it's just not a thing for them. And that's good overall, it's best if there's just not an issue. But it's bad in the sense that it leaves the jackasses more able to do their shit without being noticed. Does that make sense?

642 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:43:08am

"J Street" are American Jews, not Israeli, but their position is strictly anti-Israel even though they use the cognitive dissonance technique of advertising themselves as "pro-Israel"

643 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:43:26am

re: #631 oaktree

I need to get my reading glasses checked...

I originally saw "phyllosemites" and wondered how that discussion was leaking into some sort of cooking reference.

Earlier I saw a ad at the page top for Arlen Spector and thought it said "Spectre". Which gave me an odd image or Arlen haunting Pennsylvania and draining energy levels from PA voters. (And I blame this on Varek Raith! :P {sarc})

Cato went progressive...but the jury's still out on whether that muddied or cleared the waters//

644 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:44:43am

re: #631 oaktree

I originally saw "phyllosemites" and wondered how that discussion was leaking into some sort of cooking reference.

I think that is what I will name my apple strudel recipe!

645 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:44:56am

re: #249 oaktree

I once saw a "Jesus is Lord" bumper sticker and I thought it said "Jesus is Loud." I also once saw "Support Fine Arts" as "Support Fire Ants." I'm probably slightly dyslexic.

646 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:45:03am

I have to go clean out my car. BBL

647 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:45:38am

re: #645 Mad Al-Jaffee

I once saw a "Jesus is Lord" bumper sticker and I thought it said "Jesus is Loud." I also once saw "Support Fine Arts" as "Support Fire Ants." I'm probably slightly dyslexic.

Dyslexics of the world - UNTIE!

648 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:45:49am

re: #645 Mad Al-Jaffee

I once saw a "Jesus is Lord" bumper sticker and I thought it said "Jesus is Loud." I also once saw "Support Fine Arts" as "Support Fire Ants." I'm probably slightly dyslexic.

See my #638 above.

649 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:45:50am

re: #637 Aceofwhat?

but antipathy for Israel is a racial topic, you said earlier. i'm just having a tough time understanding why that logic is stuck on a one-way street, that's all.

I'm saying that support for Israel isn't-- or shouldn't be-- tied to race, it shouldn't be 'we'll protect them because they're Jews', but instead "we'll help them because they're unfairly attacked."

It's a hairsplit, don't worry about it.

But on the topic of Republicans and antisemtism:

Here's a good bit from the SPLC on the GOP and the virulently antisemetic CCC:


Most Americans learned of the CCC in late 1998, when a scandal erupted over prominent Southern politicians' ties to the brazenly racist group. After it was revealed that former Congressman Bob Barr (R-Ga.) gave the keynote speech at the CCC's 1998 national convention and that then-Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott (R-Miss.) had spoken to the group five times, both claimed they knew nothing about the CCC. However, an Intelligence Report investigation, publicized by national television and newspaper reports, made clear what the CCC really was: a hate group that routinely denigrated blacks as "genetically inferior," complained about "Jewish power brokers," called homosexuals "perverted sodomites," accused immigrants of turning America into a "slimy brown mass of glop," and named Lester Maddox, the now-deceased, ax handle-wielding, arch-segregationist former governor of Georgia, "Patriot of the Century."

As evidence of widespread association between Southern GOP officeholders and the CCC mounted, Republican National Committee Chairman Jim Nicholson took the unusual step in 1998 of asking party members to resign from the group because of its racist views. A resolution moved through the U.S. Congress "condemning the racism and bigotry espoused by the Council of Conservative Citizens," although it ultimately failed. (Congress had earlier condemned the black supremacist Nation of Islam in a similar manner, but failed to do the same with the CCC. Republican Party leaders, likely embarrassed by Lott's very public connection to the CCC, managed to defeat the censure effort.)

But six years later, many Southern lawmakers were still pandering to and meeting with the CCC — and still pleading ignorance. According to a 2004 Intelligence Report review of the Citizens Informer, no fewer than 38 federal, state and local elected officials had attended CCC events between 2000 and 2004, most of them giving speeches to local chapters of the hate group.

650 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:46:06am

Dianna West (BNP supporter) gets the prize for the Best Fox News/ Geert scandal....

Best Investment Saudi Prince Talal Ever Made

It was pile-on time at Fox News tonight as Glenn Beck, Charles Krauthammer, a gal whose name I missed and Bill Kristol all branded Geert Wilders beyond the pale tonight.

Beck classified Geert as a fascist.

Krauthammer said Geert didn't know the difference between Islam and Islamism -- never mind that according to Krauthammer's idea of Islamic scholarship, neither did Mohammed.

The gal is the middle said she agreed with Imam Krauthammer and added that if people like this (Geert) are elected to lead Holland it will suffer the consequences.

Kristol called Geert a demagogue.

In other words, a stomach-turning display -- or should I say halal?

Fact is, this anti-Geert pundit solidarity will only delight Newscorp stakeholder Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal. That's because it is Wilders in the Netherlands who stands as the unexpectedly strong spearhead of resistance to the Islamization of Europe and the wider West. As a scion of the most powerful sharia dictatorship in the world, Prince Talal doesn't like that. How fortunate for him that Fox News doesn't like it, either.

651 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:46:20am

re: #645 Mad Al-Jaffee

I once saw a "Jesus is Lord" bumper sticker and I thought it said "Jesus is Loud." I also once saw "Support Fine Arts" as "Support Fire Ants." I'm probably slightly dyslexic.

Wouldn't the latter sticker get you in trouble in Texas?

652 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:46:29am

re: #632 RogueOne

Highlighting this portion just for Obdicut:


McDonald presents originalist judges the perfect chance to restore the original meaning of a long-abused constitutional provision: In 1873, a Supreme Court unwilling to accept Reconstruction-era changes to our constitutional order—with the federal government empowered to check state oppression—eviscerated the Privileges or Immunities Clause. By reinvigorating that clause, the Court can scale back a warped Due Process Clause that has been misused in a clumsy attempt to protect individual rights.
.......
Granted, Scalia has been far from a down-the-line originalist. On more than one occasion, where originalism does not achieve the result he wants, he ignores the history and stands by precedent. (Most recently, Scalia voted to uphold the federal power to trump state regulation of medicinal marijuana, even if the drug never crosses state lines.) To explain these variances, Scalia has called himself a “faint-hearted originalist” or an “originalist, but not a nut.”

But if the opinion Scalia joins in McDonald matches his signals at argument, the justice will no longer be able to call himself an originalist of any kind. He will have to turn in his O-card and leave Clarence Thomas as the only originalist on the Court. (Not coincidentally, Thomas is the only justice on record as favoring a revival of the Privileges or Immunities Clause.)

653 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:47:08am

re: #631 oaktree

I need to get my reading glasses checked...

I originally saw "phyllosemites" and wondered how that discussion was leaking into some sort of cooking reference.

Earlier I saw a ad at the page top for Arlen Spector and thought it said "Spectre". Which gave me an odd image or Arlen haunting Pennsylvania and draining energy levels from PA voters. (And I blame this on Varek Raith! :P {sarc})

...now if you want to talk phyllobacterium, that's a whole different can of worms/

654 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:47:29am

re: #642 Alouette

"J Street" are American Jews, not Israeli, but their position is strictly anti-Israel even though they use the cognitive dissonance technique of advertising themselves as "pro-Israel"

Are you kidding me? J-Street is "anti-Israel" because why? They disagree with your beliefs? Beliefs that are shared by a sizable portion of the Israeli population.

655 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:47:30am

re: #632 RogueOne

Interesting Op-ed found via Reason:

[Link: www.washingtonexaminer.com...]

Is Justice Scalia abandoning originalism?

I consider him the most activist judge the court has ever seen. Not always successfully, but always pushing new law.

William

656 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:47:46am

re: #641 cliffster

Yes, I'd say that's a fair summation. Not nearly enough people are aware that antisemitism is pervasive in a large number of areas of society. It's on the left, it's on the right. In reference to Israel, it's mainly on the left. In reference to life here in the US, it's mainly on the right.

Not that 'right/left' mean anything, I'm just using them in the US shorthand fashion.

657 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:49:00am

re: #653 Aceofwhat?

...now if you want to talk phyllobacterium, that's a whole different can of worms/

I couldn't give a hill of beans about them.
/

658 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:49:05am

re: #640 Aceofwhat?

what a fascinating question. forgive me for doubting in advance that you have the capacity to address it in a balanced fashion.

Explain to me how there is only ONE legitimate "pro-Israel" position for Americans to have?

659 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:49:23am

re: #649 Obdicut

yuck.

660 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:49:27am

re: #652 RogueOne

I'm sorry, are you citing a defense of states rights as being libertarian?

I've never argued that Thomas isn't an originalist, though I do think some of his decisions are an excellent example of why originalism is a very problematic method of interpretation.

661 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:51:09am

re: #650 Killgore Trout

Dianna West (BNP supporter) gets the prize for the Best Fox News/ Geert scandal...

Best Investment Saudi Prince Talal Ever Made

Oh, that's the "blood money" that bought Beck's opinion of Geert.

662 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:51:26am

re: #658 drcordell

Explain to me how there is only ONE legitimate "pro-Israel" position for Americans to have?

That's not true, of course.

But your position is "Israel does all the heavy lifting and gets squat or 'glorified fireworks' in return."

663 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:52:23am

re: #656 Obdicut

Yes, I'd say that's a fair summation. Not nearly enough people are aware that antisemitism is pervasive in a large number of areas of society. It's on the left, it's on the right. In reference to Israel, it's mainly on the left. In reference to life here in the US, it's mainly on the right.

Not that 'right/left' mean anything, I'm just using them in the US shorthand fashion.

Heh, not to worry - I limit my bitchiness about the left/right thing to, oh, once a week ;)

It's easy to believe that people don't know about it, as in it's not even on their radar. Because I was one of those people up until a few years ago.

664 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:52:29am

Ah, the good Doctor is here. Please excuse me while I warm up the troll barbecue. I don't have a flavor of the day today, so please feel free to add whatever seasonings you like from my spice cabinet.

665 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:53:44am

re: #664 thedopefishlives

Ah, the good Doctor is here. Please excuse me while I warm up the troll barbecue. I don't have a flavor of the day today, so please feel free to add whatever seasonings you like from my spice cabinet.

Garam Masala. I've got a hankering for a nice Indian spice today.

666 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:54:28am

re: #664 thedopefishlives

Cordell isn't a troll, just a rather bullheaded dude who wants to have the same argument repeatedly.

To pre-empt the argument:

Cordell, you need to ask yourself why you don't think the Arab states are capable of meaningful political change, and why you think any sort of peace is achievable while the Arab states still intentionally inflame the situation between Palestine and Israel.

Because to me, assuming that the Arabs are simply a hopeless cause smacks of culturalism or racism.

667 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:54:31am

re: #661 wrenchwench

Oh, that's the "blood money" that bought Beck's opinion of Geert.

That seems to be the talking point they are deciding on. Spencer is on board with it too. It's not beyond the realm of possibility, Part Saudi ownership of an American news outlet was bound to have an effect. Just like when Murdoch bought enough influence in the Wall Street Journal he turned the Op-Ed section into a conspiracy theory factory.

668 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:55:00am

re: #662 Cato the Elder

That's not true, of course.

But your position is "Israel does all the heavy lifting and gets squat or 'glorified fireworks' in return."

No, that's not my position. And that's a different argument for a different day. The point that I was replying to was this:

"J Street" are American Jews, not Israeli, but their position is strictly anti-Israel even though they use the cognitive dissonance technique of advertising themselves as "pro-Israel"

The absurd, absurd, absurd statement above. That unless you are an American who shares every one of AIPAC's views, you are "anti-Israel."

669 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:55:01am

re: #658 drcordell

Explain to me how there is only ONE legitimate "pro-Israel" position for Americans to have?

Allow me to retort.

"There is no geographical promontory out there, populated by Catholics who are exposed to terminal persecution. . . . I am ready to concede that in our world, in our time, Jews have inherited distinctive immunities."

"Anyone who gives voice, especially if this is done repeatedly, to opinions distinctively, even uniquely, offensive to the security of settled Jewish sentiment involving religious or ethnic or tribal pride engages in anti-Semitic activity."

William F. Buckley

670 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:55:24am

re: #666 Obdicut

Cordell isn't a troll, just a rather bullheaded dude who wants to have the same argument repeatedly.

Oh, I know. I've had a few, er, discussions with him on occasion. I guess today I'm in more of a GAZE mood than usual.

671 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:56:06am

re: #664 thedopefishlives

Ah, the good Doctor is here. Please excuse me while I warm up the troll barbecue. I don't have a flavor of the day today, so please feel free to add whatever seasonings you like from my spice cabinet.

i'm in a mesquite mood. not sure why...

672 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:57:08am

re: #666 Obdicut

I have read this question from you on innumerable occasions, and have never seen it addressed. Just chiming in for the record. It's a very good question.

673 cliffster  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:57:18am

re: #666 Obdicut

Cordell isn't a troll, he just likes to come in and hijack threads and argue incessantly about things and be insulting and.. oh wait

Congratulations on your Sign of the Beast, btw

674 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:57:30am

re: #663 cliffster

It's easy to believe that people don't know about it, as in it's not even on their radar. Because I was one of those people up until a few years ago.

And and many people who are aware of it whether left or right just don't really understand it or the mass of history behind it, that informs any conversation. It's one of the things that makes conversations about Israel in general really difficult sometimes.

(just a general comment, not directed at you specifically)

675 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:58:03am

re: #666 Obdicut

Cordell isn't a troll, just a rather bullheaded dude who wants to have the same argument repeatedly.

Although that fits perfectly some leading candidates for the description of "troll", having been accused of such a thing myself on occasion.

676 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:58:35am

re: #666 Obdicut

oh, and hello Antichrist//

677 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 8:59:51am

re: #666 Obdicut

Cordell isn't a troll, just a rather bullheaded dude who wants to have the same argument repeatedly.

To pre-empt the argument:

Cordell, you need to ask yourself why you don't think the Arab states are capable of meaningful political change, and why you think any sort of peace is achievable while the Arab states still intentionally inflame the situation between Palestine and Israel.

Because to me, assuming that the Arabs are simply a hopeless cause smacks of culturalism or racism.

That's not the issue here. The issue here is that certain posters believe they are the sole arbiters of what is, and isn't, "pro-Israel." American Jew who supports J-Street, anti-Israel. American non-Jew who doesn't support AIPAC's foreign policy aims, anti-Israel.

Within Israel itself there is massive disagreement on fundamental issues such as settlements, the concept of land for peace, the barrier wall, withdrawal from the West Bank, the Gaza War. But if you're in the United States and you share the same views that many in Israel hold, you're labeled "anti-Israel" or if you're not Jewish very possibly "anti-Semitic."

678 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:00:23am

re: #674 Jadespring

And and many people who are aware of it whether left or right just don't really understand it or the mass of history behind it, that informs any conversation. It's one of the things that makes conversations about Israel in general really difficult and necessary sometimes.

I made an addition.

679 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:00:39am

re: #675 Aceofwhat?

I'm just saying I believe in his sincerity. To me a troll is someone who's taking it over the top for attention.

680 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:01:05am

re: #660 Obdicut

I'm sorry, are you citing a defense of states rights as being libertarian?

I've never argued that Thomas isn't an originalist, though I do think some of his decisions are an excellent example of why originalism is a very problematic method of interpretation.

No, I just pointed it out to get you going. ;)

681 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:02:08am

re: #679 Obdicut

I'm just saying I believe in his sincerity. To me a troll is someone who's taking it over the top for attention.

me too. that was my prior defense, as well.

682 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:03:46am

re: #677 drcordell

I don't think that's a completely fair summation, nor is it in any way a good history of why people have difficulties with you. For example, you have never, ever answered the question I posed above in any real way.

683 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:04:34am

re: #677 drcordell

The issue here is that certain posters believe they are the sole arbiters of what is, and isn't, "pro-Israel."

I saw no such claim. Those who disagree with you are stating an opinion, just as you are.

But if you're in the United States and you share the same views that many in Israel hold, you're labeled "anti-Israel" or if you're not Jewish very possibly "anti-Semitic."

Labels will be thrown around and applied. I'd like to see discussions continue anyway, to see whether anyone's position changes. For education, not recreation, although there may be some of both.

684 boofar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:05:26am

re: #2 wiffersnapper

Nationalism, also known as "Lalalalala I can't hear yooou!"-syndrome

I wouldn't damn it outright. For many peoples it was the thing that drove them to independence against oppressors. Yeh, you can have extreme ultra-nationalism (where you ignore the crimes of your own countrymen), but that hardly reflects all of the nationalist movements.

685 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:05:29am

Uh oh work to do...

686 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:05:54am

re: #666 Obdicut

Cordell isn't a troll, just a rather bullheaded dude who wants to have the same argument repeatedly.

To pre-empt the argument:

Cordell, you need to ask yourself why you don't think the Arab states are capable of meaningful political change, and why you think any sort of peace is achievable while the Arab states still intentionally inflame the situation between Palestine and Israel.

Because to me, assuming that the Arabs are simply a hopeless cause smacks of culturalism or racism.

I never said that the Arab states aren't capable of meaningful political change. I said that I don't expect them to change, because they have no motivation to. I am not denigrating Arab states by considering them rational actors who make decisions based on their perceived self-interest.

If you are an Arab state, what possible reason do you have to deal with Israel? Democracy is limited, if non-existent, in nearly every state surrounding Israel. Thus, the only threat to many of the leaders in power is angering their citizens so much the government is overthrown. To the average man on the street, Israel is a perfect scapegoat to keep your citizens angry at anything but their own government. Why on earth would they willingly resolve the Palestinian crisis? It's a perfect political football for them to play with over and over and over again.

I have every reason to believe that the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is in the best interest of Jews and Arabs alike. But that does not mean it is in the political interests of the handful of Arab leaders who are the ones making calculated political decisions. Does that make sense?

687 reine.de.tout  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:06:22am

re: #683 wrenchwench

I saw no such claim. Those who disagree with you are stating an opinion, just as you are.

Labels will be thrown around and applied. I'd like to see discussions continue anyway, to see whether anyone's position changes. For education, not recreation, although there may be some of both.

I was about to write the same thing, glad you got to it.

688 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:06:29am

re: #682 Obdicut

I don't think that's a completely fair summation, nor is it in any way a good history of why people have difficulties with you. For example, you have never, ever answered the question I posed above in any real way.

See #686

689 boofar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:06:38am

Hey guys, anyone know the video that Charles posted about AGW where the author was talking about the positive changes that will happen in order to cope with climate change? It was posted some time ago, but I honestly don't remember when (and don't know what to search by in google :( .)

690 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:08:25am

I'm a little confused. Are we talking about Arab or Muslim states?

691 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:09:03am

re: #686 drcordell

I'm sorry, but do you realize you really are saying that you don't believe the Arab states are capable of meaningful political change?

You're acting like the Arab states will remain totalitarian, oligarchical, monarchical, and corrupt forever. Why don't you think that the citizens of Arab nations will be able to reform their countries?

And you did not answer the other part of the question: why, if the Arab states will continually inflame the conflict no matter what Israel does, do you think that Israel holds the keys to resolving the conflict? Do you honestly think if Israel gives into concessions, that more concessions will not be demanded?

692 Kragar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:09:16am

re: #679 Obdicut

I'm just saying I believe in his sincerity. To me a troll is someone who's taking it over the top for attention.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?!?!?
/

693 Hengineer  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:09:18am

re: #690 RogueOne

I'm a little confused. Are we talking about Arab or Muslim states?

I think Muslim States, because that would include states such as Iran, which though Muslim, isn't Arab.

694 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:09:27am

re: #686 drcordell

Too much, unfortunately.

695 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:09:36am

re: #690 RogueOne

I'm a little confused. Are we talking about Arab or Muslim states?

ZOD states.
...right?

696 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:09:38am

re: #690 RogueOne

Meh, you're right. I should note that Iran would be hella pissed at me for calling them Arab.

The surrounding Arab and Muslim states.

697 reine.de.tout  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:09:50am

re: #689 boofar

Hey guys, anyone know the video that Charles posted about AGW where the author was talking about the positive changes that will happen in order to cope with climate change? It was posted some time ago, but I honestly don't remember when (and don't know what to search by in google :( .)

Check the tag cloud, or better, the "TAG STORM' under tools
Here's the result from clicking on "AGW' in the tag storm.

698 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:09:52am

good to see a private-equity firm doing something way cool.

699 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:10:31am

re: #690 RogueOne

I'm a little confused. Are we talking about Arab or Muslim states?

I'm specifically referring to the Arab states that directly surround Israel and would be party to negotiations to resolve the Palestinian conflict. Egypt, Jordan, Syria specifically. But mostly Egypt in the context of my earlier comment.

700 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:10:37am

re: #693 Hengineer

I think Muslim States, because that would include states such as Iran, which though Muslim, isn't entirely Arab.

FTFY

701 Kragar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:11:42am

Hey Obdicut, you ever get around to that horror book again?

702 Hengineer  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:12:23am

re: #700 Aceofwhat?

FTFY

You know what I mean. What "race" constitutes America? Iran is dominated by Persians, to be sure, but I'm certain there are Arabs living in the country.

703 Hengineer  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:13:14am

re: #700 Aceofwhat?

FTFY

Upding anyway for the added clarification

704 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:13:25am

re: #701 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Heh. I was just reading a bunch of his Cracked articles and meant to return to the book. I'll finish it off today, pinky-swear.

705 boofar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:13:40am

re: #697 reine.de.tout

Thank you :) .

706 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:13:57am

re: #677 drcordell

J Street demonstrates that it is against Israel's national security and demands that it made concession after concession for the sake of a peace process with a group of people that have no interest in peace or a 2-state solution.

Within Israel itself there is massive disagreement on fundamental issues such as settlements, the concept of land for peace, the barrier wall, withdrawal from the West Bank, the Gaza War. But if you're in the United States and you share the same views that many in Israel hold, you're labeled "anti-Israel" or if you're not Jewish very possibly "anti-Semitic."

Israel has tried for peace in every fashion imaginable- land for peace with Egypt, and that worked. They tried without land for peace with Jordan; that worked too.

They tried negotiated peace with the Palestinians - intifada's 1, 2, and 3.

Israel provided civil administrative control to the Palestinians for all of Gaza and most of the West Bank under Oslo and the follow on agreements - the result being Palestinian terror attacks and bombings. Israel had no choice but to provide for Israel's security and engaged in checkpoints and improved security measures.

They tried unilateral withdrawal from Gaza - suicide bombings followed by a rocket war when Israel built the security fence.

Every effort Israel has made to engage in a peace process with the Palestinians has been rebuffed - by the Palestinians who have no interest in a state of their own. They'd much rather have Israel.

Ignoring that plain truth shows that you have no interest in understanding the dynamics of the region and that you're all too willing to listen to diplomats who are busy trying to invent and substitute their own reality for the facts as they are on the ground.

The history and the public opinion in Israel has always been to try and make peace, but each time Israel has done just that - to attempt peace with the Palestinians, it's blown up in Israel's face - literally and figuratively. The Palestinians have no one to blame but themselves for that situation. Only demanding that Palestinians fulfill their obligations and negotiate in good faith will start to change the situation, and even there the Palestinian leadership have no interest in doing so because they like the current situation just as it is - they don't have to govern and lead and can simply blame Israel for all their woes.

707 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:15:18am

re: #702 Hengineer

You know what I mean. What "race" constitutes America? Iran is dominated by Persians, to be sure, but I'm certain there are Arabs living in the country.

i thought it was more of a 60-40 split. And to hear my Persian friend talk, you'd think they were poised to be completely overrun. That little undercurrent is fascinating.

708 Kragar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:15:20am

re: #704 Obdicut

Heh. I was just reading a bunch of his Cracked articles and meant to return to the book. I'll finish it off today, pinky-swear.

Yeah, the guy is a pretty interesting writer. Good at breaking down complex ideas into layman terms. Let me know when you finish the book, I had a couple theories for what I think happened and just wanted to bounce them off someone else who read it.

709 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:16:13am

re: #699 drcordell

I'd like to note, Cordell, that there's a very big difference between arguing Israel ought to do something because they need to be the ones to solve this, and arguing Israel ought to do something because it is ethically the right thing to do.

710 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:16:49am

re: #684 boofar

I wouldn't damn it outright. For many peoples it was the thing that drove them to independence against oppressors. Yeh, you can have extreme ultra-nationalism (where you ignore the crimes of your own countrymen), but that hardly reflects all of the nationalist movements.

Nationalism as a word or a concept generally needs some qualifiers, like you've done here. As with many 'isms' it's got it's positive and negative qualities and positive and negative effects. In Canada during the Olympics, especially in Vancouver there was an outpouring of fun and really good natured nationalism that just wasn't something that is very common. It really was great and the coming together and just celebrating country and people in a positive way was really refreshing. That in my view is a positive side of nationalism.

711 boofar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:17:07am

re: #691 Obdicut

That's not what I got out of #686. The "leadership" in much of the Arab world has little of interest in giving a damn about their people and their freedoms. As in Eastern Europe, it's easier to blame an external foe (usually Jews) for their problems than making internal reforms. In Eastern Europe, this is becoming more and more difficult in light of the internet (people stop giving a damn about minorities and start asking why corruption continues to be such a massive problem.)

712 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:18:00am

re: #711 boofar

I'm sorry, I don't understand in what way you're disagreeing with me.

713 Bear  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:18:05am

OT but FYI it has been snowing for a while here 60 miles West of Las Vegas Nevada and 60 miles East of Death Valley. So far about 3/4 inch accumulated on top of the car. Yah I know that is not very much compared to many places but in the Mojave Desert at 2500 feet elevation?

714 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:18:22am

re: #704 Obdicut

Heh. I was just reading a bunch of his Cracked articles and meant to return to the book. I'll finish it off today, pinky-swear.

Someone posted a link to that site last night and I have a bone to pick with them. I am now addicted to Crack.

715 boofar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:18:39am

re: #712 Obdicut

I'm saying that you've misunderstood comment #686 :) .

716 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:20:09am

re: #677 drcordell

Israel, like the USA (and unlike any other state in the ME), is a democracy with a free press, freedom of expression, and an abundance of folks who think they know everything.
You can be sure that any characterizations here of your ME positions are MILD compared to what you would be called in Israel. Furthermore, the fact that one can find all manner of fringe views being expressed in Israel in no way validates your views, nor does it give you a pass from being called anti-Israel or anti-Semitic if that is what someone happends to believe you are.

717 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:20:19am

re: #710 Jadespring

Nationalism as a word or a concept generally needs some qualifiers, like you've done here. As with many 'isms' it's got it's positive and negative qualities and positive and negative effects. In Canada during the Olympics, especially in Vancouver there was an outpouring of fun and really good natured nationalism that just wasn't something that is very common. It really was great and the coming together and just celebrating country and people in a positive way was really refreshing. That in my view is a positive side of nationalism.

it was good, i admit, to finally see another country admit they have guys willing to attend a sports event shirtless and painted, in freezing weather. i feel a little more kinship:)

718 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:20:53am

re: #715 boofar

Yes. I'm asking you to explain how you think I've misunderstood it.

719 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:21:19am

re: #711 boofar

That's not what I got out of #686. The "leadership" in much of the Arab world has little of interest in giving a damn about their people and their freedoms. As in Eastern Europe, it's easier to blame an external foe (usually Jews) for their problems than making internal reforms. In Eastern Europe, this is becoming more and more difficult in light of the internet (people stop giving a damn about minorities and start asking why corruption continues to be such a massive problem.)

yeah but DrCordell blames the Jews too. that's where this gets a little thorny...

720 Kragar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:22:01am

re: #714 Jadespring

Someone posted a link to that site last night and I have a bone to pick with them. I am now addicted to Crack.

Cracked is awesome. Lots of good fun info there.

721 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:22:07am

re: #713 Bear

OT but FYI it has been snowing for a while here 60 miles West of Las Vegas Nevada and 60 miles East of Death Valley. So far about 3/4 inch accumulated on top of the car. Yah I know that is not very much compared to many places but in the Mojave Desert at 2500 feet elevation?

GLOBAL COOLING!!

722 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:22:56am

Simple solution. Blame Bush™. Everyone's happy. Drink!
Problem solved.
/

723 boofar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:23:26am

re: #718 Obdicut

The author #686 said that given the current situation, the leaders in ME will thwart political, structural and economic reforms. This is a correct assessment of the situation and, yes, at their political current state, ME nations are indeed incapable of changes that we see in more modern countries.

724 avanti  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:23:50am

"ERIC MASSA DUPES THE CONSERVATIVES

Eric Massa is a snake.

But he is a brilliant snake.

And in one of the most audacious p.r. moves ever, he has conned Limbaugh, Drudge and Beck – and untold millions of Americans. From a little radio studio beside a swamp, with the help of a couple of deluded backwoods yokels, he has made himself a national star. "


Read More:

Massa.

725 boofar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:25:33am

re: #719 Aceofwhat?

*shrug*

I don't know the guy very well. I just happen to agree with him on that one point.

The voting of Jews for Democrats can be explained by social, cultural and geographical reasons.

726 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:27:33am

re: #725 boofar

*shrug*

I don't know the guy very well. I just happen to agree with him on that one point.

The voting of Jews for Democrats can be explained by social, cultural and geographical reasons.

i agree that it can be explained, as well, and that 'antisemitic Republicans' are an insignificant factor in their voting patterns.

i just don't have evidence for believing that the doctor is in a position to diagnose such subtle things...

727 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:29:12am

re: #723 boofar

How do you manage to say that something in a present state is incapable of change?

Change would imply leaving that state, you see.

728 Slap  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:32:00am

re: #645 Mad Al-Jaffee

Part of how I keep sane and amused is to deliberately do that. For example, I now cannot see ANY TV listing with the word "ghost" in the title without automatically converting it to "goat". Thus, little giggles like "Goat Whisperer" just make me smile.

It's a small grin during the day.

729 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:33:26am

re: #552 Decatur Deb

Neturei Karta, at the risk of being snide.

Noam Chomsky and Uri Avnery beg to disagree.

730 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:34:02am

re: #725 boofar

*shrug*

I don't know the guy very well. I just happen to agree with him on that one point.

The voting of Jews for Democrats can be explained by social, cultural and geographical reasons.

I don't know who it was that said: "Jews earn like Episcopalians, but vote like Puerto Ricans"

731 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:36:58am

re: #728 Slap

Part of how I keep sane and amused is to deliberately do that. For example, I now cannot see ANY TV listing with the word "ghost" in the title without automatically converting it to "goat". Thus, little giggles like "Goat Whisperer" just make me smile.

It's a small grin during the day.


I was walking to work one snowy morning and came upon a STOP sign that was plastered with snow. I picked up a stick and scratched "GO" into the snow. That was January and I'm still smiling about it.

732 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:37:18am

re: #724 avanti

"ERIC MASSA DUPES THE CONSERVATIVES

Eric Massa is a snake.

But he is a brilliant snake.

And in one of the most audacious p.r. moves ever, he has conned Limbaugh, Drudge and Beck – and untold millions of Americans. From a little radio studio beside a swamp, with the help of a couple of deluded backwoods yokels, he has made himself a national star. "

Read More:

Massa.

I don't know anything about that site or the blogger but the article seems to lay out pretty clearly the chain of events in one place. At least with the bits and pieces that I've already read about or have been discussed here. The author does bring up a point I hadn't thought of, why push Massa out and not the other opposing Dems.

I also didn't realize that originally he talked the talk about single payer and nationalizing. That fact alone tickles my funny bone considering how much Beck and Rush are fawning right now.

733 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:39:56am

re: #724 avanti

"ERIC MASSA DUPES THE CONSERVATIVES

Eric Massa is a snake.

But he is a brilliant snake.

And in one of the most audacious p.r. moves ever, he has conned Limbaugh, Drudge and Beck – and untold millions of Americans. From a little radio studio beside a swamp, with the help of a couple of deluded backwoods yokels, he has made himself a national star. "

Read More:

Massa.

Good link! Here's something from that:

A guy who – until yesterday – belonged to the House Progressive Caucus has, with one nicely disseminated rant, transformed himself into a conservative darling. Limbaugh and Beck have trumpeted him, and Beck has promised him an entire hour of national television tonight. Massa opposed Obamacare because it wasn’t liberal enough – because it didn’t entirely nationalize health care with a single-payer system – and Beck is about to crown him queen of the tea party.

Massa is trying to deflect some nasty stuff, I betcha.

734 avanti  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:41:34am

re: #732 Jadespring

I don't know anything about that site or the blogger but the article seems to lay out pretty clearly the chain of events in one place. At least with the bits and pieces that I've already read about or have been discussed here. The author does bring up a point I hadn't thought of, why push Massa out and not the other opposing Dems.

I also didn't realize that originally he talked the talk about single payer and nationalizing. That fact alone tickles my funny bone considering how much Beck and Rush are fawning right now.

I don't know if the site I linked is left or right, it just appeared rational. I also did not know Massa opposed the bill because he was to the left of it.

735 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:45:35am

re: #734 avanti

I don't know if the site I linked is left or right, it just appeared rational. I also did not know Massa opposed the bill because he was to the left of it.

He's just another one of those GOP obstructionist.

736 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:46:14am

Looks like Fox News is in hot water with conservatives these days. Not only the criticism of Geert but even the craziest right wing bloggers can see that loony Beck giving a platform to crazy frothing Massa is a big bag of fail.

737 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:47:02am

re: #734 avanti

I don't know if the site I linked is left or right, it just appeared rational. I also did not know Massa opposed the bill because he was to the left of it.

oh, that's the best part of this whole thing by far. as someone who wants HCR but not in the currently proposed fashion, Massa would speak for me about as well as Kucinich...

738 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:48:07am

re: #733 Stanley Sea

Massa is trying to deflect some nasty stuff, I betcha.

That's what it looks like to me. Things start getting a bit hot. Start with the cancer stuff, totally reasonable. A few days go by. Okay better admit to something cause I don't think it's going to completely stay quiet. Few more days. Okay it's becoming more clear that whatever is going to come out whether I like it or not. (sirens wail) Time for pre-emptive strike and misdirection strategy. play# 134.86. Balls to the wall it's muddy the waters time. play# 675.2. Victim, victim!!! play # 422.3

I actually don't really doubt the naked Rahm story. I can see it. Rahm is that type of guy, it's not really a secret. I expect it's pretty common for people on the hill to get rahmed. At that level of politics rahming is pretty common. Rahm is just more blatant and open about it.

739 reine.de.tout  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:48:25am

re: #724 avanti

"ERIC MASSA DUPES THE CONSERVATIVES

Eric Massa is a snake.

But he is a brilliant snake.

And in one of the most audacious p.r. moves ever, he has conned Limbaugh, Drudge and Beck – and untold millions of Americans. From a little radio studio beside a swamp, with the help of a couple of deluded backwoods yokels, he has made himself a national star. "

Read More:

Massa.

He kept making up explanations until one of them got for him the attention he wanted.

Yes, he's a snake.

740 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:48:34am
741 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:48:55am
742 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:49:15am

Well, my muse has let me go for the moment but I see the troll is back and I don't like the smell of troll so I'm gonna log off. What's my definition of troll you ask?
Troll = Someone who goes out of their way to create an argument where there was none and revels in the anger and argument he or she creates.

I'm just sayin...

Have a care all, and try to Keep Laughing will you? :-)

743 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:49:32am

re: #738 Jadespring

I actually don't really doubt the naked Rahm story. I can see it. Rahm is that type of guy, it's not really a secret. I expect it's pretty common for people on the hill to get rahmed. At that level of politics rahming is pretty common. Rahm is just more blatant and open about it.

updinged for high-quality new terminology...

744 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:50:07am

re: #740 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What's happening...

I like your new avatar. I didn't realize how much you look like John Goodman.

745 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:50:48am

re: #742 Dragon_Lady

Who? Me?

Just posted some Office Space...

746 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:51:19am

re: #744 Walter L. Newton

I like your new avatar. I didn't realize how much you look like John Goodman.

Okay. That's funny as hell.

747 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:52:01am

re: #741 Killgore Trout

Glenn Beck & Michelle Malkin disagree over Eric Massa (video)

It gets pretty nasty.

can't see the video at work. does one of them come out of it looking slightly less inane, or is that just a stupid question?

748 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:53:09am

Remembering his wife... heh

749 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:53:32am

re: #745 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Who? Me?

Just posted some Office Space...

No not you! You silly man! You couldn't be a troll if you tried! You're a hero, remember?
He knows who I'm talking about... And I think he likes it because he never stops being an irritant.

750 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:53:57am

re: #747 Aceofwhat?

can't see the video at work. does one of them come out of it looking slightly less inane, or is that just a stupid question?

They both come of looking pretty crazy but I'm struck by how nasty the debate gets. They both think the other is an idiot and they're both right.

751 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:56:24am

re: #750 Killgore Trout

They both come of looking pretty crazy but I'm struck by how nasty the debate gets. They both think the other is an idiot and they're both right.

like watching a wasp and a centipede go at it. they're both venomous, so we win no matter who wins...

752 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:56:52am

re: #746 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Okay. That's funny as hell.

I was trying to be funny. You mean that's NOT a pic of John Goodman? It's really you? I don't know Goodman's wife. Did know his wife's first husband. He live(s)(d) in Georgetown Colorado, Bill Pentland was his name, met him while I was up there working in a movie back in the 90's.

753 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:57:15am

re: #750 Killgore Trout

They both come of looking pretty crazy but I'm struck by how nasty the debate gets. They both think the other is an idiot and they're both right.

This is what happens when your entire ideology is based on crazy hatred. These people aren't making decisions based on anything rational -- they're seizing on whatever comes up to make the "other side" look bad, and in the process beclowning themselves.

754 reine.de.tout  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:58:22am

re: #753 Charles

This is what happens when your entire ideology is based on crazy hatred. These people aren't making decisions based on anything rational -- they're seizing on whatever comes up to make the "other side" look bad, and in the process beclowning themselves.

And that is so very obvious in that exchange between Beck and Malkin.
For anyone who had any lingering doubts.

755 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:58:40am

re: #716 Spare O'Lake

Furthermore, the fact that one can find all manner of fringe views being expressed in Israel in no way validates your views

I'm not talking about FRINGE views. I'm talking about views that are held by sizable percentages of Israelis. Take settlement freezes for example. I support them, and have been pilloried as some sort of terror apologist. Yet here is the poll from Israel:

49% of Israelis support and 42% oppose Netanyahu’s decision to enforce a 10 month freeze on construction in the West Bank settlements

[Link: truman.huji.ac.il...]

These aren't FRINGE views. It's a hugely debated issue within Israel itself. As is the concept of land for peace, exchanging captured terrorists for Israeli soliders, and the decision to resume peace negotiations.

756 Locker  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:58:59am

re: #752 Walter L. Newton

I was trying to be funny. You mean that's NOT a pic of John Goodman? It's really you? I don't know Goodman's wife. Did know his wife's first husband. He live(s)(d) in Georgetown Colorado, Bill Pentland was his name, met him while I was up there working in a movie back in the 90's.

Maybe he is John Goodman. It could happen.

757 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:59:27am

re: #751 Aceofwhat?

like watching a wasp and a centipede go at it. they're both venomous, so we win no matter who wins...

i have dissected humans and animals alike. i love snakes, love holding them. i think a preying mantis is one of the coolest insects on earth.

but these things just give me the heebie-jeebies

758 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:00:02am

re: #719 Aceofwhat?

yeah but DrCordell blames the Jews too. that's where this gets a little thorny...

NO. NO. NO. Wrong wrong wrong wrong.

759 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:00:28am

re: #757 Aceofwhat?

i have dissected humans and animals alike. i love snakes, love holding them. i think a preying mantis is one of the coolest insects on earth.

but these things just give me the heebie-jeebies

eeeee!

760 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:00:47am

re: #756 Locker

(we must have the same barber)

761 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:02:23am

re: #755 drcordell

really? your support for settlement freezes has led to your figurative placement on the rack? that's an olympic-quality leap...

762 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:02:32am

re: #757 Aceofwhat?

I was expecting a picture like this...

763 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:03:41am

re: #756 Locker

Maybe he is John Goodman. It could happen.

I just did a search on Barr's first husband Bill Pentland to see if there was any update info. Well, he's back with Roseanne. I was given a lead that Bill Pentland, who then owned a cafe in Georgetown Colordao, had some phone numbers that could get me to the casting director of a move called "Phantoms" (based on the Dean Kuntz book) that would be filming in Georgetown and Denver. So I drove up to Georgetown and introduced myself, got the number, and bagged a featured extra part as a "reporter at a newspaper." The only part of the scene I was in that was kept was the beginning and very end. So, on the cutting room floor.

Still got paid of course.

764 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:04:58am

re: #763 Walter L. Newton

I just did a search on Barr's first husband Bill Pentland to see if there was any update info. Well, he's back with Roseanne. I was given a lead that Bill Pentland, who then owned a cafe in Georgetown Colordao, had some phone numbers that could get me to the casting director of a move called "Phantoms" (based on the Dean Kuntz book) that would be filming in Georgetown and Denver. So I drove up to Georgetown and introduced myself, got the number, and bagged a featured extra part as a "reporter at a newspaper." The only part of the scene I was in that was kept was the beginning and very end. So, on the cutting room floor.

Still got paid of course.

KOONTZ

765 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:05:04am

re: #756 Locker

Maybe he is John Goodman. It could happen.

You might be Judy Tenuta.

766 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:05:53am

re: #758 drcordell

NO. NO. NO. Wrong wrong wrong wrong.

huh. so how is all of this tragedy their responsibility, but not their fault?

767 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:05:56am

re: #706 lawhawk

And that is your opinion. J-street is of a different opinion. An opinion that happens to have a decent amount of support amongst Israelis themselves. That doesn't mean you get to decide who is and isn't for Israel's safety.

You're going to tell me that the Retired Head of the Israeli Navy and Shin Bet, Ami Ayalon, supports a group that wishes to see Israel destroyed? Right.

768 Locker  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:06:08am

re: #765 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You might be Judy Tenuta.

Don't make me bang you with my accordion.

769 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:06:38am

re: #765 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You might be Judy Tenuta.

I'm Judy Tenuta and I have the accordion to prove it.

770 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:06:45am

re: #33 iceweasel

Excellent.

Social justice is communism! as gus802 said earlier.

Well, buzzsawmonkey used to build up quite a head of steam if anyone mentioned human rights.

771 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:06:46am

re: #762 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I was expecting a picture like this...

heh. i'm only freaked out by what it will leave all over my house...

772 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:07:33am

re: #769 Walter L. Newton

I'm Judy Tenuta and I have the accordion to prove it.

Aren't we all Judy Tenuta?

773 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:07:51am

re: #753 Charles

This is what happens when your entire ideology is based on crazy hatred. These people aren't making decisions based on anything rational -- they're seizing on whatever comes up to make the "other side" look bad, and in the process beclowning themselves.

They've also become so reliant on hatred and anger that it gets pretty ugly when they start to turn on each other. They just don't have any control.

774 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:08:33am

re: #772 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Aren't we all Judy Tenuta?

No. I'm Spartacus. Don't know about the rest of you yokels.

775 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:08:55am

re: #767 drcordell

And that is your opinion.

eh, actually that read more like a succinct recitation of some facts. just so you know.

776 Kragar  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:09:14am

re: #774 thedopefishlives

No. I'm Spartacus. Don't know about the rest of you yokels.

I'm Dr. Rosenrosen.

777 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:09:53am

re: #770 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, buzzsawmonkey used to build up quite a head of steam if anyone mentioned human rights.

in which direction? i managed to be on LGF sabbatical during those most of those little chats...

778 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:10:29am

re: #776 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm Dr. Rosenrosen.

I'm john coctostan

779 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:10:55am

re: #634 MrSilverDragon

On a side note, a good friend of mine is legally able to marry his life partner today in DC and he's rushing to do so. He's hurrying the wedding because he's worried about "the other shoe dropping". Wish I could've been there but I have to work.

I don't think I'll ever understand why gay marriage is so taboo.

I recommend it. The uncle of a student of mine married his young man RIGHT before the hammer came down in California. The religious ceremony and the party were three-four months away, but they figured they could have those later than the civil.

780 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:11:03am

re: #766 Aceofwhat?

huh. so how is all of this tragedy their responsibility, but not their fault?

Duhhhhhhhhhh. *facepalm*

You can't understand the difference between being the cause of the problem, and being the solution to the problem? As I outlined before, yes it's the Arab states that created this crisis. Yes, it's the Arab states that are culpable for continuing the crisis. But NO, the Arab states DO NOT have motivation to resolve the conflict. It is extremely valuable as a political football for the repressive regimes of Egypt et al.

Therefore, if there is to be a solution, it must be Israel that takes the drivers seat, along with the United States. And because it is Israel's existence that is the most threatened by the long-term continuance of this conflict, I believe it is in her best interest to act. Does that make sense?

781 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:11:24am

re: #778 Aceofwhat?

I'm john coctostan

I'm Kaiser Soze!

782 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:12:05am

Hot Air readers are leaning heavily towards Beck in the Malkin/beck debate. Including this comment.....


Didn’t that $hitball over at LGF start start his descent to crazyville by slamming those on the right?

csdeven on March 9, 2010 at 12:31 PM

They're incredibly eager to eat their own.

783 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:12:32am

re: #775 Aceofwhat?

eh, actually that read more like a succinct recitation of some facts. just so you know.

Yes, he recited facts. But then he recited what Israel should do in the future, based on those facts. Which is his opinion. There are others who completely disagree with his analysis. And that does not mean that both people cannot be fully supportive of Israel, despite their difference of opinion regardign how to approach this problem.

784 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:13:35am

Thank you for the lurking downding Obdicut.

785 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:13:43am

re: #780 drcordell

I downdinged you just now for the 'Duhhh' thing, and for still avoiding the topic of the Arab states changing themselves and why you don't think that's possible, and for refusing to identify how, if the Arab states are inflaming the conflict, Israel could ever unilaterally solve the problem.

786 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:14:25am

re: #782 Killgore Trout

Hot Air readers are leaning heavily towards Beck in the Malkin/beck debate. Including this comment...

Didn’t that $hitball over at LGF start start his descent to crazyville by slamming those on the right?

csdeven on March 9, 2010 at 12:31 PM


They're incredibly eager to eat their own.

Oh, look.

csdeven

This user is blocked.

Shocked, I am.

787 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:14:37am

re: #778 Aceofwhat?

I'm john coctostan

I'm Brian, and so is my wife!

788 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:14:47am

re: #762 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I was expecting a picture like this...

what's really creepy is watching one eat an animal that a bug usually has no business eating...

789 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:15:00am

re: #784 drcordell

Oh don't worry, Cordell, you can expect i'll explain my downdings of you. But thanks for assuming I wouldn't.

Do you get my point about being able to say Israel should do certain actions because they are the right ethical choices to make vs. saying they should do those actions as an act of appeasement?

790 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:15:51am

re: #788 Aceofwhat?

That one has an inverted food chain diagram.

791 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:17:07am

re: #767 drcordell

And that is your opinion. J-street is of a different opinion. An opinion that happens to have a decent amount of support amongst Israelis themselves. That doesn't mean you get to decide who is and isn't for Israel's safety.

You're going to tell me that the Retired Head of the Israeli Navy and Shin Bet, Ami Ayalon, supports a group that wishes to see Israel destroyed? Right.

No, they think that if Israel makes enough concessions that they will have peace - a flawed theory that has proven itself to be precisely that with the Gaza disengagement.

Ayalon is wrong. J Street is wrong. The facts bear that out.

792 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:17:56am

re: #790 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That one has an inverted food chain diagram.

as does this golden orb weaver.

793 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:19:17am

re: #777 Aceofwhat?

in which direction? i managed to be on LGF sabbatical during those most of those little chats...

IIRC, 'human rights' by him was a meaningless, coercive, Marxist phrase.

794 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:19:39am

re: #785 Obdicut

I downdinged you just now for the 'Duhhh' thing, and for still avoiding the topic of the Arab states changing themselves and why you don't think that's possible, and for refusing to identify how, if the Arab states are inflaming the conflict, Israel could ever unilaterally solve the problem.

On that last bit - Israel has tried the unilateral part - to disengage from Gaza and hand it over in toto.

Hamas responded with suicide bombings and destroying what infrastructure there was in Gaza. They started a rocket war.

Unilateral wont even work with the Palestinians who have no interest in peace. They (Fatah and Hamas) want Israel to cease to exist. Those terror groups differ only on the timeframe.

795 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:19:47am

re: #792 Aceofwhat?

GAH!

796 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:20:08am

re: #780 drcordell

it doesn't make sense when your explanation of "act" has repeatedly been synonymous with groveling surrender and flight.

so, in that respect, no. it doesn't make sense.

on the other hand, i could take your post and add a paragraph explaining that "act" means (insert list of actions that Israel is currently taking) and i'd be ecstatic to admit that you've made a rare bit of sense...

797 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:20:52am

re: #780 drcordell

Duhhh. *facepalm*

You can't understand the difference between being the cause of the problem, and being the solution to the problem? As I outlined before, yes it's the Arab states that created this crisis. Yes, it's the Arab states that are culpable for continuing the crisis. But NO, the Arab states DO NOT have motivation to resolve the conflict. It is extremely valuable as a political football for the repressive regimes of Egypt et al.

Therefore, if there is to be a solution, it must be Israel that takes the drivers seat, along with the United States. And because it is Israel's existence that is the most threatened by the long-term continuance of this conflict, I believe it is in her best interest to act. Does that make sense?

you are absolutely right. if the Israelis would just voluntarily solve the arab/Israeli problem by committing national suicide, there would be no more Israeli "problem." Me thinks your "moral compass" needs calibrating.

798 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:20:56am

re: #793 SanFranciscoZionist

IIRC, 'human rights' by him was a meaningless, coercive, Marxist phrase.

unfortunate. context is such an underrated companion, at times...

799 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:21:03am

re: #785 Obdicut

I downdinged you just now for the 'Duhhh' thing, and for still avoiding the topic of the Arab states changing themselves and why you don't think that's possible, and for refusing to identify how, if the Arab states are inflaming the conflict, Israel could ever unilaterally solve the problem.

You really need me to explain why Arab states won't magically turn into democracies overnight? Ok, here goes. The regimes in place have completely cemented themselves in power. They have the support of the United States Government. Egypt is the single largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid. Jordan is number two.

We live in the year 2010. When was the last time you saw a popular uprising overthrow a government backed by a major world power? Been watching the news out of Iran lately? How's that green revolution going? People's revolutions hardly stand a chance against an entrenched government that can maintain a base of support. People with pitchforks and rocks in the streets don't stand a chance against armies and police forces armed with modern technology.

The statement of fact that the Arab states surrounding Israel have repressive regimes firmly cemented in power is not a racist dig against Arabs. It's a statement of FACT.

Now, that being said. The political powers that be of the surrounding Arab states don't have any impetus to solve the Palestinian crisis. That does not mean that the Palestinians themselves do not. They are the ones who have motivation to help resolve the crisis, because they are the ones who are trapped in no-man's land right now. If Israel takes the impetus to restart the peace process, the Palestinians have every motivation to follow suit. The Arab states do not, because they would lose their political football. But the Palestinian people have every reason to be motivated to end the conflict. Just as the Israeli people have every reason to be motivated to end the conflict. No more bloodshed. No more loss of innocent life.

800 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:22:35am

re: #791 lawhawk

No, they think that if Israel makes enough concessions that they will have peace - a flawed theory that has proven itself to be precisely that with the Gaza disengagement.

Ayalon is wrong. J Street is wrong. The facts bear that out.

In your opinion. Not in the opinion of many, many others.

801 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:22:37am

re: #795 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

GAH!

praying mantis.

yes, the Discovery channel is on the background at my house a lot.

802 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:23:45am

re: #797 _RememberTonyC

you are absolutely right. if the Israelis would just voluntarily solve the arab/Israeli problem by committing national suicide, there would be no more Israeli "problem." Me thinks your "moral compass" needs calibrating.

Yeah that's exactly what I said. Thank you so much for that insightful commentary.

803 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:24:12am

re: #800 drcordell

In your opinion. Not in the opinion of many, many a few, mostly antisemitic others.

i put a little spackling compound and paint on that hole for you. this one's on me...

804 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:24:33am

re: #767 drcordell

And that is your opinion. J-street is of a different opinion. An opinion that happens to have a decent amount of support amongst Israelis themselves. That doesn't mean you get to decide who is and isn't for Israel's safety.

You're going to tell me that the Retired Head of the Israeli Navy and Shin Bet, Ami Ayalon, supports a group that wishes to see Israel destroyed? Right.

Groups like "Peace Now," "J Street" et al. are all self-delusional because they think that Israel making more and more concrete concessions, while expecting nothing from the Arabs but empty promises, will bring "peace." We see how well this worked in Gaza.

You cling to the pathetic excuse that because you share the same delusions, you're off the hook for latent anti-Semitism.

805 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:25:06am

re: #799 drcordell

You're still avoiding the question of how exactly Israel is supposed to singlehandedly pull off ending this crisis, without committing national suicide. You state categorically that the people commonly referred to as Palestinians "should" have a vested interest in ending the conflict, but it is easily demonstrated that they do not.

806 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:25:35am

re: #799 drcordell

Ok, here goes. The regimes in place have completely cemented themselves in power. They have the support of the United States Government.

Gee, I wonder if something could be done with that part?

We live in the year 2010. When was the last time you saw a popular uprising overthrow a government backed by a major world power?

The Soviet Union was kind of dramatic, I don't know if you caught that one.

The statement of fact that the Arab states surrounding Israel have repressive regimes firmly cemented in power is not a racist dig against Arabs. It's a statement of FACT.

Given I've stated that several times, I have no idea why you're repeating it back to me.

Been watching the news out of Iran lately? How's that green revolution going?

Man, you're an asshole sometimes. Do you realize how awful that statement sounds?

Tell me this: What do you think will be necessary for the regimes in the Arab states to be brought to an end? What will have to happen?

807 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:26:06am

re: #804 Alouette

j'aime bien cette Alouette, mais sur ce sujet, elle n'est pas une gentille Alouette!! (pour bonne raison, bien sur)

808 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:26:38am

re: #801 Aceofwhat?

praying mantis.

yes, the Discovery channel is on the background at my house a lot.

Did you see that one the other night with the plague of mice in Australia? Or the ants in Africa?

Stuff of nightmares.

809 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:29:22am

re: #802 drcordell

Yeah that's exactly what I said. Thank you so much for that insightful commentary.

you seem to think the "palestinian" people have "permission" from the rest of the arab/muslim world to act in their own interest and pursue REAL peace alongside Israel. they never have had that permission and probably never will. there may well be pockets of palestinians who genuinely want peace, but they have no power and no support from other arabs. So until THAT changes, all of your other little theories are worthless.

810 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:29:53am

re: #796 Aceofwhat?

it doesn't make sense when your explanation of "act" has repeatedly been synonymous with groveling surrender and flight.

so, in that respect, no. it doesn't make sense.

on the other hand, i could take your post and add a paragraph explaining that "act" means (insert list of actions that Israel is currently taking) and i'd be ecstatic to admit that you've made a rare bit of sense...

How the fuck are you going to convince an entire group of Palestinians to stop fighting you at bayonet point? Anything short of invading Gaza is considered Israeli "surrender" to you. They are called negotiations because they involve negotiating. Oftentimes that requires a quid-pro-quo.

By your metric, 48% of Israel wants to "surrender" to the Palestinians because they support the cease-fire and a return to negotiations.

[Link: www.pcpsr.org...]

811 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:29:57am

re: #808 Stanley Sea

Did you see that one the other night with the plague of mice in Australia? Or the ants in Africa?

Stuff of nightmares.

the Swarms show? absolutely.

It's so easy to forget how Australians pay for their wonderful climate by putting up with an astonishing number and variety of extremely poisonous animals and insects. We have nothing here that compares.

812 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:30:27am

re: #803 Aceofwhat?

i put a little spackling compound and paint on that hole for you. this one's on me...

And there we go. Here comes the anti-semitism trump card. Right on cue.

813 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:30:47am

re: #800 drcordell

In your opinion. Not in the opinion of many, many others.

You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.

Israel unilaterally disengaged from Gaza in 2005 in an effort to kick start the peace process and get Israeli troops out of Gaza, where the diplomats were continuously claiming that Israeli forces there were heightening the tensions and sparking conflict. Most observers thought that this would move the peace process forward.

So they left. Palestinians were fully in charge from 2005 forward.

They started a war with Israel with the territories Israel just left.

That's indisputable as a fact.

Those who now think Israel should be making more concessions for the sake of peace ignore the fact that Israel has already made painful concession after concession without getting a single moment's peace in return. The thousands of rocket and mortar attacks; the thousands of thwarted terror attacks show the problem with your line of reasoning. It simply isn't rooted in the facts on the ground.

814 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:30:57am

re: #799 drcordell

After reading your analysis, it looks like the logical thing for the US to do, in the interest of peace between Palestinians and Israel, would be to withdraw support from Egypt, Syria, Iran, etc., rather than insisting that Israel make more concessions. What else would give them any incentive for peace? And the same would go for Palestinians, who, in your analysis, already have incentive for peace, but in reality, their elected leaders act like they don't.

815 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:31:08am

re: #806 Obdicut

Man, you're an asshole sometimes. Do you realize how awful that statement sounds?

Tell me this: What do you think will be necessary for the regimes in the Arab states to be brought to an end? What will have to happen?

The United States will have to stop supporting them.

816 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:31:52am

re: #814 wrenchwench

After reading your analysis, it looks like the logical thing for the US to do, in the interest of peace between Palestinians and Israel, would be to withdraw support from Egypt, Syria, Iran, etc., rather than insisting that Israel make more concessions. What else would give them any incentive for peace? And the same would go for Palestinians, who, in your analysis, already have incentive for peace, but in reality, their elected leaders act like they don't.

We don't support Iran. But aside from that I agree with you. Yes, we should stop supporting Egypt and Jordan.

817 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:31:55am

re: #810 drcordell

They are called negotiations because they involve negotiating. Oftentimes that requires a quid-pro-quo.

How in the hell do you negotiate with people whose only demand is "We want you, your country, and your entire race, to disappear from the face of the earth?" The Israelis tried unilaterally giving them what they wanted. They still sent over suicide bombers and rockets to blow the hell out of the Jews. It just plain doesn't work.

818 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:32:09am

re: #810 drcordell

How the fuck are you going to convince an entire group of Palestinians to stop fighting you at bayonet point? Anything short of invading Gaza is considered Israeli "surrender" to you. They are called negotiations because they involve negotiating. Oftentimes that requires a quid-pro-quo.

By your metric, 48% of Israel wants to "surrender" to the Palestinians because they support the cease-fire and a return to negotiations.

[Link: www.pcpsr.org...]

And in past negotiations, you've seen quid and quo? Because i've seen lots of quid. the quo is really hard to come by. At some point, if it were me, i'd think "hey - i'm all out of quid - so here's a big wall. have fun."

819 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:32:18am

re: #811 Aceofwhat?

the Swarms show? absolutely.

It's so easy to forget how Australians pay for their wonderful climate by putting up with an astonishing number and variety of extremely poisonous animals and insects. We have nothing here that compares.

That was exactly my takeaway. I could never live there, looking for 5" spiders in my clothes every day. It's a weakness.

820 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:32:44am

re: #807 Aceofwhat?

j'aime bien cette Alouette, mais sur ce sujet, elle n'est pas une gentille Alouette!! (pour bonne raison, bien sur)

Je lui plumerai

821 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:33:02am

re: #804 Alouette

Groups like "Peace Now," "J Street" et al. are all self-delusional because they think that Israel making more and more concrete concessions, while expecting nothing from the Arabs but empty promises, will bring "peace." We see how well this worked in Gaza.

You cling to the pathetic excuse that because you share the same delusions, you're off the hook for latent anti-Semitism.

Fuck you. How fucking DARE you call me an anti-semite.

822 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:33:34am

re: #815 drcordell

The United States will have to stop supporting them.

Your ignorance of the facts are just flat out astounding.

Care to inform the forum how the US supports:

1) Syria
2) Iran.

Those two countries are the prime supporters of Hamas and Hizbullah; two of the biggest threats to Israel's existence and Syria further exerts influence on Lebanon, where Hizbullah has set up a permanent statelet on Israel's border.

Neither has US support - so where's that pressure going to come from.

823 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:33:35am

re: #812 drcordell

And there we go. Here comes the anti-semitism trump card. Right on cue.

i said "most". say what you want about me, i work strenuously to limit the size of my brush.

and warnings ≠ trump cards. just so you know.

824 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:34:10am

re: #821 drcordell

Fuck you. How fucking DARE you call me an anti-semite.

So you're a delusional fool. That works.

825 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:34:12am

re: #810 drcordell

Your last point is a perfectly fair one. However, you should include this part:

70% of the Israeli public don’t believe that the new Israeli government will succeed to lead Israel to a final status settlement with the Palestinians, while 18% believe it will succeed. Among the Palestinians, 7% expect that negotiations with the new government will be more successful in ending settlement expansion and bringing peace, and 62% expect settlements to continue to expand and peace efforts to fail. In this regard, 70% of the Palestinians think that there is no difference between Israeli right-wing parties and parties of the center and left; 26% think that there are differences between them.


And this part:

Among Israelis, 30% suggest that Israel should reoccupy the Gaza Strip and stay there if the shelling of Israeli communities from the Gaza Strip continues; 38% think that Israel should carry out ad-hoc operations against the shelling and get out; 28% believe that Israel should use primarily diplomatic rather than military steps.

So while they support a ceasefire, 68% of them want a military response to shelling.

And there will be shelling.

826 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:34:42am

re: #818 Aceofwhat?

And in past negotiations, you've seen quid and quo? Because i've seen lots of quid. the quo is really hard to come by. At some point, if it were me, i'd think "hey - i'm all out of quid - so here's a big wall. have fun."

And thats YOU. Others don't see it that way. Including nearly HALF of all Israelis. Because they realize that if this conflict continues indefinitely it only weakens the state of Israel.

827 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:35:55am

re: #826 drcordell

And thats YOU. Others don't see it that way. Including nearly HALF of all Israelis. Because they realize that if this conflict continues indefinitely it only weakens the state of Israel.

Yet the Palestinians have no problems continuing the conflict indefinitely until they achieve their goals - the cessation of the existence of Israel. Just ignore that and your positions make perfect sense.

828 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:37:06am

re: #825 Obdicut
And this part:

So while they support a ceasefire, 68% of them want a military response to shelling.

And there will be shelling.

Right. And that means 32% does not. Roughly one-third of the entire population of the state of Israel. Not some "fringe." One of out every THREE. But to listen to Alouette, that means 1 in 3 Israeli's is an anti-semite? Because they all want Israel to surrender and every Israeli to die?

All I'm trying to say is that J-street is not a fringe group. The concept of land for peace is not a fringe concept in Israel. Only in the United States are you considered a DumbFuckingHippieAntiSemite if you hold the same views as 32% of Israelis.

829 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:37:35am

re: #824 Alouette

So you're a delusional fool. That works.

or hopelessly naive ...

830 reine.de.tout  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:38:11am

re: #810 drcordell

How the fuck are you going to convince an entire group of Palestinians to stop fighting you at bayonet point? . . .

Now I'm really confused.
Because here, it seemed you were saying just that, that the Palestinian people could indeed be convinced to stop fighting, re: #799 drcordell

The political powers that be of the surrounding Arab states don't have any impetus to solve the Palestinian crisis. That does not mean that the Palestinians themselves do not. They are the ones who have motivation to help resolve the crisis, because they are the ones who are trapped in no-man's land right now. If Israel takes the impetus to restart the peace process, the Palestinians have every motivation to follow suit.

831 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:38:46am

re: #811 Aceofwhat?

the Swarms show? absolutely.

It's so easy to forget how Australians pay for their wonderful climate by putting up with an astonishing number and variety of extremely poisonous animals and insects. We have nothing here that compares.

Bill Bryson describes some of the more deadly Australian species in his book about Australia. Creepy stuff.

832 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:39:32am

re: #827 lawhawk

Yet the Palestinians have no problems continuing the conflict indefinitely until they achieve their goals - the cessation of the existence of Israel. Just ignore that and your positions make perfect sense.

You speak of the Palestinians like they are acting in unanimity. As if there is ONE Palestinian perspective. There isn't. Go look at the polls I have linked to.

Yes, I'm sure there are Palestinians that want Israel to cease to exist. And I'm sure there are Israelis who wish that the Palestinians ceased to exist. But that doesn't mean you can act as if those people speak for their entire communities.

[Link: www.pcpsr.org...]

833 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:39:47am

re: #815 drcordell

I think rather we should make continued support increasingly conditional. Doesn't totally solve the problem, though, and is a little Western Parternalistic.

My problem with you, Cordell, is that I think you're unconsciously buying into some racism or culturalism, and do not believe that the Muslim world can actually find a path to growth, liberalism, and peace on its own. I do not like it when people on the 'right' suggest that Islam is somehow more inherently bad than other religions, and I do not like it when people on the 'left' suggest those poor ignorant Arabs just can't help themselves. I have great sympathy for the citizens who are kept ignorant and fed propaganda, but that's not excuse enough-- the educated elite are party to the deception as well. I think it is paternalistic to suggest that the Muslim world lacks some je ne sais quoi that is a requirement for revolution, because I feel that you're identifying that with the Western world.

834 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:40:07am

re: #816 drcordell

We don't support Iran. But aside from that I agree with you. Yes, we should stop supporting Egypt and Jordan.

And what about the next part:

And the same would go for Palestinians, who, in your analysis, already have incentive for peace, but in reality, their elected leaders act like they don't.

Wouldn't that increase their motivation for peace?

835 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:40:28am

re: #828 drcordell

It may not be a fringe concept, but it is a concept that has been proven not to work. Which, in my line of work, makes it... wrong.

836 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:41:26am

re: #828 drcordell

And this part:

So while they support a ceasefire, 68% of them want a military response to shelling.

And there will be shelling.


Right. And that means 32% does not. Roughly one-third of the entire population of the state of Israel. Not some "fringe." One of out every THREE. But to listen to Alouette, that means 1 in 3 Israeli's is an anti-semite? Because they all want Israel to surrender and every Israeli to die?

All I'm trying to say is that J-street is not a fringe group. The concept of land for peace is not a fringe concept in Israel. Only in the United States are you considered a DumbFuckingHippieAntiSemite if you hold the same views as 32% of Israelis.

Why do you so desperately cling to all the fallacies of the delusional Israeli left even though they have been proven wrong time and time again? Meretz does not even have a single seat in the Knesset, that shows you how much the "typical Israeli" agrees with their agenda.

J Street is also a fringe group, established by an attention queen who craves the "power" that he believes AIPAC has. They are not "pro-Israel" in any way, shape or form, in spite of their PR campaign.

837 reine.de.tout  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:42:17am

re: #835 thedopefishlives

It may not be a fringe concept, but it is a concept that has been proven not to work. Which, in my line of work, makes it... wrong.

Time for this, methinks.

838 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:42:46am

re: #828 drcordell

I don't think that any characterization of you as an antisemite is fair, and I've said so.

839 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:43:46am

re: #830 reine.de.tout

Now I'm really confused.
Because here, it seemed you were saying just that, that the Palestinian people could indeed be convinced to stop fighting, re: #799 drcordell

The political powers that be of the surrounding Arab states don't have any impetus to solve the Palestinian crisis. That does not mean that the Palestinians themselves do not. They are the ones who have motivation to help resolve the crisis, because they are the ones who are trapped in no-man's land right now. If Israel takes the impetus to restart the peace process, the Palestinians have every motivation to follow suit.

You heard me right. Yes, a large majority of Palestinians want peace. It is a violent minority that wishes to continue the armed conflict. No, you cannot force the armed Palestinians to disarm with military action. I don't believe those statements are in conflict with one another.

You can't win terrorist wars with invasions. If the U.S. hasn't proven this in Iraq I don't know what will. There is simply no way to root terrorist individuals out of a population with military force. Unless you wish to create 2 new terrorists for each one you kill.

840 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:44:15am

re: #835 thedopefishlives

Well, that's not quite fair. Ceasefires should be embraced whenever they are actually possible, but not under conditions. Any complete solution will involve a ceasefire, but the underlying situation has to change, or the ceasefire will simply be immediately violated like every other one.

841 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:45:40am

re: #839 drcordell

You heard me right. Yes, a large majority of Palestinians want peace. It is a violent minority that wishes to continue the armed conflict. No, you cannot force the armed Palestinians to disarm with military action. I don't believe those statements are in conflict with one another.

You can't win terrorist wars with invasions. If the U.S. hasn't proven this in Iraq I don't know what will. There is simply no way to root terrorist individuals out of a population with military force. Unless you wish to create 2 new terrorists for each one you kill.

Sure they want peace, when Israel is destroyed.

842 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:45:54am

re: #836 Alouette

His point about the number of Israeli's who prefer primarily diplomatic response even to continued shelling is a perfectly fair one, though, even if you consider those Israelis delusional.

843 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:46:23am

re: #826 drcordell

And thats YOU. Others don't see it that way. Including nearly HALF of all Israelis. Because they realize that if this conflict continues indefinitely it only weakens the state of Israel.

i am interested to see you list all of the things that the Palestinians have done in good faith, according to their good word...

844 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:47:30am

re: #843 Aceofwhat?

i am interested to see you list all of the things that the Palestinians have done in good faith, according to their good word...

Don't hold your breath on that one.

845 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:48:10am

re: #833 Obdicut

I think rather we should make continued support increasingly conditional. Doesn't totally solve the problem, though, and is a little Western Parternalistic.

My problem with you, Cordell, is that I think you're unconsciously buying into some racism or culturalism, and do not believe that the Muslim world can actually find a path to growth, liberalism, and peace on its own. I do not like it when people on the 'right' suggest that Islam is somehow more inherently bad than other religions, and I do not like it when people on the 'left' suggest those poor ignorant Arabs just can't help themselves. I have great sympathy for the citizens who are kept ignorant and fed propaganda, but that's not excuse enough-- the educated elite are party to the deception as well. I think it is paternalistic to suggest that the Muslim world lacks some je ne sais quoi that is a requirement for revolution, because I feel that you're identifying that with the Western world.

I'm saying that the conditions in the Arab states surrounding Israel have given me absolutely no reason to believe they will change their political structure any time soon. First and foremost, the regimes in power are not afraid to be brutal when necessary to maintain their grip on power. Second, they have the explicit monetary support of the United States Government. Third, in a modern state the police and military have such a massive technological advantage over any civilian uprising, that revolution has become much more challenging. IMHO, for any revolution in those states to succeed, it would require a military coup. Which, is even more unlikely as the military in both Egypt and Jordan is filled with hard-liners.

It's not an indescribable something that's preventing the formation of a liberal democracy, it's all the factors listed above. And I don't believe using our foreign aid cash as a carrot on a stick to force Egypt and Jordan's hand with regard to Palestine is paternalism. That's just smart foreign policy.

846 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:48:38am

re: #835 thedopefishlives

It may not be a fringe concept, but it is a concept that has been proven not to work. Which, in my line of work, makes it... wrong.

that was entirely too sensible for this discussion, imho//

847 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:49:08am

Any attempt at moral equivalence between the actions of the Israelis and the palestinians is a joke. Israel has accepted palestinians into its hospitals for treatment out of humanitarian concerns. if any Israeli finds themself in a situation to receive palestinian "hospitality," they can expect to be treated far less kindly. And by the way, if Israel was as brutal as its enemies say, there would be no gaza left standing at all.

848 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:49:53am

re: #839 drcordell

I'm sorry, but this figure, from the poll you've been citing:

54% of the Palestinians support and 42% oppose armed attacks against Israeli civilians inside Israel.

Does not, to me, indicate a majority support for peace.

Nor does this:

38% of the Palestinians support and 58% oppose return to Palestinian-Israeli final status negotiations before an Israeli freeze on settlement activity.

They're not willing to grant peace before settlements are stopped.

If you mean "support a ceasefire", you are correct:

Among Palestinians support for a cease fire is similar to what it was in December: 75% support and 23% oppose the renewal of the cease fire in Gaza

849 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:51:21am

re: #832 drcordell

You speak of the Palestinians like they are acting in unanimity. As if there is ONE Palestinian perspective. There isn't. Go look at the polls I have linked to.

Yes, I'm sure there are Palestinians that want Israel to cease to exist. And I'm sure there are Israelis who wish that the Palestinians ceased to exist. But that doesn't mean you can act as if those people speak for their entire communities.

[Link: www.pcpsr.org...]

Who's in charge of the Palestinians? Who is their government? Who makes the decisions for the Palestinians people.

Let me answer that for you since you keep ignoring central facts to the situation:

Hamas was elected to a majority of seats in the Palestinian legislature. Fatah was second. In third place was Islamic Jihad, which is just as bad as Hamas. The Palestinian legislature is part of the Palestinian Authority, which is the sole representative of the Palestinian people.

All three groups are still dedicated to Israel's destruction.

That's the official representatives in the peace process - the Palestinian Authority.

All your polling is meaningless when the thugs in charge are the ones calling the shots (that would be Hamas and Fatah). Those who call for peace are an endangered species among the Palestinians and either condition their statements as part of a hudna or are outright lying about their intentions and goals.

850 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:51:51am

re: #845 drcordell

I don't share your pessimism about revolution in the modern day, and would ask you how the hell you explain the revolution the USSR, then?

851 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:52:07am

re: #839 drcordell

You heard me right. Yes, a large majority of Palestinians want peace. It is a violent minority that wishes to continue the armed conflict. No, you cannot force the armed Palestinians to disarm with military action. I don't believe those statements are in conflict with one another.

You can't win terrorist wars with invasions. If the U.S. hasn't proven this in Iraq I don't know what will. There is simply no way to root terrorist individuals out of a population with military force. Unless you wish to create 2 new terrorists for each one you kill.

Doesn't anyone understand what Dr. Cordell is saying. he is saying that it's only a small radical element of Palestinians what want to destroy Israel.

Just because this small minority is capable of hijacking any and all peace processes, just because this small minority will never stop terrorizing Israel and just because this small minority rules, doesn't mean that Israel should try to get rid of this small minority.

If Israel keeps trying to protect itself, before you know it, they will have created twice as many Palestinians who want to destroy Israel.

Israel better stop while they are ahead.
/

852 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:53:26am

re: #843 Aceofwhat?

i am interested to see you list all of the things that the Palestinians have done in good faith, according to their good word...

Quite frankly, there isn't much the Palestinians have an option to do. Maintain the cease-fire is really the only thing they can do. Which, I'm sure you will point out, has not had a great track record.

But again, what is to stop a dozen bloodthirsty terrorists from acting on behalf of all of Palestine? The average Palestinian has the ability to control his own actions, and little else. And no, that's not an excuse for the continuation of violence.

But again, there is little that the Palestinians can actually do for themselves. They are not a state. They don't control their own borders. They don't control their own land. Unless they somehow gain the power to ensure that not a single person becomes a terrorist? Which not even the United States can do here.

853 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:54:30am

re: #851 Walter L. Newton

Doesn't anyone understand what Dr. Cordell is saying. he is saying that it's only a small radical element of Palestinians what want to destroy Israel.

Just because this small minority is capable of hijacking any and all peace processes, just because this small minority will never stop terrorizing Israel and just because this small minority rules, doesn't mean that Israel should try to get rid of this small minority.

If Israel keeps trying to protect itself, before you know it, they will have created twice as many Palestinians who want to destroy Israel.

Israel better stop while they are ahead.
/

If they are such a "small minority" how did they get such an overwhelming majority of votes?

And by the same token, the Israeli leftist party of Meretz embodies all the policies that cordell insists are embraced by a "majority" of Israelis, but they can't even get elected to one seat in the Knesset.

854 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:55:09am

re: #850 Obdicut

I don't share your pessimism about revolution in the modern day, and would ask you how the hell you explain the revolution the USSR, then?

Did you read the part about the military coup? Do you actually think the Soviet people battled hand to hand in the streets against Soviet tanks and police? No. The military decided that the USSR was done.

So, unless the Egyptian military decides that all of a sudden it wants a democracy...

855 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:55:31am

re: #852 drcordell

Quite frankly, there isn't much the Palestinians have an option to do. Maintain the cease-fire is really the only thing they can do. Which, I'm sure you will point out, has not had a great track record.

But again, what is to stop a dozen bloodthirsty terrorists from acting on behalf of all of Palestine? The average Palestinian has the ability to control his own actions, and little else. And no, that's not an excuse for the continuation of violence.

But again, there is little that the Palestinians can actually do for themselves. They are not a state. They don't control their own borders. They don't control their own land. Unless they somehow gain the power to ensure that not a single person becomes a terrorist? Which not even the United States can do here.

How about they return Gilad Shalit, as a gesture of good faith, just like Israel removed 8,000 Jews from Gaza.

856 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:55:40am

re: #815 drcordell

The United States will have to stop supporting them.

Of course there is the niggling little question of what types of regimes would replace the Arab regimes.
hint: Islamofascist Anti-Semitic Anti-Western Theocracies

857 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:56:12am

re: #853 Alouette

If they are such a "small minority" how did they get such an overwhelming majority of votes?

And by the same token, the Israeli leftist party of Meretz embodies all the policies that cordell insists are embraced by a "majority" of Israelis, but they can't even get elected to one seat in the Knesset.

And you know I was being sarcastic... see the little "tag." Normally I don't leave sarcasm tags, even when I am being sarcastic, but I thought that this was serious enough a topic that I didn't want any confusion as to where I stood.

858 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:56:14am

re: #852 drcordell

Quite frankly, there isn't much the Palestinians have an option to do. Maintain the cease-fire is really the only thing they can do. Which, I'm sure you will point out, has not had a great track record.

But again, what is to stop a dozen bloodthirsty terrorists from acting on behalf of all of Palestine? The average Palestinian has the ability to control his own actions, and little else. And no, that's not an excuse for the continuation of violence.

But again, there is little that the Palestinians can actually do for themselves. They are not a state. They don't control their own borders. They don't control their own land. Unless they somehow gain the power to ensure that not a single person becomes a terrorist? Which not even the United States can do here.

you make the 'perfect' the enemy of the 'good' at the expense of your already tenuous logic.

Fatah and Hamas are perfectly capable of demonstrating to their 'citizens' that they intend to brutally squash any attempt to terrorize Israeli civilians. They lack the desire, not the means. To say otherwise is to invite discussion about whether the sky is actually blue.

859 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:56:31am

re: #852 drcordell

How do you explain greater than fifty-percent approval for attacks on civilians amongst Palestinians?

That's intentional attacks.

How does that fit with the narrative of just some terrorists doing something in Palestine's name?

Doesn't more than 50% approval of their actions imply that the majority approve of their actions? Doesn't A=A?

860 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:58:41am

re: #853 Alouette

If they are such a "small minority" how did they get such an overwhelming majority of votes?

And by the same token, the Israeli leftist party of Meretz embodies all the policies that cordell insists are embraced by a "majority" of Israelis, but they can't even get elected to one seat in the Knesset.

Have you payed attention to the Palestinian elections at all? You do realize that the way Hamas won the elections was because they transformed themselves into a social services organization within Palestine. They provided food aid, employment assistance, medical care, and many other services in Gaza. That is why they won the election. Also, Fatah was pilloried as being full of corrupt assholes who simply sought to enrich themselves without actually benefiting the Palestinian people.

Yes, Hamas is still a terrorist organization. But you must realize that they gained the support of the Palestinians because of the ineptitude and corruption of Fatah. A vote for Hamas was not explicitly a vote for the continuation of terror.

861 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:59:37am

re: #859 Obdicut

How do you explain greater than fifty-percent approval for attacks on civilians amongst Palestinians?

That's intentional attacks.

How does that fit with the narrative of just some terrorists doing something in Palestine's name?

Doesn't more than 50% approval of their actions imply that the majority approve of their actions? Doesn't A=A?

Exactly. If a French-born terrorist did something horrible in the USA, France would be perfectly happy and able to express in no uncertain terms how much of a rogue incident it was. Sometimes crazy people do crazy things.

(As opposed to taking to the streets en masse, burning things in effigy, and shooting guns into the air in celebration of said act.)

862 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 10:59:40am

re: #855 Alouette

How about they return Gilad Shalit, as a gesture of good faith, just like Israel removed 8,000 Jews from Gaza.

I agree with you.

863 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:01:08am

re: #859 Obdicut

How do you explain greater than fifty-percent approval for attacks on civilians amongst Palestinians?

That's intentional attacks.

How does that fit with the narrative of just some terrorists doing something in Palestine's name?

Doesn't more than 50% approval of their actions imply that the majority approve of their actions? Doesn't A=A?

Where is that number from?

864 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:01:52am

re: #863 drcordell

From the poll that you cited earlier in support of your own points.

[Link: www.pcpsr.org...]

865 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:01:58am

re: #863 drcordell

Where is that number from?

*groan*

your own poll.

866 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:02:16am

re: #860 drcordell

Have you payed attention to the Palestinian elections at all? You do realize that the way Hamas won the elections was because they transformed themselves into a social services organization within Palestine. They provided food aid, employment assistance, medical care, and many other services in Gaza. That is why they won the election. Also, Fatah was pilloried as being full of corrupt assholes who simply sought to enrich themselves without actually benefiting the Palestinian people.

Yes, Hamas is still a terrorist organization. But you must realize that they gained the support of the Palestinians because of the ineptitude and corruption of Fatah. A vote for Hamas was not explicitly a vote for the continuation of terror.

If you have been paying attention, you would realize that Hamas does not provide food, employment, and social services. What they do is withhold the aid contributed by the UN, the EU, and yes Israel, and dole it out to their supporters, like warlords.

867 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:02:46am

re: #863 drcordell

Where is that number from?

ARMED OPERATIONS

How do Palestinians feel about continuing armed operations against the State of Israel? Just under half of them (46 percent) support armed attacks against Israeli targets, and a third (34 percent) oppose them. In Gaza, about 50 percent of the survey respondents express support for armed operations; in the West Bank, this figure is 44 percent.

[Link: www.meforum.org...]

868 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:04:54am

re: #851 Walter L. Newton

Doesn't anyone understand what Dr. Cordell is saying. he is saying that it's only a small radical element of Palestinians what want to destroy Israel.

Just because this small minority is capable of hijacking any and all peace processes, just because this small minority will never stop terrorizing Israel and just because this small minority rules, doesn't mean that Israel should try to get rid of this small minority.

If Israel keeps trying to protect itself, before you know it, they will have created twice as many Palestinians who want to destroy Israel.

Israel better stop while they are ahead.
/

You did a pretty nice job of summarizing there. But you are off on just a few points. Of course I think that Israel needs to try and get rid of the small minority of Palestinians who wish to continue violence and hijack the peace process. The difference is, I believe that it is completely irrational to believe that this minority can ever be defeated by military force. Again, go ask the U.S. military how the counter-insurgency is going in Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Pakistan. You can't destroy a terrorist insurgency with military power.

869 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:05:45am

re: #868 drcordell

Why do you continue to say it's a small minority of Palestinians?

870 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:06:52am

re: #868 drcordell

You did a pretty nice job of summarizing there. But you are off on just a few points. Of course I think that Israel needs to try and get rid of the small minority of Palestinians who wish to continue violence and hijack the peace process. The difference is, I believe that it is completely irrational to believe that this minority can ever be defeated by military force. Again, go ask the U.S. military how the counter-insurgency is going in Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Pakistan. You can't destroy a terrorist insurgency with military power.

How do they get rid of that "small minority?"

871 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:07:11am

re: #869 Obdicut

Why do you continue to say it's a small minority of Palestinians?

accuracy is sooo inconvenient, sometimes...

872 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:08:00am

re: #869 Obdicut

Why do you continue to say it's a small minority of Palestinians?

Because he used that term up thread, and he is now stuck with the meme. Both you and I have linked to different polls that show similar outcomes, yet he ignores them.

Any wonder why?

873 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:08:07am

re: #869 Obdicut

Why do you continue to say it's a small minority of Palestinians?

Well, in the face of that poll number that I did not see previously, I guess I can't. That being said, 48% is not 100%. And I know that sounds like splitting hairs, but it's still a pretty big difference.

874 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:08:55am

re: #868 drcordell

You did a pretty nice job of summarizing there. But you are off on just a few points. Of course I think that Israel needs to try and get rid of the small minority of Palestinians who wish to continue violence and hijack the peace process. The difference is, I believe that it is completely irrational to believe that this minority can ever be defeated by military force. Again, go ask the U.S. military how the counter-insurgency is going in Iraq, or Afghanistan, or Pakistan. You can't destroy a terrorist insurgency with military power.

as an aside, the US military agreeing that they were not prepared for the Iraq counterinsurgency and that they have not effectively beaten down the Iraq counterinsurgency are two different things.

You can destroy a terrorist insurgency with military power. It's just not easy.

875 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:08:58am

re: #873 drcordell

Well, in the face of that poll number that I did not see previously, I guess I can't. That being said, 48% is not 100%. And I know that sounds like splitting hairs, but it's still a pretty big difference.

Who ever used the figure 100 percent?

876 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:09:50am

re: #873 drcordell

Well, in the face of that poll number that I did not see previously, I guess I can't. That being said, 48% is not 100%. And I know that sounds like splitting hairs, but it's still a pretty big difference.

54%

877 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:10:00am

re: #874 Aceofwhat?

as an aside, the US military agreeing that they were not prepared for the Iraq counterinsurgency and that they have not effectively beaten down the Iraq counterinsurgency are two different things.

You can destroy a terrorist insurgency with military power. It's just not easy.

I know a number of ways, some are not politically popular right now, but we have proof that it can be done.

878 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:10:26am

re: #873 drcordell

It's a very big difference, and a very important one. If you want to argue that a lot of Palestinians want peace, i'll agree.

However, given that this is the first time you've seen that figure, maybe you should take some time to think about how any of your arguments are changed by the depth of support for terrorist actions amongst the Palestinian population. I think it's rather significant, and I think that it should definitely have an effect on how you approach the situation.

I hope it leads you to realize that Israel is not able to unilaterally achieve peace.

879 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:11:58am

re: #870 Walter L. Newton

How do they get rid of that "small minority?"

Israel can't. At least I don't believe it is possible. And you shouldn't believe it either if you believe any of your previous posts about the Palestinians insistence on remaining violent.

The Palestinians have to get rid of that small minority. And that will be possible when there is an explicit path forward that shows Israel is willing to grant Palestine statehood. When the Palestinians who are sick of the violence can explicitly state that the violence is going to cost Palestinians their shot at having their own state.

880 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:13:14am

re: #874 Aceofwhat?


You can destroy a terrorist insurgency with military power. It's just not easy.

Hahahahahahahaha. Oh really? Care to provide a single example of a terrorist insurgency being destroyed successfully? I suppose I'll take any example, but one from the latter 20th century or 21st century would be the most applicable.

881 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:13:30am

re: #879 drcordell

Israel can't. At least I don't believe it is possible. And you shouldn't believe it either if you believe any of your previous posts about the Palestinians insistence on remaining violent.

The Palestinians have to get rid of that small minority. And that will be possible when there is an explicit path forward that shows Israel is willing to grant Palestine statehood. When the Palestinians who are sick of the violence can explicitly state that the violence is going to cost Palestinians their shot at having their own state.

tsk. believing that further concessions will lead to a suppression of violence despite reams of examples to the contrary is harder than believing in God.

882 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:13:46am

re: #879 drcordell

I really hope you are not working your way around to "The majority of palestinians support terrorist attacks because of Israeli actions". The Palestinians should reject terrorism against civilians because it is ethically wrong.

883 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:14:19am

re: #875 Walter L. Newton

Who ever used the figure 100 percent?

When anyone on this thread uses the singular "Palestinians" in the context of "the Palestinians do not want the violence to stop." That to me implies 100%.

884 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:16:35am

re: #880 drcordell

Hahahahahahahaha. Oh really? Care to provide a single example of a terrorist insurgency being destroyed successfully? I suppose I'll take any example, but one from the latter 20th century or 21st century would be the most applicable.

Sure. If Pakistan had more control over its border, and didn't allow the Taliban to cross, do you think we'd still be fighting?

885 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:16:58am

re: #881 Aceofwhat?

tsk. believing that further concessions will lead to a suppression of violence despite reams of examples to the contrary is harder than believing in God.

So what's your brilliant plan? Keep launching operations like Cast Lead until it really is 100% of the Palestinians who support violence? Where is the end game to your scenario?

Clearly military force hasn't been a deterrent thus far. What else are you going to try?

886 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:17:47am

re: #879 drcordell

Israel can't. At least I don't believe it is possible. And you shouldn't believe it either if you believe any of your previous posts about the Palestinians insistence on remaining violent.

The Palestinians have to get rid of that small minority. And that will be possible when there is an explicit path forward that shows Israel is willing to grant Palestine statehood. When the Palestinians who are sick of the violence can explicitly state that the violence is going to cost Palestinians their shot at having their own state.

Ok... I guess you didn't SEE the sarcasm tag in my post to you. I was being sarcastic... don't you understand that? You took this seriously...

Just because this small minority is capable of hijacking any and all peace processes, just because this small minority will never stop terrorizing Israel and just because this small minority rules, doesn't mean that Israel should try to get rid of this small minority. If Israel keeps trying to protect itself, before you know it, they will have created twice as many Palestinians who want to destroy Israel. Israel better stop while they are ahead.

You really don't understand what is going on over there. You read to much J-Street.

887 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:18:10am

re: #884 Aceofwhat?

Sure. If Pakistan had more control over its border, and didn't allow the Taliban to cross, do you think we'd still be fighting?

So, you'd have an example of a successful counter-insurgency for me, if Pakistan was able to secure one of the most mountainous border regions known to man.

That's really the best example you have?

888 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:18:24am

re: #883 drcordell

Well, I think people are pretty used to the idea of a group being identified by its majority, as unfair as that may be.

I don't read "Americans supported the invasion of Iraq" as meaning 100%, for example.


Now might be a good time, as I said, to rethink stuff. You just got new information. That should have an affect on your views. If it doesn't, you should think about why receiving new information doesn't affect your views.

It should at least take a little while to process and think about.

889 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:18:50am

re: #883 drcordell

When anyone on this thread uses the singular "Palestinians" in the context of "the Palestinians do not want the violence to stop." That to me implies 100%.

how about implying a majority expressed both in polling and, more importantly, in their choice of government?

how do candidates who wish peace with Israel, who wish Israel and Israelis no harm, fare in Palestinian elections?

that is the effective percentage of Palestinians who truly want the violence to stop.

890 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:18:59am

re: #879 drcordell

Israel can't. At least I don't believe it is possible. And you shouldn't believe it either if you believe any of your previous posts about the Palestinians insistence on remaining violent.

The Palestinians have to get rid of that small minority. And that will be possible when there is an explicit path forward that shows Israel is willing to grant Palestine statehood. When the Palestinians who are sick of the violence can explicitly state that the violence is going to cost Palestinians their shot at having their own state.


sadly, the palestinians have been told over and over BY THEIR OWN SIDE that violence is the ONLY way to get a state. and there's not a damn thing Israel can do about THAT.

891 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:19:56am

re: #883 drcordell

When anyone on this thread uses the singular "Palestinians" in the context of "the Palestinians do not want the violence to stop." That to me implies 100%.

But you don't see that 50 percent of the population wanting a armed solution as being a frightening number?

892 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:21:11am

And again, Cordell: I feel there is an argument to be made about stopping the settlements based on ethical grounds alone. I am objecting to you saying that doing so is something the Israeli's should do in order to lessen the conflict. It won't.

893 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:21:20am

re: #880 drcordell

Hahahahahahahaha. Oh really? Care to provide a single example of a terrorist insurgency being destroyed successfully? I suppose I'll take any example, but one from the latter 20th century or 21st century would be the most applicable.


try "googling" Hama 1982 .... in fact, I will do it for you ...

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

894 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:21:24am

re: #885 drcordell

So what's your brilliant plan? Keep launching operations like Cast Lead until it really is 100% of the Palestinians who support violence? Where is the end game to your scenario?

Clearly military force hasn't been a deterrent thus far. What else are you going to try?

Peaceful and unilateral concessions have been even less successful. Nothin has been a deterrent thus far. I would try walling the murderers off, and jeering at idiots who tried to condemn me instead of the murderous band of thugs behind the wall.

But that's just me.

895 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:23:12am

re: #887 drcordell

So, you'd have an example of a successful counter-insurgency for me, if Pakistan was able to secure one of the most mountainous border regions known to man.

That's really the best example you have?

It's a fine example. You said a counter-insurgency is never effective. I am saying that in the absence of such a distinctive geological feature, this example of counter-insurgency would have proven wholly effective.

896 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:23:13am

re: #894 Aceofwhat?

Can't wall off children, though. And can't take children away from their parents en masse.

897 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:23:55am

re: #882 Obdicut

I really hope you are not working your way around to "The majority of palestinians support terrorist attacks because of Israeli actions". The Palestinians should reject terrorism against civilians because it is ethically wrong.

Do I think that terrorism against civilians is morally wrong? Of course. Do I think that the Palestinians are completely wrong in supporting terrorist? Of course.

Do I think that if I were in the same situation as a Palestinian I would be able to see it the same way? I can't say that. If I were a Palestinian and my brother were killed by an IDF helicopter that was attacking a Hamas weapons cache, I don't know what I'd do. I'd love to say that I would renounce violence, and understand that Hamas was ultimately to blame. But honestly I don't know that I would be able to. Again, I'm not saying that it's justified. I'm just saying, people aren't inherently rational when it comes to things like this.

898 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:25:08am

re: #893 _RememberTonyC

try "googling" Hama 1982 ... in fact, I will do it for you ...

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Brilliant. So you can stop a terrorist insurgency by murdering everyone in the entire city. Thank you for clearing that up.

899 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:25:44am

re: #895 Aceofwhat?

It's a fine example. You said a counter-insurgency is never effective. I am saying that in the absence of such a distinctive geological feature, this example of counter-insurgency would have proven wholly effective.

That's a complete hypothetical.

900 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:25:45am

re: #880 drcordell

Hahahahahahahaha. Oh really? Care to provide a single example of a terrorist insurgency being destroyed successfully? I suppose I'll take any example, but one from the latter 20th century or 21st century would be the most applicable.



The Tamil Tigers.
Defeated in 2009 by the Sri Lankan military.

901 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:26:15am

re: #896 Obdicut

Can't wall off children, though. And can't take children away from their parents en masse.

sure, i'm being general. if olive branches don't work and just wiping them off the map is ethically invalid (well...one side feels that way, at least), then what's left is to do your best to protect your own citizens.

902 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:26:27am

re: #898 drcordell

Brilliant. So you can stop a terrorist insurgency by murdering everyone in the entire city. Thank you for clearing that up.

you're such an asshole. you asked for an example and I showed you one. go fuck yourself.

903 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:27:00am

re: #897 drcordell

I'm saying that your views on Israel have been very clear, but you just received new information about the situation. I am really hoping that you adapt to this new information, rather than simply explaining it away. I'm not expecting you to do this on the fly, and I think it wouldn't be that good if you did.

I'm also hoping that you look back over your argument, see how many times you insisted that only a small minority of Palestinians support the violence, and realize that you were making a very faulty argument and that accounts for a lot of the ire directed against you.

904 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:27:23am

re: #898 drcordell

Well, yeah. You asked. You didn't ask if it was ethical or moral.

905 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:27:29am

re: #899 drcordell

That's a complete hypothetical.

it's the alteration of one variable in an existing situation. surely even you can solve an equation with only one variable...

906 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:27:58am

re: #900 lawhawk

I think Thailand has put down a few groups for the count, too.

The Viet Cong were great at eradicating other rival factions, too, but they weren't at all nice about it.

907 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:28:24am

re: #900 lawhawk


The Tamil Tigers.
Defeated in 2009 by the Sri Lankan military.

And go read about how the Tamils were defeated. Entire Tamil civilian populations were slaughtered. An estimated 20,000 civilian casualties.

908 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:29:25am

re: #901 Aceofwhat?

Yep. Which is what the Israelis try to do, inside the very cramped room they have to move. Which is why I think analyzing their actions on the grounds of ethics and not of some supposed path to peace that Israeli is already much farther down is the right thing to do.

909 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:29:35am

re: #907 drcordell

And go read about how the Tamils were defeated. Entire Tamil civilian populations were slaughtered. An estimated 20,000 civilian casualties.

i'd expect you to lay those deaths at the feet of the state, rather than the insurgents.

i don't mean that in a good way.

910 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:29:37am

re: #906 Obdicut

Thailand is still dealing with an insurgency. The Philippines is dealing with the MILF and Abu Sayaaf. Indonesia has an ongoing insurgency. Some factions have been eliminated.

911 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:30:55am

re: #908 Obdicut

Yep. Which is what the Israelis try to do, inside the very cramped room they have to move. Which is why I think analyzing their actions on the grounds of ethics and not of some supposed path to peace that Israeli is already much farther down is the right thing to do.

and blaming them, or putting the majority of the onus on them, is only possible with the sort of tortured logic on display here.

i keep waiting for your advice to sink in. we all get new information sometimes.

oh well.

912 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:31:07am

re: #907 drcordell

And go read about how the Tamils were defeated. Entire Tamil civilian populations were slaughtered. An estimated 20,000 civilian casualties.

And who's fault was that?

913 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:32:12am

re: #907 drcordell

And go read about how the Tamils were defeated. Entire Tamil civilian populations were slaughtered. An estimated 20,000 civilian casualties.

Again, you wanted an example - and you've gotten several and then you disagree with the means used to eliminate the insurgency/terror groups.

The 20,000 casualties were over a span of 30+ years.

In the current conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, we've seen a fraction of the casualties seen in the Sri Lankan victory against the Tamil Tigers.

914 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:33:46am

re: #907 drcordell

Do you realize there were upwards of 50,000 civilian casualties in the US civil war, right?

The Tigers used human shields and child soldiers, if I recall.

Can you like to anything condemning the Sri Lanken government's prosecution of that conflict?

915 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:34:38am

re: #910 lawhawk

Thailand is still dealing with an insurgency. The Philippines is dealing with the MILF and Abu Sayaaf. Indonesia has an ongoing insurgency. Some factions have been eliminated.

A MILF insurgency? I think I've seen that movie, it had a happy ending IIRC.

916 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:47:01am

re: #907 drcordell

Heh. I just remembered that the Tamil Tigers engaged in ethnic cleansing of... Muslims.

917 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:54:03am

re: #916 Obdicut

Heh. I just remembered that the Tamil Tigers engaged in ethnic cleansing of... Muslims.

The whole situation was a clusterfuck. The Sri Lankan government explicitly persecuted the Tamil minority, the Tamil Tigers were terrorist bastards. There's no angels on either side.

918 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:56:20am

re: #917 drcordell

The whole situation was a clusterfuck. The Sri Lankan government explicitly persecuted the Tamil minority, the Tamil Tigers were terrorist bastards. There's no angels on either side.

no, but there was a winner.

919 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:57:00am
920 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:57:30am

re: #911 Aceofwhat?

and blaming them, or putting the majority of the onus on them, is only possible with the sort of tortured logic on display here.

i keep waiting for your advice to sink in. we all get new information sometimes.

oh well.

I appreciate the new information I have learned today. But that doesn't change the fact that violence is not a successful strategy for ending a counter-insurgency. And no, examples where the entire city containing the rebels is massacred do not count as examples of a successful counter-insurgency.

921 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 11:59:33am

re: #920 drcordell

I appreciate the new information I have learned today. But that doesn't change the fact that violence is not a successful strategy for ending a counter-insurgency. And no, examples where the entire city containing the rebels is massacred do not count as examples of a successful counter-insurgency.

au contraire. Violence appears to have been quite successful.

Whether it is preferred is a different question, albeit not the one you asked.

922 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:00:56pm

re: #921 Aceofwhat?

au contraire. Violence appears to have been quite successful.

Whether it is preferred is a different question, albeit not the one you asked.

You understand what I'm saying.

923 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:01:41pm

re: #917 drcordell

As I said, if you can show me something that castigates the Sri Lanken government's prosecution of that, I'd be happy to read it.

My knowledge of the conflict is that it began with Sri Lanken repression of the Tamil minority, but not violently, and that the Tigers were the first to resort to violence.

Furthermore, in an odd symmetry, there was a negotiated ceasefire and a deal for Sri Lanka to grant the Tamils limited autonomy, which was rejected by the Tigers in the form of armed resistance. They continued to reject anything short of outright independence, even after the Sri Lanken government made concessions. They have also assasinated many, many moderate Tamils who opposed them.

I think that the conflict there approaches 'civil war' more than just an insurgency, by the way, not that its an important distinction.

924 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:03:14pm

re: #919 Spare O'Lake

Please accept my apologies.
You are not an asshole.
You are a gaping asshole.

You don't think there's a difference between 100% support of something and 48% support of something?

925 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:04:03pm

re: #924 drcordell

You might want to use the figure from the poll you cited earlier, rather than the lower number given in a different poll.

926 drcordell  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:04:49pm

re: #925 Obdicut

You might want to use the figure from the poll you cited earlier, rather than the lower number given in a different poll.

You're right. 54%.

927 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:10:10pm

re: #922 drcordell

You understand what I'm saying.

i accept your concession

928 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 12:14:04pm

re: #923 Obdicut

Jews, unlike any other people or nation, are not permitted to take the necessary steps to win a decisive and complete military victory. Any other country faced with a similar enemy over an extended time, would long ago have deported the occupants of Gaza and the West Bank to Jordan and Egypt.
This is why Israel cannot win - at least not until they break free of the 100% anti-Semitic double standard.

929 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 9, 2010 4:07:14pm

re: #215 MandyManners

*rolls eyes*

In other words - *is unable to provide a meaningful response*.

Mandy has the strongest 'unable to provide a reasonable response' muscle on LGF!


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