Bali Bomber Now an Ex-Terrorist

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Another big success today in the global war against Islamic terrorism, as Indonesia’s president confirms that another of the leaders of the terror cell that perpetrated the Bali nightclub bombings has been killed in a police raid.

(Reuters) - A leading Southeast Asian militant, wanted for the 2002 Bali bombings, was the man killed in police raids in Jakarta, Indonesia’s President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono said on Wednesday.

“Today I can announce to you that after a successful police raid against the terrorists hiding out in Jakarta yesterday, we can confirm that one of those that was killed was Dulmatin, one of the top Southeast Asian terrorists,” Yudhoyono said in a speech in Australia’s parliament house in Canberra.

Indonesian police shot dead Dulmatin, wanted in the suicide bombings that ripped apart two night clubs in Bali that killed 202 people, and two others in a series of coordinated raids in southern Jakarta on Tuesday.

The raids are a coup in the country’s fight against Islamist radicals ahead of a visit by U.S. President Barack Obama later this month.

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193 comments
1 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:09:04am

*fist pump*

2 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:09:34am

just don’s say first

3 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:09:40am

He’s gone to join the choir invisible.

4 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:10:01am

Fist bump.

5 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:10:48am

Why do bad things happen to bad people?
//

6 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:11:16am

re: #3 wrenchwench

He’s gone to join the choir invisible.

Nah, he’s just pining for the fjords.

7 acwgusa  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:12:02am

So, he’s a dead parrot then?

8 Donna Ballard  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:12:10am

Couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy! I sincerely hope that he’s sitting in a pool of molten lava wondering where he went wrong and his Virgins are all as ugly as can be!

9 HoosierHoops  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:13:35am

Lots of terrorists have been doing the dirt nap lately..
Hope there isn’t a back order of Virgins these days.

10 Soap_Man  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:13:51am

I don’t know about the rest of you, but this War on Terror seems to be going really well lately…

11 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:13:53am

I think I can truthfully say that the only good terrorist is an ex-terrorist.

It’s up to them how they become an ex-terrorist. There’s the easy way, and the, uh, more permanent way.

12 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:14:05am

Doing what any good host does, cleaning up for visitors.

13 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:14:31am

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Nah, he’s just pining for the fjords.

‘Is metabolic processes are now ‘istory!

(I found a transcript. I won’t tell how badly I butchered the first one.)

14 Donna Ballard  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:14:41am

Need to get some house work done, i’ll be back later. Have a great day everyone and Keep Laughing!

15 thedopefishlives  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:14:42am

And may he be blessed by many more of his compatriots coming to visit very soon.

16 acwgusa  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:14:50am

May his 72 virgins look like Helen Thomas.

17 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:15:07am

re: #8 Dragon_Lady

Couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy! I sincerely hope that he’s sitting in a pool of molten lava wondering where he went wrong and his Virgins are all as ugly as can be!

“What do you mean “Choose a pineapple and get in line behind Hitler”?

/obscure movie reference

18 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:15:39am

re: #11 Emmmieg

I think I can truthfully say that the only good terrorist is an ex-terrorist.

It’s up to them how they become an ex-terrorist. There’s the easy way, and the, uh, more permanent way.

Only fly in the ointment is that a lot of suicide bombers share that sentiment: the prospect of being pursued relentlessly does not seem to put them off, either.

19 theliel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:15:49am

nut the sekkrit msulem is just setting us up for the takeover!!!!
And this was done by police! law enforcement causes drastic failures like this! now he’ll never be jacked to giveup all of his contacts!

///

I’ve been hesentantly pleased with progress so far…

20 MrSilverDragon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:16:06am

re: #16 acwgusa

May his 72 virgins look like Helen Danny Thomas.

Minor fix.

21 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:16:07am

re: #16 acwgusa

May his 72 virgins look like Helen Thomas.


No. Not Helen Thomas.

Like this:

Image: Khalid-Sheik-Mohammed-001.jpg

22 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:16:24am

re: #9 HoosierHoops

Lots of terrorists have been doing the dirt nap lately..
Hope there isn’t a back order of Virgins these days.

I always wondered how the virgins feel about that situation.

As a serious note, the fact that sexual enslavement of women is considered heaven by these people tells you everything you need to know about them.

23 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:16:50am

re: #15 thedopefishlives

And may he be blessed by many more of his compatriots coming to visit very soon.

Ahh that is where the virgins are coming from!

24 thedopefishlives  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:17:23am

re: #23 LudwigVanQuixote

Ahh that is where the virgins are coming from!

See, I knew somebody would be catching on. One inexhaustible supply of virgins on slight backorder, coming right up.

25 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:17:34am

re: #13 wrenchwench

‘Is metabolic processes are now ‘istory!

(I found a transcript. I won’t tell how badly I butchered the first one.)

The indonesian terrorist mastermind prefers to keepin’ on its back.

26 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:19:22am

My nephew was at that club two weeks before the murders.

27 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:19:24am

Merry Belated Christmas!

Youtube Video
28 wrenchwench  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:19:31am

From the article:

He fled to the southern Philippines in 2003 and the U.S. government had a $10 million reward for his capture.

Missed opportunity there.

But there’s a bigger payoff to fighting terrorism:

Since the 2002 Bali bombings, Indonesian authorities have captured or killed around 440 militant suspects, with around 250 convicted in courts and three executed by firing squad.

Indonesia’s markets were calm on Wednesday, with the rupiah currency steady and stocks up about 0.5 percent.

Better political stability and security have helped attract more investment in Southeast Asia’s biggest economy, although attacks in areas such as Bali have hit tourism previously.

Indonesia was one of the star emerging markets last year with stocks up 90 percent, government bonds up 20 percent and the rupiah, Asia’s best-performing currency, up 17 percent.

29 The Curmudgeon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:21:15am

Oh dear, this is sooooooooooo insensitive! I do hope they read him his rights. How do they expect to end the cycle of violence if they behave like this? How can our side be respected in the world if we run around killing people who disagree with us?
/Pelosi mode

30 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:21:56am

re: #22 LudwigVanQuixote

I always wondered how the virgins feel about that situation.

As a serious note, the fact that sexual enslavement of women is considered heaven by these people tells you everything you need to know about them.

Them? Do you mean radical Islamic terrorists or you apply that to Islam in general? I ask, because if I remember correctly, residing in heaven after death with all the perks we hear mentioned is available to all the men of Islam if they go to heaven.

31 thedopefishlives  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:22:42am

re: #30 Walter L. Newton

Them? Do you mean radical Islamic terrorists or you apply that to Islam in general? I ask, because if I remember correctly, residing in heaven after death with all the perks we hear mentioned is available to all the men of Islam if they go to heaven.

Actually, I understood it to only apply to those who were martyred for the sake of Islam. But I only ever had a crash course in Islamic studies and never got that deep into it.

32 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:23:29am

re: #31 thedopefishlives

Actually, I understood it to only apply to those who were martyred for the sake of Islam. But I only ever had a crash course in Islamic studies and never got that deep into it.

That’s why I asked. I’m trying to find more information, but I was wondering if Ludwig had the answer.

33 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:23:52am

re: #10 Soap_Man

I don’t know about the rest of you, but this War on Terror seems to be going really well lately…

I’ll second that.
I see several factors in this. Some formerly wobbly allies have started pursuing the terrs in a serious way. Some will credit this to the Obama administration’s diplomatic genius. It is more likely just the recognition that the change of administration, which looks drastic in the rest of the world, has not led to any fundamental change in our goals. That is, the wobblies saw that Obama did not bug out and they decided to get off the fence.

It is also quite possible that some kind of major intelligence breakthrough, one we won’t know about for years, has played a significant role.

34 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:23:57am

re: #30 Walter L. Newton

Them? Do you mean radical Islamic terrorists or you apply that to Islam in general? I ask, because if I remember correctly, residing in heaven after death with all the perks we hear mentioned is available to all the men of Islam if they go to heaven.

Whereas the women just get fucked.

35 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:24:00am

re: #30 Walter L. Newton

Them? Do you mean radical Islamic terrorists or you apply that to Islam in general? I ask, because if I remember correctly, residing in heaven after death with all the perks we hear mentioned is available to all the men of Islam if they go to heaven.

All the men:72 virgins. Has someone done the math on this?

36 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:24:21am

re: #30 Walter L. Newton

Them? Do you mean radical Islamic terrorists or you apply that to Islam in general? I ask, because if I remember correctly, residing in heaven after death with all the perks we hear mentioned is available to all the men of Islam if they go to heaven.

I was just checking the bacground to the bit with 72 virgins:

[Link: www.straightdope.com…]

37 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:24:48am

re: #31 thedopefishlives

Actually, I understood it to only apply to those who were martyred for the sake of Islam. But I only ever had a crash course in Islamic studies and never got that deep into it.

According to Wiki…

“The concept of heaven in Islam differs in many respects to the concept in Judaism and Christianity. Heaven is described primarily in physical terms as a place where every wish is immediately fulfilled. Islamic texts describe immortal life in heaven as happy, without negative emotions. Those who dwell in heaven are said to wear costly apparel, partake in exquisite banquets, and recline on couches inlaid with gold or precious stones. Inhabitants will rejoice in the company of their parents, wives, and children. Texts also refer to “pure consorts” (houris), with whom sexual relations are said to be “a hundred times greater than earthly pleasure”.”

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

38 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:25:10am

re: #30 Walter L. Newton

Them? Do you mean radical Islamic terrorists or you apply that to Islam in general? I ask, because if I remember correctly, residing in heaven after death with all the perks we hear mentioned is available to all the men of Islam if they go to heaven.

You may be correct. I always thought though that the 72 virgins was a special reward for a shahid. Either way, the point is that you have a theology based on the notion of being some sort sexual slave master in the afterlife where a woman’s form is the reward.

It’s the juvenile fantasy of a wannabe Dom IMHO.

39 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:26:40am

re: #34 Cato the Elder

Whereas the women just get fucked.

My point entirely. It’s actually a very strong statement about what these Islamists think the spiritual worth of a woman is. IN a cosmic and ultimate sense, in heaven, she is simply a sex object.

40 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:27:09am

re: #19 theliel

nut the sekkrit msulem is just setting us up for the takeover!!!
And this was done by police! law enforcement causes drastic failures like this! now he’ll never be jacked to giveup all of his contacts!

///

I’ve been hesentantly pleased with progress so far…

It’s a false dichotomy, we’ve always used both law enforcement and military force in the WOT. It takes some doing, but we can walk and chew gum at the same time.

41 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:27:43am

re: #24 thedopefishlives

See, I knew somebody would be catching on. One inexhaustible supply of virgins on slight backorder, coming right up.

Little did I know that during my adolescence I did a fairly good job of “Thinning the herd” so to speak.

Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more, say no more.

42 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:28:14am

re: #38 LudwigVanQuixote

You may be correct. I always thought though that the 72 virgins was a special reward for a shahid. Either way, the point is that you have a theology based on the notion of being some sort sexual slave master in the afterlife where a woman’s form is the reward.

It’s the juvenile fantasy of a wannabe Dom IMHO.

According to that Wiki entry I found, consorts is part of the concept for all men, shahid or not.

Considering this fact, do you still stand by your statement…

“As a serious note, the fact that sexual enslavement of women is considered heaven by these people tells you everything you need to know about them.”

43 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:28:23am

re: #29 The Curmudgeon

Oh dear, this is sooo insensitive! I do hope they read him his rights. How do they expect to end the cycle of violence if they behave like this? How can our side be respected in the world if we run around killing people who disagree with us?
/Pelosi mode

He has the right to remain silent, aaaannd…that’s about it, anymore.

44 thedopefishlives  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:28:27am

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

See, for example:

re: #36 ralphieboy

The above-linked article has a decent translation of the hadith which elaborates that the 72 virgins were allocated to the “least reward in heaven”. So, yes, everybody.

45 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:28:33am

re: #35 Decatur Deb

All the men:72 virgins. Has someone done the math on this?

LOL! A very good point. Given that the Arab world gave us Algebra, this is a particularly sad demonstration of how religion can muddle the ability to think clearly.

46 theliel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:29:40am

re: #40 The Sanity Inspector

It’s a false dichotomy, we’ve always used both law enforcement and military force in the WOT. It takes some doing, but we can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Which is why it was above the // and why bozo up there got a downding.
Miranda rights apply to those taken into custody in the US.
Some sort of rights need to apply to those taken into custody BY the US and then held by us, just because Rule of Law and it’s attendent protections are a cornerstone of our society.

People getting blown the fuck up fighting a police raid…well, they wouldn’t get miranda if they were a bankrobber here in the US so I fail to see how it came up.

Thouth it was nice to see The Rule upheld that you can’t spoof a wingnut, they will always go farther than you.

47 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:29:44am

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

“Texts also refer to “pure consorts” (houris), with whom sexual relations are said to be “a hundred times greater than earthly pleasure”.”

So, Muslim heaven has a “Bow-chick-a-bow-wow” soundtrack.

48 HoosierHoops  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:30:10am

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

According to Wiki…

“The concept of heaven in Islam differs in many respects to the concept in Judaism and Christianity. Heaven is described primarily in physical terms as a place where every wish is immediately fulfilled. Islamic texts describe immortal life in heaven as happy, without negative emotions. Those who dwell in heaven are said to wear costly apparel, partake in exquisite banquets, and recline on couches inlaid with gold or precious stones. Inhabitants will rejoice in the company of their parents, wives, and children. Texts also refer to “pure consorts” (houris), with whom sexual relations are said to be “a hundred times greater than earthly pleasure”.”

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

That sounds awesome!
Anybody have a spare suicide belt I can borrow?
*wink*

49 Kragar (Antichrist )  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:30:34am

re: #41 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Little did I know that during my adolescence I did a fairly good job of “Thinning the herd” so to speak.

Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more, say no more.

You interested in … photographs, eh? Know what I mean? Photographs, ‘he asked him knowingly’.

50 avanti  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:30:57am

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

According to Wiki…

“The concept of heaven in Islam differs in many respects to the concept in Judaism and Christianity. Heaven is described primarily in physical terms as a place where every wish is immediately fulfilled. Islamic texts describe immortal life in heaven as happy, without negative emotions. Those who dwell in heaven are said to wear costly apparel, partake in exquisite banquets, and recline on couches inlaid with gold or precious stones. Inhabitants will rejoice in the company of their parents, wives, and children. Texts also refer to “pure consorts” (houris), with whom sexual relations are said to be “a hundred times greater than earthly pleasure”.”

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

I’ve never understood the concept of “where every wish is immediately fulfilled” , that sounds boring without any effort or contrast. If there are no lows, how can you appreciate the highs ? If everyone has gold, then gold has little value, and so on.

51 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:31:00am

re: #48 HoosierHoops

That sounds awesome!
Anybody have a spare suicide belt I can borrow?
*wink*

I really don’t find the humor in that.

52 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:31:42am

re: #45 LudwigVanQuixote

LOL! A very good point. Given that the Arab world gave us Algebra, this is a particularly sad demonstration of how religion can muddle the ability to think clearly.

If you reach back into the Age of Enlightenment England and pluck someone at random, you’d be unlikely to fish out a Newton, a Bentham, a Harvey, and so forth. It’d be just some ordinary Englishman, as subject to the mores and attitudes of his times as his fellows. So it probably was with the Arab Golden Age.

53 HoosierHoops  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:32:42am

re: #51 Walter L. Newton

I really don’t find the humor in that.

I’ll call my writing staff.. Heads will roll over this..

54 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:32:51am

re: #44 thedopefishlives

Though moderate Muslims do not in any way take that literally, as it also says in the article.

55 theliel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:32:57am

re: #50 avanti

I’ve never understood the concept of “where every wish is immediately fulfilled” , that sounds boring without any effort or contrast. If there are no lows, how can you appreciate the highs ? If everyone has gold, then gold has little value, and so on.

I immediatly was thinking of “I know right now that the Machine is just telling my brain that this steak is jucy and delicious…”

56 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:32:59am

re: #42 Walter L. Newton

According to that Wiki entry I found, consorts is part of the concept for all men, shahid or not.

Considering this fact, do you still stand by your statement…

“As a serious note, the fact that sexual enslavement of women is considered heaven by these people tells you everything you need to know about them.”

Walter, what semantic game are you playing at? I am sure I don’t really care. The point of my post is that women are regarded in a cosmic sense as nothing but sex objects. If All Muslims get sex slaves, then it makes my argument only stronger since you have to do even less to get your sex slaves in heaven.

And yes, any religion that considers consigning half the species to object status in such a clear way makes a very poor case for itself very strongly.

Now I don’t know about your Wiki entry and I am sure it is not the sum total of knowledge of the many and different sects and views within Islam that surely have a different take on this point.

I am absolutely certain that much is made about the reward for a Shahid, and that is sufficient for my argument.

57 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:33:51am

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

According to Wiki…

“The concept of heaven in Islam differs in many respects to the concept in Judaism and Christianity. Heaven is described primarily in physical terms as a place where every wish is immediately fulfilled. Islamic texts describe immortal life in heaven as happy, without negative emotions. Those who dwell in heaven are said to wear costly apparel, partake in exquisite banquets, and recline on couches inlaid with gold or precious stones. Inhabitants will rejoice in the company of their parents, wives, and children. Texts also refer to “pure consorts” (houris), with whom sexual relations are said to be “a hundred times greater than earthly pleasure”.”

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

I read somewhere that some Middle Ages Muslim sages said that the orgasms enjoyed in paradise by fallen jihadis would last a thousand years each. Later divines mercifully shortened this to twenty-four years.

58 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:34:05am

re: #56 LudwigVanQuixote

What, exactly, do Muslim women get in heaven?

Being an eternal prop is not my idea of fun.

59 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:34:29am

re: #57 The Sanity Inspector

I read somewhere that some Middle Ages Muslim sages said that the orgasms enjoyed in paradise by fallen jihadis would last a thousand years each. Later divines mercifully shortened this to twenty-four years.

Mark Twain had a similar take on heaven, actually.

60 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:34:54am

re: #50 avanti

I’ve never understood the concept of “where every wish is immediately fulfilled” , that sounds boring without any effort or contrast. If there are no lows, how can you appreciate the highs ? If everyone has gold, then gold has little value, and so on.

Actually Rambam made a similar critique of that point in Guide for the Perplexed.

61 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:35:29am

re: #52 The Sanity Inspector

If you reach back into the Age of Enlightenment England and pluck someone at random, you’d be unlikely to fish out a Newton, a Bentham, a Harvey, and so forth. It’d be just some ordinary Englishman, as subject to the mores and attitudes of his times as his fellows. So it probably was with the Arab Golden Age.

heh ,,, how come when people talk about being re-incarnated, they were always nobility in theor past life. It’s never “yeah,, I was Gabe, the stable boy. My job was to wipe the masters horses ass if either of them had the runs”
Or,, “yeah ,, I was Orloff. I was the wretch on the streetcorner living in the gutter who threw up on myself for a living!”

62 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:35:30am

re: #58 Emmmieg

Here’s one answer:

[Link: www.islamonline.net…]

63 Jadespring  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:36:05am

re: #57 The Sanity Inspector

I read somewhere that some Middle Ages Muslim sages said that the orgasms enjoyed in paradise by fallen jihadis would last a thousand years each. Later divines mercifully shortened this to twenty-four years.

1000 years? Wow. As much as I appreciate orgasms and all that sounds like it would be really exhausting.

64 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:36:30am

re: #61 sattv4u2

heh ,,, how come when people talk about being re-incarnated, they were always nobility in theor past life. It’s never “yeah,, I was Gabe, the stable boy. My job was to wipe the masters horses ass if either of them had the runs”
Or,, “yeah ,, I was Orloff. I was the wretch on the streetcorner living in the gutter who threw up on myself for a living!”

It’s because the low-lifes get screwed on THAT one, too. Sorta the reverse of the punishment for being a samurai, which is to be reincarnated as one.

65 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:36:33am

re: #56 LudwigVanQuixote

Walter, what semantic game are you playing at? I am sure I don’t really care.

umm,, then why ask !?!?!

66 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:36:44am

If these are houris, there is an escape clause. By description houris aren’t human women—more like highly ethereal replicants.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

67 avanti  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:37:27am

re: #60 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually Rambam made a similar critique of that point in Guide for the Perplexed.

For me, heaven would be another ride on the carousel of life, with all the good and bad.

68 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:37:40am

re: #66 Decatur Deb

If these are houris, there is an escape clause. By description houris aren’t human women—more like highly ethereal replicants.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

Nexus-7 or higher?

69 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:37:41am

re: #63 Jadespring

1000 years? Wow. As much as I appreciate orgasms and all that sounds like it would be really exhausting.

You should notify your physican after the first 4 hours.

70 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:38:07am

re: #61 sattv4u2

It’s one thing I like about Patton: even though he imagined himself a brave solider in past lives, he didn’t imagine himself as the generals, and he ‘remembered’ dying horribly.

Bradley, of course, put it about that Patton thought he was the reincarnation of Hannibal.

Bradley was such a jealous jerk.

71 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:38:33am

re: #69 Decatur Deb

Damn!

beat me to it.

72 Jadespring  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:38:39am

re: #61 sattv4u2

heh ,,, how come when people talk about being re-incarnated, they were always nobility in theor past life. It’s never “yeah,, I was Gabe, the stable boy. My job was to wipe the masters horses ass if either of them had the runs”
Or,, “yeah ,, I was Orloff. I was the wretch on the streetcorner living in the gutter who threw up on myself for a living!”

I had one of those readings done once at psychic fair.(not that I believe it) No nobility here. I was a blacksmith type in old roman times, a young girl that died in childbirth in some hut/shack and some sort of nun type.

73 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:38:41am

re: #58 Emmmieg

What, exactly, do Muslim women get in heaven?

Being an eternal prop is not my idea of fun.

Ohh but if you were a properly devout woman who knew her place, then you would be thrilled for the privilege to serve your male betters!

Honestly, I really don’t know. I know that some Islamic sects hold that a woman does not even have a soul like a mans. But, I am honestly not a scholar of Islamic thought and I do not know how wide spread such an attitude is in the Islamic world.

From what I do know though, the religion is more than a little down on the notion of a woman’s worth in comparison to a man’s. One look at the lot of women in an Islamist state will quickly show that is the case.

74 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:38:54am

The stalkers are pretty much taking over Richard Metzger’s thread. If any LGF readers would care to post something to counter this barrage of ugliness, I’d be very appreciative.

[Link: www.dangerousminds.net…]

75 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:38:59am

re: #56 LudwigVanQuixote

Walter, what semantic game are you playing at? I am sure I don’t really care. The point of my post is that women are regarded in a cosmic sense as nothing but sex objects. If All Muslims get sex slaves, then it makes my argument only stronger since you have to do even less to get your sex slaves in heaven.

And yes, any religion that considers consigning half the species to object status in such a clear way makes a very poor case for itself very strongly.

Now I don’t know about your Wiki entry and I am sure it is not the sum total of knowledge of the many and different sects and views within Islam that surely have a different take on this point.

I am absolutely certain that much is made about the reward for a Shahid, and that is sufficient for my argument.

I’m not playing any games. I just don’t like to condemn a WHOLE religion because of a single doctrine or the actions of a small percentage of the adherents. I don’t do that for any religion.

And I am just asking you if you actually meant what you said. If you did, fine.

76 iceweasel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:39:32am

Google cache of JihadJane’s myspace page. (scroll down).

Status: im so bored, i want to scream!!Mood: blessed blessedPosted at 4:49 PM Jun 25, 2009

77 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:39:35am

re: #73 LudwigVanQuixote

I just posted a response from a moderate Islamic point of view.

How common that moderate view is another discussion entirely.

78 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:39:36am

re: #58 Emmmieg

What, exactly, do Muslim women get in heaven?

Being an eternal prop is not my idea of fun.

OK this is a raunchy point, but it did occur to me…

Once you use your virgin, does she ummm “repair” or do you get a new one?

79 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:39:56am

re: #73 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohh but if you were a properly devout woman who knew her place, then you would be thrilled for the privilege to serve your male betters!

Honestly, I really don’t know. I know that some Islamic sects hold that a woman does not even have a soul like a mans. But, I am honestly not a scholar of Islamic thought and I do not know how wide spread such an attitude is in the Islamic world.

From what I do know though, the religion is more than a little down on the notion of a woman’s worth in comparison to a man’s. One look at the lot of women in an Islamist state will quickly show that is the case.

See above. I get to lie around in the shade and eat snacks while my husband is off with his virgins.

80 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:40:22am

re: #75 Walter L. Newton

I’m not playing any games. I just don’t like to condemn a WHOLE religion because of a single doctrine or the actions of a small percentage of the adherents. I don’t do that for any religion.

And I am just asking you if you actually meant what you said. If you did, fine.

Ohhh I see, you are concerned….

NEvermind Walter, I really don’t feel like playing with you today.

81 thedopefishlives  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:40:24am

re: #78 LudwigVanQuixote

OK this is a raunchy point, but it did occur to me…

Once you use your virgin, does she ummm “repair” or do you get a new one?

According to the hadith, she is “eternally a virgin”. So, you get the same girl, but with her virginity always intact. If you’re into that sort of thing.

82 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:40:59am

re: #74 Charles

On it.

83 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:41:30am

re: #81 thedopefishlives

Yeah. But does she have a memory. Does she get any better at it the second time?

Virgin’s ain’t generally gymnasts… if’n you catch my drift…

84 theliel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:42:18am

re: #78 LudwigVanQuixote

OK this is a raunchy point, but it did occur to me…

Once you use your virgin, does she ummm “repair” or do you get a new one?

They’re not really ‘women’, they’re basically etherial ‘meatboxes’. And they’re not even Messengers, just, y’know, little gobs of happyness that make your soul think it’s having a wonderful time.
(I don’t know how canonical this is, but I’ve heard Messengers in Islam can’t be female, so there yha go)
So you’re basically a japanese teenager forever….

(I kid…but only a little.)

85 sattv4u2  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:43:06am

re: #83 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yeah. But does she have a memory. Does she get any better at it the second time?

Virgin’s ain’t generally gymnasts… if’n you catch my drift…

I dated one (virgin) that was (a gymnist) once

After that, she wasn’t (-) anymore and I never became one (-) !!

86 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:43:06am

I’m in awe of the Indonesian president’s middle name.

Bambang!

Take that, Achmed.

87 Political Atheist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:43:33am

Anyone else see the pic of Jihad Jane? Ugly bitch.

88 Stanley Sea  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:44:25am

re: #76 iceweasel

Google cache of JihadJane’s myspace page. (scroll down).

Her “friends” are not having a good week I would suppose.

89 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:45:44am

re: #86 Cato the Elder

Shit! That’s better than Wolf Blitzer!

“Yeah. Like he didn’t make that name up for the gulf war.”
-Wayne Campbell

90 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:45:54am

re: #80 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohhh I see, you are concerned…

NEvermind Walter, I really don’t feel like playing with you today.

Yes I am concerned. And as an atheist, who has a VERY good record on LGF of not irrationally condemning the practices of other religions, or believers belief in general, and being rather respectful of all religions, then, making a statement like “Ohhh I see, you are concerned…” put the proof on you to prove I am not concerned.

Yes… I am concerned that a comment like “As a serious note, the fact that sexual enslavement of women is considered heaven by these people tells you everything you need to know about them.” is wrong in it’s simplistic context.

91 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:46:59am

re: #74 Charles

Done.

92 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:47:56am

re: #82 LudwigVanQuixote

On it.

There is an awful lot of very unfair slander of Charles Johnson for doing nothing more than honestly and decently taking the time to research facts and have a real moral compass.

Mr. Johnson was once the darling of the rightwing. It could be argued that he was nearly the totality of the right wing blogosphere. I imagine that if he were a dishonest sort, he could have easily profited greatly from that position. If Malkin can be on Fox, CJ certainly could have.

Yet, Mr. Johnson is too honest and too educated to go against principles or pretend that inconvenient facts do not exist. He is a mensch who thinks for himself.

The price of claiming that evolution did not happen or that AGW isn’t real, or becoming hysterical over one false and baseless outrage after another - like death panels or birth certificates was something he was too smart, too decent and too honest to do.

93 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:48:51am

re: #90 Walter L. Newton

Yes I am concerned. And as an atheist, who has a VERY good record on LGF of not irrationally condemning the practices of other religions, or believers belief in general, and being rather respectful of all religions, then, making a statement like “Ohhh I see, you are concerned…” put the proof on you to prove I am not concerned.

Yes… I am concerned that a comment like “As a serious note, the fact that sexual enslavement of women is considered heaven by these people tells you everything you need to know about them.” is wrong in it’s simplistic context.

And just to deflect any silly come backs… no, I don’t support the kind of treatment of woman that we see inherent in Islamic theology. But, that theology does not tell me everything I need to know about THEM.

I know a good number of Muslims who do not practice that aspect of their theology. No different than Catholic who use birth control. No religious theology is inclusively practiced by every member.

94 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:49:19am

re: #76 iceweasel

Google cache of JihadJane’s myspace page. (scroll down).

A jihad-myspace page. That’s kind of funny in a twisted sort of way.

95 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:49:58am

re: #90 Walter L. Newton

Did it occur to you that you are the one arguing that Islam says this reward goes to all Muslims and that your statement is more general than mine?

96 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:50:29am

re: #87 Rightwingconspirator

Here’s a mug shot. A boyfriend didn’t think anything was amiss until she up and left one day without any warning.

97 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:50:41am

re: #95 LudwigVanQuixote

Did it occur to you that you are the one arguing that Islam says this reward goes to all Muslims and that your statement is more general than mine?

re: #93 Walter L. Newton

98 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:50:55am

re: #93 Walter L. Newton

And just to deflect any silly come backs… no, I don’t support the kind of treatment of woman that we see inherent in Islamic theology. But, that theology does not tell me everything I need to know about THEM.

I know a good number of Muslims who do not practice that aspect of their theology. No different than Catholic who use birth control. No religious theology is inclusively practiced by every member.

Which is why I was talking about the jihadis exclusively and yet you had to come in and claim this applied to all Muslims. You are being even more inconsitent than usual today Walter.

99 Red Pencil  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:51:22am
Bali Bomber Now an Ex-Terrorist

I think that should be Late Terrorist. It seems to me the phrase “Ex-Terrorist” should only refer to a former terrorist who is still alive but has changed their terrorist status.

Kind of like the difference between an “ex wife” and a “late wife”…

100 Spider Mensch  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:52:18am

re: #92 LudwigVanQuixote

There is an awful lot of very unfair slander of Charles Johnson for doing nothing more than honestly and decently taking the time to research facts and have a real moral compass.

Mr. Johnson was once the darling of the rightwing. It could be argued that he was nearly the totality of the right wing blogosphere. I imagine that if he were a dishonest sort, he could have easily profited greatly from that position. If Malkin can be on Fox, CJ certainly could have.

Yet, Mr. Johnson is too honest and too educated to go against principles or pretend that inconvenient facts do not exist. He is a mensch who thinks for himself.

The price of claiming that evolution did not happen or that AGW isn’t real, or becoming hysterical over one false and baseless outrage after another - like death panels or birth certificates was something he was too smart, too decent and too honest to do.

your lipstick smeared… ;)

/it was a joke…c’mon people..)))) I agree with the good professor of course!

101 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:52:40am

re: #90 Walter L. Newton

Yes I am concerned. And as an atheist, who has a VERY good record on LGF of not irrationally condemning the practices of other religions, or believers belief in general, and being rather respectful of all religions, then, making a statement like “Ohhh I see, you are concerned…” put the proof on you to prove I am not concerned.

Yes… I am concerned that a comment like “As a serious note, the fact that sexual enslavement of women is considered heaven by these people tells you everything you need to know about them.” is wrong in it’s simplistic context.

Time to get back on my hobbyhorse:

There are followers of most any religion who are at best only culturally associated with it, they do not take it literally, and they see it primarily as their source of identity and as the basis of their moral and legal code.

There are followers who take things a bit more seriously, observe the religious tenets privately, but do not see a need to impose them on others.

Then there are those take things literally and seek to impose those views on others, by force if necessary.

The people who believe that murderers will be rewarded with virgins in heaven belong to the latter group. I cannot cite any hard-and-fast figures on what percentage they make up, save that they are the most high-profile of the lot.

102 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:53:05am

re: #94 RogueOne

A jihad-myspace page. That’s kind of funny in a twisted sort of way.

There are jihadist YouTube channels, too. A fairly well known anti-jihad website regularly siccs its commenters onto them, gets them flagged, and frequently taken down.

103 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:54:14am

re: #98 LudwigVanQuixote

Which is why I was talking about the jihadis exclusively and yet you had to come in and claim this applied to all Muslims. You are being even more inconsitent than usual today Walter.

I already asked you up thread if you were referring to terrorist or Muslims men in general, you never clarified…

re: #30 Walter L. Newton

Them? Do you mean radical Islamic terrorists or you apply that to Islam in general? I ask, because if I remember correctly, residing in heaven after death with all the perks we hear mentioned is available to all the men of Islam if they go to heaven.

104 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:54:45am

re: #100 Spider Mensch

your lipstick smeared… ;)

/it was a joke…c’mon people..))) I agree with the good professor of course!

Actually, I am a rather irascible sort who never pulls punches. One thing that is certain about me, is that if you are gaining my praise, I mean it.

CJ really did take a number of moral stands when there was certainly every incentive to not do so.

That puts him in my mensch book without reservation and very few are in that book.

105 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:55:33am

re: #103 Walter L. Newton

Actually I did Walter, if you were so concerned, you could look upthread before going on the attack. You really are an insipid windbag.

106 SixDegrees  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:57:06am

re: #101 ralphieboy

Time to get back on my hobbyhorse:

There are followers of most any religion who are at best only culturally associated with it, they do not take it literally, and they see it primarily as their source of identity and as the basis of their moral and legal code.

There are followers who take things a bit more seriously, observe the religious tenets privately, but do not see a need to impose them on others.

Then there are those take things literally and seek to impose those views on others, by force if necessary.

The people who believe that murderers will be rewarded with virgins in heaven belong to the latter group. I cannot cite any hard-and-fast figures on what percentage they make up, save that they are the most high-profile of the lot.

You left out probably the largest group: those who pay their religion lip service, but who follow few of it’s precepts. What are known derisively among Christians as “C & E Christians,” who show up for services on Christmas and Easter and never at any other time.

I also don’t know any percentages, but you’re last ranking is almost certainly the smallest, probably by a large margin.

107 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:57:12am

re: #105 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually I did Walter, if you were so concerned, you could look upthread before going on the attack. You really are an insipid windbag.

Got me shaking in my boots now… always comes down to personal insults. Enjoy…

108 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:57:14am

Attention K-mart shoppers! Blue-light Special on folding chairs

109 Spider Mensch  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:57:52am

re: #104 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually, I am a rather irascible sort who never pulls punches. One thing that is certain about me, is that if you are gaining my praise, I mean it.

CJ really did take a number of moral stands when there was certainly every incentive to not do so.

That puts him in my mensch book without reservation and very few are in that book.


I quite concurr, professor!

110 Political Atheist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 10:58:30am

re: #74 Charles

Done as RCRWC

111 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:00:31am

re: #96 lawhawk

I apologize in advance.

White chick? Didn’t see that coming.

Racist of me. Sorry.

112 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:01:35am

re: #96 lawhawk

Here’s a mug shot. A boyfriend didn’t think anything was amiss until she up and left one day without any warning.

Off to obey the holy injunction to “make wide slaughter” among the infidels.

There is no risk in mocking politicians, now matter how intensively the abuse is served. There is no risk in mocking any establishments of American or Western culture- no harm will ensue. … Every artist alive today now knows the limits: you can do this, which is as brave as taunting a stuffed teddy bear, or you can do that, which amounts to taunting a very hungry very uncaged bear.

Bravery, to an artist, is now an all or nothing thing. Leave the repressive regimes alone, and all your efforts, no matter how avante garde, provocative, or just plain offensive your work is, and you are just pretending at courage. Cross the line and say something about Islam, and your life is on the line. […]

Even Margaret Cho knows she can curse Bush all she wants, but she’d better keep her mouth shut about you-know-who if she doesn’t want to bleed to death in the street. Speaking Truth to Power is only a heroic act if Power chooses to make an issue of it.

113 Sol Berdinowitz  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:04:33am

re: #106 SixDegrees

You left out probably the largest group: those who pay their religion lip service, but who follow few of it’s precepts. What are known derisively among Christians as “C & E Christians,” who show up for services on Christmas and Easter and never at any other time.

I also don’t know any percentages, but you’re last ranking is almost certainly the smallest, probably by a large margin.

I’m not even C&E, but I still identify myself with Christianity, just because I was brought up as a Christian in a predominantly Christian culture. And it does form the basis of my cultural identity and most of my moral precepts, even if I do not accept all of the precepts put forth in Christian doctrine.

114 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:08:11am

re: #96 lawhawk

Here’s a mug shot. A boyfriend didn’t think anything was amiss until she up and left one day without any warning.

“GUILTY!”
(That face would scare a bulldog off a meat truck…make a freight train take a dirt road…..)

115 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:08:20am

re: #106 SixDegrees

You left out probably the largest group: those who pay their religion lip service, but who follow few of it’s precepts. What are known derisively among Christians as “C & E Christians,” who show up for services on Christmas and Easter and never at any other time.

I also don’t know any percentages, but you’re last ranking is almost certainly the smallest, probably by a large margin.

Say that “only” one percent of Muslims worldwide are jihadists. What’s one percent of 900 million? That’s still quite a lot of trouble to have to contend with.

116 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:09:14am

re: #114 Shiplord Kirel

“GUILTY!”
(That face would scare a bulldog off a meat truck…make a freight train take a dirt road…)

…knock a buzzard off of skunk roadkill…

117 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:10:17am

re: #112 The Sanity Inspector

Off to obey the holy injunction to “make wide slaughter” among the infidels.

There is no risk in mocking politicians, now matter how intensively the abuse is served. There is no risk in mocking any establishments of American or Western culture- no harm will ensue. … Every artist alive today now knows the limits: you can do this, which is as brave as taunting a stuffed teddy bear, or you can do that, which amounts to taunting a very hungry very uncaged bear.

Bravery, to an artist, is now an all or nothing thing. Leave the repressive regimes alone, and all your efforts, no matter how avante garde, provocative, or just plain offensive your work is, and you are just pretending at courage. Cross the line and say something about Islam, and your life is on the line. […]

Even Margaret Cho knows she can curse Bush all she wants, but she’d better keep her mouth shut about you-know-who if she doesn’t want to bleed to death in the street. Speaking Truth to Power is only a heroic act if Power chooses to make an issue of it.

This is a wonderful post. The silence of righteous feminists on the lot of Muslim women has always been deafening and proven that the American feminist movement cares less about women’s rights then whining about their own slights, real or imagined.

Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing wrong with feminism. I have great issues with faux feminists who lack the courage of their convictions.

118 SixDegrees  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:10:46am

re: #113 ralphieboy

I’m not even C&E, but I still identify myself with Christianity, just because I was brought up as a Christian in a predominantly Christian culture. And it does form the basis of my cultural identity and most of my moral precepts, even if I do not accept all of the precepts put forth in Christian doctrine.

OK, maybe I just wasn’t clear on how you were classifying things.

119 SixDegrees  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:13:09am

re: #115 The Sanity Inspector

Say that “only” one percent of Muslims worldwide are jihadists. What’s one percent of 900 million? That’s still quite a lot of trouble to have to contend with.

I’m not sure that has anything to do with the topic under discussion. But a figure of 1% is a hundred times better than a figure of 100%.

120 Jadespring  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:13:12am

re: #117 LudwigVanQuixote

Duuude. Wowza. So NOT reality.

121 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:13:44am

OT:

Update on the Pennsylvania kid beaten in a driveway by the police because he had a 2-liter mt. dew bottle in his coat.

After the judge threw out the charges the FOP flipped out and now the PD is talking about coming down with the “blue flu”. What a bunch of bastards.

[Link: kdka.com…]

A top official with the Pittsburgh Police department has written a letter to address talk of a so-called “blue flu.”

He says some officers were contemplating a work slow down in response to charges being dropped against Jordan Miles.

Miles is the CAPA High School student who says he was beaten by three police officers during his arrest in January.

Original beating story:
[Link: kdka.com…]

check out some of the video with the stories. They beat this kid to a pulp including ripping the hair off half his scalp. BTW, last I heard the 3 cops were on paid leave.

122 SixDegrees  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:15:33am

re: #121 RogueOne

OT:

Update on the Pennsylvania kid beaten in a driveway by the police because he had a 2-liter mt. dew bottle in his coat.

After the judge threw out the charges the FOP flipped out and now the PD is talking about coming down with the “blue flu”. What a bunch of bastards.

[Link: kdka.com…]

Original beating story:
[Link: kdka.com…]

check out some of the video with the stories. They beat this kid to a pulp including ripping the hair off half his scalp. BTW, last I heard the 3 cops were on paid leave.

Sounds like any competent attorney has a large payday waiting for him. I’m surprised the ACLU hasn’t stepped up and offered legal assistance in a case like this.

123 iceweasel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:15:51am

re: #120 Jadespring

Duuude. Wowza. So NOT reality.

Agreed. The first places I heard about the Taliban, for example, were in the 80’s— from feminists.

124 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:16:34am

re: #117 LudwigVanQuixote

Feminist organizations have been criticizing the ME regimes for years, so I’m unclear on what you mean.

125 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:17:24am

re: #123 iceweasel

Agreed. The first places I heard about the Taliban, for example, were in the 80’s— from feminists.

Taliban in the ‘80’s? They’d have been psychics, then, as Taliban weren’t even in existence till the mid to late ‘90’s

126 Ericus58  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:17:31am

re: #45 LudwigVanQuixote

LOL! A very good point. Given that the Arab world gave us Algebra, this is a particularly sad demonstration of how religion can muddle the ability to think clearly.

Possibly here first?
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

127 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:18:40am

re: #122 SixDegrees

Sounds like any competent attorney has a large payday waiting for him. I’m surprised the ACLU hasn’t stepped up and offered legal assistance in a case like this.

While a large settlement would be nice to get peoples attention, I’d rather see these 3 animals get jail time for both the beating and the false arrest.

128 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:20:22am

re: #120 Jadespring

Duuude. Wowza. So NOT reality.

Really, women living in Islamist regimes suffer inequalities that would even make the standards of 16th century England look liberal.

This is pretty well established.

Yet, I have never ever heard a major denunciation of this from a prominent American feminist in a public way.

Even if one case can be found, there should rightly be a sustained chorus of outrage. Where is this chorus?

Are Arab women no longer women?

OR is it only American women that count?

Is it that the meme on the far left was pro Islam as a knee jerk reaction to the rightwing co-opting support of Israel?

I don’t know. I really don’t know why.

I do know that if you care about women’s rights, then you should be consistently appalled at the lot of Muslim women. I also know that the large organizations that supposedly claim to stand for women’s rights are very quiet about the issue.

129 RogueOne  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:20:31am

re: #127 RogueOne

Oh, and someone needs to take the deputy police chiefs donut privileges away before he blows his pants out.

130 Jadespring  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:21:39am

re: #123 iceweasel

Agreed. The first places I heard about the Taliban, for example, were in the 80’s— from feminists.

Yeah no kidding. I remember it being talked about when barely anyone else was talking about it 15 years ago. Heck it was a whole section of study in a womans history class I took and that was close to twenty years ago. I’m just going to have to chalk that comment up to just simply being ignorant about the depth of the US and NA (for that matter) feminist movement. Still, wow. The comment just more surprised me more then anything.

131 iceweasel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:23:16am

re: #130 Jadespring

Yeah no kidding. I remember it being talked about when barely anyone else was talking about it 15 years ago. Heck it was a whole section of study in a womans history class I took and that was close to twenty years ago. I’m just going to have to chalk that comment up to just simply being ignorant about the depth of the US and NA (for that matter) feminist movement. Still, wow. The comment just more surprised me more then anything.

Exactly.

132 Jadespring  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:23:31am

re: #125 Guanxi88

Taliban in the ‘80’s? They’d have been psychics, then, as Taliban weren’t even in existence till the mid to late ‘90’s

The Taliban just didn’t pop into existence out of nothing they had precursers. So maybe not the Taliban by exact name but this sort of thing has been covered for ages.

133 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:24:20am

re: #123 iceweasel

re: #124 Obdicut

I absolutely agree that individual feminists have said a great deal about this on the small scale.

But here is my issue.

If say you care about say Jewish issues, you tend to be vocal about Jewish issues and Jewish organizations from the national down to the local level tend to speak up. This is true about Black issue and Black organizations or Mexican ones or Gay ones as well.

Yet, The National Women’s organizations say nothing much at all about Islam. I am sorry, they have morally bankrupted themselves from their silence.

134 iceweasel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:24:38am

re: #132 Jadespring

The Taliban just didn’t pop into existence out of nothing they had precursers. So maybe not the Taliban by exact name but this sort of thing has been covered for ages.

Yeah, exactly. Various stories about the conditions of women in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

135 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:25:07am

re: #132 Jadespring

The Taliban just didn’t pop into existence out of nothing they had precursers. So maybe not the Taliban by exact name but this sort of thing has been covered for ages.

And yet, no one, so far as I can tell, ever proposed going and raising THERE half the stink that is raised here over minor and petty matters.

Let a woman be stoned for some perceived offence in the ‘Ummah - sad head-shakes, and the use of the event as a rhetorical club in domestic power-struggles in the States is about all that will come of it.

136 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:25:15am

re: #128 LudwigVanQuixote

Really, women living in Islamist regimes suffer inequalities that would even make the standards of 16th century England look liberal.

This is pretty well established.

Yet, I have never ever heard a major denunciation of this from a prominent American feminist in a public way.

Even if one case can be found, there should rightly be a sustained chorus of outrage. Where is this chorus?

Are Arab women no longer women?

OR is it only American women that count?

Is it that the meme on the far left was pro Islam as a knee jerk reaction to the rightwing co-opting support of Israel?

I don’t know. I really don’t know why.

I do know that if you care about women’s rights, then you should be consistently appalled at the lot of Muslim women. I also know that the large organizations that supposedly claim to stand for women’s rights are very quiet about the issue.

I have no clue what you’re talking about. I recall feminists being the ones making the most noise about the Middle East before the increase of terrorism.

Here’s a good post on it:
[Link: blinkandyoullmissit.typepad.com…]

And here is an article about how feminism, although it attacks Islam aggressively, has trouble getting that message across.

[Link: www.theage.com.au…]

137 iceweasel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:25:22am

re: #133 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #124 Obdicut

Yet, The National Women’s organizations say nothing much at all about Islam. I am sorry, they have morally bankrupted themselves from their silence.

That simply isn’t true.

138 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:26:08am

re: #131 iceweasel

Exactly.

Ice you know I love you, but seriously, where is the loud public chorus that the national women’s organizations should be making? If I somehow missed it, please point me to it and I will feel better.

139 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:26:19am

re: #133 LudwigVanQuixote

And I’m sorry, but I do not think you actually know this issue very well. Which national organization do you feel hasn’t spoken out against the subjugation of women under radical Islam?

140 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:27:13am

re: #138 LudwigVanQuixote

Okay, here’s NOW speaking out against Sharia law.

[Link: www.now.org…]

141 iceweasel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:27:22am

re: #138 LudwigVanQuixote

Ice you know I love you, but seriously, where is the loud public chorus that the national women’s organizations should be making? If I somehow missed it, please point me to it and I will feel better.

Obdi’s given you some links. Believe me, it’s been on the radar since at least the 80’s.

142 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:27:37am

re: #133 LudwigVanQuixote

Well, just so you can say you’ve seen it, here’s The Nation’s Katha Pollitt, deploring oppression of women in Muslim lands, in the course of a roundup on how women fare worldwide. Weak beer, you may argue, compared to what could be said. But, there it is.

143 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:28:16am

re: #140 Obdicut

Okay, here’s NOW speaking out against Sharia law.

[Link: www.now.org…]

All right - they printed a post about it. Any sorta action they have in mind? Any protests at Nigerian consulates, any interminable litigation over the matter?

144 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:28:31am

re: #139 Obdicut

And I’m sorry, but I do not think you actually know this issue very well. Which national organization do you feel hasn’t spoken out against the subjugation of women under radical Islam?

OK fair enough. If I am wrong, this is one place where I will be happy to be wrong.

Show me that womens groups have made the loud protests about this issue that they did over say the bill for equal pay in the eighties, and I will be happily proven wrong and thrilled to be wrong.

145 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:29:03am

re: #143 Guanxi88

Yes, if you continually raise the bar, nobody will ever reach that bar.

146 iceweasel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:29:35am

re: #143 Guanxi88

All right - they printed a post about it. Any sorta action they have in mind? Any protests at Nigerian consulates, any interminable litigation over the matter?

NOW is the National Organisation for Women. Their mandate is primarily US issues.
If you feel so strongly about it, why don’t you go join some feminist organisations?

147 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:30:05am

re: #138 LudwigVanQuixote

Womens’ rights groups like NOW are focused on US womens’ rights - that’s where the bulk of their efforts are. It isn’t in the rights elsewhere. Other groups, including AI and HRW do make it a focus of their human rights campaigns to focus on womens’ rights. That isn’t to say that national groups like NOW haven’t spoken up or that they shouldn’t do more - but to do so would take away from their primary mission of improving womens’ rights here in the US.

148 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:30:42am

re: #145 Obdicut

Yes, if you continually raise the bar, nobody will ever reach that bar.

Didn’t realize that a protest was beyond their organization and administrative capacity.

149 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:30:50am

re: #140 Obdicut

Okay, here’s NOW speaking out against Sharia law.

[Link: www.now.org…]

OK so where was the protest? Where were the hollywood celebs with the talking points? Why is this never a key issue that these organizations push when they get air time?

I don’t debate that the feminist organizations know about this. I debate that they do anything about it or say much at all about it to anyone but themselves and then only quietly.

150 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:32:55am

re: #146 iceweasel

NOW is the National Organisation for Women. Their mandate is primarily US issues.
If you feel so strongly about it, why don’t you go join some feminist organisations?

Not my cause - but it’s supposed to be theirs. So long as we’re all clear that the feminist establishment in the US is concerned primarily about bourgeois and careerist stuff, in short, addressing certain short-comings in a modern Western states, then we’re all on the same page.

151 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:33:33am

re: #146 iceweasel

NOW is the National Organisation for Women. Their mandate is primarily US issues.
If you feel so strongly about it, why don’t you go join some feminist organisations?

In other words, only American women’s rights count to them. That was sorta my point entirely.

152 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:33:58am

re: #144 LudwigVanQuixote

I’m not going to play ‘equivalency’ with you, Ludwig.

Back in the ‘90’s, feminist groups were mostly told to shut the hell up on the issue of women’s rights in the Middle East. “liberals” were derided for caring so much about the rights of people in other countries, and women’s rights were part of that.

Feminists have been decrying patriarchal systems for a hell of a long time now. They have not excepted Islam. As one of the posts that I pointed out, there is a great degree of helplessness about how to actually affect the situation of women in the Middle East positively.

I think a lot of feminists feel that although it is now very common knowledge that women in the Middle East are oppressed, the situation of women in the West is seen with overly-rosy glasses. For example, I posted an article on the rape of women in the Scandinavian countries, and how incredibly light the sentences are. For Western women, achieving political change in the West is a very reachable goal; it is a lot more difficult to enact changes in places utterly hostile to you.

153 iceweasel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:34:23am

re: #150 Guanxi88

Not my cause - but it’s supposed to be theirs. So long as we’re all clear that the feminist establishment in the US is concerned primarily about bourgeois and careerist stuff, in short, addressing certain short-comings in a modern Western states, then we’re all on the same page.

That also is incorrect.

154 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:35:15am

re: #152 Obdicut


I think a lot of feminists feel that although it is now very common knowledge that women in the Middle East are oppressed, the situation of women in the West is seen with overly-rosy glasses. For example, I posted an article on the rape of women in the Scandinavian countries, and how incredibly light the sentences are.

Any ID’s on the majority of the perps in those cases? Because, the problem is there, and it’s related to the very one that LVQ’s talking about.

155 iceweasel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:35:45am

re: #151 LudwigVanQuixote

In other words, only American women’s rights count to them. That was sorta my point entirely.

You know I love you too, Ludwig, but that is simply false.
There are lots and lots of feminist organisations, and lots of lots of divisions. Some are less concerned with the global condition of women than others. We need all of them.

156 Spider Mensch  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:36:34am

re: #149 LudwigVanQuixote

OK so where was the protest? Where were the hollywood celebs with the talking points? Why is this never a key issue that these organizations push when they get air time?

I don’t debate that the feminist organizations know about this. I debate that they do anything about it or say much at all about it to anyone but themselves and then only quietly.


it’s not a glam issue. no pr points to be earned. plus they probably are bullied by the possibility of fatwa’s or such being issued against them.

as a side, “A Thousand Splendid Suns” gives a good islamic woman’s point of view, if anyone here hasn’t read it, it’s a good read! but ironically written by a man..lol

157 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:36:44am

re: #154 Guanxi88

Any ID’s on the majority of the perps in those cases? Because, the problem is there, and it’s related to the very one that LVQ’s talking about.

I cannot understand your question, unless you are claiming the rapes were by Moslems, which would be rather odd.

I am talking about the way that rape is dealt with in general in Scandanavia, be the perpetrator a Muslim or a blond, blue-eyed Aryan.

158 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:37:27am

re: #151 LudwigVanQuixote

Please, please read the two articles I linked, the longer discussions.

159 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:37:52am

re: #152 Obdicut

I’m not going to play ‘equivalency’ with you, Ludwig.

Back in the ‘90’s, feminist groups were mostly told to shut the hell up on the issue of women’s rights in the Middle East. “liberals” were derided for caring so much about the rights of people in other countries, and women’s rights were part of that.

Feminists have been decrying patriarchal systems for a hell of a long time now. They have not excepted Islam. As one of the posts that I pointed out, there is a great degree of helplessness about how to actually affect the situation of women in the Middle East positively.

I think a lot of feminists feel that although it is now very common knowledge that women in the Middle East are oppressed, the situation of women in the West is seen with overly-rosy glasses. For example, I posted an article on the rape of women in the Scandinavian countries, and how incredibly light the sentences are. For Western women, achieving political change in the West is a very reachable goal; it is a lot more difficult to enact changes in places utterly hostile to you.

OK, I am not trying to piss off my friends here. I am certainly not trying to piss off you and Ice in particular.

I actually do feel very strongly about women’s rights - as do you and we can all agree to that.

It is my opinion that American women’s groups have much louder voices than they have brought to bear on one of the largest women’s issues on the globe. I am very disappointed with them for doing so very little, and it is my opinion that they have never done enough or even a fraction of what they could do.

If you feel they are legitimately doing all that they can on the issue, then we shall just have to agree to dissagree.

160 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:38:31am

re: #157 Obdicut

I cannot understand your question, unless you are claiming the rapes were by Moslems, which would be rather odd.

I suggest you take a peek into the matter a bit more closely than you might have up until now. The bulk of the perps are new arrivals, accustomed to living under sharia.

161 Jadespring  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:38:34am

re: #128 LudwigVanQuixote

Really, women living in Islamist regimes suffer inequalities that would even make the standards of 16th century England look liberal.

This is pretty well established.

Yet, I have never ever heard a major denunciation of this from a prominent American feminist in a public way.

Even if one case can be found, there should rightly be a sustained chorus of outrage. Where is this chorus?

Are Arab women no longer women?

OR is it only American women that count?

Is it that the meme on the far left was pro Islam as a knee jerk reaction to the rightwing co-opting support of Israel?

I don’t know. I really don’t know why.

I do know that if you care about women’s rights, then you should be consistently appalled at the lot of Muslim women. I also know that the large organizations that supposedly claim to stand for women’s rights are very quiet about the issue.

You know I really don’t want to get into this, but honestly you can shove your self righteous YOU should be doing this or that. You obviously don’t know me or know about a lot of things that do go on out there in the ‘womans movement’. There has been women screaming mostly into the wind about these issues for years until it suddenly became more mainstream to even talk about it. Fact is no one really cared all that much about ‘what went on over there, especially regarding woman’ until the issue ‘hit home’ so to speak. The other unfortunate this is many people don’t really care that all that much except on a superficial level or unless it provides part of the justification for actions ‘over there’. Many people just don’t want to talk about the issues in any great detail unless it’s just echoing ‘yeah bad bad’ and furthering an specific agenda. And the media in the US and in much of the West sure as heck doesn’t seem to be interested in covering it in any sort of mainstream way. So if you haven’t ‘heard’ then you need to look more.

As for big woman’s organizations there are a good many that focus on international woman’s issues. There are a good many that focus on domestic issues. No group has to cover everything because quite frankly that’s still unfortunately a hell of a lot to cover.

And honestly I don’t really understand what your suggesting about the far left being pro-Islam as related to Isreal. I don’t understand what you are suggesting and it doesn’t make sense to what I know about.

Most of the biggest and most activist people I know that deal and/or support woman’s groups who are working on this broad issue are left, far left and sometimes very far left.

162 allegro  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:39:13am

The jist of this conversation sounds like…

Those selfish feminists, only looking out for themselves and not their sisters who have it even worse! Where’s the outrage! Why aren’t you “feminists” just happy with what you’ve got and turn your pretty heads and volunteer spirit to those REALLY in need…

Sheesh.

163 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:39:31am

re: #158 Obdicut

Please, please read the two articles I linked, the longer discussions.

I promise that I am doing so now.

164 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:41:46am

re: #160 Guanxi88

You have very little clue what you’re talking about, and you’re doggedly missing my point entirely.

Rape, in Scandanavia in general, is judged by the severity of physical harm inflicted on the victim. In other words, if someone does not resist much, their attacker gets a very light sentence— often lighter than that for stealing a fancy bike.

That has absolutely nothing to do with anything else. It has been that way for a long time. It has nothing to do with recent immigrants, at all.

165 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:42:47am

re: #162 allegro

The jist of this conversation sounds like…

Those selfish feminists, only looking out for themselves and not their sisters who have it even worse! Where’s the outrage! Why aren’t you “feminists” just happy with what you’ve got and turn your pretty heads and volunteer spirit to those REALLY in need…

Sheesh.

Well that is not what I am saying at all.

It is more like, you hypocrites. If you really gave half as much a damn as you claim to about women’s rights (as opposed to just your own rights) this would be a centerpiece of your discussions.

The pretty little head comment is just uncalled for. I am one of the more consistently pro-woman and womans rights and education people you will ever meet.

166 iceweasel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:44:33am

re: #162 allegro

The jist of this conversation sounds like…

Those selfish feminists, only looking out for themselves and not their sisters who have it even worse! Where’s the outrage! Why aren’t you “feminists” just happy with what you’ve got and turn your pretty heads and volunteer spirit to those REALLY in need…

Sheesh.

That wouldn’t be LVQ, though. He just isn’t aware of what feminist organisations in the US and elsewhere have been up to on this issue, but he’s reading Obdi’s links now.
LVQ definitely isn’t someone concern trolling feminists in that way, nor would he.

167 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:45:06am

re: #164 Obdicut

You have very little clue what you’re talking about, and you’re doggedly missing my point entirely.

Rape, in Scandanavia in general, is judged by the severity of physical harm inflicted on the victim. In other words, if someone does not resist much, their attacker gets a very light sentence— often lighter than that for stealing a fancy bike.

That has absolutely nothing to do with anything else. It has been that way for a long time. It has nothing to do with recent immigrants, at all.

Re: immigrants the bulk of the rapists in Denmark:

[Link: www.cphpost.dk…]

Denmark’s ministry of justice takes a different view of the Amnesty International report, on which you rely so heavily. I’d suggest that SHE might just be a better authority on it

168 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:45:37am

re: #165 LudwigVanQuixote

You will notice, if you read one of the articles, that one of the great frustrations for modern feminists in reference to Islam is that they have already been so vociferous and aggressive against Islam that now, in general, Islam perceives feminism as innately anti-Islamic.

169 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:46:23am

re: #167 Guanxi88

Again: You’re not paying attention to what I’m actually saying.

Do you understand that I am making a point about sentencing?

170 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:47:57am

re: #3 wrenchwench

He’s gone to join the choir invisible.

He’s gone to meet the 72 Virginians.

171 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:49:39am

re: #169 Obdicut

Again: You’re not paying attention to what I’m actually saying.

Do you understand that I am making a point about sentencing?

Do you understand that the point about sentencing is largely irrelevant to the matter under discussion? You’re gonna winge about sentencing guidelines when you’ve got a goddamned epidemic of culturally-driven rape? AI’s got plenty to say about the shortcomings of the legal system; about the ideology that inspires and encourages these attacks, not so much.

‘Course, irritate a Dane, and what does it cost you?

172 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:50:03am

Speaking of the Taliban and human rights, a terrorist attack killed several people working for World Vision at one of their offices in Pakistan’s NW- the charity is withdrawing from Pakistan as a response. It’s a Christian charity, so I suspect that had something to do with their being targeted.

173 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:50:15am

re: #161 Jadespring

You know I really don’t want to get into this, but honestly you can shove your self righteous YOU should be doing this or that. You obviously don’t know me or know about a lot of things that do go on out there in the ‘womans movement’. There has been women screaming mostly into the wind about these issues for years until it suddenly became more mainstream to even talk about it. Fact is no one really cared all that much about ‘what went on over there, especially regarding woman’ until the issue ‘hit home’ so to speak. The other unfortunate this is many people don’t really care that all that much except on a superficial level or unless it provides part of the justification for actions ‘over there’. Many people just don’t want to talk about the issues in any great detail unless it’s just echoing ‘yeah bad bad’ and furthering an specific agenda. And the media in the US and in much of the West sure as heck doesn’t seem to be interested in covering it in any sort of mainstream way. So if you haven’t ‘heard’ then you need to look more.

As for big woman’s organizations there are a good many that focus on international woman’s issues. There are a good many that focus on domestic issues. No group has to cover everything because quite frankly that’s still unfortunately a hell of a lot to cover.

And honestly I don’t really understand what your suggesting about the far left being pro-Islam as related to Isreal. I don’t understand what you are suggesting and it doesn’t make sense to what I know about.

Most of the biggest and most activist people I know that deal and/or support woman’s groups who are working on this broad issue are left, far left and sometimes very far left.

Woah! Going in reverse…

Many of the very very far left are consitently anti-Israel and pro Islam as they see the Palestinians as some sort of oppressed proletariat and the Israelis as some sort of evil occupying force who were not indigenous to their own homeland.

My speculation that the silence I perceive on this issue stems exactly from the point you just made. And that is a speculation, I do not know.

However, I do know that I have been opposed to the abuses of women in Islam long long before 9/11 and I also know that I earned about them in college from male history professors.

As to my self righteousness, I repeat, if one takes flack they are over the target. I strongly believe that American womens groups are disproportionately silent on these issues. I would also note that given the climate of the past administration, had they really cared about this issue they had the perfect national environment to say something about it, yet they failed to do so.

Again, I speculate that this was because they did not want to inadvertently support or even look like they were supporting W Bush. I am on record quite vociferously detesting W. Bush and I really do think he should have been impeached, but that is not the point. The point is that if they cared about the issue for real, they had the best oppurtunity ever to say something, yet they did not.

174 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:50:16am

re: #128 LudwigVanQuixote

Really, women living in Islamist regimes suffer inequalities that would even make the standards of 16th century England look liberal.

16 century England was ruled by one of the greatest women who ever lived.

175 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:51:22am

re: #168 Obdicut

You will notice, if you read one of the articles, that one of the great frustrations for modern feminists in reference to Islam is that they have already been so vociferous and aggressive against Islam that now, in general, Islam perceives feminism as innately anti-Islamic.

Well given the general state of women in Islam, feminism must inherently be innately anti Islamic (at least Islam as defined and practiced in many nations today).

176 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:51:42am

re: #174 Alouette

16 century England was ruled by one of the greatest women who ever lived.

Yep, Also part of my point :)

177 Jadespring  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:52:55am

re: #168 Obdicut

You will notice, if you read one of the articles, that one of the great frustrations for modern feminists in reference to Islam is that they have already been so vociferous and aggressive against Islam that now, in general, Islam perceives feminism as innately anti-Islamic.

True and another issue that just speaking up about it, putting out a press release or educating the public really does sweet f all in convincing a foreign Islamic government to change it’s ways.

So yeah you don’t generally hear a whole lot of woman up and just screaming about it. What you will find is woman working with Islamic woman, woman working on issues around the education of woman in particular countries, woman who do what they can to lobby their own governments to do what they can, even if it’s just to get some sort of statement condemning something, fundraisers for specific groups working on issues in particular countries, lobbying at the UN level etc etc.

178 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:52:55am

re: #171 Guanxi88

Do you understand that the point about sentencing is largely irrelevant to the matter under discussion?

It’s amazing that you can wade into a point someone else is making— in my case, that feminists in Scandinavia are trying to bring attention to the very light sentences for rape— and declare it irrelevant to the matter under discussion.

You’re gonna winge about sentencing guidelines when you’ve got a goddamned epidemic of culturally-driven rape?

Yes, I’m going to ‘winge’ about men being given a 7-month sentence for violent rape. In what way exactly do you have a problem with that?

You’re engaged in one of your usually tiresome false dichotomies. Arguing against the horrifically light sentences that rapists receive does not remove the ability to also argue that rape in the immigrant population is a huge problem.

179 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:54:17am

re: #174 Alouette

16 century England was ruled by one of the greatest women who ever lived.

Mary Tudor?

180 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:54:54am

re: #166 iceweasel

That wouldn’t be LVQ, though. He just isn’t aware of what feminist organisations in the US and elsewhere have been up to on this issue, but he’s reading Obdi’s links now.
LVQ definitely isn’t someone concern trolling feminists in that way, nor would he.

Thank you and of course I would not.

181 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:55:27am

re: #175 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes, it is. Exactly. The mere fucking existence of organized women’s groups is an affront to radical Islam. Any national protest that women make is an attack on radical Islam.

Any time a group of women march for their rights, it’s an attack on radical Islam.

And that’s beautiful, man.

182 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 12:00:48pm

re: #177 Jadespring

I respect women’s organizations more when they do things that improve the life of women than when they just make a big noise.

My fiancee, for example, works with another group of culturally-oppressed women: Roma women. Roma society is very oppressive of women. Her organization focusing on helping women, especially those who’s relations have been killed or imprisoned, become financially independent.

I’d rather they spent their time and money helping women with that, than marching and making a big noise. Most people don’t have much knowledge of Roma culture, but most people (in Europe, anyway) are also enormous goddamn racists against the Roma, so telling them that the Roma are shitty towards women probably wouldn’t have any positive effect at all.

183 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 12:05:02pm

violence is effective against terrorists …

and speaking of terrorists …….. whassup with that witch “jihad jane?”

184 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 12:07:31pm

re: #181 Obdicut

Yes, it is. Exactly. The mere fucking existence of organized women’s groups is an affront to radical Islam. Any national protest that women make is an attack on radical Islam.

Any time a group of women march for their rights, it’s an attack on radical Islam.

And that’s beautiful, man.

Amen! We really do agree more than we disagree. The simple fact of the matter is that the best way to defeat the Bin Ladin’s of the world is to have voting, educated Arab women who can support themselves financially.

All of that We own everything macho BS goes out the window when she has the viable option to call you a pig and laugh at you.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind - or Bin Laden’s if you listen to him that his greatest fear from America is the image of a female Saudi MD in a miniskirt.

I am reading your links and taking some heart from them. It is softening my views on my perceived failures of American women’s groups, but I still strongly believe that they should be doing more.

185 Jadespring  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 12:09:32pm

re: #173 LudwigVanQuixote

Woah! Going in reverse…

Many of the very very far left are consitently anti-Israel and pro Islam as they see the Palestinians as some sort of oppressed proletariat and the Israelis as some sort of evil occupying force who were not indigenous to their own homeland.

Perhaps I’m talking about a different group of manys then because I just haven’t seen that as some sort of homogenous group think on the left. Yes I’ve see those that would fit your description and some that would perhaps would fit the pro-Islam description to a point. Anyways I do not want to get into to much depth on that particular issue because I’d be violating one of my internet rules.
My comments aren’t just about Isreal and Palestine but on a broader level, Iraq, Afghanistan and other Islamic areas in general.



My speculation that the silence I perceive on this issue stems exactly from the point you just made. And that is a speculation, I do not know.

However, I do know that I have been opposed to the abuses of women in Islam long long before 9/11 and I also know that I earned about them in college from male history professors.

As to my self righteousness, I repeat, if one takes flack they are over the target. I strongly believe that American womens groups are disproportionately silent on these issues. I would also note that given the climate of the past administration, had they really cared about this issue they had the perfect national environment to say something about it, yet they failed to do so.

Again, I speculate that this was because they did not want to inadvertently support or even look like they were supporting W Bush. I am on record quite vociferously detesting W. Bush and I really do think he should have been impeached, but that is not the point. The point is that if they cared about the issue for real, they had the best oppurtunity ever to say something, yet they did not.

Well in reality one can take flack and be on their way to actually missing the actual target but anyways that’s rhetorical metaphor for yah.

Thanks for explaining why you think it. That makes more sense. It’s hard to argue with that that’s not what you’ve seen. It’s obvious that you have. I just have to disagree that it wasn’t occuring and that a whole bunch of things that have/are occurring do actually come from the left.


So maybe we’ll just agree to disagree on these points.

Maybe a better question or discussion would be, what exactly do you want to see them do?

186 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 12:11:52pm

re: #184 LudwigVanQuixote

If you believe they should be doing more, I encourage you to join them and make that case. In all your oodles of spare time, that is. ;)

But I think what you perceive as silence is angry frustration, born from years of grappling with the problem.

But thanks for softening. There is probably better writing on the situation out there, but those were just what I found with quick searching.

187 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 12:18:00pm

re: #185 Jadespring

Well in reality one can take flack and be on their way to actually missing the actual target but anyways that’s rhetorical metaphor for yah.

Thanks for explaining why you think it. That makes more sense. It’s hard to argue with that that’s not what you’ve seen. It’s obvious that you have. I just have to disagree that it wasn’t occuring and that a whole bunch of things that have/are occurring do actually come from the left.

So maybe we’ll just agree to disagree on these points.

Maybe a better question or discussion would be, what exactly do you want to see them do?

What I want to see them do is mention it more at the very least.

If say the Queen of Jordan shows up on Oprah and paints a very disproportionate view of the lives of women in Islam - and Jordan is as liberal an Arab state as they come, I want to hear Oprah, rather than gush and throw her melons, ask her something about say how women fair in Saudi, Iran or Afghanistan.

I want a description of the burka and the veil in feminist terms to not have to come out of the lips of people like Malkin or Coulter.

I want the consistency that if people can get (rightly) cranky over the Playboy bunny outfit, they certainly ought to draw the connection clearly to things like the burka or what the reward for a shahid is.

I want the average woman in America to know what female genital mutilation is.

And that is all step one.

What I really want is for women’s organizations here to do is bring over and educate Muslim girls in American universities so that there can be a whole lot more Arab girls who are medical doctors and wear miniskirts if they choose to.

188 Guanxi88  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 12:19:28pm

re: #178 Obdicut

Arguing against the horrifically light sentences that rapists receive does not remove the ability to also argue that rape in the immigrant population is a huge problem.

You’re doing the former, and not the latter. So long as you have clarity on the nature of the problem, you may proceed as you think best.

Oh, and to avoid wading in - I’ll try to remember to ask your permission before commenting.

189 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 12:29:15pm

unfortunately for the women in the muslim world, it’s not just the radicals like osama who are threatened by empowered women. even many of the so called “moderate” muslims in the mideast treat their women like property. and that’s a much bigger issue that seems to be lost on those who think the repression of muslim women is just an issue with the “fundamentalist” muslims.

190 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 12:32:07pm

re: #188 Guanxi88

You’re doing the former, and not the latter. So long as you have clarity on the nature of the problem, you may proceed as you think best.

Why thanks!

Given the impossibility of commenting on all aspects of something simultaneously, I find it pretty convenient to do so.

Oh, and to avoid wading in - I’ll try to remember to ask your permission before commenting.

Ah, hypocrisy.

191 avanti  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 2:40:19pm

Massa story was tickling, now “snorkeling” and more at the link:


“Clarke says that Massa’s roommate, Tom Maxfield, was also assaulted. “Tom lived on upper bunk,” Clarke say. “When you’re on ship, you’re almost exhausted 24-7. So a lot of times you sleep with your uniform on. Tom and Massa shared a stateroom together. Massa climbed up on the top of his bunk, which is hard to do—you never crawl up on somebody else’s bunk. He wakes up to Massa undoing his pants trying to snorkel him.” Ron Moss also confirmed hearing this story from Maxfield. Maxfield did not return calls and messages left for him—I’ll update if he does.”

link.

192 Izzyboy  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 2:56:24pm

Ex-terrorist = dead terrorist. Thanks for making me smile after a crappy day Charles.

193 markie  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 4:16:00pm

Nothing like a terrorist forcibly changed from pushing explosives to pushing daisies.


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