Revisionist History: Coming Up on Fox News

Religion • Views: 3,186

Fox News is going to be heavily pimping the “founding fathers were Christian fundamentalists” canard tonight, courtesy of Michelle Malkin, James Dobson (Malkin does her interviews from Dobson’s TV studio), and Sean Hannity:

michellemalkin: Will be on @hannityshow on FNC tonite 930pm Eastern to talk Texas educ stds/txtbook controversy. @seanhannity

Why is there suddenly a push to promote this revisionist nonsense? Because the Texas State Board of Education is holding hearings on the state’s social studies curriculum, and Governor Rick Perry has stacked the board with religious fundamentalists dedicated to ruining the minds of Texas schoolchildren.

The Texas Freedom Network has been live-blogging today’s hearings, if you’d like to see the kind of garbage Fox News defends.

UPDATE at 3/10/10 6:57:06 pm:

Malkin may have gotten bumped off the show in favor of yet another discussion about the incredible wonderfulness of tea parties. Meanwhile, the Texas State Board of Education continues their important work of revising the history of the United States to be more like something the founding fathers would have abhorred.

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245 comments
1 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:32:36pm

I want the ghost of Thomas Jefferson to come and rhetorically kick their asses.

Or RACHEL. FRIGGIN. MADDOW.

2 swamprat  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:33:04pm

Fox news; Filling a niche market, and trying to pretend it’s a moral choice.

3 brookly red  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:34:10pm

re: #2 swamprat

Fox news; Filling a niche market, and trying to pretend it’s a moral choice.

true, but it’s a darn big niche.

4 freetoken  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:35:30pm

Looks like FoxNews has been zapping the livestreaming sites showing their material, and some of the fans aren’t happy:

Fox News rages War on Customers Viewing ONLINE!

5 Croc-Wearing Authoritarian  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:35:49pm

An essay from 1850, at my history archive:

The United States is NOT a Christian nation.

6 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:36:57pm

Uh oh, the fanatics are watching me.

@michellemalkin Michelle, you just got a Charles Johnson attack: j.mp /via @Lizardoid

7 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:37:10pm

re: #1 Obdicut

I want the ghost of Thomas Jefferson to come and rhetorically kick their asses.

Or RACHEL. FRIGGIN. MADDOW.

I would be OK with Jefferson’s ghost literally kicking their asses.

Except he probably wouldn’t hit a lady, so MM would escape.

8 TREKrider  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:39:15pm

Charles, they love your work exposing photoshop, but not challenging their revisionist history… can they just get back to the constitution please?

9 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:41:16pm

re: #2 swamprat

Fox news; Filling a niche market, and trying to pretend it’s a moral choice.

I actually though that the hard news coverage of the Texas Textbook Wars on Fox was quite good. Too bad Hannity had to turn around and spoil it. Thankfully, I’m going to watch Dog the Bounty Hunter instead, so I don’t have to hear him.

10 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:41:56pm
11 The Yankee  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:42:14pm

Does Fox news ever say no to anything that is non-liberal.

12 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:43:23pm
13 political lunatic  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:43:38pm

I’ll say it again: Fox News is not a legitimate news organization.

14 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:44:10pm

Most of the founding fathers would have been appalled at what these fundamentalist groups are doing, in a country that they specifically designed to be free of the religious craziness they fled Europe to avoid.

15 [deleted]  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:45:18pm
16 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:45:46pm

re: #14 Charles

Most of the founding fathers would have been appalled at what these fundamentalist groups are doing, in a country that they specifically designed to be free of the religious craziness they fled Europe to avoid.

Though to be fair, many Puritans would have found it just ducky.

17 political lunatic  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:46:31pm

re: #14 Charles

Good luck telling that to these right wing lunatics who want to believe this stuff. This is a textbook definition of revisionist history.

18 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:46:49pm

Interesting. Looks like Michelle may have been bumped by a “panel discussion” talking about how wonderful the tea parties are.

19 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:46:50pm

re: #15 MikeySDCA

Cotton Mather would have loved it, though.

Not sure about that. He probably would have found the anti-intellectualism fairly off-putting. He actually placed some value on learning.

20 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:47:27pm

re: #16 Dark_Falcon

I wonder how many of these people talking about it on Fox have any clue why Rhode Island was founded?

21 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:47:38pm

re: #18 Charles

Interesting. Looks like Michelle may have been bumped by a “panel discussion” taling about how wonderful the tea parties are.

Well, I’m sad to say that that would still count as an improvement.

/sobs

22 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:48:03pm

Number of Southern Baptists who signed the Declaration or the Constitution? Zero.

I don’t have cable, so can’t tune in to Faux News. Keep the commentary coming, please!

23 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:48:28pm

re: #20 Obdicut

I wonder how many of these people talking about it on Fox have any clue why Rhode Island was founded?

Almost none. Most people know very little history, which is a big reason why I hang out here.

24 brookly red  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:48:45pm

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

Well, I’m sad to say that that would still count as an improvement.

/sobs

after all, they do know how to run a business …

25 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:49:04pm

re: #20 Obdicut

I wonder how many of these people talking about it on Fox have any clue why Rhode Island was founded?

Heh. Clever boots!

26 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:49:56pm

re: #16 Dark_Falcon

Though to be fair, many Puritans would have found it just ducky.

The Original American Taliban.

27 Jadespring  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:50:02pm

re: #20 Obdicut

I wonder how many of these people talking about it on Fox have any clue why Rhode Island was founded?

Why was it?

28 brookly red  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:50:43pm

re: #20 Obdicut

I wonder how many of these people talking about it on Fox have any clue why Rhode Island was founded?

/to keep Bostonians out of Connecticut?

29 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:50:43pm

Hannity and Malkin?

I’d rather watch Beck boil Progs.

30 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:51:25pm

re: #11 The Yankee

Does Fox news ever say no to anything that is non-liberal.

WTF are you talking about?!?!? They are Fair. And Unbalanced.

Duh!!

31 freetoken  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:52:02pm

re: #16 Dark_Falcon

But… the Puritans were not the founding fathers. No doubt, the 17th century Puritans that came over here were explicitly Christian in not only their religious activities but also their governance, yet by the time of the founding of the US a century later many of the leaders in the US didn’t have that Christian evangelical outlook on polity.

32 The Yankee  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:52:12pm

I think Rhode Island was founded in part cause that part of New England wanted to keep the slave trade going.

33 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:52:57pm

re: #27 Jadespring

A dude was ejected from Massachussets Bay Colony for heresy, basically. He settled in what’s now Rhode Island, made nice with the local indian tribes, and declared the place “Providence” for it was to be a place of freedom of conscience— you could worship however you wanted.

I sometimes think of Rhode Island as the real beginning of the United States of America. The first place a really free man stood.

34 political lunatic  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:53:01pm

re: #27 Jadespring

I believe it was founded because the Puritans exiled anyone who went with a different religion to there.

35 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:53:09pm

re: #1 Obdicut

I want the ghost of Thomas Jefferson to come and rhetorically kick their asses.

Or RACHEL. FRIGGIN. MADDOW.

Rachel Maddow is my hero. Literally the only figure on cable news I can watch.

36 brookly red  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:53:36pm

re: #29 Cato the Elder

Hannity and Malkin?

I’d rather watch Beck boil Progs.

LOL, I thought you typed Frogs… gotta clean my glasses.

37 Jadespring  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:54:09pm

re: #33 Obdicut

re: #34 political lunatic

Cool. Thanks.

38 simoom  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:54:13pm

I posted this earlier today, but it’s relevant to this topic as bunch of what Malkin just claimed on Hannity is covered in today’s Texas Education Agency press release.

Austin Statesman: SBOE jabs back at Fox News

The State Board of Education has got a bone to pick with Fox News.

“Fox inaccurately reporting State Board of Education action,” reads a statement just released by the Texas Education Agency.
…
So here is the truth: Christmas is still in the standards as are Veterans Day and Independence Day. U.S. history prior to 1877 will, indeed, be taught and so will Abraham Lincoln and George Washington.

Here’s the link to the actual press release (which contains Fox quotes and rebuttals) on the TEA website:
tea.state.tx.us

39 brookly red  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:55:11pm

re: #33 Obdicut

A dude was ejected from Massachussets Bay Colony for heresy, basically. He settled in what’s now Rhode Island, made nice with the local indian tribes, and declared the place “Providence” for it was to be a place of freedom of conscience— you could worship however you wanted.

I sometimes think of Rhode Island as the real beginning of the United States of America. The first place a really free man stood.

the local Indians were not really free?

40 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:56:46pm

re: #39 brookly red

No, I don’t think they had freedom as we’d define it. Let me check.

41 Croc-Wearing Authoritarian  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:57:07pm

re: #39 brookly red

the local Indians were not really free?

The founders of Rhode Island were butchered in an Indian attack.

42 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:57:51pm

re: #31 freetoken

But… the Puritans were not the founding fathers. No doubt, the 17th century Puritans that came over here were explicitly Christian in not only their religious activities but also their governance, yet by the time of the founding of the US a century later many of the leaders in the US didn’t have that Christian evangelical outlook on polity.

Exactly. Many of those communities had morphed into Unitarian or Congregationalist societies. Very much “free thinkers” after a century.

Roger Williams:

en.wikipedia.org

43 brookly red  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:57:52pm

re: #40 Obdicut

No, I don’t think they had freedom as we’d define it. Let me check.

no I think we have defined their freedom enough thank you anyway.

44 brookly red  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:59:13pm

re: #41 Alouette

The founders of Rhode Island were butchered in an Indian attack.

ouch

45 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 6:59:56pm

re: #39 brookly red

It looks like they were a hereditary monarchy, so no, they weren’t free.

46 lawhawk  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:00:08pm

re: #18 Charles

A Buffalo-area Tea Party activist, Carl Paladino, is threatening to run on the GOP line and bypass the state GOP convention, claiming that the state GOP has already settled on Rick Lazio. The state GOP says in response that they welcome challenges and calls for fiscal responsibility but to run through the party channels - to make his case to the county chairs. Paladino is a real estate developer, but he’s a political unknown.

Meanwhile, Steve Levy, a Democrat is courting GOP support for a possible run in the general election (as a way to sidestep what is likely an inevitable Cuomo nomination on the Democrat line).

I think Paladino is putting the screws to the state GOP precisely because Levy is contemplating a run on the GOP line to avoid a Democratic party primary - that Levy would be a true RINO-style candidate.

That said, none of the candidates in the ring thus far ignite the passions, and the only one who has statewide experience is the one guy who isn’t in the ring - Cuomo.

47 Professor Chaos  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:00:18pm

re: #38 simoom

I posted this earlier today, but it’s relevant to this topic as bunch of what Malkin just claimed on Hannity is covered in today’s Texas Education Agency press release.

Austin Statesman: SBOE jabs back at Fox News

Here’s the link to the actual press release (which contains Fox quotes and rebuttals) on the TEA website:
[Link: www.tea.state.tx.us…]

Oh, you mean FNC is hyping bullshit to give their viewers their daily dose of OUTRAGE?

Color me soooooo surprised….

48 Lidane  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:00:40pm

re: #35 WindUpBird

Rachel Maddow is my hero. Literally the only figure on cable news I can watch.

Same here. The rest of them are insufferable.

Well, okay. I’ll make an exception for Shepard Smith on Fox, just because it’s obvious he loathes the people he works with and stays where he’s at for the money. Anyone who has the freedom to make fun of Glenn Beck on the same network and will and not get fired for it is cool in my book. Plus, his Katrina meltdowns were awesome.

49 brookly red  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:00:56pm

re: #45 Obdicut

It looks like they were a hereditary monarchy, so no, they weren’t free.

interesting point.

50 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:01:35pm

re: #41 Alouette

Actually, they let most of the citizens leave Providence before they burnt it.

51 Lidane  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:01:52pm

re: #48 Lidane

Bah. PIMF. That should be “at will”.

52 brookly red  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:02:42pm

re: #50 Obdicut

Actually, they let most of the citizens leave Providence before they burnt it.

perhaps this is what should be in textbooks?

53 researchok  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:03:17pm

I know I’m going to get flack for this but it does bear remembering that the Fox opinion shows are not news. The same criticisms of Fox opinion programming can be made of MSNBC or even CNN.

Further, even the news divisions of those networks have their share of errors and faux pas

I’m no fan of the FOX and MSNBC opinion shows. They pander to9 their chosen demographic groups and could care less. CNN leaves much to be desired in that arena as well. That said, those shows are not news.

54 freetoken  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:03:20pm

re: #42 austin_blue

One of the complaints Gary North has against the USA is that the Constitutional convention (of 1789) dumped the explicitly Christian leanings of the Colonies’ charters.

Of course, that was one of the whole points of the Constitution to begin with… a concept lost of the Beck/Malkins of this world.

55 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:03:31pm

This is OT but it’s very good. It is by Jonah Goldberg, but its well worth reading:

Where Feminists Get It Right

56 Baboon Cheeks  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:03:36pm

re: #14 Charles

Most of the founding fathers would have been appalled at what these fundamentalist groups are doing, in a country that they specifically designed to be free of the religious craziness they fled Europe to avoid.

If a lightbulb were ever to go on in a certain mentally challenged stalker’s head, he might say:

The Founding Fathers were Progressives!

57 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:03:38pm

re: #52 brookly red

I believe it is.

58 Jadespring  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:04:00pm

re: #45 Obdicut

It looks like they were a hereditary monarchy, so no, they weren’t free.

Eh what? Which nation are you talking about?

59 brookly red  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:04:22pm

re: #53 researchok

I know I’m going to get flack for this but it does bear remembering that the Fox opinion shows are not news. The same criticisms of Fox opinion programming can be made of MSNBC or even CNN.

Further, even the news divisions of those networks have their share of errors and faux pas

I’m no fan of the FOX and MSNBC opinion shows. They pander to9 their chosen demographic groups and could care less. CNN leaves much to be desired in that arena as well. That said, those shows are not news.

getting flack? must be over target.

60 The Curmudgeon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:05:29pm

I watched Malkin discuss the Texas education situation tonight. She didn’t mention the “Christian roots of the Constitution” issue that’s so popular at the Texas State Board of Education.

61 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:06:16pm

re: #58 Jadespring

The Narragansett tribe. Quick research indicated they had a hereditary tribal leader. Most of the tribes up there were set up that way, too, so it’s what I’d expect.

62 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:07:14pm

re: #53 researchok

I know I’m going to get flack for this but it does bear remembering that the Fox opinion shows are not news. The same criticisms of Fox opinion programming can be made of MSNBC or even CNN.

Further, even the news divisions of those networks have their share of errors and faux pas

I’m no fan of the FOX and MSNBC opinion shows. They pander to9 their chosen demographic groups and could care less. CNN leaves much to be desired in that arena as well. That said, those shows are not news.

Agreed. Like I said, the hard news coverage of the textbook wars has been quite good on Fox. The commentary: not so much.

63 Soap_Man  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:07:46pm

I wish there weren’t so many subject where I needed to post this:

Area Man Passionate Defender Of What He Imagines Constitution To Be

“Men like Madison and Jefferson were moved by the ideals of Christianity, and wanted the United States to reflect those values as a Christian nation,” continued Mortensen, referring to the “Father of the Constitution,” James Madison, considered by many historians to be an atheist, and Thomas Jefferson, an Enlightenment-era thinker who rejected the divinity of Christ and was in France at the time the document was written. “The words on the page speak for themselves.”

64 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:08:10pm

re: #56 Jimmah

If a lightbulb were ever to go on in a certain mentally challenged stalker’s head, he might say:

The Founding Fathers were Progressives!

Which stalker would that be, because most their leaders don’t even have the wiring to turn the lightbulb on.

65 avanti  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:08:42pm

re: #56 Jimmah

If a lightbulb were ever to go on in a certain mentally challenged stalker’s head, he might say:

The Founding Fathers were Progressives!

Jefferson certainly, he was a deist with his own Bible and was very critical of a lot of religious dogma.

66 iceweasel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:09:02pm

re: #56 Jimmah

If a lightbulb were ever to go on in a certain mentally challenged stalker’s head, he might say:

The Founding Fathers were Progressives!

I never get tired of pointing out the idiocy of Beck’s (and TeA PaRTiErS’) fetish for Tom Paine:

Glenn Beck is just an asshole, and next week he’ll announce that he’s Sponge Bob and he lives in a pineapple under the sea. But before another sputtering doofus claims to be the author of the Rights of Man, he might want to check if they share a single belief.

Do you like estate taxes? Paine was pitching them in 1791.

How about progressive taxation? Paine wasn’t just for it, he made charts and graphs.

Welfare? Absolutely.

Government make-work programs? Yep. Pay for them with the estate tax.

Public education? Yes, please.

International organizations? Paine said we needed them. Thought they might be useful for preventing wars after we disarmed.

Feminism?

If a woman were to defend the cause of her sex, she might address him in the following manner … If we have an equal right with you to virtue, why should we not have an equal right to praise? … Our duties are different from yours, but they are not therefore less difficult to fulfill, or of less consequence to society … You cannot be ignorant that we have need of courage not less than you … Permit our names to be sometimes pronounced beyond the narrow circle in which we live. Permit friendship, or at least love, to inscribe its emblem on the tomb where our ashes repose; and deny us not that public esteem which, after the esteem of one’s self, is the sweetest reward of well doing. — T. Paine

Compare and contrast:

OK, so anyway, I was talking about ugly people. Ugly people, if you’re a guy, you can get past it. I don’t think you can as an ugly woman. I don’t — no, I don’t. If you’re an ugly woman, I apologize. Oh, you’ve got a double cross, because if you’re an ugly woman, you’re probably a progressive as well. —G. Beck

Animal Rights Nuts?

Everything of cruelty to animals is a violation of moral duty. — T. Paine

Religion?

Religion is under attack! — G. Beck

Priests and conjurors are of the same trade. — T. Paine

Clammy Tub Toys who Think Putting on a Tricorn Makes Them Thomas Paine?

I’m Thomas Paine. — G. Beck

The sublime and the ridiculous are often so nearly related, that it is difficult to class them separately. — T. Paine

Tom Paine was a Radical Totalitarian Commie Progressive! /

67 Lidane  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:09:26pm

re: #55 Dark_Falcon

This is OT but it’s very good. It is by Jonah Goldberg, but its well worth reading:

Where Feminists Get It Right

*sigh*

I’m having a stopped clock moment here. For once, Jonah’s not being a total douche and is right about something. It almost hurts to type that. =/

68 jaunte  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:09:33pm

FOX Coverage of Texas Debate: FAIL
tfninsider.org

69 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:09:46pm

re: #56 Jimmah

If a lightbulb were ever to go on in a certain mentally challenged stalker’s head, he might say:

The Founding Fathers were Progressives!

Violently radical progressives with prices on their heads.

70 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:10:00pm

I tuned into Fox at 6:30 Pacific — was she on before that?

71 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:10:05pm

re: #55 Dark_Falcon

I am not attempting to slight women at all, but this:

Women civilize men. As a general rule, men will only be as civilized as female expectations and demands force them to be. “Liberate” men from those expectations, and Lord of the Flies logic kicks in. Liberate women from this barbarism, and male decency will soon follow.

… is total bullshit.

72 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:10:17pm

re: #54 freetoken

One of the complaints Gary North has against the USA is that the Constitutional convention (of 1789) dumped the explicitly Christian leanings of the Colonies’ charters.

Of course, that was one of the whole points of the Constitution to begin with… a concept lost of the Beck/Malkins of this world.

Yes. They knew the problems that a State Religion caused, and the only way to deal with it was to excise religion entirely from the Constitution. Jefferson talked about “Nature’s God”, not the personal God of the Christian Bible. Big difference. The founders were Deists, not Theists.

73 The Curmudgeon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:12:21pm

re: #70 Charles

I tuned into Fox at 6:30 Pacific — was she on before that?

I don’t recall if it was O’Reilly or Hannity. But it was one of those two.

74 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:12:24pm

re: #71 Slumbering Behemoth

I am not attempting to slight women at all, but this:

Women civilize men. As a general rule, men will only be as civilized as female expectations and demands force them to be. “Liberate” men from those expectations, and Lord of the Flies logic kicks in. Liberate women from this barbarism, and male decency will soon follow.

… is total bullshit.

how so?

75 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:12:35pm

re: #71 Slumbering Behemoth

Yeah, that’s goddamn idiotic.

It’s also terrible logic— it’s beyond circular, it curves back into itself.

The rest of the article is quite good, though, obviously, the arguments aren’t new since he’s just endorsing feminist arguments.

76 TampaKnight  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:12:42pm

I’m a Catholic and fully believe in the separation of Church and State.

77 Professor Chaos  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:13:21pm

re: #70 Charles

I tuned into Fox at 6:30 Pacific — was she on before that?

She was on Hannity about 15 minutes after the hour. Just caught the tail end of it myself.

78 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:13:41pm

re: #63 Soap_Man

I wish there weren’t so many subject where I needed to post this:

Area Man Passionate Defender Of What He Imagines Constitution To Be

“Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! The Great and Powerful Oz Has Spoken!”

79 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:13:58pm

re: #16 Dark_Falcon

Though to be fair, many Puritans would have found it just ducky.

Real Puritans duck witches.

80 Carlos Dangler  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:14:15pm

re: #18 Charles

Interesting. Looks like Michelle may have been bumped by a “panel discussion” talking about how wonderful the tea parties are.

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

81 Baboon Cheeks  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:14:28pm

re: #66 iceweasel

Tom Paine was a Radical Totalitarian Commie Progressive! /

Heh! I’m sure that on a recent video, I actually heard Beck say something like “who was Tom Paine…? Tom Paine was …well, I suppose I’d have to say he was an 18th century version of me”

82 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:14:36pm

re: #72 austin_blue

Yes. They knew the problems that a State Religion caused, and the only way to deal with it was to excise religion entirely from the Constitution. Jefferson talked about “Nature’s God”, not the personal God of the Christian Bible. Big difference. The founders were Deists, not Theists.

Many of them were, but not all. And Christianity is tightly woven into America’s history and culture. That does not, however, justify theocracy or revisionist history.

83 avanti  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:14:37pm

re: #63 Soap_Man

I wish there weren’t so many subject where I needed to post this:

Area Man Passionate Defender Of What He Imagines Constitution To Be

He should read some of Jefferson’s quotes. Imagine this one as part of a GOP stump speech:

“And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823”

84 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:14:46pm

re: #74 Dark_Falcon

The reason I felt it was terrible was because the logic is impossible. If women civilize men through expectations, how is barbarism removed? Shouldn’t it be through women’s expectations? That’s how he’s claiming men are civilized.

85 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:14:51pm

re: #52 brookly red

perhaps this is what should be in textbooks?

That the Rhode Island Indians let most of the civilians out of Providence before burning it?

86 Decatur Deb  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:15:18pm

‘Nite, all.

87 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:15:31pm

re: #61 Obdicut

The Narragansett tribe. Quick research indicated they had a hereditary tribal leader. Most of the tribes up there were set up that way, too, so it’s what I’d expect.

Well, the Iroquois had their league. How were leaders for that chosen?

88 brookly red  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:15:46pm

re: #85 SanFranciscoZionist

That the Rhode Island Indians let most of the civilians out of Providence before burning it?

no history… all of it.

89 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:15:47pm

re: #71 Slumbering Behemoth

I am not attempting to slight women at all, but this:

… is total bullshit.

I don’t know, DF. Seems to me there’s a certain logic behind that. But then, I’m a Dave Barry fan.

:-)

90 iceweasel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:17:12pm

re: #84 Obdicut

The reason I felt it was terrible was because the logic is impossible. If women civilize men through expectations, how is barbarism removed? Shouldn’t it be through women’s expectations? That’s how he’s claiming men are civilized.

And undercutting his own opening example, that of mothers mutilating their daughters.
The patriarchy only survives with the willing support of women. Sexism and misogyny aren’t exclusively male traits. Neither are aggression, violence, and barbarity. The person in charge of Rwanda’s horrific rape program, which involved releasing criminals with AIDS and telling them to rape Tutsi? Yeah, that was a woman too.

91 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:17:25pm

re: #87 SanFranciscoZionist

The Iroquis were a complex confederacy that are hugely interesting, and there is no way I can do them service here— both because I have gaps in my knowledge about them and there just isn’t room.

But suffice it to say that they had female sufferage, and in many ways were ahead of any enlightenment country.

92 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:17:35pm

re: #71 Slumbering Behemoth

I am not attempting to slight women at all, but this:

… is total bullshit.

I do agree, but it has been social dogma for a long time.

93 avanti  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:17:36pm

re: #81 Jimmah

Heh! I’m sure that on a recent video, I actually heard Beck say something like “who was Tom Paine…? Tom Paine was …well, I suppose I’d have to say he was an 18th century version of me”

Has Beck read anything by Tom Paine on religion ?

94 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:18:17pm

re: #91 Obdicut

Suffrage. Damnit. PIMF.

95 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:18:26pm

re: #72 austin_blue

Yes. They knew the problems that a State Religion caused, and the only way to deal with it was to excise religion entirely from the Constitution. Jefferson talked about “Nature’s God”, not the personal God of the Christian Bible. Big difference. The founders were Deists, not Theists.

Depends on the Founder, really. There’s a decided range among them. Jefferson’s crew were decidedly deists—“One God at the most,” as the saying goes.

96 iceweasel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:18:36pm

re: #81 Jimmah

Heh! I’m sure that on a recent video, I actually heard Beck say something like “who was Tom Paine…? Tom Paine was …well, I suppose I’d have to say he was an 18th century version of me”

Yes, he did, more than once. There might be video of that at the HuffPo link I already provided.

97 Lidane  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:18:38pm

re: #71 Slumbering Behemoth

To be fair, it’s the best Jonah can do under the circumstances. He’s finding himself in agreement with “professional feminists” about something. I’m guessing the cognitive dissonance of that triggered that paragraph.

98 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:19:17pm

re: #84 Obdicut

The reason I felt it was terrible was because the logic is impossible. If women civilize men through expectations, how is barbarism removed? Shouldn’t it be through women’s expectations? That’s how he’s claiming men are civilized.

I think he misplaced his cardinal point. Here’s the penultimate paragraph:

Forgetting the question of decency and morality for a moment, there’s the matter of national interests. Female equality seems to be a pretty reliable treatment for many of the world’s worst pathologies. Population growth in the Third World tends to go down as female literacy goes up. Indeed, female empowerment might be the single best weapon in the “root causes” arsenal in the war on terror.

99 Jadespring  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:19:25pm

re: #61 Obdicut

The Narragansett tribe. Quick research indicated they had a hereditary tribal leader. Most of the tribes up there were set up that way, too, so it’s what I’d expect.

There wasn’t just one leader but sachems and councils as well. Anyways how does that imply not being ‘free?”

100 Chaplain  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:19:27pm

Both sides are trying to re-write history. Fox news is just the latest of a long line of both secular and Christian arm-chair historians.

I grew up in, horror of horrors, a Fundamentalist Christian school and was taught about how “Christian” the founding fathers were. I grew up and learned some critical thinking skills later in life and I now know these men weren’t the fundamentalist Christians my text books made them out to be but they weren’t dyed in the wool secularists either (well maybe Ben Franklin, who loved the ladies, and Thomas Jefferson, who also loved the ladies were secularists). I don’t know what any of these men believed in their heart of hearts, no one can know that except them. These great men died a long time ago and what they did or didn’t believe is between them and whatever God they did or did not believe in and should have no relevance on the battles (metaphorically speaking of course) that are being fought for this nation’s identity.

Oh, and for what it is worth, I would be weary cheering on the likes of Rev. Eric Williams. For a man that spends a lot of time decrying the role of “Christian” organizations in American politics, he is never far from a political controversy. That does not excuse the actions of the ADF or “the family”. If they violate the IRS rules (Section 501(c)(3)) then their tax-exempt status should be revoked. “Them’s the rules!”

101 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:19:56pm

re: #76 TampaKnight

I’m a Catholic and fully believe in the separation of Church and State.

Catholics in the United States, among many others, have good reason to. Some of these yahoos making noise now should bear in mind that the Danbury Baptists didn’t write to Thomas Jefferson about Church and State because they were a dominant majority, but because they were a rather downtrodden oddball sect.

102 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:19:57pm

re: #98 Dark_Falcon

Yes. That is an absolutely true point, and I think one well-aimed at his NRO audience.

103 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:20:06pm

re: #76 TampaKnight

I’m a Catholic and fully believe in the separation of Church and State.

And well you should! JFK had to defend himself continuously against the charge in 1960, that he was a tool of Rome.

Good history question:

Who was the first Republican to win a Texas majority of the Presidential Vote after the Civil War?

Don’t wiki or Google, take a guess!

104 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:20:33pm

re: #95 SanFranciscoZionist

Depends on the Founder, really. There’s a decided range among them. Jefferson’s crew were decidedly deists—“One God at the most,” as the saying goes.

Yes, but they ran the show.

105 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:20:45pm

re: #97 Lidane

To be fair, it’s the best Jonah can do under the circumstances. He’s finding himself in agreement with “professional feminists” about something. I’m guessing the cognitive dissonance of that triggered that paragraph.

It can be quite disorienting, agreeing with people who you normally oppose. I’ve felt that way more than once here, so I’m willing to give Goldberg some slack.

106 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:21:17pm

re: #67 Lidane

IMO, he goes full on douche with his last paragraph. I have been single for *mumblemumble* years, and haven’t gotten laid in *mumblemumble* years, and in that time not once have I gone stark raving barbarian on anyone or anything.

He does not state it outright, but I am pretty sure I know what kind of carrot/stick he is using to lead the reader to the conclusion he wants, as I have heard the bogus argument many times over.

Woman civilizes Man —-> Marriage civilizes Man —-> Religious Institutions civilize Man —-> No civilized society without venerated Religious Institutions —-> My religion is the only one holding society together and preventing it from collapsing into barbarous anarchy.

107 iceweasel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:21:21pm

re: #98 Dark_Falcon

Agree DF. You know I loathe Jonah LoadPants, but thank you for linking that.

108 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:21:24pm

re: #99 Jadespring

I don’t think people who have to live under hereditary rulers are free. I don’t think monarchy, or any form of hereditary government, is a legitimate form of government.

On reason why reading fantasy requires some effort, sometimes, and why I find Pratchett such an awesome writer.

109 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:21:49pm

re: #82 Dark_Falcon

Many of them were, but not all. And Christianity is tightly woven into America’s history and culture. That does not, however, justify theocracy or revisionist history.

Exactly! To say it does is horse shit.

110 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:21:52pm

re: #93 avanti

Has Beck read anything by Tom Paine on religion ?

Beck is not listening to you. LALALALALALA.

111 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:22:03pm

re: #103 austin_blue

And well you should! JFK had to defend himself continuously against the charge in 1960, that he was a tool of Rome.

Good history question:

Who was the first Republican to win a Texas majority of the Presidential Vote after the Civil War?

Don’t wiki or Google, take a guess!

I’m going to go with Herbert Hoover.

112 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:22:16pm

re: #74 Dark_Falcon

how so?

See my first paragraph in #106.

113 iceweasel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:23:16pm

re: #97 Lidane

To be fair, it’s the best Jonah can do under the circumstances. He’s finding himself in agreement with “professional feminists” about something. I’m guessing the cognitive dissonance of that triggered that paragraph.

What exactly is a ‘professional feminist’, I wonder…?

You know how it is. First your girlfriend wants to try a little feminism once, maybe at a party or something, and then it’s supposed to be only on the weekends…

114 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:23:24pm

re: #106 Slumbering Behemoth

I wasn’t connecting any dots on why he might be making that flawed argument at the end, but that is depressingly likely the reason why he was making that twist of logic.

115 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:23:54pm

re: #108 Obdicut

I don’t think people who have to live under hereditary rulers are free. I don’t think monarchy, or any form of hereditary government, is a legitimate form of government.

I support the monarchy as long as I can be a baron.

Didja ever notice how all the folks who tap into their “past lives” were always aristocrats and never peons?

116 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:23:54pm

re: #98 Dark_Falcon

Yes, but then the images come to mind of the Gazan mothers proudly sending their babies to blow themselves up for the greater glory of Allah.
*spit*

117 Jadespring  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:24:08pm

re: #87 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, the Iroquois had their league. How were leaders for that chosen?


In short. Haudensaunee are clan based. The Royaneers (Chiefs) are chosen through their respective clans through the Clan Mothers. The Chiefs sit on the Peace Council and each of their clan mothers sit behind them. Woman have the power to remove the Chiefs if they weren’t doing their job in respecting the wishes of the clan.

118 freetoken  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:24:12pm

America, 2010:

Prom cancelled over lesbian demand

A school in Mississippi has called off the annual senior dance after a lesbian student demanded she be allowed to bring her girlfriend.

The American Civil Liberties Union had demanded that the Itawamba County school district allow 18-year-old Constance McMillen to attend the prom with her date.

A school board statement Wednesday announced the district wouldn’t host the April 2 prom at Itawamba County Agricultural High School.

McMillen wanted to escort her girlfriend, who is also a student. McMillen also was denied permission to wear a tuxedo.

A school district policy requires that dates be of the opposite sex.

119 Four More Tears  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:24:20pm

re: #108 Obdicut

I don’t think people who have to live under hereditary rulers are free. I don’t think monarchy, or any form of hereditary government, is a legitimate form of government.

On reason why reading fantasy requires some effort, sometimes, and why I find Pratchett such an awesome writer.

Wait, why does that fantasy hard for you to read?

120 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:24:23pm

re: #104 austin_blue

Yes, but they ran the show.

Well, eventually, yes. The ‘descendents’ looked to Jefferson.

(And now all I can think of is a riff of Jon Stewart’s about how there was some talk of putting a height requirement for the President into the Constitution, the debate on which mostly consisted of Jefferson waving a yardstick over Madison’s head and shouting “You must be this tall to be the president.”)

121 avanti  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:24:37pm

re: #110 SanFranciscoZionist

Beck is not listening to you. LALALALALALA.

Maybe he’ll follow this link and at least read him.

Paine.

122 Lidane  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:24:44pm

re: #106 Slumbering Behemoth

His last paragraph is completely retarded and goes against the point he’s making in the previous one, as DF pointed out. I agree with that.

Consider the source, though. The guy’s normally an insufferable douche. This time, he’s an insufferable douche who found himself agreeing with a bunch of feminists about something. If he’d let his article stand on the second-to-last paragraph heads all over the internet would have exploded. He needed to have a douche moment at the end to make up for almost being a decent human being for once.

123 freetoken  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:24:53pm

Frankly, any HS prom with lesbians will draw the young guys like nothing else, IMO.

124 prairiefire  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:24:58pm

re: #98 Dark_Falcon

I like that last point. I think I’ll fall over now./

125 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:24:59pm

re: #93 avanti

Has Beck read anything by Tom Paine on religion ?

Beck fuckin’ stole a Tom Paine title for his own. Of course he didn’t read it first.

126 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:25:08pm

re: #100 Chaplain

Both sides are trying to re-write history. Fox news is just the latest of a long line of both secular and Christian arm-chair historians.

I grew up in, horror of horrors, a Fundamentalist Christian school and was taught about how “Christian” the founding fathers were. I grew up and learned some critical thinking skills later in life and I now know these men weren’t the fundamentalist Christians my text books made them out to be but they weren’t dyed in the wool secularists either (well maybe Ben Franklin, who loved the ladies, and Thomas Jefferson, who also loved the ladies were secularists). I don’t know what any of these men believed in their heart of hearts, no one can know that except them. These great men died a long time ago and what they did or didn’t believe is between them and whatever God they did or did not believe in and should have no relevance on the battles (metaphorically speaking of course) that are being fought for this nation’s identity.

Oh, and for what it is worth, I would be weary cheering on the likes of Rev. Eric Williams. For a man that spends a lot of time decrying the role of “Christian” organizations in American politics, he is never far from a political controversy. That does not excuse the actions of the ADF or “the family”. If they violate the IRS rules (Section 501(c)(3)) then their tax-exempt status should be revoked. “Them’s the rules!”

You know one thing about the founding fathers beyond a shadow of a doubt: they understood the very real dangers of a state based on religion, and deliberately designed the Constitution of the United States to avoid the nightmare they had so recently escaped.

And now the American religious right is working to undo it.

127 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:25:10pm

re: #111 Dark_Falcon

I’m going to go with Herbert Hoover.

Ding ding ding ding!

Ran against Al Smith, a Catholic, Papist mackerel snapper.

Texans had voted against R’s for over 60 years, but they just couldn’t pull the lever for a Mary Worshipper.

128 Baboon Cheeks  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:25:12pm

re: #93 avanti

Has Beck read anything by Tom Paine on religion ?

No idea. You would think he hadn’t but the scary thing is it’s possible he has. One thing Beck showed us with his crazy ranting at CPAC about “The New Colossus” was that he can understand words…differently to normal folks.

129 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:25:49pm

re: #115 Cato the Elder

Except Patton— don’t believe Bradley’s lies. Patton didn’t think he was Hannibal, just a centurion with Hannibal. Centurions are peon-y enough, especially since it would be a demotion for Patton.

130 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:26:22pm

re: #18 Charles

Interesting. Looks like Michelle may have been bumped by a “panel discussion” talking about how wonderful the tea parties are.

(Just got back from doing some stuff, so this may be an old question)

Is it possible that Malkin segment was aborted because of this thread?

131 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:26:39pm

re: #119 JasonA

Most fantasy stories have the ‘good’ guys being royalty, who I would happily mount a revolution against on the sole basis that they think they have the right to rule the country because of who their parents are.

132 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:27:32pm

re: #118 freetoken

America, 2010:

Prom cancelled over lesbian demand

Equal Protection Under The Law.

An intrinsic part of the Social Contract.

{{sigh}}

So freakin’ stupid in the long run.

133 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:27:42pm

re: #106 Slumbering Behemoth

IMO, he goes full on douche with his last paragraph. I have been single for *mumblemumble* years, and haven’t gotten laid in *mumblemumble* years, and in that time not once have I gone stark raving barbarian on anyone or anything.

He does not state it outright, but I am pretty sure I know what kind of carrot/stick he is using to lead the reader to the conclusion he wants, as I have heard the bogus argument many times over.

Woman civilizes Man —-> Marriage civilizes Man —-> Religious Institutions civilize Man —-> No civilized society without venerated Religious Institutions —-> My religion is the only one holding society together and preventing it from collapsing into barbarous anarchy.

Also, people who use this sort of language are lying. They use a fake language of female supremacy, (“women are better, a civilizing influence, etc”) but they also tend to insist that men must continue to hold most of the influence over such things as war and the arts, because if women are allowed to run them, the society will become ‘effeminate’, which is very bad indeed. They also reserve the right to announce which women are not feminine enough, femininity being closely tied to accepting traditional societal roles, to whatever extent the pundit deems fittin’.

I’m not phrasing this well, but you get the idea.

134 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:27:47pm

re: #98 Dark_Falcon

He also make a good point here:

If women were seen as a religious or racial minority, this would be glaringly obvious. Imagine if a white country refused to let blacks learn to read, never mind go to school or even go outside. I don’t know a social conservative — and I know many — who doesn’t agree with radical feminists when it comes to recognizing the barbarity of female circumcision, wife-burning, breast-ironing, and the rest.

135 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:28:12pm

re: #108 Obdicut

I don’t think people who have to live under hereditary rulers are free. I don’t think monarchy, or any form of hereditary government, is a legitimate form of government.

On reason why reading fantasy requires some effort, sometimes, and why I find Pratchett such an awesome writer.

Check out Diana Wynne Jones’ Tough Guide to Fantasyland.

136 avanti  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:28:41pm

re: #130 Walter L. Newton

(Just got back from doing some stuff, so this may be an old question)

Is it possible that Malkin segment was aborted because of this thread?

Not likely, but I recall Beck mentioning being stalked by a jazz artist, so they might be reading.

137 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:28:46pm

re: #135 SanFranciscoZionist

Never heard of it. Thanks!

138 Four More Tears  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:29:14pm

re: #131 Obdicut

Most fantasy stories have the ‘good’ guys being royalty, who I would happily mount a revolution against on the sole basis that they think they have the right to rule the country because of who their parents are.

But, but… most subjects, and especially the Lords and nobles, also think that they have the right to rule the country. Religion helps that along… (see ancient Egypt, Japan, England, etc.)

139 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:29:22pm

re: #136 avanti

Hey Avanti— is it really a serious, serious breach of Navy protocol to crawl up to an occupied bunk? I’d figure it’d happen a lot.

140 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:29:42pm

re: #118 freetoken

America, 2010:

Prom cancelled over lesbian demand

That’s dumb. I went to my BFF’s senior prom as her date because she broke up with her boyfriend after they bought the tickets.

No one said a word.

What eejits.

141 Jadespring  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:29:44pm

re: #108 Obdicut

I don’t think people who have to live under hereditary rulers are free. I don’t think monarchy, or any form of hereditary government, is a legitimate form of government.

On reason why reading fantasy requires some effort, sometimes, and why I find Pratchett such an awesome writer.


It wasn’t necessarily the same as ‘hereditary’ or monarchy as compared to a european model. ‘Hereditary’ doesn’t/didn’t always mean by blood either.

142 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:30:00pm

re: #100 Chaplain

Oh, and for what it is worth, I would be weary wary cheering on the likes of Rev. Eric Williams.

I’m weary of this solecism. Twice in two threads!

143 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:30:23pm

re: #108 Obdicut

I don’t think people who have to live under hereditary rulers are free. I don’t think monarchy, or any form of hereditary government, is a legitimate form of government.

On reason why reading fantasy requires some effort, sometimes, and why I find Pratchett such an awesome writer.

Enjoy him while you can. he has early onset dementia.

I’m shattered. Discworld is a brilliant opportunity to gig our own.

144 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:30:31pm

re: #119 JasonA

Wait, why does that fantasy hard for you to read?

I’ll guess—the tendency of fantasy writers to posit TOTALLY egalitarian societies with WONDERFUL hereditary aristocracies?

145 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:30:33pm

re: #138 JasonA

I know. I’d still want to try to start a revolution. I’d almost certainly fail at it, because I have no fucking clue how to start a revolution.

146 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:31:11pm

re: #116 Spare O’Lake

Yes, but then the images come to mind of the Gazan mothers proudly sending their babies to blow themselves up for the greater glory of Allah.
*spit*

And this too:

Jihad Jane

147 Four More Tears  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:31:16pm

re: #145 Obdicut

I know. I’d still want to try to start a revolution. I’d almost certainly fail at it, because I have no fucking clue how to start a revolution.

Well, I’m sure you’d serve as a fine example to everyone else :D

148 austin_blue  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:31:32pm

Good night all! Sweet dreams. Off to read Neil Gaiman and an early bedtime. Early day tomorrow.

149 freetoken  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:31:52pm

NYT on today’s TX SBOE shenanigans:

Texas Conservatives Seek Deeper Stamp on Texts

Even as a panel of educators laid out a vision Wednesday for national standards for public schools, the Texas school board was going in a different direction, holding hearings on changes to its social studies curriculum that would portray conservatives in a more positive light, emphasize the role of Christianity in American history and include Republican political philosophies in textbooks.

[…]

“There is a bias,” said Don McLeroy, a dentist from College Station who heads up the board’s conservative faction. “I think the left has a real problem seeing their own bias.”

[…]

References to Ralph Nader and Ross Perot are proposed to be removed, while Stonewall Jackson, the Confederate general, is to be listed as a role model for effective leadership, and the ideas in Jefferson Davis’s inaugural address are to be laid side by side with Abraham Lincoln’s speeches.

Early in the hearing on Wednesday, Mr. McLeroy and other conservatives on the board made it clear they would offer still more planks to highlight what they see as the Christian roots of the Constitution and other founding documents.

“To deny the Judeo-Christian values of our founding fathers is just a lie to our kids,” said Ken Mercer, a San Antonio Republican.

[…]

One man asserted that the Tea Party movement should be included in the textbooks.

150 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:31:54pm

re: #129 Obdicut

Except Patton— don’t believe Bradley’s lies. Patton didn’t think he was Hannibal, just a centurion with Hannibal. Centurions are peon-y enough, especially since it would be a demotion for Patton.

I like the old Jewish history teacher in Boston Public who thinks he’s the reincarnation of Washington, and delivers his lectures about him in the first person.

151 Four More Tears  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:32:02pm

re: #145 Obdicut

(Notice, it did take a long time for this democracy thing to really catch on.)

152 avanti  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:32:06pm

re: #139 Obdicut

Hey Avanti— is it really a serious, serious breach of Navy protocol to crawl up to an occupied bunk? I’d figure it’d happen a lot.

I never did it, nor had it happen to me, but I recall a drunk sailor peeing on a shipmate in his bunk because he thought he was in the head. That did not go over well as I recall.

153 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:32:32pm

re: #131 Obdicut

Most fantasy stories have the ‘good’ guys being royalty, who I would happily mount a revolution against on the sole basis that they think they have the right to rule the country because of who their parents are.

Have you read Lloyd Alexander’s Westmark books? I thought they dealt with that rather better than most.

154 Four More Tears  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:32:41pm

re: #152 avanti

I never did it, nor had it happen to me, but I recall a drunk sailor peeing on a shipmate in his bunk because he thought he was in the head. That did not go over well as I recall.

That happened to a friend of mine in college once.

155 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:32:45pm

re: #127 austin_blue

Ding ding ding ding!

Ran against Al Smith, a Catholic, Papist mackerel snapper.

Texans had voted against R’s for over 60 years, but they just couldn’t pull the lever for a Mary Worshipper.

If you like my answer, put a ding on it.

/ding whore ;)

156 Four More Tears  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:33:35pm

re: #135 SanFranciscoZionist

Check out Diana Wynne Jones’ Tough Guide to Fantasyland.

Thanks. Just put that on my Amazon wish list.

157 iceweasel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:33:38pm

re: #133 SanFranciscoZionist

Also, people who use this sort of language are lying. They use a fake language of female supremacy, (“women are better, a civilizing influence, etc”) but they also tend to insist that men must continue to hold most of the influence over such things as war and the arts, because if women are allowed to run them, the society will become ‘effeminate’, which is very bad indeed. They also reserve the right to announce which women are not feminine enough, femininity being closely tied to accepting traditional societal roles, to whatever extent the pundit deems fittin’.

I’m not phrasing this well, but you get the idea.

Actually, that’s exactly what JS Mill was talking about in the Subjection of Women in 1861— he pointed to the use of fake pious arguments about women being “the Angel in the House”, morally superior, the shining light that guides men so sweetly— all as an excuse for keeping them out of politics and the public square. They needed to keep their sweet superior moral selves unsullied by the hideousness of politics, or voting, or engaging in public life.

Women! Know Your Limiits!
Youtube Video

Anyway, such arguments have a long history as a means of keeping women down while seeming to flatter them. It all furthers the notion that women are “other”.

158 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:34:02pm

re: #137 Obdicut

Never heard of it. Thanks!

It’s a sort of dictionary, meant for your use while you traverse the realms of Fantasyland. It contains quite a bit of excellent commentary on some of the more persistent failings of fantasy fiction.

159 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:34:14pm

re: #126 Charles

You know one thing about the founding fathers beyond a shadow of a doubt: they understood the very real dangers of a state based on religion, and deliberately designed the Constitution of the United States to avoid the nightmare they had so recently escaped.

And now the American religious right is working to undo it.

You are correct, but it’s not as if this is something that just began after the last election. The last century was replete with examples of the obsessive struggles between the ultra-religious folks and the moderates.

160 solomonpanting  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:34:41pm

re: #140 SanFranciscoZionist

That’s dumb. I went to my BFF’s senior prom as her date because she broke up with her boyfriend after they bought the tickets.

No one said a word.

What eejits.

Which one of you wore the tux?

161 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:34:50pm

re: #114 Obdicut

I wasn’t connecting any dots on why he might be making that flawed argument at the end, but that is depressingly likely the reason why he was making that twist of logic.

The only reason I connect dots that way is because I have heard that argument repeated ad nauseum in certain circles.

I’ve never been married, never had children. The two keystone events that some will have you believe will turn barbaric, careless men into civilized, responsible adults. Yet I have never gone apeshit on anyone nor anything, and have seemed to keep myself out of serious trouble my entire adult life. And I am by no means exceptional. I’m just a regular, everyday normal guy.

162 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:35:15pm

re: #141 Jadespring

I’m reasonably well-versed in the non-Iroquois Northeastern tribes, and the best you could say about them was that they tended towards hereditary oligarchy— the leaders chose the next leaders. They still tended to be male-dominated, unlike the Iroquois, and have unequal rights between the genders.

163 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:35:33pm

re: #139 Obdicut

Hey Avanti— is it really a serious, serious breach of Navy protocol to crawl up to an occupied bunk? I’d figure it’d happen a lot.

I think it’s what you do when you realize the bunk is occupied that makes the difference.

“Sorry, wrong rack,” is OK.

“Dude, get up, I get the bunk now,” is OK.

“Mmmm. This is nice. Let’s just lie here and snorkel, I mean snuggle…wait, come back…” is NOT OK.

164 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:35:50pm

re: #153 SanFranciscoZionist

Nope. I’ll have to write these down.

165 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:36:02pm

re: #157 iceweasel

Actually, that’s exactly what JS Mill was talking about in the Subjection of Women in 1861— he pointed to the use of fake pious arguments about women being “the Angel in the House”, morally superior, the shining light that guides men so sweetly— all as an excuse for keeping them out of politics and the public square. They needed to keep their sweet superior moral selves unsullied by the hideousness of politics, or voting, or engaging in public life.

Women! Know Your Limiits!

[Video]Anyway, such arguments have a long history as a means of keeping women down while seeming to flatter them. It all furthers the notion that women are “other”.

Quite Concur.

166 reine.de.tout  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:36:41pm

re: #140 SanFranciscoZionist

That’s dumb. I went to my BFF’s senior prom as her date because she broke up with her boyfriend after they bought the tickets.

No one said a word.

What eejits.

Very common at my daughter’s school for girls to go to dances together if they don’t have dates.

167 Four More Tears  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:37:13pm

re: #144 SanFranciscoZionist

I’ll guess—the tendency of fantasy writers to posit TOTALLY egalitarian societies with WONDERFUL hereditary aristocracies?

Hm. Maybe I’ve skipped most of those books. George RR Martin doesn’t do that. Abercrombie or Erikson, either. Hell, even Tolkien showed a couple of seriously corrupted monarchies. *shrug*

168 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:38:12pm

re: #160 solomonpanting

Which one of you wore the tux?

We were both in dresses. I had something really fetching with black ruffles and these hilarious long flashy earrings.

It was an extremely memorable evening, but not because my date was a girl.

169 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:39:23pm

re: #143 austin_blue

You know the form of dementia he has attacks his non-thinking parts first, right? He’ll lose physical control of his body, but his mind is going to remain sharper than any other form of alzheimers would leave it.

Cruel, but means we get more books.

Have you read Nation? I seriously think it’s going to produce huge crops of atheists in the next generations. It’s really, really good.

170 Jadespring  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:40:12pm

re: #162 Obdicut

I’m reasonably well-versed in the non-Iroquois Northeastern tribes, and the best you could say about them was that they tended towards hereditary oligarchy— the leaders chose the next leaders. They still tended to be male-dominated, unlike the Iroquois, and have unequal rights between the genders.

Doesn’t mean they weren’t ‘free’. Maybe my concept of free has more to do with sovereignty then what you’re talking about.

171 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:40:17pm

re: #133 SanFranciscoZionist

Phrased well enough for me to understand your point. It is a “wanting to have your cake and eat it too” brand of hypocrisy in the thinking you describe.

172 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:40:18pm

re: #167 JasonA

Guy Gavriel Kay is guilty of it, as is C.S. Lewis, who includes some divine right of kings as well and badly tarnishes his credibility, if you ask me.

173 Jerk  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:40:22pm

Again, the Jefferson Bible: the story of Jesus without the extraneous crap. He used a RAZOR on the BIBLE.

174 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:41:17pm

re: #167 JasonA

Hm. Maybe I’ve skipped most of those books. George RR Martin doesn’t do that. Abercrombie or Erikson, either. Hell, even Tolkien showed a couple of seriously corrupted monarchies. *shrug*

Read some Mercedes Lackey or Patricia Keneally if you want to see the corruption at its darkest and silliest.

(Actually, The Copper Crown is a grand read, and I have enjoyed many of Lackey’s pieces. But there’s some recurrent…issues…)

175 Four More Tears  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:42:22pm

re: #172 Obdicut

Guy Gavriel Kay is guilty of it, as is C.S. Lewis, who includes some divine right of kings as well and badly tarnishes his credibility, if you ask me.

Ah. I haven’t touched Kay yet. I’ve been told I should read Lions of something something, so I’ll get to that someday. And Lewis… feh. Never liked him much, anyway.

176 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:42:26pm

re: #173 Jerk

Again, the Jefferson Bible: the story of Jesus without the extraneous crap. He used a RAZOR on the BIBLE.

I did think of him in that Firefly scene when Book discovers River trying to ‘fix’ his Bible.

177 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:42:30pm

re: #170 Jadespring

Yeah, I think it’s just a semantic problem. For me, free has to do with political systems. I’m not trying to say your concept of ‘free’ is wrong or anything. I mean in the context of ‘political freedom’ only.

178 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:42:50pm

Matt Drudge’s Banner picture tonight is just not right.

179 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:43:26pm

Just to remind you folks, tea parties really can be wonderful.

There was a table set out under a tree in front of the house, and the March Hare and the Hatter were having tea at it: a Dormouse was sitting between them, fast asleep, and the other two were using it as a cushion, resting their elbows on it, and talking over its head. “Very uncomfortable for the Dormouse,” thought Alice; “only as it’s asleep, I suppose it doesn’t mind.”

The table was a large one, but the three were all crowded together at one corner of it. “No room! No room!” they cried out when they saw Alice coming.

“There’s plenty of room!” said Alice indignantly, and she sat down in a large arm-chair at one end of the table.

“Have some wine,” the March Hare said in an encouraging tone.

Alice looked all round the table, but there was nothing on it but tea. “I don’t see any wine,” she remarked.

“There isn’t any,” said the March Hare.

“Then it wasn’t very civil of you to offer it,” said Alice, angrily.

“It wasn’t very civil of you to sit down without being invited,” said the March Hare.

“I didn’t know it was your table,” said Alice: “it’s laid for a great many more than three.”

“Your hair wants cutting,” said the Hatter. He had been looking at Alice for some time with great curiosity, and this was his first speech.

“You should learn not to make personal remarks,” Alice said with some severity: “it’s very rude.”

The Hatter opened his eyes very wide on hearing this; but all he said was, “Why is a raven like a writing-desk?”

“Come, we shall have some fun now!” thought Alice. “I’m glad they’ve begun asking riddles—I believe I can guess that,” she added, aloud.

“Do you mean that you think you can find out the answer to it?” said the March Hare.

“Exactly so,” said Alice.

“Then you should say what you mean,” the March Hare went on.

“I do,” Alice hastily replied; “at least—at least I mean what I say—that’s the same thing, you know.”

“Not the same thing a bit!” said the Hatter. “Why, you might just as well say that ’I see what I eat’ is the same thing as ’I eat what I see’!”

“You might just as well say,” added the March Hare, “that ’I like what I get’ is the same thing as ’I get what I like’!”

“You might just as well say,” added the Dormouse, which seemed to be talking in its sleep, “that ’I breathe when I sleep’ is the same thing as ’I sleep when I breathe’!”

“It is the same thing with you,” said the Hatter, and here the conversation dropped, and the party sat silent for a minute, while Alice thought over all she could remember about ravens and writing-desks, which wasn’t much.

The Hatter was the first to break the silence. “What day of the month is it?” he said, turning to Alice: he had taken his watch out of his pocket, and was looking at it uneasily, shaking it every now and then, and holding it to his ear.

Alice considered a little, and then said, “The fourth.”

“Two days wrong!” sighed the Hatter. “I told you butter wouldn’t suit the works!” he added, looking angrily at the March Hare.

“It was the best butter,” the March Hare meekly replied.

“Yes, but some crumbs must have got in as well,” the Hatter grumbled: “you shouldn’t have put it in with the bread-knife.”

The March Hare took the watch and looked at it gloomily: then he dipped it into his cup of tea, and looked at it again: but he could think of nothing better to say than his first remark, “It was the best butter, you know.”

180 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:44:00pm

re: #175 JasonA

Lions was actually my least favorite. I liked Song for Arbonne the best because it was the most self-consciously decorative. He’s a really lush writer, and I like his writing, even though he’s telling a very, well— none of the plot actually matters, you know? It’s all just a vehicle to show off his characters. He really cares about characters.

He is kinda goopy at times, though.

181 Croc-Wearing Authoritarian  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:44:19pm

re: #50 Obdicut

Actually, they let most of the citizens leave Providence before they burnt it.

Anne Hutchinson and her family were killed.

182 Four More Tears  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:44:21pm

re: #178 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Matt Drudge’s Banner picture tonight is just not right.

I had to get rid of a virus on my mom’s laptop two nights ago after she visited it.

183 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:44:25pm

re: #178 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Matt Drudge’s Banner picture tonight is just not right.

Isn’t that Gloria Swanson from Sunset Bvld?

184 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:44:40pm

re: #173 Jerk

Again, the Jefferson Bible: the story of Jesus without the extraneous crap. He used a RAZOR on the BIBLE.

I don’t care for that much. Editing the Bible for content like that is not some I approve of. It’s completely legal, but I don’t like it.

185 Carlos Dangler  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:45:08pm

re: #140 SanFranciscoZionist

That’s dumb. I went to my BFF’s senior prom as her date because she broke up with her boyfriend after they bought the tickets.

No one said a word.

What eejits.

And the school/school board is setting this girl up as the bad guy in all of this, because she asserted her rights and they knew the ACLU was probably gonna win. The money quote from the article is:

The district’s statement never mentioned McMillen’s request. But officials said the change was made due to recent distractions. District officials say they hope private citizens will host a prom.

Gutless and disgusting…

186 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:45:10pm

re: #166 reine.de.tout

Very common at my daughter’s school for girls to go to dances together if they don’t have dates.

The liberal homeschooling family I’ve mentioned a couple of times had one of their sons come out as gay. He went to the high school prom with his boyfriend, although I don’t know how much flak he caught over it. This was in south Georgia.

187 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:45:14pm

Never mind all the theocracy.

RACHEL FRIKKIN MADDOW PEOPLE!!!

188 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:45:36pm

re: #178 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Matt Drudge’s Banner picture tonight is just not right.

Yikes!

189 Kruk  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:45:44pm

re: #176 SanFranciscoZionist

I did think of him in that Firefly scene when Book discovers River trying to ‘fix’ his Bible.

Was it this Bible?

“On the night of their betrothal, the wife shall open to the man as the furrow to the plow and he shall work in her, in and again till she bring him to his full and rest him then upon the sweat of her breast.”

190 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:45:49pm

re: #175 JasonA

Ah. I haven’t touched Kay yet. I’ve been told I should read Lions of something something, so I’ll get to that someday. And Lewis… feh. Never liked him much, anyway.

The Lions of…al-Rhasul? Something like that. I read that one. I dunno, if you’re going to set a novel in al-Andalus, maybe you should just go ahead and DO THAT.

I liked it, but never really wanted to read another of his books. Some of my friends love them, though, and find them really compelling, satisfying reading. I’d read one or two, just to see if it’s something you like.

I also recommend, as long as we’re doing random book recommendations, A.A. Attanasio’s Kingdom of the Grail. It’s remarkable.

And of course, anything by Judith Merkle Riley. She’s sort of on the cusp between historical and fantasy. More historical with a supernatural touch. Very good.

191 Chaplain  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:45:49pm

re: #126 Charles

100% Agreed.
The founders were tolerant of religion but ABSOLUTELY did not want it to have any influence on how this country and it’s people were governed.

“In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot … they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose.”
- Thomas Jefferson to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

“Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst.”
- Benjamin Franklin

“Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?”
-John Adams letter to Thomas Jefferson

But my point (and the point of the article I linked) was that both sides try to distort the truth about these men. This is not an excuse for Fox News or any one else but merely a fact. Fox is the latest in a long line of historians with big erasers who want to bend the past to fit their agenda.

192 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:46:12pm

re: #184 Dark_Falcon

I don’t care for that much. Editing the Bible for content like that is not some I approve of. It’s completely legal, but I don’t like it.

It started in the first century AD and it’s been going on ever since, however.

193 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:46:32pm

re: #181 Alouette

As were the citizens of some other cities and towns— but the relations between the people there and the Indians were much better than the other colonies enjoyed, so Rhode Island kind of gets the ‘least massacred’ award.

And it wasn’t like the colonists weren’t attacking the Indians, too. It was in the context of a war.

194 Four More Tears  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:46:55pm

re: #180 Obdicut

Heh. I’ve heard a lot of different opinions on where to start with him. Maybe I’ll just go with Tigana and be done with it :)

Then again, I’ve heard him criticized for having characters who are completely perfect ubermen/women, so maybe I’ll just pass entirely. Too many other things I actually want to read right now. Sometimes I envy your SpeedRacer reading skillz.

195 Jadespring  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:47:01pm

re: #177 Obdicut

Yeah, I think it’s just a semantic problem. For me, free has to do with political systems. I’m not trying to say your concept of ‘free’ is wrong or anything. I mean in the context of ‘political freedom’ only.

Okay I think you’re talking about ‘freedom’ on an individual level which is a fair observation whereas I was thinking you were commenting on the nation as an collective entity level. They were ‘free and sovereign’ in that regard.

196 Charles Johnson  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:47:29pm

Looks like Malkin’s main point, which she didn’t get to actually discuss on Hannity’s show (more’s the pity), was that she really hates fuzzy math.

Ahem.

197 Chaplain  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:47:33pm

re: #142 Cato the Elder

I’m weary of this solecism. Twice in two threads!

lol! I apologize for my literary blunder!

198 Croc-Wearing Authoritarian  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:47:44pm

Rush makes racist crack about Gov. Patterson

/”just satire”

199 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:47:58pm

re: #192 Cato the Elder

It started in the first century AD and it’s been going on ever since, however.

LOL…

200 avanti  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:48:10pm

re: #173 Jerk

Again, the Jefferson Bible: the story of Jesus without the extraneous crap. He used a RAZOR on the BIBLE.

43 pages, total:


“I have performed the operation for my own use,” he continued, “by cutting verse by verse out of the printed book, and arranging the matter, which is evidently his and which is as easily distinguished as diamonds in a dunghill.”

201 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:48:15pm

re: #194 JasonA

Song for Arbonne is really worth reading, in my opinion. The rest you can take or leave, but his characters in that one are conflicted as hell, most of the time. They’re all Tolkein-level ubermen, sure, but they’re conflicted and humiliated on occasion.

202 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:48:22pm

re: #191 Chaplain

Now I’m weary of you.

203 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:48:25pm

re: #184 Dark_Falcon

I don’t care for that much. Editing the Bible for content like that is not some I approve of. It’s completely legal, but I don’t like it.

It’s cheating, is what it is. Simply believing that all those chronicles, legends, letters, poems and prophecies belong together between the same book covers is itself an act of faith. If you’re going to embrace it, embrace the whole thing, jagged edges and all, psychic costs be damned.

204 Kruk  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:48:40pm

re: #192 Cato the Elder

It started in the first century AD and it’s been going on ever since, however.

If I understand correctly, the question of which Gospels were canon and which were apocrypha was decided by commitee, wasn’t it?

205 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:48:41pm

re: #195 Jadespring

OH! Absolutely, absolutely. My apologies, yes, they were a free and sovereign tribe.

206 Four More Tears  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:48:57pm

re: #198 Alouette

Rush makes racist crack about Gov. Patterson

/”just satire”

Sweet zombie Jesus…

207 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:48:58pm

re: #191 Chaplain

100% Agreed.
The founders were tolerant of religion but ABSOLUTELY did not want it to have any influence on how this country and it’s people were governed.

“In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot … they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose.”
- Thomas Jefferson to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

“Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst.”
- Benjamin Franklin

“Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?”
-John Adams letter to Thomas Jefferson

But my point (and the point of the article I linked) was that both sides try to distort the truth about these men. This is not an excuse for Fox News or any one else but merely a fact. Fox is the latest in a long line of historians with big erasers who want to bend the past to fit their agenda.

I’d say they knew it would have influence, but wanted to make sure any influence would not be controlling. Thus the prohibition of the establishment of religion.

208 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:49:37pm

re: #204 Kruk

If I understand correctly, the question of which Gospels were canon and which were apocrypha was decided by commitee, wasn’t it?

Yes, at the Council of Nicea.

209 Jadespring  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:50:03pm

re: #205 Obdicut

OH! Absolutely, absolutely. My apologies, yes, they were a free and sovereign tribe.

Hee. Glad I got that cleared up. Hope you can understand my first ‘eh what?” reaction. :D

210 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:50:13pm

re: #189 Kruk

Was it this Bible?

“On the night of their betrothal, the wife shall open to the man as the furrow to the plow and he shall work in her, in and again till she bring him to his full and rest him then upon the sweat of her breast.”

I think those people are just weird.

I always assumed Book carried a REAL Bible.

Harrumph.

“This gun has a name. I call her Vera.”

211 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:50:31pm

re: #204 Kruk

If I understand correctly, the question of which Gospels were canon and which were apocrypha was decided by commitee, wasn’t it?

Marcion was the first to try to fix the canon in 144 C.E.

ntcanon.org

212 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:50:39pm

re: #204 Kruk

If I understand correctly, the question of which Gospels were canon and which were apocrypha was decided by commitee, wasn’t it?

One legend has it that it was decided by miracle.

All the books were placed in front of the altar. Those that were true flew up and landed on top of it.

213 Four More Tears  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:50:42pm

re: #201 Obdicut

Song for Arbonne is really worth reading, in my opinion. The rest you can take or leave, but his characters in that one are conflicted as hell, most of the time. They’re all Tolkein-level ubermen, sure, but they’re conflicted and humiliated on occasion.

Funny thing about Tolkien is that most of his characters were supermen except for the two most important ones. Always loved that.

214 Killgore Trout  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:50:51pm

re: #196 Charles

Looks like Malkin’s main point, which she didn’t get to actually discuss on Hannity’s show (more’s the pity), was that she really hates fuzzy math.

Ahem.

If she were better educated she’s understand the meaning of Fuzzy mathematics.

215 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:51:57pm

The wings of pride carry us over seven icy abysses. But there is something just as important as developing our own individualities, and that is standing among the lowly and the ignorant, rubbing shoulders with them, pressing our fingers, the fingers of the elect, to the same stone floor on which others have just walked in street-stained shoes—yes, and pressing our wise foreheads to it. … One of the greatest spiritual accomplishments is knowing how to humble yourself. To remind yourself that for all your gifts and for all your prowess you are only God’s servant, no whit superior to others. No ethical system is a substitute for this accomplishment—the practice of humility.
—“Father Severyan” in Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn’s November 1916

216 freetoken  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:52:18pm

re: #196 Charles

Exploiting math-fear to the fullest.

This is the crowd that buys the KUSI-weatherman’s exploitation of the inability of people to handle the idea that small numbers really can matter.

217 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:52:20pm

re: #208 Dark_Falcon

Yes, at the Council of Nicea.

No… Marcion was the first to try to fix the canon in 144 C.E.

[Link: ntcanon.org…]

And after Marcion, there were a number of efforts to come up with a defined canon. There were many “new” books found during the 100-200 C.E time period.

The Council of Nicea was the last group to fix the canon.

218 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:52:35pm

re: #212 Cato the Elder

One legend has it that it was decided by miracle.

All the books were placed in front of the altar. Those that were true flew up and landed on top of it.

That’s handy.

219 Jerk  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:53:02pm

re: #184 Dark_Falcon

I understand, and for many it would also be considered sacrilegious. However, it proves the point that at least one prominent founding father was not a radical Christian fundamentalist.

“Founding fathers hey! Founding fathers ho! Founding fathers founding fathers go go go!”

220 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:54:11pm

re: #219 Jerk

I understand, and for many it would also be considered sacrilegious. However, it proves the point that at least one prominent founding father was not a radical Christian fundamentalist.

“Founding fathers hey! Founding fathers ho! Founding fathers founding fathers go go go!”

I daresay Jefferson understood the Bible far better than many of these buffoons running around today talking about a Christian nation.

221 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:54:44pm

re: #207 Dark_Falcon

I’d say they knew it would have influence, but wanted to make sure any influence would not be controlling. Thus the prohibition of the establishment of religion.

It’s the “nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof” bit that gets ignored, too often.

222 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:56:40pm

re: #220 SanFranciscoZionist

I daresay Jefferson understood the Bible far better than many of these buffoons running around today talking about a Christian nation.

He certainly did. And that’s why he dismissed all the “miracles” in the Greek scriptures. He was well aware that the texts were full of myths and mystical thinking that had no basis in reality.

223 Chaplain  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:57:14pm

re: #202 Cato the Elder

Now I’m weary of you.

HA! You should be wary of LGF posters who, back in high school, were often weary in English Class (it was after lunch, so I have an excuse…kind of).

224 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:58:35pm

victoria.tc.ca

225 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 7:58:57pm

re: #221 The Sanity Inspector

It’s the “nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof” bit that gets ignored, too often.

Quite Concur.

226 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 8:00:05pm

re: #214 Killgore Trout

If she were better educated she’s understand the meaning of Fuzzy mathematics.

I think she’s talking about Whole Math, which has been around for more than a decade. And which I agree is useless at building up cognitive muscle. I like our school, but we supplement their school assignments with worksheets from Superkids.com & places like that. Practice, practice, practice; drill, drill, drill, all the boring old fashioned stuff for which you’d never get an Ed. degree nowadays.

227 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 8:02:55pm

re: #224 Spare O’Lake

[Link: victoria.tc.ca…]

She mentions Francis Parkman. Everyone should block out four weeks and read his history of France and England in North America. Especially with the knowledge that he went blind researching and writing it, at the end reduced to stringing wires across his tablet, and scribbling the words unseen in the courses.

228 SpaceJesus  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 8:03:01pm

if i had the technology and free time, i would build a 1000 foot robot of Thomas Paine and use it to rampage through Texas and the south without mercy

229 Kruk  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 8:03:05pm

re: #185 talon_262

Gutless and disgusting…

Not to mention old and tried. Many of the “War on Christmas/Christianity” episodes occur when some other religon or culture asks if they can also put their symbols up or have their traditions honoured. School/Parents freak at the thought their little darlings realising that other people might see G*d differently, cancel the event, and then run crying to the right wing noisemakers. Cue the attack dogs being turned loose on those who dare act as if they are an equal part of society.

230 Professor Chaos  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 8:03:48pm

re: #196 Charles

Looks like Malkin’s main point, which she didn’t get to actually discuss on Hannity’s show (more’s the pity), was that she really hates fuzzy math.

Ahem.

I’d be curious to get a copy of that book and see what’s in it.

I majored in math. I learn math concepts quickly and better than most. I also realize that some people really have a hard time with it. My sister is one of them, she hates math with a passion. A textbook that I could learn something from quite easily would be very difficult for her. People learn things differently, especially when it comes to mathematics.

Suffice to say, math education is one of an extremely long list of topics that I won’t share Michelle’s OUTRAGE!1!!11!! without seeing the goods myself.

231 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 8:05:43pm

re: #228 SpaceJesus

I feel kind of guilty giving you an upding for that, but goddamn, a thousand foot Thomas Paine gets an upding from me.

232 Chaplain  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 8:06:34pm

re: #212 Cato the Elder

One legend has it that it was decided by miracle.

All the books were placed in front of the altar. Those that were true flew up and landed on top of it.

Well, I think Cecil Adams has a slightly different account of what probably happened. :P

233 The Sanity Inspector  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 8:08:31pm

re: #228 SpaceJesus

if i had the technology and free time, i would build a 1000 foot robot of Thomas Paine and use it to rampage through Texas and the south without mercy

Did you know that he was nearly killed in France, during the Terror? A classic case of Be Careful What You Wish For, when you wish for an atheistic revolution.

My intention was to step aside from the other prisoners so that, being seen standing by myself, those nearest the table might overlook me and I might escape at the first opportunity. Already the row of prisoners was much dwindled. The killers had despatched successively the Abbe’ Gervais, secretary to the Archbishopric, the Grand Vicar of Strasbourg, that poor priest of the Hotel Dieu, the President of the Higher Council of Corsica, and forty more. It was probably almost 2 am, though I was no longer aware of the clock.

Seemingly, I was increasingly impervious to the incessant killings, and could think only of myself, though seeing all my companions slaughtered, lit by the many torches illuminating this grisly sight. …Nevertheless, I confess, in shame, that despite my imminent danger, my last moments apparently so close, I was not wholly concentrating on God, or resigned to death. Indeed, the very opposite. I did not cease schiming my escape from the terrifying massacre. Those blows from sabres, jabs from pikes, petrified me but without inspiring the piety which should inform our last hour….Sometimes the massacres were halted for the killers to hear the exhortations from other Sections, reporting on the massacres in their own prisons.
—Abbe’ de Salamon, a survivor of the September Massacres, Memoire, c.1800

234 SpaceJesus  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 8:09:14pm

re: #231 Obdicut

I feel kind of guilty giving you an upding for that, but goddamn, a thousand foot Thomas Paine gets an upding from me.


i would drive it and christopher hitchens would man the eye-ball lazer cannons

235 goddamnedfrank  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 8:16:50pm

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

-Treaty of Tripoli
signed by President John Adams and ratified by the US Senate in 1797.

That’s a pretty unambiguous position, I mean there’s not a whole lot of wiggle room in ” the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” Right? So we can probably assume that when the early US Government expressed, signed and ratified that position, they probably weren’t thinking it would be nice if some self serving pudwacks would come along over two hundred years later and misrepresent the clear and concise language they left behind.

236 Chaplain  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 8:23:39pm

re: #207 Dark_Falcon

I’d say they knew it would have influence, but wanted to make sure any influence would not be controlling. Thus the prohibition of the establishment of religion.

Well, that is splitting hairs.

In any case, their writings showed they feared organized influence (that would make a great rock band name BTW).

Someone’s personal beliefs always has an “influence” on their thoughts, prejudices and actions. That is one of the reasons why double blind tests were created :P Prejudiced testers could unknowingly (sometimes knowingly) influence the result of a test to fit their belief of its outcome.

The founding fathers had to know that a person cannot stop their personal beliefs (whether they be secular or Christian in nature) from prejudicing their actions. But, they certainly wanted to prevent any religion from influencing the government and circumventing the rule of law.

237 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 8:24:17pm

re: #118 freetoken

And of course this gives fodder to the bigots who will use this to “prove” that gays and lesbians want to destroy everything “good and just” in the world. That aside though, can you imagine the vitriol being spewed at this young woman right now?

238 Ojoe  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 8:27:10pm

Dobson, stuffy and boring, does not realize that anything presented to schoolchildren with an over-serious and sanctimonious air will be mercilessly ridiculed especially by young boys.

You should have seen the snide comments we put in our schoolbooks in the 1950s, not to mention the shiny spots we made on the pages with ear wax.

239 Ojoe  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 8:32:03pm

re: #179 Cato the Elder

Alice: But I don’t want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can’t help that. We’re all mad here. I’m mad. You’re mad.
Alice: How do you know I’m mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn’t have come here.

240 SpaceJesus  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 8:32:19pm

re: #235 goddamnedfrank

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

-Treaty of Tripoli
signed by President John Adams and ratified by the US Senate in 1797.

That’s a pretty unambiguous position, I mean there’s not a whole lot of wiggle room in ” the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” Right? So we can probably assume that when the early US Government expressed, signed and ratified that position, they probably weren’t thinking it would be nice if some self serving pudwacks would come along over two hundred years later and misrepresent the clear and concise language they left behind.

furthermore, this is the founding generation we’re talking about here. also, this treaty is (along with the consitution and every other treaty) the highest law of the land.

241 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 8:37:27pm

re: #221 The Sanity Inspector

It’s the “nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof” bit that gets ignored, too often.

How so?

242 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 8:38:19pm

re: #226 The Sanity Inspector

I think she’s talking about Whole Math, which has been around for more than a decade. And which I agree is useless at building up cognitive muscle. I like our school, but we supplement their school assignments with worksheets from Superkids.com & places like that. Practice, practice, practice; drill, drill, drill, all the boring old fashioned stuff for which you’d never get an Ed. degree nowadays.

Hilariously enough, however, you may get an after-school job at Sylvan doing the practice and drill.

243 I Am Kreniigh!  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 9:46:45pm

re: #53 researchok

I know I’m going to get flack for this but it does bear remembering that the Fox opinion shows are not news. The same criticisms of Fox opinion programming can be made of MSNBC or even CNN.

Further, even the news divisions of those networks have their share of errors and faux pas

I’m no fan of the FOX and MSNBC opinion shows. They pander to9 their chosen demographic groups and could care less. CNN leaves much to be desired in that arena as well. That said, those shows are not news.

Jon Stewart did a segment about the news/opinion divide on Fox within the past month… It basically amounted to, Fox claims that certain hours of their broadcast day are opinion, and certain hours are news. And then he showed clips from the supposed “news” hours that were (like almost everything else on Fox) totally partisan and mostly opinion.

It’s a false distinction. Fox does not have a non-opinion news division.

244 Shazam  Wed, Mar 10, 2010 11:34:04pm

It’s also important to remember that the Founding Fathers were all one like-minded group who all thought and believed the same exact things. In fact, there was virtually no fighting or arguing back then over what to do. Every bill passed with unanimity. There was only one party (Republican) because everyone got along and thought the same. They would have put “AMERICA IS A CHRISTIAN NATION AND JESUS IS OUR SAVIOR” on the top of the Constitution, but since everyone thought the same they figured it was implied. Then when Lincoln was president, a large group of anti-american immigrants formed the Democrat Party to oppose him. Everything started to go downhill from there.

///

245 Super-ego  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 6:30:25am

I want my kid to be well rounded in his knowledge and education. And principled in a core belief structure. I want a fair consensus of ideas to prevail about the history of America, meaning the negatives and positives, religious and agnostic, conservative and liberal.

Ideaologues on both sides are a detriment to this cause.


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