White Supremacist Robert Stacy McCain Back at the Washington Times

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The Southern Poverty Law Center’s Hatewatch blog has some interesting information about white supremacist blogger Robert Stacy McCain — who is apparently writing for the Washington Times again (in addition to posting articles at Pajamas Media and Hot Air).

Robert Stacy McCain, a former key Washington Times editor who has suggested that “perfectly rational people” react with “altogether natural revulsion” to interracial marriage, apparently has returned as a free-lancer to the newspaper he left in January 2008. In a “Special to The Washington Times” article published today, McCain covers a congressional race in upstate New York involving a candidate with connections to the Tea Party movement.

A casualty of the housecleaning that occurred at the Times three years ago, McCain left the paper on his own accord after managing editor Fran Coombs, with whom he was close, was terminated (Coombs had his own connections to white supremacy).

Once identified as a member of the neo-Confederate hate group League of the South, McCain’s reporting while at the Times was always controversial. As editor of the “Culture Briefs” section of the paper, McCain used excerpts from racist publications including American Renaissance magazine and the anti-immigrant hate site VDARE.com. In fact, McCain may be the only mainstream newspaper reporter to have covered four American Renaissance conferences. Twice, he offered no description at all of the group he was covering, which is devoted to race science. Once, he said it was “critical of liberal positions on race and immigration.” Only in 2004 did he note that some viewed it as racist.

Breaching journalist ethics by reporting on causes he was personally involved in, McCain regularly quoted neo-Confederate activists favorably in his stories. In 2005, stories freelanced by McCain to the website of the conservative newspaper Human Events were scrubbed after that publication’s editor, Thomas Winter, was given information by the Southern Poverty Law Center’s Intelligence Report about McCain’s racism.

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267 comments
1 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:48:41am

Just isn’t fair the way so many crazy people seem to have so little trouble finding work these days….

2 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:48:58am

Scum is easily moved from one pond to another.

3 Chaplain  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:49:02am

Yeah I found out he was writing for Hot Air… the hard way lol

4 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:49:39am

On behalf of the word “renaissance,” I object.

5 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:50:48am

re: #4 EmmmieG

On behalf of the word “renaissance,” I object.

How about they replace it with ‘respawning’? Or is that offensive to frogs?

6 jaunte  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:51:09am
Since leaving the Times, McCain has run a rather prolific and bombastic blog about politics and culture.


Heidi Beirich is too kind.

7 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:51:31am

re: #5 SanFranciscoZionist

How about they replace it with ‘respawning’? Or is that offensive to frogs?


I favor, “regression.”

8 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:51:54am

re: #5 SanFranciscoZionist

How about they replace it with ‘respawning’? Or is that offensive to frogs?

Progs.

9 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:53:13am

OT, but saw this T-shirt on a guy standing outside the local bar yesterday:

“You look like I could use a drink.”

10 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:53:26am

re: #5 SanFranciscoZionist

How about they replace it with ‘respawning’? Or is that offensive to frogs?

I think its offensive to people who play WOW.

11 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:53:28am

This openly subversive and unpatriotic gang was only founded in 1994.

League of the South at Wikipedia

The League of the South is a Southern nationalist organization, headquartered in Killen, Alabama, whose ultimate goal is “a free and independent Southern republic.”[1] The group defines the Southern United States as the states that made up the former Confederacy.[2] While political independence ranks highly among the group’s goals, it is also a religious and social movement, advocating a return to a more traditional, conservative Christian-oriented Southern culture.

Btw, “Can we question their patriotism now?”

12 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:54:17am

What the fuck. Seriously, I feel like we’re moving backwards here.

There’s also this concern-trolling about Obama being killed.

[Link: www.daybydaycartoon.com…]

13 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:54:27am

re: #1 jamesfirecat

Just isn’t fair the way so many crazy people seem to have so little trouble finding work these days…

That’s not true.

14 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:55:13am

re: #11 Shiplord Kirel

This openly subversive and unpatriotic gang was only founded in 1994.

League of the South at Wikipedia

Btw, “Can we question their patriotism now?”

I just can’t believe there’s a place actually named “Killen”….

15 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:56:29am

re: #14 jamesfirecat

I just can’t believe there’s a place actually named “Killen”…

That’s where they make Comrade Cola…

/

16 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:56:38am

More obstruction by the GOP may hold up health care reform bill…

A group of Hispanic lawmakers on Thursday will tell President Barack Obama that they may not vote for healthcare reform unless changes are made to the bill’s immigration provisions.

Gotta love those sneaky GOP obstructionist. They got to Stupak, they got to Massa, and now they are using the Hispanics.

LOL.

17 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:56:53am

re: #14 jamesfirecat

I just can’t believe there’s a place actually named “Killen”…

I’ll see you that and raise you “Lynchburg”…

18 middy  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:57:41am

re: #12 Obdicut

What the fuck. Seriously, I feel like we’re moving backwards here.

No, we’re just polarizing as extremists of all ilks (other than the Luddites, I suppose) get each other all worked up in their online echo chambers.

19 Kragar  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:57:53am

re: #9 Cato the Elder

OT, but saw this T-shirt on a guy standing outside the local bar yesterday:

“You look like I could use a drink.”

I saw one the other day

“If I’m wearing this shirt, please remind me to do the laundry.”

20 subsailor68  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:58:35am

re: #14 jamesfirecat

I just can’t believe there’s a place actually named “Killen”…

Oh yes. It’s just down the road from “Inbreedin”.

21 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:58:57am

re: #17 Cato the Elder

My favorite is Unalaska. It’s in Alaska.

22 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:59:11am

re: #17 Cato the Elder

I’ll see you that and raise you “Lynchburg”…

Proud citizens of Doglick!

23 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:59:17am

re: #14 jamesfirecat

I just can’t believe there’s a place actually named “Killen”…

Killen Alabama

As of the census[2] of 2000, there were 1,119 people, 435 households, and 338 families residing in the town. The population density was 585.0 people per square mile (226.2/km²). There were 484 housing units at an average density of 253.0/sq mi (97.8/km²). The racial makeup of the town was 95.26% White, 2.23% Black or African American, 0.45% Asian, 1.61% from other races, and 0.45% from two or more races. 2.59% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race.


Oddly, there seems to be a shortage of men there:

For every 100 females, there were 91.9 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were 86.9 males.
24 albusteve  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:59:24am

re: #16 Walter L. Newton

More obstruction by the GOP may hold up health care reform bill…

A group of Hispanic lawmakers on Thursday will tell President Barack Obama that they may not vote for healthcare reform unless changes are made to the bill’s immigration provisions.

Gotta love those sneaky GOP obstructionist. They got to Stupak, they got to Massa, and now they are using the Hispanics.

LOL.

HA!…good one…GENIUS!

25 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:59:43am

re: #18 middy

Why blame online echo chambers, and not the public figures and leadership encouraging this nonsense?

26 Ojoe  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 10:59:58am

I’m a white guy, and I have cousins of mixed race & they are fine people and I feel no revulsion at all and R.S. McCain is totally mistaken.

27 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:00:02am

re: #16 Walter L. Newton

More obstruction by the GOP may hold up health care reform bill…

A group of Hispanic lawmakers on Thursday will tell President Barack Obama that they may not vote for healthcare reform unless changes are made to the bill’s immigration provisions.

Gotta love those sneaky GOP obstructionist. They got to Stupak, they got to Massa, and now they are using the Hispanics.

LOL.

Oye, no falta de respeto hacia mis cholos, amigo!

28 Kragar  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:00:06am

re: #22 jamesfirecat

Proud citizens of Doglick!

[Video]

San Diego, which as we all know is German for “Whale’s Vagina.”

29 torrentprime  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:00:40am

re: #12 Obdicut

What the fuck. Seriously, I feel like we’re moving backwards here.

There’s also this concern-trolling about Obama being killed.

[Link: www.daybydaycartoon.com…]

Day By Day has engaged in some… creative political discourse in the past. It once “responded” to an argument made by Andrew Sullivan regarding a conservative case for gay marriage by making an anal sex joke. So, you know, on a par with the rest of the “of course we don’t hate faggots” right.

30 middy  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:01:43am

re: #25 Obdicut

Why blame online echo chambers, and not the public figures and leadership encouraging this nonsense?

I flipped a coin?

The “leadership” you fault is just doing what they often do… saying what they think the mob wants to hear.

31 Gus  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:01:47am

re: #17 Cato the Elder

I’ll see you that and raise you “Lynchburg”…

Lynchburg. What a fitting name.

32 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:01:49am

re: #19 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I saw one the other day

“If I’m wearing this shirt, please remind me to do the laundry.”

The one in the ad on LGF shows an EKG flatlining and says, “For a minute there, you bored me to death.”

33 lawhawk  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:01:57am

re: #17 Cato the Elder

I’ll double down in Hell.

34 albusteve  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:02:01am

re: #25 Obdicut

Why blame online echo chambers, and not the public figures and leadership encouraging this nonsense?

why not blame the public that supports this nonsense?

35 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:02:05am

re: #29 torrentprime

While displaying cartoon T&A, too.

I’ve never understood the liking for that comic. The dude repeats a ton of urban myths and talking points as though they’re the truth. The one warning that Obama might be executed at the hands of outraged citizens is based on the ESPN nontroversy.

36 Chaplain  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:02:18am

re: #16 Walter L. Newton

More obstruction by the GOP may hold up health care reform bill…

A group of Hispanic lawmakers on Thursday will tell President Barack Obama that they may not vote for healthcare reform unless changes are made to the bill’s immigration provisions.

Gotta love those sneaky GOP obstructionist. They got to Stupak, they got to Massa, and now they are using the Hispanics.

LOL.

lol. I hope that is sarcasm… because I hate to break it to you but almost all the members of the CHC are democrats (one independent).

37 Ojoe  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:02:23am

re: #17 Cato the Elder

Why isn’t there a big California City in California, like there is a New York in New York?

Because it would be abbreviated

CaCa

38 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:02:42am

re: #26 Ojoe

I’m a white guy, and I have cousins of mixed race & they are fine people and I feel no revulsion at all and R.S. McCain is totally mistaken.

You aren’t just whistlin’ dixie… I can find no more reliable predictor of beauty than mixed-race parents. It’s like God giving these nuts the finger…over and over. It’s awesome.

39 jaunte  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:03:06am

re: #21 Obdicut

My favorite is Unalaska. It’s in Alaska.

The citizens of Bulltown, Texas once decided to class up the place with a fancier new name. They chose ‘Bovina.’

40 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:03:29am

re: #30 middy

The “leadership” you fault is just doing what they often do… saying what they think the mob wants to hear.

Yeah, it can’t possibly be the fault of the people pushing these ideas. They’re just responding to the market demand for them.

That’s asinine. Everyone has a free choice. The leadership can choose not to be assholes and support racists, homophobes, and those who want to make US law based on Christianity.

41 subsailor68  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:03:40am

re: #26 Ojoe

I’m a white guy, and I have cousins of mixed race & they are fine people and I feel no revulsion at all and R.S. McCain is totally mistaken.

Hi Ojoe! I’ve posted this before, but when I was a boy, my father asked me if I’d rather marry a black woman or a white woman. Being young and stupid, I said, “a white woman”.

My dad said, (names updated): “Okay, the white woman is Roseanne Barr and the black woman is Halle Berry.”

Put an end to my flirtation with idiocy.

;-)

42 Chaplain  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:03:45am

re: #36 Chaplain

lol. I hope that is sarcasm… because I hate to break it to you but almost all the members of the CHC are democrats (one independent).

Forgot the link

43 Ojoe  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:04:17am

I knew a gal who was Irish and Chinese & she had red hair and freckles and slanted eyes and she was just stunning.

BBL

44 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:04:39am

re: #28 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

San Diego, which as we all know is German for “Whale’s Vagina.”

There’s a great joke in Last Days of Foxhound about “Buttefick Montana” or someplace like that but I can’t find which one it was…

45 Ojoe  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:04:57am

re: #41 subsailor68

A smart Dad !

46 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:05:51am

re: #42 Chaplain

He knows. Walter is rather cludgily trying to say that there are plenty of Democrats who are being obstructionist. I’m not sure why he thinks this is something that people are unaware of.

To me, it’s just a long, boring version of “Tu Quoque”.

47 middy  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:06:02am

re: #40 Obdicut

Yeah, it can’t possibly be the fault of the people pushing these ideas. They’re just responding to the market demand for them.

That’s asinine. Everyone has a free choice. The leadership can choose not to be assholes and support racists, homophobes, and those who want to make US law based on Christianity.

Or they can cop out and say, “I’m just voting the way my constituency wants me to vote.”

48 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:06:03am

Got this one from Reine.

You know you are from the South if:

Jack Daniel’s makes your list of “Most Admired People.”

Anyone in your family ever died right after saying, “Hey, y’all watch this!”

You think the last words to The Star Spangled Banner are, “Gentlemen, start your engines.”

extende ad lib.

49 Chaplain  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:06:40am

re: #46 Obdicut

He knows. Walter is rather cludgily trying to say that there are plenty of Democrats who are being obstructionist. I’m not sure why he thinks this is something that people are unaware of.

To me, it’s just a long, boring version of “Tu Quoque”.

lol I figured… but I was just making sure ;)

50 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:07:00am

re: #32 Cato the Elder

The one in the ad on LGF shows an EKG flatlining and says, “For a minute there, you bored me to death.”

Can I find it with my GPS?

51 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:07:05am

re: #47 middy

Yes. They can cop out. Exactly. They’re exploiting these things for their own gain.

52 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:07:19am

re: #36 Chaplain

lol. I hope that is sarcasm… because I hate to break it to you but almost all the members of the CHC are democrats (one independent).

*facepalm* You guys… you kidding me… right?

53 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:07:20am

re: #48 Cato the Elder

Got this one from Reine.

You know you are from the South if:

Jack Daniel’s makes your list of “Most Admired People.”

Anyone in your family ever died right after saying, “Hey, y’all watch this!”

You think the last words to The Star Spangled Banner are, “Gentlemen, start your engines.”

extende ad lib.

We’re not from the south, but my brother lost a truck after saying, “Hey, watch this.”

54 avanti  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:07:37am

re: #12 Obdicut

What the fuck. Seriously, I feel like we’re moving backwards here.

There’s also this concern-trolling about Obama being killed.

[Link: www.daybydaycartoon.com…]

I swear he lifted the text in that cartoon from a recent beck Rant. i.e. hunting and fishing ban, and land seizure.

55 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:08:10am

re: #50 Cato the Elder

Can I find it with my GPS?

Damn these Progressive glasses! That was meant in reply to your #51, Lawhawk.

56 albusteve  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:08:17am

re: #46 Obdicut

He knows. Walter is rather cludgily trying to say that there are plenty of Democrats who are being obstructionist. I’m not sure why he thinks this is something that people are unaware of.

To me, it’s just a long, boring version of “Tu Quoque”.

of course it is….the donks can’t get out of their own way, so the GOP gets blamed…when shown otherwise it’s ‘Tu Quoque’

57 Lidane  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:08:18am

Completely OT, but this is huge:

Half of Kansas City’s schools to close by fall

They’re closing 29 out of 61 schools to keep from going bankrupt.

Wow. Just…wow.

58 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:08:18am

re: #52 Walter L. Newton

*facepalm* You guys… you kidding me… right?

Careful Walter. Or else they’ll twig on to responding to you by taking everything you post 100% seriously.

59 middy  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:08:19am

re: #48 Cato the Elder

Got this one from Reine.

You know you are from the South if:

Jack Daniel’s makes your list of “Most Admired People.”

Anyone in your family ever died right after saying, “Hey, y’all watch this!”

You think the last words to The Star Spangled Banner are, “Gentlemen, start your engines.”

extende ad lib.

Your front porch collapses and kills more than three dogs.

60 subsailor68  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:08:32am

re: #45 Ojoe

A smart Dad !

Thanks! He most certainly was. Other quick lesson he taught me: I was adopted, but knew about it as early as I can remember. I came home from elementary school one day feeling bad, because some kids were teasing me about being adopted.

Dad said, well, tell them how sorry you are that they weren’t. We got to pick you; their folks were stuck with them.

I did.

61 Chaplain  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:08:38am

re: #52 Walter L. Newton

*facepalm* You guys… you kidding me… right?

lol relax. I figured it was sarcasm… I was just making sure :P

62 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:08:51am

re: #46 Obdicut

He knows. Walter is rather cludgily trying to say that there are plenty of Democrats who are being obstructionist. I’m not sure why he thinks this is something that people are unaware of.

To me, it’s just a long, boring version of “Tu Quoque”.

Because, almost every time the HCR bell comes up, there are comments here on how the GOP are being obstructionist.

63 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:09:04am

re: #55 Cato the Elder

Damn these Progressive glasses! That was meant in reply to your #51, Lawhawk.

Does Prog glass see into the future, but just does it very blurrily?

64 Gus  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:09:21am

re: #12 Obdicut

What the fuck. Seriously, I feel like we’re moving backwards here.

There’s also this concern-trolling about Obama being killed.

[Link: www.daybydaycartoon.com…]

I’d say DbD jumped the shark.

65 torrentprime  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:09:43am

re: #60 subsailor68

Thanks! He most certainly was. Other quick lesson he taught me: I was adopted, but knew about it as early as I can remember. I came home from elementary school one day feeling bad, because some kids were teasing me about being adopted.

Dad said, well, tell them how sorry you are that they weren’t. We got to pick you; their folks were stuck with them.

I did.

Just have to say, based on both stories: your dad is awesome.

66 torrentprime  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:10:06am

re: #62 Walter L. Newton

Because, almost every time the HCR bell comes up, there are comments here on how the GOP are being obstructionist.

Good thing the facts bear that assertion out.

67 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:10:06am

re: #53 EmmmieG

We’re not from the south, but my brother lost a truck after saying, “Hey, watch this.”

It’s not just the South. In Michigan, when you start to slide off the road in a snowstorm, we say, “Hold my beer and watch this!”

68 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:10:43am

re: #54 avanti

I swear he lifted the text in that cartoon from a recent beck Rant. i.e. hunting and fishing ban, and land seizure.

They’ll get around to that right after they get our GPS coordinates, ban Christian broadcasting, and start drafting youth into the ACORN militia.

69 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:11:47am

re: #58 oaktree

Careful Walter. Or else they’ll twig on to responding to you by taking everything you post 100% seriously.

Sure… was that a threat?

70 middy  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:12:13am

re: #68 Shiplord Kirel

They’ll get around to that right after they get our GPS coordinates, ban Christian broadcasting, and start drafting youth into the ACORN militia.

You forgot “take all our guns away.”

71 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:12:36am

re: #56 albusteve

The GOP has engaged in massive obstructionist behavior. They’ve filibustered more than ever before, and often have had not a single GOP member vote for bills even after concessions were made.

Some Democrats are definitely being obstructionist as well— like Stupak. That they are being obstructionist in no way affects the truth that the GOP are being obstructionist as a whole. Obstructionist is mostly about preventing things coming up for an up-or-down vote in the senate, blocking appointments, etc.

It’s perfectly fine for people to not vote for things. I have no problem with that. But the GOP is voting by block way too often, they’re voting against cloture— against actually voting— way too often, and very often are making it clear that they won’t vote for a bill no matter how it’s altered or adjusted.

72 subsailor68  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:12:39am

re: #65 torrentprime

Just have to say, based on both stories: your dad is awesome.

Thanks so much! I lost him back in 1979, but I’ve just realized that he’s not really gone as long as I post stories like those - so folks get a taste of what he was like.

Like that wonderful line from the movie “Legend of 1900”:

“You’re never really done for, as long as you have a good story and someone to tell it to.”

Thanks again!

73 torrentprime  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:13:15am

re: #70 middy

You forgot “take all our guns away.”

And “throw pastors in jail for preaching the Bible”

74 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:14:00am

re: #9 Cato the Elder

OT, but saw this T-shirt on a guy standing outside the local bar yesterday:

“You look like I could use a drink.”

In Baltimore? No way!
/

75 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:14:07am

re: #71 Obdicut

The GOP has engaged in massive obstructionist behavior. They’ve filibustered more than ever before, and often have had not a single GOP member vote for bills even after concessions were made.

Some Democrats are definitely being obstructionist as well— like Stupak. That they are being obstructionist in no way affects the truth that the GOP are being obstructionist as a whole. Obstructionist is mostly about preventing things coming up for an up-or-down vote in the senate, blocking appointments, etc.

It’s perfectly fine for people to not vote for things. I have no problem with that. But the GOP is voting by block way too often, they’re voting against cloture— against actually voting— way too often, and very often are making it clear that they won’t vote for a bill no matter how it’s altered or adjusted.

that’s how the game is played.

76 webevintage  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:14:16am

I’m not gay but this shit is just wearing me out:
[Link: thinkprogress.org…]

77 albusteve  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:14:21am

re: #66 torrentprime

Good thing the facts bear that assertion out.

why are democrats obstructing their own bill?…why hasn’t some version been passed months ago?…the GOP is standing firm against bad legislation…the donks are the obstructionists and the numbers prove it….you have an odd partisan way of looking at it

78 blueraven  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:14:55am

re: #21 Obdicut

My favorite is Unalaska. It’s in Alaska.

Here in Texas we have the lovely town of “Cut and Shoot”

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

79 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:15:41am

re: #75 Walter L. Newton

No, Walter. These things are measurable, and from every measurable angle, the GOP are being massively obstructionist. Hell, they’re claiming it as pride, that they’re stopping the Democrats from doing anything.

80 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:16:24am

re: #79 Obdicut

No, Walter. These things are measurable, and from every measurable angle, the GOP are being massively obstructionist. Hell, they’re claiming it as pride, that they’re stopping the Democrats from doing anything.

Ha.

81 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:16:38am

re: #77 albusteve

You cannot both celebrate the GOP for standing firm against bad legislation and not agree that they’re obstructionist. It’s cognitive dissonance.

They’re standing firm by not allowing cloture votes, which means not allowing things to come up for up-or-down votes. That’s what obstructionist means.

82 Chaplain  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:16:38am

re: #71 Obdicut

The GOP has engaged in massive obstructionist behavior. They’ve filibustered more than ever before, and often have had not a single GOP member vote for bills even after concessions were made.

Some Democrats are definitely being obstructionist as well— like Stupak. That they are being obstructionist in no way affects the truth that the GOP are being obstructionist as a whole. Obstructionist is mostly about preventing things coming up for an up-or-down vote in the senate, blocking appointments, etc.

It’s perfectly fine for people to not vote for things. I have no problem with that. But the GOP is voting by block way too often, they’re voting against cloture— against actually voting— way too often, and very often are making it clear that they won’t vote for a bill no matter how it’s altered or adjusted.

While their refusal to allow this to come to a vote is purely for political gain and they are being obstructionists, what they are doing is a valid senate tactic. Both sides have done exactly the same thing on a number of issues throughout history. The real question is, do the American people want this to come to a vote or not? I think the American people do but I am not sure if the American people want it to pass.

83 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:16:41am

OT - my very cute, way too young for me, redhead coworker is wearing a pretty low-cut top today. I’m kind of glad she works on the other side of the room. That’s way too much of a distraction!

84 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:16:43am

McCain will have a 3 point refutation of all criticism, going something like this

1) No allegations against me about racism can be true because Michael Steele is black and one must first understand Hayekian knowledge theory before engaging me further on this point;

2) The cultural smears against the grad traditions of the south are yet further smeared in the most smeary of smeary ways when these shabby opinions are made by lesser men;

3) [This last paragraph usually involves an even more abstruse argument which will carry some sexual inuendo that is supposed to be subtle but can’t be because (a)RSMs readership doesn’t get subtlety and (b)RSM is so sexually insecure that making it anything but obvious may introduce a conveyance of sexual confusion, which RSM fears more than anything]

85 albusteve  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:16:50am

re: #71 Obdicut

The GOP has engaged in massive obstructionist behavior. They’ve filibustered more than ever before, and often have had not a single GOP member vote for bills even after concessions were made.

Some Democrats are definitely being obstructionist as well— like Stupak. That they are being obstructionist in no way affects the truth that the GOP are being obstructionist as a whole. Obstructionist is mostly about preventing things coming up for an up-or-down vote in the senate, blocking appointments, etc.

It’s perfectly fine for people to not vote for things. I have no problem with that. But the GOP is voting by block way too often, they’re voting against cloture— against actually voting— way too often, and very often are making it clear that they won’t vote for a bill no matter how it’s altered or adjusted.

good for them…that’s the way it works…maybe the majority will be represented after all if the CBO doesn’t get bought off

86 torrentprime  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:16:56am

re: #75 Walter L. Newton

that’s how the game is played.

The obstruction game, yes. The “participating in a functional government with something remotely related to good faith,” no, no it’s not.

87 Girth  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:17:06am

re: #78 blueraven

Here in Texas we have the lovely town of “Cut and Shoot”

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

Welcome to Hell, MI.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

88 Lidane  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:17:13am

re: #76 webevintage

I’m not gay but this shit is just wearing me out:
[Link: thinkprogress.org…]

People honestly need to get over it. There are gay kids in high school. Some of them even date or have relationships with others. If they want to attend prom together, let them.

I’ll guarantee there’s more outrage over the prom being canceled than there ever was over the lesbian student and her girlfriend. The district totally overreacted.

89 jaunte  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:17:25am

re: #83 Mad Al-Jaffee

OT - my very cute, way too young for me, redhead coworker is wearing a pretty low-cut top today. I’m kind of glad she works on the other side of the room. That’s way too much of a distraction!

Link?

90 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:17:37am

re: #64 Gus 802

I’d say DbD jumped the shark.

Long time passing.

91 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:18:45am

re: #89 jaunte

Link?

Sorry, you’ll just have to use your imagination.

92 albusteve  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:18:53am

re: #86 torrentprime

The obstruction game, yes. The “participating in a functional government with something remotely related to good faith,” no, no it’s not.

it’s only ‘obstructionists’ to the dems…sound like a bunch of whiny buck passers

93 torrentprime  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:19:14am

re: #76 webevintage

I’m not gay but this shit is just wearing me out:
[Link: thinkprogress.org…]


re: #88 Lidane

I’ll guarantee there’s more outrage over the prom being canceled than there ever was over the lesbian student and her girlfriend. The district totally overreacted.

The hate that will be directed at that girl, because she “caused prom to get canceled,” is going to be soul-crushing. What monsters made that decision…

94 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:19:23am

re: #74 Mad Al-Jaffee

In Baltimore? No way!
/

Charles Village.

If I were a Hopkinz grrl, I’d buy him a drink and toss it in his face.

95 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:19:54am

re: #91 Mad Al-Jaffee

I work at a place that’s about 70% women and they compete with each other in appearance. It’s kind of amazing; a female-dominated hierarchy turns out to produce a situation that a male chauvinist would love to observe.

96 webevintage  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:20:04am

re: #88 Lidane

People honestly need to get over it. There are gay kids in high school. Some of them even date or have relationships with others. If they want to attend prom together, let them.

I’ll guarantee there’s more outrage over the prom being canceled than there ever was over the lesbian student and her girlfriend. The district totally overreacted.

I’m not surprised by the worry of teh!Ghay (though it is disgusting this shit is still going on and nice way to make a whole school hate on one girl) seeing as it is in Miss, but the fact that a young woman has to ask permission to wear a tux instead of a dress?
WTF?

97 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:20:28am

re: #86 torrentprime

The obstruction game, yes. The “participating in a functional government with something remotely related to good faith,” no, no it’s not.

I’ll get back to you on the “good faith” stuff. What do you think this is “Jesus Camp,” Sunday school?

Call it what you want, it’s a game that’s been played by both side, times over. Stop whining. You got enough rogue Dems to worry about.

98 torrentprime  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:20:46am

re: #92 albusteve

it’s only ‘obstructionists’ to the dems…sound like a bunch of whiny buck passers

I agree the GOP is and has been passing the buck on the issues facing our country, but after they ignored these issues for a decade or more, we can’t wait for them anymore.

99 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:21:48am

re: #98 torrentprime

I agree the GOP is and has been passing the buck on the issues facing our country, but after they ignored these issues for a decade or more, we can’t wait for them anymore.

Well, your doing a bad job of doing it on your own right now.

100 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:21:57am

re: #81 Obdicut

The Dems do it to
All the Progs Blame the GOP when it’s the Dems
Of course the GOP is doing it, that’s the way it works.

that about right?

101 Gus  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:21:57am

re: #90 Cato the Elder

Long time passing.

OK. Never really kept up with them.

102 Chaplain  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:22:06am

re: #98 torrentprime

I agree the GOP is and has been passing the buck on the issues facing our country, but after they ignored these issues for a decade or more, we can’t wait for them anymore.

If this was a piece of legislation you didn’t want to pass, I wonder if you would be just as adamant about it coming to a vote that it might pass.

103 torrentprime  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:22:13am

re: #97 Walter L. Newton

I’ll get back to you on the “good faith” stuff. What do you think this is “Jesus Camp,” Sunday school?

Call it what you want, it’s a game that’s been played by both side, times over.

As has been pointed out in this thread and others: no, no it hasn’t. The sheer number of vote blocks alone by the GOP puts the lie to that defense.

104 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:22:25am

re: #85 albusteve

Who buys the CBO off?

105 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:22:33am

re: #97 Walter L. Newton

It’s an unprecedented level of obstructionism by any measure, Walter.

And the stupid part is the GOP is campaigning on being obstructionist while claiming they’re not obstructionist. It’s clown time.

106 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:22:39am

FINALLY FOUND IT!

Presenting the silliest most unrealistic town name ever!

[Link: gigaville.com…]

107 zora  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:22:53am

re: #93 torrentprime

the one’s that wanted her soul crushed. they also want to make sure no one tries this next year or the whole school / community will hate them. we will next see the annual stories of racially segregated proms. yes, they still have these in some areas of the south. sad.

108 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:23:54am

re: #95 Obdicut

I work at a place that’s about 70% women and they compete with each other in appearance. It’s kind of amazing; a female-dominated hierarchy turns out to produce a situation that a male chauvinist would love to observe.

All of my immediate co-workers, and all older than me. Except this one. She’s probably 22-23. She was away for a while on another assignment and she returned last week. I think the last time I saw her was in winter clothes. Not today. Wow!

109 webevintage  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:23:55am

re: #93 torrentprime

The hate that will be directed at that girl, because she “caused prom to get canceled,” is going to be soul-crushing. What monsters made that decision…

Yeah, talk about a situation just ripe for some horrible bullying…
And the whole thing would never have been a “distraction to learning” if they had just let her bring her girlfriend and wear the tux.
I hope she has some supporters in her town who will point out that the problem is the school and not the two young women.

110 Chaplain  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:23:57am

re: #105 Obdicut

It’s an unprecedented level of obstructionism by any measure, Walter.

And the stupid part is the GOP is campaigning on being obstructionist while claiming they’re not obstructionist. It’s clown time.

Be careful when making blanket statements.

111 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:24:43am

re: #103 torrentprime

As has been pointed out in this thread and others: no, no it hasn’t. The sheer number of vote blocks alone by the GOP puts the lie to that defense.

Hey… I want it to pass… I’m 57, out of work, I’ll need this health care… I want fully socialized medicine… one source, one entity to deal with… the Dems promised… yet they are wasting time eating their own.

112 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:25:25am

re: #110 Chaplain

Please demonstrate an inaccuracy in what I said. I did misphrase and indicate that the GOP were being obstructionist on all bills, which isn’t true— just, you know, the important ones.

113 torrentprime  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:25:43am

re: #104 Jeff In Ohio

Who buys the CBO off?

No one. His comment is just part of the whole “when the facts don’t back you up, accuse the refs of lying.” See “climate change grants” and “evolution conspiracy in the scientific world.”

114 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:25:47am

re: #110 Chaplain

Be careful when making blanket statements.

Be careful of not addressing the point.
[Link: www.washingtonmonthly.com…]

115 Lidane  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:26:17am

re: #92 albusteve

This entire conversation reminds me of a recent Colbert bit:

Define & Conquer

116 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:26:58am

re: #110 Chaplain

Be careful when making blanket statements.

We were talking about how many fillibusters there were.

[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com…]

By the way, notice how the brown bar has all its major leaps when democrats held the majority in the senate?

117 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:27:39am

I went to one of my high school dances with a girl. We were neither one of us gay.

It was a masquerade, and she was an actress, and wanted to see if she could get away with it.

She wore a tux, and a mask. I wore my mother’s 60’s chiffon-dream dress and and a mask. The best part was that she had a walking cane that she kept poking her friend in the butt with just to be obnoxious.

118 avanti  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:28:01am

It looks like the work being done by the AGW skeptics is effective.

Gallup poll.

119 torrentprime  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:28:03am

re: #111 Walter L. Newton

Hey… I want it to pass… I’m 57, out of work, I’ll need this health care… I want fully socialized medicine… one source, one entity to deal with… the Dems promised… yet they are wasting time eating their own.

So when we weigh “delivering 80% or so of Democrats” versus “delivering 0% of Republicans” on this issue, the balance of the blame must lie with the party unable to deliver perfection, instead of the party unable to even deliver participation.

120 Chaplain  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:28:48am

re: #112 Obdicut

Please demonstrate an inaccuracy in what I said. I did misphrase and indicate that the GOP were being obstructionist on all bills, which isn’t true— just, you know, the important ones.

It’s an unprecedented level of obstructionism by any measure, Walter.

And the stupid part is the GOP is campaigning on being obstructionist while claiming they’re not obstructionist. It’s clown time.

It is not unprecedented, and therefore your statement is inaccurate.

121 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:28:56am

re: #113 torrentprime

No one. His comment is just part of the whole “when the facts don’t back you up, accuse the refs of lying.” See “climate change grants” and “evolution conspiracy in the scientific world.”

I know, I was just being a winey, puck passing Prog.

122 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:29:11am

re: #118 avanti

I do not understand those nihilistic assholes. Do they not have children or something? Or do they just figure that the scientists will pull a rabbit out of their hat and save our asses?

123 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:29:46am

re: #120 Chaplain

It is not unprecedented, and therefore your statement is inaccurate.

What isn’t unprecedented, please? Again, rather than just linking to something, please actually explain your argument.

124 webevintage  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:29:56am

I saw that the CBO had bought off again and have finished checking the Senate Bill with changes and they say it will still reduce the deficit by 118 million:
[Link: cboblog.cbo.gov…]

Damn those buying off the CBO gremlins!
/

125 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:30:06am

re: #119 torrentprime

So when we weigh “delivering 80% or so of Democrats” versus “delivering 0% of Republicans” on this issue, the balance of the blame must lie with the party unable to deliver perfection, instead of the party unable to even deliver participation.

Delivered? Did I miss a HCR bill being signed by Obama?

126 Randall Gross  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:30:21am

Papers who publish fans of Sam T. Francis are really screwed up, it’s gone from Washington times to Moonie times to now Loonie Times.

127 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:30:26am

re: #122 Obdicut

To be clear, I mean the people pushing the AGW denial, not the people who are being convinced by it. I mean the people who know better, but push it anyway. Fuckers.

128 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:30:36am

re: #120 Chaplain

It is not unprecedented, and therefore your statement is inaccurate.

Yes it is. Your statement is inaccurate.

129 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:30:57am

re: #101 Gus 802

OK. Never really kept up with them.

I did. They were funny, for a while. Then the ODS kicked in.

130 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:31:10am

re: #122 Obdicut

I do not understand those nihilistic assholes. Do they not have children or something? Or do they just figure that the scientists will pull a rabbit out of their hat and save our asses?

God Promised that he’d never kill us with a flood again and that’s why we have rainbows!

131 subsailor68  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:31:37am

re: #104 Jeff In Ohio

Who buys the CBO off?

Hi Jeff! I’m no expert on this (or anything actually), but I think CBO does a pretty good job. But, they can only score proposals that have been presented to them. So, there’s room for a little monkey-business if a legislator wants to go that way.

For example, let’s say I have a piece of legislation that I want CBO to score as deficit neutral, or saving money. But, unfortunately, it won’t score that way as it’s written. So, I simply pull parts of the legislation that will put it over the top. That’s okay.

But then I have those parts added to another, unrelated, piece of legislation. My bill scores fine, but in the overall picture, I’ve actually run up the deficit.

Just not on my bill.

At one point, IIRC, that’s what happened to the health care reform version sent to CBO a while back. It looked okay, but that’s because Medicare physician reimbursements weren’t in that one - they were in a separate bill not addressed during the scoring process.

132 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:31:45am

re: #130 jamesfirecat

God Promised that he’d never kill us with a flood again and that’s why we have rainbows!

Of course. Where else are we going to find pots of gold?

133 Chaplain  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:31:55am

re: #123 Obdicut

What isn’t unprecedented, please? Again, rather than just linking to something, please actually explain your argument.

You said “It’s an unprecedented level of obstructionism by any measure” I said, “Be careful about making blanket statements” because it is a valid senate tactic used countless times before. It is definitely obstructionism, but unprecedented… hardly. Plain enough for you (notice, no links).

134 Olsonist  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:32:08am

re: #120 Chaplain

Pedantry.

135 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:32:40am

re: #133 Chaplain

Do you know what the word ‘level’ means?

Is there a reason you’re skipping that part of what I’m saying?

You get really annoying, real fast.

136 ryannon  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:32:41am

Not so OT:

‘Net Posse Tracked ‘Jihad Jane’ for Three Years

Civilian Monitors Warn of Others Like ‘Jane’ on the ‘Net Who Are More Dangerous

[Link: abcnews.go.com…]

137 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:32:46am

re: #109 webevintage

If you abstract the event as “What would two students have to do to get a longstanding tradition such as the prom to get canceled at their school” how many would answer with what the two women actually did.

That’s leverage beyond what anyone would expect. And makes it really clear that the school massively over-reacted. The typhoon destroys the oak while the bamboo simply bends.*

But I agree that now the scapegoaters will chase the girls rather than seriously analyze the more obvious faults.

*- though I’ve noted locally that the oaks stood up to the recent snows much better than the bamboo did.

138 Randall Gross  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:33:15am

Of course it’s no surprise that the Washington Times would publish the disciple racist after they published the master racist…

139 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:33:39am

re: #2 Cato the Elder

Scum is easily moved from one pond to another.

I wonder if they bought a new bucket to move McCain, or just used the one from the latrine.

140 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:34:11am

re: #133 Chaplain

You said “It’s an unprecedented level of obstructionism by any measure” I said, “Be careful about making blanket statements” because it is a valid senate tactic used countless times before. It is definitely obstructionism, but unprecedented… hardly. Plain enough for you (notice, no links).

The amount of obstructionism is unprecedented not the type of it.

There have never been THIS MANY fillibusters THIS EARLY into a president’s term.

Do you dispute this?

141 torrentprime  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:34:14am

re: #120 Chaplain

It is not unprecedented, and therefore your statement is inaccurate.

Did you really just try to compare a 100-voter poll on DU to the recorded actions of the GOP?

The Staggering Rise of the Filibuster

According to research by UCLA political scientist Barbara Sinclair, there was an average of one filibuster per Congress during the 1950s. That number has grown steadily since and spiked in 2007 and 2008 (the 110th Congress), when there were 52 filibusters. More broadly, according to Sinclair, while 8 percent of major legislation in the 1960s was subject to “extended-debate-related problems” like filibusters, 70 percent of major bills were so targeted during the 110th Congress.

Analysis: Republicans setting filibuster record

Last year, the first of the 111th Congress, there were a record 112 cloture votes. In the first two months of 2010, the number already exceeds 40.
That means, with 10 months left to run in the 111th Congress, Republicans have turned to the filibuster or threatened its use at a pace that will more than triple the old record. The 104th Congress in 1995-96 — when Republicans held a 53-47 majority — required 50 cloture votes.
142 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:35:59am

re: #131 subsailor68

Indeed. The process can be manipulated, and that manipulation is easily uncovered. Like todays CBO report looks good, but once it takes into account changes made during reconciliation, the savings will go down.

Not quite the same as ‘being bought off’, though.

Speaking of economic analysis, anyone see the analysis done by the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities on the Ryan Road Map?? Not pretty. I wander whose buying them off?

143 torrentprime  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:36:28am

re: #125 Walter L. Newton

Delivered? Did I miss a HCR bill being signed by Obama?

What part of “an HCR bill already passed the Senate and the House” did you miss?

144 webevintage  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:36:34am

What is the downside of letting Republicans going ahead and filibuster?

(that is assuming that the Dems would actually force them to stay all day and night and not close up for the evening like they did with Bunning)

In the end Bunning made himself and the Republicans look bad…

145 Chaplain  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:36:44am

re: #128 Jeff In Ohio

Yes it is. Your statement is inaccurate.

Very funny… now try re: #135 Obdicut

Do you know what the word ‘level’ means?

Is there a reason you’re skipping that part of what I’m saying?

You get really annoying, real fast.

I am not skipping anything you are saying. I hate blanket statements that people use to blow the situation way out of proportion. Obstructionists, yes the Republicans are being obstructionists. Are they the worst obstructionists ever? No.

What really annoys me is people who make inflated statements to deamonize on side or another in an argument.

146 torrentprime  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:37:37am

re: #144 webevintage

What is the downside of letting Republicans going ahead and filibuster?

(that is assuming that the Dems would actually force them to stay all day and night and not close up for the evening like they did with Bunning)

In the end Bunning made himself and the Republicans look bad…

The filibuster doesn’t work that way, presently. The whole “read the phone book and 2 dictionaries at the podium” isn’t necessary anymore.

147 subsailor68  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:37:38am

re: #142 Jeff In Ohio

Not quite the same as ‘being bought off’, though.

Yep, exactly! I may be naive here, but like I said, CBO seems to do a pretty good job with what they’re given.

148 Firstinla  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:37:38am

re: #37 Ojoe

You really don’t want to visit California City, California. One main street in the windiest place on the planet. The place is major suck.

149 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:37:52am

re: #71 Obdicut

I agree that Republicans will now not vote for health care no matter what. But the reasons are political at this point - they smell the kill and they aren’t going to let the other guys off the hook.

Pelosi and Reid had no problem being obstructionists and many see that as how they got to power. For example, they had no intention of having Bush get any form of Social Security reform done. He saw that as the issue he was going to spend his political capital on after re-election and they managed to kill it and make Bush own its death and used the issue to peel off parts of his constituency.

And then there is the whole “but our obstructionism isn’t really obstructionism because the people want our obstructionism” argument, as was made by Media Matters back in 2005.

I am not endorsing any of this - just coming to accept it as the new, standard political behavior as political discourse disintegrates in this country.

Anyways, Republicans (which used to call themselves “the party of ideas”) are going to croiss their arms and be obstructionists and then say “Nancy did it first” when called on it. the behavior won’t change. Nor will it if Democrats go into the minority anytime soon.

As long as the primary medium of American politics is the Internut, and as long as the Internut user values speedy answers to accurate ones, this will continue and get worse. Sad to say and I hate being a pessimist, but i see no way out until people become more skilled consumers of electronic information.

150 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:38:34am

re: #143 torrentprime

What part of “an HCR bill already passed the Senate and the House” did you miss?

Then what part of “80 percent” of “what” that the Dems have delivered did I miss?

151 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:38:35am

re: #145 Chaplain

I am not skipping anything you are saying. I hate blanket statements that people use to blow the situation way out of proportion. Obstructionists, yes the Republicans are being obstructionists. Are they the worst obstructionists ever? No.

What really annoys me is people who make inflated statements to deamonize on side or another in an argument.

Who are worse obstructionists (in the US history) then our current republicans?

By what measure are those people who are not the current day republicans more obstructionist?

152 lawhawk  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:38:55am

re: #142 Jeff In Ohio

Not only can it be manipulated, but the CBO will only score based on the bill presented and the law as it currently stands.

So if the terms of other legislation change, it will affect scoring down the road.

In other words, in the health care debate, the CBO will score matters based on how the law exists at present, including the sunset of all Bush era tax cuts on schedule when looking at all the revenue projections going forward even though everyone expects that the tax law will look quite different as parts are maintained while others are allowed to sunset. That affects expectations and the projections.

153 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:39:07am

re: #145 Chaplain

Then prove your argument by showing a time period where there was more obstructionism, please.

154 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:40:07am

re: #98 torrentprime

I agree the GOP is and has been passing the buck on the issues facing our country, but after they ignored these issues for a decade or more, we can’t wait for them anymore.

riiiight. social security called. thanks for the help.

155 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:40:14am

re: #75 Walter L. Newton

The Democrats in Congress worked with Bush…………… a lot more than Gop’ers have with Obama.

There was a fantastic article in the Economist a few weeks back on the current situation and how much good work has been done thusfar inspite of the current system.

[Link: www.economist.com…]

156 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:40:20am

re: #149 karmic_inquisitor

[snip]

I am not endorsing any of this - just coming to accept it as the new, standard political behavior as political discourse disintegrates in this country.

[snip]

No… it’s just the GOP doing this.

157 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:40:27am

re: #152 lawhawk

What really should be scored is the cost of continuing as we are now. If people saw those costs, I think they’d be a lot more inclined to support pragmatic solutions.

158 torrentprime  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:40:46am

re: #150 Walter L. Newton

Then what part of “80 percent” of “what” that the Dems have delivered did I miss?

So you understand/agree that the Ds delivered the votes in both chambers to pass their respective bills?

159 blueraven  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:41:29am

re: #145 Chaplain

I am not skipping anything you are saying. I hate blanket statements that people use to blow the situation way out of proportion. Obstructionists, yes the Republicans are being obstructionists. Are they the worst obstructionists ever? No Yes.

What really annoys me is people who make inflated statements to deamonize on side or another in an argument.

FIFY

160 torrentprime  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:42:16am

re: #154 Aceofwhat?

riiight. social security called. thanks for the help.

You mean the plan that would have resulted in even more destructive losses in the economic collapse in 08?

Yeah, we really missed a great opportunity to reap the gains of the free market for social security with that blunder.
/

161 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:43:06am

re: #152 lawhawk

Not only can it be manipulated, but the CBO will only score based on the bill presented and the law as it currently stands.
.

And that’s what I mean by manipulated. They only score what they are given.

re: #152 lawhawk

So if the terms of other legislation change, it will affect scoring down the road.

In other words, in the health care debate, the CBO will score matters based on how the law exists at present, including the sunset of all Bush era tax cuts on schedule when looking at all the revenue projections going forward even though everyone expects that the tax law will look quite different as parts are maintained while others are allowed to sunset. That affects expectations and the projections.

And that’s what I meant by the manipulation can easily be revealed.

But what I was hoping to find out is how the CBO is bought off? Because I’ve never heard that and it seems awfully naive.

162 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:43:09am

re: #158 torrentprime

So you understand/agree that the Ds delivered the votes in both chambers to pass their respective bills?

Well of course they did. I guess all that obstruction was of no avail. I’m still waiting for both chambers to come to an agreement. I don’t see that happening. Of course, if it doesn’t happen, it will be the fault of… ?

163 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:43:25am

re: #156 Walter L. Newton

No… it’s just the GOP doing this.

[Link: www.google.com…]

Shoe was on the other foot only 5 short years ago.

Makes for fun reading - every guru back then could be called on it today.

164 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:43:46am

re: #145 Chaplain

What really annoys me is people who make inflated statements to deamonize on side or another in an argument.

Did you mean to say “damonize”?

165 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:44:18am

re: #162 Walter L. Newton

Van Bush Acorn!!!

166 torrentprime  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:44:30am

re: #162 Walter L. Newton

Well of course they did. I guess all that obstruction was of no avail. I’m still waiting for both chambers to come to an agreement. I don’t see that happening. Of course, if it doesn’t happen, it will be the fault of… ?

The party that bargained in bad faith by asking for concessions, receiving them and not delivering the votes? Maybe that analysis is just some looney left logic; I don’t know.

167 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:44:42am

re: #163 karmic_inquisitor

[Link: www.google.com…]

Shoe was on the other foot only 5 short years ago.

Makes for fun reading - every guru back then could be called on it today.

It’s called Selective Memory. Very convenient tactic in politics and getting caught snorkeling.

168 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:45:31am

re: #151 jamesfirecat

Would the Pinckney Resolutions count as obstructionism?

169 cliffster  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:46:03am

re: #160 torrentprime

You mean the plan that would have resulted in even more destructive losses in the economic collapse in 08?

Yeah, we really missed a great opportunity to reap the gains of the free market for social security with that blunder.
/

*sniff* *sniff* what’s that smell? Oh I know, it’s that nasty odor of 6 year old talking points.

170 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:46:10am

By the way - I hereby renounce and take back all of my prior criticisms / attacks on Cass Sunstein.

Cyber Balkinization is both real and corrosive.

171 Chaplain  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:46:10am

re: #153 Obdicut

Then prove your argument by showing a time period where there was more obstructionism, please.

as torrentprime pointed out in his links, the current record is still held by the 110th congress (republican majority).

172 torrentprime  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:47:41am

re: #169 cliffster

*sniff* *sniff* what’s that smell? Oh I know, it’s that nasty odor of 6 year old talking points.

We will be greeted as liberators? Oh wait, that one’s a bit older. ;)

173 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:48:39am

re: #171 Chaplain

Since this one isn’t over yet, the current GOPs are being the most obstructionist in history. As you can clearly see.

Why continue with this busted line of argument, dude? Smearing yourself in fail isn’t going to bring any great rewards.

174 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:49:01am

re: #168 oaktree

Would the Pinckney Resolutions count as obstructionism?

Depends how were those resolutions passed was it by majority vote? What would it have taken to overturn them once they were passed?

175 torrentprime  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:49:40am

re: #171 Chaplain

as torrentprime pointed out in his links, the current record is still held by the 110th congress (republican majority).

The One Hundred Tenth United States Congress was… between January 3, 2007, and January 3, 2009, during the last two years of the second term of President George W. Bush. …
The Democratic Party controlled a majority in both chambers for the first time since the end of the 103rd Congress in 1995.


This is actually causing you physical pain, isn’t it?

176 cliffster  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:49:41am

Are we using the faulty notion of counting the number of filibusters again?

177 torrentprime  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:50:30am

re: #176 cliffster

Are we using the faulty notion of counting the number of filibusters again?

Yeah! Because counting the number of times the minority stops all progress on legislation has nothing to do with obstructionism!
/

178 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:50:45am

re: #169 cliffster

*sniff* *sniff* what’s that smell? Oh I know, it’s that nasty odor of 6 year old talking points.

Yo mama!

179 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:50:47am

re: #176 cliffster

What metric do you think would show that the GOP isn’t been obstructionist?

Number of confirmations being held up, perhaps?

180 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:51:29am

What in the world are you talking about?
:D

181 Chaplain  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:51:42am

re: #173 Obdicut

Since this one isn’t over yet, the current GOPs are being the most obstructionist in history. As you can clearly see.

Why continue with this busted line of argument, dude? Smearing yourself in fail isn’t going to bring any great rewards.

Until next the next congress comes in and does it again. This is just going to keep escalating. It has been escalating since Strong Thurman. Each year the previous congress was “the most obstructionist congress ever!”. Fillibusters used to be rare but haven’t been (since before the Republicans became the minority). Your just crying right now because you dislike what they are doing. When the shoe is on the other foot will you cry as much I wonder?

182 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:52:02am

What I don’t get about this argument is that the GOP freely admits what they’re doing. They’re campaigning on it. It’s all about ‘stopping’ things, stopping the Democrats. It’s not something they’re really trying to hide.

183 cliffster  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:52:27am

re: #177 torrentprime

re: #179 Obdicut

Ok, I’ll ask again as I’ve asked many times.. how do you measure the number of filibusters? By the number of publicly declared threats? By simply asking the majority leader? Or by the actual number of filibusters? Because if you use the last one, it’s a very small number. If you use any other, then it’s most unscientific. So - it’s a faulty notion.

184 albusteve  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:52:29am

okay…the CBO cannot be bought off….that’s a little too colorful….they can be manipulated, and after they work for congress, who are notorious crooks and gangsters

185 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:52:39am

re: #181 Chaplain

Until next the next congress comes in and does it again. This is just going to keep escalating. It has been escalating since Strong Thurman. Each year the previous congress was “the most obstructionist congress ever!”. Fillibusters used to be rare but haven’t been (since before the Republicans became the minority). Your just crying right now because you dislike what they are doing. When the shoe is on the other foot will you cry as much I wonder?

Who?

186 Chaplain  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:52:48am

re: #175 torrentprime

This is actually causing you physical pain, isn’t it?

Not really… I could care less. My point is that it keeps getting worse and has been for a long time. both sides are to blame… it’s just the republicans turn to be the bad guys.

187 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:52:54am

I’m sure the paulians and the others on the far right will interpret the conciliatory words of Joe Biden towards Israel as more “evidence” that the Joos control America …

[Link: www.jpost.com…]

188 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:53:02am

re: #160 torrentprime

You mean the plan that would have resulted in even more destructive losses in the economic collapse in 08?

Yeah, we really missed a great opportunity to reap the gains of the free market for social security with that blunder.
/

quick math question…

i’ll invest 10k right before the collapse. you put 10k into social security.

see me in 40 years. which one of us has more money?

189 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:53:34am

re: #171 Chaplain

as torrentprime pointed out in his links, the current record is still held by the 110th congress (republican majority).

One small problem, what year was the 110th congress in power?

Lets see it was 2007 to 2008…. and you say the Republicans had a majority then?

It was 49 dems, 49 Republicans plus Berny Sanders and Joe Liberman….


Well I guess if you count Liberman as a Republican and can call in Dick Cheney as a tie breaker that’s a Republican Majority of sorts…..

190 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:53:47am

re: #181 Chaplain

Each year the previous congress was “the most obstructionist congress ever!”.


Completely false.

Look again:

[Link: www.mcclatchydc.com…]

Does that show a steady rise from year to year? No.

That you’ve resorted to direct lies so quickly doesn’t speak well of you.

191 cliffster  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:53:55am

re: #185 Cato the Elder

Who?

Strong Thurman

192 torrentprime  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:54:03am

re: #188 Aceofwhat?

quick math question…

i’ll invest 10k right before the collapse. you put 10k into social security.

see me in 40 years. which one of us has more money?

Answer:we both have more money than the people who had to retire within 5 years of the collapse. What, they don’t count?

193 Chaplain  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:54:43am

re: #185 Cato the Elder

Who?

sigh….Strom Thurmond…my bad

194 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:55:00am

re: #183 cliffster

re: #179 Obdicut

Ok, I’ll ask again as I’ve asked many times.. how do you measure the number of filibusters? By the number of publicly declared threats? By simply asking the majority leader? Or by the actual number of filibusters? Because if you use the last one, it’s a very small number. If you use any other, then it’s most unscientific. So - it’s a faulty notion.

The modern filibuster.

195 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:55:08am

re: #173 Obdicut

Since this one isn’t over yet, the current GOPs are being the most obstructionist in history. As you can clearly see.

Why continue with this busted line of argument, dude? Smearing yourself in fail isn’t going to bring any great rewards.

and before them, the previously current Dems held the record…yadda yadda.

it would be interesting if this parliamentary always seemed to trend downward when one particular party was in the minority.

but steadily increasing cloture over time regardless of party is not an indictment of a sole party.

196 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:55:13am

re: #185 Cato the Elder

Who?

Stretch Armstrong Thurman?

197 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:55:27am

re: #189 jamesfirecat

One small problem, what year was the 110th congress in power?

Lets see it was 2007 to 2008… and you say the Republicans had a majority then?

It was 49 dems, 49 Republicans plus Berny Sanders and Joe Liberman…

Well I guess if you count Liberman as a Republican and can call in Dick Cheney as a tie breaker that’s a Republican Majority of sorts…

oh. so who’s fault was it, then?

198 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:55:43am

re: #183 cliffster

Okay. Let’s use number of confirmations being held up. Is that a good measure?

What measure would you prefer to use?

199 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:56:06am

re: #193 Chaplain

sigh…Strom Thurmond…my bad

LOL is your first name Charlie?

200 webevintage  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:56:09am

Looks like Massa is going to be the gift that keeps on giving for Boehner because really, the House has nothing else to do:

[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com…]

201 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:56:34am

re: #194 Jeff In Ohio

Yeah, if y’all want to blame a Democrat, blame Byrd. The dual-track thing fucking sucks.

202 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:56:43am

re: #181 Chaplain

Until next the next congress comes in and does it again. This is just going to keep escalating. It has been escalating since Strong Thurman. Each year the previous congress was “the most obstructionist congress ever!”. Fillibusters used to be rare but haven’t been (since before the Republicans became the minority). Your just crying right now because you dislike what they are doing. When the shoe is on the other foot will you cry as much I wonder?

You know that “since before the Republicans became a minority” thing is odd, because the first real upticks in fillibustering happened in 1971-1972 and 1973-1974…. both years the Republicans were in the minority….

203 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:57:19am

re: #192 torrentprime

Answer:we both have more money than the people who had to retire within 5 years of the collapse. What, they don’t count?

Mmm. bad math.

if they had invested 35 years ago and had to retire within 5 years of the collapse, they’d be sooo much richer than the social security folks.

change the time period all you want in your attempt to win this point. just don’t change the duration.

204 Chaplain  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:57:22am

re: #199 Cato the Elder

LOL is your first name Charlie?

No… my first name is uses spell check and can’t spell. Sigh… I know it was a stupid error to make.

205 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:57:44am

re: #174 jamesfirecat

Since the metric here seems to be geared around filibusters, threat of filibusters, and cloture votes the Pinckney Resolutions probably would not fill the bill since they were passed by majority vote in the House and could be rescinded by same given that they were Standing Rules at best.

What they did was act as a “gag rule” that prevented the House from even *considering* petitions sent to Congress. Initially by a sort of automatic tabling, and eventually preventing official reception of the petitions.

From Wikipedia —

The House passed the Pinckney Resolutions on May 26, 1836, the third of which was known from the beginning as the “gag rule” and passed with a vote of 117 to 68 (The first stated that Congress had no constitutional authority to interfere with slavery in the states and the second that it “ought not” do so in the District of Columbia.)

From the inception of the gag resolutions, Representative (and former President) John Quincy Adams was a central figure in the opposition to the gag rules. He argued that they were a direct violation of the First Amendment right “to petition the Government for a redress of grievances”. A majority of Northern Whigs joined the opposition. Rather than suppress anti-slavery petitions, however, the gag rules only served to offend Americans from Northern states, and dramatically increase the number of petitions.[2] The growing offense to the gag rule, as well as the Panic of 1837, may have contributed to the first Whig majority, in the 27th Congress.

Since the original gag was a resolution, not a standing House Rule, it had to be renewed every session, and Adams and others had free rein until then. In January 1837, the Pinckney Resolutions were substantially renewed, more than a month into the session. The pro-gag forces gradually succeeded in shortening the debate and tightening the gag. In December 1837, the Congress passed the Patton Resolutions, introduced by J. M. Patton of Virginia. In December 1838, the Congress passed the Atherton Gag, composed by Democratic States-Rights Congressman Atherton of New Hampshire, on the first petition day of the session.

In January 1840, the House of Representatives passed the Twenty-first Rule, which greatly changed the nature of the fight - it prohibited even the reception of anti-slavery petitions and was a standing House rule. Before, the pro-slavery forces had to struggle to impose a gag before the anti-slavery forces got the floor. Now men like Adams or Slade were trying to revoke a standing rule. However, it had less support than the original Pinckney gag, passing only by 114 to 108, with substantial opposition among Northern Democrats and even some Southern Whigs, and with serious doubts about its constitutionality. Throughout the gag period, Adams’ “superior talent in using and abusing parliamentary rules” and skill in baiting his enemies into making mistakes, enabled him to evade the rule. The gag was finally rescinded December 3, 1844, by a vote of 108-80, all the Northern and 4 Southern Whigs voting for repeal, along with 78% of the Northern Democrats.[3]

In the Senate in 1836, John C. Calhoun attempted to introduce a gag rule. The Senate rejected this proposal, but agreed on a method which, while technically not violating the right to petition, would achieve the same effect. If an anti-slavery petition was presented, the Senate would vote not on whether to accept the petition but on whether to consider the question of receiving the petition.[4]

Obstruction of a different sort I guess.

206 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:57:55am

re: #201 Obdicut

Yeah, if y’all want to blame a Democrat, blame Byrd. The dual-track thing fucking sucks.

heh. updinged. tru dat.

207 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:58:02am

re: #198 Obdicut

Okay. Let’s use number of confirmations being held up. Is that a good measure?

What measure would you prefer to use?

I have a better idea… let’s just call the current flock of GOP in the house and senate as the most obstructionist in history.

Too bad, so sad. Stop whining. You had all the tools you needed to ignore that obstruction, to make it look silly, to use it to your advantage. And you’ve blown it.

I need that health care.

208 avanti  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:58:19am

re: #200 webevintage

Looks like Massa is going to be the gift that keeps on giving for Boehner because really, the House has nothing else to do:

[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com…]

I posted earlier, the GOP wanted a investigation, and the bill passed with only one descending vote.

209 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:58:19am

re: #196 Mad Al-Jaffee

Doc Ellis.

210 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:58:30am

re: #204 Chaplain

No… my first name is uses spell check and can’t spell. Sigh… I know it was a stupid error to make.

I’m just ribbin’ ya, dude. It’s part of the initiation around here.

211 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:58:52am

re: #207 Walter L. Newton

Who do you think I am, Walter? Who do you think you’re talking to when you say ‘you’?

212 cliffster  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:59:08am

re: #204 Chaplain

No… my first name is uses spell check and can’t spell. Sigh… I know it was a stupid error to make.

It’s called Spell Check, not Stupid Check. That screws it for me.

213 jamesfirecat  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:59:24am

re: #195 Aceofwhat?

and before them, the previously current Dems held the record…yadda yadda.

it would be interesting if this parliamentary always seemed to trend downward when one particular party was in the minority.

but steadily increasing cloture over time regardless of party is not an indictment of a sole party.

[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com…]

Look at that graph and tell me what it means when there’s only one time Democrats set a new high for how many fillibusters there are per congress and seven times Republicans do it….

214 avanti  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:59:46am

More tapes from the ACORN guy, oh goodie./

tapes.

215 cliffster  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 11:59:59am

re: #198 Obdicut

Okay. Let’s use number of confirmations being held up. Is that a good measure?

What measure would you prefer to use?

Fine by me. I would ask the question of - why?

216 Chaplain  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:00:01pm

re: #212 cliffster

It’s called Spell Check, not Stupid Check. That screws it for me.

Are we so perfect now?

217 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:00:07pm

re: #211 Obdicut

Who do you think I am, Walter? Who do you think you’re talking to when you say ‘you’?

Sorry, too narrow of a term. Correction, the Dems.

218 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:00:15pm

re: #200 webevintage

Looks like Massa is going to be the gift that keeps on giving for Boehner because really, the House has nothing else to do:

[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com…]

I seriously doubt it’s going to lead anywhere. Massa bailed just a day or two before an investigation into his antics was released. The Dem leadership probably knew about this for a while. Everybody probably knew but nothing could really be done until the investigations were wrapped up. The Republicans probably knew and didn’t mind because he was a vote against healthcare. I seriously doubt there was some sort of grand conspiracy.

219 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:01:01pm

re: #218 Killgore Trout

I seriously doubt it’s going to lead anywhere. Massa bailed just a day or two before an investigation into his antics was released. The Dem leadership probably knew about this for a while. Everybody probably knew but nothing could really be done until the investigations were wrapped up. The Republicans probably knew and didn’t mind because he was a vote against healthcare. I seriously doubt there was some sort of grand conspiracy.

Except to embarras Glenn Beck…

/

220 torrentprime  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:01:34pm

re: #203 Aceofwhat?

Mmm. bad math.

if they had invested 35 years ago and had to retire within 5 years of the collapse, they’d be sooo much richer than the social security folks.

change the time period all you want in your attempt to win this point. just don’t change the duration.

So do we rig the math and pay those retiring now but only switched to the new system now/whenever we make the changeover what they “would have” gotten from a free market solution?

221 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:01:40pm

re: #212 cliffster

It’s called Spell Check, not Stupid Check. That screws it for me.

Think of the bandwidth a functional Stupid Check would save.

Oh, the pixelation!

222 cliffster  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:01:44pm

re: #216 Chaplain

Are we so perfect now?

Amazing how we ever got anything done when it was just a typewriter and a piece of paper. Tap tap tap. No backspace. Misspell a word? Take out a clean sheet of paper.. from the top.. tap tap tap

223 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:01:58pm

re: #213 jamesfirecat

Look at that graph and tell me what it means when there’s only one time Democrats set a new high for how many fillibusters there are per congress and seven times Republicans do it…


For me it’s not about the amount of obstruction but rather the timing. We are in a very serious crisis which makes it much worse in my opinion.

224 albusteve  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:02:11pm

re: #209 Jeff In Ohio

Doc Ellis.

Doc Severinsen

225 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:02:17pm

re: #216 Chaplain

Are we so perfect now?

He was poking fun at himself.

226 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:03:29pm

re: #213 jamesfirecat

[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com…]

Look at that graph and tell me what it means when there’s only one time Democrats set a new high for how many fillibusters there are per congress and seven times Republicans do it…

before i proceed…let me make sure my foundation is sound.

can any loon request that cloture be filed to end debate?

227 Tigger2005  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:03:55pm

re: #57 Lidane

Completely OT, but this is huge:

Half of Kansas City’s schools to close by fall

They’re closing 29 out of 61 schools to keep from going bankrupt.

Wow. Just…wow.

Laying off over 200 teachers too, I think. I live near KC.

228 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:04:08pm

The DEMs can try to blame the obstructionist GOP for their own lack of party discipline from now until the cows come home, but it simply will not wash. While the DEMS look for excuses for their own historic legislative failure to utilize their indisputable congressional majorities and control of the WH, the pages of the calendar keep relentlessly turning.
Epic Dem fail.

229 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:04:16pm

re: #173 Obdicut

Since this one isn’t over yet, the current GOPs are being the most obstructionist in history. As you can clearly see.

Why continue with this busted line of argument, dude? Smearing yourself in fail isn’t going to bring any great rewards.

I’m joining the thread late, but isn’t that a wee bit disingenuous? Let’s use health care as an example. In spite of the stance of the GOP, if ALL of the Dems in the House and Senate believed STRONGLY in the Obama Care program, it could pass. I think one of the things that we really are seeing is that many Dems have misgivings about the health care plan and are looking for just enough GOP support to give hesitant Dem voters political cover if they vote for a poor bill. Then the “conservative” Dems can say “plenty of Republicans voted for it too.” What this really shows me is that a lot of Dems have issues with the bill and don’t want to ruin their political careers by voting for it with NO political cover from the right. And it is somewhat unfair to call that “obstructionism” from the GOP.

230 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:04:17pm

re: #215 cliffster

Why is it important if one party is using every method at its disposal to prevent legislation from being passed, confirmations going through, etc?

Well, I guess because we actually need to do things, like health care reform, banking regulation reform, we need those appointees to do their jobs. We need a sane opposition that asks for concessions, gets them, and then votes for the compromise bill.

I understand that people want limited government. But broken, nonfunctional government is not limited government.

231 cliffster  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:04:56pm

re: #221 Cato the Elder

Think of the bandwidth a functional Stupid Check would save.

Oh, the pixelation!

Hardware stupid check built into every router. Routers would need a big heat sink though.

232 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:05:19pm

re: #229 _RememberTonyC

It already passed.

And I’m calling obstructionism, obstructionism.

233 albusteve  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:05:30pm

re: #227 Tigger2005

Laying off over 200 teachers too, I think. I live near KC.

the schools are only half full…something had to be done

234 albusteve  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:06:07pm

re: #228 Spare O’Lake

The DEMs can try to blame the obstructionist GOP for their own lack of party discipline from now until the cows come home, but it simply will not wash. While the DEMS look for excuses for their own historic legislative failure to utilize their indisputable congressional majorities and control of the WH, the pages of the calendar keep relentlessly turning.
Epic Dem fail.

crisis!

235 Chaplain  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:06:10pm

re: #225 Cato the Elder

He was poking fun at himself.

re: #230 Obdicut

Why is it important if one party is using every method at its disposal to prevent legislation from being passed, confirmations going through, etc?

Well, I guess because we actually need to do things, like health care reform, banking regulation reform, we need those appointees to do their jobs. We need a sane opposition that asks for concessions, gets them, and then votes for the compromise bill.

I understand that people want limited government. But broken, nonfunctional government is not limited government.

Well what do you propose we do about disagreement exactly? Settle it like Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr did?

236 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:06:35pm

re: #220 torrentprime

So do we rig the math and pay those retiring now but only switched to the new system now/whenever we make the changeover what they “would have” gotten from a free market solution?

THAT is a great question. At least, once we acknowledge that over any extended period of time (40yrs +), a very safe agglomeration of investments in the market will pummel social security returns.

Once agreed on that point…how we get there is fascinating, IMHO. However, it does require us to agree on the prior point.

For one, I am willing to forfeit some of my SS returns and work longer so that my children and your children have the ability to grow up in a world where they have transitioned.

Does that help? money in my mouth. (ech. money never belongs there…disgusting/)

237 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:07:21pm

re: #235 Chaplain

I’m sorry, you’ve directly lied for no apparent reason, so I have no inclination to take you at all seriously. Your arguments suck, and you’ll lie to help yourself.

238 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:07:28pm

re: #190 Obdicut

Completely false.

Look again:

[Link: www.mcclatchydc.com…]

Does that show a steady rise from year to year? No.

That you’ve resorted to direct lies so quickly doesn’t speak well of you.

Look carefully at the graph -

notice the drop off after the 2006 election. That was when Reid got in the majority with 51 members. [Link: en.wikipedia.org…] Prior to that he was minority leader with 45. There is a steady rise up to 2006, with each year being “more than ever before”. Once in the majority, Reid could simply use procedural power to stall any initiative from the White House while Republicans, while in the minority, don’t worry as much about something they don’t like getting signed by Bush. So you have a drop off, but Senators are parochial in nature so they continue to use it as they need to.

And, yes, when the majority extends to both houses and the white house you can expect a spike in filibusters.

As for this term, the black bar that goes off the chart is a projection made back in July - a lot has changed since then (like the Democrat super majority going away). Invocation of a filibuster is different from a threat, and those threats are made innumerable times by just about every Senator as they wheel and deal, so I’d like to see the update. A majority leader will do something when the threat is credible, meaning that you can get a situation where more threats happen while fewer actual filibusters occur.

Just the same, it would not surprise me that the trend continues onward and upward regardless of which party holds power where for reasons stated earlier.

239 lawhawk  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:08:27pm

The President and his supporters are busy trying to get House Democrats on board with the health care proposal. They’ve been lobbying this one NY democrat from upstate.

With a final vote on the measure expected this month, Rep. Scott Murphy, D-Glens Falls, is under a lot of pressure to support whatever bill is presented. He voted against a bill last year.

Murphy was invited last week to the White House to meet with President Obama–for whom the passage of a bill is a major priority–and will meet on Sunday with members of the Working Families Party, a spokesman for the party said. The WFP was soliciting signatures for a petition to present to Murphy.

And today, President Obama’s Organizing for America group sent an e-mail (after the jump) to its registered supporters in the 20th District, urging them to call Murphy’s office.

“Please call Rep. Murphy today, express your support for health reform, and say we’re prepared to stand together — OFA supporters in New York have pledged 602,636 hours to volunteer for members of Congress who support reform,” the e-mail says.

240 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:08:29pm

re: #232 Obdicut

It already passed.

And I’m calling obstructionism, obstructionism.

the bill passed? it’s a done deal? then there’s no obstruction, is there!

241 Chaplain  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:09:00pm

re: #237 Obdicut

I’m sorry, you’ve directly lied for no apparent reason, so I have no inclination to take you at all seriously. Your arguments suck, and you’ll lie to help yourself.

THIS

re: #238 karmic_inquisitor

Look carefully at the graph -

notice the drop off after the 2006 election. That was when Reid got in the majority with 51 members. [Link: en.wikipedia.org…] Prior to that he was minority leader with 45. There is a steady rise up to 2006, with each year being “more than ever before”. Once in the majority, Reid could simply use procedural power to stall any initiative from the White House while Republicans, while in the minority, don’t worry as much about something they don’t like getting signed by Bush. So you have a drop off, but Senators are parochial in nature so they continue to use it as they need to.

And, yes, when the majority extends to both houses and the white house you can expect a spike in filibusters.

As for this term, the black bar that goes off the chart is a projection made back in July - a lot has changed since then (like the Democrat super majority going away). Invocation of a filibuster is different from a threat, and those threats are made innumerable times by just about every Senator as they wheel and deal, so I’d like to see the update. A majority leader will do something when the threat is credible, meaning that you can get a situation where more threats happen while fewer actual filibusters occur.

Just the same, it would not surprise me that the trend continues onward and upward regardless of which party holds power where for reasons stated earlier.

242 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:09:02pm

can any one senator filibuster and thus require cloture? the answer to that question would alter my opinion on this somewhat…help, friends…

243 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:09:08pm

re: #238 karmic_inquisitor

Prior to that he was minority leader with 45. There is a steady rise up to 2006, with each year being “more than ever before”.

How do you look at a graph where sometimes there are fewer filibusters than the year previous, and make that claim? I just don’t get it.

244 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:10:12pm

re: #223 Killgore Trout

For me it’s not about the amount of obstruction but rather the timing. We are in a very serious crisis which makes it much worse in my opinion.

With regards to HCR, though, less obvious, odious horse trading might have helped. (What’s up, Nebraska!!) Juuust sayin’!!

245 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:10:45pm

re: #240 _RememberTonyC

A house bill passed, and a senate bill passed.

This is getting really tiresome. I’m going to drop this non-argument. The facts are what they are. The GOP is not only being obstructionist, they’re proudly proclaiming it. The GOP keeps skidding farther and farther down. This is a bad thing for any conservative. It’s a bad thing for the nation.

246 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:12:11pm

re: #229 _RememberTonyC

I’m joining the thread late, but isn’t that a wee bit disingenuous? Let’s use health care as an example. In spite of the stance of the GOP, if ALL of the Dems in the House and Senate believed STRONGLY in the Obama Care program, it could pass. I think one of the things that we really are seeing is that many Dems have misgivings about the health care plan and are looking for just enough GOP support to give hesitant Dem voters political cover if they vote for a poor bill. Then the “conservative” Dems can say “plenty of Republicans voted for it too.” What this really shows me is that a lot of Dems have issues with the bill and don’t want to ruin their political careers by voting for it with NO political cover from the right. And it is somewhat unfair to call that “obstructionism” from the GOP.

In a nutshell, it is the Dems who are the obstrucionists.

247 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:12:48pm

re: #246 Spare O’Lake

Obstructionists

248 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:14:16pm

re: #245 Obdicut

A house bill passed, and a senate bill passed.

This is getting really tiresome. I’m going to drop this non-argument. The facts are what they are. The GOP is not only being obstructionist, they’re proudly proclaiming it. The GOP keeps skidding farther and farther down. This is a bad thing for any conservative. It’s a bad thing for the nation.


since I’m not a partisan i see this more clearly than partisans do. and you need a bit more clarity in your view. you seem pretty locked into the “dems good repubs bad” mode. that is unhealthy …

249 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:15:36pm

gotta run to a meeting … later folks

We’ll talk later, “Obdi.”

250 albusteve  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:15:45pm

re: #245 Obdicut

A house bill passed, and a senate bill passed.

This is getting really tiresome. I’m going to drop this non-argument. The facts are what they are. The GOP is not only being obstructionist, they’re proudly proclaiming it. The GOP keeps skidding farther and farther down. This is a bad thing for any conservative. It’s a bad thing for the nation.

the behavior of the democrats is bad for the nation…they have a fucked up mess on their hands, they are entirely responsible for…no brainer

251 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:17:07pm

re: #245 Obdicut

A house bill passed, and a senate bill passed.

This is getting really tiresome. I’m going to drop this non-argument. The facts are what they are. The GOP is not only being obstructionist, they’re proudly proclaiming it. The GOP keeps skidding farther and farther down. This is a bad thing for any conservative. It’s a bad thing for the nation.

Dream on. It’s the right of centre Dems who have and are still obstructing Obama’s HCR agenda from passing through Congress.
And it’s the Dems who will pay the price this fall.

252 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:17:59pm

re: #245 Obdicut

A house bill passed, and a senate bill passed.

This is getting really tiresome. I’m going to drop this non-argument. The facts are what they are. The GOP is not only being obstructionist, they’re proudly proclaiming it. The GOP keeps skidding farther and farther down. This is a bad thing for any conservative. It’s a bad thing for the nation.

bah. it’s tiresome because its value is too closely related to the specific matter at hand to be debated so broadly.

filibustering either President’s nominees? crap.
filibustering either party’s plan to make enormous infrastructure changes (soc. security, HCR, etc)? more understandable.

seems like a very broad discussion on it is going to fail by its nature…

253 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:18:11pm

re: #248 _RememberTonyC

Yeah. That’s totally why I’ve said that the Democrats have fucked up the campaign for the health bill, have moved way too slowly on gay rights, have screwed up ideas about gun control, and are, in general, far more responsive to special interests than they are to their constituents.

It’s because I’m so partisan.

The Democrats are at least trying to actually do something. The GOP has nothing to offer at the moment. What’s more, the GOP is actively promoting climate change denial. Their current incarnation sucks. It’s not partisan to acknowledge how badly the GOP is failing.

I’m out of this thread.

254 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:18:39pm

re: #243 Obdicut

How do you look at a graph where sometimes there are fewer filibusters than the year previous, and make that claim? I just don’t get it.

…. 40 - 48 - 53 - 58 - 58 -…

All leading up to Reid getting the top job (which Chuck Schumer is getting ready to take away - something he has been working on for some time).

255 Chaplain  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:20:56pm

re: #254 karmic_inquisitor

… 40 - 48 - 53 - 58 - 58 -…

All leading up to Reid getting the top job (which Chuck Schumer is getting ready to take away - something he has been working on for some time).

Stop making sense… just lie like I do… apparently.

Sigh… and this is why nothing ever gets done. We can never disagree without making the other person into a monster.

256 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:20:58pm

re: #254 karmic_inquisitor

… 40 - 48 - 53 - 58 - 58 -…

All leading up to Reid getting the top job (which Chuck Schumer is getting ready to take away - something he has been working on for some time).


Just re-read what you wrote - I meant to say that each year’s number was the “highest ever” leading up to Reid getting the job. Sorry if my original comment said otherwise.

Point is that the filibuster has proven handy in getting to the top.

257 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:24:37pm

re: #230 Obdicut

Why is it important if one party is using every method at its disposal to prevent legislation from being passed, confirmations going through, etc?

Well, I guess because we actually need to do things, like health care reform, banking regulation reform, we need those appointees to do their jobs. We need a sane opposition that asks for concessions, gets them, and then votes for the compromise bill.

I understand that people want limited government. But broken, nonfunctional government is not limited government.

Agree. I just don’t see the behavior ending because those who want power in Washington have found the path of least resistance to power. Ironically, it takes the form of blocking the path of those in power.

258 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:27:36pm

For those who feebly try to shift the blame to the broken and fractured GOP, I suggest they instead put some heat on the pathetic Dem losers who seem intent on frittering away their bicameral legislative majority in an orgy of internal dissension and inaction.
Hey Dems, you won the election and you own the EPIC FAIL.

259 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:29:46pm

re: #253 Obdicut

The Democrats are at least trying to actually do something.

They are circle jerking themselves towards the edge of the electoral cliff…that’s what they are doing.

260 Chaplain  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:33:16pm

re: #259 Spare O’Lake

The Democrats are at least trying to actually do something.

They are circle jerking themselves towards the edge of the electoral cliff…that’s what they are doing.

Well, for what it is worth, I would like to see this thing come to a vote so that we can get, on record, who was for it and who was against it. I just have a feeling between the Republicans and the Democrats that isn’t going to happen.

261 garhighway  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 1:21:15pm

re: #190 Obdicut

Completely false.

Look again:

[Link: www.mcclatchydc.com…]

Does that show a steady rise from year to year? No.

That you’ve resorted to direct lies so quickly doesn’t speak well of you.

OMG! It’s…. the hockey stick!

You know what this means: allegations of falsified data (gleaned from hacked e-mails) are bound to follow!

262 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 1:59:30pm

re: #253 Obdicut

Yeah. That’s totally why I’ve said that the Democrats have fucked up the campaign for the health bill, have moved way too slowly on gay rights, have screwed up ideas about gun control, and are, in general, far more responsive to special interests than they are to their constituents.

It’s because I’m so partisan.

The Democrats are at least trying to actually do something. The GOP has nothing to offer at the moment. What’s more, the GOP is actively promoting climate change denial. Their current incarnation sucks. It’s not partisan to acknowledge how badly the GOP is failing.

I’m out of this thread.


Obdi … I know you left the thread, but in case you circle back, I’d like to say that criticizing Dems you feel are not “progressive” enough does not make you non partisan. A better test would be for you to find some GOP types that you like and agree with and cite those examples. And I don’t recall you ever doing that on your own. You may try to do it now in response to my post, but unless it’s organic and comes from your heart, it is not convincing. I noticed in the next thread, you asked if there are “any” GOP types (other than Huntsman) with potential for the presidency who have both integrity and sane positions? The fact that you made that post suggests you think the answer is “no.” And I see that as a very partisan position if you feel the ONLY Republican worthy of the Presidency is Jon Huntsman. I mean, a true non partisan would see more good (albeit imperfect) candidates in the GOP than that.

Peace …

263 RogueOne  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 2:02:34pm

I’m late to the party but I posted this at 630 this morning:

[Link: www.mediabistro.com…]


TWT Says Absolutely No Way to McCain
By Betsy Rothstein on Mar 10, 2010 03:35 PM

Newsroom sources say Robert Stacy McCain “doesn’t have a chance in hell” in returning to TWT. This decision was made Tuesday when, sources say, McCain was there seeking a job.

Update: “Whatever. I had dropped by to see old friends. I freelanced that story for them. I do freelancing all the time. I didn’t go there to seek a job.”

264 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 2:11:16pm

re: #262 _RememberTonyC

Despite the fact that nobody else was able to offer anyone besides Mitch Daniels, it’s obviously my fault because I’m partisan. It’s not that there’s a total fucking lack of good GOP candidates for president who aren’t busy sucking up to the religious right.

Your thinking is way skewed.

And my complaint with the Democrats is not that they’re not progressive enough, it’s that they’re ineffective. Unless you think gay rights are a ‘progressive’ issue, rather than a human rights issue that any real ‘conservative’ ought to get behind.

265 RogueOne  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 2:28:32pm

re: #264 Obdicut

+1 for any reference to Mitch Daniels.

266 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 2:33:46pm

re: #265 RogueOne

The thing is, the only place I hear about him is on LGF. I don’t think he’s got that much support in the GOP in general.

I also don’t like a cut to the property tax balanced by a raise to the sales tax. That’s regressive as hell, and frozen property taxes have caused us enormous fucking headaches here in California.

But nobody can be perfect— he appears to lack Socon credentials, which is awesome.

267 RogueOne  Thu, Mar 11, 2010 3:04:31pm

re: #266 Obdicut

The thing is, the only place I hear about him is on LGF. I don’t think he’s got that much support in the GOP in general.

I also don’t like a cut to the property tax balanced by a raise to the sales tax. That’s regressive as hell, and frozen property taxes have caused us enormous fucking headaches here in California.

But nobody can be perfect— he appears to lack Socon credentials, which is awesome.

There was an internal state issue with property taxes that came to a head a few years ago. They had redone the method for figuring the property tax and kept pushing it back until just before he took office. Property tax rates, in a lot of cases, quadrupled. They had to do something or there would have been a revolt.


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