Record-Shattering Warm Winter Stuns Canadian Climate Scientists

Environment • Views: 4,555

Even as the right wing screams louder than ever that anthropogenic global warming is a “hoax,” climate scientists in Canada are appalled at the warmest winter on record: Wacky winter a signal of years to come: Climatologist.

Of course, you already know what the climate change deniers are going to say — these tricksy Canadian scientists are obviously in on the plot.

From the balmy Arctic, to the open water of the St. Lawrence and snowless western fields, this winter has been the warmest and driest in Canadian record books.

Environment Canada scientists report that winter 2009/10 was 4 C above normal, making it the warmest since nationwide records were first kept in 1948. It was also the driest winter on the 63-year record, with precipitation 22 per cent below normal nationally, and down 60 per cent in parts of Alberta, Saskatchewan and Ontario.

It’s beyond shocking,” David Phillips, a senior climatologist with Environment Canada, told Canwest News Tuesday. Records have been shattered from “coast to coast to coast.”

“It is truly a remarkable situation,” says Phillips, noting that he’s seen nothing like it in his 40 years of weather watching. He also warns that “the winter than wasn’t” may have set the stage for potentially “horrific” water shortages, insect infestations and wildfires this summer.

As much of Asia, Europe and the U.S. shivered through and shovelled out of freak winter storms, Phillips says Canada was left on the sidelines.

“It’s like winter was cancelled in this country,” he says.

Jump to bottom

327 comments
1 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 8:47:46am

I suspect the circular air currents that normally keep the really frigid air contained more to the poles are getting whacked out.

I’m sure Beck will be reporting on this tonight with exquisite chalk board diagrams.

2 Jadespring  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 8:47:58am

Thank you for highlighting this Charles.

I can attest that it’s been a wacky winter where I live.

3 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 8:48:37am

orange groves in Saskatoon….groovy

4 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 8:50:13am

re: #3 albusteve

Horrific water shortages, Steve.

Oranges need lots of water.

5 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 8:52:49am

re: #4 Obdicut

Horrific water shortages, Steve.

Oranges need lots of water.

there are oceans of water out there…if there are water shortages it’s because people refuse to resolve the problem

6 Varek Raith  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 8:54:19am

re: #5 albusteve

there are oceans of water out there…if there are water shortages it’s because people refuse to resolve the problem

Desalinization is veeerrryyy expensive. Good luck convincing people to pay up the wazoo for water.

7 Jadespring  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 8:54:42am

Yesterday the last of the snow finally melted off my garden beds. I was rather shocked to see bulbs already up and growing. They’re at least a month ahead of schedule. Lots of perennials that normally experience winter kill in my location are still green.

As someone that grows food for a living I’m already preparing for a interesting and probably less predictable bug and pest year because of the lack of winter kill.

8 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 8:54:43am

Proof that global warming is a hoax:
[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk…]

9 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 8:56:08am

re: #6 Varek Raith

Desalinization is veeerrryyy expensive. Good luck convincing people to pay up the wazoo for water.

let them die of thirst?

10 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 8:56:29am

My wife didn’t want to move up north because she said it’s too cold. A lot she knows.
//

11 HoosierHoops  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 8:56:38am

re: #7 Jadespring

Yesterday the last of the snow finally melted off my garden beds. I was rather shocked to see bulbs already up and growing. They’re at least a month ahead of schedule. Lots of perennials that normally experience winter kill in my location are still green.

As someone that grows food for a living I’m already preparing for a interesting and probably less predictable bug and pest year because of the lack of winter kill.

The only important thing is that the ice and snow is melted on the pool cover…
Springtime is almost here!

12 Jadespring  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 8:56:54am

re: #5 albusteve

there are oceans of water out there…if there are water shortages it’s because people refuse to resolve the problem

I hope you aren’t that ignorant to realize that there’s actually a huge swath of country including the major bread baskets that aren’t anywhere near the freaking ocean. Yeesh.

13 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 8:56:56am

“Luckily we have an electric hob so I just turned off the heat, but then I lifted up the bacon and there was JC looking back at me.”

14 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 8:57:57am

re: #13 BigPapa

“Luckily we have an electric hob so I just turned off the heat, but then I lifted up the bacon and there was JC looking back at me.”

Did he wink?

15 Varek Raith  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 8:58:24am

re: #9 albusteve

let them die of thirst?

No. But, you know how people are. We get all bent outta shape about having to pay more for anything, or spending massive amounts of money for huge projects. People are dumb.
Cynic mode off.

16 Kronocide  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 8:59:41am

re: #14 NJDhockeyfan

Did he wink?

No, he said “I just saved 15% by switching to GEICO.”

18 SixDegrees  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 8:59:52am

Seems to me this would clearly fall into the “weather, not climate” category.

19 Varek Raith  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:01:01am

re: #18 SixDegrees

Based on…?

20 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:02:31am

re: #18 SixDegrees

Seems to me this would clearly fall into the “weather, not climate” category.

When the winter was super cold and record snow was falling I read stories claiming it was caused by global warming, global cooling, or it was just mother nature. The record warming in Canada will have the same stories come out soon enough.

21 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:03:25am

re: #7 Jadespring

Yesterday the last of the snow finally melted off my garden beds. I was rather shocked to see bulbs already up and growing. They’re at least a month ahead of schedule. Lots of perennials that normally experience winter kill in my location are still green.

As someone that grows food for a living I’m already preparing for a interesting and probably less predictable bug and pest year because of the lack of winter kill.

Here in Atlanta my daffodils were a month late in emerging. And we had three separate snow days, which, with due deference to the northern neighbors, passes for severe in these parts. So maybe the cold air currents are indeed out of whack.

22 Jadespring  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:04:05am

re: #19 Varek Raith

Based on…?


Canada isn’t really big enough to count as having a ‘climate’ category. It’s such a small land mass that it only counts as a localized weather phenomenon. No biggy.

///

23 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:04:18am

re: #17 NJDhockeyfan

‘Tiger Woods’ Makes ‘South Park’ Appearance

Not a surprise. It’s not something they’d ignore.

24 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:04:46am

re: #12 Jadespring

I hope you aren’t that ignorant to realize that there’s actually a huge swath of country including the major bread baskets that aren’t anywhere near the freaking ocean. Yeesh.

not much of an insult…you another one of those pessimists?…where do you think your gas, oil and electricity come from?…next door?…check out LAs water delivery system…I hope you aren’t that ignorant to realize it’s very much the same thing

25 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:05:40am

re: #12 Jadespring

I hope you aren’t that ignorant to realize that there’s actually a huge swath of country including the major bread baskets that aren’t anywhere near the freaking ocean. Yeesh.

Once the BushRoveHalliburton earthquake/tsunami machine sinks California into the ocean, that’ll be fixed.

26 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:05:55am

re: #18 SixDegrees

Seems to me this would clearly fall into the “weather, not climate” category.

Is there a difference?

27 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:06:51am

re: #15 Varek Raith

No. But, you know how people are. We get all bent outta shape about having to pay more for anything, or spending massive amounts of money for huge projects. People are dumb.
Cynic mode off.

oil used to be $10 a barrel not that long ago…I remember nickle candy bars…that’s not the point…it’s already close to do or die in some places

28 darthstar  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:06:56am

It’s been an epic ski season in the Sierras. Just got 19 inches of powder on Friday—sadly, I didn’t make it up yesterday. But January was the warmest on record globally, so I know a great season here doesn’t mean it is the same everywhere. I was surprised during the olympics at how little snow they had in BC…and 40-50 degree days during the cross country races…insane. Slogging through slush…feh.

29 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:08:17am

Government rebuked over global warming nursery rhyme adverts

The Advertising Standards Authority (ASA) ruled that the adverts – which were based on the children’s poems Jack and Jill and Rub-A-Dub-Dub – made exaggerated claims about the threat to Britain from global warming.

In definitely asserting that climate change would cause flooding and drought the adverts went beyond mainstream scientific consensus, the watchdog said.

It noted that predictions about the potential global impact of global warming made by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) “involved uncertainties” that the adverts failed to reflect.

The two posters created on behalf of the Department of Energy and Climate Change juxtaposed adapted extracts from the nursery rhymes with prose warnings about the dangers of global warning.

One began: “Jack and Jill went up the hill to fetch a pail of water. There was none as extreme weather due to climate change had caused a drought.” Beneath was written: “Extreme weather conditions such as flooding, heat waves and storms will become more frequent and intense.”

The second advert read: “Rub a dub dub, three men in a tub — a necessary course of action due to flash flooding caused by climate change.” It was captioned: “Climate change is happening. Temperature and sea levels are rising. Extreme weather events such as storms, floods and heat waves will become more frequent and intense. If we carry on at this rate, life in 25 years could be very different.”

Upholding complaints from members of the public, the ASA said that in both instances the text accompanying the rhymes should have been couched in softer language.

30 MandyManners  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:10:42am

re: #29 NJDhockeyfan

Government rebuked over global warming nursery rhyme adverts

a television and cinema advert in which a father read his daughter a nightmarish bedtime story about a world blighted by climate change

Yeah, let’s scare the snot out of little kids.

31 Jadespring  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:11:01am

re: #21 The Sanity Inspector

Here in Atlanta my daffodils were a month late in emerging. And we had three separate snow days, which, with due deference to the northern neighbors, passes for severe in these parts. So maybe the cold air currents are indeed out of whack.

That’s the speculation that I’ve heard from climate scientists. The normal currents were really out of the realm of the norm. Of course the question are is this something that switching on a more permanent basis or some sort of bizzare NA climate year. Unfortunately it’s very difficult to say for sure until more years go by. One of the biggest problems that I’ve heard climate scientists on the news talk about is the difficultly with things that are happening that just don’t mesh with models that have been used for years and years. Parameters are changing all over the place.

32 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:11:41am

re: #30 MandyManners

a television and cinema advert in which a father read his daughter a nightmarish bedtime story about a world blighted by climate change

Yeah, let’s scare the snot out of little kids.

It’s good for mother earth.

33 MandyManners  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:13:44am

re: #32 NJDhockeyfan

It’s good for mother earth.

All bow to Gaia?

34 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:14:00am

a mild, sunny, 55 degrees in the river valley where I live….I can grab my skis, drive across the river to the foot of the Sandias, take the tram to the top and look out east over the backside of the mountains and there is 5 feet of snow….chairlifts purring away….only in Albuquerque

35 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:16:08am

re: #34 albusteve

a mild, sunny, 55 degrees in the river valley where I live…I can grab my skis, drive across the river to the foot of the Sandias, take the tram to the top and look out east over the backside of the mountains and there is 5 feet of snow…chairlifts purring away…only in Albuquerque

Er… only? What is this stuff I see all around me… whipped cream? The bumper to bumper traffic on Interstate 70, what’s that, evacuation. The ski industry (and snowpack) is good in Colorado.

36 darthstar  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:16:59am

OT: I am tempted to download that Cattlemax software being advertised in this thread. I love cows…eat ‘em regularly…just don’t have the acreage to raise them…but still, “cattle management software”…who would have thought about that? We always used to just round them up when I was a kid and check them out one by one.

37 darthstar  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:18:09am

re: #34 albusteve

a mild, sunny, 55 degrees in the river valley where I live…I can grab my skis, drive across the river to the foot of the Sandias, take the tram to the top and look out east over the backside of the mountains and there is 5 feet of snow…chairlifts purring away…only in Albuquerque

What the hell are you doing here then? Go!

38 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:18:17am

Just to reiterate:

39 Jadespring  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:18:56am

re: #24 albusteve

not much of an insult…you another one of those pessimists?…where do you think your gas, oil and electricity come from?…next door?…check out LAs water delivery system…I hope you aren’t that ignorant to realize it’s very much the same thing

No I’m not. I just happen to know geography and have a pretty good understanding of where this article is talking about when it bring up water shortages It’s just ridiculous to suggest that ‘delsalinization’ is going to solve the problem of shortages in the plains because of poor snowpack. I suppose if you would be fine with spending trillions of dollars to build pipelines and plants through the rockies or down from the arctic ocean or thousands of miles overland from the Atlantic this your suggestion might have some merit. Oh and if you have no problem with your basic food costs going through the roof then sure lets go with your suggestion.

40 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:20:31am

re: #35 Walter L. Newton

Er… only? What is this stuff I see all around me… whipped cream? The bumper to bumper traffic on Interstate 70, what’s that, evacuation. The ski industry (and snowpack) is good in Colorado.

the entire Sangre de Cristo range has a ton of snow, all the way down to Santa Fe…I don’t know if it’s a record, but business is still booming…SF has a 5ft base and new powder almost every night or so

41 seltzer123  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:21:25am

Here is a link to a GREAT lecture by Richard Alley (a member of the National Academy of Sciences) in which he discusses the historical relationship between CO2 and temperature.

[Link: www.agu.org…]

42 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:23:48am

re: #37 darthstar

What the hell are you doing here then? Go!

I haven’t skied in two years now….got a bad leg, and skiing is out of the question for now, I’ve probably have made my last run…that was up at Purgatory

43 SixDegrees  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:24:17am

re: #26 Walter L. Newton

Is there a difference?

Unclear, apparently. The dividing line often seems to lie at whatever point is convenient to bolster one particular view or the other.

44 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:24:31am

re: #39 Jadespring

No I’m not. I just happen to know geography and have a pretty good understanding of where this article is talking about when it bring up water shortages It’s just ridiculous to suggest that ‘delsalinization’ is going to solve the problem of shortages in the plains because of poor snowpack. I suppose if you would be fine with spending trillions of dollars to build pipelines and plants through the rockies or down from the arctic ocean or thousands of miles overland from the Atlantic this your suggestion might have some merit. Oh and if you have no problem with your basic food costs going through the roof then sure lets go with your suggestion.

okay…what do you suggest?

45 lostlakehiker  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:28:21am

re: #1 BigPapa

I suspect the circular air currents that normally keep the really frigid air contained more to the poles are getting whacked out.

I’m sure Beck will be reporting on this tonight with exquisite chalk board diagrams.

This was already established earlier this winter. Not that these currents are now permanently turned off, but that this winter, for whatever reason, was a departure from the norm.

When the earth as a whole has a toastier CO2 blanket, but winter in Ohio is particularly severe, there must inevitably be somewhere else that has a milder winter. It might have been Siberia instead of Canada, but something somewhere had to give.

This Canadian story shouldn’t be taken as a sign that the earth is warming suddenly and dramatically, any more than our own unusually severe winter is a sign that global warming has been canceled. Even as the earth gradually warms, right on schedule and just as predicted by science, there will still be weather. There will be droughts and heat waves and blizzards and shockingly cold winters, some years and some places. It’s just that the severe summers will come a little more often, and then quite a bit more often, while the severe winters will come a little less often, and then so rarely that we will begin to doubt that Washington could ever have had a problem with ice in the Delaware river.

Gambling addicts cannot get past the trees to see the forest. They see their intermittent winning streaks as proof that they can beat the house. They see their ruinous losing streaks as cruel blows of fate. They can’t wrap their heads around the fact that if you just smooth out those zigzags with a little averaging, their playing results amount to a straight line descent into bankruptcy. If the math tells them that this is inevitable, they mutter about computer models and theories having nothing to do with reality. And then when this inevitability plays out in the real world and they’re ruined, they go looking for somebody to lend them what they’ll need to win it all back.

Are we gambling addicts or are we adults who can get a grip and make decisions based on reality? It’s not the harsh winter here, or the mild winter there, that is the story. It’s the retreat of the glaciers and the trend for spring to spring earlier and fall to fall later. It’s the retreat of the arctic sea ice and the breakup of ice shelves off the Antarctic peninsula. It’s the ascent of treeline. These natural indicators are not anomalies caused by urban heat island contamination of temperature records. They are not the result of fudged computer code [not that the East Anglia people did fudge their code—-the comments were their own warnings to themselves to not forget that this bit of code was not to be used as reflecting real-world data]. They are not an artifact of miscalibrated satellite thermometer readings, or a failure to adjust for orbital decay. They are not predictions or printouts from computer models. They are the smoothed trend line of a gambler’s ruin.

And in defense of modeling, computer models have a patchy track record but they’ve racked up some awesome achievements. Before computer modeling, we had wetware computers and dead tree hard drives, and we got some pretty interesting results in those simpler days.

Before the battle of Midway, the Japanese held a war game. They modeled the battle. In the game, the Americans caught the Japanese rearming and sank several Japanese carriers. The game referees were ordered by the high command to adjust the result, and play continued after this intervention to the proper victorious outcome.

The Japanese high command was to learn, a few weeks later, that models had more validity than they had wanted to believe. Models ought not to be confused with the reality they attempt to model, but neither is it prudent to hold their outputs in contempt.

46 Jadespring  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:29:31am

Just an interesting side not which is relate to ecology and energy. Something is happening around where I live. Yesterday while out driving on my normal rural routes I saw 5 farms who have recently put up banks of solar cells. Must have just happened over the winter months because they weren’t there before. It paints a rather bizzare picture as we’re talking farms that have been around for over a hundred years. Stereotypical big red barns, stereotypical quaint farm houses and bank of 20 or more cells sitting by the barn or on the edge of the fields.
It’s pretty cool.

47 darthstar  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:30:42am

re: #38 negativ

Cool video. Flames and smoke always keep my attention.

48 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:31:16am

Karl Lagerfeld Imports a 265-Ton Glacier for Chanel’s Fashion Show


We’ve heard about designers doing some crazy things, but this one may just take the prize. For Chanel’s Fall/Winter 2010 show Karl Lagerfeld imported a massive 265-ton glacier from northern Sweden, where over the course of six days 35 sculptors (flown in from around the world) whittled the icy block down to a 28-foot tall frozen landscape. For this brief one-time show, the Grand Palais itself was also kept at subzero temperature for an extra Arctic effect. While we ‘re not quite sure how keen Karl is to the whole global warming situation, his musing to reporters on the issue certainly says a lot: “Have you felt any warming this winter? Maybe that’s all nonsense, who knows.”
49 Soap_Man  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:33:46am

re: #30 MandyManners

a television and cinema advert in which a father read his daughter a nightmarish bedtime story about a world blighted by climate change

Yeah, let’s scare the snot out of little kids.

Reminds me of:

8 Insane Ways Parents Are Politically Brainwashing Children

50 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:35:01am

re: #48 NJDhockeyfan

Karl Lagerfeld Imports a 265-Ton Glacier for Chanel’s Fashion Show

I don’t even want to think about how much that cost.

51 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:36:58am

[Link: environmentalism.suite101.com…]

[Link: www.scientificamerican.com…]

[Link: www.iitap.iastate.edu…]

the Ogallala Aquifer is drying up….so what’s next?…does anybody even care?
ahahaha!….crisis!

52 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:41:18am

no water…scary thought eh?

anyhow, back to the real world…I want one of these
Image: August22,2009-1923FordT-BucketKitCar%20%2813%29.JPG

53 Soap_Man  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:41:51am

re: #39 Jadespring

No I’m not. I just happen to know geography and have a pretty good understanding of where this article is talking about when it bring up water shortages It’s just ridiculous to suggest that ‘delsalinization’ is going to solve the problem of shortages in the plains because of poor snowpack. I suppose if you would be fine with spending trillions of dollars to build pipelines and plants through the rockies or down from the arctic ocean or thousands of miles overland from the Atlantic this your suggestion might have some merit. Oh and if you have no problem with your basic food costs going through the roof then sure lets go with your suggestion.

I have no specific numbers to back this up, but pipelines seems much cheaper, and here is my example:

Las Vegas is (or at least was) growing at an exponential rate. Lake Mean, the only source of fresh water, was rapidly depleting. One suggestion was to tap water from, wait for it, Lake Michigan. As in the other side of the country. So if that plan is cheaper than desalinization from the nearby Pacific Ocean, then desalinization must be crazy expensive.

(And by the way, keep your filthy Vegas hands off my water bitches!)

54 Soap_Man  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:42:24am

re: #53 Soap_Man

I have no specific numbers to back this up, but pipelines seems much cheaper, and here is my example:

Las Vegas is (or at least was) growing at an exponential rate. Lake Mean Mead, the only source of fresh water, was rapidly depleting. One suggestion was to tap water from, wait for it, Lake Michigan. As in the other side of the country. So if that plan is cheaper than desalinization from the nearby Pacific Ocean, then desalinization must be crazy expensive.

(And by the way, keep your filthy Vegas hands off my water bitches!)

55 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:43:19am

re: #53 Soap_Man

It’s crazy expensive and uses crazy amounts of energy. Scientists are working on improved measures, including a biological solution that’s pretty nifty.

[Link: www.newscientist.com…]

56 MandyManners  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:43:52am

re: #49 Soap_Man

Reminds me of:

8 Insane Ways Parents Are Politically Brainwashing Children

Troofer fashion!

57 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:45:22am

re: #55 Obdicut

It’s crazy expensive and uses crazy amounts of energy. Scientists are working on improved measures, including a biological solution that’s pretty nifty.

[Link: www.newscientist.com…]

where there is the will, there is a way….it simply has to be done despite what pessimists say…so much would a Hyperion cost per unit if 2000 of them were ordered up?

58 MandyManners  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:46:20am
59 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:46:53am

re: #53 Soap_Man

I have no specific numbers to back this up, but pipelines seems much cheaper, and here is my example:

Las Vegas is (or at least was) growing at an exponential rate. Lake Mean, the only source of fresh water, was rapidly depleting. One suggestion was to tap water from, wait for it, Lake Michigan. As in the other side of the country. So if that plan is cheaper than desalinization from the nearby Pacific Ocean, then desalinization must be crazy expensive.

(And by the way, keep your filthy Vegas hands off my water bitches!)

someday the feds will step in and take that water…bet me…they are all powerful and will do what they want

60 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:47:51am

re: #53 Soap_Man

(And by the way, keep your filthy Vegas hands off my water bitches!)

61 Soap_Man  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:48:05am

re: #55 Obdicut

It’s crazy expensive and uses crazy amounts of energy. Scientists are working on improved measures, including a biological solution that’s pretty nifty.

[Link: www.newscientist.com…]

I have faith that scientists will create a viable option before we start running out of fresh water.

But, on the other hand, I also had faith in scientists to cure baldness before I was old enough to start losing my hair. My faith wasn’t rewarded.

62 darthstar  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:49:30am

Okay…time for me to take a shower. Click here to watch.

63 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:50:49am

re: #61 Soap_Man

I have faith that scientists will create a viable option before we start running out of fresh water.

But, on the other hand, I also had faith in scientists to cure baldness before I was old enough to start losing my hair. My faith wasn’t rewarded.

“A bald man told me once if I rubbed my head between my wife’s legs I would grow hair on my head. Then he twirled his mustache.”
~ Redd Foxx

64 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:51:03am

not only will we be drinking sweet sea water, we’ll be burning salt for energy…
Image: August22,2009-1923FordT-BucketKitCar%20%2813%29.JPG

65 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:54:07am

re: #63 NJDhockeyfan

“A bald man told me once if I rubbed my head between my wife’s legs I would grow hair on my head. Then he twirled his mustache.”
~ Redd Foxx

I don’t know if anyone is familiar with the early “party albums” of Redd Foxx, but they were amazingly hard core blue material. Back in the 50’s, my dad had a number of them “hidden” in the hall closet. I found them, memorized a number of the routines… Look up the “soap product fugg (fugg it)” or “the horse race.”

66 Soap_Man  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:54:26am

BBL.

67 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:57:13am

I have to finish cleaning out my freezer so that I can go out and buy $700 worth of fish, meat and chicken to feed the hordes for Passover. I hope that will be enough. My kids always complained that I was stingy with food, and now they’re adults, and they eat a lot more.

Oh, and the cases of wine. Can’t forget the wine.

68 Political Atheist  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:58:46am

re: #57 albusteve

Is even one Hyperion installed and running?

69 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:59:06am

re: #67 Alouette

Damn, that sounds like quite a feast.

70 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 9:59:12am

re: #6 Varek Raith

Desalinization is veeerrryyy expensive. Good luck convincing people to pay up the wazoo for water.

We have a de-sal plant here in Santa Barbara, constructed in 1991 for $34 million and costs half a million dollars a year to upkeep. If it were fired up the cost per acre foot of water produced is estimated at $1100. It has never been used.

71 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:00:50am

re: #68 Rightwingconspirator

Is even one Hyperion installed and running?

not that I know of

72 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:01:58am

re: #67 Alouette

I have to finish cleaning out my freezer so that I can go out and buy $700 worth of fish, meat and chicken to feed the hordes for Passover. I hope that will be enough. My kids always complained that I was stingy with food, and now they’re adults, and they eat a lot more.

Oh, and the cases of wine. Can’t forget the wine.

Ha… since I’m unemployed right now, and this week, who do you think got the task of getting rid of chametz? In our house, the process is more ceremonial then succinct, but it’s still done.

73 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:02:57am

I have to admit I have a stomach virus and have been expanding my carbon footprint this weekend. I’m glad they don’t tax farts.

74 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:03:08am

re: #69 Killgore Trout

Damn, that sounds like quite a feast.

That’s not all of it.

75 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:03:09am

re: #71 albusteve

not that I know of

Eighty percent chance of snow here today. Cloudy out right now, snowing up at the tunnel, should snow here soon, probably rain down in Denver.

76 MandyManners  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:03:22am

re: #73 NJDhockeyfan

I have to admit I have a stomach virus and have been expanding my carbon footprint this weekend. I’m glad they don’t tax farts.

Not yet.

77 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:03:34am

re: #72 Walter L. Newton

Ha… since I’m unemployed right now, and this week, who do you think got the task of getting rid of chametz? In our house, the process is more ceremonial then succinct, but it’s still done.

You have to make sure that all the beer is gone.

78 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:03:46am

re: #61 Soap_Man

They need more support than faith, at this point. Support against the constant barrage of attacks from the weird-ass anti-science crowd.

79 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:05:10am

re: #76 MandyManners

Heh.

I’m likin’ the new look.

80 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:05:47am

UN climate change claims on rainforests were wrong, study suggests

A new study, funded by Nasa, has found that the most serious drought in the Amazon for more than a century had little impact on the rainforest’s vegetation.

The findings appear to disprove claims by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) that up to 40% of the Amazon rainforest could react drastically to even a small reduction in rainfall and could see the trees replaced by tropical grassland.

The IPCC has already faced intense criticism for using a report by environmental lobby group WWF as the basis for its claim, which in turn had failed to cite the original source of the research.

81 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:06:14am

re: #75 Walter L. Newton

Eighty percent chance of snow here today. Cloudy out right now, snowing up at the tunnel, should snow here soon, probably rain down in Denver.

we might get some rain down here…I love it when it rains, especially that once every couple of years wopper that hits…these systems are small and tight so that two miles away there is flooding but you’re in the clear sunshine…crazy weather, but everybody loves the rain

82 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:06:21am

re: #76 MandyManners

How about an avatar of Calvin peeing on KSM?

83 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:06:21am

re: #73 NJDhockeyfan

I thought that was you.

84 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:06:23am

re: #77 Alouette

You have to make sure that all the beer is gone.

I don’t drink anymore. Although that could be a good excuse to start for some people… not me.

85 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:06:48am

re: #83 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I thought that was you.

Excuse me.

86 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:06:56am

re: #81 albusteve

we might get some rain down here…I love it when it rains, especially that once every couple of years wopper that hits…these systems are small and tight so that two miles away there is flooding but you’re in the clear sunshine…crazy weather, but everybody loves the rain

It’s a wash!

87 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:08:11am

re: #72 Walter L. Newton

A Jew, an Atheist, and a Siberian Husky move to the mountains…

There’s gotta be a punchline in there somewhere.

88 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:09:22am

re: #81 albusteve

we might get some rain down here…I love it when it rains, especially that once every couple of years wopper that hits…these systems are small and tight so that two miles away there is flooding but you’re in the clear sunshine…crazy weather, but everybody loves the rain

Ok… 80 percent chance of snow, went to 100, since it’s now started. Forecast doesn’t even mention any accumulation, we’ll see. Best way to figure out how much snow we’ll get is to wait, and measure it when it’s done.

89 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:12:29am

re: #87 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

A Jew, an Atheist, and a Siberian Husky move to the mountains…

There’s gotta be a punchline in there somewhere.

Here’s the line up…

The interest in Passover here is unusual. A family full of atheist’s, who are Zionist, the two step-critters have a Jewish last name, I’m an ex-catholic and the mother is an ex-?. The Haggadah we use is custom written by their passed father. There is a lot in this Haggadah talking about freedom, a very Libertarian Haggadah so to speak.

No matter what your religion, or lack of it, it does speak to everyone.

90 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:14:22am

If you are in Latvia on Tuesday they are having a parade….a Nazi parade.

David Cameron’s rightwing ‘allies’ march in Riga to commemorate the SS

The number three bus in Riga winds from the mouth of the river Daugava, past the lovely old centre of the city to the miles of Lego-brick, Soviet-era blocks in Plavnieki.

At the foot of one of them, Natalija is sitting at one table and Maksimam at another in the Tris Pelmeni cafe, eating herring with onions and drinking beer while ice melts down the windows and the radio relays a highly charged ice-hockey game between Dinamo Riga and Ska St Petersburg. Old ladies pick through the snow with shopping, men rummage through rubbish bins and boys with shaven heads fly the Russian flag from cars screeching through the slush.

This weekend, there is also a widespread sense of anger. In this ethnic Russian suburb of the Latvian capital, there is disbelief at the prospect of a commemoration to be held this Tuesday by veterans and supporters of the Latvian Legion of the wartime SS.

Natalija’s uncle “was killed by the fascists”, she says, yet “still the Latvians allow a parade of the SS of Adolf Hitler!”.Maksimam, younger, hunches the collar of his leather jacket, sips his drink and says he cares little what the old people get up to – but spits at the idea of an SS ceremony.

91 Ericus58  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:18:39am

E-Trade babies!

92 MandyManners  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:18:55am

When it comes to cleaning up pollution that fouls the Chesapeake Bay, there’s one straightforward target that’s been largely overlooked: sewage from boats.

Boaters are allowed to discharge their toilet waste into the water if it’s been treated to remove bacteria.

But even treated toilet waste is chock full of nutrients such as nitrogen that foul the bay, cause algae blooms, and suck oxygen from the water.

SNIP

93 b_sharp  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:21:10am

re: #3 albusteve

orange groves in Saskatoon…groovy

Saskatoon groves in Nunavut. Cool.

94 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:27:53am

Note on AGW which many fail to acknowledge.

Historically when scientists are wrong on AGW, it is that their predictions were too conservative.

The ice in Greenland and Antarctica is going faster than anyone predicted - this is because of non-linearities in the ice sheets interaction with the sea and water that gets under the ice. No one really knows how to properly model it, so the predictions were very cautious…

Mother nature surprised us by being much more cranky.

Methane releases are accelerating at a faster rate than anyone expected 10 years ago.

Migration patterns have changed faster than anyone expected.

This is the thing that fools on the right who scream alarmism always miss. They were so smug in the idea that this is not so bad really and that the worst effects are over 100 years off, that they ignored the last ten years worth of findings where the community has been consistently shocked to see the trends accelerating much more quickly than expected.

But then again, to notice this, would require them to actually read the science.

The reality is worse than predicted consistently.

Let’s get that clear.

Consistently, the history of the field is that the predictions have been too conservative and the reality is consistently worse than predicted.

Please do get that clear when mid ranger predictions imply the deaths of billions. We must act now to prevent the consequences of AGW. The price of failure is not acceptable. The price of failure will be doom and historically, the trends indicate that it will happen sooner than anyone thought.

95 zora  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:28:04am

ot: [Link: swampland.blogs.time.com…]

Why Does Glenn Beck Hate Jesus?

When Glenn Beck told listeners of his radio show on March 2 that they should “run as fast as you can” from any church that preached “social or economic justice” because those were code words for Communism and Nazism, he probably thought he was tweaking a few crunchy religious liberals who didn’t listen to the show anyway. Instead he managed to outrage Christians in most mainline Protestant denominations, African-American congregations, Hispanic churches, and Catholics—who first heard the term “social justice” in papal encyclicals and have a little something in their tradition called “Catholic social teaching.” (Not to mention the teaching of a certain fellow from Nazareth who was always blathering on about justice…)…

96 b_sharp  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:29:01am

re: #5 albusteve

there are oceans of water out there…if there are water shortages it’s because people refuse to resolve the problem

How cheap do you believe irrigation is, considering Sask fresh water is held in ~100,000 small lakes some 800km north of the main farming area, which is already prone to droughts.

97 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:29:47am

Activate AGW response mode

Deny

Froth

Attack scientists

Attack science

Deny

Froth at responses to denial and attacks on science/scientists

Repeat until things settle down

98 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:29:57am

re: #94 ludwigvanquixote

Note on AGW which many fail to acknowledge.

Historically when scientists are wrong on AGW, it is that their predictions were too conservative.

What about the Amazon rainforest link above?

99 darthstar  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:30:24am

This will just drive more people to join the tea-party movment.

It was every businessperson’s nightmare.

Arriving at Harv’s Metro Car Wash in midtown Wednesday afternoon were two dark-suited IRS agents demanding payment of delinquent taxes. “They were deadly serious, very aggressive, very condescending,” says Harv’s owner, Aaron Zeff.

The really odd part of this: The letter that was hand-delivered to Zeff’s on-site manager showed the amount of money owed to the feds was … 4 cents.

100 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:31:45am

Rain….
[Link: www.beatlestube.net…]re: #96 b_sharp

How cheap do you believe irrigation is, considering Sask fresh water is held in ~100,000 small lakes some 800km north of the main farming area, which is already prone to droughts.

I don’t know anything about that region, but I like the name

101 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:32:52am

re: #98 NJDhockeyfan

What about the Amazon rainforest link above?

Didn’t see it the link. Last I checked the Amazon was getting destroyed at a large rate. and what about it?

How does that possibly affect the examples I brought?

Science is not a game of you ignoring al evidence and then pretending the things you don’t like don’t exist.

102 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:33:07am

re: #99 darthstar

This will just drive more people to join the tea-party movment.

I’ve said a hundred time here…beware of those guys, they are the worst of the whole bunch…I hate the feds

103 b_sharp  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:33:33am

re: #26 Walter L. Newton

Is there a difference?

Yes.

If you alone fart in a small room, that is weather. If a great many people fart in a crowded theatre, that is climate, depending on what is being watched of course.

104 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:34:44am

re: #98 NJDhockeyfan

What about the Amazon rainforest link above?

That’s all politics. And did you see the source for the information, the Telegraph?

105 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:35:11am

re: #103 b_sharp

Yes.

If you alone fart in a small room, that is weather. If a great many people fart in a crowded theatre, that is climate, depending on what is being watched of course.

Right, because farts are funny… It allows one to dismiss methane release by calling them farts. Heh heh he said fart Beavis…

106 darthstar  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:35:21am

re: #102 albusteve

I’ve said a hundred time here…beware of those guys, they are the worst of the whole bunch…I hate the feds

My guess is that the IRS agents saw the 4 cent figure and thought it would be kind of fun to go down and hand-deliver the notice.

107 MandyManners  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:35:55am

Dozens of starving sea lion pups have washed ashore in Orange County, the latest calamity to befall marine life and a pattern scientists believe could be tied to El Niño climate conditions.

Since January, the Pacific Marine Mammal Center in Laguna Beach has rescued 27 emaciated sea lion pups that have been stranded on area beaches — a three- to fourfold increase from the norm, said Dr. Richard Evans, the center’s medical director.

The pups, most under 6 months old, have gone without food for so long they’ve started digesting their blubber and muscle to keep themselves warm in the chilly Pacific waters, biologists say. Their eyes bulge and their skin hangs loosely over protruding spines, hipbones and ribs.

SNIP

108 jaunte  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:35:56am

re: #94 ludwigvanquixote


Please do get that clear when mid ranger predictions imply the deaths of billions. We must act now to prevent the consequences of AGW. The price of failure is not acceptable. The price of failure will be doom and historically, the trends indicate that it will happen sooner than anyone thought.


Ludwig, what do you think is the most effective action for an individual to take at this point?

109 darthstar  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:37:26am

re: #107 MandyManners

Dozens of starving sea lion pups have washed ashore in Orange County, the latest calamity to befall marine life and a pattern scientists believe could be tied to El Niño climate conditions.

SNIP

We had a major sea-lion die off here in Half Moon Bay a few months ago. I’d find four, five, sometimes as many as a dozen dead sea lions on the shore every week for a few months. Not just pups, but adults as well.

110 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:37:58am

re: #104 Walter L. Newton

That’s all politics. And did you see the source for the information, the Telegraph?

A NASA study is the source of the information and an IPCC scientist is quoted in the article.

111 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:39:10am

re: #110 NJDhockeyfan

A NASA study is the source of the information and an IPCC scientist is quoted in the article.

So?

112 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:40:15am

re: #111 Walter L. Newton

So?

You asked, I answered.

113 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:40:28am

re: #99 darthstar

This will just drive more people to join the tea-party movment.

Why? He could just toss them a nickel and say “keep the change”

114 Bulldoglover100  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:41:06am

re: #112 NJDhockeyfan

Some people have a real problem with emperical fact.

115 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:42:02am

few people care about the science of AGW…they are interested in affirmation, a consensus…and now, as the result of climategate people have lost confidence

therefore to move forward toward solutions, these people must be circumvented…AGW can be sold as a national security issue in terms of efficiency, technology and weening away from the oil ticks…it’s the only way imo

116 Bulldoglover100  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:42:32am

re: #112 NJDhockeyfan

I agree and think this quote applies:
A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.— Saul Bellow

117 Ericus58  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:43:13am

re: #113 Alouette

Why? He could just toss them a nickel and say “keep the change”

118 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:43:13am

re: #106 darthstar

My guess is that the IRS agents saw the 4 cent figure and thought it would be kind of fun to go down and hand-deliver the notice.

yes, with cheaters at a record high, seems like an appropriate way to spend their funds eh?

119 Jadespring  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:43:54am

re: #114 Bulldoglover100

Some people have a real problem with emperical fact.

No some people have real problem with sources such as the Telegraph who just generally have a history of ‘sucking it’ when reporting about studies that have anything to do with climate change.

120 Bulldoglover100  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:44:29am

re: #119 Jadespring

Again:A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.— Saul Bellow

121 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:44:42am

re: #112 NJDhockeyfan

You asked, I answered.

I know, I was just trying to keep the conversation going. I saw that report a while back, it’s been out for a bit. I haven’t found any sources denying what’s in the report.

122 MandyManners  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:45:05am

re: #109 darthstar

We had a major sea-lion die off here in Half Moon Bay a few months ago. I’d find four, five, sometimes as many as a dozen dead sea lions on the shore every week for a few months. Not just pups, but adults as well.

El Nino?

123 Jadespring  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:45:18am

re: #120 Bulldoglover100

Again:A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep.— Saul Bellow

What does that have to do with anything?

124 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:45:37am

re: #119 Jadespring

No some people have real problem with sources such as the Telegraph who just generally have a history of ‘sucking it’ when reporting about studies that have anything to do with climate change.

got to keep an open mind…it’s the message

125 Bulldoglover100  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:46:01am

re: #123 Jadespring

For the far right wing nuts who deny that anything is going on with our climate it applies.

126 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:46:40am

re: #125 Bulldoglover100

For the far right wing nuts who deny that anything is going on with our climate it applies.

seemed obvious to me…good quote

127 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:47:12am

re: #108 jaunte

Ludwig, what do you think is the most effective action for an individual to take at this point?

1. get really clear on the science and the need to stop burning fossil fuels as quickly as possible.

2. get really clear that alternative energy sources exist and can be deployed. Be able to make the case for solar, wind and nuclear. Understand about smart grids and advanced battery systems.

3. Be willing to walk the talk and pay for such systems in the form of taxes or home improvements - with the understanding that it is an investment and that the systems once deployed will make energy prices ultimately go down and boost America’s economy. Also understand this means being able to tell the Saudis and Iran and Venezuela to go to hell.

4. Tell people about what you have learned. Just tell them. Tell them the facts and get as many clear on the first three points as you can.

5. Conserve energy at home. Do the basic and obvious things. Turn off lights that are not i use. Fix that leaky faucet. Walk places or ride bikes for a change rather than taking the car for super short trips.

Put solar panels on your roof if you can afford it.

Buy a hybrid car if you can afford one.

IF the market for hybrids goes up, then more get made.

6. Write your congress critter. Make the case eloquently and state facts.
Demand that the government make the needed changes to move us off of fossil fuels.

7. Write your local TV news. Demand that they cover the science of AGW more.

8. Buy less sweatshop crap from China. They are poised to overtake us as the worlds largest polluter. We are funding it. You are personally funding it every time you buy some cheap crap you do not need.

9. Walk the talk. IF you think about it, there are thousands of things you really can do. Every little bit helps.

128 solomonpanting  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:47:21am

re: #113 Alouette

Why? He could just toss them a nickel and say “keep the change”

You’d think that would be the case, huh?

Inexplicably, penalties and taxes accruing on the debt – stemming from the 2006 tax year – were listed as $202.31, leaving Harv’s with an obligation of $202.35.

129 MandyManners  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:47:39am

Months have passed since anyone has waved hello to one another in Waterman or Shabbona in rural DeKalb County. Some people claim they’ve even stopped going to church to avoid having to talk to former friends.

“It’s gone. The country way of living is gone,” declares Susan Flex, who lives in Waterman with her husband and their nine children.

The animosity stems from the greenest of energy sources: a wind farm.

The turbines started arriving last summer, at a rate of two a day, their parts trucked in on flatbeds. Today 126 turbines dot the county, with another 19 just over the border in Lee County. They have been making enough electricity since December to power 55,000 homes, roughly twice the needs of Oak Park.

DeKalb County’s efforts appear to be in line with President Barack Obama’s push for the U.S. to produce 25 percent of its energy needs with renewable resources by 2025. Illinois has added more wind power last year than all but four states.

Yet the story playing out just an hour and half from Chicago is one of policy-meets-reality. While the idea of creating power from the wind sounds ideal, the massive structures that have gone up have dramatically affected the people who live there, country life and the landscape.

Each turbine stands about 400 feet tall from the tips of their blades to the ground — roughly the height of the Wrigley Building in Chicago. Infighting over the turbines has pitted families against landowners, farmers against friends, and even family members against one another.

SNIP

130 Jadespring  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:47:43am

re: #124 albusteve

got to keep an open mind…it’s the message

I do. That’s why if something comes from that particular source and I care enough to find out if it actually does have merit I go somewhere else or go to the actual studies they report on.

131 Jadespring  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:48:41am

re: #125 Bulldoglover100

For the far right wing nuts who deny that anything is going on with our climate it applies.

Thanks. I just wasn’t sure exactly what you were referring too. :)

132 jaunte  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:49:10am

re: #127 ludwigvanquixote

1. get really clear on the science and the need to stop burning fossil fuels as quickly as possible.

2. get really clear that alternative energy sources exist and can be deployed. Be able to make the case for solar, wind and nuclear. Understand about smart grids and advanced battery systems.

3. Be willing to walk the talk and pay for such systems in the form of taxes or home improvements - with the understanding that it is an investment and that the systems once deployed will make energy prices ultimately go down and boost America’s economy. Also understand this means being able to tell the Saudis and Iran and Venezuela to go to hell.

4. Tell people about what you have learned. Just tell them. Tell them the facts and get as many clear on the first three points as you can.

5. Conserve energy at home. Do the basic and obvious things. Turn off lights that are not i use. Fix that leaky faucet. Walk places or ride bikes for a change rather than taking the car for super short trips.

Put solar panels on your roof if you can afford it.

Buy a hybrid car if you can afford one.

IF the market for hybrids goes up, then more get made.

6. Write your congress critter. Make the case eloquently and state facts.
Demand that the government make the needed changes to move us off of fossil fuels.

7. Write your local TV news. Demand that they cover the science of AGW more.

8. Buy less sweatshop crap from China. They are poised to overtake us as the worlds largest polluter. We are funding it. You are personally funding it every time you buy some cheap crap you do not need.

9. Walk the talk. IF you think about it, there are thousands of things you really can do. Every little bit helps.

Quoted for emphasis; thanks, that’s an excellent list. I appreciate your answer.

133 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:49:12am

re: #80 NJDhockeyfan

Typical denier shit. And political denier shit to boot.

You never fail to scrape the barrel do you Hockypuck?

134 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:49:14am

re: #127 ludwigvanquixote

Good points. Sorry I’m lurking, job hunting online.

135 b_sharp  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:50:20am

re: #105 ludwigvanquixote

Right, because farts are funny… It allows one to dismiss methane release by calling them farts. Heh heh he said fart Beavis…

Methane never entered my mind, nor would I ever dismiss the effects of methane on AGW.

Read my posts, and visit my blog before jumping to conclusions about me.

136 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:50:35am

re: #130 Jadespring

I do. That’s why if something comes from that particular source and I care enough to find out if it actually does have merit I go somewhere else or go to the actual studies they report on.

seems to contradict your earlier post, but that’s cool…I surf Drudge every day for news links

137 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:50:43am

re: #133 ludwigvanquixote

Typical denier shit. And political denier shit to boot.

You never fail to scrape the barrel do you Hockypuck?

Did you read it?

138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:51:06am

re: #127 ludwigvanquixote

Regarding number 8. We are still a larger polluter than China?

Overall or industrial?

139 Jadespring  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:51:25am

re: #136 albusteve

seems to contradict your earlier post, but that’s cool…I surf Drudge every day for news links

How does it contradict my earlier post? I’m curious now.

140 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:51:39am

re: #132 jaunte

Quoted for emphasis; thanks, that’s an excellent list. I appreciate your answer.

You are very welcome.

141 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:52:13am

re: #130 Jadespring

I do. That’s why if something comes from that particular source and I care enough to find out if it actually does have merit I go somewhere else or go to the actual studies they report on.

Here is the abstract from the GRL…

[Link: www.agu.org…]

142 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:52:20am

re: #139 Jadespring

How does it contradict my earlier post? I’m curious now.

I’ve lost interest…there was no contradiction then

143 Jadespring  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:53:14am

re: #141 Walter L. Newton

Here is the abstract from the GRL…

[Link: www.agu.org…]

Thanks Walter.

144 Ericus58  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:53:17am

Watch out fer them hockeypucks!

145 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:53:25am

re: #130 Jadespring

I do. That’s why if something comes from that particular source and I care enough to find out if it actually does have merit I go somewhere else or go to the actual studies they report on.

Abstract

“The sensitivity of Amazon rainforests to dry-season droughts is still poorly understood, with reports of enhanced tree mortality and forest fires on one hand, and excessive forest greening on the other. Here, we report that the previous results of large-scale greening of the Amazon, obtained from an earlier version of satellite-derived vegetation greenness data - Collection 4 (C4) Enhanced Vegetation Index (EVI), are irreproducible, with both this earlier version as well as the improved, current version (C5), owing to inclusion of atmosphere-corrupted data in those results. We find no evidence of large-scale greening of intact Amazon forests during the 2005 drought - approximately 11%–12% of these drought-stricken forests display greening, while, 28%–29% show browning or no-change, and for the rest, the data are not of sufficient quality to characterize any changes. These changes are also not unique - approximately similar changes are observed in non-drought years as well. Changes in surface solar irradiance are contrary to the speculation in the previously published report of enhanced sunlight availability during the 2005 drought. There was no co-relation between drought severity and greenness changes, which is contrary to the idea of drought-induced greening. Thus, we conclude that Amazon forests did not green-up during the 2005 drought.”

[Link: www.agu.org…]

146 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:53:55am

re: #135 b_sharp

Methane never entered my mind, nor would I ever dismiss the effects of methane on AGW.

Read my posts, and visit my blog before jumping to conclusions about me.

NO I was jumping to no conclusions about you.

I was commenting about the use of the word fart. One of the ways we let deniers win is by letting them call methane releases farts. It allows for the 13 year old boy in them to giggle derisively and stop thinking. It is a way to dismiss realities.

I was not accusing you of doing so intentionally. I was commenting that the use of the word fart in the context of methane is like the use of the word settlement in regards to Israel.

147 albusteve  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:55:43am

I bought a curly light bulb…very disappointing, so I won’t do that again…but with regard to the freaked out Nimbyists, I’ll gladly let the power company put a Hyperion in my back forty

148 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:56:48am

re: #138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Regarding number 8. We are still a larger polluter than China?

Overall or industrial?

It is my understanding that in terms of overall emissions the US is still larger than China. However, China is poised to overtake us.

The distinction between industrial and non industrial emissions is moot. CO2 does not carry a tag for where it came from or behave differently because of it.

However, to simply say that gives no clear or adequate picture of just how vast U.S. or Chinese emissions really are in absolute terms.

149 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:56:50am

Attention: Thrifty snackers
How To Make Potato Chips In The Microwave
Yes, it does actually work and the cleanup is pretty minimal. The batches are small but it really quick. You could easily make a single serving in the amount of time it takes to assemble a sandwich for lunch. Chips ain’t cheap but I’d guess for the price of a single medium potato (maybe 50 cents) you could make a bag’s worth of chips. That would cost you about $4 to buy.
If you are looking for other uses for your microwave try Fresh Ricotta in 5 minutes or less!

150 b_sharp  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:56:50am

re: #146 ludwigvanquixote

NO I was jumping to no conclusions about you.

I was commenting about the use of the word fart. One of the ways we let deniers win is by letting them call methane releases farts. It allows for the 13 year old boy in them to giggle derisively and stop thinking. It is a way to dismiss realities.

I was not accusing you of doing so intentionally. I was commenting that the use of the word fart in the context of methane is like the use of the word settlement in regards to Israel.

Understood.

151 Jadespring  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:00:12am

Well it’s time to put on my farmer ball cap and go out to play with the chickens.

BBL

152 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:01:15am

re: #133 ludwigvanquixote

Typical denier shit. And political denier shit to boot.

You never fail to scrape the barrel do you Hockypuck?

Yeah, that typical bottom barrel denier called NASA really upsets you, don’t it?

153 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:03:06am

re: #152 NJDhockeyfan

Yeah, that typical bottom barrel denier called NASA really upsets you, don’t it?

Did you see the paper abstract I linked to above… list all the scientist and other information… a whole hive of deniers…

[Link: www.agu.org…]

154 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:05:09am

re: #152 NJDhockeyfan

Yeah, that typical bottom barrel denier called NASA really upsets you, don’t it?

NO the false misreporting of it by a source like the telegraph, upsets me. The fact that you ignore any evidence that you do not like upsets me. The fact that even if it were true - as reported by the telegraph it would not change the examples I gave and you ignored that upsets me.

The fact that even Walter told you this was political Bullshit and you persist in your lies upsets me.

THe fact that you are utterly dishonest and closed minded upsets me.

155 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:07:20am

And that is another thing, linking to an MSM article about a paper - articularly one that cherry picks quotes is not the same thing as linking to the papers themselves or talking about the science in them,

156 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:09:43am

re: #154 ludwigvanquixote

NO the false misreporting of it by a source like the telegraph, upsets me. The fact that you ignore any evidence that you do not like upsets me. The fact that even if it were true - as reported by the telegraph it would not change the examples I gave and you ignored that upsets me.

The fact that even Walter told you this was political Bullshit and you persist in your lies upsets me.

THe fact that you are utterly dishonest and closed minded upsets me.

You really need to get a hold of yourself. I post a story that you disagree with and you get all bent out of shape. I didn’t lie about anything, I just posted a story about a NASA funded report that found errors in an IPCC report. You may call NASA liars, but not me.

(Let the personal insults & name calling begin)

157 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:10:13am

re: #155 ludwigvanquixote

And that is another thing, linking to an MSM article about a paper - articularly one that cherry picks quotes is not the same thing as linking to the papers themselves or talking about the science in them,

How about this then?

The sensitivity of Amazon rainforests to dry-season droughts is still poorly understood, with reports of enhanced tree mortality and forest fires on one hand, and excessive forest greening on the other. Here, we report that the previous results of large-scale greening of the Amazon, obtained from an earlier version of satellite-derived vegetation greenness data - Collection 4 (C4) Enhanced Vegetation Index (EVI), are irreproducible, with both this earlier version as well as the improved, current version (C5), owing to inclusion of atmosphere-corrupted data in those results. We find no evidence of large-scale greening of intact Amazon forests during the 2005 drought - approximately 11%–12% of these drought-stricken forests display greening, while, 28%–29% show browning or no-change, and for the rest, the data are not of sufficient quality to characterize any changes. These changes are also not unique - approximately similar changes are observed in non-drought years as well. Changes in surface solar irradiance are contrary to the speculation in the previously published report of enhanced sunlight availability during the 2005 drought. There was no co-relation between drought severity and greenness changes, which is contrary to the idea of drought-induced greening. Thus, we conclude that Amazon forests did not green-up during the 2005 drought.

[Link: www.agu.org…]

158 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:11:58am

re: #156 NJDhockeyfan

Oh bullshit Hockey Puck.

Utter bullshit.

You presented a slanted report on the science, not the science itself and made a stink. You are pulling a Monkton.

159 NJDhockeyfan  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:12:03am

re: #155 ludwigvanquixote

And that is another thing, linking to an MSM article about a paper - articularly one that cherry picks quotes is not the same thing as linking to the papers themselves or talking about the science in them,

I believe this is the paper.

It doesn’t resolves the issue, it just shows that the science isn’t settled.

160 sergeant major  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:12:55am

This is of no consolation but North Carolina had its coldest winter in 40 years….man it was cold here.

161 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:14:07am

re: #157 Walter L. Newton

Walter, what do they mean by “greening,” and what is the relative drought in the Amazon?

But more importantly, how does this affect at all the main examples I gave before?

Answer, it does not and as is typical, you are fixating on one thing taken out of context rather than looking at the picture as a whole or thinking it through.

I am not going to get sucked into yet another quibble fest with you.

Really, take your games elsewhere.

162 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:15:06am

re: #161 ludwigvanquixote

Walter, what do they mean by “greening,” and what is the relative drought in the Amazon?

But more importantly, how does this affect at all the main examples I gave before?

Answer, it does not and as is typical, you are fixating on one thing taken out of context rather than looking at the picture as a whole or thinking it through.

I am not going to get sucked into yet another quibble fest with you.

Really, take your games elsewhere.

It only proves this…

“”The way that the WWF report calculated this 40% was totally wrong, while [the new] calculations are by far more reliable and correct,” said Dr. Jose Marengo, a Brazilian National Institute for Space Research climate scientist and member of the IPCC.”

That’s all.

163 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:15:39am

re: #162 Walter L. Newton

It only proves this…

“”The way that the WWF report calculated this 40% was totally wrong, while [the new] calculations are by far more reliable and correct,” said Dr. Jose Marengo, a Brazilian National Institute for Space Research climate scientist and member of the IPCC.”

That’s all.

You are interested in correct science… yes?

165 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:19:33am

re: #159 NJDhockeyfan

Yes…

Amazon rainforests did not green up during the 2005 drought….

That sure sounds like a there is some question about AGW don’t it?

I mean I would expect the forests to get really green during a drought wouldn’t you?

And the paper if you read it, rather than cherrypicking from the abstracts, will tell you that we really can not adequately model the Amazon system yet over short term periods.

It really says nothing about long term trends though.

Yes that means that this part of the science is not settled. We can not predict weather yet either.

And it has nothing to do with the main point that these things historically tend to behave worse and not better for humanity than predictions.

Your point though is to point to this one system and try to cast the whole of the science as unsettled or unknown - and then to imply that AGW might not be so bad.

This is a myopic view of available evidence, dishonest to the core and stupid.

166 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:22:02am

I have no doubt that climate change is real. I also have no doubt about the fact that if China and India are not on board with curbing their own environmental abuses, the situation will not improve very much. And who, pray tell will make these two gigantic countries (combined population 2.2 billion … seven times the size of the US) comply?

167 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:23:53am

re: #165 ludwigvanquixote

Yes…

Amazon rainforests did not green up during the 2005 drought

That sure sounds like a there is some question about AGW don’t it?

I mean I would expect the forests to get really green during a drought wouldn’t you?

And the paper if you read it, rather than cherrypicking from the abstracts, will tell you that we really can not adequately model the Amazon system yet over short term periods.

It really says nothing about long term trends though.

Yes that means that this part of the science is not settled. We can not predict weather yet either.

And it has nothing to do with the main point that these things historically tend to behave worse and not better for humanity than predictions.

Your point though is to point to this one system and try to cast the whole of the science as unsettled or unknown - and then to imply that AGW might not be so bad.

This is a myopic view of available evidence, dishonest to the core and stupid.

1) I don’t see anyone, any comment above that denied AGW science.

2) I see data that was handed to the IPCC by the WWF, that was included in the IPCC AR4, what appears to be questioned by this current report published by the GRL.

“He said: “There was more than a slight reduction in precipitation during the drought of 2005. It is that particular claim of the IPCC that our analysis rejects.””

3) This is not a plus-minus for AGW, this is a plus for good science. Science correcting science.

That’s all.

168 Sergeant Major  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:25:32am

The UK had their coldest winter in 30 years and the eastern United States has had the coldest weather it’s had in 25 years….I’m not deputing climate change. I think it’s fair if we show Canada as having record warming it’s only fair that we show other countries that have record cold temperatures.

169 Ojoe  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:26:11am

How can you have a quantitative handle on something as complicated as the climate of the whole earth?

Every time you put another item into your model, you also add another uncertainty, unless your measurements are perfect.

170 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:26:34am

re: #162 Walter L. Newton

NO that is the claim of one paper. You will need to see many more corroborating this paper before you can claim that. It does not mean that the initial calculation was wrong at all - and unless you are specifically in the field, in this case studying the ecosystem of the Amazon, you have no right to make a call.

And yes Walter, I care about the science.

IF you honestly cared about the science yourself, you would take the time to understand that one paper, on one side of a dispute in a field you know nothing of does not a settled claim make.

IF you cared about science at all, you would not constantly try to distract from things which are overwhelmingly established by posing questions based on things that are not settled.

If you cared about the science you would realize that you are not in any position to comment on the details before they are settled at all, as you have NO expertise in the field.

I am not commenting on this paper directly because I do not study short term trends in the Amazon and I have not yet read the paper in detail. You could learn from that example and learn to shut the fuck up about things you know nothing about and have no right to comment on.

When the debate is more settled, and I have had the time to look into this - should I choose to, I read about three journal papers a day as it is, and I do have to work, I will comment.

But you on the otherhand, self appointed expert on everything - who is also consistently wrong over and over about the science are the expert…

Uh huh.

171 b_sharp  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:26:50am

re: #168 Sergeant Major

The UK had their coldest winter in 30 years and the eastern United States has had the coldest weather it’s had in 25 years…I’m not deputing climate change. I think it’s fair if we show Canada as having record warming it’s only fair that we show other countries that have record cold temperatures.

That different areas have differing conditions, some warmer and some cooler is why averages are used to determine the trend.

172 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:29:09am

re: #161 ludwigvanquixote

There had been earlier claims that the 2005 drought caused a “greening” of the Amazon. Tied to this thought was that available sunlight increased in this area. In the March Geophysical Letters an article was published by several authors entitled: “Amazon Forests Did Not Green-up in the 2005 Drought”. The authors included Arindam Samanta and Ranga B. Myneni.

In this the authors concluded that only about 10% of the affected area increased in greenness and about three times this ares became browner. The majority of the affected areas could not be determined. At the same time sunlight (in the wavelengths most useful for plant life) decreased rather than decreased in most areas.

The forests got browner the earlier claim of “greening” isn’t supported by this partial study. But the IPCC might have been wrong about sensitivity to a one year drought, apparently that’s the important thing to take away from all this.

173 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:29:43am

re: #167 Walter L. Newton

Walter, The Hocky puck was trying to use it to deny the science by making claims about things not being settled in the field as a whole. Don’t be stupid.

As to science correcting science - that may be the case. It also may be that the original Brazilian team was correct, and since you are not an ecologist who specializes in the rain forest or keeps up with that literature, you have no right to say either way.

OK.

Your concern trolling is nonsense. The shtick has led you down one wrong path after another only to be disproved again and again. Why not learn from your mistakes and shut up until you have a more clear picture before making pronouncements?

174 Ericus58  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:29:52am

Time for an interview with an icon - enjoy.

[Link: www.komonews.com…]

Fascinating…

175 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:33:43am

re: #166 _RememberTonyC

I have no doubt that climate change is real. I also have no doubt about the fact that if China and India are not on board with curbing their own environmental abuses, the situation will not improve very much. And who, pray tell will make these two gigantic countries (combined population 2.2 billion … seven times the size of the US) comply?

that’s what I thought ….. none of our experts have the answer ….

176 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:34:14am

re: #172 goddamnedfrank

The forests got browner the earlier claim of “greening” isn’t supported by this partial study. But the IPCC might have been wrong about sensitivity to a one year drought, apparently that’s the important thing to take away from all this.

Yeah!

One of the first things I pointed out was that this was a short term study.

And the paper if you read it, rather than cherrypicking from the abstracts, will tell you that we really can not adequately model the Amazon system yet over short term periods.

It really says nothing about long term trends though.

Yes that means that this part of the science is not settled. We can not predict weather yet either.

But God forbid these morons read that or understand the argument or take into account that it completely destroys the case they are trying to make.

177 Ojoe  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:38:43am

Snore.

178 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:39:26am

re: #177 Ojoe

Snore.

Yeah.

179 Varek Raith  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:39:31am

Why?

180 iceweasel  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:40:24am

re: #176 ludwigvanquixote

Hey Ludwig-baby! Just popping in. BTW, check out b_sharp’s blog. You’ll like it. Meant to tell you earlier.

181 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:40:34am

re: #179 Varek Raith

Why?

Are you being philosophical?

182 Varek Raith  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:40:46am

re: #177 Ojoe

Snore.

re: #179 Varek Raith

Why?

Format fail on my part.

183 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:41:02am

re: #180 iceweasel

Hey Ludwig-baby! Just popping in. BTW, check out b_sharp’s blog. You’ll like it. Meant to tell you earlier.

I like b-sharp a lot actually.

184 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:42:03am

re: #180 iceweasel

Hey Ludwig-baby! Just popping in. BTW, check out b_sharp’s blog. You’ll like it. Meant to tell you earlier.

DO me a kindness and find me an appropriately concerned trol Icon for Walter. HE is vrey concerned about proper science again and pronouncing his expert opinions about the state of the field.

185 iceweasel  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:42:31am

re: #183 ludwigvanquixote

I like b-sharp a lot actually.

Oh I know— just sayin’. Definitely a focus on issues near and dear to our hearts there.

186 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:43:37am

re: #184 ludwigvanquixote

DO me a kindness and find me an appropriately concerned trol Icon for Walter. HE is vrey concerned about proper science again and pronouncing his expert opinions about the state of the field.

Dude …. Looks like Walter has taken up residence in your “attic” … I hope you at least make him pay rent for the space …

187 iceweasel  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:45:13am

re: #184 ludwigvanquixote

DO me a kindness and find me an appropriately concerned trol Icon for Walter. HE is vrey concerned about proper science again and pronouncing his expert opinions about the state of the field.

I have the perfect one, but alas, the site is down.

188 Varek Raith  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:45:31am

re: #181 ludwigvanquixote

Are you being philosophical?

If by philosophical you mean “Varek’s got no clue how to post today” than, yes.
:)

189 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:47:10am

later peeps :)

190 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:48:16am

re: #186 _RememberTonyC

Dude … Looks like Walter has taken up residence in your “attic” … I hope you at least make him pay rent for the space …

NO he is not there yet. It is more like every time I try to make a serious point that people really need to get - in this case, that the history of climate predictions has been that reality turns out much worse than predicted, much faster than predicted, is lost in his attempts to cloud the issue with generalized smears about what is and is not settled.

I am talking about something that will kill people - billions of them - and is getting worse faster than expected consistently. He is trying to divert the issue yet again with false claims and supposed expertise. It is the most obnoxious insult to share a board with this bullshit.

191 b_sharp  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:49:12am

re: #183 ludwigvanquixote

I like b-sharp a lot actually.

You poor soul.

192 Ericus58  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:52:44am
193 iceweasel  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:53:50am

re: #184 ludwigvanquixote

DO me a kindness and find me an appropriately concerned trol Icon for Walter. HE is vrey concerned about proper science again and pronouncing his expert opinions about the state of the field.

Ah, here we go. This is the one I had in mind.

[Link: trollcats.com…]

This is the generic one I keep on hand for others.

194 iceweasel  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:54:42am

re: #193 iceweasel

Dang. Trying that first one again.

195 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:54:43am

re: #193 iceweasel

Ah, here we go. This is the one I had in mind.

[Link: trollcats.com…] t/

This is the generic one I keep on hand for others.

Thanks Babe.

196 solomonpanting  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:54:53am
197 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:56:17am

re: #192 Ericus58

[Video]

Ahh scientology…..

An evil and perverse cult if ever there was one.

198 b_sharp  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:58:14am

re: #197 ludwigvanquixote

Ahh scientology…

An evil and perverse cult if ever there was one.

I’m fascinated by their refusal to acknowledge that Hubbard was a science fiction writer.

199 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:58:22am

re: #190 ludwigvanquixote

NO he is not there yet. It is more like every time I try to make a serious point that people really need to get - in this case, that the history of climate predictions has been that reality turns out much worse than predicted, much faster than predicted, is lost in his attempts to cloud the issue with generalized smears about what is and is not settled.

I am talking about something that will kill people - billions of them - and is getting worse faster than expected consistently. He is trying to divert the issue yet again with false claims and supposed expertise. It is the most obnoxious insult to share a board with this bullshit.

And what do you propose should be done about that?

200 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:59:00am

re: #198 b_sharp

I’m fascinated by their refusal to acknowledge that Hubbard was a science fiction writer.

He was a science fiction writer? What an insult to science fiction writers.//

201 Gus  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:59:26am

re: #198 b_sharp

I’m fascinated by their refusal to acknowledge that Hubbard was a science fiction writer.

L. Ron Paul

/

202 iceweasel  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:59:47am

re: #192 Ericus58

re: #197 ludwigvanquixote

Super-fucked up story about scientology last week in the NYT:

Defectors Say Church of Scientology Hides Abuse

But after 13 years and growing disillusionment, the Collbrans decided to leave the Sea Org, setting off on a Kafkaesque journey that they said required them to sign false confessions about their personal lives and their work, pay the church thousands of dollars it said they owed for courses and counseling, and accept the consequences as their parents, siblings and friends who are church members cut off all communication with them.


Long but worth the read. Horrible what happened to that couple.

203 iceweasel  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:02:47pm

re: #195 ludwigvanquixote

Thanks Babe.

You’d like this one too. Got to deploy it on a troll a couple of weeks ago.

204 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:03:05pm

re: #202 iceweasel

re: #197 ludwigvanquixote

Super-fucked up story about scientology last week in the NYT:

Defectors Say Church of Scientology Hides Abuse


Long but worth the read. Horrible what happened to that couple.

I have read and studied enough about $cientology to be able to say, without even causing my “freedom of religion meter” to budge a centimeter, that $cientology should be shut down, by the Federal government. They are a criminal organization. Hands down.

I read that article last week.

205 jaunte  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:04:12pm

re: #204 Walter L. Newton

I agree. It’s a criminal organization that uses slave labor.

206 Gus  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:04:34pm

re: #202 iceweasel

re: #197 ludwigvanquixote

Super-fucked up story about scientology last week in the NYT:

Defectors Say Church of Scientology Hides Abuse

Long but worth the read. Horrible what happened to that couple.

They’re a strange lot. They have their own “navy.” David Miscavige is a low rent psycho — he’s the chairman of course. Then we have the most popular nut of the bunch, Tom Cruise.

Looked into them while I was poking around Topix.

207 Ericus58  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:04:49pm

I just can’t resist….

208 iceweasel  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:04:49pm

re: #204 Walter L. Newton

I have read and studied enough about $cientology to be able to say, without even causing my “freedom of religion meter” to budge a centimeter, that $cientology should be shut down, by the Federal government. They are a criminal organization. Hands down.

I read that article last week.

Agreed.
I posted it here last week; others did too, I’m sure.

209 bratwurst  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:06:00pm

re: #204 Walter L. Newton

I have read and studied enough about $cientology to be able to say, without even causing my “freedom of religion meter” to budge a centimeter, that $cientology should be shut down, by the Federal government. They are a criminal organization. Hands down.


I would be satisfied if they would just resume paying taxes like anyone else who runs a business has to.

210 iceweasel  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:07:19pm

re: #205 jaunte

I agree. It’s a criminal organization that uses slave labor.

re: #206 Gus 802

Yep. I had heard about the abuse allegations but never paid much attention to Scientology. The slave labour stuff was completely new to me— as was the business about pressuring the women to have abortions. Sick, sick.

211 Gus  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:07:58pm

Just in case you’ve never seen it.

Group photo of the Scientology “navy.”

There’s a story behind that navy and their initial “cancer boat.”

212 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:08:55pm

re: #211 Gus 802

Just in case you’ve never seen it.

Group photo of the Scientology “navy.”

There’s a story behind that navy and their initial “cancer boat.”

What’s the story?

213 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:09:55pm

re: #198 b_sharp

I’m fascinated by their refusal to acknowledge that Hubbard was a science fiction writer.

Back in graduate school I had German roomate who was curious about Scientology - since it is declared - correctly - to be a predatory cult in Germany and hence illegal. So he went down to the $cientologists and signed up our house on the mailing list.

Our house - we were all physics graduate students found perverse glee in reading their crazy literature. None of us really knew anything about them, so we all made them a sort of research project.

The more we found out, the less of a sick joke it was to study them and the more it became appalling.

The system they have has evolved to be very effective brainwashing and numerous hooks are set in at a slow and regular pace that remove the “seeker” from friends and family while binding them financially to the church.

In the mean time, the entire e-meter process very effectively puts someone into a situation where bizarre free associations replace reality and this reality distortion is publicly encouraged and brings acceptance. Since the subject feels that he is discovering himself and that his delusions are self generated, he falsely feels he is in control of the process.

THe end result is isolation from the real world and financial destitution cloaked in pseudo scientific sounding gobdle-gook.

The $cientologists love their acronyms and their private language that only insiders can share. More access to the “secret language” means higher status - and of course costs lots of money.

In one brochure alone, the combined cost of their “tech” was over $200,000

If you don’t have the 200k, that is alright, the Church will find a job for you working for them to pay off your “debts.”

Scientology is brutal too. Hundreds have been killed for trying to leave or questioning their nonsense. Thousands have been harassed or shamed and all of those “confidential” e-meter sessions make for amazing blackmail material because people are encouraged to give up their darkest secrets - and the Church keeps those files on all members for all time.

I could write for hours about all of the dirt we dug up on those monsters without even getting to how insane the belief structure is.

But I will leave it as this…

Xenu loves you!

214 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:10:02pm

re: #209 bratwurst

I would be satisfied if they would just resume paying taxes like anyone else who runs a business has to.

Then you need to do a little more research on the group. They are responsible for everything to infiltrating the IRS and theft of IRS records to murder. I don’t care how much tax they pay, it’s not worth it. That would be like saying it would be alright for the mob to me in existence as long as they pay taxes.

215 Gus  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:11:36pm

re: #212 Dark_Falcon

What’s the story?

It’s been over a year. I’d have to find it again. It was based on a story of some former members of boat crew that came down with illnesses. Asbestos…

OK, look through here: scientology freewinds cancer

216 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:11:48pm

re: #204 Walter L. Newton

I have read and studied enough about $cientology to be able to say, without even causing my “freedom of religion meter” to budge a centimeter, that $cientology should be shut down, by the Federal government. They are a criminal organization. Hands down.

I read that article last week.

Here we agree whole heartedly.

217 Racer X  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:11:55pm

Here is what Racer X will do:

CFL bulbs go in when the old ones burn out.
Cut down on water usage.
Refuse to buy shit from China.
Keep my car tuned properly.
Inflate my tires and stop being a lead foot.
Gently point the deniers to reliable scientific papers.
Eat less beef.
Lower my output of waste.
Conserve.

It may not help one stinking bit, but GW is real, and it could turn things to shit. Or it just may be a pain in the ass for a while. Either way I’m going to try to do what I can short of hara-kiri in dark cave.

218 Jadespring  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:12:01pm

Breaking news: Shoveling chicken shit ain’t fun. One part of ‘spring cleaning’ that I really could do without.

219 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:12:41pm

re: #202 iceweasel

Seriously though, what kind of toolbag signs or tries to enforce a billion year long contract? I think the mere act of doing so should meet the definition of diminished capacity, and such contracts be inherently unenforceable.

220 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:13:01pm
221 Killgore Trout  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:14:12pm

re: #217 Racer X

Here is what Racer X will do:

CFL bulbs go in when the old ones burn out.
Cut down on water usage.
Refuse to buy shit from China.
Keep my car tuned properly.
Inflate my tires and stop being a lead foot.
Gently point the deniers to reliable scientific papers.
Eat less beef.
Lower my output of waste.
Conserve.

It may not help one stinking bit, but GW is real, and it could turn things to shit. Or it just may be a pain in the ass for a while. Either way I’m going to try to do what I can short of hara-kiri in dark cave.

Those are all probably good things to do anyways. Good for you.

222 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:15:17pm

re: #213 ludwigvanquixote

Back in graduate school I had German roomate who was curious about Scientology - since it is declared - correctly - to be a predatory cult in Germany and hence illegal. So he went down to the $cientologists and signed up our house on the mailing list.

Our house - we were all physics graduate students found perverse glee in reading their crazy literature. None of us really knew anything about them, so we all made them a sort of research project.

The more we found out, the less of a sick joke it was to study them and the more it became appalling.

The system they have has evolved to be very effective brainwashing and numerous hooks are set in at a slow and regular pace that remove the “seeker” from friends and family while binding them financially to the church.

In the mean time, the entire e-meter process very effectively puts someone into a situation where bizarre free associations replace reality and this reality distortion is publicly encouraged and brings acceptance. Since the subject feels that he is discovering himself and that his delusions are self generated, he falsely feels he is in control of the process.

THe end result is isolation from the real world and financial destitution cloaked in pseudo scientific sounding gobdle-gook.

The $cientologists love their acronyms and their private language that only insiders can share. More access to the “secret language” means higher status - and of course costs lots of money.

In one brochure alone, the combined cost of their “tech” was over $200,000

If you don’t have the 200k, that is alright, the Church will find a job for you working for them to pay off your “debts.”

Scientology is brutal too. Hundreds have been killed for trying to leave or questioning their nonsense. Thousands have been harassed or shamed and all of those “confidential” e-meter sessions make for amazing blackmail material because people are encouraged to give up their darkest secrets - and the Church keeps those files on all members for all time.

I could write for hours about all of the dirt we dug up on those monsters without even getting to how insane the belief structure is.

But I will leave it as this…

Xenu loves you!

Spot on… expect for the “Hundreds have been killed.” There is under 8 “documented” cases of members who have died and their deaths can be almost certainly attributed to neglect to outright murder. Unless you have figures that I haven’t seen recently.

223 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:15:21pm

re: #219 goddamnedfrank

Seriously though, what kind of toolbag signs or tries to enforce a billion year long contract? I think the mere act of doing so should meet the definition of diminished capacity, and such contracts be inherently unenforceable.

A monster control freak who sent his second wife and several close friends to infiltrate the U.S. government (for which they were arrested and went to prison) and had to spend hiss last years of life at sea in order to avoid arrest.

224 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:16:04pm

re: #222 Walter L. Newton

Spot on… expect for the “Hundreds have been killed.” There is under 8 “documented” cases of members who have died and their deaths can be almost certainly attributed to neglect to outright murder. Unless you have figures that I haven’t seen recently.

I’ll have to look for the references that I got the number from. I did not make it up however.

225 Gus  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:16:47pm

Scientology cancer boat…

Freewinds - Environmental issues

In April 2008, the Freewinds was shut down after cancer-causing blue asbestos was discovered during maintenance by the Curaçao Drydock Company. Blue asbestos is the most dangerous form of asbestos, and the ship is reported to be “extensively contaminated”. According to InsuranceNewsNet, “Decontamination, if it is even possible, is likely to cost tens of millions of dollars and would result in the ship being in dry dock for many months.”[6] The discovery confirmed a 2001 allegation by former Scientologist Lawrence Woodcraft, who had overseen the original renovation of the Freewinds in 1987. The Captain also admitted that during previous maintenance performed by his personnel, asbestos was released into the ventilation system but not reported.

The Church of Scientology denied that there is an asbestos problem, commenting in May 2008 that “there is not now and never has been a situation of asbestos exposure on the Freewinds.” [24] Karin Pouw, spokesperson for the Church of Scientology, told Radar Magazine that the air quality on the ship was regularly tested and “always meets or exceeds US standards”, even though she has never docked in the United States, and has never received reviewing there. The Church contracted Nordica Engineering to perform renovations on the Freewinds and denied the presence of blue asbestos during talks. To remove material from the ship, Nordica brought in 240 Polish workers, who lived on the Freewinds for a month and a half. When workers told Nordica there was blue asbestos on the ship, they stopped renovations and workers returned to Poland. Witold Maliński stated that Nordica was looking to demand compensation on behalf of its workers.

The Freewinds has been noted in Bonaire for the amount of waste water it dumps into the island’s inland waste pit. According to one 2007 report, the ship sometimes sends four loads of waste per hour, contributing to a growing environmental problem on the island.

It’s really a ship but since it’s connected to the Xenu cult I’m calling it a boat.

226 Gus  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:18:53pm

re: #210 iceweasel

re: #206 Gus 802

Yep. I had heard about the abuse allegations but never paid much attention to Scientology. The slave labour stuff was completely new to me— as was the business about pressuring the women to have abortions. Sick, sick.

I heard about the abortions. Also the famous death of Lisa McPherson. Sometimes the young women are essentially abducted or held away from their families.

227 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:19:25pm

re: #224 ludwigvanquixote

I’ll have to look for the references that I got the number from. I did not make it up however.

Fine… seven years ago, I could rattle off facts and figures about Scientology like I was L Ron himself. I haven’t kept a real close watch on them since then, just the occasional article like the one above.

If you have a link or a reference, I would be interested.

228 Randall Gross  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:20:33pm

re: #222 Walter L. Newton

What’s the harm in Scientology?

This guy collects empirical evidence for cults etc.

229 iceweasel  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:20:37pm

re: #220 Killgore Trout

Looks like we’re almost there…

Gibbs: By next Sunday, healthcare reform will be ‘law of the land’

Yup. Not just Gibbs is sounding confident, either:

It’s hard to say with any certainty whether the confidence is driven by bravado, behind-the-scenes commitments, or a whip strategy, but on the morning shows this morning, leading Democrats sure did sound confident about the fate of health care reform.

White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said the healthcare bill will pass by next weekend.
“We’ll have the votes when the House votes, I think, within the next week,” Gibbs said on “Fox News Sunday.”
Gibbs added that those on next week’s Sunday talk shows “will be talking about healthcare not as a presidential proposal but I think as the law of the land.”

David Axelrod added the votes will “be there at the end of the day,” adding, “I believe it is going to happen this week.”

House Majority Whip* James Clyburn (D-S.C.), whose job it is to count votes, said this morning, “No, we don’t have them as of this morning. But we’ve been working this thing all weekend, we’ll be working it going into the week. I’m also very confident that we’ll get this done. I’ve been talking to members for a long time on this, and they have the will to do it.”

I haven’t seen any vote count, from anyone, that shows the majority near 216, but there seems to be a sense that as the various elements fall into place — a CBO score, a final reconciliation budget fix, an unambiguous commitment from the Senate, the likely inclusion of student-loan reform — the majority will fall into place, too.

The gamesmanship and strategizing is hard to decipher from the outside, but if the leadership thought there was a reasonable chance the votes simply wouldn’t materialize, the Democratic rhetoric this morning would sound quite a bit different.

230 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:21:41pm

re: #210 iceweasel

re: #206 Gus 802

Yep. I had heard about the abuse allegations but never paid much attention to Scientology. The slave labour stuff was completely new to me— as was the business about pressuring the women to have abortions. Sick, sick.

OMG yes, the stories from Sea.org the private $cientology navy (well crew of their yachts, are amongst the most brutal.

These are sick, sick, twisted people and they have a huge amount of control over their followers.

I personally think a good first step would be to remove the words Church from their title and deny them the ability to falsely claim they are a CHurch.

Since they believe that all religious figures - including Jesus - were engrams implanted into the thetans (murdered alien spirits, killed by hydrogen weapons on Earth by Xenu) who infest your body and are hence a lie, $cientology is by definition not a church.

Call me dogmatic, but to be a Church, you ought to believe in Jesus and not claim he was an Alien brainwash device. Further, you aught not use a cross as your symbol.

231 bratwurst  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:21:56pm

re: #214 Walter L. Newton

Then you need to do a little more research on the group. They are responsible for everything to infiltrating the IRS and theft of IRS records to murder. I don’t care how much tax they pay, it’s not worth it. That would be like saying it would be alright for the mob to me in existence as long as they pay taxes.

I have read two of the books they have tried to suppress, so I was making an understatement there. I cannot disagree with you at all.

BTW: I lived in Germany for many years and frequently had to sign a Scientology clause when accepting freelance work…stating I would not teach Scientology or use their “technology” in my classroom!

232 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:24:05pm

re: #217 Racer X

Here is what Racer X will do:

CFL bulbs go in when the old ones burn out.
Cut down on water usage.
Refuse to buy shit from China.
Keep my car tuned properly.
Inflate my tires and stop being a lead foot.
Gently point the deniers to reliable scientific papers.
Eat less beef.
Lower my output of waste.
Conserve.

It may not help one stinking bit, but GW is real, and it could turn things to shit. Or it just may be a pain in the ass for a while. Either way I’m going to try to do what I can short of hara-kiri in dark cave.

Good on you!

233 lostlakehiker  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:24:09pm

re: #80 NJDhockeyfan

UN climate change claims on rainforests were wrong, study suggests

OK, let’s grant for the sake of argument that a UN panel got something wrong. It wouldn’t be the first time the UN has been wrong, and it wouldn’t by a long shot be the first time that a scientist has been wrong about something.

Science is bigger than any one scientist, and the science of global warming like any human endeavor includes its quota of human error and human failings. What about it? Please do look at the big picture. See my post above about gamblers. (# 45 from this thread.) We are gambling with our future. The odds are ugly.

The evidence of global warming includes strong evidence, interesting evidence, and weak evidence. Lawyers love to pick at the weak evidence, but good jurors hone in on the main facts of the case and do not get distracted by side issues.

A good prosecutor won’t bring any weak evidence to a case where he has strong evidence, but science isn’t done by prosecutors. Every scientist beavers away at his own project, and some of them come up with weak results. Many more come up with interesting results, and some of those will eventually be confirmed so massively that they can be put into the category of established beyond reasonable doubt. Others will find that their interesting result doesn’t hold up well under further scrutiny, and the claim goes into the weak-evidence category. But overall, the evidence is piling up.

You misunderstand the situation if you think that a mountain of evidence is nothing but a molehill, just because you can see that some sand is blowing off from the side of that mountain. The mountain can withstand the loss of a few pounds of sand, or a few tons.

The mountain here is the retreat of the glaciers, the compression of boreal winter into a span of fewer weeks, with the first freezes coming later and the spring thaw coming earlier, and other similar bombproof indicators. The mountain is the crude simple physics fact that CO2 is a greenhouse gas. The mountain is the crude simple measurement trend: CO2 is rising steadily, inexorably, and at an accelerating rate. And why? Just look around at all the coal-fired electric generating stations. Look at the busy coal mines of the world, and the endless trains bringing more coal from the Rockies to Texas, or from the back reaches of China to Shanghai.

When you burn coal, you get CO2. When you burn a lot of it, you get a lot of CO2. Houston, we have a problem.

234 iceweasel  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:24:39pm

More in re: HCR

Also: Dick Durbin gave House Dems strong assurances that the Senate will pass the reconciliation fix desired by the House, which could prove reassuring to members of the House wary of the Senate’s intentions.

“We’re in the process of actually contacting every single Democratic Senator,” Durbin said on Meet the Press. “When Nancy Pelosi goes before her Democratic caucus, it will be with the solid assurance that when reconciliation comes over to the Senate side, we’re gonna pass it.”

We’ll see.

235 Gus  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:24:56pm

re: #230 ludwigvanquixote

OMG yes, the stories from Sea.org the private $cientology navy (well crew of their yachts, are amongst the most brutal.

These are sick, sick, twisted people and they have a huge amount of control over their followers.

I personally think a good first step would be to remove the words Church from their title and deny them the ability to falsely claim they are a CHurch.

Since they believe that all religious figures - including Jesus - were engrams implanted into the thetans (murdered alien spirits, killed by hydrogen weapons on Earth by Xenu) who infest your body and are hence a lie, $cientology is by definition not a church.

Call me dogmatic, but to be a Church, you ought to believe in Jesus and not claim he was an Alien brainwash device. Further, you aught not use a cross as your symbol.

Call me cynical but I think having church status reversed for Scientology would be next to impossible especially in this country. They face far more scrutiny in Europe. It would however be a good idea but I don’t see that ever happening in our lifetimes. Just about any group can create a church in the USA just like anybody can put on a hat and pronounce themselves a reverend.

236 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:25:55pm

re: #228 Thanos

What’s the harm in Scientology?

This guy collects empirical evidence for cults etc.

Ok… I see how they are compiling figures. My “under 8 deaths” was in reference to actual questionable deaths with Sea Org members and a few others.

I can see how the figure could be higher if you include all sorts of deaths that could be attributed to one aspect of Scientology or another.

Over all, these people should be shut down, it’s no better than re-socialization and mind control, and in a sense, all long terms members are already “dead” to the real world.

237 Gus  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:27:09pm

re: #234 iceweasel

More in re: HCR

We’ll see.

Have to wait and see for sure. Gibbs tends to rather optimistic from time to time.

238 Randall Gross  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:27:15pm

re: #233 lostlakehiker

When you burn coal, you get CO2. When you burn a lot of it, you get a lot of CO2. Houston, we have a problem.

You also get millions of tons of radioactive and poisonous ash and slag that pollutes our groundwater and rivers.

239 darthstar  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:27:56pm

Beautiful day…sun is shining…winds aren’t too heavy. Time to take the dogs to the beach and check out an open house…I like this place…though I’d like a bit of proerty around it. Still, it’s next to a green-belt, so it’s not like I’ll get a bunch of neighbors building across the street.

240 iceweasel  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:28:21pm

re: #237 Gus 802

Have to wait and see for sure. Gibbs tends to rather optimistic from time to time.

Oh totally. That’s why I wanted to post similar sentiments coming from others— not just him.

241 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:28:43pm

Happy ∏ Day!

242 zora  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:28:48pm

re: #228 Thanos

from that website: Breatharianism

i have to say that this takes the cake. wtf can they be thinking.

from wiki:
Breatharianism is a related concept, in which believers claim food and possibly water are not necessary, and that humans can be sustained solely by prana (the vital life force in Hinduism), or according to some, by the energy in sunlight. The terms breatharianism or inedia may also refer to this philosophy practiced as a lifestyle in place of the usual diet.

243 Randall Gross  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:28:49pm

re: #236 Walter L. Newton

I’m not sure who “they” is, I’m just pointing out one data source W. Hope today finds you in good health.

244 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:28:59pm

re: #235 Gus 802

Call me cynical but I think having church status reversed for Scientology would be next to impossible especially in this country. They face far more scrutiny in Europe. It would however be a good idea but I don’t see that ever happening in our lifetimes. Just about any group can create a church in the USA just like anybody can put on a hat and pronounce themselves a reverend.

There is enough documented facts that would certainly stand up in court if they were changed with RICO crimes. Whether any politician or law enforcement agency has the nerve to do it is questionable right now.

Scientology has a LOT of personal information on important people, people who are not even members.

245 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:29:32pm

Does Church of $ci still go after everybody who disses them on Internet forums?

/my real name is “Jane Smith”

246 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:30:05pm

re: #235 Gus 802

Call me cynical but I think having church status reversed for Scientology would be next to impossible especially in this country. They face far more scrutiny in Europe. It would however be a good idea but I don’t see that ever happening in our lifetimes. Just about any group can create a church in the USA just like anybody can put on a hat and pronounce themselves a reverend.

So calling yourself a religion is one thing. I am talking about calling yourself a “church” when you don’t believe in Jesus.

I mean you could call yourself a synagogue and teach that Moses and Mosaic law were the mind control constructs of an Alien overlord named Xenu but you would be lying about the synagogue part.

A first step to getting them back from religion to cult business is to remove the false label of church. Church is where Christians pray. It does not mean any house of worship.

247 Gus  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:30:36pm

re: #244 Walter L. Newton

There is enough documented facts that would certainly stand up in court if they were changed with RICO crimes. Whether any politician or law enforcement agency has the nerve to do it is questionable right now.

Scientology has a LOT of personal information on important people, people who are not even members.

They’re probably reading this as we type collecting information. ;)

248 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:31:12pm

re: #245 Alouette

Does Church of $ci still go after everybody who disses them on Internet forums?

/my real name is “Jane Smith”

Technically… yes. But “everybody” is a lot of people.

249 Racer X  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:31:40pm

re: #247 Gus 802

They’re probably reading this as we type collecting information. ;)

Hi Tom!

*waves*

250 MandyManners  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:32:11pm

Suspected drug cartel “hit teams” murdered two Americans from the US consulate in the Mexican border city of Ciudad Juarez as well as the Mexican husband of a co-worker in two separate attacks, a US official.

The victims came under fire in separate locations as they were driving Saturday after attending the same social event, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

“Suspected drug cartel hit teams fired on locally employed staff, Consulate General Juarez, in their privately owned vehicles,” the official said.

“The attacks resulted in three fatalities – two American citizens and one Mexican citizen,” he said.

A US woman who worked in the consulate’s American citizens services section was with her husband and infant daughter when they came under fire, the official said.
The infant daughter survived the attack unharmed, but the woman and her husband were killed, he said.

In the second attack, a Mexican consulate employee was following her husband and two children in a separate car, when her husband’s vehicle came under fire, killing him and wounding the two children, the official said.

SNIP

251 jaunte  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:32:49pm

re: #249 Racer X

Tom doesn’t read, he has blackmailed, brainwashed slaves to do it for him.

252 Gus  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:33:41pm

re: #246 ludwigvanquixote

So calling yourself a religion is one thing. I am talking about calling yourself a “church” when you don’t believe in Jesus.

I mean you could call yourself a synagogue and teach that Moses and Mosaic law were the mind control constructs of an Alien overlord named Xenu but you would be lying about the synagogue part.

A first step to getting them back from religion to cult business is to remove the false label of church. Church is where Christians pray. It does not mean any house of worship.

Oh. Well, in that case one would have to look for the legal definition of church by the IRS. They had to go to court to get church status.

253 darthstar  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:33:48pm

re: #251 jaunte

Tom doesn’t read, he has blackmailed, brainwashed slaves to do it for him.

Hi Tom’s blackmailed, brainwashed slaves! Your boss is a dick.

254 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:34:30pm

Jumpin’ Jehovas, it’s ∏ Day!

255 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:34:55pm

re: #249 Racer X

Hi Tom!

*waves*

Here is one of the better US sites that deals primarily with Scientology (and a little on other cults)

[Link: www.factnet.org…]

For an international site… Operation Clambake

[Link: www.xenu.net…]

My best recommendations.

256 solomonpanting  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:34:59pm

re: #251 jaunte

Tom doesn’t read, he has blackmailed, brainwashed slaves to do it for him.

Must be what’s referred to as Cruise Control.

257 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:35:03pm

re: #245 Alouette

Does Church of $ci still go after everybody who disses them on Internet forums?

/my real name is “Jane Smith”

Ask Tom Cruise.

Scientology made a very concerted effort in the 70’s and then on to attract Hollywood types to their flock. The Hollywood types are given a sort of regal status and their little egos are flattered all the way through.

They are told what they always suspected - that they are superior beings with vast potential and powers.

It doubles as an incredible propaganda arm for them. Since many people are stupid enough to believe that celebrity opinions are somehow meaningful.

The fact is that $cientology’s numbers are growing and they have sufficient money to put out many PR campaigns to deflect unwanted questions about their less savory practices.

The only good news is that the more that Guys like Tom Cruise self destruct publicly, the more people will ask questions.

258 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:35:07pm

re: #242 zora

from that website: Breatharianism

i have to say that this takes the cake. wtf can they be thinking.

from wiki:
Breatharianism is a related concept, in which believers claim food and possibly water are not necessary, and that humans can be sustained solely by prana (the vital life force in Hinduism), or according to some, by the energy in sunlight. The terms breatharianism or inedia may also refer to this philosophy practiced as a lifestyle in place of the usual diet.

The people who promote this bullshit were observed eating cheeseburgers and twinkies, and guzzling Coca-cola. Meanwhile some of their deluded followers passed away.

259 Political Atheist  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:36:59pm

re: #242 zora

It seems every practice developed gets over rated, over applied. All balance is lost with these extreme practices. At the Temple I studied at this was called the enamoration of the fruit, rather than the better practice of cultivating the whole tree.

260 jaunte  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:37:41pm

re: #254 Jeff In Ohio

Jumpin’ Jehovas, it’s ∏ Day!

The first Pi Day celebration was held at the San Francisco Exploratorium in 1988, with staff and public marching around one of its circular spaces, then consuming fruit pies. The museum has since added pizza to its Pi Day menu. The founder of Pi Day was Larry Shaw, a now-retired physicist at the Exploratorium who still helps out with the celebrations.[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]


Pizza!

261 Randall Gross  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:37:41pm

re: #255 Walter L. Newton

Cult News Network usually keeps up on what’s new with Scientology pretty well, along with fundamentalists and cultists of all religions.
[Link: www.cultnews.net…]

What’s the harm carries other pages too,

[Link: whatstheharm.net…]

These are both good sites for lizards to bookmark & periodically check.

262 Gus  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:38:28pm

re: #260 jaunte

Pizza!

Pia Zadora!

263 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:38:38pm

Wiley Brooks

Wiley Brooks is a purported breatharian, and founder of the “Breatharian Institute of America”. He was first introduced to the public in 1980, when he appeared on the TV show That’s Incredible!. Wiley has stopped teaching in recent years, so he can “devote 100% of his time on solving the problem as to why he needed to eat some type of food to keep his physical body alive and allow his light body to manifest completely.” Wiley Brooks believes that he has found “four major deterrents” which prevented him from living without food: “people pollution”, “food pollution”, “air pollution” and “electro pollution”. In 1983 he was allegedly observed leaving a Santa Cruz 7-Eleven with a Slurpee, hot dog and Twinkies.

He told Colors magazine in 2003 that he periodically breaks his fasting with a cheeseburger and a cola, explaining that when he’s surrounded by junk culture and junk food, consuming them adds balance. On his website, Brooks explains that his future followers must first prepare by combining the junk food diet with the meditative incantation of five magic “fifth-dimensional” words which appear on his website. In the “5D Q&A” section of his website Brooks explains that cows are fifth-dimensional beings or higher that help mankind achieve fifth-dimensional status by converting three-dimensional food to five-dimensional food (beef) while in the “Holy Cows” section of the website a picture of cows with glowing eyes is provided so that the readers can sense the energy of the picture. In the “Question and Answer” section of his website, Brooks explains that the “Double Quarter-Pounder with Cheese” meal from McDonald’s possesses a special “base frequency” and that he thus recommends it as occasional food for beginning breatharians. He then goes on to reveal that the secret of Diet Coke is “liquid light”. Prospective disciples are asked after some time on this junk food/magic word preparation to revisit his website in order to test if they can feel the magic.

He further mentions that those interested can call him on his fifth-dimensional phone number in order to get the correct pronunciation of the five magic words. In case the line is busy, prospective recruits are asked to meditate on the five magic words for a few minutes, and then try calling again; he does not explain how anyone can meditate with words they cannot yet pronounce. Brooks’s “institute”, in the past, charged varying fees to prospective clients who wished to learn how to live without food, which ranged from US$15 million to US$25 million. A payment plan was also offered. These charges have historically been presented as limited time offers exclusively for billionaires. New lower fees have been set to US$100,000 with an initial deposit of US$10,000.

264 Racer X  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:38:42pm

I confused.

At the end of the health care summit, when everyone was giving their winding down speeches and everything seemed quite cordial, Nancy Pelosi pissed all over the floor when she reprimanded Republicans over the “lies” about abortion being included in the bill.

I do not know a whole lot about this - but can someone explain to me what the Stupak amendment is? Because it looks like an amendment specifically stating that there will be no funding for abortion.

Why do that then?

265 Political Atheist  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:39:37pm

re: #217 Racer X

That’s the idea. Bottom up change. Do not wait for the government. Given the human havoc of most energy usage-I can make an excellent quality of life argument in addition to all the AGW data.

266 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:39:56pm

AH jeez, how about 100 percent of fresh water fish tested in 291 streams by the U.S. Geological Survey were found to be contaminated with mercury.

[Link: conspiringtimes.com…]

The highest concentrations are in the south.

I’m going to celebrate 3.14 with my wife.

267 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:41:18pm

re: #265 Rightwingconspirator

That’s the idea. Bottom up change. Do not wait for the government. Given the human havoc of most energy usage-I can make an excellent quality of life argument in addition to all the AGW data.

Another simple thing that you can do is to see taking a shower as something to get clean in 5-10 minutes and not a 20 minute steamy recreational event.

Hot water needs to be heated.

I am not saying don’t be clean G-d forbid, but you can be just as clean and a little more disciplined about your usage.

268 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:41:26pm

re: #263 Alouette

And I thought I had heard of every possible nut group that falls into this sort of category. Thanks (well, maybe no thanks) for adding to my knowledge :)

269 lostlakehiker  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:42:38pm

re: #238 Thanos

You also get millions of tons of radioactive and poisonous ash and slag that pollutes our groundwater and rivers.

Actually, real though that is, if it was the only problem it would not necessarily lead to the conclusion that burning coal for electricity is bad .

Not even if we add in the environmental destruction that goes with strip mining, or the loss of human life to mining accidents that goes with deep mining.

Electricity arguably saves more lives than all these downsides cost. Electricity is indispensable to industrial civilization. To cut our consumption of kwh’s to a mere fraction of what we now use would be very painful. Human beings are wired to avoid pain. We will never gain public consent on an agenda of pain now, pain tomorrow, pain for decades, to avoid some more distant calamity. Gradually replacing coal with wind, solar, nuclear, etc. is different. Less painful, if less effective than a sudden coal-free crash diet, it can be sufficient to mitigate the scale of the coming hit we must take from AGW.

Also, I’m uneasy with talking points that add to the pile of “weak evidence”. We have a strong case. We don’t need to bring up weak side issues like this. They will unconvince more people than they will convince, and those who find this argument compelling are probably in our choir already.

270 MandyManners  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:43:26pm

re: #261 Thanos

The 6-year-old son of a Colorado nursing student who ran off to Europe to join a terrorist murder cell was brainwashed into a hate-filled Islamic fundamentalist zombie, his family said Saturday, The New York Post reported.

“He said that Christians will burn in hellfire,” the child’s grandmother, Christine Mott, told The Post. “That’s what they are teaching this baby.”

The boy’s mom, Jamie Paulin-Ramirez, 31, converted to Islam over the last year. Her family said she struck up an Internet friendship with another Colorado radical, Najibullah Zazi, an Al Qaeda associate who pleaded guilty last month in a plot to set off bombs in the New York subway system.

Her conversion was so complete, Paulin-Ramirez changed her son’s name from Christian to the Islamic name Walid after enrolling him in a fire-breathing Muslim school in Ireland.

The terror mom’s stepfather, George Mott, said he talked by phone once with the boy at the school and the boy said: “We are building pipes [pipe bombs], like the Fourth of July!”

SNIP

271 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:43:33pm

re: #250 MandyManners

Suspected drug cartel “hit teams” murdered two Americans from the US consulate in the Mexican border city of Ciudad Juarez as well as the Mexican husband of a co-worker in two separate attacks, a US official.

SNIP

I don’t know what the cartels are trying to do with this. It seems likely to provoke a hostile US reaction, and they have not wanted those heretofore.

272 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:43:47pm

Any Scientologist out there want to talk about this?

273 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:43:52pm

re: #245 Alouette

re: #257 ludwigvanquixote

I misread your question when I wrote 257.

The answer is yes they certainly do go after people as much as they can. However, the number of people who are spreading the unsavory details of their cult is now large enough - and they are now large enough to draw more general attention, that it is very hard for them to suppress the stories.

274 MandyManners  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:44:22pm

re: #263 Alouette

ALL PRAISE TO THE BIG MAC!

275 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:44:47pm

re: #272 Walter L. Newton

Any Scientologist out there want to talk about this?

What is your SIN Walter!

////

276 Political Atheist  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:45:05pm

re: #257 ludwigvanquixote

Hi
I just watched a long show about a reasearch project at sea bottom. Year after year these biologists go down and check the same tubeworm colonies that they had dyed blue, to check their growth rate.

Thing is methane hydrate was bubbling up at quite a rate. They were sampling that too. Sampling it in a high temperature container, then opening that in a frozen room onboard ship.

Anyway my point is the sheer volume I could see coming out in the short area lit by the deep sub lights. Enough to completely cover a downward facing camera lens in short order. Scary.

277 Gus  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:45:34pm

re: #275 ludwigvanquixote

What is your SIN Walter!

///

He missed his last audit.

Quick! To the E-Meter!

/

278 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:46:01pm

Wiley Brooks is obviously a spoof, but it would not surprise me at all if there are freaking idiots who actually believe this shit.

279 Randall Gross  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:48:14pm

re: #269 lostlakehiker

I don’t consider 30-50k deaths from coal mining and poisoning of our water supply weak evidence, and haven’t for thirty years. I think every coal plant needs to get replaced with a nuclear one. I do however agree with your argument: we can’t just shut down the KWH’s they provide without replacing them with something equally as stable and cheap. Otherwise people become unemployed, people starve, economies collapse, Riots and wars ensue, etc.

280 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:48:42pm

re: #275 ludwigvanquixote

What is your SIN Walter!

///

Dianetics is a “science of mental health” as the full title of Hubbard’s 1950 book declares. The main theory of dianetics is that the human has two minds, the Analytical mind and the Reactive mind. The Analytical mind is a perfectly working device, and life would be wonderful were it not for the Reactive mind lousing up the workings of the Analytical mind. The Reactive mind stores memories of events in our life when we were unconscious and in pain. These memories are perfect recordings of the events, but the problem occurs because they are not stored in the Analytical mind. These memories can be triggered or restimulated by events in our environment that the Reactive mind interprets as similar to one of its memories. When the Reactive mind spots such a similarity, it attempts to take over from the Analytical mind. This is a problem because the Reactive mind is “moronic” and screws things up horribly and disrupts the proper activities of the Analytical mind.

281 Political Atheist  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:48:50pm

re: #271 Dark_Falcon

According to an LA times article last year-They have committed (according to intercepted orders) to protecting their shipments more violently north of the border. The southwest is seeing more and more cartel kidnapping and murders than ever. American are getting swept up.

282 iceweasel  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:49:18pm

OT, but—
So there’s finally an excerpt out from the new Ian McEwan novel (I looove him). It’s about AGW and features a physicist whose penis freezes and snaps off:

Post-Atonement Ian McEwan wrote a satirical global-warming thriller wherein a man tries to pee outdoors in -26F Norway, then experiences shrinkage so severe his dick turns into a frosty popsicle, cracks, and slips out the leg of his pants.

Praise be the gods of Page Six that this is the first excerpt I’ve seen from Solar. Protagonist Michael Beard is a physicist whose wife leaves him when she discovers he’d had eleven affairs. He goes on a trip to the Arctic to “see global warming for himself.” While in Norway, the following occurs:

As the polar wind raged … he watched in horror as his penis shrank even smaller, and curled tighter against the zip. And not only was it diminishing before his eyes, but it was turning white. Not the white of a blank page, but the sparkling silver of a Christmas bauble.

…his unfortunate [member] was as hard as ice … He let himself be guided back to [his guide’s] Ski-Doo and it was there that the calamity finally happened. As he raised a leg to hoist himself onto his place behind the guide, he felt, and even thought he heard, a terrible rending pain in his groin, a cracking and a parting, like a birth, like a glacier calving. He gave a shout…

The punch line, Page Six writes, “is one of the sickest meet-cutes ever.” Beard boards an Arctic cruise ship and a pretty lady initiates conversation: “This just dropped out the bottom of your trousers.” Dear Literary Master Ian McEwan, I am pre-ordering your book right now. [P6]

283 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:50:27pm

re: #90 NJDhockeyfan

If you are in Latvia on Tuesday they are having a parade…a Nazi parade.

David Cameron’s rightwing ‘allies’ march in Riga to commemorate the SS

And yet, the Freepers are freaking out because we’re sending people to honor the Red Army’s contribution to the war.

284 MandyManners  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:51:31pm

re: #271 Dark_Falcon

I don’t know what the cartels are trying to do with this. It seems likely to provoke a hostile US reaction, and they have not wanted those heretofore.

What are we gonna’ do about it? It’s on sovereign territory.

285 Gus  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:51:45pm

I forgot about those circle and diamond symbols that Scientology uses for their facilities. Example here and here.

Just in case the “DC-9s” come back. /

286 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:53:33pm

re: #276 Rightwingconspirator

Hi
I just watched a long show about a reasearch project at sea bottom. Year after year these biologists go down and check the same tubeworm colonies that they had dyed blue, to check their growth rate.

Thing is methane hydrate was bubbling up at quite a rate. They were sampling that too. Sampling it in a high temperature container, then opening that in a frozen room onboard ship.

Anyway my point is the sheer volume I could see coming out in the short area lit by the deep sub lights. Enough to completely cover a downward facing camera lens in short order. Scary.

As it should be. There are so many dozens of interlinked systems that are being thrown out of whack by AGW that the reason that the predictions are always too genrous is that no one has fully accounted for all of the things going wrong and just how powerful all of the feedbacks are.

We know that the feedbacks are there. We can prove that they must be there and give the mechanism for many of them. What makes things more difficult is predicting the feedbacks of the feedbacks.

Again, this always makes things worse and not better.

Any one effect would be bad enough to demand action.

But let’s look at the oceans a minute. We are looking at ocean anoxia, and the collapse of thermo haline circulation coupled with massive methane release from the oceans.

Now what does anoxia mean to you?

It means not enough oxygen. This is caused by the mass death of oceanic photosynthesizes coupled with saturation of the oceans by CO2.

DO fish need to breathe?

Of course they do, that is what their gills are for.

We are realistically looking at a future where the oceans are devoid of all of the life we are used to interacting with.

I can not comment on the critters a mile down, but then again we don’t fish for them either.

The human impact of this is of course mass starvation. But also consider a future world with no dolphins or whales or sharks or clams or shrimp or coral reefs.

GO to a zoo. We are one of the last generations to know what a tiger is.

And what have we traded tigers and dolphins for? Cheap shit from China, huge cars and making Arabs and Texans rich.

287 Ericus58  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:54:10pm

re: #257 ludwigvanquixote

“The only good news is that the more that Guys like Tom Cruise self destruct publicly, the more people will ask questions.”

So THAT’S what happened to Tiger….

288 Gus  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:54:31pm

re: #283 SanFranciscoZionist

And yet, the Freepers are freaking out because we’re sending people to honor the Red Army’s contribution to the war.

Some related news from Israel:

PM: Israel to erect Red Army memorial
BY HERB KEINON
17/02/2010 03:35

Netanyahu tells Putin gesture to commemorate crucial role in victory over Nazis.

289 Interesting Times  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:54:39pm

re: #217 Racer X

Here is what Racer X will do:
Refuse to buy shit from China.

Is that even doable, though? :( The way things are set up at present, I honestly think it’s impossible to go a day without either buying or using something from there (see the bottom of your keyboard or mouse, for starters…I think I’d have better luck finding a cure for cancer than an appliance, electronic device, or item of clothing without the ubiquitous “Made in China” label…)

290 Jadespring  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:54:55pm

re: #276 Rightwingconspirator

I can’t even read the reports and studies that are coming out anymore regarding methane. Years ago when we talked about the potential issues with methane and climate it was unsettling enough and back then it was mostly just theory. Now what appears to be happening is in some cases even beyond any of the worst case theoretical predictions and yeah it’s damn scary and worrisome. This isn’t denial on my part, it’s far from it, it’s more a protection of my own personal sanity and protection against losing whatever hope I still have that the political and social will, will change in enough time to make any sort of real difference. I already know enough to understand the potential consequences and yeah it’s potentially really, really bad.

291 Political Atheist  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:56:27pm

re: #286 ludwigvanquixote

That methane gave me a feeling, (you know I’m not a scientist, or even more than mildly familiar with the hard data) that we are in fact past certain tipping points. It’s not a future date, its a done deal. Change and adapt is all we have.

292 Ericus58  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:57:49pm

re: #272 Walter L. Newton

Any Scientologist out there want to talk about this?

“They’re dead, Jim”

293 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:59:15pm

re: #282 iceweasel

OT, but—
So there’s finally an excerpt out from the new Ian McEwan novel (I looove him). It’s about AGW and features a physicist whose penis freezes and snaps off:

I’m not laughing, and now my penis is scared.

294 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 12:59:48pm

re: #160 sergeant major

This is of no consolation but North Carolina had its coldest winter in 40 years…man it was cold here.

Now, if you could just ship some of the cold to Canada…

I’ve had this fantasy for years of a sort of hyperspace swap shop. You put in stuff you have extra of, or don’t need any more, and it zips it magically to someone who needs one. Like E-bay, except no paying or shipping, and it goes everywhere.

This started when I was cranky because the building shut off my water all day without warning me. I told my mom, “You know, I feel like I shouldn’t complain. There are people who don’t have safe running water at all. But then again, I paid to have it, and it’s not like it’s being used by some lady in Sudan for the day. If it was being used by some lady in Sudan for the day, I’d be OK with it!”

295 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 1:01:21pm

re: #168 Sergeant Major

The UK had their coldest winter in 30 years and the eastern United States has had the coldest weather it’s had in 25 years…I’m not deputing climate change. I think it’s fair if we show Canada as having record warming it’s only fair that we show other countries that have record cold temperatures.

Fair? I don’t think has anything to do with fair, it’s just a matter of looking at what the climate is doing.

296 Randall Gross  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 1:03:41pm

re: #282 iceweasel

Hrmm… I’ve urinated off the top of the Northward Bldg in Fairbanks at -56 with the wind howling, and nothing froze. Seems a bit of a stretch to me, and a bizarre one at that.

(for the record — this was an experiment. The urine did not freeze in the air, but did freeze almost instantly after contacting the pavement and concrete 14 stories below. We did this experiment three times, once in dead calm, once into a windstream and once into a plastic half barrel at near room temp on the ground below. The Urine that went into the plastic barrel bottom that was shielded from the wind and warm did not freeze at all.)

The same experiment off the bridge at Hurricane Gulch at -40 got frozen urine at the bottom.

297 Racer X  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 1:04:44pm

re: #296 Thanos

Dude.

298 Randall Gross  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 1:05:45pm
299 iceweasel  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 1:06:37pm

re: #296 Thanos

Hrmm… I’ve urinated off the top of the Northward Bldg in Fairbanks at -56 with the wind howling, and nothing froze. Seems a bit of a stretch to me, and a bizarre one at that.

Oh yeah. That’s kind of McEwan’s stock in trade though. Lots of bizarre and fantastic themes in his fiction, particularly the early short stories.
Some of the Gawker comments are hilarious:

Methinks other writers could have, ahem, risen above his purple prose:

Jane Austen: It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a penis in sub-zero temperatures, must be in want of a wife.

J.D. Salinger: If you really want to hear about it, the first thing you’ll probably want to know is what I was doing in Norway, and what their lousy weather was like, and how my penis was occupied and all before it fell off, and all that global warming kind of crap, but I don’t feel like going into it, if you want to know the truth.

Annie Proulx: Michael Beard wakes before five, polar wind rocking the tent, hissing in around the door and window vents. The bi-layer shirt hanging on a carabiner shudders slightly in the draft. He gets up, scratching the purple wedge of belly and pubic hair, pulls on his micro-fiber jacket and pants, his worn boots, stamping the heels to get them full on. He shuffles outside, sees the icebergs swathed in blue. He urinates in the snow, watching as his penis shrinks smaller in his hands, and he is suffused with a sense of dismay because Jack Twist was in his dream.

300 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 1:08:06pm

re: #257 ludwigvanquixote

Ask Tom Cruise.

Scientology made a very concerted effort in the 70’s and then on to attract Hollywood types to their flock. The Hollywood types are given a sort of regal status and their little egos are flattered all the way through.

They are told what they always suspected - that they are superior beings with vast potential and powers.

It doubles as an incredible propaganda arm for them. Since many people are stupid enough to believe that celebrity opinions are somehow meaningful.

The fact is that $cientology’s numbers are growing and they have sufficient money to put out many PR campaigns to deflect unwanted questions about their less savory practices.

The only good news is that the more that Guys like Tom Cruise self destruct publicly, the more people will ask questions.

Think, in this context, also of Jenny McCarthy’s babbling about ‘Indigos’ and ‘Crystals’. The Indigo Children stuff works on a similar note, but hasn’t been formed into a cult structure in the same way. But everyone wants to believe that they are special—and that tendency can be used to make people believe some amazing other stuff.

301 Jaerik  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 1:11:27pm

One thing that’s always bugged me:

The argument against AGW seems to be that the data or positions are “inconsistent” or whatever.

What about all the deniers who smoothly pivoted from adamantly claiming “the world is not warming in any way” 5-10 years ago, to “well it’s warming, but it’s not clear that humans are causing it?” It seems like the majority of the right-wing made that change in recent years, except for the handful of crazies that still claim no glaciers are melting and there’s nothing to see here.

Why does that get a pass?

302 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 1:13:23pm

re: #284 MandyManners

What are we gonna’ do about it? It’s on sovereign territory.

True, it just represents an escalation for them.

303 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 1:14:35pm

re: #264 Racer X

I confused.

At the end of the health care summit, when everyone was giving their winding down speeches and everything seemed quite cordial, Nancy Pelosi pissed all over the floor when she reprimanded Republicans over the “lies” about abortion being included in the bill.

I do not know a whole lot about this - but can someone explain to me what the Stupak amendment is? Because it looks like an amendment specifically stating that there will be no funding for abortion.

Why do that then?

Stupak, IIRC—we’ve done several rounds now—states that no federal funding will be used for abortions, and further specifies that insurance companies who accept federally funded patients will not be permitted to include abortion in insurance packages used by those patients, even to non-federally funded persons.

In other words, if my insurance package that I get through work can also be had by someone whose Medicare pays for it, she can’t have an abortion covered by it, and neither can I.*

I don’t know what Pelosi was responding to specifically, but I have seen plenty of people on teh interwebs still insisting that somehow the bill allows federal money to be used for abortions. This is not the case, and Stupak goes well beyond just making sure that doesn’t happen.

*My insurance from work wouldn’t cover an abortion anyway, since I work for a Catholic agency. They also don’t cover my birth control. But if I was working for a secular company, Stupak would impact me in that way.

304 Randall Gross  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 1:17:39pm

re: #299 iceweasel

Well I suppose someone with a teeny tiny needle like appendage in extreme cold could freeze it by accident…. :)

305 solomonpanting  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 1:44:01pm

re: #303 SanFranciscoZionist

The last I heard was that Pelosi was looking to bypass the Stupak supporters and gather enough votes to pass the bill without those Dems.

306 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 1:46:20pm

re: #305 solomonpanting

The last I heard was that Pelosi was looking to bypass the Stupak supporters and gather enough votes to pass the bill without those Dems.

It’s a horrible amendment.

307 Pythagoras  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 1:56:59pm

re: #301 Jaerik

One thing that’s always bugged me:

The argument against AGW seems to be that the data or positions are “inconsistent” or whatever.

What about all the deniers who smoothly pivoted from adamantly claiming “the world is not warming in any way” 5-10 years ago, to “well it’s warming, but it’s not clear that humans are causing it?” It seems like the majority of the right-wing made that change in recent years, except for the handful of crazies that still claim no glaciers are melting and there’s nothing to see here.

Why does that get a pass?

Here’s the raw data. Click the 20 year record highs box, then click on redraw.

[Link: discover.itsc.uah.edu…]

308 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 2:51:33pm

re: #296 Thanos

You are my new hero.

309 Qabal  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 3:22:59pm

OT: At a recent Michelle Bachmann rally, the Star Tribune originally reported that someone yelled “Kill the bastard!” in direct reference to Obama. However, it’s now been scrubbed from the article, though it is referenced in the comments, and if you use the following google search, you’ll see it in the quote from the article even though it’s no longer in the article (about six down, not sure how long the search results will stay accurate):

[Link: www.google.com…]

While I certainly wouldn’t be surprised to hear this kind of rhetoric at a Bachmann rally, it’s kind of odd that the article was revised to remove it. It’s, of course, making the rounds at all progressive and left-leaning sites.

310 The Mongoose  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 3:27:37pm

re: #168 Sergeant Major

The UK had their coldest winter in 30 years and the eastern United States has had the coldest weather it’s had in 25 years…I’m not deputing climate change. I think it’s fair if we show Canada as having record warming it’s only fair that we show other countries that have record cold temperatures.

Agree. The warm temperatures here in Toronto are no more evidence for any kind of warming than the cold temperatures in the UK and elsewhere are real scientific evidence against it (though that won’t stop people from trying to use it as such).

Though from a selfish perspective, I could live with more winters like this one. City saved millions on snow removal and driving to hockey has never been easier in January!

311 acacia  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 4:54:52pm

Calm down folks. Just as one cold winter doesn’t disprove AGW, neither does one warm one prove it. Also, many other places had very cold winters. It shows how complicated weather and climate is. It’s no more than data. Time will tell what if anything it means.

312 Varek Raith  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 5:08:34pm

Heh, surprise, surprise…

313 freetoken  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 5:26:17pm

re: #311 acacia

The whole point is, the right wing blather-sphere has been wagging its collective tongue all winter about the “snowpocalypse” etc. It’s the disingenuousness of the right-o-sphere that is being mocked here.

314 Spare O'Lake  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 5:33:12pm

Unfortunately the fact that Dr. Phillips listed a strong el Nino first among the reasons for the unusual weather was omitted.

315 Petero1818  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 7:54:52pm

re: #28 darthstar

Whistler actually has lots of snow and had its best early season (november December) in its history. The shots of lack of snow are on the local mountains to Vancouver. Grouse, Seymour, and Cypress. These front range mountains sit atop the city of Vancouver, and you have to remember Vancouver rarely has any snow. It is not uncommon for these mountains to have bad snow and was always a questionable plan to host moguls and snowboard events there. It is a spectacular setting right above the city, but snow is always dicey there. Whistler is quite another story.

316 Ilan toren  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 10:01:24pm

A cold winter in Europe is not a disproof of global warming and a warm winter in Canada is not a proof of global warming.

317 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:10:35pm

re: #316 Ilan toren

A cold winter in Europe is not a disproof of global warming and a warm winter in Canada is not a proof of global warming.

Good thing this is far from the only evidence that global warming is occurring, isn’t it?

318 Synesius  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:27:41pm

I’m puzzled. How does this square with the winter of 2009-2010 manifesting the greatest Northern Hemisphere snow extent in a decade? (Not that it really means anything, since Northern Hemisphere snow extent has been essentially flat for 50 years, but if I were a devout Warmist I would crow gleefully about the recent modest uptick and and proclaim that it proved my point).

Seriously, on what planet does this guy dwell? Even NASA GISS shows things colder than usual. Where’d you find this fellow?

319 Gus  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:33:59pm

State of the Climate
National Overview
February 2010
National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
National Climatic Data Center

# Precipitation Highlights - February

# February precipitation, averaged across the contiguous U.S., was slightly below the long-term average, at 1.90 inches.

# Regionally, an active weather pattern in the South, Southwest, and Northeast created an above-normal precipitation for the month. The Northwest, West North Central, East North Central, and Central climate regions each had below-normal February precipitation.

# On the state level, New Mexico experienced its seventh wettest February on record. Conversely, Idaho had its seventh driest, and Wyoming its eighth driest.

# Alabama, Arkansas, and Virginia each experienced record wetness during the past six months. Ten other states during the past six-months have experienced a much-above-normal precipitation average that ranked in the top ten.

Alaska Temperature and Precipitation:

Beginning with January 2010 processing, the Alaska temperature and precipitation report is comprised of several datasets at NCDC, integrating GHCN and COOP datasets. Prior to 2010, the Alaskan temperature timeseries was processed with just GHCN data.

* Alaska had its 22nd warmest February since records began in 1918, with a temperature 5.6°F (3.1°C) above the 1971–2000 average.

* Alaska had its 19th warmest December–February on record, with a temperature 3.1°F (1.7°C) above the 1971–2000 average.

* Alaska had its 30th warmest year–to–date on record, with a temperature 2.3°F (1.3°C) above the 1971–2000 average.

* Alaska had its 17th driest February since records began in 1918, with an anomaly that was 27 percent below the 1971–2000 average.

* Alaska had its 5th driest December–February on record, with an anomaly that was 33 percent below the 1971–2000 average.

* Alaska had its 4th driest year–to–date on record, with an anomaly that was 41 percent below the 1971–2000 average.

320 Gus  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:35:34pm

State of the Climate
Global Analysis
January 2010
National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
National Climatic Data Center

* The combined global land and ocean average surface temperature for January 2010 was 0.60°C (1.08°F) above the 20th century average of 12.0°C (53.6°F). This is the fourth warmest January on record.

* The global land surface temperature for January 2010 was 0.83°C (1.49°F) above the 20th century average of 2.8°C (37.0°F)—the twelfth warmest January on record. Land areas in the Southern Hemisphere were the warmest on record for January. In the Northern Hemisphere, which has much more land, comparatively, land surface temperatures were 18th warmest on record.

* The worldwide ocean surface temperature for January 2010 was the second warmest—behind 1998—on record for January, 0.52°C (0.94°F) above the 20th century average of 15.8°C (60.5°F). This can be partially attributed to the persistence of El Niño across the equatorial Pacific Ocean. According to NOAA’s Climate Prediction Center (CPC), El Niño is expected to continue through the Northern Hemisphere spring 2010.

321 freetoken  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:40:36pm

re: #318 Synesius


Seriously, on what planet does this guy dwell? Even NASA GISS shows things colder than usual. Where’d you find this fellow?

Don’t know what NASA GISS you are looking at, but if you look at the real one:

[Link: data.giss.nasa.gov…]

you’ll find that January was a relatively warm month across the globe.

322 Synesius  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:47:36pm

re: #321 freetoken

Yeah…that’s what I mean. What graph are you looking at? (Forget the commentary; the graphs show colder than last year. Hansen likes to say things like “18th warmest” to obfuscate the issue. It’ s still colder than last year, or the year before.)

323 freetoken  Sun, Mar 14, 2010 11:52:09pm

re: #322 Synesius

Your error is in thinking “global warming” must mean a monotonic increase in surface temperature on an annual scale.

324 Synesius  Mon, Mar 15, 2010 12:04:40am

re: #323 freetoken

Thank you for providing the link to “monotonic.” I learned a new word tonight. Can’t wait to trot it out at the next party. Seriously, I enjoy new words. Thanks.

As to global warming, I believe in it. Thomas Jefferson commented on it in 1820. I question whether we have anything to do with it, or can (or should) do anything about it. My gut instinct is we don’t and shouldn’t. Earth critters do best when it’s warm.

325 freetoken  Mon, Mar 15, 2010 12:11:26am

re: #324 Synesius

As to global warming, I believe in it.

Careful… You are using “believe” in a sense that is more akin to religion or philosophy than in science.

As for attributing changes in climate to man - yes, for over a century scientists have been ever more detailed in the understanding of energy flow between the surface and outer space. A key point in this is understanding that our atmosphere is mostly a gas (with small amounts of suspended particles). Atmospheric physics is a well studied field, along with its sister atmospheric chemistry.

There is no doubt that human changes in the atmosphere has affected the “energy budget” of earth’s surface, as it is called.

At this point, as is my custom, I will direct you to the excellent Discovery of Global Warming site at the American Institute of Physics.

326 ilan toren  Mon, Mar 15, 2010 12:26:51pm

re: #317 Charles

Good thing this is far from the only evidence that global warming is occurring, isn’t it?

Good thing? Evidence is evidence. You can use it for polemics or actually try to internalize what it means.

I don’t profess expertise on all the science. I think it is a fascinating to consider on how one would go about determining whether the last two hundred years are a statistically significant deviation from the normal ebb and flow in temperature when taking into account the millions of years that have passed. Something like 5 ice ages with subsequent thaws. However I don’t need to be convinced that cutting back on the use of fossil fuels is the right policy. Even if global warming could be completely disproved ending the waste of fossil fuels would be an excellent idea. Perhaps if I wasn’t already paying about three times the cost for gas and didn’t live in a country where the oil profits finance people who want to kill me I would be more open minded about the issue. But for me global warming is simply a non-issue. If the world needs less oil because people waste less then I’m strongly in favor. That is all of the argument that I care about.

I think that you trying to read something in my comment that isn’t there though. I was pointing out that the argument you made about the cold winters in Europe is equally applicable to a warm winter in Canada. Essentially both instances are irrelevant to the issue of global warming.

327 Charles Johnson  Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:26:22pm

re: #326 ilan toren

Good thing? Evidence is evidence. You can use it for polemics or actually try to internalize what it means.

I meant: good thing if you care about facts and evidence, because there’s a whole heckuva lot of it that supports the science of AGW.


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