Hello? Anybody here?

I am. I'm just running out of stuff to say.

I feel like it's an hour earlier than it really is.

re: #3 reine.de.tout

I feel like it's an hour earlier than it really is.

Socialist Obama stole an hour from us. He plans to redistribute the sunshine.

Terribly sorry to hear about your kittie, reine.

re: #4 iceweasel

Socialist Obama stole an hour from us. He plans to redistribute the sunshine.

Terribly sorry to hear about your kittie, reine.

Thanks, Ice. *sniff*
And, hell, I should have known it was Obama's fault we lost that hour!
Heh.
But I'll take the sunshine.

This is why we need to win in Afghanistan

Everyone still fighting downstairs?

I'm on the road, visiting family, so things might be a bit slow for a few days.

Had a stroke of luck when I rented a car for the drive -- they were very busy, then they messed up my reservation and made me wait for a long time, so they actually upgraded me to the last car they had in the lot, at the price of a mid-sized car -- a Mercedes C300. Woot. Makes a long drive much more fun.

There's no owner's manual with it, though, and I've been going nuts trying to figure out how to get my iPod to work. It has an actual iPod docking cable, and I know there's supposed to be a "COMAND" mode that lets me do it, but I can't seem to find the magic keys to pop up that menu.

Oh well. I'll probably just call a Benz dealer tomorrow and ask.

Posted in spinoffs-- breaking: HCR by the weekend?

House Democrats release bill for Budget markup Monday

House Democrats on Sunday night set into motion what they hope will be the final steps on healthcare reform.

The House Budget Committee on Sunday evening released text that will serve as the base legislation for the changes the House will seek to the Senate bill this week.

Specifically, the Budget committee released a 2,309-page effort that had been previously recommended to the Education and Labor Committee and Ways and Means Committee last year.

The measure posted online does not include the substantive changes to the Senate healthcare bill that House Democrats will seek. Those changes will be offered during the markups in the Budget and Rules committees, which the budget panel hopes to begin on Monday afternoon.

The House is expected to approve the Senate's healthcare bill along with the package of changes. The Senate would then be expected to approve the package of changes under budget reconciliation rules.

Because the bill will be considered under budget reconciliation rules in the Senate, GOP senators will not be able to filibuster the package and Democrats will not need 60 votes to move the legislation through the Seante.

The House has demanded the Senate approve changes to its healthcare bill in exchange for the House voting for the Senate bill.

House Democrats hope to complete their work by this weekend, before President Barack Obama begins an overseas trip he delayed for several days to focus on healthcare.

The markup by the Budget Committee is the first step toward bringing the measure to the House floor.

Link to the legislation in there.

re: #7 Charles

Everyone still fighting downstairs?

I'm on the road, visiting family, so things might be a bit slow for a few days.

Had a stroke of luck when I rented a car for the drive -- they were very busy, then they messed up my reservation and made me wait for a long time, so they actually upgraded me to the last car they had in the lot, at the price of a mid-sized car -- a Mercedes C300. Woot. Makes a long drive much more fun.

There's no owner's manual with it, though, and I've been going nuts trying to figure out how to get my iPod to work. It has an actual iPod docking cable, and I know there's supposed to be a "COMAND" mode that lets me do it, but I can't seem to find the magic keys to pop up that menu.

Oh well. I'll probably just call a Benz dealer tomorrow and ask.

I'm here. Glad you got a nice car. Enjoy your trip, family is always important.

re: #8 iceweasel

Hopefully, enough holes can be punched in the bill to send it down. I don't want it to pass, but it won't be ruinous if it does.

KLF with Extreme Noise Terror. Here's the blurb:

Unbelievably ENT and the KLF performed this at the Brit Awards 1992, where they made national headlines by firing blanks from a machine gun at the unsuspecting audience

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

Hopefully, enough holes can be punched in the bill to send it down. I don't want it to pass, but it won't be ruinous if it does.

Not sure about that hole-punching issue at all. The GOP is effectively shut out now entirely from filibustering. Stupak et al have been sidelined. They seem to think they have enough votes to get it through.
But:

The measure posted online does not include the substantive changes to the Senate healthcare bill that House Democrats will seek.

So what are they? I don't know and we won't find out tonight, but maybe the original House bill gives a clue as to where those changes would be. Here's the chart again.

Looking at it though, I don't have any guesses as to what the House will change. i'd like it to be this: "The percent of costs paid by the insurers is higher than Obama’s proposal"-- but I seriously doubt it.

Dan Riehl had a response, I see. He calls me "Chuckie" a dozen times, because it's an incredibly crushing insult, then says he didn't even notice the traffic from LGF, which proves how insignificant I am.

He didn't see any traffic because I used a link to Google's cache.

Heh.

This is why we call him "Dim Bulb Dan."

re: #13 Charles

Wouldn't the lack of traffic from LGF actually have proved his insignificance to us?
He's a genius.

re: #13 Charles

Dan Riehl had a response, I see. He calls me "Chuckie" a dozen times, because it's an incredibly crushing insult, then says he didn't even notice the traffic from LGF, which proves how insignificant I am.

He didn't see any traffic because I used a link to Google's cache.

Heh.

This is why we call him "Dim Bulb Dan."

Not very bright at all, Dim Dan. Alan Colmes had a post about him too:

Dan Riehl Says I’ll Rot In Hell. He’s Probably Right. See You There, Dan!

If I am such an ineffectual moron, why would someone of such intellectual and satiric heft as Mr. Riehl even bother with me? And here, after I’m called “offensive” by the offender, is what he believes passes for the money shot:

Cheer up, Alan, you won’t have to indulge me forever. When you die, you’ll get to rot in Hell listening to the souls of a million babies cry and your only accomplishment will have been to drive government spending down in that area, so you can squander it somewhere else. You should feel proud, chump!

Hope you have a nice trip. The car sounds great-- I miss long road trips, actually.

You can have the last word, big guy. Take your best shot. I’m done punching down.

re: #13 Charles

Dan Riehl had a response, I see. He calls me "Chuckie" a dozen times, because it's an incredibly crushing insult, then says he didn't even notice the traffic from LGF, which proves how insignificant I am.

He didn't see any traffic because I used a link to Google's cache.

Heh.

This is why we call him "Dim Bulb Dan."

He knows very little about the net it seems. Charles just ran rings around him.

re: #15 iceweasel

Whoa, fucked up the formatting there.
This is me, not Colmes:
Hope you have a nice trip. The car sounds great-- I miss long road trips, actually.

Tavis Smiley is on Geraldo complaining President Obama doesn't have a strong enough black agenda. Yeah, that's the word they're using.

Night folks :)

Good morning.

re: #7 Charles

Everyone still fighting downstairs?

I'm on the road, visiting family, so things might be a bit slow for a few days.

Had a stroke of luck when I rented a car for the drive -- they were very busy, then they messed up my reservation and made me wait for a long time, so they actually upgraded me to the last car they had in the lot, at the price of a mid-sized car -- a Mercedes C300. Woot. Makes a long drive much more fun.

There's no owner's manual with it, though, and I've been going nuts trying to figure out how to get my iPod to work. It has an actual iPod docking cable, and I know there's supposed to be a "COMAND" mode that lets me do it, but I can't seem to find the magic keys to pop up that menu.

Oh well. I'll probably just call a Benz dealer tomorrow and ask.

Have you tried this?

[Link: blogs.insideline.com...]

re: #4 iceweasel

There's been too much sunshine here, hell, maybe I could make a donation.

Yahoo has a Time Article on

...an initiative called Give Your Vote, in which U.K. citizens will voluntarily give up their votes in the parliamentary elections expected to take place May 6 to residents in the developing world. The aim is less to tip the British elections one way or the other than to highlight the limitations of local decision-making in an increasingly interconnected world

Sounds illegal as all hell. Doesn't actually solve anything. Yeah, the average Afghani understands the climate change issues and will of course vote for what's best for the planet. This dispite the fact the issues are always framed for the citizens of the country holding the vote. The Afghanis don't/can't all vote in their own presidential elections, which might be just a little more important right now.

re: #21 Gus 802

Have you tried this?

[Link: blogs.insideline.com...]

Yes, actually, I did see that page. But I can't find a menu that looks anything like Step 2.

re: #23 Escaped Hillbilly

Yahoo has a Time Article on

Sounds illegal as all hell. Doesn't actually solve anything. Yeah, the average Afghani understands the climate change issues and will of course vote for what's best for the planet. This dispite the fact the issues are always framed for the citizens of the country holding the vote. The Afghanis don't/can't all vote in their own presidential elections, which might be just a little more important right now.

I want one of those votes, just so I can troll Britain by voting one of the Top Gear hosts as PM. q;

re: #23 Escaped Hillbilly

Yahoo has a Time Article on

Sounds illegal as all hell. Doesn't actually solve anything. Yeah, the average Afghani understands the climate change issues and will of course vote for what's best for the planet. This dispite the fact the issues are always framed for the citizens of the country holding the vote. The Afghanis don't/can't all vote in their own presidential elections, which might be just a little more important right now.

Agreed. It's a very bad idea. The proper rule seems to me to be:

Each nation holds its own elections. Other nations may at times help administer or oversee these elections, but they do not choose who runs or get a vote in them. UK elections are for Brits only. US elections are for Americans only. That is the proper way.

re: #25 laZardo

Gordon Ramsey

re: #24 Charles

Yes, actually, I did see that page. But I can't find a menu that looks anything like Step 2.

OK That's kind of strange. Might be a different year Ipod or something.

re: #26 Dark_Falcon

I couldn't tell from the article if this is an official program or something some crank cooked up. Is it sanctioned by the Brits? I wonder if they can discount those votes or something?

Hey, did everyone hear that they proved global warming to be a hoax?

I have about half a dozen emails today that say this, so it must be true.

/dripping

re: #29 Escaped Hillbilly

I couldn't tell from the article if this is an official program or something some crank cooked up. Is it sanctioned by the Brits? I wonder if they can discount those votes or something?

I hope any such votes are discounted. A scheme like that is a very bad idea.

answered my own question. Reuters says an activist group called Egality.

An Electoral Commission spokesman said that if people were not being paid for votes, there was nothing illegal in Egality campaign and said he had not heard of a similar campaign before.

Reuters

re: #30 Charles

Hey, did everyone hear that they proved global warming to be a hoax?

I have about half a dozen emails today that say this, so it must be true.

/dripping

Oh yeah, like that was sooo last ice age.

re: #27 Escaped Hillbilly

James May?

re: #30 Charles

Hey, did everyone hear that they proved global warming to be a hoax?

I have about half a dozen emails today that say this, so it must be true.

/dripping

No, but I did get a sketical arguement regarding AGW, mostly relating to carbon dioxide being heavier than Oxygen or Nitrogen. I know that argument is in error, though and the party advancing it was just trying to clarify the science in question. I'll ask Ludwig for a good way to explain it the next time he's around.

re: #24 Charles

Yes, actually, I did see that page. But I can't find a menu that looks anything like Step 2.

Hey do you have a center button on that Ipod? Says for a Classic Ipod to press and hold the center button for additional commands.

This just in from Sarah Palin, via OpenBeak, 4 minutes ago:

I facebooked"With a Stiff Spine America Must Stand Against Obamacare"& ask u to read it & act decisively for commonsense healthcare reform

re: #35 Dark_Falcon

I am a skeptic. Skepticism should not equal absolutism. A hoax? Come on. Real scientists with real evidence should not be dismissed out of hand. I look forward to the continued debate here and on the respected news sights so I can continue to form my own opinions.

re: #37 Charles

Hmmm... "stiff spine"... Excessive calcification maybe?

Brb class.

Well, I should get some rest. Work, work, work. Have fun kids!

re: #38 Escaped Hillbilly

I am a skeptic. Skepticism should not equal absolutism. A hoax? Come on. Real scientists with real evidence should not be dismissed out of hand. I look forward to the continued debate here and on the respected news sights so I can continue to form my own opinions.

That is a completely appropriate and respectful position to take. As long as people are willing to listen and learn, things tend to be alright.

re: #35 Dark_Falcon

Well, I'm no Ludwig and I certainly can't play him on the internet, but you might ask him if he knows that over the decades of using weather balloons and advanced flight that perhaps the atmosphere has been actually sampled at various heights?

re: #43 freetoken

"him" in the above answer not being Ludwig but your friend.

re: #35 Dark_Falcon

No, but I did get a sketical arguement regarding AGW, mostly relating to carbon dioxide being heavier than Oxygen or Nitrogen. I know that argument is in error, though and the party advancing it was just trying to clarify the science in question. I'll ask Ludwig for a good way to explain it the next time he's around.

Well, see, the thing is, among the world's scientists there's very little doubt about the role CO2 is playing in the warming of the earth's atmosphere, or about the fact that humans are generating CO2 in absolutely unprecedented amounts and have been for many decades.

Those are two of the most important basic facts that scientists know about AGW. These facts are so well-known and well-supported by evidence that you really should assume that anyone trying to tell you otherwise is not being honest with you. Or with themselves. Or both.

re: #45 Charles

Well, see, the thing is, among the world's scientists there's very little doubt about the role CO2 is playing in the warming of the earth's atmosphere, or about the fact that humans are generating CO2 in absolutely unprecedented amounts and have been for many decades.

Those are two of the most important basic facts that scientists know about AGW. These facts are so well-known and well-supported by evidence that you really should assume that anyone trying to tell you otherwise is not being honest with you. Or with themselves. Or both.

He's not being dishonest, since this person never lies to me. However, i think he may not really understand how AGW works. I'm going to take a little time to inform myself, then inform him. If I bring him the facts, he'll listen.

Andy McCarthy, head nither at NRO, is going Full Metal McCarthy Wingnut and pushing the Liz Cheney meme about seekrit terrorists in the DOJ:

Column titled: Is the Gitmo Bar Pro-Islamist? (no link)

Never mind that this betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the US justice system. Loads of conservative lawyers have come out against these McCarthy (heh) tactics. Stephen Jones, Republican and McVeigh's defense lawyer, has an OpEd in the WSJ about all this-- but there are many others as well. Excerpt:

Neither logic nor experience nor history demonstrates that the points being made by Ms. Cheney and her allies have any merit. They represent forensic vigilantism, a political lynch-mob mentality.
The day when scare mongers can intimidate lawyers into not doing their jobs is a day in which liberty is threatened. The justice of a society is measured not by how it treats its best, but how it treats its worst.

All lawyers should stand firm and reject the unwarranted insinuation that the Department of Justice lawyers are unpatriotic allies of terrorists, or that their past cases will shade their responsibilities in their current positions. The same goes for Republicans such as myself who value the traditions of our party and who remember that the first elected Republican president himself, Abraham Lincoln, defended unpopular causes and clients, even those accused of murder.

re: #36 Gus 802

Hey do you have a center button on that Ipod? Says for a Classic Ipod to press and hold the center button for additional commands.

Oops. Was looking for the Ipod command. Found this for the C300:

1. Press the Disc button on the dash to select the CD player
2. Move the selection wheel towards the back of the car to engage the menu mode
3. Turn the wheel anti-clockwise until the leftmost menu option (CD or MP3 depending upon software variant) is highlighted
4. Press the controller knob to select the menu
5. Scroll down to the line with "Aux" on it
6. Press the controller knob to select Aux mode

re: #47 iceweasel

Andy McCarthy, head nither at NRO, is going Full Metal McCarthy Wingnut and pushing the Liz Cheney meme about seekrit terrorists in the DOJ:

Column titled: Is the Gitmo Bar Pro-Islamist? (no link)

Never mind that this betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the US justice system. Loads of conservative lawyers have come out against these McCarthy (heh) tactics. Stephen Jones, Republican and McVeigh's defense lawyer, has an OpEd in the WSJ about all this-- but there are many others as well. Excerpt:

I read McCarthy' article. And it was left to Jonah Goldberg (whom I know you do not like) to try to split the difference. He does have cardinal point that is how conservatives should think about Holder's DOJ:

That said, there is one point where Jones scores a glancing blow. If you watch the Keep America Safe ad there is the insinuation — or at least reasonable people can infer it — that KAS is suggesting the "al Qaeda 7" are pro-al Qaeda. If that's the insinuation some are trying to make, I think that's counter-productive. I don't think these lawyers are traitorous or anything like that (which is not to say that it's impossible). I think they subscribe to a coherent ideological view about the war on terror and priesthood of the lawyer class. I think that view is dangerous, wrong and naive, but it ain't treason.

Full article is here.

re: #47 iceweasel

Andy McCarthy, head nither at NRO, is going Full Metal McCarthy Wingnut and pushing the Liz Cheney meme about seekrit terrorists in the DOJ:

Column titled: Is the Gitmo Bar Pro-Islamist? (no link)

Never mind that this betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of the US justice system. Loads of conservative lawyers have come out against these McCarthy (heh) tactics. Stephen Jones, Republican and McVeigh's defense lawyer, has an OpEd in the WSJ about all this-- but there are many others as well. Excerpt:

They should realize that even under a military tribunal that defendants are entitled to a defense. Another thing to keep in mind is that just because they are being held at Gitmo we don't know with 100 percent certainty that they are guilty and that the axiom innocent until proven guilty still applies for alleged enemy combatants.

Dovetailing on that I am reminded of Miranda Rights. Perhaps not as it applies here but how it applied to American citizens and how the far right reacted to its appearance in law enforcement many years ago. Well, simply put, Miranda Rights are a good thing since it prevented many people from being railroaded by aggressive and not so innocent police departments and prosecutors. They are not all always as pure as we would like to think.

You have the right to remain silent and refuse to answer questions.

Anything you do say may be used against you in a court of law.

You have the right to consult an attorney before speaking to the police and to have an attorney present during questioning now or in the future.

If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you before any questioning if you wish.

If you decide to answer questions now without an attorney present you will still have the right to stop answering at any time until you talk to an attorney.

Knowing and understanding your rights as I have explained them to you, are you willing to answer my questions without an attorney present?

Very reasonable but again it has been opposed and mocked by the far right who seem to think that law enforcement is a judicial body. They also seem to live by a Hollywood fantasy that they can be coerced under force into a confession which surprisingly is not dissimilar to shall we say, "enhanced interrogation techniques."

re: #50 Gus 802

They also seem to live by a Hollywood fantasy that they can be coerced under force into a confession which surprisingly is not dissimilar to shall we say, "enhanced interrogation techniques."

Yep. They think 24 is a documentary, apparently.

re: #50 Gus 802

Very reasonable but again it has been opposed and mocked by the far right who seem to think that law enforcement is a judicial body. They also seem to live by a Hollywood fantasy that they can be coerced under force into a confession which surprisingly is not dissimilar to shall we say, "enhanced interrogation techniques."

It's the whole "24" syndrome. There was an excellent article in the Atlantic in 2003 on this: Mark Bowden, the Dark Art of Interrogation.

Torture fetishists always point to a 24 hour/ticking time bomb scenario. That's always been the strongest philosophical argument for torture-- and it isn't very strong. The whole article is excellent, but this is the relevant bit in this context:

Religious extremists are the hardest cases. They ponder in their own private space, performing a kind of self-hypnosis. They are usually well educated. Their lives are financially and emotionally tidy. They tend to live in an ascetic manner, and to look down on nonbelievers. They tend to be physically and mentally strong, and not to be influenced by material things—by either the incentives or the disincentives available in prison. Often the rightness of their cause trumps all else, so they can commit any outrage—lie, cheat, steal, betray, kill—without remorse. Yet under sufficient duress, Koubi says, most men of even this kind will eventually break—most, but not all. Some cannot be broken.

"They are very rare," he says, "but in some cases the more aggressive you get, and the worse things get, the more these men will withdraw into their own world, until you cannot reach them."

In the worst case scenario that the pro-torture folks ask us to imagine, we'd be dealing with exactly the kind of person who won't break.
Your points about Miranda are also spot on. Similar arguments, and yet it hasn't inhibited our police.
BTW, sent you a tweet. :)

re: #51 Lidane

Yep. They think 24 is a documentary, apparently.

Rambo was their instructional video.

It's getting close to 2AM where I am, so I'm going to turn in. Goodnight, all.

re: #52 iceweasel

In the worst case scenario that the pro-torture folks ask us to imagine, we'd be dealing with exactly the kind of person who won't break.
Your points about Miranda are also spot on. Similar arguments, and yet it hasn't inhibited our police.
BTW, sent you a tweet. :)

They tend to oversimplify things and always see brute strength as the answer. Everything is done over the top. Or like you say it is this 24 fantasy playing into their imagined machismo.

As you can see it's going beyond waterboarding. It seems as though many people believe that these people should even face a trial. Like I said you get representation in a military trial. Would they be calling any JAG defense lawyer the Jihadi 7? I doubt it.

Checking Tweet...

re: #54 Dark_Falcon

It's getting close to 2AM where I am, so I'm going to turn in. Goodnight, all.

Later DF!

re: #54 Dark_Falcon

It's getting close to 2AM where I am, so I'm going to turn in. Goodnight, all.

Later, DF! Good luck with everything.
BRB myself.

Sleep beckons as well. G'night all!

Oh, and have a safe trip, Charles!

re: #55 Gus 802

They tend to oversimplify things and always see brute strength as the answer. Everything is done over the top. Or like you say it is this 24 fantasy playing into their imagined machismo.

As you can see it's going beyond waterboarding. It seems as though many people believe that these people should even face a trial. Like I said you get representation in a military trial. Would they be calling any JAG defense lawyer the Jihadi 7? I doubt it.

Checking Tweet...

Let me clarify. That is they believe they should face a trial but without legal representation.

I.e. a Kangaroo court or a drumhead court martial.

re: #59 Gus 802

Let me clarify. That is they believe they should face a trial but without legal representation.

I.e. a Kangaroo court or a drumhead court martial.

Let's face it. They want a show trial and an execution.
The freakout over a criminal trial for KSM is most instructive. They didn't have any problems when terrorists were convicted in criminal trials under Bush, or when the Bush admin endorsed the use of criminal trials, as did Rudy.
You'd think we never had a criminal trial for any terrorist before-- when in fact that's almost always been the case.
Of course, everything is different now. Because it's Obama.
Also, pitooey on Obama for even entertaining the notion of rescinding that for KSM.

re: #60 iceweasel

The lust for blood can be easily manipulated by the devious politician.

re: #60 iceweasel

Let's face it. They want a show trial and an execution.
The freakout over a criminal trial for KSM is most instructive. They didn't have any problems when terrorists were convicted in criminal trials under Bush, or when the Bush admin endorsed the use of criminal trials, as did Rudy.
You'd think we never had a criminal trial for any terrorist before-- when in fact that's almost always been the case.
Of course, everything is different now. Because it's Obama.
Also, pitooey on Obama for even entertaining the notion of rescinding that for KSM.

Bottom line is that most of the unhinged reactions is because Obama is involved. As we noticed in a certain (cough, cough) thread a couple down. It doesn't even have to be a real act on the part of Obama. It can even be a simple one letter word like "I." Funny how in that same thread it was matter of continued policy one that was practiced by Bush II and those before him. I wonder how long before they extend that logic to saying something like "those that oppose military trials are treasonous!" I'm sure they already do. Yep, rule of law and courts. That's downright un-American. Uh huh.

re: #61 freetoken

The lust for blood can be easily manipulated by the devious politician.

Sure can. Has always been so. The three weapons are fear and surprise.

re: #62 Gus 802

Bottom line is that most of the unhinged reactions is because Obama is involved. As we noticed in a certain (cough, cough) thread a couple down. It doesn't even have to be a real act on the part of Obama. It can even be a simple one letter word like "I." Funny how in that same thread it was matter of continued policy one that was practiced by Bush II and those before him. I wonder how long before they extend that logic to saying something like "those that oppose military trials are treasonous!" I'm sure they already do. Yep, rule of law and courts. That's downright un-American. Uh huh.

Yep. Already happening. Shit, most of the wingnut bloggers and pundits that pretend criminal trials are oh-so-dangerous come out and say something like Obama is making us less safe and many of them claim he's deliberately trying to 'make us less safe'. It's a common notion among the wingnuts that a criminal trial for KSM is intended to wind up with KSM being found not guilty. Which is never, ever, going to happen.

But they say it. Some truly believe it.

re: #63 iceweasel

Sure can. Has always been so. The three weapons are fear and surprise.

KSM could have been convicted by now. Even if he got life that would have worked. Don't have to kill everybody using capital punishment all the time. Besides, that does feed into a death cult mentality. I'm sure with life he would want to be dead anyway.

re: #64 iceweasel

Yep. Already happening. Shit, most of the wingnut bloggers and pundits that pretend criminal trials are oh-so-dangerous come out and say something like Obama is making us less safe and many of them claim he's deliberately trying to 'make us less safe'. It's a common notion among the wingnuts that a criminal trial for KSM is intended to wind up with KSM being found not guilty. Which is never, ever, going to happen.

But they say it. Some truly believe it.

Winguts are the biggest sycophants in the world. They follow their little playbook very well. The main parts of that playbook now are memes, fear and Obama derangement/hatred. They seem to be ignoring what's going on in Afghanistan -- which was ignored for a very long time. There have been a few minor events such as Major Hassan but other than that it's been safe. Save a few crazies but that's typical Americana crazy shooters.

Obama and Holder need to stop dancing around with this and make a decision now. Delaying this only adds fuel to the wingnut engine. Change the trial to somewhere quiet in Virginia and get it over with.

re: #65 Gus 802

KSM could have been convicted by now. Even if he got life that would have worked. Don't have to kill everybody using capital punishment all the time. Besides, that does feed into a death cult mentality. I'm sure with life he would want to be dead anyway.

This is the thing that I suspect many don't get-- these people want to be martyrs. That doesn't always mean a suicide bombing.

Torture them, have a military trial, kill them-- all that makes them objects of veneration. It feeds into their narrative about the US persecuting them.
DF would probably know this, and I can find the links, but the two most successful interrogators in wwII on both the allied and german side didn't torture.

re: #67 iceweasel

This is the thing that I suspect many don't get-- these people want to be martyrs. That doesn't always mean a suicide bombing.

Torture them, have a military trial, kill them-- all that makes them objects of veneration. It feeds into their narrative about the US persecuting them.
DF would probably know this, and I can find the links, but the two most successful interrogators in wwII on both the allied and german side didn't torture.

The other thing is that none of this works as a deterrent. The Jihadis know it's revenge whether it's a military or civilian trial. They're not going to stop in their tracks next time they plan a bombing to think "damn, what if we get a military trial?"

re: #67 iceweasel

This is the thing that I suspect many don't get-- these people want to be martyrs. That doesn't always mean a suicide bombing.

Torture them, have a military trial, kill them-- all that makes them objects of veneration. It feeds into their narrative about the US persecuting them.
DF would probably know this, and I can find the links, but the two most successful interrogators in wwII on both the allied and german side didn't torture.

George Frenkel and Henry Kolm.

Fort Hunt's Quiet Men Break Silence on WWII

The group of World War II veterans kept a military code and the decorum of their generation, telling virtually no one of their top-secret work interrogating Nazi prisoners of war at Fort Hunt.

When about two dozen veterans got together yesterday for the first time since the 1940s, many of the proud men lamented the chasm between the way they conducted interrogations during the war and the harsh measures used today in questioning terrorism suspects.

Back then, they and their commanders wrestled with the morality of bugging prisoners' cells with listening devices. They felt bad about censoring letters. They took prisoners out for steak dinners to soften them up. They played games with them.

"We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture," said Henry Kolm, 90, an MIT physicist who had been assigned to play chess in Germany with Hitler's deputy, Rudolf Hess.

re: #66 Gus 802

Obama and Holder need to stop dancing around with this and make a decision now. Delaying this only adds fuel to the wingnut engine. Change the trial to somewhere quiet in Virginia and get it over with.

They could also have moved it to other places in NYS. Now it's a political football. Frankly it's a massive fuckup by Obama and Holder to even pretend to be reconsidering the criminal trial decision. There is literally no reason to do that other than pandering to wingnuts,

Then again, it's not like the Obama admin, or Obama, or his DOJ are stellar civil liberties people. Obama is endorsing a three teier system for trials: criminal trials when we can, military tribunals for those defendants where we can't meet the bar for evidence required for conviction in a criminal court, and indefinite holding without trial or counsel in other cases. Closing Gitmo is bullshit and PR-- even if we do close it, we're moving people to Bagram.

I haven't seen a genuinely good argument for moving the KSM trial either.

re: #69 Gus 802

That's EXACTLY the article I was thinking of! Thanks!

re: #67 iceweasel

This is the thing that I suspect many don't get-- these people want to be martyrs. That doesn't always mean a suicide bombing.

Torture them, have a military trial, kill them-- all that makes them objects of veneration. It feeds into their narrative about the US persecuting them.
DF would probably know this, and I can find the links, but the two most successful interrogators in wwII on both the allied and german side didn't torture.

I was once having a conversation with someone who believed that jihadi activity would stop if we tried and publicly executed some al-Qaeda types in New York City. (This was before wanting to try al-Qaeda types in New York was treasonous, obviously.)

I said "Dude," (his name was Dude), "Dude, we're talking about people who fly planes into buildings on purpose while they're on the planes. You really think a couple of hangings will scare off people who can be talked into doing that?"

And he, bless him, said, "You know, you might have a point there."

We cannot gain favor by showing mercy, or inspire fear by punishing harshly, so we may as well just give the guy a fair trial and then stick him in Supermax for all eternity, which I think is the most appropriate thing to do anyway. The important thing with KSM is that he's out of circulation and incommunicado.

re: #71 iceweasel

That's EXACTLY the article I was thinking of! Thanks!

YW

Now you can say, "see, even the Greatest Generation opposed water boarding."

Outrage ensues.

re: #69 Gus 802

See? Another Democratic administration. Those guys are soft on terror, always have been.

//

re: #72 SanFranciscoZionist

I was once having a conversation with someone who believed that jihadi activity would stop if we tried and publicly executed some al-Qaeda types in New York City. (This was before wanting to try al-Qaeda types in New York was treasonous, obviously.)

I said "Dude," (his name was Dude), "Dude, we're talking about people who fly planes into buildings on purpose while they're on the planes. You really think a couple of hangings will scare off people who can be talked into doing that?"

And he, bless him, said, "You know, you might have a point there."

We cannot gain favor by showing mercy, or inspire fear by punishing harshly, so we may as well just give the guy a fair trial and then stick him in Supermax for all eternity, which I think is the most appropriate thing to do anyway. The important thing with KSM is that he's out of circulation and incommunicado.

It would be good to remind someone like that about how public hanging in Iran are common. The idea that public hangings of Jihadis would act as a deterrent is absurd. It would probably lead to other problems in this country as result of the shock of such events.

I'm going to sleep. Good night all.

re: #76 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm going to sleep. Good night all.

Later SFZ!

re: #72 SanFranciscoZionist

I was once having a conversation with someone who believed that jihadi activity would stop if we tried and publicly executed some al-Qaeda types in New York City. (This was before wanting to try al-Qaeda types in New York was treasonous, obviously.)

I said "Dude," (his name was Dude), "Dude, we're talking about people who fly planes into buildings on purpose while they're on the planes. You really think a couple of hangings will scare off people who can be talked into doing that?"

And he, bless him, said, "You know, you might have a point there."

We cannot gain favor by showing mercy, or inspire fear by punishing harshly, so we may as well just give the guy a fair trial and then stick him in Supermax for all eternity, which I think is the most appropriate thing to do anyway. The important thing with KSM is that he's out of circulation and incommunicado.

Traditional Irish:
May those who love us, love us;
and those who don't love us,
may God turn their hearts;
and if He doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
so we'll know them by their limping.

We won't get people who hate us (and some certainly do, and always will) to love us simply by showing mercy. On this the wingnuts are right.

But that isn't the point of showing mercy or being just. One doesn't do that in expectation of getting something back from that person-- one does it because it's the right thing to do.

Giving up our values is defeat. A defeat no one can win over us, but one we perform on ourselves.
Not worth it.

re: #78 iceweasel

Traditional Irish:
May those who love us, love us;
and those who don't love us,
may God turn their hearts;
and if He doesn't turn their hearts,
may he turn their ankles
so we'll know them by their limping.

We won't get people who hate us (and some certainly do, and always will) to love us simply by showing mercy. On this the wingnuts are right.

But that isn't the point of showing mercy or being just. One doesn't do that in expectation of getting something back from that person-- one does it because it's the right thing to do.

Giving up our values is defeat. A defeat no one can win over us, but one we perform on ourselves.
Not worth it.

Give them a fair trial but in the end show no mercy so to speak. KSM is a special case. He doesn't represent all detainees. While we show no mercy in the end and have trial it's important to realize that there will be others. It's like when they take out a Taliban commander one day, he's replaced the next day. Every day, Jihadis are born and eventually trained. I think it's also important to note one thing. This isn't about religion. It's political.

re: #79 Gus 802

By no mercy I meant regarding sentencing. That is one doesn't give someone like KSM the option of parole 20 years up the road.

re: #80 Gus 802

By no mercy I meant regarding sentencing. That is one doesn't give someone like KSM the option of parole 20 years up the road.

Oh yeah. Totally agree. With this and your post above it.
KSM is never, ever, going to get out of prison. Never.
He might wind up with death. Very possible. Even if not, he's never getting out.
And when you look at the three-tiered system the Obama admin has set up for all terrorists, you know that the only reason a criminal trial was even on the table (as I hope it still is) for KSM is that they are so incredibly confident in the evidence against him and the criminal trial system.

re: #81 iceweasel

Oh yeah. Totally agree. With this and your post above it.
KSM is never, ever, going to get out of prison. Never.
He might wind up with death. Very possible. Even if not, he's never getting out.
And when you look at the three-tiered system the Obama admin has set up for all terrorists, you know that the only reason a criminal trial was even on the table (as I hope it still is) for KSM is that they are so incredibly confident in the evidence against him and the criminal trial system.

Florence, ADX. Of course Holder said directly he would seek the death penalty. Otherwise ADX is a mattress on a concrete deck, a shower (which I think is on a timer), and a toilet/sink. Plus about 1/2 hour recreation time. I think later they can get a black and white TV that plays the prison cable programs. Everything is checked and he "stays in his room" for the rest of his life.

Kind of weird if you think about it happening to yourself.

re: #82 Gus 802

Florence, ADX. Of course Holder said directly he would seek the death penalty. Otherwise ADX is a mattress on a concrete deck, a shower (which I think is on a timer), and a toilet/sink. Plus about 1/2 hour recreation time. I think later they can get a black and white TV that plays the prison cable programs. Everything is checked and he "stays in his room" for the rest of his life.

Kind of weird if you think about it happening to yourself.

Many people who wind up in SuperMax would rather be dead.
I truly think the best punishment for jihadis is to deny them the martyr status they crave. I wish them a long, long life in isolation in a SuperMax.

re: #83 iceweasel

Many people who wind up in SuperMax would rather be dead.
I truly think the best punishment for jihadis is to deny them the martyr status they crave. I wish them a long, long life in isolation in a SuperMax.

Exactly. Picture KSM in 20 years watching his tiny black and white. On TV is an evangelist preacher for the evening.

re: #84 Gus 802

Exactly. Picture KSM in 20 years watching his tiny black and white. On TV is an evangelist preacher for the evening.

Heh. Sounds like that bit in Silence of the Lambs. PTL club or something?

re: #85 iceweasel

Heh. Sounds like that bit in Silence of the Lambs. PTL club or something?

Yeah, something like PTL club. Fire and brimstone with speaking in tongues. Then followed by an interview with a famous evangelist actor. KSM just sitting there in the dark.

re: #86 Gus 802

Yeah, something like PTL club. Fire and brimstone with speaking in tongues. Then followed by an interview with a famous evangelist actor. KSM just sitting there in the dark.

And/or some Creflo Dollar prosperity gospel late night shit, interspersed with the Home Shopping Network. Even insomniac Americans wish for the sweet release of death after being exposed to too much of late nite infotainment.

re: #87 iceweasel

And/or some Creflo Dollar prosperity gospel late night shit, interspersed with the Home Shopping Network. Even insomniac Americans wish for the sweet release of death after being exposed to too much of late nite infotainment.

Serenity now! I think too much of that television causes an early death anyway. It's amazing how some people are so addicted to TV that they'll just about watch anything.

re: #88 Gus 802

Serenity now! I think too much of that television causes an early death anyway. It's amazing how some people are so addicted to TV that they'll just about watch anything.

One of the reasons I got rid of mine. I once lived with someone who just needed the teevee on all the time.
Not cool.

re: #89 iceweasel

One of the reasons I got rid of mine. I once lived with someone who just needed the teevee on all the time.
Not cool.

Well-- not ALL the time, lol... but generally speaking. Freaky.

re: #89 iceweasel

One of the reasons I got rid of mine. I once lived with someone who just needed the teevee on all the time.
Not cool.

Same here. Got tired of watching junk. Reality shows, dumb stuff like building a giant grocery cart, those weird chop shop shows. Then everyone on cable reminded me of some WWF wrestler. Even the documentaries had a lot of suckage. Cable isn't worth it for watching two or three shows a week. Plus the commercials.

re: #89 iceweasel

Once had a female friend, a wonderful woman in some ways, just a friend but someone in whom at times I had more interest, and I think it was reciprocal. Anyway, one day I was over at her apartment and she had the TV on - she was addicted to soaps. She wanted to talk to me, but she refused to turn the TV off. That told me lots, really.

re: #91 Gus 802

Anything good created for TV is downloadable now anyway.

re: #90 iceweasel

Well-- not ALL the time, lol... but generally speaking. Freaky.

I've known people like that. You call them up and you can hear a TV in the background all-the-time. Then you visit them they're always telling you to "be quiet" when they're watching their favorite show. Of course with people like that their favorite show is every show that happens to be on that night. So you just sit there like a vegetable thinking "why am I friends with this idiot?"

re: #92 freetoken

Once had a female friend, a wonderful woman in some ways, just a friend but someone in whom at times I had more interest, and I think it was reciprocal. Anyway, one day I was over at her apartment and she had the TV on - she was addicted to soaps. She wanted to talk to me, but she refused to turn the TV off. That told me lots, really.

Yep. Their television become more important than human interaction. Even with supposed friends.

re: #93 freetoken

Anything good created for TV is downloadable now anyway.

Or on the networks sites. I like a few goofy shows that I try to keep up with: The Office, House, NCIS. I say goofy because it's still television but they're enjoyable. They also only have one commercial between breaks.

re: #92 freetoken

Once had a female friend, a wonderful woman in some ways, just a friend but someone in whom at times I had more interest, and I think it was reciprocal. Anyway, one day I was over at her apartment and she had the TV on - she was addicted to soaps. She wanted to talk to me, but she refused to turn the TV off. That told me lots, really.

Jimmah asked me cautiously at some point early on about soaps. I gather that this is a huge thing for some of the women in Scotland. People watching several Tivo'd episodes every night.

He was vastly relieved to discover I watch none-- on my part, I was happy to discover he doesn't have a gaming habit.

I love some TV-- mostly series on DVD, or science UK stuff. Apart from that-- shoot your TV. Download everything.

Steely Dan has always been a personal favorite. As recently as this past Saturday evening, when wifey and me went on the porch for a wine and butt break, I plugged my blackberry into the speakers and cued up "Deacon Blues." I dare you to NOT sing that song when it comes on!

Saw Messrs Fagen & Becker a couple years ago with Jon Herington on guitar. Brilliant.

Finally a shout out in the comments to the amazing Becker/Fagen and company. Amazing layers of sound in this cut.

Love Steely Dan, but I'll be damned if I can understand much of their lyrics. This one in particular.

re: #101 Red Lion

Love Steely Dan, but I'll be damned if I can understand much of their lyrics. This one in particular.

Quite concur, even though I've seen the movie, heard the song, read the lyrics.