Pew Research: Outlook Grim for Pay Walls

MediaMarch 2010 • Views: 3,066

As mainstream news organizations increasingly find it difficult to turn a profit in the Internet Age, Pew Research has been studying the attitudes of news consumers toward some of the proposed solutions; and the prospects are pretty grim for news organizations to convince consumers to pay for something that they now get for free: Online economics and consumer attitudes.

The biggest question facing online journalism today is how to pay for it. With revenue declining both online and in legacy platforms news organizations say they are intensifying the search for new models. What kind of new advertising options are out there? How will users respond? And would consumers in the marketplace accept pay walls?

To learn more, PEJ and the Pew Research Center’s Internet & American Life Project collaborated on a national phone survey in January 2010 to explore consumers’ willingness to pay for news online and their attitudes and behavior in response to online advertising.

Over all, the evidence suggests the outlook is difficult both for paywalls and for online display advertising. While most people have not been asked to pay for content, even among the most avid news consumers online, only about one in five at this point say they would be willing to pay, and this does not include less voracious news consumers. At the same time, the vast majority of those online, 8 out of 10, say they basically ignore online ads.

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109 comments

Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:49:21am

Sometimes I think that there needs to be some sort of Common Sense Consulting, Inc., out there for companies that just can’t buy a clue about how the Internet works and how its users work. Information just doesn’t flow the same way it used to, and there are too many companies out there that Just Don’t Get It (tm).

Joo-LiZ Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:50:06am

Anybody think we might see more and more journalists taking the Michael Totten/Michael Yon approach?

“This is my work, if you like it, please donate!”

_RememberTonyC Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:51:36am

Internet content is like sex …. once you get it for free, you don’t want to pay …

at least that’s what I have heard :)

prairiefire Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:52:03am

News organizations are not going to be able to make the Internet make up for their decreasing revenue by making readers pay on line. Ad revenue on line seems to be the only source for funds.

Joo-LiZ Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:52:40am

re: #3 _RememberTonyC

Internet content is like sex … once you get it for free, you don’t want to pay …

at least that’s what I have heard :)

You mean you still pay??

//sarc (JUST in case you couldn’t tell =P)

Jadespring Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:53:39am

I wonder if they asked about people ignoring ads in a regular newspaper as well. I’m pretty much an equal opportunity ignorer whether it’s digital or ink print.

comradebillyboy Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:53:44am

Perhaps a more fundamental problem for the traditional news outlets is the rapidly declining quality of news journalism. The quality of analysis, fact checking and content are such that the National Enquirer now does better investigative reporting than the NY Time or Washington Post.

Randall Gross Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:54:03am

At the same time, the vast majority of those online, 8 out of 10, say they basically ignore online ads.

What’s their point? We largely ignore print magazine and TV ads too, that sure didn’t stop people from buying time during superbowl.

It’s the quality and demand for the content that drives the market, over time the cream of the web will float to the top, and the also rans will fall out.

The only cases I can see subscriptions or pay style things working is for premium content or abilities at web sites. E.G. maybe you don’t get to comment if you aren’t a sub. Maybe there’s live author forums where audience participates but only if you are a premium member.

Pay walls are the long time suck, and will kill sites over time.

_RememberTonyC Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:54:59am

re: #5 Joo-LiZ

You mean you still pay??

//sarc (JUST in case you couldn’t tell =P)

I’ve never used a hooker ….. but we ALL “pay” for sex!

Kragar Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:55:24am

Well, if you can’t beat ‘em, tax ‘em.

Google news tax could boost local papers, report says

Google and other websites that carry news they do not produce should be taxed and the money generated used to prop up local newspapers, says a report which warns control of the media is concentrated in too few hands.

The Commission of Inquiry into the Future of Civil Society, headed by Tony Blair’s former head of policy, Geoff Mulgan, will warn next week that news is becoming “recycled ‘churnalism’ and aggregated content”. In a report, Making Good Society, the commission says a future government must preserve freedom on the internet, ensure the media is not controlled by powerful interests, and promote accuracy.

Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:55:25am

re: #4 prairiefire

News organizations are not going to be able to make the Internet make up for their decreasing revenue by making readers pay on line. Ad revenue on line seems to be the only source for funds.

There’s other ways to make money, other than ads. The trick is to offer something that is both unique and attractive to customers. A well-indexed, searchable database of historical archives is a common point of subscriber funds. Others might include certain types of streaming news (mobile phone alerts or an iPhone app, perhaps). Get creative.

Obdicut Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:56:20am

re: #8 Thanos

I can honestly say that internet ads have driven more of my purchases than TV ads have, especially since I don’t have a TV.

Kragar Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:56:25am

re: #3 _RememberTonyC

Internet content is like sex … once you get it for free, you don’t want to pay …

at least that’s what I have heard :)

The internet: Come for the cute cat pictures, stay for the hardcore pornography.

Cato the Elder Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:56:41am

re: #2 Joo-LiZ

Anybody think we might see more and more journalists taking the Michael Totten/Michael Yon approach?

“This is my work, if you like it, please donate!”

Tough row to hoe. I like their work, but I’m out of work in part because of the internet and people not caring a fart about well-edited texts or actual human-made translations anymore. Texts are throwaways now and nobody cares if the grammar is right. And machine translation - as ass-backwards as it usually is - seems to be enough for many people to get the “gist” of what they think they’re reading.

So though I like Totten and Yon, I’ll donate when I have a real job again. Hope they’re not counting on me.

_RememberTonyC Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:57:02am

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The internet: Come for the cute cat pictures, stay for the hardcore pornography.

on THIS site, I have seen those two combined!

Vicious Babushka Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:58:00am

I know people who pay for the New York Times, just to get the crossword puzzle.

Kragar Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:58:03am

re: #6 Jadespring

I wonder if they asked about people ignoring ads in a regular newspaper as well. I’m pretty much an equal opportunity ignorer whether it’s digital or ink print.

At least with print ads, you don’t have to worry about annoying pop ups or risking your PC getting infected with spyware. I ignore internet ads because I just don’t trust the vast majority of them.

Obdicut Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:58:09am

re: #14 Cato the Elder

I hate anyone who relies on machine translation. SAP does it sometimes, the assholes.

Jeff In Ohio Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:58:19am

“the prospects are pretty grim for news organizations to convince consumers to pay for something that they now get for free”

Yes, welcome to the world musicians have been inhabiting since Napster. Once you make it ‘free’ (or elected not to prosecute people who steal), it’s kind of hard to get someone to pay for it. But let’s take the pirate apologist approach and suggest that if they just let them have some free content, they’ll see how great it is and gladly pay for something more.

Not. Fail.

Now, I personally can see an out for online news sources and that’s iPad/iTunes style solution where instead of buying singles, your buying dailies.

Randall Gross Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:58:28am

People forget that the internet is still crude, rude, and in it’s infancy. There’s still stinky poop in diapers and it will be that way at least a couple more decades…

Kragar Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:58:42am

re: #15 _RememberTonyC

on THIS site, I have seen those two combined!

I can haz eastern european lezbianz?

Vicious Babushka Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:59:01am

I am dawdling here because I don’t want to go out and buy a case of fish and 2 cases of chicken.

prairiefire Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:59:03am

re: #11 thedopefishlives

My local newspaper’s online archives are teh suck. They don’t update or cross reference them. I’ve wondered if that is because of ineptitude, or it’s on purpose. I suspect it’s because they don’t have the funds to pay someone to do it.

Oh no...Sand People! Mon, Mar 15, 2010 9:59:47am

re: #10 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Well, if you can’t beat ‘em, tax ‘em.

Google news tax could boost local papers, report says

That would quickly suppress the rapid distribution of information, yet I can see an argument being, ‘we were the ones who had to pay the journalists to get the story in the first place’ type of thing.

Kragar Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:00:07am

re: #8 Thanos

What’s their point? We largely ignore print magazine and TV ads too, that sure didn’t stop people from buying time during superbowl.

It’s the quality and demand for the content that drives the market, over time the cream of the web will float to the top, and the also rans will fall out.

The only cases I can see subscriptions or pay style things working is for premium content or abilities at web sites. E.G. maybe you don’t get to comment if you aren’t a sub. Maybe there’s live author forums where audience participates but only if you are a premium member.

Pay walls are the long time suck, and will kill sites over time.

Some news service out of New York tries it, spent big bucks to revamp their whole site and ended up with maybe a dozen paying customers. Epic Fail.

Oh no...Sand People! Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:00:28am

re: #16 Alouette

I know people who pay for the New York Times, just to get the crossword puzzle.

Since that is their most intellectually complex achievement.

Jeff In Ohio Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:00:46am

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The internet: Come for the cute cat pictures, stay for the hardcore pornography.

There are cute cat pictures, too?

RogueOne Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:00:48am

re: #14 Cato the Elder

Have you ever thought about moving overseas and teaching?

Vicious Babushka Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:00:57am

Gosh, how much wine will I need this year? 7 adults + 4 children. 1 bottle per adult per seder, the kids can drink grape juice but we might give them a sip of wine if they get too hyper.

Killgore Trout Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:01:39am

CNN started experimenting with more intrusive pop-up ads and animated banners a few months ago. I gave them a week or two and just stopped visiting as much. They’ve taken all the crap off their page but I tend to go other places now.

Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:01:49am

re: #19 Jeff In Ohio

Part of the problem with the music industry is that there is tremendous pushback against their claim that they “own” the music that people buy. Restricting distribution is one thing, but saying music can’t be ripped onto hard drives, copied onto MP3 players, etc., is going just a bit too far, and there’s been a strong backlash against the music conglomerates for it. They haven’t adapted well to the digital era, and they’re hurting because of that.

RogueOne Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:03:37am

re: #31 thedopefishlives

Same with movies. For some reason they have it in their heads that I’m not allowed to copy a DVD I bought with my own money.

Randall Gross Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:04:04am

What I suspect you will see coming up in the future might be things like “Friday night fights’ where one web community sends a team of three or four to debate a team from a different community in live forum with some basic ground rules.

E.G. DKOS vs. LGF on some topic, or HotAir vs. LGF on some topic.

Of course someone has to come up with the “Code Duel” for that, and create the media and infrastructure, but you can bet someone will soon.

Oh no...Sand People! Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:04:20am

re: #32 RogueOne

Same with movies. For some reason they have it in their heads that I’m not allowed to copy a DVD I bought with my own money.

Apple is the KING of control…bar none.

Varek Raith Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:04:21am

Every new medium will kill the music/movie industry!
RIAA/MPAA BS.
:)

Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:05:06am

re: #32 RogueOne

Same with movies. For some reason they have it in their heads that I’m not allowed to copy a DVD I bought with my own money.

And now a similar problem is happening to the news industry. Rather than it being all about “getting something for nothing”, it’s more that the newspapers aren’t keeping up with the digital times and offering things the consumers want in a form that they’re willing to pay for.

Walter L. Newton Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:05:08am

re: #32 RogueOne

Same with movies. For some reason they have it in their heads that I’m not allowed to copy a DVD I bought with my own money.

How do you deal with people who want to make copies to 1) give away, 2) possibly sell? Is there a problem with that?

RogueOne Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:05:50am

re: #33 Thanos

…..
E.G. DKOS vs. LGF on some topic, or HotAir vs. LGF on some topic.

Of course someone has to come up with the “Code Duel” for that, and create the media and infrastructure, but you can bet someone will soon.

Rule #1. Don’t talk about fight club.
Rule #2. No blood, no foul.

Killgore Trout Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:06:54am

re: #33 Thanos

What I suspect you will see coming up in the future might be things like “Friday night fights’ where one web community sends a team of three or four to debate a team from a different community in live forum with some basic ground rules.

E.G. DKOS vs. LGF on some topic, or HotAir vs. LGF on some topic.

Of course someone has to come up with the “Code Duel” for that, and create the media and infrastructure, but you can bet someone will soon.

That’s an interesting idea.

RogueOne Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:07:44am

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

How do you deal with people who want to make copies to 1) give away, 2) possibly sell? Is there a problem with that?

Certainly, but you could make the same argument about allowing people to buy cars. How do you know they aren’t going to use it to rob a liquor store? As long as I bought the DVD I should be entitled to make copies as long as I’m not re-selling or sharing.

Oh no...Sand People! Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:07:54am

re: #33 Thanos

What I suspect you will see coming up in the future might be things like “Friday night fights’ where one web community sends a team of three or four to debate a team from a different community in live forum with some basic ground rules.

E.G. DKOS vs. LGF on some topic, or HotAir vs. LGF on some topic.

Of course someone has to come up with the “Code Duel” for that, and create the media and infrastructure, but you can bet someone will soon.

I’ll sit the bench and be like..7th man, just in reserve in case some of the ‘intellectual giants’ here pull a muscle, or braincramp up.

*starts physical fitness regiman in preparation*

abbyadams Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:08:10am

re: #33 Thanos

It would be neat to have someone “ref” the discourse by calling out talking points for each side.

Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:08:38am

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

How do you deal with people who want to make copies to 1) give away, 2) possibly sell? Is there a problem with that?

Therein lies the crux of the problem with any copyrighted work. How do you control distribution without interfering with people’s ability to manipulate their own personal copy? Any answer to that question would be a billion-dollar industry in and of itself.

Cato the Elder Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:09:02am

re: #28 RogueOne

Have you ever thought about moving overseas and teaching?

What, English? There are three woefully underpaid English teachers for everyone who wants to learn.

Walter L. Newton Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:09:49am

re: #40 RogueOne

Certainly, but you could make the same argument about allowing people to buy cars. How do you know they aren’t going to use it to rob a liquor store? As long as I bought the DVD I should be entitled to make copies as long as I’m not re-selling or sharing.

How do we know you are not re-selling or sharing. And a car is not an intellectual property, not in the sense of a piece of music or a created piece of art or movie.

That comparison doesn’t even make sense?

Randall Gross Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:10:29am

re: #39 Killgore Trout

That’s an interesting idea.

Yes, what’s interesting to me about it is that the community blog mind could be feeding the “debate team” on the side. E.G. Digging up facts and counter points as the debate went along. It would certainly take debate to a higher point than “Crossfire” or “Point counter point” where you just get bumpersticker talking points.

Charles Johnson Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:10:34am

The newest stalker technique is to show that I’m just imagining they’re stalkers — by flooding every comment thread at every site I link to, with nasty, weird, homophobic insults, threats, outrageous lies, and now at Richard Metzger’s site, an impersonator.

[Link: www.dangerousminds.net…]

Obdicut Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:10:44am

re: #44 Cato the Elder

Actually, you can still make an okay living in Japan and South Korea by doing so. I’d suggest South Korea for you, since it has a much larger Catholic community. If you have any desire to move at all, that is.

Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:11:12am

re: #47 Charles

The newest stalker technique is to show that I’m just imagining they’re stalkers — by flooding every comment thread at every site I link to, with nasty, weird, homophobic insults, threats, outrageous lies, and now at Richard Metzger’s site, an impersonator.

[Link: www.dangerousminds.net…]

They’re going to show that you’re imagining they’re stalkers… by stalking you? I don’t get it.

Jeff In Ohio Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:11:38am

re: #31 thedopefishlives

Part of the problem with the music industry is that there is tremendous pushback against their claim that they “own” the music that people buy. Restricting distribution is one thing, but saying music can’t be ripped onto hard drives, copied onto MP3 players, etc., is going just a bit too far, and there’s been a strong backlash against the music conglomerates for it. They haven’t adapted well to the digital era, and they’re hurting because of that.

Except it is not a claim. It is true. You license the music, you do not purchase it. Get over it.

Look, there is no question the majors totally fucked up here. But the music business is not just the majors, it’s mostly independents and cowboys. I’ll give you a nice tidy anecdote. Some locals are on a small label. Their label has sold maybe 5000 total of 3 records they have put out as tracked via Soundscan. For shits and grins the label owner, who barely breaks even, took a look at their pirated downloads off of one of the major sp2p sites. 70,000. seventy thousand.

Oh no...Sand People! Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:11:52am

re: #46 Thanos

Yes, what’s interesting to me about it is that the community blog mind could be feeding the “debate team” on the side. E.G. Digging up facts and counter points as the debate went along. It would certainly take debate to a higher point than “Crossfire” or “Point counter point” where you just get bumpersticker talking points.

And the argument ends when the first side cries, “RACIST!”

They lose by intellectual default..unless you are arguing with Stromfront or a group that actually does put out a racist point.

Randall Gross Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:12:08am

re: #47 Charles

The newest stalker technique is to show that I’m just imagining they’re stalkers — by flooding every comment thread at every site I link to, with nasty, weird, homophobic insults, threats, outrageous lies, and now at Richard Metzger’s site, an impersonator.

[Link: www.dangerousminds.net…]

You are the Howard Kozell of teh innernets, you are stuck in their haids forevah.

Dark_Falcon Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:12:12am

re: #35 Varek Raith

Every new medium will kill the music/movie industry!
RIAA/MPAA BS.
:)

Just another big organization protecting its gravy train. Nothing interesting there.

abbyadams Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:12:39am

re: #51 Oh no…Sand People!

May I add “JUST LIKE HITLER” and “NAZI” to the list?

Varek Raith Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:12:47am

re: #47 Charles

The newest stalker technique is to show that I’m just imagining they’re stalkers — by flooding every comment thread at every site I link to, with nasty, weird, homophobic insults, threats, outrageous lies, and now at Richard Metzger’s site, an impersonator.

[Link: www.dangerousminds.net…]

Alright, who uploaded a logic bomb in the stalker drones???
/

Obdicut Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:12:58am

re: #47 Charles

They prove your points pretty well. I read some of Nodrog’s site the other day, and it’s weird, because the stories he tells of people’s bannings are so obviously, well, to most rational people, they were banned for legitimate reasons or there’s obviously more to the story.

I really like the accusation by the stalkers that paying any attention to them equates to stalking, as well. The irony, it biteth deep.

Cato the Elder Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:13:16am

re: #48 Obdicut

Actually, you can still make an okay living in Japan and South Korea by doing so. I’d suggest South Korea for you, since it has a much larger Catholic community. If you have any desire to move at all, that is.

Well, that’s a prospect I could learn to love. And Haku is a Korean Jindo, so he’d be right at home.

I met a really terrific Korean-Japanese fellow at the wine bar me and my German GF went to in DC last night. He was the manager and at some point a bottle of Riesling showed up on the table as a present.

Walter L. Newton Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:13:30am

re: #43 thedopefishlives

Therein lies the crux of the problem with any copyrighted work. How do you control distribution without interfering with people’s ability to manipulate their own personal copy? Any answer to that question would be a billion-dollar industry in and of itself.

My concern is with the fact that a whole lot of people don’t want to see any solution, even if the solution is fair.

Vicious Babushka Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:13:38am

re: #47 Charles

The newest stalker technique is to show that I’m just imagining they’re stalkers — by flooding every comment thread at every site I link to, with nasty, weird, homophobic insults, threats, outrageous lies, and now at Richard Metzger’s site, an impersonator.

[Link: www.dangerousminds.net…]

Internet impersonators are the lowest of the low.

Randall Gross Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:13:39am

I want to see Fark vs Bchan on Scientology and stuff like that as well, this stuff could get highly entertaining….

RogueOne Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:14:17am

re: #44 Cato the Elder

What, English? There are three woefully underpaid English teachers for everyone who wants to learn.

Probably true. I had an army buddy who went to europe and taught English when he finally got tired of playing army. He ended up in Lithuania, somehow, teaching English and my sister teaches English in a Saudi school.

Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:14:41am

re: #50 Jeff In Ohio

Except it is not a claim. It is true. You license the music, you do not purchase it. Get over it.

Even so, it’s a license to make use of a copy of the music. Being totally unreasonable about the terms of the license by severely restricting what we’re allowed to do with that copy is not the way to go about preventing copyright infringement.

Obdicut Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:14:56am

re: #57 Cato the Elder

If you’re genuinely interested, I might know some contacts in that area. Let me know, and I’ll ask for information for you.

Oh no...Sand People! Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:15:08am

re: #54 abbyadams

May I add “JUST LIKE HITLER” and “NAZI” to the list?

Then their needs to be ‘chronology meter’ to be able to place info thrown out into a timeline. So as to keep the ‘revisionist’ history to a minimum. Determine who said what point at what time in the argument.

I can see this being the digital version of the ‘Buckley’ Vs. ‘Chomsky’ debate…but savvier digitally and technologically.

Randall Gross Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:15:59am

Anyway it’s just an idea, one that could become the next killer site of the internet or one that could flop like a wet dishrag depending on execution and participation.

Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:16:15am

re: #58 Walter L. Newton

My concern is with the fact that a whole lot of people don’t want to see any solution, even if the solution is fair.

And I would agree with you. I’m a software developer by trade, and copyrights/patents are a pretty heated subject in my field. I know you know, because you’re a programmer yourself.

Oh no...Sand People! Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:17:00am

re: #65 Thanos

Anyway it’s just an idea, one that could become the next killer site of the internet or one that could flop like a wet dishrag depending on execution and participation.

Or the moderators keep killing themselves out of all the sheer stupidity thrown out…well..I guess Digg is still functioning..so I suppose it could survive.

Varek Raith Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:17:16am

re: #58 Walter L. Newton

My concern is with the fact that a whole lot of people don’t want to see any solution, even if the solution is fair.

Well, if the solutions are anything like the increasingly draconian DRM schemes in PC games, count me out.

Walter L. Newton Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:18:46am

re: #66 thedopefishlives

And I would agree with you. I’m a software developer by trade, and copyrights/patents are a pretty heated subject in my field. I know you know, because you’re a programmer yourself.

And published playwright. When one of my scripts are produced by a theatre, I have enough people that I have to share my royalties with, I’m certainly not interested in “spreading the wealth” and further than I have to.

Wealth… well, pennies.

Shiplord Kirel Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:19:02am

John McCain’s primary opponent, Congressman J.D. Hayworth (Trog-AZ) is at it again, this time with a warning that gay marriage could lead to the legalization of bestiality:
J.D. Hayworth: ‘You could marry your horse’

Actually, no, J.D. The Massachusetts gay marriage law defines marriage as between 2 persons (not too mammals or organisms) and requires that the union be voluntary. Getting informed consent from a barnyard animal might be a little tricky.

RogueOne Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:19:06am

re: #45 Walter L. Newton

How do we know you are not re-selling or sharing. And a car is not an intellectual property, not in the sense of a piece of music or a created piece of art or movie.

That comparison doesn’t even make sense?

Why do we have to start with the assumption that a person who has bought a DVD is a potential criminal? That’s where I was going with the car analogy. The fact that a person “might” break the law shouldn’t restrict what we’re legally entitled to do with our own property.

The Sanity Inspector Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:19:11am

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The internet: Come for the cute cat pictures, stay for the hardcore pornography.

Benjamin Franklin said that if you want to keep your heart away from temptation, keep your feet away from opportunity. A tough thing, now that opportunity is just a click away…so I’ve been told…

Walter L. Newton Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:19:13am

re: #68 Varek Raith

Well, if the solutions are anything like the increasingly draconian DRM schemes in PC games, count me out.

Made my point.

DaddyG Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:19:50am

re: #13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The internet: Come for the cute cat pictures, stay for the hardcore pornography.

Either way you slice it you are looking at puss… /

Oh no...Sand People! Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:19:57am

re: #70 Shiplord Kirel

John McCain’s primary opponent, Congressman J.D. Hayworth (Trog-AZ) is at it again, this time with a warning that gay marriage could lead to the legalization of bestiality:
J.D. Hayworth: ‘You could marry your horse’

Actually, no, J.D. The Massachusetts gay marriage law defines marriage as between 2 persons (not too mammals or organisms) and requires that the union be voluntary. Getting informed consent from a barnyard animal might be a little tricky.

Government should not have ever had a role in the ‘marriage’ business in the first place.

Cato the Elder Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:20:05am

I just flashed on this image of all the newspaper editors in the world holding their noses, covering their eyes, and going, “pew!”

Dark_Falcon Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:20:39am

re: #56 Obdicut

They prove your points pretty well. I read some of Nodrog’s site the other day, and it’s weird, because the stories he tells of people’s bannings are so obviously, well, to most rational people, they were banned for legitimate reasons or there’s obviously more to the story.

I really like the accusation by the stalkers that paying any attention to them equates to stalking, as well. The irony, it biteth deep.

It’s just another attack. They have a need to feel like they are better than us, so they scream about being stalked. Its a need for attention meeting massive butthurt.

DaddyG Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:20:58am

re: #70 Shiplord Kirel

John McCain’s primary opponent, Congressman J.D. Hayworth (Trog-AZ) is at it again, this time with a warning that gay marriage could lead to the legalization of bestiality:
J.D. Hayworth: ‘You could marry your horse’

Actually, no, J.D. The Massachusetts gay marriage law defines marriage as between 2 persons (not too mammals or organisms) and requires that the union be voluntary. Getting informed consent from a barnyard animal might be a little tricky.

If you take this sentient being to be your spouse stomp your appendage once. /

Varek Raith Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:21:38am

re: #73 Walter L. Newton

Made my point.

So you’re okay with software that has install limits, ala latest versions of SecuRom? DRM that has Ring 0 level access? DRM that has been proven to interfere with burner drives, ala StarForce?
What would be an acceptable common ground for you?

Walter L. Newton Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:22:04am

re: #71 RogueOne

Why do we have to start with the assumption that a person who has bought a DVD is a potential criminal? That’s where I was going with the car analogy. The fact that a person “might” break the law shouldn’t restrict what we’re legally entitled to do with our own property.

Then why do we have DUI check points? Because the assumptions can be backed up with actual facts. We know for a fact that a lot of people ripe off media of all sorts.

That’s not assumptions, that’s facts. Just like DUI, we know it happens enough to assume that we have to be proactive.

I have no problem with that.

DaddyG Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:22:58am

re: #75 Oh no…Sand People!

Government should not have ever had a role in the ‘marriage’ business in the first place.

It would be worth giving up my tax deduction just to treat people like people and drop all of this “who gets the benefits” nonsense. I am very comfortable making moral judgements for myself. Not so much making them for other people much less legislating them.

Oh no...Sand People! Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:23:15am

re: #56 Obdicut

They prove your points pretty well. I read some of Nodrog’s site the other day, and it’s weird, because the stories he tells of people’s bannings are so obviously, well, to most rational people, they were banned for legitimate reasons or there’s obviously more to the story.

I really like the accusation by the stalkers that paying any attention to them equates to stalking, as well. The irony, it biteth deep.

Knew an exceedingly large gentlemen growing up. He played football at the local collegiate institution. He would dye his hair akin to ‘Dennis Rodman’, do all that he could to get attention with his outfits, then, when he would get his attention that he was yearning for, “What are YOU LOOKING AT!?” etc. Lame, Lame. Lame.

Walter L. Newton Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:25:10am

re: #79 Varek Raith

So you’re okay with software that has install limits, ala latest versions of SecuRom? DRM that has Ring 0 level access? DRM that has been proven to interfere with burner drives, ala StarForce?
What would be an acceptable common ground for you?

What the industry comes up with. The bottom line is making money, isn’t it. Those who are too restrictive will loose, those who work out a equitable scheme will win.

I don’t have a whole industry behind me to inform me what the final answer is/should be, so I certainly can’t answer you question with anything more than this general statement.

Jeff In Ohio Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:25:25am

re: #62 thedopefishlives

Even so, it’s a license to make use of a copy of the music. Being totally unreasonable about the terms of the license by severely restricting what we’re allowed to do with that copy is not the way to go about preventing copyright infringement.

Well, I’m not sure exactly what your talking about. Except for DRM’d files, which hardly exist and when they did, they were failry easy to defeat, I’m not sure what prevents your from ripping a CD to your drive and using it with in the confines of the license and Fair Use.

Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:27:11am

re: #84 Jeff In Ohio

Well, I’m not sure exactly what your talking about. Except for DRM’d files, which hardly exist and when they did, they were failry easy to defeat, I’m not sure what prevents your from ripping a CD to your drive and using it with in the confines of the license and Fair Use.

Many music CD’s these days are DRM’d to prevent being ripped at all, for starters. DRM’d digital download files are in a similar situation. I don’t think DRM was the correct solution to the problem, but I can’t tell you what the correct solution should be, either. It is an extremely complex problem.

Shiplord Kirel Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:27:39am

re: #78 DaddyG

If you take this sentient being to be your spouse stomp your appendage once. /

Reminds me of a story about two British colonials reminiscing in a bar in Africa.
One asks, “Say, what ever happened to our old colonel?”
“Around the bend, living up country in a treehouse with a baboon, for heaven’s sake.”
“Male or female?”
“Why, female of course.”
“Good. Nothing weird about the colonel.”

Oh no...Sand People! Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:28:08am

re: #81 DaddyG

It would be worth giving up my tax deduction just to treat people like people and drop all of this “who gets the benefits” nonsense. I am very comfortable making moral judgements for myself. Not so much making them for other people much less legislating them.

I read an article the other day by Pres. Oaks. In my opinion it seemed the points he used for his argument, can be used exactly to defend the other side. I just don’t see the threat that ‘same sex’ marriage offers.

Slap Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:29:26am

re: #84 Jeff In Ohio

Admittedly, many still come with that ridiculous “anti-piracy” coding, so it’s problematic.

But this is no new story. The now-legendary PMRC hearings were a cynical attempt by the recording industry to hide their efforts to obtain a blank tape tax as a hedge against piracy. (Nicely documented in The Real Frank Zappa Book.) The industry has been hemorrhaging for a long, long time….

Varek Raith Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:30:17am

re: #83 Walter L. Newton

What the industry comes up with. The bottom line is making money, isn’t it. Those who are too restrictive will loose, those who work out a equitable scheme will win.

I don’t have a whole industry behind me to inform me what the final answer is/should be, so I certainly can’t answer you question with anything more than this general statement.

Well, the industry has come up with quite a few turds as of late, with regards to PC games. I have no issues with a cd check, or a key code or a one time online activation. What I do have a problem with is DRM that has install limits, hidden device drivers that remain even if you uninstall the software it’s tied to, constantly requiring you to be online while you play, DRM that degrades system performance…

Political Atheist Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:30:33am

This sounds terribly naive and conservative, but he biggest factor here is the public’s willingness to steal. People who would never shoplift will steal movies, music and articles with utter abandon. We have ourselves to blame above any criticism you have over the record labels etc.

This has more to do with music than online news, I for one have no problem with accepting ads on the page pr paying to not have them. In my case here I subscribe for the nominal amount, and accept the ads.

Shiplord Kirel Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:30:52am

Actually, J.D. Hayworth looks a little like a horse.

Do you think……..

Nah, won’t go there.

RogueOne Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:30:52am

re: #80 Walter L. Newton

Then why do we have DUI check points? Because the assumptions can be backed up with actual facts. We know for a fact that a lot of people ripe off media of all sorts.

That’s not assumptions, that’s facts. Just like DUI, we know it happens enough to assume that we have to be proactive.

I have no problem with that.

I’ve seen some DRM that basically attaches a serial to a specific cd so they can track it back to the source, I don’t have a problem with that idea. I also don’t have a problem with them putting a limit on how many times you can copy a DVD but they won’t even go that far. Why should I be limited in how I can view a product I paid to use? There was just a settlement last week between Real Networks and the studios that was interesting:

[Link: boingboing.net…]

The suits in question revolve around RealDVD, software Real introduced in September 2008 that would copy the full contents of a video DVD to a file that could be played back on a Windows system. RealDVD is not a DVD ripper: those programs use one of many methods to strip the Content Scramble System (CSS), the DRM that wraps up DVD content, and other defensive techniques.

CSS and its ilk aren’t precisely defended by technology—the standards are too weak or poorly executed—but by law. The much-excoriated Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) prohibits “circumvention” of software that’s designed to prevent copying. Breaking DRM encryption breaks the law.

But Real went through the steps to obtain a license from the DVD Copy Control Association (DCCA), which controls CSS on behalf of the movie industry. RealDVD decrypted the DVD, copied it, and then locked it tight. Up to five PCs licensed by the same person could play back the discs. (Real also broke through a couple of unrelated protection efforts.)

Obdicut Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:33:06am

re: #90 Rightwingconspirator

It’s different with intrusive DRM, because the pirated version is actually better quality— it doesn’t have the annoying DRM.

I ‘hack’ the games I buy (other than on Steam) so I can play them without disc in drive— and sometimes without loadup movies. The pirated product that creates is better than the retail version.

That is the chief problem: Most DRM is a restriction without a benefit. That’s why Steam is DRM I can deal with— it has many huge benefits.

DaddyG Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:33:14am

re: #87 Oh no…Sand People!

I read an article the other day by Pres. Oaks. In my opinion it seemed the points he used for his argument, can be used exactly to defend the other side. I just don’t see the threat that ‘same sex’ marriage offers.

In the case of an established church it could be used to dictate that they certify certain arrangements other than those that align with their doctrines. That is somewhat of a slippery slope argument but it isn’t too far fetched given what the government required us to do in the past vis a vis polygamy (loss of property, loss of legal status, etc.)

In the end it seems simpler to me to leave religious ordinances (marriage, sealings) to the churches and legal arrangements (civil unions, partnerships, dependents) to the state. That cuts both ways however and things like partner benefits and deductions should have nothing to do with what a church ordains.

Randall Gross Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:33:34am

re: #89 Varek Raith

Well, the industry has come up with quite a few turds as of late, with regards to PC games. I have no issues with a cd check, or a key code or a one time online activation. What I do have a problem with is DRM that has install limits, hidden device drivers that remain even if you uninstall the software it’s tied to, constantly requiring you to be online while you play, DRM that degrades system performance…

Absolutely agree, There are also issues around “digital rights lockers” and lack thereof. E.G. if you bought tunes from some of the early providers on the internet, they’ve now gone out of business, and their rights check servers are long gone.

Jeff In Ohio Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:33:35am

re: #88 Slap

Admittedly, many still come with that ridiculous “anti-piracy” coding, so it’s problematic.

But this is no new story. The now-legendary PMRC hearings were a cynical attempt by the recording industry to hide their efforts to obtain a blank tape tax as a hedge against piracy. (Nicely documented in The Real Frank Zappa Book.) The industry has been hemorrhaging for a long, long time…

It has, and for good reason, and I say good riddance. But in our zeal to stick it the Big 5, it’s songwriters and independent players who are really getting screwed. And you won’t find DRM on their releases.

Political Atheist Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:36:04am

re: #93 Obdicut

But theft is what made DRM necessary to begin with! The fact it diminishes the quality speaks more to the necessity of having it and technical limitations. Face it-we have multi generational ethic of small time thievery.

Oh no...Sand People! Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:36:25am

re: #94 DaddyG

In the case of an established church it could be used to dictate that they certify certain arrangements other than those that align with their doctrines. That is somewhat of a slippery slope argument but it isn’t too far fetched given what the government required us to do in the past vis a vis polygamy (loss of property, loss of legal status, etc.)

In the end it seems simpler to me to leave religious ordinances (marriage, sealings) to the churches and legal arrangements (civil unions, partnerships, dependents) to the state. That cuts both ways however and things like partner benefits and deductions should have nothing to do with what a church ordains.

In this day and age, I don’t see ‘same sex’ marriage ‘secularly’ having any impact on religious doctrines. I don’t see how it could. If they get married by the state, it has nothing to do with being married by the church.

Shiplord Kirel Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:36:45am

Here’s a pleasant surprise:
Not even the freepers are buying Hayworth’s horse marriage warning:

I hate it when people make the case against gay marraige with ridiculous arguments like this. It just looks stupid.

No fooling. Stupid and desperate. If that’s the best argument he can come up with, he probably should avoid the subject.

And the inevitable “Wish I’d thought of that” moment:

Gives new meaning to the words, “getting hitched”.

100

Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:37:43am

I know that the discussion has been dragged a bit off-topic, but I could see a copyright protection scheme going as follows: Download providers provide a mechanism for consumers to obtain a one-time public/private key pair to download a song, for example. The downloaded file is encrypted using the user’s public key, so only they can unjail the provided file with their private key. Once unjailed, they are free to use it however they wish. They could also provide a proprietary encryption/decryption mechanism that tags the user’s public key in the decrypted file. The latter would make the last step easy: Step up enforcement of copyrights against anyone who publishes the unjailed file without consent.

101

Walter L. Newton Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:37:44am

re: #89 Varek Raith

re: #92 RogueOne

Obviously I don’t have the answer, if I did, I would be rich, but I’ll say this, anything right now is better than nothing. I don’t want to see any creative intellectual property being ripped off.

That make sense to you?

102

Batman Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:38:10am

Sometimes I’m reading a blog and they link to an article on New York Times or some other paper’s website but it requires a membership to view. The membership is free, but still I’m like “screw this” and continue on my day.

103

darthstar Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:38:32am

Why get the milk for free when you can buy a teat-share?

104

Varek Raith Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:41:10am

re: #101 Walter L. Newton

re: #92 RogueOne

Obviously I don’t have the answer, if I did, I would be rich, but I’ll say this, anything right now is better than nothing. I don’t want to see any creative intellectual property being ripped off.

That make sense to you?

Absolutely, absolutely! My issue is that they’re going about it in such a way that hurts legitimate users while doing nothing to curb piracy.
:)

105

webevintage Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:41:45am

Maybe OT.

Other people’s work.
I’ve been thinking about that lately because I have a large collection of vintage 30’s-60’s Vogues and Harper’s B that I like to scan photographs from and put on my website to share.
When I do, I acknowledge where it came from and the photographer if listed (ads normally do not say who took the photograph) and have no problem if others use the image.
But I have noticed that a number of other folks who do this will watermark the image as if it is their own.
Is it theirs since they own the magazine and have scanned it to their blog or website?
Maybe it is wrong for me to scan old ads and fashion pictures since the magazines hold the copyright?

(this is more about just feeling superior to people who have annoyed me on occasion because I am a bitch at times and want to be right)

106

Obdicut Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:44:51am

re: #97 Rightwingconspirator

But theft is what made DRM necessary to begin with! The fact it diminishes the quality speaks more to the necessity of having it and technical limitations. Face it-we have multi generational ethic of small time thievery.

No, you’re not listening. You can have DRM that also provides a benefit— like Steam. If you do not, you are making the retail product inferior to the pirated copy. It doesn’t matter ‘who started it’. If you use DRM, you need to provide a benefit or you cannot be surprised when people prefer the better version— the pirated one.

107

Varek Raith Mon, Mar 15, 2010 10:47:23am

Anyone here ever have to deal with a StarForce infected* system?
Yeesh.

*StarForce is DRM that is nothing short of malware*

108

The Curmudgeon Mon, Mar 15, 2010 11:50:38am

Maybe all this has been tried before, but I can imagine a big newspaper charging a small annual fee for premium content, while giving the bulk of their content away for free. For example, all their headlines and a few paragraphs of each news story would be free, with an optional “more” button for premium subscribers. What other premium content could be added to induce readers to pay? Maybe (besides the “more” button) the premium package would include the following:

No online ads.
Full transcripts of interviews, hearings, etc.
Search-able database & archives.
Ability to add (not just read) comments.

But as I mull it over, I doubt that this could generate enough revenue to keep a major news organization in business. Okay, nothing to see here. Move along, folks.

109

andres Mon, Mar 15, 2010 12:47:58pm

re: #84 Jeff In Ohio

Well, I’m not sure exactly what your talking about. Except for DRM’d files, which hardly exist and when they did, they were failry easy to defeat, I’m not sure what prevents your from ripping a CD to your drive and using it with in the confines of the license and Fair Use.

Does Sony rings a bell?

re: #85 thedopefishlives

Many music CD’s these days are DRM’d to prevent being ripped at all, for starters. DRM’d digital download files are in a similar situation. I don’t think DRM was the correct solution to the problem, but I can’t tell you what the correct solution should be, either. It is an extremely complex problem.

There will never be a perfect solution. The music industry has to accept a good enough solution that won’t be perfect.

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