Clinton Pledges ‘Unshakeable Bond’ with Israel

Middle East • Views: 2,803

Hillary Clinton dialed down the diplomatic confrontation with Israel this morning, pledging that the US has “an unshakeable bond” with Israel, and dismissing suggestions that the relationship between the US and Israel was at its worst point in decades.

“We have an absolute commitment to Israel’s security. We have a close, unshakeable bond between the United States and Israel,” Clinton told a news briefing.

Her comments marked a turn after days of tough U.S. talk following Israel’s announcement last week that it would approve construction of a housing project in East Jerusalem, a move which infuriated the Palestinians and put hopes for resumption of Middle East peace talks on hold. …

“We share common values and a commitment to a democratic future for the world, and we are both committed to a two-state solution” for Israel and the Palestinians, she said. “But that doesn’t mean that we are going to agree. We don’t agree with any of our international partners on everything.”

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543 comments
1 albusteve  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:39:28am

tomorrow Stand Up Joe will say something like the opposite

2 SixDegrees  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:39:59am

re: #1 albusteve

tomorrow Stand Up Joe will say something like the opposite

I don't think they give Joe speaking parts anymore.

3 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:40:04am

Hillary Clinton has decent political instincts. She knows she overreached and is pulling back. This is a good thing.

4 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:40:47am

re: #1 albusteve

tomorrow Stand Up Joe will say something like the opposite

Once the adults start talking, Joe sits down and shuts up. He's a back-bencher compared to HRC.

5 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:42:05am

Rage Day was a success!

6 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:43:56am

Where have I heard that before...

Oh wait...

Speaker Pelosi in 2007.

VP Biden last week.

Gen. Jim Jones in 2009.

President Ronald Reagan in 1982.

President Bush in 2008.

In other words, this is standard diplomatic language to try and salvage a bad situation where the US disagrees with how Israel is proceeding.

7 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:44:18am

Rep. King Calls For Velvet Revolution Against The Government


Rep. Steve King (R-evolting) urged a smaller-than-expected crowd of Tea Party protesters on Tuesday to launch a Velvet Revolution-style uprising against the federal government, saying the parallels are striking between America's current government and Eastern European communist rule.

Speaking to the Huffington Post shortly after his speech, King declared that a peaceful uprising, a la the successful overthrowing of the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia on the streets of Prague in 1989 "would be fine with me."

"Fill this city up, fill this city, jam this place full so that they can't get in, they can't get out and they will have to capitulate to the will of the American people," he said.

"So this is just like Prague under communist rule?" the Huffington Post asked.

"Oh yeah, it is very, very close," King replied. "It is the nationalization of our liberty and the federal government taking our liberty over. So there are a lot of similarities there."

8 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:45:02am

Welcome words from Secretary of State Clinton. Hopefully she will privately tell the palestinian "leaders" that they better start bringing something to the table too. I don't think she'll do that publicly because, you know, the terrorists and their leaders don't like taking orders from strong women.

9 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:45:26am

I guess the INSULT and the OUTRAGE has passed.
Psssst, Bibi, quick...issue the building permits.

10 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:45:27am

Now, that Sec. State Clinton has gone and said this - the US will make still more demands on Israel to placate the Palestinians who see the unshakable bond language as undermining their claims to all of Israel (their ultimate aspiration).

11 gordon marock  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:46:26am

Great news! I feel so reassured.

12 jaunte  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:50:18am

It wouldn't be surprising if the NYT reporters have a single key that enters the phrase:
a move which infuriated the Palestinians and put hopes for resumption of Middle East peace talks on hold

13 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:51:08am

I think there is a feeling, especially by the Israel bashers that the relationship between the USA and Israel is 100% one sided with US as the giver and Israel as the recipient.

But how much do you want to bet that when it comes to human intelligence about the facts on the ground in the mideast, the Israelis give us more than we can get on our own?

14 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:51:58am

re: #6 lawhawk

Where have I heard that before...

Oh wait...

Speaker Pelosi in 2007.

VP Biden last week.

Gen. Jim Jones in 2009.

President Ronald Reagan in 1982.

President Bush in 2008.

In other words, this is standard diplomatic language to try and salvage a bad situation where the US disagrees with how Israel is proceeding.

Yep, and this is why I refused to get all worked up about this latest confrontation. It's just another step in a dance that's been going on for a long long time. Sound and fury, signifying nothing much.

15 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:52:55am

Ha'aretz article quoting the same speech:

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said Monday that Israel must prove it is committed to the Middle East peace process, but brushed
aside suggestions that U.S.-Israeli relations are in crisis.

U.S. and Israeli officials are in intense talks over "steps that we think would demonstrate the requisite commitment to the process," said Clinton.

She added that the Obama administration was awaiting a response from Israel to suggestions on how to repair damage caused by last week's announcement of new housing in East Jerusalem.

At the same time, Clinton said she did not think ties between the U.S. and Israel were in danger. She said the United States and Israel have a "close, unshakable bond" and that Washington remained absolutely committed to Israeli security.

...

According to a report in The Washington Post on Tuesday, U.S. officials say that Mitchell's visit will remain on hold until the White House receives an Israeli response to key demands.

Israel must reverse its approval for construction in Ramat Shlomo, make a "substantial gesture" towards the Palestinians and publicly declare that all of the "core issues" in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, including the status of Jerusalem, be included in upcoming talks.

The three conditions, set by U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in a 43-minute telephone call to Netanyahu on Friday, have not been publicized by the U.S. - but Israel is expected to provide a formal answer on Tuesday, the Post reported.

Clinton and Obama are trying to wring more concessions from Israel, whilst simultaneously ignoring the PA dedication of a square to honor terrorists (it was postponed but has now happened). Countless statements of incitement for rioting in Jerusalem, and a "Day of Rage" that occurred today.

16 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:53:18am

OT.

Attention Lizards:

It has been revealed to me that certain people who detest me on certain other blogs have found out my secret. I'm maggot-infested.

To preempt any sympathy, protestations of outrage, or catcalls of agreement (more than one catcall always ends up sounding like two cats fucking, anyway), allow me to confirm the rumor.

I keep a supply of maggots in my freakishly large belly-button (an innie, of course) to snack on during troll-dearths, and whenever I whack a mole here.

They keep me up to fighting weight. And they go really well with Coors.

17 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:53:55am

“But that doesn’t mean that we are going to agree. We don’t agree with any of our international partners on everything.”

Especially not when it comes to crimes against humanity, like building houses.

By the way, I am glad that in the last Israel-related-thread here at LGF finally some pro-Israel-commentators appeared. Good to see those folks, at first I thought that the Obdicuts, Cineastes, Wrenchwrenchs, Bratwursts, Gus80s and so on would be the majority here now. I am glad that I was wrong.

18 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:56:14am

In case there was any doubt as to what message would be sent to the Palestinians:

The crisis that erupted last week between the US and Israel over plans to build 1,600 new homes in Jerusalem’s Ramat Shlomo neighborhood has been welcomed by the Palestinian Authority as a “positive development.” PA officials and media outlets have since been highlighting – with a tone full of satisfaction – every single report or statement about the crisis between Jerusalem and Washington.

The feeling among senior PA officials is that the US administration is this time very serious about forcing Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu to either cancel or postpone the Ramat Shlomo project indefinitely.

“What Israel did last week, when it announced the new housing plan during US Vice President Joe Biden’s visit to Jerusalem, was the best thing that could have happened to the Palestinian Authority,” noted a PA official in Ramallah. “Now the Americans know what we mean when we say that settlement construction remains the main obstacle to peace.”

...

The PA is now waiting to see whether the US administration will be able to extract far-reaching concessions from the Netanyahu government.

19 albusteve  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:56:21am

down goes the gauntlet

20 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:56:40am

re: #17 gegenkritik

Excuse the hell out of me?! They are not "anti-Israel"! This is the kind of crap I was talking about in that thread. Any disagreements with Israeli policy and you get smacked with the "anti-Israel" card.

21 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:57:37am

re: #17 gegenkritik

By the way, I am glad that in the last Israel-related-thread here at LGF finally some pro-Israel-commentators appeared. Good to see those folks, at first I thought that the Obdicuts, Cineastes, Wrenchwrenchs, Bratwursts, Gus80s and so on would be the majority here now. I am glad that I was wrong.

Finally?

You don't read me much, do you?

22 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:57:53am

re: #17 gegenkritik

re: #20 Varek Raith

Excuse the hell out of me?! They are not "anti-Israel"! This is the kind of crap I was talking about in that thread. Any disagreements with Israeli policy and you get smacked with the "anti-Israel" card.

I have to agree with Varek -- I've been debating with some of those you've named and they are quite reasonable.

To Varek -- at least he didn't call them anti-Semitic? =P

23 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:58:26am

"Are you satisfied now, you fucking Jew bastards?"

24 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:58:48am

re: #20 Varek Raith
Sorry, forgot you in my list.

25 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:58:51am

re: #23 Alouette

"Are you satisfied now, you fucking Jew bastards?"

Huh?

26 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:58:54am

re: #20 Varek Raith

Excuse the hell out of me?! They are not "anti-Israel"! This is the kind of crap I was talking about in that thread. Any disagreements with Israeli policy and you get smacked with the "anti-Israel" card.

At best...

27 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:58:56am

re: #17 gegenkritik

Whoo hoo, I'm in first place!

28 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:59:36am

re: #25 Joo-LiZ

Huh?

Just channeling Hillary.

29 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:01:06am

re: #28 Alouette

Not unlike Jim Baker in his spin as Secretary of State under Bush Sr....

30 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:01:11am

re: #27 Obdicut
Nearly 7,000 comments in less than a half year, guess 99% of it being stupid spam. Sad that creeps like this guy are now dominating the threads.

31 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:01:41am

re: #24 gegenkritik

I'm anti-Israel? Who else on this forum believes that I am so?
Idiot.
GAZE.

32 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:01:58am

re: #17 gegenkritik

“But that doesn’t mean that we are going to agree. We don’t agree with any of our international partners on everything.”

Especially not when it comes to crimes against humanity, like building houses.

By the way, I am glad that in the last Israel-related-thread here at LGF finally some pro-Israel-commentators appeared. Good to see those folks, at first I thought that the Obdicuts, Cineastes, Wrenchwrenchs, Bratwursts, Gus80s and so on would be the majority here now. I am glad that I was wrong.

Speaking as a pro-Israel commentator, get over yourself, and stop calling out people who didn't agree with you on the last thread.

33 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:02:17am

re: #30 gegenkritik

Well, that certainly wasn't a spam comment with nothing to it but a creep factor. Thanks for showing us all the way.

34 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:02:17am

re: #30 gegenkritik

Gotta disagree entirely. I don't always agree with obdicut, but there's no way to argue that it's stupid spam. Same goes with some of the others you mentioned up thread. Simply uncalled for...

35 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:02:47am

Pakistan-born cleric Dr Muhammad Tahir ul-Qadri issues fatwa condemning terrorism.

"This fatwa is an absolute condemnation of terrorism. Without any excuse, without any pretext, without any exceptions, without creating any ways of justification," he said.

"This condemnation is in its totality, in its comprehensiveness, its absoluteness, a total condemnation of every act of terrorism in every form which is being committed or has been committed wrongly in the name of Islam."

The fellow who runs the website that tallies the ongoing instances of Islamic terrorism around the world notes that the body count was greater the week after the fatwa was issued than in the entire month prior.

Seems some people literally didn't get the memo yet....

36 Samson  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:02:56am

If the relationship is so great, Obama should go visit Israel as he has done for most of the other countries in the region. The fact is, he does not really have the expertise or the interest to run US foreign policy in the middle east or, apparently, anywhere else. Like many, I had hoped that by now he would be up to speed, but it just doesn't look like it is going to happen anytime soon. His administration's misplayed and duplicitous policies toward Israel, their useless and embarrassing kowtowing toward the other countries in the middle east, their anemic and clumsy attitude toward the EU and, worst of all, their dithering about Iran and its nuclear weapons program all appear been devised by someone ignorant of history and international diplomacy. In any case, I do not feel very reassured by Hillary Clinton's statement, much as I would like to be.

37 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:03:17am

re: #30 gegenkritik

Nearly 7,000 comments in less than a half year, guess 99% of it being stupid spam. Sad that creeps like this guy are now dominating the threads.

HE has over 11k karma points on his 7k comments.

You are in the negatives... look who's talking!

This is a case of pot calling the salt black.

(*I just totally made that up -- anyone wanna help me come with a better expression?*)

38 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:03:26am

re: #30 gegenkritik

Nearly 7,000 comments in less than a half year, guess 99% of it being stupid spam. Sad that creeps like this guy are now dominating the threads.

I disagree from time to time with Obdicut, but I don't feel he is a creep. In fact, he seems like a decent human being.

39 gordon marock  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:03:32am

re: #23 Alouette

"Are you satisfied now, you fucking Jew bastards?"

Nope.

40 albusteve  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:03:36am

re: #24 gegenkritik

Sorry, forgot you in my list.

"list's suck"
albusteve

41 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:05:08am

re: #35 The Sanity Inspector

Pakistan-born cleric Dr Muhammad Tahir ul-Qadri issues fatwa condemning terrorism.

The fellow who runs the website that tallies the ongoing instances of Islamic terrorism around the world notes that the body count was greater the week after the fatwa was issued than in the entire month prior.

Seems some people literally didn't get the memo yet...

Look, the guy did what he could do. If the terrorists don't posken by him, there's not a hell of a lot he can do about it.

42 Neutral President  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:05:40am

re: #17 gegenkritik

Not a single one of those people is "anti-Israel" to my knowledge.

43 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:06:01am

re: #36 Samson

Obama has visited Israel.

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

I don't expect facts to alter your opinions, of course.

44 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:06:03am

re: #37 Joo-LiZ

HE has over 11k karma points on his 7k comments.

You are in the negatives... look who's talking!

This is a case of pot calling the salt black.

(*I just totally made that up -- anyone wanna help me come with a better expression?*)

I will "gegenkritik you are a fucking asshole."

45 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:06:30am

re: #40 albusteve

"list's suck"
albusteve

I agree.
*Wanders around the store wondering what the hell he needed*
:)

46 Neutral President  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:06:51am

re: #37 Joo-LiZ

This is a case of pot calling the salt black.

(*I just totally made that up -- anyone wanna help me come with a better expression?*)

People in glass houses sink ships?

47 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:07:04am

re: #43 Obdicut

Obama has visited Israel.

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

I don't expect facts to alter your opinions, of course.

But that was when he was a senator! It doesn't COUNT!

//

48 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:07:24am

re: #35 The Sanity Inspector

It's a step in the right direction. Is not one things people call for constantly in this issue (and some others) is that the moderates call out the extremists for acting improperly as representatives of their stated religion?

49 gordon marock  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:07:52am

I have given up giving a shit what people's motivations are for supporting or criticizing Israel. In my mind, Obama is anti-semitic, and that is the end of the story for me because my mind is the only one that matters. The reality is that the US is content to allow Iran to obtain a nuclear capability. Accordingly, it will be solely up to Israel to do somethign about it. When they do, I hope they are fully successful and do not suffer significant losses.

50 albusteve  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:08:19am

re: #47 SanFranciscoZionist

But that was when he was a senator! It doesn't COUNT!

//

exactly...his foreign diplomacy is a farce

51 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:09:40am

re: #42 ArchangelMichael

For the record, this is my position on Israel:

Talking about the Israel-Palestine conflict without talking about the roles of the other Arab States is silly, especially when you're talking about US diplomacy in the region.

Israel is the only real democracy in a region dominated by theocrats, oligarchies, and outright dictatorships. They deserve our support-- our existential support-- based on that alone.

Israel is not able to end the conflict unilaterally, since the Palestinians are continually being riled up by both their own leaders and by the other Arab states. Most of Israel's decisions are between two bad choices-- and that's not Israel's fault.

Individual Israeli actions and policies can be criticized on their own ethical grounds, without it being an overall criticism of Israel's actions.

What is needed is a change in the Arab states and in the Palestinians.

The main key to achieving this is to reduce worldwide dependence on oil.


Oh man, I'm so anti-Israel. It's so damn obvious! I'm just a tool of the Palestine authority, how come I never noticed? The shame of it all.

52 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:09:47am

re: #43 Obdicut

Obama has visited Israel.

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

I don't expect facts to alter your opinions, of course.

More seriously, Bush made his first presidential visit to Israel toward the end of his second term, after press criticism.

This is not to say that I wouldn't like to see Obama go somewhat sooner, just that his behavior so far is not a break with recent practice.

53 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:09:49am

re: #15 Joo-LiZ

Ha'aretz article quoting the same speech:

Clinton and Obama are trying to wring more concessions from Israel, whilst simultaneously ignoring the PA dedication of a square to honor terrorists (it was postponed but has now happened). Countless statements of incitement for rioting in Jerusalem, and a "Day of Rage" that occurred today.

Lovely, huh? Double standard? No standard?

54 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:09:53am

re: #37 Joo-LiZ

It's easy to get positive ratings at LGF: simply make variations of the statements that Islam is a Religion of Peace, that Obama is the best friend of Israel, that climate-apocalypse will kill us all, that creationists are equal to Osama bin Laden and so on.

This Obdicut-freak is the perfect example that does not need any brains for being "honored with updings" among many commentators here.

By the way: Some time ago, when most of the Lizards were MUCH more conservative, I also recieved a lot of downdings and experienced the mob-attitude of people, who are not willing to think for a second.
The Thread was about abortions and since I made it very clear, that I think every woman should have the right to rule over her own body, I got a lot of downdings and ugly comments.

But it wasn't so many downdings like one recieves nowadays here when he is openly pro-Israel.

55 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:10:20am

re: #49 gordon marock

In my mind, Obama is anti-semitic, and that is the end of the story for me because my mind is the only one that matters.


Your imagination rules the universe! Congratulations.

56 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:10:23am

Any disagreement with Israel on anything whatsoever = Anti-Israel or anti-Semitic.

Curious, does disagreeing with US policy in any way whatsoever make one anti-American?

*rolls eyes*

57 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:10:34am

re: #50 albusteve

exactly...his foreign diplomacy is a farce

Why?

58 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:10:48am

re: #17 gegenkritik

Don't you have a bridge to lurk under?

59 albusteve  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:10:59am

re: #49 gordon marock

I have given up giving a shit what people's motivations are for supporting or criticizing Israel. In my mind, Obama is anti-semitic, and that is the end of the story for me because my mind is the only one that matters. The reality is that the US is content to allow Iran to obtain a nuclear capability. Accordingly, it will be solely up to Israel to do somethign about it. When they do, I hope they are fully successful and do not suffer significant losses.

boring but I'll say it again....friction between Israel and her adversaries is a money making machine...it's officially a multi billion dollar enterprise

60 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:11:07am

re: #49 gordon marock

[...] In my mind, Obama is anti-semitic, and that is the end of the story for me because my mind is the only one that matters. [...]

In my mind, you are a mole in need of whacking.

*whack!*

[munches heartily on a deeelicious maggot]

61 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:11:13am

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

And it must be an absolute security nightmare for both the SS and Israel, too.

62 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:11:33am

re: #53 Radicchio ad Absurdum

Lovely, huh? Double standard? No standard?

No, definitely a double standard.

63 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:12:25am

re: #62 SanFranciscoZionist

No, definitely a double standard.

For Israel. NO standard for Palestinians.

64 Neutral President  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:12:28am

re: #54 gegenkritik

If this is a pre-flounce jog you are dancing, why don't you just cut to the chase?

65 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:12:35am

re: #56 Varek Raith

Any disagreement with Israel on anything whatsoever = Anti-Israel or anti-Semitic.

Curious, does disagreeing with US policy in any way whatsoever make one anti-American?

*rolls eyes*

Not since Obama took office. Now it makes you PRO-American!!

//

66 gordon marock  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:12:44am

re: #55 Killgore Trout

Your imagination rules the universe! Congratulations.

Thank you.

67 albusteve  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:12:51am

re: #57 SanFranciscoZionist

Why?

oh, I dunno

68 Neutral President  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:13:32am

re: #64 ArchangelMichael

If this is a pre-flounce jog jig you are dancing, why don't you just cut to the chase?

PIMF

69 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:13:39am

re: #54 gegenkritik

Would it help if I complimented your use of punctuation? It's refreshing to be attacked by someone who doesn't make basic orthographic errors.

70 cgn38navy  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:13:52am

re: #36 Samson

I don't know if it is really the fact that he himself doesn't have the experience. Usually an administration has a foriegn policy team. It seems to me that with the exception of maybe Hillary Clinton, his team is more used to using "Chicago Style" tactics. It doesn't seem to be working out on the international stage.

71 gordon marock  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:13:56am

re: #60 Cato the Elder

In my mind, you are a mole in need of whacking.

*whack!*

[munches heartily on a deeelicious maggot]

Ouchee. No, wait, you are the mole and I whack you.

72 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:14:07am

re: #54 gegenkritik

OK, I am learning, I admit that. But sometimes when you read a blog, the tone of people's comments give credence or take away credence to their stance.

That's why I enjoy reading SFZ.

You are an ass gegenkritik.

73 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:14:13am

re: #54 gegenkritik

But it wasn't so many downdings like one recieves nowadays here when he is openly pro-Israel.

I think I have been quite openly pro-Israel the last few days, and I've had quite a few updings on posts.

I think your downdings are more for your argumentative tone than for your views.

74 Kragar  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:14:19am

re: #64 ArchangelMichael

If this is a pre-flounce jog you are dancing, why don't you just cut to the chase?

He is working up for a really big [deleted].

75 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:14:46am

re: #61 Obdicut

And it must be an absolute security nightmare for both the SS and Israel, too.

No worse than going to Iraq, which Bush did a number of times, or a trip to Egypt, say. You have to do it properly, but they and we have the equipment, and the Israelis have a LOT of practice with security.

76 cgn38navy  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:15:28am

re: #37 Joo-LiZ
Karma points don't exactly mean anything here anymore. I see a bunch of people who are always in agreement giving approval points to each other for just posting.

77 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:16:04am

re: #54 gegenkritik

But it wasn't so many downdings like one recieves nowadays here when he is openly pro-Israel.

I am openly pro-Israel.

Let the downdings begin.

If they don't, your argument is shot to shit.

78 Kragar  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:16:32am

Just an observation, but people seem more likely to down ding you if you come across as a total dick, rather than just disagree with your statement. Statements usually get a conversation going. Showing your dickjitsu mastery? Not so much.

79 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:16:32am

re: #75 SanFranciscoZionist

True. I just wouldn't be cut out for that job. If I was head of Secret Service I'd want him to stay home every night. "Come on, Mr. President, we're showing Office Space in the fortified bunker. You love that movie!"

80 albusteve  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:16:46am

re: #75 SanFranciscoZionist

No worse than going to Iraq, which Bush did a number of times, or a trip to Egypt, say. You have to do it properly, but they and we have the equipment, and the Israelis have a LOT of practice with security.

Bush's foreign policy was a farce

81 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:17:33am

re: #49 gordon marock

Are Marocks like Morlocks? Because the Lizard Army is hungry.

82 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:17:36am

Somewhat OT:

This is disgusting.

"We all have evil within us. Even small children are evil towards each other," Danish-Norwegian artist Nina Maria Kleivan tells Haaretz as she explains why she chose to dress up her baby daughter as the most evil historical figures of the 20th century.

"Even my daughter could end up ruling Denmark with an iron fist. The possibility is still there. You never know."

In the controversial photo-series "Potency," Kleivan's daughter Faustina, then a few months old, depicts such infamous personalities as Joseph Stalin, Benito Mussolini, Saddam Hussein, Ayatollah Khomeini, Chairman Mao, Idi Amin, Augusto Pinochet, Slobodan Milosevic, and Adolf Hitler. The aim is to illustrate just one thing: We all begin life the same. We all have every opportunity ahead of us. To do good, or inexplicable evil.

Pictures are posted at the link (Ha'aretz)

83 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:17:41am

re: #76 cgn38navy

Man, when Charles goes on vacation, it always seems like there's a rash of people posting about how LGF sucks now.

What is the motivation? I don't get it.

84 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:17:56am

re: #76 cgn38navy

Karma points don't exactly mean anything here anymore. I see a bunch of people who are always in agreement giving approval points to each other for just posting.

They used to be carefully doled out according to precise rubrics by critically careful readers.

85 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:18:12am

re: #54 gegenkritik

It's easy to get positive ratings at LGF: simply make variations of the statements that Islam is a Religion of Peace, that Obama is the best friend of Israel, that climate-apocalypse will kill us all, that creationists are equal to Osama bin Laden and so on.

This Obdicut-freak is the perfect example that does not need any brains for being "honored with updings" among many commentators here.

By the way: Some time ago, when most of the Lizards were MUCH more conservative, I also recieved a lot of downdings and experienced the mob-attitude of people, who are not willing to think for a second.
The Thread was about abortions and since I made it very clear, that I think every woman should have the right to rule over her own body, I got a lot of downdings and ugly comments.

But it wasn't so many downdings like one recieves nowadays here when he is openly pro-Israel.

LGF remains a blog that is very sympathetic and friendly towards Israel. While the "demographics" of the posters has edged a bit to the left, the vast majority (and the blog owner) remains quite pro Israel.

86 gordon marock  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:18:17am

re: #81 Dark_Falcon

Are Marocks like Morlocks? Because the Lizard Army is hungry.

Fine, eat me.

87 jaunte  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:18:25am

re: #84 SanFranciscoZionist

They used to be carefully doled out according to precise rubrics by critically careful readers.

I updinged you just as a random test.

88 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:18:33am

re: #69 Obdicut
English is not my first language, but feel free to bash me for orthographic errors. Besides speaking English, German, Norwegian and some Russian, I am learning Arabic and Hebrew right now.

By the way, how many languages do you speak?

89 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:18:35am

re: #77 Cato the Elder

I am openly pro-Israel.

Let the downdings begin.

If they don't, your argument is shot to shit.

I UP-dinged you. And sang "Ha-Tikvah".

90 eastsider  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:18:47am

re: #46 ArchangelMichael

People in glass houses sink ships?

WOOO BOONDOCK

91 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:18:58am

re: #82 Joo-LiZ

I fucking hate people who exploit their children for money. What an asshole.

I get the artistic message. It doesn't need a real baby involved.

92 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:19:51am

re: #79 Obdicut

True. I just wouldn't be cut out for that job. If I was head of Secret Service I'd want him to stay home every night. "Come on, Mr. President, we're showing Office Space in the fortified bunker. You love that movie!"

"We can make popcorn!" Yeah, I think the Secret Service would be too much for my nerves. Especially if I got one of those presidents whose always wanting to break away from the detail and shake hands with voters and stuff.

93 Neutral President  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:19:58am

re: #90 eastsider

WOOO BOONDOCK

A penny saved is worth two in the bush.

94 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:20:00am

re: #80 albusteve

Bush's foreign policy was a farce

Why?

95 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:20:01am

re: #89 SanFranciscoZionist

I UP-dinged you. And sang "Ha-Tikvah".

I thought I heard some fine-sounding tune playing off in the distance. Thank you!

96 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:20:26am

re: #88 gegenkritik

I was complimenting you because you wrote very well, actually. So I'm not quite sure why you're being defensive.

Your message is kind of whack-a-doodle, but at least I don't have to wade through grammar mistakes to understand that you somehow think I'm anti-Israel, despite, you know, my support for Israel.

97 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:21:29am

re: #82 Joo-LiZ

Somewhat OT:

This is disgusting.


Pictures are posted at the link (Ha'aretz)

Oy.

98 eastsider  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:21:35am

re: #54 gegenkritik

It's easy to get positive ratings at LGF: simply make variations of the statements that Islam is a Religion of Peace, that Obama is the best friend of Israel, that climate-apocalypse will kill us all, that creationists are equal to Osama bin Laden and so on.

This Obdicut-freak is the perfect example that does not need any brains for being "honored with updings" among many commentators here.

By the way: Some time ago, when most of the Lizards were MUCH more conservative, I also recieved a lot of downdings and experienced the mob-attitude of people, who are not willing to think for a second.
The Thread was about abortions and since I made it very clear, that I think every woman should have the right to rule over her own body, I got a lot of downdings and ugly comments.

But it wasn't so many downdings like one recieves nowadays here when he is openly pro-Israel.

there's a bit of a difference between being "pro israel" and being "inflammatory and personally insulting" which I think is what's probably getting you the downdings. just a hunch.

99 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:21:40am

re: #88 gegenkritik

English is not my first language, but feel free to bash me for orthographic errors. Besides speaking English, German, Norwegian and some Russian, I am learning Arabic and Hebrew right now.

By the way, how many languages do you speak?

Great. Another intellectual snob.

100 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:21:49am

re: #17 gegenkritik

“But that doesn’t mean that we are going to agree. We don’t agree with any of our international partners on everything.”

Especially not when it comes to crimes against humanity, like building houses.

By the way, I am glad that in the last Israel-related-thread here at LGF finally some pro-Israel-commentators appeared. Good to see those folks, at first I thought that the Obdicuts, Cineastes, Wrenchwrenchs, Bratwursts, Gus80s and so on would be the majority here now. I am glad that I was wrong.

As one who often holds a different viewpoint than the folks on your list, I object on their behalf. I have seen these folks condemn truly anti-Israel posts along with the rest of us. Boo.

101 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:21:56am

re: #98 eastsider

there's a bit of a difference between being "pro israel" and being "inflammatory and personally insulting" which I think is what's probably getting you the downdings. just a hunch.

Bingo!

102 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:22:11am

re: #83 Obdicut

Man, when Charles goes on vacation, it always seems like there's a rash of people posting about how LGF sucks now.

What is the motivation? I don't get it.

Used to be a safe place for some kinds of acting out you can't do now.

103 eastsider  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:22:14am

re: #93 ArchangelMichael

A penny saved is worth two in the bush.

its saint paddy's day, everybody's irish!

104 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:22:14am

re: #17 gegenkritik

“But that doesn’t mean that we are going to agree. We don’t agree with any of our international partners on everything.”

Especially not when it comes to crimes against humanity, like building houses.

By the way, I am glad that in the last Israel-related-thread here at LGF finally some pro-Israel-commentators appeared. Good to see those folks, at first I thought that the Obdicuts, Cineastes, Wrenchwrenchs, Bratwursts, Gus80s and so on would be the majority here now. I am glad that I was wrong.

As I seem to recall you accused me of being an architect of the Pogroms for suggesting that it was a bit insulting for the announcement of the building permits to coincide with a visit by the US Vice President. It was. We said so. They apologized and we acknowledged that we're all on the same side.

Grow up and play with the big kids.

105 albusteve  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:22:20am

re: #94 SanFranciscoZionist

Why?

oh, I dunno
I'm ding surfing....
do I really have to say anything?
how does it work?

106 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:22:24am

re: #94 SanFranciscoZionist

Why?

Maybe this?

But Obama gets shit for a bow.

107 SixDegrees  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:22:43am

re: #82 Joo-LiZ

Somewhat OT:

This is disgusting.

Pictures are posted at the link (Ha'aretz)

The problem with a lot of what passes for art these days is it's extreme intellectual shallowness. This would be a case in point.

It's too bad, because it tends to spill over and stain all the really, really good art that's out there.

108 cgn38navy  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:22:56am

re: #80 albusteve
Yeah, those democratic elections in Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Palistine. Failure. Military exercises with Israel and Turkey. Stupid. The turning over of the nuclear information by Gaddafi. Waste of time. The 5 party talks with North Korea. Miserable. Womens rights achievements in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. More Failure.

109 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:23:12am

re: #88 gegenkritik

English is not my first language, but feel free to bash me for orthographic errors. Besides speaking English, German, Norwegian and some Russian, I am learning Arabic and Hebrew right now.

By the way, how many languages do you speak?

I only speak two languages: English and Pig Latin.

[Link: www.ehow.com...]

110 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:23:55am

re: #76 cgn38navy

Au contraire. they remain quite useful for identifying particularly cogent or particularly distasteful posts, as one needs to cross ideological lines (in either a good or bad way) to accumulate massive good or ill will on a single post.

111 Girth  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:23:58am

re: #54 gegenkritik

But it wasn't so many downdings like one recieves nowadays here when he is openly pro-Israel.

I won't speak for others, but my downdings are solely because you are a confrontational flame-throwing asshole who throws out insinuations and accusations of anti-semitism with no basis in fact.

112 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:24:02am

re: #77 Cato the Elder
But you have to be quiet about the biggest danger for Israel, which is Islam (you are not allowed to critizise it as an ideology, only condemn bin Laden, Hamas, maybe Fatah [not sure with the last one, at least some time ago, it was clear that they are a bunch of anti-semitic terrorists, dunno if they are now "moderates"]). You also have to confirm that Obama is an absolutely pro-Israel President, that the Palestinians have to get a state and that Israel should not allowed to build settlements.

If you do otherwise, you'll recieve many downdings from people, who even consider themselves as "pro"-Israel.

113 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:24:11am

re: #109 _RememberTonyC

I only speak two languages: English and Pig Latin.

[Link: www.ehow.com...]

Oodgay orfay ouyay! igpay atinlay siay ardhay anguagelay otay earnlay!

114 albusteve  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:24:22am

re: #102 SanFranciscoZionist

Used to be a safe place for some kinds of acting out you can't do now.

Charles has his handy dandy little texting gizmo to spy on us now....we can't be left unsupervised

115 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:25:01am

re: #105 albusteve

oh, I dunno
I'm ding surfing...
do I really have to say anything?
how does it work?

Just ask for a ding, Steve, and I'll give you one.

116 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:25:04am

re: #114 albusteve

Charles has his handy dandy little texting gizmo to spy on us now...we can't be left unsupervised

Hmm? What texting gizmo?

117 John Vreeland  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:25:12am

re: #17 gegenkritik

Especially not when it comes to crimes against humanity, like building houses.

Trying to move the de facto border while negotiations on where the de jure border belongs is usually seen as negotiating in bad faith. Thus the uproar.

118 albusteve  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:25:14am

re: #108 cgn38navy

Yeah, those democratic elections in Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Palistine. Failure. Military exercises with Israel and Turkey. Stupid. The turning over of the nuclear information by Gaddafi. Waste of time. The 5 party talks with North Korea. Miserable. Womens rights achievements in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. More Failure.

easy, I'm only using 5 pound test here

119 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:25:35am

re: #106 Cato the Elder

Maybe this?

But Obama gets shit for a bow.

Every time Abdallah visited the Bush ranch, my mother was heard to hope that the dog would hump his leg.

120 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:25:45am

re: #115 SanFranciscoZionist

*blink*

121 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:25:48am

re: #48 oaktree

It's a step in the right direction. Is not one things people call for constantly in this issue (and some others) is that the moderates call out the extremists for acting improperly as representatives of their stated religion?

Yes. But I want more. Lots, lots more, from many, many more Muslims in positions of influence.

122 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:25:49am

re: #113 Joo-LiZ

Oodgay orfay ouyay! igpay atinlay siay ardhay anguagelay otay earnlay!

ess yay !!

123 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:25:50am

re: #112 gegenkritik

Ahh, now I see...
Islam = terrorist, in your mind.

124 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:26:37am

re: #112 gegenkritik

Go on, have a martyr cookie. They've got frosting today!

125 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:26:50am

re: #92 SanFranciscoZionist

"We can make popcorn!" Yeah, I think the Secret Service would be too much for my nerves. Especially if I got one of those presidents whose always wanting to break away from the detail and shake hands with voters and stuff.

if i were in the Service, i'd ban popcorn...the last thing my nerves would need is a snack that sounds like guns...//

126 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:26:56am

re: #49 gordon marock

I have given up giving a shit what people's motivations are for supporting or criticizing Israel. In my mind, Obama is anti-semitic, and that is the end of the story for me because my mind is the only one that matters. The reality is that the US is content to allow Iran to obtain a nuclear capability. Accordingly, it will be solely up to Israel to do somethign about it. When they do, I hope they are fully successful and do not suffer significant losses.

Totally an anti-semite. That's why he hired the son of Israelis to run his White House... ///

Oh brother.

*head smack*

127 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:26:59am

re: #96 Obdicut

Sorry for that then. As I said, my English is not that good, so I did not get the message.

128 jaunte  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:27:01am

Anyone know what Biden meant geographically when he referred to a 'contiguous' Palestinian state?

129 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:27:08am

re: #112 gegenkritik

Do you think that the people on this thread don't read LGF or something? Joo-LiZ, just as an example, supports the settlements wholeheartedly, and has gotten updings for that stance. Many of them.

Whereas Dr. Cordell has gotten many downdings when he's overreached-- as has Darthstar (sorry dude) for not knowing that Hamas/Fatah charter called for an end to Israel's existence.

What crowd are you playing to?

130 eastsider  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:27:18am

re: #112 gegenkritik

But you have to be quiet about the biggest danger for Israel, which is Islam (you are not allowed to critizise it as an ideology, only condemn bin Laden, Hamas, maybe Fatah [not sure with the last one, at least some time ago, it was clear that they are a bunch of anti-semitic terrorists, dunno if they are now "moderates"]). You also have to confirm that Obama is an absolutely pro-Israel President, that the Palestinians have to get a state and that Israel should not allowed to build settlements.

If you do otherwise, you'll recieve many downdings from people, who even consider themselves as "pro"-Israel.

Nope, you can disagree with many of those and not get downdinged.

Watch:

I, eastsider, think that the two-state solution may not be the best idea. I think that radical Islam is a threat not just to Israel but to every sane person across the globe.

Ding at your leisure, LGF.

131 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:27:25am

I know it's playtime when this sort of thing happens, but does anyone else feel like you've heard it all before? I don't like what this poster said either, but what would happen if the reaction were varied once in awhile? All the terms--flouncing, trolls, getting out the charcoal, low karma points, mole whacking, all of it . . . the only thing going for it is tradition, and I like Tevye as much as anyone, but I'm for something, anything else. The "troll" comments serve a purpose for the good sometimes. I thought one of Obdicut's responses was full of information that I hadn't otherwise known. It may not have come out without this "disturbance in the force." Change the channel just for fun.

132 albusteve  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:27:48am

re: #115 SanFranciscoZionist

Just ask for a ding, Steve, and I'll give you one.

thanks, I'll save it for when I really need it...you're the best!

133 Kragar  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:28:05am

re: #112 gegenkritik

But you have to be quiet about the biggest danger for Israel, which is Islam (you are not allowed to critizise it as an ideology, only condemn bin Laden, Hamas, maybe Fatah [not sure with the last one, at least some time ago, it was clear that they are a bunch of anti-semitic terrorists, dunno if they are now "moderates"]). You also have to confirm that Obama is an absolutely pro-Israel President, that the Palestinians have to get a state and that Israel should not allowed to build settlements.

If you do otherwise, you'll recieve many downdings from people, who even consider themselves as "pro"-Israel.

I'm sorry, but that answer is incorrect, but we do have some lovely parting gifts.

134 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:28:26am

re: #128 jaunte

Anyone know what Biden meant geographically when he referred to a 'contiguous' Palestinian state?

biden ain't too bright .... I think he meant to say "contagious"

/

135 albusteve  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:28:40am

re: #106 Cato the Elder

Maybe this?

But Obama gets shit for a bow.

TONGUE!

136 cgn38navy  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:28:44am

re: #102 SanFranciscoZionist

I've been posting how LGF has been moving left for some time. Doesn't mean it sucks. I enjoy it tremendously and still find it a great place to get factual and very informative info. I just don't like most of you commie pinko hippies.

137 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:29:00am

re: #112 gegenkritik

But you have to be quiet about the biggest danger for Israel, which is Islam (you are not allowed to critizise it as an ideology, only condemn bin Laden, Hamas, maybe Fatah [not sure with the last one, at least some time ago, it was clear that they are a bunch of anti-semitic terrorists, dunno if they are now "moderates"]). You also have to confirm that Obama is an absolutely pro-Israel President, that the Palestinians have to get a state and that Israel should not allowed to build settlements.

If you do otherwise, you'll recieve many downdings from people, who even consider themselves as "pro"-Israel.

bah. Thank heavens we Christians had the opportunity to grow out of our dark ages. One can ask the same of Islam without bigoted calls to relegate it entirely to the trash bin of history. I'm concerned that this little distinction is so difficult for you to work out...

138 jaunte  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:29:08am

re: #134 _RememberTonyC

But really, how does he imagine that happening?

139 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:29:17am

re: #52 SanFranciscoZionist

More seriously, Bush made his first presidential visit to Israel toward the end of his second term, after press criticism.

This is not to say that I wouldn't like to see Obama go somewhat sooner, just that his behavior so far is not a break with recent practice.

Take a look at the timeline of his first term and see if you can guess why he took so long to make a state visit.

Not to jump on anyone but I keep hearing "Obama's policy is almost exactly the same as Bush" when we all know that isn't what really matters. There was never a question about Bush's support of Israel, everyone on the planet knew where he came down on the issue and what the US response to an attack on Israel would look like. The same cannot be said of Obama.

That said, the perception isn't entirely the fault of our president. We all know what party for the last 30 years has pushed the Israelis to give up concessions in order to win a short-term "Peace" and which party is much quicker to tell the surrounding arab states to get bent. I'm not sure having a Clinton (even though I kind of like her) as the negotiator again is all that wise.

140 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:29:27am

re: #99 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Great. Another intellectual snob.

Hah. Another.

141 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:29:27am

re: #109 _RememberTonyC

I only speak two languages: English and Pig Latin.

[Link: www.ehow.com...]

I have a little conversational Hebrew and a little conversational French. I can recite a couple of lines of the Koran in Arabic--but I'm told they're the really important lines--and recognize cussing in Spanish at twenty paces.

I also speak a unique language I made up myself, out of scraps of all the little bits of Romance language that I know, which I speak in European airports. It makes people who actually know languages cry, but the important part is that when you tell an Italian speaker "La linea a sinistra est por les citoyens de la communita europeen," she does know where to go, even if your German travelling companion who opted out of this conversation because he doesn't speak Italian is looking at you as though you've lost your mind.

142 albusteve  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:29:38am

re: #116 Joo-LiZ

Hmm? What texting gizmo?

he posts from abroad somehow

143 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:29:44am

re: #117 Vreejack

Yet that argument falls flat on any level of scrutiny given that Israel withdrew from Sinai as part of the Camp David Accords and abandoned housing in multiple communities in Sinai.

Or when Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza and forcibly removed Israelis from communities there.

It's not the housing. Never was. It's that the Palestinians refuse Israel's very existence and continue to refuse to accept the terms under Oslo to stop inciting to violence and engaging in violence at every opportunity in conjunction with its diplomatic and propaganda campaigns. When they don't get their way at the bargaining table, their first move is to threaten yet another intifada. That's not a partner in peace.

144 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:29:46am

I keep losing my net connection today. Starting to really irritate me.

145 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:30:02am

re: #142 albusteve

he posts from abroad somehow

Magic.

146 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:30:12am

re: #136 cgn38navy

I've been posting how LGF has been moving left for some time. Doesn't mean it sucks. I enjoy it tremendously and still find it a great place to get factual and very informative info. I just don't like most of you commie pinko hippies.

Makes my day when the '60's vernacular shows up!

147 albusteve  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:30:25am

re: #128 jaunte

Anyone know what Biden meant geographically when he referred to a 'contiguous' Palestinian state?

a long, wide, bridge soaring over the desert

148 SixDegrees  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:31:25am

Meanwhile - the Dems are trying to jigger House rules so they can pass the health care bill without actually voting on it., similar to the incredibly slimy way they automatically grant themselves raises unless they happen to explicitly vote against them.

It strikes me as wretchedly pathetic that when faced with perhaps the most important legislation to pass through Congress in the last couple of decades, the leadership is battling it's own party and offering cover by providing a means where they don't have to publicly attach their names to a "Yea" vote.

149 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:31:26am

re: #147 albusteve

a long, wide, bridge soaring over the desert

No, tunnel. Let Biden dig it.

150 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:31:30am

re: #125 Aceofwhat?

if i were in the Service, i'd ban popcorn...the last thing my nerves would need is a snack that sounds like guns...//

I assumed they'd make it in the kitchen and bring it, but if we're going to make snacks ourselves--S'mores?

151 albusteve  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:31:40am

re: #119 SanFranciscoZionist

Every time Abdallah visited the Bush ranch, my mother was heard to hope that the dog would hump his leg.

what a randy old mom....I like her

152 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:31:45am

re: #138 jaunte

But really, how does he imagine that happening?

it's just hot air from a blowhard .... the only way it happens is if a corridor from gaza to the WB were built, and that splits Israel in two. biden had the same stupid idea for Iraq (dividing the nation into three seperate zones).

153 cgn38navy  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:32:14am

re: #126 Cineaste
One of Rahms only redeaming features. BTW

154 albusteve  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:32:21am

re: #149 Varek Raith

No, tunnel. Let Biden dig it.

like a sideways hole?....I get it

155 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:32:45am

re: #112 gegenkritik

But you have to be quiet about the biggest danger for Israel, which is Islam (you are not allowed to critizise it as an ideology, only condemn bin Laden, Hamas, maybe Fatah [not sure with the last one, at least some time ago, it was clear that they are a bunch of anti-semitic terrorists, dunno if they are now "moderates"]). You also have to confirm that Obama is an absolutely pro-Israel President, that the Palestinians have to get a state and that Israel should not allowed to build settlements.

If you do otherwise, you'll recieve many downdings from people, who even consider themselves as "pro"-Israel.

Bullshit.

Islam is the chief danger to Israel. It is written in the Koran.

Fatah is a phony peace partner that has never changed its charter calling for the destruction of Israel as required under the Oslo accords.

Obama is pro-Israel but walks the same oil-for-rhetoric tightrope as all his predecessors. Status quo ante votam.

Whether the Palestinians get a state lies entirely in their hands.

I have nothing against Israeli settlements, particularly not in East Jerusalem. They are, among other things, bargaining chips for when the Palestinians grow up and start negotiating in good faith, which I expect to happen the day after the Greek Kalends.

I, Cato, stand by these statements. Ego ipse dixi.

Let the downdings begin. Otherwise your argument is still for the shitter.

156 simoom  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:32:56am

re: #5 Spare O'Lake

Rage Day was a success!

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

157 albusteve  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:33:14am

re: #136 cgn38navy

I've been posting how LGF has been moving left for some time. Doesn't mean it sucks. I enjoy it tremendously and still find it a great place to get factual and very informative info. I just don't like most of you commie pinko hippies.

watch where you stick that pinko buddy

158 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:33:22am

re: #128 jaunte

Anyone know what Biden meant geographically when he referred to a 'contiguous' Palestinian state?

God alone knows. Bush used that phrase too, to much criticism and confusion. There's effectively no way to create that at this point, given the Gaza situation.

Is it possible it's code to Fatah that we can move them toward statehood if they give up on the idea of having the Gaza strip be part of that?

159 eastsider  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:33:30am

re: #136 cgn38navy

I've been posting how LGF has been moving left for some time. Doesn't mean it sucks. I enjoy it tremendously and still find it a great place to get factual and very informative info. I just don't like most of you commie pinko hippies.

and you're awful yourself, you reactionary open market freak.

/

To be serious though, if the readership of LGF has been moving left, its actually provided a good bit of education for the newcomers (myself included). We are able to engage w/ those conservatives (in the traditional, non bastardized sense of the word) who voluntarily stay and share/defend their ideas. I've changed my mind on more than a few things in the face of overwhelming and persuasive evidence from commenters here.

160 richard12  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:34:11am

Its more like Hillary has thrown Israel under the bus. Not only that, but with General Petraus, Roger Cohen at the New York Times, and other Obama administration officials and supporters now trying to say that Israel's actions can affect American soldiers lives in places like Afganistan, they have bought the Arab line about Israel. Or in other words, the source of all the muslim violence in the world is Israel. Even worse, it can be interpreted by some as being a continuation of the blood libel. These claims are a tragedy for American Jews, to whom they will inevitably be connected. For more information on this subject and Obama's Buying the Arab Lie, click my website link. I write a blog from Tel Aviv, and you're all invited to check it out. It covers a wide range of subjects about the Arab Israeli conflict, and only the posts from the past few months are about the American Administration. Its a great resource for those who want an objective (as much as an Israeli can be objective) view of events in the middle east, buzzwords like Apartheid, and the Media War being waged against Israel.

161 _RememberTonyC  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:34:27am

re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist

I have a little conversational Hebrew and a little conversational French. I can recite a couple of lines of the Koran in Arabic--but I'm told they're the really important lines--and recognize cussing in Spanish at twenty paces.

I also speak a unique language I made up myself, out of scraps of all the little bits of Romance language that I know, which I speak in European airports. It makes people who actually know languages cry, but the important part is that when you tell an Italian speaker "La linea a sinistra est por les citoyens de la communita europeen," she does know where to go, even if your German travelling companion who opted out of this conversation because he doesn't speak Italian is looking at you as though you've lost your mind.

when i was growing up, a lot of yiddish was spoken by my grandparents, who were from the old country. many of those expressions are permanently hard wired into my brain and trotted out when an old timer shows up who actually understands them.

162 jaunte  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:34:59am

re: #158 SanFranciscoZionist

God alone knows. Bush used that phrase too, to much criticism and confusion. There's effectively no way to create that at this point, given the Gaza situation.

Is it possible it's code to Fatah that we can move them toward statehood if they give up on the idea of having the Gaza strip be part of that?

Would Egypt annex Gaza? Seems like too much trouble.

163 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:35:05am

re: #137 Aceofwhat?

bah. Thank heavens we Christians had the opportunity to grow out of our dark ages. One can ask the same of Islam without bigoted calls to relegate it entirely to the trash bin of history. I'm concerned that this little distinction is so difficult for you to work out...

Sadly, if you look at the Texas Schoolboard, some Christians are trying to crawl back into the pre-Enlightenment dark ages...

164 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:35:09am

re: #158 SanFranciscoZionist

Which in effect would be a 3-state solution - Gaza, West Bank, and Israel. And Fatah and Hamas would be busy fighting their civil war by and through Israel. That's yet another reason why any peace process isn't going to happen so long as the terrorists have split up their territorial control and aren't going to stop until they dominate the other (and Israel).

165 Motti  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:35:20am

Here's my comment from the previous thread:
re: #609 Motti

When discussing the approval of the 1,600 housing units in Ramat Shlomo one would be well advised to actually look at an aerial photograph of the area in question.

[Link: lennybendavid.com...]
As pointed out in the link


Click on the photo.for those of you not familiar with the geography of Jerusalem, those neighborhoods immediately to the right of Ramat Shlomo, i.e. Ramat Eshkol, Sanhedriya, and Har Hotzvim are all Jewish neighborhoods , there are other Jewish neighborhoods off the photo to the left and to the top.
Bottom line' Ramat Shlomo is a long established neighborhood within the Jerusalem municipal borders, with 20,000 inhabitants, surrounded by other Jewish neighborhoods, which wishes to add enough apartments for it's growing population.

The Obama administration has gone purposely over the top to use what was an unfortunetly timed announcement because of a blunder , for tactical political purposes, i.e. to try again to appease the Palestinians by trying to show that along with stopping all building in the territories , they can stop all building in Jerusalem , this last position is one that the overwhelming majority of all Israelis reject.

See Joo-liz # 15 referring to a report in the Washington Post:

According to a report in The Washington Post on Tuesday, U.S. officials say that Mitchell's visit will remain on hold until the White House receives an Israeli response to key demands.

Israel must reverse its approval for construction in Ramat Shlomo, make a "substantial gesture" towards the Palestinians and publicly declare that all of the "core issues" in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, including the status of Jerusalem, be included in upcoming talks.

The three conditions, set by U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in a 43-minute telephone call to Netanyahu on Friday, have not been publicized by the U.S. - but Israel is expected to provide a formal answer on Tuesday, the Post reported

166 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:35:21am

re: #126 Cineaste

Totally an anti-semite. That's why he hired the son of Israelis to run his White House... ///

Oh brother.

*head smack*

Not that Rahm or Axelrod are particularly friendly to the Israeli government.

167 blueraven  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:35:39am

re: #131 Silvergirl

I know it's playtime when this sort of thing happens, but does anyone else feel like you've heard it all before? I don't like what this poster said either, but what would happen if the reaction were varied once in awhile? All the terms--flouncing, trolls, getting out the charcoal, low karma points, mole whacking, all of it . . . the only thing going for it is tradition, and I like Tevye as much as anyone, but I'm for something, anything else. The "troll" comments serve a purpose for the good sometimes. I thought one of Obdicut's responses was full of information that I hadn't otherwise known. It may not have come out without this "disturbance in the force." Change the channel just for fun.

Its not his message so much as his method. There is simply no reason for such name calling and judgement of people without actually, you know, knowing them.

168 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:35:44am

re: #121 The Sanity Inspector

So would I.

169 Kragar  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:35:45am

re: #162 jaunte

Would Egypt annex Gaza? Seems like too much trouble.

Egypt doesn't want Gaza.

170 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:36:42am

re: #155 Cato the Elder


I don't agree with a lot of that, but I'd never give you a downding for it.

I don't agree that Islam is an innate enemy of Israel, just that its current incarnation is.

And I don't agree that it's entirely in the hands of the Palestinians; I think that it's also in the Hands of Syria and Jordan (and the other players, but those two most of all) to stop inflaming things and to cede their own land to help form a Palestinian state. I think it's up to every Arab state to recognize Israel's right to exist.

But then again, I'm anti-Israel, you know. A little gegenkritik told me.

171 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:36:46am

re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist

I have a little conversational Hebrew and a little conversational French. I can recite a couple of lines of the Koran in Arabic--but I'm told they're the really important lines--and recognize cussing in Spanish at twenty paces.

I also speak a unique language I made up myself, out of scraps of all the little bits of Romance language that I know, which I speak in European airports. It makes people who actually know languages cry, but the important part is that when you tell an Italian speaker "La linea a sinistra est por les citoyens de la communita europeen," she does know where to go, even if your German travelling companion who opted out of this conversation because he doesn't speak Italian is looking at you as though you've lost your mind.

That was awesome. I knew exactly what you said, and i don't speak a lick of Italian or Spanish. Hilarious.

172 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:36:53am

re: #162 jaunte

No. They were offered Gaza as part of the Camp David talks and said no; they had enough trouble when they controlled it from 1948 until 1967. They didn't want it back and figured it would be a thorn in Israel's side until Israel figured out what to do next.

173 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:36:58am

re: #84 SanFranciscoZionist

They used to be carefully doled out according to precise rubrics by critically careful readers.

Yeah, exactly.

C'mon folks. Karma is a smart web master's tool for getting a community to police itself without needing heavy moderation. Karma only reflects the ethos of the community: in unhealthy web communities, bad posts will have high karma. (Imagine stormfront, for example).

It works only because people treat it as real and start moderating their own comments. But it doesn't reflect anything 'real'. We've had posters with extremely high karma who were banned, and posters who are totally senisble and very easygoing, like avanti, who at one point had negative karma.

Karma isn't redeemable for a toaster or something. People really shouldn't obsess over it. And whining that it 'once' meant 'more' is laughable.

174 albusteve  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:37:44am

re: #158 SanFranciscoZionist

God alone knows. Bush used that phrase too, to much criticism and confusion. There's effectively no way to create that at this point, given the Gaza situation.

Is it possible it's code to Fatah that we can move them toward statehood if they give up on the idea of having the Gaza strip be part of that?

obviously the answer lies with the Plates

175 jaunte  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:37:46am

re: #169 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I wouldn't think so. Just trying to imagine why Biden would say 'contiguous'.

176 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:37:53am

re: #163 Cineaste

Sadly, if you look at the Texas Schoolboard, some Christians are trying to crawl back into the pre-Enlightenment dark ages...

Alternatively filed under: "When Ace happily votes Democrat!"

177 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:37:53am

re: #173 iceweasel

I was promised a toaster!
;)

178 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:38:09am

re: #169 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Egypt doesn't want Gaza.

Nobody wants Gaza. Who would? Given that its hundreds of thousands of Arabs raised in a death cult atmosphere.

179 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:38:18am

re: #139 RogueOne


Not to jump on anyone but I keep hearing "Obama's policy is almost exactly the same as Bush" when we all know that isn't what really matters. There was never a question about Bush's support of Israel, everyone on the planet knew where he came down on the issue and what the US response to an attack on Israel would look like. The same cannot be said of Obama.

That said, the perception isn't entirely the fault of our president. We all know what party for the last 30 years has pushed the Israelis to give up concessions in order to win a short-term "Peace" and which party is much quicker to tell the surrounding arab states to get bent. I'm not sure having a Clinton (even though I kind of like her) as the negotiator again is all that wise.

Thing is, I call BS on that. There is no factual reason to think that Bush's attitude toward Israel was much different from Obama's, and I have yet to see any evidence offered here that Republican support for Israel has been greater than that of the Democrats.

Demonstrating that Obama's approach is consistent with the Bush administration's IS important, because so much of the criticism of Obama revolves around the idea that Bush was great about Israel and Obama is doing things differently--largely not true.

180 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:38:19am

re: #166 Joo-LiZ

Not that Rahm or Axelrod are particularly friendly to the Israeli government.

That may be but there is a massive difference between being friendly to the Israeli government and being an anti-semite. I would also submit that they are friendly to the Israeli government. Perhaps not as friendly as some but generally speaking we're still quite friendly with them.

181 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:38:29am

re: #17 gegenkritik

[blah blah blah...]

By the way, I am glad that in the last Israel-related-thread here at LGF finally some pro-Israel-commentators appeared. Good to see those folks, at first I thought that the Obdicuts, Cineastes, Wrenchwrenchs, Bratwursts, Gus80s and so on would be the majority here now. I am glad that I was wrong.

I know my mind is going now. I don't remember what I did to make this list.

182 albusteve  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:38:38am

re: #169 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Egypt doesn't want Gaza.

nor the Gazans

183 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:38:52am

re: #162 jaunte

Would Egypt annex Gaza? Seems like too much trouble.

not a chance. They want nothing to do with it.

184 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:38:56am

re: #160 richard12

Its more like Hillary has thrown Israel under the bus. Not only that, but with General Petraus, Roger Cohen at the New York Times, and other Obama administration officials and supporters now trying to say that Israel's actions can affect American soldiers lives in places like Afganistan, they have bought the Arab line about Israel. Or in other words, the source of all the muslim violence in the world is Israel. Even worse, it can be interpreted by some as being a continuation of the blood libel. These claims are a tragedy for American Jews, to whom they will inevitably be connected. For more information on this subject and Obama's Buying the Arab Lie, click my website link. I write a blog from Tel Aviv, and you're all invited to check it out. It covers a wide range of subjects about the Arab Israeli conflict, and only the posts from the past few months are about the American Administration. Its a great resource for those who want an objective (as much as an Israeli can be objective) view of events in the middle east, buzzwords like Apartheid, and the Media War being waged against Israel.

You live in Tel Aviv? Cool-

185 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:38:58am

re: #160 richard12

So you're throwing Petraeus under the bus so that you can say Hillary has thrown Israel under the bus?

186 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:39:12am

re: #129 Obdicut

Do you think that the people on this thread don't read LGF or something? Joo-LiZ, just as an example, supports the settlements wholeheartedly, and has gotten updings for that stance. Many of them.

Whereas Dr. Cordell has gotten many downdings when he's overreached-- as has Darthstar (sorry dude) for not knowing that Hamas/Fatah charter called for an end to Israel's existence.

What crowd are you playing to?

Just a clarification -- I support building in JERUSALEM whole heartedly. Even there, I acknowledge that some plans are just plain stupid and can be easily avoided provocation. This case with Ramat Shlomo isn't one of those times though.

I'm much less comfortable with settlements in the West Bank.

187 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:39:13am

re: #173 iceweasel

You know, as little as you and agree (on few things) we often ding each other.

Jimmah doesn't mind, does he?

188 Kragar  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:39:13am

re: #173 iceweasel

Its not redeemable? But what about the vacation in Tahiti I was saving up for?

/

189 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:39:14am

re: #136 cgn38navy

I've been posting how LGF has been moving left for some time. Doesn't mean it sucks. I enjoy it tremendously and still find it a great place to get factual and very informative info. I just don't like most of you commie pinko hippies.

I initially thought it said "commie pinko hippos" and was waiting to see who changed their avatar first...

O_o

190 Kragar  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:39:55am

re: #175 jaunte

I wouldn't think so. Just trying to imagine why Biden would say 'contiguous'.

Because he isn't really that smart and some speech writer put it in his notes.

191 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:40:00am

re: #170 Obdicut

Jordan would have nothing to do with the Palestinians or the PA, let alone Fatah. They remember the last time the PLO and Fatah tried to establish a state - on Jordanian soil. Civil war - and a Black September (and yet another terrorist splinter group to commemorate the event). Jordan isn't going to alter its border to create a Palestinian state - not when it would mean losing access to the Jordan River and/or Dead Sea.

Note too that the Jordanians aren't exactly running to give Palestinians living in Jordan Jordanian citizenship even as they've been living there for decades. It's not in their interest to do so.

192 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:40:04am

re: #167 blueraven

Its not his message so much as his method. There is simply no reason for such name calling and judgement of people without actually, you know, knowing them.

That's right.

So make the defense something more meaningful that asking what bridge he needs to crawl back under, how hot we need to make the grill, how hard we need to whack the mole . . .

Yes, he name calls and judges. He jumps in with that game and we oblige him.

193 albusteve  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:40:07am

re: #178 Dark_Falcon

Nobody wants Gaza. Who would? Given that its hundreds of thousands of Arabs raised in a death cult atmosphere.

Donald Trump would have that slum on line in two years making money hand over fist....but the Gazans are their own biggest problem

194 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:41:03am

re: #30 gegenkritik

Nearly 7,000 comments in less than a half year, guess 99% of it being stupid spam. Sad that creeps like this guy are now dominating the threads.

I may disagree with Obi on Israel (not sure if he was in the thread last night), but he's not a creep, by any means.

195 doubter4444  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:41:06am

re: #139 RogueOne

Take a look at the timeline of his first term and see if you can guess why he took so long to make a state visit.

Not to jump on anyone but I keep hearing "Obama's policy is almost exactly the same as Bush" when we all know that isn't what really matters. There was never a question about Bush's support of Israel, everyone on the planet knew where he came down on the issue and what the US response to an attack on Israel would look like. The same cannot be said of Obama.

That said, the perception isn't entirely the fault of our president. We all know what party for the last 30 years has pushed the Israelis to give up concessions in order to win a short-term "Peace" and which party is much quicker to tell the surrounding arab states to get bent. I'm not sure having a Clinton (even though I kind of like her) as the negotiator again is all that wise.

Interesting that American Jews overwhelmingly are members of and vote with "that" party.
I think that Obama is pro Israel. Just not reflexively so.
I don't think that's terrible.
I will say, as a staunch supporter of Israel, I'm getting fucking sick and tired of Bibi and AIPAC.
I think this event was cooked up to embarrass Obama and the US, and for all those who revel in Obama's taking shit, I gotta tell you that I don't like seeing my country punked, by anyone.
Complain that he's not up to it or whatever, but to not be pissed that it happened is weird.
It's the "I can think my mommas fat, but you better not say so" kinda thing.

196 eastsider  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:41:07am

re: #170 Obdicut


But then again, I'm anti-Israel, you know. A little gegenkritik told me.

Sigh, I think he is gone now. Off to write his blog (or comment on someone else's blog) about how the evil commie anti-israel bastards at lgf censored him and this is clearly a sign that we're bringing on the apocalypse, advocating the end of free speech, and murdering kittens, three at a time.

197 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:41:07am

re: #192 Silvergirl

There's a great rift between calling someone a troll and an anti-Semite.

198 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:41:38am

re: #17 gegenkritik

“But that doesn’t mean that we are going to agree. We don’t agree with any of our international partners on everything.”

Especially not when it comes to crimes against humanity, like building houses.

By the way, I am glad that in the last Israel-related-thread here at LGF finally some pro-Israel-commentators appeared. Good to see those folks, at first I thought that the Obdicuts, Cineastes, Wrenchwrenchs, Bratwursts, Gus80s and so on would be the majority here now. I am glad that I was wrong.

marjoriemoon, Stuart Leviton - you guys updinged this? Care to explain?

199 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:41:51am

re: #187 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You know, as little as you and agree (on few things) we often ding each other.

Jimmah doesn't mind, does he?

Heh. Jimmah knows I love my Veggie.

re: #177 Varek Raith

I was promised a toaster!
;)

I totally stole that line from a previous comment of yours. Was hoping you'd see the seekrit shoutout to VR. ;)

200 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:42:07am

re: #170 Obdicut

I don't agree that Islam is an innate enemy of Israel, just that its current incarnation is.

Islam in its current incarnation goes back to Mighty Mo, who started with the whole "kill the Jews" thing in propria persona, when he wiped out various Arabic Jewish tribes to the last man and took their women as slaves.

Just sayin'.

201 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:42:17am

re: #180 Cineaste

That may be but there is a massive difference between being friendly to the Israeli government and being an anti-semite. I would also submit that they are friendly to the Israeli government. Perhaps not as friendly as some but generally speaking we're still quite friendly with them.

I'll accept that, but I don't like Rahm and Axelrod being used as evidence of pro-Israel sympathies in the White House. They are more towards the left on an Israeli spectrum I think, and there is a tendency to use the fact they are Jewish and Rahm's Israeli parents as a tool to stop any protest.

202 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:42:17am

re: #171 Aceofwhat?

That was awesome. I knew exactly what you said, and i don't speak a lick of Italian or Spanish. Hilarious.

Translate it for us. All I guessed at is that something is for the European community?

203 Kragar  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:42:24am

re: #196 eastsider

Sigh, I think he is gone now. Off to write his blog (or comment on someone else's blog) about how the evil commie anti-israel bastards at lgf censored him and this is clearly a sign that we're bringing on the apocalypse, advocating the end of free speech, and murdering kittens, three at a time.

I particularly liked his "no true supporter of Israel" screed.

204 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:42:49am

re: #199 iceweasel

:)

205 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:42:59am

re: #88 gegenkritik

English is not my first language, but feel free to bash me for orthographic errors. Besides speaking English, German, Norwegian and some Russian, I am learning Arabic and Hebrew right now.

By the way, how many languages do you speak?

I remember you..You came here once bragging your IQ was 167.. That was you wasn't it? I don't care for your bragging about how languages you fucking know. Is that the best you got?

206 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:43:00am

re: #191 lawhawk

I know. That's a factor, to me, of the terrible politics, governmental structure, and the complete corruption present in the region-- empathy is one of the most lacking qualities in all of those governments. I'm not saying that there's any clear path to this-- that's why I think breaking their bank by lowering oil prices through the invention and adaptation of green tech is what's necessary.

It's really hard to do much to change extremely wealthy nations.

207 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:43:21am

re: #155 Cato the Elder
For a statement like this ( "Islam is the chief danger to Israel. It is written in the Koran" ) you would be normally declared as an anti-muslim-racist and the mob would turn on you. The only thing that is saving right now, is that you used this as an argument against me (and everyone who says something against me in this thread is right and recieves updings). But don't be fooled: If you look at Obdicuts reaction to your statement, you can guess what hell would break loose if made such anti-Islam-post in other context than using it as an argument against me.

208 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:43:23am

I've got to go now. BBL

209 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:43:34am

re: #179 SanFranciscoZionist

I have yet to see any evidence offered here that Republican support for Israel has been greater than that of the Democrats.

You can find such evidence in congressional votes...not so much in Presidential behavior, i agree. For example, IIRC, about 20-30 Democrats voted against the resolution in 2008 to give the Finger to the "fact-finding" whitewash that the UN was undertaking. I don't think more than 5 Republicans voted against it, and the number may have been 0.

So on the fringes, i think it's fair to say that Republican support is stronger. It certainly doesn't seem fair, yet, to say that Obama himself is more pro- or anti-Israel than Bush.

Although the Rev. White didn't help Obama's cause there...

210 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:44:04am

re: #201 Joo-LiZ

I'll accept that, but I don't like Rahm and Axelrod being used as evidence of pro-Israel sympathies in the White House. They are more towards the left on an Israeli spectrum I think, and there is a tendency to use the fact they are Jewish and Rahm's Israeli parents as a tool to stop any protest.

If you look at what I wrote, I didn't say anything about them being evidence of pro-Israel sympathies. I used them as a counter-argument to the assertion that Obama (and his administration) is an anti-semite. Also, you can be pro-Israel left too...

211 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:44:12am

re: #160 richard12

A baby blogpimp is hatched. Cute!

212 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:44:16am

re: #207 gegenkritik

You're a mind reader now?

213 eastsider  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:44:18am

re: #207 gegenkritik

For a statement like this ( "Islam is the chief danger to Israel. It is written in the Koran" ) you would be normally declared as an anti-muslim-racist and the mob would turn on you. The only thing that is saving right now, is that you used this as an argument against me (and everyone who says something against me in this thread is right and recieves updings). But don't be fooled: If you look at Obdicuts reaction to your statement, you can guess what hell would break loose if made such anti-Islam-post in other context than using it as an argument against me.

Heisenberg can't save you now.

214 bj  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:44:19am

re: #198 Cineaste

marjoriemoon, Stuart Leviton - you guys updinged this? Care to explain?

It could be that some "pro-Israel commentators appeared"

215 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:44:24am

re: #205 HoosierHoops

I remember you..You came here once bragging your IQ was 167.. That was you wasn't it? I don't care for your bragging about how languages you fucking know. Is that the best you got?

Oh shit! That was him? I've heard people mention it, but did not know of the origin. Bwahahahaha!

Mensanity.

Take Mensa, add insanity? MENSANITY!

216 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:44:45am

re: #197 Varek Raith

There's a great rift between calling someone a troll and an anti-Semite.

No kidding.

It all comes down to insults. He wanted to play and we played and will probably continue to play. Make them play with different rules.

217 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:45:01am

re: #51 Obdicut

The main key to achieving this is to reduce worldwide dependence on oil.

How would reducing our dependence on oil change the Arabs' attitudes towards Israel? OPEC didn't invent the concept of the dhimmi?

218 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:45:03am

re: #207 gegenkritik

Is there some other blog you read that you're getting confused with LGF?

219 bratwurst  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:45:04am

re: #17 gegenkritik


By the way, I am glad that in the last Israel-related-thread here at LGF finally some pro-Israel-commentators appeared. Good to see those folks, at first I thought that the Obdicuts, Cineastes, Wrenchwrenchs, Bratwursts, Gus80s and so on would be the majority here now. I am glad that I was wrong.

Wow, my first name check! I am honored and will gladly put my Zionist bonafides (especially time and money spent in Israel) up against yours any time.

220 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:45:10am

re: #179 SanFranciscoZionist

Thing is, I call BS on that. There is no factual reason to think that Bush's attitude toward Israel was much different from Obama's, and I have yet to see any evidence offered here that Republican support for Israel has been greater than that of the Democrats.

Demonstrating that Obama's approach is consistent with the Bush administration's IS important, because so much of the criticism of Obama revolves around the idea that Bush was great about Israel and Obama is doing things differently--largely not true.

"almost the same", "basically the same" and you just said "not much different" meaning you all understand there is a difference but you don't want to have to admit to it. You cannot deny that the dem party from Pres. Carter on down has been the driving force in US politics in pushing the Israelis to give up whatever they had to, minus the whole "right of return" thing, in exchange for what I consider a phony peace deal.

It all comes down to an easy question "who has our back?". The trust level the Israeli government had with Bush is much higher than our current president for obvious reasons.

In My Opinion™(Obdi-productions Lmtd.) of course.

221 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:45:17am
222 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:45:39am

re: #210 Cineaste

If you look at what I wrote, I didn't say anything about them being evidence of pro-Israel sympathies. I used them as a counter-argument to the assertion that Obama (and his administration) is an anti-semite. Also, you can be pro-Israel left too...

I don't personally know enough to call up examples to argue with you about it. I feel like we are talking about the same thing looked at from different perspectives, but I can't quite put my finger on it, so I'll just cede you this one.

223 Kragar  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:45:46am

re: #212 Varek Raith

You're a mind reader now?

HE'S A SORCEROR!

/

224 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:46:04am

re: #219 bratwurst

Wow, my first name check! I am honored and will gladly put my Zionist bonafides (especially time and money spent in Israel) up against yours any time.

but... but... but... he's learning hebrew!!!....

/

225 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:46:24am

Mai haid hertz.

226 albusteve  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:46:38am

re: #223 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

HE'S A SORCEROR!

/

that's pretty Mickey Mouse

227 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:46:53am

re: #196 eastsider

Sigh, I think he is gone now. Off to write his blog (or comment on someone else's blog) about how the evil commie anti-israel bastards at lgf censored him and this is clearly a sign that we're bringing on the apocalypse, advocating the end of free speech, and murdering kittens, three six at a time.

Sheesh. Get your eeevil rituals straight already...

228 eastsider  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:47:00am

re: #221 gegenkritik

whoa dude. party foul. check my #98. Read it again. Then when you think you've got it, read it again.

229 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:47:07am

re: #198 Cineaste

marjoriemoon, Stuart Leviton - you guys updinged this? Care to explain?

I already took my ding back. I also saw that he included wench on the list which pissed me off more than Obi (no offense Obi).

I was a little dismayed, however, that there wasn't more support for Israel here, yesterday on that thread and I think the people who did support Israel didn't want to say so.

230 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:47:35am

re: #205 HoosierHoops

I remember you..You came here once bragging your IQ was 167.. That was you wasn't it? I don't care for your bragging about how languages you fucking know. Is that the best you got?

Apparently. No one cares how many languages you speak when you can't talk sense in any of them.

231 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:47:38am

re: #207 gegenkritik

OK, without reference to you:

"Islam is the chief danger to Israel. It is written in the Koran."

I said that, folks. Let the mobbing begin.

232 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:47:41am

re: #219 bratwurst
Scheiß Schlacke, Führer's Lieblingsclub, im Logo. Passt ja wie Arsch auf Eimer.

233 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:48:13am

re: #202 Silvergirl

Translate it for us. All I guessed at is that something is for the European community?

"the line to the left is for the citizens of the European community"

(SFZ - how'd i do?)

234 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:48:17am

re: #222 Joo-LiZ

I don't personally know enough to call up examples to argue with you about it. I feel like we are talking about the same thing looked at from different perspectives, but I can't quite put my finger on it, so I'll just cede you this one.

No need to cede. I was just clarifying that I wasn't saying that Rahm was Israel's best & most hawkish friend but everything I've read about the Emmanuel family leads me to believe that they have very warm feelings towards Israel (and the parents are citizens).

235 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:48:58am

re: #195 doubter4444

I think Obama is locked into the same political stance as other presidents have been for decades. He's got some wiggle room, but his move to push for a peace process so early in his term and when the Palestinians clearly have no intention of peace is stunningly naive. They've done nothing to suggest that they're ready for peace with Israel and continue along the same path they've taken for years.

The chances for a diplomatic breakthrough are slim and none - in fact the last two major breakthroughs in Palestinian-Israel relations came through back channel negotiations where Israeli and Palestinian negotiators hammered out the foundations for the PA and then for Oslo.

The problem however is that the PA is a legal and de facto fiction that no longer represents all of the territories and which is split between Gaza and West Bank for control. There is no negotiating partner there, and not realizing this is again a serious problem for US foreign policy.

It would be far better for the US to maintain a hands off policy here and say that when the Palestinians are ready for peace - Hamas, Fatah, and all the other terror groups and their splinter groups are ready for peace and to stop the incitement to violence, then we can get to the bargaining table.

Otherwise, we're still talking about a theatrical production with no positive outcome - for anyone.

236 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:49:29am

re: #230 iceweasel

Apparently. No one cares how many languages you speak when you can't talk sense in any of them.

I had a former boss in the Army who could speak 8 different languages and was incredibly intelligent. The problem was he was as dumb as a stump at the same time.

237 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:49:45am

re: #196 eastsider

Sigh, I think he is gone now. Off to write his blog (or comment on someone else's blog) about how the evil commie anti-israel bastards at lgf censored him and this is clearly a sign that we're bringing on the apocalypse, advocating the end of free speech, and murdering kittens, three at a time.


For obvious reasons, you won't read statements against "evil-commies" from me.

238 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:49:56am

re: #217 The Sanity Inspector

Uh... that's a bit of a complex question. First of all, I'm Sephardic Jewish, and we can remember a time when Muslims and Jews coexisted peacefully. Yes, the dominant religion treated us like crap in some ways, but they were certainly no worse than the Christians. Jews fought on the side of the Islamic kingdoms against the Crusaders.

Second of all, I think that the governments in the Middle East take advantage of the fanaticism in the region to control their populace, by keeping their anger focused at Israel. The money they get form oil allows them extensive police state abilities to control their populations. I think that if the power of the oil ticks-- to use Charles's turn of phrase-- were broken, that we'd see more serious populist challengers.

Furthermore, without being beholden to the Middle East's oil, we could sign a mutual defense treaty with Israel.

239 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:50:18am

Dammit, here we go again!
Look, I support Israel. I don't support their settlement expansions. I support Israel when they blow away terrorist.
This makes me anti-Israel?
WTF?

240 Kragar  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:50:22am

So for the record, this thread seems to be proof that reading and comprehension are too separate skill sets when learning a foreign language.

241 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:50:49am

re: #239 Varek Raith

Dammit, here we go again!
Look, I support Israel. I don't support their settlement expansions. I support Israel when they blow away terrorist.
This makes me anti-Israel?
WTF?

Why do you hate the jews so much?//

242 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:51:09am

re: #205 HoosierHoops

I remember you..You came here once bragging your IQ was 167.. That was you wasn't it? I don't care for your bragging about how languages you fucking know. Is that the best you got?

Heh. Don't you love it when folks come in full of bluster and then can't go from A to B to C without getting toilet paper stuck on their heel? Wouldn't it be better to lay low and overachieve than to round one's test scores up and eat dirt? But that's just me...

243 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:52:01am

re: #206 Obdicut

Alt energy could certainly help break the banks of the Arab oil states, but the US isn't exactly pursuing an energy policy to make that happen either.

Meanwhile, for whoever above claimed about there not being substantive differences between Bush and Obama - there is the fact that Bush did take a more hands off stance towards the "peace process" letting the parties determine their path rather than being more forceful - until Bush's last year in office (as a part of his legacy building - and that's a trend that goes back to most every President in office to try and leave their lasting imprint on the Arab-Israeli peace process).

244 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:52:16am

re: #221 gegenkritik

Err, no this wasn't me. And no go fuck yourself.

Well you sound just like him..Maybe a brother or something?
Look you're going to have to make better insults than that.. You have no idea what is around the corner...
BTW I have never downdinged you and have very rarely downdinged anyone.
Now chill the hell out or let's dance...

245 eastsider  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:52:55am

re: #237 gegenkritik

For obvious reasons, you won't read statements against "evil-commies" from me.


because you lack the ability to read other people's statements, understand their viewpoints, and disagree with them on principled rather than personal grounds?

Or because you're not sure who you could safely label as an "evil commie" behind their back without them actually showing up to the thread and defend themselves.

246 doubter4444  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:53:16am

re: #235 lawhawk

I think Obama is locked into the same political stance as other presidents have been for decades. He's got some wiggle room, but his move to push for a peace process so early in his term and when the Palestinians clearly have no intention of peace is stunningly naive. They've done nothing to suggest that they're ready for peace with Israel and continue along the same path they've taken for years.

The chances for a diplomatic breakthrough are slim and none - in fact the last two major breakthroughs in Palestinian-Israel relations came through back channel negotiations where Israeli and Palestinian negotiators hammered out the foundations for the PA and then for Oslo.

The problem however is that the PA is a legal and de facto fiction that no longer represents all of the territories and which is split between Gaza and West Bank for control. There is no negotiating partner there, and not realizing this is again a serious problem for US foreign policy.

It would be far better for the US to maintain a hands off policy here and say that when the Palestinians are ready for peace - Hamas, Fatah, and all the other terror groups and their splinter groups are ready for peace and to stop the incitement to violence, then we can get to the bargaining table.

Otherwise, we're still talking about a theatrical production with no positive outcome - for anyone.

Agreed, and particularly about the naivete to try to move so quickly.
My underling point is still however, that this was a set up, (that perhaps we should have seen coming), that I don't like.
If it's all kabuki, then why do it?
I've never trusted Bibi.
I see no reason to change that view with his latest stunt.

247 MJ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:53:46am

re: #234 Cineaste

No need to cede. I was just clarifying that I wasn't saying that Rahm was Israel's best & most hawkish friend but everything I've read about the Emmanuel family leads me to believe that they have very warm feelings towards Israel (and the parents are citizens).

I know Rahm's parents fairly well. They are very pro-Israel which doesn't necessarily mean Rahm shares the same belief system. Axelrod, on the other hand, has never had much contact with the Chicago pro-Israel community.

248 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:53:50am

re: #221 gegenkritik

Err, no this wasn't me. And no go fuck yourself.

Ah, the Miss Manners school of argument. Always to the point and convincing.

249 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:54:33am

re: #238 Obdicut

Hey now...that made far too much sense for a rabid Israel hater. I'm feeling woozy//

250 albusteve  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:54:46am

gotta go forage for more twigs and leaves...in the meantime


Youtube Video
251 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:55:32am

re: #244 HoosierHoops
As if I do care about one more person downdinging. You made some stupid and unbased accusation against me and recieved many updings. You can just hop on the bandwagon and make some more insults against me - everything is fine, the mindless mob will love you for this.

And no, I do not expect an apology for your wrong accusation.

252 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:55:48am

re: #246 doubter4444

Bibi is doing what he must do for Israel. Any Israeli housing construction will cause problems - especially if it's in areas where the Palestinians demand a state for themselves. There's more than a bit of brinksmanship going on here - and Abbas and Hamas have the violence at their disposal because that's their reliable fallback position. Bibi is calling them out on it.

Bear in mind that Israel's housing industry relies quite heavily on Palestinian labor. Stop the housing, and the Palestinians will complain about Israel's refusal to provide economic activities.

It's very much like playing 3-d chess.

253 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:55:50am

re: #246 doubter4444

out of curiosity, why not just go with 'doubter444'?

254 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:55:52am

Only one more indispensible massacre of Capitalists or Communists or Fascists or Christians or Heretics, and there we are - there we are in the Golden Future.
-- Aldous Leonard Huxley

255 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:55:52am

re: #195 doubter4444

Interesting that American Jews overwhelmingly are members of and vote with "that" party.
I think that Obama is pro Israel. Just not reflexively so.
I don't think that's terrible.
I will say, as a staunch supporter of Israel, I'm getting fucking sick and tired of Bibi and AIPAC.
I think this event was cooked up to embarrass Obama and the US, and for all those who revel in Obama's taking shit, I gotta tell you that I don't like seeing my country punked, by anyone.
Complain that he's not up to it or whatever, but to not be pissed that it happened is weird.
It's the "I can think my mommas fat, but you better not say so" kinda thing.

With all due respect... in this case I think Obama is making himself look back by over-reacting on what is objectively a minor issue.

I also don't know if it is just my bias/perspective coming through, but I think all the talk of hurt feelings and an affront to US dignity is really quite artificially cooked up by the media.

The bottomline that I keep coming back to is this:
After Bibi announced a settlement freeze everywhere except Jerusalem explicitly, the US spent months getting the PA to drop that particular demand and come to proximity talks. Then when initial approval for building in Jerusalem is announced, it's back to square 1 and the administration has accepted that. That is the thing I really don't get. Wasn't the whole big deal about proximity talks that "okay, the Israelis are building in Jerusalem, so you don't have to speak directly, just come and we'll talk indirectly".

That's at least the way I see it... and from that perspective, while the announcement was insensitive it wasn't a dramatic change in policy. It shouldn't have been that surprising. It should not be accepted as a valid reason for the PA to back out of talks.

I really want to understand why this view isn't more widely held, if anyone can explain.

256 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:55:56am

re: #54 gegenkritik

Is that a flounce?

257 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:56:29am

re: #248 Cato the Elder

Ah, the Miss Manners school of argument. Always to the point and convincing.

Although I find the new avatar hilarious, myself...

258 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:56:29am

re: #240 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

So for the record, this thread seems to be proof that reading and comprehension are too separate skill sets when learning a foreign language.

Or a native language. :-)

259 bratwurst  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:56:47am

re: #232 gegenkritik

Scheiß Schlacke, Führer's Lieblingsclub, im Logo. Passt ja wie Arsch auf Eimer.

Verpiss dich, Arschloch.

260 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:57:04am

re: #162 jaunte

Would Egypt annex Gaza? Seems like too much trouble.

If all the Gazans moved out of Gaza, Egypt might be persuaded to accept it back.

With the Gazans in it, no.

261 richard12  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:57:07am

re: #184 Aceofwhat?

Yea, I really dig it. Been back here since 2002. There's no place like Tel Aviv. Its hip, its multicultural, its charming, its packed with bars, cafes and resturants, goregous young women, and best of all, its on the beach!

Of course its got its down side too, just packed my war bag. Would hate to have to go to the shelter at 3:00 in the morning without snacks or warm clothes. And with the Obama administration sending a new ambassador to Syria and making agreements under the table with Mahmud in Tehran, its become clear that there's no reason to wait much longer. At least, that's my take on it.

262 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:57:26am

re: #252 lawhawk

Bibi is doing what he must do for Israel. Any Israeli housing construction will cause problems - especially if it's in areas where the Palestinians demand a state for themselves. There's more than a bit of brinksmanship going on here - and Abbas and Hamas have the violence at their disposal because that's their reliable fallback position. Bibi is calling them out on it.

Bear in mind that Israel's housing industry relies quite heavily on Palestinian labor. Stop the housing, and the Palestinians will complain about Israel's refusal to provide economic activities.

It's very much like playing 3-d chess.

I'm also wondering if Bibi is feeling a little ashamed over Hebron and by building here, makes up for his horrid mistakes there. But hey, I'm ok with that.

263 simoom  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:57:29am

re: #160 richard12

Not only that, but with General Petraus, Roger Cohen at the New York Times, and other Obama administration officials and supporters now trying to say that Israel's actions can affect American soldiers lives in places like Afganistan, they have bought the Arab line about Israel.

General Petraeus' prepared statement to the Senate Armed Services Committee today:
Statement of General David H. Petraeus, U.S. Army Commander, U.S. Central Command, Before the Senate Armed Services Committe, On the posture of U.S. Central Command, 16 Mar 2010 (PDF)

Cross-cutting Challenges to Security and Stability

While this statement will describe in greater detail the dynamics and challenges in the sub-regions of the AOR (CENTCOM Area of Responsibility), there are a number of cross-cutting issues that serve as major drivers of instability, inter-state tensions, and conflict. These factors can serve as root causes of instability or as obstacles to security.


* Insufficient progress toward a comprehensive Middle East peace. The enduring hostilities between Israel and some of its neighbors present distinct challenges to our ability to advance our interests in the AOR. Israeli-Palestinian tensions often flare into violence and large-scale armed confrontations. The conflict foments anti-American sentiment, due to a perception of U.S. favoritism for Israel. Arab anger over the Palestinian question limits the strength and depth of U.S. partnerships with governments and peoples in the AOR and weakens the legitimacy of moderate regimes in the Arab world. Meanwhile, al-Qaeda and other militant groups exploit that anger to mobilize support. The conflict also gives Iran influence in the Arab world through its clients, Lebanese Hizballah and Hamas.
264 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:59:02am

Hi all. Wow. What an active thread.

I disagree about Islam being 'evil'. It is important to discern between radical Islam and the other flavors.

265 Kragar  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:59:06am

re: #258 Silvergirl

Or a native language. :-)

You spoiled my cunning trap!

266 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:59:17am

re: #162 jaunte

Would Egypt annex Gaza? Seems like too much trouble.

Never. Nobody will take them. Nobody wants them and what other reason would there by to have that bit of land?

267 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:00:02pm

re: #265 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You spoiled my cunning trap!

You spider, you!

268 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:00:02pm

re: #263 simoom

I tore the good general to shreds on that yesterday.

269 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:01:17pm

re: #251 gegenkritik

You made some stupid and unbased accusation


Gee, just like you did against me and others. What, exactly, makes me anti-Israel?

270 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:01:30pm

re: #186 Joo-LiZ

Just a clarification -- I support building in JERUSALEM whole heartedly. Even there, I acknowledge that some plans are just plain stupid and can be easily avoided provocation. This case with Ramat Shlomo isn't one of those times though.

I'm much less comfortable with settlements in the West Bank.

Yeah. The issue with breaking new ground in the West Bank is that, at some point in the forseeable future, the land there might change hands. (I know some people living there who would smack me for saying that.)

At this point we end up with the Gaza situation all over again, with the army having to pull people out of established communities who don't want to go.

But Ramat Shlomo is next door to French Hill, forgoodnessakes.

271 eastsider  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:01:39pm

re: #251 gegenkritik

As if I do care about one more person downdinging. You made some stupid and unbased accusation against me and recieved many updings. You can just hop on the bandwagon and make some more insults against me - everything is fine, the mindless mob will love you for this.

And no, I do not expect an apology for your wrong accusation.

dude. Here's the deal. There are a few unwritten rules here which I will attempt to write down:

1) Play nice. don't directly insult other people
2) Make persuasive arguments with evidence
3) Be okay with people disagreeing with you. People are going to do this all the time. When it happens it doesn't mean you are being censored, that they don't like you, or that its mob rule. It means you're not doing a good enough job arguing.
4) Don't expect a pity party after you pee in the pool

You broke 1, 2, and 3.

272 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:01:57pm

re: #77 Cato the Elder

I am openly pro-Israel.

Let the downdings begin.

If they don't, your argument is shot to shit.

I remember a certain flounced lizard who kept screaming that Cato is an Anti-Semite who should be banned!

/no names

273 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:02:18pm

re: #259 bratwurst

Verpiss dich, Arschloch.

Manch armer Teufel muss durch's Arschloch pissen, wegen fehlenden männlichen Glieds.

274 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:03:01pm

re: #264 Stuart Leviton

Hi all. Wow. What an active thread.

I disagree about Islam being 'evil'. It is important to discern between radical Islam and the other flavors.

That being said -- I think the basis for the radical "flavour" is there.

It's just that more reasonable muslims... well, they are a lot more reasonable.

Interesting side note, I recently heard about a new moderate muslim, "counter-extremist" think tank in the UK. They are called the Quilliam Foundation, might be worth keeping an eye on.

275 Kragar  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:03:53pm

re: #273 Cato the Elder

Manch armer Teufel muss durch's Arschloch pissen, wegen fehlenden männlichen Glieds.

I have no idea what that means, so I'll just have to assume that your summoning demons.

276 doubter4444  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:04:00pm

re: #253 Aceofwhat?

out of curiosity, why not just go with 'doubter444'?

I have a bad twitch.

277 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:04:22pm

re: #271 eastsider

dude. Here's the deal. There are a few unwritten rules here which I will attempt to write down:

1) Play nice. don't directly insult other people
2) Make persuasive arguments with evidence
3) Be okay with people disagreeing with you. People are going to do this all the time. When it happens it doesn't mean you are being censored, that they don't like you, or that its mob rule. It means you're not doing a good enough job arguing.
4) Don't expect a pity party after you pee in the pool

You broke 1, 2, and 3.

Nice review for all of us, not just our, uh, guests.

278 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:04:31pm

re: #259 bratwurst

Is this you in this movie about Schlacke?

279 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:04:46pm

re: #261 richard12

Yea, I really dig it. Been back here since 2002. There's no place like Tel Aviv. Its hip, its multicultural, its charming, its packed with bars, cafes and resturants, goregous young women, and best of all, its on the beach!

Of course its got its down side too, just packed my war bag. Would hate to have to go to the shelter at 3:00 in the morning without snacks or warm clothes. And with the Obama administration sending a new ambassador to Syria and making agreements under the table with Mahmud in Tehran, its become clear that there's no reason to wait much longer. At least, that's my take on it.

good on you-

280 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:05:23pm

re: #202 Silvergirl

Translate it for us. All I guessed at is that something is for the European community?

'The line to the left is for citizens of the EU."

281 Neutral President  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:05:39pm

re: #275 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I have no idea what that means, so I'll just have to assume that your summoning demons.


Basically means: "Some poor devil must piss through his asshole because he has no penis."

282 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:05:48pm

re: #270 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah. The issue with breaking new ground in the West Bank is that, at some point in the forseeable future, the land there might change hands. (I know some people living there who would smack me for saying that.)

At this point we end up with the Gaza situation all over again, with the army having to pull people out of established communities who don't want to go.

But Ramat Shlomo is next door to French Hill, forgoodnessakes.

And to be clear (and as I said in yesterday's thread), I think Ramat Shlomo is not a problem and will be part of Israel in a land swap in any reasonable two state solution. The West Bank settlers, largely knit-cap wearing Americans from Borough Park, Brooklyn are a big problem. They spit on my friends in the Army who are sent there to protect them. They pick fights with the Palestinians. They drain Israel's treasury. They were the ones who supported Rabin's assassin.

283 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:06:34pm

re: #245 eastsider
You didn't get it, because in your narrow-minded little world, everyone who is pro-Israel and critizises Islam, has to be a radical republican christian fundamentalist.

284 Kragar  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:06:45pm

re: #281 ArchangelMichael

Basically means: "Some poor devil must piss through his asshole because he has no penis."

I was more comfortable thinking about the demons.

285 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:06:51pm

re: #207 gegenkritik

For a statement like this ( "Islam is the chief danger to Israel. It is written in the Koran" ) you would be normally declared as an anti-muslim-racist and the mob would turn on you. The only thing that is saving right now, is that you used this as an argument against me (and everyone who says something against me in this thread is right and recieves updings). But don't be fooled: If you look at Obdicuts reaction to your statement, you can guess what hell would break loose if made such anti-Islam-post in other context than using it as an argument against me.

Oh, WHINE AND MOAN. C'mon, I disagree with that part myself, but trust me, it gets said here plenty. And we discuss it.

You just can't accept that your jerky attitude is upsetting people, can you?

286 bratwurst  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:06:54pm

re: #273 Cato the Elder

Manch armer Teufel muss durch's Arschloch pissen, wegen fehlenden männlichen Glieds.

Gut gemacht! I declare you qualified to be a taxi driver in the Ruhrgebiet! LOL

287 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:07:18pm

re: #263 simoom

The other thing I didn't really get into when Petraeus talks about how our relationship with Israel is straining the work our soldiers are doing in the Arab world, is that Israel has always been a player in this part of the world. It's not always ABOUT Israel, but Israel swirls around many decisions/issues. Since when has that not been true? Why now are they making a big fuss about it?

The General should be asking why the Saudis aren't helping to ease the tensions in the area. Why hasn't he asked that question? We're such good buds now ain't we?

288 simoom  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:07:29pm

re: #268 marjoriemoon

I tore the good general to shreds on that yesterday.

I think I read that post. It was in response to the Mark Perry Foreign Policy article on on the mid-January Pentagon briefing, right?

289 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:07:32pm

re: #282 Cineaste

And to be clear (and as I said in yesterday's thread), I think Ramat Shlomo is not a problem and will be part of Israel in a land swap in any reasonable two state solution. The West Bank settlers, largely knit-cap wearing Americans from Borough Park, Brooklyn are a big problem. They spit on my friends in the Army who are sent there to protect them. They pick fights with the Palestinians. They drain Israel's treasury. They were the ones who supported Rabin's assassin.

Agreed. Those are DEFINITELY the trouble people.

Not all the settlements host those types though. Even the ones in the West Bank.

That is a distinction which never gets made.

But they are definitely there, and definitely a problem.

290 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:07:46pm

re: #283 gegenkritik
FAIL
I'm an atheist who supports Israel and criticizes radical Islam.

291 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:07:58pm

re: #280 SanFranciscoZionist

'The line to the left is for citizens of the EU."

Nailed it!

(i love how the latin word for left is "sinister". What more PROOF do you lefties need that you are the fru-its of the dey-vil???)

//

292 Kragar  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:08:19pm

re: #283 gegenkritik

You didn't get it, because in your narrow-minded little world, everyone who is pro-Israel and critizises Islam, has to be a radical republican christian fundamentalist.

Downding just because I think you are a total and utter douchebag.

293 doubter4444  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:09:07pm

re: #255 Joo-LiZ

Understood, and I'm not really that worked up myself, about it, and I do think it was played poorly on the Admins part.
I'm more pissed at the crowing over it being Obama's personal failure, and the naked revulsion that would rather see him go down even if it meant we fail too, as a nation.

I agree with Lawhawk, it's 3D chess, and it'll not finish anytime soon.
I still don't like Bibi, however, and I've met him.
He's a bully, and I detest bullies.

294 Feline Fearless Leader  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:09:11pm

re: #283 gegenkritik

Nice broad tar-brush you use there. That is what is getting you down-dings and large scale criticism. No nuance, no apparent ability to debate a subject in a reasonable manner.

I'd rather be able to converse effectively in one language than come across as an asshole in ten.

295 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:09:41pm

re: #251 gegenkritik

As if I do care about one more person downdinging. You made some stupid and unbased accusation against me and recieved many updings. You can just hop on the bandwagon and make some more insults against me - everything is fine, the mindless mob will love you for this.

And no, I do not expect an apology for your wrong accusation.

It was a baseless accusation again you.. Just like what you made against other posters here.. How did it feel Biatch?

296 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:09:44pm

re: #283 gegenkritik

You didn't get it, because in your narrow-minded little world, everyone who is pro-Israel and critizises Islam, has to be a radical republican christian fundamentalist.

Perhaps your own view of the world sees commie pinkos with just as little effort.

297 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:10:23pm

re: #220 RogueOne

"almost the same", "basically the same" and you just said "not much different" meaning you all understand there is a difference but you don't want to have to admit to it. You cannot deny that the dem party from Pres. Carter on down has been the driving force in US politics in pushing the Israelis to give up whatever they had to, minus the whole "right of return" thing, in exchange for what I consider a phony peace deal.

It all comes down to an easy question "who has our back?". The trust level the Israeli government had with Bush is much higher than our current president for obvious reasons.

In My Opinion™(Obdi-productions Lmtd.) of course.

Like I've said, I think it's mostly BS. I think Bush had a reputation for standing by Israel he did little to earn, and I think Obama came in with a 'prove it to us' that he did NOT earn.

This is not to criticize or praise either administration, but to say that to my eye, U.S. policy remains consistent in this area.

298 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:10:37pm

re: #82 Joo-LiZ

Somewhat OT:

This is disgusting.

Pictures are posted at the link (Ha'aretz)

Z0MFG, that's a Doofus of the Day

299 richard12  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:10:42pm

re: #263 simoom

Thanks for sharing but you're really telling me nothing new.

By Petraus stating "The conflict foments anti-American sentiment, due to a perception of U.S. favoritism for Israel. Arab anger over the Palestinian question limits the strength and depth of U.S. partnerships with governments and peoples in the AOR and weakens the legitimacy of moderate regimes in the Arab world. "

He's just reinforcing exactly what the Arabs have been saying all along, and the reason why they applied the boycott. Its the same excuse Bin Laden gives for attacking America, and its an excuse used again and again. Of course as well all know, its a lie. Fundamentalist Islam hates anything that isn't Islam, the precept of Da'ar Al Islam states that whatever isn' Da'ar Al Islam (Islam) is Da'ar Al Harb, or dominion of war - in the process of becoming Islam through war.

And of course, America has been supporting dictators in these countries for decades, another source of their hatred. Israel is an abomination to them. And making peace won't change a thing. It won't happen anyway as we see today the Palestinians completely refuse to even sit down to negotiations, with the backing of Barack Obama, who only blames Israel.

So when Petraus makes a connection between Israel and American casualties at war, even indirectly, he's basically supporting exactly what the Arabs and Muslims have been selling for decades. You only need to read Rodger Cohen's editorial in the New York Times today to see that.

300 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:10:47pm

re: #296 Silvergirl

Perhaps your own view of the world sees commie pinkos with just as little effort.

Maybe he's got new Progressive glasses, like Cato. They make everything look pink. /

301 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:10:58pm

re: #293 doubter4444

Understood, and I'm not really that worked up myself, about it, and I do think it was played poorly on the Admins part.
I'm more pissed at the crowing over it being Obama's personal failure, and the naked revulsion that would rather see him go down even if it meant we fail too, as a nation.

I agree with Lawhawk, it's 3D chess, and it'll not finish anytime soon.
I still don't like Bibi, however, and I've met him.
He's a bully, and I detest bullies.

Interesting... do you have an example? I've never met the men. But I have heard him speak, and as most people acknowledge, he is quite the orator.

302 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:11:12pm

re: #301 Joo-LiZ

Interesting... do you have an example? I've never met the men. But I have heard him speak, and as most people acknowledge, he is quite the orator.

man** PIMF

303 doubter4444  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:12:01pm

re: #270 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah. The issue with breaking new ground in the West Bank is that, at some point in the forseeable future, the land there might change hands. (I know some people living there who would smack me for saying that.)

At this point we end up with the Gaza situation all over again, with the army having to pull people out of established communities who don't want to go.

But Ramat Shlomo is next door to French Hill, forgoodnessakes.

Agreed in this too, I don't have a big problem with building in Jerusalem, but with outlying settlements, I do.

304 bratwurst  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:12:31pm

re: #297 SanFranciscoZionist

This is not to criticize or praise either administration, but to say that to my eye, U.S. policy remains consistent in this area.

That is all I have been trying to say...but I wound up on the "enemies of the Jewish State" list anyway!

305 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:12:34pm

re: #231 Cato the Elder

OK, without reference to you:

"Islam is the chief danger to Israel. It is written in the Koran."

I said that, folks. Let the mobbing begin.

I don't think the Koran is necessarily the key issue here. Rephrase that as: 'Aggressive Political Islam is the chief danger to Israel, especially when supported by politically correct nudniks abroad' and I'm on your page.

306 eastsider  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:12:41pm

re: #283 gegenkritik

You didn't get it, because in your narrow-minded little world, everyone who is pro-Israel and critizises Islam, has to be a radical republican christian fundamentalist.

not so much.

I believe that lumping people into pre-conceived stereotypes is not only wrong, its dangerous. When you make groups of people "others" and assume you understand their motivations and beliefs it leads to a lack of engagement at least and actioned prejudice/violence on the extreme.

I don't like going tit for tat with insults, but it seems that you're the one who is "narrow minded" and unable to put shades of gray on multiple terms in your own statement. There are degrees of "pro Israel." You can be for the state but against its policies, or for a single state, or for a two state solution. Any of those could be termed "pro-Israel." Same story for criticizing Islam.

If you had real, actual proof of people being demonized for intelligently holding a position on Israeli policy, or even its existence, then I might give you more credit. But you just came in here throwing around baseless accusations. Poor form.

307 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:13:03pm

re: #304 bratwurst

That is all I have been trying to say...but I wound up on the "enemies of the Jewish State" list anyway!

it's a big-tent club//

308 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:13:38pm

re: #288 simoom

I think I read that post. It was in response to the Mark Perry Foreign Policy article on on the mid-January Pentagon briefing, right?

Here. [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

We are NOT incapable of standing up to Israel. Unfortunately (actually) this week proves how completely capable we are.

What we are incapable of doing is standing up to the Arabs. That the General would say what he said is inexcusable.

309 doubter4444  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:13:52pm

re: #302 Joo-LiZ

man** PIMF

I do, gotta run now (the kid is sick).
I'll try to get back later.

310 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:13:58pm

re: #232 gegenkritik

Scheiß Schlacke, Führer's Lieblingsclub, im Logo. Passt ja wie Arsch auf Eimer.

Gay in drayrd arein.

311 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:14:11pm

I'm going to have to stick up for General Petraeus. I don't think the report says anything we don't already know, the average middle-eastern Muslim doesn't view the US as an honest broker of peace when it comes to Israel. I think that's a "no shit" statement.

312 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:14:18pm

re: #233 Aceofwhat?

"the line to the left is for the citizens of the European community"

(SFZ - how'd i do?)

Perfect!

313 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:15:21pm

Good gravy, I must be an enemy of the entire planet for disagreeing with its various countrie's policies...

*Please, ignore the Death Star on the dark side of your planet's moon.*

314 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:15:34pm

re: #239 Varek Raith

Dammit, here we go again!
Look, I support Israel. I don't support their settlement expansions. I support Israel when they blow away terrorist.
This makes me anti-Israel?
WTF?

Well, I'll bicker with you about what 'settlement expansion' means, but so far I haven't started screaming or nothing.

315 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:16:16pm

re: #295 HoosierHoops

You simply lied about me.

My acusations were substantiated, as I do not consider people as pro-Israel, who say that Israelis have no right to build houses, that Islam is peace, that Obama is absolutely pro-Israel and so on.

That's a huge difference, you see.

316 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:17:04pm

re: #314 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, I'll bicker with you about what 'settlement expansion' means, but so far I haven't started screaming or nothing.

I should've clarified. I don't like the settlement expansions in the West Bank. In Jerusalem, I don't know. Not enough info on my part to make an informed opinion.

317 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:17:40pm

Speaking of violence, the Palestinians are at it again. Israel rededicated the Hurva Synagogue in the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem (which was obliterated by the Jordanians in 1948 and which Israel did not regain control of until 1967. The Israelis built a soaring arch to duplicate one of the architectural features of the destroyed shul, and they finally rebuilt it.

Of course, the Palestinians started a rumor that this was the first step to destroying the al Aqsa mosque and Dome of the Rock to prepare for the construction of a new Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount.

Much violence ensued.

The US envoy George Mitchell cancelled his trip indefinitely. The US hasn't exactly spoken out against the rumors, letting them continue to percolate among the Arab populations that are regularly plied with such blatherings until they can no longer discern between fact and fantasy.

Oh, and the violence isn't being blamed on the rumors but on Israel's proposed housing projects even though the violence is directly attributed to the rumors.

And just because Hamas and Islamic Jihad wanted in on the action, they fired a kassam from Gaza into Israel.

318 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:17:58pm

re: #311 RogueOne

I'm going to have to stick up for General Petraeus. I don't think the report says anything we don't already know, the average middle-eastern Muslim doesn't view the US as an honest broker of peace when it comes to Israel. I think that's a "no shit" statement.

How can you say that? That we are afraid to stand up to Israel? Even George Bush disagreed with Sharon.

Petraeus is a piece of shit. I'm sorry to say. I can't believe that a leader of our armed forces would not just say such nonsense, but have a freakin committee, with a powerpoint presentation yet! to show just how horrible our relationship with Israel is making it for his soldiers. What a load of crap.

WE DON'T STAND UP TO THE ARABS. WE ALWAYS STAND UP TO ISRAEL even when we should keep our big mouths shut. HELLO??

319 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:18:00pm

re: #315 gegenkritik

Answer my question, then, with specifics.

What, exactly, make me anti-Israel.

320 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:18:01pm

re: #205 HoosierHoops

I remember you..You came here once bragging your IQ was 167.. That was you wasn't it? I don't care for your bragging about how languages you fucking know. Is that the best you got?

That wasn't gegenkritik, that was charlyne sartre, who also played 3D chess and thought that the solution to all the problems in the world would be to annihilate testosterone.

321 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:18:20pm

re: #275 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I have no idea what that means, so I'll just have to assume that your summoning demons.

There is something about the devil in there.

322 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:18:41pm

re: #313 Varek Raith

Just nuke it from orbit.. that's the only way to be sure. /Hicks

323 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:18:58pm

re: #306 eastsider

There are degrees of "pro Israel."


There are only degrees of how open the hostility against Israel is. Solidarity with Israel is unconditional or it is not.

324 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:18:58pm

Ok. I have to go. I will return at another date to taunt you a second time :)

325 cgn38navy  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:19:45pm

re: #261 richard12

I've been there a few times, also. The women? Nice. Must be something in the water.

326 eastsider  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:19:53pm

re: #315 gegenkritik

You simply lied about me.

My acusations were substantiated, as I do not consider people as pro-Israel, who say that Israelis have no right to build houses, that Islam is peace, that Obama is absolutely pro-Israel and so on.

That's a huge difference, you see.

okay now we're getting somewhere. You've defined a null hypothesis for us to engage with.

I disagree, I think you can be pro-Israel and simultaneously disagree with house builds, think Islam has elements of peaceful activity, and that Obama has upheld American relations with Israel.

327 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:19:56pm

For every two Jews, there are three opinions.
-- David ben Gurion

328 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:20:50pm

re: #327 The Sanity Inspector

For every two Jews, there are three opinions.
-- David ben Gurion

Only 3?

329 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:21:15pm

re: #323 gegenkritik

Using your "logic";
Wow, so I'm anti-American if I don't unconditionally support its policies...
:/

330 eastsider  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:21:32pm

re: #323 gegenkritik

There are only degrees of how open the hostility against Israel is. Solidarity with Israel is unconditional or it is not.

Yes! See now you're defining a position. And someone down-dinged you. That's direct evidence of a downding for a principled position. Which took 323 posts to get to.

FWIW, I think you're incorrect, and that that kind of "with us or against us" attitude propagates violence.

331 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:21:35pm

re: #283 gegenkritik

You didn't get it, because in your narrow-minded little world, everyone who is pro-Israel and critizises Islam, has to be a radical republican christian fundamentalist.

Gegenkritik, for your own sake 'chill out', please do. You seem to be so full of pain. Something surprising about this community is that in general you will be able to find friends here who will listen to you, engage in intelligent conversation and even befriend you. Give them a chance. But most of all, please, do give yourself a chance.

I write as a survivor of extreme abuse. Perhaps I am projecting the hell that dwells within me onto you. If so, accept my apologies for my error. I have known and witnessed too many who are stuck in hell. One who murdered a bunch of school children in Wilmette still gives me nightmares. Everyone saw. Everyone knew for decades. But no-one helped.

Please, my friend, I know you have peace within yourself. Please, find it and make it grow. If you want, somehow I will try to help you from the outside -- although my life remains rather limited and so I am probably not the best resource.

Good luck. Okay? I hope so for the sake of your own happiness. Mazel!

332 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:22:32pm

re: #318 marjoriemoon

How can you say that? That we are afraid to stand up to Israel? Even George Bush disagreed with Sharon.

Petraeus is a piece of shit. I'm sorry to say. I can't believe that a leader of our armed forces would not just say such nonsense, but have a freakin committee, with a powerpoint presentation yet! to show just how horrible our relationship with Israel is making it for his soldiers. What a load of crap.

WE DON'T STAND UP TO THE ARABS. WE ALWAYS STAND UP TO ISRAEL even when we should keep our big mouths shut. HELLO??

Because 75% of the time (90% if it's a repub admin) we generally take the side of Israel, and rightly so. I defy anyone to spend 1 week in SA and try to find 20 Saudi citizens who do not blame the jews for the entirety of the evil in the world. Unless the US is willing to throw israel under the bus we're always going to be seen as two-faced jew-loving buttholes by the vast majority of the muslim world. It's just a reality that I don't think we can do anything to change.

333 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:22:46pm

re: #136 cgn38navy

I've been posting how LGF has been moving left for some time. Doesn't mean it sucks. I enjoy it tremendously and still find it a great place to get factual and very informative info. I just don't like most of you commie pinko hippies.

I have been posing on LGF since January and I have been trying to keep up with the thoughts and sentiments of the major player's here and I don't see much of the "left" coming out. I see a centrist point of view for the most part. True I haven't done much posting and true I'm basically a NOOB but I think you're a bit off base with that statement.

334 simoom  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:23:34pm

re: #287 marjoriemoon

The other thing I didn't really get into when Petraeus talks about how our relationship with Israel is straining the work our soldiers are doing in the Arab world, is that Israel has always been a player in this part of the world. It's not always ABOUT Israel, but Israel swirls around many decisions/issues. Since when has that not been true? Why now are they making a big fuss about it?

I think what Gen. Patraeus is communicating is that our posture in the Middle East peace process, the perception that we're far from impartial negotiators, and that we're not making any real progress, damages our credibility/relationships with governments we now depend on (intelligence sharing, drone strike permissions, crackdowns on extremists, deployments, security force training, etc) to effectively prosecute the War on Terror.

335 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:23:41pm

re: #333 Dragon_Lady

I have been posing on LGF since January and I have been trying to keep up with the thoughts and sentiments of the major player's here and I don't see much of the "left" coming out. I see a centrist point of view for the most part. True I haven't done much posting and true I'm basically a NOOB but I think you're a bit off base with that statement.

Typo of the week!

I first thought you had some revelation that you weren't you had seemed to be.

336 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:23:57pm

re: #323 gegenkritik

There are only degrees of how open the hostility against Israel is. Solidarity with Israel is unconditional or it is not.

Oh baloney.. I don't agree on many policies of the United States...I love America and Israel..But I get to vote the bums out.
I have solidarity with both America and Israel...May they both live forever.

337 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:24:32pm

re: #336 HoosierHoops

Oh baloney.. I don't agree on many policies of the United States...I love America and Israel..But I get to vote the bums out.
I have solidarity with both America and Israel...May they both live forever.

Bingo!

338 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:24:49pm

re: #327 The Sanity Inspector

For every two Jews, there are three opinions.
-- David ben Gurion


I like.

Israel has five national sports - soccer, tennis, arguing, complaining and worrying
- Barry Rubin

339 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:24:52pm

re: #335 EmmmieG

Typo of the week!

I first thought you had some revelation that you weren't you had seemed to be.

???

340 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:25:43pm

re: #315 gegenkritik

You simply lied about me.

My acusations were substantiated, as I do not consider people as pro-Israel, who say that Israelis have no right to build houses, that Islam is peace, that Obama is absolutely pro-Israel and so on.

That's a huge difference, you see.

The problem is that you don't seem to be able to read at a fourth-grade level.

You called me an architect of the Pogroms despite the fact that I said none of those things.

----

"You know, there's a word for people who think everyone is out to get them..."

"Yes! Perceptive!"

-- Woody Allen

341 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:26:16pm

re: #319 Varek Raith

Answer my question, then, with specifics.

What, exactly, make me anti-Israel.

He would have to read what you wrote to answer that question.

342 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:26:36pm

BBL, need some coffee...
Deads, 'till I gets me coffee, matey!

343 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:26:38pm

re: #338 Stuart Leviton

Haven't seen that one before -- I like!

344 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:26:44pm

re: #334 simoom

And that posture ignores the culpability of some of these regimes in perpetuating the conflict to avoid having to take responsibility for the sorry state of affairs in their own countries.

Israel is an anathema to the Arab states and it's a ritual punching bag for all that ails them. Bad economy in Saudi Arabia or Iran? Blame Israel. Etc.

The mindset has hardened over the past 60+ years, and saying that the US has to act in a more impartial manner towards Israel ignores that the Arabs are refusing to take responsibility for their own actions and their own plight.

That has to change.

345 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:26:56pm

re: #323 gegenkritik

There are only degrees of how open the hostility against Israel is. Solidarity with Israel is unconditional or it is not.

And you are the sole arbiter....

meh.

346 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:27:02pm

re: #330 eastsider

FWIW, I think you're incorrect, and that that kind of "with us or against us" attitude propagates violence.


Exactly this was the sentence that was used against George W. Bush countless times in european statements against the USA.

347 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:27:10pm

re: #287 marjoriemoon

The other thing I didn't really get into when Petraeus talks about how our relationship with Israel is straining the work our soldiers are doing in the Arab world, is that Israel has always been a player in this part of the world. It's not always ABOUT Israel, but Israel swirls around many decisions/issues. Since when has that not been true? Why now are they making a big fuss about it?

The General should be asking why the Saudis aren't helping to ease the tensions in the area. Why hasn't he asked that question? We're such good buds now ain't we?

Why aren't they? It's a perfect question for him to ask. We need someone with power and influence to ask it.

348 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:27:51pm

I guess I stumbled onto a very hot thread. Sorry if I stepped on some toes. I'll go back to my upding fest and not enter this one. Moving up to the next one.

349 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:28:10pm

re: #344 lawhawk

And that posture ignores the culpability of some of these regimes in perpetuating the conflict to avoid having to take responsibility for the sorry state of affairs in their own countries.

Israel is an anathema to the Arab states and it's a ritual punching bag for all that ails them. Bad economy in Saudi Arabia or Iran? Blame Israel. Etc.

The mindset has hardened over the past 60+ years, and saying that the US has to act in a more impartial manner towards Israel ignores that the Arabs are refusing to take responsibility for their own actions and their own plight.

That has to change.

THANK YOU!

That's what I have been saying the last couple days about the Petraeus thing.

Very well put.

350 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:30:06pm

Jewish Federations Statement

Quite a good one. Agrees with my line of thought on this matter.

Long though.

351 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:30:14pm

Blessings to you gegenkritik. You got the smarts. And you got the heart. I kind of figure that in the future you will produce something important and of great value.

352 Samson  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:30:15pm

re: #43 Obdicut

As already pointed out by others, he has not visited Israel since becoming President. This has great (negative) symbolic value, insofar as he has made a point of visiting other middle eastern countries and gave a much heralded but factually inaccurate speech in Cairo. Considering that his approval rating among Jewish Israelis hovers around 4%, it's not hard to see why he is not anxious to go.

353 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:31:51pm

re: #335 EmmmieG

Typo of the week!

I first thought you had some revelation that you weren't you had seemed to be.

I was wondering about that posing Dragon_Lady's been doing. A whole new calendar coming out?

354 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:31:56pm

re: #315 gegenkritik

You simply lied about me.

My acusations were substantiated, as I do not consider people as pro-Israel, who say that Israelis have no right to build houses, that Islam is peace, that Obama is absolutely pro-Israel and so on.

That's a huge difference, you see.

In your world, is there any such thing as a peaceful Muslim? Is there any such thing as a 'good' Muslim? Are Muslim's inherently incapable of advocating peace?

I'm genuinely interested in how you see the world on this one.

355 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:32:07pm

I didn't see anywhere in the petraeus briefing that the US has to do anything to change the perception just that the perception is a problem for CENTCOM. Like I said, unless I'm mis-reading, it seems to me that it's just a statement of reality.

356 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:33:23pm

re: #352 Samson

As already pointed out by others, he has not visited Israel since becoming President. This has great (negative) symbolic value, insofar as he has made a point of visiting other middle eastern countries and gave a much heralded but factually inaccurate speech in Cairo. Considering that his approval rating among Jewish Israelis hovers around 4%, it's not hard to see why he is not anxious to go.

Sometimes you have to do the hard stuff. Not all crowds are adoring.

357 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:33:27pm

re: #333 Dragon_Lady

I have been posing posting on LGF since January and I have been trying to keep up with the thoughts and sentiments of the major player's here and I don't see much of the "left" coming out. I see a centrist point of view for the most part. True I haven't done much posting and true I'm basically a NOOB but I think you're a bit off base with that statement.

PIMF! Oooops!

358 blueraven  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:33:32pm

re: #318 marjoriemoon

How can you say that? That we are afraid to stand up to Israel? Even George Bush disagreed with Sharon.

Petraeus is a piece of shit. I'm sorry to say. I can't believe that a leader of our armed forces would not just say such nonsense, but have a freakin committee, with a powerpoint presentation yet! to show just how horrible our relationship with Israel is making it for his soldiers. What a load of crap.

WE DON'T STAND UP TO THE ARABS. WE ALWAYS STAND UP TO ISRAEL even when we should keep our big mouths shut. HELLO??

So all of a sudden, Petraeus is a piece of shit because you disagree with him on this issue?

359 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:33:55pm

re: #355 RogueOne

I didn't see anywhere in the petraeus briefing that the US has to do anything to change the perception just that the perception is a problem for CENTCOM. Like I said, unless I'm mis-reading, it seems to me that it's just a statement of reality.

I see what you're saying, but I think it is fairly obvious how the administration is taking that news.

He said the same thing in January, and I have read accounts that this is partially fuelling the current dressing down.

360 Ilan toren  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:34:30pm

James Baaker was more believable and consistent when he said 'fuck the Jews'. Clinton can't undo the damage she has done by reading platitudes on the teleprompter. You'd have to be an idiot to believe this 'unshakeable bond' crap when it comes out of this administration.

Then again it is in no way unexpected.

361 webevintage  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:34:39pm

re: #352 Samson

As already pointed out by others, he has not visited Israel since becoming President. This has great (negative) symbolic value, insofar as he has made a point of visiting other middle eastern countries and gave a much heralded but factually inaccurate speech in Cairo. Considering that his approval rating among Jewish Israelis hovers around 4%, it's not hard to see why he is not anxious to go.

ZOMG!
That bastard!
He's been President for almost a year and a half and has still not visited Israel?
Wow he must really hate that country!
/

362 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:35:07pm

re: #359 Joo-LiZ

I see what you're saying, but I think it is fairly obvious how the administration is taking that news.

He said the same thing in January, and I have read accounts that this is partially fuelling the current dressing down.

That wouldn't surprise me.

363 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:35:40pm

re: #361 webevintage

ZOMG!
That bastard!
He's been President for almost a year and a half and has still not visited Israel?
Wow he must really hate that country!
/

As facetious as you may be... it is a valid criticism. There have been a couple times he was in the area and could have visited (previous Presidents would have), and he explicitly did not.

364 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:35:48pm

re: #336 HoosierHoops

Even though anti-americanism and anti-semitism are like brothers, the history of resentments against USA and Israel/Jews is very different. Israel is the only hideaway for people who would otherwise be slaughtered, as they are found guilty of being behind capitalism and communism and many other things. There's no similiar threat to the USA, there was no Holocaust against Americans and finally: the USA are a world-power with the most powerful army ever seen. Israel, on the other hand, is a very small island in an ocean of barbarism.

365 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:36:03pm

re: #354 Cineaste

In your world, is there any such thing as a peaceful Muslim? Is there any such thing as a 'good' Muslim? Are Muslim's inherently incapable of advocating peace?

I'm genuinely interested in how you see the world on this one.

Just taking a sec to applaud the fact that you're writing posts that are infinitely more interesting to read than the "go back under your bridge" variety. You're doing this in spite of the fact that you were among those listed in his post as the bad guys.

I admire.

366 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:36:44pm

re: #360 Ilan toren

James Baaker was more believable and consistent when he said 'fuck the Jews'. Clinton can't undo the damage she has done by reading platitudes on the teleprompter. You'd have to be an idiot to believe this 'unshakeable bond' crap when it comes out of this administration.

Then again it is in no way unexpected.

LOUD NOISES!!!

367 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:37:04pm

re: #299 richard12


So when Petraus makes a connection between Israel and American casualties at war, even indirectly, he's basically supporting exactly what the Arabs and Muslims have been selling for decades. You only need to read Rodger Cohen's editorial in the New York Times today to see that.

I'm sure Petraeus is stating exactly what's true for him on the ground--the hatred of Israel and her links to the States can't help but affect his work.

I hate to think that what he's saying might convince anyone that we can buy the Arab world's love by distancing ourselves from Israel. Can't be done, and shouldn't.

368 bj  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:38:28pm

re: #311 RogueOne

I'm going to have to stick up for General Petraeus. I don't think the report says anything we don't already know, the average middle-eastern Muslim doesn't view the US as an honest broker of peace when it comes to Israel. I think that's a "no shit" statement.

It's what reporting media had to say about what Petraeus said - "danger to US soldiers" that got some upset. Not everything is connected to Israel but to Israel's existence per Arab propaganda.

369 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:38:33pm

re: #358 blueraven

So all of a sudden, Petraeus is a piece of shit because you disagree with him on this issue?

Marjoriemoon is prone to hyperbole. She once said Sarah Palin is a piece of filth and stood by it though I was appalled. She gets steamed, but there's a lot to like.

370 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:38:54pm
371 eastsider  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:39:36pm

re: #370 gegenkritik

It would be really fun to tell you something about my real-life and smack the "arguments" of people like you to dust.

But since I do care about my privacy, the answer is just: Of course I think there are no good muslims. Every muslim is bad to the core and has to be killed.

Hope you are happy now.

dude i hope you're joking.

372 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:39:42pm

re: #317 lawhawk

Speaking of violence, the Palestinians are at it again. Israel rededicated the Hurva Synagogue in the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem (which was obliterated by the Jordanians in 1948 and which Israel did not regain control of until 1967. The Israelis built a soaring arch to duplicate one of the architectural features of the destroyed shul, and they finally rebuilt it.

Of course, the Palestinians started a rumor that this was the first step to destroying the al Aqsa mosque and Dome of the Rock to prepare for the construction of a new Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount.

Much violence ensued.

The US envoy George Mitchell cancelled his trip indefinitely. The US hasn't exactly spoken out against the rumors, letting them continue to percolate among the Arab populations that are regularly plied with such blatherings until they can no longer discern between fact and fantasy.

Oh, and the violence isn't being blamed on the rumors but on Israel's proposed housing projects even though the violence is directly attributed to the rumors.

And just because Hamas and Islamic Jihad wanted in on the action, they fired a kassam from Gaza into Israel.

Some mornings I could write the news myself...

373 bj  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:39:43pm

re: #360 Ilan toren

James Baaker was more believable and consistent when he said 'fuck the Jews'. Clinton can't undo the damage she has done by reading platitudes on the teleprompter. You'd have to be an idiot to believe this 'unshakeable bond' crap when it comes out of this administration.

Then again it is in no way unexpected.

Thank you!!

374 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:41:12pm

I'm off... talk to y'all lata!

375 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:41:14pm

re: #371 eastsider

dude i hope you're joking.

I wouldn't quote that one. It's gotta be headed for destruction.

376 simoom  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:41:23pm

re: #308 marjoriemoon

We are NOT incapable of standing up to Israel. Unfortunately (actually) this week proves how completely capable we are.

What we are incapable of doing is standing up to the Arabs. That the General would say what he said is inexcusable.

re: #344 lawhawk

And that posture ignores the culpability of some of these regimes in perpetuating the conflict to avoid having to take responsibility for the sorry state of affairs in their own countries.

That has to change.

Again from General Petraeus' prepared statement to the Senate Armed Services Committee today:

The most serious threats to these interests lie at the nexus of militant groups, hostile states, and WMD. Across the AOR, al-Qaeda and its Associated Movements are fueling insurgencies to reduce U.S. influence and to destabilize the existing political, social, and economic order. Meanwhile, some countries in the AOR play a dangerous game of allowing or accepting terrorist networks and facilitators to operate from or through their territory, believing that their own people and governments will be immune to their threat. Efforts to develop or acquire nuclear weapons and delivery systems magnify the potential dangers of the marriage between some states and their militant proxies. Indeed, the acquisition of nuclear arms by hostile states or terrorist organizations would constitute a grave threat to the United States, our allies, and the countries of the region and would likely spark a destabilizing arms race.
...
C. Cross-cutting Challenges to Security and Stability
...
Militant Islamist movements. The CENTCOM AOR is home to militant Islamist movements that threaten states in the region, exploit local conflicts, and foster instability through acts of terrorism.

...

Ungoverned, poorly governed, and alternatively governed spaces. Weak civil and security institutions and the inability of certain governments in the region to exert full control over their territories are conditions that insurgent groups can exploit to create physical safe havens in which they can plan, train for, and launch operations or pursue narco-criminal activities. We have seen these groups develop, or attempt to develop, what might be termed sub-states, particularly in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Lebanon, Iraq, Yemen, and the Palestinian territories.
Significant sources of terrorist financing and facilitation. The AOR remains a primary source of illicit funding and facilitation for global terrorist organizations and other militant groups. All this financing is transmitted through a variety of formal and informal networks, which include financial operatives and front companies throughout the region.
Criminal activities, such as weapons, narcotics, and human trafficking. Weapons smuggling, narcotics trafficking, and associated criminal activities undermine security, spur corruption, and inhibit legitimate economic activity and good governance throughout the AOR. In particular, state-sponsored weapons trafficking in support of groups like Lebanese Hizballah, Hamas, and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad undermines regional security and the Middle East Peace Process.
377 blueraven  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:41:24pm

re: #369 Silvergirl

Marjoriemoon is prone to hyperbole. She once said Sarah Palin is a piece of filth and stood by it though I was appalled. She gets steamed, but there's a lot to like.

I agree with that.

378 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:41:28pm

Hillary Clinton dialed down the diplomatic confrontation with Israel this morning, pledging that the US has “an unshakable bond” with Israel, and dismissing suggestions that the relationship between the US and Israel was at its worst point in decades.

Perhaps someone can inform me. My understanding is that President Obama has embargoed weapons to Israel since taking office. Is there any truth to that rumor? If it is true,
it is much more telling about Obama's policy towards Israel.

379 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:41:39pm

re: #323 gegenkritik

There are only degrees of how open the hostility against Israel is. Solidarity with Israel is unconditional or it is not.

What does 'unconditional' mean? Mothers have unconditional love for their children. Countries do not have it for one another.

380 Samson  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:41:54pm

re: #70 cgn38navy

I think your point about Chicago politics is well taken, but whatever the reason for its actions, it is Obama's administration and he is ultimately responsible for its conduct in foreign affairs. I do not mean to be critical about everything he does, but it was evident during the campaign that he is relatively ignorant about and in some ways disinterested in history and international affairs. This does not just apply to Israel and the middle east, but to the rest of the world with few exceptions. Without meaning any undue disrespect or irony, I'm afraid that he does not realize that the rest of the world is not as enlightened as he is, and that is partly why his well-intentioned overtures to our opponents (and criticism or lack of interest in our allies) are not being well received.

381 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:42:02pm

re: #371 eastsider

It doesn't matter what I write. In two days, HoosierHoops will write that this Gegenkritik propagated genocide for muslims.

382 eastsider  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:42:34pm

re: #375 Silvergirl

I wouldn't quote that one. It's gotta be headed for destruction.

I think mine will go down as collateral damage. But yeah, both should be deleted.

383 eastsider  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:43:09pm

re: #381 gegenkritik

It doesn't matter what I write. In two days, HoosierHoops will write that this Gegenkritik propagated genocide for muslims.

dude you just did advance genocide against muslims. doesn't matter whether HH says it or not, YOU DID.

384 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:43:17pm

re: #381 gegenkritik

It doesn't matter what I write. In two days, HoosierHoops will write that this Gegenkritik propagated genocide for muslims.

If you don't even care what you write, why should anyone else...

385 RogueOne  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:43:19pm

You guys have almost made me late for my hair appt. BBL looking even hotter than normal.

386 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:43:27pm

re: #326 eastsider

okay now we're getting somewhere. You've defined a null hypothesis for us to engage with.

I disagree, I think you can be pro-Israel and simultaneously disagree with house builds, think Islam has elements of peaceful activity, and that Obama has upheld American relations with Israel.

I am in favor of the new units at Ramat Sholomo, think Islam is an altogether fine religion when practiced by sane people, and think Obama's approach to Israel gets maybe a C at this point.

Where do I fall?

387 eastsider  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:44:10pm

re: #381 gegenkritik

It doesn't matter what I write. In two days, HoosierHoops will write that this Gegenkritik propagated genocide for muslims.

Look. I tried to help you and point you in the right direction. You didn't listen, and you openly advocated genocide on a billion people. Now you're going to get banned, and probably write that blog entry. It really didn't have to be this way.

Thanks for playing though, have a nice day!

388 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:44:22pm

re: #327 The Sanity Inspector

For every two Jews, there are three opinions.
-- David ben Gurion

Dos judios, tres kehilloth.

--Traditional Turkish Sephardi saying

389 JamesWI  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:44:49pm

re: #386 SanFranciscoZionist

I am in favor of the new units at Ramat Sholomo, think Islam is an altogether fine religion when practiced by sane people, and think Obama's approach to Israel gets maybe a C at this point.

Where do I fall?

Anti-Semite!!!!!!

390 blueraven  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:45:01pm

re: #378 Stuart Leviton

Hillary Clinton dialed down the diplomatic confrontation with Israel this morning, pledging that the US has “an unshakable bond” with Israel, and dismissing suggestions that the relationship between the US and Israel was at its worst point in decades.

Perhaps someone can inform me. My understanding is that President Obama has embargoed weapons to Israel since taking office. Is there any truth to that rumor? If it is true,
it is much more telling about Obama's policy towards Israel.

Where does your "understanding" of this policy come from? Got links?

391 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:45:56pm

re: #370 gegenkritik

It would be really fun to tell you something about my real-life and smack the "arguments" of people like you to dust.

But since I do care about my privacy, the answer is just: Of course I think there are no good muslims. Every muslim is bad to the core and has to be killed.

Hope you are happy now.

And off comes the mask.

It must hurt to live like that. Where did you grow up?

392 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:45:58pm
393 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:46:10pm

re: #334 simoom

I think what Gen. Patraeus is communicating is that our posture in the Middle East peace process, the perception that we're far from impartial negotiators, and that we're not making any real progress, damages our credibility/relationships with governments we now depend on (intelligence sharing, drone strike permissions, crackdowns on extremists, deployments, security force training, etc) to effectively prosecute the War on Terror.

Does Petraeus have concrete suggestions about how to change this perception without making very bad foreign policy moves?

394 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:47:05pm

re: #370 gegenkritik

Hope you are happy now.

And why do you think that would make me happy? It certainly doesn't. What logic would mean I get pleasure out of seeing hatred and ignorance?

395 eastsider  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:47:21pm

re: #392 gegenkritik

Even though I get to used to nasty comments, this infamy and stupidity even surprises me. Really, fuck you.

you just wrote that "every muslim must be killed." How is that not advocating genocide? This is pretty cut and dry.

396 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:48:46pm

re: #323 gegenkritik

There are only degrees of how open the hostility against Israel is. Solidarity with Israel is unconditional or it is not.

This is useless 1-bit binary absolutism, specifically designed to demonize all nuanced rational thought.

397 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:48:58pm

re: #381 gegenkritik

It doesn't matter what I write. In two days, HoosierHoops will write that this Gegenkritik propagated genocide for muslims.

First: I don't think you mean "propoagated" - perhaps "promoted"?

Second: It does matter what you write. These are your ideas. You have control over how you express yourself. You seem to believe that somehow your words will be changed but in fact they are only a self-reflection. You spew so much anger, resentment and hatred at everyone. I'm curious as to why?

398 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:49:32pm

re: #394 Cineaste

Because it doesn't matter what I say, you will anyway me label as a racist who wants to murder every muslim. And if I in a sarcastic way write what you want to read, it is taken serious by stupid assholes like eastsiders, whose stupditiy is only being challenged by their infamy.

399 bj  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:49:57pm

re: #378 Stuart Leviton

Hillary Clinton dialed down the diplomatic confrontation with Israel this morning, pledging that the US has “an unshakable bond” with Israel, and dismissing suggestions that the relationship between the US and Israel was at its worst point in decades.

Perhaps someone can inform me. My understanding is that President Obama has embargoed weapons to Israel since taking office. Is there any truth to that rumor? If it is true,
it is much more telling about Obama's policy towards Israel.

[Link: www.worldtribune.com...]

400 eastsider  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:50:24pm

re: #398 gegenkritik

Because it doesn't matter what I say, you will anyway me label as a racist who wants to murder every muslim. And if I in a sarcastic way write what you want to read, it is taken serious by stupid assholes like eastsiders, whose stupditiy is only being challenged by their infamy.

I'm laying 3:1 odds on my infamy. Any takers?

401 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:51:18pm

re: #378 Stuart Leviton


Perhaps someone can inform me. My understanding is that President Obama has embargoed weapons to Israel since taking office. Is there any truth to that rumor? If it is true,
it is much more telling about Obama's policy towards Israel.

Embargoed?

402 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:51:40pm

re: #378 Stuart Leviton

Perhaps someone can inform me. My understanding is that President Obama has embargoed weapons to Israel since taking office. Is there any truth to that rumor? If it is true,
it is much more telling about Obama's policy towards Israel.

What? What are you reading?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

403 Samson  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:52:41pm

re: #361 webevintage

The point here is not really whether he not he has made a stop on his travels in the middle east in Israel. Diplomacy suggests that it might have been a good move right after his trip to Egypt, but Jews in Israel do not give him low ratings because he has not made an official visit. Rather, his administration's poorly conceived and ineffective policies toward and statements about Israel, which have not promoted peace in the middle east and have benefited no one, are to blame.

404 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:53:06pm

re: #398 gegenkritik

Because it doesn't matter what I say, you will anyway me label as a racist who wants to murder every muslim. And if I in a sarcastic way write what you want to read, it is taken serious by stupid assholes like eastsiders, whose stupditiy is only being challenged by their infamy.

psst - i have a secret for you - you don't write well enough to indicate sarcasm without explicitly saying so.

that honor is earned, not claimed. i'm here all week. try the baby cow.

405 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:53:36pm

re: #397 Cineaste

First: I don't think you mean "propoagated" - perhaps "promoted"?


First: No, I wrote propagated, not "propoagated". I think this is the correct form of "to propagate", but since English is not my first language (second time I have to tell this), feel free to correct me.

Second: I don't care what you think about me.

406 blueraven  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:54:10pm

re: #399 bj

[Link: www.worldtribune.com...]

That is a sad article. The source: "the report said". What report?

407 bj  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:54:20pm

re: #401 SanFranciscoZionist

Embargoed?

[Link: www.israelnationalnews.com...]

[Link: www.sodahead.com...]

408 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:54:37pm

re: #401 SanFranciscoZionist

Embargoed?

Sorry, let me clarify--no, to the best of my knowledge, Obama has not cut the Israelis off from arms deals.

409 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:54:39pm

re: #398 gegenkritik

Because it doesn't matter what I say, you will anyway me label as a racist who wants to murder every muslim. And if I in a sarcastic way write what you want to read, it is taken serious by stupid assholes like eastsiders, whose stupditiy is only being challenged by their infamy.

When have I labeled you anything like that? You are the one running around the site declaring people to be evil anti-semites without reading what they have to say. You're the one saying those things. Why are you incapable of explaining your ideas?

I would submit it's that, when you look at them closely as you have to do when explaining them, your ideas are fraught with problems that you don't want to face.

It's much, much easier to fold your arms, stick out your tongue, and tell everyone that they're evil.

410 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:54:57pm

re: #390 blueraven

Where does your "understanding" of this policy come from? Got links?

I'm searching for something credible about the rumor on the net (gimf: google is my friend?).

411 bj  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:56:44pm

re: #406 blueraven

That is a sad article. The source: "the report said". What report?

The Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs reported ...

Otherwise, it had to be a government report as it has obama's name on it. I've been told the F-16's purchased over a year ago haven't arrived - my source is IDF family.

412 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:57:01pm

re: #404 Aceofwhat?

Bullshit - people like eastsider will always twist my words, lie about what I have said just because they are extremely angry that Charles has not banned me.

413 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:57:03pm

re: #405 gegenkritik

Second: I don't care what you think about me.

Ahh, and here we have one of your logic problems. You say you don't care what I think of you and then you say:

Because it doesn't matter what I say, you will anyway me label as a racist who wants to murder every muslim. And if I in a sarcastic way write what you want to read, it is taken serious by stupid assholes like eastsiders, whose stupditiy is only being challenged by their infamy.

Which would seem to indicate you're very frustrated by what I think of you.

Care to make up your mind?

414 simoom  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:58:52pm

re: #393 SanFranciscoZionist

Does Petraeus have concrete suggestions about how to change this perception without making very bad foreign policy moves?

I haven't read anything about specific recommendations, but the Foreign Policy piece made it seem like he wanted CENTCOM's AOR expanded to cover the Palestinians (the request was rejected), a redoubling of Mid-East Peace efforts and also there was Adm. Mullen's meeting with chief of the Israeli General Staff, Lt. General Gabi Ashkenazi, pleading their case.

415 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:59:01pm

re: #402 Cineaste

What? What are you reading?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Cine and bj, you both may have saved me a whole lot of time. And the story (for me) becomes that more confusing/intriguing. Thanks.

416 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:59:27pm

OK--I've never heard of JINSA, and they appear to be the only source here.

They also appear to claim that Netanyahu is hiding a weapons embargo.

I want to hear something besides an Artuz Sheva report on a JINSA report before I buy anything like this. It sounds...improbable...in its present form.

417 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 12:59:42pm

re: #409 Cineaste

Your stupid question in the style of "are there good muslims?" were telling you: You are not interested in a discussion about critique of Islam, because for you, everyone who has the slightest critique of this ideology is a potential mass-murderer.

418 blueraven  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:00:04pm

re: #407 bj

[Link: www.israelnationalnews.com...]

[Link: www.sodahead.com...]

These have the same problem as the first link you posted: No sources.

419 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:00:09pm

re: #412 gegenkritik

Bullshit - people like eastsider will always twist my words, lie about what I have said just because they are extremely angry that Charles has not banned me.

You do know that your words stay right where they are, right? When you write them down and publish them they don't get twisted, they are left as you wrote them.

420 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:00:21pm

re: #412 gegenkritik

He's on vacay. Hopefully he'll be checking in soon.

421 Ayeless in Ghazi  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:00:33pm

re: #412 gegenkritik

Bullshit - people like eastsider will always twist my words, lie about what I have said just because they are extremely angry that Charles has not banned me.

Why would he ban you? It's so much funnier just watching you melt down, over and over again.

422 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:01:03pm

re: #420 Stanley Sea

He's on vacay. Hopefully he'll be checking in soon.

The comment in question has been deleted. Good.

423 eastsider  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:01:16pm

re: #412 gegenkritik

Bullshit - people like eastsider will always twist my words, lie about what I have said just because they are extremely angry that Charles has not banned me.

you said:

"Every muslim is bad to the core and has to be killed."

I said you said:

""every muslim must be killed.""

Not a lot of twisting going on there. I even asked if you were joking saying "I hope you are joking."

Going forward, using a "/s" tag is good for showing sarcasm where it may not be obvious. Although that was pretty extreme, even if meant sarcastically.

I think you should take up Cineaste's offer and explore whatever is going on inside your own head and heart, because there's a lot of confusion and anger there.

I hope you find some peace, sir.

424 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:01:25pm

re: #412 gegenkritik

Bullshit - people like eastsider will always twist my words, lie about what I have said just because they are extremely angry that Charles has not banned me.

You are being talked to as though you are a rational adult, and you are not responding with that respect. Your language and your offensive manner and defensive posture add up to exactly how it was portrayed upthread--as folding your arms, sticking out your tongue, and telling people that they're evil.

425 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:01:33pm

re: #412 gegenkritik

Bullshit - people like eastsider will always twist my words, lie about what I have said just because they are extremely angry that Charles has not banned me.

bullshit. if English isn't your first language, and you admit that you'll make the occasional error, then don't get huffy and puffy when you think you wrote something sarcastic and everyone else thought that you were serious.

i only speak two languages, but i only do sarcasm in one. trust me. your words twist themselves just fine without anyone's help. sarcasm is like good wine. knowing what a grape is does not mean you can create Merlot.

426 bj  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:01:49pm

re: #418 blueraven

These have the same problem as the first link you posted: No sources.

The Jewish Institute of National Security Affairs is not a credible source????

427 Gus  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:02:45pm

Afternoon.

I see "the diplomat" is here. Nice of him to disparage my name in my absence.

428 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:04:26pm

re: #426 bj

The Jewish Institute of National Security Affairs is not a credible source???

Like I said, I have never the hell heard of them. So I don't know if they're credible or not. I'm currently Googling, trying to see if they are acknowledged by organizations I know more about.

429 eastsider  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:05:09pm

re: #417 gegenkritik

Your stupid question in the style of "are there good muslims?" were telling you: You are not interested in a discussion about critique of Islam, because for you, everyone who has the slightest critique of this ideology is a potential mass-murderer.

That's a pretty big jump from "are there any good muslims" to "you are a murderer."

There are steps between "mass murderer" and "disagrees with portions of Islam."

Cineaste, do you agree with that?

430 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:05:39pm

re: #427 Gus 802

Afternoon.

I see "the diplomat" is here. Nice of him to attempt to disparage my name in my absence.

The absence of logic from el diplomatico requires my little correction to your sentence.../

431 blueraven  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:05:39pm

re: #426 bj

The Jewish Institute of National Security Affairs is not a credible source???

I didn't see a link in that article to any report, just a statement that there was one.

432 Gus  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:06:09pm

re: #430 Aceofwhat?

The absence of logic from el diplomatico requires my little correction to your sentence.../

Thanks very much Ace. :)

433 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:06:10pm

re: #421 Jimmah

Why would he ban you? It's so much funnier just watching you melt down, over and over again.

itz funny cuz itz truuu-

434 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:06:50pm

re: #407 bj

[Link: www.israelnationalnews.com...]

[Link: www.sodahead.com...]

Yeah, OK, that's pure unmitigated bullshit BJ. Here's what you get when you go to JINSA itself:

1. MENL added the name of Prime Minister Netanyahu in the context of a supposed Israeli failure to protest a mythical Obama Administration "embargo" on Israel. The JINSA Reports never used Netanyahu's name or introduced the word or even the concept of an embargo.

2. MENL took our stated questioning of why the Israeli government does not protest U.S. training and equipping a nascent Palestinian army and extended it to Obama Administration arms sales in general.

3. MENL characterized our reports to have said, "More than 20 years ago, the Israel Air Force stopped participating in U.S.-sponsored regional exercises to prevent the leakage of combat tactics," suggesting that there were regional exercises in which the United States and Israel had been participating, and from which Israel withdrew. In actuality, we wrote "At one point in the 1980s, Israel declined to participate in certain U.S. air exercises, knowing that tactics the IAF developed for use in U.S. aircraft would be shared with American pilots and then shared with Saudi pilots."

435 bj  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:07:31pm

re: #428 SanFranciscoZionist

Like I said, I have never the hell heard of them. So I don't know if they're credible or not. I'm currently Googling, trying to see if they are acknowledged by organizations I know more about.

Have you ever heard of or met or worked with any of these people?
JINSA Board of Advisors:

David P. Steinmann
Chairman of the Board of Advisors
*
Prof. Anne Bayefsky
*
Sheriff Kevin Beary, Orange County, Fla.
*
Deputy Chief Michael Berkow, LAPD
*
J. Kenneth Blackwell
*
Amb. John R. Bolton
*
Hon. Beau Boulter
*
Dr. Stephen D. Bryen
*
Lt. Gen. Anthony Burshnick, USAF (ret.)
*
Rep. Eric Cantor
*
Lt. Gen. Paul Cerjan, USA (ret.)
*
Gen. James B. Davis, USAF (ret.)
*
Maj. Gen. Lee Downer, USAF (ret.)
*
Maj. Gen. Robert D. Eaglet, USAF (ret.)
*
Adm. Leon Edney, USN (ret.)
*
Gen. John Foss, USA (ret.)
*
Lt. Gen. Thomas Griffin, USA (ret.)
*
Lt. Gen. Earl B. Hailston, USMC (ret.)
*
Gen. Richard D. Hearney, USMC (ret.)
*
Adm. David Jeremiah, USN (ret.)
*
Adm. Jerome Johnson, USN (ret.)
*
Phyllis Kaminsky
*
Amb. Max M. Kampelman
*
V. Adm. Bernard Kauderer, USN (ret.)
*
Michael Ledeen
*
V. Adm. Anthony A. Less, USN (ret.)
*
Maj. Gen. Jarvis Lynch, USMC (ret.)
*
Senator Connie Mack
*
Lt. Gen. Charles May, USAF (ret.)
*
Lt. Gen. Frederick McCorkle, USMC (ret.)
*
Hon. Dave McCurdy
*
Maj. Gen. William C. Moore, USA (ret.)
*
Chief Joseph Morris (ret.)
*
Dr. Joshua Muravchik
*
Maj. Gen. Robert B. Patterson, USAF (ret.)
*
V. Adm. James B. Perkins, III, USN (ret.)
*
Hon. Richard Perle
*
Chief Joseph Polisar (ret.)
*
Amb. Peter R. Rosenblatt
*
R. Adm. Norman Saunders, USCG (ret.)
*
Maj. Gen. Sidney Shachnow, USA (ret.)
*
Prof. David Sidorsky
*
Gen. Lawrence A. Skantze, USAF (ret.)
*
Hon. Stephen Solarz
*
Lt. Gen. Ted G. Stroup, Jr., USA (ret.)
*
Maj. Gen. Larry Taylor, USMCR
*
Kenneth R. Timmerman
*
Jacques Torczyner
*
Adm. Carlisle Trost, USN (ret.)
*
Gen. Louis Wagner, USA (ret.)
*
Hon. R. James Woolsey

[Link: www.jinsa.org...]

436 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:07:56pm

re: #370 gegenkritik

That reminded me of a famous interview Amos Oz did long ago, with an unnamed somebody widely rumored to be Ariel Sharon.

437 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:08:03pm

re: #417 gegenkritik

Your stupid question in the style of "are there good muslims?" were telling you: You are not interested in a discussion about critique of Islam, because for you, everyone who has the slightest critique of this ideology is a potential mass-murderer.

hmmm...no, it was more of a question in the style of "is the sky blue", meant to ascertain your current plane of existence.

it worked, too.

438 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:08:17pm

re: #427 Gus 802

Afternoon.

I see "the diplomat" is here. Nice of him to disparage my name in my absence.

I wouldn't take it personally. Your absence or presence wouldn't have mattered a whit. It's what you stand for in his mind, so he came gunning.

439 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:09:30pm

re: #434 goddamnedfrank

Thanks, that makes a touch more sense!

440 eastsider  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:09:34pm

re: #427 Gus 802

Afternoon.

I see "the diplomat" is here. Nice of him to disparage my name in my absence.

the diplomat = gegenkritik ?

441 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:10:13pm

re: #434 goddamnedfrank

Yeah, OK, that's pure unmitigated bullshit BJ.

Isn't that redundant? I thought all unmitigated bullshit was presumed pure unless otherwise noted? Now if you mean organic bullshit, well that's a whole 'nother dead cat...there are strict regs to follow to be certified organic bullshit//

442 bj  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:10:55pm

re: #434 goddamnedfrank

Must be something wrong with your computer then. JINSA is a highly credible reporting source re arms to Israel/Israeli security.

443 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:11:07pm

re: #438 Silvergirl

I wouldn't take it personally. Your absence or presence wouldn't have mattered a whit. It's what you stand for in his mind, so he came gunning.

Heh. Gunning with nerf darts, too.

444 bj  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:12:25pm

re: #439 SanFranciscoZionist

Thanks, that makes a touch more sense!

Try the main site [Link: www.jinsa.org...]

445 Gus  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:13:44pm

re: #438 Silvergirl

I wouldn't take it personally. Your absence or presence wouldn't have mattered a whit. It's what you stand for in his mind, so he came gunning.

Thanks. Yeah, it's not a grand concern of mine right now. I never really made a complete stance on this issue. I can say though that's it's perfectly reasonable to be on either side of the fence. However, the most important thing is to present that stance in what one would call diplomatic fashion and in a calm and reasonable fashion sans the ad hominems and accusations. If not it becomes less about what is being said and more of the personality engaging in such erratic or anti-social behavior instead.

446 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:13:50pm

re: #425 Aceofwhat?
No, it is simply a question of bad behavior. Creeps like eastsider and Cinefuck WANT to twist my words, because they know who am I: a radical christian conservative who wants to kill all muslims.

When I write in a sarcastic way that I wanna kill every muslim, they both know that it was meant sarcastic. But since they are extremely dishonest, they try to smear me, saying that I menat this literally.

It's not that I am disappointed about the people here who fall to the lies of such creeps.

But seeing Charles - who has been the victim of excactly those smear-tactics many times and whom I defended not only with informations about certain fascist groups in Europe, but also over at Spencer's blog - deleting my post is kinda disappointing.

447 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:13:58pm

re: #443 Aceofwhat?

Heh. Gunning with nerf darts, too.

Whatever's in the arsenal.

448 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:16:17pm

re: #442 bj

Must be something wrong with your computer then. JINSA is a highly credible reporting source re arms to Israel/Israeli security.

I'm not arguing with JINSA BJ, you are! They didn't "set the record straight" so that well meaning fools would continue to spread lies based on a deliberate misrepresentation of their report.

449 eastsider  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:17:54pm

re: #446 gegenkritik

No, it is simply a question of bad behavior. Creeps like eastsider and Cinefuck WANT to twist my words, because they know who am I: a radical christian conservative who wants to kill all muslims.

When I write in a sarcastic way that I wanna kill every muslim, they both know that it was meant sarcastic. But since they are extremely dishonest, they try to smear me, saying that I menat this literally.

It's not that I am disappointed about the people here who fall to the lies of such creeps.

But seeing Charles - who has been the victim of excactly those smear-tactics many times and whom I defended not only with informations about certain fascist groups in Europe, but also over at Spencer's blog - deleting my post is kinda disappointing.

I didn't know you were being sarcastic. Nobody knew you were being sarcastic.

I'm not your enemy, sir. Look back at the convo, I've actually been offering you meta advice on how to advance your position here and encouraging you when you made actual points.

And I even explicitly said that I don't view people on a black and white scale, that when other people do it its dangerous. Did you miss that post?

For the record: Your pro-Israel view is welcome here. I'm interested to learn more about it, and potentially change my own opinions, if you'll educate me as to why you hold your opinions and how they are correct.

/I fear you will not internalize this message, or simply label me disingenuous, but I truly mean it, and others who know me here can attest to that.

450 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:20:27pm

re: #446 gegenkritik

But seeing Charles - who has been the victim of excactly those smear-tactics many times and whom I defended not only with informations about certain fascist groups in Europe, but also over at Spencer's blog - deleting my post is kinda disappointing.

You have not been paying attention. Charles has been smeared by posts such as the one of yours that was just deleted. You are contributing to the problem. Crying "sarcasm" but not labeling your sarcastic posts as such is worse than a noob error. It's what trolls do.

Your help in one case years ago does not give you license to break all the rules (and be rude about it too) now.

451 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:20:28pm

re: #446 gegenkritik

No, it is simply a question of bad behavior. Creeps like eastsider and Cinefuck WANT to twist my words, because they know who am I: a radical christian conservative who wants to kill all muslims.

When I write in a sarcastic way that I wanna kill every muslim, they both know that it was meant sarcastic. But since they are extremely dishonest, they try to smear me, saying that I menat this literally.

It's not that I am disappointed about the people here who fall to the lies of such creeps.

But seeing Charles - who has been the victim of excactly those smear-tactics many times and whom I defended not only with informations about certain fascist groups in Europe, but also over at Spencer's blog - deleting my post is kinda disappointing.

No, it is a question of your inability to be clearly sarcastic. Sarcasm is like humor. If people don't get it, it's your fault, not theirs. You don't have to be great at the English language. But when you suck it, and then blame everyone else for not "getting you", it just reeks of pathetic. Like, i want to go drive to a middle school and wallow in some Drakkar Noir or Axe Body Spray just to get the smell of pathetic out of my shirt...it's a formidable scent...stings the nostrils...

You can damn well be sure that if i made a sarcastic comment about genocide and one single person didn't get it, i'd trip over my self in a hurry to apologize and explain that no offense was intended.

Anything else I can straighten out for you?

452 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:20:42pm

re: #442 bj

Must be something wrong with your computer then. JINSA is a highly credible reporting source re arms to Israel/Israeli security.

Did you not understand that they are, on their website, stating that their findings are being misrepresented by other agencies?

453 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:21:50pm

re: #444 bj

Try the main site [Link: www.jinsa.org...]

It goes to the same link. They didn't say what the other sites say they said. They refer to the embargo as 'mythical'.

454 bj  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:22:04pm

re: #448 goddamnedfrank

I'm not arguing with JINSA BJ, you are! They didn't "set the record straight" so that well meaning fools would continue to spread lies based on a deliberate misrepresentation of their report.

I have no argument with JINSA. I simply posted the URL of the main site of the reporting organisation in the articles on embargo of arms from US to Israel for perusal. It's been kept "quiet", i.e. press not making a big deal of it.

jesus H. christ, would all you people who just want to argue personalities and degrade other posters, please go to the lounge and let the ones interested in discussion, discuss and impart information??? The opening article has barely been mentioned in over 400 posts. What a waste of bandwidth.

455 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:24:25pm

re: #454 bj

I have no argument with JINSA. I simply posted the URL of the main site of the reporting organisation in the articles on embargo of arms from US to Israel for perusal. It's been kept "quiet", i.e. press not making a big deal of it.

jesus H. christ, would all you people who just want to argue personalities and degrade other posters, please go to the lounge and let the ones interested in discussion, discuss and impart information??? The opening article has barely been mentioned in over 400 posts. What a waste of bandwidth.

The main site of the reporting organization says there is no embargo. That's good news!

456 bj  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:24:50pm

re: #452 SanFranciscoZionist

Did you not understand that they are, on their website, stating that their findings are being misrepresented by other agencies?

I read the report. Do you see what the media is saying? Another poster asked what report the original article I posted referred to. I listed the only "reporting" I saw. If that is the wrong one, that is not my fault. I didn't write those embargo articles. But the news of embargo is out there. Can you disprove it as someone else asked?

457 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:25:26pm

re: #454 bj

jesus H. christ, would all you people who just want to argue personalities and degrade other posters, please go to the lounge and let the ones interested in discussion, discuss and impart information??? The opening article has barely been mentioned in over 400 posts. What a waste of bandwidth.

Speaking of not paying attention....

There is no Lounge any more.

The information you imparted has been debunked -- by your own link.

458 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:25:30pm

re: #454 bj

I have no argument with JINSA. I simply posted the URL of the main site of the reporting organisation in the articles on embargo of arms from US to Israel for perusal. It's been kept "quiet", i.e. press not making a big deal of it.

Because it, being the "embargo," doesn't exist. It's a made up, mythical, confabulation. That's what JINSA is saying, and what you are refusing to acknowledge.

459 bj  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:26:25pm

re: #453 SanFranciscoZionist

It goes to the same link. They didn't say what the other sites say they said. They refer to the embargo as 'mythical'.

It doesn't go to the same site for me as yours did. Gremlins in the computer, maybe.

460 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:26:26pm

re: #456 bj

I read the report. Do you see what the media is saying? Another poster asked what report the original article I posted referred to. I listed the only "reporting" I saw. If that is the wrong one, that is not my fault. I didn't write those embargo articles. But the news of embargo is out there. Can you disprove it as someone else asked?

The news of the embargo, in all the links I have seen, is sourced back to JINSA. JINSA says there is no embargo, and that they have been misrepresented. I consider the story disproven, unless there is a non-JINSA source saying the same thing.

461 cliffster  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:27:07pm

I think bj is a very good nick.

462 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:27:52pm

re: #451 Aceofwhat?
Just because at LGF sarcasm is usually being indicated by a "/", does not mean that everything without a "/" is not sarcasm. Did you ever read something else than LGF, maybe a book?

463 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:28:02pm

re: #461 cliffster

I think bj is a very good nick.

Heh. Almost said something like that myself earlier. I was trying to be good...

464 bj  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:28:36pm

re: #458 goddamnedfrank

Because it, being the "embargo," doesn't exist. It's a made up, mythical, confabulation. That's what JINSA is saying, and what you are refusing to acknowledge.

I'm not refusing to acknowledge anything. I said, it's the media, the media, the media. Another poster wanted to know report sources, I gave the only one I saw which one can read and decide for themselves w/o depending on media.

465 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:29:58pm

re: #464 bj

I'm not refusing to acknowledge anything. I said, it's the media, the media, the media. Another poster wanted to know report sources, I gave the only one I saw which one can read and decide for themselves w/o depending on media.

OK. Based on Frank's point, I think we're safe disregarding this, but being aware that the rumor is out there. No?

466 cliffster  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:30:08pm

re: #463 iceweasel

Heh. Almost said something like that myself earlier. I was trying to be good...

No need for that... Hey, random internet person, I don't necessarily agree with what you're saying, but I like your style...

467 bj  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:31:49pm

re: #463 iceweasel

Heh. Almost said something like that myself earlier. I was trying to be good...

Thank you for taking that cheap shot by making fun of my initials. I've only had them for close to 70 years. Losers stoop to name calling, hysteriam attacks, ad hominem, red herrings, strawmen, etc. Oy vey! Such children here.

468 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:32:03pm

re: #462 gegenkritik

re: #451 Aceofwhat?

Just because at LGF sarcasm is usually being indicated by a "/", does not mean that everything without a "/" is not sarcasm. Did you ever read something else than LGF, maybe a book?

Hey, come on, you named me in your opening salvo. The least you could do is acknowledge my post at #450.

469 filetandrelease  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:32:32pm

This brouhaha between Washington and Israel has me a little confused and a little angry. Angry because it has always seemed to me that the Palastinians could have had peace and a country anytime they chose, and much more land had they not been hostile since, say 1948. And confused because it seems we keep pushing the wrong guy.

When my first son was two I had learned that if I kept giving him candy, all he wanted was more and not satisfied with what I had given him.

I must be missing something. Is this the Jews fault.

470 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:32:35pm

re: #462 gegenkritik

Just because at LGF sarcasm is usually being indicated by a "/", does not mean that everything without a "/" is not sarcasm. Did you ever read something else than LGF, maybe a book?

There are people who can indicate sarcasm solely through a clever turn of phrase. You are not one of those people, at least in English.

471 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:33:50pm

re: #460 SanFranciscoZionist

The news of the embargo, in all the links I have seen, is sourced back to JINSA. JINSA says there is no embargo, and that they have been misrepresented. I consider the story disproven, unless there is a non-JINSA source saying the same thing.

This piece in The Guardian goes into how strained things are at the moment, but doesn't mention any suspension of arms sales.

472 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:33:58pm

re: #467 bj

Thank you for taking that cheap shot by making fun of my initials. I've only had them for close to 70 years. Losers stoop to name calling, hysteriam attacks, ad hominem, red herrings, strawmen, etc. Oy vey! Such children here.

Puh-leeze. It was funny. Your initials were inherited. Your NIC, on the other hand, is something you chose for yourself. Make sure you land on the fainting couch with that swoon...wouldn't want you to bump your head...

473 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:34:38pm

re: #463 iceweasel

Heh. Almost said something like that myself earlier. I was trying to be good...

You should be yourself instead/

474 cliffster  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:35:30pm

re: #467 bj

Thank you for taking that cheap shot by making fun of my initials. I've only had them for close to 70 years. Losers stoop to name calling, hysteriam attacks, ad hominem, red herrings, strawmen, etc. Oy vey! Such children here.

sweet - you covered all the stock fallacies, and your nick is bj. I like you more and more...

475 bj  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:35:56pm

re: #457 wrenchwench

Speaking of not paying attention...

There is no Lounge any more.

The information you imparted has been debunked -- by your own link.

You don't deal in fantasy?

re info - no shit sherlock only I'm not the one saying there is an embargo. It was questioned as to being real or not. I gave the debunking source.

476 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:37:25pm

re: #473 Aceofwhat?

You should be yourself instead/

So true. When I'm good I'm very good, and when I'm bad I'm even better. Just ask Jimmah. ;)

re: #467 bj

Thank you for taking that cheap shot by making fun of my initials. I've only had them for close to 70 years. Losers stoop to name calling, hysteriam attacks, ad hominem, red herrings, strawmen, etc. Oy vey! Such children here.

You're still failing at reading comprehension, dude. I'm not even the one who made the crack about your nic.
Lighten up, Francis. Don't you have enough people here already kicking your ass?

477 bj  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:38:06pm

re: #472 Aceofwhat?

Puh-leeze. It was funny. Your initials were inherited. Your NIC, on the other hand, is something you chose for yourself. Make sure you land on the fainting couch with that swoon...wouldn't want you to bump your head...

You're splitting straws. Stay on topic.

478 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:38:07pm

So, what ever happened to critical thinking skills? Just ask yourself, does it make a lick of sense for Obama to refuse US arms sales to Israel in the middle of the worst economy in many decades?

No, it does not make sense. It doesn't even pass the smell test.

479 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:38:25pm

re: #470 Aceofwhat?
I doubt that you are in a position to judge about this, not just because you won't notice sarcasm when it does not came along with "/", but also because you would side anytime with liars like those who accused me of propagating a genocide. End of discussion, kid.

480 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:40:16pm

re: #477 bj

You're splitting straws. Stay on topic.

the topic was poking fun at your nic.

you chose your nic yourself.

now your butt hurts.

seems like a pretty straight line of thought to me...

481 captdiggs  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:40:53pm

Just in case anyone doesn't know, this has nothing to do with Clinton.
She's Obama's mouthpiece and they have realized to some small degree that they erred politically. The vast majority of Americans are supportive of Israel as opposed to the palestinians.
More importantly, they have erred all year long diplomatically. That will be much harder to cure.
Obama has fallen for the "if we can only squeeze more from Israel, then there will be peace and tranquility in the middle east".
For the past year there has been exactly zero demands placed on the palestinians nor Israel's other arab neighbors. Virtually all demands for concessions have been placed at Israel's feet.
More telling, when palestinians call for "intidadas", more terrorism, threaten holy war, broadcast anti-semitic and terror promoting state TV shows, or are intransigent in sitting down at the table, there is not one word of condemnation from the Obama administration.
What this has done is to make the palestinians and the rest of the arab world far less likely to make peace or sit at the table in good faith.
Why should they, when all they have to do is nothing and let the US hammer Israel for them.

Until the Obama administration shows it is at least *balanced* in its approach, instead of acting like the palestinian representative, Israel has little reason to trust an afterthought statement made for political reasons.

482 bj  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:41:34pm

re: #476 iceweasel

You're still failing at reading comprehension, dude. I'm not even the one who made the crack about your nic.
Lighten up, Francis. Don't you have enough people here already kicking your ass?

So this site is now for "ass kicking", even of little old ladies, nu? LOL What maturity this is. OK, no discussion, no imparting of information to the public. Continue with your doggie friends. Shalom.

483 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:41:53pm

re: #479 gegenkritik

I doubt that you are in a position to judge about this, not just because you won't notice sarcasm when it does not came along with "/", but also because you would side anytime with liars like those who accused me of propagating a genocide. End of discussion, kid.

I was looking at some of the links in your blog roll and some of the links in the blog rolls of the other bloggers that you recommend.

I think if anyone here does a little research, you will see understand where gegenkritik is coming from.

And it's not very nice.

[Link: gegenkritik.wordpress.com...]

484 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:44:31pm

re: #479 gegenkritik

I doubt that you are in a position to judge about this, not just because you won't notice sarcasm when it does not came along with "/", but also because you would side anytime with liars like those who accused me of propagating a genocide. End of discussion, kid.

Surely then, if you say it's the end of the discussion, who am I to tangle with such emphatic authority? Verily, the air seems to refuse to enter my lungs, being too distracted by your command of the precedings to heed my strained attempts at breath. I shall return, chastened and bettered, to my humble cave and endeavor to improve my charcoal drawings.

485 cliffster  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:45:48pm

re: #482 bj

So this site is now for "ass kicking", even of little old ladies, nu? LOL What maturity this is. OK, no discussion, no imparting of information to the public. Continue with your doggie friends. Shalom.

There was a dude in here not long ago with the nic oldgeezer. He always talked about how old he was. Then one night he did his flounce, out of nowhere - just had been commenting, getting a little socialized, then *poof*. I don't think he was old at all. He was probably just one of the previously banned jackasses socking it. I never really thought he was old.

486 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:47:06pm

re: #485 cliffster

There was a dude in here not long ago with the nic oldgeezer. He always talked about how old he was. Then one night he did his flounce, out of nowhere - just had been commenting, getting a little socialized, then *poof*. I don't think he was old at all. He was probably just one of the previously banned jackasses socking it. I never really thought he was old.

I didn't know oldgeezer had flounced. Heck, was that YoungLibertarian again?

487 Aceofwhat?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:47:48pm

re: #485 cliffster

There was a dude in here not long ago with the nic oldgeezer. He always talked about how old he was. Then one night he did his flounce, out of nowhere - just had been commenting, getting a little socialized, then *poof*. I don't think he was old at all. He was probably just one of the previously banned jackasses socking it. I never really thought he was old.

really - i didn't see that. hilarious.

488 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:48:55pm

re: #486 SanFranciscoZionist

I didn't know oldgeezer had flounced. Heck, was that YoungLibertarian again?

It was weird. He started posting some bizarre sentences. As usual I questioned foreign substances.

489 cliffster  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:50:41pm

re: #488 Stanley Sea

It was weird. He started posting some bizarre sentences. As usual I questioned foreign substances.

Yeah... stupid stuff. The most coherent being something like, "did I up-chuck" or something. Whatever. weirdo

490 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:53:22pm

re: #6 lawhawk

Politics. The situation is always...fluid.

491 gegenkritik  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 1:55:36pm

re: #483 Walter L. Newton

It took you some time to get your revenge. It was really fun back then, when you were mad on me for explaining that the pic that Charles used was forged. But since you are a little coward, you had to wait until today, when a mindless mob rules the LGF-threads and is backening you.

Can't even describe how pathetic you are.

492 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 2:01:45pm

re: #491 gegenkritik

Can't even describe how pathetic you are.

I guess that gets added to the long list of things you can't describe. Like a rational basis for any of your views....

493 Zendette  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 2:06:02pm

re: #160 richard12

Nice blog Richard. I look forward to reading it.

494 BARACK THE VOTE  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 2:11:26pm

re: #488 Stanley Sea

It was weird. He started posting some bizarre sentences. As usual I questioned foreign substances.

It was a sock. Suspect tfk, personally.
He didn't flounce, he started calling CJ names and posting various juvenile shit designed to incite. Sock of someone who'd been banned before and was 'having fun'.

495 Bob Levin  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 2:22:48pm

Please excuse that I haven't read the previous comments yet, but this statement is part of a very long song and dance that has been playing since 1973, and there isn't anything different happening here.

I'm choosing the song and dance metaphor carefully, because the diplomacy that we are allowed to see is very much a show and not necessarily reflective of the inner workings and genuine statements made behind closed doors.

However, I do believe that both the administration and the state department are following James Baker's notion of trying to flip Syria out of the Iranian sphere of influence. And yep, that's considered the best idea on the table by everyone concerned.

I also think that President Obama has learned from his predecessor not to anger the State Department. That is a terrible lesson that State succeeded in teaching the executive branch.

496 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 2:23:29pm

re: #491 gegenkritik

It took you some time to get your revenge. It was really fun back then, when you were mad on me for explaining that the pic that Charles used was forged. But since you are a little coward, you had to wait until today, when a mindless mob rules the LGF-threads and is backening you.

Can't even describe how pathetic you are.

A 'mindless mob'? Dude, get real.

497 Bob Levin  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 2:23:41pm

Now I'll pop back to the top and start reading down.

498 JamesWI  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 2:24:45pm

re: #491 gegenkritik

a mindless mob rules the LGF-threads and is backening you.

Nominate for rotating title?

499 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 2:28:01pm

re: #498 JamesWI

Nominate for rotating title?

seconded!

500 Bob Levin  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 3:01:08pm

Ohhh. Not exactly talking about the Middle-East today, are we? Well, since hardly any news comes out of that region, I guess there won't be many opportunities to talk about foreign policy in the coming year.

//

501 bj  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 3:20:45pm

re: #485 cliffster

There was a dude in here not long ago with the nic oldgeezer. He always talked about how old he was. Then one night he did his flounce, out of nowhere - just had been commenting, getting a little socialized, then *poof*. I don't think he was old at all. He was probably just one of the previously banned jackasses socking it. I never really thought he was old.

You can see my user info, nu? I've not been banned in all these years .... so what does your little story have to do with me? That you don't take my word that I am elderly is your problem as are the down dings of your groupies. Feel big better now?

It's a shame what this site has become or is this sort of behavior because Chas is away so the mice will play?

502 littlebenny  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 3:37:50pm

re: #499 wrenchwench

I still prefer "all your bases are belong to us" but I'm weird like that!

503 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 4:32:54pm

re: #491 gegenkritik

Heh, still melting down, I see.

504 What, me worry?  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 4:34:06pm

I hope you don't mind if I comment on a few responses to me, even on a dead thread.

re: #334 simoom

I think what Gen. Patraeus is communicating is that our posture in the Middle East peace process, the perception that we're far from impartial negotiators, and that we're not making any real progress, damages our credibility/relationships with governments we now depend on (intelligence sharing, drone strike permissions, crackdowns on extremists, deployments, security force training, etc) to effectively prosecute the War on Terror.

First of all, we are not impartial. We give money to the Arabs, too. This document outlines U.S. aid to the Palestinians and it has been going on for many years (and I few other interesting tidbits).

Recent U.S. Aid - With the death of Yasir Arafat and the election of Mahmoud Abbas as the newPresident of the Palestinian Authority, there was renewed hope for restarting the dormant Middle East peace process. The United States signaled its commitment to playing an active role by stepping up diplomatic efforts and increasing aid amounts to the Palestinians in order to strengthen Abbas’ efforts to consolidate power inside the PA.

But the Arab world conveniently forgets that.

One could certainly argue the wisdom of such "charity" at any rate. Do we see schools? factories? better homes? Or more guns and equipment. So yes, we treat Israel better. Israel makes the WORLD better. All those folks complaining about the "perception" of the U.S. are doing so from their cell phones and computers largely invented in Israel.

The U.S. and Israel have women's rights. The Arabs don't. The U.S. and Israel don't kill homosexuals. They do. The U.S. and Israel don't marry off our daughters at the age of 10. They do. We have democratic elections. They don't. No one should be ashamed for supporting Israel!

I understand the General needs to rely on certain people for information, but it shouldn't be at the cost of selling Israel down the river.

And that's why I said the nasty thing I said about him. Palin is the same thing, I just wasn't as impassioned about her I guess.

505 HonestAbe  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 5:23:59pm

re: #25 Joo-LiZ

Huh?

Joo-Liz, I take it Alouette was referring to the fact that Hillary has been variously reported as having called Morris or Fray a "f-king Jew bastard".

506 HonestAbe  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 5:39:07pm

Apparently, the Obama administration is now
- negotiating on behalf of the Arabs (a stance detrimental to peace)
- deciding Israeli government policies
- sidelining the Israeli democratic process.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Clinton last week made specific demands of Netanyahu ...

Israel must reverse its approval for construction in Ramat Shlomo, make a "substantial gesture" towards the Palestinians and publicly declare that all of the "core issues" in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, including the status of Jerusalem, be included in upcoming talks.

The three conditions, set by U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in a 43-minute telephone call to Netanyahu on Friday, have not been publicized by the U.S. - but Israel is expected to provide a formal answer on Tuesday, the Post reported.

507 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 5:51:04pm

re: #198 Cineaste

marjoriemoon, Stuart Leviton - you guys updinged this? Care to explain?

I agreed with geg's sarcastic remark about Israel's great crime against humanity by building homes for Jews in the first part of his posting and I dismissed the second part of his message. I have retracted my upding because I do not want to give even the slightest impression that I approve of the personal attacks in that posting.

Just in case, anyone believes I had joined in the personal attacks, I apologize, and if you need a specific apology, please, do let me know so we can have an "internet beer" together. Seriously, please, do let me know so that I can learn, and that your soul can feel clear.

508 HonestAbe  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 5:55:46pm

re: #238 Obdicut

First of all, I'm Sephardic Jewish, and we can remember a time when Muslims and Jews coexisted peacefully.

Most Sephardim and Mizrahim would dispute that statement. Saying "Muslims and Jews coexisted peacefully" is a bit like saying "Plantation owners and Negroes coexisted peacefuly."

For details, I recommend Bat Ye'or or the blogger Bataween:
[Link: jewishrefugees.blogspot.com...]

509 tobariv  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 6:00:11pm

The Arabs practice apartheid--Jews can't live in a part of Jerusalem the Arabs decide is theirs--and that's ok with Hillary, Obama, Biden.The land for peace experiment has failed(Gaza).Repeating the same formula for 60 years is not working. The Arabs can decide to live together in Peace or not. But peace will not come this way.

510 flexthink  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 6:14:07pm

I have to admit that I am dismayed by CJ on this one. I can understand his wanting to give the President the benefit of the doubt because, after all, what other choice do we have? However, like much of the AGW rhetoric, he has chosen to put things that conform to his view that Obama is really pro-Israel and that there is no debate on global warming, even when there are legitmate (and reasoned) concerns on the other side. The fact is that Hillary is nothing but an opportunist (remember how 'pro Israel' she was during the primaries!?!) and that Obama really hates Israel and wants to join the Eurotrash in promoting Anti-Semitism at home (especially through his self-hating Jews) and undermine our relationship with Israel. For more, read this piece in the Jerusalem Post by Isi Leiber, a very moderate Israeli ([Link: www.jpost.com...] I don't doubt for a minute that CJ is a strong supporter of Israel. I just think he needs to realize that, in the case of President Obama, sometimes if it "walks and talks like a duck" (as the cliche goes) it is a duck.

511 Stuart Leviton  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 6:15:25pm

re: #506 HonestAbe

Apparently, the Obama administration is now
- negotiating on behalf of the Arabs (a stance detrimental to peace)
- deciding Israeli government policies
- sidelining the Israeli democratic process.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

That's kindof what I take this spat with Israel to be about. Obama has a solution for ending the Arab-Israeli war and he is trying to implement it. I believe Obama is a foreign policy novice and his naivete might get a bunch of people killed. Clearly, Obama's policy of legitimizing the current Iranian government has contributed to the murdering of protesters.

512 Flavia  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 6:46:48pm

re: #28 Alouette

Just channeling Hillary.

I'm sorry I dinged you up on that remark, now, because I thought you were just being sarcastic re: the White House.

Hillary Clinton was only "quoted" as saying that by a disgruntled staffer; it was never proven and it's unfair to keep saying she ever said it.

513 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 6:56:13pm

re: #508 HonestAbe

No, they really wouldn't. I know my own family history, thanks.

There's historical debate on it, sure. But I am comfortable saying it was better than the treatment by the Christians during that time period.

514 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 6:57:46pm

re: #429 eastsider

That's a pretty big jump from "are there any good muslims" to "you are a murderer."

There are steps between "mass murderer" and "disagrees with portions of Islam."

Cineaste, do you agree with that?

Agree 100%. Funny who is doing the word-twisting here...

515 Cineaste  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 6:59:23pm

re: #507 Stuart Leviton

I agreed with geg's sarcastic remark about Israel's great crime against humanity by building homes for Jews in the first part of his posting and I dismissed the second part of his message. I have retracted my upding because I do not want to give even the slightest impression that I approve of the personal attacks in that posting.

Just in case, anyone believes I had joined in the personal attacks, I apologize, and if you need a specific apology, please, do let me know so we can have an "internet beer" together. Seriously, please, do let me know so that I can learn, and that your soul can feel clear.

Not a problem and certainly no need for an apology. I just wanted to see whether you were updinging the attacks, which you're not. All is forgotten!

516 Flavia  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 7:02:50pm

re: #117 Vreejack

Trying to move the de facto border while negotiations on where the de jure border belongs is usually seen as negotiating in bad faith. Thus the uproar.

I think my problem with the uproar is

a) that this was not a surprise for the US. Israel had voluntarily accepted a 10 month ban - in exchange for what, I might add - and it was up.

b) the buildings are in the Israeli controlled sector anyway (Where did you get the idea that it was moving the border? I don't necessarily blame you - the MSM presents it like this)

c) which country's leader said that we can't tell sovereign nations what to do? (I don't think I need to tell everyone here which one it was)

The fact that I think Israel should just tell the PA to go to hell until they grow up (or that for Israel to negotiate how much MORE land she's going to give the PA in exchange for more terrorism is insane at best!) is an almost negligible consideration in this instance.

517 Querent  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 7:05:25pm

here i am at last, the upding fairy, and i'm looking for snark that makes me grin.

Seems to me like good huntin'...

518 Flavia  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 7:09:55pm

re: #128 jaunte

Anyone know what Biden meant geographically when he referred to a 'contiguous' Palestinian state?

I think he was referring to the fact that where most of the so-called Palestinians are living is in two large blobs, which would have to be connected by a huge road if they got their own state.

Since Israel already tried the "we will give you different land for land that has Jews on it to make 100% of what you've been asking for" back at Wye & got spit on, I don't think there's any chance of telling them, "Look - take the biggest blob, and the surrounding acreage that matches the smaller blob, & SHUT UP!" (Which, in a nutshell, is my favorite solution - if you couldn't guess. Okay, my 2nd favorite - I like the idea of the nations of the Arab Higher Committee having to take them in... (-: )

519 Querent  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 7:16:13pm

re: #82 Joo-LiZ

Somewhat OT:

This is disgusting.


Pictures are posted at the link (Ha'aretz)

FAUSTina?

Blink blink??

520 Querent  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 7:43:33pm

re: #294 oaktree

Nice broad tar-brush you use there. That is what is getting you down-dings and large scale criticism. No nuance, no apparent ability to debate a subject in a reasonable manner.

I'd rather be able to converse effectively in one language than come across as an asshole in ten.

yes indeed the hunting is good tonight.

521 Dr. Shalit  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 7:45:54pm

Lookit' Alll LGF'ers -

Here is the deal - in 1948 after the British Empire "Quit Palestine" - Under PM ATLEE (Labor) - Not Churchill - about a million Arab Muslims - AS - about a million JEWS living in Arab/Muslim Nations Became Refugees. As a comparison, in the SAME Year, More Millions became India/Pakistan AND Pakistan/India Refugees.
In India, Pakistan, and Israel - Refugees have a new name/status - CITIZENS of the nations that they RESIDE in.
"Palestinians" - Have their OWN RACKET - UNRWA - A Unique UN agency Dedicated to Them. Their "Elder Brothers" - The OIL RICH Gulf States such as the "so-called SAUDI" Arabia have given them NEXT TO NOTHING. Israel - Which is to Say - Israel, and US/European, etc. JEWS - Have given the "Palestinian" Arab Much More!
AND - What HAS the Palestinian Arab given Israel at every opportunity? A KICK IN THE NUTS! - see: Gaza Evacuation - Palestinians RIP UP stuff bought for them by US JEWS - AND - BILL GATES - Like a scene out of the SOPRANOS in Newark, NJ - Ripping Up Pipes and Tubing to Sell.
Would Bibi Netanyahu Been PM of Israel during Cast Lead. The Gaza Arabs might have been driven into the Sinai for about 40 or more years to wander around like Blind Horses in a Ditch and with the help of Ha'Shem - Certainly NOT "ALLAH/BA'AL" - Become a RESPECTABLE NATION - AS HAPPENED TO THE "ISRAELITES" - accidentally freed by Pharoah.
That is HISTORY - the way it is - AND - the way I - as a Jewish REVANCHANIST wish would it would have been. Comments?

-S-

522 Dr. Shalit  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 8:09:28pm

re: #521 Dr. Shalit

Revise and Extend -

1. The UNGRATEFUL Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan & King Abdullah II. YO - Abdullah - The Israelis Saved Your Father's ASS in 1970. Without that, YOU Sir would have NO KINGDOM - and likely would have been Hanged by Arafat & Co.
Looking Back, would the Israelis have chosen the "unknown" rather than the "known" enemy. Arafatistan would have been CRUSHED in 1973/4 returning Eretz Yisroel to the boundaries of the Balfour Declaration - More or Less - the Boundaries of the Historic Kingdom of David. Comments?

-S-

523 Effy  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 8:13:06pm

re: #334 simoom

I think what Gen. Patraeus is communicating is that our posture in the Middle East peace process, the perception that we're far from impartial negotiators, and that we're not making any real progress, damages our credibility/relationships with governments we now depend on (intelligence sharing, drone strike permissions, crackdowns on extremists, deployments, security force training, etc) to effectively prosecute the War on Terror.

Gen. Patraeus is saying that when we support Israel it makes the Arab world madder which is not good for our troops in Muslim lands. So to support our troops we should not support Israel. To make our troops even safer we can proclaim "kill a Jew day" at which point they will probably give our troops flowers.

524 Querent  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 8:15:08pm

re: #523 Effy

Gen. Patraeus is saying that when we support Israel it makes the Arab world madder which is not good for our troops in Muslim lands. So to support our troops we should not support Israel. To make our troops even safer we can proclaim "kill a Jew day" at which point they will probably give our troops flowers.

now i'm sure that's sarcasm -- need some extra tags just in case?

525 LittleBenny  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 8:18:30pm

Here's the basic ground rules for any Arab-Israeli story-line, as reported pretty much everywhere. Please note that it's basically the same regardless of who the US president is; like all things political though, actual mileage will vary:

1)The US needs to be perceived as more impartial in the dispute (e.g., come down hard on Israel from time-to-time), because without that, Peace is impossible to realize.
2)When Arab and Muslim "actors" protest something, blow something up or fire rockets at Israel...it's usually all Israel's fault, in some round-about way. Demand a concession from Israel immediately, in order to show goodwill, and bolster the Peace Process.
3) read numbers 1 and 2 again. Repeat. Then make sure all reporting on the "Arab-Israeli Conflict" - and all policy recommendations - follows this general theme. Take no bold risks. Do not deviate...even though this approach has failed for more than 20 years.

Sigh.

526 Dr. Shalit  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 8:21:14pm

re: #523 Effy

Effy -

Assuming that Gen. Patraeus Believes that - he is certainly in the Thought Trend of Gen. George Marshall.
Marshall was WRONG - Long term - as would Patraeus be.
ISLAM, per se, has been an Actual or Potential Enemy of the US since the Days of the Barbary Pirates - SEE - "Shores of Tripoli" - Marine Hymn - Judaism, Not So Much.

-S-

527 Dr. Shalit  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 8:23:20pm

re: #525 LittleBenny

Little Benny -

1. CaCa De Toro.

2. CaCa De Toro.

3. Mas CaCa De Toro.

Ese es Todo!

-S-

528 Bob Levin  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 8:30:25pm

Oil and truth do not mix. Nor does oil mix with conventional notions of right and wrong.

I mean, does anyone care who is an honest broker between India and Pakistan? Or between countries and factions in Africa? Not so much. But add oil to the equation of anything, like building apartments, and you get a slippery slope of a mess.

This is where someone who can draw cartoons shows Uncle Sam spinning his legs on an oil slick in the Middle East.

529 Effy  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 8:30:26pm

re: #524 Querent

now i'm sure that's sarcasm -- need some extra tags just in case?


While I was being sarcastic, Huffpost is running a column explaining why we need to boycott Israel to make our troops safe, using the reasoning above.

530 LittleBenny  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 8:37:12pm

re: #527 Dr. Shalit

It may be BS, but it's exactly what the problem is with US and International policy vis-a-vis the Arab-Israeli conflict. Until the narrative is changed, the policies and ideas for a solution to the conflict won't. Israelis will pay the price, as will the Palestinians...in blood.

The cycle continues...

531 Motti  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 8:41:38pm
U.S. anger over East Jerusalem row is excessive

published in Haaretz no less [Link: www.haaretz.com...]

532 Effy  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 8:42:24pm

re: #525 LittleBenny

you are so right, especially point #2. Exactly what happened in the day of rage today: In 1948, the Jordanian army destroys a synagogue(actually 60 of them) in an act of religious bigotry and pure spite, and now the Palestinians have a "day of rage" because the Israelis have the audacity to undo this wicked destruction? AND it is Israel's fault.

533 HonestAbe  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 9:50:33pm

re: #513 Obdicut

No, they really wouldn't. I know my own family history, thanks.

You and your family are hardly a significantly-sized sample of the world's Sephardim-Mizrahim. JJAC and Shas are far more representative, and I might add far better-informed.

There's historical debate on it, sure.

There's no more "historical debate" about the facts of the Jewish naqba than there is "historical debate" about facts of the the Holocaust.

But I am comfortable saying it was better than the treatment by the Christians during that time period.

More evidence of ignorance. It was the Christian colonial powers in the past several centuries which were the brakes upon the enforcement of Jewish dhimmitude in the Muslim world. That dhimmitude included but was not limited to semi-apartheid, restriction to ghettoes, distinctive or humiliating clothing, lesser legal rights, inferior status, insecurity and precarious position, and (last but not least) pogroms.

The Englightenment led to Jewish emancipation and near-equality in a good portion of the Christian countries (several western European countries, USA, Australia, Canada); not so in the Muslim countries, where medieval attitudes continued.

True, the Muslim world never constructed gas chambers - but then, neither did Holland or the UK. And the enthusaism of the Muslim world for the final solution is well-documented.

So, once again, learn a bit of history before waxing lyrical about mythical Muslim-Jewish coexistence. As suggested, Bat Ye'or's works, and Bataween's blog, are a good place to start.

534 HonestAbe  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:25:24pm

re: #533 HonestAbe

That dhimmitude included but was not limited to semi-apartheid, restriction to ghettoes, distinctive or humiliating clothing, lesser legal rights, inferior status, insecurity and precarious position, and (last but not least) pogroms.

And at that I omitted to mention the minor, trivial little matters of the jizya, of kidnapped Jewish children, of transports, of anti-dhimmi riots, and of forced conversions.

535 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:01:49pm

re: #533 HonestAbe

That's some severe whitewashing you're doing of Christian history there.

I'm not really impressed, sorry.

536 Jerusalemyte  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:19:40pm

Clinton is just doing her master's bidding. The sad thing is that together they are going to get people KILLED sooner or later. Sooner in Israel as the rocks, molotov cocktails and suicide bombers fly or later in Europe or the US as the nut case from Teheran tries out his nuke toy.

537 HonestAbe  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 12:00:09am

re: #535 Obdicut

You're doing your best to divert from the issue - Islam's fourteen centuries of abusing and subjugating Jews (pace your false myth of Muslim-Jewish coexistence).

As documentation of the restraining influence of the colonial powers on Muslim mistreatment of Jews in the nneteenth and twentieth centuries, see both Bat Ye'or's works as well as Satloff's Among the Righteous.

As documentation of the miserable state of Jews in Muslim countries, I have already referred you to material by Bat Ye'or and Bataween (which you seem to ignore, not exactly a testament to your intellectual curiosity).

For that matter, you needn't burden yourself with Bat Yeor's weighty tomes. Just do a three-second net scan:
[Link: middleeastfacts.com...]

538 Laroon  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 12:15:20am

Anyone need any more proof that this US administration does not understand the Israel-Arab situation and that it holds outright contempt for Israel? No, me neither.

The Arabs have no more right to dictate who can live in Jerusalem than Jews do - this "day of rage" that cost the State of Israel millions of shekels is a direct result of Hillary's comments and nothing more. Why on earth would the dedication of a synagogue in the Jewish quarter of the old city suddenly spark violent riots? It wouldn't - it was a big photo op handed to Hamas by none other than the United States.

Caroline Glick put it very well: "It is depressing, and let's face it, a bit scary that the US, which has refused to raise a finger against Iran's nuclear program or any other rogue action by any other US enemy has decided to go after Israel in this fashion."

539 richard12  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 1:40:37am

re: #493 Zendette

Thanks Zendette!

540 bj  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 4:15:42am

Mrs. Clinton's Hissy Fit .... (as usual)

[Link: www.washingtontimes.com...]

541 stayfrosty  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 5:58:09am

I find it telling that despite this most recent remark, the Obama Administration has in the past few days said things and acted in ways toward Israel they would never say or do towards anti-American dictatorships like Iran and Venezuela.

542 Bob Levin  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 6:33:02am

I'll just say it once more--today. All of this makes perfect and logical sense if the overall goal is to try and flip Syria out of Iran's sphere of influence.

James Baker said as much several years ago when President Bush convened his panel of experts to figure out what to do with Iraq and Iran. Baker isn't just another Republican lackey--he is an influential voice in making State Department policy, and President Obama is following State's policy as closely as he can.

Which means that Hillary is doing the same. The Secretary of State follows policy, doesn't make policy. The Secretary of State represents that policy to the President. It's supposed to work in the opposite direction. It doesn't in real life.

Now, is this a good and wise policy? Does it have a chance at succeeding?
C'mon, it's the State Department.

We just have to ride it out, and vote when we have a chance.

In the meantime, Israel has decided to try and cultivate other alliances with other nations besides the United States, and has been doing so for months. This doesn't mean that you will hear overt and clear diplomatic pronouncements about a 'special relationship' between Israel and India for instance, or between Israel and Brazil. But very quietly, based on technology and Israeli expertise in several areas vital to many countries' interests, from this point forward, there will be deepening bonds between Israel and other countries.

543 Sacred Plants  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 10:08:30am

re: #278 gegenkritik

Two and a half minutes into the footage the boy elaborates that he joined one gang because he got attacked by members of the other as a child. Is that the worldview you are trying to convey to this timezone-comprehensive crowd, either as your own experience or that of the people you are trying to represent? A child soldier at heart! Good grief.


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