Hitchens: The Great Catholic Cover-Up

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
Religion • Tue Mar 16, 2010 at 9:50 pm PDT • Views: 692

The investigations into child abuse in Germany’s Catholic schools are continuing to widen, now getting close to Pope Benedict himself, as his brother Georg Ratzinger has been implicated in covering up the systemic child abuse (with the now well-known Catholic Church practice of moving priests around to different parishes) — and he is also accused of physically battering children himself.

Christopher Hitchens has a scathing piece on this true outrage at Slate: The Great Catholic Cover-Up.

There are two separate but related matters here: First, the individual responsibility of the pope in one instance of this moral nightmare and, second, his more general and institutional responsibility for the wider lawbreaking and for the shame and disgrace that goes with it. The first story is easily told, and it is not denied by anybody. In 1979, an 11-year-old German boy identified as Wilfried F. was taken on a vacation trip to the mountains by a priest. After that, he was administered alcohol, locked in his bedroom, stripped naked, and forced to suck the penis of his confessor. (Why do we limit ourselves to calling this sort of thing “abuse”?) The offending cleric was transferred from Essen to Munich for “therapy” by a decision of then-Archbishop Joseph Ratzinger, and assurances were given that he would no longer have children in his care. But it took no time for Ratzinger’s deputy, Vicar General Gerhard Gruber, to return him to “pastoral” work, where he soon enough resumed his career of sexual assault.

It is, of course, claimed, and it will no doubt later be partially un-claimed, that Ratzinger himself knew nothing of this second outrage. I quote, here, from the Rev. Thomas Doyle, a former employee of the Vatican Embassy in Washington and an early critic of the Catholic Church’s sloth in responding to child-rape allegations. “Nonsense,” he says. “Pope Benedict is a micromanager. He’s the old style. Anything like that would necessarily have been brought to his attention. Tell the vicar general to find a better line. What he’s trying to do, obviously, is protect the pope.”

This is common or garden stuff, very familiar to American and Australian and Irish Catholics whose children’s rape and torture, and the cover-up of same by the tactic of moving rapists and torturers from parish to parish, has been painstakingly and comprehensively exposed. It’s on a level with the recent belated admission by the pope’s brother, Monsignor Georg Ratzinger, that while he knew nothing about sexual assault at the choir school he ran between 1964 and 1994, now that he remembers it, he is sorry for his practice of slapping the boys around.

Very much more serious is the role of Joseph Ratzinger, before the church decided to make him supreme leader, in obstructing justice on a global scale. After his promotion to cardinal, he was put in charge of the so-called “Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith” (formerly known as the Inquisition). In 2001, Pope John Paul II placed this department in charge of the investigation of child rape and torture by Catholic priests. In May of that year, Ratzinger issued a confidential letter to every bishop. In it, he reminded them of the extreme gravity of a certain crime. But that crime was the reporting of the rape and torture. The accusations, intoned Ratzinger, were only treatable within the church’s own exclusive jurisdiction. Any sharing of the evidence with legal authorities or the press was utterly forbidden. Charges were to be investigated “in the most secretive way … restrained by a perpetual silence … and everyone … is to observe the strictest secret which is commonly regarded as a secret of the Holy Office … under the penalty of excommunication.” (My italics).

Read the whole thing…

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117 comments

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1 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 9:54:20pm

I have nothing witty to say here. I just want to cry for these children.

2 jaunte  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 9:55:29pm
Not content with shielding its own priests from the law, Ratzinger's office even wrote its own private statute of limitations. The church's jurisdiction, claimed Ratzinger, "begins to run from the day when the minor has completed the 18th year of age" and then lasts for 10 more years. Daniel Shea, the attorney for two victims who sued Ratzinger and a church in Texas, correctly describes that latter stipulation as an obstruction of justice. "You can't investigate a case if you never find out about it. If you can manage to keep it secret for 18 years plus 10, the priest will get away with it."


Time to clean up.

3 Millicent Islam  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 9:55:54pm

This is a case where I really, really hope people will take the advice to read the whole thing, even if they dislike Hitchens intensely, because Hitchens' piece contains many links that people should be aware of before they try to dismiss it.

4 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 9:56:19pm

Might as well call it the Great Abuse Coverup, Charles.

Abuse victims - no matter who their abusers are - are generally required (if the matter goes to private settlement rather than trial) to take the settlement money and then shut the fuck up about it - never mentioning it again in public - from now until the end of the world. Actual legal settlement language.

I know whereof I speak.

5 Bagua  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 9:56:24pm

They Got messed up.


- RLB
6 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 9:56:43pm

The pope's brother is Georg Ratzinger. Pope Benedict's first name is Joseph.

7 Millicent Islam  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 9:58:17pm

re: #4 Cato the Elder

Totally agree, dear Cato-bot. BTW, incoming soros transmission...

8 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:01:35pm

re: #3 iceweasel

This is a case where I really, really hope people will take the advice to read the whole thing, even if they dislike Hitchens intensely, because Hitchens' piece contains many links that people should be aware of before they try to dismiss it.

Yep - just read this, concerning one of the cardinals who voted this Pope into office :

[Link: www.slate.com...]

Wow.

9 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:03:52pm

re: #6 Dark_Falcon

Typo - fixed now.

10 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:07:50pm

re: #4 Cato the Elder

It's a way of shaming and silencing the abuse victims all over again. Here's $60k for twenty years of silence, guilt, and shame - 33 and 9/10ths percent of which goes to your lawyer - and now you must never mention the subject again, on pain of legal action.

And it's done by fathers to daughters and uncles to nephews, every gorram day. So tell me why the gorram Church is so feckin' gorram extra-special culpable when this is the way we run our feckin' legal system?

11 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:10:04pm

re: #9 Charles

Typo - fixed now.

Thank you.

12 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:11:07pm

re: #10 Cato the Elder

It's a way of shaming and silencing the abuse victims all over again. Here's $60k for twenty years of silence, guilt, and shame - 33 and 9/10ths percent of which goes to your lawyer - and now you must never mention the subject again, on pain of legal action.

And it's done by fathers to daughters and uncles to nephews, every gorram day. So tell me why the gorram Church is so feckin' gorram extra-special culpable when this is the way we run our feckin' legal system?

I hate to make a comment like this and run, but I'm promising myself that I will start to make up some of the sleep I lost this weekend.

It's different because they came in the name of God. They claimed to act in his place. I'm not picking on Catholics, I'm just saying that if you take Jesus' name on you (in any religion) you are obligated to behave better than the normal run of human being.

Given that normal human beings do not do this kind of crap to children, they didn't even rise to being normal human beings.

13 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:11:55pm

re: #12 EmmmieG

Wait, too tired--was this a reference to the size of the awards?

14 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:12:05pm

re: #12 EmmmieG

I hate to make a comment like this and run, but I'm promising myself that I will start to make up some of the sleep I lost this weekend.

It's different because they came in the name of God. They claimed to act in his place. I'm not picking on Catholics, I'm just saying that if you take Jesus' name on you (in any religion) you are obligated to behave better than the normal run of human being.

Given that normal human beings do not do this kind of crap to children, they didn't even rise to being normal human beings.

Fathers and uncles come (nasty pun intended) in the name of family. I see no moral difference whatsoever.

15 Millicent Islam  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:12:50pm

This is the part that people really must read and reread, from Charles's excerpt:

In May of that year, Ratzinger issued a confidential letter to every bishop. In it, he reminded them of the extreme gravity of a certain crime. But that crime was the reporting of the rape and torture. The accusations, intoned Ratzinger, were only treatable within the church’s own exclusive jurisdiction. Any sharing of the evidence with legal authorities or the press was utterly forbidden. Charges were to be investigated “in the most secretive way … restrained by a perpetual silence … and everyone … is to observe the strictest secret which is commonly regarded as a secret of the Holy Office … under the penalty of excommunication.”



And this, from the article:

Not content with shielding its own priests from the law, Ratzinger's office even wrote its own private statute of limitations. The church's jurisdiction, claimed Ratzinger, "begins to run from the day when the minor has completed the 18th year of age" and then lasts for 10 more years. Daniel Shea, the attorney for two victims who sued Ratzinger and a church in Texas, correctly describes that latter stipulation as an obstruction of justice. "You can't investigate a case if you never find out about it. If you can manage to keep it secret for 18 years plus 10, the priest will get away with it."

16 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:13:45pm

re: #12 EmmmieG

Given that normal human beings do not do this kind of crap to children, they didn't even rise to being normal human beings.

And once again I find myself obliged to object to the idea that there is such a thing as the "normal human" or "normal human behavior". All the evidence points the other way.

17 freetoken  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:15:26pm

Hitchens may be concerned about sex crimes in the RC church, but the always faithful WND has isolated the true evil today in American Society: The Girl Scouts.

That's right, the headline at WND right now is back to picking on the Girl Scouts (for their promotion of safe sex practices.)

Church leaders abusing boys around the world - not a peep. Girl Scouts discussing contraception - headline evil. It's an upside down world over in wingnutville.

18 The Shadow Do  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:16:02pm

Does anyone know what this does to the children?

I do.

19 Bagua  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:16:34pm

Organised crime at this level is difficult to prosecute as with such elaborate criminal enterprises there is often layers of conspiracy and secrecy which protect the higher ups.

In the US, Congress passed the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) Act to address this difficulty. The hierarchy of the Catholic Church would appear the perfect candidates for RICO Act investigations and prosecutions in the US for crimes under their jurisdiction.

Considering the international scope and breath of the crimes a Hague tribunal would seem an appropriate venue. Surely for no less an offense than Crimes against humanity.

20 Olsonist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:17:02pm

re: #14 Cato the Elder

I believe you're thinking of something along the line of color of authority. These people in some sense are responsible for the children and have authority over them.

BTW, it isn't the legal system which is to blame in this international case. It is the religious system, the Catholic Church. Since the Church is an autocracy, don't expect change from below other than people leaving the Church.

21 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:18:10pm

re: #14 Cato the Elder

Fathers and uncles come (nasty pun intended) in the name of family. I see no moral difference whatsoever.

I'll have to think about this one. Given my religion, family is a very emotionally loaded word.

22 freetoken  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:18:29pm

re: #19 Bagua

I thought churches were immune to RICO (for activities within the church)?

23 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:18:39pm

re: #20 Olsonist

I believe you're thinking of something along the line of color of authority. These people in some sense are responsible for the children and have authority over them.

BTW, it isn't the legal system which is to blame in this international case. It is the religious system, the Catholic Church. Since the Church is an autocracy, don't expect change from below other than people leaving the Church.

And uncles, and fathers? And brothers and cousins?

And gynecologists?

Blow it out your ass.

24 Aye Pod  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:18:50pm
The Roman Catholic Church is headed by a mediocre Bavarian bureaucrat once tasked with the concealment of the foulest iniquity, whose ineptitude in that job now shows him to us as a man personally and professionally responsible for enabling a filthy wave of crime.

Ordinarily one would expect someone who did something like this to be investigated, prosecuted etc. But I guess being Pope gives one a rather large Piety Pass.

25 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:19:37pm

Seriously now, going to bed so the better to deal with my own boys in the morning.

26 Ojoe  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:20:03pm
The accusations, intoned Ratzinger, were only treatable within the church’s own exclusive jurisdiction. Any sharing of the evidence with legal authorities or the press was utterly forbidden.

This is no good at all anymore, to have church law and church courts as a parallel to the civil law and courts, in areas of the abuse of children.

27 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:20:14pm

re: #19 Bagua

Organised crime at this level is difficult to prosecute as with such elaborate criminal enterprises there is often layers of conspiracy and secrecy which protect the higher ups.

In the US, Congress passed the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) Act to address this difficulty. The hierarchy of the Catholic Church would appear the perfect candidates for RICO Act investigations and prosecutions in the US for crimes under their jurisdiction.

Considering the international scope and breath of the crimes a Hague tribunal would seem an appropriate venue. Surely for no less an offense than Crimes against humanity.

Good point, but the US part of that will not happen. The Catholic Church simply has too much political support. Any US Attorney trying a RICO prosecution (given the forfeiture laws involved) would be ordered to back off to prevent a backlash.

28 Lidane  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:20:38pm

re: #17 freetoken

Church leaders abusing boys around the world - not a peep. Girl Scouts discussing contraception - headline evil. It's an upside down world over in wingnutville.

Clearly a woman being taught about her body and how to take control of her sexuality is far more dangerous than a systematic pattern of clerical abuse and cover-ups. =P

29 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:21:17pm

re: #17 freetoken

ha!
Girl Scouts taught how to be 'hot'
Cookie dealing harlots!

30 Olsonist  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:22:23pm

re: #23 Cato the Elder

You misunderstood me. I'll try again. I was trying to expand on what you were saying. Hitchens was talking about the Church and I think the Church is fully to blame, not the court system. As for pedophiles within a family, that a settlement would be involved rather than a rifle is beyond me. Some things I just can't understand.

31 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:22:56pm

re: #24 Jimmah

Ordinarily one would expect someone who did something like this to be investigated, prosecuted etc. But I guess being Pope gives one a rather large Piety Pass.

I wouldn't call Pope Benedict a bureaucrat. He's an enforcer who got the top job. He does his work with a pen instead of a gun, but that does not change his fundamental role. I actually have mostly approved of him acting in such a role. Not this time. This time he clearly played the cover-up game and innocents paid the price.

32 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:24:25pm

re: #18 The Shadow Do

Does anyone know what this does to the children?

I do.

It's very sad on many different levels. Even beyond the personal human suffering this could very well lead to the decline of Christianity in the West.

33 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:24:54pm

re: #17 freetoken

Hitchens may be concerned about sex crimes in the RC church, but the always faithful WND has isolated the true evil today in American Society: The Girl Scouts.

That's right, the headline at WND right now is back to picking on the Girl Scouts (for their promotion of safe sex practices.)

Church leaders abusing boys around the world - not a peep. Girl Scouts discussing contraception - headline evil. It's an upside down world over in wingnutville.

You can call Joseph Farrah Ramses, cause he's the King of Denial.

34 Ojoe  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:28:09pm

I hope this thread gets a lot of posts.

Good Night All.

35 Millicent Islam  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:28:22pm

re: #31 Dark_Falcon

I wouldn't call Pope Benedict a bureaucrat. He's an enforcer who got the top job. He does his work with a pen instead of a gun, but that does not change his fundamental role. I actually have mostly approved of him acting in such a role. Not this time. This time he clearly played the cover-up game and innocents paid the price.

DF, if you read the whole article and look at the links, as I did earlier today when Jimmah told me about this article, you'll see that it's extremely distressing. Not just for the obvious reasons, and the systematic coverup that we all know has been going on for some time, but about Benedict himself.

In truth, I personally did not like Benedict as Pope, purely for other reasons-- the guy is no Pope John Paul II.
But the subtitle to Hitchens' piece is "The pope's entire career has the stench of evil about it." and he makes a damn good case for that.
My prior mere dislike of benedict's policies is now something more like revulsion for the man himself. Just horrible stuff.

36 Ojoe  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:28:46pm

And thanks for posting this Charles.

37 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:30:30pm

re: #30 Olsonist

As for pedophiles within a family, that a settlement would be involved rather than a rifle is beyond me. Some things I just can't understand.

Let me explain it in words of one syllable or more.

When you are a child, your word means nothing. Nothing.

If Uncle Frederick does something creepy to you, you are as likely to have your mouth washed out with soap as be taken seriously.

And when you grow up and take Uncle Frederick to court, you are as likely to have your momma, uncle's sister, appear against you as a a hostile witness as to be taken seriously.

Of course, the same applies to priests. I'm not doubting that.

The goal, in almost all cases, is the same, however.

Sweep the complaint under the carpet, with a dollup of dollars, and save the [family] [church] [institutional] reputation, as far as possible. And this is aided and abetted by the structure of our legal system.

And it applies above all in cases of abuse.

38 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:30:47pm

re: #35 iceweasel

DF, if you read the whole article and look at the links, as I did earlier today when Jimmah told me about this article, you'll see that it's extremely distressing. Not just for the obvious reasons, and the systematic coverup that we all know has been going on for some time, but about Benedict himself.

In truth, I personally did not like Benedict as Pope, purely for other reasons-- the guy is no Pope John Paul II.
But the subtitle to Hitchens' piece is "The pope's entire career has the stench of evil about it." and he makes a damn good case for that.
My prior mere dislike of benedict's policies is now something more like revulsion for the man himself. Just horrible stuff.

I'll make sure to read it. If not tonight, then tomorrow.

39 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:32:03pm

re: #18 The Shadow Do

Does anyone know what this does to the children?

I do.

So do I.

Witnessed over and over with my own eyes, from talking to abuse victims. No matter who the abuser was.

40 cliffster  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:33:21pm

Hey folks - just dropping by and saw this very unfortunate bit posted. Sucks ass. I always though John Paul lived up to the office, and I wondered how his shoes would be filled. Apparently they weren't. Or maybe I was wrong about JP. Whatever.. very disappointing. I hope God has mercy on these shitheads. And I hope God has very good things in store for the children they hurt. It takes a lot to make up for that sort of hurt.

42 cliffster  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:34:50pm

re: #39 Cato the Elder

yep

43 Millicent Islam  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:35:02pm

re: #38 Dark_Falcon

I'll make sure to read it. If not tonight, then tomorrow.

I know you will. I was thinking about this earlier, and you are consistently one of the most reasonable people here. People like you are the reason I come here-- you have a vastly different viewpoint from mine, I learn from you all the time, and I know you can always be counted on to seriously ponder points made by others, read links provided, change your mind when warranted, and be completely forthright and honest always.

The Hitchens piece contains a great deal of scathing comment, but it needs to be read in full and the links he provides need to be read as well. It really upset me earlier today, but I think it's so important.

44 Lidane  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:37:40pm

re: #35 iceweasel

My prior mere dislike of benedict's policies is now something more like revulsion for the man himself. Just horrible stuff.

I've never liked Pope Palpatine. Ever. Now I just have more reasons why.

45 Millicent Islam  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:40:21pm

re: #37 Cato the Elder

I don't think Olsonist was disagreeing with you in any way, beloved Cato-bot. I think in his 20 he was just trying to elaborate on your point.

46 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:41:08pm

You know, even though Ratzinger was re: #35 iceweasel

In truth, I personally did not like Benedict as Pope, purely for other reasons-- the guy is no Pope John Paul II.
But the subtitle to Hitchens' piece is "The pope's entire career has the stench of evil about it." and he makes a damn good case for that.
My prior mere dislike of benedict's policies is now something more like revulsion for the man himself. Just horrible stuff.

To a great extent I agree, but I have a problem with the movement to literally beatify John Paul II, or even praise him by comparison. Lest we forget, pretty much all of this shit went down under his watch.

I never like Ratzinger, even choosing the name Benedict struck me as a nod to the St. Malachy prophecy crazies. That seems like the kind of dangerous nut-baggery that a sane and responsible newly elected Pope would go out of his way to avoid.

47 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:42:22pm

Well, and just so everyone knows, none of my above comments were meant to exclude or exempt "my" Church from criticism.

Wet dreams, all.

48 Millicent Islam  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:44:42pm

re: #46 goddamnedfrank


To a great extent I agree, but I have a problem with the movement to literally beatify John Paul II, or even praise him by comparison. Lest we forget, pretty much all of this shit went down under his watch.

I never like Ratzinger, even choosing the name Benedict struck me as a nod to the St. Malachy prophecy crazies. That seems like the kind of dangerous nut-baggery that a sane and responsible newly elected Pope would go out of his way to avoid.

Yeah, I do agree.
I have a lot of criticisms of JP II myself, but he did do a lot of great work. Put it this way, i was pleasantly surprised by a lot of what he did.

49 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:48:24pm

re: #47 Cato the Elder

Well, and just so everyone knows, none of my above comments were meant to exclude or exempt "my" Church from criticism.

Wet dreams, all.

Sleep well, Cato.

50 swamprat  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:50:26pm

The offending priests should have been excommunicated on sight!

51 Silvergirl  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:53:30pm

Splitting the sheets in a few minutes, but saw that it says this article is from Salon. The link takes you to Slate, so Charles may want to correct.

*yawn, stretch*

Good-night moon.

52 Irenicum  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 10:57:15pm

Evil is evil no matter who does it.

Period.

And with that, g'nite.

53 Expand Your Ground  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:01:43pm

When you have a heirarchy in which all authority emanatesfrom the top down, you also have to accept that all responsibility also flows to the top of the heap.

From what I hear, it was pretty much SOP in the Catholic Chuch in Germany and Austria that a child molester simply got transferred to another parish if h got caught and if he persisted, sent on a mission to Africa or elsewhere in the undeveloped world.

54 okonkolo  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:02:13pm

How odd that I just posted this to my blog (which usually doesn't contain this sort of thing) and then I come here and here it is. I second Iceweasel's recommendation to give it a good read and click through on a couple of the links. Hitchens can be an arrogant pr*ck, but the snark is lightly sprinkled on this one, and the devastating take-down he has written is devastating because of known facts.

Blind faith and unquestioned authority are a recipe for abuse. Next to murder, the crimes enabled by the church's leadership are the worst kind. That they were enabled by moral authority is doubly repugnant, and that the same men who have covered up things like child rape have the audacity to point fingers at the behavior of others is, well, i don't have the words at the moment.

55 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:04:35pm

re: #53 ralphieboy

When you have a heirarchy in which all authority emanatesfrom the top down, you also have to accept that all responsibility also flows to the top of the heap.

From what I hear, it was pretty much SOP in the Catholic Chuch in Germany and Austria that a child molester simply got transferred to another parish if h got caught and if he persisted, sent on a mission to Africa or elsewhere in the undeveloped world.

Pedo's piss me off... pedo's in robes just add that extra 'oomph' to my pissed offness.

56 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:06:43pm

Hi everyone.

Just got here, read the post. Now I'm angry.

Catholic all my life, and after this year (tons of anti-gay statements from high ranking clergy) and then this week (lesbian parents of expelled kid, Kennedy told not to take communion (thanks Stewart; I had missed that one), and then this story), I don't know if I am anymore.

I'd put a sad face emoticon, but that seems too trivial for such evil.

57 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:07:41pm

re: #37 Cato the Elder

It's the cover-up, Cato. That's why the church is being rightly held to accounts. It's the cover-up.

58 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:08:43pm

re: #56 torrentprime

Hi everyone.

Just got here, read the post. Now I'm angry.

Catholic all my life, and after this year (tons of anti-gay statements from high ranking clergy) and then this week (lesbian parents of expelled kid, Kennedy told not to take communion (thanks Stewart; I had missed that one), and then this story), I don't know if I am anymore.

I'd put a sad face emoticon, but that seems too trivial for such evil.

Times like that, I look at the theology and say to myself, "Self, the people attempting to practice the theology suck, but the theology is still marginally sound...at times." I don't think you gotta jump ship just yet...I think.

59 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:09:47pm

re: #57 Obdicut

It's the cover-up, Cato. That's why the church is being rightly held to accounts. It's the cover-up.

And the cover-up is universal, whether it's the Catholic Church, a preschool in Alabama, or your first-cousin'a-once-removed family's favorite uncle.

60 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:11:01pm

re: #59 Cato the Elder

And the cover-up is universal, whether it's the Catholic Church, a preschool in Alabama, or your first-cousin'a-once-removed family's favorite uncle.

ΠΙΜΦ: ...cousin's...

You can tell I'm pissed off when I don't ΠΙΜΦ.

61 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:11:53pm

re: #58 Oh no...Sand People!

Times like that, I look at the theology and say to myself, "Self, the people attempting to practice the theology suck, but the theology is still marginally sound...at times." I don't think you gotta jump ship just yet...I think.

You're right, of course. And yet...

I had a conversation recently with someone I knew from one of the many Catholic schools I attended. He's in ministry now, and after a recent night of drinking he confided he's been an atheist for years.

I'm guess I'm just down in the theological dumps right now.

62 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:14:25pm

re: #61 torrentprime

You're right, of course. And yet...

I had a conversation recently with someone I knew from one of the many Catholic schools I attended. He's in ministry now, and after a recent night of drinking he confided he's been an atheist for years.

I'm guess I'm just down in the theological dumps right now.

Don't dismiss your faith. Rather, stand and do your level best to keep this from happening. This is something the Church can get over, but not until it is forced to do so.

63 Bagua  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:15:33pm

re: #27 Dark_Falcon

Good point, but the US part of that will not happen. The Catholic Church simply has too much political support. Any US Attorney trying a RICO prosecution (given the forfeiture laws involved) would be ordered to back off to prevent a backlash.

I believe it is more a question of perception than standing. One tends to associate RICO Act prosecutions with organisations like the Mafia whose intent we assume is bad, whereas the Church is presumed to be organised for good activities and worship.

The Catholic Church has no right to harbour or protect criminals from prosecution, nor does it claim such anymore in its own Canon Law. It's been ages since anyone could escape the law via sanctuary. Though they now are shielded from prosecution for sheltering illegal immigrants.

64 cliffster  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:15:38pm

re: #59 Cato the Elder

And the cover-up is universal, whether it's the Catholic Church, a preschool in Alabama, or your first-cousin'a-once-removed family's favorite uncle.

That once-removed uncle is also someone's brother, and someone's dad. And someone's son -- and I'll bet his Mother would be very disappointed at the damage he causes to his nephew, niece, brother, daughter, and who knows who else.

65 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:17:22pm

re: #64 cliffster

That once-removed uncle is also someone's brother, and someone's dad. And someone's son -- and I'll bet his Mother would be very disappointed at the damage he causes to his nephew, niece, brother, daughter, and who knows who else.

Yet I am still shocked as to the mental contortions that 'blood' has for defending it's own at the expense of the abused...who in a lot of cases is also 'blood'. Strange dynamic..

66 torrentprime  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:18:53pm

Falcon, sand people,
Thanks to you both. G'nite.

67 Millicent Islam  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:20:36pm

re: #56 torrentprime

Hi everyone.

Just got here, read the post. Now I'm angry.

Catholic all my life, and after this year (tons of anti-gay statements from high ranking clergy) and then this week (lesbian parents of expelled kid, Kennedy told not to take communion (thanks Stewart; I had missed that one), and then this story), I don't know if I am anymore.

I'd put a sad face emoticon, but that seems too trivial for such evil.

I am so desperately sorry for your situation.
I mentioned in another thread tonight that although I'm an atheist now I was raised Catholic, very Catholic, -- when I read this article the first thoughts and emotions I had were about how my prior Catholic self would respond to it, and to imagine all my friends and family who are Catholic.
My first response was a Catholic response, -- what I recognised was that this would destroy my faith in profound ways, if I still had it.

I am so angry, sad, and appalled by all this.

I love with a passion put to use
In my old griefs, and with my childhood's faith.
I love thee with a love I seemed to lose
With my lost saints


For me, it's like losing that all over again. I lost that faith a long time ago, but I've always envied those who could still keep faith, and this pains me so much.
I'm so sorry.

68 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:22:41pm

OK, I said I was going to bed, and wished you all wet dreams!

But I lied.

I had to find this for you first.

A Catholic grrrl from Croatia, who studied guitar here in my hame toune, but started when she was a child barely able to hold a 3/4 guitar. Mira!

And this is Ana today.

She comes often to Baltimore for concerts. One day you will all bow down and worship!

Dirty story for them that likes 'em: One time she gave a concert and her spaghetti-strap dress hitched up a bit above the usual. All the boyz in the hall kept creeping lower and lower with the heads. All the grrlz kept whackin' 'em.

A little innocent fun.

So it goes.

69 cliffster  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:23:14pm

re: #65 Oh no...Sand People!

It's not that strange, really. When someone that you love very much behaves in such a way, what are you to do? It's an untenable position.

70 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:25:00pm

Robert the Bruce: Lands, titles, men, power, nothing.
Robert's Father: Nothing?
Robert the Bruce: I have nothing. Men fight for me because if they do not, I throw them off my land and I starve their wives and their children. Those men who bled the ground red at Falkirk, they fought for William Wallace, and he fights for something that I never had. And I took it from him, when I betrayed him. I saw it in his face on the battlefield and it's tearing me apart.
Robert's Father: All men betray. All lose heart.
Robert the Bruce: I don't wanna lose heart. I wanna believe as he does.

71 Lidane  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:26:42pm

re: #56 torrentprime

Hi everyone.

Just got here, read the post. Now I'm angry.

Catholic all my life, and after this year (tons of anti-gay statements from high ranking clergy) and then this week (lesbian parents of expelled kid, Kennedy told not to take communion (thanks Stewart; I had missed that one), and then this story), I don't know if I am anymore.

I'd put a sad face emoticon, but that seems too trivial for such evil.

If I hadn't lost my own faith many years ago, I'd probably be where you are right now. I sympathize with what you're going through.

72 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:27:10pm

re: #69 cliffster

It's not that strange, really. When someone that you love very much behaves in such a way, what are you to do? It's an untenable position.

Have the intellectual decency and honour to throw them under the bus.

73 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:33:34pm

re: #72 Oh no...Sand People!

Have the intellectual decency and honour to throw them under the bus.

Not everyone can do that. That David Kazinski was able to turn in his brother was a remarkable thing. Most times people stay with their blood and throw 'the other' under the bus. In many ways, doing so is a survival instinct, and those frequently trump all honor or decency.

74 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Mar 16, 2010 11:40:05pm

Sleep beckons. Take care everyone.

75 theheat  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 1:53:57am

Unfortunately, if Pope Benedict himself was found guilty of abuse, I doubt it would change the systematic coverup of abuse the church has become famous for. It would only be a blip of static on the radar, dealt with like any other PR mess.

I said it before: if the church was a certain model of car, it would have been recalled long ago.

I know many decent, normal, wonderful Catholics. But I believe they'd be decent, normal, and wonderful people without belonging to an organization controlled at the highest level by a bunch of secretive, closeted, dishonest, maladjusted child molesters and their protectors. Actually, they're decent in spite of it. In my eyes, they're much better representatives of their faith than those who choose to dictate the rules the decent people follow.

Church fail.

76 Millicent Islam  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 3:06:50am

re: #72 Oh no...Sand People!

Have the intellectual decency and honour to throw them under the bus.

It isn't that easy. I would ask all non-Catholics who read this to bear in mind one of the reasons for the existence of Protestantism and the Reformation.

The Catholic priest is literally the mediator of the faith and of the religion. He dispenses the sacraments and is the conduit to God. He hears confession and grants you absolution-- he decrees your penance. You don't get to deal with God directly-- the priest is the representative of God.
That why this is so much worse for Catholics than a pastor who is abusive. This is also why the culture of abuse, secrecy and shame could flourish.

The victims can't throw the priest 'under the bus'. Neither can their families. When those kids were abused, they weren't merely abused by someone who had power over them, but by someone who in the teachings is standing in for Christ himself.

Sorry for the drama and theological sloppiness in that description, but I think it's important that non-catholics reading this understand the special horror of this abuse-- it's one reason why the coverup has always worked so well.

77 laZardo  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 3:46:42am

re: #75 theheat

I know many decent, normal, wonderful Catholics. But I believe they'd be decent, normal, and wonderful people without belonging to an organization controlled at the highest level by a bunch of secretive, closeted, dishonest, maladjusted child molesters and their protectors. Actually, they're decent in spite of it. In my eyes, they're much better representatives of their faith than those who choose to dictate the rules the decent people follow.

Hypocritical in their willing ignorance.

78 Expand Your Ground  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 4:56:35am

The Vatican is putting out its talking points now, pointing out that "90 percent of child abuse takes place in the family".

But family members are also subject to prosecution if they attempt to hide or cover up abuse...

79 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 5:34:55am

re: #59 Cato the Elder

That's not true, Cato. It's simply not. Many places turn people in. Many places don't have an entire system set up to shield the offenders.

I'm sorry.

80 peterb  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 5:40:28am

Yeah, I agree with those who have observed that the shocking thing here is not that some priests are pedophiles - and be honest, everyone knows that if you become a priest, you were sexually maladapted to begin with - but that the Church has thrown its entire weight behind shielding the perps from any justice whatsoever. And no, Cato, this is not the same as family members (wrongly) willfully ignoring Uncle Bob having molested their grandkid. It's the difference between someone not telling the police that Uncle Bob did something vs. holing the whole family up in a bunk with guns and ammo, and threatening to shoot anyone who leaves.

81 peterb  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 5:41:01am

er: holing the whole family up in a bunker, obviously.

82 Expand Your Ground  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 5:41:46am

I like "bunk"...

83 Expand Your Ground  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 5:44:50am

The Vatican is going to go to great lengths to distract from the root causes of this problem, which are, in my mind, priestly celibacy and the strict heirarchical structure of the Church.

They will not reform either of these aspects without a lot of pressure, from within the church as well as from outside.

84 theheat  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 6:00:15am

re: #77 laZardo

The faithful sometimes pick and choose what to follow, and what to ignore, in pursuit of what they feel is the greater good. To hold their feet to the fire about every little aspect of their faith, would effectively mean you can't tolerate them having any of it.

As an atheist, I find the whole lot of it incredible. But I mentally draws the line at dissecting people who have faith, and discounting them all as mere idiots, because at face value, they're already better than that.

Or, as a friend once told me, "Let that shit sail."

85 Millicent Islam  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 6:06:42am

re: #79 Obdicut

That's not true, Cato. It's simply not. Many places turn people in. Many places don't have an entire system set up to shield the offenders.

Obdi, Cato is talking about the culture of silence around the sexual abuse of children. He's right. It exists. It is major factor that the perpetrators exploit. You are right that some people get turned in, but Cato is talking about the power imbalance and the secrecy that always exists in such situations, whether it is institutionalised or not. Families can perpetuate such a culture of silence, for example.

86 Tigger2005  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 6:06:42am

The Catholic Church is going to have to go through an internal reformation on a scale of its house-cleaning that enabled it to survive the rise of Protestantism. Otherwise I don't know how it can avoid becoming irrelevant. The current Pope now has no moral authority whatsoever...I don't know what business he has anymore lecturing other countries on their moral failings.

87 Millicent Islam  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 6:09:21am

re: #80 peterb

and be honest, everyone knows that if you become a priest, you were sexually maladapted to begin with

Um, what?

I could agree with much of what you said, but that statement isn't true.

88 theheat  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 6:09:23am

re: #86 Tigger2005

I don't know what business he has anymore lecturing other countries on their moral failings.

Try tradition.

89 butterick  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 6:09:32am

re: #78 ralphieboy

The Vatican is putting out its talking points now, pointing out that "90 percent of child abuse takes place in the family".

And does a two thousand year old institution self-styled as God's representatives on earth help cover up for Uncle Touchy too?

90 Tigger2005  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 6:09:54am

re: #83 ralphieboy

The Vatican is going to go to great lengths to distract from the root causes of this problem, which are, in my mind, priestly celibacy...

The root cause of this problem is that pedophiles become priests so they can have authority over, and easy access to, children. It has nothing to do with celibacy and sexual frustration...if it did the priests would just go to adult prostitutes. Why is this so hard for some people to see?

91 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 6:19:31am

Would allowing Priests to marry make a difference? I think it would have a positive impact, but not completely solve the problem.

92 Millicent Islam  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 6:19:31am

re: #90 Tigger2005

The root cause of this problem is that pedophiles become priests teachers, boy scout leaders, janitors in elementary schools, so they can have authority over, and easy access to, children.

No. Paedophiles will often choose professions that put them in contact with children or give them access to children. Not all priests are paedophiles any more than all teachers are.

93 theheat  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 6:23:00am

re: #90 Tigger2005

I'm on the fence about that. For one, the church doesn't condone going to adult prostitutes and more than having sex with children. None of that is okay, which makes for a secretive and unhealthy atmosphere about sex, period. Access to children being easier than access to prostitutes, there is more opportunity. And, I'm not sure I buy them already being pedophiles, and attracted the the priesthood because of it. I think many of them probably aren't even sure about their sexuality until opportunity and familiarity steers them in the direction of children.

94 theheat  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 6:23:52am

re: #93 theheat

PIMF any more than

95 Millicent Islam  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 6:24:59am

re: #91 _RememberTonyC

Would allowing Priests to marry make a difference? I think it would have a positive impact, but not completely solve the problem.

I think it would.
One reason (not the only one) for this problem is that enrollment in seminaries has been dropping off for years. So now the screening for getting in is much more lax.
I think catholic priests should be able to marry, and I also think that women should be able to be priests in the catholic church.

One of the root causes here is that the Catholic Church disparages women and sex itself. I do not want to hurt Catholics here by saying that, but it is true.

96 Obdicut  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 6:32:00am

re: #85 iceweasel

Sure. It's still not comparable. It's like saying spousal abuse is comparable to systematic abuse in the prisons.

97 laZardo  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 6:56:33am

re: #84 theheat

The faithful sometimes pick and choose what to follow, and what to ignore, in pursuit of what they feel is the greater good. To hold their feet to the fire about every little aspect of their faith, would effectively mean you can't tolerate them having any of it.

As an atheist, I find the whole lot of it incredible. But I mentally draws the line at dissecting people who have faith, and discounting them all as mere idiots, because at face value, they're already better than that.

Or, as a friend once told me, "Let that shit sail."

I normally draw the line between faith and the personality of the believer too, but when you have an entire culture of silence around a certain faith, it's almost like Scientology. Sometimes the silence of most implies damning consent.

98 Expand Your Ground  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 7:16:21am

re: #97 laZardo

One of the reasons that Scientology is still not recognized as a church in Germany is their lack of transparency in their financial doings.

If the standard of transparency were to be applied sonsistently, it would bode poorly for the Catholic Church.

99 filetandrelease  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 7:20:23am

This is but one reason that though I believe in God, I also believe that religion is Man's interpretation of God.

They all can't be right, so they must all be wrong.

Just an opinion, we all have them.

100 Lidane  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 7:36:58am

re: #91 _RememberTonyC

Would allowing Priests to marry make a difference? I think it would have a positive impact, but not completely solve the problem.

It would have a positive impact in terms of expanding the number of people who would join the priesthood. That's something the Church desperately needs, but it wouldn't do anything to solve the problem of paedophile priests, or the institutional cover-up of their crimes.

The issue here isn't priestly celibacy. The issue is known abusers being shielded from any accountability for their actions at the highest levels of the Church hierarchy.

101 Sacred Plants  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 8:37:15am

re: #32 Killgore Trout

It's very sad on many different levels. Even beyond the personal human suffering this could very well lead to the decline of Christianity in the West.

Maybe the decision of the Pope to deal with the child abuse reappraisal by means of a shield against government procedures has something to do with the fact that this is the son of a policeman. Is there any plausible way to assume that his older brother had got accustomed with the malpractice of slapping the boys around somewhere else than in the family? The biggest share of that generation of German police is known for much worse.

When something seems to go wrong in a family, the priest would be the manifest adult for the lonely child to talk to. The idea that a government official could fill that role becomes openly absurd as soon as the child comes from a government official family. Maybe this is part of why the Pope has reiterated once and again his opposition against clerical families at least in his own Church. Or why his country of origin is being governed by a child of a priest (Protestant of course).

The point is not that the decision to shield something against government procedures would be always wrong. There are many situations where a shield against government procedures is a sacred necessity, such as when sacrilegous legislation is being prescribed, although this may not be the case in this instance, or might have been dropped at some point in time. The point is if you need to shield something against government procedures, you have to be better than the government or risk failure.

102 Expand Your Ground  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 8:55:48am

Hiding Jews in the attic is one thing. Hiding Pederasts in a Monastery is another.

103 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 9:40:36am

re: #102 ralphieboy

Hiding Jews in the attic is one thing. Hiding Pederasts in a Monastery is another.

If that monastery had no boys within two hundred miles and was located on a remote and difficult to get off of mountaintop, I say go for it.

104 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 10:19:09am

re: #14 Cato the Elder

This is a specific reply to what Cato said, and not a general statement. I needed time to think, and I don't think well when tired.

Cato: I realized that I cannot ever evaluate the question of whether it is worse for a priest to betray his charges or a father to betray his children. In my faith, there is no split between the priesthood and the general population of the church. My father, my husband, my brothers, my son, all hold the priesthood. The man who blessed me as an infant, baptized me as a child and confirmed me shortly thereafter was my father. My husband has done this for my children. When I want a priesthood blessing, I go to my family (and the church directs us to do so, as opposed to seeking out some prominent church leader.) [Marriage is only done by bishops or other men specifically designated to do so, but it's also the only ordinance that the law gets involved in.]

The leader of our local congregation (bishop) is called for five to seven years, and steps down when his time is done. It is not a paid profession, and he is not seen as being different in any way from the other men of the congregation; in fact some of them were once the bishop.

Consequently, I don't see a man who holds the priesthood as being different. I would say that my father had a double duty, both in his priesthood and as a father. To get personal, he is a great father to me and my siblings. (The fact that I am nearly 40 doesn't make him less my father.)

This is nothing more than an explanation of why I cannot mentally separate father from priest, although I do understand that some other faiths would definitely have two different perspectives.

105 Sacred Plants  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 10:22:10am

re: #103 EmmmieG

If that monastery had no boys within two hundred miles and was located on a remote and difficult to get off of mountaintop, I say go for it.

Geographically this is more like Mt 4 than Mt 17.

106 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 10:29:12am

re: #80 peterb

[...] and be honest, everyone knows that if you become a priest, you were sexually maladapted to begin with [...]

Screw you for that ignorant comment.

107 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 10:34:38am

re: #105 Sacred Plants

Geographically this is more like Mt 4 than Mt 17.

How about Olympus Mons? We could put them there.

108 Olsonist  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 11:40:35am

Cato, I just re-read all of your comments on this thread about the Hitchens article, The Great Catholic Coverup. You are actively deflecting criticisms of the Church with the exception of your ass covering #47.

109 peterb  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 12:18:14pm

re: #106 Cato the Elder

Screw you for that ignorant comment.

No. It isn't ignorant. Rude, perhaps. Blunt, yes. But the fact of the matter is, responsible parents don't leave their children alone with Catholic priests - at least in those cultures (America, Italy, and I gather now Germany) where awareness of the problem is widespread.

"Ignorant" is trying to pretend that the problem doesn't exist, or that individual cases of crime are somehow equivalent to widespread institutional abuse and cover-up.

110 peterb  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 12:21:20pm

You know, I just realized that this topic gets deep into people's emotional defensive zones - so consider the matter dropped, at least from my side.

111 Tigger2005  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 1:36:36pm

re: #92 iceweasel

No. Paedophiles will often choose professions that put them in contact with children or give them access to children. Not all priests are paedophiles any more than all teachers are.

I never said all priests are pedophiles. I said many pedophiles choose to become priests, for the same reason some pedophiles choose other professions that will put them in contact with children. My point is that priestly celibacy is not the "root cause" of the problem. Many pedophiles are married.

If you ask me, though, word has probably gotten around in pedophile circles that the priesthood is a great gig. You get caught and your employer protects you and covers up your crimes.

112 Flame Fin Tomini Tang  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 2:26:04pm

We start in the USA, then move to Ireland, then to Germany. Anybody taking bets on the next countries?

113 Mich-again  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 2:39:25pm

My take.. If the allegations are true then the Pope should step down. All that knowledge apparently doesn't make him very wise and what was described is unredeemable in my eyes.

114 Cato the Elder  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 4:18:54pm

re: #108 Olsonist

Cato, I just re-read all of your comments on this thread about the Hitchens article, The Great Catholic Coverup. You are actively deflecting criticisms of the Church with the exception of your ass covering #47.

Go get with child a mandrake root, you pinheaded gobshite.

And welcome to my scrollover list.

115 PAUL_MACDONALD  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 6:02:19pm

re: #112 Naso Tang

We start in the USA, then move to Ireland, then to Germany. Anybody taking bets on the next countries?

African country, probably. There's a pathology with churches in general and underdeveloped regions.

116 Jolo5309  Wed, Mar 17, 2010 7:38:41pm

re: #92 iceweasel

No. Paedophiles will often choose professions that put them in contact with children or give them access to children. Not all priests are paedophiles any more than all teachers are.

But when a teacher is caught fucking little children, the principal will get him arrested and fired. Cardinal Law (as an example), moved them around so no one would know...

117 Sacred Plants  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 5:21:15am

re: #107 EmmmieG

How about Olympus Mons? We could put them there.

In terms of science fiction, each one could have their own asteroid.


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 Frank says:

If there's ever an obscene noise to be made on an instrument, it's gonna come out of a guitar! On a sax you can play sleaze, on a bass you can play balls. But on a guitar you can be truly obscene! Lets be realistic about this, the guitar can be the single most blasphemous device on earth! The guitar makes a stink noise. That's why I like it!!