Pope Benedict’s German Diocese Ignored Abuse Warnings

Religion • Views: 3,545

Every day seems to bring ever more horrifying new revelations about the German Catholic school child abuse scandal. Today we learned that the German archdiocese headed by Josef Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) ignored a psychiatrist’s repeated warnings about a priest accused of molesting children, and simply let the priest continue preying on young boys for many years: German Diocese Ignored Abuse Warnings, Doctor Says.

I said, ‘For God’s sake, he desperately has to be kept away from working with children,’�” the psychiatrist, Dr. Werner Huth, said in a telephone interview from Munich. “I was very unhappy about the entire story.”

Dr. Huth said he was concerned enough that he set three conditions for treating the priest, the Rev. Peter Hullermann: that he stay away from young people and alcohol and be supervised by another priest at all times.

Dr. Huth said he issued the explicit warnings — both written and oral — before the future pope, then Joseph Ratzinger, archbishop of Munich and Freising, left Germany for a position in the Vatican in 1982.

In 1980, after abuse complaints from parents in Essen that the priest did not deny, Archbishop Ratzinger approved a decision to move the priest to Munich for therapy.

Despite the psychiatrist’s warnings, Father Hullermann was allowed to return to parish work almost immediately after his therapy began, interacting with children as well as adults. Less than five years later, he was accused of molesting other boys, and in 1986 he was convicted of sexual abuse in Bavaria.

Benedict’s deputy at the time, Vicar General Gerhard Gruber, said he was to blame for that personnel decision, referring to what he called “serious mistakes.”

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301 comments
1 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 8:54:05pm

from last thread, but in honor of the current pope......


*ze cooler, 8 veeks*

2 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 8:56:47pm

Sadly, that seems to be way Pope Benedict thinks: Keep a lid on things and maintain control. Minimize disclosures. The exact opposite of what the Catholic Church actually needs on this scandal.

3 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 8:57:22pm

re: #1 wozzablog

from last thread, but in honor of the current pope...

*ze cooler, 8 veeks*

You know nothing!

/ ;)

4 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 8:58:19pm

re: #3 Dark_Falcon

I KNOW NOTHING!!!!

5 jaunte  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 8:59:03pm

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

6 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 8:59:14pm

re: #4 wozzablog

and with thatwide open goal.........

i bid you all good night.

7 austin_blue  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:01:02pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

Sadly, that seems to be way Pope Benedict thinks: Keep a lid on things and maintain control. Minimize disclosures. The exact opposite of what the Catholic Church actually needs on this scandal.

It has been the Church's position for over a decade. First it's an American Church problem. Then it shows up in Ireland, then Germany, etc.

Why do pedophiles work as Scoutmasters, Little League coaches and religious youth teachers?

That's where the kids are. Duh.

8 freetoken  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:01:27pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

It sadly seems in keeping with Ratzinger's former position as head of the Inquisition.

9 austin_blue  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:02:51pm

re: #8 freetoken

It sadly seems in keeping with Ratzinger's former position as head of the Inquisition.

Joey the Rat. As a retired Mackerel Snapper, I feel entitled.

10 Ojoe  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:03:43pm

"Serious mistakes."

This has to totally stop.

11 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:03:53pm

This sucks.

12 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:04:13pm

Pie Jesu Domine dona eis requiem

13 Soap_Man  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:04:59pm

re: #10 Ojoe

"Serious mistakes."

This has to totally stop.

"Serious mistakes"

Understatement of the year.

Goodnight all.

14 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:06:03pm

re: #11 cliffster

This sucks.

It does. Most of this is old news too, not sure why it's coming out now. Ratzinger's involvement in these scandals has been known since before his Popehood.

15 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:06:11pm

It would be nice if I could say "these things never happen in yeshivas" but of course they do and must be dealt with.

16 WindHorse  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:06:53pm

organized religion = fail.

17 jaunte  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:07:11pm

Sounds like it was not really a mistake, but deliberate avoidance.

Spared prosecution after his transgressions in Essen, which according to the statement released by the diocese he “did not dispute,” Father Hullermann instead was ordered to undergo therapy with Dr. Huth. The archdiocese said that order was personally approved by Archbishop Ratzinger.

Dr. Huth said he had recommended one-on-one sessions, which Father Hullermann refused. Instead the priest took part in group sessions, usually seated in a circle with eight other patients, who had a mix of disorders, including pedophilia. Dr. Huth, 80, said that Father Hullermann had problems with alcohol, for which he prescribed medication, but that he was “neither invested nor motivated” in his therapy.

“He did the therapy out of fear that he would lose his post” and a “fear of punishment,” Dr. Huth said.

The psychiatrist, whom Father Hullermann had authorized to report to church officials about his treatment on request, said he shared his concerns with them frequently. He said the constraints he put on the priest — that he stay away from children, not drink alcohol, and be accompanied and supervised at all times by another priest — were enforced only intermittently.

18 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:07:16pm

re: #7 austin_blue

It has been the Church's position for over a decade. First it's an American Church problem. Then it shows up in Ireland, then Germany, etc.

Why do pedophiles work as Scoutmasters, Little League coaches and religious youth teachers?

That's where the kids are. Duh.

And people are dead because of this, too. I remember reading about one young American man who killed himself, because the memory of his childhood abuse was too much for him.

19 Ojoe  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:07:31pm

O for another John XXIII

20 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:07:50pm

re: #16 WindHorse

The Dali Lama touched mah goodies!

21 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:09:38pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

Sadly, that seems to be way Pope Benedict thinks: Keep a lid on things and maintain control. Minimize disclosures. The exact opposite of what the Catholic Church actually needs on this scandal.

The Church leadership is hunkering down before the perceived assault of the modern world.

It's a bad mentality. They see themselves as victims, rather than very powerful leaders.

22 WindHorse  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:09:38pm

down ding away.... I believe that organized religion is the source of a lot of bad chit in the world....

23 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:09:46pm

I'm not commenting further on this post because last time a certain "Olsonist" waited until the thread was dead and then opined that my take on abuse in general was ass-covering for the Vatican and that my own disclaimer to the contrary was ass-cover for my ass-covering.

For the record, I have not, will not, do not, and never shall condone or excuse abuse. Not if it's "my" Church and not if it's my best friend.

That is all.

24 Ojoe  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:10:27pm

Thanks for keeping this topic on your blog, Charles.

Good night all.

25 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:10:30pm

re: #14 Killgore Trout

It does. Most of this is old news too, not sure why it's coming out now. Ratzinger's involvement in these scandals has been known since before his Popehood.

It's coming out because they can't keep it in.

26 Bagua  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:10:31pm

re: #10 Ojoe

"Serious mistakes."

This has to totally stop.

Absolutely! But how?

27 Ojoe  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:11:27pm

re: #21 SanFranciscoZionist

They won't be able to lead until they cure themselves of this.

Good night again.

28 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:11:29pm

re: #20 Killgore Trout

The Dali Lama touched mah goodies!

You willing to bet there is no sexual abuse going on in Buddhist monasteries? I ain't putting my money on it.

29 Bagua  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:11:31pm

re: #23 Cato the Elder

I'm not commenting further on this post because last time a certain "Olsonist" waited until the thread was dead and then opined that my take on abuse in general was ass-covering for the Vatican and that my own disclaimer to the contrary was ass-cover for my ass-covering.

For the record, I have not, will not, do not, and never shall condone or excuse abuse. Not if it's "my" Church and not if it's my best friend.

That is all.

Agreed.

30 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:11:55pm

re: #12 Killgore Trout

Pie Jesu Domine dona eis requiem

[Video]

31 jaunte  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:12:12pm

re: #22 WindHorse

down ding away... I believe that organized religion is the source of a lot of bad chit in the world...

It's tempting to blame an institution, but the impulse to abuse the powerless is widespread in humans, religious or not.

32 WindHorse  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:13:09pm

anytime there is a hierarchy.... there is power. Anytime there is power, there is abuse of power.

33 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:13:14pm

re: #28 SanFranciscoZionist

You willing to bet there is no sexual abuse going on in Buddhist monasteries? I ain't putting my money on it.

I'm sure there is.

34 Ojoe  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:13:19pm

re: #26 Bagua

Some of the policies adopted by the BSA might help including ALWAYS having at least 2 adults there when kids are involved.

(ZZZzzzz now)

35 Varek Raith  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:14:07pm

re: #22 WindHorse

down ding away... I believe that organized religion is the source of a lot of bad chit in the world...

I agree.

With that said, Supreme Imperator Raith has other battles to attend.
Night!
:)

36 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:14:22pm

re: #26 Bagua

Absolutely! But how?

Shut the fucking parishes down. You find a parish with this shit going on, and you prove it, shut it down. The same way you would shut down a day care center or other business that you find this kind of abuse going on. Religious organizations are not immune from the laws of the land.

37 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:14:25pm

re: #22 WindHorse

down ding away... I believe that organized religion is the source of a lot of bad chit in the world...

It has nothing to do with organized religion in general, but your comment had everything to do with taking a situation where children are being hurt and opportunistically using it to push your own opinion on things. That's pretty pathetic.

38 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:14:33pm

re: #34 Ojoe

Some of the policies adopted by the BSA might help including ALWAYS having at least 2 adults there when kids are involved.

(ZZZzzz now)

Many American parishes already have such a policy for everything but the confessional. (And there are screens in those.)

BTW, does anyone else here watch Ballykissangel? And do you remember the electronic confessional from Italy?

39 Bagua  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:15:01pm

re: #31 jaunte

It's tempting to blame an institution, but the impulse to abuse the powerless is widespread in humans, religious or not.

It is, and this is a widespread phenomenon. What is troubling is the extent to which there has been a culture of abuse and cover-up at so many Catholic institutions. These are not isolated instances.

40 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:15:13pm

re: #30 The Sanity Inspector

Ha!, still holds up.

41 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:15:29pm

re: #36 Walter L. Newton

Shut the fucking parishes down. You find a parish with this shit going on, and you prove it, shut it down. The same way you would shut down a day care center or other business that you find this kind of abuse going on. Religious organizations are not immune from the laws of the land.

So people find out that their pastor is molesting their children, and then their parish is taken away? That's only going to provide another reason for people to cover this crap up.

42 Killgore Trout  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:16:12pm

re: #30 The Sanity Inspector

I'm also struck by the fact that there's no way somebody could get away with that today.

43 jaunte  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:16:33pm

re: #39 Bagua

Institutional self-protection creates a continued injustice.

44 Silvergirl  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:16:46pm

re: #16 WindHorse

organized religion = fail.

Organized religion does much good in the world. Does not always equal FAIL.

45 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:17:13pm

re: #41 SanFranciscoZionist

So people find out that their pastor is molesting their children, and then their parish is taken away? That's only going to provide another reason for people to cover this crap up.

Quite Concur. Remove the priest in question and assign a new one.

46 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:17:39pm

re: #45 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur. Remove the priest in question and assign a new one.

Why not just turn him over to the law? Jail is removing the priest in question.

47 Bagua  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:17:40pm

re: #34 Ojoe

Some of the policies adopted by the BSA might help including ALWAYS having at least 2 adults there when kids are involved.

(ZZZzzz now)

Sadly, there are several cases in which both adults would be the abusers, such as St. Vincent orphanage, and even the supervisors are either abusers themselves or enablers.

48 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:18:29pm

I wonder what the Mullahs are thinking.

49 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:19:24pm

re: #26 Bagua

Absolutely! But how?

Get rid of the abusers, and then screen out potential abusers in the future.

50 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:19:31pm

re: #48 Spare O'Lake

I wonder what the Mullahs are thinking.

Which ones? There are probably a great many who don't read international newspapers.

I'm not getting snarky, just realistic.

51 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:19:44pm

re: #46 EmmmieG

Why not just turn him over to the law? Jail is removing the priest in question.

Yeah. These guys need to be turned over to the law, prosecuted, and jailed.

52 Lidane  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:20:10pm

re: #14 Killgore Trout

Ratzinger's involvement in these scandals has been known since before his Popehood.

It was known for decades before he became Pope, at least if Catholic theologian Hans Küng is to be believed:

Is it not time for Pope Benedict XVI himself to acknowledge his share of responsibility, instead of whining about a campaign against his person? No other person in the Church has had to deal with so many cases of abuse crossing his desk. Here some reminders:

* In his eight years as a professor of theology in Regensburg, in close contact with his brother Georg, the capellmeister of the Regensburger Domspatzen, Ratzinger can hardly have been ignorant about what went on in the choir and its boarding--school. This was much more than an occasional slap in the face, there are charges of serious physical violence and even sexual abuse.

* In his five years as Archbishop of Munich, repeated cases of sexual abuse at least by one priest transferred to his Archdiocese have come to light. His loyal Vicar General, my classmate Gerhard Gruber, has taken full responsibility for the handling of this case, but that is hardly an excuse for the Archbishop, who is ultimately responsible for the administration of his diocese.

* In his 24 years as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, from around the world, all cases of grave sexual offences by clerics had to be reported, under strictest secrecy ("secretum pontificum"), to his curial office, which was exclusively responsible for dealing with them. Ratzinger himself, in a letter on "grave sexual crimes" addressed to all the bishops under the date of 18 May, 2001, warned the bishops, under threat of ecclesiastical punishment, to observe "papal secrecy" in such cases.

* In his five years as Pope, Benedict XVI has done nothing to change this practice with all its fateful consequences.

Honesty demands that Joseph Ratzinger himself, the man who for decades has been principally responsible for the worldwide cover-up, at last pronounce his own "mea culpa". As Bishop Tebartz van Elst of Limburg, in a radio address on March 14, put it: "Scandalous wrongs cannot be glossed over or tolerated, we need a change of attitude that makes room for the truth. Conversion and repentance begin when guilt is openly admitted, when contrition1 is expressed in deeds and manifested as such, when responsibility is taken, and the chance for a new beginning is seized upon."

[Link: ncronline.org...]

53 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:20:20pm

re: #48 Spare O'Lake

I wonder what the Mullahs are thinking.

About sexual abuse in the Catholic Church? Probably not very much.

54 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:20:38pm

re: #41 SanFranciscoZionist

So people find out that their pastor is molesting their children, and then their parish is taken away? That's only going to provide another reason for people to cover this crap up.

Honestly, I understand the desire to cover it up. You can, in good faith, make a case for saying that it's better if people don't find out about this or that. But it just doesn't work. It doesn't scale, and it's dishonest to begin with. They gotta resist the myopic temptations.

55 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:20:40pm

re: #45 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur. Remove the priest in question and assign a new one.

Shut the parish down.

56 Jaerik  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:20:48pm

re: #7 austin_blue

It has been the Church's position for over a decade. First it's an American Church problem. Then it shows up in Ireland, then Germany, etc.

Why do pedophiles work as Scoutmasters, Little League coaches and religious youth teachers?

That's where the kids are. Duh.

I wonder how much of it is escapism.

If you're a person with sexual preferences that you wish to suppress in yourself -- whatever those might be -- I would imagine the existence of an institution that has celibacy as a requirement may seem like a handy escape hatch to avoid the issue altogether.

57 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:21:10pm

re: #50 EmmmieG

Which ones? There are probably a great many who don't read international newspapers.

I'm not getting snarky, just realistic.

MULLAHS WITH BLACKBERRIES!

58 Bagua  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:21:12pm

re: #36 Walter L. Newton

Shut the fucking parishes down. You find a parish with this shit going on, and you prove it, shut it down. The same way you would shut down a day care center or other business that you find this kind of abuse going on. Religious organizations are not immune from the laws of the land.

I agree. This is far too prevalent of a problem to continue to treat the Church as other than a criminal enterprise. The consequences have to be made serious enough for the Church to come clean.

As I said on a prior thread, I'd like to see a Hague Tribunal convened.

59 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:21:51pm

re: #46 EmmmieG

Why not just turn him over to the law? Jail is removing the priest in question.

Agreed. Excuse my lack of clarity.

60 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:22:27pm

re: #48 Spare O'Lake

I wonder what the Mullahs are thinking.

Depends. A lot of them are thinking, I'm hungry, and everyone else is too. How are we going to get food to eat?

61 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:22:56pm

re: #58 Bagua

I agree. This is far too prevalent of a problem to continue to treat the Church as other than a criminal enterprise. The consequences have to be made serious enough for the Church to come clean.

As I said on a prior thread, I'd like to see a Hague Tribunal convened.

No kidding. Scientology has been on the ropes for abusing and killing or causing the deaths of members, and abusing many of it's members mentally, they have even been banned in Germany.

What makes the Catholic Church immune?

62 jaunte  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:23:39pm
63 The Shadow Do  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:23:54pm

This Pope needs to go away. The alternative is to stink up the religion even more. He seems like a very smart man. Also stubborn. So I don't know.

Likely this will be a big kick where it hurts for Catholics for a very long time to come. And that is a damn shame. So much good lost to so much bad.

64 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:25:03pm

re: #53 SanFranciscoZionist

About sexual abuse in the Catholic Church? Probably not very much.

In general? The usual:

1. Ask Farideh when teacher conference is. Make excuse if it's poker night.
2. Make notes for Friday sermon.
3. Destroy Israel
4. Put out water and dry kibble for Achmedinejad.

65 Bagua  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:25:17pm

re: #49 The Sanity Inspector

Get rid of the abusers, and then screen out potential abusers in the future.

Yes, that is the sane thing to do, as responsible organisations such as the BSA and most schools do. The problem with the Church is that they did the opposite, they sheltered and concealed the abusers, returning them again and again to abuse minors.

They essentially conspired to turn some parishes, orphanages and schools under their jurisdiction into brothels for the pedophiles. With the full protection of the Church. The scope and duration of some of the horrors are beyond excuse.

66 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:25:19pm

re: #53 SanFranciscoZionist

About sexual abuse in the Catholic Church? Probably not very much.

Are you kidding? We are talking about the Pope here. This will probably be the subject matter of thousands of Islamist pronouncements concerning the moral bankruptcy of the West and the superiority of Islam.

67 SteveC  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:26:14pm

re: #57 Spare O'Lake

MULLAHS WITH BLACKBERRIES!

American with an iPhone! Deal with it, Mothafucka! :)

///

68 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:26:51pm

re: #55 Walter L. Newton

Shut the parish down.

I disagree with you.

To tell a story, in my youth there was a young woman who was being abused by her father. She made her cry for help (acting distressed, sending letters threatening self-harm) to her youth and adult leaders. (There were youth who were asked to serve in leadership positions to the other youth.)

I know this much of the story, but the adults were discreet and didn't talk, so I can't tell you more. I can tell you this, though:

"Daddy" was escorted out of the house by the police and didn't return. The last time I saw her she was happy and well-adjusted, meeting the usual young adult goals for herself. I don't know how much the church might have done for her in terms of counseling, and even making the calls to the police. It would have been against church policy to do nothing or keep it private.

If she hadn't had her church to turn to when she needed help, then where?

69 Jaerik  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:27:01pm

re: #61 Walter L. Newton

No kidding. Scientology has been on the ropes for abusing and killing or causing the deaths of members, and abusing many of it's members mentally, they have even been banned in Germany.

What makes the Catholic Church immune?

Simple answer: the lawmakers passing the laws against Scientology were not themselves Scientologists.

In the case of Catholicism, you would be asking them to oppose, at least in principle, the supreme authority of the church. As Catholicism sees the church as the embodiment of divine authority via Matthew 16:18, you would basically be asking them to pass a law against their own God himself.

70 Bagua  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:27:17pm

re: #61 Walter L. Newton

No kidding. Scientology has been on the ropes for abusing and killing or causing the deaths of members, and abusing many of it's members mentally, they have even been banned in Germany.

What makes the Catholic Church immune?

I agree completely.

71 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:27:22pm

re: #42 Killgore Trout

I'm also struck by the fact that there's no way somebody could get away with that today.

Yes, we are a pretty hyper-sensitive nation, nowadays.

72 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:27:28pm

It needs to be noted that this kind of thing happens in other churches too. It just doesn't get reported as much because it doesn't fit the media narrative.

I'm not Catholic and don't have much right to complain but I really dislike Benedict and would not be at all unhappy to see him unseated over this.

73 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:28:30pm

re: #66 Spare O'Lake

Are you kidding? We are talking about the Pope here. This will probably be the subject matter of thousands of Islamist pronouncements concerning the moral bankruptcy of the West and the superiority of Islam.

True, but if those sermons didn't use him as their focal point they'd just use something else. This scandal doesn't really affect us vis-a-vis the Islamists.

74 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:28:31pm

re: #66 Spare O'Lake

Are you kidding? We are talking about the Pope here. This will probably be the subject matter of thousands of Islamist pronouncements concerning the moral bankruptcy of the West and the superiority of Islam.

OK. Let them rant, then.

75 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:29:21pm

re: #72 Conservative Moonbat

Unfortunately, you have a lot of people drooling over the opportunity to bash Christianity, or religion, or Catholics. Forget the fact that children are being damaged for life. They are ecstatic at the opportunity to bash the church. Very sad.

76 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:29:47pm

re: #48 Spare O'Lake

I wonder what the Mullahs are thinking.

They're thinking, "stupid infidels...just make a rule!"

77 jaunte  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:30:10pm

re: #66 Spare O'Lake

his will probably be the subject matter of thousands of Islamist pronouncements concerning the moral bankruptcy of the West and the superiority of Islam.


I don't think they could stand much scrutiny.

78 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:31:05pm

re: #75 cliffster

Unfortunately, you have a lot of people drooling over the opportunity to bash Christianity, or religion, or Catholics. Forget the fact that children are being damaged for life. They are ecstatic at the opportunity to bash the church. Very sad.

I'd rather not go there. The 'they hate us because we're Catholics/religious/Christians' thing has gone a long way for some people to downplay the whole situation.

79 SteveC  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:31:45pm

re: #72 Conservative Moonbat

It needs to be noted that this kind of thing happens in other churches too. It just doesn't get reported as much because it doesn't fit the media narrative.

Councilor at a Freewill Baptist Children's Home was goosestepped a couple of weeks ago for attempting to molest the children. That guy was in my church over the Christmas Holidays. (Church had invited the Children's Home kids for a Christmas party.)

*shudder*

80 Bagua  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:32:24pm

re: #47 Bagua

Sadly, there are several cases in which both adults would be the abusers, such as St. Vincent orphanage, and even the supervisors are either abusers themselves or enablers.

I am referring here to the film made based upon events that actually happened at the Mount Cashel Orphanage operated by the Congregation of Christian Brothers, a community within the Catholic Church. In Ireland sexual abuse of boys in places run by them was chronic.

81 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:33:00pm

re: #66 Spare O'Lake

Are you kidding? We are talking about the Pope here. This will probably be the subject matter of thousands of Islamist pronouncements concerning the moral bankruptcy of the West and the superiority of Islam.


Highlights a big difference in cultures. How much you want to bet same thing goes on at the religious schools? But you just will not hear about it. Because it would be the kids thrown out or even killed to eliminate the shame. Maybe not so different now that I think about it. Just a matter of degree.

82 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:33:00pm

re: #78 SanFranciscoZionist

I'd rather not go there. The 'they hate us because we're Catholics/religious/Christians' thing has gone a long way for some people to downplay the whole situation.

That is true. It's also very obvious that people are literally drooling at this. Being so happy about kids being hurt is disgusting.

83 austin_blue  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:33:25pm

re: #45 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur. Remove the priest in question and assign a new one.

Prosecute the Priest in question and assign a new one.

Look, it's simple. There are gays, and some are pedophiles attracted to little boys. The vast majority are not, anymore than straights are attracted to little girls. The majority of pedophiles are straight males who abuse little girls. Both groups have no place in society. They predate on children. They really can't help themselves. That is their sexual orientation. It's toxic.

There's a former Air Force base southwest of Hawaii, called Johnston Atoll. This is where pedophiles should be sent (along with, in my opinion, congenital criminals of all sorts). Think of it as Coventry for the incorrigible.

84 Jaerik  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:33:29pm

re: #72 Conservative Moonbat

I'm not Catholic and don't have much right to complain but I really dislike Benedict and would not be at all unhappy to see him unseated over this.

Unfortunately, there is no way to unseat a Pope. It has never been done, because even having a mechanism to do so would imply the Pope does not always have supreme authority, which is itself against Catholic teachings.

Popes also don't resign, because to do so would be to admit imperfection. Which again by Catholic teachings, would be a paradox because the Pope is incapable of imperfection.

The last time a Pope resigned was 600 years ago, and that was seen as only a structural move to stop a schism, thus ducking the perfection issue.

85 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:33:44pm

re: #74 SanFranciscoZionist

OK. Let them rant, then.

Nothing we can do about it.
It's a setback in the war against radical Islam when leaders of our mainstream religious institutions are disgraced. Probably will make it easier for the bastards to get more converts, too.

86 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:33:57pm

re: #79 SteveC

Councilor at a Freewill Baptist Children's Home was goosestepped a couple of weeks ago for attempting to molest the children. That guy was in my church over the Christmas Holidays. (Church had invited the Children's Home kids for a Christmas party.)

*shudder*

Crap, I am sorry.

I think I've told this here, but one of my dad's good friends from church was at Mass the day Father explained that there was A Situation, and that the parish was cooperating fully with SFPD. She nearly had a heart attack right there in the pew. She said she just sat there in shock thinking "Not one of our priests, please God..."

She almost wept with relief when it turned out the Situation was embezzling. (She's an accountant, BTW.)

The stress this places on a community is horrible.

87 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:34:46pm

re: #83 austin_blue

Prosecute the Priest in question and assign a new one.

Look, it's simple. There are gays, and some are pedophiles attracted to little boys. The vast majority are not, anymore than straights are attracted to little girls. The majority of pedophiles are straight males who abuse little girls. Both groups have no place in society. They predate on children. They really can't help themselves. That is their sexual orientation. It's toxic.

There's a former Air Force base southwest of Hawaii, called Johnston Atoll. This is where pedophiles should be sent (along with, in my opinion, congenital criminals of all sorts). Think of it as Coventry for the incorrigible.

Your proposal meets with my approval.

88 The Shadow Do  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:35:31pm

re: #68 EmmmieG

I disagree with you.

To tell a story, in my youth there was a young woman who was being abused by her father. She made her cry for help (acting distressed, sending letters threatening self-harm) to her youth and adult leaders. (There were youth who were asked to serve in leadership positions to the other youth.)

I know this much of the story, but the adults were discreet and didn't talk, so I can't tell you more. I can tell you this, though:

"Daddy" was escorted out of the house by the police and didn't return. The last time I saw her she was happy and well-adjusted, meeting the usual young adult goals for herself. I don't know how much the church might have done for her in terms of counseling, and even making the calls to the police. It would have been against church policy to do nothing or keep it private.

If she hadn't had her church to turn to when she needed help, then where?

Yes, there is a valid counterpoint. My older sister's fiance raped me as a young boy. No one ever knew. She would have married him except that the church we belonged to looked into his background.

He had been arrested for public sex with a young boy in another state.

So yes, there is more than the simple dismissal of religion and its place societally.

Life is a sort of panorama unless you are myopic of course.

89 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:36:06pm

re: #81 Escaped Hillbilly

Highlights a big difference in cultures. How much you want to bet same thing goes on at the religious schools? But you just will not hear about it. Because it would be the kids thrown out or even killed to eliminate the shame. Maybe not so different now that I think about it. Just a matter of degree.

Girls pregnant from being molested by clergy and family members in Ireland back in the last century ended up at the 'Magdalen Homes'. The abuse, and the shaming, was brutal.

We're getting better. Slowly.

God willing, the Muslim world will come too, someday.

90 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:36:43pm

re: #88 The Shadow Do

Yes, there is a valid counterpoint. My older sister's fiance raped me as a young boy. No one ever knew. She would have married him except that the church we belonged to looked into his background.

He had been arrested for public sex with a young boy in another state.

So yes, there is more than the simple dismissal of religion and its place societally.

Life is a sort of panorama unless you are myopic of course.

I am so very sorry to hear this. I hope you have found healing.

91 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:36:56pm

re: #82 cliffster

That is true. It's also very obvious that people are literally drooling at this. Being so happy about kids being hurt is disgusting.

I've not seen that, but I'll assume there out there--since no matter what, there doesn't seem but to be some person who can be gleeful about it.

92 austin_blue  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:37:40pm

re: #89 SanFranciscoZionist

Girls pregnant from being molested by clergy and family members in Ireland back in the last century ended up at the 'Magdalen Homes'. The abuse, and the shaming, was brutal.

We're getting better. Slowly.

God willing, the Muslim world will come too, someday.

Not as long as women are treated as chattel.

93 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:38:32pm

re: #55 Walter L. Newton

Shut the parish down.

I'm an atheist but find that absurd. Why would they deprive an organized body of people the ability to worship freely because of the bad actions of one individual?

I've worked with many devout Catholics on various social justice related issues, mostly anti death penalty stuff and they are good people who don't deserve this kind of scandal happening around them.

94 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:38:36pm

re: #84 Jaerik


Popes also don't resign, because to do so would be to admit imperfection. Which again by Catholic teachings, would be a paradox because the Pope is incapable of imperfection.

Untrue. The Pope is only infalliable when speaking ex cathedra. And he doesn't do that often. Mary is the only human being to have achieved perfection in Catholic doctrine.

But I cannot imagine the Pope being removed from office over this.

I could be totally wrong.

95 Bagua  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:38:39pm

re: #83 austin_blue

Prosecute the Priest in question and assign a new one.

Look, it's simple. There are gays, and some are pedophiles attracted to little boys. The vast majority are not, anymore than straights are attracted to little girls. The majority of pedophiles are straight males who abuse little girls. Both groups have no place in society. They predate on children. They really can't help themselves. That is their sexual orientation. It's toxic.

There's a former Air Force base southwest of Hawaii, called Johnston Atoll. This is where pedophiles should be sent (along with, in my opinion, congenital criminals of all sorts). Think of it as Coventry for the incorrigible.

I believe there is some debate over that statement. Many of the pedophiles do not identify as gay, and many are quite horrified at that idea and have no attraction to adult males.

96 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:38:57pm

re: #85 Spare O'Lake

Nothing we can do about it.
It's a setback in the war against radical Islam when leaders of our mainstream religious institutions are disgraced. Probably will make it easier for the bastards to get more converts, too.

The fact that we are deploring and investigating counts in our favor, one would hope. That's the mark of a free people.

97 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:39:25pm

re: #75 cliffster

Unfortunately, you have a lot of people drooling over the opportunity to bash Christianity, or religion, or Catholics. Forget the fact that children are being damaged for life. They are ecstatic at the opportunity to bash the church. Very sad.

True. And what the droolers (like Hitchens) don't worry about is that tearing down mainstream Christianity is at least in the short term going to strengthen the Islamists and give them very powerful propoganda for recruitment and radicalization. On the other hand, this conduct cannot be ignored or swept under the rug.

98 austin_blue  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:39:39pm

re: #87 Dark_Falcon

Your proposal meets with my approval.

Well, thank you, DF, I appreciate that.

;-)

99 Stanghazi  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:39:50pm

re: #85 Spare O'Lake

In my opinion, you are combining two different things. This abuse of children in the Catholic church has absolutely nothing to do with Islam.

100 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:40:07pm

re: #88 The Shadow Do

Yes, there is a valid counterpoint. My older sister's fiance raped me as a young boy. No one ever knew. She would have married him except that the church we belonged to looked into his background.

He had been arrested for public sex with a young boy in another state.

So yes, there is more than the simple dismissal of religion and its place societally.

Life is a sort of panorama unless you are myopic of course.

Wow, that's heavy stuff wrapped up in an otherwise just-another-post. It seems you've found a way past all that and moved on. Sure hope so.

101 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:40:21pm

re: #92 austin_blue

Not as long as women are treated as chattel.

Contact with the modern world is just reinforcing their atavistic beliefs.

102 BaseballMom57  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:40:27pm

re: #88 The Shadow Do

That is horrible. I am sorry you have had to carry that with you all your life. I hope the pain has faded somewhat.

103 Jaerik  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:40:31pm

re: #82 cliffster

That is true. It's also very obvious that people are literally drooling at this. Being so happy about kids being hurt is disgusting.

I can't stand this tactic. We should be allowed to discuss the institutional and systemic problems that exacerbate crimes, and/or prevent them being divulged in the first place.

We can be heartbroken over the victims, and furiously demand justice for those responsible. But to imply that those emotions should solidify into a wall that stops all further debate on the issue is absurd.

And to then imply that such further discussion indicates happiness over the crime itself is pretty low.

104 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:40:36pm

re: #85 Spare O'Lake

Nothing we can do about it.
It's a setback in the war against radical Islam when leaders of our mainstream religious institutions are disgraced. Probably will make it easier for the bastards to get more converts, too.

This is a giant, bleeding wound in the side of the Church, and you're worried about radical Islam getting converts off it?

I really think this is much bigger than a PR problem.

105 Bagua  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:41:27pm

re: #93 Conservative Moonbat

I'm an atheist but find that absurd. Why would they deprive an organized body of people the ability to worship freely because of the bad actions of one individual?

I've worked with many devout Catholics on various social justice related issues, mostly anti death penalty stuff and they are good people who don't deserve this kind of scandal happening around them.

The problem isn't the actions of one individual, there appears to be an institutional culture that enabled and and provided cover for these offenders. If the Church had acted responsibly, it would be a different circumstance.

106 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:42:40pm

re: #95 Bagua

I believe there is some debate over that statement. Many of the pedophiles do not identify as gay, and many are quite horrified at that idea and have no attraction to adult males.

Andrew Sullivan and Rod Dreher fought it out over those points during the American church scandal in '02.

107 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:43:07pm

I'm signing off for the night. See you folks tomorrow.

108 Irenicum  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:43:20pm

This may sound odd coming from one of the "christian" posters here, but if endemic abuse is seen occurring in a parish, shut that parish down. And then demand evidence of remedial action on the part of the overseeing organization that necessary actions have been taken to make sure this won't happen again. This shit can't be defended in any way shape or form. And if any organization wants to maintain any sense of integrity, then it must admit to the reality of its own culpability. Until and unless this happens, any said organization doesn't deserve incorporation. There is a basic morality that exists. Abusing (sexually or otherwise) those unable to protect themselves is always wrong under every circumstance. Why does it amaze me that this is so hard to understand?

109 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:43:24pm

re: #89 SanFranciscoZionist
I recently read a book about one of the Magdalenes. Actually, I am not so sure we've come as far as we'd like to think. Those places were just plain bad, but they did at least provide medical care and tried to place the babies in decent homes. At least in the case of this young woman. She also related how one of the young girls had been raped by her father and the sisters showed her more compassion because of it. There are people today who would view unwed mothers in exactly the same light. Still, western religions for the most part no longer prescribe stoning the young woman to death.

110 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:43:48pm

re: #101 The Sanity Inspector

Contact with the modern world is just reinforcing their atavistic beliefs.

The same could be said for the Church leadership in this instance, sadly. And for some groups in the Jewish world as well.

Miserable situation.

111 windsagio  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:43:54pm

re: #99 Stanley Sea

>> Everything has to do with Islam.

112 Jaerik  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:44:49pm

re: #94 SanFranciscoZionist

Untrue. The Pope is only infalliable when speaking ex cathedra. And he doesn't do that often. Mary is the only human being to have achieved perfection in Catholic doctrine.

But I cannot imagine the Pope being removed from office over this.

I could be totally wrong.

Interesting, thank you for the correction. I'm not Catholic myself and only know what I've managed to research into the issue over the past few days.

What would happen if the Pope absolved himself of responsibility by simply proclaiming, ex cathedra, that he wasn't responsible?

113 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:44:49pm

re: #103 Jaerik

I can't stand this tactic. We should be allowed to discuss the institutional and systemic problems that exacerbate crimes, and/or prevent them being divulged in the first place.

We can be heartbroken over the victims, and furiously demand justice for those responsible. But to imply that those emotions should solidify into a wall that stops all further debate on the issue is absurd.

And to then imply that such further discussion indicates happiness over the crime itself is pretty low.

That doesn't have any resemblance to what I was saying. But get outraged about if it makes you feel better.. glad I could be a catalyst for your venting.

Either way, whether you like it or not, there are people who are gleeful at the opportunity to attack the church, or religion in general, without giving a second thought to the actual children who are actually hurt.

114 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:45:32pm

re: #108 Irenicum
Wait, shut them down and then demand evidence of action? That goes a bit far. If it is a problem of the whole parish, fine. But if it is one or two people in it, why not demand evidence of action first? Then if no action is taken it could be taken as evidence of complicity. Just my take.

115 The Shadow Do  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:46:49pm

re: #84 Jaerik

Unfortunately, there is no way to unseat a Pope. It has never been done, because even having a mechanism to do so would imply the Pope does not always have supreme authority, which is itself against Catholic teachings.

Popes also don't resign, because to do so would be to admit imperfection. Which again by Catholic teachings, would be a paradox because the Pope is incapable of imperfection.

The last time a Pope resigned was 600 years ago, and that was seen as only a structural move to stop a schism, thus ducking the perfection issue.

What is the outcome when the Pope, lacking imperfection, is clearly revealed to be imperfect. There is nothing but suffering in any attempt to answer that one.

116 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:47:05pm

re: #108 Irenicum

This may sound odd coming from one of the "christian" posters here, but if endemic abuse is seen occurring in a parish, shut that parish down. And then demand evidence of remedial action on the part of the overseeing organization that necessary actions have been taken to make sure this won't happen again. This shit can't be defended in any way shape or form. And if any organization wants to maintain any sense of integrity, then it must admit to the reality of its own culpability. Until and unless this happens, any said organization doesn't deserve incorporation. There is a basic morality that exists. Abusing (sexually or otherwise) those unable to protect themselves is always wrong under every circumstance. Why does it amaze me that this is so hard to understand?

Please understand (you may, I'm just clarifying) that a Catholic parish is not like a Protestant church. The people of the parish did not choose their priest, they were assigned him, and if their church is shut down, they may not incorporate another one without the permission of their diocese. Closing a parish will create a terrible situation for many Catholic communities. I'd rather see a response that places the burden on the diocesan leadership, rather than the lay Catholics.

117 austin_blue  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:47:17pm

re: #95 Bagua

I believe there is some debate over that statement. Many of the pedophiles do not identify as gay, and many are quite horrified at that idea and have no attraction to adult males.

Did you read my post? You make my point. Sexual orientation is genetic. Period. Full stop.

The pitiful bit is when people try to live a sexual reality totally at odds with their genetics.

See the Senator with the Wide Stance. He's not gay! Why are all these homosexuals sucking my dick?!?!?!

I draw the line at relationships between consenting adults. That's cool.

Children? Send the pedophiles to Coventry. They will never change. That is their "normal".

118 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:49:11pm

re: #99 Stanley Sea

In my opinion, you are combining two different things. This abuse of children in the Catholic church has absolutely nothing to do with Islam.

I'm always looking at how things in the West may affect the war against radical Islamist terror and jihad. That's where I'm coming from.

119 Irenicum  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:49:26pm

re: #114 Escaped Hillbilly

Thanks for the feedback. I'm presuming a criminal adjudication that proves something regarding the higher ups. We've seen these kinds of cases before. And in those cases it's appropriate to ask that some amends have been made. before granting privileges once again.

120 Jaerik  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:50:39pm

re: #113 cliffster

Either way, whether you like it or not, there are people who are gleeful at the opportunity to attack the church, or religion in general, without giving a second thought to the actual children who are actually hurt.

Definitely, and I apologize if you weren't directing the statement at me. It's just something that I find aimed at me a lot, especially in the past few threads on this issue.

The moment I try to even hint there's potentially a constructive discussion to be had about how to fix institutional problems that may either exacerbate these crimes, or help cover them up, a bunch of people throw the victims up as a rhetorical smokescreen and proclaim they should be the only topic of the thread. And any discussion that deviates to wider topics implies you don't care about the children, or are somehow an apologist for the perpetrators.

121 austin_blue  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:51:03pm

re: #118 Spare O'Lake

I'm always looking at how things in the West may affect the war against radical Islamist terror and jihad. That's where I'm coming from.

Then make a rational argument. That one sucked.

122 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:51:35pm

re: #112 Jaerik

Interesting, thank you for the correction. I'm not Catholic myself and only know what I've managed to research into the issue over the past few days.

What would happen if the Pope absolved himself of responsibility by simply proclaiming, ex cathedra, that he wasn't responsible?

I don't know if that is possible. It really is used very very rarely, the doctrine was set forth in the 1800s, and I do not believe it has been used more than once or twice since then. I believe it's only supposed to be applied to matters of doctrine, as well, and I don't think "The pope didn't do anything wrong" can be considered a matter of doctrine.

I don't like Ratzinger, but I don't think he's that screwed up, by a long shot.

123 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:51:39pm

re: #117 austin_blue

From my days in Mental Health: Pedophilia is not homosexuality and there is very little in the literature to suggest it is genetic as opposed to the great deal of research on the genetic predisposition to homosexuality. Pedophiles who are drawn to same sex victims are not necessarily homosexuals in the same vein as adult oriented homosexuals and often are drawn also to adults of opposite sex, opposite sex children, same sex adults, or any combination thereof. Please post any more recent research you are aware of as I have been away from the field for about 10 years.

124 windsagio  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:52:04pm

re: #117 austin_blue

That's a massive overimplification of the issue, on a multiple number of levels.

a) We don't know for sure whether sexual orientation is genetic or not, altho' there's a fair amount of evidence that everyone is to some degree bisexual as a default.

b) There are a number of issues and risk factors with sexual abuse that don't tie directly to the genetic theory, such as being a subject of abuse in the past. (And I have brought to mind the example of a former client we had to watch like a hawk, because he really, as far as we could tell, coudln't tell the difference between kids and adults, as far as propositioning them went.)

Like most things, the situation is substantially more complex than "ITS GENETIC!" vs "ITS CHOICE!", and even more so when you deal with the issues around child abuse.

125 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:52:27pm

re: #118 Spare O'Lake

I'm always looking at how things in the West may affect the war against radical Islamist terror and jihad. That's where I'm coming from.

In this case, I think it's better to just keep your eye on the ball. The crimes continue because of the coverups, and the coverups happen because the crimes were put into the context of the "good of the church". I think trying to put the crimes into the context of the "war against radical Islamist terror" would mean that we haven't learned an important lesson. That lesson being - keep your eye on the ball.

126 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:52:33pm

re: #119 Irenicum
Check and ok, we have some common ground then.

127 windsagio  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:52:33pm

re: #118 Spare O'Lake

And seriously, not everything relates to that 'war'.

128 Stanghazi  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:53:14pm

re: #118 Spare O'Lake

I'm always looking at how things in the West may affect the war against radical Islamist terror and jihad. That's where I'm coming from.

If you do that exclusively, you may miss something that is right in front of you, that has nothing to do with the wars or religions of the world.

129 The Shadow Do  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:53:18pm

re: #90 EmmmieG

I am so very sorry to hear this. I hope you have found healing.

Yes, though it took a very long time. There is a balance to be found is all I am trying to relate.

130 Bagua  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:54:21pm

re: #117 austin_blue

Did you read my post? You make my point. Sexual orientation is genetic. Period. Full stop.
[...]
.

I did read your post, the issue is much more complex than you are phrasing it. It is not accurate to term many pedophiles as "gay" because their victims are male, in many cases they have absolutely no attraction to adult males, strictly pre-pubescent children. (I believe that is actually not 'many' but 'most'). Many will also have adult relationships involving only females. It unfairly demonises gay people to make that allegation and is not supported by the literature I have read.

131 Olsonist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:54:28pm

re: #23 Cato the Elder

That isn't how I read your postings but perhaps that wasn't how you meant them.

For the record I think think the Catholic Church has been criminal in their employing, shuffling and hiding of sex offenders, in particular Cardinal Law. In particular, they could 'release' the victims from their vows of silence. They haven't.

132 Stanghazi  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:55:04pm

re: #116 SanFranciscoZionist

Please understand (you may, I'm just clarifying) that a Catholic parish is not like a Protestant church. The people of the parish did not choose their priest, they were assigned him, and if their church is shut down, they may not incorporate another one without the permission of their diocese. Closing a parish will create a terrible situation for many Catholic communities. I'd rather see a response that places the burden on the diocesan leadership, rather than the lay Catholics.

I so agree. And the threat of losing the parish, as you said before, allows the hiding of crimes to continue.

133 Irenicum  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:55:09pm

re: #116 SanFranciscoZionist

Thank you SFZ. You make a good point. I do however think that organizational responsibility needs to play into this. And yes, local congregants do suffer because of the decisions of their leaders. I'd like to say that every action is discrete and effects no one else, but we all know that isn't the case. The parish would indeed suffer, but it would be because of the decisions and actions of their leaders.

134 Charles Johnson  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:56:02pm

re: #85 Spare O'Lake

Nothing we can do about it.
It's a setback in the war against radical Islam when leaders of our mainstream religious institutions are disgraced. Probably will make it easier for the bastards to get more converts, too.

So where are you going with that? Are you trying to say it would be better to ignore or downplay this stuff?

Because it's exactly that kind of attitude that has let these priests get away with warping countless children's lives, for centuries.

You don't ignore this and you don't say it might encourage "the enemy." If you do, you don't have anything that's really worth defending against that enemy.

135 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:56:22pm

re: #120 Jaerik

Definitely, and I apologize if you weren't directing the statement at me. It's just something that I find aimed at me a lot, especially in the past few threads on this issue.

The moment I try to even hint there's potentially a constructive discussion to be had about how to fix institutional problems that may either exacerbate these crimes, or help cover them up, a bunch of people throw the victims up as a rhetorical smokescreen and proclaim they should be the only topic of the thread. And any discussion that deviates to wider topics implies you don't care about the children, or are somehow an apologist for the perpetrators.

In general, victims are exploited by people trying to use the crimes to their advantage - and as you said, they are used as a smokescreen for people wanting to ignore the crimes. The common theme is, victims keep getting victimized. By people that suck.

136 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:56:23pm

re: #104 SanFranciscoZionist

This is a giant, bleeding wound in the side of the Church, and you're worried about radical Islam getting converts off it?

I really think this is much bigger than a PR problem.

Look I'm not saying it isn't a terrible thing for the Church. I'm just pointing out one of the ways that this kind of thing can have effects far beyond the Church. There are plenty of other things a major crisis in the hugely influential Catholic Church will affect, too.

137 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:57:07pm

re: #131 Olsonist

That isn't how I read your postings but perhaps that wasn't how you meant them.

For the record I think think the Catholic Church has been criminal in their employing, shuffling and hiding of sex offenders, in particular Cardinal Law. In particular, they could 'release' the victims from their vows of silence. They haven't.

Go get with child a mandrake root, kleyner pisher.

138 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:57:14pm

re: #134 Charles
I didn't read it like that. Hope you didn't mean it that way. I read to mean, they (the clergy) have shamed us and played into the hands of our enemies.

139 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:58:02pm

Okay, I've gotta go. I've been waiting for an appropriate thread to drop this into, but I'm afraid that in this one it'll seem like deflection. So, I'll just assure you that it isn't intended that way.

This is the website of The Sister Hatune Foundation. A worker among the most desperately poor, as you can see. On YouTube, there's an interview with her from German TV, on her experiences trying to help Iraqi Christian women. They're being savagely raped and attacked all across the country, being forced to flee to other countries, where they are illegals and have no rights.

Interviewer: "Sister, you are now showing us images which we could never ever broadcast. We cannot even describe what they depict. These pictures could not even be in a horror movie. How do you manage to photograph these things?"

Sister Hatune: "As I told you, I have almost turned into a machine. I cried a lot in the beginning, but now I am just blocked. I feel numb. But I think I will need someone to care for my soul, too, if ever things calm down."

No link, as the other content on the posters channel would be objectionable to much of present company.

140 windsagio  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:58:14pm

re: #138 Escaped Hillbilly

I'm kinda thinking the monolithic focus on Islam gets in the way of dealing with problems like this. Religious war shouldn't be the foremost thought in our minds at all times.

141 austin_blue  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:58:40pm

re: #123 Escaped Hillbilly

From my days in Mental Health: Pedophilia is not homosexuality and there is very little in the literature to suggest it is genetic as opposed to the great deal of research on the genetic predisposition to homosexuality. Pedophiles who are drawn to same sex victims are not necessarily homosexuals in the same vein as adult oriented homosexuals and often are drawn also to adults of opposite sex, opposite sex children, same sex adults, or any combination thereof. Please post any more recent research you are aware of as I have been away from the field for about 10 years.

I was expressing an opinion. I could very well be wrong. But it seems to me that sexual predators of children are born, by and large, not grown. I really can't imagine myself having sexual fun with a man or a child of either sex. Not my idea of pleasure.

142 Bagua  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 9:59:41pm

re: #117 austin_blue


Using the fixated-regressed distinction, Groth and Birnbaum (1978) studied 175 adult males who were convicted in Massachusetts of sexual assault against a child. None of the men had an exclusively homosexual adult sexual orientation. 83 (47%) were classified as "fixated;" 70 others (40%) were classified as regressed adult heterosexuals; the remaining 22 (13%) were classified as regressed adult bisexuals. Of the last group, Groth and Birnbaum observed that "in their adult relationships they engaged in sex on occasion with men as well as with women. However, in no case did this attraction to men exceed their preference for women....There were no men who were primarily sexually attracted to other adult males..." (p.180).

Other researchers have taken different approaches, but have similarly failed to find a connection between homosexuality and child molestation. Dr. Carole Jenny and her colleagues reviewed 352 medical charts, representing all of the sexually abused children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children's hospital during a one-year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992). The molester was a gay or lesbian adult in fewer than 1% in which an adult molester could be identified – only 2 of the 269 cases (Jenny et al., 1994).

Link

143 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:00:13pm

re: #141 austin_blue

I was expressing an opinion. I could very well be wrong. But it seems to me that sexual predators of children are born, by and large, not grown. I really can't imagine myself having sexual fun with a man or a child of either sex. Not my idea of pleasure.

I was under the impression sexual predators are often learning patterns of behavior from their own abusers.

144 Stanghazi  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:01:25pm

re: #129 The Shadow Do

I don't do the huggy thing on the comment section, but Shadow, you get brackets from me.

145 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:02:13pm

re: #141 austin_blue

I was expressing an opinion. I could very well be wrong. But it seems to me that sexual predators of children are born, by and large, not grown. I really can't imagine myself having sexual fun with a man or a child of either sex. Not my idea of pleasure.

To me, more likely that it got jammed into the wiring when that same outrageous stuff happened to them when they were small and helpless. And I believe the numbers back that up.

146 Bagua  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:02:46pm

re: #143 WindUpBird

I was under the impression sexual predators are often learning patterns of behavior from their own abusers.

That has actually been proven to be a minority of the cases, though it was commonly believed in the past.

147 austin_blue  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:03:16pm

re: #124 windsagio

That's a massive overimplification of the issue, on a multiple number of levels.

a) We don't know for sure whether sexual orientation is genetic or not, altho' there's a fair amount of evidence that everyone is to some degree bisexual as a default.

b) There are a number of issues and risk factors with sexual abuse that don't tie directly to the genetic theory, such as being a subject of abuse in the past. (And I have brought to mind the example of a former client we had to watch like a hawk, because he really, as far as we could tell, coudln't tell the difference between kids and adults, as far as propositioning them went.)

Like most things, the situation is substantially more complex than "ITS GENETIC!" vs "ITS CHOICE!", and even more so when you deal with the issues around child abuse.

I mostly agree with what you posted. But at base level, I do believe that sexual orientation is based on genes. Does childhood sexual abuse factor in later behavior? I am sure it does. But there are hundreds of thousands of kids who find themselves gay and just happen to happen to have a gay aunt or uncle.

148 reine.de.tout  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:03:28pm

re: #118 Spare O'Lake

I'm always looking at how things in the West may affect the war against radical Islamist terror and jihad. That's where I'm coming from.

Catholics who convert will join the Episcopal Church, not become Muslims.
And many have, almost an entire parish in my hometown left the Catholic Church and joined an Episcopal Parish there, although in this particular case it was not for child abuse but simply because the priests were so very incapable of providing spiritual sustenance.

The point is - this has nothing to do with radical Islam.
It's a huge problem for the Church.

149 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:03:28pm

re: #143 WindUpBird

I remember some trainer we had (sorry, I got CRS) who suggested the problem may be that child abuse short circuits the part of learning about sexuality that allows you to turn off incorrect signals. In other words, they don't learn how to be pedophiles or abusers, they just don't learn how NOT to be.

150 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:03:50pm

re: #141 austin_blue

I was expressing an opinion. I could very well be wrong. But it seems to me that sexual predators of children are born, by and large, not grown. I really can't imagine myself having sexual fun with a man or a child of either sex. Not my idea of pleasure.

Right, but this also ties into Escaped Hillbilly's comment. Paedophilia is its own orientation-- they're attracted to children. Although they might have a preferred victim, boys or girls, the orientation is about hurting children. They'll switch victim type easily when they have to. It isn't proper to describe them imo as 'heterosexual' or 'homosexual', but as paedophiles.

Another relevant feature here: it's one reason why they'll switch gender orientation of victims so easily-- children are lacking secondary sex characteristics. That's one reason why neither heterosexuals nor homosexuals find children to be sexual objects. Only paedophiles do.

151 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:04:18pm

re: #144 Stanley Sea

I don't do the huggy thing on the comment section, but Shadow, you get brackets from me.

No hugs? Aw, get in touch with the feminine side of your keyboard!

152 The Shadow Do  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:04:23pm

re: #142 Bagua

Link

what exactly is the point of all those stats? Some pedophiles are gay, some are not. And?

153 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:04:59pm

re: #121 austin_blue

Then make a rational argument. That one sucked.

I thought it made sense. Do you not think that enemies of Christianity will have a field day with this kind of thing? If so then why would you think that Islamists would not use it to score propoganda points and recruit converts and radicals? One of their main arguments is always about the the decadence of the West...don't you think that this will provide a great talking point and even actual evidence of moral decadence for the Imams to use in the madrassas?

154 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:05:08pm

re: #146 Bagua

That has actually been proven to be a minority of the cases, though it was commonly believed in the past.

What makes you say that?

155 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:06:22pm

My point, and then I'm going to bed, is that all church, youth organizations, etc, need to understand that child molestation is One Strike, You're Out. Forever.

156 Bagua  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:06:38pm

re: #152 The Shadow Do

what exactly is the point of all those stats? Some pedophiles are gay, some are not. And?

It demonstrates that it is a myth that homosexual men are more likely to abuse children than heterosexual men.

157 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:07:51pm

re: #155 EmmmieG

My point, and then I'm going to bed, is that all church, youth organizations, etc, need to understand that child molestation is One Strike, You're Out. Forever.

You got that right. And good night to you.

158 The Shadow Do  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:08:02pm

re: #144 Stanley Sea

I don't do the huggy thing on the comment section, but Shadow, you get brackets from me.

Thank you. Trust me, I do know about the evil lurks thing. In fact, I have known for a very long time.

159 Bagua  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:08:23pm

re: #154 cliffster

What makes you say that?

Research I have read which in the last ten years have disproved this cycle of abuse theory as being a primary factor.

160 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:08:26pm

Has anyone else heard the number of children abused by women has been going up? I can't remember where I heard that and am afraid it was some stupid talking head show. Any idea if it is true? I'm gonna mine Google and see if I can find out.

161 Jaerik  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:08:51pm

re: #135 cliffster

In general, victims are exploited by people trying to use the crimes to their advantage - and as you said, they are used as a smokescreen for people wanting to ignore the crimes. The common theme is, victims keep getting victimized. By people that suck.

Agreed, but I think we're seeing two sides of the same coin, here.

You're arguing that a lot of people use these poor kids as a smokescreen to ignore the perpetrator's crimes. (Ex: "These victims clearly show that the real problem is organized religion.")

I'm arguing that by the same argument, a lot of other folks use the kids as a smokescreen to ignore the church's institutional complicity in those same crimes. ("This isn't about organized organized, this is about the victims.")

It's an unfair use of the kids as a rhetorical football either way. It seems like a faulty appeal to emotion by both sides.

162 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:09:23pm

re: #153 Spare O'Lake

I thought it made sense. Do you not think that enemies of Christianity will have a field day with this kind of thing?

Who gives a shit? They hate everything, more or less. Not every topic has to be immediately about the War on Terror.

163 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:09:34pm

re: #159 Bagua

Research I have read which in the last ten years have disproved this cycle of abuse theory as being a primary factor.

Hmm, ok.

164 Irenicum  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:09:43pm

re: #134 Charles

As a Christian I am continually disgusted by what gets represented as "Christian" and as an American I am constantly disgusted by what gets represented as American. I know they're not the same, but I do believe that being an American means behaving in such a way that transcends what we're opposing. And if anyone calls themselves Christian they should, in some sense, actually exhibit what the Bible calls Christian behavior.

165 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:11:31pm

re: #161 Jaerik

Yeah. What I was saying is that the kids get jerked around from both sides. And after they got hurt to begin with.

166 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:13:06pm

re: #160 Escaped Hillbilly

Has anyone else heard the number of children abused by women has been going up? I can't remember where I heard that and am afraid it was some stupid talking head show. Any idea if it is true? I'm gonna mine Google and see if I can find out.

I don't think the number is going up, but maybe we're detecting it where we didn't before.
There was one case in the last 18 months where an adult women abducted a neighbour's child, sexually assaulted her and killed her. I don't know the status of the case now, but the FBI said at the time that it was the only such case they'd ever known of, where the woman wasn't acting in concert with a man.

But of course there have always been cases of women sexually abusing children in their care, their own or others.

167 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:13:36pm

re: #134 Charles

So where are you going with that? Are you trying to say it would be better to ignore or downplay this stuff?

Because it's exactly that kind of attitude that has let these priests get away with warping countless children's lives, for centuries.

You don't ignore this and you don't say it might encourage "the enemy." If you do, you don't have anything that's really worth defending against that enemy.

Ignoring it is no longer an option for the Church or for anyone. Personally, I think the best thing is for the Church to deal with the problem quickly, thoroughly and decisively. At least that way the unavoidable damage can be mitigated and rectified in a shorter time frame.
But suggesting that I'm advocating ignoring the problem when I'm sitting here in the middle of the night thinking about its ramifications is kind of unfair.

168 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:14:48pm

re: #85 Spare O'Lake

Nothing we can do about it.
It's a setback in the war against radical Islam when leaders of our mainstream religious institutions are disgraced. Probably will make it easier for the bastards to get more converts, too.

One would think, after the skalding I gave you on the last thread, that you might consider putting down the bottle and calling it a night.

169 Bagua  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:15:36pm

re: #163 cliffster

Hmm, ok.

I believe the studies by Galynker and Cohen supported the idea of the cycle of abuse, finding that 60 percent had been themselves been abused as children. But a more recent study by Abel found only 30 percent, thus suggesting that while this was a factor, it was not true in the majority of cases.

170 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:15:43pm

re: #99 Stanley Sea

In my opinion, you are combining two different things. This abuse of children in the Catholic church has absolutely nothing to do with Islam.

Except that it mirrors the abuse of children in Islam.

171 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:16:07pm

re: #85 Spare O'Lake

Nothing we can do about it.
It's a setback in the war against radical Islam when leaders of our mainstream religious institutions are disgraced. Probably will make it easier for the bastards to get more converts, too.

The only people getting more converts out of this are the Episcopalians

172 austin_blue  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:16:44pm

re: #130 Bagua

I did read your post, the issue is much more complex than you are phrasing it. It is not accurate to term many pedophiles as "gay" because their victims are male, in many cases they have absolutely no attraction to adult males, strictly pre-pubescent children. (I believe that is actually not 'many' but 'most'). Many will also have adult relationships involving only females. It unfairly demonises gay people to make that allegation and is not supported by the literature I have read.

I didn't say that. I agree with most of what you say.

The range of human sexuality:

Straight
Gay male
Gay female
Bisexual
Null male
Null female
Male pedophiles to females
Male pedophiles to males
Female pedophiles to females
Female pedophiles to males
Pansexuals
Bestiophiles
Necrophiles

Anyone who thinks that society could create that range of kink is nuts. Genetics is genetics, and the range of human sexuality has certainly *not* been encouraged by polite society. Who would *choose* to be a pariah unless it wasn't stronger than the pressure of society?

For the vast majority of us, we are what we are born.

Sucks if you're born a genetic pedophile doesn't it? If you don't choose chemical castration, I suggest a permanent vacation on Johnston Island.

Geez, and I am as hard core a Liberal as any person on this board.

Anybody surprised?

173 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:18:10pm

re: #131 Olsonist

That isn't how I read your postings but perhaps that wasn't how you meant them.

I read that thread too, and it seemed to me that you were misreading Cato. He wasn't in any way trying to deflect from discussion of the Church or the Church's role as an institution, but making broader points about abuse of children in general by people in positions of power.
At a certain point threads on this topic get heated and I think a lot of misreadings and misunderstanding occur.

174 The Shadow Do  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:18:37pm

re: #156 Bagua

It demonstrates that it is a myth that homosexual men are more likely to abuse children than heterosexual men.

I suppose that is a defense, statistically, against unfair perceptions of gay folks. Actually that is a good thing. Fucking up kids knows no gender bounds in my experience.

However, I still do not want a gay boy scout leader any more than I want a male girl scout leader on a camp-out. Sorry, just old fashioned like that.

175 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:19:29pm

re: #172 austin_blue

Straight
Gay male
Gay female
Bisexual
Null male
Null female
Male pedophiles to females
Male pedophiles to males
Female pedophiles to females
Female pedophiles to males
Pansexuals
Bestiophiles
Necrophiles

You're leaving some out.
[Link: www.puritytest.net...]

I score 34% pure btw

176 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:19:50pm

re: #36 Walter L. Newton

Shut the fucking parishes down. You find a parish with this shit going on, and you prove it, shut it down. The same way you would shut down a day care center or other business that you find this kind of abuse going on. Religious organizations are not immune from the laws of the land.

Best idea yet. And of course, turn the priests over to secular authorities. Any attempt to secret them away will be charged as aiding and abetting a known criminal. Stick it to the church with Ceasar's Laws.

177 austin_blue  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:20:29pm

re: #150 iceweasel

Right, but this also ties into Escaped Hillbilly's comment. Paedophilia is its own orientation-- they're attracted to children. Although they might have a preferred victim, boys or girls, the orientation is about hurting children. They'll switch victim type easily when they have to. It isn't proper to describe them imo as 'heterosexual' or 'homosexual', but as paedophiles.

Another relevant feature here: it's one reason why they'll switch gender orientation of victims so easily-- children are lacking secondary sex characteristics. That's one reason why neither heterosexuals nor homosexuals find children to be sexual objects. Only paedophiles do.

Oh, ick. That makes sense. I still want to send them to Johhston Island top rot in Paradise. (Heh)

178 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:21:24pm

A lot of the serious sources are blocked requiring registration and fees to access but I did find one study.

When the data were reanalyzed to exclude these types of cases, the figures indicated 14% of perpetrators against boys and 6% of perpetrators against girls were females acting alone.

The writers came to the conclusion that it is being recognized more but still remains a smaller percent than male perpetrators and whether the number of perps in growing or just the reporting of it is hard to separate yet. Still it jibes with the memory of the nuns one of the earlier posters cited. We shouldn't get to caught up in the priest image.

179 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:21:55pm

re: #156 Bagua

It demonstrates that it is a myth that homosexual men are more likely to abuse children than heterosexual men.

There's the issue of puberty in there. A straight guy is more likely to sleep with a 16 year old female and a gay guy is more likely to sleep with a sixteen year old male. Prepubescents are a different ballgame.

180 Irenicum  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:24:26pm

re: #172 austin_blue

A side question: what exactly is a pan-sexual? I had this very discussion today during lunch at seminary. Yes. I'm not kidding.

181 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:24:57pm

re: #162 iceweasel

Who gives a shit? They hate everything, more or less. Not every topic has to be immediately about the War on Terror.

Oh, now I get it, it's another variation on the "this has nothing to do with Islam" theme. Well sorry, but a splash sends out ripples, whether we like it or not.

182 Bagua  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:25:06pm

re: #174 The Shadow Do

I suppose that is a defense, statistically, against unfair perceptions of gay folks. Actually that is a good thing. Fucking up kids knows no gender bounds in my experience.

However, I still do not want a gay boy scout leader any more than I want a male girl scout leader on a camp-out. Sorry, just old fashioned like that.

I understand. It is an emotive and complex issue.

183 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:25:22pm

re: #180 Irenicum

A side question: what exactly is a pan-sexual? I had this very discussion today during lunch at seminary. Yes. I'm not kidding.

Someone who gets turned on when pots call kettles black.

184 austin_blue  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:25:37pm

And it's time for the rack. Good night, my dear lizards.

Sweet board.

185 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:26:09pm

re: #180 Irenicum

A side question: what exactly is a pan-sexual? I had this very discussion today during lunch at seminary. Yes. I'm not kidding.

I've always figured it means someone who will fuck anything that moves and some things that don't but I'm not sure.

186 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:26:23pm

re: #181 Spare O'Lake

Oh, now I get it, it's another variation on the "this everything has nothing something to do with Islam" theme.

Fixt for accuracy.

187 Irenicum  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:26:32pm

re: #183 Cato the Elder

I actually made that same crack during lunch. Kitchen utensils are hot!

188 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:26:38pm

re: #169 Bagua

I believe the studies by Galynker and Cohen supported the idea of the cycle of abuse, finding that 60 percent had been themselves been abused as children. But a more recent study by Abel found only 30 percent, thus suggesting that while this was a factor, it was not true in the majority of cases.

Interesting. I'll have to look into that.

189 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:26:52pm

re: #180 Irenicum

A side question: what exactly is a pan-sexual? I had this very discussion today during lunch at seminary. Yes. I'm not kidding.


Someone who likes to do it in the kitchen?

190 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:27:51pm
191 Bagua  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:28:17pm

re: #179 Conservative Moonbat

There's the issue of puberty in there. A straight guy is more likely to sleep with a 16 year old female and a gay guy is more likely to sleep with a sixteen year old male. Prepubescents are a different ballgame.

Yes, I am speaking about pedophiles, not ephebophiles. That is a different discussion, though there is some overlap to be sure.

192 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:28:54pm

For the record:

Child abuse in Islam.

193 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:29:00pm
Bisexuality is a sexual orientation characterized by attraction to both the same gender and the opposite gender. Unlike pansexuality, it does not specifically include people who fall outside the gender binary. Pansexuality has been described as a "means to skip the binaries and essentialism of 'bi'."[3]
However, many people who identify as bisexual are actually attracted to people who fall outside the gender binary. These people, who could be described as pansexual, have a variety of reasons for identifying as bisexual, including widespread unfamiliarity with the term "pansexual." Some define bisexuality as "attraction to people from more than one gender".[4] Others contrast "attraction to people of multiple genders" with pansexuality's "attraction regardless of gender".
194 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:29:59pm

re: #179 Conservative Moonbat

A straight guy is more likely to sleep with a 16 year old female

You could put a period after that you know. ;-)

195 Irenicum  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:30:42pm

re: #190 Conservative Moonbat

Thanks CM, I wondered what it actually meant.

196 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:30:57pm

re: #191 Bagua

Yes, I am speaking about pedophiles, not ephebophiles. That is a different discussion, though there is some overlap to be sure.

I just learned a new word for dirty old man.

197 austin_blue  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:31:35pm

re: #180 Irenicum

A side question: what exactly is a pan-sexual? I had this very discussion today during lunch at seminary. Yes. I'm not kidding.

Knot holes in trees.

198 Irenicum  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:31:36pm

re: #189 Escaped Hillbilly

What the fork?!

199 Jaerik  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:31:50pm

re: #180 Irenicum

A side question: what exactly is a pan-sexual? I had this very discussion today during lunch at seminary. Yes. I'm not kidding.

Good luck on that one. I've encountered the label a lot recently, and despite being one of the most open-minded people I know, I'm unable to wrap my head around it.

It seems to me to be just an abstraction layer over bisexual

In other words, rather than saying "I am sexually attracted to guy parts and girl parts," you wrap it by saying "I am sexually attracted to aesthetically pleasing people regardless of what parts they have."

To an engineer like me, it seems like meaningless fluff.

200 windsagio  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:32:06pm

re: #190 Conservative Moonbat

I kind of take that as a part of peoples massive rush to self-identify and be something cool and out of the norm.

In general there's a trend to over-identify sexual preferences.

201 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:34:18pm

re: #198 Irenicum

What the fork?!


Just spoon with me!

202 windsagio  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:34:44pm

re: #200 windsagio

cases in point are Pedophilia and beastiality, which have far more to do with mental illness and messed up ideation (not sure I'm using that right :p) than with gender identity or preference, at least as we normally understand it.

203 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:35:02pm

re: #181 Spare O'Lake

Oh, now I get it, it's another variation on the "this has nothing to do with Islam" theme. Well sorry, but a splash sends out ripples, whether we like it or not.

Calm down, stop worrying, I got you a cat.

204 austin_blue  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:35:03pm

And adios, dear friends. My Horns lost at the horn (heh!), but I didn't have them going past the second round, so no real loss. Time for sleep and sweet dreams to you all.

205 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:35:41pm

re: #186 iceweasel

Fixt for accuracy to stifle rational discussion and facilitate denial of the fact that radical Islam is the enemy and will use our weaknesses against us.

Fixed for the sad truth.

206 Bagua  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:35:43pm

re: #196 Conservative Moonbat

I just learned a new word for dirty old man.

You will also find this referred to as hebephilia or ephebopilia, being a condition of being sexually attracted primarily or exclusively to adolescents.

Note that not all child molesters are pedophiles, nor are all pedophiles child molesters. The same is true of hebephiles.

207 bratwurst  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:36:17pm

re: #186 iceweasel

Fixt for accuracy.

Yeah, somehow this line of reasoning brings to mind the the whole "when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail" aphorism.

208 windsagio  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:36:41pm

re: #205 Spare O'Lake

I'm hate islam to the lack of rational thought.

FiXt for fixedness.

209 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:37:08pm

Well, I guess we've reached the point where despite the ill-reasoned arguments of Spare O'Lake regarding the WOT, pointing out that systemic child abuse occurs in Islam as well as in Catholic parishes garners nary a look nor a ding.

Hmm.

The difference is, most Catholics think there's something wrong with such behavior.

210 Irenicum  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:37:24pm

re: #199 Jaerik

A good point. It does seem to be just one more example of our ever increasing sexual differentiation. It seems to be a illustration of "all of the above" in action. We are a hyper sexualized generation.

211 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:37:34pm

re: #203 goddamnedfrank

Calm down, stop worrying, I got you a cat.

I love it!

Oblomber trollcat.

212 Bagua  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:39:36pm

re: #209 Cato the Elder

Well, I guess we've reached the point where despite the ill-reasoned arguments of Spare O'Lake regarding the WOT, pointing out that systemic child abuse occurs in Islam as well as in Catholic parishes garners nary a look nor a ding.

Hmm.

The difference is, most Catholics think there's something wrong with such behavior.

Which is a big difference. Alternatively we are currently policing a massive Muslim population in Afghanistan where this behaviour is rampant, and widely approved of within the culture according to reports.

213 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:39:42pm

re: #209 Cato the Elder

re: #81 Escaped Hillbilly

Highlights a big difference in cultures. How much you want to bet same thing goes on at the religious schools? But you just will not hear about it. Because it would be the kids thrown out or even killed to eliminate the shame. Maybe not so different now that I think about it. Just a matter of degree.

214 Irenicum  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:41:35pm

re: #201 Escaped Hillbilly

But what of the evil spork? Bwahahaha! Evil degeneracy has entailed, or should I say entaled, our words. Nope; entailed works just fine. Damn that evil ambiguous English language!

215 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:41:55pm

What can we say? We know this sort of thing is going on in Islam. But the Catholic Church is having its own problems right now and is finally reacting to pressure to do something about it...maybe. So that is important to discuss.

216 windsagio  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:42:11pm

Oops gotta go listen to WUB sing Grunge, Gothic, and alternative rock for a few hours. TTY'allL!

217 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:42:30pm

re: #214 Irenicum

But what of the evil spork? Bwahahaha! Evil degeneracy has entailed, or should I say entaled, our words. Nope; entailed works just fine. Damn that evil ambiguous English language!


The spork is pan!

218 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:42:39pm

I really hope the Catholic Church finally deals with this problem once and for all. Get rid of all diddlers and anyone who has engaged in coverups. The Pope needs to issue a mea culpa and also needs to institute structural changes to increase supervision of clergy and to aggressively investigate abuse and call in the civil authorities to prosecute.
Good night.

219 Olsonist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:43:21pm

re: #173 iceweasel

When I made a simple analysis re: #23 and he told me to blow it out my ass, you can imagine that I might have misread him. Or maybe I didn't. Dunno. Don't really care.

220 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:45:38pm

re: #171 Conservative Moonbat

The only people getting more converts out of this are the Episcopalians

The small evangelical churches are also getting some folks, largely from the Latino communities.

221 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:46:36pm

re: #209 Cato the Elder

Well, I guess we've reached the point where despite the ill-reasoned arguments of Spare O'Lake regarding the WOT, pointing out that systemic child abuse occurs in Islam as well as in Catholic parishes garners nary a look nor a ding.

Hmm.

The difference is, most Catholics think there's something wrong with such behavior.

I apologize for ignoring your posts on this thread, but you know why. Remember, though, this has nothing to do with Islam.

Cato came bragging
With jowls all a'sagging
And smelling like putrified kipper
He strained for a rhyme
That would be so sublime
But instead lost his pen in his zipper.

222 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:46:49pm

I hope I die quietly in my sleep like my grandfather. Not yelling and screaming like the people in the car he was driving.

223 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:46:54pm

re: #220 SanFranciscoZionist
I would think the number of atheists or agnostics might swell a bit.

224 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:47:08pm

re: #219 Olsonist

When I made a simple analysis re: #23 and he told me to blow it out my ass, you can imagine that I might have misread him. Or maybe I didn't. Dunno. Don't really care.

That's kinda one reason why I said this topic gets overheated. It's pretty clear to me that you and Cato are on the same side, and so is pretty much everyone commenting on the issue, including me. But threads on the Catholic Church and sexual abuse always do involve fights anyway, despite the fact that we all agree on the important issues about it.
Not casting blame on anyone at all, just making that observation. Apologies if it felt like you were being piled on.

225 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:48:44pm

re: #222 cliffster

I hope I die quietly in my sleep like my grandfather. Not yelling and screaming like the people in the car he was driving.

That is exquisitely sick.

226 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:48:47pm

re: #206 Bagua

You will also find this referred to as hebephilia or ephebopilia, being a condition of being sexually attracted primarily or exclusively to adolescents.

Note that not all child molesters are pedophiles, nor are all pedophiles child molesters. The same is true of hebephiles.

Yeah, I knew the later, just as not all heterosexuals are rapists. My vocabulary was just lacking the earlier terms.

227 Irenicum  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:49:06pm

OK kids. Gotta get some sleep. Keep caring. Each of us can make a difference in the lives we touch. That's why I'm here and elsewhere. What we do impacts whoever we interact with and beyond.

228 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:50:13pm

re: #221 Spare O'Lake

I apologize for ignoring your posts on this thread, but you know why. Remember, though, this has nothing to do with Islam.

Cato came bragging
With jowls all a'sagging
And smelling like putrified kipper
He strained for a rhyme
That would be so sublime
But instead lost his pen in his zipper.

O, Sparrowlake tho't
He could toss pot for pot
With the likes of Sir Jim and his Weasel.

Then along came a man
With a mean, salty rann
And the tosser got pulled by his peezle.

Copyright 2010 Cato the Skald

229 Stanghazi  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:51:07pm

re: #222 cliffster

You have perfect timing.

230 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:51:16pm

re: #228 Cato the Elder

OK old fellah, good night.

231 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:51:41pm

re: #223 Escaped Hillbilly

I would think the number of atheists or agnostics might swell a bit.

Well, yes, but they don't form organizations for the most part.

232 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:53:35pm

re: #229 Stanley Sea

You have perfect timing.

It was getting a little tents.

233 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:55:02pm

re: #224 iceweasel

That's kinda one reason why I said this topic gets overheated. It's pretty clear to me that you and Cato are on the same side, and so is pretty much everyone commenting on the issue, including me. But threads on the Catholic Church and sexual abuse always do involve fights anyway, despite the fact that we all agree on the important issues about it.
Not casting blame on anyone at all, just making that observation. Apologies if it felt like you were being piled on.

I wonder why Spare felt the need to downding this perfectly innocuous comment.

Actually I don't. Butthurt again from the last thread still.

It's ok, Spare. As of a few minutes ago, my karma now equals the number of my comments plus 12,000. So have at it.

234 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:55:06pm

re: #224 iceweasel

That's kinda one reason why I said this topic gets overheated. It's pretty clear to me that you and Cato are on the same side, and so is pretty much everyone commenting on the issue, including me. But threads on the Catholic Church and sexual abuse always do involve fights anyway, despite the fact that we all agree on the important issues about it.
Not casting blame on anyone at all, just making that observation. Apologies if it felt like you were being piled on.

The thing is, I know from abuse.

When someone comes along and says the color of authority under which a Catholic priest abuses children is different in quality from the color of authority under which a father abuses his daughter or son or an imam seals a marriage between a fifty-two-year-old man and a 12-year-old girl or a gorram schismatic Mormon harem keeper in Texas marries his third fifteen-year-old "wife", I get a bit testy.

Abuse is abuse. No excuse.

235 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:55:28pm

Dr. Hook -- She was Only 16


236 Olsonist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:55:57pm

re: #224 iceweasel

Thank you ice, but it amused me no end that Spare O Lake down dinged you for that. Wow.

237 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:57:00pm

re: #233 iceweasel

11,999

238 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:57:05pm

The modern West is in a somewhat unique situation on this. We may be the first society to ever decide that we would place the rights of a child over his or her own body ahead of the family, ahead of the church, ahead of the authority of father, employer, priest, etc.

I can't think of another civilization that ever did this.

We're still ironing the kinks out.

The Muslim world is far, far behind us. But as I keep telling people, I have faith that they will get here, along with the rest of creation.

239 Jaerik  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:57:09pm

It's always amazed me how much of Christianity's preoccupations with sexuality seem to be mostly predicated on the 4th century equivalent of St. Augustine's Livejournal.

"Current mood: frustrated :( "

240 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:57:17pm

re: #236 Olsonist

Thank you ice, but it amused me no end that Spare O Lake down dinged you for that. Wow.

He's been trolling me and others all night-- see the last thread, where various people called him out on it. Or just check the bottom ten comments. Heh.

241 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:58:03pm

re: #237 cliffster

11,999

That's Spare doing some butthurt downdinging. It's cool.

242 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:58:36pm

re: #231 SanFranciscoZionist
More's the better.

243 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:59:32pm

re: #241 iceweasel

I don't hate you or Jimmah.
Mwah.

244 Gus  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 10:59:43pm

re: #162 iceweasel

Who gives a shit? They hate everything, more or less. Not every topic has to be immediately about the War on Terror.

It's like pleading for secrecy in order to keeps the vices from your enemies who could use that information to harm you.

The Chinese communists practiced this and created a secretive society in order to prevent their bad news from becoming what they would see as propaganda to be used against them.

It's also like refusing to call the police if one is being beaten daily by their spouse in order to prevent the neighbors from knowing.

245 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:00:15pm

re: #234 Cato the Elder

The thing is, I know from abuse.

When someone comes along and says the color of authority under which a Catholic priest abuses children is different in quality from the color of authority under which a father abuses his daughter or son or an imam seals a marriage between a fifty-two-year-old man and a 12-year-old girl or a gorram schismatic Mormon harem keeper in Texas marries his third fifteen-year-old "wife", I get a bit testy.

Abuse is abuse. No excuse.

The case of incest is different from the other ones you mention because of the scale to which trust is abused but they are all heinous.

246 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:01:21pm

re: #238 SanFranciscoZionist

The modern West is in a somewhat unique situation on this. We may be the first society to ever decide that we would place the rights of a child over his or her own body ahead of the family, ahead of the church, ahead of the authority of father, employer, priest, etc.

I can't think of another civilization that ever did this.

We're still ironing the kinks out.

The Muslim world is far, far behind us. But as I keep telling people, I have faith that they will get here, along with the rest of creation.

It's funny when people say stuff like, "I don't know if I want to have kids in this world.. it's gotten so bad." What? Do you have any clue how shitty it was every century before this one? We've still got some fucked up stuff, but all in all, this is far and away the finest moment in human history.

247 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:03:23pm

re: #246 cliffster

It's funny when people say stuff like, "I don't know if I want to have kids in this world.. it's gotten so bad." What? Do you have any clue how shitty it was every century before this one? We've still got some fucked up stuff, but all in all, this is far and away the finest moment in human history.

Oh, what does it say about me that I'm torn between passionate updinging for the joyful truth, and muttering to myself that that doesn't say a whole goddamn lot for human history?

248 Bagua  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:03:52pm

Goodnight my friends.

249 Escaped Hillbilly  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:04:40pm

re: #248 Bagua
Good night to you. And to all.

250 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:06:35pm

re: #246 cliffster

It's funny when people say stuff like, "I don't know if I want to have kids in this world.. it's gotten so bad." What? Do you have any clue how shitty it was every century before this one? We've still got some fucked up stuff, but all in all, this is far and away the finest moment in human history.

We've nearly put an end to the horrid abuses of children in past just in time to hand them a multi-trillion dollar debt and a planet that's about to self-destruct. "Here you go kids, hope you enjoyed your childhood because NOW you're fucked."

251 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:07:07pm

re: #247 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, what does it say about me that I'm torn between passionate updinging for the joyful truth, and muttering to myself that that doesn't say a whole goddamn lot for human history?

We're just animals trying not to be animals. It sucks, but, y'know.. I heart accuracy

252 freetoken  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:07:15pm

re: #239 Jaerik

Proposed question for philosophers to ponder:

What if Augustine had Twitter?

253 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:08:41pm

re: #250 Conservative Moonbat

You got that right. But shit, I'm depressed now. Thanks.

254 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:09:02pm

re: #245 Conservative Moonbat

The case of incest is different from the other ones you mention because of the scale to which trust is abused but they are all heinous.

It's all pretty horrible. At a certain point it isn't even possible to sort out the gradations of horror, when they all involve systematic repeated abuse of a child by someone who has power over him or her.
I think that might be the point lots of people are making.

255 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:09:20pm

re: #252 freetoken

Proposed question for philosophers to ponder:

What if Augustine had Twitter?

I've read Augustine and have a philosophy degree. It's just been ten years. Fill me in a bit more on what you're thinking about.

256 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:09:58pm

re: #252 freetoken

Proposed question for philosophers to ponder:

What if Augustine had Twitter?

OMG give me chstity bt not yet. KTHANXBAI. #god #augustine

257 freetoken  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:10:45pm

re: #255 Conservative Moonbat

Heh... Ice said it.

258 freetoken  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:11:03pm

re: #256 iceweasel

Hehe, good one.

259 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:12:16pm

re: #257 freetoken

Heh... Ice said it.

Heh OK, somehow I thought there was supposed to be something deeper to it.

260 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:12:31pm

re: #256 iceweasel

that wuz awsum

261 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:12:52pm

re: #258 freetoken

Hehe, good one.

Thanks-- it occurs to me though that it's pretty tacky of me in the context of this thread. No offense to Augustine intended, it was just my kneejerk Augustine quote.
Apologies if that bothered anyone.

262 freetoken  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:15:12pm

re: #261 iceweasel

Nah, not too tacky, just appropriately snarky.

re: #259 Conservative Moonbat


I'd like to claim that everything I write has some deep meaning... but at times I'm even challenged to find it.

263 Stanghazi  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:15:22pm

re: #261 iceweasel

I'm still laughing. Perfecto.

264 cliffster  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:16:21pm

I reckon I'll go to bed and stare at the ceiling. I'll leave you with this, quoted By MIL of all people. "Life's arsenal: study, believe, pray, act, persist, feel, learn, forgive -- repeat."

night all

265 Jaerik  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:19:11pm

re: #246 cliffster

It's funny when people say stuff like, "I don't know if I want to have kids in this world.. it's gotten so bad." What? Do you have any clue how shitty it was every century before this one?

Upding for truth.

I liken it to how some people assume ancient folk remedies must be better than modern medicine in every way, despite the fact the average person back then dropped dead at 32.

266 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:22:19pm

re: #252 freetoken

Proposed question for philosophers to ponder:

What if Augustine had Twitter?

He'd be outed as a CINO by #tcot.

267 freetoken  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:25:10pm

re: #259 Conservative Moonbat

I do have one serious thought (before I go watch For a Few Dollars More)...

Upstream SpareOL carries on about Islam and the WOT... yet somehow misses the big picture. Too much focus on "the enemy" perhaps? After all, our society (intercontinental modernism) will rise or fall on what we do or don't do over centuries - self indulgence vs. investment, etc.

As SFZ pointed out, our society is pretty unique in the status we give children - as almost equals. In the olden days in civilizations gone by, a youngster might be expected to perform sexual services for his mentor/master, or if it were a female child then she would be sold off to the high bidder. We don't look on these acts as anything close to "normal" anymore, but as a perversions to be shunned.

Islam will not be able to reverse that. If anything, the more awareness of Islam we have the more we shun what appears to us to be medieval (or older) practices.

In Augustine's day he had to deal with a society built around the Roman Empire, but which also included a myriad of local religions/customs. Indeed, if he did have Twitter back then one wonders how he could have absorbed all the differences in practices across the Mediterranean, Europe, and Africa and constructed answers his own faith would have to them.

268 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:25:37pm

no matter what I put into pandora it keeps playing michael jackson

269 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:26:44pm

re: #268 Conservative Moonbat

no matter what I put into pandora it keeps playing michael jackson

Child molester channel?

270 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:27:05pm

re: #263 Stanley Sea

I'm still laughing. Perfecto.

It occurs to me that it could be pretty freaking funny to do philosophers on twitter. I'm sure someone has already done it.

Descartes: Brain in a vat LOL

Hobbes: Tweets R nasty brutal & short!

Sartre: Hell is othr ppl on twitter. U SUCK!1

Wittgenstein: Teh limits of my tweets r the limits of my wld. 140 chars sux!

271 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:28:28pm

re: #270 iceweasel

It occurs to me that it could be pretty freaking funny to do philosophers on twitter. I'm sure someone has already done it.

Descartes: Brain in a vat LOL

Hobbes: Tweets R nasty brutal & short!

Sartre: Hell is othr ppl on twitter. U SUCK!1

Wittgenstein: Teh limits of my tweets r the limits of my wld. 140 chars sux!

Whilst the Top Catholics On Twitter would alla time be sucking up to Aquinas!

272 freetoken  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:30:20pm

re: #271 Cato the Elder

Whilst the Top Catholics On Twitter would alla time be sucking up to Aquinas!

The #tafot channel?

(Top Aquinas Follow On Twitter.)

273 lostlakehiker  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:34:08pm

re: #238 SanFranciscoZionist

The modern West is in a somewhat unique situation on this. We may be the first society to ever decide that we would place the rights of a child over his or her own body ahead of the family, ahead of the church, ahead of the authority of father, employer, priest, etc.

I can't think of another civilization that ever did this.

We're still ironing the kinks out.

The Muslim world is far, far behind us. But as I keep telling people, I have faith that they will get here, along with the rest of creation.

First of all, no they won't. Second of all, this problem of institutions kicking the can down the road is not limited to the Catholic church, nor to religion, nor to questions of pedophilia. Hospitals, as a rule, send on with glowing recommendations those doctors and nurses that they have discovered are serial killers. It avoids lawsuits and blame.

The U.S. government looks the other way as Madoff piles up his stolen fortune. After all, if you were warned, repeatedly and in writing, and with proof, and then you act, the question will arise, why didn't you act sooner. But if you play stupid, then you will be taken for stupid and stupid doesn't get you in much trouble. Everybody expects stupid.

But while we're on the matter of the Catholic church, how about a little credit on the education front? In DC, Catholic schools take their students from the same demographic as the city system. But their results are radically better. DC public schools get the worst results in the nation, and by a whole standard deviation below rural Mississippi. They're off the scale, they're so bad. And what does the government do? It shuts down the alternative system of scholarships for DC students. True, this deprives the thousands of children there who had been getting real educations of the chance for a real education. But more importantly, it serves the patronage needs of the DC system. And that rapes children by the thousands, every year, forever. But only metaphorically. So who cares?

274 Jaerik  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:34:42pm

paul: @peter did u see my smckdwn of romans on my blog? lol [Link: nw.tst...]

275 Cato the Elder  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:40:46pm

re: #270 iceweasel

Plato: idealz are real, reality bites

Socrates: I haz voices in mah head

Heraclitus: flux sux

Pythagoras: dont eat the beanz

Democritus: atomz 'r' us

Protagoras: sensational!

Zeno: rabbitz rulez!!1!

276 freetoken  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:48:10pm
277 freetoken  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:55:04pm

Confucius @themasses #heaven most tweets rulz!

GhengisKahn @Confu #horsesrulz horses dude !!1!

278 Silvergirl  Thu, Mar 18, 2010 11:59:01pm

re: #89 SanFranciscoZionist

Girls pregnant from being molested by clergy and family members in Ireland back in the last century ended up at the 'Magdalen Homes'. The abuse, and the shaming, was brutal.

We're getting better. Slowly.

God willing, the Muslim world will come too, someday.

I was watching tv a couple years ago with a friend and we just happened upon a movie in progress, and we were so stunned by what we were seeing that we watched to the end. I couldn't remember the name until I read your post and just looked it up and found it. The Magdalene Sisters

279 Silvergirl  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:00:10am

re: #276 freetoken

[Video]

Thanks for more of this!

280 freetoken  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:06:27am

re: #279 Silvergirl

Thanks for more of this!

Didn't anyone warn you to not encourage me?

281 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:08:42am

World Net Wing Nut Daily headlines:

Obama helped fund 'Alinsky Academy'
Critics call Census pages 'involuntary colonoscopy'
Becoming a '1-share millionaire'
Barack Obama and the date-rape of America
Hannity calls 'How Evil Works' 'terrific, powerful'
Will the elites control life itself?
Obama's real ID: Undocumented worke

And much much more!

The crazy never stops.

282 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:12:54am

re: #275 Cato the Elder

Sartre: Pythagoras iz an ass: beanz beat nothingness!

283 freetoken  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:15:09am

re: #281 Gus 802

Better yet, their headline story: Explained? New Mexico's Hebrew Ten Commandments

Yeah, Roy Moore is involved.

284 freetoken  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:16:51am

That New Mexico article at WND is pure Art Bell material, btw. It would fit right in with Mel's Hole.

285 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:18:14am

re: #284 freetoken

That New Mexico article at WND is pure Art Bell material, btw. It would fit right in with Mel's Hole.

Just about everything there is Art Bell material. What a trip seeing that Joseph Farah is idolized by a lot of Teabaggers and other assorted wingnuts. Plus there's a lot of scams being sold at WND.

286 freetoken  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:22:41am

re: #285 Gus 802

Yes, it's scam city. Pat Boone et. al. trade their name for $$$ there.

287 freetoken  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:25:51am

YikinKawiil @Confu #heaven choco bEtz gnsing n stone bEtz bambU

288 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:26:46am

re: #281 Gus 802

World Net Wing Nut Daily headlines:

And much much more!

The crazy never stops.

Awesome.

Barack Obama and the date-rape of America

Huh. I'm going to have to check that out. Sounds like a treasure trove of their Fear of a Barack Planet to me.

289 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:27:56am

re: #288 iceweasel

Huh. I'm going to have to check that out. Sounds like a treasure trove of their Fear of a Barack Planet to me.

Yeah. I think they claim it to be humor but not unlike someone we saw earlier sometimes people mask their true feelings with so called humor.

290 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:30:05am

re: #288 iceweasel

Huh. I'm going to have to check that out. Sounds like a treasure trove of their Fear of a Barack Planet to me.

It's a bumper sticker they're selling. Has the text "Undocumented Worker" with a picture of Obama on the right. What a bunch of wankers.

291 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:34:13am

I found some classic wingnuttery today. Crazy body language expert analysing Obama's facial expressions (and his bone structure!!) for a personality analysis. Let me get it. Don't want to direct link it.

292 Ben G. Hazi  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:36:28am

re: #285 Gus 802

Just about everything there is Art Bell material. What a trip seeing that Joseph Farah is idolized by a lot of Teabaggers and other assorted wingnuts. Plus there's a lot of scams being sold at WND.

Hey, Art Bell might have had crazies and loons on CtoC when he was hosting, but at least he was entertaining...George Noori, I could give two shits about.

293 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:37:00am

re: #291 iceweasel

I found some classic wingnuttery today. Crazy body language expert analysing Obama's facial expressions (and his bone structure!!) for a personality analysis. Let me get it. Don't want to direct link it.

That's a favorite of the Rupert Murdoch trash news dynasty. Bill O'Reilly has a "body language" segment every so often.

294 Silvergirl  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:41:29am

I can't remember if I've ever quoted scripture on LGF, but after reading through the thread on this subject, I thought of this one:

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

295 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:46:25am

re: #293 Gus 802

That's a favorite of the Rupert Murdoch trash news dynasty. Bill O'Reilly has a "body language" segment every so often.

Cool, overnight's open-- I'll answer upstairs so as not to derail this thread. Silvergirl's quote is a much nicer end.

296 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 4:54:18am

This new guy they have playing Dr Who had better work out - otherwise it will no doubt send millions of British children straight into the arms of Radical Islam. Ripples and all that.../

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

297 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 5:48:07am

re: #273 lostlakehiker

No, hospitals do not generally send along good recommendations for people that are 'serial killers'.

But more importantly, it serves the patronage needs of the DC system. And that rapes children by the thousands, every year, forever. But only metaphorically. So who cares?

That's fucking asinine. Real rape and metaphorical rape are indeed very goddamn different. You should be ashamed for comparing real, actual, physical rape with failing to deliver on education. You should be ashamed.

How come nearly every post of yours I read is whitewashing something terrible done by a religion?

298 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 8:04:29am

re: #118 Spare O'Lake

we have Cheetohs - Bin-Laden does not...........

Discuss............

299 Sacred Plants  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:25:35am

re: #61 Walter L. Newton

What makes the Catholic Church immune?

Tradition. Though there is no such thing as a formally defined clerical immunity. If there was it could also be formally revoked when necessary.

300 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:40:32am

I'm a little put out that folks are saying this abuse happens in other religions when clearly, the Catholic priests have a far worse problem than anywhere else. We're talking tens of 1000s of children. Where in Judaism, Buddhism and Hinduism do we have this kind of epidemic among the clergy? Maybe you can point to a handful of others, but you'd be hard pressed even then to locate them.

The Pope knows. He doesn't care. At some point, they decided the scandal on the Church is worse than the ruin of 1000s of lives. He's not even ashamed. They should be imprisoned, from the top down, but that won't happen either.

There was an article in CNN this week where one Archbishop was quoted as saying "it's the work of the devil." Fucking bullshit. It's the work of MEN. Evil, devious, sinful MEN. Let's deflect the responsibility more shall we? Ugh.

301 Sacred Plants  Sat, Mar 20, 2010 5:23:10am

It is this moral vanity at the core of the tradition, which leads to the heart of the kinship between Christianity and Islam (mirrored in the hate-love of the Crusaders whose murky shadow of collective bipolar disorder still has not entirely vanished from the Church). This youngest of the large religions was proclaimed against the background of an Europe which had its tribal spirituality shattered by the last of the ancient slave empires, taking the latter down with itself in the process until Christianity absorbed any remaining monopoly on the use of force regardless of political legitimacy (or lack thereof). Is there any precedent in Judaism, Buddhism or Hinduism of aristocrats converting in the name of all of their subjects, dumping their respective bankruptcy assets of evil governance into the everyday exercise of faith, again and again?


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Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
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