AMA Endorses Health Care Reform Bill

Politics • Views: 4,120

The American Medical Association is now officially endorsing President Obama’s health care legislation: AMA Supports House Passage of Health System Reform.

Washington, D.C. – After careful review and consideration, the American Medical Association (AMA) today announced its qualified support for the current health reform bill as a step toward providing coverage to all Americans and improving our nation’s health system.

“The pending bill is imperfect, but we cannot let the perfect be the enemy of the good when it comes to something as important as the health of Americans,” said J. James Rohack, M.D., AMA president. “By extending health coverage to the vast majority of the uninsured, improving competition and choice in the insurance marketplace, promoting prevention and wellness, reducing administrative burdens, and promoting clinical comparative effectiveness research, this bill will help patients and their physicians.”

“While the final product is certainly not what we would have devised, we strongly support the parts of this bill that are desperately needed by millions of Americans who are struggling to get or keep health insurance coverage,” Dr. Rohack said. “We will continue to work with Congress and the administration to solve important issues that cannot be addressed through the reconciliation process.”

“This is not the last step, but the next step toward real health system reform,” Dr. Rohack said. “We will remain actively engaged with Congress and the administration to ensure that before Congress adjourns there are additional important changes to our health system. Congress must act to preserve access to care for seniors and military families by permanently repealing the Medicare physician payment formula that will cut Medicare payments by 21 percent next month. According to an AARP poll, nearly 90 percent of people age 50 and older are concerned that the Medicare physician payment cuts threaten their access to care.”

“Congress must also move immediately to correct problems with the Independent Payment Advisory Board,” Dr. Rohack said. “The current IPAB framework could result in misguided payment cuts that undermine access to care and destabilize health care delivery. The AMA will be relentless in our pursuit of permanent repeal of the Medicare physician payment formula, corrections to IPAB, and other important changes that we outlined in a letter today to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.”

“Every day physicians see the devastating effect that being uninsured has on the health of our patients: They live sicker and die younger,” Dr. Rohack said. “Physicians dedicate their lives to helping patients live healthier and longer, and we have an historic opportunity to do just that.”

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584 comments
1 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:06:42am

Who are doctors to come between an insurance company and their patients!

2 recusancy  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:08:04am

Obama is a closer.

3 Summer Seale  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:08:57am

I endorse it too.

I’m not an expert, but I am pretty awesome. =)

4 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:09:03am

Here’s a new article on the lack of cost containment in the Senate bill, and what it means:

Testing, Testing.


Very good read.

5 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:09:03am

That’s good. I want this to pass.

6 cliffster  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:09:36am

Less than 20% of doctors are in the AMA

I was equally struck, however, by the President’s appeal to physicians for help. “I need your help, doctors” he said. Making such an appeal before the American Medical Association seemed logical. Yet doctors across the country watching that same scene felt frustrated. I heard from hundreds of them, which leads me to believe there were many thousands more.

Increasing numbers of physicians do not see the AMA as their representatives. Less than 20 percent of physicians are AMA members and most of these physicians are not politically engaged. Furthermore, many physicians feel the organization has focused narrowly on representing physicians’ pocketbook interests while doing little to advance the patient-centered ideals that continue to drive many physicians.

7 webevintage  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:09:46am

I also just read the Cao (LA) who has been saying he was a no (even though he did vote yes on the house bill) is now undecided.

8 avanti  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:10:22am

Beck: Health care vote a affront to God.

vote.

9 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:11:23am

re: #6 cliffster

Less than 20% of doctors are in the AMA

Hi cliffster! Yep, posted that on the earlier thread. I particularly liked Dr.Murthy’s close:

If the AMA doesn’t adequately represent physicians, then to whom should legislators be talking? The answer is they should be speaking directly with physicians in communities who are on the front lines of health care. This requires an investment of time and energy on the part of legislators and their staffs. It also requires physicians to be more politically engaged. The emergence of true grassroots physician groups in recent years is an encouraging sign as these groups represent more direct channels for connecting physicians and legislators. For the sake of real health reform, I hope we see more such dialogue in the future.

10 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:12:03am

re: #7 webevintage

I also just read the Cao (LA) who has been saying he was a no (even though he did vote yes on the house bill) is now undecided.

They are having a hard time justifying their no vote based on the lie of abortion coverage. It’s getting tougher when all the Catholic groups are saying yes.

That the opposition used and continues to use false claims is going to bite them in the ass.

11 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:12:08am

re: #6 cliffster

Less than 20% of doctors are in the AMA


I’m sure that if the AMA were to have spoken out against health care reform this statistic would be just as important to you.

12 Soap_Man  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:12:43am

re: #1 drcordell

Who are doctors to come between an insurance company and their patients!

I was opposed to this for a long time. But my girlfriend, who is in med school, has convinced me otherwise. The vast majority of her teachers and docs she works with support this (according to her, of course). I asked my own doctor the last appointment before my surgery this week, and he supports it (he added that he felt it could be much better though)

Obviously, this is just my own corner of the world. But after hearing all these folks (the experts, actually) supporting it, I have a hard time mustering up any opposition.

It’s hard for me to admit that since I am usually strongly opposed to excessive regulation/government spending. But I’ve been convinced.

13 cliffster  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:13:18am

re: #9 subsailor68

Sorry, subsailor - I hit Post and realized I hadn’t given you due props. Good article.

14 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:14:13am

re: #12 Soap_Man

I was opposed to this for a long time. But my girlfriend, who is in med school, has convinced me otherwise. The vast majority of her teachers and docs she works with support this (according to her, of course). I asked my own doctor the last appointment before my surgery this week, and he supports it (he added that he felt it could be much better though)

Obviously, this is just my own corner of the world. But after hearing all these folks (the experts, actually) supporting it, I have a hard time mustering up any opposition.

It’s hard for me to admit that since I am usually strongly opposed to excessive regulation/government spending. But I’ve been convinced.

One of my clients is a physician’s group. I asked (4 Dr.’s) they support it. S. Sea’s Survey results. tm.

15 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:14:33am

re: #9 subsailor68

Here’s one such physicians group:


Physicians for a National Health Program

16 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:15:04am

re: #8 avanti

Beck: Health care vote a affront to God.

vote.

At what point will the Mormon Church speak out against Beck’s lunacy. I’m not exactly the biggest fan of any religion, let alone the Mormons. But they certainly are one of the more active faiths with regard to social justice. And furthermore, they demand a 10% tithe of members income. Income that is *GASP* redistributed by the church from more well-off areas to poorer ones.

17 cliffster  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:15:17am

re: #11 drcordell

I’m sure that if the AMA were to have spoken out against health care reform this statistic would be just as important to you.

You are frequently sure about things that make no sense at all.

18 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:15:18am

re: #4 Obdicut

Here’s a new article on the lack of cost containment in the Senate bill, and what it means:

Testing, Testing.

Very good read.

Hi Obdicut. Thanks for the link! I need to read the whole thing carefully. The think I like about Gawande is the focus on costs he writes about (also read the earlier links you provided to his other articles). I wish our legislators would pay more attention to guys like this and Dr. Murthy!

19 recusancy  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:16:59am

re: #18 subsailor68

Hi Obdicut. Thanks for the link! I need to read the whole thing carefully. The think I like about Gawande is the focus on costs he writes about (also read the earlier links you provided to his other articles). I wish our legislators would pay more attention to guys like this and Dr. Murthy!

Guwande has had Obama’s attention for a long a while now.

20 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:17:24am

re: #14 Stanley Sea

One of my clients is a physician’s group. I asked (4 Dr.’s) they support it. S. Sea’s Survey results. tm.

My doctor was completely for it, as well as all three of my friends who are currently med students. From all the conversations I have had, there isn’t a single group in the U.S. that hates insurance companies more than doctors. Half of their day is spent dealing with piles upon piles of paperwork and legal hoops they must deal with because of insurance issues.

21 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:17:25am

re: #18 subsailor68

Oops! PIMF “The think I like” = “The thing I like”

Although it’s not all bad - ‘cause the thing I like about Gawande is that he thinks.

;-)

22 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:18:50am

re: #18 subsailor68

I agree. My main complain with the Democrats strategy has been that they didn’t involve health professionals enough and didn’t make the economic argument enough.

Here is a survey of physicians and their support or lack thereof for reform:

[Link: www.springerlink.com…]

Abstract:

We asked respondents (physicians engaged in direct patient care) to choose the single option they preferred: 1) “The current health care system, in which most people get their health insurance from private employers, but some people have no insurance”; 2) “A universal insurance program in which everybody is covered under a program like Medicare that is run by government and financed by taxpayers”; or 3) “The current health care system, with the addition of new tax credits for buying, or tax penalties for failing to buy, health insurance”.

9% – The Current Health Care System

42% – Single-Payer National Health Insurance Program

49% – The Current System With Addition of Tax Credits or Penalties

Conclusions: The vast majority of physicians surveyed supported a change in the health care financing system. While a plurality support the use of financial incentives, a substantial proportion support single payer national health insurance. These findings challenge the perception that fundamental restructuring of the U.S. health care financing system receives little acceptance by physicians.

24 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:20:09am

re: #19 recusancy

I know. I just wish he was more front-line on it. I know that Obama is reading his stuff— I wish that Gawande, and others like him, had been involved more directly.

And I feel that most of the failure in presentation has come from the Democratic leadership apart from Obama; he’s been more coherent, if not ideal.

25 cliffster  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:20:52am

re: #20 drcordell

Then it must be really irritating to them that this bill is a giant payoff to the insurance companies.

26 Political Atheist  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:21:06am

I am hoping this bill passes. It is much improved in my view from early drafts. As I wrote before I’m conflicted, but I want this to pass. I also need it to pass, for reasons at home previously mentioned. It’s s decent start.

27 Areozol  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:21:11am

I heard stories about medical personnel in US complaining about new bureaucratic difficulties, that they are facing with health reform. Are they true?

28 avanti  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:21:43am

re: #16 drcordell

At what point will the Mormon Church speak out against Beck’s lunacy. I’m not exactly the biggest fan of any religion, let alone the Mormons. But they certainly are one of the more active faiths with regard to social justice. And furthermore, they demand a 10% tithe of members income. Income that is *GASP* redistributed by the church from more well-off areas to poorer ones.

Sounds a lot like that commie “social justice”/

29 recusancy  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:21:50am

re: #25 cliffster

Then it must be really irritating to them that this bill is a giant payoff to the insurance companies.

Michael Moore? Is that you?

30 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:22:13am

re: #23 Walter L. Newton

That might leave a mark

31 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:22:16am

re: #26 Rightwingconspirator

I’m always surprised, when I read over the bill(s), how much there is in there that I do like.

33 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:23:20am

re: #27 Areozol

I heard stories about medical personnel in US complaining about new bureaucratic difficulties, that they are facing with health reform. Are they true?

Probably not. There’s a bogus poll going around saying that 40% of doctors will quit if the legislation passes. Healthcare opponents are simply making stuff up these days.

34 blueraven  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:23:29am

re: #18 subsailor68

Hi Obdicut. Thanks for the link! I need to read the whole thing carefully. The think I like about Gawande is the focus on costs he writes about (also read the earlier links you provided to his other articles). I wish our legislators would pay more attention to guys like this and Dr. Murthy!

There is no reason to think that this bill will be the end of HCR. I have read all of Gawande’s articles and would love to see his ideas implemented in future legislation. I know the president is a big fan.

35 bratwurst  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:23:33am

re: #16 drcordell

At what point will the Mormon Church speak out against Beck’s lunacy.

Some already have!

[Link: www.deseretnews.com…]

36 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:23:54am

re: #25 cliffster

Then it must be really irritating to them that this bill is a giant payoff to the insurance companies.

Well, reading this Politico article may answer some more questions about payoffs…

[Link: www.politico.com…]

37 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:24:12am

re: #27 Areozol

I heard stories about medical personnel in US complaining about new bureaucratic difficulties, that they are facing with health reform. Are they true?

The thing that comes to mind is the false survey talked up on Fox repeatedly. Survey said that Doctors would be quitting if HCR was passed. Turns out the survey was published by a recruiting company that was pushing the meme that you will need their recruiting service if HCR passes. Marketing ploy. But Fox on it’s many shows, including Bill O’Reilly, pushed this “survey” as a legitimate sign of things to come.

38 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:24:30am

re: #25 cliffster

Then it must be really irritating to them that this bill is a giant payoff to the insurance companies.

If only there had been some sort of two-party political system in this country where compromise bill could have been crafted…

39 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:25:56am

re: #34 blueraven

That’s Gawande’s point in the most recent article— demanding that a single bill be all things to all men is ridiculous.

40 recusancy  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:26:05am

re: #36 Walter L. Newton

Hey… Can you spam that link some more?

41 cliffster  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:27:07am

re: #36 Walter L. Newton

Well, reading this Politico article may answer some more questions about payoffs…

[Link: www.politico.com…]

Yeah, business as usual.

42 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:27:31am

Good to hear that the group most responsible for escalating health care costs far beyond the rate of inflation is solidly supporting this bill.

43 Areozol  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:27:38am

re: #37 Stanley Sea

Thanks. I gotta love Lizaroids for quick clarifications like this…

44 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:28:09am

re: #6 cliffster

Less than 20% of doctors are in the AMA

I think you misunderstand Dr. Vivek Muthy’s point here and while at the time he wrote that article he was expressing his dissatisfaction with the AMA not as a lead in to oppose health care reform but to support Obama’s health care reform proposals.

He went on to become the President and Co-Founder of Doctors for America alongside Sen. Max Baucus (D - MT) and the Center for American Progress Action Fund. Their recent press releases include:

Doctors For America Praises Health Reform Fixes Unveiled Today, Good For Patients And Doctors
March 18, 2010

WASHINGTON, DC Today Doctors for America expressed support for the new health reform legislation unveiled today and praised the inclusion of a new provision to improve access to primary care physicians in the Medicaid program - one of the organizations top priorities. Coupled with technical fixes expected to be accepted by the Senate, the bill represents a positive move toward meaningful improvements for the health care system physicians work in everyday.

Doctors Join President Obama To Urge Health Reform Forward
March 3, 2010

WASHINGTON, DC Today, Doctors for America members attended the President’s announcement laying out the way forward on health care reform. Physician members expressed their frustration with the slow pace of reform moving forward to this point but retained optimism that the health care summit at Blair House coupled with today’s announcement will push patient-centered reform efforts across the finish line.

This would put Dr. Muthy and Doctor’s for America in agreement with today’s announcement by the AMA.

45 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:28:29am

re: #40 recusancy

Hey… Can you spam that link some more?

Yawn.

46 blueraven  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:29:54am

re: #32 Walter L. Newton

Gee… I wonder why the AMA endorsed this…

“As most health staff knows, leadership and the White House are working with the AMA to rally physicians for a full SGR repeal later this spring. However, both health and communications staff should understand we do not want that policy discussion discussed at this time, lest (it) complicate the last critical push to pass health reform,” according to the memo.

The whole “doc fix” issue is a problem with or without this bill. It is a separate issue that has to be solved.

Maybe the republicans who started this thing (cuts) in the first place, but refused to fund, will take it on. /

47 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:30:00am

re: #42 SixDegrees

Good to hear that the group most responsible for escalating health care costs far beyond the rate of inflation is solidly supporting this bill.

I’d want to inflate my paycheck too if I had $300,000 worth of medical school debt to pay off.

48 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:32:54am

re: #46 blueraven

The whole “doc fix” issue is a problem with or without this bill. It is a separate issue that has to be solved.

Maybe the republicans who started this thing (cuts) in the first place, but refused to fund, will take it on. /

What ever… it certainly could explain the AMA endorsement, couldn’t it. Did you see the actual memo?

49 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:33:21am
50 cliffster  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:35:16am

re: #38 drcordell

If only there had been some sort of two-party political system in this country where compromise bill could have been crafted…

Hehe, liberal talking points set on repeat, droning on and on

51 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:35:19am

re: #46 blueraven

The whole “doc fix” issue is a problem with or without this bill. It is a separate issue that has to be solved.

Maybe the republicans who started this thing (cuts) in the first place, but refused to fund, will take it on. /

Oh please, between that 371 billion and the 500 billion in medicaid “cuts” they continue to count twice we’re looking at almost a $1 trillion dollar defecit in just the first 10 years. This bill is a sham, the only people not getting a payoff are the taxpayers.

52 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:37:15am

re: #51 RogueOne

Can you explain what you mean about Medicaid cuts being counted twice, please?

53 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:37:16am

re: #25 cliffster

As this is a bi-partisan bill, and i had been pondering the GOP input - there it must be in a nutshell.

54 bluewater  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:37:30am

re: #20 drcordell

Speaking as a northeastern pediatric sub-specialist: My colleagues and I are certainly for it. No, we don’t think it goes far enough, but it goes somewhere and we have to make some start.

It would be a lot easier to feel like a decent (or maybe even good) doctor if every sick child had some kind of decent insurance.

55 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:37:41am

re: #50 cliffster

Hehe, liberal talking points set on repeat, droning on and on

Yes. It’s a “talking point” to say that the Republicans are purposely obstructing the passage of this bill. A Republican talking point. Honestly, if you’re going to act like an idiot do it somewhere else.

56 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:38:36am

re: #52 Obdicut

Can you explain what you mean about Medicaid cuts being counted twice, please?


It’s a wingnut talking point. They are trying to claim Obama’s spending the Medicare savings twice. He’s not, it’s the usual lies we’ve come to expect.

57 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:39:08am

re: #50 cliffster

Cliffster, what do you think of the poll of practicing physicians I posted above?

58 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:39:23am

re: #52 Obdicut

Can you explain what you mean about Medicaid cuts being counted twice, please?

They keep telling us this bill cuts the deficit by removing 500 billion dollars while at the same saying they’re going to take that 500 billion and spend it elsewhere. You cannot save 500 bill by spending 500 bill. That’s straight from the CBO.

59 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:39:44am

re: #56 Killgore Trout

It’s a wingnut talking point. They are trying to claim Obama’s spending the Medicare savings twice. He’s not, it’s the usual lies we’ve come to expect.

The CBO is part of a wingnut plot?

60 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:40:14am

re: #54 bluewater

Speaking as a northeastern pediatric sub-specialist: My colleagues and I are certainly for it. No, we don’t think it goes far enough, but it goes somewhere and we have to make some start.

It would be a lot easier to feel like a decent (or maybe even good) doctor if every sick child had some kind of decent insurance.

As I’ve said before, and I’ll say again. We’re already providing health coverage to everyone in this country, even those who can’t afford it. It’s just being done in a horrendously inefficient manner. Sick children aren’t left to die in the street if they lack insurance. They’re left unable to afford the preventative treatments and preliminary doctors visits that would keep them healthy, until the hospital ends up eating the cost of their catastrophic, preventable illness. And by “eating the cost” I mean passing it along to those who have the means to pay for their medical treatment.

61 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:40:41am

re: #58 RogueOne

I’m sorry, but repeating the assertion doesn’t really clear it up for me at all. Can you link to something describing this, or show me where it is in the CBO, or something?

62 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:41:46am

It is a little unsettling to me that the concept behind the two Medicare issues (the cuts in the HCR bill and the proposed addition of the $371 billion in reimbursement to be handled in other legislation) appear to be separable to the proponents of the HCR proposal.

It would seem to me that, in addressing the overall projected costs of health “care” reform, it is a little cynical for legislators to say, in effect, “The cuts in Medicare are necessary to achieve savings”, but then totally ignore the costs associated with repealing Medicare cuts to doctors. Do not those costs also impact the overall scoring of the total cost of “reform” as proposed?

63 blueraven  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:41:52am

re: #51 RogueOne

Oh please, between that 371 billion and the 500 billion in medicaid “cuts” they continue to count twice we’re looking at almost a $1 trillion dollar defecit in just the first 10 years. This bill is a sham, the only people not getting a payoff are the taxpayers.

There are no cuts in Medicaid, quite the contrary. The cuts are from the Medicare Advantage program. Please get your facts straight.

64 cliffster  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:41:53am

re: #57 Obdicut

Cliffster, what do you think of the poll of practicing physicians I posted above?

I haven’t had a chance to look over it. But I will say we’ve gotten into quite the dualing-polls mode. You have your poll that proves your point, someone else has their poll that proves your point is wrong.

65 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:42:00am

re: #11 drcordell

I’m sure that if the AMA were to have spoken out against health care reform this statistic would be just as important to you.

The only thing to extract from that headline is the 20 percent figure which I assume is a way of discrediting AMA’s announcement in support of Obama’s health care reform. As I noted in my #44 the author is in fat in support of this reform but at the time felt AMA’s reluctance was troubling. It also fails to point out this text from the same article regarding the 20 percent figure:

Increasing numbers of physicians do not see the AMA as their representatives. Less than 20 percent of physicians are AMA members and most of these physicians are not politically engaged. Furthermore, many physicians feel the organization has focused narrowly on representing physicians’ pocketbook interests while doing little to advance the patient-centered ideals that continue to drive many physicians.

Today announcement should reverse Dr. Murthy’s frustration with the AMA.

66 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:43:17am

re: #64 cliffster

Why would you say that? Can you point to a poll— one with any credibility— that opposes mine?

67 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:43:27am

re: #58 RogueOne

They keep telling us this bill cuts the deficit by removing 500 billion dollars while at the same saying they’re going to take that 500 billion and spend it elsewhere. You cannot save 500 bill by spending 500 bill. That’s straight from the CBO.

Let’s say you have two tasks to accomplish. You want to fix the roof on your house and redo the kitchen. You only have $50,000 to do it. And your estimate for the roof repair was originally $50,000.

Through cost savings, you were able to drop that cost to $25,000 for the roof. You then spend the $25,000 you “saved” on re-doing your kitchen. Yes, you ended up spending $50,000. You didn’t actually “save” any money. But yet you had your roof fixed, and your kitchen redone. Whereas before you were going to still spend $50,000 to only fix your roof.

Does that analogy make sense?

68 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:45:36am

CBO, part of the wingnut fringe:

[Link: sessions.senate.gov…]


The key point is that the savings to the HI trust fund under the PPACA would be received by the government only once, so they cannot be set aside to pay for future Medicare spending and, at the same time, pay for current spending on other parts of the legislation or on other programs. Trust fund accounting shows the magnitude of the savings within the trust fund, and those savings indeed improve the solvency of that fund; however, that accounting ignores the burden that would be faced by the rest of the government later in redeeming the bonds held by the trust fund. Unified budget accounting shows that the majority of the HI trust fund savings would be used to pay for other spending under the PPACA and would not enhance the ability of the government to redeem the bonds credited to the trust fund to pay for future Medicare benefits. To describe the full amount of HI trust fund savings as both improving the government’s ability to pay future Medicare benefits and financing new spending outside of Medicare would essentially double-count a large share of those savings and thus overstate the improvement in the government’s fiscal position.

69 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:45:46am

Here is the actual memo discussing the restoring of the funds to doctors…

[Link: www.politico.com…]

70 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:48:19am

re: #67 drcordell

Let’s say you have two tasks to accomplish. You want to fix the roof on your house and redo the kitchen. You only have $50,000 to do it. And your estimate for the roof repair was originally $50,000.

Through cost savings, you were able to drop that cost to $25,000 for the roof. You then spend the $25,000 you “saved” on re-doing your kitchen. Yes, you ended up spending $50,000. You didn’t actually “save” any money. But yet you had your roof fixed, and your kitchen redone. Whereas before you were going to still spend $50,000 to only fix your roof.

Does that analogy make sense?

No, you cannot save 500 if you spend 500. Either way you’re out the 500. They took it out to try to claim this bill is budget neutral, it’s shady accounting. They plan on spending that money, there are no savings.

71 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:49:26am

re: #69 Walter L. Newton

Here is the actual memo discussing the restoring of the funds to doctors…

[Link: www.politico.com…]

Not sure what to believe, it’s getting exciting..

Dems say memo is a fake

72 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:49:48am

I eagerly await Glenn’s blackboard and how the AMA is some radical progressive organization with ties to Teddy Roosevelt. Glenn would have loved Obama’s speech today at Mason. He referenced Teddy more than a few times. Even mentioned Nixon.

73 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:50:14am

re: #70 RogueOne

Voodoo bookkeeping.

74 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:50:29am

re: #68 RogueOne

Thank you, Rogue. Do you know which bill that was scored for?

75 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:50:38am

re: #71 Stanley Sea

Not sure what to believe, it’s getting exciting..

Dems say memo is a fake

Could be… I’m just spamming links… I don’t know. I think we may need a throbbing memo test.

76 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:50:40am

re: #71 Stanley Sea

Not sure what to believe, it’s getting exciting..

Dems say memo is a fake

“We have checked with every Democratic office, no one has ever seen it. It did not come out of a Democratic office,” the aide said, adding that media outlets printing the memo have not checked with leadership offices if the memo is authentic. A second Democratic leadership aide confirmed the memo was not sent by the Democrats. A third Democratic aide also said the memo is fake, citing the “draft” stamp and saying no one uses such things.

“If this were a Democratic communications person who wrote this, they should be fired, because this looks like Republican talking points,” the third Democratic aide told TPMDC.

77 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:50:55am

re: #71 Stanley Sea

… and the clot plot thickens.

78 researchok  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:51:00am

The AMA is an association and lobbying group. Their approval is not predicated on what is best for patients but rather on what is best for themselves.

What did the administration promise them to gain their support?

One person in a position to know told me doctors will get a tax credit equal to the amount they take in for medical services paid for by the federal government.

Further, I’d like to know if there was any deal not to cut fees paid for by the government (a la medicare) for an extended period of time. That would translate into higher taxes.

79 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:52:18am

re: #77 Radicchio ad Absurdum

… and the clot plot thickens.

I actually love watching the process, it doesn’t piss me off like it does others, but I’m kind of a nerd that way.

80 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:52:31am

re: #70 RogueOne

Lets make it simpler.

Let’s say you’re buying a bag of Doritos, and you have a $1 off coupon.

By your logic, you haven’t saved a dollar on those Doritos unless you never spend that $1 again.

81 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:53:50am

re: #80 windsagio

Cheetos, not Doritos.

82 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:53:55am

re: #75 Walter L. Newton

If it is fake (and if the GOP is actually responsible), that’s going pretty damn far.

83 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:54:16am

re: #81 Stanley Sea

eeh, pick your poison :P

84 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:54:42am

re: #70 RogueOne

No, you cannot save 500 if you spend 500. Either way you’re out the 500. They took it out to try to claim this bill is budget neutral, it’s shady accounting. They plan on spending that money, there are no savings.

Unless you consider the fact that the Government was going to spend even more money to accomplish both. You are trying to act as if there is a possibility of simply not spending anything.

These costs are currently being borne by Americans regardless. Whether its taxes, insurance premiums, or wage decreases to pay for more expensive corporate benefits. Whether you like it or not, you’re paying for it. Attempting to save money by acknowledging the inevitability of these costs is being responsible. What is irresponsible is screaming about the impact of these cost-saving measures on the budget by comparing them to the cost of doing nothing.

85 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:54:44am

Synagogue Bomb Suspects: The Feds Put Us Up to It!

Defense attorneys say an alleged plot to bomb New York synagogues was hatched and directed by a federal informant.

Lawyers for four men from Newburgh have filed a motion to dismiss the terror indictment against them.

They said the informant badgered the defendants until they got involved in the plot.

They said the informant chose the targets, supplied fake bombs for the synagogues and a fake missile to shoot down planes. The motion said he also offered to pay the defendants, who attorneys alleged weren’t inclined toward any crime until the informant began recruiting them.

86 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:55:31am

re: #80 windsagio

Windsagio, it seems Rogue has raised a perfectly valid point. I don’t think analogies to Doritos matter much.

However, Rogue, the document you linked is not talking about $500 billion in medicaire ‘cuts’ at any point. Where did you get the $500 billion figure from?

The line before you began quoting says:

However, the additional savings by the government as a whole—which represent the true increase in the ability to pay for future Medicare benefits or other programs—would be a good deal smaller.

Doesn’t this indicate that there is savings to the government as a whole?

87 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:56:23am

re: #86 Obdicut

I beg to differ. He’s saying saved money isn’t saved unless you never spend it again, and that’s silly.

88 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:56:30am

re: #67 drcordell

Let’s say you have two tasks to accomplish. You want to fix the roof on your house and redo the kitchen. You only have $50,000 to do it. And your estimate for the roof repair was originally $50,000.

Through cost savings, you were able to drop that cost to $25,000 for the roof. You then spend the $25,000 you “saved” on re-doing your kitchen. Yes, you ended up spending $50,000. You didn’t actually “save” any money. But yet you had your roof fixed, and your kitchen redone. Whereas before you were going to still spend $50,000 to only fix your roof.

Does that analogy make sense?

In general, yes it does. However, what’s not addressed is that - in your analogy - it is presumed that the $50,000 you spent came either from the fruits of your labors, or a decision to borrow that money with the understanding you would be responsible for repaying the loan.

Unfortunately, legislators don’t spend money obtained from the fruits of their labors, and as we can see from the national debt, are not much concerned with repaying loans.

89 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:56:59am

re: #82 windsagio

If it is fake (and if the GOP is actually responsible), that’s going pretty damn far.

Oh… I agree… but even so… there will probably be plausible deniability… an aide did it… something like that… it’s not impossible but I don’t suspect there was a dozen senators who sat down and said… “let’s draft a phony memo.”

If it’s fake (and it certainly could be), I see a small rogue effort. But, the plot thickens.

90 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:57:02am

re: #74 Obdicut

Thank you, Rogue. Do you know which bill that was scored for?

It’s the scoring for the senate version, the president was asked about it during the fox interview the other evening.

91 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:57:39am

re: #85 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If the accusation were to be actually true, it’d be a perfect illustration of the problem with informants.

92 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:57:46am

re: #79 Stanley Sea

I actually love watching the process, it doesn’t piss me off like it does others, but I’m kind of a nerd that way.

I’m with you. IMO, politics is a sporting event. A blood sport.

93 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:58:00am

re: #88 subsailor68

In general, yes it does. However, what’s not addressed is that - in your analogy - it is presumed that the $50,000 you spent came either from the fruits of your labors, or a decision to borrow that money with the understanding you would be responsible for repaying the loan.

Unfortunately, legislators don’t spend money obtained from the fruits of their labors, and as we can see from the national debt, are not much concerned with repaying loans.

So lets cut spending somewhere else. Maybe the defense budget which accounts for over 28% of all tax revenues?

94 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:58:11am

re: #5 Walter L. Newton

That’s good. I want this to pass.

Glad to hear it. It sounded downstairs as though you were losing the faith.

95 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:58:18am

re: #89 Walter L. Newton

Yeah it certainly does. This is watergate (or rathergate if you prefer) stuff now :)


I love a good political thriller!

96 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:58:55am

re: #80 windsagio

Lets make it simpler.

Let’s say you’re buying a bag of Doritos, and you have a $1 off coupon.

By your logic, you haven’t saved a dollar on those Doritos unless you never spend that $1 again.

If you don’t actually have that dollar to begin with and you spend the dollar you “saved”, you’re still down a dollar.

97 HoosierHoops  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:59:17am

re: #72 HappyWarrior

I eagerly await Glenn’s blackboard and how the AMA is some radical progressive organization with ties to Teddy Roosevelt. Glenn would have loved Obama’s speech today at Mason. He referenced Teddy more than a few times. Even mentioned Nixon.

Well he called FDR a commie the other day.. Might as well call Teddy one also.

98 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:59:28am

re: #93 drcordell

So lets cut spending somewhere else. Maybe the defense budget which accounts for over 28% of all tax revenues?

Heh, I’m certainly not opposed to cutting spending. If there are legitimate cuts to be made in defense spending I’m good with it.

99 Soap_Man  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:59:44am

re: #89 Walter L. Newton

Oh… I agree… but even so… there will probably be plausible deniability… an aide did it… something like that… it’s not impossible but I don’t suspect there was a dozen senators who sat down and said… “let’s draft a phony memo.”

If it’s fake (and it certainly could be), I see a small rogue effort. But, the plot thickens.

Even a small rogue effort would be disastrous for the party. It would be a “have you no shame” moment.

And even if it was just one aide, Dems could say “Republicans tried to derail HRC by fraud” and it would be an accurate statement.

100 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 11:59:46am

re: #16 drcordell

At what point will the Mormon Church speak out against Beck’s lunacy. I’m not exactly the biggest fan of any religion, let alone the Mormons. But they certainly are one of the more active faiths with regard to social justice. And furthermore, they demand a 10% tithe of members income. Income that is *GASP* redistributed by the church from more well-off areas to poorer ones.

The Mormons may be hoping that if they don’t say anything, no one will notice that Beck is a Mormon.

101 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:00:12pm

re: #89 Walter L. Newton


If it’s fake (and it certainly could be), I see a small rogue effort. But, the plot thickens.

I didn’t do it. I didn’t sleep with that woman, Ms. Lewinski, either.

102 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:00:27pm

re: #93 drcordell

In fairness - they are working towards that, albeit painfully slowly.

Theres a bi partisan panel cutting obsolete programmes and their funding - i’m not sure the money is going to the deficit though :-(

103 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:00:40pm

re: #98 subsailor68

Heh, I’m certainly not opposed to cutting spending. If there are legitimate cuts to be made in defense spending I’m good with it.

I just can’t fathom that we ABSOLUTELY NEED to spend more money on our military than just about the rest of the entire world combined.

104 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:00:55pm

re: #96 RogueOne

OK, I get where you’re coming from now, thanks.

… sometimes it takes me a while first thing in the morning :P

105 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:01:42pm

I have to run, we’ll still be having this argument for years after the bill is deemed to have passed anyway. I’ll catch up later.

Time to take the dogs for a run!

106 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:02:10pm

re: #103 drcordell

The real reason they’re so unwilling to cut military $$$ is that it supports alot of jobs. There’s just no way around the economic impact.

107 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:02:43pm

re: #101 RogueOne

I didn’t do it. I didn’t sleep with that woman, Ms. Lewinski, either.

My cigar, on the other hand…

108 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:04:11pm

re: #97 HoosierHoops

Well he called FDR a commie the other day.. Might as well call Teddy one also.

And what about Eleanor!!!!!

109 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:04:46pm

re: #90 RogueOne

Okay. And where are you getting the $500 billion part from?

And doesn’t that CBO score still say that the government will be saving money?

110 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:05:01pm

re: #103 drcordell

I just can’t fathom that we ABSOLUTELY NEED to spend more money on our military than just about the rest of the entire world combined.

Well, we do spend a lot, but here’s an interesting link as to percent of GDP, share of overall, etc.

List of countries by military expenditure

But overall, I agree - we should be looking for ways to save wherever feasible (without endangering legitimate defense needs).

111 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:05:35pm

re: #105 RogueOne

+ for running!

Also; I still think that this ‘controversy’ will largely vanish after the bill is passed, seeing how its mainly fed by a concerted political/media campaign.

112 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:07:00pm

re: #103 drcordell

Cheney actually wanted to do an overhaul of our defense spending because so much of it is tied up in fraud and waste. The costs are much, much higher than they are for medicair/medicaid.

[Link: www.salon.com…]

113 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:08:08pm

re: #106 windsagio

The real reason they’re so unwilling to cut military $$$ is that it supports alot of jobs. There’s just no way around the economic impact.

We all know that Government spending hasn’t created a single job in history.

///

114 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:08:10pm

re: #67 drcordell

Let’s say you have two tasks to accomplish. You want to fix the roof on your house and redo the kitchen. You only have $50,000 to do it. And your estimate for the roof repair was originally $50,000.

Through cost savings, you were able to drop that cost to $25,000 for the roof. You then spend the $25,000 you “saved” on re-doing your kitchen. Yes, you ended up spending $50,000. You didn’t actually “save” any money. But yet you had your roof fixed, and your kitchen redone. Whereas before you were going to still spend $50,000 to only fix your roof.

Does that analogy make sense?

You only save fifty percent of the cost of each job by dramatically reducing the quality of the work, the quality of product ,or the quality of both.

115 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:08:33pm

re: #91 windsagio

If the accusation were to be actually true, it’d be a perfect illustration of the problem with informants.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

116 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:08:36pm

OT:

Random funny comic: “God’s intervention

117 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:08:42pm

Politico removed the memo, until they can verify it.

An earlier post in this spot detailed what was purported by Republicans to be an internal Democratic memo regarding the upcoming health reform vote Sunday. Democratic leadership has challenged the authenticity of the memo. POLITICO has removed the memo and the details about it until we can absolutely verify the document’s origin.

Politico

118 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:08:59pm

re: #109 Obdicut

Okay. And where are you getting the $500 billion part from?

And doesn’t that CBO score still say that the government will be saving money?

It reduces the Deficit $130 billion over the first 10 years. Over a trillion in the 10 years after that. That’s why the wingnuts refuse to accept or acknowledge the CBO report.

119 Soap_Man  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:09:15pm

re: #117 Stanley Sea

Politico removed the memo, until they can verify it.

Politico

This could be a major FAIL by Politico.

120 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:09:23pm

re: #117 Stanley Sea

(Deserved) egg on their face.

121 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:09:45pm

re: #118 Killgore Trout

The one question no one will answer me on is:

What is the cost of not passing this bill?

122 filetandrelease  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:09:53pm

I wonder if we will ever get the details on the last minute back room deal they got for the endorsement.

123 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:10:06pm

And from Whether Or Not Central… at 8200 feet in the Colorado Rockies… a half a foot and still coming down… a snowy day picture…

Image: march19.JPG

124 Soap_Man  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:10:14pm

re: #118 Killgore Trout

It reduces the Deficit $130 billion over the first 10 years. Over a trillion in the 10 years after that. That’s why the wingnuts refuse to accept or acknowledge the CBO report.

The CBO is the non-partisan score keeper for the senate. Except when they disagree with the platform. Then they are just hacks.

125 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:10:28pm

re: #117 Stanley Sea

Politico removed the memo, until they can verify it.

Politico

No surprise there. Even if it’s fake the wingnuts will still believe it anyways. Lies are all they have left at this point.

126 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:10:52pm

re: #110 subsailor68

Well, we do spend a lot, but here’s an interesting link as to percent of GDP, share of overall, etc.

List of countries by military expenditure

But overall, I agree - we should be looking for ways to save wherever feasible (without endangering legitimate defense needs).

Why isn’t Israel on that list?

Don’t many countries depend on a strong U.S. military to protect them, and therefore don’t spend as much on their own military?

127 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:11:00pm

re: #123 Walter L. Newton

I’d say ‘good the country needs more snowpack’, but I’m not sure that’d be a comfort for you >>

128 blueraven  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:11:07pm

re: #114 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You only save fifty percent of the cost of each job by dramatically reducing the quality of the work, the quality of product ,or the quality of both.

Or maybe you just cut out some contractor kickbacks.

129 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:11:36pm

re: #125 Killgore Trout

No, it appears they also have a concerted push to call the doctors greedy and blame them primarily for the rising cost of health care.

I do think that the way that physician compensation works right now is not good for controlling costs, but I’m not quite willing to just blame doctors.

130 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:11:52pm

re: #126 Alouette

Why isn’t Israel on that list?

Don’t many countries depend on a strong U.S. military to protect them, and therefore don’t spend as much on their own military?

If that’s the case, why is my wealth being “redistributed” to pay for the security of some foreigner?

131 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:12:02pm

re: #126 Alouette

Israel is on that list.

132 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:12:05pm

re: #123 Walter L. Newton

And from Whether Or Not Central… at 8200 feet in the Colorado Rockies… a half a foot and still coming down… a snowy day picture…

[Link: newton.acrossthebow.com…]

Beautiful!

133 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:12:19pm

re: #114 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Not always.

If there is overstock and or employees on a montly rate going idle - having some work is better than no work.

If a firm loses $2000 a week - but can sell below previous cost and get the weeks loss down to $1000 i think they’d do it.

134 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:12:24pm

re: #126 Alouette

Why isn’t Israel on that list?

Don’t many countries depend on a strong U.S. military to protect them, and therefore don’t spend as much on their own military?

Yes, that’s true - but I’d have to find a link to stats on military aid numbers to other countries to be able to tell you how much that would be.

135 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:12:57pm

re: #126 Alouette

heh, are you saying that would be a good thing or a bad thing?

136 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:13:08pm

re: #134 subsailor68

We’d also have to define exactly what we’re protecting them from.

137 KingKenrod  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:13:20pm

re: #103 drcordell

I just can’t fathom that we ABSOLUTELY NEED to spend more money on our military than just about the rest of the entire world combined.

We’ve played the good cop since the end of WWII, other countries have been glad to let us, particularly our navy. If you want to cut back on defense, fine, but be prepared for the resulting instability.

138 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:13:25pm

re: #128 blueraven

Heresy against doctrine.

139 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:13:29pm

re: #121 Obdicut

The one question no one will answer me on is:

What is the cost of not passing this bill?

What is the cost of not passing this bill?


I don’t know. I suppose eventually (10 years or so) we’ll have only a relatively small portion of the population who can afford to pay their healtcare bills or insurance premiums. I couldn’t really say what the exact effect that would have on the economy.

140 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:13:29pm

re: #136 Obdicut

We’d also have to define exactly what we’re protecting them from.

LOL! Good point!

141 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:13:36pm

re: #122 filetandrelease

I wonder if we will ever get the details on the last minute back room deal they got for the endorsement.

I must agree with Dr. Cordell. I think that if the AMA had gone the other way on this issue, we would see a different breakdown of who in this room considers them an authoritative organization, and above reproach.

142 Soap_Man  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:13:37pm

re: #129 Obdicut

No, it appears they also have a concerted push to call the doctors greedy and blame them primarily for the rising cost of health care.

I do think that the way that physician compensation works right now is not good for controlling costs, but I’m not quite willing to just blame doctors.

Remember when the doctors were the sages who deserved our complete respect? All the “Don’t let the government interfere with doctors” and such?

How things have changed eh?

143 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:13:56pm

re: #118 Killgore Trout

I argued that the CBO was non-partisan during the Bush years. It would be disingenuous for me to say that now it is part of an “Obama Deception”.

144 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:14:14pm

re: #125 Killgore Trout

No surprise there. Even if it’s fake the wingnuts will still believe it anyways. Lies are all they have left at this point.

They’ll always have the (fake) NEJM survey.

145 swamprat  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:15:08pm

To retain respect for laws and sausages, one should not see how laws and sausages are made.

/paraphrased from Otto Von Bismarck.

146 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:15:10pm

re: #143 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I argued that the CBO was non-partisan during the Bush years. It would be disingenuous for me to say that now it is part of an “Obama Deception”.

In the minds of wingnuts this is all part of the same secret plot to destroy America. Bush and the CBO would have to be part of the conspiracy.

147 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:15:12pm

re: #127 windsagio

I’d say ‘good the country needs more snowpack’, but I’m not sure that’d be a comfort for you >>

It’s really good for everyone. I don’t mind this weather, especially considering I don’t have to be out in it. And yes, the water is good for everyone. You can’t tell in the picture, but behind that red Pathfinder is a blue Windstar, backed half over the drop off at the edge of the driveway. One of the young’uns tried to take the Windstar to the store this morning, and got fruggled trying to turn it around in the driveway.

We need to call AAA this weekend to pull it back up. Thanks goodness we stopped the kid from continuing to try to get it back up on the driveway, they would have roll it down the side of the hill.

148 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:15:23pm

re: #135 windsagio

heh, are you saying that would be a good thing or a bad thing?

A lot of EU countries depend on the US for military support, from NATO treaties. As well as Japan, because of WW2 terms of surrender. And Canada of course.

149 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:15:56pm

re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist

Especially in light of the poll I posted above.

In addition, focusing on just doctors, and not also polling nurses, techs, and the other primary health care delivery people, strikes me as wrong. Doctors are very important to health care. So are nurses.

The few polls i have seen of nurses support reform, mostly at a higher rate than even the doctors I cited above, of whom only 9% support no action.

150 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:15:58pm

re: #133 wozzablog

We lose a thousand dollars per job, but we make it up in volume?

151 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:16:00pm

re: #143 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I argued that the CBO was non-partisan during the Bush years. It would be disingenuous for me to say that now it is part of an “Obama Deception”.

Bless you for resisting disingenuity!

(Love you, dude.)

152 filetandrelease  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:16:02pm

re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist

I must agree with Dr. Cordell. I think that if the AMA had gone the other way on this issue, we would see a different breakdown of who in this room considers them an authoritative organization, and above reproach.

That is probably true, and it didn’t happen.

153 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:16:41pm

re: #148 Alouette

Who are we protecting Canada from, militarily?

154 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:16:48pm

re: #148 Alouette

A lot of EU countries depend on the US for military support, from NATO treaties. As well as Japan, because of WW2 terms of surrender. And Canada of course.

This is all true. But it’s a bit of a stretch to say that we can’t accomplish these goals with any reduction in defense spending.

155 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:17:22pm

re: #148 Alouette

>>

I know how its happening, but I’m not sure your point as per the discussion.

Are you saying that those countries should start pulling their own weight, or that it justifies the increased US spending, or …?

156 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:17:23pm

re: #132 Stanley Sea

Beautiful!

Yes it is… unless the power goes out up here… that’s a bitch, and it’s 18 degrees (f) outside right now… it can get chilly in here.

157 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:17:55pm

re: #151 SanFranciscoZionist

I was infuriated when the Dem’s forced Bush the Elders hand to go back on his no new taxes pledge and then attacked him for going back on his word.

I couldn’t handle that town.

158 Soap_Man  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:18:49pm

re: #142 Soap_Man

Remember when the doctors were the sages who deserved our complete respect? All the “Don’t let the government interfere with doctors” and such?

How things have changed eh?

“You have to listen to the doctors!! The AMA doesn’t represent them all!! No wait, doctors are crooks!!! Just look at the memo!!! Don’t listen to doctors!!! They suck!!!”

“All government-run healthcare is awful!!! Except medicare, which is awesome!!! How dare those dastardly Dems want to cut Medicare!!! Government run healthcare is awesome!!! No, wait… It sucks!! Yeah, that’s it!!! (wait, it does suck, right? I forgot which talking point we were on)”

I’m so sick of this hypocritical shit.

159 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:18:49pm

re: #123 Walter L. Newton

That someone standing out there wearing a top hat by the car?

160 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:19:00pm

re: #146 Killgore Trout

Along with local news papers from 1960’s Hawai.

161 swamprat  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:19:06pm

re: #156 Walter L. Newton

Yes it is… unless the power goes out up here… that’s a bitch, and it’s 18 degrees (f) outside right now… it can get chilly in here.


Why pellet stoves aren’t always the best option.

162 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:19:29pm

re: #158 Soap_Man

ding ding ding brother

163 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:22:05pm

We heard anything else about Hannity from last night?

164 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:22:09pm

re: #159 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That someone standing out there wearing a top hat by the car?

Yes… that’s a 18 year old friend of the family, of the step-critters, he stays here 2-3 night a week. A lot of the kids around here like to wear funny hats. He’s the one who put the Windstar off the edge of the driveway this morning. That’s his Pathfinder.

165 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:22:15pm

re: #156 Walter L. Newton

Yes it is… unless the power goes out up here… that’s a bitch, and it’s 18 degrees (f) outside right now… it can get chilly in here.

You need those pellets, stat.

166 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:24:14pm

re: #161 swamprat

Why pellet stoves aren’t always the best option.

For sure… but they do save money otherwise. This is a big, older mountain house (3500 sq ft), and we have all independent utilities up here, so, we don’t have the advantage of the prices from the big utility companies. The pellet stoves do save on gas and electricity.

167 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:24:34pm

re: #163 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

We heard anything else about Hannity from last night?

Frum picked it up. All goes back to Schussel - except - there’s a 2007 Kos diary describing the same thing. See Sullivan’s blog - he linked I think.

168 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:24:39pm

re: #150 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Kind of.

If Labour and materials are a fixed cost sitting around with nothing to do - it’s better to have them on a job clawing some of that money back even if it’s just their own costs.

169 blueraven  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:25:52pm

re: #119 Soap_Man

This could be a major FAIL by Politico.

If they cant verify, will they issue an apology? Will this stop Fox news from running with the story? //

170 swamprat  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:26:17pm

re: #166 Walter L. Newton

Have gas and wood in mine. Someone pointed out that pellet stoves don’t work without electricity….hadn’t occurred to me.

171 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:26:48pm

re: #169 blueraven

didn’t stop them running the Obama upskirt story.

172 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:27:00pm

Speaking of health reform:

Condom requirement for porn film actors to be voted on in California

The six-member California Division of Occupational Safety and Health standards board appears likely to create an advisory committee to report back on whether the law should be changed and how it could be accomplished.

In related news, the California Division of Occupational Safety and Health has been swamped with applications for enforcement officers over the past few days.

173 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:27:41pm

RE: The CBO score, from a tweet:

@GOPWhip Cantor, @reppaulryan & @RepDaveCamp to have press conf at 3:30 on #hcr costs, and REAL CBO costs. 3:30, H-321. #tcot #gop #hc

Cantor & Paul Ryan to have press conference on the “real CBO costs” in about 3 minutes.

174 Soap_Man  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:27:59pm

All right. I’ve seriously blown a fuse here. I’ll talk to all you folks later.

175 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:28:59pm

re: #173 Stanley Sea

They’re risking poisoning the CBO analysis in order to defeat this bill. That is not good long-term planning.

176 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:29:30pm

re: #174 Soap_Man

From what?

177 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:29:45pm

re: #170 swamprat

Have gas and wood in mine. Someone pointed out that pellet stoves don’t work without electricity…hadn’t occurred to me.

We can’t do wood anymore, since the upstairs pellet stove is a fireplace insert. The downstairs ones in the critter-kids area is a stand alone.

Yes, if the electric goes out, it’s a little problem, but not as much as a problem if we were to try to heat this place on gas. We have a gas furnace, but at this time of the year, we would spend 350 a month if we ran it. Pellets run about 2.50 a day/night.

178 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:29:49pm

re: #175 Obdicut

At risk of sounding partisan (heh), its been their official political position to sell out the longterm for the shortterm for decades now.

179 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:30:03pm

Seems like a double standard. The GOP is using this alleged Democratic memo as a basis for an attack when the memo indicates, “we increase reimbursement levels to primary care physicians for Medicaid patients.”

This is odd because the argument from the right wing has been that HCR would place a financial hardship upon physicians who they claim would go John Galt with its passage.

So they will take what essentially could be seen as a concession to free-market physicians and use it as a reverse populist propaganda tool in order to claim that they now “bought” the physicians or in today’s case, the AMA. Seems a bit like Alinsky tactics in play.

180 blueraven  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:30:35pm

re: #175 Obdicut

They’re risking poisoning the CBO analysis in order to defeat this bill. That is not good long-term planning.

collateral damage.

181 Soap_Man  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:31:29pm

re: #176 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

From what?

re: #124 Soap_Man

The CBO is the non-partisan score keeper for the senate. Except when they disagree with the platform. Then they are just hacks.

re: #158 Soap_Man

“You have to listen to the doctors!! The AMA doesn’t represent them all!! No wait, doctors are crooks!!! Just look at the memo!!! Don’t listen to doctors!!! They suck!!!”

“All government-run healthcare is awful!!! Except medicare, which is awesome!!! How dare those dastardly Dems want to cut Medicare!!! Government run healthcare is awesome!!! No, wait… It sucks!! Yeah, that’s it!!! (wait, it does suck, right? I forgot which talking point we were on)”

I’m so sick of this hypocritical shit.

Among other things. Okay, now I’m leaving. :)

182 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:32:01pm

re: #179 Gus 802

The number of mutually exclusive positions the GOP is adopting in their offense against HCR is mounting. Soap Man did a great spin through them above, but they seem to be adding up every damn hour.

183 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:33:20pm

re: #182 Obdicut

The number of mutually exclusive positions the GOP is adopting in their offense against HCR is mounting. Soap Man did a great spin through them above, but they seem to be adding up every damn hour.

I wouldn’t expect less. If they are against it, then they should fight as hard as possible.

184 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:33:46pm

re: #183 Walter L. Newton

To the point of contradicting themselves? I dunno about that one, man :P

185 swamprat  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:33:58pm

re: #177 Walter L. Newton

Interesting. I know some somebody will come up with a chipper/ pellet maker, or a low cost chip-stove, eventually.

186 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:34:46pm

re: #183 Walter L. Newton

Against what? The point is they’re simultaneously against and for a lot of things right now.

187 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:35:06pm

Paul Ryan is talking. He just called HCR reform a Frankenstein.

188 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:35:10pm

re: #182 Obdicut

The number of mutually exclusive positions the GOP is adopting in their offense against HCR is mounting. Soap Man did a great spin through them above, but they seem to be adding up every damn hour.

Yes. Yesterday, it was the warning of “due to financial hardship, physicians will leave the country if this health care reform passes!” Today, it’s “physicians (the AMA, et al) were bought to pass health care reform!” So an alleged concession that mediates the former (i.e. financial hardship, John Galt, etc.) becomes a political weapon with the latter.

189 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:36:27pm

Cantor: CBO trickery. Govt. funding of abortion.

190 swamprat  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:36:27pm

re: #182 Obdicut

The number of mutually exclusive positions the GOP is adopting in their offense against HCR is mounting. Soap Man did a great spin through them above, but they seem to be adding up every damn hour.


Reminds me of the “Bush is a diabolical genius who is a complete moron”, claims from a while back.

Nothing changes.

191 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:36:55pm

re: #188 Gus 802

Screams ‘death spiral’, it does.

192 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:37:02pm

re: #183 Walter L. Newton

They are not against a majority of the policies contained though.

193 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:37:35pm

re: #190 swamprat

The extent to which tu quoque defenses are hauled out to defend the indefensible changes.

194 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:37:36pm

re: #191 windsagio

*death book spiral*

or

*death panel spiral*

??

195 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:37:49pm

re: #191 windsagio

Screams ‘death spiral’, it does.

Wheee!

196 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:37:53pm

Fiscal chicanery. (word?)

Camp - They are hiding the true cost. Ponzi scheme.

Doc fix is now a talking point.

197 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:37:55pm

re: #187 Stanley Sea

Paul Ryan is talking. He just called HCR reform a Frankenstein.

Called it what?

198 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:38:05pm

re: #192 wozzablog

They are not against a majority of the policies contained though.

What? I don’t understand what you mean.

199 webevintage  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:38:20pm

re: #119 Soap_Man

This could be a major FAIL by Politico.

A FAIL by Politico?
Color me shocked…shocked I say.

I have a feeling this will be just like the “poll” that said Doctors all over the country would stop practicing medicine if HCR passes.

200 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:38:54pm

re: #191 windsagio

Screams ‘death spiral’, it does.

It’s a feeble attempt at populism that goes counter to their alleged principles. Sort of how they were using the concessions to pharma against HCR while at the same time purporting to support the big pharma free-market.

201 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:39:00pm

re: #189 Stanley Sea

Have the GOP altered their own health insurance plans to exclude funding for abortions yet, or not?

202 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:39:11pm

re: #193 Obdicut

The extent to which tu quoque defenses are hauled out to defend the indefensible changes.

It don’t matter. No one is playing fair, no one is fighting fair, it’s the way the game is played. Or did you miss the last 100 years of history around here.

203 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:39:36pm

Talking about the memo hoax (?)

Cantor - hoax on the American people by the CBO.

They are talking about the doc fix now, yep, planned talking point since this a.m.

204 swamprat  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:40:13pm

re: #193 Obdicut
It is all shades of garbage to me;
FOX garbage
New York Times garbage
Beck garbage
It all smells bad.

205 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:40:34pm

re: #200 Gus 802

The private market could solve health care if we just lowered regulations on them but the Democrats are unduly influenced by the private market and thus we can’t trust them because they’re doing what the private industry people want.

Makes perfect sense.

They wanted the doctor fix but now it’s a terrible thing that the Demcrats might do that shows how terrible the Democrats are.

Sure, that’s great logic.

206 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:40:47pm

re: #194 wozzablog

Death Ship Spiral, imo.

(no that makes no sense)

re: #202 Walter L. Newton

‘it often does work that way’ is substantially different than ‘it should work that way’

207 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:40:59pm

re: #198 Walter L. Newton

Transportabillity, cross border sales, a national exchange…………

208 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:41:04pm

re: #202 Walter L. Newton

Yes, Walter, that’s a good example of a tu quoque argument.

209 swamprat  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:41:34pm

Well now we have a possibly fake memo. That’s new!


Wait. What?

210 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:41:37pm

re: #205 Obdicut

It does make a strong argument for the idea that their main goal is to make the Dems fail, rather than any budgetary principles.

211 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:41:50pm
“While the final product is certainly not what we would have devised, we strongly support the parts of this bill that are desperately needed by millions of Americans who are struggling to get or keep health insurance coverage,” Dr. Rohack said. “We will continue to work with Congress and the administration to solve important issues that cannot be addressed through the reconciliation process.”

You got a lotta nerve
To say you got a helping hand to lend
You just want to be on
The side that’s winning

212 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:42:52pm

WTF? Poisoning the water of the only steadfastly non-partisan group in DC?

Genius.

Choose you words carefully, Mr. Cantor. You may have to eat them another day.

214 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:43:56pm

re: #213 efuseakay

Is it real?

215 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:44:12pm

re: #213 efuseakay

I had to upding you for the sheer zaniness of relinking and supporting a ‘document’ that’s already been pulled.

Just a hint: There’s a good chance the GOP faked it, silly!

216 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:44:41pm

re: #213 efuseakay

An earlier post in this spot detailed what was purported by Republicans to be an internal Democratic memo regarding the upcoming health reform vote Sunday. Democratic leadership has challenged the authenticity of the memo. POLITICO has removed the memo and the details about it until we can absolutely verify the document’s origin.


;)

217 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:44:50pm

re: #215 windsagio

also: That’s why I don’t go through threads answering things as they come up, you never know what’s gonna be debunked, and I already have enough egg on my face.

218 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:44:57pm

re: #210 windsagio

It does make a strong argument for the idea that their main goal is to make the Dems fail, rather than any budgetary principles.

Well of course that’s what they want is for the Democrats to fail. There is nothing in this bill they like/want/support. You say that like it’s a mystery. This is not a bipartisan effort. The GOP don’t want anything to do with this.

I would think that you would expect as much from the Democrats if they wanted the GOP to fail on an issue(s).

Hell, if the Democrats could reign themselves in and get on the same page, this would have slide through a long time ago.

Agree with the GOP or not, at least they are all sticking together, instead of sticking it to each other.

That’s politics.

219 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:46:14pm

re: #213 efuseakay

This will be ignored.

It may not be real. Pay attention.

220 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:46:22pm

re: #218 Walter L. Newton

we’ve had this argument before :p

Aren’t congresspeople supposed to support their districts first, their party second? :p

anyways, its a retreat into cynicism. While it might be somewhat justified, its hardly helpful.

221 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:47:06pm

re: #213 efuseakay

This will be ignored.

Did you even read the link? It’s been pulled.

222 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:48:14pm

re: #220 windsagio

we’ve had this argument before :p

Aren’t congresspeople supposed to support their districts first, their party second? :p

anyways, its a retreat into cynicism. While it might be somewhat justified, its hardly helpful.

Of course they are suppose to support their districts first. I agree 100 percent with you. Now, what planet are you from?

223 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:48:52pm

re: #222 Walter L. Newton

The one where I think we can have a better path than the one the GOP charted in the ’90s :p

224 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:50:40pm

re: #218 Walter L. Newton

Well of course that’s what they want is for the Democrats to fail. There is nothing in this bill they like/want/support. You say that like it’s a mystery. This is not a bipartisan effort. The GOP don’t want anything to do with this.

I would think that you would expect as much from the Democrats if they wanted the GOP to fail on an issue(s).

Hell, if the Democrats could reign themselves in and get on the same page, this would have slide through a long time ago.

Agree with the GOP or not, at least they are all sticking together, instead of sticking it to each other.

That’s politics.

No, it’s not politics. It’s the perversion of the American political system. Our entire form of government is based on the concept that political parties would not have enough clout over their members to impose a strict party-line “no” vote on legislation. It’s the reason why the filibuster wasn’t a major issue in U.S. politics until the late 20th century. It’s the reason why we don’t have an electoral system similar to that of the British that allows parties to nominate slates of candidates for office.

Because no political party was ever expected to have enough power to prevent every single member of their party from acting in lockstep. The founding fathers intended there to be debate, cooperation and compromise when legislation was crafted. Not parliamentary gridlock.

225 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:50:49pm

re: #223 windsagio

RINO

/

226 Bob Levin  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:50:51pm

I’ve been against this bill. But if the AMA is for it, and the doctors are thinking about it’s impact of their professional futures and their families, and they’re okay with it, I’ll be okay with it too.

Up top someone said that only 20% of doctors are members of the AMA. If the bill is bad, we will quickly see some other doctors mobilize to contradict the AMA.

If there is silence from them, then there will be silence from me.

And if the bill turns out to be a disaster, the doctors have only themselves to blame.

227 blueraven  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:51:39pm

re: #222 Walter L. Newton

Of course they are suppose to support their districts first. I agree 100 percent with you. Now, what planet are you from?

Maybe the same planet that some of the democrats are from. Those that are voting their constituency.

228 lostlakehiker  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:52:31pm

Republicans at this point can only vote no and hope for the bill to fail now and be rewritten so as to remove some of the worst provisions, or, if it passes, everyone will regret it and we can then remind you that we told you so.

Bad provisions: by mandating coverage for hugely expensive services that hardly anyone will want and that no one deserves to get free, such as sex change operations, aroma therapy (?), chiropractic “care” etc., the bill drives up costs.

Bad provisions: by pretending to cover costs by reducing payments to doctors for medicare, the bill ensures that one of two things will happen:

payments will indeed be cut, doctors will drop medicare patients, and the health coverage seniors get will be an empty promise because they won’t be able to find a doctor to take them, or,

payments will not be cut after all. The promise of care won’t be exactly empty. But the promise that the deal won’t be a budget wrecker will be even more empty than it already is.

See Thomas Sowell’s latest essay for details. Talking points versus reality.

229 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:52:46pm

re: #224 drcordell


Because no political party was ever expected to have enough power to prevent every single member of their party from acting in lockstep.

I think you meant that no political party was expected to have the power to force every member to act in lockstep.

Anyway, Washington thought that parties would have that much power, which is why he hated them. Probably his smartest political position.

re: #226 Bob Levin

I linked a poll of doctors above on the issue of health care reform, if you want more info.

230 swamprat  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:53:08pm

I’ve got a memo that Obama eats live kittens for breakfast. Here’s another that Newt Gingrich is funding an Afghan warlord. Here’s another from some guy in Nigeria….This looks interesting…I’ll get back with you guys later. I’ve got to go to the bank! BRB

231 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:53:35pm

re: #228 lostlakehiker

Republicans at this point can only vote no and hope for the bill to fail now and be rewritten so as to remove some of the worst provisions, or, if it passes, everyone will regret it and we can then remind you that we told you so.

Bad provisions: by mandating coverage for hugely expensive services that hardly anyone will want and that no one deserves to get free, such as sex change operations, aroma therapy (?), chiropractic “care” etc., the bill drives up costs.

Bad provisions: by pretending to cover costs by reducing payments to doctors for medicare, the bill ensures that one of two things will happen:

payments will indeed be cut, doctors will drop medicare patients, and the health coverage seniors get will be an empty promise because they won’t be able to find a doctor to take them, or,

payments will not be cut after all. The promise of care won’t be exactly empty. But the promise that the deal won’t be a budget wrecker will be even more empty than it already is.

See Thomas Sowell’s latest essay for details. Talking points versus reality.

I fail to see how one can equate sex change operations to aroma therapy.

232 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:54:05pm

re: #231 Gus 802

Ever smelled something so bad it made your balls shrink?

233 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:54:20pm

re: #228 lostlakehiker

Ah yes, Townhall, that bastion of reason and Pat Buchanan and Michelle Malkin articles.

234 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:54:40pm

re: #228 lostlakehiker

There’s mandated coverage for sex change operations and aromatherapy? For real? Linkage, por favor? (This is new to me.)

235 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:55:40pm

re: #234 SanFranciscoZionist

There’s mandated coverage for sex change operations and aromatherapy? For real? Linkage, por favor? (This is new to me.)

It’s Rule 63 for guys.
;)

236 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:55:52pm

re: #234 SanFranciscoZionist

There’s mandated coverage for sex change operations and aromatherapy? For real? Linkage, por favor? (This is new to me.)

Good point. Not only was it comparing it to aromatherapy it’s “mandated.” Too funny.

237 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:56:08pm

re: #231 Gus 802

I fail to see how one can equate sex change operations to aroma therapy.

You can’t. Under the proposed legislation, you can have one or the other, but not both.

Er…wait, that doesn’t sound right.

238 lostlakehiker  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:56:33pm

re: #231 Gus 802

I fail to see how one can equate sex change operations to aroma therapy.

Both not the proper function of the State to pay for with taxpayer money.

239 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:57:16pm

re: #236 Gus 802

Dammit, I hate candles! What’ll they foist off on us next?

240 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:57:22pm

re: #237 subsailor68

heh!

241 lostlakehiker  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:57:33pm

No, I’m not claiming that aroma therapy as such is covered. Just that so many silly things are, it might as well be.

242 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:57:43pm

re: #224 drcordell

No, it’s not politics. It’s the perversion of the American political system. Our entire form of government is based on the concept that political parties would not have enough clout over their members to impose a strict party-line “no” vote on legislation. It’s the reason why the filibuster wasn’t a major issue in U.S. politics until the late 20th century. It’s the reason why we don’t have an electoral system similar to that of the British that allows parties to nominate slates of candidates for office.

Because no political party was ever expected to have enough power to prevent every single member of their party from acting in lockstep. The founding fathers intended there to be debate, cooperation and compromise when legislation was crafted. Not parliamentary gridlock.

Get real. Welcome to 2010.

243 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:58:30pm

re: #242 Walter L. Newton

I really really really hate the argument that everything is already fucked to hell, so why bother trying?

Did I say that I hate that argument?

244 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:58:34pm

re: #241 lostlakehiker


Now that you’ve said the bill contains ‘many silly things’ I’ll definitely change my support for it. Who could argue with that?

245 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:58:50pm

re: #238 lostlakehiker

Anti-war tax payers still funded the war.

you can’t choose where your tax dollars go.

Or move to a country with no SCHIP, COBRA, Medicare or Medicaid……….

246 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:59:00pm

re: #238 lostlakehiker

Both not the proper function of the State to pay for with taxpayer money.

Uh, it’s in the DSM IV and has an actual diagnostic process involving physicians and therapists. It’s accepted in the medical field and so on.

247 lostlakehiker  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:59:20pm

re: #244 Obdicut

Now that you’ve said the bill contains ‘many silly things’ I’ll definitely change my support for it. Who could argue with that?

You might read the Sowell essay. He makes a better case than I can on my own.

248 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:59:28pm

re: #242 Walter L. Newton

Get real. Welcome to 2010.

No, welcome to the GOP minority. It has happened every time they have lost power since the 1990’s. They completely shut down the government and prevent anything at all from being accomplished. All simply in the name of spite and thirst for political power. Disgusting.

249 swamprat  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 12:59:57pm

re: #238 lostlakehiker

Both not the proper function of the State to pay for with taxpayer money.

Not necessarily. There are defects with might rightfully need to be addressed. I’m not talking about the sexually unsure or “confused”. I mean real medical conditions.

250 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:00:24pm

re: #243 windsagio

I really really really hate the argument that everything is already fucked to hell, so why bother trying?

Did I say that I hate that argument?

than I’ll say to you… get real.

251 swamprat  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:00:34pm

re: #239 windsagio

Dammit, I hate candles! What’ll they foist off on us next?


Frosting and cake.

252 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:01:00pm

Health care reform must be stopped!!11!!! It mandates transsexulaism and incense!!111!

/Eleventy!

/

253 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:01:08pm

re: #251 swamprat

Frosting and cake.

What about pie?

254 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:01:22pm

re: #246 Gus 802

It’s also amazingly rare.

re: #247 lostlakehiker

I’m not in the mood to give Townhall any traffic, thanks. I sincerely doubt the essay contains anything I haven’t heard before in the way of talking points, either.

Feel free to highlight anything you think is especially telling.

255 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:01:29pm

re: #253 Mad Al-Jaffee

That’ll get the president onboard >>

256 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:01:54pm

re: #254 Obdicut

It’s also amazingly rare.

re: #247 lostlakehiker

I’m not in the mood to give Townhall any traffic, thanks. I sincerely doubt the essay contains anything I haven’t heard before in the way of talking points, either.

Feel free to highlight anything you think is especially telling.

Exactly. Sheesh, sounds like something from the 700 Club.

257 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:01:55pm

re: #241 lostlakehiker

No, I’m not claiming that aroma therapy as such is covered. Just that so many silly things are, it might as well be.

OK, give me some actual examples of what is actually mandated that is silly and will drive up costs.

258 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:02:07pm

re: #252 Gus 802

Health care reform must be stopped!!11!!! It mandates transsexualism and incense!!111!

/Eleventy!

/

If it has ear candling, I’m even more in.

259 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:02:07pm

Hey, I thought sex change was already covered under existing law. Isn’t it known as “divorce”?

260 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:02:46pm

re: #85 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Synagogue Bomb Suspects: The Feds Put Us Up to It!

Hey, they could have said “The Juice made us do it!”

261 blueraven  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:03:30pm

re: #228 lostlakehiker

Mandatory sex change!
Waaaa! I like being a girl, I don’t want to be a boy!

262 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:03:32pm

re: #252 Gus 802

Health care reform must be stopped!!11!!! It mandates transsexulaism and incense!!111!

/Eleventy!

/

I’m OK with both of those things, personally.

263 swamprat  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:03:48pm

re: #253 Mad Al-Jaffee

I like pie.

264 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:03:49pm

re: #234 SanFranciscoZionist

There’s mandated coverage for sex change operations and aromatherapy? For real? Linkage, por favor? (This is new to me.)

You can be pretty much assured that coverage for alternative treatments, like aromatherapy, and even quack medicine, will be provided in the future. Because people will demand such coverage. And once the government is in charge of health care, decisions about what ought to be covered will be based on political reasoning, rather than medical reasoning. Politicians will be only too happy to extend coverage to include herbal remedies, color therapy and homeopathic “medicine” in exchange for votes. Homeopathy, quite possibly the most moronic claim ever put forward, has already enjoyed support in the Senate. Look for claims that vaccinations are dangerous and shouldn’t be covered, demands for colloidal silver treatments and a host of other quackery to rapidly gain support from politicians who are utterly ignorant of medicine, yet eager for political gain.

265 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:03:51pm

re: #249 swamprat

Yeah. Intersexed people don’t exactly have the easiest of lives.

re: #259 subsailor68

266 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:04:30pm

re: #248 drcordell

No, welcome to the GOP minority. It has happened every time they have lost power since the 1990’s. They completely shut down the government and prevent anything at all from being accomplished. All simply in the name of spite and thirst for political power. Disgusting.

Then I suggest that the Democratic Party will have to go at it alone. I suspect that the Democratic Party will have to rally together and get something done. I suspect that the Democratic Party will be thanked in the future for solving the health care problems in this country.

Considering how close the Democratic Party is to winning this battle, you seems really bothered.

267 SteveC  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:05:17pm

re: #230 swamprat

I’ve got a memo that Obama eats live kittens for breakfast.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. This will be vigorously investigated and any punishment deemed necessary will be quickly forthcoming.

You may have the evening off.


(Signed)

Muffin
Lord High Commander
Catfleet Command

268 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:05:37pm

re: #265 Obdicut

Yeah. Intersexed people don’t exactly have the easiest of lives.

re: #259 subsailor68


[Video]

Oops, says on the screen to register, and when you click on the video it doesn’t play. Hmm…

269 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:06:10pm

re: #253 Mad Al-Jaffee

mmmmm pie……..

270 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:06:18pm

re: #266 Walter L. Newton

Then I suggest that the Democratic Party will have to go at it alone. I suspect that the Democratic Party will have to rally together and get something done. I suspect that the Democratic Party will be thanked in the future for solving the health care problems in this country.

Considering how close the Democratic Party is to winning this battle, you seems really bothered.


I’m bothered because I could give a flying fuck about a Democratic “political victory.” I wanted the best possible solution to the healthcare crisis in this country. And the bill that will probably pass is significantly worse than it would have been if the Democrats had a legitimate negotiating partner in the GOP.

271 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:06:50pm

re: #264 SixDegrees

Homeopathic medicine? First they want marriage rights, now they want special medical care?!

/

272 SteveC  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:06:57pm

re: #252 Gus 802

Health care reform must be stopped!!11!!! It mandates transsexulaism and incense!!111!

/Eleventy!

/

Incense and peppermint! Over my dead body!

273 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:06:57pm

fore: #264 SixDegrees

You can be pretty much assured that coverage for alternative treatments, like aromatherapy, and even quack medicine, will be provided in the future. Because people will demand such coverage. And once the government is in charge of health care, decisions about what ought to be covered will be based on political reasoning, rather than medical reasoning. Politicians will be only too happy to extend coverage to include herbal remedies, color therapy and homeopathic “medicine” in exchange for votes. Homeopathy, quite possibly the most moronic claim ever put forward, has already enjoyed support in the Senate. Look for claims that vaccinations are dangerous and shouldn’t be covered, demands for colloidal silver treatments and a host of other quackery to rapidly gain support from politicians who are utterly ignorant of medicine, yet eager for political gain.

How is government going to be ‘in charge’ of health care? I’m pretty damn sure that Medicaid is not going to be covering aromatherapy in the near future, they won’t even cover acupuncture.

274 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:08:47pm

re: #270 drcordell

I’m bothered because I could give a flying fuck about a Democratic “political victory.” I wanted the best possible solution to the healthcare crisis in this country. And the bill that will probably pass is significantly worse than it would have been if the Democrats had a legitimate negotiating partner in the GOP.

You mean the Democrats are not capable enough to come up with comprehensive enough health care reform. You don’t have much faith in the Democratic Party. So close to a victory, yet so upset about it. Strange.

275 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:08:50pm

re: #273 SanFranciscoZionist

fo

How is government going to be ‘in charge’ of health care? I’m pretty damn sure that Medicaid is not going to be covering aromatherapy in the near future, they won’t even cover acupuncture.

Naw it is. I got a push-pull today from the Family Research Council, they clearly stated my rep would be voting for Government Run Health Care.

276 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:08:58pm

re: #266 Walter L. Newton

Winning?

It’s been a needlessly bloody battle thats produced a bastard child piece of legislation which has been watered down significantly to satisfy representatives with massive conflict of interest campaign contributions.


It’s better than outright defeat - but only in the way of a floodlight failure when you are trailing 0-6.

277 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:09:07pm

re: #273 SanFranciscoZionist

fo

How is government going to be ‘in charge’ of health care? I’m pretty damn sure that Medicaid is not going to be covering aromatherapy in the near future, they won’t even cover acupuncture.

The government is already “in charge” of health care. They are already spend roughly 1 of every 2 healthcare dollars spent in the entire nation.

278 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:09:19pm

re: #270 drcordell

I’ll take a flying fuck, if you’re giving >>

279 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:10:14pm

Doesn’t the AMA also endorse taxes on sugary water?

(Well, do they? I don’t know.)

But I bet they do.

Can’t you see, folks? Do I have to spell it out for you? Draw ovals on a chalkboard? Show you pictures of Nazi-Commie (same difference!) flags? Get on my knees and weep?

If you support the AMA, you are a prog flogging dogs and kitteh-cats. And frogs. You are unwittingly endorsing the end of our precious, God-given way of life. And you probably support social justice, too, like this evil bastard.

I am full of fear and trembling for our great nation.

280 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:10:39pm

re: #276 wozzablog

Winning?

It’s been a needlessly bloody battle thats produced a bastard child piece of legislation which has been watered down significantly to satisfy representatives with massive conflict of interest campaign contributions.

It’s better than outright defeat - but only in the way of a floodlight failure when you are trailing 0-6.

Eating your own.

281 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:10:51pm

re: #276 wozzablog

I take hope in the idea that its getting the process started. We can improve the law over time, but for that it was absolutely necessary to get the Gov’t involved.

282 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:11:24pm

re: #273 SanFranciscoZionist

fo

How is government going to be ‘in charge’ of health care? I’m pretty damn sure that Medicaid is not going to be covering aromatherapy in the near future, they won’t even cover acupuncture.

Hi SFZ. I assume what concerns some folks is the concept of the legislation allowing government to mandate that insurance companies provide certain coverage (such as pre-existing, lifetime limits, preventive care, etc.). I think the point was that once government begins to mandate, it is susceptible to lobbying, political pressure, and so forth. (Just my take on some of the comments.)

283 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:11:59pm

re: #280 Walter L. Newton

man, you really do think of things in terms of party before all other considerations, don’tcha?

284 Bob Levin  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:12:06pm

re: #226 Bob Levin

I linked a poll of doctors above on the issue of health care reform, if you want more info.

No need, but thanks for the offer. I figure that the people most affected, the doctors, have the best motivation to actually wade through the bill with a team of lawyers. The doctors are the ones who have to live their lives with this. They are going to have to hire specialists to deal with this bureaucracy, just like all insurance. If they feel they can keep their practice, if they feel that there will be a steady flow of people still wanting to be doctors—then let the show begin.

285 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:12:33pm

re: #273 SanFranciscoZionist

fo

How is government going to be ‘in charge’ of health care? I’m pretty damn sure that Medicaid is not going to be covering aromatherapy in the near future, they won’t even cover acupuncture.

Once everyone is under the same umbrella, you’ll see the emergence of political interest groups pushing for coverage of their own favorite quackery through the political system. Politicians being what they are will be only too happy to grant such coverage through mandates.

The legislature of New York State is considering a bill that would bann the use of salt by all restaurants in the state. It seems more than obvious that politicians will attempt to exert influence over health care in the most ludicrous and unsupported ways simply because it’s already happening.

286 cliffster  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:12:45pm

Still all buddy-buddy, are we?

287 alexknyc  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:12:46pm

re: #20 drcordell

My doctor was completely for it, as well as all three of my friends who are currently med students. From all the conversations I have had, there isn’t a single group in the U.S. that hates insurance companies more than doctors. Half of their day is spent dealing with piles upon piles of paperwork and legal hoops they must deal with because of insurance issues.

Do you think that will get better or worse with government-run health care?

288 SteveC  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:12:49pm

re: #271 Mad Al-Jaffee

Homeopathic medicine? First they want marriage rights, now they want special medical care?!

/

I’ve heard Homeopathic Medicine referred to as “Quackademic Medicine.”

Homeopathy (also spelled homoeopathy or homœopathy) is a form of alternative medicine, first proposed by German physician Samuel Hahnemann in 1796, that attempts to treat patients with heavily diluted preparations which are claimed to cause effects similar to the symptoms presented…Claims of homeopathy’s efficacy beyond the placebo effect are unsupported by the collective weight of scientific and clinical evidence.

289 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:13:10pm

re: #286 cliffster

Still all buddy-buddy, are we?

Feck off!

290 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:13:17pm

re: #286 cliffster

Workin’ on it!

291 SteveC  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:13:50pm

re: #278 windsagio

I’ll take a flying fuck, if you’re giving >>

Mile High Club!

292 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:13:51pm

re: #286 cliffster

Still all buddy-buddy, are we?

People stick together when the sky is falling.

293 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:14:21pm

re: #274 Walter L. Newton

You mean the Democrats are not capable enough to come up with comprehensive enough health care reform. You don’t have much faith in the Democratic Party. So close to a victory, yet so upset about it. Strange.

What part of this are you failing to understand? I think that if the Republicans actually constructively participated in the health care debate some of their ideas could have been implemented to the benefit of the American people. I don’t think the Democrats have the perfect solution. And I think that we are worse off because there was no attempt at all made by the Republicans to craft this legislation into a better bill.

In fact, they have committed to ensuring that the bill is WORSE by making the repeal of terrible provisions such as the “cornhusker kickback” more difficult. All in the name of complete cynicism. Not in the interest of helping Americans. Not in the interest of fixing health care. In the interest of hoping that the Democrats fail by passing a bill that makes Americans worse off.

294 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:14:31pm

re: #287 alexknyc

Do you think that will get better or worse with government-run health care?

It will be much much better. With Government Run Health Care. Just like in Canada.

295 Bob Levin  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:14:42pm

re: #284 Bob Levin

Whoops, that was a reply to Obdicut.

296 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:14:43pm

re: #284 Bob Levin

They are going to have to hire specialists to deal with this bureaucracy, just like all insurance.

Hi Bob! They already do. A friend of ours is employed full time by a pair of doctors to do nothing but handle claims, reimbursements, follow-up calls on denials, etc. She already deals with Medicare, Medicaid, the VA, and private insurance companies.

297 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:15:07pm

re: #288 SteveC

I’ve heard Homeopathic Medicine referred to as “Quackademic Medicine.”

I’ve been undermining Rush Limbaugh by educating his listeners about homeopathic remedies, which he endorses.

298 prairiefire  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:15:24pm

re: #294 Jeff In Ohio

Hey, did you see this tribute to Alex Chilton on the floor of the House yesterday?

299 swamprat  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:15:41pm

re: #266 Walter L. Newton

Then I suggest that the Democratic Party will have to go at it alone. I suspect that the Democratic Party will have to rally together and get something done. I suspect that the Democratic Party will be thanked in the future for solving the health care problems in this country.

Considering how close the Democratic Party is to winning this battle, you seems really bothered.

If healthcare is such a Bad Idea, It should really put the republicans on the top, once it flounders. I remember when the republicans put forth the “Contract For America”. It was simple, concise and straightforward. And it got them elected. Now they are just anti-Obama. I don’t see it as good strategery. Even if this presidency falls flat on its face, the republicans have put themselves in a bad light.

300 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:15:42pm

re: #284 Bob Levin

They are going to have to hire specialists to deal with this bureaucracy, just like all insurance.

Ass.

Doctors already hire specialists who do nothing but wade through the garbage rules and regulations imposed by for-profit health-insurance companies designed to deny care to their patients. That is when they’re not dealing directly with the hired monkeys on the other end of the line who know nothing about medicine and just deny, deny, deny care all day long.

301 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:15:43pm

re: #283 windsagio

man, you really do think of things in terms of party before all other considerations, don’tcha?

General idea is party trumps person. I’m not a Republican, I’m not a Democrat. I’m registered unaffiliated. I want this bill to pass.

302 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:15:44pm

re: #287 alexknyc

Do you think that will get better or worse with government-run health care?

We already have government run health care. This bill simply helps us acknowledge this reality and run it more efficiently, saving everyone money. So short answer, yes.

303 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:16:07pm

re: #298 prairiefire

Hey, did you see this tribute to Alex Chilton on the floor of the House yesterday?

[Video]

I did see that. Fresh Air ran a pair of interviews today also. Very nice.

304 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:16:24pm

BBL

305 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:16:28pm

re: #300 Cato the Elder

Ass.

Doctors already hire specialists who do nothing but wade through the garbage rules and regulations imposed by for-profit health-insurance companies designed to deny care to their patients. That is when they’re not dealing directly with the hired monkeys on the other end of the line who know nothing about medicine and just deny, deny, deny care all day long.

+1000

306 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:16:34pm

re: #288 SteveC

When it was originally proposed, homeopathy was accepted because A) no one was doing epidemiological studies that would have proven it was ineffective, and B) unlike many of the treatments and procedures offered at the time, it has the benefit of not actually killing you or making you sicker than you already were, in most cases.

Nowadays, it’s recognized in medical circles as belonging right next to ear candling.

307 blueraven  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:16:44pm

re: #285 SixDegrees

Once everyone is under the same umbrella, you’ll see the emergence of political interest groups pushing for coverage of their own favorite quackery through the political system. Politicians being what they are will be only too happy to grant such coverage through mandates.

The legislature of New York State is considering a bill that would bann the use of salt by all restaurants in the state. It seems more than obvious that politicians will attempt to exert influence over health care in the most ludicrous and unsupported ways simply because it’s already happening.

That is just dumb. You can not cook without salt. One person wants this. It will never happen.

308 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:16:48pm

re: #282 subsailor68

Hi SFZ. I assume what concerns some folks is the concept of the legislation allowing government to mandate that insurance companies provide certain coverage (such as pre-existing, lifetime limits, preventive care, etc.). I think the point was that once government begins to mandate, it is susceptible to lobbying, political pressure, and so forth. (Just my take on some of the comments.)

Fair enough, but there are solid reasons for all of those things.

309 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:17:10pm

re: #303 Jeff In Ohio

I did see that. Fresh Air ran a pair of interviews today also. Very nice.

You mean Fresh Air on National PublicSocialist Radio!!!!

/

310 SteveC  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:17:30pm

re: #297 wrenchwench

I’ve been undermining Rush Limbaugh by educating his listeners about homeopathic remedies, which he endorses.

Zicam! The miracle drug that can kill your sense of smell

311 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:17:36pm

re: #301 Walter L. Newton

I get the idea, I just think we should strive for better :p

312 Bob Levin  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:17:40pm

re: #296 subsailor68

I know. Every time I go to the doctor they are more clerical staff than medical staff.

313 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:17:41pm

re: #309 drcordell

You mean Fresh Air on National PublicSocialist Radio!!!

/

Yes, Just like in Canada.

314 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:18:24pm

re: #293 drcordell

What part of this are you failing to understand? I think that if the Republicans actually constructively participated in the health care debate some of their ideas could have been implemented to the benefit of the American people. I don’t think the Democrats have the perfect solution. And I think that we are worse off because there was no attempt at all made by the Republicans to craft this legislation into a better bill.

In fact, they have committed to ensuring that the bill is WORSE by making the repeal of terrible provisions such as the “cornhusker kickback” more difficult. All in the name of complete cynicism. Not in the interest of helping Americans. Not in the interest of fixing health care. In the interest of hoping that the Democrats fail by passing a bill that makes Americans worse off.

What part of “they didn’t want anything to do with it” don’t you understand. I’m sure the Democrats will make the best of it. I have faith in them.

315 darthstar  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:18:26pm

Howdy-do future beneficiaries of Health Care Reform! Only took me four hours to get here today…even with accidents blocking 280 and 880…looped around those highways and didn’t add a mile to my trip…always refreshing to know alternate routes are the same distance.

316 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:18:37pm

re: #313 Jeff In Ohio

Yes, Just like in Canada.

Where they have to wait in long lines to get their rationed time of socialist radio.

317 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:19:22pm

re: #314 Walter L. Newton

Is this the part where you play the role of somebody whose intentionally dense? :p

318 HoosierHoops  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:19:37pm

re: #315 darthstar

Howdy-do future beneficiaries of Health Care Reform! Only took me four hours to get here today…even with accidents blocking 280 and 880…looped around those highways and didn’t add a mile to my trip…always refreshing to know alternate routes are the same distance.

Sounds like Bay area traffic

319 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:19:41pm

re: #285 SixDegrees

Once everyone is under the same umbrella, you’ll see the emergence of political interest groups pushing for coverage of their own favorite quackery through the political system. Politicians being what they are will be only too happy to grant such coverage through mandates.

The legislature of New York State is considering a bill that would bann the use of salt by all restaurants in the state. It seems more than obvious that politicians will attempt to exert influence over health care in the most ludicrous and unsupported ways simply because it’s already happening.

What umbrella? I can see your point that this sort thing (salt and such) is always being fought over, but I don’t quite understand how the bill makes such mandates far more likely.

320 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:19:42pm

re: #315 darthstar

Howdy-do future beneficiaries of Health Care Reform! Only took me four hours to get here today…even with accidents blocking 280 and 880…looped around those highways and didn’t add a mile to my trip…always refreshing to know alternate routes are the same distance.

That’s because you attempted to travel on the inefficient socialist highway system. Next time, take the individualist route, and drive overland.

321 Bob Levin  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:20:03pm

re: #300 Cato the Elder

You’re a very sweet person. I can tell that. I said that I am fully aware of the medical bureaucracy in a doctor’s office. It will get bigger. That’s not a tragedy.

322 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:20:35pm

re: #308 SanFranciscoZionist

Fair enough, but there are solid reasons for all of those things.

For some, I agree. But, there is a cost associated with mandating additional procedures, etc. that must be covered. If the government mandates that all private insurers must cover procedure X, for all policies, the premiums for those policies must necessarily go up (as the only other options are to eat the increased costs or cease offering the coverage).

323 SteveC  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:20:54pm

re: #306 SixDegrees

When it was originally proposed, homeopathy was accepted because A) no one was doing epidemiological studies that would have proven it was ineffective, and B) unlike many of the treatments and procedures offered at the time, it has the benefit of not actually killing you or making you sicker than you already were, in most cases.

Nowadays, it’s recognized in medical circles as belonging right next to ear candling.

There’s a new book out named Genius on the Edge about Dr. William Halsted.

SteveC Want!

324 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:21:07pm
Seven years ago today, President Bush launched the Iraq war. In a televised address to the nation, Bush told the American people “at this hour American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm Iraq, to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger.”


Happy Anniversary/

325 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:21:46pm

re: #314 Walter L. Newton

What part of “they didn’t want anything to do with it” don’t you understand. I’m sure the Democrats will make the best of it. I have faith in them.

You can’t see the difference between principled opposition and cynicism? The Republicans are flat-out acknowledging in public that they are purposely trying to make the bill WORSE in order to hurt the Democrats politically. This doesn’t bother you?

326 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:22:22pm

re: #307 blueraven

That is just dumb. You can not cook without salt. One person wants this. It will never happen.

Far more than one person wants this. Assemblyman Ortiz, who authored the legislation, wouldn’t have gone to the trouble of crafting it unless it had the support of many of his constituents. And although I agree that it likely won’t pass, I bet it will get a lot more than Ortiz’ single vote if it comes to the floor.

See also legislation aimed at banning transfats, sodas and a variety of junk and processed foods across the country for other examples, some misguided, others less so, but all - politically - well intentioned.

327 SteveC  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:22:26pm

BBL OK?

OK!

328 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:22:34pm

re: #309 drcordell

You mean Fresh Air on National PublicSocialist Radio!!!

And the insidiously evil Terry Gross, whose polite and well-researched interviews are a mask for Satan’s coming rule on earth.

Oops. Wrong picture.

329 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:22:39pm

re: #311 windsagio

I get the idea, I just think we should strive for better :p

And so do I, really. But it’s evident that you are not going to that help from the GOP.

330 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:22:43pm

re: #325 drcordell

*color commentary*

In this post, Dr. Cordell gives Walter exactly what he wants. A good play on Walter’s part, Bob!

331 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:23:05pm

re: #329 Walter L. Newton

fair enough :P

332 darthstar  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:23:27pm

re: #320 Jeff In Ohio

249 miles door to door…any time I can average 60mph I’m happy. A mile a minute, that’s all I ask.

333 SteveC  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:23:45pm

re: #307 blueraven

That is just dumb. You can not cook without salt. One person wants this. It will never happen.

I’m on a low-sodium diet and I cook without salt all the time.

334 cliffster  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:24:28pm

re: #326 SixDegrees

Far more than one person wants this. Assemblyman Ortiz, who authored the legislation, wouldn’t have gone to the trouble of crafting it unless it had the support of many of his constituents. And although I agree that it likely won’t pass, I bet it will get a lot more than Ortiz’ single vote if it comes to the floor.

See also legislation aimed at banning transfats, sodas and a variety of junk and processed foods across the country for other examples, some misguided, others less so, but all - politically - well intentioned.

Yeah, that sort of nanny state stuff is all paranoia from fear-mongering wingnuts. Until it starts happening. Oops

335 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:25:17pm

re: #333 SteveC

I’m on a low-sodium diet and I cook without salt all the time.


Do you want to go around grabbing everyone else’s salt?

336 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:25:34pm

re: #319 SanFranciscoZionist

What umbrella? I can see your point that this sort thing (salt and such) is always being fought over, but I don’t quite understand how the bill makes such mandates far more likely.

It grants enormous control over health care and it’s costs to politicians. This is an easy concept, and it’s easy to see how it will lead to support for coverage of questionable remedies. Frankly, I expect the aforementioned homeopathy to be particularly attractive, given it’s wide popularity and low cost - a win-win from a politician’s perspective.

337 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:26:24pm

re: #334 cliffster

Yeah, that sort of nanny state stuff is all paranoia from fear-mongering wingnuts. Until it starts happening. Oops

It’s a quack resolution from a single nut in the assembly. Care for me to find you a list of all the wingnuttery that’s kicking around the state legislatures of the South? I can only imagine how many birther resolutions have been proposed.

338 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:26:24pm

re: #325 drcordell

You can’t see the difference between principled opposition and cynicism? The Republicans are flat-out acknowledging in public that they are purposely trying to make the bill WORSE in order to hurt the Democrats politically. This doesn’t bother you?

I don’t see YOUR difference ” between principled opposition and cynicism.” It’s disingenuous of you to think that there is any difference. It’s politics as usual.

339 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:26:41pm

re: #262 SanFranciscoZionist

Weirdly enough, I’m in favor of covering medical procedures that work. If having someone smell a $5 candle means they don’t have to spend $100 a month on medicine, I’m fine with that. If it works. Efficacious medicine can sometimes look odd— I don’t care. If it works, use it. If its watching five episodes of Buffy, I don’t care, if it works.

340 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:27:01pm

re: #268 subsailor68

Sorry. It was just a rimshot.

341 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:28:03pm

re: #325 drcordell

You can’t see the difference between principled opposition and cynicism? The Republicans are flat-out acknowledging in public that they are purposely trying to make the bill WORSE in order to hurt the Democrats politically. This doesn’t bother you?

I’d trust Republicans on health care reform a tad more if they’d addressed it when they controlled the house, the Senate, and the white house. But they didn’t, so I don’t. I wonder how Nixon’s ideas on health care would have been recieved by the modern Republican party… probably extremely poorly!

342 HoosierHoops  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:28:52pm

re: #335 Alouette

Do you want to go around grabbing everyone else’s salt?

I never use salt on my food or eat anything with sugar..Just my beliefs in eating healthy.. I could care less about anybody else…This is still America..You get to eat McDonalds every day if you want…
*waves*
/What a beautiful grand baby you have..Cute as a button!

343 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:29:02pm

re: #338 Walter L. Newton

I don’t see YOUR difference ” between principled opposition and cynicism.” It’s disingenuous of you to think that there is any difference. It’s politics as usual.

Principled opposition is voting “no” against the Iraq War. Cynicism would be voting against the war, while also voting for a measure that was specifically crafted to increase the cost of the war with no benefit.

344 alexknyc  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:29:07pm

re: #224 drcordell

No, it’s not politics. It’s the perversion of the American political system. Our entire form of government is based on the concept that political parties would not have enough clout over their members to impose a strict party-line “no” vote on legislation. It’s the reason why the filibuster wasn’t a major issue in U.S. politics until the late 20th century. It’s the reason why we don’t have an electoral system similar to that of the British that allows parties to nominate slates of candidates for office.

Because no political party was ever expected to have enough power to prevent every single member of their party from acting in lockstep. The founding fathers intended there to be debate, cooperation and compromise when legislation was crafted. Not parliamentary gridlock.

Many of the Founding Fathers were not big on the idea of political parties in general for this very reason.

345 blueraven  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:29:09pm

re: #333 SteveC

I’m on a low-sodium diet and I cook without salt all the time.

OK, maybe I should edit a bit. I doubt there is a chef in NY that would go along with this.

Of course you can cook without salt, but it is a natural flavor enhancer. I don’t use salt at the table, but I could not cook without salt.

346 NYNY  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:29:16pm

Not a regular poster here but, have a few points about nationalized health care:
1. Why do people think they have a “right” to health care? Classically rights are things that can’t be taken from you,not stuff that you are given (if you doubt me then review the bill of rights and see what’s there. And before you respond “but people have a right to a lawyer” think about the context please - you only have that right if other rights are being taken from you)
2. Does the government do anything well? Why do you think they will do this well?
3. With all the rules/regulations on the books already do you really think that our current state is “free market.” Looks more like crony capitalism to me.

Interested in what others have to say (but have to run off to a meeting so may not be checking for a while)
4. Of course other countries spend less on health care - we are subsidizing them. The cost to discover a new drug and bring it to the market is huge, the cost to manufacture a single pill is low, drug companies make back the up-front (fixed) costs here in the US, and make a little on top of the variable costs selling to leaches like Canada.

There’s

347 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:29:19pm

re: #341 WindUpBird

How do I know you’re gay? You want to lead disco dollies to a life of vice.

348 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:29:22pm

re: #337 drcordell

It’s a quack resolution from a single nut in the assembly. Care for me to find you a list of all the wingnuttery that’s kicking around the state legislatures of the South? I can only imagine how many birther resolutions have been proposed.

Thanks for backing me up. That’s my whole point - there are decisions that shouldn’t be made by the political process, just because of the nature of that process.

As already noted, should the anti-salt bill ever come to the floor, it will almost certainly fail. But I’d bet serious money it would gather more than a single vote.

349 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:29:46pm

Ah, another productive day. We’ve spent the last hour fashioning workable spear throwers out of surplus office supplies.

350 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:30:05pm

re: #346 NYNY

Not a regular poster here but, have a few points about nationalized health care:
1. Why do people think they have a “right” to health care? Classically rights are things that can’t be taken from you,not stuff that you are given (if you doubt me then review the bill of rights and see what’s there. And before you respond “but people have a right to a lawyer” think about the context please - you only have that right if other rights are being taken from you)
2. Does the government do anything well? Why do you think they will do this well?
3. With all the rules/regulations on the books already do you really think that our current state is “free market.” Looks more like crony capitalism to me.

Interested in what others have to say (but have to run off to a meeting so may not be checking for a while)
4. Of course other countries spend less on health care - we are subsidizing them. The cost to discover a new drug and bring it to the market is huge, the cost to manufacture a single pill is low, drug companies make back the up-front (fixed) costs here in the US, and make a little on top of the variable costs selling to leaches like Canada.

There’s

You know this bill isn’t “nationalizing” health care, right?

You know that has NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE BILL, right?

351 NYNY  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:30:28pm

sorry, last post was cut off

interested in hearing other’s thought, but need to run off to a meeting so may not be checking for a while

352 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:30:29pm

re: #349 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ah, another productive day. We’ve spent the last hour fashioning workable spear throwers out of surplus office supplies.

Time. Well. Spent!

353 cliffster  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:30:31pm

re: #337 drcordell

It’s a quack resolution from a single nut in the assembly. Care for me to find you a list of all the wingnuttery that’s kicking around the state legislatures of the South? I can only imagine how many birther resolutions have been proposed.

Perhaps, I’m not sure why the kneejerk desire to pull in southern states. I don’t want people in DC telling me what to do, that’s that.

354 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:31:05pm

apparently to some people, preventing insurance companies from employing recission and making them justify their rate hikes is “nationalizing” health care.

Are we “nationalizing” food production because the FDA exists?

355 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:31:24pm

re: #343 drcordell

Principled opposition is voting “no” against the Iraq War. Cynicism would be voting against the war, while also voting for a measure that was specifically crafted to increase the cost of the war with no benefit.

Your political idealism is commendable… and so out of touch with the real world.

356 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:31:25pm

Another Healtchare opponent lie: Just published at Pajamas Media…
Hidden Deep Within ObamaCare, Racial Preferences (via Google)

In an article written for the American Thinker, Favish says the bill specifies that the secretary of Health and Human Services, “in awarding grants or contracts under this section … shall give preferences to entities that have a demonstrated record of … training individuals who are from underrepresented minority groups or disadvantaged backgrounds.

The bill doesn’t say what would qualify as a “demonstrated record,” so if ObamaCare passes you can expect that medical schools and other training institutions will do whatever they can to get away with training as many people as possible from so-called “disadvantaged backgrounds.”

By the way, if you’re poor and white, or Asian, or Jewish, don’t expect any advantage under this plan. The word “underrepresented” is inserted into the bill’s language to make it clear the preferences are aimed at giving a leg up to black and Hispanic students. According to the soft bigotry of the left, “underrepresented” is always meant to be read as “black” and “Latino.”

They claim the quote is on page 879. The only problem: There’s no such statement in the bill.

357 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:31:49pm

re: #349 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I’m busy teaching someone who’s supposed to teach me how to use Access how to use Access.

He’s looking something up in a three-ring binder right now. Later maybe I’ll let him know about how information can be stored and retrieved from computers. At least I was able to get his wireless working after awhile.

He’s an IT specialist.

358 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:32:32pm

re: #352 Varek Raith

Time. Well. Spent!

I now know I will be able to hunt for food using nothing more than some 3” screws, some duct tape, and a 2’ length of plastic piping

359 Why I Never!  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:32:49pm

Dems: Memo On Medicare Changes Isn’t Ours — It’s A GOP ‘Hoax’

Democrats today are accusing Republicans of circulating a fraudulent memo that claims to be sent to “Democratic health and communications staff” and which suggests the majority party leadership wants to make big changes to Medicare next year after health care passes.

A senior Democratic leadership aide told TPMDC in an interview the memo, obtained and printed by Politico and leading the Drudge Report this afternoon a few days ahead of the health care vote Sunday, is “a hoax.”

“We have checked with every Democratic office, no one has ever seen it. It did not come out of a Democratic office,” the aide said, adding that media outlets printing the memo have not checked with leadership offices if the memo is authentic. A second Democratic leadership aide confirmed the memo was not sent by the Democrats. A third Democratic aide also said the memo is fake, citing the “draft” stamp and saying no one uses such things.

“If this were a Democratic communications person who wrote this, they should be fired, because this looks like Republican talking points,” the third Democratic aide told TPMDC.

Reminder: Politico loves nothing better than to post Drudge-bait.

Second Reminder: The wingnuts will do anything.

360 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:32:58pm

re: #351 NYNY

sorry, last post was cut off

interested in hearing other’s thought, but need to run off to a meeting so may not be checking for a while

No you’re not interested in others thought, or else you wouldn’t have opened your comment with a silly lie like “nationalized health care.” I’m a fucking conservative and even I know it’s not that.

Troll.

361 cliffster  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:33:12pm

re: #341 WindUpBird

I’d trust Republicans on health care reform a tad more if they’d addressed it when they controlled the house, the Senate, and the white house. But they didn’t, so I don’t. I wonder how Nixon’s ideas on health care would have been recieved by the modern Republican party… probably extremely poorly!

Well, they rolled over and played dead on the issue that was paramount in getting Bush re-elected - SS reform. Also on a number of other bills that are a little more politically charged so I won’t go into them. Actually doing stuff was not high on the priorities of the Congress classes between 2002-2006

362 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:33:23pm

re: #350 WindUpBird

I want my country baaack.

363 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:33:57pm

re: #341 WindUpBird

I’d trust Republicans on health care reform a tad more if they’d addressed it when they controlled the house, the Senate, and the white house. But they didn’t, so I don’t. I wonder how Nixon’s ideas on health care would have been recieved by the modern Republican party… probably extremely poorly!


Nixon would be derided as a Marxist today I am certain of it. The president today actually mentioned him as a past champion of health care reform. Heck remember reading in Ted Kennedy’s autobio that he regretted not working more harder with Nixon on a bill.

364 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:34:11pm

re: #356 Killgore Trout

ooops. I stand corrected. It’s on page 881-882….

‘‘(1) Training the greatest percentage, or sig22
nificantly improving the percentage, of health care
23 professionals who provide primary care.
1 ‘‘(2) Training individuals who are from under2
represented minority groups or disadvantaged back3
grounds.
4 ‘‘(3) A high rate of placing graduates in prac5
tice settings having the principal focus of serving in
6 underserved areas or populations experiencing health
7 disparities (including serving patients eligible for
8 medical assistance under title XIX of the Social Se9
curity Act or for child health assistance under title
10 XXI of such Act or those with special health care
11 needs).
12 ‘‘(4) Supporting teaching programs that ad13
dress the health care needs of vulnerable popu14
lations.
365 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:34:14pm

re: #321 Bob Levin

You’re a very sweet person. I can tell that. I said that I am fully aware of the medical bureaucracy in a doctor’s office. It will get bigger. That’s not a tragedy.

Sorry if I misunderstood.

Having a more uniform set of rules as to what must be covered and when should actually reduce the bureaucracy now faced by doctors. Instead of dealing with 1,500 insurance companies each with 15 policies, there would be streamlining. Instead of tricksy fine print in the policies designed to deny care for flimsy made-up reasons, there will be national standards.

Win-win.

366 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:35:09pm

re: #359 iceweasel

Hot Air readers are claiming it’s a Dem hoax to frame the gop.

367 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:35:31pm

re: #366 Killgore Trout

Gotta admit that would be a hella funny plan >>

368 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:35:34pm

re: #357 Obdicut

I’m busy teaching someone who’s supposed to teach me how to use Access how to use Access.

He’s looking something up in a three-ring binder right now. Later maybe I’ll let him know about how information can be stored and retrieved from computers. At least I was able to get his wireless working after awhile.

He’s an IT specialist.

Earlier, I got to sit thru the “by the book” troubleshooting steps with our vendor. 45 minutes of going by rote steps we both knew weren’t going to work so I could send the data files I had already pulled for him.

369 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:35:52pm

re: #366 Killgore Trout

Wait, seriously, didn’t we go through this whole same rigamarole with the Rather thing?

370 Why I Never!  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:35:55pm

And when I say the wingnuts will do anything to block HCR, I do mean anything.

State of the health care debate: Talk radio attacks an 11-year old

Conservative talk show hosts and columnists have ridiculed an 11-year-old Washington state boy’s account of his mother’s death as a “sob story” exploited by the White House and congressional Democrats like a “kiddie shield” to defend their health care legislation.

Marcelas Owens, whose mother got sick, lost her job, lost her health insurance and died, said Thursday he’s taking the attacks from Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and Michelle Malkin in stride.

“My mother always taught me they can have their own opinion but that doesn’t mean they are right,” Owens, who lives in Seattle, said in an interview.

Owens’ grandmother, Gina, who watched her daughter die, isn’t quite so generous.

“These are adults, and he is an 11-year-old boy who lost his mother,” Gina Owens said. “They should be ashamed.”

371 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:36:26pm

re: #354 WindUpBird

apparently to some people, preventing insurance companies from employing recission and making them justify their rate hikes is “nationalizing” health care.

Are we “nationalizing” food production because the FDA exists?

There was a guy on here a while ago who wanted to get rid of the FDA. Thought the free market would take care of food and drug safety.

That free market! Is there anything it can’t do?

372 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:37:18pm

re: #350 WindUpBird

You know this bill isn’t “nationalizing” health care, right?

You know that has NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE BILL, right?

There’s a slippery slope argument, that the expansion of Medicare to include the uninsured, regardless of age, will ultimately lead to unbalanced competition that forces private insurers off the playing field, as government-funded care inexorably expands due to it’s face-value cost savings.

Hard to say whether that argument has merit, but I can tell you with certainty that my company is definitely interested in dumping it’s private health insurance if given the chance. Right now, it’s “mandated” in order to attract qualified employees. Once there’s a government-provided, taxpayer-sponsored alternative, not so much. I think they’ll dump it in a heatbeat, and tell everyone to apply for Medicare.

373 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:37:34pm

re: #366 Killgore Trout

Hot Air readers are claiming it’s a Dem hoax to frame the gop.

It coincided perfectly with the 4 or 5 Reps I saw on the TV all saying at the same time, “doc fix”

374 Kragar (Antichrist )  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:37:52pm

re: #371 SanFranciscoZionist

There was a guy on here a while ago who wanted to get rid of the FDA. Thought the free market would take care of food and drug safety.

That free market! Is there anything it can’t do?

Assuming we can still ride snake oil salesmen out of town on a rail after we tar and feather them, no.

/

375 cliffster  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:38:07pm

re: #357 Obdicut

I’m busy teaching someone who’s supposed to teach me how to use Access how to use Access.

He’s looking something up in a three-ring binder right now. Later maybe I’ll let him know about how information can be stored and retrieved from computers. At least I was able to get his wireless working after awhile.

He’s an IT specialist.

Tables? How can you fit a table into a computer?

376 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:38:08pm
377 Why I Never!  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:38:18pm

re: #366 Killgore Trout

Hot Air readers are claiming it’s a Dem hoax to frame the gop.

Of course they would.
Because on the eve of passing historic and sweeping legislation that would improve the lives of millions of Americans, the Dems are only thinking about how to make the GOP ‘look bad’.

Talk about projection.

378 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:39:28pm

re: #370 iceweasel

And when I say the wingnuts will do anything to block HCR, I do mean anything.

State of the health care debate: Talk radio attacks an 11-year old

I have to say that I’m disgusted by the behavior on both sides:

“These are adults, and he is an 11-year-old boy who lost his mother,” Gina Owens said. “They should be ashamed.”

This little boy’s grandma is absolutely right, and both sides of the debate should be ashamed of themselves.

379 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:39:31pm

Hey, Hoops! How are you this fine day?

I sent you a email last night.

380 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:40:04pm

re: #370 iceweasel

And when I say the wingnuts will do anything to block HCR, I do mean anything.

State of the health care debate: Talk radio attacks an 11-year old

Not the first time Malkin’s gone after kids. Seriously, what a bunch of classless jerks. Poor kid lost his mother. They could just say we disagree with so and so’s opinion and here’s why instead of being condescending pricks about it but Malkin doesn’t know shit about decency and humanity.

381 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:40:13pm

re: #378 subsailor68

“both sides?”

Where the heck did you get that out of this story?

382 cliffster  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:40:18pm

re: #371 SanFranciscoZionist

There was a guy on here a while ago who wanted to get rid of the FDA. Thought the free market would take care of food and drug safety.

That free market! Is there anything it can’t do?

That’s probably true, depending on how you interpret “taking care of”. The problem is, market forces are in terms of numbers. If enough people die because they eat X or take Y medicine, that will negatively impact the supplier. In reality, we’d kinda prefer that those numbers be zero.

383 Why I Never!  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:40:46pm

re: #378 subsailor68

I have to say that I’m disgusted by the behavior on both sides:

“These are adults, and he is an 11-year-old boy who lost his mother,” Gina Owens said. “They should be ashamed.”

This little boy’s grandma is absolutely right, and both sides of the debate should be ashamed of themselves.

What the fuck do the Dems have to be ashamed of in that story?
Pull the other one.

384 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:41:10pm

ANYONE CAN ANSWER.

On the “submit a link” on the front page, if I try to submit a link to the Jpost, it won’t take it… say “not a valid URL.”

What?

385 HoosierHoops  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:41:21pm

re: #379 Cato the Elder

Hey, Hoops! How are you this fine day?

I sent you a email last night.

Hi Cato.. Would you send your phone number to Ice? I’ll call you this weekend

386 NYNY  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:41:39pm

to #360 - sorry not a regular poster here so don’t know how to properly link to a prior post (cut/paste?)

you are right and I partly misspoke - I should have said something like “government getting this involved in healthcare”
I do buy the slippery slope arguement though and that’s where I was coming from.

387 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:42:03pm

re: #378 subsailor68

I have to say that I’m disgusted by the behavior on both sides:

“These are adults, and he is an 11-year-old boy who lost his mother,” Gina Owens said. “They should be ashamed.”

This little boy’s grandma is absolutely right, and both sides of the debate should be ashamed of themselves.

Yeah how dare that kid speak out about how his mother died because she lacked access to proper health care. He should just shut his mouth.

388 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:42:13pm

re: #385 HoosierHoops

Hi Cato.. Would you send your phone number to Ice? I’ll call you this weekend

She has it already. Look forward to talking with you.

389 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:42:39pm

re: #383 iceweasel

What the fuck do the Dems have to be ashamed of in that story?
Pull the other one.

When you take a little boy who has just lost his mother and put him in front of a crowd to make your case, that’s as disgusting to me as the morons in talk radio who exploit the other side. That’s my only point.

390 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:42:57pm

re: #382 cliffster

And given that tobacco and cocaine exist, the market shows that it cannot, actually, stop unhealthy products from being sold at all.

Most theories of market correction assume information is perfect in the system. Information is not only not perfect in the system, but information is its own market— the obfuscation of information is a market advantage to many.

391 Why I Never!  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:43:02pm

Rep. Paul Broun: The ramifications of health reform will be like ‘the Great War of Yankee Aggression.’

As the vote on health care approaches, Republican lawmakers are attacking the legislation with increasingly bizarre and hateful comments. Rep. Paul Broun (R-GA), a far right lawmaker who has led much of the opposition to health reform, took to the floor of the House of Representatives last night to deliver a diatribe against health reform. Previously, Broun had compared President Obama to a dictator who would impose martial law. But last night, Broun out-performed his reactionary colleagues and even his own track record of absurdity. Bellowing into the microphone, Broun said that “if ObamaCare passes,” a “free insurance card” (which is not in the bill) will be “as worthless as a Confederate dollar after the “Great War of Yankee Aggression“:

BROUN: If ObamaCare passes, that free insurance card that’s in people’s pockets is gonna be as worthless as a Confederate dollar after the War Between The States — the Great War of Yankee Aggression.

Just another Dem plot to make the Republicans look bad.

392 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:43:05pm

re: #389 subsailor68

That’s just awful.

393 HoosierHoops  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:43:36pm

re: #388 Cato the Elder

She has it already. Look forward to talking with you.

Kewl.. Ice please email his phone number…
/Now back to the knock down drag out fight about HC…

394 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:43:50pm

re: #391 iceweasel

Oh the South! I try so hard not to be a regionalist douche, but then they vote guys like this into power!

395 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:43:51pm

re: #386 NYNY

to #360 - sorry not a regular poster here so don’t know how to properly link to a prior post (cut/paste?)

you are right and I partly misspoke - I should have said something like “government getting this involved in healthcare”
I do buy the slippery slope arguement though and that’s where I was coming from.

Like the slippery slope that when we let “teh gays” marry, legalized beastiality will soon follow?

The slippery slope Al Qaida talks about with regard to the U.S. invasions in Iraq and Afghanistan leading to an American colonization of the entire Muslim world?

That kind of slippery slope?

396 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:44:04pm

re: #389 subsailor68

Why? If I use the example of my friend who can’t get surgery to correct the chronic pain in his wrist because his insurance won’t cover it, instead preferring to keep him on a steady diet of hardcore painkillers because it’s cheaper— I’m disgusting?

Explain that logic.

397 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:44:05pm

re: #391 iceweasel

Rep. Paul Broun: The ramifications of health reform will be like ‘the Great War of Yankee Aggression.’

Just another Dem plot to make the Republicans look bad.

“The Great War of Yankee Aggression.” Oh Broun you mean like when the Confederates attacked an US Military installation. Or your “states rights” when you wanted to own other human beings.

398 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:44:12pm

re: #391 iceweasel

Rep. Paul Broun: The ramifications of health reform will be like ‘the Great War of Yankee Aggression.’

Just another Dem plot to make the Republicans look bad.

LOLWHUT?

399 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:44:16pm

re: #387 drcordell

Yeah how dare that kid speak out about how his mother died because she lacked access to proper health care. He should just shut his mouth.

I’ll accept your point, if - in fact - that little boy called and said “I really want to get in front of a crowd and talk about my mom dying.”

If he didn’t, shame on everyone involved.

400 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:44:29pm

re: #356 Killgore Trout

Another Healtchare opponent lie: Just published at Pajamas Media…
Hidden Deep Within ObamaCare, Racial Preferences (via Google)

They claim the quote is on page 879. The only problem: There’s no such statement in the bill.

My goodness.

401 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:44:48pm

re: #389 subsailor68

When you take a little boy who has just lost his mother and put him in front of a crowd to make your case, that’s as disgusting to me as the morons in talk radio who exploit the other side. That’s my only point.

So it’s completely irrelevant to the health care debate in this country that an 11-year old boy has a dead mother because she lacked health insurance?

402 dr. luba  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:45:46pm

re: #314 Walter L. Newton

What part of “they didn’t want anything to do with it” don’t you understand. I’m sure the Democrats will make the best of it. I have faith in them.

Disagreeing and opposing? Fine.

Blocking the deletion of provisions which they themselves oppose (making the bill worse and more expensive) for political gain? Cynicism. And a perversion of the democratic process.

403 Why I Never!  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:46:06pm

[Link: www.washingtonmonthly.com…]

It’s really an awful story. Tifanny Owens was an assistant manager at a fast-food restaurant, but her health deteriorated, and she needed time off. She was fired and left with no insurance. Three years ago, Tifanny Owens died at age 27 of pulmonary hypertension, leaving Marcelas and his two younger sisters to live with their grandmother.

The pain and tragedy surrounding Marcelas Owens was first identified by Sen. Patty Murray (D-Wash.), who helped bring him to Washington to share his story at a touching event last week.

Limbaugh, Beck, and Malkin, showing the kind of restraint we’ve come to expect from leading right-wing voices, have gone after nearly everyone involved — including Tifanny Owens, who they say should have done more to find government programs that might have helped her (as if it’s the dead mother’s fault she died, after failing to find government programs that Limbaugh, Beck, and Malkin oppose anyway).

“I would say this to Marcelas Owens: ‘Well, your mom would still have died, because Obamacare doesn’t kick in until 2014,’” Limbaugh said.

More Dem plots to make the wingnuts look bad.

404 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:46:35pm

re: #399 subsailor68

I’ll accept your point, if - in fact - that little boy called and said “I really want to get in front of a crowd and talk about my mom dying.”

If he didn’t, shame on everyone involved.

At this point you’re just grasping at straws here.

405 NYNY  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:46:47pm

re 395

umm, no
more like the continued increase of the government as a share of the worlds GDP type of slippery slope.

And I know these are some of my first posts but still, please don’t tie me together with social conservatives. I’m basically a libertarian.

406 keloyd  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:46:48pm

re: #341 WindUpBird

… Nixon’s ideas …


or Nixon’s ideas on economics, or throwing money at education (including more cash than historically Black college had ever seen or imagined to date) or support for a degree of affirmative action, or abortion, or stem cell research, or being flexible about the Drug War, or sensible Republican cloth coats, etc.

Except for the occasional twinge of evil, and phlebitis, Nixon was one of our best, or at least most capable presidents. Every time I heard of the billion dollar corporate board crony deals, and other such departures from market forces, I can’t help thinking of Pat Nixon and her ‘respectable Republican cloth coat.’

A 97 year old living Nixon would be about as Republican as Olympia Snow.

407 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:47:17pm

re: #403 iceweasel

They’re a cunning bunch, those Democrats.

408 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:47:23pm

re: #396 Obdicut

Why? If I use the example of my friend who can’t get surgery to correct the chronic pain in his wrist because his insurance won’t cover it, instead preferring to keep him on a steady diet of hardcore painkillers because it’s cheaper— I’m disgusting?

Explain that logic.

Not the same thing. I assume a) your friend is an adult, and b) your friend is capable of understanding that you are using his example and is okay with it.

409 Why I Never!  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:47:30pm

re: #393 HoosierHoops

Kewl.. Ice please email his phone number…
/Now back to the knock down drag out fight about HC…

Cato— I can’t. Email it to me and I’ll send to Hoops. My phone broke, remember? My numbers are all stored in it and I won’t be able to replace my phone til late tonight/sometime tomorrow.

410 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:47:35pm

re: #405 NYNY

What’s your opinion of Ron Paul?

411 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:47:49pm

re: #403 iceweasel

[Link: www.washingtonmonthly.com…]

More Dem plots to make the wingnuts look bad.

I wonder how many years it will take for the entire Bush Presidency to be re-cast as a “sekrit Demokrat” plot to smear the great Republican party?

412 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:48:00pm

re: #408 subsailor68

Sometimes you just have to quit digging the hole man >>

413 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:48:36pm

re: #392 windsagio

That’s just awful.

Same argument made the other night - Obama not allowed to talk about how his Mother had to deal with her insurance company while dying of cancer.

We are humans who have personal experiences. They affect how we think, absolutely whack that we should not refer to them because it might be unseemly to other folks.

414 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:48:45pm

re: #402 dr. luba

Disagreeing and opposing? Fine.

Blocking the deletion of provisions which they themselves oppose (making the bill worse and more expensive) for political gain? Cynicism. And a perversion of the democratic process.

Sure… first time for everything… right?

415 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:48:53pm

re: #410 Obdicut

What’s your opinion of Ron Paul?

My spider sense is tingling…

416 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:49:10pm

re: #408 subsailor68

So the people fighting for coverage that would have helped this boy shouldn’t use his experience as an example of what they’re fighting for why, again?

I cannot even understand what your argument is supposed to be. We can’t use examples that involve children? Why the hell not?

And my friend has no clue that I’m using him as an example. Why is that the least bit important?

417 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:49:39pm

re: #413 Stanley Sea

In fairness, I’m saying what subsailor is saying is awful, not that the kid stepped forward with his story.

418 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:49:42pm

re: #401 drcordell

So it’s completely irrelevant to the health care debate in this country that an 11-year old boy has a dead mother because she lacked health insurance?

Nope. That’s not my concern. My only point is that he was exploited by one side as much as you’re disgusted by the attempt of the other to do the same.

419 alexknyc  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:49:49pm

re: #396 Obdicut

Why? If I use the example of my friend who can’t get surgery to correct the chronic pain in his wrist because his insurance won’t cover it, instead preferring to keep him on a steady diet of hardcore painkillers because it’s cheaper— I’m disgusting?

Explain that logic.

You can’t see the difference between an adult who can’t get surgery speaking out and other adults parading an 11-year-old who just lost his mother in front of cameras for political gain?

Seriously?

420 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:50:16pm

re: #416 Obdicut

The thought process seems to be ‘the Democrats must be as bad as the Republicans, no matter what!’

421 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:50:16pm

re: #415 Varek Raith

My spider sense is tingling…

Right on… wouldn’t want NYNY here if he/she likes Paul. Let’s put an end to that right now.

422 NYNY  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:50:28pm

re #410

one of the worst things that ever happened to libertarianism

423 HoosierHoops  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:51:00pm

re: #396 Obdicut

Why? If I use the example of my friend who can’t get surgery to correct the chronic pain in his wrist because his insurance won’t cover it, instead preferring to keep him on a steady diet of hardcore painkillers because it’s cheaper— I’m disgusting?

Explain that logic.

The other day I was talking to our security folks about Healthcare.. They have some cheap ass plan that doesn’t pay for shit until you exceed 3000 dollars in a year…These folks make like 12 bucks an hour and can’t afford doctor visits yet they receive nothing until they exceed 3k..
It is pure bullshit to save a buck for the bottom line…One girl needs to visit a woman’s doctor and can’t afford the 350 bucks for the visit…

424 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:51:14pm

re: #421 Walter L. Newton

Right on… wouldn’t want NYNY here if he/she likes Paul. Let’s put an end to that right now.

Whoops, that came off wrong. It’s not in response to liking Paul, just in general.
Sorry.

425 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:51:21pm

re: #419 alexknyc

What political gain are they hoping for? Is it for the passage of a bill that would have helped this boy’s mother?

It’s like saying you can’t use children who were abducted as examples of why Amber’s Law is a good thing. I cannot for the life of me follow this goddamn logic.

426 Why I Never!  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:51:26pm

re: #407 windsagio

They’re a cunning bunch, those Democrats.

Sure are!
GOP Congressmen Say That ‘Everyone’ In Congress ‘Would Agree That Iraq Was A Mistake’

Yesterday, the libertarian Cato Institute hosted a panel discussion on conservatism and the war in Afghanistan with Rep. Tom McClintock (R-CA), Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA) and Rep. John J. Duncan, Jr. (R-TN). When the conversation shifted to the war in Iraq, Rohrabacher said that “once President Bush decided to go into Iraq, I thought it was a mistake because we hadn’t finished the job in Afghanistan,” but that once Bush “decided to go in,” he “felt compelled” to “back him up.” He then added that “the decision to go in, in retrospect, almost all of us think that was a horrible mistake.”

Moderator Grover Norquist then asked Rohrabacher to provide a “guesstimate percentage of Republicans in Congress who would share that view — not that they opposed the President at the time, but today looking back.” Rohrabacher replied that “everybody I know thinks it was a mistake to go in now”:

Another Dem plot to make the GOP look bad. I blame Bush./

427 recusancy  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:51:41pm

re: #422 NYNY

There’s a button called “Reply” on each post. Click it when you reply to someone.

428 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:52:02pm

re: #422 NYNY

re #410

one of the worst things that ever happened to libertarianism

Note: if you hit the “Reply” button, your comment will have the post it is replying to inserted automatically. If you hit “Quote,” you’ll get that, plus the body of the message itself inserted.

429 NYNY  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:52:17pm

re: #427 recusancy

ah, thanks not sure how I missed that

430 blueraven  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:52:18pm

re: #408 subsailor68

Not the same thing. I assume a) your friend is an adult, and b) your friend is capable of understanding that you are using his example and is okay with it.

I would submit that an 11 year old, who watched his own mother die, in part, from not having health insurance, has grown up pretty fast.
He has as much right to be an advocate for reform as anyone else.

431 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:52:37pm

re: #422 NYNY

Thanks for answering so quickly and decisively.

And for the record I agree with you on Paul. I do not think that there is much left of ‘libertarianism’ in the US besides some minarchists and Paulites.

Most people seem to think libertarians are automatically for smaller government, which just makes my head hurt with the wrongness of it.

432 shiplord kirel  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:53:06pm

re: #391 iceweasel

Broun? Sounds familiar.

Lessee…..Broun…..Broun

Oh yes, we’ve heard from this nutburger before:

And Now, Black Helicopter Republicans

“That’s exactly what Hitler did in Nazi Germany and it’s exactly what the Soviet Union did,” Broun said. “When he’s (Obama’s) proposing to have a national security force that’s answering to him, that is as strong as the U.S. military, he’s showing me signs of being Marxist.” …

“We can’t be lulled into complacency,” Broun said. “You have to remember that Adolf Hitler was elected in a democratic Germany. I’m not comparing him to Adolf Hitler. What I’m saying is there is the potential.”

433 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:53:07pm

re: #430 blueraven

I would submit that an 11 year old, who watched his own mother die, in part, from not having health insurance, has grown up pretty fast.
He has as much right to be an advocate for reform as anyone else.

Hamas TV Showing 4 Year Old Girl Vowing Suicide Bombing

434 NYNY  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:53:16pm

lol, sounds like I passed the test, and I apologize for taking the topic partially off thread

435 keloyd  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:53:24pm

re: #397 HappyWarrior

“The Great War of Yankee Aggression.” Oh Broun you mean like when the Confederates attacked an US Military installation. Or your “states rights” when you wanted to own other human beings.

I think he means when a section of the country that was under the economic thumb of the North tried to leave the union, as was it’s right under the Constitution, being a living, breathing document, then was crushed by the North, including 4 slave states, then we’re told they were the good guys 6 generations later, even though the Emancipation Proclamation only outlawed slavery in the rebelling states, even tho de facto, the union army enslaved many runaways.

Also, my maternal grandmother knew people who were witnesses to Sherman’s war crimes. You don’t need 6 degrees like Kevin BAcon for this one, I can get there in 2.

Devil his due - “states’ rights” for the last 70 years has been a dog whistle for some pretty vile stuff.

436 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:53:36pm

re: #417 windsagio

In fairness, I’m saying what subsailor is saying is awful, not that the kid stepped forward with his story.

I hate when I type badly. I agree with you.

437 RightKlik  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:53:40pm

The most optimistic estimates say that less than one in five US physicians are AMA members:

[Link: www.hcplive.com…]

438 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:53:48pm

Well all, must go. I’m sorry we disagree on an issue, but that’s what it’s all about sometimes. I hope everyone here has a great evening and a terrific weekend!

439 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:53:54pm

re: #419 alexknyc

You can’t see the difference between an adult who can’t get surgery speaking out and other adults parading an 11-year-old who just lost his mother in front of cameras for political gain?

Seriously?

Perhaps you might differentiate political gain from the passage of a bill that will be massively beneficial to millions of Americans without health insurance. You know, people who might not die like the boy’s mother because they have access to health care.

440 andres  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:54:00pm

re: #351 NYNY

sorry, last post was cut off

interested in hearing other’s thought, but need to run off to a meeting so may not be checking for a while

Yes, it was cut off.

6 months ago when all your talking points were debunked.

441 Bob Levin  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:54:13pm

re: #365 Cato the Elder

No problem. My point was that if the doctors who actually have to run their businesses are okay with this, how can I be against this?

442 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:54:19pm

re: #434 NYNY

Heh. It’s just an easy first question— as I’m sure you’ve noticed, a lot of the people calling themselves ‘libertarians’ these days are nothing of the sort in any way whatsover. Apologies if it seemed hostile.

443 alexknyc  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:54:23pm

re: #425 Obdicut

What political gain are they hoping for? Is it for the passage of a bill that would have helped this boy’s mother?

It’s like saying you can’t use children who were abducted as examples of why Amber’s Law is a good thing. I cannot for the life of me follow this goddamn logic.

Using the story is fine. Putting the boy in front of the cameras to score political points is not.

Are you really unable to distinguish between using the story and using the boy?

444 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:54:24pm

re: #435 keloyd

-for neoconfederate apologism.

445 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:54:54pm

re: #437 RightKlik

I linked a poll above, if you’re interested in a wider response from doctors.

446 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:55:32pm

re: #430 blueraven

I would submit that an 11 year old, who watched his own mother die, in part, from not having health insurance, has grown up pretty fast.
He has as much right to be an advocate for reform as anyone else.

From Jesus Camp…

Rachel: [preaching to a group of guys sitting in a park] If you were to die right now in this moment, where do you think you’d go?
guy in the park: Heaven
Rachel: [subdued] Really?
guy in the park: Yeah. Sure.
Rachel: Oh… okay. Have a nice day!
[runs back to her friends]
Rachel: I think they were Muslims!

447 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:55:33pm

re: #415 Varek Raith

My spider sense is tingling…

I retract this stupid comment.

448 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:55:51pm

re: #443 alexknyc

Using the story is fine. Putting the boy in front of the cameras to score political points is not.

Are you really unable to distinguish between using the story and using the boy?

How do you know whether or not he voluntarily decided to speak out or not? Do you know for a fact he was forced to speak out?

449 NYNY  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:55:55pm

re: #431 Obdicut

I am mostly for smaller/simpler government, but Paul is bat-$#@%$3 crazy about most everything. Especially when it comes to conspiracies.

450 Why I Never!  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:56:20pm

Gays Are More Dangerous Than Guns In Florida

Basically, what Florida is saying is that it’s totally fine to own guns if you want to adopt children — just as long as you’re not gay. While state legislators rushed to pass the NRA-backed measure that fixes a relatively small problem, they still haven’t addressed the major issue that gay families are banned from adopting children. A couple of state lawmakers tried to introduce amendments to the gun bill that would have also barred “adoption agencies from inquiring about a person’s sexual orientation as a requisite for adoption,” but they eventually had to withdraw them.

Florida is the only state to explicitly outlaw gay and lesbian adoptions. The state implemented its ban in 1977 — two years before the first reported case of an adoption by an openly gay person anywhere in the country. Until this week, there hadn’t been a serious debate on the Florida gay adoption ban in the law’s 33-year history.

451 blueraven  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:56:21pm

re: #433 Walter L. Newton

Hamas TV Showing 4 Year Old Girl Vowing Suicide Bombing

I am not sure what your point is Walter. Are you trying to equate these two matters?

452 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:56:42pm

re: #443 alexknyc

Yes, I am. Can you explain why putting him in front of cameras is bad, please?

It’s his damn story to tell too, you know.

Do I think we should base policy off of anecdotal stories from eleven year olds? No.

Do I think that we, as humans, understand topics better when a human face is put to it, when a real person is talking about their experiences?

Yes.

Those attacking the child should be goddamn ashamed of themselves. I am really not sure why you feel those who think that this child can help them pass legislation that would help people in his position are exploiting him.

453 keloyd  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:56:45pm

re: #444 windsagio

-for neoconfederate apologism.

we were bad but they most definitely were NOT better.

454 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:57:06pm

re: #443 alexknyc

couldn’t agree more………..


455 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:57:06pm

re: #450 iceweasel

heh, its like you’re playing mandy today, except without the

(SNIP)

:p

456 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:57:21pm

re: #449 NYNY

Are you in favor of the government saving $5 now if it means they have to spend $50 in ten years on the same problem?

457 Randall Gross  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:57:23pm

re: #410 Obdicut

What’s your opinion of Ron Paul?

Ron Paul is a Paleo social conservative in Libtard clothing…

458 recusancy  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:57:31pm

re: #451 blueraven

I am not sure what your point is Walter. Are you trying to equate these two matters?

There is I/P Conflict turrets here quite often.

459 Jack Burton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:57:34pm

re: #432 shiplord kirel

I’m getting really tired of idiots (and they are legion on the left and the right) who say this:

“You have to remember that Adolf Hitler was elected in a democratic Germany.”

Because it’s not true. Hitler never won a single election. He was appointed to every government position he was in. People need to crack a fucking history book.

460 windsagio  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:57:40pm

re: #453 keloyd

You know, I think I’m gonna drop this, and go outside (Its a beautiful day).

Your 2 posts fill me with rage.

461 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:57:43pm

re: #400 SanFranciscoZionist

My goodness.

Check the updates. My mistake, It’s in there but they’re twisting the meaning. I think it’s probably standard language for government contracts.

462 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:58:04pm

re: #430 blueraven

I would submit that an 11 year old, who watched his own mother die, in part, from not having health insurance, has grown up pretty fast.
He has as much right to be an advocate for reform as anyone else.

Is this ok too…

Children protesting at pro-life rallies…

Image: 1975%20Finns%20Photo%20Pro-life%20Picket%2075KB.jpg

463 Why I Never!  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:58:19pm

re: #455 windsagio

heh, its like you’re playing mandy today, except without the

(SNIP)

:p

Yeah, and with the exception of that last one, all my links have been on the thread topic.

464 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:58:58pm

re: #451 blueraven

I am not sure what your point is Walter. Are you trying to equate these two matters?

You have no problem with children speaking out, right?

465 recusancy  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:58:59pm

re: #459 ArchangelMichael

I’m getting really tired of idiots (and they are legion on the left and the right) who say this:

Because it’s not true. Hitler never won a single election. He was appointed to every government position he was in. People need to crack a fucking history book.

Just not a Texas history book.

466 alexknyc  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 1:59:44pm

re: #448 drcordell

How do you know whether or not he voluntarily decided to speak out or not? Do you know for a fact he was forced to speak out?

He’s 11 years old, what is he legally allowed to consent to?

I have a feeling that, were he (or you) on the other side of the issue, you’d have more problem with it.

One of the big problems in American politics today is that people believe what’s acceptable depends on what side suggested it.

467 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:00:03pm

re: #435 keloyd

I think he means when a section of the country that was under the economic thumb of the North tried to leave the union, as was it’s right under the Constitution, being a living, breathing document, then was crushed by the North, including 4 slave states, then we’re told they were the good guys 6 generations later, even though the Emancipation Proclamation only outlawed slavery in the rebelling states, even tho de facto, the union army enslaved many runaways.

Also, my maternal grandmother knew people who were witnesses to Sherman’s war crimes. You don’t need 6 degrees like Kevin BAcon for this one, I can get there in 2.

Devil his due - “states’ rights” for the last 70 years has been a dog whistle for some pretty vile stuff.

The North weren’t saints don’t get me wrong but I just hate the glamorizing of the confederacy and acting like only they were victimized. What about Southern attrocities such as Fort Pillow where surrendered Black soldiers were butchered. Make no mistake I don’t think the North was perfect or even for the most part had great motives during the war but the romanticizing of the old South sickens me and the use of “states rights” to condone nasty shit from slavery to lynching to denying people the right to vote. I should add that I am a Southerner myself too.

468 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:00:11pm

re: #391 iceweasel

Rep. Paul Broun: The ramifications of health reform will be like ‘the Great War of Yankee Aggression.’

Just another Dem plot to make the Republicans look bad.

Ah, yes, the free insurance card.

Actually, Kaiser has never charged me for my cards, they even send me new ones from time to time.

469 drcordell  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:00:17pm

re: #464 Walter L. Newton

You have no problem with children speaking out, right?

Bit of a difference between a 4-year-old and an 11-year-old. The former isn’t able to have an opinion on anything much more complicated than jellybeans. The latter should be able to comprehend wanting others to not experience what he just did.

470 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:00:24pm

re: #366 Killgore Trout

Hot Air readers are claiming it’s a Dem hoax to frame the gop.

Another hoax conspiracy? Some of the wingnuts think the Newsweek-FLOTUS-Karl Marx/Apple stupidity was a “librul” hoax.

471 Randall Gross  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:00:27pm

re: #426 iceweasel

Another Dem plot to make the GOP look bad. I blame Bush./

I’ve been predicting that the Luap Nor Wing was going to take the R’s full bore antiwar, and head towards handing us another Viet Nam in Afghanistaan

472 NYNY  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:00:35pm

re: #456 Obdicut

snarky answer - it depends on the rate of inflation ;-)

more seriosuly - yes, but I’m fairly cynical that the govenment will successfully save that money.

Finally, should the govenement even be responsible for spending the money in the first place?

473 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:00:55pm

re: #399 subsailor68

I’ll accept your point, if - in fact - that little boy called and said “I really want to get in front of a crowd and talk about my mom dying.”

If he didn’t, shame on everyone involved.

In other words, your “shame on everyone” schtick is based on pure goddamned ignorance:

I came out here for health care, I got involved because my mom was a health care activist, she testified and participated in rallies. She wanted people to have health care and not wait till management level to be offered health care,” said Marcelas.

The fifth-grader is continuing the battle his mother can no longer fight. “She was diagnosed with pulmonary hypertension, she started missing work, and when she was there she was sent home early,” he said.

“She lost her job and her health care with it” said Marcelas.

For Marcelas, the issue is personal. “I don’t want any other kid to go through the pain that our family has gone through,” he said, his voice cracked with emotion. “I want Barack Obama and Congress and everybody to come together and help the health care bill pass.”

Pulmonary hypertension is treatable, but untreated it is an awful way to die. I have it, before my own hypertensive crisis sent me to the ICU I had headaches like you wouldn’t believe, was starting to lose central vision in both eyes, and the CAT scan revealed a diffuse area of low connection in my left parietal brain lobe. A few days in the hospital, a good doctor willing to work with my meds and see me despite my then indigence and inability to pay is what kept me alive, gave me back my vision, and helped me recover. Marcelas’ Mom likely suffered kidney failure, liver death, and severe brain damage that destroyed her personality long before her body died of this completely treatable condition.

So no, the shame is on you.

474 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:01:14pm

re: #469 drcordell

Bit of a difference between a 4-year-old and an 11-year-old. The former isn’t able to have an opinion on anything much more complicated than jellybeans. The latter should be able to comprehend wanting others to not experience what he just did.

Then this should be fine with you too!

Image: 1975%20Finns%20Photo%20Pro-life%20Picket%2075KB.jpg

475 blueraven  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:01:16pm

re: #464 Walter L. Newton

You have no problem with children speaking out, right?


You are trying to say I think that is ok? fuck you Walter.

476 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:01:25pm

re: #463 iceweasel

Yeah, and with the exception of that last one, all my links have been on the thread topic.

And not from 2008, thank you very much.

477 keloyd  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:01:44pm

re: #459 ArchangelMichael

I’m getting really tired of idiots (and they are legion on the left and the right) who say this:

Because it’s not true. Hitler never won a single election. He was appointed to every government position he was in. People need to crack a fucking history book.

IIRC, the Treaty of Versailles arranged the German parliament to where any party with ~60k voters got a seat. The result was severe balkanization - lots of fringe parties, so every “government” was a loose confederation. Hitler’s mob got something like 1/3 of the vote at most, but that’s enough to build a coalition in that kind of system. Then the Nazis used a combination fo good luck, thuggery, and advanced pr tactics to muscle out all their coalition partners. Thank the French and English in part for forcing the Germans to have such a stupid system. Also, think of this scenario the next time we think our 2 party system is too problematic.

478 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:02:12pm

re: #469 drcordell

Bit of a difference between a 4-year-old and an 11-year-old. The former isn’t able to have an opinion on anything much more complicated than jellybeans. The latter should be able to comprehend wanting others to not experience what he just did.

And this is good…

Image: JesusCamp.jpg

479 alexknyc  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:02:33pm

re: #454 wozzablog

couldn’t agree more…

[Video]

I find that repulsive too.

Were you thinking I wouldn’t because of the politics involved?

480 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:03:00pm

re: #469 drcordell

Bit of a difference between a 4-year-old and an 11-year-old. The former isn’t able to have an opinion on anything much more complicated than jellybeans. The latter should be able to comprehend wanting others to not experience what he just did.

ANd these kids are not 4… no problem with this?

Image: pal%20children%20w%20AK46%20rifles.jpg

481 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:03:49pm

re: #426 iceweasel

Another Dem plot to make the GOP look bad. I blame Bush./

It’s all a part of the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy™ working in concert with “BHO” and the “MFM” for the eventual Communist-Mooslim-Secular-Progressive takeover the United States!!11!!!!!!!

/

482 Why I Never!  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:03:55pm

So, Malkin’s comments about Tiffany Owens were even worse:

Malkin also suggested there were other programs that could have helped Tifanny Owens, adding, “It’s not clear that additional doctors’ visits in the subsequent months would have prevented her death.”

Thank you Dr. Malkin. Take two aspirin and shut up.

Aside from these privileged idiots constantly insisting that there is no way people could possibly die because they can’t get health care, the idea that they both believe that “well, she would have died anyway” is some kind of an excuse is unbelievable. Recall that these people were all beside themselves at the suggestion that the brain dead Terry Schiavo would be allowed to die as she herself had wished. But this young 27 year old mother with pulmonary hypertension was just destined to die from her disease, so nobody can be expected to have any compassion for her plight. They are morally incomprehensible.

Sing it, Digby! Go, go!

Meanwhile, the disabled man who sat quietly while disgusting pigs screamed in his face in that video that repulsed decent people everywhere, speaks:

483 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:03:59pm

re: #474 Walter L. Newton

Walter, do you seriously see no difference in an eleven year old who’s untreated mother died of a treatable condition due to lack of insurance speaking about his mother’s death, and children that are obviously too young to ever had to decide about whether to abort a baby or not being at a pro-life rally?

Really?

484 recusancy  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:04:38pm

re: #464 Walter L. Newton

You have no problem with children speaking out, right?

It’s a Beckian argument that Stewart hit on last night (video in the last thread). You’re taking a position and stretching it to its most extreme end to try to knock it down.

485 cliffster  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:04:59pm

re: #480 Walter L. Newton

hehe, pretty harsh

486 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:05:33pm

re: #475 blueraven

You are trying to say I think that is ok? fuck you Walter.

Be nice… you have no problem with an 11 year old speaking out, good. Do you have any problems with the kids at Jesus Camp Speaking out, how about children carry signs at pro-life rallies, maybe grown children in the middle east demonstrating with rifles and weapons.

I think it is child abuse to use children in any of these ways for politics or religiostics (tm).

487 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:05:43pm

re: #479 alexknyc

nope. just wasn’t sure you’d seen it.

488 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:06:43pm

re: #482 iceweasel

So, Malkin’s comments about Tiffany Owens were even worse:

Sing it, Digby! Go, go!

Meanwhile, the disabled man who sat quietly while disgusting pigs screamed in his face in that video that repulsed decent people everywhere, speaks:

[Video]

Yep, same crowd that were outrageously outraged about Rahm Emanuel using the word “retarded” in a private conversation thinks it was OK to actively harass and ridicule a man with Parkinson’s disease who was harassed in large part because of his chronic ailment.

489 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:07:04pm

re: #486 Walter L. Newton

So at what age do you feel that it’s okay to let children into political discourse?

Do you likewise feel that it is grossly unacceptable for someone to attempt to profit off of the mentally incompetent or those who are in mental institutions, to attempt to speak for them and have their story heard?

490 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:07:09pm

re: #483 Obdicut

Walter, do you seriously see no difference in an eleven year old who’s untreated mother died of a treatable condition due to lack of insurance speaking about his mother’s death, and children that are obviously too young to ever had to decide about whether to abort a baby or not being at a pro-life rally?

Really?

I see no difference in exposing any kid, using any kid, at that age, to publicly represent any political or religious position. It’s child abuse.

491 shiplord kirel  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:07:22pm

re: #459 ArchangelMichael

I’m getting really tired of idiots (and they are legion on the left and the right) who say this:

Because it’s not true. Hitler never won a single election. He was appointed to every government position he was in. People need to crack a fucking history book.

Appointed you say? JUST LIKE ERIC HOLDER AND THE OBAMA CZARS!
(cue ominous music)

492 keloyd  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:08:18pm

re: #467 HappyWarrior

I agree entirely on certain elements glamorizing the “Gone With The Wind” fantasy. Please no one here take any of my comments as a dog whistle for more than the meaning of my actual words. Also, don’t ever let the slave states fighting with the North off the hook.

Nuance and shades of gray on the Internet is hard!

Now that I have said my peace on slavery AND Nixon, time for me to get back to work and stop goofing off.

later taters.

493 recusancy  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:08:18pm

re: #486 Walter L. Newton

Be nice… you have no problem with an 11 year old speaking out, good. Do you have any problems with the kids at Jesus Camp Speaking out, how about children carry signs at pro-life rallies, maybe grown children in the middle east demonstrating with rifles and weapons.

I think it is child abuse to use children in any of these ways for politics or religiostics (tm).

What about children in corporate tv commercials and ads? Why don’t we regulate the hell out of children so they can not be seen nor heard unless they sign a consent form and are given a psychological test? Jesus man.

494 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:08:32pm

The other thing is the Nazis never had anywhere near the majority the Democrats have. Oh and unlike the Nazis the Democrats haven’t banned any opposition parties but Broun can have his martyr complex and vote on important legislation in Congress which is his right.

495 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:08:43pm

re: #489 Obdicut


[snip]
Do you likewise feel that it is grossly unacceptable for someone to attempt to profit off of the mentally incompetent or those who are in mental institutions, to attempt to speak for them and have their story heard?

Two questions, two different questions, who/what are you referring to above? Careful, because if you are going where I think you are going, you are fixing to look really stupid.

496 blueraven  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:09:03pm

re: #486 Walter L. Newton

Be nice… you have no problem with an 11 year old speaking out, good. Do you have any problems with the kids at Jesus Camp Speaking out, how about children carry signs at pro-life rallies, maybe grown children in the middle east demonstrating with rifles and weapons.

I think it is child abuse to use children in any of these ways for politics or religiostics (tm).

I will not be cross examined by you. I said what I said about a particular situation. Your sick extrapolations are your own.

497 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:09:05pm

re: #491 shiplord kirel

Appointed you say? JUST LIKE ERIC HOLDER AND THE OBAMA CZARS!
(cue ominous music)

Song of the Volga Music… fade to black and cue in some banjo music followed with a rebuttal by Bobby Jindal Glenn Beck on the blackboard.

498 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:09:41pm

re: #497 Gus 802

Song of the Volga Music Boatmen… fade to black and cue in some banjo music followed with a rebuttal by Bobby Jindal Glenn Beck on the blackboard.

Boatmen not Music. PIMF

499 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:09:42pm

re: #490 Walter L. Newton

I see no difference in exposing any kid, using any kid, at that age, to publicly represent any political or religious position. It’s child abuse.

I don’t know if it goes as far as abuse - that depends on facts that simply aren’t in evidence here.

But it certainly is smarmy on the part of those promoting such appearances.

500 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:10:14pm

re: #493 recusancy

What about children in corporate tv commercials and ads? Why don’t we regulate the hell out of children so they can not be seen nor heard unless they sign a consent form and are given a psychological test? Jesus man.

All I asked was do you have any problem with the Jesus Camp kids, the pro-life protesting kids, the kids who speak in tongues on blog videos, any of the kids we’ve seen being used for political or religios purposes.

I didn’t say I had any problem with it, did I? Do you.

501 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:10:17pm

re: #492 keloyd

I agree entirely on certain elements glamorizing the “Gone With The Wind” fantasy. Please no one here take any of my comments as a dog whistle for more than the meaning of my actual words. Also, don’t ever let the slave states fighting with the North off the hook.

Nuance and shades of gray on the Internet is hard!

Now that I have said my peace on slavery AND Nixon, time for me to get back to work and stop goofing off.

later taters.


All good, fair enough. And you’re right about the slave states fighting with the north. A lot of people forget that the Emancipation only banned slavery in those states and territories alligned with the Confederacy.

502 cliffster  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:10:50pm

If we really want to fix up health insurance, we should talk to a real man of genius. One like this guy.

503 shiplord kirel  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:11:31pm

At this juncture, I would like to thank Rush Limbaugh for coining, or at least popularizing, the term “nutburger.” It is one of the most useful things he ever came up with, especially when applied to his followers.

504 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:11:34pm

Ok kids.

It’s date night.

catcha tomorrow.

505 Stanley Sea  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:11:43pm

The Senate passed version and the reconciliation bill just released - side by side comparision

[Link: hcr.propublica.org…]

506 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:11:50pm

re: #495 Walter L. Newton

I’m asking if you feel that people who advocate for those who are mentally incompetent or in mental institutions are also disgusting. I happen to do that, and even worse, I often do it for children who are in mental institutions. Hell, I brought one committed child to a board meeting the other day so that he could speak for himself.

Am I disgusting? I’m not just using children to make a political point, I’m using a child that’s been deemed worthy of institutionalization to do it.

So how disgusting am I, Walter, for having that child talk about the conditions in his hospital?

507 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:12:03pm

re: #499 SixDegrees

I don’t know if it goes as far as abuse - that depends on facts that simply aren’t in evidence here.

But it certainly is smarmy on the part of those promoting such appearances.

I wasn’t suggesting it’s child abuse. I was actually asking if it was. I should have worded that last sentence better.

I will restate… is it child abuse to use children in religious and political events… being used to making a point, such as pro-life, anti-Israel etc.

508 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:12:30pm

re: #496 blueraven

I will not be cross examined by you. I said what I said about a particular situation. Your sick extrapolations are your own.

Then don’t ask me any questions and I won’t respond. Tough.

509 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:13:04pm

re: #496 blueraven

I will not be cross examined by you. I said what I said about a particular situation. Your sick extrapolations are your own.

I think Walter raises a valid point: is the use of children as spokespersons (or props, depending on your lights) always appropriate, never appropriate, or only appropriate when you happen to agree with the position being promoted?

510 recusancy  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:13:29pm

re: #500 Walter L. Newton

All I asked was do you have any problem with the Jesus Camp kids, the pro-life protesting kids, the kids who speak in tongues on blog videos, any of the kids we’ve seen being used for political or religios purposes.

I didn’t say I had any problem with it, did I? Do you.

There’s no way that you believe what you’re saying. This just shouldn’t be difficult for a normal human being to understand. You’re arguing for arguments sake. Or you’re a psychopath.

People can raise their kids how they want as long as it doesn’t hurt anybody else and doesn’t hurt the kid. Hamas kids with AK’s are not the same as a kid advocating to enact a government policy that possibly would have kept his mother in his life longer then she was.

511 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:13:33pm

re: #506 Obdicut

I’m asking if you feel that people who advocate for those who are mentally incompetent or in mental institutions are also disgusting. I happen to do that, and even worse, I often do it for children who are in mental institutions. Hell, I brought one committed child to a board meeting the other day so that he could speak for himself.

Am I disgusting? I’m not just using children to make a political point, I’m using a child that’s been deemed worthy of institutionalization to do it.

So how disgusting am I, Walter, for having that child talk about the conditions in his hospital?

You must not be reading my comments. I have no problem with using kids like this. I’m just curious what others here think about it.

512 keloyd  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:13:55pm

re: #509 SixDegrees

I;ll vote for it always being corny and transparent.

513 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:14:15pm

In other news. Drudge is linking to an article at the Washington Times with the title of “Impeach?” or “KUHNER: Impeach the president? The ‘Slaughter Solution’ would violate the Constitution.” Of course the GOP used this process over a 100 times in the past

514 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:14:19pm

re: #384 Walter L. Newton

ANYONE CAN ANSWER.

On the “submit a link” on the front page, if I try to submit a link to the Jpost, it won’t take it… say “not a valid URL.”

What?

The new JPost format utterly sucks. Also, they are now charging money for “premium talkbacks.” WTF??

515 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:14:44pm

re: #510 recusancy

There’s no way that you believe what you’re saying. This just shouldn’t be difficult for a normal human being to understand. You’re arguing for arguments sake. Or you’re a psychopath.

People can raise their kids how they want as long as it doesn’t hurt anybody else and doesn’t hurt the kid. Hamas kids with AK’s are not the same as a kid advocating to enact a government policy that possibly would have kept his mother in his life longer then she was.

You have any problem with children carrying banners at pro-life rallies? And your cheap remarks are below you… I think.

516 blueraven  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:15:04pm

re: #508 Walter L. Newton

Then don’t ask me any questions and I won’t respond. Tough.

You started this shit by questioning me. I don’t have a problem with not asking you anything. The end.

517 cliffster  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:15:14pm

re: #513 Gus 802

In other news. Drudge is linking to an article at the Washington Times with the title of “Impeach?” or “KUHNER: Impeach the president? The ‘Slaughter Solution’ would violate the Constitution.” Of course the GOP used this process over a 100 times in the past

tu quoque?

518 Lidane  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:15:25pm

re: #513 Gus 802

In other news. Drudge is linking to an article at the Washington Times with the title of “Impeach?” or “KUHNER: Impeach the president? The ‘Slaughter Solution’ would violate the Constitution.” Of course the GOP used this process over a 100 times in the past

It’s okay if you’re a Republican. If you’re a Democrat, it’s an impeachable offense.

519 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:15:34pm

re: #511 Walter L. Newton

You have no problem using kids like this? You just said you though it was child abuse.

re: #490 Walter L. Newton

I see no difference in exposing any kid, using any kid, at that age, to publicly represent any political or religious position. It’s child abuse.

How do you reconcile those two statements?

520 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:15:42pm

re: #517 cliffster

tu quoque?

Gladly.

521 recusancy  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:15:56pm

re: #515 Walter L. Newton

You have any problem with children carrying banners at pro-life rallies?

No.

522 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:16:37pm

re: #519 Obdicut

You have no problem using kids like this? You just said you though it was child abuse.

re: #490 Walter L. Newton

How do you reconcile those two statements?

Please see this comment…

re: #507 Walter L. Newton

I wasn’t suggesting it’s child abuse. I was actually asking if it was. I should have worded that last sentence better.

I will restate… is it child abuse to use children in religious and political events… being used to making a point, such as pro-life, anti-Israel etc.

523 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:17:00pm

Correct me if I am wrong but didn’t the Senate pass the Bush tax cuts with Cheney as the tie breaker? And as mentioned the Republicans used reconciliation too. I guess it’s different because that Commie Socialist Muslim Peacenik Obama is in power eh.

524 albusteve  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:17:19pm

kids carrying banners at pro abortion rally’s would be an ironic hoot…maybe there is a picture!

525 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:17:20pm

re: #517 cliffster

tu quoque?

or a double standard…

526 cliffster  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:17:27pm

Quite the proggy echo chamber we have here right now. Probably be just the opposite this evening. Hmm, Friday night. Proves that conservatives have no life. Off to work out. Prepare for anger and vitriol this weekend.

527 alexknyc  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:17:28pm

re: #521 recusancy

No.

+1 for consistency.

I may not agree with you but I can appreciate someone with consistency of opinion regardless of whether you agree with the cause.

528 recusancy  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:17:45pm

re: #523 HappyWarrior

Correct me if I am wrong but didn’t the Senate pass the Bush tax cuts with Cheney as the tie breaker? And as mentioned the Republicans used reconciliation too. I guess it’s different because that Commie Socialist Muslim Peacenik Obama is in power eh.

You are correct. On both accounts.

529 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:17:59pm

re: #525 Varek Raith

or a double standard…

But this is different!1!11!!

530 HoosierHoops  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:18:02pm

re: #524 albusteve

kids carrying banners at pro abortion rally’s would be an ironic hoot…maybe there is a picture!

Hi new grandpa!
How does it feel bro?

531 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:19:13pm

re: #401 drcordell

So it’s completely irrelevant to the health care debate in this country that an 11-year old boy has a dead mother because she lacked health insurance?

It’s relevent. These stories, anecdotal as they may be, are damn hard to counter.

If the wingnut pundits were better people, they would figure out how to acknowledge this child’s loss, and his mother’s suffering, while still insisting that a ‘different’ approach would be better.

Because they’re not, they don’t.

532 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:19:20pm

re: #522 Walter L. Newton

I see. Despite the fact that you said

re: #486 Walter L. Newton

I think it is child abuse to use children in any of these ways for politics or religiostics (tm).

And:

I see no difference in exposing any kid, using any kid, at that age, to publicly represent any political or religious position. It’s child abuse.

You are now claiming you were just asking if it was, not saying it was.

Though you said it was, twice, you were really just asking.

533 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:19:47pm

re: #524 albusteve

kids carrying banners at pro abortion rally’s would be an ironic hoot…maybe there is a picture!

Quite the hoot. Too bad there’s no such thing as a “pro abortion rally”.

534 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:20:11pm

re: #435 keloyd

I think he means when a section of the country that was under the economic thumb of the North tried to leave the union, as was it’s right under the Constitution, being a living, breathing document, then was crushed by the North, including 4 slave states, then we’re told they were the good guys 6 generations later, even though the Emancipation Proclamation only outlawed slavery in the rebelling states, even tho de facto, the union army enslaved many runaways.

Also, my maternal grandmother knew people who were witnesses to Sherman’s war crimes. You don’t need 6 degrees like Kevin BAcon for this one, I can get there in 2.

Devil his due - “states’ rights” for the last 70 years has been a dog whistle for some pretty vile stuff.

What’s your point?

535 cliffster  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:20:26pm

re: #525 Varek Raith

or a double standard…

Sure. Just amused at how “tu quoque” was thrown around hysterically for awhile. As for double standard, if you are going to get worked up every time a politician has double standards, your head will explode. Mine almost did. Felt the fissure lines all along my skull. Fortunately I had a bottle of Fireman’s Four ale sitting nearby.

536 Lidane  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:20:34pm

re: #524 albusteve

kids carrying banners at pro abortion rally’s would be an ironic hoot…maybe there is a picture!

How about kids carrying signs protesting adoption?

537 albusteve  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:20:47pm

re: #530 HoosierHoops

Hi new grandpa!
How does it feel bro?

it feels like I have some new responsibilities….but I’m groovin

538 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:21:10pm

re: #535 cliffster

Sure. Just amused at how “tu quoque” was thrown around hysterically for awhile. As for double standard, if you are going to get worked up every time a politician has double standards, your head will explode. Mine almost did. Felt the fissure lines all along my skull. Fortunately I had a bottle of Fireman’s Four ale sitting nearby.

Heh, the double standard is any politicians specialty!

539 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:21:54pm

re: #531 SanFranciscoZionist

It’s relevent. These stories, anecdotal as they may be, are damn hard to counter.

Well, yes - that’s the whole point of using children as spokespeople. Any attempt at all to counter them is easily cast as “You’re just a big meany, beating up on a little kid!”

Why do you think the kid was spotlighted, and not the kid’s grandmother, who is apparently just as outspoken on this issue and is, as an adult, more articulate?

540 Why I Never!  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:22:55pm

re: #530 HoosierHoops

Hi new grandpa!
How does it feel bro?

Hey hoops— just emailed you Cato’s #. *smooch*

541 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:23:40pm

re: #532 Obdicut

I see. Despite the fact that you said

re: #486 Walter L. Newton

You are now claiming you were just asking if it was, not saying it was.

Though you said it was, twice, you were really just asking.

You point made, but I was trying to make a point and I was trying to be argumentative and sarcastic. I will clarify. I don’t find it any problem to use children for political or religious purposes.

But, I have seen a lot of opposition to children being used to make religious statements and pro-life statements and other right sided positions.

So, I was trying to find out where the “breaking point” is between the issues and what people consider appropriate in regards to children and these sorts of things.

I hope that clear up my statements.

542 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:24:15pm

re: #526 cliffster

Quite the proggy echo chamber we have here right now. Probably be just the opposite this evening. Hmm, Friday night. Proves that conservatives have no life. Off to work out. Prepare for anger and vitriol this weekend.

With that logic, it doesn’t seem like anyone was working here ever. Does it? I mean, you’re here aren’t you?

543 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:24:30pm

re: #462 Walter L. Newton

Is this ok too…

Children protesting at pro-life rallies…

[Link: www.prolife.com…]

I disagree with them, but I have no problem with children being at demos.

544 Why I Never!  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:24:35pm

re: #539 SixDegrees


Why do you think the kid was spotlighted, and not the kid’s grandmother, who is apparently just as outspoken on this issue and is, as an adult, more articulate?

Just a dem plot to make the wingnuts look bad.

Just like when Malkin stalked 12 yr old Graeme Frost and his family over S-Chip.

Trickse, trickse dems!

545 keloyd  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:25:04pm

re: #534 Alouette

What’s your point?

My point was you can be against “states’ rights” as a dog whistle AND correct others when they mischaracterize the war that ended American slavery.

Mostly I just wanted to nitpick and goof off on the internet, to be honest.

546 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:25:22pm

re: #526 cliffster

Pfft, I no progressive.
A sane libertarian, I am
:P

547 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:25:24pm

re: #464 Walter L. Newton

You have no problem with children speaking out, right?

No. I do have a problem with people of any age being suicide bombers, though.

548 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:25:27pm

re: #543 SanFranciscoZionist

I disagree with them, but I have no problem with children being at demos.

Good.

549 cliffster  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:25:35pm

re: #542 Gus 802

With that logic, it doesn’t seem like anyone was working here ever. Does it? I mean, you’re here aren’t you?

Eh? Me saying conservatives have no life implies that nobody here has a job? That’s some fancy dot-connecting you’re using there.

550 albusteve  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:26:17pm

re: #542 Gus 802

With that logic, it doesn’t seem like anyone was working here ever. Does it? I mean, you’re here aren’t you?

I work three day jobs, twice a night…lot of us here stretched to the bone

551 recusancy  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:26:21pm

re: #547 SanFranciscoZionist

No. I do have a problem with people of any age being suicide bombers, though.

And it’s, like, totally the same thing, right? ///

552 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:26:40pm

re: #541 Walter L. Newton

You point made, but I was trying to make a point and I was trying to be argumentative and sarcastic. I will clarify. I don’t find it any problem to use children for political or religious purposes.

You may find that saying the exact opposite of your opinion with absolutely no hit that you’re being ‘sarcastic’ leads to people thinking that you hold that position. you know, because you’re saying it’s your position. When it has the effect of calling me a goddamn child abuser— as well as anyone else that’s ever given a child a voice in the political process— you can expect people to tell you to shove it.

I used a nine year old autistic boy to talk about conditions in the hospital/school he lives in. I had him speak about his experiences. I did so in order to make a political point.

Do you consider that ‘child abuse’? Do you think it was inappropriate for me to expose the lawmakers who decide things that affect this child to the child’s voice?

553 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:26:42pm

re: #546 Varek Raith

Pfft, I no progressive.
A sane libertarian, I am
:P

…who can’t punctuate and use proper grammar, apparently…

554 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:26:48pm

re: #528 recusancy

You are correct. On both accounts.

I figured as much. The Republican led Congress had no problem passing legislation that was heavily divided on party lines and yet they’re acting shocked that the Dems are trying to do the same. A majority doing what a majority is supposed to do. What a concept. I readily admit that both sides are equally hypocritical when it comes to this but it’s such a stupid argument that “no one” wants this.

555 cliffster  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:27:35pm

re: #546 Varek Raith

Pfft, I no progressive.
A sane libertarian, I am
:P

Good for you. I rather think of myself that way too.

556 HoosierHoops  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:28:01pm

re: #540 iceweasel

Hey hoops— just emailed you Cato’s #. *smooch*

Thanks Ice..Got it..
Hope today finds you well…
Cato..I’ll call you Saturday…

557 albusteve  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:28:25pm

exposing children to American politics is abusive…like teaching them to steal

558 Lidane  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:28:34pm

re: #553 Varek Raith

…who can’t punctuate and use proper grammar, apparently…

Pfft. Grammar and punctuation are overrated. It’s the internet. ;)

559 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:29:30pm

re: #558 Lidane

Pfft. Grammar and punctuation are overrated. It’s the internet. ;)

Good point.
:)

560 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:30:30pm

re: #507 Walter L. Newton

I wasn’t suggesting it’s child abuse. I was actually asking if it was. I should have worded that last sentence better.

I will restate… is it child abuse to use children in religious and political events… being used to making a point, such as pro-life, anti-Israel etc.

Not by me.

561 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:30:45pm

re: #549 cliffster

Eh? Me saying conservatives have no life implies that nobody here has a job? That’s some fancy dot-connecting you’re using there.

Well, my E-meter is broken so perhaps my translation was off. Sure looked like snark to me in that “all the progs” are here in the middle of the afternoon but it will be “different when the conservatives return this evening.”

Quite the proggy echo chamber we have here right now. Probably be just the opposite this evening. Hmm, Friday night. Proves that conservatives have no life. Off to work out. Prepare for anger and vitriol this weekend.

562 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:32:34pm

re: #524 albusteve

kids carrying banners at pro abortion rally’s would be an ironic hoot…maybe there is a picture!

I don’t know as I’ve ever seen a ‘pro-abortion rally’, but many of my friends have taken their children to pro-choice events, and at least one attended her first pro-choice demonstration while still in the womb.

563 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:32:47pm

re: #552 Obdicut

You may find that saying the exact opposite of your opinion with absolutely no hit that you’re being ‘sarcastic’ leads to people thinking that you hold that position. you know, because you’re saying it’s your position. When it has the effect of calling me a goddamn child abuser— as well as anyone else that’s ever given a child a voice in the political process— you can expect people to tell you to shove it.

I used a nine year old autistic boy to talk about conditions in the hospital/school he lives in. I had him speak about his experiences. I did so in order to make a political point.

Do you consider that ‘child abuse’? Do you think it was inappropriate for me to expose the lawmakers who decide things that affect this child to the child’s voice?

No…

(and I don’t need a lecture from you on who I should or should not debate)… but anyway… no, I have no problem with that at all. Heck, as you know I worked there for 3 months at ARC, and everyone one of our large trucks, used for picking up used items all over town, 60 trucks statewide, have pictures of various handicapped children on them. No, I think it speaks volumes to the needs of these children.

Line I said above, I was certainly trying to make a point, since I have seen opposition to this use of children in regards to right sided positions such as children and religious rallies, children at pro-life rallies and so on.

So, I was just trying to get a read from the others here.

564 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:34:52pm

re: #539 SixDegrees

Well, yes - that’s the whole point of using children as spokespeople. Any attempt at all to counter them is easily cast as “You’re just a big meany, beating up on a little kid!”

Why do you think the kid was spotlighted, and not the kid’s grandmother, who is apparently just as outspoken on this issue and is, as an adult, more articulate?

I would be just as horrified if they’d said any of that callous crap to the child’s grandmother.

565 cliffster  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:35:15pm

re: #561 Gus 802

ha! Nope, not what I was saying at all. Just that there’ll probably be more conservatives around tonight, hence the no-life comment.

566 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:35:36pm

re: #563 Walter L. Newton

God, Walter, your ego is amazing. You repeatedly state that something is child abuse, and when called on it, admit that you don’t really think that it is and were just asking questions, and were just trying to make a point.

That’s the lame, Limbaugh-level ‘just satire’ defense and it stinks.

567 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:37:04pm

re: #564 SanFranciscoZionist

I would be just as horrified if they’d said any of that callous crap to the child’s grandmother.

Yep it would be spitting on a mother who lost her daughter. It’s always tragic for a parent to outlive their child. Happened with my grandparents in regards to my uncle sadly. As for kids going to pro life and pro choice rallies, sure why not though I think that’s a little different since this kid is speaking on an issue that affected him. My problem is that Limbaugh, Malkin, and Beck went after him in a douchey sort of way. If they had disagreed with him civilly I’d feel different but civility is something those three lack.

568 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:37:24pm

re: #565 cliffster

ha! Nope, not what I was saying at all. Just that there’ll probably be more conservatives around tonight, hence the no-life comment.

OK I’ll drop it.

569 Why I Never!  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:37:30pm

re: #564 SanFranciscoZionist

I would be just as horrified if they’d said any of that callous crap to the child’s grandmother.

If she had spoken, we know perfectly well that nutters like Malkin and Rush would likewise have said it was all just a Dem ploy to gain sympathy, and they would have mocked her as well. Both of them have a history of such behaviour.

570 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:39:39pm

re: #569 iceweasel

If she had spoken, we know perfectly well that nutters like Malkin and Rush would likewise have said it was all just a Dem ploy to gain sympathy, and they would have mocked her as well. Both of them have a history of such behaviour.

Malkin would also come back with a real estate appraisal of the mother’s home including a description of the furniture and kitchen counter tops.

571 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:39:50pm

re: #566 Obdicut

God, Walter, your ego is amazing. You repeatedly state that something is child abuse, and when called on it, admit that you don’t really think that it is and were just asking questions, and were just trying to make a point.

That’s the lame, Limbaugh-level ‘just satire’ defense and it stinks.

It’s called making a correction.. and if you can’t accept that I was mistaken in the way I worded it, or played it.. then tough shit. I don’t need you approval.

572 Randall Gross  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 2:53:20pm

Where’s the line on child abuse?
When you start teaching hate and justification for violence towards other people, ala Hamas.

Where’s the line on children at political Demos and Rallies?
I think the less of parents who do that to their children simply because at “fervent” events there isn’t real prediction as to what the “mob” might do. It’s the same reason you shouldn’t take young children to Who concerts.

I would also say it’s every parent’s right to be stupid up to a point, and that it would be proto fascist to suggest outlawing or prohibiting children at political demos.

573 SixDegrees  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 3:03:18pm

re: #564 SanFranciscoZionist

I would be just as horrified if they’d said any of that callous crap to the child’s grandmother.

Rightly so. But the kid wasn’t chosen because of what he had to say - he was chosen because, as a kid, he’s unimpeachable no matter what the message may be.

There’s a reason the term “poster child” carries a negative connotation.

574 Randall Gross  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 3:12:56pm

ELP

575 lostlakehiker  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 3:30:36pm

re: #249 swamprat

Not necessarily. There are defects with might rightfully need to be addressed. I’m not talking about the sexually unsure or “confused”. I mean real medical conditions.

Well, agreed. People who are born with partial sets of both equipments need medical help, for instance.

576 rightsideup  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 4:46:23pm

One doctor’s take on the ‘healthcare’ bill: [Link: www.paleonu.com…] .

What is going on here is more than about healthcare.

577 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 4:52:23pm

re: #576 rightsideup

Wow. He’s getting his ass kicked in his own comments section.

That’s sad.

578 Gus  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 5:16:39pm

re: #577 Obdicut

Wow. He’s getting his ass kicked in his own comments section.

That’s sad.

Yeah. Kurt G. Harris MD who has a side business as a paleo-nutritionist. He’s also the owner of Imaging of Door County, LLC located in Sturgeon Bay, WI.

Political contributions:

HARRIS, KURT DR.
STURGEON BAY, WI
SELF-EMPLOYED/PHYSICIAN

MCCAIN, JOHN S.
VIA JOHN MCCAIN 2008 INC.
02/14/2008 1000.00 28990642308

579 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 6:50:38pm

re: #453 keloyd

we were bad but they most definitely were NOT better.

lol for tribalism

580 GForce  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 7:09:27pm

This is a shove it up our ass and break it off bill that will destroy this country.

581 Pythagoras  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 8:41:37pm

re: #580 GForce

This is a shove it up our ass and break it off bill that will destroy this country.

Yo. Waaayyy too strong but the way this is being passed is going to be remembered.

As for the bill, the biggest problem with US health care is the high cost (driven by lawsuits.) Give me tort reform!

Is there any at all in this bill?

582 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 10:17:38pm

re: #581 Pythagoras

There is alledgedly some tort in the bill.

But i’ve linked here before - Tort is not the biggest factor in insurance premiums having rocketed in the double digists % wise.

583 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 19, 2010 10:20:57pm

re: #580 GForce

Ass.

This is just about the most scrutinised bill in history - aside from possibly Civil RIghts - is there a Bill which has been CBO scored more often through its existence than this one?.

Also, if you are going to be a trollish ass- the GOP lost the election. Obama won the election, remember?. It was in all the papers.

Obama promised HCR - including a public option.

Mcain also had a healthcare plan - which is most of Obama’s undercard - transportabillity, national coverage, some anti-trust removal.

So - in essence pally - suck it up.

584 Pythagoras  Sat, Mar 20, 2010 9:36:18pm

re: #582 wozzablog

There is alledgedly some tort in the bill.

But I’ve linked here before - Tort is not the biggest factor in insurance premiums having rocketed in the double digits % wise.

What tort reform? I’ve heard there’s some pledge to study it or something like that. That’s BS.

Even if lawsuits are less than 100% of the problem, fixing that is the only way that I know of to get something for nothing. With tort reform, everyone gains except the lawyers.


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