Whether you support this or oppose it, it is still kind of amazing that they passed it (even considering the Dem majorities). This is the third rail of politics, and they grabbed it with both hands.

If it doesn't turn out to be the "Healthpocalypse" predicted a lot of Republicans are going to look foolish

re: #1 Soap_Man

Whether you support this or oppose it, it is still kind of amazing that they passed it (even considering the Dem majorities). This is the third rail of politics, and they grabbed it with both hands.

I'll say it again. Obama is a closer and Nancy gets shit done.

Meanwhile at #TCOT they are going berserk

Wow. Stupak did come through on that speech.

If it makes you feel better Charles...

AAAhhhahahahahahhhggghhh.

Now the votes on The Fixes begin.
Get the popcorn...

re: #4 Thanos

"So this is how liberty dies. To thunderous applause." -Sen. Padme Amidala

They're quoting Star Wars. Heh.

Good news!

re: #8 Killgore Trout

They're quoting Star Wars. Heh.

ROFL...

re: #8 Killgore Trout

They're quoting Star Wars. Heh.

This is how the sanity ends, not with a bang but a twitter...

re: #9 Gus 802
Yep, if you're a Republican candidate running this Nov.

What is going on now is just delay, delay, delay. The whole exercise is childish and pointless. It's over. Done.

Didn't the Republicans announce some genius plan to stop this with procedural objections? Fail.

re: #11 Thanos

This is how the sanity ends, not with a bang but a twitter...

Lol

re: #12 tradewind

Yep, if you're a Republican candidate running this Nov.

Yes, that's the meme we'll be hearing from now forward.

re: #2 Thanos

If it doesn't turn out to be the "Healthpocalypse" predicted a lot of Republicans are going to look foolish

They ramped this up too high. People will notice that their doctor hasn't been taken away and replaced with a socialist commissar by November.

The next hurdle is getting the Fixit bill passed in Senate, in theory only a majority of 51 needed, and they have Stupak aboard now.

re: #14 Killgore Trout

Didn't the Republicans announce some genius plan to stop this with procedural objections? Fail.

Yes... in COngress... with the "fix bill" some how. That's still to come.

Good, can we now get back to arguing about immigration?

Somewhere there is a group of health insurance executives smiling. They get millions of gov't mandated new customers and coverage requirements that provide cover for raising premiums. And all they had to do was feign strident opposition to the bill for a couple months.

re: #14 Killgore Trout

Didn't the Republicans announce some genius plan to stop this with procedural objections? Fail.

Yeah Drudge was all over that this morn...

99 Year Blues

I think this is just the first step towards single payer, as this bill isn't going to do anything to fix the broken business model of health insurance. It's just going to make it worse, and then we will hit the real crisis and then there will be no other option.

re: #14 Killgore Trout

Didn't the Republicans announce some genius plan to stop this with procedural objections? Fail.

That was the bit that Todd "televangelist hair" Tiahrt played.

Yall hear this? Someone yelled from the Republican side "baby killer" when Stupak was speaking.

re: #2 Thanos
Since they'll be repealing it when they retake the House and Senate, the damage will be minimal.
They'll dismantle the wreck and build over with a foundation of of pre-existing condition coverage and portability. The sixteen thousand new IRS employees will have to wait.

Apparently some Republican yelled "baby killer" when Stupek was talking. This is according to CNN.

Hmm, I wouldn't call a bill declaring that I have to purchase health insurance, and spelling out which coverages it has to have (more coverages than I would like) "good news."

I can't believe we have at least 3 more years of this crap... I'm hoping midterms will at least get some sensible people in office, if possible.

I'm all for making healthcare affordable, but there has to be a way that costs less than $1 trillion over ten years, and much more in the future. (It'll be more - mark my words. I've read that the cost of Medicare was grossly understated by the wonderful CBO)

re: #17 SanFranciscoZionist
People will notice that there are not nearly enough doctors to fill this Rx... and that many of the top specialists have just packed it in.

And the motion to recommit fails!

re: #27 tradewind

Ha, good luck with that. Republicans aren't going to get supermajorities, there's just no way, and they'll need them to avoid a veto.

I wish I was a HCR lawsuit lawyer...$$$

Can we all agree America is better off if Rush goes to Costa Rica?

re: #28 Soap_Man
ZOMG.
That right there is reason enough to repeal the free speech thang.//

It will never get overturned...because the only thing the Republicans on the House floor are yelping about right now in the aftermath of this federal monstrosity is ...abortion...pfff.

...but the Republican party is going to reap the political rewards nonetheless in November...yet so long as they are focused on the periphery issues of small interest groups instead of the core issues, they'll be feckless to make this right.

re: #24 Qabal

I think this is just the first step towards single payer, as this bill isn't going to do anything to fix the broken business model of health insurance. It's just going to make it worse, and then we will hit the real crisis and then there will be no other option.

Ding!
Ding!
Ding!
Ding!

We have a winner!

(I'm for single payer btw)

re: #26 Stanley Sea

Yall hear this? Someone yelled from the Republican side "baby killer" when Stupak was speaking.

re: #28 Soap_Man

Apparently some Republican yelled "baby killer" when Stupek was talking. This is according to CNN.

Oh, yeah...way to get their point across...
*rolls eyes*

re: #30 tradewind

People will notice that there are not nearly enough doctors to fill this Rx... and that many of the top specialists have just packed it in.

Yeah. I'm betting you're mistaken on that one.

re: #34 ozbloke

Can we all agree America is better off if Rush goes to Costa Rica?

I wanna go too!

re: #28 Soap_Man

Apparently some Republican yelled "baby killer" when Stupek was talking. This is according to CNN.

Hrmm.. Televangelist hair since he's tight with C st and the Bloody Randall Terry Crowd here in KS?

Dunno, hopefully someone will have it on tape.

I'm just a dumb Canuck with a form of government subsidized Healthcare already. I don't understand how they managed to create a bill without a PUBLIC OPTION and without TORT reform. But hey, WTHDIK.

re: #34 ozbloke
Only if he takes Olby and Ed with him...

re: #34 ozbloke

Can we all agree America is better off if Rush goes to Costa Rica?

I'd vote for that.

Costa Rica may have some objections.

Or, hell, maybe not.

re: #28 Soap_Man

Apparently some Republican yelled "baby killer" when Stupek was talking. This is according to CNN.

...and therefore all opponents of this bill are nut jobs.

re: #4 Thanos

Meanwhile at #TCOT they are going berserk

For Cato..

"Obama is LITERALLY Lenin!"

re: #42 yenta-fada

WTHDIK I love that acronym!

re: #41 Thanos

Hrmm.. Televangelist hair since he's tight with C st and the Bloody Randall Terry Crowd here in KS?

Dunno, hopefully someone will have it on tape.

CNN said they are pretty sure who said it but won't yet say until they can confirm it.

I feel bad for Costa Rica if he moves there. Can't he just move to Antarctica? And shouting baby killer how classy.

re: #32 Qabal
The shellshock in Dem circles will be stunning. Even democratic pollsters are predicting doom.

re: #45 MPH

...and therefore all opponents of this bill are nut jobs.

How'd ya plot that course???

re: #45 MPH

...and therefore all opponents of this bill are nut jobs.

He didn't say that. But face it, it's pretty damn tacky.

re: #34 ozbloke

Can we all agree America is better off if Rush goes to Costa Rica?

haha!...no...eliminate the opposition?...now if BO packs it in and heads for Cuba, I'd be all for it...good riddance

re: #27 tradewind

if the R's even remember how to make policy...oh, yeah, they have those nifty lobbyists to write their bills.

re: #45 MPH

...and therefore all opponents of this bill are nut jobs.

Ummm, not what I said. Or even implied.

re: #42 yenta-fada
And yet your PM couldn't find a heart surgeon in country?

re: #40 Killgore Trout

I wanna go too!

Mmm. Gilligan's Isle?

re: #2 Thanos

If it doesn't turn out to be the "Healthpocalypse" predicted a lot of Republicans are going to look foolish

We'll see in a generation, or less.

re: #50 tradewind

The shellshock in Dem circles will be stunning. Even democratic pollsters are predicting doom.

Link?

re: #54 rurality
No democratic lobbyists...wasn't Obama going to ban any former or present ones from his presence?
...and there's an Easter bunny, too.

re: #51 Varek Raith

How'd ya plot that course???

Any criticism of any person on the right means:

1. ALL people on the right are guilty of any and all offenses even vaguely related to this criticism.

2. You're being horrible for not mentioning all the bad things people on the left have ever done.

///Didn't you get the memo?

re: #24 Qabal

I think this is just the first step towards single payer, as this bill isn't going to do anything to fix the broken business model of health insurance. It's just going to make it worse, and then we will hit the real crisis and then there will be no other option.

One can pray for that to be the way it works out. Single payer is what we really need.

William

Heh, so it begins...

re: #46 Jadespring

/popcorn

Watching the crazies on the right in the coming days is going to be one of my favorite spectator sports, although I hope for all our sakes it stays non-violent.

re: #59 Soap_Man
Go Google it yourself. It's not difficult to find them.

re: #59 Soap_Man

Link?

Don't look now but here comes the tired old "we lost but really won" argument.

re: #60 tradewind

Obama only dealt with compassionate lobbyists.

re: #28 Soap_Man

Apparently some Republican yelled "baby killer" when Stupek was talking. This is according to CNN.

Stupak has other things to worry about than insults from across the room.

Support surges for Stupak's re-election opponent after abortion funding deal with White House

Let's see if the stock market takes a big dive on Monday... It's going to be a lot harder for a lot of businesses to stay open and hire people from here on out. And our kids can probably say hello to 50% or greater tax rates when they're older, whether they're rich or poor - no other way to pay for all this stuff we're sending their way.

re: #61 SanFranciscoZionist

Any criticism of any person on the right means:

1. ALL people on the right are guilty of any and all offenses even vaguely related to this criticism.

2. You're being horrible for not mentioning all the bad things people on the left have ever done.

///Didn't you get the memo?

I'm saving this post, may I have permission to re-use occasionally?
(happened to me today, of course)

I may have to DVR Beck tomorrow and grab a 12-pack on the way home to watch him with.

re: #70 Stanley Sea

I'm saving this post, may I have permission to re-use occasionally?
(happened to me today, of course)

Sure, save, reprint, edit, it's yours!

This WILL make it the governments (perceived) fault when there's scarcity.

My grandmother lived in a tiny West Texas town for decades. You could visit a GP there, or a tiny ~20 bed hospital, but specialists were 80 miles away in Lubbock. This is because of rational market forces. Residents of a little town just expect that.

On a roadtrip through Canada, pols on the CBC were decrying that there were not enough ob-gyn's for women with difficult pregnancies outside of major cities. With govt health care, pregnant women with special needs have to move in with friends/family in the major cities. No one mentioned market forces or supply and demand. Instead, this was cast as a scandal. How dare the government disrespect their rural citizens, etc.

I want something like medicare for all, or the Japanese model, but I don't expect more than basic meat-and-potatoes coverage. Organ transplants, nursing homes, treating experimental, difficult cancers, that may be too much to ask.

re: #65 tradewind

Go Google it yourself. It's not difficult to find them.

You made the statement. I shouldn't have to be the one to have to back it up.

re: #62 wlewisiii

One can pray for that to be the way it works out. Single payer is what we really need.

William

Total nationalized health care is what we need. No private medical business what so ever. All government employees and everyone, from street person to the President get the exact same considerations for health care. That's the only fair and equalizing way to do it. If every man is created equal, then it should be equal.

re: #69 kahn_mann

I seriously doubt this is going to have an effect on the market next week. This passing has been pretty much a certainty for about a week. The market has probably already factored this in.

Generic vote polling at Real Clear Politics has the Republicans ahead at 1.6% (average) on a generic congressional vote.

Yeah, that's some landslide in the making.

re: #34 ozbloke

Can we all agree America is better off if Rush goes to Costa Rica?

Costa Rica? not so much.

grits teeth Congratulations to Speaker Pelosi and President Obama on a gutsy display of elemental politics.
*** *** *** ***
Although I don't expect it, I would be pleased to see this scrapped by SCOTUS, ideally not by a 5-4 vote. I would be pleased to see Obama & Democrats made to regret their behavior toward SCOTUS at the State of the Union.

I've been monitoring a few discussions tonight to see how unhinged the wingnut faction has gone tonight, and found this one on 4chan's /news/ discussion group:

You know whats sad, 4chan is more mature then freerepublic, thats a god damned disgrace.

When the Internet Hate Machine calls you out on being too over the top, that's really saying something.

Stupak and his other "pro-life" colleagues are liars. They know that an Executive Order does not override the law. The bill clearly has funds put aside for elective abortions. Tax money will be used to do away with unwanted and imperfect children no doubt. They lie to their constituents if they claim to care about that reality, because they don't. It is a disappointment to say the least. While health care reform was needed, I don't think this will lead us anywhere towards a positive, but steer us more towards decline.

re: #80 RadicalModerate

I've been monitoring a few discussions tonight to see how unhinged the wingnut faction has gone tonight, and found this one on 4chan's /news/ discussion group:

When the Internet Hate Machine calls you out on being too over the top, that's really saying something.

ROFL, it's funny cuase it's true!!!

re: #75 Walter L. Newton

That would be nice and it isn't going to happen...ever.

re: #81 Melissa in NorCal

The bill clearly has funds put aside for elective abortions. Tax money will be used to do away with unwanted and imperfect children no doubt. .

Link us regarding these funds?

re: #64 Qabal

/popcorn

Watching the crazies on the right in the coming days is going to be one of my favorite spectator sports, although I hope for all our sakes it stays non-violent.

I'm glad you can enjoy it. It makes me depressed. It makes just want to dig a hole and crawl in.

re: #75 Walter L. Newton

As you wish.

re: #56 tradewind

It was the Premier of Newfoundland, Danny Williams who went to the US for heart surgery. The health care in his province (two of my relatives work it that system) is sparse and not something I would want to experience. People who are considered too sick or too old
for certain procedures have gone to the U.S. if they could afford it. Some out of country benefits are covered in Canada, but I don't know which ones or why. Danny Williams (said Premier of Newfoundland) grossly underfunds health care even while the province receives transfer funds from the Federal Government.

re: #81 Melissa in NorCal
HUH?
I'm stumped.

re: #81 Melissa in NorCal

If I can't get my tax dollars to not pay for war, you can't get out of paying for abortions.

Here's an interactive map that shows you who voted and how : (scroll down a tad)
[Link: politics.nytimes.com...]

re: #81 Melissa in NorCal

Tax money will be used to do away with unwanted and imperfect children no doubt?

Huh?

I sure picked the wrong day to quit doing crack.

re: #87 yenta-fada
Glad we could help.

re: #89 Pepper Fox

Hi, Pepper, how are you?

re: #89 Pepper Fox

If I can't get my tax dollars to not pay for war, you can't get out of paying for abortions.

Hi, Pepper!

re: #85 Dark_Falcon

I'm glad you can enjoy it. It makes me depressed. It makes just want to dig a hole and crawl in.

You said earlier that you hoped that it would fail so you could do your Happy Dance. Don't look for sympathy after that.

re: #81 Melissa in NorCal

Stupak and his other "pro-life" colleagues are liars. They know that an Executive Order does not override the law. The bill clearly has funds put aside for elective abortions. Tax money will be used to do away with unwanted and imperfect children no doubt. They lie to their constituents if they claim to care about that reality, because they don't. It is a disappointment to say the least. While health care reform was needed, I don't think this will lead us anywhere towards a positive, but steer us more towards decline.

Can you show me section and paragraph in the bill where this is going to be the case?

re: #89 Pepper Fox

You equating killing terrorists with abortions?

re: #91 Gus 802

Tax money will be used to do away with unwanted and imperfect children no doubt?

Huh?

Had to hit the "Sarah Palin disabled child" bingo spot.

re: #91 Gus 802

Tax money will be used to do away with unwanted and imperfect children no doubt?

Huh?

Sarah Palin semi-quote.

re: #95 SanFranciscoZionist

Hey sorry for not being too active, I kind of fell out of the loop.

re: #100 Stanley Sea

Sarah Palin semi-quote.

Yeah, the eugenics BS.

re: #97 Walter L. Newton

Can you show me section and paragraph in the bill where this is going to be the case?

No, she can't, but it will be fun to see what else we're given instead, if anything.

re: #30 tradewind

And where are they all gonna go?

re: #96 recusancy

You said earlier that you hoped that it would fail so you could do your Happy Dance. Don't look for sympathy after that.

Fair enough. I lost and you won.

re: #98 NJDhockeyfan

You equating killing terrorists with abortions?

GAZE.

re: #2 Thanos

If it doesn't turn out to be the "Healthpocalypse" predicted a lot of Republicans are going to look foolish

I don't see how it can be anything else but a disaster.

It's in the numbers.

re: #80 RadicalModerate

I've been monitoring a few discussions tonight to see how unhinged the wingnut faction has gone tonight, and found this one on 4chan's /news/ discussion group:

When the Internet Hate Machine calls you out on being too over the top, that's really saying something.

Ah yeah. I can barely keep up with it. I have my next favourite comment to the one I already posted. A few are hatching a plan. It's time to get the BC and time to ask Isreal to help get it.

Genius.

Enjoy your retirement, Stupak. You bitchmade guy.

re: #98 NJDhockeyfan

Well as John Stewart put it, its $100 to get in to the zoo. You can't throw down $90 and say "I hate zebras".

re: #84 SanFranciscoZionist

Link us regarding these funds?

Proof by assertion can usually be identified by the indicator word 'clearly.'

re: #101 Pepper Fox

Hey PepperFox!

re: #105 Dark_Falcon

Fair enough. I lost and you won.

Always classy DF, but I think either we all won or we all lost. It depends on what happens when this bill goes from theory to application.

re: #77 Gus 802

Generic vote polling at Real Clear Politics has the Republicans ahead at 1.6% (average) on a generic congressional vote.

Yeah, that's some landslide in the making.

Start at the bottom of the chart and work your way up.

re: #93 tradewind

Oh. I must have forgotten to say he survived the surgery.

re: #107 researchok

And just how great again was the staus quo?

re: #85 Dark_Falcon

I'm glad you can enjoy it. It makes me depressed. It makes just want to dig a hole and crawl in.

Dude.

You get more free stuff now!

Seriously - If I were you I would go sign up at a school to learn how to do Radiology / MRI / Catscans. The pay is really good. No blood, and its in the medical industry - which just started a boom period.

re: #75 Walter L. Newton

I disagree. Everyone is created equal, but the cold, hard facts of life are that it is inherently unfair.

There will still be people deciding whether it's worth the money to provide treatment anytime anyone gets sick. And there's still nothing in the bill to force people to buy. It'd be cheaper to just pay the penalty until you get really sick, jump on the bandwagon (no pre-existing condition denials) then get all the services you want.

Soap_Man - WE ALL LOST.

re: #116 stevemcg

And just how great again was the staus quo?

Fucking awesome.
///

re: #110 Pepper Fox

Well as John Stewart put it, its $100 to get in to the zoo. You can't throw down $90 and say "I hate zebras".

Huh?

On an unrelated note, is Firefox 3.6 crashing frequently for anyone?

Among others, Heath Schuler ( D, NC) and his neighbor Boucher (D, Va) knew better than to go down that rabbit hole. Wonder if they had to get a dispensation from Mother Pelosi first?

re: #116 stevemcg

And just how great again was the staus quo?

The status quo has nothing to do with this.

I'm all for health care reform- but they bit off more than they can chew.

re: #121 Pepper Fox

On an unrelated note, is Firefox 3.6 crashing frequently for anyone?

I had it crash once.

re: #111 Girth

Proof by assertion can usually be identified by the indicator word 'clearly.'

I get sick of this crap. I am not the world's best wonk, but I really try to figure out what's true and what's fake, and then people sweep in and make stuff up out of whole cloth.

re: #121 Pepper Fox

On an unrelated note, is Firefox 3.6 crashing frequently for anyone?

Yep.

(FRIEND'S STATUS UPDATE)

I'm not necessarily for Obama, I could really care less about this health care thing, but for 8 years all I heard was, "We want change." Ok, you got change. Now everyone's complaining about how bad Obama is. Really? You asked for him, you got him.
6 minutes ago

re: #121 Pepper Fox

On an unrelated note, is Firefox 3.6 crashing frequently for anyone?

Hasn't crashed since I installed it a couple weeks ago.

re: #24 Qabal

Medicare Part E(veryone)

and Medicaid exspansion are the ways to go ultimately for guaranteed full coverage.

Private insurance will ALWAYS be availabble to top up the guarantee.

There are private insurance firms in the UK who get along fine beside the NHS.

re: #117 Racer X

The pay won't be that good when the government starts limiting what they'll pay... There's a reason that doctors are refusing Medicare patients these days. And it's not because private insurance denies everyone.

re: #85 Dark_Falcon

I'm glad you can enjoy it. It makes me depressed. It makes just want to dig a hole and crawl in.

November.

Wow. this is flying though. Republicans aren't even a speed bump on the road to affordable healthcare. How's that Tea Party working out?

My husband just swung through the room, and asked if a reconciliation bill is anything like a group hug.

re: #107 researchok

I don't see how it can be anything else but a disaster.

It's in the numbers.

It's national politics--nothing is as good as we hope, nothing is as bad as we fear.

re: #129 wozzablog

Medicare Part E(veryone)

and Medicaid exspansion are the ways to go ultimately for guaranteed full coverage.

Private insurance will ALWAYS be availabble to top up the guarantee.

There are private insurance firms in the UK who get along fine beside the NHS.

In the UK, NHS has proved to be a disaster. If you're poor or middle class, you're screwed.

re: #131 Bagua

November.

Wake me up when September ends...

re: #130 kahn_mann

There are doctors who refuse all sorts of patients these days. Some won't accpet insurance patiets due to impossible paperwork or the range of treatments they can offer.

re: #133 SanFranciscoZionist

My husband just swung through the room, and asked if a reconciliation bill is anything like a group hug.

We wish.

re: #124 Varek Raith

I had it crash once.

Me too.

I want to thank all the kids out there under 50 for funding my health care and Social Security. Us boomers are sorry but in 20 years there will be no Soc. Sec. and our health care may not be what you think this bill is gonna provide. But hey, so long and thanks for all the fish!

Boy, all of those who thought McCain wasn't conservative enough...
I HOPE YOU'RE FUCKING HAPPY NOW!

Wheee!:)

re: #132 Killgore Trout

Why should they be a speed bump? The Democrats own it. All of it. They own both houses of Congress. They own the Presidency. They should be fucking ashamed of themselves for taking THIS long to do what they wanted.

re: #135 researchok

In the UK, NHS has proved to be a disaster. If you're poor or middle class, you're screwed.

Yeah. They killed wozzablog. Those bastards!!!

re: #132 Killgore Trout

Wow. this is flying though. Republicans aren't even a speed bump on the road to affordable healthcare. How's that Tea Party working out?

Well, I wouldn't call "working on it since last July" flying through, but good point on how it's going today. The Teapers gave it their best shot and were underwhelming and ineffective.

re: #39 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah. I'm betting you're mistaken on that one.

Where exactly are all those specialists going to go, anyway? To Canada? Australia? The UK? Continental Europe? Or are they supposed to throw away a decade of med school, residency and specialist training in a fit of pique?

re: #140 pingjockey

I want to thank all the kids out there under 50 for funding my health care and Social Security. Us boomers are sorry but in 20 years there will be no Soc. Sec. and our health care may not be what you think this bill is gonna provide. But hey, so long and thanks for all the fish!

You're welcome, old man.

re: #134 Decatur Deb

It's national politics--nothing is as good as we hope, nothing is as bad as we fear.

You have a point, Still, the numbers don't work- and so far all we'r ehearing is best case scenario.

re: #122 tradewind

Among others, Heath Schuler ( D, NC) and his neighbor Boucher (D, Va) knew better than to go down that rabbit hole. Wonder if they had to get a dispensation from Mother Pelosi first?

Even the well-known habit of party leaders releasing members to vote against party legislation gets sucked into anti-Pelosi fervor? Really?

The answer is yes, if your question is serious. In addition to "how this always works", CNN and a few other places have reported specifically that Pelosi would be releasing votes to oppose once things were safe.

re: #145 Kruk

Where exactly are all those specialists going to go, anyway? To Canada? Australia? The UK? Continental Europe? Or are they supposed to throw away a decade of med school, residency and specialist training in a fit of pique?

Costa Rica.

re: #118 kahn_mann

I disagree. Everyone is created equal, but the cold, hard facts of life are that it is inherently unfair.

There will still be people deciding whether it's worth the money to provide treatment anytime anyone gets sick. And there's still nothing in the bill to force people to buy. It'd be cheaper to just pay the penalty until you get really sick, jump on the bandwagon (no pre-existing condition denials) then get all the services you want.

Soap_Man - WE ALL LOST.

I'm not talking about this bill, I said there should be total nationalized health care, a totally run by government business. All private anything in regards to health care is gone. There is NO profit industry in health care anymore.

So, I don't know what you are responding to, but it's not the comment I made... is it?

re: #142 TheMatrix31

Ah, so the wingnut's clever plan was to allow this to pass so the nation will be outraged and throw them out. Genius!

re: #145 Kruk

Texas

re: #142 TheMatrix31

Not only do they own both houses of congress and the presidency. They own the auto industry, the banking/finance industry. They'll own manufacturing, energy production, food production and pretty much everything else when they get Cap and Trade or new EPA regulations through.

re: #146 SanFranciscoZionist
Heh. Hell, I'm 51 and I wonder if Soc. Sec is gonna be there!

Is Obama going to concentrate on jobs & the economy now or do we have to see them fight over cap & trade next?

re: #148 torrentprime

Even the well-known habit of party leaders releasing members to vote against party legislation gets sucked into anti-Pelosi fervor? Really?

The answer is yes, if your question is serious. In addition to "how this always works", CNN and a few other places have reported specifically that Pelosi would be releasing votes to oppose once things were safe.

This is otherwise known as 'a practical way of not making Blue Dogs and RINOs die on their own swords just to boost the party'.

re: #39 SanFranciscoZionist
I hope you're right, but the two cardiologists who live on my block have already said if it passes the way it's supposedly written, they're outta here. I doubt they're alone.

Good! It finally passed!
And hey, if the bill really does destroy America as some Republicans have claimed, at least they will be able to say "I told you so", and change it when they get the majority back.
That is, if America isn't a smoldering Communist wasteland by then.

re: #147 researchok

You have a point, Still, the numbers don't work- and so far all we'r ehearing is best case scenario.

This is specifically untrue. The CBO pointedly did not rely on best case scenarios in its calculations: if the cost-cutting and savings in the bill even partially manifests as planned, the savings will actually be quite higher. Precisely the opposite of a best case scenario.

re: #8 Killgore Trout

They're quoting Star Wars. Heh.

And not even good Star Wars. That's the sad part.

re: #132 Killgore Trout

Wow. this is flying though. Republicans aren't even a speed bump on the road to affordable healthcare. How's that Tea Party working out?

perfect so far...is it possible that they become a non entity soon?...I don't think so, but we shall see

re: #153 kahn_mann

Look out, it's a black helicopter!111!!!

re: #129 wozzablog

Actually, in Canada it is almost verboten to have any private clinic. There is one in Toronto that has been going for years that does hernia operations. So, there are a few around. However, there is public outrage whenever they talk about any private medical facilities opening in Canada. Don't ask me where rich Canadians and our politicians will get there healthcare after this bill is fully implemented. Or, there will still be private healthcare in the U.S. in certain centers that will manage to talk their way around this bill.

re: #155 NJDhockeyfan

Is Obama going to concentrate on jobs & the economy now or do we have to see them fight over cap & trade next?

Not sure. Any guesses from the floor?

re: #132 Killgore Trout

Wow. this is flying though. Republicans aren't even a speed bump on the road to affordable healthcare. How's that Tea Party working out?

Health care reform finally passed. The people have spoken.

Now we wait for the kooks to start their revolution. That should be interesting yet entertaining at the same time.

re: #153 kahn_mann

Not only do they own both houses of congress and the presidency. They own the auto industry, the banking/finance industry. They'll own manufacturing, energy production, food production and pretty much everything else when they get Cap and Trade or new EPA regulations through.

My buzz, it has been harsh-ed.

Charles the screaming has been going on for a year now. And I do not think it has been good for the country at all, and in the big picture are we better off for Obama's "leadership"? What do we have now? Some people insured who weren't. An ill feeling in the country, the worst I've seen in a long time. States ready to try and block Federal legislation. A program that increases the deficit, unless you believe some Houdini calculations. And "pro-life" Democrats believing a promise from Mr. "punished with a baby." This is sordid, and I do not believe the country has benefited. We are disunited and at some sort of class war with one another. I don't like it.

re: #133 SanFranciscoZionist

My husband just swung through the room, and asked if a reconciliation bill is anything like a group hug.

you married to Tarzan?...tres kewl!

re: #168 albusteve

you married to Tarzan?...tres kewl!

:D

re: #157 tradewind

I hope you're right, but the two cardiologists who live on my block have already said if it passes the way it's supposedly written, they're outta here. I doubt they're alone.

Sure... go check if they are packing right now. I'll check back with you in let's say 6 months...

re: #111 Girth
Sucks for POTUS, then, since he uses the term as a preface to almost everything he says.
Now and then he changes it up and goes with ' Let Me Be Clear'. Substantially the same thing.

re: #163 yenta-fada

Actually, in Canada it is almost verboten to have any private clinic. There is one in Toronto that has been going for years that does hernia operations. So, there are a few around. However, there is public outrage whenever they talk about any private medical facilities opening in Canada. Don't ask me where rich Canadians and our politicians will get there healthcare after this bill is fully implemented. Or, there will still be private healthcare in the U.S. in certain centers that will manage to talk their way around this bill.

Uh this bill doesn't take away private healthcare in the US.

Hurrah!!!

re: #151 Killgore Trout

Ah, so the wingnut's clever plan was to allow this to pass so the nation will be outraged and throw them out. Genius!

I was giving a friend a ride home from work on Friday and we were listening to NPR. They played a bunch of quotes from Republicans that the HCR bill, if passed, will only lead to a GOP landslide in November.

My buddy: "If they are so convinced that is the case, why are they doing everything they can to keep it from passing? If the bill passing means a GOP majority in congress, why aren't they like 'Go for it dude.'"

re: #75 Walter L. Newton

Total nationalized health care is what we need. No private medical business what so ever. All government employees and everyone, from street person to the President get the exact same considerations for health care. That's the only fair and equalizing way to do it. If every man is created equal, then it should be equal.

You say: "There are persons who have no money," and you turn to the
law. But the law is not a breast that fills itself with milk. Nor are
the lacteal veins of the law supplied with milk from a source outside
the society. Nothing can enter the public treasury for the benefit of
one citizen or one class unless other citizens and other classes have
been forced to send it in. If every person draws from the treasury the
amount that he has put in it, it is true that the law then plunders
nobody. But this procedure does nothing for the persons who have no
money. It does not promote equality of income. The law can be an
instrument of equalization only as it takes from some persons and gives
to other persons. When the law does this, it is an instrument of
plunder.
-- Frederic Bastiat, The Law, 1848

re: #155 NJDhockeyfan

Is Obama going to concentrate on jobs & the economy now or do we have to see them fight over cap & trade next?

Immigration, it looks like.

re: #69 kahn_mann

Did you type this same sort of thing when Bush and the Republicans refused to pay for either of their two wars, or the Medicare Prescription Drug coverage for seniors?

re: #81 Melissa in NorCal

Stupak and his other "pro-life" colleagues are liars. They know that an Executive Order does not override the law. The bill clearly has funds put aside for elective abortions. Tax money will be used to do away with unwanted and imperfect children no doubt. They lie to their constituents if they claim to care about that reality, because they don't. It is a disappointment to say the least. While health care reform was needed, I don't think this will lead us anywhere towards a positive, but steer us more towards decline.

That's a flat-out lie, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

The community health-care centers funded in this bill, won't perform abortions. The insurance policies purchased through the exchanges, with subsidies, won't cover abortions. That's what the Stupak language was all about.

Abotion remains exactly as available or unavailable, in all the same places, as it was last week.

re: #157 tradewind

I hope you're right, but the two cardiologists who live on my block have already said if it passes the way it's supposedly written, they're outta here. I doubt they're alone.

How old are they, and how do they think the bill is written? Have they stated what their specific concerns are?

re: #159 torrentprime

This is specifically untrue. The CBO pointedly did not rely on best case scenarios in its calculations: if the cost-cutting and savings in the bill even partially manifests as planned, the savings will actually be quite higher. Precisely the opposite of a best case scenario.

No, the CBO specifically stated they do not have all the numbers and therefore they could not verify the purported savings numbers.

re: #158 shai_au

Good! It finally passed!
And hey, if the bill really does destroy America as some Republicans have claimed, at least they will be able to say "I told you so", and change it when they get the majority back.
That is, if America isn't a smoldering Communist wasteland by then.

Can't do that. The genie is out of the bottle. Ever seen a major government program downgraded or dissolved? Ever see a government program cost less than projected or even the same as projected? This is going to cost much more than they are saying, just watch.

re: #167 Ojoe

Charles the screaming has been going on for a year now. And I do not think it has been good for the country at all, and in the big picture are we better off for Obama's "leadership"? What do we have now? Some people insured who weren't. An ill feeling in the country, the worst I've seen in a long time. States ready to try and block Federal legislation. A program that increases the deficit, unless you believe some Houdini calculations. And "pro-life" Democrats believing a promise from Mr. "punished with a baby." This is sordid, and I do not believe the country has benefited. We are disunited and at some sort of class war with one another. I don't like it.

it's Hopeandchange!...easily predictable, in fact it was

re: #157 tradewind

I hope you're right, but the two cardiologists who live on my block have already said if it passes the way it's supposedly written, they're outta here. I doubt they're alone.

Yeah, and...
I've been saving this one: over Christmas, a relative told me a story. She and her husband were visiting the doctor, and the routine procedure her husband was facing had better be scheduled soon, the doctor advised, because if Obamacare passed, "the procedure would be administered without anesthesia." Doctors can lie and fearmonger just like anyone else.

Obama high-fived Emanuel, according to C-Span.

It's too bad Iceweasel and Jimmah couldn't be here on this joyous occasion.

re: #135 researchok

YEs - the mass culls of the lower and working classes began in 1946 - see them piled high on our streets...

We are stepping over corpses in all the low rent neighbourhoods and leafier suburbs.

re: #175 The Sanity Inspector

I don't care... I'm selfish. I've been investing in this country for 57 years. I'm cashing in on my investment.

re: #155 NJDhockeyfan

Is Obama going to concentrate on jobs & the economy now or do we have to see them fight over cap & trade next?

I asked that the other night, no one seems to think Cap n' Trade/Tax will be revived before they take a stab at immigration.

re: #89 Pepper Fox

If I can't get my tax dollars to not pay for war, you can't get out of paying for abortions.

I would so support an ala carte tax system. "Let's see, I'll take the education (college on the side, please), with a little healthcare drizzled on top. No social security though, I don't expect to live that long and I don't want to support the sods who do." Might be kinda messy, though.

re: #143 SanFranciscoZionist

you are now dealing with zombie wozza...

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." -- Thomas Jefferson

re: #165 Gus 802

Health care reform finally passed. The people have spoken.

Now we wait for the kooks to start their revolution. That should be interesting yet entertaining at the same time.

All of the polls show a majority against the bill. Which people are you talking about?

Sorry if this is old news:

"Democrats responded dramatically by bringing up Stupak himself to defend the passage of the law. At one point, as he argued for the new health care legislation, a member of the House shouted out, "Baby-killer."

re: #170 Walter L. Newton

Sure... go check if they are packing right now. I'll check back with you in let's say 6 months...

my doc quit...took a job teaching instead, it's a real thing amigo

re: #170 Walter L. Newton
They're not packing. They're retiring early.
Most top-notch surgeons and specialists don't really relish the idea of managed care that is even more managed.

re: #192 NJDhockeyfan

All of the polls show a majority against the bill. Which people are you talking about?

Da people in charge.

re: #183 torrentprime

Yeah, and...
I've been saving this one: over Christmas, a relative told me a story. She and her husband were visiting the doctor, and the routine procedure her husband was facing had better be scheduled soon, the doctor advised, because if Obamacare passed, "the procedure would be administered without anesthesia." Doctors can lie and fearmonger just like anyone else.

WTF?

re: #194 albusteve

my doc quit...took a job teaching instead, it's a real thing amigo

Teaching at a commie-infiltrated uni???

re: #185 Gus 802

It's too bad Iceweasel and Jimmah couldn't be here on this joyous occasion.

fine as long as they use protection, and clean up afterword

re: #177 JoyousMN

We weren't already $12 trillion (or on the way there - I lose count) in debt when the wars broke out, but I'm generally against deficit spending, or any spending for most entitlement programs.

re: #110 Pepper Fox

Well as John Stewart put it, its $100 to get in to the zoo. You can't throw down $90 and say "I hate zebras".

I'd never heard that line before, but I like it a lot.

re: #172 Jadespring

Uh this bill doesn't take away private healthcare in the US.

Yet.

re: #192 NJDhockeyfan

All of the polls show a majority against the bill. Which people are you talking about?

The same people who when polled on what's in "the bill" approve of the items contained in it?

Those people.

re: #185 Gus 802

It's too bad Iceweasel and Jimmah couldn't be here on this joyous occasion.

I'm sure they're having their own joyous occasion.

re: #192 NJDhockeyfan

**sigh**

re: #192 NJDhockeyfan

All of the polls show a majority against the bill. Which people are you talking about?

It was a vote made in congress. You do remember that it was an act of representative democracy right? Unless you believe that it was an act against the will of the people. The congresspeople vote, votes are not made through polling. Laws are not made through polling.

re: #185 Gus 802

Yeah, I'm devastated.

re: #198 Varek Raith

Teaching at a commie-infiltrated uni???

yup...200k a year for a few classes...he's laughing all the way to his liberal bank

re: #186 wozzablog

YEs - the mass culls of the lower and working classes began in 1946 - see them piled high on our streets...

We are stepping over corpses in all the low rent neighbourhoods and leafier suburbs.

I saw Sean of the Dead!!!

re: #197 SanFranciscoZionist

WTF?

I was furious. My relative, sadly, was of this opinion: "Why would he lie?"

re: #176 Soap_Man

Immigration, it looks like.

Ah yes, more voters. I guess they will get to the jobs thing sometime in the future.

Just got a call from The Parents (both former Republicans, now Green Party People). They seemed pleased.

I had a shot of Grant's scotch for giggles.

re: #192 NJDhockeyfan

It really isn't quite that clear cut.

[Link: www.kff.org...]

Agaisnt the bill as a whole, but not the provisions in it when told about it.

re: #193 avanti

Sorry if this is old news:

"Democrats responded dramatically by bringing up Stupak himself to defend the passage of the law. At one point, as he argued for the new health care legislation, a member of the House shouted out, "Baby-killer."

I'm still scratching my head over the whole Stupak amendment thing. Was that all just a ploy? and the GOP fell for it?

re: #209 SanFranciscoZionist

I saw Sean of the Dead!!!

Yes, all Zombie Apocalypse Preparedness Kits need cricket bats...

re: #195 tradewind

Most top-notch surgeons and specialists don't really relish the idea of managed care that is even more managed.

I wonder if the new system will have less paperwork.

re: #202 NJDhockeyfan

Yet.

Yes I'm guessing that will happen 3 Tuesdays from now.

//

re: #174 Soap_Man
It's called the principle of the thing.
Would firemen let a building rage out of control just to show that more firemen were needed? Would a pediatrician let a child get sicker so they could charge more for treating a more complicated illness? That's the same thing you're equating.

re: #186 wozzablog

My father is an MD in the UK. He is no fan of NHS, hospitals, etc.

As for efficiency, the NHS is the largest government (top heavy) agency.

re: #195 tradewind

They're not packing. They're retiring early.
Most top-notch surgeons and specialists don't really relish the idea of managed care that is even more managed.

Then you're statement was a bunch of bullshit. You made it sound like they were going to take some sort of hit. Their retiring? Big fucking whoop. I gather they are doing it with some good money they have made over the years.

You want to make a point, show me some doc that has been working, oh, 8-10 years, still paying off some educational bills, making decent money, I want to see then walk away.

re: #199 albusteve
/Brain bleach, and stat./

re: #172 Jadespring

I didn't say that most Canadians can DREAM of affording any private health care in the U.S. now or in the future. Good to know that our politicians will still be able to avail themselves of your fine medical services. If they are still fine medical services for anybody. I have friends in Boston who have been fighting tooth and nail for 2 decades to keep patient care at the top of their hospital priority list. They (hospitals) have to be profit centers now. Let's see what evolves.

re: #187 Walter L. Newton

I don't care... I'm selfish. I've been investing in this country for 57 years. I'm cashing in on my investment.

Clarity is preferable to agreement, as Dennis Prager says. Updings for honesty.

re: #220 Walter L. Newton
They would keep practicing otherwise. Chill, please. I'm not attacking you!

re: #202 NJDhockeyfan

Yet.

Give me a break. Medicare will do more harm to private insurers than this bill.

I'm old, but not old enough to remember how much teeth gnashing followed the implementation of SS and Medicare. When the R's talk about changing both today, they never rail against these socialist, democratic initiatives.

re: #202 NJDhockeyfan

Yet.

THIS bill does not.

re: #218 tradewind

It's called the principle of the thing.
Would firemen let a building rage out of control just to show that more firemen were needed? Would a pediatrician let a child get sicker so they could charge more for treating a more complicated illness? That's the same thing you're equating.

I didn't say it, a friend did. And I'm pretty sure he was joking.

re: #182 albusteve

The disunity in the country now is really really bad.

I think that the man at the top ... well it is happening on his watch.

I shall say no more today.

Good night all.

re: #69 kahn_mann

Let's see if the stock market takes a big dive on Monday... It's going to be a lot harder for a lot of businesses to stay open and hire people from here on out. And our kids can probably say hello to 50% or greater tax rates when they're older, whether they're rich or poor - no other way to pay for all this stuff we're sending their way.

As a biz owner with two young kids, I think you are correct. Amerikan Dems took the country hard left to socialism today.

re: #216 jaunte

I wonder if the new system will have less paperwork.

I thought it wasn't a new system. I thought it was just the same system with a few changes?

(P.S. government never equals less paperwork.)

re: #26 Stanley Sea

Yall hear this? Someone yelled from the Republican side "baby killer" when Stupak was speaking.

With all the news coverage present, has anyone been able to ID the asshole who did this?

Sorry for lack of tact, but this person deserves absolutely none for his remark.

re: #222 yenta-fada

I didn't say that most Canadians can DREAM of affording any private health care in the U.S. now or in the future. Good to know that our politicians will still be able to avail themselves of your fine medical services. If they are still fine medical services for anybody. I have friends in Boston who have been fighting tooth and nail for 2 decades to keep patient care at the top of their hospital priority list. They (hospitals) have to be profit centers now. Let's see what evolves.

I'm Canadian.

Here's some of what I wrote way back last July:

To follow up on my earlier post about the real story of the collapse of Obama’s mandate and political capital on the reef of realpolitik and Dem infighting in Congress I proffer a few links:
[bunches of links to stories back then on the infighting]
To recap: His two signature initiatives, Cap and trade and healthcare, are both stalled and creating animosity in Congress. Maybe with the high tide of return from recess they can effect some repairs and float these off the reef, but it’s not looking positive for the President.

Since then the bill, and health care reform has been more vigorously debated than any other bill in recent history. It's been drug through town halls, through scandals, through hyperbolic grenades like "Deth Panelz!" and through newsstories, congress, meetings with President Obama and committees, talking in Churches, etc. etc. etc.

Anyone who says health care wasn't debated enough is just plain nuts. The R's threw everything they had and lost.

re: #209 SanFranciscoZionist

Honestly, that was a documentary. Just the corpses of the people who died on the day they were shooting - you should have seen what it was like before we tidied up the place.

(also it was shot around fthe corner from me)

re: #227 SanFranciscoZionist

THIS bill does not.

Yeah, but why stop at reality. There's always the imagination.

/

re: #227 SanFranciscoZionist

It's a gateway drug. Like stupidity.

re: #192 NJDhockeyfan

All of the polls show a majority against the bill. Which people are you talking about?

The ones who gave the Democrats the White House, the House and the Senate (including a super majority long enough to get the bill passed.) That's how the will of the people is represented through reprsentative democracy, not via opinion polls.

re: #216 jaunte
Oh, count on it.//

re: #44 SanFranciscoZionist

I'd vote for that.

Costa Rica may have some objections.

Or, hell, maybe not.

Then we "liberate" them so they "decide" to take in Rush. And keep him.

re: #195 tradewind

They're not packing. They're retiring early.
Most top-notch surgeons and specialists don't really relish the idea of managed care that is even more managed.

Hey all, aint been around as of late for a host of reasons. I think you're right tw, a lot of docs are retiring. In the NY metro area, lot's of docs stopped doing OB because of the insurance and I know quite a few that have stopped taking insurance. With even more government regulation of insurance, this will happen in greater numbers. Eventually those that are great and worth paying for will make tons of money, those that are so so will go elsewhere. Those who were attracted to medicine may no longer be. Happens in all other industries, we shouldn't be shocked when it happens in medicine.

re: #192 NJDhockeyfan

All of the polls show a majority against the bill. Which people are you talking about?

Did the polls matter under Bush???

Oh well I guess if I want better health care now...
...I need to get elected to congress...

It is going to be so funny to watch the democrats fight each other after this second fix it bill fails in the Senate and the Executive Order gets overturned by the 9th Circuit and all the graft promises fall apart.

re: #217 Jadespring

Didn't you read the bill - that happens tomorrow...

/

re: #234 Thanos

Here's some of what I wrote way back last July:

Since then the bill, and health care reform has been more vigorously debated than any other bill in recent history. It's been drug through town halls, through scandals, through hyperbolic grenades like "Deth Panelz!" and through newsstories, congress, meetings with President Obama and committees, talking in Churches, etc. etc. etc.

Anyone who says health care wasn't debated enough is just plain nuts. The R's threw everything they had and lost.

It's the numbers that are at issue.

re: #232 RadicalModerate
Sorry, but amidst the multiple outrages ( spitting, N-word-hurling, etc, ) reported here today, that one ranks fairly far down.
Just saying.

re: #243 lrsshadow

And we're left with the worst of the worst...

re: #230 Three Hundred

As a biz owner with two young kids, I think you are correct. Amerikan Dems took the country hard left to socialism today.

Oh, yeah, the bill nationalizes the private insurers. NOT!

re: #180 researchok

Yes, the actuaries said they could not provide cost projections in the time allowed. Hey, did you know the different between actuaries and accountants? Accountants are actuaries WITHOUT the personality.

re: #211 NJDhockeyfan

Ah yes, more voters. I guess they will get to the jobs thing sometime in the future.

Do you want the Dems tackling the "jobs thing"? I don't. The first stimulus got a big thumbs down from me. And I don't want a second one.

I would rather they tackle immigration. That's one subject I agree with them on.

re: #242 Varek Raith

Did the polls matter under Bush???

Yeah, but you know how polling works. You only use it when it supports your own agenda.

/

re: #244 wozzablog

Didn't you read the bill - that happens tomorrow...

/

It does? Crap. I'm only up to page 2003, maybe that's in the 3000s.

re: #248 stevemcg
Right. It merely takes the first stab at dismantling them all together.

re: #242 Varek Raith

the Polls were very important to Bush...

re: #250 Soap_Man
Hang on. Sixteen thousand new jobs are being created as we speak, for IRS inspectors to fine you infidels who won't obey the mandates.

Naso Tang on the last thread left a rant and then went to bed. He said, in part:

I do know however that nobody dies in the streets in the USA if they can get to a hospital and nobody is denied care if they don't have cash, and millions of people, rightly or wrongly, think we have socialized medicine in this country and take it for granted. I see it up close and personal.

I have yet to hear anyone, on TV or elsewhere, explain why these "uninsured" millions aren't dying like flies all around us, and what the effect on finances will be when they suddenly become "insured" and continue to get the same care they now have.

To which I would like to respond:

Perhaps they'll qualify also for preventive care and maybe even aftercare instead of getting patched up and sent home from the ER with the advice to see their primary care doctor and an expensive prescription or two to fill, neither of which they can do at present because they're not, umm, insured.

And perhaps, just perhaps, that may turn out less costly than having them wait until they fookin' can't stand it anymore before they go to the fookin' "free" ER.

re: #253 tradewind

Right. It merely takes the first stab at dismantling them all together.

Gee, you sound like the lefties who railed against Bush for dismantling the Constitution...

Please, someone tell me that there's still a chance of this insanity to be voted down in Senate.

re: #234 Thanos

Here's some of what I wrote way back last July:

Since then the bill, and health care reform has been more vigorously debated than any other bill in recent history. It's been drug through town halls, through scandals, through hyperbolic grenades like "Deth Panelz!" and through newsstories, congress, meetings with President Obama and committees, talking in Churches, etc. etc. etc.

Anyone who says health care wasn't debated enough is just plain nuts. The R's threw everything they had and lost.

You must be joking right, this is the most backdoor bill ever done. Even the speaker said she didn't know what was in it.

How can you debate something no one really knows about?

GOP fail. How many millions of dollars were spent opposing this legislation which flew easily through? Tea Party for fiscal responsibility!
Great use of your money!
/dripping

re: #206 Gus 802

It was a vote made in congress. You do remember that it was an act of representative democracy right? Unless you believe that it was an act against the will of the people. The congresspeople vote, votes are not made through polling. Laws are not made through polling.

hahaha!...so what?...are you saying that because one is elected, they represent the people that elected them?...don't make me laugh...do you think the voters want trillions in debt? or 10% unemployment? or runnaway banking regulations that congress themselves profit from?...this is govt representing the people?...bwahahaha!...who the hell do you think has fucked this country up beyond recognition from 40 years ago?...please don't tell me you are another govt worshiper

re: #260 Killgore Trout

Ugh.