Google Reduces Evil Quotient

Technology • Views: 2,548

Google announced today that they will be redirecting Chinese users to their Hong Kong search page, where uncensored results will be shown in simplified Chinese: Official Google Blog: A new approach to China: an update.

This earns Google some good karma, and reduces their Evil Quotient considerably. The obvious possible hitch is that China could decide to block access to Google’s search engine entirely. The uncensored ball is now in the Chinese court.

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798 comments
1 darthstar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:14:21pm

Microsoft is evil. Google is just evil incarnate...which is why I like them.

2 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:15:05pm

Hold on a minute, they're firing up the tank.

3 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:17:17pm

What does Charles mean about their "Evil Quotient?"

4 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:17:28pm

Hey, would you look at that, I turned three yesterday. How many is that in Lizard years?

5 darthstar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:18:00pm

re: #4 CyanSnowHawk

Hey, would you look at that, I turned three yesterday. How many is that in Lizard years?

Three

6 SpaceJesus  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:18:10pm

nobody can troll like google can

7 freetoken  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:18:55pm

As long as Google doesn't breath the air in Hong Kong, perhaps they'll do ok just being in HK.

8 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:19:33pm

re: #3 Walter L. Newton

Isn't their motto 'don't be evil' or somesuch?

In that light alot of people objected to them getting in bed with china, thus Charles' reference.

9 keloyd  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:20:09pm

This is all part of their Master Plan, but I've said too much already.

10 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:21:36pm

re: #9 keloyd

This is all part of their Master Plan, but I've said too much already.

Looks like something Glenn Beck would draw.

11 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:21:49pm

Hey--over at the Blogmocracy, someone is referring to Stupak Shakur.

Now that is stupid, but funny.

12 teleskiguy  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:24:26pm

Google's step to allow it's Hong Kong search engine on mainland China will be a boon for people who like to search things in mainland China. Or whatever.

13 cronus  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:25:29pm

I'm sure this has nothing to do with Google's inability to gain dominance over Baidu in China and the company simply trying to score some martyr cookies on their way out of a market they probably were considering exiting before the gmail hacking issue.

14 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:26:31pm

Teacake writes:

I don’t think its far fetched to expect in the future things like national id card, unhealthy foods and drink might be illegal, bars might be forced to close, exercise will be mandatory, healthy people turning on unhealthy people and getting in their faces, and when things go wrong in surgery’s and the such, oops oh well, that will just be too bad.

15 freetoken  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:28:10pm

re: #14 SanFranciscoZionist

That's no doubt discussing when we're all forced into the FEMA camps.

16 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:29:05pm

re: #15 freetoken

That's no doubt discussing when we're all forced into the FEMA camps.

As a result of the healthcare bill, yes. People, please note, there will no bars in the FEMA camps.

17 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:29:49pm

Teacake continues: I just remembered that fitness was a big deal for the hitler youth.

18 freetoken  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:30:20pm

Speaking of the nutters, look who is on Alex Jone's radio show today... it's James Delingpole, noted AGW-science-denier for the Telegraph, supposedly discussing "Obamacare" and other issues.

19 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:30:50pm

re: #3 Walter L. Newton

What does Charles mean about their "Evil Quotient?"

have not followed it...it's all chop suey to me

20 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:31:01pm

And now, UrbanInfidel decides to dump on yoga, which you really wouldn't think had anything to do with this:

Yoga is not an ancient spiritual eastern practice either like it’s trumped up to be. It was invented in the 1930s by a German gym teacher believe it or not!

21 freetoken  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:31:04pm

re: #16 SanFranciscoZionist

And morning and evening exercises are required.

22 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:31:53pm

re: #14 SanFranciscoZionist

is this from hot air or the FR?

23 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:32:15pm

re: #22 eclectic infidel

is this from hot air or the FR?

Our crosstown rival, the Blogmocracy.

24 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:32:16pm

re: #16 SanFranciscoZionist

As a result of the healthcare bill, yes. People, please note, there will no bars in the FEMA camps.

stills will abound tho

25 EastSider  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:32:24pm

re: #13 cronus

I'm sure this has nothing to do with Google's inability to gain dominance over Baidu in China and the company simply trying to score some martyr cookies on their way out of a market they probably were considering exiting before the gmail hacking issue.

not sure about that. Even 10% of the Chinese market is enough to make any businessman worth his salt get a little excited.

Google is going to lose a LOT of money by doing this (if the Chinese shut them out), and they are still doing it anyway.

26 keloyd  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:33:41pm

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

except that this is real. Google has had this white board tradition for years. There's serious strategy as well as loose talk about the conquest of New Zealand, racing stripes on the Earth to make it spin faster, the killer robot research facility, staffed by both rogue scientists and rouge scientists, Google Gaia and other assorted nerd-humor.

27 reine.de.tout  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:34:13pm

re: #20 SanFranciscoZionist

And now, UrbanInfidel decides to dump on yoga, which you really wouldn't think had anything to do with this:

Yoga is not an ancient spiritual eastern practice either like it’s trumped up to be. It was invented in the 1930s by a German gym teacher believe it or not!

OMG that's too funny.
Who cares? And what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
It's great exercise, no matter how you look at it

28 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:34:18pm

re: #25 EastSider

not sure about that. Even 10% of the Chinese market is enough to make any businessman worth his salt get a little excited.

Google is going to lose a LOT of money by doing this (if the Chinese shut them out), and they are still doing it anyway.

It's a good decision, regardless. China's human rights record sucks unbelievably, and we let a lot of stuff slide because, well, they're rich and booming.

29 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:34:28pm

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

Our crosstown rival, the Blogmocracy.

your rival...not mine...not everybody is into the intercine scene

30 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:35:25pm

re: #27 reine.de.tout

OMG that's too funny.
Who cares? And what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
It's great exercise, no matter how you look at it

But it's

A. Not really Eastern, so moonbats who do it for that reason are stupid,

and

B. It's German from the 30s, so moonbats who do it are Nazis.

I think that's the logic here.

31 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:35:50pm

re: #28 SanFranciscoZionist

It's a good decision, regardless. China's human rights record sucks unbelievably, and we let a lot of stuff slide because, well, they're rich and booming.

and finance our debt...in other words we are China's bitch

32 reine.de.tout  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:36:28pm

re: #30 SanFranciscoZionist

But it's

A. Not really Eastern, so moonbats who do it for that reason are stupid,

and

B. It's German from the 30s, so moonbats who do it are Nazis.

I think that's the logic here.

Ah!
really weird logic IMO.
and poor Teacake was always confused.

33 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:36:55pm

re: #31 albusteve

and finance our debt...in other words we are China's bitch

Yeah. Not my favorite thought.

34 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:37:01pm

re: #18 freetoken

Speaking of the nutters, look who is on Alex Jone's radio show today... it's James Delingpole, noted AGW-science-denier for the Telegraph, supposedly discussing "Obamacare" and other issues.

Soon coming to Fox News.

35 reine.de.tout  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:37:07pm

re: #30 SanFranciscoZionist

But it's

A. Not really Eastern, so moonbats who do it for that reason are stupid,

and

B. It's German from the 30s, so moonbats who do it are Nazis.

I think that's the logic here.

And what's supposed to be the final point, you figured it out?

36 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:37:30pm

re: #35 reine.de.tout

And what's supposed to be the final point, you figured it out?

We'll all end up doing yoga at the FEMA camps, of course!

37 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:37:32pm

re: #26 keloyd

except that this is real. Google has had this white board tradition for years. There's serious strategy as well as loose talk about the conquest of New Zealand, racing stripes on the Earth to make it spin faster, the killer robot research facility, staffed by both rogue scientists and rouge scientists, Google Gaia and other assorted nerd-humor.

Put down the chalk and step away from the blackboard, Mr. Beck.

/

38 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:38:11pm

Block Baidu. Seriously.

39 EastSider  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:39:15pm

re: #31 albusteve

and finance our debt...in other words we are China's bitch

yeah but that road goes both ways. They've got a vested interest in seeing us succeed. When you've got $900B of US treasury notes its to your advantage when the dollar goes up.

But you're right, I think the US would be a little harder on China overall if they didn't own that big a % of our debt.

40 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:39:21pm

re: #27 reine.de.tout

Ohh. So that's what happened to Urban Infidel. If this is the same person I'm thinking of, she used to provide excellent photo shoots of nutty anti-war/anti-Israel rallies in New York.

There was another person too....protest shooter, I think. He just disappeared too.

41 reine.de.tout  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:41:00pm

re: #36 SanFranciscoZionist

We'll all end up doing yoga at the FEMA camps, of course!

Ah-ha!
The plot thickens.
And I suppose there will be gov't doctors standing by to - do something or the other.

Well. It's probably no secret that I'm not real pleased with the passage of HCR as it stands in this particular bill; it just seems like this thing is massive confusion, and I would prefer to see States taking on this responsibility for their citizens, I've made that point before.

But I don't see that the world is going to come crashing in on us. Anything negative that happens as a result of this, we will deal with it, it's what we do. And there is potential for much positive. So, we'll see.

42 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:41:41pm

re: #39 EastSider

I'd like to think so - but really can't bring myself to believe it. We need to break into their trade markets and get barriers down - we'd be fawning to them even if we were not debters.

43 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:42:11pm

re: #31 albusteve

and finance our debt...in other words we are China's bitch

I heard another take on this, take for what you will. But if someone owes you a couple hundred and doesn't pay, you can kiss that "friend' goodbye But if someone owes you billions, the situation is a little er, different, i.e. you need that friend a little more.

re: #25 EastSider

Said it much better.

44 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:43:43pm

re: #41 reine.de.tout

Ah-ha!
The plot thickens.
And I suppose there will be gov't doctors standing by to - do something or the other.

Well. It's probably no secret that I'm not real pleased with the passage of HCR as it stands in this particular bill; it just seems like this thing is massive confusion, and I would prefer to see States taking on this responsibility for their citizens, I've made that point before.

But I don't see that the world is going to come crashing in on us. Anything negative that happens as a result of this, we will deal with it, it's what we do. And there is potential for much positive. So, we'll see.

A lot of people are bound not to like the bill, and I have no issue with that.

It's the pretentious, over the top-ness of some of the whackosphere's reaction that I find funny, contemptible, and fascinating all at the same time.

45 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:44:06pm

re: #41 reine.de.tout

Could you add a link on the Cookbook blog for this?.....

Highly recommended viewing: Jamie Oliver's Food Revolution
I love Hulu because the commercial breaks are so short but it's also showing on ABC on Friday evenings. It's an American version of his UK program "School Dinners" and should be of special interest to the parents out there who should be concerned about what their children are eating at school. Even if you aren't into healthy eating it's very entertaining television and Jamie is a likable and sincere food advocate. Give it a try.
46 cronus  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:44:42pm

re: #25 EastSider

not sure about that. Even 10% of the Chinese market is enough to make any businessman worth his salt get a little excited.

Google is going to lose a LOT of money by doing this (if the Chinese shut them out), and they are still doing it anyway.

I don't think that's true. Real resources are required to maintain a viable search platform and my limited understanding of the search business is that your really need a significant position to make it profitable.

Don't get me wrong. I think Google's doing the right thing. It should just be noted that they managed to censor their results up until now and it may not be a coincidence that they chose to take this stand in a market where they haven't made significant headway against an entrenched competitor.

47 EastSider  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:45:08pm

re: #42 wozzablog

I'd like to think so - but really can't bring myself to believe it. We need to break into their trade markets and get barriers down - we'd be fawning to them even if we were not debters.

There's two different "we's" here. Its likely that private enterprises based in the US would fawn regardless, given the sheer scale of the Chinese market, but the government has different priorities besides making a buck (as is seen in our riduculously high and rising national debt).

48 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:45:16pm

re: #44 SanFranciscoZionist

A lot of people are bound not to like the bill, and I have no issue with that.

It's the pretentious, over the top-ness of some of the whackosphere's reaction that I find funny, contemptible, and fascinating all at the same time.

Quite concur.

49 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:45:30pm

re: #43 Stanley Sea

I heard another take on this, take for what you will. But if someone owes you a couple hundred and doesn't pay, you can kiss that "friend' goodbye But if someone owes you billions, the situation is a little er, different, i.e. you need that friend a little more.

re: #25 EastSider

Said it much better.

we can always just stiff them if they get too uppity

50 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:45:33pm

re: #36 SanFranciscoZionist

When all my american friends are in the FEMA Camps - i'll be sure to send red cross parcels.....

51 jdog29  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:45:50pm

Use bing. Google is evil.

52 reine.de.tout  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:46:18pm

re: #45 Killgore Trout

Could you add a link on the Cookbook blog for this?...

okey-dokey, getting it done now.

53 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:46:45pm

re: #49 albusteve

we can always just stiff them if they get too uppity

Always a possibility!

54 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:47:00pm

re: #47 EastSider

Theres balance of payments, import taxes, labour and myriad other governmental concerns involved.

It's sad, but thats the way it is.

55 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:47:12pm

re: #52 reine.de.tout

Thanks.

56 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:47:48pm

re: #51 jdog29

Use bing. Google is evil.

Bing? I never I thought I'd see Microsoft the glorious Angel on the shoulder...

57 EastSider  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:48:57pm

re: #43 Stanley Sea

I heard another take on this, take for what you will. But if someone owes you a couple hundred and doesn't pay, you can kiss that "friend' goodbye But if someone owes you billions, the situation is a little er, different, i.e. you need that friend a little more.

re: #25 EastSider

Said it much better.


Reminds me of the old story I heard in school about a CEO at a small company when a major client wasn't paying her.

"Send the accountants!" she said after a month went by and they owed $10k. "He better pay!"

"Send the lawyers!" she said after two months went by and they owed $20k. "He'll know we're serious now"

"Good god man send the doctor!" she said after three months and they owed $30k. "He better be okay or else we're screwed!"

58 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:48:57pm

re: #50 wozzablog

When all my american friends are in the FEMA Camps - i'll be sure to send red cross parcels...

Thanks, wozza, but I'm pretty sure the NHS will have killed you by then...

59 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:49:59pm

re: #58 SanFranciscoZionist

Thanks, wozza, but I'm pretty sure the NHS will have killed you by then...

WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!111

////

60 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:51:33pm

re: #58 SanFranciscoZionist

Ofcourse.

My death panel appointment for retroactive abortion due to my lack of societal worth has been postponed again....... not long now though i fear........

61 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:52:47pm

I have been asked to advise a trade group and a government regulatory panel on a serious problem out of China. In short when we demanded inexpensive jewelry, China used leaded brass. American manufacturers know better. China was told to stop using lead. They chose cadmium to substitute for lead. Next I suppose they will use mercury.

Thankfully I am able to advise this is not an issue with "fine" jewelry, sterling, gold, palladium and platinum.

But for costume or fashion jewelry, China is apt to export materials containing dangerous metals. So regulations will be promulgated again. And again, only because companies that know better but give in to craven greed or seek to please "authoritarian capitalist" communist masters.

Buyer Beware.

62 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:53:50pm

re: #56 HoosierHoops

Bing? I never I thought I'd see Microsoft the glorious Angel on the shoulder...

Bill Gates with little wings?
Boggles my mind!
Tinkerbell with glasses & a suit!

63 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:54:00pm

re: #59 Dark_Falcon

WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!111

///

just curious...where are the doctors, PAs and NPs gonna come from to care for 35m more patients?...nobody seems to know

64 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:55:48pm

re: #62 Floral Giraffe

Bill Gates with little wings?
Boggles my mind!
Tinkerbell with glasses & a suit!

I'm from MicroSoft and I'm here to help you..
OH GOD NO!

65 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:56:23pm

re: #61 Rightwingconspirator

Good for you for participating!
Once upon a time, I managed a "costume jewelry" department.
When asked what the metal was, we always said
"It's an alloy". Short for "the dog's breakfast"!

66 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:56:29pm

re: #63 albusteve

just curious...where are the doctors, PAs and NPs gonna come from to care for 35m more patients?...nobody seems to know

Supply and demand. Hmmmm...I wish some economist would come up with some ideas about that.
/Just kidding.

67 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:56:51pm

re: #63 albusteve

just curious...where are the doctors, PAs and NPs gonna come from to care for 35m more patients?...nobody seems to know

India.

68 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:57:12pm

re: #63 albusteve

just curious...where are the doctors, PAs and NPs gonna come from to care for 35m more patients?...nobody seems to know

China?

69 EastSider  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:57:12pm

re: #63 albusteve

just curious...where are the doctors, PAs and NPs gonna come from to care for 35m more patients?...nobody seems to know

perhaps a follow on would be medical school reform/tuition forgiveness. I considered being a doctor for a bit but was dissuaded by the incredible financial and time commitment required to get into the profession.

And if this bill creates the demand for those kinds of jobs and employees an additional 1M people, will that be considered a side benefit?

70 jvic  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:57:25pm

re: #11 SanFranciscoZionist

Hey--over at the Blogmocracy, someone is referring to Stupak Shakur.

Now that is stupid, but funny.

SFZ, I'll use you as cover to go OT.

Who, with the delighted assistance of the MSM, may become the public face of the Repeal Obamacare movement?

Michele Bachmann.

Look. Although I've disparaged the contemporary "Right" on this board, I really am a conservative-leaning libertarian. Some of the Gipper's speeches still bring tears to my eyes.

Michele Bachmann??!!

Bashes. Forehead. Against. Desktop.

71 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:57:49pm

re: #63 albusteve

just curious...where are the doctors, PAs and NPs gonna come from to care for 35m more patients?...nobody seems to know

IIRC an early version of the bill had some strong incentives (student loan breaks) for med students. (Don't know if that survived). We'll either grow them or import them.

72 freetoken  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:58:29pm

re: #67 SanFranciscoZionist

re: #68 Floral Giraffe

Philippines and Indonesia.

Well, that is what Japan is doing.

73 SeafoodGumbo  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:59:41pm

This doesn't lower Google's evil quotient one iota. They are belatedly doing the right thing only after the Chinese government hacked their servers. Google was more than happy to provide search filters for the authoritarian government as long as the Chinese didn't shoot at Google, but at others.

That doesn't lower their dirtbag score "considerably." It just lowers it some. And not that much.

74 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:00:09pm

re: #70 jvic

SFZ, I'll use you as cover to go OT.

Who, with the delighted assistance of the MSM, may become the public face of the Repeal Obamacare movement?

Michele Bachmann.

Look. Although I've disparaged the contemporary "Right" on this board, I really am a conservative-leaning libertarian. Some of the Gipper's speeches still bring tears to my eyes.

Michele Bachmann??!!

Bashes. Forehead. Against. Desktop.

I'm so sorry.

75 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:00:14pm

re: #65 Floral Giraffe

Well done. This is probably my 4th regulatory/trade cooperation effort. Better they have a clue than I withhold the effort.

76 SeafoodGumbo  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:00:32pm

Guess I was contradictory....their evil quotient was lowered exactly one iota...

77 Cato the Elder  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:01:41pm

You can't stop the Matrix. I should know, I've been trying to at least slow him down here for months.

78 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:02:03pm

re: #67 SanFranciscoZionist

India.

And in school here. Finishing up their residency with a big yahoo!!

79 EastSider  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:02:07pm

re: #70 jvic

SFZ, I'll use you as cover to go OT.

Who, with the delighted assistance of the MSM, may become the public face of the Repeal Obamacare movement?

Michele Bachmann.

Look. Although I've disparaged the contemporary "Right" on this board, I really am a conservative-leaning libertarian. Some of the Gipper's speeches still bring tears to my eyes.

Michele Bachmann??!!

Bashes. Forehead. Against. Desktop.

the repeal effort seems fairly futile. The math is pretty staggering. Assuming Obama would veto any bill that made it out of Congress, you'd need a pretty hefty swing to override. Or a republican president/congressional majorities in 2012, but by then it would likely be too late.

I think your best bet is in the courts, but that seems unlikely as well.

80 Cato the Elder  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:04:21pm

OK, this has been overdone, but:

Hitler discovers the Republicans have no ideas.

Youtube Video
81 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:05:46pm

re: #70 jvic

SFZ, I'll use you as cover to go OT.

Who, with the delighted assistance of the MSM, may become the public face of the Repeal Obamacare movement?

Michele Bachmann.

Look. Although I've disparaged the contemporary "Right" on this board, I really am a conservative-leaning libertarian. Some of the Gipper's speeches still bring tears to my eyes.

Michele Bachmann??!!

Bashes. Forehead. Against. Desktop.

From your article, here's the DNC response:

Updated 6:49 p.m.: A spokesman for the Democratic National Committee has responded to Republican calls to repeal Democrats' health care reform legislation. “While Democrats have delivered reform that will make care more affordable and reliable, Republicans would allow insurance companies to continue to charge whatever they wanted for care and take it away when you got sick," DNC national press secretary Hari Sevugan said in a written statement. "Republicans may finally have a plan, but it quite literally is plan to go backwards, and that’s not one we can afford.”

82 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:08:43pm

Dear Lord...I can't breathe..I'm laughing so hard...
The South Park episode of Tiger Woods..Funny as hell..
Sorry Tiger you are so f*cked dude...You got punked..
OK..Breathe slow..Slowly now..That was funny..
/Tiger tested positive for sex addiction......ohhhh

83 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:08:54pm

re: #71 Decatur Deb

If demand for a product goes up, doesn't supply follow anyway?........ (channeling the market economist in me)

There should be a massive drive to get kids into medical school now that the number of people allowed services will have increased.

There are thousands of bright kids who want to be doctors but can't afford it, if there is no funding in the bill it should be funneled in sideways for grants/forgivenesses/bursarys etc.

84 freetoken  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:09:00pm

re: #77 Cato the Elder

Youth brings intensity, if nothing else.

85 Ojoe  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:09:27pm

In china, perhaps someone will link to the
Towercam!

(A serene evening upon the San Gabriel Mountains of California, if you look now)

86 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:10:10pm

it takes 8 years of school...everybody knows that...then you begin a residency and resident doctors are dumber than a bag of rocks...that lasts for several more years...70hr weeks of pure burnout...here will be a lag period where we will need to import doctors from elsewhere...when our 'homegrown' docs finish their residency and are ready for practice, will there be jobs for them?....they will have mind boggling debt...there is a crisis built into this bill if you connect the dots, which few will

87 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:11:23pm

Good Evening LGF.

88 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:12:06pm

re: #85 Ojoe

In china, perhaps someone will link to the
Towercam!

(A serene evening upon the San Gabriel Mountains of California, if you look now)

What is the New Whig take in the HCR? Help or hurt the recruiting cause?

89 Ojoe  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:12:07pm

re: #87 Spare O'Lake

LGF where some of us smell.

90 Ericus58  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:12:13pm

re: #85 Ojoe

In china, perhaps someone will link to the
Towercam!

(A serene evening upon the San Gabriel Mountains of California, if you look now)

Such Blue.... very nice

91 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:12:31pm

re: #86 albusteve

it takes 8 years of school...everybody knows that...then you begin a residency and resident doctors are dumber than a bag of rocks...that lasts for several more years...70hr weeks of pure burnout...here will be a lag period where we will need to import doctors from elsewhere...when our 'homegrown' docs finish their residency and are ready for practice, will there be jobs for them?...they will have mind boggling debt...there is a crisis built into this bill if you connect the dots, which few will

They are salivating in the medical boutiques of India.

92 Ojoe  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:12:48pm

re: #88 Decatur Deb

I haven't heard anything new from the Whigs on that...

93 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:14:36pm

re: #86 albusteve

it takes 8 years of school...everybody knows that...then you begin a residency and resident doctors are dumber than a bag of rocks...that lasts for several more years...70hr weeks of pure burnout...here will be a lag period where we will need to import doctors from elsewhere...when our 'homegrown' docs finish their residency and are ready for practice, will there be jobs for them?...they will have mind boggling debt...there is a crisis built into this bill if you connect the dots, which few will

Some of those problems cancel another--the 30 million "new" billpayers will provide doc jobs. The student loan debt can be eased, per this bill or another.

94 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:16:25pm

At least Google hasn't been as evil as Yahoo. People are in jail right now because of Yahoo.

95 Batman  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:16:48pm

re: #62 Floral Giraffe

Bill Gates with little wings?
Boggles my mind!
Tinkerbell with glasses & a suit!

I'm conflicted. I'm convinced Bill Gates is an angel sent from heaven, but I know for fact Steve Ballmer is literally the devil himself. I don't know how that partnership could have happened.

96 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:17:33pm

good night all.

97 EastSider  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:17:47pm

re: #86 albusteve

it takes 8 years of school...everybody knows that...then you begin a residency and resident doctors are dumber than a bag of rocks...that lasts for several more years...70hr weeks of pure burnout...here will be a lag period where we will need to import doctors from elsewhere...when our 'homegrown' docs finish their residency and are ready for practice, will there be jobs for them?...they will have mind boggling debt...there is a crisis built into this bill if you connect the dots, which few will

As my dad says about a baseball team with two pretty good short stops: "Its a good problem to have."

98 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:18:06pm

re: #94 The Sanity Inspector

? I had no idea.

99 Cato the Elder  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:18:31pm

re: #80 Cato the Elder

By the way, does anyone know what movie that overused Hitler clip comes from? I think I might like to watch the original. The actor playing Hitler seems to incorporate most of what I've read about his up-close persona.

100 Ojoe  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:18:42pm

re: #61 Rightwingconspirator

Lead makes brass easier to machine and old water taps can very well be made of leaded brass.

If you have a quite old building get them checked.

101 Batman  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:19:07pm

re: #99 Cato the Elder

By the way, does anyone know what movie that overused Hitler clip comes from? I think I might like to watch the original. The actor playing Hitler seems to incorporate most of what I've read about his up-close persona.

I think it's "Downfall."

102 Cato the Elder  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:19:15pm

re: #89 Ojoe

LGF where some of us smell.

I'm Saddle-Soap!

103 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:19:31pm

re: #99 Cato the Elder

Looks like "Downfall"--at least that is the source of most rant satire.

104 Ericus58  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:19:40pm

re: #93 Decatur Deb

Some of those problems cancel another--the 30 million "new" billpayers will provide doc jobs. The student loan debt can be eased, per this bill or another.

Are you saying that there will be revenue from these 'new' 30 million covered recipients of healthcare? How will they pay for this coverage and services rendered? And who covers the loan debt?

105 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:19:54pm

re: #102 Cato the Elder

I'm Saddle-Soap!

I'm rug burn.

106 Ojoe  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:19:59pm

re: #102 Cato the Elder

I was Castile soap !

LOL

107 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:21:05pm

re: #102 Cato the Elder

I'm Saddle-Soap!

Is that a good thing?

108 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:21:06pm

The obvious possible hitch is that China could decide to block access to Google’s search engine entirely. The uncensored ball is now in the Chinese court.

They massacred their own young people live in front of the international news media's microphones. They're not going to get all moist and sniffly over some pirated Lady Gaga cds, some toxic dumps in farm communities the inhabitants of which are forbidden to leave, or the travails of a bunch of laowai internet whizzes.

109 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:21:39pm

re: #104 Ericus58

It's not free healthcare. There will be premiums and surchages and myriad other funding - yes, there will be extra money in the system.

110 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:22:10pm

re: #105 Walter L. Newton

TMI

111 freetoken  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:22:20pm

re: #104 Ericus58

First, I doubt the real total is 30 million (it is a very squishy number), and furthermore the final bill looks like there are still holes through which some people will fall.

112 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:22:29pm

re: #109 wozzablog

It's not free healthcare. There will be premiums and surchages and myriad other funding - yes, there will be extra money in the system.

There will be extra money in the system. YOUR money.

113 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:23:06pm

re: #104 Ericus58

Are you saying that there will be revenue from these 'new' 30 million covered recipients of healthcare? How will they pay for this coverage and services rendered? And who covers the loan debt?

The revenue comes from the revamped (and subsidized) insurance, at least in this version. There are a lot of programs to relieve loans for docs and teachers, often to move them into underserved locations. All of that could use improvement. That's why I'm no too upset the bill phases in over several years.

114 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:23:27pm

re: #100 Ojoe

Indeed. Apparently cadmium does the same. Back to the phase diagrams. Base metals. Blegh. Platinum metallurgy is easy compared to this stuff.

115 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:23:56pm

re: #94 The Sanity Inspector

At least Google hasn't been as evil as Yahoo. People are in jail right now because of Yahoo.

How so?

116 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:24:43pm

re: #89 Ojoe

LGF where some of us smell.

Some smell really swell,
And others smell like hell.

117 Cato the Elder  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:24:44pm

re: #107 Floral Giraffe

Is that a good thing?

If you're into leather, yes.

118 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:24:49pm

re: #98 Rightwingconspirator

? I had no idea.

Spineless f!ers...

119 EastSider  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:25:01pm

re: #109 wozzablog

It's not free healthcare. There will be premiums and surchages and myriad other funding - yes, there will be extra additional money in the system.

fixed it for you. There will be more money in the system, but to say that there will be money to spare is perhaps stretching it.

In terms of a potential solution: right now Insurance companies have something like an 80% effiency rate (e.g. 20% of premiums go to bureaucracy). If we could set a floor of 90% you might be able to use the additional $ for med school reimbursement for docs.

120 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:25:13pm

re: #93 Decatur Deb

Some of those problems cancel another--the 30 million "new" billpayers will provide doc jobs. The student loan debt can be eased, per this bill or another.

not for Americans...the time frame does not add up, and we will have to farm out our care to whoever can fill the demand...bummer...just get warm bodies in here that write scrips

121 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:25:36pm

re: #112 Floral Giraffe

If i have a cadillac health plan, am paying into a new scheme or in a higher tax bracket - then probably.

Primarily residing in the UK though my recent sales tax payments in colorado & Texas will gave to suffice as my input to solidarity ;-)

122 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:25:50pm

re: #94 The Sanity Inspector

At least Google hasn't been as evil as Yahoo. People are in jail right now because of Yahoo.

I just don't want to go to jail because of TurboTax. (Finished today.)

123 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:26:07pm

re: #97 EastSider

As my dad says about a baseball team with two pretty good short stops: "Its a good problem to have."

how so?...I don't get the analogy

124 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:26:56pm

re: #123 albusteve

It's better than the problem of having no shortstops.

125 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:27:01pm

re: #115 Dark_Falcon

How so?

Yahoo let the Chinese comb through their email records, to apprehend political dissidents. Zey ver chust following orders...

126 torrentprime  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:27:25pm

re: #120 albusteve

not for Americans...the time frame does not add up, and we will have to farm out our care to whoever can fill the demand...bummer...just get warm bodies in here that write scrips

The contention here is that we won't have doctors for a time period? Why? This is a new objection...

127 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:27:30pm

re: #104 Ericus58

Are you saying that there will be revenue from these 'new' 30 million covered recipients of healthcare? How will they pay for this coverage and services rendered? And who covers the loan debt?

people just blow off this problem...amazing

128 EastSider  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:27:42pm

re: #123 albusteve

how so?...I don't get the analogy

as in, you'd rather be dealing w/ figuring out how to use one of your two good short stops as opposed to having no good short stops.

So in the case of healthcare, you'd rather be dealing with how to get enough doctors to care for 30M people who can now access basic healthcare than figuring out how to get those people the bare minimum of coverage in the richest country in the world.

/but that's just my opinion, many people don't see it that way.

129 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:27:54pm

re: #120 albusteve

not for Americans...the time frame does not add up, and we will have to farm out our care to whoever can fill the demand...bummer...just get warm bodies in here that write scrips

There's going to be rough spots--We're still tinkering with Social Security and Medicare.

130 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:28:13pm

re: #122 Decatur Deb

I just don't want to go to jail because of TurboTax. (Finished today.)

That reminds me, I've got to adjust my withholding amounts on my W4. My federal refund was too big; I'd rather not let them hang on to that sum year round interest free.

131 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:28:24pm

re: #119 EastSider

Thanks - my sloppy wording.

It's my sentiment exactly.

132 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:29:42pm

re: #126 torrentprime

The contention here is that we won't have doctors for a time period? Why? This is a new objection...

do the math..I'm not objecting to anything

133 torrentprime  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:29:42pm

re: #127 albusteve

people just blow off this problem...amazing

If by "blow off", you mean "calculate what it could cost and budget accordingly with studies and plans formulated over years of analysis", then, yeah, they REALLY blew it off. Like, a lot.

134 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:30:28pm

re: #132 albusteve

*just asking questions.......... America.....*

135 EastSider  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:30:38pm

re: #130 The Sanity Inspector

That reminds me, I've got to adjust my withholding amounts on my W4. My federal refund was too big; I'd rather not let them hang on to that sum year round interest free.

careful, some of that may have been a one off part of the stimulus package passed early in Obama's first term--aka the least well publicized tax cut in the history of tax cuts.

Plus the 1% interest rate you can get right now on savings ain't too appealing.

136 Cheechako  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:30:38pm

re: #130 The Sanity Inspector

That reminds me, I've got to adjust my withholding amounts on my W4. My federal refund was too big; I'd rather not let them hang on to that sum year round interest free.


Check out the savings interest rates at your local bank or credit union. You're not giving up too much.

137 freetoken  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:30:57pm

Socialism!

More cities banning 'television on a stick'

As the USA cracks down on texting while driving, more than a dozen cities around the nation have banned what some consider a growing external driving distraction: digital billboards.

Digital billboards change images every four to 10 seconds, flashing multiple messages from one or more advertisers on the same sign. Opponents such as John Regesnbogen of Scenic Missouri deride them as "television on a stick."

Didn't someone upstream warn us about this! Now they want to control what we see. Continuing on...

"There's no doubt in my mind that they are not a driving distraction," says Bryan Parker, an executive vice president for Clear Channel Outdoor, which owns about 400 digital billboards.

Well, if Clear Channel says the TVs-on-a-stick are safe then they must be safe. After all, who is closer to God than Clear Channel (well, maybe Fox News, but they haven't weighed in yet)?

138 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:31:23pm

re: #118 The Sanity Inspector

I had no idea. Many thanks!!!

139 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:31:51pm

ok, no really, this time - g'night folks.

PLease no-one comment until two minutes after i post this....... or i will be back (again)

;-)

/

140 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:31:58pm

re: #133 torrentprime

If by "blow off", you mean "calculate what it could cost and budget accordingly with studies and plans formulated over years of analysis", then, yeah, they REALLY blew it off. Like, a lot.

explain to me where the pros are going to come from...we will need a huge increase in a short perioid of time, no?....and why are you so sassy?

141 torrentprime  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:32:29pm

re: #128 EastSider

So in the case of healthcare, you'd rather be dealing with how to get enough doctors to care for 30M people who can now access basic healthcare than figuring out how to get those people the bare minimum of coverage in the richest country in the world.

Agree, and:
People on the right constantly tell us we have the best medical system in the world. Are they also saying that the Planet's Best Medical System can't treat its own citizens? Treating 30 million people in a country with over 300 million will just shatter what we've got going?

142 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:33:38pm

re: #141 torrentprime

Agree, and:
People on the right constantly tell us we have the best medical system in the world. Are they also saying that the Planet's Best Medical System can't treat its own citizens? Treating 30 million people in a country with over 300 million will just shatter what we've got going?

And they are being treated, to some inefficient extent, already.

143 freetoken  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:33:42pm

re: #140 albusteve

We can always import health care professionals. More green cards. Pat Buchanan and VDARE and the Tea Partiers won't be happy, but importing talent is not unusual.

144 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:34:52pm

re: #125 The Sanity Inspector

Yahoo let the Chinese comb through their email records, to apprehend political dissidents. Zey ver chust following orders...

Thank you.

145 Jadespring  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:35:27pm

re: #120 albusteve

not for Americans...the time frame does not add up, and we will have to farm out our care to whoever can fill the demand...bummer...just get warm bodies in here that write scrips

You're totally correct on the time it takes to get larger number of docs educated and into the system. Yes there could be a short term crunch as the system adjusts to the new reality. That shouldn't be a reason not to do it or used as some sort of excuse not to get coverage to millions of people who either don't now or have sparse coverage. As long as there is some sort of plan of action to deal with the issue and deal with the adjustment. Long term, once the adjustment occurs the nation will be better off overall with more doctors per capita and more people with at least a basic standard of healthcare. I think this is part of the point of this exercise.

146 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:36:11pm

So..4 days of intense Basketball...Intense...My favorite time of the year..
So to relax I just watched the South Park episode of Tiger Woods..Funny as Hell and now watching..Wait for it..Wait for it..The Maltese Falcon with Bogart..
Does it get any better Lizards? (And it's springtime)

147 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:36:26pm

re: #142 Decatur Deb


It will reduce the workload on the ER's as people can see family doctors on a plan for minor ailements before they erupt - literally.

Fewer hospital stays due to better preventive medicine and catching problems early - will take a load off the high end and save hospitals time and money by greatly reducing the amount of uninsured patients they bill & and or lose money on.

148 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:36:31pm

re: #140 albusteve

How's the new grandson? And his Mom? I hope they are doing well?

149 torrentprime  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:37:04pm

re: #140 albusteve

explain to me where the pros are going to come from...we will need a huge increase in a short perioid of time, no?...and why are you so sassy?

No, we won't. It's not like 30 million people are going to flood the same doctor's office on the same day. They'll be spread out across plans and providers and needs, which will then get the revenue from their added business, have already known this was coming and adjusted staff levels, things will ramp up and adjuest to the new flow.... basically, everything American businesses have known how to do forever. And since we're still talking private health insurance companies, it is American businesses, and somehow I don't think a planned increase in business will prove an unfathomable challenge to profits or operations.

150 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:37:11pm

re: #143 freetoken

We can always import health care professionals. More green cards. Pat Buchanan and VDARE and the Tea Partiers won't be happy, but importing talent is not unusual.

I know that...that's my point...after that will there be jobs for American docs?...if not what's the point of ramping up our system for training them...should we count on aliens becoming legal and adding to the market?...just some questions

151 EastSider  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:37:13pm

re: #142 Decatur Deb

And they are being treated, to some inefficient extent, already.

Thats a HUGE point in all of this Deb. Preventative care is huge towards lowering overall costs. Sure the person (or the taxpayers subsidizing) goes from spending $0/year to $1000/year on premiums, but can anyone take a guess on the backend costs savings of catching something like breast cancer (and treating it) early versus catching it late and performing much more radical procedures? Or the cost of going to a doctor for a tough cough versus taking an ambulance ride to the ER for the serious bout of pneumonia that eventually develops?

152 prairiefire  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:37:17pm

re: #146 HoosierHoops

Nurse Jackie season 2 premiere was just on . That was pertty good.

153 torrentprime  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:38:40pm

re: #150 albusteve

I know that...that's my point...after that will there be jobs for American docs?...if not what's the point of ramping up our system for training them...should we count on aliens becoming legal and adding to the market?...just some questions

Filling a theoretical short-term job gap will ruin the market for native docs forever? Silliness.

154 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:39:09pm

re: #148 Floral Giraffe

How's the new grandson? And his Mom? I hope they are doing well?

yes, I've heard him snort and whimper over the phone...he seems to be saying "where's my grandpa?"

155 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:39:23pm

re: #145 Jadespring

You're totally correct on the time it takes to get larger number of docs educated and into the system. Yes there could be a short term crunch as the system adjusts to the new reality. That shouldn't be a reason not to do it or used as some sort of excuse not to get coverage to millions of people who either don't now or have sparse coverage. As long as there is some sort of plan of action to deal with the issue and deal with the adjustment. Long term, once the adjustment occurs the nation will be better off overall with more doctors per capita and more people with at least a basic standard of healthcare. I think this is part of the point of this exercise.

America has outsourced a good part of its high-paying manufacturing and tech jobs, why not 10% of its health care industry?

156 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:40:27pm

re: #149 torrentprime

No, we won't. It's not like 30 million people are going to flood the same doctor's office on the same day. They'll be spread out across plans and providers and needs, which will then get the revenue from their added business, have already known this was coming and adjusted staff levels, things will ramp up and adjuest to the new flow... basically, everything American businesses have known how to do forever. And since we're still talking private health insurance companies, it is American businesses, and somehow I don't think a planned increase in business will prove an unfathomable challenge to profits or operations.

I think you are in for a shock in about five years

157 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:40:32pm

re: #152 prairiefire

Nurse Jackie season 2 premiere was just on . That was pertty good.

I'm about to finish off disc 3 of season 1. I'm quite impressed. I really liked season 1 of of the United States of Tara too. Toni Collette is not only an excellent actress, but I've got to admit that the fellow who plays her husband can also act. I remember him from Northern Exposure and his character seemed weak in that role. Glad his acting has matured over the years.

158 freetoken  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:40:58pm

re: #150 albusteve

New waves of immigrants lead to more population... which leads to more economic growth (though the xenophobes are loath to admit it.)

As others have indicated, you are making it sound like this is a Heaviside step function with 30 million new people hitting your doctor's office all at once. However, that is quite unlikely, IMO.

159 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:41:21pm

re: #155 Spare O'Lake

America has outsourced a good part of its high-paying manufacturing and tech jobs, why not 10% of its health care industry?

More like "insourcing". We attract them, they assimilate, and all the while they are taxpayers.

160 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:41:34pm

re: #155 Spare O'Lake

Thats if the health insurance call centers aren't there already...............

161 torrentprime  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:41:36pm

re: #156 albusteve

I think you are in for a shock in about five years

Well, that's the benefit of being a naysayer. Doubting the future is always a good fallback position. ;)

162 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:42:27pm

re: #152 prairiefire

Nurse Jackie season 2 premiere was just on . That was pertty good.

Crap! I forgot! I TIVO'd the new 2 1/2 men and the Big Bang theory tonight...I'll watch them later..
BTW.. We all know who the 1/2 man is in 2 1/2 men don't we? Looking at you Charlie...You are a POS

163 EastSider  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:42:51pm

re: #159 Decatur Deb

More like "insourcing". We attract them, they assimilate, and all the while they are taxpayers.

Agree. I wouldn't expect the docs to be climbing over the border fence.

164 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:43:15pm

re: #150 albusteve

I know that...that's my point...after that will there be jobs for American docs?...if not what's the point of ramping up our system for training them...should we count on aliens becoming legal and adding to the market?...just some questions

There is a whole section of the bill in regards to the Health are Workforce... which is a combination of medical personal and facilities who have benefitted from educational subsidy programs and student loans, and these people will give a portion of their career to this community health services.

This is not new, simply an expansion of a already existing program. Of course, since this is now going to be instigated on a much larger scale than it's existing form, there is new oversight and portions of the bill that deal with this expansion.

165 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:43:23pm

re: #153 torrentprime

Filling a theoretical short-term job gap will ruin the market for native docs forever? Silliness.

don't know...but why should I trust anybody that doesn't know either?....the strength of an argument does not lie with the degree of conviction...call it silly but you may be wrong

166 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:43:34pm

re: #162 HoosierHoops

Charlie is a troofer as well.

167 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:44:29pm

re: #158 freetoken

New waves of immigrants lead to more population... which leads to more economic growth (though the xenophobes are loath to admit it.)

As others have indicated, you are making it sound like this is a Heaviside step function with 30 million new people hitting your doctor's office all at once. However, that is quite unlikely, IMO.

it's the new Gold Rush!...health care jobs we cannot provide

168 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:46:40pm

re: #167 albusteve

it's the new Gold Rush!...health care jobs we cannot provide

At the rate my generation is falling apart, there will be more than enough work for willing hands.

169 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:46:44pm

re: #165 albusteve

I hate to break it to you - so i will attempt to do so gently, please be sitting down for this - it may be you who in the end is proved wrong.

Nihilism, on the other hand will definitely not fix the system.

170 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:46:55pm

Hey Evening Lizards!

Has any thing shaken-out since this morning?

How are you-all?

171 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:47:36pm

The title of this post sounds like an Onion headline.

172 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:47:57pm

re: #170 ggt

Hey Evening Lizards!

Has any thing shaken-out since this morning?

How are you-all?

We are adjusting to our new socialist medical overlords.

173 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:47:59pm

re: #169 wozzablog

I hate to break it to you - so i will attempt to do so gently, please be sitting down for this - it may be you who in the end is proved wrong.

Nihilism, on the other hand will definitely not fix the system.

as an aside... are you in Britain?

174 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:48:19pm

re: #173 Walter L. Newton

I am.

175 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:48:22pm

re: #154 albusteve

yes, I've heard him snort and whimper over the phone...he seems to be saying "where's my grandpa?"

LOL!
Only you are hearing that!

176 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:48:53pm

re: #174 wozzablog

I am.

Are you an ex-pat?

177 prairiefire  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:48:54pm

re: #168 Decatur Deb

Remember what I said, Hippies and bed pans.

178 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:49:45pm

re: #157 eclectic infidel

Season 3 of Breaking Bad just started but I'm still waiting for season 2 from Netflix. That and season 2 of Burn Notice.

There's new episodes of Justified and South Park on this week.

179 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:49:46pm

re: #164 Walter L. Newton

There is a whole section of the bill in regards to the Health are Workforce... which is a combination of medical personal and facilities who have benefitted from educational subsidy programs and student loans, and these people will give a portion of their career to this community health services.

This is not new, simply an expansion of a already existing program. Of course, since this is now going to be instigated on a much larger scale than it's existing form, there is new oversight and portions of the bill that deal with this expansion.

cool, thanks...they better get their ass in gear for 32m new customers that want to test the waters...first we subsidize the care, then we subsidize the care workers, then we subsidize the facilities...sounds like socialized health care to me...I hope it works out as well for you as it has for me amigo

180 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:49:46pm

re: #177 prairiefire

I do.

181 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:50:37pm

re: #159 Decatur Deb

More like "insourcing". We attract them, they assimilate, and all the while they are taxpayers.

Dear God, spare me from thousands of Indian doctors moving into my neighborhood! Anything but that!!!

("Mrs. Patel, while I'm here, I should tell you that I teach at an EXCELLENT Catholic high school right up the road, and we would be DELIGHTED to talk to you about Anjali attending next year.")

182 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:50:39pm

re: #172 Decatur Deb

We are adjusting to our new socialist medical overlords.

With the help of generously prescribed medications!

183 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:51:13pm

re: #177 prairiefire

Remember what I said, Hippies and bed pans.

Brain bleach, STAT!

184 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:51:19pm

re: #169 wozzablog

I hate to break it to you - so i will attempt to do so gently, please be sitting down for this - it may be you who in the end is proved wrong.

Nihilism, on the other hand will definitely not fix the system.

that's cool....it's not a matter of who's right or wrong...nihilism?, what's up with that?

185 EastSider  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:51:21pm

This is something that's been bothering me for a while. It seems the two main arguments against the bill have been that we shouldn't be providing healthcare to everybody, or, worse, that we can't.

For those that say we shouldn't: how do you morally justify the fact that people die every year for want of basic health services? We can spend billions on two wars with intangible (at best) safety benefits to our country but can't pony up for healthcare with direct life-saving consequences? Its a basic lack of empathy that's appaling.

For those that say we can't: Seriously, which country did you grow up in? We won World War II, put a man on the moon, and defeated Communism without firing a missile. We can damn well take care of our own people. For a group that makes it a point to wave the flag all the live long day, maybe you should think about the kind of exceptionalism that symbol implies and how if we put our minds and full force of our ingenuity against something we can achieve anything.

/rant

186 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:51:34pm

re: #176 Walter L. Newton

Nope. I have an american gf of some months and always been more interested in US politics than that of the UK.

Also - the USA seems to hold my native timezone - given its almost 3am and i feel fresh as a daisy.

187 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:51:42pm

re: #135 EastSider

careful, some of that may have been a one off part of the stimulus package passed early in Obama's first term--aka the least well publicized tax cut in the history of tax cuts.

Plus the 1% interest rate you can get right now on savings ain't too appealing.


I'd probably boost my monthly drafts into my investments, or just use it for extra household cash.

Which reminds me: A decent mid-level investment I've got is Series I savings bonds. These are not like the Series EE, which grow at some rock bottom rate for 30 years until they get to face value. The Series I is purchased at face value, and grows at the rate of inflation plus 1.1%, for 30 years. Right now mine are pulling a bit more than 4%. That beats a savings account all hollow & is better than most CD accounts at the moment. And if inflation ever really comes back, 70s style, they'll be a nice little lifeline.

188 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:52:13pm

re: #172 Decatur Deb

We are adjusting to our new socialist medical overlords.

I'm in talks with them for a job as a FEMA Camp administrator. I'm alreay working on my lines:

"We have ways of making you love Dear Leader Obama!"

/Entirely kidding

189 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:52:37pm

re: #11 SanFranciscoZionist

Hey--over at the Blogmocracy, someone is referring to Stupak Shakur.

Now that is stupid, but funny.

Its sorta like when Rush Limbaugh referred to Tom Daschle as Puff Daschle, and Louis Farrakhan as "Calypso Louie". He can sometimes be funny when he's not being evil.

190 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:53:10pm

re: #188 Dark_Falcon

Can I get a double wide trailer?
I'll use the second half as a pharmacy.
//

191 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:53:38pm

re: #181 SanFranciscoZionist

Dear God, spare me from thousands of Indian doctors moving into my neighborhood! Anything but that!!!

("Mrs. Patel, while I'm here, I should tell you that I teach at an EXCELLENT Catholic high school right up the road, and we would be DELIGHTED to talk to you about Anjali attending next year.")

An old NPR essay stated that an amazing proportion of hotel keepers are named "Patel", many originating in a perticular village. I think it's Hindi for "Smith" or "Carter".

192 Digital Display  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:53:38pm

re: #166 Cannadian Club Akbar

Charlie is a troofer as well.

What a dick!
So I'm watching the Maltese Falcon..Bogart is sweet talking Mary Astor as he is rolling a home made cigarette.. He rolls the perfect Cig as a matter of fact and lights it..And just smooth as hell keeps talking...
I haven't seen this movie since I was a kid.. You miss all that stuff...Bogart was a stud

193 keloyd  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:53:48pm

Ojoe -

Are your ears burning, or if you're ethnically Japanese, are you having a sneezing fit? Here's why. Keith Olbermann just mentioned the Whig party, but in a snarky way.
re: #178 Mad Al-Jaffee

...Justified...


That made a very good first impression, kind of a country fried The Shield. We really are in a golden era of TV. All the competition from 100 channels and the internet has made writing and plots genuinely better, if you dig a bit.

194 WindHorse  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:53:50pm

re: #185 EastSider

I agree with your perspective..... we should provide health care to everyone who needs it.... BUT, is letting the government do it the right answer?

195 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:53:52pm

re: #186 wozzablog

Face it, American politics are about 100% cooler than the rest of the world put together :P

196 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:53:55pm

re: #186 wozzablog

Nope. I have an american gf of some months and always been more interested in US politics than that of the UK.

Also - the USA seems to hold my native timezone - given its almost 3am and i feel fresh as a daisy.

so is nihilism with regard to American health care some sort of Euro meme?

197 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:54:11pm

OT -

Just a reminder... tomorrow night Season Six the final season, Episode Nine of LOST "Ab Aeterno" (for ever, for eternity, for many years) for those who have been "jonesing" for the backstory of Richard Alpert (Mr. Eyeliner)... this is the episode... how does Richard and the Black Rock figure into the mystery?

198 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:54:12pm

I think the Nurse Practitioners, Mid-wives, Medical and Physician assistant programs will be full of candidates. We will have to be really sick or be high-risk to actually see a doctor.

I already see a lot of these professions take charge in the Chicago-area. So, far it has worked well for my visits. In the offices I visit, you can always see the doctor, but the wait for an appointment is longer. And, honestly, for a sinus infection or annual female exam, I don't need to see the doctor.

My only concern is that it will be harder and harder to see an actual doctor.

199 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:54:23pm

re: #185 EastSider

This is something that's been bothering me for a while. It seems the two main arguments against the bill have been that we shouldn't be providing healthcare to everybody, or, worse, that we can't.

For those that say we shouldn't: how do you morally justify the fact that people die every year for want of basic health services? We can spend billions on two wars with intangible (at best) safety benefits to our country but can't pony up for healthcare with direct life-saving consequences? Its a basic lack of empathy that's appaling.

For those that say we can't: Seriously, which country did you grow up in? We won World War II, put a man on the moon, and defeated Communism without firing a missile. We can damn well take care of our own people. For a group that makes it a point to wave the flag all the live long day, maybe you should think about the kind of exceptionalism that symbol implies and how if we put our minds and full force of our ingenuity against something we can achieve anything.

/rant

Agreed. I am somewhat in shock at arguments that seem to suggest that we believe we can operate with 10% of our population having only scant access to healthcare, and that we cannot possibly provide for everyone.

We damn well can, and we damn well should.

Argue anything with me, but don't argue that this country, of all nations in the world, must maintain a medical underclass to operate.

200 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:54:36pm

re: #189 WindUpBird

Its sorta like when Rush Limbaugh referred to Tom Daschle as Puff Daschle, and Louis Farrakhan as "Calypso Louie". He can sometimes be funny when he's not being evil.

that's not evil...grow a pair

201 Gus  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:54:44pm

Some facts.

Foreign trained physicians practicing in the USA already represent 23% of the physician in practice.

The United States is served by physicians who received medical degrees in 127 different countries. Out of the total population of 874,589 physicians, 198,703 — or 22.72 percent — trained in medical schools outside the U.S. or Canada. The following list shows the 20 countries in which the largest numbers of U.S. physicians trained. This data does not represent citizenship or ethnic origin — it only represents the location of medical schools.

Easing the credential burden - AMA

Keep in mind that it does not "represent citizenship or ethnic origin" but could be used as general guideline. The top 5 include:

India 38,104 19.18%
Philippines 19,051 9.59%
Mexico 11,560 5.82%
Pakistan 8,758 4.41%
Dominican Republic 6,666 3.35%

202 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:54:45pm

re: #184 albusteve

Political nihilism

Political nihilism, a branch of nihilism, following the characteristic nihilist's rejection of non-rationalized or non-proven assertions in this case the necessity of the most fundamental social and political structures, such as government,

203 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:55:04pm

re: #195 windsagio

Face it, American politics are about 100% cooler than the rest of the world put together :P

No way. Ever watch the House of Commons? (I think that's what it is called)

204 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:55:05pm

re: #195 windsagio

Face it, American politics are about 100% cooler than the rest of the world put together :P

If I could live anywhere in the world, right now, with a job, it would be France.

205 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:55:07pm

re: #182 Floral Giraffe

With the help of generously prescribed medications!

"A civilized society needs a few pleasant little vices" --paraphrased from ? Aldous Huxley ?.

206 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:55:22pm

re: #196 albusteve

I think that you're a Nihilist too :D

(video picked to be offensive, stay off my case :P)

207 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:55:51pm

re: #204 Walter L. Newton

Germany for me.

208 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:56:21pm

re: #191 Decatur Deb

An old NPR essay stated that an amazing proportion of hotel keepers are named "Patel", many originating in a perticular village. I think it's Hindi for "Smith" or "Carter".

It's a very common Vaisya name, the Vaisya being the traditional merchant caste. And yes, basically Hindi for 'Smith'.

209 darthstar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:56:38pm

Took a second to check out what Anderson Cooper was discussing on his show...the headline: "Obama's Plunge in the Polls"...WTF? President Obama is still over 50% approval. How is that a "plunge"? And with Health Care passing, his numbers are only going to rise.

Oh, well. Someone's got to hype up controversy where there is none.

210 prairiefire  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:57:06pm

re: #199 SanFranciscoZionist

Thanks, SFZ, for reminding me how much I like your typing!

211 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:57:20pm

re: #198 ggt

I think the Nurse Practitioners, Mid-wives, Medical and Physician assistant programs will be full of candidates. We will have to be really sick or be high-risk to actually see a doctor.

I already see a lot of these professions take charge in the Chicago-area. So, far it has worked well for my visits. In the offices I visit, you can always see the doctor, but the wait for an appointment is longer. And, honestly, for a sinus infection or annual female exam, I don't need to see the doctor.

My only concern is that it will be harder and harder to see an actual doctor.

the pipeline gets severely restricted with RN and allied programs...nobody tells the nursing academics what to do...and I mean nobody...they will feed the system at their own leisurely pace...they consider themselves super heros, above normal humans

212 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:57:23pm

Here's a good article by David Frum:

How GOP can rebound from its 'Waterloo'

Check it out, it's worth a read.

213 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:57:27pm

re: #207 windsagio

Anywhere with my girlfriend and a system of healthcare with minimal out of pocket exspenses.

She has fairly comprehensive coverage through her job - but her deductables and co-pays are something else.

214 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:57:27pm

re: #209 darthstar

Took a second to check out what Anderson Cooper was discussing on his show...the headline: "Obama's Plunge in the Polls"...WTF? President Obama is still over 50% approval. How is that a "plunge"? And with Health Care passing, his numbers are only going to rise.

Oh, well. Someone's got to hype up controversy where there is none.

I saw a poll that had him at around 43%.

215 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:57:42pm

re: #203 Cannadian Club Akbar

Don't make me link Boner saying "Shame on you all!"

/actually you're right, Indonesia and THailand where they like to throw desks are cooler than us too >>

216 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:57:42pm

re: #207 windsagio

Germany for me.

Wow... we'd almost be neighbors. Getting a work visa in France is not easy, I've tried, even when I had a job offer in France through a British contracting firm, they couldn't get the visa.

217 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:57:58pm

Night night all.

218 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:58:09pm

re: #202 wozzablog

what are you, a dictionary?

219 webevintage  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:58:18pm

re: #197 Walter L. Newton

OT -

Just a reminder... tomorrow night Season Six the final season, Episode Nine of LOST "Ab Aeterno" (for ever, for eternity, for many years) for those who have been "jonesing" for the backstory of Richard Alpert (Mr. Eyeliner)... this is the episode... how does Richard and the Black Rock figure into the mystery?

Finally.
I do feel like I have waited forever for this specific episode.

Plus Richard Alpert is just so damn pretty....

220 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:58:20pm

re: #215 windsagio

Don't make me link Boner saying "Shame on you all!"

/actually you're right, Indonesia and THailand where they like to throw desks are cooler than us too >>

That shit ROCKS!!!

221 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:58:28pm

re: #214 Cannadian Club Akbar

I saw a poll that had him at around 43%.

That's pretty damn good, considering the economy an' all.

222 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:58:36pm

re: #213 wozzablog

my experience of 2 weeks ago:

"My insurance was better than I thought, I'll only be 7200 out of pocket rather than 12,600!"

223 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:58:40pm

re: #190 Floral Giraffe

Can I get a double wide trailer?
I'll use the second half as a pharmacy.
//

Sure. You're 'on the team', and that means the Chicago Rules say you get preferential treatment.

//

224 prairiefire  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:58:41pm

re: #212 Dark_Falcon

He had to close comments on that one. Something that rarely happens at FF.

225 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:58:54pm

re: #193 keloyd


That made a very good first impression, kind of a country fried The Shield. We really are in a golden era of TV. All the competition from 100 channels and the internet has made writing and plots genuinely better, if you dig a bit.

I like it because it's based on one of my favorite Elmore Leonard characters. The pilot was really good, and I think the show is going to get even better.

226 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:59:17pm

re: #196 albusteve

Nope not really, i just don't think you have a particularly optimistic view of the government personally - and reject it almost fndamentally despite any arguments made in its favour.

227 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:59:31pm

re: #216 Walter L. Newton

yeah, its too hard to actually move.

Iceland is easy, if you wnana live in Iceland!

228 keloyd  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:59:36pm

re: #189 WindUpBird

Is it just another wacky theory of mine, or was Rush just better 10 years ago? Let's not say "good", or "thoughtful" or "deep," but better than now. When the pre-internet, pre-big-cable-infotainment "media" was 3 channels, the case for liberal bias was stronger, and he had a bit more of a case to make. When Dan Rather was throwing tantrums and snarking on Bush the Elder, someone needed to question The System. Nowadays, he's just a sad, bullying, dog whistle blowing performer.

229 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:59:44pm

re: #218 albusteve

In a previous life.

it didn't pay.

230 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:59:47pm

re: #203 Cannadian Club Akbar

No way. Ever watch the House of Commons? (I think that's what it is called)

Best comedy show on C-SPAN!

231 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 7:59:53pm

re: #201 Gus 802

Some facts.

Foreign trained physicians practicing in the USA already represent 23% of the physician in practice.
India 38,104 19.18%
Philippines 19,051 9.59%
Mexico 11,560 5.82%
Pakistan 8,758 4.41%
Dominican Republic 6,666 3.35%

Interesting list. I'm looking for docs in refuge from "socialized" western nations.

232 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:00:05pm

re: #167 albusteve

it's the new Gold Rush!...health care jobs we cannot provide

Right now our system is actually doing that. it's not reform that created the shortage of general practictioners in rural neighborhoods and the flood towards being a specialist. That was what our system encouraged. Our "free market" encouraged a lack of GPs, because specialists pay better. It'd be like if our fire departments were privatized, and everyone only wanted to fight high-rise fires, so poor neighborhoods and rural neighborhoods had no fire departments. Free market!

There may be some short-term hurt, there may not be. But in the long term, the current system without reform was completely unsustainable.

233 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:00:20pm

re: #206 windsagio

I think that you're a Nihilist too :D

(video picked to be offensive, stay off my case :P)

and I think you are an egotistical jerk...so what?...I don't open your links no matter how many you post...you can keep trying tho

234 Gus  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:00:32pm

re: #231 Decatur Deb

Interesting list. I'm looking for docs in refuge from "socialized" western nations.

Did you try Conservapedia?

/

235 WindHorse  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:01:09pm

re: #209 darthstar

huh?

[Link: news.blogs.cnn.com...]

236 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:01:18pm

re: #233 albusteve

ouch, the truth hurts :(

237 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:01:50pm

re: #204 Walter L. Newton

If I could live anywhere in the world, right now, with a job, it would be France.

For me, it'd be Portland Oregon. :D

I'd vist Belgium and Germany! But I wouldn't live anywhere else on earth but here, no matter how many zeroes I had in the bank. The only difference is, I'd have a bigger house in Portland, and more sports cars.

238 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:02:13pm

re: #226 wozzablog

Nope not really, i just don't think you have a particularly optimistic view of the government personally - and reject it almost fndamentally despite any arguments made in its favour.

I ask how we will deal with a potential shortage of professionals and suddenly I'm a nihilist!....ahaha....that's why you don't count....you are a poodle, woof!

239 palomino  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:02:35pm

Just in case anyone was wondering what the GOP's campaign strategy will be regarding healthcare, here's one of the party's most respected intellectuals.

Yesterday Newt Gingrich outlined the Republican strategy going forward, saying that the Democrats “will have destroyed their party much as Lyndon Johnson shattered the Democratic Party for forty years” by signing civil rights into law. Leave aside the deep cynicism of this view of racial equality: Gingrich was expressing the Republican belief that health-care reform will be so unpopular that it will reduce the Democrats to minority status for two generations.

That's right, the GOP's forward looking response is to turn the clock back to 1968 and run some variation on the Southern Strategy. (Slight problem: that playbook is just a little out of date; it would work about as well a "3 yards and a cloud of dust" wishbone offense would work in the today's NFL.)

240 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:02:51pm

re: #185 EastSider

This is something that's been bothering me for a while. It seems the two main arguments against the bill have been that we shouldn't be providing healthcare to everybody, or, worse, that we can't.

For those that say we shouldn't: how do you morally justify the fact that people die every year for want of basic health services? We can spend billions on two wars with intangible (at best) safety benefits to our country but can't pony up for healthcare with direct life-saving consequences? Its a basic lack of empathy that's appaling.

For those that say we can't: Seriously, which country did you grow up in? We won World War II, put a man on the moon, and defeated Communism without firing a missile. We can damn well take care of our own people. For a group that makes it a point to wave the flag all the live long day, maybe you should think about the kind of exceptionalism that symbol implies and how if we put our minds and full force of our ingenuity against something we can achieve anything.

/rant

Believe it or don't, we actually do care quite a lot about the poor, the blind, the sick, the lame, and the halt. Our fear is that our nation will be financially ruined AND that the goals of the bill will not be met in the end anyway. Like so many of LBJ's Great Society programs just amounted to flinging money out of the back of a speeding train, and did not ease the ills they were supposed to address.

241 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:02:55pm

re: #224 prairiefire

He had to close comments on that one. Something that rarely happens at FF.

He went after Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh. If he did not close the comments, he'd have gotten a river of flame from enraged wingnuts.

242 darthstar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:03:07pm

re: #214 Cannadian Club Akbar

I saw a poll that had him at around 43%.

Looks like they're starting to perk up

243 webevintage  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:03:56pm

Ezra Klien had a huge amount of information about HC today.
[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

244 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:04:10pm

re: #242 darthstar

Americans love a winner.

245 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:04:26pm

re: #240 The Sanity Inspector

Believe it or don't, we actually do care quite a lot about the poor, the blind, the sick, the lame, and the halt. Our fear is that our nation will be financially ruined AND that the goals of the bill will not be met in the end anyway. Like so many of LBJ's Great Society programs just amounted to flinging money out of the back of a speeding train, and did not ease the ills they were supposed to address.

I still haven't figured-out who are these people who are dying because of lack of health-care in this country?

illegal immigrants?

246 darthstar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:04:44pm

re: #241 Dark_Falcon

He went after Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh. If he did not close the comments, he'd have gotten a river of flame from enraged wingnuts.

Yes, one should never impugn the dignity of the party leaders.

247 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:04:57pm

re: #238 albusteve

I ask how we will deal with a potential shortage of professionals and suddenly I'm a nihilist!...ahaha...that's why you don't count...you are a poodle, woof!

We already have a REAL shortage of professionals, Steve.

We have a GP shortage right now. We have it because of our current system. I'd link you to evidence of this, but you keep telling us you don't care. ;-)

248 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:05:00pm

re: #242 darthstar

Looks like they're starting to perk up

[Link: www.rasmussenreports.com...]

249 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:05:42pm

re: #236 windsagio

ouch, the truth hurts :(

notice you don't contribute....you judge, you stalk, you add little if nothing...how do you think we will deal with the new numbers of patients?...instead of distracting and calling me names, offer some dialog

250 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:05:54pm

re: #238 albusteve

If you reckon i drew my assertion from that one comment of yours - please, be my guest.

251 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:06:22pm

re: #247 WindUpBird

We already have a REAL shortage of professionals, Steve.

We have a GP shortage right now. We have it because of our current system. I'd link you to evidence of this, but you keep telling us you don't care. ;-)

Every doctor I know that has gotten out of medicine, well 1, and those that I talk to about thoeir concerns --it is about insurance bullshit and malpractice rates.

252 palomino  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:07:31pm

re: #238 albusteve

I ask how we will deal with a potential shortage of professionals and suddenly I'm a nihilist!...ahaha...that's why you don't count...you are a poodle, woof!

"You don't count"? WTF? Are you channeling Breitbart now?

253 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:08:03pm

re: #249 albusteve

Putting aside the mask for a second, exchanging jibes with you is like playing with a marionette. You need to be less predictable if you wanna try to get a good response, as it is, its barely fun to play with you.

254 darthstar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:08:43pm

re: #248 Cannadian Club Akbar

[Link: www.rasmussenreports.com...]

Rasmussen consistently polls below the rest of the group. If you look at the aggregate numbers, he's doing okay.

Gallup's daily tracking shows him upticking

255 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:09:19pm

re: #220 Cannadian Club Akbar

That shit ROCKS!!!

Don't it, though!

Youtube Video
256 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:09:32pm

re: #248 Cannadian Club Akbar

[Link: www.rasmussenreports.com...]

Still, that -12 from Rasmussen is up from the -21 it used to be.

257 Jadespring  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:09:46pm

re: #251 ggt

Every doctor I know that has gotten out of medicine, well 1, and those that I talk to about thoeir concerns --it is about insurance bullshit and malpractice rates.

One of the doctors that I occasionally saw at a clinic I used to go was American. When I asked why he came to Canada he said he left for those reasons.

258 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:10:00pm

re: #251 ggt

Every doctor I know that has gotten out of medicine, well 1, and those that I talk to about thoeir concerns --it is about insurance bullshit and malpractice rates.

I'm not even talking about those! I'm talking about the ones who stay in the system as specialists, abandoning being actual general prac because it doesn't pay enough.

I'm actually way more for socializing malpractice insurance that I am for socializing medicine. Malpractice is breaking the backs of doctors, let's take it off the table. We currently have shocking numbers of useless, expensive tests performed on people because of the current corrupt system, and the reform is changing that.

I'm perfectly fine with a regulated insurance industry as long as the insurers behave ethically, and there's a real pool for freelancers so we can afford insurance.

Believe it or not, that makes me a moderate on this issue, because I'm not married to single payer or a public option.

259 Gus  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:10:00pm

re: #247 WindUpBird

We already have a REAL shortage of professionals, Steve.

We have a GP shortage right now. We have it because of our current system. I'd link you to evidence of this, but you keep telling us you don't care. ;-)

Exactly. It's just misinformation being used to create a climate of fear. Hence the "there will be a shortage of doctors" in the USA. Well, as you correctly point out, there's already a shortage of US trained doctors. That number is as I noted earlier about 23% which are foreign trained.

USA Today has an article that touches upon the reasons behind the shortage. Keep in mind that this is from 2007 so the number would have increased.

U.S. savior: Foreign doctors

Few new medical schools

Why is this shortage happening?

First, the USA has opened almost no new medical schools in the past 25 years. So you have a physician population that has remained flat serving a U.S. population that is expected to grow by 25% between 2000 and 2025. Major demographic changes in the physician population also must be considered. Nearly one-third of doctors are older than 55, with more choosing early retirement. Fifty percent of all medical school graduates are now women. That is affecting both the total hours worked each year as well as the number of specialists. Family demands are causing many women to reduce their hours or to leave the profession when they have children. Some women doctors avoid fields with difficult call hours, such as anesthesiology and radiology.

Continues

Selective process

We're also losing more physicians as they finish training here. One reason is that physician shortages are growing in other countries as well. Australia and Britain have extreme shortages. Australia's shortage is so severe that it has relaxed requirements.

Many doctors are also engaged in cutting-edge research at some of the leading U.S. laboratories. One chief reason much of our best research is done by foreign graduates is because of the way they are chosen to come here. Every American medical student gets selected for residency and fellowship training programs. After that, we have 5,760 slots to fill. About a third of those go to American medical students who went abroad for medical school. The rest go to foreign nationals educated overseas.

Continues

260 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:10:05pm

re: #254 darthstar

Rasmussen consistently polls below the rest of the group. If you look at the aggregate numbers, he's doing okay.

Gallup's daily tracking shows him upticking

Honestly, I hate polls. Politicians use them to decide what they believe in. Integrity isn't an issue in DC.

261 Van Helsing  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:10:09pm

re: #251 ggt

Every doctor I know that has gotten out of medicine, well 1, and those that I talk to about thoeir concerns --it is about insurance bullshit and malpractice rates.

And trying to plan the business side of a practice with the uncertainty of the amount that Medicare/Medicaid (if they are still participating) will be funded for. That would be the 'doctor fix' that has been mentioned. Congress says they will cut payment amounts for certain services, but so far have not.

262 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:10:32pm

re: #252 palomino

"You don't count"? WTF? Are you channeling Breitbart now?

You haven't heard him say that? he says that every day. No worries, it's just a thing he says ;-)

263 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:10:39pm

re: #245 ggt

There are hundreds of personal stories like this available -

[Link: www.fiercehealthcare.com...]

It happens to American citizens. On a more regular basis than anyone would like to imagine.

264 WindHorse  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:11:02pm

re: #254 darthstar

your #209 says that Obama is "still above 50%". By all accounts, he may be (now) just slightly above 50% (for the first time in awhile).

265 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:11:32pm

re: #253 windsagio

Putting aside the mask for a second, exchanging jibes with you is like playing with a marionette. You need to be less predictable if you wanna try to get a good response, as it is, its barely fun to play with you.

Steve does a valuable job here. He has been a whetstone--making us lefties and others sharpen our arguments.

266 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:11:54pm

re: #259 Gus 802

The doctor shortage thing borders on concern trolling. Not like individuals here ARE concern trolling, it's that the talking point is just that, a talking point tailor made as a GOP concern troll. It's a fallback position. "Well, now that it's passed, I portend DOOM! DOOM! NO DOCTORS! DOOMED!"

267 palomino  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:11:54pm

re: #262 WindUpBird

You haven't heard him say that? he says that every day. No worries, it's just a thing he says ;-)

It sounds very Breitbartian. Indeed he's the only person I've heard say that since 4th grade.

268 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:11:57pm

re: #232 WindUpBird

Right now our system is actually doing that. it's not reform that created the shortage of general practictioners in rural neighborhoods and the flood towards being a specialist. That was what our system encouraged. Our "free market" encouraged a lack of GPs, because specialists pay better. It'd be like if our fire departments were privatized, and everyone only wanted to fight high-rise fires, so poor neighborhoods and rural neighborhoods had no fire departments. Free market!

There may be some short-term hurt, there may not be. But in the long term, the current system without reform was completely unsustainable.

the insurance system may be reformed, but the process of educating our own professionals has not...I'm thinking of an environment where kids don't want to get into the medical business that is flooded with foreigners and fewer prospects for good jobs...just wondering if this will be a long term problem, or no problem at all...I know from my own experience that allied health is very restricted in terms of class size etc

269 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:12:11pm

re: #264 WindHorse

Reagans first term ratings followed a similar path i seem to have read somewhere.

270 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:12:35pm

re: #265 Decatur Deb

Steve does a valuable job here. He has been a whetstone--making us lefties and others sharpen our arguments.

That's a good quote! I consider guys like Racer X a better whetstone, but Steve grows on me.

271 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:12:59pm

re: #227 windsagio

yeah, its too hard to actually move.

Iceland is easy, if you wnana live in Iceland!

Iceland is cool.

272 EastSider  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:13:18pm

re: #240 The Sanity Inspector

Believe it or don't, we actually do care quite a lot about the poor, the blind, the sick, the lame, and the halt. Our fear is that our nation will be financially ruined AND that the goals of the bill will not be met in the end anyway. Like so many of LBJ's Great Society programs just amounted to flinging money out of the back of a speeding train, and did not ease the ills they were supposed to address.

its a tough problem, I'll give you that. The insurance companies and medical industry best step up their games b/c things are about to get a lot hairier, and to albusteve's continuous point, a lot tighter. I for one would have preferred a single-payer nationalized system (I suppose that makes me a goddamned socialist?), if only for the simplicity and cost savings in an economy of scale and the fact that gov't health programs have a better efficiency (health expenditure/total premium dollars) ratio than private insurance companies. But republicans successfully negotiated that away, as well as the potential public option, in exchange for their votes reasoned debate hyperbolic rhetoric.

273 WindHorse  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:13:27pm

re: #269 wozzablog

hah! comparing Obama to Reagan! Thanks for a good laugh!

274 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:13:34pm

re: #245 ggt

I still haven't figured-out who are these people who are dying because of lack of health-care in this country?

illegal immigrants?

It's like the proverbial two million homeless people during the Reagan years. The number was reported endlessly, until the activist who originally fed it to the media admitted that he just pulled it out of his hat.

/and concern with factual reporting in no way suggests lack of empathy with people who really are having a hard time out there.

275 darthstar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:13:40pm

re: #260 Cannadian Club Akbar

Honestly, I hate polls. Politicians use them to decide what they believe in. Integrity isn't an issue in DC.

On that I agree with you.

276 Uninformed Opinion  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:14:31pm

re: #31 albusteve

and finance our debt...in other words we are China's bitch

I hear this all the time, and its not as good an argument as people think. Serious economic warfare between the PRC and USA will be bad for them too. It is generally a bad idea to severely devalue your own assets...

277 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:14:39pm

re: #268 albusteve

the insurance system may be reformed, but the process of educating our own professionals has not...I'm thinking of an environment where kids don't want to get into the medical business that is flooded with foreigners and fewer prospects for good jobs...just wondering if this will be a long term problem, or no problem at all...I know from my own experience that allied health is very restricted in terms of class size etc

Nursing and med schools are crazy tough to get into, yes. I'm not sure how to solve the professional education issue, without reforming our college system. it's becoming prohibitively expensive to go to college for anything, let alone to become a nurse prac or a doctor.

278 Van Helsing  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:14:39pm

re: #271 SanFranciscoZionist

Iceland is cool.

Getting warmer - Volcano

279 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:14:46pm

re: #247 WindUpBird

We already have a REAL shortage of professionals, Steve.

We have a GP shortage right now. We have it because of our current system. I'd link you to evidence of this, but you keep telling us you don't care. ;-)

I know that...mine just opted out for a teaching job...I have been both an RN and a Rad Tech...I was married to an ER nurse for 20 years...I know something about this subject and don't recall ever saying I didn't care

280 freetoken  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:15:03pm

re: #259 Gus 802

Yeah, but Gus, they're foreigners. Immigrants.

Don't you want the jobs to go to real Americans?

Heh....

281 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:15:27pm

re: #265 Decatur Deb

re: #270 WindUpBird

I just want him to improve his material, its like if Steve Martin was still doing the 'arrow through the head' gag today.

282 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:15:29pm

re: #269 wozzablog

Reagans first term ratings followed a similar path i seem to have read somewhere.

Yea. That's why he carried 49 States in 1984.

283 Uninformed Opinion  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:15:35pm

re: #271 SanFranciscoZionist

Iceland is cool.

if you like sulfur and ice.

284 Mr. Crankypants  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:15:42pm

Frankly, there needs to be a move away from fee for service to more of a budgeted amount with bonuses for high performance. If you keep your hospital readmissions down and your infection rates down, you get more money.

The idea that doctors should get paid by piecework seems a bit off kilter to me.

285 jaunte  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:15:51pm

Economy forces some medical schools to shrink classes

In June 2006, the AAMC responded by undertaking an effort to expand medical school enrollments by 30% nationwide by 2015 (after initially suggesting 15% growth). To meet the goal, U.S. medical schools would need to enroll 21,434 first year students in 2015 — nearly 5,000 more than they did in 2002, when first-year enrollments totaled 16,488.
(snip)
By last fall, enrollments had grown 11.5% over 2002 levels, with 18,390 students in the entering class. Close to 200 of those seats were in medical schools that opened in 2009: Commonwealth Medical College in Scranton, Pa.; Florida International University College of Medicine in Miami; Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center's Paul L. Foster School of Medicine in El Paso; and the University of Central Florida College of Medicine in Orlando.
(snip)
But economic realities are clearly having an effect on just how quickly medical schools are being created and expanding. And even in good economic times, it might be a stretch to add 3,000 seats in half a dozen years.
286 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:15:59pm

re: #273 WindHorse

They have both increased national debt to clean up messes left by their predecessors, both transformative figures in their party............
There is a list.

287 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:16:13pm

re: #252 palomino

"You don't count"? WTF? Are you channeling Breitbart now?

don't know...are you a poodle too?

288 WindHorse  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:16:19pm

re: #283 Uninformed Opinion

and butchie, short haired chicks....

289 HappyWarrior  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:16:43pm

re: #269 wozzablog

Reagans first term ratings followed a similar path i seem to have read somewhere.

I've heard the same thing actually. Lot can happen between now and 2012. Kristol's new claim that November 6th 2012 will be Obama's Waterloo is laughable at this time but so is predicting a great victory too. All depends on who they run and how they run their campaign. It's weird when Romney seems the most sane of the possible candidates.

290 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:16:46pm

re: #281 windsagio

re: #270 WindUpBird

I just want him to improve his material, its like if Steve Martin was still doing the 'arrow through the head' gag today.

The classics never get old.

291 WindHorse  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:17:07pm

re: #286 wozzablog

....like I'd said... thanks for a good laugh!

292 Uninformed Opinion  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:17:13pm

re: #288 WindHorse

and butchie, short haired chicks...

pickled goat head.

293 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:17:30pm

re: #253 windsagio

Putting aside the mask for a second, exchanging jibes with you is like playing with a marionette. You need to be less predictable if you wanna try to get a good response, as it is, its barely fun to play with you.

fuck off and quit stalking me

294 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:17:36pm

re: #282 Cannadian Club Akbar

This explains better than i can - the similarity in personal polling numbers was pointed out a couple of months back.

[Link: www.pollster.com...]

295 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:18:01pm

re: #240 The Sanity Inspector

Believe it or don't, we actually do care quite a lot about the poor, the blind, the sick, the lame, and the halt. Our fear is that our nation will be financially ruined AND that the goals of the bill will not be met in the end anyway. Like so many of LBJ's Great Society programs just amounted to flinging money out of the back of a speeding train, and did not ease the ills they were supposed to address.

Sanity, that would be easier for me to believe with a whole heart if so much of the argument even here did not consist of insisting that the poor, the blind, the sick, the lame and the halt did not even exist. That it was their 'choice' not to have access. That they DID have access. If I hadn't watched people nearly scream through the Internet that they owed no one nothing, and people could take care of themselves. If I was not seeing right now, people lying through their teeth across America tonight, insisting that this is legalizing federal funding for abortion.

I'm seeing a lot of lying happening, and pace LGF, less concern for fellow Americans than I'd like to see.

And that's making it hard for me to examine sane fiscal and social concerns separately from all of this.

I am trying.

296 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:18:03pm

re: #271 SanFranciscoZionist

Its nice, and having to learn Icelandic is cool, but Its cold and dark even by WA/OR standards >>

297 EastSider  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:18:29pm

re: #282 Cannadian Club Akbar

Yea. That's why he carried 49 States in 1984.

if palin's the candidate obama may get 50.

298 Gus  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:18:44pm

re: #280 freetoken

Yeah, but Gus, they're foreigners. Immigrants.

Don't you want the jobs to go to real Americans?

Heh...

That's exactly what I was thinking. What difference does it make were they're from as long as they're qualified. Last I checked this is a nation of immigrants. And yes I already came across a Vdare screed regarding this topic.

Earning a medical degree is just about cost prohibitive in this nation. Many of those people listed in data I posted are in fact American citizens who train outside of our borders.

299 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:18:46pm

re: #293 albusteve

I totally knew you'd say that!

300 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:18:48pm

re: #295 SanFranciscoZionist

Testify.

301 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:19:29pm

re: #276 Uninformed Opinion

I hear this all the time, and its not as good an argument as people think. Serious economic warfare between the PRC and USA will be bad for them too. It is generally a bad idea to severely devalue your own assets...

We've gone from being the world's largest creditor to being the world's largest debtor in my adult lifetime. There will be consequences.

302 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:19:40pm

re: #273 WindHorse

hah! comparing Obama to Reagan! Thanks for a good laugh!

partisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisan

Okay, now that we got that out of the way, Wozza is actually correct. Those are facts. Obama and Reagan have had very similar paths their first year in office. Deny them and continue to put partisanship over critical thinking, or don't.

I suspect the reason reagan is so fetishized is he's the only Republican president in the last few decades to go out on top.

Nixon? Impeached
Bush Senior? One term.
Gerald Ford? Not even one term.
Bush jr? Went out with an approval rating somewhere around Carrot Top's.

And then you have to go back to Eisenhower, who would be burned at the stake by Republicans today for what he said about the military industrial complex.

303 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:19:41pm

re: #245 ggt

I still haven't figured-out who are these people who are dying because of lack of health-care in this country?

illegal immigrants?

Tifanny Owens was born here, IIRC.

304 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:19:43pm

re: #291 WindHorse

If you can't laugh you cry.

305 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:19:51pm

re: #297 EastSider

if palin's the candidate obama may get 50.

I won't argue that point. But she won't be. But, still, heh!!

306 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:20:08pm

re: #280 freetoken

Yeah, but Gus, they're foreigners. Immigrants.

Don't you want the jobs to go to real Americans?

Heh...

YOU'RE AS COLD AS ICE

YOU'RE WILLING TO SACRIFICE MY LOOOOVE

307 MandyManners  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:20:41pm

As I posted this morning,...

Google's growing in other markets.

308 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:20:56pm

re: #282 Cannadian Club Akbar

Yea. That's why he carried 49 States in 1984.

So when you bring your time travelling Delorean back from 2012, can I park it?

309 palomino  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:21:01pm

re: #282 Cannadian Club Akbar

Yea. That's why he carried 49 States in 1984.

He carried 49 states largely because his opponent was Walter Mondale, the losing veep from the previous ticket and a terrible candidate.

Reagan was great, but he has been mythologized. He was a human and his approval numbers reflect that. Reagan's average approval rating over 8 years = 53%

310 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:21:12pm

re: #302 WindUpBird

I'm partisan, so I"m gonna say it again.

Reagan. Was. The. Most. Overrated. President. In. United. States. History.

your analysis of why makes alot of sense tho >

311 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:21:14pm

re: #279 albusteve

I know that...mine just opted out for a teaching job...I have been both an RN and a Rad Tech...I was married to an ER nurse for 20 years...I know something about this subject and don't recall ever saying I didn't care

My wife was an RN--the shortages are partly driven by the short average working life. It was about 5-7 years in her day, and that's what she did. (Went all the way through school to find out she couldn't stand doctors.)

312 webevintage  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:21:31pm

re: #289 HappyWarrior

I've heard the same thing actually. Lot can happen between now and 2012. Kristol's new claim that November 6th 2012 will be Obama's Waterloo is laughable at this time but so is predicting a great victory too.

Has he ever been right about anything?

313 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:21:36pm

re: #301 The Sanity Inspector

Higher interest payments.

314 palomino  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:21:48pm

re: #287 albusteve

don't know...are you a poodle too?

Poodle? I'm not the one slavishly quoting Breitbart.

315 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:21:57pm

re: #271 SanFranciscoZionist

Iceland is cool.

I though it was green?

316 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:22:02pm

re: #298 Gus 802

That's exactly what I was thinking. What difference does it make were they're from as long as they're qualified. Last I checked this is a nation of immigrants. And yes I already came across a Vdare screed regarding this topic.

Earning a medical degree is just about cost prohibitive in this nation. Many of those people listed in data I posted are in fact American citizens who train outside of our borders.

FREE MARKET!!111

317 Mr. Crankypants  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:22:02pm

re: #311 Decatur Deb

My wife was an RN--the shortages are partly driven by the short average working life. It was about 5-7 years in her day, and that's what she did. (Went all the way through school to find out she couldn't stand doctors.)

What's the different between a doctor and God?

God never thought he was a doctor.

318 WindHorse  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:22:12pm

re: #302 WindUpBird

sorry.... I am incapable of critical thinking.... you're wasting your time.

319 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:22:25pm

re: #274 The Sanity Inspector

It's like the proverbial two million homeless people during the Reagan years. The number was reported endlessly, until the activist who originally fed it to the media admitted that he just pulled it out of his hat.

/and concern with factual reporting in no way suggests lack of empathy with people who really are having a hard time out there.

Does something like this help?

320 Mr. Crankypants  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:22:51pm

re: #318 WindHorse

sorry... I am incapable of critical thinking... you're wasting your time.

Of course some people's version of critical thinking goes like this:

"I think you're an asshole!"

321 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:22:52pm

re: #308 WindUpBird

So when you bring your time travelling Delorean back from 2012, can I park it?

We were talking about poll numbers.

322 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:22:55pm

re: #310 windsagio

I'm partisan, so I"m gonna say it again.

Reagan. Was. The. Most. Overrated. President. In. United. States. History.

your analysis of why makes alot of sense tho >

You gotta go back FIFTY YEARS to find another republican president besides Reagan that didn't have a cloud over them.

323 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:22:58pm

re: #318 WindHorse

acknowledging you have a problem is the first step to getting better.

I applaud your brave step into the future.

324 Uninformed Opinion  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:23:02pm

re: #301 The Sanity Inspector

We've gone from being the world's largest creditor to being the world's largest debtor in my adult lifetime. There will be consequences.

uh, yeah, there will. But lets not act like the chinese have us tied in a sack. It is the wrong attitude for the situation. whining about the debt does not fix it, nor does us being a debtor change that china cannot tank our economy if they ever want a return.

325 EastSider  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:23:15pm

re: #302 WindUpBird

partisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpa rtisanpartisanpartisan

Okay, now that we got that out of the way, Wozza is actually correct. Those are facts. Obama and Reagan have had very similar paths their first year in office. Deny them and continue to put partisanship over critical thinking, or don't.

I suspect the reason reagan is so fetishized is he's the only Republican president in the last few decades to go out on top.

Nixon? Impeached
Bush Senior? One term.
Gerald Ford? Not even one term.
Bush jr? Went out with an approval rating somewhere around Carrot Top's.

And then you have to go back to Eisenhower, who would be burned at the stake by Republicans today for what he said about the military industrial complex.


sigh. I wish that was metaphorical and not literal.

326 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:23:29pm

re: #322 WindUpBird

well not counting the bizarrely unimportant Iran/Contra thing.

327 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:23:39pm

re: #318 WindHorse

Seemingly.

328 swamprat  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:23:50pm

re: #269 wozzablog

Reagans first term ratings followed a similar path i seem to have read somewhere.

Uh. Ok.

Got a feeling we're going to see more of this.

329 Mad Al-Jaffee  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:23:58pm

re: #302 WindUpBird

Nixon wasn't impeached.

330 WindHorse  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:24:01pm

re: #323 windsagio

where did I say that I think this is a problem?

331 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:24:14pm

re: #318 WindHorse

sorry... I am incapable of critical thinking... you're wasting your time.

Don't turn bacK! There's still help for your brain! :D


Seriously, it's not hard to google. Obama, Reagan. [Link: www.pollster.com...] Check that graph out. it's freaking uncanny.

332 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:24:23pm

re: #271 SanFranciscoZionist

Iceland is cool.

Isn't the lineage there traced via the mother, not the father?

333 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:24:25pm

re: #330 WindHorse

ohh no!

Dude, yo uwere so close to getting better!

334 MandyManners  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:24:32pm

Whatever. Who cares.

No matter where you sink your capital, you're about to be slammed all the hell and back on unearned-income taxes.

EAT THE RICH.

Youtube Video
335 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:24:44pm

re: #329 Mad Al-Jaffee

Nixon wasn't impeached.

And Clinton only lied under oath.

336 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:24:50pm

re: #277 WindUpBird

Nursing and med schools are crazy tough to get into, yes. I'm not sure how to solve the professional education issue, without reforming our college system. it's becoming prohibitively expensive to go to college for anything, let alone to become a nurse prac or a doctor.

a allied health degree is one hell of a good return...in 25 months you can go off on a wide open RN career...but the schools themselves, the programs will simply not allow enough students through...it's an identity problem with MAs and up in nursing...these people live in their own dreamworld, yet control the numbers of students through the system...they need to be made to expand and improve so as more people are attracted to and will get a degree in allied health...maybe federal regulation is the answer...but we are facing a surefire crisis soon come

337 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:24:52pm

re: #329 Mad Al-Jaffee

Nixon wasn't impeached.

And I wasn't kicked out of the seminary.

338 jaunte  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:25:02pm

High costs of medical education:
Why Aren’t More Students Applying To Medical School?

Did you know that there are only two applicants for every place in U.S. medical schools?
....

As an alternative, Princeton economist Uwe Reinhardt has proposed an intriguing solution. In a “Health Affairs” article titled “Dreaming The American Dream: Once More Around On Physician Workforce Policy” Reinhardt suggests that the government might create a “human capital market in which medical students could borrow the funds needed to pay for their own medical education”—and pay off the debt gradually, the way one pays off a mortgage. “A graduate’s indebtedness of, say, $200,000 upon entry into medical practice could be fully amortized over twenty-five years, at an interest rate of 8 percent, with annual payments of about $18,700,” Reinhardt explains. "If the payments were made tax-deductible, as they should be, the net burden on the physician might be no higher than half that amount. As Main Street enterprise goes, this is not an enormous debt-service burden.”
339 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:25:18pm

re: #332 eclectic infidel

Isn't the lineage there traced via the mother, not the father?

Don't think so. People use paternal surnames.

340 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:25:33pm

re: #334 MandyManners

God forbid we tax income, thats Unamerican!

341 MandyManners  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:25:36pm

re: #334 MandyManners

KORPORASHUNS R EEEBILLL.

342 WindHorse  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:25:55pm

Reagan had a sense of humor.... that is well documented isn't it?

Obama has a sense of self.

What else can be said?

343 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:26:04pm

re: #285 jaunte

Economy forces some medical schools to shrink classes

bad news...exactly what we don't need right now

344 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:26:09pm

re: #295 SanFranciscoZionist

Sanity, that would be easier for me to believe with a whole heart if so much of the argument even here did not consist of insisting that the poor, the blind, the sick, the lame and the halt did not even exist. That it was their 'choice' not to have access. That they DID have access. If I hadn't watched people nearly scream through the Internet that they owed no one nothing, and people could take care of themselves. If I was not seeing right now, people lying through their teeth across America tonight, insisting that this is legalizing federal funding for abortion.

I'm seeing a lot of lying happening, and pace LGF, less concern for fellow Americans than I'd like to see.

And that's making it hard for me to examine sane fiscal and social concerns separately from all of this.

I am trying.

The truly blind, poor, and underserved medically, IIRC, typically live in rural areas, where it isn't financially realistic to provide services. My 86 year old Uncle with Alzheimers, spent, over his lifetime a HORRIFIC ammount on medical care. The dentist, who travelled to see him, was the MOST caring, concerned, medical practitioner, I have EVER had the pleasure to do business with. BAR NONE. She did it, because she cared. The bills were very reasonable, and the service was outstanding. Such a great, caring professional. Serving the underserved. We need more of these!

345 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:26:10pm

re: #328 swamprat

Two term presidencys for transformative figures?

I do hope so.

346 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:26:15pm

re: #289 HappyWarrior

I've heard the same thing actually. Lot can happen between now and 2012. Kristol's new claim that November 6th 2012 will be Obama's Waterloo is laughable at this time but so is predicting a great victory too. All depends on who they run and how they run their campaign. It's weird when Romney seems the most sane of the possible candidates.

Romney on the Vote:

"America has just witnessed an unconscionable abuse of power. President Obama has betrayed his oath to the nation."

He just bowed to the Tea Party.

347 MandyManners  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:26:23pm

re: #340 windsagio

Do you really believe that?

348 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:26:25pm

re: #329 Mad Al-Jaffee

Nixon wasn't impeached.


I KNOW I KNOW, He resigned first, which is worse. because he knew he'd lose. ;-)

349 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:26:29pm

re: #341 MandyManners

KORPORASHUNS R EEEBILLL.

Evil is such an ugly word. Let's say that they can be overly aggressive on the playground, and need to learn to use their words.

350 Mr. Crankypants  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:26:48pm

re: #342 WindHorse

Reagan had a sense of humor... that is well documented isn't it?

Obama has a sense of self.

What else can be said?

Washington couldn't tell a lie
Clinton couldn't tell the truth
Reagan just couldn't tell the difference.

351 WindHorse  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:26:54pm

someone lay Pres. Obama's best joke on me.....

352 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:27:03pm

re: #342 WindHorse

It's Obama's sense of self that means he was selfless in putting his presidency on the line for helping others.

You are quite right.

353 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:27:03pm

re: #342 WindHorse

Reagan had a sense of humor... that is well documented isn't it?

Obama has a sense of self.

What else can be said?

Reagan was funny. I remember the line during the debate with Mondale. Good stuff.

354 MandyManners  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:27:08pm

re: #340 windsagio

God forbid we tax income, thats Unamerican!

I mean, that's just not logical.

355 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:27:16pm

re: #347 MandyManners

what, the outright content, or the implied content?

356 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:27:24pm

re: #253 windsagio

Putting aside the mask for a second, exchanging jibes with you is like playing with a marionette. You need to be less predictable if you wanna try to get a good response, as it is, its barely fun to play with you.

If only you were a tenth as clever as you think you are, I might actually enjoy your endless dribble of third rate ankle-bites.

357 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:27:39pm

re: #350 PT Barnum

guilty stifled laugh upding

358 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:28:07pm

re: #326 windsagio

well not counting the bizarrely unimportant Iran/Contra thing.

That's just a little discrepancy. Reagan is allowed to buddy buddy with Iranians because, man that smile! He wears that cowboy hat so well.

Think about what the right wing would do if Obama were embroiled in iran Contra. Imagine the rhetoric now? Times ten.

359 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:28:15pm

re: #311 Decatur Deb

My wife was an RN--the shortages are partly driven by the short average working life. It was about 5-7 years in her day, and that's what she did. (Went all the way through school to find out she couldn't stand doctors.)

heh...doctors...many were younger than me, and I can relate to your wife

360 freetoken  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:28:21pm

re: #298 Gus 802

Example: I have a chronic (and inherited), but minor, health problem that requires me to have a blood test every year or so, in order to get a script written.

I can't just go and order the test myself because then the insurance company won't cover it. Has to be a doctor.

But, and this is important, it doesn't have to be a doctor that graduated summa cum laude from Harvard Medical School! It's a simple blood test, I could fill the form out myself except I don't have "MD" after my name. Anybody with an MD, DO, or a Nurse Practitioner will do. It would be quite ok if some Indian doctor charged me some nominal amount to simply sign the form. I understand the disease quite well, and it can be taken care of with the smallest of effort.

So I'm quite fine with the importation of doctors from India, or where ever. Bring 'em in.

361 Mr. Crankypants  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:28:29pm

re: #357 wozzablog

guilty stifled laugh upding

THere's more where that came from..I was doing radio back in the 80s..one of the bits I did was thing called "Leave it To Deaver"

362 WindHorse  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:28:34pm

anyone who knows anything understands that humor = intelligence....

self-aggrandizing obsession.... not so much.

363 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:28:41pm

Who Are The Uninsured?

364 jaunte  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:28:50pm

re: #343 albusteve

bad news...exactly what we don't need right now

Yes, there's no time for resting on laurels, we need to figure out how to take care of increased health care demands right now.

365 keloyd  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:28:52pm

re: #272 EastSider and TheSanityInspector

I will go a little further still. We would have no Obamacare bill today if the Republicans had made even modest progress with the current system and market forces. IF Republicans used their majorities to do tort reform, reformed/bulked up medicaid/medicare just a little, broke up the quasi-monopolies of insurance companies, and regulated the industry in an ethical manner, we would have stolen the Democrats' thunder. Regulation of Interstate commerce is a perfectly legitimate role of gubment. In calmer times, Ron Paul himself may have gone along with outlawing preexisting conditions or other insurance shenanigans.

If typical Congressman Thurston Q. Republican III spends decades in the majority, allowing lobbyists to say rape is a preexisting condition, what do you think will happen? They (we! I am still Republican) didn't maintain the thing for decades and have only themselves to blame.

366 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:29:02pm

re: #356 Spare O'Lake

I love you too!

367 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:29:06pm

re: #346 Stanley Sea

Sarah is going to step on his toe with an exquisitely pointy shoe.

368 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:29:15pm

re: #362 WindHorse

anyone who knows anything understands that humor = intelligence...

self-aggrandizing obsession... not so much.

Just don't assume that people what you're seeing.

369 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:29:29pm

re: #356 Spare O'Lake

If only you were a tenth as clever as you think you are, I might actually enjoy your endless dribble of third rate ankle-bites.

That's an awful lot of qualifiers! I give this insult a C+. I'd have deleted the "third-rate", it doesn't flow.

370 HappyWarrior  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:29:54pm

re: #358 WindUpBird

That's just a little discrepancy. Reagan is allowed to buddy buddy with Iranians because, man that smile! He wears that cowboy hat so well.

Think about what the right wing would do if Obama were embroiled in iran Contra. Imagine the rhetoric now? Times ten.

I don't even wanna know. It still disturbs me that Oliver North was made in to a right wing hero over that. I give my former senator John Warner props though for refusing to endorse him in 1994. Good man that Warner.

371 Uninformed Opinion  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:30:04pm

re: #363 SanFranciscoZionist

Who Are The Uninsured?

me.

372 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:30:10pm

Hospitalized Children Without Insurance Are More Likely to Die, Study Finds

373 swamprat  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:30:14pm

re: #345 wozzablog

Two term presidencys for transformative figures?

I do hope so.

Do the math.

Reagan is to Obama as fish is to bicycle.

Simple equation.

374 MandyManners  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:30:24pm

I'm done with the Progs tonight,

375 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:30:28pm

re: #362 WindHorse

anyone who knows anything understands that humor = intelligence...

self-aggrandizing obsession... not so much.

Is this another one of those Obama=Narcissist things?

376 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:30:31pm

re: #362 WindHorse

Actually that's not true. Look at Most of Adult Swim.

Those guys sure are funny.

Those guys sure aren't smart.

(Jackson Publick and Doc Hammer aside)

377 Gus  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:30:52pm

re: #360 freetoken

Example: I have a chronic (and inherited), but minor, health problem that requires me to have a blood test every year or so, in order to get a script written.

I can't just go and order the test myself because then the insurance company won't cover it. Has to be a doctor.

But, and this is important, it doesn't have to be a doctor that graduated summa cum laude from Harvard Medical School! It's a simple blood test, I could fill the form out myself except I don't have "MD" after my name. Anybody with an MD, DO, or a Nurse Practitioner will do. It would be quite ok if some Indian doctor charged me some nominal amount to simply sign the form. I understand the disease quite well, and it can be taken care of with the smallest of effort.

So I'm quite fine with the importation of doctors from India, or where ever. Bring 'em in.

Correct. There's also medical tourism. Some people can actually have full procedures (surgery) done overseas for less than the cost of their annual health insurance premiums.

My mom was pre-med in Argentina. My cousin was also pre-med but switched over to law. He's a Harvard man.

378 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:31:13pm

re: #373 swamprat

I posted a link to the math - literally.

379 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:31:15pm

re: #374 MandyManners

GOOGLE PROGS LIZARDS!

380 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:31:19pm

re: #373 swamprat

Do the math.

Reagan is to Obama as fish is to bicycle.

Simple equation.

partisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisan

anyway, when you're ready to not be a talking point bot, let me know.

381 HappyWarrior  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:31:20pm

I doubt we knew what Reagan was going to be in 1982. I know I didn't because I wasn't alive then. Hell Lincoln wasn't Lincoln in 1862 lets not forget that.

382 Mr. Crankypants  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:31:45pm

re: #371 Uninformed Opinion

me.

Question for you then, if you could buy insurance at a reasonable cost, would you have to be forced into buying it?

383 Lidane  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:31:54pm

re: #14 SanFranciscoZionist

Teacake writes:

I don’t think its far fetched to expect in the future things like national id card, unhealthy foods and drink might be illegal, bars might be forced to close, exercise will be mandatory, healthy people turning on unhealthy people and getting in their faces, and when things go wrong in surgery’s and the such, oops oh well, that will just be too bad.

Heh. One of the conspiracies on Facebook is that the health care bill will lead to tracking chips being implanted in people. Apparently they took a tiny little sub-section about creating a national registry for Class II devices like X-ray machines, insulin pumps and pacemakers for recall purposes and jumped to "SECRET COMPUTER CHIPS SO THE GOVERNMENT CAN MONITOR YOU IT IS ORWELLIAN OMG!!!!!!"

The level of paranoia would be hilarious if it wasn't so damn sad at the same time.

Also, Glenn Beck went full retard again:

[Link: www.nydailynews.com...]

The meltdowns over this bill have been stunning to watch, to say the least.

384 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:32:02pm

re: #299 windsagio

Fuck off.

385 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:32:13pm

From back in 2007. This boy wasn't an illegal immigrant.

386 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:32:32pm

re: #384 Spare O'Lake

what'd I do?!!

387 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:32:33pm

re: #364 jaunte

Yes, there's no time for resting on laurels, we need to figure out how to take care of increased health care demands right now.

and for raising the question, our astute leftists here accuse me of being a nihilist...LGF is so improved!....hahaha....poodles

388 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:32:37pm

re: #374 MandyManners

I'm done with the Progs tonight,

I understand, I too have been burned by the errant executable binary. But are you done with the batch files?

389 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:32:45pm

re: #363 SanFranciscoZionist

Uncle with Alzheimers was
breaking off teeth due to grinding them.
You could hear him grinding his teeth at 100 feet away.
It hurt to hear.
His dentist was a lovely lady.
It hurt her more to hear him grinding, that it hurt me.
She knew what it meant.
I wish this on NO ONE or their loved ones.
You do NOT want to hear these sounds.

390 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:33:23pm

re: #379 windsagio


GOOGLE PROGS LIZARDS!

Didn't get anything much. Did both "progs" and "progs lizards". Got a better qualifier?

391 Mr. Crankypants  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:33:36pm

re: #384 Spare O'Lake

Fuck off.

Good to know you're back to your scintillating rhetorical flourishes.

Ranks right up there with "Oh Yeah?"

392 swamprat  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:33:48pm

re: #367 wozzablog

Sarah is going to step on his toe with an exquisitely pointy shoe.

In a leather collar.

393 jaunte  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:33:59pm

re: #387 albusteve

I think it's a worthwhile subject, as it's the next requirement that has to be filled.

394 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:34:01pm

re: #390 Decatur Deb

Didn't get anything much. Did both "progs" and "progs lizards". Got a better qualifier?

Try the word progressive.

395 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:34:09pm

re: #382 PT Barnum

Question for you then, if you could buy insurance at a reasonable cost, would you have to be forced into buying it?

Define "reasonable cost".
Is it 10, 20, or 30 percent of my income?
Maybe more?

396 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:34:10pm

re: #374 MandyManners

actually hows this:

I apologize for challenging your supposition that all unearned income shouldn't be taxed. How selfish of me.

397 WindHorse  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:34:16pm

re: #381 HappyWarrior

what are you talking about? "I doubt we knew what Reagan was going to be in 1982. I know I didn't because I wasn't alive then."

Those of us who were alive in 1982 (and who are, therefore, qualified to comment) knew exactly who Reagan was. That's why he was elected, and proved to be such a great President and a great man.

398 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:34:36pm

re: #371 Uninformed Opinion

me.

I personally know about three dozen working people (funny how artists tend to be on the shit end of the stick in these matters) who are uninsured. A couple of them can NEVER BE INSURED EVER under our old system because of pre-existing conditions from birth that are pervasive and obvious. Most of them simply cannot pay more than their income, or 70% of their income, to buy a plan outright. They just go without.

399 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:34:40pm

re: #390 Decatur Deb

hhaa, sorry, injoke with WUB :p

400 HappyWarrior  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:35:17pm

re: #397 WindHorse

what are you talking about? "I doubt we knew what Reagan was going to be in 1982. I know I didn't because I wasn't alive then."

Those of us who were alive in 1982 (and who are, therefore, qualified to comment) knew exactly who Reagan was. That's why he was elected, and proved to be such a great President and a great man.

Are you seriously telling me that you knew 30 years ago that Reagan would be the icon he would be today?

401 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:35:23pm

re: #228 keloyd

Is it just another wacky theory of mine, or was Rush just better 10 years ago? Let's not say "good", or "thoughtful" or "deep," but better than now.

Rush has been saying loony and spiteful stuff for as long as he has been on the air, if he isn't race baiting then he is denigrating "chicks." His audience is white males from 18-45 years old, mostly from the south judging by the stations that syndicate his radio show.

He is an earlier version of Glenn Beck, except that when Rush tried to do T.V. his bloated and currently drug addicted sweaty visage and presence was offputting to the viewers. Glenn Beck is the new Rush, he has good hair, a decent build, and a telegenic face. Sure he is even loonier, but he has the presence that Rush just could not find in front of the camera.

Glenn has just taken his Rush's sthick and perfected it for video...

402 Uninformed Opinion  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:35:30pm

re: #382 PT Barnum

Question for you then, if you could buy insurance at a reasonable cost, would you have to be forced into buying it?

it depends on what you consider reasonable. and if my work situation changes.

403 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:35:42pm

re: #390 Decatur Deb

Didn't get anything much. Did both "progs" and "progs lizards". Got a better qualifier?

search for "Google lizards" on LGF. That was what mandy said to everyone about me and Windsagio, a couple few months back, basically encouraging LGF lizards to stalk us elsewhere on the internet.

What a nice lady!

404 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:36:00pm

re: #397 WindHorse

what are you talking about? "I doubt we knew what Reagan was going to be in 1982. I know I didn't because I wasn't alive then."

Those of us who were alive in 1982 (and who are, therefore, qualified to comment) knew exactly who Reagan was. That's why he was elected, and proved to be such a great President and a great man.

Quite Concur.

405 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:36:04pm

re: #392 swamprat

Don't even want to go there.

406 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:36:07pm

re: #400 HappyWarrior

I totally knew he was going places when he decided he wasn't liberal anymore and sold his friends and colleagues out to the HUAC.

407 Mr. Crankypants  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:36:12pm

re: #395 Floral Giraffe

Define "reasonable cost".
Is it 10, 20, or 30 percent of my income?
Maybe more?

What would you consider to be reasonable? Right now, the last number I heard was up to $12,000 a year for a family of 4, under the current system, not including copays and deductibles. That's well over 25% of their income for some.

408 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:36:15pm

re: #399 windsagio

hhaa, sorry, injoke with WUB :p

I outed the injoke :D

409 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:36:39pm

re: #394 Cannadian Club Akbar

Try the word progressive.

Didn't get anything related to us (LGF). Mostly deals on auto insurance.

410 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:36:51pm

re: #393 jaunte

I think it's a worthwhile subject, as it's the next requirement that has to be filled.

notice the refined discussion about it?....hahaha! what a waste of time

411 Uninformed Opinion  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:36:52pm

re: #398 WindUpBird

I personally know about three dozen working people (funny how artists tend to be on the shit end of the stick in these matters) who are uninsured. A couple of them can NEVER BE INSURED EVER under our old system because of pre-existing conditions from birth that are pervasive and obvious. Most of them simply cannot pay more than their income, or 70% of their income, to buy a plan outright. They just go without.

I was a freelance photographer once upon a time.

412 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:37:13pm

re: #403 WindUpBird

search for "Google lizards" on LGF. That was what mandy said to everyone about me and Windsagio, a couple few months back, basically encouraging LGF lizards to stalk us elsewhere on the internet.

What a nice lady!

I did that. You know, you guys need to get lives. Enough with the geek hobby stuff!

413 palomino  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:37:23pm

re: #398 WindUpBird

I personally know about three dozen working people (funny how artists tend to be on the shit end of the stick in these matters) who are uninsured. A couple of them can NEVER BE INSURED EVER under our old system because of pre-existing conditions from birth that are pervasive and obvious. Most of them simply cannot pay more than their income, or 70% of their income, to buy a plan outright. They just go without.

They don't count.

////////////////////

414 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:37:31pm

re: #407 PT Barnum

I'm paying $3600 per year for one. No preexisting conditions.
It's expensive!

415 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:37:58pm

re: #412 SanFranciscoZionist

oh geeze, I thought I covered my tracks!

416 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:38:14pm

re: #411 Uninformed Opinion

I was a freelance photographer once upon a time.

I'mca freelance artist who has a day job ONLY for the insurance. My art pays me way better than the day job does, but I need the day job for the health care.

I am exactly that guy who would take advantage of the exchange when they set it up.

417 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:38:22pm

re: #391 PT Barnum

Good to know you're back to your scintillating rhetorical flourishes.

Ranks right up there with "Oh Yeah?"

Sometimes it has to be said.

418 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:38:23pm

re: #403 WindUpBird

I'm lost. Must have missed it.

419 HappyWarrior  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:38:27pm

I am just saying. Reagan is a legend today. As people have shown with polls there was doubt if Reagan was even gonna be reelected in 1982. Lincoln was far from the historical icon almost god he is today during his presidency. I am not trying to be a jerk at all here. I just think we have no idea how Obama will be remembered in thirty years. The way he is thought right now is immaterial to how he will be in history. I mean look at Truman. Lowest of lows at the end of his presidency. Yet many historians put him in the top ten today.

420 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:38:28pm

Can you smell it?
The smell of toasting lizards on a hot tin roof.

Still baked about health care I see.

421 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:38:57pm

re: #417 Spare O'Lake

anyways, you can't afford me honey.

422 Mr. Crankypants  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:39:04pm

re: #414 Floral Giraffe

I'm paying $3600 per year for one. No preexisting conditions.
It's expensive!

THat works out to $300 a month. My wife has our insurance and pays $400 a month for a family of 3 plus vision and dental. If I'm not working, that is a hefty chunk of her paycheck and has forced her to pretty much stay in a job she's not always been very happy with.

423 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:39:09pm

for the third - and final - refined and astute time - good night.......

424 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:39:24pm

re: #420 b_sharp

Your tail is getting baked.
Hope you've disengaged?
Just saying!

425 swamprat  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:39:38pm

re: #380 WindUpBird

partisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpa rtisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpart isanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartis anpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisan partisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpa rtisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisan

anyway, when you're ready to not be a talking point bot, let me know.

How does saying they are different, make me a "bot"?
You're a "bot"!
So there! THBBBTTT!

426 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:39:59pm

re: #398 WindUpBird

I personally know about three dozen working people (funny how artists tend to be on the shit end of the stick in these matters) who are uninsured. A couple of them can NEVER BE INSURED EVER under our old system because of pre-existing conditions from birth that are pervasive and obvious. Most of them simply cannot pay more than their income, or 70% of their income, to buy a plan outright. They just go without.

For the gazillionth time:

Insurance is Risk Management. By definition, not everyone is going to qualify.

If you want healthcare for everyone, the insurance model doesn't apply.

/pet peeve mode is off.

427 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:40:10pm

re: #422 PT Barnum

THat works out to $300 a month. My wife has our insurance and pays $400 a month for a family of 3 plus vision and dental. If I'm not working, that is a hefty chunk of her paycheck and has forced her to pretty much stay in a job she's not always been very happy with.

If I had two kids and bought insurance through my day job, I'd wind up with a paycheck of almost zero dollars.

428 Uninformed Opinion  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:40:13pm

I feel like I should confess that I live in one of the best health care locations in the country, and although I could get individual coverage for what would be considered a reasonable premium, I do not. For a number of reasons.

429 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:40:19pm

re: #422 PT Barnum

That's for 4. AND vision & dental. I'm solo, no vision, no dental.
So, it's expensive!

430 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:40:37pm

re: #424 Floral Giraffe

Your tail is getting baked.
Hope you've disengaged?
Just saying!

Just watchin' and munchin' popcorn, 'n drinkin' beer.

431 Mr. Crankypants  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:40:39pm

Question I have is when re: #426 ggt

For the gazillionth time:

Insurance is Risk Management. By definition, not everyone is going to qualify.

If you want healthcare for everyone, the insurance model doesn't apply.

/pet peeve mode is off.

DINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDING

We have a winnah!

432 EastSider  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:40:41pm

re: #422 PT Barnum

THat works out to $300 a month. My wife has our insurance and pays $400 a month for a family of 3 plus vision and dental. If I'm not working, that is a hefty chunk of her paycheck and has forced her to pretty much stay in a job she's not always been very happy with.

there's my selling point. i'd have [attempted to] start my own business a long time ago, however the biggest cost (and/or risk) was my own individual health insurance.

433 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:40:42pm

re: #423 wozzablog

for the third - and final - refined and astute time - good night...

Boomerang.

434 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:40:45pm

re: #427 WindUpBird

Thus the coworker that literally works double hours, in order to make her way.

435 palomino  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:41:09pm

re: #401 ausador

Limbaugh has the proverbial "face made for radio."

Unfortunately his audience includes lots of folks 45+. His whole shtick is cultural grievance toward non-whites and liberals--this plays pretty well with older low info voters who pine for the imaginary perfect America of their youth.

436 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:41:13pm

re: #391 PT Barnum

Good to know you're back to your scintillating rhetorical flourishes.

Ranks right up there with "Oh Yeah?"

good to see you again, poodle!....have anything constructive to say or just want to take partisan sides?

437 jaunte  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:41:40pm

Reine, if you're out there, I'm only a couple of days away from being done.

438 keloyd  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:41:41pm

re: #396 windsagio

actually hows this:

I apologize for challenging your supposition that all unearned income shouldn't be taxed. How selfish of me.

Ahem - it should be taxed once. Typically, if your share of stock pays the corporate income tax, your return is net of tax already. Cap gains tax, or dividend taxes, or variations on the theme are essentially taxed.

We also have the net benefit of foreigners throwing money at our economy on the condition that our investment tax burden remains low. Plenty of other countries are getting their act together and competing for international capital.

439 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:41:58pm

re: #436 albusteve

good to see you again, poodle!...have anything constructive to say or just want to take partisan sides?

Can I get a "poodle" definition?
TIA!
Grampy ;)

440 swamprat  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:42:05pm

re: #403 WindUpBird

search for "Google lizards" on LGF. That was what mandy said to everyone about me and Windsagio, a couple few months back, basically encouraging LGF lizards to stalk us elsewhere on the internet.

What a nice lady!


You seem sweet enough.

441 EastSider  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:42:08pm

re: #426 ggt

For the gazillionth time:

Insurance is Risk Management. By definition, not everyone is going to qualify.

If you want healthcare for everyone, the insurance model doesn't apply.

/pet peeve mode is off.

so you're for a single payer government model?

442 Mr. Crankypants  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:42:11pm

re: #436 albusteve

good to see you again, poodle!...have anything constructive to say or just want to take partisan sides?

The side I like to take is that of people who like to have rational, polite, adult conversations, unlike yourself.

443 reine.de.tout  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:42:16pm

re: #380 WindUpBird

partisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpa rtisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpart isanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartis anpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisan partisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpa rtisanpartisanpartisanpartisanpartisan

anyway, when you're ready to not be a talking point bot, let me know.

Are you partisan?
It's sort of how our political system is set up.
A difference of opinion does not a "talking point bot" make.
Otherwise, it would apply to you as well, would it not?

444 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:42:27pm

re: #437 jaunte

Reine, if you're out there, I'm only a couple of days away from being done.

cool...I'm waiting

445 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:42:54pm

re: #425 swamprat

How does saying they are different, make me a "bot"?
You're a "bot"!
So there! THBBBTTT!

It was the fish/bicycle thing. Not terribly respectful, if you're making reference to the "A woman needs a amman like a fish needs a bicycle" thing. Of course they're different people, but their presidential paths are currently similar.

Like that graph I linked to earlier. It's uncanny. Pretending they have nothing in common is silly. They have things in common. Their have similar demeanors. They both use charisma in similar ways to psuh their agendas. Their approval ratings trajectories are identical.

446 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:42:55pm

re: #441 EastSider

Lord knows I am

447 reine.de.tout  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:43:07pm

re: #437 jaunte

Reine, if you're out there, I'm only a couple of days away from being done.

OK, thanks!

448 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:43:26pm

re: #426 ggt

For the gazillionth time:

Insurance is Risk Management. By definition, not everyone is going to qualify.

If you want healthcare for everyone, the insurance model doesn't apply.

/pet peeve mode is off.

Well, that levee broke a long time ago. Insurance now pays for annual checkups, routine procedures, etc., as well as the heart attack or appendectomy.

449 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:43:33pm

re: #426 ggt

For the gazillionth time:

Insurance is Risk Management. By definition, not everyone is going to qualify.

If you want healthcare for everyone, the insurance model doesn't apply.

/pet peeve mode is off.

Excatly.

And the only way to make it apply...is health care reform!

450 Cannadian Club Akbar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:43:37pm

Night all. I have the morning shift, so...:)

451 WindHorse  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:43:59pm

it is amusing to observe the young people on this blog pontificate about just how much they know....

Please, keep on keepin' on..... don't for a minute pause and contemplate anything.

452 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:44:06pm

re: #423 wozzablog

for the third - and final - refined and astute time - good night...

No, please, stay.

453 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:44:14pm

re: #451 WindHorse

How old am I?!

454 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:44:23pm

re: #442 PT Barnum

The side I like to take is that of people who like to have rational, polite, adult conversations, unlike yourself.

right...where have I been irrational?...your meme is worn out, like your welcome here...contribute or stfu...we don't need your personal analysis of other bloggers

455 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:44:29pm

re: #440 swamprat

You seem sweet enough.

I don't encourage people to stalk lizards.

That's what the stalker blog does!

456 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:45:04pm

re: #451 WindHorse

it is amusing to observe the young people on this blog pontificate about just how much they know...

Please, keep on keepin' on... don't for a minute pause and contemplate anything.


Hold on...

contemplating...


contemplating...


Nah, I got nothing.

How old am I, anyway? Just curious if you're close. :D

457 jaunte  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:45:25pm

re: #451 WindHorse

it is amusing to observe the young people on this blog pontificate about just how much they know...

Please, keep on keepin' on... don't for a minute pause and contemplate anything.



Is Google Making Us Stupid?
What the Internet is doing to our brains

458 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:45:27pm

re: #456 WindUpBird

Hint for windhorse: He's younger than me.

459 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:45:33pm

re: #422 PT Barnum

THat works out to $300 a month. My wife has our insurance and pays $400 a month for a family of 3 plus vision and dental. If I'm not working, that is a hefty chunk of her paycheck and has forced her to pretty much stay in a job she's not always been very happy with.

I'm paying about 4400 a year to keep the husband on my insurance.

It's better than it might be.

It's not great.

460 swamprat  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:46:02pm

re: #445 WindUpBird

It was the fish/bicycle thing. Not terribly respectful, if you're making reference to the "A woman needs a amman like a fish needs a bicycle" thing. Of course they're different people, but their presidential paths are currently similar.

Like that graph I linked to earlier. It's uncanny. Pretending they have nothing in common is silly. They have things in common. Their have similar demeanors. They both use charisma in similar ways to psuh their agendas. Their approval ratings trajectories are identical.

Ok, then. Obama is just like Reagan. I should have seen it before.

461 WindHorse  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:46:16pm

re: #458 windsagio

Thanks, but I don't require any hints..... you, on the other hand....

462 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:46:18pm

re: #459 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm paying about 4400 a year to keep the husband on my insurance.

It's better than it might be.

It's not great.

4400 a year just for him! Yowsa. That's...unfortuantely about par. :P

463 palomino  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:46:20pm

re: #419 HappyWarrior

I am just saying. Reagan is a legend today. As people have shown with polls there was doubt if Reagan was even gonna be reelected in 1982. Lincoln was far from the historical icon almost god he is today during his presidency. I am not trying to be a jerk at all here. I just think we have no idea how Obama will be remembered in thirty years. The way he is thought right now is immaterial to how he will be in history. I mean look at Truman. Lowest of lows at the end of his presidency. Yet many historians put him in the top ten today.

Impossible to say how Obama will be remembered overall...who knows what crises will arise to improve or diminish his standing.

But we do know that he'll be remembered for getting legislation passed that Dems wanted for decades, what amounts to the third leg of the social welfare state. So on the domestic front he immediately goes into the category that includes FDR and LBJ.

464 freetoken  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:46:46pm

re: #426 ggt

Agree to some extent, but even in the language of some of the opponents to the HCR bill "insurance" became a synonym for "maintenance."

I'm frustrated too by the lack of transparency on this. There are clearly two categories of health problems: accidents, and maintenance. Yet "insurance" has become a mantra, and the older idea of "health maintenance" (as in HMO) is out of favor.

Risk management is not possible if risks are not allowed to be identified - about that you are quite correct.

I would rather have seen an expansion/extension of medicare and medicaid, or perhaps other forms of direct government health clinics, etc., then working through the extra bureaucratic layer of insurance companies.

465 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:46:47pm

re: #460 swamprat

If you refuse to see any similarities its because you specifically don't want to, presumably because you idolize reagan and demonize obama.

466 Mr. Crankypants  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:46:49pm

re: #454 albusteve

right...where have I been irrational?...your meme is worn out, like your welcome here...contribute or stfu...we don't need your personal analysis of other bloggers

Endless mouthing of insults and ad homenim attacks is a contribution?

You must be contributing to the LGF pasture, as you are full of what makes the grass grow green.

467 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:47:17pm

re: #461 WindHorse

You still havent' guessed!

here's another hint: I was actually alive in 1982.

468 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:47:34pm

re: #451 WindHorse

it is amusing to observe the young people on this blog pontificate about just how much they know...

Please, keep on keepin' on... don't for a minute pause and contemplate anything.

With them it is a sufficient motive to destroy an old scheme because it is old. As to the new one, they are in no sort of fear with regard to the duration of a new building run up in haste; because duration is no object to those who think little or nothing has been
done before their time.
-- Edmund Burke

469 swamprat  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:47:37pm

re: #455 WindUpBird

Don't look there. They are poisonous minds.

470 bratwurst  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:47:38pm

re: #391 PT Barnum

Ranks right up there with "Oh Yeah?"

Image: koolaidman.jpg

471 Lidane  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:47:44pm

re: #398 WindUpBird

Most of them simply cannot pay more than their income, or 70% of their income, to buy a plan outright. They just go without.

That would be me. The only medical insurance I have right now is through the university and through my auto insurance policy, and those are for catastrophic reasons only. I can't afford a personal policy at all.

I'm okay if I ever end up in the emergency room or get into a car wreck, but for regular doctor or dental visits, I pay everything out of pocket.

472 palomino  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:47:59pm

re: #436 albusteve

good to see you again, poodle!...have anything constructive to say or just want to take partisan sides?

Sesame Street Word of the Day: Poodle!

473 soap_man  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:48:04pm

re: #391 PT Barnum

Good to know you're back to your scintillating rhetorical flourishes.

Ranks right up there with "Oh Yeah?"

Kent Brockman: Scientists say they're also less attractive physically, and while we speak in a well-educated manner they tend to use low-brow expressions like "oh yeah?" and "come here a minute!"

Homer: Oh yeah? They think they're better than us, huh? Bart, come here a minute!

Bart: You come here a minute!

Homer: (angrily) Oh yeah?

474 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:48:29pm

re: #460 swamprat

Ok, then. Obama is just like Reagan. I should have seen it before.

No, of course not. But politically, if you're a student of the insider stuff, there's similarities.

I think there's a big disconnect here because I like the machinations and gamesmanship and inside stuff, the up and down of approval ratings, the management of opinion like it's a currency, it interests me. The game of politics is fascinating to me.

maybe I just wrongly assume everyone on a political blog would be interested in this stuff.

475 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:48:29pm

re: #439 Floral Giraffe

Can I get a "poodle" definition?
TIA!
Grampy ;)

poodles are these pointless ankle biters, their first post on a thread is to pile on and nip...nothing to do with the subject, their entire reason to post is to be a pain in the ass...all they do is make themselves look ridiculous, nipping and barking senselesly...they are here now, whining for their meal

476 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:48:38pm

re: #462 WindUpBird

4400 a year just for him! Yowsa. That's...unfortuantely about par. :P

One of the reasons I go slightly berserk when people start lecturing me on the value of a hard day's work, and taking care of oneself, and not looking for a handout.

477 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:48:41pm

re: #465 windsagio

If you refuse to see any similarities its because you specifically don't want to, presumably because you idolize reagan and demonize obama.

Ding ding!

478 swamprat  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:48:53pm

re: #465 windsagio

If you refuse to see any similarities its because you specifically don't want to, presumably because you idolize reagan and demonize obama.

Saint Reagan the Union buster?
Guess again.

479 Mr. Crankypants  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:49:04pm

re: #462 WindUpBird

4400 a year just for him! Yowsa. That's...unfortuantely about par. :P

But getting back to my original question, what do people think is a reasonable % of their gross income to spend on healthcare?

That's what's going to make the difference between people getting fined and people getting insurance. If it's not unaffordable, I tend to think most people will buy it anyway.

480 bratwurst  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:49:15pm

re: #454 albusteve

.we don't need your personal analysis of other bloggers

Except to call them poodles, yes?

481 keloyd  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:49:18pm

re: #401 ausador

True, but I'm getting the vibe that he has gotten more angry, more vulgar, more broad-brushed since Obama took office. You can use terms like 'reporterette' with a twinkle in your eye. 'Barrack the Magic Negro' - not so much. That's not so much a dog whistle as a really loud regular whistle, a 440 hz whistle. I can't prove he has deteriorated, but that's the vibe I get.

482 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:49:46pm

re: #478 swamprat

you have to admit it was a pretty safe guess :P

483 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:49:51pm

re: #476 SanFranciscoZionist

One of the reasons I go slightly berserk when people start lecturing me on the value of a hard day's work, and taking care of oneself, and not looking for a handout.

Fucking A, right with you.

Anyone who lectures me on a hard days work gets their internet ass kicked. At any given time, I am working two to three discrete jobs. My freelance, my long-term contract work, and my day job.

484 HappyWarrior  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:49:54pm

re: #463 palomino

Impossible to say how Obama will be remembered overall...who knows what crises will arise to improve or diminish his standing.

But we do know that he'll be remembered for getting legislation passed that Dems wanted for decades, what amounts to the third leg of the social welfare state. So on the domestic front he immediately goes into the category that includes FDR and LBJ.

Yep. This is something Democrats have been trying to pass for years and like Obama or not he did succeed.

485 palomino  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:50:21pm

re: #451 WindHorse

it is amusing to observe the young people on this blog pontificate about just how much they know...

Please, keep on keepin' on... don't for a minute pause and contemplate anything.

Except that a lot of what passes as the wisdom of old age is just calcified intransigence.

486 Mr. Crankypants  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:50:22pm

re: #475 albusteve

poodles are these pointless ankle biters, their first post on a thread is to pile on and nip...nothing to do with the subject, their entire reason to post is to be a pain in the ass...all they do is make themselves look ridiculous, nipping and barking senselesly...they are here now, whining for their meal

Projection much?

487 Jadespring  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:50:35pm

re: #471 Lidane

That would be me. The only medical insurance I have right now is through the university and through my auto insurance policy, and those are for catastrophic reasons only. I can't afford a personal policy at all.

I'm okay if I ever end up in the emergency room or get into a car wreck, but for regular doctor or dental visits, I pay everything out of pocket.

If you don't mind me asking how much does regular doctor visit cost?

488 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:50:42pm

re: #441 EastSider

so you're for a single payer government model?

Actually, I am for the 300 billion (or whatever the current US population is)-payer model.

But, no- one seems to think everyone should pay their own way --or let the market determine prices.

It's a brave new world and I'm trying to adjust.

489 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:50:50pm

re: #484 HappyWarrior

True or not, one of the things that he said that really endeared me to him was along the lines of "If I pass HCR and because of that only get one term, I'll call my presidency a success"

490 swamprat  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:50:50pm

re: #474 WindUpBird

No, of course not. But politically, if you're a student of the insider stuff, there's similarities.

I think there's a big disconnect here because I like the machinations and gamesmanship and inside stuff, the up and down of approval ratings, the management of opinion like it's a currency, it interests me. The game of politics is fascinating to me.

maybe I just wrongly assume everyone on a political blog would be interested in this stuff.

Almost 500 posts here. Can you point me to your Reagan / Obama link?

491 WindHorse  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:51:02pm

re: #485 palomino

....you would know!

492 jaunte  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:51:16pm

re: #479 PT Barnum

I think between 8% and 12% is reasonable.

493 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:51:19pm

re: #466 PT Barnum

Endless mouthing of insults and ad homenim attacks is a contribution?

You must be contributing to the LGF pasture, as you are full of what makes the grass grow green.

don't attack me for no good reason and we'll get along...too simple?

494 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:51:22pm

re: #479 PT Barnum

But getting back to my original question, what do people think is a reasonable % of their gross income to spend on healthcare?

That's what's going to make the difference between people getting fined and people getting insurance. If it's not unaffordable, I tend to think most people will buy it anyway.

I think somewhere in the small car payment range seems reasonable. if I had insurance and it costs me $250 a month without the day job, i'd run skipping down the street like Rainbow Brite. In the outfit!

495 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:51:36pm

re: #485 palomino

mean + for the idea expressed, and ++ for 'calcified intransigence'

496 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:51:39pm

re: #448 The Sanity Inspector

Well, that levee broke a long time ago. Insurance now pays for annual checkups, routine procedures, etc., as well as the heart attack or appendectomy.

For those that qualify in the first place.

The HMO model really confused things.

497 TheMatrix31  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:52:06pm

But I was under the impression that most of America WANTED this!

From MSNBC, no less.

498 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:52:08pm

re: #485 palomino

Except that a lot of what passes as the wisdom of old age is just calcified intransigence.

Get off my lawn, punk.

499 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:52:13pm

re: #485 palomino

Except that a lot of what passes as the wisdom of old age is just calcified intransigence.

I have not been getting my doors blown off by old peoples' reaction to gay rights lately. It just so happens 20 and 30 somethings want equality by a big margin, 70 year olds, not so much.

500 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:52:41pm

re: #480 bratwurst

Except to call them poodles, yes?

they earned it...are you a poodle too?...it's my own private description

501 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:52:51pm

re: #497 TheMatrix31

But I was under the impression that most of America WANTED this!

From MSNBC, no less.

Is this the talking point where Republicans try to conflate people who don't think HCR goes far enough with the people who oppose it outright?

502 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:53:38pm

Moral Dilemma: I've been a fan of shock jocks and free speech for a very long time. I highly value offensive speech as part of our freedoms as Americans. Since all the edgy talk radio has been chased off the public airwaves I've subscribed to Xm satellite radio and have been a devoted listener of Opie/Anthony and Ron/Fez on XM 202. I just heard a commercial for Alex Jone's "Obama Deception". I've stuck with these guys for a very long time but I have my limits and supporting the spread of antisemitism and right wing conspiracy theories is a pretty solid line for me. I've never supported boycotts of anyone before, not even Glenn Beck. However, I can't justify subscribing and financially supporting a media outlet that contributes to mainstreaming Alex Jones.
I live alone and work at home. LGF and XM 202 have been my constant companions for many years. Canceling my satellite radio would be a tough break to make. I don't want to send a threatening email without the cancellation to back it up.
Free Speech? What should I do?

503 jaunte  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:53:43pm

re: #498 Decatur Deb

We don't have lawns.
We paint our calcified instransigence green, and we like it.

504 TheMatrix31  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:53:52pm

re: #501 WindUpBird

Hey, being upset is being upset.

505 TheMatrix31  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:54:04pm

re: #501 WindUpBird

Oh, and downding for predictability.

506 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:54:16pm

Gotta scoot. The hippest thing any President ever did was not to play saxophone on MTV, nor shoot hoops with lucky youths. It was Eisenhower, who sent Dizzy Gillespie & band on an international goodwill tour. And this is what got Richard Nixon the brass ring:

Youtube Video
507 jordash1212  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:54:39pm

I like to see multinational corporations that have some ethical standards in addition to capitalist principles. Access to information is everything, and the way China is behaving in this international economy is cheap and against the rules. They don't deserve to be treated like a Western country until they act like a Western country. Until they make the necessary changes, I hope every other country acts like Google.

It's becoming more and more obvious that international regimes aren't going to be able to get a grip on China. The market works in controlling China, but it does so slowly.

508 Uninformed Opinion  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:54:40pm

re: #499 WindUpBird

I have not been getting my doors blown off by old peoples' reaction to gay rights lately. It just so happens 20 and 30 somethings want equality by a big margin, 70 year olds, not so much.

you want a huge part of the health care cost problem?

509 albusteve  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:54:50pm

I'm out of here...
call your local Roto-Rooter

510 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:54:56pm

re: #502 Killgore Trout

Alex Jones is on terrestrial radio too. Keep your sat radio! I'm not throwing out my GnR records because Axl said some shitty things about queers. :)

511 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:55:02pm

re: #496 ggt

For those that qualify in the first place.

The HMO model really confused things.

Glad I'm on a PPO.

512 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:55:02pm

re: #398 WindUpBird

I personally know about three dozen working people (funny how artists tend to be on the shit end of the stick in these matters) who are uninsured. A couple of them can NEVER BE INSURED EVER under our old system because of pre-existing conditions from birth that are pervasive and obvious. Most of them simply cannot pay more than their income, or 70% of their income, to buy a plan outright. They just go without.

My current insurance is raising my premium $100/mo. more in 2 months, so I have to find another carrier or go without.

If I apply to another carrier, they will require another physical so they can quote an equally outrageous premium based on my BMI and pre-existing arthritis. But other than that I have normal cholesterol and no diabetes, and a family history of longevity.

This afternoon while I was getting my foot xrayed, the podiatrist was going on about how this HCR will destroy him and Zedushka (whose medical expenses are entirely paid for by Medicaid) is worried that the quality of his care will diminish.

513 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:55:08pm

re: #505 TheMatrix31

I love how they read through all our posts and then try to steal the good memes >>

514 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:55:21pm

re: #505 TheMatrix31

Oh, and downding for predictability.

All best wishes, kiddo!

515 Mr. Crankypants  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:55:24pm

re: #488 ggt

Actually, I am for the 300 billion (or whatever the current US population is)-payer model.

But, no- one seems to think everyone should pay their own way --or let the market determine prices.

It's a brave new world and I'm trying to adjust.

If medical care was a commodity, then that model would work, however, because you can't necessarily go comparative shopping for a doctor, it

516 WindHorse  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:55:26pm

re: #499 WindUpBird

it just so happens that 20 and 30 somethings only know what 20 and 30 somethings know....

but don't let that stop you!!

:)

517 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:55:57pm

re: #516 WindHorse

Is that a guess?!

518 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:56:27pm

re: #504 TheMatrix31

Hey, being upset is being upset.

So it is the talking point! Cheers, you guys never quit with this, it's really fun to see you spin this. :D

519 TheMatrix31  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:56:55pm

Alright well, I hate to do the drive-by stuff, but I'm off to watch total-right-wing-torture-filled-pleasure-getting-lunatic's-wet-dream 24.

///

520 WindHorse  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:56:57pm

re: #517 windsagio

a direct response.... no guessing involved.

521 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:57:22pm

re: #515 PT Barnum

If medical care was a commodity, then that model would work, however, because you can't necessarily go comparative shopping for a doctor, it

I know a few people who price shop their meds, doctors and hospital tests. It is a commodity like any other product. Ask your doctor what his "cash" price is, I guarantee it is different that what he bills insurance.

522 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:57:27pm

re: #520 WindHorse

at least stick to one decade, '20somethings and 30somethings' is so broad.

523 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:57:46pm

re: #520 WindHorse

I'll give you another hint tho, all my grandparents are dead.

524 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:57:50pm

re: #516 WindHorse

it just so happens that 20 and 30 somethings only know what 20 and 30 somethings know...

but don't let that stop you!!

:)

Well, what do I know...

I know how to run my own business, I know how to do well in a shitty economy, and I play a mean drum kit.

Oh, and I know how to research. Which is the important one for hanging out here. :)

525 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:58:02pm

re: #505 TheMatrix31

Oh, and downding for predictability.

His name sometimes fits: Once wound up, WUB goes off on anything right of center with whatever he has to hand. It's his schtick.

526 Gretchen G.Tiger  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:58:11pm

I gotta share the computer.

Have a great evening all!

527 bratwurst  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:58:19pm

re: #500 albusteve

they earned it...are you a poodle too?...it's my own private description

I actually like your style and admire your excellent taste in music, but I think your campaign against name calling needs some re-tooling is all.

528 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:58:23pm

re: #521 ggt

I know a few people who price shop their meds, doctors and hospital tests. It is a commodity like any other product. Ask your doctor what his "cash" price is, I guarantee it is different that what he bills insurance.

I know a few people who just buy their meds black market. 8-)

529 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:59:00pm

re: #523 windsagio

I'll give you another hint tho, all my grandparents are dead.

12,409,843,293?

530 Mr. Crankypants  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:59:16pm

Well gnite all...I need to hit the sack.

531 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:59:25pm

re: #372 SanFranciscoZionist

You'd think that would be a no brainer.

I think the United States should be judged on how well it treats its most poorest and underprivileged citizens. From the truly poor to the ones who have great jobs but still can't afford health insurance. This health care reform is just the tip of the proverbial ice berg. Ever been to a nursing home before? How about a hospital ER waiting room? This maltreatment of our own citizens has to stop. I know, I know, easier said than done but I just needed to get it out.

532 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:59:35pm

re: #346 Stanley Sea

Wow, I didn't expect Romney to pull that hard to the right. That's amazing.

What an ass.

533 palomino  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:59:36pm

re: #499 WindUpBird

I have not been getting my doors blown off by old peoples' reaction to gay rights lately. It just so happens 20 and 30 somethings want equality by a big margin, 70 year olds, not so much.

Good point. Future generations will look back on anti-gay hysteria with a WTF attitude, kind of the way we look at segregationists. Won't be that long before the only holdouts will be Deep South states and Utah.

534 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:59:58pm

re: #522 windsagio

at least stick to one decade, '20somethings and 30somethings' is so broad.

They're all punks, and I'm not much taken with 40's and 50's either.

535 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:00:26pm

re: #529 b_sharp

is that years, decades, weeks, hours, or microseconds?

536 Uninformed Opinion  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:01:00pm

Can we talk about how the Baby Boomers were by far the worst generation ever?

537 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:01:03pm

re: #535 windsagio

is that years, decades, weeks, hours, or microseconds?

Quatloos.

538 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:01:07pm

re: #438 keloyd

I'm giving you a downding for your ridiculous Dick Armey tax scheme that would completely sell out the working and middle classes. I hope you're just repeating it out of ignorance, rather than actual belief in it.

539 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:01:11pm

re: #525 Dark_Falcon

His name sometimes fits: Once wound up, WUB goes off on anything right of center with whatever he has to hand. It's his schtick.

Do I now? :D

Last i checked, I wasn't the guy comparing Obama to Chavez, and talking about how much I despised X republican leader. I don't go OH GOD HOW I LOATHE BOEHNER every other thread. I think you're WAY more tribalist than I am. Way waaay more. How many Democrats have you voted for? Because I've voted for Republicans.

Physician, heal thyself!

540 Gus  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:01:19pm

Gallup Poll

In U.S. - Obama Healthcare Plan

45% Favor
48% Oppose

3% difference. Insignificant. I'm pretty sure it's split. The people in my neck of the woods are actually overjoyed.

Again I will say this. Polling showed opposition to the Iraq War and Afghanistan War. If one were to be consistent then they would have capitulated to polling data at that time.

As it stands now those that say polling shows American oppose the HCR are using the Fox News polling data. Please note I am not judging the validity of that data.

541 Lidane  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:01:27pm

re: #487 Jadespring

If you don't mind me asking how much does regular doctor visit cost?

Good question. I haven't been to a regular doctor in ages. I don't get sick that often and when I have in the past couple of years, I've just gone to the campus clinic.

I can, however, tell you that my dentist runs me around $160 just for a cleaning and basic checkup. Any actual work that has to be done runs into the thousands of dollars.

For example, he wants to replace the remaining silver fillings I still have with the white composite filling that are used now, and that would run me almost $2000. And I'm already dreading what getting my wisdom teeth out will cost me. It's insane. I'm going to have to just do it all one step at a time and when I can afford it.

542 swamprat  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:01:38pm

re: #331 WindUpBird

Found it.

543 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:01:44pm

re: #539 WindUpBird

"Quite Concur"

/man I hate that phrase.

544 WindHorse  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:01:57pm

re: #534 Decatur Deb

Quite concur.

545 palomino  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:02:01pm

re: #501 WindUpBird

Is this the talking point where Republicans try to conflate people who don't think HCR goes far enough with the people who oppose it outright?

Stop citing polls and statistics. That's silly young people talk.

Seriously, about a quarter of the opposition, if not more, comes from the far left--single payer dead-enders.

546 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:02:15pm

re: #532 Obdicut

Romney's dancing at the moment, I think he'll mellow in a few months.

547 HappyWarrior  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:02:54pm

re: #540 Gus 802

Gallup Poll

In U.S. - Obama Healthcare Plan

45% Favor
48% Oppose

3% difference. Insignificant. I'm pretty sure it's split. The people in my neck of the woods are actually overjoyed.

Again I will say this. Polling showed opposition to the Iraq War and Afghanistan War. If one were to be consistent then they would have capitulated to polling data at that time.

As it stands now those that say polling shows American oppose the HCR are using the Fox News polling data. Please note I am not judging the validity of that data.

Ah an actual scientific poll. I admit the bill's far from popular but that MSNBC poll was clearly screwed with given the large numbers who voted on it and the inheirient lack of scientificity of olnine polls. Another thing is that there is a segment that wishes the bill went even further.

548 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:03:11pm

re: #544 WindHorse

Youtube Video

lol.

549 soap_man  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:03:14pm

re: #539 WindUpBird

Do I now? :D

Last i checked, I wasn't the guy comparing Obama to Chavez, and talking about how much I despised X republican leader. I don't go OH GOD HOW I LOATHE BOEHNER every other thread. I think you're WAY more tribalist than I am. Way waaay more. How many Democrats have you voted for? Because I've voted for Republicans.

Physician, heal thyself!

Heh.

550 bratwurst  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:03:20pm

re: #546 WindUpBird

Romney's dancing at the moment

Yet nary a hair out of place!

/ (jealous of anyone older than me with that much hair)

551 swamprat  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:03:59pm

re: #531 eclectic infidel

You'd think that would be a no brainer.

I think the United States should be judged on how well it treats its most poorest and underprivileged citizens. From the truly poor to the ones who have great jobs but still can't afford health insurance. This health care reform is just the tip of the proverbial ice berg. Ever been to a nursing home before? How about a hospital ER waiting room? This maltreatment of our own citizens has to stop. I know, I know, easier said than done but I just needed to get it out.


How we treat the poor, the criminal, the mentally disabled, the insane, the sick, ....we could do better.

552 bratwurst  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:04:33pm

re: #519 TheMatrix31

Alright well, I hate to do the drive-by stuff, but I'm off to watch total-right-wing-torture-filled-pleasure-getting-l unatic's-wet-dream 24.

///

I always prefered the description "NeoCon soft porn".

553 WindHorse  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:04:35pm

re: #551 swamprat

now that I do concur with!

554 Gus  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:04:36pm

re: #547 HappyWarrior

Ah an actual scientific poll. I admit the bill's far from popular but that MSNBC poll was clearly screwed with given the large numbers who voted on it and the inheirient lack of scientificity of olnine polls. Another thing is that there is a segment that wishes the bill went even further.

That MSNBC poll was an online poll. As we know those can be Freeped so to speak from any side depending on the poll. With that we're talking about a bunch of people that are already upset and on the internet looking for a place to grind their axe.

555 soap_man  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:04:36pm

re: #547 HappyWarrior

Ah an actual scientific poll. I admit the bill's far from popular but that MSNBC poll was clearly screwed with given the large numbers who voted on it and the inheirient lack of scientificity of olnine polls. Another thing is that there is a segment that wishes the bill went even further.

I still don't think you would ever get any HC bill that would break, say, 55 percent approval. Too many different groups of people wanted to many different things.

556 Killgore Trout  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:05:04pm

re: #510 WindUpBird

Alex Jones is on terrestrial radio too. Keep your sat radio! I'm not throwing out my GnR records because Axl said some shitty things about queers. :)

I can't just blow this off. I can't morally justify financially supporting the mainstreaming of Alex Jones. I have a pretty broad support of free speech but I have my limits.

557 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:05:09pm

re: #545 palomino

Stop citing polls and statistics. That's silly young people talk.

Seriously, about a quarter of the opposition, if not more, comes from the far left--single payer dead-enders.

Yeah! And despite the perception that I'm to the left of Lefty Mc Leftermarx, I am very moderate pragmatist on health care. I don't mind insurance companies being in the system, a slong as they're regulated. I don't need single payer, I don't need a public option.

I want the horribly unethical pracices to stop, and I want portability. That's it. That's all.


But I am OMG MEGALEFTER because Darkfalcon says so. You're a good guy, DF. But you just get so partisan. I am not partisan, I am issues-based. it happens that Democrats have me on the issues. I would actually like that to change!

558 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:05:46pm

re: #546 WindUpBird

He still said it. It got said. It's on the record, him saying that Obama betrayed his oath. That's a hairs breadth away from calling him a traitor.

I frown at it. Deeply.

559 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:06:03pm

re: #557 WindUpBird

I'm partisan tho'.

560 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:06:04pm

re: #556 Killgore Trout

I can't just blow this off. I can't morally justify financially supporting the mainstreaming of Alex Jones. I have a pretty broad support of free speech but I have my limits.

I'm a little more cynical about media than you are, I fear.

There's always subscribing to Phil hendrie's podcast!

561 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:06:18pm

re: #559 windsagio

I'm partisan tho'.

More so than me, it's true!

562 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:06:25pm

re: #534 Decatur Deb

They're all punks, and I'm not much taken with 40's and 50's either.

Nah, you're just old!
//

563 HappyWarrior  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:07:14pm

re: #555 soap_man

I still don't think you would ever get any HC bill that would break, say, 55 percent approval. Too many different groups of people wanted to many different things.

Yeah I think you're absolutely right about that. Can't make all the people happy at the same time.

564 soap_man  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:07:23pm

re: #557 WindUpBird

Yeah! And despite the perception that I'm to the left of Lefty Mc Leftermarx, I am very moderate pragmatist on health care. I don't mind insurance companies being in the system, a slong as they're regulated. I don't need single payer, I don't need a public option.

I want the horribly unethical pracices to stop, and I want portability. That's it. That's all.

But I am OMG MEGALEFTER because Darkfalcon says so. You're a good guy, DF. But you just get so partisan. I am not partisan, I am issues-based. it happens that Democrats have me on the issues. I would actually like that to change!

*raspberry*

565 swamprat  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:07:37pm

re: #556 Killgore Trout

What's next? Rense? You can't make this sort of thing up.

566 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:07:47pm

re: #558 Obdicut

He still said it. It got said. It's on the record, him saying that Obama betrayed his oath. That's a hairs breadth away from calling him a traitor.

I frown at it. Deeply.

Oh, it sucks. I agree. I guess I just am starting to become less affected by the crazy rhetoric. it's all so crazy that it's like whit enoise.

567 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:08:06pm

re: #562 Floral Giraffe

Nah, you're just old!
//

I don't trust anyone over 75y.

568 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:08:20pm

re: #564 soap_man

*raspberry*

Sorry, he does!

569 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:08:21pm

re: #561 WindUpBird

To lecture a bit, I think the trick is that being partisan in of itself isn't bad, but you have to have that enlightenment sense of your own limitations.

You can have strong opinions as long as you're also able to grok that you might be wrong... And I Think that's where people break down. They can't accept the chance that they could be mistaken, and it causes all kinds of maladaptive behavior.

The other bad mistake is to confuse emotional vehemence for knowledge.

570 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:08:58pm

re: #563 HappyWarrior

Yeah I think you're absolutely right about that. Can't make all the people happy at the same time.

And then the mistake people make is they want that to be an indictment of it. Like 100% of the country has to agree on everything.

571 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:09:01pm

re: #556 Killgore Trout

I can't just blow this off. I can't morally justify financially supporting the mainstreaming of Alex Jones. I have a pretty broad support of free speech but I have my limits.

Free speech means we don't send a SWAT team in. I feel no obligation to support drivel I find offensive. A boycott is the market bringing them their karma.

572 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:09:19pm

re: #567 b_sharp

I don't trust anyone over 75y.

It's fairly safe to say they don't trust you either!
//

573 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:09:43pm

re: #572 Floral Giraffe

They don't trust the people that stole their oatmeal!

574 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:09:48pm

re: #543 windsagio

"Quite Concur"

/man I hate that phrase.

I love it!

575 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:10:28pm

re: #574 Stanley Sea

Jerk. I guess this shows you're not a tribalist tho :P

576 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:10:44pm

re: #567 b_sharp

I don't trust anyone over 75y.

Same people I didn't trust when I was 20.

577 HappyWarrior  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:10:53pm

re: #570 WindUpBird

And then the mistake people make is they want that to be an indictment of it. Like 100% of the country has to agree on everything.

100% of the country can't even agree on what beer is the best. How on earth should we be expected to agree on political matters heh.

578 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:10:56pm

re: #564 soap_man

Dark_Falcon is admittedly and unashamedly partisan. It's not a bad thing, except that WuB really not that much of a wild lefty at all. I'm to the left of him on some things, he's to the left of me on some, and I'm not much of a 'lefty' either. (Except on social equality stuff, like gay marriage)

Both of us are pretty pragmatic. I think he's wrong about keeping health insurance companies in the system-- but for pragmatic, not ideological reasons. We're not ideological about financial stuff, and in many ways that appears as 'liberal'-- and that ought to give people pause.

The whole 'left/right' thingy is silly as a general metric, especially on financial issues. It only makes sense if the person is working from ideological grounds.

579 b_sharp  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:11:16pm

Well, I gotta rather one sided fight with the wife to attend to, I'll have to leave this one for later.

'night.

580 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:11:33pm

re: #578 Obdicut

You're too reasonable.

581 soap_man  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:11:37pm

re: #568 WindUpBird

Sorry, he does!

There is a big difference between being partisan and being ideologically consistent. He's conservative.

Partisans, on the other hand, will stick up for their tribe no matter what. Even when they are obviously wrong/ignorant/pig-headed. DF attacks his own party quite often.

I've seen it many times.

582 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:12:11pm

re: #581 soap_man

By that meaning of partisan, DF isn't. I only meant that he is very 'partisan' to a very well-defined ideology.

583 bratwurst  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:12:35pm

re: #577 HappyWarrior

100% of the country can't even agree on what beer is the best.


Not to mention the whole "tastes great/less filling" debate!

584 Jadespring  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:12:38pm

re: #541 Lidane

Good question. I haven't been to a regular doctor in ages. I don't get sick that often and when I have in the past couple of years, I've just gone to the campus clinic.

I can, however, tell you that my dentist runs me around $160 just for a cleaning and basic checkup. Any actual work that has to be done runs into the thousands of dollars.

For example, he wants to replace the remaining silver fillings I still have with the white composite filling that are used now, and that would run me almost $2000. And I'm already dreading what getting my wisdom teeth out will cost me. It's insane. I'm going to have to just do it all one step at a time and when I can afford it.

Ouch. I can relate to dental. Dental here in Canada is not covered under basic medical (at least in the two provinces I've lived in) so unless you have some sort of extended medical insurance or it's work place benefit it's out of pocket. The costs you relate seem comparable. Last time I went to dentist was ten years ago when it was covered through my work. Luckily I have really good teeth and have only had one cavity in my lifetime so I can get away with it. My sister however didn't luck out on the gene thing and inherited Dads soft teeth. Luckily her husband has partial coverage through his work so the cost is reduced. Even so last year she paid out a couple of thousand on teeth problems.

585 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:12:43pm

re: #581 soap_man

There's a difference between blog-level partisanship and macro-level partisanship. The other term used sometimes is 'tribalism'

586 WindHorse  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:12:50pm

re: #579 b_sharp

hmmmm... maybe if you didn't refer to her as "the wife", you wouldn't have these problems....

/the wife left me in '97 btw

;)

587 The Shadow Do  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:12:56pm

re: #556 Killgore Trout

I can't just blow this off. I can't morally justify financially supporting the mainstreaming of Alex Jones. I have a pretty broad support of free speech but I have my limits.

It is impossible to cloister oneself in todays world. Do what I do when it all gets too much. Go trout fishing. No offense to those surnamed trout, of course.

588 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:13:04pm

re: #573 windsagio

My Uncle with Alzheimers, lived in a care facility for 7.5 years.Anyone could have stolen his food, at any time.
What we paid for, and got, were people who wanted him to have the best life that he could.They were great. He had a good life, was happy & did just what he wanted!

589 palomino  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:13:06pm

re: #557 WindUpBird

Extra foaming at the mouth by teabaggers doesn't validate their rhetoric. They will continue to call this bill a "radical govt. takeover" and ignore its moderate substance and moderate supporters.

I used to vote repub, when it was a political party. Now that it's an anti-intellectual religious institution, I'm not so interested. (But hey they're doing fine without people like us, right?)

590 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:13:32pm

re: #577 HappyWarrior

100% of the country can't even agree on what beer is the best. How on earth should we be expected to agree on political matters heh.

heeheehee

I cant even agree with myself! But my current favorites:

Widmer W10 Cascade Dark Ale
Aventinus Doppleweizenbock
Chimay Blue
Bridgeport IPA
Celebrator Dopplebock
Alaskan Amber
Mac And Jack's African Amber
Piraat
Old Rasputin Imperial Stout

591 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:13:40pm

oh crap, I need to get ready for work.

Sucks too, I love these meta-discussions!

592 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:14:11pm

re: #556 Killgore Trout

I can't just blow this off. I can't morally justify financially supporting the mainstreaming of Alex Jones. I have a pretty broad support of free speech but I have my limits.

Send an email, or better a real letter - stipulate the Jones/Anti-Semitism connect.

593 windsagio  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:14:17pm

re: #588 Floral Giraffe

I've just had... experiences with people like that >>

594 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:14:52pm

re: #581 soap_man

There is a big difference between being partisan and being ideologically consistent. He's conservative.

Partisans, on the other hand, will stick up for their tribe no matter what. Even when they are obviously wrong/ignorant/pig-headed. DF attacks his own party quite often.

I've seen it many times.

The partisanship shows up when he goes all haterate on Nancy Pelosi.

You can be partisan and attack your own party. tea Partiers aren't partisan? They attack everyone in their party who they feel is a RINO.

595 Decatur Deb  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:15:52pm

Have to totter off now. 'Nite, all.

596 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:16:42pm

re: #594 WindUpBird

Also, i will add that DF HIMSELF CALLS HIMSELF A PARTISAN. ;-)

597 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:17:55pm

re: #558 Obdicut

He still said it. It got said. It's on the record, him saying that Obama betrayed his oath. That's a hairs breadth away from calling him a traitor.

I frown at it. Deeply.

Yeah, I'm not going to forget it. Not that I would vote for Romney, but I'll remind others about it, no doubt.

598 Uninformed Opinion  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:18:08pm

re: #594 WindUpBird

You can be partisan and attack your own party. tea Partiers aren't partisan? They attack everyone in their party who they feel is a RINO.

Its because they always need to pull right. Its the gameplan.

599 HappyWarrior  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:18:38pm

re: #590 WindUpBird

heeheehee

I cant even agree with myself! But my current favorites:

Widmer W10 Cascade Dark Ale
Aventinus Doppleweizenbock
Chimay Blue
Bridgeport IPA
Celebrator Dopplebock
Alaskan Amber
Mac And Jack's African Amber
Piraat
Old Rasputin Imperial Stout

I've got that problem with whiskey myself. Always try to make it a Guinness to start out the night if I am pubbing though. If I'm home though I am more flexible.

600 soap_man  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:19:06pm

re: #594 WindUpBird

The partisanship shows up when he goes all haterate on Nancy Pelosi.

You can be partisan and attack your own party. tea Partiers aren't partisan? They attack everyone in their party who they feel is a RINO.

Partisan is a silly word. Many, if not most, support the party of their choice—while disliking the other. There is a reason for this, and it is not "tribalism" or any other buzz word you want to throw around. Conservatives are going to agree with the GOP most of the time, while having a distaste for the Dems. And vice-versa.

And while we are on the subject, when did DF become the trendy new target around here? This is like the third time I've logged in recently only to show up in the middle of a pile-on.

601 Lidane  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:19:25pm

re: #584 Jadespring

Lucky for me, I have relatively good teeth despite the fillings. I got those when I was a kid and didn't comprehend the concept of flossing, so they're very old. That's why he wants to replace them all with the white composite stuff. He wants to get them out before they ever become a problem. It's just expensive as hell to do it. =/

The wisdom teeth, he's been riding me about getting them out for over two years now. I blew it off because all my money was going to tuition and books. I don't have a convenient excuse anymore, so I need to finally get those done. It's going to suck, though-- I don't know what it will cost, but I'm guessing I'll only be able to afford to get one or two removed at a time.

602 The Shadow Do  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:20:12pm

re: #596 WindUpBird

Also, i will add that DF HIMSELF CALLS HIMSELF A PARTISAN. ;-)

That would be an intersesting poll at LGF. Are you a simple partisan, or are you an independent thinker? The results could well be hilarious were the respondents disclosed.

603 TheMatrix31  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:20:25pm

Maybe Romney felt Obama/Pelosi/Reid and the yes's breached their oath to defend the Constitution because he felt that there are some provisions in the bill which are unconstitutional?

Back to the show.

604 keloyd  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:20:56pm

re: #538 Obdicut

I'm giving you a downding for your ridiculous Dick Armey tax scheme that would completely sell out the working and middle classes. I hope you're just repeating it out of ignorance, rather than actual belief in it.

Without getting all biographical, this is loosely within my profession and 2 1/2 college degrees. "Completely selling out the working and middle classes" and "ignorance" are overly dramatic for this subject. I approve of progressive income taxation, enthusiastically. I'm not the enemy, neither is clear honest tax policy a complete sellout. I have no idea what Dick Armey says about taxes. He's kind of the lovable crazy uncle of the right wing.

Double taxation is a real thing, and does (a bit of) harm to the economy. I won't argue or get all excited about it, or much of anything this close to bedtime, but when other countries tax investment income less than the US, capital flows away from us to them. The poor benefit from capital flowing to the US. Tax policy should be transparent and uncluttered as possible.

605 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:21:49pm

re: #600 soap_man

Partisan is a silly word. Many, if not most, support the party of their choice—while disliking the other. There is a reason for this, and it is not "tribalism" or any other buzz word you want to throw around. Conservatives are going to agree with the GOP most of the time, while having a distaste for the Dems. And vice-versa.

And while we are on the subject, when did DF become the trendy new target around here? This is like the third time I've logged in recently only to show up in the middle of a pile-on.

He isn't the trendy new target, he's given me some static, I give it back. I've given FAR worse to good friends. I actually like the guy, I don't want to make him a constant target at all. I just get sick of some of the stuff he says. I'd still happily buy him a beer or five.

There are a few here I would...rather not meet :-)

But tribalism is real. it's not a buzzword. The tribalism of demonizing the other, that's real stuff. The southern strategy is real stuff. hating on gays and not wanting them as teachers, that's real stuff. That's tribalism.

606 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:21:54pm

re: #600 soap_man

DF is a good guy. The "pile on" is for shit.
There.
You made me say a bad word.
But, for DF, I will say MANY bad words.
Bring it on.

607 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:23:53pm

I just found a job listing at USAjobs.gov for a database administrator and applied for it. Part of the application required narrative response on experience with various software packages, and have I ever build a database and a query engine to retrieve data.

I hope that I get an interview based on this application. It's been a long time since I've seen a job listing that was such a good fit for my skills.

Hoops, can you add me to the LGF prayer list that I should become employed?

(I already have a nonprofit foundation, a historical web archive which is supported from revenue earned through the Zionist Mall but a real day job is what I really need)

608 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:24:05pm

re: #603 TheMatrix31

Maybe Romney felt Obama/Pelosi/Reid and the yes's breached their oath to defend the Constitution because he felt that there are some provisions in the bill which are unconstitutional?

Back to the show.

Okay, i'll bite. Which ones? is Romney a lawyer? Would he know?

Show us the evidence. I bet a guy on another forum $200 the SCOTUS wouldn't declare reform unconstitutional. He didn't take me up on it.

609 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:24:11pm

re: #600 soap_man

How is this a pile on? I think Dark Falcon is absolutely awesome. I think he'd also happily say that he held a very strongly defined ideological position.

610 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:24:27pm

re: #603 TheMatrix31

Maybe Romney felt Obama/Pelosi/Reid and the yes's breached their oath to defend the Constitution because he felt that there are some provisions in the bill which are unconstitutional?

Back to the show.

Thread shitter.

611 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:24:38pm

re: #606 Floral Giraffe

DF is a good guy. The "pile on" is for shit.
There.
You made me say a bad word.
But, for DF, I will say MANY bad words.
Bring it on.

if you read up, he came at me first.

I am not piling on, I am responding.

612 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:24:50pm

re: #582 Obdicut

By that meaning of partisan, DF isn't. I only meant that he is very 'partisan' to a very well-defined ideology.

That's true, I am. I try to be sane about it, and I'd say I succeed, but I'm not a moderate.

613 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:25:09pm

re: #606 Floral Giraffe

DF is a good guy. The "pile on" is for shit.
There.
You made me say a bad word.
But, for DF, I will say MANY bad words.
Bring it on.

Thank you.

614 Sheila Broflovski  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:25:41pm

Goodnight Lizardia.

615 Gus  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:25:47pm

re: #603 TheMatrix31

Maybe Romney felt Obama/Pelosi/Reid and the yes's breached their oath to defend the Constitution because he felt that there are some provisions in the bill which are unconstitutional?

Back to the show.

Mitt Romney Won’t Say if the Foundation of Romneycare is Unconstitutional

Barack Obama’s health insurance reform plan involves an individual mandate. So does the plan that Mitt Romney signed as Governor of Massachusetts. At the time Romney signed the plan, he was a moderate Republican and CommonwealthCare was considered a sober-minded centrist plan. Now Romney is a conservative, and conservatives have decided that ObamaCare is a socialist plot, so he’s had to make up a lot of reasons that their extremely similar plans are actually totally different. Part of the conservative assault, though, is hard for Romney to wriggle away from—the right’s claim that the individual mandate is unconstitutional. Obama’s got one, and Romney’s got one. So does Romney agree with the right that RomneyCare is unconstitutional, or will he defend Obama from this charge?

There are many that have said that Romneycare was and is unconstitutional.

Again, he was against it before he was for it.

616 bratwurst  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:25:59pm

re: #609 Obdicut

How is this a pile on? I think Dark Falcon is absolutely awesome. I think he'd also happily say that he held a very strongly defined ideological position.

He is also destined to be bought a beer by this prog as soon as he names the time and place.

617 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:26:09pm

re: #604 keloyd

Double taxation is an idiotic concept. Money gets taxes many, many, many times. It's taxed when my company gives it to me, it's taxed when I spend it, it's taxed as my income, too. I pay sales tax with money I paid income tax on.

It's a silly talking point.

618 TheMatrix31  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:26:27pm

re: #608 WindUpBird

Show me where I said I agree with him. Don't be a jerkoff.

I think the part in question is the provision for the federal government to fine people if they don't have/purchase a plan.

I think its dumb. It's not going to get overturned. Wishing so is futile. The power is too strong.

619 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:26:29pm

re: #613 Dark_Falcon

Big smooch for you!
*SMACK*

620 soap_man  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:26:47pm

re: #606 Floral Giraffe

DF is a good guy. The "pile on" is for shit.
There.
You made me say a bad word.
But, for DF, I will say MANY bad words.
Bring it on.

Quite fucking concur.

DF welcomed me, and many newcomers, with open arms. Made me feel comfortable. This was at a time when many newbies were welcomed with a mix of suspicion and hostility.

As a result, I've always got his back. And it's not just because he was nice to me. He is one of the few people around here who will admit he is wrong/out of line. That's more than can be said than about 95 percent of the posters here (including myself.)

621 swamprat  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:26:49pm

If I had to say what president Obama seemed to be similar to in his patterns, It would have to be either Roosevelt or Hoover. I pray it turns out to be Roosevelt.

622 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:27:24pm

re: #578 Obdicut

Dark_Falcon is admittedly and unashamedly partisan. It's not a bad thing, except that WuB really not that much of a wild lefty at all. I'm to the left of him on some things, he's to the left of me on some, and I'm not much of a 'lefty' either. (Except on social equality stuff, like gay marriage)

Both of us are pretty pragmatic. I think he's wrong about keeping health insurance companies in the system-- but for pragmatic, not ideological reasons. We're not ideological about financial stuff, and in many ways that appears as 'liberal'-- and that ought to give people pause.

The whole 'left/right' thingy is silly as a general metric, especially on financial issues. It only makes sense if the person is working from ideological grounds.

There's a reason i';m here instead of on Kos!

623 TheMatrix31  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:27:37pm

re: #610 Stanley Sea

What does that even mean?

624 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:27:53pm

I voted for Reagan twice, and I'm not ashamed to say it. Sure his first term wasn't that great but he had inherited a complete mess from Carter (almost as bad a mess as Obama has inherited from Bush). But he had the personal charisma to make you believe him when he said he was trying to do better. Reagan was not afraid to try things, and if they didn't work to admit that and try something else.

It wasn't that he had a godlike infallible intellect or was guided by a higher power as some would have you believe now and are too young to have actually experienced it. It was that when he screwed up, he admitted that he had, asked for your forgiveness, and then told you what he was going to try next.

The pundits and fanatical fanboys have turned Reagan into something he never was, and would probably be mortified by, a pseudo idealistic standard of perfection against which all other Presidents must be judged. If he were still here I think he would be the first to denounce that as complete bullshit.

625 TheMatrix31  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:29:01pm

re: #624 ausador

Sure his first term wasn't that great but he had inherited a complete mess from Carter (almost as bad a mess as Obama has inherited from Bush).

Blaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmme Bushhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

626 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:29:09pm

re: #618 TheMatrix31

Show me where I said I agree with him. Don't be a jerkoff.

I think the part in question is the provision for the federal government to fine people if they don't have/purchase a plan.

I think its dumb. It's not going to get overturned. Wishing so is futile. The power is too strong.

The mandate. Yes, that's what gets brought up a lot. It won't be overturned, because car insurance mandates would have been overturned first.

627 keloyd  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:29:51pm

re: #617 Obdicut

You know when you talk smack about my taxes, I just take my anger out on the servants. //

628 Obdicut  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:30:04pm

re: #612 Dark_Falcon

That's all I meant, by 'partisan'. I didn't mean to imply any sort of blind allegiance to the GOP, but rather to your own ideology. You've got it rather hammered out and, I think it would take a lot to make you re-evaluate your values and stances in any significant way.

629 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:30:06pm

re: #623 TheMatrix31

What does that even mean?

Ah, it's when someone drops a negative talking point & leaves. But you're still here, so I typed too soon I guess.

630 Lidane  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:30:35pm

re: #622 WindUpBird

There's a reason I'm here instead of on Kos!

Same here. I don't have anything against Kos or his site, but the crowd there wasn't for me. The crowd here is much more entertaining.

631 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:31:04pm

re: #603 TheMatrix31

Maybe Romney felt Obama/Pelosi/Reid and the yes's breached their oath to defend the Constitution because he felt that there are some provisions in the bill which are unconstitutional?

Back to the show.

'Unconstitutional' is a big and scary word which got flung around with some abandon on the left during the two Bush Jr. administrations, and has now been picked up by the right during the past year.

Key thing here is, that's not Romney's call. That's SCOTUS' call, and if they get called on to voice an opinion in this matter, theirs will be the last word.

So, nu. On with the battle.

632 Gus  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:31:12pm

Sure, let us claim states rights and deem HCR as unconstitutional.

While we're at it let's also deem the following as being unconstitutional since they may technically be if they go against the state's rights clause:

The Environmental Protection Agency
Roe v. Wade
Civil Rights Act of 1964
Clean Air Act
Clean Water Act
Voting Rights Act
The Patriot Act

You will find that the argument against some of the above was based on state's rights.

Yes, and a lot of other things that go beyond the original intent of the Constitution and leaves all such legalities to the states.

633 TheMatrix31  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:32:02pm

re: #629 Stanley Sea

I told everyone I'm trying to watch 24. I said it earlier, like twice.

634 The Shadow Do  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:32:18pm

re: #607 Alouette

I just found a job listing at USAjobs.gov for a database administrator and applied for it. Part of the application required narrative response on experience with various software packages, and have I ever build a database and a query engine to retrieve data.

I hope that I get an interview based on this application. It's been a long time since I've seen a job listing that was such a good fit for my skills.

Hoops, can you add me to the LGF prayer list that I should become employed?

(I already have a nonprofit foundation, a historical web archive which is supported from revenue earned through the Zionist Mall but a real day job is what I really need)

I ain't Hoops, and I ain't got any prayer pull but I sure do have my fingers crossed for you Alouette. You seem a very good and deserving person. Good luck!

635 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:32:51pm

re: #628 Obdicut

That's all I meant, by 'partisan'. I didn't mean to imply any sort of blind allegiance to the GOP, but rather to your own ideology. You've got it rather hammered out and, I think it would take a lot to make you re-evaluate your values and stances in any significant way.

I believe he's honest with his ideology. it's the snippy stuff I react poorly to.

Regardless of how people think i feel, I dig DF, and I think he's one of the cooler people on the blog. It may be BECAUSE I think he's so cool that when he says something I really dislike, I react more strongly. Frustration is not the same as hate, and all that.

636 TheMatrix31  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:32:56pm

Just becuase I think it's fucking bullshit doesn't mean I think fighting for unconstitutionality makes sense.

637 Gus  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:33:31pm

Eleventy!

638 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:33:51pm

re: #634 The Shadow Do

I ain't Hoops, and I ain't got any prayer pull but I sure do have my fingers crossed for you Alouette. You seem a very good and deserving person. Good luck!

Actually, if you rarely pray, you might try it. The novelty might just get His attention.

*with a grin*

639 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:34:23pm

re: #625 TheMatrix31

Blaaammme Bushhh

What about Carter?

640 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:35:58pm

re: #639 SanFranciscoZionist

What about Carter?

I don't like the blame Bush stuff for an interesting reason; it gives Republicans in congress a pass. I actually think Bush gets a raw deal, and people overlook the role of congress in stunts like Terri Schiavo.

641 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:36:22pm

re: #638 EmmmieG

Actually, if you rarely pray, you might try it. The novelty might just get His attention.

*with a grin*

Colbert does a bit with that in his Christmas show. "Long-time fan, first-time prayer..."

642 soap_man  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:36:42pm

OT (if there even is a real topic at this point): I went digging around my parents basement this evening, mostly out of boredom and their insistence that I go through my old stuff. I managed to find about six D&D manuals (maybe collector's items at this point) and the hard case that contained all these floppy disks for the ole' Apple IIe. Kings Quest bitches!

It's like I took a ride in the Hot Tub Time Machine.

643 TheMatrix31  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:37:22pm

re: #639 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, I wasnt alive during Carter's presidency, but everything I've learned lends me to believe that his horrendous term was due to events from Kennedy's assassination up til that point, plus his awful policies.

Bush tried to push for reform of Fannie and Freddie MULTIPLE times. As you know, F&F were the leading cause of the economic crash, coupled with the denial that there was a problem by a select few pieces of trash in Congress.

644 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:37:58pm

re: #635 WindUpBird

I believe he's honest with his ideology. it's the snippy stuff I react poorly to.

Regardless of how people think i feel, I dig DF, and I think he's one of the cooler people on the blog. It may be BECAUSE I think he's so cool that when he says something I really dislike, I react more strongly. Frustration is not the same as hate, and all that.

Fair enough. In that spirit, I'll explain myself. You often have a somewhat mocking tone when you disagree with people, especially towards what you define as tribalism. Sometimes that bothers me, because I've been on the wrong end of a lot of mean-spirited mocking in my time. I know you aren't mean-spirited, but sometimes my hackles get raised.

645 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:38:21pm

re: #642 soap_man

OT (if there even is a real topic at this point): I went digging around my parents basement this evening, mostly out of boredom and their insistence that I go through my old stuff. I managed to find about six D&D manuals (maybe collector's items at this point) and the hard case that contained all these floppy disks for the ole' Apple IIe. Kings Quest bitches!

It's like I took a ride in the Hot Tub Time Machine.

Oh nice! They're probably not worth anything, are they red box old school classic stuff? Or AD&D 2nd ed?

Also MUCH LOVE for old Sierra games. I played the hell out of tile-based RPGs like Ultima myself.

646 The Shadow Do  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:39:06pm

re: #638 EmmmieG

Actually, if you rarely pray, you might try it. The novelty might just get His attention.

*with a grin*

You might be on to something there. The NO Hornets, as a team, prayed tonight for a victory over my beloved Dallas Mavericks just before tip off (true!).

They won by 20. Can I count on this kind of return? (just kidding, the story is true and I am not poking fun). Just one of those things that makes you go...hmmmmm

647 soap_man  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:41:41pm

re: #645 WindUpBird

Oh nice! They're probably not worth anything, are they red box old school classic stuff? Or AD&D 2nd ed?

Also MUCH LOVE for old Sierra games. I played the hell out of tile-based RPGs like Ultima myself.

No such luck. Player's manual and DMG from AD&D first edition. The rest are second edition.

648 Jadespring  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:41:55pm

re: #642 soap_man

OT (if there even is a real topic at this point): I went digging around my parents basement this evening, mostly out of boredom and their insistence that I go through my old stuff. I managed to find about six D&D manuals (maybe collector's items at this point) and the hard case that contained all these floppy disks for the ole' Apple IIe. Kings Quest bitches!

It's like I took a ride in the Hot Tub Time Machine.

I have a couple of boxes of things like that. I've been offered quite a bit of money for my D&D stuff. A few years back I was invited to play a game with some way younger D&D players though I think it was more because they wanted me to bring my olden days manuals and modules once they discovered this 'old' lady used to play way back when. They went nutz over it and wanted to buy it all.

649 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:42:48pm

re: #622 WindUpBird

There's a reason i';m here instead of on Kos!

Yeah because your actually a LINO (liberal in name only) and some of the KOS people would denounce you!

/I wish I was kidding but unfortunately I'm not. This whole pigeonholing people by labels thing is getting pretty fucking tiresome. :(

650 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:43:30pm

re: #649 ausador

Are you linotyping?

//For shame.

651 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:43:49pm

re: #642 soap_man

OT (if there even is a real topic at this point): I went digging around my parents basement this evening, mostly out of boredom and their insistence that I go through my old stuff. I managed to find about six D&D manuals (maybe collector's items at this point) and the hard case that contained all these floppy disks for the ole' Apple IIe. Kings Quest bitches!

It's like I took a ride in the Hot Tub Time Machine.

They are collector's items. If you want to get some idea of their worth, call Games Plus in Mt. Prospect.

652 HappyWarrior  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:44:32pm

re: #649 ausador

Yeah because your actually a LINO (liberal in name only) and some of the KOS people would denounce you!

/I wish I was kidding but unfortunately I'm not. This whole pigeonholing people by labels thing is getting pretty fucking tiresome. :(

Ha, I know I would be denounced as LINO since I don't agree with conventional liberal wisdom on guns and abortion. Though I am very liberal on civil rights.

653 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:44:33pm

re: #640 WindUpBird

I don't like the blame Bush stuff for an interesting reason; it gives Republicans in congress a pass. I actually think Bush gets a raw deal, and people overlook the role of congress in stunts like Terri Schiavo.

That's fair, and there are certainly areas in which I think Bush did well. He was faced with an insane situation, and I try to consider that as I consider his legacy.

I'm just amazed at a presidency that can walk away like Evel Knievel from two shooting wars and an economic plummet like that, and a year later, if you mention that he had anything at all to do with the current situation, you're a mindless hater.

Let's just say that if the situations had been reversed, I think we'd be seeing a whole lot of Obama blaming going on, and some of the folks who now defend Bush would be in the forefront of explaining how Obama screwed up everthing.

Here lies Martin Elginbrod,
Have mercy on my soul, Lord God,
As I would do, were I Lord God,
And thou wert Martin Elginbrod.

Say what?

654 soap_man  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:44:52pm

re: #648 Jadespring

I have a couple of boxes of things like that. I've been offered quite a bit of money for my D&D stuff. A few years back I was invited to play a game with some way younger D&D players though I think it was more because they wanted me to bring my olden days manuals and modules once they discovered this 'old' lady used to play way back when. They went nutz over it and wanted to buy it all.

Did you sell? I haven't played in a very, very long time, but a guy at work is really into it. He tells me the older editions are in high demand because a lot of younger people just getting into it think the new stuff is unnecessarily complicated.

655 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:44:55pm

re: #644 Dark_Falcon

Fair enough. In that spirit, I'll explain myself. You often have a somewhat mocking tone when you disagree with people, especially towards what you define as tribalism. Sometimes that bothers me, because I've been on the wrong end of a lot of mean-spirited mocking in my time. I know you aren't mean-spirited, but sometimes my hackles get raised.

Oh, I do get that tone, I freely admit that I get my zings in, particularly when the disagreement isn't backed up, and I feel like I'm being handed talking points. There are certain people here who just push my buttons, and who have been so mean-spirited in the past that I feel no reason to be polite.

I try not to mock you, because I consider you an equal, and you don't just hand me talking points, you explain yourself. I get mad at you for some of the stuff that's more just reactive, but that's not the same. ;-)

656 bratwurst  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:45:37pm

re: #641 SanFranciscoZionist

Colbert does a bit with that in his Christmas show. "Long-time fan, first-time prayer..."

If you didn't see his bit on "social justice" that there was a short thread on here last week, PLEASE check it out. Classic Colbert.

657 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:46:07pm

re: #655 WindUpBird

Oh, I do get that tone, I freely admit that I get my zings in, particularly when the disagreement isn't backed up, and I feel like I'm being handed talking points. There are certain people here who just push my buttons, and who have been so mean-spirited in the past that I feel no reason to be polite.

I try not to mock you, because I consider you an equal, and you don't just hand me talking points, you explain yourself. I get mad at you for some of the stuff that's more just reactive, but that's not the same. ;-)

Talking points:

*stand up straight
*keep your hands by your side
*avoid "er" and "um"
*enunciate, and speak slowly

//Hate me now?

658 HappyWarrior  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:46:19pm

re: #653 SanFranciscoZionist

That's fair, and there are certainly areas in which I think Bush did well. He was faced with an insane situation, and I try to consider that as I consider his legacy.

I'm just amazed at a presidency that can walk away like Evel Knievel from two shooting wars and an economic plummet like that, and a year later, if you mention that he had anything at all to do with the current situation, you're a mindless hater.

Let's just say that if the situations had been reversed, I think we'd be seeing a whole lot of Obama blaming going on, and some of the folks who now defend Bush would be in the forefront of explaining how Obama screwed up everthing.

Here lies Martin Elginbrod,
Have mercy on my soul, Lord God,
As I would do, were I Lord God,
And thou wert Martin Elginbrod.

Say what?

Yep, I agree with what you're saying. And it's not like the Reagan administration never criticized Carter either. Not that he didn't deserve criticism but it's not like Republican administrations have abstained from criticizing their Democratic predecessors.

659 Lidane  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:46:45pm

Yet again, Glenn Beck has gone full retard:

Media Matters Video

LOL forever.

660 Silvergirl  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:47:35pm

re: #209 darthstar

Took a second to check out what Anderson Cooper was discussing on his show...the headline: "Obama's Plunge in the Polls"...WTF? President Obama is still over 50% approval. How is that a "plunge"? And with Health Care passing, his numbers are only going to rise.

Oh, well. Someone's got to hype up controversy where there is none.

He's not over 50%, though Gallup currently has him at 50. His average approval is 47.4. He's not my favorite president, but I wouldn't call his ratings dismal. Bush spent years around the same, as as we know, plunged into the 20s before his time was up. I think the reason for the attention to Obama's numbers is that he entered with high ones and the descent has been fast.

661 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:47:54pm

re: #655 WindUpBird

Oh, I do get that tone, I freely admit that I get my zings in, particularly when the disagreement isn't backed up, and I feel like I'm being handed talking points. There are certain people here who just push my buttons, and who have been so mean-spirited in the past that I feel no reason to be polite.

I try not to mock you, because I consider you an equal, and you don't just hand me talking points, you explain yourself. I get mad at you for some of the stuff that's more just reactive, but that's not the same. ;-)

OK. I'll work on getting people past the talking point for you, then. It's something I want to do anyways.

662 soap_man  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:48:32pm

re: #656 bratwurst

If you didn't see his bit on "social justice" that there was a short thread on here last week, PLEASE check it out. Classic Colbert.

Ha! And this conversation comes full circle. Steven Colbert is an avid D&Der.

663 HappyWarrior  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:48:33pm

re: #659 Lidane

Yet again, Glenn Beck has gone full retard:

[Link: mediamatters.org...]

LOL forever.

Bwahahhahaha,

I'm sorry but hahahhahaha.
What a dumbass.

664 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:48:34pm

re: #649 ausador

Yeah because your actually a LINO (liberal in name only) and some of the KOS people would denounce you!

/I wish I was kidding but unfortunately I'm not. This whole pigeonholing people by labels thing is getting pretty fucking tiresome. :(

Some of them would, yes. :D

I am reactive against what I call liberal tribalism as well. Like implicitly accepting weird psuedo-medical quakery. Or pretending that third-wave feminists like Andrea Dworkin are really brilliant and deep. Or beating people about the head with white privilege. Or all the viciousness against Bush, like he was some warlock or something. The stole-the-elekshun!11 stuff. The environmentalism-to-the-point-of-madness thing. I am not giving up my car. I plan on buying a car with a corvette engine in it eventually, and I'm not going to be made to feel guilty about it.

665 TheMatrix31  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:48:43pm

I don't like when people throw out the "Oh, you're just spewing talking points" crap when all they end up doing in response is saying "Oh, you're just a right-wing, tea-party-loving, tribalist-nativist, gay-basher lunatic wingnut"

666 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:49:07pm

re: #631 SanFranciscoZionist

'Unconstitutional' is a big and scary word which got flung around with some abandon on the left during the two Bush Jr. administrations, and has now been picked up by the right during the past year.

Key thing here is, that's not Romney's call. That's SCOTUS' call, and if they get called on to voice an opinion in this matter, theirs will be the last word.

So, nu. On with the battle.

Unless and until a Constitutional issue reaches the Courts, it is absolutely a legitimate and proper line of political attack on legislation. I have no problem with such positions being taken, whether by the left or the right, so long as no one advocates that the law be flaunted so long as it is on the books.

667 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:49:33pm

re: #657 EmmmieG

Talking points:

*stand up straight
*keep your hands by your side
*avoid "er" and "um"
*enunciate, and speak slowly

//Hate me now?

I don't do ANY OF THESE XD

let's see, I talk fast, I use a lot of ums, I slouch (and have scoleosis), and I'm always fiddling with pencils and such :D

668 Jadespring  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:49:52pm

re: #654 soap_man

Did you sell? I haven't played in a very, very long time, but a guy at work is really into it. He tells me the older editions are in high demand because a lot of younger people just getting into it think the new stuff is unnecessarily complicated.

No I didn't. I haven't played for years either and likely won't be playing anytime soon. It's complete and total nostalgia though and would be like selling an old friend. Yeah geeky I know but every now and then I take a look at them and remember the hours upon hours of fun and the people I played with. It's amazing how much I recall specific details about campaigns and still feel the pangs over a character that died.

669 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:51:13pm

re: #666 Spare O'Lake

Unless and until a Constitutional issue reaches the Courts, it is absolutely a legitimate and proper line of political attack on legislation. I have no problem with such positions being taken, whether by the left or the right, so long as no one advocates that the law be flaunted so long as it is on the books.

it's not legitimate unless a constitutional lawyer who isn't a hack party operative has a real case and can explain it. That's heading down into Ron paul territory, invoking the constitution for everything.

670 Lidane  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:51:35pm

re: #652 HappyWarrior

Ha, I know I would be denounced as LINO since I don't agree with conventional liberal wisdom on guns and abortion. Though I am very liberal on civil rights.

I've been called a far right wingnut because of the whole gun thing. I laughed and told them that no, I just live in Texas and have a bunch of hunters, sportsmen and law enforcement in my family.

671 The Shadow Do  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:52:15pm

re: #666 Spare O'Lake

Unless and until a Constitutional issue reaches the Courts, it is absolutely a legitimate and proper line of political attack on legislation. I have no problem with such positions being taken, whether by the left or the right, so long as no one advocates that the law be flaunted so long as it is on the books.

How do you feel about Bush's illegal war?

672 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:52:30pm

re: #668 Jadespring

No I didn't. I haven't played for years either and likely won't be playing anytime soon. It's complete and total nostalgia though and would be like selling an old friend. Yeah geeky I know but every now and then I take a look at them and remember the hours upon hours of fun and the people I played with. It's amazing how much I recall specific details about campaigns and still feel the pangs over a character that died.

It's weird, the way I play, i tend not to get as attached to characters, because my partner runs games as long form episodes, and then changes the setting. So we do 6 months of a vampire game, 6 months of a fantasy game, a year or two of a modern dark-urban-myth thing, etc.

673 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:52:51pm

re: #671 The Shadow Do

How do you feel about Bush's illegal war?

That's another liberal talking point I hate :D

674 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:53:03pm

re: #667 WindUpBird

I don't do ANY OF THESE XD

let's see, I talk fast, I use a lot of ums, I slouch (and have scoleosis), and I'm always fiddling with pencils and such :D

You don't do the fig leaf, do you? I had that one "beaten" out of me at one time.

675 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:53:21pm

re: #670 Lidane

I've been called a far right wingnut because of the whole gun thing. I laughed and told them that no, I just live in Texas and have a bunch of hunters, sportsmen and law enforcement in my family.

They'd be calling me a wingnut too! I got no problem with guns.

676 HappyWarrior  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:53:22pm

re: #670 Lidane

I've been called a far right wingnut because of the whole gun thing. I laughed and told them that no, I just live in Texas and have a bunch of hunters, sportsmen and law enforcement in my family.

My mom's side of the family is like the guys from the Deer Hunter. Eastern European and Western Pennsylvanian to the core but truth be told it was Virginia Tech that changed my mind. On abortion, I figured I can't be a huge opponent of the death penalty and pro choice. Not knocking anyone who is that but I felt it was inconsistent with my philosophy.

677 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:53:33pm

re: #659 Lidane

Yet again, Glenn Beck has gone full retard:

[Link: mediamatters.org...]

LOL forever.

Glenn Beck remains a fool, and what's worse, he's a fool who can't seem to do his research. This one is so bad that only "brain dead" describes it.

678 soap_man  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:53:39pm

re: #668 Jadespring

No I didn't. I haven't played for years either and likely won't be playing anytime soon. It's complete and total nostalgia though and would be like selling an old friend. Yeah geeky I know but every now and then I take a look at them and remember the hours upon hours of fun and the people I played with. It's amazing how much I recall specific details about campaigns and still feel the pangs over a character that died.

The same just happened to me. I was talking to that guy from work about it, and I said, "I remember how excited I was when I got that sword that automatically decapitated someone when you rolled a 20. What was that again? The Vorpal Sword right?"

I was stunned that I remembered the name of the damn sword.

679 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:53:42pm

re: #674 EmmmieG

You don't do the fig leaf, do you? I had that one "beaten" out of me at one time.

??? Fig leaf?

680 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:53:48pm

re: #625 TheMatrix31

Blaaammme Bushhh

Give me a fucking break, what I said was that Reagan had inherited almost as big a pile of crap from Carter as Obama has from Bush. I didn't "blame Bush" I am just stating economic fact here. I never said one word about whether Carter or Bush were the ones who caused the frickking problem at the time.

You seem to be getting a bit too reflexively defensive there Matrix, maybe you need a break from defending lies and mis-statements?

681 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:54:04pm

re: #674 EmmmieG

That does not sound good. I'd better explain.

"the fig leaf," for those of you who haven't had speech, is when you put your hands in front of you, your hands joined, when speaking.

It's called the fig leaf because of where your hands end up, and it's considered improper.

682 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:55:10pm

So, how was everyone's first day in post-apocalyptic America???

683 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:55:18pm

re: #681 EmmmieG

That does not sound good. I'd better explain.

"the fig leaf," for those of you who haven't had speech, is when you put your hands in front of you, your hands joined, when speaking.

It's called the fig leaf because of where your hands end up, and it's considered improper.

Oh! I don't do that. I gesture wildly. I use my hands a lot. I also have a really loud voice, and a great metal yell. :D

684 darthstar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:55:48pm

re: #659 Lidane

Yet again, Glenn Beck has gone full retard:

[Link: mediamatters.org...]

LOL forever.

Full retard is an understatement...How long can Fox keep this piece of shit on the air?

685 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:55:56pm

re: #682 Varek Raith

So, how was everyone's first day in post-apocalyptic America???

I want my Mad Max Pursuit Special!

No joke though, i'm seriously looking into painting my car flat black. :D

686 Gus  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:56:04pm

re: #653 SanFranciscoZionist

That's fair, and there are certainly areas in which I think Bush did well. He was faced with an insane situation, and I try to consider that as I consider his legacy.

I'm just amazed at a presidency that can walk away like Evel Knievel from two shooting wars and an economic plummet like that, and a year later, if you mention that he had anything at all to do with the current situation, you're a mindless hater.

Let's just say that if the situations had been reversed, I think we'd be seeing a whole lot of Obama blaming going on, and some of the folks who now defend Bush would be in the forefront of explaining how Obama screwed up everthing.

Here lies Martin Elginbrod,
Have mercy on my soul, Lord God,
As I would do, were I Lord God,
And thou wert Martin Elginbrod.

Say what?

I don't get it either.

George W. Bush
Statement of Administration Policy: H.R. 1461 - Federal Housing Finance Reform Act of 2005
October 26, 2005

STATEMENT OF ADMINISTRATION POLICY

(House)
(Rep. Baker (R) Louisiana and 19 cosponsors)

The Administration has long called for legislation to create a stronger, more effective regulatory regime to improve oversight of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and the Federal Home Loan Banks ("housing government-sponsored enterprises" or "housing GSEs") and appreciates the considerable efforts of Chairman Oxley and Chairman Baker in crafting H.R. 1461. However,

H.R. 1461 fails to include key elements that are essential to protect the safety and soundness of the housing finance system and the broader financial system at large. As a result, the Administration opposes the bill.

The regulatory regime envisioned by H.R. 1461 is considerably weaker than that which governs other large, complex financial institutions. This regime is of particular concern given that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac currently hold only about half of the capital of comparable financial institutions. In order for a financial regulator to be respected and credible, it must have the authority and ability to adjust capital requirements of the institutions it oversees as circumstances dictate to ensure prudential operations. An effective oversight regime must also provide for clear review of business activities to ensure the integrity of the housing finance system and consistency with the GSEs' housing mission. The Administration does not believe that the housing GSEs should be exempt from these important standards of world-class regulation.

CONTINUES

So essentially the Bush White House rejected the proposed regulations presented by the Republican majorities in the House and Senate. This was in 2005:

109 US Congress
President of the Senate: Dick Cheney (R)
President pro tempore: Ted Stevens (R)
Speaker of the House: Dennis Hastert (R)
Members: 100 Senators
435 Representatives
5 Non-voting members
Senate Majority: Republican Party
House Majority: Republican Party

This bill never became law. This bill was proposed in a previous session of Congress. Sessions of Congress last two years, and at the end of each session all proposed bills and resolutions that haven't passed are cleared from the books. Members often reintroduce bills that did not come up for debate under a new number in the next session.

687 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:56:17pm

re: #684 darthstar

Full retard is an understatement...How long can Fox keep this piece of shit on the air?

I love that movie. :D

688 Silvergirl  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:56:34pm

re: #681 EmmmieG

That does not sound good. I'd better explain.

"the fig leaf," for those of you who haven't had speech, is when you put your hands in front of you, your hands joined, when speaking.

It's called the fig leaf because of where your hands end up, and it's considered improper.

It's also a favorite stance for people in group photos. The front row? Fig-leafed.

689 Racer X  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:56:47pm

So, what are we smoking tonight?

690 The Shadow Do  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:57:00pm

re: #677 Dark_Falcon

Glenn Beck remains a fool, and what's worse, he's a fool who can't seem to do his research. This one is so bad that only "brain dead" describes it.

I think I have it figured out. Glen Beck is ignorant. Pretty sure he is not eager to change that though. He is doing just dandy as is.

691 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:57:08pm

re: #682 Varek Raith

So, how was everyone's first day in post-apocalyptic America???

Same as most Mondays. I'm unhappy with the outcome, but I'm moving on.

692 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:57:39pm

re: #653 SanFranciscoZionist


I'm just amazed at a presidency that can walk away like Evel Knievel from two shooting wars and an economic plummet like that, and a year later, if you mention that he had anything at all to do with the current situation, you're a mindless hater.

Oh man, the Evel Knievel image! That kicks my ass :D

693 HappyWarrior  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:57:43pm

re: #682 Varek Raith

So, how was everyone's first day in post-apocalyptic America???

I woke up to a thunderstorm heh. I thought that someone would try to explain it as divine punishment but then I remembered how awesome thunderstorms are.

694 darthstar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:57:50pm

re: #687 WindUpBird

I love that movie. :D

Heh...when Schwarzenegger was running for Governor here in CA, I got a t-shirt with his picture on it that read "Total Retard" in the movie-title font. He's actually not screwed up as much as I thought he would. But I can accept moderate behavior.

695 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:57:51pm

re: #689 Racer X

So, what are we smoking tonight?

Nothing yet :(

696 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:58:15pm

re: #691 Dark_Falcon

Same as most Mondays. I'm unhappy with the outcome, but I'm moving on.

I still don't know what the hell to make of the bill...
:/

697 WindHorse  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:58:17pm

where my head is at....

Youtube Video
698 keloyd  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:58:19pm

re: #671 The Shadow Do

I have never understood how a war is 'illegal'. Object to the Iraq war all you like, it's not hard to do. I may join in. But illegal? The UN's record on human rights is pretty slipshod, and they have no meaningful legal authority on this. A constitutionally elected president started it. Congress had a quorum of members present when they voted on it. The parliamentarian of Congress raised no procedural objections. It was many things, but it was also legal.

699 TheMatrix31  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:58:29pm

re: #680 ausador

Give me a fucking break, what I said was that Reagan had inherited almost as big a pile of crap from Carter as Obama has from Bush. I didn't "blame Bush" I am just stating economic fact here. I never said one word about whether Carter or Bush were the ones who caused the frickking problem at the time.

You seem to be getting a bit too reflexively defensive there Matrix, maybe you need a break from defending lies and mis-statements?

"almost as bad as the one inherited from Bush" sounds eerily like what people say when they blame Bush. Apologies if I construed your point wrong. Regardless, its not your place to suggest anything to me.

700 Silvergirl  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:58:33pm

re: #682 Varek Raith

So, how was everyone's first day in post-apocalyptic America???

Just like the first day of school.
I cried, sucked my thumb, and hid my face in my mama's skirt.

701 swamprat  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:58:53pm

re: #682 Varek Raith

The gloating seems downright testy.

I think everyone is nervous.

It'll be ok.

702 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:59:12pm

re: #694 darthstar

Heh...when Schwarzenegger was running for Governor here in CA, I got a t-shirt with his picture on it that read "Total Retard" in the movie-title font. He's actually not screwed up as much as I thought he would. But I can accept moderate behavior.

I think Arnold has an impossible task with the Prop 23 (or whatever) thing about the supermajority requirement. He tried to be a chest beater, realized it wasn't working, and chilled out. And I think he's doing the bets he can with a monstrous situation.

703 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:59:12pm

re: #690 The Shadow Do

I think I have it figured out. Glen Beck is ignorant. Pretty sure he is not eager to change that though. He is doing just dandy as is.

I gues I just don't understand that sort of mentality. If I made a mistake like that, I'd feel ashamed.

704 The Shadow Do  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:59:17pm

re: #682 Varek Raith

So, how was everyone's first day in post-apocalyptic America???

Much better after I got my enema from Obama. HCR!

705 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:59:48pm

re: #640 WindUpBird

I don't like the blame Bush stuff for an interesting reason; it gives Republicans in congress a pass. I actually think Bush gets a raw deal, and people overlook the role of congress in stunts like Terri Schiavo.

Who's bright idea was it to invade Iraq?

706 soap_man  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 9:59:55pm

re: #691 Dark_Falcon

Same as most Mondays. I'm unhappy with the outcome, but I'm moving on.

Hopefully they will quickly eliminate anything in this bill that is showing negative effects. Just keep the stuff that appears to be working.

But "quickly" and "congress" don't go together that often.

707 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:00:06pm

re: #703 Dark_Falcon

I gues I just don't understand that sort of mentality. If I made a mistake like that, I'd feel ashamed.

he's being paid millions and millions to do an act. I'm sure he just doesn't care. :/

708 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:00:45pm

re: #706 soap_man

Hopefully they will quickly eliminate anything in this bill that is showing negative effects. Just keep the stuff that appears to be working.

But "quickly" and "congress" don't go together that often.

I'm guessing the ethical constraints on insurance will stay. :)

709 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:00:49pm

re: #703 Dark_Falcon

I gues I just don't understand that sort of mentality. If I made a mistake like that, I'd feel ashamed.

I don't think he cares. He's basically trying to brainwash his audience.

710 darthstar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:00:53pm

re: #690 The Shadow Do

I think I have it figured out. Glen Beck is ignorant. Pretty sure he is not eager to change that though. He is doing just dandy as is.

No, Glenn Beck is an act. He, like Rush, uses incendiary rhetoric to get ratings, which sells advertising, which pays his salary. His comments are designed to get him attention. Insulting a civil-rights veteran and congressman is not illegal, and he can do it without getting too much flack. I mean, it's not like he called the president a racist (again).

711 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:01:29pm

re: #689 Racer X

So, what are we smoking tonight?

I just have scotch over here, and Joe Joe's vanilla sandwich cookies from TJ's.

712 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:01:34pm

re: #643 TheMatrix31

As you know, F&F were the leading cause of the economic crash, coupled with the denial that there was a problem by a select few pieces of trash in Congress.


BZZZZZZZT: Sorry but that answer was incorrect, would you like to try again?

/That is like saying Mastercard is responsible for peoples credit card debt. It just isn't true.

713 Gus  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:01:59pm

re: #712 ausador

BZZZT: Sorry but that answer was incorrect, would you like to try again?

/That is like saying Mastercard is responsible for peoples credit card debt. It just isn't true.

Bear Stearns

714 TheMatrix31  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:02:02pm

re: #712 ausador

Alright then. Tell me what happened.

715 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:02:35pm

re: #669 WindUpBird

it's not legitimate unless a constitutional lawyer who isn't a hack party operative has a real case and can explain it. That's heading down into Ron paul territory, invoking the constitution for everything.

Well I certainly would agree that a reasonable case needs to be articulated in order for the political attack to deserve to be taken seriously. However I do not agree that only an expert of the caliber you describe is qualified to make the argument, assholes like Ron Paul notwithstanding.

716 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:02:39pm

re: #711 eclectic infidel

I just have scotch over here, and Joe Joe's vanilla sandwich cookies from TJ's.

How 'bout the Christmas mint Joe Joe's? Best thing ever.

717 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:02:54pm

re: #643 TheMatrix31

Bush tried to push for reform of Fannie and Freddie MULTIPLE times. As you know, F&F were the leading cause of the economic crash, coupled with the denial that there was a problem by a select few pieces of trash in Congress.

This is so wrong I don't even know where to begin. This is unbelievably, psychotically, breathtakingly wrong.

718 WindHorse  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:02:54pm

Anyone else see the similarity?

Image: donkey-braying_651164.jpg

[Link: d.yimg.com...]

719 darthstar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:03:14pm

re: #703 Dark_Falcon

I gues I just don't understand that sort of mentality. If I made a mistake like that, I'd feel ashamed.

It's not a mistake. It's intentional. That's the thing about Beck, Limbaugh, Coulter, etc. They get attention for saying off the wall shit...and they know that their faithful followers will believe whatever they say, so long as it supports their pre-conceived notions. Beck feeds the hate, and in turn the hate feeds him.

720 The Shadow Do  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:03:18pm

re: #698 keloyd

I have never understood how a war is 'illegal'. Object to the Iraq war all you like, it's not hard to do. I may join in. But illegal? The UN's record on human rights is pretty slipshod, and they have no meaningful legal authority on this. A constitutionally elected president started it. Congress had a quorum of members present when they voted on it. The parliamentarian of Congress raised no procedural objections. It was many things, but it was also legal.

Many Democrats have had a problem with that position, I'm sad to say.

Though it may be legal now, I haven't heard that kind of talk for a while now...

721 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:03:38pm

re: #715 Spare O'Lake

Well I certainly would agree that a reasonable case needs to be articulated in order for the political attack to deserve to be taken seriously. However I do not agree that only an expert of the caliber you describe is qualified to make the argument, assholes like Ron Paul notwithstanding.

Let's just say I have not had my doors blown off by non-lawyers talking big about the constitutionality of legislation lately.

722 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:03:41pm

re: #716 Stanley Sea

How 'bout the Christmas mint Joe Joe's? Best thing ever.

I have not had those, but I will look for them as the season approaches. Thank you.

723 soap_man  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:03:43pm

re: #710 darthstar

No, Glenn Beck is an act. He, like Rush, uses incendiary rhetoric to get ratings, which sells advertising, which pays his salary. His comments are designed to get him attention. Insulting a civil-rights veteran and congressman is not illegal, and he can do it without getting too much flack. I mean, it's not like he called the president a racist (again).

I think Rush is more aware of it than Beck. In terms of purposefully saying outrageous things for ratings/attention, I believe Rush is "acting" more often than Beck.

So, I guess that will be my closing statement. G'Night all.

724 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:04:06pm

re: #717 WindUpBird

This is so wrong I don't even know where to begin. This is unbelievably, psychotically, breathtakingly wrong.

That's where I gave up.

725 Jadespring  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:04:45pm

re: #678 soap_man

The same just happened to me. I was talking to that guy from work about it, and I said, "I remember how excited I was when I got that sword that automatically decapitated someone when you rolled a 20. What was that again? The Vorpal Sword right?"

I was stunned that I remembered the name of the damn sword.

LOL. I don't think I can remember names of specific equipment. I do however remember the last time I played with a character that I had for two years. The party was in a town and we had just walked into an alley beside the tavern and the major NPC we'd been searching for months and a bunch of thugs jumped out from behind some barrels. At that point it was really late and we 'paused' for the night because the fight would take a while. For reasons I can't remember we never got together again to continue.
In my minds eye it was like leaving a movie on pause right at the climax...forever. I still wish I knew how that story would have ended. :)

726 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:04:55pm

re: #707 WindUpBird

he's being paid millions and millions to do an act. I'm sure he just doesn't care. :/

re: #709 Stanley Sea

I don't think he cares. He's basically trying to brainwash his audience.

Like I said: I just don't get that sort of liar. I was raised not to act like that and I've never felt any inclination to lie like that.

727 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:05:12pm

re: #722 eclectic infidel

I have not had those, but I will look for them as the season approaches. Thank you.

Oh boy. I buy a dozen boxes every year. Pieces of candy cane in the white cream. Unbelievable.

728 darthstar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:05:23pm

re: #718 WindHorse

Anyone else see the similarity?

[Link: www.mediastorehouse.com...]

[Link: d.yimg.com...]

I'll bet you forwared the Michelle Obama/Cheetah pic too.

729 TheMatrix31  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:05:32pm

re: #717 WindUpBird

This is so wrong I don't even know where to begin. This is unbelievably, psychotically, breathtakingly wrong.

Don't be a fucking asshole then and tell me where it's wrong. Honestly. I want to know.

730 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:05:38pm

re: #718 WindHorse

Anyone else see the similarity?

[Link: www.mediastorehouse.com...]

[Link: d.yimg.com...]

LOL! Yes.

731 WindHorse  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:05:58pm

re: #728 darthstar

who?

732 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:06:02pm

re: #728 darthstar

I'll bet you forwared the Michelle Obama/Cheetah pic too.

Or the Bush/chimp pic...
Oh...wait...
*rolls eyes*

733 freetoken  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:06:59pm

re: #502 Killgore Trout


Free Speech? What should I do?

Can you stream (for no extra charge) just the shows/episodes you want, via the internet?

734 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:07:06pm

re: #727 Stanley Sea

Oh boy. I buy a dozen boxes every year. Pieces of candy cane in the white cream. Unbelievable.

I recall that TJs used to carry chocolate covered cookies that were mint as well. They've long since disappeared from the shelves but I remember them being addictive.

735 soap_man  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:07:57pm

re: #725 Jadespring

LOL. I don't think I can remember names of specific equipment. I do however remember the last time I played with a character that I had for two years. The party was in a town and we had just walked into an alley beside the tavern and the major NPC we'd been searching for months and a bunch of thugs jumped out from behind some barrels. At that point it was really late and we 'paused' for the night because the fight would take a while. For reasons I can't remember we never got together again to continue.
In my minds eye it was like leaving a movie on pause right at the climax...forever. I still wish I knew how that story would have ended. :)

Indeed. :)

Okay, now I'm leaving.

736 darthstar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:08:14pm

re: #732 Varek Raith

Or the Bush/chimp pic...
Oh...wait...
*rolls eyes*

I never understood the bush/chimp thing. Sure, a trained monkey might have made a better president, but the bush/chimp images fell flat with me. And, it should be noted, they weren't exactly based on old racist allusions.

737 Gus  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:08:24pm

Watch this.

FRONTLINE: inside the meltdown

As the housing bubble burst and trillions of dollars' worth of toxic mortgages began to go bad in 2007, fear spread through the massive firms that form the heart of Wall Street. By the spring of 2008, burdened by billions of dollars of bad mortgages, the investment bank Bear Stearns was the subject of rumors that it would soon fail.

"Rumors are such that they can just plain put you out of business," Bear Stearns' former CEO Alan "Ace" Greenberg tells FRONTLINE.

The company's stock had dropped from $171 to $57 a share, and it was hours from declaring bankruptcy. Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke acted. "It was clear that this had to be contained. There was no doubt in his mind," says Bernanke's colleague, economist Mark Gertler.

Bernanke, a former economics professor from Princeton, specialized in studying the Great Depression. "He more than anybody else appreciated what would happen if it got out of control," Gertler explains...

Frontline Inside The Meltdown Part 1 of 6
Frontline Inside The Meltdown Part 2 of 6
Frontline Inside The Meltdown Part 3 of 6
Frontline Inside The Meltdown Part 4 of 6
Frontline Inside The Meltdown Part 5 of 6
Frontline Inside The Meltdown Part 6 of 6

738 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:09:12pm

re: #736 darthstar

I never understood the bush/chimp thing. Sure, a trained monkey might have made a better president, but the bush/chimp images fell flat with me. And, it should be noted, they weren't exactly based on old racist allusions.

It's the whole "compare the opposition to animals" that I don't like.
;)

739 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:09:21pm

re: #664 WindUpBird

Some of them would, yes. :D

I am reactive against what I call liberal tribalism as well. Like implicitly accepting weird psuedo-medical quakery. Or pretending that third-wave feminists like Andrea Dworkin are really brilliant and deep.

Andrea's second wave. The third wave was more like one of those tsunamis that gets all talked up, and then is just a little splash.

740 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:09:28pm

re: #737 Gus 802

Thanks Gus! Matrix - really - watch these.

741 TheMatrix31  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:09:49pm

re: #737 Gus 802

Thanks Gus, I'll check it out.

742 darthstar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:10:34pm

re: #738 Varek Raith

It's the whole "compare the opposition to animals" that I don't like.
;)

I'm with you. It never struck me as an effective way of criticizing someone...especially someone who made so many mistakes that they spoke for themselves.

743 darthstar  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:11:18pm

okay...bed time...bye all.

744 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:12:11pm

re: #692 WindUpBird

Oh man, the Evel Knievel image! That kicks my ass :D

I see Bush in a fancy leather jacket, with a big grin.

745 avanti  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:12:15pm

Scary question from a Hot air poster, do folks really think like this ?

"When is the appropriate time to take up arms against your own country? What line must be crossed before men of action should be expected to take the drastic last step of fighting tyranny in this country and actually take action, violent even though it may require, to protect and defend the Constitution from domestic enemies?

The promisekeepers.org website doesn’t delve into it far enough. It is not enough to refuse to fire on your own fellow citizens. When must you defend your fellow citizens from the tyranny of the majority? Even if it requires violence. If you haven’t thought of this, after the election, if the country doesn’t change direction (like listening to the citizens and enacting legislation according to their preferences), what would have to happen to cause a reasonable man to take up arms against Congress and the Office of the President, and the military folks sworn to protect Washington???

Sorry to hijack the thread, but you guys brought the subject up.

Subsunk"

746 Gus  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:12:51pm

re: #741 TheMatrix31

Thanks Gus, I'll check it out.

Cool beans. Yeah, it's very interesting and is impartial.

747 Racer X  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:12:58pm

re: #737 Gus 802

Watch this.

FRONTLINE: inside the meltdown

Frontline Inside The Meltdown Part 1 of 6
Frontline Inside The Meltdown Part 2 of 6
Frontline Inside The Meltdown Part 3 of 6
Frontline Inside The Meltdown Part 4 of 6
Frontline Inside The Meltdown Part 5 of 6
Frontline Inside The Meltdown Part 6 of 6

Excellent post - thanks!

What led up to that was a chain reaction of events. The broadening of the CRA; scandal after scandal at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac; and the horrific oversight of both the house and senate finance committee's were borderline criminal.

IMHO.

748 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:13:24pm

re: #747 Racer X

Excellent post - thanks!

What led up to that was a chain reaction of events. The broadening of the CRA; scandal after scandal at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac; and the horrific oversight of both the house and senate finance committee's were borderline criminal.

IMHO.

It was a perfect shit storm, of sorts.

749 Racer X  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:14:57pm

re: #748 Varek Raith

It was a perfect shit storm, of sorts.

Indeed.

The people who were put in charge to prevent the shit storm failed miserably. We all know who they are.

750 freetoken  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:15:02pm

re: #745 avanti

It would appear that yes, people do think like that.

751 HappyWarrior  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:15:49pm

re: #745 avanti

Scary question from a Hot air poster, do folks really think like this ?

"When is the appropriate time to take up arms against your own country? What line must be crossed before men of action should be expected to take the drastic last step of fighting tyranny in this country and actually take action, violent even though it may require, to protect and defend the Constitution from domestic enemies?

The promisekeepers.org website doesn’t delve into it far enough. It is not enough to refuse to fire on your own fellow citizens. When must you defend your fellow citizens from the tyranny of the majority? Even if it requires violence. If you haven’t thought of this, after the election, if the country doesn’t change direction (like listening to the citizens and enacting legislation according to their preferences), what would have to happen to cause a reasonable man to take up arms against Congress and the Office of the President, and the military folks sworn to protect Washington???

Sorry to hijack the thread, but you guys brought the subject up.

Subsunk"

This kinda thought scares me. I am surprised though I didn't see the tired Jefferson quote about blood of tyrants on the liberty tree.

752 TheMatrix31  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:16:55pm

I'm going to sign off. Suns game finished and has me tense as shit.

Later.

753 keloyd  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:17:07pm

WUB and Matrix -
Yall play nice! Of all the lizards here who do not bow to my genius and brilliant Machiavellian political wisdom, and humility :P , WUB disagrees more agreeably and articulately than most.

It is unbelievably, psychotically, breathtakingly right to point out that Democrats including, but not limited to Barney Frank played a big role in giving banks a very unhealthy set of incentives to lend to people of inadequate ability to pay.

OTOH, I have no distinct memory of W having a role in this. He burned up so much political capital on the wars and social security reform, that I don't remember him doing much of anything about Freddy and Fannie. I would blame Bush for being too politically weakened to fix the thing a few years before it imploded.

754 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:17:35pm

re: #745 avanti

We can only hope that the hype will die down once Hot Air/Free Republic and like-minded folks realize that their freedom is not in jeopardy. I remember a similar hype after 9/11 with respect to the threat of Jihad on America.

755 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:18:41pm

re: #682 Varek Raith

So, how was everyone's first day in post-apocalyptic America???

My day was going fine until the "Neighborhood Health Care Collective Committee" showed up at my door and chastised me for buying and drinking beer. (although they did say that the fact that I walk a block to the store instead of driving every time does count in my favor a little)

It was going pretty well until I pulled out a cigarette and lit it, then they all ran away screaming about toxins or something...

Now I have an eviction notice stuck to my door (glued on with oatmeal I think) and this yellow tape that says "Biohazard" strung across the walkway 10 feet on either side of my door.

/Do you think I should be worried?

756 Silvergirl  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:18:48pm

re: #752 TheMatrix31

I'm going to sign off. Suns game finished and has me tense as shit.

Later.

Hey, it's supposed to be fun! It's a game. It's entertainment. No cause for anxiety.

757 freetoken  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:19:09pm

re: #737 Gus 802

President Obama looks like he'll try Finance Reform next. This could be quite a political victory for him. Since there are Republicans who no doubt believe some sort of changes are necessary, they will be stuck with opposing Obama purely for the act of opposition.

If they do that, and Obama pulls of what looks like a political "victory", Obama will start to look like the Alpha Male of DC.

And since, as was mentioned earlier, Americans like winners, a President Obama on a legislative winning streak would be hard for the GOP to counter.

As for the rest of us... meh. I do agree that more regulation needs to be done, especially on international finance. However, I doubt that the entire financial system can be so fine tuned as to avoid any serious problems in the future.

758 HappyWarrior  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:19:20pm

This is just something I hate about politics. Every time something doesn't go one side's way. It's time for revolution. I once did a research paper on the election of 1800. It was really interesting to learn about since it involved the first peaceful transfer of power between two parties in our country. Maybe these colonial hat wearing people should actually look at what Jefferson and Adams and the others did after the revolution before they claim to be their heirs.

759 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:19:24pm

re: #745 avanti

Scary question from a Hot air poster, do folks really think like this ?

"When is the appropriate time to take up arms against your own country? What line must be crossed before men of action should be expected to take the drastic last step of fighting tyranny in this country and actually take action, violent even though it may require, to protect and defend the Constitution from domestic enemies?

The promisekeepers.org website doesn’t delve into it far enough. It is not enough to refuse to fire on your own fellow citizens. When must you defend your fellow citizens from the tyranny of the majority? Even if it requires violence. If you haven’t thought of this, after the election, if the country doesn’t change direction (like listening to the citizens and enacting legislation according to their preferences), what would have to happen to cause a reasonable man to take up arms against Congress and the Office of the President, and the military folks sworn to protect Washington???

Sorry to hijack the thread, but you guys brought the subject up.

Subsunk"

Yes, people really think that way. I just hope we don't see multiple people who think that way decide to get organized in real life. They'd get crushed, but they might do some serious damage first. And that is something to be avoided if at all possible. Opposing Obama does not require bloodshed, and anyone who thinks it does has something very wrong with them.

760 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:19:36pm

re: #745 avanti

Heh, this guy vs an M1A2...
*Gets popcorn*
*Dark Side Points Gained*

761 Gus  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:19:55pm

re: #747 Racer X

Excellent post - thanks!

What led up to that was a chain reaction of events. The broadening of the CRA; scandal after scandal at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac; and the horrific oversight of both the house and senate finance committee's were borderline criminal.

IMHO.

YW Frontline is great as you know. First time I watched it I found it both compelling and depressing at the same time. The latter being that I remember the final days before the walls fell and seeing Hank Paulson make his announcements. Of course his involvement was as damage control. You can also see Tim Geithner in this presentation while he was president of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. Both of course playing roles as regulatory members. It was a complex series of events and it remain complex.

762 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:20:06pm

re: #756 Silvergirl

Hey, it's supposed to be fun! It's a game. It's entertainment. No cause for anxiety.

Tell that to my dad when it comes to football.
;)

763 avanti  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:20:22pm

re: #751 HappyWarrior

This kinda thought scares me. I am surprised though I didn't see the tired Jefferson quote about blood of tyrants on the liberty tree.

I would think we'd have to have much more serious issues than a heath care bill before something would "happen to cause a reasonable man to take up arms against Congress and the Office of the President, and the military folks sworn to protect Washington???"

764 TheMatrix31  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:21:13pm

re: #756 Silvergirl

Sports arouse MUCH more passion in me than politics do.

765 Gus  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:21:49pm

re: #757 freetoken

President Obama looks like he'll try Finance Reform next. This could be quite a political victory for him. Since there are Republicans who no doubt believe some sort of changes are necessary, they will be stuck with opposing Obama purely for the act of opposition.

If they do that, and Obama pulls of what looks like a political "victory", Obama will start to look like the Alpha Male of DC.

And since, as was mentioned earlier, Americans like winners, a President Obama on a legislative winning streak would be hard for the GOP to counter.

As for the rest of us... meh. I do agree that more regulation needs to be done, especially on international finance. However, I doubt that the entire financial system can be so fine tuned as to avoid any serious problems in the future.

True. Boom and bust cycles will be around for the rest of our lives. I guess the key is to be ready the next time. I'm still behind. It's important to have at least one years salary in liquid (cash) assets.

766 HappyWarrior  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:22:47pm

re: #763 avanti

I would think we'd have to have much more serious issues than a heath care bill before something would "happen to cause a reasonable man to take up arms against Congress and the Office of the President, and the military folks sworn to protect Washington???"

No kidding. I really do sincerely trace a lot of this hate to pure old bitterness that the Democrats finally outsmarted the Republicans in a presidential election and did so without any hint of help from a third party candidate. They can blame ACORN all they want but ACORN isn't a factor in my home county which went Dem for the first time since 64.

767 Silvergirl  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:23:47pm

re: #758 HappyWarrior

This is just something I hate about politics. Every time something doesn't go one side's way. It's time for revolution. I once did a research paper on the election of 1800. It was really interesting to learn about since it involved the first peaceful transfer of power between two parties in our country. Maybe these colonial hat wearing people should actually look at what Jefferson and Adams and the others did after the revolution before they claim to be their heirs.

You mean nobody threatened to leave the country? No going back to England, or other dramatic moves?

768 Gus  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:25:28pm

re: #767 Silvergirl

You mean nobody threatened to leave the country? No going back to England, or other dramatic moves?

No Tweeting! Yeah, by the time you found out the King was dead he had already been dead for two months. Now we find out that he sneezed within 30 seconds.

769 Silvergirl  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:25:40pm

re: #762 Varek Raith

Tell that to my dad when it comes to football.
;)

Oh, I know about these high strung fans.

770 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:26:10pm

re: #760 Varek Raith

Heh, this guy vs an M1A2...
*Gets popcorn*
*Dark Side Points Gained*

Can't you just use your Dark Side powers to pull his head out of his ass?

/

771 bratwurst  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:26:46pm

re: #684 darthstar

Full retard is an understatement...How long can Fox keep this piece of shit on the air?

Hey, I am writing emails to his advertisers as fast as I can!

772 Gus  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:27:10pm

re: #760 Varek Raith

Heh, this guy vs an M1A2...
*Gets popcorn*
*Dark Side Points Gained*

No Munchkins allowed?

/

773 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:27:50pm

re: #770 Dark_Falcon

Can't you just use your Dark Side powers to pull his head out of his ass?

/

Wouldn't that earn me those icky Light Side Points???

774 HappyWarrior  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:28:05pm

Night people.

775 Lidane  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:28:25pm

re: #745 avanti

Scary question from a Hot air poster, do folks really think like this ?

Unfortunately, yes. Some people really do think like that.

IMO, all these wannabe revolutionaries need to grow a pair and get a goddamn spine. Just because a health care bill passed the house by a narrow margin doesn't mean the Republic is falling into total anarchy and that we're doomed or whatever. They need to suck it up already.

Opposition to the party in power is not only normal, but healthy for debate. All these people crying about tea parties and revolution, on the other hand, aren't helping anything, and are idiots to boot. It also doesn't help that carnival barkers like Beck and Limbaugh are stoking their paranoia and ignorance.

776 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:28:30pm

re: #772 Gus 802

No Munchkins allowed?

/

If he was being munchy, he'd fry up the wingnut with Force Lightning.

777 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:29:25pm

re: #773 Varek Raith

Wouldn't that earn me those icky Light Side Points???

Yes, but you can get rid of those by levitating him then banging his head against the floor.

778 freetoken  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:30:35pm

re: #764 TheMatrix31

Sports arouse MUCH more passion in me than politics do.

Well, neither sports or politics do much for me, but house-work can have its charms.

779 Gus  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:33:53pm

re: #778 freetoken

Well, neither sports or politics do much for me, but house-work can have its charms.

Tora! Tora! Tora!

780 swamprat  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:34:00pm

Housing crash was the same as the great depression crash: Buying and selling with no thought as to actual value. The phrase "giddy with greed" leaps to mind.

Goodnight all.

781 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:34:41pm

re: #777 Dark_Falcon

Yes, but you can get rid of those by levitating him then banging his head against the floor.

Heh, my new favorite Dark Side power. I rename it: Force GAZE.

782 keloyd  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:35:43pm

re: #771 bratwurst

Hey, I am writing emails to his advertisers as fast as I can!

They also have Don Imus on Fox Business in the mornings. He is neither conservative nor business oriented. That right there proves to me that Fox isn't so much conservative as it is pro-make-Uncle-Rupert-Money. If Beck crying about how Obama hates white poeple makes money, he does that. If Beck scares away enough sponsors and costs money, he goes away.

When I heard Beck's clip about how Obama hates white people/culture, I took it as "please watch my new show! I will say any damn thing to get attention! Racism or no racism, either way is good for me as long as I'm on television! I promise I will end every sentence with an exclammation point!"

783 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:39:21pm

re: #781 Varek Raith

Heh, my new favorite Dark Side power. I rename it: Force GAZE.

Use it the next time we get a nasty troll. You can grill up a troll just being staring at it.

784 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:40:37pm

re: #783 Dark_Falcon

Use it the next time we get a nasty troll. You can grill up a troll just being staring at it.

Indeed! This will work just a well, methinks

Youtube Video
785 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:44:45pm

re: #784 Varek Raith

Indeed! This will work just a well, methinks

[Video]

Very cool. And now I have to get to bed. Goodnight, all.

786 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:45:20pm

G'nite DF

787 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:45:28pm

re: #785 Dark_Falcon

Very cool. And now I have to get to bed. Goodnight, all.

Night!

788 Varek Raith  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:46:52pm

Later everybody!

789 freetoken  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:47:28pm

re: #785 Dark_Falcon

re: #788 Varek Raith

Sleep well.

790 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:52:46pm

G'night folks.

May we all survive the apocalypse.

/

791 Gus  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:54:13pm

Heading out. Later folks.

792 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:57:59pm

So have we finally exhausted "healthpocalypse" as a topic now?

Funny that One talking point I have heard gathering speed today is that about 24 million "americans" (small "a" intentional) still will not be covered under this bill. Of course what they don't tell you is that the majority of them are illegal aliens, not citizens.

After fighting tooth and nail to be absolutely sure in explicit language that there would be absolutely no coverage for "aliens" in the bill they now have the balls to complain that Congress did not provide "universal coverage"?

/Oy Vey, now that is chutzpah!

793 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 11:03:08pm

re: #764 TheMatrix31

Sports arouse MUCH more passion in me than politics do.

I would say my passions in order are:

Art
Music
Politics (depending on the issue, health care yes, foreign policy no)
Cars
Beer
Gaming

794 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 11:06:05pm

re: #753 keloyd

WUB and Matrix -
Yall play nice! Of all the lizards here who do not bow to my genius and brilliant Machiavellian political wisdom, and humility :P , WUB disagrees more agreeably and articulately than most.

It is unbelievably, psychotically, breathtakingly right to point out that Democrats including, but not limited to Barney Frank played a big role in giving banks a very unhealthy set of incentives to lend to people of inadequate ability to pay.

OTOH, I have no distinct memory of W having a role in this. He burned up so much political capital on the wars and social security reform, that I don't remember him doing much of anything about Freddy and Fannie. I would blame Bush for being too politically weakened to fix the thing a few years before it imploded.


I don't believe this is true. At all.

Here is what I believe (backed up by economists)

Housing bubble, bad home loans, bad home equity loans, bad paper all around. Deregulation of lending istitutions. Consolidation of lending institutions. Credit default swap market traing around mortgage loans as if they're playing cars so nobody has any idea what was worth what.

Bubble bursts, everyone realizes that they're in too deep on their homes, using them as ATMS, getting loans that they're underwater on, economy is predicated on a good housing market, that crashes, it all crashes. crash crash crash.

Putting it on F&F is ridiculous and ignorant.

795 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 11:11:47pm

re: #753 keloyd

WUB and Matrix -
Yall play nice! Of all the lizards here who do not bow to my genius and brilliant Machiavellian political wisdom, and humility :P , WUB disagrees more agreeably and articulately than most.

It is unbelievably, psychotically, breathtakingly right to point out that Democrats including, but not limited to Barney Frank played a big role in giving banks a very unhealthy set of incentives to lend to people of inadequate ability to pay.

OTOH, I have no distinct memory of W having a role in this. He burned up so much political capital on the wars and social security reform, that I don't remember him doing much of anything about Freddy and Fannie. I would blame Bush for being too politically weakened to fix the thing a few years before it imploded.

If you really want to know what caused the crisis, it's the fetishization of home ownership for people who could not own homes, and the mumbo jumbo loans given to them when they could not repay if the value of their home did not rise faster than the resets on their ARMS.

Blaming this on Fannie and Freddie is like blaming the car for the driver's error.

796 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Mon, Mar 22, 2010 11:24:23pm

re: #794 WindUpBird

I don't believe this is true. At all.

Here is what I believe (backed up by economists)

Housing bubble, bad home loans, bad home equity loans, bad paper all around. Deregulation of lending istitutions. Consolidation of lending institutions. Credit default swap market traing around mortgage loans as if they're playing cars so nobody has any idea what was worth what.

Bubble bursts, everyone realizes that they're in too deep on their homes, using them as ATMS, getting loans that they're underwater on, economy is predicated on a good housing market, that crashes, it all crashes. crash crash crash.

Putting it on F&F is ridiculous and ignorant.

A very sloppy synopsis but not too far from the mark, Fannie and Freddy were late to the housing bubble table because early on their regulations prohibited them from joining in on the feeding frenzy. Congress obligingly removed those restrictions when both they themselves and the real estate lobbyists campaigned for the removal of the loan limitations.

What started out as mainly a completely privately financed bubble ended up at the end being almost 40% financed by fanny/freddie guaranteed loans. Now it is convenient just to blame the entire thing on them since they did after all start guaranteeing the riskier loans once Congress allowed them to do so.

Still the loss that fanny and freddie incurred is so pathetically small when compared to say the default swap market at AIG that it is simply ludicrous to attempt the economic downturn on them.

797 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 1:08:35am

re: #796 ausador

A very sloppy synopsis but not too far from the mark, Fannie and Freddy were late to the housing bubble table because early on their regulations prohibited them from joining in on the feeding frenzy. Congress obligingly removed those restrictions when both they themselves and the real estate lobbyists campaigned for the removal of the loan limitations.

What started out as mainly a completely privately financed bubble ended up at the end being almost 40% financed by fanny/freddie guaranteed loans. Now it is convenient just to blame the entire thing on them since they did after all start guaranteeing the riskier loans once Congress allowed them to do so.

Still the loss that fanny and freddie incurred is so pathetically small when compared to say the default swap market at AIG that it is simply ludicrous to attempt the economic downturn on them.

Quite sloppy! I'm no economist, just tossing out the cliff's notes :D never trust a stoner artist to do an economist's job!

798 Sacred Plants  Wed, Mar 24, 2010 3:35:57pm

If that is really what you believe then I have got some nice Greek islands to sell to you.

/


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