Pundits Who Were Wrong, Starring Fred Barnes

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Fred Barnes in January 2010: The Health Care Bill Is Dead | The Weekly Standard.

The health care bill, ObamaCare, is dead with not the slightest prospect of resurrection. Brown ran to be the 41st vote for filibuster and now he is just that. Democrats have talked up clever strategies to pass the bill in the Senate despite Brown, but they won’t fly.

Oops.

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351 comments
1 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:05:27am

The wrongest pundit in America to date remains Shelby Steele, however.

2 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:05:35am

Clever strategies, like "voting"?

I wonder why they didn't think of that before.

3 theheat  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:05:41am

Never happened.
//

4 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:06:04am

Barnes is certainly no Jean Dixon. Wait, what?
/

5 Truth Stick  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:09:30am

Pundits who were wrong???....that could be a long list

6 Soap_Man  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:12:45am

A lot of people F'ed that up.

7 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:18:08am

The reconciliation bill still has to work its way through the Senate, and it must pass word for word or else that particular bill is dead in the water. A major hurdle was overcome when one provision was deemed to be budget related, and therefore eligible for reconciliation. There are still more procedural steps before the measure comes up for the Senate vote, but it will have the votes to pass if it does.

8 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:25:20am

My favorite wrong pundit is Francis "History Is Over" Fukuyama.

9 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:26:55am

re: #8 Cato the Elder

My favorite wrong pundit is Francis "History Is Over" Fukuyama.

Tokyo Rose! She was totally off-target

10 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:28:16am

re: #9 HoosierHoops

Tokyo Rose! She was totally off-target

How about Baghdad Bob?

11 badger1970  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:28:17am

Can't fault him for wishful thinking.

12 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:30:20am

re: #8 Cato the Elder

Has Bill Kristol ever been right about anything?

13 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:31:22am

re: #9 HoosierHoops

re: #10 Mad Al-Jaffee

They bombed.

14 Truth Stick  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:31:25am

re: #12 Obdicut

Has Bill Kristol ever been right about anything?

He thought he was once, but he was mistaken :)

15 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:31:59am

re: #8 Cato the Elder

I believe he recanted.

16 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:32:18am

re: #10 Mad Al-Jaffee

How about Baghdad Bob?

[Link: politicalhumor.about.com...]

17 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:33:09am

re: #12 Obdicut

Has Bill Kristol ever been right about anything?

Or Keith Olbermann?

18 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:33:34am

My second-favorite wrong pundit is Tom "Flat Earth" Friedman.

19 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:33:44am

re: #17 Mad Al-Jaffee

Olby was right on Prop 8.

20 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:34:40am

the dems call the scheme deficit neutral, then turn around and tell us there will be $570b in new taxes over ten years, and up to $3 in new spending to pay for it...who pays for that?...someone is gonna get soaked but good...it's a massive redistribution of wealth and a monumental federal power grab...too bad it has to be this way...an d I dare say nobody knows exactly what will happen with delivery or quality of care across the board....liberals are smug now, but it's still not known how this will effect the economy...taking the money from upper income brackets seems like a poor solution....we won!

21 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:34:50am

Has Rushbo shuffled off to Costa Rica yet?

22 KingKenrod  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:34:53am

Fred "Rebel in Chief" Barnes is usually wrong. If this blog is going to start gloating about it, we're going to need a bigger internet.

23 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:35:50am

re: #17 Mad Al-Jaffee

Yes. Olberman's been right on quite a few things. He's generally presented those opinions in an ass-tastic way, and I seriously doubt he does his own thinking-- I think his positions and ideas are not his original inventions, though his language is. As opposed to someone like Maddow, who I genuinely believe to be both the voice and the brain behind her message.

24 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:36:03am

re: #22 KingKenrod

it's not an internet - it's a series of tubes.

25 theheat  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:36:22am

re: #21 eclectic infidel

He needs to get his blue pills prescription refilled before he goes. Never leave home without 'em.

26 palomino  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:37:08am

Don't forget Hugh Hewitt, the radio version of Fred Barnes. This book came out in mid-2006, just before Dems regained control of Congress.

27 palomino  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:38:58am

re: #20 albusteve

Like Cheney said, "Deficits don't matter."

28 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:39:03am

re: #23 Obdicut

I essentially agree - although his personalisation of the Health CAre debate about his father was all him. Too much of his show otherwise is ripped from Crooks&Liars, MediaMatters or Kos.

He's a good rabble rouser for the left - but Maddow is by far his superior in anything "news" related.

29 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:41:36am

BBL

30 darthstar  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:41:44am

Fred Barnes was just expressing wishful thinking. Pundits, like TV anchors, get paid for bringing eyes to the TV/Magazine/Blog. If there's no crisis, or conflict, people tend to do other things with their time--play with their children, mow the lawn...dear god, they might even pick up a book and read. Give them a contested nail-biter, and you can keep your audience waiting for your next words of wisdom.

31 theheat  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:41:47am

re: #28 wozzablog

Agree on Maddow - her delivery doesn't bother me. Olbermann is way too far gone, and has been for quite some time.

32 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:42:17am

Good Morning and Happy Tuesday to you all! I hope everyone is well this lovely day?

33 avanti  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:42:51am

"NEW YORK – On the heels of health care, a new Harris poll reveals Republican attitudes about Obama: Two-thirds think he's a socialist, 57 percent a Muslim—and 24 percent say "he may be the Antichrist."


Harris poll.

34 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:44:08am

re: #32 Dragon_Lady

Good Morning and Happy Tuesday to you all! I hope everyone is well this lovely day?

I can't complain (but, like Joe Walsh said, sometimes I still do.)

35 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:44:27am

Hey Jadespring I posted a reply to your "Redneck" story on the other thread you might want to read. :-)

36 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:44:41am

From the right - insurance premiums are surely going to rise with a whole host of new requirements to provide coverages.

From the left - insurance premiums are going to rise for those who have insurance and this does nothing to bend the costs of health care.

In fact, it seems to be an agreement that this bill will actually make it more expensive for the middle class -most of whom already have insurance through their employers.

The bill will impose a financial hardship on middle class Americans who will be forced to buy a product that they can’t afford to use.

A family of four making $66,370 will be forced to pay $5,243 per year for insurance. After basic necessities, this leaves them with $8,307 in discretionary income — out of which they would have to cover clothing, credit card and other debt, child care and education costs, in addition to $5,882 in annual out-of-pocket medical expenses for which families will be responsible.

And all the aforementioned doesn't even begin to touch on the actual costs for the government on this massive tax and spend program.

37 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:44:47am

re: #27 palomino

Like Cheney said, "Deficits don't matter."

who cares what Cheney said

38 darthstar  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:45:29am

re: #31 theheat

Agree on Maddow - her delivery doesn't bother me. Olbermann is way too far gone, and has been for quite some time.

Maddow is fresh, articulate, and smiles as she decimates Republicans. Keith got into a pissing match with Bill O'Reilly that lasted a few years and as such has taken on a little bit of the 'outrageous outrage' that takes away the impact of what he reports. Rachel simply lays it out there and says, "Sounds like hypocrisy to me...what do you think?" That's why Republicans are afraid to appear on her show.

39 palomino  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:46:31am

re: #33 avanti

"NEW YORK – On the heels of health care, a new Harris poll reveals Republican attitudes about Obama: Two-thirds think he's a socialist, 57 percent a Muslim—and 24 percent say "he may be the Antichrist."

Harris poll.

But it's Obama's fault that the country is polarized? Bullshit. There's nothing more he could have done in the face of such extreme denial and stupidity to usher in bipartisanship.

40 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:47:00am

re: #38 darthstar

Ben Affleck did a hilarious Ollberman impersonation on SNL a couple of years ago. You can probably find it on hulu.

41 darthstar  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:47:56am

re: #33 avanti

"NEW YORK – On the heels of health care, a new Harris poll reveals Republican attitudes about Obama: Two-thirds think he's a socialist, 57 percent a Muslim—and 24 percent say "he may be the Antichrist."

Harris poll.

57 per cent still think he's a Muslim? I really think they need to do an anonymous poll of the Republicans in congress and the Senate. It would be interesting to see how many of our elected officials are that ignorant...

42 darthstar  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:48:18am

re: #40 Mad Al-Jaffee

Ben Affleck did a hilarious Ollberman impersonation on SNL a couple of years ago. You can probably find it on hulu.

Saw it...Keith played the whole thing on his show.

43 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:48:24am

re: #40 Mad Al-Jaffee

Ben Affleck did a hilarious Ollberman impersonation on SNL a couple of years ago. You can probably find it on hulu.

That was awesome. I think Olberman even gave it a thumbs up.

44 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:48:43am

A lot of pundits were wrong about the bill going through, but somehow I don't think its going anywhere because the lawsuits are flying as we post. Most likely the bill will be bogged down in court and become a stagnate pool of litigation.

45 theheat  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:51:43am

re: #38 darthstar

Basically, what Maddow has over many people in the broadcasting/opinion niche is she comes across as 1.) reasonable, and 2.) genuinely likable. The fact she also converses intelligently is icing on the cake. Whether left or right wing, these are traits her competitors should embrace.

46 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:51:55am

re: #44 Dragon_Lady

A lot of pundits were wrong about the bill going through, but somehow I don't think its going anywhere because the lawsuits are flying as we post. Most likely the bill will be bogged down in court and become a stagnate pool of litigation.

Florida's AG will file suit the minute the bill is signed.

47 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:52:02am

re: #36 lawhawk

In fact, it seems to be an agreement that this bill will actually make it more expensive for the middle class -most of whom already have insurance through their employers.

An agreement by whom, please?

Why do you claim it will make things more expensive, when one of the sources you cite is arguing that it will merely keep prices roughly the same?

This is pulled from your second link. The first price is the Status Quo, the second one is after HCR-- according to that source only.:

Small group market, single: $7,800 / $7,800

Small group market, family: $19,300 / $19,200

Large Group market, single: $7,400 / $7,300

Large group market, family: $21,100 / $21,300

Individual market, single: $5,500 / $5,800*

Individual market, family: $13,100 / $15,200*


Can you explain where you're getting the concept of agreement on the concept of making health insurance more burdensome on the middle class while citing a link that shows health insurance premiums staying the same?

Oh, and Colbert just checked off the "Massive tax and spend program" on his GOP talking point bingo card.

48 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:53:23am

re: #36 lawhawk

From the right - insurance premiums are surely going to rise with a whole host of new requirements to provide coverages.

From the left - insurance premiums are going to rise for those who have insurance and this does nothing to bend the costs of health care.

In fact, it seems to be an agreement that this bill will actually make it more expensive for the middle class -most of whom already have insurance through their employers.

And all the aforementioned doesn't even begin to touch on the actual costs for the government on this massive tax and spend program.

or consider that every tax seems to increase with new proposals daily...how much on the dollar does the middle class pay...50cents?...and with state budgets in crisis, services are going to suffer as business dies and people flee...goes on and on....you'd have to be some kind of crackpot to be pleased with the situation in this country...socialists are rockin

49 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:53:43am

re: #46 Cannadian Club Akbar

I hear from the news the paper work has been filled out and the instant the bill is signed the papers will be hitting the clerks desk. I don't think the ink will even be dry!

50 darthstar  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:54:08am

re: #21 eclectic infidel

Has Rushbo shuffled off to Costa Rica yet?

There's a group raising money for a ticket. Apparently, they have 62,000 donations so far. All the money they raise will go to the Planned Parenthood Action Center.

51 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:54:26am

re: #39 palomino

But it's Obama's fault that the country is polarized? Bullshit. There's nothing more he could have done in the face of such extreme denial and stupidity to usher in bipartisanship.

was there are poll about that too?

52 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:54:27am

re: #44 Dragon_Lady

That's not really how it works. It would be very unlikely for a judge to issue any kind of stay on the law while lawsuits are being decided.

53 theheat  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:54:54am

re: #46 Cannadian Club Akbar

There are a lot of those threats going around. HCR is the secessionists' wet dream.

54 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:55:22am

re: #44 Dragon_Lady

A lot of pundits were wrong about the bill going through, but somehow I don't think its going anywhere because the lawsuits are flying as we post. Most likely the bill will be bogged down in court and become a stagnate pool of litigation.

at least it will be good bill for the lawyers

55 palomino  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:56:01am

re: #37 albusteve

who cares what Cheney said

For 8 years as he "advised" Bush, we kinda had to care what he said. "wah wah."

56 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:56:10am

re: #52 Obdicut

That's not really how it works. It would be very unlikely for a judge to issue any kind of stay on the law while lawsuits are being decided.

Somebody had better tell the news stations then because it was reported on channel CBS 2 this morning.

57 darthstar  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:57:06am

re: #44 Dragon_Lady

A lot of pundits were wrong about the bill going through, but somehow I don't think its going anywhere because the lawsuits are flying as we post. Most likely the bill will be bogged down in court and become a stagnate pool of litigation.

The lawsuits won't stop the initial benefits. The states will sue over mandates, etc. but the bill has severability which means the entire bill can't be thrown out or stalled. Insurance regulation is here to stay.

58 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:57:21am

re: #56 Dragon_Lady

Somebody better tell the news stations a lot of things.

59 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:57:26am

re: #35 Dragon_Lady

Hey Jadespring I posted a reply to your "Redneck" story on the other thread you might want to read. :-)

Read it and replied.

60 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:57:45am

re: #54 albusteve

at least it will be good bill for the lawyers

Oh yes, just what we need more of our tax money in the pockets of the lawyers, as if they don't get their hand on enough of our tax dollars./

61 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:57:51am

re: #47 Obdicut

Are you kidding me? Where exactly is the cost containment in this bill coming from? There isn't any cost containment and if you already have insurance, what do you think is going to happen when insurance companies are mandated to carry individuals until they're 26 - extending the family coverage for additional years - that will necessarily increase across the board.

The same goes to spreading out the risks of carrying individuals who are now subject to recission and or are denied coverage? The insurance companies aren't going to do this out of the goodness of their corporate hearts of darkness. They're going to raise premiums for everyone to cover those additional costs.

Meanwhile what do you think this is:
Large group market, family: $21,100 / $21,300

Individual market, single: $5,500 / $5,800*

Individual market, family: $13,100 / $15,200*

Those are costs that are going to rise. Or do you ignore that part. There's quite a bit of consensus that the costs are going to rise. How can they not when you increase all manner of burdens on the insurance companies. In fact, I think the firedoglake figures seriously underestimate the costs that will rise because health care costs have outstripped other cost increases by a wide margin (exceeded only by higher education costs).

62 Cato the Elder  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:58:16am

re: #55 palomino

For 8 years as he "advised" Buch pulled Howdy-Doody's puppet strings, we kinda had to care what he said. "wah wah."

FTFY

63 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:58:28am

re: #55 palomino

For 8 years as he "advised" Bush, we kinda had to care what he said. "wah wah."

wah wah I didn't and still don't...you got a mouse in your pocket?...Cheney is history, time to move ahead

64 seasoned  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:58:35am

I am a doctoral student in health care. I am a nurse practitioner and have been in health care since 1974. Don't know much about politics however. Would like/need a response to the following. Thanks!

Provided the bill passes the Senate, how soon will the following take effect?
1) Extended health insurance (under parents' coverage) until age 26?
2) Elimination of 3rd party payer "preexisting conditions" clause?

I am reading/hearing that it is a "given" that the bill will pass in the Senate. Who/what are the main obstacles there?

65 palomino  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:58:54am

re: #51 albusteve

was there are poll about that too?

not a poll, it's the theme of nearly every right-wing pundits' books, articles, rants, screeds, whatever.

66 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:59:28am

Yeah, but O'Reilly has changed a bit. He's throwing far fewer bombs these days and settling into the "flagship show host" role.

67 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:59:39am

re: #52 Obdicut

That's not really how it works. It would be very unlikely for a judge to issue any kind of stay on the law while lawsuits are being decided.

I don't see a legal argument stopping the Bill...I only see political solutions to the long range prospects of Healthcare..
Too bad this wasn't passed years ago...Then maybe my Dad wouldn't be almost bankrupt because mom died of Cancer...He is on the edge to keep the House in Yountville....

68 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:59:43am

re: #64 seasoned

Both of those items would appear to take effect in 2010 upon passage of the reconciliation package.

69 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 7:59:48am
70 darthstar  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:00:25am

re: #63 albusteve

wah wah I didn't and still don't...you got a mouse in your pocket?...Cheney is history, time to move ahead

Cheney still has to answer for his crimes. So does Osama bin Laden. Get it?

71 palomino  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:01:12am

re: #44 Dragon_Lady

A lot of pundits were wrong about the bill going through, but somehow I don't think its going anywhere because the lawsuits are flying as we post. Most likely the bill will be bogged down in court and become a stagnate pool of litigation.

That's not how things work. STATE AG's can file lawsuits, but they don't prevent FEDERAL law from taking effect.

72 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:01:17am

re: #58 Obdicut

Somebody better tell the news stations a lot of things.

I wish I could tell them to... um, you get the drift?

73 darthstar  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:01:20am

re: #66 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, but O'Reilly has changed a bit. He's throwing far fewer bombs these days and settling into the "flagship show host" role.

He probably doesn't want to be equated with Glenn Beck.

74 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:01:23am

re: #69 mikeysdca

At the risk of defending pundits, did anyone anticipate that Bart Stupak would tank so shamelessly?

I did.

75 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:01:40am

re: #61 lawhawk

Are you kidding me? Where exactly is the cost containment in this bill coming from? There isn't any cost containment and if you already have insurance, what do you think is going to happen when insurance companies are mandated to carry individuals until they're 26 - extending the family coverage for additional years - that will necessarily increase across the board.

The same goes to spreading out the risks of carrying individuals who are now subject to recission and or are denied coverage? The insurance companies aren't going to do this out of the goodness of their corporate hearts of darkness. They're going to raise premiums for everyone to cover those additional costs.

Meanwhile what do you think this is:
Large group market, family: $21,100 / $21,300

Individual market, single: $5,500 / $5,800*

Individual market, family: $13,100 / $15,200*

Those are costs that are going to rise. Or do you ignore that part. There's quite a bit of consensus that the costs are going to rise. How can they not when you increase all manner of burdens on the insurance companies. In fact, I think the firedoglake figures seriously underestimate the costs that will rise because health care costs have outstripped other cost increases by a wide margin (exceeded only by higher education costs).

Agreed. The insurance companies are not simply going to hand over their money to treat people with pre-existing conditions. They're going to try as hard as they can to make that money back.

76 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:02:24am

re: #50 darthstar

There's a group raising money for a ticket. Apparently, they have 62,000 donations so far. All the money they raise will go to the Planned Parenthood Action Center.

That's rockin'. And it's going on my FB page.

77 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:03:43am

re: #70 darthstar

Cheney still has to answer for his crimes. So does Osama bin Laden. Get it?

not interested in "Cheney's crimes"...if you are post about it

78 Political Atheist  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:04:02am

re: #71 palomino

It's not that cut and dry. Remember 55mph? Not a Federal law, but a demand upon the states to pass the law or else. Hence it was a set of 50 state laws.

79 darthstar  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:04:35am

re: #75 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. The insurance companies are not simply going to hand over their money to treat people with pre-existing conditions. They're going to try as hard as they can to make that money back.

The insurance companies were going to raise rates anyway--and they have been doing just that this last year. Anyone saying that rate increases are due to this bill is full of shit (no offense intended, LH). And now they're going to get 31 million new customers. They're happy as shit that this legislation passed. It won't hurt them in the slightest.

80 [deleted]  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:04:43am
81 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:04:51am

re: #61 lawhawk

Meanwhile what do you think this is:
Large group market, family: $21,100 / $21,300

Individual market, single: $5,500 / $5,800*

Individual market, family: $13,100 / $15,200*

Only one of those is related to employer-related insurance, the first one. Since your claim was about the middle classes' employer-provided health insurance, wouldn't it be more honest of you to look at say, the employee-provided health insurance numbers?

There's quite a bit of consensus that the costs are going to rise. How can they not when you increase all manner of burdens on the insurance companies.

Burdens like sick people?

Health insurance premiums have risen by gigantic leaps and bounds over the past twenty years. If this bill even slows that rate of raise it'll be a damn good thing. But yes, the bill is highly imperfect. What is more imperfect was the status quo beforehand.

Did you ever figure out the cost of not passing the bill?

82 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:05:37am

re: #73 darthstar

He probably doesn't want to be equated with Glenn Beck.

I think that's much of it. It's also that Beck is younger and frankly, he's much more of a screamer than O'Reilly ever was. With Beck taking over the attacker role, O'Reilly can change into someone who is more moderate in tone (if not in policy preferences), which lets him increase his ratings by broadening his viewership. Remember: Beck may get the attention from the blogs, but Bill O'Reilly's show is still the most watch cable news show by a long margin.

83 palomino  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:06:10am

re: #63 albusteve

wah wah I didn't and still don't...you got a mouse in your pocket?...Cheney is history, time to move ahead

Yeah, that was a whole year ago. Let's just forget it completely. wtf?

As long as Cheney and his daughter/spokesperson blather on about "al Qaeda 7" and other smears, it's hard to just move on.

84 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:06:27am

re: #81 Obdicut

The cost would be less than what this bill proposes - namely because there wouldn't be several hundred billion in new taxes and fees imposed on everyone to make this thing happen.

85 Nanook37  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:06:29am

As Jon Stewart said on O'Reilly's show - O'Reilly is the voice of sanity on Fox News Channel, although that's like being the thinnest kid at fat camp.

re: #66 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, but O'Reilly has changed a bit. He's throwing far fewer bombs these days and settling into the "flagship show host" role.

86 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:06:42am

Does anyone know how the "buy into the government health care plan or pay a tax penalty" will work? Quit frankly that part has me a bit worried... I'm on unemployment and paying bills, rent, groceries takes plenty out of our pockets without having to pay a tax for not having to pay for government health care or a new tax. I'd sure love to know more about that part of the bill!

87 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:07:01am

re: #72 Dragon_Lady

I wish I could tell them to... um, you get the drift?

To bring this full Circle..ESPN is interviewing Quincy Pondexter Senior Foward from Washington..
He is dancing in the College play of the Nut cracker... Funnier than hell how scared that Athlete is of dancing in from of everybody..

88 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:07:23am

re: #78 Rightwingconspirator

It's not that cut and dry. Remember 55mph? Not a Federal law, but a demand upon the states to pass the law or else. Hence it was a set of 50 state laws.

out in the NM table lands...at 80mph it doesn't even seem like you're moving!

89 darthstar  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:08:28am

re: #86 Dragon_Lady

Does anyone know how the "buy into the government health care plan or pay a tax penalty" will work? Quit frankly that part has me a bit worried... I'm on unemployment and paying bills, rent, groceries takes plenty out of our pockets without having to pay a tax for not having to pay for government health care or a new tax. I'd sure love to know more about that part of the bill!

That part of the legislation doesn't kick in until 2014...four years from now. I believe the intent is to reconcile that bit out of the bill before it takes effect.

90 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:08:39am

re: #81 Obdicut

The rate of health care costs isn't going to slow - let alone stop because of this bill. It will accelerate because there's nothing in this proposal that will contain costs and nothing in the bill that limits the increases. The increased mandates on insurers to provide coverage means that premiums will necessarily have to increase.

91 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:09:14am

re: #83 palomino

Yeah, that was a whole year ago. Let's just forget it completely. wtf?

As long as Cheney and his daughter/spokesperson blather on about "al Qaeda 7" and other smears, it's hard to just move on.

I'm not interested

92 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:09:53am

re: #89 darthstar

That part of the legislation doesn't kick in until 2014...four years from now. I believe the intent is to reconcile that bit out of the bill before it takes effect.

Well I don't mind admitting that part of the bill scares me a bit... I hope by then (2014) I'll have a job!

93 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:10:08am

re: #84 lawhawk

The cost would be less than what this bill proposes - namely because there wouldn't be several hundred billion in new taxes and fees imposed on everyone to make this thing happen.

That's not really how 'cost' works, you know, in terms of government budgets and bills. Taxes pay for things-- they defray costs.

How much did the uninsured cost-- and please include costs like higher insurance rates and subsidization of hospitals-- the American public before the passage of this bill? How much was the opportunity cost of people like Hoops' dad being on the brink of losing his house, instead of having that equity to invest?

94 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:10:14am

re: #89 darthstar

The reconciliation will adjust the amounts of the pay or penalty provisions downwards, but it will not eliminate the penalties for opting not to buy the insurance.

95 Lateralis  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:11:10am

re: #90 lawhawk

The rate of health care costs isn't going to slow - let alone stop because of this bill. It will accelerate because there's nothing in this proposal that will contain costs and nothing in the bill that limits the increases. The increased mandates on insurers to provide coverage means that premiums will necessarily have to increase.

The government is going to also add mandates concerning what has to be covered by insurance giving less flexibility to private insurance companies to design benefit plans that are affordable.

96 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:11:28am

re: #90 lawhawk

So instead of paying higher premiums to cover the uninsured because the hospitals overcharge the insurers to make up for their losses on the uninsured, we'll pay higher premiums because the uninsured are no longer uninsured?

97 garhighway  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:12:13am

re: #91 albusteve

I'm not interested

I don't blame you.

98 badger1970  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:12:13am

re: #90 lawhawk

Will the premiums increase so much for the people who have pre-existing conditions that it will be cheaper to not have insurance than to pay everything out of pocket?

99 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:13:25am

re: #87 HoosierHoops

To bring this full Circle..ESPN is interviewing Quincy Pondexter Senior Foward from Washington..
He is dancing in the College play of the Nut cracker... Funnier than hell how scared that Athlete is of dancing in from of everybody..

Heck, when he played as a Linebacker for the Bears, Mike Singletary took ballet lessons. It's good for flexibility and coordination, qualities athletes need.

100 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:13:26am

re: #90 lawhawk

The rate of health care costs isn't going to slow - let alone stop because of this bill. It will accelerate because there's nothing in this proposal that will contain costs and nothing in the bill that limits the increases. The increased mandates on insurers to provide coverage means that premiums will necessarily have to increase.

You are correct. This bill does two thing, generate revenue and offers various level of health care through various methods and programs. No where does it put any constraints on cost or contains any language that will lead to cost containment.

101 palomino  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:14:01am

re: #78 Rightwingconspirator

It's not that cut and dry. Remember 55mph? Not a Federal law, but a demand upon the states to pass the law or else. Hence it was a set of 50 state laws.

OK, but how does that support the gop wishful thinking that state AG's lawsuits can prevent this federal law from taking effect? What you're seeing is desperation after a loss; future repeal and judicial invalidation (ironically) are now the rallying cry of those on the losing end, as current legislative recourse is gone.

As for 55, it went into effect in the 70s and was the speed limit everywhere until the law was repealed in the 80s, at which point states set their own limits. Again, how is this germane to impeding HCR?

102 darthstar  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:14:11am

re: #92 Dragon_Lady

Well I don't mind admitting that part of the bill scares me a bit... I hope by then (2014) I'll have a job!

So do I. :)

103 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:14:30am

re: #99 Dark_Falcon

Heck, when he played as a Linebacker for the Bears, Mike Singletary took ballet lessons. It's good for flexibility and coordination, qualities athletes need.

Yes..We were all talking about Yoga and Aikido down stairs...
Hi DF!

104 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:15:01am

re: #95 Lateralis

The government is going to also add mandates concerning what has to be covered by insurance giving less flexibility to private insurance companies to design benefit plans that are affordable.

That's something that can be addressed. David Frum is right: The GOP should accept what has happened and focus on fixing the legislation's problems.

105 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:15:25am

re: #98 badger1970

I doubt that it would be the case since the costs would be spread among the entire risk pool.

106 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:15:35am

re: #99 Dark_Falcon

Heck, when he played as a Linebacker for the Bears, Mike Singletary took ballet lessons. It's good for flexibility and coordination, qualities athletes need.

WHAT!....BLASPHEMY!
he did tho, it's true

107 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:16:06am

re: #103 HoosierHoops

Yes..We were all talking about Yoga and Aikido down stairs...
Hi DF!

Hi, Hoops. How goes the NCAA Basketball scene?

108 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:16:30am

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

There are a lot of things in that article I agree heartily with. Some I disagree with, but he's provided the GOP an excellent way to move forwards, provide leadership, and actually legislate in a meaningful and constructive way.

I sincerely hope they do so, champion good fixes to the bill, and run on that platform.

109 palomino  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:16:40am

re: #91 albusteve

I'm not interested

then you don't count.

110 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:17:30am

re: #79 darthstar

The insurance companies were going to raise rates anyway--and they have been doing just that this last year. Anyone saying that rate increases are due to this bill is full of shit (no offense intended, LH). And now they're going to get 31 million new customers. They're happy as shit that this legislation passed. It won't hurt them in the slightest.

"If you're not at the table, you're on the menu." They read the tea leaves, knew that this was coming no matter what, and therefore lobbied to protect themselves.

Obama and Pelosi weren't the only ones up there twisting arms...

111 Virginia Plain  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:17:37am

re: #108 Obdicut

I sincerely hope they do so, champion good fixes to the bill, and run on that platform.

Nope, not going to happen.

112 darthstar  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:17:44am

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

That's something that can be addressed. David Frum is right: The GOP should accept what has happened and focus on fixing the legislation's problems.

Yes, but they want to try doing the same thing one more time (maybe two) to see if they can get a different result. SOCIALISM! DEATH PANELS! FEAR! COOTIES!

113 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:17:52am

re: #109 palomino

then you don't count.

with who?...you?
yawn

114 darthstar  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:18:17am

time for work...bbl

115 garhighway  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:18:22am

re: #101 palomino

OK, but how does that support the gop wishful thinking that state AG's lawsuits can prevent this federal law from taking effect? What you're seeing is desperation after a loss; future repeal and judicial invalidation (ironically) are now the rallying cry of those on the losing end, as current legislative recourse is gone.

As for 55, it went into effect in the 70s and was the speed limit everywhere until the law was repealed in the 80s, at which point states set their own limits. Again, how is this germane to impeding HCR?

It isn't. State AG's are playing to the yahoos in the peanut gallery. They know that they have zero chance of stopping or even slowing down HCR.

Remember what "AG" stands for: Aspiring Governor. It's all about getting ink. They count on the fact that no one will remember how much money they blew on a futile lawsuit that they knew was doomed to fail.

116 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:18:36am

re: #86 Dragon_Lady

Does anyone know how the "buy into the government health care plan or pay a tax penalty" will work? Quit frankly that part has me a bit worried... I'm on unemployment and paying bills, rent, groceries takes plenty out of our pockets without having to pay a tax for not having to pay for government health care or a new tax. I'd sure love to know more about that part of the bill!

Now that it's passed, maybe we'll learn what's in it.
/to sarc, or not to sarc?

117 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:18:50am

And now, some actually interesting work beckons me. Have a good day, LGFers.

Hoops, sorry to hear about your dad, nobody should ever have to be in that position.

118 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:18:53am

re: #108 Obdicut

There are a lot of things in that article I agree heartily with. Some I disagree with, but he's provided the GOP an excellent way to move forwards, provide leadership, and actually legislate in a meaningful and constructive way.

I sincerely hope they do so, champion good fixes to the bill, and run on that platform.

I would certainly hope so too, but I'm afraid the partisan line is so set in stone that its just not going to happen. I might be wrong, but as the saying goes, we shall see what we shall see.

119 palomino  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:18:59am

re: #113 albusteve

with who?...you?
yawn

with anyone who does count.
burp, fart

120 theheat  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:19:25am

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

That would require accepting it, first of all. They think they can retroactively defeat it, and that's where they'll direct their energies. That sums up their contribution to reforming health care.

Does this look like the party committed to working through solutions?

121 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:19:38am

re: #116 The Sanity Inspector

Now that it's passed, maybe we'll learn what's in it.
/to sarc, or not to sarc?

I though all bills were gonna be posted for 5 days before being signed?
/

122 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:20:10am

re: #107 Dark_Falcon

Hi, Hoops. How goes the NCAA Basketball scene?

Hi..My brackets are busted.. But I still have the Wildcats in the East, Duke and I have the Orangeman winning the Championship.. I know it's crazy..But 98% of America had Kansas winning...
Because of Karma..I'm not going to get cocky about it..
/Never piss off the Basketball Gods

123 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:21:56am

re: #122 HoosierHoops

Hi..My brackets are busted.. But I still have the Wildcats in the East, Duke and I have the Orangeman winning the Championship.. I know it's crazy..But 98% of America had Kansas winning...
Because of Karma..I'm not going to get cocky about it..
/Never piss off the Basketball Gods

Upding for not pissing off the Basketball Gods! ;)

124 sagehen  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:22:14am

re: #75 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. The insurance companies are not simply going to hand over their money to treat people with pre-existing conditions. They're going to try as hard as they can to make that money back.

Sure they are, but the bill also requires that they spend 80% of their revenue on actual medical care (currently they only spend about 70%), and the mandate is going to mean a lot of new policyholders who are too young and healthy to be making a lot of claims. That should be enough money to treat the non-recissionable and non-deniable.

It also means, now that insurance companies will be stuck with all these people, AHIP finally has the motivation to put their muscle behind things like universal vaccination, the Mayo team-treatment paradigm, the infection control checklist, and other honest-to-god cost-cutting measures. (they didn't much care when those costs fell on someone other than them).

125 palomino  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:22:17am

re: #115 garhighway

I agree, it's probably frivolous. But, at this point, it's the only hope republicans have. Control of both houses of Congress and the WH is, at best, almost three years away. And by that point, assuming HCR has popular elements, repeal won't be easy.

126 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:23:10am

re: #115 garhighway

It isn't. State AG's are playing to the yahoos in the peanut gallery. They know that they have zero chance of stopping or even slowing down HCR.

Remember what "AG" stands for: Aspiring Governor. It's all about getting ink. They count on the fact that no one will remember how much money they blew on a futile lawsuit that they knew was doomed to fail.

Champions of the People!
(I fought hard for the citizens of this state...etc)

127 Lateralis  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:23:39am

re: #115 garhighway

It isn't. State AG's are playing to the yahoos in the peanut gallery. They know that they have zero chance of stopping or even slowing down HCR.

Remember what "AG" stands for: Aspiring Governor. It's all about getting ink. They count on the fact that no one will remember how much money they blew on a futile lawsuit that they knew was doomed to fail.

They actually are defending States rights. You are kidding yourself if you don't think there are serious constitutional questions requiring individuals to purchase health insurance.

128 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:23:53am

I wonder how many insurance companies are going to go under because of this bill, and how many doctors are going to quit practicing medicine as well?

129 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:23:57am

re: #112 darthstar

Yes, but they want to try doing the same thing one more time (maybe two) to see if they can get a different result. SOCIALISM! DEATH PANELS! FEAR! COOTIES!

That's the very definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and expecting a different result. Well, Frum has shown how to move forwards. A good idea now would be to introduce a bill next year to allow the insurance companies to offer a variety of plans via the exchanges (though the offerings should still be regulated to prevent scams). That's a sensible reform that would stand an excellent chance of attracting enough support to get Obama to sign it. Can't be done right now, but it should be proposed starting in the fall, after the primaries have ended.

130 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:24:29am

Work beckons.

131 cliffster  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:24:42am

re: #122 HoosierHoops

Hi..My brackets are busted.. But I still have the Wildcats in the East, Duke and I have the Orangeman winning the Championship.. I know it's crazy..But 98% of America had Kansas winning...
Because of Karma..I'm not going to get cocky about it..
/Never piss off the Basketball Gods

Brackets are all crazy messed up this year. Parity rules in the NCAA. Well, this year at least.

132 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:25:22am

Anyone watching Obama sign the bill this morning?

133 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:25:26am

re: #127 Lateralis

They actually are defending States rights. You are kidding yourself if you don't think there are serious constitutional questions requiring individuals to purchase health insurance.

the SC will just bend the commerce laws even further, if it comes to that

134 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:26:17am

re: #128 Dragon_Lady

I wonder how many insurance companies are going to go under because of this bill, and how many doctors are going to quit practicing medicine as well?

mine already did...that's one

135 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:26:23am

re: #127 Lateralis

There are constitutional questions, but I don't think the cases will be strong enough to overturn the provisions in question. There is sufficient legal basis for HCR to pass at the federal level based on Art. 1, Sec. 8, Cl. 18 of the US Constitution. However, unfunded mandates imposed on the states could raise issues of federalism and require the federal government to provide such payments or else end those mandates. Even there, unfunded mandates are a well established (albeit a bad one) practice.

136 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:26:57am

Oooh, CBS2 News is reporting that ACORN is closing its doors because of all the scandals! JUST saw it reported!

137 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:27:18am

re: #133 albusteve

They wont even have to bend it at all. IMO Commerce Clause analysis wouldn't have to change at all to uphold HCR.

138 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:28:09am

question for HH I've always wondered...
how are the bracket regions determined, who plays in what region...by lotto?

139 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:28:11am

re: #123 Dragon_Lady

Upding for not pissing off the Basketball Gods! ;)

Never piss off the Basketball Gods.. I told the story here a couple of years ago that I slide into the Aluminum bench court side and slit my wrist on the edge..67 stitches.. Blood everywhere.. And I do recall some fans fainting before They carted me off..
Never Piss off the Basketball Gods.. I have the scar to prove it..In those days they gave you great painkillers...

140 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:28:23am

What exactly is this HCR bill going to do for people who can barely afford crushing insurance premiums? All I have heard is that premiums are going to skyrocket, in which case I will have to drop my coverage and have NO insurance.

What is the great victory in that?

141 palomino  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:28:36am

re: #128 Dragon_Lady

The average doctor makes well over 300k. And you think they're gonna quit, to do what instead?

Also, the AMA--an organization with at least a couple of doctors--supported the bill.

142 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:28:56am

re: #137 lawhawk

They wont even have to bend it at all. IMO Commerce Clause analysis wouldn't have to change at all to uphold HCR.

probably true

143 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:29:16am

re: #132 The Sanity Inspector

Anyone watching Obama sign the bill this morning?

Link. Folks are taking their seats.

144 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:29:52am

re: #140 Alouette

What exactly is this HCR bill going to do for people who can barely afford crushing insurance premiums? All I have heard is that premiums are going to skyrocket, in which case I will have to drop my coverage and have NO insurance.

What is the great victory in that?

You get to be fined, be unable to pay, go to jail, and THEN get free healthcare!

145 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:30:28am

re: #139 HoosierHoops

Never piss off the Basketball Gods.. I told the story here a couple of years ago that I slide into the Aluminum bench court side and slit my wrist on the edge..67 stitches.. Blood everywhere.. And I do recall some fans fainting before They carted me off..
Never Piss off the Basketball Gods.. I have the scar to prove it..In those days they gave you great painkillers...

Must have hurt something awful! I have a similar story but it was at the Steel Challenge, no I wasn't shot but I did get a nasty cut and it got infected.

146 palomino  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:30:51am

re: #132 The Sanity Inspector

Anyone watching Obama sign the bill this morning?

He's gonna do it right handed, just to show what a fucking stud he is.

147 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:31:25am

re: #141 palomino

The average doctor makes well over 300k. And you think they're gonna quit, to do what instead?

Also, the AMA--an organization with at least a couple of doctors--supported the bill.

AMA barely counts...only 20% of docs even belong...AMA is a political lobby...my doc to a fat, lazy job teaching at UNM and his wife is a PA...they have plenty of money

148 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:31:33am

Obama and Biden come onstage; Obama gives a couple of thumbs-up and "you-da-man!" finger jabs to the crowd.

149 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:31:47am

re: #132 The Sanity Inspector

Anyone watching Obama sign the bill this morning?

Can't help but watch, CBS News has it on, I'm sure all the other news stations do too.

150 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:31:52am

re: #138 albusteve

question for HH I've always wondered...
how are the bracket regions determined, who plays in what region...by lotto?

No..They put together a Committee every year from AD's from different conferences.. A Bipartisian group so to speak in sports...
Sunday afternoon they make the picks..But you can't pick your own conference Universities...That makes it fair...unlike politics

151 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:33:06am

Would someone mind live-blogging this? I can't play sound at my present undisclosed location.

152 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:33:08am

re: #148 The Sanity Inspector

Obama and Biden come onstage; Obama gives a couple of thumbs-up and "you-da-man!" finger jabs to the crowd.

Biden and his grandstanding...don't think I can stand it without gagging...yak,yak,yak

153 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:33:09am

re: #144 The Sanity Inspector

You get to be fined, be unable to pay, go to jail, and THEN get free healthcare!

as another ward of the state...the rolls will swell, taxes increase to pay for them, and the whole plan will fall together...a masterpiece of socialization

154 Lateralis  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:33:09am

re: #137 lawhawk

They wont even have to bend it at all. IMO Commerce Clause analysis wouldn't have to change at all to uphold HCR.

Hasn't the supreme court suggested that there can be limitations to the commerce clause. It would seem expanding it to require the purchase of health care insurance is considerable expansion of the clause and opens the door for the federal government to place even more requirements on the individual.

155 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:34:11am

re: #149 Dragon_Lady

Can't help but watch, CBS News has it on, I'm sure all the other news stations do too.

he'll probably do a happy dance shuffle then bow several times

156 badger1970  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:34:33am

re: #150 HoosierHoops

Not to mention of who can't play whom and where (and on what days (BYU)). It's an unenviable task.

157 cliffster  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:34:37am

Looks like the transition is complete. Bush is now Obama.

158 palomino  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:35:06am

re: #147 albusteve

AMA barely counts...only 20% of docs even belong...AMA is a political lobby...my doc to a fat, lazy job teaching at UNM and his wife is a PA...they have plenty of money

your doctor's wife doesn't count.

Most docs like their money, like most people. So they won't just quit because of more headachey regulations and similar shit.

159 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:35:38am

re: #150 HoosierHoops

No..They put together a Committee every year from AD's from different conferences.. A Bipartisian group so to speak in sports...
Sunday afternoon they make the picks..But you can't pick your own conference Universities...That makes it fair...unlike politics

so they just stick UNM in the east arbitrarily?...and what of the venues?...how are those determined?

160 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:36:28am

re: #141 palomino

The average doctor doesn't make $300k.

According to the BLS,:

Anesthesiologists 34,230 94.99 197,570 (3)

Family and general practitioners 106,210 77.64 161,490 75.60
Internists, general 46,980 84.97 176,740 (3)
Obstetricians and gynecologists 19,750 92.68 192,780 (3)
Pediatricians, general 29,170 73.74 153,370 70.21
Psychiatrists 22,140 74.06 154,050 74.13
Surgeons 47,070 99.41 206,770 (3)
Physicians and surgeons, all other 262,850 79.33 165,000 (3)

The chart is somewhat kludged, but the first column is the # of people in that classification, the second is the hourly wage, third column is annual wage, and the fourth is median hourly. Under no such calculation is the average doctor making $300k.

Moreover, the average doctor comes into the field with a crushing debt burden.


* $139,517 – According to the Association of American Medical Colleges, the average educational debt of indebted graduates of the class of 2007. The average debt of graduating medical students increased in 2007 by 6.9 percent over the previous year.
* 75.5 percent of graduates have debt of at least $100,000
* 87.6 percent of graduating medical students carry outstanding loans

Those figures are worse when you focus on pediatricians and general practitioners.

161 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:36:51am

re: #136 Dragon_Lady

Oooh, CBS2 News is reporting that ACORN is closing its doors because of all the scandals! JUST saw it reported!

No, they're just changing their name.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

162 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:36:51am

re: #145 Dragon_Lady

Must have hurt something awful! I have a similar story but it was at the Steel Challenge, no I wasn't shot but I did get a nasty cut and it got infected.

It really really hurt...
But the worst was a torn ACL of my left knee...
I'll never forget how painful the weight of a hospital sheet was on my leg...
I'll never forget that pain

163 Soap_Man  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:37:26am

re: #66 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, but O'Reilly has changed a bit. He's throwing far fewer bombs these days and settling into the "flagship show host" role.

Bill-O is still my second favorite person on Fox News, behind Shep.

164 sagehen  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:37:30am

re: #140 Alouette

What exactly is this HCR bill going to do for people who can barely afford crushing insurance premiums? All I have heard is that premiums are going to skyrocket, in which case I will have to drop my coverage and have NO insurance.

What is the great victory in that?

Medicare will now be open to people whose incomes are 133% of the poverty line; above that there's subsidies to buy a policy through the exchange, with partial subsidies for people with incomes up to 4x the poverty line.

165 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:37:46am

re: #127 Lateralis

They actually are defending States rights. You are kidding yourself if you don't think there are serious constitutional questions requiring individuals to purchase health insurance.

Honest question. How will individuals be forced to have health insurance?

166 cliffster  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:38:08am

re: #160 lawhawk

Stop it. It's so much fun to make up stuff and throw it out there. Don't be such a party pooper.

167 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:38:25am

re: #154 Lateralis

Hasn't the supreme court suggested that there can be limitations to the commerce clause. It would seem expanding it to require the purchase of health care insurance is considerable expansion of the clause and opens the door for the federal government to place even more requirements on the individual.

thanks...that was sort of my question too...is the purchase of insurance a commercial activity?...would a favorable ruling set a precedent?...I don't know about that stuff

168 jvic  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:38:36am

re: #27 palomino

Like Cheney said, "Deficits don't matter."

According to Paul O'Neill, he said that shortly before he got O'Neill fired as Sec Treasury for worrying about deficits. However, the full quote is "Reagan proved deficits don't matter."

In his Farewell Address, Reagan explicitly expressed regret for the deficit he was leaving behind.

Not only was Cheney wrong, he was smearing Reagan. Was he ignorant or lying? If I had to make the call, I'd look at the overall Bush administration and Cheney's role in it, and say he was lying.

If somebody requests links, I'll dig them out sometime later today.
*** *** *** ***
I second the nomination of Francis Fukuyama. Apparently if you're wrong on a big enough scale, it doesn't affect your standing as a pundit.

I've paid as much attention to Jim Bennett and the Anglosphere as I have to Fukuyama and the End of History: not much.
*** *** *** ***
For wrong punditry, the Malthusians are a gift that keeps on giving. If technological progress stops, they may finally be correct.

Speaking of technological progress, there's Ray Kurzweil and that whole crowd. Are we all enjoying our accelerating prosperity?

169 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:38:48am

re: #161 Mad Al-Jaffee

I warned that they'd come back under a different form and their spinoff WFP is still quite active, particularly in places like NY.

The group needs to clean up its act and deal with the serious training issues that were raised in the videos (and confirmed by the NYT - moral and ethical flexibility exhibited by the workers at multiple offices is a troubling problem that needs to be addressed).

170 Pacificlady  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:39:44am

Don't know all the ramifications of the bill, but one thing I am sure of - is that emergency department use will go up. I keep hearing that the bill will reduce ED use. BS. Mass. has experienced an increase in use of ED since passing its universal care. Here's the scenario: I have health insurance, I don't have a health care provider (not enough providers to cover those 31-47 million newly insured individuals), so I am going to the ED to get my health care.

171 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:40:31am

re: #158 palomino

your doctor's wife doesn't count.

Most docs like their money, like most people. So they won't just quit because of more headachey regulations and similar shit.

are you the Person who decides who 'counts' with every issue?...the question was, what will they do?...I merely related what mine did, and in that regard it matters that his wife is extremely well paid too

172 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:41:15am

They're all but doing the Snoopy Dance.

One thing I'll concede: After this, no one can say that Obama doesn't have any experience managing or leading anything. This is huge.

173 cliffster  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:41:18am

Hey Hoops - I never got to razz you for the tight game Golden State played against San Antonio the other night...

174 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:41:47am

re: #162 HoosierHoops

It really really hurt...
But the worst was a torn ACL of my left knee...
I'll never forget how painful the weight of a hospital sheet was on my leg...
I'll never forget that pain

Yeah, I know pain and it knows me, never a day goes by without that constant companion pain. Back injuries, Arthritis, sinus infection, all are things I can do without but they follow me like faithful puppies, personally I'd much rather have the real puppy. But today's a Holiday! For I can walk and get out of bed, so every day is something to celebrate! Happy Tuesday to you! :-)

175 sagehen  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:42:00am

re: #170 Pacificlady

But San Francisco's seen a reduction in emergency room use since they started their city-run primary-care clinics (sliding scale monthly fee to join).

176 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:42:35am

re: #169 lawhawk

I warned that they'd come back under a different form and their spinoff WFP is still quite active, particularly in places like NY.

The group needs to clean up its act and deal with the serious training issues that were raised in the videos (and confirmed by the NYT - moral and ethical flexibility exhibited by the workers at multiple offices is a troubling problem that needs to be addressed).

Quite Concur. It was not its politics that brought ACORN down, it was extremely poor management and personnel selection.

177 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:42:59am

re: #165 eclectic infidel

Honest question. How will individuals be forced to have health insurance?

they won't be forced but,via the IRS, they will penalize you

178 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:43:11am

re: #161 Mad Al-Jaffee

No, they're just changing their name.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Now why doesn't that surprise me? A news channel making up news? Surprise, surprise, surprise!//

179 garhighway  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:44:23am

re: #170 Pacificlady

Don't know all the ramifications of the bill, but one thing I am sure of - is that emergency department use will go up. I keep hearing that the bill will reduce ED use. BS. Mass. has experienced an increase in use of ED since passing its universal care. Here's the scenario: I have health insurance, I don't have a health care provider (not enough providers to cover those 31-47 million newly insured individuals), so I am going to the ED to get my health care.

Link?

180 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:44:29am

re: #177 albusteve

they won't be forced but,via the IRS, they will penalize you

Of course. What about affordability?

181 filetandrelease  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:44:30am

re: #165 eclectic infidel

Honest question. How will individuals be forced to have health insurance?


The IRS just requested 10 billion dollars a year for their part in enforcement.

182 palomino  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:44:51am

re: #160 lawhawk

I was looking at specialists who average 340k

But you're right, GPs and others make just under 200k on average. But this is still well above the national average, and I don't think docs will be quitting in droves to do something else, if for no other reason the simple fact that their earning power is lower in other fields.

183 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:45:33am

re: #175 sagehen

But San Francisco's seen a reduction in emergency room use since they started their city-run primary-care clinics (sliding scale monthly fee to join).

Hey, we could use some of those down here! Send us one, will you?

184 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:45:44am

re: #174 Dragon_Lady

Put me down under the chronic sinus infection group. Since spring has "sprung" I've come down with my first serious one of the year. A nice weekend spent essentially out cold. Either the infection does that, or the meds being used to treat the symptoms.

About the only real beneficiaries are the cats, since I'm around to be used as a convenient pillow/warmer for their snoozing activities. Plus I'm on hand for demands regarding food or grooming attention.

185 avanti  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:45:59am

re: #165 eclectic infidel

Honest question. How will individuals be forced to have health insurance?

They'll either file a IRS form that shows they have coverage or have to pay a fine. If they are very poor, they can get free insurance, up to four times the poverty level, they'll get a tax break to help.
They have four years to tweak that.

186 badger1970  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:46:04am

re: #181 filetandrelease

Wouldn't it be easier just to give every American a $30 coupon? //

187 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:46:19am

RE: the legal challenge, from Ezra Klein:

To put it very simply: This is good politics for conservatives but an unlikely legal strategy. And as Dave's article makes clear, the politicians pushing it know that as well as anyone. Two of the grounds for challenges that most excited conservatives ("deem and pass" and the Nelson deal) will not be relevant to the final bill, as "deem and pass" wasn't used and the Nelson deal is going to be erased in reconciliation. That means conservatives are largely left with the individual mandate -- an idea developed by the conservative Heritage Foundation and passed into law in Massachusetts by Republican presidential aspirant Mitt Romney -- and that's very unlikely to be repealed...

And as a final note, let me propose a new rule: No conservative who supports these legal challenges can complain about activist judges ever again.

[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

188 filetandrelease  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:46:24am

In defense of these pundits, it is difficult to anticipate the levels in which the current democrat party will stoop in which to pass legislation.

189 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:46:34am

re: #178 Dragon_Lady

Now why doesn't that surprise me? A news channel making up news? Surprise, surprise, surprise!//

That was on Red Eye, which is more of a satire/comedy show than a news show. And it's probably the funnniest show on tv.

190 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:46:43am

re: #180 eclectic infidel

Of course. What about affordability?

dunno, ask Lawhawk...that's what I do

191 palomino  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:47:22am

re: #171 albusteve

are you the Person who decides who 'counts' with every issue?...the question was, what will they do?...I merely related what mine did, and in that regard it matters that his wife is extremely well paid too

sometimes you decide who counts, sometimes i decide. this is america after all.

your doctor's wife doesn't interest me. yawn.

your doctor's mistress is another story.

192 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:47:31am

re: #188 filetandrelease

In defense of these pundits, it is difficult to anticipate the levels in which the current democrat party will stoop in which to pass legislation.

What do you mean?

193 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:48:11am

re: #182 palomino

Salaries are just one aspect of doctor compensation; the other is insurance costs. Certain specialties have huge malpractice/insurance costs, particularly in the surgical and ob/gyn fields.

I don't think that many doctors will quit, but I'm also not sure that people will flock to the profession either. Moreover, I would expect some doctors to opt out of accepting insurance or Medicare/Medicaid or accepting new patients altogether depending on their individual situations, which is the current situation.

194 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:48:14am

re: #173 cliffster

Hey Hoops - I never got to razz you for the tight game Golden State played against San Antonio the other night...

Ring ring
Tim here
Wanna go to a strip club tonight?
We are playing the Warriors tonight..
There are going to be guns..
I can't do that..
Naked girls
Naked girls?
And lots of guns..
I don't know..
Come on Tim!

195 cliffster  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:48:37am

re: #188 filetandrelease

In defense of these pundits, it is difficult to anticipate the levels in which the current democrat party will stoop in which to pass legislation.

Yeah, you call a game for one team but then the other team pays off the refs.. what you gonna do?

196 garhighway  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:49:43am

re: #188 filetandrelease

In defense of these pundits, it is difficult to anticipate the levels in which the current democrat party will stoop in which to pass legislation.

Like voting.

Outrageous.

197 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:49:55am

Anyone have a link to where the bills are posted? I'm not even sure where to look.

198 cliffster  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:50:46am

re: #194 HoosierHoops

They are called, The Warriors

199 palomino  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:51:00am

re: #176 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur. It was not its politics that brought ACORN down, it was extremely poor management and personnel selection.

ACORN sucks and deserves to disappear.

But the hysteria over them is totally unfounded. Beck and Breitbart actually claim this scandal is comparable to Watergate. Hence the pushback from the left.

200 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:51:20am

re: #198 cliffster

Warriorrrs, come out and plaaaay!!!!

201 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:51:28am

re: #195 cliffster

Yeah, you call a game for one team but then the other team pays off the refs.. what you gonna do?

Fire the refs.

202 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:51:41am

re: #196 garhighway

Like voting.

Outrageous.

no, bribing Ben Nelson and others is the outrage

203 filetandrelease  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:52:10am

re: #201 Dark_Falcon

Fire the refs.

But first, let's send them burnt toast.

204 Lateralis  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:53:06am

re: #182 palomino

I was looking at specialists who average 340k

But you're right, GPs and others make just under 200k on average. But this is still well above the national average, and I don't think docs will be quitting in droves to do something else, if for no other reason the simple fact that their earning power is lower in other fields.

40,000 - 50,000 below 200,000 I would not consider "just under". Docs work very long hours to earn their income. There are many more ways to earn 150,000 a year without going through med school and the loan burden they are left with.

205 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:53:11am

Obama just made the bill a memorial to Teddy! Now I have seen everything! The sky can fall now.//

206 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:53:45am

re: #204 Lateralis

40,000 - 50,000 below 200,000 I would not consider "just under". Docs work very long hours to earn their income. There are many more ways to earn 150,000 a year without going through med school and the loan burden they are left with.

Don't forget residency. Grown men cry remembering residency.

207 Pacificlady  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:53:45am

Re; #175 Sagehan

That's because SF added providers to actually provide health care. This bill doesn't add providers to a system that's already short of providers.

I'll get the link later. I've got to go to work now.

208 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:54:03am

re: #203 filetandrelease

But first, let's send them burnt toast.

Why burnt toast?

209 filetandrelease  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:54:12am

What? major legislation needs a super majority? We don't need no stinkin' super majority. We are democrats!

210 filetandrelease  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:54:40am

re: #208 Dark_Falcon

Why burnt toast?

You didn't get the memo?

211 sagehen  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:55:52am

re: #193 lawhawk

Salaries are just one aspect of doctor compensation; the other is insurance costs. Certain specialties have huge malpractice/insurance costs, particularly in the surgical and ob/gyn fields.

I don't think that many doctors will quit, but I'm also not sure that people will flock to the profession either. Moreover, I would expect some doctors to opt out of accepting insurance or Medicare/Medicaid or accepting new patients altogether depending on their individual situations, which is the current situation.

My brother's practice doesn't accept insurance at all -- he got tired of spending ten hours a week on the phone arguing with claims departments, he didn't like paying a full-time billing clerk to navigate the umpteen gazillion kinds of forms and codes and... it's just easier to charge everybody cash or check or mastercard, plus now he can afford to take on some pro bono patients.

212 subsailor68  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:56:26am

re: #197 Jadespring

Anyone have a link to where the bills are posted? I'm not even sure where to look.

Here's a link to the Senate bill. It's a pdf file. A very long one.

;-)

Senate Bill (pdf)

213 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:57:39am

History.

214 jvic  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:58:20am

re: #115 garhighway

It isn't. State AG's are playing to the yahoos in the peanut gallery. They know that they have zero chance of stopping or even slowing down HCR. (p)Remember what "AG" stands for: Aspiring Governor. It's all about getting ink. They count on the fact that no one will remember how much money they blew on a futile lawsuit that they knew was doomed to fail.

re: #127 Lateralis

They actually are defending States rights. You are kidding yourself if you don't think there are serious constitutional questions requiring individuals to purchase health insurance.

I agree with both posts. As a matter of due process, legislation this sweeping should be vetted by the courts.

215 palomino  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:58:24am

re: #193 lawhawk

Lots of docs already refuse to accept any new Medicare patients. Not sure how that will be affected.

Still too much prestige, money and excitement in the medical field to cause doctor shortages.

216 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:58:29am

re: #211 sagehen

My brother's practice doesn't accept insurance at all -- he got tired of spending ten hours a week on the phone arguing with claims departments, he didn't like paying a full-time billing clerk to navigate the umpteen gazillion kinds of forms and codes and... it's just easier to charge everybody cash or check or mastercard, plus now he can afford to take on some pro bono patients.

My doctor charges me $80.00 per visit, and if I have to he'll let me postdated the check for up to three weeks. It helps a lot but whoa is me if I need to go to a specialist!

217 garhighway  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:58:32am

re: #202 albusteve

no, bribing Ben Nelson and others is the outrage

Horse trading has been a part of politics since the Magna Carta.

Unless and until we are ruled by philospher-kings, it always will be.

218 cliffster  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:58:34am
219 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:58:57am

Muchas smooches for Madame Speaker...

220 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:58:59am

re: #213 Stanley Sea

History.

History!
First bill I've ever seen signed...

221 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:59:27am

Well that's crappy. I just googled to find where the bill is posted online. I clicked on one of the first links that came up which talked about the bill being posted online and it went to some site full of crappy your computer is being attacked stuff. It set my malware program off and it's scan just came back that this site which said it had the bill posted was trying to send a bunch of trojans to my computer.

222 andres  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:59:54am

re: #202 albusteve

no, bribing Ben Nelson and others is the outrage

Yes, who wants a Senator to secure funds for their home state?

/

223 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 8:59:55am

re: #213 Stanley Sea

History.


Hindsight!

224 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:00:16am

re: #212 subsailor68

Here's a link to the Senate bill. It's a pdf file. A very long one.

;-)

Senate Bill (pdf)

Thanks.

225 subsailor68  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:00:39am

re: #212 subsailor68

re: #221 Jadespring

Try my link at 212. I didn't have any problem with that one.

226 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:00:43am

re: #221 Jadespring

Check out the Senate.gov and House.gov websites. And the Library of Congress.. no need for 3d party sites.

[Link: thomas.loc.gov...]

227 filetandrelease  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:00:45am

snip

Does the Constitution allow for execution of the Slaughter Solution? Not according to the Senate Parliamentarian and many constitutional scholars. But their opinions shouldn't be needed to answer this commonsense question. The very concept of the existence of a "supermajority" in parliamentary procedure is predicated on the fundamental idea that there are some matters of such grave importance and lasting consequence that they warrant some reasonable levels of broad consensus to rightfully become the law of the land.


By definition, a supermajority vote threshold is the mechanism established to protect the rights of a minority from the tyranny of a majority. The very existence of the Senate itself was architected by our founding fathers to serve (not rule) as the "more deliberative" legislative body with higher thresholds of consensus required for the most important matters, for the expressed purpose of serving as a check and balance to the "simple majority rule" of the House.

228 badger1970  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:01:27am

re: #219 The Sanity Inspector

The smooching may actually add a level of elasticity to that face.

229 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:01:45am

Oh, now this is appropriate! Right after the bill signing the first show on iiisss....Lets Make A Deal!

230 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:01:49am

re: #210 filetandrelease

You didn't get the memo?

No, I didn't.

231 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:02:12am

re: #221 Jadespring

Well that's crappy. I just googled to find where the bill is posted online. I clicked on one of the first links that came up which talked about the bill being posted online and it went to some site full of crappy your computer is being attacked stuff. It set my malware program off and it's scan just came back that this site which said it had the bill posted was trying to send a bunch of trojans to my computer.

Congratulations. You have just hit on one thing all lizards can agree on.

These people deserve their own special circle of hell for doing garbage like that.

232 Lateralis  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:02:47am

re: #215 palomino

Lots of docs already refuse to accept any new Medicare patients. Not sure how that will be affected.

Still too much prestige, money and excitement in the medical field to cause doctor shortages.


I have to disagree with this. I don't know the link but a discussion I had with a doc friend he indicated it is taking 2.5 physicians to replace retiring docs. He indicated a couple of factors. First, it is not a calling like it used to be and QOL is more important to the new physician and they are not as willing to work the long hours. Second, more woman are graduating from med school and many of them at some point will not practice full time. In his practice he has three male docs that work full time and 4 female docs that work part time.

233 filetandrelease  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:03:42am

re: #230 Dark_Falcon

No, I didn't.

A movement was started yesterday deemed silly by some to send burnt toast to those who voted for the reconciliation, a symbolic gesture suggesting "you are toast", aka, out of office.

234 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:03:43am

re: #232 Lateralis

You should specify what full-time/part-time is for docs.

235 garhighway  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:04:21am

re: #214 jvic

I agree with both posts. As a matter of due process, legislation this sweeping should be vetted by the courts.

The state's rights argument is utter nonsense. Those constitutional issues were settled a long time ago. The kind of regulation of insurance contemplated by the HCR bill is classic, down-the-middle-of-the-plate Commerce Clause stuff.

As is using the tax code to regulate behavior. Want more energy efficiency? Give a tax credit for those that spend money on it. Want home ownership to go up? Make mortgage interest deductible. You may not like one particular policy choice or another, but the pracatice of using the tax code for this purpose has been ruled on over and over and over again.

236 andres  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:04:45am

Slightly-OT, but I found this highly disturbing:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-03-22/health-care-fatwa/

The vitriol stemming from yesterday’s health-care vote—from Randy Neugebauer’s shout of “baby-killer” aimed at pro-life Democrat Bart Stupak on the House floor to slurs shouted at John Lewis and Barney Frank from crowds outside the Capitol building—has reached a new apex: a call for the death of all 219 Democrats who voted for the bill, through the power of prayer.

237 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:04:46am

re: #227 filetandrelease

The "Slaughter Rule" i.e. Deem and Pass was not used!

238 filetandrelease  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:07:23am

re: #237 Stanley Sea

The "Slaughter Rule" i.e. Deem and Pass was not used!

So you expect a super majority in the Senate to approve this bill?

239 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:07:43am

re: #233 filetandrelease

A movement was started yesterday deemed silly by some to send burnt toast to those who voted for the reconciliation, a symbolic gesture suggesting "you are toast", aka, out of office.

You're right, that is silly.

240 Lateralis  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:07:53am

re: #234 EmmmieG

They are working about 3 days a week.

241 recusancy  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:09:28am

re: #238 filetandrelease

So you expect a super majority in the Senate to approve this bill?

The bill already passed the senate last year. The house voted on the senate bill unchanged. It's law as of 20 minutes ago.

242 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:09:41am

re: #236 andres

Slightly-OT, but I found this highly disturbing:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/201 0-03-22/health-care-fatwa/

That is just sooo wrong! I wonder what God thinks about that?

243 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:09:55am

re: #238 filetandrelease

So you expect a super majority in the Senate to approve this bill?

I believe, but the majority vote of the Senate will pass the bill. The super majority is needed because of the Republican filibuster.

244 keloyd  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:10:04am

I'm curious what doctors really think about this. I'm guessing many GP's will happily trade the current bullcorn for a little less cash and more of the day spent practicing medicine. While the AMA supports it, only 20 % of doctors are members, but maybe most doctors are just too busy for all the politics? In a world where a black democrat carried the active duty military vote, I'd like to see some disinterested 3rd party look into this.

Strategically, this whole campaign will be studied for 50 years. You know how the military bent over backwards to avoid Viet Nam for 30 years after Viet Nam? I'm thinking Republican congressmen will have a case of that for decades.

OH OH - on CNN Dr. Sangay Gupta just mentioned that for med school grads - 2% go to primary care, and we need it more like 1/3. Now that the camel's nose is in the tent, maybe Obama can fix that too.

245 Lidane  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:10:19am

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

That's something that can be addressed. David Frum is right: The GOP should accept what has happened and focus on fixing the legislation's problems.

Republicans Scoff At Frum's Thesis, Demand More Obama Opposition

re: #163 Soap_Man

Bill-O is still my second favorite person on Fox News, behind Shep.

Haven't watched Bill-O in years, but Shep is awesome. He's the only one I can really stand over at Fox.

re: #208 Dark_Falcon

Why burnt toast?

Freepers So Angry They Will Burn Toast At You!

246 filetandrelease  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:10:19am

re: #239 Dark_Falcon

You're right, that is silly.

Actually I sent one to Suzanne Kozmos

247 palomino  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:10:56am

re: #232 Lateralis

Maybe but that's purely anecdotal. I haven't heard anything similar from my dad the doc or my sis in law the nurse.

You may be right, but at this point it's in the right's interest to push this meme (regardless of veracity) as another in the parade of horribles they predict resulting from HCR. Not outrageous like the "death panel" canard, but not yet verified.

And, at the risk of sounding cynical, there are hundreds of thousands of qualified doctors around the world who would probably love to practice in the US. This may ultimately be part of the solution. I'd hate to think of the US as the Yankees, "stealing" every other team's best players, but this already fills much of the need, and could to a greater extent in the future.

248 filetandrelease  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:11:49am

re: #243 Stanley Sea

Refer to 227 as to why the Super Majority was established and is needed. It has nothing to do with Republicans.

249 Spare O'Lake  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:12:04am

re: #235 garhighway

The state's rights argument is utter nonsense. Those constitutional issues were settled a long time ago. The kind of regulation of insurance contemplated by the HCR bill is classic, down-the-middle-of-the-plate Commerce Clause stuff.

As is using the tax code to regulate behavior. Want more energy efficiency? Give a tax credit for those that spend money on it. Want home ownership to go up? Make mortgage interest deductible. You may not like one particular policy choice or another, but the pracatice of using the tax code for this purpose has been ruled on over and over and over again.

What about the part that forces folks to purchase insurance policies - has that also been ruled to be within the Federal jurisdiction?

250 SixDegrees  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:12:18am

re: #215 palomino

Lots of docs already refuse to accept any new Medicare patients. Not sure how that will be affected.

Still too much prestige, money and excitement in the medical field to cause doctor shortages.

Maybe. I'd expect any reduction in compensation to result, first, in a wave of early retirements. These would be the medical providers who are making the most, and therefore have the most to lose, while also being in the best financial position to bail. Whether this will be significant or not is difficult to say.

A more serious problem is the sudden addition of perhaps 30 million people to those with coverage and the demand that will create for medical professionals. Such an increase can't be easily accommodated - in fact, it will almost certainly drive costs upwards as demand skyrockets without a matching increase in supply. Meeting that supply is hampered by the length of the training pipeline - 8 to 12 years (or more) for physicians, 2 - 12 for various other roles like aides, nurses and so forth - and also by the width of the pipeline, since only so many students can be accommodated by the existing educational infrastructure and funding to increase this was resoundingly defeated by Congress as recently as last fall. It will likely take a couple decades for the system to adjust to the added patient load.

251 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:12:25am

re: #246 filetandrelease

Actually I sent one to Suzanne Kozmos

You did? You toasted a piece of bread & mailed it? Ha! I think it's nuts, but it is a "voice of the people" move.

252 The Sanity Inspector  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:12:35am

re: #221 Jadespring

Well that's crappy. I just googled to find where the bill is posted online. I clicked on one of the first links that came up which talked about the bill being posted online and it went to some site full of crappy your computer is being attacked stuff. It set my malware program off and it's scan just came back that this site which said it had the bill posted was trying to send a bunch of trojans to my computer.

Click on this C-Span page, and scroll down to the health care links.

253 recusancy  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:12:49am

re: #243 Stanley Sea

I believe, but the majority vote of the Senate will pass the bill. The super majority is needed because of the Republican filibuster.

They already passed the bill on xmas eve last year. The house voted on the senate bill and it passed. It's law.

The senate will use reconciliation next week to vote on taking out some of the egregious deals such as the Nelson deal.

254 Soap_Man  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:12:58am

re: #226 lawhawk

Check out the Senate.gov and House.gov websites. And the Library of Congress.. no need for 3d party sites.

[Link: thomas.loc.gov...]

I'm glad you're here. Maybe you can answer a question no one else has been able to answer for me.

If SCOTUS agrees that the mandate is unconstitutional, would that strike down the entire bill or just that specific prevision?

255 garhighway  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:13:44am

re: #253 recusancy

They already passed the bill on xmas eve last year. The house voted on the senate bill and it passed. It's law.

The senate will use reconciliation next week to vote on taking out some of the egregious deals such as the Nelson deal.

Exactly right.

256 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:14:40am

re: #8 Cato the Elder

My favorite wrong pundit is Francis "History Is Over" Fukuyama.

Yes, history is what happened to other people.

Silly neo-Hegelians.

257 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:15:27am

re: #20 albusteve

the dems call the scheme deficit neutral, then turn around and tell us there will be $570b in new taxes over ten years, and up to $3 in new spending to pay for it...who pays for that?...someone is gonna get soaked but good...it's a massive redistribution of wealth and a monumental federal power grab...too bad it has to be this way...an d I dare say nobody knows exactly what will happen with delivery or quality of care across the board...liberals are smug now, but it's still not known how this will effect the economy...taking the money from upper income brackets seems like a poor solution...we won!

The reason I know this health care bill will be full of WIN is because all of our Senators / Reps and congress creatures are getting the exact same coverage. Oh, what? They aren't!?

258 filetandrelease  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:16:39am

re: #253 recusancy

They already passed the bill on xmas eve last year. The house voted on the senate bill and it passed. It's law.

The senate will use reconciliation next week to vote on taking out some of the egregious deals such as the Nelson deal.


Pure brazen out in the open chicanery.

259 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:16:50am

re: #254 Soap_Man

I'm glad you're here. Maybe you can answer a question no one else has been able to answer for me.

If SCOTUS agrees that the mandate is unconstitutional, would that strike down the entire bill or just that specific prevision?

This was actually discussed above. There are severability clauses included with this kind of legislation such that if an individual provision was deemed unconstitutional or illegal by operation of another law, it would not invalidate the entire legislation - only the provision to be stricken.

260 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:17:05am

re: #250 SixDegrees

Maybe. I'd expect any reduction in compensation to result, first, in a wave of early retirements. These would be the medical providers who are making the most, and therefore have the most to lose, while also being in the best financial position to bail. Whether this will be significant or not is difficult to say.

A more serious problem is the sudden addition of perhaps 30 million people to those with coverage and the demand that will create for medical professionals. Such an increase can't be easily accommodated - in fact, it will almost certainly drive costs upwards as demand skyrockets without a matching increase in supply. Meeting that supply is hampered by the length of the training pipeline - 8 to 12 years (or more) for physicians, 2 - 12 for various other roles like aides, nurses and so forth - and also by the width of the pipeline, since only so many students can be accommodated by the existing educational infrastructure and funding to increase this was resoundingly defeated by Congress as recently as last fall. It will likely take a couple decades for the system to adjust to the added patient load.


last night HCR supporters would barely address this issue, most just blew it off....it's going to rear it's ugly head sooner than later and health care will be provided by foreign doctors...further, there will few jobs down the road for new grads....it will absolutely affect enrollments imo

261 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:17:17am

re: #257 Oh no...Sand People!

In Canada the congresspeople have national health care.

Some then fly to other countries to get care.

262 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:17:22am

The entire right wing was wrong on so many different levels. There was no substantial arguments against the bill. Obama just signed it into law. The world hasn't ended and the Dow is up 100 points this week. The party of No fails.

263 recusancy  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:17:23am

re: #258 filetandrelease

Pure brazen out in the open chicanery.

How so?

264 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:17:28am

I still can't see what all the fuss is about. I was not, and am not, thrilled with this development, but I don't think it's a dark day for the republic or anything like that. I certainly won't go and waste perfectly good bread and postage to hassle the folk at the capitol post office.

You think they don't have enough problems without people sending them scorched pieces of Wonderbread all day long?

265 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:17:37am

re: #253 recusancy

They already passed the bill on xmas eve last year. The house voted on the senate bill and it passed. It's law.

The senate will use reconciliation next week to vote on taking out some of the egregious deals such as the Nelson deal.

Thanks, I know all this pretty much, but type like an idjit.

I can't say enough that everyone who has questions need to read Ezra Klein. He has gone through everything about HCR.

Ezra Klein will make you smarter on HCR

266 SixDegrees  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:17:57am

re: #227 filetandrelease

snip

The Senate filibuster rules are just that - rules. They don't have any basis in the Constitution, and a supermajority vote is not mentioned anywhere in that or any other governing document. The Senate is free to change the rules at any time it sees fit. Filibuster rules, in fact, weren't even adopted until the mid-1800s in the Senate; prior to that, a simple majority was all that was needed to move a bill through the entire process.

Although I rather like the idea of requiring a supermajority, at least for major pieces of legislation, there's no Constitutional requirement for it.

267 garhighway  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:17:58am

re: #249 Spare O'Lake

What about the part that forces folks to purchase insurance policies - has that also been ruled to be within the Federal jurisdiction?

It doesn't FORCE any individual to do anything. It says that one group of people get one tax treatment and a different group gets a different tax treatment. As the Code has done for a a very, very long time.

268 lawhawk  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:18:05am

re: #259 lawhawk

Sec. 155 of the reconciliation for example:
SEC. 155. SEVERABILITY.

If any provision of this division, or any application of such provision to any person or circumstance, is held to be unconstitutional, the remainder of the provisions of this division and the application of the provision to any other person or circumstance shall not be affected.

269 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:18:07am

But hey, never despair, I am in the process of working out an 'all cash network' of Docs. It's already worked out to be 60% cheaper than insurance costs and you can make payments. Best thing is, they let you cut straight to the front of the line.

The Doctor Black market...it's coming. (well, actually it's already here for those in the 'know'.)

270 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:18:59am

re: #261 EmmmieG

The best specialist in any particular field may not be in your home country - that counts America too.

271 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:19:11am

re: #269 Oh no...Sand People!

But hey, never despair, I am in the process of working out an 'all cash network' of Docs. It's already worked out to be 60% cheaper than insurance costs and you can make payments. Best thing is, they let you cut straight to the front of the line.

The Doctor Black market...it's coming. (well, actually it's already here for those in the 'know'.)

Yep, one of the smartest things I ever did was to go on a cash basis with the medical profession. Far and away a better deal than insurance, for our purposes.

272 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:19:14am

Thanks for all the links Lizards.

273 Soap_Man  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:19:17am

re: #259 lawhawk

This was actually discussed above. There are severability clauses included with this kind of legislation such that if an individual provision was deemed unconstitutional or illegal by operation of another law, it would not invalidate the entire legislation - only the provision to be stricken.

Thank you sir! (maam?)

You are a fountain of useful information.

274 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:19:24am

re: #270 wozzablog

The best specialist in any particular field may not be in your home country - that counts America too.

Canada isn't big enough to have good cardiologists?

275 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:19:37am

Fox says the mics caught Joe Biden whispering to Obama “This is a big fucking deal, man.”

Heh.

276 PISSED  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:19:38am

If you pay enough in bribes you can get anything you want....

277 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:19:54am

re: #264 Guanxi88

I still can't see what all the fuss is about. I was not, and am not, thrilled with this development, but I don't think it's a dark day for the republic or anything like that. I certainly won't go and waste perfectly good bread and postage to hassle the folk at the capitol post office.

You think they don't have enough problems without people sending them scorched pieces of Wonderbread all day long?

(Voice of a former postal clerk here; the job sucks on the best days, why make it any worse?)

278 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:20:46am

Britain expels Israeli diplomat over Dubai passport row

The UK is to expel an Israeli diplomat over the use of 12 forged British passports by the killers of Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in Dubai.

Foreign Secretary David Miliband told the Commons there were "compelling reasons" to believe Israel was responsible for the passport "misuse".

He said: "Such misuse is intolerable and a hazard for the safety of British nationals.

Israel says there is no proof it was behind the killing in Dubai in January.

BBC Middle East editor Jeremy Bowen said the expulsion sent a "very clear message" of British disapproval.

279 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:20:48am

re: #261 EmmmieG

In Canada the congresspeople have national health care.

Some then fly to other countries to get care.

Canada doesn't have congresspeople.

280 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:20:54am

re: #257 Oh no...Sand People!

That was propesed during the campaign - origfinally the Public Option would have offered similar levels of coverage to the congressional plan....... it was deemed too socialistic by those in the know to bother trying to get through congress.

281 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:20:55am

re: #262 Killgore Trout

Why would the act of signing a bill have any effect whatsoever? It hasn't even taken effect yet.

It's in the coming days and weeks and months and years that we will see the effects. Neither celebration nor mourning should happen until we see who was right and who was wrong.

For my money, I'm hoping for a middle path.

282 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:21:01am

re: #262 Killgore Trout

The entire right wing was wrong on so many different levels. There was no substantial arguments against the bill. Obama just signed it into law. The world hasn't ended and the Dow is up 100 points this week. The party of No fails.

I'll get back to you in 6 years on that comment. Then we shall be able to have more empirical data to back up or completely destroy what you just posted.

283 SixDegrees  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:21:09am

re: #260 albusteve

last night HCR supporters would barely address this issue, most just blew it off...it's going to rear it's ugly head sooner than later and health care will be provided by foreign doctors...further, there will few jobs down the road for new grads...it will absolutely affect enrollments imo

Or, Congress will suddenly notice the problem...and throw more Monopoly money at it in an attempt to solve it. Which sort of begs the question of the whole CBO analysis' accuracy, but that's already being revealed as a sham.

284 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:21:35am

re: #279 Jadespring

Elected officials. Parliamentcritters.

285 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:22:07am

re: #276 PISSED

If you pay enough in bribes you can get anything you want...

You can buy anything in this world with money.

286 Diane  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:22:12am

re: #155 albusteve

I thought bowing was reserved to "intimidating" nation leaders.
;)

287 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:23:09am

re: #285 Oh no...Sand People!

You can buy anything in this world with money.

Including politicians, and votes.

288 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:23:27am

re: #274 EmmmieG

As in the singuilarly best in the world - they may well have good ones - but if a certain canadian parliamentarian wants to use his own money to go to who he wants to go to anywhere in the world - thats his right.

British people can do it, so can Americans if they choose.

Britain for example doesn't have the greatest knee surgeon in the world for a particular kind of operation for sportsmen - they go to Finland or Colorado.

289 palomino  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:23:33am

re: #250 SixDegrees

It may indeed take that long, or even longer.

A couple of things though: first, fewer ER docs will be needed IF the previously uninsured stop using ERs as a first resort; those docs could then move to other areas.

Second, more and more routine work is being done by PAs, and the "pipeline" there is likely both faster and more flexible.

Finally, we can attract more doctors to immigrate if necessary. Even with a potentially less lucrative system, the US is a very attractive destination for people in the medical sciences. Already a huge number of our research scientists are foreign born.

290 cliffster  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:24:06am

re: #262 Killgore Trout

The entire right wing was wrong on so many different levels. There was no substantial arguments against the bill. Obama just signed it into law. The world hasn't ended and the Dow is up 100 points this week. The party of No fails.

Obama just signed it into law. My friend got hurt last week and he still doesn't have coverage. Health Care Reform fails.

291 garhighway  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:24:22am

re: #265 Stanley Sea

Thanks, I know all this pretty much, but type like an idjit.

I can't say enough that everyone who has questions need to read Ezra Klein. He has gone through everything about HCR.

Ezra Klein will make you smarter on HCR

An interesting post from Klein:

Merrill Goozner points out another little-noticed provision in the bill: "Drug and device companies will soon have to report payments to physicians in a national database, thanks to a little noted section of the health care reform bill called the Physician Payments Sunshine Act."

There were a lot of complaints about the transparency of the health-care reform process. I think most of those complaints were wrong: It's hard to identify another debate that stretched for this long, that featured this many legislative proposals and CBO analyses and interviews and op-eds and think-tank summaries and televised mark-ups, all of which were available to download on the Internet. There has simply never been a legislative debate that offered everyday Americans so much opportunity to read the primary documents and their explanations and estimations.

What got lost in this, however, is how much transparency the bill is going to bring to the health-care sector. It's not that every doctor visit will be televised, or every meeting of insurance executives streamed over the Internet. But hospitals will have to post prices. Insurance products will be presented with standardized information, consumer ratings and quality measures. The payments physicians take from drug and device companies will be in a public database. There will be independent funding for research on the relative effectiveness of different treatments. Some of these changes are small and some are big, but put together, the system is going to become a lot more visible in the coming years.

Yup: pure evil, this bill.

292 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:24:35am

re: #271 Guanxi88

Yep, one of the smartest things I ever did was to go on a cash basis with the medical profession. Far and away a better deal than insurance, for our purposes.

heh...once again, cash rules....every time...you can't have enough of it

293 dean_k  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:24:38am

re: #278 NJDhockeyfan

I'm with Miliband on this one.

294 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:25:00am

re: #282 Oh no...Sand People!

I'll get back to you in 6 years on that comment. Then we shall be able to have more empirical data to back up or completely destroy what you just posted.

True, but the opponents of healthcare reform have been pretty universally wrong about everything up to this point. I seriously doubt their predictions for the future are any more reliable.

295 darthstar  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:25:21am

If the GOP attacks the bill, and nobody's there to listen, are they still lying?

Reps Mike Pence and Cathy McMorris Rodgers on signing day.

296 Soap_Man  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:25:44am

re: #285 Oh no...Sand People!

You can buy anything in this world with money.

Homer: (about Mr. Burns) Well, there are some things in this world he can't buy with all his money.

Bart: Like what?

Homer: (long pause) A dinosaur.

297 garhighway  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:26:15am

re: #275 NJDhockeyfan

Fox says the mics caught Joe Biden whispering to Obama “This is a big fucking deal, man.”

Heh.

If he said it (one can never be sure with Fox) he is right.

It is.

298 SixDegrees  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:26:18am

re: #262 Killgore Trout

The entire right wing was wrong on so many different levels. There was no substantial arguments against the bill. Obama just signed it into law. The world hasn't ended and the Dow is up 100 points this week. The party of No fails.

I'm not following. The minority party, by definition, can't "fail" in anything like the sense you're trying to impute. "Success" or "failure" in the House, Senate or Executive Branch is determined exclusively by the Democrats and their ability to hold their own party together, which they were finally, if only barely, able to do.

Trying to cast this as some kind of "loss" for the Republicans is silly in the extreme.

299 Lateralis  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:26:20am

re: #247 palomino

Maybe but that's purely anecdotal. I haven't heard anything similar from my dad the doc or my sis in law the nurse.

You may be right, but at this point it's in the right's interest to push this meme (regardless of veracity) as another in the parade of horribles they predict resulting from HCR. Not outrageous like the "death panel" canard, but not yet verified.

And, at the risk of sounding cynical, there are hundreds of thousands of qualified doctors around the world who would probably love to practice in the US. This may ultimately be part of the solution. I'd hate to think of the US as the Yankees, "stealing" every other team's best players, but this already fills much of the need, and could to a greater extent in the future.

I agree it is anecdotal but there is plenty of evidence that there is going to be a shortage of physicians. It is already a reality in some specialties.

[Link: www.aamc.org...]

300 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:26:23am

re: #288 wozzablog

As in the singuilarly best in the world - they may well have good ones - but if a certain canadian parliamentarian wants to use his own money to go to who he wants to go to anywhere in the world - thats his right.

British people can do it, so can Americans if they choose.

Britain for example doesn't have the greatest knee surgeon in the world for a particular kind of operation for sportsmen - they go to Finland or Colorado.

In one of the European countries that still has a monarch (Netherlands, or Denmark, or something), a member of the royal family went to the wrong hospital. (They are assigned hospitals to go to when hurt, apparently.)

They apologized.

If the system you designed isn't good enough for you, why should it be good enough for everyone else?

301 Donna Ballard  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:26:36am

Time to go walk the furrbies, BBL! Keep Laughing Lizards!

302 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:26:56am

re: #283 SixDegrees

Or, Congress will suddenly notice the problem...and throw more Monopoly money at it in an attempt to solve it. Which sort of begs the question of the whole CBO analysis' accuracy, but that's already being revealed as a sham.

precisely...but I'm a NO guy apparently

303 darthstar  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:27:19am

re: #285 Oh no...Sand People!

You can buy anything in this world with money.

Except, of course, for true love and home grown tomatoes.

304 webevintage  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:27:41am

Guys, HC legislation is no longer a bill, it was signed into law about 1/2 hour ago.
Quite moving.
The House has already passed the reconcillation bill and the Senate, which only needs a majority, will vote on it later today.
My idiot Senator Blanche is going to vote no because she sucks.

305 Lateralis  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:27:56am

re: #275 NJDhockeyfan

Fox says the mics caught Joe Biden whispering to Obama “This is a big fucking deal, man.”

Heh.

Why I don't like big government. It is all about the ego and power.

306 garhighway  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:28:43am

re: #305 Lateralis

Why I don't like big government. It is all about the ego and power.

You're projecting.

307 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:28:45am

re: #296 Soap_Man

Homer: (about Mr. Burns) Well, there are some things in this world he can't buy with all his money.

Bart: Like what?

Homer: (long pause) A dinosaur.

Dinosaur skeleton to auction for $6-8m

For sale: 'Samson' - the bones of the third most complete T. Rex ever discovered will be sold in Las Vegas this week
A 66 million year-old collectible will be going under the hammer at the Las Vegas Strip on Saturday...

Auctioneer Bonhams & Butterfields is giving natural history buffs the chance to own "Samson", a fossilised female Tyrannosaurus Rex.

308 darthstar  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:29:21am

re: #304 webevintage

Guys, HC legislation is no longer a bill, it was signed into law about 1/2 hour ago.
Quite moving.
The House has already passed the reconcillation bill and the Senate, which only needs a majority, will vote on it later today.
My idiot Senator Blanche is going to vote no because she sucks.

Health Care...it's the law. :)

309 webevintage  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:29:22am

re: #275 NJDhockeyfan

Fox says the mics caught Joe Biden whispering to Obama “This is a big fucking deal, man.”

Heh.

It is indeed a big fucking deal.....
and yeah, I love hot mics that pick up pols talking like regular folks.

310 subsailor68  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:29:56am

re: #267 garhighway

It doesn't FORCE any individual to do anything. It says that one group of people get one tax treatment and a different group gets a different tax treatment. As the Code has done for a a very, very long time.

That's not exactly correct. Section 1530 (or close to that in the pdf file) does mandate that people purchase health insurance or pay a fine. (Granted, it does have limits for low income people, and includes provisions to create high-risk pools, credits, financial assistance, etc. for those folks.)

What is a bit different about this provision is that it directs people to purchase insurance, and it is designed to force folks to purchase from private insurance companies if they don't meet the low income provisions. This is what some people think may not pass constitutional muster with SCOTUS.

I did see your analogy above about energy credits, which is true of course, but a more complete analogy would be if the government, using the IRS as the enforcer, directed citizens to purchase energy-efficient appliances from a group of private companies who manufacture them, as opposed to creating tax incentives to encourage folks to do so.

311 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:29:58am

re: #300 EmmmieG

Generally Royals have set hospitals for security reasons - certainly in the UK, there will only be certain places with enough security etc for the protection sqaud to be satisfied.

I'll have a dig around for the specifics of that case.

I'm a Republican in my particular constitutional monarchy by the way.

312 cliffster  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:30:21am

re: #303 darthstar

Except, of course, for true love and home grown tomatoes.

fuck yeah!

313 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:30:33am

re: #305 Lateralis

and wall street is where fluffy bunnykins lives?

314 darthstar  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:30:35am

re: #305 Lateralis

Why I don't like big government. It is all about the ego and power.

Yes, but it IS a big fucking deal. And that has nothing to do with ego. President Obama has been very specific in repeatedly saying that this legislation wasn't about him, but about us. What's wrong with that?

315 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:31:11am

re: #305 Lateralis

Why I don't like big government. It is all about the ego and power.

Any sort of governance has ego and power elements in it.

Big, little and in between.

Human nature.

316 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:31:21am

re: #314 darthstar

he's one of those selfless egomaniacs...........

317 harrylook  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:32:13am

re: #170 Pacificlady

Yup. My PCP here in Mass. asked me to stop coming for physicals and only call if I have a problem. He's way too busy to be doing physicals, apparently. I feel lucky to even have a PCP, though. If you don't have one, good luck finding one.

318 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:32:15am

re: #314 darthstar

Yes, but it IS a big fucking deal. And that has nothing to do with ego. President Obama has been very specific in repeatedly saying that this legislation wasn't about him, but about us. What's wrong with that?

it's not true, if it's whats best for America....that's what's wrong...imo

319 darthstar  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:32:21am

re: #316 wozzablog

he's one of those selfless egomaniacs...

And I'm proud to have him as my President.

320 Soap_Man  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:32:32am

re: #307 NJDhockeyfan

Well, holy shit. I guess you are right.

321 webevintage  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:32:50am

An idiot AG on MSNBC just said to Matthews:
Well if you decided not to have insurance and you went to the emergency room you would pay your bill when you got it because that's the responsible kinda guy you are.

Ya think?
Maybe Chris would pay the damn bill because he could afford too.

and really I hope those AGs filing suit today enjoy wasting the taxpayers money.

322 Guanxi88  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:33:13am

re: #315 Jadespring

Any sort of governance has ego and power elements in it.

Big, little and in between.

Human nature.

Hell, it HAS to be there to make the damned thing work.

This was what Alfarabi noticed going on in Plato's Republic. The Platonic Socrates silences, but does not refute, the tyrannical Thrasymachus early on in the dialogue, and we hear no more from him until the Platonic Socrates, at the start of the conversation on how to frame the laws of the City in Speech, starts talking to Thrasymachus again, making him a "legislator" in the perfect city.

323 SixDegrees  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:33:48am

re: #289 palomino

It may indeed take that long, or even longer.

A couple of things though: first, fewer ER docs will be needed IF the previously uninsured stop using ERs as a first resort; those docs could then move to other areas.

Second, more and more routine work is being done by PAs, and the "pipeline" there is likely both faster and more flexible.

Finally, we can attract more doctors to immigrate if necessary. Even with a potentially less lucrative system, the US is a very attractive destination for people in the medical sciences. Already a huge number of our research scientists are foreign born.

All somewhat true. But the worldwide free market system, if anything, is extremely efficient at matching supply to demand. Any sudden surge in demand will cause shortages, and the same arguments already noted apply.

I mentioned the shorter timeframe for certain professions because I realize there is a drive to replace a lot of direct physician services with those provided by people with less training. The problem, however, is both the length and width of the pipe - there just aren't enough classroom seats, no matter how short you make the pipeline, to provide enough care, quickly or not.

I'm still trying to figure out what will happen with ERs. In our area, this "problem" of the uninsured flooding ERs was never that huge to begin with, and was solved locally many years ago by adding an "urgent care" clinic on next to the emergency room where people with minor cuts, bruises and even simple fractures are sent and treated for a fraction of the cost of what the full ER service would run.

There's also the statement I heard yesterday morning on BBC Radio - still unconfirmed, but troubling nonetheless - that EMTALA legislation requiring hospitals to provide emergency treatment without regard to the patient's ability to pay had been suspended or at least significantly reduced by the new HCR legislation. If true, yes, that would take a lot of the load off ERs, but for the several millions of people who will still be without coverage under the new bill, it may not be a result they expected.

324 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:34:08am

re: #319 darthstar

And I'm proud to have him as my President.

I don't have pride for politicians...what's up with that?...next you'll be on your knees worshiping them if you already don't

325 SixDegrees  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:34:56am

re: #299 Lateralis

I agree it is anecdotal but there is plenty of evidence that there is going to be a shortage of physicians. It is already a reality in some specialties.

[Link: www.aamc.org...]

I think shortages will be inevitable, and will probably persist for quite a long time. See above.

326 Lateralis  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:35:11am

re: #313 wozzablog

and wall street is where fluffy bunnykins lives?

I don't care about Wall Street. They sure in the heck are not forcing me to buy something with the threat of going to jail if I don't.

327 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:35:46am

re: #321 webevintage

An idiot AG on MSNBC just said to Matthews:
Well if you decided not to have insurance and you went to the emergency room you would pay your bill when you got it because that's the responsible kinda guy you are.

Ya think?
Maybe Chris would pay the damn bill because he could afford too.

and really I hope those AGs filing suit today enjoy wasting the taxpayers money.

what's new?...it's what govt does, like bribery...no sense getting bent out shape over one and not the other....wasting is a govt mandate

328 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:36:12am

re: #324 albusteve

Worshipping someone who says we should look after our neighbour?

Your right, thats crazy talk.

329 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:36:19am

re: #231 EmmmieG

Congratulations. You have just hit on one thing all lizards can agree on.

These people deserve their own special circle of hell for doing garbage like that.

Reminds me of this qutoe from the series Firefly:

"If you take sexual advantage of her, you're going to burn in a very special level of hell. A level they reserve for child molesters and people who talk at the theater."

330 Lateralis  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:36:36am

re: #315 Jadespring

Any sort of governance has ego and power elements in it.

Big, little and in between.

Human nature.

Smaller the better. Less control over my life.

331 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:38:12am

re: #325 SixDegrees

I think shortages will be inevitable, and will probably persist for quite a long time. See above.

I do not think shortages will be caused by overcrowding. I think they will be caused by price controls, which historically have always caused shortages.

332 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:38:49am

re: #328 wozzablog

Worshipping someone who says we should look after our neighbour?

Your right, thats crazy talk.

so when I say that, you worship me?

333 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:39:40am

re: #328 wozzablog

It's not being told we should look after our neighbors.

It's being told we must look after our neighbors...or else.

334 Jadespring  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:39:47am

re: #330 Lateralis

Smaller the better. Less control over my life.

That's an illusion. While people spend most of the time complaining about 'big government' as in national it's the smaller ones that effect you more directly on a day to day basic. Both public and private and private systems.

335 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:39:48am

re: #332 albusteve

heh.

336 darthstar  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:40:06am

re: #324 albusteve

I don't have pride for politicians...what's up with that?...next you'll be on your knees worshiping them if you already don't

Nah...I worship you, Steve. And there's nothing wrong with being proud of someone's actions.

337 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:41:42am

re: #333 EmmmieG

Turning up at an ER without insurance - if you could have afforded it - does your neighbour a great diservice.

338 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:41:56am

re: #298 SixDegrees

The minority party, by definition, can't "fail" in anything like the sense you're trying to impute.


They wasted countless millions of dollars opposing a bill which easily passed. Fail.

339 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:43:01am

re: #309 webevintage

It is indeed a big fucking deal...
and yeah, I love hot mics that pick up pols talking like regular folks.

Even better when they admit how they really feel. Peggy Noonan's slip about Sarah Palin, for example.

340 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:43:32am

re: #338 Killgore Trout

Amen.

341 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:43:54am

re: #337 wozzablog

Turning up at an ER without insurance - if you could have afforded it - does your neighbour a great diservice.

Only if you thereafter do not pay.

342 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:44:14am

re: #338 Killgore Trout

This was your idea of easily?

343 subsailor68  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:44:31am

re: #310 subsailor68

Correction on the section number I listed in 310. The sections to reference are 1501 Requirement to maintain minimum essential coverage, and 1502 Reporting of health insurance coverage.

344 albusteve  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:44:51am

re: #342 EmmmieG

This was your idea of easily?

piece 'o cake!....next!

345 Nervous Norvous  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:45:12am

re: #341 EmmmieG

Only if you thereafter do not pay.

Howzabout you can do without insurance, but you have to pay cash up front for any medical services, otherwise you suffer the consequences?

Wouldn't that be the right way to go if you're truly intent on people taking personal responsibility?

\

346 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:48:11am

re: #345 PT Barnum

I am trying to figure out how you go to this point from the previous posts, and I can't.

347 SixDegrees  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 9:51:52am

re: #338 Killgore Trout

They wasted countless millions of dollars opposing a bill which easily passed. Fail.

And their opposition, as a clear minority, was meaningless. The Dems are solely responsible for any delays, just as they are solely responsible for the bill's ultimate passage.

Sorry, but what you're trying to peddle is pure spin. If you wanna complain about waste, talk to the Democrats who couldn't muster themselves for well over a year.

348 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 10:15:18am

re: #10 Mad Al-Jaffee

How about Baghdad Bob?

Baghdad Bob was a man with a job to do. And he did it. Right up to the end.

You had to admire his determination, if not his journalistic accuracy.

349 jvic  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 10:40:24am

re: #310 subsailor68

re: #235 garhighway

The state's rights argument is utter nonsense. Those constitutional issues were settled a long time ago. The kind of regulation of insurance contemplated by the HCR bill is classic, down-the-middle-of-the-plate Commerce Clause stuff.

As is using the tax code to regulate behavior. Want more energy efficiency? Give a tax credit for those that spend money on it. Want home ownership to go up? Make mortgage interest deductible. You may not like one particular policy choice or another, but the pracatice of using the tax code for this purpose has been ruled on over and over and over again.

In that case I'm for getting a prompt SCOTUS ruling that will dispell subsailor68's concerns. Then the opposition's efforts can return to the political arena where they ideally belong.

Accordingly, I want to see the AG coalition move expeditiously, and not fly around the country burning taxpayers' money and creating publicity.

350 andres  Tue, Mar 23, 2010 10:51:38am

re: #283 SixDegrees

Or, Congress will suddenly notice the problem...and throw more Monopoly money at it in an attempt to solve it. Which sort of begs the question of the whole CBO analysis' accuracy, but that's already being revealed as a sham.

CBO analysis is trash, unless it supports my point. Isn't that right?

(FWIW, both sides used the CBO analysis this way. During the debate of this bill.)

351 seasoned  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 7:58:35pm

One of the ways to cut down on health care costs is to use nurse practitioners (NPs). These are masters, and now doctorate, prepared nurses with bachelor's degrees with several years experience before being admitted into a nurse practitioner program. NPs are trained to deal with 80% of health care needs that come into a primary care setting, are able to write prescriptions, and have as good, often better, outcomes than physicians. All that and they are more affordable.


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