Frum Fallout Continues

Politico’s Mike Allen has an interesting post about David Frum’s excommunication from the American Enterprise Institute; apparently Frum’s departure was ordered by the AEI’s deep pockets donors, who cannot stand criticism as the right wing slides ever deeper into an abyss of powerless rage and negativity.

EXCLUSIVE: David Frum told us last night that he believes his axing from his $100,000-a-year “resident scholar” gig at the conservative American Enterprise Institute was related to DONOR PRESSURE following his viral blog post arguing Republicans had suffered a devastating, generational “Waterloo” in their loss to President Obama on health reform. “There’s a lot about the story I don’t really understand,” Frum said from his iPhone. “But the core of the story is the kind of economic pressure that intellectual conservatives are under. AEI represents the best of the conservative world. [AEI President] Arthur Brooks is a brilliant man, and his books are fantastic. But the elite isn’t leading anymore. It’s trapped. Partly because of the desperate economic situation in the country, what were once the leading institutions of conservatism are constrained. I think Arthur took no pleasure in this. I think he was embarrassed. I think he would have avoided it if he possibly could, but he couldn’t.”

We talked at length afterward with an AEI official in an effort to get a specific response to Frum’s charge. But the group apparently doesn’t want to get into a back-and-forth with Frum, and stuck to this earlier statement from Brooks, blaming Frum for his departure: “David Frum is an original thinker and a friend to many at AEI. We are pleased to have welcomed him as a colleague for seven years, and his decision to leave in no way diminishes our respect for him.” Ask other AEI scholars how they felt about David’s mail and packages piling up outside his office. Frum, who will be 50 in June, had been on the payroll since leaving the Bush White House in 2003. He acknowledges he was very seldom at the office. But he maintains he developed and spread conservative ideas — AEI’s stated goal — with the 300,000 words a year that he writes for his blog, frumforum.com; his weekly columns for cnn.com, The Week, and the National Post of Canada; his biweekly offerings for TIME and American Public Media’s “Marketplace”; and his three TV and three radio appearances in a typical week. He also landed Canadian Finance Minister James Flaherty for an AEI retreat last month that included donors. Frum tells us that regardless of his dismay with the party, he’ll stay registered GOP.

This is what happens when any conservative tries to talk the right wing down from the ledge. It’s a pointless exercise, because they’re determined to jump.

Jump to bottom

161 comments

1 Soap_Man  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:17:40am

Frum wrote the best “what the GOP did wrong with HCR” article out there. I think I agreed with every point.

The GOP should be welcoming these sane, rational folks, not kicking them to the curb because they disobeyed the talking points.

2 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:18:20am

American conservatism had a chance to take a real step forward with the election of Obama; an opportunity to showcase exactly what the principles of limited government mean, and how they would help the average American more than receiving free* government handouts. Instead, they descended into a frothing rage more worthy of cavemen than conservatives. I am disappointed.

* = free from the standpoint that it’s paid for by everybody EXCEPT the beneficiary, of course.

3 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:19:29am
…”There’s a lot about the story I don’t really understand,” Frum said from his iPhone. “But the core of the story is the kind of economic pressure that intellectual conservatives are under…”

Blatant product placement. Apple is buying Politico content now?

4 albusteve  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:21:29am

join the ranks of the unemployed Dave….start surfing the want ads for pundits

5 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:23:01am

re: #3 cliffster

Blatant product placement. Apple is buying Politico content now?

I think the implication is it wasn’t a phone conversation, but rather some sort iPhone app like instant messaging or something?

6 albusteve  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:23:05am

re: #2 thedopefishlives

American conservatism had a chance to take a real step forward with the election of Obama; an opportunity to showcase exactly what the principles of limited government mean, and how they would help the average American more than receiving free* government handouts. Instead, they descended into a frothing rage more worthy of cavemen than conservatives. I am disappointed.

* = free from the standpoint that it’s paid for by everybody EXCEPT the beneficiary, of course.

politically, conservatism is probably dead…it’s a new world now, the next cycle may shed some light on who’s who

7 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:24:03am

Who are these donors?

8 Soap_Man  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:24:35am

re: #5 Joo-LiZ

I think the implication is it wasn’t a phone conversation, but rather some sort iPhone app like instant messaging or something?

Then they could have just said “Frum wrote” or “Frum said in a text message/e-mail” (It’s still an e-mail, even if it came from a phone instead of a computer.)

9 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:25:51am

re: #1 Soap_Man


Frum also wrote a very good, forwards-looking, “What the GOP can do to reform health care in a good way” article, too.

[Link: www.cnn.com…]

Throwing out criticism means you throw out opportunities to improve.

10 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:26:16am

re: #7 MandyManners

Who are these donors?

Cigarette-smoking Man

11 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:26:25am

re: #1 Soap_Man

Frum wrote the best “what the GOP did wrong with HCR” article out there. I think I agreed with every point.

The GOP should be welcoming these sane, rational folks, not kicking them to the curb because they disobeyed the talking points.

But that’s not what they’ll do. The populist herd is determined to storm the castle, and they’re going to try to do that regardless of logic or sense.

12 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:26:32am
Ask other AEI scholars how they felt about David’s mail and packages piling up outside his office. Frum, who will be 50 in June, had been on the payroll since leaving the Bush White House in 2003. He acknowledges he was very seldom at the office. But he maintains he developed and spread conservative ideas — AEI’s stated goal — with the 300,000 words a year that he writes for his blog, FrumForum.com; his weekly columns for CNN.com, The Week, and the National Post of Canada; his biweekly offerings for TIME and American Public Media’s “Marketplace”; and his three TV and three radio appearances in a typical week.

It has been reported that his salary was in the 6 figure range. If that’s true that works out to roughly $.30 a word which is a pretty sweet deal. If he was being paid by time, cnn, the week, and the national post of top of that for his articles we’re talking double. I just made $40 for this post and I do take credit cards.

13 lostlakehiker  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:28:33am

Winston Churchill spent quite some time in political exile. And after he saved Britain, he was sent packing again. But then, out of office, he coined the term Iron Curtain and was once again a leader, office or not.

Being a voice of reason is not as pointless an exercise as it may seem at the time.

Meanwhile, in breaking news, it seems an NK sub may have sunk an SK warship, with great loss of life.

Now what?

14 Summer Seale  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:29:46am

He was usin’ an iPhone?

He must be one of those techie libruls!

15 Soap_Man  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:30:01am

re: #11 Dark_Falcon

But that’s not what they’ll do. The populist herd is determined to storm the castle, and they’re going to try to do that regardless of logic or sense.

The GOP is acting like some kind of damn cult these days. It’s sad really. Although I am admittedly more liberal than you, I bet both of us would be easily dismissed as RINOs. That’s what they say when you say anything that could be construed as dissent.

16 albusteve  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:31:45am

re: #13 lostlakehiker

Winston Churchill spent quite some time in political exile. And after he saved Britain, he was sent packing again. But then, out of office, he coined the term Iron Curtain and was once again a leader, office or not.

Being a voice of reason is not as pointless an exercise as it may seem at the time.

Meanwhile, in breaking news, it seems an NK sub may have sunk an SK warship, with great loss of life.

Now what?

talk about for a couple of years….find ways to appease and buy off the Norks….send in Hilary!….stuff like that

17 Political Atheist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:33:17am

re: #13 lostlakehiker

I am really hoping that is a bad report, not a real attack.

18 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:33:18am

Forests and trees, folks. Good guys getting kicked out of questionable organizations is a good thing. Enough people get a clean break, and they start moving things rapidly instead of fighting like hell for every incremental change.

19 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:33:41am

re: #15 Soap_Man

The GOP is acting like some kind of damn cult these days. It’s sad really. Although I am admittedly more liberal than you, I bet both of us would be easily dismissed as RINOs. That’s what they say when you say anything that could be construed as dissent.

Concur. It’s not a good time. I don’t think populism is a bad things per say, but it’s being taken to a bad extreme on the right.

20 albusteve  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:34:19am

re: #15 Soap_Man

The GOP is acting like some kind of damn cult these days. It’s sad really. Although I am admittedly more liberal than you, I bet both of us would be easily dismissed as RINOs. That’s what they say when you say anything that could be construed as dissent.

govt at the federal level is a cult…people look to the feds for guidance, solutions to their problems, and to levi some degree of fairness for them…they have stooped to believe that if they feed this beast enough money, govt will make their life better…hahaha!

21 reine.de.tout  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:35:16am
This is what happens when any conservative tries to talk the right wing down from the ledge. It’s a pointless exercise, because they’re determined to jump.

Which is why, unlike Frum, I have distanced myself from the R party

22 fizzlogic  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:35:54am
23 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:37:25am

re: #22 trendsurfer

Here’s more from Bruce Bartlett.

Frum violated the gag order.

24 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:38:16am

Wars and rumors of war……

South Korean ship sinking, North attack suspected: report(WaPo)

S. Korean Navy ship sinking in Yellow Sea: officials
Yonhap News Agency

A South Korean Navy ship was sinking off the west coast near its maritime border with North Korea, officials here said Friday,
Officials also said South Korea fired a shot at an unidentified vessel toward the North.

The 1,500-ton ship carrying 104 crew members went down around 9:45 p.m. near a South Korean island in the Yellow Sea, prompting an emergency meeting of security-related Cabinet ministers.

Seoul’s Navy officials refused to give details, but said a South Korean vessel fired at a ship toward the North later in the evening, indicating possibilities of a possible torpedo attack from the North. Local residents reported having heard gunfire for about 10 minutes from 11 p.m.

“The ship appears to have begun sinking after an explosion at the rear of the ship,” the Navy said in a statement. “We have been unable to find the exact cause of the incident as of this moment.”

The Navy said it has rescued 58 crew members during an ongoing rescue operation, but fears some may have died.

North Korea has said in recent weeks it is bolstering its defense in response to joint South Korean-U.S. military drills that were held this month.

Shooting incidents have been common since the 1953 armistice but the loss of a sizable naval vessel and 40+ lives is unprecedented. The ship is still not identified, but 1500 tons and a crew of about 100 could indicate any of the following
Pohang class patrol vessel

26 mph  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:42:06am

Some additional context on the AEI would be helpful. Ostensibly, they aim to promote free markets and democracy across the world. I believe it was Frum’s argument that the American right could learn from Canada’s conservative party (i.e. accept socialized health as a reality) that essentially outlined views alternative AEI’s founding values — so of course the donors are not going to want to fund such views. In this case, it was Frum who changed publicly stated views, not the AEI.

I like David Frum and generally appreciate his opinions and exposure of the paleocon fringes of the Republican party…but in this case, respect the fact that the AEI is not necessarily trending fringe…..(unless, of course, you consider being against Obamacare to be fringe).

27 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:42:17am

re: #10 cliffster

Cigarette-smoking Man

Who?

I’ve looked all over the AEI site, as well as their most recent annual report and cannot find anything.

28 Political Atheist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:43:37am

South Korea’s Cheonan naval ship according to several news outlets.
[Link: news.globaltv.com…]

29 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:43:46am

re: #23 Killgore Trout

Frum violated the gag order.

He had signed a non-disclosure agreement?

30 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:45:56am

re: #28 Rightwingconspirator

South Korea’s Cheonan naval ship according to several news outlets.
[Link: news.globaltv.com…]

Sure enough, Pohang class, sinking already added at Wikipedia.

31 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:46:21am

re: #27 MandyManners

Who?

I’ve looked all over the AEI site, as well as their most recent annual report and cannot find anything.

It’s an X-Files reference.

32 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:46:28am

re: #28 Rightwingconspirator

South Korea’s Cheonan naval ship according to several news outlets.
[Link: news.globaltv.com…]

I’m not sure if L’il Kim is out of booze or drunk. But this isn’t good.

33 KingKenrod  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:47:55am

The large Democrat majorities and Dem president sealed the GOP’s fate on HCR. If they had played ball from the beginning, the likely result would be far more left, perhaps even approaching single player and definitely including the public option. The tea party movement and promotion of other illegitimate thoughts on HCR were very successful in turning the public - even independents and moderates - against the initial efforts of Democrats. If the GOP had played along, they still would not have achieved anything embodying their ideals of personal responsibility and limited government. Neither party stands up for those things anymore.

34 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:48:17am

re: #31 Dark_Falcon

It’s an X-Files reference.

That show creeped me out.

35 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:48:33am

re: #32 Cannadian Club Akbar

I’m not sure if L’il Kim is out of booze or drunk. But this isn’t good.

He’s on death’s door.

36 albusteve  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:48:33am

re: #30 Shiplord Kirel

Sure enough, Pohang class, sinking already added at Wikipedia.

interesting to say the least…maybe it’s time to hot on the Norks

37 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:48:54am

re: #34 MandyManners

That show creeped me out.

that’s the idea

38 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:49:14am

re: #26 mph


I like David Frum and generally appreciate his opinions and exposure of the paleocon fringes of the Republican party…but in this case, respect the fact that the AEI is not necessarily trending fringe…(unless, of course, you consider being against Obamacare to be fringe).


The problem is that many of the elements in the healthcare reform bill were Republican proposals. Once adopted into the bill Republicans then decided to oppose the ideas they once endorsed simply because Obama accepted them, not because they were bad ideas. The problem is that the Republicans are no longer interested in ideas at all, they just want to oppose everything. That’s not smart policy and it’s not good for the country.

39 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:49:21am

re: #32 Cannadian Club Akbar

I’m not sure if L’il Kim is out of booze or drunk. But this isn’t good.

I’ve mentioned this before, you guys have no idea the level of crazy shit that has been going on for decades over there. N. Korea is scary.

40 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:49:33am

Kind of said that they “killed the messenger” for doing nothing but trying to tell them the truth. :(

In a way it completely proves his point, the GOP has been painted into a corner by their own extreme rhetoric. AEI could not have someone who sympathized with the nazi, facist, socialist, marxist, baby killing, anti-christ, on their staff, their contributers just wouldn’t stand for it.

Of course nothing he said was in sympathy with Obama or the Dems, he just said that the Repubs were pursuing a flawed strategy. The anger and hyperbolic rhetoric fueled by it seems to be making them too blind to tell the difference. Which by the way is exactly what he said in his recent articles…

41 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:50:34am

re: #29 MandyManners

He had signed a non-disclosure agreement?

Probably not but the management told their pundits to keep quiet unless they opposed healthcare reform. He decided to not comply.

42 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:51:04am

In the GOP, it’s the party line or the firing squad. And still, somehow it’s the Dems who are a bunch of lock-step Stalinists…

43 Soap_Man  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:51:19am

re: #33 KingKenrod

The large Democrat majorities and Dem president sealed the GOP’s fate on HCR. If they had played ball from the beginning, the likely result would be far more left, perhaps even approaching single player and definitely including the public option. The tea party movement and promotion of other illegitimate thoughts on HCR were very successful in turning the public - even independents and moderates - against the initial efforts of Democrats. If the GOP had played along, they still would not have achieved anything embodying their ideals of personal responsibility and limited government. Neither party stands up for those things anymore.

I don’t think I agree. I think Obama would have loved (at least at first) to get GOP votes, even if it meant moving the bill to the center. He benefits much more politically with a truly bipartisan bill that gets 70-something votes than all very visible arm-twisting and parliamentary dancing he had to do to get it passed.

He would have been better off with at least a few GOP votes. He knew that.

44 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:51:20am
45 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:51:30am

re: #37 cliffster

that’s the idea

I rund from creepies.

46 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:52:01am

The inmates are in charge of the asylum now. John McCain and his albatross are having a picnic today and another one tomorrow. It’ll be interesting to see if she spouts any nonsense about watering the tree of liberty.

47 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:52:10am

re: #41 Killgore Trout

Probably not but the management told their pundits to keep quiet unless they opposed healthcare reform. He decided to not comply.

This consequence sucks.

48 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:52:19am

re: #39 RogueOne

I’ve mentioned this before, you guys have no idea the level of crazy shit that has been going on for decades over there. N. Korea is scary.

True, but if the actually torpedoed an ROK patrol ship, then that will really put the match to the gasoline. The South cannot ignore this, and the Norks don’t take even harsh statements well. This could easily spiral into a war.

49 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:53:17am

re: #45 MandyManners

I rund from creepies.

I want to believe

50 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:53:50am

re: #46 darthstar

The inmates are in charge of the asylum now. John McCain and his albatross are having a picnic today and another one tomorrow. It’ll be interesting to see if she spouts any nonsense about watering the tree of liberty.

Not being snarky but I have to ask, what is your deal with McCain? He’s not my favorite person on the planet (McCain-Feingold) but you seem to have something bordering on the personal with him? Just asking because I’m curious.

51 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:54:14am

re: #49 cliffster

I want to believe

George Norrie, is that you?
/

52 okonkolo  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:55:02am

The symbolic moment of change stuck in my mind is that first GOP rep. on camera who was confronted with a birther waving a birth certificate and the crowd cheering them on. I don’t remember who the Rep. was, but the guy looked totally trapped; he didn’t buy that the President of the United States of America was, in fact, not an American, but he was stunned that the vast majority of his constituents that showed up that night were, and he had to politely placate them in some way. and that in a nutshell is like what the whole GOP is facing. Try to be rational, make bills better, not chase fantasies about conspiracies of fringe theories about the 10th amendment etc., and they’ll run you out. Pundits/writers like David Brooks, George Will, Bartlett and Frum don’t have to run for office or raise campaign money, so they can continue to speak out (well maybe not with sponsorship), but boy, go against the FOX/Tea Party flow at your own risk. Of course, if you spend your time apologizing to Rush Limbaugh and placating the Tea party, you’ve pretty much made your bed. Michael Steele’s “cow on the train tracks” seems pretty appropriate now.

53 KingKenrod  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:55:13am

re: #38 Killgore Trout

The problem is that many of the elements in the healthcare reform bill were Republican proposals. Once adopted into the bill Republicans then decided to oppose the ideas they once endorsed simply because Obama accepted them, not because they were bad ideas. The problem is that the Republicans are no longer interested in ideas at all, they just want to oppose everything. That’s not smart policy and it’s not good for the country.

Well, you’re comparing different proposals under different climates. The GOP is always going to propose something right of what the Dems offer simply as a starting point for negotiations. The Dems always offer something to the left. In the past 2 decades the HCR debate has shifted from universal single payer (HillaryCare) to public option and now to just private market insurance reform. The GOP is actually dragging the debate to the right. Dem failures in the face of public opposition and GOP opposition have done that.

54 albusteve  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:55:21am

re: #48 Dark_Falcon

True, but if the actually torpedoed an ROK patrol ship, then that will really put the match to the gasoline. The South cannot ignore this, and the Norks don’t take even harsh statements well. This could easily spiral into a war.

did I see somewhere a blub from the North threatening a nuclear strike?…or did my brain make that up?…I can’t find it now

55 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:55:34am

re: #44 Shiplord Kirel

Jitters at Business Insider

CONFIRMED: South Korean Ship Goes Down, Gold Soaring

OMG!1 GLENN BECK WAS RIGHT!11 BUY GOLD!!11

/Must I?

56 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:56:16am

re: #48 Dark_Falcon

True, but if the actually torpedoed an ROK patrol ship, then that will really put the match to the gasoline. The South cannot ignore this, and the Norks don’t take even harsh statements well. This could easily spiral into a war.

It could, but the south won’t respond with a tit-for-tat military maneuver. They don’t have any desire to give the North any reason to respond militarily. My guess is they’ll cut off the flow of money and food which really only hurts an already desperately poor NK citizenry.

57 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:56:46am

Other than “everyfuckingbody” who has the most to gain by stabilizing the Koreas?

Who has the most to gain if they fight?

58 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:57:07am

re: #54 albusteve

did I see somewhere a blub from the North threatening a nuclear strike?…or did my brain make that up?…I can’t find it now

It’s in here. About half way down.
[Link: news.sky.com…]

59 albusteve  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:57:47am

re: #57 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Other than “everyfuckingbody” who has the most to gain by stabilizing the Koreas?

Who has the most to gain if they fight?

in the long run probably the citizens of the North

60 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:57:49am

re: #57 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Other than “everyfuckingbody” who has the most to gain by stabilizing the Koreas?

Who has the most to gain if they fight?

No one. This is all lose/lose.

61 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:58:08am

re: #57 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Other than “everyfuckingbody” who has the most to gain by stabilizing the Koreas?

Who has the most to gain if they fight?

Whoever gets the contract for the building materials after the war is over.

62 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:58:35am

North Korea’s military threatened South Korea and the United States on Friday with “unprecedented nuclear strikes” as it expressed anger over a report the two countries plan to prepare for possible instability in the totalitarian country, a scenario it dismissed as a “pipe dream.”

The North routinely issues such warnings. Diplomats in South Korea and the US have repeatedly called on Pyongyang to return to international negotiations aimed at ending its nuclear programs.

“Those who seek to bring down the system in the (North), whether they play a main role or a passive role, will fall victim to the unprecedented nuclear strikes of the invincible army,” North Korea’s military said in comments carried by the official Korean Central News Agency.

The North, believed to have enough weaponized plutonium for at least half a dozen atomic bombs, conducted its second atomic test last year, drawing tighter UN sanctions.

SNIP

63 jamesfirecat  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:58:39am

re: #42 negativ

In the GOP, it’s the party line or the firing squad. And still, somehow it’s the Dems who are a bunch of lock-step Stalinists…

You missed a good chance to turn a phrase there “If you don’t toe the party line you end up on the firing line…” Or something like that….

Sorry I’m an “author” (of sorts) so I hate to see a good chance for a clever phrase go to waste.

64 KingKenrod  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:59:11am

re: #43 Soap_Man

I don’t think I agree. I think Obama would have loved (at least at first) to get GOP votes, even if it meant moving the bill to the center. He benefits much more politically with a truly bipartisan bill that gets 70-something votes than all very visible arm-twisting and parliamentary dancing he had to do to get it passed.

He would have been better off with at least a few GOP votes. He knew that.

I agree with that. But it was Obama’s left wing, embodied by Pelosi, that prevented a truly centrist outcome. Frankly, Obama got lucky that the Senate plan passed and the House was forced to vote on the more moderate Senate plan verbatim. Pelosi was still trying to get the public option up until the last week (and may still yet).

65 albusteve  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:59:20am

re: #58 Cannadian Club Akbar

It’s in here. About half way down.
[Link: news.sky.com…]

thanks

66 Slap  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:59:21am

re: #50 RogueOne

I’m guessing it’s the re-palling around with Carbou you-know-who….

67 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:59:47am

re: #50 RogueOne

Not being snarky but I have to ask, what is your deal with McCain? He’s not my favorite person on the planet (McCain-Feingold) but you seem to have something bordering on the personal with him? Just asking because I’m curious.

I used to respect him, but after his 2008 campaign and demonstrating that “Country First” was merely a campaign slogan, and not something he actually believed in (based on his actions since losing the election), I put him on the same level of respectability as Michele Bachmann, Glenn Beck, and Sarah Palin. He’s an opportunist who will say anything go get people to pay attention to him. Had he continued to follow his campaign promises of ‘reaching across the aisle’ and been a voice of reason in the GOP, I could have forgiven him for hoisting Palin onto the national stage. Instead, he’s become a mockery of the ‘maverick’ image he used to take pride in selling.

68 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:00:04am

re: #55 Dark_Falcon

OMG!1 GLENN BECK WAS RIGHT!11 BUY GOLD!!11

/Must I?

By an odd coincidence it is the sheep-shearing season.

69 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:00:14am

re: #56 RogueOne

It could, but the south won’t respond with a tit-for-tat military maneuver. They don’t have any desire to give the North any reason to respond militarily. My guess is they’ll cut off the flow of money and food which really only hurts an already desperately poor NK citizenry.

Still, the Norks aren’t going to take it well. But you’re right that the South will almost have to cut off aid.

70 Slap  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:00:31am

re: #66 Slap

Ahem.

Caribou.

PIMF. (Evidently in dumb putz mode this AM….)

71 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:00:42am

How many American troops are in South Korea? 30K?

72 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:00:51am

I’m kinda ambivalent about Frum. I mean, it’s not like he wasn’t one of the torch bearers up until recently. At the same time, I recognize everyone has the ability to learn and grow from their past. From may be in the midst of his own conversion process. But one of the things that struck me about his objections to HCR were about the tactical methods being used, rather than being critical of scorched earth tactics as a strategic vision and grand strategy.

At some point he may become a “DFH”. but he carried the water for a lot of stuff that I think was damaging to the country. After all, he was one of the people that created the scorched earth tactical let’s win news cycles and who cares about the long term health of the country methods. AKA the ‘who cares if it damages America so long as we keep/get back into power’ method of winning elections.

73 unsavoryagent  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:00:54am

re: #21 reine.de.tout

Which is why, unlike Frum, I have distanced myself from the R party

Had Enough? Vote Democrat.

74 jamesfirecat  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:01:40am

re: #57 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Other than “everyfuckingbody” who has the most to gain by stabilizing the Koreas?

Who has the most to gain if they fight?

Could be people who expect the already stretched US army to go in swinging on the side of the South to draw them away from the “wars” we’ve got going in the Middle East.

Doesn’t have to be, but could be….

75 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:02:17am

Reading this just disappoints me even further. I don’t really agree with Frum on foreign or domestic policy. But at the very least I respected his recent attempts to be an honest broker and not get caught up in breathless wingnut-baiting like the rest of the GOP. Now that he’s officially been excommunicated I can’t imagine there will be many more pundits willing to stick their necks out and lose their cushy jobs in the name of rationality.

76 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:02:24am

re: #4 albusteve

join the ranks of the unemployed Dave…start surfing the want ads for pundits

Well, he does have three other writing/talking on TV gigs left. It isn’t as if he is actually left without any income.

77 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:02:24am

re: #73 unsavoryagent

Had Enough? Vote Democrat.

Uh… that won’t help me.

78 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:02:39am

re: #67 darthstar

I used to respect him, but after his 2008 campaign and demonstrating that “Country First” was merely a campaign slogan, and not something he actually believed in (based on his actions since losing the election), I put him on the same level of respectability as Michele Bachmann, Glenn Beck, and Sarah Palin. He’s an opportunist who will say anything go get people to pay attention to him. Had he continued to follow his campaign promises of ‘reaching across the aisle’ and been a voice of reason in the GOP, I could have forgiven him for hoisting Palin onto the national stage. Instead, he’s become a mockery of the ‘maverick’ image he used to take pride in selling.

Thanks, like I said I was just curious. You go after him like he owes you money sometimes.//

I slightly disagree. The only good thing about McCain is he’s a tightwad. IMO, that’s what has kept him from crossing the aisle more since Obama took office. Plus, you’re right, he is an opportunist. During the Bush years he’d get glowing press for his Maverick image, now not so much.

79 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:02:42am

re: #74 jamesfirecat

Could be people who expect the already stretched US army to go in swinging on the side of the South to draw them away from the “wars” we’ve got going in the Middle East.

Doesn’t have to be, but could be…

Would China send troops to help the Norks? Thoughts?

80 JoyousMN  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:03:06am

re: #20 albusteve

This always seems to be the basic dividing line between liberals and conservatives. Libs do believe that government can make a difference in peoples live and makes them better, cons do not. I have conversation after conversation with people on both sides and this is generally the point we get to and it’s hard to go further.

As a liberal, I think that government is us:We the people. It is the way we as a society organize and pool our resources to do work for the “common good.” Conservatives seem to mistrust that government can do anything right and want a more free market approach to our problems. To simplify and generalize: Libs want to fix things with a new government program and cons want government to stay out and let a private enterprise take control.

When it’s working well I think this divide serves all of us, but right now it seems so difficult to even have a sane conversation about our differences and I don’t know how we can work together when for the most part, we are just talking past each other.

81 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:03:08am

re: #71 Cannadian Club Akbar

How many American troops are in South Korea? 30K?

US Forces Korea

Major components of the force include the Eighth United States Army, the Seventh Air Force and U.S. Naval Forces Korea.

* Army: 19,755
* Navy: 274
* Air Force: 8,815
* Marines: 242
* Mandated of Strength: 28,500[1]

The current commander of United States Forces Korea is General Walter L. Sharp, United States Army.

82 unsavoryagent  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:03:24am

re: #79 Cannadian Club Akbar

Nope. They’d be glad to annex it though. Mark my words.

83 jamesfirecat  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:03:44am

re: #73 unsavoryagent

Had Enough? Vote Democrat.

Your kids will think you’re cool again!

84 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:04:39am

re: #69 Dark_Falcon

Still, the Norks aren’t going to take it well. But you’re right that the South will almost have to cut off aid.

Which will be kind of ironic. Whenever the North runs low on food/money they shoot off a missile or ramp up the rhetoric. This time, they’ve crossed the line. The South just can’t pay them off after they’ve taken out on of their ships.

85 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:04:57am

re: #79 Cannadian Club Akbar

Not likely. China’s biggest trading partner is the US - they aren’t going to mess that relationship up over North Korea unlike the situation in the runup to the Korean War. China has quite a bit to lose with the North Koreans agitating for conflict. They want to keep the North from engaging in a mass exodus to the South or into China’s mainland. But just how much leverage the Chinese have over the regime in Pyongyang is uncertain.

86 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:05:13am

re: #73 unsavoryagent

Had Enough? Vote Democrat.

Because that’s worked out well.

87 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:05:27am

re: #78 RogueOne

Thanks, like I said I was just curious. You go after him like he owes you money sometimes.//

I slightly disagree. The only good thing about McCain is he’s a tightwad. IMO, that’s what has kept him from crossing the aisle more since Obama took office. Plus, you’re right, he is an opportunist. During the Bush years he’d get glowing press for his Maverick image, now not so much.

If he’d been a maverick on Health Care, and argued for Republicans to work with the Democrats (who, you have to admit, spent a year trying to get them to agree to anything, and made tons of concessions for votes that never came), this bill would have gotten much more support and been better legislation. It’s called leadership. He didn’t demonstrate any of it.

88 Soap_Man  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:05:41am

re: #73 unsavoryagent

Had Enough? Vote Democrat.

I’ve had enough of them too.

*paging Ojoe*

89 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:06:03am

OT: From the WaPo’s profile of “militiaman” Mike Vanderboegh, the lunatic encouraging violence against Democratic official’s offices.

“The federal government should not have the ability to command us to buy something that it decides we should buy,” Vanderboegh said. The government, he added, has “absolutely no idea the number of alienated who feel that their backs are to the wall are out here … who are not only willing to resist this law to the very end of their lives, but are armed and are capable of making such resistance possible and perhaps even initiating a civil war.”

SNIP

Vanderboegh said he once worked as a warehouse manager but now lives on government disability checks. He said he receives $1,300 a month because of his congestive heart failure, diabetes and hypertension.

What an unbelievable fucking asshole this guy is.

90 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:06:05am

re: #79 Cannadian Club Akbar

Would China send troops to help the Norks? Thoughts?

They have before.

91 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:06:25am

re: #89 drcordell

Here is the link, forgot to add it.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com…]

92 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:06:32am

re: #88 Soap_Man

I’ve had enough of them too.

*paging Ojoe*

I’m surprised his radar isn’t going off.:)

93 albusteve  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:06:38am

re: #86 RogueOne

Because that’s worked out well.

Friday!….today I think I’ll….convert to Islam!

94 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:07:06am

re: #82 unsavoryagent

The Chinese wouldn’t want to annex the North because the North has so utterly decimated the country that there’s no infrastructure to speak of, no real economy, and it’s a bass-ackward country by any measure. They’ll do what they can to keep the exodus of North Koreans refugees from heading in their direction…

95 albusteve  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:07:08am

re: #90 MandyManners

They have before.

and got slaughtered in droves

96 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:07:08am

re: #87 darthstar

If he’d been a maverick on Health Care, and argued for Republicans to work with the Democrats (who, you have to admit, spent a year trying to get them to agree to anything, and made tons of concessions for votes that never came), this bill would have gotten much more support and been better legislation. It’s called leadership. He didn’t demonstrate any of it.

We’re on different sides of that issue. My view is if they couldn’t get the Maine republicans on board then they weren’t trying very hard.

97 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:07:17am

OT:
BREAKING- Two IDF soldiers killed in Gaza.

AP

JERUSALEM – The Israeli military says two soldiers have been killed in an exchange of fire with militants who were planting explosives along the security fence in the southern Gaza Strip.
The military says two other soldiers were wounded and evacuated to a hospital.
It says the soldiers opened fire on the militants, killing two of them.
The military says it “holds Hamas as solely responsible for maintaining peace and quiet in the Gaza Strip.”
Friday’s violence was some of the worst in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip since Israel’s military offensive there more than a year ago.

JPost

The IDF was using helicopters and mortar fire against the Palestinians, who reportedly belong to the Jaljalat, an extremist al-Qaida inspired group.

The group is not affiliated with Hamas.

But later on Friday evening, the Hamas Website said the group’s gunmen were involved — a departure from the Islamic terror group’s tendency over the past year to avoid confrontation with Israeli forces.

Hamas spokesman Abu Obeida told Hamas radio that IDF forces “fell into an ambush” set by Hamas terrorists east of Khan Younis. He did not elaborate. He said IDF troops entered 500 meters into Gaza “but our men preempted them.”

He also said the action was taken in revenge to the killing of Hamas official Mahmoud Al-Mabhouh, which Hamas pinned on Israel.

Islamic Jihad also claimed responsibility for the attack, saying that the attack was intended to kidnap a soldier.

Is it just me, or are things getting really bad.
A Thai worker killed by a Kassam.

A soldier killed in a friendly fire incident this past week while intercepting 3 infiltrators crossing out of Gaza.

Two killed now in clashes on the border with Gaza.

The rioting throughout the West Bank/Jerusalem.
4 Palestinians killed in these protests. 2 under suspicious circumstances, 2 after attacking soldiers with pitchforks and a broken bottle.

Things are definitely heating up for the worse.

98 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:07:35am

re: #79 Cannadian Club Akbar

Would China send troops to help the Norks? Thoughts?

No. They would threaten and push, but if we don’t start a fight, China won’t enter one. They don’t want to lose their export market.

99 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:07:53am

re: #89 drcordell

Vanderboegh said he once worked as a warehouse manager but now lives on government disability checks. He said he receives $1,300 a month because of his congestive heart failure, diabetes and hypertension.


Socialism!

100 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:07:55am

re: #86 RogueOne

Because that’s worked out well.

$2,035,589,608,607 since inauguration

101 Political Atheist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:08:12am
102 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:08:37am

re: #93 albusteve

Friday!…today I think I’ll…convert to Islam!

I used to threaten to become Chicana if the Jewish community didn’t stop bugging me.

Got thoroughly dressed down for that one by a particularly self-righteous moonbat.

103 albusteve  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:08:47am

re: #94 lawhawk

The Chinese wouldn’t want to annex the North because the North has so utterly decimated the country that there’s no infrastructure to speak of, no real economy, and it’s a bass-ackward country by any measure. They’ll do what they can to keep the exodus of North Koreans refugees from heading in their direction…

ultimately the country will become reunited…the North is the South’s problem, they will inherit that mess

104 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:08:59am

re: #101 Rightwingconspirator

That’s an article from 2003. Our disposition of forces is significantly different now…

105 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:09:13am

re: #89 drcordell

Well. I guess there are at least some federal bureaucrats he doesn’t want to target.

106 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:09:21am
107 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:09:46am

re: #103 albusteve

ultimately the country will become reunited…the North is the South’s problem, they will inherit that mess

It will end up like the E/W Berlin problem, only much, much worse.

108 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:10:04am

re: #104 lawhawk

That’s an article from 2003. Our disposition of forces is significantly different now…

Didn’t we just ship a bunch of bombs to Diego Garcia?

109 Political Atheist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:10:33am

re: #104 lawhawk

I never saw where we withdrew those bombers. I just guess we have a significant presence there since the atom bomb tests. All very classified I suppose.

110 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:11:10am

re: #91 drcordell

Here is the link, forgot to add it.

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com…]

Here’s another interesting detail…..

Born in Michigan and raised in Ohio, Vanderboegh said he was not always a libertarian. He once was active in the Young Socialist Alliance and the Progressive Labor Party. “In my youth, I was a communist,” he said. But in the mid-1970s, Vanderboegh read Friedrich von Hayek’s “The Road to Serfdom,” among other books, and had an epiphany.


That’s why the Tea Parties behave so much like the moonbats did a few years ago. In many cases they are being led by the exact same people.

111 JoyousMN  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:11:50am

re: #96 RogueOne

I don’t know Rogue, at some point it seemed liked the leadership and the threats from the tea party just shut down ANY cross-party lines support. I don’t think you can point to no votes from Mainers as being evidence of anything but that.

112 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:11:58am

re: #95 albusteve

and got slaughtered in droves

Sticking one’s nose into the wrong place can cause that.

113 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:13:06am

re: #108 Cannadian Club Akbar

Didn’t we just ship a bunch of bombs to Diego Garcia?

Yep.

114 albusteve  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:13:27am

re: #102 SanFranciscoZionist

I used to threaten to become Chicana if the Jewish community didn’t stop bugging me.

Got thoroughly dressed down for that one by a particularly self-righteous moonbat.

well yeah…you have to stay in the corral…potato heads like me just don’t “convert”…I can’t imagine what I’d convert to, maybe something unspeakable

115 lostlakehiker  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:14:47am

re: #57 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Other than “everyfuckingbody” who has the most to gain by stabilizing the Koreas?

Who has the most to gain if they fight?

If they fight?
Iran.

Iran and NK are military allies, but not friends. Iran has every reason to be quite willing to fight to the last godless atheistic kuffar North Korean. The more pork-eating alcohol drinking South Koreans and Great Satans die defending the south, the better, from the point of view of Iran. It’s a win-win.

This is assuming that Iran has already got all the useful help it’s going to get from NK on the matter of nuclear weapon and missile design.

But how much leverage does Iran have here, anyhow? Why would NK allow racially inferior hairy impure types like the Iranians influence the destiny of the Perfect Kingdom? More likely, the wheels are coming off in NK with the Dear Leader dying of self-inflicted alcohol poisoning and no clear succession. In such troubled waters, many ambitious officers will fish.

116 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:15:00am

Gotta run. Work beckons.

117 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:15:34am

re: #116 Cannadian Club Akbar

Gotta run. Work beckons.

Watch out for hot grease!

118 albusteve  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:16:58am

re: #112 MandyManners

Sticking one’s nose into the wrong place can cause that.

not saying it wasn’t costly to US troops, and it did force the only retreat in Marine Corp history….but the Chicoms got cut up pretty bad

119 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:17:02am

re: #109 Rightwingconspirator

The US is actually expanding US UAV facilities at Guam’s Anderson AFB. Also, US forces currently stationed in Okinawa will be relocated to Guam.

It also is gearing up to fully host an entire range of US military capabilities, including F-22s, B-2 and a sub base.

120 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:17:12am

re: #111 JoyousMN

I don’t know Rogue, at some point it seemed liked the leadership and the threats from the tea party just shut down ANY cross-party lines support. I don’t think you can point to no votes from Mainers as being evidence of anything but that.

They’re the two most liberal republicans holding office in 2 seats that are entirely safe.. They’ve voted for every big ticket item to come down the road which, IMO, means those were 2 easy votes for the dems on this one. They’ve been the lone repub votes before so it seems to me the dems weren’t trying all that hard to get repubs to switch sides. The Dems wanted to own this and they do.

121 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:17:48am

re: #114 albusteve

well yeah…you have to stay in the corral…potato heads like me just don’t “convert”…I can’t imagine what I’d convert to, maybe something unspeakable

Someone already offered to take you into the democrat fold, you passed.

122 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:18:42am

re: #118 albusteve

not saying it wasn’t costly to US troops, and it did force the only retreat in Marine Corp history…but the Chicoms got cut up pretty bad

Thanks to WWII and Viet Nam, it tends to be the “forgotten” war.

123 albusteve  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:20:29am

re: #121 RogueOne

Someone already offered to take you into the democrat fold, you passed.

A DONK!
I’d rather eat lint
I don’t join parties….I despise them all with equal enthusiasm

124 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:20:38am

re: #120 RogueOne

They’re the two most liberal republicans holding office in 2 seats that are entirely safe.. They’ve voted for every big ticket item to come down the road which, IMO, means those were 2 easy votes for the dems on this one. They’ve been the lone repub votes before so it seems to me the dems weren’t trying all that hard to get repubs to switch sides. The Dems wanted to own this and they do.

You’re kidding right? The Dems did everything they could to avoid completely owning this. They stripped out the public option and moderated so much of the bill in order to try and woo a single Republican vote.

125 albusteve  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:23:06am

re: #122 MandyManners

Thanks to WWII and Viet Nam, it tends to be the “forgotten” war.

my dear uncle, my dad’s older brother won the Distinguished Flying Cross over there in an F-86…his complete service record including that citation is not five feet from where I sit….I have not forgotten

126 JoyousMN  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:23:20am

re: #124 drcordell

Rogue, I have to agree with doc. The Dems were desperate to get an R. Mitch McConnell has bragged about party discipline, (I don’t ahve a link handy…I’ll try to find one) and I just don’t think there was ANY R who was going to buck party and tea.

127 jamesfirecat  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:23:42am

re: #103 albusteve

ultimately the country will become reunited…the North is the South’s problem, they will inherit that mess

At which point they can resolve their difference’s peacefully through Starcraft matches… I hear Starcraft 2 is comming out, so no better time to get in on it!

128 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:23:56am

Here’s a great compilation of the RomneyBot shilling for individual insurance mandates. This must have been when he had his 2.0 software loaded up, not the current 3.0 software he’s running on now.

129 albusteve  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:24:15am

re: #124 drcordell

You’re kidding right? The Dems did everything they could to avoid completely owning this. They stripped out the public option and moderated so much of the bill in order to try and woo a single Republican vote.

that’s because it’s a bad bill and they know it..of course you can make it far more complicated if you want

130 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:25:16am

re: #129 albusteve

that’s because it’s a bad bill and they know it..of course you can make it far more complicated if you want

Yeah they know it’s so awful they all voted to pass it…

131 albusteve  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:25:45am

re: #127 jamesfirecat

At which point they can resolve their difference’s peacefully through Starcraft matches… I hear Starcraft 2 is comming out, so no better time to get in on it!

they are going to need the corn we raise for ethanol….whoops!

132 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:26:54am

re: #126 JoyousMN

Rogue, I have to agree with doc. The Dems were desperate to get an R. Mitch McConnell has bragged about party discipline, (I don’t ahve a link handy…I’ll try to find one) and I just don’t think there was ANY R who was going to buck party and tea.

Exactly. Which is why I thought it was ridiculous in the first place that they even attempted to solicit a GOP vote. It was clear from the get-go that nobody from the Republican side was going to cross the aisle and support HCR, even if Obama put in a provision that rounded up trial lawyers and sent them to FEMA camps.

133 reidr  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:27:35am

re: #90 MandyManners

They have before.

The world’s changed a bit since then. I’d say that unless Norkland (had never heard “Nork” before) was invaded unilaterally, the probability is about 0%.

134 JoyousMN  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:28:03am

re: #129 albusteve

This goes back to my post to your earlier. I call it the great divide. Libs think gov programs can and do help people, cons don’t. I don’t think there is anything I can say to you will change this dynamic.

But the point at hand is that there is something to the fact that two moderate R’s didn’t support healthcare. Your post actually confirms mine thought:there was NOTHING the Dems could put into the bill and get a R vote.

135 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:28:23am

re: #124 drcordell

You’re kidding right? The Dems did everything they could to avoid completely owning this. They stripped out the public option and moderated so much of the bill in order to try and woo a single Republican vote.

No, they didn’t. Their hand was forced thanks to Mr. Brown winning his election. They knew they didn’t have the votes they needed to get anything additional passed so they went with what they had. They’ve already admitted it didn’t cover everything they wanted but they’ll continue to work to get the rest of their goody-bag passed piecemeal.

This bill is entirely on the dem side of the aisle, bought and paid for by special interest groups. Every time you hear the president say the Pharma lobby or the Insurance lobby is pissed about this bill I hope you know that’s a big-ass lie.

136 reidr  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:29:07am

re: #99 Killgore Trout

Socialism!

*mumble*Gotta love it…*/mumble*

137 JoyousMN  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:29:37am

re: #135 RogueOne

No. We’re talking about the bill that was voted on and passed by the Senate in December.

138 RogueOne  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:30:14am

re: #126 JoyousMN

Rogue, I have to agree with doc. The Dems were desperate to get an R. Mitch McConnell has bragged about party discipline, (I don’t ahve a link handy…I’ll try to find one) and I just don’t think there was ANY R who was going to buck party and tea.

They could have had at least some republican support. They wanted this as close to all or nothing as they could get. They worked this just like the stimulus plan except on this one they don’t mind being the only votes. They’re proud of it, don’t deny them their right to claim credit for this all by themselves.

139 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:30:46am

re: #125 albusteve

my dear uncle, my dad’s older brother won the Distinguished Flying Cross over there in an F-86…his complete service record including that citation is not five feet from where I sit…I have not forgotten

I’ve an uncle who served over there but, the majority of my relatives are/were WWI, WWII or Viet Nam vets.

140 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:30:47am

re: #135 RogueOne

I heard a democrat interviewed on Sunday, saying that the Republicans oppose the bill because they are beholden to health insurance companies. Then, less than a minute later, he underscored that it was not a government takeover, because they are sending all the business to the insurance companies.” I don’t think most democrats even realize they are lying when they lie.

141 jamesfirecat  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:32:28am

re: #140 cliffster

I heard a democrat interviewed on Sunday, saying that the Republicans oppose the bill because they are beholden to health insurance companies. Then, less than a minute later, he underscored that it was not a government takeover, because they are sending all the business to the insurance companies.” I don’t think most democrats even realize they are lying when they lie.



I think that just in general nobody can lie better than someone who doesn’t realize that they’re telling a lie, its hardly something that’s distinct to one political party….

142 JoyousMN  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:33:05am

re: #138 RogueOne

No. I can’t and won’t agree to your spin on this. I watched the process unfold and there wasn’t a point along the way (until the very end after Brown was elected) where the Dems wouldn’t have jumped at a chance to sign up an R.

Do you read Washingtonmonthly.com? Steve Benen documented this the entire way. The Bacus committee became a complete farce. Every time there was an agreement the R’s would pull the football away from Charlie Brown.

143 abbyadams  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:33:07am

re: #10 cliffster

I logged in just to upding the XFiles reference. That show had way too much influence on my life in my college years.

144 mikhailtheplumber  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:36:07am

Let them jump.
Then, when those responsible go into hiding and out of public life forever, you can rebuild a conservative party able to lead this country like it once did.

145 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:36:17am

re: #143 abbyadams

I logged in just to upding the XFiles reference. That show had way too much influence on my life in my college years.

haha, still does then if you logged in just for that ;)

It was a whole other life for me and my buddies. Weeks where an episode was off-topic were a complete let-down. And when the movie came out… look out.

146 [deleted]  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:43:19am
147 jamesfirecat  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:45:47am

In response to 146… (I do it this way in case you decide to actually flounce)

Bipartisanship should not be placed ahead of doing what is right for the American people. To do so would be to encourage people to hold hands and sing Kumiyah while the ship sinks rather than heading to the lifeboats.

148 JoyousMN  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:46:06am

re: #146 casey1

I don’t have a clue what you are saying. Is the sarcasm? Could you be more clear?

149 Wozza Matter?  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:46:06am

re: #7 MandyManners

Scaife. generally.

150 abbyadams  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:49:21am

re: #145 cliffster

Ouch. I guess you are right. Clairol made a mint off of me. My BF at the time adored Gillian Anderson, and so I dyed my hair red. We used to make sure we watched it every week, and still use private jokes based on the show. (We scream Roswell, ROSWELL!!! at each other every now and again.)

Must have worked, because he’s my hubby now.

151 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:50:10am

Uhh…the North and South have been fighting naval battles for decades, this is absolutely nothing new at all. Each side routinely fires on the others ships when crossing or even near disputed territorial waters…

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

And those are just the major engagements, there have been many boats and ships sunk over the years in small one on one engagements. Again, this is just business as usual between those two countries, besides it has yet to proven at all that a torpedoe was responsible. The North uses mines, lots of mines, it could have been one of those, or it could have had nothing to do with the North at all.

24 hour rule is in effect here in the meantime.

152 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:19:11am

This is also an example of the rewards of being famous or notorious, take your pick.

“[Frum] acknowledges he was very seldom at the [AEI] office. But he maintains he developed and spread conservative ideas — AEI’s stated goal — with the 300,000 words a year that he writes for his blog, FrumForum.com; his weekly columns for CNN.com, The Week, and the National Post of Canada; his biweekly offerings for TIME and American Public Media’s “Marketplace”; and his three TV and three radio appearances in a typical week. He also landed Canadian Finance Minister James Flaherty for an AEI retreat last month that included donors.”

In other words, his AEI post was a ginormous hand-job. He was getting $100k a year to lend his weight to the masthead, while getting paid elsewhere for everything he wrote. He was, at most, responsible for giving reach-arounds to “donors”.

I’m not saying this is exclusive to the GOP, but it is how it works. Once you’ve kissed the right [!] asses, people will hand you an extra hundred grand annually just for the use of your name.

One of the reasons America is fed up with the “élites”. We know we’re being buggered, but rarely do we get a chance to see the buggery this plainly.

“Frum tells us that regardless of his dismay with the party, he’ll stay registered GOP.”

Damn right he will. It’s where the money is.

153 alexknyc  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:46:31am

In a two-party system, having one party hijacked by lunatics is bad for everyone.

154 William of Orange  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:10:13pm

I got this in my mailbox.

While there are some truth in there, off-shoring jobs to China, bailing out banks and foreclosures, that doesn’t justify you from performing an act of terrorism! If this is your idea of being funny, you’re totally screwed.

The song played is also a telling example of dis-taste….

155 theliel  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:14:26pm

re: #90 MandyManners

They have before.

only once we crossed a certian line.
HOnestly if we’d just stopped at the river nk would be like half the size it is.

but oh well. learn from history.

156 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:28:08pm

re: #152 Cato the Elder

I wouldn’t call writing 300,000 words a year for your employer a “hand-job” $100,000 a year freebie. Who gives a shit if he was ever in the office or not, they certainly didn’t seem to before his column had the audicity to tell the Republicans that maybe they were going about things in the wrong way.

Why does someone who simply writes a weekly column need to punch a time clock and be physically present at your business office? I do not think they do, nor do I think that most writers actually put in “office hours” at their employers office.

I think it is just another excuse to try to make him look bad that had absolutely nothing to do with why he was really let go.

157 unsavoryagent  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:14:08pm

re: #156 ausador

I wouldn’t call writing 300,000 words a year for your employer a “hand-job” $100,000 a year freebie.

He didn’t write 300,000 words a year for AEI, he wrote them on his blog. See the spinoff link this thread for details of how hard he worked for his $100,000.

158 unsavoryagent  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:16:41pm

In Case you can’t find the spinoff:

[Link: corner.nationalreview.com…]

On David Frum’s Departure from AEI [Charles Murray]

“But I will tell what is common knowledge around AEI: David got a handsome salary but, for the last few years, has been invisible as a member of the institute. Being a scholar at a think tank (or any institution) is not just a matter of acknowledging your affiliation in your books and op-eds. It’s also a matter of blogging at the institute’s blog, not just your own blog (David had a grand total of 3 posts on AEI’s blog in the year since it began), reviewing colleagues’ drafts, reacting to their ideas, contributing chapters to their books, organizing scholarly events, participating on the institute’s panels, attending the institute’s conferences, helping out with fundraising, serving on in-house committees, giving in-house seminars, and mentoring junior staff. Different scholars are engaged in these activities to different degrees.”

159 Scriptorium  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 4:11:07pm

Well, this is a critical moment for conservatives and the GOP. Whatever Frum’s motives his termination/defection at this moment of a major legislative defeat highlights the difficulty in negotiating among short term, long term, and principled strategies—particularly when the party is encumbered by the vast and noisy weight of the credulous and reactionary.

160 swamprat  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 5:52:41pm

Bottom line;

If the healthcare/ stimulus… If OBAMA is good for America, then the Republicans are sunk.

Conversely, If Obama is bad for America, the republicans will be re-established.

In the meantime both parties will claim the other is losing.

161 enigma3535  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:46:46pm

I disagree.

Bottom line:

Nothing is certain.

That said, without substantive healthcare reform coupled with cost controls, our US of A will probably not be able to compete with those countries that have universal health care [where 10 of 11 of their top earning professions are not Doctors] … this is not so much a near term problem [a couple of yrs], it is probably a long term problem [measured in decades].

Closely aligned with this problem is the [apparent] fact that we are a laggard regarding educating our next generation of workers.

To the Tea-partiers, I say, get with the the REAL program … the US of A first for real reasons that matter to those of us that want pragmatically, efficient governance … whatever. Like they’d know pragmatism if it bit them in the face.


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