Andrew Breitbart: Rep. John Lewis is Lying

Wingnuts • Views: 5,456

As we noted last Sunday, Rep. John Lewis and Rep. Emanuel Cleaver said tea party protesters screamed the “N” word at them repeatedly as they walked to the Capitol. (They also screamed “faggot” at Barney Frank.)

Now Andrew Breitbart is calling Representatives Lewis and Cleaver liars. He denies any racist slurs were yelled, and says that Lewis and Cleaver are the true racists: 2010: A Race Odyssey — Disproving a Negative for Cash Prizes or, How the Civil Rights Movement Jumped the Shark.

The walk in and of itself — with two of the participants holding their handheld cameras above their heads hoping to document “proof” — was an act of racism meant to create a contrast between the tea party crowd and themselves.

Breitbart seems to believe that because he can’t make out the “N” word in videos of the incident, that “proves” it never happened. He’s convinced Lewis and Cleaver are lying about it, and he’s offering to donate $10,000 to the United Negro College Fund if Lewis can “prove” someone shouted the “N” word at him.

Or Breitbart suggests an alternative: Rep. Lewis can take a lie detector test.

Good grief.

A typical series of comments for Breitbart’s article:

Tempus_Fugit_ 76p � 1 day ago

I am so sick of the race card being waved in my face. When are black people going to get sick and tired of being used by the Left?

—————

Bigplankton 43p � 1 day ago

Never? I’m not going to sit around and wait for Black people to get sick and tired of anything and suddenly start voting Republican. What I am doing, and have always done, it support my fellow White people, my own race, because that’s what every other race on Earth does.

—————

DontTreadOnMe 109p � 1 day ago

Not so long as there is “free stuff” and excuses for underacheivement to be had!
Why bother with hard work and self-responsibility when some group will confer “victim” ststus on you and not expect anything but loyalty at the polls?

Republicans may have freed the slaves, but Dems will always try to make new ones and keep the ones they’ve got.

Jump to bottom

771 comments
1 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:11:20am

Black men walking through a crowd is racism, according to Brietbart. Wow.

2 Political Atheist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:11:45am

I'd simply hope some cell phone footage proves it. Love to see that donation.

3 Stanghazi  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:12:16am

Any luck in identifying the red flag in the video of the spitting incident?

(it looked like the y-flag of the neo nazis)

4 Kragar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:13:13am

Can Breitbart provide video footage of a frat boy dressed as a pimp to back his claim?

5 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:13:32am
...support my fellow White people, my own race, because that’s what every other race on Earth does.


White Power!

6 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:13:57am

Stay classy Breitbart. And honestly Cleaver and Lewis handled the whole event with classy even declining to press charges to the guy who spat on Cleaver and Lewis forgiving the guy who called him the n-word.

7 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:14:10am

re: #2 Rightwingconspirator

He just mentioned them so he could use the word 'negro'.

Whenever racist assholes talk about a black charity, it's always the UNCF. That's why.

8 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:14:12am
The Congressional Black Caucus pulled the Selma card

That phrase alone makes Breitbart beneath contempt. The fact that he's using it in an article intended to denigrate Lewis makes him beneath whale feces.

9 ryannon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:14:12am

This is all so shameful. I can't imagine what level of denial, stupidity or malice these people are coming from.

10 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:14:41am

Bigplankton is an asshole.

11 Lidane  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:16:35am

re: #8 wrenchwench

That phrase alone makes Breitbart beneath contempt. The fact that he's using it in an article intended to denigrate Lewis makes him beneath whale feces.

A lot of things place Breitbart beneath contempt, but yeah. This adds to it significantly.

I wonder if he'll ever look back on how unhinged he's acted and cringe, or if he will ever develop enough self-awareness to even try.

12 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:16:39am

re: #3 Stanley Sea

Any luck in identifying the red flag in the video of the spitting incident?

(it looked like the y-flag of the neo nazis)

I looked through some flickr collections last night to see if anyone took a clear picture of the flag. I couldn't find it but I didn't spend a lot of time on it. It certainly looks like that Nazi "Y" flag but it could be anything. Tea Party people use all kinds of old colonial era flags and even make up their own flags. There's no way to be certain about it.

13 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:17:14am

Heck even if you showed Andrew Breitbart a video tape of Lewis being shouted and N-bombed, he'd probably claim it was a hoax designed to discredit Andrew Breitbart.

Don't worry Andrew, you've discredited yourself quite well enough on your own.

14 researchok  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:17:22am

Breibart has a good thing going.

You'd think he'd have enough good sense to shut up and just keep filling out deposit slips

15 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:18:30am

Lemme guess...Breitbart is feeling ignored as the O'Keefe story has lost its media attention, so he makes an asinine statement in order to fire up some more controversy and drive hits to his site for ad revenue.

If I could send out a hosts file entry that magically hit every computer, I'd have it redirect Big Government to localhost.

16 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:18:42am

re: #11 Lidane

He reminds me most of Fred Phelps. I doubt he'll ever change. That level of anger has a way of running a person.

17 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:18:51am

re: #11 Lidane

A lot of things place Breitbart beneath contempt, but yeah. This adds to it significantly.

I wonder if he'll ever look back on how unhinged he's acted and cringe, or if he will ever develop enough self-awareness to even try.

He has a platform from which he can call more idiots like himself to reinforce the way he sees things. Just look at the Shrieker in the right sidebar.

18 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:19:31am

re: #10 MandyManners

Bigplankton is an asshole.

Bigplankton...I like that. Kudos.

19 Stanghazi  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:19:33am

re: #12 Killgore Trout

I looked through some flickr collections last night to see if anyone took a clear picture of the flag. I couldn't find it but I didn't spend a lot of time on it. It certainly looks like that Nazi "Y" flag but it could be anything. Tea Party people use all kinds of old colonial era flags and even make up their own flags. There's no way to be certain about it.

Thanks for looking. If I had to make a guess...

20 jamesfirecat  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:20:39am

re: #5 Killgore Trout

White Power!

Heh reminds me of the bit in Thrid Rock From the Sun where the Solomon family is looking for a "Caucasian support group" and, well you can guess where they end up...

21 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:20:40am

re: #10 MandyManners

Bigplankton is an asshole.

No one with sense will argue that one. That guy is a shithead.

22 Gordon Marock  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:21:28am

There is one thing I am certain about: Neither someone shouting a racial slur at a congessman nor some freakout by Andrew Breitbart have anything to do with whether HCR was a good or bad thing.

23 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:22:17am

John Lewis is an American hero.

24 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:22:55am

re: #1 Obdicut

Black men walking through a crowd is racism, according to Brietbart. Wow.

It's all another Dem plot to make the right look bad--inciting the right like that, they just knew someone would yell the n word.

The obvious solution is to not elect black people, and black people shouldn't appear in public. /

(wingnut 'logic')

25 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:23:26am

The real issue in the comments - the "1 day ago" on them. There's lots of stupid people that can come in and make comments. All it takes is one non-stupid person to take them down.

26 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:23:34am

Keep spinning, Breitbart, keep spinning...

27 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:24:25am

re: #24 iceweasel

Hi you..Hope you are having fun this week...

28 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:24:33am

re: #10 MandyManners

Bigplankton is an asshole.

You mean Mr. Krabs' nemesis?

29 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:25:09am

Wasn't there. Have no idea what happened.

30 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:25:55am

Mr. Breitbart,

I'm pretty sure Congressman Lewis can recognize the word in question when it is aimed at him. He's heard it before, under conditions that would make you curl up into a ball and wet yourself.

Have some shame, stop whining, and get a life.

Yours sincerely,

SFZ

31 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:26:57am

re: #27 HoosierHoops

Hi you..Hope you are having fun this week...

Hey Hoops! We're having a blast! How are you? We'll have to talk over the weekend. :)

32 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:27:03am

re: #23 wrenchwench

John Lewis is an American hero.


I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Lewis was present on the stage during the inauguration of Barack Obama, as the only living speaker from the rally at the March on Washington. Obama signed a commemorative photograph for Lewis with the words, “Because of you, John. Barack Obama.”
33 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:28:25am

re: #6 HappyWarrior

Stay classy Breitbart. And honestly Cleaver and Lewis handled the whole event with classy even declining to press charges to the guy who spat on Cleaver and Lewis forgiving the guy who called him the n-word.

Why did Cleaver not press charges? I hate it when bigots are allowed to get away with criminal conduct.

34 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:30:18am

re: #32 wrenchwench

Yeah. That man has seen racism up close and personal. If he says he was called the n-word, then his charge should be given weight.

35 Gordon Marock  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:30:25am

Rep. Lewis deserves respect for his courage in fighting for civil rights. That respect does not make his votes or policy decisions correct. If a person unfairly attackes Rep. Lewis or engages in boorish behaviour, that does not make the other person's policy decisions incorrect.

36 jamesfirecat  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:30:26am

re: #33 Spare O'Lake

Why did Cleaver not press charges? I hate it when bigots are allowed to get away with criminal conduct.

Probably because he has bigger fish to fry..


That and as Breitbart is trying to suggest there isn't enough proof that it happened to have had it stick...

37 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:30:42am

re: #33 Spare O'Lake

Why did Cleaver not press charges? I hate it when bigots are allowed to get away with criminal conduct.

He may have felt that pressing charges would distract attention from the bill, or just stir up ill will. My best guess.

38 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:31:31am

Black people have had full civil rights for 45 years now, isn't it about time they let this whole "racism" thing go?

/

39 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:31:35am

re: #30 SanFranciscoZionist

He's heard it from people physically attacking him.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

And let's remember that racism and violence are not innately twinned, that people can feel one way and still reject violence, rather than excusing it and defending it:

The riders, who had been left unescorted by the highway police as they reached Montgomery city limits, arrived at the bus station at 10:23 AM and were met by a crowd of violent white protesters, including women and children. Several were injured in the racist attack, including Robert Kennedy's assistant John Seigenthaler, who had followed the bus in his car: attempting to rescue two white female riders, he was hit over the head with a metal pipe and "lay unconscious on the ground for half an hour."[2] Floyd Mann, a "committed segregationist, tough on law and order," stepped in to protect William Barbee, who was to remain paralyzed and died an early death as a result of his beating. Floyd fired his gun in the air, yelling, "'There'll be no killing here today.' A white attacker raised his bat for a final blow. Mann put his gun to the man's head. 'One more swing,' he said, 'and you're dead.'"[5]

I remember hearing from my grandmother and grandfather that a lot of people's attitudes towards blacks where changed when they saw the violence and the ignorance and the hate that was directed at them. It is a terrible shame that it happened, but it is a good thing to remember that crowds of angry, yelling people have committed murder before in the US.

It can happen again.

Lewis went on that freedom ride, he risked his hide for the sake of progress. He stood up like a free man.

I will believe him over Brietbart any day of the week.

40 Stanghazi  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:31:49am

re: #33 Spare O'Lake

Why did Cleaver not press charges? I hate it when bigots are allowed to get away with criminal conduct.

No idea, it's his decision. But maybe he didn't want to make the guy a hero of the Breitbart crowd.

41 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:32:13am

re: #35 Gordon Marock

Rep. Lewis deserves respect for his courage in fighting for civil rights. That respect does not make his votes or policy decisions correct. If a person unfairly attackes Rep. Lewis or engages in boorish behaviour, that does not make the other person's policy decisions incorrect.

That's quite true. Of course, Breitbart isn't challenging Lewis's policy decisions, he's calling him a liar and acting like a racist buffoon.

42 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:32:38am

re: #18 darthstar

Bigplankton...I like that. Kudos.

It's not my nic. Look in the gray box.

43 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:32:49am

re: #41 SanFranciscoZionist

That's quite true. Of course, Breitbart isn't challenging Lewis's policy decisions, he's calling him a liar and acting like a racist buffoon.

Anything to blow the dog whistle and get the wingnuts riled up about race instead of focusing on policy and actual governance.

44 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:33:01am

re: #35 Gordon Marock

Rep. Lewis deserves respect for his courage in fighting for civil rights. That respect does not make his votes or policy decisions correct. If a person unfairly attackes Rep. Lewis or engages in boorish behaviour, that does not make the other person's policy decisions incorrect.

Hmmm.

;)

45 Gordon Marock  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:33:11am

re: #41 SanFranciscoZionist

That's quite true. Of course, Breitbart isn't challenging Lewis's policy decisions, he's calling him a liar and acting like a racist buffoon.

Right, so let's categorize Breitbart as boorish and move on.

46 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:33:16am

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

No one with sense will argue that one. That guy is a shithead.

Don't defame shit, please.

47 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:33:53am

re: #45 Gordon Marock

It's a little early for you to call for an end to the thread, isn't it?

48 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:33:54am

re: #28 Mad Al-Jaffee

You mean Mr. Krabs' nemesis?

SpongeBob's, too. Right?

49 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:34:29am

re: #43 drcordell

Anything to blow the dog whistle and get the wingnuts riled up about race instead of focusing on policy and actual governance.

We're past dogwhistles. This is more like standing on a chair, waving your arms over your head and screaming "I resent black people! I really, really do!"

50 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:34:42am

re: #48 MandyManners

SpongeBob's, too. Right?

Yeah, but it's always Mr. Krabs he's trying to steal from.

51 jamesfirecat  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:34:57am

re: #46 MandyManners

Don't defame shit, please.

Exactly, it helps the plants we eat and the pretty flowers we admire bloom. When was the last time you say Andrew Breitbart helping pretty flowers bloom?

52 Gordon Marock  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:35:13am

re: #44 Varek Raith

Hmmm.

;)

I like cats, but don't get the reference.

53 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:35:18am

Accusing Lewis of lying about it is almost more offensive than the original act considering who he is and his history and everything.

54 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:35:46am

re: #33 Spare O'Lake

Why did Cleaver not press charges? I hate it when bigots are allowed to get away with criminal conduct.

Speaking a disgusting word is a crime? I thought it only counted when it was part of an act designed to intimidate, such as in that article I linked to early this morning.

55 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:35:53am

re: #45 Gordon Marock

Right, so let's categorize Breitbart as boorish and move on.

Why? Because you're afraid that looking at what he's doing will lend credence to HCR?

56 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:35:55am

The latest from Breitbart favorite Michele Bachmann: "It is really quite sobering what has happened. From 100% of our economy was private prior to September of 2008, but as of Tuesday, the federal government has now taken ownership or control of 51% of the private economy."

[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

57 Lidane  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:36:29am

re: #50 Mad Al-Jaffee

Yeah, but it's always Mr. Krabs he's trying to steal from.

That and SpongeBob has tried to genuinely be nice to Plankton, who's clearly overcompensating for being so short. Heh.

58 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:36:45am

re: #54 MandyManners

Speaking a disgusting word is a crime? I thought it only counted when it was part of an act designed to intimidate, such as in that article I linked to early this morning.

Spitting on someone is.

59 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:36:56am

re: #50 Mad Al-Jaffee

Yeah, but it's always Mr. Krabs he's trying to steal from.

I need to pay more attention.

60 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:37:00am

re: #51 jamesfirecat

Exactly, it helps the plants we eat and the pretty flowers we admire bloom. When was the last time you say Andrew Breitbart helping pretty flowers bloom?

Just the Crazy Bigotry Lily, and the Flowering Partisan Strangleweed.

61 Gordon Marock  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:37:16am

re: #55 SanFranciscoZionist

Why? Because you're afraid that looking at what he's doing will lend credence to HCR?

Because I didn't vote for Breitbart (and won't if he runs for anything) and don't feel i need to spend time discussing him.

62 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:37:16am

re: #56 drcordell

That would be pretty damn sobering if it bore any resemblance to anything approaching something remotely near the neighborhood of reality.

Don't her constituents mind that she has no fucking clue what is true and what isn't? I don't get people voting for her.

63 mikhailtheplumber  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:37:29am

Why is this Breitbart person so angry?

64 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:37:31am

re: #51 jamesfirecat

Exactly, it helps the plants we eat and the pretty flowers we admire bloom. When was the last time you say Andrew Breitbart helping pretty flowers bloom?

BREITBART BASHES BUTTERCUPS!!!

65 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:37:43am

re: #54 MandyManners

Speaking a disgusting word is a crime? I thought it only counted when it was part of an act designed to intimidate, such as in that article I linked to early this morning.

Yeah I don't agree with sending bigots to jail. You should feel completely free to call anyone you want a "n*gger" without fear of Government reprisal. Quite frankly, I'd appreciate it if all of the bigoted members of our society wore their prejudices on their sleeves. Nothing irks me more than racist fucks who don't have the courage to spout off their true convictions in public.

66 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:37:45am

BBL

67 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:37:52am

re: #56 drcordell

The latest from Breitbart favorite Michele Bachmann: "It is really quite sobering what has happened. From 100% of our economy was private prior to September of 2008, but as of Tuesday, the federal government has now taken ownership or control of 51% of the private economy."

[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

I'd like to see her math on that.

68 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:38:16am

re: #61 Gordon Marock

Because I didn't vote for Breitbart (and won't if he runs for anything) and don't feel i need to spend time discussing him.

Well, come back when we're talking about something that interests you more.

Vaya con Dios.

69 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:38:29am

re: #67 Conservative Moonbat

I'd like to see her math on that.

2+2=CHICKEN!

70 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:38:33am

re: #63 mikhailtheplumber

Why is this Breitbart person so angry?

Maybe he just wants to stir the shit in order to make more money off of his traffic.

71 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:38:51am

re: #61 Gordon Marock

Because I didn't vote for Breitbart (and won't if he runs for anything) and don't feel i need to spend time discussing him.

Then don't.

Pretty easy.

72 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:38:56am

re: #54 MandyManners

Speaking a disgusting word is a crime? I thought it only counted when it was part of an act designed to intimidate, such as in that article I linked to early this morning.

That's why I only said Cleaver, who was allegedly spat upon, which is an assault.

73 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:38:59am

re: #57 Lidane

That and SpongeBob has tried to genuinely be nice to Plankton, who's clearly overcompensating for being so short. Heh.

I love the episode where a bunch of the characters form a band and Plankton plays the harmonica. He plays it by running from hole to hole and blowing as hard as he can.

74 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:39:06am

re: #70 MandyManners

Maybe he just wants to stir the shit in order to make more money off of his traffic.

hehehe, yep

75 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:39:08am

re: #65 drcordell

Yeah I don't agree with sending bigots to jail. You should feel completely free to call anyone you want a "n*gger" without fear of Government reprisal. Quite frankly, I'd appreciate it if all of the bigoted members of our society wore their prejudices on their sleeves. Nothing irks me more than racist fucks who don't have the courage to spout off their true convictions in public.

STOP THE PRESSES! I just up-dinged you.

76 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:39:13am

re: #62 Obdicut

That would be pretty damn sobering if it bore any resemblance to anything approaching something remotely near the neighborhood of reality.

Don't her constituents mind that she has no fucking clue what is true and what isn't? I don't get people voting for her.

Well hopefully she has fear-mongered all of her plebe voters into not filling out their census forms. If she was successful, MN is predicted to lose a Congressional district. Conveniently enough it would likely be Bachmann's that gets carved up and eliminated.

77 Gordon Marock  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:39:16am

re: #68 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, come back when we're talking about something that interests you more.

Vaya con Dios.

Not fair!

78 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:39:20am

re: #68 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, come back when we're talking about something that interests you more.

Vaya con Dios.

Vaya con Di-s?

79 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:39:36am

re: #67 Conservative Moonbat

I'd like to see her math on that.

I'm sure it works when you write it on Glenn Beck's chalkboard.

80 jamesfirecat  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:39:59am

re: #61 Gordon Marock

Because I didn't vote for Breitbart (and won't if he runs for anything) and don't feel i need to spend time discussing him.

Then get off the the thread and let us have our fun batting this idiots words around like a clutter of cats (that is one of the actual correct words to use to describe a group of cats, another is "clowder" whatever that means), cluster or "glaring") with only a single ball of yarn between them.

81 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:40:17am

re: #62 Obdicut

There's a whole bunch of folks in the house and senate I can't figure out how they got elected. I wish I could remember who said it...you get the gov't you deserve. We have an electorate that does not or will not educate themselves on the issues and we get the mess in DC we've got.

82 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:40:18am

re: #72 Spare O'Lake

That's why I only said Cleaver, who was allegedly spat upon, which is an assault.

Battery, actually.

One cure for those who spit is a fist in the mouth. But, I'm not advocating such a thing. I'm merely pointing it out.

83 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:40:37am

re: #74 cliffster

hehehe, yep

He needs to find a better schtick.

84 Lidane  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:40:46am

re: #33 Spare O'Lake

Why did Cleaver not press charges? I hate it when bigots are allowed to get away with criminal conduct.

Because pressing charges would have created drama that would have distracted from everything else. Plus, it would have made the person being charged a martyr for the Stormfront idiots and other bigots. Why give them the satisfaction?

Nah. Better to just be the better man and let it go.

85 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:41:02am

re: #78 cliffster

Vaya con Di-s?

I don't know how you do it in Spanish. I don't do it in English.

86 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:41:13am

re: #76 drcordell

We shouldn't celebrate her fucking over of her own constituents. A badly-done census hurts people outside her constituency as well, as well as hurting those who didn't vote for her inside it.

Sure, I'll be glad she loses her seat, but the problem of the voters who believe her still exists.

87 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:42:13am

re: #82 MandyManners

Battery, actually.

One cure for those who spit is a fist in the mouth. But, I'm not advocating such a thing. I'm merely pointing it out.

I think that the Congressman beating up some schmuck in the crowd would really have distracted from the issues at hand.

Not that I wouldn't watch it gleefully on YouTube over and over.

88 Gordon Marock  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:43:17am

re: #80 jamesfirecat

Then get off the the thread and let us have our fun batting this idiots words around like a clutter of cats (that is one of the actual correct words to use to describe a group of cats, another is "clowder" whatever that means), cluster or "glaring") with only a single ball of yarn between them.

Fine, but on the next thread, I am going to post some really compelling shit.

89 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:43:27am

re: #87 SanFranciscoZionist
Speaking of vids...have you seen the one where the dog tears off the front bumper of the police car? That dog was pissed.

90 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:43:54am

re: #86 Obdicut

We shouldn't celebrate her fucking over of her own constituents. A badly-done census hurts people outside her constituency as well, as well as hurting those who didn't vote for her inside it.

Sure, I'll be glad she loses her seat, but the problem of the voters who believe her still exists.

This is all true. Unfortunately there really ain't dick anyone can do about it. Fox News and the other right-wing media profiteers have a huge megaphone they are more than willing to lend to Bachmann. If you're dumb enough to believe the Census is some sort of conspiracy, I doubt there's anything that can be said to convince you otherwise. At that point I'm glad they are screwing themselves out of federal funding and their own Congressional representative.

91 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:44:12am

re: #82 MandyManners

Battery, actually.

One cure for those who spit is a fist in the mouth. But, I'm not advocating such a thing. I'm merely pointing it out.

But it's such a gooooooooood thing to point out. :)

92 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:44:23am

re: #87 SanFranciscoZionist

I think that the Congressman beating up some schmuck in the crowd would really have distracted from the issues at hand.

Not that I wouldn't watch it gleefully on YouTube over and over.

A knuckle-burger for the gobber would have been priceless.

93 stayfrosty  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:44:36am

This is what I don't get. Quite a few videos from within the crow, near the Congressmen, were recorded and have been uploaded to the net. Plus, if you watch the first video on Breitbart's page, you'll notice that Jesse Jackson, Jr. was also recording the entire thing with his mobile phone. And despite the accusations, not a single bit of video or audio from anyone shows any such thing. Jackson, Jr., being right beside Rep. Lewis, certainly would have picked up something the 70-year old Congressman claims he clearly heard, no? Why doesn't he release the video he took just to be sure?

I'm not going to call anyone a liar, but I don't see how it's fair to immediately assume Eric Cantor's report of a bullet through his window is "fishy" but then accept that Rep. Lewis was called the n-word when after more than a week, there's still no proof. I mean, is it not possible he misheard?

94 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:46:05am

re: #85 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know how you do it in Spanish. I don't do it in English.

I know you don't - I don't really know what the rules are around that. The other day my wife saw one of our friends type "G-d something or other" and she got a little irritated.. what's wrong with saying "God"? I explained to her that it's actually the ultimate compliment.. the name is too sacred to write (correct me if I'm wrong). Where did I learn that? LGF!! See, time on LGF is time well spent.

95 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:46:47am

re: #84 Lidane

Because pressing charges would have created drama that would have distracted from everything else. Plus, it would have made the person being charged a martyr for the Stormfront idiots and other bigots. Why give them the satisfaction?

Nah. Better to just be the better man and let it go.

Yeah, I know all that, but the perp hasn't learned anything from the incident except that he got away with a racist attack on Cleaver with impunity.

96 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:46:54am

re: #93 stayfrosty

Cantor's report was fishy. Downward angle and all.

Yes, it is possible he misheard. However, I trust the Congressman over Breitbart any day.

97 Four More Tears  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:47:12am

Note to whomever posted Lady Gaga's Bad Romance yesterday:
You got this song stuck in my head. What did I ever do to you??

98 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:47:12am

re: #89 pingjockey

Speaking of vids...have you seen the one where the dog tears off the front bumper of the police car? That dog was pissed.

Missed that.

99 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:47:25am

re: #93 stayfrosty

This is what I don't get. Quite a few videos from within the crow, near the Congressmen, were recorded and have been uploaded to the net. Plus, if you watch the first video on Breitbart's page, you'll notice that Jesse Jackson, Jr. was also recording the entire thing with his mobile phone. And despite the accusations, not a single bit of video or audio from anyone shows any such thing. Jackson, Jr., being right beside Rep. Lewis, certainly would have picked up something the 70-year old Congressman claims he clearly heard, no? Why doesn't he release the video he took just to be sure?

I'm not going to call anyone a liar, but I don't see how it's fair to immediately assume Eric Cantor's report of a bullet through his window is "fishy" but then accept that Rep. Lewis was called the n-word when after more than a week, there's still no proof. I mean, is it not possible he misheard?

Yeah, maybe someone was yelling "chigger" because they saw a bug on his shoulder. Or maybe they were yelling "digger" because they feel he was digging us too deep into national debt. Or maybe they yelled "bigger" because they thought the government was increasing too rapidly.

I know for certain that cell phone microphones are amazing at picking up a single voice at a distance in the middle of a huge crowd of people. It's super suspicious to me as well that it's nowhere on any of the videos.

100 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:48:13am

re: #87 SanFranciscoZionist

I think that the Congressman beating up some schmuck in the crowd would really have distracted from the issues at hand.

Not that I wouldn't watch it gleefully on YouTube over and over.

Same here.

101 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:48:21am

re: #98 SanFranciscoZionist
Don't know if it's on You tube. I saw it on the local news last night. Don't know where it happened.

102 stayfrosty  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:48:42am

re: #94 cliffster

I know you don't - I don't really know what the rules are around that. The other day my wife saw one of our friends type "G-d something or other" and she got a little irritated.. what's wrong with saying "God"? I explained to her that it's actually the ultimate compliment.. the name is too sacred to write (correct me if I'm wrong). Where did I learn that? LGF!! See, time on LGF is time well spent.

I don't think it's necessarily that it's too sacred to write, but that it's too sacred to destroy. So, if you write it on a piece of paper, you cannot ever dispose of that paper. Hence, you simply never actually write the word.

But there's many Jews who think this only applies to the Hebrew names. I guess keeping the rule in English is more covering all one's bases.

103 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:48:53am

re: #98 SanFranciscoZionist

Missed that.

104 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:49:14am

re: #91 bloodstar

But it's such a goood thing to point out. :)

Woe be unto The Kid if he ever utters it in front of me. Swift and powerful correction shall follow.

105 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:49:24am

re: #93 stayfrosty

Cantor's report of the bullet clearly was implying it was an attack on him-- it wasn't.

Lewis is a veteran of the civil rights movements and has paid in blood, sweat, and tears for progress in the United States. He had the courage to stand up when it meant physical violence was going to be coming at him.

Comparing the two situations is odious.

106 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:49:34am

re: #103 drcordell
Thanks Doc!

107 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:49:47am

re: #103 drcordell

Om nom nom!

108 Lidane  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:50:15am

re: #95 Spare O'Lake

Yeah, I know all that, but the perp hasn't learned anything from the incident except that he got away with a racist attack on Cleaver with impunity.

He "got away with it" and yet still lost, because for all his efforts, the bill still passed, and Cleaver looks like the better man for not stooping to his level.

It's an object lesson from people like John Lewis, actually. Let the bigots scream and yell and call you names, and do all sorts of things. Just hold your ground. When it's all said and done, they look like the unhinged Neanderthals they are, and you come through with your dignity intact.

109 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:50:41am

re: #94 cliffster

I know you don't - I don't really know what the rules are around that. The other day my wife saw one of our friends type "G-d something or other" and she got a little irritated.. what's wrong with saying "God"? I explained to her that it's actually the ultimate compliment.. the name is too sacred to write (correct me if I'm wrong). Where did I learn that? LGF!! See, time on LGF is time well spent.

Yes, you've got it. It's an extension into English of a tradition of extreme respect and caution about writing the name of God in Hebrew.

110 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:50:50am

re: #93 stayfrosty

This is what I don't get. Quite a few videos from within the crow, near the Congressmen, were recorded and have been uploaded to the net. Plus, if you watch the first video on Breitbart's page, you'll notice that Jesse Jackson, Jr. was also recording the entire thing with his mobile phone. And despite the accusations, not a single bit of video or audio from anyone shows any such thing. Jackson, Jr., being right beside Rep. Lewis, certainly would have picked up something the 70-year old Congressman claims he clearly heard, no? Why doesn't he release the video he took just to be sure?

I'm not going to call anyone a liar, but I don't see how it's fair to immediately assume Eric Cantor's report of a bullet through his window is "fishy" but then accept that Rep. Lewis was called the n-word when after more than a week, there's still no proof. I mean, is it not possible he misheard?

Maybe the heckler was shouting out a recipe for a mixed drink and said, "jigger"? Mabye he thought that Lewis looked "bigger" in real life?

111 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:51:05am

re: #108 Lidane
Ghandi and Dr. King come to mind.

112 jamesfirecat  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:51:46am

re: #110 MandyManners

Maybe the heckler was shouting out a recipe for a mixed drink and said, "jigger"? Mabye he thought that Lewis looked "bigger" in real life?

Maybe he thought it was an especially blustery day so he shouted "TIGGER!"

113 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:51:47am

re: #95 Spare O'Lake

Yeah, I know all that, but the perp hasn't learned anything from the incident except that he got away with a racist attack on Cleaver with impunity.

I think Cleaver learned a long time ago that you've got to know when to hold them and when to fold them.

I might have done something different, but I have to respect his judgement on this.

114 Lidane  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:52:19am

re: #93 stayfrosty

I'm not going to call anyone a liar, but

I always hate passive-aggressive bullshit like this. If you want to call him a liar, own it. Say it out loud. Don't hide behind that whole "I'm just asking questions!" malarkey.

115 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:52:23am

re: #108 Lidane

Lewis famously had a conversation with one of the men who attacked him during the freedom rides, too:

In February 2009, forty-eight years after he had been bloodied by the Ku Klux Klan during civil rights marches, Lewis received an apology on national television from a white southerner, former Klansman Elwin Wilson.

"I'm so sorry about what happened back then," Wilson said breathlessly. "It's OK. I forgive you," Lewis responded. (On national television, both men recalled the incident.) "[I remember] going directly to the Greyhound bus station," Lewis said. "We tried to enter a so-called 'white' waiting room and the moment we started through the door, a group of young men attacked us." Wilson was in the group, but said he "did more than help." He said he was the main attacker. The outburst, Wilson said, was just part of a life of hate he led for years. "I had a black baby doll in this house, and I had a little rope, and I tied it to a limb and let it hang here," he said.

116 Four More Tears  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:52:43am

Are you f*ck*ing kidding me???
Road rage, accident centers on Obama bumper sticker

NASHVILLE, Tenn. - A Nashville man says he and his 10-year-old daughter were victims of road rage Thursday afternoon, all because of a political bumper sticker on his car.

Get a grip. Seriously.

117 stayfrosty  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:52:56am

re: #110 MandyManners

Maybe the heckler was shouting out a recipe for a mixed drink and said, "jigger"? Mabye he thought that Lewis looked "bigger" in real life?

Maybe so. So please show me the audio which recorded any word even remotely resembling any of those. //

Let's start with the one Rep. Jackson took while standing right next to Rep. Lewis, walking through the crowd no more than a couple feet from him.

118 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:53:06am

re: #93 stayfrosty

This is what I don't get. Quite a few videos from within the crow, near the Congressmen, were recorded and have been uploaded to the net. Plus, if you watch the first video on Breitbart's page, you'll notice that Jesse Jackson, Jr. was also recording the entire thing with his mobile phone. And despite the accusations, not a single bit of video or audio from anyone shows any such thing. Jackson, Jr., being right beside Rep. Lewis, certainly would have picked up something the 70-year old Congressman claims he clearly heard, no? Why doesn't he release the video he took just to be sure?

I'm not going to call anyone a liar, but I don't see how it's fair to immediately assume Eric Cantor's report of a bullet through his window is "fishy" but then accept that Rep. Lewis was called the n-word when after more than a week, there's still no proof. I mean, is it not possible he misheard?

Yeah right, maybe the guy called Lewis a nirther. No way he misheard.
Either Lewis is telling the truth or he's lying. I think he's telling the truth.

119 jamesfirecat  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:53:49am

re: #115 Obdicut

Lewis famously had a conversation with one of the men who attacked him during the freedom rides, too:

Christ that's both depressing and uplifting at the same time..... just like the good ending of Bioshock 2! (TM)

120 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:54:13am

re: #99 drcordell

Yeah, maybe someone was yelling "chigger" because they saw a bug on his shoulder. Or maybe they were yelling "digger" because they feel he was digging us too deep into national debt. Or maybe they yelled "bigger" because they thought the government was increasing too rapidly.

I know for certain that cell phone microphones are amazing at picking up a single voice at a distance in the middle of a huge crowd of people. It's super suspicious to me as well that it's nowhere on any of the videos.

"Congressman! Congressman! You can't vote for this bill! The figgers don't add up!"

121 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:54:28am

re: #93 stayfrosty

This is what I don't get. Quite a few videos from within the crow, near the Congressmen, were recorded and have been uploaded to the net. Plus, if you watch the first video on Breitbart's page, you'll notice that Jesse Jackson, Jr. was also recording the entire thing with his mobile phone. And despite the accusations, not a single bit of video or audio from anyone shows any such thing. Jackson, Jr., being right beside Rep. Lewis, certainly would have picked up something the 70-year old Congressman claims he clearly heard, no? Why doesn't he release the video he took just to be sure?

I'm not going to call anyone a liar, but I don't see how it's fair to immediately assume Eric Cantor's report of a bullet through his window is "fishy" but then accept that Rep. Lewis was called the n-word when after more than a week, there's still no proof. I mean, is it not possible he misheard?

It's possible, but at the same time, there's nothing to be gained for Lewis to be lying. HCR was going to pass or not pass. someone dropping N-bombs wasn't going to change that. However there is *everything* to be gained by the Tea-Party movement to discredit and devalue the report that some moron in their group is a bigot and/or racist.

Also, note the Breitbart isn't claiming that Lewis misheard, but instead claiming that somehow this is all Lewis' and companys' fault and were some how inciting the Tea Party people to react. So in other words, it's their fault for walking by them.

What's next, it's the woman's fault she was raped because she wore sexy clothing in public? Both ideas are insulting and designed to turn the perp into the victim. Sorry, but I'm not in a mood to play the victim game, and certainly not in a mood to play it with Breitbart.

And i have no idea why Eric Cantor has anything to do with the John Lewis, except that there's definitive information contradicting what he was claiming, and that information was available within a couple of hours of his claim of being targeted by pro HCR people; that, and he still hasn't retracted his claim that the bullet was aimed at him.

122 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:54:49am

Crazy Lady claims she's a victim too.....
Rep. Michele Bachmann Says Her Property Was Vandalized & She Received Threats (Video)

123 Four More Tears  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:54:50am

re: #120 SanFranciscoZionist

"Congressman! Congressman! You can't vote for this bill! The figgers don't add up!"

It's a cookbook!

124 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:55:00am

re: #117 stayfrosty

Maybe Clyburn faxed that picture of a noose to himself, too.

Clyburn actually had some of the best lines on this:

"It doesn't make me nervous as all," the congressman said, when asked how the mob-like atmosphere made him feel. "In fact, as I said to one heckler, I am the hardest person in the world to intimidate, so they better go somewhere else."

125 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:55:08am

re: #117 stayfrosty

Maybe so. So please show me the audio which recorded any word even remotely resembling any of those. //

Let's start with the one Rep. Jackson took while standing right next to Rep. Lewis, walking through the crowd no more than a couple feet from him.

Are you obtuse? It's a cell phone video. Taken from the middle of an angry throng of people, many of whom are also yelling. And you expect the audio quality to be pristine enough to pick out individual people's shouts?

126 Political Atheist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:55:20am

[Link: www.washingtontimes.com...]

CBO report: Debt will rise to 90% of GDP
This is very scary indeed.

127 garhighway  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:55:22am

re: #116 JasonA

Are you f*ck*ing kidding me???
Road rage, accident centers on Obama bumper sticker
Get a grip. Seriously.

Lefties did it too, so get over it./

128 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:55:55am

re: #112 jamesfirecat

Maybe he thought it was an especially blustery day so he shouted "TIGGER!"

He's a bouncy, pouncy, flouncy and a trouncy Tigger!

129 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:56:37am

Maybe the guy was a grave digger and he wanted to shout out his career.
DIGGER!

130 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:57:20am

re: #116 JasonA

Are you f*ck*ing kidding me???
Road rage, accident centers on Obama bumper sticker


Get a grip. Seriously.

Oh, everyone, let's calm WAY down.

131 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:57:35am

re: #60 SanFranciscoZionist

I was gonna say "dickweeds", but yours was better.

132 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:57:43am

re: #114 Lidane

I always hate passive-aggressive bullshit like this. If you want to call him a liar, own it. Say it out loud. Don't hide behind that whole "I'm just asking questions!" malarkey.

So if one is unsure should one be banned from expressing one's doubts?

133 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:57:52am

Job Recruiters can be such assholes. I realize it's their job to sell you on someone, but stop with the "THEY'VE GOT OTHER OFFERS ON THE TABLE!" bullshit. The company I was just threatened with losing a candidate to only has a splash screen, and a link to a twitter page. Don't they think I'm going to check that shit out?

134 Mark Pennington  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:58:31am

Welcome to the New GOP and to the New America. It’s not your father’s GOP, it’s not your father’s America. It’s your grandfather’s.

Melissa Harris Lacewell wrote an excellent article about GOP elected officials and their secessionist rhetoric.
Is this the Birth of a Nation?

135 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:58:50am

re: #12 Killgore Trout

I looked through some flickr collections last night to see if anyone took a clear picture of the flag. I couldn't find it but I didn't spend a lot of time on it. It certainly looks like that Nazi "Y" flag but it could be anything. Tea Party people use all kinds of old colonial era flags and even make up their own flags. There's no way to be certain about it.

I also looked very closely at that flag and at a state flag of Tennessee. It is possible, just possible, that a low-res blowup of the TN state flag might cause the blue background to appear as the "Y" symbol and the white stars to appear as a white background.

But that's only if you have a couple of drinks.

136 Political Atheist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:59:03am

re: #123 JasonA

One up for the SciFi reference

137 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:59:04am

re: #99 drcordell

Yeah, maybe someone was yelling "chigger" because they saw a bug on his shoulder. Or maybe they were yelling "digger" because they feel he was digging us too deep into national debt. Or maybe they yelled "bigger" because they thought the government was increasing too rapidly.

I know for certain that cell phone microphones are amazing at picking up a single voice at a distance in the middle of a huge crowd of people. It's super suspicious to me as well that it's nowhere on any of the videos.

Chigger! Wigger. Rigger. Figure. Trigger.

Nope. I'd know the difference between any of the rhyming words.

138 9Iron  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:59:19am

Just jumping in here, really not trying to flame the thread:

Do most people here think that the majority of attendees at tea parties are bigots, rednecks, homophobes, etc. that they appear to me at least are trying to be portrayed as? Or do more people think that there are idiots in every crowd, and when someone says something stupid they deserved to be slapped down (figuratively speaking)? I don't know if somebody said something racist to Lewis or homophobic to Frank, although it does seem to me that if there was something to it it would have already been blasted all over the news. That being said, is the issue here with one or two idiots that, or is the thinking here that everyone in the crowd is a bunch of idiots simply by reason of a differing view? I'm just trying to figure out the hate of the tea partiers, is it the bad apples (which is there on the left as well) or is it the political views that they promote?

139 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:00:23am

re: #138 9Iron

Just jumping in here, really not trying to flame the thread:

Do most people here think that the majority of attendees at tea parties are bigots, rednecks, homophobes, etc. that they appear to me at least are trying to be portrayed as? Or do more people think that there are idiots in every crowd, and when someone says something stupid they deserved to be slapped down (figuratively speaking)? I don't know if somebody said something racist to Lewis or homophobic to Frank, although it does seem to me that if there was something to it it would have already been blasted all over the news. That being said, is the issue here with one or two idiots that, or is the thinking here that everyone in the crowd is a bunch of idiots simply by reason of a differing view? I'm just trying to figure out the hate of the tea partiers, is it the bad apples (which is there on the left as well) or is it the political views that they promote?

The GOP is racist... does that answer you question?

140 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:00:48am

re: #134 beekiller
Fuck off! GOP=Tea Party, ok, SDS=Dems.

141 jamesfirecat  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:01:06am

re: #138 9Iron

Just jumping in here, really not trying to flame the thread:

Do most people here think that the majority of attendees at tea parties are bigots, rednecks, homophobes, etc. that they appear to me at least are trying to be portrayed as? Or do more people think that there are idiots in every crowd, and when someone says something stupid they deserved to be slapped down (figuratively speaking)? I don't know if somebody said something racist to Lewis or homophobic to Frank, although it does seem to me that if there was something to it it would have already been blasted all over the news. That being said, is the issue here with one or two idiots that, or is the thinking here that everyone in the crowd is a bunch of idiots simply by reason of a differing view? I'm just trying to figure out the hate of the tea partiers, is it the bad apples (which is there on the left as well) or is it the political views that they promote?

I for one worry based on the fact that it seems like NOBODY within the tea party seems to be trying to sort through the barrel and toss out the bad apples. It suggests that the other apples in the barrel might be equally worm ridden, they just hide it better.....

142 reine.de.tout  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:01:23am

re: #138 9Iron

Just jumping in here, really not trying to flame the thread:

Do most people here think that the majority of attendees at tea parties are bigots, rednecks, homophobes, etc. that they appear to me at least are trying to be portrayed as? Or do more people think that there are idiots in every crowd, and when someone says something stupid they deserved to be slapped down (figuratively speaking)? I don't know if somebody said something racist to Lewis or homophobic to Frank, although it does seem to me that if there was something to it it would have already been blasted all over the news. That being said, is the issue here with one or two idiots that, or is the thinking here that everyone in the crowd is a bunch of idiots simply by reason of a differing view? I'm just trying to figure out the hate of the tea partiers, is it the bad apples (which is there on the left as well) or is it the political views that they promote?

It's the bad apples, who just happen to be the ones running the show.

143 Silvergirl  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:02:32am

re: #137 MandyManners

Chigger! Wigger. Rigger. Figure. Trigger.

Nope. I'd know the difference between any of the rhyming words.

Ojoe advertising the Whigs again?

Be a WHIGGER!

144 reine.de.tout  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:03:04am

re: #142 reine.de.tout

It's the bad apples, who just happen to be the ones running the show.

And 9iron - further - when Killgore started harping on the Tea Parties, I did not believe him just because he said so.

What I did was my own research, I looked into the leadership and promoters of my local tea party organization. And I did not like what I saw.

145 jamesfirecat  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:03:45am

re: #144 reine.de.tout

And 9iron - further - when Killgore started harping on the Tea Parties, I did not believe him just because he said so.

What I did was my own research, I looked into the leadership and promoters of my local tea party organization. And I did not like what I saw.

Everybody remember the Tea Party organizer with the sign that Charles posted pics of a while back?

146 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:03:45am

re: #98 SanFranciscoZionist

Someone accused the dog of being a DINO, and that it was actually a liberal cat-supporter.

//

147 9Iron  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:03:46am

139 Walter L. Newton

I'm conservative, vote R, does that make me a racist?

148 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:04:41am

re: #147 9Iron
According to some folks...YES

149 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:04:48am

re: #147 9Iron

139 Walter L. Newton

I'm conservative, vote R, does that make me a racist?

According to what I am reading in the left media... yep.

150 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:05:02am

Why is everone getting their knickers in a knot?

151 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:05:03am

re: #138 9Iron

Just jumping in here, really not trying to flame the thread:

Do most people here think that the majority of attendees at tea parties are bigots, rednecks, homophobes, etc. that they appear to me at least are trying to be portrayed as? Or do more people think that there are idiots in every crowd, and when someone says something stupid they deserved to be slapped down (figuratively speaking)? I don't know if somebody said something racist to Lewis or homophobic to Frank, although it does seem to me that if there was something to it it would have already been blasted all over the news. That being said, is the issue here with one or two idiots that, or is the thinking here that everyone in the crowd is a bunch of idiots simply by reason of a differing view? I'm just trying to figure out the hate of the tea partiers, is it the bad apples (which is there on the left as well) or is it the political views that they promote?

As far as I'm aware, nobody in the Tea Party "leadership" has ever ejected anyone from a gathering on account of obnoxious behavior. I have never heard anyone who has the support of the tea partiers acknowledge that there are a lot of loud idiots in the movement, much less denounce them. So even if they aren't all racist lunatics, silence is consent.

152 jamesfirecat  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:05:17am

re: #147 9Iron

139 Walter L. Newton

I'm conservative, vote R, does that make me a racist?

I think you recalibrate your sarcasm detector my friend....

153 reine.de.tout  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:05:31am

re: #145 jamesfirecat

Everybody remember the Tea Party organizer with the sign that Charles posted pics of a while back?

Heh.
Yes.
I'm not excusing him OR the tea party organization, but there is some indication that the Texas Tea Party org. does not wish to be associated with that particular guy. No matter, IMO, there's plenty of other crazy to go around in the Tea Party organizations.

154 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:06:03am

re: #147 9Iron

139 Walter L. Newton

I'm conservative, vote R, does that make me a racist?

No but the political party you support with your vote implicitly supports racism.

155 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:06:18am

re: #152 jamesfirecat

I think you recalibrate your sarcasm detector my friend...

Don't tell me what to do...

156 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:06:32am

re: #146 oaktree

Someone accused the dog of being a DINO, and that it was actually a liberal cat-supporter.

//

Was it the Flintstones?

157 stayfrosty  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:07:00am

re: #154 drcordell

No but the political party you support with your vote implicitly supports racism.

Do tell.

158 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:07:12am

re: #138 9Iron

Breitbart is the big idiot here.

159 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:07:26am

re: #138 9Iron

Just jumping in here, really not trying to flame the thread:

Do most people here think that the majority of attendees at tea parties are bigots, rednecks, homophobes, etc. that they appear to me at least are trying to be portrayed as? Or do more people think that there are idiots in every crowd, and when someone says something stupid they deserved to be slapped down (figuratively speaking)? I don't know if somebody said something racist to Lewis or homophobic to Frank, although it does seem to me that if there was something to it it would have already been blasted all over the news. That being said, is the issue here with one or two idiots that, or is the thinking here that everyone in the crowd is a bunch of idiots simply by reason of a differing view? I'm just trying to figure out the hate of the tea partiers, is it the bad apples (which is there on the left as well) or is it the political views that they promote?

I assume most tea party activists are decent people (I include rednecks in that category, BTW).

My concern with the tea parties as a phenomenon is primarily that they:

a. Appear to be lead by people who are either crazy, or actively fanning people's fears for profit, or both.
b. Are telling and sharing with one another, bigger and bigger lies about the current political situation.
c. Are highly unhelpful in developing a strong conservative or Republican movement to bring into the post-Bush era.
d. Are actively paranoid.
e. Are actively allying with racist, insane, anti-American, revisionist and secessionist elements on the right- and left-wing fringe.

I have some other problems with them too, but my coffee break is limited.

I hope this answers your question.

160 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:07:26am

re: #154 drcordell
That's BS.

161 Gordon Marock  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:07:40am

My wife is an Obama supporter, and she made some very violent threats toward me.

162 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:07:56am

re: #143 Silvergirl

Ojoe advertising the Whigs again?

Be a WHIGGER!

Uh, that means something else...

163 9Iron  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:08:05am

Really? Because I believe in smaller government intrusion into my life I don't like people of color? I just want to be clear here.

There were loads and loads of bad apples in the protests the liberals were launching on the other side during the Bush years. I suppose that most of you will denounce the democrat party because of that as well, right?

164 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:08:25am

re: #155 Walter L. Newton

Don't tell me what to do...

Sing it, man.

165 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:08:48am

re: #161 Gordon Marock

My wife is an Obama supporter, and she made some very violent threats toward me.

That sounds like a personal problem.

166 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:09:24am

re: #163 9Iron

Really? Because I believe in smaller government intrusion into my life I don't like people of color? I just want to be clear here.

There were loads and loads of bad apples in the protests the liberals were launching on the other side during the Bush years. I suppose that most of you will denounce the democrat party because of that as well, right?

Back away from the immediate tu coque and start over please.

167 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:09:34am

re: #163 9Iron

Really? Because I believe in smaller government intrusion into my life I don't like people of color? I just want to be clear here.

There were loads and loads of bad apples in the protests the liberals were launching on the other side during the Bush years. I suppose that most of you will denounce the democrat party because of that as well, right?

I had tu quoque for lunch yesterday. Do I have to have it again today?

168 jamesfirecat  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:09:40am

re: #155 Walter L. Newton

Don't tell me what to do...

Umm... I was suggest that 9Iron was the one who needed to recalibrate his sarcasm detector, not you Walter....

169 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:09:41am

re: #161 Gordon Marock

My wife is an Obama supporter, and she made some very violent threats toward me.

In bed?

170 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:09:54am

re: #161 Gordon Marock

My wife is an Obama supporter, and she made some very violent threats toward me.

I'm a Sith Lord and have to go to the bathroom...

171 Silvergirl  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:09:57am

re: #162 SanFranciscoZionist

Uh, that means something else...

Another reason the Whig Party will never fly.

172 reine.de.tout  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:10:00am

re: #163 9Iron

Really? Because I believe in smaller government intrusion into my life I don't like people of color? I just want to be clear here.

There were loads and loads of bad apples in the protests the liberals were launching on the other side during the Bush years. I suppose that most of you will denounce the democrat party because of that as well, right?

The D's and those liberal protesters were denounced roundly here while Bush was President.

Bush is no longer President.

173 stayfrosty  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:10:25am

By the way, the N-word was heard shouted "15 times" by Rep. Lewis. I bet I can run walk through that crowd with a Motorola DynaTAC and still pick up at least one slur with it being shouted loud enough for a 70-year old man to hear it 15 times.

174 stayfrosty  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:10:45am

run walk

175 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:10:53am

re: #166 oaktree
WTF is Tu coque? No habla french.

176 Gordon Marock  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:10:56am

re: #169 SanFranciscoZionist

In bed?

I'm not sure I should say.

177 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:11:10am

Of course being a conservative and Republican doesn't make you racist. My problem is honestly the paranoia of the movements like acting that Obama's going to turn this in to the Soviet Union and that he's a dictator. I gave people shit for making Bush out to be Hitler since not only was it completely unfounded but it undermined just how evil the Nazis were.

178 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:11:25am

re: #157 stayfrosty

Do tell.

re: #160 pingjockey

That's BS.

Really guys? You need some examples?

[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

[Link: thinkprogress.org...]

[Link: www.bobcesca.com...]

[Link: rawstory.com...]

[Link: tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

[Link: www.au.org...]

[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

179 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:11:27am

re: #167 wrenchwench

I had tu quoque for lunch yesterday. Do I have to have it again today?

Maybe just have one quoque today.

180 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:11:54am

re: #168 jamesfirecat

Umm... I was suggest that 9Iron was the one who needed to recalibrate his sarcasm detector, not you Walter...

Stay out of my comments...

181 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:11:55am

re: #176 Gordon Marock

I'm not sure I should say.

Well, I suggest looking up your local domestic abuse hotline on that, but the Lizards are a good emotional support group.

182 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:11:57am

re: #138 9Iron

Your question is kind of confusing.

No, I don't think everyone at a tea party rally is a racist.

No, I don't 'hate' them because they promote different 'political views' from me.

What are you actually asking that's in any way a real question?

183 jamesfirecat  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:12:33am

re: #175 pingjockey

WTF is Tu coque? No habla french.

Its not french its Latin, its a fancy way of saying that shouting "but the other side/person/people do(es) it too!" does not a good argument for explaining bad behavior make.

184 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:12:47am

re: #179 Spare O'Lake

Maybe just have one quoque today.

A mixed platter, with one quoque and a strawman? Fried talking points on the side?

185 Lidane  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:12:56am

re: #175 pingjockey

WTF is Tu coque? No habla french.

Tu quoque

186 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:13:11am

re: #175 pingjockey

WTF is Tu coque? No habla french.

Sorry. Mis-spelling on my part.

Tu quoque (pronounced /tuːˈkwoʊkwiː/, from Latin for "You, too" or "You, also") is a Latin term that describes a kind of logical fallacy. A tu quoque argument attempts to discredit the opponent's position by asserting his failure to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. It is considered an ad hominem argument, since it focuses on the party itself, rather than its positions.[1]

Arguing that the "[other group] did it too" won't fly here for the most part.

187 Gordon Marock  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:13:32am

re: #181 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, I suggest looking up your local domestic abuse hotline on that, but the Lizards are a good emotional support group.

Yeah, but they may take my Wife's side!!!

188 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:13:44am

re: #178 drcordell
I see, Thanks. Didn't know I was a racist, bigot, homophobe. I'll take a plane to Arkansas and get a robe from one of my dem relatives so I can go to the Repub caucus. Thanks for straightening me out.

189 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:13:47am

re: #173 stayfrosty

So you are directly saying he's lying now.

190 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:14:04am

re: #186 oaktree

Arguing that the "[other group] did it too" won't fly here for the most part.

Which isn't to say that we don't do it all the time, just that we know what it's called.

191 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:14:08am

I'll repeat this again for the benefit of those who can't seem to grasp what I am getting at. The GOP implicitly supports and tolerates racism and racist members of its party. This does not mean that all Republicans are racists. Can you wrap your minds around this distinction fellas?

192 reine.de.tout  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:14:09am

re: #175 pingjockey

WTF is Tu coque? No habla french.

IMO, making a claim of "tu quoque" is often a way of ending a conversation rather than participating in it, as SFZ participated here:.

re: #159 SanFranciscoZionist

193 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:14:14am

re: #188 pingjockey

Who is calling you a racist bigot homophobe, please?

194 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:14:21am

re: #183 jamesfirecat
Ah, didn't look latin.

195 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:14:53am

re: #178 drcordell

Are you aware that you just linked to almost 100% loony left sites that you probably shouldn't even go to, unless looking for comic relief?

196 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:14:59am

re: #182 Obdicut

Your question is kind of confusing.

No, I don't think everyone at a tea party rally is a racist.

No, I don't 'hate' them because they promote different 'political views' from me.

What are you actually asking that's in any way a real question?

It was a rhetorical question, silly.

197 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:15:03am

re: #188 pingjockey

I see, Thanks. Didn't know I was a racist, bigot, homophobe. I'll take a plane to Arkansas and get a robe from one of my dem relatives so I can go to the Repub caucus. Thanks for straightening me out.

Again, see #191. The statement "The Republican party condones racism" does not equate to "All Republicans are racists."

198 stayfrosty  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:15:11am

re: #191 drcordell

I'll repeat this again for the benefit of those who can't seem to grasp what I am getting at. The GOP implicitly supports and tolerates racism and racist members of its party. This does not mean that all Republicans are racists. Can you wrap your minds around this distinction fellas?

And Barack Obama implicitly supported the views of Jeremiah Wright for 20+ years. Does that make him an anti-Semite?

199 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:15:29am

re: #183 jamesfirecat

Its not french its Latin, its a fancy way of saying that shouting "but the other side/person/people do(es) it too!" does not a good argument for explaining bad behavior make.

Well, Latin is descended from French so it's kinda the same thing.

200 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:15:34am

re: #193 Obdicut
If some of the GOP support these idiot tea baggers, all repubs support these morons is the vibe I'm getting.

201 Mark Pennington  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:15:38am

re: #140 pingjockey

Fuck off! GOP=Tea Party, ok, SDS=Dems.

No, you fuck off. Unless you are a GOP official, I wasn't talking about you.
I am well aware that all republicans are not racist. I just recently married a registered republican(my own personal reine.de.tout) who is not racist but does not feel comfortable with all the rhetoric. She's not an apologist either.

202 Gordon Marock  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:15:51am

Have a good weekend, all.

203 jamesfirecat  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:16:06am

re: #199 cliffster

Well, Latin is descended from French so it's kinda the same thing.

In the sense that I and my father are the same thing, yes.....

204 Lidane  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:16:32am

re: #199 cliffster

Well, Latin is descended from French so it's kinda the same thing.

Other way around. Latin is older than French.

205 reine.de.tout  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:16:45am

re: #201 beekiller

No, you fuck off. Unless you are a GOP official, I wasn't talking about you.
I am well aware that all republicans are not racist. I just recently married a registered republican(my own personal reine.de.tout) who is not racist but does not feel comfortable with all the rhetoric. She's not an apologist either.

Aw
*blush*
I are flattered.

206 Stanghazi  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:16:52am

Here we go again.

Like I've said before, there's always the characters who show up, and cannot admit the fact of the post, but turn it into "not all Republicans are racist"

It's a definite strategy.

207 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:16:55am

re: #188 pingjockey

I see, Thanks. Didn't know I was a racist, bigot, homophobe. I'll take a plane to Arkansas and get a robe from one of my dem relatives so I can go to the Repub caucus. Thanks for straightening me out.

If your not with the plan, your with the klan.
//

208 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:16:58am

re: #198 stayfrosty

And Barack Obama implicitly supported the views of Jeremiah Wright for 20+ years. Does that make him an anti-Semite?

Wow you just can't seem to wrap your head around what I am saying. Bonus points for bringing up Jeremiah Wright in your response. There's another bonus point available if you can mention Kenya or Obama's birth certificate in your follow-up.

209 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:17:00am

re: #203 jamesfirecat

In the sense that I and my father are the same thing, yes...

I am my own grandpa

210 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:17:10am

re: #201 beekiller
IIRC, hasn't Boehner condemed this nonsense? MIchael Steele?

211 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:17:42am

re: #195 cliffster

TPM is not 'looney left'. And Charles has linked to them. Like here:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

212 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:17:49am

re: #204 Lidane

Other way around. Latin is older than French.

no way

213 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:18:26am

re: #192 reine.de.tout

IMO, making a claim of "tu quoque" is often a way of ending a conversation rather than participating in it, as SFZ participated here:.

re: #159 SanFranciscoZionist

A fair cop. I could have engaged in greater detail such as SFZ did.

However, I think I am not alone in finding that particular argument path tiresome in the extreme.

214 Four More Tears  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:18:30am

re: #212 cliffster

no way

Way.

215 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:18:34am

re: #211 Obdicut

TPM is not 'looney left'. And Charles has linked to them. Like here:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Shooting the messenger, and all that...

216 jamesfirecat  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:18:46am

re: #209 cliffster

I am my own grandpa

You couldn't have thrown in a Futurama reference with that?

Fine I'll do it myself...

217 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:18:49am

re: #175 pingjockey

WTF is Tu coque? No habla french.

Tu coque in the hand is not the same as one coque in the bush.

218 9Iron  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:19:07am

177 HappyWarrior

I like your reply (not necessarily that it matters!)

My point is that most dems had a reasonable disagreement during the Bush years, and a few idiots made it seem like anarchy. Most repubs have a reasonable disagreement with Obama, and the coverage of the bad apples is neither representative of the right, and media coverage is not in line with what was shown during the Bush years. Reasonable people can disagree, obviously, but when the opposition is portrayed as a frothing at the mouth rabid bunch of bible thumping, sheet wearing rednecks it tends to discredit the movement before the message even gets delivered. The media turned a blind eye to much of the violence of the protesters during the 2000's and running wild with the small minority during the early 2010's.

219 Silvergirl  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:19:20am

re: #207 Walter L. Newton

If your not with the plan, your with the klan.
//

Johnnie Cochran, is that you?

220 Mark Pennington  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:19:21am

re: #210 pingjockey

IIRC, hasn't Boehner condemed this nonsense? MIchael Steele?

Yes with a *wink wink* and a nod.

221 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:19:34am

re: #212 cliffster

no way

Hahahahahaha wow. Really showing off your intellectual chops there.

222 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:19:34am

re: #210 pingjockey

Steele has. Boehner has condemned and endorsed it almost simultaneously, in an amazing display of agility.

223 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:19:58am

re: #217 darthstar

Tu coque in the hand is not the same as one coque in the bush.

But if you go down to the corner market it is quite easy to buy a six-page of coque. :p

224 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:20:12am

re: #222 Obdicut
Fer cryin' out loud.

225 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:20:12am

PIMF Six-pack.

226 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:20:41am

re: #225 oaktree

PIMF Six-pack.

I thought you were talking about a magazine.

227 Political Atheist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:21:04am

re: #223 oaktree

But if you go down to the corner market it is quite easy to buy a six-page of coque. :p

Et Tu Quoque?

228 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:21:11am

re: #138 9Iron

Just jumping in here, really not trying to flame the thread:

Do most people here think that the majority of attendees at tea parties are bigots, rednecks, homophobes, etc. that they appear to me at least are trying to be portrayed as? Or do more people think that there are idiots in every crowd, and when someone says something stupid they deserved to be slapped down (figuratively speaking)? I don't know if somebody said something racist to Lewis or homophobic to Frank, although it does seem to me that if there was something to it it would have already been blasted all over the news. That being said, is the issue here with one or two idiots that, or is the thinking here that everyone in the crowd is a bunch of idiots simply by reason of a differing view? I'm just trying to figure out the hate of the tea partiers, is it the bad apples (which is there on the left as well) or is it the political views that they promote?

The Tea Party MUST condemn racism some of its hangers-on espouse.

229 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:21:32am

re: #218 9Iron

I really do understand that your argument is "things have always been like this". I also disagree. I think that during the civil rights movement, things were worse than before it, in terms of anger, protests, and physical violence.

Given that the gentlemen were speaking of were around for the civil rights legislation, don't you think we ought to pay attention to what they're saying?

230 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:22:04am

We're doing Latin punning without Cato? What has the world come to!

231 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:22:17am

re: #216 jamesfirecat

nice work

232 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:22:32am

re: #161 Gordon Marock

My wife is an Obama supporter, and she made some very violent threats toward me.

"Take out the garbage or I'll bust up your golf clubs" doesn't count.

233 Four More Tears  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:22:33am

re: #228 MandyManners

The Tea Party MUST condemn racism some of its hangers-on espouse.

Tea Party response:

234 9Iron  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:22:45am

re: 218
Edited wrong, posted two thoughts and didn't come out the way I meant.

What I meant to say: This shit happens all the time with both ideologies, don't make out the tea partiers out to be any worse than the left when Bush was in power, media coverage not withstanding.

235 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:23:02am

re: #221 drcordell

Hahahahahaha wow. Really showing off your intellectual chops there.

Well, I'm not smart like you. I don't know things like, French coming from Latin.

236 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:23:05am

re: #163 9Iron

Really? Because I believe in smaller government intrusion into my life I don't like people of color? I just want to be clear here.

There were loads and loads of bad apples in the protests the liberals were launching on the other side during the Bush years. I suppose that most of you will denounce the democrat party because of that as well, right?

We did here.

237 Lidane  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:23:39am

While it is true that some folks in the Tea Party movement are racists, I think a much bigger group of them are simply angry and confused:

Poll: Tea partiers afraid of ‘big government’ want the government to create jobs and rein in Wall Street.

While the right-wing tea party movement touts its rhetorical “aversion to big government,” a new Bloomberg national survey finds that many tea partiers are clamoring for more aggressive government action. The poll finds that large numbers of them want the federal government to act to create jobs and rein in Wall Street by restricting excessive executive bonuses:

At the same time, 70 percent of those who sympathize with the Tea Party, which organized protests this week against President Barack Obama’s health-care overhaul, want a federal government that fosters job creation.

They also look to the government to rein in Wall Street, with almost half saying the government should do something about executive bonuses. Supporters are also conflicted over whether private-enterprise elements should be introduced into government programs like Social Security and Medicare.

“The ideas that find nearly universal agreement among Tea Party supporters are rather vague,” says J. Ann Selzer, the pollster who created the survey. “You would think any idea that involves more government action would be anathema, and that is just not the case.”

The poll also finds widespread disagreement about what comprises a “socialist” program run by the government. Only 10 percent of tea party backers agreed that the Veterans Administration, the country’s “only true island of socialized medicine” where the government directly runs hospitals and services for veterans, is socialist. Meanwhile, 47 percent of responders thought that Social Security and Medicare, both of which are government programs, should stay public programs and not be privatized.

238 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:23:50am

re: #173 stayfrosty

By the way, the N-word was heard shouted "15 times" by Rep. Lewis. I bet I can run walk through that crowd with a Motorola DynaTAC and still pick up at least one slur with it being shouted loud enough for a 70-year old man to hear it 15 times.

Andy, go home.

239 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:23:53am

re: #228 MandyManners
Does the Tea Party have a national spokesman or is it kind of herding cats anarchy? I see the rallies and the people speaking but I haven't heard of a panel or group one could email/phone/write and tell them this nonsense has to stop?

240 Stanghazi  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:24:24am

re: #239 pingjockey

Does the Tea Party have a national spokesman or is it kind of herding cats anarchy? I see the rallies and the people speaking but I haven't heard of a panel or group one could email/phone/write and tell them this nonsense has to stop?

Sarah Palin?

241 ryannon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:24:36am

re: #129 HappyWarrior

Maybe the guy was a grave digger and he wanted to shout out his career.
DIGGER!

Probably just some old alternative-culture types. Maybe even Emmett Grogan's ghost!

242 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:24:40am

re: #234 9Iron

Why not? To me, it's rather obvious that things are worse than during the Bush era. I was around for it. They're worse than during the Clinton era, too. I was around for that too.

Why are you telling me that I can't compare things on my own and come to a conclusion? What makes you so special that you can see through the media's lies but I'm somehow a dupe?

Do you think the ADL and the SPLC are in on this media conspiracy too?

243 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:24:44am

re: #234 9Iron

re: 218
Edited wrong, posted two thoughts and didn't come out the way I meant.

What I meant to say: This shit happens all the time with both ideologies, don't make out the tea partiers out to be any worse than the left when Bush was in power, media coverage not withstanding.

Dude, you are killing me. Hit the little "reply" button in the top center of someone's post, and it'll get your comment started off so that it is pretty, like everyone else's.

244 9Iron  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:25:10am

229 Obdicut

Your right, things were probably worse then. But that doesn't give them absolute right to say whatever they want without subjecting them to some degree of skepticism. It's not like they don't have a dog in the hunt, right? It would be advantageous to them to discredit those that oppose them, right?

245 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:25:33am

re: #240 Stanley Sea
Nah, she's busy doing a reality show.

246 Four More Tears  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:26:03am

re: #245 pingjockey

Nah, she's busy doing a reality show.

And drawing crosshairs...

247 Lidane  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:26:10am

re: #235 cliffster

Latin is the basis for a lot of languages, not just French. It's just that few people take it as a class anymore, so often people don't realize this is the case.

248 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:26:15am

re: #244 9Iron

So, to be clear, you are also saying that Lewis and Clyburn are lying about people having used racial slurs against them?

249 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:26:46am

re: #244 9Iron

229 Obdicut

Your right, things were probably worse then. But that doesn't give them absolute right to say whatever they want without subjecting them to some degree of skepticism. It's not like they don't have a dog in the hunt, right? It would be advantageous to them to discredit those that oppose them, right?

But why in the world would you accept that skepticism from someone like Breitbart, who should be shunned for his views on race?

250 9Iron  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:26:54am

236 MandyManners

Yes, I remember that. I was wondering if there was many here that was here back then. Seems like quite a bit of turn over since Charles left the right.

251 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:27:04am

re: #246 JasonA
Hmm...Cross hairs on a map targeting states for the Nov. election. Yep, that's violent.

252 Four More Tears  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:27:20am

re: #247 Lidane

Latin is the basis for a lot of languages, not just French. It's just that few people take it as a class anymore, so often people don't realize this is the case.

Seems like it's down to us Catholic schoolers having to take Latin.

Gallia est divisa in partes tres...

253 Varek Raith  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:27:26am

Look, the Tea Party movement is radioactive. Best to steer clear of it.

254 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:28:15am

re: #247 Lidane

Latin is the basis for a lot of languages, not just French. It's just that few people take it as a class anymore, so often people don't realize this is the case.

Thank you, but enough with the lessons on second grade linguistics. It was a joke. My two year old son knows that, and he doesn't even talk.

255 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:28:20am

re: #234 9Iron

re: 218
Edited wrong, posted two thoughts and didn't come out the way I meant.

What I meant to say: This shit happens all the time with both ideologies, don't make out the tea partiers out to be any worse than the left when Bush was in power, media coverage not withstanding.

We bemoaned how the MFM ignored the lunatics on the Left during the Bush years.

256 keloyd  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:28:25am

"tu" and lots of qu's looks very French, tu in Latin translates to tu en francais, what/who/whom in Latin and French are qu**, but tu quoque is in fact Latin.

I really want to make the case that the left is just as bad or worse, partly because I hate the hippie and all his works and all his hemp products, partly because I have this underdog voice in my head that makes me start arguments when too many people are on one side, but the facts may not back it up this time, so I'm not sayin nothin...except...

What's the biggest Republican victory that could serve as a rough analogy to this? I'm thinking Gingrich's Contract for America. There wasn't much of an internet, and no blogs or preserved links from the media in '94. I remember the left going off its meds, but if there's no links, no proof, then I'm not going to make the case.

Still, it is a fact of nature that the Republican and Democrat party are both racist in degrees, Latin retorts notwithstanding. Our Southern Strategy lingers in a few places. Our blind eye to police corruption and the poor execution of the drug war is fueled by racism. Their infantilization of minorities is the greatest cause of 4/5 of Black children being illegitimate. All media stories about violence, epithets, bodily fluids where they don't belong, or vandalism should have more context, but the media will always have the attention span of a goldfish.

257 Stanghazi  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:28:44am

re: #251 pingjockey

Hmm...Cross hairs on a map targeting states for the Nov. election. Yep, that's violent.

No.

Targets on states, with the target's names listed below.

Also, the re-load twitter message that directed her fans to the map in question.

258 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:29:07am

re: #256 keloyd

Their infantilization of minorities is the greatest cause of 4/5 of Black children being illegitimate.

What the fuck are you talking about, dude?

259 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:29:18am

re: #234 9Iron

re: 218
Edited wrong, posted two thoughts and didn't come out the way I meant.

What I meant to say: This shit happens all the time with both ideologies, don't make out the tea partiers out to be any worse than the left when Bush was in power, media coverage not withstanding.

There were no death threats during the Bush years...otherwise, we would have seen them as we are the current ones. There were calls for impeachment (I had that bumpersticker myself), and there were complaints that our rights were being whittled away by the Patriot Act (they were, and still are), and there were complaints that the administration knowingly lied about Saddam's status as a threat to America and Iraq's neighbors (true, dat). But the pacifists weren't breaking congressional office windows, putting caskets on their lawns as threats (Cindy Sheehan's memorial to her son notwithstanding), or faxing nooses to them.

Sorry, but "they did it too!" isn't a rationale for the behavior we're seeing today.

260 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:29:23am

re: #239 pingjockey

Does the Tea Party have a national spokesman or is it kind of herding cats anarchy? I see the rallies and the people speaking but I haven't heard of a panel or group one could email/phone/write and tell them this nonsense has to stop?

You might to start with Dick Armey.

261 Four More Tears  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:29:39am

re: #251 pingjockey

Hmm...Cross hairs on a map targeting states for the Nov. election. Yep, that's violent.

"Don't Retreat, Instead - RELOAD!" probably isn't the best kind of rhetoric to pull out these days. Just sayin.

262 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:29:40am

re: #257 Stanley Sea
Ah.

263 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:29:49am

re: #254 cliffster

Actually, I may have just had a realization. Maybe my kid is talking after all.. it's not gibberish jargoning, it's greek!

264 reine.de.tout  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:29:50am

re: #213 oaktree

A fair cop. I could have engaged in greater detail such as SFZ did.

However, I think I am not alone in finding that particular argument path tiresome in the extreme.


No intent to insult you, and I do understand how things get tiresome.
I just happen to like seeing the reasons and explanations written out, I find it helpful to my own thought process.

265 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:30:31am

re: #261 JasonA
I didn't catch that! Bad image.

266 Lidane  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:30:34am

re: #254 cliffster

Ah, my bad. Sometimes it's hard to tell if someone is joking when all you have to go on is text. :)

267 Mark Pennington  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:31:08am

re: #251 pingjockey

Hmm...Cross hairs on a map targeting states for the Nov. election. Yep, that's violent.

I can't possibly know what her motives are for doing that but she has to know that in the current atmosphere how dangerous that is.

268 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:31:10am

re: #260 MandyManners
Does he have pull within the movement?

269 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:31:11am

re: #266 Lidane

Ah, my bad. Sometimes it's hard to tell if someone is joking when all you have to go on is text. :)

90% of communication is non-textual

270 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:31:50am

re: #267 beekiller
You would think so.

271 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:32:01am

re: #268 pingjockey

Does he have pull within the movement?

He's one of the organizers of one of the groups.

272 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:32:20am

re: #264 reine.de.tout

None taken. A polite call-out about a behavior you're concerned with is not an issue with me. And I can see how a retort like mine can be construed as an attempt to shut-down a discussion rather than an attempt to keep it on a productive course.

273 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:32:20am
274 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:32:27am

BREAKING -- Reports coming in that a South Korean ship is sinking near North Korea.

Earlier reports indicated may have been a North Korean torpedo, but the SK government is now taking a more cautious approach and saying it is too early to tell.

275 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:32:34am

re: #268 pingjockey

Does he have pull within the movement?

Google him.

276 9Iron  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:32:41am

248 Obdicut

re: #244 9Iron

So, to be clear, you are also saying that Lewis and Clyburn are lying about people having used racial slurs against them?

No, I'm not saying that! Like I said earlier, I wasn't there and probably only a handful were. I am saying that I am skeptical because I don't take ANY politician at their word and, like Cantor, they would have invested interest in what they are saying to be true. Not to be nuanced, because I hate that, but there definitely IS a difference between saying someone is lying and being skeptical about their claims. There is a reason video proof is so damning in a court of law versus taking someone's word for it.

277 webevintage  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:32:59am

Andrew Breitbart is a lying racist POS.


That is all.
Back to work.

278 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:33:12am

re: #267 beekiller
BTW, do you really kill bees? That'll get you into trouble around here. The orchardists have to have bees around for pollination.

279 Four More Tears  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:33:26am

re: #275 MandyManners

Google him.

And make sure you spell it "Armey" or you'll end up with something much different...

280 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:33:29am

re: #273 MandyManners

Mental health break.


[Video]

I am listening to a CD of a local guy, and right now he's singing his cover of that!

281 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:33:36am

re: #271 wrenchwench
Thanks much.

282 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:33:44am

re: #276 9Iron

I am saying that I am skeptical because I don't take ANY politician at their word and, like Cantor, they would have invested interest in what they are saying to be true.

So in other words, you think they may be lying about it?

If I'm skeptical of someone, what I'm saying is that there's a good chance that they're lying.

Would you say that there's a good chance that they're lying about this?

283 Mark Pennington  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:34:18am

re: #271 wrenchwench

He's one of the organizers of one of the groups.

Aren't conservatives turning on him now because of his views on Amnesty?

284 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:35:02am

re: #234 9Iron

re: 218
Edited wrong, posted two thoughts and didn't come out the way I meant.

What I meant to say: This shit happens all the time with both ideologies, don't make out the tea partiers out to be any worse than the left when Bush was in power, media coverage not withstanding.

Eh, the left generally don't like guns, so what are they going to do? write an angry letter at you? Threaten to leave the country? I didn't exactly hear any credible leaders like governors of Texas threatening secession on the left in the Bush era. ;)

I suspect part of the problem is the hyperbolic rhetoric and threats coming from the far right have more... credibility, if that's the right word. Precisely because:

a) the perception is that the right is more likely to have guns, and therefore more likely to use said guns, than the left wing, who ... tend to write angry letters and threaten to leave the country.

b) More importantly, it's not just the random crazy fringe group on the right, you have Congressmen, Governors and various state members of government who are using and riding the whole nonsense for their own gains (and hoping they don't get pulled under by the crashing waves).

(yes, I'm making some generalizations, but I do think the point is valid)

285 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:35:28am

re: #276 9Iron

being skeptical about their claims.

See #249. And maybe answer it?

286 9Iron  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:35:34am

259 darthstar

There were no death threats during the Bush years...otherwise, we would have seen them as we are the current ones.

Wow, what an incredibly naive statement that is. Please tell me your just trying to stir things up, right?

287 Political Atheist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:36:12am

re: #259 darthstar

There were Bush 43 death threats. Just google.

288 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:36:26am

re: #283 beekiller

Aren't conservatives turning on him now because of his views on Amnesty?

Armey's for or at least mild on amnesty? What I love is how they're going to rag on Obama if he even so much at hints at it and Reagan actually signed amnesty in to law in '86.

289 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:36:29am

Helium Balloon amazing space photo - March 2010

290 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:37:13am

Off to da bank so I can pay for my health insurance this month. I guarentee y'all that supported HCR that if my insurance gets buggered up, my ghost is gonna haunt you! They've been fantastic with my cancer care.
Have a good afternoon. See ya in a bit.

291 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:37:35am

re: #284 bloodstar

Eh, the left generally don't like guns, so what are they going to do? write an angry letter at you? Threaten to leave the country? I didn't exactly hear any credible leaders like governors of Texas threatening secession on the left in the Bush era. ;)

I suspect part of the problem is the hyperbolic rhetoric and threats coming from the far right have more... credibility, if that's the right word. Precisely because:

a) the perception is that the right is more likely to have guns, and therefore more likely to use said guns, than the left wing, who ... tend to write angry letters and threaten to leave the country.

b) More importantly, it's not just the random crazy fringe group on the right, you have Congressmen, Governors and various state members of government who are using and riding the whole nonsense for their own gains (and hoping they don't get pulled under by the crashing waves).

(yes, I'm making some generalizations, but I do think the point is valid)

The only people I remember on the left promoting secession was some kooky town in Vermont and most mainstream people on the left ridiculed them.

292 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:37:36am

re: #289 Killgore Trout

Helium Balloon amazing space photo - March 2010

[Video]

Is Balloon Boy in it?

293 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:37:36am

re: #287 Rightwingconspirator

There were Bush 43 death threats. Just google.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

294 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:37:51am

By the way, today's top SomethingAwful headline:


The Reptilian Invasion was an Inside Job

They're onto us!

295 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:38:06am

re: #283 beekiller

Aren't conservatives turning on him now because of his views on Amnesty?

I don't know. So I did a google, and see that you are correct, in a big way.

296 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:38:11am

re: #289 Killgore Trout

No valid media file(s) found :(

297 Mark Pennington  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:38:38am

re: #278 pingjockey

BTW, do you really kill bees? That'll get you into trouble around here. The orchardists have to have bees around for pollination.

I am extremely allergic to bee's and there's a long, silly story as to how my nickname(in real life) became the beekiller.

298 9Iron  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:39:00am

285 wrenchwench Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:35:28am replyquote

re: #276 9Iron

being skeptical about their claims.

See #249. And maybe answer it?

I'm not sure what you want me to answer. Do I accept skepticism because of Breitbart? No, he's a journalist and blogger, he wants web hits. I don't hitch my wagon to him.

299 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:39:01am

Afternoon all. Got here a little late, but this is just my take on the topic.

It seems logical that there are three possibilities regarding the "n"-word issue:

1. The two gentlemen never heard it, and lied about it.
2. The two gentlemen heard it, and are telling the truth.
3. The two gentlemen heard something, but not that word.

Number 1 seems unlikely, to say the least. These are, from what I've heard and read, honorable men, and there's no logical reason for them to lie.

Number 3 is possible I suppose. But it seems highly unlikely that both gentlemen heard the same thing, and both misinterpreted it the same way.

Number 2 is both highly likely, and I'd bet is what happened.

So, for myself, I'm going with Number 2. And whoever yelled that word at those two gentlemen is despicable.

300 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:39:55am

re: #295 wrenchwench

I don't know. So I did a google, and see that you are correct, in a big way.

Wow, I had no idea Armey supported amnesty. I had no idea I was to his right on an issue and I am pretty left wing on immigration.

301 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:40:05am

re: #286 9Iron

darthstar has a lot of self-awareness concerning his partisanship. I like it.

302 Stanghazi  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:40:26am

re: #289 Killgore Trout

File didn't link.

303 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:41:03am

re: #298 9Iron

So where does your skepticism about this stem from?

To me, it's quite obvious that there's enough morons and racists in this country to allow for some showing up and shouting at these guys.

Why is that a matter of skepticism for you?

Why are you saying there's a good chance they're lying about it?

304 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:41:11am

re: #299 subsailor68

Afternoon all. Got here a little late, but this is just my take on the topic.

It seems logical that there are three possibilities regarding the "n"-word issue:

1. The two gentlemen never heard it, and lied about it.
2. The two gentlemen heard it, and are telling the truth.
3. The two gentlemen heard something, but not that word.

Number 1 seems unlikely, to say the least. These are, from what I've heard and read, honorable men, and there's no logical reason for them to lie.

Number 3 is possible I suppose. But it seems highly unlikely that both gentlemen heard the same thing, and both misinterpreted it the same way.

Number 2 is both highly likely, and I'd bet is what happened.

So, for myself, I'm going with Number 2. And whoever yelled that word at those two gentlemen is despicable.

Good, logical presentation. Upding.

305 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:41:28am

re: #296 cliffster

No valid media file(s) found :(

Bummer, let me try again
Helium Balloon amazing space photo - March 2010

306 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:41:37am

re: #284 bloodstar

Let me also be very clear, I think guns are great, and I'm ok with people owning whatever guns they want to own. Heck, I personally am ok with the idea of owning a tank if you can afford it. I'd much rather see law abiding citizens with guns than just criminals running around able to pick their targets without any fear of someone actually being able to defend themselves.

With that being said, I think that if you own a gun, and you've been inflamed to believing that something *must* be done, then you're more likely to use that gun than someone who doesn't own a gun. That impulse reaction to do something *now* and you use what you have handy.

307 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:41:39am

re: #298 9Iron

285 wrenchwench Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:35:28am replyquote

I'm not sure what you want me to answer. Do I accept skepticism because of Breitbart? No, he's a journalist and blogger, he wants web hits. I don't hitch my wagon to him.

This is a case of he said/he said, and you are saying skepticism is called for, which is putting you on the side of Breitbart.

I wouldn't want to be there.

308 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:41:45am

re: #300 HappyWarrior

Armey is pro-business, that's all. Anything that is good for business or business owners, he likes. He's not really 'right'. He's corporate, heart and soul.

309 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:42:07am

Iraq election returns appear to give Malaki's challenger, Allawi the lead. It gives Allawi the opportunity to form a coalition government.

The full election results show former prime minister Ayad Allawi winning 91 seats, edging out Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki as results were released Friday for Iraq's 325-seat parliament.

The results mark a serious setback for al-Maliki but do not necessarily guarantee Allawi the prime minister's post, only the right to try to form a coalition government.

The results were based on numbers released by the election commission and compiled by The Associated Press. The commission released the seat allocation province-by-province and did not include an overall number of seats won by each coalition.

310 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:42:09am

re: #287 Rightwingconspirator

There were Bush 43 death threats. Just google.

And then Google the fact that death threats against Obama are up 200% compared with Bush. Then Google up video of what GOP speakers have said at tea parties that both explicitly and implicitly encourages violence.

311 keloyd  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:42:19am

re: #258 Obdicut

What the fuck are you talking about, dude?


What I'm talking about are the unhealthy incentives caused by the welfare state. Back in the day, the Christian view of certain minorities was that they were like children who needed looking after. My great grandparents were that way, good people grossly misinformed about the inherent equality of our fellow man. The welfare state kept lots of kids from getting the rickets or going to orphanages, but it also played its role in the poor not marrying, in children not having a man around the house. A patronizing flavor of racism is behind that, just as another flavor of racism is behind the Obama "African lion in the zoo, lyin African in the White House" signs. We've always had the violent Klan and the Lace Curtains Klan.

312 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:42:30am

re: #305 Killgore Trout

Still no workie. Befriend preview?

313 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:42:40am

re: #308 Obdicut

Armey is pro-business, that's all. Anything that is good for business or business owners, he likes. He's not really 'right'. He's corporate, heart and soul.

This is quite true.

314 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:42:44am

Reposted from last thread, because I think it's important.

This [the Frum story] is also an example of the rewards of being famous or notorious, take your pick.

"[Frum] acknowledges he was very seldom at the [AEI] office. But he maintains he developed and spread conservative ideas — AEI’s stated goal — with the 300,000 words a year that he writes for his blog, FrumForum.com; his weekly columns for CNN.com, The Week, and the National Post of Canada; his biweekly offerings for TIME and American Public Media’s “Marketplace”; and his three TV and three radio appearances in a typical week. He also landed Canadian Finance Minister James Flaherty for an AEI retreat last month that included donors."

In other words, his AEI post was a ginormous hand-job. He was getting $100k a year to lend his weight to the masthead, while getting paid elsewhere for everything he wrote. He was, at most, responsible for giving reach-arounds to "donors".

I'm not saying this is exclusive to the GOP, but it is how it works. Once you've kissed the right [!] asses, people will hand you an extra hundred grand annually just for the use of your name.

One of the reasons America is fed up with the "élites". We know we're being buggered, but rarely do we get a chance to see the buggery this plainly.

"Frum tells us that regardless of his dismay with the party, he’ll stay registered GOP."

Damn right he will. It's where the money is.

Footnote: If Frum writes 300,000 words for his blog, for which he was being indirectly paid $100,000 from AEI, that means he was getting 33.33¢ per word extra for something that presumably already pays for itself. I wonder, has he had the audacity to criticize Sarah Palin for her well-paying gigs?

315 simoom  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:43:24am

Speaking of Breitbart, the Tea Party "Showdown in Searchlight" is tomorrow, and he's a speaker at the event (along with Hanah Giles):

[Link: www.lvrj.com...]

Besides Palin, other advertised speakers include a bevy of conservative TV and radio talk show stars and columnists, including Jerry Doyle, Roger Hedgecock, Andrea Shea King and Andrew Breitbart; "Joe the Plumber," or Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher, who confronted Obama during his presidential campaign; 2008 Libertarian vice presidential candidate Wayne Allyn Root; Victoria Jackson, a former "Saturday Night Live" comedian; as well as ACORN video sting journalist Hannah Giles.

Many of the two dozen candidates seeking Reid's Senate seat also plan to join the Tea Party lineup as the Republican contenders, including GOP front-runner Sue Lowden, Danny Tarkanian and Sharron Angle, furiously compete for support from the movement and its potential swing voters, who could be key in both the June 8 GOP primary and the Nov. 2 general election.
...
Gov. Jim Gibbons, who's also facing a difficult re-election, is another top Republican who has announced he's coming to join the Tea Party event.

'Something to look forward to tomorrow :P //

316 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:43:46am

Damn, follow the link and watch at liveleak....

Helium Balloon amazing space photo - March 2010

317 Mark Pennington  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:43:51am

I hope you all have a great day. I have to head out for work.

318 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:44:24am

re: #311 keloyd

The welfare state kept lots of kids from getting the rickets or going to orphanages, but it also played its role in the poor not marrying, in children not having a man around the house.

How? And what is the connection to patronizing racism?

To be honest, this seems like another 'blacks don't have the intelligence to know the Democrats are the real racists' diatribe, and I'm really bored of those.

By the way, your figures for black illegitimate births are incorrect. If you want to continue talking about this, you might want to actually use the right numbers.

319 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:44:48am

re: #256 keloyd

The Contract With America was widely deplored in the MSM--remember the newsmagazine with the cover of a crying baby waving a flag, representing the voters that year? But its platform was popular enough for Bill Clinton to appropriate many elements of it, and add them to his own program.

It's not immediate obvious how the Tea Party phenomenon could have a similar sequel. People don't like politicians telling them to shut up and eat their spinach, even if the politicians turn out to be right.

320 9Iron  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:44:57am

307 wrenchwench Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:41:39am replyquote

This is a case of he said/he said, and you are saying skepticism is called for, which is putting you on the side of Breitbart.

I wouldn't want to be there.

If you want to get into that tit for tat, Castro just came out in favor of the health care bill, which puts you on the side of Castro.

I wouldn't want to go there.

I'm not saying you are on the side of a genocidal brutal communist dictator, but to follow your logic I could.

321 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:45:50am

re: #315 simoom

Speaking of Breitbart, the Tea Party "Showdown in Searchlight" is tomorrow, and he's a speaker at the event (along with Hanah Giles):

[Link: www.lvrj.com...]

'Something to look forward to tomorrow :P //

Is there any way to stop this?

322 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:45:57am

re: #314 Cato the Elder

I wonder, has he had the audacity to criticize Sarah Palin for her well-paying gigs?

The difference is, David Frum has never made himself out to be a populist. Nor has he ever made himself out to be a politician who is "fighting the elites" in Washington. Nor has he had any ambitions for public office. He has always been a hired intellectual gun. Palin has sought public office while badmouthing the very elite powers that she is now begging for cash.

323 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:46:19am

re: #316 Killgore Trout

Damn, follow the link and watch at liveleak...

Helium Balloon amazing space photo - March 2010

Wow, that's cool.

(And, an offer to Meet Sexy Women in my Area!)

324 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:46:30am

re: #320 9Iron

Castro hasn't committed genocide. Genocide isn't a word to just toss around.

Castro's an asshole, who has had political opponents killed. He's brutal, a communist, and a dictator. So there's no need to add a false charge on top of that.

And again: Where does your skepticism stem from?

325 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:46:38am

re: #320 9Iron

307 wrenchwench Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:41:39am replyquote

If you want to get into that tit for tat, Castro just came out in favor of the health care bill, which puts you on the side of Castro.

I wouldn't want to go there.

I'm not saying you are on the side of a genocidal brutal communist dictator, but to follow your logic I could.


Except you have no idea where I stand on the health care bill, but I know how you feel about John Lewis's statement.

326 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:46:42am

re: #255 MandyManners

We bemoaned how the MFM ignored the lunatics on the Left during the Bush years.

The media ignored the protests on the left because to do otherwise would bring criticism of being unpatriotic.

327 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:47:00am

re: #321 Walter L. Newton

Why would you want to stop it?

328 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:47:55am

re: #278 pingjockey

BTW, do you really kill bees? That'll get you into trouble around here. The orchardists have to have bees around for pollination.

There was an interesting science documentary a few months ago, on how domestic honeybees are dying off not because of a disease or parasite as originally thought, but because they are just getting worked to exhaustion.

329 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:48:26am

re: #326 darthstar

The media ignored the protests on the left because to do otherwise would bring criticism of being unpatriotic.

Not to mention the corporate ties that link many of the media companies with lucrative defense contracts. Or the millions of dollars spent by the Pentagon to pay retired military officials to espouse pro-invasion views when appearing on TV as "defense experts."

330 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:48:42am

re: #303 Obdicut

So where does your skepticism about this stem from?

To me, it's quite obvious that there's enough morons and racists in this country to allow for some showing up and shouting at these guys.

Why is that a matter of skepticism for you?

Why are you saying there's a good chance they're lying about it?


Why do you keep ragging on a person for being skeptical in general of anything that a politician says? It is a damn sound starting point, IMO.

331 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:49:30am

re: #330 Spare O'Lake

I've explained myself fully, I think.

So, you are also saying that there is a good reason to think that these gentlemen are lying about having been called racist slurs, because they're politicians? Do I have that right?

332 9Iron  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:49:32am

303 Obdicut

re: #298 9Iron

So where does your skepticism about this stem from?

To me, it's quite obvious that there's enough morons and racists in this country to allow for some showing up and shouting at these guys.

Why is that a matter of skepticism for you?



Because there is an invested interest for the left to portray opposition to health care as raving lunatics thus discrediting the one true conservative movement that threatens their power. That is reason to be skeptical. Plus, they're politicians, and I don't trust any of them on either side.

Why are you saying there's a good chance they're lying about it?

Now you're baiting.

333 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:49:59am

re: #279 JasonA

And make sure you spell it "Armey" or you'll end up with something much different...

Dick Army.

Ooopsie! I cannot imagine.

334 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:50:09am

re: #330 Spare O'Lake

Why do you keep ragging on a person for being skeptical in general of anything that a politician says? It is a damn sound starting point, IMO.

His basis for skepticism is Andrew Breitbart.

The politician is John Lewis.

Every court in the land advises a juror to consider the source.

335 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:50:11am

re: #328 The Sanity Inspector

There was an interesting science documentary a few months ago, on how domestic honeybees are dying off not because of a disease or parasite as originally thought, but because they are just getting worked to exhaustion.

I thought Bush was killing them.

336 9Iron  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:50:51am

324 Obdicut

Point taken on Castro and genocide. Let's just say he killed a hell of a lot of Cubans, I think we can agree on that, right?

337 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:50:54am

re: #332 9Iron

Because there is an invested interest for the left to portray opposition to health care as raving lunatics thus discrediting the one true conservative movement that threatens their power.

What is that one true movement, please? And it's just 'vested', not 'invested'.

Plus, they're politicians, and I don't trust any of them on either side.

Okay. Do you think that they were also lying about having been called those racial slurs during the civil rights marches they took place in?

338 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:51:52am

re: #335 Mad Al-Jaffee

I thought Bush was killing them.

I thought climate change was killing the bees?

339 reine.de.tout  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:52:02am

re: #325 wrenchwench

Except you have no idea where I stand on the health care bill, but I know how you feel about John Lewis's statement.

also, here's an interesting tidbit perhaps 9iron isn't aware of:
Castro is not a citizen of this country and so his pro or con stance on any issue carries no weight or influence whatsoever, unlike Brietbart who is a public figure and can have influence.

Sheesh.

340 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:52:30am

Here's Newt Gingrich speaking out strongly against the racism, death threats and general violence that has been stirred up during the health care debate:


I think the Democratic leadership has to take some moral responsibility for having behaved with such arrogance, in such a hostile way, that the American people are deeply upset.

SNIP

But I think the Democratic leadership has to take some real responsibility for having run a machine that used corrupt tactics, that bought votes, that bullied people, and as a result has enraged much of the American people. And I think it’d be nice for President Obama, Speaker Pelosi, and Majority Leader Reid to take some responsibility over what their actions have done to this country.

341 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:52:40am

re: #319 The Sanity Inspector

The Contract With America was widely deplored in the MSM--remember the newsmagazine with the cover of a crying baby waving a flag, representing the voters that year? But its platform was popular enough for Bill Clinton to appropriate many elements of it, and add them to his own program.

It's not immediate obvious how the Tea Party phenomenon could have a similar sequel. People don't like politicians telling them to shut up and eat their spinach, even if the politicians turn out to be right.

I have a Youtube clip somewhere of BHO telling Republicans to shut up about health care reform.

342 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:52:41am

re: #338 Walter L. Newton

I thought climate change was killing the bees?

Oh good lord, please don't start this up...

343 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:52:42am

re: #331 Obdicut

I've explained myself fully, I think.

So, you are also saying that there is a good reason to think that these gentlemen are lying about having been called racist slurs, because they're politicians? Do I have that right?

So, are you saying that I'm saying that you're saying that he's saying that politicians often lie?

344 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:52:49am

re: #328 The Sanity Inspector

Big Honey has no concerns about the peon worker class.

/

345 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:52:59am

re: #336 9Iron

Castro isn't really much of a mass-killer, not by 20th century standards, unless you count Cubans dying at sea escaping from Cuba.

My point was that you just said something demonstrably untrue while attempting to say that you're just 'skeptical' about the truth of something that Lewis and Clyburn are saying.

346 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:53:38am

re: #320 9Iron

That's below the belt.

BTW, how about using th "quote" button?

347 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:53:51am

re: #343 Spare O'Lake

Do you think it's likely that Clyburn and Lewis are lying, please?

I don't see any reason you couldn't answer that straightforward question.

348 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:53:53am

re: #342 cliffster

Oh good lord, please don't start this up...

[Link: www.wired.com...]

349 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:54:05am

re: #301 cliffster

darthstar has a lot of self-awareness concerning his partisanship. I like it.

My partisanship sailed a long time ago. I call bullshit wherever I see it. I just don't see the same level of animosity in "I could kill Bush!" shouted by an anti-war protester as I do in someone calling a congressman and saying "We know where you live." One is open, public venting of emotion. The other is intimidation. Granted, Bush did receive death threats--all Presidents do--and I agree that those people were fucked in the head for doing so, but the topic isn't what happened eight years ago, it's what's happening now.

Thanks.

350 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:54:16am

re: #326 darthstar

The media ignored the protests on the left because to do otherwise would bring criticism of being unpatriotic.

What?

351 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:54:23am

re: #338 Walter L. Newton

I thought climate change was killing the bees?

Who do you think is responsible for climate change?

352 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:54:35am

re: #343 Spare O'Lake

So, are you saying that I'm saying that you're saying that he's saying that politicians often lie?

Says who?

353 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:55:01am

re: #328 The Sanity Inspector

There was an interesting science documentary a few months ago, on how domestic honeybees are dying off not because of a disease or parasite as originally thought, but because they are just getting worked to exhaustion.

In bed.

354 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:55:04am

To Brietbart and the knuckle-draggers on his blog:

Fuck you, and go play leap frog with a unicorn.

I've been called a number of very bad things while holding various signs and flags. Usually the insults last but a mere second or less and even with multiple recording devices present and recording, those insults are rarely caught on video because it happens so very quickly.

I'm going to take Rep Lewis' word at face value and leave it at that.

355 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:55:08am

re: #351 Mad Al-Jaffee

Who do you think is responsible for climate change?

Ludwig.

356 9Iron  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:55:35am

339 reine.de.tout

Castro is not a citizen of this country and so his pro or con stance on any issue carries no weight or influence whatsoever, unlike Brietbart who is a public figure and can have influence.

Castro can have no influence in the affairs of the United States? Andrew Breitbart, a 20 something year old blogger has more influence in this country than Castro? Wow, you don't really believe what you just wrote do you?

357 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:55:49am

re: #338 Walter L. Newton

I thought climate change was killing the bees?

I thought bees were causing global warming.

358 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:56:12am

re: #357 MandyManners

I thought bees were causing global warming.

Only the jooish bees.

359 drcordell  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:56:13am

re: #350 MandyManners

What?

You heard right. Case and point, 7th anniversary of the Iraq War just this month. Rally in Washington DC coincided with a teabagger rally. Guess which one had more people in attendance? And guess which one received media coverage.

360 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:56:28am

re: #352 Walter L. Newton

Says who?

Who's on first.

361 keloyd  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:56:53am

re: #318 Obdicut

How? And what is the connection to patronizing racism?

To be honest, this seems like another 'blacks don't have the intelligence to know the Democrats are the real racists' diatribe, and I'm really bored of those.

By the way, your figures for black illegitimate births are incorrect. If you want to continue talking about this, you might want to actually use the right numbers.

OOPS, the CDC says 7 in 10, not 8 in 10 for 2006 here. NPR agreement here. I think I heard 8/10 on TV but not sure anymore. For white mothers, it's still too high at 1/3 and 40% for the US pop as a whole. Some of my good friends were born to parents who were foolin around before marriage, but the kids are still much better off with a stable 2 parent family, and the welfare state hasn't helped with that.

I made a broad point, which you interpreted even more broadly, but I'm standing by my original words. Treating any group like children is racist just like treating them like dangerous, foreign, threats to our women...and precious bodily fluids. I also stand by my point that recent hysterics are racist with some regularity, and as a Republican I won't 'quoque' my way out of that. I want to, but the facts just aren't there.

362 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:57:12am

re: #356 9Iron

Stop, stop, stop... use the fucking quote button on the comment you want to reference. For one thing, we want to see what you are responding too without having to go back up thread.

Just typing or clipping and pasting the number and name doesn't tell us shit what you are talking about.

Got it?

363 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:57:15am

re: #355 Walter L. Newton

He's not even in the thread, dude. Why try to start shit about him?

364 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:57:40am

re: #334 wrenchwench

His basis for skepticism is Andrew Breitbart.

The politician is John Lewis.

Every court in the land advises a juror to consider the source.

To be fair to him, he claims that his basis for skepticism is that they are politicians. BTW I believe Lewis, but I am not judgmental of someone who is skeptical, so long as they do not deny the overwhelming weight of the evidence.

365 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:57:45am

re: #358 Mad Al-Jaffee

Only the jooish bees.

Itsy-bitsy yarlmukehs.

366 Four More Tears  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:57:59am

re: #356 9Iron

339 reine.de.tout

Castro can have no influence in the affairs of the United States? Andrew Breitbart, a 20 something year old blogger has more influence in this country than Castro? Wow, you don't really believe what you just wrote do you?

Whoa. That guy must've had a rough life going by his looks.

367 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:58:05am

re: #363 Obdicut

He's not even in the thread, dude. Why try to start shit about him?

He is larger than his actual presence in a thread. He is a meme all to himself.

368 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:58:23am

re: #359 drcordell

You heard right. Case and point, 7th anniversary of the Iraq War just this month. Rally in Washington DC coincided with a teabagger rally. Guess which one had more people in attendance? And guess which one received media coverage.

I saw lots an lots of coverage in the MFM of the anti-war assholes.

369 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:58:26am

re: #356 9Iron

339 reine.de.tout

Castro can have no influence in the affairs of the United States? Andrew Breitbart, a 20 something year old blogger has more influence in this country than Castro? Wow, you don't really believe what you just wrote do you?

You think Breitbart is a 20 year old blogger?

I'm done until you catch up.

370 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:58:44am

re: #363 Obdicut

He's not even in the thread, dude. Why try to start shit about him?

Man up jerk... it was a joke... what the fuck are you, the thread police. ANd I told you the other day, I'm not talking to you, so type away...

371 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:59:45am

re: #328 The Sanity Inspector

There was an interesting science documentary a few months ago, on how domestic honeybees are dying off not because of a disease or parasite as originally thought, but because they are just getting worked to exhaustion.

How do you "work" a honeybee harder than it is inclined to work on its own? Depose the old Queen and enthrone a new, meaner one? Post drones with little whips at the entrances to the hive?

Serious question. I didn't see the program, so I'd like to know just how that works.

372 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:00:09pm

re: #364 Spare O'Lake

To be fair to him, he claims that his basis for skepticism is that they are politicians. BTW I believe Lewis, but I am not judgmental of someone who is skeptical, so long as they do not deny the overwhelming weight of the evidence.

Under ordinary circumstances that's a reasonable position, but see his #356.

373 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:01:04pm

Did the immigration rally get any attention last weekend? Heard they got up to 100,000 people there.

374 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:01:37pm

re: #361 keloyd


You're descending into utter vagueness. Is the existence of welfare treating blacks like children?

What is the connection between welfare and the high rate of out-of-marriage births in the black community, according to you?

375 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:03:08pm

re: #370 Walter L. Newton

Yes. You keep telling me you're not talking to me. While responding to my posts.

376 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:04:04pm

re: #347 Obdicut

Do you think it's likely that Clyburn and Lewis are lying, please?

I don't see any reason you couldn't answer that straightforward question.

My postion was made clear upthread, and I specifically addressed whether I thought they were telling the truth, so go read my posts for yourself. I really dislike the way you constantly and habitually try to twist and distort what others have said to suit your own agenda. It makes you sound like a third rate law student.

377 webevintage  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:04:12pm

Back.
So I thought that it had been Cantor's unmarked office outside of his district that had been hit with a bullet that was probably stray, but in the end it is probably the fault of John Lewis for walking though the crowd of Tea Party folks.

"The police report said a bullet was fired into the air and struck the window in a downward direction with enough force to break the pane but not penetrate the blinds. Lepley said the bullet landed on the floor about a foot from the window. Cantor occasionally uses the room for meetings, police said.

The pane was replaced yesterday morning.

There is no sign identifying the light-green building as the campaign headquarters for Cantor, although its principal occupants, Ray Allen Jr. and M. Boyd Marcus Jr., are well-known in the political community as advisers to Cantor. It is identified as the Reagan Building."
[Link: www2.timesdispatch.com...]

I feel kind of foolish now for commenting on DKOS that I could not see why Cantor would lie about what happened.

378 9Iron  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:04:28pm

362 Walter L. Newton

Seriously, I'm hitting the quote tabs and it looks like it on my screen. Am I missing something?

Stop, stop, stop... use the fucking quote button on the comment you want to reference. For one thing, we want to see what you are responding too without having to go back up thread.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

369 wrenchwench

Your right, I thought he was much younger than apparently he is. Whatever. That answers (indirectly ;>) those that think I get my opinions from Breitbart, I hardly know the man!

But that still doesn't take away from my point that Fidel Castro has had far more of an influence on our culture and politics that Breitbart will ever hope to.

379 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:04:41pm

re: #373 HappyWarrior

Did the immigration rally get any attention last weekend? Heard they got up to 100,000 people there.

Closer to 200,000, and no, there were several hundred people waving pictures of Obama as Hitler that required our undivided attention.

381 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:05:29pm

re: #378 9Iron

Try the Quote BUTTON next to the user's name.

382 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:05:39pm

re: #379 darthstar

Closer to 200,000, and no, there were several hundred people waving pictures of Obama as Hitler that required our undivided attention.

That's a lot of people too bad they didn't get any attention.

383 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:05:43pm

re: #376 Spare O'Lake

That's nice.

So if you believe them, why do you think that skepticism is a reasonable stance? Wouldn't believing them indicate you don't think doubting their word is reasonable?

I might seem like less of a third-rate law student to you if you were a little less dodgy in your argumentation. Most of your rationalizations assume pretzel-like shapes, over time.

384 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:05:56pm

re: #378 9Iron

362 Walter L. Newton

Seriously, I'm hitting the quote tabs and it looks like it on my screen. Am I missing something?

Your right, I thought he was much younger than apparently he is. Whatever. That answers (indirectly ;>) those that think I get my opinions from Breitbart, I hardly know the man!

But that still doesn't take away from my point that Fidel Castro has had far more of an influence on our culture and politics that Breitbart will ever hope to.


I'm beginning to think you are a troll.

385 Silvergirl  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:06:28pm

re: #380 Killgore Trout

Van Jones Talks Candidly About Truthers, Communism And His White House Departure

Before I click, it's all good, right?

386 ryannon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:07:06pm

re: #328 The Sanity Inspector

There was an interesting science documentary a few months ago, on how domestic honeybees are dying off not because of a disease or parasite as originally thought, but because they are just getting worked to exhaustion.

They often have to work two or even three jobs at a time just to make ends meet these days. And don't even mention their pension plans.

387 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:07:27pm

re: #356 9Iron


Castro can have no influence in the affairs of the United States? Andrew Breitbart, a 20 something year old blogger has more influence in this country than Castro? Wow, you don't really believe what you just wrote do you?

So make your case. Can you demonstrate to us using real life examples how old Fidel has more influence than Andrew Breitbart?

388 9Iron  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:08:00pm

re: #384 wrenchwench

I'm beginning to think you are a troll.

Oh no, that would be awful! I so value what you must think of me!

Thanks Darthstar for the tip, all that cutting and pasting was starting to piss me off!re: #387 eclectic infidel

389 9Iron  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:08:52pm

re: #387 eclectic infidel

So make your case. Can you demonstrate to us using real life examples how old Fidel has more influence than Andrew Breitbart?

Not to be flip, but how about the fact I can't smoke a Cuban cigar after dinner this evening?

390 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:09:07pm

re: #386 ryannon

They often have to work two or even three jobs at a time just to make ends meet these days. And don't even mention their pension plans.

Bees don't get pensions. When they get too old, they simply get throw out. It's the ideal retirement, if you're a bean-counting asshole.

391 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:09:11pm

re: #388 9Iron

dude, you suck at the internet ;)

392 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:09:19pm

re: #388 9Iron


Thanks Darthstar for the tip, all that cutting and pasting was starting to piss me off!

The internet is a complex thing.

393 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:09:45pm

re: #391 cliffster

dude, you suck at the internet ;)

Beat me by eight seconds!

394 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:10:02pm

re: #383 Obdicut

That's nice.

So if you believe them, why do you think that skepticism is a reasonable stance? Wouldn't believing them indicate you don't think doubting their word is reasonable?

I might seem like less of a third-rate law student to you if you were a little less dodgy in your argumentation. Most of your rationalizations assume pretzel-like shapes, over time.

You really are a piece of work. Piss off.

395 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:10:08pm

re: #393 darthstar

Beat me by eight seconds!

I, on the other hand, am awesome at the internet

396 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:10:13pm

re: #389 9Iron

Not to be flip, but how about the fact I can't smoke a Cuban cigar after dinner this evening?

And what the fuck does that have to do with the price of beans.

397 keloyd  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:10:24pm

re: #374 Obdicut

You're descending into utter vagueness. Is the existence of welfare treating blacks like children?

What is the connection between welfare and the high rate of out-of-marriage births in the black community, according to you?

The existence of welfare? no. Too much welfare? maybe. If the government is the breadwinner in the family, a strong marriage may be unaffected, but the incentives to stay in a rocky marriage are lessened. Children of the poor are much less likely to be in a 2 parent house than back in the day, see my CDC link upstairs. I'm on the outside looking in on this, but that's the jist of 100 editorials and wonks on TV my whole adult life. The link is widely accepted. Am I vague or do you just not realize I have blown your mind? ok back to work for me. yaaay :%P%

398 doubter4444  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:10:24pm

re: #356 9Iron

339 reine.de.tout

Castro can have no influence in the affairs of the United States? Andrew Breitbart, a 20 something year old blogger has more influence in this country than Castro? Wow, you don't really believe what you just wrote do you?

Dude, that's just stupid.
And Bitebart is 40 or more if he's a day

399 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:10:43pm

re: #385 Silvergirl

Before I click, it's all good, right?

It's a very interesting insight into who he is. I never paid much attention to the story at the time but he seems like a good egg.

400 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:10:48pm

re: #395 cliffster

I, on the other hand, am awesome at the internet

Years of one-handed typing, I'm guessing. :)

401 Silvergirl  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:10:50pm

re: #385 Silvergirl

Before I click, it's all good, right?

Read it. Well done.

402 Silvergirl  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:11:38pm

re: #380 Killgore Trout

Van Jones Talks Candidly About Truthers, Communism And His White House Departure

This is the one I meant to say "Read it, well done" about.

403 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:11:42pm

re: #394 Spare O'Lake

You really are a piece of work. Piss off.

The expert of circular logic is complaining about your pretzel. LOL.

404 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:11:44pm

re: #389 9Iron

Not to be flip, but how about the fact I can't smoke a Cuban cigar after dinner this evening?

I'm not too much of a cigar fan besides the occasional draw on a Panter cigarillo.

So, back to the topic at hand....Castro vs. Breitbart.

405 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:11:56pm

re: #389 9Iron

Not to be flip, but how about the fact I can't smoke a Cuban cigar after dinner this evening?

Dominicans are better.

406 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:12:48pm

Oh come on, there is no, absolutely none, racism by Right wing activists, there has never been a time when the Right has ever been associated with racism in the past either...

The pictures the Libs like to post were all manipulated by early versions of Photoshop on Univac computer systems. Like these ones, they are obviously forgeries of course...

Image: communistjews.jpg

Image: Integrationisillegal.jpg

///

407 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:13:25pm

re: #404 eclectic infidel

I'm not too much of a cigar fan besides the occasional draw on a Panter cigarillo.

So, back to the topic at hand...Castro vs. Breitbart.

I think Breitbart could take Castro in a fair fight, if Castro could stop laughing at Breitbart's wacky behavior long enough to actually engage him.

408 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:13:29pm

re: #396 Walter L. Newton

And what the fuck does that have to do with the price of beans.

Don't ask questions of the attention-seeking troll. It just wants to bother you.

409 Kragar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:13:57pm

Man, I focus on doing some work for a few hours and I come back to the Dick-jitsu world championships

410 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:13:59pm

re: #394 Spare O'Lake

I'm pointing out that you're giving soft support to 9iron's position, while saying that you believe it's wrong.

BTW I believe Lewis, but I am not judgmental of someone who is skeptical, so long as they do not deny the overwhelming weight of the evidence.

I'm judgmental of people who are skeptical for no actual reason.

What reason is there to be skeptical, other than ones that apply to the skeptical position? For example, if 9iron is saying-- as he is-- that they may be lying to make the Tea Part people look worse, isn't that position itself beggared, if that person would prefer that Lewis and Clyburn looked worse?

411 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:14:05pm

re: #406 ausador

Oh come on, there is no, absolutely none, racism by Right wing activists, there has never been a time when the Right has ever been associated with racism in the past either...

The pictures the Libs like to post were all manipulated by early versions of Photoshop on Univac computer systems. Like these ones, they are obviously forgeries of course...

[Link: i603.photobucket.com...]

[Link: i603.photobucket.com...]

///

What is the providence of those pictures?

412 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:15:32pm

re: #386 ryannon

They often have to work two or even three jobs at a time just to make ends meet these days. And don't even mention their pension plans.

And support all those drones who sit around all day drawing welfare pollen.

//

413 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:15:56pm

re: #397 keloyd

You haven't blown my mind in the least. You've said a lot of unconnected things and made no actual argument beyond a vague allusion that the government somehow weakens marriage by being the 'breadwinner'. You also are ignoring that the vast majority of black births that are out of wedlock don't occur due to a divorce, but due to the lack of a marriage in the first place, so your argument is way off target, anyway.

You haven't even made an argument, so I can't really argue against it.

414 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:15:58pm

re: #405 darthstar

Dominicans are better.

Hi darthstar! I'm with ya on that! But many are made/come from Cuban seed, which is very cool.

Here's a site that has tons of great cigars that I can't afford:

BestCigarPrices.com

415 Four More Tears  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:16:03pm

re: #411 Walter L. Newton

What is the providence of those pictures?

I think you mean provenance.

416 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:16:31pm

re: #371 Cato the Elder

How do you "work" a honeybee harder than it is inclined to work on its own? Depose the old Queen and enthrone a new, meaner one? Post drones with little whips at the entrances to the hive?

Serious question. I didn't see the program, so I'd like to know just how that works.

Beekeepers takes hives to different farms/orchards - wherever they are needed to pollinate plants. I think some of them make more doing this than they do from selling honey.

417 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:16:32pm

re: #407 darthstar

*sighs*

I didn't think iron9 would bother to make his/her case. I wanted to give him/her the benefit of the doubt, not down ding and see if he/she would actually answer. Where doth this optimism originate? I do not know.

418 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:16:46pm

re: #415 JasonA

I think you mean provenance.

Thanks for the correction...

419 simoom  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:17:35pm

re: #321 Walter L. Newton

Is there any way to stop this?

I realize that was almost certainly a rhetorical question, but I imagine the Tea Party will be around and getting a lot of media until the GOP is next in power (and then I'd be surprised if it didn't fade back to it's original relative obscurity).

420 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:18:15pm
421 Silvergirl  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:18:18pm

re: #409 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Man, I focus on doing some work for a few hours and I come back to the Dick-jitsu world championships

A daily event.

422 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:20:10pm

re: #416 Mad Al-Jaffee

I think his question is whether there is any theory/data about why worker bees "overwork".

Your reply seems to imply that if you put a hive out where there is a lot of unharvested pollen the bees will basically kill themselves/crash the hive trying to deal with it.

I'm curious about this as well since the last I heard about the phenomena they were still stuck around the cause being unknown since the virus being blamed was found to be more common than originally thought.

423 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:20:41pm
424 keloyd  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:21:07pm

Obdicut-
One more racism example from my real life - I taught undergrad college kids for 3 years at a middle-of-the-road quality state school. The black students were no smarter or stupider than the rest, but they collectively tried less hard. I thought maybe it's my imagination, but when I looked at absenteeism or homework with points off because it just wasn't turned in or complete, that's what I saw. They had spent their whole lives with mostly white teachers who just expected less of them than the white kids, and my class had lots of math in it. That kind of soft (left wing) racism does a little harm to a lot of people instead of the occasional (right wing) bullet doing a whole lot of harm to a few people. You tell me which is worse. Now I'm really off to work yaaay :%P%

425 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:21:44pm

re: #386 ryannon

They often have to work two or even three jobs at a time just to make ends meet these days. And don't even mention their pension plans.

We'll just take more of their honey, and feed some of it back to them, and everything will be swell.

426 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:22:25pm

re: #422 oaktree

From what I understand, they are moved a lot, which can cause trauma to the hive, and they're working a lot more than they would if they just stayed in one place. I don't know all of the details. My brother works with entomologysts. I'll have to ask him about it.

427 Gus  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:22:35pm

Andrew Breitbart writes his blogs in about the same amount of time it takes to take a shit. Only they're not as interesting and the value of his blogging is less then that of a stool sample or the contents of a septic tank.

428 Kragar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:23:41pm

re: #421 Silvergirl

A daily event.

Nah, usually, we just get exhibition matches.

429 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:23:42pm

re: #419 simoom

I realize that was almost certainly a rhetorical question, but I imagine the Tea Party will be around and getting a lot of media until the GOP is next in power (and then I'd be surprised if it didn't fade back to it's original relative obscurity).

Then again, much like the whole anti-war movement since the 2nd invasion of Iraq, Tea Parties could lose steam and members due to public opinion. I mean, let's say health care legislation continues to be tweaked and improved upon and people actually begin to reap benefits. When that happens, Tea Party goons are going to look like terrific jerks, as are Republicans. The anti-war rally I went to last Saturday was less than half-anti war (and weak at that) and more anti-Israel, anti-Imperialism. Even with war in Afghanistan, Obama IS in office, and by default the anti-war drive is slowing down considerably.

430 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:24:19pm

re: #311 keloyd

What I'm talking about are the unhealthy incentives caused by the welfare state. Back in the day, the Christian view of certain minorities was that they were like children who needed looking after. My great grandparents were that way, good people grossly misinformed about the inherent equality of our fellow man. The welfare state kept lots of kids from getting the rickets or going to orphanages, but it also played its role in the poor not marrying, in children not having a man around the house. A patronizing flavor of racism is behind that, just as another flavor of racism is behind the Obama "African lion in the zoo, lyin African in the White House" signs. We've always had the violent Klan and the Lace Curtains Klan.

Define 'welfare state', and the degree to which black Americans are more beholden to it than others.

431 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:24:27pm

re: #411 Walter L. Newton

What is the providence of those pictures?

That would be Provenance, and you forgot your sarc tag. (I hope)

432 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:25:20pm

re: #425 The Sanity Inspector

We'll just take more of their honey, and feed some of it back to them, and everything will be swell.

Do you really think it's a good idea to take these bees and send them back to work with a "buzz" on?

;-)

433 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:25:37pm

re: #410 Obdicut

It's what I said. Here we have a situation where in Lewis' case it is basically "he said, he said". There is an absence of overwhelming evidence one way or the other. The lizard said that he is skeptical of all politicians, and I can accept that position while at the same time personally choosing to give Lewis the benefit of the doubt. There is nothing inconsistent in my position.
Now go have a beer with your pretzel, and let go of my ankle.

434 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:26:32pm

re: #432 subsailor68

Do you really think it's a good idea to take these bees and send them back to work with a "buzz" on?

;-)

That stings.

435 John Vreeland  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:27:01pm

I've heard racial epithets used at these gatherings, but only amongst friends, never shouted out. And I have seen tea-baggers react negatively to them, too. I wasn't in DC on the day in question, though.

436 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:27:25pm

re: #426 Mad Al-Jaffee

From what I understand, they are moved a lot, which can cause trauma to the hive, and they're working a lot more than they would if they just stayed in one place. I don't know all of the details. My brother works with entomologysts. I'll have to ask him about it.

I worked for a beekeeper for a few years (best.job.ever). I'd get up at 4am, grab a 2-ton truck, drive up to a bee yard somewhere around Mt. Shasta, for example, load 120 colonies on the back of the truck, and drive them around to an alfalfa field in Scott Valley, or back down to an almond orchard near Chico (if it was pollinating season), and set them out. Bees are fine being moved...takes them about a day or so to figure out their new nectar and pollen sources, but they can be productive pretty fast. In the summer, we ran them to alfalfa fields and sweet clover fields in Montana, where we had a honey production operation. A single colony (stacked six boxes high) could make 15 to 20 lbs of honey in a single day. Multiply that by 120. We produced close to 600 barrels (55 gallon drums) of honey in a couple of months...good, clear, lovely stuff.

437 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:27:28pm

re: #434 Mad Al-Jaffee

That stings.

You wax eloquent.

438 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:28:23pm

re: #420 darthstar

iPhone users...you may want this app before Apple kills it.

Hard to be a gatekeeper when the walls are down...

439 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:28:32pm

re: #437 wrenchwench

You wax eloquent.

Thanks. I thought I may have bumbled that last post.

440 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:28:58pm

re: #439 Mad Al-Jaffee

Thanks. I thought I may have bumbled that last post.

I see a swarm of puns coming.

441 9Iron  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:29:06pm

re: #396 Walter L. Newton

And what the fuck does that have to do with the price of beans.

I can't believe I am even having this conversation! Fidel Castro, iron clad ruler of a communist nation 90 miles off of the Unites States coast for ballpark of 50 years, where there has been a trade embargo since before I was born, has no more influence than Andrew Breitbart? You're serious? Go around Miami and ask the people what Castro thinks and ask the same people what Breitbart thinks. You will get a hell of a lot more response about Castro I guarantee you! This conversation has turned surreal!

In real world, could we start with the Cuban missile crisis and end with Michael Moore's movie where he talked up their health care while making the case that the US needed radical change? There's so much in between, almost 50 years worth, that I don't really think we need to go into, do we?

Andrew Breitbart has more influence than Castro? Wow, people think that I'm just trolling?

I have to go pick up the kids from school. I'll be back later.

442 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:29:23pm

re: #439 Mad Al-Jaffee

Thanks. I thought I may have bumbled that last post.

Well, don't drone on about it.

443 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:30:19pm

I suppose there is one small silver lining to this awful cloud.

If the wingnuts are just flatly lying about whether or not anything racist was said, then the mere act of trying to cover it up, means that at least some of them still know it is wrong to shout the N word - particularly at elected representatives.

The whine about the "race card" meme was the first step in this process. By cuing up the rednecks to be insulted that they are somehow falsely accused of being racists, they get to take false umbrage as if the playing field is somehow unfair to them. Then they get more room to be racist and ignore it. They whine that everything is racist... aha... suddenly then, nothing is racist.

And it devolves into open spitting on and calling crude racial slurs to elected representatives - followed with indignant and ignorant trolls whining that everything is racist. They are deflecting the truth of the racism by dismissing it, and actually feeling that they are somehow the victims.

And of course the very real racism is then ignored and dismissed.

Only to grow larger because now the racists have even more room to publicly dare things that they would not have for 40 years.

I say this clearly to the wingnuts who want to knee jerk defend this. Please stop a moment and look clearly at what you are defending. It is evil. It is the darkest threads in the American psyche and anything other than absolute condemnation of it is a form of tacit approval.

The elected officials are not lying. Of course in this case they are not lying.

The racists are lying. So at least that is one good thing. They haven't gotten so bold yet to openly call this a good thing. Not yet. But they are getting there.

The

444 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:30:24pm

re: #442 wrenchwench

It's giving me hives, just to think about it!

445 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:30:25pm

Oh great! Now these puns have given me the hives.

446 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:30:31pm

re: #424 keloyd

The black students were no smarter or stupider than the rest, but they collectively tried less hard. I thought maybe it's my imagination, but when I looked at absenteeism or homework with points off because it just wasn't turned in or complete, that's what I saw. They had spent their whole lives with mostly white teachers who just expected less of them than the white kids, and my class had lots of math in it.

You are making the assumption that they 'tried less hard' because they had 'spent their whole lives with mostly white teachers who just expected less of them'. You don't actually have any reason to think that, except that it supports your preconceived notions.

And you are not in the least bit connecting that racism to the left, or to welfare, or to anything you were talking about. That sort of 'soft racism' does exist, certainly, but it's no more associated with the left than the right. It's the assumption of lack of capacity, for whatever reason.

Your contention was that liberal welfare policies have led to high rates of illegitimacy in the black population. You've done jack and shit to support this contention.

447 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:31:09pm

re: #445 subsailor68

One second ;)

448 Stanghazi  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:31:10pm

Sarah Palin:

But she said that media reports mischaracterized the conservative message as inciting violence.

"Take up your arms’ means voting,” Palin said.

[Link: www.oaoa.com...]

OK...

449 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:31:11pm

re: #445 subsailor68

Oh great! Now these puns have given me the hives.

Don't be scared honey ;)

450 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:31:15pm

re: #444 Floral Giraffe

It's giving me hives, just to think about it!

Hi Floral! Sigh, it's official: you're faster on the draw!

;-)

451 9Iron  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:31:22pm

re: #417 eclectic infidel

Sorry to disappoint you but I don't hit and run, am I'm not a troll.

Now I'm really out, just missed this while I was typing.

452 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:31:49pm

re: #450 subsailor68

Just don't get stung twice!

453 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:32:47pm

re: #452 Floral Giraffe

Just don't get stung twice!

That was a waspish thing to say.

454 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:32:49pm

re: #452 Floral Giraffe

Just don't get stung twice!

I need to buzz off soon and start the weekend.

455 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:33:31pm

re: #416 Mad Al-Jaffee

Beekeepers takes hives to different farms/orchards - wherever they are needed to pollinate plants. I think some of them make more doing this than they do from selling honey.

Does this "overwork" the bees? I can see how it might possibly do so, but I'm not an expert on the apiary arts.

456 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:33:32pm

re: #454 Mad Al-Jaffee

I need to buzz off soon and start the weekend.

I have to bug out and run some errands.

457 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:33:32pm

re: #454 Mad Al-Jaffee

I need to buzz off soon and start the weekend.

Be sure to comb your hair too!

458 palomino  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:33:55pm

re: #140 pingjockey

Fuck off! GOP=Tea Party, ok, SDS=Dems.

SDS? It's a miniscule organization compared to Teabag Central. Moreover, the Dems aren't anywhere near as cozy with SDS as GOP has become with Teabaggery.

459 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:34:30pm

re: #390 Dark_Falcon

Bees don't get pensions. When they get too old, they simply get throw out. It's the ideal retirement, if you're a bean-counting asshole.

I think all bees die on the job.

460 Gus  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:34:38pm

My advice to the Congressional Black Caucus would be to ignore this metropolitan hick, Andrew Breitbart. There would be nothing to be gained from a dialogue with this social cretin because there would be no credibility to be gained from this warped ideologue and his enraged gang of overgrown adolescents (aka his readership).

It is already self evident in the title of this jumble of word sewage he's concocted and where he has in the title, "Civil Rights Movement Jumped the Shark." The Tea Party just got off the ground with their atavistic and achromic side show and they jumped the shark soon after their first gathering. Mr. Breitbart has gone beyond jumping the shark for several years now as shown in his hysterical spittle that emanates from his mouth.

461 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:35:11pm

re: #453 LudwigVanQuixote

Gnat-urally!

462 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:35:20pm

re: #452 Floral Giraffe

Just don't get stung twice!

Sting me once, shame on you. Sting me twice...

463 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:35:23pm

re: #371 Cato the Elder

How do you "work" a honeybee harder than it is inclined to work on its own? Depose the old Queen and enthrone a new, meaner one? Post drones with little whips at the entrances to the hive?

Serious question. I didn't see the program, so I'd like to know just how that works.

Beehives are trucked around the countryside on big flatbed trucks, visiting the fruit orchards. The constant travel, changing scenery, and never-diminishing crop of blossoms to tap apparently stresses them out.

464 reine.de.tout  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:35:32pm

re: #430 SanFranciscoZionist

Define 'welfare state', and the degree to which black Americans are more beholden to it than others.

Myth and fact about welfare.

Fewer than 20% remain on welfare for more than 5 years at a time.

For most people, use of US assistance programs is a desperately needed stop-gap measure during hard times.

there is no "welfare state".
As you are trying to point out.

465 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:35:47pm

re: #433 Spare O'Lake

It's what I said. Here we have a situation where in Lewis' case it is basically "he said, he said". There is an absence of overwhelming evidence one way or the other. The lizard said that he is skeptical of all politicians, and I can accept that position while at the same time personally choosing to give Lewis the benefit of the doubt. There is nothing inconsistent in my position.
Now go have a beer with your pretzel, and let go of my ankle.

That position is, in fact, inconsistent, since his argument that he was skeptical of politicians rested on them gaining something from positioning what happened in a particular way-- which clearly applies to himself, as well. There is no logic in his position at all.

It is completely incorrect of you to say this is "he said, he said." The people who were there, the representatives, say that it occurred. The people saying maybe it didn't, let's be skeptical, after all, it'd benefit these politicians to lie and say it did even if it didn't-- they weren't there.

466 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:36:51pm

BTW the meme at the village of the banned is that of course, of course those silly opportunistic black politicians are lying about the incident as an attempt to throw the race card at "innocent" and not "racist at all" teabaggers.

They are shocked and appalled that no one here would see the obviousness that this is all a plot against "good clean white people who only love America" and have no hate in their hearts.

Again, it is like a five year old caught red handed. If they are willing to openly lie, and say this did not happen, then they at least still know it was wrong.

467 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:36:54pm

re: #413 Obdicut

You haven't blown my mind in the least. You've said a lot of unconnected things and made no actual argument beyond a vague allusion that the government somehow weakens marriage by being the 'breadwinner'. You also are ignoring that the vast majority of black births that are out of wedlock don't occur due to a divorce, but due to the lack of a marriage in the first place, so your argument is way off target, anyway.

You haven't even made an argument, so I can't really argue against it.

And if you're not up enough on this argument to even reference the old 'no man in the house' rules, you're not ready for this fight.

468 subsailor68  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:37:19pm

re: #463 The Sanity Inspector

Beehives are trucked around the countryside on big flatbed trucks, visiting the fruit orchards. The constant travel, changing scenery, and never-diminishing crop of blossoms to tap apparently stresses them out.

And that's what we call "Spring Break".

469 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:37:45pm

re: #463 The Sanity Inspector

Beehives are trucked around the countryside on big flatbed trucks, visiting the fruit orchards. The constant travel, changing scenery, and never-diminishing crop of blossoms to tap apparently stresses them out.

Do they make tiny little cans of Monster energy drink?

470 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:37:46pm

re: #461 Floral Giraffe

Gnat-urally!

I don't know if bringing other insects in to this will fly.

471 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:38:17pm

re: #441 9Iron

I am not convinced. The Cuban Missile Crisis isn't even relevant now. Michael Moore's movie has already been forgotten. While I don't doubt there are pro-communist former Cubans living in Florida, how on Earth does that prove that Fidel has more marketing power than Breitbart?!? I think this idea is something that solely exists in 9Iron's mind.

472 webevintage  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:38:18pm

hahahahahaha
ACORN Pharmacy
[Link: wonkette.com...]

473 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:39:38pm
474 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:40:25pm

re: #441 9Iron

I can't believe I am even having this conversation! Fidel Castro, iron clad ruler of a communist nation 90 miles off of the Unites States coast for ballpark of 50 years, where there has been a trade embargo since before I was born, has no more influence than Andrew Breitbart? You're serious? Go around Miami and ask the people what Castro thinks and ask the same people what Breitbart thinks. You will get a hell of a lot more response about Castro I guarantee you! This conversation has turned surreal!

In real world, could we start with the Cuban missile crisis and end with Michael Moore's movie where he talked up their health care while making the case that the US needed radical change? There's so much in between, almost 50 years worth, that I don't really think we need to go into, do we?

Andrew Breitbart has more influence than Castro? Wow, people think that I'm just trolling?

I have to go pick up the kids from school. I'll be back later.

Castro controls Cuba. He has no influence whatsoever on the US healthcare debate. He chimed in only to stir things up. You have reacted exactly as predicted.

475 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:40:30pm

re: #460 Gus 802

My advice to the Congressional Black Caucus would be to ignore this metropolitan hick, Andrew Breitbart. There would be nothing to be gained from a dialogue with this social cretin because there would be no credibility to be gained from this warped ideologue and his enraged gang of overgrown adolescents (aka his readership).

It is already self evident in the title of this jumble of word sewage he's concocted and where he has in the title, "Civil Rights Movement Jumped the Shark." The Tea Party just got off the ground with their atavistic and achromic side show and they jumped the shark soon after their first gathering. Mr. Breitbart has gone beyond jumping the shark for several years now as shown in his hysterical spittle that emanates from his mouth.

I disagree. Every responsible politician (white or black) should single this guy out as a creep and publicly call him one. He should be used as a sharp example of shame that the US does not appreciate this shit.

476 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:41:10pm

re: #416 Mad Al-Jaffee

Beekeepers takes hives to different farms/orchards - wherever they are needed to pollinate plants. I think some of them make more doing this than they do from selling honey.

We made the most money from selling queens at the apiary where I worked. January/February are "shaking season"...three lbs of bees and a queen put into a little box with wire mesh sides on it, then they're put in the US mail and sent to apiaries in colder climates where the bees die off every winter. The outfit I worked for was a family affair...four different apiaries in the area, and each of us had about 2,000 colonies. We also harvested queens by taking young larvae, putting them in tiny wax cups, and hanging them upside down in hives with no queens (all larvae have the same characteristics for the first five days--workers (female), drones(male) and queens(female, duh). If the cell was inverted, the workers would draw it out into a queen cell (about the size of your pinky to the first knuckle 1.5 inches or so). After thirty days, we'd cut those from the bits of wood they were attached to, and go 'plant' them in small hives called 'nukes'. A week later, there would be a 'virgin' queen, and a week after that, she'd fly (to get fertilized)...you'd see a cloud of hundreds of drones chasing a virgin around the yard...the lucky guy got killed for banging the little lady, and the rest of the drones would be killed by workers for failing to do so. Drones can't feed themselves, just like queens, so the workers simply forced them to stay outside the colony and let them starve to death.

Such a lovely topic for the first week in spring...thanks to whoever brought this up.

477 MandyManners  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:41:26pm
478 Jadespring  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:41:34pm

re: #446 Obdicut

It's meme. It fits with other memes. It's part of a meme package that has been floating around in various incarnations and forms since blacks came to the country.

479 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:42:05pm

New developments on the Gaza front.

After 2 soldiers were killed today, Israeli tanks advance into the Gaza strip. Let's see how far this escalates.

GAZA, March 26 (Reuters) - Israeli tanks advanced into the Gaza Strip on Friday after the worst clash with Palestinian fighters in 14 months killed two on each side, and Palestinian sources reported fresh casualties in the fighting.
They said five Israeli tanks and two armoured bulldozers advanced, firing, towards the town of Khan Younis in the centre of the narrow coastal enclave.
The Gaza-base militant group Popular Resistance Committees said one of its fighters was critically wounded by tank shelling east of the town. Palestinian sources reported Israeli helicopters and unmanned military drones in the skies. (Editing by Alison Williams)
480 Gus  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:42:05pm

re: #471 eclectic infidel

I am not convinced. The Cuban Missile Crisis isn't even relevant now. Michael Moore's movie has already been forgotten. While I don't doubt there are pro-communist former Cubans living in Florida, how on Earth does that prove that Fidel has more marketing power than Breitbart?!? I think this idea is something that solely exists in 9Iron's mind.

Just read the comment you're referring to. How can anyone compare the noteriety of Andrew Breitbart to Fidel Castro. The two are not really relevant to each other and it's like comparing the notoriety of Bob Saget and Don Rickles.

481 Cato the Elder  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:42:30pm

re: #478 Jadespring

It's meme. It fits with other memes. It's part of a meme package that has been floating around in various incarnations and forms since blacks came to the country.

Blacks came to the country against their will before it was a country. I know you know that, just a reminder.

482 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:42:34pm

re: #479 Joo-LiZ

New developments on the Gaza front.

After 2 soldiers were killed today, Israeli tanks advance into the Gaza strip. Let's see how far this escalates.

Dyan Emet.

483 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:42:49pm

re: #470 LudwigVanQuixote

I don't know if bringing other insects in to this will fly.

Buzz off!
//

484 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:43:23pm

re: #482 LudwigVanQuixote

Dyan Emet.

What exactly does that expression mean?

Judged True? Something like that?

485 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:43:58pm

re: #483 Floral Giraffe

Buzz off!
//

That one approaches a good pun.

486 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:45:03pm

re: #484 Joo-LiZ

What exactly does that expression mean?

Judged True? Something like that?

When we hear that a fellow Jew, or any good person has been killed, there is a blessing. Dyan Emet in this case means that G-d is a true judge - and that somehow it will make sense, even if it does not today.

487 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:45:38pm

re: #485 LudwigVanQuixote

That one approaches a good pun.

I hadn't ant-icipated that one!

488 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:45:42pm

re: #476 darthstar

Farming "queens" continued...

About a week after the virgins flew, they'd start laying eggs. That's when we'd go around the nuke yard and catch them. We'd take a little white-out, put a dot on their backs so they'd be easier for the beekeepers who bought them to find when checking their colonies, and then put them in a little box with about six worker bees and a chunk of sugar. They'd be fine in that little box for up to a month.

Introducing a new queen to a colony took a bit of work. First, if you had an old queen who wasn't laying, you needed to kill her. But the workers won't just accept a new queen, and if you just let her go, they'd kill her and raise their own. So we'd pull the cork out of the little box described above, and plug the hole with some more candy. By the time the workers ate through the candy and got to the queen, they were used to her smell and accepted her.

Okay...enough talk about beekeeping. I'm starting to get nostalgic for it.

489 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:45:48pm

re: #486 LudwigVanQuixote

When we hear that a fellow Jew, or any good person has been killed, there is a blessing. Dyan Emet in this case means that G-d is a true judge - and that somehow it will make sense, even if it does not today.

Ohh, interesting. Thank you.

490 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:46:23pm

re: #484 Joo-LiZ

What exactly does that expression mean?

Judged True? Something like that?

Short form of 'Baruch ha-Dayan Emet', "Blessed be the True Judge"

It's said when you hear of a death.

491 cliffster  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:46:43pm

holy shit, darthstar knows a lot about bees

492 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:47:15pm

re: #489 Joo-LiZ

Ohh, interesting. Thank you.

I shall add prayers for the families of those soldiers and their fellows strike true and come home safe from Gaza.

493 avanti  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:47:59pm

Fox is hyping the billion dollar "cost" of the new health care bill to AT&T and 100 million to Caterpillar. A bit of digging tells the story. The corporations can know longer write off the cost of tax`payer subsidized prescription payments.
In other words they got tax payer help with the coverage, while writing off the entire cost, and that double dip was costing us billions. The new law takes effect in 2011 and I'd bet the corporate lobbyists will get them back the sweet deal.

494 Gus  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:48:00pm

re: #475 LudwigVanQuixote

I disagree. Every responsible politician (white or black) should single this guy out as a creep and publicly call him one. He should be used as a sharp example of shame that the US does not appreciate this shit.

I suppose they could use him as an example. However, you know what they say about getting down in the mud with people like Breitbart. Plus having seen the sideshow with regards to O'Keefe. In any case, given Breitbart's history with the black community with regards to ACORN, the O'Keefe pimp, and his appearance on Bill Maher opposite Michael Eric Dyson perhaps there is some form of exposure with regards to Breitbart. The general conclusion of which should be that Breitbart is a breathless wanker.

495 Jadespring  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:48:09pm

re: #481 Cato the Elder

Blacks came to the country against their will before it was a country. I know you know that, just a reminder.

No prob. I do know and should have said that better.

496 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:48:25pm

re: #487 Floral Giraffe

I hadn't ant-icipated that one!

well I thought it might bug you ;)

497 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:48:48pm

re: #470 LudwigVanQuixote

I don't know if bringing other insects in to this will fly.

If it does I expect some to flea the conversation... :p

499 teleskiguy  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:49:20pm

Wholly OT, but...
FUCK YEAH! Thank you Charles for bringing back "Frank Says!"

500 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:49:31pm

re: #491 cliffster

holy shit, darthstar knows a lot about bees

Work with them for a couple of years, you learn a lot...there's a lot of science. Grafting queens was my favorite part of the job. Scraping supers (empty hives) was the least favorite. Honey production was back-breaking work, but the boss always had a half-gallon of Black Velvet (and 7-up for the guys who didn't drink BV/water)waiting for us at the end of the day. Those were some drunk times.
:)

501 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:49:31pm

re: #496 LudwigVanQuixote

Sometimes you're such a Strigiphilus Garylarsoni.


I'm not doing this right, am I?

502 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:49:57pm

re: #486 LudwigVanQuixote

When we hear that a fellow Jew, or any good person has been killed, there is a blessing. Dyan Emet in this case means that G-d is a true judge - and that somehow it will make sense, even if it does not today.

Well, this does make sense: Islamist terrorists ambushed Israeli soldiers and killed two of them. In response, Israel is going to give the Islamists a beat-down.

503 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:50:43pm

re: #446 Obdicut


Your contention was that liberal welfare policies have led to high rates of illegitimacy in the black population. You've done jack and shit to support this contention.

This is more of that argument that black people should vote against their best interests. It's LIBERALS THAT ARE TEH REAL RACISTS!1

So dull and so tired, that stuff.

504 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:50:48pm

re: #498 The Sanity Inspector

One thing that really didn't help:

Finally letting blacks get good jobs at factories during WWII, letting them build up communities with decent, middle-class prosperity, and then firing lots and lots them when the whites came back from war so that they could have their old jobs back.

That sucked.

505 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:51:07pm

re: #494 Gus 802

I suppose they could use him as an example. However, you know what they say about getting down in the mud with people like Breitbart. Plus having seen the sideshow with regards to O'Keefe. In any case, given Breitbart's history with the black community with regards to ACORN, the O'Keefe pimp, and his appearance on Bill Maher opposite Michael Eric Dyson perhaps there is some form of exposure with regards to Breitbart. The general conclusion of which should be that Breitbart is a breathless wanker.

You misunderstand what I am going for. I want a continuous stream if politicians making a short and simple statement that what he is saying is untrue and unacceptable. I want it round the clock for about a day and he is the perfect target bc he is just big enough to be noticed, but not so big, the right is not going to risk the fallout for defending a little twerp like him.

There will be no debate or dialogue, just simple open condemnation. Let him and his racist ilk be shunned and shamed publicly and sharply.

506 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:52:15pm

re: #505 LudwigVanQuixote

Well, I want to own an Island in the South Pacific, and THAT isn't going to happen either!

507 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:52:41pm

re: #429 eclectic infidel

Then again, much like the whole anti-war movement since the 2nd invasion of Iraq, Tea Parties could lose steam and members due to public opinion. I mean, let's say health care legislation continues to be tweaked and improved upon and people actually begin to reap benefits. When that happens, Tea Party goons are going to look like terrific jerks, as are Republicans. The anti-war rally I went to last Saturday was less than half-anti war (and weak at that) and more anti-Israel, anti-Imperialism. Even with war in Afghanistan, Obama IS in office, and by default the anti-war drive is slowing down considerably.

Yup.

I'm honestly not fearing a lot of violence by tea partiers, mostly just yelling and screaming and eventually that'll die down and they won't have the wherewithall to primary Republican challengers. I think this will take a while, thouh!

508 Gus  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:53:02pm

re: #505 LudwigVanQuixote

You misunderstand what I am going for. I want a continuous stream if politicians making a short and simple statement that what he is saying is untrue and unacceptable. I want it round the clock for about a day and he is the perfect target bc he is just big enough to be noticed, but not so big, the right is not going to risk the fallout for defending a little twerp like him.

There will be no debate or dialogue, just simple open condemnation. Let him and his racist ilk be shunned and shamed publicly and sharply.

Agreed. Sure, I didn't mean to ignore him. I meant to as you state:

There will be no debate or dialogue, just simple open condemnation.

Expose the man, and his ilk, for what he is without direct dialogue.

509 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:54:08pm

re: #497 oaktree

If it does I expect some to flea the conversation... :p

We must quit-oh...

510 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:54:17pm

re: #502 Dark_Falcon

Well, this does make sense: Islamist terrorists ambushed Israeli soldiers and killed two of them. In response, Israel is going to give the Islamists a beat-down.

That will not bring back those two men.

However, I am all for seeing to it that the Islamists have their ranks thinned properly. Perhaps Obama and Hillary will learn that every time the US renigs on a deal they embolden the terrorists.

Now to clarify the last sentence, the same would have applied to W and Clinton and every other US president who has let Israel down while walking the tightrope of appeasement and action.

511 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:54:34pm

re: #500 darthstar

Work with them for a couple of years, you learn a lot...there's a lot of science. Grafting queens was my favorite part of the job. Scraping supers (empty hives) was the least favorite. Honey production was back-breaking work, but the boss always had a half-gallon of Black Velvet (and 7-up for the guys who didn't drink BV/water)waiting for us at the end of the day. Those were some drunk times.
:)

How many times did you get stung?

512 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:55:36pm

re: #506 Floral Giraffe

Well, I want to own an Island in the South Pacific, and THAT isn't going to happen either!

Pick such islands carefully. Many will not be there much longer.

513 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:55:39pm

re: #479 Joo-LiZ

New developments on the Gaza front.

After 2 soldiers were killed today, Israeli tanks advance into the Gaza strip. Let's see how far this escalates.

And meanwhile, the dhim-witted Obama administration continues to publicly humiliate Israel and demand that it make unilateral concessions to the Islamofascist terrorists.

514 Gus  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:56:28pm

re: #513 Spare O'Lake

And meanwhile, the dhim-witted Obama administration continues to publicly humiliate Israel and demand that it make unilateral concessions to the Islamofascist terrorists.

Linky?

515 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:57:31pm
516 Killgore Trout  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:57:39pm

An interesting view of alternative history:
Hitler's Britain

517 avanti  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:57:49pm

re: #504 Obdicut

One thing that really didn't help:

Finally letting blacks get good jobs at factories during WWII, letting them build up communities with decent, middle-class prosperity, and then firing lots and lots them when the whites came back from war so that they could have their old jobs back.

That sucked.

Women where fired too, big push to go back to the kitchen, but it was the start of women working outside the home in nontraditional jobs.

518 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 12:58:09pm

re: #501 Obdicut

Sometimes you're such a Strigiphilus Garylarsoni.

I'm not doing this right, am I?

That was brilliant. I love Far Side.

519 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:00:42pm

"What’s the right way to deal with abuse? Take the moral high ground and reply as a paragon of calm reason? Or treat people with the same disrespect they showed you? It probably depends, of course, but here’s a really striking case study, courtesy of Ben Goldacre."

520 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:01:37pm

And because I want some music:

Here is the best cover of Angie yet made.

[Link: www.dailymotion.com...]

521 Gus  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:02:15pm

Charges reduced in phone caper at senator's office
(AP) – 17 minutes ago

NEW ORLEANS — Federal prosecutors have filed reduced charges against conservative activist James O'Keefe and three others accused of trying to tamper with the phones in Sen. Mary Landrieu's New Orleans office.

A filing Friday in U.S. District Court charges them with entering a federal building under false pretenses, a misdemeanor. They had been arrested Jan. 25 on felony charges.

The new charges are contained in a bill of information, which often signals a plea deal.

O'Keefe gained notoriety by masquerading as a pimp in a stunt that embarrassed the ACORN organization.

In the Landrieu incident, O'Keefe has said he was investigating complaints that constituents couldn't reach the senator's office to comment on her support for health care reform.

522 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:02:32pm

re: #518 LudwigVanQuixote

I miss the Far Side. BTW my 10 yr old found by Calvin and Hobbes books. He thinks they're "brilliant". His words not mine!

523 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:02:37pm

re: #510 LudwigVanQuixote

That will not bring back those two men.

However, I am all for seeing to it that the Islamists have their ranks thinned properly. Perhaps Obama and Hillary will learn that every time the US renigs on a deal they embolden the terrorists.

Now to clarify the last sentence, the same would have applied to W and Clinton and every other US president who has let Israel down while walking the tightrope of appeasement and action.

Quite Concur. I hope Obama learns and does not continue to fuel the hopes of the Islamists.

524 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:04:12pm
525 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:05:30pm

Hey, "The Prisoner is on AMC. In the original show, those damn giant ballons scared the crap out of me, granted I was a kid.

526 avanti  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:06:30pm

re: #513 Spare O'Lake

And meanwhile, the dhim-witted Obama administration continues to publicly humiliate Israel and demand that it make unilateral concessions to the Islamofascist terrorists.

OK, I'll probably provoke a fight here, but many administrations have pushed back hard against Israel on settlement expansion. Some pressure resulted in a change to more moderate leaders in Israel. Don't forget, the far right in Israel embarrassed Biden on his peace making trip. I just read that polls in Israel are not happy with provoking the US to appease the religious extremists in Israel. The whole issue is a diplomatic dance, they poke, we poke back.

527 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:06:33pm

re: #514 Gus 802

Linky?

What do you call their demand for Israel to suspend its 43 year old policy of building housing in Jerusalem?
And what do you think is in the secret list of 15 demands which Obama presented to Netanyahu with a public deadline for a response? And how would you characterize Obama's treatment of Netanyahu in Washington the other day, if not humiliating?
Multiple links available on prior LGF threads - let me know if you can't find them.

528 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:06:55pm

re: #522 pingjockey

I miss the Far Side. BTW my 10 yr old found by Calvin and Hobbes books. He thinks they're "brilliant". His words not mine!

He has good taste.

529 Racer X  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:07:30pm

re: #520 LudwigVanQuixote

And because I want some music:

Here is the best cover of Angie yet made.

[Link: www.dailymotion.com...]

In an alternate reality I know for a fact that I am madly, deeply, in love with Tori Amos. Her voice sends shivers down my spine.

Wonderful song!

530 freetoken  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:08:39pm

re: #513 Spare O'Lake

And meanwhile, the dhim-witted Obama administration continues to publicly humiliate Israel and demand that it make unilateral concessions to the Islamofascist terrorists.

Hmmmmmm....

531 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:09:25pm

re: #528 Dark_Falcon
Heh. He also likes Monty Python, sometimes he seems far too smart for being 10. After I cleaned the back yard the other day, he told me it was great, but I forgot to clean out the "infestation of velociraptors". I just about fell down I was laughing so hard.

532 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:09:38pm

re: #526 avanti

OK, I'll probably provoke a fight here, but many administrations have pushed back hard against Israel on settlement expansion. Some pressure resulted in a change to more moderate leaders in Israel. Don't forget, the far right in Israel embarrassed Biden on his peace making trip. I just read that polls in Israel are not happy with provoking the US to appease the religious extremists in Israel. The whole issue is a diplomatic dance, they poke, we poke back.

The general sense is the way Obama has responded since has gone far beyond what is reasonable.

Something like 60% of Israelis support construction in Jerusalem. The same number think it will cause a rift in US-Israel relations.

533 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:09:50pm

re: #513 Spare O'Lake

And meanwhile, the dhim-witted Obama administration continues to publicly humiliate Israel and demand that it make unilateral concessions to the Islamofascist terrorists.

ON this we agree.

It is especially appalling since back during Clinton, a deal was reached on Jerusalem building - and it was a giant concession then.

We have every right to build in our own capital and the deal was that Jerusalem goes off the table and Israel will dismantle new settlements in the West Bank of Jordan. That was hailed as a massive concession. Now of course, it is as if there never was a concession and as always, more is demanded.

Since Hillary was a player in that deal she should have remembered it.

I am of course appalled. However, the thing that righties miss is that this is also par for the course. The US has waffled in its support since there has been an Israel.

This situation will persist as long as we need oil.

Yet another reason to get off of fossil fuels - as if impending eco-collapse were not enough.

534 Gus  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:10:02pm

re: #527 Spare O'Lake

What do you call their demand for Israel to suspend its 43 year old policy of building housing in Jerusalem?
And what do you think is in the secret list of 15 demands which Obama presented to Netanyahu with a public deadline for a response? And how would you characterize Obama's treatment of Netanyahu in Washington the other day, if not humiliating?
Multiple links available on prior LGF threads - let me know if you can't find them.

The request from the State Department and the White House to curtail or reduce the number of settlements in East Jerusalem does not equal "unilateral concessions to the Islamo-fascist terrorists."

535 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:11:12pm

re: #532 Joo-LiZ

The general sense is the way Obama has responded since has gone far beyond what is reasonable.

Something like 60% of Israelis support construction in Jerusalem. The same number think it will cause a rift in US-Israel relations.

And noe of that matters really, since Jerusalem is our city. We don't tell the Italians where to build in Rome.

536 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:11:17pm

re: #504 Obdicut

One thing that really didn't help:

Finally letting blacks get good jobs at factories during WWII, letting them build up communities with decent, middle-class prosperity, and then firing lots and lots them when the whites came back from war so that they could have their old jobs back.

That sucked.

And according to my dad who was born and raised in San Francisco, there was a huge fight between municipalities regarding who should provide housing for blacks once WWII ended.

537 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:11:18pm

re: #534 Gus 802

The request from the State Department and the White House to curtail or reduce the number of settlements in East Jerusalem does not equal "unilateral concessions to the Islamo-fascist terrorists."

It is, however, of very dubious value.

538 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:11:49pm

re: #535 LudwigVanQuixote

And noe of that matters really, since Jerusalem is our city. We don't tell the Italians where to build in Rome.

Have I mentioned how nice it is to be on the same side as you on an issue? =P

539 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:12:02pm

re: #536 eclectic infidel

And according to my dad who was born and raised in San Francisco, there was a huge fight between municipalities regarding who should provide housing for blacks once WWII ended.

And I teach in Richmond--one of the cities that answered that question.

540 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:12:43pm

re: #535 LudwigVanQuixote
Hey! Are you over there? And if you are, stay safe. I disagree with a lot of your politics but a bomb or bomber doesn't respect shit.

541 freetoken  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:12:51pm

Conservative activist, 3 others have charges reduced in phone caper at La. senator's office

NEW ORLEANS (AP) - Conservative activist, 3 others have charges reduced in phone caper at La. senator's office.

Was this about the actions of Brietbart's friends?

542 Gus  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:13:28pm

re: #537 SanFranciscoZionist

It is, however, of very dubious value.

Yeah. If it comes down to face-off with Bibi who usually stands his ground. The the best advice to the White House would be move on and stop wasting too much time on that issue.

543 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:14:04pm

re: #540 pingjockey

Hey! Are you over there? And if you are, stay safe. I disagree with a lot of your politics but a bomb or bomber doesn't respect shit.

Wow, thank you for your concern. However, I am not over there. I have dear friends and family though who are.

544 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:14:30pm

re: #541 freetoken

Conservative activist, 3 others have charges reduced in phone caper at La. senator's office

Was this about the actions of Brietbart's friends?

Yep, it's O'Keefe, the ACORN "Investigator".

545 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:15:20pm

re: #543 LudwigVanQuixote
Ah. Never got to go to Israel while I was in the navy. Talked to some who did though and the visit was excellent.

546 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:15:38pm

An Article about Jerusalem to lift spirits.

[Link: www.aish.com...]

547 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:16:33pm

re: #541 freetoken

Conservative activist, 3 others have charges reduced in phone caper at La. senator's office

Was this about the actions of Brietbart's friends?

Oh, it was just a 'caper'...how exciting!

548 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:16:54pm

re: #526 avanti

OK, I'll probably provoke a fight here, but many administrations have pushed back hard against Israel on settlement expansion. Some pressure resulted in a change to more moderate leaders in Israel. Don't forget, the far right in Israel embarrassed Biden on his peace making trip. I just read that polls in Israel are not happy with provoking the US to appease the religious extremists in Israel. The whole issue is a diplomatic dance, they poke, we poke back.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that Obama demands Israeli compliance by tomorrow so he can go trundling off to the Arab League Summit in Libya on bended knee to present that ugly collection of despotic drekeaters with his trophy-list of Israeli concessions.
Some dance.

549 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:17:06pm

re: #545 pingjockey

Ah. Never got to go to Israel while I was in the navy. Talked to some who did though and the visit was excellent.

Well I have been there many times.

What can I say, the country has beach and forest and wilderness, modern cities and medicine, really good food, and astonishingly attractive women.

Actually, I think the reason we have so many problems as a people is that the rest of the world is jealous of our women.

550 Gus  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:17:22pm

re: #547 darthstar

Oh, it was just a 'caper'...how exciting!

Would that make him a caped crusader with his "pimp cape"?

/

551 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:19:34pm

re: #550 Gus 802

Would that make him a caped crusader with his "pimp cape"?

/

They should put O'Keefe in juvenile hall for two weeks...sure, he's 25 years old, but he's "just a kid" according to his defenders, and I think a couple of weeks with the general population of 14 to 17 year olds in juvy would be a good learning experience for him. And those kids would eat him alive.

552 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:20:05pm

re: #549 LudwigVanQuixote
Heh. I have never understood how the world can toss shit at Israel over and over and the Pali terrorists absolutely trash a church in Nazareth and all you hear is crickets. I think I've been a fan of Israel since I was 8. The '67 war and the news showed Moshe Dayan. I thought he looked like a general was supposed to look.

553 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:20:10pm

re: #534 Gus 802

The request from the State Department and the White House to curtail or reduce the number of settlements in East Jerusalem does not equal "unilateral concessions to the Islamo-fascist terrorists."

Yes it does, as my good friend LVQ explained above.

554 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:20:59pm

I wonder how the rooster is doing?

555 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:21:01pm

re: #548 Spare O'Lake

Oh, and I forgot to mention that Obama demands Israeli compliance by tomorrow so he can go trundling off to the Arab League Summit in Libya on bended knee to present that ugly collection of despotic drekeaters with his trophy-list of Israeli concessions.
Some dance.

That's what we call the "Dhimi Dance". It's danced by fools.

556 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:21:01pm

re: #535 LudwigVanQuixote

And noe of that matters really, since Jerusalem is our city. We don't tell the Italians where to build in Rome.

About two threads down, our good friend "drcordell" explained that "East Jerusalem" equals North, South and West Jerusalem since the Jordanian Legion had the city partially surrounded when they called a ceasefire in 1949 and drew the so-called "Green Line" which uninformed people think equates to the uttermost limits of Israeli sovereignty.

Ramat Shlomo, which is in North Jerusalem, is built on uninhabited empty land which was owned by no one in 1967.

557 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:21:03pm

re: #552 pingjockey

Heh. I have never understood how the world can toss shit at Israel over and over and the Pali terrorists absolutely trash a church in Nazareth and all you hear is crickets. I think I've been a fan of Israel since I was 8. The '67 war and the news showed Moshe Dayan. I thought he looked like a general was supposed to look.

So did everyone else ;)

558 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:22:20pm

re: #554 pingjockey

I wonder how the rooster is doing?

He's a Rock star now.. Chicks hanging around him 24/7

559 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:22:34pm

re: #557 LudwigVanQuixote

So did everyone else ;)

Moshe Dayan gave back the Temple Mount to the Wakf after they surrendered to him. He thought he was being generous, but he really set the stage for the troubles that we have now.

560 Lidane  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:22:51pm

Another day, another example of Glenn Beck's raging idiocy:

Beck tells country to pray: "It's 9/11 all over again except we didn't have the collapsing buildings"

I don't even have the words. WTF?

561 Gus  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:23:05pm

re: #548 Spare O'Lake

Oh, and I forgot to mention that Obama demands Israeli compliance by tomorrow so he can go trundling off to the Arab League Summit in Libya on bended knee to present that ugly collection of despotic drekeaters with his trophy-list of Israeli concessions.
Some dance.

President Obama is not going to the Arab League Summit.

562 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:23:10pm

re: #558 HoosierHoops
Bwahaha! Hey, how'd you like the 2OT game last night?

563 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:23:47pm

re: #560 Lidane

Another day, another example of Glenn Beck's raging idiocy:

Beck tells country to pray: "It's 9/11 all over again except we didn't have the collapsing buildings"

I don't even have the words. WTF?

I am not even shocked any more. That's where I am with Beck at this point.

564 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:24:30pm

re: #560 Lidane
I admit I listen to the guy, but a ton of his stuff is sooo over the top, when he does say something smart, it's been buried by silliness.

565 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:25:04pm

re: #560 Lidane

Another day, another example of Glenn Beck's raging idiocy:

Beck tells country to pray: "It's 9/11 all over again except we didn't have the collapsing buildings"

I don't even have the words. WTF?

Those are evil words. They turn a political act into one of utter evil. Such words a vile and anyone who does not repudiate them should not be taken seriously in any political matter. Hopefully, Fox informs Beck that what he said was over the line and reigns him in.

566 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:25:11pm

re: #562 pingjockey

Bwahaha! Hey, how'd you like the 2OT game last night?

Great games this year...My brackets are totally busted.. Butler took care of that last night...

567 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:25:18pm

re: #564 pingjockey

I admit I listen to the guy, but a ton of his stuff is sooo over the top, when he does say something smart, it's been buried by silliness.

Got an example of "something smart" Glenn Beck has said? I'm just curious.

568 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:25:26pm

re: #560 Lidane

Another day, another example of Glenn Beck's raging idiocy:

Beck tells country to pray: "It's 9/11 all over again except we didn't have the collapsing buildings"

I don't even have the words. WTF?

The difference between Beck and Coulter, in my opinion, is that Coulter speaks to get a reaction, Beck really believes what he says.

Insanity.
There was a time when he wasn't so crazy.

569 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:25:43pm

re: #552 pingjockey

Heh. I have never understood how the world can toss shit at Israel over and over and the Pali terrorists absolutely trash a church in Nazareth and all you hear is crickets. I think I've been a fan of Israel since I was 8. The '67 war and the news showed Moshe Dayan. I thought he looked like a general was supposed to look.

One of my friends, who generally has no interest in the Middle East, was beside herself over the Church of the Nativity being occupied. She couldn't figure out why the press wasn't more interested.

570 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:25:44pm

re: #564 pingjockey

I admit I listen to the guy, but a ton of his stuff is sooo over the top, when he does say something smart, it's been buried by silliness.

You're holding out for Graham Chapman (dressed as a British colonel) to come out and whack him with a swagger stick while telling the producers to stop the show?

571 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:25:58pm

re: #556 Alouette

About two threads down, our good friend "drcordell" explained that "East Jerusalem" equals North, South and West Jerusalem since the Jordanian Legion had the city partially surrounded when they called a ceasefire in 1949 and drew the so-called "Green Line" which uninformed people think equates to the uttermost limits of Israeli sovereignty.

Ramat Shlomo, which is in North Jerusalem, is built on uninhabited empty land which was owned by no one in 1967.

True, completely true.

Also irrelevant. High time we just say this is our land. G-d gave us this land. We own it by reason of history and first ownership. We own it culturally. We own it by right of conquest when we took it back from attackers.

Our claim to the land is more firm by any standard than the claim America has to any of it's states. Our claim is more firm by any standard than any claim England has to Wales.

I respectfully ask that anyone who wants to see the argument made much better than I can, look at this little film.

[Link: www.aish.com...]

572 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:26:11pm

re: #547 darthstar

Oh, it was just a 'caper'...how exciting!

Like a Donald Westlake novel.

573 freetoken  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:26:29pm

re: #565 Dark_Falcon

Hopefully, Fox informs Beck that what he said was over the line and reigns him in.

If they cared, they wouldn't have brought him over from CNN. Beck is their star; he (among others) is how they compete with ClearChannel for the wingnut $$$.

574 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:27:01pm

re: #568 Joo-LiZ

The difference between Beck and Coulter, in my opinion, is that Coulter speaks to get a reaction, Beck really believes what he says.

Insanity.
There was a time when he wasn't so crazy.

There's a part of me that hopes that Beck says the same. And yeah I remember seeing him say once that Irene Sendler deserved a Nobel more than Al Gore. I wished he had made the point without trashing Gore and exclusively focusing on what an awesome lady Sendler was but his general point was sound.

575 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:27:12pm

re: #567 darthstar
Stuff about pulling together. Platitudes I guess, he started out the other day by chastising the Tea Party folks(I thought) then he changed tack and lost me. I really thought he was different when he was on CNN.

576 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:27:26pm

re: #571 LudwigVanQuixote

True, completely true.

Also irrelevant. High time we just say this is our land. G-d gave us this land. We own it by reason of history and first ownership. We own it culturally. We own it by right of conquest when we took it back from attackers.

Our claim to the land is more firm by any standard than the claim America has to any of it's states. Our claim is more firm by any standard than any claim England has to Wales.

I respectfully ask that anyone who wants to see the argument made much better than I can, look at this little film.

[Link: www.aish.com...]

That's exactly what Bibi is saying. It's what he has said time and time again, most recently and publicly at AIPAC.

All we get in response is "it is illegally occupied territory and nobody recognizes your right to annex it".

577 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:27:34pm

re: #560 Lidane

Another day, another example of Glenn Beck's raging idiocy:

Beck tells country to pray: "It's 9/11 all over again except we didn't have the collapsing buildings"

I don't even have the words. WTF?

Yes, Glenn. It's also Hiroshima all over again, except without the atomic blast.

578 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:27:40pm

re: #559 Alouette

Moshe Dayan gave back the Temple Mount to the Wakf after they surrendered to him. He thought he was being generous, but he really set the stage for the troubles that we have now.

Yes he did. The smart move would have been to expel the Arabs right there.

Of course, since Israelis can't be bothered to do construction jobs, we ought to have built Jerusalem up from the rubble it was ourselves and not given jobs and housing to the Arabs who now live in East Jerusalem. We really did bring it on ourselves.

579 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:27:40pm

re: #568 Joo-LiZ

The difference between Beck and Coulter, in my opinion, is that Coulter speaks to get a reaction, Beck really believes what he says.

Insanity.
There was a time when he wasn't so crazy.

Coulter is a wit masquerading as a pundit. I find her easier to endure if I remember that she isn't discussing or debating, she's performing.

580 Gus  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:27:44pm

re: #553 Spare O'Lake

Yes it does, as my good friend LVQ explained above.

I don't agree. Perhaps it can be perceived as "unilateral concessions to the Islamo-fascist terrorists" but that statement on its own suggests that anyone that suggests a concession of settlement reduction is an "Islamo-fascist terrorist." Not everyone that seeks that concession is an Islamo-fascist terrorist.

581 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:28:04pm

re: #570 oaktree
Or a fish, like in the fish dance(?) skit.

582 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:28:22pm

Sorry I usually read through the thread before posting, but I don't have a lot of time.

Did you see this article in Jpost, "Will Obama ignite 3rd intifada?" I think that heading was inflammatory to get you to read the article, but the author brings up some very interesting points.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Firstly that Biden had every right to be upset, although we should have handled it differently. He also chides Israel for looking like a banana republic and if anyone spends any kind of time there, you can see that's true!

But most interesting is the characterization of the "settlements" and how little Obama knows about it, which is really astonishing considering all of the history. He should know better or at least, know more. Particularly Ramat Shlomo which has, I think the author says 20,000 residents. That's a city, it's not some outpost, a shack and a dirt road, which is the impression you get when you talk "settlements."

Anyway, the article is quite excellent.

583 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:29:17pm

re: #575 pingjockey

Stuff about pulling together. Platitudes I guess, he started out the other day by chastising the Tea Party folks(I thought) then he changed tack and lost me. I really thought he was different when he was on CNN.

When Beck talks about 'pulling together' he doesn't mean as a country. He's talking to the fringe...the nutters who throw rocks and call in hateful messages. He's rallying his troops to raise a ruckus so he can cite that as evidence that he's right about the anger in the country. He's not calling for peaceful engagement and discussion. He's calling for revolution.

584 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:30:03pm

re: #582 marjoriemoon

We've been having quite a few circular discussions about it.

There has been a large rash of riots that has broken out across the region since the Ramat Shlomo announcement, and a lot of Israelis (and others) view Obama as having partial responsibility.

585 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:30:19pm

re: #581 pingjockey

The Fish-Slapping Dance was Palin (with the pichards) and Cleese (with a halibut).

There was also a recurring appearance of a knight in armor wielding a fish as well.

Must be a British comedy meme from that period. I recall a Goodies episode that included a cod fight.

586 windsagio  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:30:28pm

re: #571 LudwigVanQuixote

If that's true, then they should just throw aside all their foreign entanglements, do what they want and suffer the international consequences.

You can't expect people that share your cultural and religious cues to support that position wholeheartedly.

587 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:30:56pm

re: #583 darthstar
Revolution can be good. But not the way he seems to framing it. We have revolutions at the ballot box not armed insurrection.

588 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:31:29pm

re: #585 oaktree
Flinging fish is funny.

589 windsagio  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:31:42pm

re: #587 pingjockey

its not revolution then :P

not by any definition. Unless you want to call 2006/8 revolutions :)

590 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:32:26pm

re: #582 marjoriemoon
Pardon me. How is Israel like a bananna republic?

591 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:32:38pm

re: #586 windsagio

If that's true, then they should just throw aside all their foreign entanglements, do what they want and suffer the international consequences.

You can't expect people that share your cultural and religious cues to support that position wholeheartedly.

Given that those international entanglement mean an endless simmering of dead Jews and that no one really cares, I say you are right. If the Israelis strongly and unilaterally said enough! And if they truly took firm action and said, sorry we are not going to take it anymore, yes the world would whine, for a bit. Then however it would be over.

592 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:32:53pm

I thought South Park as usual had the best spoof of Beck. It would be hilarious if the administration responded to him the way Wendy did Cartman. "Yes, Glenn we are coming for you and will put you in a concentration camp."

593 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:33:14pm

re: #588 pingjockey

What's your opinion of alien blancmanges playing tennis?

594 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:33:41pm

re: #586 windsagio

If that's true, then they should just throw aside all their foreign entanglements, do what they want and suffer the international consequences.

You can't expect people that share your cultural and religious cues to support that position wholeheartedly.

And as to sharing cultural imperatives... excuse me. Why is that only Jews get that even as a question? Would you question an Irishman for considering Dublin to be his?

595 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:34:03pm

re: #589 windsagio
I guess you got me, we're not being oppressed as some on the lonnie right seem to be thinking. So revolution is the wrong word.

596 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:34:18pm

re: #580 Gus 802

I don't agree. Perhaps it can be perceived as "unilateral concessions to the Islamo-fascist terrorists" but that statement on its own suggests that anyone that suggests a concession of settlement reduction is an "Islamo-fascist terrorist." Not everyone that seeks that concession is an Islamo-fascist terrorist.

Palestinians democratically elected Hamas and Fatah, who are both Islamofascist terrorist regimes.

597 Ericus58  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:34:34pm

re: #590 pingjockey

Pardon me. How is Israel like a bananna republic?

I think that was meant tongue in check...

598 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:34:37pm

re: #584 Joo-LiZ

We've been having quite a few circular discussions about it.

There has been a large rash of riots that has broken out across the region since the Ramat Shlomo announcement, and a lot of Israelis (and others) view Obama as having partial responsibility.

I'm sorry I missed your discussion and I can't stay long now either :(

First, there is the issue of the word “settlements.” To the Israeli ear, anyone who would use the same noun for both a small city with tens of thousands of inhabitants and for a tiny hilltop outpost consisting of a trailer and a portable generator simply does not understand the terrain. Gilo, to Israelis, is not a settlement. It is a huge neighborhood of Jerusalem, a part of the capital city. When Obama called Gilo a settlement after Israel announced new housing units there in November, Israelis drew the conclusion that the president of the United States is wholly out of his element.

Then he goes on to say that stopping all construction means that you can't even build a room onto your house and anyone in the middle of doing so has to stop.

When the president, who does not seem to know a city from an outpost, insists that houses remain open to the elements during the cold Israeli winter because of his desire to appease the very Palestinians who have never been serious about peace efforts, he does not win friends.

I like Obama for this country. I do not like him for Israel.

599 webevintage  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:34:39pm

re: #560 Lidane

Another day, another example of Glenn Beck's raging idiocy:

Beck tells country to pray: "It's 9/11 all over again except we didn't have the collapsing buildings"

I don't even have the words. WTF?

Nice way to minimize the horror of 9/11 by comparing it to the passing of HC legislation.
One was an act of terrorism and the other was democracy in action.
Bastard.
Fucking, lying bastard.

600 windsagio  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:34:54pm

re: #591 LudwigVanQuixote

Given that those international entanglement mean an endless simmering of dead Jews and that no one really cares, I say you are right. If the Israelis strongly and unilaterally said enough! And if they truly took firm action and said, sorry we are not going to take it anymore, yes the world would whine, for a bit. Then however it would be over.

well, if they could actually survive without the huge amount of aid and loans they receive :p

And I think that's actually my beef. In many ways (and you're gonna hate me saying this), Israel is a dependant, if not a client state to the US and western Europe. In that situation they can't do whatever they want, and it makes all the breast-beating kind of silly.

That being said, if they want ot go that way, more power to them. At least, as you said, it would break the status quo ;)

601 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:34:58pm

re: #593 oaktree
You use a term I'm not familiar with.

602 Gus  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:35:20pm

re: #596 Spare O'Lake

Palestinians democratically elected Hamas and Fatah, who are both Islamofascist terrorist regimes.

OK Good point. Should have been obvious to me really.

603 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:35:28pm

Hmm... for some reason no Israeli media is publishing the tanks rolling into Gaza bit. It can only be found in foreign sources like Reuters and Sky News.

Bare in mind, it IS Shabbat, so I dunno how that affects coverage.

604 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:35:29pm

re: #594 LudwigVanQuixote

And as to sharing cultural imperatives... excuse me. Why is that only Jews get that even as a question? Would you question an Irishman for considering Dublin to be his?

seriously.

605 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:35:50pm

re: #597 Ericus58
oops. Sorry.

606 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:35:56pm

re: #597 Ericus58

It's certainly shaped more like a banana than most other republics!

:)

607 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:36:04pm

re: #591 LudwigVanQuixote

Given that those international entanglement mean an endless simmering of dead Jews and that no one really cares, I say you are right. If the Israelis strongly and unilaterally said enough! And if they truly took firm action and said, sorry we are not going to take it anymore, yes the world would whine, for a bit. Then however it would be over.

It is where things seem to be headed, for better or for worse.

608 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:36:16pm

re: #590 pingjockey

Pardon me. How is Israel like a bananna republic?

Well trying to embarrass the U.S. which clearly they were doing. Also, everything is quite backwards in Israel. Hard to explain. Let me put it this way. When I was picking olives at a Kibbutz, my g/f fell out of a tree and landed on her head. The ambulance had to stop for gas on the way to the hospital. That kinda stuff.

609 windsagio  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:36:32pm

re: #594 LudwigVanQuixote

No, but I wouldn't expect a German to be all fired up about it either, that was my point. Especially when you talk about things like 'G-d gave us the land'. Some people might agree with you, but most of the world, you must admit would not, and you have to understand that.

610 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:37:35pm

re: #600 windsagio

well, if they could actually survive without the huge amount of aid and loans they receive :p

And I think that's actually my beef. In many ways (and you're gonna hate me saying this), Israel is a dependant, if not a client state to the US and western Europe. In that situation they can't do whatever they want, and it makes all the breast-beating kind of silly.

That being said, if they want ot go that way, more power to them. At least, as you said, it would break the status quo ;)

as opposed to their neighbors, who receive no aid from other countries??

and don't we give a lot of money to, say, Egypt as well??

611 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:38:02pm

re: #608 marjoriemoon
Aha. Thanks for clearing that up. I was confused.(happens a lot). :)

612 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:38:11pm

re: #601 pingjockey

You use a term I'm not familiar with.

Blancmange? A sort of European equivalent to vanilla pudding.

For alien blancmanges who are interested in sport you should look up and view the "Science Fiction Sketch" by Monty Python. (It's a set of related skits from an episode.)

I'd try to find a YouTube link for you, but cannot do so from here. :(

613 Ericus58  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:38:43pm

re: #605 pingjockey

oops. Sorry.

perhaps... maybe I was wrong...

614 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:38:54pm

re: #554 pingjockey

I wonder how the rooster is doing?

He was tasty!

615 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:39:02pm

re: #610 Aceofwhat?
IIRC, Egypt gets over 3 billion in aid, Israel gets 2 billion.

616 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:39:06pm

re: #592 HappyWarrior

I thought South Park as usual had the best spoof of Beck. It would be hilarious if the administration responded to him the way Wendy did Cartman. "Yes, Glenn we are coming for you and will put you in a concentration camp."

It would do any good. The people who listen to Glenn Beck will simply hear what they want to hear. They're enraged because they want to be.

617 windsagio  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:39:18pm

re: #610 Aceofwhat?

I think this came up before, it was guaranteed by Camp David right?

If Egypt essentially said "Screw you guys we're invading Gaza and Libya", you might expect us to cut them off. NOTE: I'm not equating what ludwig said with that, but I couldn't think of an appropriate parallel for Egypt. Israel's situaion really is unique in that sense ;p

618 Gus  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:39:20pm

Time to run a couple of errands. Hasta later.

619 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:39:36pm

re: #612 oaktree
OK! Don;t remember that skit.

620 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:39:42pm

re: #577 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes, Glenn. It's also Hiroshima all over again, except without the atomic blast.

That doesn't even come close to describing the tragedy that's unfolding here. It's more like Ground Hog Day again, except without Bill Murray.

621 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:39:55pm

re: #609 windsagio

No, but I wouldn't expect a German to be all fired up about it either, that was my point. Especially when you talk about things like 'G-d gave us the land'. Some people might agree with you, but most of the world, you must admit would not, and you have to understand that.

Of course I understand that. That is also why I listed right of history and right of conquest from others who attacked us.

And before anyone gets liberally offended by the term right of conquest, I ask the following simple question.

Name one state of the Union that we do not claim by right of conquest?

Name one major European nation or Asian nation that was not formed by right of conquest.

BUt if you don't like that, what of right of history and right of culture?

It is our land by any measure and more our land than your hypothetical German has claim to Germany.

622 lawhawk  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:40:25pm

re: #603 Joo-LiZ

Israeli military censors may have limited reporting on the matter from within Israel, but if Reuters or AFP have sources inside Gaza, they might be reporting in that fashion.

Also, three terror groups took responsibility for killing two Israeli soldiers today:

Three Palestinian groups issued statements taking responsibility, including the military wing of the ruling Hamas movement, Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades, the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, and a little-known group that called itself Palestine Taliban.

The al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade is a Fatah spinoff - which was unmentioned by the WaPo in its coverage. Fancy that.

This third group, Palestine Taliban, is a new group and likely yet another alphabet terror group that thinks Hamas and Fatah aren't sufficiently Islamofascist.

623 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:40:25pm

re: #614 Floral Giraffe
Oh, I hope not. Gotta admit that was entertaining.

624 Ericus58  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:40:56pm

re: #608 marjoriemoon

Well trying to embarrass the U.S. which clearly they were doing. Also, everything is quite backwards in Israel. Hard to explain. Let me put it this way. When I was picking olives at a Kibbutz, my g/f fell out of a tree and landed on her head. The ambulance had to stop for gas on the way to the hospital. That kinda stuff.


Too aggressive on their energy conservation?! ;)

625 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:42:22pm

Also, King Hussein II (Jordan) has been awful mouthy lately. What's up with that? He doesn't want the bastards, but he criticizes Israel over building in East Jerusalem? Is he posturing? Wants to look good for his buds? Seems to me he'd have the worst time of it if those cities were full of Arabs instead of Jews.

626 HappyWarrior  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:42:25pm

re: #621 LudwigVanQuixote

Of course I understand that. That is also why I listed right of history and right of conquest from others who attacked us.

And before anyone gets liberally offended by the term right of conquest, I ask the following simple question.

Name one state of the Union that we do not claim by right of conquest?

Name one major European nation or Asian nation that was not formed by right of conquest.

BUt if you don't like that, what of right of history and right of culture?

It is our land by any measure and more our land than your hypothetical German has claim to Germany.

This is a true point and exactly why I am especially confused when people from countries that actually have been empires i.e Britain, France, and Russia hope on the anti Israel wagon. I think it's a double standard personally.

627 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:42:50pm

re: #617 windsagio

I think this came up before, it was guaranteed by Camp David right?

If Egypt essentially said "Screw you guys we're invading Gaza and Libya", you might expect us to cut them off. NOTE: I'm not equating what ludwig said with that, but I couldn't think of an appropriate parallel for Egypt. Israel's situaion really is unique in that sense ;p

the parallel i'm suggesting...in fact it's more perpendicular than parallel, is that we support Egypt despite their not being as democratic and helpful in the region as we'd like.

logically, then, i would expect that if Israel behaved a bit more like Egypt, or more poorly in our eyes, we would not necessarily be forced to alter our assistance - since we already assist other countries with whom we disagree more often than we do with Israel...

628 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:43:15pm

re: #623 pingjockey

Oh, I hope not. Gotta admit that was entertaining.

It was fun, wasn't it?
I like Hoopster's "he's a rock star" better!

629 Racer X  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:43:21pm

Don't the Palestinians receive like, a ton of financial aid?

630 windsagio  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:43:34pm

re: #621 LudwigVanQuixote

I don't know how well you can apply your argument to Germany man, those people were there for a freaking long time.

And like it or not, the situation with Israel is complex, what with the diaspora and all that.

I don't expect to, and it in fact would be presumptuous to try to convince you otherwise, but my point is this: Despite your best arguments, most of the world won't agree with you on that point. Therefore, politically, you can't really expect to get much traction with that line of argument.

No matter how certain you are its true, its an international dead-end, and if you want to claim the land on those basis's (bases?) you're gonna have to give up a lot of the help from the international community.

Even if you're right.

631 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:43:41pm

re: #621 LudwigVanQuixote

Heh. We of part Germanic descent have very little of value to add to the subject of 'conquest'.../

632 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:43:42pm

re: #561 Gus 802

President Obama is not going to the Arab League Summit.

I hope not. I meant figuratively.

633 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:43:54pm

re: #625 marjoriemoon
You'd think he'd remember the lesson his father had with having a whole bunch of terrorists living on your doorstep.

634 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:43:58pm

re: #578 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes he did. The smart move would have been to expel the Arabs right there.

Of course, since Israelis can't be bothered to do construction jobs, we ought to have built Jerusalem up from the rubble it was ourselves and not given jobs and housing to the Arabs who now live in East Jerusalem. We really did bring it on ourselves.

Here is another thing.

It is normal for every city in the world, which has an expanding population, to build on its previously uninhabited outskirts. Only in Jerusalem are the city planners not allowed to do that, because the Jordanian Legion happened to be close to that empty terrain at a particular moment in 1949, when all sides were told to lay down their arms.

635 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:45:31pm

re: #609 windsagio

No, but I wouldn't expect a German to be all fired up about it either, that was my point. Especially when you talk about things like 'G-d gave us the land'. Some people might agree with you, but most of the world, you must admit would not, and you have to understand that.

True, but at the same time, much Palestinian support has flowed from claims equally abstract and culturally determined, and these have received great respect in international circles.

Rock bottom--Israel is a fact on the ground.

636 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:45:50pm

re: #591 LudwigVanQuixote

What is 'firm action'?

637 windsagio  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:45:54pm

re: #627 Aceofwhat?

What Ludwig is suggesting isn't 'acting badly like Egypt', but rather 'throwing a number of international agreements in the worlds face'.

re: #629 Racer X

You know I keep hearing that, but 'which palestinians'? They're ont really a monolithic state like Israel is. And thats beyond Fatah and Hamas.

638 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:46:28pm

re: #610 Aceofwhat?

as opposed to their neighbors, who receive no aid from other countries??

and don't we give a lot of money to, say, Egypt as well??

Egypt is #2 on the list. And yet, they are not being publically nagged to take Gaza back.

639 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:46:31pm

re: #635 SanFranciscoZionist
Someone show me a 2000 yr old palestinian coin or settlement.

640 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:46:47pm

re: #621 LudwigVanQuixote

And before anyone gets liberally offended by the term right of conquest, I ask the following simple question.

Name one state of the Union that we do not claim by right of conquest?

Alaska, bought fair and square off of Imperial Russia for cold hard cash.

641 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:46:50pm

re: #621 LudwigVanQuixote

Of course I understand that. That is also why I listed right of history and right of conquest from others who attacked us.

And before anyone gets liberally offended by the term right of conquest, I ask the following simple question.

Name one state of the Union that we do not claim by right of conquest?

Name one major European nation or Asian nation that was not formed by right of conquest.

BUt if you don't like that, what of right of history and right of culture?

It is our land by any measure and more our land than your hypothetical German has claim to Germany.

Why do you keep saying "our"? Do you possess dual citizenship?

642 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:48:00pm

re: #630 windsagio

I don't know how well you can apply your argument to Germany man, those people were there for a freaking long time.

And like it or not, the situation with Israel is complex, what with the diaspora and all that.

I don't expect to, and it in fact would be presumptuous to try to convince you otherwise, but my point is this: Despite your best arguments, most of the world won't agree with you on that point. Therefore, politically, you can't really expect to get much traction with that line of argument.

No matter how certain you are its true, its an international dead-end, and if you want to claim the land on those basis's (bases?) you're gonna have to give up a lot of the help from the international community.

Even if you're right.

Yes the Germanic tribes that became the Germans conquered the land that became Germany a long time ago. It was still conquest and more recent than the Jewish claim to Israel.

About the only people who own any land that was not theirs by right of conquest are the Australian aborigines. Ohhh but they were conquered too, and Australia claims Australia by right of conquest.

643 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:48:02pm

re: #640 goddamnedfrank
Louisiana Purchase with all that entailed.

644 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:48:09pm

re: #635 SanFranciscoZionist

Israel's legitimacy as a state is unquestionable, or else every state is questionable.

A lot of people seem to think if they can logically prove some abstract flaw in the founding of Israel, that Israel will close up shop and leave, muttering, "Ya got me." It's really baffling.

645 windsagio  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:48:12pm

re: #635 SanFranciscoZionist

not denying them their right to exist, but rather responding to the 'screw the world lets do this!' attitude.

If people wanna go that way (and its funny, 'cuz alot of people in Israel are a TON more liberal on the subject than the people on this blog :p) then they have to be ready to face the problems it will raise.

You'll never ever hear me say that they don't have the right, bla bla. I look at them as if they were any European country really, just with some bad internal problems/problems with the neighbors (depending on how you define things :p)

646 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:48:26pm

re: #621 LudwigVanQuixote

I've always been curious what the rough date was when "claiming by conquest" officially became obsolete.

My guess would be between 1880 and World War 1. The Boer War was the end state of the UK taking over and annexing lands in southern Africa. And those actions were roundly condemned by other countries. The United States was critical of impositions made in China (The Open Door Policy), but that was more about trade concessions and extraterritoriality than actual claim of ownership.

With the end of WW1 you have Wilson trying to bring American philosophies into wider political use, plus the Turkish and Austro-Hungarian empires breaking up into much smaller sovereign states that would be throwing off their earlier state of being conquered peoples.

647 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:48:32pm

re: #629 Racer X

Don't the Palestinians receive like, a ton of financial aid?

Millions from the U.S. and from the U.N. Everyone knows where it goes and no one does anything about it. Not to the Arabs living in the territories, I'll tell you that.

648 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:48:48pm

re: #617 windsagio

I think this came up before, it was guaranteed by Camp David right?

If Egypt essentially said "Screw you guys we're invading Gaza and Libya", you might expect us to cut them off. NOTE: I'm not equating what ludwig said with that, but I couldn't think of an appropriate parallel for Egypt. Israel's situaion really is unique in that sense ;p

What exactly IS Israel doing?

649 Kragar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:49:02pm

re: #622 lawhawk

Israeli military censors may have limited reporting on the matter from within Israel, but if Reuters or AFP have sources inside Gaza, they might be reporting in that fashion.

Also, three terror groups took responsibility for killing two Israeli soldiers today:

The al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade is a Fatah spinoff - which was unmentioned by the WaPo in its coverage. Fancy that.

This third group, Palestine Taliban, is a new group and likely yet another alphabet terror group that thinks Hamas and Fatah aren't sufficiently Islamofascist.

Better bomb the shit out of all three just to be on the safe side.

650 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:49:28pm

re: #637 windsagio

What Ludwig is suggesting isn't 'acting badly like Egypt', but rather 'throwing a number of international agreements in the worlds face'.

on the other hand, no specific population is determinedly killing Egyptians or firing missiles into Egyptian territory.

If i am not mistaken, LVQ is suggesting allowing the Palestinians to bear the consequences of violating international agreements, not suggesting that Israelis should simply act out of bloodlust...

651 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:49:37pm

re: #648 SanFranciscoZionist
Existing

652 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:49:41pm

re: #633 pingjockey

You'd think he'd remember the lesson his father had with having a whole bunch of terrorists living on your doorstep.

I don't get that one at all. I mean he's usually quiet and keeps to himself. Now he decides to bash Israel?

653 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:49:45pm

re: #633 pingjockey

You'd think he'd remember the lesson his father had with having a whole bunch of terrorists living on your doorstep.

His daddy killed a whole bunch of Palestinians, about 10,000, during "Black September" in 1970 and everyone who has such complete recall of the "Nakba" and "Sabra and Shatilla" seems to have completely forgotten about this.

654 windsagio  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:49:51pm

re: #642 LudwigVanQuixote

Dude, c'mon. You're arguing the first, largely throwaway line of my post and ignoring the rest.

re: #648 SanFranciscoZionist

This whole discussion is a response to what LVQ said they should do.

655 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:50:20pm

re: #638 SanFranciscoZionist

Egypt is #2 on the list. And yet, they are not being publically nagged to take Gaza back.

Exaaactly. Makes it hard for me to hear whiny complaints about Israelis trying to build houses in Jerusalem...

656 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:51:18pm

re: #640 goddamnedfrank

Alaska, bought fair and square off of Imperial Russia for cold hard cash.

And the Russians conquered Alaska from the Yupik and the Inuit.

657 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:51:25pm

re: #615 pingjockey

IIRC, Egypt gets over 3 billion in aid, Israel gets 2 billion.


Egypt has gotten about $28 billion in the last 30 years. Israel has gotten about $113 billion in US Aid--but going back to 1949 (sorry...some of this is a little dated).

The main areas of assistance include trade, investment, environment, antiquities, tourism, education, health, family planning, water, power, telecommunications, democracy, the justice system and civil society such as Egyptian non-governmental organizations.
USAID BY THE NUMBERS
1975-2006 2006 Budget
Helping the economy $14.4 billion $344 million
Education $911 million $73 million
Health, family planning $872 milion $25 million
Infrastructure $5.6 billion
Democracy, governance $1 billion $48 million

Israeli aid

Over the last 20 years, the U.S. has been slowly phasing out economic aid to Israel and gradually replacing it with increased military aid. Beginning in 2007, the U.S. has been increasing military aid by $150 million each year. By FY2013, we will be sending Israel $3.15 billion a year (or an average of $8.6 million a day) and will continue to provide military aid at that level through 2018. U.S. tax dollars are subsidizing one of the most powerful foreign militaries. According to the CRS report, “[current U.S. military aid] grants to Israel represent 18.5% of the overall Israeli defense budget.”

Contrary to ordinary U.S. policy, Israel has been and continues to be allowed to use over 26% of this military aid to purchase equipment from Israeli manufacturers. According to CRS, “no other recipient of U.S. military assistance has been granted this benefit.” Thanks in part to this indirect U.S. subsidy, Israel’s arms industry has become one of the strongest in the world. “In 2007, it was the 8th largest arms supplier to the developing world.”

But hey, it's only money. How they spend it is their business.

658 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:51:40pm

re: #653 Alouette
Yep. Arafat tried to overthrow the king and there was a whole bunch of kiling. But that's ok because it wasn't the Israelis defending themselves.

659 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:52:10pm

re: #636 Obdicut

What is 'firm action'?

Actually carrying military campaigns out and not shying away from the bad press of fighting to win. For example, if you go into Lebanon, go into Lebanon and don't leave until you have destroyed the Hezzies - even if that does mean there will be collateral damage. Don't risk the live of your men so insanely to save their civilians. Fight honorably, but if you are going to be called murderers anyway, then fight at the same standard that the US would apply - which is much more harsh.

IF you want hostages back, make it very simple. Say to the good people of Gaza, you elected a terrorist government. You really are responsible for their terrorist acts, the water is shut off until our boys come home.

In otherwords, stop fucking around and fight by the same standards that America or any European nation would fight to.

660 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:52:20pm

re: #631 Aceofwhat?

Heh. We of part Germanic descent have very little of value to add to the subject of 'conquest'.../

Christianity -- and that is its greatest merit -- has somewhat
mitigated that brutal German love of war, but it could not destroy
it. Should that subduing talisman, the cross, be shattered, the
frenzied madness of the ancient warriors, that insane Berserk rage
of which Nordic bards have spoken and sung so often, will once
more burst into flame. ... The old stone gods will then rise from
long ruins and rub the dust of a thousand years from their eyes,
and Thor will leap to life with his giant hammer and smash the
Gothic cathedrals. ... Do not smile at my advice -- the advice of
a dreamer who warns you against Kantians, Fichteans, and
philosophers of nature. Do not smile at the visionary who
anticipates the same revolution in the realm of the visible as has
taken place in the spiritual. Thought precedes action as lightning
precedes thunder. German thunder ... comes rolling somewhat
slowly, but .. its crash ... will be unlike anything before in the
history of the world. ... At that uproar the eagles of the air
will drop dead, and lions in farthest Africa will draw in their
tails and slink away. ... A play will be performed in Germany
which will make the French Revolution look like an innocent idyll.
-- Heinrich Heine, early 19th Century

661 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:52:30pm

re: #653 Alouette

The main source of the pain of the Palestinian people is their treatment at the hands of the other Arab nations.

It angers me whenever anyone talks about Israel, Palestine, and the US without talking about the role of the Arab states, the very, very wealthy Arab states that could easily provide for all the Palestinians in the refugee camps but prefer to keep them living terrible lives for political gain.

662 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:52:34pm

re: #640 goddamnedfrank

Alaska, bought fair and square off of Imperial Russia for cold hard cash.

Yeah, but the Russians...

663 windsagio  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:52:37pm

(first of all, I should say, thanks for distracting me from my upcoming extraction :p That being said, I'm not arguing anything I don't agree with)

re: #656 Alouette

ARRGH! You guys keep arguing for points that nobody's disputing!

664 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:53:01pm

re: #643 pingjockey

Louisiana Purchase with all that entailed.

France claimed it, and then the U.S. had to conquer it from the Cheyenne, the Lakota, the Crow, etc.

665 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:53:28pm

re: #640 goddamnedfrank

Alaska, bought fair and square off of Imperial Russia for cold hard cash.

Which had been taken from the Eskimos by right of conquest by the Russians. Sorry. No cigar.

666 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:53:55pm

re: #645 windsagio

not denying them their right to exist, but rather responding to the 'screw the world lets do this!' attitude.

If people wanna go that way (and its funny, 'cuz alot of people in Israel are a TON more liberal on the subject than the people on this blog :p) then they have to be ready to face the problems it will raise.

You'll never ever hear me say that they don't have the right, bla bla. I look at them as if they were any European country really, just with some bad internal problems/problems with the neighbors (depending on how you define things :p)

I'd say the world screwed first, really.

667 Ericus58  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:53:58pm

Israeli troops killed in Gaza border clashes

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

Seems like this might be an even-handed report by the BBC.... but alas, that's not true.
The video at the top of the report is a 40 second video of Palestinians running for cover from a lone Israeli helicopter in the distance firing flares and a possible strike against a target way off camera in the distance. Ambulances racing of course included....

The BBC does not report evenly on Israel. Period.

668 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:54:16pm

re: #664 Alouette
Damn those pesky facts. :)

669 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:54:29pm

re: #644 Obdicut

Israel's legitimacy as a state is unquestionable, or else every state is questionable.

A lot of people seem to think if they can logically prove some abstract flaw in the founding of Israel, that Israel will close up shop and leave, muttering, "Ya got me." It's really baffling.

Ok so England says, "We're giving half to the Arabs and half to the Jews." The Arabs say, "Screw you, we want it all" and proceed to terrorize the Israelis(1947)

Arafat is offered 100% of Gaza and 90% of Jerusalem and he says, "Screw you, we want you dead" and proceed to terrorize the Israelis. (2000)

You can really never please some people.

670 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:54:40pm

re: #642 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes the Germanic tribes that became the Germans conquered the land that became Germany a long time ago. It was still conquest and more recent than the Jewish claim to Israel.

About the only people who own any land that was not theirs by right of conquest are the Australian aborigines. Ohhh but they were conquered too, and Australia claims Australia by right of conquest.

The trouble with the might-makes-right argument is, you've got no moral standing to object if the Arabs ever get it together, and make Israel "one with Nienveh and Tyre", and Outre-Mer.

671 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:55:00pm

re: #660 The Sanity Inspector


Yeah, my great-grandfather got the hell outta dodge, for which i'm eternally grateful...

672 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:55:17pm

re: #653 Alouette

His daddy killed a whole bunch of Palestinians, about 10,000, during "Black September" in 1970 and everyone who has such complete recall of the "Nakba" and "Sabra and Shatilla" seems to have completely forgotten about this.

Palestinian lives are measured on a double currency. Sad but true.

673 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:55:38pm

re: #657 darthstar

By the way...I'm not judging Israel or the Palestinians. I believe our country, odd as this sounds, has had a vested interest in continued instability in Israel for years. A big chunk of their economy, and our defense industry, is built around that clusterfuck.

674 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:55:52pm

re: #670 The Sanity Inspector
The Arabs have tried that one before. Remember the UAR?

675 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:56:04pm

re: #659 LudwigVanQuixote

In otherwords, stop fucking around and fight by the same standards that America or any European nation would fight to.

I'm sorry, I'm still not clear what this means. Does it involve occupying those territories-- like Gaza and the West Bank-- and absorbing them into Israel? Or just deposing the Hamas government and holding new elections, or...?

676 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:56:24pm

re: #663 windsagio

(first of all, I should say, thanks for distracting me from my upcoming extraction :p That being said, I'm not arguing anything I don't agree with)

ARRGH! You guys keep arguing for points that nobody's disputing!


I'm sorry, I have an hysterical study hall going on.

677 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:56:49pm

re: #656 Alouette

And the Russians conquered Alaska from the Yupik and the Inuit.

That conquest is not our burden though, just like the sins of the British Mandate of Palestine are not Israel's to bear.

678 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:56:58pm

re: #640 goddamnedfrank

Alaska, bought fair and square off of Imperial Russia for cold hard cash.

Czar not democratically elected, so your Alaska is belong to us, Americanski swineski.

679 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:57:20pm

re: #661 Obdicut

The main source of the pain of the Palestinian people is their treatment at the hands of the other Arab nations.

It angers me whenever anyone talks about Israel, Palestine, and the US without talking about the role of the Arab states, the very, very wealthy Arab states that could easily provide for all the Palestinians in the refugee camps but prefer to keep them living terrible lives for political gain.

That is why the real solution is the "23 state solution" with the Arab countries (especially Jordan and Syria) re-integrating the Palestinians into their populations.

The pampered little kingie angrily rejected this suggestion and asserted his divine right to squat in his very own royal kingdom, while stripping the Palestinians of their citizenship, and (projecting) scolding the Israelis for stuff that his daddy and grand-daddy did.

I fucking despise that weinergobbling little kingie.

680 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:57:40pm

re: #678 Spare O'Lake

Czar not democratically elected, so your Alaska is belong to us, Americanski swineski.

In Soviet Alaska you don't hunt wolf, KGB wolf hunt you!

;)

681 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:57:42pm

re: #676 SanFranciscoZionist
I have never been in or seen a hysterical study hall. What's up?

682 freetoken  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:58:16pm

re: #673 darthstar

A big chunk of their economy, and our defense industry, is built around that clusterfuck.

I do not believe this is accurate. Our defense industry grew up around the cold war antagonisms.

Even in the ME, our main strategic interest is the oil in the Persian Gulf region, not in Israel's existence.

683 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:58:57pm

re: #681 pingjockey

I have never been in or seen a hysterical study hall. What's up?

you were never in study hall when chaos erupted?

684 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:59:23pm

re: #681 pingjockey

I have never been in or seen a hysterical study hall. What's up?

Kids don't want to work. It's Friday, and next week is a short week. They're chattering like squirrels. We had a mango juice spill.

685 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:59:30pm

re: #679 Alouette

I mostly agree, though I'd note that's a solution for the Palestinians, not for Israel. If that happened without the Arab states also acknowledging Israel's right to exist, attacks on Israel would still continue with depressing regularity.

686 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 1:59:43pm

re: #681 pingjockey

I have never been in or seen a hysterical study hall. What's up?

Oh, and a kid got stuck in a desk.

687 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:00:16pm

re: #669 marjoriemoon

Ok so England says, "We're giving half to the Arabs and half to the Jews." The Arabs say, "Screw you, we want it all" and proceed to terrorize the Israelis(1947)

Arafat is offered 100% of Gaza and 90% of Jerusalem and he says, "Screw you, we want you dead" and proceed to terrorize the Israelis. (2000)

You can really never please some people.

Actually the British gave 3/4 to the Arabs in 1923 (to the wienergobbling little kingie's great grand-daddy) and then divided the remaining 1/4 in 1947.

688 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:00:28pm
689 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:00:40pm

re: #686 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, and a kid got stuck in a desk.

leaving them for a bit might be an interesting lesson...

690 brookly red  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:00:41pm

re: #682 freetoken

I do not believe this is accurate. Our defense industry grew up around the cold war antagonisms.

Even in the ME, our main strategic interest is the oil in the Persian Gulf region, not in Israel's existence.


True & if the cold war heats up again the two become more closely linked.

691 windsagio  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:00:51pm

This is the pattern, and its annoying: People get so into the preset lines of argument, that they can't break out of the chains and engage:

The perfect example would be this right of conquest thing. NOBODY IS COMPLAINING ABOUT THE IDEA OF RIGHT OF CONQUEST! The only objections, are in general, people trying to think of counterexamples for fun. And yet there's this monomoniacal focus on the idea, as if anybody is denying Israel's claim to their state.

My whole point is that no matter how much you believe your positions, the rest of the world doesn't, and thus if Israel did as Ludwig said and just invaded, They would have to accept the diplomatic cost.

Beyond that, the only people who should make that decision are those actually living in Israel. I really don't want to offend anyone, but its just to easy for somebody living in SF or NY (or Portland) to say 'oh they should invade', and not expect to pay the cost in $$$ and lives themselves. Its freaking cavalier.

692 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:00:52pm

re: #646 oaktree

I've always been curious what the rough date was when "claiming by conquest" officially became obsolete.

My guess would be between 1880 and World War 1. The Boer War was the end state of the UK taking over and annexing lands in southern Africa. And those actions were roundly condemned by other countries. The United States was critical of impositions made in China (The Open Door Policy), but that was more about trade concessions and extraterritoriality than actual claim of ownership.

With the end of WW1 you have Wilson trying to bring American philosophies into wider political use, plus the Turkish and Austro-Hungarian empires breaking up into much smaller sovereign states that would be throwing off their earlier state of being conquered peoples.

I hate to bring this up, but aren't you forgetting the North Vietnamese military conquest of South Vietnam which occurred AFTER the 1967 Israeli conquest of Gaza and the West Bank?

693 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:00:53pm

re: #676 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm sorry, I have an hysterical study hall going on.

"Look behind you, teacher!" *spitball*

694 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:01:06pm

re: #643 pingjockey

Louisiana Purchase with all that entailed.

Hmmm... the French conquered that from the Indians and sold that to us. Then we proceeded to wipe out the Indians in an act of open genocide. Not a good example.

The only possible place where there is real room for debate is Hawaii. So OK, I will rephrase it, what part of the Continental US was not taken by conquest?

695 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:01:08pm

re: #684 SanFranciscoZionist

Kids don't want to work. It's Friday, and next week is a short week. They're chattering like squirrels. We had a mango juice spill.

What age group SFZ?

696 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:01:53pm

re: #661 Obdicut

The main source of the pain of the Palestinian people is their treatment at the hands of the other Arab nations.

It angers me whenever anyone talks about Israel, Palestine, and the US without talking about the role of the Arab states, the very, very wealthy Arab states that could easily provide for all the Palestinians in the refugee camps but prefer to keep them living terrible lives for political gain.

This is an excellent post!

697 windsagio  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:02:10pm

And I've gotta go, got a (&@$(*#@ dentist appointment. Despite the previous diatribe I hope you all have a good day!

698 freetoken  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:02:14pm

Throw another one on the pile:

New sex charges against French priest

699 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:02:33pm

re: #687 Alouette

Actually the British gave 3/4 to the Arabs in 1923 (to the wienergobbling little kingie's great grand-daddy) and then divided the remaining 1/4 in 1947.

Oh yes, after WWI....

Not a fan of the II are you?? lol I can dig it.

700 windsagio  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:02:41pm

re: #697 windsagio

or few hours, if they decide I don't need vicodin again, and can actually type while I bleed.

701 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:03:04pm

re: #691 windsagio

This is the pattern, and its annoying: People get so into the preset lines of argument, that they can't break out of the chains and engage:

The perfect example would be this right of conquest thing. NOBODY IS COMPLAINING ABOUT THE IDEA OF RIGHT OF CONQUEST! The only objections, are in general, people trying to think of counterexamples for fun. And yet there's this monomoniacal focus on the idea, as if anybody is denying Israel's claim to their state.

My whole point is that no matter how much you believe your positions, the rest of the world doesn't, and thus if Israel did as Ludwig said and just invaded, They would have to accept the diplomatic cost.

Beyond that, the only people who should make that decision are those actually living in Israel. I really don't want to offend anyone, but its just to easy for somebody living in SF or NY (or Portland) to say 'oh they should invade', and not expect to pay the cost in $$$ and lives themselves. Its freaking cavalier.

Absolutely agreed. Israel will make the decision. No one else can do it for them. And they know the stakes.

What the diplomatic consequences are is something I think we can and should be more involved in.

702 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:03:31pm

re: #650 Aceofwhat?

on the other hand, no specific population is determinedly killing Egyptians or firing missiles into Egyptian territory.

If i am not mistaken, LVQ is suggesting allowing the Palestinians to bear the consequences of violating international agreements, not suggesting that Israelis should simply act out of bloodlust...

That is exactly what I am saying.

703 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:04:30pm

re: #679 Alouette

That is why the real solution is the "23 state solution" with the Arab countries (especially Jordan and Syria) re-integrating the Palestinians into their populations.

The pampered little kingie angrily rejected this suggestion and asserted his divine right to squat in his very own royal kingdom, while stripping the Palestinians of their citizenship, and (projecting) scolding the Israelis for stuff that his daddy and grand-daddy did.

I fucking despise that weinergobbling little kingie.

Amen Sister!

704 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:04:59pm

re: #694 LudwigVanQuixote

Hmmm... the French conquered that from the Indians and sold that to us. Then we proceeded to wipe out the Indians in an act of open genocide. Not a good example.

The only possible place where there is real room for debate is Hawaii. So OK, I will rephrase it, what part of the Continental US was not taken by conquest?

Well, Manhattan was purchased, but I think that was a cultural misunderstanding anyway.

705 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:05:31pm

re: #695 HoosierHoops

What age group SFZ?

High school.

706 brookly red  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:05:43pm

re: #702 LudwigVanQuixote

That is exactly what I am saying.

it could work...

707 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:06:00pm

re: #667 Ericus58

Israeli troops killed in Gaza border clashes

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

Seems like this might be an even-handed report by the BBC... but alas, that's not true.
The video at the top of the report is a 40 second video of Palestinians running for cover from a lone Israeli helicopter in the distance firing flares and a possible strike against a target way off camera in the distance. Ambulances racing of course included...

The BBC does not report evenly on Israel. Period.

It seldom has. Partly for domestic reasons. Whenever they do sharply criticize the Palestinians, they get accused of being "controlled by Jews" and the draw death threats and protests from Islamic rent-a-mobs.

708 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:06:07pm

On the thread topic of the bad political tone that has been developing in the country, I would like to remind the Lizards that IMHO it was foolish to elect someone who could say "typical (anything) person" and denigrate others as "bitter" and "clinging to guns and religion."

It is hardly surprising the continued direction that the country is taking.

I'm just saying.

709 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:06:13pm

re: #682 freetoken

I do not believe this is accurate. Our defense industry grew up around the cold war antagonisms.

Even in the ME, our main strategic interest is the oil in the Persian Gulf region, not in Israel's existence.

Yes, but the cold war ended during Reagan's administration. You can't justify a huge defense budget if you don't have a possible enemy to protect yourself from, and the instability of Israel and its relationship to its neighbors is a constant. It doesn't change. If it's not suicide bombers, it's a wall to segregate the country. If it's not katusha rockets, it's a settlement on disputed land. It's always something.

Two Israeli soldiers were killed today. Airstrikes will likely follow in response. Hell, there are people upthread calling for the purification of Israel (i.e. the expulsion of Arabs)...like THAT'S a solution. (it is, if you believe this will bring on the rapture)

710 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:06:21pm

re: #694 LudwigVanQuixote

Hmmm... the French conquered that from the Indians and sold that to us. Then we proceeded to wipe out the Indians in an act of open genocide. Not a good example.

The only possible place where there is real room for debate is Hawaii. So OK, I will rephrase it, what part of the Continental US was not taken by conquest?

If I have my mythology correct Texas was born full formed from Sam Houston's forehead.

711 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:06:45pm

re: #705 SanFranciscoZionist

Hey, Happy Friday & you get a short week, next week too!

712 ryannon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:08:03pm

re: #481 Cato the Elder

Blacks came to the country against their will before it was a country. I know you know that, just a reminder.

Often captured by other African blacks, sold to Islamic arab middlemen and transported to America by Christian sailors.

713 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:08:11pm

re: #692 Spare O'Lake

I hate to bring this up, but aren't you forgetting the North Vietnamese military conquest of South Vietnam which occurred AFTER the 1967 Israeli conquest of Gaza and the West Bank?

Good question. I'm not sure what the "traditional" state boundaries were in that area previous to the French and Japanese exhibiting control in Indo-China. The area was partitioned in the 1950s, but how artificial was the boundary? Something I'd need to look into more. And the same would apply I guess to what the borders are for Laos and Cambodia as well.

And I wonder if the same applied to Korea right after WW2. Was Korea traditionally more of a monolithic cultural block with a "modern" artificial divide made, or was the border devised along something of a cultural split between north and south. (At this point I think there might be a readily identifiable cultural split there.)

Thus my quick answer might be that Vietnam was a country re-uniting by conquest. But I do not want to say that since I do not have the facts on hand to back it up. So I simply present that as a theory. :)

714 brookly red  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:08:32pm

re: #704 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, Manhattan was purchased, but I think that was a cultural misunderstanding anyway.

/they didn't read it before they voted on it ;)

715 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:08:34pm

The assertion of the right of conquest was never stated so baldly and unapologetically as in Andrew Jackson's inaugural address:

What good man would prefer a country covered with forests and ranged by a few thousand savages to our extensive Republic, studded with cities, towns, and prosperous farms, embellished with all the improvements which art can devise or industry execute.

716 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:08:52pm

re: #710 goddamnedfrank

The Gadsen Purchase was bought by the USA from Mexico, so that's bought, if you don't want to look into how Mexico came by it.

717 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:08:57pm

re: #686 SanFranciscoZionist
Y'all need to slow down. Went to check the laundry and now I'm 30 posts behind!

718 Kragar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:09:23pm

MAN, WTF is with today? People been pulling bullshit crazy stupid work out of their butts all day.

719 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:09:31pm

re: #706 brookly red

it could work...

Yes, but they main problem with it is the "enemies with cameras" of the international press. If you make Arab civilians suffer (even justifiably) then that suffering is what leads the news. Israel would have to accept a cutoff of US aid to effect such a strategy with the current administration in DC.

720 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:10:11pm

re: #704 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, Manhattan was purchased, but I think that was a cultural misunderstanding anyway.

Hey, those were hand-made blankets and trinkets the Indians got for Manhattan...not plastic crap from China.
/

721 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:10:36pm

re: #694 LudwigVanQuixote
I don't think any.

722 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:10:44pm

re: #719 Dark_Falcon

Yes, but they main problem with it is the "enemies with cameras" of the international press. If you make Arab civilians suffer (even justifiably) then that suffering is what leads the news. Israel would have to accept a cutoff of US aid to effect such a strategy with the current administration in DC.

Which is why they don't. It is humiliating.

723 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:10:55pm

re: #705 SanFranciscoZionist

High school.

You may be the luckiest Teacher in the World.. You could have had me in high school as a student..I wouldn't wish that on anyone...
*wink*

724 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:10:58pm

re: #721 pingjockey

I don't think any.

Kinda my point.

725 Silvergirl  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:11:51pm

re: #708 Ojoe

On the thread topic of the bad political tone that has been developing in the country, I would like to remind the Lizards that IMHO it was foolish to elect someone who could say "typical (anything) person" and denigrate others as "bitter" and "clinging to guns and religion."

It is hardly surprising the continued direction that the country is taking.

I'm just saying.


He can own his share of the divisive pie, true.

726 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:11:55pm

re: #708 Ojoe

On the thread topic of the bad political tone that has been developing in the country, I would like to remind the Lizards that IMHO it was foolish to elect someone who could say "typical (anything) person" and denigrate others as "bitter" and "clinging to guns and religion."

It is hardly surprising the continued direction that the country is taking.

I'm just saying.

I know you don't want to hear this, but that was so taken out of context. Think of all the gaffs made by George W and the country didn't blow up to a near civil war over it.

727 brookly red  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:11:59pm

re: #719 Dark_Falcon

Yes, but they main problem with it is the "enemies with cameras" of the international press. If you make Arab civilians suffer (even justifiably) then that suffering is what leads the news. Israel would have to accept a cutoff of US aid to effect such a strategy with the current administration in DC.

it may be going that way anyhow... but sooner or later somethings gotta give.

728 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:12:18pm

re: #718 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

MAN, WTF is with today? People been pulling bullshit crazy stupid work out of their butts all day.

It's Friday.

729 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:13:15pm

re: #727 brookly red

it may be going that way anyhow... but sooner or later somethings gotta give.

True, but what something is the question.

730 brookly red  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:14:21pm

re: #729 Dark_Falcon

True, but what something is the question.

I still say give both sides something they can agree on... bring in NK peacekeepers.

731 solomonpanting  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:14:38pm

re: #694 LudwigVanQuixote

Then we proceeded to wipe out the Indians in an act of open genocide

If, by genocide, you mean deaths from diseases, then your statement is correct.

732 What, me worry?  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:14:49pm

I must tarry. Be back to taunt you a second time :)~

(new thread just appeared I see)

733 Ericus58  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:15:31pm

re: #709 darthstar

Yes, but the cold war ended during Reagan's administration. You can't justify a huge defense budget if you don't have a possible enemy to protect yourself from, and the instability of Israel and its relationship to its neighbors is a constant. It doesn't change. If it's not suicide bombers, it's a wall to segregate the country. If it's not katusha rockets, it's a settlement on disputed land. It's always something.

Two Israeli soldiers were killed today. Airstrikes will likely follow in response. Hell, there are people upthread calling for the purification of Israel (i.e. the expulsion of Arabs)...like THAT'S a solution. (it is, if you believe this will bring on the rapture)

Please allow me to say this with no meaning of disrespect, but I think you are a bit naive in your assessment of the US not having a need for a strong and capable Military. My time is short here, but the reasons are many due to the various nations and groups around the world that would make terrible mischief without our ability.

And our Military is not just for warfare - witness Haiti.

734 Obdicut  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:16:31pm

re: #731 solomonpanting

Well-- the US showed that it wasn't above individual acts of genocide. Individual peoples, tribes, were in fact wiped out by direct action on the part of the US.

That disease killed the vast majority of Indians is true. Doesn't take away from the clear ideas that the US had that the Indians could be exterminated when it was useful to do so.

735 Silvergirl  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:17:03pm

re: #726 marjoriemoon

I know you don't want to hear this, but that was so taken out of context. Think of all the gaffs made by George W and the country didn't blow up to a near civil war over it.

I don't blame the President for all the "bad craziness." People choose their reactions. Still, there is a division people feel, that cannot be neatly covered with the blanket charge of racism.

736 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:17:55pm

If I am not mistaken the North Vietnamese won a military conquest of South Vietnam which occurred AFTER the 1967 Israeli conquest of Gaza and the West Bank.
Why doesn't Obama encourage formation of a terrorist government in South Vietnam and then round up UN support to delegitimize and undo Hanoi's victory, instead of denying Israel the fruits of Israel's own military conquest in 1967.
EPIC DOUBLE STANDARD.

737 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:18:27pm

re: #713 oaktree

Good question. I'm not sure what the "traditional" state boundaries were in that area previous to the French and Japanese exhibiting control in Indo-China. The area was partitioned in the 1950s, but how artificial was the boundary? Something I'd need to look into more. And the same would apply I guess to what the borders are for Laos and Cambodia as well.

And I wonder if the same applied to Korea right after WW2. Was Korea traditionally more of a monolithic cultural block with a "modern" artificial divide made, or was the border devised along something of a cultural split between north and south. (At this point I think there might be a readily identifiable cultural split there.)

Thus my quick answer might be that Vietnam was a country re-uniting by conquest. But I do not want to say that since I do not have the facts on hand to back it up. So I simply present that as a theory. :)

Re Korea: The division of the peninsula at the 38th parallel was dictated at one of the post-war conferences, as a demarcation line between Soviet and American troops. Before that it was a Japanese colony, since 1910. And before that it was a weak, seldom unified kingdom, a tributary of China. Caught as "a shrimp between three whales" as they were, they are still fiercely proud of haivng preserved their ethnic identity over the years.

There was no especial division between North and South Koreans in 1945, but after a half century of semi-starvation, North Koreans are noticeably smaller in frame than Koreans in the South.

738 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:18:42pm

re: #716 Ojoe

The Gadsen Purchase was bought by the USA from Mexico, so that's bought, if you don't want to look into how Mexico came by it.

California was transferred to the US by the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, but once again...

739 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:19:25pm

re: #731 solomonpanting

If, by genocide, you mean deaths from diseases, then your statement is correct.

NO I mean Indian scalping kits sold in the Sears catalog so people could collect the bounties on Indians they murdered. I mean everything from the Trail of tears to wounded knee. I mean many many Americans going out and openly murdering Indians. I mean open and deliberate genocide.

740 pingjockey  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:19:25pm

re: #733 Ericus58
Was watching commons question hour the other day. The UK spends 65 billion on defense, 165 billion on their nat'l health service. How can they do this? The US still protects Europe. We leave the EU to it's own defense and we can cut our defense budget.

741 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:19:30pm

re: #733 Ericus58

Please allow me to say this with no meaning of disrespect, but I think you are a bit naive in your assessment of the US not having a need for a strong and capable Military. My time is short here, but the reasons are many due to the various nations and groups around the world that would make terrible mischief without our ability.


Agreed...we are the world's cop. I think we actually take pride in that fact, though when something happens in a country with no valuable resources like Darfur, people argue, "We're not the world's cop!" and we tend to do nothing sometimes.

And our Military is not just for warfare - witness Haiti.


Yes, the military makes a great disaster relief organization. Agreed again.

BTW, I'm not saying we don't need a strong and capable military. Every country needs a strong and capable military. Ours is just a little oversized, that's all. I mean, we have 10 Supercarrier fleets. Ten. That's ten more supercarrier fleets than the rest of the planet combined.

742 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:20:30pm

re: #731 solomonpanting

If, by genocide, you mean deaths from diseases, then your statement is correct.

That's a touch too sanitized. A lot of deaths on the Trail of Tears, for example, were 'from diseases'.

743 solomonpanting  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:21:23pm

re: #734 Obdicut

That disease killed the vast majority of Indians is true

Which is my point, thank you very much.

744 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:22:07pm

re: #741 darthstar

Ours is just a little oversized, that's all. I mean, we have 10 Supercarrier fleets. Ten. That's ten more supercarrier fleets than the rest of the planet combined.

Times of general world peace (now is one) come when there is one dominant power.

745 darthstar  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:22:37pm

re: #734 Obdicut

Well-- the US showed that it wasn't above individual acts of genocide. Individual peoples, tribes, were in fact wiped out by direct action on the part of the US.

That disease killed the vast majority of Indians is true. Doesn't take away from the clear ideas that the US had that the Indians could be exterminated when it was useful to do so.

That common cold is a bitch, I tell you.

746 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:23:15pm

re: #725 Silvergirl

The guy at the top is responsible for the general atmosphere & I don't think there are many exceptions to this.

747 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:36:58pm

re: #692 Spare O'Lake

I hate to bring this up, but aren't you forgetting the North Vietnamese military conquest of South Vietnam which occurred AFTER the 1967 Israeli conquest of Gaza and the West Bank?

Good question. I'm not sure what the "traditional" state boundaries were in that area previous to the French and Japanese exhibiting control in Indo-China. The area was partitioned in the 1950s, but how artificial was the boundary? Something I'd need to look into more. And the same would apply I guess to what the borders are for Laos and Cambodia as well.

And I wonder if the same applied to Korea right after WW2. Was Korea traditionally more of a monolithic cultural block with a "modern" artificial divide made, or was the border devised along something of a cultural split between north and south. (At this point I think there might be a readily identifiable cultural split there.)

Thus my quick answer might be that Vietnam was a country re-uniting by conquest. But I do not want to say that since I do not have the facts on hand to back it up. So I simply present that as a theory. :)

748 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:40:16pm

re: #723 HoosierHoops

You may be the luckiest Teacher in the World.. You could have had me in high school as a student..I wouldn't wish that on anyone...
*wink*

Time for a High School Story..
My History Teacher was my track coach.. One day he came up to me at practice and said he wanted to try something in class about how different people view the same thing but see it completely different..
OK I'm in..What do you want to do coach..
Tomorrow I want us to get in a fight in class...I'll kick you out and have all the students write a report for the principle...
Then we'll read them all and see how differing the reports are...It will be a good teaching lesson..
*Why me Coach?*
Are you kidding me? Who else could pull this off loud mouth?
Yea..I gotta go with ya coach..Wimps..History freaking wimps..
So the next day in class I started talking to some one in the back of the Class..Coach told me to be Quiet.. And then it was on..I'm trash talking him and he is getting pissed out of control..
It was a thing of Beauty.. Just the look in the eyes of the kids..Shut up! are you nuts..The look in their eyes was great...It was a great fight..I didn't hold back..
Coach kicks me out of Class..I left saying something really insulting and slammed the door and left..
Coach told everybody to write down what just happened in detail..
so... about 20 minutes I come strolling back in the class and hugged the coach and we were just laughing..
You should have seen their eyes then...Disbelief and shock...
Then he read all the papers from everyone...
A teaching moment...
/It's not fun reading what people said about you in front of class...But it was really fun overall...

749 Bagua  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:43:23pm

re: #679 Alouette

Excellent and historically accurate.

750 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:48:46pm

re: #670 The Sanity Inspector

The trouble with the might-makes-right argument is, you've got no moral standing to object if the Arabs ever get it together, and make Israel "one with Nienveh and Tyre", and Outre-Mer.

You are absolutely correct. That is why I did not list right of conquest first. Our main argument for the land is that it really is our very own historical homeland.

My point in bringing right of conquest is to point out that most people live places that have no claim to their land nearly as strong as Israel does to it's own land.

My point is one of hypocrisy.

My point is that by any measure, Israel has more right to Israel than the US does to Pennsylvania.

751 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 2:52:20pm

Addendum. My previous comment does not address how you define who the correct "owners" of a piece of the planet are. It just seems to strike me that whomever was residing there in 1920 or so is often held to be the default claimant. The government might change (re: Vietnam) but the dwellers there seem to have the claim.

I do not agree that this is the way it should be held in all cases, but it just appears to be the default as accepted in general by the current world civilization. And the best known cases where mass evictions/executions or refugee/starvation crisis-es have occurred (Armenia, Ukraine, Europe, Baltic "ethnic cleansing", etc.) have drawn considerable criticism from other countries.

The Israel/Palestine case is a particular mess. The original settlement was mixed, and it's been used as a political football for almost a hundred years at this point, including being a pawn in the superpower Cold War games. I, for one, believe that Israel has the right to exist in peace. Beyond that there is no simple solution that would fit in one paragraph, or probably even one page. Meanwhile, the Palestinian Authority and Hamas continue to prove that their main goal appears to be goading Israel rather than learning how to administer a territory and prove they are actually able to govern a country.

752 dr. luba  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 3:02:48pm

re: #373 HappyWarrior

re: #373 HappyWarrior

Did the immigration rally get any attention last weekend? Heard they got up to 100,000 people there.

Actually, using teabagger metrics, there were a GAZILLION people there.

Remember, then, prior to the war, there were millions of people marching in the streets of the US against the war? And millions more around the world? Little to no coverage in the MSM here. But twenty teabaggers gather in DC, and they get headline coverage.

I'm sure that's just a coincidence.

753 ryannon  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 3:05:26pm

re: #726 marjoriemoon

I know you don't want to hear this, but that was so taken out of context. Think of all the gaffs made by George W and the country didn't blow up to a near civil war over it.

Maybe because they were funny?

754 dr. luba  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 3:12:14pm

re: #405 darthstar

Dominicans are better.

I don't smoke, but friends tell me you can buy truly fine cigars from Nicaragua. Apparently a portion of the Cuban diaspora settled there (during the times of the Somozas) and brought their cigar-making technology/traditions with them.

755 Ojoe  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 6:28:36pm

re: #726 marjoriemoon

As far as I recall GWB never denigrated a whole group of people.

I don't think you are comparing the same things.

756 Querent  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 7:51:19pm

re: #10 MandyManners

Bigplankton is an asshole lower than pond scum.

Never thought i'd have to fix something for Mandy, but... there you go.

757 lostlakehiker  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 7:57:23pm

re: #646 oaktree

I've always been curious what the rough date was when "claiming by conquest" officially became obsolete.

My guess would be between 1880 and World War 1. The Boer War was the end state of the UK taking over and annexing lands in southern Africa. And those actions were roundly condemned by other countries. The United States was critical of impositions made in China (The Open Door Policy), but that was more about trade concessions and extraterritoriality than actual claim of ownership.

With the end of WW1 you have Wilson trying to bring American philosophies into wider political use, plus the Turkish and Austro-Hungarian empires breaking up into much smaller sovereign states that would be throwing off their earlier state of being conquered peoples.

Russia claims its share of East Prussia by right of conquest. They made sure that Germany would not have a counterclaim by right of demographics; they ethnic-cleansed the place of Germans. Now given what the Germans had just done to Russia, and given that East Prussia was the heart of the German military tradition, this behavior doesn't warrant the kind of vehement denunciation it otherwise would. But there you have an example of a merely 65-year old right of conquest claim.

758 Querent  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 8:14:10pm

re: #163 9Iron

Really? Because I believe in smaller government intrusion into my life I don't like people of color? I just want to be clear here.

There were loads and loads of bad apples in the protests the liberals were launching on the other side during the Bush years. I suppose that most of you will denounce the democrat party because of that as well, right?

Not only will we, we DID denounce them, damned near daily.
Seriously, that bad crazy gave me migraines.

759 Querent  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 8:28:31pm

re: #256 keloyd

"...but the media will always have the attention span of a goldfish.

Rotating Title Nomination!!

760 Querent  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 9:18:50pm

re: #679 Alouette

I fucking despise that weinergobbling little kingie.

No, don't hold back, tell us how you REALLY feel...

761 enigma3535  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:12:19pm

re: #751 oaktree

Sir or Madam:

I am troubled regarding the current situation in the Middle East/Israel.

There does not appear to be any meaningful resolution [or path] to the Palestinian conflict.

At this point, I am both chagrined regarding those Israel's that want to do what is needed to make peace possible, and those Israel's that give a shiate about whatever any one else thinks about their rights to extend this conflict ... whatever those rights might be ... and be damned any arab rights.

At this point, IMHO, the US of A is f'*k'd. Even, FUBAR'd.

This one would say "whatever", but this one cares too much about the implications of this situation for this one's offspring ...

This one hopes that those in charge in Israel and DC get their shiate together and resolve this shiate before things get out of hand.

762 missykrissy  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 10:24:19pm

Absence of proof is not proof of absence - but neither is it proof of presence.

Given that the no-proof side seems full of 'proof, what proof' and the 'prove it' side seems yet unfaced with ANY sort of proof ( despite the many recording devices on ALL sides) I shall have to be American and go with innocent until proven guilty.

Your assumptions, of course, may vary.

763 Charles Johnson  Fri, Mar 26, 2010 11:17:55pm

re: #762 missykrissy

Oh, really? Because from here it looks like you're assuming that Rep. Lewis, a genuine hero of the civil rights movement, is guilty of LYING. Based on nothing except the word of Andrew Breitbart.

764 stayfrosty  Sat, Mar 27, 2010 1:59:23am

re: #763 Charles

That's pretty rich, Charles. First, she never said anything about anyone lying, only that she won't jump to conclusions before seeing any evidence. And Andrew Breitbart is irrelevant here. The skeptics are basing their skepticism on the fact that not a single recording in a sea of people taking video in every location within the crow, including right next to Rep. Lewis, has shown any such thing whatsoever. Straw man much?

765 Charles Johnson  Sat, Mar 27, 2010 10:02:41am

re: #764 stayfrosty

The idiocy makes my head hurt.

766 Buck  Sat, Mar 27, 2010 3:43:30pm

I don't suppose I am the only one who remembers when people would come here and leave horrible comments that were meant to 'catch us' as racists.

We even gave the practice a name... we called it Moby, after the pop singer who suggested that people do it.

So we had people from the left coming here and saying the most horrible things (that were racists), and then picking out those comments (within minutes) to prove we all were racists.

We also had to ban a lot of people who did think that the comments were ok make.

HOWEVER it never meant that the great majority of us were racist, or awere willing to put up with them in our midst.

767 Buck  Sat, Mar 27, 2010 4:17:17pm

re: #726 marjoriemoon

I know you don't want to hear this, but that was so taken out of context. Think of all the gaffs made by George W and the country didn't blow up to a near civil war over it.

Over and over again, GWB was accused of dividing the country. It was a serious theme.

I don't think that characterizing what is currently happening as 'near civil war' is helpful. In fact the tea party protests have been very peaceful.

How many 'protesters' were arrested during the racist filled anti-war protests during the past years?

768 nopeace4traitors  Sun, Mar 28, 2010 12:06:18am

I know for a fact that the slurs were used. I heard them from 3 Duke Lacrosse players in the crowd. And there was also a Cambridge police officer there acting stupidly.

I also remember when I used to come to this site daily because it was interesting and informative. Now it's just another playground for KosKidz.

769 nopeace4traitors  Sun, Mar 28, 2010 5:19:05am

Oh dear. It looks like proof of the charges is out there. Dan Rather has the audio.

And answer this...How is it that a dozen members of the Congressional Black Caucus found themselves meandering roundabout thru the thick of the protestors when everyone else obviously went around them? Did they all arrive for the vote at the same time? Did Charlie Rangel lend them his mini van so they could car pool? Only someone obsessed with hating and beating "the other side" would be so blind as to take this as anything more than a stunt orchestrated to evoke some loopable footage for left wing hate media. Now comes the predictable hispanic leftist congresscrook claiming to have been called a "wetback".

The last refuge of the panicked and desperate democrat is race baiting. And while racists are bad, their hate can be contributed to ignorance and fear, unlike the race baiter (including those here) who know exactly what they are doing and why.That's TRUE degeneracy.

770 Charles Johnson  Sun, Mar 28, 2010 9:50:54am

re: #769 nopeace4traitors

I'm doing you a favor and blocking your account, because you're going to be much happier at some other site where your kind of racist excuse-making is accepted.

771 Euler  Sun, Mar 28, 2010 10:57:28am

re: #110 MandyManners

What Mandy's posts lack in rigor,
she more than makes up for with vigor
in pressing her case
to the Republican base,
her charms are best savored with liqour.


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Yesterday
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Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
2 weeks ago
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