Frank Schaeffer on the Michigan ‘End Times’ Militia

Religion • Views: 3,501

Here’s a disturbing article by Frank Schaeffer on the extreme apocalyptic ideology that drives groups like the “Hutaree” militia; keep in mind as you read that Schaeffer was once part of the inner circle of the religious right, and knew many of these people personally: The Evangelical ‘Mainstream’ Insanity Behind the Michigan ‘End Times’ Militia.

A time-out for disclosure is in order.

I knew Jerry Jenkins quite well many years ago, and we worked on a baseball book project together, with me trying — and failing — to get his book made into a movie. I also have known Tim LaHaye for years, and some thirty years ago we shared the platform at several fundamentalist far right events. I’m betting that they mean well. It seems to me that they also have no idea what they have helped unleash. You can be very decent and very blind.

That said, the evangelical/fundamentalists — and hence, from the early 1980s until the election of President Obama in 2008, the Religious Right as it informed U.S. policy through the then dominant Republican Party — are in the grip of an apocalyptic Rapture cult centered on revenge and vindication. This End Times death wish is built on a literalist interpretation of the Book of Revelation.

Given that Revelation is now being hyped as the literal — even desired — roadmap to Armageddon, it’s worth pausing to note that it’s nothing more than a bizarre pastoral letter that was addressed to seven specific churches in Asia at the end of the first century by someone (maybe John or maybe not) who appears to have been far from well when he wrote it. In any case, the letter was not intended for use outside of its liturgical context, not to mention that it reads like Jesus on acid.

The Left Behind series is really just recycled evangelical/fundamentalist profit taking from scraps of “prophecy” left over from an earlier commercial effort to mine the vein of fearsome End Times gold. A book called The Late Great Planet Earth was the 1970s incarnation of this nonsense. It was written by Hal Lindsey, a “writer” who dropped by my parents’ ministry several times.

Lindsey’s The Late Great Planet Earth interpreted Revelation for a generation of paranoid evangelicals who were terrified of the Soviet Union and communism and were convinced that the existence of the modern State of Israel was the sign that Jesus was on the way in our lifetimes, as Lindsey claimed.

After everything predicted in the book came to nothing, Lindsey rewrote and “updated” his “interpretations” in many sequels.

According to Jenkins and LaHaye, who have taken over the Hal Lindsey franchise of apocalypse-for-fun-and-profit and expanded it into a vast industry, the “chosen” will soon be airlifted to safety. The focus on the “signs” leading up to this hoped-for aeronautical excursion is understandably no longer the defunct U.S.S.R. but the ripped-from-the-headlines gift that keeps on giving: the Middle East. Check out the accused cop killer’s website and you’ll find a preoccupation with the Middle East. …

Jenkins and LaHaye provide the ultimate revenge fantasy for the culturally left behind against the “elite.” They do theologically what Sarah Palin does politically: divide the world and America into “Them” and Us.”

The Left Behind franchise holds out hope for the self-disenfranchised that at last everyone will know “we” were right and “they” were wrong. They’ll know because Spaceship Jesus will come back and whisk us away, leaving everyone else to ponder just how very lost they are because they refused to say the words, “I accept Jesus as my personal savior” and join our side while there was still time! Even better: Jesus will kill all those smart-ass, Democrat-voting, overeducated people who have been mocking us!

All the folks in Michigan did was decide to start the killing a little early.

Read the whole thing…

Jump to bottom

244 comments
1 MandyManners  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 10:34:24am

LaHaye is a whore. He’s in it for the money.

2 pingjockey  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 10:36:23am

Revelations has no bearing on todays modern world. IMO. It’s a scary read, just read it the other day after watching the Hunt for Red October for the 50th time and wanted to read the passage right. It was addressed to some people 2000 years ago. IIRC, there isn’t anything about a “rapture” in it.

3 reloadingisnotahobby  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 10:36:46am

Not far out there from the Hale Bop bunch…Sheesh!

4 [deleted]  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 10:37:06am
5 austin_blue  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 10:37:56am

re: #1 MandyManners

LaHaye is a whore. He’s in it for the money.

Yes, but he’s a really *rich* whore.

;-)

6 pingjockey  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 10:38:36am

BTW, for what’s its worth(not much) one of the Hutaree is a registered Dem. I don’t care, Dem, Repub, Paulian, Rastafarian, nuts is nuts.

7 iceweasel  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 10:38:49am

Slacktivist also has a useful post on this:
The Hutaree Tribulation Force

There’s not much left to add to that, but let me weigh in on one aspect of this story that falls in my bailiwick: the Hutarifarianites’ apocalyptic, End-Times-prophecy obsession with the Antichrist.

Chip Berlet discussed this aspect of the group last night on Rachel Maddow, noting that what these folks believe is “the plot of the Left Behind novels.” But that’s only partly true.

We’ve discussed before some of the esoteric but fiercely contested disputes among End Times enthusiasts and “Bible prophecy scholars.” The anti-American Hutaree militia’s Web site includes/included several links to one such dispute in particular: the question of a “pre-Trib Rapture.”

This is where the Hutarianists break with Left Behind architect Tim LaHaye and other famous prophecy nuts like Hal Lindsay or John Hagee. LaHaye et. al. believe that the End Times will begin with the “Rapture” of all Christians — “Jesus coming to get us before we die.” One day very, very soon every Christian on earth will disappear — snatched up to Heaven — and then it’s all downhill from there for those left behind on earth and for the earth itself.

After this Rapture, Tim LaHaye believes, the Antichrist will take power and rule over a One World Government during the seven-year Great Tribulation. The Antichrist is supposed to be the embodiment of evil, but nothing he does during this Tribulation can begin to compare to the nasty plagues and torments handed down by LaHaye’s god during this period. At the end of the Tribulation comes the final battle, Armageddon, which ends with Jesus’ second second coming. Then rocks fall, everyone dies.

The Hutaristas envision a different timeline for the End Times. They believe the Rapture won’t come until the end of the seven-year Tribulation. For these camouflaged Christianist al-Qaida wannabes, this seems less a theological dispute (to the extent that any of this premillennial dispensationalist nonsense can be called “theology”) than it is a preference for what they think sounds like the more exciting option.

They’ve read all the Left Behind books and they’ve decided they want in on the End Times action. If all the real, true Christians get whisked away before the global cataclysms of the Tribulation, they would miss out on all the fun. All their survivalist gear and stockpiled ammunition would go to waste.

8 austin_blue  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 10:39:45am

re: #6 pingjockey

BTW, for what’s its worth(not much) one of the Hutaree is a registered Dem. I don’t care, Dem, Repub, Paulian, Rastafarian, nuts is nuts.

Hatriot Infiltraitor!

9 Cato the Elder  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 10:40:08am
In any case, the letter was not intended for use outside of its liturgical context, not to mention that it reads like Jesus on acid.

LOL. I’ve been saying that for decades.

10 reloadingisnotahobby  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 10:40:26am

re: #4 MikeySDCA

re: #8 austin_blue

GMTA!
…A MOLE!!

11 pingjockey  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 10:42:11am

re: #8 austin_blue
I hope the guy that got inside this group gets a nice long vacation with a lot of booze!

12 reloadingisnotahobby  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 10:43:41am

Got stuff ta do…
Armageddon outta here!!

13 austin_blue  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 10:45:27am

re: #11 pingjockey

I hope the guy that got inside this group gets a nice long vacation with a lot of booze!

I think he deserves it. And probably needs it. And a *lot* of shower time to scrub teh krazee ick off of himself.

14 reine.de.tout  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 10:46:59am

Excellent article, Charles.
Thank you.

15 pingjockey  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 10:48:38am

re: #13 austin_blue

Yep. I’d think lotsa hot water and soap!

16 Cato the Elder  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 10:50:54am
enkins and LaHaye provide the ultimate revenge fantasy for the culturally left behind against the “elite.” They do theologically what Sarah Palin does politically: divide the world and America into “Them” and Us.”

Exactly.

And the ties that bind the theological and the political sides of the Apocolyptogasm Express are firm and unbreakable.

17 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 10:52:38am

I admire Mr. Schaeffer quite a bit. He was raised as a strict Fundamentalist. He’s very honest about his experience.

18 butterick  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 10:55:15am

Terrific article. I’ve seen Schaeffer interviewed before and he’s always lucid and enlightening. The time he spent in the midst of and as one of the people he’s criticizing gives him a unique insight into their character.

19 Charles Johnson  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 10:58:47am

re: #6 pingjockey

BTW, for what’s its worth(not much) one of the Hutaree is a registered Dem.

Showing once again that party registration is not a reliable indicator of a person’s politics, because there is nothing “left wing” about Hutaree.

20 iceweasel  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:00:10am

re: #17 prairiefire

re: #18 butterick

Agreed. There’s a good article from last year in slacktivist about the anti-abortion movement, and specifically Francis Schaeffer’s role in creating it. Also has an excerpt from Frank Schaeffer’s writings after Roeder murdered Dr Tiller— some video as well:
Killing in the Name Of

It would be hard to overstate the significance of the late Francis Schaeffer when it comes to the shape, tone, agenda and influence of evangelical Christianity in America. […]


Here’s a bit from that HuffPo essay:
Like many writers of moral/political/religious theories my father and I would have been shocked that someone took us at our word, walked into a Lutheran Church and pulled the trigger on an abortionist. But even if the murderer never read Dad’s or my words we helped create the climate that made this murder likely to happen.

In fact that very thing has happened before. In 1994, Dr. John Bayard Britton and one of his volunteer escorts were shot and killed outside an abortion clinic in Pensacola, Florida. Paul Hill, a former minister, was convicted of the killings and executed in 2003. Paul Hill was an avid follower of my father’s.

21 pingjockey  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:00:28am

re: #19 Charles
Yep. Kinda wish they had a party affiliation for “nutbat” or something equally descriptive for these maniacs.

22 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:00:46am
A book called The Late Great Planet Earth was the 1970s incarnation of this nonsense. It was written by Hal Lindsey, a “writer” who dropped by my parents’ ministry several times.
[…]
After everything predicted in the book came to nothing, Lindsey rewrote and “updated” his “interpretations” in many sequels.

I once saw a cartoon showing Hal Lindsey “ten years in the future”, sitting at the wheel of a Rolls Royce in the drive of his grand estate. “Gee” he says, “Guess I was wrong.”

23 pingjockey  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:03:01am

re: #22 The Sanity Inspector
IIRC, the History Channel has trotted him out for their end of the world stuff for 2012. Nostradamus, the Mayan calendar, Revelations all rolled up into one big apocolypse parade.

24 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:07:08am

re: #21 pingjockey

Yep. Kinda wish they had a party affiliation for “nutbat” or something equally descriptive for these maniacs.

An old Gary Larson cartoon could be adapted, perhaps, for identification purposes…

[Link: www.flickr.com…]

25 reloadingisnotahobby  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:07:48am

Christ said…”Give all that you have to the poor and come,follow me..”
I have no use for filthy rich “christian” Lower case intentional!
Either live it!Or STFU!

26 jc717  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:08:05am

Good afternoon lizards.
I just noticed that registration was opened and signed up. Been lurking around these parts for a few months. It’s refreshing to find civil political discourse on the internet these days.
It’s my b.day today.
The big 3 dozen.
Getting a LGF account is the third best present I’ve gotten thus far ;)

JC

27 MandyManners  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:08:31am

There’s nothing Christian about wanting to kill cops.

28 reloadingisnotahobby  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:08:56am

re: #26 jc717

Happy Birthday!!
…Define civil..?/LOL
Welcome!

29 MandyManners  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:09:02am

re: #26 jc717

WELCOME!

30 pingjockey  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:09:24am

re: #24 The Sanity Inspector
heh! Ya hit it!

31 reloadingisnotahobby  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:09:28am

re: #26 jc717

Some got laid!!Haha!

32 MandyManners  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:09:44am

re: #28 reloadingisnotahobby

Happy Birthday!!
…Define civil..?/LOL
Welcome!

Oh, yeah? Fuck you.

*shove*

33 pingjockey  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:09:59am

re: #26 jc717
Welcome aboard and Happy Birthday!

34 reloadingisnotahobby  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:10:13am

re: #31 reloadingisnotahobby

Some got laid!!Haha!

Someone…*pimf*

35 Spare O'Lake  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:10:30am

re: #19 Charles

Showing once again that party registration is not a reliable indicator of a person’s politics, because there is nothing “left wing” about Hutaree.

Nothing DEM or GOP about them.
They are radical extremist terrorist idealogues.

36 Lidane  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:11:06am

re: #27 MandyManners

There’s nothing Christian about wanting to kill cops.

Or wanting to bomb the police funerals so that you can kill more people.

37 reloadingisnotahobby  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:11:40am

re: #26 jc717

…Third best??
WTF!
You got a new Gulf Stream AND Porsche!!!

38 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:11:50am

re: #26 jc717

Good afternoon lizards.
I just noticed that registration was opened and signed up. Been lurking around these parts for a few months. It’s refreshing to find civil political discourse on the internet these days.
It’s my b.day today.
The big 3 dozen.
Getting a LGF account is the third best present I’ve gotten thus far ;)

JC

Welcome to the Lizard Army!

39 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:12:57am

re: #26 jc717

Is your Avatar from the movie “Z”?

40 Randall Gross  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:13:11am

re: #26 jc717

So tell us what you think of Ron Paul and his son Rand Paul.

/question triggered by the Guy Fawkes mask in your avatar.

41 jc717  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:14:37am

Thanks for the warm welcome everyone.
I’m off to a BBQ in CT.
It’s gorgeous out in these parts today.

42 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:14:39am

re: #26 jc717

Good afternoon lizards.
I just noticed that registration was opened and signed up. Been lurking around these parts for a few months. It’s refreshing to find civil political discourse on the internet these days.
It’s my b.day today.
The big 3 dozen.
Getting a LGF account is the third best present I’ve gotten thus far ;)

JC

Happy birthday and welcome. It being your birthday, you don’t have to fetch our slippers like the other hatchlings do.

43 Olsonist  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:18:02am

If LaHaye weren’t in it just for the money, wouldn’t he still be wrong?

44 Randall Gross  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:19:37am

I recall the first wave of survivalist militia types and religious right nutbags from the 80’s — the Howard Ruffians and End of timers were tied at the hip with the buy gold/bilderberger, bircher nativists and freeman militia crowds. We know how that road led to OKC too.

45 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:20:47am

“It reads like Jesus on acid”. That is the most lovely description of Revelations I have ever read.

46 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:21:47am

re: #2 pingjockey

Revelations has no bearing on todays modern world. IMO. It’s a scary read, just read it the other day after watching the Hunt for Red October for the 50th time and wanted to read the passage right. It was addressed to some people 2000 years ago. IIRC, there isn’t anything about a “rapture” in it.

I assume it has spiritual meaning. I equally assume it was never meant to be taken in a literal sense.

47 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:22:12am

re: #4 MikeySDCA

But then how many of the big-time God freaks aren’t? I once read a contention that half of the College of Cardinals don’t believe in God.

How would one confirm or disprove such a thing?

48 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:22:41am

I love this song:

I do not endorse the BDS, but I do think some of it’s catchy. I like the tune.

49 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:23:09am

re: #19 Charles

Showing once again that party registration is not a reliable indicator of a person’s politics, because there is nothing “left wing” about Hutaree.

Lot of people would tell you there’s nothing left wing about the Democratic Party.

50 pingjockey  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:23:18am

re: #46 SanFranciscoZionist

I’ll buy that.

51 MandyManners  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:23:30am

re: #43 Olsonist

If LaHaye weren’t in it just for the money, wouldn’t he still be wrong?

Yes.

52 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:23:46am

re: #45 SanFranciscoZionist

“It reads like Jesus on acid”. That is the most lovely description of Revelations I have ever read.

The description I like, which I can’t attribute because I never saw it again after I read it, was “a chink in the wall through which the wild wind howls.”

53 gatoratlaw  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:25:13am

I’m not going to take the time to look up the passage, but Jesus said no man will know when He will return.

All this bluster about the imminent coming of Christ is nothing more than snake oil. Christ himself said that no one will know. Anyone who says otherwise is just trying to sell something.

But we already knew that, didn’t we?

54 Randall Gross  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:26:32am

The birth and death of the Universe

no Rapture needed…

55 MandyManners  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:26:34am

re: #53 gatoratlaw

I’m not going to take the time to look up the passage, but Jesus said no man will know when He will return.

All this bluster about the imminent coming of Christ is nothing more than snake oil. Christ himself said that no one will know. Anyone who says otherwise is just trying to sell something.

But we already knew that, didn’t we?

Actually, didn’t Christ say that only God knows?

56 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:27:32am

re: #46 SanFranciscoZionist

I assume it has spiritual meaning. I equally assume it was never meant to be taken in a literal sense.

It was intended to hearten Christians during a time of Roman persecution—Domitian’s, I think.

If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.
— Revelation 13:9-11

57 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:27:48am

re: #43 Olsonist

If LaHaye weren’t in it just for the money, wouldn’t he still be wrong?

Presumably, yes, but I guess crazy behavior based in true belief gets a slightly bigger pass from me than crazy behavior for the money.

If you’re writing fantasy fiction, you should be very clear with your fans about what it is. I am minded of the late great Marion Zimmer Bradley, who when she was asked by an adoring fan how much of The Mists of Avalon she had ‘channeled’ said, “Honey, I’m not a medium. I’m a large.”

58 gatoratlaw  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:28:36am

re: #55 MandyManners

Actually, didn’t Christ say that only God knows?

Didn’t I say I’m not going to look up the passage? ;)

And holy trinity, etc

59 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:29:51am

“The modern habit of saying, “Every man has a different philosophy; this is my philosophy and it suits me”—the habit of saying this is mere weak mindedness. A cosmic philosophy is not constructed to fit a man; a cosmic philosophy is constructed to fit a cosmos. A man can no more possess a private religion than he can possess a private sun and moon.”
— G. K. Chesterton

60 Randall Gross  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:31:34am

Phear the big rip, not the rapture…

61 Locker  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:32:27am

Ok this article was very interesting but not surprising. I can respect anyone’s beliefs if they inspire some kind of positive action. On the other hand I do not have to respect someone’s grown up Santa Claus fantasy inspired hatred and violence just because they hide behind a mask of religious morality. Stringent marginalization is required.

62 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:33:19am

“Family Radio,” out of Oakland California, IIRC, has been predicting that the rapture will occur at the end of May, 2012.

I will try to ge a link.

63 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:34:52am

“get”

PIMF

64 MandyManners  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:35:26am

re: #62 Ojoe

“Family Radio,” out of Oakland California, IIRC, has been predicting that the rapture will occur at the end of May, 2012.

I will try to ge a link.

What’s their Biblical justification?

66 MandyManners  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:36:47am

re: #62 Ojoe

May 21, 2011.

67 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:37:24am

re: #64 MandyManners

I don’t know & I really don’t want to know…

I just hear them sometimes when I’m truck driving.

68 MandyManners  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:38:33am

re: #67 Ojoe

I don’t know & I really don’t want to know…

I just hear them sometimes when I’m truck driving.

I misread that as “drunk driving”. Oops.

69 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:38:39am

re: #62 Ojoe

“Family Radio,” out of Oakland California, IIRC, has been predicting that the rapture will occur at the end of May, 2012.

I will try to ge a link.

*snicker*…

70 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:39:26am

re: #68 MandyManners

LOL. I would crash right away if I tried that.

71 MandyManners  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:39:56am

re: #66 MandyManners

May 21, 2011.

Harold Camping lets out a hearty chuckle when he considers the people who believe the world will end in 2012.

“That date has not one stitch of biblical authority,” Camping says. …

What’s *his* authority?

72 Randall Gross  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:41:14am

re: #62 Ojoe

American Family Radio is a fundamentalist org tied at the hip with the old Falwell AFA org. Tony Perkins etc. They are one of the biggest sources of hate for homsexuals on the airwaves.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

73 nightfly  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:42:31am

Greetings Lizards from a recent registrant. Been lurking awhile & enjoy LGF now that the krazees have moved on to redder pastures. As someone on the left side of the dial, I think LGF has become a site frequented by many who wouldn’t have dared a few years ago. Credit to Charles for monitoring his blog & removing obvious trolls.

I don’t spend much time online anymore but will try to comment when I have something to contribute.

74 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:44:10am

re: #65 Ojoe

Family Radio. Judgement day’s date is at the bottom of their home page.

Loons. So a Mayan calender cycle ends in 2-12, and everyone goes nuts over it. Stupid, just plain stupid.

75 MandyManners  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:44:52am

re: #74 Dark_Falcon

Loons. So a Mayan calender cycle ends in 2-12, and everyone goes nuts over it. Stupid, just plain stupid.

Camping says it ends next May.

76 Randall Gross  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:45:38am

re: #65 Ojoe

Hrm — they are just plain “Family Radio” — not “American Family Radio” so disregard the previous reply and link, although they seem to be on the same wavelength politically as AFR…

77 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:46:26am

re: #6 pingjockey

BTW, for what’s its worth(not much) one of the Hutaree is a registered Dem. I don’t care, Dem, Repub, Paulian, Rastafarian, nuts is nuts.

Yeah, Glenn Reynolds and Michelle Malkin were making a big deal out of that too. During the Bush years many of the anti-government nuts, Paulians, etc, gravitated to the Dems. Although people like Beck are recent converts they regard many Republicans (Lincoln, Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Bush) as part of the global conspiracy to destroy the United States.

78 Randall Gross  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:46:36am

re: #73 nightfly

Welcome

79 What, me worry?  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:48:32am

Don’t the Iranians have their own doomsday clock?

80 pingjockey  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:49:44am

re: #77 Killgore Trout
Lincoln, T. Roosevelt or FDR, and Bush were a threat to destrou the US?
I can see extreme right wingers as thinking Wilson an FDR might try to pull something, but the others?!

81 Randall Gross  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:51:06am

aaaaaayeeeeeeeee…..
arggggggh


All respect for R. Guiliani now completely gone.

[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com…]

82 Linden Arden  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:51:38am

The Book of Revelation was written in fantasy code after Rome destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 CE by an early Christian prisoner of Rome.

The Beast = Rome

Four Horsemen = four Emperors of Rome.

666 = Hebrew numerology for Nero.

etc etc etc.

83 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:53:13am

re: #77 Killgore Trout

Yeah, Glenn Reynolds and Michelle Malkin were making a big deal out of that too. During the Bush years many of the anti-government nuts, Paulians, etc, gravitated to the Dems. Although people like Beck are recent converts they regard many Republicans (Lincoln, Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Bush) as part of the global conspiracy to destroy the United States.

An equally likely scenario is that the single registered Dem did so as an Operation Chaos Limbaugh dittohead. It most states it is generally difficult try to screw with the other party’s primary without officially registering with that party.

84 Locker  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:53:37am

re: #73 nightfly

Welcome to the jungle. Watch out for the Jabberwocky.

85 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:54:52am

re: #80 pingjockey

Lincoln, T. Roosevelt or FDR, and Bush were a threat to destrou the US?
I can see extreme right wingers as thinking Wilson an FDR might try to pull something, but the others?!

Indeed. There was even a panel speech at CPAC this year (moderated by Andrew Napalitano) about what an evil tyrant Lincoln was. Beck often includes Bush in his rants about to 100 year old “progressive” Cloward Piven conspiracy.
I’m pretty sure the Birch Society considers most of our Presidents since the civil war to be part of the conspiracy with very few exceptions for people like Robert Taft.

86 Randall Gross  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:55:25am

re: #84 Locker

Snickersnack snickersnee….

87 MandyManners  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:55:50am

re: #84 Locker

Welcome to the jungle. Watch out for the Jabberwocky.

I’m more scared of the Bandersnatch.

88 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:56:33am

re: #81 Thanos

aaayeee…
argggh

All respect for R. Guiliani now completely gone.

[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com…]

Yeah, I’m not sure about their theory about Rudy getting revenge on Crist. I don’t really care what his motivations are. Rudy endorsed Hoffman too. He certainly turned out to be a disappointment.

89 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:57:04am

re: #83 goddamnedfrank

An equally likely scenario is that the single registered Dem did so as an Operation Chaos Limbaugh dittohead. It most states it is generally difficult try to screw with the other party’s primary without officially registering with that party.

That’s possible too.

90 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:57:35am

re: #76 Thanos

OK

91 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:57:47am
92 pingjockey  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:57:54am

re: #85 Killgore Trout
IIRC. Lincoln suspended Habeaus Corpus, can’t remember what else that was “onerus”. He was fighting a civil war at the time! Bush is in with Cloward/Piven? WTF?!

93 austin_blue  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 11:59:51am

re: #87 MandyManners

I’m more scared of the Bandersnatch.

They are very famously frumious!

And ((teehee)) Mandy said, “Snatch”.

94 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:00:13pm

re: #91 Killgore Trout

Koskidz are laughing it up today: BREAKING! President Obama is black! (Updatedx4 - Now with Freeper quotes!)

It’s nobody’s business but Barack Obama’s how he defines himself racially.

95 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:00:33pm

re: #93 austin_blue

SMACK!

96 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:01:10pm

re: #85 Killgore Trout

Indeed. There was even a panel speech at CPAC this year (moderated by Andrew Napalitano) about what an evil tyrant Lincoln was.

I recall Mr. N saying on the web that “Lincoln made war on half the country” and was the “most unconstitutional president.”

What a moron Mr. N. is.

BBL

97 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:03:51pm

“In your hands, not mine, my dissatisfied fellow countrymen, lies the momentous issue of civil war.”

A. Lincoln, 1st inaugural address.

BBL really

98 pingjockey  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:03:55pm

BBIAW

99 Randall Gross  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:05:04pm

re: #91 Killgore Trout

Koskidz are laughing it up today: BREAKING! President Obama is black! (Updatedx4 - Now with Freeper quotes!)

To continue the theme… “Oh Frabjous Day!”

100 austin_blue  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:05:21pm

re: #96 Ojoe

I recall Mr. N saying on the web that “Lincoln made war on half the country” and was the “most unconstitutional president.”

What a moron Mr. N. is.

BBL

Yeah, the half which still seems to be revolting.

;-)

101 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:07:38pm

During a period when veterans were big news, every time an ex-soldier got himself in a jam the fact that he was a vet was pointed out in the headline. An ordinary killing or assault seldom rated the front page, but if it involved a jealous veteran or battle-fatigue case, it could be sure of a prominent play. The newspapers that did this pointed out that it was good journalism; people were interested in veterans and everybody likes to know personality angles on people who do spectacular things. But the sad fact was that such headlines gave added impetus to the rumor that always appears in every country after a war—that the returning soldiers are trained in killing and assault and are potential menaces to society.

Police records show that World War II veterans committed no more and no fewer crimes in proportion to their numbers than the rest of the citizenry, and after a while most reputable newspapers stopped headlining veterans every time they got into trouble. Of course, journals that have always been noted for morbid and spectacular reporting, and that keep more of an eye on quick circulation than accuracy and fairness, still continue the odious practice of saying “CRAZED VET RUNS AMOK” when some character with a load of gin under his belt breaks a bar mirror.
Bill Mauldin, Back Home, 1947

102 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:08:13pm

re: #100 austin_blue

Yeah, the half which still seems to be revolting.

;-)

…???…When did Michigan and Idaho move to the South?

103 austin_blue  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:08:40pm

re: #94 Dark_Falcon

It’s nobody’s business but Barack Obama’s how he defines himself racially.

I’ve always wondered they don’t have a “mixed race” block. I mean, Tiger once described himself as a “CaBlInAsian”.

104 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:08:52pm

re: #92 pingjockey

Here’s an example…
Beck Claims that George W. Bush and John McCain Are Progressives


“You know George Bush was a progressive. He was a Republican. John McCain is a bigger progressive. He was a Republican. What do you think hurt the Republican Party? Do you think it was conservative values, or do you think it was the progressive side of George W. Bush?”

You may be asking yourself, where does this leave Barack Obama? Well I am glad you asked because Beck said, “I think Barack Obama. The country may not survive Barack Obama, and it’s not just Barack Obama, but it is the progressive movement, that this is the fulfillment of it. This is the moment. This is the great progressive moment in American history. This is it.


To add a little context: Beck uses “progressive” as a synonym for Communist, Socialist and fascist. To Beck and his viewers they all mean the same thing.

105 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:09:52pm

re: #99 Thanos

Callou, Callay!

106 austin_blue  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:10:18pm

re: #102 The Sanity Inspector

…???…When did Michigan and Idaho move to the South?

Joke joke joke…

107 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:12:13pm

re: #103 austin_blue

I’ve always wondered they don’t have a “mixed race” block. I mean, Tiger once described himself as a “CaBlInAsian”.

It’s a cultural thing. In South America and the Caribbean they make more of a distintion. The have different words for people who are part white, part indian, part spanish, and all sorts of variations. Here in America, for better or worse, we don’t really make much of a cultural distinction about mixed races.

108 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:12:28pm

Hamid Karzai is a corrupt jackass:

At one point, Mr. Karzai suggested that he himself would be compelled to join the Taliban if the Parliament didn’t back his controversial attempt to take control of the country’s electoral watchdog from the United Nations, according to two of those who attended the meeting. The people included a close ally of the president.

Cut him some slack people, something could have been lost in translation, that was probably hilarious in Pashto.

Or … maybe he’s just a huge dick.

109 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:15:19pm

re: #107 Killgore Trout

It’s a cultural thing. In South America and the Caribbean they make more of a distintion. The have different words for people who are part white, part indian, part spanish, and all sorts of variations. Here in America, for better or worse, we don’t really make much of a cultural distinction about mixed races.

We erred in the other direction.

110 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:19:07pm

re: #108 goddamnedfrank

Hamid Karzai is a corrupt jackass:

Cut him some slack people, something could have been lost in translation, that was probably hilarious in Pashto.

Or … maybe he’s just a huge dick.

Can you do the satire defense in Afghanistan?

111 austin_blue  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:20:39pm

re: #107 Killgore Trout

It’s a cultural thing. In South America and the Caribbean they make more of a distintion. The have different words for people who are part white, part indian, part spanish, and all sorts of variations. Here in America, for better or worse, we don’t really make much of a cultural distinction about mixed races.

Reminds me just tad of South Africa’s “One Drop” rule. Unfortunate.

I lived on and off for a decade in New Orleans where were three distinct classes:

Whites, Mixed-race Creoles (generally Catholic and middle-class) and Black (generally Protestants and all too often under-class). When the Notorious Mr. Jefferson (third group) ran against Sidney Barthelemy (second group) for Mayor,
his minions put out flyers ll over town claiming that Barthelemy was “too white”. Judge for yourself:

Image: morial%2Bat%2Bmeeting.jpg

112 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:22:02pm

re: #35 Spare O’Lake

Nothing DEM or GOP about them.
They are radical extremist terrorist idealogues.

They’re not Republican. They are however, far right-wing and an extreme byproduct of extremist evangelical rhetoric. Apocalyptic evangelicals in general have little influence over Democrats, and much influence over the GOP.

113 austin_blue  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:23:44pm

re: #109 The Sanity Inspector

We erred in the other direction.

Damn, I didn’t know we had it too!

114 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:24:41pm

re: #111 austin_blue

The image widget won’t display hotlinked pictures on blogspot. How about linking to the blog entry instead?

115 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:26:07pm

re: #109 The Sanity Inspector

Interesting. I hadn’t heard of the Pencil Test before.

116 austin_blue  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:26:47pm

re: #114 The Sanity Inspector

The image widget won’t display hotlinked pictures on blogspot. How about linking to the blog entry instead?

Oops, sorry. Here
[Link: societyessays.blogspot.com…]

117 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:28:36pm
“Mainstream” (in other words, slightly less nutty and less violent) religious-right Republicans have been saying the same thing as Brunn about the Fed for years, particularly the so-called “dominionists” who believe it’s their job to reestablish God’s dominion on earth. They preach Old Testament-style vengeance and loony gold-standard “economics” from many “respectable” pulpits. They also hate America (as it is), want a revolution in the name of God, and espouse “pro-life” beliefs, anti-gay hate, racism, and far-right Republican politics. They take the Republican anti-government propaganda to the next step and say that even paying taxes is “unconstitutional.” I know them well.

I knew the founders of the dominionist movement — people like the late Reverend Rousas John Rushdoony, the father of “Christian Reconstructionism” and the modern evangelical/fundamentalist home school movement. Rushdoony (whom I met and talked with several times) believed that interracial marriage, which he referred to as “unequal yoking,” should be made illegal. He also opposed “enforced integration,” referred to Southern slavery as “benevolent,” and said that “some people are by nature slaves.”

Frightful and sick people. There’s a reason I’m afraid of them, and I’m afraid of any politician who dogwhistles to them. The star of Michelle Bachmann (and others who pander to these people) is rising and it’s moving the GOP away from Reagan and towards these misanthropist paranoids.

Once upon a time Jimmy Carter was elected by evangelicals. Imagine evangelicals electing a democrat today. we can’t conceive of it.

118 austin_blue  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:29:26pm

Dammit, I’m such a ditz, today! That’s Marc Morial down there.

Here’s Sidney:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

119 Spivens  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:31:41pm

Got lucky on the open registration…nice! I’ve really enjoyed lurking about LGF the last few months, and am looking forward to contributing now and then.

120 Locker  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:32:27pm

re: #119 Spivens

Welcome to the jungle. We’ve got fun and games…

121 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:32:32pm

re: #119 Spivens

Got lucky on the open registration…nice! I’ve really enjoyed lurking about LGF the last few months, and am looking forward to contributing now and then.

Welcome!

122 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:33:55pm

re: #120 Locker

Welcome to the jungle. We’ve got fun and games…

*axl rose snake dance*

123 MandyManners  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:36:03pm

re: #120 Locker

Welcome to the jungle. We’ve got fun and games…

If you got the money honey, we got your disease.

124 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:36:55pm

re: #116 austin_blue

Oops, sorry. Here
[Link: societyessays.blogspot.com…]

From the article:

The old line, secretive Mardi Gras Krewes are generally seen as the apex of high society with great political and economic power. The first New Orleans “Krewe” (secret society engaging in Mardi Gras festivities) began with the Free Masonic-based Comus in the 1850’s.

OMG!11 THE MASONS RUN MARDI GRAS AND USE IT TO BRAINWASH THE MASSES!!1

/Alex Jones (mocking him is fun)

125 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:37:49pm

re: #123 MandyManners

If you got the money honey, we got your disease.

You can have anything you want, but you better not take it from me.

126 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:38:00pm

Now that we’re talking about G’n’R, I’ll just say for the record Chinese Democracy is a pretty damn good record. It doesn’t really sound like something that took a decade to write and record, but I love it. Buckethead’s guitars are all over it.

127 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:38:25pm

re: #126 WindUpBird

as I type the word “record” too many times *_*

128 MandyManners  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:39:37pm

re: #125 Dark_Falcon

You can have anything you want, but you better not take it from me.

I wanna’ hear you scream!

129 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:41:10pm

Holy shit, I never clicked on the Hutaree training video. Marian by the Sisters of Mercy is playing over it? A goth band? Pasty british guys with poofy hair and sunglasses who wrote an entire album dissing George Bush Sr? Seems an odd fit!

130 MandyManners  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:41:13pm

In the spring a young man’s fancy lightly turns to thoughts of weed whackers, leaf blowers and lawn mowers.

Why the hell can’t people just enjoy nature? Why must they insist on taming every freakin’ square inch?

131 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:41:36pm

Since we’re on the meme for Welcome to the Jungle, here’s the video:

132 MandyManners  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:41:40pm

Speaking of nature, I’m gonna’ go commune with it. bbl

133 keloyd  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:43:46pm

re: #117 WindUpBird

…Once upon a time Jimmy Carter was elected by evangelicals. Imagine evangelicals electing a democrat today. we can’t conceive of it.

Obama - the black Democrat with a name the BBC routinely mispronounces - carried the vote of doctors, the military*, a respectable 44% of Texas, and financial professionals. Don’t dismiss all this end-time talk too soon.

*McCain carried the officers; Obama carried the rest, so Obama carried the total, all of this I heard on NPR, so can’t cite, but it’s there somewhere.

134 Killgore Trout  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:44:46pm

re: #132 MandyManners

Speaking of nature, I’m gonna’ go commune with it. bbl

Enjoy. We have another miserable cold rainy day. I’m jealous.

135 Fortitudine  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:45:06pm

When I was stationed at Camp Lejeune, I occasionally saw a car in Jacksonville with a bumper sticker that said “I’m from North Carolina and I did NOT vote for Jesse Helms.” I wonder if I should have one made that says “I’m from Michigan and I’m not a murderous fruitcake.”

136 Lidane  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:46:06pm

re: #94 Dark_Falcon

It’s nobody’s business but Barack Obama’s how he defines himself racially.

Not only that, but it’s the height of stupidity to flame the guy over what boxes he checked on the census.

If he’d checked white, the nirther morons would cry that he’s denying his Kenyan father and his obvious black skin color. Because he checked black, the same imbeciles are whining that he’s denying his white mother. The guy simply couldn’t win, no matter what.

137 Locker  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:46:12pm

re: #135 Fortitudine

When I was stationed at Camp Lejeune, I occasionally saw a car in Jacksonville with a bumper sticker that said “I’m from North Carolina and I did NOT vote for Jesse Helms.” I wonder if I should have one made that says “I’m from Michigan and I’m not a murderous fruitcake.”

Mine would be longer and more complicated. Something like “I smoke weed, own a gun and I am NOT a Libertarian.”

138 Randall Gross  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:48:20pm

re: #134 Killgore Trout

Enjoy. We have another miserable cold rainy day. I’m jealous.

Spring Sprung in KC — we had a bigass storm yesterday but today it’s mid sixties, green grass — the branches are bare but if you squint at the distant hills you see a green haze from the leaves that are budding out. The dogs have been to the park, the car got gassed and washed, and now I’m considering getting the remnant of the dead leaves from last year up…. be more jealous…

139 Randall Gross  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:49:58pm
140 Escaped Hillbilly  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:53:37pm

re: #136 Lidane

“All the above”?

141 William Barnett-Lewis  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:54:43pm

re: #137 Locker

Heh, the one I want would say -

The Second Amendment - keeping Church and State separate since 1791.

William

142 austin_blue  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:55:27pm

re: #136 Lidane

Good band at The Green Mesquite on BSR tonight. Starts at seven. Free. Good Q, too.

143 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:56:03pm

Whatever else is true, it is emphatically not true that the ideas of Jesus of Nazareth were suitable to his time, but are no longer suitable to our time. Exactly how suitable they were to his time is perhaps suggested in the end of his story.
— G. K. Chesterton

144 Lidane  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:57:02pm

re: #142 austin_blue

Good band at The Green Mesquite on BSR tonight. Starts at seven. Free. Good Q, too.

Awesome. If I can swing it, I might just go. Haven’t had Green Mesquite in ages.

145 austin_blue  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:58:13pm

re: #139 Thanos

Yes we Cannabis?

Clever Boots!

146 The Sanity Inspector  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 12:59:17pm

re: #126 WindUpBird

Now that we’re talking about G’n’R, I’ll just say for the record Chinese Democracy is a pretty damn good record. It doesn’t really sound like something that took a decade to write and record, but I love it. Buckethead’s guitars are all over it.

BucketHead Vs Slash

147 Political Atheist  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:01:01pm

re: #146 The Sanity Inspector

When I heard Chinese democracy it struck me as ten year old music, rather than music that had been developed over ten years. I swear it sounded to me like they made the album and left it in the can for 9 or 10 years, then just released it.

148 Lidane  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:04:09pm

re: #141 wlewisiii

The Second Amendment - keeping Church and State separate since 1791.

I like that. Short, sweet, and to the point.

re: #140 Escaped Hillbilly

“All the above”?

Then the ODS crowd would accuse him of trying to muddle the issue so that no one would be offended. =P

149 Escaped Hillbilly  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:08:21pm

re: #139 Thanos
I frankly think the legalize pot people are full of crap. They spout a lot of psuedo science and denigrate anyone who disagrees with them on any point. The adults who should know better think the whole issue is “cute” and encourage it. This is of course how you win debates in America. They are in fact going to get their way. It is creeping across the US and gaining momentum.
Some facts:
Marijuana is not even close to the best treatment for ANY medical condition. It works for some. But is not the best for any.
Marijuana, and esp. its active ingredient, THC, destroys brain cells.
Marijuana in all forms, but esp the smoken form, contains cancer causing agents at a higher level than tobacco and burns at a higher temp, and is held in the lungs, all of which increase the dosage of toxins received by the user.
Marijuana alters mental state, causes mood lability, reduces higher reasoning, and shortens memory…even when used sporadically in small doses.
People are marijuana show poor motor coordination, decreased peripheral vision, poor light reactivity, and slower response time to both verbal and visual stimuli…DUI anybody?
Marijuana use is not cute. It is every bit as serious as alcohol use coupled with tobacco use. At a time when we are trying to improve overall health in the US, figure out how to pay for it, and discourage the intake of alcohol, drugs (legal and illegal), smoking, and high fat foods…why in God’s name are we trying to legalize yet another health risk?

150 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:09:04pm

re: #147 Rightwingconspirator

When I heard Chinese democracy it struck me as ten year old music, rather than music that had been developed over ten years. I swear it sounded to me like they made the album and left it in the can for 9 or 10 years, then just released it.

I agree. I like 10 year old music! But it’s totally true, it has that arena rock thing going on that’s a little past it’s sell-by date.

151 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:13:12pm

re: #149 Escaped Hillbilly

We want to legalize it because people like it, it makes them happy, it’s not as dangerous as alcohol, and because putting people in jail for smoking it is ludicrous. You can easily drink yourself to death in one sitting. You can’t smoke yourself to death. People are in jail for YEARS for possession in some sates. It’s abominable.

152 Bagua  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:13:57pm

re: #149 Escaped Hillbilly

Sorry but that is nonsense, propaganda with no scientific merit.

153 kj1313  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:16:14pm

Hello fellow lizards, another long time lurker & recent registrant. Thanks for opening the door Charles…

154 Political Atheist  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:16:42pm

re: #149 Escaped Hillbilly
To answer your last line/question-
Because prohibition failed. Failed with booze, and failed with cannabis. Legalization and regulation is a simple admission of that fact. We waste legal efforts and law enforcement resources on the least dangerous drug.

Your quote- “Every bit as serious as alcohol.” Which for adults is perfectly legal.

In a place and time where cigarettes and alcohol is legal, advertised and accepted at every adult social level cannabis is just an obvious victim of reefer madness propaganda. In the spirit of consenting adults it should be legal.

155 Bagua  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:18:31pm

re: #149 Escaped Hillbilly

[…]
Marijuana in all forms, but esp the smoken form, contains cancer causing agents at a higher level than tobacco and burns at a higher temp, and is held in the lungs, all of which increase the dosage of toxins received by the user.

Utterly false, tobacco is strongly associated with cancer, one of the biggest killers in fact. Marijuana has yet to be linked with cancer.

Marijuana use is not cute. It is every bit as serious as alcohol use coupled with tobacco use. At a time when we are trying to improve overall health in the US, figure out how to pay for it, and discourage the intake of alcohol, drugs (legal and illegal), smoking, and high fat foods…why in God’s name are we trying to legalize yet another health risk?

Completely false, alcohol and tobacco are directly linked with preventable deaths on a massive scale in the US. Marijuana has not been directly linked with any deaths.

156 Velvet Elvis  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:18:57pm

re: #149 Escaped Hillbilly

It doesn’t kill brain cells. It’s not consumed at near the rate of tobacco so damage it my cause vs tobacco is much less. I could go on but a lot of your facts are wrong.

Pot makes me paranoid so I don’t really have a dog in the race. I just don’t like people saying wrong shit.

The war on drugs has been a miserable failure. Let’s try something else.

157 Escaped Hillbilly  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:23:07pm

re: #151 WindUpBird

We can agree the jail sentences are disproportional to the crime. Absolutely. And this is what happens when we legislate from emotion rather than common sense. But legalizing because it makes people happy? With what rules? What caviats? Can you smoke it when you should be taking care of your kids? driving? working? at or near schools? Who should be allowed to buy it? How much? Where do you obtain it? Having legalized it for some, how do you keep others from getting it? WHO PAYS for the increase in medical care? So we legalize it, sending a message to all kids that it’s ok and something to enjoy just as soon as they can, like cigarettes and alcohol. And they will. Then what? Yes marijuana does kill. It just does so slowly…unless the smoker happens to be behind the wheel of a car or heavy equipment or plane or train or boat.
Here on this sight we can discuss it. We will try to find legitimate research to back up our assertions and not go over the top. But that is not how such things are done in our present political climate. Right now the left and the liberals are in power. They are no more likely to rein themselves in than the conservative right.

158 Lidane  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:24:37pm

re: #156 Conservative Moonbat

The war on drugs has been a miserable failure. Let’s try something else.

Agreed. The only thing the war on drugs has given us is a very REAL war among the various cartels, who are far more heavily armed than law enforcement, and who are not afraid to kill anyone who stands in their way.

We absolutely need some sort of new approach. What we’re doing now isn’t working.

159 Bagua  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:25:07pm

re: #157 Escaped Hillbilly

Again, that is nonsense. All bold does nothing to change that. Cite some research that supports your assertions. You will find that difficult as there isn’t any.

160 swamprat  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:25:44pm

re: #156 Conservative Moonbat

re: #149 Escaped Hillbilly


OK. BS arguments aside, cannabis funds a number of unsavory countries, and some who should simply know better. Pot, if legal, should be domestically grown, produced, and consumed. If legalized, I would strongly support substantial tariffs and restrictions.

Drill here, drill now!

Grow here, burn here!

161 Stan the Demanded Plan  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:27:16pm

re: #160 swamprat

re: #149 Escaped Hillbilly

OK. BS arguments aside, cannabis funds a number of unsavory countries, and some who should simply know better. Pot, if legal, should be domestically grown, produced, and consumed. If legalized, I would strongly support substantial tariffs and restrictions.

Drill here, drill now!

Grow here, burn here!

The best weed is local weed.

162 Bagua  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:31:00pm
163 Bagua  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:31:21pm

re: #162 Bagua

Note that is Tobacco smoking

164 Escaped Hillbilly  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:32:18pm

re: #154 Rightwingconspirator

To answer your last line/question-
Because prohibition failed. Failed with booze, and failed with cannabis. Legalization and regulation is a simple admission of that fact. We waste legal efforts and law enforcement resources on the least dangerous drug.

Your quote- “Every bit as serious as alcohol.” Which for adults is perfectly legal.

In a place and time where cigarettes and alcohol is legal, advertised and accepted at every adult social level cannabis is just an obvious victim of reefer madness propaganda. In the spirit of consenting adults it should be legal.

Please for goodnes sake leave this hackneyed 1950s garbage out. It does not add weight to your argument. No one here thinks that movie is anything but a campy romp through paranoia land.
Prohibition…that’s a book of an argument. I can’t possibly address it completely here. Let me just say three things 1) Two wrongs don’t make a right. I don’t care that we made 2 mistakes. Lets not make a 3rd. 2) Alcohol has been an integral part of our history for all of recorded human history and probably before. Not so marijuana. Nor is marijuana such an entwined part of our social structure now. There is no reason to make it one. 3) Prohibition was a half assed after the fact attempt to stop something already accepted in our society which was never supported by even a slight majority to include many in law enforcement and the President himself. There is not really a comparison between Prohibition againt alcohol at that time and the existing laws against marijuana possession now. If prohibiting things didn’t work, we wouldn’t prohibit anything. We do. It works most of the time and reduces the number of violators to a number which can be dealt with. Take for instance, theft. It is prohibited. People do it, but not many. And there are legal options to deal with it. It can be controlled to a tolerable level in part due to the prohibition. The prohibition itself doesn’t stop you, the consequences for violating do.

165 swamprat  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:34:27pm

re: #157 Escaped Hillbilly

Pot was a boogie-man, and the “facts” about it are largely manufactured. Todays’ pot issues are directly analogous to the Prohibition of alcohol.
Realistically, pot is too much of a liability to use, which is what is intended. Yet I still see minimum wage everyday joes wasting their (very) hard-earned cash on a product that is not worth the trouble or expense. I would like to see the whole thing discarded, but that is not a real world option. Show me studies from countries where it is legal that support your figures. Or don’t. If all the weed in the world disappeared into a great cosmic bong, it would not concern me one whit.

166 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:35:01pm

re: #164 Escaped Hillbilly

I agree. Intoxicants (especially one’s which toxins in them) are not the sort of things to legalize.

168 Escaped Hillbilly  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:36:34pm

re: #159 Bagua

Are you serious? So driving under the influence of marijuana doesn’t kill? You find your own dang articles. I have done so. Try FBI statistics. Try American Highway Safety Admin statistics. Try the American Cancer Society. Try JAMA, the Lancet, or even the AA/NA web source.

169 Bagua  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:38:55pm

re: #168 Escaped Hillbilly

Try? Go ahead, show me the numbers. They don’t exist. I am talking facts here, if you have something factual to present I am happy to consider it.

170 swamprat  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:39:32pm

re: #168 Escaped Hillbilly

Great. Now all you have to do is prove that if they weren’t able to get pot, they would not be driving drunk instead. Or that the pot would incapacitate them worse than booze.

Good luck.

171 Locker  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:42:16pm

re: #149 Escaped Hillbilly

I frankly think the legalize pot people are full of crap. They spout a lot of psuedo science and denigrate anyone who disagrees with them on any point. The adults who should know better think the whole issue is “cute” and encourage it. This is of course how you win debates in America. They are in fact going to get their way. It is creeping across the US and gaining momentum.
Some facts:
Marijuana is not even close to the best treatment for ANY medical condition. It works for some. But is not the best for any.
Marijuana, and esp. its active ingredient, THC, destroys brain cells.
Marijuana in all forms, but esp the smoken form, contains cancer causing agents at a higher level than tobacco and burns at a higher temp, and is held in the lungs, all of which increase the dosage of toxins received by the user.
Marijuana alters mental state, causes mood lability, reduces higher reasoning, and shortens memory…even when used sporadically in small doses.
People are marijuana show poor motor coordination, decreased peripheral vision, poor light reactivity, and slower response time to both verbal and visual stimuli…DUI anybody?
Marijuana use is not cute. It is every bit as serious as alcohol use coupled with tobacco use. At a time when we are trying to improve overall health in the US, figure out how to pay for it, and discourage the intake of alcohol, drugs (legal and illegal), smoking, and high fat foods…why in God’s name are we trying to legalize yet another health risk?

It’s amazing how sure you are about things that no one is sure about. How you make judgments about the effects of Marijuana on millions of people who aren’t you and that you don’t even know.

This is just a modern version of refer madness hysteria.

172 swamprat  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:42:34pm

re: #164 Escaped Hillbilly


Uh, pot was not illegal untill the 30’s or so right?
Where is the carnage from debilsmoke prior to its prohibition?

173 Bagua  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:42:55pm

Also, driving under the influence is not a direct cause and highly debatable. Driving under the influence of a cell phone has been more conclusively linked to accidents than cannabis ever has. Even if one could show a link, it is a fraction of the deaths directly and conclusively linked to tobacco and alcohol.

I’m sorry but you are badly misinformed on this issue.

174 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:45:00pm

re: #138 Thanos

Yes! An Easter miracle, my husband is cleaning the garage.

I have been craving Oklahoma Joe’s BBQ:[Link: www.oklahomajoesbbq.com…]

175 Locker  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:45:10pm

re: #173 Bagua

Also, driving under the influence is not a direct cause and highly debatable. Driving under the influence of a cell phone has been more conclusively linked to accidents than cannabis ever has. Even if one could show a link, it is a fraction of the deaths directly and conclusively linked to tobacco and alcohol.

I’m sorry but you are badly misinformed on this issue.

I completely agree without reservation.

176 Bagua  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:46:20pm

re: #172 swamprat

Uh, pot was not illegal untill the 30’s or so right?
Where is the carnage from debilsmoke prior to its prohibition?

There are Zero deaths associated with marijuana use.

177 Escaped Hillbilly  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:46:54pm

Look, I know people don’t die from marijuana overdose. People who want to argue that it is harmless often intentionally or unintentionally confuse overdose deaths with all death caused or related to marijuana use. There are many well documented, repeated, verifiable, studies into the deleterious effects of marijuana and its active ingredients. Legimate research and unbiased facts are very hard to find on the web because there is a plethora of official sounding websights all which are actually political groups pushing their agenda, pro and con. Some of them sound like legit or even official governement sights. But, if you enter the name of known medical journals and government agencies, you can find them. This one is a somewhat balanced article. NIDA

Studies show that approximately 6 to 11 percent of fatal accident victims test positive for THC.
178 swamprat  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:47:16pm

re: #168 Escaped Hillbilly

Don’t get me wrong. There is nothing wrong with disliking weed, or thinking that it is bad.

But that stoner who wiped out a busload of nuns, could just as easily been doing jackdaniels, reds, meth, or nutmeg.

179 swamprat  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:49:06pm

re: #177 Escaped Hillbilly

Those tests find use for the last 30 to 60 days.
You’ve been reading propaganda.

180 Escaped Hillbilly  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:49:30pm

re: #170 swamprat
No I don’t have to prove that. That’s like saying I would have to prove the terrorist wouldn’t be torturing bunnies if they were prevented from killing people. Why? Stop one bad behavior. If I could stop drunk driving, believe it, I would. My nephew died a lingering death from a drunken driver. How would it be better drunk and stoned? OR just stoned?

181 Locker  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:51:49pm

re: #180 Escaped Hillbilly

No I don’t have to prove that. That’s like saying I would have to prove the terrorist wouldn’t be torturing bunnies if they were prevented from killing people. Why? Stop one bad behavior. If I could stop drunk driving, believe it, I would. My nephew died a lingering death from a drunken driver. How would it be better drunk and stoned? OR just stoned?

So we should ban guns too right? And base jumping and driving all together cause it’s dangerous. And no way we should allow medicine for any reason as it may cause some sort of 4th degree removed harm. There is no drug that makes you drive.

182 swamprat  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:52:43pm

re: #180 Escaped Hillbilly

Nobody denies you your feelings. And your comment about bunnies is an excellent point.

183 Escaped Hillbilly  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:53:55pm

re: #179 swamprat

What tests? Look, I have been reading medical journals on this subject for 17 years. You wanted a reference so I tried to give you a nice balanced one. There are many. Which I mentioned already. FBI, American Highways Safety, etc.

184 Bagua  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:54:04pm

re: #177 Escaped Hillbilly

You are moving the goal posts, you were talking about direct deaths, and comparing marijuana use to tobacco and alcohol as a health risk.

Now you are shifting to accidental deaths through driving impairment, no one is advocating legalising driving while impaired. Regardless, the studies do not prove the marijuana is a primary cause of these accidents, and even if it was, we are talking about a couple of thousand of deaths, as opposed to the hundreds of thousands directly linked to tobacco and alcohol.

185 Escaped Hillbilly  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 1:57:53pm

re: #181 Locker
What the hell are you talking about? YOU said I have to prove something about what others would do if they weren’t doing one drug. Now you are saying I am trying to illegalize anything not good for you. No, I’m not. Can you give one good reason to legalize a substance which is already illegal and which is not good for you? The only one which I agree with so far given is…people like it and it makes them feel good. Well, that’s a pro. What else have you got? Cause the cons run to several pages.

186 Bagua  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:01:09pm

re: #183 Escaped Hillbilly

What tests? Look, I have been reading medical journals on this subject for 17 years. You wanted a reference so I tried to give you a nice balanced one. There are many. Which I mentioned already. FBI, American Highways Safety, etc.

So present one, you haven’t and they do not exist.

The one link you gave was not a medical journal, it did not directly associate marijuana with deaths. Even the association with accidental deaths is speculative at this point and an entirely separate issue as no one advocates legalising driving while impaired.

187 swamprat  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:02:20pm

re: #183 Escaped Hillbilly

What tests? Look, I have been reading medical journals on this subject for 17 years. You wanted a reference so I tried to give you a nice balanced one. There are many. Which I mentioned already. FBI, American Highways Safety, etc.

You think maybe you have a greater issue about this? I am seeing what you are thinking; Legalization would lead to greater use, and therefore greater abuse. The question on the table is ; would that abuse be greater, cumulatively, than that which we experience now/percentage-wise? /In terms of total dangerous intoxication use from alcohol and/or cannibus?
And you think, why should we even have to find out?

I have no idea.

188 Escaped Hillbilly  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:03:18pm

re: #184 Bagua

You are moving the goal posts, you were talking about direct deaths, and comparing marijuana use to tobacco and alcohol as a health risk.

Now you are shifting to accidental deaths through driving impairment, no one is advocating legalising driving while impaired. Regardless, the studies do not prove the marijuana is a primary cause of these accidents, and even if it was, we are talking about a couple of thousand of deaths, as opposed to the hundreds of thousands directly linked to tobacco and alcohol.

NO, my very first post mentioned this. YOU assumed I meant overdose deaths. As a drug and alcohol counselor, I know the difference. I do not consider the death in several years of cancer, or the death of a man who can’t control the cherry picker he is operating, acceptable. By the way, it is impossible to tell the actual number of deaths attributable to marijuana seeing as how people don’t report using it most of the time and blood tests are usually not done unless some other (legal usually) reason exists. How many years did we wait to learn the health effects of tobacco? And that was even as several researchers were doing little else and receiving major grants and federal research funds to study cancer and emphysema.

189 Cheechako  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:03:40pm

re: #185 Escaped Hillbilly


Just want to let you know I agree with you 100%.
I’ve seen first hand just what marijuana can do to bright, smart, and outgoing individuals. Pot can really destroy people.

190 Escaped Hillbilly  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:05:09pm

re: #186 Bagua

My point, which you seem to be side stepping, is that no one advocating legalizing it, has given one plan that would prevent it. Oh, and there’s no convenient “blow in this tube” test that law enforcement could use to test for it. So what is the freaking plan? Just legalize it and deal with it later?

191 Bagua  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:06:27pm

re: #186 Bagua

Note that the drugabuse.gov you linked to says:

Studies show that approximately 6 to 11 percent of fatal accident victims test positive for THC. In many of these cases, alcohol is detected as well

The influence of marijuana alone is not proven when alcohol, a known cause of automobile accidents, is also present.

And again, even if it could be proven, which it has not, it is around 2,000 deaths, from something no-one advocates legalising, whereas with tobacco and alcohol we are talking about over 500,000 deaths from legal substances which is proven.

192 SpaceJesus  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:10:30pm

spaceship jesus isn’t letting any of these crazy fucks on board

193 Bagua  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:12:07pm

re: #190 Escaped Hillbilly

You said:

Marijuana in all forms, but esp the smoken form, contains cancer causing agents at a higher level than tobacco and burns at a higher temp, and is held in the lungs, all of which increase the dosage of toxins received by the user.

Insinuating marijuana was worse than tobacco as a direct cause of cancer. This is nonsense and completely unsupported by the literature. Simply propaganda.

194 MisterCookie  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:13:35pm

I recall being explicitly told back in Confirmation school that Revelations wasn’t to be taken seriously, as it was written long after the Gospel and was a highly politicized addition to the Bible.

195 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:20:18pm

re: #190 Escaped Hillbilly

My point, which you seem to be side stepping, is that no one advocating legalizing it, has given one plan that would prevent it. Oh, and there’s no convenient “blow in this tube” test that law enforcement could use to test for it. So what is the freaking plan? Just legalize it and deal with it later?

There’s always the standard roadside sobriety test, which one can fail now even if they’re below the legal alcohol limit, or blow zeroes but still behave intoxicated. You also know that you are dishonestly attributing a large number of accidents where the driver was drunk and high as being due to the pot use, a specious argument at best.

196 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:29:38pm

re: #157 Escaped Hillbilly

We can agree the jail sentences are disproportional to the crime. Absolutely. And this is what happens when we legislate from emotion rather than common sense. But legalizing because it makes people happy? With what rules? What caviats? Can you smoke it when you should be taking care of your kids? driving? working? at or near schools? Who should be allowed to buy it? How much? Where do you obtain it? Having legalized it for some, how do you keep others from getting it? WHO PAYS for the increase in medical care? So we legalize it, sending a message to all kids that it’s ok and something to enjoy just as soon as they can, like cigarettes and alcohol. And they will. Then what? Yes marijuana does kill. It just does so slowly…unless the smoker happens to be behind the wheel of a car or heavy equipment or plane or train or boat.
Here on this sight we can discuss it. We will try to find legitimate research to back up our assertions and not go over the top. But that is not how such things are done in our present political climate. Right now the left and the liberals are in power. They are no more likely to rein themselves in than the conservative right.

Marijuana kills like rich foods kill, dude. And I’m not going to swear off steak and tiramisu.

And if you’re worried about driving while impaired,we already have an epidemic of distracted driving in the form of cell phones, ipods, and the like. This is real nanny state stuff you’re laying on me. :/

197 windsagio  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:30:57pm

re: #196 WindUpBird

Tell me you didn’t just compare driving on a cell phone to driving high :p

At least compare it to driving drunk >>

198 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:31:49pm

re: #192 SpaceJesus

spaceship jesus isn’t letting any of these crazy fucks on board


“No admittance. Now what ya wanna do, is go back out the way you came, take a left at the first hallway, then walk down those stairs, hang a right, and fry in the Hades.”

199 Bagua  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:33:12pm

re: #196 WindUpBird

Marijuana kills like rich foods kill, dude. And I’m not going to swear off steak and tiramisu.

And if you’re worried about driving while impaired,we already have an epidemic of distracted driving in the form of cell phones, ipods, and the like. This is real nanny state stuff you’re laying on me. :/

Sorry to quibble, but heart disease, diabetes, and other causes of death with a dietary link are major killers, in the hundreds of thousands. The link to marijuana stands at zero.

200 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:33:20pm

re: #197 windsagio

Tell me you didn’t just compare driving on a cell phone to driving high :p

At least compare it to driving drunk >>

I’m thinking more of texting and fucking around with the phone’s features than straight cell phone headsets. The talking isn’t the problem, it’s look up then down then up then down then fiddling through menus and such. I’d bet texting while driving makes you a worse driver than driving stoned :D

(I’m totally just talking out my ass here)

201 windsagio  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:34:05pm

re: #200 WindUpBird

Fair enough :p

202 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:34:06pm

Kinda sad that there are literally millions of people within this country who now wish to die, they want to leave this world and go immediately to heaven with it’s “streets paved of gold.”

I just want to point out that golden streets would really suck, they would be extremely slick and slippery. You would really think that an “all knowing God” could do better for his paving choice.

///

203 Escaped Hillbilly  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:34:16pm

I thought you understood that NIDA was only one example of many legitimate sources I told you of.

The National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) is part of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) , a component of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services

They act as a clearinghouse for treatment providers. They have a number of publications for the lay public as well at providers and fund studies in a variety of fields.
Journal articles are not as easy to find and link too. It takes a lot of time to find them. I am assuming, since you read that one, that you are actually interested so here’s a start. OpthamologyJAMA

204 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:35:07pm

re: #199 Bagua

Sorry to quibble, but heart disease, diabetes, and other causes of death with a dietary link are major killers, in the hundreds of thousands. The link to marijuana stands at zero.

You’re right :) That was more me being snarky than anything.

205 windsagio  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:35:36pm

re: #203 Escaped Hillbilly

Who is this ‘you’ you’re addressing? Do you mean me?

206 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:36:03pm

re: #201 windsagio

Fair enough :p

Oh yeah, and I totally just met John Palencar at the con, and talked to him for ten minutes. Art geek HEAVEN.

207 windsagio  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:36:40pm

re: #206 WindUpBird

That is pretty cool :D

208 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:36:56pm

re: #202 ausador

Kinda sad that there are literally millions of people within this country who now wish to die, they want to leave this world and go immediately to heaven with it’s “streets paved of gold.”

I just want to point out that golden streets would really suck, they would be extremely slick and slippery. You would really think that an “all knowing God” could do better for his paving choice.

///

No traction at all on gold! So your car better have all wheel drive :D

209 Bagua  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:37:10pm

re: #200 WindUpBird


Harvard researchers estimate about one in 20 U.S. traffic accidents involve a driver talking on a cell phone, but say laws banning cellular phone use while driving would cost society about as much as it would save.

“We calculate that around 2,600 people die each year as a result of this use of the technology,” said researcher Joshua Cohen of the Harvard Center for Risk Analysis. Another 330,000 are believed injured.

CBS

Cell phone impairment is clearly much higher than marijuana impairment, which has yet to be established.

210 windsagio  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:37:38pm

re: #208 WindUpBird

I was more thinking “What’ll those streets do for their gold investments?”


BUY GOLD NOW!

211 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:37:59pm

re: #209 Bagua

CBS

Cell phone impairment is clearly much higher than marijuana impairment, which has yet to be established.

One in twenty! Damn!

212 Escaped Hillbilly  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:38:11pm

re: #200 WindUpBird
You might be right. I don’t do either. I’ve heard some recent accidents caused by texting and/or talking on the phone. My son bought be one of those handsfree ear piece thingies and the sound comes through the radio. Scared the pee out of me the first time it rang. Probably wasn’t too safe. I am not the most techno savy person out there.

213 windsagio  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:39:11pm

re: #209 Bagua

In fairness, there’s very little actual research on marijuana with which to try to make conclusions.

The lack of proof of a link isn’t evidence that there isn’t a link, at least in this case.

I’m all for legal pot and all that, but lets not start sounding like High Times editorials ;)

214 Escaped Hillbilly  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:39:57pm

re: #205 windsagio
OOps, no. I had typed this incredibly long post with all these links. Then I got disconnected and had to resign on and…oops…it had posted! It was a reply to someone up thread who had asked for references re the marijuana thing. Sorry.

215 windsagio  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:40:43pm

re: #211 WindUpBird

reading the article, its basicly what you said. Looking down and reaching for the damn thing, or putting in numbers, etc.

As much as they annoy me, the ‘no handhelds at the wheel’ laws are probably a good idea.

216 windsagio  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:41:35pm

re: #214 Escaped Hillbilly

Haha no problem, I was being bitchy anwyays.

I haaaaaate unadressed posts that are actually meant for a specific person.

217 Bagua  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:42:45pm

re: #203 Escaped Hillbilly

I thought you understood that NIDA was only one example of many legitimate sources I told you of.

They act as a clearinghouse for treatment providers. They have a number of publications for the lay public as well at providers and fund studies in a variety of fields.
Journal articles are not as easy to find and link too. It takes a lot of time to find them. I am assuming, since you read that one, that you are actually interested so here’s a start. OpthamologyJAMA

You linked to a paper discussing the use of Marijuana for Glaucoma and an index of Jama papers. That is like linking to Google and says go look something up. If you can support your contentions then please link to the article or journal which supports them. You can not.

Also, even the NIDA did not support your contentions which I challenged.

218 SpaceJesus  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:47:55pm

this guy hits homeschooling right on the head. for the majority of its followers, it is at its heart, a fundamentalist right-wing xenophobic theocratic brainwashing mechanism.

219 windsagio  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:49:21pm

re: #218 SpaceJesus

NO!

They have a civil right to abuse their children by denying them real education!

220 Bagua  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:51:33pm
221 Bagua  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:55:12pm

re: #213 windsagio

In fairness, there’s very little actual research on marijuana with which to try to make conclusions.

The lack of proof of a link isn’t evidence that there isn’t a link, at least in this case.

I’m all for legal pot and all that, but lets not start sounding like High Times editorials ;)

There is also an absence of research on potatoes as a cause of cancer, likewise marshmallows. The absence of the research is not meaningful.

And feel free to insult me by colouring my scientifically accurate statements as a “High Times editorial”, but do you have anything of substance to say?

222 SpaceJesus  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:57:23pm

dr dre says you should smoke weed every day, and he’s a doctor

223 windsagio  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 2:58:01pm

re: #221 Bagua

Dude, no need to freak.

Policywise, we probably 100% agree per Marijuana.

That being said hyperbole or iffy statements don’t help your cause at all.

And the absence of research is totally meaningful. Specifically, it means that we don’t know.

What you’re saying, in essence, is that the absence of research means that we positively know there ISN’T a link, and that simply isn’t true.

224 palomino  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 3:02:08pm

Is it sacrilegious to say that End Times theology is just nihilism hiding behind the Bible?

225 Bagua  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 3:05:43pm

re: #223 windsagio

Dude, no need to freak.

Policywise, we probably 100% agree per Marijuana.

That being said hyperbole or iffy statements don’t help your cause at all.

And the absence of research is totally meaningful. Specifically, it means that we don’t know.

What you’re saying, in essence, is that the absence of research means that we positively know there ISN’T a link, and that simply isn’t true.

What of my statements is “hyperbole or iffy statements”? I made factual statements and cited my sources. Please be specific or stop ankle biting.

There has been a great deal of research on marijuana, and many of the major killers are fairly understood. Marijuana is not one of them, period, nor is it suspected as such.

That does not “prove” that no minor risks will be proven, but it is absurd to image that anything on the level of Tobacco and Alcohol will be discovered based upon what is known now. Why? Because there is no major reservoir of unknown deaths out there.

226 windsagio  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 3:12:24pm

re: #225 Bagua

I reread all your posts, and all of your links fall into the classic error of showing how other things are deadly.

But, like with AGW or Haiti, you’re totally incapable of discussing things without going into a rage-seizure and throwing insults.

Therefore, I’m dissapointed and out. Have fun stewing in your own hate.

227 Escaped Hillbilly  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 3:13:49pm

re: #217 Bagua

Oh geez. I had to share this. While trying to get the freaking links to work, I saw a study listed on the NHTSA search page and clicked on it. They are testing field urine drug tests. Now I realize I am probably thinking about it all wrong, but could not get over the image of some cop on the side of the road asking for a sample!

228 Bagua  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 3:24:49pm

re: #226 windsagio

I reread all your posts, and all of your links fall into the classic error of showing how other things are deadly.

But, like with AGW or Haiti, you’re totally incapable of discussing things without going into a rage-seizure and throwing insults.

Therefore, I’m dissapointed and out. Have fun stewing in your own hate.

What are you talking about? I’m discussing something with Escaped Hillbilly which you are jumping into with random observations. The discussion was exactly the comparison between marijuana and Tobacco and Alcohol as causes of death. You are making some other point which is not clear.

As far as hate, no I don’t hate you, what are you on about? If you have something of substance to say, say it. Otherwise I observe you are just trying to be annoying, as usual.

229 Bagua  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 3:29:33pm

re: #227 Escaped Hillbilly

Oh geez. I had to share this. While trying to get the freaking links to work, I saw a study listed on the NHTSA search page and clicked on it. They are testing field urine drug tests. Now I realize I am probably thinking about it all wrong, but could not get over the image of some cop on the side of the road asking for a sample!

It does get ridiculous. But traffic safety is a big issue and we need to decide, as a society, what sort of testing is permitted our civil servants, the police.

There is a whole list of substances, legal, prescription and illegal which can cause impairment. Many medications are on that list and may require a blood test to determine.

230 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 3:38:54pm

re: #226 windsagio

I reread all your posts, and all of your links fall into the classic error of showing how other things are deadly.

But, like with AGW or Haiti, you’re totally incapable of discussing things without going into a rage-seizure and throwing insults.

Therefore, I’m dissapointed and out. Have fun stewing in your own hate.

He can so rarely find LVQ here anymore to get into an insult trading argument with lately. I suppose that he needs to find a new partner to completely take over threads and simply curse and abuse each other verbally for post after post after post.

Even when everyone else is telling him and whoever he is in theory argueing with to STFU (but in nicer terms) and to stop hijacking the thread he never will stop. He feels he hasn’t made his point until he has worn the other side and everyone else reading the thread into complete exhaustion with the B.S. which he interprets as submission to his point.

Welcome to Bagua’s world…

231 Cato the Elder  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 3:46:45pm

re: #35 Spare O’Lake

Nothing DEM or GOP about them.
They are radical extremist terrorist idealogues.

Right.

Except the one side has guns and organization and plans (see “Mein Kampf”) and the others have no clue at all.

No difference at all.

None.

232 Cato the Elder  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 3:50:34pm

re: #99 Thanos

To continue the theme… “Oh Frabjous Day!”

Callloo! Callay! He chortled in his joy.

233 dr. luba  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 4:05:35pm

re: #102 The Sanity Inspector

…???…When did Michigan and Idaho move to the South?

The South moved to Michigan. I blame Henry Ford.

234 dr. luba  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 4:11:37pm

re: #157 Escaped Hillbilly

But legalizing because it makes people happy?

What’s wrong with happiness?

235 prairiefire  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 4:12:07pm

re: #229 Bagua

The “blood test” part of it starts to give me the civil liberties heebie jeebies.

236 Liet_Kynes  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 5:03:04pm

“When religion and politics ride in the same cart, the whirlwind is sure to follow” —Reverend Mother Ramallo from Frank Herbert’s Dune

237 Obdicut  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 5:37:20pm

re: #223 windsagio

I don’t cut Bagua one bit of slack on any occasion.

He’s perfectly right here.

He may still be stylistically rough, but he’s right; we already do have a lot of data on marijuana, from abroad if nowhere else, and we have had federal studies into marijuana for decades with actual observed use, and lots of anonymous use profiling.

There is no large pool of deaths that marijuana use could be linked to. We might possibly find that the cancer-promoting agents in marijuana are higher than we think, but we know simply from how much is used that it’ll never approach cigarettes.

Like I said: I’m the first to nail Bagua when he, as he often is, incorrect. But in this case he’s mostly right. At the worst, we would find pot promotes cancer slightly more than we think it does now.

238 Olsonist  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 5:52:59pm

Costs of Keeping Marijuana Illegal

budgetary - enforcement and imprisonment costs
economic - forcing buying+selling to be underground and untaxed
societal - damage to individuals by imprisonment for a victimless crime
illegality makes marijuana more likely to be a gateway drug
criminal - funds some illegal enterprise

Benefits of Keeping Marijuana Illegal

prison industry employment

Costs of Legalizing Marijuana

much much less than alcohol and tobacco

Benefits of Legalizing Marijuana

aside from reversal of the above costs,
budgetary - improves tax base
economic - legitimizing makes for more economic activity
lowers price
239 Querent  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 7:39:31pm

re: #62 Ojoe

“Family Radio,” out of Oakland California, IIRC, has been predicting that the rapture will occur at the end of May, 2012.

I will try to ge a link.

Just in time for Memorial Day!

240 Ojoe  Sat, Apr 3, 2010 10:25:10pm

re: #239 Querent

Couldn’t they at least wait until after Labor Day?

They are going to miss summer and all the BBQs et catra.

241 ClaudeMonet  Sun, Apr 4, 2010 3:30:08am

re: #77 Killgore Trout

Yeah, Glenn Reynolds and Michelle Malkin were making a big deal out of that too. During the Bush years many of the anti-government nuts, Paulians, etc, gravitated to the Dems. Although people like Beck are recent converts they regard many Republicans (Lincoln, Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Bush) as part of the global conspiracy to destroy the United States.

Woodrow Wilson was a Republican? I’ll bet that would have been news to Teddy Roosevelt and William Howard Taft, among others.

BTW, I’m another newbie here. I’ve been reading some of the threads for a few months and finally managed to be around when registration was open. I admire the diversity of opinion here, and find it much more civil in the disagreements than at least 90% of the discussion sites I’ve visited. Plus you make lots of references to obscure things that I actually get.

Now I’ll shut up and let my betters do the talking.

242 ClaudeMonet  Sun, Apr 4, 2010 3:43:30am

re: #202 ausador

Kinda sad that there are literally millions of people within this country who now wish to die, they want to leave this world and go immediately to heaven with it’s “streets paved of gold.”

I just want to point out that golden streets would really suck, they would be extremely slick and slippery. You would really think that an “all knowing God” could do better for his paving choice.

///

They’d also be as soft as fresh tar. 24K gold is wonderful stuff, but not for anything that has to stand up to use.

243 Sacred Plants  Sun, Apr 4, 2010 9:17:47am

re: #164 Escaped Hillbilly

2) Alcohol has been an integral part of our history for all of recorded human history and probably before. Not so marijuana. Nor is marijuana such an entwined part of our social structure now. There is no reason to make it one.

It sucks to be a bigot, doesn´t it?

244 tigger2005  Sun, Apr 4, 2010 10:01:48am

Good article, except for this:

I say imagined, because the born-agains had one of their very own, George W. Bush, in the White House for eight long, ruinous years

Bush certainly pandered to the Religious Right on a number of issues, but I never got any sense that he personally and wholeheartedly embraced their philosophy and agenda. And what’s Schaeffer’s criteria for determining that a Presidency was “ruinous?”

It just bothers me when people I otherwise agree with can’t say anything without slipping in a gratuitous dig at George W. Bush.


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