Pope Benedict and the Tucson Abuse Cases

Religion • Views: 2,433

Here are still more cases in which the Catholic Church allegedly refused to take action against priests who were molesting children, even after being warned repeatedly about what these monsters were doing.

The abuse cases of two priests in Arizona have cast further doubt on the Catholic church’s insistence that Pope Benedict XVI played no role in shielding pedophiles before he became pope.

Documents reviewed by The Associated Press show that as a Vatican cardinal, the future pope took over the abuse case of the Rev. Michael Teta of Tucson, Ariz., then let it languish at the Vatican for years despite repeated pleas from the bishop for the man to be removed from the priesthood.

In another Tucson case, that of Msgr. Robert Trupia, the bishop wrote to then-Cardinal Ratzinger, who would become pope in 2005. Bishop Manuel Moreno called Trupia “a major risk factor to the children, adolescents and adults that he many have contact with.” There is no indication in the case files that Ratzinger responded.

The details of the two cases come as other allegations emerge that Benedict — as a Vatican cardinal — was part of a culture of cover-up and confidentiality.

“There’s no doubt that Ratzinger delayed the defrocking process of dangerous priests who were deemed ‘satanic’ by their own bishop,” Lynne Cadigan, an attorney who represented two of Teta’s victims, said Friday.

The Rev. Federico Lombardi, a Vatican spokesman, called the accusations “absolutely groundless” and said the facts were being misrepresented.

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118 comments
1 windsagio  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:00:31pm

Man, I almost wish it were demons amongst the news organization.

Even as a non-catholic, these stories are freakin' hard to take day in and day out.

2 Locker  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:07:13pm

None of these abuse stories are true and no one was harmed in the making of today's Catholics. The above article and all similar charges are just idle gossip.

3 HypnoToad  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:09:05pm

You hear the phrase that "The coverup is worse than the crime". In this case, I don't know which is worse. I think that the Vatican realizes that this will eventually end badly for them. Too much is coming out too fast for them to control.

4 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:12:41pm

It's a good thing his job isn't a popeularity contest or else he'd be toast.

5 theheat  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:12:41pm
The details of the two cases come as other allegations emerge that Benedict — as a Vatican cardinal — was part of a culture of cover-up and confidentiality.

Imagine my surprise. Not.

The uppermost tier of the Catholic church is what Bernie Maddoff was to the investment world. In the end, lots of "little people" get fucked. Literally. The only asses they care about saving are their own, and they'll lie like rugs to keep their assorted power positions and the money flowing. They're as far removed from garden variety Catholics, they may as well be a different breed altogether.

They aren't worthy of jack shit, let alone the unconditional adoration.

6 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:14:41pm

re: #3 HypnoToad

You hear the phrase that "The coverup is worse than the crime". In this case, I don't know which is worse. I think that the Vatican realizes that this will eventually end badly for them. Too much is coming out too fast for them to control.

In this case, many of these crimes continued specifically because the coverup allowed them to.

The Vatican has no clue that this has ended badly for many many children; forget how it ends for the Vatican, it deserves whatever happens.

7 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:14:42pm

I'm really wondering how much worse this will get. At first, it was portrayed as just an American problem. Now it has spread to Europe and the Third World and is encroaching on the papacy itself. If Benedict is forced to resign over this, it will be the worst crisis for Catholicism since the Reformation, possibly the worst ever. In today's cultural context, that could well be fatal.

It is difficult for historically informed people to imagine what the world would look like without the Catholic Church as a major force. We could find out within our lifetimes though.

8 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:16:17pm

re: #7 Shiplord Kirel

I'm really wondering how much worse this will get. At first, it was portrayed as just an American problem. Now it has spread to Europe and the Third World and is encroaching on the papacy itself. If Benedict is forced to resign over this, it will be the worst crisis for Catholicism since the Reformation, possibly the worst ever. In today's cultural context, that could well be fatal.

It is difficult for historically informed people to imagine what the world would look like without the Catholic Church as a major force. We could find out within our lifetimes though.

I don't really think so, Shiplord, although my mother converted to the Episcopal faith, and I myself have had more than a few thoughts of doing the same.

This is so shameful.

9 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:18:09pm

Anti-catholic bigots like the batshit crazy Jack Chick have alleged for centuries that the Catholic Church was rife with pedophilia. Indeed, some have claimed that it is the primary reason for the Church's existence and all else is camouflage.
It galls me to no end that they may turn out to have been right.

10 tradewind  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:21:57pm

re: #9 Shiplord Kirel

Indeed, some have claimed that it is the primary reason for the Church's existence

..... Dude.
In the history of ' Some have claimed's, that one's right up there...

11 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:23:10pm

re: #9 Shiplord Kirel

Anti-catholic bigots like the batshit crazy Jack Chick have alleged for centuries that the Catholic Church was rife with pedophilia. Indeed, some have claimed that it is the primary reason for the Church's existence and all else is camouflage.
It galls me to no end that they may turn out to have been right.

Even one incident is bad.

That there were several incidents and that the Church leadership engaged in a coverup and reassignment of these priests is unimaginable.

I know so many really good Catholics and priests. Next to the actual victims, these are the people who are hurt the most by all of this. Not the Vatican; not the Pope. Actual real-life Catholics.

The church leadership has blinders on; this Easter, we were asked to pray for the Pope against these "accusations". We've never been asked to pray for the victims. We've never been asked to pray for those good priests who now suffer when the congregation will not trust them as much as they should.

The Vatican is acting like it (and the Pope) are the only Catholics existing in the world. They've forgotten the rest of us.

12 Stanghazi  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:23:13pm

Sorry to go OT so quickly, but breaking news update

UPDATE: 21 miners unaccounted for, possibly 6 dead at Raleigh mine

Raleigh WV mine via the Charleston Daily Mail:

[Link: www.dailymail.com...]

13 researchok  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:24:41pm

This behavior by some priests and subsequent cover up behavior does not and cannot upend all the good the Catholic Church does on a daily basis all over the world.

To say that the actions of a few and the cover up tarnish the entire Catholic Church is absurd.

No entire religion- or entire non religious group can or should be tarred and feathered because of the actions of few. As soon the conversation turns to 'all Catholics' or 'all Jews' or 'all (insert group here)' the group in question is no longer the real problem, but rather it is the accusers who need to be questioned.

14 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:25:21pm

re: #12 Stanley Sea

Sorry to go OT so quickly, but breaking news update

UPDATE: 21 miners unaccounted for, possibly 6 dead at Raleigh mine

Raleigh WV mine via the Charleston Daily Mail:

[Link: www.dailymail.com...]

Oh, gee.
This is so terrible.
I really hate hearing news of somebody's day taking a radical turn for the worse.

15 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:25:25pm

re: #11 reine.de.tout

{Reine}

Just wanted to say that I think you're awesome, and that I wish there were more people like you.

16 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:25:55pm

re: #11 reine.de.tout

The Church as an organization cares only about The Church. To them the real victims aren't those molested, the victims are the church as an institution. Reading over some of the stuff at Sully's place this is not the first time the church has dealt with similar situations.

17 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:26:27pm

Why could not the bishop in Arizona do something effective locally?

This all stinks at every level.

18 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:26:34pm

re: #15 Slumbering Behemoth

{sleepy B}
You're sweet!
And awesome yourself.

LGF is an awesome place with lots of awesome people, ain't it?

19 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:28:23pm

re: #17 Ojoe

I was reading that the bishop was doing everything he could through the church and canonical law. The powers that be in the vatican were dropping the ball. My guess is the bishop felt his vows to the church super-ceded what he should have done (turned in the offenders to the police) and the victims were not forthcoming to law enforcement either.

20 palomino  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:28:56pm

re: #13 researchok

This isn't about all Catholics or even all priests.

It's about those Catholics who were abused and then became victims of cover-ups, which extended way up the Church hierarchy.

21 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:29:30pm

One of the issues here is the fact that for years this was handled as though it was a sin that could be repented of and left behind, not a crime.

Also, this particularly type of criminal can never be trusted with children again, never.

22 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:30:29pm

re: #18 reine.de.tout

You've got integrity out the wazzoo, as far as I'm concerned. When many would just as soon make excuses and try to sweep things under the rug, you do not. Nor do you tolerate those that do.

23 researchok  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:30:50pm

re: #20 palomino

This isn't about all Catholics or even all priests.

It's about those Catholics who were abused and then became victims of cover-ups, which extended way up the Church hierarchy.

I absolutely agree- those who took part ought to pay the price and then some. The crimes and cover up are abhorrent.

Unfortunately, all too often it's the throw the baby out with the bathwater' tune that gets played.

24 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:31:41pm

re: #7 Shiplord Kirel

It is difficult for historically informed people to imagine what the world would look like without the Catholic Church as a major force. We could find out within our lifetimes though.

Well it will be a lesser place without the Church & things like the encyclical Rerum Novarum.

Time to clean house, I hope they do.

Or maybe I should say "we"? I was brought up Catholic but I'm really far from a church-goer at this point.

25 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:32:23pm

re: #17 Ojoe

Why could not the bishop in Arizona do something effective locally?

This all stinks at every level.

You know...I enjoy 99% of all topics here.. This one hurts me...
I could almost get my head around a few priests being sick motherf*ckers in the world...This scandal is widespread and really..Beyond belief..
Looks like it's the 13 hundreds all over again.. The Church needs reform.. Big time

26 tradewind  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:32:59pm

re: #13 researchok
The abuse of children by priests or any person in a position of authority is horrific. It is not exclusive to the Catholic church..... it's just that the Episcopalians, Southern Baptists, and Methodists don't have the same political weight, and make less interesting targets. The Church's refusal to adjust its position on some social issues to conform to the media's standards only makes them a broader target.
It is awful for sure that the structure is so entrenched that covering up this scandal has been easier. Hopefully this will start that unraveling.

27 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:33:28pm

re: #24 Ojoe

Well it will be a lesser place without the Church & things like the encyclical Rerum Novarum.

Time to clean house, I hope they do.

Or maybe I should say "we"? I was brought up Catholic but I'm really far from a church-goer at this point.

I don't think it ever really leaves you.

28 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:34:00pm

re: #8 reine.de.tout

I don't really think so, Shiplord, although my mother converted to the Episcopal faith, and I myself have had more than a few thoughts of doing the same.

In the end I don't think it matters what label you stick upon yourself, what matters is how you live your life.

29 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:34:34pm

re: #27 reine.de.tout

No it doesn't.

30 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:34:35pm

re: #28 Ojoe

In the end I don't think it matters what label you stick upon yourself, what matters is how you live your life.


Yep, I agree.

31 windsagio  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:35:10pm

re: #26 tradewind

So the people that have less power to cover it up are just as guilty?

The only scandals I can think of that are even 1/1000 of this scale were Fraudulent.

People are people but let's not generalize unless we're pretty sure.

32 windsagio  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:36:13pm

re: #26 tradewind

The Church's refusal to adjust its position on some social issues to conform to the media's standards only makes them a broader target.

Actually had to quote this. You're saying that the Catholic Church was being especially targeted by the media for its moral stands.

Do you really believe this?

33 brookly red  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:37:24pm

re: #32 windsagio

Actually had to quote this. You're saying that the Catholic Church was being especially targeted by the media for its moral stands.

Do you really believe this?


I read it as because of political clout...

34 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:37:54pm

re: #32 windsagio

Oh sure, it is a side issue here but the media loves to go after any big target.

35 tradewind  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:38:43pm

re: #21 EmmmieG
So true. Treating them as sinners who can be given absolution on earth and sent out clean again has been a big mistake.
They can be forgiven, but not in this life. Pedophiles have a re-offend rate that is almost impossible to lower.

36 windsagio  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:38:48pm

re: #33 brookly red

That's not much better, it implies that THE MEDIA (tm) is more interested in taking down a big target than in reporting a huge and sensational story that both needs to be reported and is amazing ratings fodder.

It is a little better tho' >

37 brookly red  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:39:29pm

re: #34 Ojoe

Oh sure, it is a side issue here but the media loves to go after any big target.

so the deficit should be next right?

38 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:40:06pm

re: #26 tradewind

The abuse of children by priests or any person in a position of authority is horrific. It is not exclusive to the Catholic church... it's just that the Episcopalians, Southern Baptists, and Methodists don't have the same political weight, and make less interesting targets. The Church's refusal to adjust its position on some social issues to conform to the media's standards only makes them a broader target.
It is awful for sure that the structure is so entrenched that covering up this scandal has been easier. Hopefully this will start that unraveling.

The Church may be a broad target.
But these are very real incidents and accusations.

The Church is not the Vatican, nor is it the Pope, but they seem to have forgotten that. The Church is me and those like me, and we're sick of these coverups, sick of the utter failure of the Church to address these huge problems.

Hopefully, bringing these problems to light in this way will in the end have a positive, cleansing effect - in other words, things need to be cleaned up NOW, and policies put in place to deal with these things properly and immediately at the local level.

I think that's what will end up happening, but I'm afraid we have a long haul before us.

39 Ojoe  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:40:20pm

re: #37 brookly red

I saw some headlines in the papers today about the deficit.

40 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:40:29pm

I hope more people are empowered to come forward and "out" the pedophiles among the clergy who abused them. If any good is to come of this, it's that the abuse is exposed to the light of day. Perhaps more survivors from other faiths, not just Catholic, will reveal harm done so that hopefully, as a race and nation, we can begin to deal with this horrific reality.

Granted, I say this as an adult who has never been abused, so it's easier said than done.

41 Varek Raith  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:40:37pm

re: #26 tradewind

...?

42 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:41:13pm

re: #35 tradewind

So true. Treating them as sinners who can be given absolution on earth and sent out clean again has been a big mistake.
They can be forgiven, but not in this life. Pedophiles have a re-offend rate that is almost impossible to lower.

The irony is that the Catholic church had the power to build a monastery in a remote location, and forcibly send offenders there.

43 allegro  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:41:57pm

re: #11 reine.de.tout

The church leadership has blinders on; this Easter, we were asked to pray for the Pope against these "accusations". We've never been asked to pray for the victims. We've never been asked to pray for those good priests who now suffer when the congregation will not trust them as much as they should.

I think that would make me literally choke and leave the building. Was there any protest or lack of participation among church members?

44 brookly red  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:42:16pm

re: #36 windsagio

That's not much better, it implies that THE MEDIA (tm) is more interested in taking down a big target than in reporting a huge and sensational story that both needs to be reported and is amazing ratings fodder.

It is a little better tho' >

Well the story needs to be told & addressed & at the same it's always to go after someone you don't like... I am not a Catholic I have no dog in the fight.

45 brookly red  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:43:21pm

re: #42 EmmmieG

The irony is that the Catholic church had the power to build a monastery in a remote location, and forcibly send offenders there.

//Holy FEMA camps! is that true?

46 tradewind  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:43:23pm

re: #32 windsagio
(Choosing words carefully for you)...
I think that the Church's position re abortion, homosexual marriage, and a few other things are red flags in the faces of, for example, Maureen Dowd , Andrew Sullivan, et al, you bet'cha.
Let me be very clear that I don't think that in any way mitigates the horrors of the offenses against the children, or provides cover... ...and please don't rewrite my post to reflect that.

47 Varek Raith  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:44:12pm

To be blunt, the Church brought this down upon themselves.

48 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:44:27pm

re: #43 allegro

I think that would make me literally choke and leave the building. Was there any protest or lack of participation among church members?

Well -
My prayers were that the Pope would have his eyes opened, and deal with this head on, quit hiding, quit covering up.
And that the victims find peace.

I have no clue what anyone else actually did, but I suspect it was along similar lines to what I did.

49 windsagio  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:45:07pm

re: #46 tradewind

I'm not denying the second part of this post or the other.

I just simply cannot understand the need to turn any part of this story into an attack on the press.

50 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:45:23pm

re: #45 brookly red

//Holy FEMA camps! is that true?

Didn't priests have to go where they were told to go? I thought they did. (I am ignorant of this, but I was under the impression that priests could be assigned to a spot.)

At any rate, they could have not been employed places there were children.

51 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:45:36pm

re: #42 EmmmieG

The irony is that the Catholic church had the power to build a monastery in a remote location, and forcibly send offenders there.

I'd prefer to see them face criminal charges just as any other offender would.

52 windsagio  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:45:39pm

re: #46 tradewind

Or the bizarre thing about how 'other religoius groups do it too', as if that were remotely relevant.

53 Eclectic Infidel  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:45:56pm

re: #47 Varek Raith

To be blunt, the Church brought this down upon themselves.

Yes. And I think the lot of 'em should be charged with criminal conspiracy and if found guilty in a court of law, incarcerated with maximum penalties. There is no reason to give them a free pass just because they are clergy.

54 tradewind  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:46:30pm

re: #49 windsagio
What is this interest in editing? I believe that job is taken.

55 tradewind  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:46:57pm

BBL.

56 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:47:42pm

re: #42 EmmmieG

The irony is that the Catholic church had the power to build a monastery in a remote location, and forcibly send offenders there.

They should be defrocked and ex-communicated.
And that penalty should be made widely known.

These people are deliberately using the "forgiveness" bit as a way to engage in whatever activity they want to engage in. There's no intention to "go and sin no more". None.

It's like using the sacrament of confession as permission to sin all you want. Not supposed to work that way. One is supposed to make an honest effort not to sin.

My humble opinion.

57 A Man for all Seasons  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:48:41pm

re: #47 Varek Raith

To be blunt, the Church brought this down upon themselves.

This is my view..I never knew a priest that preyed on us Altar boys..
I will tell you this..If a Priest ever grabbed my penis I would have knocked him the fuck out.. I think most of my classmates would have..
This means these bastard preyed on the weakest children in School..Those they felt they could take advantage of...Those we should protect the most..
Fuckers

58 windsagio  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:48:54pm

re: #54 tradewind

Editing? Huh?

59 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:49:01pm

I have to split, but before I go, my calender tells me I should wish all the Canucks out there a Happy Easter Monday!
/Easter Monday (Canada)

Later Lizards.

60 windsagio  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:49:21pm

re: #57 HoosierHoops

That's how sexual predators work >>

61 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:49:30pm

re: #59 Slumbering Behemoth

I have to split, but before I go, my calender tells me I should wish all the Canucks out there a Happy Easter Monday!
/Easter Monday (Canada)

Later Lizards.

Later!

62 Stanghazi  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:49:41pm

re: #52 windsagio

Or the bizarre thing about how 'other religoius groups do it too', as if that were remotely relevant.

Hell, I'm confused how the deficit came into the conver.

63 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:52:10pm

re: #10 tradewind

... Dude.
In the history of ' Some have claimed's, that one's right up there...

Not at all. I should have avoided that usage since it is usually just a weasel-word way to make an unsupported assertion, but that is not what I am doing. I didn't think it was necessary to name any more of these bigots beyond Chick himself, but they would include (off the top of my head) Chick's alleged source, the conspira-loon Alberto Rivera, and Ulster Protestant leader Ian Paisley.

64 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:52:32pm

re: #38 reine.de.tout

The Church may be a broad target.
But these are very real incidents and accusations.

The Church is not the Vatican, nor is it the Pope, but they seem to have forgotten that. The Church is me and those like me, and we're sick of these coverups, sick of the utter failure of the Church to address these huge problems.

Hopefully, bringing these problems to light in this way will in the end have a positive, cleansing effect - in other words, things need to be cleaned up NOW, and policies put in place to deal with these things properly and immediately at the local level.

I think that's what will end up happening, but I'm afraid we have a long haul before us.

Indeed, but the parishioners have no pull, no power in the Church, yes? That's the problem. You're right that this is a good thing. I see that, too. People are suing and winning, if I recall a few years back. Will these bishops, priests be prosecuted? Defrocked is good. Excommunicated is good, but they should be tried. They committed crimes. Or does the Church just pay settlements? The victims do deserve money. The Church can't pay enough really, but the perpetrators and the co-conspirators need to be prosecuted.

Will it happen? And who will continue to police the Vatican, the Church and all the Churches all over the world?

65 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:54:07pm

re: #51 Slumbering Behemoth

I'd prefer to see them face criminal charges just as any other offender would.

I was thinking of the 19th century, when they really weren't prosecuting any of this.

Interesting side note:

The first child abuse case in the US was a little girl named Mary Ellen.

It was a good "first case." Her abuses were not her parents, nor even legally in possession of her. Her real parents were Irish immigrants who had died, and foster father had lied and said she was his biological daughter to get her out of the orphanage. (They were replacing a dead daughter.) It might have been harder to try a case against biological parents; people hadn't yet gotten out of the mindset that parents could do to their own flesh and blood what they wanted to.

It helped that she had been given a vicious cut across her face just before they removed her, so that they published pictures of her looking pathetic.

I know this sounds cynical, but it was a good start to a good cause.

66 brookly red  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:55:25pm

re: #64 marjoriemoon

Indeed, but the parishioners have no pull, no power in the Church, yes? That's the problem. You're right that this is a good thing. I see that, too. People are suing and winning, if I recall a few years back. Will these bishops, priests be prosecuted? Defrocked is good. Excommunicated is good, but they should be tried. They committed crimes. Or does the Church just pay settlements? The victims do deserve money. The Church can't pay enough really, but the perpetrators and the co-conspirators need to be prosecuted.

Will it happen? And who will continue to police the Vatican, the Church and all the Churches all over the world?

I know it is not a laughing matter, but the thought of Vatican Police just sounds like a bad movie.

67 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:57:21pm

re: #64 marjoriemoon

I doubt we'll ever see much in the way of criminal prosecutions (at least in the U.S.). While I think there should be prosecutions and we should put the perpetrators in jail it seems that doing so would be almost like touching a third rail since it is "The Church" that is involved. Given the cover-up and obvious level of conspiracy it would probably open up a humongous and nasty can of worms.

68 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:58:30pm

re: #67 Dreggas

Wounds only heal after they are cleaned.

69 tidledam  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:58:31pm

From religion of peace to religion of pigs

... what a wonderful world:

70 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 3:59:19pm
71 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:00:14pm

re: #68 EmmmieG


Oh I aggree believe me. I just don't know if there is a prosecutorial body capable of doing anything about this. It's not just in one country, it's worldwide at this point.

72 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:01:09pm

re: #71 Dreggas

Oh I aggree believe me. I just don't know if there is a prosecutorial body capable of doing anything about this. It's not just in one country, it's worldwide at this point.

It would be local prosecution, I would imagine.

But I agree with you that it won't happen. I think the Church is too powerful to allow it and that's very sad, indeed.

73 albusteve  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:01:40pm

re: #67 Dreggas

I doubt we'll ever see much in the way of criminal prosecutions (at least in the U.S.). While I think there should be prosecutions and we should put the perpetrators in jail it seems that doing so would be almost like touching a third rail since it is "The Church" that is involved. Given the cover-up and obvious level of conspiracy it would probably open up a humongous and nasty can of worms.

the nasty can is already open...not to prosecute would be a travesty of the law...who gives a fuck what the name of the church is

74 brookly red  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:01:57pm

re: #71 Dreggas

Oh I aggree believe me. I just don't know if there is a prosecutorial body capable of doing anything about this. It's not just in one country, it's worldwide at this point.

think globally, prosecute locally.

75 albusteve  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:03:16pm

re: #71 Dreggas

Oh I aggree believe me. I just don't know if there is a prosecutorial body capable of doing anything about this. It's not just in one country, it's worldwide at this point.

arrest the perps and try them...why could that be so difficult?....because somebody doesn't want to?

76 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:05:16pm

re: #73 albusteve

It is open. I guess the only thing left is to see how deep the rot goes.

re: #74 brookly red

Yeah, it would be a start. I just see it spinning out of control. The church would use any prosecution as a means to scream persecution just as they are doing now with regard to the NYT and other news sources printing this stuff. Further it would be turned into a political football wherever it happens. Here in the U.S. even more so.

77 albusteve  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:05:34pm

re: #72 marjoriemoon

It would be local prosecution, I would imagine.

But I agree with you that it won't happen. I think the Church is too powerful to allow it and that's very sad, indeed.

nobody is above criminal law....well, maybe Bush

78 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:06:14pm

re: #7 Shiplord Kirel

If Benedict is forced to resign over this, it will be the worst crisis for Catholicism since the Reformation, possibly the worst ever. In today's cultural context, that could well be fatal.

I have become convinced that

1) this is the worst threat to Roman authority/magisterium since the Donatists and that
2) the current inhabitants of the Vatican have no realization of just how serious the threat really is.

I'm a pretty high church Episcopalian because I never could accept Roman authority - but why do they seem intent on proving me right on that in the worst ways possible? They need a complete house cleaning but there isn't any way for that to happen from the inside.

William

79 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:07:03pm

re: #75 albusteve

They may want to, but I doubt they'd have the intestinal fortitude to do it. The entirety of the church's weight would be thrown behind the defense and they'd do everything they could to obfuscate everything.

80 albusteve  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:08:48pm

re: #79 Dreggas

They may want to, but I doubt they'd have the intestinal fortitude to do it. The entirety of the church's weight would be thrown behind the defense and they'd do everything they could to obfuscate everything.

you read too many thrillers....it can be done, no Popefather or his henchmen are above the law, you cannot allow that

81 Political Atheist  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:09:24pm

re: #77 albusteve

Another head of state-The Pope would be beyond reach. But nobody else. The higher ups that hid the predators are co conspirators in a horrific felony. Jail. Jail. Jail. Then Megans list. Every one of the predators and the deliberate enablers.

82 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:10:39pm

re: #77 albusteve

nobody is above criminal law...well, maybe Bush

I'll leave that last remark alone :)

Of course, in theory, no one is above the law, but I'd be quite surprised if these men were prosecuted.

83 allegro  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:10:48pm

What I wonder is if, and how much, this has affected enrollment in Catholic schools. I think that if I had a child in school, it would be a major consideration of the child's safety. Not that all priests are abusers, but how would we know with the institutional cover-ups and relocation of abusing priests.

84 Racer X  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:10:54pm

re: #68 EmmmieG

Wounds only heal after they are cleaned.

Yep.

This has been going on for far too long. Decades ago they knew this was a serious problem, and they did not clean out the wound. They just keep letting it scab over, then they poke it with a dirty stick, and it starts all over again.

Enough already!

Think about the kids.

85 albusteve  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:11:55pm

re: #81 Rightwingconspirator

Another head of state-The Pope would be beyond reach. But nobody else. The higher ups that hid the predators are co conspirators in a horrific felony. Jail. Jail. Jail. Then Megans list. Every one of the predators and the deliberate enablers.

heads of state can and have been taken down....I really don't know where this notion comes from....time to play hardball with these assholes imo

86 albusteve  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:13:49pm

re: #82 marjoriemoon

I'll leave that last remark alone :)

Of course, in theory, no one is above the law, but I'd be quite surprised if these men were prosecuted.

religious discrimination of the highest order...what about the Methodists or Reverend Billy's Church of Vipers?....then they deserve the same treatment

87 Killgore Trout  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:14:02pm

Erickson Shotgun-Census Remark: Commerce Dept. Pushes Back

Going through the logistics of the process, Kimball noted that the census workers dispatched to help collect raw data (in the form of a ten-point questionnaire) are usually fellow locals. Taking a small dig at Erickson, without naming names, he added:

So, that means someone knocking on a door in, for example, Macon, Georgia, is likely to be from that community or neighborhood. They're just someone looking for a little extra work during these difficult economic times - and looking to help fulfill the mission of our Founding Fathers.
88 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:14:30pm

re: #28 Ojoe

In the end I don't think it matters what label you stick upon yourself, what matters is how you live your life.

Quite Concur.

Afternoon all. The hoped for new job did not really pan out. I'm not committed yet, so I'm going to rescind my acceptance of the offer. It had a couple problems, but the killer was a different pay structure than the one laid out in the interview.

89 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:15:46pm

re: #86 albusteve

religious discrimination of the highest order...what about the Methodists or Reverend Billy's Church of Vipers?...then they deserve the same treatment

Hey, I'm with ya. I'm just more cynical about it.

90 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:16:35pm

re: #85 albusteve

heads of state can and have been taken down...I really don't know where this notion comes from...time to play hardball with these assholes imo

Heads of state have to do things that damage the interests of other countries far worse than the Pope has done to be overthrown. He will not be removed by external government action.

91 Stanghazi  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:16:54pm

re: #88 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur.

Afternoon all. The hoped for new job did not really pan out. I'm not committed yet, so I'm going to rescind my acceptance of the offer. It had a couple problems, but the killer was a different pay structure than the one laid out in the interview.

Ah DF, hang in there & trust yourself. Better things ahead.

92 The Sanity Inspector  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:17:08pm

re: #88 Dark_Falcon

Quite Concur.

Afternoon all. The hoped for new job did not really pan out. I'm not committed yet, so I'm going to rescind my acceptance of the offer. It had a couple problems, but the killer was a different pay structure than the one laid out in the interview.

Everything they offer, ask for it in writing. You were smart to walk away; if they dicked you around on the compensation, they would probably play you false on other matters, too. Better luck next time.

93 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:17:08pm

re: #80 albusteve

It's already been allowed. Look what happened to bernard law. He was whisked off to the vatican and underlings took the fall.

94 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:17:37pm

Shame Charles, shame on you for spreading more "petty gossip" about the infallible and obviously completely blameless Pope!

Or as Bill Donohue of the Catholic League has so clearly put this entire controversy into a much more rational perspective...

"It is a sad day when al-Qaeda suspects are afforded more rights than priests."

/// why do I feel so dirty now?

95 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:18:27pm

re: #64 marjoriemoon

Indeed, but the parishioners have no pull, no power in the Church, yes? That's the problem. You're right that this is a good thing. I see that, too. People are suing and winning, if I recall a few years back. Will these bishops, priests be prosecuted? Defrocked is good. Excommunicated is good, but they should be tried. They committed crimes. Or does the Church just pay settlements? The victims do deserve money. The Church can't pay enough really, but the perpetrators and the co-conspirators need to be prosecuted.

Will it happen? And who will continue to police the Vatican, the Church and all the Churches all over the world?

Oh, absolutely they should be prosecuted!
They have in the past, at least some. I addressed the other issues because thus far, they've been allowed to continue in the priesthood, and have not been ex-communicated. The ex-communication, IMO, should happen not because they've sinned - it should happen because they have no intention of stopping their sinful (and illegal) behavior.

96 reine.de.tout  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:19:02pm

re: #94 ausador

Bill Donohue is an effin' idiot, and has been forever.
Just disgusting.

97 albusteve  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:19:12pm

re: #90 Dark_Falcon

Heads of state have to do things that damage the interests of other countries far worse than the Pope has done to be overthrown. He will not be removed by external government action.

it's all hypothetical...if he's complicit in a coverup he should be tried, convicted and toss into a jail somewhere imo....heading up a ring of child rapers is damaging our national interests

98 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:20:24pm

re: #91 Stanley Sea

re: #92 The Sanity Inspector

Thanks guys. The good news was that I was able to reschedule an interview I would have otherwise lost for Wednesday (a job that fits me somewhat better) and I found out today that I will be getting my unemployment. So the news had some good, too.

99 albusteve  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:20:28pm

re: #93 Dreggas

It's already been allowed. Look what happened to bernard law. He was whisked off to the vatican and underlings took the fall.

BO cut Bill Richardson loose too....I'm well aware that govt's don't always do the right thing, but the exact opposite

100 Political Atheist  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:20:57pm

re: #85 albusteve
I agree with you, but that is really rare. Heads of state have significant immunities so they can do the job.

IMHO-A predator Priest is far worse than the usual child predator, because he can violate under the unique trust or "color of authority" as they call it when a cop uses his badge to break the law.

Makes religion, the church and god look bad, just over a selfish sexual obsession that makes them hurt children. What I feel they deserve can not be fully expressed here without breaking rule #4. (that is the one with the proper admonition about advocating violence I think) Good thing I separate my worst feelings from my typing, let alone real actions.

101 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:21:22pm

That sucks, DF. I'm sorry they were trying to screw you.

102 researchok  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:24:03pm

What has happened in Catholic Church is not unique. Every church and every religion has a history of dysfunctional leadership at one time or another.

Until there is a lay 'Board of Directors' (open and visible to all) that holds the management of the church accountable these problems will persist.

The 'Board of Directors' ought not and should not involve itself with religious or ecclesiastical matters. Their entire focus ought to be on efficient and open management practices of the Church. Problems need to be addressed and remediation (if and when possible) ought to be swift and clear. Further, it ought to be the policy of the church to fully cooperate with law enforcement at all times with no exceptions, no matter the crime.

In fact, every large religious and communal organization ought to follow suit.

103 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:25:29pm

re: #95 reine.de.tout

Oh, absolutely they should be prosecuted!
They have in the past, at least some. I addressed the other issues because thus far, they've been allowed to continue in the priesthood, and have not been ex-communicated. The ex-communication, IMO, should happen not because they've sinned - it should happen because they have no intention of stopping their sinful (and illegal) behavior.

Indeed. I know we've talked about this before, but if the clergy were allowed to marry, don't you think it would change the atmosphere of the Church? At least you would have the majority of the clergy with wives and children and pedophiles would not have a place. Or certainly have less of a place. It would stop attracting them. And other priests would be more apt to stop it/report it if they see it.

104 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:30:14pm

re: #101 Obdicut

That sucks, DF. I'm sorry they were trying to screw you.

It wasn't a screw job. But it was different than I had been led to believe and when it comes to pay that's normally a deal-breaker.

105 sagehen  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:30:56pm

re: #103 marjoriemoon

For more than a thousand years they were allowed to marry; until the Church noticed that priests were spending energy and attention on providing for their children (both in childhood and hoping to leave them an inheritance). The church, in all its infinite wisdom, decided that priests with families had dangerously divided loyalties and that simply couldn't be allowed.

106 The Shadow Do  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:31:20pm

I'll tell you who is getting screwed, again. The victims. I was one, not by a Priest though I was approached by one - once.

This cover up is almost as damaging to those who were ruined as the original offense. It is as though the offense never happened so long as it is denied.

I should shut up because I do not want to say what I really feel about this topic.

107 firstinla  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:31:40pm

Catholicism has been a passive religion for centuries. The lay people have no say in any part of church administration. They have no say in which priest is assigned to the local church. To say that lay people have no power is just bullshit. It is these people who put the bucks in the collection buckets. If the people were really that concerned about the administration of the church (Vatican, et al.) they would refuse to give the church any money until the pope and bishops resigned and give the people in the pews administrative power.

108 What, me worry?  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:32:55pm

re: #105 sagehen

For more than a thousand years they were allowed to marry; until the Church noticed that priests were spending energy and attention on providing for their children (both in childhood and hoping to leave them an inheritance). The church, in all its infinite wisdom, decided that priests with families had dangerously divided loyalties and that simply couldn't be allowed.

Ahh. Didn't know that.

109 Obdicut  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:33:03pm

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

Well, it's radically unprofessional on their part anyway.

Best of luck in the new opportunity.

110 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:35:23pm

re: #109 Obdicut

Well, it's radically unprofessional on their part anyway.

Best of luck in the new opportunity.

Most likely just something they thought they could 'push past', but I'm not inclined to accept such things.

111 firstinla  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 4:35:28pm

A couple weeks ago there was a news story about sexual abuse in the Boy Scouts: documentation that was hidden away, boys and their families paid off to keep quiet. That story disappeared in a hurry. I'll go back and look it up to provide a link.

112 Midas Mulligan  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 5:11:24pm

1. Full civil investigation of all alleged cases of child abuse. No exceptions.
2. Criminal prosecution of all valid cases.
3. Punish guilty priests like any other offender. That includes sending old one and sick priests into the general prison population. No exceptions.
4. In the immortal words of Frank Zappa: "Tax the Churches". Then the mosques and temples. This poison was allowed to spread because religion was accorded special privileges.

113 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 5:12:17pm

re: #6 reine.de.tout

In this case, many of these crimes continued specifically because the coverup allowed them to.

The Vatican has no clue that this has ended badly for many many children; forget how it ends for the Vatican, it deserves whatever happens.

I have to say you always surprise me, pleasantly, and I hope I didn't offend in another thread recently.

Actually, I shouldn't say surprise. Impress is better.

114 tradewind  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 5:42:01pm

re: #63 Shiplord Kirel
Oh, okay. Glad I saw this.... I had another take on the post and am happy to have my view corrected.

115 Achilles Tang  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 5:45:33pm

re: #112 Midas Mulligan


4. In the immortal words of Frank Zappa: "Tax the Churches". Then the mosques and temples. This poison was allowed to spread because religion was accorded special privileges.

Accorded by whom? Why, by the people.

See the problem with your argument?

116 Midas Mulligan  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 5:59:59pm

#115 Naso Tang
If you belong to a religious organization, that's your business and no-one else's, so long as you and your organization are not hurting anyone.

But there is no reason why I -- or anyone else for that matter -- should pay for your choices with tax breaks.

Nor should we give the leaders of your church, sect or cult special privileges.

All should be equal under the law.

117 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 9:58:59pm

re: #3 HypnoToad

You hear the phrase that "The coverup is worse than the crime". In this case, I don't know which is worse. I think that the Vatican realizes that this will eventually end badly for them. Too much is coming out too fast for them to control.

The crime relied on the coverups. Most of these priests would have been stopped early if action had been taken as soon as their superiors became aware of the problem.

118 Liet_Kynes  Mon, Apr 5, 2010 11:11:24pm

Way late to the party so I will just add a few thing here and hopefully I will be able to put two cents in when the topic comes up again.

*All Catholic diocese are competent to handle all clerical crimes, save those reserved to the Holy See (most abuse cases are not reserved to the Holy See), with the Congregations of the Vatican primarily functioning as support and appeals process.
*Prior to 2001 the Congregation for the Clergy handed sexual abuse cases.
*Until 2001 the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith did not handle sexual abuse cases. It handled cases that involved sacramental violations such a violations of the seal of the confessional.
*Cases involving the seal of the confessional are very difficult to investigate because a priest cannot divulge what happens under the seal of the confessional even in his own defense. It is why they take a while to prosecute.
*In 2001 all sexual abuse cases were transferred from the CDC to the CDF by Pope John Paul II because the CDF under Joseph Ratzinger was pushing for quicker more expedient handling of the abuse cases and was staffed by individuals interested in dealing with and culling out the problem.

re: #117 SanFranciscoZionist

The crime relied on the coverups. Most of these priests would have been stopped early if action had been taken as soon as their superiors became aware of the problem.

Part of the problem is that some of their superiors were part of the problem and were engaging in abuse themselves. The middle part of the problem is that there was an atmosphere of not dealing pro-actively and in a punative manner with the problem - ignoring canon law. The last part of the problem is that priests / bishops who wanted to deal pro-actively with the problem were often railroaded and blocked by those in the first two categories.

Thought it should be noted that we don't hear about cases where things where handled correctly.


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