First part not a war crime, second part almost certainly one.

/just my opinion of course >>

I think we need to find out more before deciding, but the left will jump to the conclusions that the crew of the AH-64 are murderers and then proceed to condemn the US Army in general from that.

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

Who do you mean when you say 'the left'?

Do you mean President Barack Obama, who is part of 'the left', and some would say the most important person on 'the left'?

Do you mean myself and SFZ, who are part of 'the left'?

Note that Wikileaks is claiming that they had to break the military encryption of this video -- which seems very odd to me. Military encryption is exceedingly tough to break; if Wikileaks has a way to do it, they're ahead of most governments in the world.

I dont understand... wasnt Limbaugh trumpeting a while back how "we" allow iraqi citizens to own firearms? That being said, I could clearly tell those cameras werent RPG's. Do I have the benefit of hindsight? Yes. Would I ever be so eager to pull the trigger like that? No. THAT being said... the second part should have brought courts martial... clearly.

Couldnt it just be guards for a camera man that knew how to work his way around, etc.?

There WAS a cover up. Whole thing is really upsetting.

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

I think we need to find out more before deciding, but the left will jump to the conclusions that the crew of the AH-64 are murderers and then proceed to condemn the US Army in general from that.

I think that in order for a crime to have been committed there would need to be intent. I can't say if there was.

re: #3 Obdicut

Who do you mean when you say 'the left'?

Do you mean President Barack Obama, who is part of 'the left', and some would say the most important person on 'the left'?

Do you mean myself and SFZ, who are part of 'the left'?

I do not mean any of the regulars here, nor the president either. But there are leftists (many in the media) who will jump on a story like this and use it as a club to bash the military and discredit the surge. I do not believe the president to be that sort of leftist, but such people are a part of his political base.

AP source confirms video of Baghdad firefight

According to a July 19 summary of the investigation, obtained by AP, U.S. troops acted appropriately. Reuters employees were likely "intermixed among the insurgents" and difficult to distinguish because of their equipment, the document states.

"It is worth noting the fact that insurgent groups often video and photograph friendly activity and insurgent attacks against friendly forces for use in training videos and for use as propaganda to exploit or highlight their capabilities," the document concludes.
...
In this incident, soldiers flying attack helicopters were called in to assist ground troops who had been pinned down by small-arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades.

According to U.S. officials, the pilots arrived at the scene to find a group of men approaching the fight with what looked to be AK-47s slung over their shoulders and at least one rocket-propelled grenade.

A military investigation later concluded that what was thought to be an RPG was really a long-range photography lens; likewise, the camera looked like an AK-47.

I'm not sure that last part is correct. They might have been mistaken about the RPG but there were men with AK's there. Not much doubt about it.

The "arms" were later to be found be cameras carried by the Reuters reporters, but that is hindsight, after the fact. it looks like a fog of war incident at the beginning, not sure about the firing on the rescuers. The fact that the video was suppressed makes it seem perhaps poor judgment was used.
The group seemed to be walking casually, but pointing long lens cameras in a hot zone is a risky operation.

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

I think we need to find out more before deciding, but the left will jump to the conclusions that the crew of the AH-64 are murderers and then proceed to condemn the US Army in general from that.

this isn't an unfair generalization at all. as we all know, as liberals ever absolutely despise all members of the military.

re: #9 avanti

The "arms" were later to be found be cameras carried by the Reuters reporters, but that is hindsight, after the fact. it looks like a fog of war incident at the beginning, not sure about the firing on the rescuers. The fact that the video was suppressed makes it seem perhaps poor judgment was used.
The group seemed to be walking casually, but pointing long lens cameras in a hot zone is a risky operation.

I agree with the last point, it IS a risky operation... but I still dont think it justifies the action. Afterwards, the military tried saying the people were just returning fire. Nobody was fired on.

The gunner says that the bodies are front of some blue trucks. Is he seeing in colour when the recording is monochrome? That might have some bearing on whether cameras can really be confused with rifles and RPGs.

re: #11 gopninja

Nobody was fired on.

That's not true. The helicopters were there supporting ground troops who were under attack.

re: #4 Charles

Note that Wikileaks is claiming that they had to break the military encryption of this video -- which seems very odd to me. Military encryption is exceedingly tough to break; if Wikileaks has a way to do it, they're ahead of most governments in the world.

All it takes is a weak pass phrase & the world's best encryption is worthless. I doubt that a VCR had any real encryption on it though. Copy protection, maybe, but nothing serious. But it makes them sound like Teh Hakorz & l33t to make the claim.

As for the case, based on what we were taught & classes I gave as an NCO, the first part was a legit attack. Hitting the van was probably a crime; the level of intent would be needed to be known to understand how serious a crime.

And, as always, the cover-up is even worse...

William

re: #4 Charles

Heh. Maybe they just had to download the right codec.

I'd like to note two things:

1. The presentation of this shows a clear bias by WikiLeaks.

2. They continually asked for permission to fire, they reported the situation correctly, and the person giving the permission to fire unambiguously gave permission to fire each time. The people pulling the triggers obviously want to engage, but that's to be expected and should not be held against them.

I do not think it is nor hope it is US policy to fire on people collecting the wounded. I hope that there was some confusion in this case, or that it is being presented in some manner that is skewing the reality.

Because I really do not like the sight of people firing on a van that's collecting the wounded.

re: #13 Killgore Trout

That's not true. The helicopters were there supporting ground troops who were under attack.

I'll eat my words then! If youre right which you probably are, I understand stuff happens in war... even despite all that, the second part of that video is still too much for me to stomach.

War is a muther-flocker.

re: #8 Killgore Trout

AP source confirms video of Baghdad firefight

I'm not sure that last part is correct. They might have been mistaken about the RPG but there were men with AK's there. Not much doubt about it.

This part wasn't mentioned by wikileaks:

In this incident, soldiers flying attack helicopters were called in to assist ground troops who had been pinned down by small-arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades.

I watched the vid...and saw nothing as long as an RPG...
Or even ab AK for that matter.

re: #4 Charles

Not if the leaker was military, and decrypted it for them.

re: #11 gopninja

I agree with the last point, it IS a risky operation... but I still dont think it justifies the action. Afterwards, the military tried saying the people were just returning fire. Nobody was fired on.

OK, in fairness, assume for a moment it was a RPG, and a US convoy was nearby and they did not fire in time to prevent a attack. It was a time where the bad guys wandered the streets looking for US soldiers to kill. Maybe the reporters had armed guards, maybe they were walking with the bad guys, and they paid the ultimate price to cover a war.
I'm more troubled by the firing on what appeared to be citizens trying help the wounded.

re: #19 reloadingisnotahobby

I actually saw the camera and likewise thought it was an RPG.

Or let me rephrase: I saw a long object and made the assumption it was an RPG. I don't know what it is that I saw for certain.

People might disagree, but the pilots called and requested permission to fire, everything followed the chain of command. Why weren't the reporters registered with the military, so that they knew their positions? War is hell. Unfortunate; absolutely. A crime? No way.

re: #15 Obdicut

Heh. Maybe they just had to download the right codec.

I'd like to note two things:

1. The presentation of this shows a clear bias by WikiLeaks.

2. They continually asked for permission to fire, they reported the situation correctly, and the person giving the permission to fire unambiguously gave permission to fire each time. The people pulling the triggers obviously want to engage, but that's to be expected and should not be held against them.

I do not think it is nor hope it is US policy to fire on people collecting the wounded. I hope that there was some confusion in this case, or that it is being presented in some manner that is skewing the reality.

Because I really do not like the sight of people firing on a van that's collecting the wounded.

Thank you, Obdicut, for that clear-headed and fair-minded analysis.

re: #7 Dark_Falcon

I think the amount of anti-military sentiment on the 'left' is vastly over-stated. Many on the 'left' have severe problems with how the military has been used but none with the military per se.

That being said, you are totally right that the attitudes of these fighting men-- the aggressiveness in engaging-- will be used against them by people who do not understand their position in the least.

On a JetBlue flight from Boston to SFO this morning a few of the news stations on the TV headrests were showing the video over and over. I could barely get through it even with the sound off. The footage is pretty horrifying especially on endless repeat.

re: #22 Obdicut

When he was looking around a corner on his knees?
Was the size of a large lens?18 inches? Was held against his chest!
Like a camera man would do prep for a shot...No pun intended.

re: #23 ShaunP

Assuming command was "seeing" what they were seeing...Yes

excellent shooting...
wrong guys I think

re: #19 reloadingisnotahobby

I watched the vid...and saw nothing as long as an RPG...
Or even ab AK for that matter.

That was my issue with the video. Nobody was holding anything I could see except for the cameraman, who threw his camera away as he started to run. That said, I won't go so far as to say it's a war crime, or even try to speculate as to what our troops were thinking at the moment...I've never been in that situation so I have nothing to base my opinions on. I can only say that it's tragic, and that I expect these kinds of events happened more than we'd like to believe.

Part of the reason I was against the war from day one is that, when you fight a guerilla war, every man, woman, and child is the enemy until proven otherwise. And after the first month or so of 'shock and awe' and the Iraqi army was dissolved, this became a guerilla war. And there is no winning that kind of war. Period.

re: #27 reloadingisnotahobby

Hey, I'm not an expert. I'm glad I never have to make a decision about who dies and who doesn't die.

I also know that friendly fire happens all the time, too, and if we were watching the gun cameras from friendly fire it'd be sickening and leave us aghast as well.

The initial engagement seems unfortunate at worst, if there were no weapons. It's the part with the van that is troubling to me.

OT early, but news:
RNC chief of staff Ken McKay resigns

re: #31 Obdicut

Agreed!!

re: #31 Obdicut

Hey, I'm not an expert. I'm glad I never have to make a decision about who dies and who doesn't die.

I also know that friendly fire happens all the time, too, and if we were watching the gun cameras from friendly fire it'd be sickening and leave us aghast as well.

The initial engagement seems unfortunate at worst, if there were no weapons. It's the part with the van that is troubling to me.

correct...why would bad guys rush right into the field of fire to make some sort of rescue, like they don't know they are being watched with a 20mm canon...it makes no sense, that's just suicidal

re: #21 avanti

I'm more troubled by the firing on what appeared to be citizens trying help the wounded.

That is a tough one but there's a fine line between evacuating the wounded and assisting escape. The reason why they fired is because they thought the van was there to collect weapons and help the injured escape capture. It's a common practice, even in "civilized" warfare that you aren't obligated to allow the enemy to escape even if they're wounded.
The van was probably a good Samaritan just trying to help out but the helicopters would have no way of knowing that. It was a stupid move on his part. The wounded would have received better quality care more quickly with US troops anyways. The best thing for the wounded would have been to leave them there.

re: #35 Killgore Trout

That is a tough one but there's a fine line between evacuating the wounded and assisting escape. The reason why they fired is because they thought the van was there to collect weapons and help the injured escape capture. It's a common practice, even in "civilized" warfare that you aren't obligated to allow the enemy to escape even if they're wounded.
The van was probably a good Samaritan just trying to help out but the helicopters would have no way of knowing that. It was a stupid move on his part. The wounded would have received better quality care more quickly with US troops anyways. The best thing for the wounded would have been to leave them there.

again correct imo as well

re: #32 reine.de.tout

"Ken is enormously talented and has been the guy who has kept things on track, he's the guy who steered the party through very successful elections last fall."

That made me spit my tea.

Gotta run, but I want to say to Obdi -
Glad you're here! You add a lot to the discussion, IMO.
And thank you for concluding I'm not particularly dense, you know what I'm talking about.

What do you think?

I think that if today's leftist media had been covering the Pacific War, a goodly percentage of the Marine Corps would have been court-martialed and thrown into the stockade, and the war would have lasted ten years instead of four.

No one is mentioning the two kids.

Oh, I forgot: they were probably being used as combatants.

Well, at least those are two that the Boy Scouts or the Priests won't get.

re: #4 Charles

I think me and Charles are on the same page about this. Wikilinks' claim that they broke military code seems a little fishy to me.

BTW I'm on an iPad now, it's very difficult to type. I'm unimpressed.

re: #38 reine.de.tout

Gotta run, but I want to say to Obdi -
Glad you're here! You add a lot to the discussion, IMO.
And thank you for concluding I'm not particularly dense, you know what I'm talking about.

We're not dense either, Reine. And yes, we know what you're talking about.

It's a goddam schoolyard.

re: #39 The Sanity Inspector

Again, Yowza.

re: #35 Killgore Trout

The wounded would have received better quality care more quickly with US troops anyways. The best thing for the wounded would have been to leave them there.

Given that they intentionally went back and fired again on an obviously wounded guy [barely] crawling away, it doesn't seem very likely there was going to be any care on offer.

re: #41 Hawk With Claws

I think me and Charles are on the same page about this. Wikilinks' claim that they broke military code seems a little fishy to me.

BTW I'm on an iPad now, it's very difficult to type. I'm unimpressed.

Are you listening to music at the same time you are browsing LGF?

re: #44 negativ

There is also nothing against shooting a wounded enemy. In fact, it's kind of advisable, in many ways.

re: #42 ryannon

We're not dense either, Reine. And yes, we know what you're talking about.

It's a goddam schoolyard.

Nobody called you dense.

re: #41 Hawk With Claws

BTW I'm on an iPad now, it's very difficult to type. I'm unimpressed.

It doesn't matter if it's difficult. It's cool. It's like an iPod touch you can't fit in your pocket. Carry it with pride.
/

re: #47 reine.de.tout

at least nobody called you 'fucking useless' :D

Don't let random internet insults get to ya, that way lies madness.

I think that I'm glad I'm not in the position to have to make these kinds of decisions.

re: #44 negativ

Given that they intentionally went back and fired again on an obviously wounded guy [barely] crawling away, it doesn't seem very likely there was going to be any care on offer.

True. Those 20mm cannons make a hell of a mess.

re: #35 Killgore Trout

That is a tough one but there's a fine line between evacuating the wounded and assisting escape. The reason why they fired is because they thought the van was there to collect weapons and help the injured escape capture. It's a common practice, even in "civilized" warfare that you aren't obligated to allow the enemy to escape even if they're wounded.
The van was probably a good Samaritan just trying to help out but the helicopters would have no way of knowing that. It was a stupid move on his part. The wounded would have received better quality care more quickly with US troops anyways. The best thing for the wounded would have been to leave them there.

We also need to find out, if we can, who the people driving the van were. They might have been a AQI retrieval team. That has to be found out before a correct evaluation can be made.

re: #44 negativ

Given that they intentionally went back and fired again on an obviously wounded guy [barely] crawling away, it doesn't seem very likely there was going to be any care on offer.

Exactly, that's what I got. Don't think they were going to be sending in an ambulance or anything.

I agree with Darth - this type of war is a guerrilla war, a long tough ugly war. Was against it in March 2003, and am still against it.

re: #49 windsagio

I don't.
I do appreciate those who explain me in a positive light.
Really gotta go now,
later y'all.

re: #45 Walter L. Newton

Yep! The Apple store was kind enough to throw in some Bangles music. I'm web surfing like an Eyptian!

re: #48 darthstar

Kick ass screen name!

re: #56 Hawk With Claws

Kick ass screen name!

Thanks...I've had it now for 12 years...wow...that's a pretty long time, come to think of it.

re: #49 windsagio

at least nobody called you 'fucking useless' :D

Don't let random internet insults get to ya, that way lies madness.

Quite Concur. If you take a stand on the net, you will have troll dung flung at you. Never let it get you down. Charge in and grill those troll's Gamey Buttocks.

re: #51 Killgore Trout

True. Those 20mm cannons make a hell of a mess.

My first huh? was the frame in the film that said they were 30mm cannon and those are not carried by helicopters...

BBL and hopefully I'll be at the Hawk's Nest and not on an iPad.

re: #55 Hawk With Claws

Yep! The Apple store was kind enough to throw in some Bangles music. I'm web surfing like an Eyptian!

I thought you couldn't use the Ipad to multitasking programs? If you're surfing, you can't listen to music. Yes, no?

Now I'm confused?

re: #59 brookly red

My first huh? was the frame in the film that said they were 30mm cannon and those are not carried by helicopters...

somebody is confused...the 30mm cannon is named the Bushmaster...mounted on the Bradly...wth?

re: #47 reine.de.tout

Nobody called you dense.

When I am, I expect they will.

It's a tough house.

re: #61 Walter L. Newton

You can listen to music while surfing. You can't use two apps at once.

During the U.S. invasion of Panama, a U.S. Army sergeant waxed some Panamanian civilians--"civilians" who attacked U.S. soldiers at a roadblock with hand grenades. His officers rewarded him for probably saving his comrades' lives by court-martialing him. Not only did they destroy morale, but they did the sergeant a huge injustice. Fortunately, he was found innocent. But the chilling effect such actions have on combat troops cannot be underestimated. Conversely, during the summer of 1990, an Israeli navy lieutenant in charge of a patrol craft killed four Palestinian terrorists by machine-gunning them in the water after he'd sunk the rubber boat in which they were trying to infiltrate the Israeli coast. He justified his act by explaining that he didn't know whether or not the Palestinians were concealing hand grenades that might have been used against his craft and his men. The lieutenant was promoted to captain on the spot by the commander of the Israeli Navy. The message sent loud and clear to young Israeli officers was the right one: you will be rewarded for putting the lives of your men above the lives of your enemies.
-- Richard Marcinko, Rogue Warrior

re: #64 Hawk With Claws

You can listen to music while surfing. You can't use two apps at once.

Ok... there is some confusion in the reviews I've read.

re: #59 brookly red

My first huh? was the frame in the film that said they were 30mm cannon and those are not carried by helicopters...

You're correct. The gun on an Apache is 30mm. My mistake.

Here is my bottom line question:
Was there a valid reason for them to have engaged in order to prevent the bodies and what they thought were weapons from being removed by the "rescuers"?
Bodies - I don't see it.
Weapons - OK, I can see that, but still...

re: #62 albusteve
AH-64 Apache

The Apache is armed with a 30-millimeter (1.2 in) M230 Chain Gun carried between the main landing gear, under the aircraft's forward fuselage.

The exact size of the round is not important and shouldn't cause confusion.

re: #67 Killgore Trout

You're correct. The gun on an Apache is 30mm. My mistake.

double checking that

re: #67 Killgore Trout

You're correct. The gun on an Apache is 30mm. My mistake.

I think its a 20... 30 is tank killer like on the A110... 30 is BIG.

Context.

Wasn't this about the time where shit was really starting to hit the fan? The guys doing the shooting clearly thought they were hitting bad guys. Clearly.

Whoever calls these guys murderers needs to watch one of the beheading videos with the sound turned way loud so they can catch the nuances and the screaming. Then maybe they can see the difference.

re: #71 brookly red

It's a 30

re: #62 albusteve

somebody is confused...the 30mm cannon is named the Bushmaster...mounted on the Bradly...wth?

The A-10 Warthog also carries 30mm cannon. But it's used more for tank busting and such.

According to this site, the Apache is capable of being fitted with the 30mm, though:

T

he principal mission of the Apache is the destruction of high-value targets with the HELLFIRE missile. It is also capable of employing a 30MM M230 chain gun and Hydra 70 (2.75 inch) rockets that are lethal against a wide variety of targets.

just to add to my last post, one of the missions for the apache is tank killing.

re: #73 Dreggas

It's a 30

dang that is a big round to be hit with...

re: #70 albusteve

double checking that

found it, and you are correct

re: #68 Spare O'Lake

It's like a crime scene. They don't want people leaving for a few reasons. If a fighter escapes and gets treatment then they can return to battle later. Even if they're dead we want the bodies to know who was killed. We also want intel like their cell phones, ID cards, computers, etc. The information could save lives.

I posted a link to the slashdot version of the story earlier today; of course, they failed to mention the RPGs and the fact people were under fire…

re: #71 brookly red

I think its a 20... 30 is tank killer like on the A110... 30 is BIG.

from wiki...

The Apache is armed with a 30-millimeter (1.2 in) M230 Chain Gun carried between the main landing gear, under the aircraft's forward fuselage.

re: #80 albusteve

from wiki...

The Apache is armed with a 30-millimeter (1.2 in) M230 Chain Gun carried between the main landing gear, under the aircraft's forward fuselage.

yes I was corrected...

re: #76 brookly red

yep. It is. One of my favorite pieces of hardware is the apache. Here's a pic with the full kit it can have

At 9:17 in the video, the spotter on the helicopter notes that 'they are picking up weapons and bodies'.

At worst, this was a tragic error.

Until the full and unedited video is released, we can't be sure what we are watching.

I don't believe that people who have never so much as crossed the street to avoid a suspicious person have any right to sit in judgment of our soldiers in combat.

re: #74 The Sanity Inspector
The Apache has a 30mm, its true, but it's a lower velocity weapon than that found on an A-10. It's smash a BMP, but the AH-64's cannon would not be able to knock out a T-80 or T-90 MBT.

re: #72 Racer X

Whoever calls these guys murderers needs to watch one of the beheading videos with the sound turned way loud so they can catch the nuances and the screaming. Then maybe they can see the difference.

In that case I'll be AFK while I murder my colleague and steal his wallet. After all, something worse is happening to someone, somewhere, so my crime doesn't matter.

re: #73 Dreggas

It's a 30

yes, but with a far smaller load than the Vulcan, obviously

I know I'm on the correct blog, no one is calling the troops murders, nor cheering what could been a fog of war error. Hot Air is all "Kill them all and let God sort out the bad guys "

re: #10 SilentAlfa

this isn't an unfair generalization at all. as we all know, as liberals ever absolutely despise all members of the military.

hahaha i hope this was sarcasm

re: #82 Dreggas

yep. It is. One of my favorite pieces of hardware is the apache. Here's a pic with the full kit it can have

what are those black oil drum like things?

re: #82 Dreggas

yep. It is. One of my favorite pieces of hardware is the apache. Here's a pic with the full kit it can have

Pics like that always remind me of this Pink Floyd photo.

Image: pink_floyd_-_ummagumma_live.jpg

re: #90 brookly red

Rocket pods for the 2.75 inch rockets.

re: #75 Dreggas

just to add to my last post, one of the missions for the apache is tank killing.

with Hellfires, not the 30mm...huge difference between Vulan rounds and those carried by the Apache

re: #10 SilentAlfa

this isn't an unfair generalization at all. as we all know, as liberals ever absolutely despise all members of the military.

I think you forgot your sarc tag there buddy.

I don't dispise my grandfather who was in the 309th bomber wing...

re: #86 Sancho

In that case I'll be AFK while I murder my colleague and steal his wallet. After all, something worse is happening to someone, somewhere, so my crime doesn't matter.

Not sure what you are implying.

Do you think the American troops committed murder here?

re: #82 Dreggas

yep. It is. One of my favorite pieces of hardware is the apache. Here's a pic with the full kit it can have

that'll leave a scar!

re: #61 Walter L. Newton

I thought you couldn't use the Ipad to multitasking programs? If you're surfing, you can't listen to music. Yes, no?

Now I'm confused?

multitasking with third party apps. Apple's infrastructure multitasks, but apps made by developers outside apple won't multitask.

It's a cool device for people who want a slate computer that behaves like an Iphone, but it's so limited as to be worthless for someone like me. I love my ipod touch, tho!

re: #88 avanti

I know I'm on the correct blog, no one is calling the troops murders, nor cheering what could been a fog of war error. Hot Air is all "Kill them all and let God sort out the bad guys "

I didn't check the comments but Ed Morrisey did a decent write up.

I don't see anything clearly out of bounds. I had to watch a couple of times from the comfort of my living room. I see young men doing a job I could never do myself. I vote Monday morning quarterbacking.

re: #90 brookly red

what are those black oil drum like things?

rockets

One Hour till the National Championship game in Indy!
This is awesome!
Go Butler!

re: #100 albusteve

rockets

and the big tan bomb like things?

re: #84 The Sanity Inspector

I don't believe that people who have never so much as crossed the street to avoid a suspicious person have any right to sit in judgment of our soldiers in combat.

So... yeah. First of all, weird assumption that that kind of person are the people that might criticize this.

Secondly, I guess you're against accountability for the military? 'cuz that post sure reads that way.

re: #102 brookly red

and the big tan bomb like things?

beer kegs

re: #102 brookly red

and the big tan bomb like things?

The better to smile at you, my dear.

re: #93 albusteve

Apparently the M230 was effective against tanks

re: #104 albusteve

LOL. External fuel tanks i believe.

re: #104 albusteve

beer kegs

oh good... I am glad to know that the Air Guard can get some beer in here quick if there is an emergency.

re: #106 Dreggas

Apparently the M230 was effective against tanks

My favorite product from Mattel was Hot Wheels

re: #99 compound idaho

I don't see anything clearly out of bounds. I had to watch a couple of times from the comfort of my living room. I see young men doing a job I could never do myself. I vote Monday morning quarterbacking.

Yes, because we civies can't handle the truth!

re: #106 Dreggas

Apparently the M230 was effective against tanks

looks like it...I didn't know they came in the depleted uranium model

Yeah... disturbing video. Its hard for me to analyze given that I have never been to war and have not dealt with its stresses.

It is horrible that innocent people were killed but this is definitely a reminder that we should know that this is the kind of stuff that happens in war and that our country ought to enter into war reluctantly.

re: #110 jamesfirecat

first of all disclaimer: None of us know the full extent, its at least worthy of an investigation, and I'm sure that will happen... by the proper authorities.

To the point; there's a creepy vein in this thread that Civilians have no right of oversight or even of criticism of the military. When we get right down to it, that's police-state thinking.

re: #111 albusteve

looks like it...I didn't know they came in the depleted uranium model

which is one more reason Iran should have reactors...

re: #114 brookly red

which is one more reason Iran should have reactors...

not have, dud.

What a sad and distressing event.

re: #114 brookly red

which is one more reason Iran should have reactors...

I admit, my mind was temporarily blown >>

re: #117 windsagio

I admit, my mind was temporarily blown >>

your easy...

re: #114 brookly red

which is one more reason Iran should have reactors...

I don't know how long it takes to deplete, but it's a long time...whoever thought up the idea of using that stuff as a bullet was a genius

re: #118 brookly red

I think there's a faulty fusebox in there somewhere ;)

re: #4 Charles

Military encryption is exceedingly tough to break;

You're wrong. They used simple passwords like 'progress' and other easily bruteforced stuff. It's like when the news came out that predator feeds where send through the air unencrypted. The military unfortunately has a track record of amateurism on digital stuff.

re: #15 Obdicut

1. The presentation of this shows a clear bias by WikiLeaks.

There is a 40 min unedited video available too. They did juice this up a bit for press I guess but at the same time also provided us with all unfiltered information.

A Hot Air poster thinks the video is a Hollywood produced fake./

"This may be pure conjecture but that video is a fake; it’s a façade and there a few glaring discrepancies with the video from which you can ascertain this. Firstly, the camera wasn’t using the FLIR system that the U.S. military utilizes for it’s thermal imagery (this is an example of what an Apache gunship’s thermal FLIR system would look like. Secondly, based the audio from the template, the “soldiers” from this fake video sound like they’re in an sterile environment… i.e. not in a warzone, either in the helo or on the ground. Moreover, in this video, the pilots refer to the insurgents weapons as “automatic weapons,” attesting to how prevalent the Kalashnikov is and how may different variants there are. Not simply “AK 47s,” which is indicative of colloquial langue. Furthermore, they portray the “soldiers” as sophomoric automatons, who are trigger happy. Conversely, the authentic videos suggest otherwise; it’s antithetical to the one from wikileaks as the pilots are judicious when discerning targets. So the question is what are the aims of the people who posted it: are they simply releasing disinformation or is this a viral video? I’ll assert that this is unambiguously a viral video because this has all the hallmarks of some bullshit Hollywood production. The soldiers sound scripted, the Bradley Fighting vehicles look inauthentic (they look like some Hollywood prop tank), and the soldiers approach the area of operations complacently without setting up a perimeter or taking any other tactical maneuvers. My conclusions is that his is simply and unequivocally a viral video for some bullshit antiwar movie based on this event (why the hell is there a site dedicated to this wikileaks video?). This is the standard m.o. for a viral campaign."

I can't believe our military has an illegal intent.

No matter what we believe, the Iraqi people are just holding their breaths waiting for us to leave. My brother-in-law, a former Iranian Air Force commander, said we would have a better chance of a good relationship if we had left right after we captured Saddam. He said that one of the problems with the Middle East, they can hold a grudge for 3 or 4 generations.

re: #119 albusteve

/killjoy mode on.

Except for the toxic waste problem, and the heavy metal poisoning to soldiers!

I'm as left as you get on this blog, and I do not see a clear crime in what we are shown. After the shooting, this is seen as a screw-up. War is a screw-up. That's why it should be Plan Z.

re: #110 jamesfirecat

You are indeed correct, and I say that with the greatest respect for our service men and women. 1 up ding (is up ding one word or two?)

re: #84 The Sanity Inspector

I don't believe that people who have never so much as crossed the street to avoid a suspicious person have any right to sit in judgment of our soldiers in combat.

///Yes down with this idea of civilian authority over military matters! That's why we insist to run for president you need to have served a full military term so as to be up to the duty of being commander and chief!

re: #113 windsagio

first of all disclaimer: None of us know the full extent, its at least worthy of an investigation, and I'm sure that will happen... by the proper authorities.

To the point; there's a creepy vein in this thread that Civilians have no right of oversight or even of criticism of the military. When we get right down to it, that's police-state thinking.

That's like saying a layman can opine intelligently on a surgical procedure.

I don't think anyone is implying that there ought not be civilian oversight. What we are seeing in here are individuals who seem familiar with military.battle protocol and weaponry.

re: #126 compound idaho

I say one word, portmanteau.

re: #119 albusteve

I don't know how long it takes to deplete, but it's a long time...whoever thought up the idea of using that stuff as a bullet was a genius

well my theory is that the nuclear power industry was pushed into it by greens that wouldn't allow them to store it anywhere... just a theory.

Here is the initial military reaction about this incident btw:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

The American military said in a statement late Thursday that 11 people had been killed: nine insurgents and two civilians. According to the statement, American troops were conducting a raid when they were hit by small-arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades. The American troops called in reinforcements and attack helicopters. In the ensuing fight, the statement said, the two Reuters employees and nine insurgents were killed.”

What ever your opinion is about the video itself it does uncover a clear lie about the incident.

re: #10 SilentAlfa

this isn't an unfair generalization at all. as we all know, as liberals ever absolutely despise all members of the military.

my apologies to everyone who thought this was real and whom i may have offended. upon rereading my comment i've discovered that my hyperbolic sarcasm could easily be confused for an actual opinion from freerepublic.

re: #119 albusteve

I don't know how long it takes to deplete, but it's a long time...whoever thought up the idea of using that stuff as a bullet was a genius

It is "depleted" in the refining/enriching process. It's not an issue of half-life or cooling-off. The characteristics wanted are density and pyrophoric effect.

re: #113 windsagio

first of all disclaimer: None of us know the full extent, its at least worthy of an investigation, and I'm sure that will happen... by the proper authorities.

To the point; there's a creepy vein in this thread that Civilians have no right of oversight or even of criticism of the military. When we get right down to it, that's police-state thinking.

Upding for the truth. Doesn't anyone remember the coup-filled mess of Rome? Or for that matter, South/Central America?

re: #122 avanti

Next: The Truth About the Moon Landing

re: #128 researchok

That line of reasoning (and sorry, being an Apache pilot isn't really comperable to being in surgery, for any number of reasons) is to forgive almost any incident because they obviously know better. Do we need to go down the list of military atrociites and war-crimes?

They're human and under stress, no better or worse than anyone else. A mistake in that kind of situation may be understandable, but its still a mistake, and a deadly one to boot.

re: #124 windsagio

/killjoy mode on.

Except for the toxic waste problem, and the heavy metal poisoning to soldiers!

golly...there's a pretty simple way to not have that stuff laying around spent, isn't there...why in the world didn't those Irais just kill Saddam and his Bathist pals?

re: #101 HoosierHoops

One Hour till the National Championship game in Indy!
This is awesome!
Go Butler!

Have fun, Hoops!

re: #111 albusteve

looks like it...I didn't know they came in the depleted uranium model

Me neither.

re: #137 albusteve

Now now.

Especially in this era there are some serious issues with DPU ammunition.

Specifically we don't really need it. We're not fighting people in advanced body armor, or trying to destroy tanks.

Uranium is extremely poisonous, and these things have consequences.

re: #133 Decatur Deb

It is "depleted" in the refining/enriching process. It's not an issue of half-life or cooling-off. The characteristics wanted are density and pyrophoric effect.

I thought it was dead fuel rods...thanks for that

re: #129 windsagio

What? Apparently I need more than one word.

re: #132 SilentAlfa

If you're going to be sarcastic, use a / after your post, until the Lizards get to know you! Like this.

/
except I mean it to be helpful.

re: #136 windsagio

That line of reasoning (and sorry, being an Apache pilot isn't really comperable to being in surgery, for any number of reasons) is to forgive almost any incident because they obviously know better. Do we need to go down the list of military atrociites and war-crimes?

They're human and under stress, no better or worse than anyone else. A mistake in that kind of situation may be understandable, but its still a mistake, and a deadly one to boot.

I agree. My point was and is- that we just don't have all the information we need to understand what happened.

I took issue with idea that there is a 'creepy vein' in this thread that Civilians have no right of oversight or even of criticism of the military. When we get right down to it, that's police-state thinking'.

I don't detect that at all.

re: #140 windsagio

Now now.

Especially in this era there are some serious issues with DPU ammunition.

Specifically we don't really need it. We're not fighting people in advanced body armor, or trying to destroy tanks.

Uranium is extremely poisonous, and these things have consequences.

lecture someone else

re: #142 compound idaho

Sorry sorry, a Portmanteau is a nelogism coming from combining 2 old words into 1 new word. The term originated in Through the Looking Glass

re: #144 researchok

I agree. My point was and is- that we just don't have all the information we need to understand what happened.

I took issue with idea that there is a 'creepy vein' in this thread that Civilians have no right of oversight or even of criticism of the military. When we get right down to it, that's police-state thinking'.

I don't detect that at all.

some people make stuff up...usually the same few

re: #145 albusteve

lecture someone else

Yes because if there's one thing LGF is known for its that the people here have no interest in learning anything new!

re: #103 windsagio

So... yeah. First of all, weird assumption that that kind of person are the people that might criticize this.

Secondly, I guess you're against accountability for the military? 'cuz that post sure reads that way.

If the military justice system itself decides to proceed against these soldiers, that will be fair enough for me. Trying them in the left-o-sphere won't.

re: #145 albusteve

lecture someone else

Yeah! Why don't we just irradiate a good chunk of the world, while we're at it?

Seriously, get off these fucking threads and do something worthwhile with your life. Each post you're involved with is instigated, by you, into a flame war.

re: #138 Floral Giraffe

Have fun, Hoops!

The newest reports...The price of a ticket tonight to see the finals is around 1600 for a nice center court.. The tickets from between 500-600 dollars in the 600 level are selling on the street right now on the news for 50 bucks..
Did you read where I met Larry Bird and Dennis Miller last night at Conseco?
Dennis is a short dude..With his Entourage around him...
I made Larry Smile last night..I was a little smart ass and made him grin..
Larry is a tall dude
The legend

re: #148 jamesfirecat

Yes because if there's one thing LGF is known for its that the people here have no interest in learning anything new!

and you are just as presumptuous

re: #150 MisterCookie

lol don't let him get to you, he's just the resident crank :P By engaging like that you're giving him what he wants.

PS: The problem isn't radiation, but rather heavy metal poisoning. /random factoid!

How much of this "murder" video is driven by the loss of the Reuters associates? You run with the bulls you are apt to get gored.

2007, the height of the offensive. This is obviously one vignette cut from a much larger operation.

Defame away. This is war. Same as it ever was.

re: #150 MisterCookie

Nice straw man you just set.

re: #154 The Shadow Do

How much of this "murder" video is driven by the loss of the Reuters associates? You run with the bulls you are apt to get gored.

2007, the height of the offensive. This is obviously one vignette cut from a much larger operation.

Defame away. This is war. Same as it ever was.

And some leftists will lie the same old way.

re: #150 MisterCookie

Yeah! Why don't we just irradiate a good chunk of the world, while we're at it?

Seriously, get off these fucking threads and do something worthwhile with your life. Each post you're involved with is instigated, by you, into a flame war.

Lighten up. Albusteve is an integral part of LGF and she's stand up to boot.

re: #4 Charles

Note that Wikileaks is claiming that they had to break the military encryption of this video -- which seems very odd to me. Military encryption is exceedingly tough to break; if Wikileaks has a way to do it, they're ahead of most governments in the world.

There are lots of levels of "military encryption" and multiple levels of security clearances under which certain types may be collected. They could just be talking about the standard vendor video encryption on the data source, don't think we have more information at this point.

re: #153 windsagio

lol don't let him get to you, he's just the resident crank :P By engaging like that you're giving him what he wants.

PS: The problem isn't radiation, but rather heavy metal poisoning. /random factoid!

Heavy metal poisoning sounds like the headline you would see after someone slips an entire rock band arsenic...

re: #150 MisterCookie

Yeah! Why don't we just irradiate a good chunk of the world, while we're at it?

Seriously, get off these fucking threads and do something worthwhile with your life. Each post you're involved with is instigated, by you, into a flame war.

are you a lecture troll?...they said there was such a thing...use your scroll wheel

re: #121 jantjepietje

You're wrong.

No, I am not wrong. Military-grade encryption is acknowledged by all experts to be the strongest form of encryption in use today.

They used simple passwords like 'progress' and other easily bruteforced stuff.

Unless you know more about this incident than has been revealed publicly, you're just speculating. Sure, a weak passphrase will render the strongest encryption worthless, but you're just imagining that's the case here.

re: #157 researchok

She!!!

re: #147 albusteve

some people make stuff up...usually the same few

OK folks - here's some released info from Centcom - you smarties can review and report back!

First, statement from TPM:

Late Update: A spokesman for the military sends along this statement:

"We are aware that several media outlets are airing footage depicting gunfire from a U.S. helicopter and claiming that this footage was recorded during an incident in 2007 in which two Reuters reporters were killed. At this time, we are working to verify the source of the video, its veracity, and when or where it was recorded. The incident presumably associated with this video was investigated in 2007, and the releasable portions of that investigation are available at the following URL."

Here's the Centcom links:
CENTCOM FOI RELEASES

re: #157 researchok

Lighten up. Albusteve is an integral part of LGF and she's stand up to boot.

Yes indeed! And her bark is worse than her bite, so just relax.

re: #149 The Sanity Inspector

To some degree we have to trust the military, altho' you have to say, they occasionally will indulge in a coverup (ala My Lai).

re: #162 prairiefire

She!!!

makes my mascara run

Bad things happen in war, particularly a war where the enemy can be anyone...a well trained 22 year old, an old woman in a burka, a child told to deliver a package, a poor brainwashed teen with visions of 72 virgins...

re: #153 windsagio

lol don't let him get to you, he's just the resident crank :P By engaging like that you're giving him what he wants.

PS: The problem isn't radiation, but rather heavy metal poisoning. /random factoid!

I have an old camera lens that is about as radioactive as its weight in DU. The danger is poisoning, and radioactive effects if you ingest DU oxide or dust , as when cleaning up an armored hull that has burned after being hit.

re: #151 HoosierHoops

No, I missed it, but will go look!
Good luck to your team!

re: #165 windsagio

To some degree we have to trust the military, altho' you have to say, they occasionally will indulge in a coverup (ala My Lai).

Wasn't it the great Ronald Regan who said "Trust... but verify"?

re: #10 SilentAlfa

STFU

re: #157 researchok

Lighten up. Albusteve is an integral part of LGF and she's stand up to boot.

It's not easy to "lighten up" when it's obvious the person is under assault by someone who is deliberately trying to cause upset.

re: #151 HoosierHoops

The newest reports...The price of a ticket tonight to see the finals is around 1600 for a nice center court.. The tickets from between 500-600 dollars in the 600 level are selling on the street right now on the news for 50 bucks..
Did you read where I met Larry Bird and Dennis Miller last night at Conseco?
Dennis is a short dude..With his Entourage around him...
I made Larry Smile last night..I was a little smart ass and made him grin..
Larry is a tall dude
The legend

Hello lizards,
Overnight rain in CA. Clear and lovely now.

HH, The Bird and Magic. I'll never forget.

re: #170 jamesfirecat

yeah. My point is that forced exposure is often a good thing, and anyone who does a variant of the 'how dare you at home judge our brave men and women bla bla bla' thing risk empowering bad behavior.

Emotional reactions are bad on either side.

re: #4 Charles

They didn't encrypt the video back in 2007 that I'm aware of, not even for drone feeds (see recent controversy over the Taliban in Pakistan watching our drone feeds, etc.)

Out, enjoy the game.

re: #171 wozzablog

STFU

I thought he was being sarcastic. If he meant that, then he's trolling.

OT: Man these Washington Nationals fans did NOT like when the President pulled out and put on his White Sox cap. That got him some boos to which he responded with a resounding hat wave.

re: #171 wozzablog

Wozza, read SilentAlfa's #132

re: #172 Locker

It's not easy to "lighten up" when it's obvious the person is under assault by someone who is deliberately trying to cause upset.

Agreed.

I don't always agree with everyone here (I'm more center right) but somehow I manage to have civil exchanges. It's not that hard. Besides, that's one of things I like best about this place. Smart people make for smart conversation.

re: #178 Locker

At risk of sounding racist, I love his sass >>

"Yeti" discovered in China

re: #15 Obdicut

If they are in an area hunting for a specific terrorist and have ground troops enroute they might fire at sympathizers trying to remove the bodies and weapons. They need those for intel. It's standard Taliban and AQ policy to remove all bodies & weps pronto, even after a drone strike. It's not usually civvies doing the removing either.

re: #175 Thanos

They didn't encrypt the video back in 2007 that I'm aware of, not even for drone feeds (see recent controversy over the Taliban in Pakistan watching our drone feeds, etc.)

That may be, but the head of Wikileaks stated that they had to "break military encryption" on this video -- that's why I'm discussing it.

It seems like an odd thing to say. If the file really was encrypted by military standards, I seriously doubt that Wikileaks would have been able to break it.

re: #181 windsagio

At risk of sounding racist, I love his sass >>

///In my book it's only racist to mention loving someone's sass if they are both black and female.

re: #175 Thanos

They didn't encrypt the video back in 2007 that I'm aware of, not even for drone feeds (see recent controversy over the Taliban in Pakistan watching our drone feeds, etc.)

Didn't they break into the drone feeds with a $75 OTC software package?

re: #161 Charles

Unless you know more about this incident than has been revealed publicly, you're just speculating. Sure, a weak passphrase will render the strongest encryption worthless, but you're just imagining that's the case here.

Even with a password... And not being a domain member with 802.1x encryption is problematic to say the least to government hacking...
You just don't crack a government high security site with a password..Good luck with that suicide mission...Once you pass the switches you are tagged with a MAC address in the Router tables..
Government hacking isn't play school

re: #179 prairiefire

Wozza, read SilentAlfa's #132

Turns out he didn't mean it. Good.

re: #181 windsagio

Don't get me started...I'll catch hell for getting all crushy. I'm still thinking of SFZ's flag tattoo idea.

re: #184 Charles

I agree, but I doubt it was encrypted to begin with.

It seems like an odd thing to say. If the file really was encrypted by military standards, I seriously doubt that Wikileaks would have been able to break it.

If by "break" they mean brute-force with a dictionary attack, then they're telling the truth. If by "break" they meant actually finding a flaw in their encryption (I think the military uses a strong variant of AES, which has proved nearly invulnerable to cryptanalysis) then they're full of shit.

re: #163 Stanley Sea

Thanks. From Page 3 of this report explains why they fired on the van. There was a similar car in the area, picking up and dropping off fighters. It may or may not have been the same car but that's what was going on in the area.

TV has my attention now.
See ya'll later.
Go Butler.

re: #165 windsagio

To some degree we have to trust the military, altho' you have to say, they occasionally will indulge in a coverup (ala My Lai).

Do you believe there has been a cover up of this action?

re: #163 Stanley Sea

I love dragging pieces of info over here for smart lizards to dissect. It's fun, isn't it?

The "encryption break" sounds like a cover story to protect their source who provided them with the video and whatever password was needed.

re: #172 Locker

It's not easy to "lighten up" when it's obvious the person is under assault by someone who is deliberately trying to cause upset.

Meh. If Monseigneur Cookie is going to post about once per month on average, he can lighten up. There's nothing wrong with infrequent posting...but infrequent posters who freak out puzzle me.

re: #196 Bagua

The "encryption break" sounds like a cover story to protect their source who provided them with the video and whatever password was needed.

Well that will dig them a hole!

What's wrong with 'protected sources'?

Think about it a second: gun camera footage has been all over the youtubes and internets for the length of the war, why would this be different and encrypted? It just doesn't make sense.

I can also see why the troops were cleared by the military after this incident -- they were in a hot zone where the enemy was engaging our soldiers and they were clearly traveling with armed men.

There's a fellow with the Asia Times who embeds with the Taliban on occasion, I'm not going to shed a tear if he gets it in an attack by our guys, just as none of the Taliban would cry if Yon or Roggio got taken out.

re: #146 windsagio

You can learn so much on this site.

re: #194 The Shadow Do

I don't know, altho there was reference above to the report saying they were fired upon, which the video would belie.

Its more of an appeal for caution (or an appeal against blind trust) than anything else. Just like the Vatican, the military sometimes becomes more concerned with protecting their own than with administering justice, and its something we have to be wary of.

re: #178 Locker

OT: Man these Washington Nationals fans did NOT like when the President pulled out and put on his White Sox cap. That got him some boos to which he responded with a resounding hat wave.

I thought that was awesome, by the way. Now if he could just learn to throw/

re: #199 Thanos

Think about it a second: gun camera footage has been all over the youtubes and internets for the length of the war, why would this be different and encrypted? It just doesn't make sense.

I can also see why the troops were cleared by the military after this incident -- they were in a hot zone where the enemy was engaging our soldiers and they were clearly traveling with armed men.

There's a fellow with the Asia Times who embeds with the Taliban on occasion, I'm not going to shed a tear if he gets it in an attack by our guys, just as none of the Taliban would cry if Yon or Roggio got taken out.

Is all gun camera footage classified? Does the military ever release that footage?

re: #186 researchok

Didn't they break into the drone feeds with a $75 OTC software package?

Drone feeds are not encrypted. All you need is simple software. Not a big deal - so they can watch drone feeds live time.

re: #197 Aceofwhat?

infrequent posters are more likely to freak out, imo. They're not used to the schtick yet :P

re: #202 Aceofwhat?

I thought that was awesome, by the way. Now if he could just learn to throw/

I think throwing is one of the things he wished he would have inherited.

re: #195 prairiefire

I love dragging pieces of info over here for smart lizards to dissect. It's fun, isn't it?

Yeah, they have the patience & smarts, I don't.

I do get a kick of finding good info from that proggy site Talking Points Memo though. I dare anyone to fact check them.

re: #203 researchok

I imagine it carries some level of classification for some period after the engagement, but I don't know the rules on that so I'm not going to speculate.

re: #207 Stanley Sea

Yes, TPm is good.

re: #95 Racer X

Not sure what you are implying.

Do you think the American troops committed murder here?

I didn't imply anything. I pointed out the silliness of arguing that killing human beings doesn't warrant ethical or legal consideration so long as different human beings, anywhere at all, are being killed more brutally.

I didn't have time for the murder, anyway. Instead, I'm going to embezzle a million dollars from my employers, which shouldn't be an issue at all because someone out there is embezzling TWO million dollars.

That's your queue to ask if I think the troops are embezzling money in this video.

Butler versus Duke (my team!).

And there are people who will watch dancing with the stars.

The country is going to hell.

re: #201 windsagio

I don't know, altho there was reference above to the report saying they were fired upon, which the video would belie.

Its more of an appeal for caution (or an appeal against blind trust) than anything else. Just like the Vatican, the military sometimes becomes more concerned with protecting their own than with administering justice, and its something we have to be wary of.

The modern military has taken the lessons of Vietnam deeply to heart. Some would argue they have over-reacted.

re: #177 Dark_Falcon

I react in a knee jerk fashion whenever that is said without a sarc tag.

re: #211 researchok

Butler versus Duke (my team!).

And there are people who will watch dancing with the stars.

The country is going to hell.

Butler!
/old Hoosier roots showing tonight.

That should be "cue", of course.

re: #212 The Shadow Do

I wouldn't.

Its probably dangerous to start discussing more recent potential cases tho', its bound to be controversial :D

re: #178 Locker

OT: Man these Washington Nationals fans did NOT like when the President pulled out and put on his White Sox cap. That got him some boos to which he responded with a resounding hat wave.

you're very first post to me was some punk ass lame name calling, you were piling on for no good reason...look at your own record and you will see for yourself that you can be less than civil...if you want to dish it out, be prepared to take it...and notice I generally don't address you, maybe you can figure out why

re: #201 windsagio

I don't know, altho there was reference above to the report saying they were fired upon, which the video would belie.

I thought I heard reference in the vid to them or someone else besides them "taking fire"

re: #210 Sancho

Don't insult RacerX, noob.

re: #211 researchok

Butler versus Duke (my team!).

And there are people who will watch dancing with the stars.

The country is going to hell.

Go Butler!
/Halftime could be hell or heaven

Everyone knows the US is never and has never been involved in any war crimes.

Oh, wait. Dresden.

And My Lai.

And...?

Never mind. Read sentence no. 1 until it is graven forever in your memory.

re: #219 Dark_Falcon

don't be tribalist, either :P

re: #203 researchok

Is all gun camera footage classified? Does the military ever release that footage?

"Classified" can mean as little as "For Official Use Only", which is easily obtained by a valid Freedom of Information Act request. The information on any tape could inspire higher levels, depending on what it shows. It's generally easy to get something over-classified, hard to make it unclassified.

I think the whole point isn't "who was right or wrong." I think the whole point is that innocent people died during a war that was promised by the Bush administration to be short and relatively bloodless. Seeing this video reminds me that we have no business being there. WMDs were never found, religious fanatics commit mass murder, and accidental shootings happen. This sucks for them, and those on the right who started frothing at the mouth to go to war, and who still froth at the mouth 7 years later ought to weigh the pros and cons of this decision. Had everyone done that from the beginning there wouldn't be so many pointlessly lost lives.

re: #220 HoosierHoops

Go Butler!
/Halftime could be hell or heaven

It's gonna be Duke... naturally.

Heard about the Coach K offer?

re: #206 researchok

I think throwing is one of the things he wished he would have inherited.

Least he got it over the plate this time around rather than having it almost bounce off the dirt.

Course it went WAY over the plate this time...

You know what I think it's time for a suitable Daily Show clip!

re: #212 The Shadow Do

The modern military has taken the lessons of Vietnam deeply to heart. Some would argue they have over-reacted.

I would agree...the ROE got a lot of good boys killed in Iraq I imagine, and made it look like a failure...ease up the rules, pour in some troops, call it a surge and presto...success

WikiLeaks obtained and decrypted the video you are about to see.

This would be accurate if they obtained both the video and the password. They don’t say that they hacked/broke the encryption, just that they “decrypted” it.

re: #224 samuraishake

I think the whole point isn't "who was right or wrong." I think the whole point is that innocent people died during a war that was promised by the Bush administration to be short and relatively bloodless. Seeing this video reminds me that we have no business being there. WMDs were never found, religious fanatics commit mass murder, and accidental shootings happen. This sucks for them, and those on the right who started frothing at the mouth to go to war, and who still froth at the mouth 7 years later ought to weigh the pros and cons of this decision. Had everyone done that from the beginning there wouldn't be so many pointlessly lost lives.

Well, then tell the current administration, because Bush can't do anything about it anymore...

re: #224 samuraishake

- for bringing up Bush.

re: #221 Cato the Elder

Everyone knows the US is never and has never been involved in any war crimes.

Oh, wait. Dresden.

And My Lai.

And...?

Never mind. Read sentence no. 1 until it is graven forever in your memory.

Take your Dresden and shove it, Cato. It was all out war and you know it.

re: #218 Thanos

There were ground troops in the area pinned down by small arms and RPG fire. There was another engagement a few blocks away a little after this video of another group of 10-15 armed guys.

re: #231 The Shadow Do

Take your Dresden and shove it, Cato. It was all out war and you know it.

WTF

re: #225 researchok

It's gonna be Duke... naturally.

Heard about the Coach K offer?

He turned it down..Good on him...
about 12 minutes to tip off

re: #231 The Shadow Do

That's... terrible.

Like seriously awful.

re: #171 wozzablog

Revoked, and asked to be stricken from the record.

re: #221 Cato the Elder

Everyone knows the US is never and has never been involved in any war crimes.

Oh, wait. Dresden.

And My Lai.

And...?

Never mind. Read sentence no. 1 until it is graven forever in your memory.

Good point. I had forgotten that the Nazi's were just innocent photographers and and their rescuers.

re: #221 Cato the Elder

Everyone knows the US is never and has never been involved in any war crimes.

Oh, wait. Dresden.

And My Lai.

And...?

Never mind. Read sentence no. 1 until it is graven forever in your memory.

Tokyo

re: #187 HoosierHoops

Even with a password... And not being a domain member with 802.1x encryption is problematic to say the least to government hacking...
You just don't crack a government high security site with a password..Good luck with that suicide mission...Once you pass the switches you are tagged with a MAC address in the Router tables..
Government hacking isn't play school

I knew that!
///

re: #230 windsagio

- for bringing up Bush.

Wow... we dinged and agreed for once... strange days.

re: #233 Varek Raith

WTF

WTF to your WTF. It was what it was. Deal with it.

re: #234 HoosierHoops

He turned it down..Good on him...
about 12 minutes to tip off

I am so ready...

As for Coach K, that was really classy of him, if for no other reason than not to take attention away from his team.

re: #210 Sancho

That's your queue to ask if I think the troops are embezzling money in this video.

you mean "cue"? or are we waiting in line?

re: #224 samuraishake

You mean that it's all Bush's fault?

re: #237 Bagua

Good point. I had forgotten that the Nazi's were just innocent photographers and and their rescuers.

At the risk of getting dragged into this I think its worth saying that even during World War Two

German != Nazi...

re: #221 Cato the Elder

Everyone knows the US is never and has never been involved in any war crimes.

Oh, wait. Dresden.

And My Lai.

And...?

Never mind. Read sentence no. 1 until it is graven forever in your memory.

Dresden was not a war crime. My Lai clearly was, but it was repudiated by America quite thoroughly and not even Daniel Ellesburg thought it was typical of America in Veitnam.

re: #240 Walter L. Newton

I get to live in a state where I still see "Bush/Cheney '04" bumper stickers everywhere. My bad for acknowledging that he screwed up. Let me just pull out my revisionist history text book and delete him.

re: #240 Walter L. Newton

That conversation is way done, if anything bringing up that kind of a rant only serves to discredit the lefties on here.

(And note I'm not saying ANYTHING about whether I think he's right or not :P)

re: #233 Varek Raith

WTF

It's just one of those nights.

re: #237 Bagua

Good point. I had forgotten that the Nazi's were just innocent photographers and and their rescuers.

Dresden was a retaliation for the bombing of Coventry.

re: #4 Charles

It'd be nice to hear them expound on what they mean by breaking USDOD encryption. The geek in me thinks that is a bunch of BS.

re: #241 The Shadow Do

WTF to your WTF. It was what it was. Deal with it.

I think the debate is worthwhile myself...I'm pretty much on the fence...we were flat out slaughtering civilians tho...that is beyond doubt

re: #247 samuraishake

You are flaying a dead horse that was dust long agone. I'm with Walter, tell it to Obama if you are so concerned about us being at war. He seems to be doing a pretty good job at prosecuting both wars right now in my book.

I suppose fire bombing Japanese cities, then bombing the first responders is just fine and dandy.

We should be better than that.

re: #161 Charles

No, I am not wrong. Military-grade encryption is acknowledged by all experts to be the strongest form of encryption in use today.

Yes I'm sorry I should have written that down differently. What I meant to respond to was your implied statement that 'military stuff = good protected' As with the predator video feed disaster shows this is often not the case. Heck The American nuclear launch codes where OOO for 16 years

Unless you know more about this incident than has been revealed publicly, you're just speculating. Sure, a weak passphrase will render the strongest encryption worthless, but you're just imagining that's the case here.

Speculating yes but on good grounds because it is exactly what happened in their earlier crack of pentagon documents regarding Afghanistan.

re: #242 researchok

I am so ready...

As for Coach K, that was really classy of him, if for no other reason than not to take attention away from his team.

What's the deal with all the rich Duke kids camping out downtown?
Mommy and Daddy bought me my 2000 dollar ticket cause they love me..
What is up with Duke rich kids? They are on the news here...Damn..You folks got some serious cash..
Tip off! Good Luck Bro!

re: #253 Thanos

You are flaying a dead horse that was dust long agone. I'm with Walter, tell it to Obama if you are so concerned about us being at war. He seems to be doing a pretty good job at prosecuting both wars right now in my book.

Prosecuting two wars and taking credit fir the successes!

re: #210 Sancho

I didn't imply anything. I pointed out the silliness of arguing that killing human beings doesn't warrant ethical or legal consideration so long as different human beings, anywhere at all, are being killed more brutally.

I didn't have time for the murder, anyway. Instead, I'm going to embezzle a million dollars from my employers, which shouldn't be an issue at all because someone out there is embezzling TWO million dollars.

That's your queue to ask if I think the troops are embezzling money in this video.

I think you have reading comprehension issues. I never said anything about "killing human beings doesn't warrant ethical or legal consideration." I'm not arguing morale equivalency either.

re: #72 Racer X

Context.

Wasn't this about the time where shit was really starting to hit the fan? The guys doing the shooting clearly thought they were hitting bad guys. Clearly.

Whoever calls these guys murderers needs to watch one of the beheading videos with the sound turned way loud so they can catch the nuances and the screaming. Then maybe they can see the difference.