Va. Governor McDonnell: Slavery Wasn’t ‘Significant’ Enough to Mention

US News • Views: 3,387

Facing a storm of criticism, even from the newspaper that endorsed him for Governor, Virginia Republican Bob McDonnell told the Washington Post today that the reason why he didn’t mention slavery in his proclamation of “Confederate History Month” was because he doesn’t consider it a significant aspect of the Civil War.

Wow.

McDonnell said he did not include a reference to slavery because “there were any number of aspects to that conflict between the states. Obviously, it involved slavery. It involved other issues. But I focused on the ones I thought were most significant for Virginia.”

McDonnell also said the reason for his declaration was to “promote tourism.”

McDonnell said Tuesday that the move was designed to promote tourism in the state, which next year will mark the 150th anniversary of the start of the war.

Apparently he’s not too interested in promoting tourism by African Americans.

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369 comments
1 jamesfirecat  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:18:11am

Well I suppose he could be trying to get crazy neo confeds from all over the South to come visit.

Virginia is for lovers, of secession….

2 Gus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:18:29am

Disgusting.

3 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:19:18am

F in history dude, F. 0 points.

4 Political Atheist  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:19:58am

The new NeoCons. As in NeoConFEDERATE. There to make the old NeoCons look good by comparison.

5 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:20:27am

I’d like to note again that the sacrifices that the proclamation asks us to honor go to categories that blacks were excluded from: Leaders, soldiers, and citizens.

The proclamation literally only recognizes the sacrifices of whites in the Confederacy.

6 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:20:39am

re: #4 Rightwingconspirator

Yeah they’ve decided invading foreign countries is just too much of a hassle, they just want to invade the north instead.

7 Cato the Elder  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:21:05am

He’s not too interested in tourism from Marylanders like me, either.

8 3eff Jeff  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:21:14am

Ok, slavery wasn’t a significant part of the Union cause at the start of the war. However, there had already been huge political battles over it between north and south before the war (compromise of 1850, anyone?). Also, the Emancipation Proclamation kept England and France from recognizing the CSA, which kept the CSA isolated, and allowed the Union to bludgeon it with superior numbers and production.

Yeah. Slavery wasn’t important at all.
/

9 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:22:31am

re: #8 3eff Jeff

It was still a very important part of the Southern cause at the start of the war, even if the Union did not set out to immediately end slavery. Virginia’s secession declaration explicitly refers to slave-holding states.

I know what you were getting at, but I wanted to stress that.

10 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:23:05am

Slavery is kind of like pain, it would seem to me.

It’s really important if you’re the one enduring it. Really…significant.

Some people can have sympathy for other sufferers.

Others seem to be able to simply ignore the suffering of others.

11 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:23:39am

re: #9 Obdicut

Well if they did mention slavery as something “important” to Virginia at the time then they’d have to mention that it was important to PRESERVE their right to own as many black people as they could.

12 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:23:41am

Wow, the wingnut monkeys are really flinging their poo at me on Twitter today. Just fired up Tweedeck and they’re losing their shit.

13 3eff Jeff  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:24:11am

re: #9 Obdicut

It was still a very important part of the Southern cause at the start of the war, even if the Union did not set out to immediately end slavery. Virginia’s secession declaration explicitly refers to slave-holding states.

I know what you were getting at, but I wanted to stress that.

Exactly. I sort-of implied that by name-dropping the Compromise of 1850, but you are right, it is important to emphasize the South’s cause being about slavery from the beginning.

14 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:24:14am

re: #12 Charles

That implies that they HAVEN’T ALREADY LOST IT!

15 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:24:51am

re: #12 Charles

I think the timing of the picture you posted and this thing from McDonnell couldn’t be better. It really lays it out.

The Birchers are back, and look what they’ve brought with them.

16 3eff Jeff  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:25:39am

re: #14 Dreggas

That implies that they HAVEN’T ALREADY LOST IT!

I keep being surprised at just how much the wingnuts have.

17 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:25:59am

re: #5 Obdicut

Huh. Someone named ‘raisin bran’ gave my post a downding.

I generally don’t police my karma, but I’m genuinely interested:

What about my post #5 did you find objectionable, Raisin Bran?

18 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:26:13am

re: #13 3eff Jeff

It was also important because it was one way the south maintained power against the northern, more populous states if I remember correctly. Since they counted slaves as 3/5’s of a person when doing the census and figuring out representation the less populous south (that is population of citizens) used the slave count to their advantage when it came to nat’l government. Then again it’s been years since that lesson in history class and my CRS could be acting up.

19 badger1970  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:26:13am

The sound of the GOP condemning this is almost deafening. //

20 iceweasel  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:26:35am

Yglesias has some good points on this (bolding in original):

Two points on this. One is that in 1860 about 60 percent of the human beings in Virginia were slaves and thus neither leaders nor soldiers nor citizens of the Confederacy. Why should Virginians neglect to think of them? Surely slavery was a significant part of the conflict for the 30 percent of Virginians who were slaves and did, in fact, welcome the advancing Union soldiers as liberators. Allow me to quote from Jay Winik’s April 1865:

As white Richmond retreated behind shutters and blinds, black Richmond spontaneously took to the streets. From the moment Union troops entered the city – ‘Richmond at last!’ Black Union cavalrymen shouted – crowds, the skilled and the unskilled, household servants and household cooks, rented maids and hired millworkers, jammed the sidewalks to catch a glimpse of the spectacle. No longer enslaved, they thrust out their hands to be shaken or presented the soldiers with offerings: gifts of fruit, flowers, even jugs of whiskey. Federal officers riding alongside promptly reached for the liquor bottles and smashed them with their swords. But the crowd was undaunted. Just a day earlier, they had been prohibited from smoking, publicly swearing, carrying canes, purchasing weapons, or procuring ‘ardent spirits.’ Yet now, to the sounds of ‘John Brown’s Body,’ they jubilantly waved makeshift rag banners; to the tune of the ‘Battle Hymn of the Republic,’ they enthusiastically hugged and kissed the bluecoats.

Slavery obviously seemed significant to the slaves. And, of course, it was significant to the architects of rebellion as well. Here’s the first paragraph of Virginia’s ordinance of secession:

The people of Virginia in their ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, adopted by them in convention on the twenty-fifth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, having declared that the powers granted under said Constitition were derived from the people of the United States and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression, and the Federal Government having perverted said powers not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern slave-holding States:

And there you go. Of course a long and bloody war has a number of aspects, but this was primarily a conflict around the issue of slavery.

21 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:27:02am

re: #16 3eff Jeff


Well when they are full of it to the point of practically being made of it.

22 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:27:06am

re: #18 Dreggas

No, you got it right. Good point.

23 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:27:12am

re: #12 Charles

Wow, the wingnut monkeys are really flinging their poo at me on Twitter today. Just fired up Tweedeck and they’re losing their shit.

I’m still wondering why mixing races was Communist.

I thought Communism was about state control of resources. (And people. And media. And people. And freedoms, etc.)

(Ooh, ooh, wait for it…if Communism as about restricting personal freedoms and rights, wouldn’t telling someone they couldn’t marry a person of the opposite race be more Communist than letting them pick their own spouse?)

24 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:27:22am

re: #17 Obdicut

Huh. Someone named ‘raisin bran’ gave my post a downding.

I generally don’t police my karma, but I’m genuinely interested:

What about my post #5 did you find objectionable, Raisin Bran?

I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting…

25 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:28:18am

DAMN!

This guy just crossed the line into utter scum. OK let’s make these other issues that the confederacy fought for clear:

States rights was the “right” of southern states to brutally enslave and degrade other human beings.

The whole Tariff thing was to protect the profits generated by slave labor.

The Western, free or slave debate for new states was to ensure the continuing political power of the slave owning class.

The fear of slave retaliations, and worse in the eyes of good white southerners, everywhere racial intermixing was of course directly the result of having slaves that were considered sub-human in the first place.

This is basic and obvious history.

These utter bastards who would re-write it, so as to open old wounds and spread racism are beyond repugnant.

26 3eff Jeff  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:28:53am

re: #18 Dreggas

It was also important because it was one way the south maintained power against the northern, more populous states if I remember correctly. Since they counted slaves as 3/5’s of a person when doing the census and figuring out representation the less populous south (that is population of citizens) used the slave count to their advantage when it came to nat’l government. Then again it’s been years since that lesson in history class and my CRS could be acting up.

That was one of the ugly parts of the original US Constitution. IIRC, the South was something like one third black, so that would be a significant jump to their population, and census numbers are important. (Unless your name is Bachmann and you’re trying to ace yourself out of a job…)

27 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:29:19am

re: #23 EmmmieG

I should probably acknowledge at this point that original Communism was economic. The other crap was just because people didn’t want to live under Communism, so they had to force them to it.

28 reine.de.tout  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:29:35am

Cato - if you’re here rather than downstairs:


I think the book size is like, 6x8 or close to it.

For you, because you are so special - you get as many lines as you want or need!

And thank you.

29 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:29:40am

re: #12 Charles

Wow, the wingnut monkeys are really flinging their poo at me on Twitter today. Just fired up Tweedeck and they’re losing their shit.

Yeah well fuck them. Anyone who can support belittling the horrors of slavery as an extension of their own racial and political hatred and something appropriate for modern politics is scum.

30 albusteve  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:29:52am

no slavery, no prosperity…no fiefdoms and no Blues…southern slave holders must have been scared witless of the prospect of abolition…interesting part of our history from post Civil War til the Civil Rights laws….too bad they don’t teach much of it in school

31 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:29:56am

re: #23 EmmmieG

I’m still wondering why mixing races was Communist.

This is pure John Birch Society propaganda. Notice that there’s a sign in there that says “Stop the race mixing march of the Antichrist.” This is also from the JBS.

Where’s the John Birch Society today? Organizing tea parties, and sponsoring the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC).

32 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:30:31am

As a son of the south, I’d just like to shout out to my southern brothers and sisters:

GET THE FUCK OVER IT. THE WAR IS DONE, THE CONFEDERACY LOST. SHUT THE FUCK UP ALREADY.

And to my American brothers and sisters who think The South is now and has always been a monolith, it just ain’t that simple. Plenty of southerners opposed secession and many enlisted and fought in the Union. 14 of my Great-Grandfathers Tennessee cousins fought in the Civil War, 7 for the Confederacy and 7 for the Union, 1 for both sides.

Life is complicated.

33 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:30:36am

re: #23 EmmmieG

Communism was reduced, in the day (and still to this day) as everyone doing the same thing and being made to do the same thing. So if the government made a law forcing the recognition of de-segregation it removed (in their minds) the right of individual states to continue segregation, thus communism in its now distorted form.

34 SpaceJesus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:31:06am

I’d go to Virginia now, if just to kick this guy in the balls

35 iceweasel  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:31:09am

Benen has some good stuff over at Washington Monthly too:

McDonnell apparently went out of his way to make his declaration as insulting as possible. Virginia’s last two governors — Democrats Mark Warner and Tim Kaine — scrapped the practice of annual Confederate resolutions altogether, while Virginia’s last Republican governor, Jim Gilmore, included anti-slavery language in his resolution. McDonnell turned back the clock, honoring those who fought against the United States, and neglecting entirely to mention slavery.

Adam Serwer noted, “[N]ot only does McDonnell venerate those who took up arms against their own country, he does so without acknowledging that the institution for which they fought was the right to preserve the right to own human beings as slaves. He then papers over the horrors of reconstruction, lynching, and Jim Crow that followed.”

Del. Kenneth Cooper Alexander (D), chairman of Virginia’s Legislative Black Caucus, added, “Governor McDonnell’s proclamation was offensive and offered a disturbing revision of the Civil War and the brutal era that followed. Virginia has worked hard to move beyond the very things for which Governor McDonnell seems nostalgic.”

James McPherson, dean of Civil War scholars, described McDonnell’s proclamation as “obnoxious.”

I’d just add McDonnell, a graduate of radical TV preacher Pat Robertson’s college, was only too pleased to present himself to voters last year as a relative moderate. Indeed, the governor capitalized on friendly support (though not an official endorsement) from former Virginia Gov. Doug Wilder (D), the first African-American governor in the nation since Reconstruction.

But the facade didn’t last after McDonnell’s inauguration. It’s the funny thing about conservative Republicans who downplay their ideology to get elected — they invariably stop pretending just as soon as they’re in positions of authority.

36 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:31:24am

re: #23 EmmmieG

I’m still wondering why mixing races was Communist.

I thought Communism was about state control of resources. (And people. And media. And people. And freedoms, etc.)

(Ooh, ooh, wait for it…if Communism as about restricting personal freedoms and rights, wouldn’t telling someone they couldn’t marry a person of the opposite race be more Communist than letting them pick their own spouse?)

LOL Don’t try to make sense of it. I tried doing that too. Whatever it is, the Jews will be blamed, you can count on that!

37 Raisin_Bran  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:31:25am

re: #5 Obdicut

Not necessarily, there were still amounts of free blacks volunteering in the Confederate Army.

38 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:31:32am

re: #32 Jeff In Ohio


Life is complicated.

Especially for that one great-granduncle who fought for both sides. Sounds like a story behind that one.

39 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:32:20am

re: #37 Raisin_Bran

Not necessarily, there were still amounts of free blacks volunteering in the Confederate Army.

This is FALSE.

40 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:32:22am

re: #37 Raisin_Bran

Not necessarily, there were still amounts of free blacks volunteering in the Confederate Army.

Covered on the last thread.

41 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:32:26am

re: #37 Raisin_Bran

You obviously missed the past threads debunking that.

42 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:32:34am

re: #35 iceweasel

That article nicely points out that while many politicians play to the base during elections and then hew to the middle, this is a case of a politician pretending to be moderate and then swinging wildly to the right after election.

43 badger1970  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:32:43am

re: #37 Raisin_Bran

Not necessarily, there were still amounts of free blacks volunteering in the Confederate Army.

See downstairs for answer on that one.

44 MrSilverDragon  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:32:57am

re: #34 SpaceJesus

I’d go to Virginia now, if just to kick this guy in the balls

I was just in Virginia for a few hours. Got to see someone getting an FST on my way down… at 11AM. I’m glad I’m back in Maryland again… if only not to be in Virginia.

45 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:33:29am

re: #44 MrSilverDragon

I was just in Virginia for a few hours. Got to see someone getting an FST on my way down… at 11AM. I’m glad I’m back in Maryland again… if only not to be in Virginia.

We are neighbors then.

46 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:34:06am

re: #37 Raisin_Bran

Not necessarily, there were still amounts of free blacks volunteering in the Confederate Army.

Oh. That’s why you gave a downding to my post. Because you’re a historical revisionist.

That explains it.

Sorry, but I love history. People who rewrite it for their political agenda are anathema to me.

47 iceweasel  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:34:24am

re: #42 Obdicut

That article nicely points out that while many politicians play to the base during elections and then hew to the middle, this is a case of a politician pretending to be moderate and then swinging wildly to the right after election.

Yeah. I didn’t know about his schooling. Yikes.

Ta-Nehisi Coates is possibly my fave take on this so far:

A lot of you have e-mailed me to note that Virginia governor Bob McDonnell has decided to honor those who fought to preserve, and extend, white supremacy. I don’t really have much to say. The GOP is, effectively, the party of willfully unlettered Utopians. It is the party of choice for those who believe global warming is a hoax, that humans roamed the earth with dinosaurs, and that homosexuals should work harder at not being gay.

That the party of unadulterated quackery also believes that Birth Of A Nation is more true to the Civil War than Battle Cry Of Freedom, is to be expected. Ignorance does not respect boundaries. It is, at times, qualified and those who know more, often struggle to say more. But people who believe that the Census is actually a covert attempt to put Americans in concentration camps, are also likely to believe that slavery was incidental to the Civil War.

This is who they are—the proud and ignorant. If you believe that if we still had segregation we wouldn’t “have had all these problems,” this is the movement for you. If you believe that your president is a Muslim sleeper agent, this is the movement for you. If you honor a flag raised explicitly to destroy this country then this is the movement for you. If you flirt with secession, even now, then this movement is for you. If you are a “Real American” with no demonstrable interest in “Real America” then, by God, this movement of alchemists and creationists, of anti-science and hair tonic, is for you.

This story has really been burning up memeorandum.

48 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:34:28am

Courtesy of Balloon-Juice:

What TNC said…

49 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:34:36am

Now up to 14 hate mails.

50 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:34:46am

Declaration of Causes for Secession by South Carolina, Texas, Georgia and Mississippi

South Carolina: The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.

Texas: Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated Union to promote her welfare, insure domestic tranquility and secure more substantially the blessings of peace and liberty to her people. She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution, under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery— the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits— a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy.

Mississippi: Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery— the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization.

Georgia: The Constitution declares that persons charged with crimes in one State and fleeing to another shall be delivered up on the demand of the executive authority of the State from which they may flee, to be tried in the jurisdiction where the crime was committed. It would appear difficult to employ language freer from ambiguity, yet for above twenty years the non-slave-holding States generally have wholly refused to deliver up to us persons charged with crimes affecting slave property. Our confederates, with punic faith, shield and give sanctuary to all criminals who seek to deprive us of this property or who use it to destroy us. This clause of the Constitution has no other sanction than their good faith; that is withheld from us; we are remediless in the Union; out of it we are remitted to the laws of nations.

51 Cato the Elder  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:34:52am

re: #12 Charles

Wow, the wingnut monkeys are really flinging their poo at me on Twitter today. Just fired up Tweedeck and they’re losing their shit.

I think they’re misremembering a Bible quote: “Ye must lose your shit to gain it.”

52 Gus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:35:11am

re: #23 EmmmieG

I’m still wondering why mixing races was Communist.

I thought Communism was about state control of resources. (And people. And media. And people. And freedoms, etc.)

(Ooh, ooh, wait for it…if Communism as about restricting personal freedoms and rights, wouldn’t telling someone they couldn’t marry a person of the opposite race be more Communist than letting them pick their own spouse?)

One of the reasons is because many American communists were supporting integration. The earliest involvement revolves around the infamous Scottsboro Boys incident of 1931: Communist Party of America takes over the cases.

The Scottsboro Boys were nine black defendants in a 1931 Scottsboro, Alabama rape case, which was heard by the United States Supreme Court twice in Powell v. Alabama and Norris v. Alabama. These decisions established the principles that criminal defendants are entitled to effective assistance of counsel and that people may not be de facto excluded from juries because of their race…

The calling out of the National Guard attracted the attention of the national media to small town Scottsboro and its trial. The New York Times and the Associated Press reported the trial, which caused a demonstration in Harlem. The cause of the Scottsboro defendants had also come to the attention of the American Communist Party. James Allen, who was a party member, Chattanooga resident and editor of the Communist publication Southern Worker, first heard about the case over Chattanooga radio right after the posse stopped the train in nearby Jackson County, Alabama…

These communists should be applauded for their efforts in stamping out racism in the United States.

53 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:35:28am

re: #37 Raisin_Bran

Not necessarily, there were still amounts of free blacks volunteering in the Confederate Army.

Revisionist twaddle. Shut the fuck up til your ready to eat with the adults.

54 Lidane  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:35:57am
But I focused on the ones I thought were most significant for Virginia.

So slavery wasn’t significant in Virginia?

Wow. Just…wow. I don’t even know what to say to that. My mind is literally blown right now.

55 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:36:02am

re: #49 Charles

Now up to 14 hate mails.

My over/under guess is 57.

56 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:36:19am

New bumper sticker:

Virginia is for Haters (with a frowny face or a heart with a slash through it).

I was thinking of what the sane people in Virginia should do if anything. If they wanted to rally, which may be a good idea, although dangerous (but then isn’t the fight for freedom always dangerous), I would support them. I would fly up and march with them if I could.

57 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:36:42am

I read a great book back in college that talked about the folklore/myths about slavery. Basically, there were those in the South who claimed that blacks were fine under slavery and weren’t looking to be freed.

Of course, their sources for this information were the slaves, who were, de facto, not free to tell them the truth.

So you had the house servant who would tell his masters with a sad face that he was really sad about the Emancipation Proclamation, and then go down in the slave quarters and lead the dancing.

I wish I could remember the name of the book.

Yes, I know, the plural of anecdote is not data. Made for interesting reading, though.

58 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:37:06am

re: #52 Gus 802

It’s true. It was one thing the Soviets could always throw in our faces, back before (and still, somewhat, after) Civil Rights. We were a free society with some members less free than others.

Still are, unfortunately, but in much smaller ways.

59 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:37:41am

BBIAB. Or a period of time much bigger than a bit.

60 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:38:03am

re: #52 Gus 802

Interesting. And the Jews, of course, supported integration so I wasn’t so far off.

61 albusteve  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:38:08am

re: #44 MrSilverDragon

I was just in Virginia for a few hours. Got to see someone getting an FST on my way down… at 11AM. I’m glad I’m back in Maryland again… if only not to be in Virginia.

I like VA, it’s beautiful, full of all kinds of stuff to do…I’d never not go there because of some crackpot politician…I’m sure there are millions of Virginians that are not racists

62 SpaceJesus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:38:15am

re: #52 Gus 802

These communists should be applauded for their efforts in stamping out racism in the United States.

I really like how in the 50’s, America was tooting its horn about being a bastion of liberty and freedom as opposed to the “evil and godless” USSR, while at the same time spraying black kids with firehoses and denying minorities access to equal schooling.

63 bosforus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:38:29am

Proctor: All right, here’s your last question. What was the cause of the Civil War?
Apu: Actually, there were numerous causes. Aside from the obvious schism between the abolitionists and the anti-abolitionists, there were economic factors, both domestic and inter—
Proctor: Wait, wait… just say slavery.
Apu: Slavery it is, sir.

64 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:38:32am

re: #23 EmmmieG

I’m still wondering why mixing races was Communist.

Because they’re crazy.

65 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:38:57am

re: #52 Gus 802

Still a going concern in 1979.

The Greensboro massacre took place on November 3, 1979 in Greensboro, North Carolina, United States. Five marchers were shot and killed by members of the Ku Klux Klan and the American Nazi Party while in a protest. It was the culmination of attempts by the Communist Workers Party (known as the Workers Viewpoint Organization at the time of the shooting) to organize mostly black industrial workers in the area.[1]

The marchers killed were: Sandi Smith, a nurse and civil rights activist; Dr. James Waller, president of a local textile workers union who had given up his medical practice to organize workers; Bill Sampson, a graduate of the Harvard University School of Divinity; Cesar Cause, an immigrant from Cuba who graduated magna cum laude from Duke University; and Dr. Michael Nathan, chief of pediatrics at Lincoln Community Health Center in Durham, NC, a clinic that helped children from low-income families.

66 acacia  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:39:19am

The only word that comes to mind is WHY? This is ridiculous. Not to mention slavery because there were other important issues is like ignoring the Holocaust because there were “other important issues” is WWII.

67 SpaceJesus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:39:21am

re: #49 Charles

any worth sharing?

68 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:39:27am

re: #47 iceweasel

Coates rocks the house.

69 albusteve  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:39:37am

re: #53 Jeff In Ohio

Revisionist twaddle. Shut the fuck up til your ready to eat with the adults.

lighten up, that’s pretty harsh

70 Gus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:39:37am

re: #58 Obdicut

It’s true. It was one thing the Soviets could always throw in our faces, back before (and still, somewhat, after) Civil Rights. We were a free society with some members less free than others.

Still are, unfortunately, but in much smaller ways.

The American communists were for the most part far removed from Soviet influence. Did the Soviets use this aspect of American society from time to time, yes. However, within our shores communism was more of an intellectual movement. Most of them that visited the USSR came back highly critical of the Soviet system.

71 bosforus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:40:16am

re: #62 SpaceJesus

I really like how in the 50’s, America was tooting its horn about being a bastion of liberty and freedom as opposed to the “evil and godless” USSR, while at the same time spraying black kids with firehoses and denying minorities access to equal schooling.

Compared to the USSR we were. Though your point is taken.

72 albusteve  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:40:54am

re: #62 SpaceJesus

I really like how in the 50’s, America was tooting its horn about being a bastion of liberty and freedom as opposed to the “evil and godless” USSR, while at the same time spraying black kids with firehoses and denying minorities access to equal schooling.

and chewing them up with attack dogs….just demonic

73 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:40:57am

re: #48 Dreggas

Courtesy of Balloon-Juice:

What TNC said…

This line is great:

If you are a “Real American” with no demonstrable interest in “Real America” then, by God, this movement of alchemists and creationists, of anti-science and hair tonic, is for you.

Alchemists and hair tonic! I’m totally using that in an argument.

74 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:41:12am

re: #70 Gus 802

Have you ever read my favorite journalist ever, Murray Kempton?

He is one of the finest Americans ever to live, and one of the best writers, as well.

en.wikipedia.org

A socialist, too.

75 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:42:02am

re: #67 SpaceJesus

any worth sharing?

Agreed. Plus, let’s see the grammar.

76 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:42:05am

re: #69 albusteve

lighten up, that’s pretty harsh

it’s a racist meme to claim there were lots of black confederate soldiers, it’s classic white supremacist propaganda that raisin guy was laying on us

77 Lidane  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:42:26am

re: #47 iceweasel

Coates is awesome. I love reading his columns.

78 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:42:55am

re: #62 SpaceJesus

See that’s different because America was free, free to treat others as different and free to segregate them and if we were forced to integrate we wouldn’t be free anymore also, too.

//

79 darthstar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:42:57am

re: #76 WindUpBird

it’s a racist meme to claim there were lots of black confederate soldiers, it’s classic white supremacist propaganda that raisin guy was laying on us

raisin is a hatchling still stuck inside his shell.

80 albusteve  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:43:18am

re: #76 WindUpBird

it’s a racist meme to claim there were lots of black confederate soldiers, it’s classic white supremacist propaganda that raisin guy was laying on us

or maybe just uninformed…not everything always fits what you think it is

81 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:43:37am

re: #37 Raisin_Bran

Not necessarily, there were still amounts of free blacks volunteering in the Confederate Army.

Enjoy your downding! If you need a link to Freerepublic to hang out with the rest of the children, Google can help you.

82 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:43:38am

re: #62 SpaceJesus

I really like how in the 50’s, America was tooting its horn about being a bastion of liberty and freedom as opposed to the “evil and godless” USSR, while at the same time spraying black kids with firehoses and denying minorities access to equal schooling.

I know some folks who reminisce about the good days in the 50’s when they watched Ozzie and Harriet and kept their doors open and walked in the night air.

… and beat the Blacks senseless
… and separated the restaurants and drinking fountains
… and murdered little Black girls
… and murdered young men who tried to give Blacks the vote.

yea, them waz the good ole days

83 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:44:30am

re: #82 marjoriemoon

But that could never have happened! Leave it to beaver told me so!

84 Randall Gross  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:44:35am

Things are going really south really fast in Kyrgyzstan

reuters.com

85 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:45:13am

re: #49 Charles

Now up to 14 hate mails.

I would like to pen a response to those mails.

Dear ignorant bigot.

We at LGF feel for you. After all, it is tough to make one’s way in such a difficult and threatening world where so many people are different than you. They are so often, better educated and vastly smarter than you. Their presence certainly shines a light on your painful inadequacies. We understand that up until recently, you could still maintain an illusion of superiority because of incidental factors like your pink complexion and a belief that when the Constitution and the declaration of Independence talked about rights for all men, of course it only meant white folks like you.

But the world changed and left you behind. We know that hurts. So many of those people who are smarter, better educated and more successful than you are well not white, and not Christian (or Christian in name only, they think that Jesus meant be good to everyone, but of course you know better!).

Where does that leave you though with your obvious privledge of just assuming that you and other ignorant racist bigoted trash like you own this nation stripped? We understand your pain.

We are happy it hurts. We hope that you will use it as a motivator to stop being arrogant, ignorant, racist and whiny, but rather actually go out and be a better person.

Yours,
Lizards everywhere.

86 darthstar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:45:16am

re: #37 Raisin_Bran

Not necessarily, there were still amounts of free blacks volunteering in the Confederate Army.

Wha?…did they hate their own freedom?

87 Gus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:45:22am

re: #23 EmmmieG

I’m still wondering why mixing races was Communist.

I thought Communism was about state control of resources. (And people. And media. And people. And freedoms, etc.)

(Ooh, ooh, wait for it…if Communism as about restricting personal freedoms and rights, wouldn’t telling someone they couldn’t marry a person of the opposite race be more Communist than letting them pick their own spouse?)

I also posted more here last night:

littlegreenfootballs.com

littlegreenfootballs.com

88 Cato the Elder  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:45:36am

In case any Lizards would like to send direct “feedback” (as in, you fed me your shit, here’s mine) to the Right Honorable Governor of the Commonwealth of Virginia, you can send McDonnel your own little message here.

Or just modify mine. I like the whole “whereas, whereas, whereas…now, therefore” pseudo-official shtick, so I took the trouble to replicate it in my linguoreplicator.

WHEREAS you, the Governor of the Commonwealth of Virginia, have seen fit to make a mockery of the true causes of the Civil war with your proclamation declaring it to have been “a four year war between the states for independence” rather than what it was, a war between people and states who believed they had the right to own human beings as chattel property and those that did not; and

WHEREAS my place of residence puts me in the way of frequently visiting the Commonwealth of Virginia; and

WHEREAS my money can easily be spent elsewhere;

NOW, therefore, I, [insert name here] of [insert city and state here], declare that until such time as this nauseating revisionist proclamation is rescinded, I shall not visit, purchase goods from, or support in any way the Commonwealth of Virginia, and will actively work to encourage others to take similar steps.

89 albusteve  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:45:51am

re: #82 marjoriemoon

I know some folks who reminisce about the good days in the 50’s when they watched Ozzie and Harriet and kept their doors open and walked in the night air.

… and beat the Blacks senseless
… and separated the restaurants and drinking fountains
… and murdered little Black girls
… and murdered young men who tried to give Blacks the vote.

yea, them waz the good ole days

after all these decades I believe the church bomber that killed the four girls was finally brought to justice…is that correct?

90 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:46:11am

re: #85 LudwigVanQuixote
PIMF

I would like to pen a response to those mails.

Dear ignorant bigot,

We at LGF feel for you. After all, it is tough to make one’s way in such a difficult and threatening world where so many people are different than you. They are so often, better educated and vastly smarter than you. Their presence certainly shines a light on your painful inadequacies. We understand that up until recently, you could still maintain an illusion of superiority because of incidental factors like your pink complexion and a belief that when the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence talked about rights for all men, of course it only meant white folks like you.

But the world changed and left you behind. We know that hurts. So many of those people who are smarter, better educated and more successful than you are well not white, and not Christian (or Christian in name only, they think that Jesus meant be good to everyone, but of course you know better!).

Where does that leave you though with your obvious privledge of just assuming that you and other ignorant racist bigoted trash like you own this nation stripped? We understand your pain.

We are happy it hurts. We hope that you will use it as a motivator to stop being arrogant, ignorant, racist and whiny, but rather actually go out and be a better person.

Yours,
Lizards everywhere.

91 SpaceJesus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:46:16am

re: #82 marjoriemoon


I got one of those stupid chain emails from my aunt in texas one time about how great the 50s were to grow up in compared to today. I just responded with a picture of a german shepherd being sicked on a black student and never got a a reply back.

92 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:46:22am

re: #80 albusteve

or maybe just uninformed…not everything always fits what you think it is

Well, it IS white supremacist propaganda, but that of course doesn’t mean that this guy’s a white supremacist, he might just be believing what someone told him, that’s true.

Sorta like normal God-fearing housewives believing made up alarmist statistics about gay people, they’re not so much bigoted as they just believe, and are inclined to believe, every demonizing e-mail chain letter and Bachmann line that shows up in their inbox.

93 iceweasel  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:46:25am

re: #68 Jeff In Ohio

Coates rocks the house.

Yeah, I’m really loving that guy.

94 windsagio  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:46:31am

Off to see my niece and hopefully my (soon to be) nephew. See you guys Saturday, and have a good week!

95 jamesfirecat  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:47:03am

re: #86 darthstar

Wha?…did they hate their own freedom?

Yes, just like GOProud today….

96 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:47:08am

re: #89 albusteve

after all these decades I believe the church bomber that killed the four girls was finally brought to justice…is that correct?

Yes, I think that’s true. Couple years back?

97 tidledam  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:47:19am

And meanwhile, apparently in the same train of thought:

WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama’s advisers will remove religious terms such as “Islamic extremism” from the central document outlining the US national security strategy and will use the rewritten document to emphasize that the United States does not view Muslim nations through the lens of terror, counterterrorism officials said.

To read the whole story

98 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:47:23am

re: #94 windsagio

Off to see my niece and hopefully my (soon to be) nephew. See you guys Saturday, and have a good week!

Your niece is getting a sex change? :)

99 MrSilverDragon  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:47:35am

re: #82 marjoriemoon

I know some folks who reminisce about the good days in the 50’s when they watched Ozzie and Harriet and kept their doors open and walked in the night air.

… and beat the Blacks senseless
… and separated the restaurants and drinking fountains
… and murdered little Black girls
… and murdered young men who tried to give Blacks the vote.

yea, them waz the good ole days

I’m reminded of a book I read a few years back called, “The Good Old Days… They Were Terrible!” by Otto Bettmann. Well worth the read.

100 windsagio  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:47:52am

re: #98 Mad Al-Jaffee

haha no, but there may or may not be another one out by the time I have to leave >>

101 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:47:53am

re: #91 SpaceJesus

I got one of those stupid chain emails from my aunt in texas one time about how great the 50s were to grow up in compared to today. I just responded with a picture of a german shepherd being sicked on a black student and never got a a reply back.

*high five*

102 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:48:16am

ACORN Sting Tape EDITED: Rachel Maddow Dissects Edit-Bay Trickery (VIDEO)

Skip ahead to about 4:00 to get to the meat of the story.

103 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:48:22am

re: #91 SpaceJesus

I got one of those stupid chain emails from my aunt in texas one time about how great the 50s were to grow up in compared to today. I just responded with a picture of a german shepherd being sicked on a black student and never got a a reply back.

I salute you!

104 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:48:24am

re: #97 tidledam

Can you explain how that’s the ‘same train of thought’?

105 albusteve  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:49:06am

re: #88 Cato the Elder

In case any Lizards would like to send direct “feedback” (as in, you fed me your shit, here’s mine) to the Right Honorable Governor of the Commonwealth of Virginia, you can send McDonnel your own little message here.

Or just modify mine. I like the whole “whereas, whereas, whereas…now, therefore” pseudo-official shtick, so I took the trouble to replicate it in my linguoreplicator.

already did…yesterday, and added that should he ever step foot in NM I’ll give him an appropriate reception

106 bosforus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:49:28am

re: #84 Thanos

Things are going really south really fast in Kyrgyzstan

[Link: www.reuters.com…]

Seeing photos of injured riot police officers is sad. Generally, they are genuinely trying to just keep order. They have families and live in the same communities as the rioters.

107 Gus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:49:42am

re: #97 tidledam

And meanwhile, apparently in the same train of thought:

To read the whole story

Could you explain how that is the same “train of thought?”

108 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:49:48am

re: #97 tidledam

And meanwhile, apparently in the same train of thought:

To read the whole story

How many accounts have you registered at LGF?

109 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:49:51am

re: #99 MrSilverDragon

I’m reminded of a book I read a few years back called, “The Good Old Days… They Were Terrible!” by Otto Bettmann. Well worth the read.

I’m glad my “good old days” will be mostly memories of Atari 2600 games, shag carpet, and new wave music :D

110 Stanley Sea  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:50:20am

re: #48 Dreggas

Courtesy of Balloon-Juice:

What TNC said…

I was going to post that. Dreggas - good job.

111 albusteve  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:50:25am

re: #92 WindUpBird

Well, it IS white supremacist propaganda, but that of course doesn’t mean that this guy’s a white supremacist, he might just be believing what someone told him, that’s true.

Sorta like normal God-fearing housewives believing made up alarmist statistics about gay people, they’re not so much bigoted as they just believe, and are inclined to believe, every demonizing e-mail chain letter and Bachmann line that shows up in their inbox.

I try to give everybody the benefit of the doubt, that’s all….do what you want

112 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:50:25am

re: #109 WindUpBird

I’m glad my “good old days” will be mostly memories of Atari 2600 games, shag carpet, and new wave music :D

Yeah, that and Welcome Back Kotter!

113 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:50:44am

re: #97 tidledam

And meanwhile, apparently in the same train of thought:

To read the whole story

Not on the same thought at all, not even close, creep!

114 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:50:51am

re: #111 albusteve

I try to give everybody the benefit of the doubt, that’s all…do what you want

fair enough!

115 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:50:52am

re: #91 SpaceJesus

I got one of those stupid chain emails from my aunt in texas one time about how great the 50s were to grow up in compared to today. I just responded with a picture of a german shepherd being sicked on a black student and never got a a reply back.

Oh dear! It’s harder when it’s family, huh….

My ex’s family was from southern Alabama. Upon our first meeting, I was afraid they wouldn’t like me because I’m Jewish. Actually, they had no problem with that at all, but they weren’t too happy that I was a “yank”. I was kinda shocked about that.

But you know, they loved me because I am quite lovable :) And if they were racists, I never saw it.

116 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:50:53am

re: #106 bosforus

Uh— I think the police may be somewhat different in a totally corrupt country like Kyrgyzstan.

117 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:50:57am
118 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:50:58am

re: #104 Obdicut


It’s the Rudy Giuliani school of foreign policy thinking. We have to call all threats eminating from any terrorist group Islamic/Islamo-Fascist/Jihadist or we’ll LOSE THE WAR ON TERROR and to do otherwise means we do not take THE WAR ON TERROR seriously.

Of course ask any wingnut why their hero George Bush’s admin put out papers saying that such terms didn’t help advance our goals and you get the fingers in ears “LA-LA-LA” bullshit.

119 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:51:18am

Rut roh…

120 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:51:26am

re: #88 Cato the Elder

In case any Lizards would like to send direct “feedback” (as in, you fed me your shit, here’s mine) to the Right Honorable Governor of the Commonwealth of Virginia, you can send McDonnel your own little message here.

Or just modify mine. I like the whole “whereas, whereas, whereas…now, therefore” pseudo-official shtick, so I took the trouble to replicate it in my linguoreplicator.

By all means this little shit needs to have every decent American tell him that yes indeed, he is a little shit.

121 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:51:45am

This governor is an asshole… now though, an interesting aside to this topic is the claim made up above by “raisin bran” that there were black confederates in the Civil War.

Charles said “This is FALSE.”

I have found a number of studies and books that claim otherwise, even one published by the University of Virginia.

upress.virginia.edu

This study…

usgennet.org

This page…

scvcamp469-nbf.com

I skimmed the essay, and read the reviews of the books and skimmed the last page. I’m not sure if this is all revisionist history (the book by Jordon seems to be held up as a truthful study), but it interesting that there is a difference of opinion on this.

Does anyone have any info that puts this to bed?

122 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:51:49am

re: #117 tidledam

Is that five minutes because you’ll be banned by then?

123 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:51:54am

re: #102 Killgore Trout

ACORN Sting Tape EDITED: Rachel Maddow Dissects Edit-Bay Trickery (VIDEO)

Skip ahead to about 4:00 to get to the meat of the story.

RACHEL MADDOW RULES

I wish she wasn’t the only show on cable news that kicked ass :(

124 bosforus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:51:56am

re: #116 Obdicut

Uh— I think the police may be somewhat different in a totally corrupt country like Kyrgyzstan.

I considered that and you could very well be right. I can’t speak for riot police around the world. ;)

125 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:52:22am

re: #117 tidledam

… you’ve 5 minutes to figure out. Get back to me than if you don’t hit the answer. Good luck

weak sauce, kiddo

126 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:52:28am

re: #57 EmmmieG

I read a great book back in college that talked about the folklore/myths about slavery. Basically, there were those in the South who claimed that blacks were fine under slavery and weren’t looking to be freed.

Of course, their sources for this information were the slaves, who were, de facto, not free to tell them the truth.

So you had the house servant who would tell his masters with a sad face that he was really sad about the Emancipation Proclamation, and then go down in the slave quarters and lead the dancing.

I wish I could remember the name of the book.

Yes, I know, the plural of anecdote is not data. Made for interesting reading, though.

People always write the history that serves their guilt.

My other Great-Grandfather was a wealthy land speculator who had a dozen or so slaves. He fathered 5 children with his house slave, a woman name Caroline Spring, naming the oldest John Lafayette. Following the end of the Civil War and emancipation, Ms. Spring and her children settled in the Oregonia, Ohio area and named their farm the same as my Great-Grandfathers farm. 10 years later, my Great-Grandfather, his estate reduced to about 500 acres from 10,000 following Reconstruction, married a white woman and named his first born white son, my grandfather, John Lafayette.

As my black cousin from Detroit remarked to me when I asked her about her thoughts on the motivation for our great-grandfather to name both sons - one black, one white, one born a slave, one born free man - John Lafayette and her Great-Grandmother to name their farm after her former enslaver ….Life is complicated.

Fucking right.

127 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:52:32am

re: #120 LudwigVanQuixote

I sent him something yesterday. I bet he has an email filter that sends anything where the person put down “San Francisco” as their place of residence right in the trash bin, though.

128 Raisin_Bran  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:52:34am

I’m not trying to ignore anyone but I have class right now and will address my comment later.

129 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:52:44am

re: #5 Obdicut

I’d like to note again that the sacrifices that the proclamation asks us to honor go to categories that blacks were excluded from: Leaders, soldiers, and citizens.

The proclamation literally only recognizes the sacrifices of whites in the Confederacy.

White men, essentially. Women may have been citizens, but they were without the vote, or control over the political situation.

130 Gus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:52:48am

re: #122 Obdicut

Is that five minutes because you’ll be banned by then?

Done! :)

131 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:53:05am

re: #108 Charles

How many accounts have you registered at LGF?

Never mind, I already know. This is your fourth account. You registered two during the last open registration. You were blocked for posting an ugly insulting comment last month, and you just came right back and registered two accounts.

Get off my website.

132 MrSilverDragon  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:53:27am

re: #109 WindUpBird

I’m glad my “good old days” will be mostly memories of Atari 2600 games, shag carpet, and new wave music :D

I can’t remember a lot of my “good old days” for various chemically induced reasons, but I’m assuming they were good, since I’m still alive and kicking today.

133 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:53:40am

re: #106 bosforus

Seeing photos of injured riot police officers is sad. Generally, they are genuinely trying to just keep order. They have families and live in the same communities as the rioters.


Were you sad for the cops in Iran beating democratic protesters? The poor riot cops! All they wanted to do was murder and supress demonstrations! Shed a tear for the poor poor Stasi.

134 justaminute  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:53:40am

I am a firm supporter of mixing the races. It changes the topics of conversations from “them” to “we.”

135 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:53:43am

re: #121 Walter L. Newton

Oh for fuck’s sake Walter.

136 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:53:53am

re: #69 albusteve

lighten up, that’s pretty harsh

I am being light.

137 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:53:53am

re: #122 Obdicut

Is that five minutes because you’ll be banned by then?

re: #119 Cannadian Club Akbar

Rut roh…

Heh.

138 reine.de.tout  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:53:59am

re: #122 Obdicut

Is that five minutes because you’ll be banned by then?

Yep.
LOL
down the drain.

139 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:54:07am

re: #130 Gus 802

Done! :)

What’s the sound of one hand flushing? :D

140 SpaceJesus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:54:28am

re: #115 marjoriemoon

Oh dear! It’s harder when it’s family, huh…

My ex’s family was from southern Alabama. Upon our first meeting, I was afraid they wouldn’t like me because I’m Jewish. Actually, they had no problem with that at all, but they weren’t too happy that I was a “yank”. I was kinda shocked about that.

But you know, they loved me because I am quite lovable :) And if they were racists, I never saw it.


funny. that same texan aunt i was telling you about had one son, and he married a jewish girl. they don’t like her too much because she’s a yank and a moderate. she’s my new favorite relative.

141 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:54:36am

re: #126 Jeff In Ohio

People always write the history that serves their guilt.

My other Great-Grandfather was a wealthy land speculator who had a dozen or so slaves. He fathered 5 children with his house slave, a woman name Caroline Spring, naming the oldest John Lafayette. Following the end of the Civil War and emancipation, Ms. Spring and her children settled in the Oregonia, Ohio area and named their farm the same as my Great-Grandfathers farm. 10 years later, my Great-Grandfather, his estate reduced to about 500 acres from 10,000 following Reconstruction, married a white woman and named his first born white son, my grandfather, John Lafayette.

As my black cousin from Detroit remarked to me when I asked her about her thoughts on the motivation for our great-grandfather to name both sons - one black, one white, one born a slave, one born free man - John Lafayette and her Great-Grandmother to name their farm after her former enslaver …Life is complicated.

Fucking right.

If I may ask, how old are you?

I mean don’t you mean great great grandfather?

142 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:54:40am

re: #123 WindUpBird

Rachel can be good and for the most part her take downs are something to see but she can be a bit shrill too.

143 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:54:43am

re: #121 Walter L. Newton

For the 500th time now (is it?) they didn’t fight. Ok?

144 Lidane  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:54:46am

re: #76 WindUpBird

it’s a racist meme to claim there were lots of black confederate soldiers, it’s classic white supremacist propaganda that raisin guy was laying on us

Exactly. Which is why Jeff wasn’t harsh enough. He went easy on that post, IMO.

145 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:54:49am

re: #136 Jeff In Ohio

I am being light.

that made me laugh :D

146 charlz  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:54:52am

re: #56 marjoriemoon

I was thinking of what the sane people in Virginia should do if anything.

I’m going to fly my Confederate flag upside down in protest!
/

147 bosforus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:55:08am

re: #133 WindUpBird

Were you sad for the cops in Iran beating democratic protesters? The poor riot cops! All they wanted to do was murder and supress demonstrations! Shed a tear for the poor poor Stasi.

Yeah, how’d you guess? Care to do any more mind reading?

148 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:55:10am

bbiab my pizza is ready for pickup

149 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:55:26am

re: #135 Obdicut

Oh for fuck’s sake Walter.

What the matter. I asked a question. Can you put this to bed? I don’t know the absolute answer. What the fuck, do you? If you do, tell me about it?

150 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:55:33am

re: #142 Dreggas

Rachel can be good and for the most part her take downs are something to see but she can be a bit shrill too.

Eh, if it’s a political show, it’ll be a little shrill, comes with the territory. She’s head and shoulders above everything else on the cable news tubes though, there’s just nobody else in her league.

151 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:55:37am

re: #20 iceweasel

And I think this emphasizes something else. When we say ‘the war was about things other than slavery’, we’re speaking of the motivations and goals of white men in leadership positions, or young men moved to join up with one outfit or another out of varying motivations.

For those held in slavery, the war was about slavery.

That was a lot of people.

152 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:55:57am

re: #147 bosforus

Yeah, how’d you guess? Care to do any more mind reading?

Sure! For I am MENTOK!


THE MIND TAKER!!!

153 jamesfirecat  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:56:08am

re: #150 WindUpBird

Eh, if it’s a political show, it’ll be a little shrill, comes with the territory. She’s head and shoulders above everything else on the cable news tubes though, there’s just nobody else in her league.

To me that depends on if you consider the Daily Show “News”….

154 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:56:22am

re: #149 Walter L. Newton

Yes, I’ve already posted plenty about it. You can go read my comments in the previous threads, if you’re interested in it.

155 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:56:36am

re: #140 SpaceJesus

funny. that same texan aunt i was telling you about had one son, and he married a jewish girl. they don’t like her too much because she’s a yank and a moderate. she’s my new favorite relative.

Rad :D :D

156 bosforus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:57:03am

re: #152 WindUpBird

Sure! For I am MENTOK!

THE MIND TAKER!!!

Aim your palm somewhere else, please.

157 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:57:08am

re: #146 charlz

I’m going to fly my Confederate flag upside down in protest!
/

Actually I think we should burn some Confederate flags alongside of burning some swastikas. That by the way is what real Americans did when we beat those bastards!

Seriously, let’s remind them about free speech.

158 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:57:27am

re: #143 marjoriemoon

For the 500th time now (is it?) they didn’t fight. Ok?

I’m not claiming I know if they did or didn’t. All I’ve seen in this thread is a few comment saying they didn’t, I find other material on the internet that says they did. I searching right now trying to find a authoritative counter point of view.

Do you have a link?

159 iceweasel  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:58:07am

There’s a good comment someone found on a motorcycle forum and posted over at balloon juice— here’s an excerpt (I recommend reading it all though):

Acceptance of diversity does not come easy when the question is: “who are you better than?”

And now the way the cards were dealt 18 months ago has upset a huge segment of the population. They no longer know who they are better than. They are lashing out. And there is fuck-all for a safety valve and it does run 24/7 in a perpetual echo chamber.

They say it is about “freedoms”…but they can point to no freedoms that have been lost over the last 14 months.

They say the Constitution is being destroyed, but when you ask them what parts of The General Welfare Clause or Congresses’ power to regulate Interstate Commerce are being violated…they stand mute with rage

They say it is about taxes…but they can find no drastic tax increases in the last 14 months.

Come to think of it, I don’t really remember anyone getting speared with an assegai thirty years ago either. But that didn’t stop people screaming about the danger.

And they say they want their Country Back.

Well, Bing-fucking-O.

Now we have it. They want to return to a time and place where they at least knew who they were better than.

And the fact that most of this spittle is flying from the mouths of the poor, the semi-educated, the low information voter, and from By-God Dixie…well, that is only because it is your turn. A lot of the rest of the Country has already gone through this exercise 20-30 years ago. And the same spittle flew from the same confused lips when it was our turn.

So we don’t look on Tea-hadists with scorn because they are alien and unfathomable. We do so because we recognize these very traits as ours and those of our neighbors.”All in the Family” wasn’t the most popular show in the Northeast because Archie Bunker was despised. It was popular because he was comfortably familiar. But at least he was a character. Nobody tried to run him for President.

And it ain’t just President Obama. It is a lot else: If your job can be done on the Indian sub-continent, who are you better than? If China can launch a spaceship, who are you better than? If the world looks at the mighty Dollar as little better than an American Peso, who are you better than? If an immigrant can work your ass into the ground, and do it smiling for a lot less money, who are you better than?

A whole lot of life has been shaken and stirred the last couple of decades.

This whole Tea-Party nonsense will eventually pass. Because there is no “going back”.

160 gandalf.il  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:58:26am

re: #37 Raisin_Bran

This is just not true.

quote from Wikipedia:
“Despite calculations of Virginia’s state auditor, that some 4,700 free black males and more than 25,000 male slaves between eighteen and forty five years of age were fit for service, only a small number were raised in the intervening months […] forty or fifty colored soldiers, enlisted under the act of congress”

161 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:58:46am

re: #151 SanFranciscoZionist

And I think this emphasizes something else. When we say ‘the war was about things other than slavery’, we’re speaking of the motivations and goals of white men in leadership positions, or young men moved to join up with one outfit or another out of varying motivations.

For those held in slavery, the war was about slavery.

That was a lot of people.

And those motivations of those white men in power were all based on maintaining the wealth and power they gained from enslaving others.

They are the part of America that believes that some people were just born to rule over other lesser folks.

Are you really surprised that these are now the GOP?

162 3eff Jeff  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:59:17am

re: #146 charlz

I’m going to fly my Confederate flag upside down in protest!
/

You should hang it upside down from the wing of a General Lee Toyota Supra.

163 Gus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:59:17am

Let’s say that there were black Confederates. My response would be what difference would that make? They would have still been on the wrong side of history.

164 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 11:59:59am

re: #83 Dreggas

But that could never have happened! Leave it to beaver told me so!

I like to think that the Cleavers were a bit activisty, and wrote letters to the editor about important issues…they just didn’t think it was appropriate to talk about it in front of the boys. Wally, maybe, during the commercial breaks.

165 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:00:05pm

Professor Emeritus of American History Truman R. Clark: History gives lie to myth of black Confederate soldiers.

A racist fabrication has sprung up in the last decade: that the Confederacy had “thousands” of African- American slaves “fighting” in its armies during the Civil War.

Unfortunately, even some African-American men today have gotten conned into Putting on Confederate uniforms to play “re-enactors” in an army that fought to ensure that their ancestors would remain slaves.

There are two underlying points of this claim: first, to say that slavery wasn’t so bad, because after all, the slaves themselves fought to preserve the slave South; and second, that the Confederacy wasn’t really fighting for slavery. Both these notions may make some of our contemporaries feel good, but neither is historically accurate.

When one speaks of “soldiers” and “fighting” in a war, one is not talking about slaves who were taken from their masters and forced to work on military roads and other military construction projects; nor is one talking about slaves who were taken along by their masters to continue the duties of a personal valet that they performed back on the plantation. Of course, there were thousands of African-Americans forced into these situations, but they were hardly “soldiers fighting.”

Another logical point against this wacky modern idea of a racially integrated Confederate army has to do with the prisoner of war issue during the Civil War. Through 1862, there was an effective exchange system of POWs between the two sides. This entirely broke down in 1863, however, because the Confederacy refused to see black Union soldiers as soldiers - they would not be exchanged, but instead were made slaves (or, as in the 1864 Fort Pillow incident, simply murdered after their surrender). At that, the United States refused to exchange any Southern POWs and the prisoner of war camps on both sides grew immensely in numbers and misery the rest of the war.

If the Confederacy had black soldiers in its armies, why didn’t it see black men as soldiers?

By the way, all the Confederate soldiers captured by Union troops were white men. If there were “thousands” of black soldiers in the Confederate armies, why were none of them among the approximately 215,000 soldiers captured by the U. S. forces?

If there were thousands of African-American men fighting in the Confederate armies, they apparently cleverly did so without Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis, the members of the Confederate congress or any of the white soldiers of the Confederacy knowing about it. (I can just imagine some former Confederate soldier, told in 1892 that hundreds of the men in his army unit during the Civil War were black, snapping his fingers and saying, “I knew there was something different about those guys!”)

The South was running short of soldiers as the war dragged on, however, and some people began to suggest that it would be better to use slaves to fight than to lose. As late as three weeks before the Civil War came to an end, the members of the Confederate congress (and Lee and Davis) were hotly debating the question of whether to start using slaves in the Southern armies.

If, as some folks in the 1990s claim, there were already “thousands” of black troops in the Confederate armies, why were the leaders of the Confederacy still debating about whether or not they should start bringing them in?

166 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:00:15pm

re: #154 Obdicut

Yes, I’ve already posted plenty about it. You can go read my comments in the previous threads, if you’re interested in it.

I was out at the store and post office, didn’t read the last thread. Just went there, see that you were discussing the Jordon book too. I will read you comments.

Don’t fucking assume that everyone has read every word of everything you ever say on here.

167 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:00:29pm

re: #141 LudwigVanQuixote

If I may ask, how old are you?

I mean don’t you mean great great grandfather?

I’m 51 and no, my Great-Grandfather(s).

168 reine.de.tout  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:00:49pm

re: #121 Walter L. Newton

From one of your links:

3. Classification: One must understand what is meant by the term, “black Confederate”. Most black Confederate were NOT what one would considered as a “soldier” in the nineteenth century sense of the word.

The contention that there were loads of blacks fighting as soldierson behalf of the confederacy is not true.

If they were there they were in support positions, and probably in those positions because they were somebody’s “property” ordered to be there.

169 Gus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:00:54pm

While not on the same moral and ethical level, the same stupid argument is used by some when they say, “well there are gays that are opposed to gay marriage.”

170 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:00:55pm

re: #159 iceweasel

Acceptance of diversity does not come easy when the question is: “who are you better than?”

And now the way the cards were dealt 18 months ago has upset a huge segment of the population. They no longer know who they are better than. They are lashing out. And there is fuck-all for a safety valve and it does run 24/7 in a perpetual echo chamber.

They say it is about “freedoms”…but they can point to no freedoms that have been lost over the last 14 months.

They say the Constitution is being destroyed, but when you ask them what parts of The General Welfare Clause or Congresses’ power to regulate Interstate Commerce are being violated…they stand mute with rage

They say it is about taxes…but they can find no drastic tax increases in the last 14 months.

Come to think of it, I don’t really remember anyone getting speared with an assegai thirty years ago either. But that didn’t stop people screaming about the danger.

And they say they want their Country Back.

Well, Bing-fucking-O.

Now we have it. They want to return to a time and place where they at least knew who they were better than.

And the fact that most of this spittle is flying from the mouths of the poor, the semi-educated, the low information voter, and from By-God Dixie…well, that is only because it is your turn. A lot of the rest of the Country has already gone through this exercise 20-30 years ago. And the same spittle flew from the same confused lips when it was our turn.

So we don’t look on Tea-hadists with scorn because they are alien and unfathomable. We do so because we recognize these very traits as ours and those of our neighbors.”All in the Family” wasn’t the most popular show in the Northeast because Archie Bunker was despised. It was popular because he was comfortably familiar. But at least he was a character. Nobody tried to run him for President.

And it ain’t just President Obama. It is a lot else: If your job can be done on the Indian sub-continent, who are you better than? If China can launch a spaceship, who are you better than? If the world looks at the mighty Dollar as little better than an American Peso, who are you better than? If an immigrant can work your ass into the ground, and do it smiling for a lot less money, who are you better than?

A whole lot of life has been shaken and stirred the last couple of decades.

This whole Tea-Party nonsense will eventually pass. Because there is no “going back”.

Repeated for emphasis. Right there is the core of the racism of these monsters who are perverting America and tearing her down.

171 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:01:19pm

re: #165 Charles

Professor Emeritus of American History Truman R. Clark: History gives lie to myth of black Confederate soldiers.

I wasn’t here for the comments in the last thread, I didn’t even know that this came up. That’s why I was asking above.

172 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:02:07pm

re: #167 Jeff In Ohio

I’m 51 and no, my Great-Grandfather(s).

Wow, then somewhere in there, there must have been some children from much later in life.

173 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:02:12pm

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

I’m not claiming I know if they did or didn’t. All I’ve seen in this thread is a few comment saying they didn’t, I find other material on the internet that says they did. I searching right now trying to find a authoritative counter point of view.

Do you have a link?

Charles has been posting about it for 2 days. But even from the articles you posted, they aren’t clear how many Blacks were “confederate soldiers”. There’s an estimate there and then further down it says it was hard to count them. So I don’t know what Scott Williams is trying to say.

174 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:02:33pm

re: #163 Gus 802

It reminds me of the people pointing out the Jews that were in the Wermacht in WWII.

history.ucsb.edu

I have read the history of the Civil War extensively, and I can find no record of a free black man serving in the CSA in any battle as a regular soldier at any point.

175 3eff Jeff  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:02:41pm

re: #169 Gus 802

While not on the same moral and ethical level, the same stupid argument is used by some when they say, “well there are gays that are opposed to gay marriage.”

And it misses about the same amount of the point. Most of those gays are opposed to marriage. Full stop.

176 albusteve  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:03:30pm

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

I’m not claiming I know if they did or didn’t. All I’ve seen in this thread is a few comment saying they didn’t, I find other material on the internet that says they did. I searching right now trying to find a authoritative counter point of view.

Do you have a link?

people are so fucking jumpy and presumptuous eh?

177 iceweasel  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:03:42pm

re: #170 LudwigVanQuixote

Repeated for emphasis. Right there is the core of the racism of these monsters who are perverting America and tearing her down.

Yep. It’s a great comment, really. Makes the point that for these people a lot of the fear and anxiety is all about no longer knowing anymore who they are ‘better than’. Pecking order trauma.

178 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:04:21pm

re: #173 marjoriemoon

Charles has been posting about it for 2 days. But even from the articles you posted, they aren’t clear how many Blacks were “confederate soldiers”. There’s an estimate there and then further down it says it was hard to count them. So I don’t know what Scott Williams is trying to say.

I honestly didn’t see any link, that’s why I was asking this question. You can’t assume I see everything that is ever posted on this blog. I was working for half the day yesterday and I spent the evening with the family.

Sorry that I am covering old ground.

179 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:04:35pm

re: #176 albusteve

people are so fucking jumpy and presumptuous eh?

Not really. Walter was online night when we were talking about it so I assumed he saw Charles’ links at that point.

180 Jeff In Ohio  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:05:00pm

re: #167 Jeff In Ohio

And to give you some context, my dad is 90, I’m the youngest. He had 13 brothers and sisters. His dad, John Lafeyette, was born around 1875 - 80. His mom’s dad, who mustered at McMinnville, was a Lt. in the Union Army.

181 albusteve  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:05:04pm

re: #179 marjoriemoon

Not really. Walter was online night when we were talking about it so I assumed he saw Charles’ links at that point.

sure, you assume…good grief

182 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:05:16pm

re: #176 albusteve

people are so fucking jumpy and presumptuous eh?

What did I presume to be true, Steve?

183 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:05:16pm

re: #134 justaminute

I am a firm supporter of mixing the races. It changes the topics of conversations from “them” to “we.”

My late grandmother was once approached by some whackadoos with literature warning her that, due to increasing interracial marriage, the population of the United States would be entirely coffee-colored by some year in the not-too-far-off-future.

My dear grandmother thought this sounded like a grand idea, and very pretty, and talked their ears off about how attractive she thought these future children would be, and also about how it would solve all these dreadful racial problems today, because everyone would be a little bit mixed, what a nice idea, dear.

My grandmother could be a ditz, but she was a very determinedly anti-racist ditz.

184 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:05:22pm

re: #178 Walter L. Newton

I honestly didn’t see any link, that’s why I was asking this question. You can’t assume I see everything that is ever posted on this blog. I was working for half the day yesterday and I spent the evening with the family.

Sorry that I am covering old ground.

Maybe you left at some point and missed it. Charles just posted a better link upthread. #165

185 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:05:54pm

re: #179 marjoriemoon

Not really. Walter was online night when we were talking about it so I assumed he saw Charles’ links at that point.

I was online last night from about 6:45 until 7:45 and spent most of the time talking about my new job… I wouldn’t have asked the question if I had seen the links.

186 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:07:03pm

OT- Drinking in a cop car? Um, not a good idea.
thesmokinggun.com

187 reine.de.tout  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:07:37pm

re: #163 Gus 802

Let’s say that there were black Confederates. My response would be what difference would that make? They would have still been on the wrong side of history.

Exactly.
It doesn’t really matter.

re: #183 SanFranciscoZionist

My late grandmother was once approached by some whackadoos with literature warning her that, due to increasing interracial marriage, the population of the United States would be entirely coffee-colored by some year in the not-too-far-off-future.

My dear grandmother thought this sounded like a grand idea, and very pretty, and talked their ears off about how attractive she thought these future children would be, and also about how it would solve all these dreadful racial problems today, because everyone would be a little bit mixed, what a nice idea, dear.

My grandmother could be a ditz, but she was a very determinedly anti-racist ditz.

We would have an actual “all-American” race!
I think it’s a good idea, myself.

188 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:07:59pm

re: #184 marjoriemoon

Maybe you left at some point and missed it. Charles just posted a better link upthread. #165

Well yes, I just saw that and COMMENTED on that. You must have missed my comment… see, anyone can miss something, can’t they? Why do you assume. I asked an honest question up above, didn’t claim it was absolute fact and I asked for any input.

I apologize for my interest…

189 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:09:29pm

re: #169 Gus 802

While not on the same moral and ethical level, the same stupid argument is used by some when they say, “well there are gays that are opposed to gay marriage.”

True, although some of those are opposed to gay marriage for reasons that would make the hair of the straight opponents of gay marriage curl and turn white.

190 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:09:36pm

OOOps missed when I posted this:

OK humor break. Here are some gay black Jewish klansmen for tolerance and understanding. I wonder if they are allowed in the big tent?

jewcy.com

191 justaminute  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:10:43pm

re: #183 SanFranciscoZionist

I asked my husband’s cousin who teaches biology “What would people look like if they all mated together?” I should have known the answer he would give. He said “Iranian!”

192 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:11:04pm

re: #190 LudwigVanQuixote

OOOps missed when I posted this:

OK humor break. Here are some gay black Jewish klansmen for tolerance and understanding. I wonder if they are allowed in the big tent?

[Link: www.jewcy.com…]

Ever see the Dave Chappel show where he is a Grand Wizard or whatever…and blind?

193 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:11:08pm

re: #177 iceweasel

Yep. It’s a great comment, really. Makes the point that for these people a lot of the fear and anxiety is all about no longer knowing anymore who they are ‘better than’. Pecking order trauma.

Whenever you see a bunch of weak betas making a threat display it is overcompensation.

And I promise, these are weak betas.

194 iceweasel  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:11:34pm

There is a lot of good stuff over at Lawyers Guns and Money about black confederate ‘soldiers’ over the last couple of years. I’m digging for the links— one of the posters was teaching a class on the civil war at the time (the bloggers there are all academics).

Here’s one, anyway:

My wife asked the other day why I seemed so interested recently in the self-evident absurdity of “Black Confederates.” The short, pragmatic answer is that I’m teaching a course on the US Civil War era this fall, and I plan to spend no small amount of time exploring some of the popular fantasies that continue to shape public conversation about the war. The even shorter answer is that I continue to read Kevin Levin’s blog, Civil War Memory, which is an essential stop for anyone concerned with how we teach and think about the history and historiography of that horrific conflict.

Kevin has an interesting guest post from Peter Carmichael of West Virginia University, who writes about the ambivalent depictions of camp servants who participated in the war, not as “Black Confederates” but as enslaved men whose presence on the battlefield both ratified and undermined white assumptions about race and servitude.

There were camp servants who picked up a musket in battle or rescued a wounded white soldier, but these acts were not patriotic expressions of Confederate loyalty as wartime Southerners and Lost Cause advocates have claimed. Patriotism is a purely voluntary act. The presence of coercion in slavery, moreover, creates an insurmountable challenge for those who want to describe slaves as Confederate heroes. In reality, many Confederate slaves capitalized upon the masters’ need for black political action to demonstrate a sense of self-worth that they had long repressed. While Confederate slaves successfully challenged popular conceptions of what it meant to be a black man, these “victories” did not earn them the public recognition they sought, nor did it insulate them from the brutality of an institution that was even more unpredictable and volatile within the setting of a Southern rebel army than it was on the plantation.

The whole post is worth looking at. One of Carmichael’s most helpful observations is that the presence of slaves on the battlefield was an essential prosthesis for Southern white masculinity. To be able to command blacks as camp laborers — performing, among other things, “woman’s work” as cooks and laundrymen — would obviously have had practical as well as ideological value for Confederates with the means to supply them, but Carmichael also explores how enslaved laborers provided white soldiers with useful foils against which they could celebrate their own battlefield bravery. As in peacetime, the war provided slaveholders and advocates of a slaveholding society with the means to insist that enslaved men were not, in fact, Men.

Anyway, the basic points are all made in the post Charles excerpted from another academic upthread: the myth of the black confederate ‘soldier’ is most definitely historical revisionism. Still, I’d recommend checking out old LGM posts for those interested in more.

195 bosforus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:11:37pm

re: #191 justaminute

“What would people look like if they all mated together?”


Like a giant awkward dog pile orgy.

196 Gus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:11:39pm

re: #174 Obdicut

It reminds me of the people pointing out the Jews that were in the Wermacht in WWII.

[Link: www.history.ucsb.edu…]

I have read the history of the Civil War extensively, and I can find no record of a free black man serving in the CSA in any battle as a regular soldier at any point.

Thanks. I was going to mention that but couldn’t find some immediate resources. On a related not last night I watched “Prisoner in Paradise” which is documentary about Kurt Gerron and how he was forced to be the director for an SS propaganda film: Terezin: A Documentary Film of the Jewish Resettlement. More here on Kurt Gerron.

197 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:12:00pm

re: #191 justaminute

I asked my husband’s cousin who teaches biology “What would people look like if they all mated together?” I should have known the answer he would give. He said “Iranian!”

In other words—ideal?

//I’ve met a few Persians.

198 badger1970  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:12:21pm

re: #192 Cannadian Club Akbar

Chappel joked afterward, “I just set race relations back 20 years”.

199 bosforus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:13:15pm

re: #192 Cannadian Club Akbar

Ever see the Dave Chappel show where he is a Grand Wizard or whatever…and blind?

“Come on, show us your face!”

200 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:13:30pm

re: #198 badger1970

Chappel joked afterward, “I just set race relations back 20 years”.

Ah, Chappelle does that just by waking up.

Damn that man is funny.

As is Katt Williams, who, I note with sadness, has decided to quit stand-up.

201 John Vreeland  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:13:32pm

I believe those 40 or 50 were armed during the siege of Atlanta, when sheer desperation was forcing them to compromise on their principles, though some Confederate statesmen had long argued for arming them. I believe Jeb Stuart was one of these. In any event this was a lost, lonely voice, and the Confederacy doomed itself by declaring half their fit adult males unfit for military service, because that was in fact what they went to war over, the fitness of Africans to do certain things, such as carry weapons.

Finally, however, the bill was passed, but with a provision “that nothing in this act shall be construed to authorize a change in the relation of the said slaves.” But Mr. Hunter, of Virginia, had denounced it as involving emancipation, advancing this argument, among others, that “negroes now are deterred from going to the enemy only by the fear of being put in the army. If we put them in they will all go over.” But the bill passed only a few months before General Lee’s surrender, and never became operative.

from A Confederate Plan For Arming The Slaves

202 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:13:48pm

re: #196 Gus 802

I hadn’t heard of that film. Thank you.

203 Bubblehead II  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:14:55pm

BBIAW. Have to mow the lawn for the first time of the season.

204 Gus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:15:01pm

re: #202 Obdicut

I hadn’t heard of that film. Thank you.

You can watch it on Hulu:

hulu.com

205 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:16:18pm

How can a State Governor, sworn to uphold the Constitution of the US and of his State, honestly believe that slavery is not one of the civil war issues that was “most significant for Virginia”?
I say he cannot, and therefore I say he is dishonest and is in violation of his oath of office which he swore on January 16, 2010.
Youtube Video

“That all men are by nature equally free and independent and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.”
- Section 1, Virginia Declaration of Rights

206 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:16:31pm

17 hate mails so far.

207 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:16:35pm

re: #194 iceweasel

There is a lot of good stuff over at Lawyers Guns and Money about black confederate ‘soldiers’ over the last couple of years. I’m digging for the links— one of the posters was teaching a class on the civil war at the time (the bloggers there are all academics).

Here’s one, anyway:

Anyway, the basic points are all made in the post Charles excerpted from another academic upthread: the myth of the black confederate ‘soldier’ is most definitely historical revisionism. Still, I’d recommend checking out old LGM posts for those interested in more.

Thanks for that link. I had never heard of the idea until today (above) and it never even crossed my mind that there were any active black confederate soldiers. That’s why I looked, and was surprised how many papers, books and website claim that to be truthful.

It’s a prime example how something can go viral on the internet and edge out the truth. There certainly seemed to be many more pages touting this concept then material like what you linked to.

I even found pages with full recreations of black confederate soldiers, full gear, acting out battles in which they claimed blacks fought in.

208 bosforus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:17:02pm

re: #206 Charles

17 hate mails so far.

That’s a good solid prime number. One of my favorites.

209 Ebetty  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:17:53pm

re: #121 Walter L. Newton

This article is also of interest, notes that on Jordan’s research for the book you linked to, via UVA, was praised by Publisher’s Weekly.

210 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:18:20pm

re: #206 Charles

17 hate mails so far.

It’s still early. I’ll stick with my over/under of 57.

211 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:18:40pm

re: #210 Cannadian Club Akbar

It’s still early. I’ll stick with my over/under of 57.

In honor of these United States?

212 MrSilverDragon  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:19:12pm

re: #211 SanFranciscoZionist

In honor of these United States?

Nah, in honor of the sauce from Heinz.

213 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:19:19pm

re: #211 SanFranciscoZionist

In honor of these United States?

I never thought of that!! You funny!!

214 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:19:46pm

re: #109 WindUpBird

I’m glad my “good old days” will be mostly memories of Atari 2600 games, shag carpet, and new wave music :D

The 1970’s: Worst. Fashion. Decade. Ever.

215 badger1970  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:20:24pm

re: #214 Alouette

Don’t make me break out the JC Penny catalogues. //

216 Enkidu90046  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:20:37pm

What an asshole this racist prick is. I cannot believe that this crap is still alive and well in 2010.

217 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:20:42pm

re: #214 Alouette

The 1970’s: Worst. Fashion. Decade. Ever.

The music was good. Even the disco music. Down ding away.:(

218 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:21:08pm

re: #212 MrSilverDragon

Nah, in honor of the sauce from Heinz.

And the number of card carrying communists in the US government.

219 iceweasel  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:21:11pm

re: #207 Walter L. Newton

Thanks for that link. I had never heard of the idea until today (above) and it never even crossed my mind that there were any active black confederate soldiers. That’s why I looked, and was surprised how many papers, books and website claim that to be truthful.

It’s a prime example how something can go viral on the internet and edge out the truth. There certainly seemed to be many more pages touting this concept then material like what you linked to.

I even found pages with full recreations of black confederate soldiers, full gear, acting out battles in which they claimed blacks fought in.

The LGM link I gave links to a Civil War blog by an academic that debunks much of that material. There’s other stuff over at LGM about it as well.

Apparently it’s been a mini-industry amongst RSM neo-confederate types since at least the mid-90’s— churning out revisionist crap about black ‘confederate soldiers’.
As pernicious and evil as other forms of revisionism.

220 albusteve  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:21:22pm

re: #205 Spare O’Lake

How can a State Governor, sworn to uphold the Constitution of the US and of his State, honestly believe that slavery is not one of the civil war issues that was “most significant for Virginia”?
I say he cannot, and therefore I say he is dishonest and is in violation of his oath of office which he swore on January 16, 2010.

[Video]”That all men are by nature equally free and independent and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.”
- Section 1, Virginia Declaration of Rights

simple…it’s a brazen lie, and he knows it….people do that stuff

221 justaminute  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:22:08pm

re: #214 Alouette

Oh come on, I had the best big hair ever.


/

222 reine.de.tout  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:22:38pm

re: #217 Cannadian Club Akbar

The music was good. Even the disco music. Down ding away.:(

The music was danceable.

223 Lidane  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:23:43pm

re: #214 Alouette

The 1970’s: Worst. Fashion. Decade. Ever.

The 80’s definitely gave the 70’s a run for their money in that. Zipper jackets, parachute pants, neon, leg warmers….the list goes on.

That doesn’t even begin to cover the mallrat hair that had to be built with several cans of Aqua Net on a daily basis. I swear, once my hair finally protested all of the perms and processing when I was 16, I was secretly relieved. Heh.

224 MrSilverDragon  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:23:51pm

re: #222 reine.de.tout

The music was danceable.

“Dancing Queen” by Abba. One of the first 45s I ever had. Still love that song. I have no shame.

225 badger1970  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:24:10pm

re: #222 reine.de.tout

The music was danceable.

Like this?

Youtube Video

226 Lidane  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:24:44pm

re: #224 MrSilverDragon

“Dancing Queen” by Abba. One of the first 45s I ever had. Still love that song. I have no shame.

There is no shame in liking ABBA. None.

Everyone will dance to an ABBA song if they’re drunk enough.

227 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:25:00pm

re: #223 Lidane

The 80’s definitely gave the 70’s a run for their money in that. Zipper jackets, parachute pants, neon, leg warmers…the list goes on.

That doesn’t even begin to cover the mallrat hair that had to be built with several cans of Aqua Net on a daily basis. I swear, once my hair finally protested all of the perms and processing when I was 16, I was secretly relieved. Heh.

Dinnerjacket still wears a “members only” jacket.

228 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:25:25pm

re: #206 Charles

17 hate mails so far.

Why don’t you choose the most inbred, mouth-breathing, misspelled, hysterical screechy diatribe and post it for our enjoyment?

229 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:25:27pm

re: #224 MrSilverDragon

“Dancing Queen” by Abba. One of the first 45s I ever had. Still love that song. I have no shame.

I love that song.

230 Enkidu90046  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:25:56pm

At least the complete fiction that the civil war was not almost entirely about slavery is one more place in which the racist right and the loony left converge to some degree.

231 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:26:11pm

re: #219 iceweasel

The LGM link I gave links to a Civil War blog by an academic that debunks much of that material. There’s other stuff over at LGM about it as well.

Apparently it’s been a mini-industry amongst RSM neo-confederate types since at least the mid-90’s— churning out revisionist crap about black ‘confederate soldiers’.
As pernicious and evil as other forms of revisionism.

The one thing I would like to know from that article is who is the author? “Davenoon” is listed as the author, but I can’t find anything on the site that identifies who that is.

232 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:26:21pm

re: #218 Mad Al-Jaffee

So—Did she go backstage on Sat?

233 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:26:53pm

ARRRGGHH!
Man, my Gov ticks me off.

234 reine.de.tout  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:27:01pm

re: #225 badger1970

Like this?


[Video]

That’s hilarious!

235 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:27:26pm

re: #231 Walter L. Newton

The one thing I would like to know from that article is who is the author? “Davenoon” is listed as the author, but I can’t find anything on the site that identifies who that is.

Never mind… his name is Dave Noon… they run the name together and it looked like a screen name…

236 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:28:12pm

re: #232 Decatur Deb

So—Did she go backstage on Sat?

Is that what the kids are calling it these days?

237 justaminute  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:28:21pm

re: #224 MrSilverDragon

I would put Dancin Queen on loud in the mornings to get my kids out of bed . Nothin like a good screem of “Moomm” in the morning.

238 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:28:25pm

re: #234 reine.de.tout

That’s hilarious!

The guy dances like Quagmire from Family Guy. At least in the beginning.

239 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:29:03pm

re: #238 Cannadian Club Akbar

The guy dances like Quagmire from Family Guy. At least in the beginning.

Giggity.

240 Ericus58  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:29:38pm

Charles, if I send a message thru the “Contact” section as shown ini the upper left side panel on the page - does that go to you directly?
I’d like to send you some info.
Thanks

241 reine.de.tout  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:29:43pm

re: #225 badger1970

Like this?


[Video]

OK, I’m gonna get up now and take this “lesson”, see how I do.
LOL.

242 MrSilverDragon  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:29:59pm

re: #226 Lidane

There is no shame in liking ABBA. None.

Everyone will dance to an ABBA song if they’re drunk enough.

When my wife and I were having our after wedding procession, we played “I Do I Do I Do I Do I Do”. It was perfect!

243 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:30:22pm

Not all 70s music was disco. I’m at work, so I can’t post YouTube examples, but there was Parliament, Funkadelic, Johnny “Guitar” Watson, Pink Floyd, AC/DC, Skynyrd, etc.

244 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:30:55pm

re: #214 Alouette

The 1970’s: Worst. Fashion. Decade. Ever.

I’d have to gve that to the 1670’s

Seriously, powdered faces, bows and buckles with elaborate wigs - for men! In context, even bell bottoms weren’t that bad!

245 MrSilverDragon  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:30:59pm

re: #243 Mad Al-Jaffee

Not all 70s music was disco. I’m at work, so I can’t post YouTube examples, but there was Parliament, Funkadelic, Johnny “Guitar” Watson, Pink Floyd, AC/DC, Skynyrd, etc.

Starland Vocal Band. ‘nuff said.

/

246 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:31:31pm

Someone had to do it.
Youtube Video

247 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:32:13pm

re: #232 Decatur Deb

For a more serious answer, the one date we had was one of those first dates where pretty early on we could both tell it wasn’t going to lead to anything. I definitely wasn’t feeling it.

248 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:32:19pm
249 iceweasel  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:32:20pm

re: #231 Walter L. Newton

The one thing I would like to know from that article is who is the author? “Davenoon” is listed as the author, but I can’t find anything on the site that identifies who that is.

He’s an asst prof at U Alaska. Writes a lot for the Minnesota Independent, LGM, Edge of the American West, etc.

LGM just changed hosting companies and I think the CV pages there are messed up now. Anyway, yeah, Noon’s legit and well-regarded.

250 Jaerik  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:32:25pm

Do these states (like Texas) really think threatening to secede again would go any better for them? If anything, they’re at even more of an economic, military, and industrial disadvantage than they were the first time around.

251 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:32:58pm

re: #245 MrSilverDragon

Starland Vocal Band. ‘nuff said.

/

I have a good friend (fellow local musician) who used to tour with them.

252 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:33:17pm
253 Gus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:33:44pm

Good opinion at the Washington Post:

Bob McDonnell can’t change Virginia’s history of slavery
By Colbert King

Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell’s decision to recognize April as Confederate History Month in the Commonwealth is within his rights as governor. He also is at liberty to word the proclamation any way he wants. But he cannot change the history of that shameful era in American life.

The governor’s proclamation makes no mention of slavery. Instead, he speaks about the “sacrifices of Confederate leaders, soldiers and citizens during the Civil War.” My great grandfather and his siblings also lived in the area of Culpeper, Virginia in the 1800s. They weren’t citizens or soldiers, however. They were slaves. They are a matter of record — listed by name as property of a white Culpeper County family — in the Culpeper County courthouse.

The Confederacy that McDonnell commemorates defended a way of life that was dedicated to keeping my family in bondage. It is, as I’ve said, within McDonnell’s rights to call attention to Virginia’s Confederate history. It is wrong, however, for the governor to ignore the evils of that period, including the reasons so much blood was shed and so many lives were lost or left in ruin in the first place. By omission in the proclamation, Virginians of African American heritage count for nothing…now, as then.

254 reine.de.tout  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:35:10pm

re: #241 reine.de.tout

OK, I’m gonna get up now and take this “lesson”, see how I do.
LOL.

Hm.
My feet keep wanting to do swing or jitterbug.

255 Lidane  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:35:59pm

re: #248 Cato the Elder

And the idiots will never be the wiser, because they don’t watch anything but Fox News, and anyway Rachel Madcow is a notorious lesbian, and everything’s right with the world.

And there is no such thing as an EVIL CORPORATION run by a smirking old racist prick who laughs while he pulls his strings.

End of story.

Speaking of old Rupert, this made me laugh. Either he doesn’t watch his own networks, or he’s being deliberately dense:

Murdoch: ‘I Don’t Think’ Fox News ‘Should Be Supporting The Tea Party’

256 Randall Gross  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:36:01pm

re: #243 Mad Al-Jaffee

Not all 70s music was disco. I’m at work, so I can’t post YouTube examples, but there was Parliament, Funkadelic, Johnny “Guitar” Watson, Pink Floyd, AC/DC, Skynyrd, etc.

Youtube Video

257 Cato the Elder  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:36:19pm

Just to clarify things to the utmost:

Mandy, Fox News is an EVIL CORPORATION.

Tell me I’m wrong.

258 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:37:10pm

re: #247 Mad Al-Jaffee

Bummer, or not.

259 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:37:13pm

re: #257 Cato the Elder

Just to clarify things to the utmost:

Mandy, Fox News is an EVIL CORPORATION.

Tell me I’m wrong.

With hot chicks.
/I don’t watch any of them.

260 garhighway  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:37:14pm

re: #257 Cato the Elder

Just to clarify things to the utmost:

Mandy, Fox News is an EVIL CORPORATION.

Tell me I’m wrong.

I think it’s spelled EBBILL.

261 Gus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:37:46pm

National GOP candidates for 2012 - the short list:

Governor Bob McDonnell (R-VA)

Next!

262 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:38:03pm

re: #244 LudwigVanQuixote

I’d have to gve that to the 1670’s

Seriously, powdered faces, bows and buckles with elaborate wigs - for men! In context, even bell bottoms weren’t that bad!

Little Fredericks of Hollywood kitten heel mules on grown men with government jobs.

OK, the 1600s were pretty rocky, fashionwise.

263 iceweasel  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:38:11pm

re: #257 Cato the Elder

Just to clarify things to the utmost:

Mandy, Fox News is an EVIL CORPORATION.

Tell me I’m wrong.

Murdoch will say anything. We’re not even in the realm of plausible deniability here, so I don’t know how he thinks he can get away with this:

As ThinkProgress and others have documented, for over a year now, Fox News has promoted and celebrated the anti-Obama Tea Party movement. But at a forum for the public affairs TV series, The Kalb Report, last night, Rupert Murdoch, the CEO of Fox’s parent company, said that the network should not be “supporting” the movement:

The mogul was peppered with a host of questions related to his media empire’s political leanings, and in each case fought the perception that he’s made his fortune by catering to the conservative audience. Asked by an official at the progressive watchdog group, Media Matters, whether it was ethical for officials at Fox to promote the Tea Party movement (as has been documented on some occasion) he replied without hesitation.

“No. I don’t think we should be supporting the Tea Party or any other party. But I’d like to investigate what you are saying before condemning anyone.”

If Murdoch does “investigate” Fox’s support of the Tea Party, he will not only find that network has given the conservative protests blanket, celebratory coverage, but has even branded some of them as being “FNC Tax Day Tea Parties“:

264 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:38:17pm

Snip from a swamp…

“Rick Santelli is the 21st century PAUL REVERE….the Tea Party is the new Revolutionary Army….”

It’s only getting crazier!

265 [deleted]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:38:20pm
266 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:38:56pm

re: #257 Cato the Elder

Just to clarify things to the utmost:

Mandy, Fox News is an EVIL CORPORATION.

Tell me I’m wrong.

Run by an evil, horrible, hypocritical, two faced scumbag named Murdoch.

267 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:39:50pm

re: #261 Gus 802

I want Olympia Snowe to say, “Enough of this fucking bullshit.”

However, she’s been marginalized to the extent that she would get close to zero support in the modern GOP.

I have a very faint, fluttering hope that that national GOP will condemn this move by McDonnell. However, that is a feeble hope.

268 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:41:19pm

Actually, I really do want to bring this to people’s attention.

If you know what the Milgram experiment was, be prepared to be horrified. If you don’t then you need to see this.

Youtube Video

269 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:41:31pm

re: #265 LudwigVanQuixote

There are some problems with the Milgram experiments, but they still serve as a severe caution about the nature of authority and subservience.

270 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:42:09pm

Fox News is mainstream MSM.

271 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:42:39pm

re: #265 LudwigVanQuixote

I saw something on NatGeo where a shrink played a Warden and his guys were guards. The had people play inmates. Both fell into their rolls so much, the experiment was canceled. Scary stuff.

272 iceweasel  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:42:48pm

re: #269 Obdicut

There are some problems with the Milgram experiments, but they still serve as a severe caution about the nature of authority and subservience.

What are the problems?

273 Gus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:43:09pm

re: #266 LudwigVanQuixote

Run by an evil, horrible, hypocritical, two faced scumbag named Murdoch.

Yeah, the two faces of Fox. On the one hand you have the faux puritanism of Fox News. On the other you have Fox Entertainment. It’s astonishing to see the moral disconnect between fans of Fox News with Fox Entertainment being an integral part of the corporation. For example, you have the Fox News types that are completely paranoid about the movie Avatar which is a Twentieth Century Fox Film Corporation production.

274 Cato the Elder  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:43:53pm

re: #266 LudwigVanQuixote

Run by an evil, horrible, hypocritical, two faced scumbag named Murdoch.

Who was nicely portrayed as an evil, horrible, hypocritical, two-faced scumbag fixing national elections in the great BBC trilogy “House of Cards”.

Of course he’s long since set his sights on America, and Sarah Palin is his meat-puppet of choice.

275 iceweasel  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:43:58pm

re: #268 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually, I really do want to bring this to people’s attention.

If you know what the Milgram experiment was, be prepared to be horrified. If you don’t then you need to see this.


[Video]

I think the BBC replicated the Stanford Prison Experiment recently too. Not sure how they could have done that; I *think* the psych guidelines for informed consent/use of human subjects would prohibit it being replicated in the US now.

276 bosforus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:44:21pm

re: #268 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually, I really do want to bring this to people’s attention.

If you know what the Milgram experiment was, be prepared to be horrified. If you don’t then you need to see this.
[Video]

It’s not evil if everyone else is doing it. Why would everyone else be doing it if it wasn’t right?

277 Gus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:44:29pm

re: #267 Obdicut

I want Olympia Snowe to say, “Enough of this fucking bullshit.”

However, she’s been marginalized to the extent that she would get close to zero support in the modern GOP.

I have a very faint, fluttering hope that that national GOP will condemn this move by McDonnell. However, that is a feeble hope.

We now await word from Michael Steele…

[crickets]

278 darthstar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:44:46pm

re: #186 Cannadian Club Akbar

OT- Drinking in a cop car? Um, not a good idea.
[Link: www.thesmokinggun.com…]

Oh, she just wants to par-tay!

279 iceweasel  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:44:48pm

re: #275 iceweasel

I think the BBC replicated the Stanford Prison Experiment recently too. Not sure how they could have done that; I *think* the psych guidelines for informed consent/use of human subjects would prohibit it being replicated in the US now.

The obvious solution, Mr Jimmah reminds me, is to have people sign a reality teevee contract now first. /

280 Cato the Elder  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:45:15pm

re: #268 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually, I really do want to bring this to people’s attention.

If you know what the Milgram experiment was, be prepared to be horrified. If you don’t then you need to see this.

People who consider themselves “good people” will do anything for approval.

281 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:45:17pm

If I had ever expected anything of Frum, I would have been disappointed by his take on McDonnell’s proclamation.

It’s hard to imagine a more anodyne remembrance of the Confederacy than this issued by McDonnell.
282 JHW  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:45:50pm

re: #194 iceweasel

Thank you for that and your other posts on this. This one needs to be put to bed and buried as the revisionist crap it is;
The Confederate Congressional Record and Black Confederates; Evaporation of a Myth

Extract

The Confederate Senate April 30, 1863 passed a resolution that white officers of American black troops, or any white person involved at all in preparing them to be soldiers, should be put to death if captured. They also resolved that black troops captured should be sold into slavery, regardless whether they had been free or formerly slaves. In actuality captured black troops were frequently massacred by Confederate troops and this part of the resolution was a dead letter. On May 1, 1863 the Confederate House of Representatives passed the same resolution.

In both resolutions of the Confederate Senate on April 30, 1863 and the Confederate House on May 1st, condemn “to employ negroes in war against the Confederate States” as “inconsistent with the spirit of those usages which in modern warfare prevail among civilized nations,” and a “violation of the laws or usages of war among civilized nations.” In short to use black troops was a war crime in the minds of the members of the Confederate congress. This is an accusation that can be made only if you are not using black troops yourself.

The Journal of the Confederate Congress makes it quite clear that what Afro-Confederate troops that might have existed where in existence only briefly in the last few weeks of a Confederacy forced out of utter desperation and facing imminent defeat.

The Confederate archives were captured and were printed, along with the Union (not Northern, there were Western troops raised also for the United States armies, see California, Colorado, Nebraska, Kansas, Oregon, etc.) in the late 19th century , millions of pages of documents, reports, telegrams, etc., by commanders in the field ,almost 200 huge volumes of 1,000 or so pages each…..zero mention of Black Confederate troops.Available here, online at Cornell University.
War of The Rebellion, Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies

The governor might reflect on why there is such a thing as the state of West Virginia, admitted to the Union in 1863. And why every southern state except South Carolina raised troops for the Union. Simply put, wherever there were mountains, the plantation economy did not work.

The modern connection to revisionism;
Confederates on the Internet,, with a wealth of links.

And Confronting Civil War Revisionism;Why the South Went to War

And a superb book, first recommended here by Ojoe, by a woman disturbed at the modern phenomenon of revisionism, she went to the sources, the soldiers’ letters and diaries to see what they thought were the causes of the war. They damn sure weren’t crying about tariffs .
When this Cruel War is Over; Soldiers, Slavery and The Civil War

This subject infuriates me, my grt-gf died in 1932, a Michigan cavalryman. I have his saber here within 10 feet. He lost his brother and 3 brothers-in law. On the other side, my mom’s grandfathers, ditto, from New York, all killed so some scum could live off others’ sweat.

283 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:45:52pm

re: #277 Gus 802

We now await word from Michael Steele…

[crickets]

The crickets ain’t gonna show.
;)

284 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:46:15pm

re: #272 iceweasel

Any social experiment generally has a set of problems related to selection of participants— these are not a random sample of people, but volunteers for an experiment— related to the non-double-blind nature of the experiment— the researchers/confederates may be influencing results.

It’s a very important study, but it’s also important to note that Milgram violated many ethical concerns in setting up the test in the first place.

285 darthstar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:46:46pm

re: #267 Obdicut

I want Olympia Snowe to say, “Enough of this fucking bullshit.”

However, she’s been marginalized to the extent that she would get close to zero support in the modern GOP.

I have a very faint, fluttering hope that that national GOP will condemn this move by McDonnell. However, that is a feeble hope.

Snowe could change parties and be guaranteed reelection…she’s quite popular up there in lobsterland.

286 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:46:55pm

re: #271 Cannadian Club Akbar

I saw something on NatGeo where a shrink played a Warden and his guys were guards. The had people play inmates. Both fell into their rolls so much, the experiment was canceled. Scary stuff.

That’s the Stanford prison experiment.

The question you need to ask yourself when you see such things is: would you still remember your moral compass?

It is a frightening question.

I know what the Milgram Experiment was. I am confident I would recognize such an experiment if someone tried to put me in one. So I would refuse for sure in that case.

But the real question is, are there cases where obedience to authority could cause me to break with my conscience?

Of course I would love to say “no! never!” absolutely.

I honestly believe that is is true. But then again I have never faced a real test of that. Take the classic ethical case of evil soldiers order you to murder someone. I honestly believe that if I were handed a gun and told to shoot an innocent, or the evil people would shoot me, I would resolve to go out trying to shoot the evil people.

Of course I want to believe that too. And of course, I have never been tested either, thank Hashem.

But two things makes me think I likely would act that are not not bravado. For my whole life, I have hated arbitrary, cruel and petty authority. I do not hate legitimate and just authority, but the abusive and stupid kind causes me to want to fight. The other thing is that I honestly worry about the possibility of failing such a test if it materialized for real. I don’t think people who are likely to fail, worry about not failing.

Please Hashem none of us ever faces such a test for real.

287 Cato the Elder  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:47:04pm

re: #277 Gus 802

We now await word from Michael Steele…

[crickets]

Michael Steele has ancestors who fought in the Negro Slave Confederate Brigade, and he’s working on the genealogy as we speak.

288 Gus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:47:08pm

re: #283 Varek Raith

The crickets ain’t gonna show.
;)

Perhaps if we get little tiny cricket whips, and chains.

/

289 garhighway  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:48:25pm

re: #270 Spare O’Lake

Fox News is mainstream MSM.

If you mean they are not significantly different from most mass media, then I would respectfully disagree. (BTW: “Mainstream MSM” is redundant.) I think FNC is substantively different than (for example) the new operations of the big three networks. I think that the big three really try to get the story right. They succeed or fail to varying degrees story-to-story, day to day, but their goal is good and honest journalism.

FNC, on the other hand, was founded with an eye towards promoting a political viewpoint, hired a Republican political operative to run the place to execute on that mission, and does so quite competently every day. You cannot watch them for any length of time and not get that. They are a propaganda channel, on purpose and by design.

FWIW

290 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:48:45pm

re: #285 darthstar

I’d much rather have her reform the GOP, but I think she’s been completely sidelined and couldn’t do it. I think she didn’t see this coming, or perhaps didn’t feel that it was her fight.

291 avanti  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:48:50pm

re: #259 Cannadian Club Akbar

With hot chicks.
/I don’t watch any of them.

Even the wife made a comment about the hot, 40 something red head on the a fox financial network that wore a skirt literally slit down the middle to her crouch. She said, “You can almost see her cooch, she must be worried about her job ”
I noticed too, but was not all that concerned.

292 Ebetty  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:49:24pm

However idiotic Gov. McDonnell may be, he is not alone. There is nothing defensible about issuing a proclamation, especially to folks outside of the Old Richmond mindset. However, for folks to point to the GOP as the home o’ the racists exclusively is absurd. Democrats should rebuke Andrew Jackson for his inherent racism instead of hosting Jefferson-Jackson Day dinners. Racism must not be tolerated in any of our leaders, anymore. Instead of partisan sniping, let us remember the Constitution. Also, this WSJ article lays out the racist ideology and commentary of the Democrats. All that said, the state of the inner cities is a pox on all their houses. Until that is cleaned up, from schools to businesses and basic safety, conversations should be directed to making a positive change where it matters most.

293 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:49:32pm

re: #275 iceweasel

I think the BBC replicated the Stanford Prison Experiment recently too. Not sure how they could have done that; I *think* the psych guidelines for informed consent/use of human subjects would prohibit it being replicated in the US now.

IN the US for sure.

Now even more creepy than Milgram, is later work in the 70’s where the researchers did a variant, giving real shocks to a puppy.

They wanted to remove the chance that the test subject went along because they sensed something was faked.

I’ll look up the researchers names for you if you want, but that is a true case of unethical science. Also I remember the results. Out of 20 some men and 15 or so women, only four men stopped shocking (for real) the puppy).

294 Cato the Elder  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:49:44pm

re: #270 Spare O’Lake

Fox News is mainstream MSM.

You are mainstream deranged.

295 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:49:54pm

re: #277 Gus 802

That twit will claim there were black confederates because he had some in his family.

296 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:50:18pm

re: #292 Ebetty

Tired, and lame.

297 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:50:33pm

The only FNC show I watch is Red Eye. It’s the only talk show I watch, and one of the funniest shows on tv. And if you disagree with me, you’re probably a racist homophobe who eats puppies.

298 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:50:45pm

re: #292 Ebetty

That’s an opinion piece, not an article.

299 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:50:55pm

re: #291 avanti

Even the wife made a comment about the hot, 40 something red head on the a fox financial network that wore a skirt literally slit down the middle to her crouch. She said, “You can almost see her cooch, she must be worried about her job ”
I noticed too, but was not all that concerned.

Great. Now I have to watch!!
///

300 garhighway  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:51:00pm

re: #292 Ebetty

However idiotic Gov. McDonnell may be, he is not alone. There is nothing defensible about issuing a proclamation, especially to folks outside of the Old Richmond mindset. However, for folks to point to the GOP as the home o’ the racists exclusively is absurd. Democrats should rebuke Andrew Jackson for his inherent racism instead of hosting Jefferson-Jackson Day dinners. Racism must not be tolerated in any of our leaders, anymore. Instead of partisan sniping, let us remember the Constitution. Also, this WSJ article lays out the racist ideology and commentary of the Democrats. All that said, the state of the inner cities is a pox on all their houses. Until that is cleaned up, from schools to businesses and basic safety, conversations should be directed to making a positive change where it matters most.

Yep: nothing to see here. Just keep moving, people.

/

301 bosforus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:51:12pm

I participated in a social experiment once. Four of us in separate rooms (anonymously, I never saw the other participants if indeed there were others) with computer screens deciding how to divvy up money amongst ourselves. I got greedy one turn and took all the money for myself. The next time around I was given $0. I say I was greedy, but I was really just having fun with it. We got to keep the money at the end of the experiment and we got some pizza, too. It was fun.

302 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:51:17pm

re: #292 Ebetty

Would you like bbq sauce with your strawman and tu quoque???

303 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:52:00pm

re: #297 Mad Al-Jaffee

The only FNC show I watch is Red Eye. It’s the only talk show I watch, and one of the funniest shows on tv. And if you disagree with me, you’re probably a racist homophobe who eats puppies.

Hush puppies? Me likey!!

304 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:52:29pm

re: #297 Mad Al-Jaffee

The only FNC show I watch is Red Eye. It’s the only talk show I watch, and one of the funniest shows on tv. And if you disagree with me, you’re probably a racist homophobe who eats puppies.

And worse than Hitler.
;)

305 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:52:34pm

re: #294 Cato the Elder

Murdoch: Palin not on Fox as journalist
Linky:
thehill.com

306 tnguitarist  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:52:46pm

Should I go take my Confederate flag off the bedroom window and hang it outside now?//

307 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:53:35pm

re: #225 badger1970

Like this?


[Video]

Armi ya Danni and the Star Trek Disco dancers

Youtube Video

308 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:53:39pm

re: #302 Varek Raith

Strawman - Check
But they did it first- Check
Link to Opinion piece by Murdoch owned WSJ - Check.

309 Gus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:53:44pm

re: #292 Ebetty

Oh. I see. This really isn’t about Governor Bob McDonnell of Virginia. It’s really about the Democrats. Hell, might as well bring up the Dixiecrats of old while you’re at it.

Uh huh.

310 zora  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:53:47pm

re: #37 Raisin_Bran

why the fuck would a free black man volunteer to fight with the confederates? so that maybe one day he could be a slave? you are a dumbass!
and you are:
Proud Of Being Ignorant

theatlantic.com

311 bosforus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:53:51pm

I also walked out on what was supposed to be an oatmeal taste test but after sitting in a room for five minutes and no one coming in to talk to me I thought nuts to this and left. Perhaps it was a social experiment in disguise.

312 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:53:56pm

re: #306 tnguitarist

Should I go take my Confederate flag off the bedroom window and hang it outside now?//

I’d just buy drapes and hang them outside.
/

313 tnguitarist  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:54:09pm

re: #206 Charles

17 hate mails so far.

Please post some eventually. You can’t tease us like that.

314 Ebetty  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:54:36pm

re: #298 wrenchwench

the quotes are the meat, not that guys opinion. Pointing out both parties have racists isn’t tu quoque, it’s true. But if piling on makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, please do continue. It’s super fun. Next.

315 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:54:48pm

re: #244 LudwigVanQuixote

I’d have to gve that to the 1670’s

Seriously, powdered faces, bows and buckles with elaborate wigs - for men! In context, even bell bottoms weren’t that bad!

That was just the pampered nobility!

316 tnguitarist  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:55:03pm

re: #312 Cannadian Club Akbar

I’d just buy drapes and hang them outside.
/

They’re in use covering the furniture on my porch.

317 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:55:13pm

re: #311 bosforus

I also walked out on what was supposed to be an oatmeal taste test but after sitting in a room for five minutes and no one coming in to talk to me I thought nuts to this and left. Perhaps it was a social experiment in disguise.

Why are you anti-oatmeal?
/

318 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:55:30pm

re: #314 Ebetty

Actually, even if it were true, it would still be tu quoque. That’s the definition.

319 iceweasel  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:55:34pm

re: #286 LudwigVanQuixote


I know what the Milgram Experiment was. I am confident I would recognize such an experiment if someone tried to put me in one. So I would refuse for sure in that case.

But the real question is, are there cases where obedience to authority could cause me to break with my conscience?
[…]
The other thing is that I honestly worry about the possibility of failing such a test if it materialized for real. I don’t think people who are likely to fail, worry about not failing.

Please Hashem none of us ever faces such a test for real.

This is partly the philosophical problem of moral luck— a very counterintuitive and disturbing concept.
Some people have bad moral luck: they’re faced with choices and situations others are not. And some have good moral luck: they never find themselves in the sort of situation that would provide the same test of character.
So the philosophical question is: can one assign praise and blame to another on the basis of his moral luck? —

320 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:56:32pm

re: #314 Ebetty

the quotes are the meat, not that guys opinion. Pointing out both parties have racists isn’t tu quoque, it’s true. But if piling on makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, please do continue. It’s super fun. Next.

The guy was working to sell his book, or did you miss that part?

Mr. Bartlett is author of “Wrong on Race: The Democratic Party’s Buried Past,” to be published next month by Palgrave Macmillan, which is available from the OpinionJournal bookstore.
321 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:56:36pm

re: #289 garhighway

If you mean they are not significantly different from most mass media, then I would respectfully disagree. (BTW: “Mainstream MSM” is redundant.) I think FNC is substantively different than (for example) the new operations of the big three networks. I think that the big three really try to get the story right. They succeed or fail to varying degrees story-to-story, day to day, but their goal is good and honest journalism.

FNC, on the other hand, was founded with an eye towards promoting a political viewpoint, hired a Republican political operative to run the place to execute on that mission, and does so quite competently every day. You cannot watch them for any length of time and not get that. They are a propaganda channel, on purpose and by design.

FWIW

I find it a useful counterpoint to CNN, in a “know your enemy” kind of way. I will admit that I often can’t take more than a few minutes of it at a time, but that may actually be a good thing. As for the networks, I find them all biased to varying degrees.

322 garhighway  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:57:06pm

re: #318 Obdicut

Actually, even if it were true, it would still be tu quoque. That’s the definition.

Again with the facts.

323 Gus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:57:40pm

Just had a thought. Tu quoque is a type of logical ADD.

324 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:57:50pm

re: #315 Alouette

That was just the pampered nobility!

OK the other folks wore rags and you really don’t want to contemplate what women had to do for hygiene.

325 Ebetty  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:58:17pm

re: #309 Gus 802

By drawing oodles of attention to him, all you do is elevate him. Silly, really. Particularly when there are real people in need in Richmond. I live here, have for more than 20 years. This argument gets rehashed so much, it’s like a half-eaten order of Waffle House hashbrowns.

326 blueraven  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:58:32pm

re: #314 Ebetty

the quotes are the meat, not that guys opinion. Pointing out both parties have racists isn’t tu quoque, it’s true. But if piling on makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, please do continue. It’s super fun. Next.

Why don’t you read something current from Bruce Bartlett instead of posting an article by him from 2007, which in turn cites racism from decades and centuries ago?

These days Bartlett has been ostracized from the republican party.

327 tigger2005  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:58:40pm
Apparently he’s not too interested in promoting tourism by African Americans.

Well, at this rate they may need to be bussed in to march. But I’ll donate for food, tents, and Johnny-on-the Spots so not a dime will go to the formerly great state of Virginia.

328 bosforus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:58:41pm

re: #317 Cannadian Club Akbar

Why are you anti-oatmeal?
/

Big oatmeal ripped me off!

329 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:58:55pm

re: #309 Gus 802

Oh. I see. This really isn’t about Governor Bob McDonnell of Virginia. It’s really about the Democrats. Hell, might as well bring up the Dixiecrats of old while you’re at it.

Uh huh.

Has anyone mentioned yet that Robert Byrd was in the KKK?

//

330 iceweasel  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:59:10pm

re: #293 LudwigVanQuixote

IN the US for sure.

Now even more creepy than Milgram, is later work in the 70’s where the researchers did a variant, giving real shocks to a puppy.

They wanted to remove the chance that the test subject went along because they sensed something was faked.

I’ll look up the researchers names for you if you want, but that is a true case of unethical science. Also I remember the results. Out of 20 some men and 15 or so women, only four men stopped shocking (for real) the puppy).

I’ll have to check that out.
I’m somewhat surprised by the outcome of the experiment— not the number but the gender breakdown. IIRC there was some other set it which women were more likely to call for a stop. Not sure about the controls on that one though or if I’m remembering it right.

331 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:59:11pm

re: #325 Ebetty

It’s so silly to pay attention to what the government is doing, indeed.

/what?

332 Ebetty  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 12:59:44pm

re: #320 wrenchwench

Didn’t miss that part - I wasn’t talking about his book. Did you read the quotes, or are you deliberately diverting from them? Could care less about him, his opini9on, or his book. The quotes are listed and sourced, that’s all. Move along little doggies.

333 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:00:33pm

re: #329 SanFranciscoZionist

Has anyone mentioned yet that Robert Byrd was in the KKK?

//

Whoa!!! What!!
/

334 garhighway  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:00:49pm

re: #325 Ebetty

By drawing oodles of attention to him, all you do is elevate him. Silly, really. Particularly when there are real people in need in Richmond. I live here, have for more than 20 years. This argument gets rehashed so much, it’s like a half-eaten order of Waffle House hashbrowns.

To summarize:

Ignore that the Governor is a racist because there are poor people in Richmond.

Sure. Makes sense to me.

335 Gus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:01:06pm

re: #325 Ebetty

By drawing oodles of attention to him, all you do is elevate him. Silly, really. Particularly when there are real people in need in Richmond. I live here, have for more than 20 years. This argument gets rehashed so much, it’s like a half-eaten order of Waffle House hashbrowns.

Uh, we didn’t bring up the argument. Bob McDonnell brought up the argument by creating it and announcing Confederate History Month and omitting slavery. If you’re looking for the man with the foot in his mouth look no further than McDonnell.

336 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:01:12pm

re: #332 Ebetty

So you couldn’t care less about him, and yet you cite him in support of your argument.

And we’re silly for paying attention to the government.

You weren’t burdened by an overabundance of schooling, were you?

337 Ebetty  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:01:25pm

re: #326 blueraven

Wow, again with the silliness. I said the quotes at the bottom of the article. They are sourced. Duh. Talk about ADD.

338 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:01:55pm

re: #319 iceweasel

This is partly the philosophical problem of moral luck— a very counterintuitive and disturbing concept.
Some people have bad moral luck: they’re faced with choices and situations others are not. And some have good moral luck: they never find themselves in the sort of situation that would provide the same test of character.
So the philosophical question is: can one assign praise and blame to another on the basis of his moral luck? —

The answer is that true justice always takes the circumstances and mindset of the criminal into account as mitigating circumstances. However, mitigating does not mean exonerating. Evil has no messenger.

True Justice is impossible for mankind to even comprehend, let alone apply because we can never know the full circumstances, and we do not have the power to honestly set things right.

We can muddle through as best we can, but we do not have it in our power to bring back the murdered or to cause the murderer to repent.

If you want to get philosophical this is my inverse Pascal’s wager. If you don’t believe in Gd, you must conclude that in the end, justice can never actually exist and that entropy always wins.

339 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:02:16pm

re: #333 Cannadian Club Akbar

Whoa!!! What!!
/

That’s barbaric!!!
Youtube Video

340 wrenchwench  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:02:25pm

re: #332 Ebetty

Didn’t miss that part - I wasn’t talking about his book. Did you read the quotes, or are you deliberately diverting from them? Could care less about him, his opini9on, or his book. The quotes are listed and sourced, that’s all. Move along little doggies.

What are you deliberately diverting from? Oh, yes, your Governor. Ooops, I am elevating him by drawing attention to him. Sorry!

/

341 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:02:37pm

re: #294 Cato the Elder

You are mainstream deranged.

If I didn’t know you and LVQ better, I’d think you had both snapped and gone right off the deep end.

342 garhighway  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:02:39pm

re: #321 Spare O’Lake

I find it a useful counterpoint to CNN, in a “know your enemy” kind of way. I will admit that I often can’t take more than a few minutes of it at a time, but that may actually be a good thing. As for the networks, I find them all biased to varying degrees.

A counterpoint? I can see that. One tries to report, the other tries to proselytize. In that sense, one is counterpoint to the other. OK.

343 garhighway  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:04:18pm

re: #340 wrenchwench

What are you deliberately diverting from? Oh, yes, your Governor. Ooops, I am elevating him by drawing attention to him. Sorry!

/

Don’t you know that there are poor people in Richmond?

344 Lidane  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:04:57pm

re: #292 Ebetty

However, for folks to point to the GOP as the home o’ the racists exclusively is absurd.

No one has done that, so even bringing this up is absurd.

345 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:05:17pm

re: #343 garhighway

Don’t you know that there are poor people in Richmond?

I call bullshit!! RICHmond?
/

346 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:05:45pm

re: #343 garhighway

Don’t you know that there are poor people in Richmond?

I’m sure that racism has nothing to do with that.

347 garhighway  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:06:13pm

re: #345 Cannadian Club Akbar

I call bullshit!! RICHmond?
/

Let it not be said that Virginians don’t appreciate irony.

348 Gus  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:07:09pm

re: #329 SanFranciscoZionist

Has anyone mentioned yet that Robert Byrd was in the KKK?

//

Not yet! Be on the lookout for Al Gore’s father.

This like people saying, “well, you think McDonnell’s bad you should have seen what Al Gore’s father was like!” That in itself is not the point of current events. Al Gore’s father, for example, is not a current event.

349 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:07:20pm

re: #342 garhighway

A counterpoint? I can see that. One tries to report, the other tries to proselytize. In that sense, one is counterpoint to the other. OK.

CNN is better than it used to be, IMO, but to suggest that it is not biased is idiotarian to the max.

350 Ebetty  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:08:08pm

re: #336 Obdicut

Have my J. D. M. A. from Mr. Jefferson’s University, sweetheart.

The point is that Gov. McDonnell isn’t the star here. It’s the racism. Like so many before him, he is an absolute moron who caters to the hard right, which used to be the Dixiecrats. He is not the problem, racism is. But rather than embolden him, as the folks have done here today via the chat, chat, chatter; I believe we should work towards better policies that undermine his powerbase. Prove him wrong, work in the communities where he never dares to go. Instead of worrying about the proclamation, people who live here are more concerned with crime and equality in the workforce, with equal treatment from the state and local authorities. Far more important than him being an idiot, just as the Democrats have been idiots in the past.

351 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:08:10pm

BBL

352 Ebetty  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:10:17pm

BBIAB

353 iceweasel  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:10:31pm

Damn CNN and their damn librhul bias:

In Quest For ‘Hard News,’ CNN Investigates: ‘Homosexuality, Is It A Problem In Need Of A Cure?’

Clearly, “the best political team on television” was just not at its best, proving that CNN can’t be “trusted” to do even the most preliminary background research on its guests. The network provided the self-proclaimed former homosexual with a platform to promote his organization, the International Healing Foundation, without once challenging his credentials or claims of rehabilitation. In reality, Cohen has been kicked out of the The American Counseling Association and currently operates without any professional license or accreditation. His views on homosexuality have been discredited by every established medical organization and his ideas about gays are apparently only taken seriously by CNN bookers and producers.

CNN sucks, but it isn’t ‘liberal bias’ that makes it suck.

354 justaminute  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:11:10pm

re: #340 wrenchwench

Didn’t the Republican party already try to elevate him by having him give the Republican response to President Obama’s State of the Union?

355 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:11:13pm

re: #350 Ebetty

Then can you explain why you said you didn’t care about someone’s opinion that you cited in support of your position?

You’re also engaging in a spot of false dichotomy; we can both condemn this, and do positive actions. There is no truth or weight to your assertion that we should do one rather than the other.

What your aims are are clear.

And I am not your sweetheart.

356 garhighway  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:13:22pm

re: #349 Spare O’Lake

CNN is better than it used to be, IMO, but to suggest that it is not biased is idiotarian to the max.

As I said before, every network has hits and misses on individual pieces, (see 353), but there is no way you can watch FNC and CNN and not see that one is built as a propaganda machine and the other is a news channel.

If you can’t see that, you aren’t looking.

357 zora  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:14:40pm

re: #192 Cannadian Club Akbar

Ever see the Dave Chappel show where he is a Grand Wizard or whatever…and blind?

one of my favorites.

358 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:20:49pm

re: #353 iceweasel

Here is the reference to the puppy Milgram experiment.

Charles Sheridan and Richard King hypothesized that some of Milgram’s subjects may have suspected that the victim was faking, so they repeated the experiment with a real victim: a puppy who was given real electric shocks. They found that 20 out of the 26 participants complied to the end. The six that had refused to comply were all male (54% of males were obedient[27]); all 13 of the women obeyed to the end, although many were highly disturbed and some openly wept.[28]

Sheridan, C.L. and King, K.G. (1972) Obedience to authority with an authentic victim, Proceedings of the 80th Annual Convention of the American Psychological Association 7: 165-6.

Blass, Thomas (1999)The Milgram Paradigm After 35 Years: Some Things We Now Know About Obedience to Authority’ Journal of Applied Social Psychology. (Volume 29 Issue 5 pages 955-978) p. 968

359 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:21:33pm

re: #162 3eff Jeff

You should hang it upside down from the wing of a General Lee Toyota Supra.

Upding for twin turbo Mk4 Supra

360 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:22:28pm

re: #153 jamesfirecat

To me that depends on if you consider the Daily Show “News”…

It’s satire! I would say on the continuum, Daily Show is a satirical show about the news, Maddow is a news show.

361 darthstar  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:24:11pm

re: #290 Obdicut

I’d much rather have her reform the GOP, but I think she’s been completely sidelined and couldn’t do it. I think she didn’t see this coming, or perhaps didn’t feel that it was her fight.

I don’t think Snowe is interested enough in the GOP or any other party to be a change agent. She’s a pretty good moderate, as Senators go, but she’s not an active ‘go-getter’…and the only way the GOP will reform is if a group of its senior members work together to regain control of the party. Right now, they’re all individually afraid of their own base - or the most vocal aspects of their base - to actually work toward saving themselves as a party. That’s why people like Boehner and McConnell continually spout nonsense that’s only meant to further expand the division between the two parties.

362 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:24:29pm

re: #349 Spare O’Lake

CNN is better than it used to be, IMO, but to suggest that it is not biased is idiotarian to the max.

didn’t CNN just hire Erick “I’ll pull my shotgun on a census worker” Erickson?

CNN is garbage and often biased. Fox News is beyond garbage and beyond biased, it’s a focused propaganda machine whose sole job it is to manipulate opinion.

363 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:26:34pm

re: #314 Ebetty

the quotes are the meat, not that guys opinion. Pointing out both parties have racists isn’t tu quoque, it’s true. But if piling on makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, please do continue. It’s super fun. Next.

The Democratic party does not currently have an institutional party strategy of appealing and dogwhistling to racists. The institutional racists left after LBJ. Now they’re republicans.

Three points, top of the arc, nothing but net, your D is weak. Next!

364 ryannon  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:36:55pm

“Facing a storm of criticism, even from the newspaper that endorsed him for Governor, Virginia Republican Bob McDonnell told the Washington Post today that the reason why he didn’t mention slavery in his proclamation of “Confederate History Month” was because he doesn’t consider it a significant aspect of the Civil War.”

That echoes the statement that the Holocaust was merely a ‘detail’ of the Second World War by the French right-wing politician Jean-Marie Le Pen some years ago. These people seem to have amazingly similar thought-processes.

365 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:37:33pm

re: #69 albusteve

lighten up, that’s pretty harsh

No, it’s not harsh enough. Not even close.

William

366 Coachrichard  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 1:51:49pm

re: #176 albusteve

people are so fucking jumpy and presumptuous eh?

Why yes, yes you are

367 palomino  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 2:09:20pm

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

I’m not claiming I know if they did or didn’t. All I’ve seen in this thread is a few comment saying they didn’t, I find other material on the internet that says they did. I searching right now trying to find a authoritative counter point of view.

Do you have a link?

You’re unlikely to find any single “authoritative” point of view. This is the Civil War after all, the event that has inspired more literature than all our other wars combined.

The Confederate black soldier meme is largely just a path to a false equivalency argument, e.g., “blacks fought on both sides, so the South wasn’t racist.”

368 Raisin_Bran  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 3:16:11pm

re: #17 Obdicut

I’m back from class and I have taken the time to read all the replies and articles people responded with. I appreciate the information you have given.

I’m the offspring of a mixed race marriage and have a 1st generation Chinese-American roommate, so I’m not some white supremacist to clarify.

I apologize with the downding Obdicut, I’m new and it was unnecessary on my part looking back on it.

369 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Apr 7, 2010 3:56:29pm

re: #350 Ebetty

Have my J. D. M. A. from Mr. Jefferson’s University, sweetheart.

The point is that Gov. McDonnell isn’t the star here. It’s the racism. Like so many before him, he is an absolute moron who caters to the hard right, which used to be the Dixiecrats. He is not the problem, racism is. But rather than embolden him, as the folks have done here today via the chat, chat, chatter; I believe we should work towards better policies that undermine his powerbase. Prove him wrong, work in the communities where he never dares to go. Instead of worrying about the proclamation, people who live here are more concerned with crime and equality in the workforce, with equal treatment from the state and local authorities. Far more important than him being an idiot, just as the Democrats have been idiots in the past.

Forcing him to retract via bad press IS how this works. You smack down the racist dogwhistle, you make him look like a fool. This is how this works.

Meanwhile, I’ll be taking your false equivalency with democrats and lining my birdcage with it.


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