The Drillin’ Sistahs

Wingnuts • Views: 1,767

Taegan Goddard calls this the quote of the day, but I say it has to be the quote of the week, at least. Possibly the month.

A meeting of the minds, if you will. The stuff of legend.

“I knew that we’d be buddies when I met her when she said, ‘Drill here, drill now.’ And then I replied, ‘Drill, baby, drill’ and then we both said, ‘You betcha!’”

— Sarah Palin, quoted by the Wall Street Journal, recalling a previous meeting with Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN).

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205 comments
1 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:44:35am

I would hope a presidential candidate can speak in more than bumper sticker slogans.

2 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:45:19am

Was the statement closely followed with “Don’tcha know?”

Aw jeez…

3 jamesfirecat  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:46:38am

Damn it Charles none of the other three threads before this one have even hit triple digits yet, I can only post so fast!

4 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:46:44am

And the wingularity didn’t happen then and there? That should have opened up such a massive black hole that nothing could escape! That was two black holes merging.

5 Sigma_x  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:47:50am

Here’s a list of the ten poorest states.

50) Mississippi—Voted McCain
49) West Virginia—Voted McCain
48) Arkansas—Voted McCain
47) Kentucky—Voted McCain
46) Alabama—Voted McCain
45) Oklahoma—Voted McCain
44) New Mexico—Voted Obama
43) Tennessee—Voted McCain
42) Montana—Voted McCain
41) Louisiana—Voted McCain
40) South Carolina—Voted McCain

Can anyone explain this to me? And why is it now all of the sudden FOX News seems to come out on the side of actually PAYING taxes, with news that 47% of the American public didn’t pay Federal Income Taxes last year, because they didn’t make enough money? They’re positively fuming over there.

6 Sigma_x  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:49:48am

And how much you want to bet that those same ten states, across the board, would vote overwhelmingly for a Palin/Bachman ticket?

7 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:49:50am

And a Ding-A-Ling-A-Ding-Dong!

8 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:50:11am

re: #5 Sigma_x

Because the poor obviously don’t pay enough in taxes and the poor = the other. They’ve even convinced poor white folks that they are somehow being put upon.

9 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:50:41am

Is that the sound of the next seven ‘30 Rock’ episodes writing themselves?

(i love that show, btw)

10 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:50:42am

re: #5 Sigma_x

Yeah, that seems to be the outrageous outrage of the day. The “fiscal responsibility” crowd wants to tax the poor.

11 Gus  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:50:48am

Drill where? They make it sound so easy and speak as if producing oil domestically is some kind of magic bullet.

12 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:50:52am

re: #6 Sigma_x

No need to bet, they’d do it in a heart beat.

13 reine.de.tout  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:51:11am

re: #5 Sigma_x

Because … the people in the poorest states are just dumb?

What kind of explanation do you want?
Your comment isn’t related to the post topic, and you didn’t link to whatever FOX babbling you mentioned, so I don’t really know what you’re talking about.

14 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:51:40am

re: #10 Killgore Trout

Yeah, that seems to be the outrageous outrage of the day. The “fiscal responsibility” crowd wants to tax the poor.

que? don’t the voting results imply that the poor wish to tax the poor?

15 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:51:40am

re: #11 Gus 802

In the space between their ears. Of course given the addition of the lesbian bondage fiasco there’s all kinds of meanings for “drill here drill now”.

16 garhighway  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:52:00am

re: #5 Sigma_x

Here’s a list of the ten poorest states.

50) Mississippi—Voted McCain
49) West Virginia—Voted McCain
48) Arkansas—Voted McCain
47) Kentucky—Voted McCain
46) Alabama—Voted McCain
45) Oklahoma—Voted McCain
44) New Mexico—Voted Obama
43) Tennessee—Voted McCain
42) Montana—Voted McCain
41) Louisiana—Voted McCain
40) South Carolina—Voted McCain

Can anyone explain this to me? And why is it now all of the sudden FOX News seems to come out on the side of actually PAYING taxes, with news that 47% of the American public didn’t pay Federal Income Taxes last year, because they didn’t make enough money? They’re positively fuming over there.

Fox News doesn’t give two shits and a damn about whether low earners pay taxes. They care that Rupert should pay LESS taxes. Everything else is a means to an end.

17 badger1970  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:52:29am

It took 15 post to get to that innuendo?

18 caution  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:52:41am

…. and people are worried about possible complications with the LHC? The anti-matter black hole in reason created by these two is much more troubling.

19 darthstar  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:53:03am

CBSSports.com has streaming video of The Master’s …watching Amen Corner while I get some work done…going to have to leave Bachmann Palin Overkill to you good folks for a while.

20 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:54:42am

re: #17 badger1970

It took 15 post to get to that innuendo?

eh, they’re both married…i don’t like going there. i’m not gonna play comment po-po, but i generally try to resist making sexual comments about married folks.

21 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:54:51am

re: #17 badger1970

Hey, someone had to do it.

22 Feline Fearless Leader  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:55:38am

Bachman Palin Overkill (BPO) doing a modified cover of Jesus Jones’ “Right Here, Right Now”? (Drill Here, Drill Now…)?

I’m not sure I want to see the YouTube video for that… O_o

23 Sigma_x  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:55:47am

re: #13 reine.de.tout

Here’s your link.

thefoxnation.com

And - in my mind, anyway - it has everything in the world to do with the thread topic. Because these two retarded harpy’s seem to keep crowing about how Obama wants to tax America out of existence. Both big Tea Party supporters, that brain-trust. And yet, this Tea Party movement doesn’t seem to grasp the very simple fact that their taxes have gone down under Obama.

For a party to not understand the very thing they’re named after doesn’t inspire much confidence in their intellectual acuity.

24 avanti  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:55:54am

re: #5 Sigma_x

Here’s a list of the ten poorest states.

50) Mississippi—Voted McCain
49) West Virginia—Voted McCain
48) Arkansas—Voted McCain
47) Kentucky—Voted McCain
46) Alabama—Voted McCain
45) Oklahoma—Voted McCain
44) New Mexico—Voted Obama
43) Tennessee—Voted McCain
42) Montana—Voted McCain
41) Louisiana—Voted McCain
40) South Carolina—Voted McCain

Can anyone explain this to me? And why is it now all of the sudden FOX News seems to come out on the side of actually PAYING taxes, with news that 47% of the American public didn’t pay Federal Income Taxes last year, because they didn’t make enough money? They’re positively fuming over there.

The rich blue states pay the highest taxes, so they are doing some wealth redistribution to help the red states that bitch about wealth redistribution. The red states should just refuse the feds money on principle.

25 hellointernet  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:56:06am

Coming this summer, from Hustler Video: “Who’s Nailin’ Palin 2: Drill, baby! Drill!!”

Which would be a better title than, say, “Who’s Nailin’ Palin 2: The Squeakuel”

26 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:56:07am

Tina Fay’s on SNL this week. Expect to see more Palin parodies.

27 CarleeCork  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:56:40am

re: #2 MrSilverDragon

Was the statement closely followed with “Don’tcha know?”

Aw jeez…

And a wink?

28 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:56:55am

re: #5 Sigma_x

Here’s a list of the ten poorest states.

50) Mississippi—Voted McCain
49) West Virginia—Voted McCain
48) Arkansas—Voted McCain
47) Kentucky—Voted McCain
46) Alabama—Voted McCain
45) Oklahoma—Voted McCain
44) New Mexico—Voted Obama
43) Tennessee—Voted McCain
42) Montana—Voted McCain
41) Louisiana—Voted McCain
40) South Carolina—Voted McCain

Can anyone explain this to me? And why is it now all of the sudden FOX News seems to come out on the side of actually PAYING taxes, with news that 47% of the American public didn’t pay Federal Income Taxes last year, because they didn’t make enough money? They’re positively fuming over there.

What’s the Matter with Kansas? by Thomas Frank.
Kansas isn’t one of the states listed but it usually votes the same way. Frank takes a look at the general phenomenon of working class and poor voters being persuaded to vote against what Frank considers to be their own interest.
(Frank is also the author of The Conquest of Cool, which I have cited many times here over the years.)

29 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:56:56am

Chris Rock: H’care Opponents Like Those Who Hated Martin Luther King

Youtube Video

30 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:57:36am

re: #27 CarleeCork

and starbursts.

31 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:57:58am

OT - this story looks like it came out one week too late (check out the second photo and caption)

32 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:58:33am

re: #24 avanti

Living in California and knowing how much (or I should say little) we receive back on our fed tax dollars I would love to end the welfare system to those states.

33 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:00:31am

re: #32 Dreggas

Living in California and knowing how much (or I should say little) we receive back on our fed tax dollars I would love to end the welfare system to those states.

Living in California and knowing how much your highly progressive tax structure contributes to your frequent budget crises, I’d think you’d love to make some fundamental changes to your tax structure!

34 avanti  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:01:29am

re: #32 Dreggas

Living in California and knowing how much (or I should say little) we receive back on our fed tax dollars I would love to end the welfare system to those states.

Maybe the GOP could introduce a bill to rid the country of that Commie wealth redistribution./

35 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:02:18am

re: #33 Aceofwhat?

Highly progressive tax structure? You mean like the part where it takes a super majority to raise any taxes or the part where they can’t raise property taxes?

Our budget problems are directly related to how hard it is to raise taxes in this state.

36 Spider Mensch  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:02:44am

where the heck is Cato? this is the cornucopia, the mother load! where is his snark where it is actually needed? should I check the previous palin thread…?

37 Sigma_x  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:02:48am

re: #32 Dreggas

Thanks to conservatives wing-nut idiots in California, they spend 45% more on prisons than they do on Universities.

What does that tell you?

38 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:02:49am

re: #34 avanti

Heh. They’d never get earmarks again that’s for sure.

39 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:03:50am

re: #37 Sigma_x

The prison industrial complex in this state is ridiculous. Another reason I hope the measures to legalize marijuana pass. It’s been decriminalized etc. for possession but dealing still lands people in jail.

40 Professor Chaos  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:03:54am

“I knew that we’d be buddies when I met her when she said, ‘I favor bumper sticker slogan solutions to complex problems.’ And then I replied, ‘I too am unserious about policy issues’ and then we both said, ‘America, fuck yeah!’”

Fix’t

41 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:04:19am

One of my anonymous hate mail stalkers just blew his own cover with his latest rant.

This may have to be a post.

42 Sigma_x  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:04:56am

re: #41 Charles

One of my anonymous hate mail stalkers just blew his own cover with his latest rant.

This may have to be a post.

Don’t talk about it - BE about it!

Post it.

43 SpaceJesus  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:05:04am

re: #41 Charles

One of my anonymous hate mail stalkers just blew his own cover with his latest rant.

This may have to be a post.


hannity?

44 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:05:10am

re: #36 Spider Mensch

I think Cato is going to love Sarah’s black velvet coat and 3 strands of pearls.

45 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:05:11am

re: #41 Charles

Bummer, for him!
Hooray for you!
Go, Mr. Beaumont!

46 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:05:21am

re: #35 Dreggas

Highly progressive tax structure? You mean like the part where it takes a super majority to raise any taxes or the part where they can’t raise property taxes?

Our budget problems are directly related to how hard it is to raise taxes in this state.

no, a “progressive tax structure” is the formal terminology for a tax system where the taxation percentages/rates increase with wealth - i.e. the richest are taxed with a much higher percentage than the middle or poor.

a progressive tax structure is, in very general terms, the opposite of a flat tax structure.

(not a higher AMOUNT, mind you, the rich will pay a higher amount even if the tax were flatter.)

47 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:06:05am

re: #43 SpaceJesus

hannity?

Rush?

48 Spider Mensch  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:06:06am

re: #25 hellointernet

Coming this summer, from Hustler Video: “Who’s Nailin’ Palin 2: Drill, baby! Drill!!”

Which would be a better title than, say, “Who’s Nailin’ Palin 2: The Squeakuel”


if I wasn’t blocked for unfettered surfin here at work…I’m sure there’s got to be some sarah palin look alike porn movies out there…she’s a fairly easy copy..brunette, hair up and her glasses…the rest they can just fill in..excuse the pun…;^)

49 avanti  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:06:13am

A plane flying over the masters with a banner commending on Wood’s Buddhist faith.

Tiger, did you mean “Bottyism” ( Not kidding)

50 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:06:26am

re: #41 Charles

let’s do this

51 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:07:17am

re: #49 avanti

OOh, the Masters will be pissed . They are control freaks.

52 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:07:41am

re: #46 Aceofwhat?

The progressive tax structure in this state has little to do with our budget issues and a lot more to do with the fucked up way in which our legislature operates along with a government by ballot initiative system which has been used to limit the ways in which the state can raise revenue’s while at the same time increase spending programs.

It doesn’t help that everyone wants these programs but when it comes time to pay for them they freak out.

53 reine.de.tout  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:08:32am

re: #32 Dreggas

Living in California and knowing how much (or I should say little) we receive back on our fed tax dollars I would love to end the welfare system to those states.

I’m confused.
Are you for helping poor people, or not?

54 reine.de.tout  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:09:10am

re: #41 Charles

One of my anonymous hate mail stalkers just blew his own cover with his latest rant.

This may have to be a post.

Oh, do it!

55 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:09:26am

re: #41 Charles

One of my anonymous hate mail stalkers just blew his own cover with his latest rant.

This may have to be a post.

I’m looking forward to seeing this one! Please, do post it!

56 avanti  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:09:28am

re: #51 prairiefire

OOh, the Masters will be pissed . They are control freaks.

Wonder who paid for the banner ?

57 CarleeCork  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:10:40am

re: #41 Charles

One of my anonymous hate mail stalkers just blew his own cover with his latest rant.

This may have to be a post.


Make it so!

58 Professor Chaos  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:10:47am

re: #56 avanti

Wonder who paid for the banner ?

Brit Hume?

59 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:11:34am

re: #52 Dreggas

The progressive tax structure in this state has little to do with our budget issues and a lot more to do with the fucked up way in which our legislature operates along with a government by ballot initiative system which has been used to limit the ways in which the state can raise revenue’s while at the same time increase spending programs.

It doesn’t help that everyone wants these programs but when it comes time to pay for them they freak out.

I disagree. The wealthy have the most variable incomes. During good years, the state is flush with funds and encounters a political climate where it is easier to pass spending bills. Then bad years arrive and the income to the state drops off dramatically, forcing the state to either cut back on services very drastically or raise taxes even further.

It’s not a novel phenomenon.

Note that here in Florida, we have fewer budget crises than you and we don’t even have a state income tax at all. Funny, isn’t it?

60 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:12:08am

re: #53 reine.de.tout

This is where part of me says they should see what really could happen when they vote against their interest. They think that somehow their money is going to some welfare queen in New York or somewhere else when in reality the money, plus some, is coming back to them and their state.

61 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:12:27am

DRILL HERE DRILL NOW


*twitch*

Tooo…many….jokes…brain…overwhelmed

62 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:13:33am

re: #59 Aceofwhat?

You have a property tax that can be raised correct? You can easily raise sales taxes correct? We can’t even do that here in California and yet we have more and more programs people want but won’t pay for. The only things they’re happy to raise taxes on are sin-taxes because everyone feels better taxing a small segment of the population.

63 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:14:11am

re: #59 Aceofwhat?

There’s drawbacks to that: sptimes.com

64 hellointernet  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:14:15am

re: #48 Spider Mensch

if I wasn’t blocked for unfettered surfin here at work…I’m sure there’s got to be some sarah palin look alike porn movies out there…she’s a fairly easy copy..brunette, hair up and her glasses…the rest they can just fill in..excuse the pun…;^)

Oh, it’s a real thing. “Palin” is spelled “Paylin” however. Not that I’ve ever seen it, mind you.

cough

65 Spider Mensch  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:14:21am

re: #49 avanti

A plane flying over the masters with a banner commending on Wood’s Buddhist faith.

Tiger, did you mean “Bottyism” ( Not kidding)


hmmm..if I put on a rainbow afro wig..and put it on a placard al’a “John 3:16” and show up at every golf tourney Tiger is in,..do you think they’ll show me on TV…like that moron that used to be in the crowd at all the dallas cowboy games???

66 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:14:46am

re: #56 avanti

If it was right over the course, that would be unusual. The Masters clears the airspace with August National.

67 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:15:13am

re: #41 Charles

One of my anonymous hate mail stalkers just blew his own cover with his latest rant.

This may have to be a post.

Victory dance!

Please tell me it was an accident, that he emailed from the wrong account :D

68 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:16:16am

re: #52 Dreggas

The progressive tax structure in this state has little to do with our budget issues and a lot more to do with the fucked up way in which our legislature operates along with a government by ballot initiative system which has been used to limit the ways in which the state can raise revenue’s while at the same time increase spending programs.

It doesn’t help that everyone wants these programs but when it comes time to pay for them they freak out.

Proposition 13! My exhibit A for why ballot initiatives should be illegal.

69 Spider Mensch  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:16:41am

re: #64 hellointernet

Oh, it’s a real thing. “Palin” is spelled “Paylin” however. Not that I’ve ever seen it, mind you.

cough


paylin…ok let’s think of good porno names for sistah sarah…Sarah Payload?? Sarah Packin? ehh..I got nothing..

70 reine.de.tout  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:18:15am

re: #60 Dreggas

This is where part of me says they should see what really could happen when they vote against their interest. They think that somehow their money is going to some welfare queen in New York or somewhere else when in reality the money, plus some, is coming back to them and their state.

Ah.
You know as well as I do there are no “welfare queens”. There are the occasional horror stories, but most people using assistance use it for a limited time to get through a tough crisis in their lives.

As for people voting against their interests - I voted McCain, and I’m in one of the states you mentioned (La.). I just have a different view of what’s in my best interest, than you do of what you think is in my best interest. So I’m not sure I would call the folks in any of the states stupid.

And our Governor (who I have absolutely no love or respect for) did decline some of the stimulus money, and was roundly criticized for it.

71 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:18:20am

re: #67 WindUpBird

I don’t think Charles will reveal personal info. Maybe a name if he/she is a public figure.

I think there are some professional journo lizards, guessing

72 Spider Mensch  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:19:50am

re: #69 Spider Mensch

paylin…ok let’s think of good porno names for sistah sarah…Sarah Payload?? Sarah Packin? ehh..I got nothing..


Sarah Porkin?..ok..I’l stop now..unless I come up with a really really good one…lol

73 drogheda  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:20:35am

re: #71 prairiefire

I don’t think Charles will reveal personal info. Maybe a name if he/she is a public figure.

Please, please, please let it be Dan Rather.

74 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:20:50am

re: #73 drogheda

Please, please, please let it be Dan Rather.

Or Helen Thomas

75 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:21:14am

HAHAHA! Must…resist…the gutter…in my…mind…
Lol.

76 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:21:21am

re: #63 WindUpBird

There’s drawbacks to that: [Link: www.sptimes.com…]

Please find attached evidence that school policies and practices need to improve. Note that this is not an equivalent statement to “we should just throw more money at it and see what happens”.

77 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:21:45am

re: #70 reine.de.tout

My 2 cents. As a liberal I do think it is in my own best interest to pay taxes that go to social services. I’m a believer in having an established social safety net. Society is better due to less crime and (eventually) more productive citizens.

78 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:22:03am

re: #74 Mad Al-Jaffee

You have my vote.

79 filetandrelease  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:23:48am

Sweet, wish we would. And I agree, comment of the month.

80 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:23:51am

re: #62 Dreggas

You have a property tax that can be raised correct? You can easily raise sales taxes correct? We can’t even do that here in California and yet we have more and more programs people want but won’t pay for. The only things they’re happy to raise taxes on are sin-taxes because everyone feels better taxing a small segment of the population.

I understand. Our total taxes paid, though, are a far smaller percentage than yours, IIRC.

The most widely accepted economic understanding of why Cali’s budget is so often shot to hell, despite collecting more total taxes from your inhabitants, is that (a) like you said, the inhabitants like to vote for spending or for pols who promise more spending and (b) you have a highly progressive income tax system which makes the spending increases seem affordable during boom years.

81 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:23:52am

re: #70 reine.de.tout

I know there’s no welfare queens. However I do know a lot of people who did abuse the system. It’s one of the risks taken when providing any help whatsoever. Just like the fact that the more populous states are going to always be providing more money to the less populous states when dividing up federal dollars.

Having been down and out before I was glad for the help i received and am glad it’s there for people. There’s just part of me sometimes that says “fine, you don’t want government help then we’ll stop sending all that money to your state”.

82 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:25:03am

re: #68 WindUpBird

Proposition 13! My exhibit A for why ballot initiatives should be illegal.

wait…people shouldn’t be allowed to vote on initiatives??

83 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:26:02am

re: #77 prairiefire

Don’t get me wrong. I am all for the safety net and government programs meant to provide social services etc. I know they are necessary and I pay my taxes knowing that if I needed that aid it would be there. I just think people don’t realize that a lot of the time and don’t realize that all of these things are a necessary evil.

84 reine.de.tout  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:26:17am

re: #77 prairiefire

My 2 cents. As a liberal I do think it is in my own best interest to pay taxes that go to social services. I’m a believer in having an established social safety net. Society is better due to less crime and (eventually) more productive citizens.

I don’t disagree with you one bit.

85 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:26:28am

re: #82 Aceofwhat?

Ace, we had a local election Tuesday. 95% of the tax increase propositions passed. I thought that was interesting. It’s not the norm.

86 claire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:27:26am

re: #11 Gus 802

Drill where? They make it sound so easy and speak as if producing oil domestically is some kind of magic bullet.

There are fields all over the US that can be further developed and also, obviously offshore. When gas was over $4/gal 2 years ago, just the declaration that we would start drilling more dropped the price down below $3/gal almost instantly. Also, it would save/create tons of oil and gas industry jobs here, raise tax revenues in states that depend on gases from production (like NM, which gets like 50% of the entire state budget for schools from oil and gas production) and keep more $ here rather than giving it to the Middle East. Not a magic bullet, but well worth doing.

87 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:27:32am

re: #82 Aceofwhat?

wait…people shouldn’t be allowed to vote on initiatives??

They’re an end run around representative democracy. See gay marriage bans in states.

88 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:27:39am

Drill, baby dri-ill,
Makes yer children ill,
She’s old enough to know better,
So drill, baby drill.

89 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:28:00am

re: #84 reine.de.tout

I admire how much LA’s Catholic charities provide things there. You posted it.

90 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:28:12am

re: #87 WindUpBird


And they tend to be deceptively worded.

91 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:28:16am

re: #76 Aceofwhat?

Please find attached evidence that school policies and practices need to improve. Note that this is not an equivalent statement to “we should just throw more money at it and see what happens”.

Money=resources. I know too many teachers, most of then in underfunded districts with giant class sizes. Money matters to schools.

92 Political Atheist  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:29:06am

re: #11 Gus 802

We can buy Wahhabi oil or we can buy our own. Follow the money.

93 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:29:23am

re: #77 prairiefire

My 2 cents. As a liberal I do think it is in my own best interest to pay taxes that go to social services. I’m a believer in having an established social safety net. Society is better due to less crime and (eventually) more productive citizens.

As a conservative, i think that it is my responsibility to donate a significant portion of my income to charities and other organizations who provide social services. I believe that i and my fellow neighbors can provide a more effective and loving social safety net than the government (although I do not believe in a complete absence of a govt safety net), and at less cost.

94 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:29:50am

re: #90 Dreggas

And they tend to be deceptively worded.

yep! I fucking can’t stand them. I think every state has some psycho tax protestor who files a crazy ballot initiative every election. You know, the guys who listen to a lot of Art bell and think the federal income tax is voluntary. Oregon has one and Washington has one, and they’re both basically hucksters.

95 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:30:23am

re: #85 prairiefire

Ace, we had a local election Tuesday. 95% of the tax increase propositions passed. I thought that was interesting. It’s not the norm.

That is very interesting. What’s your take, from what you’ve heard around town and from local news sources?

96 reine.de.tout  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:31:09am

re: #89 prairiefire

I admire how much LA’s Catholic charities provide things there. You posted it.

It is incredible.
There’s also health care.
The city’s Catholic hospital is the best in town.
I pay for a higher-priced insurance because it includes that hospital, and my other insurance choices don’t.

97 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:31:23am

re: #93 Aceofwhat?

As a conservative, i think that it is my responsibility to donate a significant portion of my income to charities and other organizations who provide social services. I believe that i and my fellow neighbors can provide a more effective and loving social safety net than the government (although I do not believe in a complete absence of a govt safety net), and at less cost.

Charities are not the equivalent of an actual social safety net. If you took away say, our state-funded care for the developmentally disabled, there is no way in hell a charity would pick up the slack.

98 reine.de.tout  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:32:09am

re: #93 Aceofwhat?

As a conservative, i think that it is my responsibility to donate a significant portion of my income to charities and other organizations who provide social services. I believe that i and my fellow neighbors can provide a more effective and loving social safety net than the government (although I do not believe in a complete absence of a govt safety net), and at less cost.

See:
Catholic Charities of Baton Rouge

99 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:33:04am

re: #87 WindUpBird

They’re an end run around representative democracy. See gay marriage bans in states.

Well, when they come up with a law that is radically different than what the representatives would have produced, one could argue that the democracy isn’t very representative.

And they don’t have any more right to be unconstitutional than any other law, right?

I do get the part about the poor wording, though. Passing a law via confusion is just all kinds of wrong.

100 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:33:41am

re: #97 WindUpBird

Even more so when it comes to state mental health care. Charities are great for cuddly subjects like hospitals and cancer research, things that are easy to advertise and easy to convince people of the value of. Not so great at the tougher stuff that doesn’t translate to feel-good bumper stickers.

101 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:34:24am

re: #93 Aceofwhat?

That relies on your neighbors and their generosity. You may be generous but the mizer down the road might not, thus the safety net would have holes.

To my mind if you want good schools, good roads and freeways, clean water, safety (see police and fire) and other modern comforts/necessities those are best provided for by government.

Growing up in NY I remember property taxes went towards the schools and property taxes could go up or down. Here in California they can’t go up, despite the number and sizes of homes here and thus funding for schools is lacking.

102 avanti  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:34:58am

re: #66 prairiefire

If it was right over the course, that would be unusual. The Masters clears the airspace with August National.

More on the banner.

103 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:35:19am

re: #97 WindUpBird

Charities are not the equivalent of an actual social safety net. If you took away say, our state-funded care for the developmentally disabled, there is no way in hell a charity would pick up the slack.

looks like you missed a sentence in my post. we should not eliminate all safety nets. i am only saying that conservatives, generally speaking (i.e. when sane) are not anti-social justice…we’re simply not always in accordance with the balance between private and public social assistance.

104 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:36:22am

re: #93 Aceofwhat?

As a conservative, i think that it is my responsibility to donate a significant portion of my income to charities and other organizations who provide social services. I believe that i and my fellow neighbors can provide a more effective and loving social safety net than the government (although I do not believe in a complete absence of a govt safety net), and at less cost.

It is beneath human dignity for the sick and disabled to be made to feel like beggars. Also, private charitable fundraising is open to abuse, and administration costs are often outrageously high.

105 darthstar  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:36:50am

re: #102 avanti

More on the banner.

I can think of better things to do with my money than this.

106 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:37:17am

re: #99 Aceofwhat?

Well, when they come up with a law that is radically different than what the representatives would have produced, one could argue that the democracy isn’t very representative.

And they don’t have any more right to be unconstitutional than any other law, right?

I do get the part about the poor wording, though. Passing a law via confusion is just all kinds of wrong.

We already have a system by which we pass laws. Ballot initiatives are a populist sham. In Oregon and Washington, many of these lunatic laws passed by ballot initiative are declared unconstitutional.

Here is how the system works: if your rep makes laws you don’t like? You vote them out, and vote in a different rep. That is how the real system works. That’s how adults do it.

107 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:37:19am

re: #101 Dreggas

That relies on your neighbors and their generosity. You may be generous but the mizer down the road might not, thus the safety net would have holes.

To my mind if you want good schools, good roads and freeways, clean water, safety (see police and fire) and other modern comforts/necessities those are best provided for by government.

Growing up in NY I remember property taxes went towards the schools and property taxes could go up or down. Here in California they can’t go up, despite the number and sizes of homes here and thus funding for schools is lacking.

again, note that i specifically said that there should be a social safety net, and of course the government plays a big role in keeping our society stable. i’m no anarchic libertarian…

108 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:38:16am

re: #104 Spare O’Lake

It is beneath human dignity for the sick and disabled to be made to feel like beggars. Also, private charitable fundraising is open to abuse, and administration costs are often outrageously high.

you appear to have also not read the post completely.

and are we really going to compare public and private administration costs? come on.

109 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:38:49am

re: #103 Aceofwhat?

looks like you missed a sentence in my post. we should not eliminate all safety nets. i am only saying that conservatives, generally speaking (i.e. when sane) are not anti-social justice…we’re simply not always in accordance with the balance between private and public social assistance.

You’;re not anti-social justice, you just want it to teeter and scrape to remain in the good graces of people with money writing the checks. :)

Sorry, I don’t agree, at all, in any way. A social net should be pervasive and constant. Charities are not pervasive and constant.

110 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:39:18am

re: #99 Aceofwhat?

In many cases the props are put up and worded to make people feel good about voting for them without listeng the consequences of what voting for them might mean. For example I see ones out here all the time to stop raising any taxes etc. What they don’t say is without that revenue other programs suffer and people go nuts.

I remember they had one ballot initiative out here not long ago that would have raised taxes on cigarettes (again) to raise money for kids health insurance. If you read the measure most of the money would go to back-fill the money lost the last time they raised taxes on cigarettes to pay for…kids health care. Mainly because a lot of people quit smoking and thus the funding was drying up and had to come from elsewhere. Fortunately (or unfortunately) the measure failed. But it had a feel good tone to it, tax the damn dirty smokers to help sick kids.

111 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:39:46am

re: #106 WindUpBird

We already have a system by which we pass laws. Ballot initiatives are a populist sham. In Oregon and Washington, many of these lunatic laws passed by ballot initiative are declared unconstitutional.

Here is how the system works: if your rep makes laws you don’t like? You vote them out, and vote in a different rep. That is how the real system works. That’s how adults do it.

Was it fun kicking “populism”, as one who tends to lean left?;) I knew you had a little repub in ya!

112 avanti  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:39:49am

re: #105 darthstar

I can think of better things to do with my money than this.

I’d bet a beer a “Christian” paid for the banner.

113 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:40:04am

re: #93 Aceofwhat?

As a liberal, I think I am the Government. That’s also how many of the real democratic federal workers feel. We have a hive mentality./

114 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:40:35am

re: #113 prairiefire

As a liberal, I think I am the Government. That’s also how many of the real democratic federal workers feel. We have a hive mentality./

Buzz, buzz, buzz.

115 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:40:41am

re: #104 Spare O’Lake

It is beneath human dignity for the sick and disabled to be made to feel like beggars. Also, private charitable fundraising is open to abuse, and administration costs are often outrageously high.

UP

DING


The administration costs are a brutal one. There’s ratings for how much overhead charities have, and some of them are basically an excuse for the administrators to get fat off of donations. And it’s sad, because we have to have those ratings, else charities can get away with murder.

116 b_sharp  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:41:40am

re: #20 Aceofwhat?

eh, they’re both married…i don’t like going there. i’m not gonna play comment po-po, but i generally try to resist making sexual comments about married folks.

Why?

117 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:42:56am

re: #111 Aceofwhat?

Was it fun kicking “populism”, as one who tends to lean left?;) I knew you had a little repub in ya!

I don’t like populism when it appeals to base nature. Like ballot initiatives doing an end run around representative democracy. Or the rabble from megachurches screaming moral panic and wanting to outlaw gay schoolteachers. Or defunding colleges and attacking people (cough*Obama) who have achieved academically BECAUSE they have achieved academically.

118 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:43:00am

re: #109 WindUpBird

You’;re not anti-social justice, you just want it to teeter and scrape to remain in the good graces of people with money writing the checks. :)

Sorry, I don’t agree, at all, in any way. A social net should be pervasive and constant. Charities are not pervasive and constant.

Ok. I’m amenable to disagreeing with you here. I think that there are plenty of examples of economies with much more pervasive and constant social nets than ours, and on the whole, I’m not in a hurry to ape them.

119 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:43:17am

More heads exploding:

Top Reaganite Backs Obama Nuke Plan

While Reagan’s self-appointed defenders on the right are decrying Obama’s new nuclear plan, his former secretary of State, George Shultz, tells John Avlon he sees a continuity of vision between the two presidents.
120 reine.de.tout  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:43:20am

re: #116 b_sharp

Why?

My question is why anyone would want to make sexual comments about anybody.

121 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:43:49am

re: #118 Aceofwhat?

Ok. I’m amenable to disagreeing with you here. I think that there are plenty of examples of economies with much more pervasive and constant social nets than ours, and on the whole, I’m not in a hurry to ape them.

I’m thinking of northern europe, where they have a consistently higher quality of life than we do, more education than we do, and a more pervasive social net than we do.

122 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:44:13am

re: #116 b_sharp

Why?

seems meaner than i aspire to be. it’s just me.

123 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:44:29am

re: #119 negativ

More heads exploding:

Top Reaganite Backs Obama Nuke Plan

Because Obama is following in the footsteps of Reagan!

And people jumped down my throat here when I said it, but it’s coming more true every day.

124 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:45:46am

re: #120 reine.de.tout

My question is why anyone would want to make sexual comments about anybody.

Eh, to me, very little is off limits to a joke.
:shrugs:

125 avanti  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:46:34am

re: #119 negativ

More heads exploding:

Top Reaganite Backs Obama Nuke Plan

Yep, a poster on Hot Air said that Reagan would be rolling in his grave over the treaty. When AP pointed out it was Reagan’s dream to reduce nukes to zero, the posters essentially came back with “But that was Reagan, this is Obama.”

126 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:47:31am

re: #119 negativ

More heads exploding:

Top Reaganite Backs Obama Nuke Plan

Image: your-head-asplode.jpg

127 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:47:58am

re: #121 WindUpBird

I’m thinking of northern europe, where they have a consistently higher quality of life than we do, more education than we do, and a more pervasive social net than we do.

Heh. Lived there. Their quality of life is only better depending on one’s priorities. It’s not demonstrably better. It is much more comfortable to lose your job in northern europe. It is much, much, much harder to find a new job in northern europe.

Their secondary education is far better than ours. Their universities are definitely substandard compared to ours.

So it depends on your priorities. I love this country, and there is plenty to love about Europe too. Both bring a mixed bag to the table.

128 reine.de.tout  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:48:45am

re: #124 Varek Raith

Eh, to me, very little is off limits to a joke.
:shrugs:

Actual humorous jokes are one thing.
Speculative comments are another thing entirely…

129 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:48:53am

re: #117 WindUpBird

I don’t like populism when it appeals to base nature. Like ballot initiatives doing an end run around representative democracy. Or the rabble from megachurches screaming moral panic and wanting to outlaw gay schoolteachers. Or defunding colleges and attacking people (cough*Obama) who have achieved academically BECAUSE they have achieved academically.

or attacking people who have achieved prosperity BECAUSE they have achieved prosperity?

;)

130 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:49:12am

re: #128 reine.de.tout

Actual humorous jokes are one thing.
Speculative comments are another thing entirely…

Oh, okay. I get where you’re coming from.

131 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:49:44am

re: #128 reine.de.tout

Actual humorous jokes are one thing.
Speculative comments are another thing entirely…

My sentiments exactly. Well-said.

Note that the person who i aspire to be and the person who i am are, to my dismay, often two different people.

But each day is a chance to do better…

132 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:51:23am

re: #127 Aceofwhat?

From what I saw, there was still more male chauvinism and condoning of married men having mistresses. Yechhh. The US is best.

133 Claire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:54:47am

re: #121 WindUpBird

I’m thinking of northern europe, where they have a consistently higher quality of life than we do, more education than we do, and a more pervasive social net than we do.

Define higher quality of life. They have what you listed, then go back to their tiny little over-priced apartments in the 200 year old building with a kitchen the size of a postage stamp with a miniature refrigerator and no closets and one bath for 4 people and, and, and…….rainy, dark, chilly. Feh.

134 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:55:00am

re: #108 Aceofwhat?

you appear to have also not read the post completely.

and are we really going to compare public and private administration costs? come on.

I am all in favour of charity, but let’s not kid ourselves - there are plenty of abuse and scams out there. Also, private charity is voluntary and therefore can never be entirely relied upon to provide all that is required. A just society is obliged to secure the necessary resources in order to make sure that its sick and disabled members can be cared for and live with a modicum of dignity, and that is the price that society’s wealthier and more fortunate members must pay for the privilege of enjoying their individual liberties within a peaceful functioning society.

135 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:55:18am

OT—I love the wonders of the internet.

The Princess is in Ohio with Winterguard. I will watch her team’s performance live on the web (with my guts tied in knots).

3 time zones, over 100 miles, instantaneous.

136 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:56:46am

re: #132 prairiefire

From what I saw, there was still more male chauvinism and condoning of married men having mistresses. Yechhh. The US is best.

More overt racism, for sure. Ask a Belgian what they think of Moroccans when only other ethnic Belgians are in the room…they can make a Florida redneck blush…

137 iceweasel  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:57:18am

re: #133 Claire

Define higher quality of life. They have what you listed, then go back to their tiny little over-priced apartments in the 200 year old building with a kitchen the size of a postage stamp with a miniature refrigerator and no closets and one bath for 4 people and, and, and…rainy, dark, chilly. Feh.

hahahahaha— What?

Sorry, usually I’m more articulate, but I really have to respond to this with laughter.

138 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:59:15am

re: #136 Aceofwhat?

A good friend has the same story from Austria. “Look around you” proud sweep of the hand “All you see is white!”

139 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 11:59:37am

re: #134 Spare O’Lake

I am all in favour of charity, but let’s not kid ourselves - there are plenty of abuse and scams out there. Also, private charity is voluntary and therefore can never be entirely relied upon to provide all that is required. A just society is obliged to secure the necessary resources in order to make sure that its sick and disabled members can be cared for and live with a modicum of dignity, and that is the price that society’s wealthier and more fortunate members must pay for the privilege of enjoying their individual liberties within a peaceful functioning society.

There is a balance, to be sure. What you are saying is that you wish to remove the option of demonstrable, provable charity. I disagree. Habitat for Humanity does what it does with far less resources than what the government would require to provide the same services.

Tsk, tsk. Such a poor view of the charitable impulses of your neighbors…

140 b_sharp  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:01:34pm

re: #122 Aceofwhat?

seems meaner than i aspire to be. it’s just me.

Just curious as to why married couples should be treated differently. Personally, I see married couples the same as I see unmarried couples and singles and don’t tend to treat them differently.

That may just be a consequence of my atheism.

141 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:01:43pm

Looking forward to the “Ditz and Ditzier” ticket. This could change American politics for decades, when they only get about 10% of the national vote that is…

/go ahead run them, at this point I want you to, maybe it will bring my party back from the brink after they get completely trounced.

142 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:02:40pm

re: #139 Aceofwhat?

Habitat for humanity also receives government funding. It is not totally private.

143 b_sharp  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:02:57pm

re: #124 Varek Raith

Eh, to me, very little is off limits to a joke.
:shrugs:

To me, the situation is more important than the target.

144 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:03:00pm

re: #136 Aceofwhat?

Well, I know that the non-neo-Nazi Danes tend to be very, very non-racist, and there is certainly a large humanist streak in Europe that’s non-racist. I don’t know the Belgians nearly as well.

But the Danes have a proud history of rejecting racism:

auschwitz.dk

From all strata of Danish society and in all parts of the country, clergymen, civil servants, doctors, store owners, farmers, fishermen and teachers protected the Jews. A united Lutheran Church openly and persistently challenged the German offensive. Many Torahs from Rabbi Melchior’s synagogue were hidden a few blocks away in the crypt of Trinity Church. Dr. Koster, who was in charge of Bispebjerg Hospital, was instrumental in arranging for hundreds of Jews to be hidden at the hospital before they made their escape to Sweden. The psychiatric building and the nurses’ quarters were filled with refugees, who were all fed from the hospital kitchen. Virtually the entire medical staff at the hospital cooperated to save Jewish lives. Once it became known among Danes what the hospital was doing, money was donated from all over the country.

The Danish police and coast guard also took sides with the oppressed by refusing to assist in the manhunt.

…

Denmark was also different and special in another way. Almost everywhere else in Europe, returning Jews found their homes had been broken into, and everything of value stolen. When the Danish Jews returned , they discovered that their homes, pets, gardens and personal belongings were cared for by their neighbors.

…

In Jerusalem, a boat-like monument was erected on the 25th anniversary of the rescue of Danish Jewry, and a school was named in Denmark’s honor. Many cities and towns in Israel have a street or square commemorating the heroism of the Danes. Moreover, one of the prominent items on display in Yad Vashem, the Holocaust Memorial in Jerusalem, is a small boat that was used to ferry Jews to safety in Sweden. The boat is situated near the Righteous Alley, signifying rescue, hope, life - and trust in the human spirit. Its display is a tribute to the Danes who made the difference during the most tragic period in the last century.


Denmark behaved better than any other country to Jews during WWII, including the US.

145 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:04:29pm

Has it ever occurred to the Tea Partiers that the original founders had geniuses on their side? Serious mental horsepower.

146 b_sharp  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:05:06pm

re: #131 Aceofwhat?

My sentiments exactly. Well-said.

Note that the person who i aspire to be and the person who i am are, to my dismay, often two different people.

But each day is a chance to do better…

Holy crap man, that just has to be updinged.

You just nailed the essence of being human.

147 Lidane  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:05:49pm

Oh lawd…someone please spare me from this level of stupid:

Two Republican stars — Palin and Bachmann — align for first time

Betty Soban, an admiring constituent of Bachmann’s, said: “My family left Germany because of Hitler and socialized medicine. I see it happening here.” Important to her, she said, are “freedom of ownership. Freedom of our guns. Freedom of having babies.”

Soban’s sweatshirt read “Liberty and Freedom,” and she sported a button that said: “Change? I’d like mine back.”

Never mind the rest of the Tea Party talking points. The part about leaving Germany because of Hitler and socialized medicine is painfully dumb. I can feel the migraine starting already. =P

148 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:06:45pm

re: #145 EmmmieG

Shhhhh. They weren’t geniuses, they were common folk who didn’t believe in science or enlightenment and were really just farmers, common men.

149 iceweasel  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:08:23pm

re: #143 b_sharp

To me, the situation is more important than the target.

I don’t think being married has anything to do with certain jokes being off limits; in general though I prefer it if we don’t make sexual jokes about female politicians (unless one of them is actually involved in a sex scandal), purely because such comments have always been a way to denigrate women in positions of power. And even now, they appear regularly on any site, right or left, whenever a female pundit or politician is mentioned.

That being said, it is difficult to resist making some jokes what with the Lesbian Bondage Fiasco and all…

150 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:08:29pm

re: #137 iceweasel

hahahahaha— What?

Sorry, usually I’m more articulate, but I really have to respond to this with laughter.

What? The cost of an average house in Belgium is about the cost of an average house in the US, not adjusting for conversion. And the average square footage is MUCH smaller.

151 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:08:53pm

re: #140 b_sharp

Just curious as to why married couples should be treated differently. Personally, I see married couples the same as I see unmarried couples and singles and don’t tend to treat them differently.

That may just be a consequence of my atheism.

would you hit on a married woman with the same impunity you’d hit on a single woman?

152 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:09:41pm

re: #133 Claire

Define higher quality of life. They have what you listed, then go back to their tiny little over-priced apartments in the 200 year old building with a kitchen the size of a postage stamp with a miniature refrigerator and no closets and one bath for 4 people and, and, and…rainy, dark, chilly. Feh.

hahaha lol wut

Are we talking about quality of life, or the price of real estate?

Why don’t we also indict the government of Iceland because it doesn’t have beaches like La Joya? You people are too much. :D

153 iceweasel  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:10:22pm

re: #148 Dreggas

Shhh. They weren’t geniuses, they were common folk who didn’t believe in science or enlightenment and were really just farmers, common men.

There is a great piece by Josh Marshall today on this:

The Right’s Phony Fetish

here’s nothing the right, particularly the sectarian right, loves more than the the federal constitution, which by their reckoning is an anti-federal power, libertarian document that hearkens back to the days when the Founding Fathers founded the Tea Party movement. But I’m not sure there’s any better example of what nonsense this is, or the way that the ‘constitution’ has just become a fetish which automatically represents the rightwing wish-list du jour, than the paranoia and rage against the Census. If you’re really devoted to the constitution, by all rights responding to Census should make you something close to giddy since participating in the Census is about as close as you can get to fulfilling an unambiguous and explicit constitutional duty. For a real constitutionalist, it should be like touching the Pope’e garment.

But the disconnect between the wingnut fantasy constitution and the actual document actually goes well beyond that. Certainly liberals and conservatives have their own takes on the constitution. And outside the extreme margins each take is rooted in some real history. But what I’m talking about is the Ron Paul, Tea Party, right-wing sectarian take — the ‘constitution’ of Sen. DeMint’s imagination — that really does believe that the constitution is a sort of far-right wishlist. But what’s even weirder and more problematic in terms of our public discourse is that a lot of journalists seem to buy into this fantasy — at least assume it as a given — even if they don’t accept the supposed implications. In other words, ‘Yes, sure the original constitution is a Paulite, radically small government document. But hey, we’re a big country now. Times change.’

But this is a complete crock. The federal constitution doesn’t just not perfectly line up with the anti-federal, small government right. It was actually put into effect precisely to combat the kind of politically philosophy these folks espouses. It’s a centralizing document. It was aimed at making federal power trump that of the states, indeed bringing the states to heel. The idea that of a genuine heir of the South Carolinian political tradition — which DeMint is — is someone whose views are in tune with the constitution is silly if you spend a few moments cracking a history book. The big point of the constitution was to create a strong federal government, one with the power to do pretty much all the things the phony constitutionalists are the far-right want to prevent.

154 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:10:50pm

re: #87 WindUpBird

They’re an end run around representative democracy. See gay marriage bans in states.

BzzT…Wrong…some voter initiatives can be democracy at it’s finest.

Most states have protections written into their constitutions that prevent easy abuse and require large majorities to pass initiatives. You are thinking of California that slit their own throat by amending their state constitution to require only 50% plus one vote to pass any initiative. They did it to fight against “high” property taxes, even though many experts warned them of what would happen if they made it that easy to pass initiatives they ignored that advice and voted overwhelmingly to pass the proposition.

That is how Prop. 8 passed and again amended their state constitution with less than 52% of the vote. Just as dozens of propositions that sounded reasonable but have turned into disasters have passed since then.

155 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:11:13pm

re: #144 Obdicut

Well, I know that the non-neo-Nazi Danes tend to be very, very non-racist, and there is certainly a large humanist streak in Europe that’s non-racist. I don’t know the Belgians nearly as well.

But the Danes have a proud history of rejecting racism:

[Link: www.auschwitz.dk…]

Denmark behaved better than any other country to Jews during WWII, including the US.

quite true. each country really is different. The French can be quite racist…although Arabs burning cars don’t help alter the prejudice. On the other hand, I’ve found the Dutch to be as open and welcoming in private as they are in public.

The country-by-country “vibes” are really fascinating, as is much of European culture.

156 iceweasel  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:11:25pm

re: #150 Aceofwhat?

What? The cost of an average house in Belgium is about the cost of an average house in the US, not adjusting for conversion. And the average square footage is MUCH smaller.

Are we talking about only Belgium, or all of Europe here? My understanding was that it was all of Europe. And again, hahaha.

157 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:11:36pm

re: #150 Aceofwhat?

What? The cost of an average house in Belgium is about the cost of an average house in the US, not adjusting for conversion. And the average square footage is MUCH smaller.

FACE


PALM


This is retarded.

Belgium square miles; 11700

USA square miles: 3537441

GOSH I WONDER WHY LAND IS CHEAPER IN AMERICA DUHHH

158 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:12:23pm

re: #139 Aceofwhat?

There is a balance, to be sure. What you are saying is that you wish to remove the option of demonstrable, provable charity. I disagree. Habitat for Humanity does what it does with far less resources than what the government would require to provide the same services.

Tsk, tsk. Such a poor view of the charitable impulses of your neighbors…

I hate getting tsk’d. Instead of preaching to the converted about how wonderful charity can be, why don’t you explain how it is that our neighbours, despite all their charitable efforts, are somehow able to tolerate the existence of vast numbers of sick and disabled citizens living in hopeless poverty in our midst.

159 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:12:26pm

re: #137 iceweasel

hahahahaha— What?

Sorry, usually I’m more articulate, but I really have to respond to this with laughter.

I think partisanship cuts off the oxygen supply to peoples’ brains :D

160 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:13:18pm

re: #142 Dreggas

Habitat for humanity also receives government funding. It is not totally private.

Exactly. Being a good example of an effective charity, it qualified for government funding. It does not justify an absence of a social safety net, but is an example of a private institution playing a significant role in the social safety net.

I’m sure we all believe there’s a balance in there somewhere-

161 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:13:44pm

re: #155 Aceofwhat?

The French turned in a higher percentage of their Jewish population to the Nazis than the Italians did.

I have little forgiveness for that. France still has huge swathes of antisemitism.

I don’t judge every country on Europe solely on how they treat Jews, though— the Italians these days are fucking racist as shit towards the Roma, for example.

162 iceweasel  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:14:11pm

re: #157 WindUpBird


GOSH I WONDER WHY LAND IS CHEAPER IN AMERICA DUHHH

ITS THERE COMMIE SYSTEMZ N SOCIALMALISM IN YURP WHAT DRIVEZ TEH PRICEZ UP.

163 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:14:15pm

re: #157 WindUpBird

FACE

PALM

This is retarded.

Belgium square miles; 11700

USA square miles: 3537441

GOSH I WONDER WHY LAND IS CHEAPER IN AMERICA DUHHH

Good, so land (and square footage) are often cheaper in America. That was the original point, i believe. Thank you for agreeing with me. I’m surprised that it needed to be pointed out, too…

164 Lidane  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:14:18pm

re: #151 Aceofwhat?

would you hit on a married woman with the same impunity you’d hit on a single woman?

I can’t speak for b_sharp, but I know that I don’t hit on anyone in a relationship, married or not. I figure that’s a pretty standard rule to live by. :)

165 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:14:25pm

Also, Europe in general has over four times the population density as north America.

I WONDER WHY PEOPLE LIVE IN SMALLER DWELLINGS MUST BE THEIR LIBERALNESS HAY I NEED MY MCMANSION USA USA USA AMURIKA

166 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:15:17pm

re: #161 Obdicut

The French turned in a higher percentage of their Jewish population to the Nazis than the Italians did.

I have little forgiveness for that. France still has huge swathes of antisemitism.

I don’t judge every country on Europe solely on how they treat Jews, though— the Italians these days are fucking racist as shit towards the Roma, for example.

Again, quite true. Well said. Each country really does need to be sampled on its own. I have very little experience in Italy. My sister found them to be the most misogynistic by far, tho…

167 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:15:38pm

re: #162 iceweasel

ITS THERE COMMIE SYSTEMZ N SOCIALMALISM IN YURP WHAT DRIVEZ TEH PRICEZ UP.

SOCIALMALISM!!!

168 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:17:05pm

re: #164 Lidane

I can’t speak for b_sharp, but I know that I don’t hit on anyone in a relationship, married or not. I figure that’s a pretty standard rule to live by. :)

Me too! For some reason, i carry the same vibe over into sexual comments…but if i were to be completely honest, I’m not sure it’s philosophically or logically a sound extension of that principle. It’s just a personal pattern that i have. It’s probably more logical to say that crude sexual references are always as unwanted as crude sexual approaches, regardless of the relationship status.

169 iceweasel  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:17:18pm

re: #165 WindUpBird

Also, Europe in general has over four times the population density as north America.

I WONDER WHY PEOPLE LIVE IN SMALLER DWELLINGS MUST BE THEIR LIBERALNESS HAY I NEED MY MCMANSION USA USA USA AMURIKA

ITS THERE HIPPY COMMUNES. COLLECTIVMALISTS! FREE LOVE!

170 avanti  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:17:43pm

re: #147 Lidane

Oh lawd…someone please spare me from this level of stupid:

Two Republican stars — Palin and Bachmann — align for first time

Never mind the rest of the Tea Party talking points. The part about leaving Germany because of Hitler and socialized medicine is painfully dumb. I can feel the migraine starting already. =P

“One man’s a sweatshirt had an image of Mount Rushmore and the words “Right Wing Extremist: Guess I’m in Good Company.”

Does he know who’s on Mount Rushmore ? i.e. Thomas Jefferson could not survive a GOP primary if he was alive today and did not share the views of the Tea Party any stretch. As a matter of fact, they are trying to ignore him in Texas school books.

171 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:18:33pm

re: #163 Aceofwhat?

Good, so land (and square footage) are often cheaper in America. That was the original point, i believe. Thank you for agreeing with me. I’m surprised that it needed to be pointed out, too…

We were talking about charities and quality of life by way of government services, not about real estate.

I think the size of America is a massive downside on our quality of life. Too spread out, too many rural areas that doctors can’t serve, too little public transportation, hits on education resources.

But people want their stuff. Like that Claire person. Apparently a big house means everything to some people. The American dream! Have a bunch of stuff!

172 b_sharp  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:18:54pm

re: #151 Aceofwhat?

would you hit on a married woman with the same impunity you’d hit on a single woman?

No, but that is something out of my control. We were talking about how I treat others, not how they treat me. Would I joke around with a married person as I do with a single? I do.

I find the married women I deal with on a daily basis have terrific senses of humour and tend to give it back to me better than I serve.

However, before anything is said, there is an unspoken agreement that it is all in humour and not serious. Without the implicit consent, I would not say anything.

173 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:19:04pm

re: #169 iceweasel

ITS THERE HIPPY COMMUNES. COLLECTIVMALISTS! FREE LOVE!

I HAS A TINY APARRTMANT IT IS SHAPED LIKE A HAMMAR AND SIKKLE

174 iceweasel  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:20:29pm

re: #173 WindUpBird

I HAS A TINY APARRTMANT IT IS SHAPED LIKE A HAMMAR AND SIKKLE

THIS WHEEL OF BRIE IS NOW SHAPED LIKE A SIKKLE, COMRADE! OR IS IT A CRESCENT?

175 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:22:16pm

re: #171 WindUpBird

We were talking about charities and quality of life by way of government services, not about real estate.

I think the size of America is a massive downside on our quality of life. Too spread out, too many rural areas that doctors can’t serve, too little public transportation, hits on education resources.

But people want their stuff. Like that Claire person. Apparently a big house means everything to some people. The American dream! Have a bunch of stuff!

that’s quite the selective view of ‘quality of life’. then you leap straight to “big house”. how about “big enough”? as in, it’s easier to afford a house that is big enough for one’s family in the US?

cost per square footage tends to be much higher in Europe. it is what it is. don’t ignore the facts you find inconvenient.

176 b_sharp  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:23:38pm

re: #164 Lidane

I can’t speak for b_sharp, but I know that I don’t hit on anyone in a relationship, married or not. I figure that’s a pretty standard rule to live by. :)

I don’t hit on anyone, not because they are in a relationship, but because I am in a relationship I don’t want to lose.

177 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:23:42pm

re: #172 b_sharp

No, but that is something out of my control. We were talking about how I treat others, not how they treat me. Would I joke around with a married person as I do with a single? I do.

I find the married women I deal with on a daily basis have terrific senses of humour and tend to give it back to me better than I serve.

However, before anything is said, there is an unspoken agreement that it is all in humour and not serious. Without the implicit consent, I would not say anything.

I gotcha. When I was single, i didn’t joke around with women who i knew were in relationships in the same manner that i did with women who i knew were single. But that doesn’t mean i’m right - it’s just a habit.

178 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:24:44pm

I wonder if it blows the minds of conservatives here that I actively elect to live in a dense area in a much smaller apartment than what I can afford, even though I could right now, at this very moment, go out and buy a house in a suburb.

Density means services, it means access to light rail, it means being near all the awesome bars, it means being able to walk to a concert venue, it means being able to be downtown in a few minutes to hang out at the biggest used book store in the country, it means being able to put out a call for board gamers for a late-night Descent or Carcassone session and finding a dozen within a few minutes of my place.

All I need is enough space to set up a little art studio and a car that’s fun to corner in. I’ll take being within spitting distance of some of the greatest microbrew pubs in the country over an extra bathroom or vaulted ceilings any day of the week.

179 iceweasel  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:24:51pm

re: #171 WindUpBird

We were talking about charities and quality of life by way of government services, not about real estate.

I think the size of America is a massive downside on our quality of life. Too spread out, too many rural areas that doctors can’t serve, too little public transportation, hits on education resources.

But people want their stuff. Like that Claire person. Apparently a big house means everything to some people. The American dream! Have a bunch of stuff!

The size is a problem for the reasons you mention, but we’re not spread out solely because we ‘want our stuff’. People like being spread out. It’s been a part of the American story since the beginning— move out, spread out, etc.

180 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:25:14pm

re: #165 WindUpBird

Also, Europe in general has over four times the population density as north America.

I WONDER WHY PEOPLE LIVE IN SMALLER DWELLINGS MUST BE THEIR LIBERALNESS HAY I NEED MY MCMANSION USA USA USA AMURIKA

Next time use a more precise term for ‘quality of life’ if you can’t handle the direction of this conversation. Price per square footage is an absolutely normal and typical component of that term. I was just trying to have a grown-up discussion about it.

181 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:26:59pm

re: #166 Aceofwhat?

Well, I’d say some of the Balkan countries beat Italy in misogyny, but yeah, they’ve got the virgin/whore thing bad there.

I like Europe, I really do, but it’s not so different from the US: The cities tend to be cosmopolitan (literally) and more ‘liberal’, and there are large sections where people are more ‘conservative’. What that means depends on the individual country. A Danish ‘conservative’ may be against the immigration of highly religious Muslims to a degree that would seem like repression of religion in the US, but Denmark is far more secular and less respectful of religion than the US is.

Opposition to Muslims in Denmark has very little to do with race, but with the degree of religiosity— if you are overly religious, you’re really not very Danish.

182 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:29:31pm

re: #180 Aceofwhat?

It’s really not, though. I’m going to move to New York, have a smaller apartment, but I don’t expect my quality of life to really change.

it’s an arbitrary metric that leaves much out.

My favorite apartment was my tiniest, too. Damn, it was cozy. I loved that place.

And $700 a month. Not going to see those prices again anytime soon.

183 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:29:56pm

re: #178 WindUpBird

I wonder if it blows the minds of conservatives here that I actively elect to live in a dense area in a much smaller apartment than what I can afford, even though I could right now, at this very moment, go out and buy a house in a suburb.

Density means services, it means access to light rail, it means being near all the awesome bars, it means being able to walk to a concert venue, it means being able to be downtown in a few minutes to hang out at the biggest used book store in the country, it means being able to put out a call for board gamers for a late-night Descent or Carcassone session and finding a dozen within a few minutes of my place.

All I need is enough space to set up a little art studio and a car that’s fun to corner in. I’ll take being within spitting distance of some of the greatest microbrew pubs in the country over an extra bathroom or vaulted ceilings any day of the week.

I wonder if it blows the mind of liberals that i actively elected to live in a house big enough to have a bedroom for each of my kids.

I don’t know where you’re headed here. My house would be practically unaffordable in Europe. It is what it is. I still love it there. Each country presents advantages and disadvantages. Lower price per sqft is an advantage. It’s not nirvana…but it’s one of many variables in the ‘quality of life’ equation…like i said above…

184 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:30:49pm

re: #175 Aceofwhat?

that’s quite the selective view of ‘quality of life’. then you leap straight to “big house”. how about “big enough”? as in, it’s easier to afford a house that is big enough for one’s family in the US?

cost per square footage tends to be much higher in Europe. it is what it is. don’t ignore the facts you find inconvenient.

I leap to that because that Claire person leaped there first with this loony exaggeration that people in europe live stacked like cordwood.

And see above. “big enough” is a cultural thing. America’s “big enough” is enormous. My big enough is much smaller. I view being able to pay for college as being more important than square footage. I view a great public transportation system and population density and walkable retail as more important than square footage for my stuff. Do I need a bigger TV? A bigger couch> Valuted ceilings? More garages? No. These are luxuries. They’re baubles. They’re not necessary. I view having proper health care as being more important than how big my fridge is.

Eventually, those big single-family houses, they won’t matter because the energy costs to keep those exurbs going will increase to untenable levels. Energy is not getting any cheaper. Exurbs are already starting to become ghettos. Americans are starting to realize that walkable retail, dense neighborhoods are easier to sustain, foster community, cheaper to maintain, use less power, and they just plain kick more ass than having a big house in an exurb.

185 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:30:50pm

re: #181 Obdicut

Well, I’d say some of the Balkan countries beat Italy in misogyny, but yeah, they’ve got the virgin/whore thing bad there.

I like Europe, I really do, but it’s not so different from the US: The cities tend to be cosmopolitan (literally) and more ‘liberal’, and there are large sections where people are more ‘conservative’. What that means depends on the individual country. A Danish ‘conservative’ may be against the immigration of highly religious Muslims to a degree that would seem like repression of religion in the US, but Denmark is far more secular and less respectful of religion than the US is.

Opposition to Muslims in Denmark has very little to do with race, but with the degree of religiosity— if you are overly religious, you’re really not very Danish.

My dream job would be one year here, one year there, etc. My wife disagrees for the moment…i see her point…kids/school stability…but still - that’s a dream of mine.

186 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:34:23pm

re: #179 iceweasel

The size is a problem for the reasons you mention, but we’re not spread out solely because we ‘want our stuff’. People like being spread out. It’s been a part of the American story since the beginning— move out, spread out, etc.

Oh, it’s true, it’s a cultural thing, and a land thing. We got the space, we’re America, we’ve got a quadzillion square miles, let’s spread out! But much of the financial crisis was the perpetuation of this idea that you’re only really “real” once you have a single-family dwelling, everything orbited around that, the drive to own a home at all costs. And these increasingly elastic rules for loans, increasingly bizarre loan packages that all feed into the need for people to have a single family home. And then brokers are selling NINJA loans and boom crisis.

The way I look at it is, being spread out moves me further away from all the stuff that’s important.

187 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:35:32pm

re: #184 WindUpBird

I leap to that because that Claire person leaped there first with this loony exaggeration that people in europe live stacked like cordwood.

And see above. “big enough” is a cultural thing. America’s “big enough” is enormous. My big enough is much smaller. I view being able to pay for college as being more important than square footage. I view a great public transportation system and population density and walkable retail as more important than square footage for my stuff. Do I need a bigger TV? A bigger couch> Valuted ceilings? More garages? No. These are luxuries. They’re baubles. They’re not necessary. I view having proper health care as being more important than how big my fridge is.

Eventually, those big single-family houses, they won’t matter because the energy costs to keep those exurbs going will increase to untenable levels. Energy is not getting any cheaper. Exurbs are already starting to become ghettos. Americans are starting to realize that walkable retail, dense neighborhoods are easier to sustain, foster community, cheaper to maintain, use less power, and they just plain kick more ass than having a big house in an exurb.

In many places (i’m trying not to overgeneralize), most of us would pay more for our domiciles. I prefer a greater range of choices in both my housing and healthcare situations. In Europe, you have less choice. Price funnels you to a smaller domicile (in general) and taxes funnel you to a onesizefitsall healthcare situation.

I don’t want to spend as much on my healthcare. I work my ass off to stay in shape so that i don’t have chronic expenses, although some of that is certainly good luck. I respect that your bundle of choices are different. It’s just harder for me to make my choices in some areas of Europe. That’s all.

188 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:37:19pm

re: #182 Obdicut

It’s really not, though. I’m going to move to New York, have a smaller apartment, but I don’t expect my quality of life to really change.

it’s an arbitrary metric that leaves much out.

My favorite apartment was my tiniest, too. Damn, it was cozy. I loved that place.

And $700 a month. Not going to see those prices again anytime soon.

Ha! No, you’re not. But it really only starts being a factor when you breed. For now, you’ll be fine.

My tiniest apartment was not my favorite, but it only cost me $350 a month. Living in the wrong parts of Cleveland don’t bring a lot of advantages…but they bring a few!

189 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:39:27pm

re: #183 Aceofwhat?

I wonder if it blows the mind of liberals that i actively elected to live in a house big enough to have a bedroom for each of my kids.

I don’t know where you’re headed here. My house would be practically unaffordable in Europe. It is what it is. I still love it there. Each country presents advantages and disadvantages. Lower price per sqft is an advantage. It’s not nirvana…but it’s one of many variables in the ‘quality of life’ equation…like i said above…

I grew up in a giant house in the suburbs of Seattle. Surrounded by farmland that eventually became more neighborhoods. I was bored to tears. Thank god I had access to BBSes so I could meet other people like me! I took the bus downtown every chance I got, once I was old enough for my parents to let me. There was nothing within walking distance of my house except a 7-11. I go back and visit my parents in their giant house all the time. Their neighborhood is the most dull, soulless concrete wasteland I could concieve of. Chain restaurants everywhere, massive traffic. We have both kinds of food! Applebees and Red Robin! Busy yet lifeless.

What I’m saying is that being so spread out and having land so cheap, it is a double edged sword. It’s not a pure advantage. it’s a cost advantage, and a human resource disadvantage.

190 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:40:15pm

re: #179 iceweasel

The size is a problem for the reasons you mention, but we’re not spread out solely because we ‘want our stuff’. People like being spread out. It’s been a part of the American story since the beginning— move out, spread out, etc.

I would prefer that we live the way we want and focus on the technology required to do so responsibly, rather than (a) be forced to live otherwise or (b) allow the way that we want to live to negatively impact the environment.

I know…i’m lonely in that stance…but ‘wanting stuff’ has brought good as well as evil. Lots of scientific advances have been made in the pursuit of more stuff. We just need to be more responsible about it.

191 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:42:06pm

re: #189 WindUpBird

What I’m saying is that being so spread out and having land so cheap, it is a double edged sword. It’s not a pure advantage. it’s a cost advantage, and a human resource disadvantage.

I agree completely. One benefit of this country is that we have the choice, if we want it, to live in either a dense or sparse area. One drawback of Europe is that you tend not to have that choice. That’s all.

192 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:43:42pm

re: #182 Obdicut

It’s really not, though. I’m going to move to New York, have a smaller apartment, but I don’t expect my quality of life to really change.

Wait…then aren’t you being ‘wasteful’, using WUB’s criteria, in your current place if a smaller one will have no impact on your quality of life??

Waster! Waster!

//

193 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:44:00pm

whoops, i’m posting to myself again.

194 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:45:29pm

re: #121 WindUpBird

I’m thinking of northern europe, where they have a consistently higher quality of life than we do, more education than we do, and a more pervasive social net than we do.

Destitute and desperate, Icelanders are leaving the country in droves.

195 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:46:13pm

re: #187 Aceofwhat?

In many places (i’m trying not to overgeneralize), most of us would pay more for our domiciles. I prefer a greater range of choices in both my housing and healthcare situations. In Europe, you have less choice. Price funnels you to a smaller domicile (in general) and taxes funnel you to a onesizefitsall healthcare situation.

I don’t want to spend as much on my healthcare. I work my ass off to stay in shape so that i don’t have chronic expenses, although some of that is certainly good luck. I respect that your bundle of choices are different. It’s just harder for me to make my choices in some areas of Europe. That’s all.

That one-size-fits-all situation is superior to anything we currently have here. :) I’m not out of shape, but what health problems I do have are not things I can exercise away.

“Choice” in health care is a talking point. It’s sort of like choosing between a kick in the ass and a kick in the junk. What job do you have that you can choose between providers? Every job I have had, there is one provider, or no provider at all! I’m currently a freelancer. My choice is “you’re fucked” or “you’re totally fucked”. I have a day job that pays me crap, but I stay with it because I need the health care. I’d like that to no longer be the case, it’s why I’m an Obama supporter. because he was serious about reforming health care, making it accessible to the self-employed like me, making it less predatory, making it more difficult for an insurer to bankrupt working familes. and that’s my number one issue.

All these northern european countries have higher life expectancy than we do. Why is that?

196 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:52:26pm

re: #192 Aceofwhat?

Nah. Having a smaller place will be slightly more awkward, but with New York’s vertical density it means there will be more things near us. Like bookstores. That’ll raise my quality of life.

It’s a tradeoff— the places with the most cramped conditions have the most going on, too.

197 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:52:38pm

re: #190 Aceofwhat?

I would prefer that we live the way we want and focus on the technology required to do so responsibly, rather than (a) be forced to live otherwise or (b) allow the way that we want to live to negatively impact the environment.

I know…i’m lonely in that stance…but ‘wanting stuff’ has brought good as well as evil. Lots of scientific advances have been made in the pursuit of more stuff. We just need to be more responsible about it.

Wealth is different than “stuff”. The pursuit of wealth and money is fine. Resources! Power! Independence! It’s the “stuff” that gets wasteful. When I’m flush with cash, I tend not to buy stuff, unless it’s directly germane to my business, like a better computer, art supplies. I tend to go out to eat more, I visit out-of-town friends more. I’ve never bought a new car in my life, and I never will, even though I’m a car guy. I don’t like wasting things. I don’t like wasting space.

The “stuff” I want, truly want, could fit on an index card. Currently it’s a Cintiq 21ux to replace my aging 15x, and a fuel efficient British hyper-roadster. Oh yeah, and a couple zany new outfits for cons. That’s about it! My furniture? hand-me downs from the parents. Total cost? 0$. Office furniture Same thing. Oh, I bought some ikea lamps. To the tune of about fourty bucks. most money I’ve spent on furniture in 4 years.

198 Absalom, Absalom, Obdicut  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:53:05pm

re: #194 Alouette

Iceland fucked itself especially hard recently, in the financial scandals.

Iceland has always been dirt poor, as well. It’s a bunch of volcanoes in a really cold place.

199 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:53:11pm

re: #196 Obdicut

Nah. Having a smaller place will be slightly more awkward, but with New York’s vertical density it means there will be more things near us. Like bookstores. That’ll raise my quality of life.

It’s a tradeoff— the places with the most cramped conditions have the most going on, too.

That’s why I’m in SE portland. It’s where everything is awesome.

200 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 12:54:58pm

re: #191 Aceofwhat?

I agree completely. One benefit of this country is that we have the choice, if we want it, to live in either a dense or sparse area. One drawback of Europe is that you tend not to have that choice. That’s all.

And I think that is eclipsed by America’s lack of choice in public transportation. I’d LOVE it if we had the speedy train network europe does. We don’t. We’re stuck in airport hell, or we’re driving cross country. Or we’re on slow-as-molasses amtrak.

201 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 1:04:40pm

re: #191 Aceofwhat?

Obviously I get cranked up about this topic, but this is a good discussion.

202 Lidane  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 1:06:01pm

re: #176 b_sharp

I don’t hit on anyone, not because they are in a relationship, but because I am in a relationship I don’t want to lose.

Heh. Same here. I was speaking more in general terms anyway. :)

203 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 1:55:00pm

re: #93 Aceofwhat?

As a conservative, i think that it is my responsibility to donate a significant portion of my income to charities and other organizations who provide social services. I believe that i and my fellow neighbors can provide a more effective and loving social safety net than the government (although I do not believe in a complete absence of a govt safety net), and at less cost.

What happens if your neighbors don’t feel the same way, and opt out from the scheme?

If bad shit happens to me, I might come talk to you, but I wouldn’t want to take my chances with the “loving” help of some random neighbors of yours.

204 claire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 2:19:13pm

WIndupbird:

I just saw this- Sorry, I’m dealing with plumbers today- it’s like the Dance of the Buttcracker Suite around here today…..

It’d make me happy if you didn’t call me “that Claire person”, or “you people”, ya know?

I have family in Kent and friends in other countries and friends from Europe that live here now…. I can only go by experience, but I do know how they live in general. We have a higher standard of living as far as housing here for the same income level, in my opinion. The bigger the family, the more obvious it is. This isn’t important to kids who’s life revolves around cool bars, but it might surprise you how fast that can change. There’s a reason living like a college student tends to lose its appeal. Yes, it might actually happen to you some day. Quelle horreur!!!

205 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:44:46pm

re: #95 Aceofwhat?

Hard to say. It is stark contrast to the Tea Party crowd. But Mid-Westerners are very practical people. I read the KC Star editorial page. Lately it’s mainly anti-Obama folks who are being repped.


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