The Methane Apocalypse

Environment • Views: 5,066

Some very frightening news from the world of climate science, as an international scientific team discovers that the Arctic permafrost in Siberia may be starting to leak huge amounts of methane into the atmosphere.

And if this proves to be true, my friends, it will put every other concern of human beings on the back burner.

One of the greatest concerns and large unknowns in climate science has been the potential impact of methane trapped and frozen in the polar regions of the planet, particularly in the Arctic permafrost. If climate change causes the methane to be released, the gas could start a positive feedback reaction that could trigger abrupt climate warming.

Until now no evidence of such a mechanism has been seen, but an international research team led by University of Alaska Fairbanks scientists Natalia Shakhova and Igor Semiletov say this change is under way—in a little-studied area under the sea, the East Siberian Arctic Shelf, west of the Bering Strait.

The East Siberian Arctic Shelf, a methane-rich area that encompasses more than 2 million square kilometers of seafloor, was long thought to be an impermeable barrier sealing in the methane, but Shakhova and Semiletov team states that it is in fact perforated and starting to leak large amounts of methane into the atmosphere.

“The amount of methane currently coming out of the East Siberian Arctic Shelf is comparable to the amount coming out of the entire world’s oceans,” said Shakhova, a researcher at UAF’s International Arctic Research Center. “Subsea permafrost is losing its ability to be an impermeable cap.”

Methane is more than 30 times more potent than carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas. It is released from previously frozen soils in two ways. When the organic material (which contains carbon) stored in permafrost thaws, it begins to decompose and, under anaerobic conditions, gradually releases methane. Methane can also be stored in the seabed as methane gas or methane hydrates and then released as subsea permafrost thaws. These releases can be larger and more abrupt than those that result from decomposition.

The East Siberian Arctic Shelf is more than three times as large as the nearby Siberian wetlands, which have been considered the primary Northern Hemisphere source of atmospheric methane. Shakhova’s research results show that the East Siberian Arctic Shelf is already a significant methane source, releasing 7 teragrams of methane yearly, which is as much as is emitted from the rest of the ocean. A teragram is equal to about 1.1 million tons.

“Our concern is that the subsea permafrost has been showing signs of destabilization already,” she said. “If it further destabilizes, the methane emissions may not be teragrams, it would be significantly larger.”

UPDATE at 4/8/10 6:54:12 pm:

RealClimate says it’s not time to get frightened. Yet. RealClimate: Arctic Methane on the Move?

Jump to bottom

404 comments
1 jamesfirecat  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:21:41pm

FURTHER STUDY NEEDED! FURTHER STUDY NEEDED! FURTHER STUDY NEEDED!


And so on and so forth until the day you can't strike a match without exploding.

2 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:21:45pm
And if this proves to be true, my friends, it will put every other concern of human beings on the back burner.

Do not confuse "will put" with "should put".

3 Joo-LiZ  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:23:57pm

The question is -- what can we do about it?

Sounds like this will need a direct fix rather than a long-term reduction of our output.

4 political lunatic  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:24:16pm

*robot voice* global warming is a myth global warming is a myth global warming is a myth global warming is a myth global warming is a myth...(and so on until the end of time)

5 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:24:33pm

Tell me grandpa, about the times before the sky caught on fire...

6 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:25:18pm

And methane breaks down into CO2, so it double-fucks us.

Yay.

Good thing we've spent all this time figuring out whether or not someone at the CRU said a nasty thing about a creationist at some point, eh?

Here's why methane is ultrabad:

Methane in the Earth's atmosphere is an important greenhouse gas with a global warming potential of 25 compared to CO2 over a 100-year period. This means that a methane emission will have 25 times the impact on temperature of a carbon dioxide emission of the same mass over the following 100 years. Methane has a large effect for a brief period (a net lifetime of 8.4 years in the atmosphere), whereas carbon dioxide has a small effect for a long period (over 100 years). Because of this difference in effect and time period, the global warming potential of methane over a 20 year time period is 72. The Earth's methane concentration has increased by about 150% since 1750, and it accounts for 20% of the total radiative forcing from all of the long-lived and globally mixed greenhouse gases.[17]

7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:26:01pm

So, the Ruskies finally won.

8 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:27:57pm

re: #3 Joo-LiZ

The question is -- what can we do about it?

Sounds like this will need a direct fix rather than a long-term reduction of our output.

Reducing emissions drastically could still stave off the feedback loop. It's really the only thing we can do.

9 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:28:27pm

re: #3 Joo-LiZ

We can't really direct fix this. It's gas bubbling up over a huge area.

We need to hyperinvest in green technology. We need to do it right away. Nuclear, tidal generators, hydro, solar, everygoddamnthing, right away. We need to stop throwing away crap when it gets a little break and fix it instead. We need to look back at some of the values of our ancestors-- the smart ones, anyway.

We need to culturally admit that this is fucking happening, which, thanks to nihilists and greedheads, is now an uphill battle.

We need to develop carbon capture technology, so that we can start sucking CO2 out of the air. Methane, too-- but that's still not a 'direct' fix because there's no way we can do it at the rate it's being emitted.

And we have to hope we have enough time, and that the weird, nihilistic forces fighting against letting people understand the situation don't triumph.

I have become very pessimistic about that.

10 freetoken  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:28:29pm

The challenge we face, those of us who accept the discoveries of science wrt climate, is convincing our civilization to act on the knowledge.

A few weeks ago I was posting several news items from the CITES conference. That too is a UN convention, to which nearly all nations belong, set up to protect endangered species.

As the news stories recount, the CITES meeting proved a disaster for those nations who wanted to protect any marine species. There were just too many other nations who want to exclude all and many marine species from being included in CITES. The leaders of this group were the East Asian nations who, frankly, can buy all the third world votes they need to see that their agenda holds.

So, if we as a set of world governments can't act on something so tangible as food supply reduction from over-fishing, what can give us hope that we can act on something as big scale, and long term, as global warming?

Should I just turn into a doomer and be done with it?

11 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:29:05pm

re: #1 jamesfirecat

FURTHER STUDY NEEDED! FURTHER STUDY NEEDED! FURTHER STUDY NEEDED!

And so on and so forth until the day you can't strike a match without exploding.

It doesn't matter whether further studies are done or not, or whether those calling for them are denialists or real scientists.

If these new findings are true, and it starts a positive feedback loop as stated, humanity will have no more to say or do about it than we currently do about the periodicity of comets.

I for one am not going to let it spoil my reading, eating, drinking, sleeping or farting for whatever time I have left in this world.

Which has pretty much been my attitude to things I can't change all along.

12 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:29:23pm

re: #7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

So, the Ruskies finally won.

No, but there's something in their country that could leave us all fucked. What to do about it is the question. I hope Ludwig gets here. this really is his specialty.

13 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:30:41pm

Look I can't take any action on methane release seriously unless it includes a immediate & total ban on White Castle burgers.

14 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:30:51pm

re: #10 freetoken

No. At the very least, developing the green technologies is going to be the next step America needs to take, even if things get really terrible and hellish. We need to develop technology that's actually sustainable, no matter what.

Humanity may have to learn a very, very, very terrible object lesson. I really hope not. But we need to develop technology. We need scientists. Which is why those who have spent decades upon decades fighting against and deriding science are the enemy of man.

15 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:30:53pm

re: #3 Joo-LiZ

The question is -- what can we do about it?

Sounds like this will need a direct fix rather than a long-term reduction of our output.

How about stop importing shit from China

16 Joo-LiZ  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:31:13pm

re: #9 Obdicut

We can't really direct fix this. It's gas bubbling up over a huge area.

We need to hyperinvest in green technology. We need to do it right away. Nuclear, tidal generators, hydro, solar, everygoddamnthing, right away. We need to stop throwing away crap when it gets a little break and fix it instead. We need to look back at some of the values of our ancestors-- the smart ones, anyway.

We need to culturally admit that this is fucking happening, which, thanks to nihilists and greedheads, is now an uphill battle.

We need to develop carbon capture technology, so that we can start sucking CO2 out of the air. Methane, too-- but that's still not a 'direct' fix because there's no way we can do it at the rate it's being emitted.

And we have to hope we have enough time, and that the weird, nihilistic forces fighting against letting people understand the situation don't triumph.

I have become very pessimistic about that.

Totally agree with what I bolded. I'm not as pessimistic as you about there being nothing we can do directly, though.

We absolutely need to invest in the R&D for greentech and things which'll help roll back the impact of greenhouse gases. I'm sure there are ways, we just need to find them.

17 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:32:39pm

re: #15 Alouette

How about stop importing shit from China

I believe there's a little country in the Middle East constantly coming up some of the most innovative solutions in regards to agricultural and structural problems.

[Link: www.metrogreenbusiness.com...]

18 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:32:39pm

I don't think I have been "alarmed" about Global Climate Change until reading this. Concerned yes, but not alarmed.

19 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:32:41pm

re: #11 Cato the Elder

It doesn't matter whether further studies are done or not, or whether those calling for them are denialists or real scientists.

If these new findings are true, and it starts a positive feedback loop as stated, humanity will have no more to say or do about it than we currently do about the periodicity of comets.

I for one am not going to let it spoil my reading, eating, drinking, sleeping or farting for whatever time I have left in this world.

Which has pretty much been my attitude to things I can't change all along.

Sorry, I can't agree with this approach. Somehow I've ended up with a megaphone, and I'm going to continue screaming through it.

The human race is in big trouble, and I'm not going down without a fight.

20 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:32:49pm

re: #9 Obdicut

carbon capture technology? you mean like trees?

21 freetoken  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:33:59pm

re: #14 Obdicut

We have to deal with fossil fuel depletion this century anyway, so things like solar, wind, and nuclear energy will continue to grow.

Yet my question remains - should I just turn into Cato a doomer and be done with it? Just accept our fate as the last of the progressing human generations, and that from downhill we will doom ourselves through one of several mechanisms?

22 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:34:23pm

re: #20 brookly red

Trees are good, and biotech definitely has some of the most promise in the area of direct carbon capture. Algae is another potential huge benefit in that area.

But we need so much more spending on it, we need a market that accurately reflects the real price of pollutants if we want the private market to actually push innovation as quickly as we need it.

23 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:34:41pm

re: #20 brookly red

carbon capture technology? you mean like trees?

I believe someone has come up with artificial tree-like things which are more efficient.

24 freetoken  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:35:10pm

re: #21 freetoken

pimf "here on downhill"

25 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:35:42pm

re: #21 freetoken

We have to deal with fossil fuel depletion this century anyway, so things like solar, wind, and nuclear energy will continue to grow.

Yet my question remains - should I just turn into Cato a doomer and be done with it? Just accept our fate as the last of the progressing human generations, and that from downhill we will doom ourselves through one of several mechanisms?

well you could stop whining and plant a few trees... they are inexpensive and currently have no government regulation... go for it.

26 political lunatic  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:36:11pm

Thank you, "GOP" and a few corporate Democrats, for blocking climate legislation and trying to keep the same status quo until we all run out of oxygen to breathe. Fuckers, all of them.

27 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:36:16pm

re: #22 Obdicut

Trees are good, and biotech definitely has some of the most promise in the area of direct carbon capture. Algae is another potential huge benefit in that area.

But we need so much more spending on it, we need a market that accurately reflects the real price of pollutants if we want the private market to actually push innovation as quickly as we need it.

It is possible that we've gone as far as we are going to get in this cycle. It does not mean humanity is doomed, but we may be in for a major downcycle.

28 jamesfirecat  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:36:31pm

re: #19 Charles

Sorry, I can't agree with this approach. Somehow I've ended up with a megaphone, and I'm going to continue screaming through it.

The human race is in big trouble, and I'm not going down without a fight.


"Mankind." That word should have new meaning for all of us today. We can't be consumed by our petty differences anymore. We will be united in our common interests. Perhaps it's fate that today is the Fourth of July, and you will once again be fighting for our freedom... Not from tyranny, oppression, or persecution... but from annihilation. We are fighting for our right to live. To exist. And should we win the day, the Fourth of July will no longer be known as an American holiday, but as the day the world declared in one voice: "We will not go quietly into the night!" We will not vanish without a fight! We're going to live on! We're going to survive! Today we celebrate our Independence Day!

29 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:36:47pm

re: #7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

So, the Ruskies finally won.

Communist plot!
/glenn beck

30 Stanghazi  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:36:50pm

Myself, I've favorited and actually printed out LVQ's suggestions on what we can do as an individual. Change our behavior & spread the word.

Charles does his part in a much larger way by posting this info.

Do what you can, learn as much as possible & spread the word.

31 Digital Display  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:37:08pm

re: #20 brookly red

carbon capture technology? you mean like trees?

For 30 years the rain forests have disappeared..And have had great devastation on Earth..
Ludwig has has some good posts about this

32 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:37:10pm

re: #23 Conservative Moonbat

I believe someone has come up with artificial tree-like things which are more efficient.

well yes maybe... how much do they cost? or do you just want to go with the real thing?

33 freetoken  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:37:30pm

re: #25 brookly red

Many years ago, when I was young, I planted some trees. A couple of years ago I went back to that spot.

Someone had cut all the trees down.

34 ghazidor  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:37:54pm
And if this proves to be true, my friends, it will put every other concern of human beings on the back burner.

Well, perhaps, at least until Sarah Palin announces that she is pregnant again, then no one (including the news networks) will pay it any attention at all.

/the truth hurts ehh?

35 Joo-LiZ  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:38:01pm

re: #28 jamesfirecat

"Mankind." That word should have new meaning for all of us today. We can't be consumed by our petty differences anymore. We will be united in our common interests. Perhaps it's fate that today is the Fourth of July, and you will once again be fighting for our freedom... Not from tyranny, oppression, or persecution... but from annihilation. We are fighting for our right to live. To exist. And should we win the day, the Fourth of July will no longer be known as an American holiday, but as the day the world declared in one voice: "We will not go quietly into the night!" We will not vanish without a fight! We're going to live on! We're going to survive! Today we celebrate our Independence Day!

What is this from?

(and if it's just you... where can I get a time machine like yours!!
// )

36 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:38:06pm

re: #25 brookly red

well you could stop whining and plant a few trees... they are inexpensive and currently have no government regulation... go for it.

and stanely you object to planting trees because ?

37 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:38:09pm

re: #26 political lunatic

Thank you, "GOP" and a few corporate Democrats, for blocking climate legislation and trying to keep the same status quo until we all run out of oxygen to breathe. Fuckers, all of them.

thanks for blocking nuclear power, lefty. can we skip the boring partisan part and go back to the part where methane scares the bejesus out of me?

38 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:38:32pm

re: #21 freetoken

Nah. I don't think that's true. We survived the Dark Ages and thought continued. This time around we have a lot better ways at preserving knowledge, too. I don't think that things will be bad enough to turn Earth into a place uninhabitable by man. It's possible-- and that's scary as hell-- but it's not the necessary outcome.

Mankind has kind of woken up very recently to the truth that the world was not created for us and owes us no special favors. Very quickly after that we realized that, small as we were, we could change the earth. This was a wonderful thing at first, as we fantasized about controlling the atmosphere-- but we found what we were doing was nowhere near control.

Every moment of humanity's existence we've been in danger of being wiped out by a meteorite, or a supervolcano exploding. It hasn't stopped us from achieving what we have.

We're humans. We face death all our life. We are the only thing that can fight back against the tyranny of the selfish replicators and the silence of space.

And we very often look cool doing it.

39 jamesfirecat  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:38:35pm

re: #33 freetoken

Many years ago, when I was young, I planted some trees. A couple of years ago I went back to that spot.

Someone had cut all the trees down.

Dude that's like something out of a depressing black and white art student film!

40 jamesfirecat  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:39:20pm

re: #35 Joo-LiZ

What is this from?

(and if it's just you... where can I get a time machine like yours!!
// )

Its a quote from the movie Independence Day. Its the big speech that the hero/president gives before everyone takes off in airplanes to fight the aliens...

41 Stanghazi  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:39:24pm

re: #36 brookly red

and stanely you object to planting trees because ?

It's your typical negative attitude I object to. Is it really fun for you?

42 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:39:29pm

re: #33 freetoken

Many years ago, when I was young, I planted some trees. A couple of years ago I went back to that spot.

Someone had cut all the trees down.

I've got the vid for that:

43 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:39:46pm

re: #21 freetoken

We have to deal with fossil fuel depletion this century anyway, so things like solar, wind, and nuclear energy will continue to grow.

Yet my question remains - should I just turn into Cato a doomer and be done with it? Just accept our fate as the last of the progressing human generations, and that from downhill we will doom ourselves through one of several mechanisms?

If all else fails there's geoengineering, stuff like putting thousands of football stadium sized mirrors in orbit. Other solutions, like eliminating the use of fossil fuels, are more practical and less costly.

44 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:40:13pm

re: #33 freetoken

Many years ago, when I was young, I planted some trees. A couple of years ago I went back to that spot.

Someone had cut all the trees down.

well that sucks but I used to plant chestnut trees... but on the real side they are the most efficient way to go.

45 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:40:21pm

re: #19 Charles

Sorry, I can't agree with this approach. Somehow I've ended up with a megaphone, and I'm going to continue screaming through it.

The human race is in big trouble, and I'm not going down without a fight.

I'm not asking you to. In fact I greatly admire you for your tenacity.

All I'm saying is that if things get started upon which any modifications we humans undertake in the future will have absolutely no short-, medium-, or long-term effect (as in the feedback loop described in this post), then all bets are off.

Which has been my guess about the outcome since the whole debate started. I mean, we can't even get an agreement to agree on someday agreeing about what to do some sunny day about anthropogenic CO2. How can we hope to do anything about methane from the bottom of the goddamn ocean?

Anyway, it's no fun, this bone-deep pessimism of mine. But I have to call 'em like I sees 'em.

46 Joo-LiZ  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:40:38pm

re: #40 jamesfirecat

Its a quote from the movie Independence Day. Its the big speech that the hero/president gives before everyone takes off in airplanes to fight the aliens...

Damn, I knew that looked familiar.

I didn't recognize it out of context, and it fits this thread a little too well, minus the Independence Day part.

47 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:41:25pm

re: #41 Stanley Sea

It's your typical negative attitude I object to. Is it really fun for you?

OK now, please explain how planting trees is a negative attitude?

48 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:41:43pm

1st world humans need a dramatic attitude change...we still have major difficulties with the most minor problems...nuclear energy is a principle factor in this energy/CO2 crisis and we can't even get that online...fresh water is soon to become a regional crisis...
two words
Hyperion
a lot of them and fast

49 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:41:46pm

re: #34 ausador

Well, perhaps, at least until Sarah Palin announces that she is pregnant again, then no one (including the news networks) will pay it any attention at all.

/the truth hurts ehh?

If there is a major methane outgassing incident, nobody is going to give a shit about Sarah Palin any more.

I wasn't kidding with the 'Apocalypse' part of this title. I really hope this turns out to be a false alarm.

50 Irenicum  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:41:53pm

re: #19 Charles

Amen Charles! And thank you for using the megaphone you've been given so well.

51 Interesting Times  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:41:58pm

re: #14 Obdicut

Nah. I don't think that's true. We survived the Dark Ages and thought continued. This time around we have a lot better ways at preserving knowledge, too. I don't think that things will be bad enough to turn Earth into a place uninhabitable by man. It's possible-- and that's scary as hell-- but it's not the necessary outcome.

I hope you're right, though I must confess that, in darker moments, I seriously wonder if the human race will simply go extinct in 100-200 years.

As for all life on earth? This guy, at least, may still be around...

52 Joo-LiZ  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:42:40pm

re: #45 Cato the Elder

I'm not asking you to. In fact I greatly admire you for your tenacity.

All I'm saying is that if things get started upon which any modifications we humans undertake in the future will have absolutely no short-, medium-, or long-term effect (as in the feedback loop described in this post), then all bets are off.

Which has been my guess about the outcome since the whole debate started. I mean, we can't even get an agreement to agree on someday agreeing about what to do some sunny day about anthropogenic CO2. How can we hope to do anything about methane from the bottom of the goddamn ocean?

Anyway, it's no fun, this bone-deep pessimism of mine. But I have to call 'em like I sees 'em.

Which is why I think the solution is not to focus on the long-term reduction of emissions, although that is a component.

Rather, we should be looking to science and tech to help us come up with those short- and middle- term solutions that'll save our asses.

Not to mention, greentech is a whole industry unto itself -- hello, economy?

53 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:43:05pm

re: #37 Aceofwhat?

I'm sorry, Ace, but the GOP is actively promoting climate denial. They have actual representatives denying its existence. This is at least somewhat partisan.

For those of you worried about national security, climate change is the greatest threat to our national security.

[Link: www.trumanproject.org...]

54 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:43:15pm

re: #49 Charles

Indeed. Methane is a game-changer.

55 jamesfirecat  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:43:34pm

re: #46 Joo-LiZ

Damn, I knew that looked familiar.

I didn't recognize it out of context, and it fits this thread a little too well, minus the Independence Day part.

Charles saying "I'm not going down without a fight." Just turned on a light in my mind....

56 Querent  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:44:47pm

now... how can we pipe this stuff and store it, the way we do other reserves of natural gas...

(puts on Lizard Thinking Cap™)

57 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:45:03pm

re: #53 Obdicut

I'm sorry, Ace, but the GOP is actively promoting climate denial. They have actual representatives denying its existence. This is at least somewhat partisan.

For those of you worried about national security, climate change is the greatest threat to our national security.

[Link: www.trumanproject.org...]

Yep. They do. And there are Dems actively promoting nuclear denial. they have actual representatives denying its safety and efficacy.

Can we skip back to the part where a methane is a game-changer?

58 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:45:07pm

re: #35 Joo-LiZ

What is this from?

(and if it's just you... where can I get a time machine like yours!!
// )

I could only find it dubbed into spanish

59 Joo-LiZ  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:45:42pm

re: #58 Conservative Moonbat

I could only find it dubbed into spanish


[Video]

HAHAHAHA... I just fully LOL'ed
Thanks for that.

60 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:45:54pm

re: #54 Aceofwhat?

Indeed. Methane is a game-changer.

and a mood killer....

61 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:46:36pm

re: #47 brookly red

OK now, please explain how planting trees is a negative attitude?

Stanely?

62 SilentAlfa  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:46:42pm

re: #26 political lunatic

Thank you, "GOP" and a few corporate Democrats, for blocking climate legislation and trying to keep the same status quo until we all run out of oxygen to breathe. Fuckers, all of them.

a more efficient solution to reducing greenhouse gases would be to reduce the number of people, but that would be a tad unethical. a global campaign to reduce the birth rate through education and contraceptives would probably be more successful at combating emissions than any climate legislation would, or a campaign to study the effects of agw so that the areas that will be hardest hit can prepare.

as it is, any legislation to reduce emissions currently on the table is pretty impracticable, and everybody would kick and scream if gas taxes were raised to reduce the amount people drive. and large numbers of people in america literally don't want public transportation.

sum: americans and humanity in general doesn't have the strength of will to do anything about global warming because the medicine tastes too bad

63 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:47:08pm

re: #60 brookly red

and a mood killer...

like a fart in church...

64 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:47:38pm

re: #49 Charles

Here is a paper-- from a non-denier-- that argues that although obviously methane is quite bad, this new source is not large-scale enough to have massive effects:

[Link: www.realclimate.org...]


Anyway, so far it is at most a very small feedback. The Siberian Margin might rival the whole rest of the world ocean as a methane source, but the ocean source overall is much smaller than the land source. Most of the methane in the atmosphere comes from wetlands, natural and artificial associated with rice agriculture. The ocean is small potatoes, and there is enough uncertainty in the methane budget to accommodate adjustments in the sources without too much overturning of apple carts.

Could this be the first modest sprout of what will grow into a huge carbon feedback in the future? It is possible, but two things should be kept in mind. One is that there’s no reason to fixate on methane in particular. Methane is a transient gas in the atmosphere, while CO2 essentially accumulates in the atmosphere / ocean carbon cycle, so in the end the climate forcing from the accumulating CO2 that methane oxidizes into may be as important as the transient concentration of methane itself. The other thing to remember is that there’s no reason to fixate on methane hydrates in particular, as opposed to the carbon stored in peats in Arctic permafrosts for example. Peats take time to degrade but hydrate also takes time to melt, limited by heat transport. They don’t generally explode instantaneously.

For methane to be a game-changer in the future of Earth’s climate, it would have to degas to the atmosphere catastrophically, on a time scale that is faster than the decadal lifetime of methane in the air. So far no one has seen or proposed a mechanism to make that happen.

In other words, since methane only lasts in the air for about eight years or so, the rate of outgassing will have to be such that its occurring faster than that eight-year span.

The paper makes it very clear that CO2 on its own has plenty of power to fuck us, still.

This paper also makes it clear that climate scientists are not alarmists.

65 jaunte  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:47:56pm

re: #54 Aceofwhat?

Indeed. Methane is a game-changer.

More warming will also begin to introduce hydrogen sulfide into the mix:

The actual composition of the clathrates is critical in predicting the consequences. Carbon dioxide clathrates could produce additional greenhouse gases. However, carbon dioxide is relatively beign compared to methane, which has about 20 times the greenhouse warming potential as carbon dioxide. In the near term in the water column, release of very toxic hydrogen sulfide could be a real problem particularly for fish populations in addition to anoxia. The existence of marine hydrogen sulfide clathrates has been demonstrated dramatically with the toxic release of hydrogen sulfide from a clathrate core on the deck of the deep-sea drilling ship (Francis and Olivas, 1993). Considering the depth of the sills in the pycnocline, the timing of any potential destabilization will be delayed to many years after the actual surface warming.[Link: www.marscigrp.org...]
66 swamprat  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:48:25pm

DAM HERE. DAM NOW!

Will someone PLEASE pay greenfreak to take care of the minnow/frog/ leafyscratchwort/whatever?
We can discuss ransom at a later date.

67 b_snark  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:48:34pm

re: #15 Alouette

How about stop importing shit from China

In ten years China will have more green technology than the US & Canada.

68 Joo-LiZ  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:49:26pm

re: #62 SilentAlfa

a more efficient solution to reducing greenhouse gases would be to reduce the number of people, but that would be a tad unethical. a global campaign to reduce the birth rate through education and contraceptives would probably be more successful at combating emissions than any climate legislation would, or a campaign to study the effects of agw so that the areas that will be hardest hit can prepare.

as it is, any legislation to reduce emissions currently on the table is pretty impracticable, and everybody would kick and scream if gas taxes were raised to reduce the amount people drive. and large numbers of people in america literally don't want public transportation.

sum: americans and humanity in general doesn't have the strength of will to do anything about global warming because the medicine tastes too bad

Which is why I advocate that the best, most practicable, and least controversial method of all (except to the absolute GW denialists (AGW or no AGW)), is to promote the growth of a sci-tech industry devoted to greentech and reversing the greenhouse emissions of the past.

I think it'd sell very well to the public on economic-merit alone.

69 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:49:30pm

re: #64 Obdicut

nicely done. i didn't know that it was an 8-yr lifespan. i thought it was closer to 80...

70 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:49:33pm

re: #57 Aceofwhat?

Yep. They do. And there are Dems actively promoting nuclear denial. they have actual representatives denying its safety and efficacy.

Can we skip back to the part where a methane is a game-changer?

Ace, the GOP is far more anti-science than the Democrats right now. It is not something I'm going to stop saying, because, unfortunately, it's not going to stop being true.

Obama's-- and the rest of the Democrats'-- support for corn biodiesel is bullshit. Cap and trade is mostly bullshit. The Democrats are not winning any medals.

However, the GOP is the one nice and cosy with the same groups promoting AGW denial, attacking and smearing scientists, and wasting the time of the world. The Democrats are being ineffectual. The GOP has people actively contributing to the spread of disinformation on the subject of AGW.

71 What, me worry?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:49:47pm

re: #62 SilentAlfa

One child per man, than a vasectomy. Off with their heads!

The problem seems more imminent than population control, but I don't know what to do about it. I mean, I've been green before green was cool and it's still happening.

I think Ludwig was talking about this last week.

72 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:50:01pm

re: #64 Obdicut

Here is a paper-- from a non-denier-- that argues that although obviously methane is quite bad, this new source is not large-scale enough to have massive effects:

[Link: www.realclimate.org...]

In other words, since methane only lasts in the air for about eight years or so, the rate of outgassing will have to be such that its occurring faster than that eight-year span.

The paper makes it very clear that CO2 on its own has plenty of power to fuck us, still.

This paper also makes it clear that climate scientists are not alarmists.

Interesting. It is a matter requiring intense study. Study many Republicans would try to block (foolishly).

73 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:50:04pm

re: #67 b_sharp

In ten years China will have more green technology than the US & Canada.

of course they will... they can profit from it.

74 Joo-LiZ  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:50:05pm

re: #68 Joo-LiZ

Which is why I advocate that the best, most practicable, and least controversial method of all (except to the absolute GW denialists (AGW or no AGW)), is to promote the growth of a sci-tech industry devoted to greentech and reversing the greenhouse emissions of the past.

I think it'd sell very well to the public on economic-merit alone.

I wanna add... I realize it's not as easy as I'm making it sound, but I think it's at least as practical as anything else being suggested.

75 jamesfirecat  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:50:47pm

re: #73 brookly red

of course they will... they can profit from it.

Which is of course a very strange thing for a communist country to be doing....

76 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:51:26pm

re: #70 Obdicut

Ace, the GOP is far more anti-science than the Democrats right now. It is not something I'm going to stop saying, because, unfortunately, it's not going to stop being true.

Obama's-- and the rest of the Democrats'-- support for corn biodiesel is bullshit. Cap and trade is mostly bullshit. The Democrats are not winning any medals.

However, the GOP is the one nice and cosy with the same groups promoting AGW denial, attacking and smearing scientists, and wasting the time of the world. The Democrats are being ineffectual. The GOP has people actively contributing to the spread of disinformation on the subject of AGW.

so what?....the answer is obvious and partisan/green politics will have to yield....BO can make it happen

77 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:51:49pm

Howabout a 250 mile long hose going into space?

78 What, me worry?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:51:58pm

re: #68 Joo-LiZ

Which is why I advocate that the best, most practicable, and least controversial method of all (except to the absolute GW denialists (AGW or no AGW)), is to promote the growth of a sci-tech industry devoted to greentech and reversing the greenhouse emissions of the past.

I think it'd sell very well to the public on economic-merit alone.

Energy companies here in the states are already putting R&D into alternative fuels. The hope is they aren't too late.

79 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:52:30pm

re: #70 Obdicut

Ace, the GOP is far more anti-science than the Democrats right now. It is not something I'm going to stop saying, because, unfortunately, it's not going to stop being true.

Obama's-- and the rest of the Democrats'-- support for corn biodiesel is bullshit. Cap and trade is mostly bullshit. The Democrats are not winning any medals.

However, the GOP is the one nice and cosy with the same groups promoting AGW denial, attacking and smearing scientists, and wasting the time of the world. The Democrats are being ineffectual. The GOP has people actively contributing to the spread of disinformation on the subject of AGW.

i think that's a succinct and fairly accurate summary. The GOP is more anti-science than the Democrats on AGW right now, which is not to say that the Democrats deserve a soapbox and a medal.

fair enough.

80 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:52:30pm

re: #28 jamesfirecat

"Mankind." That word should have new meaning for all of us today. We can't be consumed by our petty differences anymore. We will be united in our common interests. Perhaps it's fate that today is the Fourth of July, and you will once again be fighting for our freedom... Not from tyranny, oppression, or persecution... but from annihilation. We are fighting for our right to live. To exist. And should we win the day, the Fourth of July will no longer be known as an American holiday, but as the day the world declared in one voice: "We will not go quietly into the night!" We will not vanish without a fight! We're going to live on! We're going to survive! Today we celebrate our Independence Day!

Bad movie, worse speech, and the unity of mankind in the face of evil gasses from the sea is about as likely as Palestinians waking up tomorrow and giving Israel a collective hug.

Now, if it were actually Martians or Cthulhu we were fighting against, we might stand a chance...

81 freetoken  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:52:31pm

Here is where this all fits into contemporary American politics:

The US Senate has yet to pass the Law of The Sea treaty, an international treaty to which most nations have signed and which is the legal instrument for those nations to deal with issues regarding the oceans and property rights.

However, in the US Senate there are certain ideologues (e.g., Inhofe) who, because LoTS is a UN thing, refuse to go along. Even though various US institutions, such as the US Navy, and private concerns, such as oil companies, are all for it.

This irrational fear of "world governance" and being taken over by the "blue helmets" has a death grip on the American political leadership.

This is just one planet. Just one. We all live on it together. With our population explosion we now live all over the planet. This means we will have to come to agreements on how to manage our planet.

That however is ideological poison to the old guard in certain parts of this country. (And not just this country, but all over the world, anywhere a group of oligarchs enjoy their privileged positions.)

Mechanisms for reducing carbon emissions don't have to "Cap and Trade", yet some sort of cost mechanism will be required. Ultimately this is such a hot button issue that few nations have truly embraced the idea. Only ascetics will voluntarily turn down pleasures and conveniences consistently, so the "having less" and "doing less" strategies are non-starters.

I don't expect "big issues" like this to be discussed seriously at tonight's GOP SLC. Anyone who would broach these issues (from the viewpoint of designing actions to address them) will be labeled "elitist" or some other now derogatory phrase.

Like my discussion with Thanos downstairs about nuclear energy and weapons - pretending these issues don't exist won't make them go away.

As for climate catastrophe - I still encourage people to not think in Roland Emmerich-style scenarios. We are still talking about negative consequences that take decades to roll out and even more decades to accumulate. Time is both our friend and enemy on this matter.

82 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:52:37pm

re: #70 Obdicut

Ace, the GOP is far more anti-science than the Democrats right now. It is not something I'm going to stop saying, because, unfortunately, it's not going to stop being true.

I'm not a fan of either party, but this is absolutely true.

The GOP has interpreted "conservatism" as "denialism."

83 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:52:47pm

re: #73 brookly red

of course they will... they can profit from it.

yeah, maybe so....but we still have Dancing With the Stars

84 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:52:57pm

re: #75 jamesfirecat

Which is of course a very strange thing for a communist country to be doing...

yup

85 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:53:16pm

re: #72 Dark_Falcon

And a chilling thing to think of is the final "yet". Someone may demonstrate tomorrow a mechanism that will take place due to warming that will allow methane to outgas at a speed enough to cause a runaway effect.

And CO2 on its own is going to wreak havoc enough. As the article says:

No. CO2 is plenty to be frightened of, while methane is frosting on the cake. Imagine you are in a Toyota on the highway at 60 miles per hour approaching stopped traffic, and you find that the brake pedal is broken. This is CO2. Then you figure out that the accelerator has also jammed, so that by the time you hit the truck in front of you, you will be going 90 miles per hour instead of 60. This is methane. Is now the time to get worried? No, you should already have been worried by the broken brake pedal. Methane sells newspapers, but it’s not the big story, nor does it look to be a game changer to the big story, which is CO2.

86 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:53:41pm

re: #57 Aceofwhat?

I don't like nuclear power. However, as Windy has described it, I think I am using emotional reasoning against it. Can some smart folks please come up with a reasonable way to use/store the nuclear waste? That would be great.

87 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:53:46pm

re: #9 Obdicut

We can't really direct fix this. It's gas bubbling up over a huge area.

We need to hyperinvest in green technology. We need to do it right away. Nuclear, tidal generators, hydro, solar, everygoddamnthing, right away. We need to stop throwing away crap when it gets a little break and fix it instead. We need to look back at some of the values of our ancestors-- the smart ones, anyway.

The thing I will NEVER understand is why people who are so vehemently opposed to the idea of addressing AGW seem to go out of their way to overlook the enormous potential for brand-new industries and as-yet unimagined spin-off technologies that would very likely come from treating this like the Manhattan Project or the Apollo Project.

One of the major benefits of big-ticket research projects is that they often yield things, sometimes by accident, that improve life.

Some Apollo Project spinoffs...

88 Digital Display  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:53:50pm

re: #67 b_sharp

In ten years China will have more green technology than the US & Canada.

Don't think so..China follows..It never leads...
So in 10 years I'll be buying my High tech solar panels from Wal-Mart at half the price....And we still can't figure this out? Haha

89 Joo-LiZ  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:54:36pm

re: #78 marjoriemoon

Energy companies here in the states are already putting R&D into alternative fuels. The hope is they aren't too late.

Fuels are only one aspect. As has been mentioned, Nuclear Power, Solar Power, (all those renewables)... increasing their efficiencies.

Also finding effective alternatives to common industrial materials/synthesizing new materials... etc etc.

(From this point the rest is just speculation... but) Changing the type of fuel that powers our Cars seems a little half-assed.

90 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:54:37pm

re: #86 prairiefire

Modern techniques allow reprocessing in a way that severely minimizes waste.

I'm sure someone more expert on this than I can talk about. I've been meaning to learn more about the solutions to AGW but I've had to do too much to prepare for my upcoming move.

91 ghazidor  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:54:48pm

re: #49 Charles

If there is a major methane outgassing incident, nobody is going to give a shit about Sarah Palin any more.

I wasn't kidding with the 'Apocalypse' part of this title. I really hope this turns out to be a false alarm.

While I agree I think you will have a very hard time "proving" just how much methane was released from a Siberian "outgassing event" to the deniers. Face it Charles, they are going to go right on denying it until the ocean is lapping at their doorstep. This is a very skeptical world, and an extremely skeptical (dare I say paranoid) country we are living in right now.

At best we might get a very watered down version of the already useless Obama "Cap & Trade" bill passed. There is no consensus amongst the public, therefore we are not going to be taking the initiative on this issue. :(

92 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:54:54pm

re: #10 freetoken

With regard to CITES, I am sorry to say, but, yes, you should just turn into a doomer & get over it. It's an international game plan to manage endangered ANIMALS that has been expanded to include a whole lot of things, besides animals. As a plant person, I will tell you, that even lab grown seedlings, in flask, are forbidden to trade, without CITES documents. And that the countries who are not signators to the CITES agreement, export many, many plants, that are not native to their countries. It's a bid fail. I'm stopping now, but I could keep going..

93 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:55:15pm

re: #75 jamesfirecat

Which is of course a very strange thing for a communist country to be doing...

It is OK if the state makes money (that is why they buy our debt) but the individual... not so much.

94 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:55:25pm

re: #86 prairiefire

I don't like nuclear power. However, as Windy has described it, I think I am using emotional reasoning against it. Can some smart folks please come up with a reasonable way to use/store the nuclear waste? That would be great.

well Yucca Mt was a hall of a good start, for an optimist

95 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:56:03pm

re: #86 prairiefire

I don't like nuclear power. However, as Windy has described it, I think I am using emotional reasoning against it. Can some smart folks please come up with a reasonable way to use/store the nuclear waste? That would be great.

Actually, Yucca Mountain is perfect. Word has it that a certain Democratic senator is being a whinypants about an otherwise eminently reasonable and safe solution...

We could always reprocess it too. Remember that France gets 75% of their electricity from nuclear power and still manage to be healthy enough to protest about GM corn as if it's the mark of the beast...if it's not spoiling the Bordeaux, surely we can do the same!

96 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:56:15pm

re: #77 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Howabout a 250 mile long hose going into space?

Only if it's named the USS Ron Jeremy.

97 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:56:51pm

re: #86 prairiefire

I don't like nuclear power. However, as Windy has described it, I think I am using emotional reasoning against it. Can some smart folks please come up with a reasonable way to use/store the nuclear waste? That would be great.

well currently we mold it into 30mm cannon rounds... and it scares the shit out of our enemies.

98 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:57:02pm

re: #93 brookly red

It is OK if the state makes money (that is why they buy our debt) but the individual... not so much.

Tell that to all the Chinese billionaires in Beijing, Shanghai and Hong Kong.

99 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:57:17pm

We aren't going to do shit. This will bite us in the ass while we look upon with dumbfounded stares.

100 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:57:34pm

re: #85 Obdicut

And a chilling thing to think of is the final "yet". Someone may demonstrate tomorrow a mechanism that will take place due to warming that will allow methane to outgas at a speed enough to cause a runaway effect.

And CO2 on its own is going to wreak havoc enough. As the article says:

Can't be helped. We've got to act like we can change things. It's possible we'll find out we where wrong and things are going to hell anyway. It's not a safe world. Sometimes you have to fight while not being sure of the outcome. You can do your very best and still be crushed.

101 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:58:06pm

re: #87 negativ

The thing I will NEVER understand is why people who are so vehemently opposed to the idea of addressing AGW seem to go out of their way to overlook the enormous potential for brand-new industries and as-yet unimagined spin-off technologies that would very likely come from treating this like the Manhattan Project or the Apollo Project.

One of the major benefits of big-ticket research projects is that they often yield things, sometimes by accident, that improve life.

Some Apollo Project spinoffs...

I've said all along, well for a while now, that the AGW thing needs to be readdressed as a security and economic issue....fuck the deniers...if we can't go through them, then we must go around them....butting heads for decades has gotten nowhere

102 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:58:30pm

re: #98 Cato the Elder

Tell that to all the Chinese billionaires in Beijing, Shanghai and Hong Kong.

touche.

103 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 6:59:49pm

re: #99 Varek Raith

We aren't going to do shit. This will bite us in the ass while we look upon with dumbfounded stares.

most likely, I agree

104 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:00:29pm

Here's an organization dedicated to getting America energy self-sufficient, run by veterans:

[Link: www.operationfree.net...]

105 What, me worry?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:00:42pm

re: #89 Joo-LiZ

Fuels are only one aspect. As has been mentioned, Nuclear Power, Solar Power, (all those renewables)... increasing their efficiencies.

Also finding effective alternatives to common industrial materials/synthesizing new materials... etc etc.

(From this point the rest is just speculation... but) Changing the type of fuel that powers our Cars seems a little half-assed.

That's what I'm talking about solar, wind and water.

I'm with prairefire. I think at this point, nuclear is safe, but no one can agree on what to do with the waste.

106 Varek Raith  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:01:06pm

re: #105 marjoriemoon

That's what I'm talking about solar, wind and water.

I'm with prairefire. I think at this point, nuclear is safe, but no one can agree on what to do with the waste.

Nuke it.
;)

107 freetoken  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:01:09pm

re: #64 Obdicut

Yes, that is a good point.

Yet the troubling aspect remains that the genie won't go back in the bottle.

Or more specifically in this case, the Russian waters in the Arctic, and the Siberian regions, are not going to automatically start going colder and become net methane sequesters. Rather they will continue to warm, and with that the methane release is expected to increase.

By how much, and how fast, remain to be determined.

So the alarm bell rung by the research in question is that it now becomes clear we are now going down the path of increased methane release from a large, near surface resource. It's not just an unproven hypothesis, but an observation.

108 What, me worry?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:01:28pm

re: #89 Joo-LiZ

Fuels are only one aspect. As has been mentioned, Nuclear Power, Solar Power, (all those renewables)... increasing their efficiencies.

Also finding effective alternatives to common industrial materials/synthesizing new materials... etc etc.

(From this point the rest is just speculation... but) Changing the type of fuel that powers our Cars seems a little half-assed.

Why is that half-assed? It's one of the biggest problems.

109 jaunte  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:01:59pm

Interesting nuke replacement for diesel:

Romawa B.V., Netherlands, promotes a design called Nereus. This is a 24 MWth reactor designed to fit in a container, and provide either a ship's power plant, isolated utilities, backup or peaking power. Romawa has neither produced nor is licensed to produce a nuclear reactor at this time.[citation needed]

It is basically a replacement for large diesel generators and gas turbines, but without fuel transportation expenses or air pollution. Because it requires external air, Romawa's design limits itself only to environments in which diesel engines can already be used.[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

110 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:02:16pm

re: #99 Varek Raith

We aren't going to do shit. This will bite us in the ass while we look upon with dumbfounded stares.

you do remember Yamamoto's quote about awakening a sleeping giant? yeah, like that.

111 swamprat  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:02:27pm

re: #86 prairiefire

I don't like nuclear power. However, as Windy has described it, I think I am using emotional reasoning against it. Can some smart folks please come up with a reasonable way to use/store the nuclear waste? That would be great.

We get it from the ground. It can go back there. If you think it is has been concentrated too much to go back from where we got it, it can be diluted/ reprocessed and returned. The material is far from useless,; it has many industrial and medical applications, though not nearly enough to come close to using more than a fraction.

I oppose the 'drop it into an ocean trench' method..unless it is further sealed. Putting it into known safe locations at reasonable dilution means we can go back for it when we get smarter and can utilize it.

112 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:03:03pm

re: #105 marjoriemoon

That's what I'm talking about solar, wind and water.

I'm with prairefire. I think at this point, nuclear is safe, but no one can agree on what to do with the waste.

IIRC, the biggest drawback of simply reprocessing it (i.e. concentrating and reusing it) is that it's expensive.

Which, if we're serious about this, is something we can deal with!

113 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:03:11pm

I'm beginning to think that Gaia is just sick of our shit and is trying to shrug us off like a bad habit.

114 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:03:14pm

re: #105 marjoriemoon

That's what I'm talking about solar, wind and water.

I'm with prairefire. I think at this point, nuclear is safe, but no one can agree on what to do with the waste.

meanwhile those same undecided people have no problem throwing 19 billion plastic water bottles into the ground...or producing tons of CO2 to recycle them....what a fucked up sense of priorities...stash the waste out of the way and move on

115 compound idaho  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:03:45pm

re: #105 marjoriemoon

That's what I'm talking about solar, wind and water.

I'm with prairefire. I think at this point, nuclear is safe, but no one can agree on what to do with the waste.

Reprocess it then put the rest in a hole in the ground. It really isn't too difficult. Jimmy Carter put an end to the reprocessing and the greens stopped all of the new construction back in the 70's.

116 freetoken  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:04:04pm

re: #92 Floral Giraffe

Understand the CITES issues wrt plants... used to grow orchids and several vendors complained about CITES.

But I maintain it is still a good example. Maybe even a better one given your experience with cultivated plants.

We (as a species) are failing in our management of the biosphere, or more accurately, failing in managing our impacts on the biosphere that are becoming overwhelmingly negative.

117 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:04:15pm

re: #110 brookly red

you do remember Yamamoto's quote about awakening a sleeping giant? yeah, like that.

we were sleeping then, we are comatose now....drugged with greed

118 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:04:26pm

re: #114 albusteve

Bottled water is simply the worst idea in history...

119 jaunte  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:04:42pm

Pebble bed reactor fuel:

The design and reliability of the pebbles is crucial to the reactor's simplicity and safety, because they contain the nuclear fuel. The pebbles are the size of tennis balls. Each has a mass of 210 g, 9 g of which is uranium. It takes 380,000 to fuel a reactor of 120 MWe. The pebbles are mostly high density graphite and keeps its structural stability at the maximum equilibrium temperature of the reactor. The graphite is the moderator for the reactor, and are strong containment vessels. In fact, most waste disposal plans for pebble-bed reactors plan to store the waste within the spent pebbles.[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
120 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:04:45pm

re: #101 albusteve

Our military leaders have described it as a security issue. That is part of the deny the deniers are denying.

121 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:04:54pm

And now I have to effect some positive change in my home climate, so I'll be taking off. Have a good night, LGFers.

Here's the "Get Involved" page for Operation Free, if anyone's interested.

122 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:05:19pm

re: #99 Varek Raith

We aren't going to do shit. This will bite us in the ass while we look upon with dumbfounded stares.

I wonder if our future is going to look like a perverse cross between Nightfall, Lucifer's Hammer, The Stand, and Idiocracy.

123 What, me worry?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:05:44pm

So why aren't we reprocessing it and putting it in the ground?

124 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:06:09pm

re: #114 albusteve

We recycle all the plastic in our house that we can. Also glass and paper.

125 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:06:10pm

re: #117 albusteve

we were sleeping then, we are comatose now...drugged with greed

have faith... the giant is awakening & will be grumpy and hungry soon enough.

126 What, me worry?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:06:27pm

re: #122 negativ

The Stand was a real let down.

127 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:06:59pm

re: #123 marjoriemoon

So why aren't we reprocessing it and putting it in the ground?

That's the million-dolla question...anyone on the left want to field this one?

128 What, me worry?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:07:37pm

re: #127 Aceofwhat?

That's the million-dolla question...anyone on the left want to field this one?

It's those damn tree-huggers, huh.

(rolling my eyes)

129 compound idaho  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:08:01pm

re: #123 marjoriemoon

Ask the French. They have been doing it for nearly half a century. I grew tired of debating it about 30 years ago.

130 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:08:01pm

re: #124 prairiefire

We recycle all the plastic in our house that we can. Also glass and paper.

yep. likewise. the plastic, especially. i'm a theocrat about the plastic recycling...

131 b_snark  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:08:11pm

re: #57 Aceofwhat?

Yep. They do. And there are Dems actively promoting nuclear denial. they have actual representatives denying its safety and efficacy.

Can we skip back to the part where a methane is a game-changer?

The older units do cause more problems than they solve. We need to go with GenIII and invest in GenIV research. Unfortunately, the costs involved are excruciatingly high so we won't see any real movement toward nuke until the costs of not doing so exceed those of doing so. Or until we can convince the majority that the costs in the immediate future warrant spending the money now. This is what people like Hansen, Real Climate, and Charles have been trying to do.

I'm afraid there will not be the will to go nuke until the problem is large and in our face.

132 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:08:32pm

re: #120 prairiefire

Our military leaders have described it as a security issue. That is part of the deny the deniers are denying.

and the economic aspect is even more succinct and obvious....BO will win my admiration the day he puts 100 companies onto manufacturing Hyperions....if he can buy GM, he can do that

133 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:08:49pm

re: #127 Aceofwhat?

That's the million-dolla question...anyone on the left want to field this one?

dude never ask a liberal why... they will only tell you cause we need a trillion dollar program to do so.

134 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:08:59pm

re: #116 freetoken

We (as a species) are failing in our management of the biosphere, or more accurately, failing in managing our impacts on the biosphere that are becoming overwhelmingly negative.

We're glorified monkeys, dammit! We weren't designed to "manage the biosphere". We were made to live in groups, copulate, reproduce, multiply, and eat everything in sight. Our big brains that have allowed us to play golf on the moon and vaporize cities - aren't they the problem, not the solution?

In any case I'm not looking forward to meeting the ones appointed to "manage" the goddamn biosphere on my behalf. I'm betting they'll look like Stalin in a white lab coat.

135 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:09:03pm

re: #116 freetoken

Some, if not many of the countries with CITES issues, with regard to plants, are waking up and refusing any & all exports. Peru with Phragmipedium kovatchii, for example. Yes, I'm being specific to orchids, but I understand the cycad folks have an even worse time! I think it's great to see a country control the uniqueness of it's species & protect them. I hope it works. It's so far, doing well for P. kovatchii.

136 Bagua  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:09:50pm

Today the World Bank approved the $3.75 billion loan for Eskom's 4.8GW coal-fired electricity mega-plant in South Africa.

When fully operational in 2015, it will be burning 14.6 million tons of coal per year, and over its lifetime will add about 1.5 billion tons of CO2 to the atmosphere, which is about three times the total annual UK emissions.

India has six of these huge stations planned. China had 1.95 trillion kilowatt-hours per year online by 2006, and is said to be building the equivalent of two new coal-fired 500-MWe plants every week.

According to the IEA reference scenario, China will account for 39% of increased global CO2 between 2004 and 2030.

These numbers demonstrate that our efforts to make reductions in the Western world are no more than a farce.

137 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:09:59pm

re: #131 b_sharp

The older units do cause more problems than they solve. We need to go with GenIII and invest in GenIV research. Unfortunately, the costs involved are excruciatingly high so we won't see any real movement toward nuke until the costs of not doing so exceed those of doing so. Or until we can convince the majority that the costs in the immediate future warrant spending the money now. This is what people like Hansen, Real Climate, and Charles have been trying to do.

I'm afraid there will not be the will to go nuke until the problem is large and in our face.

I'm all about Gen3 and Gen4 research. Agree completely.

138 What, me worry?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:10:34pm

re: #133 brookly red

dude never ask a liberal why... they will only tell you cause we need a trillion dollar program to do so.

Pfffttttt....

[Link: www.ocrwm.doe.gov...]

Managing nuclear waste: Options considered

Very deep-hole disposal

Another option scientists investigated was disposal in very deep holes: placing high-level radioactive waste containers as deep as about six miles (10,000 meters) underground. At such depths, the radioactivity theoretically could be isolated until it decayed to a safe level.

Very deep-hole disposal was rejected as an option, however. While it would keep radioactive waste below most groundwater, the surrounding rock would have to retain its structure under extreme heat and radiation.

Scientists do not know enough about how radioactive waste would behave under the exceptionally high pressures and temperatures of very deep holes.

139 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:10:46pm

re: #128 marjoriemoon

It's those damn tree-huggers, huh.

(rolling my eyes)

NIMBYs, actually. Sorry. don't ask the question if you don't like the answer;)

140 Unakite  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:11:06pm

"The East Siberian Arctic Shelf, a methane-rich area that encompasses more than 2 million square kilometers of seafloor..."

I guess my two cents may not be worth much, but methane is "frozen" in ocean floor sediments in a form that is known as a clathrate compound or clathrate hydrate. These compounds have been known for a long time, are very common, and exist in the shallow ocean sediments off the east coast of the United States, among many other places.

I suspect that the shallow ocean floor below the Atlantic ocean off of the east coast of the United States is much warmer than the East Siberian Arctic Shelf, and I would like to see how long they have been monitoring for methane. It's possible that the methane has been "bubbling up" naturally for a long time (just like oil naturally seeps into the Gulf of Mexico), and they only found it when they when they went looking for it.

141 The Yankee  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:11:08pm

Let's say that this does happen and it does cause a positive feedback. What would need to happen for elected officials to stop ignoring it and do something about it.

The Republicans are against AGW but the Democrats are not ready to put their careers on the line to do something about it.

From what i know about the issue Russia is in complete denial about AGW.

I think at the end of the day what we are going to end up with is irreversible damage to the environment, and a huge dome over this thing. As well as white rooftops, white roads, and less then 6 billion people rather then more.

142 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:11:21pm

re: #133 brookly red

dude never ask a liberal why... they will only tell you cause we need a trillion dollar program to do so.

liberal/activist/green federal judges have the entire nation by the balls....toss in a few senate majority leaders and the thing is DOA

143 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:11:39pm

re: #126 marjoriemoon

The Movie? Or the Book? (and don't you dare say the book)

144 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:11:47pm

re: #138 marjoriemoon

Pfffttt...

[Link: www.ocrwm.doe.gov...]

Managing nuclear waste: Options considered

Very deep-hole disposal

Another option scientists investigated was disposal in very deep holes: placing high-level radioactive waste containers as deep as about six miles (10,000 meters) underground. At such depths, the radioactivity theoretically could be isolated until it decayed to a safe level.

Very deep-hole disposal was rejected as an option, however. While it would keep radioactive waste below most groundwater, the surrounding rock would have to retain its structure under extreme heat and radiation.

Scientists do not know enough about how radioactive waste would behave under the exceptionally high pressures and temperatures of very deep holes.

so the French put their's where?

145 What, me worry?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:11:52pm

re: #139 Aceofwhat?

NIMBYs, actually. Sorry. don't ask the question if you don't like the answer;)

I haven't snarked you in awhile. You were due :p

146 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:12:13pm

re: #138 marjoriemoon

What do the French do with theirs? This isn't an unsolved mystery, ma chère amie...

147 freetoken  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:12:23pm

re: #134 Cato the Elder

Our big brains that have allowed us to play golf on the moon and vaporize cities - aren't they the problem, not the solution?

We should never have come down from the trees, eh?

148 compound idaho  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:13:22pm

re: #138 marjoriemoon

Pfffttt...

[Link: www.ocrwm.doe.gov...]

Managing nuclear waste: Options considered

Very deep-hole disposal

Another option scientists investigated was disposal in very deep holes: placing high-level radioactive waste containers as deep as about six miles (10,000 meters) underground. At such depths, the radioactivity theoretically could be isolated until it decayed to a safe level.

Very deep-hole disposal was rejected as an option, however. While it would keep radioactive waste below most groundwater, the surrounding rock would have to retain its structure under extreme heat and radiation.

Scientists do not know enough about how radioactive waste would behave under the exceptionally high pressures and temperatures of very deep holes.

One thing about nuclear waste is that if you ignore it long enough it actually does go away. The hotter the waste, the faster it goes.

149 Unakite  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:13:31pm

re: #7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

So, the Ruskies finally won.

But they still needed chemical enhancement. :)

150 What, me worry?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:13:34pm

re: #143 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The Movie? Or the Book? (and don't you dare say the book)

The Movie for sure, but then I tried to read the book. The first part was most excellent, but it stopped making sense from what I recall. I still got the feeling he hurried to finish it.

151 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:13:57pm

Semi-OT: I looked into solar cells last week. They still aren't close to being economically viable and the companies that install them are these cheap crappy companies that barely have a functional website. Let's hope Obama's socialist tyrannical rampage results in some useful and affordable solar energy for the average Joe.

152 b_snark  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:14:00pm

re: #73 brookly red

of course they will... they can profit from it.

Damn right.

We should should be pushing green tech just for the economy's sake, since AGW is such a turn off for some.

153 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:14:04pm

re: #145 marjoriemoon

I haven't snarked you in awhile. You were due :p

it's so true! i loved it. feels like it's the old you again;)

154 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:14:22pm

re: #147 freetoken

We should never have come down from the trees, eh?

It was probably a very bad idea.

No, it wasn't. But the greatest law in human history is the law of unintended consequences.

155 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:14:24pm

re: #150 marjoriemoon

Loved the book. First version (there seems to be a reason for the cutting room floor).

156 What, me worry?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:14:37pm

re: #144 brookly red

so the French put their's where?

Doesn't make them right. We currently have nuclear facilities in many states, I think. Most states, in fact. And we're a lot larger than France.

157 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:14:46pm

re: #146 Aceofwhat?

What do the French do with theirs? This isn't an unsolved mystery, ma chère amie...

Belgian... the're expendable...

158 freetoken  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:14:57pm

re: #140 Unakite

There are detailed maps of methane clathrates around the world. The problem in Siberia is that they are very near the surface, and the ocean waters are being affected greatly by the warmer run-off from the land.

Even at the equator, the deep sea water temperatures are around 0C, or even below that. By the time the clathrates on the slope of the NA Atlantic continental shelf decompose I suppose our goose would be very well cooked.

159 Digital Display  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:15:15pm

re: #105 marjoriemoon

That's what I'm talking about solar, wind and water.

I'm with prairefire. I think at this point, nuclear is safe, but no one can agree on what to do with the waste.

As a nuke for 20 years for the Navy..I have strong opinions of operations, Safety and waste...
If America Puts on it's big boy pants we can deliver clean electrical energy with Nuclear energy safely...
I worry often that are leadership are idiots and have no long range vision or planning or quite frankly.. No knowledge of Nuclear Engineering.. For God sakes America...If you really can't handle it the responsibility..Hire the Fucking French..You know the guys you make fun of?
We are developing advanced reactors...embrace technology America

160 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:15:19pm

re: #138 marjoriemoon

Pfffttt...

[Link: www.ocrwm.doe.gov...]

Managing nuclear waste: Options considered

Very deep-hole disposal

Another option scientists investigated was disposal in very deep holes: placing high-level radioactive waste containers as deep as about six miles (10,000 meters) underground. At such depths, the radioactivity theoretically could be isolated until it decayed to a safe level.

Very deep-hole disposal was rejected as an option, however. While it would keep radioactive waste below most groundwater, the surrounding rock would have to retain its structure under extreme heat and radiation.

Scientists do not know enough about how radioactive waste would behave under the exceptionally high pressures and temperatures of very deep holes.

right now the stuff is laying around behind chain link fences all over the US...and the feds pay the states to 'secure' the waste....this whole issue of storage is a no brainer

161 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:15:23pm

re: #143 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I dated a guy who was Randall Flagg incarnate.

162 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:15:35pm

re: #142 albusteve

liberal/activist/green federal judges have the entire nation by the balls...toss in a few senate majority leaders and the thing is DOA

/ no if we only had just a few hundred billion more for research we could come with an answer by 2233... oh but wait global warming will kill us all in 50 years so never mind.

163 Unakite  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:15:38pm

re: #9 Obdicut

We can't really direct fix this. It's gas bubbling up over a huge area.

We need to hyperinvest in green technology. We need to do it right away. Nuclear, tidal generators, hydro, solar, everygoddamnthing, right away. We need to stop throwing away crap when it gets a little break and fix it instead. We need to look back at some of the values of our ancestors-- the smart ones, anyway.

We need to culturally admit that this is fucking happening, which, thanks to nihilists and greedheads, is now an uphill battle.

We need to develop carbon capture technology, so that we can start sucking CO2 out of the air. Methane, too-- but that's still not a 'direct' fix because there's no way we can do it at the rate it's being emitted.

And we have to hope we have enough time, and that the weird, nihilistic forces fighting against letting people understand the situation don't triumph.

I have become very pessimistic about that.

Heh, I like this idea, but how about harvesting the methane bubbling up out of the oceans already. No exploration, no drilling, what's the downside?

164 really grumpy big dog johnson  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:15:42pm

re: #67 b_sharp

In ten years China will have more green technology than the US & Canada.

More greenhouse gasses are released from burning seams in coal mines in China than is produced by the entirety of gasoline-powered machinery in the United States. Considering that coal fire pollution (often as a result of deliberately setting fires or sabotaging of mines) in China makes up only a significant portion of their total atmospheric pollution burden in total, it scarcely matters whether or not they have more green technology than anyone else.

If they fail to use the technology within their own borders and instead - as they steadfastly have done - continue to sell what sells abroad at handsome profit, then the net gain from their green technology will be more than offset in many ways, including the production of greenhouse gasses in order to earn those shiny new dollars it will take to purchase the Chinese technology.

Whoopy-fricking-do.

165 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:15:46pm

re: #151 Killgore Trout

Semi-OT: I looked into solar cells last week. They still aren't close to being economically viable and the companies that install them are these cheap crappy companies that barely have a functional website. Let's hope Obama's socialist tyrannical rampage results in some useful and affordable solar energy for the average Joe.

Solar energy is promising, but it's many years away from being a feasible replacement for fossil fuels.

166 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:15:46pm

That's not my Gnome

167 Stanghazi  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:16:19pm

re: #161 prairiefire

I dated a guy who was Randall Flagg incarnate.

Wow. (prairefire!)

168 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:16:24pm

re: #152 b_sharp

Damn right.

We should should be pushing green tech just for the economy's sake, since AGW is such a turn off for some.

correct....$$$$

169 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:16:33pm

re: #126 marjoriemoon

The Stand was a real let down.

I don't agree, but I can imagine why you do. While King has a few really amazing novels, he has a way of building up a GREAT story that draws you in, and makes you care about the credible if not necessarily terribly deep characters... and then writing the stupidest climax and ending imaginable. "Needful Things" and the more recent "Duma Key" are really good examples of that.

Sad to say, but I think his best full-length novels were written during the era when he was out of his mind on booze and cocaine.

Generally, though, I think he can pretty much do no wrong when it comes to his short stories.

170 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:16:39pm

re: #151 Killgore Trout

Semi-OT: I looked into solar cells last week. They still aren't close to being economically viable and the companies that install them are these cheap crappy companies that barely have a functional website. Let's hope Obama's socialist tyrannical rampage results in some useful and affordable solar energy for the average Joe.

I'm telling you. My biggest problem with the stimulus wasn't the deficit, it was the lack of focus. Take that money and say "we're going to solve three of our biggest problems in the next 20 years" and we'd be solving three of our biggest problems in the next 20 years. If that's socialism, sign this conservative up.

Instead, we're making 'shovel-ready jobs'. Blech.

171 Unakite  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:16:47pm

re: #20 brookly red

carbon capture technology? you mean like trees?

No, like capture the methane.

172 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:16:56pm

re: #157 Walter L. Newton

Belgian... the're expendable...

you win the internet-

173 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:16:57pm

re: #33 freetoken

Many years ago, when I was young, I planted some trees. A couple of years ago I went back to that spot.

Someone had cut all the trees down.

Many years ago, I planted some trees in Israel in a Jewish National Fund forest. the JNF also planted a tree for each of my kids and grandkids who were born in Israel.

Four years ago, my son drove us from the Galilee to Jerusalem and showed us all the swathes of forest that were deliberately burned down by Palestinians.

174 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:17:09pm

re: #155 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

The opening 10 minutes or so of the film were fantastic. The camera pans of all the dead scientists with, I think, "Don't Fear The Reaper."

175 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:17:10pm

This is very alarming, and I have no idea whether these methane forecasts are true. But I gotta tell ya, if this methane thing is as critical as some are saying, then the current strategy of dicking around with endless political wrangling over reducing CO2 emissions is probably a waste of precious time and resources. Instead, we need to drill down on the methane crisis and:
1. Develop the technology to mine or capture the methane gas, and then use it to generate electricity instead of using coal or natural gas; and,
2. Figure out how to refreeze the arctic tundra and sea floor. Maybe we better tell our scientists to figure out how to make a bunch of holes in the ozone layer over the north pole.

Sound crazy? For sure, but then again, if things are now critical then maybe we have no choice other than to try a few Hail Mary passes.

176 What, me worry?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:17:11pm

re: #160 albusteve

right now the stuff is laying around behind chain link fences all over the US...and the feds pay the states to 'secure' the waste...this whole issue of storage is a no brainer

That's true. It's currently stored above ground which isn't good either.

177 b_snark  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:17:22pm

re: #79 Aceofwhat?

i think that's a succinct and fairly accurate summary. The GOP is more anti-science than the Democrats on AGW right now, which is not to say that the Democrats deserve a soapbox and a medal.

fair enough.

Not to beat a dead horse, but until the GOP ejects the religious loons, anti-science/anti-intellectualism is not going to disappear.

178 freetoken  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:17:28pm

re: #154 Cato the Elder

It was probably a very bad idea.

Life in the trees had its moments... lounging in the sun all day, eating figs, flinging poo, and jumping on the first female that crossed in front of you...

179 What, me worry?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:17:36pm

re: #161 prairiefire

I dated a guy who was Randall Flagg incarnate.

spooky!

180 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:17:44pm

re: #169 negativ

concur. his short story collections are genius far beyond his novels. hair-raising stuff.

181 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:17:44pm

re: #161 prairiefire

Baby, can you dig your man...

M-O-O-N that spells "jerk".

182 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:18:00pm

re: #152 b_sharp

Damn right.

We should should be pushing green tech just for the economy's sake, since AGW is such a turn off for some.

I will buy that... I am OK with that... now just get the freaking gubermint out of the way and let people find a way to make (and keep) a buck from doing so... all good.

183 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:18:26pm

re: #170 Aceofwhat?

Big O is dumping a lot of money into sustainable energy. If we had started this 20 years ago we'd probably be in pretty good shape. Better late than never.

184 Stanghazi  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:18:32pm

re: #181 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Baby, can you dig your man...

M-O-O-N that spells "jerk".

Wolf!

185 really grumpy big dog johnson  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:18:32pm

re: #119 jaunte

Pebble bed reactor fuel:

Pebble bed has been the common sense solution for safe nuclear for some time now, but nobody is listening.

186 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:18:49pm

re: #151 Killgore Trout

Semi-OT: I looked into solar cells last week. They still aren't close to being economically viable and the companies that install them are these cheap crappy companies that barely have a functional website. Let's hope Obama's socialist tyrannical rampage results in some useful and affordable solar energy for the average Joe.

And, according to a friend who REALLY wanted to install them, they don't last long enough to pay for themselves. It'd be nice, if they could at least be a break even proposition. Well, volume will help that.

187 Stanghazi  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:18:52pm

re: #184 Stanley Sea

Wolf!

oops, wrong one, I'm thinking Talisman.

188 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:19:08pm

re: #133 brookly red

dude never ask a liberal why... they will only tell you cause we need a trillion dollar program to do so.

How much did we spend in Iraq today, and to what end?

189 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:19:19pm

re: #162 brookly red

/ no if we only had just a few hundred billion more for research we could come with an answer by 2233... oh but wait global warming will kill us all in 50 years so never mind.

really...AGW is an enormous industry where thousands make billions, yet we are no closer to accords, resolutions, or solutions....have to change the whole line of attack....make it politically valuable to the power whores in DC

190 compound idaho  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:19:22pm

re: #160 albusteve
Rate payers have been paying an additional fee for years to pay for Yucca Mtn. I suspect the utilities should be asking for the money back. Good Luck with that.

191 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:19:31pm

re: #181 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

He was a wow and a jerk and a devil all rolled up in one. Life lesson learned!

192 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:19:44pm

re: #169 negativ

"The Things They Left Behind", a Stephen King short story, was one of the most poignant fictional things I've read about 911.

193 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:19:53pm

re: #161 prairiefire

I dated a guy who was Randall Flagg incarnate.



like this?

194 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:20:00pm

re: #171 Unakite

No, like capture the methane.

Yep. We'll all be given boats, and Mason jars, and instructions on not blowing ourselves up with Zippo lighters, and we'll head out to the Bering Sea and captcha that shit.

195 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:20:01pm

re: #156 marjoriemoon

Doesn't make them right. We currently have nuclear facilities in many states, I think. Most states, in fact. And we're a lot larger than France.

uhhh that kinda does not answer the question... we have a disposal for ours (armor pricing munitions)

196 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:20:32pm

re: #193 Aceofwhat?

That's him. The Internet is amazing.

197 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:20:45pm

re: #177 b_sharp

Not to beat a dead horse, but until the GOP ejects the religious loons, anti-science/anti-intellectualism is not going to disappear.

i cannot disagree with that. i'm working on it...oddly enough, by voting for a guy named Christ.

take that!

198 What, me worry?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:20:55pm

re: #169 negativ

I don't agree, but I can imagine why you do. While King has a few really amazing novels, he has a way of building up a GREAT story that draws you in, and makes you care about the credible if not necessarily terribly deep characters... and then writing the stupidest climax and ending imaginable. "Needful Things" and the more recent "Duma Key" are really good examples of that.

Sad to say, but I think his best full-length novels were written during the era when he was out of his mind on booze and cocaine.

Generally, though, I think he can pretty much do no wrong when it comes to his short stories.

I guess because the Stand seemed so real in the beginning. Like this could actually happen, but he always throws the devil in there. It just blew it for me, among other things.

I actually enjoyed Needful Things more because you know what it's leading up to and it's a fun ride.

199 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:21:09pm
200 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:21:39pm

re: #194 Cato the Elder

Yep. We'll all be given boats, and Mason jars, and instructions on not blowing ourselves up with Zippo lighters, and we'll head out to the Bering Sea and captcha that shit.

Captcha?
Cato, is that you?

201 freetoken  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:22:35pm

re: #165 Charles

The challenge is transportation, not home heating or cooking. The chemical energy available per ounce of gasoline is amazing compared to what an ounce of a "battery" can hold.

Solar thermal, not photovoltaic, is a likely contender for replacing fossil fuels for home use, as well as generating electricity from mirror concentrated sunlight in the desert.

The automobile is one hard nut to crack.

202 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:23:10pm

re: #188 negativ

How much did we spend in Iraq today, and to what end?

I don't know and it's not my job... try [Link: www.whitehouse.com...]

203 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:23:19pm

re: #188 negativ

How much did we spend in Iraq today, and to what end?

that's pocket change now...we've transcended mere zeros at the end of a number...it's and old debate and not germain to todays problems

204 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:23:27pm

This post has enraged the wingnuts on Twitter, which greatly surprises me. Not.

205 b_snark  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:23:30pm

re: #86 prairiefire

I don't like nuclear power. However, as Windy has described it, I think I am using emotional reasoning against it. Can some smart folks please come up with a reasonable way to use/store the nuclear waste? That would be great.

Barry at BraveNewClimate has quite a bit on new technology.

206 What, me worry?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:24:10pm

re: #204 Charles

This post has enraged the wingnuts on Twitter, which greatly surprises me. Not.

Speaking of explosive methane...

(Can I do that joke twice?)

207 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:24:50pm

re: #62 SilentAlfa

a more efficient solution to reducing greenhouse gases would be to reduce the number of people, but that would be a tad unethical.

DETH PANELZ!1!1!

208 jaunte  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:24:51pm

A murder of crows.
A brace of pheasants.
A Twitter of wingnuts.

209 b_snark  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:25:04pm

re: #88 HoosierHoops

Don't think so..China follows..It never leads...
So in 10 years I'll be buying my High tech solar panels from Wal-Mart at half the price...And we still can't figure this out? Haha

Here you go Hoops.

210 avanti  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:25:05pm

Obama replies to Palin's nuclear advice.

"Palin, the former vice presidential candidate, has not been shy about criticizing Obama’s policies and this week weighed in on his revamped nuclear strategy, saying it was like a child in a playground who says ‘punch me in the face, I’m not going to retaliate.’

“I really have no response to that. The last I checked, Sarah Palin is not much of an expert on nuclear issues,” Obama said in an interview with ABC News…

What I would say to [Republican critics] is, is that if the secretary of defense and the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff are comfortable with it, I’m probably going to take my advice from them and not from Sarah Palin.”

211 compound idaho  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:25:11pm

re: #201 freetoken

The challenge is transportation, not home heating or cooking. The chemical energy available per ounce of gasoline is amazing compared to what an ounce of a "battery" can hold.

Solar thermal, not photovoltaic, is a likely contender for replacing fossil fuels for home use, as well as generating electricity from mirror concentrated sunlight in the desert.

The automobile is one hard nut to crack.

Electric vehicles; at least plug-ins? Where is the electricity going to come from? Oil really is amazing stuff.

212 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:25:18pm

re: #183 Killgore Trout

Big O is dumping a lot of money into sustainable energy. If we had started this 20 years ago we'd probably be in pretty good shape. Better late than never.

subsidies?...like corn oil?
genius!

213 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:25:39pm

re: #170 Aceofwhat?

Take that money and say "we're going to solve three of our biggest problems in the next 20 years" and we'd be solving three of our biggest problems in the next 20 years.

No, we'd be bitching back and forth about what our biggest problems are.

214 really grumpy big dog johnson  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:25:46pm

re: #171 Unakite

No, like capture the methane.

Which part? The carbon atom or the four hydrogen ones?

215 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:25:56pm

Night all.

216 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:26:05pm

re: #192 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"The Things They Left Behind", a Stephen King short story, was one of the most poignant fictional things I've read about 911.

I was just about to mention that.

217 Unakite  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:26:13pm

re: #158 freetoken

There are detailed maps of methane clathrates around the world. The problem in Siberia is that they are very near the surface, and the ocean waters are being affected greatly by the warmer run-off from the land.

Even at the equator, the deep sea water temperatures are around 0C, or even below that. By the time the clathrates on the slope of the NA Atlantic continental shelf decompose I suppose our goose would be very well cooked.

Yes, but you have to understand that "frozen" is a relative term. 0C is the freezing point for fresh water. Salt water has a lower freezing point. Methane clathrates are solid to higher temperatures. You do have a good point however about them being near the surface. the phase has to do with both pressure and temperature. Lower pressure would (i think) lead to methane being released at lower temperatures, which obviously you would find in Siberia. Need to think about this a little.

218 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:26:47pm

re: #199 Killgore Trout

Two guys frowning

ha!...there has to be an outrage in there someplace, some sort of nefarious conspiricy

219 Claire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:27:09pm

2 thoughts- first- is enough methane coming out of the permafrost on dry land that it could be burned off? Probably not, but just curious.

Second, if I did the calculation correctly, which is really hard after 3/5 bottle of 3 buck chuck shiraz, the 7 teragrams of methane being emitted is equivalent to the air column above 1/5 of a square mile of the earth's surface. Intuitively, that seems very, very, very not significant, relatively speaking, of course. The update article is helpful with putting this into perspective- thanks for that.

220 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:27:50pm

re: #213 negativ

No, we'd be bitching back and forth about what our biggest problems are.

I'd accept the Pres' top 3 in lieu of the scatterpork we have now. The focus was the most important part.

221 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:27:59pm

Evening lizards! What's happening?

222 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:28:28pm

re: #210 avanti

Obama replies to Palin's nuclear advice.

"Palin, the former vice presidential candidate, has not been shy about criticizing Obama’s policies and this week weighed in on his revamped nuclear strategy, saying it was like a child in a playground who says ‘punch me in the face, I’m not going to retaliate.’

“I really have no response to that. The last I checked, Sarah Palin is not much of an expert on nuclear issues,” Obama said in an interview with ABC News…

What I would say to [Republican critics] is, is that if the secretary of defense and the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff are comfortable with it, I’m probably going to take my advice from them and not from Sarah Palin.”

actually I have no problem with reducing nuclear warheads... the devil is in the detail. Reducing delivery systems though does kinda reduced our armed forces to that of say that of Uganda's.

223 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:28:29pm

re: #190 compound idaho

Rate payers have been paying an additional fee for years to pay for Yucca Mtn. I suspect the utilities should be asking for the money back. Good Luck with that.

right, I heard a whisper or two about lawsuits somewhere...don't recall more than that

224 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:28:31pm

re: #221 NJDhockeyfan

Evening lizards! What's happening?

Gaia is farting in church. We are not amused.

225 What, me worry?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:28:32pm

re: #208 jaunte

A murder of crows.
A brace of pheasants.
A Twitter of wingnuts.

And I ran... I ran so far away....

A flock of seagulls.

226 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:28:42pm

re: #62 SilentAlfa

a more efficient solution to reducing greenhouse gases would be to reduce the number of people, but that would be a tad unethical.

Given human history - especially that of the twentieth century - I expect it will not be long at all before that is both proposed and implemented in at least some areas of the world.

227 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:29:00pm

re: #199 Killgore Trout

Two guys frowning

They look like they're smirking.

228 really grumpy big dog johnson  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:29:16pm

re: #175 Spare O'Lake

This is very alarming, and I have no idea whether these methane forecasts are true. But I gotta tell ya, if this methane thing is as critical as some are saying, then the current strategy of dicking around with endless political wrangling over reducing CO2 emissions is probably a waste of precious time and resources. Instead, we need to drill down on the methane crisis and:
1. Develop the technology to mine or capture the methane gas, and then use it to generate electricity instead of using coal or natural gas; and,
2. Figure out how to refreeze the arctic tundra and sea floor. Maybe we better tell our scientists to figure out how to make a bunch of holes in the ozone layer over the north pole.

Sound crazy? For sure, but then again, if things are now critical then maybe we have no choice other than to try a few Hail Mary passes.

One very significant byproduct of using methane as a fuel is the creation of large amounts of CO2. True story...

229 Unakite  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:29:16pm

re: #194 Cato the Elder

Yep. We'll all be given boats, and Mason jars, and instructions on not blowing ourselves up with Zippo lighters, and we'll head out to the Bering Sea and captcha that shit.

Damn, I remember Zippo lighers!!!

230 Unakite  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:29:33pm

re: #229 Unakite

Damn, I remember Zippo lighers!!!

Lighters.
PIMF

231 freetoken  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:29:48pm

re: #217 Unakite

Yes, that is the point. At the pressures in the deep sea the clathrates are stable. However, on the coast of Siberia some of the continental shelf waters are very very shallow. So not only are the waters warming faster, the pressure is lower.

Furthermore, in land, especially in western Siberia, there is a huge load of permafrost covered land that is almost at sea level. The land is warming too... and as it does the organic material preserved becomes food for all the methagenic bacteria.

232 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:30:11pm

re: #226 Cato the Elder

Given human history - especially that of the twentieth century - I expect it will not be long at all before that is both proposed and implemented in at least some areas of the world.

nod...

233 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:30:23pm

re: #225 marjoriemoon

And I ran... I ran so far away...

A flock of seagulls.

ask and ye shall receive...

234 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:30:26pm

re: #221 NJDhockeyfan

"Blowed up, Sir!
That's a fact, Jack!"

235 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:30:38pm

re: #224 Aceofwhat?

Gaia is farting in church. We are not amused.

Can we give Gaia a large dose of Beano?

236 Unakite  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:31:29pm

re: #214 really grumpy big dog johnson

Which part? The carbon atom or the four hydrogen ones?

Uhm, it's not methane without all five???

237 sattv4u2  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:31:36pm

re: #226 Cato the Elder

Given human history - especially that of the twentieth century - I expect it will not be long at all before that is both proposed and implemented in at least some areas of the world.

China

238 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:31:54pm

re: #231 freetoken

Yes, that is the point. At the pressures in the deep sea the clathrates are stable. However, on the coast of Siberia some of the continental shelf waters are very very shallow. So not only are the waters warming faster, the pressure is lower.

Furthermore, in land, especially in western Siberia, there is a huge load of permafrost covered land that is almost at sea level. The land is warming too... and as it does the organic material preserved becomes food for all the methagenic bacteria.

we need a tundra eating insect that shits oxygen

239 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:32:36pm

re: #235 NJDhockeyfan

Can we give Gaia a large dose of Beano?

Apparently we're not supposed to feed her Beef-a-Roni.

(seinfeld reference alert)

240 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:32:49pm

re: #227 Alouette

They are trying very hard to not look happy.

241 b_snark  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:32:51pm

re: #115 compound idaho

Reprocess it then put the rest in a hole in the ground. It really isn't too difficult. Jimmy Carter put an end to the reprocessing and the greens stopped all of the new construction back in the 70's.

Canada has this rather stable land mass called the shield. We also have the technology to cut very deep holes.

242 Unakite  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:33:12pm

re: #221 NJDhockeyfan

Evening lizards! What's happening?

Methane coming out of Siberian ocean sediments. Other than that, not much.

243 lostlakehiker  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:33:37pm

re: #9 Obdicut

We can't really direct fix this. It's gas bubbling up over a huge area.

We need to hyperinvest in green technology. We need to do it right away. Nuclear, tidal generators, hydro, solar, everygoddamnthing, right away. We need to stop throwing away crap when it gets a little break and fix it instead. We need to look back at some of the values of our ancestors-- the smart ones, anyway.

We need to culturally admit that this is fucking happening, which, thanks to nihilists and greedheads, is now an uphill battle.

We need to develop carbon capture technology, so that we can start sucking CO2 out of the air. Methane, too-- but that's still not a 'direct' fix because there's no way we can do it at the rate it's being emitted.

And we have to hope we have enough time, and that the weird, nihilistic forces fighting against letting people understand the situation don't triumph.

I have become very pessimistic about that.

There are some panic-button steps available. We could nuke a national forest; the resulting soot, thrown into the stratosphere, would darken the skies for several years and drag down temps quite a bit. Not good to overdo; we could get a nuclear winter.

244 compound idaho  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:33:39pm

re: #226 Cato the Elder
Perhaps we should put our resouces into learning how to live with a warmer climate. I haven't looked into it at all. Maybe it is the cheap/only way out. The climate models in general suggest there isn't much we can do to prevent it anyway.

245 What, me worry?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:33:42pm

re: #233 Aceofwhat?

Ahh MTV in the olden days.

246 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:33:54pm

re: #241 b_sharp

Canada has this rather stable land mass called the shield. We also have the technology to cut very deep holes.

you don't need a very deep hole if you use pebbles...

247 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:34:03pm

re: #239 Aceofwhat?

Apparently we're not supposed to feed her Beef-a-Roni.

(seinfeld reference alert)

Don't let Gaia pull a cart through Central Park.

;0)

248 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:34:11pm

re: #228 really grumpy big dog johnson

One very significant byproduct of using methane as a fuel is the creation of large amounts of CO2. True story...

Well that's just fucking wonderful. Well, I suppose it'll have to be captured in the stack.

249 sattv4u2  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:34:26pm

re: #245 marjoriemoon

Ahh MTV in the olden days.

Back when they actually showed Music Videos!

250 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:34:30pm

re: #231 freetoken

Yes, that is the point. At the pressures in the deep sea the clathrates are stable. However, on the coast of Siberia some of the continental shelf waters are very very shallow. So not only are the waters warming faster, the pressure is lower.

Furthermore, in land, especially in western Siberia, there is a huge load of permafrost covered land that is almost at sea level. The land is warming too... and as it does the organic material preserved becomes food for all the methagenic bacteria.

We've known about this threat for at least 20 years.

251 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:34:50pm

re: #247 NJDhockeyfan

What ever happened with your shooter the other night?

252 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:34:53pm

re: #245 marjoriemoon

Ahh MTV in the olden days.

Back when the synthesizer was the answer to every musical question!

253 jaunte  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:35:30pm

re: #245 marjoriemoon

Ahh MTV in the olden days.

1983! Next up, Dexy's Midnight Runners....

254 b_snark  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:35:41pm

re: #127 Aceofwhat?

That's the million-dolla question...anyone on the left want to field this one?

No.

I hate admitting the gross stupidity of some of the left, so I'll just say some of us are confused.

255 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:36:20pm

re: #254 b_sharp

No.

I hate admitting the gross stupidity of some of the left, so I'll just say some of us are confused.

I'll crow louder when there isn't twice as much stupid on the right, how about that;)

256 Unakite  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:36:42pm

Gotta pick up kid from school function.
bbl.

257 lostlakehiker  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:36:48pm

re: #244 compound idaho

Perhaps we should put our resouces into learning how to live with a warmer climate. I haven't looked into it at all. Maybe it is the cheap/only way out. The climate models in general suggest there isn't much we can do to prevent it anyway.

Well, mitigation has to be part of the response.

258 swamprat  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:37:29pm

re: #255 Aceofwhat?

I'll crow louder when there isn't twice as much stupid on the right, how about that;)


Tu quoque!

259 really grumpy big dog johnson  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:37:30pm

re: #236 Unakite

Uhm, it's not methane without all five???

Capturing methane is about as practical as catching gnats with butterfly nets. It's a very tough nut to crack. Better off the find a natural reduction mechanism that actually works real-time.

Not sure how that would work, however...

260 freetoken  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:37:36pm

re: #250 Charles

We've known about this threat for at least 20 years.

Or longer.

And we've been denying it that long too.

I appreciate you trying to get people to notice the present reality of climate change. It's not some future-only scenario.

Yet I remain vexxed over our (by which I mean all the nations with modernized societies) inability to address this problem reasonably.

261 Lidane  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:37:37pm

re: #253 jaunte

1983! Next up, Dexy's Midnight Runners...

Nah. My vote's for something a bit more on topic:

;)

262 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:37:52pm

re: #255 Aceofwhat?

There isn't twice as much stupid on the right. They're just yelling louder right now.

263 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:38:18pm

re: #251 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What ever happened with your shooter the other night?

They arrested the piece of shit yesterday. Here's the latest:

STAUNTON — An Augusta County judge denied bond Thursday for the Stuarts Draft man charged in a double shooting on the Blue Ridge Parkway.

Speaking by videoconference from the Middle River Regional Jail in Verona and wearing an orange jumpsuit, Ralph Leon Jackson, 56, said he would “like to have a bond if possible.”

After General District Judge John Quigley’s ruling, Jackson responded, “Thank you very little.”

Jackson is accused of firing a shotgun at the backs of Christina S. Floyd, 18, of Palmyra, and Timothy P. Davis, 27, of Charlottesville, Monday evening as they watched the sun set off the parkway, 10 miles from the Afton entrance, at Rock Point Overlook.

Jackson has been charged with attempted capital murder, attempted murder and two counts of using or displaying a firearm in a felony, according to Augusta County Sheriff Randy Fisher’s office.

Davis is listed in critical condition and Floyd in fair condition at the University of Virginian Medical Center, authorities said. Assistant Commonwealth’s Attorney Angela Landes on Thursday described Davis’ life as “still hanging in the balance.”

The shootings touched off a massive manhunt involving Augusta County sheriff’s deputies, state police and federal agents.

Floyd, a Fluvanna County High School senior, fought her attacker after being struck by the blast.

Floyd tore her attacker’s shirt as she struggled with him, her uncle, Tom Haley, has said.

264 compound idaho  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:39:24pm

re: #241 b_sharp

I think there are many good choices; the Canadian shield being one of them. Just let the lawyers and greenies get involved what if? what if? what if? It wasn't technology or lack thereof that stopped the nuclear industry. It was the lawyers. You do not have to win the argument, you just need to drag it out long enough to make one side call uncle.

265 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:40:06pm

re: #261 Lidane

"The little faggot got his own jet airplane
The little faggot is a millionaire..."...

(that is who I heard they were talking about in that song)

266 Digital Display  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:40:25pm

re: #221 NJDhockeyfan

Evening lizards! What's happening?

Hi You..You won't believe this this.. I'm watching Basketball...Clev vs.Chi
I'm considering writing a series on Nuclear Energy this next week..
Designs..Safety..Procedures..Waste..Training..Fears...
I'm mulling publishing some long term plans and action items for America...
We mocked the private Industry when I worked for the Navy.. I'd like to say why..They would just smoke you...Controls? What a joke..
I think if we really want green energy we have to face this head on.
I think this next week I'm going to publish my ideas here about future nuclear energy...If Charles shows kindness to me..
//He always does..He suffers no fools

267 really grumpy big dog johnson  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:40:35pm

We could work on the space elevator, and then fly mankind somewhere better. Shouldn't take more than a couple thousand generations to get there, either.

268 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:40:41pm

re: #262 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

There isn't twice as much stupid on the right. They're just yelling louder right now.

the left blocking nuclear production is immoral imo...the TP folks pale in comparison to the damage inflicted on our economy and maybe even survival according to some

269 swamprat  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:41:03pm

re: #265 Fat Bastard Vegetarian


Boy George

270 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:41:07pm

re: #263 NJDhockeyfan

Glad they got caught & you & your family are safe!

271 compound idaho  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:41:38pm

re: #257 lostlakehiker

Probably right. Lets do a cost benefit analysis.

272 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:41:51pm

re: #265 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"The little faggot got his own jet airplane
The little faggot is a millionaire..."...

(that is who I heard they were talking about in that song)

shut up and load the truck.

273 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:42:18pm

re: #269 swamprat

Really? I thought it was Simon.

Huh.

274 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:42:25pm

re: #266 HoosierHoops

Hi You..You won't believe this this.. I'm watching Basketball...

I don't believe it.
You?
Watching basketball?
No way!

275 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:42:26pm

re: #238 albusteve

we need a tundra eating insect that shits oxygen

Brilliant!

276 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:43:10pm

re: #199 Killgore Trout

Looks to me like they're sharing a sentiment that would probably be considered sexual harassment back in the States.

277 Lidane  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:43:18pm

re: #265 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"The little faggot got his own jet airplane
The little faggot is a millionaire..."...

(that is who I heard they were talking about in that song)

Huh. I thought it was Motley Crue. I guess it could be either band, since they were both all over MTV at the time.

278 fizzlogic  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:43:20pm

This is why I think Cap & Trade is a waste of political capital and time. Actual efforts should be made to produce electricity from other sources--nuclear, wind, solar, tidal turbines, etc. Cap & Trade isn't going to fix anything. All it's going to do is make the oligarchy richer.

279 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:43:30pm

re: #261 Lidane

Nah. My vote's for something a bit more on topic:


[Video];)

I raise you...

280 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:43:57pm

re: #270 Floral Giraffe

Glad they got caught & you & your family are safe!

Thank you! We are much better than a few days ago.

281 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:44:02pm

re: #275 prairiefire

Brilliant!

make one...no kidding

282 What, me worry?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:44:15pm

re: #277 Lidane

Huh. I thought it was Motley Crue. I guess it could be either band, since they were both all over MTV at the time.

Nah it was Boy George. He was actually for real gay.

283 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:44:22pm

re: #266 HoosierHoops

My Cavs are going all the way, baby...

284 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:44:24pm

re: #265 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"The little faggot got his own jet airplane
The little faggot is a millionaire..."...

(that is who I heard they were talking about in that song)

Custom kitchen deliveries.

285 b_snark  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:44:32pm

re: #173 Alouette

Many years ago, I planted some trees in Israel in a Jewish National Fund forest. the JNF also planted a tree for each of my kids and grandkids who were born in Israel.

Four years ago, my son drove us from the Galilee to Jerusalem and showed us all the swathes of forest that were deliberately burned down by Palestinians.

Fuck!

286 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:44:44pm

re: #281 albusteve

Let the gene splicing begin.

287 really grumpy big dog johnson  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:46:05pm

re: #286 prairiefire

Let the gene splicing begin.

Speaking of the law of unintended consequences...

Gulp.

288 compound idaho  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:46:05pm

re: #278 trendsurfer

This is why I think Cap & Trade is a waste of political capital and time. Actual efforts should be made to produce electricity from other sources--nuclear, wind, solar, tidal turbines, etc. Cap & Trade isn't going to fix anything. All it's going to do is make the oligarchy richer.

Absolutely right, just don't use the word oligarchy. It makes you sound like the tea party crowd.

289 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:46:07pm

re: #286 prairiefire

Let the gene splicing begin.

then when they run out of gas we harvest them for food....groovy!

290 b_snark  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:46:36pm

re: #178 freetoken

Life in the trees had its moments... lounging in the sun all day, eating figs, flinging poo, and jumping on the first female that crossed in front of you...

No need to go that far back, that's what we did as teenagers.

291 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:46:42pm

re: #261 Lidane

Amazing...Duran Duran, 1983.

Would you believe I was already actively not listening to new popular music by then? I can't recall ever consciously hearing them, though I'm sure my ears were exposed at some point as I wandered aimlessly around Europe.

Believe it or not, I've never willingly tuned a teevee set to MTV, either.

Some areas of ignorance are deliberate on my part, and very precious to me.

292 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:46:53pm

re: #285 b_sharp

Fuck!

why should that surprise you... after the fires set in Europe & yes California ?

293 really grumpy big dog johnson  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:47:06pm

re: #289 albusteve

then when they run out of gas we harvest them for food...groovy!

Frito-Lay will call them zippydoos.

294 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:47:06pm

re: #253 jaunte

1983! Next up, Dexy's Midnight Runners...

1983: Big Country

295 compound idaho  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:47:52pm

re: #285 b_sharp

Fuck!

Years ago I watched my grandfather plant a tree at 80+ years. Now he was an optimist. Always looking to the future.

296 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:48:06pm

re: #288 compound idaho

Absolutely right, just don't use the word oligarchy. It makes you sound like the tea party crowd.

the TPs are not wrong on every count, and this should be a bipartisan issue....the federal govt has become a goldmine, one where the mother lode never runs out

297 b_snark  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:48:12pm

re: #182 brookly red

I will buy that... I am OK with that... now just get the freaking gubermint out of the way and let people find a way to make (and keep) a buck from doing so... all good.

How about we allow both the government and private enterprise to get on with it?

298 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:48:39pm

re: #288 compound idaho

Absolutely right, just don't use the word oligarchy. It makes you sound like the tea party crowd.

Only if he spells it "oligarhy".

299 fizzlogic  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:48:48pm

re: #288 compound idaho

I use the term loosely for the Wall Street investment banks. I don't know how the Tea Baggers use it.

300 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:49:22pm

re: #297 b_sharp

How about we allow both the government and private enterprise to get on with it?

cause one has an unfair advantage combined with a motive to fail?

301 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:49:32pm

re: #292 brookly red

why should that surprise you... after the fires set in Europe & yes California ?

Vandals. Destroying in a fit of rage without concern for the future.

302 Querent  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:50:46pm

re: #289 albusteve

then when they run out of gas we harvest them for food...groovy!

Lots of protein!

303 freetoken  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:51:07pm

Let me add, I remain vexed by many things in life:

Why do some people deny the earth is older than 6000 years?

Why do some people continue to cut up little girls' genitalia?

Why do.... [the list gets to be real long...]

Homo sapiens... have we really come that far since Australopithecus sediba?

Seriously - if one were to stand far enough away, could one tell our actions from that of, say monkeys?

304 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:51:10pm

re: #250 Charles

A week or three ago I had seen a documentary about some marine biologists who were sampling life from very deep ocean floor. The vertical cameras that guide the critter sampling basket/grabber thing were getting the lenses covered with gases coming from the ocean floor. It was methane, escaping at a great rate, from extremely deep cold waters. I posted this to Ludwig that night as evidence (to my amateur eyes) we may be past the critical methane melt tipping point.

Anyway, if Deja vu is feeling like you been there before Deja fear is thinking you have come to this scar conclusion before. if (big if) there is any climate conspiracy at government levels, it is to hide how screwed we are.

305 compound idaho  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:51:12pm

re: #296 albusteve

the TPs are not wrong on every count, and this should be a bipartisan issue...the federal govt has become a goldmine, one where the mother lode never runs out

I'm with you on that brother.
[Link: articles.latimes.com...]

306 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:51:17pm

If anyone's interested in what the wingnuts are spewing on Twitter, click this link:

[Link: twitter.com...]

If I actually gave a shit about what these people say, it might harsh my mellow.

307 Lidane  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:51:45pm

re: #279 Aceofwhat?

I raise you...

I see your bet and raise you:

:)

308 brookly red  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:51:45pm

re: #301 Dark_Falcon

Vandals. Destroying in a fit of rage without concern for the future.

I could take that to bannable places... but I gotta go get my dinner.

309 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:51:48pm

re: #301 Dark_Falcon

Vandals. Destroying in a fit of rage without concern for the future.

Let's give them a state of their very own and half of Jerusalem!

Palestinians are seething because the Israelis won't allow them to dump their shit wherever they want.

310 Cato the Elder  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:52:19pm

re: #303 freetoken

Let me add, I remain vexed by many things in life:

Why do some people deny the earth is older than 6000 years?

Why do some people continue to cut up little girls' genitalia?

Why do... [the list gets to be real long...]

Homo sapiens... have we really come that far since Australopithecus sediba?

Seriously - if one were to stand far enough away, could one tell our actions from that of, say monkeys?

Yes. Monkeys are far less efficient at doing evil shit.

311 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:52:22pm

re: #304 Rightwingconspirator

PIMF not scar, same conclusion.

312 b_snark  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:52:26pm

re: #197 Aceofwhat?

i cannot disagree with that. i'm working on it...oddly enough, by voting for a guy named Christ.

take that!

Ouch! Way to slap an atheist.

313 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:52:29pm

re: #295 compound idaho

Years ago I watched my grandfather plant a tree at 80+ years. Now he was an optimist. Always looking to the future.

My parents planted three trees on the property they owned in the suburbs. My mother especially liked the trees and took pride in the gene-spliced Elm she'd had planted. That tree won't reach its full size in my lifetime, but when it does it will be huge.

314 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:53:51pm

re: #306 Charles

If anyone's interested in what the wingnuts are spewing on Twitter, click this link:

[Link: twitter.com...]

If I actually gave a shit about what these people say, it might harsh my mellow.

LOL!
Do you block the nutters, or just leave them be?
I don't twit, or tweet, or whatever it's called.

315 Digital Display  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:54:11pm

re: #274 NJDhockeyfan

I don't believe it.
You?
Watching basketball?
No way!

73" High Def Samsung Bitch!
Ok I bought some fringing Dolby 7.1 Home Theater system...Don't hate me..There are so many speakers and wires I'm just freaked out.. I'm playing with the remote but really...It's not working out so well...
/ 3 more Satt speakers to hook up..This is a weekend project...Technology kicked the Hoopsters ass tonight..
/That's a song

316 What, me worry?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:54:25pm

re: #306 Charles

If anyone's interested in what the wingnuts are spewing on Twitter, click this link:

[Link: twitter.com...]

If I actually gave a shit about what these people say, it might harsh my mellow.

JWF is a might bit full of himself!

317 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:55:17pm

re: #315 HoosierHoops

LOL!
Do you hire out?
I could use some tech help!
//sorta...

318 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:55:32pm

Question for you real blog experts-How can I search for an entry that I made but including only those where I said "methane" ?

319 compound idaho  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:55:42pm

re: #313 Dark_Falcon

My parents planted three trees on the property they owned in the suburbs. My mother especially liked the trees and took pride in the gene-spliced Elm she'd had planted. That tree won't reach its full size in my lifetime, but when it does it will be huge.

My grandfather passed just a couple of years after planting the tree. Just on of the many bits of wisdom I gained from him. I miss him.

320 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:56:49pm

re: #303 freetoken

Let me add, I remain vexed by many things in life:

Why do some people deny the earth is older than 6000 years?

Why do some people continue to cut up little girls' genitalia?

Why do... [the list gets to be real long...]

Homo sapiens... have we really come that far since Australopithecus sediba?

Seriously - if one were to stand far enough away, could one tell our actions from that of, say monkeys?

[Video]

Not THE answer, but AN answer:

321 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:57:06pm

re: #318 Rightwingconspirator

Easiest way I know, is click on your nic, & "view posts" keep going back. Helps if you know what day it was, fewer posts to read!
KT or Charles probably have a trick or two...

322 Ojoe  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:57:26pm
323 Killgore Trout  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:58:13pm

Top of Drudge tonight....

GINGRICH: Obama 'most radical president ever'...
LIMBAUGH: Obama 'inflicting untold damage on this great country'...
PALIN: Obama's Nuke Stance Like Kid Who Says 'Punch Me in Face'...
LIZ CHENEY: Obama Putting America on 'Path to Decline'...
SAVAGE: 'Obama The Destroyer'...


Wingnuts are awful exited lately.

324 jaunte  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:58:16pm

re: #303 freetoken


Seriously - if one were to stand far enough away, could one tell our actions from that of, say monkeys?


Monkeys probably have fewer accidents driving while texting.

325 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:58:23pm

Hamas apologist Norman Finkelstein attacks Israel again

Norman Finkelstein, the professional Israel basher, appeared before the United Nations Correspondents Association in New York on April 7th to hawk his newest diatribe against Israel entitled ‘This Time We Went Too Far.’ Finkelstein claimed in his book that he was providing “an accurate record” of the “suffering” that the Gazan population “endured” as a result of the “merciless Israeli assault.” He urged the UN correspondents to publicize his message about what he called the “bloodletting in Gaza.”

Finkelstein was referring to Operation Cast Lead, which Israel launched in December 2008 to put a stop to the incessant rocket attacks launched from Gaza by Palestinian terrorists against civilians living in Southern Israel.

In his remarks to the UN correspondents, Finkelstein said that it was inaccurate to characterize what happened in Gaza as a war. He described it as a “massacre” deliberately designed by the Israeli government and military to terrorize the people of Gaza with “disproportionate force.” The real reason for Israel’s invasion, Finkelstein asserted, was to teach Arabs a lesson after Israel’s “defeat” in Lebanon in 2006.

What a douchebag.

326 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:58:50pm

re: #318 Rightwingconspirator

Question for you real blog experts-How can I search for an entry that I made but including only those where I said "methane" ?

Like this:

+"user:Rightwingconspirator" +methane

327 lostlakehiker  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:59:00pm

re: #304 Rightwingconspirator

A week or three ago I had seen a documentary about some marine biologists who were sampling life from very deep ocean floor. The vertical cameras that guide the critter sampling basket/grabber thing were getting the lenses covered with gases coming from the ocean floor. It was methane, escaping at a great rate, from extremely deep cold waters. I posted this to Ludwig that night as evidence (to my amateur eyes) we may be past the critical methane melt tipping point.

Anyway, if Deja vu is feeling like you been there before Deja fear is thinking you have come to this scar conclusion before. if (big if) there is any climate conspiracy at government levels, it is to hide how screwed we are.

Methane degrades. half life just 10-20 years in the atmosphere. The main problem remains co2, and the answer remains wind, solar, nuclear, and improved efficiency.

As to storing nuclear waste, the Yucca mt repository would have served. So that problem can be solved by ousting Harry Reid.

328 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:59:32pm

re: #303 freetoken

Let me add, I remain vexed by many things in life:

Why do some people deny the earth is older than 6000 years?

Why do some people continue to cut up little girls' genitalia?

Why do... [the list gets to be real long...]

Homo sapiens... have we really come that far since Australopithecus sediba?

Seriously - if one were to stand far enough away, could one tell our actions from that of, say monkeys?


[Video]

I feel you. But sometimes doctors fly thousands of miles just to heal someone who would otherwise stay sick. Sometimes people gather to build a house for someone who would otherwise stay homeless. Sometimes people do great things for people they've not met, for no reward other than to help.

Every day is a fight not to be just another monkey...I, for one, am not ready to give up-

329 b_snark  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 7:59:54pm

re: #219 Claire

2 thoughts- first- is enough methane coming out of the permafrost on dry land that it could be burned off? Probably not, but just curious.

Second, if I did the calculation correctly, which is really hard after 3/5 bottle of 3 buck chuck shiraz, the 7 teragrams of methane being emitted is equivalent to the air column above 1/5 of a square mile of the earth's surface. Intuitively, that seems very, very, very not significant, relatively speaking, of course. The update article is helpful with putting this into perspective- thanks for that.

How much C. botulinum would it take to kill a human, and what would the mass ratio be?

330 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:00:12pm

re: #312 b_sharp

Ouch! Way to slap an atheist.

This Rubio-Christ senatorial race was just begging for that joke...

331 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:00:24pm

re: #321 Floral Giraffe

Yeah, I was hoping to include the key word in the search. I went to look but well its a few weeks and quite a few posts. I'm at 5000+ since last October. I wanted to respond to that post of CJ's faster. I got seriously concerned about the methane melt that very day. looks to me like the methane is going up now. I'm no expert. But I am really concerned.

332 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:00:45pm

re: #325 NJDhockeyfan

Hamas apologist Norman Finkelstein attacks Israel again

What a douchebag.

I can't understand someone like that can make common cause with those who want to murder him. It's utterly foolish.

333 swamprat  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:00:45pm

re: #306 Charles

Jammiewearingfool sure is proud of himself.

I've seen sideshow barkers who were quieter.

334 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:01:01pm

re: #322 Ojoe

I'm going up there Saturday afternoon. Picnic!

335 Charles Johnson  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:01:36pm

re: #327 lostlakehiker

Methane degrades. half life just 10-20 years in the atmosphere.

But if a huge amount is released in a short time, those 10-20 years would turn into hell on Earth.

336 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:01:42pm

re: #326 Charles

Thanks!

337 What, me worry?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:01:51pm

re: #329 b_sharp

How much C. botulinum would it take to kill a human, and what would the mass ratio be?

Depends on the number of wrinkles, no?

338 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:02:05pm

re: #325 NJDhockeyfan

Hamas apologist Norman Finkelstein attacks Israel again

What a douchebag.

Any relation to Ray Finkle?

339 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:02:40pm

re: #327 lostlakehiker

Methane degrades. half life just 10-20 years in the atmosphere. The main problem remains co2, and the answer remains wind, solar, nuclear, and improved efficiency.

As to storing nuclear waste, the Yucca mt repository would have served. So that problem can be solved by ousting Harry Reid.

It's just a few months away...

Harry Reid Trails Two Potential GOP Challengers By Double Digits (POLL)

340 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:02:44pm

re: #332 Dark_Falcon

I can't understand someone like that can make common cause with those who want to murder him. It's utterly foolish.

He's like the Neturei Karta, but without their frisbee hats.

341 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:03:32pm

Somebody say methane?

G'night knuckleheads.

342 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:03:45pm

re: #337 marjoriemoon

Depends on the number of wrinkles, no?

Very good!

343 bratwurst  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:04:17pm

re: #224 Aceofwhat?

Gaia is farting in church. We are not amused.

Amazing it took this long for a "fart" joke. Yuk yuk.

344 b_snark  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:04:49pm

re: #255 Aceofwhat?

I'll crow louder when there isn't twice as much stupid on the right, how about that;)

LOL

345 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:04:56pm

re: #339 NJDhockeyfan

It's just a few months away...

Harry Reid Trails Two Potential GOP Challengers By Double Digits (POLL)

tis good news...Harry is unfavorable, let alone dangerous to your health

346 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:05:06pm

re: #343 bratwurst

Amazing it took this long for a "fart" joke. Yuk yuk.

as a succinct summary, though, was it that far off/

347 b_snark  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:05:45pm

re: #258 swamprat

Tu quoque!

More like Euqouq ut.

348 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:05:52pm

re: #345 albusteve

tis good news...Harry is unfavorable, let alone dangerous to your health

"The war is lost."
Harry Reid

349 Querent  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:06:00pm

re: #343 bratwurst

oh no, we have not yet begun with the fart jokes. (for which i am grateful)

and by the way RGBDJ it is good to see you and many other long-time lizards still around!

350 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:06:14pm

re: #328 Aceofwhat?

I feel you. But sometimes doctors fly thousands of miles just to heal someone who would otherwise stay sick. Sometimes people gather to build a house for someone who would otherwise stay homeless. Sometimes people do great things for people they've not met, for no reward other than to help.

Every day is a fight not to be just another monkey...I, for one, am not ready to give up-

Nicely said!

351 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:06:22pm

re: #326 Charles
Thanks again that does the trick. Silly me I had put + methane inside the quotes.
This is the post-Ludwig had some good input there.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

This was the post. Now I'll dig up the show that was that ran on 3/14.

352 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:07:25pm

re: #348 NJDhockeyfan

It'll be so sad. He's gonna be retired a gazillionaire... Watch... there will be exclusions from the new tax code for retired senators/congresscritters.

353 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:07:40pm

re: #348 NJDhockeyfan

"The war is lost."
Harry Reid

yep...I'll never forget that one...I believe BO insisted the surge was a failure as recent as his summer run up to the election

354 compound idaho  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:07:50pm

re: #348 NJDhockeyfan

"The war is lost."
Harry Reid

How did this guy win office in the first place, much less majority leader?
I know a lot of good people in NV, any of which is better than this guy.

355 Bagua  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:08:05pm

re: #345 albusteve

tis good news...Harry is unfavorable, let alone dangerous to your health

Bye bye Harry, mind the door on the way out.

356 What, me worry?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:08:27pm

re: #342 really grumpy big dog Johnson

Very good!

hehe Actually before Botox was approved for cosmetic surgery it was used for mostly spinal surgery, to relax the muscles on the spine. It was also used to control spasticity (still is). There's a number of other amazing uses for botunlium toxin that aren't for cosmetics, used as orphan drugs.

357 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:08:27pm

re: #349 Querent

oh no, we have not yet begun with the fart jokes. (for which i am grateful)

and by the way RGBDJ it is good to see you and many other long-time lizards still around!

it is...post!

358 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:08:33pm

re: #350 Floral Giraffe

Nicely said!

Saying it is easy...living it is hard...i fail early and often.

359 laZardo  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:08:51pm

Good morning honcos. I see there's still no reason to have any hope in humanity yet.

360 Querent  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:09:01pm

re: #355 Bagua

Bye bye Harry, mind the door on the way out.

We of the Lizard Nation stand ready to help you out, Harry. Which way did you come in?

361 Digital Display  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:09:03pm

re: #317 Floral Giraffe

LOL!
Do you hire out?
I could use some tech help!
//sorta...

LOL
Hi Floral..I'm a Global System Admin.. You ever need tech help..I'm your guy..It's what I do...
Hope today finds you well...
( I'm fricking Serious friend)

362 laZardo  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:09:33pm

re: #343 bratwurst

Amazing it took this long for a "fart" joke. Yuk yuk.

He who started it, farted it.

363 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:09:42pm

re: #348 NJDhockeyfan

"The war is lost."
Harry Reid

He was right, only the war that was lost was his reelection campaign. :D

364 Querent  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:09:50pm

re: #359 laZardo
upding for honcos! i keep forgetting to use that!

365 albusteve  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:11:03pm

re: #364 Querent

upding for honcos! i keep forgetting to use that!

we are Los Verde Honcos, amigo

366 swamprat  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:11:41pm

we need luddie now
/turns on the LUDALERT


Look! A windmill shadow on that beacon in the clouds!

Not to worry, Billy. Someone is signaling CLIMATEMAN!

367 Bagua  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:12:01pm
368 compound idaho  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:12:11pm

re: #358 Aceofwhat?

Saying it is easy...living it is hard...i fail early and often.

Started attending a new church recently. Silent confession lasted about 15 seconds. I could only make thourgh Monday. The lovely wife made comment to the pastor. He now gives us a minute or so. I see him looking to me to see if I am done.

369 b_snark  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:12:50pm

re: #266 HoosierHoops

Hi You..You won't believe this this.. I'm watching Basketball...Clev vs.Chi
I'm considering writing a series on Nuclear Energy this next week..
Designs..Safety..Procedures..Waste..Training..Fear s...
I'm mulling publishing some long term plans and action items for America...
We mocked the private Industry when I worked for the Navy.. I'd like to say why..They would just smoke you...Controls? What a joke..
I think if we really want green energy we have to face this head on.
I think this next week I'm going to publish my ideas here about future nuclear energy...If Charles shows kindness to me..
//He always does..He suffers no fools

Write the stuff. If Charles won't let you publish it here, I'm sure we could find you a venue.

370 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:12:58pm

re: #329 b_sharp

I'll take a little in my forehead, right between my eyes. Thanks.

371 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:13:08pm

re: #361 HoosierHoops

Do you make house calls?
//
Hope your Spring is Springing!
And Winston's happy!

372 Claire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:14:25pm

re: #329 b_sharp

How much C. botulinum would it take to kill a human, and what would the mass ratio be?

Not an accurate analogy- Don't know what else to say-

373 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:14:54pm

re: #370 prairiefire

I'll take a little in my forehead, right between my eyes. Thanks.

hehe that just made me wonder if Bachmann is doing it wrong...

...Michelle - it's not supposed to be subdural, honey...

374 Querent  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:18:44pm

re: #365 albusteve

we are Los Verde Honcos Los Honcos Verdes, amigo

Fixed that for ya.

(dang, como se dice "scaly" en español?)

375 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:19:27pm

re: #373 Aceofwhat?

She looked good at her rally. Poofy hair, fit, no wrinkles. I bet she thought "the big dawg is coming, I gotta up my game." Then Sarah shows up all glam spy, saying "yeah, I am all that."

376 Digital Display  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:20:01pm

re: #369 b_sharp

Write the stuff. If Charles won't let you publish it here, I'm sure we could find you a venue.

What? Why wouldn't Charles let me publish my ideas about Nuclear Energy here? He has never censored anyone unless they break the 5 simple rules posted.. Charles has never called me out and is really cool..
Now if I wanted to break the rules.. I will not blame him for banning my ass...
Charles would always let me post my Nuclear Energy Ideas...It never even crossed my mind that he wouldn't.
Jeez

377 b_snark  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:20:03pm

re: #292 brookly red

why should that surprise you... after the fires set in Europe & yes California ?

Not surprised, frustrated.

378 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:22:06pm

re: #375 prairiefire

lolz for 'glam spy'. well done there-

379 ghazidor  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:22:40pm

re: #86 prairiefire

I don't like nuclear power. However, as Windy has described it, I think I am using emotional reasoning against it. Can some smart folks please come up with a reasonable way to use/store the nuclear waste? That would be great.

The 11-13 billion dollars (accurate numbers are hard to come by) we have spent on Yucca Mountain complex was a pretty good start. It is a geologically stable area, provisions have been made to remove the moisture from the waste and then cast it into glass blocks that will last hundreds of thousands of years (in theory at least). These glass blocks will then be stored thousands of feet underground but seperated into hundreds and hundreds of individual chambers to prevent excessive heating effects from waste decay.

The best scientific minds in the world on nuclear waste were the ones who came up with this site and disposal method in the first place. We really can't do any better than this within the bounds of current technology. If rockets were foolproof it would be cheaper and easier to just shoot the waste towards the sun, but they aren't foolproof and no one wants a rocket full of waste to crash in their backyard or be self-destructed over some major city or even the open ocean...sigh. :(

380 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:22:44pm

re: #359 laZardo

Good morning honcos. I see there's still no reason to have any hope in humanity yet.

I've almost completed my escape pod. As soon as the final piece arrives from Tralfamadore, I'll be on my way to Planet X, where I will spend the rest of my artificially prolonged multi-century lifespan serving as a sex slave to the Leather Goddesses of Phobos. As horrible as that sounds, please know that I make this sacrifice for you.

381 Unakite  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:22:53pm

re: #259 really grumpy big dog johnson

Capturing methane is about as practical as catching gnats with butterfly nets. It's a very tough nut to crack. Better off the find a natural reduction mechanism that actually works real-time.

Not sure how that would work, however...

Uhm, OK. If I read this correctly, You're saying that capturing methane using an engineered solution is less practical than walking down the primrose path and stumbling upon a natural mechanism to reduce methane offgassing??

What would this natural but real-time mechanism be>>

382 Aceofwhat?  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:23:37pm

sweet dreams, all-

383 b_snark  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:24:18pm

re: #330 Aceofwhat?

This Rubio-Christ senatorial race was just begging for that joke...

Glad to oblige.

384 prairiefire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:24:54pm

Night, lizards.

385 Daniel Ballard  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:24:56pm

re: #335 Charles

I can not find a link to the show for certain, but on 3/14 Nat'l Geo ran a show about life on the sea floor. Anyone who wants to see the methane can. Several scenes.

386 b_snark  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:26:21pm

re: #337 marjoriemoon

Depends on the number of wrinkles, no?

I specifically avoided using the common name to avoid this kind of comment. :-P

387 Unakite  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:30:05pm

re: #304 Rightwingconspirator

A week or three ago I had seen a documentary about some marine biologists who were sampling life from very deep ocean floor. The vertical cameras that guide the critter sampling basket/grabber thing were getting the lenses covered with gases coming from the ocean floor. It was methane, escaping at a great rate, from extremely deep cold waters. I posted this to Ludwig that night as evidence (to my amateur eyes) we may be past the critical methane melt tipping point.

Anyway, if Deja vu is feeling like you been there before Deja fear is thinking you have come to this scar conclusion before. if (big if) there is any climate conspiracy at government levels, it is to hide how screwed we are.

The deep ocean floor is one of the least explored areas on the earth. Did it ever occur to you that this might have been going on for a long time, and the only reason that anyone observed it was because they finally got cameras down that deep?? Outgassing from the ocean deep ocean floor is a naturally occurring event and is not evidence of global warming.

388 Clemente  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:30:33pm

Clearly a huge threat, but can anyone clarify is the actual case? The author's second comparative statistic describes a very disturbing scenario:

"as much as is emitted from the rest of the ocean."

But the statistic given first in the article portrays a vastly worse scenario:

"comparable to the amount coming out of the entire world’s oceans"

Since that's probably not a light at the end of the tunnel, I've got to wonder, "How fast is that train coming at me, anyway?"

389 lostlakehiker  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:32:04pm

re: #335 Charles

But if a huge amount is released in a short time, those 10-20 years would turn into hell on Earth.

Steve Barnes had a great sci-fi novel on just that, titled the mother of all storms. But some good people have run the numbers, and this shallow water source that's responsible for the uptick isn't big enough to set off apocalyptic warming.

If we were imminently threatened, we could, no kidding, use h-bombs to burn some stuff and send the fine soot into the stratosphere. Cities would serve, ( no, I am NOT suggesting doing that!!!
) but a better target surely could be found. Forests that have died and dried to tinder?

It really doesn't look like it will come to that.

390 Unakite  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:33:49pm

re: #324 jaunte

Monkeys probably have fewer accidents driving while texting.

They probably have fewer incidents of texting while driving, too!!

391 laZardo  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:35:57pm

re: #380 negativ

I've almost completed my escape pod. As soon as the final piece arrives from Tralfamadore, I'll be on my way to Planet X, where I will spend the rest of my artificially prolonged multi-century lifespan serving as a sex slave to the Leather Goddesses of Phobos. As horrible as that sounds, please know that I make this sacrifice for you.

You leaving 2012? I'm going to Nibiru. Any race that turns their whole planet into an intergalactic spaceball trailer party is fine by my book.

392 b_snark  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:37:30pm

re: #372 Claire

Not an accurate analogy- Don't know what else to say-

Perhaps I should have chosen a different toxin. The point I was trying to make is that sometimes an amazingly small trigger can dramatically affect the processes in a complex system, especially one with multiple feedbacks. Complaining about how small the amount of methane is completely misses how methane, or GHGs in general, affects the system.

393 b_snark  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:39:41pm

re: #376 HoosierHoops

What? Why wouldn't Charles let me publish my ideas about Nuclear Energy here? He has never censored anyone unless they break the 5 simple rules posted.. Charles has never called me out and is really cool..
Now if I wanted to break the rules.. I will not blame him for banning my ass...
Charles would always let me post my Nuclear Energy Ideas...It never even crossed my mind that he wouldn't.
Jeez

Just giving you a little encouragement.

394 Clemente  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:40:39pm

re: #221 NJDhockeyfan

Evening lizards! What's happening?

Charles has formed a Young Earth Creationist speed-metal band. They debut at the San Francisco tea party rally May 1st.

/I may have some of that wrong...

395 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:51:35pm

re: #387 Unakite

There doesn't need to be any more evidence of global warming. Global warming is what is happening. This is not the argument anymore.

396 Querent  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:52:50pm

re: #380 negativ

upding for Leather Goddesses of Phobos!

397 Claire  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 8:53:46pm

re: #392 b_sharp

Complaining about how small the amount of methane is completely misses how methane, or GHGs in general, affects the system.

No, it doesn't! You have to quantify how much is too much or it's meaningless.

398 Unakite  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 9:17:18pm

re: #395 Obdicut

There doesn't need to be any more evidence of global warming. Global warming is what is happening. This is not the argument anymore.

I'm sorry but uhm, OK. I was just pointing out that methane hydrates are ubiquitous and have been understood for decades, if not longer. You're telling me now that people that have never heard of a methane clathrate are seeing methane being released from the ocean floor and are now convinced that this is more evidence of global warming. Yet when a perfectly good scientific explanation for both the occurrence and release of methane from the ocean floor is provided, you say that "There doesn't need to be any more evidence of global warming." Guess what...you can bury your head in the sand, but this is not evidence of global warming.

It is, however, an explanation for all the ships that have been lost in the Bermuda Triangle.

399 Obdicut  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 9:36:04pm

re: #398 Unakite

You have missed the point by a mile.

400 b_snark  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 9:53:49pm

re: #397 Claire

No, it doesn't! You have to quantify how much is too much or it's meaningless.

Nonsense.

Adding any GHG increases the effect. What has to be calculated in how much additional retained energy can the the system handle before subsystems start breaking down. In the case of Earth, many of the subsystems are biological.

401 freetoken  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 9:55:00pm

re: #398 Unakite

The story broke a few weeks back. I posted several links and explanations.

The research in question looked specifically at changes due to warming of the shallow waters off of Siberia. The changes were noted in the bed of the sea floors with the (visible) melting in the shallows.

402 Unakite  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:00:56pm

re: #399 Obdicut

You have missed the point by a mile.

Heh, wouldn't be the first time (especially late at night).

403 Unakite  Thu, Apr 8, 2010 10:16:08pm

re: #401 freetoken

The story broke a few weeks back. I posted several links and explanations.

The research in question looked specifically at changes due to warming of the shallow waters off of Siberia. The changes were noted in the bed of the sea floors with the (visible) melting in the shallows.

This is what I like about LGF, but many of us (I include myself) can't always get on on a regular basis and I may have missed your links. I'll try to go back and catch up, but you also have to understand that a lot of this has already been understood by geologists.

Think about the "black smokers" on the bottom of the seafloor in the Pacific. They were new to humans when humans finally developed the technology to observe them, but that did not prove that the "black smokers" were new features. Similarly, new observations of methane being released does not prove that methane was not being released naturally in the past.

404 jrbaugh  Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:18:04am

I hope people get serious enough about global warming and start building nuclear plants before it is too late.


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