The Associated Press has obtained a 1985 letter signed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict), in which he resisted defrocking a pedophile priest because of the effect it would have on “the good of the universal church.”
1 |
Obdicut Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:40:27am |
Reposting from last thread:
I would think that the 'good of the universal church' was best served by defrocking priests who molested children, personally.
| 2 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:41:42am |
Another day another reason I'm glad I grew up in a Presbyterian Church, it made my transition to being Agnostic so easy.
(The worst scarring I ever got from my church was being there on the day that my church refused to confirm a lesbian preacher, boy howdy did I see some ugly stuff on that day...)
| 3 |
Randall Gross Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:42:36am |
It was pointed out somewhere as a defense that catholic priests are no more likely to commit pedophilia than the average male however that is only weak defense. The scurrilious offense here is that the Catholic Church somehow thinks it's above the law and that it's ok to shield and protect pedophiles.
This is the Catholic version of Theocracy.
| 4 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:43:14am |
A 1985 letter signed by Ratzinger cited concerns about the effect that removing the priest would have on "the good of the universal church."
The "universal church" includes those children who were molested. That doesn't seem to ever have crossed the minds of those making these decisions.
This is way past crisis point for the Pope and the church, IMO.
Will be interesting to see what plays out.
Papal resignation is recognized as a possibility in canon law, but it's been hundreds of years since anybody actually resigned.
| 5 |
Dark_Falcon Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:43:22am |
re: #1 Obdicut
Reposting from last thread:
I would think that the 'good of the universal church' was best served by defrocking priests who molested children, personally.
Agreed. Pope Benedict's moral authority is gone behind this. He decided to cover up a vile crime and that means he needs to resign as pope, having acquired the same same stain as Richard Nixon. This letter is the smoking gun.
| 6 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:43:40am |
re: #4 reine.de.tout
The "universal church" includes those children who were molested. That doesn't seem to ever have crossed the minds of those making these decisions.
This is way past crisis point for the Pope and the church, IMO.
Will be interesting to see what plays out.Papal resignation is recognized as a possibility in canon law, but it's been hundreds of years since anybody actually resigned.
Well then in statistical terms they're due!
| 7 |
reine.de.tout Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:45:16am |
re: #3 Thanos
It was pointed out somewhere as a defense that catholic priests are no more likely to commit pedophilia than the average male however that is only weak defense. The scurrilious offense here is that the Catholic Church somehow thinks it's above the law and that it's ok to shield and protect pedophiles.
This is the Catholic version of Theocracy.
Very weak "defense", as if there could be any defense of this.
Priests have a particular position of authority that gives them access to children who view them as good, that the general population doesn't have, making the potential for evil that much greater, IMO.
| 8 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:47:34am |
Palin is blithering right now on Fakes News.
She just said "nucular."
| 9 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:48:08am |
| 12 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:48:58am |
Palin: "My favorite -- Don't Retreat, Reload!"
Crowd goes nuts.
Palin then says, "Oh that's not a call for violence! Oh no no no!"
Crowd is silent.
| 13 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:49:16am |
re: #9 Dreggas
Bachmann thinks we should nuke anyone who tries a cyber attack on us.
Penetrate my firewall will you?
| 14 |
William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:49:41am |
One needs to remember that the Roman Catholic church is the last remnant of the Roman Empire. And yes, it is a theocracy in the sense that it sees itself as separate and above any other secular authority. The whole celibacy thing has really only been seriously enforced since about 1200 or so because when a priest has a spouse or children they won't be totally dependent upon their bosses good will. Or worse, from Rome's perspective, will do what is best for people rather than the church.
As I said in the previous thread, there is no one capable of reforming this church that has come out yet. I can only pray that someone like Giovanni Francesco di Bernardone comes along again to save them by reminding them of what they are really here on Earth for.
William
| 15 |
Wozza Matter? Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:49:43am |
re: #9 Dreggas
just send the nuke back through the series of tubes which the attack originated - job done!
| 16 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:49:45am |
re: #9 Dreggas
Bachmann thinks we should nuke anyone who tries a cyber attack on us.
Does she have the coordinates for Bill Gates' house?
| 17 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:49:51am |
re: #13 jamesfirecat
Penetration is the last thing on my mind when talking about Bachmann
| 18 |
Aceofwhat? Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:50:44am |
re: #16 Decatur Deb
Does she have the coordinates for Bill Gates' house?
Seeeriously. Who knew that "internet explorer" actually meant "anyone can explore you via the internet"?
| 19 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:51:17am |
re: #18 Aceofwhat?
Maybe they misspelled it and it was supposed to be Internet Exploder!
| 20 |
Interesting Times Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:51:22am |
re: #8 Charles
Palin is blithering right now on Fakes News.
She just said "nucular."
Wasn't it spelled "new-clear" on her RNC speech teleprompter for this very reason? At least Obama doesn't require phonetic spelling on his :P
| 21 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:51:58am |
"What's wrong with being the Party of No?"
"We're the party of Hell No!"
| 22 |
Spider Mensch Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:54:00am |
re: #21 Charles
"What's wrong with being the Party of No?"
"We're the party of Hell No!"
I won't watch..but by your play by play..it sounds like she's talking to the crowd at the jerry springer show...lol...maybe she'll pull her top up and get into a fight with on of the ladies in the crowd...lol
| 23 |
Wozza Matter? Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:54:02am |
re: #21 Charles
While still being the party of Lincoln and Reagan.................
| 24 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:54:11am |
re: #21 Charles
"What's wrong with being the Party of No?"
"We're the party of Hell No!"
At time's rapidly moving towards the party of whatever you care to call this...
| 25 |
Stanghazi Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:55:26am |
Economic Punishment Agency (EPA) according to Ms. Palin
| 26 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:55:53am |
| 29 |
Wozza Matter? Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:56:27am |
re: #21 Charles
"What's wrong with being the Party of No?"
"We're the party of Hell No!"
no latino voters, no gay voters, no black voters.............
no northern states.................
no future...............
| 30 |
Feline Fearless Leader Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:56:32am |
re: #25 Stanley Sea
Economic Punishment Agency (EPA) according to Ms. Palin
I guess the Exxon Valdez went down the memory hole with her long ago.
| 31 |
Wozza Matter? Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:56:52am |
re: #26 Decatur Deb
no -seriously - Palin said it in the speech.
| 32 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:57:10am |
Good lord. What a freaking moron she is. I'm astounded anew.
| 33 |
Lidane Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:57:22am |
re: #26 Decatur Deb
Lincoln is under review.
Which is mind-boggling. The anti-Lincoln jihad among libertarians and the Luap Nor faction will never make any sense to me. Ever.
| 34 |
Stanghazi Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:58:01am |
re: #30 oaktree
I guess the Exxon Valdez went down the memory hole with her long ago.
She never stood up for the Alaskans in that.
And, the classic was when Katie Couric asked her about any recent Supreme Ct. cases and she failed to mention the one where the damages against Exxon were reduced. It happened just months before the interview.
| 35 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:58:08am |
Drill, drill, drill! Yeah, drill! Who cares about the environment?
| 36 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:58:38am |
re: #33 Lidane
Which is mind-boggling. The anti-Lincoln jihad among libertarians and the Luap Nor faction will never make any sense to me. Ever.
Lincoln proved that the federal law is the strongest law in the land and people who go against it will be punished. Why would it be hard to understand someone who believes that the federal government should stay out their business would have a problem with that?
| 37 |
CarleeCork Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:58:40am |
re: #32 Charles
Good lord. What a freaking moron she is. I'm astounded anew.
How can you watch her? You like your nails ripped out too?
| 38 |
Obdicut Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:58:45am |
re: #25 Stanley Sea
Yeah. The same EPA that is so toothless that Massey Energy was able to rack up thousands of violations against them and continue operating.
The EPA needs to mete out more punishment, not less. Companies routinely violate EPA rules because they know enforcement is so weak.
| 39 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:58:55am |
| 40 |
iceweasel Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:59:01am |
No more 'nuculur'. Watching Palin makes me want to enucleate myself.
| 41 |
shiplord kirel Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:59:28am |
re: #27 Charles
"Nucular" again.
Caribou Barbie is a trained media droid (tv weather-babe) and she is normally fairly distinct in her pronunciation. She has to be using such pronunciations as "nucular" and "eye-ran" to appeal to the base. Tells you something about her base.
| 42 |
Wozza Matter? Fri, Apr 9, 2010 10:59:35am |
re: #35 Charles
Drill, drill, drill! Yeah, drill! Who cares about the environment?
you didn't get the memo?................
| 43 |
lawhawk Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:00:02am |
re: #38 Obdicut
Actually it was the MSHA that fined Massey, not the EPA - and didn't enforce or promote the collections, and that's even after the Bush Administration tightened the enforcement following the Sago mine disaster.
| 44 |
Stanghazi Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:00:08am |
re: #38 Obdicut
Yeah. The same EPA that is so toothless that Massey Energy was able to rack up thousands of violations against them and continue operating.
The EPA needs to mete out more punishment, not less. Companies routinely violate EPA rules because they know enforcement is so weak.
I tear runs down my cheek with this shit.
| 45 |
CarleeCork Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:00:21am |
re: #41 shiplord kirel
Caribou Barbie is a trained media droid (tv weather-babe) and she is normally fairly distinct in her pronunciation. She has to be using such pronunciations as "nucular" and "eye-ran" to appeal to the base. Tells you something about her base.
It tells me even more about her.
| 46 |
Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:00:26am |
re: #38 Obdicut
In Massey's case it was the MSHA.
| 47 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:00:37am |
re: #40 iceweasel
No more 'nuculur'. Watching Palin makes me want to enucleate myself.
To be fair, I've voted for a nuclear engineer who mispronounced it that way.
| 48 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:00:40am |
re: #41 shiplord kirel
Caribou Barbie is a trained media droid (tv weather-babe) and she is normally fairly distinct in her pronunciation. She has to be using such pronunciations as "nucular" and "eye-ran" to appeal to the base. Tells you something about her base.
I agree. They're talking down to the base. She knows how to pronounce it correctly. Ignorance is a badge of honor with these people.
| 49 |
Wozza Matter? Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:00:51am |
re: #39 Decatur Deb
Palin is pro Lincoln and Rick Perry is an (un)veiled secessionist............
should make for an interesting primary
/
| 50 |
HappyWarrior Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:01:05am |
The problem with the modern GOP is that they seem unwilling to move in to the future and broaden their base. They're not going to get far with young voters if they think wrongly that we're just going to become social conservatives once we hit our 30's.
| 52 |
stevemcg Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:02:18am |
re: #48 Charles
I agree. They're talking down to the base. She knows how to pronounce it correctly. Ignorance is a badge of honor with these people.
Reminds me of a Daily Show segment where Stewart bust Gretchen (whatever her last name is) over her feigned ignorance. "I googled ..."
| 53 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:02:22am |
re: #50 HappyWarrior
The problem with the modern GOP is that they seem unwilling to move in to the future and broaden their base. They're not going to get far with young voters if they think wrongly that we're just going to become social conservatives once we hit our 30's.
Or 40s, 50s, 60s.
| 54 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:02:28am |
re: #50 HappyWarrior
The problem with the modern GOP is that they seem unwilling to move in to the future and broaden their base. They're not going to get far with young voters if they think wrongly that we're just going to become social conservatives once we hit our 30's.
They're banking on the truth of what Winston Churchill once said
“If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.”
| 55 |
Obdicut Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:02:31am |
re: #43 lawhawk
Actually it was the MSHA that fined Massey, not the EPA - and didn't enforce or promote the collections, and that's even after the Bush Administration tightened the enforcement following the Sago mine disaster.
What are you talking about? I said Massey had thousands of EPA violations. They did.
[Link: climateprogress.org...]
[Link: 2politicaljunkies.blogspot.com...]
Yeah, they had hundreds of MSHA violations, too. They're a real piece of work, with an insane CEO. Good thing that Bush appointed someone from Massey to review mine safety cases-- you want someone who comes from a totally corrupt company for things like that.
| 56 |
iceweasel Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:03:18am |
re: #41 shiplord kirel
Caribou Barbie is a trained media droid (tv weather-babe) and she is normally fairly distinct in her pronunciation. She has to be using such pronunciations as "nucular" and "eye-ran" to appeal to the base. Tells you something about her base.
Reel Amurkins don't let others tell em how to say words. You know, like Pock-ee-stahn. Sounds furrin.
Seriously, I see wingnuts mocking Obama on a daily basis for pronouncing words correctly.
| 57 |
Obdicut Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:03:39am |
re: #48 Charles
I'd like to pimp my friend Geoff Nunberg's book on that subject again:
Going Nucular: Language, Politics, and Culture in Controversial Times
| 58 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:03:45am |
re: #54 jamesfirecat
They're banking on the truth of what Winston Churchill once said
“If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.”
Which, if true, would make the whole political enterprise pretty stupid.
| 59 |
Wozza Matter? Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:04:02am |
re: #54 jamesfirecat
for Churchill conservative did not equal rabid theocrat............ ;-)
| 60 |
stevemcg Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:04:06am |
re: #50 HappyWarrior
The problem with the modern GOP is that they seem unwilling to move in to the future and broaden their base. They're not going to get far with young voters if they think wrongly that we're just going to become social conservatives once we hit our 30's.
Don't oversestimate the young generation. They didn't call it the Baby Bust for nothing. Besides, there are still millions of middle aged people about to hit their Medicare years and they're ripe for scaring.
| 61 |
Joo-LiZ Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:04:25am |
Peter Wehner warning the Republicans.
My former White House colleague Michael Gerson has a very good column in the Washington Post today on civility and public discourse. It makes a very important (and too often overlooked) point:The most basic test of democracy is not what people do when they win; it is what people do when they lose. Citizens bring their deepest passions to a public debate — convictions they regard as morally self-evident. Yet a war goes on. Abortion remains legal. A feared health-reform law passes. Democracy means the possibility of failure. While no democratic judgment is final — and citizens should continue to work to advance their ideals — respecting the temporary outcome of a democratic process is the definition of political maturity.
The opposite — questioning the legitimacy of a democratic outcome; abusing, demeaning and attempting to silence one’s opponents — is a sign of democratic decline. From the late Roman republic to Weimar Germany, these attitudes have been the prelude to thuggery. Thugs can come with clubs, with bullhorns, with Internet access.
Spirited, passionate debate is fine, and even good at times, for the country. The opposition party should offer sharp, even piercing, criticisms when appropriate. After all, politics ain’t beanbags, as Mr. Dooley said. And it’s not the place for those with delicate sensibilities. But nor should it be an arena for invective or hate. And conservatives should not repeat the tactics used by some Democrats and liberals during the Bush years. (Gerson documents several of them, including the temper tantrum thrown by the New Republic writer Jonathan Chait.)
These are not people or temperaments we want to emulate. It’s not appropriate – and it is ultimately politically counterproductive. Ronald Reagan, himself, a large-spirited and civilized man, looked quite good compared to the vitriolic attacks directed against him at the time.
Thankfully, anger and hate don’t usually sell in American politics. Even Richard Nixon, in the aftermath of Watergate, understood that. “Never be petty; always remember, others may hate you, but those who hate you don’t win unless you hate them, and then you destroy yourself,” Nixon said during his haunting remarks to the White House staff after his resignation in 1974. That was a lesson Nixon learned only after he was destroyed. It is a cautionary tale.
| 63 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:06:05am |
| 64 |
MrSilverDragon Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:06:46am |
I can't even muster the will to make a joke about this, as pedophilia is the lowest of the low. For the good of the universal church, It's resignation time, Pope Benedict.
| 66 |
Joo-LiZ Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:07:40am |
re: #62 wozzablog
got Joe Wilson's email address?
Wozza, did you see my link to Barry Rubin earlier, on the Gingrich thread? I wanted your thoughts on that.
| 68 |
Olsonist Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:08:08am |
re: #50 HappyWarrior
It's a two prong attack. First, purify the base. Second, drive down the voter turnout. They are extremely successful at both. Voter turnout in the Land of the Free is 56% in a Presidential year, and 35% in an off year and less for a primary. It's the primaries where the base shines.
| 69 |
iceweasel Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:08:26am |
Bart Stupak is retiring; blames everyone but himself. FDL has his number:
Stupak To Retire Because Of Death Threats; Entire Rest Of Democratic Caucus Holds Firm
If you’re a politician not inclined to deliver under “intense political pressure,” you have no business being a politician. And if death threats were a factor in resigning, there pretty much wouldn’t be a member of the Democratic caucus left. Stupak sought the spotlight. He wanted to lead the pro-life Caucus and hijack the health care debate. He refused to quit even when he essentially won by getting the Nelson compromise, which functionally did about everything he wanted. He made the debate a living hell and went out of his way to punish half the US population. And in the end, everybody hated him, left and right. Well played.
What a shame that Stupak got so many death threats from those nice 'pro-life' people. Who could have foreseen such a thing?
Reminder: Stupak opposed the Freedom to Access Clinic Entrances (FACE) Act, which protects women from intimidation at abortion clinics.
| 70 |
MrSilverDragon Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:08:39am |
re: #65 stevemcg
And who's going to replace him?
Preferrably someone who isn't going to cover for pedophiliacs.
| 71 |
abbyadams Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:08:43am |
re: #4 reine.de.tout
I don't think anything will happen. The Pope, by default, is king and emperor of the Vatican.
I hope it does, though. I can't go back to the church again until it does.
| 72 |
jamesfirecat Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:08:51am |
re: #68 Olsonist
It's a two prong attack. First, purify the base. Second, drive down the voter turnout. They are extremely successful at both. Voter turnout in the Land of the Free is 56% in a Presidential year, and 35% in an off year and less for a primary. It's the primaries where the base shines.
Voting... it's for pussies!
| 73 |
Obdicut Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:09:22am |
Even more on Ratzinger and coverups:
[Link: www.chron.com...]
| 74 |
Randall Gross Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:09:38am |
re: #64 MrSilverDragon
I can't even muster the will to make a joke about this, as pedophilia is the lowest of the low. For the good of the universal church, It's resignation time, Pope Benedict.
Yes and no. There are things worse than pedophilia.
| 75 |
shiplord kirel Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:09:42am |
re: #48 Charles
Two years ago, McCain drew big applause when he denounced the Adler Planetarium's federally funded upgrade as "three million dollars for an overhead projector."
The interesting thing about this is that astronomy is a famously necessary skill for naval officers. It is, and has always been, a required course at Annapolis.
As an Annapolis graduate, McCain had to know better; but he went for the cheap shot. I was very disappointed with him, and my disillusionment with him probably started with that episode.
| 76 |
Dancing along the light of day Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:10:11am |
re: #40 iceweasel
No more 'nuculur'. Watching Palin makes me want to enucleate myself.
Please don't do that!
| 77 |
HappyWarrior Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:10:59am |
re: #60 stevemcg
Don't oversestimate the young generation. They didn't call it the Baby Bust for nothing. Besides, there are still millions of middle aged people about to hit their Medicare years and they're ripe for scaring.
I don't but I do think GOP is barking up the wrong tree if they want to continue the emphasis on social conservatism and this coming from a liberal who is opposed to abortion and gun control. I am however a strong supporter of gay marriage.
| 78 |
Obdicut Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:11:15am |
re: #75 shiplord kirel
That and the shots taken at community organizers solidified my opposition to the campaign the GOP was running.
| 79 |
webevintage Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:13:16am |
Dear God.
"The good of The Church" is best served by not allowing these "occasion of sin" to continue!
Each time a Priest is allowed to continue to serve instead of turned over to local authorities (and then once out of prison placed in a far flung "no talky all work and prayer" monastery to do penance for the rest of their lives) the Church itself is complacent in the sin they commit and whatever sins may then be committed by the victims as they mature and react, in various ways, to what was done to them.
I don't know what the Vatican is thinking.
And I am amazed to see some of my favorite Catholic bloggers jumping on the "oh they are going after the Pope because of The Chruch's stance against abortion and Gay marriage".
Seriously?
I had this conversation the other day and when my friend brought up that argument I just said "you have got to be fucking kidding me?".
What is needed is Repentance, contrition and penance.
A year of no pomp and ceremony.
A year of "we fucked up, our bad, please forgive us" said over and over and over again.
No vestments, not red hats, just sack cloth and ashes.
I don't want the Pope to fight back, I want him to take on the guilt of the church and push though this to the other side of this scandal.
| 80 |
HappyWarrior Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:13:28am |
re: #78 Obdicut
That and the shots taken at community organizers solidified my opposition to the campaign the GOP was running.
Wasn't that pathetic? It was funny because Palin's fans understandably praised her for being part of the PTA but mocked Obama for being a community organizer.
| 81 |
stevemcg Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:13:35am |
re: #77 HappyWarrior
At some point I remember a GOP'er who said they'd rather control school boards than Legisltures. Check what's happening in TX. I expect that to spread. WHere does that take your younger generation?
| 82 |
Shiplord Kirel Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:15:11am |
re: #78 Obdicut
That and the shots taken at community organizers solidified my opposition to the campaign the GOP was running.
Odd that they would oppose private sector participation in grassroots issues but nowhere else. What is a "community organizer" but a private sector version of politics?
| 83 |
Joo-LiZ Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:15:37am |
re: #63 Charles
He's way too late.
At least he is saying it, and it is still early relative to the election season.
IIRC, he's also spoken up against the antics of Glenn Beck.
As a respected conservative voice, it is good to see him denouncing the crazies.
| 84 |
Joo-LiZ Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:16:11am |
re: #83 Joo-LiZ
At least he is saying it, and it is still early relative to the election season.
IIRC, he's also spoken up against the antics of Glenn Beck.
As a respected conservative voice, it is good to see him denouncing the crazies.
It's also better late than never... wanted to add that in there.
| 85 |
iceweasel Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:17:23am |
re: #81 stevemcg
At some point I remember a GOP'er who said they'd rather control school boards than Legisltures. Check what's happening in TX. I expect that to spread. WHere does that take your younger generation?
That's been the creationist strategy since the 90's: grassroots control of school boards.
They learned it from the anti-abortion movement, which likewise knows that Roe won't be overturned, so they focus on local action making abortion difficult or impossible to obtain at the local levels.
| 86 |
Decatur Deb Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:17:31am |
re: #81 stevemcg
At some point I remember a GOP'er who said they'd rather control school boards than Legisltures. Check what's happening in TX. I expect that to spread. WHere does that take your younger generation?
That's a long-term strategy. 20 yrs ago a local push focused on "Phonics" as the wedge issue. A partisan who mistook me for a sympathizer expressed it directly.
| 87 |
HappyWarrior Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:17:48am |
re: #81 stevemcg
At some point I remember a GOP'er who said they'd rather control school boards than Legisltures. Check what's happening in TX. I expect that to spread. WHere does that take your younger generation?
Hmmmm you know that's a good point. I just think that the GOP underestimates that most young people are pretty socially liberal even Republican ones. For instance, most of the Republicans my age I know our differences are not on social issues but on economics.
| 88 |
Olsonist Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:22:12am |
re: #87 HappyWarrior
Yes, but young people don't vote because, as a wise person once said, voting is for pussies.
| 89 |
HappyWarrior Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:28:18am |
re: #88 Olsonist
Yes, but young people don't vote because, as a wise person once said, voting is for pussies.
Ha, true. I am just saying as these voters get older they're going to hold on to beliefs that could be defined as socially liberal. They're going to be attracted to the Republicans who have made big issues out of making gay marriage illegal. The other thing is with the country becoming more racially diverse and the way that many in the Republican Party have acted towards immigrants will also backfire. I'll give Bush credit on this. He wasn't a know nothinger on immigration and seemed to understand that people who immigrate here are looking for a better life for them and their families.
| 90 |
Bob Levin Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:40:39am |
It seems like there are two discussions going on, but I think they are related. There appears to be a rule with institutions, that as they reach a certain size and stature, then preservation of the institution becomes more important than the individuals involved in the institution. The institution stands for nothing else other than its own existence, individuals be damned. There are people who feed the institution, like then Cardinal Ratzinger and Sarah Palin, and there are those who must leave the institution in order to stand for the original principles, and we don't hear much of those folks. This law of institution is well documented by Foucault and Illich. It applies in so many places.
| 91 |
drcordell Fri, Apr 9, 2010 11:58:46am |
Unbelievable. Well, actually it's completely believable, which is the whole problem. I was raised a Catholic, and confirmed in the church, but now I am a devout Atheist. I'd be lying if I said the pederasty scandals didn't contribute to my distance from organized religion.
| 93 |
Liet_Kynes Fri, Apr 9, 2010 1:15:02pm |
I think it is rather important to point out that the Catholic Church does not view being a priest as a job. Being a priest is ontologically part of who an individual is. Laicizing an individual is not something that is done either lightly or quickly and also contrary to what is being reported laicization does not make an individual stop being a priest. Rather it removes certain rights and responsibilities of the priesthood and reduces the individual to a lay state.
THIS IS REALLY KEY HERE:
1.) The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith did not deal with sexual abuse cases until 2001. It dealt with cases involving sacramental violations. If the Kiesle case was being referred to the CDF then it had something to do with a sacramental violation.
2.) The local Bishop has the full authority to remove any priest from active parish ministry. If an abusive priest is ministering at a parish and has contact with Children, THAT IS NOT THE VATICAN’S FAULT. The buck stops AT THE LOCAL BISHOP if a known problem priest is being assigned where he shouldn’t be assigned.
Some timeline things that are not getting reported.
*1961 Document issued by the Sacred Congregation for Religious called Religiosorum Institutio which says “Advancement to religious vows and ordination should be barred to those who are afflicted with evil tendencies to homosexuality or pederasty, since for them the common life and the priestly ministry would constitute serious dangers”. Document largely not followed.
*1962 Crimen sollicitationis written which protects laity when they accuse a priest of soliciting them to commit a sexual sin while going to the confessional. Encouraged laity to come forward while protecting their identity from becoming known by the accused or the community. Poorly enforced by local bishops.
*The 1917 Code of Canon Law was in force until 1983. This governed abuse cases and laicization until then.
*During the early and mid pontificat of John Paul II, the laicization process became very restricted and the process was similar to annulment – ie in order for it to be granted a flaw in the ordination would have to be shown. This typically doesn’t allow for “automatic laicization” based on a crime or to use laicization as a punishment for a crime. During this period, the Vatican is not “sitting on” laicization cases trying to stall them.
*The 1983 Code of Canon Law came into effect and there was a transition phase surrounding these years.
*In 2001 Pope John Paul II transferred all abuse cases to the CDF. This was done through a Muto Proprio called Sacramentum sanctitatis tutela which also laid down new rules.
*Until 2001, the Roman Rota had the sole authority to hear abuse cases (the CDF handed sacramental abuse cases) then the authority transferred to the CDF.
* 2001 starts the period where laicization actively starts to be used as a remedy for abuse cases.
* 2001 De delictis gravioribus written by Ratzinger as head of the CDF. Tightens up the process and insists on protecting privacy for the abused and the accused (who are presumed innocent until proven guilty).
*Cases involving "delicta graviora"; i.e., the crimes which the Catholic Church considers as being the most serious of all: crimes against the Eucharist and against the sanctity of the Sacrament of Penance, and crimes against the sixth Commandment ("thou shall not commit impure acts") committed by a cleric against a person under the age of eighteen (this last part was added in 2001), are in the CDF are handled by the “promoter of justice” – the prosecutor of the tribunal of the CDF. (Then and currently Msgr. Charles J. Scicluna). The Prefect of the CDF (which was Ratzinger 1982-2005) does not directly handle these cases.
| 94 |
Liet_Kynes Fri, Apr 9, 2010 1:18:46pm |
continued...
*Back log of abuse cases arrive at the CDF in 2003-2004.
*The CDF under Ratzinger and Scicluna becomes aggressive in responding to abuse cases, often forgoing canonical trials and circumventing the authority of local bishops to mete out discipline. This aggressive stance runs afoul of other prelates and congregations at the Vatican.
*2002 Pope John Paul II grants the CDF the authority to revoke the statute of limitations regarding abuse on a case by case basis.
*2005 Elected Pope Benedict XVI undertakes procedures to remove Gino Burresi, founder of the Servents of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and Marcial Maciel Degollado, founder of the Legionaries of Christ, from ministry both of whom had been accused of abuse but who had been protected by the organs of the Vatican. Both were barred from public ministry and ousted from the Vatican.
*2005 Instruction from the Congregation for Catholic Education issued. It further tightens down on how individuals can be admitted to seminary and ordained. It is designed to further screen possible abusers from the priesthood.
Make of this all what one wills, but it is good to be able to see a fuller picture of how and why things are happened. There are plenty of villians in this who need to be castigated. Ratzinger isn't one of them though and if people keep focusing on him, they will ignore the real problems and the real villians in the Church on this issue who need to be brought out into the daylight instead of being in the shadows.
| 95 |
Bob Levin Fri, Apr 9, 2010 1:36:48pm |
re: #93 Liet_Kynes
*1961 Document issued by the Sacred Congregation for Religious called Religiosorum Institutio which says “Advancement to religious vows and ordination should be barred to those who are afflicted with evil tendencies to homosexuality or pederasty, since for them the common life and the priestly ministry would constitute serious dangers”. Document largely not followed.
*1962 Crimen sollicitationis written which protects laity when they accuse a priest of soliciting them to commit a sexual sin while going to the confessional. Encouraged laity to come forward while protecting their identity from becoming known by the accused or the community. Poorly enforced by local bishops.
This is a perfect example of institutional physics at work. Because you're right, it's not like the Church is actively saying that abuse is okay. In fact, no individual in the Church would even think so--including the abusers who feel gripped by forces beyond their control. But each of these dictates does not exist in isolation--there is another dictum that impacts the same plane of thought, much like downloading a computer program that gives the computer contradictory directions. The result is that the screen freezes, the thought process freezes, and the inaction ends up as a key element in perpetuating the problem--with each individual actor feeling that the responsibility lies elsewhere. And this dynamic is not endemic to the Church. Unfortunatley, it's everywhere you look.
| 96 |
Liet_Kynes Fri, Apr 9, 2010 2:14:45pm |
re: #95 Bob Levin
Yes true, there are institutional physics at work. One of the biggest ones, not mentioned in what I wrote above, is that coming out of Vatican II, the authority of the Vatican had been greatly diminished. An ecclesial model of the Church with a strong centralized Vatican with a powerful Curia (Congregations) had been rejected for a more delocalized episcopal conference model. Local bishops would have much more authority and leeway and as a result local bishops, who were not keen on this or that aspect of Catholic theology, often ignored wholesale directives coming out of the Vatican. The lurch left in the Church following the 1960 dramatically changed the dynamic of the institutional Church.
I agree with you that there was an atmosphere of contradiction – but I also find it to be more systemic then simply ignoring what the Vatican was trying to do in these matters. I would though stress that the contradiction is not from a theological or moral point of view for the documents of the Church are rather clear on what should have been done. The computer program is fine – it is a human operator issue.
As they say, sin makes one stupid.
| 97 |
Obdicut Fri, Apr 9, 2010 2:23:00pm |
re: #93 Liet_Kynes
You're simply an apologist. You are taking the attitude that priests are more important than the children, just as the church is.
Ratzinger's name is signed to a document protecting a pedophile who went on to commit more acts of sexual predation. That does indeed mean that Ratzinger is one of the people who are villains in this.
Have the courage to join the head of a thread next time with this argument.
| 98 |
Bob Levin Fri, Apr 9, 2010 2:58:15pm |
re: #96 Liet_Kynes
I was saying that the problem is systemic. I also said that the result of this systemic-think is a freeze in decision making and taking action to stop the problem--with everyone under the impression that the responsibility is with someone else.
By the way--Judgment at Nuremburg is on TCM tomorrow night. If you miss it, the upshot is not a country taken over by blind hatred but by hyper-rationalism. And through that rationalism, they recreate the context for the crimes right there in courtroom.
| 99 |
Bob Levin Fri, Apr 9, 2010 3:44:13pm |
| 100 |
Liet_Kynes Sat, Apr 10, 2010 9:22:00am |
re: #97 Obdicut
You're simply an apologist. You are taking the attitude that priests are more important than the children, just as the church is.
Ratzinger's name is signed to a document protecting a pedophile who went on to commit more acts of sexual predation. That does indeed mean that Ratzinger is one of the people who are villains in this.
Have the courage to join the head of a thread next time with this argument.
1. I posted 2.5 hours into this thread. What I wrote took a few hours to research and write, so cut me some slack for not posting "FIRST!!!".
2. The document that is in question is not a document that protects a pedophile priest. It is a document that turns down a request (not a canonical charge) for laicization that was requested by the priest in question. The AP article clearly states that it was a request for a dispensation to leave the priesthood not a canonical charge for a dismissal from the priesthood. As I mentioned it was standard procedure under John Paul II to reject requests for dismissal. YOU NEED TO KEEP IN MIND THAT THE CHURCH DOES NOT DISPENSE PRIESTS ON ITS OWN WHIM, IT DOES SO ACCORDING TO CANON LAW AND ITS OWN DIRECTIVES. Lacking a canonical charge regarding abuse of the sacraments, it was not possible for the CDF to remove said priest at the time of the letter. However do note that the AP reports that Ratzinger calls the charges "grave significance" and added that such actions required very careful review and more time and requires that the bishop provide the "as much paternal care as possible". Does not anyone care that Ratzinger here is saying 1.) The bishop must minister to the priest and bring him back to Christ 2.) the abuse is a great problem 3.) the bishop should review what is going on and bring charges if need be.
3. Again let me point out to you that an abusive priest need not be kept in active ministry. The local bishops are the one who assigned the abusive priests, shuttled them around and pproved of him being in active ministry.
4. How dare you say that I have said that abusive priests are more important than children when I have said nothing of the sort. I have been very clear in laying blame at the feet of prelates just not the ones you want to scape goat. You are outrageous. Good day to you sir.
re: #98 Bob Levin
I was saying that the problem is systemic.
By the way--Judgment at Nuremburg is on TCM tomorrow night. If you miss it, the upshot is not a country taken over by blind hatred but by hyper-rationalism. And through that rationalism, they recreate the context for the crimes right there in courtroom.
I agree the problem is systemic. Prior to 2001 several Congregations handled abuse cases which made the process go very slowly. I will also add that there were prelates (bishops cardinals etc.) that were actively protecting other abusive prelates. Former Archbp. Weakland of Milwaukee is a good example of that. Also dig into the case of Marcial Maciel Degollado, founder of the Legionaries of Christ, to see examples of who is protecting who, how Degollado was protected and why it took Ratzinger becoming Pope before he was removed.
Unfortunately I don't get cable -- though I think I have seen that movie. I agree, it wasn't hatred but hyper-rationalism (with lots of mythology thrown in).
| 101 |
Dad O' Blondes Sat, Apr 10, 2010 11:57:51am |
Reading the editorial page in Investor's Business Daily's Monday 4/12 issue would add something to this discussion about the Catholic Church and its approach to handling child-molesting priests:
"...Thirty years ago, annual abuse incidents approached 800 in number; for the year 2009 the claims against the 40,000 U.S. priests and tens of thousands of others come to a grand total of 6 ..."
It would likely be enlightening, too, for some here to review the information provided to the US Bishops by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice.
[Link: www.usccb.org...]
This shows that US Catholic Church leadership, and likely the Vatican as well, was very much aware that there was a problem -- all the way back in 1980. And since then, reports of abuse incidents by priests have dropped to the point of single digits.
Still too many of course. But it seems apparent, that decades ago, and certainly without today's press-induced hysteria, the Church made it a priority to find ways to stop the sexual abuse of children by priests.
.
| 102 |
ClaudeMonet Sat, Apr 10, 2010 12:17:05pm |
Just for the record--You don't have to be a right-wing moron to mispronounce "nuclear". Ex-President Jimmy Carter, back before he became a senile anti-Semite, was roundly and justifiably ragged because he pronounced it "noo-ke-er". While Carter was many things (incompetent, dithering, friend-alienating, enemy-embracing), he was neither right-wing nor (at the time) a moron.
| 103 |
ClaudeMonet Sat, Apr 10, 2010 12:21:57pm |
re: #93 Liet_Kynes
While I disagree with your conclusions, I thank you for taking the time to research the Vatican pronouncements on the issue and to detail them for us.
The facts remain--No one within the Church hierarchy wanted to take responsibility for the necessary act of cleansing the Church of its miscreants. It was action by inaction. Saying "it's not my department" doesn't resolve an issue, it only pushes it elsewhere and encourages (or at least doesn't punish) those guilty of this monstrous crime.
| 104 |
Liet_Kynes Sat, Apr 10, 2010 5:04:23pm |
re: #103 ClaudeMonet
While I disagree with your conclusions, I thank you for taking the time to research the Vatican pronouncements on the issue and to detail them for us.
.....Saying "it's not my department" doesn't resolve an issue, it only pushes it elsewhere and encourages (or at least doesn't punish) those guilty of this monstrous crime.
You are welcome. Just trying to help provide good information for people to draw conclusions from.
Do try to understand though that calling the fire departement is not the proper government agency to call if you want a legal case filed against a perp. Same thing with the CDF. Prior to 2001 the CDF handled personal requests for a dispensation so that they could be reduced to a lay state (these were typically denied follow regulations from John Paul II) or it handled canonical trials for priests accused of grave sacramental violations. The Congregation for the Clergy in conjunction with the Roman Rota handled canonical trials for priests accused of sexual abuse prior to 2001.
The CFC and Roman Rota are where people need to be looking for the "do nothings".
But really lets look at the local bishops. Lets see... can anyone tell me if they think this is a good idea? The Diocese of Oakland, CA attempts to have the CDF approve a dispensation from the priesthood for Fr. Kiesle - dispensation requested by Fr. Kiesle and not a canonical charge, while at the exact same time permitting him to work as a volunteer with young people??
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