Jon Stewart: Union Victory Appreciation Month
Humor • Views: 3,749
195 comments
1 |
jamesfirecat Sun, Apr 11, 2010 11:47:26am |
Thanks Charles, I loved this sketch!
“If you’re looking for anything negative about the north… don’t, we took it off!”
| 3 |
Jeff In Ohio Sun, Apr 11, 2010 11:52:50am |
Funny shit! I want, no I need that lawn jockey.
| 4 |
jamesfirecat Sun, Apr 11, 2010 11:54:58am |
re: #3 Jeff In Ohio
Funny shit! I want, no I need that lawn jockey.
Yes so you have something to put outside when your neighbor puts up a (warning old timey racist image contained in link) Image: jocko.jpg
| 5 |
brookly red Sun, Apr 11, 2010 11:55:07am |
/ I still get a kick out of hearing, Yankees win! theeeeeeeeeee Yankees win!
| 6 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Apr 11, 2010 11:55:50am |
A horrible time in our history. I don’t understand people wanting to re-live it over and over…
| 8 |
Four More Tears Sun, Apr 11, 2010 11:56:54am |
Why am I reminded of that South Park episode where Cartman changed the reenactment so the South won?
| 9 |
jamesfirecat Sun, Apr 11, 2010 11:58:00am |
re: #5 brookly red
/ I still get a kick out of hearing, Yankees win! theee Yankees win!
Yeah you guys haven’t had such a hot track record since 2000. By the way how do you like my set of Power Armor, with built in Boston Red Sox World Series Trophy accommodating shoulder pauldrons, with one on either shoulder?
(Says the pinkest of Red Soxs fans in the sense that I only tune in to watch the playoffs unlike my mom and brother who are proper members of the nation.)
| 11 |
swamprat Sun, Apr 11, 2010 11:58:19am |
This is great
Jon Stewart actually outed himself as a teabagger!
Also, that “slave owner” looked suspiciously like The Gordons’ Fisherman.™
| 12 |
brookly red Sun, Apr 11, 2010 11:58:46am |
re: #6 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
A horrible time in our history. I don’t understand people wanting to re-live it over and over…
well on the downside divide and conquer maybe… on the upside better to learn than to forget. IMO.
| 13 |
Obdicut Sun, Apr 11, 2010 11:59:04am |
re: #9 jamesfirecat
I’m the kind of Red Sox fan who actually watches them less often now that they’ve won a few.
| 14 |
brookly red Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:02:21pm |
| 15 |
Vicious Babushka Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:02:35pm |
re: #8 JasonA
Why am I reminded of that South Park episode where Cartman changed the reenactment so the South won?
| 16 |
jamesfirecat Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:02:44pm |
re: #13 Obdicut
I’m the kind of Red Sox fan who actually watches them less often now that they’ve won a few.
Yeah I mean like all the fun has gone out of it, where’s the Shakespearian drama, the almost Greek Tragedy of a team that has some close but never quite managed to become victorious for 86 years now that they seem to have gone back to picking up a trophy once every three years? (Seriously, the Red Sox’s won the world series 5 times in 15 years at one point)
| 17 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:03:32pm |
The Don and Mike Show (DC area) (Radio) used to do a skit (forget the name so, I’ll make it up) GERN BLANSDEN, CIVIL WAR SURGEON… no matter what the injury was… the man could have a head cold and you would hear sawing.
Nothing but the sounds of a saw sawing and people screaming…
Gosh, writing that, it doesn’t sound funny at all!
| 18 |
palomino Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:03:52pm |
re: #6 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
A horrible time in our history. I don’t understand people wanting to re-live it over and over…
A relatively small, but loud, number of southern dead-enders have to relive it because they can’t get over it.
The winning side doesn’t usually hold a grudge 150 years later, as they’ve moved on. Which is why there’s not much outcry for an actual Union Kicked the Confederacy’s Ass Month.
| 19 |
swamprat Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:05:05pm |
If anything makes it worthwhile to have Obama as president, it is the fact that Jon Stewart has a new joke besides “Bush is a moron”.
I really wondered how many years he was going to do that one. He did it right down to the very last.
Disclaimer; I’m not saying that he lacked in material, but he certainly played that note often.
| 20 |
brookly red Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:05:21pm |
re: #11 swamprat
This is great
Jon Stewart actually outed himself as a teabagger!
Also, that “slave owner” looked suspiciously like The Gordons’ Fisherman.™
on the scary side he looked like Terre’Blanche…
| 21 |
cronus Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:05:37pm |
I’ve never understood the psychology of confederate “remembrance”. My high school football team doesn’t get together to commemorate our one-sided losses.
| 22 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:06:13pm |
[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]
| 23 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:06:13pm |
re: #18 palomino
I’d like to see a Civil War Remembrance week. Something like that. For both sides.
Instead of reenactments, we can stand at the Mason Dixon Line across from each other and toast each other and do shots.
| 24 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:06:32pm |
re: #23 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Then the big group hug.
| 25 |
palomino Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:07:06pm |
re: #21 cronus
I’ve never understood the psychology of confederate “remembrance”. My high school football team doesn’t get together to commemorate our one-sided losses.
Because the people on your HS football team eventually grew up.
| 26 |
Charles Johnson Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:07:29pm |
At True/Slant my post about Ron Paul at SRLC has drawn Justin Raimondo out of his cave, and another wacky Ron Paulian who posted a long comment three times.
[Link: trueslant.com…]
| 27 |
Killgore Trout Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:07:42pm |
re: #17 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
The Don and Mike Show (DC area) (Radio) used to do a skit (forget the name so, I’ll make it up) GERN BLANSDEN, CIVIL WAR SURGEON… no matter what the injury was… the man could have a head cold and you would hear sawing.
Nothing but the sounds of a saw sawing and people screaming…
Gosh, writing that, it doesn’t sound funny at all!
It was a funny bit. I loved Honk for Cash and the annual Hamburger James/Elvis Christmas show. Don Geronimo (Mike Source) is still knocking around the business a little bit. I have no idea what happened to Mike.
| 28 |
brookly red Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:07:49pm |
re: #23 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I’d like to see a Civil War Remembrance week. Something like that. For both sides.
Instead of reenactments, we can stand at the Mason Dixon Line across from each other and toast each other and do shots.
Instead of reenactments, we can stand at the Mason Dixon Line across from each other and toast each other and do shots.
have drinks..
fify
| 29 |
jamesfirecat Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:08:41pm |
re: #21 cronus
I’ve never understood the psychology of confederate “remembrance”. My high school football team doesn’t get together to commemorate our one-sided losses.
Lets be fare, to call the civil war a “one sided loss” dramatically underplays the suffering that Union soldiers had to go through. They outnumbered the South almost all the time, but the war went on for as long as it did because many of the people who were leading the Northern Army were quite bad at the job.
The South tried to invade the north twice remember, and the first time they only failed because by a freak bit of luck we found out EXACTLY what their plans were.
The Civil War was not a one sided struggle…
| 30 |
_RememberTonyC Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:10:14pm |
I was born in Virginia but moved to the Boston area as a very young child. I believe Boston is one of the most racist places I have ever seen. There are neighborhoods in Boston such as Charlestown or Southie where Blacks can be in deep shit if they wander there by accident. Now it’s nothing like what Blacks faced in the south during the era of slavery, but if people think “liberal” Boston is a wonderful town with no anti-Black racism, I have news for you. And I might add that in my trips to southern cities during my adult life, I found that relations between Blacks and Whites were more cordial than what I observed in places like Boston and Chicago.
| 31 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:10:47pm |
re: #18 palomino
A relatively small, but loud, number of southern dead-enders have to relive it because they can’t get over it.
The winning side doesn’t usually hold a grudge 150 years later, as they’ve moved on. Which is why there’s not much outcry for an actual Union Kicked the Confederacy’s Ass Month.
The grudge is partly fueled, IMO, by the fact that there are quite a few people who have some ancestral ties to those who fought that war, and they are looking for some way to honor those folks.
Check out all the “Daughters of the Confederacy” and “Sons of the Confederacy” that exist. Members have to show some connection to someone in the war, if I recall correctly.
There are other ways to do it.
| 32 |
swamprat Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:11:18pm |
re: #23 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
The surveyors were Mason and Dixon. Mason, he liked to drink from a jar, while Dixon folded these little cups from sheets of paper because he thought it was more sanitary, as it was impractical to wash a cup every time he wanted a drink.
/old fakelore
| 33 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:11:32pm |
re: #26 Charles
At True/Slant my post about Ron Paul at SRLC has drawn Justin Raimondo out of his cave, and another wacky Ron Paulian who posted a long comment three times.
Slow learner, eh?
| 34 |
sagehen Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:11:49pm |
re: #23 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I’d like to see a Civil War Remembrance week. Something like that. For both sides.
Instead of reenactments, we can stand at the Mason Dixon Line across from each other and toast each other and do shots.
Or spit and throw water balloons.
| 35 |
jamesfirecat Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:12:27pm |
re: #34 sagehen
Or spit and throw water balloons.
Or have a battle of the bands, one side plays Dixie the other plays Battle Hym of the Republic, who can make their song rock harder?
| 36 |
Obdicut Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:12:40pm |
re: #30 _RememberTonyC
Boston is the only place where I’ve heard the phrase “don’t Jew me” et al. used with regularity.
It’s ‘liberal’ in some aspects, but very ‘conservative’ in others; it shows why such labels aren’t really that useful.
| 37 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:13:18pm |
re: #28 brookly red
I was going for the double meaning!
| 38 |
Four More Tears Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:13:23pm |
re: #31 reine.de.tout
The grudge is partly fueled, IMO, by the fact that there are quite a few people who have some ancestral ties to those who fought that war, and they are looking for some way to honor those folks.
Check out all the “Daughters of the Confederacy” and “Sons of the Confederacy” that exist. Members have to show some connection to someone in the war, if I recall correctly.
There are other ways to do it.
I still don’t entirely get it, though. If I had ancestors who were loyalists during the Revolution I wouldn’t be looking to honor them.
| 39 |
darthstar Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:13:23pm |
re: #19 swamprat
If anything makes it worthwhile to have Obama as president, it is the fact that Jon Stewart has a new joke besides “Bush is a moron”.
I really wondered how many years he was going to do that one. He did it right down to the very last.Disclaimer; I’m not saying that he lacked in material, but he certainly played that note often.
Well, Jay Leno still makes Clinton-Lewinsky jokes…which, I suppose, is why “The Tonight Show with Jay Leno” was included as one of the programs on the Sarah Palin Network skit on SNL last night.
| 40 |
Wozza Matter? Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:13:32pm |
re: #35 jamesfirecat
the devil went down to georgia - that would be Sherman ;-)
| 41 |
bratwurst Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:14:17pm |
re: #36 Obdicut
Boston is the only place where I’ve heard the phrase “don’t Jew me” et al. used with regularity.
Try living in New Orleans for a while.
| 43 |
Aceofwhat? Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:14:56pm |
re: #30 _RememberTonyC
I was born in Virginia but moved to the Boston area as a very young child. I believe Boston is one of the most racist places I have ever seen. There are neighborhoods in Boston such as Charlestown or Southie where Blacks can be in deep shit if they wander there by accident. Now it’s nothing like what Blacks faced in the south during the era of slavery, but if people think “liberal” Boston is a wonderful town with no anti-Black racism, I have news for you. And I might add that in my trips to southern cities during my adult life, I found that relations between Blacks and Whites were more cordial than what I observed in places like Boston and Chicago.
I was shocked at how heterogeneous Chicago is when i moved there. Cleveland is a lot more integrated (i.e. different ethnicities living in the same neighborhood).
| 44 |
Shiplord Kirel Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:15:22pm |
My post last night on Civil War alternate history
*Spoilers*
To elaborate a little, all three of the writers mentioned (Churchill, Turtledove, and Moore) postulated a very bleak future resulting from a Confederate victory. This is fiction of course but with the benefit of hindsight, their logic is compelling. All three make the point that Confederate victory would eventually have changed not just the United States but the whole world.
To take just a minor point of divergence (cited by Turtledove and Moore) Maximilian would have remained emperor of Mexico had the Confederacy won. All three alternate histories take a Confederate alliance with Britain and France for granted. Turtledove, logically enough, extends this to a United States alliance with Imperial Germany in the twentieth Century, with all kinds of ramifications, including the rise of Prussian-style militarism in the United States itself.
In Turtledove’s massive series, by far the longest and most elaborate ever published in this genre, the struggle ends with the Confederacy comprehensively defeated in 1944, its nazi-style dictator and his henchmen put to death. This leaves a frightening world, though. Communism failed and nazism never appeared, but the United States is stuck with governing massive and massively hostile populations in the ex-Confederacy (and Canada). There is a a whole set of militaristic countries having acquired nuclear weapons and 19th century style imperialist patterns still dominating international affairs.
| 45 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:15:34pm |
re: #30 _RememberTonyC
I hadn’t heard the “N” word for years until I went to a tavern in Bordentown New Jersey.
Yeah. I was shocked.
| 46 |
Obdicut Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:15:49pm |
re: #41 bratwurst
That’s sad to hear. I would have thought New Orleans was more cosmopolitan than that, but I think most people think Boston is more cosmopolitan than that, too.
| 47 |
jamesfirecat Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:15:55pm |
re: #40 wozzablog
the devil went down to georgia - that would be Sherman ;-)
But the devil doesn’t win in the song….
More revisionist history?
| 49 |
William of Orange Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:16:08pm |
Great! Mulholland Drive is on 13th Steet tonight in the Netherlands. Everyone who loves David Lynch say WOOT!
Yeah!
And to everyone who loves David here’s a great mix of Llorando from that same movie. From the album Mashed in Plastic.
| 50 |
brookly red Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:16:47pm |
re: #36 Obdicut
Boston is the only place where I’ve heard the phrase “don’t Jew me” et al. used with regularity.
It’s ‘liberal’ in some aspects, but very ‘conservative’ in others; it shows why such labels aren’t really that useful.
I hear it it NYC, but usually from those who have recently immigrated… I don’t know if it is true feeling or an attempt to fit in… strange world.
| 51 |
_RememberTonyC Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:16:59pm |
re: #36 Obdicut
Boston is the only place where I’ve heard the phrase “don’t Jew me” et al. used with regularity.
It’s ‘liberal’ in some aspects, but very ‘conservative’ in others; it shows why such labels aren’t really that useful.
Obdicut …. I agree. In my hometown of Brockton, which is about 30 mins from Boston, I experienced plenty of antisemitism growing up. I had many fistfights that I didn’t ask for. I suppose it made me tougher in some ways, but I’m glad my own kids have not faced similar stuff.
| 53 |
jamesfirecat Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:17:22pm |
re: #44 Shiplord Kirel
My post last night on Civil War alternate history
*Spoilers*
To elaborate a little, all three of the writers mentioned (Churchill, Turtledove, and Moore) postulated a very bleak future resulting from a Confederate victory. This is fiction of course but with the benefit of hindsight, their logic is compelling. All three make the point that Confederate victory would eventually have changed not just the United States but the whole world.
To take just a minor point of divergence (cited by Turtledove and Moore) Maximilian would have remained emperor of Mexico had the Confederacy won. All three alternate histories take a Confederate alliance with Britain and France for granted. Turtledove, logically enough, extends this to a United States alliance with Imperial Germany in the twentieth Century, with all kinds of ramifications, including the rise of Prussian-style militarism in the United States itself.In Turtledove’s massive series, by far the longest and most elaborate ever published in this genre, the struggle ends with the Confederacy comprehensively defeated in 1944, its nazi-style dictator and his henchmen put to death. This leaves a frightening world, though. Communism failed and nazism never appeared, but the United States is stuck with governing massive and massively hostile populations in the ex-Confederacy (and Canada). There is a a whole set of militaristic countries having acquired nuclear weapons and 19th century style imperialist patterns still dominating international affairs.
Lets be fair Turtledove also wrote guns of the South where since Robert E. Lee has the benefit of hind sight of what the future would be like himself, he manages to steer an independent south towards something much more laudable….
| 54 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:17:22pm |
re: #38 JasonA
I still don’t entirely get it, though. If I had ancestors who were loyalists during the Revolution I wouldn’t be looking to honor them.
I’m not sure I get it either.
Just reportin’ what I hear and see.
| 55 |
bratwurst Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:18:33pm |
re: #46 Obdicut
That’s sad to hear. I would have thought New Orleans was more cosmopolitan than that, but I think most people think Boston is more cosmopolitan than that, too.
There is a relatively small part of the city that could be termed “cosmopolitan” in a sense. The rest is far from it. I lived in suburbia and the stuff I would overhear in my gym sauna would blow your mind.
| 56 |
Gus Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:19:09pm |
It’s hard not to notice how a lot of the northern state wingnuts have quickly morphed into neo-Confederate sympathizers. They might as well say “we are all neo-Confederates now.”
| 57 |
Vicious Babushka Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:19:47pm |
Here’s a chance to pimp my history archive:
| 58 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:19:54pm |
re: #46 Obdicut
That’s sad to hear. I would have thought New Orleans was more cosmopolitan than that, but I think most people think Boston is more cosmopolitan than that, too.
You ever been to NO?
It’s a city, but I’d hardly call it cosmopolitan.
Cliquish, yes.
Has its own unique (and often harsh) patois.
My mother grew up there; I was born there; and I love it.
But it is a strange place, and I would not want to live there.
| 59 |
Four More Tears Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:19:58pm |
re: #56 Gus 802
It’s hard not to notice how a lot of the northern state wingnuts have quickly morphed into neo-Confederate sympathizers. They might as well say “we are all neo-Confederates now.”
States’ Rights!!
///
| 60 |
Gus Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:20:41pm |
re: #59 JasonA
States’ Rights!!
///
Sovereignty! We must secede in order to succeed!
//Dey tuk are guns!
/
| 61 |
brookly red Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:20:58pm |
| 62 |
William of Orange Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:21:30pm |
Damn! Video is blocked…
This one however works.
[Link: www.facebook.com…]
| 63 |
Obdicut Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:21:47pm |
re: #58 reine.de.tout
No, I actually haven’t visited, New Orleans, just known some lovely people from there. I often make the mistake of judging a place based on the best people I know from it.
| 64 |
sagehen Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:21:50pm |
re: #38 JasonA
I still don’t entirely get it, though. If I had ancestors who were loyalists during the Revolution I wouldn’t be looking to honor them.
Modern Germans certainly don’t wax nostalgia about their grandparents’ proud service to their glorious lost cause. At least not the sane ones.
| 66 |
Aceofwhat? Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:22:33pm |
re: #63 Obdicut
No, I actually haven’t visited, New Orleans, just known some lovely people from there. I often make the mistake of judging a place based on the best people I know from it.
/how prejudicial of you…
| 67 |
palomino Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:22:35pm |
re: #31 reine.de.tout
The grudge is partly fueled, IMO, by the fact that there are quite a few people who have some ancestral ties to those who fought that war, and they are looking for some way to honor those folks.
Check out all the “Daughters of the Confederacy” and “Sons of the Confederacy” that exist. Members have to show some connection to someone in the war, if I recall correctly.
There are other ways to do it.
Sure, but Northerners have those same ancestral ties without obsessing over the Civil War.
Some traditionalist southerners are still really proud of their “great lost cause”, and have fooled themselves into thinking that there was a great deal of nobility in seceding and fighting to preserve slavery.
| 68 |
Obdicut Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:22:44pm |
re: #56 Gus 802
I saw a post on Freep by a guy who said, basically, “I always fantasized about fighting in the civil war for the union but now [that Obama’s been elected] I’d fight for the South.”
It shouldn’t be shocking, but it still is, to me, to hear that kind of, well, treasonous language.
| 69 |
_RememberTonyC Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:23:06pm |
re: #58 reine.de.tout
You ever been to NO?
It’s a city, but I’d hardly call it cosmopolitan.Cliquish, yes.
Has its own unique (and often harsh) patois.My mother grew up there; I was born there; and I love it.
But it is a strange place, and I would not want to live there.
… but if you want beignets or gumbo ….
| 70 |
webevintage Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:23:11pm |
My husband is from Kentucky.
His family was once wealthy and had slaves (to my hubby’s shame) “before the war”.
My BIl is all into the Civil War reenactments. He and his wife are really into into it, but I’ve never heard them say anything racist.
(not to say that there are not people who do this who do not wish for the Old South and a return to slavery or at least when their “coloreds” knew their place.)
Personally I don’t see what is fun about going out in the summer dressed in a wool uniform.
I would assume that guys do this for the same reason my son is into LARPing (he even got real wounds this weekend) and others who reenact the Battle of Hastings or various battles of the Revolutionary War.
| 71 |
jamesfirecat Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:23:17pm |
re: #68 Obdicut
I saw a post on Freep by a guy who said, basically, “I always fantasized about fighting in the civil war for the union but now [that Obama’s been elected] I’d fight for the South.”
It shouldn’t be shocking, but it still is, to me, to hear that kind of, well, treasonous language.
I think you can drop the “Kind of” personally.
| 72 |
Gus Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:23:26pm |
re: #68 Obdicut
I saw a post on Freep by a guy who said, basically, “I always fantasized about fighting in the civil war for the union but now [that Obama’s been elected] I’d fight for the South.”
It shouldn’t be shocking, but it still is, to me, to hear that kind of, well, treasonous language.
There you go. Case in point. They’re like lemmings and so predictable.
| 73 |
Four More Tears Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:25:18pm |
re: #68 Obdicut
I saw a post on Freep by a guy who said, basically, “I always fantasized about fighting in the civil war for the union but now [that Obama’s been elected] I’d fight for the South.”
It shouldn’t be shocking, but it still is, to me, to hear that kind of, well, treasonous language.
I’m 99% sure it’s racist, too. I mean, he didn’t fantasize about fighting for the South when Clinton was President.
| 74 |
bratwurst Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:25:32pm |
re: #58 reine.de.tout
Forgot you were of the area, reine. I was there for work for just over a year. Interesting experience and a FINE place to spend the winter, but was not sad to see it in my rearview mirror.
| 75 |
Obdicut Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:26:54pm |
re: #73 JasonA
Oh it’s obviously racist, even if he doesn’t think it is, and thinks it’s because Obama is a ‘socialist’.
Black president is elected and suddenly you want to fight for the South? I don’t think that needs much interpretation.
| 76 |
swamprat Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:26:59pm |
re: #56 Gus 802
It’s hard not to notice how a lot of the northern state wingnuts have quickly morphed into neo-Confederate sympathizers. They might as well say “we are all neo-Confederates now.”
Might as well let this garbage run its course. The sooner we acknowledge that we still have racism, the sooner we can deal with it. Electing Obama was the light that stirred up the roaches. Now we can see how many people actually think that racism is OK. Better we deal with this now than if it had festered longer.
| 77 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:27:01pm |
re: #63 Obdicut
No, I actually haven’t visited, New Orleans, just known some lovely people from there. I often make the mistake of judging a place based on the best people I know from it.
Heh.
My mom was quite a lovely person.
But the city itself is quite odd.
| 78 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:27:56pm |
re: #67 palomino
Sure, but Northerners have those same ancestral ties without obsessing over the Civil War.
Some traditionalist southerners are still really proud of their “great lost cause”, and have fooled themselves into thinking that there was a great deal of nobility in seceding and fighting to preserve slavery.
that’s probably it.
As I said earlier, I don’t get it.
Just reporting what I’ve seen, heard and observed around me.
| 79 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:28:11pm |
I met a man once who’s last name was (we’ll call him Vanderbilt for anonymity)… He was from an area where the real Vanderbilts lived. He was a black man, I jokingly asked him if he was related to the Vanderbilts.
He said, “No, my ancestors were owned by them, so we now have their name.” He wasn’t upset by my question. Was just very matter of fact.
Took me a moment to realize my jaw was hanging open.
| 80 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:28:24pm |
| 81 |
palomino Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:28:47pm |
re: #45 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I hadn’t heard the “N” word for years until I went to a tavern in Bordentown New Jersey.
Yeah. I was shocked.
I hear it every time I go back to Houston, from family friends and relatives, none of whom are uneducated trailer trash. It’s just part of the vocabulary that hasn’t yet disappeared.
Then again, I’ve heard it in Boston, NYC, LA, pretty much all over.
| 83 |
Gus Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:29:12pm |
re: #73 JasonA
I’m 99% sure it’s racist, too. I mean, he didn’t fantasize about fighting for the South when Clinton was President.
The Confederacy is the “new pink” for the wingnuts. The symbolism is rather frequent at Tea Parties throughout the country. The leadership is ripe with neo-Confederate members as is the blogosphere. From XPAC and their “Lincoln was a tyrant” screed to Joe “You Lie” Wilson who is another neo-Confederate member.
| 84 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:30:25pm |
re: #74 bratwurst
Forgot you were of the area, reine. I was there for work for just over a year. Interesting experience and a FINE place to spend the winter, but was not sad to see it in my rearview mirror.
I hope you got out to other areas of the state. NO is unique in the State. What you see in NOLA, you see nowhere else outside of that area, in the concentration you see it in NOLA. Well, unless the folks you worked with were New Orleanians, in which case every experience you would have had would have been tainted.
| 85 |
keloyd Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:30:54pm |
What’s really cool is the Confederados in Brazil. 10-20,000 Confederate refugees settled in Brazil after the war. Their descendants have intermarried and are now every shade of humanity, every possible mix of African, American Indian, Asian, and European. These Brazilians (and descendants of Portuguese colonialism generally) have little scruples about ethnic intermarriage, and they can’t get enough of waving the Confederate flag around. Analyze that!
| 86 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:31:52pm |
re: #74 bratwurst
Forgot you were of the area, reine. I was there for work for just over a year. Interesting experience and a FINE place to spend the winter, but was not sad to see it in my rearview mirror.
And in fact - honestly - if I know someone will be visiting La., I recommend they skip NO altogether. There’s just so much more of equal or greater historic and aesthetic value in other areas.
| 87 |
palomino Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:34:09pm |
re: #78 reine.de.tout
that’s probably it.
As I said earlier, I don’t get it.
Just reporting what I’ve seen, heard and observed around me.
Really is one of the stranger aspects of American culture. I grew up in TX hearing neighbors talk of the “South rising again.” My parents weren’t native Southerners, and we just never could relate to these bizarre fantasies.
| 88 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:34:10pm |
re: #79 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I met a man once who’s last name was (we’ll call him Vanderbilt for anonymity)… He was from an area where the real Vanderbilts lived. He was a black man, I jokingly asked him if he was related to the Vanderbilts.
He said, “No, my ancestors were owned by them, so we now have their name.” He wasn’t upset by my question. Was just very matter of fact.
Took me a moment to realize my jaw was hanging open.
I’ve told this story before, but one of my college friends found herself chatting with a coworker at a Dominos Pizza in Honolulu late one night, and worked out that her grandmother’s family had probably owned his family.
She burst into tears. He thought it was pretty funny that they both ended up working for Dominos in Honolulu.
| 89 |
Gus Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:34:19pm |
re: #85 keloyd
What’s really cool is the Confederados in Brazil. 10-20,000 Confederate refugees settled in Brazil after the war. Their descendants have intermarried and are now every shade of humanity, every possible mix of African, American Indian, Asian, and European. These Brazilians (and descendants of Portuguese colonialism generally) have little scruples about ethnic intermarriage, and they can’t get enough of waving the Confederate flag around. Analyze that!
That interesting but I don’t see how one’s “scruples” fits in with “ethnic intermarriage.”
| 90 |
jamesfirecat Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:36:33pm |
re: #89 Gus 802
That interesting but I don’t see how one’s “scruples” fits in with “ethnic intermarriage.”
Apparently fear of inbreeding themselves into being drooling idiots tops scruples…
| 91 |
brookly red Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:36:54pm |
re: #81 palomino
I hear it every time I go back to Houston, from family friends and relatives, none of whom are uneducated trailer trash. It’s just part of the vocabulary that hasn’t yet disappeared.
Then again, I’ve heard it in Boston, NYC, LA, pretty much all over.
Here in NYC I hear it on the radio all the time… there is a subtle difference between ending the word in er or in a but I it has been discussed here before.
| 92 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:37:53pm |
re: #79 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I met a man once who’s last name was (we’ll call him Vanderbilt for anonymity)… He was from an area where the real Vanderbilts lived. He was a black man, I jokingly asked him if he was related to the Vanderbilts.
He said, “No, my ancestors were owned by them, so we now have their name.” He wasn’t upset by my question. Was just very matter of fact.
Took me a moment to realize my jaw was hanging open.
I had the same experience once with a guy I worked with, last name of Poydras, which is a street and some buildings in New Orleans named after Julien Poydras
| 93 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:38:15pm |
| 94 |
brookly red Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:38:49pm |
re: #88 SanFranciscoZionist
I’ve told this story before, but one of my college friends found herself chatting with a coworker at a Dominos Pizza in Honolulu late one night, and worked out that her grandmother’s family had probably owned his family.
She burst into tears. He thought it was pretty funny that they both ended up working for Dominos in Honolulu.
I once dated a girl who’s name was Von __________ … not quite as funny.
| 95 |
windsagio Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:39:10pm |
re: #91 brookly red
Its actually really interesting how impressed classes take ownership of language sometimes. Interesting and cool.
| 96 |
_RememberTonyC Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:39:37pm |
re: #94 brookly red
I once dated a girl who’s name was Von ___ … not quite as funny.
Sunny Von Bulow?
| 97 |
Shiplord Kirel Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:39:39pm |
re: #53 jamesfirecat
Lets be fair Turtledove also wrote guns of the South where since Robert E. Lee has the benefit of hind sight of what the future would be like himself, he manages to steer an independent south towards something much more laudable…
True, but Guns of the South is much more a work of science fiction, a time travel story, than a straightforward work of alternate history.
Lee has hindsight only because of the original premise, intervention by time travelers, which was the reason for the break with real history in the first place. That intervention also results in Lee’s life being extended (he died in 1870 in the real world) since Confederate scientists are able to duplicate the nitroglycerine cardiac medication the racist time travelers had been trying to use to bribe him.
I actually thought Guns of the South was better written and generally more entertaining than the long, long Timeline 191 saga but it is a fundamentally different kind of story.
| 98 |
Jeff In Ohio Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:39:46pm |
re: #77 reine.de.tout
Heh.
My mom was quite a lovely person.But the city itself is quite odd.
I’ve been a frequent visitor since 1985 or so. My cousin lived there a good while (and still has a place out by the race track), my sister lived there a few years and my brother has been there since about 1982 (Garden District).
I haven’t been there since Katrina, but for freaks like me, New Orleans was the top of the east coast cities because it could be so odd and cheap. Music, freaks, sex, danger - it has (had?) it all in spades. I spent many an hour busking on Charters and under the veranda at the Cabildo and getting drunk at the Napoleon House (where you can hear a song about that here), chasing a messenger girl on a bitching Triumph Tiger.
Good times, God I miss that bike.
| 99 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:40:04pm |
re: #94 brookly red
I once dated a girl who’s name was Von ___ … not quite as funny.
Still worth while knowing that every time you kissed, there was gnashing of teeth in Hell.
| 100 |
Gus Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:40:13pm |
re: #90 jamesfirecat
Apparently fear of inbreeding themselves into being drooling idiots tops scruples…
Uh oh! I’m reading the Wiki link and I just eyeballed something about Carter.
[Puts hands in pockets.]
//
| 101 |
Four More Tears Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:40:15pm |
re: #88 SanFranciscoZionist
I’ve told this story before, but one of my college friends found herself chatting with a coworker at a Dominos Pizza in Honolulu late one night, and worked out that her grandmother’s family had probably owned his family.
She burst into tears. He thought it was pretty funny that they both ended up working for Dominos in Honolulu.
Sounds like the result of that Social Justice crap that the voices in Glenn Beck’s head have been warning me about…
| 102 |
windsagio Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:40:15pm |
re: #95 windsagio
*opressed, what would ‘impressed’ even mean in that context? >>
| 103 |
brookly red Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:41:31pm |
re: #95 windsagio
Its actually really interesting how impressed classes take ownership of language sometimes. Interesting and cool.
really it is… and it does wield power at times.
| 104 |
jamesfirecat Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:41:45pm |
re: #97 Shiplord Kirel
True, but Guns of the South is much more a work of science fiction, a time travel story, than a straightforward work of alternate history.
Lee has hindsight only because of the original premise, intervention by time travelers, which was the reason for the break with real history in the first place. That intervention also results in Lee’s life being extended (he died in 1870 in the real world) since Confederate scientists are able to duplicate the nitroglycerine cardiac medication the racist time travelers had been trying to use to bribe him.
I actually thought Guns of the South was better written and generally more entertaining than the long, long Timeline 191 saga but it is a fundamentally different kind of story.
No doubts with you there, because Guns of the South is all very self contained and GASP for a Turtle Dove novel there are only two viewpoint characters as opposed to say his Darkness books about fantasy WW2 which have about a dozen of them.
That said I still would be interested in seeing sequel to Guns of The South, though I suppose part of its charm is how self contained it is…
| 105 |
keloyd Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:42:21pm |
re: #89 Gus 802
A scruple can be just a qualm as well as a perceived ethical concern that stops you doing something. Ethnic intermarriage has been against most of humanity’s rules for most of recorded time. If you’re taught from birth that it’s “unethical” to mix with the cute bronze skinned Brazilian girl next door, and you marry her anyway, in decades past, that’s a defensible use of the word “scruple” imho. We also have been proven right when we bent our scruples on letting non-priests read the Bible, printing the Bible on (lower class) paper rather than (upper class) parchment, eating meat during Lent, and when Huck Finn said, in so many words “F_ck it, I’ll go to hell later and help Jim escape today.”
| 106 |
brookly red Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:43:09pm |
re: #99 SanFranciscoZionist
Still worth while knowing that every time you kissed, there was gnashing of teeth in Hell.
I don’t think we had even to that far… there were issues hear on earth.
| 107 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:43:35pm |
re: #98 Jeff In Ohio
It still has it all.
But if you live there and live the way you describe, you’re just not gonna last long. Residential experience is completely different.
| 108 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:43:48pm |
re: #101 JasonA
Sounds like the result of that Social Justice crap that the voices in Glenn Beck’s head have been warning me about…
Stupid social justice!!
“I have a dream that one day on the late-night shift in Honolulu the sons of former slaves and the daughters of former slave-owners will be able to sit down together at a table on their smoke break…”
OK, it’s not as impressive as the original, but damn, we have come a long way.
| 109 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:44:55pm |
re: #105 keloyd
Ethnic intermarriage has been against most of humanity’s rules for most of recorded time.
I think I’d challenge that one. Just because the Victorians fainted at the thought doesn’t mean that’s a universal tendency.
| 110 |
Aceofwhat? Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:47:57pm |
re: #105 keloyd
Ethnic intermarriage has been against most of
humanity’sthe Confederacy’s rules.
Now it’s more accurate AND it relates back to your story more clearly.
That was a sampler…for similarly impressive effects, my consultancy fee is $800/hr…
| 111 |
Jeff In Ohio Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:48:12pm |
re: #79 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I met a man once who’s last name was (we’ll call him Vanderbilt for anonymity)… He was from an area where the real Vanderbilts lived. He was a black man, I jokingly asked him if he was related to the Vanderbilts.
He said, “No, my ancestors were owned by them, so we now have their name.” He wasn’t upset by my question. Was just very matter of fact.
Took me a moment to realize my jaw was hanging open.
This was common among slave owning families. When I meet a black person with the same surname as me, I always ask where their family is from, and if it’s eastern Ohio or central Tennessee, I state why I’m interested and if it would be ok to ask a lot more questions.
My father tells a great story about meeting a porter in Lousiville, Ky. who shared last names. Turns out the man was related to my dad’s ‘Uncle Pete’, a former slave and family friend who lived down the road from the family farm when dad was a kid.
| 112 |
windsagio Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:48:12pm |
re: #104 jamesfirecat
Never managed to try a Turtledove book.
Is he a John Norman-esque nut, or just really strongly stuck in one particular genre?
| 113 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:48:31pm |
Just occurred to me. These guys are much, much better golfers than I am.
| 114 |
windsagio Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:48:36pm |
re: #110 Aceofwhat?
Haha, I was desperately trying to resist saying that :D
| 115 |
brookly red Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:49:05pm |
re: #109 SanFranciscoZionist
I think I’d challenge that one. Just because the Victorians fainted at the thought doesn’t mean that’s a universal tendency.
Oh I don’t know… “stick to your own kind” is not just a song from a musical…
| 116 |
CuriousLurker Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:49:15pm |
re: #88 SanFranciscoZionist
I feel bad for your friend even though she obviously had no control over the past.
Several years back I did some pretty extensive genealogical research on both sides of my family. I was mightily relieved to discover that no one on either side had ever bought or sold another human being, and the ones that fought in the Civil War fought for the Union.
| 117 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:49:50pm |
re: #113 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Just occurred to me. These guys are much, much better golfers than I am.
Just now occurring to you?
Have some pie, get your mind in gear. There are many other remarkable things that are true just awaiting discovery.
| 118 |
brookly red Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:50:06pm |
re: #110 Aceofwhat?
Now it’s more accurate AND it relates back to your story more clearly.
That was a sampler…for similarly impressive effects, my consultancy fee is $800/hr…
consultants rule!
| 119 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:50:19pm |
re: #110 Aceofwhat?
Now it’s more accurate AND it relates back to your story more clearly.
That was a sampler…for similarly impressive effects, my consultancy fee is $800/hr…
My father was once talking before a meeting to a friend who runs an organization that promotes gay human rights internationally. She’d hired a consultant to suggest some new names for her outfit, and they’d charged some outrageous fee, and in the end, she decided not to change.
She was pregnant at the time, and had already decided on a name for the baby. During the meeting my father doodled a list of possible other names for the baby. After the meeting he gave her the list, and said that would be $5,000—special rate for friends.
| 120 |
Jeff In Ohio Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:51:05pm |
re: #107 reine.de.tout
It still has it all.
But if you live there and live the way you describe, you’re just not gonna last long. Residential experience is completely different.
No doubt, I’m always just passing through.
| 121 |
Shiplord Kirel Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:51:23pm |
re: #104 jamesfirecat
No doubts with you there, because Guns of the South is all very self contained and GASP for a Turtle Dove novel there are only two viewpoint characters as opposed to say his Darkness books about fantasy WW2 which have about a dozen of them.
That said I still would be interested in seeing sequel to Guns of The South, though I suppose part of its charm is how self contained it is…
I’ve thought about that myself. It would be fun to see what 19th century scientists make of the 21st century gadgets captured from the time travelers. There was some of this in Guns of the South, their analyses of smokeless powder and the Union’s creation of a manual action, black powder derivative of the AK, but a lot more would be possible with story extended.
Turtledove’s technical acumen could have made this a lot of fun. For example, top level 1860s engineers would have little trouble understanding the basics of the Honda portable generator from the time-travelers’ Richmond headquarters. Duplicating it would have been another story entirely though, since it would depend on materials and processes that were just not available at the time. Portable radios would have been a complete mystery technically but knowing that it was possible would have led to a tremendous amount of research. This would probably have been successful almost immediately, since usable radio was only a couple of decades in the real world anyway.
| 122 |
Aceofwhat? Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:51:37pm |
re: #114 windsagio
Haha, I was desperately trying to resist saying that :D
I have less self-control than most…
| 123 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:51:43pm |
re: #115 brookly red
Oh I don’t know… “stick to your own kind” is not just a song from a musical…
Some societies are strongly endogamous, but I would say most are not, at least not along ‘ethnic’ lines.
| 124 |
Gus Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:52:01pm |
re: #119 SanFranciscoZionist
My father was once talking before a meeting to a friend who runs an organization that promotes gay human rights internationally. She’d hired a consultant to suggest some new names for her outfit, and they’d charged some outrageous fee, and in the end, she decided not to change.
She was pregnant at the time, and had already decided on a name for the baby. During the meeting my father doodled a list of possible other names for the baby. After the meeting he gave her the list, and said that would be $5,000—special rate for friends.
$5000 for a list? And for a friend? That must have been in the 90s.
| 125 |
windsagio Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:52:42pm |
re: #122 Aceofwhat?
I’d call it ‘braver’, its a virtue then :D
| 126 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:53:00pm |
re: #123 SanFranciscoZionist
Uh… I’m monosyllabic.
| 127 |
JHW Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:53:12pm |
# He set his own slaves free long before the Civil War was even considered.
# He helped to establish the first interracial college in the nation.
# Published “The True American” to stir the ire, conscience and vote of the white working class.
# Was nominated for President by acclamation at the Convention and deferred to Lincoln.
# He drew record crowds to speak on Lincoln’s behalf.
# He gave Lincoln critically needed financial support.
# Through Mary Todd was Lincoln’s most trusted advisor.
# Helped Lincoln draft the Emancipation Proclamation.
# Should have been Vice President or Secretary of War, but instead became our Ambassador to Russia.
# Initiated and consummated the purchase of Alaska, no money down and interest only.
# For this he got the Russian Navy to anchor ships in our harbors warning Europe to stay out of our war!
Instead, he evolved a plan which would put an end to slavery and give the black man the opportunity to be educated.He determined that the first step was to use his wealth and social position to get himself elected to the Kentucky legislature, which he did before he was 25 years old.
His strategy accepted the fact that he could never get the 7% of the southern population that owned slaves to change their minds and directed his energies instead to the 93% of the white working people that were “poor white trash” as a result of having to compete with this almost free slave labor.The white working class was in bondage to slavery just like the blacks and Clay knew that as voters they had the power to put an end to this ugly disease stifling the South.
By using his newspaper, “The True American,” Cash sought to inform this vast majority of the population of the terrible financial burdens they were suffering due to having to compete with slave labor. Using logic, reasoning, and financial issues as his weapons, Clay made great strides against incalculable odds.Long before the Civil War started he had already caused laws to be passed in his home state of Kentucky which placed a moratorium on any new slave being brought into the state and prohibited further transfers or trading outside the state.
Yes, Cassius Clay used his intellect, his wealth, and his influence to sell a nation on the concept that slavery was not only economic suicide, but against God’s commandments and morally wrong.To his rich neighbors and detractors he was indeed a “lunatic,” traitor,” and a “madman,” and they sought every opportunity to silence his fiery mind.
Clay was the almost constant target of attack including assination attempts upon himself and kidnapping attempts upon his children.One of his youngsters, his namesake, Cassius Marcellus Clay, Jr. was fatally poisoned in an effort to coerce Cash into silence. Clay, a man who made it known in writing that he would die before he would compromise his conscience, would not be silenced!
It is a known fact that Cash Clay gave money and land to a Reverend James Fee to build a home, church and a school which ultimately grew into Berea College (the first interracial college in America).There is also no doubt that Cash’s speeches in N.Y. churches (where he drew the biggest crowd ever assembled at that time) and throughout the rest of the northern states did influence legislation creating 965 brand new elementary schools and even universities such as Howard, Atlanta, Hampton and Fisk, all for the 97% of the freed blacks which were so illiterate they could not even sign their name and made their “mark” usually with an X.
And
N.Y. Times article, Jan. 17 1860
Cassius M. Clay in Kentucky
| 128 |
Aceofwhat? Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:53:57pm |
re: #113 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Just occurred to me. These guys are much, much better golfers than I am.
that’s the tough thing about watching golf. when i watch tennis, it makes me want to go hit. when i watch golf, it makes me depressed at how much i suck.
| 129 |
brookly red Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:53:59pm |
re: #123 SanFranciscoZionist
Some societies are strongly endogamous, but I would say most are not, at least not along ‘ethnic’ lines.
much has changed, much has not… it is what it is.
| 130 |
swamprat Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:54:01pm |
Well, I’m going out to pick up some smores-flavored schnapps. Stay lizardly.
| 132 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:55:26pm |
re: #128 Aceofwhat?
I still think it is animated.
| 133 |
JHW Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:56:39pm |
re: #131 windsagio
The man is Muhammed Ali’s namesake, if you read what I posted you might understand why.
| 134 |
Shiplord Kirel Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:57:02pm |
re: #112 windsagio
Never managed to try a Turtledove book.
Is he a John Norman-esque nut, or just really strongly stuck in one particular genre?
Turtledove writes only alternate history and scholarly historical non-fiction. He is as far from John Norman as could possibly be though.
He is not a top-level stylist or literary craftsman but his historical insight and the quality of his research are remarkable. He also has a rather zany sense of humor at times, including very elaborate jokes that spring up suddenly but that are sometimes very long in the making.
| 135 |
Aceofwhat? Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:57:07pm |
re: #123 SanFranciscoZionist
Some societies are strongly endogamous, but I would say most are not, at least not along ‘ethnic’ lines.
hmmm…my university was highly diverse…lots of Asian, Indian, Pakistani, Eastern European, etc.
the males were certainly open to relationships across ethnic boundaries. the females were far less open. to this day, i can’t figure out how much of it was due to the gender of the student and how much of it was due to how the gender of the student related to how they were raised…interesting topic, though.
| 136 |
Jeff In Ohio Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:57:23pm |
re: #116 CuriousLurker
I feel bad for your friend even though she obviously had no control over the past.
Several years back I did some pretty extensive genealogical research on both sides of my family. I was mightily relieved to discover that no one on either side had ever bought or sold another human being, and the ones that fought in the Civil War fought for the Union.
You can’t control where you come from.
My family fought on both sides and they all owned slaves. When we had a black cousin come to the family reuinio a couple of years ago, the descendants of the ones that fought for the Union (and were rewarded for it greatly) were the ones who were the most impolite. The descendants of the ones of fought for the Confederacy had her over for dinner, played music for her, danced with her, you no, made her feel like she was family.
You can control your own behavior.
| 137 |
brookly red Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:57:31pm |
finished tortellinis… time to walk mastiffs. oh joy.
| 138 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:58:20pm |
See the shot Tiger just made? Or was that a replay?
| 139 |
SteveC Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:58:31pm |
re: #110 Aceofwhat?
That was a sampler…for similarly impressive effects, my consultancy fee is $800/hr…
Damn, how do you keep all the Little Aces fed working that cheap?
| 140 |
Jeff In Ohio Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:59:28pm |
re: #137 brookly red
finished tortellinis… time to walk mastiffs. oh joy.
So do those dogs come with some guys in little cars, wearing fez’s and carrying coal shovels?
| 141 |
jamesfirecat Sun, Apr 11, 2010 12:59:58pm |
re: #134 Shiplord Kirel
Turtledove writes only alternate history and scholarly historical non-fiction. He is as far from John Norman as could possibly be though.
He is not a top-level stylist or literary craftsman but his historical insight and the quality of his research are remarkable. He also has a rather zany sense of humor at times, including very elaborate jokes that spring up suddenly but that are sometimes very long in the making.
I liked the “joke” he did where in the fantasy version of the Civil War he had one officer tell the general in charge of the rebelling army unless someone showed up from out of thin air with a crossbow (they using crossbows instead of guns) that could shoot ten times as fast as those belonging to the other army they were pretty much licked….
| 142 |
SteveC Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:00:08pm |
re: #127 JHW
And
N.Y. Times article, Jan. 17 1860
Cassius M. Clay in Kentucky
Rumble young man, RUMBLE!
| 143 |
ryannon Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:00:35pm |
re: #138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
See the shot Tiger just made? Or was that a replay?
OT: Worst headline of the day:
Tiger Woods hole-by-hole updates at the Masters.
| 144 |
brookly red Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:00:49pm |
re: #140 Jeff In Ohio
So do those dogs come with some guys in little cars, wearing fez’s and carrying coal shovels?
i do the shoveling…
| 145 |
Gus Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:01:03pm |
More shameful moments in history:
Example: Oregon banned whites from marrying Blacks, Native Americans, Asians, Native Hawaiians. 1862-1951
| 146 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:01:06pm |
re: #135 Aceofwhat?
hmmm…my university was highly diverse…lots of Asian, Indian, Pakistani, Eastern European, etc.
the males were certainly open to relationships across ethnic boundaries. the females were far less open. to this day, i can’t figure out how much of it was due to the gender of the student and how much of it was due to how the gender of the student related to how they were raised…interesting topic, though.
I personally think women enter into “relationships” (vs. a date here or there) for different reasons than men.
My experience - women are much more likely to be attracted to someone whose background and values and religious beliefs, etc., are similar to their own.
My .02, worth about - .02.
| 147 |
ryannon Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:01:30pm |
| 148 |
windsagio Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:02:12pm |
re: #133 JHW
Its more me missing why the crap its relevant to the thread at all.
What is your point in doing a list of cool facts about a guy anyways?
Did I miss him coming up somewhere upthread?
| 149 |
keloyd Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:02:39pm |
re: #109 SanFranciscoZionist
I think I’d challenge that one. Just because the Victorians fainted at the thought doesn’t mean that’s a universal tendency.
1. I did say “most”, and I’m not enough of an anthropologist to be definitive.
2. I grant the taboo on ‘racial’ intermixing has only there a few centuries, because that’s how long it’s been since scientific quacks made it up.
3. Consider our discussion yesterday (?) on the genetic distinctiveness of European Jews. Viking or Mongol hordes may have mixed up the genetic soup a bit, in their own charming way, but most of us for 5 millenia of recorded history have married nearby, and usually in arrangements made by our elders, usually cousins.
4. Look at India- dozens of populations have lived cheek by jowl for centuries and not mixed very much.
5. Look at old people…or Fiddle on The Roof, or a certain Korean lady whose a friend of the family and was scandalized when her daughter started dating an American (she meant White guy) at college. The way they think now is how everyone thought back in the day,imho.
| 150 |
Aceofwhat? Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:03:45pm |
re: #138 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
See the shot Tiger just made? Or was that a replay?
i heard yelling from the quiet neighbor behind me. i love how sports brings out the crazy in all of us…
| 151 |
JHW Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:04:14pm |
re: #148 windsagio
Sorry to offend you, I thought it was pertinent to a Civil War related thread, certainly more so than baseball teams.
Mea culpa.
| 152 |
windsagio Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:04:25pm |
re: #149 keloyd
I’m not sure mentioning Jews is entirely helpful, because they’re, well, kinda a special case.
| 153 |
windsagio Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:04:35pm |
re: #151 JHW
I’m not offended, I’m just trying to suss out your angle :P
| 154 |
Political Atheist Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:04:53pm |
re: #79 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Hmm. I guess for privacy reasons I should not name the name-But my ancestors (at least the surname is certain) came here on the colonial ship Mary & John. 1600’s! Some of those descendants had slaves. At emancipation many of these slaves took on the family surname. Now there are far and away more African Americans with my surname than the Caucasian/French ethnic.
| 155 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:05:09pm |
re: #151 JHW
Sorry to offend you, I thought it was pertinent to a Civil War related thread, certainly more so than baseball teams.
Mea culpa.
A whole bunch of copypasta just tends to get passed over. Just sayin’.
| 156 |
windsagio Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:06:23pm |
re: #155 WindUpBird
especially without any intro like: “Hey, speaking of the civil war, I think this is an interesting guy!”
| 157 |
brookly red Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:06:36pm |
re: #146 reine.de.tout
I personally think women enter into “relationships” (vs. a date here or there) for different reasons than men.
My experience - women are much more likely to be attracted to someone whose background and values and religious beliefs, etc., are similar to their own.
My .02, worth about - .02.
/Ok so I wear a Obama button when I hit the bars in NYC… sue me.
| 158 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:06:48pm |
re: #156 windsagio
especially without any intro like: “Hey, speaking of the civil war, I think this is an interesting guy!”
CONTEXT WUT
| 159 |
Aceofwhat? Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:07:26pm |
re: #146 reine.de.tout
I personally think women enter into “relationships” (vs. a date here or there) for different reasons than men.
My experience - women are much more likely to be attracted to someone whose background and values and religious beliefs, etc., are similar to their own.
My .02, worth about - .02.
sounds very logical to me. and a perfectly good explanation for some (not all) natural human resistance to mixed ethnic relationships.
| 160 |
sagehen Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:07:27pm |
re: #121 Shiplord Kirel
My favorite time travel series is Eric Flint’s 1632.
A small West Virginia town from the year 2000, complete with electric plant, a couple of machine shops, a well-stocked gun shop, library, small hospital, etc, is science-fictionally transplanted to the middle of Europe in 1632. The people immediately set out to make this timeline what they’d like it to be.
(maybe my favorite moment is when the town council decides they must immediately send a delegation to open trade relations with Turkey. “They’re the only people in the whole world with coffee!”).
| 161 |
_RememberTonyC Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:09:39pm |
re: #143 ryannon
OT: Worst headline of the day:
Tiger Woods hole-by-hole updates at the Masters.
did he play 18 or 36 today?
| 162 |
Four More Tears Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:09:47pm |
re: #160 sagehen
My favorite time travel series is Eric Flint’s 1632.
(maybe my favorite moment is when the town council decides they must immediately send a delegation to open trade relations with Turkey. “They’re the only people in the whole world with coffee!”).
Trade? Hell, wars have been fought over less than that.
| 163 |
HoosierHoops Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:09:48pm |
Well..It was a great party yesterday in Wanamaker, In.
The folks having the party are really rich.. He hired a band.. fully stocked Bar..Killer house…
I got to play one set with the band.. They loved my Green foam colored Strat..
It was so much fun…
Every party has a few weird moments.. Here are mine…
A girl sat down at the party by me at the bar.. She introduced herself and husband to me..When he wandered off she whispered in my ear that they are getting a divorce when the tax check arrives…Really?
Talk about an uncomfortable moment…Bartender! Bring me another drink!
We were drinking some kind of really expensive premium rum I have never heard of…Shit tasted great.. I need to call him and find out what the heck that was..
About 2 or 3am some guy at the bar started hitting my back with a rubber microphone.. Stop it! He didn’t stop..He was having great fun hitting me on my back with this big toy..I have no idea why…
At a certain point..I got pissed off..He stopped..
Great food great party..And a few crazy people
| 164 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:10:56pm |
re: #146 reine.de.tout
I personally think women enter into “relationships” (vs. a date here or there) for different reasons than men.
My experience - women are much more likely to be attracted to someone whose background and values and religious beliefs, etc., are similar to their own.
My .02, worth about - .02.
I don’t know about background or religious beliefs (as I really don’t have any concrete religious beliefs) but I wouldn’t DREAM of entering a relationship where I didn’t share many interests with my partner.
| 166 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:11:36pm |
re: #159 Aceofwhat?
sounds very logical to me. and a perfectly good explanation for some (not all) natural human resistance to mixed ethnic relationships.
One day I was wondering, gee — it would be great to be really rich!
Then I started wondering - would I really have been interested, ever, in marrying a guy like, say Donald Trump?
And the answer was - no way. I just have no interest in that sort of life. I’ve been married 3 times - the one that “took” is the current one - hubby grew up in similar circumstances, same religious beliefs, same sort of values. Coincidence? I think not.
| 167 |
keloyd Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:11:59pm |
re: #152 windsagio
I’m not sure mentioning Jews is entirely helpful, because they’re, well, kinda a special case.
It’s an extreme case, and SFZ and I did a little sub-thread on it just yesterday. My point remains, we are mentally wired for “stick with your own”, and it takes some conscious effort to grow out of that. Even now, I’m open minded about dating any possible ethnicity but it helps when they’re also middle class like me, educated about like me, shares certain values like me. The “stick with your own” thing is still kind of there, just not in the ethnic sense. Back to the original point, the Brazilian Confederados being totally ethnically mixed is remarkable and a good thing, which was my original point.
| 168 |
sagehen Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:12:02pm |
re: #146 reine.de.tout
I personally think women enter into “relationships” (vs. a date here or there) for different reasons than men.
My experience - women are much more likely to be attracted to someone whose background and values and religious beliefs, etc., are similar to their own.
My .02, worth about - .02.
Plus of course, for large swaths of history and in some cultures still today, women often enter into relationships not of their own choosing.
| 169 |
_RememberTonyC Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:13:15pm |
re: #163 HoosierHoops
Well..It was a great party yesterday in Wanamaker, In.
The folks having the party are really rich.. He hired a band.. fully stocked Bar..Killer house…
I got to play one set with the band.. They loved my Green foam colored Strat..
It was so much fun…
Every party has a few weird moments.. Here are mine…
A girl sat down at the party by me at the bar.. She introduced herself and husband to me..When he wandered off she whispered in my ear that they are getting a divorce when the tax check arrives…Really?
Talk about an uncomfortable moment…Bartender! Bring me another drink!
We were drinking some kind of really expensive premium rum I have never heard of…Shit tasted great.. I need to call him and find out what the heck that was..
About 2 or 3am some guy at the bar started hitting my back with a rubber microphone.. Stop it! He didn’t stop..He was having great fun hitting me on my back with this big toy..I have no idea why…
At a certain point..I got pissed off..He stopped..
Great food great party..And a few crazy people
I think the chick was looking for a direct deposit from you, dawg!
| 170 |
Four More Tears Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:13:51pm |
re: #167 keloyd
It’s an extreme case, and SFZ and I did a little sub-thread on it just yesterday. My point remains, we are mentally wired for “stick with your own”, and it takes some conscious effort to grow out of that. Even now, I’m open minded about dating any possible ethnicity but it helps when they’re also middle class like me, educated about like me, shares certain values like me. The “stick with your own” thing is still kind of there, just not in the ethnic sense. Back to the original point, the Brazilian Confederados being totally ethnically mixed is remarkable and a good thing, which was my original point.
As I understand biology ethnic diversity in the gene pool is a very good thing.
| 171 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:13:54pm |
re: #169 _RememberTonyC
I think the chick was looking for a direct deposit from you, dawg!
Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more, say no more…
| 172 |
Aceofwhat? Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:15:34pm |
re: #166 reine.de.tout
One day I was wondering, gee — it would be great to be really rich!
Then I started wondering - would I really have been interested, ever, in marrying a guy like, say Donald Trump?And the answer was - no way. I just have no interest in that sort of life. I’ve been married 3 times - the one that “took” is the current one - hubby grew up in similar circumstances, same religious beliefs, same sort of values. Coincidence? I think not.
i like.
it always seemed to me that anecdotal evidence suggests that it’s hardest to be really, truly happy at both the very rich and the very poor ends of the spectrum. nothing scientific here…just musing…
| 173 |
Aceofwhat? Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:16:23pm |
re: #171 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more, say no more…
a nod’s as good as a wink to a blind bat, eh?
| 174 |
Aceofwhat? Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:17:15pm |
re: #170 JasonA
As I understand biology ethnic diversity in the gene pool is a very good thing.
the consistent hotness of mixed-ethnic offspring is supporting evidence, IMHO…
| 175 |
reine.de.tout Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:17:42pm |
re: #172 Aceofwhat?
i like.
it always seemed to me that anecdotal evidence suggests that it’s hardest to be really, truly happy at both the very rich and the very poor ends of the spectrum. nothing scientific here…just musing…
I agree with your musings, again, just from observation.
I’ve got everything I need - actually, most everything I really want - plus a good husband, fine daughter - I’m perfectly perfectly happy.
| 176 |
Vicious Babushka Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:17:42pm |
re: #163 HoosierHoops
Hoops, means to ask you, please chance my Dad’s name on the prayer list to Pinhas ben Rivka. Thanks.
| 177 |
Four More Tears Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:18:15pm |
re: #172 Aceofwhat?
i like.
it always seemed to me that anecdotal evidence suggests that it’s hardest to be really, truly happy at both the very rich and the very poor ends of the spectrum. nothing scientific here…just musing…
I dunno. Richard Branson never seemed to be unhappy to me. Howard Hughes is a different case, at least later in life. I think it depends on the individual.
| 178 |
Sol Berdinowitz Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:19:28pm |
To paraphrase Michael Steele, rich men have a “larger margin of error” when it comes to their attractiveness to women than poor f*ckers like me…
| 179 |
Gus Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:19:29pm |
Removing dead Civil War soldiers - Image
At Cold Harbor, Virginia, African American men gather up the bones of Civil War soldiers killed in battle.
Content warning.
| 180 |
Four More Tears Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:21:19pm |
re: #174 Aceofwhat?
the consistent hotness of mixed-ethnic offspring is supporting evidence, IMHO…
It also helps to get rid of genetic diseases, like Sickle Cell.
| 181 |
HoosierHoops Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:21:59pm |
re: #176 Alouette
Hoops, means to ask you, please chance my Dad’s name on the prayer list to Pinhas ben Rivka. Thanks.
Done my Friend..My your Father get well and healthy
| 182 |
Aceofwhat? Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:22:23pm |
re: #177 JasonA
I dunno. Richard Branson never seemed to be unhappy to me. Howard Hughes is a different case, at least later in life. I think it depends on the individual.
Certainly. It was a general observation, of course. But i’d bet that you could sample 20 houses in Bel-Air and find above-average dysfunction.
| 183 |
keloyd Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:23:49pm |
re: #170 JasonA
Genetically, yes! Otherwise, you get this. Culturally, it’s a bit more mixed. Consider the bad connotation of “half breed” in ages past. Consider also the very shabby treatment of the offspring of US soldiers and Asian women in several countries. Traditional treatment of the mixed ethnicity “outsider” is very shabby - not here and now, not today, but in traditional societies. My original point was the Confederate refugees who went to Brazil had to do a bit of mental heavy lifting to turn their backs on what they had been taught and intermarry, enthusiastically until their descendants look like a Benetton commercial, which I approve of completely.
| 184 |
Shiplord Kirel Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:25:50pm |
re: #160 sagehen
My favorite time travel series is Eric Flint’s 1632.
A small West Virginia town from the year 2000, complete with electric plant, a couple of machine shops, a well-stocked gun shop, library, small hospital, etc, is science-fictionally transplanted to the middle of Europe in 1632. The people immediately set out to make this timeline what they’d like it to be.
(maybe my favorite moment is when the town council decides they must immediately send a delegation to open trade relations with Turkey. “They’re the only people in the whole world with coffee!”).
I haven’t read it yet but I will put it on my list. I really, really like stories like that. The great Murray Leinster’s very first SF story, the Runaway Skyscraper, follows a similar premise and was written way back in 1919. It is pretty unsophisticated compared to his later work, let alone to current practice in the genre, but it’s a lot of fun anyway. It involves a brand-new Manhattan office building falling back in time to the 15th century. It helped that most large buildings in the early 20 century had their own powerplants.
The current Nantucket series by SM Stirling uses a similar premise. I have not read it either, unfortunately. I really need to catch up on this stuff.
For the sake of full disclosure and in spite of my well-known modesty, I am actually writing a similar story myself. I should be finished with it (someday). My version is a humorous treatment with the citizens of a twenty-first century west Texas town waking up one morning to find that their community and everything for a 10 kilometer radius has been catapulted back to the early 16th century. The locals hunt buffalo, scare the bejeezus out of some Comanches, try to mobilize the local scientific and technical talent, and eventually make contact with Cortez during his invasion of Mexico.
| 185 |
Four More Tears Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:25:51pm |
re: #182 Aceofwhat?
Certainly. It was a general observation, of course. But i’d bet that you could sample 20 houses in Bel-Air and find above-average dysfunction.
Well, just because they live in Bel Air doesn’t mean they’re on the ridiculously rich side of the spectrum with Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, etc., who, if I had to bet money, I would say are happy. I’m not really pushing the point that much, I just want to believe that I’ll be happy when I can swim in vault full of gold :D
| 186 |
blueraven Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:26:26pm |
re: #169 _RememberTonyC
I think the chick was looking for a direct deposit from you, dawg!
At the very least, a post-dated check!
| 188 |
Four More Tears Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:34:52pm |
re: #183 keloyd
Genetically, yes! Otherwise, you get this. Culturally, it’s a bit more mixed. Consider the bad connotation of “half breed” in ages past. Consider also the very shabby treatment of the offspring of US soldiers and Asian women in several countries. Traditional treatment of the mixed ethnicity “outsider” is very shabby - not here and now, not today, but in traditional societies. My original point was the Confederate refugees who went to Brazil had to do a bit of mental heavy lifting to turn their backs on what they had been taught and intermarry, enthusiastically until their descendants look like a Benetton commercial, which I approve of completely.
*cringe* Okay, that guy just looks like an abomination. On the US soldier thing, it certainly doesn’t that many were just left there without their fathers. I’ll say this: I was in a relationship with an African-American woman who had a 12 year old son with a white father and she would break my heart with all the stories of how he was something of an outsider in school among the other black kids. Apparently one term for mixed kids is “yellow,” which I hadn’t heard before. I’m just grateful that it isn’t as much of a stigma as it used to be. At least things seem to be getting better with that Arc of the Universe bending towards justice and all that.
| 189 |
Four More Tears Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:35:12pm |
| 190 |
CuriousLurker Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:50:27pm |
re: #136 Jeff In Ohio
You can’t control where you come from.
My family fought on both sides and they all owned slaves. When we had a black cousin come to the family reuinio a couple of years ago, the descendants of the ones that fought for the Union (and were rewarded for it greatly) were the ones who were the most impolite. The descendants of the ones of fought for the Confederacy had her over for dinner, played music for her, danced with her, you no, made her feel like she was family.
You can control your own behavior.
I agree 100%. And I’m aware that things might have been different had my progenitors lived in the South, or if they’d lived in NY before slavery was abolished there, but the relief is there nonetheless.
Interesting how your family members reacted. I suspect a good deal of it had to do with family culture & values as it seems that each smaller group within the larger family “tribe” appears to have their own rules. That’s how things are in most families I know anyway.
Personally, I’ve encountered much less open hostility to my head covering here in the NYC area than I did back in my home state of TX. That’s not to say that it never happens up here (it does), or that everyone in the South is a bigot (they’re not). But still.
Looking back, I think a large part of it (in TX) was probably just lack of familiarity people who look “different”. I was constantly being gawked & pointed at in stores, restaurants, while driving, etc. No doubt a large percentage of it was just innocent curiosity, but the overt hostility happened often enough for me to call it a regular occurrence.
And I readily admit that during that time part of it was my inability, or perhaps unwillingness, to control my own reactions. I had managed to grow a rather large chip on my shoulder over the comments & staring and realized that things were going to get out of hand if I didn’t head for more diverse pastures—as a matter of fact they already had gotten very close to being out of hand a couple of time right before I left—so I skedaddled posthaste.
| 191 |
shiplord kirel Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:52:36pm |
re: #179 Gus 802
Removing dead Civil War soldiers - Image
Content warning.
A very sobering picture, but something people need to see if they are in any position to decide issues of war and peace (as all voters ultimately are). It reminds me of what is probably the most appalling scene I have ever witnessed with my own eyes. This was the burial of dead NVA regulars in a mass grave outside An Loc after the siege there had been broken in 1972. There were over a thousand bodies, policed up from the town and the surrounding area. Many of them had been dead for months. This might as well have been centuries in the Vietnamese climate except that their khaki rags and cheap boots had been preserved. Some were much more recent and many were horribly mangled. The smell was beyond my powers of description.
They weren’t just bulldozed into a hole but it was still a pretty callous procedure, with souvenir hunting (and worse) having to be discouraged at gunpoint. Intelligence types had the worst job, checking each body for documents, insignia, or anything else that might be of some value to them.
| 192 |
jamesfirecat Sun, Apr 11, 2010 1:57:31pm |
re: #160 sagehen
My favorite time travel series is Eric Flint’s 1632.
A small West Virginia town from the year 2000, complete with electric plant, a couple of machine shops, a well-stocked gun shop, library, small hospital, etc, is science-fictionally transplanted to the middle of Europe in 1632. The people immediately set out to make this timeline what they’d like it to be.
(maybe my favorite moment is when the town council decides they must immediately send a delegation to open trade relations with Turkey. “They’re the only people in the whole world with coffee!”).
F*** yes that is a great book and a great series!
That said, 1635 the Dreeson Incident left me feeling cold for the most part because too much about how things where going on Granetville when the rest of the plot had moved elsewhere…
| 194 |
Gus Sun, Apr 11, 2010 2:10:36pm |
re: #191 shiplord kirel
A very sobering picture, but something people need to see if they are in any position to decide issues of war and peace (as all voters ultimately are). It reminds me of what is probably the most appalling scene I have ever witnessed with my own eyes. This was the burial of dead NVA regulars in a mass grave outside An Loc after the siege there had been broken in 1972. There were over a thousand bodies, policed up from the town and the surrounding area. Many of them had been dead for months. This might as well have been centuries in the Vietnamese climate except that their khaki rags and cheap boots had been preserved. Some were much more recent and many were horribly mangled. The smell was beyond my powers of description.
They weren’t just bulldozed into a hole but it was still a pretty callous procedure, with souvenir hunting (and worse) having to be discouraged at gunpoint. Intelligence types had the worst job, checking each body for documents, insignia, or anything else that might be of some value to them.
The visual or photographic record provides us with a useful foundation in how we view conflicts such as the Civil War. The experience goes much deeper than laws, records, history and words. It provides us with a means of experiencing the visceral and the savage results of war and conflict when we view the record uncensored.
The Library of Congress has a good collection of Civil War photographs, circa 1861-1865.
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