Is Syria Supplying Hezbollah with Scud Missiles?

Middle East • Views: 3,456

If this report turns out to be accurate, it will be a very dangerous escalation in the Mideast conflict: Hezbollah probably has Scud missiles: US senator.

WASHINGTON — The Lebanese militant group Hezbollah has most likely acquired Scud missiles and improved its rocket-firing technology to the point of real danger for Israel, a top US senator warned Tuesday.

“I believe there is a likelihood that there are Scuds that Hezbollah has in Lebanon. A high likelihood,” Senate Intelligence Committee chair Dianne Feinstein, a Democrat from California, told AFP.

“The rockets and missiles in Lebanon are substantially increased and better technologically than they were and this is a real point of danger for Israel,” Feinstein added.

Ballistic missiles, even relatively crude ones like Scuds, would change the playing field in Lebanon and northern Israel, putting all of the major Israeli cities within reach of Hezbollah weapons. Israel has the military tools to take out Scud launching sites, but Hezbollah is well-known for locating missiles and other weaponry in civilian areas. If they follow this tradition with Scud missiles and a conflict breaks out, the death toll among the civilian population could be much worse than in the last Lebanon war — and to Hezbollah, this is not necessarily something to be avoided, because civilian deaths have great propaganda value for the terrorist group.

We’ll be watching to see if this report is confirmed.

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289 comments
1 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:21:22am

Can’t imagine living there. Dangerous world we live in.

Much more dangerous world they live in.

2 Political Atheist  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:22:09am

I am not one of these “the gov can see everything” guys. Satellites and all that has limitations. But SCUDS? That would seem to be a very tough challenge in the days of drones and all. Israel may be justified to have a rapid shoot on sight policy for missiles that big. I hope they do.

3 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:23:06am

Could you imagine if all this effort went into something worthwhile? The Middle East was once a place of learning. It could be again.

4 jamesfirecat  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:23:11am

re: #2 Rightwingconspirator

I am not one of these “the gov can see everything” guys. Satellites and all that has limitations. But SCUDS? That would seem to be a very tough challenge in the days of drones and all. Israel may be justified to have a rapid shoot on sight policy for missiles that big. I hope they do.

Doubtlessly better they get taken out in transet than after they’ve been surrounded by civilians.

5 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:23:43am

I pray for Special Forces right about now.

6 avanti  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:25:53am

Simple solution. Israel makes a statement that a attack using missiles supplied by Syria will be considered as a attack FROM Syria and they will pay the price.

7 lawhawk  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:26:09am

Sadly, the confirmation of this report may come not from the UN or the Lebanese government (Hizbullah is part of the governemnt) but after the Scuds are hitting Israeli towns and cities unless the US or Israelis find satellite imagery confirming the transfers and/or deployment of scuds in Lebanon. Hizbullah (and Hamas/Islamic Jihad/al Qaeda, etc.) have all been clamoring for longer range rockets and missiles to hit deeper into Israel because their prior best method of killing Israelis - the suicide bomber - is much more difficult to do these days because of the checkpoints and border security.

Hizbullah will keep those scuds under wraps until a time and place of their choosing (in coordination with Syria and Iran, their prime backers).

8 Locker  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:26:18am

It’s personal opinion but I’ve been on the wrong end of multiple SCUD attacks and they are nothing but a terror weapon. Anyone who claims this technology is for strictly military use are full of shit.

You can’t hit the broad side of a barn with a SCUD. Once it’s fired it they can go anywhere including the one that was fire at the Dammam port and landed in top of one of our barracks in Dhahran over 18 miles away.

9 lawhawk  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:27:26am

re: #6 avanti

That’s good as far as that goes, except that it’s all too likely that the Scuds were transferred to Hizbullah via Syria by Iran.

10 Kragar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:27:42am

This story has been devloping for several weeks. Israel accused Syria of it, and then received US confirmation that we were seeing it too. Some Israeli sources are now calling Hezballah a division of the Syrian Army.

11 Locker  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:27:54am

re: #8 Locker

It’s personal opinion but I’ve been on the wrong end of multiple SCUD attacks and they are nothing but a terror weapon. Anyone who claims this technology is for strictly military use are full of shit.

You can’t hit the broad side of a barn with a SCUD. Once it’s fired it they can go anywhere including the one that was fire at the Dammam port and landed in top of one of our barracks in Dhahran over 18 miles away.

Just as a comparison, the MLRS system which I mentioned in an earlier thread can hit a football (yes, a football) at 35 miles. Saw it happen myself at White Sands and this is a system which is unguided. Aimed by Long, lat and elevation.

12 Spider Mensch  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:28:12am

now for some good news if you live in Israel of if you have friends and family there…there is a missle defense system partially operational and ready to go full operational that is at the forefront of missle defense. Obviously this is not going to be broadcast in full disclosure by any news media or anytype of website…but there is. believe me on this.

13 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:28:19am

re: #3 EmmmieG

Could you imagine if all this effort went into something worthwhile? The Middle East was once a place of learning. It could be again.

Updinged for sharing a common hope. Unfortunately, we are a looooooong way off from that now. What can people even do to support bringing moderate Islam into a position where it can marginalize the radicals? It seems like a sisyphusian task. Build a moderate Islamic school, and the crazies will just blow it up. Try to create open markets where people can exchange culture more freely, and they become targets.

The middle east is beyond depressing.

14 Political Atheist  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:28:31am

re: #4 jamesfirecat

Well if the report is right it’s too late for that. But hell yeah, seize them on the road or strike them. Just leave enough pieces to prove it.

15 Locker  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:29:02am

re: #12 Spider Mensch

now for some good news if you live in Israel of if you have friends and family there…there is a missle defense system partially operational and ready to go full operational that is at the forefront of missle defense. Obviously this is not going to be broadcast in full disclosure by any news media or anytype of website…but there is. believe me on this.

I hope we didn’t pawn that POS Patriot off on them. Didn’t do much for us vs SCUDs.

16 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:29:57am

I think these will be found, destroyed and we will never hear the story. Or just my hope.

17 Kragar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:30:00am

re: #15 Locker

I hope we didn’t pawn that POS Patriot off on them. Didn’t do much for us vs SCUDs.

They’ve been developing their own system for several years now.

18 Spider Mensch  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:30:31am

re: #15 Locker

I hope we didn’t pawn that POS Patriot off on them. Didn’t do much for us vs SCUDs.


I said forefront of missle defense, as in new technology..makes the partriot system akin to shooting rubber bands at a fly…

19 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:30:33am

re: #13 Fozzie Bear

sisyphusian

Really? I’m monosyllabic.

20 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:30:55am

Get a load of this statement by Feinstein, though:

“There’s only one thing that’s going to solve it, and that’s a two-state solution.”

Really?

There are reasons to support two states, but does Feinstein actually believe that Hezbollah and Syria would just pack up the Scud missiles and put them in storage if the Palestinians had a state?

Good grief. That’s the kind of reality-denial that keeps this conflict going. It’s not about “two states,” and it never has been.

21 lawhawk  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:31:03am

re: #12 Spider Mensch

You’re referring to the Iron Dome system, which is part of Israel’s layered defense system that also incorporates Patriot systems. Iron Dome was designed to thwart rockets and mortars, and had some limited success against the Gaza weapons fire because it requires several seconds to acquire and hit targets. When you’re dealing with short range weapons, those seconds aren’t there.

22 Political Atheist  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:31:36am

We do have patriot batteries in Israel. Maybe we can stop them fast enough, and have them dead to rights on the launch. Zero casualties facilitates a cease fire, massive casualties means another big war.

23 DaddyG  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:31:50am

re: #15 Locker

I hope we didn’t pawn that POS Patriot off on them. Didn’t do much for us vs SCUDs.

Don’t worry - if we did they always fix our stuff before deploying it anyway.

24 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:31:57am

I remember reading about this last week. Hezbollah will no doubt hide the SCUDS in civilian areas, as it’s a common tactic used by these thugs. As usual, I can only hope that if the report is true, Israel will act swiftly to destroy the weapons. If Lebanese civilians die because of where the SCUDS are hidden, so be it. The blood will be on the hands of Hezbollah, but par for the course, Israel will be blamed for engaging in self-defense.

25 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:32:50am

re: #20 Charles

Get a load of this statement by Feinstein, though:

Really?

There are reasons to support two states, but does Feinstein actually believe that Hezbollah and Syria would just pack up the Scud missiles and put them in storage if the Palestinians had a state?

Good grief. That’s the kind of reality-denial that keeps this conflict going. It’s not about two states, and it never has been.

Is your name now Charlesbuzzkill? That is the solution.. Eh.
//

26 MandyManners  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:33:03am

Whatever happened to UN Resolution 1701?

The summoning by the United States of Syrian Deputy Chief of Mission Zouheir Jabbour for a review of Syrian arms transfers to Hizbullah is the latest evidence of the serious basis to the recent tensions in the north.

Syria has continued to deny recent reports suggesting that it permitted the transfer of Scud-D ballistic missiles to Hizbullah.

But the issue of the Scuds is only a significant detail within a larger picture, which has been emerging into clear view since August 2006. This is the reality in which UN Security Council Resolution 1701, which ended the war between Israel and Hizbullah in 2006, has been turned into a dead letter by the “resistance bloc” of Iran, Syria and Hizbullah.

It is worth recalling that Resolution 1701 was hailed as a significant achievement for diplomacy at the time. The resolution was supposed to strengthen the basis for the renewed Lebanese sovereignty that seemed possible after Syrian withdrawal in 2005.

Its provisions are quite clear. The resolution calls for the disarmament of all armed groups in Lebanon, so that… there will be no weapons or authority in Lebanon other than that of the Lebanese state.” It also explicitly prohibits “sales or supply of arms and related materiel to Lebanon except as authorized by its government.”

Hizbullah and its backers calculated, correctly, that neither the government of Lebanon, nor the United Nations, nor the “international community” would be able or willing to enforce these clauses.

The UN has itself admitted the severe inadequacy of arrangements along the Syrian-Lebanese border. Two UN border assessments have been carried out since 2006 – in June 2007 and August 2008.

The second report found, in the dry language employed by such documents, that “even taking into account the difficult political situation in Lebanon during the past year,” progress toward achieving the goals laid out in Resolution 1701 had been “insufficient.”

SNIP

27 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:33:21am

SCUM supplying SCUDs.

28 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:33:42am
“There’s only one thing that’s going to solve it, and that’s a two-state solution.”

WTF does this even mean in the context of the report???

29 Kragar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:34:21am

re: #20 Charles

Get a load of this statement by Feinstein, though:

Really?

There are reasons to support two states, but does Feinstein actually believe that Hezbollah and Syria would just pack up the Scud missiles and put them in storage if the Palestinians had a state?

Good grief. That’s the kind of reality-denial that keeps this conflict going. It’s not about “two states,” and it never has been.

A two state solution could have been achieved decades ago if there was any serious effort to make it happen in the Arab world.

30 lawhawk  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:34:41am

re: #20 Charles

Hizbullah was originally formed out of Israel’s occupation of Southern Lebanon. Israel withdrew - and the UN certified it as having withdrawn in 2005. Hizbullah still exists, now claiming that Israel occupies Sheeba Farms, which Israel says was won from Syria. But the crux is that Hizbullah opposes Israel’s existence.

So does Hamas.

So does Fatah.

It’s all part of the ongoing triangle offense against Israel - using various terror factions to play bad-cop/worse cop with Israel to instigate and perpetuate the conflict, and most Palestinians are okay with this state of affairs, even when it means that they don’t get a state - or acceptance anywhere in the region.

31 DaddyG  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:35:29am

re: #29 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

A two state solution could have been achieved decades ago if there was any serious effort to make it happen in the Arab world.

You could call the current manipulations the “two state two step”.

32 MandyManners  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:35:33am

Israel’s getting it’s butt kicked in diplomatic circles over some real estate.

33 Spider Mensch  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:35:34am

re: #21 lawhawk

You’re referring to the Iron Dome system, which is part of Israel’s layered defense system that also incorporates Patriot systems. Iron Dome was designed to thwart rockets and mortars, and had some limited success against the Gaza weapons fire because it requires several seconds to acquire and hit targets. When you’re dealing with short range weapons, those seconds aren’t there.


there something else, in the works, so to speak..it was mentioned by a friend of mine in the IDF, but she really wasn’t at liberty to go into it, for obvious reasons. She’s fairly well up the chain of command, so I lean more to taking her word that something a bit top secret that isn’t being talked about is ready to go operational.grain of salt? well…maybe…but I know her and she is not a BS’er.

34 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:35:38am

re: #20 Charles
There’s a flipside to a two-state solution.

If the “second” state (i.e., what would be known as Palestine) decided to become aggressive, Israel would no longer have to treat the problem like it was a civilian problem.

I.e., attacks could be considered acts of war, rather than acts of terrorism.

(This is me playing devil’s advocate, for the purposes of discussion. I’m curious what people think about the two state ‘solution’, given the implications militarily. I.e., would it make a difference if it were a “state” attacking rather than just “militants”?)

35 Buck  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:35:59am

re: #20 Charles

Get a load of this statement by Feinstein, though:

Really?

There are reasons to support two states, but does Feinstein actually believe that Hezbollah and Syria would just pack up the Scud missiles and put them in storage if the Palestinians had a state?

Good grief. That’s the kind of reality-denial that keeps this conflict going. It’s not about “two states,” and it never has been.

I think she means Palestine and Lebanon…. two states

36 Charles Johnson  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:36:49am

re: #35 Buck

I think she means Palestine and Lebanon… two states

Feinstein is actually a very solid supporter of Israel.

37 MandyManners  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:36:51am

Israel has delivered a secret warning to Syrian President Bashar Assad that it will respond to missile attacks from Hezbollah, the militant Lebanese-based Islamist group, by launching immediate retaliation against Syria itself.

In a message, sent earlier this month, Israel made it clear that it now regards Hezbollah as a division of the Syrian army and that reprisals against Syria will be fast and devastating.

It follows the discovery by Israeli intelligence that Syria has recently supplied long-range ballistic missiles and advanced anti-aircraft systems to Hezbollah.

“We’ll return Syria to the Stone Age by crippling its power stations, ports, fuel storage and every bit of strategic infrastructure if Hezbollah dare to launch ballistic missiles against us,” said an Israeli minister, who who was speaking off-the-record, last week.

The warning, which was conveyed to Damascus by a third party, was sent to reinforce an earlier signal by Avigdor Lieberman, the Israeli foreign minister. “If a war breaks out the Assad dynasty will lose its power and will cease to reign in Syria,” he said earlier this year.

The Israeli decision to hold Syria directly responsible for Hezbollah’s actions is believed to be the result of intelligence assessments that Beirut has lost control of the Shi’ite organisation, which has become an increasingly powerful force in Lebanon.

Reports that Syria has supplied Hezbollah with Russian-made Scud ballistic missiles have alarmed Israeli ministers. The missiles have the potential to reach the entire country and could carry chemical warheads. New gas masks are being supplied to Israel’s entire population, with an intensive television advertising campaign underway to stress their importance.

SNIP

38 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:36:54am

re: #20 Charles

Get a load of this statement by Feinstein, though:

Really?

There are reasons to support two states, but does Feinstein actually believe that Hezbollah and Syria would just pack up the Scud missiles and put them in storage if the Palestinians had a state?

Good grief. That’s the kind of reality-denial that keeps this conflict going. It’s not about “two states,” and it never has been.

Feinstein is painfully ignorant. As things are now, a bordering “Palestinian” state will only serve as a launching pad (literally) for greater attacks upon Israel. This is why the IDF continues its hold on the West Bank. A 2 state solution is just another buzzword used to distract from the reality at hand: Israel’s neighbors wants the young state destroyed, the Jews obliterated. Fuck the two state solution. Especially with Hezbollah, Hamas, Fatah, that Martyrs Brigade, etc., still in full operation.

39 Bubblehead II  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:37:39am

re: #17 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Iron Dome

40 Ericus58  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:38:38am

Israel Air and Navy Forces Showcase in Honor of Israel’s 62nd Independence Day

Youtube Video

It may be time to kick the tires and light the fires…

41 jamesfirecat  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:39:00am

re: #34 Fozzie Bear

There’s a flipside to a two-state solution.

If the “second” state (i.e., what would be known as Palestine) decided to become aggressive, Israel would no longer have to treat the problem like it was a civilian problem.

I.e., attacks could be considered acts of war, rather than acts of terrorism.

(This is me playing devil’s advocate, for the purposes of discussion. I’m curious what people think about the two state ‘solution’, given the implications militarily. I.e., would it make a difference if it were a “state” attacking rather than just “militants”?)

The problem with that idea (which I do like) is that what happens after you get an act of war and Israel pounds the second state into paste? Either it has to annex them and then we’ve got the same problem we started with don’t we, or it leaves them alone to simmer in their resentment and try again if there are other possible alternatives I’m all ears…

42 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:39:20am

re: #20 Charles

Get a load of this statement by Feinstein, though:

Really?

There are reasons to support two states, but does Feinstein actually believe that Hezbollah and Syria would just pack up the Scud missiles and put them in storage if the Palestinians had a state?

Good grief. That’s the kind of reality-denial that keeps this conflict going. It’s not about “two states,” and it never has been.

I don’t understand what a 2 state solution means anymore. Hamas has Gaza. Is that not their state? There are no Jews there now. So what is it? Fatah is in East Jerusalem. They don’t have a state, but communities speckled throughout. So what does it mean, 3 state? Or they gonna put Hamas and Fatah together? (not a bad idea, they can kill each other and do us all a favor). We can leave Jordan or Egypt out of this at this point because that’s a lost cause.

There has to be a state for “them” whomever “they” are (Hamas? Fatah?). It really is the only solution. The trouble is that it’s a non-solution because they’ll have none of it. So I’m confused.

Bibi isn’t going to let anyone launch scud missiles into Israel without major retribution.

43 McSpiff  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:39:31am

Scuds? Fuck that. Level’em. I know what locker says is true, they’re antiques. Based off V-2 kina stuff. But it’s a clear escalation by Syria and Hez, and should be responded to in kind. No need to see Israeli cities held hostage anymore than they already are.

44 lawhawk  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:39:56am

re: #38 eclectic infidel

The IDF maintains a presence in the West Bank, but most of the West Bank is civilly administered by the Palestinian Authority - much of the West Bank is a no-go zone for Israelis under the Oslo Accords and followup agreements (Gaza/Jericho, Wye, etc.) The IDF does conduct security operations and checkpoints, but the situation is more nuanced than Israel maintaining a military presence there.

45 MJ  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:40:46am

From yesterday’s State Dept briefing:

QUESTION: I want to ask about this meeting with the Syrian yesterday. Does the U.S. have evidence or reason to believe that Syria has, in fact, transferred SCUDs to Hezbollah?

MR. CROWLEY: Let me put the meeting in context and then answer your question. There had recently been a statement by the Syrian ambassador to the United States that we have not raised this issue. In fact, we have raised this issue multiple times going back to February. So yesterday evening, we did call in the DCM of the Embassy here just to make sure that he understood that we take this issue very seriously and to remove any doubt about the concern that we have and how important we think it is to the region. And so that was the context within which the meeting last night took place, and we will continue to have these ongoing discussions with Syria about this issue.

We are still looking into it. We haven’t reached any particular judgment at this point as to whether any transfer has taken place. But we made it clear both today, last night, and in other meetings that this is something that we have great concern about. It is a violation, prospectively, of UN Security Council Resolution 1701 in terms of weaponry, advanced weaponry, coming into Lebanon. That is the province, rightfully of the Government of Lebanon, and that under 1701 only the Government of Lebanon is permitted to bring in weapons of this kind.

QUESTION: Well, what was the – if you don’t know or you don’t have evidence or reason to believe that there’s been such transfers, why have all these meetings? Why are you raising it?

MR. CROWLEY: Well, we’re raising it because we’ve seen reporting on it and we are studying it closely. But the proximate reason for the meeting last night was expressly because there have been some direct suggest – public comments by the Syrian ambassador to the United States that we hadn’t raised this issue. And we had raised it, but we want to make sure that they understood completely that, in fact, this is an issue of great concern to the United States.

QUESTION: P.J.?

MR. CROWLEY: Go ahead.

QUESTION: The Syrian Government has denied today the accusation —

MR. CROWLEY: I understand that, but at least now they cannot say that we haven’t raised this issue.


[Link: www.state.gov…]

46 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:40:48am

Gamesmanship, Brinkmanship, I just hope that Syria and Hezbollah understands that Israel plays to win, otherwise there won’t be much of Syria or Lebanon left. Israel won’t hesitate to bomb targets in civilian areas, and Israel has never shown itself to be shy about advocating a Total War theory in defense of their country.

What I suspect is happening here is more a cold war type deal, where the combats will continue at a relatively low intensity with Iran and Syria funding proxies and trying to reach a point where the MAD theory applies so they’re safer from Israeli retaliation.

The problem here, Israel doesn’t have effective proxies to respond with, leaving it no choice but to respond as a personal actor against Syria and/or Iran. Which, through no fault of Israel’s, makes it look more like an aggressor. and I suspect if a significant event happen, Israel won’t be afraid to dare Iran or Syria to retaliate and make significant strikes into their country, world opinion be damned.

47 darthstar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:41:22am

Military action is not the answer. Honestly, I have no idea what the answer is, but I do believe that military action isn’t it. That strategy has been used for how many years now, and how successful has it been?

48 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:41:34am

re: #35 Buck

I think she means Palestine and Lebanon… two states

Two state solution commonly means one for the Jews (Israel) and one for the Arabs (Palestine assuming).

49 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:41:58am

re: #47 darthstar

Military action is not the answer. Honestly, I have no idea what the answer is, but I do believe that military action isn’t it. That strategy has been used for how many years now, and how successful has it been?

Disagree. The SCUDs must be taken out.

50 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:42:10am

We need to let Israel do their thing and tell the UN to shut the fuck up. Two cents.

51 MandyManners  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:43:06am

Yallah ya, Nasrallah.

Youtube Video
52 lawhawk  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:43:38am

re: #42 marjoriemoon

Indeed - at the moment we have what would be considered a 3-state solution; Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank. Gaza is wholly owned and occupied by Hamas. Fatah runs most of the West Bank through the Palestinian Authority (after refusing to share power with Hamas, which won the last scheduled elections and has thereafter refused to hold new elections or broker a deal between Fatah and Hamas on control over Gaza and the West Bank now controlled by the PA). Fatah is satisfied with the current situation since they can blame any failings on Hamas or Israel, while avoiding the generally tough business of running a country. Hamas, likewise can blame Israel and Fatah for running Gaza into the ground and continues to sound the drums of war at every opportunity because there is no expectation that they act like a state or feel the repercussions of continued terror attacks/kassams/plots, etc.

53 darthstar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:44:07am

re: #49 Varek Raith

Disagree. The SCUDs must be taken out.

Once they’re confirmed, yes. Right now it’s only a “strong belief” that they may have them.

54 MandyManners  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:44:13am

re: #47 darthstar

Military action is not the answer. Honestly, I have no idea what the answer is, but I do believe that military action isn’t it. That strategy has been used for how many years now, and how successful has it been?

WTF? Another UN resolution? They’ve yet to abide by 1701.

A strongly worded letter?

Should the Israelis say “pretty please”?

55 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:44:33am

re: #47 darthstar

Military action is not the answer. Honestly, I have no idea what the answer is, but I do believe that military action isn’t it. That strategy has been used for how many years now, and how successful has it been?

I tend to agree, but then that begs the unanswerable question. What else can Israel do? (I don’t pretend to even have the faintest idea frankly.)

The situation is one that has no solution that I can think of that isn’t horrifying.

56 cliffster  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:45:12am

Good grief. Signs point to the fact that there’s some shit about to go down in the world. I’ve had a bad feeling for months now.

57 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:46:59am

re: #56 cliffster

Good grief. Signs point to the fact that there’s some shit about to go down in the world. I’ve had a bad feeling for months now.

And it ain’t the Amish, my friend.

58 MandyManners  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:46:59am

re: #52 lawhawk

Ma’an News is reporting that Abbas is pretty sick. Have you read anything about it?

59 jamesfirecat  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:47:34am

re: #55 Fozzie Bear

I tend to agree, but then that begs the unanswerable question. What else can Israel do? (I don’t pretend to even have the faintest idea frankly.)

The situation is one that has no solution that I can think of that isn’t horrifying.

At the risk of making people waste the rest of their days…


Hopless War

[Link: tvtropes.org…]

“The Arab Israeli Conflict, for both sides. The idea that Israel could ever be decisively defeated militarily is laughable, the fate of the Gaza strip is a prime example. On the other hand, Israel can not maintain the current status quo forever, Jewish birth rates are far lower than Muslims, the ‘Demographic Bomb’ [Link: en.wikipedia.org…] that Right Wing politicians have warned about is very real, by 2050, Jews will be a minority in their own land, from then Israel will truly feel besieged. The obvious solution is of course, an end to the conflict - the ‘Two State Solution’, but that has been a Hopeless War all in by itself.”

60 darthstar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:49:13am

re: #56 cliffster

Good grief. Signs point to the fact that there’s some shit about to go down in the world. I’ve had a bad feeling for months now.

This shit’s been building up for decades. Hopefully calmer heads will prevail, but it sounds like the hawks on both sides are itching for a fight.

61 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:50:59am

re: #52 lawhawk

Indeed - at the moment we have what would be considered a 3-state solution; Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank. Gaza is wholly owned and occupied by Hamas. Fatah runs most of the West Bank through the Palestinian Authority (after refusing to share power with Hamas, which won the last scheduled elections and has thereafter refused to hold new elections or broker a deal between Fatah and Hamas on control over Gaza and the West Bank now controlled by the PA). Fatah is satisfied with the current situation since they can blame any failings on Hamas or Israel, while avoiding the generally tough business of running a country. Hamas, likewise can blame Israel and Fatah for running Gaza into the ground and continues to sound the drums of war at every opportunity because there is no expectation that they act like a state or feel the repercussions of continued terror attacks/kassams/plots, etc.

I say give them Uganda! It was good enough to be considered for us at one time!!

Why doesn’t anyone MAKE them make Gaza a state? Basically, F* you. You have it. Claim it. Oh I know why they won’t. They’d be in a worse position (in their own minds) if they had to have the responsibility of their own country. They’d have to straighten up and fly right. I’m saying, make the decision for them. Make them have it and make them own up to it.

Well you know, if I were Queen :)

Of course you’re right. Hamas will continue to blame everyone for their problems, despite the fact that they sit on one of THE choicest pieces of real estate in the entire world… whatever… I always feel like a broken record with this.

62 McSpiff  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:51:51am

Why are we even talking about the Palis? I don’t care if its the Knights of Columbus moving Scuds in next to Israel….they simply can’t be there. Thats the end of. This is a very short term problem with a very obvious solution.

63 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:52:27am

re: #60 darthstar

This shit’s been building up for decades. Hopefully calmer heads will prevail, but it sounds like the hawks on both sides are itching for a fight.

If the ‘Freedom Fighters” (those who oppress women, hide behind women and children) would come out and fight, it could be over sooner.

64 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:52:27am

re: #47 darthstar

Military action is not the answer. Honestly, I have no idea what the answer is, but I do believe that military action isn’t it. That strategy has been used for how many years now, and how successful has it been?

Perhaps out of the kindness of their hearts, Hezbollah leadership will hand over all their weapons to Israel, and will acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist. Then Hamas, touched by the actions of their fellow terrorists, will do the same, and all the other thugs will follow suit. Finally, the many Arab nations will open their arms and allow Jews back into their once native homes will full citizenship and full rights under their laws.

/

Seriously, if Israel doesn’t defend herself, no one will.

65 MJ  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:53:08am

re: #20 Charles

Get a load of this statement by Feinstein, though:

Really?

There are reasons to support two states, but does Feinstein actually believe that Hezbollah and Syria would just pack up the Scud missiles and put them in storage if the Palestinians had a state?

Good grief. That’s the kind of reality-denial that keeps this conflict going. It’s not about “two states,” and it never has been.

Feinstein isn’t saying anything much different than this administration’s State Department keeps saying. Again, from yesterday’s State Dept. briefing discussing the possible transfer of missiles from Syria to Hizballah:

QUESTION: Any reaction to the statement made by the minister or high official – Israeli official that they would bomb Syria, bring it to the – back to the Stone Age. I mean do you see provocative action or a threat by Israel through such a statement by high official talking to a British newspaper, issuing such a threat when Israel has 200 nuclear bomb and none of the Arab countries has any?

MR. CROWLEY: Again, I sense an escalation in our questions here. Look, one of the reasons why we came into office committed to pursue Middle East peace in all of its tracks, not just between Israelis and Palestinians, but Israelis and Lebanese, Israelis and Syrians, is because we recognize that armed conflict will not solve the broader conflict, that this can only be done through a negotiated settlement, a comprehensive settlement. That’s why we’re pursuing this as aggressively as we are.

Nearly all of the reporters who cover the State Dept are blatantly anti-Israel- especially Matt Lee who writes for the AP.
Here we see a reporter trying to equate the arming of Hizballah with scud missiles with some report by some Israeli minister in an English newspaper.

66 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:53:13am

So what, really, are Israel’s options? I mean the total set of options, including bad ideas.

- Genocide (not good)
- Two-state, possibly followed by genocide (also not good)
- Continued brinkmanship (the default)
- Moving Israel out of the ME (I don’t see this one flying with anyone, and to where?)
- Forcibly moving the Palestinians somewhere else (also not going to fly)
- ??

I can’t think of a single option that wouldn’t result in a worse situation than currently exists. Then again, this isn’t an area I know a hell of alot about, and I freely admit that.

67 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:53:30am

re: #62 McSpiff

Does the word “BOOM!” factor into your solution?

68 flexthink  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:53:35am

Well, at least we know that if push comes to shove then Obama will blame Israel and impose sanctions on it so that he can show support for his closest ally - Syria and Iran.

69 Ericus58  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:53:40am

re: #60 darthstar

This shit’s been building up for decades. Hopefully calmer heads will prevail, but it sounds like the hawks on both sides are itching for a fight.

I’m sorry, but Darth your naive outlook concerning the Israeli-Arab issue and the conflicts that have taken place in the region for decades is wearing thin.

And as far as “hawks on both sides”…. please tell me then just who are the “Doves” on the Arab side? Who is pushing and trying to make real peace from the Palestinians toward Israel?

71 shiplord kirel  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:53:55am

A little background from your local steely-eyed missileman.

Scud (Makayev R-11 and R-17 Aerofan) has been well known to the public only since the Persian Gulf war in 1991, but it had been around for many years before that. The design was orignally based on the German Wasserfall experimental surface-to-air missile of the World War 2 era . This, in turn, was essentially a scaled down V-2. The R-11 project originated in 1951 and the missile was operational by 1958. In effect, it is a storable propellant equivalent of the V-2 in range and general performance. It was deployed as the primary nuclear strike element of Soviet field armies.

The R-17s used in the Gulf War had been modified to achieve much greater range at the expense of payload and accuracy, with warheads of around 150 kg. At the designed range of 300 km or less, the warhead can be as large as 1000 Kg. Accuracy would also be better, but still nothing to brag about. Scud attacks from Syria or Lebanon against Israel would therefore be much more destructive than those launched from Iraq in 1991.

72 lawhawk  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:54:04am

re: #58 MandyManners

Ynet and Jpost had similar reports over the past few days that Abbas had been getting medical treatment for an undisclosed ailment.

If that isn’t bad enough, there are also hints that the situation in Egypt isn’t all that great either. Mubarak just had surgery for an undisclosed ailment. No one knows whether Mubarak will run again, and who might replace him (he hasn’t named a successor/VP), and when elections are carried out, one of the names being bandied about is ElBaraedi (formerly of the IAEA), and he’s got the support of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Yes, that’s right - the Muslim Brotherhood. While Mubarak has outlawed the group, it operates under other names and guises (if the Brotherhood didn’t exist, Mubarak would have to create it to maintain his security apparatus).

But most opposition groups are far less threatening. Indeed, the great paradox of the Egyptian police state lies in its long record cultivating a certain level of tame extremism—which it finds useful to justify its police tactics—while it crushes passionate moderation. It’s a cliché of Egyptian political commentary that if Mubarak did not have the Muslim Brotherhood to oppose him, he’d have to invent it. And ElBaradei has walked right into the middle of this political twilight zone.

The Mubarak government allows about 90 members of the “outlawed” Brotherhood to serve as “independents” in Parliament, where, with 20 percent of the votes, they make up the single largest opposition group. The Brotherhood, for its part, plays any angle it can, and has glommed onto the strongly secular ElBaradei. “I didn’t know a single Muslim Brother until I came [back] here. But the head of the Brothers’ parliamentary faction, Mohamed Saad el-Katatni, has come to my house a couple of times,” says ElBaradei, who adds that he was reassured when el-Katatni declared, “We are for a civil state, we are for democracy.”

Of course, that’s in contrast with Zawahiri, who was involved in the Sadat assassination and rose to become the number 2 in al Qaeda.

73 McSpiff  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:54:44am

re: #67 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Does the word “BOOM!” factor into your solution?

Well, it can include marshmallows if that helps anyone’s sensitivities…

74 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:55:16am

re: #46 bloodstar

Gamesmanship, Brinkmanship, I just hope that Syria and Hezbollah understands that Israel plays to win, otherwise there won’t be much of Syria or Lebanon left. Israel won’t hesitate to bomb targets in civilian areas, and Israel has never shown itself to be shy about advocating a Total War theory in defense of their country.

What I suspect is happening here is more a cold war type deal, where the combats will continue at a relatively low intensity with Iran and Syria funding proxies and trying to reach a point where the MAD theory applies so they’re safer from Israeli retaliation.

The problem here, Israel doesn’t have effective proxies to respond with, leaving it no choice but to respond as a personal actor against Syria and/or Iran. Which, through no fault of Israel’s, makes it look more like an aggressor. and I suspect if a significant event happen, Israel won’t be afraid to dare Iran or Syria to retaliate and make significant strikes into their country, world opinion be damned.

Better with Bibi than Olmert at any rate. Israel always been a lone player pretty much, except for our support.

75 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:55:25am

re: #68 flexthink

I read that three times. Did you just say that our President’s closest ally is Syria and Iran?

76 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:55:30am

re: #68 flexthink

Well, at least we know that if push comes to shove then Obama will blame Israel and impose sanctions on it so that he can show support for his closest ally - Syria and Iran.

Oh, please.

77 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:56:01am

re: #75 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I read that three times. Did you just say that our President’s closest ally is Syria and Iran?

GAZE is your friend.

78 McSpiff  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:56:33am

re: #68 flexthink

Hey, they were asking about that chip in your ass down in Georgia, any updates?

79 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:56:43am

re: #77 Cannadian Club Akbar

That was dumb.

80 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:56:58am

re: #78 McSpiff

(snicker)

81 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:59:06am

re: #68 flexthink

16 comments… Four years…

Do me a favor… keep the average about where it is.

82 Varek Raith  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:59:10am

BBT

83 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:00:22am

re: #81 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

16 comments… Four years…

Do me a favor… keep the average about where it is.

What do want to oppress me man!!
//

84 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:00:41am

re: #65 MJ

Nearly all of the reporters who cover the State Dept are blatantly anti-Israel- especially Matt Lee who writes for the AP.
Here we see a reporter trying to equate the arming of Hizballah with scud missiles with some report by some Israeli minister in an English newspaper.

I’m not really following that. I’d have to read more of it. Basically, what I’m reading “Armed conflict won’t solve this.” Oh hell ya it will, it’s just that lots have to die and Israel doesn’t want that. Meanwhile, all the Arabs have to offer is armed conflict.

Peace talks will solve it. So then the question is with who. what’s on the table, and are the Arabs going to comply by not attacking Israel?

And back we go to square one.

85 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:00:51am

re: #78 McSpiff

yeah they have the doll so you can show them where they implanted it.

86 Buck  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:00:53am

re: #48 marjoriemoon

Two state solution commonly means one for the Jews (Israel) and one for the Arabs (Palestine assuming).

I was just kidding… I know what the two state solution is. Of course the actual two state solution has (as Charles points out) nothing to do with Hezbollah getting scuds from IRAN through Syria. (I think everyone knows that Syria and Hezbollah would never do anything like this without Iran.)

The only way a two state solution would mean that Iran (and Syria and Hezbollah) would not feel the need to use scuds would be if Israel is not one of the two states.

Yes I know if you have to explain the joke, it wasn’t a very good joke.

87 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:00:58am

re: #83 Cannadian Club Akbar

Okay, I read that three times too.

What?

88 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:01:36am

re: #86 Buck

I thought it was a good joke.

89 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:02:06am

re: #85 Dreggas

I meant the “you” as the other guy, not you McSpiff.

90 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:02:07am

re: #66 Fozzie Bear

It’s frustrating. The only other option is if the main terrorist groups decide not to terrorize Israel anymore and instead embark on a path of disarming and ending hostilities. Only then can the PA have a sit down with Israel to discuss peaceful relations. As it stands now, only Israel wants peace. And it sucks, because I honestly believe that Palestinians would do so well if they could move around freely, to find better jobs, more opportunities for education, and to simply improve their quality of life. I’m not anti-Palestinian.

91 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:02:19am

My radio just said Rothlessberger is suspended by the NFL. Didn’t hear how long.

92 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:02:59am

re: #91 Cannadian Club Akbar

My radio just said Rothlessberger is suspended by the NFL. Didn’t hear how long.

Your radio can talk?! Holy shit!

93 cliffster  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:03:05am

re: #91 Cannadian Club Akbar

My radio just said Rothlessberger is suspended by the NFL. Didn’t hear how long.

six games

94 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:03:14am

re: #91 Cannadian Club Akbar

6 games.

95 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:03:15am

re: #66 Fozzie Bear

So what, really, are Israel’s options? I mean the total set of options, including bad ideas.

- Genocide (not good)
- Two-state, possibly followed by genocide (also not good)
- Continued brinkmanship (the default)
- Moving Israel out of the ME (I don’t see this one flying with anyone, and to where?)
- Forcibly moving the Palestinians somewhere else (also not going to fly)
- ??

I can’t think of a single option that wouldn’t result in a worse situation than currently exists. Then again, this isn’t an area I know a hell of alot about, and I freely admit that.

Nothing there is an option except 2 state. Or 3 state or 4 state, or whatever.

I can see you’re not that familiar :) none of your other options have ever, nor will ever be put on the table.

96 Bubblehead II  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:03:52am

re: #68 flexthink

Karma: -1


flexthink
(Logged in)
Registered since: Aug 13, 2006 at 2:40 pm
No. of comments posted: 16
No. of links posted: 17

Is there any left over troll glaze from yesterday?

97 McSpiff  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:04:08am

You know, putting on my “Think-like-a-terrorist” hat, I still don’t get it. Why waste the cash on Scuds? If I was going to go toe-to-toe with Israel, I’d want small, man portable anti-tank and anti-air weapons. If I was going for anything bigger of the same vintage, I’d want some Russian 23mm gear, not freakin Scuds. These guys really aren’t all that bright…

98 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:04:26am

re: #92 Mad Al-Jaffee

Your radio can talk?! Holy shit!

My lamp is full of shit.
/

99 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:04:44am

re: #77 Cannadian Club Akbar

GAZE is your friend.

I’m not much of a downdinger, but when I do, I enjoy it!

100 darthstar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:05:12am

re: #68 flexthink

Well, at least we know that if push comes to shove then Obama will blame Israel and impose sanctions on it so that he can show support for his closest ally - Syria and Iran.

That’s some stupid shit you said there.

101 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:05:15am

re: #98 Cannadian Club Akbar

My lamp is full of shit.
/

My toaster only knows Morse code. And my hovercraft is full of eels.

102 McSpiff  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:05:21am

re: #89 Dreggas

I meant the “you” as the other guy, not you McSpiff.

Puts pants back on slowly

Yup…Yup, I knew that.

103 cliffster  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:05:22am

re: #99 marjoriemoon

I’m not much of a downdinger, but when I do, I enjoy it!

I THEE DOWNDING!!!

104 jamesfirecat  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:05:58am

re: #101 Mad Al-Jaffee

My toaster only knows Morse code. And my hovercraft is full of eels.

I will not buy this tobacconists, it is scratched!

105 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:06:15am

re: #101 Mad Al-Jaffee

My toaster only knows Morse code. And my hovercraft is full of eels.

LMAO. Needed a repost.

106 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:06:30am

That was the fastest -15 I’ve ever seen.

107 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:07:00am

re: #86 Buck

I was just kidding… I know what the two state solution is. Of course the actual two state solution has (as Charles points out) nothing to do with Hezbollah getting scuds from IRAN through Syria. (I think everyone knows that Syria and Hezbollah would never do anything like this without Iran.)

The only way a two state solution would mean that Iran (and Syria and Hezbollah) would not feel the need to use scuds would be if Israel is not one of the two states.

Yes I know if you have to explain the joke, it wasn’t a very good joke.

Oh sorry. Forgot to laugh, as they say! I don’t mean to be rude, but I didn’t follow much of what you said there.

108 Buck  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:07:16am

re: #88 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I thought it was a good joke.

Thank you, certainly better than #68 flexthink’s attempt at humor…

109 Skeetghazi  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:08:03am

re: #91 Cannadian Club Akbar

My radio just said Rothlessberger is suspended by the NFL. Didn’t hear how long.

4-6 weeks

110 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:08:05am
“I believe there is a likelihood that there are Scuds that Hezbollah has in Lebanon. A high likelihood,” Senate Intelligence Committee chair Dianne Feinstein, a Democrat from California, told AFP.


It’s strange how jaded I’ve become about Republican lies. If this statement had come from a Republican I would have just assumed it wasn’t true.

111 researchok  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:08:20am

re: #84 marjoriemoon

I’m not really following that. I’d have to read more of it. Basically, what I’m reading “Armed conflict won’t solve this.” Oh hell ya it will, it’s just that lots have to die and Israel doesn’t want that. Meanwhile, all the Arabs have to offer is armed conflict.

Peace talks will solve it. So then the question is with who. what’s on the table, and are the Arabs going to comply by not attacking Israel?

And back we go to square one.

I wish it were that ximple.

The fact is, the Palestinians do not want peace with Israel. If they did, the minimum of conditions would open the floodgates to aid, investment and political respectability.

* Cessation of terror by the Palestinians
* Diplomatic recognition of Israel
* Secure borders.

Which of those things is too onerous a burden for the Palestinians? Since 1967, that is what the UN, the Israelis, Americans, Russians and then the Quartet, EU and everyone else have asked for.

112 shiplord kirel  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:08:24am

Another important point about Scud accuracy:

Iraq’s modified Scuds did not have the map-matching area correlation guidance developed for Soviet Scuds in the 1980s (see R-17).

This is alleged to improve accuracy to a couple of dozen meters. I don’t know whether any of these systems have been exported but the problem would be magnified many times over if Hezbollah Scuds had them.

113 jamesfirecat  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:09:14am

re: #110 Killgore Trout

It’s strange how jaded I’ve become about Republican lies. If this statement had come from a Republican I would have just assumed it wasn’t true.

You’re not the only one. I figured the Republicans would be looking for any stick they could find to whack Obama with to make him look weak on national defense giving all the terrorists our drones have been nailing and soldiers have been capturing recently….

114 Mad Al-Jaffee  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:09:36am

Scuds are just (very big) harmless road flares/bottle rockets! What’s the big deal?
/

115 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:09:44am

re: #111 researchok

I wish it were that ximple.

The fact is, the Palestinians do not want peace with Israel. If they did, the minimum of conditions would open the floodgates to aid, investment and political respectability.

* Cessation of terror by the Palestinians
* Diplomatic recognition of Israel
* Secure borders.

Which of those things is too onerous a burden for the Palestinians? Since 1967, that is what the UN, the Israelis, Americans, Russians and then the Quartet, EU and everyone else have asked for.

Right on brother (or sister).

116 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:09:58am

re: #97 McSpiff

You know, putting on my “Think-like-a-terrorist” hat, I still don’t get it. Why waste the cash on Scuds? If I was going to go toe-to-toe with Israel, I’d want small, man portable anti-tank and anti-air weapons. If I was going for anything bigger of the same vintage, I’d want some Russian 23mm gear, not freakin Scuds. These guys really aren’t all that bright…

If I were a real-deal bunch-of-virgins-waiting-for-me kind of terrorist, I would have a massive hard on at the concept of getting a nuke. Nothing could possibly trump that, and Israel is small enough that a single nuke could wipe out the entire country. The thing is, it’s pretty much inevitable, in the sense that the longer the conflict draws out, the more nuclear technology is trivialized, the more likely it becomes. Now all it takes it takes is a precisely calibrated laser.

That’s what scares the shit out of me, not just for the people of the ME, but everybody else as well. If the ME descends into nuclear war, the bulk of the global oil supply disappears instantly, the global economy collapses completely, and the rest of the world falls into 50 years of war, famine, and disease.

And all it would take is one nutbag with a suitcase nuke. This conflict has to end, one way or the other. There has to be a solution.

117 MandyManners  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:10:59am

IIRC, these accusations are at least a week old.

118 cliffster  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:11:35am

Drunk Dude vs Flip Flop

Youtube Video

I won’t tell you who wins, you have to watch to find out.

119 researchok  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:11:44am

re: #115 marjoriemoon

Right on brother (or sister).

For the record- Brother

120 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:12:04am

re: #116 Fozzie Bear

I think the suitcase nuke threat isn’t real, but you’re overall post is right on.

121 McSpiff  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:12:21am

re: #116 Fozzie Bear

Can you imagine if the IRA had started wheeling god damn ballistic missiles to the border of Northern Ireland? Good lord, no one would have questioned that smoking crater….

122 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:13:01am

re: #117 MandyManners

IIRC, these accusations are at least a week old.

Yeah, the story has been knocking around for a while but I seem to remember the original wingnut spin was that Obama was sending missiles to Hezbollah so I just ignored the story.

123 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:13:23am

re: #116 Fozzie Bear

Thanks “Mary fuckin’ Sunshine”.

124 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:13:32am

re: #121 McSpiff

Can you imagine if the IRA had started wheeling god damn ballistic missiles to the border of Northern Ireland? Good lord, no one would have questioned that smoking crater…

I’m glad they didn’t, as most of my family is from northern Ireland. I’d be nothing more than a crispy sperm cell somewhere.

125 Ericus58  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:14:08am

re: #111 researchok

I wish it were that ximple.

The fact is, the Palestinians do not want peace with Israel. If they did, the minimum of conditions would open the floodgates to aid, investment and political respectability.

* Cessation of terror by the Palestinians
* Diplomatic recognition of Israel
* Secure borders.

Which of those things is too onerous a burden for the Palestinians? Since 1967, that is what the UN, the Israelis, Americans, Russians and then the Quartet, EU and everyone else have asked for.

I wish it were that simple, but not now. With the Rising influence of Iran in the ME region and Iran’s military pacts with Syria and a growing one with Turkey…. not so good.
Egypt and Jordan are sideline watchers, and SA with the other Gulf states are not going to counter either.

126 Skeetghazi  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:14:14am

re: #118 cliffster

Drunk Dude vs Flip Flop


[Video]I won’t tell you who wins, you have to watch to find out.

lololol

Coachella?

I’m dying!

127 jamesfirecat  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:14:56am

re: #121 McSpiff

Can you imagine if the IRA had started wheeling god damn ballistic missiles to the border of Northern Ireland? Good lord, no one would have questioned that smoking crater…

You secretly long for the days of the British Empire, you want to be treated that badly that politely once again.

John Oliver.

128 Locker  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:15:44am

re: #124 Fozzie Bear

I’m glad they didn’t, as most of my family is from northern Ireland. I’d be nothing more than a crispy sperm cell somewhere.

Lots of mine as well. Celtics baby!

129 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:15:49am

re: #123 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Thanks “Mary fuckin’ Sunshine”.

Hahaha, would you believe I’m actually a pretty happy guy mostly? I guess this is why I try not to think about the ME too much, because it hurts my head. It’s the political equivalent of dividing by zero.

130 MandyManners  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:16:32am

re: #72 lawhawk

Ynet and Jpost had similar reports over the past few days that Abbas had been getting medical treatment for an undisclosed ailment.

If that isn’t bad enough, there are also hints that the situation in Egypt isn’t all that great either. Mubarak just had surgery for an undisclosed ailment. No one knows whether Mubarak will run again, and who might replace him (he hasn’t named a successor/VP), and when elections are carried out, one of the names being bandied about is ElBaraedi (formerly of the IAEA), and he’s got the support of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Yes, that’s right - the Muslim Brotherhood. While Mubarak has outlawed the group, it operates under other names and guises (if the Brotherhood didn’t exist, Mubarak would have to create it to maintain his security apparatus).

Of course, that’s in contrast with Zawahiri, who was involved in the Sadat assassination and rose to become the number 2 in al Qaeda.

I’ve been following El B’s candidacy for about two months or so. He scares me quite a bit because I think he’s responsible to a large degree for our current situation with Iran.

IIRC, some of his supporters got booted out of Kuwait about two weeks ago.

131 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:17:23am

re: #118 cliffster

Been there. Done that. To fucking funny

132 cliffster  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:17:36am

re: #126 Stanley Sea

lololol

Coachella?

I’m dying!

That dude was fud up

133 MandyManners  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:18:00am

re: #97 McSpiff

You know, putting on my “Think-like-a-terrorist” hat, I still don’t get it. Why waste the cash on Scuds? If I was going to go toe-to-toe with Israel, I’d want small, man portable anti-tank and anti-air weapons. If I was going for anything bigger of the same vintage, I’d want some Russian 23mm gear, not freakin Scuds. These guys really aren’t all that bright…

Terrorists don’t *do* conventional war-fare. They’d rather scare the hell out of, and kill large numbers of, civilians.

134 Locker  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:18:09am

re: #129 Fozzie Bear

Hahaha, would you believe I’m actually a pretty happy guy mostly? I guess this is why I try not to think about the ME too much, because it hurts my head. It’s the political equivalent of dividing by zero.

Laugh I just got ME means middle east. Earlier someone (maybe you) was saying ME girls are hot. And I’m thinking… “Really? Didn’t know girls in hip waders were considered hot.” assuming you meant Maine. Hehe I’m a dork but it was still funny.

135 Skeetghazi  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:18:33am

re: #132 cliffster

That dude was fud up

Like when he was sitting on the ground using his backpack to create a tri-pod.

136 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:18:36am

re: #129 Fozzie Bear

Hahaha, would you believe I’m actually a pretty happy guy mostly? I guess this is why I try not to think about the ME too much, because it hurts my head. It’s the political equivalent of dividing by zero.

I honestly don’t believe anyone is going to start nuking. Mostly because if one country does it, everyone else will also.

137 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:19:41am

re: #134 Locker

Laugh I just got ME means middle east. Earlier someone (maybe you) was saying ME girls are hot. And I’m thinking… “Really? Didn’t know girls in hip waders were considered hot.” assuming you meant Maine. Hehe I’m a dork but it was still funny.

OMG!! You are more of a dork than me!! (not ME or ME)
//

138 MandyManners  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:20:06am

re: #122 Killgore Trout

Yeah, the story has been knocking around for a while but I seem to remember the original wingnut spin was that Obama was sending missiles to Hezbollah so I just ignored the story.


We need to cut off the arms to Lebanon until Hiz’ballah is history.

139 jamesfirecat  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:20:22am

re: #136 marjoriemoon

I honestly don’t believe anyone is going to start nuking. Mostly because if one country does it, everyone else will also.

When the air becomes uranious,
We will all go simultaneous…

140 Kragar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:20:23am

re: #136 marjoriemoon

I honestly don’t believe anyone is going to start nuking. Mostly because if one country does it, everyone else will also.

Mutually assured destruction is only a detterant when the other side is afraid of dying.

141 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:22:08am

Been doing some number crunching based on Scud’s launch mass and thrust.

If the warhead were increased to a whopping 4000 pounds, burnout velocity would go down to roughly mach 3.5. This would still give a range of (very roughly) 80 miles, enough to reach a large part of Israel’s population from Hezbollah controlled territory.

142 Spider Mensch  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:22:11am

re: #139 jamesfirecat

When the air becomes uranious,
We will all go simultaneous…

I think I read that on a sidebar on the calendar pages of “The old Farmer’s Almanac”

143 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:22:41am

re: #136 marjoriemoon

I honestly don’t believe anyone is going to start nuking. Mostly because if one country does it, everyone else will also.

re: #140 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Mutually assured destruction is only a detterant when the other side is afraid of dying.

This.

144 McSpiff  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:23:15am

re: #133 MandyManners

Terrorists don’t *do* conventional war-fare. They’d rather scare the hell out of, and kill large numbers of, civilians.

Fair enough, I just don’t see a scud meeting those goals. Its not like the ME isn’t full of Scuds either, its just that no one has been stupid enough to supply one to a non-state actor yet. I refuse to believe Iran hasn’t considered arming their proxies with them, and then stopped when they realized what the consequences would be, for very little gain. Why lose your country for what will amount to a couple thousand lbs of high explosive?

145 Cannadian Club Akbar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:23:30am

re: #138 MandyManners

We need to cut off the arms to Lebanon until Hiz’ballah is history.

re: #50 Cannadian Club Akbar

We need to let Israel do their thing and tell the UN to shut the fuck up. Two cents.

Re-posted. Just so peole know where I stand.

146 Ericus58  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:23:31am

This is shades of ‘73 growing…

Hamas, Hiz, I-Jihad and Fatah have a nice cozy relationship with backing from Iran and Syria.

If one of the proxie’s start up an incident that expands to involve other Nations, who remains on the side and who joins them?

Does Turkey add it’s might to the conflict?
Add in Russia and China, as well as understanding their growing economic/military trade with Iran…

We are not at the trip-wire as yet, but the maneuvering to that point is underway.

147 lostlakehiker  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:23:40am

Hizbullah doesn’t exactly have SCUDS. They probably don’t even have personnel who can prepare them for launch and program their targets and launch them. Instead, Iran’s armed forces have incorporated Hizbullah’s militias, arming them and training them, and no doubt provided cadres who can tend to the technical difficulties of SCUD use.

Iran must be held responsible for anything done with those SCUDS. [Assuming this report is correct.] They made them, they man them, they paid for them, and if they’re fired, they fired them. Hizbullah is in any case funded and directed by Iran.

Unfortunately, the current administration seems inclined to the view that Israel deserves whatever it gets, since it had the effrontery to build housing in the suburbs of Jerusalem.

148 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:23:44am

re: #140 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Mutually assured destruction is only a detterant when the other side is afraid of dying.

I don’t really think Achmedinejad and the Mad Mullahs want to die. They pretend like they do, but they love themselves and their way of life far too much. And quite honestly, that’s the whole reason for the “Palestinian Arabs” anyway. Let them do the fighting and the dying while we sit on the side and feed them the ammo. Meanwhile, we’ll tell them how great it is to die for Allah.

149 MandyManners  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:23:45am

re: #140 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Mutually assured destruction is only a detterant when the other side is afraid of dying.

And, when the leader of a nation wants to bring on the Madhi,…

150 webevintage  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:24:00am

re: #68 flexthink

Well, at least we know that if push comes to shove then Obama will blame Israel and impose sanctions on it so that he can show support for his closest ally - Syria and Iran.

Oh…..bullshit.

151 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:24:30am

re: #139 jamesfirecat

When the air becomes uranious,
We will all go simultaneous…

Youtube Video
152 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:25:14am

re: #146 Ericus58

This is shades of ‘73 growing…

Hamas, Hiz, I-Jihad and Fatah have a nice cozy relationship with backing from Iran and Syria.

If one of the proxie’s start up an incident that expands to involve other Nations, who remains on the side and who joins them?

Does Turkey add it’s might to the conflict?
Add in Russia and China, as well as understanding their growing economic/military trade with Iran…

We are not at the trip-wire as yet, but the maneuvering to that point is underway.

Interesting… where do we find a Nixon then.

153 MandyManners  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:25:34am

re: #144 McSpiff

Fair enough, I just don’t see a scud meeting those goals. Its not like the ME isn’t full of Scuds either, its just that no one has been stupid enough to supply one to a non-state actor yet. I refuse to believe Iran hasn’t considered arming their proxies with them, and then stopped when they realized what the consequences would be, for very little gain. Why lose your country for what will amount to a couple thousand lbs of high explosive?

You are assuming that explosives would be used. Scuds can carry chemical war heads.

154 celticdragon  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:25:34am

re: #15 Locker

I hope we didn’t pawn that POS Patriot off on them. Didn’t do much for us vs SCUDs.


That is because it was designed to go after aircraft, including low altitude fighters. The software package for missile defense was an add on, which the missile had not really been purpose built for.

On February 25, 1991, a Patriot missile battery assigned to protect a military installation at Dahrahn, Saudi Arabia, failed to intercept a Scud missile, and the malfunction was blamed on an error in computer arithmetic. The Patriot’s control system kept track of time by counting tenths of a second; to convert the count into full seconds, the computer multiplied by 1/10. Mathematically, the procedure is unassailable, but computationally it was disastrous. Because the decimal fraction 1/10 has no exact finite representation in binary notation, the computer had to approximate. Apparently, the conversion constant stored in the program was the 24-bit binary fraction 0.00011001100110011001100, which is too small by a factor of about one ten-millionth. The discrepancy sounds tiny, but over four days it built up to about a third of a second. In combination with other peculiarities of the control software, the inaccuracy caused a miscalculation of almost 700 meters in the predicted position of the incoming missile. Twenty-eight soldiers died…

155 ryannon  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:26:02am

Scuds in Lebanon? What happened to the scuds in Iraq?

What? They don’t have them any more?

How are they going to defend themselves from Israel?

Another example of Bush’s evil legacy.

156 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:26:08am

re: #150 webevintage

Oh…bullshit.

It ran away.

157 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:26:15am

re: #148 marjoriemoon

I don’t really think Achmedinejad and the Mad Mullahs want to die. They pretend like they do, but they love themselves and their way of life far too much. And quite honestly, that’s the whole reason for the “Palestinian Arabs” anyway. Let them do the fighting and the dying while we sit on the side and feed them the ammo. Meanwhile, we’ll tell them how great it is to die for Allah.

(We = Iran, Hizzbollah and Syria, not the U.S.)

158 jamesfirecat  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:26:24am

re: #151 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

[Video]

Wrong song I was referencing,

Youtube Video
but I always upding Tom Lhere….
159 really grumpy big dog johnson  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:27:02am

People have good reason to worry about El Baradei as Egyptian president. The guy was a disaster as the UN nuke watchdog, imagine what he’d be like as president and the de facto head of the Muslim Brotherhood?

It’s not a pretty image…

[Link: www.newsweek.com…]

160 webevintage  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:27:54am

re: #147 lostlakehiker

Unfortunately, the current administration seems inclined to the view that Israel deserves whatever it gets, since it had the effrontery to build housing in the suburbs of Jerusalem.

And more bull Shit….

161 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:28:18am

re: #153 MandyManners

Chemical warfare, while odious and terrifying, is actually in general less of a real threat than conventional warfare. It all depends on what chemical, of course.

162 celticdragon  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:28:22am

re: #147 lostlakehiker

Hizbullah doesn’t exactly have SCUDS. They probably don’t even have personnel who can prepare them for launch and program their targets and launch them. Instead, Iran’s armed forces have incorporated Hizbullah’s militias, arming them and training them, and no doubt provided cadres who can tend to the technical difficulties of SCUD use.

Iran must be held responsible for anything done with those SCUDS. [Assuming this report is correct.] They made them, they man them, they paid for them, and if they’re fired, they fired them. Hizbullah is in any case funded and directed by Iran.

Unfortunately, the current administration seems inclined to the view that Israel deserves whatever it gets, since it had the effrontery to build housing in the suburbs of Jerusalem.

I agree. Who the hell in Hezbollah has training and resources to maintain and fire liquid chemical missiles??!

You can’t transport them fueled up, and you can’t store them while fueled either. You have to have facilities to store and transfer the fuel, (which can be dangerous) as well as the erector launch vehicles and trained personnel.

If a Scud comes down in Israel…look at Iran.

163 MandyManners  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:28:44am

re: #146 Ericus58

This is shades of ‘73 growing…

Hamas, Hiz, I-Jihad and Fatah have a nice cozy relationship with backing from Iran and Syria.

If one of the proxie’s start up an incident that expands to involve other Nations, who remains on the side and who joins them?

Does Turkey add it’s might to the conflict?
Add in Russia and China, as well as understanding their growing economic/military trade with Iran…

We are not at the trip-wire as yet, but the maneuvering to that point is underway.

Turkey?

Turkey is planning a gesture that will challenge Israel and provide support to Gaza’s Hamas leaders next month. A flotilla of ships funded by Turkey will approach Gaza in May, in an attempt to challenge Israeli control at sea - or, as organizers put it, “break Israel’s illegal blockade on Gaza.”

While residents of Gaza have access to the sea, the Israel Navy prevents travel by sea between Gaza and surrounding countries, in an attempt to prevent weapons smuggling. Gaza terrorists have previously used incoming ships to smuggle arms, and have used the sea to transport bombs to the coast of southern Israel.

SNIP

164 McSpiff  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:28:56am

re: #153 MandyManners

You are assuming that explosives would be used. Scuds can carry chemical war heads.

I am assuming conventional warheads, you’re right. Chemical or nuclear is an entirely different level of stupidity. But if you’re going to launch an attack like that, why bother with Hez in the first place? Everyone knows Hez or any other non-state actor would need the support of either Syria or Iran, is Syria just hoping Israel guesses wrong?

165 Ericus58  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:30:17am

re: #152 marjoriemoon

Interesting… where do we find a Nixon then.

In truth, I think that if Israel come to the conclusion that it is a possible ‘73 again, they go into ‘67 mode and let the chips fall where they may in regards to the UN, EU and even the US.

Then - if that happens, who will be our Nixon… or more importantly: Who will be Israel’s Nixon in the World Political arena?

166 Killgore Trout  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:30:18am

Jews for Christian theocracy…..

New Group: Jews Should Learn To Stop Worrying And Love Sarah Palin (VIDEO)

Jewish Americans for Sarah Palin calls itself a group of “academic, religious and political leaders, dedicated to promoting consideration of Gov. Sarah Palin’s political positions in the wider American Jewish community,” but for now, publicly, the start-up is just one man.
167 MandyManners  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:30:24am

re: #164 McSpiff

I am assuming conventional warheads, you’re right. Chemical or nuclear is an entirely different level of stupidity. But if you’re going to launch an attack like that, why bother with Hez in the first place? Everyone knows Hez or any other non-state actor would need the support of either Syria or Iran, is Syria just hoping Israel guesses wrong?

Plausible deniabiity.

168 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:31:25am

I’ll go out on a limb, and say this story is “not likely”. The support system and fuel for a Scud is extremely unlikely to stay hidden in a built-up area for any length of time. Any such asset would be easily discovered and targeted by the IDF.

Good data on Scud. Note the fuels:
[Link: www.globalsecurity.org…]

169 celticdragon  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:31:32am

re: #164 McSpiff

I am assuming conventional warheads, you’re right. Chemical or nuclear is an entirely different level of stupidity. But if you’re going to launch an attack like that, why bother with Hez in the first place? Everyone knows Hez or any other non-state actor would need the support of either Syria or Iran, is Syria just hoping Israel guesses wrong?

If somebody pops of an NBC warhead (nuc/bio/chem), we may get to see just what those sleek Dolphin subs are really carrying in those oversize launch tubes...

170 celticdragon  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:32:43am

re: #168 Decatur Deb

I’ll go out on a limb, and say this story is “not likely”. The support system and fuel for a Scud is extremely unlikely to stay hidden in a built-up area for any length of time. Any such asset would be easily discovered and targeted by the IDF.

Good data on Scud. Note the fuels:
[Link: www.globalsecurity.org…]

Exactly. These are not backyard launched Katyusha rockets.

171 windsagio  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:32:47am

re: #168 Decatur Deb

Do we know much about the Senator making the claim?


edit: Oh its Feinstein.

172 garhighway  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:32:55am

re: #155 ryannon

Scuds in Lebanon? What happened to the scuds in Iraq?

What? They don’t have them any more?

How are they going to defend themselves from Israel?

Another example of Bush’s evil legacy.

That and the 4000 or so American servicemen that died in Iraq.

173 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:33:04am

re: #166 Killgore Trout

I predict that group may double or triple in size!

174 windsagio  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:33:43am

re: #169 celticdragon

Who would they hit tho? Syria?

175 cliffster  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:33:48am

Geico voiceover actor fired after leaving an offensive message for tea party

Actor Lance Baxter, otherwise known as “D.C. Douglas,” currently known as the man who informs you how much Geico can save you on car insurance, left a message last month with FreedomWorks in which he asked the group how many “mentally retarded” people it had on staff and what it would do when a tea partyer “killed someone.” On April 14, FreedomWorks put his voicemail online.

He’s looking for a job and has a pretty impressive voice, if you’re looking for that sort of thing

176 lawhawk  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:34:14am

re: #15 Locker

The Patriot is now in its third or fourth major iteration (PAC-3), depending on how you count versions. The missiles, software, and radars have all seen serious upgrades since the 1st Gulf War. It’s also used in conjunction with other missile defense systems to provide a layered defense - for Israel, the Iron Dome is in the mix, along with Hawk missile system and the Arrow missile.

178 windsagio  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:34:44am

re: #175 cliffster

That guy just became substantially cooler in my mind.

Think it was drunk dialing?

179 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:34:53am

re: #172 garhighway

That was kind of poopy.

180 darthstar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:34:54am

re: #161 Obdicut

Chemical warfare, while odious and terrifying, is actually in general less of a real threat than conventional warfare. It all depends on what chemical, of course.


Youtube Video
181 celticdragon  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:35:01am

re: #174 windsagio

Almost certainly Iran, although Syria is a willing conduit between Iran and Hezbollah.

182 windsagio  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:35:40am

re: #177 MandyManners

LVQ (finally remembered who it was for sure) did a 4 post long savaging of this kind of logic a few weeks back, might be worth looking up.

183 windsagio  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:36:20am

re: #177 MandyManners

Also, think Jews would be offended by obviously political operatives trying to Dogwhistle them with Israel?

184 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:36:44am

re: #165 Ericus58

In truth, I think that if Israel come to the conclusion that it is a possible ‘73 again, they go into ‘67 mode and let the chips fall where they may in regards to the UN, EU and even the US.

Then - if that happens, who will be our Nixon… or more importantly: Who will be Israel’s Nixon in the World Political arena?

I don’t know the answer to that. Lord help us, I wish I did.

185 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:36:49am

re: #177 MandyManners

Do you find that really compelling or something? To me, that furthers the case that this ‘group’ is nutty as hell. In a week when three top Al Queda members are killed, especially.

186 windsagio  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:37:07am

re: #180 darthstar

The US chemical weapons depot is near here, they’re having trouble getting rid of the stuff >>

187 celticdragon  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:37:47am

re: #180 darthstar

[Video]

It works pretty well as an area denial strategy. Persistent agents make it virtually impossible to conduct combat ops in areas hit with them. MOPP suits are bulky, hot, and radically restrict simple breathing, eating and hydration to say nothing about fighting.

188 windsagio  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:38:19am

re: #184 marjoriemoon

In that scenario the US would almost certainly fall in line, if Israel could show any provacation at all.

189 Samson  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:38:30am

Hizbullah admits receiving Syrian scuds:

[Link: www.jpost.com…]

190 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:38:36am

re: #166 Killgore Trout

Jews for Christian theocracy…

New Group: Jews Should Learn To Stop Worrying And Love Sarah Palin (VIDEO)

Jewish Jews or Jews for Jesus (Messianic) Jews?

191 Skeetghazi  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:39:29am

re: #185 Obdicut

Do you find that really compelling or something? To me, that furthers the case that this ‘group’ is nutty as hell. In a week when three top Al Queda members are killed, especially.

One comment indicated that the website in question was actually started late Friday night. Definitely not orthodox!

192 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:39:37am

re: #183 windsagio

Also, think Jews would be offended by obviously political operatives trying to Dogwhistle them with Israel?

What is it with you, Jews and Israel… what do you mean “dogwhistle them with Israel?”

193 windsagio  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:39:57am

re: #189 Samson

Wait they’re saying “Yes we got them, but they don’t work”?

Does that make sense to anyone? Are they trying to (lol) threaten Israel?

194 lawhawk  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:40:53am

re: #161 Obdicut

Indeed - it does. The nerve agents are the real threat, along with those that are persistent agents rather than those that dissipate after a short period.

195 windsagio  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:41:18am

re: #192 marjoriemoon

I mean that that group is trying to manipulate people by saying “YOU SHOULD HATE OBAMA BECAUSE HE”S BAD ON ISRAEL.”

Naturally, Israel is very important to the Jewish people. Using it in that way would certainly be a dogwhistle.


And what is it with me and jews and israel? I dunno >> What do you think?

196 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:42:33am

re: #133 MandyManners

Terrorists don’t *do* conventional war-fare. They’d rather scare the hell out of, and kill large numbers of, civilians.

It’s also a desire to appear strong. Smaller systems are more effective but are only more impressive to those in the know. A big missile is more impressive to those who know little about how wars are actually fought.

197 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:42:56am

re: #194 lawhawk

But in terms of, well, the economy of terror or warefare, so to speak, you can kill a hell of a lot more people with conventional explosives than with poison gas. Delivery of chemicals is a real bitch.

However, the terror of it is obviously a huge attractor for the kind of sick fucks that attack civilian populations. But in cold, objective terms of loss of life, it’s better to receive a chemical attack than a conventional attack with the same expenditure.

198 lawhawk  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:42:56am

So, Hizbullah admits getting them but claims that the missiles are out of date, but will be used if Israel threatens Lebanon. Gotcha.

This is again in direct violation of UN SCR 1701, but don’t expect UNIFIL to force compliance, because that would mean going against the largest militia operating in Lebanon and one that is part and parcel of the Lebanese government.

199 Political Atheist  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:43:03am

re: #195 windsagio

I mean that that group is trying to manipulate people by saying “YOU SHOULD HATE OBAMA BECAUSE HE”S BAD ON ISRAEL.”

Naturally, Israel is very important to the Jewish people. Using it in that way would certainly be a dogwhistle.

And what is it with me and jews and israel? I dunno >> What do you think?

How is that racial? Dog whistle?

200 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:43:54am

re: #195 windsagio

I mean that that group is trying to manipulate people by saying “YOU SHOULD HATE OBAMA BECAUSE HE”S BAD ON ISRAEL.”

Naturally, Israel is very important to the Jewish people. Using it in that way would certainly be a dogwhistle.

And what is it with me and jews and israel? I dunno >> What do you think?

My question is whether they’re really Jews or pretend Jews.

You’re support for Israel seems generally tenuous so I tend to “go there” with you. Sorry if I misread your last comment.

201 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:44:14am

re: #175 cliffster

Geico voiceover actor fired after leaving an offensive message for tea party

He’s looking for a job and has a pretty impressive voice, if you’re looking for that sort of thing

Very stupid. He put his foot right in it and left GEICO no choice but to can him.

202 garhighway  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:44:30am

re: #179 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That was kind of poopy.

If someone is going to tout the perceived benefits of Gulf War II, they have to match them up against the costs.

Are the costs “poopy”? You bet. They are tragic.

So was it worth the candle? You tell me.

203 windsagio  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:44:35am

re: #199 Rightwingconspirator

maybe my definition is different. I didn’t think a ‘dogwhistle’ had to have racial overtones. If it does, I’ll have to recant.

204 MandyManners  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:45:33am

*rolls eyes*

205 Joo-LiZ  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:45:50am

Dammit, I always miss the threads about things I actually know.

I’m just peaking in and can’t stick around to chat =(

From what I’ve seen, since the beginning of April there has been a series of he-said/she-said denials and confirmations and back-tracking and weaseling around about whether or not the transfer did happen.

Israel has made clear that they see no difference between Hizballah and Lebanon anymore, and a war in the north will be considered a war against Lebanon as well. They have also said that if any Syrian weaponry is used by Hizballah in a conflict, they would not restrain themselves to fighting in Lebanon only. (In other words, Syria would become a battlefield as well).

I believe it was the Arab paper, The National, that quoted an unnamed US official saying that the Israelis ALMOST attacked the Scuds when they were being transferred, but the US managed to talk them down. The quote included the official saying he couldn’t confirm planes were in the sky or anything like that, but it was very close. Part of the US talking Israel down was for the US to bring up the issue with the Syrians, which it sounds like they have done.

We’ll see how this unfolds, but there certainly seems to be grounds for increased tension up there. It’s really jarring to think about just how much Hizballah has managed to reconsolidate after the 2006 war. They have more weapons, more advanced weapons, better training, and are all around better prepared for a conflict.

Fortunately, Israel’s army has much improved since the lax days prior to the 2006 war.

Sorry, I ended up rambling quite a bit. Not much to do but wait and see how things play out.

206 windsagio  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:46:22am

re: #200 marjoriemoon

hehe that’s emerging as my not-very-comfortable niche >>

“The guy whose relatively cynical on Israel Policy”.

I think that the group Mandy linked to is attempting to manipulate Jews, and I was wondering if the people more involved found that kind of technique annoying or not.

207 lawhawk  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:46:40am

re: #197 Obdicut

High explosives can kill more people, this is true. However, WMD can provide area denial capabilities that high explosives can’t. You could drop landmines to deny an area to the enemy, but those are rather easy to pick out compared with a WMD used to deny that same area - the detection, cleanup, and lingering effects make it far more difficult.

WMD, and their threat of use, can also slow down a military response, force additional precautions and otherwise cause fear as a terror weapon over their use, even though a high explosive can be just as deadly.

And bear in mind that the original 1993 WTC bombers sought to blow up the WTC using a bomb that had a chemical weapons component but thankfully that part vaporized in the explosion rather than be spread throughout the buildings.

208 Ericus58  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:47:15am

re: #189 Samson

Hizbullah admits receiving Syrian scuds:

[Link: www.jpost.com…]

“In an effort to prevent renewed conflict, the US State Department summoned the Syrian ambassador in Washington, Imad Mustafa, and warned him that war could break out if the weapons shipments were not stopped, Al-Rai reported on Monday.

The IDF came very close recently to attacking a convoy carrying weapons from Syria to Lebanon, but at the last moment decided against it, according to The Wall Street Journal.”

209 windsagio  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:47:48am

re: #196 Dark_Falcon

Really well said, it would also totally explain the Hezbollah statement that somebody else posted.

They’re trying to be intimidating, so any weapons they claim are good (to them).

210 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:48:13am

re: #20 Charles

Get a load of this statement by Feinstein, though:

Really?

There are reasons to support two states, but does Feinstein actually believe that Hezbollah and Syria would just pack up the Scud missiles and put them in storage if the Palestinians had a state?

Good grief. That’s the kind of reality-denial that keeps this conflict going. It’s not about “two states,” and it never has been.

If Palestinians wanted a state of their very own they could have declared one 15 years ago and it would be recognized by more countries than currently recognize Israel. But they haven’t.

The reason is that they don’t want their own state side by side with Israel, they want their own state in the place of Israel (and no Juice, of course)

211 windsagio  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:49:24am

re: #204 MandyManners

Aah, passive aggression. Always in style.

212 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:50:19am

re: #208 Ericus58

“In an effort to prevent renewed conflict, the US State Department summoned the Syrian ambassador in Washington, Imad Mustafa, and warned him that war could break out if the weapons shipments were not stopped, Al-Rai reported on Monday.

The IDF came very close recently to attacking a convoy carrying weapons from Syria to Lebanon, but at the last moment decided against it, according to The Wall Street Journal.”

Summoning the ambassador will get us nothing. We need something to show strength. Assad will respect nothing else.

213 windsagio  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:51:00am

re: #212 Dark_Falcon

We have to treat sovereign states as sovereign states. There are rules, etc >>

214 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:55:20am

re: #212 Dark_Falcon

Summoning the ambassador will get us nothing. We need something to show strength. Assad will respect nothing else.

That meeting would have been a good time for a Ren&Stimpy monologue…

Aceofwhat: Youuu…both of youuu…oh, what I’m gonna do to you. I’m so angry! First, I’m gonna tear your lips out. Yeah, that’s what I’m gonna do. And then I’m gonna gouge your eyes out. Yeah, that’s what I’m gonna do.

Syria: We don’t like this, Ren.
Hizbullah: Yeah, you’s scaring us.

Aceofwhat: Yeah, you’re scared, huh? Next, I’m gonna tear your arms out of the sockets. And you wanna know what else? I’m gonna hit ya…and you’re gonna fall…and I’m gonna look down…and I’m gonna laugh.
But first, FIRST! I gotta take a whiz, don’t you go anywhere, you stay right here, right on this spot, I’ll be back.

215 ryannon  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:55:54am

re: #172 garhighway

That and the 4000 or so American servicemen that died in Iraq.

“Bush lied, our soldiers died.”

Is that you, Cindy?

The Chimp was a genius at lying: how else did he manage to corral thirty-five other nations into his Coalition of Evil.

I can’t listen to this without vomiting:

Youtube Video

/

And if you think I’m in any way trying to minimize the bravery, sense of duty and sacrifice of the men who served there, you better think again. I’m being very polite here.

216 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:56:37am

re: #214 Aceofwhat?

That meeting would have been a good time for a Ren&Stimpy monologue…

Aceofwhat: Youuu…both of youuu…oh, what I’m gonna do to you. I’m so angry! First, I’m gonna tear your lips out. Yeah, that’s what I’m gonna do. And then I’m gonna gouge your eyes out. Yeah, that’s what I’m gonna do.

Syria: We don’t like this, Ren.
Hizbullah: Yeah, you’s scaring us.

Aceofwhat: Yeah, you’re scared, huh? Next, I’m gonna tear your arms out of the sockets. And you wanna know what else? I’m gonna hit ya…and you’re gonna fall…and I’m gonna look down…and I’m gonna laugh.
But first, FIRST! I gotta take a whiz, don’t you go anywhere, you stay right here, right on this spot, I’ll be back.

Just Don’t Whiz On The Electric Fence. ;)

217 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:56:40am

re: #213 windsagio

We have to treat sovereign states as sovereign states. There are rules, etc >>

I think it’s Hizbullah’s disinclination to follow the rules which concerns us…

218 windsagio  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:56:54am

re: #214 Aceofwhat?

+for Ren and Stimpy >>

219 windsagio  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:57:39am

re: #217 Aceofwhat?

But we’re talking about Syria here. If we don’t talk to their ambassador, what do you suggest we do? >>

220 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:58:01am

re: #218 windsagio

+for Ren and Stimpy >>

i feel that i’d make a great ambassador;)

221 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:58:16am

re: #215 ryannon

Is that a sarc tag, or do you really dislike George W. Bush?

Please excuse my density, I have a bad headache.

222 windsagio  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:59:03am

re: #221 Dark_Falcon

Err, there is a sarc tag >>

223 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:59:16am

re: #219 windsagio

But we’re talking about Syria here. If we don’t talk to their ambassador, what do you suggest we do? >>

Oh, i think we should start there. But what we say is the important part. Hopefully it’s something along the lines of “hey, if anyone so much as twitches over there, Israel is coming for you and we’re right behind them…so we suggest you figure out a way to get yourself out of this little pickle.”

224 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:59:53am

re: #221 Dark_Falcon

Is that a sarc tag, or do you really dislike George W. Bush?

Please excuse my density, I have a bad headache.

it was a smackdown of garhighway’s “4000 dead” post, and rightfully so.

225 windsagio  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 11:59:55am

re: #223 Aceofwhat?

Man, thats where I get in trouble on this blog. I don’t know why we should get involved in their wars.

226 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:00:03pm

re: #219 windsagio

But we’re talking about Syria here. If we don’t talk to their ambassador, what do you suggest we do? >>

Summon the ambassador, but also give a demonstration of strength at the same time. Ideally, invite him to watch a drone strike from Iraq live. Then remind him how quickly those Reaper drones can be inside Syria.

227 garhighway  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:00:10pm

re: #215 ryannon

“Bush lied, our soldiers died.”

Is that you, Cindy?

The Chimp was a genius at lying: how else did he manage to corral thirty-five other nations into his Coalition of Evil.

I can’t listen to this without vomiting:

[Video]

/

And if you think I’m in any way trying to minimize the bravery, sense of duty and sacrifice of the men who served there, you better think again. I’m being very polite here.

And I appreciate your politeness.

So what do you think: was Gulf War II worth the candle? Knowing the human, political and monetary cost of that effort, was it a good idea?

I think it is a fair question.

228 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:00:22pm

re: #222 windsagio

Err, there is a sarc tag >>

re: #224 Aceofwhat?

it was a smackdown of garhighway’s “4000 dead” post, and rightfully so.

Understood.

229 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:00:31pm

re: #206 windsagio

hehe that’s emerging as my not-very-comfortable niche >>

“The guy whose relatively cynical on Israel Policy”.

I think that the group Mandy linked to is attempting to manipulate Jews, and I was wondering if the people more involved found that kind of technique annoying or not.

I didn’t read the article well, just kinda glanced through it. Jews are generally Democrats, as you probably know. The number’s like 80/20% Dem/Rep ratio, something like that. But I think it would be odd for Jews to personally support Sarah because I don’t think we have a whole lot in common with her. I’m not sure her “love for Israel” is entirely genuine from a Jewish perspective, what with “let’s make the U.S. a Christian nation” and all.

230 windsagio  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:00:41pm

re: #227 garhighway

Dude, don’t do this!

This argument is soooo dead >>

231 Shiplord Kirel  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:00:45pm

re: #168 Decatur Deb

I’ll go out on a limb, and say this story is “not likely”. The support system and fuel for a Scud is extremely unlikely to stay hidden in a built-up area for any length of time. Any such asset would be easily discovered and targeted by the IDF.

Good data on Scud. Note the fuels:
[Link: www.globalsecurity.org…]

Sorry, I’m not buying it. Saddam’s Scuds proved devilishly difficult to track down and destroy during the Gulf War. Some 1500 air sorties and several special forces operations were launched for Scud suppression but there is no proof that a single active Scud launcher was destroyed.

The distinctive 8 wheeled Scud tranporter/launcher is no larger than any other heavy truck and can be parked in any handy garage or tractor shed. The exposure time needed for a launch is in the seconds rather than minutes. The propellants are sometimes given exotic names (RP-1 and IRFNA, for example) but they are basically nitric acid and kerosene. The materials themselves are no harder to handle or store than many commercial hazmat loads. They are moved around in tankers that look like any other tanker and can likewise be hidden in garages, sheds, warehouses, caves and the like. Two tankers (one for each type of propellant) carry enough for several launches.

232 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:01:00pm

re: #205 Joo-LiZ

Sorry you can’t stick around :( Would like to hear more.

233 ryannon  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:01:04pm

re: #221 Dark_Falcon

Is that a sarc tag, or do you really dislike George W. Bush?

Please excuse my density, I have a bad headache.

That’s definitely a sarc tag - for everything but the last sentence.

234 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:01:54pm

re: #227 garhighway

And I appreciate your politeness.

So what do you think: was Gulf War II worth the candle? Knowing the human, political and monetary cost of that effort, was it a good idea?

I think it is a fair question.

I can’t answer that yet. But I know I approved of it when it began, and based on what GWB knew at the time, it was a good idea.

235 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:02:12pm

re: #207 lawhawk

And bear in mind that the original 1993 WTC bombers sought to blow up the WTC using a bomb that had a chemical weapons component but thankfully that part vaporized in the explosion rather than be spread throughout the buildings.

Well, that’s exactly what I mean. Delivery of chemical weapons is very, very complicated. They’re, in general, more ineffective than explosives in nearly every way, and I’d rather a terrorist group spent money on a chemical warhead with a high chance of not working and a lower death toll than a conventional weapon that would, for the same amount of money, cause more death and destruction.

236 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:02:23pm

re: #225 windsagio

Man, thats where I get in trouble on this blog. I don’t know why we should get involved in their wars.

Because they stand for the same things that we do. And their enemies are terrorists. It doesn’t get much simpler for me, on the world stage, to pick sides.

And we don’t need to send a bunch of troops over there. In my mind it’s more like playing the bouncer at a fight where your friend is about to kick ass, making sure no one hits him from behind. We’re there to tell the Egypts of the world to be very, very quiet IMHO…

237 darthstar  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:03:16pm

re: #223 Aceofwhat?

Oh, i think we should start there. But what we say is the important part. Hopefully it’s something along the lines of “hey, if anyone so much as twitches over there, Israel is coming for you and we’re right behind them…so we suggest you figure out a way to get yourself out of this little pickle.”

I think we should finish the two wars we’re in before getting involved in another one.

238 windsagio  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:03:36pm

re: #236 Aceofwhat?

I’ve heard that idea before >>

I think I’m gonna weasel out tho’ before the hammer comes down.

239 cenotaphium  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:05:08pm

re: #235 Obdicut

Well, that’s exactly what I mean. Delivery of chemical weapons is very, very complicated. They’re, in general, more ineffective than explosives in nearly every way, and I’d rather a terrorist group spent money on a chemical warhead with a high chance of not working and a lower death toll than a conventional weapon that would, for the same amount of money, cause more death and destruction.

Agreed. However, I think you’re discounting the effects and costs of the fear of chemical weapons. We are pretty well trained to freak out over bad guys with their hands on any NBC weapons. Ordinary weapons? Not as much.

240 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:05:14pm

re: #237 darthstar

I think we should finish the two wars we’re in before getting involved in another one.

I don’t think Israel needs our help on the ground so much as at the UN telling the Libyas of the world not to move a muscle.

241 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:05:20pm

re: #231 Shiplord Kirel

Sorry, I’m not buying it. Saddam’s Scuds proved devilishly difficult to track down and destroy during the Gulf War. Some 1500 air sorties and several special forces operations were launched for Scud suppression but there is no proof that a single active Scud launcher was destroyed.

The distinctive 8 wheeled Scud tranporter/launcher is no larger than any other heavy truck and can be parked in any handy garage or tractor shed. The exposure time needed for a launch is in the seconds rather than minutes. The propellants are sometimes given exotic names (RP-1 and IRFNA, for example) but they are basically nitric acid and kerosene. The materials themselves are no harder to handle or store than many commercial hazmat loads. They are moved around in tankers that look like any other tanker and can likewise be hidden in garages, sheds, warehouses, caves and the like. Two tankers (one for each type of propellant) carry enough for several launches.

I’m relying on the differences between densely-settled Lebanon and the Iraq desert. Lebanon is totally transparent to Israeli intel. The missiles and their support/logistics could not sit still for more than a few weeks. The only possible role for such awkward weapons would be to deliberately induce an attack.

242 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:05:41pm

re: #238 windsagio

I’ve heard that idea before >>

I think I’m gonna weasel out tho’ before the hammer comes down.

nothing wrong with that. i do it all the time;)

243 ryannon  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:05:45pm

re: #225 windsagio

Man, thats where I get in trouble on this blog. I don’t know why we should get involved in their wars.

Because for better or for worse, we’ve never been very good at pretending that we’re Switzerland.

244 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:06:38pm

re: #231 Shiplord Kirel

Sorry, I’m not buying it. Saddam’s Scuds proved devilishly difficult to track down and destroy during the Gulf War. Some 1500 air sorties and several special forces operations were launched for Scud suppression but there is no proof that a single active Scud launcher was destroyed.

The distinctive 8 wheeled Scud tranporter/launcher is no larger than any other heavy truck and can be parked in any handy garage or tractor shed. The exposure time needed for a launch is in the seconds rather than minutes. The propellants are sometimes given exotic names (RP-1 and IRFNA, for example) but they are basically nitric acid and kerosene. The materials themselves are no harder to handle or store than many commercial hazmat loads. They are moved around in tankers that look like any other tanker and can likewise be hidden in garages, sheds, warehouses, caves and the like. Two tankers (one for each type of propellant) carry enough for several launches.

True, but Lebanon is a much smaller area than the western Iraqi desert. They’ll have fewer places to hide. We also have the drones we did not have back then. Now we could have Predators on station almost continuously and fire Hellfires if we spot a SCUD.

245 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:07:14pm

re: #225 windsagio

Man, thats where I get in trouble on this blog. I don’t know why we should get involved in their wars.

Well you’re nothing if not consistent!

Ace gave you a good answer at #236, but let me ask you. What problem do you have supporting Israel? Do you think the problem will go away if we don’t? Or just that what happens there is none of our business?

246 Buck  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:07:53pm

re: #185 Obdicut

Do you find that really compelling or something? To me, that furthers the case that this ‘group’ is nutty as hell. In a week when three top Al Queda members are killed, especially.

there does seem to be different rules for the US engaging enemies of the USA and Israel engaging enemies of Israel.

247 webevintage  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:08:20pm

re: #201 Dark_Falcon

Very stupid. He put his foot right in it and left GEICO no choice but to can him.

Yep.
Moron.
Drunk?

248 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:09:36pm

re: #240 Aceofwhat?

I don’t think Israel needs our help on the ground so much as at the UN telling the Libyas of the world not to move a muscle.

Give them enough money, guns, ammo, jets, whatever Israel wants, whatever they need to lay Syria/Hizzbolah flat right out of the gate would be fine. Better yet, destroy their entire arsenal. If they build it again? Destroy it again and so on and so on.

249 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:09:59pm

re: #245 marjoriemoon

Well you’re nothing if not consistent!

Ace gave you a good answer at #236, but let me ask you. What problem do you have supporting Israel? Do you think the problem will go away if we don’t? Or just that what happens there is none of our business?

don’t worry, i won’t let it get to my head…

250 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:10:01pm

re: #239 cenotaphium

I’m not discounting it— that’s what makes them good terror weapons. They definitely have a larger political influence, too.

To put it in WWII forms, chemical weapons are like the V1/V2 weapon programs. They were not militarily successful or useful, and the amount of resources poured into them could have been used for much better weapons. However, they did mean that the Allies had to react to their presence, since they were terror weapons, and politically they couldn’t ignore them, even though it would have made military sense, in many cases, to do so.

251 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:10:30pm

re: #248 marjoriemoon

Give them enough money, guns, ammo, jets, whatever Israel wants, whatever they need to lay Syria/Hizzbolah flat right out of the gate would be fine. Better yet, destroy their entire arsenal. If they build it again? Destroy it again and so on and so on.

Preach it, sister!!

252 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:10:39pm

re: #246 Buck

Yes, if we acted with Israel’s restraint we would probably be a lot better off.

253 lawhawk  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:12:35pm

re: #237 darthstar

Well then, the Syrians and Iranians will be polite enough to wait in turn… /

254 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:13:15pm

re: #250 Obdicut

Dear god I’m glad I don’t pay for commas. Apologies for the awkwardness of that post.

255 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:17:30pm

re: #250 Obdicut

I’m not discounting it— that’s what makes them good terror weapons. They definitely have a larger political influence, too.

To put it in WWII forms, chemical weapons are like the V1/V2 weapon programs. They were not militarily successful or useful, and the amount of resources poured into them could have been used for much better weapons. However, they did mean that the Allies had to react to their presence, since they were terror weapons, and politically they couldn’t ignore them, even though it would have made military sense, in many cases, to do so.

The V1 and V2 were rocket weapons that used conventional explosives. They were terror weapons but they did not use WMDs. Hitler did not allow the use of chemical weapons on the battlefield during WWII, partly because he did not want German soldiers to suffer as he had (he had been blinded by mustard gas during WWI).

256 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:18:09pm

re: #247 webevintage

Yep.
Moron.
Drunk?

Maybe. If not, then he’s just plain stupid.

257 windsagio  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:19:31pm

re: #245 marjoriemoon

Because frankly, especially given the other stuff we’re doing right now, I think we can’t afford it.

Also, they’ve proven themselves perfectly capable of handling it themselves.

258 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:19:49pm

re: #255 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, I know— I meant that they are the equivalent of chemical weapons in the modern day, since the were:

A) Incredibly expensive to make
B) Incredibly difficult to make
C) Ineffective in cost-comparison to already existing conventional technology
D) Nonetheless effective as a terror weapon that demanded a political response.

259 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:22:42pm

re: #257 windsagio

Because frankly, especially given the other stuff we’re doing right now, I think we can’t afford it.

Also, they’ve proven themselves perfectly capable of handling it themselves.

If you think that the Arabs and Persians attacking Israel would be quiet and friendly if Israel wasn’t a concern, I have some swamp land in the Everglades I haven’t been able to get rid of. For you? It’s a super deal :)

260 McSpiff  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:22:51pm

re: #236 Aceofwhat?

Because they stand for the same things that we do. And their enemies are terrorists. It doesn’t get much simpler for me, on the world stage, to pick sides.

And we don’t need to send a bunch of troops over there. In my mind it’s more like playing the bouncer at a fight where your friend is about to kick ass, making sure no one hits him from behind. We’re there to tell the Egypts of the world to be very, very quiet IMHO…

You’re making an awful lot of sense today…

261 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:23:08pm

gotta jet… bbl

262 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:23:51pm

re: #258 Obdicut

Yeah, I know— I meant that they are the equivalent of chemical weapons in the modern day, since the were:

A) Incredibly expensive to make
B) Incredibly difficult to make
C) Ineffective in cost-comparison to already existing conventional technology
D) Nonetheless effective as a terror weapon that demanded a political response.

Though the V1 did have some military effect. It’s use caused the Allies to redeploy fighter squadrons to shoot them down. The V-weapons also motivated the Allies to attack in Holland (the ill-fated Operation Market Garden), rather than giving priority to the US Third Army in Lorraine.

264 Aceofwhat?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:24:41pm

re: #260 McSpiff

You’re making an awful lot of sense today…

broken clock syndrome!

(thanks, btw)

265 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:27:39pm

re: #262 Dark_Falcon

Yeah— that’s what I mean about it having a political effect. The political effect then had a military effect. However, that was still an option, it wasn’t a forgeone conclusion. The Allies could have taken the hard line that strong steel ramps are pretty hard to destroy, and that supporting Patton’s advance would shorten the duration that V1 attacks would occur since it would shorten the entire war.

I know Ike strongly supported Market Garden; I still feel it was very much the wrong decision, not just because of Monty vs. Patton and my estimation of their abilities, but from a purely military perspective. But I’m just an armchair dude.

266 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:30:15pm

re: #265 Obdicut

Yeah— that’s what I mean about it having a political effect. The political effect then had a military effect. However, that was still an option, it wasn’t a forgeone conclusion. The Allies could have taken the hard line that strong steel ramps are pretty hard to destroy, and that supporting Patton’s advance would shorten the duration that V1 attacks would occur since it would shorten the entire war.

I know Ike strongly supported Market Garden; I still feel it was very much the wrong decision, not just because of Monty vs. Patton and my estimation of their abilities, but from a purely military perspective. But I’m just an armchair dude.

Me too, but its good talking to someone who actually understands that time and the issues in play. Another reason you’re great to have around, Obi.

267 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:31:57pm

re: #266 Dark_Falcon

Thanks. I strongly recommend the Oppenheimer biography that I’m reading, too— American Prometheus. A really interesting look at one of the most important projects of the war, and the man behind it.

268 tradewind  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:33:58pm

If Syria’s giving missiles to Hez, (what a disappointment..), it will be up to Israel to take them out. It’s not as if we would do anything to help….. after all, Netanyahu is still in time out.

269 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 12:59:38pm

This news is deeply upsetting.

Iran’s play though their ally Syria and their proxy Hezbollah is to obviously threaten the civilians of Israel with bombardment, should Israel try to thwart Iran’s atomic weapons ambitions.

This was made possible by a confluence of events.

1. Olmert’s refusal to actually go into Lebanon and clean out Hezbollah when he had the full support of an American Administration to do so. Leaving an undefeated enemy on one’s flank is never a good idea. This is not some form of armchair generalship, this is common sense and a fact of history.

2. The continual demonization of Israel in the international media. Few people will care if Jews get murdered by those missiles.

3. The abject hold over the West, by the Islamic world caused by oil dependence. If we did not need oil, No government would long put up with the antics of the various Muslim dictatorships and theocracies of the Middle East.

4. The Iraq war. If we were not fighting that war now - either if we had not quite the first time (again, leaving an undefeated enemy on one’s flank is never a good idea) or if we had just left Saddam be contained, America would have the capacity to end this immediately and Iran would not see so much opportunity to control Iraqi affairs and further its influence on the region.

This is something that I blame not just on Bush, but also on every single Dem who voted for this unnecessary war. What has happened in Iraq was exactly what was predicted by everyone who was not in a blood lust after 9-11.

5. Obama. I do not want to be fair to him because he is playing fast and lose with the lives of Israelis and betraying one of our closest allies by not supporting them more firmly. However, I will be fair to him. Our military is over extended and our economy can not easily afford the drain of opening a third front. He has to worry about Pakistan if he really wants to end the conflict in Afghanistan, and Iran via diplomatic means because that is his best option. That means that many other interests, who could not give a damn if Israel lives or dies, like Russia and China become part of the picture.

6. In the mean time, Iran has never been bashful about their intentions and continues to march towards nuclear capability while the castrated and uncaring UN allows Iran to create a pincer around Israel through these missiles.

These are very dangerous times.

270 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 1:01:53pm

re: #269 LudwigVanQuixote

PIMF

This news is deeply upsetting.

Iran’s play through their ally Syria and their proxy Hezbollah is to obviously threaten the civilians of Israel with bombardment, should Israel try to thwart Iran’s atomic weapons ambitions.

This was made possible by a confluence of events.

1. Olmert’s refusal to actually go into Lebanon and clean out Hezbollah when he had the full support of an American administration to do so. Leaving an undefeated enemy on one’s flank is never a good idea. This is not some form of armchair generalship, this is common sense, and a fact of history.

2. The continual demonization of Israel in the international media. Few people will care if Jews get murdered by those missiles.

3. The abject hold over the West, by the Islamic world caused by oil dependence. If we did not need oil, no government would long put up with the antics of the various Muslim dictatorships and theocracies of the Middle East.

4. The Iraq war. If we were not fighting that war now - either if we had not quite the first time (again, leaving an undefeated enemy on one’s flank is never a good idea) or if we had just left Saddam be contained, America would have the capacity to end this immediately and Iran would not see so much opportunity to control Iraqi affairs and further its influence on the region.

This is something that I blame not just on Bush, but also on every single Dem who voted for this unnecessary war. What has happened in Iraq was exactly what was predicted by everyone who was not in a blood lust after 9-11.

5. Obama. I do not want to be fair to him because he is playing fast and loose with the lives of Israelis and betraying one of our closest allies by not supporting them more firmly. However, I will be fair to him. Our military is over extended and our economy can not easily afford the drain of opening a third front. He has to worry about Pakistan if he really wants to end the conflict in Afghanistan, and Iran via diplomatic means because that is his best option. That means that many other interests, who could not give a damn if Israel lives or dies, like Russia and China become part of the picture.

6. In the mean time, Iran has never been bashful about their intentions and continues to march towards nuclear capability while the castrated and uncaring UN allows Iran to create a pincer around Israel through these missiles.

These are very dangerous times.

271 Decatur Deb  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 1:04:58pm

re: #269 LudwigVanQuixote

I rarely see anyone post a multi-point comment that doesn’t have some element that ruins it. That one is 8 to the plus.

272 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 1:25:21pm

re: #257 windsagio

The US can afford the expense.

273 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 1:34:38pm

re: #3 EmmmieG

Could you imagine if all this effort went into something worthwhile? The Middle East was once a place of learning. It could be again.

Beirut used to be a major tourist destination. They have an educated population, and could go into infotech and science, as Israel has. Lebanon could be a Muslim/Christian version of Israel if they could get their political/religious/tribal act together.

274 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 1:39:59pm

re: #271 Decatur Deb

I rarely see anyone post a multi-point comment that doesn’t have some element that ruins it. That one is 8 to the plus.

Thank you.

275 windsagio  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 2:15:37pm

re: #272 eclectic infidel

That might be a prejudiced source, as per its name.

276 Cato the Elder  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 2:16:28pm

re: #47 darthstar

Military action is not the answer. Honestly, I have no idea what the answer is, but I do believe that military action isn’t it. That strategy has been used for how many years now, and how successful has it been?

You plainly live on a planet filled with unicorns and maypoles, and children dancing with flowers in their hair, where no one ever attacks their neighbor.

Leave this one to the grownups.

277 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 2:54:30pm

re: #275 windsagio

That might be a prejudiced source, as per its name.

Only if you’re biased against AIPAC. That said though, the information was taken from the 2011 budget per the Obama Administration.

I’m sure you’re also aware that the majority of the aid that goes to Israel must be spent on US goods. I think the percentage is at 70% right now.

This is another red herring issue, in my opinion.

278 researchok  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 3:13:03pm

re: #276 Cato the Elder

You plainly live on a planet filled with unicorns and maypoles, and children dancing with flowers in their hair, where no one ever attacks their neighbor.

Leave this one to the grownups.

To paraphrase someone else, ‘Reality- what a concept’.

279 drool  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 3:24:24pm

I find it rather hard to believe. The Scud is a missile that requires quite a bit of infrastructure to run. It requires a surveyed launching site and fueling on the pad before launch. Saddam had quite a bit of trouble with them in a relatively big country. I do not see how you could hide all that stuff in Lebanon.

280 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 3:26:10pm

re: #270 LudwigVanQuixote

PIMF

This news is deeply upsetting.

Iran’s play through their ally Syria and their proxy Hezbollah is to obviously threaten the civilians of Israel with bombardment, should Israel try to thwart Iran’s atomic weapons ambitions.

This was made possible by a confluence of events.

1. Olmert’s refusal to actually go into Lebanon and clean out Hezbollah when he had the full support of an American administration to do so. Leaving an undefeated enemy on one’s flank is never a good idea. This is not some form of armchair generalship, this is common sense, and a fact of history.

2. The continual demonization of Israel in the international media. Few people will care if Jews get murdered by those missiles.

3. The abject hold over the West, by the Islamic world caused by oil dependence. If we did not need oil, no government would long put up with the antics of the various Muslim dictatorships and theocracies of the Middle East.

4. The Iraq war. If we were not fighting that war now - either if we had not quite the first time (again, leaving an undefeated enemy on one’s flank is never a good idea) or if we had just left Saddam be contained, America would have the capacity to end this immediately and Iran would not see so much opportunity to control Iraqi affairs and further its influence on the region.

This is something that I blame not just on Bush, but also on every single Dem who voted for this unnecessary war. What has happened in Iraq was exactly what was predicted by everyone who was not in a blood lust after 9-11.

5. Obama. I do not want to be fair to him because he is playing fast and loose with the lives of Israelis and betraying one of our closest allies by not supporting them more firmly. However, I will be fair to him. Our military is over extended and our economy can not easily afford the drain of opening a third front. He has to worry about Pakistan if he really wants to end the conflict in Afghanistan, and Iran via diplomatic means because that is his best option. That means that many other interests, who could not give a damn if Israel lives or dies, like Russia and China become part of the picture.

6. In the mean time, Iran has never been bashful about their intentions and continues to march towards nuclear capability while the castrated and uncaring UN allows Iran to create a pincer around Israel through these missiles.

These are very dangerous times.

This will be Obama’s big test, as forecast by his veep.
For starters, Obama MUST IMMEDIATELY stop withholding delivery of whatever weaponry Israel needs - including the latest bunkerbusters.

281 Spare O'Lake  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 3:27:57pm

re: #279 drool

I find it rather hard to believe. The Scud is a missile that requires quite a bit of infrastructure to run. It requires a surveyed launching site and fueling on the pad before launch. Saddam had quite a bit of trouble with them in a relatively big country. I do not see how you could hide all that stuff in Lebanon.

Saddam’s scuds hit Tel Aviv. Israel took the hits without retaliating…at the insistence of the US.

282 CDRealist  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 3:41:55pm

This doesn’t affect the idea that Hezbollah getting scuds is a bad thing, but it’s not because they are ballistic missiles. The Katyusha rockets they already have are also ballistic missiles. Ballistic just means that it is not guided during flight.

A ballistic missile is shot into the air and then follows a parabola to its target. Cruise missiles, heat-seeking missiles, radar-guided missiles, and wire-guided missiles are all able to change course after launch, which a ballistic missile is not. It comes from the Latin word for sling, as in the course a rock follows when thrown with a sling.

Bullets, fireworks, thrown rocks, and the Atlas missile are all examples of ballistic missiles. They can have several thrust stages.

283 What, me worry?  Wed, Apr 21, 2010 6:38:00pm

re: #272 eclectic infidel

The US can afford the expense.

Oooo that is heartening, isn’t it! What a great find! Thanks!

Did Congress ever allow funding to the P.A. and is it ongoing?

284 Zendette  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 3:16:13am

re: #279 drool
Two SCUDs were just fired from Sinai, towards Eilat. Possibly hit Aqaba, Jordan in error. I wonder how they manged to hide them out in the desert. Apparently it isn’t that difficult.

285 26charlie  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 6:20:26am

re: #15 Locker

“I hope we didn’t pawn that POS Patriot off on them. Didn’t do much for us vs SCUDs.”
””“”“”“”“”“”“”“”

Its in the video record somewhere — After george herbert bush boasted an almost 100% patriot success rate (while at the patriot factory - to secure more funding), the israeli defence minister followed up to say the patriot had a 100% failure rate. Makes sense they’d deploy something of their own.

286 26charlie  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 8:03:44am

re: #16 Cannadian Club Akbar

My first bet would be this will be found to be false intel.

But if true, it would be very difficult to hide a scud - and if one was launched, it wouldn’t be able to match the destructive power of one, 2kton bomb dropped by an f-16. IOW, it wouldn’t be much worse that the smaller rockets - and they’d be lucky to launch more than a few. The f-16 would hit it’s target (that apartment building, etc) while the scud is unpredictable and could even fall in an arab neighborhood.

Its unpredictability is what gives it a higher terror factor.
This makes me wonder something: Would civilians feel less frightened if they knew the scuds landed exactly where they were aimed (at military targets) such as how the iraqis were projected to feel about smart bombs landing in baghdad?

287 26charlie  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 8:28:05am

re: #276 Cato the Elder
” Military action is not the answer. Honestly, I have no idea what the answer is, but I do believe that military action isn’t it. That strategy has been used for how many years now, and how successful has it been?

“You plainly live on a planet filled with unicorns and maypoles, and children dancing with flowers in their hair, where no one ever attacks their neighbor.
Leave this one to the grownups.”
””“”“”“”“”“”“

Grown ups would be those who can consider the question asked here - how successful has violence been in the ME? Its the adolescents who still act on emotions and haven’t yet achieved an understanding that violence begets violence. The grown ups need to be given a chance here, but that cant happen as long as the electorate are led to believe what has failed throughout history will be different tomorrow, using the same failed strategies. They’ll never grow up.

288 Bob Levin  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 11:47:30am

re: #287 26charlie

Could you be more specific? I have no idea what you’re referring to. The problems in the Middle East began after WW ONE. Which is even before the creation of the State of Israel. And it’s not like the Middle East was one big happy family during the Ottoman rule.

289 Bob Levin  Thu, Apr 22, 2010 11:54:41am

re: #287 26charlie

Its the adolescents who still act on emotions and haven’t yet achieved an understanding that violence begets violence.

Um, Japan and Germany haven’t been violent since the end of WWII. Wars end, history does move on. France and England are no longer at war, the US and England are no longer at war. Russia and Japan are no longer at war, nor are China and Japan. In fact, there are plenty of examples in history of violence stopping violence.


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