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1 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:07:20pm

That is awesome.

2 Four More Tears  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:07:37pm

"America! F*uck Yeah!"

3 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:07:58pm

I repeat my thoughts from last night.

I will never get tired of watching Jon Stewart dancing in tune with a gospel quire chanting "go f*** yourself"

4 darthstar  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:10:46pm

re: #2 JasonA

"America! F*uck Yeah!"

I love that video

5 deadletterboy  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:11:09pm

I caught this last night, and I agree with jamesfirecat. Stewart's dance skills are pretty impressive.
Hilarious.

6 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:11:31pm

Southparkstudios.com has removed the video of "Super Best Friends" from their site and they have not released Episode 201.

And another thing that really pisses me off:

It's in all the style books that Muhammed has to be referenced as "The Prophet Muhammed" but these same media outlets will never say "The Lawgiver Moses" or "The Lord and Savior Jesus Christ"

7 Buck  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:15:01pm

re: #6 Alouette

Southparkstudios.com has removed the video of "Super Best Friends" from their site and they have not released Episode 201.

And another thing that really pisses me off:

It's in all the style books that Muhammed has to be referenced as "The Prophet Muhammed" but these same media outlets will never say "The Lawgiver Moses" or "The Lord and Savior Jesus Christ"

We are working on getting "the Lizard Charles" in the style books...

8 Kragar  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:15:22pm

Ridley Scott Finally Reveals Details on His New Alien Prequel

"It's set in 2085, about 30 years before Sigourney [Weaver's character Ellen Ripley]. It's fundamentally about going out to find out 'Who the hell was that Space Jockey?' The guy who was sitting in the chair in the alien vehicle — there was a giant fellow sitting in a seat on what looked to be either a piece of technology or an astronomer's chair. Remember that?"

"And our man [Tom Skerritt as Captain Dallas] climbs up and says 'There's been an explosion in his chest from the inside out — what was that?' I'm basically explaining who that Space Jockey — we call him the Space Jockey — I'm explaining who the space jockeys were."

9 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:17:22pm

re: #6 Alouette

Southparkstudios.com has removed the video of "Super Best Friends" from their site and they have not released Episode 201.

And another thing that really pisses me off:

It's in all the style books that Muhammed has to be referenced as "The Prophet Muhammed" but these same media outlets will never say "The Lawgiver Moses" or "The Lord and Savior Jesus Christ"

I would go with 'Moshe Rabbenu'.

10 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:18:14pm

re: #7 Buck

We are working on getting "the Lizard Charles" in the style books...

The 'Lizard-in-Chief Charles', thank you very much.

11 darthstar  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:18:58pm

re: #8 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ridley Scott Finally Reveals Details on His New Alien Prequel

Alien scared the living crap out of me when I first saw it...of course, it was summer time, so I went to the movie wearing shorts, and happened to sit beneath the air conditioner, so during that long rainy scene at the start, I was freezing my ass off, and by the time the alien was doing her shit, I was already fairly compromised physically.

12 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:19:03pm

re: #6 Alouette

Southparkstudios.com has removed the video of "Super Best Friends" from their site and they have not released Episode 201.

And another thing that really pisses me off:

It's in all the style books that Muhammed has to be referenced as "The Prophet Muhammed" but these same media outlets will never say "The Lawgiver Moses" or "The Lord and Savior Jesus Christ"

Maybe that's because there are a lot of people named Muhammed, but not that many people named Moses or Jesus, and for example they don't expect us to confuse the son of God with that sex offender from The Big Lebowski.

13 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:20:05pm

I am all for a tolerant society, however, there is absolutely no need to tolerate intolerance. That's where my tolerance ends.

14 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:21:04pm

re: #13 Fozzie Bear

I am all for a tolerant society, however, there is absolutely no need to tolerate intolerance. That's where my tolerance ends.

My tolerance ends where my (and others') structural integrity begins.

15 Still not a hampster  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:21:20pm

That was a perfect response except it missed the "warrant for your arrest" for inciting violence and making a criminal threat and it's missing the "serving you papers to sue your asses off" that should also be a response to the threats.

"Revolution Muslim" is in New York, how hard could it be to screw the fuckers in court?

17 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:22:58pm

re: #7 Buck

We are working on getting "the Lizard Charles" in the style books...

That's "The Lizard Overlord Charles"

18 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:23:19pm

re: #16 darthstar

Want to know how many chickens to bring with you when you go to the doctor? This handy calculator will help you.

I think, based on supermarket prices, five chickens is too much to ask for a flu shot.

19 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:23:47pm

re: #17 Alouette

That's "The Lizard Overlord Charles"

Lord of the Lizards?

20 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:23:58pm

Very cool how he pointed out so accurately that Revolution Muslim is the enemy. Thanks John for getting it right.

21 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:24:24pm
22 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:24:52pm

re: #20 Thanos

Very cool how he pointed out so accurately that Revolution Muslim is the enemy. Thanks John for getting it right.

Does anyone else keep flashing on Dance Dance Revolution whenever the name of this pathetic outfit is mentioned?

23 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:26:49pm

Damn! My doctor is a vegetarian. HELP I NEED MORE VEGGIES MY KIDS ARE SICK

24 Renaissance_Man  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:27:40pm

re: #18 SanFranciscoZionist

I think, based on supermarket prices, five chickens is too much to ask for a flu shot.

Five chickens includes medical assistant and receptionist wages. Not all of them take eggs, apparently.

25 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:27:57pm

re: #23 Fozzie Bear

Damn! My doctor is a vegetarian. HELP I NEED MORE VEGGIES MY KIDS ARE SICK

Huh. Bags of lentils? Artichokes?

26 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:27:59pm

re: #22 SanFranciscoZionist

I like Dance dance counter-revolution myself >>

27 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:28:03pm

re: #10 SanFranciscoZionist

The 'Lizard-in-Chief Charles', thank you very much.

Aka Space Pope

28 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:28:44pm

re: #24 Renaissance_Man

Five chickens includes medical assistant and receptionist wages. Not all of them take eggs, apparently.

Is this based on the scene in "Best Little Whorehouse in Texas", where they explain how the Chicken Ranch got its name?

29 subsailor68  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:29:38pm

re: #24 Renaissance_Man

Five chickens includes medical assistant and receptionist wages. Not all of them take eggs, apparently.

Now you tell me! My wife took a dozen eggs with her to the fertility clinic.

30 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:29:45pm

Watching this now. Great stuff.

31 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:30:11pm

I want that song as my ringtone.

32 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:31:34pm

re: #22 SanFranciscoZionist

Does anyone else keep flashing on Dance Dance Revolution whenever the name of this pathetic outfit is mentioned?

I thought it was just me.

33 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:33:09pm

re: #16 darthstar

Want to know how many chickens to bring with you when you go to the doctor? This handy calculator will help you.

From a reader of TPM

I just went to my doctor's office for a sinus/ear infection. I had never seen this particular physician before and certainly didn't bring up politics with him, but as I was about to pay my bill, he volunteered, "We take cash, check, credit or debit card. No chickens." I'm in Indiana, mind you. I think Sue Lowden is in real trouble if even random doctors in Indiana are mocking her to near-total strangers.

The Year of the Chicken

Haha!

34 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:34:13pm

re: #28 SanFranciscoZionist

Is this based on the scene in "Best Little Whorehouse in Texas", where they explain how the Chicken Ranch got its name?

No the Republican Front runner in Nevada Sue Lowden suggested that what American needed wasn't government oversight into the healthcare system, because ordinary people can get buy through bartering with their doctors, and then just to make it 100% clear that she didn't mean to say "bargaining" which would have been mildly more sane, explained how in the olden days people could get their bones fixed and pay a doctor with a chicken or by painting their house if they didn't have money....

35 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:34:20pm

Something closely related:

Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions

This TED talk is something that I could have written. Sam Harris argues that yes, even in matters of faith, rationality must prevail, and that yes it is possible to find the correct answer to certain moral questions.

He posits that yes indeed some "moral" views are simply wrong by objective and rational standards and makes a very proper case for why reasonable people should not tolerate them - even in the context of acknowledging that there might be many possible different "correct" moral views.

His analogy is pretty spot on. If you take a measure of human fulfillment, maximal social and personal happiness, productivity and achievement, there may be many paradigms that get you there. However, do not let that blind you to the reality that there are also very many paradigms for misery and that all ethical systems are NOT equal.

36 SpaceJesus  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:34:40pm

re: #27 goddamnedfrank

Aka Space Pope


hmmm

37 Renaissance_Man  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:38:06pm

re: #28 SanFranciscoZionist

Is this based on the scene in "Best Little Whorehouse in Texas", where they explain how the Chicken Ranch got its name?

Indeed, I have been wondering if the 'more simple time' Ms. Lowden and her livestock-based economy plan wasn't heavily based on movies like that.

38 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:39:05pm

re: #36 SpaceJesus

hmmm

Don't let that Lizard Pope intimidate you! Remember that line about upon this Lizard Rock I shall build my church?
He works for you SJ!
/

39 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:39:23pm

re: #37 Renaissance_Man

We always say all politicians are whores right?

40 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:41:35pm

re: #39 windsagio

We always say all politicians are whores right?

No, I don't. Some are pimps and madames. Others are simply leather gimps.

41 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:42:33pm

re: #40 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah, I forgot about the Dems and their "Please sir, may I have another?" fetish >>

42 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:42:56pm

re: #35 LudwigVanQuixote

Something closely related:

Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions


[Video]This TED talk is something that I could have written. Sam Harris argues that yes, even in matters of faith, rationality must prevail, and that yes it is possible to find the correct answer to certain moral questions.

He posits that yes indeed some "moral" views are simply wrong by objective and rational standards and makes a very proper case for why reasonable people should not tolerate them - even in the context of acknowledging that there might be many possible different "correct" moral views.

His analogy is pretty spot on. If you take a measure of human fulfillment, maximal social and personal happiness, productivity and achievement, there may be many paradigms that get you there. However, do not let that blind you to the reality that there are also very many paradigms for misery and that all ethical systems are NOT equal.

Good point. It helps provide a hammer to use of relativists who refuse to acknowledge absolutes. I'm favoriting this post of that purpose.

43 Renaissance_Man  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:43:03pm

re: #39 windsagio

We always say all politicians are whores right?

In the words of the ever-quotable PJ O'Rourke, 'all parliaments are Parliaments of Whores. However, in a democracy, the whores are us.'

44 subsailor68  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:43:17pm

re: #39 windsagio

We always say all politicians are whores right?

Well, they did own the Mustang Ranch for awhile. (But I think a federal judge told them they couldn't run it. Still not sure whether that was an official opinion from the bench or just a general observation on his part."

;-)

45 Ericus58  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:43:34pm

Hey, what does CAIR think of this?

"Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, characterized Revolution Muslim as a loosely-organized group with such outrageous beliefs he believes it may be a "setup" to smear Islam.

"They say wild and irresponsible things periodically," Hooper told FoxNews.com. "There's a strong suspicion that they're merely a setup to make Muslims and Islam look bad. They say such wild and crazy things that you have to wonder.""

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Oh yeah......

46 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:43:53pm

re: #44 subsailor68

Wait, what?

47 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:44:21pm

That made me very happy.

We have a common enemy and it ain't Barack Obama.

Our common enemy ain't George Bush.

It is people who would threaten death in the name of religion... We can work our political differences out.

48 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:44:28pm

re: #43 Renaissance_Man

In the words of the ever-quotable PJ O'Rourke, 'all parliaments are Parliaments of Whores. However, in a democracy, the whores are us.'

We have f***ed the harlot and he is us!

49 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:44:59pm

re: #45 Ericus58

Its a plot!

The execs of Comedy Central are sick and tired of Parker/Stone, and this is their way oF destroying them!

50 subsailor68  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:45:03pm

re: #46 windsagio

Wait, what?

Kind of a riff on an old urban legend:

Feds and Mustang Ranch

51 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:45:49pm

re: #43 Renaissance_Man

Fighting... my... inner... officiousness!

52 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:46:17pm

re: #45 Ericus58

Hey, what does CAIR think of this?

"Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, characterized Revolution Muslim as a loosely-organized group with such outrageous beliefs he believes it may be a "setup" to smear Islam.

"They say wild and irresponsible things periodically," Hooper told FoxNews.com. "There's a strong suspicion that they're merely a setup to make Muslims and Islam look bad. They say such wild and crazy things that you have to wonder.""

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Oh yeah...

Wasn't a good defense for the tea baggers, isn't a good defense now.

How about just a plain old fashioned full throated (poor choice of words?) denounciation for the way these people are twisting what you believe in into something ugly?

53 researchok  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:47:30pm

re: #45 Ericus58

Hey, what does CAIR think of this?

"Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, characterized Revolution Muslim as a loosely-organized group with such outrageous beliefs he believes it may be a "setup" to smear Islam.

"They say wild and irresponsible things periodically," Hooper told FoxNews.com. "There's a strong suspicion that they're merely a setup to make Muslims and Islam look bad. They say such wild and crazy things that you have to wonder.""

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Oh yeah...

Along the same lines, I wonder who CAIR really represents.

54 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:48:52pm

re: #23 Fozzie Bear

Damn! My doctor is a vegetarian. HELP I NEED MORE VEGGIES MY KIDS ARE SICK

Huh?

55 Lidane  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:49:33pm

Yeesh. What's with all the crazy in Arizona these days?

Arizona militia recruiting veterans with ‘kill records’ to patrol border

According to KOLD Channel 5 News in Arizona, local militiaman Bill Davis is recruiting “combat veterans, with kill records, to camp out and patrol” along the U.S.-Mexico border. “If it comes to when shots are fired in the general direction of these guys, they have my authorization to return fire, if they’re in defense of their life or their buddy next to them, return fire, stop it as fast as it starts, and they’re capable of it,” Davis told reporters. Despite a warning from Santa Cruz County Sheriff Tony Estrada that the militia’s plan is “very dangerous” and “very risky,” Davis is pressing forward.

And of course, the Nazis at Stormfront are pleased about this:

[Link: 74.125.113.132...]

56 Mark Pennington  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:50:22pm

This was a completely brilliant show, and highlights everything that makes Jon Stewart so special.

57 Charles Johnson  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:50:26pm

re: #45 Ericus58

Hey, what does CAIR think of this?

"Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, characterized Revolution Muslim as a loosely-organized group with such outrageous beliefs he believes it may be a "setup" to smear Islam.

"They say wild and irresponsible things periodically," Hooper told FoxNews.com. "There's a strong suspicion that they're merely a setup to make Muslims and Islam look bad. They say such wild and crazy things that you have to wonder.""

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Oh yeah...

Reminds me of the wingnuts who think every hateful or racist tea party sign is a librul plant.

58 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:51:28pm

I'll never forget Jon's first show back after 911.

59 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:51:34pm

re: #55 Lidane

It creeps me out that he thinks he can give people 'permission to fire'.

60 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:53:03pm

re: #45 Ericus58

Hey, what does CAIR think of this?

"Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, characterized Revolution Muslim as a loosely-organized group with such outrageous beliefs he believes it may be a "setup" to smear Islam.

"They say wild and irresponsible things periodically," Hooper told FoxNews.com. "There's a strong suspicion that they're merely a setup to make Muslims and Islam look bad. They say such wild and crazy things that you have to wonder.""

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Oh yeah...

Similarly, all the Teepers with weirdly misspelled signs are leftist infiltrators.

61 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:53:08pm

re: #42 Dark_Falcon

Good point. It helps provide a hammer to use of relativists who refuse to acknowledge absolutes. I'm favoriting this post of that purpose.

What I like about the TED talk is pointing out that you can use the rationality that God gave you to solve moral issues when it appears that two moral imperatives are in conflict, and moreover, or perhaps most importantly, you can use facts logic and reason to say that this or that belief really is harmful. It becomes a call to arms to stop being an intellectual and moral wuss. If for instance you say that it is OK for someone to kill his raped daughter to preserve his "family honor", who are we to judge? If you say that you are contributing to her murder. You have every right to say that is evil and wrong and it really is.

Of necessity, relativism is the enemy of both science and faith.

Where science and faith intersect is by rejecting the notion that nothing is real.

Science and faith deal in absolute principles. Do not let the fact that we have limitations on determining the full details of those principles take away from the fact that we do posit an actual reality to the way things are or cloud the discussion with suggesting that those principles, whatever they actually are, are things that can be negotiated with.

Electrons behave in certain ways. You can't negotiate with one to make it act like a photon.

Faiths are built on principles too that are not negotiable. For instance the belief that there is actually something that is right or wrong on the first place, is a matter of faith. If you say thus and such is wrong - because it is - or thus and such is right - because it is, it is a statement of faith, in exactly the same way that rejecting that notion is also a statement of faith.

62 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:53:13pm

re: #59 windsagio

It creeps me out that he thinks he can give people 'permission to fire'.

Yeah, since when has your average every day American needed some high falutin fancy pant's say so to fire off their guns?

63 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:53:16pm

re: #45 Ericus58

Hey, what does CAIR think of this?

"Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, characterized Revolution Muslim as a loosely-organized group with such outrageous beliefs he believes it may be a "setup" to smear Islam.

"They say wild and irresponsible things periodically," Hooper told FoxNews.com. "There's a strong suspicion that they're merely a setup to make Muslims and Islam look bad. They say such wild and crazy things that you have to wonder.""

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Oh yeah...

That the same thing that teabaggers say and it deserves the same dismissive response.

64 Kragar  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:53:28pm

re: #59 windsagio

It creeps me out that he thinks he can give people 'permission to fire'.

But he's the Lustrous Potentate!

/

65 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:54:18pm

re: #61 LudwigVanQuixote

love it. good stuff.

66 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:55:45pm

OT...the Arizona Gov is going live soon to talk about that unseemly little immigration bill. Should be interesting...

67 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:55:52pm

re: #55 Lidane

Yeesh. What's with all the crazy in Arizona these days?

Arizona militia recruiting veterans with ‘kill records’ to patrol border


And of course, the Nazis at Stormfront are pleased about this:

[Link: 74.125.113.132...]

“If it comes to when shots are fired in the general direction of these guys, they have my authorization to return fire..."

Precisely what authority does this gentleman believe he has to give any such authorization?

68 Still not a hampster  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:56:13pm

re: #45 Ericus58

Hey, what does CAIR think of this?

"Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, characterized Revolution Muslim as a loosely-organized group with such outrageous beliefs he believes it may be a "setup" to smear Islam.

"They say wild and irresponsible things periodically," Hooper told FoxNews.com. "There's a strong suspicion that they're merely a setup to make Muslims and Islam look bad. They say such wild and crazy things that you have to wonder.""

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Oh yeah...

One the one hand he knows he's lying, but on the other hand we are to be congratulated. If this were Britain, the British versions of groups like this would be agreeing and making their own veiled threats.

America is much healthier and our Muslim organizations are much more worried.

o/ Yay!

69 wiffersnapper  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:57:27pm

Absolutely brilliant! He's said everything I've wanted to say but with comic effect! 5 stars Jon Stewart!

70 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:59:25pm

re: #68 Still not a hampster

One the one hand he knows he's lying, but on the other hand we are to be congratulated. If this were Britain, the British versions of groups like this would be agreeing and making their own veiled threats.

America is much healthier and our Muslim organizations are much more worried. less likely to riot.

o/ Yay!

fixed.

And good on us for treating the average Muslim on the street with more respect than they see across many European countries.

71 Kragar  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:59:25pm

I had to reload the page and while the ads were loading, my antivirus popped 3 times.

72 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:59:36pm
Officials: New York subway terror suspect pleads guilty

Zarein Ahmedzay pleaded guilty Friday to terrorism charges stemming from his role in an al-Qaeda plot to "conduct coordinated suicide bombings" on New York’s subway system in September 2009, the Justice Department said in a statement.

Prosecutors say Ahmedzay and another man, Adis Medunjanin, conspired with Najibullah Zazi on the attack in mid-September 2009.

Ahmedzay, 25, pleaded guilty to the following charges: Conspiracy to use a weapon of mass of destruction in the U.S.; conspiracy to commit murder in a foreign country; and providing material support to a foreign terrorist organization, namely al Qaeda. Ahmedzay faces a maximum sentence of life in prison.

"I strongly urge the American people to stop supporting the war against Islam," Ahmedzay said. During Ahmedzay's hearing, prosecutors for the first time revealed the name of the two al Qaeda leaders who ordered the plot - Saleh al-Somali, head of international operations for al Qaeda, and Rashid Rauf, a key operative.

Something to do with Islam.

73 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 12:59:39pm

re: #59 windsagio

It creeps me out that he thinks he can give people 'permission to fire'.

Yes, that fellow clearly things he has the right to order combat actions. It would seem a good time for US Amry units to head west from Texas and teach this fellow something about proper orders and chain of command. This sort of militia type needs to be hammered hard before they kill someone.

74 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:00:00pm

re: #45 Ericus58

Hey, what does CAIR think of this?

"Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, characterized Revolution Muslim as a loosely-organized group with such outrageous beliefs he believes it may be a "setup" to smear Islam.

"They say wild and irresponsible things periodically," Hooper told FoxNews.com. "There's a strong suspicion that they're merely a setup to make Muslims and Islam look bad. They say such wild and crazy things that you have to wonder.""

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

Oh yeah...

Because no other extremist Muslim group would ever say such things? The chutzpah of these cretins never fails to astonish me.

One message that we hear repeatedly from Muslims who claim falsely to represent all Islam is:

If you do this or do that or don't submit to us, we will kill you and your wife and kids!

There sure are a lot who not only say that, but back those words up with violent action. I am sorry. Sderot, 9-11, 7/7 and decapitation porn are messages that are brutally clear. The list of suicide bombings, honor killings and other casual brutalities of the Jihadi and world and the Islamist world is simply too long to ignore. Please note how I phrased that. I said Islamist and Jihadi, NOT Islamic. NOT all Muslims are violent Islamists.

On the other hand, we have the speakers for Islam, wanting to tell us that we are somehow getting the message of the Jihadis wrong.

No they were very clear.

75 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:00:20pm
76 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:01:17pm

re: #45 Ericus58

It's just as bullshit an excuse when Muslims do it as when any other group does it.

And it's not like you can't go out and find, right now, people-- sometimes well-educated people-- who will say Rushdie should die.

I think a much better explanation would have been that yes, they are Muslims, and yes, they are acting reprehensibly, and they are anathema, rejected from the company of other Muslims, for it.

77 Kragar  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:01:29pm

re: #75 SanFranciscoZionist

For the stylish tea partier...

The model needs some fashions tips. Her colors were all wrong.

78 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:01:54pm

re: #57 Charles

Reminds me of the wingnuts who think every hateful or racist tea party sign is a librul plant.

It's the same play. No true Scotsman mixed with sewing confusion. You give your own folks a bromide while deflecting criticism.

79 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:02:28pm

re: #70 Aceofwhat?

Random thought: Wonder if the 2 things are linked?

80 subsailor68  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:02:54pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

Yes, that fellow clearly things he has the right to order combat actions. It would seem a good time for US Amry units to head west from Texas and teach this fellow something about proper orders and chain of command. This sort of militia type needs to be hammered hard before they kill someone.

Well, if this crap ever starts up in Texas, I vote we send this guy:

Joaquin Jackson

81 Ericus58  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:03:36pm

re: #75 SanFranciscoZionist

For the stylish tea partier...

she's a Freakin' Zombie!!!

82 cliffster  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:03:50pm

Lane Bryant Says ABC, Fox Censored Plus-Size Lingerie Commercial


"ABC and Fox have made the decision to define beauty for you by denying our new, groundbreaking Cacique commercial from airing freely on their networks," Lane Bryant says.

According to the company, ABC "restricted our airtime" by denying it a slot during "Dancing with the Stars," while Fox "demanded excessive re-edits and rebuffed it three times before relenting to air it during the final 10 minutes of 'American Idol,' but only after we threatened to pull the ad buy."

I don't know, but I've been told
big-legged woman ain't got no soul...

83 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:04:00pm

re: #79 windsagio

Random thought: Wonder if the 2 things are linked?

i have no idea what you're talking about;)

84 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:04:33pm

re: #81 Ericus58

she's a Freakin' Zombie!!!

OK, OK! I like this jewelry company, and they happened to have a Tea Party set!

I'm sorry the model's lipstick shade is, well, hideous.

//

85 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:04:47pm
Security Brief: 'Home-grown jihadists' a growing headache for FBI

The recent rash of cases involving alleged or admitted “American jihadists” has caused anxiety among U.S. counterterrorism officials. The suspects’ U.S. citizenship or permanent residency makes travel easier, making them very attractive recruits for jihadist groups. And the very different backgrounds of those arrested or convicted in recent months means a profile of the typical homegrown radical is not easy to compile.

But counterterrorism officials have long seen this threat coming. In 2007, the New York Police Department issued a detailed report warning that "homegrown radicalization" was destined to become a major terrorist threat.

And last fall, Mitch Silber, who runs intelligence analysis for the NYPD, said that in the previous year, U.S. authorities had uncovered nine plots in which “home-grown radicalization” played a part. In several instances, people who had traveled abroad to carry out “jihad” had instead refocused their plans on the United States.

[Link: news.blogs.cnn.com...]

Radical Islam is the enemy right here in the US of A.

86 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:05:04pm

re: #82 cliffster

Lane Bryant Says ABC, Fox Censored Plus-Size Lingerie Commercial

I don't know, but I've been told
big-legged woman ain't got no soul...

The women in that commercial are NOT plus-sized. they are perfect.

that is all.

87 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:05:26pm

re: #85 Spare O'Lake

Radical Islam is the enemy right here in the US of A.

Well, it's AN enemy.

88 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:05:31pm

re: #72 Spare O'Lake

Something to do with Islam.

He should be given life. He's a hard-core Islamist and they should be imprisoned for as long as is lawful.

89 Kragar  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:05:52pm

re: #84 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, OK! I like this jewelry company, and they happened to have a Tea Party set!

I'm sorry the model's lipstick shade is, well, hideous.

//

Unless you work at a circus, bright red should never be used.

90 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:06:03pm

re: #72 Spare O'Lake

[Link: news.blogs.cnn.com...]

(Link for previous post omitted)

91 cliffster  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:06:05pm

re: #86 Aceofwhat?

The women in that commercial are NOT plus-sized. they are perfect.

that is all.

damn right

92 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:06:07pm

re: #87 SanFranciscoZionist

Damn you beat me to it.

93 webevintage  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:06:18pm

re: #16 darthstar

Want to know how many chickens to bring with you when you go to the doctor? This handy calculator will help you.

hahahahahahaha
My husband and I were talking about that idiotic idea last night and he wondered how many chickens would have paid for his prostate cancer treatment.
Now we know...3514*

*but I might argue the point since in the end the real bill (that which a person without any insurance would be billed) was over $100,000 and with BC/BS discounts it came out to somewhere around $70,000. Luckily that was the year we had the "good" insurance and only have to pay around $5000.

94 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:06:24pm

re: #88 Dark_Falcon

He should be given life. He's a hard-core Islamist and they should be imprisoned for as long as is lawful.

Anyone who is unrepentant of their crime, imho, deserves the max. That would include all radical Islamists...

95 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:07:13pm

re: #88 Dark_Falcon

I think I understand what you're trying to say, but your post tends to imply that they should be imprisoned for their religious beliefs, and that's something we just don't do >

96 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:07:33pm

re: #95 windsagio

#94. fixed!

97 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:08:04pm

re: #93 webevintage

how is he?

98 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:08:49pm

re: #82 cliffster

Lane Bryant Says ABC, Fox Censored Plus-Size Lingerie Commercial

I don't know, but I've been told
big-legged woman ain't got no soul...

99 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:08:50pm

re: #96 Aceofwhat?

Yeah thats somewhat better. I'll hold my rampant liberalist response to that in check ;)

100 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:09:03pm

re: #73 Dark_Falcon

Yes, that fellow clearly things he has the right to order combat actions. It would seem a good time for US Amry units to head west from Texas and teach this fellow something about proper orders and chain of command. This sort of militia type needs to be hammered hard before they kill someone.

Amen.

In other words if armed enemies of America do something stupid with their guns they need to be arrested and if they resist arrest, shot.

101 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:09:21pm

OT: You would think that this is a joke, I mean, it's just so damn funny.

But it's not. These people are being super seriously.

102 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:09:49pm

re: #85 Spare O'Lake

Radical Islam is the enemy right here in the US of A.

It is one of many. The militia Nazis are going giving it powerful competition.

103 webevintage  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:10:33pm

re: #55 Lidane

Yeesh. What's with all the crazy in Arizona these days?

Arizona militia recruiting veterans with ‘kill records’ to patrol border
“If it comes to when shots are fired in the general direction of these guys, they have my authorization to return fire, if they’re in defense of their life or their buddy next to them, return fire, stop it as fast as it starts, and they’re capable of it,” Davis told reporters.

Authorization?
Well who the fuck does he think he is?
Eric Cartman?

104 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:11:20pm

re: #13 Fozzie Bear

I am all for a tolerant society, however, there is absolutely no need to tolerate intolerance. That's where my tolerance ends.

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. -- Voltaire

105 lawhawk  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:11:26pm

re: #86 Aceofwhat?

Wait a sec, Leeloo is in that Lane Bryant video? Huh?

106 Four More Tears  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:11:40pm

Since we're on the topic of dangerous religion:
Church of Scientology blasts Russian government for ban on L. Ron Hubbard writings

I don't think banning books is a good thing, so let's get that out of the way, but I still find this funny as hell.

107 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:11:42pm
108 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:12:07pm

re: #95 windsagio

I think I understand what you're trying to say, but your post tends to imply that they should be imprisoned for their religious beliefs, and that's something we just don't do >

One can argue that when the religious beliefs are used to justify the crime, then that is all the more reason to remove from society.

Is there a difference between that and a pedophile who has arguments for molesting children? In the latter case we imprison both the pedophile and the practice of pedophilia.

109 Lidane  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:12:18pm
110 Joo-LiZ  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:12:24pm

re: #13 Fozzie Bear

re: #104 Joo-LiZ

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. -- Voltaire

I just realized that could be taken the wrong way -- this is in SUPPORT of what you are saying.

111 lawhawk  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:12:29pm

re: #103 webevintage

Well, you do have to respect Cartman's authoratay!

112 Ericus58  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:12:35pm

re: #84 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, OK! I like this jewelry company, and they happened to have a Tea Party set!

I'm sorry the model's lipstick shade is, well, hideous.

//

heh, it was the eye makeup that got my attention....

It's always the eyes.....

113 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:13:08pm

re: #108 Naso Tang

I can't quite believe that you are a) comparing a world religion to pedophilia, b) arguing that said religion should be banned.

Please tell me I'm mistaken >>

114 cliffster  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:13:28pm

re: #104 Joo-LiZ

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. -- Voltaire

Or was it Evelyn Beatrice Hall who said it?

115 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:13:36pm

re: #55 Lidane

Yeesh. What's with all the crazy in Arizona these days?

Arizona militia recruiting veterans with ‘kill records’ to patrol border

And of course, the Nazis at Stormfront are pleased about this:

[Link: 74.125.113.132...]

Militia enthusiasts have already killed a man and his 9 year old daughter in Arizona, last year.

116 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:13:51pm

re: #103 webevintage

Authorization?
Well who the fuck does he think he is?
Eric Cartman?

He wants the veterans with 'kill records' to respect his authoritah!

117 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:14:05pm

re: #95 windsagio

I think I understand what you're trying to say, but your post tends to imply that they should be imprisoned for their religious beliefs, and that's something we just don't do >

That's why I used the word lawful. If an Islamist has committed a crime for which it is lawful to imprison them, they should be imprisoned. It's not about their religion, its about their certainty that they are right in their actions and their utter lack of repentance.

118 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:14:36pm

re: #100 LudwigVanQuixote

Amen.

In other words if armed enemies of America do something stupid with their guns they need to be arrested and if they resist arrest, shot.

Quite Concur.

119 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:14:41pm

Slightly OT:

John Stewart asks John Hodgman how to solve the abuse crisis in the Catholic Church.

120 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:15:02pm

re: #116 SanFranciscoZionist

He wants the veterans with 'kill records' to respect his authoritah!

and join the confederacah!

121 Kragar  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:15:18pm

The militias should be smacked down hard, and violently if necessary. The justification is based on the basic politcial theory of a Monopoly on Violence.

Max Weber said in Politics as a Vocation that a necessary condition for an entity to be a state is that it retains such a monopoly. His definition was that something is "a 'state' if and insofar as its administrative staff successfully upholds a claim on the monopoly of the legitimate use of violence in the enforcement of its order."[1]

According to Weber, the state is the source of legitimacy for any use of violence. The police and the military are its main instruments, but this does not mean that only public force can be used: private force (as in private security) can be used too, as long as it has legitimacy derived from the state.

122 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:16:40pm

re: #108 Naso Tang

One can argue that when the religious beliefs are used to justify the crime, then that is all the more reason to remove from society.

Is there a difference between that and a pedophile who has arguments for molesting children? In the latter case we imprison both the pedophile and the practice of pedophilia.

i am now dumber for having read that post.

123 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:17:17pm

re: #86 Aceofwhat?

The women in that commercial are NOT plus-sized. they are perfect.

that is all.

MY ANACONDA DON'T. WANT. NONE. UNLESS. YOU'VE. GOT. BUNS. HUN!

124 Olsonist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:17:30pm

re: #117 Dark_Falcon

That's why I used the word lawful. If a Islamist sweet little old lady, anyone for that matter, has committed a crime for which it is lawful to imprison them, they should be imprisoned. It's not about their religion, its about their certainty that they are right in their actions and their utter lack of repentance.

FTFY

125 webevintage  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:17:35pm

Arrrggghhhh, storms all around me here in Arkansas.
I wish they would just move on though and get it over with.
I want rain.
I am not in the mood for a tornado.

(we actually went though one in 97' when 35 people died in the state from a really nasty day of ugh. We had an F3 hit us that has spun off from the F5 that went behind us in the meadow.)

126 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:18:06pm

re: #113 windsagio

I can't quite believe that you are a) comparing a every world religion to pedophilia, b) arguing that said religion should be banned.

Please tell me I'm mistaken >>

Crazy people have done crazy things in the name of almost anything you can imagine. That includes just about every religion that you can imagine.

127 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:18:08pm

re: #121 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Which is why many Muslim countries are so fundamentally unstable; many of them have religious control separate from the civil control. You have religious police along with the civil police-- the violence is not a monopoly of the state, but is shared by the religious leaders.

128 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:18:11pm

re: #87 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, it's AN enemy.

Lol we were typing that at nearly the same time I think.

On my theme of it is not just OK, but imperative, to say that some things really are right and others really are wrong, and on a level beyond mere opinion, I will repeat out that violent enemies of what is right sometimes need to be responded to harshly.

We must not discriminate when we do this. No one group is above sanction when they cross clear lines.

If you are some redneck who just loves the idea of shooting some Mexican to fulfill your ideas of "white pride" you are a monster and a violent one and you need to be treated much like we treat any dangerous animal. Put in a cage and trained to behave or put down.

The SAME applies to people who would murder their sister for family "honor" or murder cartoonists for criticizing the excesses of a violent culture.

The forces of craziness, fear, anger and loathing are rising up in myriad ways.

Yes, in the long run, education, love and rationalism are the ultimate answers. In the short run though, you simply can not get into a philosophical debate with someone who wants to pull a trigger. You have to defend yourself, your nation and the society of moral values if you are ever going to have a chance to spread peace and rationalism.

Their way is might makes right.

Our way is to point out that there are alternatives and that if forced to we will fight to keep those alternatives alive.

129 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:18:38pm

re: #113 windsagio

I can't quite believe that you are a) comparing a world religion to pedophilia, b) arguing that said religion should be banned.

Please tell me I'm mistaken >>

Yes you are mistaken on several counts. It is you who are suggesting, by a knee jerk, that all Muslims are in the same category as these terrorists, even while they claim they are not. Where did I say they be banned?

You are also suggesting that adding the word religion in front of perversion somehow accords it greater respect than some other perversion.

If a religious belief is used to justify murder then it is a perversion of a kind that is particularly dangerous, just like pedophilia, which we can't cure either.

Has your knee stopped jerking yet? :)

130 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:19:55pm

re: #107 Conservative Moonbat

This is disturbing.

That's extremely not good.

131 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:20:56pm

re: #101 Slumbering Behemoth

Who's idea was it to make the least attractive, dumbest Baldwin brother Jesus' spokesman? Kirk Cameron has more gravitas.

132 Kragar  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:21:04pm

re: #127 Obdicut

Which is why many Muslim countries are so fundamentally unstable; many of them have religious control separate from the civil control. You have religious police along with the civil police-- the violence is not a monopoly of the state, but is shared by the religious leaders.

The various faction in Palestine serve as a good example as well. As soon as Israel cuts a deal with one group, they splinter. The ones against the agreement keep fighting and the one for it say "What can we do? They're a different group."

133 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:22:26pm

re: #129 Naso Tang

Yes you are mistaken on several counts. It is you who are suggesting, by a knee jerk, that all Muslims are in the same category as these terrorists, even while they claim they are not. Where did I say they be banned?

You are also suggesting that adding the word religion in front of perversion somehow accords it greater respect than some other perversion.

If a religious belief is used to justify murder then it is a perversion of a kind that is particularly dangerous, just like pedophilia, which we can't cure either.

Has your knee stopped jerking yet? :)

Pedophilia IS the perversion, Aquinas. If i kill you in the name of grammatical purity, does that mean we ought to outlaw grammar?

good grief.

134 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:23:15pm

re: #107 Conservative Moonbat

This is disturbing.

It is a matter of time before the militia dirtbags or tea party freaks get violent.

People can only shout violent revolution and convince themselves that the government is out to kill them for so long before they believe it and do something violent.

When that happens the criminals who do it, must be put down so hard and so quickly that it puts some sense into the rest.

135 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:24:37pm

re: #84 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, OK! I like this jewelry company, and they happened to have a Tea Party set!

I'm sorry the model's lipstick shade is, well, hideous.

//

It looks like bad photoshop to me, like someone went into color blending mode to match the dress. The end result resembles something from the uncanny valley.

136 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:24:56pm

In all honesty?

If I (with my wife and children) lived near the Mexican border in Arizona? I'd probably be scared to death and armed to the teeth and ready to welcome anyone who would do harm to those that might harm me and mine with open arms.

From the reports that I hear (not just on Fox) it is a dangerous fucking place to be, and the problem ain't from the Amish.

137 Four More Tears  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:25:08pm

re: #101 Slumbering Behemoth

OT: You would think that this is a joke, I mean, it's just so damn funny.

But it's not. These people are being super seriously.

He's being compared to... to... Job? Doesn't Stephen have to suffer, like, a lot more before that even starts making sense?

138 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:25:36pm
139 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:26:07pm

re: #133 Aceofwhat?

Pedophilia IS the perversion, Aquinas. If i kill you in the name of grammatical purity, does that mean we ought to outlaw grammar?

good grief.

You are moving the goal posts. Good grief.

140 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:26:08pm

re: #137 JasonA

He's being compared to... to... Job? Doesn't Stephen have to suffer, like, a lot more before that even starts making sense?

Can we give him boils?

141 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:26:16pm

re: #133 Aceofwhat?

Naso never said that, two of you trying to imply he meant "all muslims" when referencing a particular terrorist is just bullshit.

142 Lidane  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:26:58pm

re: #107 Conservative Moonbat

This is disturbing.

It also guarantees I won't be setting foot in Arizona again anytime soon, especially as a Latina.

143 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:27:07pm

re: #136 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Really? I have friends in Arizona who mainly describe it as really quiet. Depends where you are, I guess.

144 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:27:16pm

re: #136 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

In all honesty?

If I (with my wife and children) lived near the Mexican border in Arizona? I'd probably be scared to death and armed to the teeth and ready to welcome anyone who would do harm to those that might harm me and mine with open arms.

From the reports that I hear (not just on Fox) it is a dangerous fucking place to be, and the problem ain't from the Amish.

You should welcome the Border Patrol, National Guard, and local sheriff, and be wary of anyone else you don't know personally.

145 cliffster  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:27:48pm

re: #136 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

In all honesty?

If I (with my wife and children) lived near the Mexican border in Arizona? I'd probably be scared to death and armed to the teeth and ready to welcome anyone who would do harm to those that might harm me and mine with open arms.

From the reports that I hear (not just on Fox) it is a dangerous fucking place to be, and the problem ain't from the Amish.

It's scary as hell. I have friends in Juarez and El Paso (Gringo Juarez) and it's out of control. A whole stretch of the border around there is like a little war zone, and it's kinda happening without a lot of fanfare on the news.

146 Four More Tears  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:28:00pm

re: #140 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Can we give him boils?

The Brick Testament - Job

147 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:28:35pm

re: #136 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

In all honesty?

If I (with my wife and children) lived near the Mexican border in Arizona? I'd probably be scared to death and armed to the teeth and ready to welcome anyone who would do harm to those that might harm me and mine with open arms.

From the reports that I hear (not just on Fox) it is a dangerous fucking place to be, and the problem ain't from the Amish.

That's true. IIRC, part of the stickiness is that they don't have a castle law like Florida, so there are a lot of people up in arms about a few cases where a citizen has lost a court case while defending their home. Damn shame...

Speaking of which - the Gov of Arizona goes live in 2 minutes...

148 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:28:41pm

re: #136 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

One of these pumped up yahoos is probably going to wind up shooting someone who's an American citizen. Or they're going to shoot law enforcement.

I see those as equally likely as shooting anyone actually dangerous.

149 cliffster  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:29:08pm

re: #137 JasonA

He's being compared to... to... Job? Doesn't Stephen have to suffer, like, a lot more before that even starts making sense?

People these days are a lot sissier than in biblical times.

150 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:29:14pm

re: #82 cliffster

Lane Bryant Says ABC, Fox Censored Plus-Size Lingerie Commercial

Someone did a photoshop gag with that commercial (altering the text message on the model's cell phone), and the fooking geniuses at CNN used that rather than the original for their coverage.

Dumbasses.

151 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:29:25pm

re: #102 LudwigVanQuixote

It is one of many. The militia Nazis are going giving it powerful competition.

OK, fine, so what?
BTW, the Euronazis have gained a good head of steam thanks in part to radical Islam. Don't you think the US variety will similarly feed off the home-grown Islamist terrorists to recruit new members?
I would suggest to you that the home-grown jihadists will provide a multiplier effect for Nazi recruitment and every other violent xenophobic organization in America.
And if there is another successful jihadist domestic terrorist attack on US soil...fuggedaboudit!
Very, very, big problem is radical Islam in America.

152 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:29:28pm

re: #143 Obdicut

Really? I have friends in Arizona who mainly describe it as really quiet. Depends where you are, I guess.

Yeah, my gf is from Flagstaff and it's one of the more progressive communities I've visited.

153 reloadingisnotahobby  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:29:31pm

re: #144 wrenchwench

Do you think the problem on the border would be what it is
if the agencies you just mentioned were enforcing the LAWS of the United States!!
I have no fear of any one in a well organized and law abiding Malitia!

154 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:30:01pm

re: #148 Obdicut

One of these pumped up yahoos is probably going to wind up shooting someone who's an American citizen. Or they're going to shoot law enforcement.

I see those as equally likely as shooting anyone actually dangerous.

See #115.

155 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:30:06pm

re: #148 Obdicut

Oh, I know... but, jeezy creazy...

156 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:30:14pm

re: #148 Obdicut

One of these pumped up yahoos is probably going to wind up shooting someone who's an American citizen. Or they're going to shoot law enforcement.

I see those as equally likely as shooting anyone actually dangerous.

Agreed. Groups like that tend to draw those who use their weapons and associations to pump up their manhood.

157 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:30:23pm

re: #139 Naso Tang

You are moving the goal posts. Good grief.

Nope. You said

If a religious belief is used to justify murder then it is a perversion of a kind that is particularly dangerous, just like pedophilia, which we can't cure either.

Substitute "grammatical purity" for "religious belief" and you have my post above.

goal posts intact. i'm not in the crease...

158 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:30:45pm

re: #152 Conservative Moonbat

C'mon. How far is Flagstaff from the border? Four-five hours?

159 Four More Tears  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:31:13pm

re: #150 Slumbering Behemoth

Someone did a photoshop gag with that commercial (altering the text message on the model's cell phone), and the fooking geniuses at CNN used that rather than the original for their coverage.

Dumbasses.

That remix was f*cking cruel. There's nothing wrong with that woman's body.

160 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:31:17pm

re: #154 wrenchwench

Ah crap, that's terrible. A nine year old?

And they impersonated federal officers, too. I bet that there's a lot of that going down with the guys who have delusions they can authorize people to fire, too.

161 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:31:41pm

re: #136 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

In all honesty?

If I (with my wife and children) lived near the Mexican border in Arizona? I'd probably be scared to death and armed to the teeth and ready to welcome anyone who would do harm to those that might harm me and mine with open arms.

From the reports that I hear (not just on Fox) it is a dangerous fucking place to be, and the problem ain't from the Amish.

In all honesty, if I were living on the border I would NOT welcome these racist, self-righteous, violence-addled fools. Especially if I and mine were Chicano.

The more of these people running around out there being helpful, the higher rises the probability that someone ends up dead. And it won't be a coyote or a narco, it will be some plumber from Nogales who didn't realize he was supposed to cooperate and show his ID when some freaks with guns and no badges pulled him over and wanted to search his truck.

162 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:32:03pm

Apparently, the gov of Arizona is going to sign the immigration bill...

163 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:32:09pm

re: #131 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
re: #137 JasonA

Seriously, the meme that organization is going with is that Stephen found Jesus, then lost his acting career. I distinctly remember it happening the other way 'round.

164 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:32:30pm

re: #159 JasonA

That remix was f*cking cruel. There's nothing wrong with that woman's body.

Nothing wrong??? She's fucking hot!!

165 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:32:33pm

re: #145 cliffster

It's scary as hell. I have friends in Juarez and El Paso (Gringo Juarez) and it's out of control. A whole stretch of the border around there is like a little war zone, and it's kinda happening without a lot of fanfare on the news.

Problem is, I can't see how another armed gang will improve matters much.

166 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:32:49pm

re: #163 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #137 JasonA

Seriously, the meme that organization is going with is that Stephen found Jesus, then lost his acting career. I distinctly remember it happening the other way 'round.

He had an acting career?

167 Four More Tears  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:33:04pm

re: #163 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #137 JasonA

Seriously, the meme that organization is going with is that Stephen found Jesus, then lost his acting career. I distinctly remember it happening the other way 'round.

Same here. Can Jesus bestow him with talent?

168 albusteve  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:33:17pm

re: #155 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh, I know... but, jeezy creazy...

Chicago is 24 hrs from the border....jus sayin

169 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:33:23pm

re: #153 reloadingisnotahobby

Do you think the problem on the border would be what it is
if the agencies you just mentioned were enforcing the LAWS of the United States!!
I have no fear of any one in a well organized and law abiding Malitia!

Those agencies are working their tails off enforcing US laws. There are other agencies I would blame before I blamed the Border Patrol. The "militias" are a serious threat. See #115. The organized ones are usually organized by racists.

170 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:33:37pm

re: #153 reloadingisnotahobby

Do you think the problem on the border would be what it is
if the agencies you just mentioned were enforcing the LAWS of the United States!!
I have no fear of any one in a well organized and law abiding Malitia!

Does this gentleman sound as though he represents one of those?

171 Four More Tears  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:33:47pm

re: #166 Aceofwhat?

He had an acting career?

Well, had had the luck to be born "Baldwin." That's pretty much it.

172 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:33:51pm

re: #161 SanFranciscoZionist

It is horribly complex situation. Glad I don't live there.

Gotta go to the shoe repair shop and pick up my jeans.

Yeah. You read that right.

173 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:34:10pm

re: #162 Aceofwhat?

Apparently, the gov of Arizona is going to sign the immigration bill...

Well, there goes any illegal immigrant ever telling any cop about any crime, I guess.

What a short-sighted bill, on every level.

174 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:34:26pm

re: #157 Aceofwhat?

Substitute "grammatical purity" for "religious belief" and you have my post above.

goal posts intact. i'm not in the crease...

I don't get it are you saying that Michael Strong and Warren Jeffs shouldn't have gone to jail?

175 researchok  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:34:37pm

re: #162 Aceofwhat?

Apparently, the gov of Arizona is going to sign the immigration bill...

The steep increase in crime and kidnappings insured passage of the bill.

176 Lidane  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:34:38pm

re: #153 reloadingisnotahobby

I have no fear of any one in a well organized and law abiding Malitia!

I do, not because of the guns or the existence of a militia at all. Rather, I'm afraid because some of those folks, while law abiding, can easily give in to paranoia and fear.

Case in point-- I didn't learn to speak English until I was about 4 years old. Before that, I only spoke Spanish. I also grew up on the Mexican border. It's not that far of a stretch for me to imagine some of the more paranoid people in these militia groups targeting kids like me and their families just because they think those people might be illegal, or might be some sort of imaginary threat to them.

177 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:34:40pm

re: #159 JasonA

That remix was f*cking cruel. There's nothing wrong with that woman's body.

I wholeheartedly agree. I sure as hell wouldn't kick her out of bed for eating crackers (or a McRib).

178 Four More Tears  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:35:54pm

re: #177 Slumbering Behemoth

I wholeheartedly agree. I sure as hell wouldn't kick her out of bed for eating crackers (or a McRib).

Hell, I'd love to share a Double Down with her.

179 cliffster  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:36:04pm

re: #165 SanFranciscoZionist

Problem is, I can't see how another armed gang will improve matters much.

Oh, I wasn't saying that we need to inject more fire into the situation. I'm just saying it's scary. If people are being a little weird, that's understandable.

180 albusteve  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:36:07pm

re: #173 Obdicut

Well, there goes any illegal immigrant ever telling any cop about any crime, I guess.

What a short-sighted bill, on every level.

AZ is fed up...right, wrong or otherwise, the feds have neglected to enforce the law so this is one result

181 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:36:15pm

re: #168 albusteve

Chicago is 24 hrs from the border...jus sayin

I am entirely aware of that, Steve.

182 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:36:24pm

re: #174 Thanos

I don't get it are you saying that Michael Strong and Warren Jeffs shouldn't have gone to jail?

/pimf Michael Travesser aka Wayne Bent at Strong city
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

183 Kragar  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:36:32pm

re: #173 Obdicut

Well, there goes any illegal immigrant ever telling any cop about any crime, I guess.

What a short-sighted bill, on every level.

Yup. Even the legitmate immigrant population will be clamming up most likely.

184 webevintage  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:36:45pm

re: #163 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #137 JasonA

Seriously, the meme that organization is going with is that Stephen found Jesus, then lost his acting career. I distinctly remember it happening the other way 'round.

Yeah.
Not the most talented Baldwin out there.
He was good in "Usual Suspects" and that probably had more to do with director and the other real actors working with him.

185 iossarian  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:36:48pm

re: #128 LudwigVanQuixote

I mostly agree, but this is the eternal liberal paradox, isn't it? Why is my vision of right/wrong better than anyone else's? When is it OK to be intolerant of intolerance?

Of course you're going to get near-unanimous agreement if the example of intolerance is honor killing. It's in the gray areas that the argument falls apart though.

186 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:36:49pm

Control the border or the border will control you.

187 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:36:53pm

re: #159 JasonA

That remix was f*cking cruel. There's nothing wrong with that woman's body.

Although I do have one little quibble. There is at least one thing very wrong with her body. A complete lack of any application of The Behemoth.

*ROWR!*

188 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:36:53pm

re: #168 albusteve

Chicago is 24 hrs from the border...jus sayin

OK...I suppose it is.

Now what?

189 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:37:01pm

re: #173 Obdicut

Well, there goes any illegal immigrant ever telling any cop about any crime, I guess.

What a short-sighted bill, on every level.

Show your papers, then report the crime.

Right.

190 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:37:13pm

re: #180 albusteve

It's wrong. It's not going to help matters. It's going to inflame matters.

It's not like Arizona is some dumb animal that, when poked, reacts in a certain way. They're conscious human beings; they have a choice about whether to pass really stupid laws.

191 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:37:14pm

re: #176 Lidane

{Lidane} You certainly can't tell who is a citizen by appearance, language, what they're having for lunch, or anything except documents.

192 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:37:57pm

re: #157 Aceofwhat?

Substitute "grammatical purity" for "religious belief" and you have my post above.

goal posts intact. i'm not in the crease...

It's a silly analogy, but if you find someone who has an obsession with grammar books and finds meaning that say kill within them, then I would indeed suggest that this person should be locked up indefinitely, without access to grammar books.

193 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:38:22pm

re: #185 iossarian

Just because it's apropos, let me repost this bit from Popper that addresses exactly that:

The Paradox of Tolerance:

Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive , and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.

194 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:38:39pm

re: #151 Spare O'Lake

OK, fine, so what?
BTW, the Euronazis have gained a good head of steam thanks in part to radical Islam. Don't you think the US variety will similarly feed off the home-grown Islamist terrorists to recruit new members?
I would suggest to you that the home-grown jihadists will provide a multiplier effect for Nazi recruitment and every other violent xenophobic organization in America.
And if there is another successful jihadist domestic terrorist attack on US soil...fuggedaboudit!
Very, very, big problem is radical Islam in America.

Spare, does anything I write seem soft to you on Jihadis? Have I ever once wrung my hands and suggested that jihadis are anything other than rabid animals on two feet?

Have I ever denied that they have created a movement of reactionary fear so intense that other animals on two feet are becoming fascist themselves?

No, what I write is very clear and very consistent. There are evil animals in the world walking in human form. All of them are unified in wanting to tear down everything that is good and decent about America. All of them dream of doing so violently.

It is a real fight on all fronts.

It is a fight that must be fought, and if we fail speak out loudly now and correct the stupidity of these movements with reason, the next step is going to be being forced to fight them physically.

I do not want it to come to that.

If you actually read what I am writing in context you will see that my message has always been don't let idiot messages spread by pointing out in clear terms how idiot the message is and never be afraid to call a fool a fool. IF we tolerate the spread of stupid, we get a spread of stupid.

If that becomes stupid and violent, then we put it down fast before is spreads.

Why, because that is how in the long run, you save the most lives and most efficiently preserve our freedoms and values.

195 cliffster  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:39:03pm

The moon is 3,760 hours from the border. Going 60mph

196 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:39:04pm

re: #190 Obdicut

It's wrong. It's not going to help matters. It's going to inflame matters.

It's not like Arizona is some dumb animal that, when poked, reacts in a certain way. They're conscious human beings; they have a choice about whether to pass really stupid laws.

Maybe most folks don't think it's stupid at all.

197 webevintage  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:39:04pm

re: #187 Slumbering Behemoth

Although I do have one little quibble. There is at least one thing very wrong with her body. A complete lack of any application of The Behemoth.

*ROWR!*

hahahahaha
Maybe the problem with the ad was just that us curvy, fleshy soft in all the right places gals are just too DAMN sexy for TV.

198 Four More Tears  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:39:05pm

My thoughts on the new Arizona bill can be summed up thusly:

"Papiere, Bitte."

Full Godwin.

199 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:39:26pm

re: #153 reloadingisnotahobby

Do you think the problem on the border would be what it is
if the agencies you just mentioned were enforcing the LAWS of the United States!!
I have no fear of any one in a well organized and law abiding Malitia!

Neither do I, but how do we know the Malitias are going to be well organized and law abiding?

200 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:39:29pm

re: #179 cliffster

Oh, I wasn't saying that we need to inject more fire into the situation. I'm just saying it's scary. If people are being a little weird, that's understandable.

If people were forming armed neighborhood watches or some such, I would fully understand. That doesn't seem to me like what's happening with this group.

201 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:39:34pm

re: #192 Naso Tang

It's a silly analogy, but if you find someone who has an obsession with grammar books and finds meaning that say kill within them, then I would indeed suggest that this person should be locked up indefinitely, without access to grammar books.

No, you said that the cause they cited as reason for their act should itself be banned, like pedophilia. So to be consistent, you now need to equivocate grammatical purity with pedophilia.

Or you can just admit you made absolutely no sense whatsoever. I'm fine with that outcome too.

202 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:39:53pm

re: #196 Spare O'Lake

Maybe most folks don't think it's stupid at all.

That has nothing to do with whether or not it is very stupid. And it is, very stupid.

203 webevintage  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:40:03pm

re: #191 wrenchwench

{Lidane} You certainly can't tell who is a citizen by appearance, language, what they're having for lunch, or anything except documents.

Ummm, some Republican was saying the other day he could tell who was an illegal by their shoes.
No seriously.
Gotta find that....

204 albusteve  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:40:04pm

re: #188 SanFranciscoZionist

OK...I suppose it is.

Now what?

don't rightly know myself....it's a huge mess and we are only making it worse putting off some sort of reform....our hypocricy has been exposed once again and I'm none to proud of it

205 reloadingisnotahobby  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:40:18pm

The violence on our Southern border is one step from war!
The Cartels are well armed and on both sides of the border.
Law enforcement is at the end of their rope .Officers are killed/asasinated

206 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:40:55pm

re: #195 cliffster

The moon is 3,760 hours from the border. Going 60mph

I think once you get out of the atmosphere it's OK to speed a little.

207 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:41:39pm

re: #185 iossarian

Of course you're going to get near-unanimous agreement if the example of intolerance is honor killing. It's in the gray areas that the argument falls apart though.

But aren't the gray areas the areas where we don't really need legislation anyway? That is, they're the things we can agree to disagree on while otherwise living in harmony, right?

208 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:41:41pm

re: #201 Aceofwhat?

No, you said that the cause they cited as reason for their act should itself be banned, like pedophilia. So to be consistent, you now need to equivocate grammatical purity with pedophilia.

Or you can just admit you made absolutely no sense whatsoever. I'm fine with that outcome too.

Bullshit, you are just driving around in a late model huffmobile looking for offense....

rrrr! Rrrr! RRR! I think you meant "all muslims" when you said that, pull 'er over buddy yer busted!"

209 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:41:50pm

re: #175 researchok

The steep increase in crime and kidnappings insured passage of the bill.

And 9/11 evidently insured we'd end up in Iraq by freaking the American population out. That doesn't make what they're doing right or sensible.

210 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:41:55pm

re: #196 Spare O'Lake

Maybe most folks don't think it's stupid at all.

I think that from a law enforcement standpoint, it's not going to be good.

211 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:42:03pm

re: #203 webevintage

Here it is:

[Link: trueslant.com...]

Chris Matthews: …like what, like what? Give me a non-ethnic aspect that would tell you to pick up somebody.

Rep. Bilbray: They will look at the kind of dress you wear, there’s different type of attire, there’s different type of—right down to the shoes, right down to the clothes.

212 cliffster  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:42:07pm

re: #205 reloadingisnotahobby

The violence on our Southern border is one step from war!
The Cartels are well armed and on both sides of the border.
Law enforcement is at the end of their rope .Officers are killed/asasinated

I'm not sure that it's short of war any more. I'm not there, and people exaggerate, but like I said earlier I have friends there and from their description it's way jacked up.

213 albusteve  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:42:20pm

re: #190 Obdicut

It's wrong. It's not going to help matters. It's going to inflame matters.

It's not like Arizona is some dumb animal that, when poked, reacts in a certain way. They're conscious human beings; they have a choice about whether to pass really stupid laws.

we'll have to see how 'stupid' it is....the border states have begged the govt for help but they won't do shit to secure the border....it's a crisis, a security issue and it affects everyone....fucking politics

214 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:42:33pm

re: #196 Spare O'Lake

There're alot of demagogues and anti-mexican bigots promoting it, so that might be.

What's that old canard about 'if you repeat a lie often enough...'?

215 Kragar  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:42:57pm

re: #205 reloadingisnotahobby

The violence on our Southern border is one step from war!
The Cartels are well armed and on both sides of the border.
Law enforcement is at the end of their rope .Officers are killed/asasinated

All points I agree with. Steps need to be taken to address those specific issues. Making local police crack down on regular people fleeing Mexico's violence does nothing to fix the problem.

216 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:42:57pm

re: #203 webevintage

Ummm, some Republican was saying the other day he could tell who was an illegal by their shoes.
No seriously.
Gotta find that...

Hmmm. I don't think so.

217 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:43:01pm

re: #203 webevintage

Ummm, some Republican was saying the other day he could tell who was an illegal by their shoes.
No seriously.
Gotta find that...

Clear parallel here. Ever notice how the Nazis were obsessed by the idea of being able to spot pure Aryans?

Does anyone really think the psychology of and behind the message is very different?

218 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:43:15pm

re: #198 JasonA

I always think its okay if you call yourself out on it :D

219 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:43:22pm

re: #205 reloadingisnotahobby

The violence on our Southern border is one step from war!
The Cartels are well armed and on both sides of the border.
Law enforcement is at the end of their rope .Officers are killed/asasinated

Where do you live?

220 iossarian  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:43:39pm

re: #193 Obdicut

Right, that's exactly it. Like I said, the problems arise in the gray areas (something that Popper alludes to with his comment about "... as long as we can counter them by rational argument...").

In no way do I wish to turn this into an abortion thread, but that's an example where you can, in theory, have perfectly rational people on opposite sides of such a debate - some who believe that the fetus is a person and some who don't.

221 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:43:52pm

re: #210 SanFranciscoZionist

I think that from a law enforcement standpoint, it's not going to be good.

Hmmm angry, racist armed thugs work themselves into a lather and go around playing soldier with high powered weapons... What could possibly go wrong?

222 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:43:52pm

re: #213 albusteve

I think we've been over this. Figured out a real way to secure the border yet?

Last time this came up you refused to provide one.

223 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:43:57pm

re: #205 reloadingisnotahobby

American citizens have also been kidnapped for ransom, and other, more horrifying things.

224 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:43:58pm

re: #189 Stanley Sea

Show your papers, then report the crime.

Right.

You must have missed the part where he said --->illegal

225 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:44:08pm

re: #201 Aceofwhat?

No, you said that the cause they cited as reason for their act should itself be banned, like pedophilia. So to be consistent, you now need to equivocate grammatical purity with pedophilia.

Or you can just admit you made absolutely no sense whatsoever. I'm fine with that outcome too.

Now you have the twitches. Must be really contagious.

I didn't say that, but I realize that is what you want to think I did.

I said that certain justifications for crimes make the person particularly dangerous, and I did not use the imaginary word "banned" which you ascribe to me.

226 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:44:30pm

re: #205 reloadingisnotahobby

The violence on our Southern border is one step from war!
The Cartels are well armed and on both sides of the border.
Law enforcement is at the end of their rope .Officers are killed/asasinated

IN America?

Are Americans getting killed by this?

227 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:44:35pm

re: #203 webevintage

Ummm, some Republican was saying the other day he could tell who was an illegal by their shoes.
No seriously.
Gotta find that...

Good ole Brian Bilbray. Fool from my area.

228 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:44:38pm

re: #211 Obdicut

Here it is:

[Link: trueslant.com...]

Presumably, people who cross the border legally buy their shoes in the same places as people who cross the border illegally. Unless there's something about the Mexican shoe business I really do not understand.

229 albusteve  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:44:52pm

re: #214 windsagio

There're alot of demagogues and anti-mexican bigots promoting it, so that might be.

What's that old canard about 'if you repeat a lie often enough...'?

in this case they are right regardless if they are bigots or not

230 cliffster  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:44:54pm

re: #221 LudwigVanQuixote

Hmmm angry, racist armed thugs work themselves into a lather and go around playing soldier with high powered weapons... What could possibly go wrong?

The central point is being able to ask for proof of legality with probably cause, right? What's the method of proof? Are we all going to be carrying around papers? Or is it just, show your id?

231 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:44:57pm

re: #213 albusteve

we'll have to see how 'stupid' it is...the border states have begged the govt for help but they won't do shit to secure the border...it's a crisis, a security issue and it affects everyone...fucking politics

There will have to be some changes to some laws if states are going to enforce immigration. This bill will not make it through a legal challenge, IM(non-lawyer)HO.

232 webevintage  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:44:58pm

re: #205 reloadingisnotahobby

The violence on our Southern border is one step from war!
The Cartels are well armed and on both sides of the border.
Law enforcement is at the end of their rope .Officers are killed/asasinated

I think this might be a bit of an exaggeration, but I would like to know if the states are allowed to use their National Guard troops to patrol the boarders?

233 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:45:09pm

re: #213 albusteve

Yes. And this bill is more politics, of a very ugly kind. This bill is going to hamper law enforcement. It's going to embolden the militia groups. And it only raises the stakes for any illegal immigrant to avoid law enforcement and makes them more reliant on the criminal gangs.

234 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:45:11pm

re: #223 Slumbering Behemoth

American citizens have also been kidnapped for ransom, and other, more horrifying things.

Link? I am not calling you out. I want to know how bad a problem this is.

235 cliffster  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:45:19pm

re: #226 LudwigVanQuixote

IN America?

Are Americans getting killed by this?

yes.

236 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:45:22pm

re: #208 Thanos

Bullshit, you are just driving around in a late model huffmobile looking for offense...

rrr! Rrrr! RRR! I think you meant "all muslims" when you said that, pull 'er over buddy yer busted!"

no comprende

237 Randall Gross  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:45:29pm

re: #221 LudwigVanQuixote

Hmmm angry, racist armed thugs work themselves into a lather and go around playing soldier with high powered weapons... What could possibly go wrong?

I'm with you on that one. Old farts with guns running around thinking they are the law are dangerous to our freedom.

238 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:46:03pm

re: #230 cliffster

The central point is being able to ask for proof of legality with probably cause, right? What's the method of proof? Are we all going to be carrying around papers? Or is it just, show your id?

That is secondary.

What is primary is that the militia nazi types actually want to shoot people.

239 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:46:10pm

re: #221 LudwigVanQuixote

Hmmm angry, racist armed thugs work themselves into a lather and go around playing soldier with high powered weapons... What could possibly go wrong?

Well, I was talking about the bill. From a law enforcement standpoint, I think self-appointed militias are a NIGHTMARE.

240 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:46:31pm

re: #234 LudwigVanQuixote

I heard a thing about how the Cartels in N. Mexico are being super careful to try to avoid americans (a few notable incidents aside, but those were apparently accidents), because they're terrified we'll bring the hammer down on them.

241 reloadingisnotahobby  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:46:32pm

re: #205 reloadingisnotahobby

The violence on our Southern border is one step from war!
The Cartels are well armed and on both sides of the border.
Corruption in the Mex..Law enforcement and Military has left people with
out faith in them.
Law enforcement is at the end of their rope .Officers are killed/assassinated at an alarming rate.
And every ones in an uproar over a few people with Binoculars watching the border.
Now,we have idiots who want to be armed while watching the border.
It is worrisome ...but they are coming NORTH...ARMED and illegally!

242 albusteve  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:46:47pm

re: #222 windsagio

I think we've been over this. Figured out a real way to secure the border yet?

Last time this came up you refused to provide one.

it can be secured for the most part and you know it...not entirely and I never said it could....doing nothing only makes the problem worse...and I did provide one helpful means and have been severely mocked for it....fence off long stretches of it

243 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:46:54pm

re: #222 windsagio

You are starting to piss me off by dinging when you should shut up and stop suggesting I am saying things that I didn't.

244 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:47:00pm

re: #236 Aceofwhat?

Dude, might just wanna let it go. you know how it is, too hard to actually admit a mistake, so they'll just keep digging in.

245 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:47:08pm

re: #226 LudwigVanQuixote

IN America?

Are Americans getting killed by this?

Most of the Americans being killed by the cartel wars are dying on the Mexican side, but a rancher was killed in Arizona last month. Gave the governor very little ability to not sign the stupid bill.

246 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:47:23pm

re: #194 LudwigVanQuixote

Right you are. Now let's stop arguing about which group is a bigger threat. Radical Islam must be stopped now or else you will soon have more Nazis spawning in reaction than you can shake a stick at - just like in Europe.

247 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:47:24pm

re: #242 albusteve

I won't mock you, but That's a terrible idea. I think I've said that before tho'.

248 Kragar  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:47:34pm

re: #226 LudwigVanQuixote

IN America?

Are Americans getting killed by this?

Fallen U.S. Border Patrol Agent Robert W. Rosas to Receive Prestigious Award

On July 23, 2009, Agent Rosas was murdered in the line of duty while patrolling the international border in Campo, California.
Acting Chief Patrol Agent Richard Barlow, of the U.S. Border Patrol’s San Diego Sector, said, “Without a shred of doubt, Agent Rosas answered the call of duty by selflessly dedicating his life to protect our nation. His courageous sacrifice is clearly reflected by this tremendous honor.”

249 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:47:42pm

re: #234 LudwigVanQuixote

Give me a couple of minutes. I recall reading something about it, but that was some time ago.

And don't sweat the "calling out". This is LGF, the place that fact checks your ass. I expect it.

250 cliffster  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:47:44pm

re: #238 LudwigVanQuixote

That is secondary.

What is primary is that the militia nazi types actually want to shoot people.

I'm talking about the bill that passed, not an interpretation of its intentions.

251 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:47:48pm

re: #234 LudwigVanQuixote

[Link: www.newspapertree.com...]

This paper says ICE is putting the number at 6 kidnapped last year.

However.

The U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency counts six kidnappings while the El Paso Police Department contends there were none at all.

“We have not had one kidnapping related to anything going on in Mexico reported to the El Paso Police Department,” Officer Chris Mears, a department spokesman, said this week.

The FBI, which is responsible for investigating kidnappings, puts the number somewhere in between six and zero.

With all respect for the families of those kidnapped, six really doesn't seem like a gigantic epidemic.

252 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:47:56pm

re: #230 cliffster

The central point is being able to ask for proof of legality with probably cause, right? What's the method of proof? Are we all going to be carrying around papers? Or is it just, show your id?

What's probable cause of illegality?

253 albusteve  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:48:00pm

re: #231 wrenchwench

There will have to be some changes to some laws if states are going to enforce immigration. This bill will not make it through a legal challenge, IM(non-lawyer)HO.

maybe not, but it's a shot across the bow

254 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:48:07pm

re: #232 webevintage

I think this might be a bit of an exaggeration, but I would like to know if the states are allowed to use their National Guard troops to patrol the boarders?

That's been done for decades, actually, and much more in the last 5 years

255 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:48:13pm

re: #243 Naso Tang

You said something stupid, and chose to dig in in the worst way rather than just cop and move on. Theres really nothing to discuss if that's your attitude.

256 cliffster  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:48:37pm

re: #250 cliffster

I'm talking about the bill that passed, not an interpretation of its intentions.

Well, the bill that passed and will soon be signed.

257 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:48:39pm

re: #251 Obdicut

Oh wait, that's from 2009 about 2008-- let me see if I can find about 2009.

258 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:49:04pm

re: #233 Obdicut

Yes. And this bill is more politics, of a very ugly kind. This bill is going to hamper law enforcement. It's going to embolden the militia groups. And it only raises the stakes for any illegal immigrant to avoid law enforcement and makes them more reliant on the criminal gangs.

LAPD made a decision to steer clear of having their officers deal with immigration issues back in the 70s, and they have not changed their minds yet. For the reasons you cite.

259 webevintage  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:49:10pm

Interesting article from Texas:
[Link: www.star-telegram.com...]

260 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:49:15pm

re: #161 SanFranciscoZionist

In all honesty, if I were living on the border I would NOT welcome these racist, self-righteous, violence-addled fools. Especially if I and mine were Chicano.

The more of these people running around out there being helpful, the higher rises the probability that someone ends up dead. And it won't be a coyote or a narco, it will be some plumber from Nogales who didn't realize he was supposed to cooperate and show his ID when some freaks with guns and no badges pulled him over and wanted to search his truck.


Hi you! I'm praying you get that killer job you applied for..
So speaking of Nogales...Me and a few buddies spent a weekend there a few year ago..It's a long story...So here is what I first noticed.. On the American side it is pretty much a normal town..On the other side of the razor wire it is a different world.. The poverty level there is heartbreaking and an a real eye opener..I had never seen anything like it..Crap some of the parking for the rental was between Donkeys in the side streets..We ended up driving back out and walking back in...Mexico should be fucking embarrassed at their Gov't..Fucking pathelic..
/Fun story.. I was walking through the flea market when a bunch of kids started following me yelling Reggie Miller! Reggie Miller! I turned around..What? I was wearing a Pacer coat..And they all knew Reggie Miller and were thrilled...Yelling Reggie..Reggie!
I'm a sucker..I gave them some cash..At the border they have crippled children selling candy for 5 fucking cents..You sit there in line while a small child walks up to your window asking for 5 fucking cents..How much?
You hand them a few bucks and tell them to keep the change hardly able to hold back the tears...Fuck you Mexico...Do something for your babies..
/rant off...

261 cliffster  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:49:24pm

re: #252 SanFranciscoZionist

What's probable cause of illegality?

Another good question. You're looking very brown today, son. Have you been drinking? Jumping the border illegally?

262 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:49:38pm

re: #240 windsagio

I heard a thing about how the Cartels in N. Mexico are being super careful to try to avoid americans (a few notable incidents aside, but those were apparently accidents), because they're terrified we'll bring the hammer down on them.

Try parsing this paragraph

"Despite that, law enforcement officials said the cartel-related incident does not demonstrate an example of "spillover" violence — often described by the national media as cartel-related violence on U.S. soil, but described by local authorities as an active incident of violence literally spilling north of the Rio Grande from Mexico."

[Link: www.brownsvilleherald.com...]

263 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:49:39pm

re: #225 Naso Tang

Now you have the twitches. Must be really contagious.

I didn't say that, but I realize that is what you want to think I did.

I said that certain justifications for crimes make the person particularly dangerous, and I did not use the imaginary word "banned" which you ascribe to me.

Let me quote. I do not intend to misstate.

You said

One can argue that when the religious beliefs are used to justify the crime, then that is all the more reason to remove from society.

So you wish to remove the religious beliefs from society.

If you MEANT to say something else, then by all means, say something else. I can only go by what you said. My apologies for not being strong in the force/

264 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:49:39pm

re: #257 Obdicut

The last incident I heard of, of any kind along the borders were those Juarez (I think it was Juarez) shootings.

265 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:49:56pm

re: #229 albusteve

in this case they are right regardless if they are bigots or not

Dangerous talk.

266 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:50:12pm

re: #241 reloadingisnotahobby

But if you live in Mexico, don't think this state of war entitles you to apply for refugee status. 'Cause it don't.

267 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:50:28pm

re: #260 HoosierHoops

The corruption in Mexico is just so prevalent, everywhere. All of my friends who grew up in Mexico talk about local thugs, petty tyrants.

268 reloadingisnotahobby  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:50:35pm

re: #219 SanFranciscoZionist

Utah with family in So. Cal and Yuma Az.
Before I left Cal...the violence came to my door at the hands of Latino gangs.
Murdered the store Manager 4 doors down and threw the weapon over my fence!
They were caught..
Two months later I moved.

269 albusteve  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:50:40pm

re: #233 Obdicut

Yes. And this bill is more politics, of a very ugly kind. This bill is going to hamper law enforcement. It's going to embolden the militia groups. And it only raises the stakes for any illegal immigrant to avoid law enforcement and makes them more reliant on the criminal gangs.

I have not read the bill, so my comments reflect a certain ignorance....I can only give my general opinion....I won't ask for details about malitias, but certainly I don't want those types actually trying to enforce the law, whatever it is

270 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:50:50pm

re: #234 LudwigVanQuixote

Link? I am not calling you out. I want to know how bad a problem this is.

Here are 1,300 links, most of which are on this subject.

271 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:50:55pm

re: #255 windsagio

You said something stupid, and chose to dig in in the worst way rather than just cop and move on. Theres really nothing to discuss if that's your attitude.

Seems to me you are the one who is incapable of saying you need 4 sentences to understand something when most need only one.

I have explained that you misunderstood me, and that you have a classic problem with knee jerk bleeding heart interpretations.

I think it is the latter that you can't deal with.

272 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:51:00pm

re: #239 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, I was talking about the bill. From a law enforcement standpoint, I think self-appointed militias are a NIGHTMARE.

And I was agreeing with you!

273 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:51:13pm

re: #246 Spare O'Lake

Right you are. Now let's stop arguing about which group is a bigger threat. Radical Islam must be stopped now or else you will soon have more Nazis spawning in reaction than you can shake a stick at - just like in Europe.

Honestly, I am not convinced that 'radical' Islam is what's spawning Europe's Nazis. I think racism and xenophobia does that just fine.

274 Velvet Elvis  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:51:30pm

re: #241 reloadingisnotahobby

It's important to keep the problems associated with the drug war separate from illegal immigration. There are two different groups of people trying to cross the border for two different reasons. It's unlikely that one solution will fix both problems.

275 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:51:49pm

re: #244 windsagio

Dude, might just wanna let it go. you know how it is, too hard to actually admit a mistake, so they'll just keep digging in.

On one hand, you're right.

On the other hand, i'm enjoying myself;)

276 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:51:54pm

re: #245 wrenchwench

Most of the Americans being killed by the cartel wars are dying on the Mexican side, but a rancher was killed in Arizona last month. Gave the governor very little ability to not sign the stupid bill.

One guy dies and they crap on the constitution?

Pansies.

277 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:51:57pm

re: #251 Obdicut

[Link: www.newspapertree.com...]

This paper says ICE is putting the number at 6 kidnapped last year.

However.

With all respect for the families of those kidnapped, six really doesn't seem like a gigantic epidemic.

Is it substantially different from ten years ago, say?

278 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:52:07pm

re: #262 Walter L. Newton

Hmm, my post was in reference to US Nationals, I think we all know theres cartel violence on both sides. Good article tho >

279 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:52:28pm

re: #205 reloadingisnotahobby

The violence on our Southern border is one step from war!
The Cartels are well armed and on both sides of the border.
Law enforcement is at the end of their rope .Officers are killed/asasinated

No kidding. 7 people were murdered in Juarez today and 6 of them were police officers.

280 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:52:33pm

re: #263 Aceofwhat?

So you wish to remove the religious beliefs from society.

If you MEANT to say something else, then by all means, say something else. I can only go by what you said. My apologies for not being strong in the force/

Listen dickhead, it should be quite clear from the recent posts that I have made it clear I was referring to the person in question as far as removal goes.

281 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:53:02pm

re: #270 wrenchwench

Here are 1,300 links, most of which are on this subject.

Thanks.

Favorited for future reference.

282 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:53:10pm

re: #273 SanFranciscoZionist

There's an easy test. Did european Nazis exist between the rise of "Radical Islam" or even "High ME populations in Europe" but after WW2?


My radar tells me the answer is 'yes, they did'.

283 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:53:26pm

re: #273 SanFranciscoZionist

Honestly, I am not convinced that 'radical' Islam is what's spawning Europe's Nazis. I think racism and xenophobia does that just fine.

Europe's Nazis have always been lurking in the background looking for the next group to blame all their ills on... as you said racist and xenophobes, and Muslims are the current villain.

284 Sigma_x  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:53:32pm

Weak sauce.

285 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:53:46pm

re: #260 HoosierHoops

Hi you! I'm praying you get that killer job you applied for..
So speaking of Nogales...Me and a few buddies spent a weekend there a few year ago..It's a long story...So here is what I first noticed.. On the American side it is pretty much a normal town..On the other side of the razor wire it is a different world.. The poverty level there is heartbreaking and an a real eye opener..I had never seen anything like it..Crap some of the parking for the rental was between Donkeys in the side streets..We ended up driving back out and walking back in...Mexico should be fucking embarrassed at their Gov't..Fucking pathelic..
/Fun story.. I was walking through the flea market when a bunch of kids started following me yelling Reggie Miller! Reggie Miller! I turned around..What? I was wearing a Pacer coat..And they all knew Reggie Miller and were thrilled...Yelling Reggie..Reggie!
I'm a sucker..I gave them some cash..At the border they have crippled children selling candy for 5 fucking cents..You sit there in line while a small child walks up to your window asking for 5 fucking cents..How much?
You hand them a few bucks and tell them to keep the change hardly able to hold back the tears...Fuck you Mexico...Do something for your babies..
/rant off...

Yeah, you were raised Catholic all right! My father can't deal with driving the slow drive back into the States from Tijuana. He keeps handing money out the window, and then feels like crap when he runs out.

Thanks for prayers--I'll let folks know if anything comes of the interview.

286 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:54:09pm

re: #270 wrenchwench

BUt a lot of those are about Juarez, not about El Paso.

And I don't see what articles like this

Part of the platform of the Springboro, OH, tea party organization (Nirth Certifikit appears at #17)

have to do with the border violence.

What search did you use?

I'm really not finding much in the way of hard statistics that shows large numbers of either kidnappings or murders in El Paso.

287 albusteve  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:54:31pm

re: #265 Stanley Sea

Dangerous talk.

only talk so far...the real danger lies in doing nothing...the feds need to step up...we all pretty much agree to that....the time has come

288 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:54:38pm

re: #273 SanFranciscoZionist

Honestly, I am not convinced that 'radical' Islam is what's spawning Europe's Nazis. I think racism and xenophobia does that just fine.

I agree with you. HOwever, the Islamists write amazing propaganda fr EuroFascists and the ones here too. Take one look at Pam Geller, RSM etc...

289 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:54:42pm

re: #276 Fozzie Bear

One guy dies and they crap on the constitution?

Pansies.

"One guy dies" does not describe the situation. The law is bad, but you have no grasp on the subject.

290 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:54:44pm

re: #271 Naso Tang

Seems to me you are the one who is incapable of saying you need 4 sentences to understand something when most need only one.

I have explained that you misunderstood me, and that you have a classic problem with knee jerk bleeding heart interpretations.

I think it is the latter that you can't deal with.

Did you just say that WINDSAGIO has a problem with bleeding-heart interpretations?

*chortle*

291 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:55:13pm

SFZ IN MY PRAYERS TONIGHT FOR A GOOD GIG!

292 Locker  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:55:30pm

Happy Friday foolios and fooliettes.

293 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:55:47pm

re: #260 HoosierHoops

Hi you! I'm praying you get that killer job you applied for..
So speaking of Nogales...Me and a few buddies spent a weekend there a few year ago..It's a long story...So here is what I first noticed.. On the American side it is pretty much a normal town..On the other side of the razor wire it is a different world.. The poverty level there is heartbreaking and an a real eye opener..I had never seen anything like it..Crap some of the parking for the rental was between Donkeys in the side streets..We ended up driving back out and walking back in...Mexico should be fucking embarrassed at their Gov't..Fucking pathelic..
/Fun story.. I was walking through the flea market when a bunch of kids started following me yelling Reggie Miller! Reggie Miller! I turned around..What? I was wearing a Pacer coat..And they all knew Reggie Miller and were thrilled...Yelling Reggie..Reggie!
I'm a sucker..I gave them some cash..At the border they have crippled children selling candy for 5 fucking cents..You sit there in line while a small child walks up to your window asking for 5 fucking cents..How much?
You hand them a few bucks and tell them to keep the change hardly able to hold back the tears...Fuck you Mexico...Do something for your babies..
/rant off...

Hoops - if you're a sucker - I'm one too.
There are worse things to do than to give some money to someone who can use it more than you can.

294 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:56:07pm

re: #290 Aceofwhat?

My interpretations, for the record, are more streaked with bile.

295 albusteve  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:56:11pm

re: #267 Obdicut

The corruption in Mexico is just so prevalent, everywhere. All of my friends who grew up in Mexico talk about local thugs, petty tyrants.

yes, and the upper classes are exempt from the violence if the keep paying off the right people...the corruption hurts the tiny middle class and literally kills the poor...it has been this way since 1821

296 reloadingisnotahobby  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:56:20pm

re: #226 LudwigVanQuixote

IN America?

Are Americans getting killed by this?

What?
You need to read a few Texas and AZ.news papers.re: #274 Conservative Moonbat

Not here in Utah illegal imm..and drug killings are synonymous.

297 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:56:55pm

re: #295 albusteve

We should pull an East Germany on them, imo ;)


/is he kidding?!

298 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:57:08pm

re: #286 Obdicut

BUt a lot of those are about Juarez, not about El Paso.

And I don't see what articles like this

Part of the platform of the Springboro, OH, tea party organization (Nirth Certifikit appears at #17)

have to do with the border violence.

What search did you use?

I'm really not finding much in the way of hard statistics that shows large numbers of either kidnappings or murders in El Paso.

Sorry for the slop. It's everything I've posted in the linkviewer, 90% of which relates to Mexico and the border. Mostly Juarez, yes. I'm having a little trouble making a neater search in the new Linkage thingy.

299 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:57:43pm

re: #296 reloadingisnotahobby

Only illegal immigrants deal in drugs. Someone tell the Crips fast! Or my goddamn neighbor (or is pot different)?

300 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:58:28pm

re: #260 HoosierHoops

re: #293 reine.de.tout

For exactly those sorts o reasons, some colleagues of mine suggested that I not attend a conference in India. They said simply that I do not have he sort of constitution that can remain sane after seeing thousands of starving children.

301 Lidane  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:58:33pm

re: #295 albusteve

it has been this way since the Conquistadors

FTFY

Mexico's political corruption goes back to the very beginning. By 1821 it had long since been established.

302 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:58:42pm

re: #299 windsagio

Only illegal immigrants deal in drugs. Someone tell the Crips fast! Or my goddamn neighbor (or is pot different)?

It doesn't "really" count as illegal to deal/grow/take in pot if you're white....

303 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:58:59pm

It looks like, looking through Wrenchwench's links, that the problem is pretty fucking bad in Mexico. I don't know about worse than ten years ago or not-- that's a little hard to figure out with my Google skills-- but it certainly seems scary enough.

However, it really doesn't seem like the spillover has actually been that large, into the US. And a lot of the violence and some of the kidnappings are gang-on-gang, which is scary as hell to be around but less of a threat to the average citizen, too.

What I'm worried about here is that if law enforcement actually is doing a good job and everyone is screaming about how they're not, that's unfair to them, and potentially harmful for their mission.

304 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:59:07pm

re: #296 reloadingisnotahobby

What?
You need to read a few Texas and AZ.news papers.re: #274 Conservative Moonbat

Not here in Utah illegal imm..and drug killings are synonymous.

I'm not in Texas or AZ. I am asking, not challenging.

305 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:59:15pm

re: #280 Naso Tang

Listen dickhead, it should be quite clear from the recent posts that I have made it clear I was referring to the person in question as far as removal goes.

Ok. I made it quite clear that i was referring to your original post, since you never said you wrote it in error.

Just say you screwed your post up instead of pretending like we're inventing things. Remember the words of Marcellus...

When you need to admit that you mistyped a post, you may feel a slight sting. That's pride fuckin' wit' ya. Fuck pride. Pride only hurts, it never helps.

306 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:59:18pm

re: #261 cliffster

Another good question. You're looking very brown today, son. Have you been drinking? Jumping the border illegally?

I strongly favor closing the border and enforcing the law, regardless of what it does to the bottom line of the US Chamber of Commerce membership. Even so, this Arizona law is a very bad idea for the very reason you suggest.

My late stepfather and I used to go to work at about the same time of day (6AM) and from the same neighborhood (our homes were less than a mile apart). He was stopped by the police at least once a month and sometimes a lot more than that. I was never stopped at all. He was Hispanic, and looked it. I am mostly Scots-Irish and look it. The cops never asked him, "What are you doing in an upscale white neighborhood this time of day?" but that was pretty obviously the reason for their interest in him. He was a famous Tex-Mex chef, btw, and the author of a number of related cookbooks.

307 albusteve  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:59:35pm

I'm out
wish I could stay

308 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 1:59:50pm

re: #234 LudwigVanQuixote

Link? I am not calling you out. I want to know how bad a problem this is.

A couple of links on kidnapping.

A couple of links on murder and violence.

The majority of it seems to be on the Mexico side, but still right on the border, mostly related to the illicit drug trade. I am sure there is some bleed-over onto the American side of the border.

I recall reading a story about American police being murdered on the US side by border crossing cartels, but I can not find a link for that. It may be poor google-fu, or poor memory.

309 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:00:04pm

re: #286 Obdicut

BUt a lot of those are about Juarez, not about El Paso.

And I don't see what articles like this

Part of the platform of the Springboro, OH, tea party organization (Nirth Certifikit appears at #17)

have to do with the border violence.

What search did you use?

I'm really not finding much in the way of hard statistics that shows large numbers of either kidnappings or murders in El Paso.

Nothing is happening in El Paso, it's all in Juarez, a few feet away. Except for a case last year where a US Army soldier was recruited to kill a cartel guy in El Paso. It was in the El Paso Times (and in my link collection.)

310 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:00:14pm

re: #307 albusteve

It does look to be a lively afternoon :D

311 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:00:28pm

re: #293 reine.de.tout

Hoops - if you're a sucker - I'm one too.
There are worse things to do than to give some money to someone who can use it more than you can.

What kind of Gov't allows their cripple children at the border begging for 5 cents?
Really..Mexico should elect me for Prez..I'd have that country shapped up and richer than hell in no time...Free Market principles and mfg. I'd give China a run for it's money...
Elect me!

312 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:00:48pm

re: #309 wrenchwench

Ah, thanks, that's the impression that I was getting.

313 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:01:15pm

re: #299 windsagio

Only illegal immigrants deal in drugs. Someone tell the Crips fast! Or my goddamn neighbor (or is pot different)?

it SHOULD be...

grumblegrumblewasteofmoneygrumble

314 A Man for all Seasons  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:01:42pm

re: #300 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #293 reine.de.tout

For exactly those sorts o reasons, some colleagues of mine suggested that I not attend a conference in India. They said simply that I do not have he sort of constitution that can remain sane after seeing thousands of starving children.

Have you seen slum dog millionaire?

315 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:01:43pm

re: #306 Shiplord Kirel

Problem is, the border is impossible to effectively close. There are some tactics that could be used to help the immigrant problem (if not as effectively as actual immigration reform), but as far as smuggling goes, its wide-freakin-open. If someone really wants to cross it, we'd cripple the entire nation trying to keep is secure.

316 iossarian  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:02:55pm

re: #300 LudwigVanQuixote

"The poor you always have with you." Sad but true. I like to reflect that the poor are probably better off today than yesterday, and hopefully will be better off still tomorrow.

317 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:03:02pm

re: #313 Aceofwhat?

I think its hard to actually get arrested for that around here.

Not that I'd try >>

318 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:03:11pm

re: #309 wrenchwench

Nothing is happening in El Paso, it's all in Juarez, a few feet away. Except for a case last year where a US Army soldier was recruited to kill a cartel guy in El Paso. It was in the El Paso Times (and in my link collection.)

It's happening in almost every city along the border. Tijuana is really bad too.

319 Lidane  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:04:38pm

re: #306 Shiplord Kirel

I strongly favor closing the border and enforcing the law, regardless of what it does to the bottom line of the US Chamber of Commerce membership.

Won't happen. Ever. Too many goods cross over in both directions on an hourly basis to ever completely seal the border. If anyone even tried, the business interests on both sides would lobby like all hell to stop it.

320 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:05:00pm

re: #316 iossarian

"The poor you always have with you." Sad but true. I like to reflect that the poor are probably better off today than yesterday, and hopefully will be better off still tomorrow.

Until Moshiach. Whenever I need some extra kevannah for Amidah, I think of the various things I have seen from the third world.

321 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:05:12pm

re: #311 HoosierHoops

What kind of Gov't allows their cripple children at the border begging for 5 cents?
Really..Mexico should elect me for Prez..I'd have that country shapped up and richer than hell in no time...Free Market principles and mfg. I'd give China a run for it's money...
Elect me!

Hoops - one of the cruises I took, years ago, the cruise director advised us before we got off in Mexico, the Gov't had asked the cruise line to ask its passengers to avoid giving money to the kids or buying stuff from them. The Government wants the kids in school; the parents had the kids out by the docks selling chicklets. How damn awful must a family's situation be to have their kids out selling chiclets for five cents each?

Last one I took, two years ago - there are these sort of flea market style bazaars set up by the docks now, and I saw very few kids. It seems some of the parents are now able to make a living at these flea markets and hopefully the kids are in school.

322 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:05:17pm

re: #314 HoosierHoops

Have you seen slum dog millionaire?

Great movie.

323 Macha  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:05:28pm

re: #233 Obdicut

Yes. And this bill is more politics, of a very ugly kind. This bill is going to hamper law enforcement. It's going to embolden the militia groups. And it only raises the stakes for any illegal immigrant to avoid law enforcement and makes them more reliant on the criminal gangs.

First of all, it is a misnomer to call them militias. They are ugly gangs full of racial predjuice, nothing more. It is going to be a nightmare for Arizona citizens of Mexican ethnicity. I'm not Mexican, but my daughter-in-law and grandchildren by marriage are and they live in Arizona. BTW, their family has been in the USA for over a hundred years. I am very afraid at what they might encounter with these lunatics running loose.
As to controlling the border, everyone sat on their hands twenty years ago when the problem was escalating. The fact was that if someone illegal got past border control, they were home free. And they came because there were jobs here. I've talked with dozens of Americans who justified their hiring of illegals, saying they couldn't run their business without them. Translation= I can make a whole lot more money that way. Now that the money has dried up, the same people are all of a sudden hot to control immigration and shoot people. F**k them. I'm not saying there isn't a problem at the border. This is NOT the way to go about dealing with it.

324 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:07:01pm

Illegal immigrants that want a better life don't cause me much worry.

It's the murderous thugs, the drug cartels, the sex slavers, that take advantage of our porous border that cause me much concern.

325 cliffster  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:07:05pm

re: #306 Shiplord Kirel

Yeah it's insane. Obviously, we can't just let a stream of people coming in willy-nilly. Something has to be done there, and something that works better than what we have now. But this demonization of Mexicans that are here is out of control. These are people who are desperate, they work for way less money than we would, and they bust their asses. Ignoring the human aspect entirely, if we were to take the illegal immigrants factor out of the economy, it would screw everything up completely. Careful what you ask for, Ernie.. Jose does more for you than you realize.

326 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:07:42pm

re: #324 Slumbering Behemoth

I agree, but gotta ask...

"Sex Slavers"? Is that an issue?

327 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:08:23pm

re: #326 windsagio

I agree, but gotta ask...

"Sex Slavers"? Is that an issue?

Yes, it is.

328 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:08:47pm

re: #327 Dark_Falcon

I didn't know that, and I don't think I wanna know any more >

329 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:09:17pm

re: #318 Floral Giraffe

It's happening in almost every city along the border. Tijuana is really bad too.

Yes, in fact it's bad all over Mexico. (I meant in the Juarez area, there's not much violence on the US side.)

330 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:10:56pm

re: #326 windsagio

I agree, but gotta ask...

"Sex Slavers"? Is that an issue?

Unfortunately yes.

Watch these two videos and then simply cry for a while.

Sunitha Krishnan fights sex slavery

[Link: www.ted.com...]

Kevin Bales: How to combat modern slavery

[Link: www.ted.com...]

331 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:10:59pm

re: #260 HoosierHoops

Hi you! I'm praying you get that killer job you applied for..
So speaking of Nogales...Me and a few buddies spent a weekend there a few year ago..It's a long story...So here is what I first noticed.. On the American side it is pretty much a normal town..On the other side of the razor wire it is a different world.. The poverty level there is heartbreaking and an a real eye opener..I had never seen anything like it..Crap some of the parking for the rental was between Donkeys in the side streets..We ended up driving back out and walking back in...Mexico should be fucking embarrassed at their Gov't..Fucking pathelic..
/Fun story.. I was walking through the flea market when a bunch of kids started following me yelling Reggie Miller! Reggie Miller! I turned around..What? I was wearing a Pacer coat..And they all knew Reggie Miller and were thrilled...Yelling Reggie..Reggie!
I'm a sucker..I gave them some cash..At the border they have crippled children selling candy for 5 fucking cents..You sit there in line while a small child walks up to your window asking for 5 fucking cents..How much?
You hand them a few bucks and tell them to keep the change hardly able to hold back the tears...Fuck you Mexico...Do something for your babies..
/rant off...

Here is a movie that will wipe you out, "The Rose Sellers". (Might be hard to find.) Go through to the credits--there is a weird surprise.

[Link: www.imdb.com...]

332 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:11:51pm

re: #330 LudwigVanQuixote

I believe you, but I'm not actually gonna read your links. No offense I hope :D

333 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:11:56pm

Don't act on border security.
Don't act on the illegals.
Don't act on the home grown jihadists.
Don't worry that the middle is steadily being paralyzed by the fringes.
Don't be concerned that the paranoid anti-democratic reactions are following right behind.
Don't worry, be happy.
God Bless America.

334 Reginald Perrin  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:12:09pm

re: #327 Dark_Falcon
Weirdmay itshay astlay ightnay atway ethay esspoolcay

ou'veyay otgay ailmay

335 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:12:25pm

re: #333 Spare O'Lake

+1 for the most productive and helpful post of the day!

Kudos!

336 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:13:44pm

re: #325 cliffster

agree completely

337 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:14:51pm

re: #332 windsagio

I believe you, but I'm not actually gonna read your links. No offense I hope :D

They are talks from TED by people who fight this. Fire up your courage. You should know about this.

338 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:15:07pm

re: #335 windsagio

+1 for the most productive and helpful post of the day!

Kudos!

From Canada.

339 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:16:38pm

re: #326 windsagio

I agree, but gotta ask...

"Sex Slavers"? Is that an issue?

Awhile back I watched an episode of "America's Most Wanted". A Mexican-American woman would go down to Mexico posing as a business woman, offering a better life for Mexican girls in America. Lots of promises made, but the end result was girls being sold into the sex slave trade.

It is a very real, and serious issue.

340 cliffster  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:17:20pm

Gotta run. l8r jokers. Might be back this evening.

341 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:18:41pm

re: #337 LudwigVanQuixote

Fine, fine. *holds nose and jumps in*

re: #338 Stanley Sea

Heh, forgot that part.

342 Nemesis6  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:20:33pm

Revolution Muslim... that organization or group or whatever it is, is the brainchild of the nutjob Yousef Al-Khattab, AKA: Joseph Cohen, the former Jew turned fundagelical Muslim now standing around with "Nuke Israel" signs.

343 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:20:33pm

re: #334 Reginald Perrin

Weirdmay itshay astlay ightnay atway ethay esspoolcay

ou'veyay otgay ailmay

I'll check.

344 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:20:37pm

re: #325 cliffster

Honestly, if I were a Mexican citizen, you'd bet your ass I would try to escape the hell that is going on there. The people of Mexico deserve better from their gov't.

I do believe surrendering the "war on drugs" would have a largely beneficial impact.

345 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:23:21pm

re: #334 Reginald Perrin

Weirdmay itshay astlay ightnay atway ethay esspoolcay

ou'veyay otgay ailmay

No message from you has been received.

346 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:25:39pm

re: #344 Slumbering Behemoth

Governments don't like to admit they've wasted billions of dollars and thousands of lives tho' >>

347 garhighway  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:26:10pm

re: #213 albusteve

we'll have to see how 'stupid' it is...the border states have begged the govt for help but they won't do shit to secure the border...it's a crisis, a security issue and it affects everyone...fucking politics

Here's a partial list of what the Border Patrol did in 2008, so that we're clear on the definition of not doing shit:

FY 2008 Accomplishments:
 Border Patrol agent staffing increased by 17 percent, from 14,923 in FY 2007 to 17,499 at the end of FY 2008.
 CBP officers staffing increased by 7.3 percent, from 18,389 in FY 2007 to 19,726 at the end of FY 2008 and agriculture specialists staffing increased by 5.5 percent, from 2,159 to 2,277 at the end of FY 2008.
 Through the deployment of the right mix of new resources and enforcement operations supported by intelligence activities, CBP increased the FY 2007 miles of border under effective control from 599 miles to 757 miles at the end of FY 2008.
 CBP apprehended over 723,000 people between our ports of entry and encountered over 224,000 inadmissible aliens at the ports of entry.
 CBP processed over 400 million pedestrians and passengers and more than 121 million cars, trucks, buses, trains, vessels and aircraft at 327 ports of entry.
 CBP began the final phase of the San Diego Border Infrastructure System (BIS). A significant milestone was achieved this past year with the award of a contract for the final 5 mile portion of the 14 mile BIS project in the San Diego Sector. This segment of the project, which includes Smuggler’s Gulch and Border Field State Park, is under construction and is tentatively scheduled to be completed in May 2009.
 CBP expanded the Model Ports Initiative to 18 additional airports. This was a joint venture between federal agencies, the travel industry, airlines and airport authorities to improve our processes for clearing and welcoming travelers into the United States.
 CBP launched Global Entry, a customer service and security program designed to expedite the screening and processing of pre-approved, low-risk U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents traveling from abroad to the U.S.

FYI

[Link: www.dhs.gov...]

348 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:27:34pm

re: #321 reine.de.tout

Hoops - one of the cruises I took, years ago, the cruise director advised us before we got off in Mexico, the Gov't had asked the cruise line to ask its passengers to avoid giving money to the kids or buying stuff from them. The Government wants the kids in school; the parents had the kids out by the docks selling chicklets. How damn awful must a family's situation be to have their kids out selling chiclets for five cents each?

Last one I took, two years ago - there are these sort of flea market style bazaars set up by the docks now, and I saw very few kids. It seems some of the parents are now able to make a living at these flea markets and hopefully the kids are in school.

When I went to Ireland as a college kid, we got these packets of material for young Americans travelling abroad. One of them was about dealing with Gypsy kids begging at airports. Now, some of it was fine advice, the part that chapped my hide was that they told you, if the kids grabbed your stuff, to struggle with them, yell, lash out with your bags, and kick.

Right. To keep my travellers' checks, I'm going to KICK a child begging at the freaking airport.

349 windsagio  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:28:42pm

re: #347 garhighway

I'd give that 53 updings if I could, fav'd >>

350 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:29:22pm

re: #285 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, you were raised Catholic all right! My father can't deal with driving the slow drive back into the States from Tijuana. He keeps handing money out the window, and then feels like crap when he runs out.

Thanks for prayers--I'll let folks know if anything comes of the interview.

I was at the border yesterday. All the misery and poverty is on the U.S. side. (Windsor/Detroit)

351 garhighway  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:30:19pm

re: #349 windsagio

I'd give that 53 updings if I could, fav'd >>

Muchas Gracias.

352 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:30:30pm

re: #325 cliffster

Yeah it's insane. Obviously, we can't just let a stream of people coming in willy-nilly. Something has to be done there, and something that works better than what we have now. But this demonization of Mexicans that are here is out of control. These are people who are desperate, they work for way less money than we would, and they bust their asses. Ignoring the human aspect entirely, if we were to take the illegal immigrants factor out of the economy, it would screw everything up completely. Careful what you ask for, Ernie.. Jose does more for you than you realize.

Do you realize what you are you saying? That our national economy depends on exploiting people who work cheaply specifically because they have no real rights?
Working illegals is often not really about wage rates. In many industries, wage rates are as high as for citizens. When ICE shut down that Del Monte plant a couple of years and rounded up the whole day shift, hundreds of citizens and legal immigrants stood in line a few days later to apply replace them. Working illegals is about sidestepping OSHA compliance, tax paperwork, workers' comp, union membership, professional licensing, sexual harassment laws, and a galaxy of other rights and protections that we take for granted but that don't apply to either Maria the housekeeper or Jose the $40 an hour electrician.

353 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:30:48pm

re: #346 windsagio

I don't think that's the case. I think it's the preservation of the status quo. Declaring the "War on Drugs" to be the abject failure that it is, and thus ending it, would mean a lot of highly paid people lose their jobs, and a lot of obscenely wealthy cartels would lose their income.

I suspect that any US POTUS that decided to pursue such a thing would have to weather many assassination attempts.

354 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:32:05pm

re: #348 SanFranciscoZionist

When I went to Ireland as a college kid, we got these packets of material for young Americans travelling abroad. One of them was about dealing with Gypsy kids begging at airports. Now, some of it was fine advice, the part that chapped my hide was that they told you, if the kids grabbed your stuff, to struggle with them, yell, lash out with your bags, and kick.

Right. To keep my travellers' checks, I'm going to KICK a child begging at the freaking airport.

In Florence, on a quiet street, I felt something going on with my back pocket. I swung around elbow first to clear the pocket and caught a nine yr old Gypsy girl just above the bridge of the nose. Her mother was there, so she probably got a beating for blowing the lift.

355 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:32:14pm

re: #342 Nemesis6

Revolution Muslim... that organization or group or whatever it is, is the brainchild of the nutjob Yousef Al-Khattab, AKA: Joseph Cohen, the former Jew turned fundagelical Muslim now standing around with "Nuke Israel" signs.

Oy, a landsman. Upding for 'fundangelical'.

356 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:34:13pm

re: #342 Nemesis6

Revolution Muslim... that organization or group or whatever it is, is the brainchild of the nutjob Yousef Al-Khattab, AKA: Joseph Cohen, the former Jew turned fundagelical Muslim now standing around with "Nuke Israel" signs.

Those Jews who betray the people have always been amongst our worst foes.

357 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:36:11pm

re: #354 Decatur Deb

In Florence, on a quiet street, I felt something going on with my back pocket. I swung around elbow first to clear the pocket and caught a nine yr old Gypsy girl just above the bridge of the nose. Her mother was there, so she probably got a beating for blowing the lift.

My father and a friend of his once got their wallets lifted by a Roma kid in St. Petersburg. Her mom then sent her back to return them. The cash was gone, the credit cards were still there. They lost like twenty-five bucks in rubles.

No, I don't know either.

358 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:37:15pm

re: #352 Shiplord Kirel

Do you realize what you are you saying? That our national economy depends on exploiting people who work cheaply specifically because they have no real rights?
Working illegals is often not really about wage rates. In many industries, wage rates are as high as for citizens. When ICE shut down that Del Monte plant a couple of years and rounded up the whole day shift, hundreds of citizens and legal immigrants stood in line a few days later to apply replace them. Working illegals is about sidestepping OSHA compliance, tax paperwork, workers' comp, union membership, professional licensing, sexual harassment laws, and a galaxy of other rights and protections that we take for granted but that don't apply to either Maria the housekeeper or Jose the $40 an hour electrician.

THANK YOU!re: #325 cliffster

Yeah it's insane. Obviously, we can't just let a stream of people coming in willy-nilly. Something has to be done there, and something that works better than what we have now. But this demonization of Mexicans that are here is out of control. These are people who are desperate, they work for way less money than we would, and they bust their asses. Ignoring the human aspect entirely, if we were to take the illegal immigrants factor out of the economy, it would screw everything up completely. Careful what you ask for, Ernie.. Jose does more for you than you realize.

Yeah exploiting people and creating a perpetual underclass so that some corporate bastards can squeeze some more profits is moral? And then you have the fucking chutzpah to claim you are doing those people a favor?!?

That is insulting.

I hate Republicans like you not only because you espouse things that are fucking evil only for your own profit, but you have the chutzpah to try to sel it as a social kindness.

359 Reginald Perrin  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:40:27pm

re: #345 Dark_Falcon

Dog is not infallible, mail inadvertently was sent to space jesus.

360 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:40:27pm

re: #357 SanFranciscoZionist

My father and a friend of his once got their wallets lifted by a Roma kid in St. Petersburg. Her mom then sent her back to return them. The cash was gone, the credit cards were still there. They lost like twenty-five bucks in rubles.

No, I don't know either.

The Italian pick-pockets were admirable. Two friends were wearing backpacks in Rome, and the wallet was taken from one, the Lira (only) removed, and they had the confidence and style to put the wallet back in the other lady's pack.

361 webevintage  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:41:05pm

re: #333 Spare O'Lake

Don't act on border security.
Don't act on the illegals.
Don't act on the home grown jihadists.
Don't worry that the middle is steadily being paralyzed by the fringes.
Don't be concerned that the paranoid anti-democratic reactions are following right behind.
Don't worry, be happy.
God Bless America.

Huh?

362 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:42:10pm

re: #357 SanFranciscoZionist

My father and a friend of his once got their wallets lifted by a Roma kid in St. Petersburg. Her mom then sent her back to return them. The cash was gone, the credit cards were still there. They lost like twenty-five bucks in rubles.

No, I don't know either.

One ruble = $0.04.

363 cliffster  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:42:17pm

re: #358 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah exploiting people and creating a perpetual underclass so that some corporate bastards can squeeze some more profits is moral? And then you have the fucking chutzpah to claim you are doing those people a favor?!?

That is insulting.

I hate Republicans like you not only because you espouse things that are fucking evil only for your own profit, but you have the chutzpah to try to sel it as a social kindness.


Yeah, I'm a real fucking horrible guy. I love watching people suffer and I get off on knowing that people are getting taken advantage of. Just a typical Republican, that's me.

364 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:43:18pm

re: #358 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah exploiting people and creating a perpetual underclass so that some corporate bastards can squeeze some more profits is moral? And then you have the fucking chutzpah to claim you are doing those people a favor?!?

Yeah, I thought we had settled all that in 1865.

365 justaminute  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:43:41pm

I feel sorry for anyone that thinks the AZ police will be handle to handle this new law. The Gov. says they are not able to racial profile. I guess she never heard of Driving while Black.

I meet my Iranian husband during the American hostage crisis in Iran while I was a municipal court clerk in OKC. An OKC police officer gave him 11 traffic violations tickets at one time. Being a clerk in the court it was not uncommon for Iranians to be unfairly targeted at this time. I was a clerk for the Judge that every officer hated because she routinely called them out for their abuses. My husband was lucky because she was handling the arraignment docket the day his tickets were due. All of the tickets were dismissed and the traffic officer had a very uncomfortable session with the Judge and his Sargent.

My husband like to joke that it would have been cheaper for him in the long run if he had just paid the violations.

366 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:44:14pm

re: #358 LudwigVanQuixote

It's not just Republicans.

367 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:44:45pm

re: #358 LudwigVanQuixote

Wow. That's not what I was getting from his/her comment. What Cliffster wrote is true, whether we like it or not, and I did not get the impression that Cliffster likes it.

368 cliffster  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:44:59pm

re: #352 Shiplord Kirel

Do you realize what you are you saying? That our national economy depends on exploiting people who work cheaply specifically because they have no real rights?
Working illegals is often not really about wage rates. In many industries, wage rates are as high as for citizens. When ICE shut down that Del Monte plant a couple of years and rounded up the whole day shift, hundreds of citizens and legal immigrants stood in line a few days later to apply replace them. Working illegals is about sidestepping OSHA compliance, tax paperwork, workers' comp, union membership, professional licensing, sexual harassment laws, and a galaxy of other rights and protections that we take for granted but that don't apply to either Maria the housekeeper or Jose the $40 an hour electrician.

I suppose, if you want to really focus in on the bad aspects of what I was saying. In a lot of cases, it's a win-win. People have jobs, they send money back home, their families eat. It's neat how that works. In 100% of the cases, what they are doing is helping people, the same people who want to fucking round them up like cattle and ship them back to their poverty stricken home countries. That sounds like bad stuff to me. But please, do try and read the absolute worst possible shit into the things I say.

369 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:47:26pm

re: #368 cliffster

I think you both made excellent points in those comments, and I fear you may be talking past each other.

370 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:47:30pm

re: #367 Slumbering Behemoth

Wow. That's not what I was getting from his/her comment. What Cliffster wrote is true, whether we like it or not, and I did not get the impression that Cliffster likes it.

Me neither. I just thought he was saying that demonizing those who are here illegally but working hard for a better life is bad for everyone...

371 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:47:39pm

re: #362 Alouette

One ruble = $0.04.

OK, so they lost a lot of rubles. But it wasn't a tragedy.

372 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:48:13pm

Either we seal the border hermetically and patrol it aggressively or we leave it open a various checkpoint and create an enormous bureaucracy to register and track immigrants.

Both variants are expensive and mean a lot more government, which nobody seems to watn at this time.

The other option is to just wreck the economy to the point that immigrants have no more incentive to seek work here...

373 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:49:29pm

re: #366 wrenchwench

It's not just Republicans.

That is true.

374 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:50:07pm

re: #362 Alouette

One ruble = $0.04.


I was set upon by a pack of Roma kids in Moscow in 1993. Youngo nes, some of them preschoolders. I could not bring myself to hit them so I started whacking them with my newspaper, like bad puppies. It worked, I did not get pickpocketed...

375 Stanghazi  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:50:24pm

re: #367 Slumbering Behemoth

Wow. That's not what I was getting from his/her comment. What Cliffster wrote is true, whether we like it or not, and I did not get the impression that Cliffster likes it.

I agree. Ludwig is making me take a look deeper, but that definitely was not what I think about Cliff and this issue. Cliff's statement was closer to the reality I know.

376 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:50:46pm

re: #370 Aceofwhat?

Me neither. I just thought he was saying that demonizing those who are here illegally but working hard for a better life is bad for everyone...

That's precisely the impression I got from it. :shrugs:

377 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:52:01pm

re: #372 ralphieboy

Either we seal the border hermetically and patrol it aggressively or we leave it open a various checkpoint and create an enormous bureaucracy to register and track immigrants.

Both variants are expensive and mean a lot more government, which nobody seems to watn at this time.

The other option is to just wreck the economy to the point that immigrants have no more incentive to seek work here...

I like weird solutions. We can't control everything from Brownsville to San Diego, but it's a lot easier to patrol the Panama Canal. How 'bout a little friendly Manifest Destiny?

378 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:53:02pm

re: #377 Decatur Deb

Bad Deb! No soup for you!

379 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:53:59pm

re: #375 Stanley Sea

I agree. Ludwig is making me take a look deeper, but that definitely was not what I think about Cliff and this issue. Cliff's statement was closer to the reality I know.

So if you really want to help immigrants you see to it that they have to be paid just like American citizens would AND you make certain that the immigrants need work papers to get those jobs.

That way you prevent the creation of an underclass and you dry up the pool of people who would exploit them. You also make the attempt to come to America illegally less attractive.

Anything else is simply pretending you are doing some fellow a kindness by paying him less than a buck an hour to pick your fruit.

380 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 2:56:34pm

re: #368 cliffster

I suppose, if you want to really focus in on the bad aspects of what I was saying. In a lot of cases, it's a win-win. People have jobs, they send money back home, their families eat. It's neat how that works. In 100% of the cases, what they are doing is helping people, the same people who want to fucking round them up like cattle and ship them back to their poverty stricken home countries. That sounds like bad stuff to me. But please, do try and read the absolute worst possible shit into the things I say.

I don't share Ludwig's stridency, btw, but I do understand the thinking behind it. The bad aspects of this are what they are and they are a controlling motivation. It is not at all impossible to gain control of this, naysayers and defeatists notwithstanding. Existing resources, like Social Security, can be used on the spot to determine whether workers are legally employed, if ICE and other law enforcement are empowered to use those resources.
I don't advocate rounding up millions of illegal workers and kicking them back to their native hellholes, however. It would be much easier to round up the lawless profiteers who exploit them. You wouldn't need to fine or jail very many of them for the rest to get the message. Whatever need we have for foreign workers can be met by increasing the number of worker visas and, especially, by streamlining the application and admission process.
Obeying the law is an integral part of the free enterprise system, since free enterprise cannot exist without the law.

381 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 3:02:50pm

Freepers react to the Arizona immigration bill
Seriously ugly stuff even for Freeperland. Lots of talk about militias, landmines, "truant brats and anchor babies," etc. The "triumph of states rights" is a common theme.

382 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 3:04:20pm

re: #359 Reginald Perrin

Dog is not infallible, mail inadvertently was sent to space jesus.

No problem. Just send it when you get a chance.

383 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 3:04:37pm

BBL

384 Reginald Perrin  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 3:07:43pm

re: #382 Dark_Falcon

Done
Dog also sent a copy to his long necked friend

385 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 3:14:26pm

re: #379 LudwigVanQuixote

So if you really want to help immigrants you see to it that they have to be paid just like American citizens would AND you make certain that the immigrants need work papers to get those jobs.

That way you prevent the creation of an underclass and you dry up the pool of people who would exploit them. You also make the attempt to come to America illegally less attractive.

Anything else is simply pretending you are doing some fellow a kindness by paying him less than a buck an hour to pick your fruit.

This precisely represents my feelings on the issue. So precisely, in fact, that it would be pointless for me to type it out, so i'll just quote this.

Until Americans, as a group, realize that they should be thankful for having been lucky enough to be born here, rather than mistaking ourselves virtuous by accident of birth, we will never again be the shining city upon a hill.

We aren't individually or as a group superior, we don't know more, and we aren't here because we deserve to be. We are here because we are here because we are here. The thing that makes this country so amazing is our system of laws, our institutions, our shared history, and the diversity of culture that is inherent to us being truly a nation of immigrants.

It is for this reason that the "America Fuck Yeah!!!" crowd so enrages me. American exceptionalism is nothing more or less than a very thinly veiled disdain for the world which created the conditions that allowed us to be so fortunate as to exist at all. I am grateful beyond description to be an American. I am grateful to have been so fucking lucky to have popped out of the right vagina. Don't think for a fucking second, any of you, that this makes us better than anyone, or I will nerd rage on you over the internetz. I know, huge threat, but it's all I have.

386 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 3:18:21pm

re: #384 Reginald Perrin

Done
Dog also sent a copy to his long necked friend

Message read. I'll reply to it shortly.

387 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 3:20:49pm

re: #384 Reginald Perrin

Hee Hee.

388 Reginald Perrin  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 3:21:41pm

re: #386 Dark_Falcon

No hurry
Think about it and offer suggestions
Like I wrote, this is a work in progress and will not be ready any time soon

389 Reginald Perrin  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 3:22:12pm

re: #387 Floral Giraffe

You like?

390 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 3:23:58pm

re: #389 Reginald Perrin

'Tis wicked funny!

391 Reginald Perrin  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 3:26:41pm

re: #390 Floral Giraffe

Heavy emphasis on the wicked part

Been working on this project for over two years
and it is time to start to wrap it up

392 Lidane  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 3:27:22pm

re: #381 Shiplord Kirel

Freepers react to the Arizona immigration bill
Seriously ugly stuff even for Freeperland. Lots of talk about militias, landmines, "truant brats and anchor babies," etc. The "triumph of states rights" is a common theme.

Yeah. Jon Stewart's message at the top of this thread? It totally applies to the freepers too. Fuck them all sideways with a 2x4 and no lube. =P

Also, sincere apologies to any Lizards in Arizona, but that law makes me feel like if I flew into Arizona without a birth certificate, Social Security card, and passport, they'd try to deport me for looking at someone the wrong way just because I'm Latina.

I know Texas has its own crazy to deal with, and I also know that Arizona is a lovely state, but I'd rather take my chances with the bugfuck crazy religious loons here than the bugfuck crazy anti-Mexican loons over there.

393 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 3:28:54pm

re: #392 Lidane

Yeah. Jon Stewart's message at the top of this thread? It totally applies to the freepers too. Fuck them all sideways with a 2x4 and no lube. =P

Also, sincere apologies to any Lizards in Arizona, but that law makes me feel like if I flew into Arizona without a birth certificate, Social Security card, and passport, they'd try to deport me for looking at someone the wrong way just because I'm Latina.

I know Texas has its own crazy to deal with, and I also know that Arizona is a lovely state, but I'd rather take my chances with the bugfuck crazy religious loons here than the bugfuck crazy anti-Mexican loons over there.

Visit New Mexico! Where Arizona and Texas meet!

394 Lidane  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 3:33:59pm
395 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 3:38:51pm

re: #394 Lidane

Heh.

Mmmm, reasonable suspicionies! My favorite!

396 webevintage  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 3:39:18pm

re: #381 Shiplord Kirel

Freepers react to the Arizona immigration bill
Seriously ugly stuff even for Freeperland. Lots of talk about militias, landmines, "truant brats and anchor babies," etc. The "triumph of states rights" is a common theme.

So they are discussing Michelle Malkin?
/

397 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 3:40:28pm

re: #392 Lidane

Yeah. Jon Stewart's message at the top of this thread? It totally applies to the freepers too. Fuck them all sideways with a 2x4 and no lube. =P

Also, sincere apologies to any Lizards in Arizona, but that law makes me feel like if I flew into Arizona without a birth certificate, Social Security card, and passport, they'd try to deport me for looking at someone the wrong way just because I'm Latina.

I know Texas has its own crazy to deal with, and I also know that Arizona is a lovely state, but I'd rather take my chances with the bugfuck crazy religious loons here than the bugfuck crazy anti-Mexican loons over there.

Howdy, neighbor! I had the misfortune to be born elsewhere (England in fact) and spent most of my childhood in Missouri, but my family is from Texas and I have lived here for going-on 40 years now.
Though addicted to weird beliefs, the local religionists are not without charm or good intentions, which is a huge contrast to Mexican-hating bigots (many of whom also hate everyone else, including themselves, with equal fervor).
A while back, a fundamentalist preacher ended a sharp exchange over creationism by inviting me to one of his barbecues. Now, I had heard of this man's skill as a barbecue cook. I declared that he had found my weakness, and that I gratefully accepted. I had a great time at the little bash (400 people) too, even without beer.

398 Lidane  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 4:02:20pm

re: #397 Shiplord Kirel

Oh, not all the religious folks around here are bad. Some are downright charming. I've had plenty of great conversations and meals with folks who are evangelical and/or fundamentalist folks, and where our religious views are totally divergent. They know upfront that they're not going to convert me, so in general, we get along just fine.

The fire breathing loons like the imbeciles on the State Board of Education, however, make my skin crawl. Still, I'd rather deal with their idiocy than with the idiocy of the anti-Mexican bigots. The religious nuts won't try to deport me or arrest me if I look at them wrong.

399 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 4:15:55pm

re: #305 Aceofwhat?

Ok. I made it quite clear that i was referring to your original post, since you never said you wrote it in error.

Just say you screwed your post up instead of pretending like we're inventing things. Remember the words of Marcellus...

When you need to admit that you mistyped a post, you may feel a slight sting. That's pride fuckin' wit' ya. Fuck pride. Pride only hurts, it never helps.

Bullshit. I repeatedly explained what I meant in manner a 5 year old could understand yet you and your sidekick took the tack of trying to put words in my mouth regardless, which is a method of spin that this forum is usually concerned with debunking, and it is dishonest.

Don't give me this smartass philosophy weaseling as an excuse.

400 Dr. Shalit  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 5:47:05pm

Anyone, Who Puts a Threat of "DEATH IN THE NAME of RELIGION" - IS A NUTTER in the year "2010 CE." Seems Like "Islamists" take the "NUTTER PRIZE" as a "Badge of Honor" in 2010 or ANY OTHER RECENT YEAR - for the last 1400 or so. That is ALL. -S-

401 Pythagoras  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 8:08:07pm

It isn't easy to explain the behavior of the Islamists without postulating the existence of a "devil."

Suppose there is a "devil" (defined as a supernatural being who hates all things human and desires our destruction into eternal damnation -- into a place I'll arbitrarily name Hell.) Would not he/she want PRECISELY what the Islamists do. There could be nothing more pleasing to him/her than someone killing themselves in the act of killing lots of innocents.

In addition to causing lots of pain and grief, it is the most reliable mechanism ever invented for transporting a soul to Hell.

This also might be the closest thing in the known universe to "f*cking yourself."

402 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 8:48:13pm

re: #401 Pythagoras

You're a lunatic.

403 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 9:32:22pm

re: #401 Pythagoras

It isn't easy to explain the behavior of the Islamists without postulating the existence of a "devil."

Suppose there is a "devil" (defined as a supernatural being who hates all things human and desires our destruction into eternal damnation -- into a place I'll arbitrarily name Hell.) Would not he/she want PRECISELY what the Islamists do. There could be nothing more pleasing to him/her than someone killing themselves in the act of killing lots of innocents.

In addition to causing lots of pain and grief, it is the most reliable mechanism ever invented for transporting a soul to Hell.

This also might be the closest thing in the known universe to "f*cking yourself."

I can't even begin with all that's wrong with that.

But just to start with, killing innocent people would be against the Devil's wishes, because those innocent people would go to heaven not Hell.

Secondly, it's not like no other religion has ever gone batshit bonkers round the bend at times.

Should I suggest that the Catholic Church is clearly the product of the Devil because of how unarguably evil the Inquisition was?

404 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Apr 23, 2010 11:38:43pm

re: #403 jamesfirecat

I can't even begin with all that's wrong with that.

...

Should I suggest that the Catholic Church is clearly the product of the Devil because of how unarguably evil the Inquisition was?

I have read articles that suggest it was the Islamic influence on Spain that make the Inquisition so awful.

And that "Muslim aggression" led to the Crusades.

And that killing babies to use their blood to make matzohs led to the Pogroms...

There is always an excuse for a religion to be barbaric, and it is always lies outside that particular religion.

405 reidr  Sat, Apr 24, 2010 6:04:59am

re: #348 SanFranciscoZionist

When I went to Ireland as a college kid, we got these packets of material for young Americans travelling abroad. One of them was about dealing with Gypsy kids begging at airports. Now, some of it was fine advice, the part that chapped my hide was that they told you, if the kids grabbed your stuff, to struggle with them, yell, lash out with your bags, and kick.

Right. To keep my travellers' checks, I'm going to KICK a child begging at the freaking airport.

I went to Lima, Peru several years ago. Typical tourist. Walking down the street, some kids around 7-10 years old started trying to sell me stuff. It's pretty common to have people hawking things everywhere you go, so it became habit to say, "No, gracias". But the number of them grew and they started getting more intense with the shouting. After a moment, it was clear that it was a planned thing and that they were pickpocketing me in the chaos. A local guy happened to be there and yelled at them to scram, but I think I would've felt quite justified in pushing at or even kicking at them. They weren't very big, but it was a weird feeling to be trapped in the middle of this throng. And it happened so fast, and I was with several other people who somehow didn't notice and just kept walking. It doesn't sound much different from what you were told. Now I know what "street urchins" refers to....

They only got a pair of sunglasses, by the way. I happened to put my wallet in a pocket that was hard to get to.

406 Pythagoras  Sat, Apr 24, 2010 7:09:26pm

re: #403 jamesfirecat

I can't even begin with all that's wrong with that.

But just to start with, killing innocent people would be against the Devil's wishes, because those innocent people would go to heaven not Hell.

Secondly, it's not like no other religion has ever gone batshit bonkers round the bend at times.

Should I suggest that the Catholic Church is clearly the product of the Devil because of how unarguably evil the Inquisition was?

1) Wouldn't the innocents go to heaven eventually anyways? My point was that the suicide bombing "seals the deal" on the one subject.

2) I didn't say anything about other religions.

3) "". However, selfish evil has other explanations without positing the existence of a "devil."

4) Thanks for at least making points I can respond to. I'm a bit surprised by the reaction. It was, I thought, just an amusing hypothetical.

407 vinnievin  Tue, Apr 27, 2010 1:41:02pm

great bit - thanks for posting it


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