A Banner Week for Right Wing Xenophobia

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Now that Arizona has enacted a repressive law conceived by people connected with white supremacist organizations, what’s the next step?

Arizona legislature bans ethnic-studies programs, of course!

But wait, there’s more! They’re on a roll.

In another controversial shift in state education policy, the Wall Street Journal has reported that the Arizona Department of Education has begun telling principals to remove teachers who speak English with an accent from classes with students who are still learning English.

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698 comments
1 Kragar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:28:54am

Next, we can pass some laws benefitting those of pure Arizonian bloodlines!

/

2 Mocking Jay  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:29:30am
In another controversial shift in state education policy, the Wall Street Journal has reported that the Arizona Department of Education has begun telling principals to remove teachers who speak English with an accent from classes with students who are still learning English.

Holy crap.

3 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:29:38am

Then I guess that hillbilly banjo class I took at the local junior college (for real) would be out?

4 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:30:32am
In another controversial shift in state education policy, the Wall Street Journal has reported that the Arizona Department of Education has begun telling principals to remove teachers who speak English with an accent from classes with students who are still learning English. Some school officials are complaining that the move will remove experienced teachers from classrooms that need them. Margaret Dugan, the state's deputy superintendent of schools, told the Journal the request is "politicizing the educational environment."

"Teachers should speak good grammar because kids pick up what they hear," Johanna Haver, an adviser to Arizona educators, told the Journal. "Where you draw the line is debatable."


Heh.

5 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:30:47am

re: #2 JasonA

Holy crap.

You know I'd like to make a joke here about Arizona and accents, but it doesn't really fly because despite spending a week there I didn't notice anything like a Texas drawl... but then maybe my memory is just acting up or I wasn't paying attention...

6 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:31:24am

Arizona has managed to make Texas look like a progressive state in less than a week.

7 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:31:26am

re: #2 JasonA

Holy crap.

I would not be able to teach English then, since Arizona ears are notably sensitive to my Ozark drawl.

8 Mocking Jay  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:31:44am

re: #5 jamesfirecat

You know I'd like to make a joke here about Arizona and accents, but it doesn't really fly because despite spending a week there I didn't notice anything like a Texas drawl... but then maybe my memory is just acting up or I wasn't paying attention...

Wonder if they'd have the balls to replace a teacher with a Texas drawl.

9 Kragar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:31:51am

re: #2 JasonA

Holy crap.

Seriously, WTF

10 freetoken  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:32:16am
... what’s the next step?

As I mentioned yesterday in this post:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
my own Congressman called the Arizona law a "fantastic starting point".

So, what is next?

1. Deporting children born in the US (as desired by my Congressman.)

2. Outlawing signs/documents in any language than English.

3. ?
4. ?
5. ?

11 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:32:23am
In another controversial shift in state education policy, the Wall Street Journal has reported that the Arizona Department of Education has begun telling principals to remove teachers who speak English with an accent from classes with students who are still learning English. Some school officials are complaining that the move will remove experienced teachers from classrooms that need them. Margaret Dugan, the state's deputy superintendent of schools, told the Journal the request is "politicizing the educational environment."

"Teachers should speak good grammar because kids pick up what they hear," Johanna Haver, an adviser to Arizona educators, told the Journal. "Where you draw the line is debatable."

Is that state fucked up right now or what?

12 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:33:06am

re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Seriously, WTF

reposted for emphasis...

13 pharmmajor  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:33:11am

[Link: reason.com...]

Arizona's Un-American Immigration Law
Shikha Dalmia, 04.28.10, 04:30 PM EDT
Why aren't anti-ObamaCare conservatives outraged by this instrusive move?

If universal health coverage was part of the longstanding liberal agenda to implement a European-style welfare state in America, Arizona's tough new anti-immigrant law represents the conservative agenda to install a European-style surveillance state. Indeed, the very same conservatives who could not find words strong enough to condemn the Europeanization of America under ObamaCare are now greeting the Arizona law--which will require residents to prove their lawful status to authorities on demand--with a cheerful smile and a shrug.

The two efforts together will nix any notion of American exceptionalism--the idea that America has a special relationship with Lady Liberty that no other country enjoys. Therefore some things that are permissible in other countries are simply not kosher here. (Is kosher still a permissible word for the English-only crowd?)

Rich Lowry, editor of National Review, less than two months ago lambasted American liberals for trying to use their unprecedented power after the 2008 elections to "bring the U.S. into line ... with Europe's nationalized health insurance and carbon rationing." But now the Arizona Republican establishment's effort to foist a German-style "your papers, please" immigration policy on its residents perturbs him not one bit. In fact, speculates Lowry, "Hitler would be crestfallen" that he is being compared to Arizona's wimpy approach.

Meanwhile, my dear friend and Weekly Standard Editor Bill Kristol, who worried endlessly about how ObamaCare would turn America into a high-tax, big welfare-state country, is resolutely blasé about the intrusive scope of the Arizona law because supposedly it just won't apply to too many people. "Will a few people get stopped perhaps because some policeman has reasonable suspicion that a person is illegal? Yes. That is the huge horrible civil rights violation that's going to occur five times or eight times or 13 times in Arizona," he scoffed on Fox News recently. If that's all that the law will do, then what is the point of it, dear Bill, given that there are nearly half a million undocumented workers in Arizona?

What's particularly distressing about Bill's position is that, like Arizona Sen. John McCain, who he has long supported, it represents an about-face from his previous advocacy of sensible immigration reform based not on enforcement but addressing the root cause of the large illegal population: lack of legal avenues for unskilled aliens to enter the U.S.Indeed they both have now moved to the right of Colorado Republican Rep. Tom Tancredo, who has long regarded chasing illegals out of the country as his God-given duty. But even he has expressed qualms about the potential for racial profiling under the Arizona law.

And then, of course, there is the King of Conservative Neo-Know-Nothings, Rush Limbaugh, who never misses an opportunity to inveigh against the creeping Europeanization under Obama. But he actively calls for imitating the Europeans on immigration now:

These are the enlightened souls that we are supposed to be like: The French, the Germans, the Swiss, even the Spanish. But the thing is they have no trouble whatsoever kicking out their illegal aliens. Aren't we constantly told that they are so much more enlightened than us in every way that we need to emulate them in all things, like providing universal health care and so forth? Yet we're not emulating them on immigration.

14 Kragar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:33:12am

re: #10 freetoken

As I mentioned yesterday in this post:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
my own Congressman called the Arizona law a "fantastic starting point".

So, what is next?

1. Deporting children born in the US (as desired by my Congressman.)

2. Outlawing signs/documents in any language than English.

3. ?
4. ?
5. ?

He's mine too, I actually voted for the schmuck. I'll be fixing that come November.

15 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:33:49am

re: #2 JasonA

Ah, I see it's been posted already. Talk about mind-boggling stupidity.

16 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:34:09am

I told ya last night they had more bills in the wing...

17 blueraven  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:34:20am

re: #6 Gus 802

Arizona has managed to make Texas look like a progressive state in less than a week.

Well, I am sure Governor Perry will take care of that real soon. We're number 1!!!!

18 abbyadams  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:35:16am

re: #10 freetoken

So...where exactly does he want to deport these children? They are U.S. Citizens, by law and definition.

19 Spider Mensch  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:35:50am

re: #4 Killgore Trout

Heh.

good, gooder, goodest.. ;^)

Abbott: did you go to school, stupid ?
Costello: Yep, but I came out the same way!

20 Bob Dillon  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:36:32am

re: #11 darthstar

Is that state fucked up right now or what?

No - the state is not. A few people in positions of authority are tho.

Be careful with absolute statements.

21 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:36:34am

re: #18 abbyadams

So...where exactly does he want to deport these children? They are U.S. Citizens, by law and definition.

He wants to deport them with their parents back to their parent's country of citizenship.

22 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:36:35am

So does this mean black history month is history in Arizona?

23 freetoken  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:36:41am

re: #18 abbyadams

The Tea Party crowd to which Hunter was speaking don't believe in the 14th Amendment. Or they think some liberal activist judge as changed it meaning, or something...

24 cliffster  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:36:56am

I think it's safe to say that ethnic studies programs have nothing to do with the violence along the border.

25 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:37:08am

re: #20 Bobibutu

No - the state is not. A few people in positions of authority are tho.

Be careful with absolute statements.

Sorry...I meant 'state' as in 'state government'...should've been more specific.

26 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:37:22am

re: #4 Killgore Trout

Heh.

Johanna J. Haver is a retired teacher with 32 years of classroom experience. First a teacher of German and Latin at a high school in Casper, WY, later she developed and supervised a remedial reading program for elementary students, many of them identified as Limited English Proficient (LEP), in Avondale, Arizona. She spent the last 18 years of her career in a Phoenix high school district where she taught German, Latin, reading, and, eventually, English as a Second Language (ESL). Since retirement, she has become an independent education writer and researcher. In 2001, she was commissioned by the Institute for Research in English Acquisition and Development Institute (READ Institute) in Washington, DC, to write extensive reviews of the English language acquisition programs in five model Arizona schools. These reviews were incorporated into the 2001 Arizona Department of Education Cost Study of English Language Acquisition Programs. From 2000-2001, she served as a member of Arizona Department of Education task forces advising the Arizona superintendent of instruction on the implementation of English language acquisition programs. Her first book, Structured English Immersion: A Step-by-Step Guide for K-6 Teachers and Administrators, was published by Corwin Press in 2002. Haver earned a B.A. in German from the University of Wyoming and an M.A. in German from the University of Arizona. She became certified as a reading specialist and ESL teacher through postgraduate study at Arizona State University.

27 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:37:22am

Actually I have no real problem with that second part.

Would you want to be taught English by someone with a thick German accent?

28 Mocking Jay  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:37:42am

Speaking of wtf laws, does anyone else think this is a bad idea?
Bill allowing guns in airports passes state Legislature

Read more: http://www.macon.com/2010/04/28/1109607/bill-allowing-guns-in-airports.html#ixzz0mbdwdpsC

ATLANTA — Gun reforms that would let people carry weapons into Georgia airports won final passage Tuesday night at the Georgia General Assembly.
29 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:38:13am

re: #27 Cato the Elder

Actually I have no real problem with that second part.

Would you want to be taught English by someone with a thick German accent?

my parents taught me just fine... ja?

30 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:38:27am

re: #24 cliffster

I think it's safe to say that ethnic studies programs have nothing to do with the violence along the border.

It really shows an ulterior motive. Inch by inch.

31 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:38:37am

re: #18 abbyadams

So...where exactly does he want to deport these children? They are U.S. Citizens, by law and definition.

woah - careful there! that's real logic you're using...volatile stuff/

32 abbyadams  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:39:55am

re: #23 freetoken

re: #21 rwdflynavy

Oh, I see. Cool. Can I pick an amendment that I don't want to follow any more?

I vote for the 26th. My children have better sense than a lot of the yahoos that push the "VOTE" button.

My God.

33 pharmmajor  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:40:45am

re: #28 JasonA

Speaking of wtf laws, does anyone else think this is a bad idea?
Bill allowing guns in airports passes state Legislature

Read more: http://www.macon.com/2010/04/28/1109607/bill-allow ing-guns-in-airports.html#ixzz0mbdwdpsC

As long as the airport staff and security carries guns as well, there shouldn't be much of a problem. Anyone dumb enough to start waving around a gun in an airport in this atmosphere is probably asking to get shot anyway.

34 Mocking Jay  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:40:45am

re: #27 Cato the Elder

Actually I have no real problem with that second part.

Would you want to be taught English by someone with a thick German accent?

What accents are acceptable then? Would a thick Bahstan accent be alright?

35 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:40:46am

As posted in the spin-offs earlier today, Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio is boasting that his latest "crime sweep" resulted in 89 arrests on its first night, 61 of them of them for alleged immigration violations.
Alleged illegal aliens, bail jumpers and ticket scofflaws were literally rounded up by a cordon of armed officers and bundled into police vans for a trip to jail.

Remind you of something?

36 Locker  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:41:04am

re: #27 Cato the Elder

Actually I have no real problem with that second part.

Would you want to be taught English by someone with a thick German accent?

No but a foxy English teacher with a musical Italian accept would be right in my wheelhouse.

37 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:41:10am

re: #27 Cato the Elder

Actually I have no real problem with that second part.

Would you want to be taught English by someone with a thick German accent?

Why not? Grammar is grammar. Literature is literature. Whether or not someone has an accent when explaining subject-verb-object sentence structure or discussing the heroic quest motif is irrelevant.

38 Locker  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:41:27am

re: #36 Locker

No but a foxy English teacher with a musical Italian accept would be right in my wheelhouse.

accent

39 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:41:38am

re: #35 Shiplord Kirel

Link didn't work.

40 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:42:01am

re: #34 JasonA

What accents are acceptable then? Would a thick Bahstan accent be alright?

/He has a point, I don't want to buy pizza from a guy named Raul...

41 Locker  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:42:10am

re: #27 Cato the Elder

Actually I have no real problem with that second part.

Would you want to be taught English by someone with a thick German accent?

Additionally I've heard accents from my Dad's neighbors in Alabama and they are WAY harder to understand than some of the Euro accents I've heard.

42 Bob Dillon  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:42:29am

re: #25 darthstar

Sorry...I meant 'state' as in 'state government'...should've been more specific.

Good. I was hoping we were not going down the road of "All Texans are rednecks" and other vague concepts.

I couldn't agree with you more and expand it to a significant number of government officials and their bureaucratic minions from local government all the way to the top.

43 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:42:34am

re: #27 Cato the Elder

Actually I have no real problem with that second part.

Would you want to be taught English by someone with a thick German accent?

i wouldn't hire an english teacher with a very thick accent. i guess i was presuming that their having been hired implied that they had a manageable accent. perhaps i was being too kind...

SFZ? any other teachers encounter really tough accents from English teachers?

44 freetoken  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:43:28am

re: #27 Cato the Elder

I've had much harder times understanding Irish speaking English than I have had with Germans speaking English!

45 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:43:31am

re: #28 JasonA

Speaking of wtf laws, does anyone else think this is a bad idea?
Bill allowing guns in airports passes state Legislature

Read more: http://www.macon.com/2010/04/28/1109607/bill-allow ing-guns-in-airports.html#ixzz0mbdwdpsC

Well you got to have guns what are you gonna do if you see a terrorists, just attack him with your bare hands?

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

Oh....

46 AK-47%  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:43:48am

A lot of companies like to hire telemarketers from Arizona because the local accent there is so neutral - as a result of it being a mixture of people from all over America - that it is unidentifiable, and therefore less likely to produce a negative reaction to people who have a prejudice against certain accents.

But what will be the objective standard for "accent free" English?

47 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:44:06am

re: #28 JasonA

Speaking of wtf laws, does anyone else think this is a bad idea?
Bill allowing guns in airports passes state Legislature

Read more: http://www.macon.com/2010/04/28/1109607/bill-allow ing-guns-in-airports.html#ixzz0mbdwdpsC

sure, but is it a huge deal? right now you can bring your gun to the curb...this bill says you can take it as far as the security checkpoint.

concern troll is unconcerned

48 Locker  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:44:12am

re: #45 jamesfirecat

Well you got to have guns what are you gonna do if you see a terrorists, just attack him with your bare hands?

[Link: www.flickr.com...]

Oh...

Paperclip launcher. The terrorist's only bane.

49 Bob Dillon  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:44:56am

re: #27 Cato the Elder

Actually I have no real problem with that second part.

Would you want to be taught English by someone with a thick German accent?

Employers of ESL teachers want native speakers of the language they will be teaching - those with accents need not apply.

50 jc717  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:45:57am

Leave AZ alone. They're just trying to preserve the purity of their precious bodily fluids.

51 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:45:58am

re: #39 Stanley Sea

Link didn't work.

Eek! I'm not sure where I got that one (to a non-existent LGF page) but try this one (local media).

52 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:46:33am

re: #50 jc717

Leave AZ alone. They're just trying to preserve the purity of their precious bodily fluids.

rain water and grain alcohol!

53 AK-47%  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:47:22am

And what would Arizona do with a schoolteacher who says "nucular"?

54 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:47:41am

re: #52 Aceofwhat?

rain water and grain alcohol!


Mandrake, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children's ice cream.

55 William of Orange  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:47:57am

Every American speaks English with an accent....

Here are some French with an English accent.

Now, where's my cup of tea, by jove. :)

56 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:48:01am

re: #53 ralphieboy

And what would Arizona do with a schoolteacher who says "nucular"?

Deport her to Alaska?

57 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:48:41am

re: #53 ralphieboy

And what would Arizona do with a schoolteacher who says "nucular"?

put them in charge

58 cliffster  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:49:23am

re: #55 William of Orange

Every American speaks English with an accent...

Here are some French with an English accent.

Now, where's my cup of tea, by jove. :)

wrong - every Englishman speaks American with a British accent

59 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:49:45am

re: #43 Aceofwhat?

i wouldn't hire an english teacher with a very thick accent. i guess i was presuming that their having been hired implied that they had a manageable accent. perhaps i was being too kind...

SFZ? any other teachers encounter really tough accents from English teachers?

I was an English teacher for seven years. I've also had English teachers with strong accents...when I was 15 and went to school in Fiji for a year, my English teacher was from India...she had a strong accent, and many of the students spoke Hindi and Fijian more than English, but she still managed to teach grammar, etc. just fine.

Her only problem was when we read Steinbeck's "The Pearl" and I tried to explain that the kid Coyote was pronounced KAI-OAT-EE and not KOI-OAT...she was a bit of a literalist on vowel pronunciation rules.

60 prairiefire  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:50:18am

re: #7 Shiplord Kirel

I would not be able to teach English then, since Arizona ears are notably sensitive to my Ozark drawl.

Upding for the Ozarks!

61 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:50:28am

re: #37 darthstar

Why not? Grammar is grammar. Literature is literature. Whether or not someone has an accent when explaining subject-verb-object sentence structure or discussing the heroic quest motif is irrelevant.

True. It would only matter in something like an elocution class. Otherwise, there are many people that have a firmer grasp on proper grammar and also speak with an accent.

They're not talking about Indian, French or German accents. We know exactly which accent they're referring to given the recent events and the current context. When this particular group speaks of accents they're referring to Mexican and other Spanish accents.

62 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:51:03am

re: #34 JasonA

What accents are acceptable then? Would a thick Bahstan accent be alright?

A thick Southern American accent, maybe.

Seriously, it doesn't say "remove teachers with accents" except from classes where students are learning English.

Would you pay money to Berlitz for a German teacher who spoke German with a British accent?

63 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:51:03am

re: #56 Shiplord Kirel

Deport her to Alaska?

Deport him to Georgia?

64 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:52:05am

re: #37 darthstar

Why not? Grammar is grammar. Literature is literature. Whether or not someone has an accent when explaining subject-verb-object sentence structure or discussing the heroic quest motif is irrelevant.

Not if you're actually learning basic English. What PC garbage you often do spew.

65 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:52:12am

re: #28 JasonA

Speaking of wtf laws, does anyone else think this is a bad idea?
Bill allowing guns in airports passes state Legislature

Read more: http://www.macon.com/2010/04/28/1109607/bill-allow ing-guns-in-airports.html#ixzz0mbdwdpsC

Awesome! Of course, Homeland Security might have something to say about that. I'm surprised they didn't pass this law when Bush was still president...oh, that's right...Bush wasn't a seekrit mooslim.

66 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:52:19am

re: #61 Gus 802

True. It would only matter in something like an elocution class. Otherwise, there are many people that have a firmer grasp on proper grammar and also speak with an accent.

i'm going to catch hell for playing devil's advocate here (heh), but it appears that the item is indeed related to elocution. see the part about kids who don't already speak native english.

so there's that.

67 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:52:21am

Absolutely amazing. Scary times, we're living in.

68 AK-47%  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:52:33am

re: #62 Cato the Elder

A thick Southern American accent, maybe.

Seriously, it doesn't say "remove teachers with accents" except from classes where students are learning English.

Would you pay money to Berlitz for a German teacher who spoke German with a British accent?


Then we would have to add elocution standards to those seeking an English teaching certificate. I would like to see that turkey fly.

69 Soap_Man  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:52:50am

My Spanish teacher in college (who worked for some big marketing firm and taught Spanish on the side) once told the class that he was offered a promotion, but management said he could only accept it if he managed to learn how to loss his very minor accent.

He refused. Not because he didn't feel he could train himself to lose the accent; he just found the whole demand to be insulting.

70 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:53:13am

re: #44 freetoken

I've had much harder times understanding Irish speaking English than I have had with Germans speaking English!

The Irish speak English?

71 elizajane  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:53:27am

On the one hand, I know this is silly. Kids pick up their accent, and a lot of their vocabulary and syntax, from their peers. This is why brookly red probably doesn't speak with the accent of his parents, but that of his school classmates.

On the other hand, I don't want to rush to condemn, because (as an educated middle-class white gal), I hired a native-English-speaking, college-educated nanny for the 6-year-old children I adopted from a foreign country so that they would hear correct speech from her. A Mexican nanny would have been cheaper but I genuinely thought it would help them to hear a lot of good English, especially because one had learning disabilities.

I have negative feelings about the state legislating what was my private (and possibly unnecessary) educational decision. And then I think, so what was good for my becoming-middle-class poor kids isn't good for public school poor kids? In other words, basically I think that such a rule is a horrible idea and then I feel middle-class guilt.

72 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:53:59am

re: #62 Cato the Elder

A thick Southern American accent, maybe.

Seriously, it doesn't say "remove teachers with accents" except from classes where students are learning English as a non-native English student.

Would you pay money to Berlitz for a German teacher who spoke German with a British accent?

I'm a lot more thrown off by the ethnic-studies ban. Sure, i think they're a lot less worthwhile than a science or business degree, but isn't that what the free market is for??

73 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:54:26am

re: #70 Cato the Elder

The Irish speak English?

If you ever want a linguistic adventure go drinking with a Scottsman, because you couldn't bloody well understand him before....

Robbin Williams....

74 AK-47%  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:54:36am

re: #70 Cato the Elder

The Irish speak English?

I went to see the Irish films "The Committments§ and "The Snapper" in Germany - with the original soundtrack and German subtitles. I found myself having to read the subtitles to figure out what they were saying

75 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:54:44am

re: #66 Aceofwhat?

i'm going to catch hell for playing devil's advocate here (heh), but it appears that the item is indeed related to elocution. see the part about kids who don't already speak native english.

so there's that.

Well, good luck to Arizona in finding bilingual teachers that speak without an accent. A good number of them are native speakers of Spanish. Otherwise, they're now going to limit themselves to non-accented English speakers. ESL requires that they're fluent in two or more languages for the most part.

76 freetoken  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:54:45am

re: #70 Cato the Elder

The Irish speak English?

Yeah... and some say the Scots do too, but as for the Welch - they're hopelessly lost in some medieval tongue.

77 Mocking Jay  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:54:47am

re: #62 Cato the Elder

A thick Southern American accent, maybe.

Seriously, it doesn't say "remove teachers with accents" except from classes where students are learning English.

Would you pay money to Berlitz for a German teacher who spoke German with a British accent?

Our public schools aren't exactly overflowing with options. Is it unreasonably to think that the most efficient Spanish-English teachers are going to have accents?

78 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:55:55am

re: #59 darthstar

I was an English teacher for seven years. I've also had English teachers with strong accents...when I was 15 and went to school in Fiji for a year, my English teacher was from India...she had a strong accent, and many of the students spoke Hindi and Fijian more than English, but she still managed to teach grammar, etc. just fine.

Her only problem was when we read Steinbeck's "The Pearl" and I tried to explain that the kid Coyote was pronounced KAI-OAT-EE and not KOI-OAT...she was a bit of a literalist on vowel pronunciation rules.

there's a reason i and my siblings attended French school taught by native Belgians when we lived there. sure, i picked up a bit of a Brussels accent...but it beat the hell out of learning bad elocution from an expatriate.

i imagine the devil is in the (mis)application of the law.

79 freetoken  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:55:56am

oops...

80 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:55:58am

How many classrooms in Arizona have NO students still acquiring English? In California, it's not a lot.

81 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:56:15am

re: #41 Locker

Additionally I've heard accents from my Dad's neighbors in Alabama and they are WAY harder to understand than some of the Euro accents I've heard.

My grand-daughter's speech therapist needs a speech therapist.

82 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:56:20am

Arizona does seem to be making a statement...

83 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:56:38am

re: #59 darthstar

Coyote was pronounced KAI-OAT-EE and not KOI-OAT

ah, thank you - you have improved my language processing software by reminding me that i needed to include that exception!

84 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:56:45am

re: #71 elizajane

updinged for blunt honesty. well done-

85 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:56:51am

re: #77 JasonA

Our public schools aren't exactly overflowing with options. Is it unreasonably to think that the most efficient Spanish-English teachers are going to have accents?

It would be expected. Like I said, Arizona is plainly stating that it does not want any foreign instructors. From now on, only non-accented bilingual ESL teachers need apply.

86 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:57:07am

re: #10 freetoken

As I mentioned yesterday in this post:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
my own Congressman called the Arizona law a "fantastic starting point".

So, what is next?

1. Deporting children born in the US (as desired by my Congressman.)

2. Outlawing signs/documents in any language than English.

3. ?
4. ?
5. ?

Ban sombreros!

87 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:57:30am

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

Ban sombreros!

And donkeys!!

88 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:57:55am

"Teachers should speak good grammar because kids pick up what they hear," Johanna Haver, an adviser to Arizona educators, told the Journal. "Where you draw the line is debatable."

Accented English is different from ungrammatical English.

89 Mocking Jay  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:57:56am

re: #82 brookly red

Arizona does seem to be making a statement...

That's an... understatement.

90 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:58:00am

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

Ban sombreros!

well...at least ban the ones with little mexican flags on them;)

91 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:58:08am

re: #75 Gus 802

Well, good luck to Arizona in finding bilingual teachers that speak without an accent. A good number of them are native speakers of Spanish. Otherwise, they're now going to limit themselves to non-accented English speakers. ESL requires that they're fluent in two or more languages for the most part.

I am fluent in several languages, yet I do not translate into German, for example. You only teach or translate in your mother tongue, unless you're some kind of prodigy.

92 Soap_Man  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:58:13am

re: #77 JasonA

Our public schools aren't exactly overflowing with options. Is it unreasonably to think that the most efficient Spanish-English teachers are going to have accents?

Well, I think the ideal situation would be that the teacher would be a native speaker of the language they are teaching. Therefore, they wouldn't have an accent. (Teachers teaching English to Spanish-speaking students should be native English speakers, teachers teaching French to English-speaking students should be native French speakers.)

But, again, this is the ideal situation IMO. This law seems like it will be cumbersome for many public school districts. They don't have the money to always have the "ideal situation."

93 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:58:15am

re: #71 elizajane

yo dat's wack

94 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:58:48am

re: #88 SanFranciscoZionist

"Teachers should speak good grammar because kids pick up what they hear," Johanna Haver, an adviser to Arizona educators, told the Journal. "Where you draw the line is debatable."

Accented English is different from ungrammatical English.

i'm with Elizajane. I'd choose a different school if possible, but i don't feel good about legislating this. Ripe for abuse, much??

95 Kragar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:58:57am

LOL, someone on our management call finally noticed a security problem my team brought up 4 years ago, but were told to ignore because it increased revenue. Oh boy, fun times ahead.

96 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 10:59:52am

Well, all I can say is I'm glad Iceweasel learned real English before she met Jimmah!

97 Mocking Jay  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:00:24am

re: #95 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

LOL, someone on our management call finally noticed a security problem my team brought up 4 years ago, but were told to ignore because it increased revenue. Oh boy, fun times ahead.

Well your team obviously didn't do a good job of making the threat clear. :P
/

98 prairiefire  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:00:35am

re: #88 SanFranciscoZionist

"Teachers should speak good grammar because kids pick up what they hear," Johanna Haver, an adviser to Arizona educators, told the Journal. "Where you draw the line is debatable."

Accented English is different from ungrammatical English.

Amen.

99 freetoken  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:00:54am

"We as Americans have the right to defend this country's laws. There's nothing racist about protecting the country"

Sue Schwartz says she's been called a racist so many times she doesn't mind the label anymore. If wanting immigrants to enter the country legally, like her great-grandparents from Mexico, and obey the laws of the land makes her racist, then so be it, she says firmly.

"I'm getting to the point I wear it with pride," says Schwartz, a lifelong Arizonan who has warily watched the growth of the illegal immigrant population in the state over the course of her life.

CNN - fair and balanced?

100 elizajane  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:01:40am

Having gone to Fox News and read the comments on Arizona's ban on ethnic studies, I retract any even slight hesitation I had about the teachers with accents issue. This entire state is on a backward slide caused by absolutely insane paranoia.
Were we aware that the link made in this new law between "teaching sedition" and "teaching ethnic studies" is the notion that if Latinos become too ethnically conscious, they will want to form a break-away Latino nation in the Southwest, and/or rejoin Mexico? Go to Fox to read all about the Re-conquista. I'm waiting for somebody to find a useful link that isn't just to some ranting commentor at Fox.

101 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:02:28am

re: #77 JasonA

Are they also going to outlaw anyone teaching Spanish who has an American accent in teaching Spanish?

This is nonsense. First of all, we do not have an excess of people who can speak two languages perfectly. Almost everyone who speaks another language has some form of accent in speaking that language. Second of all, I've never seen a study that says that people who learn English from someone with an accent in this country develop that accent; it doesn't make sense, since they're surrounded by 'American' English all the time, anyway.

102 Kragar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:03:02am

re: #97 JasonA

Well your team obviously didn't do a good job of making the threat clear. :P
/

Well, that and all the managers who made the original decision and signed the contract making it policy are long gone. The same question keeps coming up "Why did we agree to let them do this?" and the same answer comes up "They paid us to."

103 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:03:05am

re: #99 freetoken

"We as Americans have the right to defend this country's laws. There's nothing racist about protecting the country"

CNN - fair and balanced?

"But Schwartz and some other Americans with Hispanic backgrounds who spoke with CNN say the problem with illegals isn't just the jobs they take. It's how they're overrunning towns like Phoenix, turning them into "mini-Mexicos" with their trash-filled streets and loud music, according to Schwartz. "


YOU KIDS TURN THAT MUSIC DOWN AND GET OFF MY LAWN!

104 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:03:22am

Who decides the accent? Do these people even care about the Constitution? That's a rhetorical question.

105 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:03:28am

re: #37 darthstar

Why not? Grammar is grammar. Literature is literature. Whether or not someone has an accent when explaining subject-verb-object sentence structure or discussing the heroic quest motif is irrelevant.

Also, I assume that many of the teachers in question are bilingual Spanish/English speakers teaching same. It's not like the kids are gonna come out speaking English with Laotian accents.

I've worked with some fabulous teachers who didn't speak with an American-born accent. Phasing them out makes no real sense.

106 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:03:32am

re: #101 Obdicut

Are they also going to outlaw anyone teaching Spanish who has an American accent in teaching Spanish?

more likely out law teaching Spanish...

107 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:03:36am

re: #95 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

LOL, someone on our management call finally noticed a security problem my team brought up 4 years ago, but were told to ignore because it increased revenue. Oh boy, fun times ahead.

Cool...you'll be buying our software soon.

108 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:04:11am

"Teachers should speak good grammar because kids pick up what they hear," Johanna Haver, an adviser to Arizona educators, told the Journal. "Where you draw the line is debatable."

ahem

"teachers should speak grammatically since kids pick up what they hear. however, where you draw the line is a matter for debate"

i'm attempting to imagine how a person could 'speak grammar'

109 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:04:25am

re: #92 Soap_Man

Well, I think the ideal situation would be that the teacher would be a native speaker of the language they are teaching. Therefore, they wouldn't have an accent. (Teachers teaching English to Spanish-speaking students should be native English speakers, teachers teaching French to English-speaking students should be native French speakers.)

But, again, this is the ideal situation IMO. This law seems like it will be cumbersome for many public school districts. They don't have the money to always have the "ideal situation."

I agree that finding enough native French speakers to teach French to English-speaking kids in AZ might be hard. But are you seriously going to maintain that there's not enough native English speakers fluent in Spanish to teach English to Spanish-speaking kids?

Cut me a break.

110 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:04:41am

re: #96 Cato the Elder

Well, all I can say is I'm glad Iceweasel learned real English before she met Jimmah!

yeah, but she's already started to spell things incorrectly/

111 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:05:03am

re: #43 Aceofwhat?

i wouldn't hire an english teacher with a very thick accent. i guess i was presuming that their having been hired implied that they had a manageable accent. perhaps i was being too kind...

SFZ? any other teachers encounter really tough accents from English teachers?

No. The Spanish dept. at my current school are all Peruvians, and they have fairly heavy accents in English, but they teach Spanish, so, who cares? As I said, I've worked with people who speak accented English, but they're very fluent.

112 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:05:03am

re: #98 prairiefire

Amen.

I believe you meant to say "Amayn".

113 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:05:03am

re: #108 engineer dog

You beat me to it.

114 Kragar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:05:34am

re: #107 darthstar

Cool...you'll be buying our software soon.

At this point, the only option is to let it ride and hope for the best or shut down several thousand machines and scrap 4 years of work and start over. Yeah, its a shit sandwich.

115 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:05:57am

re: #110 Aceofwhat?

yeah, but she's already started to spell things incorrectly/

So Jimmah kilt her old way of spelling?

116 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:06:02am

re: #49 Bobibutu

Employers of ESL teachers want native speakers of the language they will be teaching - those with accents need not apply.

Not always true in the public schools, though.

117 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:06:38am

re: #105 SanFranciscoZionist

Also, I assume that many of the teachers in question are bilingual Spanish/English speakers teaching same. It's not like the kids are gonna come out speaking English with Laotian accents.

I've worked with some fabulous teachers who didn't speak with an American-born accent. Phasing them out makes no real sense.

Unless they're teaching basic English to non-English speakers. Again, if I were paying to learn Laotian, I would demand my money back if I found out the teacher spoke it with a Brooklyn accent.

118 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:06:50am

re: #115 Mad Al-Jaffee

So Jimmah kilt her old way of spelling?

Pipe down.

119 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:07:38am

re: #115 Mad Al-Jaffee

So Jimmah kilt her old way of spelling?

she's already in the bag

120 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:08:01am

re: #108 engineer dog

"Teachers should speak good grammar because kids pick up what they hear," Johanna Haver, an adviser to Arizona educators, told the Journal. "Where you draw the line is debatable."

ahem

"teachers should speak grammatically since kids pick up what they hear. however, where you draw the line is a matter for debate"

i'm attempting to imagine how a person could 'speak grammar'

You left out the qualifier "good". Disingenuous of you.

I can easily picture a teacher "speaking bad grammar". I've met lots of them.

121 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:08:12am

re: #109 Cato the Elder

I agree that finding enough native French speakers to teach French to English-speaking kids in AZ might be hard. But are you seriously going to maintain that there's not enough native English speakers fluent in Spanish to teach English to Spanish-speaking kids?

Cut me a break.

Why does it matter as long as they teach correct sentence structure? You get your accent from family, for the most part. I think there might be something else they are worried about here.

122 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:09:03am

re: #62 Cato the Elder

A thick Southern American accent, maybe.

Seriously, it doesn't say "remove teachers with accents" except from classes where students are learning English.

Would you pay money to Berlitz for a German teacher who spoke German with a British accent?

Cato, I don't think you're getting it. Or I'm not. When they say 'still learning English', I don't imagine an ELD classroom, I envision a mainstreamed class where the kids are still classified as English learners. That takes years to phase out of, and the phrasing they're using, IIUC, probably includes damn near every public school classroom in AZ.

123 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:09:05am

re: #110 Aceofwhat?

yeah, but she's already started to spell things incorrectly/

She probably does that with the Word spellchecker. I just finished a translation from the German that was specifically requested with UK spelling and terms like "boot" instead of "trunk".

124 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:09:28am

re: #117 Cato the Elder

Unless they're teaching basic English to non-English speakers. Again, if I were paying to learn Laotian, I would demand my money back if I found out the teacher spoke it with a Brooklyn accent.

We have a local store owned by Laotians, most of the staff is from Mexico... the Laotians can speak Spanish much better than I but it is still fun to watch...

125 webevintage  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:09:34am

What kind of accent are these asshole talking about?
Only a Latino flavored one or do they also mean a good thick Cajun accent or maybe some one from Brooklyn?
Maybe they need people from England to teach English...

God what a bunch of maroons.

126 Digital Display  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:11:09am

re: #104 tnguitarist

Who decides the accent? Do these people even care about the Constitution? That's a rhetorical question.

Don't you just hate rhetorical questions?
/

127 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:11:16am

re: #85 Gus 802

It would be expected. Like I said, Arizona is plainly stating that it does not want any foreign instructors. From now on, only non-accented bilingual ESL teachers need apply.

As I said, I don't think this is just ESL, unless they've clarified it is. Having English language learners in the class does NOT mean it's an ESL class.

128 lawhawk  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:11:23am

re: #125 webevintage

My mom was an English teacher and drummed me out of my Brooklynese accent. It can creep in from time to time, but dis isn't de way I talk now.

129 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:11:25am

re: #122 SanFranciscoZionist

Cato, I don't think you're getting it. Or I'm not. When they say 'still learning English', I don't imagine an ELD classroom, I envision a mainstreamed class where the kids are still classified as English learners. That takes years to phase out of, and the phrasing they're using, IIUC, probably includes damn near every public school classroom in AZ.

See my #117, using your example of Laotian.

130 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:11:29am

re: #120 Cato the Elder

You left out the qualifier "good". Disingenuous of you.

I can easily picture a teacher "speaking bad grammar". I've met lots of them.

"speaking bad grammar" => "speaking ungrammatically"

131 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:11:31am

re: #121 tnguitarist

Why does it matter as long as they teach correct sentence structure? You get your accent from family, for the most part. I think there might be something else they are worried about here.

/I can't remember my mother ever saying "yo"

132 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:11:40am

re: #119 Aceofwhat?

she's already in the bag

Sgiandubh beat this teacher?

Image: MasterYodaisaScot006.jpg

133 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:12:06am

re: #91 Cato the Elder

I am fluent in several languages, yet I do not translate into German, for example. You only teach or translate in your mother tongue, unless you're some kind of prodigy.

Uh...you ain't never worked ELD, have ya?

134 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:12:15am

re: #130 engineer dog

"speaking bad grammar" => "speaking ungrammatically"

I understand that. You are willfully misunderstanding me.

135 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:13:00am

re: #133 SanFranciscoZionist

Uh...you ain't never worked ELD, have ya?

What is "ELD"?

I hate acronyms.

136 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:13:04am

re: #134 Cato the Elder

I understand that. You are willfully misunderstanding me.

not willfully. please explain!

137 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:13:09am

re: #134 Cato the Elder

I understand that. You are willfully misunderstanding me.

comes with the turf...

138 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:13:55am

re: #100 elizajane

Having gone to Fox News and read the comments on Arizona's ban on ethnic studies, I retract any even slight hesitation I had about the teachers with accents issue. This entire state is on a backward slide caused by absolutely insane paranoia.
Were we aware that the link made in this new law between "teaching sedition" and "teaching ethnic studies" is the notion that if Latinos become too ethnically conscious, they will want to form a break-away Latino nation in the Southwest, and/or rejoin Mexico? Go to Fox to read all about the Re-conquista. I'm waiting for somebody to find a useful link that isn't just to some ranting commentor at Fox.

Please note, anyone who's seen too much of this crap on Malkin et al: that is not what 'Reconquista' means, or it's not what Reconquista meant before they made this crap up.

139 dugmartsch  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:14:14am

re: #64 Cato the Elder

Not if you're actually learning basic English. What PC garbage you often do spew.

So a teacher with a heavy southern drawl is naturally unsuitable. Or a thick Boston accent. Seriously dude you're way off base here start walkin' it back.

140 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:14:38am

I am all for securing the borders from unlawful entry, but that's where I stop.

The rest that I am reading is so completely full of fail I really don't know how to describe it correctly.

141 lawhawk  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:14:54am

For all the people complaining about speaking "proper" English, I think it's actually far more troubling that people don't know how to write properly. With texting and twitter, grammar and spelling is falling by the wayside, and that affects education at all levels.

Heck, at one job I worked on, we got resumes from supposed college and law school grads but their writing samples were absolutely dreadful. They contained all kinds of errors in grammar and spelling. It's not going to get any better.

142 webevintage  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:15:53am

re: #62 Cato the Elder


Seriously, it doesn't say "remove teachers with accents" except from classes where students are learning English.

Would you pay money to Berlitz for a German teacher who spoke German with a British accent?

But we use teachers everyday that speak english as their 1st language to teach our students French and German and Spanish and all those teachers speak with thick American accents.

In the end, this is about making it harder for ESL students to learn the english language. They want non latinos to teach ESL classes to children.

143 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:16:17am

re: #139 dugmartsch

So a teacher with a heavy southern drawl is naturally unsuitable. Or a thick Boston accent. Seriously dude you're way off base here start walkin' it back.

I will not.

I am not off-base.

A kid learning English in Brooklyn from a teacher with a Brooklyn accent is different from one being taught English by a teacher with a thick German accent.

Take yourself for a walk.

144 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:16:17am

re: #141 lawhawk

For all the people complaining about speaking "proper" English, I think it's actually far more troubling that people don't know how to write properly. With texting and twitter, grammar and spelling is falling by the wayside, and that affects education at all levels.

Heck, at one job I worked on, we got resumes from supposed college and law school grads but their writing samples were absolutely dreadful. They contained all kinds of errors in grammar and spelling. It's not going to get any better.

Don't forget handwriting! I write like I am 2.5 years old...

145 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:16:48am

re: #142 webevintage

But we use teachers everyday that speak english as their 1st language to teach our students French and German and Spanish and all those teachers speak with thick American accents.

In the end, this is about making it harder for ESL students to learn the english language. They want non latinos to teach ESL classes to children.

And? Your point?

146 dugmartsch  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:17:10am

Oh and my french teacher in college had an irish accent.

147 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:17:53am

re: #129 Cato the Elder

But Cato, you're ignoring the immersion; these kids are going to hear English all around with, with 'good' accents. They're not learning this in Mexico City with little access to English, but in an immersive environment. There is no reason to suspect that they'll learn the teacher's accent.

148 jvic  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:18:27am

Tossing in my two cents while passing by:

Well, since the taxpayers pay for public schools, it is reasonable that they, via their representatives, have a say about what is taught.

It is also reasonable that the curriculum facilitate children's growth into a constructive role in society.

In an open society, it is not reasonable that the curriculum deliberately cripple children's future mobility.

In an open society, it is not reasonable that immigrants' children be denied knowledge of the positive things their cultural heritage brings to their new country. NB: I am no friend of goo-goo multiculturalism and everybody-gets-a-prize-for-trying.

149 freetoken  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:18:31am

The libertarian fundamentalists are really coming out strong now. You know whose at fault in this big oil spill? Well, the EPA of course!

EPA Slips On Oil Spills

Summary: It's the EPA's fault because the EPA (according to Miller) regulated the bioengineering of oil eating bacteria.

150 webevintage  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:18:37am

re: #145 Cato the Elder

And? Your point?

My point is the people in the education department in AZ are assholes.

151 elizajane  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:19:01am

re: #138 SanFranciscoZionist

Please note, anyone who's seen too much of this crap on Malkin et al: that is not what 'Reconquista' means, or it's not what Reconquista meant before they made this crap up.

But what's frightening is, apparently that is what the state legislature means. Because there is no other reason to have a law that in one sentence bans the teaching of sedition, and in the next bans ethnic studies.

I thought that the 9/11 conspiracies and the Birthers were as nutty as you could get, but clearly there are whole new levels of crazy that I'm only beginning to hear about.

152 lawhawk  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:20:09am

By the way, the AZ legislation is being subject to not only lawsuits and possible referendums that might keep it from being enacted until 2012 at the earliest, but further amendments resulting from the Governor's signing statement have adjusted some of the wording of the bill.

The current law requires local and state law enforcement to question people about their immigration status if there's reason to suspect they're in the country illegally, and makes it a state crime to be in the United States illegally.

One change to the bill strengthens restrictions against using race or ethnicity as the basis for questioning and inserts those same restrictions in other parts of the law.

Changes to the bill language will actually remove the word "solely" from the sentence, "The attorney general or county attorney shall not investigate complaints that are based solely on race, color or national origin."

Another change replaces the phrase "lawful contact" with "lawful stop, detention or arrest" to apparently clarify that officers don't need to question a victim or witness about their legal status.

A third change specifies that police contact over violations for local civil ordinances can trigger questioning on immigration status.

The law's sponsor, Republican Sen. Russell Pearce, characterized the race and ethnicity changes as clarifications "just to take away the silly arguments and the games, the dishonesty that's been played."

Rep. Kyrsten Sinema, D-Phoenix, said allowing immigration-status contacts for civil violations such as weed-infested yards or too many occupants in a residence could spur complaints of racial profiling.

This got discussed in the dead thread but bears repeating. The wording might not completely solve the issues, because it depends on how you parse "lawful stop, detention or arrest" and how "lawful stop" is defined in Arizona statutes and caselaw. I still think that it opens the door to mischief, but it is somewhat better than the prior version that allowed any law enforcement interaction to become grounds to check ID - setting up the likelihood of profiling.

153 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:20:15am

re: #149 freetoken

The libertarian fundamentalists are really coming out strong now. You know whose at fault in this big oil spill? Well, the EPA of course!

EPA Slips On Oil Spills

Summary: It's the EPA's fault because the EPA (according to Miller) regulated the bioengineering of oil eating bacteria.

it's not the EPA's fault. but their position on bioengineering isn't anything to be proud of.

this is the wrong way to make that point, though, imho...

154 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:20:34am

re: #149 freetoken

The libertarian fundamentalists are really coming out strong now. You know whose at fault in this big oil spill? Well, the EPA of course!

EPA Slips On Oil Spills

Summary: It's the EPA's fault because the EPA (according to Miller) regulated the bioengineering of oil eating bacteria.

well it would be nice if if we had some now...

155 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:20:36am

Perry criticizes Ariz. law, won't adopt for Texas

Texas Gov. Rick Perry (R) is not a fan of the new Arizona immigration law and said he would not consider adopting it for Texas.

In a statement released by his office, Perry said the Arizona provision would distract law enforcement officers from their basic priorities.

"[S]ome aspects of the law turn law enforcement officers into immigration officials by requiring them to determine immigration status during any lawful contact with a suspected alien, taking them away from their existing law enforcement duties, which are critical to keeping citizens safe," Perry said.

"Our focus must continue to be on the criminal elements involved with conducting criminal acts against Texans and their property. I will continue to work with the legislative leadership to develop strategies that are appropriate for Texas.:

While Perry said he "fully recognize[s] and support a state’s right and obligation to protect its citizens" the Arizona law "would not be the right direction for Texas."

156 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:20:37am

re: #147 Obdicut

But Cato, you're ignoring the immersion; these kids are going to hear English all around with, with 'good' accents. They're not learning this in Mexico City with little access to English, but in an immersive environment. There is no reason to suspect that they'll learn the teacher's accent.

Cato's afraid he'll run into hispanic kids who sound like Sergeant Shultz from Hogan's Heroes.

It's not German or Irish or English or French accents the Arizonans pushing this through are worried about. It's those fucking brown people! Why can't they just mow the lawn, wash the dishes, and stay invisible!

157 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:21:06am

Also, by "still learning English" do they mean ESL students or could the be interpreted to cover all young children that are still learning the language?

158 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:21:24am

re: #156 darthstar

Sarc implied on that last sentence...though most people here are intelligent enough to pick that up.

159 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:21:38am

re: #43 Aceofwhat?

i wouldn't hire an english teacher with a very thick accent. i guess i was presuming that their having been hired implied that they had a manageable accent. perhaps i was being too kind...

SFZ? any other teachers encounter really tough accents from English teachers?

Accents aren't really an obstacle to learning a language, it's lack of variation in teachers is that presents the real obstacle. Any good intensive foreign language program will rotate teachers frequently to force students to learn past the different speakers cadences, speech patterns, accents and individual linguistic nuances. Forcing a curriculum of flat, accentless instruction is only going to help students understand flat, accentless conversations instead of helping them adopt the language on a much more adaptive and intuitive level.

160 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:21:44am

re: #146 dugmartsch

Oh and my french teacher in college had an irish accent.

seriously?

French was one of my majors and we didn't have one professor who couldn't speak it flawlessly.

161 dugmartsch  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:22:15am

re: #143 Cato the Elder

I will not.

I am not off-base.

A kid learning English in Brooklyn from a teacher with a Brooklyn accent is different from one being taught English by a teacher with a thick German accent.

Take yourself for a walk.

Just trying to be helpful before you dig yourself a big hole of intolerance that you're trying to climb out of.

162 Mocking Jay  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:22:17am

re: #158 darthstar

Sarc implied on that last sentence...though most people here are intelligent enough to pick that up.

It was still a bit much though, Darth.

163 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:22:27am

re: #100 elizajane

Having gone to Fox News and read the comments on Arizona's ban on ethnic studies, I retract any even slight hesitation I had about the teachers with accents issue. This entire state is on a backward slide caused by absolutely insane paranoia.
Were we aware that the link made in this new law between "teaching sedition" and "teaching ethnic studies" is the notion that if Latinos become too ethnically conscious, they will want to form a break-away Latino nation in the Southwest, and/or rejoin Mexico? Go to Fox to read all about the Re-conquista. I'm waiting for somebody to find a useful link that isn't just to some ranting commentor at Fox.

People have been known to get a little feisty after reading too many Gary Soto stories...

164 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:22:41am

re: #159 goddamnedfrank

And again, since it's an immersive environment, they're learning from far more than the teachers. They're learning from conversations around them, from television, radio, their classmates, etc.

165 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:23:05am

re: #141 lawhawk

For all the people complaining about speaking "proper" English, I think it's actually far more troubling that people don't know how to write properly. With texting and twitter, grammar and spelling is falling by the wayside, and that affects education at all levels.

Heck, at one job I worked on, we got resumes from supposed college and law school grads but their writing samples were absolutely dreadful. They contained all kinds of errors in grammar and spelling. It's not going to get any better.

Grammar and spelling fell by the wayside long before texting and Twitter.

Back when I was editor-in-chief at a publishing company, a colleague taking part-time classes toward a degree asked me to proof a paper she had written.

It was probably unethical of me even to do it, but I did. When she got my corrections, she came back to me near tears. "Am I really that bad of a writer?" Well, actually, yes. I didn't have to say it in so many words; the red marks spoke for themselves. Hell, she asked an editor to edit her work.

Later I asked her immediate superior about it, who told me that even in grad school these days, no professor or TA worries about spelling, grammar, syntax or general solecisms. Your grade depends merely on whether you sorta-kinda get the general idea across. In other words, as long as you spew back whatever PC garbage you were indoctrinated with, it's all good.

166 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:23:19am

re: #159 goddamnedfrank

Accents aren't really an obstacle to learning a language, it's lack of variation in teachers is that presents the real obstacle. Any good intensive foreign language program will rotate teachers frequently to force students to learn past the different speakers cadences, speech patterns, accents and individual linguistic nuances. Forcing a curriculum of flat, accentless instruction is only going to help students understand flat, accentless conversations instead of helping them adopt the language on a much more adaptive and intuitive level.

that didn't make any sense. what is a flat, accentless instruction?

167 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:23:55am

re: #166 Aceofwhat?

that didn't make any sense. what is a flat, accentless instruction?

we all learn to speak like Al Gore...

168 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:24:19am

re: #161 dugmartsch

Just trying to be helpful before you dig yourself a big hole of intolerance that you're trying to climb out of.

don't project. disagree with Cato if you want, but i can promise you that intolerance is fully lacking in his position on this item.

assumptions like the one you just made only detract from the tenor of a debate.

169 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:24:23am

re: #147 Obdicut

But Cato, you're ignoring the immersion; these kids are going to hear English all around with, with 'good' accents. They're not learning this in Mexico City with little access to English, but in an immersive environment. There is no reason to suspect that they'll learn the teacher's accent.

Oh, of course not. Teachers are not role models, right?

170 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:24:38am

re: #162 JasonA

It was still a bit much though, Darth.

Well, it's not like the Hispanic community is pushing this English purification crap through the legislature and school boards.

171 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:24:56am

re: #165 Cato the Elder

Grammar and spelling fell by the wayside long before texting and Twitter.

Back when I was editor-in-chief at a publishing company, a colleague taking part-time classes toward a degree asked me to proof a paper she had written.

It was probably unethical of me even to do it, but I did. When she got my corrections, she came back to me near tears. "Am I really that bad of a writer?" Well, actually, yes. I didn't have to say it in so many words; the red marks spoke for themselves. Hell, she asked an editor to edit her work.

Later I asked her immediate superior about it, who told me that even in grad school these days, no professor or TA worries about spelling, grammar, syntax or general solecisms. Your grade depends merely on whether you sorta-kinda get the general idea across. In other words, as long as you spew back whatever PC garbage you were indoctrinated with, it's all good.

So I guess you aren't too much a fan of Lolcats?

"I Kan haz Cheezburgr!"
/

172 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:25:07am

re: #150 webevintage

My point is the people in the education department in AZ are assholes.

That may well be so, but this particular effort seems reasonable to me.

173 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:25:12am

re: #117 Cato the Elder

Unless they're teaching basic English to non-English speakers. Again, if I were paying to learn Laotian, I would demand my money back if I found out the teacher spoke it with a Brooklyn accent.

If that is the sole purpose of this 'suggestion', it makes sense. If they're saying what they seem to be saying, it's dumb.

174 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:25:55am

re: #163 SanFranciscoZionist

People have been known to get a little feisty after reading too many Gary Soto stories...

I'm trying to verify for you, but NPR today said one hedge fund manager's 2009 compensation=680,000 teachers.

175 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:26:12am

re: #164 Obdicut

And again, since it's an immersive environment, they're learning from far more than the teachers. They're learning from conversations around them, from television, radio, their classmates, etc.

someone needs to be the authority, though. if they got everything from the environment, why teach the language?

i realize that's a hyperbolic question, but i'm too lazy to be more precise...sorry/

176 Locker  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:26:16am

re: #143 Cato the Elder

I will not.

I am not off-base.

A kid learning English in Brooklyn from a teacher with a Brooklyn accent is different from one being taught English by a teacher with a thick German accent.

Take yourself for a walk.

How is it different?

177 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:26:34am

re: #129 Cato the Elder

See my #117, using your example of Laotian.

Yeah, I see it. Don't think that's what they're saying. Would need more info.

178 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:26:45am

re: #156 darthstar

Cato's afraid he'll run into hispanic kids who sound like Sergeant Shultz from Hogan's Heroes.

It's not German or Irish or English or French accents the Arizonans pushing this through are worried about. It's those fucking brown people! Why can't they just mow the lawn, wash the dishes, and stay invisible!

You are such a tool.

179 dugmartsch  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:26:47am

re: #160 Aceofwhat?

seriously?

French was one of my majors and we didn't have one professor who couldn't speak it flawlessly.

Her English had the accent. Though in grade school it was remarked that our class spoke french with a german accent though our teacher was native to the country.

180 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:26:49am

re: #160 Aceofwhat?

seriously?

French was one of my majors and we didn't have one professor who couldn't speak it flawlessly.

I've had french teachers who learned the language in Viet-Nam, Reunion Island, Montreal, Paris and Baton Rouge. Every one of them was fluent but ever one of them spoke differently. The Parisian presented by far the most difficulty, those fuckers don't give you shit to work with.

181 webevintage  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:26:57am

re: #169 Cato the Elder

Oh, of course not. Teachers are not role models, right?

But Cato that is like saying a kid in California who is learning English from a teacher with a thick Southern accent will end up speaking like they have lived all their life in Georgia.

182 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:26:59am

re: #165 Cato the Elder

My mother has taught freshman English at Rhode Island College for more than twenty years. I used to read the papers her students had submitted; most of her students couldn't regularly construct grammatical sentences. I doubt things have improved. She does a very good job at whipping them into shape, but many of them still don't see the need to write English well; they say, "Well, everyone knows what I mean." I consider that the lamest defense of bad writing.

The students she has who write the best are the immigrant children, since they have had to actually learn grammar.

183 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:27:06am

re: #178 Cato the Elder

You are such a tool.

And your always write.

184 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:27:33am

re: #161 dugmartsch

Just trying to be helpful before you dig yourself a big hole of intolerance that you're trying to climb out of.

If you find me intolerant, show me how that's the case.

Otherwise, go suck a dug.

185 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:28:07am

re: #179 dugmartsch

Her English had the accent. Though in grade school it was remarked that our class spoke french with a german accent though our teacher was native to the country.

then i don't understand...who cares what accent comes out of a French teacher's mouth when they are speaking English?

186 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:28:33am

re: #169 Cato the Elder

Oh, of course not. Teachers are not role models, right?

Sure they are. But that's not how language acquisition works. If you can show me a single study that shows that students in an immersive environment pick up their teacher's accent, then I'll change my mind.

187 PAUL_MACDONALD  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:28:51am

re: #66 Aceofwhat?

My mom is a High School French teacher. She is not a native French speaker, and actually speaks it with a slight British accent. She is amply qualfied to teach French to people who have never spoken the language.

This is dogwhistle stuff.

188 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:28:54am

but is the real motivation for this legislation to provide the best possible instruction in english, or is there - gasp! - just perhaps - a hidden agenda? have the arizona legislators suddenly developed a passionate intestest in primary school education? really? does racism have nothing whatsoever to do with it?

189 jamesfirecat  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:28:59am

re: #182 Obdicut

My mother has taught freshman English at Rhode Island College for more than twenty years. I used to read the papers her students had submitted; most of her students couldn't regularly construct grammatical sentences. I doubt things have improved. She does a very good job at whipping them into shape, but many of them still don't see the need to write English well; they say, "Well, everyone knows what I mean." I consider that the lamest defense of bad writing.

The students she has who write the best are the immigrant children, since they have had to actually learn grammar.

Isn't that how they deduced the street urchin in my dear lady was a Baverian Princess?

(Well not by her writing but by the care she spoke the language with...)

190 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:29:01am

re: #180 goddamnedfrank

I've had french teachers who learned the language in Viet-Nam, Reunion Island, Montreal, Paris and Baton Rouge. Every one of them was fluent but ever one of them spoke differently. The Parisian presented by far the most difficulty, those fuckers don't give you shit to work with.

how's your accent?

191 dugmartsch  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:29:12am

re: #168 Aceofwhat?

don't project. disagree with Cato if you want, but i can promise you that intolerance is fully lacking in his position on this item.

assumptions like the one you just made only detract from the tenor of a debate.

How is his position tolerant? It's the embodiment of intolerance. Reasonable people are disagreeing about the necessity of that intolerance.

192 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:29:37am
In another controversial shift in state education policy, the Wall Street Journal has reported that the Arizona Department of Education has begun telling principals to remove teachers who speak English with an accent from classes with students who are still learning English.

How about Southern accents? New York accent? Boston?

193 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:29:48am

re: #187 PAUL_MACDONALD

My mom is a High School French teacher. She is not a native French speaker, and actually speaks it with a slight British accent. She is amply qualfied to teach French to people who have never spoken the language.

This is dogwhistle stuff.

qualified? yes. optimal? no.

194 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:29:52am

re: #180 goddamnedfrank

I speak French with, apparently, a totally rustic hick accent, the equivalent of an American Appalachian accent. I lived their briefly and just learned it from that.

Parisians always make fun of my pronunciation.

195 freetoken  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:29:53am

re: #153 Aceofwhat?


this is the wrong way to make that point, though, imho...


Miller (of the Hoover Institute) is a long time critique of regulations, and he is shameless using this oil spill to further his agenda. His anti-regulation stance has often seen him partnering with the AGW-denialists (though he himself accepts it as a real phenomenon but like Lomborg dismisses the negative effects), Inhofe, and the like.

196 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:30:08am

re: #49 Bobibutu

Employers of ESL teachers want native speakers of the language they will be teaching - those with accents need not apply.

So Georgians, New Yorkers, Cape Codders and Texans are now magically unqualified to teach?

How about the British? No English people can teach English?

197 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:30:18am

re: #192 Killgore Trout

How about Southern accents? New York accent? Boston?

Canadian?

198 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:30:18am

re: #171 Oh no...Sand People!

So I guess you aren't too much a fan of Lolcats?

"I Kan haz Cheezburgr!"
/

Actually I am a big fan of texting lingo and LOLcatz. Both are becoming their own genres, and I know perfectly brilliant writers who have adopted and refined and added to the texting jargon.

The last thing I am is without humor. Just ask my broken humerus that I got when cracking wise about a guy's girlfriend at the bar the other night.

199 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:30:46am

re: #194 Obdicut

I speak French with, apparently, a totally rustic hick accent, the equivalent of an American Appalachian accent. I lived their briefly and just learned it from that.

Parisians always make fun of my pronunciation.

make em speak English like I do...

200 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:31:00am

re: #167 brookly red

we all learn to speak like Al Gore...

Are you cereal?

201 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:31:11am

re: #194 Obdicut

Their = there.

Guaranteed, if the thread is about grammar and English, I start spelling crap wrong.

202 dugmartsch  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:31:49am

re: #201 Obdicut

Their = there.

Guaranteed, if the thread is about grammar and English, I start spelling crap wrong.

No i'm pretty sure that's how you spell crap.

203 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:31:50am

re: #183 darthstar

And your always write.

"you're"
/(ducks under desk)...

204 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:32:08am

Accents!

205 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:32:11am

re: #200 Mad Al-Jaffee

Are you cereal?

no, I can stop any time I want...

206 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:32:13am

re: #176 Locker

How is it different?

Because the surrounding immersion-level language is Brooklynese, not German.

207 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:32:15am

re: #191 dugmartsch

How is his position tolerant? It's the embodiment of intolerance. Reasonable people are disagreeing about the necessity of that intolerance.

because he's talking about effects. if the accent has a measurable effect on the quality of the education, it is not intolerant to say so.

"the embodiment of intolerance"? nice. so if my calculus teacher was hispanic and wasn't good at calculus, it'd be intolerant to have wanted his ass fired?

defending a blanket statement sucks, doesn't it?

208 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:33:24am

re: #175 Aceofwhat?

Well, it speeds up language acquisition for some, but not all people, to teach it in a formal setting. It certainly speeds up literacy by a huge amount.

However, in terms of acquiring an accent, there isn't any reason to believe that they ignore the input from all of the other sources to ape their teacher's accent. Furthermore, as someone noted above, rotating teachers is the 'in' thing these days, though I've only heard that for non-immersive language learning; I'm not sure it'd actually make any sense for immersion.

209 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:33:29am

re: #195 freetoken

Miller (of the Hoover Institute) is a long time critique of regulations, and he is shameless using this oil spill to further his agenda. His anti-regulation stance has often seen him partnering with the AGW-denialists (though he himself accepts it as a real phenomenon but like Lomborg dismisses the negative effects), Inhofe, and the like.

i agree with your characterization as "shameless".

this isn't the time or the place. maybe next year, sure. and it's still not the EPA's fault. their oil rig didn't blow up in our backyard.

(i.e. i'm with you on this, regardless of what i think about the EPA's position here)

210 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:33:38am

G2G, LtR PPL!

211 lawhawk  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:33:45am

I learned French from a teacher who came from Belgium. She said at the outset that if you got her accent down, the French would still look down on you - because they'd pick up the Belgian inflections, but that they'd still understand what you have to say.

At the end of the day, that's really what it comes down to - can someone understand what you're saying?

212 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:33:53am

re: #203 Oh no...Sand People!

"you're"
/(ducks under desk)...

I know. I was just fucking with Cato. I realize he's kind of special and gets some extra latitude on some topics, but he's so convinced he's right about this that there's no point in trying to debate him seriously.

213 jvic  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:34:06am

re: #188 engineer dog

but is the real motivation for this legislation to provide the best possible instruction in english, or is there - gasp! - just perhaps - a hidden agenda? have the arizona legislators suddenly developed a passionate intestest in primary school education? really? does racism have nothing whatsoever to do with it?

I'm shocked, shocked that there's cynicism here.

214 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:34:12am

re: #203 Oh no...Sand People!

"you're"
/(ducks under desk)...

One of my favorite obnoxious t-shirts says "Your retarded."

215 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:34:21am

re: #135 Cato the Elder

What is "ELD"?

I hate acronyms.

ELD is English Language Development.

Here's how it goes in California: You enter the country, and get given the California English Language Development Test, otherwise CELDT. (Pronounced "Celt".) You are rated at 1 (no English to speak of) to 5 (fluent). You will remain an English language learner until you are formally declared fluent by achieving a 5 on the CELDT and achieving some other goals.

Now, it's possible to have a middle-school science class with a bunch of 3-5s in it. These are "students who are still learning English", but I see no problem with their math teacher having an accent.

216 elizajane  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:35:03am

re: #165 Cato the Elder

Grammar and spelling fell by the wayside long before texting and Twitter.

......

Later I asked her immediate superior about it, who told me that even in grad school these days, no professor or TA worries about spelling, grammar, syntax or general solecisms. Your grade depends merely on whether you sorta-kinda get the general idea across. In other words, as long as you spew back whatever PC garbage you were indoctrinated with, it's all good.

Sorry, very OT, but I just have to tell you that this is not true. Not only is excellent writing a major criterion for our admissions to the PhD Program (one of the top 3 in the country) but those students go on to be TAs who coach the students quite a lot in writing. There is also a "Writing Center" on campus where we send the students who need more help than we can provide, mostly ESL students. And when I taught at a private university where I did my own grading, I spent a ton of time on Undergraduate writing.

217 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:35:34am

re: #211 lawhawk

I learned French from a teacher who came from Belgium. She said at the outset that if you got her accent down, the French would still look down on you - because they'd pick up the Belgian inflections, but that they'd still understand what you have to say.

At the end of the day, that's really what it comes down to - can someone understand what you're saying?

I picked up a Belgian infection once...

218 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:35:44am

re: #211 lawhawk

I learned French from a teacher who came from Belgium. She said at the outset that if you got her accent down, the French would still look down on you - because they'd pick up the Belgian inflections, but that they'd still understand what you have to say.

At the end of the day, that's really what it comes down to - can someone understand what you're saying?

The Brits speak French with the worst accent but they can do it and be understood.

219 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:35:56am

re: #213 jvic

I'm shocked, shocked that there's cynicism here.

:-) cynicism would only be natural for me since the etymology of 'cynic' involves dogs!

dog philosophers!

220 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:36:02am

re: #208 Obdicut

Well, it speeds up language acquisition for some, but not all people, to teach it in a formal setting. It certainly speeds up literacy by a huge amount.

However, in terms of acquiring an accent, there isn't any reason to believe that they ignore the input from all of the other sources to ape their teacher's accent. Furthermore, as someone noted above, rotating teachers is the 'in' thing these days, though I've only heard that for non-immersive language learning; I'm not sure it'd actually make any sense for immersion.

well, it doesn't make any sense in grade school, either, since teacher rotation happens as a matter of grade progression. so it's a little off-topic (of course, i never stray off topic;)

like i said, i think i'm somewhere in the middle here. it helped me to have native teachers in Belgium, along with my classmates. i'd be disappointed if my child's English teacher had a thick foreign (or very thick southern) accent. but just like the immigration legislation, this is the ugliest way to deal with it IMHO.

221 Locker  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:36:27am

re: #206 Cato the Elder

Because the surrounding immersion-level language is Brooklynese, not German.

Ok so how about this Brooklyn accented teacher wants to teach English in California after a west coast move? If that's not OK what about Jersey? Boston? Is the accent close enough? Who decides?

222 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:36:35am

What's a "dug" and how does one suck it?

223 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:36:40am

re: #212 darthstar

I know. I was just fucking with Cato. I realize he's kind of special and gets some extra latitude on some topics, but he's so convinced he's right about this that there's no point in trying to debate him seriously.

don't be like that. i give you extra latitude on a daily basis just for being ski patrol, dude-

224 Digital Display  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:36:48am

I love accents mostly...I like southern accents..NY accents..Boston...Minnesota..Australian, British, French, It's a beautiful thing..
OK one thing I don't like is that Hoosiers can't say the word Wash..Pisses me off..
Wersh..
No It's Wash..Wersh?
Wash!
Wersh?
Damn it...It's Wash!
Fricking Hoosiers.. It's WASH!
/

225 Mocking Jay  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:36:52am

re: #221 Locker

Ok so how about this Brooklyn accented teacher wants to teach English in California after a west coast move? If that's not OK what about Jersey? Boston? Is the accent close enough? Who decides?

Let's not forget those Cajun accents.

226 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:37:10am

re: #222 MandyManners

What's a "dug" and how does one suck it?

It's a tit, mandy. Usually on a dog.

227 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:37:30am

re: #217 brookly red

I picked up a Belgian infection once...

...but was it worth it?

228 dugmartsch  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:37:33am

re: #207 Aceofwhat?

because he's talking about effects. if the accent has a measurable effect on the quality of the education, it is not intolerant to say so.

"the embodiment of intolerance"? nice. so if my calculus teacher was hispanic and wasn't good at calculus, it'd be intolerant to have wanted his ass fired?

defending a blanket statement sucks, doesn't it?

He literally won't tolerate the non-native, non-accented teaching of English to students. I don't understand what there is to defend. I was not accusing him of being a bigot. His intolerance towards accented english teachers is silly.

229 Mocking Jay  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:37:53am

re: #226 darthstar

It's a tit, mandy. Usually on a dog.

I thought it was connected to a dig...

230 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:37:57am

re: #224 HoosierHoops

My dad has a Boston/Maine accent, so the word 'bath' has about ten As in it when he says it. And it's "Ah".

"Baaaaaaaahhhhth.

231 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:38:08am

re: #224 HoosierHoops

I love accents mostly...I like southern accents..NY accents..Boston...Minnesota..Australian, British, French, It's a beautiful thing..
OK one thing I don't like is that Hoosiers can't say the word Wash..Pisses me off..
Wersh..
No It's Wash..Wersh?
Wash!
Wersh?
Damn it...It's Wash!
Fricking Hoosiers.. It's WASH!
/

in mid-Ohio, it's warsh. and spigot. and stair-step.

232 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:38:08am

re: #226 darthstar

Correction...on a female animal.

233 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:38:25am

re: #174 Decatur Deb

I'm trying to verify for you, but NPR today said one hedge fund manager's 2009 compensation=680,000 teachers.

That sounds about right. But we get the summers off, and to be blamed for all of America's problems, so it's worth it.

234 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:38:59am

re: #227 Aceofwhat?

...but was it worth it?

stopped burning when I started taking the pills...

235 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:40:11am

re: #228 dugmartsch

He literally won't tolerate the non-native, non-accented teaching of English to students. I don't understand what there is to defend. I was not accusing him of being a bigot. His intolerance towards accented english teachers is silly.

your not having understood what there is to defend does not imply that there is nothing to defend. that's what i'm trying to say.

if you don't understand, keep asking him. giving up and crying 'intolerant!' is lazy and unhelpful.

236 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:40:18am

re: #230 Obdicut

My dad has a Boston/Maine accent, so the word 'bath' has about ten As in it when he says it. And it's "Ah".

"Baaahhhth.

what, you get off on terrorizing dogs?

237 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:40:22am

re: #234 brookly red

stopped burning when I started taking the pills...

i'll take that as a yes

238 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:40:43am

re: #182 Obdicut

My mother has taught freshman English at Rhode Island College for more than twenty years. I used to read the papers her students had submitted; most of her students couldn't regularly construct grammatical sentences. I doubt things have improved. She does a very good job at whipping them into shape, but many of them still don't see the need to write English well; they say, "Well, everyone knows what I mean." I consider that the lamest defense of bad writing.

The students she has who write the best are the immigrant children, since they have had to actually learn grammar.

Yep.

Everyone knows what someone means who says "I could care less", and you know what? In the right circumstances, I'll say it too.

I used to hang out with a lot of rough-and-tumble bikers. Damned if I'm going into Daniel's Bar on Route 1 outside Baltimore and start talking like George Plimpton. I also take on the coloration of a Bavarian when speaking German in Munich. I'm kind of a Zelig.

The point you're making is the one I'm trying (apparently very lamely) to make on another level. If you teach non-native speakers English in their non-native accent, you perpetuate their non-nativeness. Whom does that serve? Not them. They may end up writing better than their dim-bulb Arizona-English-speaking classmates, but how does that help them in daily life?

I'm saying that there is surely no shortage of native English speakers who are fluent in Spanish to teach native Spanish-speaking kids English. Certainly not in Arizona.

239 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:41:00am

re: #120 Cato the Elder

You left out the qualifier "good". Disingenuous of you.

I can easily picture a teacher "speaking bad grammar". I've met lots of them.

Generally that's the difference between a native speaker and a second-language speaker, isn't it?

I speak French like a well-educated 5 year old. I'm conversational, but I'm not at all fluent because I don't speak like an adult, or in the lazy way that people speak when they know that the listener is going to get the nuance.

240 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:41:01am

re: #225 JasonA

Let's not forget those Cajun accents.

LIke this?


241 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:41:12am

re: #230 Obdicut

My dad has a Boston/Maine accent, so the word 'bath' has about ten As in it when he says it. And it's "Ah".

"Baaahhhth.

When I say it, it's two full syllables:
ba-yeth.

242 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:41:14am

re: #231 Aceofwhat?

in mid-Ohio, it's warsh. and spigot. and stair-step.

A lot of folks here say warsh, too. Although, it probably comes out more as 'worsh'. We also have some pretty good idears.

243 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:41:30am

re: #226 darthstar

It's a tit, mandy. Usually on a dog.

Yikes!

244 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:41:58am

re: #241 reine.de.tout

When I say it, it's two full syllables:
ba-yeth.

I'd take your English class.

245 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:42:24am

re: #233 SanFranciscoZionist

That sounds about right. But we get the summers off, and to be blamed for all of America's problems, so it's worth it.

I've not verified NPR, but found one guy who beats 68,000 teachers at 58,000 per year. I used to yank my daughter's chain by telling her she made .2 milli-Madonnas per yr.

[Link: www.npr.org...]

246 webevintage  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:42:25am

I've actually got a bit confused here (no surprise).

Is the AZ education department talking about teachers who are teaching students for whom English is a second language and are in classes specifically for them.
OR are they referring to teachers who teach in K-4 (maybe) and teach subjects other then the English language but will have some students in their classes who may still be learning the language.

I'm not sure how this works and who they are actually talking about.

247 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:42:48am

re: #216 elizajane

Sorry, very OT, but I just have to tell you that this is not true. Not only is excellent writing a major criterion for our admissions to the PhD Program (one of the top 3 in the country) but those students go on to be TAs who coach the students quite a lot in writing. There is also a "Writing Center" on campus where we send the students who need more help than we can provide, mostly ESL students. And when I taught at a private university where I did my own grading, I spent a ton of time on Undergraduate writing.

ooh - is it intrusive to ask if you have a PhD, and in what? i'm intrigued-

248 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:42:54am

re: #227 Aceofwhat?

...but was it worth it?

Ohe shot cured it.

249 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:43:18am

The 3rd photo in the slideshow here (below the videos) shows oil coming into La marshlands, for anyone who's interested.

250 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:43:28am

re: #191 dugmartsch

How is his position tolerant? It's the embodiment of intolerance. Reasonable people are disagreeing about the necessity of that intolerance.

You don't know me, so I'll say this once, clearly: I know enough about you already to say with confidence that I could not tolerate your company in a bar, on a boat, or in bed.

251 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:43:30am

re: #248 MandyManners

Ohe shot cured it.

no I had to take the pills for a week...

252 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:43:59am

re: #244 darthstar

I'd take your English class.

she'd beat you senseless...

253 Mocking Jay  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:44:00am

re: #238 Cato the Elder

Yep.

Everyone knows what someone means who says "I could care less", and you know what? In the right circumstances, I'll say it too.

I used to hang out with a lot of rough-and-tumble bikers. Damned if I'm going into Daniel's Bar on Route 1 outside Baltimore and start talking like George Plimpton. I also take on the coloration of a Bavarian when speaking German in Munich. I'm kind of a Zelig.

The point you're making is the one I'm trying (apparently very lamely) to make on another level. If you teach non-native speakers English in their non-native accent, you perpetuate their non-nativeness. Whom does that serve? Not them. They may end up writing better than their dim-bulb Arizona-English-speaking classmates, but how does that help them in daily life?

I'm saying that there is surely no shortage of native English speakers who are fluent in Spanish to teach native Spanish-speaking kids English. Certainly not in Arizona.

This really does seem to argue that Americans with accents from other parts of the country are unfit to teach outside of their own region.

254 garzooma  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:45:19am

Does this mean Boomhauer can't get a teaching job?

255 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:45:26am

re: #241 reine.de.tout

When I say it, it's two full syllables:
ba-yeth.

When I lived in East Tennessee, I picked up a strange accent. When I was dirty, I took a "shar". I planted pretty "flars".

256 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:45:44am

re: #255 MandyManners

When I lived in East Tennessee, I picked up a strange accent. When I was dirty, I took a "shar". I planted pretty "flars".

Did you also eat bald eggs?

257 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:45:49am

re: #246 webevintage

I've actually got a bit confused here (no surprise).

Is the AZ education department talking about teachers who are teaching students for whom English is a second language and are in classes specifically for them.
OR are they referring to teachers who teach in K-4 (maybe) and teach subjects other then the English language but will have some students in their classes who may still be learning the language.

I'm not sure how this works and who they are actually talking about.

Arizona's just striving for homogeneity...though don't tell them about the 'homo' part of the word...that could start a whole movement against homogeneity amongst the Teabag/birther crowd.

258 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:45:59am

re: #164 Obdicut

And again, since it's an immersive environment, they're learning from far more than the teachers. They're learning from conversations around them, from television, radio, their classmates, etc.

Exactly. To think that ANYONE learning a second language is somehow going to magically develop a native accent is insane.

See, a lot of these kids are on their 3rd language (Mexicans who immigrate illegally are not usually native Spanish speakers from Mexico City. They speak rural dialects or indigenous languages.).

They're still going back home to a non-English speaking community and will grow up bilingual, but with accents. What this law is telling these kids is that their accent is bad and wrong and that's a terrible thing to do to a kid.

259 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:46:11am

re: #238 Cato the Elder

Again: If you can show me an paper that says that learning a language from a teacher with an accent while immersed in that language transfers the accent, I'll change my mind. I do not think that this is the case in the least, though.

And further: There is no official language of the United States. It is not English. There is nothing 'non-native' about not speaking English. It would be foolish, harmful, pointless, and certainly show a perverse desire not to assimilate, but one could be a native American and not speak English at all.

260 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:46:34am

re: #252 Aceofwhat?

she'd beat you senseless...

The baptists tried that in the ninth grade. Didn't work.

261 Lidane  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:46:34am

re: #24 cliffster

I think it's safe to say that ethnic studies programs have nothing to do with the violence along the border.

Pfft. Everyone knows that ethnic studies programs are nothing but propaganda to infect the minds of pure, God-fearing (white) American children with the notion that minorities exist.

///Oh, how I wish I was only kidding.

262 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:46:36am

re: #212 darthstar

I know. I was just fucking with Cato. I realize he's kind of special and gets some extra latitude on some topics, but he's so convinced he's right about this that there's no point in trying to debate him seriously.

Thank you for the admission. If I'm "special", come and school me!

There's certainly no point in debating you on issues of Realpolitik, so I guess we're even.

263 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:47:00am

re: #238 Cato the Elder

you perpetuate their non-nativeness.

Do you think they are going to lose their accent by being taught lily-white English? I know people that have lived here for decades and still have their accents. Where is the uproar that people need to lose their European accents? I wonder why this is just now becoming an issue? Hmm....

264 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:47:21am

re: #249 reine.de.tout

The 3rd photo in the slideshow here (below the videos) shows oil coming into La marshlands, for anyone who's interested.

Dang. First, Katrina. Now, this.

265 zora  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:48:04am

re: #246 webevintage

it was my understanding that a teacher with accented english can no longer teach english. and there will be no ethnic studies. they fear it will make them anti-government. how ironic.

266 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:48:15am

re: #258 ~Fianna

Yeah, if at home they still speak Spanish and listen to Spanish radio and watch Spanish TV and speak Spanish with their friends, they're going to develop that accent no matter how beautifully their teacher speaks English, as well. That's a good point from the other end of the immersion scale.

267 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:48:26am

re: #256 reine.de.tout

Did you also eat bald eggs?

I don't recall the pronounciation for that but, I remember "doctor" was pronounced with a long "o". And, "sick" was pronounced "seek".

268 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:48:27am

re: #246 webevintage

I've actually got a bit confused here (no surprise).

Is the AZ education department talking about teachers who are teaching students for whom English is a second language and are in classes specifically for them.
OR are they referring to teachers who teach in K-4 (maybe) and teach subjects other then the English language but will have some students in their classes who may still be learning the language.

I'm not sure how this works and who they are actually talking about.

We'd need more information.

269 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:49:25am

re: #255 MandyManners

East Tennessee should be its own state. "What are youins doin tonight?"

270 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:49:53am

re: #258 ~Fianna

Exactly. To think that ANYONE learning a second language is somehow going to magically develop a native accent is insane.

See, a lot of these kids are on their 3rd language (Mexicans who immigrate illegally are not usually native Spanish speakers from Mexico City. They speak rural dialects or indigenous languages.).

They're still going back home to a non-English speaking community and will grow up bilingual, but with accents. What this law is telling these kids is that their accent is bad and wrong and that's a terrible thing to do to a kid.

huh? I speak French with a slight Brussels twang because i moved there early enough. Kids, pre-puberty, can pick up the native accent flawlessly.

they'll grow up bilingual, with no accent, unless accented teachers are enough of an influence to lend them an accent.

i honestly don't know the answer to that. but your comment as written is incorrect.

271 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:50:37am

re: #260 darthstar

The baptists tried that in the ninth grade. Didn't work.

oh - i guess i was thinking she'd beat you out of principle, as opposed to in pursuit of some more noble goal/

272 jvic  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:50:38am

English is my third language. I started at four, so no one mentions an accent.

However, writing is laborious and I have to iterate even the simplest thing.

My work-related documents and presentations are professional-grade, but they require a lot of drafts.

Of course multiple interpretations of this suggest themselves. This is just one person's experience, fwiw.

And now I must log off.

273 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:50:43am

re: #266 Obdicut

Yeah, if at home they still speak Spanish and listen to Spanish radio and watch Spanish TV and speak Spanish with their friends, they're going to develop that accent no matter how beautifully their teacher speaks English, as well. That's a good point from the other end of the immersion scale.

BAN MEXICAN RADIO!!!


274 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:50:47am

re: #265 zora

it was my understanding that a teacher with accented english can no longer teach english. and there will be no ethnic studies. they fear it will make them anti-government. how ironic.

So I guess the Verslunarmannahelgi campout is off.

275 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:51:35am

re: #215 SanFranciscoZionist

ELD is English Language Development.

Here's how it goes in California: You enter the country, and get given the California English Language Development Test, otherwise CELDT. (Pronounced "Celt".) You are rated at 1 (no English to speak of) to 5 (fluent). You will remain an English language learner until you are formally declared fluent by achieving a 5 on the CELDT and achieving some other goals.

Now, it's possible to have a middle-school science class with a bunch of 3-5s in it. These are "students who are still learning English", but I see no problem with their math teacher having an accent.

OK, thank you for the definition.

My mistake here may lie in the generosity of my nature. I assumed that the AZ diktat has to do with ESL students, in the case of whom I would clearly see a rationale for having native English speakers fluent in Spanish teaching the classes.

We all know what happens when one makes assumptions. I am trying to be fair and give the AZ people the benefit of the doubt by assuming that not all of this stems from xenophobia pure and simple.

Perhaps I'm wrong.

276 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:52:39am

re: #269 tnguitarist

East Tennessee should be its own state. "What are youins doin tonight?"

Oh, how could I forget "youinses"?!

BTW, it's the same in the bordering regions of North Carolina and Virginia. And, it's the same in West Virginia and Kentucky. It's a mountain thing.

277 Mocking Jay  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:52:59am

re: #275 Cato the Elder

OK, thank you for the definition.

I am trying to be fair and give the AZ people the benefit of the doubt by assuming that not all of this stems from xenophobia pure and simple.

Perhaps I'm wrong.

You didn't find the timing to be at all suspect?

278 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:53:02am

re: #260 darthstar

The baptists tried that in the ninth grade. Didn't work.

Baptists are pussies. Irish Catholics and Scottish protesetants are to be afeard, er, uh, um, feared.

I've been pounded twice in my life, both times by a skinny, over the top, red haired irish-american who was gunning for Joe Pesci's Goodfellows part.

279 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:53:22am

re: #216 elizajane

Sorry, very OT, but I just have to tell you that this is not true. Not only is excellent writing a major criterion for our admissions to the PhD Program (one of the top 3 in the country) but those students go on to be TAs who coach the students quite a lot in writing. There is also a "Writing Center" on campus where we send the students who need more help than we can provide, mostly ESL students. And when I taught at a private university where I did my own grading, I spent a ton of time on Undergraduate writing.

For your admissions program. Are you generalizing from that to the whole system? Because I assure you I've met Ph.D. candidates who couldn't write or spell their way out of a wet, biodegraded plastic bag.

280 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:53:34am

re: #270 Aceofwhat?

huh? I speak French with a slight Brussels twang because i moved there early enough. Kids, pre-puberty, can pick up the native accent flawlessly.

they'll grow up bilingual, with no accent, unless accented teachers are enough of an influence to lend them an accent.

i honestly don't know the answer to that. but your comment as written is incorrect.

Youngest daughter went to an Italian middle school. Umbrians think she's from the Veneto, not New Jersey.

281 Quant  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:53:35am

Since everyone speaks English with an accent, who will they get to teach English?

282 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:53:37am

re: #275 Cato the Elder

OK, thank you for the definition.

My mistake here may lie in the generosity of my nature. I assumed that the AZ diktat has to do with ESL students, in the case of whom I would clearly see a rationale for having native English speakers fluent in Spanish teaching the classes.

We all know what happens when one makes assumptions. I am trying to be fair and give the AZ people the benefit of the doubt by assuming that not all of this stems from xenophobia pure and simple.

Perhaps I'm wrong.

why, you intolerant sonofa...wait...what?

283 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:53:50am

re: #221 Locker

Ok so how about this Brooklyn accented teacher wants to teach English in California after a west coast move? If that's not OK what about Jersey? Boston? Is the accent close enough? Who decides?

I do. Obviously.

284 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:54:12am

re: #280 Decatur Deb

Youngest daughter went to an Italian middle school. Umbrians think she's from the Veneto, not New Jersey.

bingo

285 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:54:12am

re: #281 Quant

Since everyone speaks English with an accent, who will they get to teach English?

Venusians.

286 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:54:14am

re: #222 MandyManners

What's a "dug" and how does one suck it?

It's another word for "tit". How you suck it is up to you.

287 PAUL_MACDONALD  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:54:16am

re: #193 Aceofwhat?

qualified? yes. optimal? no.

Well, optimal, yes. She was instructed originally in Paris and none of her peers or colleagues in all her years of teaching has had an issue with her ability to speak or instruct in French. She actually thinks in French and English. Her accent sounds nothing like a French accent from Africa, Asia, Canada or even regions in France. Oddly, she can be perfectly understood by people from those regions...

We all know that the Arizona law will only apply to Hispanic teachers who teach English. Any other stance is disingenous. The accent thing is bullshit. I understand a Cockney accent as easily as a Southern Drawl.

288 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:54:29am

OT - Building on 18th and Walnut in Philly currently on fire. Looks like it's on a floor close to the roof. Lots of black smoke and occasional spurts of flame.

289 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:54:36am

re: #281 Quant

Since everyone speaks English with an accent, who will they get to teach English?

HAL

290 badger1970  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:54:37am

re: #281 Quant

Since everyone speaks English with an accent, who will they get to teach English?

The computer from "Wargames".

291 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:54:46am

re: #262 Cato the Elder

Thank you for the admission. If I'm "special", come and school me!

There's certainly no point in debating you on issues of Realpolitik, so I guess we're even.

No worries...most of the time you're a fairly reasonable creature (I mean that)...and I actually agree with you on some things (not that that's important or relevant)...on others, I suspect your sphincter blocks your eyes from seeing the big picture (and, of course, I also sometimes suffer from the same infliction--head lodged in sphincter--as many have pointed out to me over the years).

292 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:55:06am

re: #229 JasonA

I thought it was connected to a dig...

Only if you're digging up mummified dogs.

293 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:55:14am

re: #276 MandyManners

Oh, how could I forget "youinses"?!

BTW, it's the same in the bordering regions of North Carolina and Virginia. And, it's the same in West Virginia and Kentucky. It's a mountain thing.

I lived out that way for a couple of years. More moonshine than you can shake a stick at.

294 wrenchwench  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:55:15am

re: #289 Aceofwhat?

HAL

re: #290 badger1970

The computer from "Wargames".

Nice!

295 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:55:16am

re: #287 PAUL_MACDONALD

Well, optimal, yes. She was instructed originally in Paris and none of her peers or colleagues in all her years of teaching has had an issue with her ability to speak or instruct in French. She actually thinks in French and English. Her accent sounds nothing like a French accent from Africa, Asia, Canada or even regions in France. Oddly, she can be perfectly understood by people from those regions...

what does her accent sound like?

296 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:55:24am

re: #290 badger1970

The computer from "Wargames".

Want to play a game?

297 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:55:30am

re: #221 Locker

Ok so how about this Brooklyn accented teacher wants to teach English in California after a west coast move? If that's not OK what about Jersey? Boston? Is the accent close enough? Who decides?

Like I said. This isn't and won't be about all accents. They're just targeting Mexican and Spanish accents.

298 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:55:36am

re: #271 Aceofwhat?

oh - i guess i was thinking she'd beat you out of principle, as opposed to in pursuit of some more noble goal/

She's pretty cute...that could be fun. /

299 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:55:45am

re: #269 tnguitarist

East Tennessee should be its own state. "What are youins doin tonight?"

I've always associated 'youins' with middle Tennessee, and y'all with the mountains. My kin in Knoxville say y'all, the ones out by Crossville say you'ns.

300 Mocking Jay  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:55:47am

re: #292 Cato the Elder

Only if you're digging up mummified dogs.

I was thinking something more like this:

Image: digdug.jpg

301 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:56:23am

re: #293 tnguitarist

I lived out that way for a couple of years. More moonshine than you can shake a stick at.

Prettiest land on God's green earth.

302 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:56:41am

re: #289 Aceofwhat?

HAL

What are you doing, Dave?

303 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:56:55am

re: #256 reine.de.tout

Did you also eat bald eggs?

Are those anything like boylt eggs?

304 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:57:00am

re: #296 MandyManners

Want to play a game?

what you got in mind?

305 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:57:32am

re: #269 tnguitarist

East Tennessee should be its own state. "What are youins doin tonight?"

I got some moonshine in Tennessee once...smoothest stuff I've ever tasted...have longed for it since.

306 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:57:35am

re: #259 Obdicut

Again: If you can show me an paper that says that learning a language from a teacher with an accent while immersed in that language transfers the accent, I'll change my mind. I do not think that this is the case in the least, though.

And further: There is no official language of the United States. It is not English. There is nothing 'non-native' about not speaking English. It would be foolish, harmful, pointless, and certainly show a perverse desire not to assimilate, but one could be a native American and not speak English at all.

You need "papers" and "studies" for everything?

Do your own damn googling. I speak from experience, which you're free to reject.

307 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:57:36am

re: #259 Obdicut

Again: If you can show me an paper that says that learning a language from a teacher with an accent while immersed in that language transfers the accent, I'll change my mind. I do not think that this is the case in the least, though.

And further: There is no official language of the United States. It is not English. There is nothing 'non-native' about not speaking English. It would be foolish, harmful, pointless, and certainly show a perverse desire not to assimilate, but one could be a native American and not speak English at all.

Please note, also not all the students labeled English language learners in California are foreign-born, but that's a problem for another time.

308 Digital Display  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:57:53am

re: #301 MandyManners

Prettiest land on God's green earth.

Prettier than Napa Valley? I think not!
/LOL Hi Mandy

309 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:58:05am

re: #260 darthstar

The baptists tried that in the ninth grade. Didn't work.

Ah, so it's not just Catholic nuns?

310 webevintage  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:58:10am

Here is the story a bit more in depth from the WSJ.

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

I would assume (yes I am being generous here) that even teachers who native English speakers will be evaluated to make sure they are up to snuff and not just those for whom Spanish is their native tongue.

311 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:58:10am

re: #296 MandyManners

Want to play a game?

Open the pod bay doors HAL.

312 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:58:21am

re: #307 SanFranciscoZionist

Please note, also not all the students labeled English language learners in California are foreign-born, but that's a problem for another time.

Duncan Hunter has a solution for that...a shitty one, but hey, it's Duncan Hunter.

313 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:58:49am

re: #288 oaktree

OT - Building on 18th and Walnut in Philly currently on fire. Looks like it's on a floor close to the roof. Lots of black smoke and occasional spurts of flame.

It's now out. Quick response by the fire department and once they got a hose crew up there it looks like it was rapidly put under control. I presume that traffic will be a mess around there and that a bunch of folk got evacuated.

314 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:58:51am

re: #311 Mad Al-Jaffee

Open the pod bay doors HAL.

I need to see you papers John....

315 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:59:05am

re: #299 Jeff In Ohio

I've always associated 'youins' with middle Tennessee, and y'all with the mountains. My kin in Knoxville say y'all, the ones out by Crossville say you'ns.

Somebody's got it backwards. I'm in middle Tennessee. This is y'all country. I lived in two different places in the East, and they were both all about some youins.

316 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 11:59:30am

re: #309 Cato the Elder

Ah, so it's not just Catholic nuns?

The nuns never beat me in grade school. They found guilt to be a much greater weapon against misbehaving boys. Ninth grade, Grace Baptist High School, was a different story...those fuckers LOVED using corporal punishment.

317 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:00:02pm

re: #275 Cato the Elder

OK, thank you for the definition.

My mistake here may lie in the generosity of my nature. I assumed that the AZ diktat has to do with ESL students, in the case of whom I would clearly see a rationale for having native English speakers fluent in Spanish teaching the classes.

We all know what happens when one makes assumptions. I am trying to be fair and give the AZ people the benefit of the doubt by assuming that not all of this stems from xenophobia pure and simple.

Perhaps I'm wrong.

I honestly don't know. I based my interpretation on what was written above, but I'd need to see exactly what they're saying to see how rational it is.

318 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:00:29pm

re: #305 darthstar

I got some moonshine in Tennessee once...smoothest stuff I've ever tasted...have longed for it since.

There's some really good apple pie moonshine going around right now. Not as strong, but sweet as candy. That's probably not a good thing.

319 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:01:05pm

re: #316 darthstar

The nuns never beat me in grade school. They found guilt to be a much greater weapon against misbehaving boys. Ninth grade, Grace Baptist High School, was a different story...those fuckers LOVED using corporal punishment.

yowza.

Christians can be weird. And i'm a card-carrying member...

320 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:02:04pm

re: #318 tnguitarist

There's some really good apple pie moonshine going around right now. Not as strong, but sweet as candy. That's probably not a good thing.

Okay...if I give you an address, can you mail me some moonshine? Put it in a box, send it UPS, they don't need to know what's in it. I'm willing to pay for good home-made shine.

321 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:02:37pm

re: #312 darthstar

Duncan Hunter has a solution for that...a shitty one, but hey, it's Duncan Hunter.

Duncan Hunter can fix the special ed programs in California? God bless the man!

//

322 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:02:40pm

Arizona. WTF.

323 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:02:48pm

re: #4 Killgore Trout

Heh.

Speaking of Johanna Haver and accents. Here's her Facebook page:

[Link: www.facebook.com...]

Under politicians she has Michele Bachmann.

Figures.

324 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:02:57pm

re: #270 Aceofwhat?

huh? I speak French with a slight Brussels twang because i moved there early enough. Kids, pre-puberty, can pick up the native accent flawlessly.

they'll grow up bilingual, with no accent, unless accented teachers are enough of an influence to lend them an accent.

i honestly don't know the answer to that. but your comment as written is incorrect.

That might be. Most of my experience with non-native speakers of English is that they never completely lose their accent if they're not completely immersed. Even most of my American-born friends who were children of non-native English speakers had an accent because they still spoke a language other than English at home (mostly Russian).

The only ones who didn't have an accent at all are the ones who weren't taught their parent's language - usually because their parents didn't want them to have an accent, or because that was the language they spoke in when they didn't want the kids to understand what they were saying. :)

325 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:03:06pm

re: #316 darthstar

The nuns never beat me in grade school. They found guilt to be a much greater weapon against misbehaving boys. Ninth grade, Grace Baptist High School, was a different story...those fuckers LOVED using corporal punishment.

I had nuns 24/7 for 5 years, got busted about 1/3 as often as warranted.

326 PAUL_MACDONALD  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:04:18pm

re: #295 Aceofwhat?

what does her accent sound like?

Parisian French with a slight English accent. Her English accent really got masked when she moved to Canada after WWII. Still hear it on the phone, because she feels that she must enunciate clearly.

What is being missed here is that there is no correct accent for any language. Even in the UK, there are hundreds of accents.

327 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:04:36pm

re: #277 JasonA

You didn't find the timing to be at all suspect?

My bad.

From now on, I will be quicker to jump on the bandwagon.

Actually, no I won't.

Thing is, after 9/11 I jumped on the bandwagon here and found myself in some very bad company, which I bought into wholeheartedly and contributed to in ways that now make me ashamed. I used to think Pam was the shit.

So you'll perhaps forgive me if my role is now more that of advocatus diaboli and I don't jump on bandwagons that easily anymore, even when the bandwagon's tune is playing the "look at all those asshole xenophobes from Arizona".

By the way, I have never joined a political party, a fraternity, a sodality, a secret society, or a mob.

328 ArchangelMichael  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:05:15pm

re: #316 darthstar

The nuns never beat me in grade school. They found guilt to be a much greater weapon against misbehaving boys. Ninth grade, Grace Baptist High School, was a different story...those fuckers LOVED using corporal punishment.

Anything like this:

329 Quant  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:05:20pm

re: #289 Aceofwhat?

I've had an English teacher who sounded a bit like Marvin the paranoid android.

330 lawhawk  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:05:21pm

re: #314 brookly red

I need to see you papers JohnDave...

/ftfy

331 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:05:21pm

re: #327 Cato the Elder

My bad.

From now on, I will be quicker to jump on the bandwagon.

Actually, no I won't.

Thing is, after 9/11 I jumped on the bandwagon here and found myself in some very bad company, which I bought into wholeheartedly and contributed to in ways that now make me ashamed. I used to think Pam was the shit.

So you'll perhaps forgive me if my role is now more that of advocatus diaboli and I don't jump on bandwagons that easily anymore, even when the bandwagon's tune is playing the "look at all those asshole xenophobes from Arizona".

By the way, I have never joined a political party, a fraternity, a sodality, a secret society, or a mob.

yet here you are...

332 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:05:45pm

re: #319 Aceofwhat?

yowza.

Christians can be weird. And i'm a card-carrying member...

I can remember them joking about it after giving me swats...I got to the point where once, when the teacher said I was going to get three swats I said, "fuck it, give me five for swearing too"...he did. Then one day I refused them. They sent me to the principal, I called my parents, and they didn't know I'd been getting these things regularly, so they told me to take my punishment. When I got home and told them that I'd been beaten about a dozen times that year so far, the swats mysteriously stopped. (apparently, notifying the parents wasn't something the school felt was necessary, and my folks didn't appreciate that)

333 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:05:48pm

re: #304 brookly red

what you got in mind?

Thermo-nuclear war.

334 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:05:52pm

re: #324 ~Fianna

The only ones who didn't have an accent at all are the ones who weren't taught their parent's language - usually because their parents didn't want them to have an accent, or because that was the language they spoke in when they didn't want the kids to understand what they were saying. :)

Heh. We knew a few other Americans in Brussels at the time, and occasionally when we kids would play in a larger group, an argument would break out in English and the Belgian kids would just stare at us...funny stuff;)

335 Lidane  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:06:00pm

re: #322 Varek Raith

Arizona. WTF.

Seriously. It's like the collective IQ over there has just disintegrated in the last couple of weeks.

336 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:06:00pm

re: #315 tnguitarist

Somebody's got it backwards. I'm in middle Tennessee. This is y'all country. I lived in two different places in the East, and they were both all about some youins.

I could be wrong. I've been visiting family in the Sequachie Valley area for almost 45 years (they been there for over 200) and the only place I've ever heard you'ns was in that area, mostly down around the Dayton area. I was born in Lexington, Ky and have been playing music in eastern Tennessee, North Carolina, Kentucky, West Virginia area for 25 years and never heard it once.

337 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:06:07pm

re: #308 HoosierHoops

Prettier than Napa Valley? I think not!
/LOL Hi Mandy

'Sup?

338 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:06:16pm

Instapundit and Mark Levin join the effort to manufacture a Katrina-like outrage....


MARK LEVIN: “Why did it take President Obama 8 days to do anything regarding the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico?”

Posted at 2:33 pm by Glenn Reynolds

339 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:06:18pm
340 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:06:23pm

re: #311 Mad Al-Jaffee

Open the pod bay doors HAL.

I can't do that, Dave.

341 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:06:29pm

re: #300 JasonA

I was thinking something more like this:

Image: digdug.jpg

Your age is showing. ;^)

342 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:06:40pm

re: #329 Quant

I've had an English teacher who sounded a bit like Marvin the paranoid android.

343 Digital Display  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:06:44pm

re: #318 tnguitarist

There's some really good apple pie moonshine going around right now. Not as strong, but sweet as candy. That's probably not a good thing.

I've only had it once..Awesome...The Boys and I went to the very first game played at Lucas Oil Stadium against the Bills.. It was colder than you can believe..The tail gate party was miserable...Want a cold beer? No thanks I think I'll just stand here and die of cold.. Then some guy brought a couple gallons of Apple Pie moonshine..
WOW...That will warm you up in no time....

344 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:07:01pm

re: #315 tnguitarist

Somebody's got it backwards. I'm in middle Tennessee. This is y'all country. I lived in two different places in the East, and they were both all about some youins.

Same here. I lived all over Tennessee when I was a child and young adult.

345 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:07:11pm

re: #333 MandyManners

Thermo-nuclear war.

sounds kinky...

346 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:07:32pm

re: #326 PAUL_MACDONALD

Parisian French with a slight English accent. Her English accent really got masked when she moved to Canada after WWII. Still hear it on the phone, because she feels that she must enunciate clearly.

What is being missed here is that there is no correct accent for any language. Even in the UK, there are hundreds of accents.

no, we're not missing that. and i like how your example is one of a "slight" foreign accent. you really think this is about slight accents, regardless of one's position on the subject?

do you have an actual example handy?

347 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:07:42pm

re: #316 darthstar

The nuns never beat me in grade school. They found guilt to be a much greater weapon against misbehaving boys. Ninth grade, Grace Baptist High School, was a different story...those fuckers LOVED using corporal punishment.

Funny that there's no big scandal there. Not.

348 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:08:04pm

re: #320 darthstar

Okay...if I give you an address, can you mail me some moonshine? Put it in a box, send it UPS, they don't need to know what's in it. I'm willing to pay for good home-made shine.

Seriously? Because I will.

349 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:08:11pm

re: #346 Aceofwhat?

no, we're not missing that. and i like how your example is one of a "slight" foreign accent. you really think this is about slight accents, regardless of one's position on the subject?

do you have an actual example handy?

Well, we don't know what the hell this is about. Actually.

350 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:08:23pm

re: #319 Aceofwhat?

yowza.

Christians can be weird. And i'm a card-carrying member...

We get cards? What happened to mine?

351 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:08:31pm

re: #334 Aceofwhat?

Heh. We knew a few other Americans in Brussels at the time, and occasionally when we kids would play in a larger group, an argument would break out in English and the Belgian kids would just stare at us...funny stuff;)

How much English did the Belgian kids speak?

352 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:08:32pm

re: #347 Cato the Elder

Funny that there's no big scandal there. Not.


I'll give the Baptists credit for one thing...they cured me of my faith in god.

353 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:08:57pm

re: #348 tnguitarist

Seriously? Because I will.

ahem, cough, feds, cough, cough...

354 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:09:01pm

re: #329 Quant

I've had an English teacher who sounded a bit like Marvin the paranoid android.

well that's just cool, right there-

355 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:09:09pm

re: #339 Gus 802

Viva el acento!

Ricardo Montalban - Archive Interview Excerpt


[Video]

I used to eat at a place that had a cook from Martinique. You would want to listen to her describe pots all day.

356 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:09:14pm

re: #348 tnguitarist

Seriously? Because I will.

My nic is blue. Send me an email and we'll work out the details. Thanks!

357 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:09:22pm

re: #336 Jeff In Ohio

I could be wrong. I've been visiting family in the Sequachie Valley area for almost 45 years (they been there for over 200) and the only place I've ever heard you'ns was in that area, mostly down around the Dayton area. I was born in Lexington, Ky and have been playing music in eastern Tennessee, North Carolina, Kentucky, West Virginia area for 25 years and never heard it once.

The first time I ever heard youin was in Sweetwater.

358 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:09:33pm

re: #349 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, we don't know what the hell this is about. Actually.

the only thing it's not about is a faint accent. right?

359 Lidane  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:09:37pm

re: #329 Quant

I've had an English teacher who sounded a bit like Marvin the paranoid android.

And I had a racquetball coach who sounded like Pete Puma. It made that class interesting, to say the least. Heh.

360 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:10:00pm
361 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:10:24pm

re: #332 darthstar

I can remember them joking about it after giving me swats...I got to the point where once, when the teacher said I was going to get three swats I said, "fuck it, give me five for swearing too"...he did. Then one day I refused them. They sent me to the principal, I called my parents, and they didn't know I'd been getting these things regularly, so they told me to take my punishment. When I got home and told them that I'd been beaten about a dozen times that year so far, the swats mysteriously stopped. (apparently, notifying the parents wasn't something the school felt was necessary, and my folks didn't appreciate that)

Hold out your hand for the pandybat.

362 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:10:26pm

re: #358 Aceofwhat?

the only thing it's not about is a faint accent. right?

Honestly, I don't know. I have seen some of most dumbass stuff done in the name of education.

363 badger1970  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:10:35pm

re: #359 Lidane

And I had a racquetball coach who sounded like Pete Puma. It made that class interesting, to say the least. Heh.

Ooooooouuuuuuuuu! I'll take two lumps.

364 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:11:09pm

re: #351 ~Fianna

How much English did the Belgian kids speak?

none. that's why they just stared. they thought it was hilarious but didn't want it to stop.

(i was/am...eh...a little competitive with regard to sports. i'm better off playing tennis. no one to get upset with but myself;)

365 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:11:21pm
366 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:11:24pm
367 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:11:32pm

re: #352 darthstar

I'll give the Baptists credit for one thing...they cured me of my faith in god.

That's a very sad statement.

368 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:11:40pm

re: #363 badger1970

Oooouuu! I'll take two lumps.

Oh, no, not tea!

Alright then, what should we drink?

COFFEE!

369 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:11:44pm
re: #120 Cato the Elder

You left out the qualifier "good". Disingenuous of you.

I can easily picture a teacher "speaking bad grammar". I've met lots of them.

to be clear, you misunderstood my main point. i don't doubt that many teachers speak ungrammatically, and i didn't mean to dispute what the original speaker meant to say

my point was that to say somebody is "speaking good grammar" is unclear thinking - that's all. "grammar" is not a language, it is an abstract paradigm of language construction. the phrase "speaks good grammar" grates on my ears, but i don't dispute the point

this post has been brought to you by the Department of Obsessive-Compulsive Engineers

370 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:11:58pm

re: #345 brookly red

sounds kinky...

It'll take the kink right out of ya'.

371 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:12:07pm

re: #359 Lidane

And I had a racquetball coach who sounded like Pete Puma. It made that class interesting, to say the least. Heh.

HA!

I don't want tea...gives me a headache!

(yes, i have that episode memorized, and yes, i do a decent Pete Puma. make of that what you will;)

372 Digital Display  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:12:11pm

re: #337 MandyManners

'Sup?

Looking for a good movie..Hope today finds you well

373 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:12:38pm

re: #353 brookly red

ahem, cough, feds, cough, cough...

I've mailed dope to people before. There was this ultra-conservative guy on another forum one time that used to get into big arguments with me. We got to be decent friends, so I twisted up a couple of fatties and sent them to him--wrapped in American flag papers. Afterwards, when he thanked me for the gift, I said, "So, did you burn the American flag or not?" He did.

374 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:12:43pm

re: #352 darthstar

I'll give the Baptists credit for one thing...they cured me of my faith in god.

i knew you would say that, and it's still incredibly sad to read. because i know you're telling the truth.

375 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:12:43pm

re: #370 MandyManners

It'll take the kink right out of ya'.

OK so I pushed the button... now what?

376 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:13:17pm

re: #368 Varek Raith

gmta...and well done-

377 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:13:18pm

re: #361 Cato the Elder

Hold out your hand for the pandybat.

Try cricket bat versus buttocks.

378 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:13:33pm

re: #370 MandyManners

It'll take the kink right out of ya'.

I would be jealous but for the absurd superfluous apostrophe.

A dominatrix who can't spell has no power over me.

379 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:13:46pm

More info. What she's describing sounds fairly reasonable.

380 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:13:48pm

re: #372 HoosierHoops

Looking for a good movie..Hope today finds you well

theater or dvd? and what genre?

381 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:13:50pm

re: #373 darthstar

I've mailed dope to people before. There was this ultra-conservative guy on another forum one time that used to get into big arguments with me. We got to be decent friends, so I twisted up a couple of fatties and sent them to him--wrapped in American flag papers. Afterwards, when he thanked me for the gift, I said, "So, did you burn the American flag or not?" He did.

Excellent story!

382 Lidane  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:13:52pm

re: #373 darthstar

We got to be decent friends, so I twisted up a couple of fatties and sent them to him--wrapped in American flag papers. Afterwards, when he thanked me for the gift, I said, "So, did you burn the American flag or not?" He did.

Ha! That's awesome.

383 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:13:56pm

re: #377 darthstar

Try cricket bat versus buttocks.

Jaysus.

384 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:14:28pm

re: #364 Aceofwhat?

none. that's why they just stared. they thought it was hilarious but didn't want it to stop.

(i was/am...eh...a little competitive with regard to sports. i'm better off playing tennis. no one to get upset with but myself;)

I know that the European education systems tend to be better at introducing early language study to kids than the American schools often are.

When we were in Portugal, almost everyone around my age and younger spoke English fairly well. And would apologize profusely for how badly they spoke it, even though their grasp of my language is light-years ahead of my grasp of theirs. Yes, they got some little things wrong, but they were 100% understandable and we could communicate just fine.

385 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:14:31pm
386 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:14:51pm

re: #379 SanFranciscoZionist

More info. What she's describing sounds fairly reasonable.

so on one hand, i was right.

on the other hand, it was through sheer luck;)

387 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:14:57pm

re: #372 HoosierHoops

Looking for a good movie..Hope today finds you well

Finer than a frog's hair split three ways!

388 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:15:12pm

re: #375 brookly red

OK so I pushed the button... now what?

Duck and kiss your ass goodbye.

389 Vidiotic  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:16:12pm

re: #27 Cato the Elder

But does it need to be a law? Common sense means that a very heavy accent would preclude you from teaching some language studies. Has this caused problems in the past? Has it killed or hurt someone?

390 Digital Display  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:16:27pm

re: #380 Aceofwhat?

theater or dvd? and what genre?

I have a thousand channels...The only movie I can find during the day is Saturday Night Fever..Never seen it before...Kind of sucks...I'm 2 seconds away from picking up the remote and changing it to something on demand

391 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:16:34pm

re: #384 ~Fianna

I know that the European education systems tend to be better at introducing early language study to kids than the American schools often are.

When we were in Portugal, almost everyone around my age and younger spoke English fairly well. And would apologize profusely for how badly they spoke it, even though their grasp of my language is light-years ahead of my grasp of theirs. Yes, they got some little things wrong, but they were 100% understandable and we could communicate just fine.

We teach foreign languages, but for the most part, have no intention of producing people who can speak those languages. It's sort of a stupid use of resources.

392 Quant  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:16:45pm

re: #342 ~Fianna
Thanks for the video, I hadn't seen it before. It brings back memories of very gloomy English classes. :-)

393 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:17:01pm

re: #382 Lidane

Ha! That's awesome.

This was during the peak Bush paranoia years...Orange alerts, yellow alerts, orange alerts. So the American flag papers became a great way to meet people at concerts...I'd say, "Care to burn the flag with me?"

394 brookly red  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:17:03pm

re: #388 MandyManners

Duck and kiss your ass goodbye.

I don't hear any thing, I got time for a beer & a sm...

395 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:17:09pm

re: #377 darthstar

Try cricket bat versus buttocks.

Thank you sir, may I have another?

396 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:17:13pm

re: #384 ~Fianna

I know that the European education systems tend to be better at introducing early language study to kids than the American schools often are.

When we were in Portugal, almost everyone around my age and younger spoke English fairly well. And would apologize profusely for how badly they spoke it, even though their grasp of my language is light-years ahead of my grasp of theirs. Yes, they got some little things wrong, but they were 100% understandable and we could communicate just fine.

it's so true. i came back far ahead of my peers, sadly, in many subjects.

397 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:17:51pm

re: #385 MandyManners

Belgium's not finding it's dual-language status easy to govern.

lots of unfortunate stuff going on there right now.

398 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:17:53pm

Okay...got a candidate coming in in a little bit...need to do some prep-work before the interview.

Play nice, everyone.

399 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:17:57pm

re: #357 tnguitarist

The first time I ever heard youin was in Sweetwater.

Well, there's a ridge separating Pikeville from Dayton and Dayton's not that far from Sweetwater, so it's most likely a regional thing I had backwards in my head.

400 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:19:30pm

So, OT:

I finished my literary translation for the Goethe Institut this morning at five.

Went to sleep, or tried to, what with the usual sweats over "what did I miss?" and "how might I have gotten that wrong?"

Wake up this early afternoon to find a post-translation request timestamped 12:41 asking me to do another three-page translation of an award citation the author just got for a literary prize. In time for her presentation tonight at the Boston GI at 7:30.

Avoiding doing that right now by farting around with you guys. Because I'm thinking of avoiding doing it altogether. I'll just pretend I never checked my email. The extra money is negligible, and dammit, I was up till dawn doing the real work.

Clients. Can't live with 'em, can't kill 'em.

401 Quant  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:19:36pm

re: #329 Quant

I've had an English teacher who sounded a bit like Marvin the paranoid android.


Obviously, he didn't do a very good job! Should have been "I had"!

402 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:19:52pm

re: #390 HoosierHoops

I have a thousand channels...The only movie I can find during the day is Saturday Night Fever..Never seen it before...Kind of sucks...I'm 2 seconds away from picking up the remote and changing it to something on demand

have you seen inglorious basterds yet?

403 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:19:59pm

re: #391 SanFranciscoZionist

We teach foreign languages, but for the most part, have no intention of producing people who can speak those languages. It's sort of a stupid use of resources.

Hi...

I just got here... looking over this thread and the subject matter. This problem could be easily solved if we mandated that all students and teachers be fluent in Spanish and English. And the amount of money we would save would be enormous. We wouldn't need duplicate forms for this or that, we could publish them in what ever language the state or federal government suggested, if we dialed a number and got a automatic voice systems speaking in Spanish, we would not be confused by having to hit certain numbers or delve through a myriad of menus to get to hear something in English and it wouldn't matter if marketing material is in English or Spanish, a whole area could be covered by the predominant language of the region.

Really easy to solve.

404 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:20:01pm

re: #373 darthstar

Have I told you your my new best friend?

405 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:20:15pm

re: #394 brookly red

I don't hear any thing, I got time for a beer & a sm...

RIP, brooly red. He was a Lizard among Lizards.

406 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:20:33pm

re: #397 Aceofwhat?

The data plates on my ex-NATO LandRover are in Walloon and Flemish. The Alabama DMV took my word on the translation.

407 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:20:34pm

re: #402 Aceofwhat?

have you seen inglorious basterds yet?

He's probably tired of us.

408 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:20:47pm

re: #397 Aceofwhat?

lots of unfortunate stuff going on there right now.

IIRC, this is not the first time the government has collapsed due to the language issue.

409 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:20:58pm

re: #379 SanFranciscoZionist

More info. What she's describing sounds fairly reasonable.

I had a feeling from the bit Charles quoted that it might be.

A few people here owe me an apology.

Beer accepted.

410 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:21:52pm

re: #403 Walter L. Newton

Hi...

I just got here... looking over this thread and the subject matter. This problem could be easily solved if we mandated that all students and teachers be fluent in Spanish and English. And the amount of money we would save would be enormous. We wouldn't need duplicate forms for this or that, we could publish them in what ever language the state or federal government suggested, if we dialed a number and got a automatic voice systems speaking in Spanish, we would not be confused by having to hit certain numbers or delve through a myriad of menus to get to hear something in English and it wouldn't matter if marketing material is in English or Spanish, a whole area could be covered by the predominant language of the region.

Really easy to solve.

Walter, I mean this in the nicest possible way, but chill out.

411 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:22:39pm

re: #400 Cato the Elder

Is that the train-in tunnel translation? Do you get to negotiate subtleties with the author(ess)?

412 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:22:49pm

re: #391 SanFranciscoZionist

We teach foreign languages, but for the most part, have no intention of producing people who can speak those languages. It's sort of a stupid use of resources.

*nod* In order to get my undergraduate degree, I was required to take 2 semesters of a foreign language. WTH is 2 semesters going to really do for me? Like I said, I speak/write French like a 5 year old. I'm hoping that it'll be fine for the vacation we're planning on for later this year... but I can't in any way shape or form actually _speak_ French, unless being able to go in to someone's house and say "c'est un table" counts as "speaking"

FWIW, I think that English has a certain mystique for Europeans. A lot of pop music and other pop culture things are in English, so there's both exposure and incentive.

Funniest thing we ever say was Idolos Portugese (basically Portugese Idol) doing a Michael Jackson night. Billie Jean being sung where the singer has absolutely no understanding of the context of the song is funny as hell.

413 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:22:56pm

re: #410 SanFranciscoZionist

I think the kids are saying chillax.

414 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:23:17pm

re: #379 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, except we still need more info.

How does one fairly draw the line on grammatical mistakes? Hardly anyone speaks English perfectly according to the rules of grammar. Quick: Give me an example of the pluperfect and the future subjunctive. Is it enough to toss out a teacher because he or she routinely misuses the verb "to be?"

Without an actual objective assessment criteria-- which would be difficult, for language-- this is not a very useful thing.

415 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:23:26pm

re: #399 Jeff In Ohio

Well, there's a ridge separating Pikeville from Dayton and Dayton's not that far from Sweetwater, so it's most likely a regional thing I had backwards in my head.

Right in that area is the fuzzy line between the two. West Tennessee is its own area, too. There's a reason we have three stars on our flag!

416 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:23:36pm

re: #409 Cato the Elder

I had a feeling from the bit Charles quoted that it might be.

A few people here owe me an apology.

Beer accepted.

I must say, though, that the ethnic studies bill sounds hilarious, unless some really weird stuff has been going down in Arizona classrooms. I like the part where they say that this bill can't ban performance-based tracking that might tend to concentrate one ethnic group in a particular class.

417 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:23:36pm

re: #392 Quant

Thanks for the video, I hadn't seen it before. It brings back memories of very gloomy English classes. :-)

There's just something so sad.. and so absolutely Marvin about that song.

418 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:23:54pm

re: #410 SanFranciscoZionist

Walter, I mean this in the nicest possible way, but chill out.

I understand your pain.

419 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:24:59pm

re: #413 Jeff In Ohio

I think the kids are saying chillax.

My friend used the word "Chillax" in his speech at my brother's wedding. Actually, it was "Chillaxin". About three-quarters of the audience had no clue what he meant.

420 Digital Display  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:25:06pm

re: #402 Aceofwhat?

have you seen inglorious basterds yet?

Ah hell..I just checked on-Demand.. Crazy heart is available...
I'm renting it right now!
See you guys in awhile!

421 freetoken  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:25:37pm

Looks like the Governor of VA has saved his state from Jesus-less chaplains:

Virginia Governor Restores Jesus-Prayers by Police Chaplains

The Governor of Virginia Bob McDonnell has restored the rights of six State Police Chaplains to pray publicly "in Jesus name," reversing the policy of his predecessor Governor Tim Kaine who forced the chaplains to deny Christ or resign from their jobs.

"This victory comes after our two-year campaign for Jesus name," said Chaplain Klingenschmitt, who led a 1,000 person rally outside the Governor's mansion in 2008, then submitted up to 15,000 petitions to reinstate the chaplains jobs and free speech.

"We faxed voter guides to 2300+ Virginia pastors last summer, comparing Bob McDonnell, who campaigned for chaplains rights to pray in Jesus name, to his opponent Creigh Deeds who voted against Jesus prayers in the Senate. Those pastors helped us move the polls from 47-44% before our faxes, to the 59-41% victory for McDonnell on election day, because of this issue."

Heh, at least he is a politician who keeps his words!

422 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:25:39pm

re: #408 MandyManners

IIRC, this is not the first time the government has collapsed due to the language issue.

it's more than just the language, but the language is definitely a part. i think that it's generally true to say that one particular recurring theme in multi-lingual countries is the tendency towards polarization.

423 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:25:40pm

Arizona hastily changes race-based part of immigration law
By Yael T. Abouhalkah, Kansas City Star Editorial Page columnist

It appears Kris Kobach wasn't careful enough in trying to prevent the racial profiling that will result from Arizona's new immigration law he helped write.

On Thursday the Arizona legislature rushed through last-minute changes to a law already signed by Gov. Jan Brewer. The changes were aimed at quelling furor over one aspect of the law, that states race can't be "solely" used by police as they try to hunt down illegal immigrants.

Critics correctly pointed out that race could still be a factor in enforcing the law, which would lead to racial profiling.

But wait a minute. That's something Kobach -- a law professor at the University of Missouri-Kansas City -- has specifically claimed was not part of the law he helped craft.

Alas, Arizona legislators ended up finding out they should have read the law they passed a little more carefully.

The change passed Thursday, of course, won't quell the furor over the effect of the law on Arizona or its many residents who aren't white.

Indeed, if Kobach and other writers weren't careful enough to write a reasonable law when it came to racial profiling, what other legal problems are buried in it?

We'll be finding that out in the weeks to come, as more people pull at the threads of the law supposedly so carefully woven by Kobach and his cohorts.

424 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:26:12pm

re: #400 Cato the Elder

Can you charge a premium for the very short notice?
Might make it big enough to make it worth your while...

425 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:26:12pm

re: #409 Cato the Elder

from the article

some principals and administrators are concerned that the standards for removal are arbitrary

Not so fast.

426 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:26:13pm

re: #412 ~Fianna

*nod* In order to get my undergraduate degree, I was required to take 2 semesters of a foreign language. WTH is 2 semesters going to really do for me? Like I said, I speak/write French like a 5 year old. I'm hoping that it'll be fine for the vacation we're planning on for later this year... but I can't in any way shape or form actually _speak_ French, unless being able to go in to someone's house and say "c'est un table" counts as "speaking"

FWIW, I think that English has a certain mystique for Europeans. A lot of pop music and other pop culture things are in English, so there's both exposure and incentive.

Funniest thing we ever say was Idolos Portugese (basically Portugese Idol) doing a Michael Jackson night. Billie Jean being sung where the singer has absolutely no understanding of the context of the song is funny as hell.

We used to party heavily with our Italian neighbors and a Spanish-speaking USAF stationed there. My kid's teacher said I speak "Desperanto".

427 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:26:20pm

re: #396 Aceofwhat?

it's so true. i came back far ahead of my peers, sadly, in many subjects.

One of my electronics professors grew up in Martinique. He came to the US for college, and got to skip on the undergraduate calculus sequence that was required because he'd already been taught everything up to differential equations in high school. He wound up opting to re-take Calculus III so that he could get a feel for being taught math in English before going on to new material.

That just blew my mind. I got to Algebra II in High School. And I went to a private school that has a really good reputation.

428 charlz  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:27:12pm

re: #412 ~Fianna

Funniest thing we ever say was Idolos Portugese (basically Portugese Idol) doing a Michael Jackson night. Billie Jean being sung where the singer has absolutely no understanding of the context of the song is funny as hell.

In a German hotel a few years ago I turned on the TV: "The Monkees" dubbed in German. I had to turn it off 'cause I couldn't breathe from laughing so hard.

429 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:27:17pm

re: #415 tnguitarist

Right in that area is the fuzzy line between the two. West Tennessee is its own area, too. There's a reason we have three stars on our flag!

Ahhh, I thought one was for Jimmy Rodgers, one was for Lester Flatt and one was for Elvis.

430 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:27:56pm

re: #412 ~Fianna


FWIW, I think that English has a certain mystique for Europeans. A lot of pop music and other pop culture things are in English, so there's both exposure and incentive.

In addition to the larger market possibilities for english songs, english is usually a much more flexible platform for the writing of lyrics, which is a very interesting little topic in its own right...

431 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:28:05pm

re: #419 Obdicut

My friend used the word "Chillax" in his speech at my brother's wedding. Actually, it was "Chillaxin". About three-quarters of the audience had no clue what he meant.

I say it to my 12 year old and she gets pissed. Not nearly as pissed when I tell her I invented OMG.

432 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:28:06pm

re: #423 Gus 802

Awesome. That bill is such a clusterfuck that even its supporters are lying about it.

433 webevintage  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:28:12pm

re: #421 freetoken

Looks like the Governor of VA has saved his state from Jesus-less chaplains:

Virginia Governor Restores Jesus-Prayers by Police Chaplains
Heh, at least he is a politician who keeps his words!

Jesus.

434 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:28:59pm

re: #409 Cato the Elder

I had a feeling from the bit Charles quoted that it might be.

A few people here owe me an apology.

Beer accepted.

It's the same thing as with the immigration law. The law itself might be reasonable and even of good intent... however, they aren't doing it with good intentions and it will not be applied with anything that resembles reason.

435 zora  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:29:25pm

[Link: mediamattersaction.org...]

Rep. Ted Poe Compares Immigrants To Grasshoppers

Poe: "Now it seems to me that if we are so advanced with technology and manpower and competence that we can capture illegal grasshoppers from Brazil, in the holds of ships that are in a little small place in Port Arthur, Texas on the Sabine River. Sabin River, madam speaker, is the river that separates Texas from Louisiana. If we're able to do that as a country, how come we can't capture the thousands of people that cross the border everyday on the southern border of the United States? You know they're a little bigger than grasshoppers and they should be able to be captured easier.

436 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:29:45pm

re: #415 tnguitarist

Right in that area is the fuzzy line between the two. West Tennessee is its own area, too. There's a reason we have three stars on our flag!

Anything west of the Tennessee River is West Tennessee. What's the dividing line between Middle and East? The time zone?

437 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:29:58pm

re: #429 Jeff In Ohio

Ahhh, I thought one was for Jimmy Rodgers Dolly Parton, one was for Lester Flatt and one was for Elvis.


ftfy

438 PAUL_MACDONALD  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:30:31pm

re: #346 Aceofwhat?

no, we're not missing that. and i like how your example is one of a "slight" foreign accent. you really think this is about slight accents, regardless of one's position on the subject?

do you have an actual example handy?

Um, yes. That's exactly what this is. Who are these unqualified teachers in Arizona teaching the kids English? Did they sneak across the border, find all the various cleaning and fruit picking jobs filled by other illegals and decide to scam their way into the Arizona Dept. of education?

Surely, we can find this myriad of crappy, improperly accented educators. Must be a problem, and that's why they need the law. There are no ulterior motives at play.

My mother will be pleased to know that she's not an example of a qualified teacher of a second language who isn't also a native speaker. I would say that it is up to those making the claim of "harm" to provide the data. Specifically, the data on Arizona that necessitated this law. Must be a mountain of it.

439 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:31:40pm

re: #422 Aceofwhat?

it's more than just the language, but the language is definitely a part. i think that it's generally true to say that one particular recurring theme in multi-lingual countries is the tendency towards polarization.

I dated a guy from Belgium in college. His mother was a Walloon and his father was a Flem. The Flemish grandfather was a hard-core Nazi who was shot right after the war and the Walloon grandfather was a Partisan (or whatever they called those who opposed the Nazis).

440 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:31:53pm

re: #435 zora

[Link: mediamattersaction.org...]

Rep. Ted Poe Compares Immigrants To Grasshoppers

Rep. Ted Poe (Republican - TX)

Controversies

On May 7, 2007, while speaking on the floor of the house, Poe used a quote from Civil War Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest when describing the military strategy that Poe felt the United States should have followed in Iraq. Forrest's maxim was to: “Git thar furstest with the mostest.” The controversy lies in the personal history of General Forrest; after his military duty was over, he became the first Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan (though soon after called for the Klan to disband). Some critics have stated that despite quoting Forrest for a discussion on military strategy and not on race relations, it was still highly inappropriate for Poe to quote such a divisive figure.

On June 7, 2009, Poe signed on as a co-sponsor of H.R. 1503, the bill introduced as a reaction to conspiracy theories which claimed that U.S. President Barack Obama is not a natural born U.S. citizen.[28] On July 23, 2009, he appeared on CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight in which he claimed that Certifications of Live Birth issued by Hawaii State Department of Health cannot be used to obtain a U.S. passport, which is untrue. His support of H.R. 1503 and public advocacy for it earned him a negative editorial in the Houston Chronicle.

441 freetoken  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:32:20pm

Looks like The Sarah got her scalp:

Jury convicts on 2 charges in Palin e-mail hacking

A federal jury has convicted a former Tennessee college student of two charges in the hacking of Sarah Palin's e-mail account.

442 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:32:36pm

re: #437 tnguitarist

ftfy

Yeah, Jimmy's a Mississippi boy.

443 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:32:44pm

re: #427 ~Fianna

One of my electronics professors grew up in Martinique. He came to the US for college, and got to skip on the undergraduate calculus sequence that was required because he'd already been taught everything up to differential equations in high school. He wound up opting to re-take Calculus III so that he could get a feel for being taught math in English before going on to new material.

That just blew my mind. I got to Algebra II in High School. And I went to a private school that has a really good reputation.

gets even weirder when you realize that on the whole, our universities are better.

i tested out of undergrad calc, too, but you can do that by nailing the AP test for BC Calculus (if it's still called that...there was AB and BC Calc at my school)

444 freetoken  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:33:09pm

No Facebook entry by The Sarah on why it was ok to steal email from EAU/CRU but not from her, btw.

445 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:33:09pm

re: #438 PAUL_MACDONALD

Um, yes. That's exactly what this is. Who are these unqualified teachers in Arizona teaching the kids English? Did they sneak across the border, find all the various cleaning and fruit picking jobs filled by other illegals and decide to scam their way into the Arizona Dept. of education?

Surely, we can find this myriad of crappy, improperly accented educators. Must be a problem, and that's why they need the law. There are no ulterior motives at play.

My mother will be pleased to know that she's not an example of a qualified teacher of a second language who isn't also a native speaker. I would say that it is up to those making the claim of "harm" to provide the data. Specifically, the data on Arizona that necessitated this law. Must be a mountain of it.

Data? We don't need no steenking data.

446 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:33:14pm

re: #436 MandyManners

Anything west of the Tennessee River is West Tennessee. What's the dividing line between Middle and East? The time zone?

Kinda.

447 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:33:34pm

re: #441 freetoken

Looks like The Sarah got her scalp:

Jury convicts on 2 charges in Palin e-mail hacking

Ummm...the State of Tennessee got the scalp.

448 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:34:19pm

re: #438 PAUL_MACDONALD

Um, yes. That's exactly what this is. Who are these unqualified teachers in Arizona teaching the kids English? Did they sneak across the border, find all the various cleaning and fruit picking jobs filled by other illegals and decide to scam their way into the Arizona Dept. of education?

Surely, we can find this myriad of crappy, improperly accented educators. Must be a problem, and that's why they need the law. There are no ulterior motives at play.

My mother will be pleased to know that she's not an example of a qualified teacher of a second language who isn't also a native speaker. I would say that it is up to those making the claim of "harm" to provide the data. Specifically, the data on Arizona that necessitated this law. Must be a mountain of it.

AceofWhat... I guess the actual answer to your question... "do you have an actual example handy..." was NO.

449 freetoken  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:34:25pm

re: #447 MandyManners

Yes, but she was all too happy to show up in person to testify and get the news-clips.

450 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:34:31pm

Coral Ridge Exposes America's Descent into Socialism
Submitted by Kyle on April 30, 2010 - 12:06pm

From Right Wing Watch.

Via Joe.My.God we get this preview of Coral Ridge Ministries' latest "documentary" about how President Obama is turning America into a socialist nation, featuring the likes of Harry Jackson, Wendy Wright, David Horowitz, Al Mohler, Steve Forbes, and Michele Bachmann:

451 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:34:57pm

re: #439 MandyManners

I dated a guy from Belgium in college. His mother was a Walloon and his father was a Flem. The Flemish grandfather was a hard-core Nazi who was shot right after the war and the Walloon grandfather was a Partisan (or whatever they called those who opposed the Nazis).

...wow...

452 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:35:26pm

Ralph Reed Back in the Right's Good Graces
Submitted by Kyle on April 30, 2010 - 11:41am

I think it is safe to assume that Ralph Reed's underhanded work exploiting his Religious Right allies for the benefit of Jack Abramoff's clients' gambling interests has been completely forgiven by various leaders of the very movement he sought to exploit.

In recent weeks, Reed has used his Faith and Freedom Coalition to host meetings that included the likes of Richard Land and Rep. Marsha Blackburn and rub shoulders with Rep. Michele Bachmann, as he travels the country presenting his plans to gain control of House, Senate, and state legislatures though his new, more strident "Christian Coalition on steroids".

And this effort appears to be chugging along, as he was just in Texas, Pennsylvania, and Missouri where he picked up the support of Phyllis Schlafly, Rick Santorum, and Sen. Jim Talent...

453 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:35:32pm

re: #446 tnguitarist

Kinda.

The geographical changes you see driving from Memphis to Johnson City are amazing.

454 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:35:57pm

re: #449 freetoken

Yes, but she was all too happy to show up in person to testify and get the news-clips.

So? She was the victim.

455 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:36:00pm

re: #436 MandyManners

Anything west of the Tennessee River is West Tennessee. What's the dividing line between Middle and East? The time zone?

So north Knoxville is western Tn and south Knoxville is east? Or am I backwards again?

456 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:36:02pm

re: #438 PAUL_MACDONALD

Um, yes. That's exactly what this is. Who are these unqualified teachers in Arizona teaching the kids English? Did they sneak across the border, find all the various cleaning and fruit picking jobs filled by other illegals and decide to scam their way into the Arizona Dept. of education?

i dunno. why are you asking me? i didn't say i supported the thing. but it's not about a slight accent. see #379 by SFZ.

you owe me a beer.

457 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:36:39pm

re: #448 Walter L. Newton

AceofWhat... I guess the actual answer to your question... "do you have an actual example handy..." was NO.

heh. and "you're right". but i won't hang my hat on it/

458 webevintage  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:37:03pm

Wow, must be a cold day in hell.
I agree with Megan McArdle:
[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]

If it's legitimate to do it to them, than it's equally legitimate to do it to you, if for nothing else than the benefits of social cohesion.

If, however, this law could not possibly be passed if it affected the majority, because it's far too intrusive and would result in a lot of people passing unhappy hours in jail or waiting by the side of the road while the police checked their ID with immigration . . . well, then, it's probably not something we should be doing to other people, either. There are exceptions. But I don't think the many problems caused by immigration rise to that level of emergency.

459 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:37:27pm

re: #435 zora

[Link: mediamattersaction.org...]

Rep. Ted Poe Compares Immigrants To Grasshoppers

You did see the poster of the big green grasshopper he used as a visual aid?

460 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:37:28pm

re: #440 Gus 802

Nathan Bedford Forrest was responsible for an atrocity against Federal troops at Ft. Pillow. Some years ago his portrait still hung in the officer's club at Ft. Campbell.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

461 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:37:30pm

re: #457 Aceofwhat?

heh. and "you're right". but i won't hang my hat on it/

I did it for you... you owe me one.

462 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:37:33pm

re: #451 Aceofwhat?

...wow...

He had a photograph of his paternal gandfather in his uniform. Cold eyes.

His parents wound up divorcing when his mom ran off with a professor and established a bakery.

463 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:37:52pm

re: #456 Aceofwhat?

Sure, it can be about a slight accent, since there is no actual standard.

464 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:38:07pm

re: #455 Jeff In Ohio

So north Knoxville is western Tn and south Knoxville is east? Or am I backwards again?

Knoxville is in East Tennessee.

465 zora  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:38:22pm

re: #459 Stanley Sea

i did.

466 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:39:05pm

re: #464 MandyManners

Knoxville is in East Tennessee.

But it's bisected by the Tennessee River.

467 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:39:10pm

re: #453 MandyManners

It really is. There is plenty to not like about this state, but its beauty is not one of them.

468 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:39:30pm

re: #461 Walter L. Newton

I did it for you... you owe me one.

call in the favor when you need it and i'll be there for you.

(why do i have the feeling i just signed up for an argument with LVQ;)

469 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:39:37pm

re: #430 Aceofwhat?

In addition to the larger market possibilities for english songs, english is usually a much more flexible platform for the writing of lyrics, which is a very interesting little topic in its own right...

Also, it's something of a lingua franca. When we were in cafes, chatting with people, we got in to a conversation with a group of French, Italians and Germans who were all speaking English because it was the only language that they had in common.

I never went anywhere on public transit that didn't have signage and announcements in English along with the local language.

470 webevintage  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:39:56pm

re: #441 freetoken

Looks like The Sarah got her scalp:

Jury convicts on 2 charges in Palin e-mail hacking

Now Sarah can repeat what she said a few weeks ago about how people should pay the consequences of their bad actions...as long as those "people" happen to be someone other then her children.

471 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:40:21pm

re: #455 Jeff In Ohio

So north Knoxville is western Tn and south Knoxville is east? Or am I backwards again?

Knoxville is East, but culturally it's an island.

472 freetoken  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:40:26pm

Montana residents protest showing of Nazi film

Hundreds of Montana residents crowded around a library to protest a pro-Nazi film being shown by a white separatist group called Kalispell Pioneer Little Europe.

The Kalispell residents held signs reading "No Neo-Nazis," and "No Hate in My Backyard," on Thursday to protest the showing of "Epic: The Story of the Waffen SS," which takes an admiring view of the Nazis' combat arm during World War II.

It was the second film shown at the Flathead County Library by Karl Gharst, who on March 29 screened a movie debating whether the Jewish Holocaust really occurred. He says he plans to show another film, "The Truth Behind the Gates of Auschwitz," on May 29, and he plans other events for the summer.

The Public Library - home to who knows what, eh? Since Beck got his educatin' at the public library, maybe he should scurry up to Kalispell to learn the difference between Nazism and Socialism.

473 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:40:30pm

re: #463 Obdicut

Sure, it can be about a slight accent, since there is no actual standard.

see #379, link to the WaPo

474 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:40:32pm

re: #447 MandyManners

Ummm...the State of Tennessee got the scalp.

No, it was the Feds.

475 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:41:00pm

re: #469 ~Fianna

Also, it's something of a lingua franca. When we were in cafes, chatting with people, we got in to a conversation with a group of French, Italians and Germans who were all speaking English because it was the only language that they had in common.

I never went anywhere on public transit that didn't have signage and announcements in English along with the local language.

see, now you're making me miss it again-

476 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:41:13pm

re: #435 zora

[Link: mediamattersaction.org...]

Rep. Ted Poe Compares Immigrants To Grasshoppers

Good grief! Does he realize that we control these grasshoppers by killing them with poison gas?

Maybe he does.

477 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:41:30pm

re: #473 Aceofwhat?

I saw it. I read it. I quoted from it.

Here is the quote again:


The issue here is how to determine which teachers really should be in the classroom and which ones shouldn’t be. Speech that one child can’t understand could be completely comprehensible to most of the students.

How does one fairly draw the line on grammatical mistakes? Hardly anyone speaks English perfectly according to the rules of grammar. Quick: Give me an example of the pluperfect and the future subjunctive. Is it enough to toss out a teacher because he or she routinely misuses the verb "to be?"

478 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:41:43pm

re: #466 Jeff In Ohio

But it's bisected by the Tennessee River.

Knoxville is east of the time zone.

479 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:41:59pm

re: #472 freetoken

Montana residents protest showing of Nazi film

The Public Library - home to who knows what, eh? Since Beck got his educatin' at the public library, maybe he should scurry up to Kalispell to learn the difference between Nazism and Socialism.

How can they get away with using tax payer supported public facilities to promote hate speech?

480 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:42:20pm

re: #467 tnguitarist

It really is. There is plenty to not like about this state, but its beauty is not one of them.

In the Fall, it looks as if God has spread his quilt upon the Earth.

481 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:43:00pm

re: #471 tnguitarist

Knoxville is East, but culturally it's an island.

I prefer the Tri-Cities area.

482 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:43:01pm

re: #476 Shiplord Kirel

Good grief! Does he realize that we control these grasshoppers by killing them with poison gas?

Maybe he does.

Here's the video of Rep. Ted Poe (Republican - TX)

He has an accent.

483 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:43:07pm

re: #477 Obdicut

I saw it. I read it. I quoted from it.

Here is the quote again:

i'm talking about accents. so was Cato. stay on target...stay on target...

School districts in Arizona are under orders from the state's Department of Education to remove from classrooms teachers who speak English with a very heavy accent or whose speech is ungrammatical.

484 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:43:18pm

re: #480 MandyManners

Does God launder his quilt often? Because otherwise, gross.

485 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:43:30pm

re: #443 Aceofwhat?

gets even weirder when you realize that on the whole, our universities are better.

i tested out of undergrad calc, too, but you can do that by nailing the AP test for BC Calculus (if it's still called that...there was AB and BC Calc at my school)

AP isn't the required curricula here, though.

It is odd that our universities do tend to be better, but our secondary schooling is so much worse.

486 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:43:32pm

re: #466 Jeff In Ohio

But it's bisected by the Tennessee River.

I think she was referring to the western half of the river. It dips down into Alabama the returns.

487 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:43:55pm

re: #474 Stanley Sea

No, it was the Feds.

Oopsie.

I wonder if he'll appeal.

488 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:44:06pm

re: #483 Aceofwhat?


Okay, Ace. Show me the standard for the accents, then.

You know that 'stay on target' stuff is annoying, right?

489 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:44:13pm

re: #481 MandyManners

I prefer the Tri-Cities area.

I lived up that way for a while. Morristown.

490 freetoken  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:44:40pm

re: #479 Walter L. Newton

Likely because the 1st Amendment allows Gharst to air his views.

491 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:44:43pm

re: #486 tnguitarist

the=then. Oy.

492 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:44:56pm

re: #484 Obdicut

Does God launder his quilt often? Because otherwise, gross.

*ahem*

493 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:44:58pm

re: #478 MandyManners

Knoxville is east of the time zone.

I knowed. I was joking.

494 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:45:01pm

re: #485 ~Fianna

We have a great state school system. Oh noes, socialism.

495 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:45:06pm

Anti-Immigration Group: Mexicans Want To Kill 'Gringos'

In another sign of the heightened tensions surrounding illegal immigration in Arizona, a far-right anti-immigration group is stoking fears of violent Mexicans out to murder white people -- and invoking hard-line sheriff Joe Arpaio -- in a bid to raise money. The group's leader tells TPMmuckraker that in the wake of Arizona's draconian new immigration law, "the irresistible force of globalism and the Mexican invasion is about to meet the immovable object of American sovereignty."

A fundraising flyer sent this month by the American Border Patrol -- a group of anti-immigration advocates who conduct airplane missions to monitor the Arizona-Mexico border -- leads with an incendiary quote attributed to Jose Angel Gutierrez, the founder of La Raza: "We have got to eliminate the gringo. And what I mean is, if worse comes to worst, we have got to kill him." Above the quote is a picture of an immigrants rights protest, including a prominent banner declaring: "We Are Indigenous, The Only Owners Of This Continent." (See the flyer here.)

496 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:45:26pm

re: #411 Decatur Deb

Is that the train-in tunnel translation? Do you get to negotiate subtleties with the author(ess)?

Actually, yes.

A rare occurrence, but I know her personally. The reason I didn't finish until early this morning was because it took me until then to get everything cleared up with her (damn those time zones!)

She was able to work through everything I didn't get and listen to me read the whole thing to her on the phone. Then gave me a seal of approval and a promise of the best dinner Berlin has to offer next time I'm there.

Her work is extremely clear, on the one hand, and extremely, densely poetic prose on the other. For instance: recurring words used in a different sense each time they occur. Puns. Neologisms. Proustian sentences. Displacements. Grammar that would give someone who hadn't lived for a decade in Germany and worked as an illegal immigrant (I did) conniptions.

So I think, as far as the last-minute request from the director of the Goethe Institut goes, I'm going to pretend I never saw it. My honorarium, such as it is, is far outweighed by the author's praise.

Here's another sample of the text:

And I read, because I can’t fall asleep, the stories of the region, and listen to the voice of a colleague who once upon a time warned me against this hermitting business. At a party in the bishop’s hall in the castle. We had been drinking, grew bright red in the face, when he suddenly dropped his voice and started talking about the sacristan who one night comes by my church and pauses, because he hears noises from inside, as if someone was playing at ninepins. The sacristan goes to report to the priest, who laughs at him. The following night, the same game, the sacristan on the way home, inside the church the ninepins, he goes back to the priest, who starts to think it’s alarming. In the third night the priest goes himself, bends over, looks through the keyhole and sees twelve men dressed in black in the chancel. At the stroke of one the ninepin brothers disappear.

In the fourth night, back to the keyhole: Inside, the twelve men with a coffin, inside the coffin pins and balls, the balls skulls, the pins bones. Comes the fifth night, when sacristan and priest take their posts in the chancel of the church inside a circle of sanctified chalk, flanked by the local saints, three freshly-hallowed candles in their hands. At the stroke of twelve the ninepin brothers appear. What business do you have in my church? cries the priest. We are the twelve unjust judges, the bowlers cry back in unison. We played a false game, burned innocents as witches and buried them in unhallowed ground. For that, we must bowl heads at bones until the Last Day, unless it be that one would save us. If that’s all it is, that I can do, as God is my witness! cries the priest. Dig up the innocents from the false earth and lay them to rest in the sanctified graveyard. Since then it is as quiet as death in the church.

497 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:45:55pm

re: #489 tnguitarist

I lived up that way for a while. Morristown.

I worked in Morristown at my first job... office boy for the headquarters of Beneficial Finance... 1970-72. Started there two days after I graduated high school.

498 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:46:03pm

re: #486 tnguitarist

I think she was referring to the western half of the river. It dips down into Alabama the returns.

They speak English there.


499 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:46:26pm

re: #493 Jeff In Ohio

I knowed. I was joking.

Yew wuz?

500 freetoken  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:46:29pm

McCain gets to flex his machismo in this interview (ahem...) on Newsmax:

Video: McCain: Proud To Be a Superpower

Now will the Arizonan Republicans vote for him?

501 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:46:46pm

re: #475 Aceofwhat?

see, now you're making me miss it again-

I'm about ready to move, tbh.

I love the feel of the European cities I've been in.

502 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:47:05pm

re: #481 MandyManners

I prefer the Tri-Cities area.

Use to play a place up in Johnson City a bunch. Damn I can't remember the name. Nice area. The drive from Asheville through Johnson City down through Kentucky is pretty spectacular. Just not at 3am in the fog.

503 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:47:06pm

re: #489 tnguitarist

I lived up that way for a while. Morristown.

Remember the sign outside of Unicoi? Or, was that a rural myth?

504 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:47:06pm

re: #482 Gus 802

Here's the video of Rep. Ted Poe (Republican - TX)


[Video]He has an accent.

His accent's a fake. There is even a term for it here in Texas, the "poli-drawl," an exaggerated drawl originally used by politicians in a mistaken attempt to sound like plain folk. In recent years, it has become practically a convention among Texas politicians.

505 PAUL_MACDONALD  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:47:16pm

re: #448 Walter L. Newton

AceofWhat... I guess the actual answer to your question... "do you have an actual example handy..." was NO.

Actually, I gave one. My Mother. An actual teacher with an actual accent teaching an actual language that is not actually her first language

Reciprocate with data showing that accented teachers are unable to teach a second language. Better yet, show that this is a huge problem in Arizona and that it merits legislation.

It's a dogwhistle law.

506 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:47:36pm

re: #488 Obdicut

Okay, Ace. Show me the standard for the accents, then.

You know that 'stay on target' stuff is annoying, right?

no, i didn't know. sorry.

but thick accent and faint accent are two different things. whatever the standard is, i accurately described the intent. the intent is not to remove good teachers with faint accents, or that would have been what they wrote.

of course, this bill can be misused. i'm not saying i like it. but we're not talking about faint accents because the bill isn't talking about faint accents.

507 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:48:03pm

re: #499 MandyManners

Yew wuz?

Billy went to school and said
"Durn I growed another head"
Teacher said "it's time you knowed
The word is grew instead of growed"

Shel Silverstein, Where the Sidewalk Ends

508 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:48:27pm

re: #496 Cato the Elder

yikes

509 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:48:44pm

re: #477 Obdicut

I saw it. I read it. I quoted from it.

Here is the quote again:

I'm going to humiliate myself here, I fear, but I'll try this one with out Google:

Pluperfect is the "I have been" construction, yes?

Future subjunctive: "I will have been"

Cato?

510 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:49:06pm

re: #505 PAUL_MACDONALD

Actually, I gave one. My Mother. An actual teacher with an actual accent teaching an actual language that is not actually her first language

how thick is her accent?

511 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:49:08pm

re: #471 tnguitarist

Knoxville is East, but culturally it's an island.

My sister has been in Knoxville since the mid 70's working as a fiber artist. She loves it and I've always had a pretty good time there. WDVX, The Pilot, great bands and a fairly supprotive community, great craft scene. Cool place.

512 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:49:09pm

re: #505 PAUL_MACDONALD

Actually, I gave one. My Mother. An actual teacher with an actual accent teaching an actual language that is not actually her first language

Reciprocate with data showing that accented teachers are unable to teach a second language. Better yet, show that this is a huge problem in Arizona and that it merits legislation.

It's a dogwhistle law.

Anecdotal.

513 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:49:17pm

re: #496 Cato the Elder

Cool. Publication title yet?

514 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:49:23pm

re: #503 MandyManners

Remember the sign outside of Unicoi? Or, was that a rural myth?

Help me out. I only lived there for 2 years.

515 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:49:42pm

re: #502 Jeff In Ohio

Use to play a place up in Johnson City a bunch. Damn I can't remember the name. Nice area. The drive from Asheville through Johnson City down through Kentucky is pretty spectacular. Just not at 3am in the fog.

Or, in the rain.


516 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:50:11pm

re: #503 MandyManners

Remember the sign outside of Unicoi? Or, was that a rural myth?

Are you talking about Morristown NJ?

517 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:50:14pm

re: #499 MandyManners

Yew wuz?

yesm.

518 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:51:50pm

re: #514 tnguitarist

Help me out. I only lived there for 2 years.

Basically, it read "*vulgar word for African-American*, DON'T LET THE SUN SET ON YOU IN UNICOI".

I never saw it but, I heard tale of it.

519 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:52:06pm

re: #516 Walter L. Newton

Are you talking about Morristown NJ?

Tennessee.

520 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:52:22pm

re: #517 Jeff In Ohio

yesm.

Ah, you made me grin.

521 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:52:46pm

re: #303 ~Fianna

Are those anything like boylt eggs?

Exactly the same, I believe.

My NOLA grandmother would say, "burilled" eggs.

That actually is not the exact pronuciation, but it's impossible to spell.

522 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:52:59pm

re: #511 Jeff In Ohio

My sister has been in Knoxville since the mid 70's working as a fiber artist. She loves it and I've always had a pretty good time there. WDVX, The Pilot, great bands and a fairly supprotive community, great craft scene. Cool place.

Great music scene. We used to play there quite often back in the day.

523 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:53:08pm

re: #418 Walter L. Newton

I understand your pain.

Hello, Walter v2.0!

524 PAUL_MACDONALD  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:53:19pm

re: #510 Aceofwhat?

how thick is her accent?

Doesn't matter. Absolutely irrelevant. There is no standard to define "thick" with regards to accents. The law only has one purpose.

525 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:53:23pm

Gotta' git.

526 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:53:28pm

A Letter from Alabama candidate for Governor Tim James
COMMON SENSE FOR ALABAMA ROOTED IN BIBLICAL VALUES

I was blessed to be raised in a family with a deeply religious mother and a father who modeled ethics in business and government. That experience has greatly influenced me regarding the cultural issues of our day. It is my desire that the citizens of Alabama know my position and values on these important issues. Often the answers to life’s most complex issues are found through Common Sense Rooted in Biblical Values.

In 1963, prayer was removed from schools. President Ronald Reagan recognized the danger of this act when he said:

“Our Pledge of Allegiance states that we are ‘one nation under God,’ and our currency bears the motto, ‘In God We Trust.’

The ethics and morals such faith implies are deeply rooted in our national character. Our country embraces these philosophies by design, and we abandon them at our risk. How can we hope to retain our freedom through the generations if we fail to uphold that the belief that our liberty comes from an enduring faith in our Creator?

If we look to the words of the early founders, we see that their aspiration and fervor was to build a nation who would fear and honor Biblical Values.

Thank you for visiting this website to learn more about how you can get involved with the Faith and Family Values Coalition. Together, we can make a difference here in Alabama regarding the issues that matter most to our families and the great State of Alabama. Please pledge your support in bringing Common Sense Rooted in Biblical Values back to Alabama by signing our online petition and encouraging your friends to join us.

You can learn more about my campaign by visiting the Tim James for Governor campaign site.

Thank you,

Tim James

Uh huh.

527 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:53:30pm

re: #504 Shiplord Kirel

His accent's a fake. There is even a term for it here in Texas, the "poli-drawl," an exaggerated drawl originally used by politicians in a mistaken attempt to sound like plain folk. In recent years, it has become practically a convention among Texas politicians.

There's a name for it! :D That's amazing.

528 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:53:33pm

re: #516 Walter L. Newton

Are you talking about Morristown NJ?

Tennessee.

529 prairiefire  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:54:07pm

re: #188 engineer dog

but is the real motivation for this legislation to provide the best possible instruction in english, or is there - gasp! - just perhaps - a hidden agenda? have the arizona legislators suddenly developed a passionate intestest in primary school education? really? does racism have nothing whatsoever to do with it?

A newbie, welcome.

530 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:54:22pm

re: #506 Aceofwhat?

If they don't define what a faint accent vs a strong accent is, then that is absolutely without merit.

And they don't define that.

So my point stands.

531 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:54:32pm

re: #482 Gus 802

One of the more amazing examples of the poli-drawl was a certain well-known local lawyer who decided to run for district attorney a few years ago. He ran some commercials showing him riding across the range on a big stallion, with a voice-over in which he drawled his support for families and conservative ("c'nserf-tive") values. In fact, the man was an immigrant from England who had arrived here at age 24. He was a graduate of the famous
Winchester public school (a "Wickhamist") and spoke with a marginally diluted Oxford accent in private.

532 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:55:29pm

re: #521 reine.de.tout

Exactly the same, I believe.

My NOLA grandmother would say, "burilled" eggs.

That actually is not the exact pronuciation, but it's impossible to spell.

NOLA has some really interesting dialetical patterns. "Make groceries" is one that always makes me want to giggle, even though I know it's a direct translation from the French faire d'

533 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:55:30pm

re: #526 Gus 802

He is well to the left of our rightmost theocrat candidate.

534 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:56:53pm

re: #504 Shiplord Kirel

His accent's a fake. There is even a term for it here in Texas, the "poli-drawl," an exaggerated drawl originally used by politicians in a mistaken attempt to sound like plain folk. In recent years, it has become practically a convention among Texas politicians.

Yeah, but yours is the real thing (heard you once when you called in to Charles during some radio show).

535 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:58:15pm

re: #524 PAUL_MACDONALD

Doesn't matter. Absolutely irrelevant. There is no standard to define "thick" with regards to accents. The law only has one purpose.

i didn't ask what the purpose was. i didn't say i liked the bill. i'm saying that of course your french teacher was good...she sounded like a french teacher.

i disagree that there is no standard with which to define 'thick'. so in your world, someone can be nigh unto incomprehensible and still be a viable english teacher?

riiight.

536 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:58:42pm

Levin think the SWAT Teams are going to take over the oil industry....
Mark Levin Radio Show - Pres Obama "Armed Swat Teams To Inspect Oil Rigs In Gulf"

537 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:59:09pm

Tim James blows the dog whistle.

Alabama is 43rd in Hispanic population or 2.08 percent.

When he speaks about drivers license tests in other languages he is not playing on the fears of Laotians.

538 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 12:59:12pm

re: #515 MandyManners

Nice. Once you get into Kentucky your in the Cumberlands. I love traversing the Cumberland, Blue Ridge and Smokey ranges.

539 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:00:54pm

re: #534 reine.de.tout

Yeah, but yours is the real thing (heard you once when you called in to Charles during some radio show).

Pretty much. It's actually of Ozark origin but is so close to the native Texas accent as to be indistinguishable after a while. The difference is really more in usage than intonation. To me, a burlap bag is a "tow sack" while the locals usually call it a "gunny sack" or (remarkably enough) a "burlap bag."

540 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:02:17pm

re: #536 Killgore Trout

Levin think the SWAT Teams are going to take over the oil industry...
Mark Levin Radio Show - Pres Obama "Armed Swat Teams To Inspect Oil Rigs In Gulf"

[Video]

Mark Levin... Alex Jones...

#
prisonplanet.com %P% infowars.xyz
“SWAT was there because it looked like the ladies were going to break out in a ... the “Department of Interior has announced that they will be sending SWAT ...
www.infowars.xyz/aggregator/sources/2 -
262
4 minutes ago
#
Prisonplanet.com News %P% prisonplanet
Apr 30, 2010 ... “SWAT was there because it looked like the ladies were going to break .... significance and the Department of Interior has announced that ...
prisonplanet.dk/aggregator/sources/2 -
473
7 minutes ago

541 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:03:06pm

re: #530 Obdicut

If they don't define what a faint accent vs a strong accent is, then that is absolutely without merit.

And they don't define that.

So my point stands.

it is not about a faint accent. whether you feel such a thing can be done with consistency is a different point.

we hire people on the basis of how we judge their ability to do a job all the time. my believing that this bill is the wrong way to go about this topic is unrelated to my belief that at some point, people ought to be making judgments about whether a person is fit to teach english.

how thick their accent is will play a part in that judgment. don't substitute poor analysis for good judgment...

542 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:03:16pm
Arizona Grades Teachers on Fluency
State Pushes School Districts to Reassign Instructors With Heavy Accents or Other Shortcomings in Their English

PHOENIX—As the academic year winds down, Creighton School Principal Rosemary Agneessens faces a wrenching decision: what to do with veteran teachers whom the state education department says don't speak English well enough.

The Arizona Department of Education recently began telling school districts that teachers whose spoken English it deems to be heavily accented or ungrammatical must be removed from classes for students still learning English.

[Link: online.wsj.com...]

I have some shocking news for the Arizona B of E: you ALL have thick accents down thuyerr!

543 lawhawk  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:05:47pm

re: #536 Killgore Trout

Wherever could he have gotten that impression?

Mr. Obama said SWAT teams were being dispatched to the Gulf to investigate oil rigs and said his administration is now working to determine the cause of the disaster.

The president promised to deploy "every single available resource" to the area and ordered his disaster and environmental leaders to go. The Navy is sending 66,000 feet of inflatable boom and seven skimming systems, and using its bases in the region as staging areas for the operation.

Might be worth it for CBS News (or the President) to clarify what exactly SWAT is in reference to this case. Is it armed EPA agents, or a rapid reaction group to deal with environmental disasters (it is the latter, though the EPA does have armed enforcement officers). Levin and others are pushing the hyperbole into outrageous outrage territory.

I'm just hoping that the worst case scenarios don't occur and that BP and the government assistance can get the oil spill under control and plug the well (which apparently is leaking from 3 different places).

544 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:05:59pm

re: #522 tnguitarist

Great music scene. We used to play there quite often back in the day.

Me too. Mostly Patrick Sullivans and the Pilot.

545 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:06:00pm

Arizona wins!! Every Mexican gardener that leaves the state will be replaced by three labor lawyers.

546 PAUL_MACDONALD  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:06:00pm

re: #535 Aceofwhat?

i didn't ask what the purpose was. i didn't say i liked the bill. i'm saying that of course your french teacher was good...she sounded like a french teacher.

i disagree that there is no standard with which to define 'thick'. so in your world, someone can be nigh unto incomprehensible and still be a viable english teacher?

riiight.

No fair, changing the parameters. So, I won't let you.

If my Mother taught in Arizona, as opposed to Nevada, she could be removed from her job if someone took a dislike to her. Wait, what? Yes, the intent of the law currently under discussion. No one would, but they COULD.

It's about marginalizing Hispanics. It's not about the thickness of accents (which is entirely subjective). I suspect you know this.

547 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:06:01pm

Btw, I have never heard a native Texan say "you-all" except in jest. The correct pronunciation is "yawl." This is also common in some parts of California. "Chap" for man or guy is a common usage in some parts of both CA and Texas and can be quite startling to outsiders who think of it as a purely British usage.

548 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:06:02pm

re: #536 Killgore Trout

Levin think the SWAT Teams are going to take over the oil industry...
Mark Levin Radio Show - Pres Obama "Armed Swat Teams To Inspect Oil Rigs In Gulf"

[Video]

Much of that oil is ending up in Louisiana's wetlands, many of which are wildlife refuges.

Apparently, the National Parks folks (part of the Dept of the Interior), have "vegetative" swat teams. The description here is something other than what they would have to do with oil encroachment, but maybe this is what Obama was talking about.

549 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:08:10pm

re: #548 reine.de.tout

Much of that oil is ending up in Louisiana's wetlands, many of which are wildlife refuges.

Apparently, the National Parks folks (part of the Dept of the Interior), have "vegetative" swat teams. The description here is something other than what they would have to do with oil encroachment, but maybe this is what Obama was talking about.

Soil and Water Assessment Tool (SWAT)

[Link: www.nps.gov...]

550 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:08:55pm

Northeast Region GPS SWAT team

[Link: www.nps.gov...]

Have another drink of Kool Aid Mr. Levin.

551 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:09:22pm

re: #549 Gus 802

Soil and Water Assessment Tool (SWAT)

[Link: www.nps.gov...]

SOIL AND WATER ASSESSMENT TEAMS ARE GOING TO GET US!!11!

552 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:09:38pm

re: #549 Gus 802

Soil and Water Assessment Tool (SWAT)

[Link: www.nps.gov...]

It won't make any difference.

553 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:09:53pm

re: #541 Aceofwhat?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

This allows for teachers to be fired based on a non-existent, subjective standard of what 'thick' is, despite absolutely no research being presented that this is even a problem. I have never seen any research showing that accents are any problem in teaching a language whatsoever, especially in an immersive environment. There is the strong possibility that an accent is actually better, as an intermediary step. Do you know of any research showing that an accent, even a strong one, has negative influences on language learning and adoption?

I am fucking sick and tired of teachers being blamed for problems outside of their scope. I am sick of racists hiding their intentions behind 'oh, we just want to help the children'. I am sick of a lot of things.

554 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:09:57pm

re: #549 Gus 802

Soil and Water Assessment Tool (SWAT)

[Link: www.nps.gov...]

I'm marginally following this. Are you saying the Obama is dispatching Soil and Water Assessment Tool (SWAT) teams and the kook-o-sphere is saying he's sending SWAT (special weapons and tactics) Teams?

555 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:10:13pm

re: #551 Varek Raith

SOIL AND WATER ASSESSMENT TEAMS ARE GOING TO GET US!!11!

They're coming to Federalize teh water and soil!

//

556 reine.de.tout  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:10:19pm

re: #549 Gus 802

Soil and Water Assessment Tool (SWAT)

[Link: www.nps.gov...]

There you go.
They will be needed.
sheesh.

557 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:10:27pm

re: #554 Jeff In Ohio

I'm marginally following this. Are you saying the Obama is dispatching Soil and Water Assessment Tool (SWAT) teams and the kook-o-sphere is saying he's sending SWAT (special weapons and tactics) Teams?

...Yes...

558 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:10:53pm

re: #557 Varek Raith

...Yes...

Oh my, how delightfully delicious.

559 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:10:58pm

re: #554 Jeff In Ohio

I'm marginally following this. Are you saying the Obama is dispatching Soil and Water Assessment Tool (SWAT) teams and the kook-o-sphere is saying he's sending SWAT (special weapons and tactics) Teams?

Oh, just that it's a figure of speech within the government. It can be used for anything.

560 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:11:07pm

re: #549 Gus 802

Soil and Water Assessment Tool (SWAT)

[Link: www.nps.gov...]

They are so gullible!

561 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:11:20pm

re: #554 Jeff In Ohio

I'm marginally following this. Are you saying the Obama is dispatching Soil and Water Assessment Tool (SWAT) teams and the kook-o-sphere is saying he's sending SWAT (special weapons and tactics) Teams?

From the WAAU Department.....

562 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:12:14pm

re: #560 Stanley Sea

They are so gullible!

We don't want to talk about gulls--or turtles.

563 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:12:15pm

re: #540 Gus 802

Yup.Alex Jones is very much at home with today's wingnuts.

564 lawhawk  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:12:31pm

re: #545 Decatur Deb

Well, if every landscaper leaves, that means that the state will stop using so much damned water... in the desert... where there's a persistent water shortage.

Okay, that's Kinison talking about African hunger, but it is applicable to people living in frickin' deserts.

565 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:12:45pm

OT: My brother is cool. He called me yesterday to ask if I wanted his TV (big fuckin' Sony flat-screen he bought three years ago for some stupid amount of money)...it appears he bought three new ones for a client of his for a trade show, and now that the show's over they didn't need the TVs so he's got one for his office, one for his house, and one they'll either raffle off or give to charity, and I get an almost new monster for my living room...I guess that means I get to go out and buy a Wii now.

566 tnguitarist  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:12:55pm

re: #557 Varek Raith

...Yes...

It's hard to parody someone when they do all the work.

567 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:13:04pm
re: #553 Obdicut

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Could you please clarify?

568 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:14:03pm

re: #565 darthstar

OT: My brother is cool. He called me yesterday to ask if I wanted his TV (big fuckin' Sony flat-screen he bought three years ago for some stupid amount of money)...it appears he bought three new ones for a client of his for a trade show, and now that the show's over they didn't need the TVs so he's got one for his office, one for his house, and one they'll either raffle off or give to charity, and I get an almost new monster for my living room...I guess that means I get to go out and buy a Wii now.

I would sell it and give the money to the National Wildlife Fund.

569 mlgblg  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:14:32pm

re: #103 jamesfirecat

"But Schwartz and some other Americans with Hispanic backgrounds who spoke with CNN say the problem with illegals isn't just the jobs they take. It's how they're overrunning towns like Phoenix, turning them into "mini-Mexicos" with their trash-filled streets and loud music, according to Schwartz. "

YOU KIDS TURN THAT MUSIC DOWN AND GET OFF MY LAWN!

we used to live in a small ohio town. we rented a house from a lebanese american lady. one day we had a barbecue with our mexican friends. i got a call from our land lady. she wanted to know what the mexicans were doing in her yard. i reminded her that as long as we paid the rent, the lawn was mine. what is sweet is that we, the renters, are filipinos. our skin is just as brown.

570 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:14:37pm

re: #545 Decatur Deb

Arizona wins!! Every Mexican gardener that leaves the state will be replaced by three labor lawyers.

That sounds like an "out of the frying pan and into the fire" result...

571 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:15:21pm

re: #509 ~Fianna

I'm going to humiliate myself here, I fear, but I'll try this one with out Google:

Pluperfect is the "I have been" construction, yes?

Future subjunctive: "I will have been"

Cato?

That would be the future perfect, i.e. action to be completed at some point later on. Future subjunctive would be "I could find myself to have been" or something similar.

572 zora  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:16:03pm

re: #555 Gus 802

... with fluoride

573 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:16:50pm

re: #572 zora

... with fluoride

And chemtrails!

574 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:17:28pm

re: #536 Killgore Trout

Levin think the SWAT Teams are going to take over the oil industry...
Mark Levin Radio Show - Pres Obama "Armed Swat Teams To Inspect Oil Rigs In Gulf"

[Video]

Levin is a fucking retard. Hondo is going to kick his ass when he and his swat team find him.

575 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:18:02pm

re: #568 Walter L. Newton

I would sell it and give the money to the National Wildlife Fund.

But Bulamanganao will look great on the wide screen!

576 lawhawk  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:18:16pm

re: #573 Gus 802

Zombies... don't forget the zombies...

and if you can put it all together (throw in a little Tunguska incident), you've got a masterpiece.

577 Decatur Deb  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:18:23pm

re: #571 Cato the Elder

That would be the future perfect, i.e. action to be completed at some point later on. Future subjunctive would be "I could find myself to have been" or something similar.

I had a deep, soul-liberating epiphany on the Latin sequence of tenses the week before the publication of Vatican II. and the called him "The Good Pope".

578 lawhawk  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:19:22pm

re: #574 darthstar

579 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:20:19pm

re: #578 lawhawk

Thanks...I did a quick look for that and ended up with full episodes on youtube.

580 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:20:26pm

Oil spill an inside job?
Ezra Klein

If Rush Limbaugh was on the far left, he'd be a 9/11 truther. As it is, he's on the far right, and has decided to become an oil-spill truther:

I want to get back to the timing of the blowing up, the explosion out there in the Gulf of Mexico of this oil rig. ... Now, lest we forget, ladies and gentlemen, the carbon tax bill, cap and trade, that was scheduled to be announced on Earth Day. I remember that. And then it was postponed for a couple of days later after Earth Day, and then of course immigration has now moved in front of it. But this bill, the cap-and-trade bill, was strongly criticized by hardcore environmentalist wackos because it supposedly allowed more offshore drilling and nuclear plants, nuclear plant investment. So, since they're sending SWAT teams down there, folks, since they're sending SWAT teams to inspect the other rigs, what better way to head off more oil drilling, nuclear plants, than by blowing up a rig? I'm just noting the timing here.

Is there literally nothing this man can say that will convince Republicans to disavow him?

581 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:20:32pm

re: #571 Cato the Elder

That would be the future perfect, i.e. action to be completed at some point later on. Future subjunctive would be "I could find myself to have been" or something similar.

Aah. Thanks :)

582 webevintage  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:22:30pm

re: #580 Gus 802

Is there literally nothing this man can say that will convince Republicans to disavow him?


But, but, but Rush is just joking.
He is being sarcastic with that dry, dry wit he has.
You obviously just do not get it.
/

583 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:22:42pm

re: #546 PAUL_MACDONALD

No fair, changing the parameters. So, I won't let you.

If my Mother taught in Arizona, as opposed to Nevada, she could be removed from her job if someone took a dislike to her. Wait, what? Yes, the intent of the law currently under discussion. No one would, but they COULD.

It's about marginalizing Hispanics. It's not about the thickness of accents (which is entirely subjective). I suspect you know this.

this is the original post that you responded to.

i'm going to catch hell for playing devil's advocate here (heh), but it appears that the item is indeed related to elocution. see the part about kids who don't already speak native english.

so there's that.

it's about both the thickness of accents and the marginalization of ____. insert whatever you want in the blank.

parameters unchanged.

we judge job candidates to have or to lack potential based on subjective judgments all the time. i don't believe this bill is the way to do it, but some of us were discussing whether a thick foreign accent is conducive to ESL.

if i just agree that i don't like this bill, will you be satisfied, or are you on some odd mission to prove that one's accent in a language is wholly unrelated to one's proficiency in teaching said language?

because that's would be dumb. so i'm hoping you're not on that mission.

584 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:22:56pm

re: #529 prairiefire

A newbie, welcome.

(just logged back on)

thank you!

585 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:23:19pm

More buffoonery. This time from Drudge linked Prison Plant:

Levin: SWAT Team Response To Oil Spill Is Government Takeover Plot
Former Reagan advisor suggests Obama is greasing the skids for nationalization of the oil industry

Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet.com
Friday, April 30, 2010

Radio talk show host and former Reagan cabinet advisor Mark Levin has slammed President Obama’s bizarre announcement that he will be sending SWAT teams to deal with the Gulf of Mexico oil spill, alleging that the response is part of a plan to grease the skids for government takeover and nationalization of the oil industry.

In a move that has shocked and dumbfounded political observers in equal measure, Obama said yesterday the “Department of Interior has announced that they will be sending SWAT teams to the Gulf to inspect all platforms and rigs.”...

Levin alleged that the response was a precursor to government nationalization of the oil industry via the back door. “I think those SWAT teams are there in coordination with the attorney general’s office, the Interior Department, Homeland Security, maybe the EPA….to seize records at these sites and to lay the foundation for more government takeover,” he stated.

Levin added that he was stunned with the media’s nonchalant reaction at Obama’s flagrant abuse of power.

“It just stuns me that we’re sending SWAT teams to all platforms and rigs, not ecological experts, not various scientific experts, not engineers – we’re sending SWAT Teams – we don’t even send SWAT teams to the border….you don’t send SWAT teams to rigs in the middle of an environmental problem,” he said...

Mark Levin, that tin foil hat fits you well.

586 lawhawk  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:23:35pm

Well, lookie here. Bernie Madoff's attempts to shield the rest of his family from investigation didn't work out too well.

Madoff's brother, Peter, and sons Andrew and Mark -- executives in the Madoff firm's legitimate market-making and proprietary-trading business -- are likely to face tax fraud charges later this year, but may escape more serious securities fraud charges if authorities fail to come up with solid evidence they knowingly participated in the massive fraud, the people said.

The people, who asked not to be identified because the investigation hasn't been completed, declined to name the two employees or specify possible charges.

Four other employees and an outside accountant already have been charged with helping Madoff pull off a multibillion-dollar Ponzi scheme that spanned decades and burned thousands of investors.

Serves 'em right.

587 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:23:59pm

re: #585 Gus 802

Oops, Prison Planet not Prison Plant.

Although...

/

588 Varek Raith  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:24:40pm

re: #585 Gus 802

More buffoonery. This time from Drudge linked Prison Plant:

Levin: SWAT Team Response To Oil Spill Is Government Takeover Plot
Former Reagan advisor suggests Obama is greasing the skids for nationalization of the oil industry

Mark Levin, that tin foil hat fits you well.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
The Onion couldn't do better.

589 Lidane  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:25:29pm

re: #537 Gus 802

Tim James blows the dog whistle.

Alabama is 43rd in Hispanic population or 2.08 percent.

When he speaks about drivers license tests in other languages he is not playing on the fears of Laotians.

Which is precisely why the only proper response to Tim James is having him serenaded by Jon Stewart and his gospel choir. =P

590 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:25:36pm

re: #553 Obdicut

I have no idea what you're talking about.

ok. then why are you arguing with me??

591 What, me worry?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:26:01pm

Have we deviated from the subject or can I put in my $.2?

Has anyone actually explained what an "acceptable" accent is? A NY accent wouldn't be acceptable, would it? How about Boston? Those people can't pronounce an "R" to save their life! Come to think of it, why aren't all the children graduating from school on the east coast complete morons? They've been taught by people with shitty accents haven't they?

This is undoubtedly one of the most horrifying things I've read from a state legislature. Not even a school board! I'm still trying to pick my jaw off the floor.

592 lawhawk  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:26:42pm

re: #587 Gus 802

Back to Rura Penthe for you.

593 Lidane  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:27:45pm

re: #591 marjoriemoon

Have we deviated from the subject or can I put in my $.2?

Has anyone actually explained what an "acceptable" accent is?

One that isn't Latino, clearly.

/

594 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:27:53pm

Deepwater Horizon was an inside job!!11!!111

Eleventy!1

/

595 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:27:57pm

re: #590 Aceofwhat?

I wasn't aware that I was arguing with you. It did seem like you were arguing with me, when you told me to go read the article that I had already read and quoted from. I said there was no actual standard. You replied, telling me to read the article-- which says there is no standard.

So I have no clue why you told me to read that article, especially since I had already quoted from it, and especially since the article says there is no standard.

596 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:29:36pm

Crackpot on the web:

Re: We've all been had again...'accidental' oil spill, my ass.

Totally agree, OP. This is the 'false flag' we knew was going to happen. AND, they are going to try to take down England in the process.

Very constructed. I don't believe a word of it. Just like the Polish plane, this was just next on the NWO's list of 'things to do': Explode BP Oil Platform. Blame on England. Force her to declare bankruptcy.

Oh, this has Commie-Nazi written all over it!

597 ArchangelMichael  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:30:13pm

re: #591 marjoriemoon

Has anyone actually explained what an "acceptable" accent is?

Received Pronunciation.

598 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:30:14pm

We get the oil industry and England in one fell swoop!

/

599 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:31:00pm

re: #596 Gus 802

Wouldn't taking down England, that socialist paradise, be seen as a good thing by those opposed to the NWO?

I lose track of who's in charge of the NWO. I figured the Queen was in on it.

600 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:31:18pm

re: #590 Aceofwhat?

re: #595 Obdicut

Wut we have heeyuh is a failyuh to communicate.

601 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:31:24pm

re: #553 Obdicut

I have no idea what you're talking about.

I have never seen any research showing that accents are any problem in teaching a language whatsoever, especially in an immersive environment. There is the strong possibility that an accent is actually better, as an intermediary step. Do you know of any research showing that an accent, even a strong one, has negative influences on language learning and adoption?

Do you need me to find a paper with data showing that a teacher who can't be well understood isn't going to be very effective? Really?

It's a crappy bill. Do you really want to extrapolate that to mean that the accent has no bearing on the effectiveness of a teacher? Because i can find you an accent that will.

602 ArchangelMichael  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:31:31pm

re: #592 lawhawk

Back to Rura Penthe for you.

There is no stockade. No guard towers. No electronic frontier.

603 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:32:40pm

re: #599 Obdicut

Wouldn't taking down England, that socialist paradise, be seen as a good thing by those opposed to the NWO?

I lose track of who's in charge of the NWO. I figured the Queen was in on it.

I'm sure if we hook up the Queen of England to the Jeff Rense Illuminati Analyzer™ we'd find that she is one of Them©.

/

604 What, me worry?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:34:07pm

re: #593 Lidane

One that isn't Latino, clearly. /

I was taught English on the East Coast. At age 10, I went from "pawk the caw in the yawd" to the midwest where all "a" sounds were very long.

Seems to me this country hasn't had a shortage of scholars who were taught English by accented humans.

(I saw your sarc tag btw... I'm just sick over this.)

re: #597 ArchangelMichael

I was going to say, looks like Arizona will have to bring in some folks who speak the Queens English to suffice, if they're not illegal that is.

605 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:34:46pm

re: #595 Obdicut

I wasn't aware that I was arguing with you. It did seem like you were arguing with me, when you told me to go read the article that I had already read and quoted from. I said there was no actual standard. You replied, telling me to read the article-- which says there is no standard.

sorta. you don't have to tell me the bill is a bad idea. call me the choir!

the only interesting part of the article was the thick accent part, to me. because at some point, an accent really is thick enough to be a hindrance. (i'm just waiting for someone else to figure that out)

however, that's the point of the hiring process, not the legislative process. if i thought my daughter's teacher was hard to understand, i'd mobilize the other parents to get whoever hired her canned like Campbell's salty soup.

i wouldn't even think of this sort of legislation.

606 lawhawk  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:35:00pm

re: #580 Gus 802

The crazy... it burns!

607 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:35:11pm

re: #600 Spare O'Lake

re: #595 Obdicut

Wut we have heeyuh is a failyuh to communicate.

i take responsibility.

608 prairiefire  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:36:45pm

This is what I was talking about when I said we would legislate the problems occurring from the Citizens United ruling:[Link: www.pfaw.org...]

609 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:37:48pm

re: #594 Gus 802

Deepwater Horizon was an inside job!!11!!111

Eleventy!1

/

PROOF! JUST IN! TOP SEKRIT DHS VIDEO! Complete with black chopper! (Ok, dark green but it's close, especially to sleep-deprived George Nouri fans.)

610 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:38:55pm

I'm confused... is it S.W.O.T (That’s Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, and Threats.) teams or S.W.A.T. (Soil and Water. Assessment Tool)... The DOI has S.W.O.T teams. I think that's what he was saying.

611 zora  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:39:38pm

[Link: yglesias.thinkprogress.org...]

The executive director of the Major League Baseball Player’s Association has released a strong statement condemning the Arizona immigration law.
“The impact of the bill signed into law in Arizona last Friday is not limited to the players on one team. The international players on the Diamondbacks work and, with their families, reside in Arizona from April through September or October. In addition, during the season, hundreds of international players on opposing Major League teams travel to Arizona to play the Diamondbacks. And, the spring training homes of half of the 30 Major League teams are now in Arizona. All of these players, as well as their families, could be adversely affected, even though their presence in the United States is legal. Each of them must be ready to prove, at any time, his identity and the legality of his being in Arizona to any state or local official with suspicion of his immigration status. This law also may affect players who are U.S. citizens but are suspected by law enforcement of being of foreign descent.

612 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:39:50pm

re: #601 Aceofwhat?

Do you need me to find a paper with data showing that a teacher who can't be well understood isn't going to be very effective? Really?

As the Washington Post article that you asked me to read says, what is clear to one student may be unclear to another. A teacher with a Mexcian accent may actually be more comprehensible to people who speak English with a Mexican accent.

There is a conflation of at least two things here: Whether the teacher can be understood, and whether the language acquisition from that teacher will be affected in any way.

It's a crappy bill. Do you really want to extrapolate that to mean that the accent has no bearing on the effectiveness of a teacher? Because i can find you an accent that will.

Yes, I really would like to see papers on that, given that what I have read shows that having an accent similar to the spoken language of the student can be helpful.

This is one paper that argues that:

[Link: muse.jhu.edu...]

MCardle has done some extensive empircal testing, mainly attempting to solve an opposite problem-- why students who could become bilingual don't-- and the main outcome from that was that multi-language classes (as in, the teacher teaches in both Spanish and English) are just as good as monolanguage ones.

613 Gus  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:40:42pm

Work!? Back later.

614 PAUL_MACDONALD  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:42:15pm

re: #583 Aceofwhat?

it's about both the thickness of accents and the marginalization of ___. insert whatever you want in the blank.

It's not about marginalization of Whites from Louisiana who teach English.

Define "thick accent" using the parameters set out in the bill.

we judge job candidates to have or to lack potential based on subjective judgments all the time. i don't believe this bill is the way to do it, but some of us were discussing whether a thick foreign accent is conducive to ESL.

Because Arizona thought it was a pressing problem and presented data to back their opinion. It was then made available to the public that they may judge the validity of said data!

if i just agree that i don't like this bill, will you be satisfied, or are you on some odd mission to prove that one's accent in a language is wholly unrelated to one's proficiency in teaching said language?

Arizona makes a habit of hiring unqualified ESL teachers? That seems to be the undertone. There weren't proficiency tests? Unlikely, to say the least.

because that's would be dumb. so i'm hoping you're not on that mission.

Dumb would be pretending that there is any validity to the bill in the first place.

I'm done on this topic. Too long of a thread.

615 Cato the Elder  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:42:34pm

re: #596 Gus 802

No, but it could just maybe might have "EarthFirst!" written all over it.

616 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:43:10pm

re: #596 Gus 802

Crackpot on the web:

Do they explain at all how this is going to "take down England"?

617 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:44:01pm

re: #616 ~Fianna

It's going to ruin the East India Company.
/

618 cliffster  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:44:53pm
619 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:44:58pm

re: #603 Gus 802

I'm sure if we hook up the Queen of England to the Jeff Rense Illuminati Analyzer™ we'd find that she is one of Them©.

/

She's one of the lizard people

*slow blink*

620 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:45:42pm

re: #612 Obdicut

Yes, I really would like to see papers on that, given that what I have read shows that having an accent similar to the spoken language of the student can be helpful.

But if it can be helpful, then you are saying that the accent CAN matter! That's all i'm saying! (and i'm not being facetious)

*bows*

621 Macha  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:46:45pm

re: #224 HoosierHoops

I love accents mostly...I like southern accents..NY accents..Boston...Minnesota..Australian, British, French, It's a beautiful thing..
OK one thing I don't like is that Hoosiers can't say the word Wash..Pisses me off..
Wersh..
No It's Wash..Wersh?
Wash!
Wersh?
Damn it...It's Wash!
Fricking Hoosiers.. It's WASH!
/

LOL, I learned to say warsh for wash. My parents were from Colorado and Wyoming. I know the difference and have always tried to erase it from my speech, but it sneaks out.

622 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:46:52pm

subjunctive

english, unlike spanish, does not have a seperate grammatical form for the subjunctive, so the concept is a bit esoteric for english speakers. a good way to get a grip on it is this: the subjunctive occurs when you are talking about something that might happen. this is often found in phrases as simple as "i want you to wash the car". you might wash the car or you might not. annoyingly, in spanish you need to use a subjunctive form for 'wash' instead of the present tense. german or yiddish speakers, feeling the need for a subjunctive form will often fall back on a conditional tense instead, saying "i want you should wash the car"

623 What, me worry?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:48:02pm

re: #611 zora

It's just one crazy thing after another and goodness knows how far it will reach. Great example.

What kind of grownups will Arizona be producing? Oh nm, I don't want to know anyway.

I'm am very anti-boycott. I think boycotts hurt innocent people and ironically enough, a boycott of Arizona will hurt... guess who... struggling immigrants, as if these poor people don't have enough problems. But I'm thinking of rethinking all that. I haven't decided.

624 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:48:03pm

re: #620 Aceofwhat?

Actually, you were very clearly painting the accent as a potential comprehensibility problem, and saying that a thick accent was at some point a problem. You were not simply saying that an accent matters.

And again, I still have no clue why, when I said that there weren't any standards, you told me I should read an article that said there weren't any standards.

625 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:48:09pm

re: #617 Obdicut

It's going to ruin the East India Company.
/

We've always been at war with East India.

626 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:48:16pm

re: #612 Obdicut

There is a conflation of at least two things here: Whether the teacher can be understood, and whether the language acquisition from that teacher will be affected in any way.

If the teacher can't be well understood, the language acquisition will suffer.

Sorta follows, doesn't it? So then the question is at what point does the accent have no bearing on the teaching, not whether it is possible for an accent to affect the teaching.

Being comprehensible is a good quality in a teacher. many thick accents are tough to comprehend. again, not that this legislation is a good way to go about it...

627 cliffster  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:48:20pm

re: #622 engineer dog

yo quiero que lave mi coche

628 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:48:38pm

By the way, did anyone else catch John Boehner on NPR this morning taking credit for the HCR bill he wants to repeal (and fix)? When asked about coverage for dependents up until the age of 26 (already implemented by many insurance companies) and the changes in rescission policy taking place early, he said, "Those were Republican ideas." (I guess that's why he voted against it)...the guy is such a tool.

629 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:49:21pm

of course, spelling 'separate' incorrectly invalidates my whole post so i'll have to do it over...

630 cliffster  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:49:51pm

re: #628 darthstar

Why? If a bill has your idea on it, and 100 other things you think are stupid, you're going to vote against it. If it passes though, it was still your idea.

631 What, me worry?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:50:05pm

re: #620 Aceofwhat?

But if it can be helpful, then you are saying that the accent CAN matter! That's all i'm saying! (and i'm not being facetious)

*bows*

It's ridiculous and insane to think an accent matters. It doesn't. Anyone who is an English teacher has the credentials to teach. What the hell does the accent matter.

You do realize they speak English is countries with really thick accents, like em... ENGLAND.

632 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:50:17pm

re: #618 cliffster

uh oh, might be time to sue Arizona for $60,000,000,000 Billion dollars

“Michael Vick has to stop physically hurting my feelings and dashing my hopes,” Riches writes in the complaint.

What a maroon.

633 cliffster  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:51:36pm

re: #632 darthstar

“Michael Vick has to stop physically hurting my feelings and dashing my hopes,” Riches writes in the complaint.

What a maroon.

That's my favorite line. I bet this guy is funny as hell in real life. Except when he's killing people. (** disclaimer.. I have no idea what the guy is in prison for)

634 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:52:30pm

re: #626 Aceofwhat?

Being comprehensible is a good quality in a teacher. many thick accents are tough to comprehend. again, not that this legislation is a good way to go about it...

This is where you're wrong. Many thick accents are easier to understand for people who themselves have thick accents.

What I am saying is that if you have a class of kids who are first-generation and mainly speak Spanish, it is entirely possible, mostly based on the research in the Canadian system and the Welsh systems, that someone who speaks English with a strong accent is actually a superior teacher of the language independent of accent.

Now, in terms of whether or not that teacher will also, despite teaching them better, also teach them that accent and hinder better pronunciation absorbed through assimilation I don't know, but there is no reason to believe it would be so from anything I have seen.

635 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:52:52pm

re: #630 cliffster

Why? If a bill has your idea on it, and 100 other things you think are stupid, you're going to vote against it. If it passes though, it was still your idea.

Boehner wants those who like getting their health care to vote for him and other Republicans so he can take away their health care. And it's a lie. The Republicans never contributed to the bill...not once. Maybe the Democrats used ESP to read their minds and suck all the good ideas out of them, leaving the Republicans in a stupor only able to mutter "no" and "deth panlzzz"...yeah, that's it...

636 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:53:19pm

re: #634 Obdicut

Absorbed through immerson. PIMF.

637 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:53:47pm

re: #624 Obdicut

Actually, you were very clearly painting the accent as a potential comprehensibility problem, and saying that a thick accent was at some point a problem. You were not simply saying that an accent matters.

And again, I still have no clue why, when I said that there weren't any standards, you told me I should read an article that said there weren't any standards.

ah. ok. no, i asked you to read the article because the section you quoted wasn't about the thick accent. i wanted you to see the part i was talking about.

but a bill that doesn't contain standards is different from a bill that doesn't specify its goal. the goal here is not to remove teachers with mild accents, otherwise it would have said that.

whether we trust them to pursue said goal nobly is a different question, and my answer is no.

638 What, me worry?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:54:10pm

re: #632 darthstar

“Michael Vick has to stop physically hurting my feelings and dashing my hopes,” Riches writes in the complaint.

What a maroon.

I've got a girlfriend for Riches. Her name is Orly.

639 bagua  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:54:10pm

re: #632 darthstar

“Michael Vick has to stop physically hurting my feelings and dashing my hopes,” Riches writes in the complaint.

What a maroon.

Feelings are important, and hope sustains us. Also, being subjected to "microwave testing" sound cruel and unusual. Michael Vick has a lot to answer for.

640 cliffster  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:55:12pm

re: #638 marjoriemoon

I've got a girlfriend for Riches. Her name is Orly.

A match made in heaven.

641 Macha  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:55:46pm

re: #59 darthstar

642 cliffster  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:56:09pm

re: #641 Macha

643 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:56:09pm

re: #637 Aceofwhat?

but a bill that doesn't contain standards is different from a bill that doesn't specify its goal. the goal here is not to remove teachers with mild accents, otherwise it would have said that.

Let me put it as simply as I can:

If the bill doesn't distinguish between what a strong or mild accent is, then you cannot say that the goal is not to remove teachers with mild accents. The language 'strong accent' has no actual meaning unless you define what 'strong' means.

If strong is up to a subjective judgement, then one person can say an accent is mild, and another person can say it is strong.

644 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:56:32pm

re: #614 PAUL_MACDONALD

aaand you're back to pretending that i like the bill. i agree with your statement that you should move along.

645 Ojoe  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:57:06pm
o remove teachers who speak English with an accent from classes with students who are still learning English.

WTF is wrong with a brogue or a burr?

Madness!

646 Bagua  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:57:18pm

re: #642 cliffster

Brevity is the soul of wit

647 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:58:02pm

I want to comment on the ethnic studies portion of this bill.

I have met absolutely brilliant people from all backgrounds and both genders. I have written here many times on how IQ tests are very questionable measures and that any sort of racial or gender based profiling done with them is fraught with error. I have pointed out that the IQ test itself questionable since it is not at all clear what it is measuring and has produced many dubious results. The example I use is that Richard Feynman only scored a 132 and that there are hundreds of thousands of people who have scored higher than that, yet there was only one Feynman. The idea that comic book guy is somehow smarter than the greatest physicist of his generation - easily the same rank as Einstein- is ludicrous.

So if the test is flawed and there is no real basis for ethnic or gender based arguments as to why some are smarter than others, we can start to look at environmental factors. Any teacher will tell you that if a student comes from parents who value education and push kids to learn, the student will do better. Those parents are part of a culture. This is my point about the importance of ethnic studies. If you have great role models to live up to, you have a culture of success.

It is not that Asians or Jews are smarter than others. It is that those cultures tend to force their kids to study and would rather have straight A children than captains of the football team. They also have a proud heritage of this that allows them to not feel second best in a classroom. They make no apologies for living up to their role models. It is not that men are smarter than women. It is that women in America are still not expected to be as smart as men - even though that is (thankfully) getting better. As more and more women become role models, more and more girls will decide that they can do it too.

So how do you fix this and have every group in America coming from a level playing field such that everyone achieves their full potential? You need to give those who feel excluded, pride in themselves and role models to follow. That is one of the main benefits of ethnic studies courses. It cuts two ways, the kid from another group learns commonalities and respect for others and the ethnic kid learns respect for himself or herself.

If someone is a white supremacist or even just the average white guy who will swear they are not racist,, such a thing can be deeply threatening. He doesn't want to hear that there really are great Hispanics and Black people and Women. He wants to feel secure in his own perceived status and silence such talk. The threat of this is also two fold. It teaches kids from those groups to accept that perceived status of themselves for themselves. Of course the majority kids then have to learn those lessons of respect elsewhere as well.

Any move to destroy ethnic studies is an inherently racist move designed to salve the fears of the non-accomplished white person at the expense of others having the role models they need to succeed. And I said non-accomplished white person pointedly. White folks who are educated and self secure, feel no threat from a Latino or a Black person who is proud of who he is.

648 Bagua  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 1:59:22pm

Today's Leesone is der Leeter hey, pweeze opening zee bookses to zee pageses.

649 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:00:29pm

re: #647 LudwigVanQuixote

Let's also not forget that ethnic studies aren't meant to teach that one culture is better than another. They're meant to teach people about other cultures so they can better understand that culture. They're actually (are you listening, AZ xenophobic bureaucrats?)a good thing...sheesh.

650 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:00:49pm

re: #634 Obdicut

This is where you're wrong. Many thick accents are easier to understand for people who themselves have thick accents.

What I am saying is that if you have a class of kids who are first-generation and mainly speak Spanish, it is entirely possible, mostly based on the research in the Canadian system and the Welsh systems, that someone who speaks English with a strong accent is actually a superior teacher of the language independent of accent.

Now, in terms of whether or not that teacher will also, despite teaching them better, also teach them that accent and hinder better pronunciation absorbed through assimilation I don't know, but there is no reason to believe it would be so from anything I have seen.

THAT was a great reply. i'm still pondering it.

(is MACDONALD around to take notes??)

651 MandyManners  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:00:55pm

re: #648 Bagua

Today's Leesone is der Leeter hey, pweeze opening zee bookses to zee pageses.

ARIZONA UBER ALLES

652 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:01:48pm

re: #649 darthstar

Let's also not forget that ethnic studies aren't meant to teach that one culture is better than another. They're meant to teach people about other cultures so they can better understand that culture. They're actually (are you listening, AZ xenophobic bureaucrats?)a good thing...sheesh.

They are better than just a good thing. They are a necessary thing if we ever are to have real equality.

653 Renaissance_Man  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:02:18pm

This new SWAT team conspiracy theory - is it reasonably certain that the SWAT teams in question are in fact Soil and Water Assessment teams?

Yet another example of Conservative media making up stories and presenting them as fact. What a bizarre world they live in.

654 cliffster  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:03:18pm

Does this mean I can't be an English teacher in Arizona because of my thick redneck accent? Is it ok to teach kids how to drink whiskey from a Big Gulp cup in English class?

655 Macha  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:03:26pm

re: #59 darthstar

Actually you were both right. Koi-oat is used pretty much everywhere in the US except in the Southwest. There it is pronounced Kai-oat-ee, which is Spanish pronunciation with a the first syllable changed from Koi to Kai. There are a number of words from Spanish that have dual pronunciation and were introduced via the cowboy in the late 19th century. Another is rodeo. Is it ro-day-oh or ro-dee-oh? Both are considered correct depending on where one lives.

656 engineer cat  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:03:31pm

re: #627 cliffster

yo quiero que lave mi coche

exactamente

657 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:03:33pm

re: #643 Obdicut

Let me put it as simply as I can:

If the bill doesn't distinguish between what a strong or mild accent is, then you cannot say that the goal is not to remove teachers with mild accents. The language 'strong accent' has no actual meaning unless you define what 'strong' means.

If strong is up to a subjective judgement, then one person can say an accent is mild, and another person can say it is strong.

i am interested in discussing the intent of the bill, since i don't believe the execution will be done well. the intent was specifically targeted at thick accents, which could be subsequently standardized.

a bill can be passed and then later quantified into regulation. it's not necessary to pack it all into the bill...

658 Macha  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:04:14pm

re: #642 cliffster

Some kind of goof. Sorry. When I hit send this is all that was sent.

659 Ojoe  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:04:21pm

And anyway, the "no" accent is actually an accent also.

Someone just picked it to be the reference point.

660 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:05:17pm

re: #650 Aceofwhat?

Language is tricky as hell. We don't really, really understand how kids learn it. Or adults, for that matter. There are a lot of non-intuitive things about language acquisition, such as vocabulary size as a child having no relationship to vocabulary size as an adult.

It's fascinating stuff. For example, it's easier for a Cantonese speaker to learn Thai than Mandarin, even though there is no real relationship between Cantonese and Thai and a very strong one to Mandarin.

661 What, me worry?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:06:11pm

Question: as with recent AZ law, isn't this equally unconstitutional? Since when can you discriminate against anyone with an accent?

Poor AZ is gonna have no money left to throw gravel on a road when this is done.

662 lostlakehiker  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:07:32pm

re: #6 Gus 802

Arizona has managed to make Texas look like a progressive state in less than a week.

Hayell yeah. We let folks with a damnyankee ayackceaent teach. Even ifn it haint hardly rat good Texan thet ther teachin. N if they tawk funny some other ways, wayehl, thets OK too. Everbodys got sumfin funny bout th way they tawk.

Seriously, a teacher ought to have a good vocabulary and a command of correct grammar. But accents are extremely difficult for adults to correct and anyone who listens to the same person for a few minutes will have no trouble catching on. After that, the accent becomes transparent.

Schools do need a reasonable fraction of the teachers to speak some sort of standard English, because where else are students to be exposed to the kinds of accents almost all English-speaking Americans are comfortable with?

663 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:08:34pm

re: #657 Aceofwhat?

I do not think you can fairly say you can discern the intent of something that doesn't define necessary terms which are inherently subjective; whether or not it is targeting those with only 'strong' accents is not something one can say about the bill, since the bill doesn't say what a strong accent is.

If I passed a bill that said "All skinny teachers should be fired", and subsequently defined 'skinny' as anything under 200 pounds, would you say the intent of the bill was only to fire the skinny teachers? When you talk about intent, subjective evaluation immediately becomes relevant.

664 darthstar  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:10:21pm

re: #655 Macha

It's ro-dee-o for the sport and ro-day-o for the street full of crappy overpriced stores in Southern California. I grew up on rodeo, the sport. I have no interest in visiting Rodeo Drive.

665 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:10:21pm

re: #661 marjoriemoon

Question: as with recent AZ law, isn't this equally unconstitutional? Since when can you discriminate against anyone with an accent?

Poor AZ is gonna have no money left to throw gravel on a road when this is done.

Good. That will learn them.

666 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:10:54pm

re: #660 Obdicut

Language is tricky as hell. We don't really, really understand how kids learn it. Or adults, for that matter. There are a lot of non-intuitive things about language acquisition, such as vocabulary size as a child having no relationship to vocabulary size as an adult.

It's fascinating stuff. For example, it's easier for a Cantonese speaker to learn Thai than Mandarin, even though there is no real relationship between Cantonese and Thai and a very strong one to Mandarin.

i do a really great Liege impression - they're the hicks of Belgium, so you can just imagine what that accent makes them to the French.

667 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:11:43pm

re: #626 Aceofwhat?

If the teacher can't be well understood, the language acquisition will suffer.

Sorta follows, doesn't it? So then the question is at what point does the accent have no bearing on the teaching, not whether it is possible for an accent to affect the teaching.

Being comprehensible is a good quality in a teacher. many thick accents are tough to comprehend. again, not that this legislation is a good way to go about it...

It would depend on the subject being taught as well. A teacher with a thick French accent trying to teach English to a Mexican immigrant could get kind of silly sometimes. On the other hand, who really cares if the math teacher has a thick Spanish accent?

668 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:14:26pm

re: #663 Obdicut

I do not think you can fairly say you can discern the intent of something that doesn't define necessary terms which are inherently subjective; whether or not it is targeting those with only 'strong' accents is not something one can say about the bill, since the bill doesn't say what a strong accent is.

If I passed a bill that said "All skinny teachers should be fired", and subsequently defined 'skinny' as anything under 200 pounds, would you say the intent of the bill was only to fire the skinny teachers? When you talk about intent, subjective evaluation immediately becomes relevant.

No, i'd say the intent of the bill was to only fire the skinny teachers until i read your regulations, and then i'd call you a liar. I'd still be right for my interpretation of the bill; your subsequent regulation would be wrong.

At least, that's how my thought process works. I understand your explanation of how your thought process brought you to a different perspective, so credit to you for helping me understand it.

669 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:15:54pm

re: #667 Spare O'Lake

It would depend on the subject being taught as well. A teacher with a thick French accent trying to teach English to a Mexican immigrant could get kind of silly sometimes. On the other hand, who really cares if the math teacher has a thick Spanish accent?

I agree - it depends. I'd care if i couldn't understand the math teacher, no matter what accent they had!

670 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:16:28pm

re: #668 Aceofwhat?

Okay. I think where I'm falling down in getting you is that a bill, on its own, has no intent. The intent is solely sourced in those writing the bill. You appear to be giving sentience to the bill and granting it intentions, which would mean that Schoolhouse Rock video was actually a documentary and the fact that we let bills die in committee is a terrible tragedy.

Poor little bills.

671 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:16:49pm

re: #665 LudwigVanQuixote

Good. That will learn them.

That's not speaking good grammar. No AZ teaching license for you.

672 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:19:52pm

re: #670 Obdicut

Okay. I think where I'm falling down in getting you is that a bill, on its own, has no intent. The intent is solely sourced in those writing the bill. You appear to be giving sentience to the bill and granting it intentions, which would mean that Schoolhouse Rock video was actually a documentary and the fact that we let bills die in committee is a terrible tragedy.

Poor little bills.

The intent of your hypothetical bill was to ban skinny teachers. The language is used on purpose, to explain the intent of a bill. Upon reading it, i don't know what 'skinny' means, except that i know you don't intend to ban rubenesque teachers.

does that help?

673 Macha  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:20:21pm

re: #270 Aceofwhat?

huh? I speak French with a slight Brussels twang because i moved there early enough. Kids, pre-puberty, can pick up the native accent flawlessly.

they'll grow up bilingual, with no accent, unless accented teachers are enough of an influence to lend them an accent.

i honestly don't know the answer to that. but your comment as written is incorrect.

I have to agree with you Ace. These kids do grow up bilingual and rarely have accents. I lived in a city that had a high rate of immigration, both legal and illegal. If there was an accent, it was more of a local homeboy accent that was learned from peers. They didn't learn it at school or at home.

674 lostlakehiker  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:21:46pm

re: #652 LudwigVanQuixote

They are better than just a good thing. They are a necessary thing if we ever are to have real equality.

Equality of opportunity is good and desirable and the hindrances to it come from a couple of main sources. First, fractured family structures do not provide as good a life foundation as intact nuclear families, and the law has little it can do to promote this precondition for an optimal start in life. Second, so many of our schools are seriously subpar. Students who must attend those schools do not enjoy equality of opportunity because when they hit the age at which they must fend for themselves, they're already behind. The State is responsible for this unhappy situation and every effort should be bent to setting it right. Michelle Rhee in D.C. is a good example of the kinds of things that must happen.

Equality of outcome is impossible. People differ and in ways that affect life outcome. If you have just the right hand-eye coordination you may become a tennis star. Or not. It will depend on other things, including work ethic. But if you lack that coordination, nothing will avail; you cannot be a tennis star.

Ethnic studies, like any academic specialty, have their place at the University. In grade school etc., they represent time that might otherwise be spent on reading, writing, math and science. Since these areas are the ones where lack of accomplishment most seriously impedes life chances, caution in taking time from them to devote to ethnic studies is wise. By the same token, teaching the glories of the mainstream culture has little value and the time devoted to this should be small, so as not to get in the way of reading, writing, math and science.

History, done right, teaches the glories and the shames of the mainstream culture, and weaves into its narrative the threads of various other peoples and individuals who have not been so much in the limelight.

675 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:21:54pm

re: #673 Macha

I have to agree with you Ace. These kids do grow up bilingual and rarely have accents. I lived in a city that had a high rate of immigration, both legal and illegal. If there was an accent, it was more of a local homeboy accent that was learned from peers. They didn't learn it at school or at home.

the language centers in the brains of pre-pubescent children are fascinating things...it's a shame that it becomes less flexible so suddenly.

676 Macha  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:23:07pm

re: #664 darthstar

I grew up with the sport as well. I heard it both ways, but the most common was ro-dee-oh.

677 Macha  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:27:53pm

re: #675 Aceofwhat?

At what point does the flexibility decline? I know that children are able to learn a second or even more languages easily, but once in adulthood most of us have difficulty. The exception seems to be that some adults have a facility for languages. I've always likened it to a facility for art or music. Don't really know though.

678 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:29:35pm

re: #677 Macha

At what point does the flexibility decline? I know that children are able to learn a second or even more languages easily, but once in adulthood most of us have difficulty. The exception seems to be that some adults have a facility for languages. I've always likened it to a facility for art or music. Don't really know though.

it's puberty-related. i was 11.5 when we moved to Belgium so i just squeaked under the limit. got to know a few people who were 2-3yrs older than me...they were helpless in French. it's really amazing.

679 ~Fianna  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:33:59pm

re: #674 lostlakehiker


Ethnic studies, like any academic specialty, have their place at the University. In grade school etc., they represent time that might otherwise be spent on reading, writing, math and science. Since these areas are the ones where lack of accomplishment most seriously impedes life chances, caution in taking time from them to devote to ethnic studies is wise. By the same token, teaching the glories of the mainstream culture has little value and the time devoted to this should be small, so as not to get in the way of reading, writing, math and science.

Reading is essentially ethnic studies, isn't it? We read the cannon of literature, which prior to the 1960s and 1970s was the literature of white men. Should kids not be exposed to I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings or Bless Me, Ultima (which was on Laura Bush's must-read list?

680 Obdicut  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:45:34pm

re: #672 Aceofwhat?

Unless i define skinny in the bill, you have no clue who I really want to ban. Your definition of 'skinny' and mine are going to be different, so when you read the bill, you cannot possibly interpret it with the correct intention. All you know is that, by whatever subjective standards I'm using, I want to ban skinny teachers. You don't know whether my definition of skinny matches yours.

You could not point to a single teacher and say "Well, that one would be safe, because they're not skinny".

681 Aceofwhat?  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 2:57:21pm

re: #680 Obdicut

Unless i define skinny in the bill, you have no clue who I really want to ban. Your definition of 'skinny' and mine are going to be different, so when you read the bill, you cannot possibly interpret it with the correct intention. All you know is that, by whatever subjective standards I'm using, I want to ban skinny teachers. You don't know whether my definition of skinny matches yours.

You could not point to a single teacher and say "Well, that one would be safe, because they're not skinny".

i'll get to that - this is fun - but i gotta run for a minute.

682 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 4:33:55pm

re: #677 Macha

At what point does the flexibility decline? I know that children are able to learn a second or even more languages easily, but once in adulthood most of us have difficulty. The exception seems to be that some adults have a facility for languages. I've always likened it to a facility for art or music. Don't really know though.

Why can't everyone start posting after 7pm EST when many people come home so I don't have to feel guilty coming in at the tail (no jokes intended)?

I read this article in the WSJ this morning. Sounded to me that they had an issue with teachers who are supposed to be teaching in English and don't have good command of English; not just an "accent".

I happen to agree with that.

Who cares at what point flexibility declines? You can be sure it is well after high school, or is it the teachers you are concerned about, or the students?

683 Achilles Tang  Fri, Apr 30, 2010 4:38:51pm

re: #678 Aceofwhat?

it's puberty-related. i was 11.5 when we moved to Belgium so i just squeaked under the limit. got to know a few people who were 2-3yrs older than me...they were helpless in French. it's really amazing.

Yes, I agree about puberty. Anyone at any age after puberty can get a mate (either sex) and learn the partners language tout suite.

684 advocatusdiaboli  Sat, May 1, 2010 1:47:49pm

Have you actually read the text of the bill? I am sure not, because if you did then you wouldn't be saying what you just did. Go read the New York TImes Op Ed by the law professor who drafted the bill who provides fact-based rebuttal to all the critics.

"Presumably, the government lawyers who do so will actually read the law, something its critics don’t seem to have done. The arguments we’ve heard against it either misrepresent its text or are otherwise inaccurate. As someone who helped draft the statute, I will rebut the major criticisms individually..." (Kris W. Kobach, a law professor at the University of Missouri at Kansas City, was Attorney General John Ashcroft’s chief adviser on immigration law and border security from 2001 to 2003.)

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

685 Right Brain  Sat, May 1, 2010 4:14:33pm

The Arizona legislature voted to uphold existing federal law. That's all.

This has to be one of the most brilliant moves I have ever seen by a state legislature and hats off to them for thinking of it: the Supremacy Clause of the American constitution (Article 6 for the Leftovers who need to look it up) makes Federal law supreme to state law, if there is conflict between a Federal law and a state law the Federal law will be followed and the state law ignored. By voting to uphold Federal law the AZ legislature has done an end run around any attempt to thwart their statute. Brilliant move.

Of course Obama had another trick up his sleeve as well: since this entire AZ move was crime based Obama ordered any convicted criminal in the country illegally and living in the Southwest to be deported. 596 El creepos to date have been arrested by the FBI in the past two weeks and are being deported. Once the crime problem declines I suspect this move by the state to enforce the national law will recede and Arizona continue ignoring Federal immigration laws like everyone else.

686 PAUL_MACDONALD  Sat, May 1, 2010 4:46:52pm

re: #644 Aceofwhat?

aaand you're back to pretending that i like the bill. i agree with your statement that you should move along.

Christ. Ok, so initially, you thought something like this might be a good idea because accents make learning hard, or something. That soon became one of those highly annoying "just asking questions" routines after being asked to present something that might back your theory.

You now agree that dismissing teachers with accents is stupid because no one bothered to define the thickness of said accent? So the point of your initial post was non-existent.

I think I should stand still so that you may catch up.

687 PAUL_MACDONALD  Sat, May 1, 2010 4:56:52pm

re: #644 Aceofwhat?

aaand you're back to pretending that i like the bill. i agree with your statement that you should move along.

Christ. Initially, you thought that the intent of not hiring people with thick accents might be a good idea. When it was pointed out that there was no definition of "thick", you began to backpedal. It got even more interesting when it was discovered that there was no data to back the claim in the first place and that the initial item put forward might have been in error.

Your initial post was irrelevant. The intent of the bill is discrimination. I think I should stand still so that you can catch up.

688 The Rebbitzen  Sat, May 1, 2010 7:07:21pm

As a Phoenician, you are all missing the point. If you can't speak English, you will never have a chance to move up in life.You will always be cleaning a house or mowing a lawn. It is not acceptable to have a teacher who cannot speak English teaching early English learners. My daughter and son-in-law are both teachers and are both completely bilingual. Many of their peers are as well. They do it to be able to communicate with their students and their parents. We need standards in order to get up from the bottom of the state education rankings. I walk into the Hispanic "Rancho Market" supermarket in my neighborhood and the cashiers only speak Spanish to me. They just assume that is the language I speak. I come from immigrants who learned English as quickly as possible in order to move up in life. Not learning English is also dangerous. Our road signs are in English and we have "suicide lanes" at rush hour. I have seen many accidents caused by not understanding the signs (out of towner's/seniors/and yes Hispanic drivers). Come spend some time here if you want to understand the issues we face in Arizona. Don't believe everything you read in the press, even the WSJ.

689 Obdicut  Mon, May 3, 2010 6:55:36am

re: #688 The Rebbitzen

Congrats on not reading the thread.

690 search4truth  Wed, May 5, 2010 10:56:25am

Actually Rebbitzen is spot on. To even become a citizen it's required that one learns english. I would never expect to go to france and demand that they speak to me in English. I am surprised at the demands of others to force the USA to speak other languages when we've been speaking english for several hundreds of years. Even the last generation encouraged their children to learn english. It's only been recently we've fallen into the "let's not enforce that" type of style.

691 wrenchwench  Wed, May 5, 2010 11:05:03am

re: #690 search4truth

To even become a citizen it's required that one learns english.

Not true. One can be born here, of course speaking only baby-talk, and be a citizen. And grow up in a non-English-speaking household, still not know English, and continue to be a citizen.

692 wrenchwench  Wed, May 5, 2010 11:08:45am

re: #684 advocatusdiaboli

You apparently missed this post.

The main guy taking credit for the new law is Kris Kobach — a Birther who’s running for Kansas secretary of state. But his Birtherism is the least offensive thing about Kobach.

That guy has negative credibility.

693 search4truth  Wed, May 5, 2010 11:16:58am

re: #691 wrenchwench

True but to actually go through the motions of becoming an english citizen, you need to know english as a requirement. To go to school which I'm privvy to as I'm in the school system, we teach english to the spanish speaking children. It's really not a big deal that it seems the media and special interest groups wish to make it. The children learn english just fine.

694 wrenchwench  Wed, May 5, 2010 11:33:10am

re: #693 search4truth

True but to actually go through the motions of becoming an english citizen, you need to know english as a requirement. To go to school which I'm privvy to as I'm in the school system, we teach english to the spanish speaking children. It's really not a big deal that it seems the media and special interest groups wish to make it. The children learn english just fine.


Huh?

Yeah, learning English is not a big deal, and citizens are generally better off if they do. However, you made an incorrect statement, and I thought it was a good idea to point that out. Now I see that accuracy is not one of your concerns.

Carry on.

695 search4truth  Wed, May 5, 2010 11:34:03am

It is near impossible as a "melting pot" that America is that all our road signs be turned into 10+ different language signs per sign. I think people get their panties in a wad over making sure people know english. I work with Spanish people all the time on English and they are excited to learn it. Sometimes I think we want to molly coddle people because we think it'd be hard if it were them and perhaps there is an element of truth about that..but since I work with spanish people all the time I see how earnest they are in learning our language and have some pride in that. I see nothing wrong with making sure our teachers can actually speak english and be understood.

696 wrenchwench  Wed, May 5, 2010 11:36:38am
Carry on.


...and carry on he did.

697 search4truth  Wed, May 5, 2010 11:51:42am

re: #696 wrenchwench


surely we have the same rights to post our opinions here. I didn't realize you felt the need to comment when I wish to comment. Interesting. You for some reason feel the need to stifle dissenting opinion.

698 wrenchwench  Wed, May 5, 2010 11:59:00am

re: #697 search4truth

I didn't even know you were dissenting. I thought you were just inaccurate. Sorry to make you feel stifled. Post a few more comments and maybe the feeling will go away.


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