It absolutely is a statement on where the GOP stands.

On the island of oblivion.

Cool. A moonbat Democrat for a change.

I am of a mind to simply give up on this debate ... the reality may not come crushing down while I still live ... maybe not even [in a material fashion] during the lives of my kids [4 and 6]. During the lives of their kids? Almost certainly. Whatever. "Thanks for all the fish."

I tried to watch it earlier this evening but turned it off half way through
Rep Sensengerger's rant full of debunked deniers talking points.

Ooops. I first read that as a democrat going with the decision. My bad. Too bad.

C-SPAN has video of this theater of the absurd. I haven’t been able to psych myself up to watch it yet.

I'm guessing it is denier porn. I won't watch.

I repeat, proud and silly apes, pretentious that they are an immortal peak of creation in a universe that guarantees their mortality, swinging in trees unaware that their jungle is burning...

If the GOP wins back the presidency, we can guarantee the collapse of our civilization through flood, famine, drought, plague and war over diminishing resources. Tipping points are real and we are marching towards them. The GOP will make certain that nothing gets done in time if they can. The critical time to start acting is now. We do not have ten years to think about starting to do half of what might have worked ten years ago.

But if we let that happen, we have it coming anyway.

re: #2 Naso Tang

Cool. A moonbat Democrat for a change.

No - actually, Rep. Markey called the hearings to restore public confidence in climate science.

re: #8 Charles

No - actually, Rep. Markey called the hearings to restore public confidence in climate science.

Feel free to delete my inanity.

Scientists are important. They're really important. They're one of the absolute foundations of Western society.

I do not understand why the GOP thinks that hostility to science is anything other than absolutely terrible for the nation.

We need technology. We need scientists in order to create technology. If nothing else, for national defense, we need to have the absolute best scientists, and a culture of respect for them.

Instead, the GOP treats scientists with suspicion and disdain, as though the whole field of science is pulling a fast one.

Climate change is not the only area where the GOP is blinkered and asinine in its dismissal of solid science, but it is the area that threatens US national security the most.

No one can claim to be looking out for our national security without acknowledging the threat of climate change.

re: #4 Reginald Perrin

Sensenbrenner knows that if he repeats something long enough then there will be people who will hear, and believe him.

Truth is not important to politics like this, only influencing people.

If the American electorate won't demand probity from their leaders then we probably won't get it.

re: #3 enigma3535

I am of a mind to simply give up on this debate ... the reality may not come crushing down while I still live ... maybe not even [in a material fashion] during the lives of my kids [4 and 6]. During the lives of their kids? Almost certainly. Whatever. "Thanks for all the fish."

It is starting now. You will feel the real pinch of it in your lifetime. There will be more and more floods. More and more crops will fail and more and more huge storms will hit land. There will be global food shortages. There will be some bugs that spread - that is a matter of time now. Insects and vermin are always amongst the first critters to migrate. The total collapse though of our civilization as we know it, give it 70-100 years.

The GOP is willfully ignorant. The cognitive dissonance.. It burns.

re: #12 LudwigVanQuixote

The total collapse though of our civilization as we know it, give it 70-100 years.

Nice.

Sorry, but OT - re: capping of the oil flow in the Gulf update

Captain: Lowering of box to contain Gulf oil delayed by fumes that could ignite - AP

re: #7 LudwigVanQuixote

If the GOP wins back the presidency, we can guarantee the collapse of our civilization through flood, famine, drought, plague and war over diminishing resources.

Please note that Democratic party Presidents don't have any better record for stemming US carbon emissions.

I suggest that the AGW is invariant under a change to the US president's political party.

"...quack non-scientist ranting loon Lord..."

and birther...

To the list of his eccentric views on climate change, Europe, HIV/Aids and ... well, most things, we can add his public subscription to the "birther" cause: the idea that Barack Obama may have been born in Kenya and is therefore not the legitimate president of the United States of America.[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

AND??

Where is Lord Monckton Wrong? - Discussion? - For the Rest of the Night I Suspect. -S-

Talking of deleting posts; while I haven't explored the new linkage/blog features, if these are like real personal blogs, with discussion, will the "owner" have delete/banning powers?

It seems that if that takes off Charles and Stinky could actually become overloaded.

re: #14 Racer X

Nice.

That is not an exaggeration. That is not hyperbole. Think about what a hot spell would do to crops even 50 years ago when we hadn't warmed nearly as much. A global average temperature is just that, a very large average. That means that some really hot spells will happen and only add up to say 3 degrees . But what does two or three really scorching days do to a crop? Ask a farmer. What does 20 or 40% less water do to a crop? Ask a farmer.

Of course, 2 degrees and that amount less fresh water inland is 2050.

re: #7 LudwigVanQuixote

If the GOP wins back the presidency, we can guarantee the collapse of our civilization through flood, famine, drought, plague

...
and pestilence. Don't forget the pestilence.

Tonight's purple gloaming, with a scrap of snow in the far distance on Mt. San Antonio (I think). The Towercam, Pacific time zone.

The evening serenity break.

re: #20 LudwigVanQuixote

Cool.

I'm gonna party like it's 1999.

re: #16 freetoken

Please note that Democratic party Presidents don't have any better record for stemming US carbon emissions.

I suggest that the AGW is invariant under a change to the US president's political party.

The Dems are pathetic, weak and divided on this issue. But, they at least believe it is real. That is half the battle.

re: #10 Obdicut

If it helps one win an election by crushing something, crush it ... its a genius strategy; until it is not. If, in the long run, it actually precipitates the erosion of the effectiveness of the US regarding our competitiveness in the current world order? That is not an issue in the current election cycle.

re: #12 LudwigVanQuixote

Don't you have a catchphrase for when this limey loon shows his nutty face?

re: #7 LudwigVanQuixote

The two main parties and their mutual squabbling are together productive of stasis and I say chuck them both.

re: #21 tradewind

...
and pestilence. Don't forget the pestilence.

Plague is pestilence. And I am not joking or making an exaggeration about that either. As climates shift, critters migrate into new areas. They bring disease into new regions that do not have immunities. This is a lock.

We are already seeing cases of Dengue fever in Italy.

re: #12 LudwigVanQuixote

there will be wars, and rumors of wars...

re: #7 LudwigVanQuixote

I repeat, proud and silly apes, pretentious that they are an immortal peak of creation in a universe that guarantees their mortality, swinging in trees unaware that their jungle is burning...

If the GOP wins back the presidency, we can guarantee the collapse of our civilization through flood, famine, drought, plague and war over diminishing resources. Tipping points are real and we are marching towards them. The GOP will make certain that nothing gets done in time if they can. The critical time to start acting is now. We do not have ten years to think about starting to do half of what might have worked ten years ago.

But if we let that happen, we have it coming anyway.

We'll leave a record of our folly, so when the cephalopods take our place as the heavy technology users, they won't make the same mistakes.

re: #23 Racer X
Damn... with incandescent light bulbs?

I'm watching as we are speaking. The GOP guys are buying the idiots testimony. They say we just don't understanding how he totally trashed all the scientists.

re: #10 Obdicut

Scientists are important. They're really important. They're one of the absolute foundations of Western society.

I do not understand why the GOP thinks that hostility to science is anything other than absolutely terrible for the nation.

We need technology. We need scientists in order to create technology. If nothing else, for national defense, we need to have the absolute best scientists, and a culture of respect for them.

Instead, the GOP treats scientists with suspicion and disdain, as though the whole field of science is pulling a fast one.

Climate change is not the only area where the GOP is blinkered and asinine in its dismissal of solid science, but it is the area that threatens US national security the most.

No one can claim to be looking out for our national security without acknowledging the threat of climate change.

I blame the elitists trying to tell us how to live. / (roll eyes)

re: #29 brookly red

there will be wars, and rumors of wars...

Rumours of War

re: #10 Obdicut

The Modern Whig Party is specifically pro-science.

re: #26 Dark_Falcon

Don't you have a catchphrase for when this limey loon shows his nutty face?

You mean Lord Consanguinity?

Yeah, I really have no time for that inbred, swivel eyed, iguana faced fraud.

It is very important to note that Margarette Thatcher was actually the first major world leader - not Al Gore, to become openly concerned about the science of AGW back in the 80's.

Lord, Inbred, whose claim to fame is that he was a science advisor to a person who rejected his advice, based on the actual science.

I'm just a humble country lawyer with a degree in Truthology from Christian Tech!

Oh and a title...

re: #18 Dr. Shalit

AND??

Where is Lord Monckton Wrong? - Discussion? - For the Rest of the Night I Suspect. -S-

Wherever he stands, sits or lies.

re: #18 Dr. Shalit

AND??

Where is Lord Monckton Wrong? - Discussion? - For the Rest of the Night I Suspect. -S-

He cherry picks and fakes data to make his case. He's not a scientist, but plays one on TV.

re: #28 LudwigVanQuixote

LVQ -

In Italy, Agita is still way more common. -S-

re: #28 LudwigVanQuixote

Plague is pestilence. And I am not joking or making an exaggeration about that either. As climates shift, critters migrate into new areas. They bring disease into new regions that do not have immunities. This is a lock.

We are already seeing cases of Dengue fever in Italy.

perhaps a little DDT?

re: #29 brookly red
Yeah, that went sailing.
Preemptively, ' We already have wars, and as for rumors...'

Jesus. Lord fucking Morton in a Congressional hearing?

It's impossible that the GOP is uninformed about this buffoon by now. This is pure bad faith. They are just spitting on the public's face.

If you are a denier, fricken deny. Don't waste our time with your pithy comments or questions.

Monckdon quote: "Scientists playing with XBox 360 models." and "added CO2 is beneficial."

re: #24 LudwigVanQuixote

The Dems are pathetic, weak and divided on this issue. But, they at least believe it is real. That is half the battle.

If you are weak, winning half the battle is no better than losing.

Strength has to come from the American/Canadian/UK/.. people.
They have to be convinced of the science.

re: #38 b_sharp

b_sharp -

NOT Good Enough - I am More Specific when it comes to Sharpton - regarding the MOBS he can generate on a moments' notice. Your criticism is a MERE AD HOMINEM. -S-

Stewart is discussing Rentboy. 'Nite, all.

re: #36 LudwigVanQuixote

You mean Lord Consanguinity?

Yeah, I really have no time for that inbred, swivel eyed, iguana faced fraud.

It is very important to note that Margarette Thatcher was actually the first major world leader - not Al Gore, to become openly concerned about the science of AGW back in the 80's.

Lord, Inbred, whose claim to fame is that he was a science advisor to a person who rejected his advice, based on the actual science.

Monckton is like Sarah Palin in that way: The Margaret Thatcher he thinks of is only a marble myth. The real Lady Thatcher has always been a pragmatist and worked to see the world as it really is. By contrast, Monckton insists on seeing everything through his denier prism. He's not fit to wash her floor.

re: #18 Dr. Shalit

AND??

Where is Lord Monckton Wrong? - Discussion? - For the Rest of the Night I Suspect. -S-

Here, watch these. It is much easier than typing it all out.

part 2

re: #18 Dr. Shalit

AND??

Where is Lord Monckton Wrong? - Discussion? - For the Rest of the Night I Suspect. -S-

Yawn. Better trolls, please.

re: #42 tradewind

Yeah, that went sailing.
Preemptively, ' We already have wars, and as for rumors...'

That's great, it starts with an earthquake, birds and snakes, an aeroplane -
Lenny Bruce is not afraid. Eye of a hurricane, listen to yourself churn -
world serves its own needs, regardless of your own needs. Feed it up a knock,
speed, grunt no, strength no. Ladder structure clatter with fear of height,
down height. Wire in a fire, represent the seven games in a government for
hire and a combat site. Left her, wasn't coming in a hurry with the furies
breathing down your neck. Team by team reporters baffled, trump, tethered
crop. Look at that low plane! Fine then. Uh oh, overflow, population,
common group, but it'll do. Save yourself, serve yourself. World serves its
own needs, listen to your heart bleed. Tell me with the rapture and the
reverent in the right - right. You vitriolic, patriotic, slam, fight, bright
light, feeling pretty psyched.

OT:

Appears that the drop in the Dow today may have been attributable to a hack. Some people made a *shitpot* of money.

[Link: money.cnn.com...]

Those pesky hackers and crackers!

This is really bad.

re: #12 LudwigVanQuixote

Maybe ... IMHO, your time-line is a bit accelerated.

Recently, I have been conflicted regarding 2 possible outcomes related climate change ... one of inevitable civilization collapse regardless of whatever humanity can do and another of the inevitability of humans being able to figure out how to fix any problem while still evolving and prospering ... in either regard, I find it doubtful that significant pain will not be involved in the process over the next century or 2.

re: #46 b_sharp

If you are weak, winning half the battle is no better than losing.

Strength has to come from the American/Canadian/UK/.. people.
They have to be convinced of the science.

Which is why people like me keep writing about the actual science day in and day out.

re: #24 LudwigVanQuixote

The Dems are pathetic, weak and divided on this issue. But, they at least believe it is real. That is half the battle.

Well, I guess I don't believe that.

When I consider the noise machine against AGW, I have to ask myself which came first, the chicken or the egg?

In other words, the denial noise machine was created by a desire to resist change, not because of science, or ignorance there of.

Fear of economic loss, or loss of political independence, comes from primitive human emotions, not an elaborate argument against science.

As I mentioned downstairs, creationism is more a symptom than a cause.

Likewise, AGW science-denial (which is a cousin of creationism) likewise is a reaction, a symptom of an underlying cause or causes.

re: #45 avanti

avanti -

Carbon Dioxide IS Beneficial, IF YOU ARE A PLANT, it would be what you BREATHE. -S-

re: #45 avanti

Monckdon quote: "Scientists playing with XBox 360 models." and "added CO2 is beneficial."

Memo to Monckton: Your own army uses XBox models to run training simulations for its troops. Extract Digit.

Good quote from a Dem just now: "Hold on Lord, I'd like to hear from the scientists"

re: #43 Nimed
Then again, it's just possible that the priorities are not really all that, when it comes to what Congress is tackling right now.
Not that it's not important. Just that it may have been pushed down a notch by oh, I don't know...
The economy, the unemployment rate, that health care thing, reforming the financial industry, Pakistani wannabombers, etc, etc.
It's Congress, and they have to get re-upped every two years. Just saying that at their town hall meetings back home, assuming they still have them, the topic of climate change probably won't be number one.

re: #51 Nimed

Nimed -

"Yawn" is not a rebuttal - LVQ is doing better - Two (2) Youtubes that I am watching/listening to as I type this. -S-

re: #38 b_sharp

Wherever he stands, sits or lies.

Come on. I make a brilliant pun about a lying sack of shit, based on an amphibolous comment and I only get two dings?

Whats up with that? :P

re: #56 freetoken

Well, I guess I don't believe that.

When I consider the noise machine against AGW, I have to ask myself which came first, the chicken or the egg?

In other words, the denial noise machine was created by a desire to resist change, not because of science, or ignorance there of.

Fear of economic loss, or loss of political independence, comes from primitive human emotions, not an elaborate argument against science.

As I mentioned downstairs, creationism is more a symptom than a cause.

Likewise, AGW science-denial (which is a cousin of creationism) likewise is a reaction, a symptom of an underlying cause or causes.

Your point is taken, but, if people in a leadership position are actually convinced to lead for a change it could make a difference.

I am not optimistic. However, I will take a fraction of a chance of the Dems doing something about this over no chance at all from the ignorant and cave dwelling luddite GOP doing anything any day.

re: #63 LudwigVanQuixote

Seen this?
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) – More than 250 U.S. scientists on Thursday defended climate change research against "political assaults" and warned that any delay in tackling global warming heightens the risk of a planet-wide catastrophe.

re: #46 b_sharp

They have to be convinced of the science.

Got you covered on that one.

Scientific research allowed a dyslexic, nearly deaf cardiologist to figure out how to repair a Congenital Heart Defect. She convinced a Southern Born Surgeon named Alfred Blalock that she was right and on November 29, 1944, these two fixed their first broken heart.

1 in 125 people in the US are born with a Congenital Heart defect and every one of us owe our lives to Dr. Helen Taussig.

14 of the first 70 patients to undergo heart surgery died during or soon after the operation. But they kept at it, and they learned how to do it correctly. Today 96% of all children who require open heart surgery survive, and 90% or more reach adulthood.

Science, baby. All science.

Now ranking Monckton over the coals and pointing out the GOP could not sent a scientist, not even a real Lord before the committee.
The GOP is apologizing for his harsh treatment.

re: #54 enigma3535

Maybe ... IMHO, your time-line is a bit accelerated.

Recently, I have been conflicted regarding 2 possible outcomes related climate change ... one of inevitable civilization collapse regardless of whatever humanity can do and another of the inevitability of humans being able to figure out how to fix any problem while still evolving and prospering ... in either regard, I find it doubtful that significant pain will not be involved in the process over the next century or 2.

Pain? How about huge human migrations and significant conflicts over potable water? Take a look at the ravages of the Pine Bark Beetle in the west, the whipsawing of weather events in temperate zones, and the faster cycling of El Nino and La Nina events in the Pacific.

It's a brave new world, sadly. The time to act is now. Reactors need to be placed immediately at coal power stations. The Navy has some good designs. But we need to change the fuel to Thorium. Little waste, no weapons capacity, and thus we can sell them to everybody.

re: #66 avanti

You're a strong man, to watch all hour and a half of that thing.

re: #55 LudwigVanQuixote

Which is why people like me keep writing about the actual science day in and day out.

Keep at it, LVQ! Hammer it home!

re: #60 tradewind

tradewind -

"AGW" - Now Known as Climate Change - will be lucky to make it into the "Top Ten." -S-

re: #66 avanti

Now ranking Monckton over the coals and pointing out the GOP could not sent a scientist, not even a real Lord before the committee.
The GOP is apologizing for his harsh treatment.

Will the GOP apologize to the American people for wasting their time by putting him up there in the first place?

re: #47 Dr. Shalit

b_sharp -

NOT Good Enough - I am More Specific when it comes to Sharpton - regarding the MOBS he can generate on a moments' notice. Your criticism is a MERE AD HOMINEM. -S-

Sorry, I don't have time to write the novel length paper needed to list all of his errors and lies.

Even the data he uses is confused. Depending on the year he uses the data, he uses some combination of RSS/GISS/Hadley/UAH, at times switching randomly between them in his graphs.

re: #67 austin_blue

Pain? How about huge human migrations and significant conflicts over potable water? Take a look at the ravages of the Pine Bark Beetle in the west, the whipsawing of weather events in temperate zones, and the faster cycling of El Nino and La Nina events in the Pacific.

It's a brave new world, sadly. The time to act is now. Reactors need to be placed immediately at coal power stations. The Navy has some good designs. But we need to change the fuel to Thorium. Little waste, no weapons capacity, and thus we can sell them to everybody.

THAT's what i wanted to see on an LGF Climate Change thread --

BRAINSTORMING ON HOW TO FIX THINGS!!

Monckton can deny that we humans are the cause of it until his face turns blue, but nobody can / should deny that we humans will come up with the SOLUTION for it.

So let's get those brains storming!

re: #68 freetoken

You're a strong man, to watch all hour and a half of that thing.

It's sad really, and would be funny if the issue was not so important.

re: #73 Querent

THAT's what i wanted to see on an LGF Climate Change thread --

BRAINSTORMING ON HOW TO FIX THINGS!!

Monckton can deny that we humans are the cause of it until his face turns blue, but nobody can / should deny that we humans will come up with the SOLUTION for it.

So let's get those brains storming!

/Oh come on, didn't Sarah Palin tell us you can't find the solution until you can prove what the cause of the problem is?

re: #55 LudwigVanQuixote

Which is why people like me keep writing about the actual science day in and day out.

I'm glad you do. I'll do the same.

Jedi A-holes

re: #57 Dr. Shalit

avanti -

Carbon Dioxide IS Beneficial, IF YOU ARE A PLANT, it would be what you BREATHE. -S-

Our ecological system is about balance. I'm sorry that a lot of folks don't understand that. I'm assuming that since you know plants need CO2, then you know they produce the oxygen we breathe. I don't want to get all tree-hugger on everyone, but we are destroying the lungs of this planet at an alarming rate. One is increasing while the other decreases. There goes our balance.

re: #62 b_sharp

Come on. I make a brilliant pun about a lying sack of shit, based on an amphibolous comment and I only get two dings?

Whats up with that? :P

I chuckled, therefore I dinged.

re: #75 jamesfirecat

/Oh come on, didn't Sarah Palin tell us you can't find the solution until you can prove what the cause of the problem is?

Cold air from Canada + Hot Air from Washington DC...

B )

re: #73 Querent

THAT's what i wanted to see on an LGF Climate Change thread --

BRAINSTORMING ON HOW TO FIX THINGS!!

Monckton can deny that we humans are the cause of it until his face turns blue, but nobody can / should deny that we humans will come up with the SOLUTION for it.

So let's get those brains storming!

We did write a health care reform bill here.

re: #61 Dr. Shalit

Nimed -

"Yawn" is not a rebuttal - LVQ is doing better - Two (2) Youtubes that I am watching/listening to as I type this. -S-

LVQ is being courteous. You can learn all about Morton's crackpottery in a 5 minute google search. But fine, just in case you're serious here is a point by point rebuttal of a Monckton's letter published in the American Physical Society Forum.
[Link: www.altenergyaction.org...]

Indian lady singing We Will Rock You

re: #57 Dr. Shalit

avanti -

Carbon Dioxide IS Beneficial, IF YOU ARE A PLANT, it would be what you BREATHE. -S-

Yet, just as anything else, too much is not so good. If the nitrogen and water do not keep up with the CO₂, the plant is worse off and different plants react differently to increased level of CO₂.

Moncton's intention is not to trumpet the benefit to plants but to justify ignoring the problem. Its a misdirection at best.

re: #57 Dr. Shalit

avanti -

Carbon Dioxide IS Beneficial, IF YOU ARE A PLANT, it would be what you BREATHE. -S-

Are you trying for humor?

Water is beneficial unless you are drowning.

The fact is that a few degree shift in temperature causes crops to die out precipitously. This does not include the effects of less rainfall of the proliferation of insects that is associated with increased CO2 levels.

Here is a PNAS on some of that.

[Link: www.agcarbonmarkets.com...]

re: #83 Racer X

I've talked to her before. She works for Dell Support.
/

And in another revolting development, thar she re-blows.
Iceland, you're gonna owe the world a bunch of offsets for this one...//
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

re: #86 Cannadian Club Akbar

I've talked to her before. She works for Dell Support.
/

I think she moonlights at HP, too.

re: #65 SteveC

I have acquaintances that are anti-science. I tell them to quit going to the doctor, then. Quit flying. Quit driving a car. Science.

It had to be done.

re: #84 b_sharp

Yet, just as anything else, too much is not so good. If the nitrogen and water do not keep up with the CO₂, the plant is worse off and different plants react differently to increased level of CO₂.

Moncton's intention is not to trumpet the benefit to plants but to justify ignoring the problem. Its a misdirection at best.

And in this case an actual lie. As CO2 levels go up, we are looking at a near total failure of American agriculture.

re: #70 Dr. Shalit

tradewind -

"AGW" - Now Known as Climate Change - will be lucky to make it into the "Top Ten." -S-

Do you know why it is now known as CC?

re: #21 tradewind

...
and pestilence. Don't forget the pestilence.

Exotic species can run riot over the native ones that are no longer suited to the climate. Already we are seeing pine beetles take out whole forests. With what used to be typical weather, these beetles wouldn't make such inroads. The trees would be healthier, better able to fight them off.

Pestilence now already

re: #63 LudwigVanQuixote

LVQ -

Back in the "Day" when I learned about "Luddites" i was taught that they were the folks who wished to smash the machines and substitute/maintain Human/Animal Labor. From that day to this, machines require "Energy" i.e. Fuel, to keep them running. Every solution for "AGW" I have seen reduces fuel availability, and while efficiencies in consumption are possible, the laws of thermodynamics eventually kick in and shut machines down. Where, pray tell is that not a more sophisticated "Luddite" solution??

-S-

re: #87 tradewind

And in another revolting development, thar she re-blows.
Iceland, you're gonna owe the world a bunch of offsets for this one...//
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Planes on the ground
Planes on the ground
Lookin' like a fool with
Your planes on the ground!

re: #93 Dr. Shalit

Our consumption could stand a correction.

How can one be 'anti-science'?

Science is not political. It is not settled. Science is the ultimate fact-check-ur-ass. Smart guys try to prove something, while other smart guys attempt to disprove it.

re: #90 LudwigVanQuixote

And in this case an actual lie. As CO2 levels go up, we are looking at a near total failure of American agriculture.

Maybe. We will definitely see a shift in crop zones and growing seasons. I think the bigger problem will be in rainfall patterns.

re: #54 enigma3535

Maybe ... IMHO, your time-line is a bit accelerated.

Recently, I have been conflicted regarding 2 possible outcomes related climate change ... one of inevitable civilization collapse regardless of whatever humanity can do and another of the inevitability of humans being able to figure out how to fix any problem while still evolving and prospering ... in either regard, I find it doubtful that significant pain will not be involved in the process over the next century or 2.

Well in my professional opinion, we consistently see that the models are too conservative.

Ice sheets are going much more quickly than predicted.

Methane release is occurring much faster and over broader regions than predicted.

Ocean saturation is coming faster than modeled and absorption of the seas is going down.

This all adds up to the worst case scenarios being much more likely than the mid-range ones.

If you wish, I will track down the relevant papers for you to read.

re: #78 tnguitarist

"tng" -

YOU GOT THE PROGRAM! Even the Talmud recognizes this with regard to the Messiah - "...First Plant the Tree, then Meet the Messiah..." -S-

re: #53 austin_blue

OT:

Appears that the drop in the Dow today may have been attributable to a hack. Some people made a *shitpot* of money.

[Link: money.cnn.com...]

Those pesky hackers and crackers!

This is really bad.

Market hysteria? Is such a thing possible?

re: #93 Dr. Shalit

LVQ -

Back in the "Day" when I learned about "Luddites" i was taught that they were the folks who wished to smash the machines and substitute/maintain Human/Animal Labor. From that day to this, machines require "Energy" i.e. Fuel, to keep them running. Every solution for "AGW" I have seen reduces fuel availability, and while efficiencies in consumption are possible, the laws of thermodynamics eventually kick in and shut machines down. Where, pray tell is that not a more sophisticated "Luddite" solution??

-S-

The law of thermodynamics also insist that human/animal labor will also run out eventually as well.

Some day the sun will stop giving off heat.

Life sucks like that...

re: #63 LudwigVanQuixote

Your point is taken, but, if people in a leadership position are actually convinced to lead for a change it could make a difference.

I am not optimistic. However, I will take a fraction of a chance of the Dems doing something about this over no chance at all from the ignorant and cave dwelling luddite GOP doing anything any day.

Which is why I hold my nose and vote Dem if the Dem will credibly pledge to act on green energy. Notwithstanding everything else. Because nothing else matters as much.

But if they'd just accommodate the right wing on a few points where the right wing is right, like, there's a limit to how much you can spend before you become Big Greece, they'd have a more secure platform from which to Save The World.

re: #78 tnguitarist

Our ecological system is about balance. I'm sorry that a lot of folks don't understand that. I'm assuming that since you know plants need CO2, then you know they produce the oxygen we breathe. I don't want to get all tree-hugger on everyone, but we are destroying the lungs of this planet at an alarming rate. One is increasing while the other decreases. There goes our balance.

The planet is in no danger. People, on the other hand...

If there should come a time when there's 8 billion people on earth, and only enough oxygen for 5 billion -- 3 billion will die. Voila, balance restored.

If every single person on earth were to die tomorrow, the earth would survive just fine.

re: #93 Dr. Shalit

LVQ -

Back in the "Day" when I learned about "Luddites" i was taught that they were the folks who wished to smash the machines and substitute/maintain Human/Animal Labor. From that day to this, machines require "Energy" i.e. Fuel, to keep them running. Every solution for "AGW" I have seen reduces fuel availability, and while efficiencies in consumption are possible, the laws of thermodynamics eventually kick in and shut machines down. Where, pray tell is that not a more sophisticated "Luddite" solution??

-S-

Terrific straw man.

Now instead of erecting a straw man that is easy to burn, how about dealing with an accurate representation of current ideas.

re: #100 Bagua

Market hysteria? Is such a thing possible?

Dogs and cats are already sleeping together!

re: #73 Querent

Carbon sequestering in the ocean by using
iron to cause plankton blooms.

Good night all.

re: #97 austin_blue

Maybe. We will definitely see a shift in crop zones and growing seasons. I think the bigger problem will be in rainfall patterns.

In the South, it seems like we have switched to a monsoon-like climate. Gone are the four seasons, replaced by a wet and a dry season.

re: #93 Dr. Shalit

LVQ -

Back in the "Day" when I learned about "Luddites" i was taught that they were the folks who wished to smash the machines and substitute/maintain Human/Animal Labor. From that day to this, machines require "Energy" i.e. Fuel, to keep them running. Every solution for "AGW" I have seen reduces fuel availability, and while efficiencies in consumption are possible, the laws of thermodynamics eventually kick in and shut machines down. Where, pray tell is that not a more sophisticated "Luddite" solution??

-S-

OK I have to ask, are you trying to be an asshole?

Obviously the solutions are getting off of fossil fuels. The technologies that would allow us to do that are the very ones these neo-luddites would smash.

The solutions are in order: Nuclear, Smart Grid, Solar, Wind, Electric Vehicles.

re: #73 Querent

THAT's what i wanted to see on an LGF Climate Change thread --

BRAINSTORMING ON HOW TO FIX THINGS!!

I agree and I've been beating that drum a while now. At some point you just have to divert the effort from trying to educate the willfully ignorant and go about the business of fixing things. Pick the low-hanging fruit first, there is so much to do just by reducing waste in our energy usage. No single idea is going to make a huge impact, but thousands of small things will add up. The best part is, if we make significant cuts in energy usage, we'll all benefit from the lower energy prices that will follow.

Convert schools go 4 longer days per week. Cut the US Mail delivery to 3 days a week. Time the stop lights to keep traffic flowing on major roads. Discourage drive-through fast food lanes and get people to park the SUV and wait inside, Set up highway repair projects to avoid creating mile-long traffic jams, there are a million things we could do.

Arguing with idiots aint getting us anywhere.

re: #98 LudwigVanQuixote

Ice sheets are going much more quickly than predicted.

Methane release is occurring much faster and over broader regions than predicted.

Ocean saturation is coming faster than modeled and absorption of the seas is going down.

Aha!! So you admit your predictions and models are no good!!

_{Remember, every word you write or speak can and will be used against you.}

re: #103 sagehen

If every single person on earth were to die tomorrow, the earth would survive just fine.

Fuck that. I have tickets to next year's Opening Day!

re: #96 Racer X

How can one be 'anti-science'?

Science is not political. It is not settled. Science is the ultimate fact-check-ur-ass. Smart guys try to prove something, while other smart guys attempt to disprove it.

Antivaxers are anti-science. Anti-evolutionists are anti-science. Anti-HIV causes AIDS numbnuts are anti-science.

Now, what was your question?

re: #102 lostlakehiker

Which is why I hold my nose and vote Dem if the Dem will credibly pledge to act on green energy. Notwithstanding everything else. Because nothing else matters as much.

But if they'd just accommodate the right wing on a few points where the right wing is right, like, there's a limit to how much you can spend before you become Big Greece, they'd have a more secure platform from which to Save The World.

The platform is that growing a domestic energy economy will make us money and retain funds that are currently going over seas. Millions of jobs would be created. As a kicker, your energy costs would eventually go down, and the program would pay for itself since everyone will still be using electricity.

re: #57 Dr. Shalit

avanti -

Carbon Dioxide IS Beneficial, IF YOU ARE A PLANT, it would be what you BREATHE. -S-

HEAT is GOOD. IF it's COLD enough, SOMETIMES people FREEZE to DEATH. Now EXCUSE me WHILE i DROOL.

This far into a climate change-related thread and not ONE fart joke from a minimizer? FOR SHAME!

re: #110 freetoken

Aha!! So you admit your predictions and models are no good!!

_{Remember, every word you write or speak can and will be used against you.}

Lol,

I have been writing that the models are too conservative for sometime.

Of course, if we were only looking at the midrange predictions, it would still be an utter catastrophe.

re: #98 LudwigVanQuixote

Well in my professional opinion, we consistently see that the models are too conservative.

Ice sheets are going much more quickly than predicted.

Methane release is occurring much faster and over broader regions than predicted.

Ocean saturation is coming faster than modeled and absorption of the seas is going down.

This all adds up to the worst case scenarios being much more likely than the mid-range ones.

If you wish, I will track down the relevant papers for you to read.

Hey, Ludwig, you have another thread dedicated to you on the swamp. (You big dummy/)

re: #102 lostlakehiker

Which is why I hold my nose and vote Dem if the Dem will credibly pledge to act on green energy. Notwithstanding everything else. Because nothing else matters as much.

But if they'd just accommodate the right wing on a few points where the right wing is right, like, there's a limit to how much you can spend before you become Big Greece, they'd have a more secure platform from which to Save The World.

I hear you. Excellent post.

re: #101 jamesfirecat

jfc -

So it does, AND that eventual certainty seems to be Billions of "Orbits" away, barring an unexpected asteroid. -S-

re: #103 sagehen

The planet is in no danger. People, on the other hand...

If there should come a time when there's 8 billion people on earth, and only enough oxygen for 5 billion -- 3 billion will die. Voila, balance restored.

If every single person on earth were to die tomorrow, the earth would survive just fine.

You are correct. George Carlin spoke well on the subject. The Earth will shake us off like a bad cold.

I've often thought it should be re-branded. Instead of "Save The Planet", it should be "Save Our Asses". Maybe that would wake some people up?

re: #117 avanti

Hey, Ludwig, you have another thread dedicated to you on the swamp. (You big dummy/)

Lol, well after the thrashing I gave them last night, I am not surprised.

re: #108 LudwigVanQuixote

The solutions are in order: Nuclear, Smart Grid, Solar, Wind, Electric Vehicles.

Is that meant to be chronological order? I almost thought you were aiming for alphabetical order, with that squiggly z-ish symbol for electricity...

re: #114 Nimed

HEAT is GOOD. IF it's COLD enough, SOMETIMES people FREEZE to DEATH. Now EXCUSE me WHILE i DROOL.

Now that is snark.

re: #121 LudwigVanQuixote

Lol, well after the thrashing I gave them last night, I am not surprised.

"Honey, you were a little hard on the beaver last night."

/

re: #112 b_sharp

Antivaxers are anti-science. Anti-evolutionists are anti-science. Anti-HIV causes AIDS numbnuts are anti-science.

Now, what was your question?

My question was rhetorical. I don't understand them.

I think the time for fixing things regarding energy consumption has passed. The other prong to this revolves around what do we do with the mass migration of people from the coasts and soon to be unliveable areas?

It's all well and good (not to mention something I wholly support) to begin getting renewable and efficient energy sources online. I just don't think we can unbreak the egg.

Drastic lifestyle changes will be in order really soon. If there's one thing to take away from human behaviour (vis the crisis in Greece) is that drastic change isn't welcome.

re: #120 tnguitarist

You are correct. George Carlin spoke well on the subject. The Earth will shake us off like a bad cold.

I've often thought it should be re-branded. Instead of "Save The Planet", it should be "Save Our Asses". Maybe that would wake some people up?

Shit, too many of them are looking forward to The Rapture.

re: #93 Dr. Shalit

LVQ -

Back in the "Day" when I learned about "Luddites" i was taught that they were the folks who wished to smash the machines and substitute/maintain Human/Animal Labor. From that day to this, machines require "Energy" i.e. Fuel, to keep them running. Every solution for "AGW" I have seen reduces fuel availability, and while efficiencies in consumption are possible, the laws of thermodynamics eventually kick in and shut machines down. Where, pray tell is that not a more sophisticated "Luddite" solution??

-S-

You haven't seen Ludwigs and my solution, the Hard Green. We want lots and lots of energy for our industrial civilization. Efficiency is nice and we can surely more than double the amount of GDP we create per BTU consumed. But there is indeed a limit. Thus, in one order or another depending who's talking, we need to build a great number of nuclear power plants, tens of thousands of big windmills, some sort of massive solar energy installation [the R&D here is not complete and while major demonstration projects are in order, we can't quite make the grade economically with solar just yet, though the day is within sight], and a slew of other smaller efforts.

Once we get the kinks ironed out, we can run a profligate, riotously exuberant industrial civilization on solar energy. Though maybe we could be happy for a few decades with an energy-frugal but vigorous economy that had to scale back its ambitions for a time while we scaled up our solar energy skills and then our solar energy physical plant.

The end state I have in mind sees the whole world consuming more energy per capita than the U.S. uses now. Almost all of it wind and solar.

re: #114 Nimed

Nimed -

60 Degree swings in Farenheit temperature during the course of one Earth orbit is what we generally call weather, are used to and endure.

-S-

re: #113 LudwigVanQuixote

The platform is that growing a domestic energy economy will make us money and retain funds that are currently going over seas. Millions of jobs would be created. As a kicker, your energy costs would eventually go down, and the program would pay for itself since everyone will still be using electricity.

And one can only ask, how can a person who identifies as a "conservative" disagree with that? Its as if the Sean Hannitys of the world don't know what to think other than to simply disagree with whatever "liberals" say. If they had to craft a Mission Statement, I can't imagine what it would be other than to always take the counter-point to whatever liberals say.

re: #109 Mich-again

Carpooling doubles, triples and even quadruples the passenger miles per gallon.

We have barely started on some of these conservation techniques.

Good night again.

re: #121 LudwigVanQuixote

Lol, well after the thrashing I gave them last night, I am not surprised.

Crap, did I miss something?

re: #127 CarleeCork

Shit, too many of them are looking forward to The Rapture.

I think you have a valid point even though it's funny. Deep down some of them believe, "I'm not going to be here, so what the hell do I care?".

re: #125 Racer X

My question was rhetorical. I don't understand them.

Neither can I.

re: #115 bratwurst

This far into a climate change-related thread and not ONE fart joke from a minimizer? FOR SHAME!

Speaking of which - I heard on the radio today that Elvis actually died of prolonged constipation. It was why he always looked bloated. They said his autopsy revealed a 10 foot long colon - twice normal, and there was crap inside that had been stuck for months. Can you image the stench of an Elvis fart?

re: #122 sagehen

Is that meant to be chronological order? I almost thought you were aiming for alphabetical order, with that squiggly z-ish symbol for electricity...

Order of reducing emissions. Though electric vehicles should probably be a bit higher up.

Also it is a matter of what is most ready to deploy.

re: #93 Dr. Shalit

LVQ -

Back in the "Day" when I learned about "Luddites" i was taught that they were the folks who wished to smash the machines and substitute/maintain Human/Animal Labor. From that day to this, machines require "Energy" i.e. Fuel, to keep them running. Every solution for "AGW" I have seen reduces fuel availability, and while efficiencies in consumption are possible, the laws of thermodynamics eventually kick in and shut machines down. Where, pray tell is that not a more sophisticated "Luddite" solution??

-S-

The deniers say "energy", but what they really mean is coal for electricity and gasoline/diesel for transport.

What *we* mean is that electricity is the power that drives economies, and you do not have to generate it with fossil fuels.

Check out this very entrepreneurial Red Sea Pedestrian's proposal:

[Link: www.betterplace.com...]

This is brilliant shit. 200 miles miles between battery exchanges and a 45 second or less reside time. Israel is instituting a pilot program and it doesn't need hydrogen, which is fraught with problems.

re: #103 sagehen

The planet is in no danger. People, on the other hand...

If there should come a time when there's 8 billion people on earth, and only enough oxygen for 5 billion -- 3 billion will die. Voila, balance restored.

If every single person on earth were to die tomorrow, the earth would survive just fine.

There isn't going to be any oxygen shortage. Take a deep breath. There. Now you feel better. There's plenty more where that came from.

On the other hand, any calamity that could kill off our hardy and widely distributed species would have to be a hummdinger. Most other species would be swept away as well.

re: #100 Bagua

Market hysteria? Is such a thing possible?

*Created* market hysteria? Apparently so.

re: #128 lostlakehiker

You haven't seen Ludwigs and my solution, the Hard Green. We want lots and lots of energy for our industrial civilization. Efficiency is nice and we can surely more than double the amount of GDP we create per BTU consumed. But there is indeed a limit. Thus, in one order or another depending who's talking, we need to build a great number of nuclear power plants, tens of thousands of big windmills, some sort of massive solar energy installation [the R&D here is not complete and while major demonstration projects are in order, we can't quite make the grade economically with solar just yet, though the day is within sight], and a slew of other smaller efforts.

Once we get the kinks ironed out, we can run a profligate, riotously exuberant industrial civilization on solar energy. Though maybe we could be happy for a few decades with an energy-frugal but vigorous economy that had to scale back its ambitions for a time while we scaled up our solar energy skills and then our solar energy physical plant.

The end state I have in mind sees the whole world consuming more energy per capita than the U.S. uses now. Almost all of it wind and solar.

Or we could just evacuate a few hundred million of the healthiest and smartest through the stargate, and leave everyone else to rot. That's my plan, anyway.

re: #121 LudwigVanQuixote

Lol, well after the thrashing I gave them last night, I am not surprised.

Hell, they just ignored the posts you made here that blew them out of the water. Sort of reminded me of the hearing I just watched.
When confronted with facts, make fun of the scientists. i.e., they are paid hacks, politics is the drivers, it's a big ass scam, etc.

re: #128 lostlakehiker

You haven't seen Ludwigs and my solution, the Hard Green. We want lots and lots of energy for our industrial civilization. Efficiency is nice and we can surely more than double the amount of GDP we create per BTU consumed. But there is indeed a limit. Thus, in one order or another depending who's talking, we need to build a great number of nuclear power plants, tens of thousands of big windmills, some sort of massive solar energy installation [the R&D here is not complete and while major demonstration projects are in order, we can't quite make the grade economically with solar just yet, though the day is within sight], and a slew of other smaller efforts.

Once we get the kinks ironed out, we can run a profligate, riotously exuberant industrial civilization on solar energy. Though maybe we could be happy for a few decades with an energy-frugal but vigorous economy that had to scale back its ambitions for a time while we scaled up our solar energy skills and then our solar energy physical plant.

The end state I have in mind sees the whole world consuming more energy per capita than the U.S. uses now. Almost all of it wind and solar.

Fuck-n-eh. (Can I say that?)

re: #128 lostlakehiker

You haven't seen Ludwigs and my solution, the Hard Green. We want lots and lots of energy for our industrial civilization. Efficiency is nice and we can surely more than double the amount of GDP we create per BTU consumed. But there is indeed a limit. Thus, in one order or another depending who's talking, we need to build a great number of nuclear power plants, tens of thousands of big windmills, some sort of massive solar energy installation [the R&D here is not complete and while major demonstration projects are in order, we can't quite make the grade economically with solar just yet, though the day is within sight], and a slew of other smaller efforts.

Once we get the kinks ironed out, we can run a profligate, riotously exuberant industrial civilization on solar energy. Though maybe we could be happy for a few decades with an energy-frugal but vigorous economy that had to scale back its ambitions for a time while we scaled up our solar energy skills and then our solar energy physical plant.

The end state I have in mind sees the whole world consuming more energy per capita than the U.S. uses now. Almost all of it wind and solar.

Love that post, but solar farms are unlikely to ever be viable. However, one could make a tremendous impact if you deployed them on private homes or any building with a large roof area to occupant ratio.

re: #103 sagehen

The planet is in no danger. People, on the other hand...

If there should come a time when there's 8 billion people on earth, and only enough oxygen for 5 billion -- 3 billion will die. Voila, balance restored.

If every single person on earth were to die tomorrow, the earth would survive just fine.

Umm..no. Oxygen isn't the problem.

re: #129 Dr. Shalit

Nimed -

60 Degree swings in Farenheit temperature during the course of one Earth orbit is what we generally call weather, are used to and endure.

-S-

And there folks, is your answer. Weather and climate are not one in the same. It really is symbolic of some people's short-sighted view of things.

Out like that chimp baby's tongue.
Goodnight, ya'll.

re: #143 LudwigVanQuixote

Love that post, but solar farms are unlikely to ever be viable. However, one could make a tremendous impact if you deployed them on private homes or any building with a large roof area to occupant ratio.

How about solar panels on all the WalMarts?

re: #128 lostlakehiker

lostlakehiker -

Believe it (or else?) we generally agree here - I am ecumenical when it comes to energy. Glad to see a wind farm at Cape Cod will finally happen, wish we had them here, offshore, at Asbury Park, NJ - I would sell them as a tourist attraction! -S-

The heat is risin'
The past is callin'

re: #140 sagehen

Or we could just evacuate a few hundred million of the healthiest and smartest through the stargate, and leave everyone else to rot. That's my plan, anyway.

Your plan stinks.

re: #144 austin_blue

Umm..no. Oxygen isn't the problem.

Yet.

Depending how quickly we deforest the Amazon, or Africa, it could well be.

re: #129 Dr. Shalit

Nimed -

60 Degree swings in Farenheit temperature during the course of one Earth orbit is what we generally call weather, are used to and endure.

-S-

We be talking about the ratio of energy gittin' here and energy leavin' here.

That swing is compensated for on 'the other side'. (See Predator II gonjaman)

re: #147 CarleeCork

How about solar panels on all the WalMarts?

And shopping malls.

re: #147 CarleeCork

How about solar panels on all the WalMarts?

Problem solved. I think that would give us a surplus.

re: #145 tnguitarist

And there folks, is your answer. Weather and climate are not one in the same. It really is symbolic of some people's short-sighted view of things.

Hell, past civilizations have completely vanished because of cyclical climate change (Nubian Kingdon comes to mind). This stuff is coming so quickly that it's really going to be difficult to adapt.

BTW, Monckton wrapped up the hearing by saying that global warming even if true might be beneficial and if not, we'll adapt. What a dangerous idiot.

re: #137 austin_blue

The deniers say "energy", but what they really mean is coal for electricity and gasoline/diesel for transport.

What *we* mean is that electricity is the power that drives economies, and you do not have to generate it with fossil fuels.

Check out this very entrepreneurial Red Sea Pedestrian's proposal:

[Link: www.betterplace.com...]

This is brilliant shit. 200 miles miles between battery exchanges and a 45 second or less reside time. Israel is instituting a pilot program and it doesn't need hydrogen, which is fraught with problems.

Go figure, religious Israelis, who have a religion that says we were created as a gardener and a steward of the Earth take this seriously. Secular ones really just don't want to die in an eco-collapse and they are into science. Rightwing ones really don't want to buy oil from Egypt. The Military doesn't want oil reserves to be a security issue such that they run out of fuel in the middle of a conflict.

Hmmm...

In other words, this is one case where morality, science, realpolitik and security all come together.

re: #57 Dr. Shalit

avanti -

Carbon Dioxide IS Beneficial, IF YOU ARE A PLANT, it would be what you BREATHE. -S-

Tell that to the plants in this video (~0:50 mark).

Sure, plants use CO2, but to say "It's all good" is a misinformed talking point used by idiots and liars. You've never struck me as either, so I'd like it if you'd put that worthless talking point in the garbage heap of stupidity where it belongs.

re: #147 CarleeCork

How about solar panels on all the WalMarts?

Exactly. Those are exactly the sorts of buildings that would benefit from Solar.

An example of what would not would be a high rise.

re: #140 sagehen

Or we could just evacuate a few hundred million of the healthiest and smartest through the stargate, and leave everyone else to rot. That's my plan, anyway.

Been there, done that, ain't no fast food joints. Ain't gonna work.

re: #158 Slumbering Behemoth

Tell that to the plants in this video (~0:50 mark).

Sure, plants use CO2, but to say "It's all good" is a misinformed talking point used by idiots and liars. You've never struck me as either, so I'd like it if you'd put that worthless talking point in the garbage heap of stupidity where it belongs.

BTW, don't now how my handle ended up atop that comment, but it was not mine.

To add the perfect musical accompaniment to this discussion, Urgent by Foreigner just came on my XM radio.

re: #161 avanti

BTW, don't now how my handle ended up atop that comment, but it was not mine.

He quoted Dr. S and Dr S. quoted you.

Watching the UK election returns... If indeed the Tories take control, I imagine the usual suspects in the US right-o-sphere will try to make something of it, as if the Tories are even close to the Tea Partyism that is raging in the US right wing.

What is also clear, from the vote totals, is that the "left" (Lib Dems and Greens plus Labor) has many more votes in total than the Tories, by a wide margin.

Furthermore, looking at the map, if Cameron becomes PM then he will do so without hardly any support from Scotland. The Tories are and English party, not a UK wide party.

Anyway, the Lord High Denier is unlikely to find a home in the new government, as his friends are more in the UKIP, which is much less popular than their media outlets would concede.

re: #157 LudwigVanQuixote

Go figure, religious Israelis, who have a religion that says we were created as a gardener and a steward of the Earth take this seriously. Secular ones really just don't want to die in an eco-collapse and they are into science. Rightwing ones really don't want to buy oil from Egypt. The Military doesn't want oil reserves to be a security issue such that they run out of fuel in the middle of a conflict.

Hmmm...

In other words, this is one case where morality, science, realpolitik and security all come together.

And Noam fucking Chomsky is denouncing the Boston Science Museum for hosting an exhibit of Israeli green technology.

re: #157 LudwigVanQuixote

Go figure, religious Israelis, who have a religion that says we were created as a gardener and a steward of the Earth take this seriously. Secular ones really just don't want to die in an eco-collapse and they are into science. Rightwing ones really don't want to buy oil from Egypt. The Military doesn't want oil reserves to be a security issue such that they run out of fuel in the middle of a conflict.

Hmmm...

In other words, this is one case where morality, science, realpolitik and security all come together.

Bingo, my man. Absolutely spot on. Here's the question:

What is the down side? Why can't this be done and done soon? Why wouldn't people *want* to save gigabucks on their transportation costs?

It's a puzzlement!

re: #153 Cannadian Club Akbar

And shopping malls.

What shopping malls? I thought the Walmarts ate all the malls.

re: #155 PAUL_MACDONALD

One of the biggest deals that the deniers are overlooking is the farming aspect. I was reading an article today about 'super-weeds' and their growing resistance to weed killers. I rarely, if ever, use chemicals on my crops, but this is something farmers have seen coming. We're having to revert back to more labor-intensive ways of getting rid of pests.

re: #144 austin_blue

Umm..no. Oxygen isn't the problem.

Actually as we kill off photo plankton, algae, and other photosynthesizers in the ocean, and as carbon saturation increases, we loose tremendous amounts of O2. Ocean anoxia is the worst of the gifts of AGW, because it will be the hardest to reverse. Atmospheric concentrations of O2 have been decreasing steadily for decades.

re: #77 Racer X

Jedi A-holes

[Video]

Stay on target.

re: #166 austin_blue

Bingo, my man. Absolutely spot on. Here's the question:

What is the down side? Why can't this be done and done soon? Why wouldn't people *want* to save gigabucks on their transportation costs?

It's a puzzlement!

Why do people still keep producing news papers even when its a dieing industry?

Because there's big money still at the helm, oil may be on the way out, but it plans to go down kicking and screaming...

re: #167 b_sharp

What shopping malls? I thought the Walmarts ate all the malls.

What? No more "Hot Sam's Pretzels"? This will lead to anarchy.
/

re: #167 b_sharp

What shopping malls? I thought the Walmarts ate all the malls.

Texas has plenty of malls, where else would the Niemans and Nordstroms be located?

re: #167 b_sharp

What shopping malls? I thought the Walmarts ate all the malls.

Here's one that it hasn't served up with picante sauce just yet: The Mall of America

re: #171 jamesfirecat

Why do people still keep producing news papers even when its a dieing industry?

Because there's big money still at the helm, oil may be on the way out, but it plans to go down kicking and screaming...

Why, why why do they keep publishing the fucking Yellow Pages? Do you realize how much landfill space is reserved just for Yellow Pages?

re: #168 tnguitarist

It's one of those aspects that I don't think about, either. Probably should go to near the top of the list. Airable land will be at a premium and farming techniques will have to be altered dramatically.

re: #165 Alouette

And Noam fucking Chomsky is denouncing the Boston Science Museum for hosting an exhibit of Israeli green technology.

I am already too pissed off to talk about that putz.

I never thought I would say this about another Jew, but he should be put under a ban of cherem.

re: #161 avanti

BTW, don't now how my handle ended up atop that comment, but it was not mine.

Whatever. You're a commie prog bastard, so I'm sure it's your fault somehow.
/

re: #170 Slumbering Behemoth

Stay on target.

Solar panels on Targets, Best Buys, Conns, Sams & Costco.

Problem solved.

re: #178 Slumbering Behemoth

Whatever. You're a commie prog bastard, so I'm sure it's your fault somehow.
/

PROGZ IS MADE FAH TAXIN' AND SPENDIN'!

re: #175 Alouette

Why, why why do they keep publishing the fucking Yellow Pages? Do you realize how much landfill space is reserved just for Yellow Pages?

I get 3 phone books a year. I bet 3 are still on my porch right now.

re: #137 austin_blue

austin_blue -

Quite aware of the Israeli Program, am a regular reader of the Online JPost. Problem with electric & NG vehicles is range. 200 miles IS much more like it.
For the record, the average gasoline vehicle can go 3-400 miles on a tank. When I sold NG Vehicles, the ratio was 1 to 3 - ie - 100 miles full tank NGV was a 300 mile range on the equivalent full tank gasoline equivalent vehicle.
Caveat - I am also WELL AWARE that the NGV's were NOT optimized for NG Operation. They were more built for gasoline retrofit for resale when taken out of service. I suspect optimized NGV's (NG is about 130 Octane Equivalent) would be closer to a 2 to 3 difference. -S-

re: #175 Alouette

Why, why why do they keep publishing the fucking Yellow Pages? Do you realize how much landfill space is reserved just for Yellow Pages?

They go in the recycling.

re: #177 LudwigVanQuixote

I am already too pissed off to talk about that putz.

I never thought I would say this about another Jew, but he should be put under a ban of cherem.

He is worse than Neturei Karta. Everybody knows that Neturei Karta is a bunch of freaking idiots. Because he is a bigshot professor, Noam Chomsky gets more respect even though he is just as much of a freaking idiot as your Neturei Karta asshole.

re: #177 LudwigVanQuixote

I am already too pissed off to talk about that putz.

I never thought I would say this about another Jew, but he should be put under a ban of cherem.

Doesn't he have a job?!?! I mean, I hear he's a college professor, you think he'd actually (GASP!) teach every now and again.

///

re: #3 enigma3535

I am of a mind to simply give up on this debate ... the reality may not come crushing down while I still live ... maybe not even [in a material fashion] during the lives of my kids [4 and 6]. During the lives of their kids? Almost certainly. Whatever. "Thanks for all the fish."

Our lives are not solely our own. The Rubayat has a verse about that. Each person is first arrow, then bow. We have a responsibility to posterity, and we are not making a very good job of it.

How will those kids feel when they reach old age and they see an inexorable doom closing over their own grandchildren? Think about it. Time passes and the future comes.

Death and taxes are not nearly as certain as this: the future will one day be the present. And you're taking the optimistic view. This deluge may not be so courteous as to wait for apres nous. Watch for the arctic sea ice to be half clear some summer this very decade. If it happens, that's a tipping point. There are others. We can blow through some of them and save the ship of civilization anyhow. One torpedo below the water line, check. Counterflooding initiated. Two? Three? This AGW thing is dangerous.

re: #165 Alouette

And Noam fucking Chomsky is denouncing the Boston Science Museum for hosting an exhibit of Israeli green technology.

Chomsky should STFU.

re: #106 Ojoe

Carbon sequestering in the ocean by using
iron to cause plankton blooms.

Good night all.

i like it. lots of fish eat plankton, thus supporting fish stocks...

re: #109 Mich-again
yep, every little bit counts. But a few Big Things as well certainly wouldn't hurt.

re: #178 Slumbering Behemoth

Whatever. You're a commie prog bastard, so I'm sure it's your fault somehow.
/

Well, that a improvement from being a used condom I guess.

re: #181 Cannadian Club Akbar

I get 3 phone books a year. I bet 3 are still on my porch right now.

The Yellow Pages of the future will contain only porno adverts.

re: #177 LudwigVanQuixote

I am already too pissed off to talk about that putz.

I never thought I would say this about another Jew, but he should be put under a ban of cherem.

What does that mean?

re: #141 avanti

Hell, they just ignored the posts you made here that blew them out of the water. Sort of reminded me of the hearing I just watched.
When confronted with facts, make fun of the scientists. i.e., they are paid hacks, politics is the drivers, it's a big ass scam, etc.

Lol Snorkles still has yet to refute the debunking I gave him. Incidentally, that fraud wrote against smart grids - one of the key solutions to AGW because he thinks that having efficient and less wasteful distribution networks are some sort of socialist conspiracy.

He claimed that there is no science behind them smart grids, and yet the benefits of not having generators on idle in low use areas - helping ones in peak areas is just simply obvious to anyone.

The economics works out well and pays for itself also.

I linked a rather large study from MIT about this, full of all that math and factual data stuff they hate.

I know he saw it. They have whole thread over there about how I don't know science, and yet when challenged on the science, turn into screaming pussies.

Snork, I know you are reading. You are a fraud and a fake. If you really are a licensed engineer - but not bragging about where you are doing engineering, it means you got fired. That is understandable. After all, you proved in your time here that you can't do basic math.

re: #191 Alouette

The Yellow Pages of the future will contain only porno adverts.

Great. Now I have to go look.
//

re: #192 Dark_Falcon

What does that mean?

Noam Chomsky is a dick and should be uncircumcised.

re: #195 Alouette

Noam Chomsky is a dick and should be uncircumcised.

That would be de-circumcised.

re: #195 Alouette

Noam Chomsky is a dick and should be uncircumcised.

So what you nail the foreskin back on? Or do you do it with a needle and a a thread?

Why do I care?

re: #185 SteveC

Doesn't he have a job?!?! I mean, I hear he's a college professor, you think he'd actually (GASP!) teach every now and again.

///

HE does. I have friends who have sworn to make certain that if I am ever at a conference at MIT and see him, they will prevent me from making a scene.

re: #175 Alouette

Why, why why do they keep publishing the fucking Yellow Pages? Do you realize how much landfill space is reserved just for Yellow Pages?

You can use them as compost in your garden. You just have to tear the pages apart...

re: #195 Alouette

Noam Chomsky is a dick and should be uncircumcised.

Donor foreskin?
/

re: #165 Alouette

Alouette -

Musn't we let Chomsky be Chomsky? He truly wishes such stuff were invented by the odd Mohamed or Ali in "Palestine" as that would better suit his meme.
Until that happens he must kvetch, and kvetch, and kvetch...

-S-

Time to bail!

I have above average knowledge of Cardiology but almost zilch on AGW. So I leave it to the LGF team to take this one on.

The boss is gonna want a report on his desk by morning, so don't forget to do that. The stapler is in the top left drawer of my desk if you need it!

re: #199 Floral Giraffe

You can use them as compost in your garden. You just have to tear the pages apart...

Seriously, don't you people recycle?

re: #197 jamesfirecat

So what you nail the foreskin back on? Or do you do it with a needle and a a thread?

Why do I care?

Nail gun, or a stapler.

re: #196 Alouette

That would be de-circumcised.

Not circumscribed?

re: #197 jamesfirecat

So what you nail the foreskin back on? Or do you do it with a needle and a a thread?

Why do I care?

The implication of what she said is much much more harsh in a spiritual sense. Alouette takes cherem to revoking brit milah.

I agree. It is not as if he didn't show up on Hezzballah TV supporting murderers of the People.

How do you circumcise a Sperm Whale?

Foreskin divers!!

re: #204 Alouette

Nail gun, or a stapler.

Super glue?

re: #200 Cannadian Club Akbar

Donor foreskin?
/

Nah...just sew them into a wallet..but if you rub it, it turns into a steamer trunk!

re: #203 CarleeCork

Yes, it makes very good compost for the yard. Simpler than having to have it hauled off by a truck, taken to a recycling facility, and processed.

re: #203 CarleeCork

Seriously, don't you people recycle?

I think most peeps here do.

re: #164 freetoken

Watching the UK election returns... If indeed the Tories take control, I imagine the usual suspects in the US right-o-sphere will try to make something of it, as if the Tories are even close to the Tea Partyism that is raging in the US right wing.

What is also clear, from the vote totals, is that the "left" (Lib Dems and Greens plus Labor) has many more votes in total than the Tories, by a wide margin.

Furthermore, looking at the map, if Cameron becomes PM then he will do so without hardly any support from Scotland. The Tories are and English party, not a UK wide party.

Anyway, the Lord High Denier is unlikely to find a home in the new government, as his friends are more in the UKIP, which is much less popular than their media outlets would concede.

When SWMBO and I were stuck in the UK due to the Gigantic Pain in the Ash Cloud, we got to see the first two "Leader's Debates". Interesting. The most "Conservative", David Cameron of the Tories, was supporting Gay Rights and the real need to address climate change. he would be a Rockefeller Republican back in '68.

Also, it's nice to see that the BNP is getting their collective ass kicked tonight.

re: #197 jamesfirecat

So what you nail the foreskin back on? Or do you do it with a needle and a a thread?

Why do I care?

A stapler.

re: #207 Cannadian Club Akbar

How do you circumcise a Sperm Whale?

Foreskin divers!!

Tommy Loy the Cabin Boy
the dirty little nipper
he filled his arse with broken glass
and circumcised the skipper

re: #204 Alouette

Nail gun, or a stapler.

Wood glue. Wait for it...

How about NOT PRINTING the fucking Yellow Pages in the first place?!?!

Seriously, we could save entire forests.

re: #215 tnguitarist

Wood glue. Wait for it...

LOL!

Ohh and one of the elements of the Israeli plans we were talking about is a smart grid!

re: #215 tnguitarist

Wood glue. Wait for it...

Heh.

re: #216 Alouette

How about NOT PRINTING the fucking Yellow Pages in the first place?!?!

Seriously, we could save entire forests.

I am right with you. I really am.

re: #190 avanti

I can pack only so many insults into a single sentence, bro. I use that condom one at some other juncture.
/then again, probably won't

re: #215 tnguitarist

Wood glue. Wait for it...

That wuz funny!

re: #216 Alouette

How about NOT PRINTING the fucking Yellow Pages in the first place?!?!

Seriously, we could save entire forests.

What about free enterprise? Think about all the lost jobs!
//

re: #207 Cannadian Club Akbar

How do you circumcise a Sperm Whale?

Foreskin divers!!

LMAO it is Four Skin Divers.

You blew the punchline. (did I say blew on a whale post?)

re: #224 The Bunny

LMAO it is Four Skin Divers.

You blew the punchline. (did I say blew on a whale post?)

It was on topic cause your were talking about Moby Dick

re: #206 LudwigVanQuixote

The implication of what she said is much much more harsh in a spiritual sense. Alouette takes cherem to revoking brit milah.

I agree. It is not as if he didn't show up on Hezzballah TV supporting murderers of the People.

Chomsky would be proud if he were put in a cherem (excommunication). That's why I think his foreskin should be reattached. To his nose or his forehead.

re: #224 The Bunny

LMAO it is Four Skin Divers.

You blew the punchline. (did I say blew on a whale post?)

Works either way.
/You're harshing my buzz
//

re: #224 The Bunny

LMAO it is Four Skin Divers.

You blew the punchline. (did I say blew on a whale post?)

Don't worry about it, it's probably just a fluke

re: #169 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually as we kill off photo plankton, algae, and other photosynthesizers in the ocean, and as carbon saturation increases, we loose tremendous amounts of O2. Ocean anoxia is the worst of the gifts of AGW, because it will be the hardest to reverse. Atmospheric concentrations of O2 have been decreasing steadily for decades.

Phytoplankton. And the scenario you are talking about is the green ocean where there is no turnover in the warm/cold currents. Yes, it's hell but that is *way* on down the line if we don't act soon.

But it's possible in the worst case scenarios.

And to all the fans out there who tirelessly show their devotion by flinging insults at Ludwig and I, this next song is for you:

G'night lizoids.

re: #226 Alouette

Chomsky would be proud if he were put in a cherem (excommunication). That's why I think his foreskin should be reattached. To his nose or his forehead.

Lol.

You are in a mood like mine tonight.

re: #59 avanti

Good quote from a Dem just now: "Hold on Lord, I'd like to hear from the scientists"

Good enough. I just don't understand how this guy is taken seriously in discussions of this kind of scientific complexity when he apparently has no background in science.

Ohhh snorky, Would you mind explaining to us how we don't need to revamp the aging infrastructure of our current grid even as it is?

Ohh Snorky, you do realize that people have been talking about the need to do this since Bush sr?

Ohhh snorky, care to discuss the calculation of energy costs and carbon outputs over a distributed load model?

Snorky? That's all that science stuff that you don't understand... You know the stuff with the data...

Data is the stuff that actual professionals that know what they are talking about use.

re: #232 LudwigVanQuixote

Lol.

You are in a mood like mine tonight.

But with pie.

My expert witness is GENE RAY

re: #233 SanFranciscoZionist

Good enough. I just don't understand how this guy is taken seriously in discussions of this kind of scientific complexity when he apparently has no background in science.

Because the GOP believes that science is not real. It is a belief system that one can choose to believe in. Hence they only listen to those who say what they want to hear. Well that and the fact that they are bought and paid for by big oil and out good friends the Saudis.

re: #233 SanFranciscoZionist

Good enough. I just don't understand how this guy is taken seriously in discussions of this kind of scientific complexity when he apparently has no background in science.

He was only there because the Republicans could not find a real scientist that could dispute the data.

re: #114 Nimed

HEAT is GOOD. IF it's COLD enough, SOMETIMES people FREEZE to DEATH. Now EXCUSE me WHILE i DROOL.

I really like your style :D

re: #182 Dr. Shalit

austin_blue -

Quite aware of the Israeli Program, am a regular reader of the Online JPost. Problem with electric & NG vehicles is range. 200 miles IS much more like it.
For the record, the average gasoline vehicle can go 3-400 miles on a tank. When I sold NG Vehicles, the ratio was 1 to 3 - ie - 100 miles full tank NGV was a 300 mile range on the equivalent full tank gasoline equivalent vehicle.
Caveat - I am also WELL AWARE that the NGV's were NOT optimized for NG Operation. They were more built for gasoline retrofit for resale when taken out of service. I suspect optimized NGV's (NG is about 130 Octane Equivalent) would be closer to a 2 to 3 difference. -S-

Why is that a problem? On any US Interstate, the distance between fueling stations is generally less than 15 miles. Better place proposes licensing their tech. If you could have a 200-mile battery pack replaced from your vehicle for $2.00, why wouldn't you do it?

re: #238 avanti

He was only there because the Republicans could not find a real scientist that could dispute the data.

Superman could fly all the way around the world with X-ray vision going full blast and not find a real scientist that could dispute the data.

re: #169 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually as we kill off photo plankton, algae, and other photosynthesizers in the ocean, and as carbon saturation increases, we loose tremendous amounts of O2. Ocean anoxia is the worst of the gifts of AGW, because it will be the hardest to reverse. Atmospheric concentrations of O2 have been decreasing steadily for decades.

Well, yeah, but not by much. zero.0003 percent decline
That's not a very good talking point. For all practical purposes, atmospheric oxygen is steady enough that almost every other worry goes to the front of the line. I'm reminded of a quip a baseball player made when disappointed in a ref's call.

Don't worry, ref. You're still the second best official in the league. But the others are in a 20-way tie for first.

re: #233 SanFranciscoZionist

Remember what the real purpose of this meeting, and similar, is.

Congress is not actually taking information from their "witnesses".

Rather, the idea is for each Congressman to get a video clip of him/her sounding profound, to play on the local TV in their district.

Monckton is there for show. Expertise is optional.

re: #242 lostlakehiker

Well, yeah, but not by much. zero.0003 percent decline
That's not a very good talking point. For all practical purposes, atmospheric oxygen is steady enough that almost every other worry goes to the front of the line. I'm reminded of a quip a baseball player made when disappointed in a ref's call.

Don't worry, ref. You're still the second best official in the league. But the others are in a 20-way tie for first.

Ok, I did not write that the atmosphere would runout of O2 anytime soon. I wrote that we see a steady decline in concentrations and have since the first Keeling curves were taken.

Ocean anoxia itself is already happening and we are going to see spreading dead zones in the seas a lot sooner than you might think.

re: #243 freetoken

Remember what the real purpose of this meeting, and similar, is.

Congress is not actually taking information from their "witnesses".

Rather, the idea is for each Congressman to get a video clip of him/her sounding profound, to play on the local TV in their district.

Monckton is there for show. Expertise is optional.

And that is why this is such a tragedy. We are literally talking about something that will lead to the deaths of billions, and these fools see it as theater while the media sees it as a way to sell the crap that fuels the cycle.

re: #185 SteveC

Doesn't he have a job?!?! I mean, I hear he's a college professor, you think he'd actually (GASP!) teach every now and again.

///

His job is to occasionally call a grad student and tell them to teach his class again.

re: #246 SanFranciscoZionist

His job is to occasionally call a grad student and tell them to teach his class again.

Do you go through every post? Not snark. But, wow. I can't do that. But you are a teacher and probably have more patience than me.

re: #245 LudwigVanQuixote

And that is why this is such a tragedy. We are literally talking about something that will lead to the deaths of billions, and these fools see it as theater while the media sees it as a way to sell the crap that fuels the cycle.

Keep chipping away, Ludwig, and hope we win over enough people in time. That's the best we can do.

re: #197 jamesfirecat

So what you nail the foreskin back on? Or do you do it with a needle and a a thread?

Why do I care?

Morbid curiousity.

Actually, they used to do something to at least visually restore the foreskin, back it the day. Hellenized Jews who wanted to compete in Greek athletic events.