National Academy of Sciences Members Denounce ‘McCarthy-Like Threats’ by AGW Deniers

Science • Views: 3,517

The National Academy of Sciences has published an open letter signed by 255 members, strongly denouncing the recent attacks and “McCarthy-like threats” against climate scientists by global warming denial groups and individuals: Open letter: Climate change and the integrity of science.

We are deeply disturbed by the recent escalation of political assaults on scientists in general and on climate scientists in particular. All citizens should understand some basic scientific facts. There is always some uncertainty associated with scientific conclusions; science never absolutely proves anything. When someone says that society should wait until scientists are absolutely certain before taking any action, it is the same as saying society should never take action. For a problem as potentially catastrophic as climate change, taking no action poses a dangerous risk for our planet.

Scientific conclusions derive from an understanding of basic laws supported by laboratory experiments, observations of nature, and mathematical and computer modelling. Like all human beings, scientists make mistakes, but the scientific process is designed to find and correct them. This process is inherently adversarial— scientists build reputations and gain recognition not only for supporting conventional wisdom, but even more so for demonstrating that the scientific consensus is wrong and that there is a better explanation. That’s what Galileo, Pasteur, Darwin, and Einstein did. But when some conclusions have been thoroughly and deeply tested, questioned, and examined, they gain the status of “well-established theories” and are often spoken of as “facts.”

For instance, there is compelling scientific evidence that our planet is about 4.5bn years old (the theory of the origin of Earth), that our universe was born from a single event about 14bn years ago (the Big Bang theory), and that today’s organisms evolved from ones living in the past (the theory of evolution). Even as these are overwhelmingly accepted by the scientific community, fame still awaits anyone who could show these theories to be wrong. Climate change now falls into this category: there is compelling, comprehensive, and consistent objective evidence that humans are changing the climate in ways that threaten our societies and the ecosystems on which we depend.

Many recent assaults on climate science and, more disturbingly, on climate scientists by climate change deniers, are typically driven by special interests or dogma, not by an honest effort to provide an alternative theory that credibly satisfies the evidence. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and other scientific assessments of climate change, which involve thousands of scientists producing massive and comprehensive reports, have, quite expectedly and normally, made some mistakes. When errors are pointed out, they are corrected.

But there is nothing remotely identified in the recent events that changes the fundamental conclusions about climate change:

(i) The planet is warming due to increased concentrations of heat-trapping gases in our atmosphere. A snowy winter in Washington does not alter this fact.

(ii) Most of the increase in the concentration of these gases over the last century is due to human activities, especially the burning of fossil fuels and deforestation.

(iii) Natural causes always play a role in changing Earth’s climate, but are now being overwhelmed by human-induced changes.

(iv) Warming the planet will cause many other climatic patterns to change at speeds unprecedented in modern times, including increasing rates of sea-level rise and alterations in the hydrologic cycle. Rising concentrations of carbon dioxide are making the oceans more acidic.

(v) The combination of these complex climate changes threatens coastal communities and cities, our food and water supplies, marine and freshwater ecosystems, forests, high mountain environments, and far more.

Much more can be, and has been, said by the world’s scientific societies, national academies, and individuals, but these conclusions should be enough to indicate why scientists are concerned about what future generations will face from business- as-usual practices. We urge our policymakers and the public to move forward immediately to address the causes of climate change, including the unrestrained burning of fossil fuels.

We also call for an end to McCarthy-like threats of criminal prosecution against our colleagues based on innuendo and guilt by association, the harassment of scientists by politicians seeking distractions to avoid taking action, and the outright lies being spread about them. Society has two choices: we can ignore the science and hide our heads in the sand and hope we are lucky, or we can act in the public interest to reduce the threat of global climate change quickly and substantively. The good news is that smart and effective actions are possible. But delay must not be an option.

One of the signers, Peter H. Gleick, has an article with more perspective on the significance of this letter:

It is hard to get 255 members of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences to agree on pretty much anything, making the import of this letter even more substantial. Moreover, only a small fraction of National Academy members were asked to sign (the signatories are all members of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences but were not speaking on its behalf). Because of a desire to produce a statement quickly, the coordinators of the letter focused on those sections of the NAS most familiar with climate science and the ongoing debate. But the NAS (and Academies of Sciences and other professional scientific societies from dozens of other nations) has previously published a long set of assessments and reviews of the science of climate change, which support the conclusions laid out in the Science essay.

(Hat tip: Tim Lambert.)

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195 comments
1 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:11:18am

Its about time scientists stepped up to the plate and started swinging back at the likes of McIntyre, Ball Moncton and Plimer. I just hope they take the time to swing for the fence.

2 jamesfirecat  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:12:31am

re: #1 b_sharp

Its about time scientists stepped up to the plate and started swinging back at the likes of McIntyre, Ball Moncton and Plimer. I just hope they take the time to swing for the fence.

Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.

3 Obdicut  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:14:34am

The enormous smear campaign against scientists has been sadly successful. Far too few people spoke up in defense of them. The large anti-intellectual streak in America reared its ugly head again.

Who is there who can possibly think that we can remain a great nation without great science? Who is there who thinks that relentless attacks on the integrity of science-- all the scoffing at peer review, all the unsubtle innuendos that scientists are in it for the money, the stolen emails examined for any shred of frustration to use against them-- are not going to leave us weaker as a nation?

Anti-intellectualism is a lot more tolerable when it's just reflexive antagonism towards NEA funding. But this anti-intellectualism has a price, and it could be the destruction of our nation as we know it.

No one can claim to be strong on national security if they're not also strong on combating AGW. It is the most important national security issue of our time.

4 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:16:41am

re: #2 jamesfirecat

Guys, hitting is not about muscle. It's simple physics. Calculate the velocity, v, in relation to the trajectory, t, in which g, gravity, of course remains a constant.

Distance is determined by bat speed + ball speed. When the ball is the size of a swollen human head, sitting at rest, that bat has to be going bloody fast.

5 allegro  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:16:57am

This is very cool and pretty much astonishing to watch scientists finally step forward en masse with such a statement. Having been directly involved in writing/consulting on environmental impact statements for the past 30+ years, I have had threats, broken windows in my home and car, and even bribes (never took any), but it was always brushed under the rug by peers and superiors who didn't want to make waves due to "repercussions." About freaking time.

6 jaunte  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:19:54am

The argument is very similar to the creationist/biologigal evolution discussion in this sense:

Many recent assaults on climate science and, more disturbingly, on climate scientists by climate change deniers, are typically driven by special interests or dogma, not by an honest effort to provide an alternative theory that credibly satisfies the evidence.
7 jaunte  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:20:17am

biological, (pimf)

8 filetandrelease  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:20:51am

What we need is a high speed mag lev system criss crossing the country along interstate routes connected to a nuclear grid. But first we need a politician with the balls to confront Detroit, big oil, boeing and hell just about everyone.

9 Obdicut  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:21:11am

Here's a good video on national security, oil usage, and climate change.

10 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:23:17am

re: #3 Obdicut


Anti-intellectualism is a lot more tolerable when it's just reflexive antagonism towards NEA funding. But this anti-intellectualism has a price, and it could be the destruction of our nation as we know it.

I have to disagree with you on this bit. Anti-intellectualism is never tolerable, simply because it is just a reflexive antagonism. Anti-intellectualism spreads the meme that seat of the pants reactions are all that's needed and intellectuals are just stupid.

11 Reginald Perrin  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:23:39am

Why has the so called liberal main stream media in America failed to report on this letter?

12 tnguitarist  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:24:21am

Any time the deniers get brought up, I think of Harrison Bergeron. Has anyone here read that? Great story.

13 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:25:51am

re: #8 filetandrelease

What we need is a high speed mag lev system criss crossing the country along interstate routes connected to a nuclear grid. But first we need a politician with the balls to confront Detroit, big oil, boeing and hell just about everyone.

A monorail, perhaps?

14 filetandrelease  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:27:00am

re: #13 iceweasel
Perhaps, a mag lev actually floats, no friction, and can reach very high speeds.

15 jamesfirecat  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:28:56am

re: #12 tnguitarist

Any time the deniers get brought up, I think of Harrison Bergeron. Has anyone here read that? Great story.

Yeah one of Kurt Vonnegut's most striking words, but it hardly seems a obvious connection to me.

I'd be much more inclined to think of that story when the people who want to teach creationism in schools come around so that we can all be equally stupid....

16 tnguitarist  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:30:01am

re: #15 jamesfirecat

Yeah one of Kurt Vonnegut's most striking words, but it hardly seems a obvious connection to me.

I'd be much more inclined to think of that story when the people who want to teach creationism in schools come around so that we can all be equally stupid...

Just the way they want to seem to dumb everyone and everything down.

17 tradewind  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:31:35am

re: #1 b_sharp
Without regard to the merit of their argument, scientists en masse have never been shy about dishing it out to their heretical brethren who don't subscribe....they should be able to take the same without hysterics.
Especially if they are secure in their beliefs.

18 Renaissance_Man  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:32:14am

re: #8 filetandrelease

What we need is a high speed mag lev system criss crossing the country along interstate routes connected to a nuclear grid. But first we need a politician with the balls to confront Detroit, big oil, boeing and hell just about everyone.

No, politicians are only a secondary part of good government in a democracy. The role of the politician is to convince us, the people, of what is needed to be done. However, what currently happens is that politicians are unwilling to attempt to convince people because they are entirely dependent on media to do it, and that means that we decide what message we want to hear. Thus far, we have shown that we are far more interested in sound bites and salacious gossip, and spouting memes and slogans, than dealing in information and facts. Our media thus feeds us an endless stream of that, and our politicians, even if they were to be the wisest, most reasonable folk out there, know that they cannot get elected if they try to put out a message contrary to this theme.

We are at the cusp of a very dangerous time in society. Powerful, non-elected interests are starting to realise that buying politicians is almost irrelevant. They are starting to discover the power of an all-pervasive media - 24 hour television, radio and the internet. They are starting to realise that they can pump the necessary opinions and memes to the people directly, rather than needing politicians to do things out of the public eye. Why buy off a politician to do things that are contrary to the public interest (but in your own interest), when you can use all-pervasive media to make people insist that it really is in their interest?

It's a very dangerous demagoguery indeed. Our human capacity for rationality has not evolved in time with our access to media. We are starting to see that you don't need to do your dirty work out of the public eye at all - you don't need to bribe politicians, judges, anyone. With a good enough media campaign, you can convince people that your dirty work is nothing less than God's own truth. You can convince people that all science, which has elevated man out of caves since time immemorial, is in fact evil and dishonest. You can convince people that their neighbours are somehow part of a decades-old plot to take away everything they hold dear, and to hate everything their neighbours stand for.

I just hope the Information Age can survive its own information.

19 enigma3535  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:32:25am

"Scientific conclusions derive from an understanding of basic laws supported by laboratory experiments, observations of nature, and mathematical and computer modelling."

The item in this quote that sticks out for me, is the reference to “laws” [scientific laws] … having made understanding what the difference is [to the scientific community] between a “law”, “theory” and “hypothesis”[in their parlance] some manner of a personal hobby … it appears that there are no “laws” [yet], just ideas, theories and hypotheses.

For something to be a “law”, it would appear that there is no doubt regarding it’s veracity. That the “law” is universally, certainly applicable when applied in any observations using the scientific method [anywhere in the universe] … IMHO, it will be a very long time until we [homo-sapiens] actually prove a concept to be a “law” of nature.

All that said, most "theories" that have been around for a few decades [or centuries] and have consistently been supported by observations using the scientific method, should not be discounted owing to the fact that non-scientists and those without an understanding of the vocabulary of science, think a theory means what they thing "theory" means in the vernacular.

20 filetandrelease  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:32:35am

re: #12 tnguitarist
I read a lot of his work but don't recall that one.

21 jamesfirecat  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:32:50am

re: #17 tradewind

Without regard to the merit of their argument, scientists en masse have never been shy about dishing it out to their heretical brethren who don't subscribe...they should be able to take the same without hysterics.
Especially if they are secure in their beliefs.

In theory scientists shouldn't even have beliefs on issues like AGW, they should have conclusions.

22 tnguitarist  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:34:25am

re: #20 filetandrelease

I read a lot of his work but don't recall that one.

Very depressing story, but worth a read.

23 Obdicut  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:34:31am

re: #17 tradewind

Without regard to the merit of their argument, scientists en masse have never been shy about dishing it out to their heretical brethren who don't subscribe...they should be able to take the same without hysterics.
Especially if they are secure in their beliefs.

What are you talking about? Scientists don't do jack shit en masse. They criticize the fuck out of each other, but they do so, you know, with science, and evidence.

The AGW deniers aren't participating in the scientific dialog. They're claiming science is somehow corrupt, or broken, or a big conspiracy.

24 tradewind  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:34:43am

re: #21 jamesfirecat
True. My point is less concerned with the substance of their complaint than with the idea that they themselves have been guilty in the past of McCarthy-esque techniques in attacking other scientists who disagree.

25 austin_blue  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:34:55am

Howdy Lizards!

Great letter and about damned time. I especially liked that they pointed out that the scientists are now being attacked, personally, because the science itself is now pretty much bulletproof.

Waiting for the deniers to start showing up in 5, 4, 3, 2,...

26 Obdicut  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:35:27am

re: #24 tradewind

True. My point is less concerned with the substance of their complaint than with the idea that they themselves have been guilty in the past of McCarthy-esque techniques in attacking other scientists who disagree.

Please be specific: name one of these incidents.

27 jamesfirecat  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:36:26am

re: #24 tradewind

True. My point is less concerned with the substance of their complaint than with the idea that they themselves have been guilty in the past of McCarthy-esque techniques in attacking other scientists who disagree.

Yes in the distant past they have been guilty of doing something like that.

Can you think of any recent examples?

28 tradewind  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:37:29am

re: #23 Obdicut

Scientists don't do jack shit en masse.


You asked them, and they assured you?//
Pick a fight with someone else.

29 filetandrelease  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:37:42am

re: #18 Renaissance_Man
That is a scary analysis. I hope you are wrong, all though Washington, IMO, has let us the people down big time in the area of energy and how we as a country use it. Zero foresight. Complete stagnation. Total dependence on an energy resource that is both dangerous to use and running out.

30 years ago Washington should have starting preparing the way for energy independence. Instead, Washington did the opposite.

30 tnguitarist  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:37:44am

re: #16 tnguitarist

If I could only downding myself for that word salad. This happens when you have four tabs open, typing on them all.

31 The Curmudgeon  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:38:43am

Oooohhhh! "McCarthy-like threats." Now they're taking off the gloves.

32 allegro  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:38:46am

re: #24 tradewind

True. My point is less concerned with the substance of their complaint than with the idea that they themselves have been guilty in the past of McCarthy-esque techniques in attacking other scientists who disagree.

This is not something I have witnessed between serious researchers. Not that discussions don't get heated, even seriously so, when discussing findings and conclusions. Where it gets ugly is over funding - a whole 'nother ballgame.

33 reine.de.tout  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:39:44am

re: #25 austin_blue

Yo, Austin_blue.
Been looking for you fora couple of days.
Send an email to the addy in my profile (or blue your nic), if you please.

34 filetandrelease  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:39:55am

re: #22 tnguitarist

Very depressing story, but worth a read.

Did he have any that weren't depressing?

35 tnguitarist  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:40:28am

re: #34 filetandrelease

Did he have any that weren't depressing?

Good point.

36 tradewind  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:41:25am

re: #27 jamesfirecat
Define ' distant'.
No, actually , don't. I'm certainly no expert on AGW experts and their treatment of other scientists who question aspects of their research.

37 tradewind  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:42:36am

re: #32 allegro
..and tenure, and appointments to committees, and publishing, and... and....

38 Obdicut  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:43:49am

re: #36 tradewind

Can you actually name a time when scientists acted in a McCarthy-esque way against heresy in their ranks?

39 allegro  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:44:13am

re: #36 tradewind

I'm certainly no expert on AGW experts and their treatment of other scientists who question aspects of their research.

There are researchers who have major egos and can be real assholes. That said, every single one of them knows that their research is going to be challenged and usually relish the opportunity. Your characterizations are insulting.

40 filetandrelease  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:44:51am

re: #38 Obdicut

Can you actually name a time when scientists acted in a McCarthy-esque way against heresy in their ranks?

When Galalio concluded the universe does not revolve around the earth?

41 eastsider  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:44:56am

For those keeping score at home, this is about as close in brevity, frankness and swearing as a group of scientists will get to collectively saying

"Shut the F�k up, you goddam morons"

42 Obdicut  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:45:46am

re: #40 filetandrelease

Wow. Okay. Can you name an incident that has occurred since the scientific method, you know, in actual modern science?

Not one where the Catholic Church punished a scientist for violating religious dogma?

43 eastsider  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:45:47am

re: #40 filetandrelease

When Galalio concluded the universe does not revolve around the earth?

Yeah that would have been the church in the "oppressors" seat, not scientists.

44 Gus  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:46:33am
The median expected salary for a typical Postdoctorate Scientist in the United States is $44,043.

[Link: swz.salary.com...]

Yeah, they sure "rake in the bucks" don't they? /

45 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:47:34am

re: #17 tradewind

Without regard to the merit of their argument, scientists en masse have never been shy about dishing it out to their heretical brethren who don't subscribe...they should be able to take the same without hysterics.
Especially if they are secure in their beliefs.

If the arguments against them were founded in well thought out research and published in journals and/or discussed in seminars, there wouldn't be a problem.

The current crop, of what you would call non-subscribers, don't publish in journals or instead publish in non-peer reviewed journals, instead take their non-research to blogs and news outlets. Much of what they have to say is nonsense, and just as much is composed of lies. They can be considered lies because the points have been examined and debunked more than once.

An example of their poor work is the D'Aleo and Watts paper where they claim high elevation weather stations have been removed from the data store because they are cold, thereby giving the trend an upward push.

Aside from the fact they aren't in the data store is because it sometimes takes up to ten years to collect all the data from difficult to access sites, this is nonsense because scientists are interested in anomaly, not absolute temperature. It seems D'Aleo and Watts don't understand the difference.

D'Aleo and Watts didn't even run the numbers. If you remove the 'cold' sites pointed to by their paper from the analysis, the trend increases in slope, not decreases, the opposite to what they claim. Nasa scientists did run the numbers, something your buds refuse to do.

46 filetandrelease  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:47:54am

re: #42 Obdicut
Sorry, that was suppose to be funny. There aren't any actual examples that I am aware.

47 eastsider  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:48:00am

re: #44 Gus 802

[Link: swz.salary.com...]

Yeah, they sure "rake in the bucks" don't they? /

That's after dedicated 5-10 low paying years of dedication to get higher degrees.

48 Obdicut  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:48:39am

re: #46 filetandrelease

Sorry, that was suppose to be funny. There aren't any actual examples that I am aware.

Ah, okay. Sorry-- Poe's Law.

49 eastsider  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:49:06am

re: #46 filetandrelease

Sorry, that was suppose to be funny. There aren't any actual examples that I am aware.

ditto Obdicuts. Sorry, I assume the worst w/o sarc tags.

50 Gus  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:49:52am

re: #47 eastsider

That's after dedicated 5-10 low paying years of dedication to get higher degrees.

And a pile of student loans.

51 Reginald Perrin  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:50:07am

re: #24 tradewind[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

My point is less concerned with the substance of their complaint than with the idea that they themselves have been guilty in the past of McCarthy-esque techniques in attacking other scientists who disagree

You still haven't posted any examples of alleged McCarthyesque attacks by scientists against skeptics.

It's telling that your concern is not with the veracity of the science but with what you perceive to be unjust attacks against climate change skeptics.

52 eastsider  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:52:06am

re: #50 Gus 802

And a pile of student loans.

and having to get by w/ the pick up line of "Hey baby, I'm studying data sets of tree ring diameters to determine if temperature acceleration in the 1980s is consistent across regions"

/doesn't play well with the ladies

53 jamesfirecat  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:52:21am

re: #47 eastsider

That's after dedicated 5-10 low paying years of dedication to get higher degrees.


The average resident owes over one hundred thousand dollars in med school loans, and makes about as much as a waiter. So you have to do things to make ends meet.

Like, you can cover someone's shift.

....Or you can steal stuff from the hospital.

Or you can moonlight at an urgent care center.

....Or, you can steal stuff.

Or your dad can pay for everything.

....Or, well...you know....

54 Obdicut  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:53:36am

re: #50 Gus 802

My fiancee has been making half what I do. I make interactive children's toys. She works as a scientist advancing our knowledge of cancer.

Now she'll go to school for seven years, and after that, and three years of interning, and a few years doing postdoc work, she'll be able to make what I make now.

55 allegro  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:53:44am

re: #52 eastsider

I actually find that damn sexy. There are female science nerds too, yanno. ;)

56 Digital Display  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:54:39am

Isn't it funny how politics loves to demonize Scientists?
The same guys talking on their BlackBerrys and iPhones and using GPS devices and watching big screen high Def TV's. A modern world created by science...Yet when they don't like the data they grab their torches and pitchforks and march on Scientists?
Kill The Scientists! It's all about politics and nothing to do with science

57 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:54:54am

re: #19 enigma3535

"Scientific conclusions derive from an understanding of basic laws supported by laboratory experiments, observations of nature, and mathematical and computer modelling."

The item in this quote that sticks out for me, is the reference to “laws” [scientific laws] … having made understanding what the difference is [to the scientific community] between a “law”, “theory” and “hypothesis”[in their parlance] some manner of a personal hobby … it appears that there are no “laws” [yet], just ideas, theories and hypotheses.

For something to be a “law”, it would appear that there is no doubt regarding it’s veracity. That the “law” is universally, certainly applicable when applied in any observations using the scientific method [anywhere in the universe] … IMHO, it will be a very long time until we [homo-sapiens] actually prove a concept to be a “law” of nature.

All that said, most "theories" that have been around for a few decades [or centuries] and have consistently been supported by observations using the scientific method, should not be discounted owing to the fact that non-scientists and those without an understanding of the vocabulary of science, think a theory means what they thing "theory" means in the vernacular.

I don't know where you've been getting your information from, but hypotheses, theories and laws are not a ladder of validity. Theories are a collection of well tested hypotheses and laws that form an explanation. Laws are a description. A theory never graduates to a law, and a law is not a degree more certain than a theory.

58 filetandrelease  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:54:55am

re: #41 eastsider

For those keeping score at home, this is about as close in brevity, frankness and swearing as a group of scientists will get to collectively saying

"Shut the F&#k up, you goddam morons"

This is an area where the scientist has to be very careful. When science suggest a dooms day scenario that requires solutions which will effect public policy in a manner that alters the way people live, they do not get to decide the policy. That is a public matter. Everyone who votes counts.

They have to convince, not brow beat.

59 enigma3535  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:55:00am

re: #18 Renaissance_Man

Sad [very] but true ... that said, taking your points and applying them to the historical record of just the US, things have been just as bad in the past [maybe even worse; like the media and rhetoric surrounding Andrew Jackson's campaigns for president circa the 1830s]. Technology is certainly changing, but people appear to be the same.

60 filetandrelease  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:56:14am

re: #48 Obdicut
I guess coming from a known conservative it wasn't all that funny. Scary maybe.

61 jvic  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:58:04am

Gleick:

Because of a desire to produce a statement quickly, the coordinators of the letter focused on those sections of the NAS most familiar with climate science and the ongoing debate.

Ah, that explains it: I randomly clicked on the signatories' hyperlinks and didn't see the proportion of physicists, chemists and mathematicians that I'd expect to find in the overall Academy.

62 Gus  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:58:12am

re: #54 Obdicut

My fiancee has been making half what I do. I make interactive children's toys. She works as a scientist advancing our knowledge of cancer.

Now she'll go to school for seven years, and after that, and three years of interning, and a few years doing postdoc work, she'll be able to make what I make now.

That a rather big commitment. 10 years of work and study.

63 enigma3535  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:58:45am

re: #57 b_sharp

Fair enough ... let's look at the "law of gravity":

It has recently experienced a bit of a crisis … based on Newtonian physics, observations of how galaxies move internally, and amongst themselves, do not make any sense … so, scientists created two variables that helped prove their existing “laws”. One was dark matter, which they postulate has been observed ... but that makes up a relative insignificant amount of the necessary mass of the variables to balance the equation the “law” of gravity requires … to actually balance the equation, scientists came up with the concept of “dark energy” [which represents the vast majority of the universe’s mass in these new equations]. Dark energy is a variable that no scientist is claiming [that I am aware of] has been observed [yet].

So, how can gravity be considered a “Law”.

IMHO, Newton had a theory that eventually was accepted as a law and that there is a ladder.

64 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:58:58am

re: #12 tnguitarist

Any time the deniers get brought up, I think of Harrison Bergeron. Has anyone here read that? Great story.

My ninth graders read it during their short story unit.

65 Obdicut  Sat, May 8, 2010 11:59:20am

re: #60 filetandrelease

Well, the funny part is most of the other scientists at that time were Catholic priests. A lot of very good astronomy was done during that time period. And Galileo was a massive asshole to people he worked with. So it's actually sometimes brought up as a moment of science gone awry, with scientists trying to please the church rather than the state.

However, since it predates the scientific method and what we'd really consider 'science' from a modern perspective, it's all a moot point.

Lysenkoism is often brought up by people unaware of the irony; Lysenkoism was the pet theory of a crackpot, shunned by the rest of the world, endorsed only out of political beliefs. Very similar to AGW-denial.

66 Gus  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:00:47pm

I think trotting out "Lord" Christopher Monckton as an expert witness on climate science is an assault on science.

67 Obdicut  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:00:52pm

re: #62 Gus 802

And she's going into it late, because she's had health problems. She was asked totally inappropriate questions about her age and plans for kids at every interview.

She's thirty-one now, -- eight years or so behind most of her classmates. Fourteen years until she can actually lead a lab, probably.

But none of that matters top her, because she gets to do science every step of the way.

Newsflash: Scientists are motivated, first and foremost, by science. Otherwise they wouldn't be scientists.

68 allegro  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:01:09pm

re: #63 enigma3535

You are confusing law with theory. One is the fact that gravity exists, i.e. law, and the other is the explanation of what causes gravity to exist, i.e. theory.

69 allegro  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:01:54pm

re: #67 Obdicut

She was asked totally inappropriate questions about her age and plans for kids at every interview.

Oh jeez, is that STILL happening?

70 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:02:21pm

re: #20 filetandrelease

I read a lot of his work but don't recall that one.

It's easy to find, I bet it's on line, and a short read. Worthwhile, although the trick, I find, is that people far more easily cast their political or social opponents as the villain, rather than themselves.

71 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:02:56pm

re: #31 The Curmudgeon

Oooohhh! "McCarthy-like threats." Now they're taking off the gloves.

Curm, the attacks are the same as the DI does to scientists. Their arguments are full of personal attacks, lies and innuendo. The attempts at damaging personal reputation is McCarthy-like.

If people like McIntyre, Watts, Plimer, Moncton, and the pile of know nothing journalists, had evidence either way, they would publish it in some decent journals. So far, only Spencer and Christy (the people who produce the UAH figures) have attempted to do that. They then faced what every scientist does, and their errors were pointed out. Like good scientists they then corrected their papers.

72 Obdicut  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:03:02pm

re: #69 allegro

Yep. The director of one very august institution took her aside to basically say "You're old. You sure you want to do this? What about kids? Are you getting married?"

It's one of the reasons I laugh when I hear universities called bastions of political correctness.

73 lostlakehiker  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:04:52pm

That letter just shows that scientists have sold out to Big Government and the Liberal Agenda. They know who butters their bread.

This message brought to you by Concerned Citizens For Truth in Science. We reveal the Fraud of Darwinism and the phony roots of the gravity myth. Please donate. All contributions welcome

end{/c:politicians/toolsofbigcarbon/emulate}

74 filetandrelease  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:05:05pm

re: #70 SanFranciscoZionist

It's easy to find, I bet it's on line, and a short read. Worthwhile, although the trick, I find, is that people far more easily cast their political or social opponents as the villain, rather than themselves.

Well now I have to read it just to better appreciate that trick, which seems human nature. Our perception is our reality.

75 Gus  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:05:09pm

re: #67 Obdicut

And she's going into it late, because she's had health problems. She was asked totally inappropriate questions about her age and plans for kids at every interview.

She's thirty-one now, -- eight years or so behind most of her classmates. Fourteen years until she can actually lead a lab, probably.

But none of that matters top her, because she gets to do science every step of the way.

Newsflash: Scientists are motivated, first and foremost, by science. Otherwise they wouldn't be scientists.

Yes, I would expect that it would be for the love of the work and the love of the science. The stereotype being thrown about these days is that a lot of scientists are "in it for the money" which is a lot of hooey. The meme always includes references to tenure, grants, etc. They act as if though when a scientist gets a 250,000 dollar grant they pocket the money and spend it on silverware and such.

76 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:05:13pm

re: #44 Gus 802

[Link: swz.salary.com...]

Yeah, they sure "rake in the bucks" don't they? /

That's absolutely insane. I make around that, and I have a BA and a teaching credential. And presumably less out in student loans than someone with a doctorate.

Granted, I also live in a ridiculously expensive part of the country, but still--DAMN.

77 allegro  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:07:06pm

re: #72 Obdicut

Yep. The director of one very august institution took her aside to basically say "You're old. You sure you want to do this? What about kids? Are you getting married?"

It's one of the reasons I laugh when I hear universities called bastions of political correctness.

Having been the first woman to achieve tenure in my field at one of those bastions, after a number of years of seeing even former (anatomically acceptable) students of mine get there, laughter isn't my first response.

78 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:07:26pm

re: #52 eastsider

and having to get by w/ the pick up line of "Hey baby, I'm studying data sets of tree ring diameters to determine if temperature acceleration in the 1980s is consistent across regions"

/doesn't play well with the ladies

pedant: Ring density, not diameter.

Like: Hey baby, I am your density.

79 Renaissance_Man  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:08:36pm

re: #76 SanFranciscoZionist

That's absolutely insane. I make around that, and I have a BA and a teaching credential. And presumably less out in student loans than someone with a doctorate.

Granted, I also live in a ridiculously expensive part of the country, but still--DAMN.

It is a miserable failing of the free-market system that jobs that are highly valuable to society, such as police, teachers, and scientists, are valued so little. Yet entertainers and athletes are valued so very, very much more.

I don't know what the solution is, but it's a problem so big as to be criminal.

80 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:09:20pm

re: #75 Gus 802

Yes, I would expect that it would be for the love of the work and the love of the science. The stereotype being thrown about these days is that a lot of scientists are "in it for the money" which is a lot of hooey. The meme always includes references to tenure, grants, etc. They act as if though when a scientist gets a 250,000 dollar grant they pocket the money and spend it on silverware and such.

Well, if I got a 250,000 grant, I'd spend it all on books and perfume. Just saying.

81 enigma3535  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:09:36pm

re: #68 allegro

That would probably be a colloquial manner of approaching why something one drops falls down ... regarding why the theory of gravity is considered a "law" and how all the underlying math works [probably millions of words and thousands of equations to explain it], not so much.

82 Gus  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:09:51pm

re: #76 SanFranciscoZionist

That's absolutely insane. I make around that, and I have a BA and a teaching credential. And presumably less out in student loans than someone with a doctorate.

Granted, I also live in a ridiculously expensive part of the country, but still--DAMN.

Yes. And that would be gross income before expenses and every other aspect known as the cost of living. Scientists also have to live in areas which are not known for a lower cost of living in particular regarding rent or mortgages.

83 Obdicut  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:10:23pm

re: #77 allegro

Well, she got into Cornell's tri-institution program, she she'll be working at Sloan-Kettering, the best possible place in the world, but it's astonishing how many of the other programs flatly rejected her, given her obvious worth. I think maybe they would have overlooked either her age or her sex on their own, but the combination still makes old dudes panic.

84 austin_blue  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:11:22pm

re: #29 filetandrelease

That is a scary analysis. I hope you are wrong, all though Washington, IMO, has let us the people down big time in the area of energy and how we as a country use it. Zero foresight. Complete stagnation. Total dependence on an energy resource that is both dangerous to use and running out.

30 years ago Washington should have starting preparing the way for energy independence. Instead, Washington did the opposite.

They tried at the end of the Carter administration. Propane tanks in cars. Coal gasification plants in Colorado. The first wind farms in Cali. Lots of money for R&D. Then Saint Ronnie came in and defunded the whole thing.

85 Locker  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:13:30pm

I really liked this post and the brief sum up is something I was able to send to some of the older and less reachable members of my family. Perhaps it will help.

86 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:13:32pm

And then, Newsweek comes along with a magazine cover with a chalkboard with 'fire bad teachers' written over and over on it.

There's this obsessive idea that teachers are somehow getting paid to sit and do our nails while the kids run wild, and if they could just get rid of all of us...

87 allegro  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:14:21pm

re: #83 Obdicut

She must be extremely gifted and dedicated to have landed such an excellent position!

I think maybe they would have overlooked either her age or her sex on their own, but the combination still makes old dudes panic.

Neither of which should be a consideration and ordinarily are not for the male of our species. (Though age might if it was "advanced" and there is a great investment on the part of the institution.)

88 allegro  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:15:04pm

re: #87 allegro

oops. format fail on that one.

89 sagehen  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:15:41pm

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

And then, Newsweek comes along with a magazine cover with a chalkboard with 'fire bad teachers' written over and over on it.

There's this obsessive idea that teachers are somehow getting paid to sit and do our nails while the kids run wild, and if they could just get rid of all of us...


And replace you with what?

90 Locker  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:17:45pm

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

And then, Newsweek comes along with a magazine cover with a chalkboard with 'fire bad teachers' written over and over on it.

There's this obsessive idea that teachers are somehow getting paid to sit and do our nails while the kids run wild, and if they could just get rid of all of us...

It's an end run attack at unions. The number one most heard anti-union statement is that we protect bad teachers from getting fired.

91 austin_blue  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:17:58pm

re: #89 sagehen

And replace you with what?

Bibles, silly.

92 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:18:41pm

re: #89 sagehen

And replace you with what?

The most popular idea seems to be elite young kids just out of college, with much better degrees than those of the current teachers, who would not be unionized, would make a LOT more than we do, would work fifteen-hour days, then in a year or two, go on to become captains of industry, or, you know, important people.

Not kidding. This is the narrative I seem to be piecing together these days.

93 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:19:41pm

re: #63 enigma3535

Fair enough ... let's look at the "law of gravity":

It has recently experienced a bit of a crisis … based on Newtonian physics, observations of how galaxies move internally, and amongst themselves, do not make any sense … so, scientists created two variables that helped prove their existing “laws”. One was dark matter, which they postulate has been observed ... but that makes up a relative insignificant amount of the necessary mass of the variables to balance the equation the “law” of gravity requires … to actually balance the equation, scientists came up with the concept of “dark energy” [which represents the vast majority of the universe’s mass in these new equations]. Dark energy is a variable that no scientist is claiming [that I am aware of] has been observed [yet].

So, how can gravity be considered a “Law”.

IMHO, Newton had a theory that eventually was accepted as a law and that there is a ladder.

Because it is a description. You seem to believe a law has to be perfect for it to be valid and useful. There are also points near or at absolute zero where the vibration in some substances does not stop. The 2LoT is not perfect, but it is still considered a law.

Don't reify the relationship between laws and the phenomenon being described by the law, they aren't the same thing. A law is an abstract that allows us to understand, through observation, measurement and testing, specific natural events/conditions. Gravity isn't the law, it's the phenomenon being described by the Law of Gravitation. If the description doesn't fit phenomenon, the descriptions needs to be corrected. If the law is incomplete it needs to be updated. If the law has through history been consistently accurate but fails in its job at some point, then we look to see what was missed, either in the phenomenon or the law.

You are looking for a 100% certainty that isn't there. We are normally satisfied with somewhat less than 100%.

94 jamesfirecat  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:21:07pm

re: #79 Renaissance_Man

It is a miserable failing of the free-market system that jobs that are highly valuable to society, such as police, teachers, and scientists, are valued so little. Yet entertainers and athletes are valued so very, very much more.

I don't know what the solution is, but it's a problem so big as to be criminal.

I'm with you for the most part but I get a bits antsy around "entertainers" sometimes the village idiot is the only one who can speak truth to power because he can say whatever the hell he wants.

I mean there are entertainers like Larry the Cable Guy and then there are entertainers like Jon Stewart....

One of those two is doing a great service to society in my opinion.

95 Gus  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:21:11pm

re: #84 austin_blue

They tried at the end of the Carter administration. Propane tanks in cars. Coal gasification plants in Colorado. The first wind farms in Cali. Lots of money for R&D. Then Saint Ronnie came in and defunded the whole thing.

Nancy Reagan has come out recently in support of stem cell research which was a good thing.

Most of the research money went to SDI if I recall correctly. Then there was the matter of Secretary of Interior, James Watt.

96 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:22:48pm

re: #63 enigma3535

Fair enough ... let's look at the "law of gravity":

It has recently experienced a bit of a crisis … based on Newtonian physics, observations of how galaxies move internally, and amongst themselves, do not make any sense … so, scientists created two variables that helped prove their existing “laws”. One was dark matter, which they postulate has been observed ... but that makes up a relative insignificant amount of the necessary mass of the variables to balance the equation the “law” of gravity requires … to actually balance the equation, scientists came up with the concept of “dark energy” [which represents the vast majority of the universe’s mass in these new equations]. Dark energy is a variable that no scientist is claiming [that I am aware of] has been observed [yet].

So, how can gravity be considered a “Law”.

IMHO, Newton had a theory that eventually was accepted as a law and that there is a ladder.

BTW, Newtonian physics is incomplete. Quantum physics is an attempt to complete the picture.

97 Digital Display  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:22:49pm

re: #92 SanFranciscoZionist

The most popular idea seems to be elite young kids just out of college, with much better degrees than those of the current teachers, who would not be unionized, would make a LOT more than we do, would work fifteen-hour days, then in a year or two, go on to become captains of industry, or, you know, important people.

Not kidding. This is the narrative I seem to be piecing together these days.

Someday we really need to have a teacher thread with our favorite teacher stories..I loved most of my teachers..Many had a great influence in my life

98 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:23:51pm

re: #66 Gus 802

I think trotting out "Lord" Christopher Monckton as an expert witness on climate science is an assault on science.

Certainly an assault on something.

99 jamesfirecat  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:24:23pm

re: #95 Gus 802

Nancy Reagan has come out recently in support of stem cell research which was a good thing.

Most of the research money went to SDI if I recall correctly. Then there was the matter of Secretary of Interior, James Watt.

You know what they say, its like the reverse of that old joke, a liberal on stem cells is a conservative whose family has been attacked by a degenerative disease...

(I'm not saying there is anything hypocritical about Nancy Regan's actions, I'm simply saying that it seems like those who have first hand experience of what its like to have a family member "fade away" the way her husband did due to a disease that stem cells seem to be the only real cure for may be in a better position to judge than someone who has not...)

100 reine.de.tout  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:25:13pm

re: #67 Obdicut

And she's going into it late, because she's had health problems. She was asked totally inappropriate questions about her age and plans for kids at every interview.

. . .

I can't believe people are still asking those sorts of questions! Neither of those things have anything to do with a person's ability to do the work necessary (and of course, I know you know that).

If they did NOT ask the same questions of ALL interviewees, then this may well be illegal, if you had any desire to pursue it. Probably not worth it.

I'm appalled these questions are still being asked by enlightened people who should know better.

101 allegro  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:25:55pm

re: #95 Gus 802

Then there was the matter of Secretary of Interior, James Watt.

There was a peach. It was such fun working for Interior at the time for a guy whose philosophy and subsequent policies revolved around his notion that conservation efforts were a total waste of time and money cuz, yanno, the rapture was a-comin'.

102 reine.de.tout  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:26:44pm

re: #75 Gus 802

Yes, I would expect that it would be for the love of the work and the love of the science. The stereotype being thrown about these days is that a lot of scientists are "in it for the money" which is a lot of hooey. The meme always includes references to tenure, grants, etc. They act as if though when a scientist gets a 250,000 dollar grant they pocket the money and spend it on silverware and such.

MOST people doing the sorts of things that require an advanced degree end up doing what they do because they have a talent and/or passion for it, NOT because of the money. For most folks, if they have enough money to live comfortably, that's all it takes.

103 Gus  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:27:13pm

re: #99 jamesfirecat

You know what they say, its like the reverse of that old joke, a liberal on stem cells is a conservative whose family has been attacked by a degenerative disease...

(I'm not saying there is anything hypocritical about Nancy Regan's actions, I'm simply saying that it seems like those who have first hand experience of what its like to have a family member "fade away" the way her husband did due to a disease that stem cells seem to be the only real cure for may be in a better position to judge than someone who has not...)

True. Although I think Nancy Reagan could be seen as a catalyst for creating converts for stem cell research.

104 reine.de.tout  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:27:46pm

re: #92 SanFranciscoZionist

The most popular idea seems to be elite young kids just out of college, with much better degrees than those of the current teachers, who would not be unionized, would make a LOT more than we do, would work fifteen-hour days, then in a year or two, go on to become captains of industry, or, you know, important people.

Not kidding. This is the narrative I seem to be piecing together these days.

It is a ridiculous one, isn't it?

105 jamesfirecat  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:28:32pm

re: #103 Gus 802

True. Although I think Nancy Reagan could be seen as a catalyst for creating converts for stem cell research.

///Until Glen Beck/Sarah Palin tell her that if she had ever really known her husband he wouldn't have supported Stem Cell research.

106 HappyWarrior  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:28:37pm

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

And then, Newsweek comes along with a magazine cover with a chalkboard with 'fire bad teachers' written over and over on it.

There's this obsessive idea that teachers are somehow getting paid to sit and do our nails while the kids run wild, and if they could just get rid of all of us...

It just amazes me the contempt some people have for our teachers. I've really been fortunate to have a lot of good teachers and professors over the years.

107 filetandrelease  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:29:14pm

re: #84 austin_blue

They tried at the end of the Carter administration. Propane tanks in cars. Coal gasification plants in Colorado. The first wind farms in Cali. Lots of money for R&D. Then Saint Ronnie came in and defunded the whole thing.

I remember that, he wasn't a complete disaster, Carter. At least he tried.

108 Gus  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:29:42pm

re: #105 jamesfirecat

///Until Glen Beck/Sarah Palin tell her that if she had ever really known her husband he wouldn't have supported Stem Cell research.

That reminds me of the recent Michael Reagan vs. Ron Reagan "who knew dad better" squabble.

109 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:30:54pm

re: #80 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, if I got a 250,000 grant, I'd spend it all on books and perfume. Just saying.

The Uni wouldn't let you.
Grad students (even undergrad sometimes (been there)) and equipment demand money.

110 Obdicut  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:31:00pm

re: #100 reine.de.tout

The people asking these questions have tenure and are going to be her peers. She's satisfied with simply letting it be known that she was asked these questions and feels that it was inappropriate, rather than suing. Also, given that she got into Cornell, there's no real damage done; she got into the best place for her.

She would consider a lawsuit time wasted by not doing science, too.

111 reine.de.tout  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:32:33pm

re: #100 reine.de.tout

I can't believe people are still asking those sorts of questions! Neither of those things have anything to do with a person's ability to do the work necessary (and of course, I know you know that).

If they did NOT ask the same questions of ALL interviewees, then this may well be illegal, if you had any desire to pursue it. Probably not worth it.

I'm appalled these questions are still being asked by enlightened people who should know better.

OBDI (sorry, I'm furious to hear this, just furious) -

If these questions come up again, I don't suggest that she antagonize the interviewer by refusing to answer, but she should answer and IMMEDIATELY follow up with all the reasons why those things WILL NOT interfere with her abiltity to do whatever it is she's interviewing for.

Because what a person is looking for when they ask that question, isn't rally the person's age or plans, they are trying to weed out those they think will be distracted by other things. So an immediate follow-up, before the interviewer can ask another question, is in order.

Sheesh.

112 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:33:02pm

re: #104 reine.de.tout

It is a ridiculous one, isn't it?

It's just not going to happen, for one thing, and it wouldn't be good if it did, that's another.

113 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:33:54pm

re: #109 b_sharp

The Uni wouldn't let you.
Grad students (even undergrad sometimes (been there)) and equipment demand money.

I was kidding.

(But I am wearing a dab of Jo Malone Orange Blossom cologne this morning, and it's LOOOVELY.)

114 reine.de.tout  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:33:58pm

re: #110 Obdicut

The people asking these questions have tenure and are going to be her peers. She's satisfied with simply letting it be known that she was asked these questions and feels that it was inappropriate, rather than suing. Also, given that she got into Cornell, there's no real damage done; she got into the best place for her.

She would consider a lawsuit time wasted by not doing science, too.

I hear you.
But it's just infuriating to me, that these questions are still being asked. Their HR Department has fallen down on the job, if they allow interviewers to ask these questions. What the interviewer is really looking for is - are there any impediments in your life to doing whatever is required? And THAT should be the question. Not questions about age or plans for family.

115 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:35:21pm

What is the word used for posters who open up a can of worms then high tail it out of the thread because the worms aren't as tasty as first thought?

116 sattv4u2  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:36:27pm

re: #107 filetandrelease

I remember that, he wasn't a complete disaster, Carter. At least he tried.

Yeah ,,, I long for those odd/even days of filling up my tank and,, getting to a gas station at 6 in the morning (for an 8 a.m opening) to find myself 30th in line,,, double digit inflation and unemployent rates ,,,, America citizens held hostage for over 400 days ,,,

Ahh ,,, nostalgia!

117 reine.de.tout  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:38:01pm

re: #115 b_sharp

What is the word used for posters who open up a can of worms then high tail it out of the thread because the worms aren't as tasty as first thought?

I usually try to assume a person has gotten distracted by work/home stuff and maybe has left for just a bit. That happens. There are also a few who do what you've talked about.

118 filetandrelease  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:38:01pm

re: #116 sattv4u2
Close mind you.

119 allegro  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:38:20pm

re: #111 reine.de.tout

Because what a person is looking for when they ask that question, isn't rally the person's age or plans, they are trying to weed out those they think will be distracted by other things. So an immediate follow-up, before the interviewer can ask another question, is in order.

Sheesh.

I think you are being extraordinarily generous. A woman who has gone as far as she has to this point with her obvious dedication and talent has already well demonstrated that she is not particularly distractable (is that a word?). Questions like this have the purpose of putting a woman "in her place", IMO. They are NEVER asked of men.

120 sattv4u2  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:38:55pm

re: #92 SanFranciscoZionist

The most popular idea seems to be elite young kids just out of college, with much better degrees than those of the current teachers, who would not be unionized, would make a LOT more than we do, would work fifteen-hour days, then in a year or two, go on to become captains of industry, or, you know, important people.

Not kidding. This is the narrative I seem to be piecing together these days.

Are their degrees in Education, or something else and are just willing to take a teachers job until something opens in their field?

Because if they DO have an ED degree, they won't just be able to "become captains of industry" after a couple of years teaching!

just sayin'

121 Obdicut  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:39:07pm

re: #114 reine.de.tout

Part of the problem is it's a bunch of tenured professors and established doctors doing the interviews. They're both old-guard and used to getting their own way.

She also noticed-- since the same general pool of applicants is common between the top-tier institutions-- that at most of the interviews, the gay students tended to 'straighten up', and only at a few institutions did they seem comfortable being out.

122 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:39:50pm

re: #120 sattv4u2

Are their degrees in Education, or something else and are just willing to take a teachers job until something opens in their field?

Because if they DO have an ED degree, they won't just be able to "become captains of industry" after a couple of years teaching!

just sayin'

No, no, that's the whole point. They won't have an ed degree, they will have degrees in more classy things, they will be the best and brightest, and this will be a couple of years in public service on their way to the stars.

123 Bipartite Gnomenclature  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:40:20pm

re: #117 reine.de.tout

I usually try to assume a person has gotten distracted by work/home stuff and maybe has left for just a bit. That happens. There are also a few who do what you've talked about.

Yah, you are right.

I was hoping for some substantial arguments beyond the ridiculous to bite in to.

Well, I've got money to make, so see you all later.

124 sattv4u2  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:40:54pm

re: #118 filetandrelease

Close mind you.

More like good memory

Don't get me wrong, Carter has some wonderful qualities. I have even met him as me and a friend of mine sponsered a Habitat for Humanity (sponser ='s donate $$$$$). But his presidency was a disaster and he is now double down on that with his stance on Pali/ Israel issues

125 reine.de.tout  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:41:40pm

re: #119 allegro

I think you are being extraordinarily generous. A woman who has gone as far as she has to this point with her obvious dedication and talent has already well demonstrated that she is not particularly distractable (is that a word?). Questions like this have the purpose of putting a woman "in her place", IMO. They are NEVER asked of men.

Oh, of course they are never asked of men.

And of course these sorts of questions have the purpose of putting a woman "in her place". Which is why they should NEVER be asked.

And a supervisor will then tell you, b-b-b-but I need to know if she's able to come in and do the job!!!
*yeah, right*

My answer was - well, then, a good questions for ALL applicants is to ask if they are able to work X number of hours a week under X circumstances, and let the applicant say yea or nay. That's the real question. And it's appropriate and a good question to ask of everyone.

126 sattv4u2  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:42:59pm

re: #122 SanFranciscoZionist

No, no, that's the whole point. They won't have an ed degree, they will have degrees in more classy things, they will be the best and brightest, and this will be a couple of years in public service on their way to the stars.

K ,,just checking

BUT ,, thats not limited to teaching. Many with great degrees can't find something in their field and take things nowhere related to it and keep their ears to the ground until an opening IN their field comes up! I don't blame them, actually. I worked outside of my field for years before I landed the job (in field) that I've had for the last 12 years

127 reine.de.tout  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:43:20pm

re: #121 Obdicut

Part of the problem is it's a bunch of tenured professors and established doctors doing the interviews. They're both old-guard and used to getting their own way.

She also noticed-- since the same general pool of applicants is common between the top-tier institutions-- that at most of the interviews, the gay students tended to 'straighten up', and only at a few institutions did they seem comfortable being out.

Was that a question asked in the interview (are you gay?). I can't imagine that. I'm not sure what you mean by "straightening up". "Gayness" is not obvious, and I can't believe it would be an interview topic.

128 sattv4u2  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:44:15pm

re: #123 b_sharp

Yah, you are right.

I was hoping for some substantial arguments beyond the ridiculous to bite in to.

Well, I've got money to make, so see you all later.


Going to find tastier worms !?!?

//

129 allegro  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:44:46pm

re: #125 reine.de.tout

My answer was - well, then, a good questions for ALL applicants is to ask if they are able to work X number of hours a week under X circumstances, and let the applicant say yea or nay. That's the real question. And it's appropriate and a good question to ask of everyone.

Absolutely agreed. I am sincerely shocked that this isn't the standard now.

130 filetandrelease  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:45:09pm

re: #124 sattv4u2
I meant close to a complete disaster, of course your memory serves you well. His redeeming quality was an effort to steer the country into energy independence.

131 Obdicut  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:46:20pm

re: #127 reine.de.tout

Well, there are certain aspects of gayness that are culturally recognizable. It's not all stereotypes, or rather, it's a cultural stereotype like any other, and many gays participate in it.

She meant that people she knew were gay were careful not to display any cultural signs associated with gayness at a lot of the institutions.

132 sattv4u2  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:46:31pm

re: #130 filetandrelease

I meant close to a complete disaster, of course your memory serves you well. His redeeming quality was an effort to steer the country into energy independence.

{sigh}


EVERY President in my memory (think IKE) has stated he wants to "steer the country into energy independence"

EVERY
SINGLE
ONE!

133 allegro  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:46:54pm

re: #127 reine.de.tout

"Gayness" is not obvious...

You haven't met some of my friends. ;)

134 filetandrelease  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:48:53pm

re: #132 sattv4u2
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Carter actually make efforts? Spending money on research? Wind? It was a while ago but I seem to recall him making an effort, not just speaking the words.

135 reine.de.tout  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:49:45pm

re: #133 allegro

You haven't met some of my friends. ;)

Honestly - assumptions like that are dangerous to make. I know plenty of people who might appear at first glance to be 'gay" but they're not. And others who appear to be heterosexual, who are not.

I also know plenty of Louisiana creoles of mixed Spanish/African ancestry who are whiter than I am, but self-identify as "black".

I do not make any assumptions.

136 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:51:00pm

re: #126 sattv4u2

K ,,just checking

BUT ,, thats not limited to teaching. Many with great degrees can't find something in their field and take things nowhere related to it and keep their ears to the ground until an opening IN their field comes up! I don't blame them, actually. I worked outside of my field for years before I landed the job (in field) that I've had for the last 12 years

I don't think you quite understand--this is the vision some people have for how teaching will WORK, in general. This is the plan, for them. This is Michelle Rhee's ideal future for American teaching. And it's based on a deep, abiding contempt for teachers.

137 filetandrelease  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:51:10pm

re: #135 reine.de.tout
Even if he is wearing a dress?

138 allegro  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:51:32pm

re: #135 reine.de.tout

Honestly - assumptions like that are dangerous to make. I know plenty of people who might appear at first glance to be 'gay" but they're not. And others who appear to be heterosexual, who are not.

I also know plenty of Louisiana creoles of mixed Spanish/African ancestry who are whiter than I am, but self-identify as "black".

I do not make any assumptions.

A wise point. I was speaking of friends who are proudly and openly out - no assumptions required.

139 sattv4u2  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:51:38pm

re: #127 reine.de.tout

Was that a question asked in the interview (are you gay?). I can't imagine that. I'm not sure what you mean by "straightening up". "Gayness" is not obvious, and I can't believe it would be an interview topic.


[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

only openly "gay" male athelet

and there is NO way he "looks" it

140 wrenchwench  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:52:26pm

re: #132 sattv4u2

EVERY President in my memory (think IKE) has stated he wants to "steer the country into energy independence"

You only remember Ike?

.

.

/

141 allegro  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:52:34pm

re: #137 filetandrelease

Even if he is wearing a dress?

Many cross-dressers are not gay, or even bi. They just like dressing in an alternate gender manner.

142 sattv4u2  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:52:42pm

re: #134 filetandrelease

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Carter actually make efforts? Spending money on research? Wind? It was a while ago but I seem to recall him making an effort, not just speaking the words.

He did, but again, to one degree or another so has every president before (post 1955 ish) and after Carter

143 Obdicut  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:53:13pm

re: #135 reine.de.tout

Absolutely true. I have a friend who is a total, well, lady-killer-- a nice, respectful one, but very much all about extremely heterosexual romance-- who most people think is gay on meeting him.

Plus, Eddie Izzard.

144 reine.de.tout  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:54:13pm

re: #137 filetandrelease

Even if he is wearing a dress?

Even if he's wearing a dress.

Seriously.
I just take folks as they come.
They can open up about themselves at some point, or not.
Race, sexual orientation - not what I base my likes or dislikes on.

145 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:54:28pm

re: #141 allegro

Many cross-dressers are not gay, or even bi. They just like dressing in an alternate gender manner.

Hence, the classic letters to Dear Abby by the frantic lady who's discovered that her husband is borrowing her underwear.

146 sattv4u2  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:54:56pm

re: #136 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't think you quite understand--this is the vision some people have for how teaching will WORK, in general. This is the plan, for them. This is Michelle Rhee's ideal future for American teaching. And it's based on a deep, abiding contempt for teachers.

No,, I 100% understand it. My wife is certified (in two states) taecher. Massachusetts since the early 70's and Georgia since 1999

All I am saying is that (some) people have always gone into teaching until something in their feild comes up, just as they often go into other fields (retail, for instance)

147 reine.de.tout  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:55:03pm

re: #145 SanFranciscoZionist

Hence, the classic letters to Dear Abby by the frantic lady who's discovered that her husband is borrowing her underwear.

And they still come in to Abby's replacements!

148 reine.de.tout  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:56:19pm

OK, I'm off!
I don't want anyone thinking I'm hightailing it outta here to avoid a can of worms somewhere.

149 allegro  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:57:21pm

re: #145 SanFranciscoZionist

Hence, the classic letters to Dear Abby by the frantic lady who's discovered that her husband is borrowing her underwear.

I have one friend, a very macho, totally het guy, whose late wife was my dearest friend. I went over there one day to see him completely decked out with the big hair, way too heavy makeup (really lacking in taste, I thought, with that dark purple eyeshadow), dress, heels, the whole bit. Stunned the daylights outa me.

150 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 8, 2010 12:58:06pm

re: #146 sattv4u2

No,, I 100% understand it. My wife is certified (in two states) taecher. Massachusetts since the early 70's and Georgia since 1999

All I am saying is that (some) people have always gone into teaching until something in their feild comes up, just as they often go into other fields (retail, for instance)

True, and that's fine. Gutting the whole profession, on the other hand...

151 sattv4u2  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:00:11pm

Okay ,, I'm gonzo also

Son just asked
A) is tomorrow Mothers day
(and when he got an affirmative answer
B) can I take him to the store!

{sigh} ,, 15 year old boys!

152 allegro  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:01:53pm

re: #151 sattv4u2

Aw, he's a good son. I haven't gotten that stack of mother's day cards from my kids since my husband died. My kids all having fur or feathers, they can't drive or qualify for debit cards.

153 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:18:15pm

So, the NAS has been taken over by socialist America-hating AGW conspirators, it seems.

I bet LVQ is behind it all!

154 freetoken  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:20:03pm

Meanwhile, on a related topic:

Problem for Containment Dome in Gulf

4:15 p.m. %P% Updated Officials for BP on Saturday encountered a significant setback in their efforts to attach a containment dome over a leaking well on the seabed of the Gulf of Mexico, forcing them to move the dome aside while they evaluate find another method to cap the crude oil flowing into the Gulf since April 20.

Officials discovered that gas hydrates, ice-like crystals lighter than water, had built up inside the 100-ton metal container. The hydrates tried to make the dome buoyant, and they also plugged up the top of the dome, preventing it from being effective.

Methane... our friend, or foe?

155 Ben Jhazi  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:21:51pm

re: #154 freetoken

Meanwhile, on a related topic:

Problem for Containment Dome in Gulf

Methane... our friend, or foe?

Pfft. Everyone knows that methane is constantly spewing from bovine buttocks. How bad can it be...?

156 Daniel Ballard  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:22:24pm

re: #154 freetoken

The hose has warm water pumped into its outer layer to prevent this in the hose. It's a flammable slurpee in that box. More warm water maybe?

157 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:23:32pm

re: #92 SanFranciscoZionist

The most popular idea seems to be elite young kids just out of college, with much better degrees than those of the current teachers, who would not be unionized, would make a LOT more than we do, would work fifteen-hour days, then in a year or two, go on to become captains of industry, or, you know, important people.

Not kidding. This is the narrative I seem to be piecing together these days.

Isn't that the whole idea behind "Teach for America", which has been around for a couple of decades and does just that?

You go and teach for a couple of years on your way to being a superstar somewhere else. Great CV material, everybody pats you on the back for taking on "those" kids in "those" schools for a while, and then poof! you're gone.

It's a feel-good crock, as far as I can judge.

158 allegro  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:25:44pm

re: #157 Cato the Elder

You go and teach for a couple of years on your way to being a superstar somewhere else. Great CV material, everybody pats you on the back for taking on "those" kids in "those" schools for a while, and then poof! you're gone.

It's a feel-good crock, as far as I can judge.

Knowing a subject inside out doesn't mean there's an ability there to teach it. It amazes me the number of people who don't get that teaching is a skill and art in itself.

159 Nimed  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:28:20pm

re: #157 Cato the Elder

Hey man. Thoughts on the first book?

160 freetoken  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:28:49pm

re: #156 Rightwingconspirator

I guess the question would be - how warm? (And, how much warm water can they recycle through the thing.)

Remember, this is in 5000 feet of water, most of it (below the upper, very warm layer) is rather cold.

The fear by some (and I don't have the expertise to weigh this) is that the nature of the oil is changing as the leak is progressing, and that what may be happening is that the well (in the ground) may be deteriorating, and that the open hole (drilled in the ground, we're not talking the riser here) may become fully open, essentially a giant oil geyser.

I put up a link a while back about asphalt domes found off of Santa Barbara, where in the past oil seeps have naturally formed and became small fountains, resulting in mounds of tar. But in those cases the seeping was at a much lower rate than what we see in this accident.

161 avanti  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:28:52pm

Gates wants to trim defense costs, but it's Obama that will get the flack.

"ABILENE, Kansas (Reuters) – Defense Secretary Robert Gates told the U.S. military on Saturday it must rein in spending that he called out of sync with today's tough economic times, and said budget woes could be a factor in deciding whether to use force against Iran and others.

Promising to play a hands-on role in wringing out savings, Gates held out the possibility of axing headquarters, merging whole agencies and culling the officer corps, taking on entrenched interests sure to put up a fight."

more.

162 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:30:09pm

re: #159 Nimed

Hey man. Thoughts on the first book?

Blew. Me. Away.

I'm well into Volume Two already. Unputdownable.

Daenerys is going to rock the world with her dragons, I can see that. And Tyrion is going to surprise everybody, over and over.

As for Arya, she is my new favorite fighter grrrl.

163 allegro  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:31:25pm

re: #161 avanti

Gates wants to trim defense costs, but it's Obama that will get the flack praise.

In a reasonable world.

164 Lidane  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:33:45pm

re: #98 b_sharp

Certainly an assault on something.

Common sense, for starters. Reason as well.

165 ryannon  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:34:02pm

re: #158 allegro

Knowing a subject inside out doesn't mean there's an ability there to teach it. It amazes me the number of people who don't get that teaching is a skill and art in itself.

Which like most skills and art, it takes years to perfect - as well as being a permanent work in progress.

166 pingjockey  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:34:43pm

re: #163 allegro

In a reasonable world the Pentagon wouldn't get saddled with spending they don't want, but the plant is in some senator or congress critters district.

167 recusancy  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:34:45pm

re: #132 sattv4u2

{sigh}

EVERY President in my memory (think IKE) has stated he wants to "steer the country into energy independence"

EVERY
SINGLE
ONE!

But he actually tried rather then just talk about it.

168 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:35:22pm

Update on the Westboro "Baptist" "Church" loons in Baltimore:

They decided not to show up.

Maybe the tracking and advance notice that WBC watchers are giving their targets is making it harder for them to do their slimy shtick. I drove by the Cathedral at about 11:00 this morning and there was a massive police presence, which would not ever normally be the case at a funeral unless these cretins were scheduled to make an appearance.

169 The Curmudgeon  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:35:59pm

re: #71 b_sharp

Curm, the attacks are the same as the DI does to scientists. Their arguments are full of personal attacks, lies and innuendo. The attempts at damaging personal reputation is McCarthy-like.

I know. It's easy for me to deal with the creationists' arguments, but I don't know enough about climate change to even be a skeptic. So I sit it out on the sidelines, growling at Al Gore, but saying little else.

170 pingjockey  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:36:10pm

re: #168 Cato the Elder
Good. Those 'people' are jerks.

171 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:38:36pm

re: #157 Cato the Elder

Isn't that the whole idea behind "Teach for America", which has been around for a couple of decades and does just that?

You go and teach for a couple of years on your way to being a superstar somewhere else. Great CV material, everybody pats you on the back for taking on "those" kids in "those" schools for a while, and then poof! you're gone.

It's a feel-good crock, as far as I can judge.

Yes, and Yes.

172 freetoken  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:39:08pm

re: #17 tradewind

Without regard to the merit of their argument, scientists en masse have never been shy about dishing it out to their heretical brethren who don't subscribe...they should be able to take the same without hysterics.
Especially if they are secure in their beliefs.

You are overlooking the actual legal hunters, the true McCarthyites. E.g., the AG of Virginia in his new witch hunt, and Senator Inhofe in is cheerleading of efforts to this end.

173 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:39:39pm

re: #165 ryannon

Which like most skills and art, it takes years to perfect - as well as being a permanent work in progress.

Yeah. The first couple of years, you suck. Almost no matter what.

174 Nimed  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:40:14pm

re: #162 Cato the Elder

Blew. Me. Away.

I'm well into Volume Two already. Unputdownable.

Daenerys is going to rock the world with her dragons, I can see that. And Tyrion is going to surprise everybody, over and over.

As for Arya, she is my new favorite fighter grrrl.

And here I was thinking you would show up all tear-eyed due to certain events in the end of the book.

I loved Ed's trajectory in the King's Landing court as the Hand. You really believe in, hu, Hope and Change for a while.

Tyrion, Arya and Daenerys are my favs too. Sometimes I have to fight the temptation to skip to their next chapters.

175 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:40:17pm

re: #168 Cato the Elder

Update on the Westboro "Baptist" "Church" loons in Baltimore:

They decided not to show up.

Maybe the tracking and advance notice that WBC watchers are giving their targets is making it harder for them to do their slimy shtick. I drove by the Cathedral at about 11:00 this morning and there was a massive police presence, which would not ever normally be the case at a funeral unless these cretins were scheduled to make an appearance.

Thank God, and the Catholic ladies with their poles and sheets.

176 Lidane  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:41:36pm

re: #168 Cato the Elder

Update on the Westboro "Baptist" "Church" loons in Baltimore:

They decided not to show up.

Maybe the tracking and advance notice that WBC watchers are giving their targets is making it harder for them to do their slimy shtick.

Good. Those WBC assholes make their money off provoking their targets into reacting, then suing them into bankruptcy. The sooner that tactic is neutralized, the better.

177 really grumpy big dog johnson  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:41:46pm

Without drawing any conclusions whatsoever, I'd like to point out that the signatures of 255 members of the NAS represents less than one-eighth of that body's entire membership.

I'm a bit curious as to why the number of signatories isn't higher, and it would be interesting to see a breakdown of those who signed by discipline. Few of the NAS disciplines deal directly with this issue.

About the NAS

178 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:42:27pm

re: #174 Nimed

And here I was thinking you would show up all tear-eyed due to certain events in the end of the book.

I loved Ed's trajectory in the King's Landing court as the Hand. You really believe in, hu, Hope and Change for a while.

Tyrion, Arya and Daenerys are my favs too. Sometimes I have to fight the temptation to skip to their next chapters.

I am reading too fast for tears. That will come the second time around. Or maybe the first time once I get further into the series.

I'm starting to warm up to Sansa, the poor little nitwit. A hard character to love, at first.

179 Ben Jhazi  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:43:43pm

re: #178 Cato the Elder

I am reading too fast for tears. That will come the second time around. Or maybe the first time once I get further into the series.

I'm starting to warm up to Sansa, the poor little nitwit. A hard character to love, at first.

Wow. I wasn't expecting you to be done with book one already. Good work.

180 charlz  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:44:08pm

re: #163 allegro

Gates wants to trim defense costs, but it's Obama that will get the flack praise.
In a reasonable world.

All Federal agencies are in the midst of FY2012 budget preparation and are under orders from OMB to do their part to rein in budgets with deficit reduction in mind. We'll see how serious Gates is when we see the budget he submits and whether DoD agencies are permitted to lobby against specific reductions. And that's before congresscritters start protecting their own pet programs. In other words this is the same old Washington shell game.

181 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:48:37pm

re: #157 Cato the Elder

Isn't that the whole idea behind "Teach for America", which has been around for a couple of decades and does just that?

You go and teach for a couple of years on your way to being a superstar somewhere else. Great CV material, everybody pats you on the back for taking on "those" kids in "those" schools for a while, and then poof! you're gone.

It's a feel-good crock, as far as I can judge.

One guy who went through TfA, and actually became a teacher, after a few horrible years of being very very bad at it, has done some writing. One of the things he comments on is that TfA, if you seem good, actually tries to pull you out of the classroom early, and use your skills to promote the organization--give you a job in the main office, have you travel and recruit...

Found that very interesting.

He's still teaching math, and wrote one of the funniest books about classroom management that I have ever read.

182 Nimed  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:49:41pm

re: #178 Cato the Elder

I am reading too fast for tears. That will come the second time around. Or maybe the first time once I get further into the series.

I'm starting to warm up to Sansa, the poor little nitwit. A hard character to love, at first.

Tell me about it. I'd nominate Joffrey as the Character You'd Most Like to Drown with Your Bare Hands, though there are plenty of contenders.

What about Dany's sex scenes? Pretty... detailed. Mr. Martin, you're one sick bastard.

183 charlz  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:50:12pm

re: #174 Nimed

And here I was thinking you would show up all tear-eyed due to certain events in the end of the book.

Dang, not sure what you guys are talking about, but for a sec there I thought maybe I had missed publication of A Dance with Dragons. I've had that preordered forever.

184 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:52:16pm

re: #181 SanFranciscoZionist

One guy who went through TfA, and actually became a teacher, after a few horrible years of being very very bad at it, has done some writing. One of the things he comments on is that TfA, if you seem good, actually tries to pull you out of the classroom early, and use your skills to promote the organization--give you a job in the main office, have you travel and recruit...

Found that very interesting.

He's still teaching math, and wrote one of the funniest books about classroom management that I have ever read.

The founder of TfA, Wendy something or other, struck me as a social-climbing opportunistic twit when I read about her back in the early '90s. But she sure had her patter down.

185 Nimed  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:53:16pm

re: #181 SanFranciscoZionist

He's still teaching math, and wrote one of the funniest books about classroom management that I have ever read.

Funny classroom management books? Talk about a niche market.

186 Nimed  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:54:52pm

re: #183 charlz

Dang, not sure what you guys are talking about, but for a sec there I thought maybe I had missed publication of A Dance with Dragons. I've had that preordered forever.

I followed Martin's blog for a while, but at some point you're just torturing yourself. I just don't think about it anymore. A friend of mine lives in permanent fear that something will happen to Martin before he finishes the series.

187 austin_blue  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:56:24pm

re: #177 really grumpy big dog johnson

Without drawing any conclusions whatsoever, I'd like to point out that the signatures of 255 members of the NAS represents less than one-eighth of that body's entire membership.

I'm a bit curious as to why the number of signatories isn't higher, and it would be interesting to see a breakdown of those who signed by discipline. Few of the NAS disciplines deal directly with this issue.

About the NAS

Keep reading the post!

"It is hard to get 255 members of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences to agree on pretty much anything, making the import of this letter even more substantial. Moreover, only a small fraction of National Academy members were asked to sign (the signatories are all members of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences but were not speaking on its behalf). Because of a desire to produce a statement quickly, the coordinators of the letter focused on those sections of the NAS most familiar with climate science and the ongoing debate. But the NAS (and Academies of Sciences and other professional scientific societies from dozens of other nations) has previously published a long set of assessments and reviews of the science of climate change, which support the conclusions laid out in the Science essay."

188 freetoken  Sat, May 8, 2010 1:59:38pm

re: #187 austin_blue

Keep reading the post!


Shhhh....

You'll spoil the show.

189 charlz  Sat, May 8, 2010 2:00:07pm

re: #186 Nimed

I followed Martin's blog for a while, but at some point you're just torturing yourself. I just don't think about it anymore.

8-) Same here. The torture comes from his prattle about all the other projects he's working on -- everything but the damn book! I don't expect a reply here -- looks like I've killed another thread.

190 jvic  Sat, May 8, 2010 2:01:17pm

re: #184 Cato the Elder

The founder of TfA, Wendy something or other, struck me as a social-climbing opportunistic twit when I read about her back in the early '90s. But she sure had her patter down.

I haven't followed the thread in depth, so the following might have been mentioned already.

How I Joined Teach for America—and Got Sued for $20 Million

191 Ben Jhazi  Sat, May 8, 2010 2:09:36pm

re: #189 charlz

8-) Same here. The torture comes from his prattle about all the other projects he's working on -- everything but the damn book! I don't expect a reply here -- looks like I've killed another thread.

If it's any consolation, I believe the HBO series could only put more pressure on him to finish this series up. Assuming it's successful, but I'm feeling optimistic.

192 jvic  Sat, May 8, 2010 2:10:19pm

re: #177 really grumpy big dog johnson

Without drawing any conclusions whatsoever, I'd like to point out that the signatures of 255 members of the NAS represents less than one-eighth of that body's entire membership.

I'm a bit curious as to why the number of signatories isn't higher, and it would be interesting to see a breakdown of those who signed by discipline. Few of the NAS disciplines deal directly with this issue.

Per Comment #61, I took a quick look at this. IMHO a quantitative breakdown would be of interest.

193 steve_davis  Sat, May 8, 2010 3:21:32pm

What especially irritates me about global warming denialists is their thoroughly lazy approach to counter-arguments. They don't find a competing, compelling theory to global warming. Instead their entire rebuttal consists of "But what about..." statements. They're confronted with tens of thousands of peer-reviewed pages of support for global warming, and the response it, "But what about the 40 square-mile region in Antarctica where things have gotten colder?" "What about the temperature on Mars?" "What about that two-year blip in warming that we detected by arbitrarily choosing a convenient start and end point for our graph?" I mean, the reason I call this approach lazy is because it isn't even Scholasticism. At least when Aquinas did this, he was smart enough to approach the same subjects over and over again, from different angles, and he normally tried to break objections to things down into very bite-sized pieces. And by the way, Aquinas would think the denialists were the stupidest collection of jackasses he'd ever encountered. Read the first few entries in the Summa Theologica and the first thing that will probably strike you is how scientifically literate Aquinas was for somebody living in the early Middle Ages. Whatever friction exists between science and religion wasn't there before Galileo started poking Aristotle in the eye, that's for damned sure.

194 lostlakehiker  Sat, May 8, 2010 4:20:54pm

re: #86 SanFranciscoZionist

And then, Newsweek comes along with a magazine cover with a chalkboard with 'fire bad teachers' written over and over on it.

There's this obsessive idea that teachers are somehow getting paid to sit and do our nails while the kids run wild, and if they could just get rid of all of us...

But there really are good teachers and bad teachers. Formal education, grades, and test scores are not very good predictors of teaching effectiveness. The only way to tell who will be a good teacher, it seems, is to throw them in the classroom and see if they sink or swim.

The ones who sink take down their students with them. The good ones float their kids along. A reasonable response to this set of facts would be to design a statistical test that looks at student outcomes, say, how well they test at the beginning of their next school year compared to how well they tested last year and their overall usual rate of progress up til now. Students who progressed more than one might have predicted should count as a plus for the teacher, and conversely.

Teachers who fall in the bottom few percent repeatedly by this measure should be dismissed. Teachers who rank in the top ten or twenty percent should be asked to hold workshops and see if any of it can rub off on the middle, and they should be rewarded. Principles who manage to lift teachers to new levels of effectiveness, as measured by how well their students actually do compared to what one might have expected going just on what the student had done so far, would also be rewarded. Teachers at schools that did a good job generally, even if their own contribution were just middling, should be cut a share of the prize money. You want a team effort and team rewards make sense.

This approach safeguards teachers from the danger that they'll be judged bad teachers because they got a class of slow learners---the slow learners were slow before they got to him/her and more slow progress would be expected, so if they made middling progress under the teacher that would be a plus not a downding. It's not at all draconian. Most lines of work you can't hold your job if you're in the bottom few percent repeatedly. And it puts more children in classes with good teachers. Even if class sizes must rise a bit, being under the wing of a good, or at least a middling good, teacher is better for the student.

To the extent there are teachers who are bad because they don't care and don't work at their job, this system would incentivize them and they'd improve. I don't think we'd see any statistically significant number of such cases, but there has to be somebody out there somewhere who fits this description.

195 freetoken  Sat, May 8, 2010 6:45:31pm

re: #193 steve_davis

What especially irritates me about global warming denialists is their thoroughly lazy approach to counter-arguments. They don't find a competing, compelling theory to global warming. Instead their entire rebuttal consists of "But what about..." statements. ...


I call this dance of theirs the "Creationist Conga".


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