Environmentalist Peter Sinclair’s latest video looks at the current state of a very promising energy production technology, already yielding big benefits in other countries. How does “negative energy pricing” sound to you?
1 |
political lunatic Sat, May 8, 2010 1:34:08pm |
Pfft, wind is for communists and sekrit Kenyan Muslim presidents. Oil and coal is where Real Murrka gets their energy. The negative pricing on wind energy must be some of the same environazi conspiracy that spilled all that oil in the Gulf. //
| 2 |
Political Atheist Sat, May 8, 2010 1:35:20pm |
IMHO, not just big wind farms either, many individuals could take advantage of this technology. Perhaps even residential homes in windy areas could take advantage. I'd love to get a check or a reduced electric bill out of those wicked Santa Ana winds we get around my area.
| 3 |
Cato the Elder Sat, May 8, 2010 1:39:08pm |
re: #2 Rightwingconspirator
IMHO, not just big wind farms either, many individuals could take advantage of this technology. Perhaps even residential homes in windy areas could take advantage. I'd love to get a check or a reduced electric bill out of those wicked Santa Ana winds we get around my area.
People have tried to do that in Baltimore, but so far every single one who has applied for a zoning variance for a quiet, compact, state-of-the-art rooftop windmill has been blocked by NIMBY neighbors. Many of whom have gotten variances for rooftop decks where they hold loud, drunken parties every weekend during the summer.
| 4 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 8, 2010 1:43:28pm |
From Shit My Dad Says: "War hero? No. I was a doc in Vietnam. My job was to say "This is what happens when you screw a hooker, kid. Put this cream on your pecker."
| 5 |
Political Atheist Sat, May 8, 2010 1:44:03pm |
re: #3 Cato the Elder
That exact issue is going to be my pet AGW peeve. Right now the biggest obstacle to grass roots alternative energy is local authorities. CC&R's, Building And Safety, those guys. They have no clue about how to test or approve gray water, cisterns, or rooftop solar let alone fuel cells or hyperion installations. The states on down need to get on this. Lets not have permit issues, or collapsing roofs from poor installations.
| 6 |
recusancy Sat, May 8, 2010 1:45:38pm |
This is something that every city should do in my opinion: Wind and Solar electricity producing street lamps. The poll and obstruction is already there so there's nothing for residents to get pissed about. Could save cities tons of money.
| 7 |
MandyManners Sat, May 8, 2010 1:47:57pm |
Let's put a turbine in the doorway of the Capitol building--that place if full of hot air.
| 8 |
recusancy Sat, May 8, 2010 1:48:19pm |
re: #5 Rightwingconspirator
That exact issue is going to be my pet AGW peeve. Right now the biggest obstacle to grass roots alternative energy is local authorities. CC&R's, Building And Safety, those guys. They have no clue about how to test or approve gray water, cisterns, or rooftop solar let alone fuel cells or hyperion installations. The states on down need to get on this. Lets not have permit issues, or collapsing roofs from poor installations.
It should be on the docket of the next governors meeting. A whole workshop to educate and take that knowledge back to their states to be implemented.
| 9 |
brookly red Sat, May 8, 2010 1:48:34pm |
I have now problem with wind power (except that it goes wup, wup, wup) but I really like hydro... it's quiet & I live by the river.
| 10 |
Cato the Elder Sat, May 8, 2010 1:48:52pm |
re: #5 Rightwingconspirator
That exact issue is going to be my pet AGW peeve. Right now the biggest obstacle to grass roots alternative energy is local authorities. CC&R's, Building And Safety, those guys. They have no clue about how to test or approve gray water, cisterns, or rooftop solar let alone fuel cells or hyperion installations. The states on down need to get on this. Lets not have permit issues, or collapsing roofs from poor installations.
But it's not just the authorities, it's the NIMBYs, some of whom consider themselves to be greener than green until, say, a windmill farm is proposed for their favorite hill in Western Massachusetts. Or a biomass plant. When I was living there this past winter, a guy who was close to getting such a plant approved found himself pictured on eco-fascist "wanted" posters, for "crimes against the environment". Dead or alive. With all his personal info right there on the poster, in case some loon decided to take it seriously.
I think one of the biggest obstacles is and will continue to be hippies who are fine with anything as long as it doesn't spoil their personal view.
| 11 |
avanti Sat, May 8, 2010 1:51:39pm |
re: #2 Rightwingconspirator
IMHO, not just big wind farms either, many individuals could take advantage of this technology. Perhaps even residential homes in windy areas could take advantage. I'd love to get a check or a reduced electric bill out of those wicked Santa Ana winds we get around my area.
Here's some home turbine.
| 12 |
allegro Sat, May 8, 2010 1:51:39pm |
re: #10 Cato the Elder
I think one of the biggest obstacles is and will continue to be hippies who are fine with anything as long as it doesn't spoil their personal view.
While I agree with your NIMBY assessment, it isn't hippies who are doing the objecting.
| 13 |
really grumpy big dog Johnson Sat, May 8, 2010 1:51:47pm |
Are any downsides to wind energy, other than the killing of birds and possible noise for those in the general vicinity? (besides payback time - if ever - for some of us)
The law of conservation of energy suggests that if the energy is stored for our use, then whatever it might have been doing otherwise must be impacted.
I don't guess anyone who care to guess what the potential issues might be? You never know, a lack of knowledge can be a dangerous thing...
| 14 |
recusancy Sat, May 8, 2010 1:52:28pm |
| 15 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 8, 2010 1:53:10pm |
| 16 |
Cato the Elder Sat, May 8, 2010 1:54:20pm |
re: #12 allegro
While I agree with your NIMBY assessment, it isn't hippies who are doing the objecting.
Oh yes it is. At least some places.
Hiyuppies or yuhippies, and the old guard, too.
And forget about nuclear. Any plant proposed today will spend thirty years in litigation before the ground can ever be broken.
| 17 |
recusancy Sat, May 8, 2010 1:54:36pm |
re: #15 SanFranciscoZionist
Cheaper than solar panels, looks like.
No doubt. I was just making the point that that one is on the more expensive end of the turbine spectrum. You can find ones for a grand or lower.
| 18 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, May 8, 2010 1:54:36pm |
Who's peeking out from under a stairway
Calling a name that's lighter than air
Who's bending down to give me a rainbow
Everyone knows it's Windy
Who's tripping down the streets of the city
Smiling at everybody she sees
Who's reaching out to capture a moment
Everyone knows it's Windy
And Windy has stormy eyes
That flash at the sound of lies
And Windy has wings to fly
Above the clouds, above the clouds
Who's tripping down the streets of the city
Smiling at everybody she sees
Who's reaching out to capture a moment
Everyone knows it's Windy
| 19 |
avanti Sat, May 8, 2010 1:55:21pm |
| 20 |
recusancy Sat, May 8, 2010 1:55:56pm |
| 21 |
wrenchwench Sat, May 8, 2010 1:56:12pm |
re: #18 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
The power of my hate for that song is greater than that generated by a thousand windmills.
| 22 |
Cato the Elder Sat, May 8, 2010 1:57:04pm |
Today's "Frank Says", quoted for great truth:
"If you wind up with a boring, miserable life because you listened to your mom, your dad, your teacher, your priest or some guy on TV telling you how to do your shit, then YOU DESERVE IT." -- From the Real Frank Zappa book.
| 23 |
brookly red Sat, May 8, 2010 1:57:57pm |
re: #21 wrenchwench
The power of my hate for that song is greater than that generated by a thousand windmills.
yes that one could be filed under enhanced interrogation...
| 24 |
avanti Sat, May 8, 2010 1:58:51pm |
re: #20 recusancy
And that one even looks kinda cool.
Might be cool for my garage, just to charge a bank of car batteries that I could use with a inverter when the power goes out. It's free energy.
| 25 |
really grumpy big dog Johnson Sat, May 8, 2010 1:58:51pm |
re: #15 SanFranciscoZionist
Cheaper than solar panels, looks like.
The cost of the wind turbine is just the tip of the iceberg.
| 26 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, May 8, 2010 1:59:17pm |
re: #21 wrenchwench
The power of my hate for that song is greater than that generated by a thousand windmills.
| 27 |
Political Atheist Sat, May 8, 2010 1:59:23pm |
re: #10 Cato the Elder
I'm sure you are right, that will be an additional problem. Of course every alternative energy tech has it's environmental opponents, willing to use EIR's to kill good projects.
| 28 |
Political Atheist Sat, May 8, 2010 2:00:28pm |
Check this out, Solar roof tiles.
[Link: www.premierpower.com...]
| 30 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, May 8, 2010 2:02:11pm |
| 31 |
allegro Sat, May 8, 2010 2:02:48pm |
re: #28 Rightwingconspirator
Those are very cool. If only they had a design that would work on the roof of my motorhome, I'd be right there.
| 32 |
lostlakehiker Sat, May 8, 2010 2:02:56pm |
Woohoo. Tipping point. Wind energy has become competitive with conventional sources. This is big.
Watch for the industry to grow like crazy over the next decade or two, until there's wind installations everywhere there's serious, steady wind.
The high plains of Wyoming and Colorado may supplant the coal mines of Wyoming as one of our big energy resources.
| 33 |
brookly red Sat, May 8, 2010 2:03:03pm |
re: #29 drbuhd
Can't view this video from Germany :-(
I am will to bet it can't be seen in Saudi Arabia either...
but for different reasons of course.
| 34 |
recusancy Sat, May 8, 2010 2:03:04pm |
re: #25 really grumpy big dog Johnson
The cost of the wind turbine is just the tip of the iceberg.
Not really. Batteries and converters are pretty much the only other things you need and they are relatively inexpensive.
| 35 |
wrenchwench Sat, May 8, 2010 2:04:29pm |
re: #26 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
[Video]
That one's OK. This one's OK.
But that one with "wings" in it? Don't go there....
| 36 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, May 8, 2010 2:04:46pm |
I personally think wind farms are cool looking.
If they could make them look like pinwheels? Like propeller beanies, cooler.
| 37 |
freetoken Sat, May 8, 2010 2:05:50pm |
re: #36 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
If they could make them look like pinwheels? Like propeller beanies, cooler.
Hmmmm... do you think the painting of windmills might become an art?
| 38 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, May 8, 2010 2:06:50pm |
Crap. That thang in the Gulf ain't working.
WIND HERE! WIND NOW!
NUCLEAR!
BIG FUCKING RUBBER BANDS!
Something other than oil! Please?!
| 39 |
brookly red Sat, May 8, 2010 2:07:30pm |
re: #37 freetoken
Hmmm... do you think the painting of windmills might become an art?
if tree warping is considered art wtf not?
| 41 |
freetoken Sat, May 8, 2010 2:08:19pm |
| 42 |
lostlakehiker Sat, May 8, 2010 2:08:46pm |
re: #13 really grumpy big dog Johnson
Are any downsides to wind energy, other than the killing of birds and possible noise for those in the general vicinity? (besides payback time - if ever - for some of us)
The law of conservation of energy suggests that if the energy is stored for our use, then whatever it might have been doing otherwise must be impacted.
I don't guess anyone who care to guess what the potential issues might be? You never know, a lack of knowledge can be a dangerous thing...
By intercepting all the wind and converting it to electricity, we will prevent the exchange of northern and southern air. Arctic air will be trapped in the North. The North pole will be covered with ice, even in summer. Ice caps will form over Greenland. And Baffin island. And Alaska. And Canada. And Minnesota. And Pennsylvania.
Meanwhile, it will be hot in Death Valley. The place will become literally unlivable. Also Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona, Texas, Oklahoma, and Arkansas.
The downside is just unbelievable.
/no really, unbelievable is the right word here. Don't believe a word of it.
| 43 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, May 8, 2010 2:09:10pm |
re: #37 freetoken
As long as "McDonalds" ain't painted on them.
| 44 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, May 8, 2010 2:09:53pm |
| 45 |
Varek Raith Sat, May 8, 2010 2:10:55pm |
| 46 |
brookly red Sat, May 8, 2010 2:11:51pm |
re: #43 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
As long as "McDonalds" ain't painted on them.
you know, if a fast food joint generated all it's own power a lot of people (not I) would line up for "green burgers"... it is bound to happen.
| 47 |
wrenchwench Sat, May 8, 2010 2:15:29pm |
Geez, I'm surprised we have any birds left. Keep your cats inside, people!
| 48 |
allegro Sat, May 8, 2010 2:15:44pm |
re: #38 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
That is very disappointing news.
| 49 |
lostlakehiker Sat, May 8, 2010 2:16:41pm |
re: #46 brookly red
you know, if a fast food joint generated all it's own power a lot of people (not I) would line up for "green burgers"... it is bound to happen.
If you simply wait long enough to cook it, past the expiration date...
just sayin. Not everything that's green is good.
| 50 |
reine.de.tout Sat, May 8, 2010 2:19:25pm |
First attempt to use containment dome doesn't work.
In that story, this is being reported as the cause of the blowout.
The blowout was triggered by a bubble of methane gas that escaped from the well and shot up the drill column, expanding quickly as it burst through several seals and barriers before exploding, according to interviews with rig workers conducted during BP's internal investigation.
Seems to me if it was a bubble of methane, they would not have also had oil gushing out at the same time onto the rig during the event.
Austin Blue??? Can you weigh in?
| 51 |
brookly red Sat, May 8, 2010 2:19:32pm |
re: #49 lostlakehiker
If you simply wait long enough to cook it, past the expiration date...
just sayin. Not everything that's green is good.
I can think of a long list of things that should never be green...
number one has got to be lipstick :)
| 52 |
Cheechako Sat, May 8, 2010 2:19:34pm |
re: #32 lostlakehiker
The high plains of Wyoming and Colorado may supplant the coal mines of Wyoming as one of our big energy resources.
It's already happening. There's a large wind farm just south of Cheyenne, Wyoming, east of I-25. There's another very large wind farm in Arlington, Wyoming alongside I-80. That's about 60 miles west of Laramie, Wyoming
| 54 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 8, 2010 2:21:28pm |
re: #49 lostlakehiker
If you simply wait long enough to cook it, past the expiration date...
just sayin. Not everything that's green is good.
"Red meat is not bad for you. Green meat, now that's bad for you."
| 55 |
brookly red Sat, May 8, 2010 2:22:07pm |
re: #54 SanFranciscoZionist
"Red meat is not bad for you. Green meat, now that's bad for you."
frog legs?
| 56 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, May 8, 2010 2:22:33pm |
re: #53 reine.de.tout
How's that OT? We're talking about energy. This problem is one of the byproducts of our current source.
Y'all are in our prayers down there.
| 57 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, May 8, 2010 2:23:00pm |
| 58 |
allegro Sat, May 8, 2010 2:23:53pm |
| 59 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 8, 2010 2:24:24pm |
re: #50 reine.de.tout
First attempt to use containment dome doesn't work.
In that story, this is being reported as the cause of the blowout.
Seems to me if it was a bubble of methane, they would not have also had oil gushing out at the same time onto the rig during the event.Austin Blue??? Can you weigh in?
Damn. I was hoping this was going to get us somewhere. Sounds like they're going to try it again.
| 60 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 8, 2010 2:24:50pm |
re: #51 brookly red
I can think of a long list of things that should never be green...
number one has got to be lipstick :)
What if you're an Orion slave girl?
| 61 |
brookly red Sat, May 8, 2010 2:27:17pm |
re: #58 allegro
Excellent for the frog wheelchair industry, however.
many Chinese recipes use the whole frog...
[Link: www.flavorandfortune.com...]
| 62 |
brookly red Sat, May 8, 2010 2:29:39pm |
re: #60 SanFranciscoZionist
What if you're an Orion slave girl?
/what you do in the privacy of your home is your business...
| 63 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, May 8, 2010 2:30:03pm |
re: #61 brookly red
Honestly, I have to admit it. Humans are very good at finding uses for an entire slaughtered animal. That is actually a good thing.
Unless you're an elephant and they use one of your legs for an umbrella stand.
The Far Side had a strip on that.
| 64 |
wrenchwench Sat, May 8, 2010 2:31:34pm |
We are swimming in energy. We are made of energy.
Nice.
| 65 |
brookly red Sat, May 8, 2010 2:34:59pm |
re: #63 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Honestly, I have to admit it. Humans are very good at finding uses for an entire slaughtered animal. That is actually a good thing.
Unless you're an elephant and they use one of your legs for an umbrella stand.
The Far Side had a strip on that.
my sister likes to e-mail me far side cartoons. that in it self is ok, then factor in that she is a shrink... i am concerned.
| 66 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, May 8, 2010 2:35:15pm |
Speaking of natural energy... If lightening struck and fried Fred Phelps, I wouldn't mind.
| 67 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, May 8, 2010 2:36:21pm |
re: #65 brookly red
I just remembered the elephant, on the payphone, leaning against a crutch, leg bandaged below the knee... caption says,
"They made it into a what?!?!"
| 68 |
lostlakehiker Sat, May 8, 2010 2:36:51pm |
re: #47 wrenchwench
Geez, I'm surprised we have any birds left. Keep your cats inside, people!
Not to worry. Nature has its balance. Cats may be natural athletes, but birds come through in the clutch.
| 69 |
Stanghazi Sat, May 8, 2010 2:37:13pm |
| 70 |
SanFranciscoZionist Sat, May 8, 2010 2:37:57pm |
re: #63 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Honestly, I have to admit it. Humans are very good at finding uses for an entire slaughtered animal. That is actually a good thing.
Unless you're an elephant and they use one of your legs for an umbrella stand.
The Far Side had a strip on that.
The angry peg-legged elephant?
| 71 |
brookly red Sat, May 8, 2010 2:38:03pm |
re: #67 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I just remembered the elephant, on the payphone, leaning against a crutch, leg bandaged below the knee... caption says,
"They made it into a what?!?!"
I remember the Thai elephant that stepped on a landmine and was given an artificial leg...
| 72 |
brookly red Sat, May 8, 2010 2:40:07pm |
| 73 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, May 8, 2010 2:43:15pm |
Gotta run back to work.
Roanoke VA? They're thinking of building a wind farm up on Poor Mountain, between Roanoke and Blacksburg.
The mountaintop is an eyesore already, bunch of big radio towers...
No one is fighting it, that I've seen.
Yay.
Bye.
| 74 |
lostlakehiker Sat, May 8, 2010 2:45:26pm |
re: #52 Cheechako
It's already happening. There's a large wind farm just south of Cheyenne, Wyoming, east of I-25. There's another very large wind farm in Arlington, Wyoming alongside I-80. That's about 60 miles west of Laramie, Wyoming
Also a couple of big installations in the Comanche National Grasslands, along about the stretch of US 287 between Springfield and Lamar, CO.
| 75 |
allegro Sat, May 8, 2010 2:46:01pm |
re: #71 brookly red
I remember the Thai elephant that stepped on a landmine and was given an artificial leg...
Makes a lot more sense than prosthetic balls for dogs.
| 76 |
brookly red Sat, May 8, 2010 2:49:39pm |
re: #75 allegro
Makes a lot more sense than prosthetic balls for dogs.
I feel sorry for the poor bastard that has quality control specialist for the Acme Prosthetic Dog Balls company on his resume...
| 77 |
Cheechako Sat, May 8, 2010 2:50:01pm |
re: #74 lostlakehiker
Also a couple of big installations in the Comanche National Grasslands, along about the stretch of US 287 between Springfield and Lamar, CO.
It's almost hypnotic when you drive past these large windmills. For some reason your eyes just want to stare at the blades as they slowly rotate.
I wonder how many accidents they've caused.
| 78 |
Varek Raith Sat, May 8, 2010 2:50:05pm |
re: #73 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Gotta run back to work.
Roanoke VA? They're thinking of building a wind farm up on Poor Mountain, between Roanoke and Blacksburg.
The mountaintop is an eyesore already, bunch of big radio towers...
No one is fighting it, that I've seen.
Yay.
Bye.
The windmills will improve the view. As it is, it's fugly.
:)
| 79 |
reine.de.tout Sat, May 8, 2010 2:51:14pm |
re: #59 SanFranciscoZionist
Damn. I was hoping this was going to get us somewhere. Sounds like they're going to try it again.
Yeah, I think they'll make some adjustments and try again.
| 80 |
reine.de.tout Sat, May 8, 2010 2:51:59pm |
| 81 |
ryannon Sat, May 8, 2010 2:52:09pm |
re: #12 allegro
While I agree with your NIMBY assessment, it isn't hippies who are doing the objecting.
At LGF, hippies have long been the new (place racial or religious minority here).
But Cato is to be commended for not saying 'Dirty Hippies.'
| 82 |
brookly red Sat, May 8, 2010 2:52:51pm |
/I can just see how in the not so distant future Al Gore jr. will be shaming us for being 4% of the world's population and using 25% of the wind....
| 83 |
ryannon Sat, May 8, 2010 2:54:48pm |
re: #25 really grumpy big dog Johnson
The cost of the wind turbine is just the tip of the iceberg.
No one talks about the damage we're doing to the wind for future generations.
| 84 |
ryannon Sat, May 8, 2010 2:57:27pm |
re: #38 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Crap. That thang in the Gulf ain't working.
WIND HERE! WIND NOW!
NUCLEAR!
BIG FUCKING RUBBER BANDS!
Something other than oil! Please?!
Fucking magnets.
Nature's mysterious energy source.
| 85 |
brookly red Sat, May 8, 2010 3:00:33pm |
Mojique buys his equipment in the market place
Mojique plants devices through the free trade zone
He feels the wind is lifting up his people
He calls the wind to guide him on his mission
He knows his friend the wind is always standing...by.
| 86 |
wrenchwench Sat, May 8, 2010 3:05:02pm |
re: #84 ryannon
Fucking magnets.
Nature's mysterious energy source.
Speaking of f'n magnets, I hope Kragar is feeling better. When last seen here:
#20 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir) :: Thu, May 6, 2010 at 2:49:19 pm
Eh, going back to bed, started feeling sick last night and its hit me hard, can't even talk.#202 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir) :: Thu, May 6, 2010 at 5:31:33 pm
Man, my "little nap" turned into 3 hours. Being sick sucks#206 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir) :: Thu, May 6, 2010 at 5:34:50 pm
I miss anything good today?
| 87 |
ryannon Sat, May 8, 2010 3:06:34pm |
re: #85 brookly red
Mojique buys his equipment in the market place
Mojique plants devices through the free trade zone
He feels the wind is lifting up his people
He calls the wind to guide him on his mission
He knows his friend the wind is always standing...by.
Levon wears his war wound like a crown
He calls his child Jesus
`Cause he likes the name
And he sends him to the finest school in town
Levon, Levon likes his money
He makes a lot they say
Spends his days counting
In a garage by the motorway
He was born a pauper to a pawn on a Christmas day
When the New York Times said God is dead
And the war's begun
Alvin Tostig has a son today
And he shall be Levon
And he shall be a good man
And he shall be Levon
In tradition with the family plan
And he shall be Levon
And he shall be a good man
He shall be Levon
Levon sells cartoon balloons in town
His family business thrives
Jesus blows up balloons all day
Sits on the porch swing watching them fly
And Jesus, he wants to go to Venus
Leaving Levon far behind
Take a balloon and go sailing
While Levon, Levon slowly dies
He was born a pauper to a pawn on a Christmas day
When the New York Times said God is dead
And the war's begun
Alvin Tostig has a son today
And he shall be Levon
And he shall be a good man
And he shall be Levon
In tradition with the family plan
And he shall be Levon
And he shall be a good man
He shall be Levon
| 88 |
ryannon Sat, May 8, 2010 3:08:07pm |
re: #86 wrenchwench
Sending positive magnetic energy to Kragar through the ether right now.
| 89 |
Lawrior Sat, May 8, 2010 3:10:43pm |
The 1-2% downtime figure is misleading, as that is only the amount of time that they are operational. It does not mean that they are producing 98-99% of the time, only that they are capable of producing power. Actual production is a different story, as turbines produce at most 40% of the time.
As for cheaper power, the IEA's recent report found that wind power is significantly more expensive than nuclear, which is the cheapest source of power. The report uses a method that takes into account all factors in the costs of production of power. It is important to note that these costs only reflect power-generation costs, and not transmission costs. Transmission costs (e.g. construction of transmission lines) will be higher for wind power because wind farms are typically located much farther away than other forms of power from urban areas. Also, the IEA did not include the costs of having backup sources of power for when there is no wind.
On relative costs, from the executive summary of the report:
Nuclear Power
The total levelised investment costs calculated in the study include refurbishment and decommissioning costs and interest during construction. The total expense period ranges from five years in three countries to ten years in one country. In nearly all countries 90% or more of the expenses are incurred within five years or less.At a 5% discount rate, the levelised costs of nuclear electricity generation ranges between 21 and 31 USD/MWh except in two cases. Investment costs represent the largest share of total levelised costs, around 50% on average, while O&M costs represent around 30% and fuel cycle costs around 20%.
At a 10% discount rate, the levelised costs of nuclear electricity generation are in the range between 30 and 50 USD/MWh except in two cases. The share of investment in total levelised generation cost is around 70% while the other cost elements, O&M and fuel cycle, represent in average 20% and 10%
respectively.
Wind Power
For intermittent renewable sources such as wind, the availability/capacity of the plant is a driving factor for levelised cost of generating electricity. The reported availability/capacity factors of wind power plants range between 17 and 38% for onshore plants, and between 40 and 45% for offshore plants except in one case.At a 5% discount rate, levelised costs for wind power plants considered in the study range between 35 and 95 USD/MWh, but for a large number of plants the costs are below 60 USD/MWh. The share of O&M in total costs ranges between 13% and nearly 40% in one case.
At a 10% discount rate, the levelised costs of wind generated electricity range between 45 and more than 140 USD/MWh.
| 90 |
Gus Sat, May 8, 2010 3:18:33pm |
re: #89 Lawrior
From Sourcewatch:
International Energy Agency: Allegations of pro-oil and nuclear power bias
The IEA has systematically underestimated the potential of renewable energy sources like wind and solar, "because of its ties to the oil, gas and nuclear sectors," Energy Watch, a group of scientists and politicians, charged in a January 2009 report (pdf). Swiss parliamentarian and Energy Watch member Rudolf Rechsteiner said that IEA was "delaying the change to a renewable world. They continue touting nuclear and carbon-capture-and-storage, classical central solutions, instead of a more neutral approach, which would favour new solutions."
The Energy Watch report documented that IEA has dramatically underestimated wind power capacity over the past decade. IEA's 2008 World Energy Outlook "predicts a fivefold increase in wind energy from 2006-2015, but then assumes a rapid slowdown" without explaining why "the wind sector should suffer such a crisis by 2015 and after." IEA, which refused to comment on the report, draws "senior staff from the fossil-fuel industry."
From Wiki:
The International Energy Agency is a Paris-based autonomous intergovernmental organization established in the framework of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) in 1974 in the wake of the 1973 oil crisis. The IEA was initially dedicated to responding to physical disruptions in the supply of oil, as well as serving as an information source on statistics about the international oil market and other energy sectors.
| 91 |
Gus Sat, May 8, 2010 3:21:38pm |
re: #90 Gus 802
Updated information:
From the International Energy Agency:
Additionally to its role within the portfolio of energy technologies to mitigate energy-related greenhouse gas emissions, wind power provides additional benefits such as pollution reduction, enhanced security of energy supply and economic growth. The objective of the Wind Roadmap is to identify actions to encourage the rapid, enhanced research, design, development and deployment on wind power, both on land and offshore.
The roadmap has been compiled with inputs from a wide range of stakeholders in the wind industry and the wider power sector, power system operators, research and development (R&D) institutions, finance, and government institutions. Two workshops were held to identify technological and deployment issues.
Key messages (click here for a summary)
* The Wind Roadmap targets 12% of global electricity from wind power by 2050
* Achieving these targets will require the investment of some USD 3.2 trillion. 47 GW would need to be installed on average every year for the next 40 years – amounting to a 75% increase on annual investment to USD 81 billion
* From 2030, non-OECD economies, including in particular China, Latin America and India, will produce some 17% of global wind energy, rising to 57% in 2050
* Onshore wind technology is proven. Costs per MWh range from USD 70 – 130. Wind power can be competitive where the resource is strong and when the cost of carbon is reflected in markets
* Costs are expected to decrease further as a result of technology development, deployment and economies of scale – by 23% by 2050. Transitional support is needed to encourage deployment until full competition is achieved
* To achieve high penetrations of wind power, the flexibility of power systems and the markets they support must be enhanced and, eventually, increased. Flexibility is a function of access to flexible generation, storage, and demand response, and is greatly enhanced by larger, faster power markets, smart grid technology, and the use of forecast models in system schedulingKey actions in the next ten years include:
* Set long-term targets (where not extant), supported by predictable market-based mechanisms; set mechanisms for appropriate carbon pricing
* Plan new transmission to harvest resource-rich areas, and interconnect power systems; appoint lead-agencies to coordinate planning and permitting; set incentives to build transmission; and assess power system flexibility
* Raise public awareness of the full benefits of wind power (including strategic CO2 emissions reductions, security of supply and economic growth), and of the accompanying need for additional transmission, to increase social acceptance
| 92 |
compound idaho Sat, May 8, 2010 3:25:06pm |
re: #52 Cheechako
It's already happening. There's a large wind farm just south of Cheyenne, Wyoming, east of I-25. There's another very large wind farm in Arlington, Wyoming alongside I-80. That's about 60 miles west of Laramie, Wyoming
Drove past both of those sites twice last fall. All at a stand still.
Don't get me wrong. Lets use wind where we can. But as a reliable energy source, nope!
| 93 |
Lawrior Sat, May 8, 2010 3:26:06pm |
| 94 |
ryannon Sat, May 8, 2010 3:26:38pm |
re: #89 Lawrior
Those stats sound like total horse-radish to me.
Simply put, the cost of nuclear generated electricity is practically never-ending.
| 95 |
Gus Sat, May 8, 2010 3:27:21pm |
| 96 |
Lawrior Sat, May 8, 2010 3:31:09pm |
re: #95 Gus 802
One could say the same about me. I'm not opposed to it at all. It is necessary to point out that it is not cheaper than nuclear as the video suggests. The numbers cited from #91 show 70-130 USD/MWh for onshore wind power. It is also important to note that we cannot rely upon wind alone because of its transitory generation needs.
re: #94 ryannon
Can you cite to anything that supports your conclusion?
| 98 |
Gus Sat, May 8, 2010 3:35:45pm |
re: #96 Lawrior
One could say the same about me. I'm not opposed to it at all. It is necessary to point out that it is not cheaper than nuclear as the video suggests. The numbers cited from #91 show 70-130 USD/MWh for onshore wind power. It is also important to note that we cannot rely upon wind alone because of its transitory generation needs.
re: #94 ryannon
Can you cite to anything that supports your conclusion?
I'm not sure if the video was suggesting we rely on wind alone. If we go back to the IEA they have a roadmap indicating 13 percent of all electrical generation being produced by wind, worldwide, by 2050. Realistically I couldn't see relying on wind alone and it would have to include nuclear and other sources of power. Transitional sources would also have to remain in place such as coal. So no I would not call it a smoking gun. Bottom line of course is that we have to move ahead and "just do it" as they say.
| 100 |
ryannon Sat, May 8, 2010 3:38:08pm |
re: #96 Lawrior
One could say the same about me. I'm not opposed to it at all. It is necessary to point out that it is not cheaper than nuclear as the video suggests. The numbers cited from #91 show 70-130 USD/MWh for onshore wind power. It is also important to note that we cannot rely upon wind alone because of its transitory generation needs.
re: #94 ryannon
Can you cite to anything that supports your conclusion?
Nothing in particular.
But I live in the world's most nuclear-powered country (France) and I've been closely following the debates over the last twenty or so years. One thing is certain: the cost to consumers for nuclear-generated electricity in France would be prohibitive were it not for government subventions.
Here's a fairly unbiased report of the current situation, with both pros and cons:
[Link: www.usnews.com...]
| 101 |
ryannon Sat, May 8, 2010 3:48:04pm |
And for the real debate, read the comments after the article.
| 102 |
Gus Sat, May 8, 2010 3:51:00pm |
re: #100 ryannon
Nothing in particular.
But I live in the world's most nuclear-powered country (France) and I've been closely following the debates over the last twenty or so years. One thing is certain: the cost to consumers for nuclear-generated electricity in France would be prohibitive were it not for government subventions.
Here's a fairly unbiased report of the current situation, with both pros and cons:
[Link: www.usnews.com...]
This is an interesting bit of information from that article:
But it is in the area of nuclear waste treatment that Paris and Washington disagree most strongly. The French have been recycling nuclear waste for some 25 years, a process the United States strongly opposes because it requires separating uranium from plutonium, which in theory could then be diverted to the production of nuclear weapons. The French argue that recycling waste material is the best way to deal with the waste problem and to ensure the long-term availability of uranium. "In France, we have confidence in the efficiency of the safety measures and in being able to control nuclear proliferation," Carré says.
| 103 |
Lawrior Sat, May 8, 2010 3:55:44pm |
re: #102 Gus 802
True. And after they recycle the nuclear waste, what is left over and cannot be used again is stored in one central location. Yes, it is a big room that will kill you if you go in, but it is orders of magnitude smaller than the proposed site at Yucca Mountain.
Right now, US nuclear plants are not allowed to recycle their spent rods, and must store them on site. Upgrading the plants to use this requires permits that are unlikely to be issued, so we are falling behind in this area while France leads the world. They also create enough nuclear power that they sell power to their neighbors.
| 104 |
Gus Sat, May 8, 2010 3:58:22pm |
re: #103 Lawrior
True. And after they recycle the nuclear waste, what is left over and cannot be used again is stored in one central location. Yes, it is a big room that will kill you if you go in, but it is orders of magnitude smaller than the proposed site at Yucca Mountain.
Right now, US nuclear plants are not allowed to recycle their spent rods, and must store them on site. Upgrading the plants to use this requires permits that are unlikely to be issued, so we are falling behind in this area while France leads the world. They also create enough nuclear power that they sell power to their neighbors.
It's too bad because recycling of nuclear waste would reduce a part of the biggest stumbling block we have in the states: long term storage.
| 105 |
ryannon Sat, May 8, 2010 4:06:52pm |
Believe it or not, France regularly imports electricity from Germany and other EU countries.
As for their exemplary reprocessing methods, here's a point of view from the comments section of the article:
The meaning of "recycling" and "success"
It's easy to pass off the French nuclear system as a "success" by stating there is 80% reliance on nuclear for electricity without describing either the financial or environmental costs of such heavy dependence. It's equally easy to say that France "recycles" its radioactive waste - leaving a pleasant impression - without describing what "reprocessing," the real name of the process, means. In France, it means pumping 100 million gallons of liquid radioactive waste into the sea every year - wastes that have been detected as far as the Arctic Circle. It means releasing radioactive gases like krypton-85 into the air - found all over the globe. It means two medical studies finding leukemia clusters along the coast near the La Hague reprocessing plant. It means an 80-ton surplus pile of plutonium with nowhere to go sitting in thousands of containers on site. It means large amounts of uranium too contaminated to "recycle."
The French "success" is compounded by the presence of 210 abandoned uranium mines around the country (yes France must import all its uranium) which have been found to be highly radioactive still, with uranium tailings used in public parking lots, buildings and school playgrounds.
Annual polls show each year more French want renewables than nuclear power. There is a network of more than 852 anti-nuclear groups in France. And yes. it's absolutely true that the French nuclear system is undemocratic and highly secret.
True of most U.S. reporting on this issue, the nuclear party line was swallowed, hook line and sinker by this reporter without any apparent effort at verification.
| 106 |
Judge Bean Sat, May 8, 2010 5:21:33pm |
I hate to burst everyone's bubble about wind, but it is a basic meteorlogical fact that the wind only blows 30% of the time on average in the US. What do you think is making your electricity when you drive by a wind farm and the blades are not turning? The simple fact is that power plants have to be running in the background when you use wind power because you cannot have a power interruption when the wind stops blowing. A coal, natural gas or nuclear plant is always running because you cannot rely on the wind. You cannot build a battery big enough to power a city if the wind stops. No matter how many wind farms you have, you will still have to have traditional power plants - it is a basic fact of physics. Further, wind turbines have been shown to be prone to break down. Ed Wallace at his Inside Automotive web site has chronicled these facts over and over.
| 107 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, May 8, 2010 6:39:41pm |
re: #106 Judge Bean
You aren't bursting any bubbles because that number, if true, would be an average over the entire US.
I know for a fact that there are numerous places where there are strong winds quite frequently and I have seen calculations that a county sized patch of land in the right place - if populated by wind farms, could power the entire US.
The issue is that yes the wind is intermittent so it would be a very good idea to not put all of the farms in one patch, and even more important, it is necessary to build a smart grid to carry that power across larger distances. However, this is not impossible to do and there is no reason we could not get a substantial amount of our power from wind in the future.
A home windmill is another thing that if everyone had one - with proper battery storage for when the wind was not blowing, would make a dramatic impact. In fact, a home in the right area with a combination of solar panels, wind and the right battery technology could easily be completely off grid.
However that is small scale. Full scale windfarms however actually have the power to supplement major cites. This is another one of those things that we should be rapidly deploying.
In the near future, if we did things properly, densely packed cites that run major city wide utilities and services would be primarily supplied by modern generation nuclear reactors. As you moved out into the suburbs, windfarms and solar become very attractive. Fossil fuel cars would be phased out and replaced by electric vehicles. The cities would need to develop plug in infrastructure for parked vehicles. Your home, supplemented by your own solar or wind would charge up your vehicle.
Now imagine if you will how much money you would save if you did not have to pay for gasoline?
Imagine how much money you would save if you did not have to pay for heating oil because you had an electric system in your home, that was supplemented by your own collection of energy.
Sure the capital investment up front might seem high, however, the switchover would quickly pay for itself and continue reaping profits - and then huge amounts of money could be used for other things than propping up hostile nations, or destroying our environment.
It is a win, win, win all the way around. It would be a win even if AGW were not an issue from both an economic and a security standpoint. It would be a win from a diplomatic standpoint because the real and only way to tell people like Saudi Arabia to join the civilized world is to take away their leverage.
And yet, because oil companies and coal companies have politicians on both sides of the aisle (but particularly GOP) completely bought and paid for, we don't do it.
| 108 |
Mad Prophet Ludwig Sat, May 8, 2010 7:01:38pm |
Because I will be very bust and not able to post all night, I wish to give you a moment of what I see as nearly perfect beauty.
I really mean that. This to me is one of those Platonic places where truth and beauty unify and show us that there are still true and pristine forms in the world. That said, abstract geometry may not be for all of you.
The Moebius Transformation, forms the backbone of many parts of advanced mathematics. It is relevant to General Relativity and Modular Forms. If you know Cabballah, the real stuff, there is a metaphor in it (when taken into conjunction with the view of a Riemann Sphere) of how to answer questions of how God can be everywhere and nowhere, infinite and one. In the video, if you with to be theological consider God to be the blue dot.
Two minutes of your lives. Give it a look.
| 109 |
really grumpy big dog Johnson Sat, May 8, 2010 7:20:31pm |
re: #34 recusancy
Not really. Batteries and converters are pretty much the only other things you need and they are relatively inexpensive.
I feel like I've been attacked by amateur hour. The wind generator requires a tower to be constructed of not less than 26 feet. Obviously, higher reaches better wind. At a sustained wind of 20 mph, a fraction of the rated maximum output is reached. Bear in mind, the shipping weight of this thing is 300 pounds. You'll have to have a tower that can be certified not to collapse at the maximum potential wind speed for your area.
How many people can build a suitable tower on their property? You'll either need a whole lot of long-life batteries to store the energy during those times when it's plentiful, or else you'll have to be able to put it on the grid. That will require some rather expensive equipment and labor in order to hook the machine to the electrical grid. And then there's the cost of replacement batteries, maintenance, and more.
People who haven't looked at the situation closely aren't going to believe how much it truly costs. That generator is probably a 10K plus project, not counting depreciation and maintenance costs. That's a lot of electricity, a whole lot.
It's better to join a coop of people who invest in ownership of a wind farm. All of the costs are reduced by scale, you don't have to make your system compatible with the grid, and everyone shares equally in the risks and costs of the system.
How much will it cost to insure your investment? A heck of a lot less of you go coop on your energy, rather than think that you'll ever come close to returning your costs if you go it alone.
But I get a lot of that around here lately. Simple answers suggesting that I'm a moron who hasn't a clue, like the response I received regarding the NAS letter and my question regarding it, or the one about the law of conservation of energy, which just seems so stupid to ask that no one even takes it seriously. It's easy to jump to all kinds of conclusions when you have friends who will be quite happy if your conclusion matches theirs.
I'm not that kind of guy, and no, I don't expect not to be ridiculed for contrarian views.
| 110 |
lostlakehiker Sun, May 9, 2010 8:39:04am |
re: #109 really grumpy big dog Johnson
I feel like I've been attacked by amateur hour. The wind generator requires a tower to be constructed of not less than 26 feet. Obviously, higher reaches better wind. At a sustained wind of 20 mph, a fraction of the rated maximum output is reached. Bear in mind, the shipping weight of this thing is 300 pounds. You'll have to have a tower that can be certified not to collapse at the maximum potential wind speed for your area.
How many people can build a suitable tower on their property? You'll either need a whole lot of long-life batteries to store the energy during those times when it's plentiful, or else you'll have to be able to put it on the grid. That will require some rather expensive equipment and labor in order to hook the machine to the electrical grid. And then there's the cost of replacement batteries, maintenance, and more.
People who haven't looked at the situation closely aren't going to believe how much it truly costs. That generator is probably a 10K plus project, not counting depreciation and maintenance costs. That's a lot of electricity, a whole lot.
It's better to join a coop of people who invest in ownership of a wind farm. All of the costs are reduced by scale, you don't have to make your system compatible with the grid, and everyone shares equally in the risks and costs of the system.
How much will it cost to insure your investment? A heck of a lot less of you go coop on your energy, rather than think that you'll ever come close to returning your costs if you go it alone.
But I get a lot of that around here lately. Simple answers suggesting that I'm a moron who hasn't a clue, like the response I received regarding the NAS letter and my question regarding it, or the one about the law of conservation of energy, which just seems so stupid to ask that no one even takes it seriously. It's easy to jump to all kinds of conclusions when you have friends who will be quite happy if your conclusion matches theirs.
I'm not that kind of guy, and no, I don't expect not to be ridiculed for contrarian views.
When you make sense, your ideas and your person win respect. When you don't, your person remains respected but the wrongheaded idea gets no respect. That's life in a debating club. You're right about the difficulties that go with personal wind systems, but you're wrong about dangers from tapping wind power.
Of course the energy we extract from the wind is gone from the wind. The winds are marginally tamed. They don't carry heat (or cold) quite as far as they would otherwise. The effect of building a 100% airtight wind capture system globally might be pretty severe, and it might look a bit like the funny hazards I proposed. But a sober look at how big wind turbines are, and how big the rest of the sky is, should convince you that a lot of moving air will get past any system we can build. Global wind patterns won't be disrupted to any measurable extent.
Not building wind energy installations means burning coal instead, because if worry-warts can block wind energy, they can for sure block nuclear. And that coal goes straight to Coal dioxide when burned, and that really will affect global wind patterns. By warming the poles more than it warms the mid-latitudes, this extra CO2 will act to damp the whole wind thing. So when all is said and done and everything accounted for, building a massive wind energy system will result in more wind than not building it.
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