Swedish Cartoon Jihad Flares Up Again

Religion • Views: 4,700

Lars Vilks, the Swedish artist who drew a series of sketches showing Mohammed as a “roundabout dog,” is the target of a new round of attacks from Muslim fanatics, and today his home was vandalized.

It was the latest in a week of attacks on the 53-year-old cartoonist, who was assaulted Tuesday by a man while he lectured at a university and saw his Web site apparently attacked by hacker on Wednesday.

Police were alerted just before noon Saturday, as people passing by the artist’s house noted that several windows had been smashed. When officers arrived, they discovered plastic bottles filled with gasoline and fire damage on the surface of the building. Attackers are also suspected of having tried setting the inside of house on fire, but the flames are thought to have fizzled out. …

Vilks, who often jokes about the threats he has received since his 2007 sketch of Muhammad, including from al-Qaida, said the latest attack doesn’t raise his fears more than usual.

“I’m not really more afraid than what I think is realistic,” he told the Associated Press over the telephone.

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574 comments
1 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:18:14am
2 SpaceJesus  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:18:34am

just paint pictures of the qu’ran on your window panes next time. they won’t throw anything through them that way.

3 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:19:39am

The Enlightenment. Now with free speech. Hopefully still available all over the Western world.

4 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:19:55am

This is no different than Christians getting up in arms about “Piss Christ” and other pop art icon that deal with a Christian theme.

5 Racer X  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:20:16am

Lighten up, Francis.

6 Crimsonfisted  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:21:17am

I would move in with Ayaan Hirsi Ali if I were him. She has full time protection. And keeps speaking out.

7 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:21:49am

re: #4 Walter L. Newton

This is no different than Christians getting up in arms about “Piss Christ” and other pop art icon that deal with a Christian theme.

How many people were killed over Piss Christ?

8 sattv4u2  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:22:25am

Okay ,, I know what the problem is. nobody ever gave the Jihadists one of THESE

dictionary.reference.com

9 Joo-LiZ  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:23:21am

re: #4 Walter L. Newton

This is no different than Christians getting up in arms about “Piss Christ” and other pop art icon that deal with a Christian theme.

No Different?

I’m not really familiar with the whole “Piss Christ” thing, but there were Christians going after people the same way Muslim Fanatics are going after Lars Vilks?

10 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:23:30am

re: #7 researchok

How many people were killed over Piss Christ?

It’s only a matter of time… remember the Crusades?

11 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:23:46am

re: #7 researchok

How many people were killed over Piss Christ?

See now, researchok, you will find me agreeing with you. Muslim extremism is much more violent, and much more prevalent in the Muslim religion than any other religion.

Clearly, the Muslim faith has serious problems.

12 Joo-LiZ  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:24:20am

re: #7 researchok

Beat me to it.

13 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:24:26am

Fuck kooks. All of them.

14 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:24:56am

Right wing humor, posted today on Twitter and retweeted at least four times so far:

@EricCWhite: @chuck_dizzle if evolution is real, why does Charles Johnson still have a blog?

He devolved. Thus proving the theory. RT @EricCWhite: @chuck_dizzle if evolution is real, why does Charles Johnson still have a blog?

Hurr hurr hurr!

15 SpaceJesus  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:24:57am

re: #11 BryanS


islam has over 1 billion followers.


clearly, a small segment of islam has some serious problems

16 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:24:57am

re: #9 Joo-LiZ

No Different?

I’m not really familiar with the whole “Piss Christ” thing, but there were Christians going after people the same way Muslim Fanatics are going after Lars Vilks?

It’s only a matter of time… remember the Crusades?

17 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:25:25am

re: #9 Joo-LiZ

No Different?

I’m not really familiar with the whole “Piss Christ” thing, but there were Christians going after people the same way Muslim Fanatics are going after Lars Vilks?

were? as in, past tense, right? Much more common in say the 1700s than say 2000s?

18 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:25:26am

re: #10 Walter L. Newton

It’s only a matter of time… remember the Crusades?

Christians have evolved from a Middle Age mindset- unlike some other groups.

19 sattv4u2  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:25:45am

re: #10 Walter L. Newton

It’s only a matter of time… remember the Crusades?

Thats a hellavu stretch there, imho

AND ,,,, having to back back 10 CENTURIES to make a point about something that is currently transpiring!

20 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:26:05am

re: #18 researchok

Christians have evolved from a Middle Age mindset- unlike some other groups.

Really… trying to teach creationism in schools… yep, real enlightened bunch they are.

21 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:26:17am
22 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:26:17am

re: #14 Charles

Right wing humor, posted today on Twitter and retweeted at least four times so far:

Hurr hurr hurr!

There’s a revolution? I didn’t get the memo….Shit.

23 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:26:52am

re: #15 SpaceJesus

islam has over 1 billion followers.

clearly, a small segment of islam has some serious problems

Clearly. Now how many followers of all other faiths combined? What percentage of them are violent extremists compared to Muslim extremists?

24 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:27:26am

re: #10 Walter L. Newton

It’s only a matter of time… remember the Crusades?

In point of fact, it is more likely the events that lead up to the Crusades will repeat. Recall the Crusades were retaliatory.

25 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:27:37am

If you draw cartoons, I will cut your head off. Peace be upon you. Wait, what?
///

26 SpaceJesus  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:27:40am

re: #18 researchok

Christians have evolved from a Middle Age mindset


all of them?

27 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:27:50am
28 Locker  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:28:35am

re: #20 Walter L. Newton

Really… trying to teach creationism in schools… yep, real enlightened bunch they are.

Talk about moving the target.

29 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:28:36am
30 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:29:00am

re: #14 Charles

Right wing humor, posted today on Twitter and retweeted at least four times so far:

Hurr hurr hurr!

You have become an idiot magnet, Charles.

31 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:30:12am

re: #20 Walter L. Newton

Really… trying to teach creationism in schools… yep, real enlightened bunch they are.

I abhor creationism, That said, as far as I can tell, creationism does not call for holy wars or genocide.

32 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:30:54am

re: #21 MandyManners

Christians tried to burn down Maplethorpe’s house?

re: #27 MandyManners

Christians are lopping off people’s heads?

All you quite little lame comparisons mean nothing. We’ve seen that Christians are just as capable of using their religion for destruction. The Holocaust was the outcome of 2000 years of Christian anti-semitism that had built up for years in Western and Eastern Europe.

Same results… million of people dead because of a religious hatred… Christians to the Jews.

33 SpaceJesus  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:31:14am

re: #23 BryanS

Clearly. Now how many followers of all other faiths combined? What percentage of them are violent extremists compared to Muslim extremists?

they are likewise also a small percentage of the overall group

34 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:31:27am

re: #28 Locker

Talk about moving the target.

We’ve seen that Christians are just as capable of using their religion for destruction. The Holocaust was the outcome of 2000 years of Christian anti-semitism that had built up in Western and Eastern Europe.

35 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:32:06am

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

We’ve seen that Christians are just as capable of using their religion for destruction. The Holocaust was the outcome of 2000 years of Christian anti-semitism that had built up in Western and Eastern Europe.


I would question whether that was religious hatred or racial hatred.

36 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:32:41am

re: #31 researchok

I abhor creationism, That said, as far as I can tell, creationism does not call for holy wars or genocide.

You were talking about a middle age mindset, were you not? Creationism is not a middle aged mindset?

37 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:32:47am

re: #31 researchok

I abhor creationism, That said, as far as I can tell, creationism does not call for holy wars or genocide.

It does call for unquestioning faith—that’s pretty dangerous too, of you ask me. If that unquestioning faith says you should blow yourself up in service to god, well we see what happens when some people think their faith says that.

38 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:33:48am
39 Locker  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:33:48am

I’d love to get the LGF bookmarklet to appear on my right-click menu in Firefox. Anyone know of a hack/tweak for that? I’m thinking it’s doable as some of my other programs add themselves to the context menus but not sure how.

Thanks!

40 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:33:58am

re: #35 EmmmieG

I would question whether that was religious hatred or racial hatred.

Then you need to read up on the early church fathers, read up on Luther, read up on the Catholic church… you have a lot of reading to do. You think I’m just pulling this stuff out of my ass?

41 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:33:59am

re: #32 Walter L. Newton

All you quite little lame comparisons mean nothing. We’ve seen that Christians are just as capable of using their religion for destruction. The Holocaust was the outcome of 2000 years of Christian anti-semitism that had built up for years in Western and Eastern Europe.

Same results… million of people dead because of a religious hatred… Christians to the Jews.

Christians, like everyone else, can be flawed. Christianity did not author the Holocaust.

42 sattv4u2  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:35:27am

re: #35 EmmmieG

I would question whether that was religious hatred or racial hatred.

Hitler saw the “jews” as not a religious threat, but rather as the catalyst for the post WW1 economic and social ills plaguing Germany at the time. He saw it as the jewish bankers and businessmen as holding Aryans down

43 SpaceJesus  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:35:28am

re: #41 researchok

Christians, like everyone else, can be flawed. Christianity did not author the Holocaust.


but it was used as a justification for it

44 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:35:51am

re: #35 EmmmieG

I would question whether that was religious hatred or racial hatred.

Good point as there were a mix of racial and religious messages in drumming up hatred towards the Jews. I’d say it was an evil mixture of both.

45 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:35:54am

re: #40 Walter L. Newton

Then you need to read up on the early church fathers, read up on Luther, read up on the Catholic church… you have a lot of reading to do. You think I’m just pulling this stuff out of my ass?

Yes, you are.

Institutional Christianity, like all religions, have weak links. Over time, in a healthy culture, those links and weaknesses are replaced.

Islam has yet to undergo a fundamental shift in their beliefs.

46 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:36:18am

re: #36 Walter L. Newton

You were talking about a middle age mindset, were you not? Creationism is not a middle aged mindset?

Towards science, it most definitely is.

47 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:36:50am

re: #43 SpaceJesus

but it was used as a justification for it

To some extent, yes.

That said, did atheism author Stalin or Hitler?

48 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:36:54am

re: #41 researchok

Christians, like everyone else, can be flawed. Christianity did not author the Holocaust.

You need a little refresher course in 2000 years of Christian history. Christian anti-semitism was the foundation that enable people like Hitler to build a scapegoat fro his political aspirations. I’m sorry, go look up the roots of anti-semitism, read up a bit, stop fooling yourself, I’ve posted dozens of comments on this subject before, complete with undisputed references… sorry if it doesn’t meet your worldview, but it facts… period.

49 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:37:06am

re: #43 SpaceJesus

but it was used as a justification for it

By an insane man.

50 Locker  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:37:14am

re: #34 Walter L. Newton

We’ve seen that Christians are just as capable of using their religion for destruction. The Holocaust was the outcome of 2000 years of Christian anti-semitism that had built up in Western and Eastern Europe.

Yea yea yea but that’s not what you said…

re: #4 Walter L. Newton

This is no different than Christians getting up in arms about “Piss Christ” and other pop art icon that deal with a Christian theme.

So, you started with Piss Christ and moved the target. Thank you for playing.

51 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:38:30am

re: #50 Locker

So, you started with Piss Christ and moved the target. Thank you for playing.

And thank you for not being able to dispute anything I have said.

52 SpaceJesus  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:38:53am

re: #47 researchok

To some extent, yes.

That said, did atheism author Stalin or Hitler?


Hitler was Catholic and even created a national church for the 3rd Reich


Stalin was trained as a priest as a young man and simply replaced the Orthodox church with himself.

neither of these men said, “because of atheism, we will exterminate our enemies.”

53 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:39:09am

re: #40 Walter L. Newton

Then you need to read up on the early church fathers, read up on Luther, read up on the Catholic church… you have a lot of reading to do. You think I’m just pulling this stuff out of my ass?

No, I’m talking about the whole nationalism thing. That wasn’t about religion, it was about race.

Why else would Hitler have hated the Slavs and the Poles?

(I am not trying to diminish the role of religion in antisemitism, I just want racism to get its fair share of abuse.)

54 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:39:31am

Radical Islam will not go away in anyone’s time on this thread.

55 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:39:58am

re: #48 Walter L. Newton

You need a little refresher course in 2000 years of Christian history. Christian anti-semitism was the foundation that enable people like Hitler to build a scapegoat fro his political aspirations. I’m sorry, go look up the roots of anti-semitism, read up a bit, stop fooling yourself, I’ve posted dozens of comments on this subject before, complete with undisputed references… sorry if it doesn’t meet your worldview, but it facts… period.

Sorry, but if you want to rely on puddle deep thinking, we can extrapolate that atheism authored Stalin and Hitler. Ergo, atheism is evil.

And then of course, there is China and Mao’s atheism… we all know how that turned out.

Blanket statements on matters such as these do not indicate great critical thinking. “sorry if it doesn’t meet your worldview…..”

56 SpaceJesus  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:40:08am

re: #49 Cannadian Club Akbar

By an insane man.


an insane man who was followed by millions of german christians

57 sattv4u2  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:40:08am

re: #52 SpaceJesus

neither of these men said, “because of atheism, we will exterminate our enemies.”

Did they say “because of my love for Christ, I will exterminate our enemies.”
??

58 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:40:31am

re: #53 EmmmieG

No, I’m talking about the whole nationalism thing. That wasn’t about religion, it was about race.

Why else would Hitler have hated the Slavs and the Poles?

(I am not trying to diminish the role of religion in antisemitism, I just want racism to get its fair share of abuse.)

Hitler rode in on the back of anti-semitism for his nationalist endeavors.

59 Locker  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:40:42am

re: #51 Walter L. Newton

And thank you for not being able to dispute anything I have said.

I did dispute what you said, even though you continue to try to pretend otherwise. You said Christians reacted the same about Piss Christ as the folks in the subject of this post.

I dispute that and since you made the statement then YOU have to PROVE that Christians reacted the same about Piss Christ. Apparently you think referring to the Crusades is proof… it’s not. You are wrong. You lose. Get over it.

60 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:41:01am

re: #55 researchok

Sorry, but if you want to rely on puddle deep thinking, we can extrapolate that atheism authored Stalin and Hitler. Ergo, atheism is evil.

And then of course, there is China and Mao’s atheism… we all know how that turned out.

Blanket statements on matters such as these do not indicate great critical thinking. “sorry if it doesn’t meet your worldview…”

No, it indicates truth.

61 Joo-LiZ  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:41:20am

re: #14 Charles

I know you’ve been documenting it for a while, Charles, but it’s still depressing to see them mock evolution. They are so sure that it’s an anti-religious conspiracy.

62 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:41:38am

re: #52 SpaceJesus

Hitler was Catholic and even created a national church for the 3rd Reich

Stalin was trained as a priest as a young man and simply replaced the Orthodox church with himself.

neither of these men said, “because of atheism, we will exterminate our enemies.”

Window dressing. He was born Catholic and coerced (really coerced!) ministers into his “Church”.

63 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:41:52am

re: #59 Locker

I did dispute what you said, even though you continue to try to pretend otherwise. You said Christians reacted the same about Piss Christ as the folks in the subject of this post.

I dispute that and since you made the statement then YOU have to PROVE that Christians reacted the same about Piss Christ. Apparently you think referring to the Crusades is proof… it’s not. You are wrong. You lose. Get over it.

Mirror mirror on the wall…

64 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:42:06am

re: #47 researchok

To some extent, yes.

That said, did atheism author Stalin or Hitler?

Neither. First, Hitler wasn’t an atheist. Second, Stalin, though and atheist, didn’t justify his actions simply because he didn’t think god existed.

65 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:42:24am

re: #60 Walter L. Newton

No, it indicates truth.

Right, so atheism is as bad if not worse than religion…

66 SpaceJesus  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:42:27am

re: #57 sattv4u2

neither of these men said, “because of atheism, we will exterminate our enemies.”

Did they say “because of my love for Christ, I will exterminate our enemies.”
??


Actually Hitler compared his plans to exterminate the Jews with the passage in the bible of Jesus casting out the money lenders. So yes. He also made sure the German military had the phrase “Gott mit uns” (god with us) emblazoned on Nazi soldier belt buckles.

67 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:42:48am

Again, I offer no apologies for antisemitism in “the church.”

But the Lebensborn garbage was racial.

68 Locker  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:43:23am

re: #63 Walter L. Newton

Mirror mirror on the wall…

I’ll take that as a “You caught me and I can’t think of anything to do but sink into my Wicked Queen fantasy.”

69 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:44:42am

re: #65 researchok

Right, so atheism is as bad if not worse than religion…

I’m not going to argue with someone who doesn’t have a clue as to the foundations of what brought Hilter (and many others in Europe) to feel a need to cleanse Europe of it’s Jews… it was a anti-semitism that was fuel by Christianity from about 300 C.E. onwards.

70 Joo-LiZ  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:44:48am

re: #61 Joo-LiZ

I know you’ve been documenting it for a while, Charles, but it’s still depressing to see them mock evolution. They are so sure that it’s an anti-religious conspiracy.

and with that, I’m gonna go study some Biology.

71 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:44:53am

re: #64 BryanS

Neither. First, Hitler wasn’t an atheist. Second, Stalin, though and atheist, didn’t justify his actions simply because he didn’t think god existed.

Hitler was an Occultist- if for no other reason than to create a religion.

As for the atheists, I agree. My point was that you cannot throw the baby out with the bath water.

There are bad examples of religion and there are good examples. Same thing with atheism. There are moral atheists and there are immoral atheists.

The problem isn’t religion of atheism.

72 SpaceJesus  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:44:58am

re: #62 researchok

Window dressing. He was born Catholic and coerced (really coerced!) ministers into his “Church”.


Doesn’t matter. He never left the church, and church sided with him. If they had any real convictions in an afterlife and what is right and wrong, then they would have resisted him to the point of death. Also, both Hitler and Mussolini signed their first concordances with the Vatican itself. This wasn’t just individual ministers, this was the entire church.

73 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:45:13am

Charles:

If you weren’t affecting them and their grasp on power they wouldn’t be tweeting, Consider it a compliment.

74 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:45:49am

re: #67 EmmmieG

Again, I offer no apologies for antisemitism in “the church.”

But the Lebensborn garbage was racial.

You cannot separate racial and religious from the Jews.

75 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:46:29am

re: #69 Walter L. Newton

I’m not going to argue with someone who doesn’t have a clue as to the foundations of what brought Hilter (and many others in Europe) to feel a need to cleanse Europe of it’s Jews… it was a anti-semitism that was fuel by Christianity from about 300 C.E. onwards.

Best of luck to you.

The fact remains that while there was plenty of antisemitism in the Church, that did not ignite the Holocaust.

76 SpaceJesus  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:46:52am

re: #71 researchok

Hitler was an Occultist- if for no other reason than to create a religion.


Hitler liked to fantasize about pure German culture and old German pagan stuff, but he was still very much a Catholic.

77 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:47:33am

Are we turning into Glen Beck? How the heck did Hitler come up?

78 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:47:36am

re: #75 researchok

Best of luck to you.

The fact remains that while there was plenty of antisemitism in the Church, that did not ignite the Holocaust.

Anti-semitism did not ignite the Holocaust… wow, I must have missed something?

79 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:48:16am

re: #77 Thanos

Are we turning into Glen Beck? How the heck did Hitler come up?

I brought him up…

80 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:49:32am

re: #79 Walter L. Newton

Welll then Boooooooo ! Boooooo! hissss! Poor form Walter.

81 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:49:57am

re: #71 researchok

Hitler was an Occultist- if for no other reason than to create a religion.

As for the atheists, I agree. My point was that you cannot throw the baby out with the bath water.

There are bad examples of religion and there are good examples. Same thing with atheism. There are moral atheists and there are immoral atheists.

The problem isn’t religion of atheism.

Hitler did use Christianity, and European anti-semetism, to fuel his “cult”.

Atheism has never been used to justify mass murder, but religion has on countless occasions been used to justify killing those not of the same religion. You’re statement about the existence of good and bad atheists and religious folks is true. But it takes religion to convince otherwise good people that committing evil acts is morally justified.

82 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:50:21am

re: #72 SpaceJesus

Doesn’t matter. He never left the church, and church sided with him. If they had any real convictions in an afterlife and what is right and wrong, then they would have resisted him to the point of death. Also, both Hitler and Mussolini signed their first concordances with the Vatican itself. This wasn’t just individual ministers, this was the entire church.

The church sided with him under the threat of coercion. Your remarks on conviction are right on the money.

The treaties signed are problematic on their face.

Then again, Hitler never honored any agreement he signed (recall Chamberlain’s triumphant return, ‘I hold in my hand a paper signed by Herr Hitler….Peace in our time’.

We all know the rest.

83 Racer X  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:50:22am

re: #77 Thanos

Are we turning into Glen Beck? How the heck did Hitler come up?

Moral equivalency.

84 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:51:09am

re: #78 Walter L. Newton

Anti-semitism did not ignite the Holocaust… wow, I must have missed something?

You said the Church ignited the Holocaust.

85 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:51:17am

Time line.
historyplace.com

86 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:51:37am

Seriously, this is about religious luddite fundamentalism, the Christian ones disaffected with Charles in this country aren’t too distant from their luddite cousins who attack Vilk in Europe. Don’t need to bring up Glen Beck’s favorite example to demo that either.

87 HoosierHoops  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:51:57am

re: #79 Walter L. Newton

I brought him up…

Ironic..I have the movie the sum of all fears playing in the background and Hitler was mentioned about 3 times in about 30 seconds just when you posted that..Weird timing

88 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:52:05am

re: #86 Thanos

Seriously, this is about religious luddite fundamentalism, the Christian ones disaffected with Charles in this country aren’t too distant from their luddite cousins who attack Vilk in Europe. Don’t need to bring up Glen Beck’s favorite example to demo that either.

Ain’t that the truth.

89 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:52:31am

re: #77 Thanos

Are we turning into Glen Beck? How the heck did Hitler come up?

Besides Godwin’s Law, the usual canard by religion apologists is to say “Hitler, Mao, Stalin were atheists, therefore atheism is evil.” It’s a canard since Hitler was no atheist and the other two never justified killing people by the lack of any existence in god.

90 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:52:59am

re: #84 researchok

You said the Church ignited the Holocaust.

Who spent from appox. 300 C.E onward flaming anti-semitism? Tell me?

91 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:53:37am

re: #87 HoosierHoops

Ironic..I have the movie the sum of all fears playing in the background and Hitler was mentioned about 3 times in about 30 seconds just when you posted that..Weird timing

That movie used Nazi’s instead of Muslim terrorist because of PC bullshit.

92 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:53:54am

re: #81 BryanS

Hitler did use Christianity, and European anti-semetism, to fuel his “cult”.

Atheism has never been used to justify mass murder, but religion has on countless occasions been used to justify killing those not of the same religion. You’re statement about the existence of good and bad atheists and religious folks is true. But it takes religion to convince otherwise good people that committing evil acts is morally justified.

Agreed, He used Christianity- but the Church did not ignite the Holocaust. One can argue whether or not the Church turned a blind eye, etc, but they did not ignite the Holocaust.

93 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:54:21am
94 Racer X  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:55:05am

re: #85 Cannadian Club Akbar

Time line.
[Link: www.historyplace.com…]

Good link. The next time someone compares anyone or thing to the Nazis, they may want to peruse this list. The Nazis were evil fucking scum. There is no comparison today.

95 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:55:21am

re: #90 Walter L. Newton

Who spent from appox. 300 C.E onward flaming anti-semitism? Tell me?

Nazi Germany was not the Church. Nazi Germany was not an arm of the Church. No one has made that assertion.

Almost no one.

96 HoosierHoops  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:55:25am

re: #91 Cannadian Club Akbar

That movie used Nazi’s instead of Muslim terrorist because of PC bullshit.

The book rocked! I’m a huge Clancy fan

97 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:55:34am

re: #92 researchok

Agreed, He used Christianity- but the Church did not ignite the Holocaust. One can argue whether or not the Church turned a blind eye, etc, but they did not ignite the Holocaust.

If the argument is only they didn’t ignite the fire, sure. But they sure set up one hell of a bonfire pit, loaded it up with fuel, and tossed out a bunch of matches.

98 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:55:52am

re: #93 MandyManners

What about Mao?

And Stalin.

99 Racer X  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:56:12am

How many Christians did the Nazis murder?

100 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:56:31am

re: #81 BryanS

Hitler did use Christianity, and European anti-semetism, to fuel his “cult”.

Atheism has never been used to justify mass murder, but religion has on countless occasions been used to justify killing those not of the same religion. You’re statement about the existence of good and bad atheists and religious folks is true. But it takes religion to convince otherwise good people that committing evil acts is morally justified.

It may be pleasant for you to think that, but it’s bullshit.

Does the name “Stalin” ring any bells?

101 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:57:15am

re: #94 Racer X

Good link. The next time someone compares anyone or thing to the Nazis, they may want to peruse this list. The Nazis were evil fucking scum. There is no comparison today.

I did research for a movie I thought about writing. Went to the library. Microfiche. Saw stories from the 1930’s. Hitler was a bad man. And no one saw it.

102 ryannon  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:57:40am

re: #10 Walter L. Newton

It’s only a matter of time… remember the Crusades?

I sure do. And a damned good time we had. I can’t wait to see Jerusalem again.

103 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:57:58am

And what the fuck is “anti-semetism”?

Stupid atheist.

104 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:58:01am

re: #93 MandyManners

What about Mao?

What about him? Did he suggest that because there is no god, he was justified to slaughter his opponents?

105 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:59:01am

re: #97 BryanS

If the argument is only they didn’t ignite the fire, sure. But they sure set up one hell of a bonfire pit, loaded it up with fuel, and tossed out a bunch of matches.

Not the case. By the time WWII rolled around, Euro anti semitism had begun to decline

For example, Jews in Poland were more prosperous than Jews anywhere else, they were integrated into the political, judicial and educational establishment, etc. Even more so in Germany.

That is what Hitler and the Nazis rejected- the integration of Jews into mainstream European society.

106 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:59:01am

re: #104 BryanS

What about him? Did he suggest that because there is no god, he was justified to slaughter his opponents?

Done in the name of atheism.

107 ryannon  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:59:36am

re: #15 SpaceJesus

islam has over 1 billion followers.

clearly, a small segment of islam has some serious problems

Their serious problems have an unfortunate way of becoming our serious problems.

108 HoosierHoops  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:59:51am

re: #99 Racer X

How many Christians did the Nazis murder?

Last stats I checked.. 54 Million souls lost their lives in WW2..It really doesn’t matter what religion they belonged too…It is Mankinds Shame in moments of history

109 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 10:59:58am
110 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:00:56am

re: #109 MandyManners

Aren’t we also forgetting the role of Islam in places like Croatia?

Yup. Muslim troops recruited for Hitler.

Good catch.

111 ryannon  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:00:57am

re: #21 MandyManners

Christians tried to burn down Maplethorpe’s house?

I didn’t know that. I love his work.

112 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:01:13am

re: #92 researchok

Agreed, He used Christianity- but the Church did not ignite the Holocaust. One can argue whether or not the Church turned a blind eye, etc, but they did not ignite the Holocaust.

That’s stupid… if the church hadn’t spent almost 1700 years teaching believers that Jews were evil, dirty, crooks and thieves, blood libel and all the other stereotypes that became INGRAINED in the conscience of most people of Eastern and Western Europe, Hitler would never have had a scapegoat like the Jews that almost no common citizen had any qualms about getting rid of.

Please… you can’t change historical fact. And when I use the word church, I’m talking about the people, the ideas, the theology, not some edit handed down from the Pope saying… “Adolph… have a nice Holocaust.”

You know what I am talking about.

113 Gus  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:01:29am

Ah yes. The old my religion is better than your religion arguments with the perennial and unifying “atheists were the worst” meme.

114 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:01:37am

re: #100 Cato the Elder

It may be pleasant for you to think that, but it’s bullshit.

Does the name “Stalin” ring any bells?

Yes it does, and no he didn’t commit atrocities because he was atheist. There are some questions about Stalin in particular whether he truly was atheist. As pointed out elsewhere in this thread, he did have a religious upbringing and education. He was certainly opposed to the church as a political force.

115 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:02:11am

re: #110 researchok

Yup. Muslim troops recruited for Hitler.

Good catch.

Wasn’t Hitler and a Muffi friends? (sp?)

116 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:02:42am

re: #106 Cato the Elder

Done in the name of atheism.

Source?

117 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:02:56am

re: #108 HoosierHoops

Last stats I checked.. 54 Million souls lost their lives in WW2..It really doesn’t matter what religion they belonged too…It is Mankinds Shame in moments of history

One of many.

118 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:03:03am

re: #107 ryannon

Their serious problems have an unfortunate way of becoming our serious problems.

Serious problems today are not like serious problems yesterday.

Used to be you needed an army to do damage. some Today, all you need is one nut job, a wooden spoon, a bathtub and chemicals…

119 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:04:07am

re: #116 McSpiff

Source?

Russian Orthodox Church. Ask ‘em. I dare you.

120 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:04:24am

re: #105 researchok

Not the case. By the time WWII rolled around, Euro anti semitism had begun to decline

For example, Jews in Poland were more prosperous than Jews anywhere else, they were integrated into the political, judicial and educational establishment, etc. Even more so in Germany.

That is what Hitler and the Nazis rejected- the integration of Jews into mainstream European society.

They couldn’t have exploited antisemitism if it wasn’t still there.

121 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:04:45am

re: #115 Cannadian Club Akbar

Wasn’t Hitler and a Muffi friends? (sp?)

Yup, there are photos and video of them together. He famously complained that Jews were not being killed fast enough in Auschwitz. He said he looked forward to killing Jews in Palestine.

Real peach of a guy.

122 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:04:57am

It’s AMAZING to me that there are still people who want to deny Christianity’s major contributions to anti-semitism and the effects and outcomes of that mind set.

123 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:04:59am

Just from this morning’s tweets you can see the same sort of religious luddism and intolerance growing in the US, I’ve rounded up a few below:
Religious School board luddites file for re election in Kansas

Baptist Bigot Frowns on Wingnut Beck speaking at Falwell’s University

Hypocritical Anti Gay Religious Intolerance Crusader resigns

Bigot Buchanan’s Take on Kagan

Luddite Religious parents Pray son to death

Religious Nutball Nirther Farrah to Speak at Tea Party again

Nun Rebuked over Abortion to save woman’s life


That’s just today, and it’s just scraping the surface of religious luddite intolerance that’s out there every day in this country.

124 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:05:36am

re: #120 BryanS

They couldn’t have exploited antisemitism if it wasn’t still there.

I said it was still there- but it was measurably on the decline, all across Europe

125 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:05:37am

re: #119 Cato the Elder

Russian Orthodox Church. Ask ‘em. I dare you.

You want me to ask the Russian Orthodox Church for a source to where Mao said he was acting in the name of atheism? I suspect they might be a tad confused Cato, as you apparently are.

126 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:06:21am

re: #116 McSpiff

Source?

Cato’s sources are usually his inflated ego.

127 ryannon  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:06:34am

re: #53 EmmmieG

No, I’m talking about the whole nationalism thing. That wasn’t about religion, it was about race.

Why else would Hitler have hated the Slavs and the Poles?

(I am not trying to diminish the role of religion in antisemitism, I just want racism to get its fair share of abuse.)

And the gypsies. And the mentally handicapped.

128 Locker  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:06:36am

re: #116 McSpiff

Source?


One thing I absolutely love about LGF is that you can legitimately ask “Source?” and no one bitches about it. It’s expected that you should be able to reference your shit or folks are going to tell you to shut the fuck up.

I love this place.

129 HoosierHoops  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:06:43am

re: #112 Walter L. Newton

That’s stupid… if the church hadn’t spent almost 1700 years teaching believers that Jews were evil, dirty, crooks and thieves, blood libel and all the other stereotypes that became INGRAINED in the conscience of most people of Eastern and Western Europe, Hitler would never have had a scapegoat like the Jews that almost no common citizen had any qualms about getting rid of.

Please… you can’t change historical fact. And when I use the word church, I’m talking about the people, the ideas, the theology, not some edit handed down from the Pope saying… “Adolph… have a nice Holocaust.”

You know what I am talking about.

You see those words highlighted in your post?
Not once in my life from Altar boy and going to Catholic school have I once heard those words…Ever

130 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:06:43am

re: #122 Walter L. Newton

It’s AMAZING to me that there are still people who want to deny Christianity’s major contributions to anti-semitism and the effects and outcomes of that mind set.

Who are those people, Walter?

131 tigger2005  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:07:06am

This sort of thing can be argued endlessly.

How much are human religions and ideologies to blame for orgies of bloodletting?

Chimpanzees slaughter each other, and people have been slaughtering each other for all of human history…since long before Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Nazism, or Communism arrived on the scene.

Some religions and ideologies do seem to be just a tiny bit better at “civilizing” us than others. Just a mere fraction of a bit better.

I think for all the blood that has been shed in the name of Christianity, the example of its central figure certainly does not justify anything more than symbolic violence (the cleansing of the temple courtyard). The example of Islam’s central figure, on the other hand, justifies considerably more.

On the other hand, the largest and most destructive wars in human history were waged by Christian states. The most efficient genocide in human history was conducted by a Christian state.

But, again, how much blame does Christianity deserve for this fact, compared to nationalism and secular ideologies such as Nazism and Communism? What about the principles of the Enlightenment which brought about the scientific revolution, which in turn led to the Industrial Revolution and the development of weapons many orders of magnitude more destructive than any seen before? Was all this driven primarily by Christian faith, by a drive to bring everyone (other Christian denominations and non-Christians alike) under the dominion of a single Christian church?

It just seems like the forces that have driven Western expansionism, imperialism, and internal revolutions and conflicts have been a bit more complex than those that have driven Islamic expansionism and terrorism, because unlike Islam, Christianity does not have an explicit, comprehensive concept similar to Jihad. There is the Great Commission, there’s no scriptural justification for converting others by force.

132 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:07:30am
133 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:08:04am
134 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:08:09am

re: #119 Cato the Elder

Russian Orthodox Church. Ask ‘em. I dare you.

Yeah, Stalin didn’t much like the church. Funny how when churches get involved in politics, they get political enemies.

135 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:08:09am

What Europe really needs is a bit more secular intolerance towards those who call for violence. They need to start displacing the hate clerics who call for violence and law breaking.

136 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:08:38am
137 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:09:24am

re: #105 researchok

Not the case. By the time WWII rolled around, Euro anti semitism had begun to decline

For example, Jews in Poland were more prosperous than Jews anywhere else, they were integrated into the political, judicial and educational establishment, etc. Even more so in Germany.

That is what Hitler and the Nazis rejected- the integration of Jews into mainstream European society.

Assimilated non-religious Jews. As a person who studied this very subject in Warsaw, you seem to think that Poland was becoming a paradise for Jews in the middle 30’s. It was not. The Jews in Poland that were more prosperous where those who decided to assimilate, and even then, it was only a small number who were able to move up the social ladder, most dependent on if Jew and his/her expertise was needed in the upper Polish/Warsaw social circles.

Your comment is a typical Polsih spin on what was really happening in that country before 1939… I’ve studied this subject there, there is a very different picture painted when you get to the core of the times.

138 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:09:47am
I had made up my mind to write no more either about the Jews or against them. But since I learned that those miserable and accursed people do not cease to lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous activities of the Jews and who warned the Christians to be on their guard against them. I would not have believed that a Christian could be duped by the Jews into taking their exile and wretchedness upon himself. However, the devil is the god of the world, and wherever God’s word is absent he has an easy task, not only with the weak but also with the strong. May God help us. Amen.

— “On the Jews and their lies”
Martin Luther


Yeah, you could say some prominent Christians were anti-Semitic.

From Wiki on the book:

The prevailing scholarly view[8] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany’s attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust. Four hundred years after it was written, the Nazis displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[9] Against this view, theologian Johannes Wallmann writes that the treatise had no continuity of influence in Germany, and was in fact largely ignored during the 18th and 19th centuries.[10] Hans Hillerbrand argues that to focus on Luther’s role in the development of German antisemitism is to underestimate the “larger peculiarities of German history.”[11]

139 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:09:56am

re: #130 researchok

Who are those people, Walter?

You for instance.

140 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:09:56am
141 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:10:24am

re: #135 Thanos

What Europe really needs is a bit more secular intolerance towards those who call for violence. They need to start displacing the hate clerics who call for violence and law breaking.

They need to deport the bastards who preach violence. A permanent cessation of cradle to grave handouts out to make an impact.

142 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:10:37am

re: #129 HoosierHoops

You see those words highlighted in your post?
Not once in my life from Altar boy and going to Catholic school have I once heard those words…Ever

Probably because you grew up in the later 1900s and not any of the previous dozen centuries.

143 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:10:50am
144 ryannon  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:11:02am

re: #73 Thanos

Charles:

If you weren’t affecting them and their grasp on power reality they wouldn’t be tweeting, Consider it a compliment.

Fixed.

145 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:11:19am

re: #139 Walter L. Newton

You for instance.

Where did I say there was no Christian anti semitism? In fact, i said the opposite.

146 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:11:57am
147 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:12:45am

I am gonna say this, but understand my point. Great speakers can get many minions to believe. Hitler was an extraordinary speaker. Add to that the financial difficulty of Germany at the time. For people to by into his rhetoric is not surprising. Blaming others for your failures is always easy.

148 Kragar (Antichrist )  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:13:01am

re: #141 researchok

They need to deport the bastards who preach violence. A permanent cessation of cradle to grave handouts out to make an impact.

And where do you deport those who were born and raised in Europe?

149 tigger2005  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:13:31am

re: #66 SpaceJesus

Actually Hitler compared his plans to exterminate the Jews with the passage in the bible of Jesus casting out the money lenders.

That is a pretty damn huge stretch though. Jesus himself was a Jew, his followers were Jewish, and he certainly was not casting out the moneylenders because they were Jewish. And he didn’t kill any of them, either.

On the other hand, “His blood be upon us and our children” IS a passage that Christians should have rejected utterly, but failed to do. Of course, whoever originally wrote that passage did so when Christianity was just another sect with little power or influence. He could not have known what evil it would cause.

150 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:14:50am

re: #147 Cannadian Club Akbar

When we covered Nazi Germany, I had one friend who admitted that putting him in that position, without the benefit of hindsight, and he would have been a fascist.

He took a lot of flak for that, but I respected him for his honesty.

151 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:15:16am
152 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:15:21am

re: #145 researchok

Where did I say there was no Christian anti semitism? In fact, i said the opposite.

Go read some Bismark, circa 1848/49 if you want to know more about the “Jewish” problem in Poland.

153 Racer X  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:16:19am

LGF is a funny place. One day you can totally agree with someone. The next is WTF is that guy smoking?

154 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:16:26am
155 HoosierHoops  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:16:39am

re: #142 BryanS

Probably because you grew up in the later 1900s and not any of the previous dozen centuries.

Oh good Lord.. What opinion from 1200 years ago effects your life today?
I know kids that haven’t even heard of the Beatles before…

156 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:16:52am

re: #125 McSpiff

You want me to ask the Russian Orthodox Church for a source to where Mao said he was acting in the name of atheism? I suspect they might be a tad confused Cato, as you apparently are.

I’m talking about the Russian commie atheists, fool.

157 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:17:17am

re: #150 McSpiff

I was gonna list great speakers and their impact, but I didn’t want to associate any with Hitler.

158 Kragar (Antichrist )  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:17:21am

re: #154 MandyManners

Image: clintons-719781.jpg

Why would you do such a thing?

159 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:17:28am

re: #137 Walter L. Newton

Assimilated non-religious Jews. As a person who studied this very subject in Warsaw, you seem to think that Poland was becoming a paradise for Jews in the middle 30’s. It was not. The Jews in Poland that were more prosperous where those who decided to assimilate, and even then, it was only a small number who were able to move up the social ladder, most dependent on if Jew and his/her expertise was needed in the upper Polish/Warsaw social circles.

Your comment is a typical Polsih spin on what was really happening in that country before 1939… I’ve studied this subject there, there is a very different picture painted when you get to the core of the times.

Well, we have something in common. I spent time in Krakow.

In fact- and as you must know- there were Jewish cultural institutions, schools for boys and girls, gymnasiums, business, banks and so on. In fact, there was a great Jewish middle class emerging.

The shtetls you refer to were not reserved for Jews only. Rural Poles lives in the same conditions. Yes, there was anti semitism- plenty of it, especially in more rural areas.

That said, it was on the decline. Notwithstanding how that displeased many, it is a reality. Some have tied the decline of Polish anti semitism to electrification, some to the use of mechanical farm implements and road building.

Interesting ideas.

160 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:17:59am

Meanwhile, a new model of Jewish Pluralism in Sweden.

(also note all the moderater comment deletes on this article at the Guardian…)

161 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:18:00am

re: #134 BryanS

Yeah, Stalin didn’t much like the church. Funny how when churches get involved in politics, they get political enemies.

Funny how when atheists get called on their bullshit, they get cranky.

162 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:18:22am

re: #156 Cato the Elder

I’m talking about the Russian commie atheists, fool.

Then why did you say Mao? Come on, your arguments are so simplistic you should not be having this much trouble keeping them straight.

163 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:18:45am

re: #152 Walter L. Newton

Go read some Bismark, circa 1848/49 if you want to know more about the “Jewish” problem in Poland.

A) that does not answer my question
B) I was discussing 20th century Poland. I never denied European anti semitism.

164 ryannon  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:18:55am

re: #101 Cannadian Club Akbar

I did research for a movie I thought about writing. Went to the library. Microfiche. Saw stories from the 1930’s. Hitler was a bad man. And no one saw it.

No one wanted to see it. There’s a big difference, and it’s one of the reasons why I keep coming back to LGF.

165 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:19:21am

re: #162 McSpiff

Then why did you say Mao? Come on, your arguments are so simplistic you should not be having this much trouble keeping them straight.

I didn’t say “Mao”. Check it out.

166 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:19:27am

re: #145 researchok

Where did I say there was no Christian anti semitism? In fact, i said the opposite.

The Nazis claimed that their ideology was influenced by the leadership and policies of German Chancellor Otto von Bismarck, the founder of the German Empire.[30] The Nazis declared that they were dedicated to continuing the process of creating a unified German nation state that they claimed Bismarck had begun and desired to achieve.[31] The Nazis claimed that Bismarck was unable to complete German national unification due to Jewish infiltration of the German parliament, and that their abolishing of parliament ended the obstacle to unification that Bismarck faced.[30]

167 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:19:54am

/pimf “moderatOr”

168 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:20:09am

re: #164 ryannon

No one wanted to see it. There’s a big difference, and it’s one of the reasons why I keep coming back to LGF.

Yea. We’re pretty fucking to the point.:)

169 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:20:17am

re: #155 HoosierHoops

Oh good Lord.. What opinion from 1200 years ago effects your life today?
I know kids that haven’t even heard of the Beatles before…

Right, but the antisemitism was pervasive within the Catholic church until post world war two. Much to their credit, and especially in recent times, they have taken steps to address that problem. You based your perceptions of whether the church was antisemitic on your own personal experience. My point was only that your personal experience is likely recent and does not reflect on the much larger history of the church where antisemitism was the norm.

170 HoosierHoops  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:21:09am

re: #159 researchok

Well, we have something in common. I spent time in Krakow.
We have a really hard time keeping a circuit up in Krakow…I got beeped at 4:30am yesterday upon switching to the backup line… It is a weekly thing there..Yea I’m looking at you NTT..

171 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:21:10am
172 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:21:24am

re: #118 researchok

Serious problems today are not like serious problems yesterday.

Used to be you needed an army to do damage. some Today, all you need is one nut job, a wooden spoon, a bathtub and chemicals…

Nothing new about that.

WWI was started by a Serb with a pistol.

173 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:21:24am

re: #160 Thanos

Meanwhile, a new model of Jewish Pluralism in Sweden.

(also note all the moderater comment deletes on this article at the Guardian…)

No doubt an institution that heartens Swedish Muslims.

/

174 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:21:37am

re: #161 Cato the Elder

Funny how when atheists get called on their bullshit, they get cranky.

Pot, I’ve got kettle on line two!

175 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:22:03am

re: #174 BryanS

Pot, I’ve got kettle on line two!

Press 2 for logic.

176 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:22:27am

re: #161 Cato the Elder

Funny how when atheists get called on their bullshit, they get cranky.

Bulgaria definitely felt the fruits of Communism as well. I spoke with more than my fair share personally and got the stories.

177 Gus  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:22:50am

re: #135 Thanos

What Europe really needs is a bit more secular intolerance towards those who call for violence. They need to start displacing the hate clerics who call for violence and law breaking.

There seems to be a rather large secular component to these types of crimes involving tribalism almost to the point of being rather similar to street gangs or soccer hooliganism. The efforts to combat these criminals have involved the breaking up of such groups in an effort to thwart the associated violence.

Unfortunately, unlike gangs and soccer hooligans the Islamic Radicals are able to hide behind the veil of religion. This is the unfortunate bi-product of thousands of years of cultural evolution. I do question whether these perps are really motivated by their religion but instead reaction based on the more primitive human aspects such as tribalism, gangs, and youthful radicalism.

178 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:22:54am

re: #159 researchok

Well, we have something in common. I spent time in Krakow.

In fact- and as you must know- there were Jewish cultural institutions, schools for boys and girls, gymnasiums, business, banks and so on. In fact, there was a great Jewish middle class emerging.

The shtetls you refer to were not reserved for Jews only. Rural Poles lives in the same conditions. Yes, there was anti semitism- plenty of it, especially in more rural areas.

That said, it was on the decline. Notwithstanding how that displeased many, it is a reality. Some have tied the decline of Polish anti semitism to electrification, some to the use of mechanical farm implements and road building.

Interesting ideas.

You contradict yourself in your own description of the times… “as you must know- there were Jewish cultural institutions, schools for boys and girls, gymnasiums, business, banks and so on.”

Why… because of anti-semitism. And what was a problem in the cities were only multiplied in the rural villages, which also had their “Jewish communities” set aside. I’ve been there too.

I don’t agree one whit with what you are suggesting.

179 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:23:25am

re: #175 Cato the Elder

Press 2 for logic.

Press 3 for Spanish and 4 to talk to a Dell rep in India.
///

180 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:23:42am

re: #170 HoosierHoops

Krakow is booming. The infrastructures can’t keep up. I hear it’s just crazy there now.

181 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:23:53am

re: #165 Cato the Elder

I didn’t say “Mao”. Check it out.

Cato, cato, cato. You sad little man. You’ve lost your thread!

Allow me to quote the posts in order:

re: #93 MandyManners

What about Mao?

re: #104 BryanS

What about him? Did he suggest that because there is no god, he was justified to slaughter his opponents?

re: #106 Cato the Elder

Done in the name of atheism.

re: #116 McSpiff

Source?

re: #119 Cato the Elder

Russian Orthodox Church. Ask ‘em. I dare you.

re: #156 Cato the Elder

I’m talking about the Russian commie atheists, fool.

re: #162 McSpiff

Then why did you say Mao? Come on, your arguments are so simplistic you should not be having this much trouble keeping them straight.

There ya go chap! Back on track? Maybe if you can’t follow the thread you should just read and follow a long.

182 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:24:39am
183 Olsonist  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:25:12am

re: #21 MandyManners

Christians tried to burn down Maplethorpe’s house?

No, but the Catholic Church refrained from condemning the 1994 Rwandan genocide and a small group of Catholic priests actively took part.

184 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:25:16am

re: #182 MandyManners

A long what?

Clooney?
/

185 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:25:32am
186 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:25:45am

re: #178 Walter L. Newton

You contradict yourself in your own description of the times… “as you must know- there were Jewish cultural institutions, schools for boys and girls, gymnasiums, business, banks and so on.”

Why… because of anti-semitism. And what was a problem in the cities were only multiplied in the rural villages, which also had their “Jewish communities” set aside. I’ve been there too.

I don’t agree one whit with what you are suggesting.

187 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:27:04am

re: #185 Cato the Elder

Here’s the Vilks drawing, in case no one has posted it yet.

So enraging…I can see how such a masterpiece can stir people to violence ///

188 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:27:05am
189 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:27:17am
190 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:27:38am

re: #186 researchok

re: #178 Walter L. Newton

You contradict yourself in your own description of the times… “as you must know- there were Jewish cultural institutions, schools for boys and girls, gymnasiums, business, banks and so on.”

Why… because of anti-semitism. And what was a problem in the cities were only multiplied in the rural villages, which also had their “Jewish communities” set aside. I’ve been there too.

I don’t agree one whit with what you are suggesting.

Right- all those local Jewish businesses, mines, sawmils and lumber companies, banks, politicians, appointed judges, etc was made possible because of anti semitism.

191 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:28:25am

re: #181 McSpiff

There ya go chap! Back on track? Maybe if you can’t follow the thread you should just read and follow a long.

Follow a long what? Dong?

Mandy mentioned Mao. I brought up Stalin. And that’s what I’ve been talking about ever since.

You confusing me with Mandy, fool?

192 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:28:29am

re: #72 SpaceJesus

I would just like to say I am totally enjoying your posts on this thread!

193 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:28:30am

re: #188 MandyManners

Well, look at how it’s handled pedophilia.

No child’s behind left! Hey, if you’re in for a penny, might as well be in for a pound.

194 Racer X  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:28:53am

Wheaties was the reason why Michael Jordan was so good.

195 ryannon  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:29:28am

re: #135 Thanos

What Europe really needs is a bit more secular intolerance towards those who call for violence. They need to start displacing the hate clerics who call for violence and law breaking.

Some EU countries are doing just that. France, for one.

196 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:29:41am

Music time…

197 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:30:18am

re: #191 Cato the Elder

Follow a long what? Dong?

Mandy mentioned Mao. I brought up Stalin. And that’s what I’ve been talking about ever since.

You confusing me with Mandy, fool?

Then you need to stop replying to posts about Mao, or use the word ‘Stalin’ in any of your replies. Go back through this thread. I quoted the posts for you. You replied “Done in the name of atheism” to a reply about Mao.

So not only can you not cite a source, but you can’t even reply to the right post? This is just getting sad.

198 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:30:22am

re: #181 McSpiff

But, if you want to talk about Mao, the point is the same. Atheist mass murders of Confucians, Buddhists, Christians, and others, done in the name of no god.

199 Oh no...Sand People!  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:30:48am

Well. Off to a soccer game.

Don’t behead, or burn down someone’s house while I am gone. Play nice.

200 Gus  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:30:55am

re: #161 Cato the Elder

Funny how when atheists get called on their bullshit, they get cranky.

I choose to turn the other cheek and refuse to down-ding or demean those that turn their verbal swords towards my people. I will not seek revenge but learn to love my antagonists.

201 Locker  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:30:57am

Well I’m starving and I bought 2lbs of Carnitas down in South Sac yesterday and it’s Carnitas con Huevos time. Back later and please do your best to keep some of our crotchitier members from spontaneously combusting.

202 HoosierHoops  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:31:05am

re: #180 researchok

Krakow is booming. The infrastructures can’t keep up. I hear it’s just crazy there now.

It is a pain in the ass..We have to keep a Oracle connection on the network to Krakow 24/7…It is not going well…You have to drill down to 3 local providers just to do a loop back tests…

203 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:31:22am

re: #197 McSpiff

Then you need to stop replying to posts about Mao, or use the word ‘Stalin’ in any of your replies. Go back through this thread. I quoted the posts for you. You replied “Done in the name of atheism” to a reply about Mao.

So not only can you not cite a source, but you can’t even reply to the right post? This is just getting sad.

The only thing I “need to do” is die, and you’re not gonna make that happen today, fool.

204 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:31:50am

re: #200 Gus 802

I did my first downding yesterday!!!!

205 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:31:54am

re: #198 Cato the Elder

But, if you want to talk about Mao, the point is the same. Atheist mass murders of Confucians, Buddhists, Christians, and others, done in the name of no god.

Are you familiar with the term flight of ideas? You’re rambling about Stalin while replying to posts about Mao.

206 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:32:18am

re: #200 Gus 802

I choose to turn the other cheek and refuse to down-ding or demean those that turn their verbal swords towards my people. I will not seek revenge but learn to love my antagonists.

And where did you get that idea, pray?

207 Locker  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:32:43am

re: #203 Cato the Elder

The only thing I “need to do” is die, and you’re not gonna make that happen today, fool.

It’s a lot easier to just say “Uncle”.

208 Gus  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:32:49am

re: #204 Cannadian Club Akbar

I did my first downding yesterday!!!

Really? That would be the first time in almost 5 years.

209 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:32:58am

re: #205 McSpiff

Are you familiar with the term flight of ideas? You’re rambling about Stalin while replying to posts about Mao.

Are you familiar with the term “nonsense”?

It would seem so.

210 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:32:59am

re: #203 Cato the Elder

The only thing I “need to do” is die, and you’re not gonna make that happen today, fool.

Apology accepted. We all make mistakes. Although pouting makes you look like a spoilsport.

211 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:33:25am

re: #202 HoosierHoops

It is a pain in the ass..We have to keep a Oracle connection on the network to Krakow 24/7…It is not going well…You have to drill down to 3 local providers just to do a loop back tests…

I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

I can say that if you are in a rush and need help in POland, well, good luck with that.

They are world class tinkerers and jury riggers.

Great at math oriented stuff too.

212 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:33:33am

re: #190 researchok

re: #178 Walter L. Newton

Right- all those local Jewish businesses, mines, sawmils and lumber companies, banks, politicians, appointed judges, etc was made possible because of anti semitism.

You really need to study DEEPLY on this subject… I don’t know what stake you have in this minimalist approach to the actualities of the levels of anti-semitism that existed in Poland, Germany and many other places, fueled by almost 1700 years of Christian hatred of the Jews… but you are wrong.

How about giving me some scholarly links to back up what you are claiming. I’ve heard nothing from you but vague suppositions.

213 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:33:38am

re: #207 Locker

It’s a lot easier to just say “Uncle”.

I never take the easy road.

214 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:33:54am

re: #209 Cato the Elder

Are you familiar with the term “nonsense”?

It would seem so.

If I wasn’t before you’ve made sure I’m well acquainted with it.

215 bratwurst  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:34:10am

re: #180 researchok

Krakow is booming. The infrastructures can’t keep up. I hear it’s just crazy there now.

One of the greatest towns I have had the pleasure to visit. HIGHLY recommended to any and all.

216 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:34:12am

re: #208 Gus 802

Really? That would be the first time in almost 5 years.

Yep. I don’t downding. I figure the person isn’t wearing a helmet and will eventually hurt themselves. Heh.

217 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:34:56am
218 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:36:20am

re: #215 bratwurst

One of the greatest towns I have had the pleasure to visit. HIGHLY recommended to any and all.

Yes, it’s beautiful. Barely touched by the war.

Wawel is extraordinary.

219 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:38:36am

re: #217 MandyManners

Interesting piece from Bernard Lewis.

Home run.

220 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:38:47am

re: #215 bratwurst

re: #218 researchok

I am half Polish. I have no desire to vacation anywhere oversees. But I do want to visit Poland. Thanks.

221 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:39:39am

Vladimir Lenin, atheist:

“We need the real, nation-wide terror which reinvigorates the country and through which the Great French Revolution achieved glory.”

“Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.”

Josef Stalin, atheist:

“Death solves all problems - no man, no problem.”

“The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic.”

Moving right along…

“An estimated 7 million Soviet Ukrainians starved to death during the famine, orchestrated by the Soviet regime to break the national will of the fiercely independent Ukrainian peasantry. The mass starvation resulted from the confiscation by authorities of all grain, foodstuffs and seed, which it decreed to be state property.”

Nothing to see here, though.

222 Gus  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:40:58am

re: #206 Cato the Elder

And where did you get that idea, pray?

Saint Finbar

223 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:41:20am
224 Gus  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:41:49am

re: #221 Cato the Elder

Vladimir Lenin, atheist:

“We need the real, nation-wide terror which reinvigorates the country and through which the Great French Revolution achieved glory.”

“Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.”

Josef Stalin, atheist:

“Death solves all problems - no man, no problem.”

“The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic.”

Moving right along…

“An estimated 7 million Soviet Ukrainians starved to death during the famine, orchestrated by the Soviet regime to break the national will of the fiercely independent Ukrainian peasantry. The mass starvation resulted from the confiscation by authorities of all grain, foodstuffs and seed, which it decreed to be state property.”

Nothing to see here, though.

Gott Mit Uns

225 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:43:00am

re: #219 researchok

I guess you’re not interested in giving me some scholarly sources to back up your statement “By the time WWII rolled around, Euro anti semitism had begun to decline” ?

226 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:43:10am

re: #220 Cannadian Club Akbar

re: #218 researchok

I am half Polish. I have no desire to vacation anywhere oversees. But I do want to visit Poland. Thanks.

Pop culture jokes aside, Poland is a beautiful country. Enormous history, art, music, etc. Be sure to visit the Mountain regions are well (‘Guralki) and no matter what visit the bakeries!

Also, last primeval Euro forest stand is in Poland- Europe as it was before human settlement. Incredible!

227 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:44:06am

re: #221 Cato the Elder

Vladimir Lenin, atheist:

“We need the real, nation-wide terror which reinvigorates the country and through which the Great French Revolution achieved glory.”

“Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.”

Josef Stalin, atheist:

“Death solves all problems - no man, no problem.”

“The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic.”

Moving right along…

“An estimated 7 million Soviet Ukrainians starved to death during the famine, orchestrated by the Soviet regime to break the national will of the fiercely independent Ukrainian peasantry. The mass starvation resulted from the confiscation by authorities of all grain, foodstuffs and seed, which it decreed to be state property.”

Nothing to see here, though.

Obviously we can count on a dishonest scoundrel to juxtapose two unrelated quotes. Good show, charlatan!


If that is so, why do we not declare in our Program that we are atheists? Why do we not forbid Christians and other believers in God to join our Party?

The answer to this question will serve to explain the very important difference in the way the question of religion is presented by the bourgeois democrats and the Social-Democrats.

Our Program is based entirely on the scientific, and moreover the materialist, world-outlook. An explanation of our Program, therefore, necessarily includes an explanation of the true historical and economic roots of the religious fog. Our propaganda necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism; the publication of the appropriate scientific literature, which the autocratic feudal government has hitherto strictly forbidden and persecuted, must now form one of the fields of our Party work. We shall now probably have to follow the advice Engels once gave to the German Socialists: to translate and widely disseminate the literature of the eighteenth-century French Enlighteners and atheists.


reference here

He’s still an evil guy, but isn’t saying what you are implying he is saying.

228 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:44:15am

re: #221 Cato the Elder

The plural of anecdote is not data Cato. You’re going to need to do better than this before you prove anything about atheism. All you’ve shown is a highly biased sample of atheists were murders. Shall I start quoting various Popes and Bishops for you? Or would that be too embarrassing.

229 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:46:15am

re: #225 Walter L. Newton

I guess you’re not interested in giving me some scholarly sources to back up your statement “By the time WWII rolled around, Euro anti semitism had begun to decline” ?

Oh please.

You’re the guy who posits that Jews were afforded a middle class, allowed to establish banks, export companies and various industries and allowed entry to universities for example, because Poles were anti semitic.

230 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:46:45am

re: #228 McSpiff

The plural of anecdote is not data Cato. You’re going to need to do better than this before you prove anything about atheism. All you’ve shown is a highly biased sample of atheists were murders. Shall I start quoting various Popes and Bishops for you? Or would that be too embarrassing.

Idiot.

I do not deny the atrocities committed in the name of God.

You deny that any were ever committed in the name of atheism.

Munchkin.

231 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:47:18am

re: #226 researchok

Pop culture jokes aside, Poland is a beautiful country. Enormous history, art, music, etc. Be sure to visit the Mountain regions are well (‘Guralki) and no matter what visit the bakeries!

Also, last primeval Euro forest stand is in Poland- Europe as it was before human settlement. Incredible!

The Tampa Bay Lighting won a Stanley Cup.
The Bucs won a Superbowl.
I get the Rays to win a World Series and I can go to Poland. I am done with my list.

232 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:47:24am

re: #224 Gus 802

Gott Mit Uns

Got mittens?

233 Gus  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:47:57am

re: #232 Cato the Elder

Got mittens?

Munchkins!

234 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:47:58am

re: #227 BryanS

reference here

He’s still an evil guy, but isn’t saying what you are implying he is saying.

There’s no point in arguing with Cato. He’s smart enough to know when he’s being dishonest. If he wants to sink to that level in the name of justifying his own (apparently poorly held) beliefs, so be it.

If he needs to lie about me to justify his own beliefs, so be it. Glad to be of some comfort to him.

235 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:48:31am
236 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:50:08am

re: #235 MandyManners

Better…

237 ryannon  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:50:17am

re: #159 researchok

Well, we have something in common. I spent time in Krakow.

In fact- and as you must know- there were Jewish cultural institutions, schools for boys and girls, gymnasiums, business, banks and so on. In fact, there was a great Jewish middle class emerging.

The shtetls you refer to were not reserved for Jews only. Rural Poles lives in the same conditions. Yes, there was anti semitism- plenty of it, especially in more rural areas.

That said, it was on the decline. Notwithstanding how that displeased many, it is a reality. Some have tied the decline of Polish anti semitism to electrification, some to the use of mechanical farm implements and road building.

Interesting ideas.


Have any of you seen Claude Lanzmann’s nine-hour documentary on the holocaust, “Shoa”? Using interviews with villagers, it gets you right into the pre-war rural Polish mind-set. Not a reassuring vision.

238 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:50:33am

re: #231 Cannadian Club Akbar

The Tampa Bay Lighting won a Stanley Cup.
The Bucs won a Superbowl.
I get the Rays to win a World Series and I can go to Poland. I am done with my list.

LOL

That list will expand once you hit Poland. So much food, so little time.

The kremovka, pastichiki, nalishniki and other goodies will leave a permanent mark.

Also, be sure to check out the music, all genres. The jazz is surprisingly good.

Man, I could give you a whole list of places to see…

239 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:50:43am

re: #235 MandyManners

Amusing music break.

[Video]

LOL! A little bit of levity is fun from time to time.

240 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:50:46am

re: #234 McSpiff

There’s no point in arguing with Cato. He’s smart enough to know when he’s being dishonest. If he wants to sink to that level in the name of justifying his own (apparently poorly held) beliefs, so be it.

If he needs to lie about me to justify his own beliefs, so be it. Glad to be of some comfort to him.

Where am I being dishonest?

You don’t think Lenin, Stalin, and Mao believed in their own atheism and did their deeds in the name of it, and communism, and the perfectibility of man?

I am not juxtaposing them against the demons who did the same in the name of God. I am simply calling bullshit on the bullshit lie that mass murders were never committed in the name of “no god”.

Because it’s bullshit.

241 bratwurst  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:51:02am

re: #226 researchok

Pop culture jokes aside, Poland is a beautiful country. Enormous history, art, music, etc. Be sure to visit the Mountain regions are well (‘Guralki) and no matter what visit the bakeries!

Also, last primeval Euro forest stand is in Poland- Europe as it was before human settlement. Incredible!

Had a fantastic travel experience in Gdansk and the Baltic coast about 2 years ago as well. The country has got to be the most underrated destination in Europe.

242 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:51:15am
243 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:51:49am

re: #237 ryannon

Have any of you seen Claude Lanzmann’s nine-hour documentary on the holocaust, “Shoa”? Using interviews with villagers, it gets you right into the pre-war rural Polish mind-set. Not a reassuring vision.

Yes, I saw it. Excellent work.

The point is well taken. Even today, there are two Polands- and Europes. Urban and rural are worlds apart.

244 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:52:22am
245 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:52:23am

re: #238 researchok

If and when I go, you will be sought out….:)

246 ryannon  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:52:43am

re: #168 Cannadian Club Akbar

Yea. We’re pretty fucking to the point.:)

Source(s)?

/

247 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:52:56am
248 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:53:27am

re: #246 ryannon

Source(s)?

/

FUCK YOU!!
//see my 247

249 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:53:41am

re: #229 researchok

Oh please.

You’re the guy who posits that Jews were afforded a middle class, allowed to establish banks, export companies and various industries and allowed entry to universities for example, because Poles were anti semitic.

I said “assimilated Jews,” who were Jews in name only, and only if they were of some use in those social circles. If you are going to reference my comments, do it accurately.

A Jewish orphan could not even be put into a Polish State orphanage in the 1920-30’s. The Jews had to have their own trade unions because they were not allowed in the Polish trade unions. You are confusing a handful of Jews who decided to try go into “hiding” in certain areas of Polish culture and business, not religious Jews who were accepted with open arms.

Jews had to have their own schools, banks, civic organizations and even orphanages, because they were not allowed entrance in the Polish infrastructure.

A famous saying from the 1930’s… “If you are a Catholic Pole, you are simply called a Pole… if you are Jewish… you care called a Jewish-Pole.”

Now.. you’re the one that made the statement “By the time WWII rolled around, Euro anti semitism had begun to decline”

Prove it. That is the most ludicrous statement I have ever heard.

250 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:53:43am

re: #230 Cato the Elder

Idiot.

I do not deny the atrocities committed in the name of God.

You deny that any were ever committed in the name of atheism.

Munchkin.

Millions have been killed in the name of various forms of communism. If you think that’s equivalent to atheists then apparently you think Walter is a communist.

I will however, agree with you that the destruction of the clergy in Russia and Eastern Europe, plus the Buddhists and other groups in China and SE Asia were killed by communists, in the name of atheism. Similar atrocities tend to follow whenever communists take power.

So Ukrainian Famine = Killing in the name of Communism. Religious belief was largely irrelevant.
Destruction of Orthodox clergy = Killing in the name of Atheism, by communists/atheists.

251 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:53:54am

re: #248 Cannadian Club Akbar

FUCK YOU!!
//see my 247

248. Fucking Mandy!!!
/

252 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:54:14am
253 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:54:50am

re: #251 Cannadian Club Akbar

248. Fucking Mandy!!!
/

That didn’t come out correctly!!!

254 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:55:02am
255 Kragar (Antichrist )  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:55:25am

re: #253 Cannadian Club Akbar

That didn’t come out correctly!!!

Thats what she said!

in bed.

256 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:55:35am

re: #241 bratwurst

Had a fantastic travel experience in Gdansk and the Baltic coast about 2 years ago as well. The country has got to be the most underrated destination in Europe.

Hands down true.

Gdansk especially. Lots o history, lots said and lots left unsaid.

Poland’s great curse was her geography. Germany on one side, Russia on the other.

Did you know Poland was once Europe’s’ breadbasket? They grew more wheat than France!

257 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:55:37am
258 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:55:57am
259 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:55:59am

re: #217 MandyManners

Interesting piece from Bernard Lewis.

If you make me upding you again today, I’m going to have to go get drunk.

260 lostlakehiker  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:56:38am

re: #4 Walter L. Newton

This is no different than Christians getting up in arms about “Piss Christ” and other pop art icon that deal with a Christian theme.

Right. Those Christians, always with the axes and the Molotov cocktails.

/back to your regularly scheduled real world

261 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:56:46am

re: #259 Cato the Elder

If you make me upding you again today, I’m going to have to go get drunk.

LOLOLOL

262 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:56:58am

re: #250 McSpiff

Millions have been killed in the name of various forms of communism. If you think that’s equivalent to atheists then apparently you think Walter is a communist.

I will however, agree with you that the destruction of the clergy in Russia and Eastern Europe, plus the Buddhists and other groups in China and SE Asia were killed by communists, in the name of atheism. Similar atrocities tend to follow whenever communists take power.

So Ukrainian Famine = Killing in the name of Communism. Religious belief was largely irrelevant.
Destruction of Orthodox clergy = Killing in the name of Atheism, by communists/atheists.

Now we’re talking.

See? How hard was that?

263 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:56:59am

re: #259 Cato the Elder

If you make me upding you again today, I’m going to have to go get drunk.

I’m with ya. Wait, what?
/

264 Ebetty  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:57:28am

Apparently, Arizona is invading Poland.

Don’t remember who it was this week that posted links to Leary this week, but I’ve been laughing ever since. Brevity is good.

265 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:57:41am
266 Kragar (Antichrist )  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:57:48am

OK, who the fuck thought casting Lee Van Cleef as a ninja would be a good idea? Seriously.

267 Gus  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:57:55am

We have just witnessed a miracle!

Cato updinged Mandy!

Break out the red wine!

/

268 Ojoe  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:58:09am

re: #259 Cato the Elder

If you make me upding you again today, I’m going to have to go get drunk.

Would you use grappa?

I think it the most Roman of distilled spirits.

269 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:58:41am
270 Kragar (Antichrist )  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:58:47am

re: #267 Gus 802

We have just witnessed a miracle!

Cato updinged Mandy!

Break out the red wine!

/

Sign of the end times I believe.

271 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:58:53am

re: #267 Gus 802

We have just witnessed a miracle!

Cato updinged Mandy!

Break out the red wine!

/

I think you know where I stand…

272 albusteve  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:59:44am

re: #194 Racer X

Wheaties was the reason why Michael Jordan was so good.

and the ref’s Jordan Rules

273 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:59:54am

re: #267 Gus 802

We have just witnessed a miracle!

Cato updinged Mandy!

Break out the red wine!

/

Actually I upding her almost as much as I downding her.

I am a non-sectarian dinger.

274 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:00:16pm

re: #240 Cato the Elder

Where am I being dishonest?

You don’t think Lenin, Stalin, and Mao believed in their own atheism and did their deeds in the name of it, and communism, and the perfectibility of man?

I am not juxtaposing them against the demons who did the same in the name of God. I am simply calling bullshit on the bullshit lie that mass murders were never committed in the name of “no god”.

Because it’s bullshit.

Heh.

Those of faith are sooo sensitive…wait, how dare you demean the good name of my atheist beliefs///

275 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:00:28pm
276 Gus  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:00:42pm

re: #271 Cannadian Club Akbar

I think you know where I stand…

Red, white, brown or green.
I don’t care if it’s warm or cold.
As long as it’s got alcohol.

[slide guitar]

/

277 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:01:28pm

re: #262 Cato the Elder

I’m not the one who tried to write the destruction of the Kulaks off as a religious thing.

All I’m sayin is, communism has several key parts. But for this discussion we can break it into two key parts. Economic and religious. The religion of Communism is atheism and the economic theory of communism is &lt.. bunch of stuff written by Marx here ..>

I’ll accept the crimes done in the name of the religious aspect, but I will not accept the economic crimes.

278 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:01:50pm

This place is really fun..sometimes…Heh.

279 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:02:09pm

re: #277 McSpiff

I’m not the one who tried to write the destruction of the Kulaks off as a religious thing.

All I’m sayin is, communism has several key parts. But for this discussion we can break it into two key parts. Economic and religious. The religion of Communism is atheism and the economic theory of communism is &lt.. bunch of stuff written by Marx here ..>

I’ll accept the crimes done in the name of the religious aspect, but I will not accept the economic crimes.

They are inseparable.

280 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:02:19pm

I’m outta here…

281 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:02:39pm

re: #267 Gus 802

We have just witnessed a miracle!

Cato updinged Mandy!

Break out the red wine!

/

Yep…and Ludwig updinged Bagua the other day…i expect to rocket up to heaven any time now…

(wait, you mean the Rapture isn’t anywhere in the Bible? dang.)

282 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:03:15pm

re: #279 Cato the Elder

Fundamentally disagree.

283 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:03:52pm

re: #281 Aceofwhat?

Yep…and Ludwig updinged Bagua the other day…i expect to rocket up to heaven any time now…

(wait, you mean the Rapture isn’t anywhere in the Bible? dang.)

Enjoy our hell, you atheist bastard!!!
///

284 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:04:57pm
285 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:05:31pm

re: #282 McSpiff

Fundamentally disagree.

Fine.

286 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:06:31pm

Mandy ….. are you causing trouble again (I hope)?

287 Olsonist  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:07:40pm

re: #240 Cato the Elder

Where am I being dishonest?

You don’t think Lenin, Stalin, and Mao believed in their own atheism and did their deeds in the name of it, and communism, and the perfectibility of man?

I am not juxtaposing them against the demons who did the same in the name of God. I am simply calling bullshit on the bullshit lie that mass murders were never committed in the name of “no god”.

Because it’s bullshit.

Calling Stalin an Atheist is reductionist. When Stalin saw religion as a competitive political force he crushed it. When he saw it as a useful palliative during WWII, he promoted it.

288 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:08:00pm

re: #282 McSpiff

Fundamentally disagree.

Btw, do you know how hilarious it is that you downdinged #221?

As an atheist, the post offended you?

Lolz. “He insulted my lack of God…”

Just sayin’!!

289 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:08:21pm

re: #287 Olsonist

Calling Stalin an Atheist is reductionist. When Stalin saw religion as a competitive political force he crushed it. When he saw it as a useful palliative during WWII, he promoted it.

Calling you a twit is redundant.

290 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:09:11pm

Me: Is the water for the pool turned on?
Brother: Yes.
Me: No it isn’t.
Brother: I’m sure it is.
Me: No, it isn’t.

Oh, Brother….

291 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:09:44pm
292 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:10:17pm

re: #287 Olsonist

Calling Stalin an Atheist is reductionist. When Stalin saw religion as a competitive political force he crushed it. When he saw it as a useful palliative during WWII, he promoted it.

Someone who uses a religion as a means to an end without any actual faithful tie to it is not suddenly religious as a result. Isn’t it in fact a statement that they do NOT believe in the religion at hand?

293 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:10:23pm

Is this thread a case in point? Has Glen Beck so poisoned the conservative intellectual well that conservatives can’t hold a dialogue or discussion without referencing Hitler, Stalin, and Mao?

Is that a form of luddism itself, being overwhelmingly referential to last century instead of this one and the current issues that face us?

Discuss — I’m out for parts

294 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:10:37pm

re: #288 Aceofwhat?

I downdinged him for misquoting. Do that for everyone, regardless.

295 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:10:48pm

iran wants nukes, but i’m sure they’re just for peaceful purposes …

jpost.com

what could go wrong?

296 Walter L. Newton  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:10:55pm

Well…

This was an interesting session of political and religious revisionism, minimalist recounting of actual history and in general veiled anti-semitism.

I felt like I was talking with Pat Buchanann.

297 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:11:16pm

re: #294 McSpiff

I downdinged him for misquoting. Do that for everyone, regardless.

oh. i must have missed the inaccuracy in there somewhere. dang, my reason was a lot funnier;)

298 Gus  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:12:01pm

Must. Buy. Smokes.

Hasta…

299 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:12:11pm
300 zora  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:12:16pm

re: #260 lostlakehiker

Nine Christian Militia Members Charged With Seditious Conspiracy, Attempted Use Of WMD

tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com

because christian are inherently non-violent?
/

301 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:12:37pm

re: #299 MandyManners

Who? Me? Never. I’m Little Miss Mary Fucking Sunshine.

How does the sunshine feel about that?

302 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:12:47pm
303 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:13:01pm

re: #296 Walter L. Newton

Well…

This was an interesting session of political and religious revisionism, minimalist recounting of actual history and in general veiled anti-semitism.

I felt like I was talking with Pat Buchanann.

wanna pick on someone your own size…?

am i stating your premise correctly if i say that you judge Christianity responsible for creating the environment which allowed the fascists to pursue the Holocaust?

304 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:13:06pm

re: #300 zora

Nine Christian Militia Members Charged With Seditious Conspiracy, Attempted Use Of WMD

[Link: tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com…]

because christian are inherently non-violent?
/

No.

But atheists are.

305 Jimmah  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:13:10pm

re: #138 McSpiff

— “On the Jews and their lies”
Martin Luther

Some people still think that the Reformation fixed all the problems with Christianity re fanaticism, religious violence etc, and that Islam needs one too.

Which is bollocks, of course.

306 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:14:11pm

re: #299 MandyManners

Who? Me? Never. I’m Little Miss Mary Fucking Sunshine.

mmmmmmmkay … that’s you alright!

307 ryannon  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:14:36pm

re: #235 MandyManners

Amusing music break.

[Video]

Good.
re: #236 Cannadian Club Akbar

Better…

[Video]

Best

308 Olsonist  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:14:53pm

re: #292 Aceofwhat?

Someone who uses a religion as a means to an end without any actual faithful tie to it is not suddenly religious as a result. Isn’t it in fact a statement that they do NOT believe in the religion at hand?

Are asking me to distinguish religion and faith? Neither will come out well.

309 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:14:59pm

re: #300 zora

Nine Christian Militia Members Charged With Seditious Conspiracy, Attempted Use Of WMD

[Link: tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com…]

because christian are inherently non-violent?
/

nah. every religion has their crazies. only one is currently in charge of several countries, repressing the rights of millions (especially women), and a danger to millions of lives across the world.

oh, and piss christ was laughable, but not terribly offensive, IMO.

310 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:15:00pm

re: #301 Cato the Elder

How does the sunshine feel about that?

lucky

311 zora  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:15:14pm

re: #304 Cato the Elder

sarcasm or not?

312 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:15:19pm
313 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:15:43pm

re: #311 zora

sarcasm or not?

Default: sarcasm.

314 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:16:15pm

re: #305 Jimmah

Some people still think that the Reformation fixed all the problems with Christianity re fanaticism, religious violence etc, and that Islam needs one too.

Which is bollocks, of course.

sure.

but we got better (before, we were a newt).

still lots of work left to do. of course, isn’t that true of all of us;)

315 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:16:25pm

re: #313 Cato the Elder

Default: sarcasm.

Isn’t that Walter’s schtick?

316 albusteve  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:16:35pm

re: #307 ryannon

Best


[Video]

Mick would be impressed

317 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:16:52pm
318 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:17:06pm

re: #308 Olsonist

Are asking me to distinguish religion and faith? Neither will come out well.

No. I’m asking you to realize that an atheist who manipulates religion to further their ends is no less atheist by dint of said manipulation.

319 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:19:01pm

by the way, if HHoops is lurking, i hit a few good golf balls at the range and a few more bad ones.

can’t keep the damn head still.

sandtrap practice went well, though.

320 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:19:01pm

re: #318 Aceofwhat?

No. I’m asking you to realize that an atheist who manipulates religion to further their ends is no less atheist by dint of said manipulation.

Kind of like how a closeted homosexual who preaches that gays need to be fixed is still a homosexual.

321 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:19:07pm

re: #315 JasonA

Isn’t that Walter’s schtick?

Apparently you think there can be only one.

322 albusteve  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:19:40pm

re: #315 JasonA

Isn’t that Walter’s schtick?

it’s not a schtick…I’ve never used a sarc tag

323 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:19:41pm

re: #320 JasonA

Kind of like how a closeted homosexual who preaches that gays need to be fixed is still a homosexual.

*chuckle*

well done-

324 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:20:13pm

re: #319 Aceofwhat?

by the way, if HHoops is lurking, i hit a few good golf balls at the range and a few more bad ones.

can’t keep the damn head still.

sandtrap practice went well, though.

Put down a coin and stare at it.

325 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:20:13pm
326 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:20:13pm

re: #322 albusteve

it’s not a schtick…I’ve never used a sarc tag

I have.

But I ended up regretting it.

327 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:20:35pm

re: #321 Cato the Elder

Apparently you think there can be only one.

You use sarcasm honestly. Walter uses it to deliberately muddy the waters and derail debate. Two very different things.

328 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:21:02pm

you know what’s kinda weird …. this November the GOP (whether deserving or not) is highly likely to gain considerable power across the country. some on this board will suffer greatly as their heads explode. I will not. So it may be time to try and understand what makes the opposition tick and look for common ground when it exists, rather than bashing everything to the right of center. It’s the best chance for sane folks on the right to have some influence. That’s why I like it here. There are still some sane “right of center” folks on this board with some good things to contribute. And we should do our best to be heard.

329 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:21:59pm
330 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:22:04pm

re: #327 McSpiff

You use sarcasm honestly. Walter uses it to deliberately muddy the waters and derail debate. Two very different things.

I disagree. But then, I would. I’ve been a guest at Walter’s mountain lair, drunk his beer, and played with his dogs.

I’m biased.

331 ryannon  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:22:34pm

re: #249 Walter L. Newton

(SNIP)

A famous saying from the 1930’s… “If you are a Catholic Pole, you are simply called a Pole… if you are Jewish… you care called a Jewish-Pole.”

And if you get it down and boogie, you are called a Pole-Dancer.

(oy vey)

332 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:22:39pm

re: #329 MandyManners

Ya kahlb!

Kelev!

333 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:23:02pm

Muslim cleric calls for ‘Greater Iran’

What could go wrong? Can’t wait till they finish developing their nukes.

334 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:23:17pm

re: #330 Cato the Elder

I disagree. But then, I would. I’ve been a guest at Walter’s mountain lair, drunk his beer, and played with his dogs.

I’m biased.

Not saying I dislike what Walter does. Its very similar to Colbert in my eyes. I just wish everyone else would catch on.

335 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:23:29pm

Meanwhile in Malawi a Gay couple has been arrested for getting married, possible sentence of 14 yrs hard labor, thanks you tolerant American missionaries to Africa for spreading the love…

The pope has said yesterday that Gay Marriage and Abortion are two insidious dangers to society while his church promotes abstinence and condom avoidance in the face of an AIDS epidemic that’s killed tens of thousands in Africa. Good ol’ Catholic love and tolerance….

336 Jimmah  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:23:51pm

re: #314 Aceofwhat?

sure.

but we got better (before, we were a newt).

still lots of work left to do. of course, isn’t that true of all of us;)

The Reformation was really just a schism. Islam already has a few of those. It was the confrontation/engagement with enlightenment ideas that did most of the work of de-fanging Christianity, and will do/is doing the same for Islam.

337 Olsonist  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:24:02pm

re: #318 Aceofwhat?

No. I’m asking you to realize that an atheist who manipulates religion to further their ends is no less atheist by dint of said manipulation.

I can agree with that. Is a religionist who manipulates religion to further their ends no less atheist by dint of said manipulation?

338 albusteve  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:25:11pm

re: #326 Cato the Elder

I have.

But I ended up regretting it.

funny, I’ve never misunderstood you without one, or Walter for that matter

339 lostlakehiker  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:26:15pm

re: #300 zora

Nine Christian Militia Members Charged With Seditious Conspiracy, Attempted Use Of WMD

[Link: tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com…]

because christian are inherently non-violent?
/

You must be joking. This “Christian” militia is first of all not in any real sense Christian. Second, they certainly weren’t in a tizzy about “Piss Christ” or any other art work. Third, they aren’t part of a long established pattern and practice of terrorism, arson, and murder. There haven’t been hundreds of car bombs, suicide bombings, attacks on skyscrapers, subways, airplanes, places of worship, hotels, and on and on, conducted by this group and its nonexistent allied cells.

There is no list of people marked for death, publicly proclaimed and vetted by ranking clerics in Rome.

So on the one hand, we have exhibit A, a conspiracy of nine people, not recruited in a church, not affiliated with any church except one of their own devising if that, and with no terrorist achievements whatsoever. And on the other hand, we have exhibits B through Z, AA through ZZ, AAA through XQR. A very widespread movement, with backing from high in clerical circles, with access to military ordnance, with friends in the intelligence services of various governments, and with all too many terrorist achievements.

And this, in your mind, is an equivalence.

340 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:26:18pm

re: #338 albusteve

funny, I’ve never misunderstood you without one, or Walter for that matter

That’s because you’re our sock!

341 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:26:47pm

re: #339 lostlakehiker

No true Scotsman…

342 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:28:25pm

Yesterday the FBI indicted two more people on hate crimes who are Christians for burning a Black Church the day after President Obama was elected. Can ya feeeeeel the love?

343 Olsonist  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:28:40pm

re: #339 lostlakehiker

No True Scotsman.

344 zora  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:29:07pm

re: #339 lostlakehiker

equivalency was not my point. these people are just as christian as the radical islamist are muslim.

345 albusteve  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:29:11pm

re: #340 Cato the Elder

That’s because you’re our sock!

I knew something was wrong with me

346 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:29:20pm
347 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:29:31pm

Oh for fuck’s sake. We have a True Scotsman here on the blog. Could we please ask him before chucking that tired old meme around?

348 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:29:45pm

re: #336 Jimmah

The Reformation was really just a schism. Islam already has a few of those. It was the confrontation/engagement with enlightenment ideas that did most of the work of de-fanging Christianity, and will do/is doing the same for Islam.

agree…the reason i’d still list the Reformation as a contribution is that it was symbolic of a new willingness to air some fundamental objections. if you can’t object to perceived runaway hypocrisy, you can’t initiate effective change.

349 zora  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:30:09pm

re: #339 lostlakehiker

the only reason they didn’t kill police officers was that they were dumbasses. but still christian.

350 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:30:51pm

re: #336 Jimmah

The Reformation was really just a schism. Islam already has a few of those. It was the confrontation/engagement with enlightenment ideas that did most of the work of de-fanging Christianity, and will do/is doing the same for Islam.

Enlightenment, as a category and a historical label, is overrated.

351 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:30:58pm

Meanwhile the Gay Hating Phelps Klan hate church has found strange solidarity in hating gays with the Church in FL most liked by the Shrieking Harpy and Robert Spencer — because they not only hate gays, they hate Islam and are willing to make an underage teenage girl a prop on the national level for their hate.

352 Jimmah  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:31:10pm

Of course, we mustn’t forget the serenity that lies at the core of all religions.

353 Virginia Plain  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:31:54pm

re: #300 zora

Nine Christian Militia Members Charged With Seditious Conspiracy, Attempted Use Of WMD

[Link: tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com…]

because christian are inherently non-violent?
/

I noticed that the article does not call them terrorists, yet Faizal Shezad was called one even though he failed. I bet if they were brown and bearded they would be referred to as terrorists instead of just “militia members”.

354 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:32:00pm

re: #337 Olsonist

I can agree with that. Is a religionist who manipulates religion to further their ends no less atheist by dint of said manipulation?

exactly. i fully agree. a manipulative televangelist is no more Christian than you are!

355 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:32:12pm

re: #352 Jimmah

Of course, we mustn’t forget the serenity that lies at the core of all religions.

I prefer the movie.

356 bosforus  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:32:19pm

By the time it took someone to run towards me from the crowd to my pulpit I probably would have been ready to defend myself.

357 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:32:46pm
358 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:33:05pm

re: #354 Aceofwhat?

No true Scotsman.

/can I claim that Stalin and Mao “weren’t true atheists? in reply?

359 Virginia Plain  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:33:39pm

LGF on the iPad is kind of slow.

360 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:33:50pm

re: #358 Thanos

No true Scotsman.

/can I claim that Stalin and Mao “weren’t true atheists? in reply?

That position has already been taken here. Find another.

361 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:33:59pm
362 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:34:15pm

re: #355 Cato the Elder

I prefer the movie.

363 Jimmah  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:34:16pm

re: #347 Cato the Elder

Oh for fuck’s sake. We have a True Scotsman here on the blog. Could we please ask him before chucking that tired old meme around?

Heh. I’ve been told I’m no true Scotsman before. I put sugar on my porridge for starters.

But I think Thanos called it right.

364 wrenchwench  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:35:14pm

re: #359 Virginia Plain

LGF on the iPad is kind of slow.

I always was too.

Wait, what?

365 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:35:38pm

re: #361 MandyManners

Kiss me, you fool!

Arafuck and Saddam wear burning keffiyehs in Hell.

366 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:36:12pm

re: #352 Jimmah

Of course, we mustn’t forget the serenity that lies at the core of all religions.

yes, let us look to atheists to bring the peace…

367 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:36:15pm

Meanwhile: Dying for fossil fuels

Russian police have cracked down on a protest in the western Siberian mining town of Mezhdurechensk by arresting 28 demonstrators.

The protesters had blocked a railroad in the town, where 66 people died and 24 went missing on May 8 because of two explosions in the Raspadskaya coal mine.

“Negotiations with regional government officials and police led to nothing. Soon afterwards, riot police began removing people from the railway. Rocks and bottles were thrown at the police,” Russia’s investigative committee said in a statement.

368 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:36:47pm

re: #366 Aceofwhat?

feh, bah… Stalin was not a tr…

///

369 Jimmah  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:36:59pm

re: #348 Aceofwhat?

agree…the reason i’d still list the Reformation as a contribution is that it was symbolic of a new willingness to air some fundamental objections. if you can’t object to perceived runaway hypocrisy, you can’t initiate effective change.

I’d agree to that extent.

370 Olsonist  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:36:59pm

re: #363 Jimmah

Just checking Jimmah, but do you sail?

371 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:37:37pm

I know this was on the Hannity show, but here’s a youtube clip of a recent exchange between a Muslim and David Horowitz:

It looks like the full exchange—no editing. This is what we’re dealing with. Listen to the end—shocking really how willingly this extremist admits to agreeing with the goal of killing all Jews.

372 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:37:49pm

ahhh crap… I’ve still got parts to pick up… back later

373 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:37:52pm

re: #358 Thanos

No true Scotsman.

/can I claim that Stalin and Mao “weren’t true atheists? in reply?

no, you’re missing the point. scroll upthread, read Olsonist.

context is your friend. or at least, it ought to be…

374 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:38:13pm

Since the conversation has turned to Radical (Islam/Christians/Atheists/etc)…..
AG Eric Holder refuses to say “Radical Islam”

In the early days of my time here at LGF I would have slammed Holder. However, now it seems to me to be a pointless stunt to badger him into using politically charged terminology. Yes, radical Islam is a problem but it’s not the only problem. There are many different motivations. Bin Laden might be more motivated by a radical version of Islam but Mohammed Atta certainly wasn’t devout. His motivation was most likely more political. The Branch Dividians or the Phelps Clan could be labeled “radical Christians” but that really doesn’t address their specific issues.

375 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:38:27pm
376 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:38:27pm

re: #369 Jimmah

I’d agree to that extent.

look at us…hug?

377 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:38:32pm

re: #371 BryanS

I know this was on the Hannity show, but here’s a youtube clip of a recent exchange between a Muslim and David Horowitz:

It looks like the full exchange—no editing. This is what we’re dealing with. Listen to the end—shocking really how willingly this extremist admits to agreeing with the goal of killing all Jews.

You may find it shocking.

I find it in the Koran.

378 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:38:47pm

re: #366 Aceofwhat?

yes, let us look to atheists to bring the peace…

Here is the real image of peace.

379 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:41:14pm

re: #377 Cato the Elder

You may find it shocking.

I find it in the Koran.

It is in fact in there as well. Still, to see that belief calmly and sincerely held gives me chills.

380 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:41:56pm

re: #378 BryanS

Here is the real image of peace.

No, it’s over here.

381 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:42:11pm
382 lostlakehiker  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:42:37pm

re: #328 _RememberTonyC

you know what’s kinda weird … this November the GOP (whether deserving or not) is highly likely to gain considerable power across the country. some on this board will suffer greatly as their heads explode. I will not. So it may be time to try and understand what makes the opposition tick and look for common ground when it exists, rather than bashing everything to the right of center. It’s the best chance for sane folks on the right to have some influence. That’s why I like it here. There are still some sane “right of center” folks on this board with some good things to contribute. And we should do our best to be heard.

If you are looking for clues to what makes the “opposition” tick, a good place to look would be in the budget figures for the U.S., Greece, Italy, and Britain. In those for California and Illinois and New York.

Cities are going bankrupt in CA. In Illinois, the state is stiffing most of its creditors, and is in arrears some $6 billion. There is little reason to think the state means to ever pay up. It now must pay cash on delivery for ammo for its state police, its credit rating is so bad.

Greece is in chaos because the people think that the government is cheating them of their rights. And what rights might those be? The right to consumption without production. Governments are perfectly capable of taking production from the many to supply the consumption needs of the few. But in Greece, the government has its ass in a crack because the few are responsible for providing the consumption needs of the many. Production has sagged and the government, out of money and out of the goods that money buys, finds itself unable to deliver the goods to the many.

Deficit spending, already run riot at the end of the Bush administration, has gone into seemingly permanent overdrive. China is lecturing us on fiscal responsibility.

The opposition sees in this a danger. Might it not come to pass that the U.S. too runs out of purchasing power? What happens if we go, fistfuls of hundred-dollar bills in hand, to the world oil market and find ourselves told that gold will be quite acceptable, but dollars do not qualify as a reserve currency? What happens if the trend toward more government workers, many in make-work jobs that contribute little or nothing to the supply of real goods, and a smaller private sector, reaches the point that shortages become endemic? California has a large number of government ex-workers who enjoy good health, who, in their fifties, have decades of happy retirement ahead of them, all at pensions comparable to their best wages. Is this sustainable?

There is no big economic Daddy Warbucks to whom the U.S. can turn for economic relief if we get ourselves into Greece’s predicament.

Consumption must come out of production. The physical universe has been good to us; we have matter and energy in abundance. But beyond that, we must work to fashion it into forms that serve our own needs. If we do not do this work, the needs will not be met. Temporary and local departures from this iron law are just that: temporary and local.

383 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:43:05pm

re: #374 Killgore Trout

Since the conversation has turned to Radical (Islam/Christians/Atheists/etc)…
AG Eric Holder refuses to say “Radical Islam”

In the early days of my time here at LGF I would have slammed Holder. However, now it seems to me to be a pointless stunt to badger him into using politically charged terminology. Yes, radical Islam is a problem but it’s not the only problem. There are many different motivations. Bin Laden might be more motivated by a radical version of Islam but Mohammed Atta certainly wasn’t devout. His motivation was most likely more political. The Branch Dividians or the Phelps Clan could be labeled “radical Christians” but that really doesn’t address their specific issues.

This is a great post. Sums up a lot of what I was attempting to get across in this thread, but failed to do so.

384 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:43:50pm

re: #374 Killgore Trout

Since the conversation has turned to Radical (Islam/Christians/Atheists/etc)…
AG Eric Holder refuses to say “Radical Islam”

In the early days of my time here at LGF I would have slammed Holder. However, now it seems to me to be a pointless stunt to badger him into using politically charged terminology. Yes, radical Islam is a problem but it’s not the only problem. There are many different motivations. Bin Laden might be more motivated by a radical version of Islam but Mohammed Atta certainly wasn’t devout. His motivation was most likely more political. The Branch Dividians or the Phelps Clan could be labeled “radical Christians” but that really doesn’t address their specific issues.

can we keep saying it until someone can draw the prophet without packing heat? that’s about my only remaining sticking point…i feel like anyone who doesn’t have a basic grasp of the current situation isn’t going to get it via terminology…

385 Jimmah  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:43:54pm

re: #350 Cato the Elder

Enlightenment, as a category and a historical label, is overrated.

I disagree. I don’t think I’d like to live in a world that didn’t have the benefit of those ideas and ideals. Looking around the world at the places that have been least touched by it confirms that.

386 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:43:59pm

re: #380 Cato the Elder

No, it’s over here.

LOL…love the lampshade.

387 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:44:30pm

re: #378 BryanS

Here is the real image of peace.

as a christian, i find that absolutely hilarious.

LMAO…

388 lostlakehiker  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:45:49pm

re: #344 zora

equivalency was not my point. these people are just as christian as the radical islamist are muslim.

Rubbish. This militia does not have clerics at the highest level justifying its activities. Whether a group counts as a member of a larger group must be determined not by what the group itself says, but by whether the larger group acknowledges the small group as part of its own.

You would not say that U.S. soldiers did thus and so, just because the men who did it claimed to be U.S. soldiers, despite not being enrolled in the ranks, not having regulation uniforms, and not having a history of attending U.S. military training. Would you? Same story here.

389 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:45:50pm
390 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:46:43pm

re: #385 Jimmah

I disagree. I don’t think I’d like to live in a world that didn’t have the benefit of those ideas and ideals. Looking around the world at the places that have been least touched by it confirms that.

Modern mass murder is the legitimate child of the “Enlightenment”. One of many, but still no bastard.

391 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:47:05pm

re: #382 lostlakehiker

If you are looking for clues to what makes the “opposition” tick, a good place to look would be in the budget figures for the U.S., Greece, Italy, and Britain. In those for California and Illinois and New York.

Cities are going bankrupt in CA. In Illinois, the state is stiffing most of its creditors, and is in arrears some $6 billion. There is little reason to think the state means to ever pay up. It now must pay cash on delivery for ammo for its state police, its credit rating is so bad.

Greece is in chaos because the people think that the government is cheating them of their rights. And what rights might those be? The right to consumption without production. Governments are perfectly capable of taking production from the many to supply the consumption needs of the few. But in Greece, the government has its ass in a crack because the few are responsible for providing the consumption needs of the many. Production has sagged and the government, out of money and out of the goods that money buys, finds itself unable to deliver the goods to the many.

Deficit spending, already run riot at the end of the Bush administration, has gone into seemingly permanent overdrive. China is lecturing us on fiscal responsibility.

The opposition sees in this a danger. Might it not come to pass that the U.S. too runs out of purchasing power? What happens if we go, fistfuls of hundred-dollar bills in hand, to the world oil market and find ourselves told that gold will be quite acceptable, but dollars do not qualify as a reserve currency? What happens if the trend toward more government workers, many in make-work jobs that contribute little or nothing to the supply of real goods, and a smaller private sector, reaches the point that shortages become endemic? California has a large number of government ex-workers who enjoy good health, who, in their fifties, have decades of happy retirement ahead of them, all at pensions comparable to their best wages. Is this sustainable?

There is no big economic Daddy Warbucks to whom the U.S. can turn for economic relief if we get ourselves into Greece’s predicament.

Consumption must come out of production. The physical universe has been good to us; we have matter and energy in abundance. But beyond that, we must work to fashion it into forms that serve our own needs. If we do not do this work, the needs will not be met. Temporary and local departures from this iron law are just that: temporary and local.


good post …

392 bosforus  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:47:23pm

re: #380 Cato the Elder

No, it’s over here.

Excuse me.

393 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:48:19pm

re: #366 Aceofwhat?

yes, let us look to atheists to bring the peace…

Yawn. That “correlation is not causation” is something I learned in 5th grade (in Texas, no less).

Present to me a single example from history of any individual or government saying anything like, “Because we believe in no gods, we hereby embark upon this great crusade in the name of atheism.” Show me a murderous dictator who claimed his authority derived from his certainty that deities do not exist.

394 ryannon  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:48:38pm

re: #380 Cato the Elder

No, it’s over here.

No, I’m sorry, but it’s here

395 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:48:46pm

re: #384 Aceofwhat?

can we keep saying it until someone can draw the prophet without packing heat?

You can if you want but terminology isn’t going to solve the problem. It’s not just religious: It’s political, cultural, personal, historical, etc. Use of the term “Radical Islam” seems to be more of a way to implicate the entire religion rather than addressing the the real issue behind terrorism. I do firmly believe that Islamic culture has serious problems in dealing with the modern world but radical Islam is one one piece of the puzzle.

396 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:49:29pm
397 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:50:05pm

One lone voice at Michelle Malkin’s site objects to using Alex Jones as a source….

On May 15th, 2010 at 1:59 pm, cubbiegal said:

Since when the Hades did truther, anti-Semite, conspiracy theorist, ALEX JONES become a legitimate source?
While the movie may well be encouraging a race war I’m certain that there are other sources out there that aren’t tainted with the stain of Jones and his merry band of scumbags.
A great site like this has no business giving him traffic!

398 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:50:56pm
399 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:51:04pm

re: #384 Aceofwhat?

can we keep saying it until someone can draw the prophet without packing heat? that’s about my only remaining sticking point…i feel like anyone who doesn’t have a basic grasp of the current situation isn’t going to get it via terminology…

I actually talked about this with my Muslim friends a fair amount (over beers ironically). I call these guys terrorists, camel f****s, etc. Believe me, not the type to get offended. Some had wives back home but white girlfriends in Canada. Not exactly devote.

But they honestly find the Mohamed drawings offense and were totally unable to really articulate why. It was bizarre. So I’ll agree, once we can draw the prophet, that will mean a huge cultural shift has taken place.

400 Jimmah  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:51:24pm

re: #366 Aceofwhat?

yes, let us look to atheists to bring the peace…

Well, if someone want’s to know what it is in the core teachings of the various religions (particularly the abrahamic ones) that could lead to massive problems, there is no shortage of material. Can you do the same with atheism?

Yes, atheists can be stinkers like anyone else. But I am not aware of anything in ‘atheism’ that could be considered as ‘driving’ Stalin’s atrocities.

401 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:51:37pm

re: #357 MandyManners

Jimmy Carter calls Simon Wiesenthal Center a liar.

jimmy carter and pat buchanan are similar in so many ways ….

402 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:51:41pm
403 zora  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:51:54pm

re: #388 lostlakehiker

these people don’t need marching orders from clerics or anyone else to be dangerous. guess what. their bullets and bombs can still kill innocents. their victims would be no less dead in jesus name than in allahs name. that is my point.

404 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:52:02pm
405 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:52:54pm

re: #404 MandyManners

Coupla’ Jew-hating bastards!


bingo …. two loathsome scumbags

406 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:52:59pm

More from Thunderfoot on his death threat:

407 _RememberTonyC  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:53:12pm

out for now …… BBL

408 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:53:31pm

re: #339 lostlakehiker

You must be joking. This “Christian” militia is first of all not in any real sense Christian.

Yes, they very much were an explicitly Christian militia. Right on the homepage of the Hutaree militia was the slogan, “Preparing for the End Times battles to keep the testimony of Jesus Christ alive.” And the logo on their flag was a cross.

Sorry, this IS a Christian group.

409 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:53:54pm
410 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:54:19pm
411 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:54:25pm

Antoine Dufour

412 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:54:40pm

re: #393 negativ

Yawn. That “correlation is not causation” is something I learned in 5th grade (in Texas, no less).

Present to me a single example from history of any individual or government saying anything like, “Because we believe in no gods, we hereby embark upon this great crusade in the name of atheism.” Show me a murderous dictator who claimed his authority derived from his certainty that deities do not exist.

this isn’t a PDF or a CDF…we can keep the standard deviations on the sidelines for now.

since murderous dictators do not need religion in order to be murderous dictators, it must be the case that religion is not necessarily the final ingredient in the evil alchemist’s brew.

so what is the final ingredient? and why does it surface so rarely in these conversations?

413 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:55:59pm

re: #395 Killgore Trout

You can if you want but terminology isn’t going to solve the problem. It’s not just religious: It’s political, cultural, personal, historical, etc. Use of the term “Radical Islam” seems to be more of a way to implicate the entire religion rather than addressing the the real issue behind terrorism. I do firmly believe that Islamic culture has serious problems in dealing with the modern world but radical Islam is one one piece of the puzzle.

eh, no worries…i was being a little flippant. when someone is oversensitive, i like to desensitize them through repeated prodding. sure, it’s a character flaw…but it’s fun/

414 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:59:08pm

re: #394 ryannon

No, I’m sorry, but it’s here

Nope.

415 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 12:59:26pm

re: #408 Charles

I agree completely. Acknowledging, isolating, and casting them out is what we need to do…just as we ask Muslims to vociferously acknowledge and then boot the evil from their midst.

They are a Christian group. I hereby shove my boot up their ass. I wish to mingle with atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Christians, etc…but not these people.

416 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:00:04pm

re: #403 zora

these people don’t need marching orders from clerics or anyone else to be dangerous. guess what. their bullets and bombs can still kill innocents. their victims would be no less dead in jesus name than in allahs name. that is my point.

i agree with that.

417 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:00:21pm

re: #412 Aceofwhat?

this isn’t a PDF or a CDF…we can keep the standard deviations on the sidelines for now.

since murderous dictators do not need religion in order to be murderous dictators, it must be the case that religion is not necessarily the final ingredient in the evil alchemist’s brew.

so what is the final ingredient? and why does it surface so rarely in these conversations?

Bingo. Why do some people desire total, sadistic power over millions? I think religion or lack thereof is just a tool for these people. If they can corrupt the power structures of a religion, they’ll do so. If they can’t they sweep it away and replace it with something else.

Clearly none actually believe the teachings of the Bible, or I’d argue the Koran or even Marx. Pretty hard to say you support charity when you have millions starving, pretty hard to say you’re the guardian of the proletariat when millions are dying around you.

If that’s a case of No True Scotsman, so be it.

418 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:01:31pm

re: #415 Aceofwhat?

I agree completely. Acknowledging, isolating, and casting them out is what we need to do…just as we ask Muslims to vociferously acknowledge and then boot the evil from their midst.

They are a Christian group. I hereby shove my boot up their ass. I wish to mingle with atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Christians, etc…but not these people.

Good luck with the plea to Muslims.

419 Renaissance_Man  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:06:37pm

re: #382 lostlakehiker

If you are looking for clues to what makes the “opposition” tick, a good place to look would be in the budget figures for the U.S., Greece, Italy, and Britain. In those for California and Illinois and New York.

Your post is a very good one, but I must disagree with your initial premise.

Everything you say about the situation with overspending and financial concerns is true. However, what isn’t true is that the opposition that gets voted in in November has these concerns as their central ideals, and will do something to alleviate them.

I see no reason to believe that the shift in power in November, which will result in reduced Democrat majorities and possibly a change in hands of the House, will in some way represent the return of fiscal sanity. Firstly, after thirty years or more of financial misadventure at the hands of both parties, there’s no reason to believe that anything will change now. The system that encourages, indeed mandates, such massive deficit spending has not changed a whit - why would there be any change in the result?

Secondly, the rhetoric that is at the heart of this anti-incumbent groundswell pays nothing more than lip service to the idea of fiscal responsibility. They mouth the words without understanding them. Much, indeed most, of their motivation is blind, unreasoning hatred and ginned-up fear of Democrats and liberals, without any real connection to policies or current events. It stands to reason that if there is a significant change in power, it will be a shift towards those who are most representative of this rhetoric. And there has been virtually nothing of any substance, especially fiscal substance, in their talking points. In fact, there has been extreme fiscal stupidity and a blind, almost wilful, disregard for the facts.

There will be an ‘opposition’ to deal with next year, as you suggest. But it won’t be one that has anything to do with the fiscal responsibility you advocate for. We already know what makes them tick, and it isn’t financial responsibility. And it definitely won’t be reasonable conservatives, like the ones we know here, that will make up this opposition.

420 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:06:43pm
421 ryannon  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:07:05pm

re: #414 Cato the Elder

Nope.

Wolfman Jack?

422 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:08:04pm

utoh — what started as an illegal attempt to win a basketball league championship with a Man posing as a boy has taken a real ugly turn

cbsnews.com

423 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:08:45pm

re: #418 Cato the Elder

Good luck with the plea to Muslims.

Yeah. Gotta start somewhere.

Which is also why i like needling them. Step #1 for muslims is to realize that if you personally need to offend God’s honor…you diminish God. How powerful can He be if He needs to be “avenged”?

424 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:10:17pm

re: #421 ryannon

Wolfman Jack?

The Green Man.

425 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:10:23pm

re: #423 Aceofwhat?

Pretty sure you meant “defend,” no?

426 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:11:16pm

re: #417 McSpiff

Bingo. Why do some people desire total, sadistic power over millions? I think religion or lack thereof is just a tool for these people. If they can corrupt the power structures of a religion, they’ll do so. If they can’t they sweep it away and replace it with something else.

Clearly none actually believe the teachings of the Bible, or I’d argue the Koran or even Marx. Pretty hard to say you support charity when you have millions starving, pretty hard to say you’re the guardian of the proletariat when millions are dying around you.

If that’s a case of No True Scotsman, so be it.

Bingo right back atcha.

And NTS is often taken too far. I’m white…we can argue that i’m not a true Native American without running afoul of NTS.

If you don’t fit the basic description, maybe you really aren’t a Scot…

427 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:11:49pm

re: #425 JasonA

Pretty sure you meant “defend,” no?

whoopsie.

thanks.

dang wife wants me to “talk”

;)

428 Aceofwhat?  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:12:45pm

bbl all…thanks for the debates…

429 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:13:00pm

Christians issuing death threats

430 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:13:52pm

Back to the topic of this thread:

Free speech.

431 Jimmah  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:13:57pm

re: #417 McSpiff

Bingo. Why do some people desire total, sadistic power over millions? I think religion or lack thereof is just a tool for these people. If they can corrupt the power structures of a religion, they’ll do so. If they can’t they sweep it away and replace it with something else.

Clearly none actually believe the teachings of the Bible, or I’d argue the Koran or even Marx. Pretty hard to say you support charity when you have millions starving, pretty hard to say you’re the guardian of the proletariat when millions are dying around you.

If that’s a case of No True Scotsman, so be it.

It is a case of No True Scotsman. No believer places all the teachings in their religion on an equal basis. To do so would be to fall into many contradictions, for one thing. People ‘prioritise’ those teachings according to their own wonts. This does not mean they are not believers.

Religion divides humanity into the good and the bad, the favoured and unfavoured, the promised and the cursed. “God is on our side” is in my opinion the root of all religious evil (or a great deal of it anyway).

“God is not good, he is merely on our side”

432 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:14:20pm

Found the parts needed in the basement woohooo!

433 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:14:24pm

re: #398 MandyManners

local TV news shows are second only to city council meetings when it comes to cheap entertainment at the expense of others.

434 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:15:32pm

re: #431 Jimmah

If there is a God I truly believe that he’s just fuckin’ with us.

435 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:15:38pm

re: #431 Jimmah

Religion divides humanity into the good and the bad, the favoured and unfavoured, the promised and the cursed.

So do atheists, but good luck getting them to own it.

436 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:16:41pm

re: #423 Aceofwhat?

I understand very little of the Muslim mindset. But from my discussions part of the anger is basically “we’d never do that to you guys! Why are you doing it to us?” A big part of it is just having no concept of a secular society.

That’s what needs to be drilled home. The West isn’t christian. It’s a secular society inhabited by Christians, Atheists, Hindus, etc. And if Muslims want to play by the same rules, we’d love to have them. Some do of course. But not enough, and certainly not all.

The ones that truly embrace the West tend to hide it from their families back home I find. Which is not helpful at all.

437 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:17:40pm

re: #435 Cato the Elder

So do atheists, but good luck getting them to own it.

Do you make lists of groups you can make sweeping generalizations about before you post, or does it just come naturally to you?

438 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:17:53pm

re: #399 McSpiff

I actually talked about this with my Muslim friends a fair amount (over beers ironically). I call these guys terrorists, camel f***s, etc. Believe me, not the type to get offended. Some had wives back home but white girlfriends in Canada. Not exactly devote.

But they honestly find the Mohamed drawings offense and were totally unable to really articulate why. It was bizarre. So I’ll agree, once we can draw the prophet, that will mean a huge cultural shift has taken place.

I don’t think it’s that bizarre. Seeing someone break a cultural taboo of yours, for no reason except to piss you (or the homicidal crazies of your faith) off is offensive.

I don’t know if there’s ready solution to that, but to suggest that Muslims need a cultural shift that will enable nonviolent, Muslims-on-the-street not to be offended by such seems off the point to me.

439 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:18:30pm

re: #435 Cato the Elder

So do atheists, but good luck getting them to own it.

Soo… if we’re going to be tribalistic we may as well be religious about it?

440 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:19:40pm

re: #437 McSpiff

Do you make lists of groups you can make sweeping generalizations about before you post, or does it just come naturally to you?

I did not say “all atheists”.

441 ryannon  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:20:29pm

re: #424 Cato the Elder

The Green Man.

The fusion of the Occident and the Orient:

the-green-man.net

442 Virginia Plain  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:20:43pm

re: #429 Thanos

And the president of the university actually gave tickets to people so that they could disrupt the play? Unbelievable.

443 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:20:50pm

re: #438 SanFranciscoZionist

I don’t think it’s that bizarre. Seeing someone break a cultural taboo of yours, for no reason except to piss you (or the homicidal crazies of your faith) off is offensive.

I don’t know if there’s ready solution to that, but to suggest that Muslims need a cultural shift that will enable nonviolent, Muslims-on-the-street not to be offended by such seems off the point to me.

Then I guess we’re bound for a culture war at some point. Because being offended is a huge part of Western life.

444 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:21:04pm

re: #440 Cato the Elder

I did not say “all atheists”.

Nor did you say some.

445 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:21:17pm

re: #429 Thanos

Christians issuing death threats


[Video]

No, here are Christians issuing death threats:
Americans’ Role Seen in Uganda Anti-Gay Push

Be gay, be dead.

446 What, me worry?  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:21:52pm

re: #429 Thanos

Christians issuing death threats

[Video]

What was so offensive about the play, do you know?

447 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:21:54pm

re: #444 McSpiff

Nor did you say some.

Fool. You took no umbrage at Jimmah’s sweeping generalization about religion.

448 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:22:51pm

Okay, I just had two fortune cookies with identical fortunes in them. Do I get a refund?

449 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:23:10pm

re: #443 McSpiff

Then I guess we’re bound for a culture war at some point. Because being offended is a huge part of Western life.

I don’t assume that ‘being offended’ means ‘acting out violently’. Look at the examples people have given, of the Serrano piece and such. Just because people are offended, doesn’t mean they react with violence.

450 ryannon  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:23:23pm

re: #424 Cato the Elder

The Green Man.

Interesting

451 zora  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:23:40pm

re: #448 JasonA

that’s just proof that it must be true.
/

452 Renaissance_Man  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:24:15pm

re: #445 JasonA

No, here are Christians issuing death threats:
Americans’ Role Seen in Uganda Anti-Gay Push

Be gay, be dead.

This just irritates me. We are at the point in history where, overall, religion is at its most tolerant, open-minded, and evolved.

Why, of all the different versions of Christianity we now have, do people decide to push, and to accept, the most hateful, vicious, and psychotic version?

453 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:24:18pm

re: #450 ryannon

Interesting

If He came to rule us, there would be peas.

454 BryanS  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:24:29pm

re: #448 JasonA

Okay, I just had two fortune cookies with identical fortunes in them. Do I get a refund?

That just proves they were right.

455 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:25:55pm

re: #452 Renaissance_Man

This just irritates me. We are at the point in history where, overall, religion is at its most tolerant, open-minded, and evolved.

Why, of all the different versions of Christianity we now have, do people decide to push, and to accept, the most hateful, vicious, and psychotic version?

There’s not much power to be had out of peaceful, rational and egalitarian faiths.

456 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:26:02pm

re: #449 SanFranciscoZionist

I don’t assume that ‘being offended’ means ‘acting out violently’. Look at the examples people have given, of the Serrano piece and such. Just because people are offended, doesn’t mean they react with violence.

Maybe I didn’t make it clear earlier. I accept that I will see things in my life that will deeply offend me, possibly my deepest held views. I don’t like it, but I accept it. This concept seemed almost totally alien. The only response I really got is that they’d never do that to an image of Jesus.

457 zora  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:26:34pm

re: #452 Renaissance_Man

it makes them feel righteous. go figure.

458 ryannon  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:26:46pm

re: #448 JasonA

Okay, I just had two fortune cookies with identical fortunes in them. Do I get a refund?

No, you get to go through whatever was written on them twice.

I hope it was good news.

459 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:27:15pm

re: #446 marjoriemoon

What was so offensive about the play, do you know?

I think they were offended by the jokes about Jesus? It looked to me like he was attacking several social and cultural taboos.

460 zora  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:28:20pm

i am a christian and know many christians that feel quite comfortable with bigotry toward gays. it’s bible supported bigotry in their opinion.

461 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:29:13pm

re: #456 McSpiff

Maybe I didn’t make it clear earlier. I accept that I will see things in my life that will deeply offend me, possibly my deepest held views. I don’t like it, but I accept it. This concept seemed almost totally alien. The only response I really got is that they’d never do that to an image of Jesus.

They seem pretty rational to me. They were upset, and their feelings were hurt, but they didn’t harm anyone over it, and told you how they felt over some beer.

I would say that’s positively enlightened. If we can get everyone there, we’ll be golden. I mean, not necessarily the beer, but you get my drift.

462 What, me worry?  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:29:21pm

re: #449 SanFranciscoZionist

I don’t assume that ‘being offended’ means ‘acting out violently’. Look at the examples people have given, of the Serrano piece and such. Just because people are offended, doesn’t mean they react with violence.

It’s cool not to have any decorum or respect for your fellow human. I blame reality TV. Actually, it probably started with Jerry Springer. Yep. Jerry Springer is the anti-Christ.

463 ryannon  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:29:22pm

re: #453 Cato the Elder

If He came to rule us, there would be peas.

You’re just being corny again. Lettuce alone with that already: we don’t need things going totally to seed around here.

464 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:29:28pm

re: #435 Cato the Elder

So do atheists, but good luck getting them to own it.

Hi. I’m an atheist. I believe that people whose actions increase the amount of suffering in the world are ‘bad’, and that people who strive to alleviate suffering, or at least take care not to make bad situations worse are ‘good’.

I hereby declare ‘ownership’ of this idea.

Is that what you’re after?

465 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:29:29pm

re: #458 ryannon

I hope it was good news.

“You will always be surrounded by true friends.”

466 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:29:52pm

re: #447 Cato the Elder

Fool. You took no umbrage at Jimmah’s sweeping generalization about religion.

Why should I? I’m assuming the religious here have no problem speaking for themselves. I expect the atheists here to do the same. Since I am the latter, I objected to your comment.

And can you at least vary the insults somewhat? Fool is very blasé.

467 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:30:09pm

ZomgitsCriss on Feminism and Sex….

468 ryannon  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:30:31pm

re: #465 JasonA

“You will always be surrounded by true friends.”

I wouldn’t ask for my money back if I were you.

469 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:30:37pm

re: #467 Thanos

ZomgitsCriss on Feminism and Sex…

[Video]

Is she for them or against them?

470 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:31:07pm

re: #469 SanFranciscoZionist

Still watching… :)

471 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:31:48pm

re: #461 SanFranciscoZionist

They seem pretty rational to me. They were upset, and their feelings were hurt, but they didn’t harm anyone over it, and told you how they felt over some beer.

I would say that’s positively enlightened. If we can get everyone there, we’ll be golden. I mean, not necessarily the beer, but you get my drift.

Fair enough. Guess I’m just desensitized to the entire thing. I like your perspective on it tho, thanks.

472 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:32:12pm

re: #453 Cato the Elder

If He came to rule us, there would be peas.

Only if given the chance. That’s all we are saying.

473 Jimmah  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:32:59pm

re: #435 Cato the Elder

So do atheists, but good luck getting them to own it.

Discrimination is inevitable and even desirable - but let’s face it - religious criteria for discrimination - eg believer/unbeliever - are not exactly up to scratch.

I haven’t seen many atheists claim to be immune to all forms of unfair discrimination just because they see the fallacy of the religious type.

474 freetoken  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:33:36pm

I see we have a gold nut in the linkages… hehe… BUY GOLD!! …

475 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:33:54pm

Looks like she’s laying down the smack on the old guard feminists who think porn is anti-feminist

476 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:35:02pm

re: #474 freetoken

I see we have a gold nut in the linkages… hehe… BUY GOLD!! …

It’s spreading. Have you seen this?

477 Renaissance_Man  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:35:13pm

re: #455 SanFranciscoZionist

There’s not much power to be had out of peaceful, rational and egalitarian faiths.

See, that’s not entirely true. Buddhism, for instance. As far as fire and brimstone and living your life by absolutes, Buddhism is probably the most milquetoast faith around. ‘Yeah, do whatever, just do it in moderation.’ Yes, there are Buddhist monks living lives of violence in SE Asia, but that’s a comparatively very tiny aberration, and seems to be much more about politics than religious divisions.

Other faiths and sects wield tremendous real-world power without preaching extremism. The majority of First World Western Christianity is indeed relatively egalitarian, peaceful, and rational. It still holds tremendous influence.

It’s just sad that the human condition loves hating the other tribe so much that it prefers to choose that, even when there are better alternatives.

478 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:35:31pm

There’s something oddly familiar about the following site. Help me out, Lizards…
http://www.takebackparliament.com/

This Parliament does not represent us. We demand fair votes now. There must never again be an election under this broken system.

Okay, it’s just a surface similarity. It made me chuckle when I first saw it.

479 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:35:32pm

re: #99 Racer X

How many Christians did the Nazis murder?

Dietrich Bonhoeffer, for one — right off the top of my head.

/but WTF, why am I even bothering?
… … Later. Have a nice day, all.

480 freetoken  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:36:18pm

re: #476 researchok

Ron Paul must be having multiple orgasms over that one.

481 ryannon  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:36:43pm

re: #474 freetoken

I see we have a gold nut in the linkages… hehe… BUY GOLD!! …

Frankly, I wish I had about two years ago when I first got the inkling that there was some easy money to be made with it.

482 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:38:01pm

re: #480 freetoken

Ron Paul must be having multiple orgasms over that one.

Take it to teh bank.

I saw that and flipped out. You know, there’s a whole industry of nuts out there.

483 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:38:37pm

re: #477 Renaissance_Man

See, that’s not entirely true. Buddhism, for instance. As far as fire and brimstone and living your life by absolutes, Buddhism is probably the most milquetoast faith around. ‘Yeah, do whatever, just do it in moderation.’ Yes, there are Buddhist monks living lives of violence in SE Asia, but that’s a comparatively very tiny aberration, and seems to be much more about politics than religious divisions.

Other faiths and sects wield tremendous real-world power without preaching extremism. The majority of First World Western Christianity is indeed relatively egalitarian, peaceful, and rational. It still holds tremendous influence.

It’s just sad that the human condition loves hating the other tribe so much that it prefers to choose that, even when there are better alternatives.

You inadvertently agreed with SFZ’s post. Re-read!

And also, Alan Watts.

484 Jimmah  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:38:46pm

re: #478 JasonA

There’s something oddly familiar about the following site. Help me out, Lizards…
http://www.takebackparliament.com/

Okay, it’s just a surface similarity. It made me chuckle when I first saw it.

‘From time to time the tree of Proportional Representation must be watered with the blood of tyrants’/

485 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:40:01pm

re: #480 freetoken

Ron Paul must be having multiple orgasms over that one.

See this too- apparently, Europe is running out of gold.

486 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:40:29pm

re: #484 Jimmah

‘From time to time the tree of Proportional Representation must be watered with the blood of tyrants’/

Geez. Why does everyone conveniently forget that patriots die according to that quote, too? Wishful thinking? :P

487 Jimmah  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:43:13pm

re: #486 JasonA

Geez. Why does everyone conveniently forget that patriots die according to that quote, too? Wishful thinking? :P

Sounds awfully pagan too if you ask me. But then ice-ski and I did just watch “The Wicker Man” the other night ;-)

488 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:44:52pm
489 freetoken  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:44:55pm

re: #485 researchok

Gold production has declined in the recent past while the uses (technological, medical) have grown. Central banks may buy and sell gold but they don’t mine it (or recover it from waste.)

The gold bugs refuse to accept that the limits of gold production keep it from ever being used for currency. It exists in coinage form only to satisfy the personal hoarder.

490 freetoken  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:46:54pm

re: #488 MandyManners

Tipper was a well known social conservative and campaigner for modesty.

However, the link you gave us shows that this is the Phelps of years gone by, before his current charades.

Certainly you aren’t suggesting that there is any connection now, are you?

491 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:47:35pm

re: #487 Jimmah

Sounds awfully pagan too if you ask me. But then ice-ski and I did just watch “The Wicker Man” the other night ;-)

The original or the Nick Cage one?

492 researchok  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:48:46pm

re: #490 freetoken

Tipper was a well known social conservative and campaigner for modesty.

However, the link you gave us shows that this is the Phelps of years gone by, before his current charades.

Certainly you aren’t suggesting that there is any connection now, are you?

Nothing surprises me anymore. All kinds of crazy out there.

493 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:49:27pm

re: #486 JasonA

Geez. Why does everyone conveniently forget that patriots die according to that quote, too? Wishful thinking? :P

Silly rabbit. When YOUR son dies in combat, he’s a venerated hero. When the OTHER person’s son dies in combat, he’s a justly vanquished foe. Get with the program.

494 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:50:03pm

Well, we tried and failed to get Habs tickets today :(. Stuck watching it on TV I guess.

495 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:50:31pm

re: #489 freetoken

Gold production has declined in the recent past while the uses (technological, medical) have grown. Central banks may buy and sell gold but they don’t mine it (or recover it from waste.)

The gold bugs refuse to accept that the limits of gold production keep it from ever being used for currency. It exists in coinage form only to satisfy the personal hoarder.

The other thing is that the people who buy gold have to keep overinflating its value at every opportunity or their stash might lose value. Once you buy gold you are slave to it. (Think about it: no sane investor would buy all one stock to make up portfolio, why in the name of every economist who ever lived would you buy just one commodity and trust in it?)

496 Randall Gross  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:51:55pm

re: #488 MandyManners

Not surprising, Phelps used to stump for civil rights too, and Gore and Tipper were very much for censorship back then, something Phelps liked.

497 lostlakehiker  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:53:48pm

re: #403 zora

these people don’t need marching orders from clerics or anyone else to be dangerous. guess what. their bullets and bombs can still kill innocents. their victims would be no less dead in jesus name than in allahs name. that is my point.

Well now there, finally, I agree with you. They don’t have marching orders from any larger organization. They’re on their own. And they were dangerous.

They don’t have a track record of success at terrorism. Now, they never will. The kind of conspiracy they had going ought to be sufficient to net them all life in prison without possibility of parole.

Throw away the key.

498 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:56:53pm
499 Jimmah  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:58:57pm

re: #487 Jimmah

Sounds awfully pagan too if you ask me. But then ice-ski and I did just watch “The Wicker Man” the other night ;-)

Not, I hasten to add, the remake with Nicholas Cage, which we have vowed never to watch.

Later folks.
have a good weekend!

500 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 1:59:52pm

re: #499 Jimmah

Not, I hasten to add, the remake with Nicholas Cage, which we have vowed never to watch.

Later folks.
have a good weekend!

Feh. Cinematic genius, that one is.

501 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:00:20pm
502 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:00:51pm

re: #464 negativ

Hi. I’m an atheist. I believe that people whose actions increase the amount of suffering in the world are ‘bad’, and that people who strive to alleviate suffering, or at least take care not to make bad situations worse are ‘good’.

I hereby declare ‘ownership’ of this idea.

Is that what you’re after?

Hi, I’m a Catholic, and I believe the same thing.

Shocking, isn’t it?

503 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:01:15pm
504 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:02:08pm

re: #480 freetoken

Ron Paul must be having multiple orgasms over that one.

You know, I’d rather not visualize that…

505 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:04:17pm
506 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:04:50pm
507 What, me worry?  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:04:50pm

re: #477 Renaissance_Man

See, that’s not entirely true. Buddhism, for instance. As far as fire and brimstone and living your life by absolutes, Buddhism is probably the most milquetoast faith around. ‘Yeah, do whatever, just do it in moderation.’ Yes, there are Buddhist monks living lives of violence in SE Asia, but that’s a comparatively very tiny aberration, and seems to be much more about politics than religious divisions.

Other faiths and sects wield tremendous real-world power without preaching extremism. The majority of First World Western Christianity is indeed relatively egalitarian, peaceful, and rational. It still holds tremendous influence.

It’s just sad that the human condition loves hating the other tribe so much that it prefers to choose that, even when there are better alternatives.

I had some angry Buddhist friends once. Kinda freaked me out.

Anti-Semitism is on the rise because of the fighting in the M.E. and anti-Israel (anti-Jewish) bias that’s permeated practically all cultures. As to anti-Black, well the two aren’t so far from each other. Where you find one, you generally find the other, but that sort of bigotry escalated with the Obama election. The Hispanics are another outlet for that bigotry. It was kind of on the rise before that. The KKK had been slowly increasing in numbers over the last… 10 years or so?

Despite that, Christians and Jews enjoy excellent relations the world over and it’s insulting to hear people saying that Christianity will rise up and start bombing, shooting or whatever. I do think we’re having these surges of crazy in places. Maybe the M.E. terrorists are emboldening other, different kinds of terrorists, I don’t know.

I’m not convinced the GOP is getting a majority in the senate or will win 2012. Definitely not the presidency in 2012.

508 zora  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:05:18pm

going to do some yard work. have a good evening all.

509 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:05:54pm

VIDEO: Jesus Hates Socialism, Obama

Meet the new religious right, same as the old religious right. Kinda sorta. Coral Ridge Ministries, a longtime player in the mission to Christianize (or, as they might put it, re-Christianize) America, is beating a new political drum. Its message is custom-tailored not to the Gospels, but to the alleged political mood of the US in these times. The argument: Socialism is ungodly. Barack Hussein Obama is a socialist. In fact, all Democrats are socialists. And Democrats run the government. Ergo, our government is ungodly.

510 Reginald Perrin  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:08:23pm

re: #488 MandyManners

Al Gore and Fred Phelps.

That’s hilarious, an article from 2000 that describes a fund-raising event events in 1986.

Poor Mandy can’t get over her case of GDS.

511 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:09:13pm

re: #509 Killgore Trout

VIDEO: Jesus Hates Socialism, Obama

[Video]


Remember that time Obama said: “…I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

Yeah…

512 freetoken  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:09:32pm

re: #509 Killgore Trout

The guy is now head of Coral Ridge is even more of a social activist than his predecessor. He has made some of the more outlandish anti-Darwin videos I’ve seen recently (the videos are available through the Salem Comms. websites.)

513 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:11:14pm

re: #512 freetoken

(the videos are available through the Salem Comms. websites.


Hot Air and Pat Buchanan. What’s not to like?
/

514 freetoken  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:11:29pm

Academic repression in (very religious, but not muslim) Ireland:

Bat sex is not protected by academic freedom

515 Nimed  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:12:34pm

Browbeaten into seeing Robin Hood last night.

Did Ridley Scott take an oath never to make a good movie again?

516 lostlakehiker  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:13:13pm

re: #489 freetoken

Gold production has declined in the recent past while the uses (technological, medical) have grown. Central banks may buy and sell gold but they don’t mine it (or recover it from waste.)

The gold bugs refuse to accept that the limits of gold production keep it from ever being used for currency. It exists in coinage form only to satisfy the personal hoarder.

Gold is too valuable to be wasted as a medium of exchange at the retail level. The coins lose mass as minute abrasions take their toll. But gold still serves as a store of value. There’s a reason the U.S. keeps a stash in Fort Knox. If all else fails, and we really must buy something, there’s that gold. A ton of gold is about 38 million dollars at current prices. The gold in Fort Knox, if it could all be sold at current prices, would bring about 175 billion dollars. Not enough to cover the deficit or anything, but a sizable lump of change. The civilians of the world hold some considerable amount of gold, some as jewelry, some as plain old gold. Almost all of it, wedding bands apart maybe, and tooth fillings more surely excepted, serves as an emergency backup to conventional savings.

If the world went on a gold standard, unfortunately, that would drive the price of gold to highs that would stimulate new mining. The real costs of getting the gold would far outweigh the net societal benefit of having more gold to put behind the currencies. So gold remains in its current role as a backstop currency, just like some homes have battery backups for house current. Nothing, compared to usual consumption. Possibly priceless in an emergency.

517 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:13:27pm

re: #514 freetoken

Academic repression in (very religious, but not muslim) Ireland:

Bat sex is not protected by academic freedom

That was awesome. Thank you.

Best part:

Not only do female bats give male bats oral sex, but they do it while they’re having intercourse. The male enters the female from the rear, and the female bends over to lick the shaft of the penis while he’s thrusting in and out. I have never seen that in a porn film. Maybe there is such a thing out there — I can’t claim much knowledge of porn — but this means that animals not only carry out sexually activities condemned by the religious as unnatural, but they do it better than we do.
518 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:14:11pm

re: #514 freetoken

Academic repression in (very religious, but not muslim) Ireland:

Bat sex is not protected by academic freedom

That’s one hell of a bat-move they’ve got going on there. I just described it to my husband who said “So, what’s your excuse?”

I said ‘spinal inflexibility’, and he said “You suck! I’m gonna go marry a bat!”

519 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:15:05pm

re: #515 Nimed

Browbeaten into seeing Robin Hood last night.

Did Ridley Scott take an oath never to make a good movie again?

Did it feel like Gladiator set in Sherwood Forest?

520 freetoken  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:16:30pm

Here’s the latest Coral Ridge video that claims that Darwin is the reason for the Holocaust, etc:

coralridge.org

521 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:16:45pm
522 What, me worry?  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:17:23pm

re: #515 Nimed

Browbeaten into seeing Robin Hood last night.

Did Ridley Scott take an oath never to make a good movie again?

There’s only one reason I want to see that movie. :>

523 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:17:35pm

re: #515 Nimed

Browbeaten into seeing Robin Hood last night.

Did Ridley Scott take an oath never to make a good movie again?

Bah same here. Horrible movie

524 What, me worry?  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:17:57pm

re: #519 JasonA

Did it feel like Gladiator set in Sherwood Forest?

I would be totally ok with that.

525 bosforus  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:18:35pm

Just biked 12 miles. 1/2 city, 1/2 asphalt river trail. I don’t remember the last time my legs burned this bad! But I intend to do it every day for work starting Monday so I’ll get used to it.
Time to open a new spreadsheet, I’ve got stats to track!

526 Nimed  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:18:49pm

re: #519 JasonA

Did it feel like Gladiator set in Sherwood Forest?

Yes. But worse, sprinkled with a lot of French bashing (in all senses) and, believe it or not, Randian ethics.

527 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:19:41pm

re: #526 Nimed

Yes. But worse, sprinkled with a lot of French bashing (in all senses) and, believe it or not, Randian ethics.

Ah, so it’s more like Robin Hood the Seeker?

528 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:19:57pm
529 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:20:37pm

re: #526 Nimed

Yes. But worse, sprinkled with a lot of French bashing (in all senses) and, believe it or not, Randian ethics.

Wasn’t she all opposed to altruism and shit? How does this work with Robin Hood?

530 What, me worry?  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:20:57pm

re: #526 Nimed

Yes. But worse, sprinkled with a lot of French bashing (in all senses) and, believe it or not, Randian ethics.

Randian ethics? Like capitalism = good. Altruism = bad? Doesn’t sound very Robin Hood like.

531 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:21:44pm

re: #529 SanFranciscoZionist

Wasn’t she all opposed to altruism and shit? How does this work with Robin Hood?

Atlas Shrugged has a Robin Hood character who robs ships with foreign aid and gives it back to industrialists.

532 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:22:16pm
533 What, me worry?  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:22:21pm

re: #528 MandyManners

Saddam Hussein phoned President Bush and said, “George, I called you because I had this incredible dream last night. I could see all of America, and it was beautiful and on top of every building, there was a beautiful banner.”

Bush asked, “What was on the banner?”

Saddam responded, “It said Allah is God, and God is Allah.”

Bush said, “You know, Saddam, I’m really glad you called, because last night I had a dream too. I could see all of Baghdad, and it was even more beautiful than before the war. It had been completely rebuilt, and on every building there was also a beautiful banner.”

Saddam said, “What was on the banner?”

Bush replied, “I really don’t know. I don’t read Hebrew.”

I don’t think the Jews want Iraq. Been there, done that.

534 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:22:28pm

re: #514 freetoken

Academic repression in (very religious, but not muslim) Ireland:

Bat sex is not protected by academic freedom

Don’t let Mandy see that video! She already gets upset by fucking cats.

(Shit, did that come out wrong?)

535 bosforus  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:24:04pm

re: #534 Cato the Elder

Don’t let Mandy see that video! She already gets upset by fucking cats.

(Shit, did that come out wrong?)

That’s what she said.

536 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:24:10pm

re: #531 JasonA

Atlas Shrugged has a Robin Hood character who robs ships with foreign aid and gives it back to industrialists.

Well, how does THAT work with Randian ethics? If the industrialists were weak enough to get their stuff taken for foreign aid, why should this dude bother to help them out? Let them organize their own pirate ships!!

(Seriously, sometimes I think I should read more of Rand’s work, and then I hear crap like this, and I think, my blood pressure isn’t THAT low.)

537 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:24:43pm

re: #536 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, how does THAT work with Randian ethics? If the industrialists were weak enough to get their stuff taken for foreign aid, why should this dude bother to help them out? Let them organize their own pirate ships!!

(Seriously, sometimes I think I should read more of Rand’s work, and then I hear crap like this, and I think, my blood pressure isn’t THAT low.)

Well the evil Looters (gov’t) took it from them.

538 Killgore Trout  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:24:53pm
539 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:25:42pm

re: #533 marjoriemoon

I don’t think the Jews want Iraq. Been there, done that.

Bought the goddamn T-shirt, then had it confiscated on their way out of the country.

One of the times I almost actually had an aneurysm over Ted Rall’s stupid cartoon was when he did one suggesting that Bush would give houses in Iraq to ‘Israeli settlers’.

So much fucking cognitive fail it almost kills the informed reader.

540 What, me worry?  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:26:06pm

re: #536 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, how does THAT work with Randian ethics? If the industrialists were weak enough to get their stuff taken for foreign aid, why should this dude bother to help them out? Let them organize their own pirate ships!!

(Seriously, sometimes I think I should read more of Rand’s work, and then I hear crap like this, and I think, my blood pressure isn’t THAT low.)

I think you outranded Rand.

541 bratwurst  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:26:24pm

Last time I checked, Saddam has been dead for 3.5 years.

542 albusteve  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:26:43pm

someone should consider Bernard Cornwell for movie material…
bernardcornwell.net

543 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:26:44pm
544 Nimed  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:26:47pm

re: #529 SanFranciscoZionist

Wasn’t she all opposed to altruism and shit? How does this work with Robin Hood?

re: #530 marjoriemoon

Randian ethics? Like capitalism = good. Altruism = bad? Doesn’t sound very Robin Hood like.

Robin and some awesome English Lords almost revolt against King John’s heavy taxation, but it turns out that it was all a French scheme to conquer England (not a spoiler, you learn this pretty early in the movie).

There’s also an almost verbatim “Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?”

But I don’t want to be unfair, there are plenty of other reasons the movie sucks.

545 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:27:03pm

re: #534 Cato the Elder

Don’t let Mandy see that video! She already gets upset by fucking cats.

(Shit, did that come out wrong?)

The video is awfully cute. I like the way their wings line up when they’re doin’ it.

546 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:28:19pm

re: #541 bratwurst

Last time I checked, Saddam has been dead for 3.5 years.

“And the world is still glad to be rid of him,” as the folks at South Park put it.

547 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:28:20pm

re: #538 Killgore Trout

Nice Teleprompters

Nice crib notes on the hand, too.

She’s made a joke of it.

America: the only country in the history of the world where stupidity is a virtue.

548 What, me worry?  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:29:37pm

re: #539 SanFranciscoZionist

Bought the goddamn T-shirt, then had it confiscated on their way out of the country.

One of the times I almost actually had an aneurysm over Ted Rall’s stupid cartoon was when he did one suggesting that Bush would give houses in Iraq to ‘Israeli settlers’.

So much fucking cognitive fail it almost kills the informed reader.

Yea, but then they just call you over emotional. I feel the frustration when folks cling to an argument based on erroneous knowledge or info.

549 What, me worry?  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:31:41pm

re: #544 Nimed

Robin and some awesome English Lords almost revolt against King John’s heavy taxation, but it turns out that it was all a French scheme to conquer England (not a spoiler, you learn this pretty early in the movie).

There’s also an almost verbatim “Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?”

But I don’t want to be unfair, there are plenty of other reasons the movie sucks.

lol I’m not surprised, but like I say, I’ll definitely see it. Russell Crowe is on my list.

550 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:32:49pm

re: #539 SanFranciscoZionist

Bought the goddamn T-shirt, then had it confiscated on their way out of the country.

One of the times I almost actually had an aneurysm over Ted Rall’s stupid cartoon was when he did one suggesting that Bush would give houses in Iraq to ‘Israeli settlers’.

So much fucking cognitive fail it almost kills the informed reader.

I hate Ted Rall more than Sarah Palin.

Does that tell you anything?

551 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:33:22pm

re: #520 freetoken

Here’s the latest Coral Ridge video that claims that Darwin is the reason for the Holocaust, etc:

[Link: www.coralridge.org…]

re: #548 marjoriemoon

I feel the frustration when folks cling to an argument based on erroneous knowledge or info.

I love it when topics dovetail like that.

552 Nimed  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:33:51pm

re: #549 marjoriemoon

lol I’m not surprised, but like I say, I’ll definitely see it. Russell Crowe is on my list.

He performs competently. Same for Cate Blanchett.

553 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:34:19pm

re: #541 bratwurst

Last time I checked, Saddam has been dead for 3.5 years.

And your point? You think that’s long enough?

554 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:34:33pm

re: #550 Cato the Elder

I hate Ted Rall more than Sarah Palin.

Does that tell you anything?

The other cartoon I almost had to be hospitalized over was the one when Gorbachev died, and Rall was condemning him for not having finished the Soviet takeover of Afghanistan.

555 Nimed  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:35:23pm

re: #550 Cato the Elder

I hate Ted Rall more than Sarah Palin.

Does that tell you anything?

:O
That’s a lot, I imagine.

556 [deleted]  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:36:18pm
557 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:37:03pm

re: #554 SanFranciscoZionist

The other cartoon I almost had to be hospitalized over was the one when Gorbachev died, and Rall was condemning him for not having finished the Soviet takeover of Afghanistan.

Wait, when did he die?

558 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:38:12pm

re: #544 Nimed

Robin and some awesome English Lords almost revolt against King John’s heavy taxation, but it turns out that it was all a French scheme to conquer England (not a spoiler, you learn this pretty early in the movie).

There’s also an almost verbatim “Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?”

But I don’t want to be unfair, there are plenty of other reasons the movie sucks.

So, does this movie rehab Bad King John?

I’ve heard a lot of Anglophilic crap in my day, but I’ve never met an Englishman who thought he was a decent man.

559 Nimed  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:39:37pm

What happened to Oliver Stone, Ridley Scott, Danny Boyle and, to a lesser extent, David Fincher?

560 What, me worry?  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:39:44pm

re: #551 JasonA

I love it when topics dovetail like that.

How did I miss Freetoken’s video! My husband came around from the kitchen when he heard the word “Darwin”. So we’re watching and smirking and all of a sudden he says evolution caused the Holocaust (or some such stupidity) and we both gasped and jumped away from the monitor LOL The crazy, it really does burn!

561 albusteve  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:39:46pm

re: #553 Cato the Elder

And your point? You think that’s long enough?

stunning bit of scholarly investigation

562 bratwurst  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:40:10pm

re: #553 Cato the Elder

And your point? You think that’s long enough?

That the old “jokes” about him (many of which are old enough to be in the second grade) should be retired. Alles klar?

563 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:41:55pm

re: #560 marjoriemoon

How did I miss Freetoken’s video! My husband came around from the kitchen when he heard the word “Darwin”. So we’re watching and smirking and all of a sudden he says evolution caused the Holocaust (or some such stupidity) and we both gasped and jumped away from the monitor LOL The crazy, it really does burn!

Oh hun, if you haven’t seen Expelled you ain’t seen nothin’ yet.

564 Gus  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:41:57pm

re: #547 Cato the Elder

Nice crib notes on the hand, too.

She’s made a joke of it.

America: the only country in the history of the world where stupidity is a virtue.

I thought blackness was a virtue and the road was full of mud.

/

565 albusteve  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:42:01pm

re: #562 bratwurst

That the old “jokes” about him (many of which are old enough to be in the second grade) should be retired. Alles klar?

are you the Joke Retirement agent here?….I never knew

566 Nimed  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:42:07pm

re: #558 Cato the Elder

So, does this movie rehab Bad King John?

I’ve heard a lot of Anglophilic crap in my day, but I’ve never met an Englishman who thought he was a decent man.

It doesn’t go that far. He is portrayed as a vain, feckless liar, easily manipulated by the French.

567 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:42:57pm

re: #562 bratwurst

That the old “jokes” about him (many of which are old enough to be in the second grade) should be retired. Alles klar?

Sorry. I’ll retire my jokes when it pleases me.

568 Gus  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:45:55pm

Hmm. Got some weekend work. Dealing with some zoning issues. You know, I’m no Teabagger but gubernment is still bonkers. Seems like the new trend is down-zoning. They’re wanting to turn or retain urban areas into suburbs of sorts.

So much for infill development.

569 Cato the Elder  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:47:38pm

re: #566 Nimed

It doesn’t go that far. He is portrayed as a vain, feckless liar, easily manipulated by the French.

Lemme guess - played by John Kerry?

570 Reginald Perrin  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:49:10pm

re: #554 SanFranciscoZionist

The other cartoon I almost had to be hospitalized over was the one when Gorbachev died, and Rall was condemning him for not having finished the Soviet takeover of Afghanistan.

Are you sure it was Gorbachev, you may have your Soviet leaders mixed up?

571 albusteve  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:49:32pm

re: #569 Cato the Elder

Lemme guess - played by John Kerry?

John the Ketchup Hearted

572 What, me worry?  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:53:21pm

re: #563 JasonA

Oh hun, if you haven’t seen Expelled you ain’t seen nothin’ yet.

Nah. Think I’ll pass!

573 McSpiff  Sat, May 15, 2010 2:57:50pm

re: #558 Cato the Elder

So, does this movie rehab Bad King John?

I’ve heard a lot of Anglophilic crap in my day, but I’ve never met an Englishman who thought he was a decent man.

Nope. Almost does, but stop short. You don’t like him in the end that’s for sure.

574 Liberal Classic  Sat, May 15, 2010 4:06:59pm

re: #4 Walter L. Newton

This is no different than Christians getting up in arms about “Piss Christ” and other pop art icon that deal with a Christian theme.

I recall the controversy over “Piss Christ” and it caused a scandal because the artist had received funding from the National Endowment for the Arts.


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