Catholic Hospital Punishes Administrator for Authorizing Abortion to Save Woman’s Life

Religion • Views: 3,291

What kind of religion is it that has so little respect for the lives of women that they won’t even allow abortions to save their lives?

That’s exactly the situation with St. Joseph’s Hospital in Phoenix, Arizona, where a long-time administrator has been demoted and possibly excommunicated for authorizing an abortion to save a woman’s life.

Apparently, the Catholic Church believes the proper course of action would have been to stand by and simply watch, as both the woman and her baby died.

A Catholic nun and longtime administrator of St. Joseph’s Hospital and Medical Center in Phoenix was reassigned in the wake of a decision to allow a pregnancy to be ended in order to save the life of a critically ill patient.

The decision also drew a sharp rebuke from Bishop Thomas J. Olmsted, head of the Phoenix Diocese, who indicated the woman was “automatically excommunicated” because of the action.

Neither the hospital nor the bishop’s office would address whether the bishop had a direct role in her demotion. He does not have control of the hospital as a business but is the voice of moral authority over any Catholic institution operating in the diocese.

The actions involving the administrator, mostly taken within the past couple of weeks, followed a last-minute, life-or-death drama in late 2009. The patient had a rare and often fatal condition in which a pregnancy can cause the death of the mother.

Sister Margaret McBride, who had been vice president of mission integration at the hospital, was on call as a member of the hospital’s ethics committee when the surgery took place, hospital officials said. She was part of a group of people, including the patient and doctors, who decided upon the course of action.

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446 comments
1 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:14:54pm

Did someone detonate a bomb packed with crazy in Arizona lately or do they just like the attention?

2 SteveMcG  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:15:27pm

Who needs the Catholic Church anyway? Maybe now the nun can go out and get laid.

3 Dark_Falcon  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:16:09pm

Goodnight, all.

4 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:16:19pm

"What kind of religion is it that has so little respect for the lives of women that they won’t even allow abortions to save their lives?"

Individuals, within a religion, who are afraid of women. AND who probably have agendas of their own . . .

5 Mark Pennington  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:16:37pm

re: #1 JasonA

Did someone detonate a bomb packed with crazy in Arizona lately or do they just like the attention?

They've all gone batshit insane.

6 SteveMcG  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:17:59pm

I just can't wait to hear what Sarah Palin will say, I mean post on her facebook page./////

7 b_sharp  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:18:48pm

Charles, stop already. I'm trying to go to bed.

G'night, dammit.

8 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:18:55pm

re: #5 beekiller

They've all gone batshit insane.

THAT'S IT! I knew it wasn't me.

9 freetoken  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:19:07pm
That’s exactly the situation with St. Joseph’s Hospital in Phoenix, Arizona, where a long-time administrator has been demoted and possibly excommunicated for authorizing an abortion to save a woman’s life.

Well... what about the important part? Was the pregnant woman illegal or legal?

10 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:19:23pm
What kind of religion is it that has so little respect for the lives of women that they won’t even allow abortions to save their lives?

Radical Islam?
/wait, what?

11 laZardo  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:20:12pm

re: #4 ggt

"What kind of religion is it that has so little respect for the lives of women that they won’t even allow abortions to save their lives?"

Religion.

/there's your problem.

12 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:20:17pm

re: #9 freetoken

Well... what about the important part? Was the pregnant woman illegal or legal?

Brilliant, my friend. I bow to you.

13 Mark Pennington  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:20:52pm

re: #9 freetoken

Well... what about the important part? Was the pregnant woman illegal or legal?

LOL I needed that laugh thanks to a very sucky day.

14 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:21:24pm

Quote
"If there had been a way to save the pregnancy and still prevent the death of the mother, we would have done it," the letter says. "We are convinced there was not."

Nothing but sad here, for all involved.

15 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:22:38pm

They don't say what condition the woman had, but one possibility is an ectopic pregnancy, where the baby begins to grow outside the womb. The baby cannot possibly survive in this kind of condition, and if no abortion takes place the woman will almost certainly die in agony.

I don't know if this was the case here, but from the description it sounds likely.

16 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:23:26pm

re: #11 laZardo

Religion.

/there's your problem.

It's the Individuals who choose to act, regardless of their belief system, that are the problem.

17 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:24:48pm

re: #15 Charles

It says

McBride was part of the discussion about the surgery, described as urgent. It involved a serious illness, pulmonary hypertension. The condition limits the ability of the heart and lungs to function and is made worse, possibly even fatal, by pregnancy.
18 laZardo  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:26:16pm

re: #16 ggt

It's the Individuals who choose to act, regardless of their belief system, that are the problem.

The 'unitary' behavior of the Catholic Church and its believers is the problem. The fact that contraception is de facto prohibited in a country like mine, for example, is probably the defining cause of our explosive population growth.

19 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:26:27pm

Another reason to be more fond of Judaism.

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

20 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:26:46pm

re: #17 JasonA

It says

Once again, medical/scientific decisions being made by non-science majors (I assume the Bishop is not a physician). I'm getting pretty tired of this type-of sh*t, in all its current manifestations.

21 Kragar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:27:14pm

OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE, LEAVE THE FUCKING DARK AGES.

22 freetoken  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:27:15pm

re: #18 laZardo

... is probably the defining cause of our explosive population growth.

I suspect testosterone has something to do with that...

23 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:27:30pm

re: #18 laZardo

The 'unitary' behavior of the Catholic Church and its believers is the problem. The fact that contraception is de facto prohibited in a country like mine, for example, is probably the defining cause of our explosive population growth.

What country?

24 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:27:44pm

re: #21 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE, LEAVE THE FUCKING DARK AGES.

They'd have to leave Plato's Cave first.

25 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:28:02pm
What kind of religion is it that has so little respect for the lives of women that they won’t even allow abortions to save their lives?

An Iron Age philosophy that was the best thinking of people who were just beginning to grasp, through a glass darkly, that it might be a good idea to keep feces out of their food supply.

26 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:28:40pm

re: #17 JasonA

You're right, I missed that part, after reading the paragraph that said they couldn't reveal details of the case. (Which they proceeded to do.)

Well, pulmonary hypertension is another really good reason to authorize an abortion. The Church's position is that the hospital should not have tried to save her, which is absolutely morally bankrupt.

27 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:29:30pm

Yeah, that Catholic hospital would've shown us a thing or two if they let that mother try to give birth and they both died.///

28 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:29:45pm

Seriously though. Ms. McBride, the doctors involved, and the mother, all had a very difficult decision to make, and they decided on taking what they considered to be the best course of action under the circumstances.

It is a sad state of affairs when such a thing becomes a political/religious event to be used against someone who appears to have acted in the best interests of their patient.

29 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:29:58pm

re: #26 Charles

You're right, I missed that part, after reading the paragraph that said they couldn't reveal details of the case. (Which they proceeded to do.)

Well, pulmonary hypertension is another really good reason to authorize an abortion. The Church's position is that the hospital should not have tried to save her, which is absolutely morally bankrupt.

This is where I get confused, is it the Church's official position(i.e. The Vatican) or the local "royalty" who interpret it?

30 UncleSam  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:30:53pm

That is just plain crazy and inhuman religious fanaticism.
Shameful religious dogmatism worthy of the deranged theocrats of Iran and Saudi Arabia.

31 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:31:05pm

re: #29 ggt

This is where I get confused, is it the Church's official position(i.e. The Vatican) or the local "royalty" who interpret it?

no, I'm pretty sure this line of thinking comes straight from the top.

32 laZardo  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:31:05pm

re: #23 ggt

What country?

The Philippines.

[note: am feeling EXTRA cranky over the deaths of relatives recently. please tread with caution.]

33 freetoken  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:31:13pm

re: #17 JasonA

It says

McBride was part of the discussion about the surgery, described as urgent. It involved a serious illness, pulmonary hypertension. The condition limits the ability of the heart and lungs to function and is made worse, possibly even fatal, by pregnancy.


So, can we then conclude that the woman was an illegal who came here for free medical care (for a chronic condition) as well as to have an anchor baby? The nerve of some of these illegals!

heh

34 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:31:27pm

re: #30 UncleSam

That is just plain crazy and inhuman religious fanaticism.
Shameful religious dogmatism worthy of the deranged theocrats of Iran and Saudi Arabia.

That, I agree with.

35 avanti  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:32:12pm

re: #26 Charles

You're right, I missed that part, after reading the paragraph that said they couldn't reveal details of the case. (Which they proceeded to do.)

Well, pulmonary hypertension is another really good reason to authorize an abortion. The Church's position is that the hospital should not have tried to save her, which is absolutely morally bankrupt.

""The direct killing of an unborn child is always immoral, no matter the circumstances, and it cannot be permitted in any institution that claims to be authentically Catholic."

That sums it it for the church:

link...

36 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:32:28pm

re: #32 laZardo

The Philippines.

[note: am feeling EXTRA cranky over the deaths of relatives recently. please tread with caution.]

I wasn't aware of the contraception situation in your country.

I am also very sorry for your loss.

37 laZardo  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:33:41pm

re: #22 freetoken

I suspect testosterone has something to do with that...

You can't stop people (in general) from fucking. THAT WAY LEADS TO FASCISM. O:

But you can give them the measures to make sure their sexual habits don't cause unwanted pregnancies. Unfortunately, our local Catholic Church thinks THAT WAY LEADS TO THE DEVIL. O:

38 laZardo  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:34:00pm

re: #36 ggt

I wasn't aware of the contraception situation in your country.

I am also very sorry for your loss.

No biggie. o:

39 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:34:47pm

re: #26 Charles

You're right, I missed that part, after reading the paragraph that said they couldn't reveal details of the case. (Which they proceeded to do.)

Well, pulmonary hypertension is another really good reason to authorize an abortion. The Church's position is that the hospital should not have tried to save her, which is absolutely morally bankrupt.

Morally bankrupt is putting it nicely.
*spit*

I don't understand the Church's position on this, and I am NOT going to agree with it.
Good night, Dear Lizards.

40 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:34:49pm

re: #37 laZardo

You can't stop people (in general) from fucking. THAT WAY LEADS TO FASCISM. O:

But you can give them the measures to make sure their sexual habits don't cause unwanted pregnancies. Unfortunately, our local Catholic Church thinks THAT WAY LEADS TO THE DEVIL. O:

I'm starting to wonder if they just want us all to kill each other thanks to overpopulation.

41 freetoken  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:35:46pm

re: #37 laZardo

Unfortunately, our local Catholic Church thinks THAT WAY LEADS TO THE DEVIL. O:


That's understandable, because sex can also lead to ...
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DANCING!

42 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:35:56pm

re: #32 laZardo

I saw your comment on that when I was skimming through some of the threads I've missed. My heart goes out to you. I have no words adequate enough to comfort, so...

{LaZardo}

43 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:36:25pm

re: #35 avanti

""The direct killing of an unborn child is always immoral, no matter the circumstances, and it cannot be permitted in any institution that claims to be authentically Catholic."

That sums it it for the church:

link...

Yes, that does seem to sum it up. And it is wrong.

An 11-week old fetus has no chance if the mother dies. It's not as if it could live and grow in an incubator.

Bad call on the Bishop's part. It will be interesting to see how it plays out with the women in the church.

44 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:37:41pm

re: #26 Charles

I sent you a donation, a couple of days ago.
I do enjoy your website.
Hope everyone reading "hits the tip jar"!

45 laZardo  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:38:07pm

re: #41 freetoken

DANCING!

O8

46 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:38:41pm

re: #38 laZardo

No biggie. o:

What I don't understand is, in this country at least, the fight for contraception was long and hard. There was even a Supreme Court Case about it and STILL we have children who aren't wanted and the other ravages of ill-or un-planned pregnancy.

47 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:38:48pm

re: #44 Floral Giraffe

I sent you a donation, a couple of days ago.
I do enjoy your website.
Hope everyone reading "hits the tip jar"!

Thank you very much, I appreciate it.

48 Gus  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:39:04pm

That's some priorities they have there. They're willing to sacrifice the life of the mother to sustain the life of the fetus. Both the mother and the fetus would have died had nothing been done.

This is medical malpractice.

Oh, let's not forget that millions of Africans have dyed from AIDs because the Pope and the Holy See refuses to acknowledge the validity of condoms as a preventer of HIV and AIDs.

49 Mark Pennington  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:39:07pm

re: #41 freetoken

That's understandable, because sex can also lead to ...
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DANCING!

hee. You're on a roll tonight.

50 laZardo  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:40:01pm

re: #40 JasonA

I'm starting to wonder if they just want us all to kill each other thanks to overpopulation.

I've been of the mentality that humanity's gonna kill itself completely off before we reach the "interstellar travel" stage of civilization.

/smartest man on the cinder etc.

//yep, a very comedic view. q;

51 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:40:42pm

re: #33 freetoken

I'm not angry with you, and I know you're good peeps, but I just can't find any cause for humor in this event. It sucks all the way around for everyone involved.

No down-ding, no up-ding, no berating. I just can't find the humor in it.

52 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:41:26pm

re: #40 JasonA

I'm starting to wonder if they just want us all to kill each other thanks to overpopulation.

I think they are afraid of slippery slope that leads to the idea that not all life is precious . . .

There doesn't seem to be any middle ground that actually works. People will have babies or not have babies and there will still be babies that aren't wanted and parents who can't provide for them.

The whole subject makes me very depressed.

53 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:42:08pm

re: #47 Charles

No, Thank you, this place is a ton of fun!
You've gotten great posters!
*salud*

54 avanti  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:42:55pm

re: #48 Gus 802

That's some priorities they have there. They're willing to sacrifice the life of the mother to sustain the life of the fetus. Both the mother and the fetus would have died had nothing been done.

This is medical malpractice.

Oh, let's not forget that millions of Africans have dyed from AIDs because the Pope and the Holy See refuses to acknowledge the validity of condoms as a preventer of HIV and AIDs.

They would say it's the principle of the thing, they both die but "God's law" in intact. It's a rule they believe in, but I don't.

55 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:43:45pm

re: #53 Floral Giraffe

No, Thank you, this place is a ton of fun!
You've gotten great posters!
*salud*


So where is he hiding them? :P

56 Kragar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:44:35pm

re: #55 JasonA

So where is he hiding them? :P

in bed

57 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:45:27pm

re: #46 ggt

What I don't understand is, in this country at least, the fight for contraception was long and hard. There was even a Supreme Court Case about it and STILL we have children who aren't wanted and the other ravages of ill-or un-planned pregnancy.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The more we change, the more we stay the same.


Less fortunate was Ida Craddock, who committed suicide on the eve of reporting to Federal prison for distributing via the U.S. Mail various sexually explicit marriage manuals she had authored. Her final work was a lengthy public suicide note specifically condemning Comstock.

Comstock claimed he drove fifteen persons to suicide in his "fight for the young"[3]. He was head vice-hunter of the New York Society for the Suppression of Vice. Comstock, the self-labeled "weeder in God's garden", arrested D. M. Bennett for publishing his "An Open Letter to Jesus Christ" and later entrapped the editor for mailing a free-love pamphlet. Bennett was prosecuted, subjected to a widely publicized trial, and imprisoned in the Albany Penitentiary.

Comstock had numerous enemies, and in later years his health was affected by a severe blow to the head from an anonymous attacker. He lectured to college audiences and wrote newspaper articles to sustain his causes. Before his death, Comstock attracted the interest of a young law student, J. Edgar Hoover, interested in his causes and methods.

During his career, Comstock clashed with Emma Goldman and Margaret Sanger. In her autobiography, Goldman referred to Comstock as the leader of America's "moral eunuchs". Through his various campaigns, he destroyed 15 tons of books, 284,000 pounds of plates for printing 'objectionable' books, and nearly 4,000,000 pictures.[citation needed] Comstock boasted that he was responsible for 4,000 arrests and 15 suicides.[4]

58 laZardo  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:45:30pm

re: #52 ggt

I think they are afraid of slippery slope that leads to the idea that not all life is notprecious . . .

It's not.

At least now that the universe has enough plastic.

/if there is/was a heaven, George Carlin should be in it.

59 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:45:36pm

re: #47 Charles

I appreciate the honesty to discuss "forbidden topics" such as this one.
If we can debate the issues, we can all have a better understanding of them.
What goes on behind closed doors, is pretty scary!

60 freetoken  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:45:58pm

re: #51 Slumbering Behemoth

My comments about AZ, while intending to be humorous as a matter of delivery, are to seriously prick at AZ's dark side.

61 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:46:54pm

re: #60 freetoken

My comments about AZ, while intending to be humorous as a matter of delivery, are to seriously prick at AZ's dark side.

Dark side? What are you trying to say...?

62 Four More Tears  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:47:22pm

re: #59 Floral Giraffe


What goes on behind closed doors, is pretty scary!

In bed.

63 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:47:44pm

Well, I'm going to bed.

Have a great morning Lizards!

64 Gus  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:48:12pm

re: #54 avanti

They would say it's the principle of the thing, they both die but "God's law" in intact. It's a rule they believe in, but I don't.

Malpractice all the way. Luckily for the nun she may only be excommunicated and not burned at the stake the way they used to do. Perhaps in another 1000 years we'll see progress in this realm.

65 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:48:14pm

re: #48 Gus 802

because the Pope and the Holy See refuses to acknowledge the validity of condoms as a preventer of HIV and AIDs.

Condoms 'increase the problem' of AIDS. True story.

66 Kragar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:49:10pm

re: #65 negativ

Condoms 'increase the problem' of AIDS. True story.

/facepalm

67 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:49:18pm

re: #64 Gus 802

Not, bloody likely!
Besides that, Hi Gus!
Hope you are well?

68 Gus  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:49:27pm

re: #65 negativ

Condoms 'increase the problem' of AIDS. True story.

Amazing isn't it?

69 Gus  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:50:26pm

re: #67 Floral Giraffe

Not, bloody likely!
Besides that, Hi Gus!
Hope you are well?

Hi FG! Oh, I'm getting by. Got some work coming in but a bunch of other stuff "looming" over my head.

Yourself?

70 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:50:32pm

re: #65 negativ

Yes, well the words "Pope" and "condom" aren't likely to go into a story well, now, are they?

71 laZardo  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:51:10pm

re: #65 negativ

Condoms 'increase the problem' of AIDS. True story.

Goddammit.

/was tempted to open my 4chan "Africa" folder to cheer myself up.

//NOTE: on 4chan, EVERYTHING gets hated on.

72 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:51:26pm

re: #69 Gus 802

Finer than a frog's hair spit three ways!
Better than I deserve.
Thanks for asking!

73 Gus  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:51:40pm

re: #67 Floral Giraffe

Not, bloody likely!
Besides that, Hi Gus!
Hope you are well?

Oh, you mean not likely as in progress 1000 years from now?

Maybe you're right. What was I thinking trying to be optimistic. 1000 years?

74 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:52:26pm

Pamela "Shrieking Harpy" Geller is whining and ranting about the US Trademark Office tonight, calling them "dhimmis" because they wouldn't approve a trademark for her and Robert Spencer's bigoted anti-Muslim group, SIOA (Stop the Islamization of America).

Right, America's about to become an Islamic country any freaking second. It must be stopped.

The Trademark Office won't issue trademarks for names that are deliberately insulting to ethnic or religious groups, but Geller and Spencer are so deranged that they don't even think they are being insulting.

That's what happens when you dedicate your life to obsessed hatred. People treat you like an obsessed hater, and you don't get trademarks for it.

75 Gus  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:52:46pm

1000 years from now some 40 something year old guy will be thinking to himself, "where's my jetpack?"

76 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:53:02pm

re: #60 freetoken

I dig that, but I just don't think this story is the most appropriate foil.

Regardless, I'm not outraged and I'm not trying to make this a "thing", so I'll drop it.

77 eightyfiv  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:53:03pm

Pardon my ethnocentrism, but this is *bullshit*.
The Talmud worked through these issues nearly two millennia ago. One who pursues the life of another must be stopped, by death if necessary. A fetus endangering the life of the mother has no independent existence except as a pursuer -- it will die regardless. Hence, it must be killed. A moral framework for determining what should be intuitively obvious.

Here is a lovely analysis of a recent, genuinely difficult case done by the late Rav Moshe Feinstein, on conjoined twins. Why the Catholic establishment is still contorting itself over cases as simple as the one here is beyond me.

78 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:53:30pm

And by the way, in case you haven't noticed, LGF now has a registered trademark.

79 Gus  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:54:38pm

re: #78 Charles

And by the way, in case you haven't noticed, LGF now has a registered trademark.

I see. Nice. That will help keep the birdbrains hands off it.

80 swamprat  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:54:55pm

re: #52 ggt

I think they are afraid of slippery slope that leads to the idea that not all life is precious . . .

There doesn't seem to be any middle ground that actually works. People will have babies or not have babies and there will still be babies that aren't wanted and parents who can't provide for them.

The whole subject makes me very depressed.

But, (insert talking point here)
And (anti mother diatribe)
And (mindless illogical rhetoric)
(partisan comment)
(unthinking emotional exclamation)
(generic condemnation of opposing views)
(commonly held position that is inherently without merit)

....And that is just how I feel!


/note. If you read this comment, and you think that this comment only applies against you, or only applies against the "other" side, then you do not understand this post.

81 Kragar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:54:56pm

re: #78 Charles

And by the way, in case you haven't noticed, LGF now has a registered trademark.

Gratz

82 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:55:19pm

re: #74 Charles

Good on them! Stupid haters.
*waves at the stalkers, anyway*

83 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:55:33pm

re: #65 negativ

Condoms 'increase the problem' of AIDS. True story.

This just in... use of seat-belts cause an increase in deadly car accidents... story at eleventy!

84 Kragar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:55:38pm

re: #78 Charles

And by the way, in case you haven't noticed, LGF now has a registered trademark.

Hey, does that mean you can file TM charges against the blog that shall not be named?

85 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:56:00pm

re: #78 Charles

And by the way, in case you haven't noticed, LGF now has a registered trademark.

Woo Hoo!
Go get them, Charles!

86 laZardo  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:56:17pm

re: #78 Charles

And by the way, in case you haven't noticed, LGF now has a registered trademark.

[squints and sees what you did there]

87 Gus  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:56:43pm

I should probably apologize to the world bird population.

Sorry birds!

/

88 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:57:50pm

re: #87 Gus 802

I should probably apologize to the world bird population.

Sorry birds!

/

Gives Gus the bird, & wonders why he's upset...
LOL!

89 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:57:50pm

re: #84 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

They changed their name as soon as they learned that I'd filed for a trademark. Which was immediately after I posted about it here, because they obsessively read every word of every comment I post.

Oh hai stalkers!

90 Gus  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:59:13pm

re: #88 Floral Giraffe

Gives Gus the bird, & wonders why he's upset...
LOL!

A-well-a bird, bird, b-bird's the word...

91 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:59:29pm

re: #89 Charles

It is amazing to me, but probably old hat to you.
Them stalkers. How long have some of them been banned, yet they just lust after this blog?
Lil Ricky, yes, you!

92 laZardo  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:59:45pm

re: #87 Gus 802

I should probably apologize to the world bird population.

Sorry birds!

/

WUB isn't online. Don't worry about it yet.

93 ClaudeMonet  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:59:46pm

In my town, people say I'm crazy for worrying that the recent acquisition of the local Jewish hospital by a Catholic group (aka a sell-out of a local tradition by the Jewish Foundation, trying to re-coop its investment losses by selling out the Jewish community's birthright) is going to lead to changes in its operation. I may be crazy for other reasons, but I think I'm right about this one.

I know its cold comfort, but Sr. McBride has my thanks for daring to put human principles ahead of the autocracy of Holy Mother Church.

On a lighter note--freetoken, thank you for #41. It reminds me of my long-ago days in the portal to Hell that is Oklahoma.

94 Kragar  Sat, May 15, 2010 11:59:50pm

re: #89 Charles

They changed their name as soon as they learned that I'd filed for a trademark. Which was immediately after I posted about it here, because they obsessively read every word of every comment I post.

Oh hai stalkers!

Looks like they still have the DNS name registered.

95 swamprat  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:00:47am

Waves to the "Pitcairn Island" blog.

96 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:01:42am

re: #68 Gus 802

Amazing isn't it?

As far as I'm concerned, the Catholic church is a bizarre medieval cult obsessed with death and suffering (c.f. 100% of Catholic iconography over the last 1700 years). It's also apparently quite attractive to childfuckers.

I realize that the main reason it's not perceived to be in the same category as Scientology has more to do with successful marketing than anything else, but I remain astonished that the philosophy has a following at all.

97 Four More Tears  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:04:10am

re: #90 Gus 802

A-well-a bird, bird, b-bird's the word...

You had to know someone would post this:

98 Gus  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:05:52am

re: #97 JasonA

You had to know someone would post this:

[Video]

Hilarious!

99 Kragar  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:06:19am

re: #95 swamprat

Waves to the "Pitcairn Island" blog.

Kalaupapa or Fantome Island might be more applicable.

100 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:07:59am

The notion of "Excommunication" is insane psycho mumbo jumbo. The quicker we reject this notion that someone can expel you from your own religion, even symbolically, because of their station, the better off we'll be.

The same goes for the bullshit about revoking American citizenship.

101 Gus  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:08:41am
102 laZardo  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:09:02am

re: #100 WindUpBird

The notion of "Excommunication" is insane psycho mumbo jumbo. The quicker we reject this notion that someone can expel you from your own religion, even symbolically, because of their station, the better off we'll be.

The same goes for the bullshit about revoking American citizenship.

SPEAK OF THE BIRD.

/see #87

103 Lidane  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:10:30am

This is the same Church that excommunicated a 9 year old Brazilian girl's mother and the doctors that saved her life after an abortion was performed on that young girl.

The girl had been raped and impregnated with twins by her stepfather. Find me a 9-year old girl ANYWHERE that is physically able to carry a single pregnancy, much less twins. Yet the Church didn't care that this was a child in an unimaginable horror-- they excommunicated everyone involved except for the stepfather, who raped the girl in the first place.

Of course they're going to punish someone in a hospital for saving a patient's life. Abortion trumps everything else for these people. It's inhuman, IMO.

104 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:10:46am

re: #96 negativ

Marketing. Your mileage may vary.

105 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:13:09am

OK, I'm going to go listen to my pillow now.
Be nice, or be REALLY mean to a Troll.

106 Four More Tears  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:13:29am

re: #104 Slumbering Behemoth

Marketing. Your mileage may vary.

You should check out their episode on the Vatican. Great stuff.

107 ClaudeMonet  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:13:34am

re: #77 eightyfiv

Pardon my ethnocentrism, but this is *bullshit*.
The Talmud worked through these issues nearly two millennia ago. One who pursues the life of another must be stopped, by death if necessary. A fetus endangering the life of the mother has no independent existence except as a pursuer -- it will die regardless. Hence, it must be killed. A moral framework for determining what should be intuitively obvious.

Here is a lovely analysis of a recent, genuinely difficult case done by the late Rav Moshe Feinstein, on conjoined twins. Why the Catholic establishment is still contorting itself over cases as simple as the one here is beyond me.

As a Jew who attended a Catholic university, I can tell you. The Church trusts no "logic", "learning", and "reasoning" that is not its own, even if it is right. If a subject has been discussed and ruled upon by others, The Church may even hold against the conclusion because it was arrived at by those not of The Faith.

(For the record, I have nothing against Catholics, but plenty against those in charge of it.)

108 Gus  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:13:50am

re: #105 Floral Giraffe

OK, I'm going to go listen to my pillow now.
Be nice, or be REALLY mean to a Troll.

Later FG!

109 swamprat  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:13:50am

Dog is wanting me tore: #96 negativ

They've been in business for well over 1,000 years. They have done good and bad. Fielded armies, tended to the poor and sick, persecuted various peoples, chastised bad rulers, coddled tyrants, fed the hungry, fought against science, supported science, supported education, fought against education....

Long, long time.

110 ClaudeMonet  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:14:18am

I meant "those in charge of The Church". Sorry.

111 Kragar  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:14:54am

Return of the Living Dead 2 is greatly inferior to its predecessor.

112 Gus  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:18:54am
113 laZardo  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:20:02am

And that's why I don't believe in "good" and "evil."

114 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:21:09am

re: #106 JasonA

Seen that one. I dig the show. I don't always agree with some of their conclusions, but they do a great job of exposing the, well, Bullsh*t.

115 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:25:31am

re: #113 laZardo

I do, but not in the sense that we are marionettes driven by the whims of supernatural puppeteers.

116 Kragar  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:26:14am

re: #113 laZardo

And that's why I don't believe in "good" and "evil."

I believe. Its also why I keep the choice between the 2 personal and don't let assholes like those above to make the call for me.

117 swamprat  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:27:02am

Here's a Lutheran who tried to kill Hitler, and believed in social justice.Yeah, I know, we were talking about Catholics. Still, I found him interesting.


He studied under Reinhold Niebuhr and met Frank Fisher, a black fellow seminarian who introduced him to Abyssinian Baptist Church in Harlem, where he taught a Sunday school and formed a life-long love for African-American spiritual, a collection of which he took back to Germany. He heard Adam Clayton Powell, Sr. preach the Gospel of Social Justice and became sensitive to social injustices experienced by minorities and the ineptness of the church to bring about integration.

Also:

The camp doctor who witnessed the execution wrote: “I saw Pastor Bonhoeffer ... kneeling on the floor praying fervently to God. I was most deeply moved by the way this lovable man prayed, so devout and so certain that God heard his prayer. At the place of execution, he again said a short prayer and then climbed the few steps to the gallows, brave and composed. His death ensued after a few seconds. In the almost fifty years that I worked as a doctor, I have hardly ever seen a man die so entirely submissive to the will of God.

Read the whole thing.

Hattip: pre- Boomer Marine

118 laZardo  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:27:04am

re: #114 Slumbering Behemoth

Seen that one. I dig the show. I don't always agree with some of their conclusions, but they do a great job of exposing the, well, Bullsh*t.

You could say that Penn & Teller was how I came to LGF.

119 Gus  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:27:52am

re: #115 Slumbering Behemoth

I do, but not in the sense that we are marionettes driven by the whims of supernatural puppeteers.

[Video]

Ghosts, aliens, UFOs, magic, astrology, ESP, palm reading, card reading, fortune telling, apparitions, poltergeists...

But I digress.

120 Gus  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:32:43am
121 laZardo  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:35:05am

re: #116 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

I believe. Its also why I keep the choice between the 2 personal and don't let assholes like those above to make the call for me.

I think it's more like what is defined as "healthy" and "unhealthy" behavior to a person within societal bounds.

Given that certain societies have different 'bounds,' there can be no universal definition.

122 Kragar  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:36:30am

re: #121 laZardo

I think it's more like what is defined as "healthy" and "unhealthy" behavior to a person within societal bounds.

Given that certain societies have different 'bounds,' there can be no universal definition.

but you can have one on a personal level.

123 laZardo  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:38:37am

re: #122 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

but you can have one on a personal level.

Personally, I'm of the "it's not bad if you don't get caught" mentality, but that doesn't mean that "following the rules" can't also be beneficial to my well-being.

124 Gus  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:40:29am

Castles Made of Sand - Jimi Hendrix

Down the street you can hear her scream you're a disgrace
As she slams the door in his drunken face
And now he stands outside
And all the neighbors start to gossip and drool
He cries oh, girl you must be mad,
What happened to the sweet love you and me had?
Against the door he leans and starts a scene,
And his tears fall and burn the garden green

And so castles made of sand fall in the sea, eventually

A little Indian brave who before he was ten,
Played war games in the woods with his Indian friends
And he built up a dream that when he grew up
He would be a fearless warrior Indian Cheif
Many moons past and more the dream grew strong until
Tomorrow he would sing his first war song and fight his first battle
But something went wrong, surprise attack killed him in his sleep that night

And so castles made of sand melts into the sea, eventually

There was a young girl, who's heart was a frown
Cause she was crippled for life,
And she couldn't speak a sound
And she wished and prayed she could stop living,
So she decided to die
She drew her wheelchair to the edge of the shore
And to her legs she smiled you wont hurt me no more
But then a sight she'd never seen made her jump and say
Look a golden winged ship is passing my way

And it really didn't have to stop, it just kept on going...

And so castles made of sand slips into the sea, eventually

125 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:41:18am

re: #119 Gus 802

Nary a phantom nor ghost, demon nor angel to be seen. Not a wisp of willow nor haunt of the grave to be found. There is more wonder and awe in any given NASA endeavor than there is in any Santa Claus.

/"But you do not see, because you are not open and accepting" says the cold reader, the tarot flipper, the star gazing astrologist...

126 Bagua  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:41:28am

re: #120 Gus 802

Audio is dubbed in.

127 Gus  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:41:53am

re: #126 Bagua

Audio is dubbed in.

Yep. Still works. ;)

128 Bagua  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:44:26am

re: #127 Gus 802

It's better than an album cover shot, at least we see the real video of them hamming it up for a TV audience. I really enjoyed that.

129 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:46:27am

re: #123 laZardo

If Consequences dictate
My course of action
And it doesn't matter what's right
It's only wrong if you get caught

If consequences dictate
My course of action i should
I should play god

130 swamprat  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:46:36am

re: #99 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Kalaupapa or Fantome Island might be more applicable.

Thanks.

131 Gus  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:50:08am

re: #125 Slumbering Behemoth

Nary a phantom nor ghost, demon nor angel to be seen. Not a wisp of willow nor haunt of the grave to be found. There is more wonder and awe in any given NASA endeavor than there is in any Santa Claus.

/"But you do not see, because you are not open and accepting" says the cold reader, the tarot flipper, the star gazing astrologist...

I'll never forget the first time I went to Glacier National Park and Grand Teton NP as teenager. This was after living in the flat lands of South Jersey. The air was so clear, the mountains so beautiful, the sky was a deep blue, and all of the wildlife. The contrast of seeing Wyoming and Montana was so stark compared to the relative boredom of the scrub pines.

The Hubble images are amazing. To me that's been in many ways more wondrous than the Shuttle missions. Of course if it wasn't for the Shuttle program we wouldn't have seen those images. The size of the universe is difficult to comprehend so that never really enters my mind. I do often think what it would be like to be "right there."

132 laZardo  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:52:58am

re: #129 Slumbering Behemoth

If Consequences dictate
My course of action
And it doesn't matter what's right
It's only wrong if you get caught

If consequences dictate
My course of action i should
I should play god

If vengeance-motivated murder wasn't a easily-deduced path to jail, I'd probably do that to the abusive boyfriend of my first cousin. That one who committed suicide and had a daughter I'm godfather to.

133 theheat  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:58:04am
The decision also drew a sharp rebuke from Bishop Thomas J. Olmsted, head of the Phoenix Diocese, who indicated the woman was “automatically excommunicated” because of the action.

Sure are quick to excommunicate in this case, as opposed to all the happy little child molesters in church power positions that were shuffled around like playing cards in some filthy poker game.

"You are excommunicated! Hear us roar! We won't tolerate this kind of behavior!"

This is one time, one incident. If some states like South Dakota and Oklahoma could push it through, it would be a crime to have an abortion and women would be practically put in stocks in public squares if they had one. That, to me, is a lot more scary the backward medieval views of a single church.

Living well is the best revenge, and I hope the women who survived the ordeal tells the church to kiss her f*cking ass, and the ass of every other women faced with such a life and death situation, those sanctimonious pricks wish to ostracize.

134 Kragar  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:58:42am

re: #132 laZardo

Don't go that route Laz. Plenty of other ways to deal with a shit like that without getting yourself in trouble.

135 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:59:39am

re: #131 Gus 802

On the flip-side...

When I was a young teen, we (family) went to visit a family friend. I was designated to sleep in a room haunted by a ghost. There were many elaborate tales told about this apparition and it's time among the living. All very serious.

Three of the most boring nights of my life.
/But of course. I do not see it, because I am not open to it.

136 mr.JA  Sun, May 16, 2010 1:04:29am

I'll just let Tim Minchin say what I think about the catholic chruch:

Ok, the song is hyperbolically crude, but so funny. If you're a catholic, or a bit sensitive to excessive swearing, or like the pope, then better do not click.

Another song from the guy, where he talks about his love for his wife, called 'if I didn't have you' is absolutely brilliant and so very true. You might get into trouble if you send it to your significant other though...

137 laZardo  Sun, May 16, 2010 1:05:07am

re: #134 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Don't go that route Laz. Plenty of other ways to deal with a shit like that without getting yourself in trouble.

Don't think I don't disagree. My dad forwarded me an e-mail this morning detailing the history Canada's negligence laws. We're hoping her two daughters will end up in the custody of her mother (my aunt).

But yeah, I have thought about making sure that if the dad comes looking for his kids, it's him they won't find. But it is just a thought.

It's not like I'm Michael C. Hall.

138 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 16, 2010 1:06:27am

re: #132 laZardo

If we were face to face, we could speak more openly on the matter, as brothers. In this format... what might seem like fleeting words in fact have a permanency that can be quite condemning.

Leave such words for another time, to be shared with those you recognize by their very eyeballs.

139 Gus  Sun, May 16, 2010 1:07:04am

re: #135 Slumbering Behemoth

On the flip-side...

When I was a young teen, we (family) went to visit a family friend. I was designated to sleep in a room haunted by a ghost. There were many elaborate tales told about this apparition and it's time among the living. All very serious.

Three of the most boring nights of my life.
/But of course. I do not see it, because I am not open to it.

When we moved to upstate New York (didn't stay for more than a year) even as a kid I was taken aback at how so many kids used to talk about ghosts. They weren't talking about movie ghosts they were talking about the ghost stories they've heard (or experienced). I was rather skeptical since I was already going through my 8 year old Hitchens phase by then. Plus, the only ghosts I've thought about at the time were on the Abbott and Costello Show.

The area was surrounded by old stone houses and it also had a lot of Revolutionary War landmarks. Odd that I would still have nightmares. However, I just couldn't fall for the concept of ghosts.

140 laZardo  Sun, May 16, 2010 1:08:09am

re: #138 Slumbering Behemoth

If we were face to face, we could speak more openly on the matter, as brothers. In this format... what might seem like fleeting words in fact have a permanency that can be quite condemning.

Leave such words for another time, to be shared with those you recognize by their very eyeballs.

I will. And as I indicated in that #132, I would probably end up "getting caught."

141 Kragar  Sun, May 16, 2010 1:08:28am

re: #137 laZardo

Don't think I don't disagree. My dad forwarded me an e-mail this morning detailing the history Canada's negligence laws. We're hoping her two daughters will end up in the custody of her mother (my aunt).

But yeah, I have thought about making sure that if the dad comes looking for his kids, it's him they won't find. But it is just a thought.

It's not like I'm Michael C. Hall.

A detailed report of his behavior and the incident, anonymously mailed to his employer, family members and any woman he ever takes a serious interest in ever again might cause him significant distress, repeated as needed over several years.

142 Bagua  Sun, May 16, 2010 1:11:16am

re: #140 laZardo

I will. And as I indicated in that #132, I would probably end up "getting caught."

Quite normal to fantasize about choking the bastard though, I'd have murder on my mind as well.

143 Gus  Sun, May 16, 2010 1:18:17am

I had a vivid dream once in which I committed a capital crime. When I say vivid I mean vivid and even had feelings of guilt about even dreaming that since it involved a close family member. That was many years ago. I never want to have a dream like that again and I never have.

144 laZardo  Sun, May 16, 2010 1:18:22am

Gonna go engage in some catharsis with my good friends Niko Bellic and Luis Lopez.

BBL.

145 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 16, 2010 1:20:14am

re: #140 laZardo

Your heart is in my head. You're not the first to feel this, and you won't be the last.

Discretion, brother.

146 laZardo  Sun, May 16, 2010 1:22:47am

re: #145 Slumbering Behemoth

Your heart is in my head. You're not the first to feel this, and you won't be the last.

Discretion, brother.

Life, the universe and everything will move on as usual in the end. Humanity is a side-effect.

BBL srsly this time.

147 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 16, 2010 1:29:41am

re: #146 laZardo

I'm out too.

Remember love, recognize your friends, watch your back, and keep your cards pressed close to your vest.

148 freetoken  Sun, May 16, 2010 1:32:06am
149 Bagua  Sun, May 16, 2010 1:48:01am

re: #148 freetoken

That was a childhood favourite, really brought me back for a minute.

150 freetoken  Sun, May 16, 2010 2:00:33am
151 freetoken  Sun, May 16, 2010 2:14:03am

Just a note: The Heartland Institute (Chicago) is holding their 4th liars and fantasy workshop starting on Sunday. Expect the right wing kook-o-sphere to be paying plenty of attention and pimping the lies.

152 palomino  Sun, May 16, 2010 2:26:19am

Church leaders seem capable of all sorts of moral contortions when it comes to saving the reputations of pedophile priests. But none when it comes to saving the life of a pregnant woman.

This isn't really the image the Church needs as it tries to re-brand itself and gain new followers, who have been leaving in droves in recent years.

153 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, May 16, 2010 2:27:59am

re: #152 palomino

Church leaders seem capable of all sorts of moral contortions when it comes to saving the reputations of pedophile priests. But none when it comes to saving the life of a pregnant woman.

This isn't really the image the Church needs as it tries to re-brand itself and gain new followers, who have been leaving in droves in recent years.

Boy..isn't that the truth...Nice post

154 palomino  Sun, May 16, 2010 2:29:50am

re: #143 Gus 802

I had a vivid dream once in which I committed a capital crime. When I say vivid I mean vivid and even had feelings of guilt about even dreaming that since it involved a close family member. That was many years ago. I never want to have a dream like that again and I never have.

Don't sweat it. Dreams of criminality, guilt and imprisonment are quite common. Just shows that you have a conscience.

155 freetoken  Sun, May 16, 2010 3:29:49am

Regarding the liars and fantasy workshop at Heartland....

Looking at their "speakers" list one expects to find, and does, the usual cast. The Lord High Denier of course, along with Schoolboy Watts, Fred "Smoking" Singer, the theocrats (Spencer, etc.) and so forth.

I did come across a name that seemed out of place though, if only because I didn't recognize it: "Sen. Pamela Gorman." Didn't sound like a US Senator, so I had to look her up.

Turns out she is from.... Arizona (heh) - Arizona state senate. So, what are her credentials to be a speaker at a high profile ( at least in the wingnut-o-sphere) soirée of ecological sadism? Well, lets go down the checklist:

Is she an ideologue, unbending even to her own party members? Check. She quit her job as party whip because she can't cotton any tax increases, even a 1 cent on the dollar sales tax, even though other members in her own party desired such an increase to avert a budget disaster. Apparently the other Republicans weren't conservative enough for her so she didn't want to be their whip anymore. And just like The Sarah, vacated her office before she finished her term.

Well, ok, she must be a real conservative then? Check. She is a fav of Tea Partiers and "patriots", visiting their gatherings. (see also [Link: originalnorthphoenixteaparty.ning.com...] sorry no cache I could find.)


Ok, does she pass the religious test? Check. She sponsors anti-abortion bills, including one on forcing meth-using mothers-to-be into treatment. The bill also creates the crime of child abuse against a fetus.

Ok, but does she have any ideas about how to deal with climate change? Check. In a bill to reauthorize the operation of the Arizona Department of Environmental Quality (which apparently has to justify its existence every few years, as if environmental quality will just magically cease to be an issue), Gorman tried some ammendments:

Senators defeated amendments offered by Sen. Pamela Gorman, R-Anthem that sought to further rein in the agency. One of the amendments mirrored the provisions of a bill the Senate had approved minutes earlier: To block the agency from enforcing any rules that would curb greenhouse-gas emissions or fuel economy that are not passed by the Legislature. That bill, SB1147, is an attempt to block the state's participation in the Western Climate Initiative.

Ok, but since she quit her job in the AZ senate, is she going to try anything else in the political realm? Check, she's running for nomination for US Congress.

So there you have it, what it requires for a previous nobody to hit the big leagues of the AGW-denial circuit: be an unbending theocratic ideologue who quits when she can't have her own way, be a fav of Tea Partiers, and try to keep any effort at AGW mitigation off the books.

156 ryannon  Sun, May 16, 2010 3:51:34am

re: #154 palomino

Don't sweat it. Dreams of criminality, guilt and imprisonment are quite common. Just shows that you have a conscience.

I dreamed I took the subway to work in my MaidenForm Bras.*

The only thing that really upsets me about this is that I'm a guy.

157 ryannon  Sun, May 16, 2010 3:52:30am

PIMF: Bra

158 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, May 16, 2010 3:54:49am

re: #156 ryannon

I dreamed I took the subway to work in my MaidenForm Bras.*

The only thing that really upsets me about this is that I'm a guy.


LOL
That's really disturbing...Were you also wearing a little black cocktail dress?

159 ryannon  Sun, May 16, 2010 3:57:05am

Hark! Tre: #158 HoosierHoops

LOL
That's really disturbing...Were you also wearing a little black cocktail dress?

here's that song again....

No, dressed normally as always in an athletic supporter and red flip-flops.

I don't get the bra part at all.

160 ryannon  Sun, May 16, 2010 3:58:04am

Mixed two posts again. The song was for after.

Sigh.

161 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, May 16, 2010 4:17:34am

Watching the Score on Showtime...Filmed in Montreal..One of the coolest cities in the world..

162 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 4:38:16am

Soldiers from 4th Squadron, 73rd Cavalry Regiment, 4th Brigade Combat Team, 82nd Airborne Division, deployed to western Afghanistan, have become Internet rock stars for a YouTube video featuring a choreographed lip-sync performance of Lady Gaga’s hit “Telephone.”

Internet surfers have viewed the viral video nearly 4.4 million times, and the number grows daily.

The music video features soldiers dancing, sometimes in their combat uniforms and sometimes in skimpy costumes apparently made of reflective tape and trash bags.

SNIP


Here it is.


163 Boogberg  Sun, May 16, 2010 5:15:29am

re: #162 MandyManners

Lol! :D

It's good to see those guys having some fun in what must otherwise be a pretty crappy situation.

164 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 5:34:35am

re: #163 Boogberg

Lol! :D

It's good to see those guys having some fun in what must otherwise be a pretty crappy situation.

I wonder what Inhofe would say.

165 tigger2005  Sun, May 16, 2010 5:39:17am

Friend of mine at work, her son in his late 30's who is a sheriff's deputy was called up unexpectedly, is serving at Khandahar base in Afghanistan. He says it stinks...literally. The waste treatment plant is at the center of the base, and the whole place smells. He's asked for candles, incense, anything to cover the stench.

re: #163 Boogberg

Lol! :D

It's good to see those guys having some fun in what must otherwise be a pretty crappy situation.

166 Boogberg  Sun, May 16, 2010 5:46:01am

re: #165 tigger2005

Damn, that sucks. Sorry to hear it. Hats off to your friend's son. Tell me what to do and I'll see if I can help.

167 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 5:48:09am

HE IS a long-haired rocker who plays a mean riff and cites Led Zeppelin among his influences — and now he has been unveiled as the government’s latest weapon in the fight against Al-Qaeda.

Salman Ahmad, a Pakistani musician whose band has sold more than 30m albums, is to urge Muslim students to choose an electric guitar over extremism.

The self-proclaimed “rock’n’roll jihadist” will this week take his message to students at Oxford University, Imperial College and the London School of Economics, which all have sizeable Islamic societies.

SNIP

168 sandbox  Sun, May 16, 2010 5:56:09am

re: #167 MandyManners

I wish him luck, the jihadis ain't gonna like this guy.

169 Renaissance_Man  Sun, May 16, 2010 6:07:29am

The most likely cause in a sad case like this one is something called Eisenmenger Syndrome; a congenital condition of the mother that starts with a ventricular septal defect, the classic 'hole in the heart'.

Blood that should be pumped to the rest of the body is instead pumped back into the pulmonary circulation, which isn't designed to handle that sort of volume. As a result, the patient is permanently hypoxic and cyanotic, because not enough blood is getting to the rest of the body, and their pulmonary circulation (right side of the heart, lung capillaries) are under huge stresses and start to degenerate. Pregnancy is a serious overload of the circulatory system even for a healthy woman; asking that much more out of a woman with heart failure and who isn't getting enough blood anyway is too much.

Mortality in pregnant women with Eisenmenger's is about 40-50%. What statistics like that mean, though, isn't that 'women with the condition have a 50-50 chance of dying or surviving'. What they mean is that 50% of women who have it are so bad that they will die, and the rest are milder cases who have better chances of survival. You have to terminate in cases like this.

170 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, May 16, 2010 6:09:34am

re: #133 theheat

I was going to comment that at least the person was only demoted and excommunicated, there pare places where you can be jailed or even put to death for such actions. But it seems we are on our was to joining the list of such places.

171 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 16, 2010 6:15:57am
"An unborn child is not a disease. While medical professionals should certainly try to save a pregnant mother's life, the means by which they do it can never be by directly killing her unborn child. The end does not justify the means."

I guess that is why there is belief in miracles. It's the ultimate CYA argument and justification for avoiding any difficult decisions.

172 kirkspencer  Sun, May 16, 2010 6:32:40am

re: #171 Naso Tang

I guess that is why there is belief in miracles. It's the ultimate CYA argument and justification for avoiding any difficult decisions.

It is as though they have never had to face the cold equations of triage.

173 tigger2005  Sun, May 16, 2010 6:44:01am

re: #166 Boogberg

Damn, that sucks. Sorry to hear it. Hats off to your friend's son. Tell me what to do and I'll see if I can help.

I left his address at work, but I can get it Monday.

175 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 16, 2010 6:52:02am

re: #168 sandbox

I wish him luck, the jihadis ain't gonna like this guy.

That's the point. The eliminate their support, Britain (like the US) needs to makes the case that the Islamists are wrong. They'll hate that by definition. But as usual, there's nothing for it: preservation of freedom requires confrontation.

176 laZardo  Sun, May 16, 2010 6:52:07am
177 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 16, 2010 6:54:02am

re: #151 freetoken

Just a note: The Heartland Institute (Chicago) is holding their 4th liars and fantasy workshop starting on Sunday. Expect the right wing kook-o-sphere to be paying plenty of attention and pimping the lies.

Where in my home city is this nutcase conclave?

178 Boogberg  Sun, May 16, 2010 6:55:43am

re: #173 tigger2005

No problem. I'm on vacation this week so I'll be around.

179 sandbox  Sun, May 16, 2010 6:55:48am

re: #175 Dark_Falcon
You wrote

preservation of freedom requires confrontation.

A great statement--however too long for a bumper sticker.

180 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, May 16, 2010 6:56:09am

Morning Honcos.

181 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, May 16, 2010 6:57:52am

The Little green football prayer list
On this day in 1929, the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences hands out its first awards, at a dinner party for around 250 people held in the Blossom Room of the Roosevelt Hotel in Hollywood, California.

We pray today for the Southern Coast of America and for all those whose lives are affected by the oil spill. We pray for the environment that is being damaged.
We thank you Lord that no one was hurt in Times Square last night from the attempted car bombing.
We thank you Lord for your kindness to Lazardo’s Family.. Look after them and bring them blessings..We pray for his grandmother this morning.. She has cancer and will soon pass.. Be there for her Lord as she comes home.
Dark_Falcon: Hoops, could you add my mother to the Prayer List? She's in the hospital right now. They don't know yet what's wrong, but they're running tests.
Jadespring: Dear Lord bring healing to a Sister.. Bring grace and strength to the Family.
We pray for your tender mercies
Wlewisiii: If you would pray as appropriate to your beliefs for John Freuh, his step-mother, my sister Elisabeth & his father Rick, I'd appreciate it.
Dear Lord..We ask you this day you bring healing and grace to SFZ’s Father and Mother-in-law..
Help her in the Job search and finding her a new Career. .
We know your love brings healing and life.
Dear Lord..We pray for SFZ this morning:
Her friend of a friend has a newborn son facing some bad medical issues. Prayers for Grant, son of Jill and Steven, are greatly appreciated.
Ausador: Parents
Irenicum: Lord heal this family and bring comfort to them..
Guanxi88: Best wishes and lizard mojo to my wife's best friend. her father committed suicide not two weeks after her mother succumbed to cancer.
Reine: Health and Family.. Lord we ask you grant Reine’s Daughter a Special blessing..Look after her and grant grace.
gregb - 4 year old son who suffered a head injury last Friday and spent the
weekend in the ICU with some lingering effects all week.Jadespring: Our prayers go out to your sister…May she be healed
Baseballmom57: My God grant grace and healing to her son…
lurking faith… prayers for an aunt
Beekiller: Sister has been diagnosed with Cancer…We pray for a speedy recovery
FBV: Add my friend Jeff. Recently diagnosed with ALS. His family will watch him fade and die over the next three to five years. Wife and two kids (kids are young adults).
Prairiefire: Health for Family and friends
Mcspiff: if you could add my uncle to the list. He went in for surgery today and it didn't go so well. Extra organs had to come out, etc. Still just hearing bits and pieces now. But any prayers would be greatly appreciated.
Alouette’ Dear Father..His name in Hebrew is Pinhas ben Rivka. , and he is in congestive heart failure. He is 91 years old, and a WW2 Pacific vet.
Reloadingisnotahobby: Could add my parents?
They're in their 80's and slipping in to ALZ...Simultaneously
Lizard prayers for Beau Biden.
We pray for all our Troops who have died protecting our Freedom.. Comfort the families Dear Lord this morning…
Give strength to all our Armed Forces serving at home or abroad …America thanks you.
God Bless President Obama and his family…
God Bless Israel.. Continue to bless her with prosperity and strength…The land of Milk and Honey…
Thank you Lord..
Amen

182 laZardo  Sun, May 16, 2010 6:58:40am

re: #181 HoosierHoops

Update: Grandma has already passed, and my first cousin whose child I am godfather to committed suicide yesterday.

183 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:00:31am

re: #182 laZardo

Update: Grandma has already passed, and my first cousin whose child I am godfather to committed suicide yesterday.

I'm very sorry

184 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:01:30am

re: #181 HoosierHoops

Update: My mother is still in the hospital. It appears she had a stroke. Her condition has improved markedly in the last 24 hours. Hopefully, she'll be able to come home this week.

185 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:02:28am

In the interest of starting a fight on this otherwise dull thread it looks like Obama may be kicking some serious ass on the economic front (when it comes to job creation numbers at least if not unemployment) if he can keep up the current pace....

[Link: www.washingtonmonthly.com...]

186 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:03:18am

re: #179 sandbox

You wrote

A great statement--however too long for a bumper sticker.

I don't write bump stickers, but "Freedom Ain't Free" also covers it. Once someone comments on the bumper sticker, you can lead the any discussion in the right direction. :)

187 laZardo  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:04:59am

re: #186 Dark_Falcon

I don't write bump stickers, but "Freedom Ain't Free" also covers it. Once someone comments on the bumper sticker, you can lead the any discussion in the right direction. :)

Do you happen to own that pickup truck with the "14CV88" plate number?

///

188 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:05:31am

re: #184 Dark_Falcon

Update: My mother is still in the hospital. It appears she had a stroke. Her condition has improved markedly in the last 24 hours. Hopefully, she'll be able to come home this week.

Thanks..I made the change...Best wishes for you both

189 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:05:43am

re: #185 jamesfirecat

There is a chart? I was out of work for 20 months and might lose my house and all this time there was a chart? I feel silly.

190 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:07:17am

re: #184 Dark_Falcon

Update: My mother is still in the hospital. It appears she had a stroke. Her condition has improved markedly in the last 24 hours. Hopefully, she'll be able to come home this week.

I feel for you. I had to visit my grandmother in a hospital after she had a nasty fall in the sower, and she seemed like she was only half alive.

She's a lot better now though she' still needs help to walk. Seeing it happen to one of your parents must be even worse because you grow up thinking they'll always be there for you...

191 laZardo  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:09:46am

re: #189 Cannadian Club Akbar

There is a chart? I was out of work for 20 months and might lose my house and all this time there was a chart? I feel silly.

It's not a chart, it's a graph!

192 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:09:55am

re: #11 laZardo

Religion.

/there's your problem.

Judaism, which is anti-abortion generally, actually requires an abortion to be performed in this instance.

193 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:10:16am

re: #190 jamesfirecat

I feel for you. I had to visit my grandmother in a hospital after she had a nasty fall in the sower, and she seemed like she was only half alive.

She's a lot better now though she' still needs help to walk. Seeing it happen to one of your parents must be even worse because you grow up thinking they'll always be there for you...

It stinks, no two ways about it. Thank you for your concern and kinds words. This goes for everybody: Thank you.

194 Political Atheist  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:10:37am

re: #185 jamesfirecat

Hack of a chart there. Nice catch James!

195 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:11:10am

re: #189 Cannadian Club Akbar

There is a chart? I was out of work for 20 months and might lose my house and all this time there was a chart? I feel silly.

Hey, like any chart it deals in numbers not in people make of that fact what you will.

196 Political Atheist  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:11:13am

re: #194 Rightwingconspirator

PIMF Heck of a chart.

197 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:14:32am

re: #168 sandbox

I wish him luck, the jihadis ain't gonna like this guy.

They already don't.

198 Girth  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:14:55am

I thought Newt was supposed to be this great thinker, but here he is on Fox News Sunday talking about the liberal secular socialist machine and how they're as great a threat to America as the Soviets or the Nazis were. I've never been a big fan, but he's someone I could at least imagine trying to talk some sense into the right. Disappointing.

199 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:15:19am

re: #174 tigger2005

Rock'n'Roll Jihad...cool name for a Muslim rockfest!

It is quite catchy!

200 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:19:22am

The Islamic name overtook traditional choices like Jack, Thomas and Daniel to become the number one name in the West Midlands, Yorkshire and the Humber, and the North West, as well as in the capital, in 2008.

The figures emerged in a detailed regional breakdown of figures published last week by the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

SNIP

London is not the first European capital to see Mohammed become the number one name for baby boys. In Brussels, Amsterdam, Copenhagen and Oslo the name has already gained the top slot.

SNIP

Other ONS data from its July to September 2008 Labour Force Survey shows the Muslim population is growing 10 times faster than the rest of the population. Last year more than 2.4 million people identified themselves as Muslims, according to the survey's findings, up more than 500,000 in four years. In the same period the number of Christians fell by more than 2 million, to 42.6 million.

201 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:19:33am

It's Sunday Morning and I have to give props to my little dog Winston..
Yesterday I was sitting on the deck soaking up the sun blogging and watching him play...Then a baby bird fell out of his nest.. Winston went running full speed at him..' Oh Dear Lord Winston don't eat the bird!'
Poor little bird was in distress and Winston just sat next to him...It would hop a little bit and Winston would just walk next to him like he was protecting the bird...He acted very sweet and I'm proud of my little dog...

202 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:22:22am
203 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:23:59am

re: #186 Dark_Falcon

I don't write bump stickers, but "Freedom Ain't Free" also covers it. Once someone comments on the bumper sticker, you can lead the any discussion in the right direction. :)

Isn't the same sentiment, just even more to the point, implied in "live free or die"?

204 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:24:00am

Afghan and coalition forces conducted sweeps across Afghanistan that left at least 30 militants dead, while insurgents in the east killed five security guards in an ambush on a vehicle convoy, officials said on Saturday.

Before dawn on Friday, international and Afghan forces carried out an operation in the Sangin district of Helmand province and 10 insurgents were killed, said Daud Ahmadi, a spokesman for the regional governor.

Mullah Mohammed Hassan, a "prominent" Taliban commander who was involved in many insurgent attacks in northern Helmand province, was captured in the Sangin village of Pirqadam Kariz during the raid, Ahmadi said.

SNIP

205 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:27:05am

They are fighting one of the most fervent, successful and rapidly expanding Islamist militias in the world. The government they are fighting for controls an increasingly limited portion of the country's territory. Their political and military leaders are clearly siphoning huge personal profits off international assistance packages meant to aid the military and country at large. Their camps are ghastly, they are provided with no healthcare, and often have to live off international food aid to avoid malnutrition. They are rarely paid their $100 a month salary. They face the real threat of being shot, blown up, tortured or hung on a daily basis.

Despite US training and tens of millions of dollars given to Somalia's Transitional Federal Government (TFG) each year, a number of Somali analysts say soldiers fighting for Somalia's transitional government are deserting and some are joining A-Shabab, a loose association of militant Islamist groups with growing links to al Qaida, whose anti-government insurgency is increasingly successful.

"There is simply no loyalty to the state," Dr. Jack Kalpakian, an expert on Somalia and international security at Al-Akhawayn University told The Media Line. "One of the most effective weapons anyone has in Somalia is cash, so you can get soldiers to turn by simply offering to pay their salary. $100 a month is not chump change in Somalia, and certainly some of the money is getting siphoned off," he said. "What's to stop a soldier from taking $100 a month from the transitional government and then getting another $40 or $50 from A-Shabab and fighting as it pleases him."

SNIP

206 Nervous Norvous  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:27:49am

re: #203 Naso Tang

Isn't the same sentiment, just even more to the point, implied in "live free or die"?

Funny that most that express that sentiment also spend a lot of time complaining about the taxes they pay to provide us with our freedoms.

207 Stonemason  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:30:16am

re: #206 PT Barnum

Funny that most that express that sentiment also spend a lot of time complaining about the taxes they pay to provide us with our freedoms.

Actually, when I complain about taxes I make sure to mention the items that our constitution requires. I am very happy to help pay for those things. It is the others, the social engineering (along with the incredible bloat) that riles many, including my self.

Your broad brush is wrong.

208 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:30:28am

A senior leader of the al-Qaida branch which attempted to assassinate the British ambassador to Sanaa and blow up a US passenger jet last Christmas has been killed in Saudi Arabia, according to a Yemeni source close to the group.

Nayif Mohammed Saeed al-Qahtani, described as the link man between the Saudi and Yemeni branches of al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP), was killed in a shoot-out last month with Saudi security forces, according to a Yemeni journalist, AbdulElah Shaea.

The time and place of Qahtani's death are not yet known, but a member of al-Qaida's leadership in Yemen has confirmed that he was killed and said the group would officially announce the loss in the coming week.

If confirmed, the death of Qahtani, a 24-year-old Saudi, would be the most serious strike against AQAP since President Obama pledged to defeat the group in the wake of the failed airline bombing over Detroit by a Nigerian student trained by al-Qaida in Yemen.

SNIP

Last month President Obama issued a controversial order authorising American forces to kill the US-born Yemeni cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, whom US investigators have tied to the Christmas Day airline plot, the killing of US soldiers at Fort Hood and most recently to the attempted car bombing in New York's Times Square.

209 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:31:14am

re: #203 Naso Tang

Isn't the same sentiment, just even more to the point, implied in "live free or die"?

True that.

210 William of Orange  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:31:29am

If you ever needed one incentive to leave this stone-aged church, this will be the last drop. In my case I never was a member of the Catholic Chruch but if I was this would fill the bucket from the bottom, and it would overflow. And to top it all of, it happened in Arizona. And we all know that strange things happen in that state (though these things were in this case not related).

211 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:32:41am

re: #207 Stonemason

Actually, when I complain about taxes I make sure to mention the items that our constitution requires. I am very happy to help pay for those things. It is the others, the social engineering (along with the incredible bloat) that riles many, including my self.

Your broad brush is wrong.

Just for reference, which items do you feel the constitutions requires and which do you feel it doesn't that we currently spend money on?

212 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:32:46am

re: #207 Stonemason

[Link: www.cagw.org...]

213 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:33:20am
214 William of Orange  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:33:39am

Let them know how you feel.

[Link: www.diocesephoenix.org...]

215 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:34:59am

The State Department wants its next wave of diplomats to learn what Muslims in other countries think of America.

To do that, it is sending a class to Anwar al-Awlaki's former mosque in Falls Church, Va. this Sunday, the Investigative Project on Terrorism has learned.

As we reported Tuesday, federal law enforcement officials view the Dar al-Hijrah mosque as home to Hamas operatives and others linked to terrorist financing and "bad orgs." In addition, it was home for two years to Awlaki, a charismatic, American-born cleric now living in Yemen. He is considered to have been inspirational to the accused Fort Hood shooter Nidal Malik Hasan, failed airplane bomber Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab and Times Square bomber Faizal Shahzad. As a result, he may be the only American the CIA is authorized by the President to kill.

SNIP

While not all mosque members maintain radical views, its leaders and many members have attracted law enforcement scrutiny for years. According to reports between 2002 and 2007 obtained by the IPT through a Freedom of Information Act request, Dar al-Hijrah "has been under numerous investigations for financing and proving (sic) aid and comfort to bad orgs and members." Another report said the mosque was "operating as a front for Hamas operatives in U.S."

SNIP

216 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:35:37am

re: #213 Dark_Falcon

Good riddance. Though I will note the Saudis didn't take action till scum like him started attacking them.

Does a dog scratch another dog's fleas?

218 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:37:28am

Nap time. BBIAB.

219 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:38:06am

The White House on Monday said US President Barack Obama had no plans to attend the annual EU-US summit scheduled for May in Spain.

Washington however stressed that the decision should not be interpreted as a snub to the European Union.

"The president is committed to a strong US-EU partnership, and with Europe in general," National Security Council spokesman Mike Hammer said.

Obama is increasingly facing challenges implementing his domestic reform agenda and has indicated that in 2010 he will spend more time on home soil. His approval ratings in the US have dropped as the economic recovery has been slow to translate onto the job market.

Officials in Brussels reacted with disappointment to the news. "It is normally the case that the summits are summits precisely because they are attended by heads of state and government," EU commission spokeswoman Pia Ahrenkilde Hanson told reporters.

According to newsagency AFP, sources close to the Spanish government have indicated that the summit might be postponed following Washington's announcement. Spain currently holds the rotating EU presidency and is to host the summit.

SNIP

220 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:39:36am

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez confirmed Friday he will not be in Spain next week when leaders of the European Union, Latin America and the Caribbean meet, because Honduras' president will be there.

Chavez had warned earlier that he might stay away from the Madrid conference if Honduran leader Porfirio Lobo attended. Chavez strongly supported former Honduran leader Manuel Zelaya, who was ousted by a coup last June.

SNIP

221 Boogberg  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:40:01am

Anyone following the unrest in Thailand? Who are these "Red Shirts" and what is their major malfunction?

222 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:40:24am

re: #215 MandyManners

The State Department wants its next wave of diplomats to learn what Muslims in other countries think of America.

The State Department is still screwing up by the numbers. They play "Coddle the Totalitarian Radicals" and then whine about how no one respects them. If they showed some principle and backbone, maybe they'd get respect.

223 Stonemason  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:40:30am

re: #211 jamesfirecat

Just for reference, which items do you feel the constitutions requires and which do you feel it doesn't that we currently spend money on?

see comment 212 to start.

Do you want a specific list or can I generalize?

Seriously, that is such a poor argument, how about you find the constitutional requirement for everything the government spends money on?

Have you ever noticed the fact that many 'bills', NCLB for example, are merely suggestions? In other words, if the sate wants the money (and I blame the states for this) they follow the rules. Why does Congress not simply make NCLB a law? Because it wouldn't pass constitutional muster.

224 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:40:51am
225 Renaissance_Man  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:40:58am

re: #221 Boogberg

Anyone following the unrest in Thailand? Who are these "Red Shirts" and what is their major malfunction?

They want hazard pay from Starfleet.

226 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:41:09am

re: #221 Boogberg

Anyone following the unrest in Thailand? Who are these "Red Shirts" and what is their major malfunction?

I think they are marching for that crazy idea of freedom...Who knew?

227 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:41:29am

re: #217 Dark_Falcon

The TNG's army needs to be taken out of the control of Somalis. It needs to be put under direct control of a responsible nation. Given that Uganda has the most effective peacekeepers in the country, I think they should be given command.

Uganda?! Are they sufficiently anti-Jihad?

228 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:42:26am

re: #221 Boogberg

Anyone following the unrest in Thailand? Who are these "Red Shirts" and what is their major malfunction?

Red Shirts are expendable character's in Star Trek who are killed off to place Captain Kirk and other main characters in 'danger' without actually harming them. :D

229 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:43:40am

re: #223 Stonemason

see comment 212 to start.

Do you want a specific list or can I generalize?

Seriously, that is such a poor argument, how about you find the constitutional requirement for everything the government spends money on?

Have you ever noticed the fact that many 'bills', NCLB for example, are merely suggestions? In other words, if the sate wants the money (and I blame the states for this) they follow the rules. Why does Congress not simply make NCLB a law? Because it wouldn't pass constitutional muster.

I'd like specifics.

Go ahead, tell me what kinds of stuff do you feel okay with the government spending money on, what do youw ant them to stop spending money on?

Be as specific as possible.

230 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:44:26am

re: #222 Dark_Falcon

The State Department is still screwing up by the numbers. They play "Coddle the Totalitarian Radicals" and then whine about how no one respects them. If they showed some principle and backbone, maybe they'd get respect.

But, I thought the unclenched fist was a good thing.

231 Boogberg  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:44:27am

re: #226 HoosierHoops

You mean they're not free?

232 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:44:27am

re: #227 MandyManners

Uganda?! Are they sufficiently anti-Jihad?

Yes, they are. Their soldiers actually fight the Islamists in Mogadishu, and win. Their army is competent and reasonable efficient.

233 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:45:25am

re: #230 MandyManners

But, I thought the unclenched fist was a good thing.

You've always known better, its just that the DoS can't seem to learn what you already know.

234 William of Orange  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:45:51am

Statement of the Catholic Diocese...:

PHOENIX (May 14, 2010) — The Most Rev. Thomas J. Olmsted, Bishop of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Phoenix, released the following statement today in response to the acknowledgement by officials at St. Joseph’s Hospital and Medical Center to the media that an unborn child was killed several months ago at St. Joseph’s through a direct abortion:
“I am gravely concerned by the fact that an abortion was performed several months ago in a Catholic hospital in this Diocese. I am further concerned by the hospital’s statement that the termination of a human life was necessary to treat the mother’s underlying medical condition.
“An unborn child is not a disease. While medical professionals should certainly try to save a pregnant mother's life, the means by which they do it can never be by directly killing her unborn child. The end does not justify the means.
“Every Catholic institution is obliged to defend human life at all its stages; from conception to natural death. This obligation is also placed upon every Catholic individual. If a Catholic formally cooperates in the procurement of an abortion, they are automatically excommunicated by that action. The Catholic Church will continue to defend life and proclaim the evil of abortion without compromise, and must act to correct even her own members if they fail in this duty.“We always must remember that when a difficult medical situation involves a pregnant woman, there are two patients in need of treatment and care; not merely one. The unborn child’s life is just as sacred as the mother’s life, and neither life can be preferred over the other. A woman is rightly called ‘mother’ upon the moment of conception and throughout her entire pregnancy is considered to be ‘with child.’
“The direct killing of an unborn child is always immoral, no matter the circumstances, and it cannot be permitted in any institution that claims to be authentically Catholic.

So they think the child was the mother's decease??!! I don't know what the mother's condition but I don't think the mother regarder the child as a desease herself. The only ones who have a decease are the Bishop and the Pope. A desease which stops them thinking rationally and devours them from seeing the priorities. In this case saving the life of the mother....

Bunch of ostriches!!

235 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:45:56am

re: #221 Boogberg

Anyone following the unrest in Thailand? Who are these "Red Shirts" and what is their major malfunction?

Recent articles:
[Link: www.dailytimes.com.pk...]

[Link: www.heraldsun.com.au...]

[Link: www.nzherald.co.nz...]

236 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:46:21am

re: #232 Dark_Falcon

Yes, they are. Their soldiers actually fight the Islamists in Mogadishu, and win. Their army is competent and reasonable efficient.

I didn't know that. Thanks!

237 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:46:48am

re: #233 Dark_Falcon

You've always known better, its just that the DoS can't seem to learn what you already know.

Maybe they need a divorce from a nasty bastard!

238 Obdicut  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:47:18am

re: #200 MandyManners

I think that's some messing with statistics, Mandy. My maths hows that to be about 0.09% of the population.

239 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:49:18am

The lawyer for Clotilde Reiss, the French national who was arrested for allegedly participating in post-election demonstrations in Iran last year, says the 24-year-old will be allowed to leave. A fine of 230,000 euros has reportedly been paid.

Lawyer Mohammad Ali Mahdavi Sabet said a court had issued a ruling that allows Reiss to leave Iran, and that she will soon collect her passport.

“There has been a court verdict which is not an acquittal but will enable her to leave the country," he said.

SNIP

That's not a "fine". That's ransom.

240 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:49:42am

re: #238 Obdicut

I think that's some messing with statistics, Mandy. My maths hows that to be about 0.09% of the population.

I just posted the link. I didn't do the math.

241 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:51:13am

re: #234 William of Orange

Church Doctrine apparently does not permit the direct abortion of a unborn child. They don't make exceptions on that. I feel it is inflexible and cruel, but I do understand it.

242 Boogberg  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:51:20am

re: #235 MandyManners

I read some articles but all I get is some poor people are pissed off at some rich people.

243 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:51:22am

A prominent hardline Iranian cleric who said promiscuity and immodest dress cause earthquakes says God may be holding off on natural disasters in the West in order to let people sin more and therefore consign themselves to hell.

Kazem Sedighi sparked widespread derision with his pronouncements in a prayer sermon last month linking earthquakes with women's dress. In a new sermon yesterday, he has defended and elaborated on his claim.

SNIP

244 laZardo  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:51:24am

re: #232 Dark_Falcon

Yes, they are. Their soldiers actually fight the Islamists in Mogadishu, and win. Their army is competent and reasonable efficient.

Thanks to Idi Amin, anyway.

245 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:52:14am

re: #242 Boogberg

I read some articles but all I get is some poor people are pissed off at some rich people.

Pretty much sums it up from what I've read. However, not all who are revolting are poor. A defecting Thai general was shot in the head late last week.

246 laZardo  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:52:22am

re: #243 MandyManners

A prominent hardline Iranian cleric who said promiscuity and immodest dress cause earthquakes says God may be holding off on natural disasters in the West in order to let people sin more and therefore consign themselves to hell.

Kazem Sedighi sparked widespread derision with his pronouncements in a prayer sermon last month linking earthquakes with women's dress. In a new sermon yesterday, he has defended and elaborated on his claim.

SNIP

Does this mean Lady GaGa caused the European Ash Cloud of Death? q;

247 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:53:01am

re: #237 MandyManners

Maybe they need a divorce from a nasty bastard!

Well, in your case motherhood, and the consequent imperative to protect your son, also play a role. But I think that you a ultimately simply more steadfast than they are.

248 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:54:26am

The issue of whether Saudi women should be allowed to drive came to the surface once more during a television program broadcast on the Al-Arabiya news channel.

Presenter Daud Al-Shriyan addressed the oft-debated issue of Saudi women driving in his program, Wajih Al-Sahafah (which means “Face the Press”), along with his guest Sheikh Ahmad Bin Baz, an Islamic affairs researcher and lecturer and the son of the Kingdom’s late former grand mufti, Sheikh Abdul Aziz Bin Baz.

Sheikh Abdul Aziz, who supports women driving, said the reasons behind stopping women from driving no longer exists. He added that a fatwa on the matter, issued by the Council of Senior Islamic Scholars, was given in a particular context in the early 1990s, a time when there was much upheaval in the region, including the Gulf War, Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait and the arrival of US forces, something that some conservatives described as an American invasion.

He added that it was at this time that the actions of a small group of women who got into cars and drove around was rejected by these conservatives who viewed their actions as intimidating and a move away from the Islamic status quo. Sheikh Abdul Aziz added that the issue of women driving should not be viewed through a fatwa but as a general “right.”

SNIP

249 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:54:53am

re: #246 laZardo

Does this mean Lady GaGa caused the European Ash Cloud of Death? q;

Don't volcanoes resemble boobs?

250 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:55:09am

re: #247 Dark_Falcon

Well, in your case motherhood, and the consequent imperative to protect your son, also play a role. But I think that you a ultimately simply more steadfast than they are.

*smooch*

251 Stonemason  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:55:46am

re: #229 jamesfirecat

Defense spending (without the bloat), spending to treat those who have served in the military.

Federal level, remember that word, Federal.

The judiciary, the Congress, and the executive branch of government, and the smallest possible staff to run those offices, NOT the staffs as they exist now.

There is no constitutional call for many of the departments and agencies.

I'm done. Those are what the constitution calls for, the rest is up to the states and the people to figure out.

Protect our borders, settle disputes, and oversee trade.

Now, your turn, find me the constitutional provision for, oh, the John Murtha Medical Building...
The Woodstock Museum
Heck, a favorite hereat LGF, the Department of Education
Or, how about the National Endowment for the Arts...

252 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:57:05am

A Pakistani student arrested at the US embassy in Chile after triggering a bomb detector has been charged with illegal possession of explosives.

The man, identified by the US state department as Muhammad Saif-ur-Rehman Khan, had been detained under anti-terrorism laws since the incident.

Police said traces of the explosive, Tetryl, had been found on documents and a mobile phone in his possession.

Mr Khan denies any wrongdoing and has been freed pending an investigation.

He earlier blamed the US for his detention after being taken into custody last Monday.

"I have nothing to do with bombs. I have nothing to do with terrorists. I don't have a beard," he told reporters on Tuesday.

SNIP

Oh, well, let's let him go!

253 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:57:57am

re: #244 laZardo

Thanks to Idi Amin, anyway.

Actually, no. It is the current president Yoweri Moseveni who reorganized the army and made it a real fighting force, rather than simply an agent of repression. Since he's been in charge, Uganda has had a real army with real soldiers.

254 laZardo  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:58:22am

re: #249 MandyManners

Don't volcanoes resemble boobs?

I'd hate to be the girl with boobs shaped like these.

255 laZardo  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:58:51am

re: #253 Dark_Falcon

Actually, no. It is the current president Yoweri Moseveni who reorganized the army and made it a real fighting force, rather than simply an agent of repression. Since he's been in charge, Uganda has had a real army with real soldiers.

And a law condemning homosexuals to death.

256 kirkspencer  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:59:27am

re: #233 Dark_Falcon

You've always known better, its just that the DoS can't seem to learn what you already know.

OK, I've time, I'll take on the devil's advocate position here.

Let's begin with the fact that there are only two departments wholly concerned with international relations -- the departments of State and of Defense. There are times they will be congruent in behavior but in general the entire mindset is different. Not least, State's job is to try to ensure Defense is not necessary. Defense's job is to be ready when State can't negate the necessity. Secondarily, Defense's job is to be the "bad cop" standing ready to which State can point and say, "you can deal with me or you can deal with him." At the same time, State's secondary job is to provide Defense with intel needed for warfighting.

An interjection. Years ago I was taught by a smart Mustang: To win battles, learn tactics; to win campaigns, learn logistics; to win wars, learn politics. In this context, State's job is to know why the other guy might or is fighting and where their political nodes might be. For example, some foes will give up if their capital falls. Others will fight on regardless of the status of that city.

This, then, gives us a good reason for State to send some of its people to Dar al-Hijrah mosque. It creates institutional knowledge of that organization. That institutional knowledge gives State a better chance of developing a worthwhile peace, knowing if such a peace is possible or if war is needed instead, and giving Defense the insights necessary to make effective strategic objectives.

257 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:00:17am

re: #251 Stonemason

Defense spending (without the bloat), spending to treat those who have served in the military.

Federal level, remember that word, Federal.

The judiciary, the Congress, and the executive branch of government, and the smallest possible staff to run those offices, NOT the staffs as they exist now.

There is no constitutional call for many of the departments and agencies.

I'm done. Those are what the constitution calls for, the rest is up to the states and the people to figure out.

Protect our borders, settle disputes, and oversee trade.

Now, your turn, find me the constitutional provision for, oh, the John Murtha Medical Building...
The Woodstock Museum
Heck, a favorite hereat LGF, the Department of Education
Or, how about the National Endowment for the Arts...

What do you mean by "my turn" I only have to find constitutional provisions for those items if I accept your point of view that we only fund what the constitution directly calls for.

I consider the department of education part of the plan of either "promote the general Welfare," or "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity," since having an informed and educated population is good for everybody and helps make America a great nation.

Or how about this? Would you be happy if we started making constitutional amendments for every new thing we want to fund?

258 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:00:33am

Top military officials have continued to rely on a secret network of private spies who have produced hundreds of reports from deep inside Afghanistan and Pakistan, according to American officials and businessmen, despite concerns among some in the military about the legality of the operation.

Earlier this year, government officials admitted that the military had sent a group of former Central Intelligence Agency officers and retired Special Operations troops into the region to collect information — some of which was used to track and kill people suspected of being militants. Many portrayed it as a rogue operation that had been hastily shut down once an investigation began.

But interviews with more than a dozen current and former government officials and businessmen, and an examination of government documents, tell a different a story. Not only are the networks still operating, their detailed reports on subjects like the workings of the Taliban leadership in Pakistan and the movements of enemy fighters in southern Afghanistan are also submitted almost daily to top commanders and have become an important source of intelligence.

SNIP

259 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:01:10am

re: #254 laZardo

I'd hate to be the girl with boobs shaped like these.

Gee. Talk about erect nipples!

260 compound idaho  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:01:11am

re: #210 William of Orange

If you ever needed one incentive to leave this stone-aged church, this will be the last drop. In my case I never was a member of the Catholic Chruch but if I was this would fill the bucket from the bottom, and it would overflow. And to top it all of, it happened in Arizona. And we all know that strange things happen in that state (though these things were in this case not related).

It looks like the Church may have done the minimum and also keep their position regarding abortion. They did not stop the procedure and the only discipline was one "reassignment" within the hospital (whatever that means). They would not comment if any other actions were taken. I guess the could have simply looked the other way, but that would have surprised me. Imagine of word got out.

261 Dark_Falcon  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:03:04am

re: #255 laZardo

And a law condemning homosexuals to death.

I oppose that law, and have from the moment I learned of it. I'm just pointing out that despite its problems, Uganda does have real army and they do fight the good fight against the jihadis in Somalia. To that fighting, I want them to develop a better commitment to freedom as well.

I'm out, BBL.

262 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:06:02am

A white supremacist was jailed for 10 years Friday after he became the first person in Britain to be convicted of manufacturing a deadly chemical weapon, which he kept in a jar in his kitchen.

He was a leading member of the ASF which was a neo-Nazi organization dedicated to using violence," prosecutor Andrew Edis told Newcastle Crown Court.

"The purpose of the violence was the creation of an international Aryan group who would establish white supremacy in white countries.

"They were followers of the ideology of Adolf Hitler, who they revered, and whose work Mein Kampf was among many available on their website."

SNIP

264 Stonemason  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:10:19am

re: #257 jamesfirecat

Or how about this? Would you be happy if we started making constitutional amendments for every new thing we want to fund?

Actually,yes, that would be great. Can we drop everything?

And, according to your position, is seems that you think the Federal Government can spend money on anything.

the wording you used is from the preamble, those are reasons for the following, not actually part of the constitution, but, for the sake of argument, I wil allow them.

Due to the fact that the preamble only calls for ...the Blessings of Liberty for ourselves and our posterity,..." we need to remove anyone that is not directly related to those who were in the United States at the time the Constitution was written. Or is there an amendment for that?

Also notice, please, it says: establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for common defense, and secure the above blessings. All of those words can infer supplying those ideals. However, promote the general welfare means the government can talk about it, (suggest it, as I pointed out in my other post, NCLB is not a law, it can not be, it is a mandate).

And yes, you do need to find constitutional backing for the things I asked about, you are the one who claims they are constitutional, not me.

265 McSpiff  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:11:15am

re: #241 Dark_Falcon

Church Doctrine apparently does not permit the direct abortion of a unborn child. They don't make exceptions on that. I feel it is inflexible and cruel, but I do understand it.

And with respect to the whole excommunication thing... From what I remember from many moons ago(Any practicing Catholics feel free to jump in):

Basically, the view of the Catholic Church is that there are certain sins, that by committing them you place yourself outside of the church. Abortion is one of these. The church views excommunication as something the individual causes between themselves and God, and that the Church, by denying them access to the rites, is essentially protecting itself.

So most excommunication is automatic. A priest technically cannot lift an excommunication. However, most 'normal' excommunications can be lifted by a Bishop or a Priest that has been empowered to do so (I believe general practice says the excommunication caused by abortion can be lifted by any priest but don't quote me on that). Only a few are reserved for the Pope, mainly concerning heresy.

This later category is what I think most people think of when they think excommunication. Since the sin is complex to determine if it actually occurred (what is and isn't heresy), the fact that the excommunication has occurred is generally conveyed by something resembling a court, usually under the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith IIRC (The Pope's old office). So in these cases, excommunication resembles a punishment. Technically it is not, its merely the Church clarifying the situation.

Again, that's all from memory so if anyone else has a better grasp on these things, jump in.

266 Boogberg  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:12:08am

re: #263 MandyManners

No one will ever accuse the Russians of being PC. :D

267 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:12:59am

In May 1945, US pilots embarked on hundreds of reconnaissance flights, aboard the same bombers which had razed much of Germany to the ground. Instead of launching bombs, however, they shot photographs, creating a hard-hitting portrait of their trail of destruction.

The instructions from the commanders of the 8th US Air Force were clear: Only the best and most experienced pilots were to be used on this special mission, which was taking place at the end of World War II. Hundreds of bombers, including B-24 Liberators, B-17 Flying Fortresses and B-26s, were going to thunder low through the air over Germany -- for six consecutive days.


The selected pilots were not, however, going to unleash their firepower on Hitler's broken empire, nor attack German armories, nor reduce cities to rubble. In fact not a single bomb was dropped. The aircrafts' crews did shoot -- but only aerial photographs. They created a photographic record of a defeated Germany, taking thousands of pictures, sometimes in impressive quality.

It was May 7, 1945. Germany had just signed documents for its unconditional surrender, which would come into effect the following day. The war was over -- and the Allies wanted to create an accurate impression of the extent of the destruction, taken from the planes that only a few weeks before had scattered deadly bombs across Germany.

SNIP

Defeat's a bitch.

268 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:13:28am

re: #266 Boogberg

No one will ever accuse the Russians of being PC. :D

Russians?

269 McSpiff  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:13:37am

re: #266 Boogberg

No one will ever accuse the Russians of being PC. :D

Or a civil society.

270 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:14:59am

re: #264 Stonemason

Actually,yes, that would be great. Can we drop everything?

And, according to your position, is seems that you think the Federal Government can spend money on anything.

the wording you used is from the preamble, those are reasons for the following, not actually part of the constitution, but, for the sake of argument, I wil allow them.

Due to the fact that the preamble only calls for ...the Blessings of Liberty for ourselves and our posterity,..." we need to remove anyone that is not directly related to those who were in the United States at the time the Constitution was written. Or is there an amendment for that?

Also notice, please, it says: establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for common defense, and secure the above blessings. All of those words can infer supplying those ideals. However, promote the general welfare means the government can talk about it, (suggest it, as I pointed out in my other post, NCLB is not a law, it can not be, it is a mandate).

And yes, you do need to find constitutional backing for the things I asked about, you are the one who claims they are constitutional, not me.

I think that the government can spend our money on anything that gets a good return per dollar spent.

When the military spends $14 billion and 18 years working on the R&D for a troop transport that doesn't have room for troops, a scout that is too big and to slow for proper scouting, and a tank killing vehicle with armor that emits deadly fumes when struck by enemy fire, clearly something is wrong.

When it manages to help insure that old people can retire at a reasonable age and live out the rest of their lives in relative comfort, it is doing something right.

I think the government needs to listen to the people, find out what they want, and then find a way to fund it.

271 laZardo  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:15:52am
272 Boogberg  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:16:10am

re: #268 MandyManners

Isn't Siberia still part of the Russian Federation?

273 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:16:59am

Elena Kagan could not resist the laugh line.

Justice Sonia Sotomayor had just posed a hypothetical about the law barring "material support" for terrorism-related organizations, at issue that day. Would the law cover "teaching these members to play the harmonica," Sotomayor asked.

As solicitor general, even a new one, Kagan had to know the unspoken rule about hypotheticals: Don't fight them; don't say "that's not my case."

But the droll faculty dean in her could not contain itself. "The first thing I would say is there are not a whole lot of people going around trying to teach al-Qaeda how to play harmonicas," Kagan said. Kagan must have forgotten that former professor Antonin Scalia was in the room, eager to pounce. "Well, Mohammed Atta and his harmonica quartet might tour the country and make a lot of money," Justice Scalia said.

He got the laughter, and Kagan saw the need for damage control. "I'm sorry," she said. "I don't mean to make fun of the hypothetical at all, Justice Sotomayor, because I think you're raising an important point."

Crisis over, Kagan resumed her argument in Holder v. Humanitarian Law Project (pdf). It was one of a number of missteps she made in the six oral arguments in which she participated during her rookie year as solicitor general. She had never made an appellate argument before becoming SG but was confident and comfortable at the podium from day one. Still, Kagan at times managed to annoy Chief Justice John Roberts Jr. and leave other justices unsatisfied.

SNIP

274 McSpiff  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:18:21am

re: #271 laZardo

At least they know how best to deal with Somali pirates.

O I agree, they know how to handle what they view as enemies. Today that's Islamic terrorists and pirates. Problem with Russia, there's no way of saying who tomorrow's enemy will be.

275 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:18:28am

re: #272 Boogberg

Isn't Siberia still part of the Russian Federation?

Oh, for fuck's sake. I misread it as "Serbia".

276 laZardo  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:20:06am

New Third Reich Monument in Berlin: Revealing the Young Bureaucrats Behind the Nazi Terror

Who exactly were the men who planned and administered the Nazi crimes? The new "Topography of Terror" documentation center opened on Thursday in Berlin at the site of the former Gestapo and SS headquarters. It reveals the faces of the almost unknown perpetrators of the Holocaust.

The index cards cover an entire wall, several hundred of them in pink, beige or green, containing names, dates of birth and handwritten notes. They are the details of some of the 7,000 former employees of the Reichssicherheitshauptamt, the amalgamation of the feared SS paramilitary group and Gestapo secret police force -- the men who worked at the very epicenter of the Nazi terror regime.

SNIP

The banality of evil.

277 Boogberg  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:21:17am

re: #275 MandyManners

Lol! :D

No worries. :)

278 Stonemason  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:21:33am

re: #270 jamesfirecat

When the military spends $14 billion and 18 years working on the R&D for a troop transport that doesn't have room for troops, a scout that is too big and to slow for proper scouting, and a tank killing vehicle with armor that emits deadly fumes when struck by enemy fire, clearly something is wrong.


I agree, there is entirely too much waste.

When it manages to help insure that old people can retire at a reasonable age and live out the rest of their lives in relative comfort, it is doing something right.


Nice to think about, this is not in the constitution. Perhaps tighter reigns on many of the financial institutions that 'buy' all politicians could help, but, perhaps a return to being responsible for your children because in your old age they will take care of you would be a better way.

I think the government needs to listen to the people, find out what they want, and then find a way to fund it.

There were many polls done prior to the healthcare vote, many of those polls showed that the American people did not want the legislation as passed (both on the left and the right for different reasons of course), but it passed anyway.
If I am not mistaken, you were arguing for Congress to ignore the people and pass it.

279 iceweasel  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:23:08am

re: #273 MandyManners

Elena Kagan could not resist the laugh line.

Also from your link (I notice you changed the title, too):

Lawyers interviewed last week were uniformly positive in their appraisal of her oral advocacy.

"She is clearly self-confident, reasonably conversational and she doesn't back down when the justices come back at her," said veteran Carter Phillips of Sidley Austin. "Top-notch in style and substance," said Arnold & Porter's Lisa Blatt, who dismissed the notion of antagonism between Kagan and Roberts. "He likes to play. He's so used to being an advocate, he likes to joust," Blatt said.

Even Kagan's adversaries offered praise, though tempered by their disagreement over the cases they argued. "I think she did a good job with the cards she was dealt -- defending a statute that is extraordinarily broad and vague," said Georgetown University Law Center professor David Cole, who argued against her in the "material support" case. Kagan did not shade difficult parts of her case, acknowledging at one point that the law might bar a lawyer from writing an amicus brief before the Court -- an admission that seemed to disturb several justices.

"She was very professional, perfectly congenial," said Jones Day's Michael Carvin, who argued against her in Free Enterprise Fund v. Public Company Accounting Oversight Board, a key separation of powers case. But he added, "She wasn't answering the tough questions."
...
In the Robertson case, Kagan violated the cardinal rule against answering a question with a question -- a question from Scalia, no less. "Well, I'm not making the argument," Scalia sputtered. Roberts chimed in, "Usually we have questions the other way."

Again Kagan apologized for her indiscretion. But soon she may have the last laugh. Next fall, if confirmed, she gets to ask the questions.


:)

280 Stonemason  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:23:47am

re: #270 jamesfirecat

I think that the government can spend our money on anything that gets a good return per dollar spent.


Can you please back that up with the constitution, because I think there is very little human causation for the current warming trend, but every time I say it, I am asked for proof (as I should be, and I can't find any so I don't say it anymore).

281 McSpiff  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:24:28am

re: #279 iceweasel

You're always a breath of fresh air ice.

282 laZardo  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:26:59am

re: #281 McSpiff

You're always a breath of fresh air ice.

Minty.

283 McSpiff  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:27:06am

re: #280 Stonemason

I updinged you because I agree, spending should be within constitutional limits. We might disagree on what those limits are but I think james was off, so good on ya for asking for clarification. Didn't upding the anti-science part.

284 iceweasel  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:27:36am

re: #281 McSpiff

You're always a breath of fresh air ice.

Just doing my part to spread sunshine and joy, every day in every way. /

What's new?

285 simonml  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:27:38am

For what its worth, pulmonary hypertension can be treated during pregnancy with a variety of medications. I am unable to find a case report of an early gestation such as this causing an acute exacerbation in pulmonary hypertension (even preexisting). Obviously the article leaves out a lot of patient information for privacy reasons but it makes me wonder if this abortion was really medically necessary.

IMO someone with a severe condition such as primary pulmonary hypertension shouldn't have gotten pregnant in the first place. No reason to kill a fetus for mom's mistake. By the same token there's no reason to kill mom for her mistake either. Rock and a hard place.

286 McSpiff  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:29:35am

re: #284 iceweasel

Just doing my part to spread sunshine and joy, every day in every way. /

What's new?

Laying in bed, being hung over. Most of my friends are graduating, so its been non-stop going away parties. Basically an excellent Sunday morning :)

287 Lidane  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:30:54am

Completely OT, but the batshit on display is hilarious:

288 Boogberg  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:31:34am

Man I sure wish someone would fix me breakfast.

289 laZardo  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:33:19am

Gonna head to bed. Nighty.

290 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:34:31am

re: #278 Stonemason

There were many polls done prior to the healthcare vote, many of those polls showed that the American people did not want the legislation as passed (both on the left and the right for different reasons of course), but it passed anyway.
If I am not mistaken, you were arguing for Congress to ignore the people and pass it.

This is clearly going to be a long drawn out argument, so lets shelve it for another day until there are more people here paying attention /on a more related thread, because the more people participating in an argument the more information and knowledge that is getting passed around.

Sound good?

291 Kronocide  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:34:51am

Any well known flouncers in the last month? Been off the LGF for a while.

292 McSpiff  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:36:18am

re: #285 simonml

It can also become apparent only during pregnancy, and even with medication be extremely touch and go. I'm not going to question the doctors in this case.

293 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:36:27am

re: #291 BigPapa

Any well known flouncers in the last month? Been off the LGF for a while.

Nope...I think most of them jumped off the cliff last year...
How is Hawaii this morning?

294 iceweasel  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:36:49am

re: #286 McSpiff

Laying in bed, being hung over. Most of my friends are graduating, so its been non-stop going away parties. Basically an excellent Sunday morning :)

Sounds terrific!

re: #287 Lidane

Completely OT, but the batshit on display is hilarious:


[Video]

Most awesome. :)

295 Vicious Babushka  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:37:00am

Well honcos, I am going to bake my Super Awesome To Die For Cheesecake. (recipe is in the new cookbook)

Post a picture when I'm done. :)

296 Boogberg  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:38:12am

BTW, what happened to the fruit cup lady?

297 simonml  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:38:29am

re: #292 McSpiff

It can also become apparent only during pregnancy, and even with medication be extremely touch and go. I'm not going to question the doctors in this case.

Definitely. Without more information we can't say whether it was right or wrong. I was just saying that if this mom knew she had this problem she probably should not have gotten pregnant.

298 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:39:14am

re: #278 Stonemason

There were many polls done prior to the healthcare vote, many of those polls showed that the American people did not want the legislation as passed (both on the left and the right for different reasons of course), but it passed anyway.
If I am not mistaken, you were arguing for Congress to ignore the people and pass it.

If I am not mistaken you are arguing for government by pollsters.

299 iceweasel  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:39:26am

re: #296 Boogberg

BTW, what happened to the fruit cup lady?

Buggered off to a stalker site.

300 McSpiff  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:40:07am

re: #297 simonml

Definitely. Without more information we can't say whether it was right or wrong. I was just saying that if this mom knew she had this problem she probably should not have gotten pregnant.

Totally agreed.

301 McSpiff  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:40:34am

re: #296 Boogberg

BTW, what happened to the fruit cup lady?

Haha who was the fruit cup lady? Not the bunny?

302 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:41:30am

re: #276 laZardo

New Third Reich Monument in Berlin: Revealing the Young Bureaucrats Behind the Nazi Terror


SNIP

The banality of evil.

Is that you, Hannah?

303 compound idaho  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:41:51am

re: #285 simonml

Doesn't change the difficult moral issues, but it might be good advise to avoid a Catholic hospital during a problem pregnancy.

304 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:42:05am

re: #277 Boogberg

Lol! :D

No worries. :)

I even watched the darn thing and STILL didn't catch a clue.

305 Boogberg  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:42:12am

re: #299 iceweasel

No shit? Wow. That fruit cup bit was almost iconic.

306 simonml  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:42:42am

re: #303 compound idaho

Doesn't change the difficult moral issues, but it might be good advise to avoid a Catholic hospital during a problem pregnancy.

Well put. Stay away from hospitals with a Saint in the name. haha

307 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:44:24am

re: #303 compound idaho

Doesn't change the difficult moral issues, but it might be good advise to avoid a Catholic hospital during a problem pregnancy.

...During any pregnancy, since it is often in hospitals that problems are found. That of course applies to those not calling themselves catholic, or otherwise disagreeing with this dogma.

308 iceweasel  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:44:26am

re: #305 Boogberg

No shit? Wow. That fruit cup bit was almost iconic.

Actually, she buggered off with a couple of likeminded morons to found a stalker site. Good riddance.

309 iceweasel  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:46:27am

re: #307 Naso Tang

...During any pregnancy, since it is often in hospitals that problems are found. That of course applies to those not calling themselves catholic, or otherwise disagreeing with this dogma.

Sometimes a Catholic hospital is the nearest one, though.

BTW, Catholic hospitals will also refuse emergency contraception to rape victims in their emergency rooms. Lieberman supported permitting them to do that in CT anyway.

310 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:46:44am

re: #305 Boogberg

No shit? Wow. That fruit cup bit was almost iconic.

That went down a year ago..where have you been? And I guess..Welcome back..*wink*

311 Boogberg  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:51:25am

re: #310 HoosierHoops

Thanks. I started playing the stock market around that time and kinda dropped off the face of the Earth.

312 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:51:49am

re: #309 iceweasel

Excuse the cynicism, but one has to wonder if "catholic" hospitals are not in this business first because of the opportunity it allows for making decisions about other people's lives.

313 Stonemason  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:53:44am

re: #283 McSpiff

I updinged you because I agree, spending should be within constitutional limits. We might disagree on what those limits are but I think james was off, so good on ya for asking for clarification. Didn't upding the anti-science part.

I am not anti-science, not in anyway. Just to clarify.

314 iceweasel  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:55:25am

re: #312 Naso Tang

Excuse the cynicism, but one has to wonder if "catholic" hospitals are not in this business first because of the opportunity it allows for making decisions about other people's lives.

That's the religion business itself, and is not peculiar to the hospitals, unfortunately. It's just that the hospital end of it deals with mortality itself and not merely how you live your life.

315 compound idaho  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:55:42am

re: #312 Naso Tang

Excuse the cynicism, but one has to wonder if "catholic" hospitals are not in this business first because of the opportunity it allows for making decisions about other people's lives.

Wow! That is cynical

316 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:57:00am

Hong Kong on Sunday held by-elections triggered by pro-democracy lawmakers seeking to pressure Beijing into speeding up the pace of electoral reform in the territory.

The election, which has angered Beijing and divided the city's democracy movement, comes after five lawmakers from the Legislative Council quit in January in a bid to force a de facto referendum on reform.

Frustrated by what they consider China's intransigence, the lawmakers had hoped that their re-election would send the strongest message yet to Beijing since Hong Kong returned to Chinese rule in 1997.

However, the outcome of the vote is seen as academic since all pro-Beijing political parties have boycotted the process.

Under the current system, only half of Hong Kong's 60-seat legislature is directly elected while the rest is selected by the pro-China business elite. Campaigners want the entire parliament to be directly elected.

They also want voters to be able to choose the city's chief executive, who is currently appointed by a Beijing-friendly election committee.

Beijing has said that, at the earliest, Hong Kong's chief executive can be directly elected by 2017 and the legislature by 2020.

SNIP

I wonder if BHO likes Hong Kong's infrastructure.

317 simonml  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:57:16am

re: #312 Naso Tang

Excuse the cynicism, but one has to wonder if "catholic" hospitals are not in this business first because of the opportunity it allows for making decisions about other people's lives.

That statement could be made about any physician since doctors are often left to make difficult decisions for patients (ie amputating an arm, hysterectomy, etc.) I think Catholics are "in this business" b/c the Catholic Church has always been "in the business" of medical care. Remember that Jesus guy healing the sick?

318 Stonemason  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:57:25am

re: #298 Naso Tang

If I am not mistaken you are arguing for government by pollsters.


Not me, I am not the one who wrote "I think the government needs to listen to the people, find out what they want, and then find a way to fund it." James wrote that.
I was countering that statement by pointing out where he championed a position that was opposite of the American people.

I think polls are slanted, every one of them.

319 Lidane  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:58:38am

re: #317 simonml

Last time I checked, Jesus was much bigger than the Catholic Church.

320 iceweasel  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:58:59am

NRA Members Disagree With NRA Leadership: Those On Terrorist Watch List Should Not Be Able To Buy Firearms

A recent Government Accountability Office (GAO) report found that individuals on the federal terrorist watch list were able to purchase firearms and explosives from licensed U.S. dealers 1,119 times. New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg (I) told the Senate Homeland Security Committee this month that Congress should close this “terror gap” in the nation’s gun laws. “If society decides that these people are too dangerous to get on an airplane with other people, then it’s probably appropriate to look very hard before you let them buy a gun,” he said.

During the hearing, Bloomberg actually encountered some GOP opposition to this seemingly noncontroversial suggestion. Moreover, the NRA strongly objects to closing the “terror gap,” calling legislation dealing with the issue “21st Century McCarthyism.” Bloomberg is “abusing the word ‘terrorist’ to resurrect and pursue a gun-control agenda,” an NRA spokesperson said.

But it appears that rank-and-file NRA members disagree with their leadership. Today at the NRA’s annual conference in Charlotte, NC, ThinkProgress asked dozens of NRA members if those on the terrorist watch list should be able to purchase firearms and an overwhelming majority agreed with Bloomberg on the need to close the “terror gap.”


Reminder: only the NRA and the GOP can be trusted to deal seriously with national security. /

321 A Man for all Seasons  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:59:12am

re: #312 Naso Tang

Excuse the cynicism, but one has to wonder if "catholic" hospitals are not in this business first because of the opportunity it allows for making decisions about other people's lives.

All but one of my kids have been Born at the Queen of the Valley in Napa..I think that is an unfair characterization.. I have had real issues about Catholic hospitals and have posted them here...But I feel you have over generalized

322 simonml  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:59:20am

re: #319 Lidane

Last time I checked, Jesus was much bigger than the Catholic Church.

Definitely. But wasn't he the beginning of the Catholic Church? His buddies Peter and Paul started it

323 Kronocide  Sun, May 16, 2010 8:59:51am

re: #293 HoosierHoops

Nope...I think most of them jumped off the cliff last year...
How is Hawaii this morning?

Hawaii is placid right now, just before sunup. Going to play some whackfuck today (aka golf).

324 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:01:08am

"Don't be evil" has gone all 1984 on us. Or so it seems after Google revealed Friday that its Street View cars, in addition to snapping photos of the world's roadways, have also been collecting sensitive personal information from unencrypted wireless networks.

It was no secret that Google's cars had already been collecting publicly broadcast SSID information (Wi-Fi network names) and MAC addresses (unique numbers for devices like Wi-Fi routers). But this techie data, which is used for location-based services such as Google Maps, didn't include any "payload data," or personal information sent over the network.

Or so "Big Brother" Google claimed on April 27. But yesterday the search behemoth 'fessed up to a security gaffe of Orwellian proportions. Due to a piece of code written in 2006 by an engineer for an experimental Wi-Fi project, Google had in fact been collecting those private bits after all:

SNIP

325 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:02:57am

re: #318 Stonemason

Not me, I am not the one who wrote "I think the government needs to listen to the people, find out what they want, and then find a way to fund it." James wrote that.
I was countering that statement by pointing out where he championed a position that was opposite of the American people.

I think polls are slanted, every one of them.

Just to clarify I believe we live in a representative democracy so the people don't get directly what they want.

If so many people hated the bill so much how did we end up electing so many senators who were for it?

326 compound idaho  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:05:19am

re: #322 simonml

Definitely. But wasn't he the beginning of the Catholic Church? His buddies Peter and Paul started it

You forgot Mary

The trio was composed of Peter Yarrow, Paul Stookey, and Mary Travers.

327 Stonemason  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:08:22am

re: #325 jamesfirecat

Just to clarify I believe we live in a representative democracy so the people don't get directly what they want.

If so many people hated the bill so much how did we end up electing so many senators who were for it?

Those on the right of the spectrum voted in representatives that would fight the bill, and were, for the most part, rewarded. Those on the left voted in representatives that would give them 'free' healthcare, and and now upset that the bill did not go far enough. I am well aware of these facts, but when you add the two groups together you get a percentage that is a majority of the population.

So, in the case of the insurance reform bill, which is a mandate by the way, not a law, I am not sure how the fine for not having insurance is going to pass, most likely by being called a tax, only one side was hurt, the left of the spectrum. Those on the right got what they voted for, opposition to a bill, that if it was called a law, would be unconstitutional.

328 iceweasel  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:08:52am

More reproductive rights bullshit attacks:
Missouri House Passes Abortion Restriction Bill

The Missouri State House started its last day of the session on an anti-choice foot by passing the Abortion Restriction Bill. This omnibus bill, which contains additional restrictions on top of the state's current 24 hour waiting period and informed consent process, passed by a vote of 114-39.

Under the new law, physicians are required to repeat medically inaccurate statements to the patient prior to the procedure and all informed consent processes must be done face to face, adding to the length of time required to obtain an abortion. Abortions will no longer be included in any private health care plans in the state, regardless of whether or not a woman would have paid for the coverage with separate funds. Also, clinics will be required to put up signs that read that the state will provide support for mothers who decide to continue their pregnancies, although the state does not at this time have resources in place to give to these mothers.

329 Obdicut  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:11:16am

re: #328 iceweasel

Because lying to a pregnant woman that you'll take care of her child is so goddamn awesome.

330 What, me worry?  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:12:11am

re: #309 iceweasel

There's definitely details we don't know. From the article:

The actions involving the administrator, mostly taken within the past couple of weeks, followed a last-minute, life-or-death drama in late 2009.

So the woman needed emergency surgery and pulmonary hypertension during pregnancy carries a high mortality rate.

[Link: jrsm.rsmjournals.com...]

In a recent overview4 the maternal mortality of primary pulmonary hypertension in pregnancy was said to be 30%, and it was as high as 56% in an earlier study5. Most of the deaths were in the third trimester, with the highest risk in the first 10 days postpartum. In view of the high maternal mortality, preconceptional counselling is of vital importance if feasible. In cases of unplanned pregnancy or diagnosis early in pregnancy, termination should be considered3. If pregnancy is to be continued, further management will require a multidisciplinary team.

Also [Link: chestjournal.chestpubs.org...]

While pulmonary hypertension can be treated "PPH is likely to worsen during labor and delivery, resulting in a high maternal mortality rate." Terminating a pregnancy because of PPH would be a valid medical procedure.

331 iceweasel  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:12:27am

re: #329 Obdicut

Because lying to a pregnant woman that you'll take care of her child is so goddamn awesome.

I think we can all let go of the fiction that any of these provisions are about 'informing' women or 'helping' women.

332 Lidane  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:13:13am

re: #322 simonml

Definitely. But wasn't he the beginning of the Catholic Church? His buddies Peter and Paul started it

If you believe in Catholic teachings, then yes. The Church considers him the beginning of their faith.

However, I'm an ex-Catholic who is now an atheist. My opinion on the matter is slightly different.

333 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:14:32am

re: #327 Stonemason

Those on the right of the spectrum voted in representatives that would fight the bill, and were, for the most part, rewarded. Those on the left voted in representatives that would give them 'free' healthcare, and and now upset that the bill did not go far enough. I am well aware of these facts, but when you add the two groups together you get a percentage that is a majority of the population.

So, in the case of the insurance reform bill, which is a mandate by the way, not a law, I am not sure how the fine for not having insurance is going to pass, most likely by being called a tax, only one side was hurt, the left of the spectrum. Those on the right got what they voted for, opposition to a bill, that if it was called a law, would be unconstitutional.

Well then we'll just see how it all plays in the midterms won't we?

Not to mention how people come to react to the bill as it starts to truly take effect a few years down the line....

Or do you think it's likely the GOP will gain enough seats in the senate to repeal the bill before it can go into effect?

334 Boogberg  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:14:49am

I can see why government would want women to go through with their pregnancies. Future taxpayers, after all.

335 SpaceJesus  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:16:28am

re: #334 Boogberg

I can see why government would want women to go through with their pregnancies. Future taxpayers, after all.


less than half of them anyway

336 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:16:35am

re: #333 jamesfirecat

Well then we'll just see how it all plays in the midterms won't we?

Not to mention how people come to react to the bill as it starts to truly take effect a few years down the line...

Or do you think it's likely the GOP will gain enough seats in the senate to repeal the bill before it can go into effect?

I think there are parts of the bill that can't be repealed, IIRC.

337 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:18:08am

re: #315 compound idaho

Let me put it differently, and you can say if the cynicism is misplaced:

Would Catholics hospitals be in the hospital business if they are forced to comply with non Catholic standards?

I understand that they have threatened to close hospitals at times, under such threats. Would doing so cause harm?

338 Cannadian Club Akbar  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:18:37am

bbiab

339 Boogberg  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:19:20am

re: #335 spacejesus

Yeah but it's the half that matters.

340 compound idaho  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:19:59am

re: #336 Cannadian Club Akbar

I'm curious. How can something not be repealed?

341 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:20:52am

re: #340 compound idaho

I'm curious. How can something not be repealed?

I was about to say the same thing, for better or worse there's nothing our government does that can't be undone with enough votes in the right place.

342 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:22:28am

re: #321 HoosierHoops

All but one of my kids have been Born at the Queen of the Valley in Napa..I think that is an unfair characterization.. I have had real issues about Catholic hospitals and have posted them here...But I feel you have over generalized

I do not say it as a personal condemnation of all Catholics, in or out of the hospital, but as in my previous post, when they are prepared to get out of the hospital business, as they have said, if forced to observe non catholic rights, then clearly they think their dogma is greater than the good they do.

Take that as you will.

343 compound idaho  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:22:38am

re: #337 Naso Tang

Let me put it differently, and you can say if the cynicism is misplaced:

Would Catholics hospitals be in the hospital business if they are forced to comply with non Catholic standards?

I understand that they have threatened to close hospitals at times, under such threats. Would doing so cause harm?

Just don't think controlling others is their motivation for operating hospitals.

344 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:23:28am

The Middle East Newsline reports that the Egyptian Army has come under the steady domination of Islamists. Egyptian sources said Islamists have risen to mid- and high-level ranks in the army and navy. They said many of these officers pressure their soldiers to demonstrate a devotion and observance to the Muslim religion regardless of their faith.

"There is an acceptance in most of the military that fundamentalist Islam is legitimate and becoming the dominating trend," a source familiar with the Egyptian military said.

The sources said the Islamist trend in the military began in the Egyptian Navy during the 1990s. They said the Islamic influence spread to the army and included pressure on non-Muslims to convert.

The Islamist officers were said to have reached senior levels of the army. They sources said the officers have pressed for greater access to mosques, additional time for prayer and ritual as well as decreasing tolerance for secular and non-Muslim soldiers.

SNIP

345 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:25:32am

re: #324 MandyManners

"Don't be evil" has gone all 1984 on us. Or so it seems after Google revealed Friday that its Street View cars, in addition to snapping photos of the world's roadways, have also been collecting sensitive personal information from unencrypted wireless networks.

Actually it amazes me that a tech magazine like PC World has decided to go all "Daily Globe" or "National Inquirer" in order to pimp a story.

First off, if you read the story closely, and if you are tech savvy, this is not the big bad big brother anything going on. Yes, Google probably made a mistake, but it was evidently unintentional, and everything else they were doing was totally legal.

1) They were collecting information about locations and MAC's or unsecured WIFI routers. There is nothing illegal about that, an unsecured router is accessible by the public without breaking any laws, and it is the responsibility of the owner of the router to secure it or leave it public. That simple information comes with every router in every box.

2) You can buy a packet/keychain device yourself, for 20 dollars that will "sniff" for unsecured open public WIFI routers... from Amazon.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

3) There are TONS of directories showing the location of WIFI public hotspots on line.

The only thing wrong, there was some rogue code in the WIFI finding code that was collecting more than router info and was actually sniffing the data streams, which when Google found out the code existed in their system, the too appropriate action.

Bullshit about Big Brother.

346 Boogberg  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:26:08am

re: #335 spacejesus

And just to clarify -

Even though I don't pay federal income tax, My boss certainly does. He gets most of his wealth from the fruits of my labor.

347 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:27:40am

Senior Palestinian Authority negotiator Saeb Erekat has criticized Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu for mentioning the Jewish people's historic tie to Jerusalem as described in the Bible. He accused the prime minister of “[using] religion to incite hatred and fear.”

Netanyahu had made reference to numerous Biblical references to Jerusalem while addressing the Knesset in a session honoring Jerusalem Day – the anniversary of the day on which Israel's capital was reunited after 19 years during which Jordan held control of the eastern half of the city.

The Bible refers to Jerusalem and Zion 850 times, Netanyahu said.

At first he did not say how many times Jerusalem is mentioned in the holy writings of other faiths, but after he was challenged by an Israeli Arab MK, he said Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Koran at all, although a 12th century interpretation of the Koran does say one passage referred to the city. However, the prime minister clarified, “It is not my intention to detract from the bond other peoples have with Jerusalem... I am challenging the attempts to distract from, distort or erase our unique bond with Jerusalem.”

SNIP

I am STILL scratching my head over Erekat's ludicrous accusation.

348 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:28:18am

re: #345 Walter L. Newton

When have I claimed to be a techie?

349 Stonemason  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:30:26am

re: #333 jamesfirecat

Well then we'll just see how it all plays in the midterms won't we?

Not to mention how people come to react to the bill as it starts to truly take effect a few years down the line...

Or do you think it's likely the GOP will gain enough seats in the senate to repeal the bill before it can go into effect?

Well here's the conundrum, I, in no way, want some of those tea party candidates to win anything, some of them are outright idiots. If it means a few years of dealing with the bill till the pendulum swings again, I might have to deal with it. I just hope too much damage is not done because there is a tipping point where we will be stuck with the bill, which will lead to single payer, which is never a good thing, but, we're stuck with that now too, in the form of Medicare and SSI, and forced acceptance of everyone at ER's.

Now, to bring this back on topic, the Government would not fire the Administrator for performing the abortion. Good thing? In this case, yes. But, when it comes to Grandma, after her 5th heart attack, the government might not want to do another by-pass, which, if we had single payer, I would be behind 100%. Single payer means rationed care and healthy lifestyles, which, to keep my taxes at a reasonable level, since taking my money to pay for healthcare is unconstitutional, is fine with me.

If repeal can happen without the insanity of the far right, or the far left, then so be it.

350 simonml  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:31:29am

re: #330 marjoriemoon

There's definitely details we don't know. From the article:


Also [Link: chestjournal.chestpubs.org...]

While pulmonary hypertension can be treated "PPH is likely to worsen during labor and delivery, resulting in a high maternal mortality rate." Terminating a pregnancy because of PPH would be a valid medical procedure.

All that info makes me feel like this issue wasn't an emergency. Perhaps the nun was pushing back against policy she didn't believe in. So in that case it might not have necessarily been about saving the mother's life. Just speculation of course

351 Obdicut  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:33:05am

re: #350 simonml

Do you somehow not comprehend the words "high maternal mortality rate"?

352 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:35:53am

re: #348 MandyManners

When have I claimed to be a techie?

Sorry Mandy, that was a universal "you" when I used it in my comment. I was just trying to point out the facts versus the hype, and it's getting to be pain in the ass that EVERY fucking article now a days, from what ever sources, has to be written like it's the end of the world, all done simply to attract readers and viewers.

It's getting to the point that EVERYTHING is an outrage, and the more salacious a topic can be presented, the more "truthful" it apparently becomes, and there is a lot of fucking people falling for this, polarizing themselves to some manufactured cause and in the long run... making fools out of themselves.

353 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:36:33am

THREE suicide bombers blew themselves up at a sports field in northern Iraq yesterday, killing at least 10 people and wounding another 120 during a football match. The attack took place during a game in the town of Tal Afar, which lies between the Syrian border and the volatile city of Mosul.

The first bomber waited until the end of the match before detonating his car bomb amid a crowd of supporters and players near the field's entrance. In the ensuing panic, two other attackers activated their suicide belts inside the crowd.

SNIP

354 zora  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:37:06am

re: #350 simonml

She was part of a group of people, including the patient and doctors, who decided upon the course of action.

it wasn't just the nuns decision.

355 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:37:27am

re: #352 Walter L. Newton

Have you written letters to editors lambasting this trend?

356 Renaissance_Man  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:37:54am

re: #350 simonml

All that info makes me feel like this issue wasn't an emergency. Perhaps the nun was pushing back against policy she didn't believe in. So in that case it might not have necessarily been about saving the mother's life. Just speculation of course

Sounds like baseless speculation to me. The article says it was an emergency. Any situation I can think of where the ethics committee of a hospital would be called would be a relatively emergent one. The medical facts of the case strongly suggest an emergency. Yet, curiously, you feel it's not actually an emergency, and just a show of power by a hospital administrator who works at a Catholic hospital but who secretly longs to abort babies, and wanted to make a political point.

If it wasn't an emergency, and the mother and the administrator desperately just wanted to abort the baby because they wanted to abort babies, then surely they would have moved her offsite to a clinic where it could have been done with a minimum of fuss and not cost anyone their job or create a problem in the hospital. Are you really suggesting that they wanted so desperately to abort a baby that they tried to do it in the most complicated and controversial way possible just to prove a point?

357 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:37:57am

re: #355 MandyManners

Have you written letters to editors lambasting this trend?

I just did.

358 simonml  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:39:05am

re: #351 Obdicut

Do you somehow not comprehend the words "high maternal mortality rate"?

I understand "high maternal mortality rate."

From the article

Most of the deaths were in the third trimester, with the highest risk in the first 10 days postpartum

This lady was 11 weeks pregnant. The hospital could have legally transported her to another facility where abortions are regularly performed. You could even argue it was dangerous for this administrator to allow an abortion in a hospital where personnel don't typically perform them.

359 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:39:41am

re: #74 Charles

Pamela "Shrieking Harpy" Geller is whining and ranting about the US Trademark Office tonight, calling them "dhimmis" because they wouldn't approve a trademark for her and Robert Spencer's bigoted anti-Muslim group, SIOA (Stop the Islamization of America).

Right, America's about to become an Islamic country any freaking second. It must be stopped.

The Trademark Office won't issue trademarks for names that are deliberately insulting to ethnic or religious groups, but Geller and Spencer are so deranged that they don't even think they are being insulting.

That's what happens when you dedicate your life to obsessed hatred. People treat you like an obsessed hater, and you don't get trademarks for it.

Shouldn't that be 'Islamicization'?

360 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:40:57am

re: #77 eightyfiv

Pardon my ethnocentrism, but this is *bullshit*.
The Talmud worked through these issues nearly two millennia ago. One who pursues the life of another must be stopped, by death if necessary. A fetus endangering the life of the mother has no independent existence except as a pursuer -- it will die regardless. Hence, it must be killed. A moral framework for determining what should be intuitively obvious.

Here is a lovely analysis of a recent, genuinely difficult case done by the late Rav Moshe Feinstein, on conjoined twins. Why the Catholic establishment is still contorting itself over cases as simple as the one here is beyond me.

Totally different philosophy.

That said, there's an indication that in some medieval and Renaissance communities, Christian women preferred to go to Jewish midwives because they knew that the Jewish woman would prioritize the mother's life in a bad delivery.

361 Obdicut  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:42:11am

re: #358 simonml

This lady was 11 weeks pregnant. The hospital could have legally transported her to another facility where abortions are regularly performed. You could even argue it was dangerous for this administrator to allow an abortion in a hospital where personnel don't typically perform them.

Which all indicates that it actually was an emergency. What the hell is your point? Why do you want to keep speculating that it wasn't really about the health of the mother? It's not a reasonable speculation.

362 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:42:59am

re: #349 Stonemason

Well here's the conundrum, I, in no way, want some of those tea party candidates to win anything, some of them are outright idiots. If it means a few years of dealing with the bill till the pendulum swings again, I might have to deal with it. I just hope too much damage is not done because there is a tipping point where we will be stuck with the bill, which will lead to single payer, which is never a good thing, but, we're stuck with that now too, in the form of Medicare and SSI, and forced acceptance of everyone at ER's.

Now, to bring this back on topic, the Government would not fire the Administrator for performing the abortion. Good thing? In this case, yes. But, when it comes to Grandma, after her 5th heart attack, the government might not want to do another by-pass, which, if we had single payer, I would be behind 100%. Single payer means rationed care and healthy lifestyles, which, to keep my taxes at a reasonable level, since taking my money to pay for healthcare is unconstitutional, is fine with me.

If repeal can happen without the insanity of the far right, or the far left, then so be it.

Could you present me with a reasonable picture of how life might work that doesn't involve forced acceptance of everyone at ER's?

Because at the moment as I see things if we didn't have that, it would mean doctors would have to check your credit rating, your house, your car, etc before they could be sure you'd be able to pay for however much it costs to patch up that bullet wound in your chest.

I'm not trying to paint you into a corner I'm trying to get informed.

Is there a sane way to not have ERs treat people first and ask about payment later?

363 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:43:24am

re: #117 swamprat

Here's a Lutheran who tried to kill Hitler, and believed in social justice.Yeah, I know, we were talking about Catholics. Still, I found him interesting.

Read the whole thing.

Hattip: pre- Boomer Marine

Bonhoeffer should be better known.

364 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:47:19am

Organizing for America, the former grass-roots campaign arm for President Obama’s 2008 campaign, is trying to rally supporters to phone bank and get out the vote in Pennsylvania for Sen. Arlen Specter, D-Penn., the former Republican locked in a tight primary race with a far more progressive Democrat, Rep. Joe Sestak, D-Penn.

Chris Bolling, the national volunteer coordinator for OFA, writes in an email that the “stakes of this election are high: ensuring that allies of the President are elected in the House and Senate to fight for change. So starting this weekend, through Tuesday's election, there will be phone banks for OFA volunteers in D.C. We'll call into Pennsylvania and encourage voters to support leaders who will fight for President Obama's vision for change.”

Specter, of course, supported the presidential campaign of Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., and only became a Democrat when it became clear he would suffer an ignominious defeat in the GOP primary to former Rep. Pat Toomey, R-Penn. But the White House, needing Specter’s support for various parts of the president’s agenda, pledged to help him in his re-election.

But all that politics making strange bedfellows means that the president’s campaign arm is asking grass-roots progressives to vote for someone who until last year was a Republican to defeat Sestak, who is indubitably a more legitimate progressive.

SNIP

365 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:47:34am

re: #357 Walter L. Newton

I just did.

GOOD!!!

366 Boogberg  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:48:52am

Here's an episode of Chicago Hope that touches on some issues.

[Link: www.hulu.com...]

It will cost you 46 minutes of your life. :D

367 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:48:55am

re: #154 palomino

Don't sweat it. Dreams of criminality, guilt and imprisonment are quite common. Just shows that you have a conscience.

I once dreamed of shooting an ex-boss. There was no guilt involved, the whole thing was very clinical, and I woke up thinking "WTF? I didn't know I was that mad at him."

368 Stonemason  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:54:41am

re: #362 jamesfirecat

Could you present me with a reasonable picture of how life might work that doesn't involve forced acceptance of everyone at ER's?

Because at the moment as I see things if we didn't have that, it would mean doctors would have to check your credit rating, your house, your car, etc before they could be sure you'd be able to pay for however much it costs to patch up that bullet wound in your chest.

I'm not trying to paint you into a corner I'm trying to get informed.

Is there a sane way to not have ERs treat people first and ask about payment later?

Hmmm, nope, no sane way, I worded that wrong. Here is what I meant with that one five word section of my post.

The Government promised ER's that the bills of the truly indigent would be paid, by mandate of course, and then the funding dried up. Hospitals are still forced to take non-payers, and the jack up the prices to paying customers accordingly, we've all seen the bill for the Tylenol at $8 per pill. This higher rate is (somewhat) paid for by the insurance companies, which is then passed along to the consumer, the ones who are now paying taxes and insurance bills to cover the indigent at hospitals. That is the problem with intervention. Prior to that, did we have millions, or even hundreds of thousands, dying on the streets? No, we didn't. They still were treated, and payment was either made or not made.

Okay, that is oversimplified, sure, but the gist is correct. I don't want other humans to die because they didn't get into an ER, but I do want some form of personal responsibility enforced, too many take advantage of the system, as system that is easily taken advantage of, because it was designed with altruism in mind, no facts. When something is perceived as 'free', people will use more of it.
Once again, there is no easy way to turn people away at the ER doors, and they shouldn't be, but there is a better way to handle the aftermath, perhaps those that are determined to be able bodied and healthy by the same doctors that treated them could work to pay off the bills? Or, perhaps, they could take second and third jobs to pay off the birth of a child...it has been done.

370 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:57:03am

re: #297 simonml

Definitely. Without more information we can't say whether it was right or wrong. I was just saying that if this mom knew she had this problem she probably should not have gotten pregnant.

Thanks for blaming the sick pregnant woman without knowing the facts of the case. Move along now.

371 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:58:01am

re: #343 compound idaho

Just don't think controlling others is their motivation for operating hospitals.

Controlling people is a fundamental of most religious dogma, whether stated as such or not.

372 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:58:21am

re: #312 Naso Tang

Excuse the cynicism, but one has to wonder if "catholic" hospitals are not in this business first because of the opportunity it allows for making decisions about other people's lives.

The Church was providing hospitals and health care back when damn little was available to the poor in America's cities. I may be completely furious about this decision, but the role of Catholic churches in this country is an old and honorable one.

373 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:58:37am

re: #369 Stonemason

Living in PA is fun right now, Mr. Specter is finally going to be fired!

Not if the Progs at OfA have anything to do with it!

374 darthstar  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:58:45am

re: #370 SanFranciscoZionist

Thanks for blaming the sick pregnant woman without knowing the facts of the case. Move along now.

Gotta love those anti-choice arguments. Blame the patient. Priceless.

375 Lidane  Sun, May 16, 2010 9:59:21am

re: #350 simonml

Just speculation of course

"I'm just asking questions!"

376 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:00:54am

re: #350 simonml

All that info makes me feel like this issue wasn't an emergency. Perhaps the nun was pushing back against policy she didn't believe in. So in that case it might not have necessarily been about saving the mother's life. Just speculation of course

Do you have a medical degree, and were you the physician of record in this case? No? Then drop dead.

377 Stonemason  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:01:27am

re: #373 MandyManners

Not if the Progs at OfA have anything to do with it!

Not gonna help. Most Democrats and all republicans that have switched for this vote, want him gone. Only the hard left want him to stay, and that is only for the numbers, we do not have enough clothes-pins for the noses when they vote for him!!!

And, of course, Toomey will clean the clock of any opponent this year, heck, we might even get a Republican Governor again.

378 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:04:34am

re: #377 Stonemason

Not gonna help. Most Democrats and all republicans that have switched for this vote, want him gone. Only the hard left want him to stay, and that is only for the numbers, we do not have enough clothes-pins for the noses when they vote for him!!!

And, of course, Toomey will clean the clock of any opponent this year, heck, we might even get a Republican Governor again.

I wonder if OfA's campaign will piss off the Progs who support Sestak to the point that they just won't vote.

379 darthstar  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:04:41am

re: #350 simonml

All that info makes me feel like this issue wasn't an emergency. Perhaps the nun was pushing back against policy she didn't believe in. So in that case it might not have necessarily been about saving the mother's life. Just speculation of course

You know what? Fuck you. Fuck you for having no clue what you're talking about. Fuck you for blaming the patient for getting sick. Fuck you for doubting the need to save the mother's life. This wasn't an elective abortion - it was a woman who was trying to have a child and had complications during pregnancy. Of course, you'd rather harvest the fetus than save the mother. Self-righteous fucks like you love thinking they've saved an innocent life. So I don't care what you 'feel' about this issue. Your speculation is the kind of shit that Fox reports as fact because, well...some people say...so fuck you for feeding into that bullshit.

Oh, and did I say fuck you?

380 Walter L. Newton  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:04:43am

re: #377 Stonemason

Not gonna help. Most Democrats and all republicans that have switched for this vote, want him gone. Only the hard left want him to stay, and that is only for the numbers, we do not have enough clothes-pins for the noses when they vote for him!!!

And, of course, Toomey will clean the clock of any opponent this year, heck, we might even get a Republican Governor again.

PA. is gonna see the new spunky NJ governor and they are going to want some of that sort of politician... as a person who lived for many years in NJ, and had a lot of business to do with PA I know these folks... all Toomey has to do is not take any shit from anyone and mean it.

381 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:06:43am

re: #379 darthstar

You know what? Fuck you. Fuck you for having no clue what you're talking about. Fuck you for blaming the patient for getting sick. Fuck you for doubting the need to save the mother's life. This wasn't an elective abortion - it was a woman who was trying to have a child and had complications during pregnancy. Of course, you'd rather harvest the fetus than save the mother. Self-righteous fucks like you love thinking they've saved an innocent life. So I don't care what you 'feel' about this issue. Your speculation is the kind of shit that Fox reports as fact because, well...some people say...so fuck you for feeding into that bullshit.

Oh, and did I say fuck you?

We got this back when Tiller was shot. People were reading about cases where women were travelling halfway across the country to get to a doctor who would do the late-term abortion that would save their life, and trolls were popping up right left and center to suggest that 'maybe' their medical condition wasn't really as bad as Tiller said, and 'maybe' they'd just been too lazy to get a first-trimester abortion...

FOAD.

382 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:06:44am

re: #372 SanFranciscoZionist

The Church was providing hospitals and health care back when damn little was available to the poor in America's cities. I may be completely furious about this decision, but the role of Catholic churches in this country is an old and honorable one.

Yes it is, largely since the type of situation this thread is about is a minor total of health care, even including all abortion situations, or rape pregnancy prevention.

The problem is that by allowing a religious institution to establish what is often the main or only source of health care in an area, we allow them to dictate the law of the land in such situations.

That is everyone else's fault, but if the Catholic institutions were honest about their ultimate motives they would acknowledge that there should be alternative non Catholic services established where needed and even work to help make that happen; which of course would be a contradiction of dogma.

My point, again, is that dogma trumps people.

383 usufruct  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:10:54am

Not only is there a serious mortality rate for pregnant women with PPH, even if they do survive the pregnancy they require heart-lung transplants.

384 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:11:06am

re: #368 Stonemason

Hmmm, nope, no sane way, I worded that wrong. Here is what I meant with that one five word section of my post.

The Government promised ER's that the bills of the truly indigent would be paid, by mandate of course, and then the funding dried up. Hospitals are still forced to take non-payers, and the jack up the prices to paying customers accordingly, we've all seen the bill for the Tylenol at $8 per pill. This higher rate is (somewhat) paid for by the insurance companies, which is then passed along to the consumer, the ones who are now paying taxes and insurance bills to cover the indigent at hospitals. That is the problem with intervention. Prior to that, did we have millions, or even hundreds of thousands, dying on the streets? No, we didn't. They still were treated, and payment was either made or not made.

Okay, that is oversimplified, sure, but the gist is correct. I don't want other humans to die because they didn't get into an ER, but I do want some form of personal responsibility enforced, too many take advantage of the system, as system that is easily taken advantage of, because it was designed with altruism in mind, no facts. When something is perceived as 'free', people will use more of it.
Once again, there is no easy way to turn people away at the ER doors, and they shouldn't be, but there is a better way to handle the aftermath, perhaps those that are determined to be able bodied and healthy by the same doctors that treated them could work to pay off the bills? Or, perhaps, they could take second and third jobs to pay off the birth of a child...it has been done.

I understood the crux of your point, I"m just saying that while it might be a thing you can point out as a "possible problem" there is no humane and effective solution to making sure people can pay before getting treatment at the ER.

While your solution seems reasonable on the surface there are two problems with it in my eyes.

1: Working to pay off the bills. Where would they work? At the hospital? A lot of the work that goes on in hospitals requires a lot of training before you can take care of it, and the amount that would be spent training the person would only add to the problem not to mention become more or less wasted money once they've paid off their debt.

2: The entire thing ends up seeming like a sort of modern day debtor's prison/government enforced indentured servitude if we're going to restrict people's ability to move/force them to take a particular job due to their lack of finances.

As a possible third point those people who come into the ER often aren't in good shape to work after their treatment. Suppose someone got shot in the chest, or in the leg, and they need help walking. As far as I know (I stand very open to being corrected) ER will patch you up and make sure you aren't going to die, but they aren't going to give you the kind of therapy you'd need to get fully mobile again.

In short to my eyes the ER rooms can't be run like restaurants where if you try to skimp on your bill they take you to the kitchen and make you wash dishes....

385 darthstar  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:12:32am

re: #382 Naso Tang

How about no federal funds for hospitals that refuse to provide all legal medical procedures - including abortions? The Hospital can say that they don't believe in the procedure, but provide it because they're legally obligated to do so. Then those assholes can picket themselves.

386 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:12:58am

re: #317 simonml

That statement could be made about any physician since doctors are often left to make difficult decisions for patients (ie amputating an arm, hysterectomy, etc.) I think Catholics are "in this business" b/c the Catholic Church has always been "in the business" of medical care. Remember that Jesus guy healing the sick?

That is a silly analogy in this context. Are you suggesting Jesus invented the concept of helping or healing others?

387 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:13:26am

re: #385 darthstar

How about no federal funds for hospitals that refuse to provide all legal medical procedures - including abortions? The Hospital can say that they don't believe in the procedure, but provide it because they're legally obligated to do so. Then those assholes can picket themselves.

Wouldn't that violate the First Amendment?

388 MandyManners  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:14:03am

Gotta' go burn the bacon.

389 Boogberg  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:15:16am

re: #388 MandyManners

Mmmmm. Bacon.

390 Lidane  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:17:10am

re: #383 usufruct

Not only is there a serious mortality rate for pregnant women with PPH, even if they do survive the pregnancy they require heart-lung transplants.

But of course, that abortion clearly wasn't an emergency. It was just a nun, a hospital's ethics committee and a pregnant woman at serious medical risk all trying to make a political point.

///

391 darthstar  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:17:24am

re: #387 MandyManners

Wouldn't that violate the First Amendment?

No. The medical procedure is not actually a religious issue. It's a medical one. I'm not saying that they're required to get abortions, just provide the legal medical procedure for patients who may need or want one.

392 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:18:11am

re: #387 MandyManners

Wouldn't that violate the First Amendment?

The first amendment is about speech, not about what one denies others, is it not?

393 Stonemason  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:23:10am

re: #384 jamesfirecat

1: Working to pay off the bills. Where would they work? At the hospital? A lot of the work that goes on in hospitals requires a lot of training before you can take care of it, and the amount that would be spent training the person would only add to the problem not to mention become more or less wasted money once they've paid off their debt.


And there are non-skilled jobs that anyone can do, sweeping floors, taking out the trash, painting the walls.

2: The entire thing ends up seeming like a sort of modern day debtor's prison/government enforced indentured servitude if we're going to restrict people's ability to move/force them to take a particular job due to their lack of finances.


To the above, my liberarian/conservative side wants to say 'tough titties', and that part of me that struggled, worked three jobs, was dirt poor wants to say 'tough titties', but then the religiuos part of me understands that debtors prisons were not really a good idea, but then again, so is using a service and not paying for it. I was giving people a way to take responsibility, please don't turn it into a punishment. Of course, too many see taking responsibility as a punishment.

As a possible third point those people who come into the ER often aren't in good shape to work after their treatment. Suppose someone got shot in the chest, or in the leg, and they need help walking. As far as I know (I stand very open to being corrected) ER will patch you up and make sure you aren't going to die, but they aren't going to give you the kind of therapy you'd need to get fully mobile again.

This is true, for a very small percentage of the indigent. Most come in for the sniffles, a belly ache, or drugs. Of course I do not have the time to properly research that statement, and I know that percentage wise, more indigent are shot than paying customers, but still, the vast majority are in and out in a few hours, ambulatory.

In short to my eyes the ER rooms can't be run like restaurants where if you try to skimp on your bill they take you to the kitchen and make you wash dishes...

Yes, they can. The government already runs this way, the IRS will make you wash the dishes if you fail to pay taxes, hospitals can make you wash the dishes if you fail to pay the bills. Most hospitals will work with a patient, and that patient might take years to pay, but once the bill is paid off, the relief in palpable. It can be done.

394 jamesfirecat  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:28:01am

re: #393 Stonemason

Yes, they can. The government already runs this way, the IRS will make you wash the dishes if you fail to pay taxes, hospitals can make you wash the dishes if you fail to pay the bills. Most hospitals will work with a patient, and that patient might take years to pay, but once the bill is paid off, the relief in palpable. It can be done.

Like I mentioned before, right now there's more or less just us, and this is clearly a complicated issue, want to table it until we can bring the full mental might of LGF to focus on it?

395 Boogberg  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:28:31am

re: #393 Stonemason

Painting is not "unskilled", sir. Anymore than stone masonry is. I'm surprised you said that.

396 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:29:43am

re: #385 darthstar

How about no federal funds for hospitals that refuse to provide all legal medical procedures - including abortions? The Hospital can say that they don't believe in the procedure, but provide it because they're legally obligated to do so. Then those assholes can picket themselves.

Is that not what the law already says, in principle, about federal funds supporting religious discrimination of any kind?

The problem is a catch 22, when we have allowed religious institutions to become the primary health care provider in many areas.

The only practical solution I can think of is to force catholic hospitals, that take federal funds, to have a non catholic pool of doctors and nurses with full access to the facilities and answerable to a non catholic board. They need not all be full time staff even.

Then anyone wanting help with something catholics are not willing to provide, they can request non catholic staff.

397 Stonemason  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:30:07am

re: #395 Boogberg

Painting is not "unskilled", sir. Anymore than stone masonry is. I'm surprised you said that.

LOL...sorry about that. Actually, a good cleaning crew is skilled as well. Perhaps I should have used 'apprentices' in my examples. There are levels of skills in all jobs, we all started somewhere!

398 Boogberg  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:36:24am

re: #397 Stonemason

Ok I'm better now. :)

399 iceweasel  Sun, May 16, 2010 10:38:56am

re: #385 darthstar

How about no federal funds for hospitals that refuse to provide all legal medical procedures - including abortions? The Hospital can say that they don't believe in the procedure, but provide it because they're legally obligated to do so. Then those assholes can picket themselves.

One problem is that there absolutely would be some hospitals somewhere that would take that trade-- even if it means turning away everyone on Medicare and Medicaid as well. Just look at the anti-choice legislation passed in just the past week-- not just Missouri, but in OK, KS and TN. Hell, look at the Stupak amendment bullshit over HCR.

Never underestimate the number of people interested in protecting the made-up rights of Fetal-Americans over those of actual female persons.

400 justaminute  Sun, May 16, 2010 11:00:15am

Washing dishes in a restaurant if you can not pay your bill only happens in the movie, maybe. As a restaurant owner, our insurance does not allow customers in the kitchen area. They would have to be hired and all the paperwork filled out on them and taxes paid. I asked my insurance co. if I could have them pick up trash outside and they replied we won't cover if they become injured period.

401 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 16, 2010 11:05:39am

re: #386 Naso Tang

That is a silly analogy in this context. Are you suggesting Jesus invented the concept of helping or healing others?

No, of course not.
But Catholic hospitals have provided medical care before abortion was legal. To say, as you did earlier, that Catholics got into the business of health care for the purpose of controlling people's lives is silliness (and stupidity).

A Catholic-owned hospital will not provide abortions, nor the facilities to others to provide abortions. They would, however, sell the hospital. How about a group of atheists get together and buy these non-profit endeavors from the Catholics, and provide the services being provided by Catholic medical facilities?

402 Boogberg  Sun, May 16, 2010 11:10:18am

re: #400 justaminute

Man the restaurant business is competitive as hell. How are you holding up lately?

403 ClaudeMonet  Sun, May 16, 2010 11:11:19am

re: #182 laZardo

Update: Grandma has already passed, and my first cousin whose child I am godfather to committed suicide yesterday.

My condolences on both of your losses. Remember them both in happier times, and do what you can for and with your godchild.

Hang in there, and if you need to scream at someone, Internet friends are good for that.

404 justaminute  Sun, May 16, 2010 11:16:04am

re: #402 Boogberg

Man the restaurant business is competitive as hell. How are you holding up lately?

We are doing pretty good. I always laughingly say, we follow the Wal Mart business model, lots of food at the lowest cost. It works, especially we times are tough.

405 ClaudeMonet  Sun, May 16, 2010 11:17:40am
406 ClaudeMonet  Sun, May 16, 2010 11:28:03am

re: #256 kirkspencer

Defense learned years ago that the function of State is to put itself in a position to blame DoD when State screws up, to put Defense in untenable, unwinnable positions, and to absolve itself of blame in all cases. Therefore, Defense does its own intelligence and prepares for the situations that State doesn't anticipate, which are usually the situations that occur.

Defense recognizes that State is mostly about covering its own a**, no matter how much pain and suffering is caused by not resolving situations and letting them escalate, mostly in the name of "peace" and "diplomacy".

407 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 16, 2010 11:35:50am

re: #401 reine.de.tout

No, of course not.
But Catholic hospitals have provided medical care before abortion was legal. To say, as you did earlier, that Catholics got into the business of health care for the purpose of controlling people's lives is silliness (and stupidity).

A Catholic-owned hospital will not provide abortions, nor the facilities to others to provide abortions. They would, however, sell the hospital. How about a group of atheists get together and buy these non-profit endeavors from the Catholics, and provide the services being provided by Catholic medical facilities?

I think you haven't read all my comments on the issue.

I respect Catholic's rights to their opinions and acts when they apply to themselves. When they find themselves in the position of being the sole source of medical care for many, whether that is what they intended or not, then they no longer have the right to dictate their terms to others.

To suggest that it is only atheists who differ from Catholics on issues of reproduction is silliness (and stupidity).

Shall we start over?

408 lostlakehiker  Sun, May 16, 2010 11:40:43am

re: #381 SanFranciscoZionist

We got this back when Tiller was shot. People were reading about cases where women were travelling halfway across the country to get to a doctor who would do the late-term abortion that would save their life, and trolls were popping up right left and center to suggest that 'maybe' their medical condition wasn't really as bad as Tiller said, and 'maybe' they'd just been too lazy to get a first-trimester abortion...

FOAD.

Well, nobody should curse you for your position, and nobody should shoot abortionists. The one is inexcusably rude, and the other is just plain murder and absolutely indefensible.

When it comes to the facts of partial birth abortion and how often it is undertaken because the mother's life is endangered, we do have the testimony of some erstwhile insiders in the PBA industry that almost all the PBA's performed were done for the convenience of the mother and there was no life-threatening condition involved. Considering the large number of PBA's performed and the extreme rarity of the conditions diagnosed, at least, rarity until they became convenient diagnoses, this seems quite likely.

This case in AZ that is the topic of the post seems to be one of the few in which the mother's life really was in danger. When that is the case, an abortion is fully consistent with Catholic teaching and doctrine. The church authorities who took adverse action against the administrator are making their own rules and not heeding church teaching. If they want to be religious fanatics, they should at least stick to the playbook of their denomination.

409 lostlakehiker  Sun, May 16, 2010 11:53:18am

re: #385 darthstar

How about no federal funds for hospitals that refuse to provide all legal medical procedures - including abortions? The Hospital can say that they don't believe in the procedure, but provide it because they're legally obligated to do so. Then those assholes can picket themselves.

By "no federal funds", I take it you mean that the federal government would refuse to pay for ER treatment for gunshot wounds to medicaid patients if the hospital did not provide partial birth abortion, sex change surgery, and the like?

There are limits to the practical power of the government. They can enact this law. They won't get compliance from Catholic hospitals. The hospital cannot do as you suggest. That would be contrary to church teaching. It would be rendering unto Caesar what is God's, in Catholic eyes. What would instead happen is that the Catholic hospital would close its doors and sell off its equipment and physical plant. Some doctors would find work elsewhere. The hospital might manage to reopen under new management, but it would be difficult to staff because many of the former staffers would be Catholics who would not re-up for the job under new rules.

To all intents and purposes, your proposed law might as well read this way: No Catholic shall be granted a medical degree or nursing degree, nor shall any Catholic be permitted to work in any part of the health care industry.

Or why not just go the whole nine yards and rescind freedom of religion across the board?

410 Boogberg  Sun, May 16, 2010 11:56:56am

re: #404 justaminute

Glad to hear it. I have a soft spot for the restaurant business. Great way for young people to learn about business in general and how to deal with the public. I have fond memories (as well as a few nightmares) from my early days. :)

411 Renaissance_Man  Sun, May 16, 2010 11:57:49am

re: #408 lostlakehiker


When it comes to the facts of partial birth abortion and how often it is undertaken because the mother's life is endangered, we do have the testimony of some erstwhile insiders in the PBA industry that almost all the PBA's performed were done for the convenience of the mother and there was no life-threatening condition involved.

Source for this? Thanks.

412 ClaudeMonet  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:02:05pm

re: #360 SanFranciscoZionist

Totally different philosophy.

That said, there's an indication that in some medieval and Renaissance communities, Christian women preferred to go to Jewish midwives because they knew that the Jewish woman would prioritize the mother's life in a bad delivery.

That, and the Jewish community always had a higher standard of sanitation than its Christian counterpart (not that anyone knew about germs back then, but even Christian women, unschooled and subjugated as they were by the church and their men, could do the math). Put another way, it was perceived and possibly true that fewer Christian women were dying in childbirth when attended by Jewish midwives, so the Christian women (presumably with the knowledge and consent of the husbands) went where they had the better chance.

I was always amused/appalled when the epithet "dirty Jew" was thrown at me and my compatriots.

413 lostlakehiker  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:06:44pm

re: #411 Renaissance_Man

I can't give you the source. With luck you can Google it yourself, but it was some mainstream publication, perhaps the Wall Street Journal. Some things I just put in the "fact" book at a certain point, and don't bother to memorize the source. I figure that facts are generally available to others anyhow.

wikipedia, for what it's worth Maybe it was the New York Times?

This attitude isn't the right one for debate, but it's convenient for knowing what the real world is like.

414 lostlakehiker  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:08:48pm

re: #412 ClaudeMonet

That, and the Jewish community always had a higher standard of sanitation than its Christian counterpart (not that anyone knew about germs back then, but even Christian women, unschooled and subjugated as they were by the church and their men, could do the math). Put another way, it was perceived and possibly true that fewer Christian women were dying in childbirth when attended by Jewish midwives, so the Christian women (presumably with the knowledge and consent of the husbands) went where they had the better chance.

I was always amused/appalled when the epithet "dirty Jew" was thrown at me and my compatriots.

Reminds me of a snippet I came across in a history of the Nazi era: "heroic scrubbing". (How the wives in the Warsaw ghetto managed to keep typhus at bay, despite scant rations and very tight quarters living.)

415 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:10:45pm

Out for a while

416 lostlakehiker  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:24:32pm

re: #312 Naso Tang

Excuse the cynicism, but one has to wonder if "catholic" hospitals are not in this business first because of the opportunity it allows for making decisions about other people's lives.

Wow. You really have it in for Catholics. That's just absurd. Occam's razor says they're in that business because of the opportunity it allows for practicing what they preach. All that tommyrot about love thy neighbor, yadda yadda.

Working in a Catholic hospital is all about getting the job done right, about medical professionalism and compassion, reconciling the technical side of the work with the human side as seen through the lens of Catholic teaching.

I know this from first hand experience of having worked in one. And no, I'm not Catholic. I'm not a believer at all; I consider their doctrines, and every other doctrine, unproved. But I respect their professionalism and I know their motives because I watched them at it and worked side by side with them.

417 Renaissance_Man  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:33:14pm

re: #413 lostlakehiker

I can't give you the source. With luck you can Google it yourself, but it was some mainstream publication, perhaps the Wall Street Journal. Some things I just put in the "fact" book at a certain point, and don't bother to memorize the source. I figure that facts are generally available to others anyhow.

wikipedia, for what it's worth Maybe it was the New York Times?

This attitude isn't the right one for debate, but it's convenient for knowing what the real world is like.

Assuming that the real world is in fact like that. I've seen a lot of 'facts' that become generally accepted through repetition that don't have any basis in truth, but effectively become part of the 'real' world through widespread dissemination. That's how we get KnownFactsTM.

This original idea seems to come from a guy named Ron Fitzsimmons, a lobbyist who represented a coalition of abortion providers and who stated in a 1997 interview with the NYT that there were many more late-term abortions than the CDC and other sources said, and that they were mostly done for convenience. He seems to have this idea based entirely on his own impressions from visiting clinics, and not from any study of medical records or statistics. There also seems to be some confusion of terms involved - whether he was talking about mid-term abortions vs late-term and so on. As far as Ron Fitzsimmons goes, this seems to be a large story based on one man's opinion that was not supported by any statistics or record-searching.

However, I am currently reading some other stuff from even earlier - 1993 testimony of a couple of abortion providers. It's hard to sort through, because I can't find the original source and can only find the same couple of lines repeated by various anti-abortion sites. The general impression seems to be that it may, in fact, be as you say - though I wouldn't necessarily say that for sure without reading the original source. However, looking further into this will have to wait for another time.

418 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:44:28pm

re: #407 Naso Tang

I think you haven't read all my comments on the issue.

I respect Catholic's rights to their opinions and acts when they apply to themselves. When they find themselves in the position of being the sole source of medical care for many, whether that is what they intended or not, then they no longer have the right to dictate their terms to others.

To suggest that it is only atheists who differ from Catholics on issues of reproduction is silliness (and stupidity).

Shall we start over?

You misunderstood.

I did not suggest that it is only atheists that differ from Catholics.

My suggestion was that if atheists (or any other people) are upset that the sole source of medical care is a Catholic hospital because they want particular services offered that the Catholic facility doesn't offer, that they then open an institution that WILL offer those service.

I'm not surprised that you missed that point. Even when presented with it in black and white, you missed it completely - that if you, as an atheist, think that the services provided by Catholic hospitals are lacking, and you want those services provided to your community, then PROVIDE THEM yourselves. Or is it simply not part of the atheist experience to provide service others?

To demand that a Catholic hospital betray the teachings of the Church that supports it is in no way respecting the rights of Catholics to live according to their beliefs.

419 compound idaho  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:46:54pm

re: #418 reine.de.tout

You misunderstood.

I did not suggest that it is only atheists that differ from Catholics.

My suggestion was that if atheists (or any other people) are upset that the sole source of medical care is a Catholic hospital because they want particular services offered that the Catholic facility doesn't offer, that they then open an institution that WILL offer those service.

I'm not surprised that you missed that point. Even when presented with it in black and white, you missed it completely - that if you, as an atheist, think that the services provided by Catholic hospitals are lacking, and you want those services provided to your community, then PROVIDE THEM yourselves. Or is it simply not part of the atheist experience to provide service others?

To demand that a Catholic hospital betray the teachings of the Church that supports it is in no way respecting the rights of Catholics to live according to their beliefs.

.... and not all atheists are pro choice

420 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:48:42pm

re: #418 reine.de.tout

And honestly, I do think it will come to pass that medical insitutions will be required to provide all services, in which case you will see Catholic hospitals shutting down.

But it is in NO WAY respectful to demand that a religious organization running a care facility of any sort provide the services YOU want that are in conflict with that religious organization's belief.

421 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 16, 2010 12:51:10pm

re: #419 compound idaho

... and not all atheists are pro choice

I didn't say they were
Daughter's boyfriend is atheist, and strongly pro-life.

Naso seems to think it's perfectly OK to be oh so happy that the Catholic hospitals provide service where none exists; EXCEPT when the service doesn't live up to what HE believes should exist. I'm suggesting, then, that he put together a coalition of atheist to provide those services. I'm amazed that he missed that in my response, and that he continues to insist that THE CATHOLICS do it, in spite of it being contradictory to Catholic belief.
sheesh.

422 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 16, 2010 1:14:35pm

As to the topic of the post:

Catholic Hospital Punishes Administrator for Authorizing Abortion to Save Woman's Life

Given the Church's tepid, almost non-existent response to priestly pedophilia, it is WAY out of proportion, IMO, to punish this hospital administrator.

I'm not speaking in favor of nor condemning the decision; there is, I'm sure, behind-the-scenes stuff that has not been reported, and I don't think I'm in a position to support or condemn her actions given the information we have.

All I know is that I would not have wanted to be in her position; and God bless her for having to make these sorts of tough decisions. I would not be able to do it.

423 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 16, 2010 1:19:00pm

re: #416 lostlakehiker

I don't disagree with anything you say, except the part where they find themselves in the position of being able to impose their doctrine on others, and do so.

The fact is that circumstances are such that some people have no choice in where they can go for help, and we are all guilty of allowing that.

424 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, May 16, 2010 1:19:23pm

Reine, did you see this? A little bit of good news!
Charles put it in the LGF pages...
[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

425 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 16, 2010 1:21:51pm

re: #421 reine.de.tout

I didn't say they were
Daughter's boyfriend is atheist, and strongly pro-life.

Naso seems to think it's perfectly OK to be oh so happy that the Catholic hospitals provide service where none exists; EXCEPT when the service doesn't live up to what HE believes should exist. I'm suggesting, then, that he put together a coalition of atheist to provide those services. I'm amazed that he missed that in my response, and that he continues to insist that THE CATHOLICS do it, in spite of it being contradictory to Catholic belief.
sheesh.

You are still selectively reading what I said, and you are still suggesting that it is only atheists who believe in women's choice. I didn't miss it, and I answered it.

426 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 16, 2010 1:28:10pm

re: #425 Naso Tang

You are still selectively reading what I said, and you are still suggesting that it is only atheists who believe in women's choice. I didn't miss it, and I answered it.

No you are selectively seeing what you want to see and selectively refusing to see what I've actually said. I thought you were smarter than this.

You have absolutely no respect for a group of people when you DEMAND that they act in a way contradictory to their beliefs. None. Instead, you wish to impose YOUR beliefs on them.

If you believe the system of health care provided by CAtholic hospitals is sorely lacking, then, Naso, put together a coalition of whoever it is you identify with, and PROVIDE THOSE SERVICES YOURSELVES.

Again, I am floored that it does not occur to you to actually, you know, get out there and provide services yourself; you want to leave it to the Catholics, oh, but just so long as they act in the way you want them to act.

Quit writing on a blog and put your belief that certain services need to be provided into action.

427 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 16, 2010 1:29:07pm

re: #423 Naso Tang

I don't disagree with anything you say, except the part where they find themselves in the position of being able to impose their doctrine on others, and do so.

The fact is that circumstances are such that some people have no choice in where they can go for help, and we are all guilty of allowing that.

Better, then, in your opinion, that you impose your doctrine on the Catholics?
That is what you're saying.
Arrogant.
Provide the services yourself ,that you think are lacking.

428 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 16, 2010 1:29:40pm

re: #424 Floral Giraffe

Reine, did you see this? A little bit of good news!
Charles put it in the LGF pages...
[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

Flo - I got a news update from a local place here about that!
Good news indeed, thanks!

429 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 16, 2010 1:34:47pm

re: #427 reine.de.tout

Better, then, in your opinion, that you impose your doctrine on the Catholics?
That is what you're saying.
Arrogant.
Provide the services yourself ,that you think are lacking.

Reproductive services, and not only the right to terminate pregnancy under the constraints allowed by law, are a right that many people believe they should have. Catholics have every right to deny themselves those things.

They do not have the right to deny them to others when circumstances are such that others have little or no choice where they can go.

I am imposing nothing on Catholics. They are the ones, in some cases, imposing it on others. Why is that so hard for you to accept?

430 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 16, 2010 2:16:12pm

re: #429 Naso Tang

Reproductive services, and not only the right to terminate pregnancy under the constraints allowed by law, are a right that many people believe they should have. Catholics have every right to deny themselves those things.

They do not have the right to deny them to others when circumstances are such that others have little or no choice where they can go.

I am imposing nothing on Catholics. They are the ones, in some cases, imposing it on others. Why is that so hard for you to accept?

And why is it so hard for you to accept that a Catholic hospital will not provide services that are contradictory to the beliefs of Catholics? If ou believe this services are a right, then again, put together a coalition of like-minded people and provide the services yourselves!

Why won't you even entertain the idea that that is a way to solve this problem of lack of services, rather than demanding that Catholic hospitals act in a way that is contrary to Catholic faith because you think they should?

Why do you want to leave certain portions of health care up to Catholic hospitals if you think it's so lacking? Do. It. Yourself. I'm not trying to say you should NOT provide these services, I'm saying if you want it done - do it yourself, rather than demanding Catholics act in a way contrary to their faith - which is what you are demanding.

Why is it so hard for YOU to accept that perhaps it's time for YOU and those who share your values to step up to the plate and provide what you think are necessary services, rather than leaning on the Catholic healthcare facilities?

431 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 16, 2010 2:23:32pm

re: #429 Naso Tang

Reproductive services, and not only the right to terminate pregnancy under the constraints allowed by law, are a right that many people believe they should have. Catholics have every right to deny themselves those things.

They do not have the right to deny them to others when circumstances are such that others have little or no choice where they can go.

I am imposing nothing on Catholics. They are the ones, in some cases, imposing it on others. Why is that so hard for you to accept?

Catholics all over the country saw a need, and took active steps to build what was necessary to serve those needs.

You sit in the comfort of your own home and your own self-belief in your moral superiority, and look down your nose at the fact that Catholic hospitals don't provide the services YOU think they should, INSTEAD of getting off your butt and building whatever is necessary to serve the needs not being met.

I have no respect for that attitude, whatsoever. None.

432 iceweasel  Sun, May 16, 2010 2:44:59pm

re: #413 lostlakehiker

I can't give you the source. With luck you can Google it yourself, but it was some mainstream publication, perhaps the Wall Street Journal. Some things I just put in the "fact" book at a certain point, and don't bother to memorize the source. I figure that facts are generally available to others anyhow.

wikipedia, for what it's worth Maybe it was the New York Times?

This attitude isn't the right one for debate, but it's convenient for knowing what the real world is like.

I call bullshit.

433 kirkspencer  Sun, May 16, 2010 2:52:26pm

re: #406 ClaudeMonet

Defense learned years ago that the function of State is to put itself in a position to blame DoD when State screws up, to put Defense in untenable, unwinnable positions, and to absolve itself of blame in all cases. Therefore, Defense does its own intelligence and prepares for the situations that State doesn't anticipate, which are usually the situations that occur.

Defense recognizes that State is mostly about covering its own a**, no matter how much pain and suffering is caused by not resolving situations and letting them escalate, mostly in the name of "peace" and "diplomacy".

Would you like to give some examples of putting itself in a position to blame DoD, and of putting Defense in untenable, unwinnable positions?

I'll ante by pointing out Bremer's CPA and indeed most of Iraq for the first three years to include the six months preceding, were all DoD.

434 iceweasel  Sun, May 16, 2010 2:58:56pm

re: #417 Renaissance_Man

Assuming that the real world is in fact like that. I've seen a lot of 'facts' that become generally accepted through repetition that don't have any basis in truth, but effectively become part of the 'real' world through widespread dissemination. That's how we get KnownFactsTM.

This original idea seems to come from a guy named Ron Fitzsimmons, a lobbyist who represented a coalition of abortion providers and who stated in a 1997 interview with the NYT that there were many more late-term abortions than the CDC and other sources said, and that they were mostly done for convenience. He seems to have this idea based entirely on his own impressions from visiting clinics, and not from any study of medical records or statistics. There also seems to be some confusion of terms involved - whether he was talking about mid-term abortions vs late-term and so on. As far as Ron Fitzsimmons goes, this seems to be a large story based on one man's opinion that was not supported by any statistics or record-searching.

However, I am currently reading some other stuff from even earlier - 1993 testimony of a couple of abortion providers. It's hard to sort through, because I can't find the original source and can only find the same couple of lines repeated by various anti-abortion sites. The general impression seems to be that it may, in fact, be as you say - though I wouldn't necessarily say that for sure without reading the original source. However, looking further into this will have to wait for another time.

There's a great deal of misinformation out there about so-called Partial Birth Abortion; one common trick is to conflate 'later abortion' (which includes part of the second trimester) with 'late-term abortion'.

Wikipedia had at one point at least one editor doing a very clever job of posting misinformation about abortion, as I discovered myself here.

435 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 16, 2010 3:10:08pm

re: #430 reine.de.tout


Why won't you even entertain the idea that that is a way to solve this problem of lack of services, rather than demanding that Catholic hospitals act in a way that is contrary to Catholic faith because you think they should?

I have made a suggestion in that regard. Catholic hospitals are not run on charity alone. They receive state and federal funds, and operate as businesses, do they not? I suspect that not only Catholics are employed there, including medical staff. When they have become the primary health providers in an area, because it made no sense to duplicate facilities on idealogical grounds alone, then the decent thing to do would be for them to also respect other people's wishes and allow those staff who are willing to do so, to provide services that the Catholic staff don't want to.

Why do you want to leave certain portions of health care up to Catholic hospitals if you think it's so lacking? Do. It. Yourself. I'm not trying to say you should NOT provide these services, I'm saying if you want it done - do it yourself, rather than demanding Catholics act in a way contrary to their faith - which is what you are demanding.

I repeat, nobody should be forced to do what they don't want to do, and is against their religious beliefs, but your suggestion to segregate expensive health facilities on religious grounds hardly sounds ethical to me.


Why is it so hard for YOU to accept that perhaps it's time for YOU and those who share your values to step up to the plate and provide what you think are necessary services, rather than leaning on the Catholic healthcare facilities?

I think it was a mistake to allow primary health care facilities to have been developed, in part with everyone's tax dollars. These hospitals have suggested that will close rather than even allow their facilities to be used for anything other than Catholic approved health care.

If they did, then everyone else would have to build new facilities, or buy them out, but I find nothing admirable in that scenario, or your suggestion of religious segregation of health care outside of the law of the land.

436 ClaudeMonet  Sun, May 16, 2010 3:22:51pm

re: #433 kirkspencer

Would you like to give some examples of putting itself in a position to blame DoD, and of putting Defense in untenable, unwinnable positions?

I'll ante by pointing out Bremer's CPA and indeed most of Iraq for the first three years to include the six months preceding, were all DoD.

VietNam

437 ClaudeMonet  Sun, May 16, 2010 3:28:28pm

re: #421 reine.de.tout

I didn't say they were
Daughter's boyfriend is atheist, and strongly pro-life.

Naso seems to think it's perfectly OK to be oh so happy that the Catholic hospitals provide service where none exists; EXCEPT when the service doesn't live up to what HE believes should exist. I'm suggesting, then, that he put together a coalition of atheist to provide those services. I'm amazed that he missed that in my response, and that he continues to insist that THE CATHOLICS do it, in spite of it being contradictory to Catholic belief.
sheesh.

Agreed. OTOH, have you ever seen/read/heard the fight that Catholic (or any other) hospitals put up whenever someone wants to set up a new one? With all the regulatory and political bullsh** that the newcomer has to go through, it's a miracle that any new hospitals go up--except expansion of existing ones, which somehow never have to jump through nearly as many hoops.

"Catholic hospitals should not have to perform medical services that are against Church doctrine" sounds reasonable--except in cases like this one. I can't see how refusing to perform a procedure necessary to save a life is in accordance with the ethical practice of medicine.

438 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 16, 2010 3:42:22pm

re: #435 Naso Tang

I have made a suggestion in that regard. Catholic hospitals are not run on charity alone. They receive state and federal funds, and operate as businesses, do they not? I suspect that not only Catholics are employed there, including medical staff. When they have become the primary health providers in an area, because it made no sense to duplicate facilities on idealogical grounds alone, then the decent thing to do would be for them to also respect other people's wishes and allow those staff who are willing to do so, to provide services that the Catholic staff don't want to.

It is not simply "ideological" grounds, it is a matter of deep belief that Catholics, including those facilities owned by Catholics, would be engaging in improper and sinful behavior if they provide services antithetical to Catholic belief. I have explained this before to you, but you don't seem to get it.


I repeat, nobody should be forced to do what they don't want to do, and is against their religious beliefs, but your suggestion to segregate expensive health facilities on religious grounds hardly sounds ethical to me.

And your demand that Catholic facilities provide services contrary to Catholic belief is not ethical, and in fact, it is sheer arrogance - it is the imposition of YOUR will on those who believe differently. Why is that so hard for you to grasp? Or are you just so very certain of your superiority that it doesn't matter to you?

I think it was a mistake to allow primary health care facilities to have been developed, in part with everyone's tax dollars. These hospitals have suggested that will close rather than even allow their facilities to be used for anything other than Catholic approved health care.

If they did, then everyone else would have to build new facilities, or buy them out, but I find nothing admirable in that scenario, or your suggestion of religious segregation of health care outside of the law of the land.

If you own a building or facility, you have every right in the world to say what it will or will not be used for. That you believe the same courtesy should not extend to Catholics - well, again, your lack of respect is showing, as is your arrogance.

I think what will ultimately happen is that Catholic hospitals will close. Better for everyone all the way around, right? Besides which, then you and your group can get together and see to it those services are provided. And you can ensure the services are provided the way YOU think they should be.
I would be more than happy to turn it all over to you.

I have a friend who sat on the ethics committee of a Catholic hospital, and he said they are faced with decisions like this one very often, and often decide as this committee did. He says that the Right to Life movement would be appalled at the number of abortions (and tubal ligations and vasectomies and palliative care) that are done in Catholic hospitals after review from an ethics committee, and often, consultation with the local bishop.

I'm sure these are extreme cases, and these decisions are painful to make for those involved.

But, let's get rid of Catholic hospitals, it's a mistake to allow them to continue to provide services because they won't do it freely for all, but only in certain extreme cases.

Naso, again - put together a group of folks like you, and get this thing going! It can be done. Those icky Catholics who got these facilities started, started with nothing, and managed to do it. Surely a person of your superiority can get the ball rolling.

439 kirkspencer  Sun, May 16, 2010 3:47:07pm

re: #436 ClaudeMonet

VietNam

Ah? Oddly, I thought that to be a joint screw-up because of the President's insistence. General Taylor (Chairman, JCS) was certainly a major supporter of the action. McNamara, SecDef, was also a major pusher for the involvement.

No, I'm afraid DoD can't pretend State drug them into VietNam. At best they can blame the President and his "Pay any price" position. Try again.

440 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, May 16, 2010 4:14:12pm

re: #432 iceweasel

I call bullshit.

I do as well. And the use of the acronym "PBA" tells me where reading's being done.

441 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 16, 2010 6:28:19pm

re: #438 reine.de.tout

re: #438 reine.de.tout

It is not simply "ideological" grounds, it is a matter of deep belief that Catholics, including those facilities owned by Catholics, would be engaging in improper and sinful behavior if they provide services antithetical to Catholic belief. I have explained this before to you, but you don't seem to get it.

I'm sorry that you cannot distinguish between arguments for compromise and those of arrogance and disrespect.

You sound like you think it is perfectly OK to have been able to develop the sole hospital in a given region, and then dictate your religious beliefs to all those who come there for help.

I see a distinction between what people are forced to do and what facilities are used for.

It appears that you extend that demand for respect, and I do respect your right to your beliefs, to inanimate objects that you own even if circumstances have developed so that others have become dependent on those objects.

You are not arguing your right to not do things that are against your religion, but your right to deny that to others if you control the assets that they could use.

442 iceweasel  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:45:50pm

re: #440 SanFranciscoZionist

I do as well. And the use of the acronym "PBA" tells me where reading's being done.

Really? Where? I didn't know about this...

443 reine.de.tout  Sun, May 16, 2010 7:52:03pm

re: #441 Naso Tang

re: #438 reine.de.tout


I'm sorry that you cannot distinguish between arguments for compromise and those of arrogance and disrespect.

Oh, bullshit. I can distinguish this just fine. Your idea of "compromise" is that people do things they way YOU have decided they need to be done. No compromise there.

A compromise is when YOU decide that certain services are critical but not being provided sufficiently, and then you take steps to have them available. A compromise is NOT forcing Catholics to do what you think they ought to do when that is contrary to Catholic belief. If that's what you think a "comprimise" is, you need to look it up.

You sound like you think it is perfectly OK to have been able to develop the sole hospital in a given region, and then dictate your religious beliefs to all those who come there for help.

Nope. What I see is that in regions where there is a need, it has been the CATHOLICS that have stepped up to the plate to provide them - not those of your persuasion. And in your responses, you continue to argue against the thought that perhaps those of your persuasion should take on some responsibility for providing these services, instead, wishing to impose your version of what should be on people who don't think the way you do. Utter arrogance.

I see a distinction between what people are forced to do and what facilities are used for.

It appears that you extend that demand for respect, and I do respect your right to your beliefs, to inanimate objects that you own even if circumstances have developed so that others have become dependent on those objects.

You are not arguing your right to not do things that are against your religion, but your right to deny that to others if you control the assets that they could use.

I make no demands for respect. It's been you who have stated that you respected a person's right to their beleifs. The only flaw in that is that you expect people to bend to your will. That's not respect. Not by a long shot, not in anybody's book. That is arrogance.

I have no wish to deny anyone the services they need. I do take issue with your attempt to FORCE Catholic hospitals to provide those services that YOU have decided are necessary. If they are so necessary, again, get off your butt and get the ball rolling to make sure those services are provided, and I will not be telling you what you should or should not do.

You prefer to sit in the security and comfort of your home, knowing that Catholic hospitals provide tons of medical care for people in need, and then you complain when they do not provide certain care that is against Catholic belief, but which you think should be provided. What a lazy bum! With all your professed "concern" about the needs of people for certain services, you have no desire to help people get those services, OTHER than forcing Catholic hospitals to provide them against Catholic belief. If it so needs to be done - YOU do it. YOU take action and get the ball rolling and do something. You have the concerns, you take care of it, don't demand that someone else take care of it.

You keep arguing against that idea, and I can only assume it is because such action would require a smidgeon of self-sacrifice and you don't care to make that effort. So be it. But quit your bitching.

444 Sacred Plants  Mon, May 17, 2010 3:26:10am

re: #441 Naso Tang

The problem with this issue is that the crowd which is very unlikely to allow a doctor to kill one patient for the sake of another is the same that is very likely to allow a cop to kill one person for the sake of another, and vice versa.

If these people were serious about human life they would not follow that double standard.

445 reine.de.tout  Mon, May 17, 2010 4:59:22am

re: #444 Sacred Plants

The problem with this issue is that the crowd which is very unlikely to allow a doctor to kill one patient for the sake of another is the same that is very likely to allow a cop to kill one person for the sake of another, and vice versa.

If these people were serious about human life they would not follow that double standard.

If you are including me in that crowd you think is not serious about human life, think again.

446 Sacred Plants  Tue, May 18, 2010 4:45:06am

re: #445 reine.de.tout

Sorry, can´t see from here whether the shoe fits.


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