Rand Paul Steps In It

Politics • Views: 2,995

Well, Rand Paul really stepped deep into the muck yesterday with his painful waffling about the Civil Rights Act. The right wing blogosphere is in full-throated excuse-making mode this morning. Even Dave Weigel is desperately trying to spin this as being a “principled libertarian” stance, because as a libertarian himself he’s evidently overjoyed to have someone like Paul elected.

Paul’s position that he wouldn’t have voted for the Civil Rights Act is a principled stance. And that principle can be succinctly stated: property rights take precedence over human rights.

This is a debate that’s been settled in this country for decades. And now the far right is making it an issue again.

Rand Paul isn’t responsible for those who support him, of course, but this is the reason why the John Birch Society and the neo-Nazis at Stormfront are celebrating Rand Paul’s victory.

And this is far from Rand Paul’s only extreme view. He’s also an anti-abortion fanatic, a supporter of the absolutist Human Life Amendment which will deny women abortions under all circumstances. How does he square this with libertarianism? And more importantly, how do those who are making excuses for his bigotry because of their own libertarian beliefs (such as Dave Weigel) reconcile this?

This isn’t libertarianism, it’s far right John Birch Society-influenced paranoia masquerading as libertarianism. And it’s fooling a lot of people who ought to know better.

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267 comments
1 Mr. Crankypants  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:20:24am

Rand Paul...Wonder if he was named after Ayn

2 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:20:34am
And this is far from Rand Paul’s only extreme view. He’s also an anti-abortion fanatic, a supporter of the absolutist Human Life Amendment which will deny women abortions under all circumstances. How does he square this with libertarianism? And more importantly, how do those who are making excuses for his bigotry because of their own libertarian beliefs (such as Dave Weigel) reconcile this?

This is what makes me suspect that Rand might actually be a racist. Although I don't think there's any evidence of racial statements from him it does seem that he's using his fundamentalist libertarianism as an excuse for some pretty extreme ideas.

3 Randall Gross  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:20:55am

Rand Paul is riding the backs of bigots to try to get into office and he knows it. That's why he waffled worse than Kerry ever did and never really answered the question yesterday. He's the darling of his dad's dynastic political machine, composed of troofers, kookspiracists, Birchers and other assorted racist dimfucks.

4 Guanxi88  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:21:04am

re: #1 PT Barnum

Rand Paul...Wonder if he was named after Ayn

I'd hope so; any other explanation of so odd a moniker could only be worse.

5 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:21:07am

Market libertarianism mixed with extreme social conservatism is a fucking ugly thing to see.

6 Mr. Crankypants  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:21:20am

Anybody ever wonder how many people became libertarians if they read Atlas Shrugged after they were teenagers, and after they were experienced enough to understand what a stupid fucking writer Rand was?

7 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:21:38am

My thoughts on what libertarianism means to me.

1. Pretty much let people live and do what they want as long as it's legal and no one gets hurt.

2. Leave my money alone. I can spend it better than you can.

Am I missing something?

8 allegro  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:22:19am

He appears to be a neat little package of racism and misogyny tied up with a bow of libertarian "freedom". Pretty revolting and I'm delighted to see it exposed to the light.

9 Randall Gross  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:22:49am

re: #2 Killgore Trout

This is what makes me suspect that Rand might actually be a racist. Although I don't think there's any evidence of racial statements from him it does seem that he's using his fundamentalist libertarianism as an excuse for some pretty extreme ideas.

Exactly, and his willingness to warp beyond recognition the real libertarian stance on open borders and commerce is also very telling. The principle he won't bend is property rights vs human rights....

10 Mr. Crankypants  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:22:54am

re: #7 Oh no...Sand People!

My thoughts on what libertarianism means to me.

1. Pretty much let people live and do what they want as long as it's legal and no one gets hurt.

2. Leave my money alone. I can spend it better than you can.

Am I missing something?

The libertarians like Rand Paul would modify your nobody gets hurt to nobody like me gets hurt. Everyone else, fuck em.

11 Guanxi88  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:23:09am

Ya know the worst part about all this?

Rand Paul's the more respectable of the two Pauls on the national stage.

Oh, I almost forgot:

Paul/Paul '12!

12 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:23:41am

re: #6 PT Barnum

Anybody ever wonder how many people became libertarians if they read Atlas Shrugged after they were teenagers, and after they were experienced enough to understand what a stupid fucking writer Rand was?

I will admit, Ayn Rand has a special place in my heart. Momentous occasion reading that book.

13 Mr. Crankypants  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:24:31am

Back in the 70s there was a move to get movie actor Claude Akin and Agriculture Secretary Earl Butz to run together, just so there would be bumper stickers readin Akin Butz

14 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:24:36am

re: #10 PT Barnum

The libertarians like Rand Paul would modify your nobody gets hurt to nobody like me gets hurt. Everyone else, fuck em.

That's what is so upsetting.

15 Guanxi88  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:24:46am

re: #9 Thanos

Exactly, and his willingness to warp beyond recognition the real libertarian stance on open borders and commerce is also very telling. The principle he won't bend is property rights vs human rights...

Well now, open borders and the free flow of labor presuppose the absence of certain elements of infrastructure (the social welfare state) that are rather well established here now. Wholly impractical to open the borders, even as it is wholly impractical to get rid of the s/w state apparatus.

16 Mr. Crankypants  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:24:49am

re: #12 Oh no...Sand People!

I will admit, Ayn Rand has a special place in my heart. Momentous occasion reading that book.

How old were you at the time?

17 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:24:53am

re: #9 Thanos

I think a lot of libertarian philosophers base human rights on property rights-- that your own body (and its actions) are your 'property'.

I find that rather ass-backwards. I prefer Georgist types, who view property rights as stemming from human rights.

18 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:25:20am

re: #16 PT Barnum

How old were you at the time?

It was just last year.

19 Randall Gross  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:25:45am

Charles is closer to being a "true" libertarian than Paul is. Paul is way of synch with libertarianism on Isolationism, Social issues, and commerce. He's a bullshit frat boy poser.

20 Randall Gross  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:26:21am

/pimf way out of synch

21 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:26:27am

re: #18 Oh no...Sand People!

So, 31. Woot.

22 teleskiguy  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:26:59am

The Maddow interview was ludicrous. He couldn't give one damn straight answer on whether or not private businesses should be able to discriminate based on race. And that damn comment about how the owner of a building shouldn't have to spend money on an elevator when a crippled person regularly uses the building ("just have 'em work on the first floor!) was just . . . was just . . . I'm at a loss of words now. Disgusting!

I hope KY doesn't elect this asshat. If Rand Paul gets elected to a 6 years senate term, I will have lost a little more hope in this country.

23 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:27:03am

For anyone who doesn't know Henry George, by the way, he's one of my favorite political/economic theorists. And he totally called what would happen under Marxism:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

24 Mr. Crankypants  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:27:57am

I have a problem with the whole "leave my money alone." thing. If you benefit from the infrastructure of government and the order provided by the police, fire and etc., shouldn't you participate in their upkeep?

Libertarianism too often devolves into a sort of sanctioned selfishness that completely ignores the benefits to everyone of not having people starving in the streets and being well educated.

25 zora  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:28:16am

[Link: www.theatlantic.com...]

The Proud Ignorance of Rand Paul

...But what about red-lining? Does Paul know anything about blockbusting? Does he think banks should be able to have a policy of not lending to black businesses? Does he think real-estate agents should be able to discriminate? Does he think private homeowner groups should be able to band together and keep out blacks? Jews? Gays? Latinos?

I think there's this sense that it's OK to be ignorant about the Civil Rights Act because it's a "black issue." I'm not a lawyer, but my sense is that for a senator to be ignorant of the Civil Rights Act, is not simply to be ignorant of a "black issue," but to be ignorant of one of the most important pieces of legislation ever passed. This isn't like not knowing the days of Kwanzaa, this is like not knowing what caused the Civil War. It's just embarrassing--except Paul is too ignorant to be embarrassed.

I'm sure Paul's defenders will dismiss this interview as a lefty hit-job. But Maddow gave him every opportunity to correct the record, or defend it, and Paul answered with a series of feints and dodges. Not once did he stand up and throw a real punch. You're left wondering how he came to his position and what, precisely, is really at work here. I chose ignorance because it gives him as much credit as intelligently possible. Anything more, in 2010, in the United States Senate, is disgraceful.

26 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:28:26am

re: #6 PT Barnum

Anybody ever wonder how many people became libertarians if they read Atlas Shrugged after they were teenagers, and after they were experienced enough to understand what a stupid fucking writer Rand was?

Oh, that was me, by the way. I got over it in less than a year, though, mainly by reading William James and Henry George.

27 Randall Gross  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:28:50am

The fact that a slime like Rand Paul could win even a primary in this country in this century just goes beyond disgusting.

28 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:28:58am
Republican Senate candidate Rand Paul released a statement today "unequivocally" asserting that "I will not support any efforts to repeal the Civil Rights Act of 1964."

Well gee, Dr. Paul, that's awfully kind of you.

29 Guanxi88  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:29:19am

re: #28 Stanley Sea

Well gee, Dr. Paul, that's awfully kind of you.

Mighty whi....

30 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:29:44am

re: #28 Stanley Sea

Well gee, Dr. Paul, that's awfully kind of you.

Link?

31 Randall Gross  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:30:13am

re: #15 Guanxi88

Are you by chance "rationalizing for Rand" there?

32 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:30:18am

re: #24 PT Barnum

I have a problem with the whole "leave my money alone." thing. If you benefit from the infrastructure of government and the order provided by the police, fire and etc., shouldn't you participate in their upkeep?

Libertarianism too often devolves into a sort of sanctioned selfishness that completely ignores the benefits to everyone of not having people starving in the streets and being well educated.

Yes, but my money is going to a whole lot more than just 'National defense, roads, post office and fire trucks.'

As one who could care less about the abortion debate, I shouldn't have money funding them overseas...among other BS items.

33 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:30:26am

re: #30 Walter L. Newton

Link?

Sorry

[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

34 Guanxi88  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:30:41am

re: #27 Thanos

The fact that a slime like Rand Paul could win even a primary in this country in this century just goes beyond disgusting.

What do you suppose it says about the state of politics that folk like this are finding either enthusiastic or even grudging support from folk who should, as others have noted, know better?

35 Guanxi88  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:31:54am

re: #31 Thanos

Are you by chance "rationalizing for Rand" there?

Not by a long shot; you can no more rationalize for Rand than you can square the circle. Just an observation about the way two issues which invite absolutists are fundamentally impossible of radical action.

You can no more open borders than you can get rid of the social welfare state.

36 allegro  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:32:19am

re: #34 Guanxi88

What do you suppose it says about the state of politics that folk like this are finding either enthusiastic or even grudging support from folk who should, as others have noted, know better?

I suspect the term "low information voters" pretty much covers it.

37 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:32:50am

re: #36 allegro

I suspect the term "low information voters" pretty much covers it.

I blame sports.

//

38 Randall Gross  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:32:53am

re: #34 Guanxi88

What do you suppose it says about the state of politics that folk like this are finding either enthusiastic or even grudging support from folk who should, as others have noted, know better?

It tells me that a lot of people are blowing a lot of cash to get the dying threads of last century bigotry resurrected.

39 Mr. Crankypants  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:33:06am

re: #32 Oh no...Sand People!

Yes, but my money is going to a whole lot more than just 'National defense, roads, post office and fire trucks.'

As one who could care less about the abortion debate, I shouldn't have money funding them overseas...among other BS items.

If you don't care about the abortion debate, then is it about providing aid and support to other countries? How far do you think we would have gotten with Pakistan if we hadn't already been giving them money and could hold out the promise of more if they let us fly missions over their airspace?

40 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:33:19am

re: #33 Stanley Sea

Wow. He dodges and weasels around the question, and then accuses other people of trying to score cheap tricks by hammering him on being a weasel.

And he wouldn't support the repeal of it-- great, nobody fucking asked you that question, and pretending like that was what he was asked is just more sliming around by him.

41 wrenchwench  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:34:12am

re: #32 Oh no...Sand People!

As one who could care less about the abortion debate, I shouldn't have money funding them overseas...among other BS items.

If there are, in your view, legitimate reasons to help on health issues overseas, to deny funding to any program solely because of any link to abortion, even talking about the existence of the option, is stupid.

42 lostlakehiker  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:34:16am

Banning abortion altogether isn't pro-life from my perspective. First, it means that sometimes the mother just has to die. And then her fetus dies anyway.
How does that work out to pro life?

Second, a couple pushing 40 must think long and hard about whether to have a child. The risk of Down syndrome rises dramatically at that age. A couple unwilling to risk having to take on the responsibility of caregiver for a Down-syndrome victim would have to call off having a child, if all abortions were illegal.

So in one situation, this hypothetical law gives us two deaths instead of one. And in the other, it gives us zero births instead of one. Results of law are 180 from declared intent of law.

43 Guanxi88  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:34:28am

re: #38 Thanos

It tells me that a lot of people are blowing a lot of cash to get the dying threads of last century bigotry resurrected.

Seems like an odd hobby, but then, who can say?

To me, it looks like a sort of reflexive and (in their perception) "defensive" radicalization; after hearing for ages about how radical the other guys are, the idea occurs to them that maybe having a few true believers on their side might not be a bad thing.

44 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:35:07am

re: #1 PT Barnum

Rand Paul...Wonder if he was named after Ayn

His first name is actually Randal. "Randy" would be the usual nickname associated with this, however, so "Rand" was almost certainly chosen for its associations.

45 Guanxi88  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:36:37am

re: #44 Shiplord Kirel

I've heard for years, and believe it sound advice: NEVER trust a man with TWO first names.

46 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:37:43am

How does this type of libertarian view apply to businesses where pollution is a byproduct? He's against the EPA I assume? We'll leave it up to the business and the local city council to regulate?

47 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:37:46am

re: #45 Guanxi88

I've heard for years, and believe it sound advice: NEVER trust a man with TWO first names.

John Wayne and John Ford would like to have a word with you.

48 keithgabryelski  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:38:21am

I actually don't think Rand Paul is racist -- I actually take him on his word that his despises racism in all forms and would never support a company that engaged in such actively.

But, when he says "I wouldn't associate with racists" -- that is clearly untrue, since he has no trouble taking money from racists for his campaign.

But, the real issue is that he is incapable, IMHO, of making decisions or coming up with solutions that may have grayish areas if looked at from an ideological viewpoint.

Rand, like is father Ron has little ability to govern or find middle ground on issues because they fail to see any position but the brightly defined spot that is their own worldview -- and since their worldview is perfect their is no need to discuss other positions.

This is a standard problem with Libertarians -- I will give Rand and Ron credit, though: at least they stick by their Libertarian values...

Except Rand is anti-abortion.

and he's anti-immigration (shut down the borders completely kind of anti-immigration)

and he's anti-gay marriage rights.

so, there goes the "sticking true to the libertarian platform", i guess.

49 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:38:22am

re: #39 PT Barnum

If you don't care about the abortion debate, then is it about providing aid and support to other countries? How far do you think we would have gotten with Pakistan if we hadn't already been giving them money and could hold out the promise of more if they let us fly missions over their airspace?

'Aid and support' is super ambiguous.

Hell, get us out of Afghanistan, at this point it's a waste of time in my opinion.

I am completely for free trade. But alot of our 'aid and support' does nothing but assist the despots and thugs to stay in power when they keep it for themselves as opposed to letting their people have it.

"Am I the world's' keeper?" No.

Trade away to our hearts content. But all of these foreign handouts are ridiculous.

50 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:38:42am

re: #47 Obdicut

John Wayne and John Ford would like to have a word with you.

Along with Clark Kent.

51 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:39:00am

re: #46 Stanley Sea

How does this type of libertarian view apply to businesses where pollution is a byproduct? He's against the EPA I assume? We'll leave it up to the business and the local city council to regulate?

Probably.

52 Randall Gross  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:39:02am

re: #35 Guanxi88

Not by a long shot; you can no more rationalize for Rand than you can square the circle. Just an observation about the way two issues which invite absolutists are fundamentally impossible of radical action.

You can no more open borders than you can get rid of the social welfare state.

Right, and true objectivists if they really want to be effective and change the world need to recognize reality, so few fo them do, and end up becoming posers like Rand Paul.

53 Guanxi88  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:39:24am

re: #47 Obdicut

John Wayne and John Ford would like to have a word with you.

John Wayne isn't a name - it's a legend, and so excluded.

John Ford - "Ford" is a lousy first name, and he was Irish, so he's excluded.

54 Kragar  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:39:27am

re: #50 Stanley Sea

Along with Clark Kent.

Bruce Wayne.

55 darthstar  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:39:27am

Thanks, Rand...we needed someone to fire up the Democratic base. Maybe a platform of 'repeal the civil rights act' would be a good one...the 'trash Nancy Pelosi' trick didn't prove to be too effective in PA-12, so this is the next logical step in your proregression.

56 Guanxi88  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:39:47am

re: #50 Stanley Sea

Along with Clark Kent.

Clark Kent? That nebbishy little ink-stained wretch?

57 Nick Morgan  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:40:15am

re: #53 Guanxi88

John Wayne isn't a name - it's a legend, and so excluded.

John Ford - "Ford" is a lousy first name, and he was Irish, so he's excluded.

I Like Ford Prefect. :)

58 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:41:27am

re: #50 Stanley Sea

Along with Clark Kent.

And Elton John.

59 Olsonist  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:43:21am

re: #48 keithgabryelski

Rand Paul is a nice person and nice people aren't racist because it wouldn't be nice. So Rand Paul isn't a racist because Rand Paul wouldn't be nice then. So the idea that Rand Paul supports racism of any form not only is uncool but really changes the subject from what libertarianism is all about. Freedom. And stuff.

60 Summer Seale  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:43:34am

I find it strangely satisfying that Charles put it so succinctly:

Paul’s position that he wouldn’t have voted for the Civil Rights Act is a principled stance. And that principle can be succinctly stated: property rights take precedence over human rights.

Because, you see, that was the entire point of trying to free the slaves. They were viewed as property and given no rights, whereas others saw them as human beings and tried to give them human rights.

Which tells you exactly where Rand Paul lands in this debate: Ass backwards in a civil war that we fought and won almost one hundred and fifty years ago.

That's exactly where his principles lie, and why he's such a backwards idiot.

61 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:43:52am

re: #53 Guanxi88

John Wayne isn't a name - it's a legend, and so excluded.

John Ford - "Ford" is a lousy first name, and he was Irish, so he's excluded.

Ford Prefect is a perfectly good name. Nothing strange about it.

Bruce Lee and Ray Leonard also have an appointment to see you.

62 Randall Gross  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:44:27am

re: #43 Guanxi88

Seems like an odd hobby, but then, who can say?

To me, it looks like a sort of reflexive and (in their perception) "defensive" radicalization; after hearing for ages about how radical the other guys are, the idea occurs to them that maybe having a few true believers on their side might not be a bad thing.

It's a desperation move my Republicans and Conservatives, they are unwilling to re invent and redefine conservatism for the modern world, and therefor their base continues to shrink. With the growing stink of desperation they are removing barriers and taboos to let the unclean back in so they are wide open to the crazy clowns like a blowzy aged whore on skid row...

63 Randall Gross  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:44:57am

/pimf my == "by"

64 Randall Gross  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:46:31am

Hell just the other day Frum actually linked to an RSM article. I see little hope for the R's.

65 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:47:18am

re: #62 Thanos

The GOP and many self-described conservatives are getting more and more radical all the time. I wish that those who wanted vast, dramatic change to our country would have the grace not to describe themselves as 'conservative'.

66 Randall Gross  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:47:57am

re: #65 Obdicut

Agreed there.

67 lostlakehiker  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:48:41am

re: #24 PT Barnum

I have a problem with the whole "leave my money alone." thing. If you benefit from the infrastructure of government and the order provided by the police, fire and etc., shouldn't you participate in their upkeep?

Libertarianism too often devolves into a sort of sanctioned selfishness that completely ignores the benefits to everyone of not having people starving in the streets and being well educated.

Libertarians tend to be blind to all sorts of "commons" situations. The cost to everybody, if everybody grazes as many sheep as he likes on the village green, is that it's the village dustbowl and the sheep are scrawny if they live at all.

The cost to everybody, if only the rich educate their children, is that the village is backward. In the next generation, there are fewer rich, and the village becomes yet more backward. it's a death spiral.

The cost to everybody, if each family decides for itself how much to contribute to providing for the common defense, is that the barbarians swarm over the gates and cannot be met with superior force. It's not a death spiral because it doesn't last that long. It's just curtains for the village.

There are many things that must be done in a community, and that won't be done through the auspices of capitalism. Government is necessary.

There is another side to this, though. Liberal thinking seems to find in every problem an instance of a job for government. Do too few people own homes? Make laws that will encourage home ownership. Do too few people own computers, Ipods, flat screen TV's, fine brandies, Persian rugs? Send in government dollars. They seem to think that those scraps of paper they can order up from their printing presses, and today's electronic versions thereof, have actual value and that running the printing presses is just like the real work of fashioning computers, distilling brandies and weaving rugs. At some point, selfishness activates human energy that would otherwise languish. Inasmuch as we have land, water, sunlight, etc. the limiting factor is human energy. Deployed in pursuit of individual goals, it is the font of all production.

68 cliffster  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:48:48am

re: #38 Thanos

It tells me that a lot of people are blowing a lot of cash to get the dying threads of last century bigotry resurrected.

Know why people like Rand Paul are garnering support? Because we have a federal government that is driving the country into debt at a rate so fast that it's nauseating to people. I disagree with his position on the civil rights act, but I very much welcome the discussion about turning back the clock on what people feel Washington should spend money on.

69 Kragar  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:48:54am

re: #65 Obdicut

The GOP and many self-described conservatives are getting more and more radical all the time. I wish that those who wanted vast, dramatic change to our country would have the grace not to describe themselves as 'conservative'.

I used to think of myself as a conservative until these asshats came along. Now when I hear it, it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

70 Aceofwhat?  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:49:22am

re: #51 Killgore Trout

Probably.



How vote you on proposition 482, where Le Grand Paper Mill will excrete all waste into the river out back, from whence it will flow down to those asshats in the godless town of Bumpkin?

"Aye"
"Aye"
"Aye"
"Aye"
"Aye"

...

Yeah, local pollution control...sounds a little like local climate change...heh

71 goddamnedfrank  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:49:26am

re: #24 PT Barnum

I have a problem with the whole "leave my money alone." thing. If you benefit from the infrastructure of government and the order provided by the police, fire and etc., shouldn't you participate in their upkeep?

Libertarianism too often devolves into a sort of sanctioned selfishness that completely ignores the benefits to everyone of not having people starving in the streets and being well educated.

Libertarian philosophy would deem this song's message as promoting a form of oppressive liberal tyranny. They would deny that they have any dependance on, obligation to, or indeed the existential necessity of the very people that comprise the community they lean upon for their own needs:

Youtube Video

Libertarianism is at best a phase, its adherents little more than spoiled goddamned children throwing temper tantrums in a room full of responsible, realistic adults. In the worst cases it devolves into a permanent case of arrested development.

72 allegro  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:49:47am

I've been watching the local news the past few days for reports of the Texas BofE book nonsense. So last night on the NBC affiliate, a report finally showed up, probably due to the protest in Austin yesterday decrying the attempts to theocratize and conservopedia the text books. I found it interesting that the only protest sign that was very briefly shown was one protesting the influence of liberalism. There were no details of any kind describing what the changes were that are objectionable - supporting my feelings that not many people here even realize what's going on. It was interesting to see a Texas state congressman, Sylvester Turner proposing legislation to deny funding for the altered texts.

73 Guanxi88  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:50:03am

re: #58 Mad Al-Jaffee

And Elton John.

Elton is a surname, so the rule doesn't apply.

74 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:50:14am

Property, if well cared for, outlasts humans. It should take precedence.

75 Randall Gross  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:50:52am

re: #68 cliffster

Subject for another thread, unless you are actually trying to defend RP here?

76 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:51:15am

re: #74 Cato the Elder

Cared for by humans, that is.

So, no.

77 Aceofwhat?  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:52:02am

re: #74 Cato the Elder

Property, if well cared for, outlasts humans. It should take precedence.

CATO!!

Glad you're around.

78 teleskiguy  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:52:12am

I got a little chuckle from this quote from Oliver Willis. “[I]nstead of boycotting [the] bus, Rosa Parks should have been an entrepreneur and started her own bus service. let the market decide.”

Uh huh.

79 AK-47%  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:52:21am

The Dredd Scott Decision was about property rights having precedence over civil rights. Wonder how Rand woulda stood on that one...

As I undersan´d, he was not named after Ayn, Rand is short for Randall.

80 Guanxi88  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:52:28am

re: #61 Obdicut

Bruce Lee and Ray Leonard also have an appointment to see you.

Bruce wasn't Mr. Lee's first name; Ray Leonard's gonna have to wait for (his cousin?) Elmore to finish having lunch with me first.

Have my secretary try to pencil him in for next week.

81 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:52:29am

One of the beefs I have is the current 'war on drugs'.

420 Legalize it. The law is already in place to handle it. Treat it like a DUI. And I bet Wal-Mart alone could dent the colombian and other south american countries drug lords in a way our 'Aid and support' of throwing money and arms down their couldn't.

82 middy  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:52:45am

re: #65 Obdicut

The GOP and many self-described conservatives are getting more and more radical all the time. I wish that those who wanted vast, dramatic change to our country would have the grace not to describe themselves as 'conservative'.

Indeed. "Reactionaries" is a more suitable term.

83 Kragar  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:53:19am

re: #74 Cato the Elder

Property, if well cared for, outlasts humans. It should take precedence.

So if we could some how classify some people as property, then we would be protecting them.

/

84 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:53:21am

re: #73 Guanxi88

Elton is a surname, so the rule doesn't apply.

Okay then, Don Martin.

85 Olsonist  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:53:33am

re: #74 Cato the Elder

Property, if well cared for, outlasts humans. It should take precedence.

Apples, if well cared for, outlast oranges. They should take precedence.

86 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:53:34am

re: #76 Obdicut

Cared for by humans, that is.

So, no.

You always were too thick for my sarcasm.

87 Guanxi88  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:53:42am

re: #74 Cato the Elder

Property, if well cared for, outlasts humans. It should take precedence.

"Adorn the Hoboken that was given you at birth."

88 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:54:05am

re: #67 lostlakehiker

Libertarians tend to be blind to all sorts of "commons" situations. The cost to everybody, if everybody grazes as many sheep as he likes on the village green, is that it's the village dustbowl and the sheep are scrawny if they live at all.

The cost to everybody, if only the rich educate their children, is that the village is backward. In the next generation, there are fewer rich, and the village becomes yet more backward. it's a death spiral.

The cost to everybody, if each family decides for itself how much to contribute to providing for the common defense, is that the barbarians swarm over the gates and cannot be met with superior force. It's not a death spiral because it doesn't last that long. It's just curtains for the village.

It sounds to me that that right there is making the perfect case for our REPUBLIC!

Youtube Video

Not a Democracy.
There are many things that must be done in a community, and that won't be done through the auspices of capitalism. Government is necessary.

There is another side to this, though. Liberal thinking seems to find in every problem an instance of a job for government. Do too few people own homes? Make laws that will encourage home ownership. Do too few people own computers, Ipods, flat screen TV's, fine brandies, Persian rugs? Send in government dollars. They seem to think that those scraps of paper they can order up from their printing presses, and today's electronic versions thereof, have actual value and that running the printing presses is just like the real work of fashioning computers, distilling brandies and weaving rugs. At some point, selfishness activates human energy that would otherwise languish. Inasmuch as we have land, water, sunlight, etc. the limiting factor is human energy. Deployed in pursuit of individual goals, it is the font of all production.

89 Guanxi88  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:54:13am

re: #84 Mad Al-Jaffee

Okay then, Don Martin.

"Don" is an honorific title, clearly proving his involvement in the Sicilian Mafia.

90 the yankee  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:54:16am

This man needs to have an better understanding of the expression "pick you battles".

He would of been better off not saying a word till November.

91 davesax  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:54:30am

Andrew Sullivan is spinning this.

"This is why so many feel contempt for Rand Paul. But it's one reason I am glad he will be more integrated into the American conversation. I don't agree with Paul on the Civil Rights Act because I believe that the legacy of slavery and segregation made a drastic and historic redress morally vital for this country's coherence, integrity and unity. But was the Act in many respects an infringement of freedom? Of course it was. To bar private business owners from discriminating in employment would have been an unthinkable power for the federal government for much of American history..."

What happened to, "telling it straight". Why is American dialogue so full of spin?

92 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:54:37am

re: #80 Guanxi88

Good. Because Hank Aaron was also seen polishing his bat, Thurgood Marshall is deciding what name to give you, and Bill Russell is contemplating your 'dunkability'.

93 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:54:49am

re: #88 Oh no...Sand People!

Whoa! No idea what happened there...

PIMF

94 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:54:55am

re: #73 Guanxi88

Elton is a surname, so the rule doesn't apply.

Unless the meaning of the word "surname" has changed, no, it's not, it's a given name. One that he gave himself, to be sure, but still.

95 Kragar  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:55:06am

re: #89 Guanxi88

"Don" is an honorific title, clearly proving his involvement in the Sicilian Mafia.

Steve Martin

96 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:55:20am

re: #89 Guanxi88

"Don" is an honorific title, clearly proving his involvement in the Sicilian Mafia.

I think it's short for "Donald."

97 Guanxi88  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:56:05am

re: #94 Cato the Elder

Unless the meaning of the word "surname" has changed, no, it's not, it's a given name. One that he gave himself, to be sure, but still.

It's hardly my fault that Britisher confusion (as proved in their inversion of order of month and day in writing dates) should spill over and cause a man to write a surname where his nomen ought to be. Don't pin John Elton's goof on me.

98 Guanxi88  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:56:34am

re: #95 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Steve Martin

"Steve" is an honorific title, proving his involvement in the Comedic Mafia.

99 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:56:53am

re: #86 Cato the Elder

You always were too thick for my sarcasm.

I'm just a big dummy, yep. That's me.

There are some pieces of property I'd give my life defending. Not many, but some. Sometimes, property really is worth more than a human life.

But not often.

100 Aceofwhat?  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:57:00am

re: #92 Obdicut

Good. Because Hank Aaron was also seen polishing his bat, Thurgood Marshall is deciding what name to give you, and Bill Russell is contemplating your 'dunkability'.

Thurgood...that guy needed to become a justice. You can't go into sanitation engineering with that handle...just like Colt McCoy needed to be a QB and not a physicist.

101 cliffster  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:57:12am

re: #75 Thanos

Subject for another thread, unless you are actually trying to defend RP here?

Nope, subject for this thread. Rand Paul supports not spending away our great-grandkid's money. He is a candidate, and that's an important issue. No way you can get around that.

102 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:57:28am

Rand is trying to spin out of this.....

UPDATE: Paul’s Senate campaign released a lengthy statement following as backlash against his remarks swelled today. Here is the full statement:

.....

I unequivocally state that I will not support any efforts to repeal the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
....
Let me be clear: I support the Civil Rights Act because I overwhelmingly agree with the intent of the legislation, which was to stop discrimination in the public sphere and halt the abhorrent practice of segregation and Jim Crow laws.

As I have said in previous statements, sections of the Civil Rights Act were debated on Constitutional grounds when the legislation was passed. Those issues have been settled by federal courts in the intervening years.

My opponent’s statement on MSNBC Wednesday that I favor repeal of the Civil Rights Act was irresponsible and knowingly false. I hope he will correct the record and retract his claims.

103 Kragar  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:57:48am

re: #98 Guanxi88

"Steve" is an honorific title, proving his involvement in the Comedic Mafia.

Guanxi 88

104 Nick Morgan  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:58:19am

re: #84 Mad Al-Jaffee

Okay then, Don Martin.

Elton John's birth name is Reginald Dwight: two first names.

105 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:58:22am

re: #100 Aceofwhat?

My local florist is named Rocky Hardwick. He's in the wrong job.

106 Aceofwhat?  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:58:26am

bbl

107 Aceofwhat?  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:58:58am

re: #105 Obdicut

My local florist is named Rocky Hardwick. He's in the wrong job.

BINGO! How is that guy not an adult film star already??

108 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:59:14am

re: #101 cliffster

Rand Paul supports not spending away our great-grandkid's money. He is a candidate, and that's an important issue. No way you can get around that.


He's a lunatic. His fiscal ideas are nonsense just like his social ideas. The man's a lunatic and the fact that Tea Parties and Republicans are supporting him looks really really bad. This is just stupid.

109 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:59:17am

re: #101 cliffster

Nope, subject for this thread. Rand Paul supports not spending away our great-grandkid's money. He is a candidate, and that's an important issue. No way you can get around that.

You must be expecting infertile children if you think you'll only have one great-grandchild.

Anyway, the unborn do not have money.

110 Kragar  Thu, May 20, 2010 9:59:52am

re: #102 Killgore Trout

Rand is trying to spin out of this...

So, they've decided to go from winning the primary directly to madly flailing and covering their asses, skipping the usual step of campaigning against the other party's candidate. A bold strategy.

111 Nick Morgan  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:00:13am

re: #105 Obdicut

My local florist is named Rocky Hardwick. He's in the wrong job.

that's better than Dirk Diggler.

112 Randall Gross  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:00:19am

re: #101 cliffster

Nope, subject for this thread. Rand Paul supports not spending away our great-grandkid's money. He is a candidate, and that's an important issue. No way you can get around that.

Rand Paul is a populist opportunist who's jumped on the FOTD message. So we should coddle his bigot followers because he's saying the same shit everyone else is right now?

WOOOHOO! Let's follow anyone who says the right sloganzz!

113 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:00:24am

re: #101 cliffster

No, he supports trying to not spend our great-grandchildren's money. Whether or not what he proposes would actually achieve that is another question entirely. I think that they wouldn't.

Nobody is running on the campaign of spending our great-grandkid's money. If you want to talk about the economic opportunities of the future, then the most overwhelming issue for future economic well-being is AGW; that's the biggest challenge to our great-granchildren's ability to provide for themselves and to have property rights.

114 cliffster  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:00:38am

re: #108 Killgore Trout

He's a lunatic. His fiscal ideas are nonsense just like his social ideas. The man's a lunatic and the fact that Tea Parties and Republicans are supporting him looks really really bad. This is just stupid.

Fine. Get people in office who don't drive us hopelessly into debt, and you probably won't see people like him getting elected. Or even taken seriously.

115 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:00:42am

re: #99 Obdicut

I'm just a big dummy, yep. That's me.

There are some pieces of property I'd give my life defending. Not many, but some. Sometimes, property really is worth more than a human life.

But not often.

Really, do tell? What property would you give your life for? I can't think of any, in my case. Not a single thing.

116 Kragar  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:00:45am

re: #105 Obdicut

My local florist is named Rocky Hardwick. He's in the wrong job.

I once worked with a guy whose name was Mark O. Manlove

The poor poor bastard.

117 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:01:26am

re: #107 Aceofwhat?

BINGO! How is that guy not an adult film star already??

He's not even gay. He's a straight florist in San Francisco.

Damn good florist, though. His fresh-cut flowers last forever.

118 Guanxi88  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:01:30am

re: #105 Obdicut

My local florist is named Rocky Hardwick. He's in the wrong job.

Reminds me of a theory posited ages ago by an old college roommate:

he suggested that low-rent laundries and dry-cleaners were in fact fronts and prop-supply houses for low-end porno studios. His proof was that the clothes in the films always look old but very clean, just like what you'd find in a a lundry. "and besides," he'd say "we all know it doesn't take overnight to get my damned clothes clean and pressed; they're doing something with my stuff."

119 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:01:30am

re: #104 Nick Morgan

Elton John's birth name is Reginald Dwight: two first names.

His full name now is Sir Elton Hercules John.

*snicker*

120 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:01:44am

re: #102 Killgore Trout

Rand is trying to spin out of this...

Nobody accused him of wanting to repeal the Civil Rights Act, of course. Classic sleazy politician dodge ball.

121 Randall Gross  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:03:00am

re: #101 cliffster

Nope, subject for this thread. Rand Paul supports not spending away our great-grandkid's money. He is a candidate, and that's an important issue. No way you can get around that.

You know that shit doesn't fly here friend, Charles cut ties that were very firm with the Eurofascists because we don't get in bed with bigots -- no matter what other things they say they might support.

RP blathers all the populist agenda, believe him at your own risk.

He's a frat boy trying to fly into office on his daddy's bircher / stormfront political machine.

122 Kragar  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:03:01am

re: #120 Charles

Nobody accused him of wanting to repeal the Civil Rights Act, of course. Classic sleazy politician dodge ball.

When in doubt, change the question.

123 Guanxi88  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:03:16am

re: #111 Nick Morgan

that's better than Dirk Diggler.

, Attorney at Law.

There's a urologist in Austin: Dr. Dick Chopp; I kid you not.

Dr. Richard (Dick) Chopp is well known in the Austin community for performing Vasectomies.

124 davesax  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:03:29am

I think it's pretty sad that bloggers like Andrew Sullivan and Ezra Klein are actually treating this as if its anything more than racism.

125 AK-47%  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:03:32am

And I am sure he is not for repealing the Thirteenth Amendment, but would he have supported it?

/

126 engineer cat  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:03:46am

so what is the principle that rand paul is proposing to uphold? that laws should only be enforced in public places? private business owners shouldn't have laws "imposed" on them?

or are the civil rights statutes somehow different in kind than other laws?

127 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:04:03am

re: #115 Cato the Elder

Really, do tell? What property would you give your life for? I can't think of any, in my case. Not a single thing.

Mostly hypothetical situations involving works of art: I'd give my life to preserve written works, but of course those are so duplicated they really don't need it. I'd give my life to try to prevent the Golden Gate Bridge from being blown up, too-- even if there was no one on it.

My friend who's a Marine did almost die retrieving a fallen Marine's body-- I think that was worthy action, as well.

128 bluecheese  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:04:25am

re: #102 Killgore Trout

Rand is trying to spin out of this...

Why didn't he just say that last night? His hehawing and beating around the bush last night was just bizarre.....

I get the feeling that he really hasn't thought this through....

129 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:04:27am

re: #99 Obdicut

I'm just a big dummy, yep. That's me.

There are some pieces of property I'd give my life defending. Not many, but some. Sometimes, property really is worth more than a human life.

But not often.

My property is worth more than the life of someone trying to steal it or threaten me over it.

130 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:04:38am

re: #124 davesax

I think it's pretty sad that bloggers like Andrew Sullivan and Ezra Klein are actually treating this as if its anything more than racism.

Especially Sullivan, he would be ran out for being Gay if the Paulians take over.
Does he not see that?

131 Nick Morgan  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:04:47am

re: #119 Cato the Elder

I googled it (not that I doubted you...much) and it is true!

132 cliffster  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:05:43am

re: #112 Thanos

Rand Paul is a populist opportunist who's jumped on the FOTD message. So we should coddle his bigot followers because he's saying the same shit everyone else is right now?

WOOOHOO! Let's follow anyone who says the right sloganzz!

You asked how Rand Paul ever got taken seriously, and I said the reason is because the government is driving our economy into the ground and Paul is saying, "hey, let's stop driving the economy into the ground". No matter how much you dislike him, that is a message that is going to resonate very strongly with people.

133 ryannon  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:06:20am

re: #7 Oh no...Sand People!

My thoughts on what libertarianism means to me.

1. Pretty much let people live and do what they want as long as it's legal and no one gets hurt.

2. Leave my money alone. I can spend it better than you can.

Am I missing something?


LUAP DNAR!

134 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:06:32am

re: #129 rwdflynavy

My property is worth more than the life of someone trying to steal it or threaten me over it.

No, I disagree with that first statement entirely, unless you own the golden gate bridge or something else of monumental importance.

Is a fifty-cent candy bar worth more than a thief trying to steal it? Would you feel you had a moral right to shoot someone who was egging your house?

135 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:07:08am

re: #132 cliffster

To me, he's saying "Let's drive our economy into the ground and bring back discrimination while we're at it!"

136 bluecheese  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:07:46am

and i really don't understand why people who hate government want to run it.

137 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:07:53am

re: #127 Obdicut

Mostly hypothetical situations involving works of art: I'd give my life to preserve written works, but of course those are so duplicated they really don't need it. I'd give my life to try to prevent the Golden Gate Bridge from being blown up, too-- even if there was no one on it.

My friend who's a Marine did almost die retrieving a fallen Marine's body-- I think that was worthy action, as well.

The Marine thing, I can see.

I wouldn't give my life to protect any property on the planet.

Not the Mona Lisa. Not the Statue of Liberty. Not the Golden Gate Bridge, or the last American flag on the last hill of the last town to be conquered by the Chinese.

People, that's another story. If the guy swinging an axe for Mona had to cut his way through a gaggle of French schoolchildren (or any other kind), certainly.

Which makes it all the more high-larious that you missed the bitter laugh in my first post.

138 Aceofwhat?  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:07:55am

re: #132 cliffster

You asked how Rand Paul ever got taken seriously, and I said the reason is because the government is driving our economy into the ground and Paul is saying, "hey, let's stop driving the economy into the ground". No matter how much you dislike him, that is a message that is going to resonate very strongly with people.

yeah, you say that...but even aside from this civil rights stuff (and that is a HUGE aside), the first solutions out of his mouth include the words "gold standard".

that's when my eyes glaze over...why do they think this guy has more economic cred than Karl Marx? i can't figure it out...

139 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:08:07am

re: #133 ryannon

LUAP DNAR!

And he isn't even in line with those 2 things...

140 Guanxi88  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:08:15am

re: #134 Obdicut


Is a fifty-cent candy bar worth more than a thief trying to steal it? Would you feel you had a moral right to shoot someone who was egging your house?

Theft by force (or robbery) is almost certainly a case of the would-be perp positing the value of the item in question as higher than that of the owener - else, there'd be no threat of violence in the crime.

Did he claim he had a moral right to shoot someone egging his house?

141 Randall Gross  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:08:36am

re: #132 cliffster

You asked how Rand Paul ever got taken seriously, and I said the reason is because the government is driving our economy into the ground and Paul is saying, "hey, let's stop driving the economy into the ground". No matter how much you dislike him, that is a message that is going to resonate very strongly with people.

No, I didn't ask, you volunteered your "rationalization for rand" without me asking. I STATED:

The fact that a slime like Rand Paul could win even a primary in this country in this century just goes beyond disgusting.

142 Kragar  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:08:38am

Uh oh

Report: Landis admits doping and fingers Armstrong

(as an aside, is it just me or does that headline sound really dirty?)

NEW YORK — Disgraced American cyclist Floyd Landis has admitted to systematic use of performance-enhancing drugs and accused seven-time Tour de France champion Lance Armstrong of involvement in doping, the Wall Street Journal reported Thursday.

Landis, who was stripped of his 2006 Tour de France title for doping but had always denied cheating, sent a series of e-mails to cycling officials and sponsors acknowledging and detailing his long-term use of banned drugs, the newspaper said.

The report said Landis wrote in the e-mails that he started doping in 2002, his first year racing with the U.S. Postal Service team led by Armstrong. Landis also admitted to doping in an interview with ESPN.com.

Landis also accused American riders Levi Leipheimer and Dave Zabriskie and Armstrong's longtime coach, Johan Bruyneel, of involvement in doping, the Journal reported.

Armstrong is currently competing in the Tour of California and couldn't be reached for comment. Neither could Bruyneel, Leipheimer or Zabriskie.

143 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:08:45am

re: #129 rwdflynavy

My property is worth more than the life of someone trying to steal it or threaten me over it.

Mine too. But it's not worth mine. If I don't have a clear shot or I'm outnumbered, they can have my shit.

144 cliffster  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:08:49am

re: #121 Thanos

You know that shit doesn't fly here friend, Charles cut ties that were very firm with the Eurofascists because we don't get in bed with bigots -- no matter what other things they say they might support.

RP blathers all the populist agenda, believe him at your own risk.

He's a frat boy trying to fly into office on his daddy's bircher / stormfront political machine.

You seem to have appointed yourself Thread Police which I find a little odd. I really don't think you're paying any attention at all to what I'm saying.

145 Guanxi88  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:09:56am

re: #143 Cato the Elder

Mine too. But it's not worth mine. If I don't have a clear shot or I'm outnumbered, they can have my shit.

Wise man. Stuff is cheap, your life isn't.

146 Randall Gross  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:10:14am

re: #144 cliffster

You seem to have appointed yourself Thread Police which I find a little odd. I really don't think you're paying any attention at all to what I'm saying.

No, you seem to have anointed yourself "defender of Rand" but seem unwilling to wear the crown. No where did I ask, so don't lie.

147 Gus  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:10:31am

re: #102 Killgore Trout

Rand is trying to spin out of this...

I find this segment from Rand Paul to be, interesting:

The issue of civil rights is one with a tortured history in this country. We have made great strides, but there is still work to be done to ensure the great promise of Liberty is granted to all Americans.

Given his statements regarding segregation and his electoral demographics I think it's safe to assume that his demographics do not include black Americans. The tortured aspect Rand speaks of is how civil rights impacted his demographics, or one could say, white people that opposed civil rights. He also reinforces his statement on Maddow when he states, "promise of Liberty is granted to all Americans", by which he means the liberty of allowing private entities to discriminate.

He's still blowing the dog whistle.

Incidentally, Kentucky's black population is 7.7%. The national average is 12.8%.

148 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:10:42am

re: #134 Obdicut

No, I disagree with that first statement entirely, unless you own the golden gate bridge or something else of monumental importance.

Is a fifty-cent candy bar worth more than a thief trying to steal it? Would you feel you had a moral right to shoot someone who was egging your house?

Reading is fundamental.

I'm talking about someone breaking into my house to steal my stuff or threaten my family.

On a related note, I do actually own the golden gate bridge, but am willing to part with it...cheap.
//

149 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:11:09am

re: #137 Cato the Elder

I miss a lot of sarcasm, since I try to appreciate other people may have vastly different positions of mine for what they feel is valid reasons.

I think it's perfectly fine to value your own life over any amount of property-- but in many cases property is tantamount to human life. I assume that you'd give your own life to save a hypothetical irreplaceable shipment of a vaccine that would save a million lives.

At any rate, you're completely right about the actual topic, which is how we value others' lives, not ones own.

150 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:11:17am

This is hilarious....
Paul Calls Maddow Appearance ‘Mistake,’ Civil Rights ‘Settled’

Appearing on Laura Ingraham's radio show this morning, Rand Paul said he regretted his Wednesday appearance with MSNBC's Rachel Maddow, in which Paul appeared to waver on whether he thought the government was right to force the desegregation of private businesses during the Civil Rights era.

"It was a poor political decision and probably won't be happening anytime in the near future," Paul said of the Maddow appearance:

"Because, yeah, they can play things and want to say, 'Oh you believed in beating up people that were trying to sit in restaurants in the 1960s.' And that is such a ridiculous notion and something that no rational person is in favor of. [But] she went on and on about that."


lol

151 Decider  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:11:24am

Rand Paul will be ok. We are talking about Kentucky here. The only reason they would not vote for him is because he is not racist enough.

152 cliffster  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:11:55am

re: #146 Thanos

No, you seem to have anointed yourself "defender of Rand" but seem unwilling to wear the crown. No where did I ask, so don't lie.

deep breaths, Thanos

153 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:12:10am

re: #151 Decider

Rand Paul will be ok. We are talking about Kentucky here. The only reason they would not vote for him is because he is not racist enough.

Painting with the broad brushes today are we?

154 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:12:27am

re: #134 Obdicut

No, I disagree with that first statement entirely, unless you own the golden gate bridge or something else of monumental importance.

Is a fifty-cent candy bar worth more than a thief trying to steal it? Would you feel you had a moral right to shoot someone who was egging your house?

The life of a thief breaking into my house is worth exactly as much as I decide it is.

155 Randall Gross  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:12:53am

re: #152 cliffster

deep breaths, Thanos

Why? I'm fine, you seem to be misinterpreting and misreading a lot, have you had your coffee yet today?

156 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:12:55am

re: #150 Killgore Trout


UPDATE II: Just got the audio from the Ingraham appearance. Key question at 8:15:

Laura: "Would you have voted for the Civil Rights Act?"

"Yes, because I think the preponderance of the evidence was that we had some abhorrent things going on in our society—segregation, the Jim Crow laws...I think the south had failed and that the federal government did have a role in ending discrimination in all of these practices."

He spent 10 minutes last night saying he wouldn't have voted for it.

157 bluecheese  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:13:22am

re: #150 Killgore Trout

This is hilarious...
Paul Calls Maddow Appearance ‘Mistake,’ Civil Rights ‘Settled’


lol

LOL.... so it's Maddow's falt.... Eh?

That's nice.

158 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:13:25am

re: #148 rwdflynavy

Reading is fundamental.

I'm talking about someone breaking into my house to steal my stuff or threaten my family.

On a related note, I do actually own the golden gate bridge, but am willing to part with it...cheap.
//

But Rand Paul is talking about something much less clear-cut. He said that private businesses should have the right to hang up "No Blacks Allowed" signs, and should not be required to accommodate disabled people.

This has nothing to do with people stealing your property.

159 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:13:28am

Well, later folks.

160 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:13:48am

re: #140 Guanxi88

Theft by force (or robbery) is almost certainly a case of the would-be perp positing the value of the item in question as higher than that of the owener - else, there'd be no threat of violence in the crime.

Did he claim he had a moral right to shoot someone egging his house?

If you say that your property is worth more than the life of someone threatening that property, then yes, I believe that's equivalent to a right to kill someone in defense of that property.

He said:

My property is worth more than the life of someone trying to steal it or threaten me over it.

You're right that egging falls somewhere outside this, but the 'or' does, to me, clearly state that the life of a thief, no matter how petty, is worth less than the property he's trying to steal.

161 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:15:35am

re: #154 Cato the Elder

The life of a thief breaking into my house is worth exactly as much as I decide it is.

I don't think that's accurate; I think it'd be fairer to say that, given that there's an implied threat in breaking into someone else's house, you've got every right to defend your safety against that person.

If you then have that thief helpless and tied up after you've overpowered him, it'd be immoral in the extreme to decide that his life is worth nothing and execute him.

162 cliffster  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:15:37am

re: #138 Aceofwhat?

yeah, you say that...but even aside from this civil rights stuff (and that is a HUGE aside), the first solutions out of his mouth include the words "gold standard".

that's when my eyes glaze over...why do they think this guy has more economic cred than Karl Marx? i can't figure it out...

Yeah it's like you take your car to the mechanic because it's not running right, and he says, "let's rip the engine out and cut holes in the floorboard so you can poke your legs through". Whoa

163 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:16:47am

I think it's extremely telling that Rand Paul stepped right into a controversy about race and bigotry, the day after he won the primary.

164 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:17:27am

re: #159 Oh no...Sand People!

Well, later folks.

Laid her? Didn't even kiss her!

165 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:17:34am

re: #163 Charles

I think Maddow did the nation a favor by making it so explicit, as well. Hopefully people will pay attention.

166 wrenchwench  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:17:44am

re: #163 Charles

I think it's extremely telling that Rand Paul stepped right into a controversy about race and bigotry, the day after he won the primary.

FTFY

167 engineer cat  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:17:50am

let's see... enforcing anti-segregation laws in private businesses conflicts with business owners's rights... so...

civil rights violate my civil rights!

168 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:18:00am

re: #163 Charles

I think it's extremely telling that Rand Paul stepped right into a controversy about race and bigotry, the day after he won the primary.

A better politician would have at least waited until he won the general...///

169 Fozzie Bear  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:18:22am

re: #114 cliffster

Fine. Get people in office who don't drive us hopelessly into debt, and you probably won't see people like him getting elected. Or even taken seriously.

The problem you describe has much less to do with the liberal/conservative divide and much more to do with corruption in our political process than such a statement as this would imply. When campaign propaganda is funded by the very interests who would be affected by future legislation, you end up with waste and cronyism. There is enough money to build a more just and equitable society without spending ourselves into massive debt, it's just that such cannot be done by a legislature which is animated by what essentially amounts to a system of legal bribes.

For your consideration, I present the "public option": An idea that would have forced the health insurance industry to be vastly more efficient, and was barely even considered.... because creating a public option would have provided a monstrous monetary advantage for anyone who opposed it, in the form of campaign contributions. Any proposal which might piss off a large industry is not getting any traction, period. This isn't a partisan problem, no matter how much people keep repeating it. It is a problem with our political process.

170 Gus  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:19:10am

re: #150 Killgore Trout

This is hilarious...
Paul Calls Maddow Appearance ‘Mistake,’ Civil Rights ‘Settled’

lol

Yes, of course his appearance on Maddow was a mistake. Which means he walked into the most popular wingnut meme there is to be found: that the media or as the would currently say, The Lamestream Media, is the enemy. Thus the backwards thinking yokels that will defend Rand's misstatements will give no thought to what he said but instead focus on their hatred of Maddow and the so called liberal media.

171 cliffster  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:19:41am

re: #155 Thanos

Why? I'm fine, you seem to be misinterpreting and misreading a lot, have you had your coffee yet today?

You are just being an asshole, and I'm not sure why.

172 right_wing2  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:19:46am

Everyone, regardless of race, national origin, sex, skin color or whatever needs to be equal under the law. The Civil Rights Act was needed 40 years ago. Fortunately, most people in America have moved beyond judging people based on exterior appearances. Dr. King's dream of people being judged by the content of their character has, largely, been achieved.

Yes, there are racists, both left and right, out there. And they need to be marginalized as much as possible. Ridiculed, even.

But since America is far more color blind than we were, since most American accept people as human beings, with hopes, dream & aspiriations, we need to stop the government from being obsesses with race as they are. Let's not just assume that people will discriminate. Let's not look at groups of people and gerrymander districts to accomodate them.

173 bluecheese  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:19:52am

re: #163 Charles

Wasn't the newspaper interview where he stepped in it though?

174 Randall Gross  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:19:54am

OT: It gets uglier

[Link: www.npr.org...]

Oil in marshes, Oil in loop current

175 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:20:34am

re: #169 Fozzie Bear

Yep. Bluntly, the public option was not discussed partially because of the misrepresentations and scaremongering of those in the GOP, but also because Democrats were given huge amounts of contributions by the health insurance industry.

176 Randall Gross  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:20:50am

re: #171 cliffster

You are just being an asshole, and I'm not sure why.

If you consider calling someone on a lie in a public forum "being an asshole" then I guess you've just led a lily soft life friend.

177 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:21:11am

re: #172 right_wing2

How is the government obsessed with race?

178 right_wing2  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:21:21am

re: #172 right_wing2

Everyone, regardless of race, national origin, sex, skin color or whatever needs to be equal under the law. The Civil Rights Act was needed 40 years ago. Fortunately, most people in America have moved beyond judging people based on exterior appearances. Dr. King's dream of people being judged by the content of their character has, largely, been achieved.

Yes, there are racists, both left and right, out there. And they need to be marginalized as much as possible. Ridiculed, even.

But since America is far more color blind than we were, since most American accept people as human beings, with hopes, dream & aspiriations, we need to stop the government from being AS OBSESSED (corrected) with race as they are. Let's not just assume that people will discriminate. Let's not look at groups of people and gerrymander districts to accomodate them.

179 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:21:45am

re: #161 Obdicut

I don't think that's accurate; I think it'd be fairer to say that, given that there's an implied threat in breaking into someone else's house, you've got every right to defend your safety against that person.

If you then have that thief helpless and tied up after you've overpowered him, it'd be immoral in the extreme to decide that his life is worth nothing and execute him.

Of course, but if I don't feel like going to the bother of overpowering and fettering him, I can just save myself the effort and shoot him.

Once you use force to storm a man's castle (yes, I refer specifically to the "castle doctrine"), it's up to him how he responds. The use of force is itself a declaration of lawlessness and potential further violence, and if I want to cut off an arm and wait ten minutes before I call him an ambulance, ain't nobody's bizniss but mah own.

As to your property example above, the vaccine boat is one exception. Another would be if I were the warden of the guard in a town where the Vandals were headed, and an advance party came to capture all the pikes and blunderbusses. I believe I'd die for them so the townsfolk might have a chance of defending themselves.

180 cliffster  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:22:41am

re: #169 Fozzie Bear

There's a lot of good points in that post.

181 Randall Gross  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:23:30am

OT: entering the Antropocene?
[Link: www.e360.yale.edu...]

182 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:23:54am

re: #179 Cato the Elder

If you cut off his arm and wait to call an ambulance for no other reason than to make him suffer and possibly die, that is extremely immoral.

As to your property example above, the vaccine boat is one exception. Another would be if I were the warden of the guard in a town where the Vandals were headed, and an advance party came to capture all the pikes and blunderbusses. I believe I'd die for them so the townsfolk might have a chance of defending themselves.

That's a very good example. Many Americans gave their lives to prevent fuel depots from being captured during the Battle of the Bulge, thereby blunting the attack and stopping Peiper from being able to kill more than he did. Very good example.

183 wrenchwench  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:24:11am

Paul said to Maddow that he is opposed to discrimination in public housing. This is consistent with his belief that government money should not be involved in discrimination. However, discrimination in private housing is just as bad, and leads to segregated schools. He's opposed to de jure segregation, but not opposed to de facto segregation.

184 right_wing2  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:24:17am

re: #177 Obdicut

The constant use of race on virtually every issue. Gerrymandered districts to create 'safe' seats for various congressmen/women (not always race based, often just to keep congressman X in office). Minority set-asides.

185 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:25:11am

So if civil rights is "settled", does that mean he can still go after cripples in their wheelchairs and people with service dogs?

186 subsailor68  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:25:22am

re: #179 Cato the Elder

Of course, but if I don't feel like going to the bother of overpowering and fettering him, I can just save myself the effort and shoot him.

Once you use force to storm a man's castle (yes, I refer specifically to the "castle doctrine"), it's up to him how he responds. The use of force is itself a declaration of lawlessness and potential further violence, and if I want to cut off an arm and wait ten minutes before I call him an ambulance, ain't nobody's bizniss but mah own.

As to your property example above, the vaccine boat is one exception. Another would be if I were the warden of the guard in a town where the Vandals were headed, and an advance party came to capture all the pikes and blunderbusses. I believe I'd die for them so the townsfolk might have a chance of defending themselves.

Hi Cato! LOL! Another option would be to cut off both his arms and then lend him your cell phone and tell him to make the call himself.

;-)

187 Aceofwhat?  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:25:24am

"I once believed we could evolve our way up from Jim Crow. I was wrong: federal intervention was necessary.

--William Buckley.


(Suck it, Luap Dnar...)

188 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:25:47am

re: #186 subsailor68

Hi Cato! LOL! Another option would be to cut off both his arms and then lend him your cell phone and tell him to make the call himself.

;-)

Tis but a flesh wound!

189 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:26:02am

re: #184 right_wing2

Gerrymandering is not race-based, except to the extent those subgroups have voting patterns. That is not an example of the government being obsessed with race-- as you partially acknowledge.

Minority set-asides are an example of the government being concerned with equitable treatment in race. I'm not sure how that equates to an obsession.

Can you provide an example of how the government is obsessed with race, or explain how minority set-asides really are an example of that?

190 Olsonist  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:26:04am

re: #177 Obdicut

Affirmative action in government hiring and contracting and education might be what he's getting at. Prop 209 was certainly directed at this. Its point being that it is wrong to be prejudiced against and that, unless it is a specific remedy, it is wrong to be prejudiced in favor as well.

191 cliffster  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:26:22am

re: #188 Mad Al-Jaffee

Tis but a flesh wound!

come back here you yellow-bellied coward

192 Ericus58  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:26:25am

re: #116 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I once worked with a guy whose name was Mark O. Manlove

The poor poor bastard.

Attended a day long course yesterday - the Instructors name was.....

Charles "Chuck" Lust

193 Fozzie Bear  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:26:34am

re: #184 right_wing2

The constant use of race on virtually every issue. Gerrymandered districts to create 'safe' seats for various congressmen/women (not always race based, often just to keep congressman X in office). Minority set-asides.

WTF is a "minority set-aside"? This stinks of oppressed whitey syndrome. If I have it wrong, please say so, but there is alot that would seem to be implied here that you aren't directly addressing.

194 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:26:52am

re: #185 Cato the Elder

So if civil rights is "settled", does that mean he can still go after cripples in their wheelchairs and people with service dogs?

The "First Floorers"

195 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:26:55am

re: #185 Cato the Elder

That would be a good question to ask; he certainly gave the impression he'd like the ADA repealed or at least the mechanisms completely changed.

196 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:27:26am

re: #184 right_wing2

The constant use of race on virtually every issue. Gerrymandered districts to create 'safe' seats for various congressmen/women (not always race based, often just to keep congressman X in office). Minority set-asides.

Maybe that's because we live in a racist society that, left to itself, would still keep the good toilets all for the white folk?

What JBS rock did you crawl out from under?

197 Fozzie Bear  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:28:01am

re: #196 Cato the Elder

In before "post racial America" is invoked.

198 Gus  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:28:08am

re: #185 Cato the Elder

So if civil rights is "settled", does that mean he can still go after cripples in their wheelchairs and people with service dogs?

Well, Rand Paul is opposed to the American's with Disabilities Act so in light of his comments regarding lunch counters I think it's safe to assume that Rand Paul would support the right of a private business to not only have a sign that reads "No Black" but another sign that reads "No Service Dogs."

199 Aceofwhat?  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:28:18am

Heh...

Time Magazine:

PRESIDENT BUSH AND SENATOR KERRY BOTH WENT TO YALE, AND BOTH WERE MEMBERS OF SKULL AND BONES. IS AMERICAN POLITICS BECOMING MORE ELITIST?

Buckley: No. Skull and Bones is becoming less elitist.


ok, really, bbl.

200 Gus  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:29:18am

re: #198 Gus 802

Well, Rand Paul is opposed to the American's with Disabilities Act so in light of his comments regarding lunch counters I think it's safe to assume that Rand Paul would support the right of a private business to not only have a sign that reads "No Black Blacks" but another sign that reads "No Service Dogs."

PIMF

201 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:29:20am

There's more projection in here than in an IMAX theater...

202 cliffster  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:29:55am

re: #175 Obdicut

Yep. Bluntly, the public option was not discussed partially because of the misrepresentations and scaremongering of those in the GOP, but also because Democrats were given huge amounts of contributions by the health insurance industry.

I think both sides got exactly what they wanted out of the health care debate. As well as the insurance executives. And they are all hanging out together on said executives' yachts, sipping scotch and smoking cuban cigars.

203 Kragar  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:31:14am

re: #201 JasonA

There's more projection in here than in an IMAX theater...

So you're saying you never felt love as a child?

/

204 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:32:10am

re: #170 Gus 802

Yes, of course his appearance on Maddow was a mistake. Which means he walked into the most popular wingnut meme there is to be found: that the media or as the would currently say, The Lamestream Media, is the enemy. Thus the backwards thinking yokels that will defend Rand's misstatements will give no thought to what he said but instead focus on their hatred of Maddow and the so called liberal media.

It's also interesting is that he gives ingram pretty much the same weaselly and evasive answers, the only difference is that Ingram lets him get away with it.

205 Gus  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:32:29am

Ah yes. The GOP is already being forced to comment on their new baby:

Cantor: 'I Really Can't Opine' On Paul's Civil Rights Act Criticism

Cantor responded: "Not being familiar with the context of his response or his questions, I really can't opine as to his position."

206 bluecheese  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:32:44am

The newspaper wrote in their editorial that the "choices were dismal", and went on to bring up this very issue sometime ago.... Why didn't Mr Paul have an answer ready to put it to rest since that interview?

Surely he, or one of the people on his team could have known that this would come back up.....

207 darthstar  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:33:17am

re: #70 Aceofwhat?


How vote you on proposition 482, where Le Grand Paper Mill will excrete all waste into the river out back, from whence it will flow down to those asshats in the godless town of Bumpkin?

Bumpkin?

Youtube Video
208 right_wing2  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:33:25am

re: #193 Fozzie Bear

Minority set asides- contracts specifically given to minority contractors.

If a company run/owned by minorities is able to get the contract at a competitive price, then more power to them. Absolutely, 100% support them.

But to say that certain companies should be able to compete on a playing field that isn't level is the wrong way to go.

re: #189 Obdicut
You're still creating voting areas based on who they're expected to vote for. Let's just use a grid, not these weird shaped areas encompassing an area 12 miles long and 2 wide, to help one candidate or another.

Again, I support people being judged by the same standard. If you have to achieve a certain score on a test, then so should everyone else. Black. White. Asian. Hispanic. Don't set standards higher, or lower, for one group than the other groups.

209 Kragar  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:34:00am

re: #205 Gus 802

Ah yes. The GOP is already being forced to comment on their new baby:

Cantor: 'I Really Can't Opine' On Paul's Civil Rights Act Criticism

All I want is for one GOP leader to step up and say "Rand Paul is crazier than a shit house rat" or something to that effect.

Just one.

210 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:34:24am

re: #205 Gus 802

Ah yes. The GOP is already being forced to comment on their new baby:

Cantor: 'I Really Can't Opine' On Paul's Civil Rights Act Criticism

Who the hell talks like that?!?

211 darthstar  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:34:26am

re: #205 Gus 802

Ah yes. The GOP is already being forced to comment on their new baby:

Cantor: 'I Really Can't Opine' On Paul's Civil Rights Act Criticism

I can't really say anything because Reagan's 11th commandment says that, no matter how asinine someone is, I'm not allowed to criticize him for fear of offending my base.

212 Gus  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:35:19am

re: #210 JasonA

Who the hell talks like that?!?

How's that? You mean "opine"? I kind of like that. Has a lot of local flavor.

213 wrenchwench  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:35:51am

re: #211 darthstar

I can't really say anything because Reagan's 11th commandment says that, no matter how asinine someone is, I'm not allowed to criticize him for fear of offending my base.

With a .08% chance he's saying to himself, "What the hell did that guy say? That can't be right...."

214 bluecheese  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:36:11am

Cantor lies... He is well aware.

215 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:36:32am

Of course, he's a Dem. Rep. John Yarmuth (D-KY)

"Rand Paul has already embarrassed Kentuckians in the eyes of the world," Yarmouth said in a statement. "The Commonwealth deserves better because we are better - and I call on Mitch McConnell and my other colleagues in the Kentucky Congressional Delegation to join me in condemning his despicable views."

216 Dave In Austin  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:36:37am

Makes no difference, Kentucky will still elect him. Because Kentucky is for douche-bags...

217 Kragar  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:36:46am

Not really being familiar with Cantor's total lack of balls and likely being castrated, I cannot opine on his lack of testicles.

218 right_wing2  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:36:50am

re: #212 Gus 802


Opine was Sheriff Andy Taylor's boy, wasn't he?

219 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:36:53am

re: #208 right_wing2


You're still creating voting areas based on who they're expected to vote for. Let's just use a grid, not these weird shaped areas encompassing an area 12 miles long and 2 wide, to help one candidate or another.

That has nothing to do with the government being obsessed with race as I said.


Again, I support people being judged by the same standard. If you have to achieve a certain score on a test, then so should everyone else. Black. White. Asian. Hispanic. Don't set standards higher, or lower, for one group than the other groups.


Again: Can you provide an example of the government being obsessed with race?

220 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:37:10am

re: #216 Dave In Austin

Makes no difference, Kentucky will still elect him. Because Kentucky is for douche-bags...

Raylan Givens might disagree with you.

221 zora  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:37:19am

from politico

Paul articulated his view on the Civil Rights Act in an interview with the editorial board of the Louisville Courier-Journal (which called his answer (at around 1:00) "repulsive").

[Link: link.brightcove.com...]

222 Gus  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:37:25am

re: #211 darthstar

I can't really say anything because Reagan's 11th commandment says that, no matter how asinine someone is, I'm not allowed to criticize him for fear of offending my base.

They managed to raise the asinine level to a new low.

223 Varek Raith  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:38:20am

Social Conservatism + Libertarianism = LOLWHOTHEHELLAREYOUKIDDING.

224 cliffster  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:38:40am

Most dangerous sport for girls: cheerleading

225 bluecheese  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:39:05am

re: #216 Dave In Austin


I dislike blanket statements like these..

226 Olsonist  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:39:57am

re: #208 right_wing2

Minority set asides ... Don't set standards higher, or lower, for one group than the other groups.

Yes, but the greatest set aside is the United States Senate. Freaking Wyoming gets two Senators. California, with 68 times the population, gets two Senators. The system is already strongly biased in favor of conservative whites.

227 wrenchwench  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:39:57am

re: #221 zora

from politico

[Link: link.brightcove.com...]

Oh, dear. An hour? Can I come back later for the executive summary?

228 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:40:29am

re: #216 Dave In Austin

Makes no difference, Kentucky will still elect him. Because Kentucky is for douche-bags...

Eh... you're from Austin? Texas? The state with the crazy Board of Ed?

229 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:40:51am

re: #208 right_wing2

Minority set asides- contracts specifically given to minority contractors.

If a company run/owned by minorities is able to get the contract at a competitive price, then more power to them. Absolutely, 100% support them.

But to say that certain companies should be able to compete on a playing field that isn't level is the wrong way to go.

Like the playing field was level before. It was tipped so far towards the racists that you couldn't stand up on it without big white mountain boots, crampons, an ice-axe and rope.

re: #189 Obdicut
You're still creating voting areas based on who they're expected to vote for. Let's just use a grid, not these weird shaped areas encompassing an area 12 miles long and 2 wide, to help one candidate or another.

Gerrymandering is far older than you seem to understand. Blame the "perfect" constitution written by our demigod founders. They mandated that every congressional district shall have roughly the same number of constituents.

This could be solve today with accurate population date and and computer program. The result would be a patchwork of big and little squares, not a grid of equal ones. But it would perhaps break up the gerrymanders and get rid of a few safe seats. I would be for that.

230 Kragar  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:41:29am

re: #225 bluecheese

I dislike blanket statements like these..

Only the Sith deal in blanket statements.

231 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:42:00am

re: #230 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Darth Linus especially does.

232 Varek Raith  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:42:24am

re: #230 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Only the Sith deal in blanket statements.

You humans are all full of shit.
Sheesh.

233 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:42:26am

re: #230 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Only the Sith deal in blanket statements.

Are blanket statements what you get quarterly when you invest in Bed Bath & Beyond?

234 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:42:28am

re: #216 Dave In Austin

Makes no difference, Kentucky will still elect him. Because Kentucky is for douche-bags...

Someone from Texas dares to opine on another state? I shall laugh myself hernial.

235 right_wing2  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:42:48am

re: #219 Obdicut

Sorry, but IMHO, gerrymandered districts is all about race obsession.

Again, minority set asides.

We constantly look at people as this group or that group, instead of as men & women with hopes & dreams. Everything that doesn't toe the P.C. line is 'racist' or 'bigoted'. We have to look at how many of this group or that group are here, how many of this group or that group get this benefit or that benefit. We've got to have a cabinet that 'looks like America' regardless of whether a candidate is qualified for a job or not. Sure, we've had incompetent fools as cabinet members before, and probably always will. But to have as even a single criteria that a certain percentage of people holding 'important' (for lack of a better word) jobs in the White House or on Capital Hill are of a certain race smacks of pandering & condescention.

236 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:44:33am

re: #235 right_wing2

Sorry, but IMHO, gerrymandered districts is all about race obsession.

Your opinion is dead fucking wrong. Get a new one.

237 right_wing2  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:44:34am

re: #229 Cato the Elder


Well, by 'grid' I should have been more clear and said a population based grid. No, to say that every district should hold the same geographic area would be insane.

238 Obdicut  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:44:44am

re: #235 right_wing2

Sorry, but IMHO, gerrymandered districts is all about race obsession.

But you haven't done a damn thing to actually demonstrate or prove this. You're just asserting it.

Again, minority set asides.

Again: Explain how they show an obsession about race.


You definitely do seem to be quite interested in race. I wouldn't call it obsessed, though.

239 webevintage  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:45:18am

re: #130 Oh no...Sand People!

Especially Sullivan, he would be ran out for being Gay if the Paulians take over.
Does he not see that?

Sully has a problem with taking a position and then defending it way past reason.
Look at his thing with Palin's baby or Kagan's not-gayness or after reading so many heart breaking letters from women who had to have abortions and the how horrible the decision was he still seemed to be unable to understand why one would choose an abortion.
(maybe he has a woman issue?)

Speaking of abortion:

Paul’s position that he wouldn’t have voted for the Civil Rights Act is a principled stance. And that principle can be succinctly stated: property rights take precedence over human rights.

Of course those "property" rights do not extend to my rights to make decisions about what I do with what must be the most personal property of all, our bodies.

240 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:45:28am

re: #225 bluecheese

I dislike blanket statements like these..

Isn't that a blanket statement?
//

241 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:45:39am

re: #229 Cato the Elder

ΠΙΜΦ: "This could be solved today with accurate population data and and computer programs."

Nicotine withdrawal is bad for typing.

242 RadicalModerate  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:45:50am

Speaking of corrupt politicians who hang out with the Stormfront crowd, it appears that Sheriff Joe has stepped it yet again:

Letter spurs Rick Romley to warn Joe Arpaio

Sheriff Joe Arpaio has sent letters to current and former attorneys in the Maricopa County Attorney's Office warning them to watch their words if they speak to investigators looking into possible unethical conduct by former County Attorney Andrew Thomas.

The letter threatens the attorneys with criminal charges if they reveal "confidential" information about the sheriff's inquiries into county Supervisors Don Stapley and Mary Rose Wilcox and Superior Court Judge Gary Donahoe.
...
However, Romley fired off a letter to Arpaio citing case law and informing him that the relationship between the two offices is not attorney and client but law enforcement and prosecutor. Citing case law, Romley said that the County Attorney's Office "does not render legal services to the investigators."

As for the threat to file criminal charges against anyone who testifies to the Bar, Romley wrote, "This threat is not only inappropriate but is a clear abuse of your authority as sheriff of Maricopa County. Thereby, I shall be forwarding your letter" to the U.S. District Attorney's Office.

243 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:46:51am

re: #236 JasonA

Your opinion is dead fucking wrong. Get a new one.

While it's at it, it could find a new blog to preen on.

Or it gets the hose again.

244 Olsonist  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:48:01am

re: #237 right_wing2

Well, by 'grid' I should have been more clear and said a population based grid. No, to say that every district should hold the same geographic area would be insane.

Tiny (white) Vermont also has two United States Senators. It has 1/60th the population of CA.

245 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:48:24am

re: #243 Cato the Elder

While it's at it, it could find a new blog to preen on.

Or it gets the hose again.

Youtube Video
246 Fozzie Bear  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:48:26am

re: #235 right_wing2

Sorry, but IMHO, gerrymandered districts is all about race obsession.

Again, minority set asides.

We constantly look at people as this group or that group, instead of as men & women with hopes & dreams. Everything that doesn't toe the P.C. line is 'racist' or 'bigoted'. We have to look at how many of this group or that group are here, how many of this group or that group get this benefit or that benefit. We've got to have a cabinet that 'looks like America' regardless of whether a candidate is qualified for a job or not. Sure, we've had incompetent fools as cabinet members before, and probably always will. But to have as even a single criteria that a certain percentage of people holding 'important' (for lack of a better word) jobs in the White House or on Capital Hill are of a certain race smacks of pandering & condescention.

Ok, so it's oppressed white man syndrome. Got it. I don't see any obsession with race save yours. As for the genesis of gerrymandering, you are just factually incorrect. Your opinion is wrong.

Now crawl the fuck back under your rock.

247 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:52:52am

re: #244 Olsonist

Tiny (white) Vermont also has two United States Senators. It has 1/60th the population of CA.

Every state has two senators. Your point?

We're talking about House representation here.

248 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 20, 2010 10:56:42am

re: #4 Guanxi88

I'd hope so; any other explanation of so odd a moniker could only be worse.

His given name is actually Randal, 'Rand' is a short form.

Finally looked that up.

249 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 20, 2010 11:00:17am

re: #28 Stanley Sea

Well gee, Dr. Paul, that's awfully kind of you.

Have there BEEN any efforts to repeal the 64 Civil Rights Act? By people who are actually not Stormfront?

250 reidr  Thu, May 20, 2010 11:03:20am

re: #132 cliffster

You asked how Rand Paul ever got taken seriously, and I said the reason is because the government is driving our economy into the ground and Paul is saying, "hey, let's stop driving the economy into the ground". No matter how much you dislike him, that is a message that is going to resonate very strongly with people.

The economy is (was?) already in the ground, or at least it had one leg dangling in the six-foot permahole. Do you and all of the other "cut taxes, cut spending, no debt no matter what" people really think it would have been good for the economy to let GM die, let the banks die, let local, state, and federal governments lay off countless thousands? It makes sense to me for the government to spend (yes, into debt) when the economy is tanking, and pay off debt when the economy is doing well. Of course, Bush did the opposite during his good times....

251 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 20, 2010 11:06:47am

re: #89 Guanxi88

"Don" is an honorific title, clearly proving his involvement in the Sicilian Mafia.

Or that he is a theventeenth-thentury Thpanish Grandee.

(Loved Pan's Labyrinth, but their accents were really weird.)

252 Mocking Jay  Thu, May 20, 2010 11:09:07am

re: #251 SanFranciscoZionist

Or that he is a theventeenth-thentury Thpanish Grandee.

(Loved Pan's Labyrinth, but their accents were really weird.)

I could be wrong about this, but I was taught that Castilian was spoken with a lisp because one of the kings had one and it caught on.

Time for a wiki walk.

253 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, May 20, 2010 11:12:54am

re: #78 teleskiguy

I got a little chuckle from this quote from Oliver Willis. “[I]nstead of boycotting [the] bus, Rosa Parks should have been an entrepreneur and started her own bus service. let the market decide.”

Uh huh.

The market will sort things out. Competition between oil and mining companies will determine which level of safety is appropriate. Consumers will simply choose to buy gasoline from the company who has killed the fewest of its employees and devastated the smallest area of ocean, sea, wetland, coast, what have you.

254 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Thu, May 20, 2010 11:17:04am

re: #123 Guanxi88

, Attorney at Law.

There's a urologist in Austin: Dr. Dick Chopp; I kid you not.

Dr. Richard (Dick) Chopp is well known in the Austin community for performing Vasectomies.

I've encountered the names "Dick Hertz" and "Dick U. Daley". Because I'm basically 12, it's damn near impossible for me to deal with people with names like that.

255 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 20, 2010 11:19:47am

re: #186 subsailor68

Hi Cato! LOL! Another option would be to cut off both his arms and then lend him your cell phone and tell him to make the call himself.

;-)

There was a delightful story in the Jerusalem Post some years ago, where a burglar entered a home in one of the ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods on Friday night, after the Sabbath had begun. The men in the house overpowered him, and then walked him to the local payphone, where they made him deposit the coins and make the call to the police, so none of them would have to violate Shabbat.

256 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 20, 2010 11:20:17am

re: #187 Aceofwhat?

"I once believed we could evolve our way up from Jim Crow. I was wrong: federal intervention was necessary.

--William Buckley.


(Suck it, Luap Dnar...)

The difference is that Buckley actually cared if we got rid of Jim Crow.

257 steve_davis  Thu, May 20, 2010 11:20:22am

re: #7 Oh no...Sand People!

My thoughts on what libertarianism means to me.

1. Pretty much let people live and do what they want as long as it's legal and no one gets hurt.

2. Leave my money alone. I can spend it better than you can.

Am I missing something?

Yes. If a company wishes to mine upstream from the town you're in, and they dump the toxic pump water into your drinking supply, well, sucks to be you, 'cause we practice Classical Liberalism baby!! Laisezz faire, 100% of the time. Your rights end where my profits begin. Imagine HBO's Deadwood. Those folks were all libertarians.

258 subsailor68  Thu, May 20, 2010 11:23:24am

re: #255 SanFranciscoZionist

There was a delightful story in the Jerusalem Post some years ago, where a burglar entered a home in one of the ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods on Friday night, after the Sabbath had begun. The men in the house overpowered him, and then walked him to the local payphone, where they made him deposit the coins and make the call to the police, so none of them would have to violate Shabbat.

Hi SFZ! You're absolutely right - that's a delightful story. And - it's very close to a perfect description of the word "justice"!

Thanks!

259 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 20, 2010 11:24:55am

re: #252 JasonA

I could be wrong about this, but I was taught that Castilian was spoken with a lisp because one of the kings had one and it caught on.

Time for a wiki walk.

I've heard that as well...no idea if it's a true story. Mexicans, I would like to comment, speak normal Spanish, and don't sound as though they have speech impediments unless they actually have speech impediments.

260 steve_davis  Thu, May 20, 2010 11:35:19am

re: #259 SanFranciscoZionist

I've heard that as well...no idea if it's a true story. Mexicans, I would like to comment, speak normal Spanish, and don't sound as though they have speech impediments unless they actually have speech impediments.

I mentioned once in a class that I'd had a professor ask us to choose at the beginning of introductory Spanish, "whether we wished to learn Spanish so that we would say 'zapato,' or 'thapato.'" Castellian sounds funny, even to beginning Spanish speakers who still panic sometimes and say "Aloha" instead of "Hola." :-)

261 lamb chop  Thu, May 20, 2010 11:37:39am

I'm a lil late on this... but I'm wondering how the so-cons (which seem to make up a great deal of the Bagger™ movement) will react to the when they find out the libertarian view on subjects like LGBT rights and the Weed......

262 pharmmajor  Thu, May 20, 2010 11:50:16am

It's because of LINOs (Libertarians in Name Only) like Ron and Rand Paul, Glenn Beck and Bill Maher that our party gets such a bad rap. Fuck them all.

263 wrenchwench  Thu, May 20, 2010 11:51:13am

re: #261 lamb chop

I'm a lil late on this... but I'm wondering how the so-cons (which seem to make up a great deal of the Bagger™ movement) will react to the when they find out the libertarian view on subjects like LGBT rights and the Weed...

Those aren't the Libertarian views that Rand Paul holds, so it won't be a problem.

264 Joanne  Thu, May 20, 2010 11:52:11am

I read Atlas Shrugged when I was 36 and thought it an interesting fictional novel. Not once did I consider it a political ideology (I'd have laughed through its 1500 pages had I done so).

We know how he feels about personal rights of abortion (about as anti-Libertarian as one could imagine, IMHO). What about mine safety? OSHA? Poison from China in pet food, toothpaste and kids toys? Toxins via industrial waste in our aquifers? What role does government play in its citizens' safety v. corporations ability to make a profit by using said poisons? Whose liberties are more at risk...individual citizens or corporate citizens? What happens when one harms the other? Which takes precedence?

265 Liberal Classic  Thu, May 20, 2010 12:38:06pm
This isn’t libertarianism, it’s far right John Birch Society-influenced paranoia masquerading as libertarianism. And it’s fooling a lot of people who ought to know better.

Thank you. That's all I have to say.

266 Fozzie Bear  Thu, May 20, 2010 12:45:40pm

re: #263 wrenchwench

Those aren't the Libertarian views that Rand Paul holds, so it won't be a problem.

It is, however, fair to note, repeatedly, that property rights and civil rights can and often do come into direct conflict. A totally "free" society cannot be a just one.

This is a point I think fair to criticize libertarians about. Actual libertarians, I mean.

267 wrenchwench  Thu, May 20, 2010 1:44:11pm

re: #166 wrenchwench

FTFY

Oops, no I didn't.

/where did Wednesday go?


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